# BIT (bug in tractors)



## k10macosta

I know its not really a vehicle and its not in the bugout category either but it fit the most here. Has anyone got their tractors ready or considered using tractors in a SHTF situation? I figured my farmall could always help us out. It has a sickle bar, a bucket, a snow plow, a set of discs, a PTO tiller, and a post hole digger. I upgrade the hydraulic pump to 1200psi also. If something were to happen it could really help out and I guess if you need to clear road ways it could lead the charge. Im just curious if anyone else has big tractor ideas or plans on using them for something. Here's a couple pictures!


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## swjohnsey

My dream BIT is a John Deere 530, last of the Poppin Johnys.


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## k10macosta

swjohnsey said:


> My dream BIT is a John Deere 530, last of the Poppin Johnys.


Great tractors, my dream is to get my super H motor out from under my pile of hydraulic cylinders and rebuild it and put it in my current H. haha but right now im working on a JD 140, 110, and 318. its like a tractor graveyard at my house.


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## Tirediron

JD 820 (the real one not the little german one) JD AR (2) oliver 88 they work now , are simple to maintain have the same electronic components as a boulder.


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## cowboyhermit

Old tractors, either gas or diesel are emp proof, easy to work on and extremely durable and versatile. In fact even diesels made in the 70's and 80's had no or minimal electronics that were necessary.


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## bacpacker

My early 70's Duetz 3006 fills the bill very nicely.


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## cowboyhermit

Those old duetz had some pretty good engines, aircooled simplified things a bit.


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## Gravlore

Dare not say what I own. Might turn into a pissin match on how shitty it is.


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## k10macosta

Gravlore said:


> Dare not say what I own. Might turn into a pissin match on how shitty it is.


its alright when I cut some yards im not taking a good JD so I have a little yard machine hahha. it weighs like 200lbs and I beat the hell out of it and it runs but for how much longer I don't know but it got it for free so if it go it goes


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## cowboyhermit

We have a w6, more than one actually, but we still use it around the farm. Great for running an auger or pulling a wagon, lots of uses. To most people that old belt drive is useless but you never know, there is still a lot of belt drive machinery kicking around up here, not being used. We have a couple old buzz saws that work great off the belt, mind you safety is ultra important if you go that route.
Our old W6 gas will start with two cranks max (manually) in -40 our much newer diesels are not so happy.


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## k10macosta

cowboyhermit said:


> We have a w6, more than one actually, but we still use it around the farm. Great for running an auger or pulling a wagon, lots of uses. To most people that old belt drive is useless but you never know, there is still a lot of belt drive machinery kicking around up here, not being used. We have a couple old buzz saws that work great off the belt, mind you safety is ultra important if you go that route.
> Our old W6 gas will start with two cranks max (manually) in -40 our much newer diesels are not so happy.


my dads buddy loves old diesel tractors but when I gets cold out he has to sit in the cold and warm the manifolds up with a torch for 5 minutes to vaporize the fuel to get something happening lol I live off of historic rt. 40 and once a year we have pike days and its in celebration of the road. at the end of it is the steam and gas show and its like tractor heaven and everyone shows off their belts with their machinery. it has a full saw mill run by 3 w6's belt driven and 1 farmall super h pto driven, its something to see. this all is 5 minutes away from my house by car, 45 minutes by farmall lol


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## OHprepper

well, we have a 49 ford 8N on our farm that has been here forever. it was grandpa's. it has a belt pulley system that we use to run a buzzsaw thats about 24 inches across. we built a rack on the back of the tractor to cut up anything not worth running through the log splitter. but it will also run a lathe we have.


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## cowboyhermit

It is crazy how many of those buzzsaws are still around, the key is simplicity I think. Basically just a couple bearings and a saw blade that can make thousands and thousands of cuts without wearing out 
I looked on youtube but couldn't find anything close to what they are capable of when hooked up to a tractor, people stalling them out on little sticks  belts flapping, makes me wish I was more into putting videos online. Anyways a 12 inch log should take only a second or two to slice if it is running properly.


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## k0xxx

Ours are a pair of '39 Ford 9N's. They have Model T engines, and I have stocked plenty of spare parts like points, plugs condensers, distributor, carb, etc. Both have Sherman step up transmissions and fairly decent on fuel. They are not very powerful though, and cannot lift as much with the hitch as other tractors, but they are incredibly reliable.

If needed I have a set of WWII vintage iron rear wheels, so flats wouldn't be an issue. Hook a trailer to it, and we're ready to go into town. If needed, we could cover some decent distances (it'd be tough to drive long distances with the iron tires over pavement though...).

Here's the wife on one of them.


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## OHprepper

koxxx, that is a beautiful tractor. 8N's and 9N's are where its at if you ask me. i can still get parts pretty cheap, they are easy to work on, and for a small operation, they do everything i need them to. i figure it ran my grandpas farm back in the day, it would be a perfect SHTF tractor. and i use it for everything now.....


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## Tirediron

OHprepper said:


> koxxx, that is a beautiful tractor. 8N's and 9N's are where its at if you ask me. i can still get parts pretty cheap, they are easy to work on, and for a small operation, they do everything i need them to. i figure it ran my grandpas farm back in the day, it would be a perfect SHTF tractor. and i use it for everything now.....


the NAA model that followed the 8n was a very nice little tractor too, they (the"little"fords) are so handy, versitile and easy to operate. I don't really think that there is a modern small tractor that is as effective.


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## bacpacker

cowboyhermit said:


> Those old duetz had some pretty good engines, aircooled simplified things a bit.


Yeah the aircooled part is great. I just need a good supply of fan belts. I had one break and didn't catch it right away. I looked down at the temp gauge and saw ALL RED. I bout crapped my pants. But shut it down and let it cool off while I put a new belt on it. Started it back up and it had started showing a little green and within 10 minutes at idle it had cooled back down to normal. No harm no foul. Simplicity is a good thing.

Some other stuff to consider is spare fuel, oil, hydraulic filters, plenty of fluids, tire plugs. Spare injectors, any hoses you use.

This is a great thread, I just hate to see all the pissing contest. Any tractor whatever make or model is going to be hugely more valuable than none at all.:scratch


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## eddy_dvyvan

cowboyhermit said:


> Those old duetz had some pretty good engines, aircooled simplified things a bit.


And they sound awsome


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## Grape Ape

I have a little 52 Ford 8N that I restored a few years back. It has done everything I needed it to do around my place so I am comfortable saying if TSHTF it will continue to do what needs done. It has always started within about 3-4 revolutions of the motor. and will run all day without complaint. Well it is small and I am big so the seat to steering wheel clearance isn't what it could be but hey it will do more with me balled up in the seat than I can do by hand so I like it. It helps keep me fat and happy.

Here is a picture of it on it's first trip out of the barn after it's restoration. The fender was rusted to bad to reuse and I wouldn't put a china made one on so it was left of. I still had to paint the lettering in also. I have since found some old Made in merica fenders for it and they have their own little spot in the barn. Maybe when all the rest of my projects are done I will finish the tractor until then I will just keep on using it.


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## OHprepper

yourf oil bath filter is set up a little different than mine. thats the only difference i can see between them. that is a beautiful tractor.. mine isnt restored that well... but she runs like a champ. oh, and i installed headlights on mine.


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## cowboyhermit

Oil bath air filters, that means one less part to need to stock


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## Grape Ape

OHprepper said:


> yourf oil bath filter is set up a little different than mine. thats the only difference i can see between them. that is a beautiful tractor.. mine isnt restored that well... but she runs like a champ. oh, and i installed headlights on mine.


She is beautiful at low resolution and fuzzy. In real life she is still beat and bent. The sheetmetal isn't that great but as mentioned instead of going with china made replacements I kept her all original. I removed all the rust and painted it beating the parts straighter than they were. I did find all the proper stickers for her at Tractor Supply. Used my extensive amount of electrical wire I had laying around to rewire her.

As for the oil bath air cleaner, does yours have the jar dust air filter before the oil bath filter? I have thought about trying to source on for mine. I also need to get some lights, the tool box and would love to have a set of original tools that came with them.

I keep my eyes open. And while working down in Florida found a little shop on the side of a busy city street that had a few beautifully restored 8Ns in there and a lot of parts. I got 2 original fenders in very good condition for $100 plus got a chance to visit with an older gentleman who knew them inside out and loved talking about them.

I will probably do some touch ups on it this summer and maybe try to find the pieces I am missing. It has turned out to be a good old tractor.


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## LincTex

bacpacker said:


> This is a great thread, I just hate to see all the pissing contest. Any tractor whatever make or model is going to be hugely more valuable than none at all.


That about sums it up. Even an old David Bradley "walking tractor" is better than nothing at all!

Post SHTF, you can use a tractor to dig up people's gardens, hopefully in trade of some food or maybe fuel... or anything else you might need. Can also pull wagons, etc.



Grape Ape said:


> does yours have the jar dust air filter before the oil bath filter? I have thought about trying to source on for mine.


A person can extend the life of any air filter by adding a pre-cleaner of sorts. Even with that Farmall H, if you wrap a couple layers of window screen around the air inlet cap you will keep all kinds of larger crud from getting in the oil. Women's nylon stockings slipped over the cap will also do wonders for keeping large particles out, extending the life of your air filter. This also works for lawnmowers and such as well.


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## bacpacker

My grandpa had one of those old DB walkin tractor. That thing worked amazingly well. I don't have a clue what ever happened to it.


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## LincTex

bacpacker said:


> My grandpa had one of those old DB walkin tractor. That thing worked amazingly well.


Ours was too slow. It had a little Continental 2HP engine that had to run about 4000 RPM to get good plowing speed. I adapted all the attachments to work on a Cub Cadet instead. Still have all of it.


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## Jason

As I've said before, we farm over 200 acres. We have a Farmall H, M, 656 diesel, 806 diesel, and a 2006 John Deere 6403 with cab, heat, air conditioning, 4x4, and a loader with quick tach material bucket, bale spear, and pallet forks. Every tractor has its place and yes, we need them all. 

This thread should be a vast wealth of information for people looking to garden on a larger scale or farm some crops and it's turned into one of the biggest pissing contests on the forum. I'm ashamed of this fact.

Who cares what tractor is "better" than another?  A person will buy what they want to buy, and should be able to come here for information, not a bunch of puffed up machismo.

I'm done now. I know this is an older thread but I just reread some of it and got all spun up again.


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## LincTex

Jason said:


> This thread should be a vast wealth of information for people looking to garden on a larger scale or farm some crops and it's turned into one of the biggest pissing contests on the forum.


Incorrect... it WAS. Past tense. It shouldn't threaten anyone anymore.

I find it interesting that we had nearly the same tractors as you have when I was growing up.
Smallest to largest:

Allis "C" - hated the damn thing.
H, M - loved them. I miss the M dearly.
560 - very versatile.
TD-9 .... now, if you find one, Snag it! Holy cow, they are useful. I don't know who made the blade attachment on ours, but my Grandpa ordered the special wide cleat tracks (18"??). That engine made torque from hell!

806 D - about 15,000 hours on it. T/A is shot and has been for 20 years.

Lots and lots of larger 6 cylinder 130+HP diesel IH's I won't list. We farmed 1600 acres.

Now.... BACK on topic!!!!   :laugh:

One tractor I miss (I sold it for $4500 to buy a wedding ring - DOH!!!) is a Yanmar built John Deere 850 with a Brantley loader. It only holds 5-6 gallons(?) or so of fuel (I suppose... I never did hit empty!) and I filled it once a year, literally. How cow, those little three cylinder Japanese diesels are miserly with fuel!!!!! If you had a big enough hill to roll it down (to start), you would never need a battery, ever. You can till an acre on less than a gallon. If you had a 55 gallon drum of fuel stored, you can work an acre of land for 55 years.

No fooling.

I have since picked up a 70's YM2000 for scrap price... piston ring lands were shattered(!!) from too much ether use. (dangerous stuff). I have all the parts to reassemble it. This one is only 2 cylinders but they are also very torquey and cheap on fuel.


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## Jason

Right now the H isn't running and I plan to restore it as soon as time allows. We use the M a good bit but the left rear rim rotted through and I need to replace it. I have a new rim painted and ready to go...just need to get it to the tire shop to switch the tire to the other rim. The 656 is getting water in the hydraulic oil and we could never figure out how, but the other day I noticed the O rings on the dipstick are bad and I think it's just rainwater seeping in around the dipstick. The 806 is truly a brute. I love that tractor. Ours is a 1966 that my dad and grandpap bought in 1976, the year I was born.

The Deere is wonderful. The A/C is nice, but the heat in winter is truly incredible. The Deere has a lot of electronics and it's just not built as heavy as the old tractors were. That said, I expect to get years out of it, too.

I've never had a 560 but I'd love to. I think they have such a neat look. And I believe it's the same engine as a 656-the diesel is a 282 6 cylinder.


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## Tirediron

If anyone is looking for fairly indepth older tractor discussion 
http://antiquetractorsforum.com/ 
Lots of knowledgeable members there, most are collectors or are using them. (just to note the server for that forum crashed not long ago so many of the very long time member have recent join dates.


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## jeremiyah

Hook up a flatbed or hay wagon and you can go to town & do the entire neighborhoods shopping for a gallon or two of gas.
yes, great vehicle for SHTF.


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## HamiltonFelix

Just get a 1938 Minneapolis Moline UDLX and you have it covered.


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## LincTex

HamiltonFelix said:


> Just get a 1938 Minneapolis Moline UDLX and you have it covered.


I have been to a lot of tractor shows over the years, and have yet to see one in person! but I have seen a LOT of homemade tractors that would function about the same.


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## Jason

There was a mint condition Comfortractor at the Westmoreland County Fair a few years ago. It was impressive. Tires will be a bitch to get, post-SHTF but other than that it's a fine idea.


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## sailaway

Love my 8N,:2thumb: Best thing about tractors is there are no titles or liscence plates in my state.:2thumb:


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## Tirediron

Our Deere 820 is floating hay fields today, tomorrow we plan to use the AR on the post pounder, and the oliver with the farmhand F10 loader moved a round bale of hay to the manger , so ours are every day tractors too.


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## machinist

On our last homestead, we had a Massey 65 with the Continental gas engine. It did just fine for what we needed on 45 acres, but we sold that farm and the tractor.

On just a one acre lot now, we farm the heck out of it with a couple 1980 Case garden tractors. They are tough little brutes, and were still going along just great, but this winter I tore them both down and did some major maintenance. Maybe not a complete restoration, but close to it. Got a shed full of implements to work our 3 big garden patches with them. Here's the 448 going with the rototiller on it, chewing up the winter wheat cover crop in the middle garden. Once it was tilled about 4" deep, I went through with the plow and turned all that under. That makes for a weed free seedbed.



This one has an 18 HP Onan engine, and does a great job on our tiny place with the steep hillsides where it would be really tough to maneuver a bigger machine. These tractors have a unique hydraulic drive system: a hydr. pump on the engine run everything through a valve to power the hydr. drive motor and also the 3 point hitch. It has hydraulic outlets on the rear that power the tiller, or a log splitter, etc. I made a small lift boom for the 3 point hitch and have used it to move a lot of heavy stuff, plus pull some Tee posts and such like. It's as handy as a pocket on a shirt.

Also have a 446 with the 16 HP Onan and either one will pull a 12" Brinly plow, a 42" disk, or pull around various implements at our farm repair shop. It is NOT a full size tractor by any stretch, but is just fine for our "doomstead".


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## Jason

"Doomstead"...I like that. So all the implements on those little cases are hydraulic drive? That's pretty cool. My one uncle had an old Case like these; I'm not sure of the model number. It would date from the early 80's. He ran it until there was absolutely nothing left of it. All he ever had on it was a mower deck but it was kind of unique in that the grass came out of the rear center of the deck so it was winrowed for a grass sweeper to pick up.


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## machinist

Jason,

There is also a mechanical clutch on the front of the engine that drives the mower decks with a belt. The same rig is used to power a snow blower. Hydraulic drive was used on a grass and leaf bagger machine, and on certain belly mowers, and a rare 4 foot sickle mower, too.

There is a belly mounted hydraulic lift for the mowers, and it also powers a rear lift (Sleeve hitch/Brinly style) on models without the 3 point hitch (which has its' own cylinder).

My 446 has the sleeve hitch, and the 448 has the 3 pt.. I have several implements that use the sleeve hitch, and there is an adapter for those on the 3 point hitch, so any tool fits either tractor except the tiller only works on the 448 with rear hydraulics.

I can plow and disk 3 gardens, each 30' X 90' in about 2 1/2 hours, making 2 passes with the disk for a good seed bed. That is a lot of stopping and turning around, so on a larger area, it would go in half the time. They plow a 12" swath at about 2 to 3 MPH. and disk 3 1/2 feet wide at that speed. It would be easy enough to work a couple acres with them each year.

Here's a video clip of one plowing, as seen from the John Deere following it. Garden tractors this size can do some serious work, at least enough to feed a family.


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## Jason

That's really cool, machinist. Thanks for posting the video. I've never seen those little tractors doing that kind of stuff. 

Last year we got a brand new 54" deck Cub Cadet from Home Depot. It's a good strong tractor but it has safety switches (I call them idiot switches) all over it and it's already had to have the deck drive belt replaced. I bet those older garden tractors will be running for years after mine is an ornament in a junk pile somewhere.


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## UncleJoe

Jason said:


> but it has safety switches (I call them idiot switches) all over it


The first thing I do with a newly acquired lawn tractor is bypass the "idiot switch" on the seat. :sssh:


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## machinist

Yeah, my tractors were 33 years old an still going when I decided they deserved some real attention. They should be good for another 10 years at least, probably 20. 

I know my small tractors are a bit off topic here, but I thought it was important to point out the idea of matching the size of your equipment to the size of the task.

I don't know of any true garden tractors being made now like the old ones in the video. What is now called a "Lawn Tractor" is designed only for mowing and light towing, and we have Compact, and "Sub-Compact" Utility Tractors, like the smallest Kubotas and such. They can be very useful, but are quite expensive. That's why most people opt for an old tractor of a larger size. I did that years ago on our small farm. At that time, there were a few early Japanese diesels around, and small American made tractors with Jap diesel engines in them, but they cost on the order of $10K back in 1980, so I bought an old 56 HP Massey "65" model WITH a plow, a disk, a grader blade, and a lift boom for $1,200!!! 

The prices are higher now, but the relationship is much the same. The old farm tractors in this thread are a heckuva deal--capability for the $$ spent. The drawback is that you have to be willing to do the repairs and maintenance they require, but if so, you are money ahead.


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## Jason

UncleJoe said:


> The first thing I do with a newly acquired lawn tractor is bypass the "idiot switch" on the seat. :sssh:


I need to do that. Just haven't gotten to it yet. Even if you adjust your weight from one side of the seat to the other to go up or across a hill the damn deck shuts off. Makes me so mad.


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## Jason

I don't think you could be much more _on_ topic, Machinist, for the exact reason you said-matching your tractor to your land and the tractor's intended purpose. Thank you for presenting a whole new angle to this thread.


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## machinist

FWIW, here are some good garden tractor sites to learn from.

http://gardentractortalk.com/

http://www.casecoltingersoll.com/forum/index.php

http://www.simpletractors.com/

http://www.mytractorforum.com/

http://www.tractorforum.com/f273/

Have fun with those! LOTS of info out there now. You can research Craigslist for your area, and eBay to get an idea what prices are for various machines. And, there are the tractor shows where you can get a first hand look at a wide variety of tractors of ALL sizes.


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## LincTex

machinist said:


> The old farm tractors in this thread are a heckuva deal--capability for the $$ spent.


I bought a 1949 Farmall C... with cultivators(and working hydraulics)... and fenders(!) ... runs, uses no oil.

Paid $300


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## Tirediron

Nice score, is the C the small offset farmall?


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## machinist

The off set IH was the Cub, designed for cultivating so you could see the row between the front cultivators.

The C was a "tricycle" (there may have been a wide front variant) tractor designed to pull two 12" plows and do general farm work. It had roughly 18 or 19 HP at 1400 RPM.






The C began production in 1948, and like most of that era had a simple drawbar for pulling implements. Some had a hydraulic lift, but not a 3 point hitch on the original model. Later, some conversions to 3 point hitch were available as aftermarket items, but were costly. The tractors worked just fine the way they were built, though.

Large diameter rear wheels give excellent traction and the high profile allows good visibility of the work. That is a LOT of tractor for 300 bucks!


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## LincTex

Actually, both the Cub and the A (and Super A) were offset engine (to the left).

The B had the engine in the center, but the driver was offset to the right!

The C put it all in the middle, like a miniature H or M.

Cub had a little 60 cube flathead (about 9-10HP rated, but very torquey) that runs so smooth you can't hear it run from 10 feet away. Lots of accessories were available for Cubs, and they still get good prices since so many people want them, mainly suburban or near-urban rural folks with a couple of acres to mow. Later ones had hydraulics added.

The A and the B had smaller back tires (9x24) but shared the same 113 cube OHV engine as the first C's (later Super C's got 123 cubes). The B was discontinued in 1948 to make way for the C. Very few of these ever had loaders on them, most attachments are mowers or plows.

Even at 113 cubes, the tractor is overpowered IMHO. My regular C is bone stock, 113 cubes with (3" bore) and I can get wheelspin in tough plowing even with an extra 300lbs of wheel weights added! (and my fat 250 lb butt holding the seat down). I turned a new piece of stainless exhaust pipe all blue and brown breaking sod ground with it this spring.

My C had no air in all 4 tires and was missing the air filter. I paid $300 as it sat. The guy had actually got it to run a little, but it would only idle. The weird part about that is a wasp nest had filled the entire intake manifold. At idle there was enough vacuum to pull air-fuel mix through the paper, but if you opened the throttle all vacuum through the carb would disappear and the engine quit. I scratched my head for a LONG time before I found out what was wrong with it!



machinist said:


> Some had a hydraulic lift, but not a 3 point hitch on the original model.


All of the C's I have seen have the hydraulic "pack" under the gas tank, with a live pump under the distributor...(Also later A's but none of the B's). I think it's only about 3 gpm, so its pretty slow. Better than nothing. I don't know of an upgrade pump (except maybe from a 240?).



machinist said:


> The tractors worked just fine the way they were built, though.


A lot of guys swap in 3.125 or 3.25 pistons and sleeves (for 123 cubes or 134 cubes) and immediately either get a lot more wheel spin (if pulling something too large) or transmission problems. The "Super" C has some trans parts that are a little stronger. I have a set of 3.25 pistons/sleeves that are going in it so I can run my "Hammer King" off the thing. That and a little "governor tweaking" to get the RPM's up to where their big brother run at, and a C will hit 28HP pretty easily.



machinist said:


> That is a LOT of tractor for 300 bucks!


Yes, it is! I found another one (for parts) on craigslist for $175 that coughed up some decent tires but not much else. The sweet thing is the fenders are worth the $300, as well as the cultivator (actually a bit more than 300).

Fuel economy is actually pretty good, even with about 6:1 compression ratio. Torque is very strong, close to .8 ft lb per cube or better.

The Farmall H is extremely common in Texas. It's nothing to find one that runs good and has decent tires for under $700.


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## BillT

I have a '59 John Deere 435 with a 2-53 Detroit Diesel that I have thought of many of times being able to operate when other computerized vehicles won't. The biggest problem would be Fuel. I've been working on preparing in general, but haven't materialized a plan for Fuel Storage yet. The tractor goes a long way on a gallon of fuel and I usually only keep a 5 Gallon jug at most as extra. 

Bill


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## LincTex

BillT said:


> Deere 435 with a 2-53 Detroit Diesel .... The biggest problem would be Fuel. I've been working on preparing in general, but haven't materialized a plan for Fuel Storage yet.


Diesel stores easily for years. The real beauty of the Detroit is the cam operated fuel injectors, which will handle used motor oil with very little difficulty. As long as it is filtered well, start your Detroit on diesel and let warm up, then switch to used motor oil. Switch back to diesel and let it run through before shutdown and you'll never have problems. A 2-53 will handle straight used motor oil, but I always thought it best to at least mix in 10-20% diesel and it really thins the oil out a lot, and is easier on the fuel pump.

The best, (if you can get a good source), is used ATF and hydraulic fluid, since it is already much thinner than used motor oil, and has less junk that needs to be filtered out of it.


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## LincTex

This clean, straight H with nice tires is calling to me bad.... what the wife would say, though!

http://waco.craigslist.org/grd/3807348196.html


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## northfarmer

Kind of important to argue over what tractor is best.

I farm 4500 acres and have been around alot of tractors of all sizes and models.

IMO,if you need something for homesteading thing and want to accomplish a real amount of work a john deere 4440 is 
one of the best tractors EVER made period end of story.


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## Tirediron

northfarmer said:


> Kind of important to argue over what tractor is best.
> 
> I farm 4500 acres and have been around alot of tractors of all sizes and models.
> 
> IMO,if you need something for homesteading thing and want to accomplish a real amount of work a john deere 4440 is
> one of the best tractors EVER made period end of story.


nice piece of iron, but you can't pull start a powershift or quad range (for after SHTF)


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## cowboyhermit

northfarmer, your post is a bit confusing to me. I farm as well and we have everything from little antique farm tractors to the 4 wheel drives. IMO, they all have their uses and no particular size of tractor is better.

4440 are great tractors, that whole "iron horse" range for that matter. 4430 (and other "30" series) is not significantly different, just a bit older. I am not a fan of their full powershift but the syncro or quad range are great.

However in terms of most people and "Homesteading" that kind of tractor is a bit much. The original idea of homesteading was one or two quarters, usually not all of it worked, but now-a-days most people are homesteading with much less. But even for a quarter or a half a 125-150hp tractor is more than needed realistically. Not that it wouldn't work but most people have a limited budget and for their money something in the 100hp and under range makes a lot more sense.

I would put the 4020 up there as one of the best tractors ever made and it is capable of running the vast majority of pto machines made, a modern full size round baler for instance. In good shape and with a proper loader they are capable of picking up and moving a ton or so. Sure it can't pull as much in the field but most "homesteaders" will not be pulling more than 15ft of cultivator or similar. Just to put it in simpler terms a 100 hp tractor is going to be able to work somewhere around 10 acres and hour, so to work a quarter would be only two days with no overtime.

ETA; Tirediron, for maximum productivity I really like the quad-range, or newer powershifts. But for reliability and all around use the Syncro-range is my all time favorite(and you can pull start them), it was still available in the "30" series like 4430's but rare. The only problem was trying to explain it to anyone who never drove one


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## Jason

Tirediron said:


> nice piece of iron, but you can't pull start a powershift or quad range (for after SHTF)


We have the same issue with our Farmall 806.


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## Tirediron

Jason said:


> We have the same issue with our Farmall 806.


how about a spring starter?? 
http://www.springstarter.com/page.asp?PageID=8&ManufacturerID=19

You have to click around a bit to find out all of the propaganda, but apparently they are pretty popular


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## JustCliff

I have a 53 Ford Jubilee and a MF 265. The ford has sat for a couple of years I really have been thinking about getting it going again. I was considering buying a Yanmar 2000. They are going for about $5900. Then I thought about how much I could do to my little Ford for half that money.
I am making a two wheel walking tractor like a David Bradley. Making it out of a Bolens 1050 rear axel and frame. I have another 1050 that I need a engine pulley for. I could get it up and going. Those little garden tractors of the 60's and 70's are well built tough machines. They can do quite a bit of work like plowing and disking a garden spot.


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## LincTex

cowboyhermit said:


> northfarmer, your post is a bit confusing to me... in terms of most people and "Homesteading" that kind of tractor is a bit much. The original idea of homesteading was one or two quarters, usually not all of it worked, but now-a-days most people are homesteading with much less... a 100 hp tractor is going to be able to work somewhere around 10 acres and hour, so to work a quarter would be only two days with no overtime.


No fooling. 
As much as I like them, I think even something as small as a 3010/3020 Deere is overkill for "homesteading" use. Even something like a 1020/1520/1530 would be serious Cadillac style for the majority of homesteaders. Owning a 4430/4440/4450 would mean you need to be selling a fair bit off of your land to justify owning something that large. A 6601 pull-type would be a great match.

The more I look, the more I see great deals. One dude in Texas is selling a whole lot of 5 Farmall H's for 2 grand. Judging from what I see you could easily make two good running tractors from the 5, with a heap of parts left over. I don't even look "that hard", and I see good tractor deals still coming along regularly.


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## LincTex

JustCliff said:


> I was considering buying a Yanmar 2000. They are going for about $5900.


http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f21/biodiesel-not-after-shtf-19460/#post257932



LincTex said:


> The little Yanmar YM2000 has all the fun stuff, even a 3 speed PTO for different tilling conditions, but needs its starter. I have never tried to pull start it, but it would not be impossible to do because it is all mechanical.
> 
> Not one of these tractors I paid more than $500 for.


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## northfarmer

"gee i wish i had bought a smaller tractor"-does not come out a farmers mouth very much

The only rational argument is cost and fuel consumption.

Pull starting?what the hell are you worried about?

If the world doesnt go completly to shit a few extra horses to get jobs done,and run any real piece of farming equipment,will be worth it.

The 4020's are good but realistically they are getting out their in timeline,and are not remotly comparable to a 4440.

Just my opinion.


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## LincTex

Comparing Apples to Oranges, North Farmer. 

99% of the folks on this forum have no need for anything over about 30-40 HP. They are looking to feed their family and a couple other folks, max. 

Just my opinion.


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## Tirediron

well one thing for sure the cab on a 40 or even 30 series john deere was a decade ahead of everyone elses for a long time. a simple grid crash will make getting things like say batteries and other parts next to impossible. so the simpler the better.


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## cowboyhermit

Yeah, the soundguard cabs were top notch for their time, however one of the only problems we had with those ranges of tractor was the a/c, spent a decent amount of money but ended up having to charge it every spring anyways. Let me tell you, those cabs suck without a/c, especially with a powershift transmission smokin' hot under your feet.

4020 with a cab is not even in the same ballpark comfort wise, and I wouldn't let anyone drive it without hearing protection, but it has a decent fan and a syncro-range transmission so even in the summer and without a/c it is decent. Personally I like a 4020 without a cab the best.

I can see making an argument for a bigger tractor for a few reasons. 
One is being able to handle standard sized loads with the front end loader. If you can handle full sized bales etc. then it opens more possibilities and may save you money.
Another is being able to handle a larger portion of modern machinery, especially using the pto, like a full size round baler, that sort of thing.
The thing is most of these can be accomplished with 100hp and under.

For the most part the only thing going over that will get you is being able to pull more feet behind you during tillage, and possibly grabbing another gear or two. Like I said before this is only going to account for a few hours in a "homesteading" scenario. In the real world, I have baled with a 4020 and a 4440 and there was very little difference in productivity, speed was limited more by the field than the tractor. With the 4440 you can grab a gear and reduce your rpm to keep your fuel consumption near the smaller tractor but then your pto is turning slower and tying takes longer:dunno: 
A larger tractor will also cost more to maintain, oil, filters, etc (a 4430 takes around 17quarts of engine oil). Doesn't fit into as small of spaces, harder to trailer, harder to work on, etc.
All of this is well worth it in many circumstances, I no longer pull a round baler with 100hp for several reasons but I am making thousands of bales and it is not "homesteading".

With regards to pull starting, people on here are looking at worst case scenarios. I have seen many starters fail in my time, and ring-gears for that matter, and I have pull started machines more times than I can count on my fingers. All of this without TSHTF.


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## LincTex

It's all about SCALE. You ain't gonna change a tire on a 4440 with a 4 ton jack. You probably don't buy oil by quart or gallon jugs either. And you won't park it in a two stall garage.

Going back to the original intent of this thread, a 4440 just isn't a "Bug In Tractor" (LOL, for what that's worth) and owning and operating one means stepping up your entire shop and all your equipment by several magnitudes larger. It's not just owning the tractor, it's owning all the "support and logistics" that go along with owning it.

*You have to draw the line somewhere.* 
I am no longer a full time farmer, and farm/garden just a few acres. I also need to keep my trailer at my house (trailer thefts are high in Texas) so that means no big goosenecks or low-boys, and I sure as hell don't need a truck any bigger than my F-250.

Scale, scale, scale.

The two biggest tractors I have are the Farmall H and the 2404 Industrial (with FEL) and those are really about the largest size of tractor I enjoy pulling around on a plain ol' 16 foot tandem axle bumper pull (tongue hitch) flatbed. If I go any bigger on the tractors, I need a bigger shop, a bigger truck and a bigger trailer. Since NONE of those are going to happen ANY time soon at all, I have to draw the line somewhere, and I did.

Now, you have guys like Machinist who have Onan-powered Case-Ingersoll 446 and 448 style Garden Tractors (which are built stout like "real" tractors) and only farm/garden an acre (or two). The line of scale there is a half ton truck (or even a smaller truck like a Ranger, Dakota or S-10) and a small utility trailer.

If I had a good quality garden tractor, a Ford Ranger and a 5x8 utility trailer - I would bet set to produce food for my family (trailer not needed if garden is at homesite) and it all fits in a simple garage. Moving up to the next level means changing everything you own to support that size level.

I am biased - - I personally think that anyone who produces their own food on any level needs some form of powered tillage equipment. I mean, I can do a 30x30 foot garden plot by hand, but it sucks without a rototiller (yes, I am soft!). I cringe at the thought of raising a couple acres worth of food by hand/human power only. It isn't impossible, but it wouldn't be pleasant.


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## Jason

Well said, LincTex. Good points all around.


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## JustCliff

Well...I think i am going to go with one of these Yanmar 2000's. I think with a 2 row corn planter and a 4 or 5 foot seed drill I should be able to do a decent amount of grains and beans for my family and have some to barter. Now just to find a small seed drill that wont cost an arm and leg. The John Deere 71 2 row planter is going to be around $1500 any way I look at it.


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## LincTex

I wouldn't spend the coin on a bonafide tractor planter unless you plan to grow at least 5 acres of corn. There are a lot of alternatives, we used to plant a 1/4 acre of sweetcorn by hand, and a half acre of milling corn with an antique human-powered corn planter that I don't remember ever seeing a name on. We would dig the rows with a Cub Cadet. This would be the modern equivalent, and should make planting an acre of corn an easy partial day affair: http://www.ruralking.com/earthway-precision-walk-behind-garden-seeder-1001b.html ($89 free ship). Additional seed plate kit is $22

Northern sells this one: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200418176 for $699 (I want one just' cuz it's kewl!!), but I still wouldn't get it unless doing several acres. I would rather hire someone to do the planting than spend $700..... of course, it would be a really neat winter project as well. I'll bet if I look it over for 15 minutes I could copy it.

For grain drills, my Grandpa's old 6 foot "pony Drill" is now owned by my cousin in South Dakota. I wish I could find another on like it. For now, when planting grain I'll just broadcast the seed and harrow it in. See here: http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f35/one-acer-homestead-18351/index5.html

The YM2000 is about as bulletproof as a tractor can get, very fuel efficient, lots of power, and they are far more stout than they need to be. Be sure to look around and check prices so you don't over-pay.

Oh yeah... I sold my 8-row Deere planter (70's model, steel seed boxes not plastic: rectangular, not round) at a farm auction for $600. Find something similar and chop it down!!


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## UncleJoe

LincTex said:


> IThis would be the modern equivalent, and should make planting an acre of corn an easy partial day affair: http://www.ruralking.com/earthway-precision-walk-behind-garden-seeder-1001b.html ($89 free ship). Additional seed plate kit is $22


I have have 2 of these units. I got the first one off craigslist for $60 It only had the corn plate. The second one was at an estate sale. It came with 8-10 plates and went for $25. I've only ever used it for sweet corn (about 2500sf.) and it saved me a boatload of time as compared to seeding that much by hand, which I used to do.

But to the main reason for this post.

Nearly two years ago I acquired a 9N. I traded 3 hours of my time for it. Some rather severe storms blew through our area bringing down trees and tearing the deck off the house of a woman I'm acquainted with. I cleaned up the mess and asked her if she would trade me the tractor for my services. She readily agreed. It was her husband's and she was tired of looking at an "old lawn ornament." She said it is a 1939 but I checked the serial number and it's actually a '41'. It turned over but wouldn't start so I took a chance on it. Circumstances however, prevented me from getting it home. It's here now.

The first thing I did was rebuild the carb then it sat. Last weekend I finally brought it home. I changed out the electrical components (plugs, points, etc). It started up and ran for a few seconds then stalled. I did this 3-4 times till I noticed a fuel leak near the sediment bowl. The line had a rather substantial split, so I figured it was sucking in air along with fuel. Ran to the local parts store, got a new compression fitting, cut the bad part out of the line and put it back together. No more leak but now it won't start at all.

The glass sediment bowl had a lot of chips around the seal so I went to get a new one and found that you can't easily buy just the bowl, so I got the entire set up; valve, bowl, gasket and the do-dad that holds the bowl in place. I only replaced the gasket and bowl. The bowl had fuel showing but didn't seem to be moving through. Still won't start. Pulled the carb off again this morning to check the float level. It was good. Pulled the bowl off and opened the valve; nothing. I was a bit leery taking the entire assembly off the fuel tank since it is 70+ years old but didn't have much choice. It came right off without a hitch. Put the new one on, hooked up the lines and started cranking. Turned over 6-7 times till I thought...CHOKE. Pulled the choke lever and it fired right up. 

Now keep in mind this is all new to me. I put it in gear, after I figured out which lever was the clutch,  and off I went. I was in first gear with the idle pretty low. I came up around the house to show AuntJoe, disengaged the clutch and was caught off guard when it didn't stop moving like the lawn tractor with the clutch and break in the same pedal.  I almost hit my truck. Went back out to the shed and noticed anti-freeze dripping out on to the ground. It appears that the top hose is leaking so I'll order top and bottom hoses tomorrow.

It has a lighter duty loader on it with a manure bucket and forks and it appears to be original. I know it works because while I was cranking it over the forks started lifting. Apparently the PTO was engaged. I figured out which lever controlled it and shut it off.

The hood and fenders are solid and are in fairly good shape. Plenty of dings, a few small dents and some surface rust but overall, for being 70 years old, well, it's aged very well.

I have no plans to restore it to showroom quality. What I will do though is strip and repaint the fenders, hood and grill and power wash the frame/drivetrain assembly. The grill is actually done and I've started on a fender. I won't be trying to get all the dings out. I just want it to look a little nicer. It was built to work and that's what it will be doing. 
The back wheels are really shot so I'm just going to replace them. I got a quote of $110 each. The only thing keeping air in the RR tire is the valve cap. I couldn't get air in the tire so I drilled out the valve itself to fill it then quickly put the cap on. It's been holding now for 8 days.

So as of now I have 3 hours invested for the initial acquisition, about 3 hours of tinkering, $60 for a battery $40 for electrical parts and $15 for the sediment bowl unit.

I'm a happy camper. artydance:

Here are a few pics.


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## Jason

NICE, Joe!!! You're going to have a full heart and an empty wallet, now that you have the tractor bug. You'll wonder how you got along without it. If you're going to be monkeying around with the rear wheels/tires anyway, you might think of having them filled with fluid. Usually it's water with calcium added but that's real hard on metal if a valve stem leaks or whatever. Makes rust form real quick. There's another fluid now but it's pretty expensive. The added ballast of the liquid makes a big difference.

And I know you have a good head for mechanical stuff, but BE CAREFUL! Stuff might not work right and guards around moving parts may be missing.

Have fun, man. You're gonna love it.

Oh, what did you name it?


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## cowboyhermit

They are using antifreeze as ballast, we have always had calcium chloride which is ok as long as it's in a tube that doesn't leak ever
But they use the non-toxic stuff that is more pricy than plain old green poison.


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## Tirediron

Nice little tractor, I noticed that the rubber "boot" is missing off of the shifter, so you might want to replace that, it keeps water out of the transmission, you should probably make sure that there isn't water in the trans oil already, if you loosen the drain plug a little after the tractor has sat for a while sometimes the water will settle out and you can drain it that way, with the plug just loos enough for straight water to flow past the threads, the flow will stop when the oil gets there.


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## Bobbb

I tapped into the NSA spy satellite feeds and found this pic of Uncle Joe on his new tractor.


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## UncleJoe

I'm being framed! I don't own a suit that color.



Tirediron said:


> Nice little tractor, I noticed that the rubber "boot" is missing off of the shifter


Thanks TI. I never would have thought of that. That's just the way I got it. I'll check on a boot when I order the hoses.


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## Tirediron

Bobbb said:


> I tapped into the NSA spy satellite feeds and found this pic of Uncle Joe on his new tractor.


I don't know Bobbb that Fordson pilot looks a lot like your avatar sans the mustache


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## UncleJoe

Just in case your Bug-In turns into a Bug-Out.


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## Tirediron

During hay baling, the power shaft clutch went out on the JD 820, John Deere wanted over $2000.00 for the clutch pack and a few springs and gaskets, I ended up buying the clutch pack from Stiener tractor parts ( http://www.steinertractor.com/) for a lot less, About $500.00, the little things like seals gaskets and springs were pretty cheap from JD (I could have made the gaskets from gasket paper and sourced the seals cheaper, but time is money.) I found a crack in the output housing (cast iron) that I will have to weld.

14# of clutch disks can stop your baling process now, it would be a real mess after SHTF. I never even thought to check the PTO clutch adjustment, it always worked, if I had I would have noticed the excessive wear. :brickwall:


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## crabapple

I have a 8 horse tiller & 8n tractor that was my Fathers.
My brother, 10 acres away has a 6000?!!?!! Ford tractor.
We have 10 attachments & I have a 16' disk & a 12' turn plow that no one I know can use & only a few can move.
Those where my Father in laws & left on my wife's land so now, they are mine/ours, they look almost new.
They are to big for our tractor.
I have two horse pull hay mower & one, horse pull hay rake, a few wagons.
Lots of hand tools,saws,axes,hoes,rakes,shovels, pole hole diggers, a small push seeder,a small push plow & a wife.
Well that about it for me.


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## LincTex

crabapple said:


> We have 10 attachments & I have a 16' disk & a 12' turn plow .... left on my wife's land so now, they are mine/ours, they look almost new. They are too big for our tractor.


Sell what you can't use, and use the money to buy something you can use


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