# Alternative Antibiotics



## crosscanadian

My kids are at home sick today with Strep Throat. That got me thinking, what if we were in a bug out situation and somebody came down with something that they needed antibiotics to treat? Are there any substitutes for antibiotics?


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## Backwoods

All About Homoeopathy you always wanted to know...

I've been reading about Homoeopathic medicine for awhile now. IMO antibiotics are nowadays WAY over prescribed by doctors and if taken for every little sickness you will build up a tolerance to them and your body will not learn how to fight off simple illness.


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## Lester_7

I agree with that. Not every little infection needs an antibiotic.


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## kdnxdr

*I have a suggestion:*

You might want to do some research on Colloidal Silver.

During the Y2K "event", I did purchase some and have used it periodically. I did have a small abrasion that was not healing up. I used the neosporin and other such topicals but it was starting to worry me......thinking it was possibly Mersa(sp?), I used the colloidal silver and it healed right up. I do have an interesting little scar to remind me that it's always best to be proactive and not always depend on the doctors.

kid


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## monolith224

I just want to point out that homeopathy does not work. It has killed many people.


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## The_Blob

This is from the Health Freedom Foundation Alerts
Mobilization Alert: Defending Nano Silver
General's Communiqué: Change.org Update
Dr. Rima's Recommendation: Silver for Health

____________________________________________________

Mobilization Alert

"Final Attack Has Started. 
If it Succeeds, the Pandemic Will Follow"

Action Item
CODEX Action Alert

EPA CONSIDERING CALLING NANO SILVER A "PESTICIDE" - BAN IT UNLESS WE ACT BY JAN 20th

"Those 'internationalists' who want to see humanity culled by the 'inevitable' pandemic about which we at Natural Solutions Foundation have raised the alarm these past months cannot succeed so long as a general immune system support nutrient exists around which dangerous pathogens cannot mutate. So long as we have a nutritional defense to the pandemic UN and other authorities tell us will happen 'soon', we now doubt it will actually take place as quickly as forecast.

That protective nutrient is nano silver, in the presence of which none of the naturally deadly or even weaponized pathogens can survive. So it was to be expected that major attacks on silver would predate the actual start of the pandemic. Years ago the Food and Drug Administration, the FDA, forbade any health claims about silver (through our Health Freedom Action eAlerts we have, however, made millions of people aware of the protective benefits of silver). And now the Environmental "Protection" Agency, the EPA, weighs in with potentially devastating regulations of topical uses (see docket EPA-HQ-OPP-2008-0650).

Yes, that 'final' attack has started and if successful - if nutrient and topical silver are removed from the market - you can be sure the pandemic will soon follow."

Click here(Defending Nano Silver) to learn more.

Click here(CODEX Action Alert) to take action.

Now tell your entire circle of influence about this, email them this Health Freedom Action eAlert with a line or two of your own at the top asking them to take action and then forward it to their circle of influence to do the same, and so on. Time is short. The issue is enormous and the outcome of this campaign might mean the difference between life and death - a whole lot of death.

Sadly, when the Natural Solutions Foundation's Ralph Fucetola alerted a group of silver manufacturers, health freedom activists and silver advocates to this danger, of which they were previously unaware, they responded that there was no problem since only TOPICAL Nano Silver was under attack! We presume that they have never heard the homily of the camel's nose under the nomad's tent. We regard their comfort level as ill-advised, naive and, in fact, down right foolish.

We are taking on this Defense of Nano Silver Action and we know that you will want to help keep Nano Silver on the market both because of your right to have what every health products and strategies available to you that you choose (Freedom) and for the very pragmatic reason that Nano Silver could, literally, save your life (Health).

Nano Silver recently saved the lives of two Panamanian friends whose conventional medical care was not touching the serious infections from which they were so desperately ill.

We need to respond vigorously to this threat to our freedom and our lives. Taking this tool away from us makes us easier to control - or kill - with manufactured and natural dangers like drugs or the weaponized Avian Flu strain and Avian Flu vaccines, for example. To send your comments to the EPA, click here: CODEX Action Alert

Are we strong enough to stop Big Pharma on this one? I believe so: we must mobilize your community of influence to do so, and mobilize it quickly!


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## resqdoc

+1000 to Monolith...

*Topical* silver is an excellent anti-infective and is well proven to be of benefit. 'Nano-silver' is colloidal silver with a new buzz name. Over 200 US environmental groups have petitioned the FDA to stop OTC silver products, as it has been showing up in waste water treatment plants and killing off the good bacteria that are part of the natural waste treatment process. I would hate to see this & would rather find a way to stop the shedding of silver down the drain. Note the same problem can develop in individual septic tanks.

*Ingested* silver has no proven clinical efficacy. Anecdotal suggests it does suggest good results for some, but since there are no controlled studies worth fly crap about it, no one really knows. 'I used it and got better' means less than nothing.

There are considerably more than 2 cases of silver intoxication in the literature. If you are going to take silver internally I suggest you be sure of what you are getting, use it for acute illness and not daily wellness, and discontinue if you experience digestive upset or other warning signs.


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## mona

Maintaining a healthy body is your best defense against illness. Eatting plenty of fruits and vegetables (organic if pausable) with a limited amount of protien, add nuts, grains and dairy to round out your diet.

Stay off of the processed foods that are offered in grocery stores and restaraunts (as much as possible).

I use hot lemon and honey when I have a sore throat. I use a mixture of warm water and salt for a nasal rinse with a sinus infection. I use hot sauce in water to loosen up a head cold or mild head ach. If it is an advanced head cold (but not sinus infection) I rub a drop of peppermint oil in my palms and breath it into my sinus. Have a bath towl available (you'll need it). I use manzanita tea for the stomach flu. Epsem salts in a warm bath for sore musles.

I try to stay as nature as possible.


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## RonnieGret

mona said:


> I use hot sauce in water to loosen up a head cold or mild head ach.


You do what now?


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## mandiex4

In the past when a family member didn't have any money, they took fish antibiotics. They worked just fine. I know, I know, lol....but..... Anyway, they come just like ours, in pill form. All kinds....


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## shirls

I too have thought long and hard about antibiotics...if we cant get them. Honey has antibiotics in it if used as a cream and also if taken orally. only in small amounts though, also garlic is an antibiotic and nasturuim leaves and flowers. These are a few things I have read from books, I always get a repeat on my prescription if I ever need antibiotics and have a few packets in my survial kit, That they dont last forever I know, but if someone is desperatly in need, i would try it as a last resort. Also there are a few sites on the net that sell anti biotic??/ I have never but thought about it as i said they go out of date and I always write on my spare packet what I had taken them for and what they can be used for. Any one else any ideas?


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## Canadian

I'd talk to your doctor about having him write you a script that you can use at any time. Just keep it aside and have it filled when you need it. These days you can email or fax a script directly to the pharmacy. Drugs do have an expiry date and are very expensive. It'd be a big waste to have hundreds of dollars worth of drugs sit there and expire after one year.


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## UncleJoe

mandiex4 said:


> In the past when a family member didn't have any money, they took fish antibiotics. They worked just fine. I know, I know, lol....but..... Anyway, they come just like ours, in pill form. All kinds....


I was going to keep this to myself but after reading this post I decided to share mine as well. 
Terramycin. A livestock anti-B. Our horse vet will never admit to it but she told us it will work for human bacterial infections if there is no way of getting anything else. We always have a bag (6oz powder) around. We certainly aren't going skip a visit to the Doc because we have it, but in a worse case scenario where absolutely nothing else is available, I'm sure we would. Might have to make a dosage adjustment for human weights though.


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## shirls

Sorry Canadian, I was only talking two boxes...$20.00. Over here Aus..you can t get a script over the phone or email, have to see a doc in person, and they wouldnt give you a stand by in anycase unless you were really sick. Last year I got pnemonia, only slightly, but that got me worried about how one would deal with that in the last case senario, if you know what I mean, .
Yeah I had heard about fish antibotics, apparently you can buy them over the counter...not that I have, spose they have an expiry date too.. Horse ones yeah they sound good....Ps I never use the stuff unless im desperate, just if you were wondering, but when you have kids.........Its good to know you can fix them if you have too.....


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## mandiex4

UncleJoe said:


> I was going to keep this to myself but after reading this post I decided to share mine as well.
> Terramycin. A livestock anti-B. Our horse vet will never admit to it but she told us it will work for human bacterial infections if there is no way of getting anything else. We always have a bag (6oz powder) around. We certainly aren't going skip a visit to the Doc because we have it, but in a worse case scenario where absolutely nothing else is available, I'm sure we would. Might have to make a dosage adjustment for human weights though.


LOL, I wasn't going to say it either but, we have used Terramycin in the past when times were hard and we had it on hand. We have a vet friend and we were basically told the same thing.......


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## Canadian

Just out of curiosity have you guys even bothered asking your doctor to just write you a prescription? Is this some kind of American thing? Is it because you don't have free health care like us? I just ask my doctor and he'll write me a script for anything reasonable. Do you really have to resort to using animal stuff on humans? People have to be at least somewhat reasonable in other countries. 

In my experience if you just ask you usually get what you want. If someone says no you just ask again. If they say no again you ask again in a different way and throw in a "come on man help me out." That usually works. Someone has to say yes at some point.


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## UncleJoe

I hate to admit it but yes that is a problem here. Unless the doc can diagnose a problem he/she cannot legally write a prescription. My wife's skin doc was arrested, tried and convicted of illegally writing scrips without having all the proper paperwork to go with them about 2 years ago. She lost her licence and is currently serving an 18 month sentence. 
Back in 1992 I had pneumonia and I knew it. I called my regular family doctor who I'd been seeing for nearly 7 years. I asked him to write me a script for amoxicillin. His response : "Sorry Joe, you'll have to come in and see me first." I went in the next day, he listened to my chest, took a couple of x-rays and sent me to the pharmacy with a piece of paper with his name on it. 
So to answer your question - no - at least not from my personal experience.


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## Mac

I am a US Navy Corpsman stationed at a Marine Base. From my very limited experience, prevention is is the best cure for all aliments. Simple things like washing your hands thouroughly and often could mean the difference between life and death in a rough spot. Good nutrition, clean drinking water, keeping the sick seperated from the healthy. Things like these could go a long way. These days with our almost instant access to medical care, not applying these methods are not as life threating. But in a situation where you might not have medical care close at hand, a primary concern would be keeping your family healthy.




“The best medicine on any battlefield is fire superiority”


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## Canadian

I used to work at a hospital and on the first day we were all cautioned about hand washing. We all washed our hands all day long except for one guy. He got a paer cut on his finger and didn't wash his hands at all. By then end of the day he was in surgery and they had to amputate his finger. 

Ever since then I always wash my hands.


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## Expeditioner

On often overlooked part of prevention is sound oral hygiene. Brushing, flossing and rinsing with an mouthwash/rinse is essential to staying healthy.


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## Canadian

I like me teeth. I also like my dentist. She's incredibly hot. I always brush just to please her.


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## Expeditioner

LOL, my dentist likes to dress up as Gene Simmons from KISS.


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## Canadian

During dentistry or after hours?


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## Expeditioner

Canadian said:


> During dentistry or after hours?


Both. It freaked me out the first time she did it. She had the scrubs on over her costume.


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## Canadian

If it's a "she" that puts a totally different twist on things. Maybe I'll ask my dentist to put something on other than her normal scrubs? On second thought the tooth cleaning would probably be uncomfortable after being slapped across the face.


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## 604joe

For Alternative cancer treatments, tooth abscess/infections, yeast/etc, intestinal track toxicity's causing strain on kidneys & lymphatic system. Stops Fatigue by counteracting the acidic effects of sugar & protein breakdown.. I supplement a liter of water with a teaspoon of potassium bicarbonate usp, order through me or possibly your pharmacist, 500g for $25 and this is a purified combo of the 2 main alkaline minerals, the body's main electrolytes.

It works to stop acid's very quickly, and works well with ongoing dosage, to swing the pH throughout the body. Most people have acidosis because there's no bulk source of those minerals since we don't drink spring water from the Earth anymore. 

This mineral also lowers blood pressure, and prevents muscle pain during and after athletic endurance.

email or contact me for advanced consulting


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## EvilTOJ

Canadian said:


> I used to work at a hospital and on the first day we were all cautioned about hand washing. We all washed our hands all day long except for one guy. He got a paer cut on his finger and didn't wash his hands at all. By then end of the day he was in surgery and they had to amputate his finger.
> 
> Ever since then I always wash my hands.


Wow, what a load of crap. Gangrene doesn't even kick in until at least 48 hours after onset of infection. And by then the wound would be pus filled and weeping way before then.


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## Canadian

It wasn't gangrene.


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## pills

what was it? I have never heard of anything this severe.


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## Magus

Expeditioner said:


> LOL, my dentist likes to dress up as Gene Simmons from KISS.


Mine was a Marine.those suckers come out in one tug!


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## Canadian

A female marine?


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## shirls

could you or would you pull a tooth with no injection, and no antibiotics, Tom hanks did it with an ice skate in movie.........Castaway.


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## Canadian

If it was hurting enough... Yeah why not?


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## Practical Madman

monolith224 said:


> I just want to point out that homeopathy does not work. It has killed many people.


Homeopathy works better than modern medicine. Anyone that died from it would have died quicker from mod. med. Doctors are only taught to treat the symptoms. They do not know how to keep you healthy. They are trained in med schools supported by the Rockefellers, from books comissioned by the Rockefellers, and write prescriptions to drugs from the Rockefeller owned drug companies.

Do not believe the BS about the life expectancy having increased. It has actually decreased. Infertility is outrageous and increasing. The mod. meds. will kill you!


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## mrghostwalker

mandiex4 said:


> LOL, I wasn't going to say it either but, we have used Terramycin in the past when times were hard and we had it on hand. We have a vet friend and we were basically told the same thing.......


Good to know for SHTF. What would the dosage be for a human?


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## UncleJoe

It comes in powdered form. On the package are directions for mixing it with water to make various strengths. Without digging it out, I can't give you specifics but if you consider a 1000lb horse and a 200lb person, it's just simple math to figure it out.


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## bunkerbob

Here are some of the antibiotics I keep on hand in the refer, vacuum packed. Along with "Do-It-Yourself Medicine" and "Survivalist Medicine Chest" by Ragnar Benson. Both will help in diagnosing and treatment in a emergency.
Most of these can be easily be found at most pet or fish supply stores. They have expiration dates and have same potency as human drugs.


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## gamom

I've been using homeopathics and colloidal silver (orally I might add) with absolutely excellent results. Due to something my exsisinlaw was putting our family through, I decided to always have my children diagnosed by their pediatrician, and to go in daily (free nurse's visits) using my own alternative treatments so the doc could keep a detailed record of their health and recovery as he knew I did not do modern medicine unless the alternative remedies weren't working. Through this he has become a believer in "alternative" medicines/approaches now. The two major things CS helped with in absolute record time was impetigo (topically applied - gone in 24 hrs) and rotovirus (completely recovered in 3 days - taken orally only). There are other smaller things in which we recovered within a day that normally took us 3-7 days to recover from previously.

As a note, there is only one brand I will buy (of Colloidal Siliver) as it is the only one in small enough particles in the right concentration. I tried other brands and they did jack diddly squat taken orally and only sometimes worked topically. But this brand works for us 100% of the time.

I believe in a healthy body and herbally support our immune systems. I have gotten to where I normally use herbal remedies and only use the CS when we're really sick now. I just think it's better to build up the immune system rather than to rely on one thing all the time. I like to use lots of garlic, vit c, thyme, licorice, elder berry, anise, etc.

I'll just be glad for the day where I finally have my medical degree and don't have to take the children in to the doctor since I'll be the doctor! Oh and just because I believe heavily in alternative medicines doesn't mean that I don't believe modern medicine doesn't have its place ... it does, just not for every little thing.

I'm still learning about a lot of things ~ especially dentistry.


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## mrghostwalker

bunkerbob said:


> Here are some of the antibiotics I keep on hand in the refer, vacuum packed. Along with "Do-It-Yourself Medicine" and "Survivalist Medicine Chest" by Ragnar Benson. Both will help in diagnosing and treatment in a emergency.
> Most of these can be easily be found at most pet or fish supply stores. They have expiration dates and have same potency as human drugs.


Great info on the Maracyn. Any websites have info on usage and dosage?


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## pdx210

i think most of this thread is sound advice natural medicine is useful however it's not effective on everything I know someone that lost his hearing in one ear because they tried to treat an ear infection with natural medicine. If i'm invited to a knife fight i'll bring an Uzi i'm that kind of person.

i agree that modern medicine treats the symptoms but not the cause yet many diseases have been cured, halted or kept in check with moder medicine.. such as polio and some common causes of death 1893-1907 are rare today such as

Abscess, Appendicitis, Asthma, Cholera, Cold(yes people died fro the common cold) Congestion, Diabetes, Diarrhea, Diphtheria, Dysentery

Causes of Death in the Late 19th Century


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## TomChemEngineer

I have a nice little card that shows common ailments and the specific antibiotics that take care of these ailments, as well as a compilation of common antibiotics that should be in your case and the usual dosages. The extended Medical Kit should have both the card as well as a selection of antibiotics ... depending on how long you expect to be away from the regular pharmacy and how many people will be using your medical kit indicates how many courses of each antibiotic that needs to be in your bag. If you are worried about antibiotics going bad, you can give them to a charitable agency before they expire, take the deduction, then refill your stores with fresh antibiotics. I do occasional non-profit work overseas, and am never without a Medical Kit with antibiotics. Sourcing is not that difficult.


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## Norse

Are any of the Forum Members here Doctors? THAT WOULD BE A GREAT HELP TO HAVE A DOCTOR or pharmaceutical chemist on board!


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## Lake Windsong

*Book titles*



bunkerbob said:


> Here are some of the antibiotics I keep on hand in the refer, vacuum packed. Along with "Do-It-Yourself Medicine" and "Survivalist Medicine Chest" by Ragnar Benson. Both will help in diagnosing and treatment in a emergency.
> Most of these can be easily be found at most pet or fish supply stores. They have expiration dates and have same potency as human drugs.


Thanks for the info, can you tell me which book you think is better; do they compliment each other as a set, or repeat each other? Just curious, going to look them up but thought I'd ask your opinion of them also.


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## bunkerbob

Lake Windsong said:


> Thanks for the info, can you tell me which book you think is better; do they compliment each other as a set, or repeat each other? Just curious, going to look them up but thought I'd ask your opinion of them also.


They compliment each other, one covers little about all aspects of treatment and where to obtain some drugs, the other smaller an abbreviated version for the first aid kit.


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## mdprepper

Just curious, is the Maracyn a close relative of penicillin? I am severly allergic to penicillin and would have to try to find a different alternative.


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## bunkerbob

mdprepper said:


> Just curious, is the Maracyn a close relative of penicillin? I am severly allergic to penicillin and would have to try to find a different alternative.


This is a link that may answer your question... Mardel 01120 Maracyn Freshwater Compounded Broad-Spectrum Antibiotic - Fish Remedies

And just remember it is up to you to decide whether to use this or not.

This is not intended for human use as stated on product.


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## NaeKid

Norse said:


> Are any of the Forum Members here Doctors? THAT WOULD BE A GREAT HELP TO HAVE A DOCTOR or pharmaceutical chemist on board!


I believe we have a nurse on board as well as several EMT's - of course - we also have a wide-range of members with different FirstAid skills.


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## twolilfishies

colloidal silver people! Look it UP!
doctors are great for western medicine which involves pharmaceuticals galore but how is that going to help when the SHTF ? For real?!
Eastern medicine is where all the smarts are!
They rely on the earth and its natural remedies .. 
There wont be very many pharmaceutical companies around if something catastrophic happens...and if there are still drugs they wont be accessed fairly thats for sure.
Colloidal silver is a natural antibiotic and works very effectively.
Naturopathic medicine is worth following closely!
please excuse my spelling i have children on my knee


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## TechAdmin

I have pretty horrible metal allergies so I would have to die. 

I have friends that swear by the stuff though.


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## pdx210

twolilfishies said:


> please excuse my spelling i have children on my knee


I think colloidal silver will cure that 

speaking of silver a silver dollar in your water supply stops bacteria and mold growth and keeps water fresh.


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## TechAdmin

pdx210 said:


> I think colloidal silver will cure that
> 
> speaking of silver a silver dollar in your water supply stops bacteria and mold growth and keeps water fresh.


I did not know that.


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## AlterCow

*Colloidal Silver Works*

I have to chime in on the usage of colloidal silver. It definately works. I have used colloids for the last 10 years. I was at one time in the natural supplement business for over 4 years and while in the business I approached many products with sold with skepticism, but an eagerness to learn their pros and cons. After much research and trial and error usage of silver colloids I have found a few brands that work extremely well, but nothing has been more rewarding than making my own colloidal silver. The quality on some generators can be dialed in (as far as PPM). I currently own a system from Colloidal Silver Generator by SilverGen utilizing CONSTANT CURRENT technology. (no affiliation other than a satisfied customer).

To the nay-sayers of colloidal silver usage their stance is usually an academic one. They have done their share of research to where they are comfortable enough to vehemently tout their negative position on the usage of silver colloids, but more than likely have no empirical evidence to support their opinion. Yes, people can suffer from Agyria (blue-man syndrom or silver toxicity), but this is caused by using silver chloride. What's the difference between a pure colloidal silver and silver chloride? The quality of water used in making the suspension.

If you are to make or buy premade silver colloids do not do so with any additional minerals (or preservatives) within the water. What happens is when the electrolysis is created to suspend silver molecules within the water the silver can aglommerate. They attach themselves to the particulates within the water or to other silver molecules. In the case of tap water, mineral water, or water that has had salt added or other impurities in the mix one will find the suspension creates an inferior product. This can be seen in most cases as the suspension turns yellow to bown tint (one wants their silver colloids clear, yet if you use a laser pointer and beam it through the liquid you can see light refracting off the silver suspension).

The problem with silver salts or aglommerated silver is it cannot pass through the cell walls efficiently, thus people have a build up of silver within the body. This can cause Agyria. Is it reversable? Yes, and there are many other ways to detoxify the body's cells to relieve ones build up of metals. (The salt drink SOLE is one, but this is not an antibiotic substitute. It is a great way to detoxify the blood and alkalize the body)

If you are going to make your own silver suspension do not go for a cheap 9v battery relay for this creates an inconsistant current. With that current one gets all sorts of particle sizes and efficacy is hit or miss. Plus, it will aglommerate. Some people use some of the cheapest instruments to make their silver suspension, not to mention they will say you can use ANY kind of water. Malarkey. Use a high quality, 0ppm distilled water to get the best product. Youtube is rife with people using cheap battery relays and even some poor quality water (one person whom is selling his cheapo generators for $100 also has used toilet water to prove "a point" that you can use any water. Really, use distilled, not toilet water )

Also, if one does even the smallest amount of research they will find that silver colloids were used prior to the discovery of antibiotics. The reason it fell from favor in modern medicine is linked to pharmaceutical companies and their private interest of using their product over a product that was cheap and easy to come by in the early 20th century.

As was stated before, you can put a .999 pure silver coin into various liquids that spoil, like milk, and it gives it longevity. My great-grandmother used to do this on her farm sans refridgeration. Silver kills all known pathogens and bacteria. Use it topically, internally, or even put it in a spray bottle and go to town on sterilizing surfaces: get the stink out of bedding, couches, shoes, your pet's coat, your own coat, etc...

Here is an excellent, no BS resource on silver colloids. 
Amazon.com: Colloidal Silver Medical Uses, Toxicology & Manufacture (9781884979088): John W Hill: Books


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## pdx210

I have a silver generator colloidal silver works well for topical abrasions and burns i wouldn't rely on it for serious infection


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## mdprepper

:threadbump:


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## HLorfing

*Which is best*

So which company produces the best product.


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## FreeNihilist

Getting to know your local plant life is invaluable in cases like this. Many plants are useful as antibiotics. A mild antibiotic I use personally are plaintain family plants such as Common Plantain (Plantago major) and Ribbed Plantain (Plantago lanceolata). Both are extremely common to my locale and I make a basic ointment from them for external cuts and scrapes like herbal neosporin and I made tea for the leaves for internal issues or eat the leaves themselves even.

They grow very widely across the world and are found most places that dandelions are, in my experience.

There is a wealth of valuable herbs and medicines found even in ones own backyard or woodlands.


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## *Andi

I just made a batch of Plantain ointment ... my first ... and so far I'm happy with it.

I have used it on a few small cuts and the like. My son jumped a little when I put it on a cut on his foot (and gave me a dirty look), I was not sure if it was from the cut or the ointment ... but the cut looked better the next day.

Time will tell and I will see.


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## FreeNihilist

*Andi said:


> I just made a batch of Plantain ointment ... my first ... and so far I'm happy with it.
> 
> I have used it on a few small cuts and the like. My son jumped a little when I put it on a cut on his foot (and gave me a dirty look), I was not sure if it was from the cut or the ointment ... but the cut looked better the next day.
> 
> Time will tell and I will see.


I've had great experiences with it and if it doesnt work as well as you'd like you can always try to increase the concentration of the herbs in many different ways in the ointment (there are multiple options) as it is a very safe herb. I grew up with this herb growing heavily around the garden and house and have developed a love of this plant.

A must have book is the Herbal Medicine Makers Handbook by James Green. It doesnt give dosages and recipes precisely but has great ideas and explains all the different preparation methods and delivery methods. If you havent read it, of course.


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## *Andi

FreeNihilist said:


> I've had great experiences with it and if it doesnt work as well as you'd like you can always try to increase the concentration of the herbs in many different ways in the ointment (there are multiple options) as it is a very safe herb. I grew up with this herb growing heavily around the garden and house and have developed a love of this plant.
> 
> A must have book is the Herbal Medicine Makers Handbook by James Green. It doesnt give dosages and recipes precisely but has great ideas and explains all the different preparation methods and delivery methods. If you havent read it, of course.


I have more than a few herbs books....

Herbal Medicine Makers Handbook ... IMO ... is a down to earth kind of book. ... some folks like it and some don't. :dunno:


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## gypsysue

Some of the herb books by Penelope Ody have directions and recipes for making herbal remedies, as well as instructions for making infusions, extracts, etc.


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## LadyIvy

Honey is an anti-microbial and is good for sore throats and can be mixed with tumeric for boils or carbuncles. It's also great for coughs when you mix it with lemon and whiskey :2thumb:
Oil of Oregano is great for bacterial infections. I'm not going to say it's an antibiotic but it works a lot like one. It tastes like poo, so for kids or anyone with a decent gag reflex, rub it on the soles of the feet. 
At the onset of symptoms, the best things to take are elderberry syrup, cayenne, onion, garlic, ginger and vit c. Ideally by boosting your immune system you won't get to the point of needing antibiotics. Take these frequently until you feel like you are on the mend. 
Remember folks, it has only been maybe the last 40-50 years that antibiotics and vaccines have become so wide spread and overused. Lots of people had strep throat and mumps and chicken pox and flus and pneumonias and survived without medicine since the dawn of time. Prevention is best but if you do get sick, remember the old wives tales and tips your grandmothers all shared. Get in bed and rest and STAY THERE until you feel better. Drink lots of fluids. Eat some chicken (or vegetable) soup. Drink some orange juice.


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## mdprepper

LadyIvy said:


> Honey is an anti-microbial and is good for sore throats and can be mixed with tumeric for boils or carbuncles.


Can you give me the ratios for this? Is it used externally or taken internally?


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## LadyIvy

Honestly I couldn't tell you exact amounts because it depends on the type and temperature of the honey. Raw honey is a lot more solid than standard clover honey, etc...You want to make a thick paste with it. When I use "liquid" honey, it typically takes equal amounts of honey and tumeric. Basically what I do is just start off with about a 1/2 tsp of honey and then add the powdered tumeric until it's a really thick paste. This is mean to be used externally.
As for the honey for sore throats, usually what I do around November or so is get a large jar, grate a stick of ginger into it, cut a lemon in half and squeeze the juice into the jar then toss in the lemon halves and cover it all with honey and let it steep in the fridge. When anyone in the house feels like they are coming down with something, I take a few heaping TBSP's full of this and add some hot water to it and make a sort of tea out of it. You can add a shake of cayenne to it if you can stand the heat, as cayenne is great for stimulating the immune system and clearing out stuffy sinuses. You can take this frequently when you are feeling icky, but I'd do it at least 2-3 times a day until the illness passes. Don't worry if you haven't made this concoction ahead of time. You can do this on a cup by cup basis by just grating a little ginger and covering it with a couple TBSP's of lemon juice and honey into a mug and then add the water and powdered cayenne.


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## townparkradio

gypsysue said:


> Some of the herb books by Penelope Ody have directions and recipes for making herbal remedies, as well as instructions for making infusions, extracts, etc.


Herbal remedies have truth to them. This is not the same as "homeopathic" medicine. People operate under this really bizzare delusion that prescribed medicines are all these evil horrible chemicals but many are, in fact, purified versions of old herbal remedies. Many painkillers we use are plant products; most of the antibiotics we use are fungal products. These things work, there's actual studies demonstrating the characteristics. They're allopathic medicine, which is what works. Doctors observed aboriginal peoples of various societies using cures, and then studied the ones that consistently worked.

Homeopathic medicines are nonsense, you do not treat "like with like" or dilute medicines. That's not how the human body works. My last girlfriend before my wife was a fully trained Homeopath; and she diluted real honest medicine to the point where there was nothing but water, statistically speaking, in most dosage sizes, but believed that to be good enough because it still had the same "wavelength" of the medicine. More hilariously? Diluting medicine is called "potency increasing" treatment. You cannot dilute medication and have it have greater effects. That breaks the laws of reality.

Any success any of you have had with homeopathic medicine have been solely due to the healing effects of a positive attitude and believing you are doing something helpful. It has it's value, but the same value can be achieved by simply keeping upbeat, eating right, and exercising. Do not lump homeopathic "remedies" in with herbalism, and anyone who thinks the two go hand in hand should be avoided as much as you'd avoid someone who thinks you can run a diesel engine with unleaded fuel.

And for pete's sake stop ingesting silver. That's not how it's antibiotic properties work, and it's the same nonsense people do for homeopathic medicine. Just because something works on wounds does not mean it works on internal infections. It is an external antibiotic. Does drinking high proof rum clean your body of infections? No, and neither does silver; but they're both awesome topical antibiotics!

While it is true that you can get so much in your system that it resides in your skin and performs a very low level antibiotic source, you could find Cephalosporium, Pennicillium, and other natural remedies in the forest to do it better. Furthermore, the ONLY value it has like that is a lesser potency as an external antibiotic, except with the added bonus of changing your skin color and abusing your liver worse than a liter of hard liquor every night. Farming the fungus is an internal antibiotic.

You can ask any high school science teacher even to get you some of those, or other fungi, and just keep it in a colony in mini-greenhouse style containers. Looks gross, smells horrible, you'll practically need to be drunk to consume it, but unlike silver it'll actually work as an internal antibiotic.


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## townparkradio

And let's make this perfectly clear: the only reason colloidal silver even has what weak antibiotic properties when taken internally that it does is a scary thought.

You are saturating your body with it faster than your alimentary system can eject the toxic metal. Silver, like rubbing alcohol, is NOT to be taken internally! It is like any other heavy metal, consuming excess amounts beyond the minute traces the body needs simply causes your body to expel them. While we're at that, your body can only make use of about 500% USRDA recommended amounts of Vitamin C as well per day. Anything else you're just peeing out and beating up your kidneys in the process.


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## lovetogrow

Here is a decent link for some Honey Medicinal Remedies

Health Benefits Of Honey


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## LadyIvy

townparkradio said:


> Homeopathic medicines are nonsense, you do not treat "like with like" or dilute medicines. That's not how the human body works.


Then why are vaccines so heavily promoted? They battle "like with like" with every injection. Is that not how western medicine claims vaccines prevent disease? I think if the shoe fits, then feel free to wear it. Do what you are comfortable with and that you know works for you.
I've used homeopathy, it worked great and I'm still here so it obviously didn't kill me. I've also used colloidal silver, and didn't think it worked great, but I'm still her so that obviously didn't kill me either. There is more crap in drinking water than anyone could ever possibly consume in homeopathic remedies so I feel pretty safe in using them. Just as safe as western medicine. And FWIW, homeopathy is the only non-western medicine that is regulated by the FDA. Not that it's a wonderful thing because we all know how useless the FDA can be, but at least with homeopathy you can be certain that you are getting the same medicine in the same quantity every time you take it. That's not the case with herbals. I use herbals anyway, but just wanted to point that out. 
I think another big thing that people really need to consider here when they are talking about survival preparedness is nutrition. I've encountered more than one person who intends to live on Spam for a year or more. That's not a wise idea if you are planning on trying to protect your own health. Dehydrating and canning a variety of fruits and vegetables is really crucial to ensure good nutrition. Vit C tablets or Tang are also going to be a necessary component if you don't live in an area where citrus fruits are available. Even in our modern day world people still get scurvy from poor nutrition, so making sure that a varied diet and a good vitamin supplement are on hand is just as important as stockpiling antibiotics or other medicine or remedies.


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## sailaway

Anyone familiar with Arnica Montana? supposed to be really good for healing.


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## LadyIvy

Arnica is amazing for injuries. Bruises, sprains, pulled muscles etc....any kind of traumatic incident to the body, arnica is your go to homeopathic for it. It can be taken internally or it comes in creams and gels that can be rubbed on. Which type you want to use depends on the injury, when it's been bad enough I've done both together.


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## JayJay

LadyIvy said:


> Arnica is amazing for injuries. Bruises, sprains, pulled muscles etc....any kind of traumatic incident to the body, arnica is your go to homeopathic for it. It can be taken internally or it comes in creams and gels that can be rubbed on. Which type you want to use depends on the injury, when it's been bad enough I've done both together.


Where do you get your arnica??
Thanks


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## LadyIvy

The only place I've ever found it was at health food stores. It is probably available online as well if you don't live near a health food store.


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## townparkradio

LadyIvy said:


> Then why are vaccines so heavily promoted? They battle "like with like" with every injection.


What? An Elementary school student (at least in the 80's when I grew up) knows how vaccines work.

They absolutely do not battle "like with like" with vaccines. They take DEAD viruses, or easily killed amounts of ones, and inject them into you in order to stimulate your own immune system to _naturally_ induce it to be ready for future infections. It teaches your body how to recognize the 'nomes (ge, phe, and so on) of one, and only one, specific kind of virus. Furthermore, it's only done with select viruses, because, as we do not yet understand viruses completely, attempting to make vaccines of many will simply cause the virus to become active again. Yuo can't inject yourself with HIV and develop effective antibodies. In fact, we can;t even pin down HIV itself. All we can do is reliably check the count of white blood cells overall (it suppresses the immune system) and the presence of the ineffective antibodies the immune system tries to make to deal with HIV. We don't have it's makeup mapped out well enough yet to know what has to be removed to make it inactive and yet have the same recognizable pattern to teach your body to kill. We just can't do anything about shifting antigen viruses yet... and homeopathy sure can't either.

And all of this has nothing.. whatsoever.. to do with using things that look like eyes to treat infections of eyes, or using things which induce fever or clog the sinuses to treat diseases which cause fever or clogs the sinuses. If you read that from a book, you can safely throw that book away as much as you can throw one away that tells you cats and dogs can procreate. What natural remedies do work, and there are many, will never become clear so long as statements like yours are on the lips and minds of people. Vaccines are not even remotely tangentially related to homeopathy.

Vaccines are doctors using the actual viruses to train the immune system to recognize future infections OF that virus, and only that one, single virus. Why do you think people with compromised immune systems need different flu vaccines or suffer every year? It's not evil government mind control or any such, it's because the flu is also a shifting antigen virus. Vaccines treat one virus only. Homeopathy is ophidian petroleum which claims that a root that causes symptoms somehow magically treats all illnesses which cause the same symptoms. I can't imagine by what flawed thought process that can be seen as even vaguely similar to what vaccines do. You might as well claim that cutting someone who has been shot is a good way to make the original wound not kill someone.

Like the healers who came before, you have to learn what works, what does not, and refine the notes of your elders, rather than slavishly believing such silliness. That is, after all, how modern medicine came to be. People act as if modern medicine was invented in the bowels of some evil corporation. When we dispensed with quackery and went to evidence-based treatment, we learned about things like broad-spectrum antibiotics and insulin (both treatments based on herbalism, simply studied and refined). Medicine is not like the law; you are guilty until proven innocent.

"It didn't kill me" and "It worked for me" mean nothing. It has to consistently be replicated in a control situation (that's when you give one group the real "remedy" and another group a placebo) for anything to be proven. "Big Pharma" is not interested in keeping down natural remedies for one simple reason: most of their remedies are, in fact, natural, do work, and the only difference is that a pill is a standardized and purified dosage, whereas the raw form (tree bark for painkillers) will have varying doses. They know for a fact that bottled Tylenol will always work better than the tree bark; despite it working on the exact same principle. "Natural" remedies strike pharmacological companies with no fear because that's like saying people who use horses and buggies strike auto manufacturers with fear. Both will get you there, one is simply way faster and with (VERY slightly) increased risks.

Homeopathy does not figure in to "big pharma" at all, because it means nothing and does nothing. Your own positive attitude is what helped you. Getting enough rest, exercise and following a balanced diet are a greater threat to "Big Pharma" than homeopathy will ever be.

Homeopathy in a nutshell.


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## LadyIvy

Homeopathy, if you had cared do any research on this, does the exact same thing as vaccines. It stimulates the immune system to heal the body. It uses different substances, and invokes different healing responses, but at the core of how they work, yes they are exactly like vaccines. Anywho, we obviously have drastically opposite views of alternative medicine. Like I said, do what fits for you.
Pharmaceuticals are great, while they are still around. Do you have any plans for how to heal yourself should the &*^& REALLY hit the fan? I think we all need to at least contemplate what we are all going to do in the event of a complete global collapse. What happens when there isn't power anymore, ever, and no means to make more Tylenol or antibiotics or antivirals? What then? Maybe that kind of scenario will never come to pass, then again, maybe the scenarios we are all prepping for will never come to pass either. I doubt it, we're going to hell in a handbasket quite quickly, but maybe everything will be all cool and kumbayah and what not. But just in case it isn't, and the world as we know it now comes to an end, I'm learning all I can about how to treat illnesses without relying on modern means. You might want to think about doing the same. Antibiotics only stay good for so long and many are deadly once they expire.


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## goshengirl

Maybe we can share info/knowledge/opinions without insulting the other person's intelligence? :dunno::earthhug::flower::congrat:


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## lovetogrow

It is mho that this fellow is a true authority on the skinny about vaccines. Just my two cents.

Dr Horowitz, D.M.D., M.A.,M.P.H.

Excerpt regarding Horowitz below (and complete article) from this link: Dr Horowitz

*Excerpt:* "He received his doctorate from Tufts University and was awarded a fellowship in behavioral research at the University of Rochester. Dr. Horowitz earned a master's degree in public health and behavioral science from Harvard University. He also holds a master's degree in health education from Beacon College.
For more than a decade, Dr. Horowitz directed a multidisciplinary health center. He served on the faculty at Tufts University, Harvard University, and the Leslie College Institute for Arts and Human Development."

Dr. Horowitz 'The Hidden Dangers of Vaccines' Listen: http://www.markswatson.com/vaccine1.mp3

Vaccination Myths - Vaccination Myths


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## lovetogrow

crosscanadian said:


> My kids are at home sick today with Strep Throat. That got me thinking, what if we were in a bug out situation and somebody came down with something that they needed antibiotics to treat? Are there any substitutes for antibiotics?


Oops crosscanadian - didn't mean to hyjack your thread. Back to your topic :ignore:


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## lovetogrow

Also crosscanadian check out what this article has to suggest, and the site is really helpful and informative.

Strep Throat Remedies | Herbal Legacy Articles

There is also a few articles there on *SLIPPERY ELM* for use for children - BUT NEVER TO BE TAKEN BY PREGNANT WOMEN.

Be Encouraged!


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## horseman09

Wow. Lots of emotion vs science vs well-earned distrust of govt and big corps. 

I agree that we should be careful to not insult our friends here on the forum, but at the same time, I understand the frustration of those who have a scientific and historic understanding of how vaccines work and the hundreds of millions of live that have been saved by vaccines.

The fact is that vaccines have saved far more lives than antibiotics, which also come from "big pharm/corporations". Who amongst us would refuse antibiotic treatment for a loved one because those darned Pharm companies are just in it for the money; or it's just a gubmint scheme to............(pick your favorite line)?

A while back I posted some info regarding the Spanish flu of 1918 and how it caused more deaths worldwide than any other single event in human history; AND it WILL do the same right now or next year or the next -- no one knows when. But it fell flat on the forum. 

Our medical infrastructure will be absolutely helpless (by their own admission) to deal with what will be a global catasrophy, but virtually no one on this PREPPER site acknowledged it.

Believe all the conspiriacy theories you want, but the medical community is scared $hitless that WHEN the big bug comes back, it will result in death and civil chaos the likes of which mankind has never known. Our only defense against "the bug" is vaccines, not onions or some root you dig out of your cow pasture.

If you want to be knowledgeable about a catastrophic (aka Spanish flu) pandemic, Google the Spanish Flu or 1918. If THAT doesn't wake you up, no offense, but you are truly a member of the sheeple brigade.


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## tsrwivey

lovetogrow said:


> Also crosscanadian check out what this article has to suggest, and the site is really helpful and informative.
> 
> Strep Throat Remedies | Herbal Legacy Articles


PLEASE!!! PLEASE!!! PLEASE!!! If your child has symptoms of strep throat, get them some antibiotics!!!! Left untreated, it can lead to rheumatic fever, which causes LIFE LONG heart damage. A round of Penicillin will always be easier to find than daily heart medication, I guarantee you. I don't intend to be rude or disrespectful in any way, but as a pediatric nurse I just can't sit idly by & not warn of the serious consequences.


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## LadyIvy

Horseman, it is interesting that you mentioned what you did. Sadly, I in essence said the same thing but it was censored off the board this morning. Not sure why townparkradio is allowed to basically call me a moron but I'm not allowed to counter back and ask what he plans to do for prescriptions when the SHTF :dunno:
Anyway, I'd love to hear what your theories are on how preppers should deal with that kind of situation, if there is any way to deal with it. What can we have on hand that won't go bad within a year to assist with medical disasters such as bio attacks or pandemics? The only thing I can think of is to have gloves and masks and immune supportive vitamins and herbals on hand to try and prevent infection to begin with, but once influenza or other viral illnesses set in it's hard to do anything other than rest, stay hydrated and let it run it's course. Any one else have any ideas as to how to deal with a pandemic?


----------



## lovetogrow

tsrwivey said:


> PLEASE!!! PLEASE!!! PLEASE!!! If your child has symptoms of strep throat, get them some antibiotics!!!! Left untreated, it can lead to rheumatic fever, which causes LIFE LONG heart damage. A round of Penicillin will always be easier to find than daily heart medication, I guarantee you. I don't intend to be rude or disrespectful in any way, but as a pediatric nurse I just can't sit idly by & not warn of the serious consequences.


My daughter is an RN (tertiary care nurse manager) as well, and of course the _right_ round of antibiotics WHEN AVAILABLE is a sure course of treatment, HOWEVER, the questions posed by crosscanadian was *"are there any substitutes for antibiotics?"* which I interpreted as 'other means of treatment'.

My suggestions aren't designed to undermine the value of an _effective_ antibiotic, simply to offer alternative helps.


----------



## Tirediron

townparkradio said:


> What? An Elementary school student (at least in the 80's when I grew up) knows how vaccines work.
> 
> They absolutely do not battle "like with like" with vaccines. They take DEAD viruses, or easily killed amounts of ones, and inject them into you in order to stimulate your own immune system to _naturally_ induce it to be ready for future infections. It teaches your body how to recognize the 'nomes (ge, phe, and so on) of one, and only one, specific kind of virus. Furthermore, it's only done with select viruses, because, as we do not yet understand viruses completely, attempting to make vaccines of many will simply cause the virus to become active again. Yuo can't inject yourself with HIV and develop effective antibodies. In fact, we can;t even pin down HIV itself. All we can do is reliably check the count of white blood cells overall (it suppresses the immune system) and the presence of the ineffective antibodies the immune system tries to make to deal with HIV. We don't have it's makeup mapped out well enough yet to know what has to be removed to make it inactive and yet have the same recognizable pattern to teach your body to kill. We just can't do anything about shifting antigen viruses yet... and homeopathy sure can't either.
> 
> And all of this has nothing.. whatsoever.. to do with using things that look like eyes to treat infections of eyes, or using things which induce fever or clog the sinuses to treat diseases which cause fever or clogs the sinuses. If you read that from a book, you can safely throw that book away as much as you can throw one away that tells you cats and dogs can procreate. What natural remedies do work, and there are many, will never become clear so long as statements like yours are on the lips and minds of people. Vaccines are not even remotely tangentially related to homeopathy.
> 
> Vaccines are doctors using the actual viruses to train the immune system to recognize future infections OF that virus, and only that one, single virus. Why do you think people with compromised immune systems need different flu vaccines or suffer every year? It's not evil government mind control or any such, it's because the flu is also a shifting antigen virus. Vaccines treat one virus only. Homeopathy is ophidian petroleum which claims that a root that causes symptoms somehow magically treats all illnesses which cause the same symptoms. I can't imagine by what flawed thought process that can be seen as even vaguely similar to what vaccines do. You might as well claim that cutting someone who has been shot is a good way to make the original wound not kill someone.
> 
> Like the healers who came before, you have to learn what works, what does not, and refine the notes of your elders, rather than slavishly believing such silliness. That is, after all, how modern medicine came to be. People act as if modern medicine was invented in the bowels of some evil corporation. When we dispensed with quackery and went to evidence-based treatment, we learned about things like broad-spectrum antibiotics and insulin (both treatments based on herbalism, simply studied and refined). Medicine is not like the law; you are guilty until proven innocent.
> 
> "It didn't kill me" and "It worked for me" mean nothing. It has to consistently be replicated in a control situation (that's when you give one group the real "remedy" and another group a placebo) for anything to be proven. "Big Pharma" is not interested in keeping down natural remedies for one simple reason: most of their remedies are, in fact, natural, do work, and the only difference is that a pill is a standardized and purified dosage, whereas the raw form (tree bark for painkillers) will have varying doses. They know for a fact that bottled Tylenol will always work better than the tree bark; despite it working on the exact same principle. "Natural" remedies strike pharmacological companies with no fear because that's like saying people who use horses and buggies strike auto manufacturers with fear. Both will get you there, one is simply way faster and with (VERY slightly) increased risks.
> 
> Homeopathy does not figure in to "big pharma" at all, because it means nothing and does nothing. Your own positive attitude is what helped you. Getting enough rest, exercise and following a balanced diet are a greater threat to "Big Pharma" than homeopathy will ever be.
> 
> Homeopathy in a nutshell.


You sure bought into big pharma's version of the truth, not long ago MD's and big pharma were calling Chiropractic a fantasy treatment. These same people pushed transfat margarine until they got caught then had a big campaign to eliminate it. your not on talk radio now so you can't cut the other caller off :scratch


----------



## NaeKid

LadyIvy said:


> Horseman, it is interesting that you mentioned what you did. Sadly, I in essence said the same thing but it was censored off the board this morning.


The anti-spambot that is installed on our server flagged your message for further study. I personally reviewed it and took the flag off. Once the 'bot has learned your style of writing (and I have also approved of the writing) then the 'bot will allow your posts to pass.


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## LadyIvy

Thank you Naekid


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## horseman09

Tirediron said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> You sure bought into big pharma's version of the truth, not long ago MD's and big pharma were calling Chiropractic a fantasy treatment. These same people pushed transfat margarine until they got caught then had a big campaign to eliminate it. your not on talk radio now so you can't cut the other caller off :scratch


Tirediron, you don't have to believe big pharma or MDs. All you have to do is ask yourself this: What eliminated smallpox as a disease from the face of the earth? What has almost entirely eliminated childhood deaths and severe disabilities in US by dramatically reducing the number of cases of polio, diptheria, measles, mumps, chickenpox, tetanus...........the list goes on?

The intellectually honest and indisputable answer is: *vaccines*. If yo believe something else is responsible, I'd love t hear it.

Furthermore -- and no offense intended -- it is hypocritical to say vaccines are BS because the big pharma and the medical community are lying, lowdown, no-account crooks (your inference) unless you would also be willing to watch a loved one die from a simple infection or treatable (you might say *allegedly* treatable) disease because, after all, the big pharma and the medical community are lying, lowdown, no-account crooks.

Therefore, just as their vaccines are BS, so must be their other treatments. After all Tireiron, you don't want to buy into big pharma or MD's version of the truth, right?


----------



## horseman09

LadyIvy said:


> [Horseman], I'd love to hear what your theories are on how preppers should deal with that kind of situation, if there is any way to deal with it. What can we have on hand that won't go bad within a year to assist with medical disasters such as bio attacks or pandemics? The only thing I can think of is to have gloves and masks and immune supportive vitamins and herbals on hand to try and prevent infection to begin with, but once influenza or other viral illnesses set in it's hard to do anything other than rest, stay hydrated and let it run it's course. Any one else have any ideas as to how to deal with a pandemic?


LadyIvy, in addition to your suggestions, prevention will undoubtably be the most imortant weapon on the personal/family level. Masks, gloves and outer protective wear for caregivers will be crucial, but so will quarantine quarters for incoming family members. In other words, as social conditions begin to deteriorate due to the massive numbers of sick, dying and dead, a panic will ensue that will further shut down essential services. So as family members and close friends begin to congragate if for no other reason than security and caregiving, being able to quarantine incoming -- and potentially infected -- newcomers, will be crucial. Based on other flu viruses, 5 days appears sufficient.

During the Spanish Flu of 1918, a few small towns completely avoided the flu by instituting a total, town-wide quarantine. *Nobody* in or out. History also tells of a town that did that with one deadly exception: the mailman. Many people died.

As I mentioned in previous posts, the only substantive aid modern medicine could offer victims of a new-wave Spanish Flu would be ventilators, but they also will be practically useless because there are barely enough of them now even for routine cases. Eventually, a vaccine will remove the threat, but only after catastrophic numbers of deaths and disruptions have occurred.

Army doctors' diaries from WWI tell us of hordes of young, healthy soldiers becoming ill in the morning and being dead by midnight -- from drowning in their own fluids. The S Flu killed more soldiers in that war than all enemy action combined for the entire war. It killed more people that the Black Plague that ravaged Europe in the Middle Ages and it killed more people than any other single event in the history of mankind.

Many cities, including Philadephia, dug mass graves and buried thousands of people with no coffins, no markers -- nothing, because of the overwhelming numbers. Corpses of loved ones began stacking up on porches. Whole familes sometimes died and no one knew because everyone else was either sick or too scared to check on one another.

I must say, I am very frustrated at the attitude of most people regarding this threat. I am not a flighty, panicky sort, nor do I take anything at face value. But I believe in history and I believe in facts. With that in mind, I think all of you preppers out there who have discounted the *certainty* of an extremely deadly, global flu pandemic are allowing your blind anti-pharm, anti-MD, anti-govt emotionalism to overrule your good common sense. I used the word "certainty" because it is not a matter of if. It is a matter of when. OK. Maybe it will be in ten years, or 20 or another 50 years. But there is absolutely no reason why in can't be this year or the next.

Don't take my word for it. I would suggest all preppers google the Spanish Flu of 1918.


----------



## tsrwivey

lovetogrow said:


> My daughter is an RN (tertiary care nurse manager) as well, and of course the _right_ round of antibiotics WHEN AVAILABLE is a sure course of treatment, HOWEVER, the questions posed by crosscanadian was *"are there any substitutes for antibiotics?"* which I interpreted as 'other means of treatment'.
> 
> My suggestions aren't designed to undermine the value of an _effective_ antibiotic, simply to offer alternative helps.


I was not attempting to shoot down your suggestions or your expertise as the mother of a nurse. I simply added a piece of information that some might not be aware of. I attempted to do so in a such a way as to not get any feathers ruffled, apparently I was not sucessful. My apologies.


----------



## lovetogrow

tsrwivey said:


> I was not attempting to shoot down your suggestions or your expertise as the mother of a nurse. I simply added a piece of information that some might not be aware of. I attempted to do so in a such a way as to not get any feathers ruffled, apparently I was not sucessful. My apologies.


Glad you clarified this tsrwivey...my bad too, aplogies all around. BTW I worked in primary and tertiary health care (medical social work) for a few decades, and understand a wee bit of that insider dialectic, allbeit no expertise in nursing...aside from living vicariously through my daughter


----------



## LadyIvy

horseman09 said:


> I must say, I am very frustrated at the attitude of most people regarding this threat. I am not a flighty, panicky sort, nor do I take anything at face value. But I believe in history and I believe in facts. With that in mind, I think all of you preppers out there who have discounted the *certainty* of an extremely deadly, global flu pandemic are allowing your blind anti-pharm, anti-MD, anti-govt emotionalism to overrule your good common sense. I used the word "certainty" because it is not a matter of if. It is a matter of when. OK. Maybe it will be in ten years, or 20 or another 50 years. But there is absolutely no reason why in can't be this year or the next.
> 
> Don't take my word for it. I would suggest all preppers google the Spanish Flu of 1918.


I'm anti-pharm, somewhat anti-MD and most definitely anti-govt and I'm not blind to it. :dunno: If anything, I think sheeples are more prone to this kind of blindness than anything else. I think up until Hurricane Katrina, everyone, myself included, assumed that the almighty US could fix any problem. I agree, with as over-populated as our planet is, it most definitely not a matter of if but when. We have far too many people and not enough sanitation procedures in third world countries, and with the ease of travel these days, what starts in a ghetto or a slum somewhere will rapidly spread before we every have any idea that we've got a huge problem on our hands. Couple that with overuse of antibiotics and the increasing colonization of antibiotic resistant bacteria, and pesticide resistant strains of disease spreading critters, it's a timebomb for sure.
I appreciate the suggestion of a quarantine area for incoming people. I had never considered it before but it is definitely a necessary precaution.


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## Papaya

I've read that sunshine, or what sunshine creates in our skin, vitamin D3 can be decent at fighting infections. I take enough D3 to keep a testing level between 60 to 70ng/ml and haven't had a significant cold in 5 years.

"Higher vitamin D level linked with reduced risk of infection"

Higher vitamin D level linked with reduced risk of infection | Dr Briffa's Blog


----------



## tsrwivey

LadyIvy said:


> The only thing I can think of is to have gloves and masks and immune supportive vitamins and herbals on hand to try and prevent infection to begin with, but once influenza or other viral illnesses set in it's hard to do anything other than rest, stay hydrated and let it run it's course. Any one else have any ideas as to how to deal with a pandemic?


Learn proper handwashing & teach it to everyone, especially kids. Exercise regularly. Clean your nose with saline (I know it's a gross thing to talk about but lots of "stuff" grows in there). Learn how to perform percussion & posterial drainage (I posted a link in another post to a page with illustrations on how to do this). Buy a decent stethescope & learn how to use it. (on a side note, get a manual blood pressure cuff & learn how to use it too). Google "breath sounds" & you'll become an expert in no time.. Learn how to sterilize at home using boiling, vinegar, bleach, etc. Learn the difference between antibacterials & antivirals. Keep Pedialyte on hand & NO Gatorade, etc. is NOT a substitute for it, you can kill folks giving them sports drinks at the wrong time but that's another topic. Learn about viruses (90% of human illness is caused by them anyway). Don't overtreat fevers, coughs, etc. these are our bodies way of getting the critters out/killing them. Gotta go but this will give you a good start.:2thumb:


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## JayJay

Papaya said:


> I've read that sunshine, or what sunshine creates in our skin, vitamin D3 can be decent at fighting infections. I take enough D3 to keep a testing level between 60 to 70ng/ml and haven't had a significant cold in 5 years.
> 
> "Higher vitamin D level linked with reduced risk of infection"
> 
> Higher vitamin D level linked with reduced risk of infection | Dr Briffa's Blog


it's also the only thing that prevents the muscle spasms in my legs at night.:2thumb:


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## horseman09

Too much D can also cause liver damage.


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## JayJay

Too much D can also cause liver damage.

I also heard cigarettes may cause cancer...My mom smoked for 62 years.:ignore:


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## Papaya

My understanding is that the main problem with too much vitamin D3 is creating a condition called 'hypercalcemia'. This is where the body begins to place calcium in places not desired.

And ss mentioned I test my D3 levels, and keep them between a safe 60 to 70ng/ml. I don't want to make myself sick also! I believe it is test results above 150ng/ml that is associated with D3 toxicity.

I learned how to take D3 correctly from this cardiologist's writings. He has had success in reversing calcium heart scan scores in some of his patients that take D3. I recall this post about how to avoid D3 toxicity that might be of help.

"Vitamin D toxicity"
The Heart Scan Blog: Vitamin D toxicity


----------



## lovetogrow

LadyIvy said:


> Any one else have any ideas as to how to deal with a pandemic?


H1N1 Swine Flu Prevention

This article is pretty much about what has already has been said with more detail, but it has a section devoted to *'gargling with salt water *or listerine for preventing proliferation'.

H1N1 Swine Flu Prevention
H1N1 Swine Flu prevention is big topic in light of the pandemic flu expected this fall (2009). I recently received an e-mail with some good advice about how to prevent getting sick from the H1N1 Swine Flu virus (also known as Influenza A). Even if you are able to get the H1N1 Swine Flu vaccine it would be a good idea to still practice these recommendations.

This information is purportedly from a "Consultant General Surgeon & Gastroenterologist, based in India." Whether or not such a person was the true author (it is hard to tell with e-mail forwards) the information appears to contain some wise counsel. I pass along the helpful parts along with my comments.

First is some background information on the H1N1 virus itself.

Tamiflu [an anti-viral flu drug] does not kill but prevents H1N1 from further proliferation till the virus limits itself in about 1-2 weeks (its natural cycle).

H1N1, like other Influenza A viruses, only infects the upper respiratory tract and proliferates (only) there. The only portals of entry are the nostrils and mouth/ throat.

In a global epidemic of this nature, it's almost impossible not to come into contact with H1N1 in spite of all precautions.

Contact with H1N1 is not so much of a problem as proliferation is.

Since you probably will come in contact with H1N1 the best "prevention" is not avoiding it, but rather preventing it from proliferating (and so thus becoming sick because of it).

While you are still healthy and not showing any symptoms of H1N1 infection, in order to prevent proliferation, aggravation of symptoms, and development of secondary infections, some very simple steps--not fully highlighted in most official communications--can be practiced (instead of focusing on N95 [face masks and respirators] or Tamiflu):

N95 referrers to the NIOSH N95 rating given to face masks that are certified to filter 95% of all airborne partials. N95 face masks would be for preventing contact with the virus, which as he points out is extremely hard to do.

Tamiflu as he pointed out earlier does nothing to actually kill the virus, but simply keeps if from further proliferation. It would be used to treat someone who already has the virus and is experiencing flu symptoms.

Instead of focusing on (ineffective) treatment and (unlikely) avoidance, let us instead focus on more effective preventative measures that mitigate the proliferation of the virus.

H1N1 Swine Flu Prevention - Recommendation #1
1. Frequent hand-washing (well highlighted in all official communications).

For starters wash your hands:

•Each time you use the restroom
•Before eating
•Every time you return home from being out, whether it was to the store or Grandma's house
H1N1 Swine Flu Prevention - Recommendation #2
2. "Hands-off-the-face" approach. Resist all temptation to touch any part of one's face (unless you want to eat or bathe.)

This is a hard one and takes a lot of self-control if you are a face toucher like me.

H1N1 Swine Flu Prevention - Recommendation #3
3. Gargle twice a day with warm salt water (use Listerine if you don't trust salt).

*H1N1 takes 2-3 days after initial infection in the throat/ nasal cavity to proliferate and show characteristic symptoms. Simple gargling prevents proliferation.

In a way, gargling with salt water has the same effect on a healthy individual that Tamiflu has on an infected one. Don't underestimate this simple, inexpensive and powerful preventive measure.*I can attest to the effectiveness of this simple point of advice. I use to have chronic sore throats. I started gargling with Listerine once a day about a year ago. My sore throats have almost completely disappeared. Occasionally I will get a sore throat for a day, or at the most two days, but I have yet to have the two-week or longer sore throats that I use to have repeatedly all winter.

H1N1 Swine Flu Prevention - Recommendation #4
4. (Similar to 3 above) Clean your nostrils at least once every day with warm salt water. Not everybody may be good at this, but blowing the nose hard once a day and swabbing both nostrils with cotton buds dipped in warm salt water is very effective in bringing down viral population.

Prior to reading this I had never cleaned my nostrils. After doing a little research I found that there is a little device called Neti pot that allows you to easily pour water into one nostril while letting it run out the other, thus rinsing the nasal cavity.

I picked on up and gave it a try. It took a little getting used to, but it was very effective in clearing the nasal passage. It has other benefits for those with sinus problem, which is a bonus.

Instead of the traditional Neti pots I recommend the NeliMed Sinus Rinse squeeze bottle. It is a bit easier to use than the tea pot looking models. After you have used up the saline solution packets that come with the kit, you can make your own with equal parts of baking soda and non-iodized table salt. Use a level 1/8 teaspoon of each in 8 oz of water.

H1N1 Swine Flu Prevention - Recommendation #5
5. Boost your natural immunity with foods that are rich in Vitamin C (including citrus fruits). If you have to supplement with Vitamin C tablets, make sure that they also have Zinc/bioflavonoids to boost absorption.

In general, it is preferred to eat fresh fruit and vegetables rather than taking supplements. The synergistic effect of the other nutrients found in fresh fruit cause the vitamin C they contain to be more effective than supplements even though they contain much less actual vitamin C.

H1N1 Swine Flu Prevention - Recommendation #6
6. Drink warm liquids as much as you can.

Drinking warm liquids has the same effect as gargling, but in the reverse direction. They wash off proliferating viruses from the throat into the stomach where they cannot survive, proliferate, or do any harm.

I've never heard this before, but it does make some sense. A friend of mine (who has a graduate degree in infectious disease) did confirm that almost no viruses can survive in the stomach (including H1N1 and other influenza viruses).

The question then, is whether or not drinking hot liquids is effective at washing them down into your stomach. I don't know the answer to that question, but drinking warm liquids certainly won't hurt anything and being properly hydrated is critical to overall health!

Are you prepared for the next disaster? Visit my emergency kits page for information on how you can prepare now to survive when disaster strikes.


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## TwoHoot

Canadian said:


> Just out of curiosity have you guys even bothered asking your doctor to just write you a prescription? Is this some kind of American thing?


Yes. To get a Rx, the doctor has to diagnose before prescribing. Doctors that don't can lose their license, although that is usually for over prescribing mind altering, addictive drugs.

In Mexico, drugs are readily available without a prescription. In fact, most people skip the doctor altogether and go straight to the pharmacist. This is true in most of Latin America.

Before the drug related violence in Mexico, most US citizens within driving distance from the border would buy all their drugs in Mexico, with or without a doctor's Rx. Now, it is simply too dangerous to cross the border, plus customs have gotten much more strict on bringing anything across the border.

I don't know about Canada. I was there once and got deported for working but I have never tried to buy drugs there.

Cordially,
TwoHoot


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## LadyIvy

Plus you need to be rather cautious about prescriptions obtained in Mexico. I don't think the level of accountability in pharmacies is like it is in the US or Canada and there's been some real horror stories about people getting the wrong meds. 
Vit D does affect the immune system, turns out all those infections my son has been having this year were probably caused by super low vit D levels. His are really low according to blood work and his doctor said this is way more common than most people think it is. Spending time in the sunshine or drinking whole milk doesn't always fix it either. We live in Tucson where it's sunny almost all the time and both my sons have super low Vit D levels and although I haven't been tested my guess is I probably have low levels as well. It just boils down to genetics. You can either process Vit D well, or you can't. And if you can't then you need to supplement otherwise you're at risk for a lot of problems.


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## Suannehill

*My 2 cents on antibiotics*

After 32 years in healthcare then studying to be a Naturopath I have some thoughts.
Caring for the immune system is of course best.
Next problem is that infections come from myriad bugs and antibiotics are specific to certain bugs and Don't work at all on a virus.
So here are my basic suggestions:
1. Colloidial Silver at least 250 ppm (less strength does not work) I have used it for MRSA and C-Diff
2. Olive leaf is a strong anti-viral 
3. Elderberry juice is also a strong antiviral and also immune booster.

There are many teas and spices that work too, but I have found these to work the fastest and best.


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## Reblazed

Thanks, Suannehill, I didn't know that about Olive leaf.


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## Sonnyjim

Thymol which comes from thyme herbs is a natural antibiotic. Did some research since I had some leftover thyme to make some tea with. Rest is drying in paper bag downstairs.


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## zorro

kdnxdr said:


> You might want to do some research on Colloidal Silver.
> 
> During the Y2K "event", I did purchase some and have used it periodically. I did have a small abrasion that was not healing up. I used the neosporin and other such topicals but it was starting to worry me......thinking it was possibly Mersa(sp?), I used the colloidal silver and it healed right up. I do have an interesting little scar to remind me that it's always best to be proactive and not always depend on the doctors.
> 
> kid


I used to have a small wound that would not heal for months. No major infection sign, but would not heal and would keep red and warm. I then was told by a nurse that they use bandages impregnated with silver for people who get really bad burned. I discovered that you can buy small bandages such impregnated and tried it. The wound healed quickly. I'm convinced now, it proved to work for me a couple of times.


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## Adler2

Hi,,,
Antibiotics are the medicine that kills the bacteria that cause infection.
Amoxil and keflex are the two options available to you but if you want to have better prescription do consult it with the nearest Chemist.


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## baarf

*Merck Manual*

A Merck Manual is a wonderful thing. Also a physician's desk reference



TomChemEngineer said:


> I have a nice little card that shows common ailments and the specific antibiotics that take care of these ailments, as well as a compilation of common antibiotics that should be in your case and the usual dosages. The extended Medical Kit should have both the card as well as a selection of antibiotics ... depending on how long you expect to be away from the regular pharmacy and how many people will be using your medical kit indicates how many courses of each antibiotic that needs to be in your bag. If you are worried about antibiotics going bad, you can give them to a charitable agency before they expire, take the deduction, then refill your stores with fresh antibiotics. I do occasional non-profit work overseas, and am never without a Medical Kit with antibiotics. Sourcing is not that difficult.


----------



## baarf

*Spanis flu bacteria link*

The published reports "clearly and consistently implicated secondary bacterial pneumonia caused by common upper respiratory flora in most influenza fatalities,"

Again, anti biotics may well save the day.

from :Bacterial Pneumonia Caused Most Deaths in 1918 Influenza Pandemic, August 19, 2008 News Release - National Institutes of Health (NIH)



horseman09 said:


> LadyIvy, in addition to your suggestions, prevention will undoubtably be the most imortant weapon on the personal/family level. Masks, gloves and outer protective wear for caregivers will be crucial, but so will quarantine quarters for incoming family members. In other words, as social conditions begin to deteriorate due to the massive numbers of sick, dying and dead, a panic will ensue that will further shut down essential services. So as family members and close friends begin to congragate if for no other reason than security and caregiving, being able to quarantine incoming -- and potentially infected -- newcomers, will be crucial. Based on other flu viruses, 5 days appears sufficient.
> 
> During the Spanish Flu of 1918, a few small towns completely avoided the flu by instituting a total, town-wide quarantine. *Nobody* in or out. History also tells of a town that did that with one deadly exception: the mailman. Many people died.
> 
> As I mentioned in previous posts, the only substantive aid modern medicine could offer victims of a new-wave Spanish Flu would be ventilators, but they also will be practically useless because there are barely enough of them now even for routine cases. Eventually, a vaccine will remove the threat, but only after catastrophic numbers of deaths and disruptions have occurred.
> 
> Army doctors' diaries from WWI tell us of hordes of young, healthy soldiers becoming ill in the morning and being dead by midnight -- from drowning in their own fluids. The S Flu killed more soldiers in that war than all enemy action combined for the entire war. It killed more people that the Black Plague that ravaged Europe in the Middle Ages and it killed more people than any other single event in the history of mankind.
> 
> Many cities, including Philadephia, dug mass graves and buried thousands of people with no coffins, no markers -- nothing, because of the overwhelming numbers. Corpses of loved ones began stacking up on porches. Whole familes sometimes died and no one knew because everyone else was either sick or too scared to check on one another.
> 
> I must say, I am very frustrated at the attitude of most people regarding this threat. I am not a flighty, panicky sort, nor do I take anything at face value. But I believe in history and I believe in facts. With that in mind, I think all of you preppers out there who have discounted the *certainty* of an extremely deadly, global flu pandemic are allowing your blind anti-pharm, anti-MD, anti-govt emotionalism to overrule your good common sense. I used the word "certainty" because it is not a matter of if. It is a matter of when. OK. Maybe it will be in ten years, or 20 or another 50 years. But there is absolutely no reason why in can't be this year or the next.
> 
> Don't take my word for it. I would suggest all preppers google the Spanish Flu of 1918.


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## ymez2105

604joe said:


> For Alternative cancer treatments, tooth abscess/infections, yeast/etc, intestinal track toxicity's causing strain on kidneys & lymphatic system. Stops Fatigue by counteracting the acidic effects of sugar & protein breakdown.. I supplement a liter of water with a teaspoon of potassium bicarbonate usp, order through me or possibly your pharmacist, 500g for $25 and this is a purified combo of the 2 main alkaline minerals, the body's main electrolytes.
> 
> It works to stop acid's very quickly, and works well with ongoing dosage, to swing the pH throughout the body. Most people have acidosis because there's no bulk source of those minerals since we don't drink spring water from the Earth anymore.
> 
> This mineral also lowers blood pressure, and prevents muscle pain during and after athletic endurance.
> 
> email or contact me for advanced consulting


I would like more info how do I email you?


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## ymez2105

townparkradio said:


> What? An Elementary school student (at least in the 80's when I grew up) knows how vaccines work.
> 
> They absolutely do not battle "like with like" with vaccines. They take DEAD viruses, or easily killed amounts of ones, and inject them into you in order to stimulate your own immune system to _naturally_ induce it to be ready for future infections. It teaches your body how to recognize the 'nomes (ge, phe, and so on) of one, and only one, specific kind of virus. Furthermore, it's only done with select viruses, because, as we do not yet understand viruses completely, attempting to make vaccines of many will simply cause the virus to become active again. Yuo can't inject yourself with HIV and develop effective antibodies. In fact, we can;t even pin down HIV itself. All we can do is reliably check the count of white blood cells overall (it suppresses the immune system) and the presence of the ineffective antibodies the immune system tries to make to deal with HIV. We don't have it's makeup mapped out well enough yet to know what has to be removed to make it inactive and yet have the same recognizable pattern to teach your body to kill. We just can't do anything about shifting antigen viruses yet... and homeopathy sure can't either.
> 
> And all of this has nothing.. whatsoever.. to do with using things that look like eyes to treat infections of eyes, or using things which induce fever or clog the sinuses to treat diseases which cause fever or clogs the sinuses. If you read that from a book, you can safely throw that book away as much as you can throw one away that tells you cats and dogs can procreate. What natural remedies do work, and there are many, will never become clear so long as statements like yours are on the lips and minds of people. Vaccines are not even remotely tangentially related to homeopathy.
> 
> Vaccines are doctors using the actual viruses to train the immune system to recognize future infections OF that virus, and only that one, single virus. Why do you think people with compromised immune systems need different flu vaccines or suffer every year? It's not evil government mind control or any such, it's because the flu is also a shifting antigen virus. Vaccines treat one virus only. Homeopathy is ophidian petroleum which claims that a root that causes symptoms somehow magically treats all illnesses which cause the same symptoms. I can't imagine by what flawed thought process that can be seen as even vaguely similar to what vaccines do. You might as well claim that cutting someone who has been shot is a good way to make the original wound not kill someone.
> 
> Like the healers who came before, you have to learn what works, what does not, and refine the notes of your elders, rather than slavishly believing such silliness. That is, after all, how modern medicine came to be. People act as if modern medicine was invented in the bowels of some evil corporation. When we dispensed with quackery and went to evidence-based treatment, we learned about things like broad-spectrum antibiotics and insulin (both treatments based on herbalism, simply studied and refined). Medicine is not like the law; you are guilty until proven innocent.
> 
> "It didn't kill me" and "It worked for me" mean nothing. It has to consistently be replicated in a control situation (that's when you give one group the real "remedy" and another group a placebo) for anything to be proven. "Big Pharma" is not interested in keeping down natural remedies for one simple reason: most of their remedies are, in fact, natural, do work, and the only difference is that a pill is a standardized and purified dosage, whereas the raw form (tree bark for painkillers) will have varying doses. They know for a fact that bottled Tylenol will always work better than the tree bark; despite it working on the exact same principle. "Natural" remedies strike pharmacological companies with no fear because that's like saying people who use horses and buggies strike auto manufacturers with fear. Both will get you there, one is simply way faster and with (VERY slightly) increased risks.
> 
> Homeopathy does not figure in to "big pharma" at all, because it means nothing and does nothing. Your own positive attitude is what helped you. Getting enough rest, exercise and following a balanced diet are a greater threat to "Big Pharma" than homeopathy will ever be.
> 
> Homeopathy in a nutshell.


Its what they add to the vaccines that will kill us. The human body is an incredible divine created machine it does not need training from vaccines or big pharma companies to be trained. Vaccines actually weaken the development of the immune system because we pump our children so full of vaccines that it hinders their immune systems. Are you aware that some states changed their mandatory vaccine policy to non mandatory and their SIDS rates dropped 50%. I am not all that familiar with homeopathic remedies but I will stick with gods pharmacy any day over big pharma.


----------



## ymez2105

horseman09 said:


> Tirediron, you don't have to believe big pharma or MDs. All you have to do is ask yourself this: What eliminated smallpox as a disease from the face of the earth? What has almost entirely eliminated childhood deaths and severe disabilities in US by dramatically reducing the number of cases of polio, diptheria, measles, mumps, chickenpox, tetanus...........the list goes on?
> 
> The intellectually honest and indisputable answer is: *vaccines*. If yo believe something else is responsible, I'd love t hear it.
> 
> Furthermore -- and no offense intended -- it is hypocritical to say vaccines are BS because the big pharma and the medical community are lying, lowdown, no-account crooks (your inference) unless you would also be willing to watch a loved one die from a simple infection or treatable (you might say *allegedly* treatable) disease because, after all, the big pharma and the medical community are lying, lowdown, no-account crooks.
> 
> Therefore, just as their vaccines are BS, so must be their other treatments. After all Tireiron, you don't want to buy into big pharma or MD's version of the truth, right?


I would encourage you to do some research on vaccines as to why many parents are deciding not to vaccinate their children.


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## Virgil_cain

ymez2105 said:


> Its what they add to the vaccines that will kill us. The human body is an incredible divine created machine it does not need training from vaccines or big pharma companies to be trained. Vaccines actually weaken the development of the immune system because we pump our children so full of vaccines that it hinders their immune systems. Are you aware that some states changed their mandatory vaccine policy to non mandatory and their SIDS rates dropped 50%. I am not all that familiar with homeopathic remedies but I will stick with gods pharmacy any day over big pharma.


So, are you suggesting that the simultaneous *elimination* of smallpox and the introduction of smallpox vaccine were unrelated events? That's damn coincidental don't you think? In fact, since you assert that vaccines actually hinder the body's immune system, shouldn't smallpox have gotten *worse* with the introduction of smallpox vaccine? What you suggest does not withstand exposure to facts and logic.

Homeopathy has been around since 1796, yet smallpox, polio, TB, etc were not cured until the introduction of vaccines and antibiotics. Again, just a coincidence?


----------



## Dan1966

*Let's keep this real*

I am a firm believer in many aspects of alternative therapies, I even incorporate some homeopathy, naturopathy, Ayurvedic, etc into my medical practice and I am an allopathic trained physician. There are many positive aspects to be found in traditional as well as alternative therapies but when it comes to vaccines there is no real debate. There is a lot of misinformation out there and I have participated in many debate, remained open minded to all sides but the fact of the matter is, vaccines work and I have yet to read any credible data to attribute them to the harm that some have portrayed. Get vaccinations.


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## lazydaisy67

Canadian said:


> Just out of curiosity have you guys even bothered asking your doctor to just write you a prescription? Is this some kind of American thing? Is it because you don't have free health care like us? I just ask my doctor and he'll write me a script for anything reasonable. Do you really have to resort to using animal stuff on humans? People have to be at least somewhat reasonable in other countries.
> 
> In my experience if you just ask you usually get what you want. If someone says no you just ask again. If they say no again you ask again in a different way and throw in a "come on man help me out." That usually works. Someone has to say yes at some point.


It's not that easy. If you don't have insurance an office visit can cost $80 or more. You have to visit the doctor before he/she will prescribe anything at all. On top of that, again with no insurance, antibiotics can cost $100 sometimes. If you're lucky, whatever you have can be treated with Amoxicillin, which is cheap, like $20. If you don't have insurance, just going to the doctor for a relatively simple issue can be pretty expensive. For those who have insurance, it's a lot cheaper, not necessarily free, and why you wouldn't go is beyond me.


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## purecaffeine

Traditional medicines work ... that's why they're called "medicine". Homeopathic remedies have no physiological benefit and if "effective" it is due to the placebo effect or is purely coincidence.

Colloidal silver has some benefit but it's also harmful. Many herbs have some benefit although their benefits are often overstated and they'll only work for one or two of the dozen things that people market them as cures for and even then only mildly effective as compared to the benefit of a healthy diet, healthy environment, good hydration, rest or synthetic medicine such as antibiotics.

Vitamins and minerals work because they are actually used by the body so Vitamin C is effective. Zinc is effective. Peppermint oil has been proven to be somewhat effective for some of the benefits it is advertised for. Echinacea has been proven to be somewhat effective in some studies. Acai has not. Dandelion has not. Saw palmetto has not.

The US National Library of Medicine has an excellent resource that summarises the research for a range of herbs and supplements:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/herb_All.html


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## cajunmeadows

Did not read all the threads but go to Paladin Press. There are books on animal medicine that can be obtained at feed stores and used for human consumption.


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## kappydell

if using vet meds be sure they are usp grade. most are. they can be hard on stomach, as they are meant for animals and do not have buffers in them. I generally use swine dosage, as their metabolism is like ours, and they are listed by poundage, which makes figuring doses easier. i would not use any vet med that does not have a human equivalent - a trip to the library to check the physician's desk reference will help with dosages, too. yes, I have fish antibiotics - the dosing in pills is much easier. I also keep procaine pennicillin G and syringes (they need to be larger than for human use, the vet peniccilin is thicker), erythromycin and tetracycline (oral) on hand. I also save up any 'cillins' from old prescriptions, keeping them in a cool dark place. Hesperidan press has some info on using older/outdated meds in its book "where there is no doctor" You can download it for free, it is excellent. Paladin press has execellent info, so do several austere medicine sites. But I AM NOT A DOCTOR SO THIS IS IN NO WAY MEDICAL ADVICE!!!


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## Shane

I haven't read the entire thread here, so I don't know if this was already mentioned, but I've gotten great results from Olive Leaf Extract. .. Whenever someone in our family gets a cold we start them on 2 capsules every hour and it usually knocks out the cold within 24 hours. I've even had results treating pneumonia believe it or not, but over 3 or 4 days and not just one. Also in cases of something as severe as pneumonia, I would mega dose on natural source ascorbic acid as well (3 to 5 grams every two hours. If diarrhea develops simply lower the dosage and gradually raise again to pre diarrhea level). .... You have to be sure and avoid all sugar and alcohol also, as these things will very much promote an infection and undo the benefits of the olive leaf or any natural remedy. 

It's very safe to take high doses of olive leaf, which is an antibacterial and antiviral remedy. Many people take a few capsules a day to help prevent illness. ....................... Of course the same is very much true of natural ascorbic acid which is a water soluble vitamin that does not accumulate in the liver.


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## Davarm

Shane said:


> I haven't read the entire thread here, so I don't know if this was already mentioned, but I've gotten great results from Olive Leaf Extract. .. Whenever someone in our family gets a cold we start them on 2 capsules every hour and it usually knocks out the cold within 24 hours. I've even had results treating pneumonia believe it or not, but over 3 or 4 days and not just one. Also in cases of something as severe as pneumonia, I would mega dose on natural source ascorbic acid as well (3 to 5 grams every two hours. If diarrhea develops simply lower the dosage and gradually raise again to pre diarrhea level). .... You have to be sure and avoid all sugar and alcohol also, as these things will very much promote an infection and undo the benefits of the olive leaf or any natural remedy.
> 
> It's very safe to take high doses of olive leaf, which is an antibacterial and antiviral remedy. Many people take a few capsules a day to help prevent illness. ....................... Of course the same is very much true of natural ascorbic acid which is a water soluble vitamin that does not accumulate in the liver.


My oldest DD pushes the olive leaf extract she gets at the Health Food Store she works at, she thinks it is a bit smelly but I like the "aroma" it kinda reminds me of an Italian Kitchen(stationed in Italy 3 years). About two years ago, I had mild pneumonia and she poked it down me along with my prescription antibiotics. Got better pretty quick but don't know which/or if both were responsible.


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## Shane

Davarm said:


> My oldest DD pushes the olive leaf extract she gets at the Health Food Store she works at, she thinks it is a bit smelly but I like the "aroma" it kinda reminds me of an Italian Kitchen(stationed in Italy 3 years). About two years ago, I had mild pneumonia and she poked it down me along with my prescription antibiotics. Got better pretty quick but don't know which/or if both were responsible.


I am always very careful about researching for any contraindications when combining any specific natural remedy with a specific pharmaceutical. It's good to know that the olive leaf did not conflict with the antibiotic you were taking. 
...... I've also heard great things about Oil of Oregano but I have yet to try it.


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## K9-Handler

kappydell said:


> I also save up any 'cillins' from old prescriptions, keeping them in a cool dark place. Hesperidan press has some info on using older/outdated meds in its book "where there is no doctor" ... But I AM NOT A DOCTOR SO THIS IS IN NO WAY MEDICAL ADVICE!!!


Shame on you for not finishing your 'cillins' when they are prescribed to you! :gaah: 
There is a world-wide epidemic of super bugs that are caused when they form a resistance to common antibiotics. They do that when they get enough dosage to change their immunity, but not enough dosage to kill them.
ALWAYS FINISH YOUR ANTIBIOTICS -- even if you start to feel better!
This is one of the prime reasons that physicians are hesitant to prescribe antibiotics -- misuse is a public heath issue.


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## gypsysue

K9-Handler said:


> Shame on you for not finishing your 'cillins' when they are prescribed to you! :gaah:
> There is a world-wide epidemic of super bugs that are caused when they form a resistance to common antibiotics. They do that when they get enough dosage to change their immunity, but not enough dosage to kill them.
> ALWAYS FINISH YOUR ANTIBIOTICS -- even if you start to feel better!
> This is one of the prime reasons that physicians are hesitant to prescribe antibiotics -- misuse is a public heath issue.


Yes! Absolutely! If you start a course of antibiotics you need to finish it to the last pill. Just because you feel better isn't a reason to stop. Things are still going on inside of you that these are designed to fix.

My brother and his wife appall me! He got a cold and he went to a grocery store clinic and got a prescription for an antibiotic. A couple days later my sister-in-law emailed me that my brother was feeling better and had quit taking the antibiotic, but that SHE was now feeling like she was coming down with his cold, so she had started taking his antibiotic and thought a couple days of that would knock the cold! :gaah: I can't believe people still don't get the difference between bacterial and viral illnesses. Colds are viruses. Antibiotics won't cure them.


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## froggymountain

TWO sources of alternative antibiotics:

Search Results - Navigator

Revival Animal - Search Results for fish antibiotics

Fish and bird antibiotics are technically the same as human

for example:
Fish Mox
(Thomas Labs) Amoxicillin


----------



## lazydaisy67

People don't understand that not all antibiotics KILL the bacteria. Some just inhibit the continued growth/reproduction of the bacteria.


----------



## turkeydog

One of my employee's is married to a vet. I asked him about using Procaine G and Fish Mox. He told me he couldn't tell me I could use them, but then he just grinned at me and wouldn't give me anymore straight answers. He said ' I go to a Doctor every time I get sick!" But with a huge grin, he wouldn't say what type of Doctor!


----------



## snipers_girl101

Coming in on this topic a little late but...I have been ordering fish meds for years. I keep a store of them, rotate as necessary. It was a good friend of mine who has owned her own pet store for years that put me onto it. Now, being an RN (retired at 40 to be a housewife haha!) the overuse of antibiotics is a huge problem. Not every earache, sniffle, fever etc needs them, and many are better off without. I don't run my kids to the clinic everytime they sniffle..as a matter of fact they have always complained that they can't get away with sick days like other kids can/could. 

I keep the ABTs on hand for true emergency, in case of TSHTF because one thing I DO know, I don't want to be caught without them and an inability to get them. They're cheap, the expired ones are recyclable to aquarium enthusiasts who do need them from time to time but don't really care if they are out of date. I stock them just as I do all my other medical necessities. Because I know doing without them would be brutal in case of true bacterial illness or infections.


----------



## OHprepper

LadyIvy said:


> Arnica is amazing for injuries. Bruises, sprains, pulled muscles etc....any kind of traumatic incident to the body, arnica is your go to homeopathic for it. It can be taken internally or it comes in creams and gels that can be rubbed on. Which type you want to use depends on the injury, when it's been bad enough I've done both together.


"Arnica is generally safe when used on the skin. However, using it for a long time may irritate the skin, causing eczema, peeling, blisters, or other skin conditions. Arnica should not be used on broken skin, such as leg ulcers. Also, people who are hypersensitive or allergic to the herb should avoid it.

Arnica is rarely used as an internal herbal remedy because it can cause dizziness, tremors, and heart irregularities. It may also irritate mucous membranes and cause vomiting. Large doses can even be fatal. Do not take arnica by mouth except under close supervision of your doctor. Homeopathic remedies, which use extremely small amounts of arnica, can usually be taken safely."

http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/arnica-000222.htm


----------



## seth72104

kappydell said:


> I also keep procaine pennicillin G and syringes (they need to be larger than for human use, the vet peniccilin is thicker), erythromycin and tetracycline (oral) on hand.


Be sure to never take outdated tetracyclines(doxycycline, minocycline, tetracycline) as they break down into compounds which will cause Fanconi syndrome, a type of kidney damage.


----------



## goatlady

It was ONLY tetracycline that would breakdown to possibly toxic, and only ONE case was every found of kidney damage from same, BUT the manufacturer has long since CHANGED the base formula so this no longer is a danger with tetracycline. It was the tablet form not the liquid.


----------



## lotsoflead

a great page to read http://howtosurvivethedepression.com/category/natural-antibiotics/


----------



## iibulldoggy22

No, Canadian, we have a barbaric health system here in the states, which is why we're falling behind even some third world countries in infant mortality and life span. We are starting to see diseases not seen since the 19th Century again. I once timed a physician visit from the moment she walked through the door to the time she left and it was 20 seconds. What kind of diagnosis can be made in that time? The visit was $60.00, but that was about 10 years ago. Before she did leave, however, she told me that I seemed to have a mass in my abdomen, hinting at cancer. As it turned out, there was nothing wrong, but the consult with another quack was almost $300.00. Health care here is a total rip off, and the insurance companies are where the mob put their money when they went 'legitimate'.


----------



## Virgil_cain

iibulldoggy22 said:


> No, Canadian, we have a barbaric health system here in the states, which is why we're falling behind even some third world countries in infant mortality and life span. We are starting to see diseases not seen since the 19th Century again. I once timed a physician visit from the moment she walked through the door to the time she left and it was 20 seconds. What kind of diagnosis can be made in that time? The visit was $60.00, but that was about 10 years ago. Before she did leave, however, she told me that I seemed to have a mass in my abdomen, hinting at cancer. As it turned out, there was nothing wrong, but the consult with another quack was almost $300.00. Health care here is a total rip off, and the insurance companies are where the mob put their money when they went 'legitimate'.


We're not falling behind third world counties in terms of health care. When you compare U.S. health statistics, you must be aware that different countries use different methods to compile this information. For instance, you mentioned infant mortality. This is one example of where there is a huge discrepancy in how information is gathered. In the U.S. once a child makes it through the birth canal if it draws a single breath it is counted as a live birth. U.S. doctors will often go to heroic lengths to save a baby that would be written off in other countries. In many countries, babies aren't counted as live births unless the child makes it through the first several hours and in some cases the first 24 hours. This skews U.S. infant mortality negatively compared to many countries, both in first world western countries and in third world countries.

Look, I don't claim that the U.S. system is perfect, but if you get cancer, you better pray it's in the U.S. as our cancer survival rates are pretty much ahead of everyone's. In fact, if you look at survival rates for serious illnesses, very few countries compare favorably. Our life expectancy might be months or a year or two less than some other western countries, but in general is his attributable to things unrelated to health care (auto accident rates, homicide rates, deaths due to risky behavior (drugs and alcohol, etc.), lifestyle issues like bad diet/excessive weight, etc). We actually have a very good health care system, though we may be paying too much for it (and a lack of government intervention is not the cause of that, mostly the opposite).


----------



## mojo4

Well I just want some meds in case it hits and all other meds and Dr offices and pharmacies are emptied out. I have great med insurance and I plan on only handing out this stuff if no other option could possibly even exist. An absolute last chance scenario. So what type do I need? Do they make a fish pennicilin?


----------



## goatlady

You used to be able to purchase most of the 'cillins, 'cyclines, 'mycins for fish, but with the new regulations now in place it's hard to find any of them. Amazon quit carrying them as did many of the online Vet supply places.


----------



## mbeaver

There's a Doctor who is a prepper himself and has a website I subscribe to- Armagedon Medicine. He has lots of links for info on how to do it yourself before AND after SHTF. I've found how to make wound washing and instrument sterilizing fluid that they used to use in the field during wars back in the day. He also sells medicine kits with antibiotics for people with diabetes and those who don't. It's worth a look.


----------



## nanosilver

EvilTOJ said:


> Wow, what a load of crap. Gangrene doesn't even kick in until at least 48 hours after onset of infection. And by then the wound would be pus filled and weeping way before then.


You might want to google "nosocomial infection".


----------



## NurseAmyfromDoomandBloom

mbeaver said:


> There's a Doctor who is a prepper himself and has a website I subscribe to- Armagedon Medicine. He has lots of links for info on how to do it yourself before AND after SHTF. I've found how to make wound washing and instrument sterilizing fluid that they used to use in the field during wars back in the day. He also sells medicine kits with antibiotics for people with diabetes and those who don't. It's worth a look.


Hi mbeaver, I think you are referring to "Dr Bob", not armageddon (thats a woman), but he doesn't do that anymore because the authorities found out, and it is illegal to sell Rx meds online.
Thanks,
Nurse Amy
www.domandbloom.net


----------



## BillS

You have to use the right antibiotics against the right bacteria. If you're not careful the antibiotics will kill off the good bacteria in your system and your infection will get worse.
You also need to know that antibiotics are worthless against viruses. Unless you're fighting ear infections or very high fevers in a small child the vast majority of antibiotic use really is either precautionary or because the patients demand it. I don't have antibiotics in my preps. I don't think they're that necessary.


----------



## goatlady

Being careful with antibiotics has absolutely nothing to do with whether the medication hits "bad" or "good" bacteria. The medication cannot differentiate - it wipes out ALL bacteria it comes in contact with. Main reason that eating yogurt or probiotics or even taking lactose tabs is suggested after a course of antibiotics, which by the way mean generally against bacteria.


----------



## BillS

goatlady said:


> Being careful with antibiotics has absolutely nothing to do with whether the medication hits "bad" or "good" bacteria. The medication cannot differentiate - it wipes out ALL bacteria it comes in contact with. Main reason that eating yogurt or probiotics or even taking lactose tabs is suggested after a course of antibiotics, which by the way mean generally against bacteria.


No, an antibiotic will NOT wipe out all bacteria. There are gram+ and gram- bacteria. If you take the wrong antibiotic you can wipe out your beneficial bacteria and cause your infection to grow exponentially.

http://suite101.com/article/how-do-antibiotics-work-to-kill-bacteria-a74616

"Most of the bacterial world falls into one of two categories, Gram+ and Gram-, based on differences in the cell wall structure of bacterial cells. Penicillin works only against Gram-positive bacteria by interfering with the structure of a strong cell wall molecule called peptidoglycan. When the structural integrity of the bacterial cell wall is compromised, the cell loses its protection and ultimately dies."

"Gram+ cells are only part of the bacterial world. There are many types of harmful bacteria that are considered Gram-negative. Penicillin does not work against Gram-negative bacteria, since the Gram- cell wall has an extra layer of protection that interferes with the drug reaching the peptidoglydan in Gram-negative bacterial cell walls. Therefore other antibiotics have been developed to work against Gram- cells. Some drugs, called broad-spectrum antibiotics, even work against both types of cells."

In addition there's a lot of work that suggests that antibiotics cause permanent damage to the beneficial bacteria in your system.

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/08/killing-beneficial-bacteria/

"In a provocative editorial published this week in Nature, Martin Blaser of New York University's Langone Medical Center argues that antibiotics' impact on gut bacteria is permanent - and so serious in its long-term consequences that medicine should consider whether to restrict antibiotic prescribing to pregnant women and young children."


----------



## goatlady

I stand corrected, BillS, but I doubt very seriously that in a SHTF situation the average "prepper' will have the equipment or the expertise to be able to differentiate between gram-negative and gram-positive bacteria. Best under those types of situations is to be able to make an very educated guess as to what the illness/disease is and then use the antibiotic that is normally used for treatment. One does not need to know if the most common bacteria that causes pneumonia if negative or positive, one does need to know the most standard antibiotic used to treat that bacterial pneumonia, bronchitis, or sore throat/tonsillitis. But then I tend to approach most all situations from a very practical but valid stance and I have spent many years learning and practicing so I know what works for me and mine.

Here's a really good article that explains the effect of antibiotics on the "friendly" bacteria in the intestines of humans. http://www.typesofbacteria.co.uk/how-do-antibiotics-affect-friendly-gut-bacteria.html


----------



## nanosilver

*Broad spectrum antimicrobial*

There is now available a technology which diminishes the need to store multiple types of antibiotics. This is based on the long time use of silver as a broad spectrum anti microbial, but has gone far beyond conventional colloids. In extensive testing it has proven effective against gram positive and negative bacteria, virus, yeasts, mold and fungus. It is also a potent and fast water purifier. These products do not harm beneficial intestinal flora.

Because these products work catalytically, pathogens cannot mutate around them. They are completely non-toxic and will not create the pharmaceutical industry "blue man" scare story condition, argyria.

Unlike conventional silver colloids, these products will not settle out of suspension. We know that they have in excess of 10 years shelf life from testing of archived batch samples going back almost 12 years. They are extremely stable.

The FDA recently approved the prescription strength gel version for treatment of wounds and burns. There are currently 4 EPA approvals for use as hard surface disinfectant in hospitals and clinics, elimination of mold, yeast, fungus, and use as a dental office water line disinfectant. These products are protected by three US Patents. Two for the manufacturing process and one which covers the unique molecular structure.

Our website contains a wealth of information for those who wish to consider inclusion of these products in their survival supplies. I have many studies which are not available yet online. Feel free to contact me with specific requests for this data. I invite you you view the video at the bottom of our home page. It is a presentation from a medical conference with graphics from case studies in burn and antibiotic resistant wound healing.


----------



## eric1

Good post. I've tryed silver internally and didn't get a good reaction from it. Not buying into all the pro-silver hype. Don't believe metals were meant to be ingested.



resqdoc said:


> +1000 to Monolith...
> 
> *Topical* silver is an excellent anti-infective and is well proven to be of benefit. 'Nano-silver' is colloidal silver with a new buzz name. Over 200 US environmental groups have petitioned the FDA to stop OTC silver products, as it has been showing up in waste water treatment plants and killing off the good bacteria that are part of the natural waste treatment process. I would hate to see this & would rather find a way to stop the shedding of silver down the drain. Note the same problem can develop in individual septic tanks.
> 
> *Ingested* silver has no proven clinical efficacy. Anecdotal suggests it does suggest good results for some, but since there are no controlled studies worth fly crap about it, no one really knows. 'I used it and got better' means less than nothing.
> 
> There are considerably more than 2 cases of silver intoxication in the literature. If you are going to take silver internally I suggest you be sure of what you are getting, use it for acute illness and not daily wellness, and discontinue if you experience digestive upset or other warning signs.


----------



## machinist

*We're Still Learning*

There are things that MD's treat very successfully and likewise with chiropractors, herbalists, nutritionists, bone specialists, and automobile transmission experts. It is my humble opinion that in this age of partially educated specialists, we as individuals need to learn all we can to determine which expert and which remedies to apply to any given problem. Furthermore, those "experts" have limitations to their knowledge and abilities, as someone said of their inability to deal with a viral epidemic.

Learning for ourselves is a daunting task, but needful.

My reasoning is as follows. If your car's engine is coughing and sputtering, is it more likely that you need an engine mechanic, or a transmission shop? Did you know that some transmission problems can leak tranny fluid into the engine and cause engine sputtering?

The problem then becomes which expert to see, because if you go to the transmission guy, there's an excellent chance he will work on your transmission whether it needs it or not! Same deal with medical specialists. It is truly a case of the Blind Men and the Elephant, each one "seeing" only a portion of the whole picture.

I submit that it is in our best interest to learn all we can about our personal problems so we can select a proper expert, and to assure that said expert selects the proper treatment. The internet can help a lot, provided that you are careful to prove the truth of what you read there.


----------



## shirls

Just found this on the net, well it's interesting, and I would think about it if I was desperate lol making penicillin with lemons and bread, also the previous post to this tells you you can use the spores fore wild yeast in bread making and other fermented goodies.
https://sites.google.com/site/windintheroses/penicillin_diy


----------



## rachilders

mbeaver said:


> There's a Doctor who is a prepper himself and has a website I subscribe to- Armagedon Medicine. He has lots of links for info on how to do it yourself before AND after SHTF. I've found how to make wound washing and instrument sterilizing fluid that they used to use in the field during wars back in the day. He also sells medicine kits with antibiotics for people with diabetes and those who don't. It's worth a look.


I've placed several orders from this site, the most recent just a few weeks ago, and get my items the same week... http://pet-healthcare.revivalanimal.com


----------



## machinist

Are their vet meds marked with an expiration date? That can be critical in the case of the tetracyclines, I have heard.


----------



## goatlady

Dates USED to be important for tetracycline, but they changed the buffering formula years ago and there is no problems of tetra becoming toxic these days, past expiration dates.


----------



## machinist

Thanks! I needed that! 

I just bought some powdered Tetracycline for the chickens and was amazed that the expir. date was 5 years away.


----------



## PawanVarma

monolith224 said:


> I just want to point out that homeopathy does not work. It has killed many people.


This is very interesting, if somewhat overly dramatic statement.

It would help if you could please give some examples of people who have been killed by Homeopathy. You might also want to contrast that with statistics of people who have been killed by pharmaceuticals today.

The issue is not with Homeopathy or any other system. The issue is being capable of taking care of yourself and your family regardless of your circumstances. Slamming a system you know nothing about is counterproductive.

Please try to use this forum for constructive dialog.


----------



## cnsper

You also need to look into apple cider vinegar. Not only is it good for sunburns but it is also good for swelling and cuts. Not to mention you should already have it as part of your food stores. I had a very deep cut on a finger that was really inflamed even though I had been cleaning it regularly and pouring on the hydrogen peroxide. Well after a couple of days with the vinegar cleaning it is almost healed.


----------



## LongRider

crosscanadian said:


> My kids are at home sick today with Strep Throat. That got me thinking, what if we were in a bug out situation and somebody came down with something that they needed antibiotics to treat? Are there any substitutes for antibiotics?


Off the top of my head, for Strep Throat,I would take some raw cloves of garlic 4X, gargle with salt water 2 to 4X, for fever white willow tea PRN, honey and lemon to sooth the throat PRN. Maybe Swedish Bitters. Do not quote me or treat based on what I say. That is just a guess on my part I would check with the wife to be sure first. She is the one who is trained and knowledgeable. I am just suggesting some options you may want to investigate with someone who knows what they are doing.



monolith224 said:


> I just want to point out that homeopathy does not work. It has killed many people.


*BS* 
Native people lived long healthy lives on this continent for 50,000 years before the introduction of modern medicine, living longer healthier lives than Europeans. As an example when Lewis and Clark met the Lakota the average European was 5'2 to 5'4 in height and had a life expectancy of 38 to 50 years. The average Lakota stood over six foot tall and had a life expectancy of 80 or more years. Many modern medicines come from homeopathic natural remedies. As an example Aspirin came from white willow tea, most all modern pain killers come form opium. A bro of mine is a Harvard graduate ER surgeon that runs a major ER in CA. Privately for family he uses homeopathic remedies before ever resorting to modern antibiotics and medicines in most cases. I have seen traditional native medicine cure diseases that modern medicine can not touch and any reputable doctor will tell you that modern antibiotics cause as many problems as they solve. Not the least of which is the preponderance of super viruses.

The problem with homeopathic medicine is that people dabble in it with no real understanding of what they are doing. But with proper training and understanding homeopathic practitioners can be highly effective and useful in treating wide variety of ailments. I am not saying that modern medicine can not be effective and useful. Modern medicine cures and eases the suffering of a great many people. I have a doctor I see him regularly and follow his suggestions in most cases. But to say homeopathy does not work and kills people is completely asinine and uninformed. It has in fact healed, eased suffering and saved lives for thousands of years in all cultures.

When SHTF, we will use a combination of homeopathic remedies and modern medical practices to heal sickness and injury. As an example last week I had a bobcat claw me. I cleaned the wound with a scrub brush, soap and water. Used a homeopathic salve my wife has made and kept the wound clean. I have no infection, the wound is healing well without the use of any modern antibiotics that so many insist I must have to keep from losing my arm.


----------



## aaronblue

*Where there is no doctor????*



kappydell said:


> ..Hesperidan press has some info on using older/outdated meds in its book "where there is no doctor" You can download it for free, it is excellent...


Do you have a copy to share? I cannot find it on their site.

Thanks for the info.

Aaron:usaflag:


----------



## dataman19

monolith224 said:


> I just want to point out that homeopathy does not work. It has killed many people.


..
So have a lot of Doctor's and Clinics.
Just because they have a degree - doesn't mean they know what they are doing.
...
Since Doctor's make "more money" by prescribing medication that they are "paid to prescribe" and also male money by "Selling Patient Care History" to Medical research Firms - essentially, doctor's need only open their doors.
..
If there is a problem with the patient's insurance - just bill the patient for the difference. If the Patient doesn't want their medical records released to a research firm - Too Bad. If the patient complains - just drop them.
...
Don't rule out Homeopathic Medicine just because practitioners aren't in it to gouge patients. There are a lot of medical cures that don't funnel money into a Doctor's pocket. There are many that have survived throughout history, and work very well.
..
Hint: Why do Doctor's Refer to their Business as "A Practice"????
..
If a patient dies - the doctors usually comment that they did their best.
...
If an Airline Pilot crashes - the passengers sue the pants off the Airline. If a doctor's patient dies, everyone refers to it as "an act of God".
...
Just my opinion...
Dave
Phoenix, AZ
(The Healthcare Fraud Capital of the world).


----------



## faithmarie

Doctors vs. Gun Owners

Doctors

(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is

700,000.

(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians

per year are

120,000.

(C) Accidental deaths per physician is

0.171

Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept. of
Health and Human Services.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Now think about this:

Guns

(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is

80,000,000.

(Yes, that's 80 million)

(B) The number of accidental gun deaths

per year, all age groups, is

1,500.

(C) The number of accidental deaths

per gun owner is

.0000188

Statistics courtesy of FBI


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So, statistically, doctors are approximately

9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Therefore , 'Guns don't kill people, doctors do.'

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN,

BUT

Almost everyone has at least one doctor.
This means you are over 9,000 times more likely to be killed by a doctor as by a gun owner!!!

I don't know how true this is ... but I believe it...


----------



## gabbyj310

I am a US Merchant Marine,saw this place overseas and did their tour.Just happen to pick up a card on my way out! I get all the meds I need without a "scrip".try...internnational drugmart.com.....I think they are safer than pet meds,


----------



## LongRider

A slight aside when that bobcat clawed me after a couple of days my wife had me take chunks of pine sap she had softened up and applied to the wounds like a bandage she says that the sap has antiseptic properties and helps promote healing. A doc suggested next time I may want to lay in a stitch or two as he thought the wounds were a bit worst than I thought. A bit over a quarter inch deep and an eighth inch wide (now after healing) for an inch or two at some points. But it does not look like they will leave a scar once it finishes healing up..


----------



## db2469

I haven't read every post on this thread so I might be asking something already answered so indulge me if you would: has anyone here tried the fish antibiotics from the Revival site and if so, did they work?


----------



## dawnselene

I don't know if someone already said this, but oregano oil is a natural antibiotic, but you have to begin using it as soon as there's a sign of illness.


----------



## Beaniemaster2

I want to know more about injectable Penicillin they sell in feed stores for animals... I was told to buy regular cow penicillin but only use 1mg per 100lbs of human weight... 

I would appreciate any imput here, thanks...


----------



## mtexplorer

purecaffeine said:


> Traditional medicines work ... that's why they're called "medicine". Homeopathic remedies have no physiological benefit and if "effective" it is due to the placebo effect or is purely coincidence.
> 
> How unfortunate that your youth and ignorance of Holistic medicine has brought you to this myopic conclusion of natural medicine. If SHTF the availability of pharmaceuticals to save your life, the life of family, friends, neighbors will be severely limited to what you can barter for or what is still effective based expiration dates.
> 
> We are organic life forms. Our bodies recognize organic substances and use them in our bodies to keep us alive and to prevent disease.
> 
> Your statement "Homeopathic remedies have no physiological benefit and if "effective" it is due to the placebo effect or is purely coincidence" is the statement of someone who hasn't taken the time to educate themselves and has apparently drawn a conclusion based on false information regurgitated by the pharmaceutical industry to protect their profits.
> 
> Many of the pharmaceuticals synthesized today originally came from natural plants extracts. This is the basis for herbal medicine. This isn't folklore, it's fact and is taught in every medical school in the world. Even the Mayo clinic, one of the most prestigious medical institutions in the world acknowledges the benefits of holistic medicine and is adopting a combined approach to cancer treatment with modern and holistic medicine.
> 
> Holistic medicine might be the one salvation we have if we suffer a total economic collapse and pharmaceuticals are no longer available.
> 
> For the record, I am 54 years old. I have been using herbal and Holistic medicine since I was 25. I have not been to a doctor since because I was too sick and needed antibiotics or other drugs. I get colds, but I know what causes them and I treat them with herbal remedies. I don't take flu vaccines and the last time I had anything that resembled the flu was in 2007.
> 
> It's not luck! It's about educating yourself on how to keep your body healthy. Holistic medicine isn't something you learn overnight, or in a 4 year college. It's something you continually study and are continually learning.
> 
> I for one will use my knowledge to help others when the time comes.
> 
> There is no "one form of any holistic medicine that will cure everything, it's about treating the whole body, mind and spirit. That is what Holistic medicine is.
> 
> Please take the time to do further research and discover the benefits of a combined approach to healing. It may serve you later in life when it is most needed.
> 
> M


----------



## preppermom

Those of you who know about silver, I am looking to purchase a good silver generator does anybody have any recommendations or experience in this area?


----------



## preppermom

AlterCow I am looking at generators to buy now, I have looked at the one you are have but was unclear as to whether or not you could make different ppms. A low ppm is great but for serious infections such as mersa or ecoli it is my understanding that you need a much higher ppm and that is what I have not figured out yet, any input?


----------



## BlacksmithKevin

RonnieGret said:


> You do what now?


We some of the same. We make a tea with fresh ginger and some hot peppers with a touch of honey. It will loosen up your sinuses n


----------



## faithmarie

http://www.herbsandoilsworld.com/top-15-herbal-antibiotics/


----------



## drfacefixer

lovetogrow said:


> It is mho that this fellow is a true authority on the skinny about vaccines. Just my two cents.
> 
> Dr Horowitz, D.M.D., M.A.,M.P.H.
> 
> Excerpt regarding Horowitz below (and complete article) from this link: Dr Horowitz
> 
> Excerpt: He received his doctorate from Tufts University and was awarded a fellowship in behavioral research at the University of Rochester. Dr. Horowitz earned a master's degree in public health and behavioral science from Harvard University. He also holds a master's degree in health education from Beacon College.
> For more than a decade, Dr. Horowitz directed a multidisciplinary health center. He served on the faculty at Tufts University, Harvard University, and the Leslie College Institute for Arts and Human Development.
> 
> Dr. Horowitz The Hidden Dangers of Vaccines Listen: http://www.markswatson.com/vaccine1.mp3
> 
> Vaccination Myths - Vaccination Myths


 I went to school in Boston as well and let me tell you he is a quack. Unfortunately, even the well educated professions have some people that find their niche chasing outlandish and paranoid theories and selling alternative treatments to the pool of desperate people who hasn't found what they were looking for in modern medicine. .


----------



## swjohnsey

Quack Watch is a good site.


----------



## laffingravy

*American antibiotics*



lazydaisy67 said:


> It's not that easy. If you don't have insurance an office visit can cost $80 or more. You have to visit the doctor before he/she will prescribe anything at all. On top of that, again with no insurance, antibiotics can cost $100 sometimes. If you're lucky, whatever you have can be treated with Amoxicillin, which is cheap, like $20. If you don't have insurance, just going to the doctor for a relatively simple issue can be pretty expensive. For those who have insurance, it's a lot cheaper, not necessarily free, and why you wouldn't go is beyond me.


I dunno, but seems to me, the biggest wall to getting a scrip is the fact that most docs here are under the gun from the CDC. Of course, insurance companies have their input into the mix. Some abide by them excessively, waiting until you are half dead before subscribing what you both know you need. Maybe it's just one hand feeding the other and maybe there may be some truth to over prescribed antibiotics leading to resistance, but I think when you both know you need them and know it with the green sputum and such, there is no excuse for holding back on it.


----------



## professor

There is a program being rolled out to hospitals all over the country that is known as 'antibiotic stewardship'. The truth is that bacteria mutate and some of them mutate or 'evolve' over time and become resistant to antibiotics. 

An excellent example is 'methicillin resistant staphylococcus aereous' or MRSA. Staphylococcus mutated over time to become resistant to most common antibiotics. At first these infections were usually picked up in hospitalized patients who were immunosuppressed. Unfortunately, the bacteria 'jumped' out into the community over time and now present as boils on the skin or severe internal infections that can quickly kill healthy folks.

So, we came up with better, stronger antibiotics and bacteria mutated again - only this time there where other bacteria that also mutated - and some of them are VERY scary.

Which brings us to today - we now have a very bad bug that has mutated and become resistant to our latest designer antibiotics. Right now it only infects those in hospitals that are immunosuppressed - but we've been through this before! As a result the CDC has asked (mandated) that hospitals monitor their uses of antibiotics and not use them indiscriminately.

Using antibiotics to treat BACTERIAL infections is only common sense - they have no effect on viral infections and using them for a viral infection enables normal bacteria to mutate over time into something very frightening - so use them judiciously. The thing that is frightening to people in healthcare is the rapidity at which these bacteria mutate - it seems to move ever more rapidly - the 'super bug' out there now scares the crap out of me and I have been in critical care for about 30 years! Every medication we use has the power to heal or improve people's health, but they also have risks, and in this case the risks are huge.


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## laffingravy

*Well said, Prof*



professor said:


> There is a program being rolled out to hospitals all over the country that is known as 'antibiotic stewardship'. The truth is that bacteria mutate and some of them mutate or 'evolve' over time and become resistant to antibiotics.
> 
> An excellent example is 'methicillin resistant staphylococcus aereous' or MRSA. Staphylococcus mutated over time to become resistant to most common antibiotics. At first these infections were usually picked up in hospitalized patients who were immunosuppressed. Unfortunately, the bacteria 'jumped' out into the community over time and now present as boils on the skin or severe internal infections that can quickly kill healthy folks.
> 
> So, we came up with better, stronger antibiotics and bacteria mutated again - only this time there where other bacteria that also mutated - and some of them are VERY scary.
> 
> Which brings us to today - we now have a very bad bug that has mutated and become resistant to our latest designer antibiotics. Right now it only infects those in hospitals that are immunosuppressed - but we've been through this before! As a result the CDC has asked (mandated) that hospitals monitor their uses of antibiotics and not use them indiscriminately.
> 
> Using antibiotics to treat BACTERIAL infections is only common sense - they have no effect on viral infections and using them for a viral infection enables normal bacteria to mutate over time into something very frightening - so use them judiciously. The thing that is frightening to people in healthcare is the rapidity at which these bacteria mutate - it seems to move ever more rapidly - the 'super bug' out there now scares the crap out of me and I have been in critical care for about 30 years! Every medication we use has the power to heal or improve people's health, but they also have risks, and in this case the risks are huge.


I agree that some bugs are becoming resistant to antibiotics, but the balance between common sense treatment and extended and protracted treatment is perhaps caused by the medical board in charge. Mayhap it is just the lack of knowledge of some doctors who can't see the real picture, or pressure to save or make a buck.. For example, many people have a bug, go to the doc, no antibiotics, come back a week later, no improvement, wind up in the hospital, now they get antibiotics. Maybe a little more action should be taken before a lame diagnosis is made. With the increase of interference from insurance companies, doctors can't make a common sense decision without being called on it.


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## drfacefixer

laffingravy said:


> I agree that some bugs are becoming resistant to antibiotics, but the balance between common sense treatment and extended and protracted treatment is perhaps caused by the medical board in charge. Mayhap it is just the lack of knowledge of some doctors who can't see the real picture, or pressure to save or make a buck.. For example, many people have a bug, go to the doc, no antibiotics, come back a week later, no improvement, wind up in the hospital, now they get antibiotics. Maybe a little more action should be taken before a lame diagnosis is made. With the increase of interference from insurance companies, doctors can't make a common sense decision without being called on it.


That is just the opposite of what Doctors to. What we are trying to do is to keep you from being hospitalized for antibiotic therapy. If the world was perfect, you would routinely see your doctor - not just pony up money when it's really bad and you think you need to. Your doctor would have a well documented history on you and your ailments. That in conjunction with your physical exam and symptoms would direct your treatment and education on how to improve your health. There is nothing worse that spending valuable time trying to reeducate a patient that is horribly misinformed by the internet - and having them tell you that some person on some website said this and that I should do that.

Resistance is a real threat and every now and again you hear about super germs that we have no antibiotics to treat. It is happening, but not to the point that doctors hold out on antibiotics strictly for this reason. Evidence is now showing certain pre op and post op medicating can have more risks than benefits. Treating a viral infection with a short course of antibiotics upsets normal flora and puts you at risk for a secondary bacterial infection. Which brings us to the bigger picture of over treating with antibiotics.

Lets play out this senario - you came in with a raging head cold after 3 days onset and said you wanted antibiotics to make it go away. The probability is high that is viral unless you have predisposing factors or a history of significant infections. Lets say you tell the doctor convincingly that you have a history of sinus flair ups, but only go when its the worst because of the associated cost of treatment. Instead of waiting a few more days to see if it gets better on its own (viral usually doesn't last more than 2 weeks) the doctor feels you could benefit from augmentin which would treat the 3 highest offending bacteria. (at this point cultures are an added expense and may not benefit). Augmentin is prescribed. According to the sanford guide Wholesale cost of 1 week treatment is $89. You freak that without insurance this medication will likley cost about $100. The doctor then gives an alternative older and cheaper medication bactrim which costs $45. Still too much... penicillin at $10. You take the Pen which kills the weaker organisms makes you fell better for a day and then you rebound with the growth of the resistant strain. Your feeling horrible, dehydrated, complaining of pain, and get admitted for an unresolving infection. We can skip the cost of labs, CT scan, possible debridment, and daily rates.... the wholesale cost of daily IV antibiotic therapy ranges from $397 to $1000 per day. With IV treatment your infection subsides and you skirt the need for surgical intervention. You leave the hospital with a bill for $20K. But you decide to stick it to the man, because doctors everywhere hold antibiotics under lock and key. Tax payers eat the cost and the hospitals have to up costs to the insured to cover those unprepared to protect their own health. This is whats wrong with the system. CDC nor insurance give no incentive to withhold medication.

Probably half the time I write prescriptions to uninsured patients for infections, they fill the $15 percocet prescription and leave the $30 antibiotic. Then they get admitted to the hospital a few days later because things get worse. Go figure.

Lastly, the drug companies are not making money on antibiotics respectively. They are chemically complex and extremely expensive to develop. There are currently no new antibiotics under testing for FDA approval. ISDA has a major push on getting governments and global industry to find 10 new drugs by 2020. http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/50/8/1081.full


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## AndyTower

What kind of antibiotic-like things can I use for small wounds in my legs?


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## PawanVarma

drfacefixer said:


> That is just the opposite of what Doctors to. What we are trying to do is to keep you from being hospitalized for antibiotic therapy. If the world was perfect, you would routinely see your doctor - not just pony up money when it's really bad and you think you need to. Your doctor would have a well documented history on you and your ailments. That in conjunction with your physical exam and symptoms would direct your treatment and education on how to improve your health. There is nothing worse that spending valuable time trying to reeducate a patient that is horribly misinformed by the internet - and having them tell you that some person on some website said this and that I should do that.
> 
> Resistance is a real threat and every now and again you hear about super germs that we have no antibiotics to treat. It is happening, but not to the point that doctors hold out on antibiotics strictly for this reason. Evidence is now showing certain pre op and post op medicating can have more risks than benefits. Treating a viral infection with a short course of antibiotics upsets normal flora and puts you at risk for a secondary bacterial infection. Which brings us to the bigger picture of over treating with antibiotics.
> 
> Lets play out this senario - you came in with a raging head cold after 3 days onset and said you wanted antibiotics to make it go away. The probability is high that is viral unless you have predisposing factors or a history of significant infections. Lets say you tell the doctor convincingly that you have a history of sinus flair ups, but only go when its the worst because of the associated cost of treatment. Instead of waiting a few more days to see if it gets better on its own (viral usually doesn't last more than 2 weeks) the doctor feels you could benefit from augmentin which would treat the 3 highest offending bacteria. (at this point cultures are an added expense and may not benefit). Augmentin is prescribed. According to the sanford guide Wholesale cost of 1 week treatment is $89. You freak that without insurance this medication will likley cost about $100. The doctor then gives an alternative older and cheaper medication bactrim which costs $45. Still too much... penicillin at $10. You take the Pen which kills the weaker organisms makes you fell better for a day and then you rebound with the growth of the resistant strain. Your feeling horrible, dehydrated, complaining of pain, and get admitted for an unresolving infection. We can skip the cost of labs, CT scan, possible debridment, and daily rates.... the wholesale cost of daily IV antibiotic therapy ranges from $397 to $1000 per day. With IV treatment your infection subsides and you skirt the need for surgical intervention. You leave the hospital with a bill for $20K. But you decide to stick it to the man, because doctors everywhere hold antibiotics under lock and key. Tax payers eat the cost and the hospitals have to up costs to the insured to cover those unprepared to protect their own health. This is whats wrong with the system. CDC nor insurance give no incentive to withhold medication.
> 
> Probably half the time I write prescriptions to uninsured patients for infections, they fill the $15 percocet prescription and leave the $30 antibiotic. Then they get admitted to the hospital a few days later because things get worse. Go figure.
> 
> Lastly, the drug companies are not making money on antibiotics respectively. They are chemically complex and extremely expensive to develop. There are currently no new antibiotics under testing for FDA approval. ISDA has a major push on getting governments and global industry to find 10 new drugs by 2020. http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/50/8/1081.full


Thanks, DrFaceFixer.

It is good to have the perspective of a practicing physician. You have clearly laid out the issues that families face when money is a deciding factor on the treatments that are applied. It is unfortunate that we have to make these choices.

The purpose of this discussion, as I understand it, is to find alternatives to modern drug therapies. In my 50 years on the planet, I have suffered many colds, flus, infections, injuries, etc. Herbal and Homeopathic treatments have been fine for all except the very severe cases like Malaria and an infection that I ignored for too long.

There are plenty of sources that claim to have "herbal antibiotics" or "alternatives to antibiotics". However, without any real medical or science background, how do I know which of these are real? And under what circumstances?

Also, how do I reconcile the differences in opinion between practicing physicians like yourself and other experts in the field of "alternative" health?


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## drfacefixer

PawanVarma said:


> Thanks, DrFaceFixer.
> 
> The purpose of this discussion, as I understand it, is to find alternatives to modern drug therapies. In my 50 years on the planet, I have suffered many colds, flus, infections, injuries, etc. Herbal and Homeopathic treatments have been fine for all except the very severe cases like Malaria and an infection that I ignored for too long.
> 
> There are plenty of sources that claim to have "herbal antibiotics" or "alternatives to antibiotics". However, without any real medical or science background, how do I know which of these are real? And under what circumstances?
> 
> Also, how do I reconcile the differences in opinion between practicing physicians like yourself and other experts in the field of "alternative" health?


The first issue is to realize exactly what it is that you desire. Sounds simple, but that's where it all begins. Homeopathic seekers are much more willing to listen to what others would laugh at if I charged them for it. Its a rare occasion that someone wants to really listen about the benefits of diet, exercise, and avoidance of substances in western medicine. Yet, Homeopaths get the benefit of talking about lifestyle modifications day in and day out - partly because they can. The patient population is much more accepting of a natural process even when it's disease.

Integrated medicine or complementary medicine combines western medicine and various forms of holistic practices. These people are a good place to start because they have a foot in both worlds. The NIH grants a lot of money for studies in alternative medicines and keep a pretty good webpage on legit practices and warning of current scams or supplements proving no known benefit. Western medicine gets a black eye from every one wanting a quick cure and easy treatment for most everything. Alt medicine has a lot of placebo effects in treatment modalities because of less stringent control on supplements, less scientific evidence, and the patients seeking it now tend to affluent and healthy or desperate. Because of the affluent patient pool that usually seek out alternatives to chronic but less threatening issues, there are a lot of snake oils salesmen taking advantage of these people. I have met only a few physicians that scoff at true alt treatments. What gives holistic treatments bad names is the amount of trickery out there and false claims. It's also a bad sign when it's one person (be it an MD or otherwise), claims something that 99.9999% of the educated community are against.

There is a lot of good advise out there unfortunately I can't sum it up in one short paragraph.


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## LongRider

AndyTower said:


> What kind of antibiotic-like things can I use for small wounds in my legs?


Birch bark boiled than use it as a wash
honey or sugar ( I have only used honey)
pine pitch
garlic (eat raw as an anti biotic) and garlic poultice on the wound
Yarrow
You may want to explore the links to gather more info


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## Meerkat

Don't forget the sun. Its an immune booster,full of vitimin D.


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## drfacefixer

Meerkat said:


> Don't forget the sun. Its an immune booster,full of vitimin D.


Not really. The sun just plays a step in the metabolic pathway of vitamin d. In Florida or Arizona, you only need about 15 minutes of direct sunlight. In Boston, you would need quite a bit more time, but rickets is a disease in areas were you may go months without great sunlight OR your skin in mostly covered(due to nasty winters). Hence, the resurgence of rickets in these areas. It's usually less about the sun and more about the poor dietary choices people are making.

The sun does. Great job at improving mood and many other things but its not a source of vitamins.


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## swjohnsey

Is homeopathy quackery?


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