# What vehicle will survive an EMP?



## gobeav494

I have a 1966 car, will this survive a natural or man made EMP and still work? Should I store an additional battery and fuses in a faraday cage? Thanks, in advance, for your help. I appreciate being a member.


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## gypsysue

Depends on how close you are to the point of impact! 

A car that old probably doesn't have much in the way of electronics. As far as battery and fuses... I'd ask that question over in the "vehicles and transportation" part of this site.

Welcome to the forum. Glad to have you with us!


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## Tirediron

Welcome to the forum, if your car is a stock in origonal condition north american model chances a pretty good that it would not be damaged by an emp, during the actual blast the condensor might load up and cause poor or no operation temporarily, now if it has been updated or modernized there could be potential problems.


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## Dixie

*I have a car much older, 1930, what are it's chances of running after an EMP?

I have a trailer that will carry all my "stuff" in case we have to bug out. Problem is, I can't ask my mechanic this question because he lives across the street. Not only is it just a little too close to home, it's not a subject I want to discuss off the forum. 
*


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## Tirediron

Emps or solar storm blasts endanger electronics first, transistors , diodes capacitors to some extent. 
early vehicles 1963ish and prior. if in origonal condition, IE not updated with electronic ignition or an alternator(as oposed to a direct current generator) should not take any damage from an emp blast, exept for the possibility of the ignition condensor building up too much charge and causing temporary ignition interupt. make sure that these early engines have solid core spark plug wires, not modern suppresion core wires because the suppression core wires will break down very quickly under sustained use with point ignition. 
After about 1963 alternators came into common use in north america. these systems are more suseptable to charging system failure, because of the possibillity of diode bridge failure due to over voltage.(these vehicles would probably still run until the battery went flat IF the charging system was damaged) In about 1974 most northamerican manufacturer went to Electronic ignition, which contains transistors diodes and capacitors, an well as most having electronic voltage regulators. Around 1986 most manufacturers started using electronic fuel management systems (computer controled) with a common diagnostic system called OBD1 (onboard diagnostics 1) 
Contrary to what other members have posted I have seen actual modern (2005 and newer) ECM /ECU failure or shutdown malfunction caused by voltage regulator malfunction, so I believe that they will be highly at risk in a solar storm or emp situation.


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## TimB

Tirediron is right. From what I have read on the subject, pre-1974 vehicles without electronic ignition are a pretty safe bet with the condenser being the most suspect part. Diesels with mechanical fuel injection are considered to be the best bet. *BUT* some of the articles I've read suggest that newer vehicles will survive also. I don't think we'll know for sure until it happens. :dunno: 
Just to be on the safe side, I'm on the look-out for an older ('80 or older) Dodge truck to use as a daily driver and already have a point-type distributor on the shelf if needed. 



Dixie said:


> *I have a car much older, 1930, what are it's chances of running after an EMP?
> *


1930 what, Dixie? Inquiring minds want to know. :wave:

Tim


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## d_saum

TimB said:


> Tirediron is right. From what I have read on the subject, pre-1974 vehicles without electronic ignition are a pretty safe bet with the condenser being the most suspect part. Diesels with mechanical fuel injection are considered to be the best bet. *BUT* some of the articles I've read suggest that newer vehicles will survive also. I don't think we'll know for sure until it happens. :dunno:
> Just to be on the safe side, I'm on the look-out for an older ('80 or older) Dodge truck to use as a daily driver and already have a point-type distributor on the shelf if needed.
> 
> 1930 what, Dixie? Inquiring minds want to know. :wave:
> 
> Tim


Ditto... Weren't they called horseless carriages in those days?  Alas, the only vehicle I currently own is a 74 Chevy Nova.. not the best bug out vehicle.. but if I get a hold of another condenser as a back up (I guess I should get an alternator too?), it'd most likely survive otherwise. What about older diesel trucks?


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## Dixie

1930 what, Dixie? Inquiring minds want to know.

Tim[/QUOTE] 
__________________








Hey Tim,

It's an A Model. I had a 1976 Ford Granada and a 1977 Linc MarkV but after reading all the post, I doubted they would survive an EMP, so I sold them last year. I'm not comfortable talking to my mechanic about EMP's but I did have a chance to mention it to my brother today. He concurs that the A Model should survive in case of a needed bug out.


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## HamiltonFelix

Recent localized EMP story. A co-worker bought a new VW Passat. Drove across the country to visit parents. Lightning struck tree along driveway where the car was parked. Next morning his car was dead, as was his parents' somewhat older GM. Insurance company went back and forth with dealership where they towed the new VW. Eventually they decided to total the vehicle. Just too much electronics and no way to be sure it would be repaired OK. The wrote him a check and he bought a Toyota Matrix to drive home. The Parents' GM care had three processors replaced, engine, transmission and climate control I believe. But they did fix it. I haven't asked him the year of the cars. Just thought it interesting that one big nearby bolt of high voltage DC would total a modern car. 

BTW, I'm a Hydroelectric Operator. Our plants, as they were up to about 1970, would probably be recoverable after an EMP. Today's plants would be junk.


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## d_saum

HamiltonFelix said:


> Recent localized EMP story. A co-worker bought a new VW Passat. Drove across the country to visit parents. Lightning struck tree along driveway where the car was parked. Next morning his car was dead, as was his parents' somewhat older GM. Insurance company went back and forth with dealership where they towed the new VW. Eventually they decided to total the vehicle. Just too much electronics and no way to be sure it would be repaired OK. The wrote him a check and he bought a Toyota Matrix to drive home. The Parents' GM care had three processors replaced, engine, transmission and climate control I believe. But they did fix it. I haven't asked him the year of the cars. Just thought it interesting that one big nearby bolt of high voltage DC would total a modern car.
> 
> BTW, I'm a Hydroelectric Operator. Our plants, as they were up to about 1970, would probably be recoverable after an EMP. Today's plants would be junk.


Wow.. very interesting! I'd love to know the years of the cars if you can find out.


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## TimB

Cool car, Dixie. :beercheer: It may not be the fastest but from what my Dad tells me, they are dependable. 



> ...Toyota Matrix...


Funny you should mention a Matrix. We had one towed in from the Interstate that had been struck by lightning *while driving*. Tech that had the car replaced several parts just to get it started. After getting it running, more damage was discovered (this not working, that not working, etc.). By the time everything was repaired, the adjuster said if they had known the extent of the damage to begin with (how could you know?) they would have totalled the car.

Tim


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## Dixie

TimB said:


> Cool car, Dixie. :beercheer: It may not be the fastest but from what my Dad tells me, they are dependable.
> 
> Tim


Thank you Tim, it is very dependable My dad bought it loooong time ago and it has passed down to us. I just wish we hadn't sold his sedan. It's good to know I have something that will run if the need ever arises.


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## greenrider

*Motorcycle*

I have a Ural with sidecar and trailer with a Faraday cage over the Ignition system. I hope it will still operate after an EMP, and I can make it to my safety place. I can haul almost 1000 pound of cargo on it. Not fast, but steady.


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## PreparednessPronto

For what it is worth, last week near Houston, a friend's car was struck by lightening while he was driving down the Interstate. Fireball on the hood and everything. The car is a 2012 model. The engine kept running and he was able to make it to Houston. The car is of course fried, but it got him where he was going. Not exactly an EMP, but close enough.

Relative to actual EMP's: based on the SCIF facilities I have designed and built, some with Faraday cages, my guess is a car's hood and the metal body around the engine will serve the same purpose as a Faraday cage.

My $0.02


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## Magus

Anything pre 80's for sure.1974 Ford bronco or a Jeep for sure!


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## Tirediron

PreparednessPronto said:


> For what it is worth, last week near Houston, a friend's car was struck by lightening while he was driving down the Interstate. Fireball on the hood and everything. The car is a 2012 model. The engine kept running and he was able to make it to Houston. The car is of course fried, but it got him where he was going. Not exactly an EMP, but close enough.
> 
> Relative to actual EMP's: based on the SCIF facilities I have designed and built, some with Faraday cages, my guess is a car's hood and the metal body around the engine will serve the same purpose as a Faraday cage.
> 
> My $0.02


I wouldn't bet my life on that.there are a lot of openings and long runs of wire to act like antennas. 32v from a welder will fry an ECU so the multi thousand volts from a emp/ solar storm would be a bit worse, lightning is directional not a wall of voltage.


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## Tirediron

Magus said:


> Anything pre 80's for sure.1974 Ford bronco or a Jeep for sure!


The only concern here is have they been updated with electronic ignition etc, although the electronic ignition should be a lot more robust than full electronic control systems


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## HamiltonFelix

> Wow.. very interesting! I'd love to know the years of the cars if you can find out.


I had chance to talk to my friend again. The VW Passat that was declared a total was a 2003. And he says his folks' GM was similar vintage (I'd initially thought it was older). I guess it was just a few feet further away from the lightning strike.


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## Buffalo444

M35 with a multi-fuel engine and an air stater. Pretty well covered then.


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## zracer7

Quick question. Considering the fact that I can't go out and get a pre1970s vehicle. If my 2007 f150 4.6 v8 were to get hypothetically hit by an EMP, what parts would need to be replaced to get it operational again?


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## Tirediron

Transistors , chips and anything else with a tiny wire in it , probably your ECM/ECU, alternator voltage regulator , probably the power door lock / window controls if they are electronic. maybe the crank shaft / camshaft position sensors. basicly any electronic component that can't be trouble shot with a 12v battery and a test light. Some will tell you that the body is a faraday cage, but since this has only been simulated in lab tests some showing failure some not it is your own research that will make you comfortable. if you Faraday caged an ECU,starter relay(that can be remotely triggered) and a voltage regulator you should be able to make it drivable


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## drdavem69

[/QUOTE]BTW, I'm a Hydroelectric Operator. Our plants, as they were up to about 1970, would probably be recoverable after an EMP. Today's plants would be junk.[/QUOTE]

You might want to check your exciters and voltage regulators, plus protective relaying, as most if not all are solid state now.

I'm also a Power Plant Shift Operator at a USACE Hyrdo station.

Regards,

Dave


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## azborderwatcher

yours will be fine as long as you carry spare points lol and it uses a generator not an alternator. After a emp getting gas will be hard I suggest a wood gassifier bolted to your back bumper fema has the plans if you have trouble I can email them to you. I did some experimenting and found that horse manure burned the cleanest only producing water vapor and burned as long as wood pellets


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## d_saum

azborderwatcher said:


> yours will be fine as long as you carry spare points lol and it uses a generator not an alternator. After a emp getting gas will be hard I suggest a wood gassifier bolted to your back bumper fema has the plans if you have trouble I can email them to you. I did some experimenting and found that horse manure burned the cleanest only producing water vapor and burned as long as wood pellets


I disagree.. I believe there will be PLENTY of gas around in cars that are dead, and at gas stations. Gas is heavy and if most people don't have a vehicle, they aren't going to be carrying it anywhere. Now.. that being said, you could make the argument that the gas will go bad after a year or two, in which case, the gassifier would be a great long term solution.

If the country was ever whacked with an EMP attack, I'd seriously start looking at going back to horses for the long term. 

EDIT: I just searched and downloaded those plans. Printing as we speak..err.. type. Better safe than sorry right?


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## Beaniemaster2

Being an old Hippy, I have a '71 VW Bug, it's supposed to still run and we have spare parts stored!  

But we don't plan to go anywhere unless we get burned out, we're bugging in for sure, roads will be really dangerous I think!

If we have a CME coming and we have some advance warning, I may try to go to town and buy up anything I can get my hands on (and write them a check of course!) hahahahaha


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## d_saum

Beaniemaster2 said:


> Being an old Hippy, I have a '71 VW Bug, it's supposed to still run and we have spare parts stored!
> 
> But we don't plan to go anywhere unless we get burned out, we're bugging in for sure, roads will be really dangerous I think!
> 
> *If we have a CME coming and we have some advance warning, I may try to go to town and buy up anything I can get my hands on (and write them a check of course!) hahahahaha*


EXACTLY!!!! :2thumb:


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## LargoMike

d_saum said:


> If the country was ever whacked with an EMP attack, I'd seriously start looking at going back to horses for the long term.


Our master plan is to turn to horses for most transpo and have anyone between a horse wrangler & a horse whisper on the dream team list. That said on of my fave scifi shows is Dark Angel with Jessica Alba in a post EMP Seattle.

Military vehicles?


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## weedygarden

*alternative transportation*

My thought for a long time for alternative transportation is a bicycle. I know it is not glamorous, highly secure, or able to transport much, but pedal power will be faster and easier than walking. EMP, no problem. No gas, no problem.

I wish I could find a design for a good cart to pull or push with a bike that I could make, have someone make for me, or have someone help me make.


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## Alaskalady

They already have carts for bicycles made commercially. I just bought a cart for pulling children behind a bicycle at a thrift store. They will carry pretty heavy loads.


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## Redtail

1975 Yamaha DT250 motorcycle. Nothing solid state on the whole machine.


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## headhunter

I' m not sure where , but I ve read where during ths Dust Bowl the build up of static was so great that it would shut cars/ vehicles down and the only way to prevent it was to drag a chain. I've also read where and seen fuel trucks doing the same (I thought something was wrong with them and backed off accordingly).
Our newer vehicles are in a steel machine shed, will this help for EMP / solar flares?


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## Redtail

I believe the steel shed could be converted into a makeshift fraraday cage, but I'm not 100% familiar with the mechanics thereof.


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## LincTex

Several solutions, here....

"All mechanical" diesel powered vehicle with a manual transmission. I have a '78 F-250 with a 4BT Cummins diesel. As long as I can coast down a hill and pop the clutch in 3rd, it will start and run.

Same for tractors. I have a little Chinese 1-cyl diesel tractor that starts (very easily) with a hand crank. There are no electronics on it.

Gas vehicles: Anything before 1983-1984-ish... that when more ECU's started showing up. Most 80's vehicles can be converted back to plain ol' 70's whatever style with the right parts. The electronic ignition modules from 70's model Ford and GM are plentiful and are very easy to store in a safe place. Make sure you have a few ignition coils, starter and alternators stored as back ups - - and that's it. I have several ignition modules and the electronic "guts" from a whole lotta alternators stored in an old ammo can.


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## LincTex

The HEI module is *VERY* versatile. 
Print these off for safe keeping....

IN FACT.... with very little mechanical knowledge, you can use a HEI module to make just about any spark-ignition engine run again. I even use one to run my old Onan generator!!

http://www.carbdford.com/tech/HEI/hei.htm

http://home.comcast.net/~loudgpz/GPZweb/Ignition/GPZheiModForPoints.html

http://home.comcast.net/~loudgpz/GPZweb/Ignition/GPZgmHEImod.html

http://home.comcast.net/~loudgpz/GPZweb/Ignition/PickupAndRotor/PickupAndRotor.html

http://home.comcast.net/~loudgpz/GPZweb/Ignition/CBheiMod.html

http://home.comcast.net/~loudgpz/GPZweb/Ignition/CBheiModCavCoil.html


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## Redtail

I did a little more research on that fraraday cage thing. From what I gather (and this is coming from a rudimentary understanding of EM shielding), if you want to retain ventilation capability, you'll have to fuse or rivet metallic windowscreen over the gap between the vertical sidewall and the roof on the soffit side (where uptake from the soffit vents would occur) in order to create what will behave as a continuous electromagnetic shield. ANy place you have a roof vent, you'll have to similarly attach metallic screening to create a continuous piece where the vent section is. If you have a ridge vent instead of buttons, mushrooms or turbine style vents, you'd probably want to run a continuous roll down the length of the ridge, brace it up, then solder or rivet a metal channel over the seam to create that same continuous surface. 
YOu'll have to find some way to "seal" the door. If you have a trolley-style sliding door, shrouding the top down by an extra 6 inches might do it, but I might still be inclined to make some kind of conductive "weatherstripping" to complete the electrical seal around all the sides of the door. 
If you have a wooden gradeboard, you'll have to have some way to sink the electrical shielding into the ground by a few inches to use the ground as a "gasket" to keep electromagnetic energy from leaking in. The earth is a notoriously good shield. TO that end, excavating the floor down a foot or so might not be a terrible idea if it's a dirt floor. If it's on a slab, you'll have to find some way to skirt it. 

ANd that leaves the door as the weak point. 

The most important part by far will be grounding it. FIrst you've gotta make all the pieces electrically continuous. Grounding straps screwed from one panel to the next should make sure that painted surfaces beneath the overlaps between panels don't create a problem with continuuity. Don't forget the roof and all of your trim. Sink a piece of copper- plated conductor bar into the ground. If you can'd do that, wire a couple pieces of re-bar about 4' long together and hammer them in, then electrically attach this thing to the shed. 

I think the test will be to take an FM radio inside and if you barely get any reception at all, you win. 

Is there anyone else here who *actually* knows what they're talking about who can comment on my wild ramblings?


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## Beaniemaster2

Here's a few links I had saved on EMP's etc:

http://mastersconnection2020.com/in...g-your-electrical-equipment-from-solar-flares

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1996/apjemp.htm

http://www.unitedstatesaction.com/emp_and_faraday_cages.htm

Free online book, Nuclear Survival Skills:
http://www.oism.org/nwss/

For anybody who has a pacemaker: http://solarstorms.org/SPacemakers.html


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## headhunter

Thanks to all. If ignorance is bliss, man I must be one happy fool! Amazing how much one can increase their knowledge in a short with help.
I spent many years teaching elementary students science and we "induced" a current into coiled wire with a magnet, and we had a hand cranked generator spinning a coiled wire inside a magnetic field to induce an electric current. (My way of saying my knowledge is limited.) The references you've given me were read, and left me shaking my head. I'm still in the "twlight zone". I'm still in the "twlight zone". I don'rt know if a solar flare would travel at the speed of electromagnetic waves 30X 10 9th cm per sec at the avr distance from the sun that's a little over 8 minutes so if I wasn't glued to the radio or TV my goose would be cooked and I wouldn't know until it was too late. We use our vehicles and computers and ---. And to say I'm screwed up and abstract random would be an understatement. 
We just passed the summer solstace so for the rest of the year (until the winter solatace) the effect of a solar flare will automatically diminish because of the tilt of the Earth. The shape of the Earth must help protect part of it as does the fact we are spinning. Since the number of photons is finite, even though we are starting with a huge number, what happens if 50% are blocked? The Faraday cages block 100%.
Anyhow , thanks for helping a crazy person.


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