# How far per day



## jeff47041 (Jan 5, 2013)

I'm excited because one of my nieces emailed me yesterday and asked "if something bad happens, and the cars wont go, what kind of stuff should I have to get us back home?"
She, DH, (both in their late 30's and decent shape physically) 2 yr old, and 4 yr old live in Cincinnati. 35 miles from home.

I'm making a list for a BOB among other things for her, any input on that would be great. 

But what I'm really looking for from you guys is ; How far could a family of 4, like described above realistically get in 1 day if they were walking it?

If they would leave out right away it would be safer, but I would think they would hold out a few days before they would decide its time to bug out. So, by then, there would be bad guys out and about, making foot travel more dangerous.

How far do ya think they could walk per day?


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## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

Lotsa variables unaccounted for. Wild guess based on the weather being mild, not walking cross country, not carrying much except the kids and enough to survive, about 10 miles/day.


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## ContinualHarvest (Feb 19, 2012)

Healthy adults with school aged children may be able to comfortably walk 8-10 miles a day in ideal weather/terrain conditions.
Moving at night will be slower. Bad weather even slower.
I've hiked up to 18 miles in a day on the AT with a 30 lb. backpack (when starting).

Some good items that they should have AND learn to use include:
-First Aid Kit
-Survival Knife
-Map
-Lensatic Compass
***3 ways to make fire***
-Stormproof matches
-firesteel
-lighter
-High energy protein bars
-emergency blankets (the shiny mylar looking ones)
-a tarp (can be used as a litter, a shelter, ground cover)


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## ras1219como (Jan 15, 2013)

I'd say with a 2 year old and 4 year old it may be a little less than 10 miles per day. The kids won't be able to walk far without fatigue and the parents will probably wear out much more quickly having to carry a pack and a child. Plus you'd have to factor in weather and terrain.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

The 10 miles the first day would probably mean 5 the next unless the whole family walks a lot now, Bicycles with small trailers might make the trip possible in one long day. Allows for a lot more stuff to be carried and a lot easier to get kids to train for. Don't forget a tire repair kit or 2


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

Some suggestions that come to mind are:

I would tell them to get some type of wagon capable of handling most types of terrain so you could carry the kiddos plus some gear. Pack at least four (4) days worth of food and water, because I really don't see them making the 35 miles in one day. I would hunt a hidey hole during the day and travel by night. pack at least one change of clothes per person and probably extra underwear for the kids. Make sure to pack several pairs of socks each and some foot powder. 

Depending on what type of terrain they would be traveling through, the bare essentials I would have would be a tarp, ground cloth, 550 cord (at least 50') several good heavy camp (multipurpose) knives, multitool, several ways to start a fire, water filters, several small LED flashlights (possibly a small candle or two, extra batts. for the flashlights. toilet paper and some hygene products. Plus what I mentioned above. 

If weight and/or space is an issue, they could pack light on the food for them but not scrimp on the food for the Kids. Keeping them fed and as content as possible would make the treck that much easier. Don't skimp on the water...stay hydrated.

There are a whole host of things to think about when putting together that GHB and I just scratched the surface.

As an after thought I would also suggest that the go on "day hikes" or (for the Kids) adventure/nature hikes and get a true idea of how far they would be able to go in a day.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

Excellent health, late 50's, long legged, I can walk 3 miles in just under a hour. I figure I could do 10 hours or 30 miles a day. Weather and terrain permitting.

Carrying a 2 year old maybe 15 miles a day.

Wife and a 4 year old? I'd considered 10 miles a day cross country doing good.

I'd figured 4 days to go 35 miles back to home.

2 Bicycles with the children in pull behind trailers, 1 day easy. BUT with bikes we would have to stay on the public roads. Not sure how safe that would be. Young family equals a soft target


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Just to add a bit about night travel, IMO you would need some kind of a night vision device, having spent plenty of time in the night during calving season, I know that your eyes can play tricks on you at night, and in a panic type situation you would probably spend as much time hiding from shadows as traveling.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

TheLazyL said:


> Excellent health, late 50's, long legged, I can walk 3 miles in just under a hour. I figure I could do 10 hours or 30 miles a day. Weather and terrain permitting.
> 
> Carrying a 2 year old maybe 15 miles a day.
> 
> ...




Agree, but if they got an early launch they would be ahead of the curve, most people won't notice or react for at least a while, and if they have to abandon the bikes at some point at least those miles are covered.


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## Dixie (Sep 20, 2010)

Tirediron said:


> The 10 miles the first day would probably mean 5 the next unless the whole family walks a lot now, Bicycles with small trailers might make the trip possible in one long day. Allows for a lot more stuff to be carried and a lot easier to get kids to train for. Don't forget a tire repair kit or 2


*I agree, with two small kids, you are going to be lucky to make four miles without a way to pull or push them. Take into a count supplies, cover (tent) for rain, snacks, drinks, extra clothes, wet wipes (for potty breaks and cleaning hands), meals (THEY ARE KNOWN TO LIKE), flashlights, firestarters, ax and guns.
The bike and trailer sounds great, the kids will be able to take their naps while riding. Just make sure they get a bike that will go on and off rode easily. There maybe times when they have to travel through woods to keep out of sight. *


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

This might be a situation where geocaching every eight or ten miles might pay off. Also remember that kids have a lot less body mass so they are more prone to hypothermia.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

As often as this comes up on here I am tempted to start mass producing my bug out strollers and put them on Amazon. I considered bikes or other options, but feel that I need to be able to respond instantly to any threat or issue. If a gas powered vehicle in not available, going on foot gives me the most flexibility and tactical advantage. Especially since I am not restricted to roads. We have two of these. One is dedicated for children only, the other for one child and supplies. Neither are stock and have had been beefed up and camouflaged. We regularly use them for walks/hikes and can keep up a pretty good pace even off road.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

Tirediron had a good point. If you had a bike rack on the car or just threw the bikes in the back of the truck you might save a whole lot of time. If you have to drop the car after ten miles you have saved a day of walking. A few more miles on the bikes puts you further faster and means less walking. If they arrive with everything then you have more resources.


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## Jerry D Young (Jan 28, 2009)

My opinion is similar to Dixie's. 3 to 4 miles a day on foot, unless you are using something like a game cart to carry the supplies. The 2-year old might be able to ride some.

If you do the bike and trailers, then you can probably bump it up to 5 or 6, tops. I would plan on ten days on the road, just in case. You could be delayed for a lot of different reasons, and the kids simply won't be able to maintain the pace, anyway.

Just my opinion.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

Sentry18 said:


> As often as this comes up on here I am tempted to start mass producing my bug out strollers and put them on Amazon. I considered bikes or other options, but feel that I need to be able to respond instantly to any threat or issue. If a gas powered vehicle in not available, going on foot gives me the most flexibility and tactical advantage. Especially since I am not restricted to roads. We have two of these. One is dedicated for children only, the other for one child and supplies. Neither are stock and have had been beefed up and camouflaged. We regularly use them for walks/hikes and can keep up a pretty good pace even off road.


Sentry that is one of the neatist things since sliced bread. That looks to be an almost perfect way to transport children and supplies over most any type of terrain. Yep if you build them, I betcha you could sell them as fast as you built them.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

Sentry18 said:


> As often as this comes up on here I am tempted to start mass producing my bug out strollers and put them on Amazon. I considered bikes or other options, but feel that I need to be able to respond instantly to any threat or issue. If a gas powered vehicle in not available, going on foot gives me the most flexibility and tactical advantage. Especially since I am not restricted to roads. We have two of these. One is dedicated for children only, the other for one child and supplies. Neither are stock and have had been beefed up and camouflaged. We regularly use them for walks/hikes and can keep up a pretty good pace even off road.


How about a photo?


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## biobacon (Aug 20, 2012)

Sentry18 said:


> As often as this comes up on here I am tempted to start mass producing my bug out strollers and put them on Amazon. I considered bikes or other options, but feel that I need to be able to respond instantly to any threat or issue. If a gas powered vehicle in not available, going on foot gives me the most flexibility and tactical advantage. Especially since I am not restricted to roads. We have two of these. One is dedicated for children only, the other for one child and supplies. Neither are stock and have had been beefed up and camouflaged. We regularly use them for walks/hikes and can keep up a pretty good pace even off road.


WTF? Sentry I thought it would have a hard point for an AR for your 4 year old. LOL Actually that's pretty cool. This is what we have.
http://www.amazon.com/Jeep-Liberty-...5&sr=8-1&keywords=jeep+urban+terrain+stroller

and for some gear and the bigger kid we have this,
http://www.amazon.com/Graco-Duo-Glider-Stroller-Menagerie/dp/B008QPCVKS/ref=pd_sbs_ba_9

This is just my thinking and you can disagree with me because its a close thing, but in a total SHTF, aint going to get back to normal. We are going to bug in for three weeks, then head out after most people have died off. My kids are 1 1/2 and 3 1/2 and I just don't see making that trip quickly. After we get out of the city, (we live in a small city, 45,000 over a lot of area its pretty much country to BOL, only have to go through two very small towns that Im in the process of learning how to get around. (Yahoo maps anyone?) Again this is just me but I would rather take my chances with raiders and diehards then worry about loosing my children in the day after hustle and bustle. We have done a little practicing on our tactical position and I make a walk (sans gear  with the kids by myself to outside the city 2-3 days a week. I assume my wife who is a better shot will cover our advance. If I thought I could get away with it I would load up the gear and airsoft it.

Truth be told my BIL living with us may change all of this. Hes soon going to buy his first riffle and once I start getting him out to the range, I sure like the ideal of there being 3 of us so we can rotate Point, kids, Charlie. I assume 5-10 miles a day, or 3-4 days. That's reminds me, I have a reason to order more of those energy bars now with my BIL coming with us. We have a safehouse for a quarter way in on the trip where we should be pretty ok and depending on how bad things are we may pick up more people as family lives there.

Now that's worst case. I want to drive down to the BOL when crap starts looking bad if I can.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

IMO, TD had the most practical response. Bikes are great for moving more stuff, faster, quieter and easier. A lot of third-worlders can move their entire household on bikes by tying things everywhere then walking the bikes. I've used them to pack deer several miles out of the back-country over some rough terrain. (And told my son to never shoot any that far back in again unless it's a record breaker!)

We're raising a 2 1/2 Y/O grandson now and taking him cross-country in a tense situation would be difficult. Our plans are to make use of bikes, child seats and bike trailers. Kids get tired, cranky and NOISY. Not many people are prepared mentally or physically to hike that far. Have them take some backpacking excursions to get in shape physically, mentally and gear wise.

Distance per day is impossible to estimate. In good travelling conditions we can do 35 miles on bikes in about four hours without working too hard (we've done it a lot). In a SHTF situation ... it will depend on a lot of things. We've hiked 15 miles round trip to the post office and back several times. We were always glad we didn't have to do it two days in a row. We had tired muscles and blistered feet. With Scott (35 lbs.) in a back pack that means one of us will have to carry all of our gear for the trip. We'd more than likely take him in a back country stroller similar to what Sentry posted (only not as good:2thumb. That still leaves the other carrying a good share of the gear.

Another thing to consider is travel by water if that's feasible. Canoes/kayaks travel quietly and kids usually like being on the water. Water travel is easier at night too compared to land travel.

Do they have pets? Let the dog carry his own food.

At any rate, if they can, put some caches along the way.


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## jeff47041 (Jan 5, 2013)

Great advise about the bikes, wagons, & strollers. I'll have to talk to her and see if her and her man ride bikes currently. I have some bikes in the barn from when the kids were teens and the lovely one used to ride too. I'll have to get them back in shape for us to use.

Foot powder...Duh. Something that I'm missing in get home bag and the list I'm making for others. 

Thanks everybody for the input. I told my niece I would give her a list and some pointers this weekend when she comes to my granddaughters 6th birthday party.


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## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

Bike sounds like a very good solution if it will work. You can do the 35 miles in a day, easy, which greatly simpilifies the logistics. How 'bout a folding bike? Do a search on Montague.


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## Wellrounded (Sep 25, 2011)

I've used a wheelbarrow to move kids and supplies a few times, you can go just about anywhere and a big coat over it will keep a lot of rain off. We would load up, walk 3 miles (cross country) to the neighbours for a bonfire/get together and then walk 3 miles back with the kids asleep and rugged up nice and warm. 
We would also take the kids (one was three and the other one five) on bike rides, all of us riding our own bike. The ground was pretty flat but we'd travel 7 miles out and 7 back no problems, with the younger on a seat on my bike we'd double that. No packs other than a picnic in a back pack and plenty of water though, the first 2 miles out was on dirt tracks. That was pretty much an all day outing. The kids loved it and we played all sorts of games on the way to keep them busy. The oldest probably traveled twice the distance the rest of us did as she'd race ahead to a point we'd pick out then race back. 
The kids lived on their bikes. On days we didn't go on family rides they probably traveled further just zipping up and down farm tracks.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

*Bug out Bikes*

I have thought that bikes would make a good bug out vehicle in the event of events that keep us without gasoline or another form of motorized transportation. To maximize a bicycle's ability, a trailer for children or carrying more would help, although it would increase the load of the rider.

I have looked for years for a good design for a trailer to build, but have not found anything that seems sturdy enough. The ones that are built for children are recommended for 100 pounds maximum. Maybe that is the most a bike rider can really transport at a time.

Does anyone know of a good cargo trailer for a bike to buy or of a trailer design to make?


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## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

A mountain bike will go anywhere a 4WD will. A trailer severly limits its utility much like a trailer on a 4WD would. You can carry quite a bit without a trailer using racks and paniers. You can also ride with a pack.


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## GrinnanBarrett (Aug 31, 2012)

When I was 18 I actually did a 50 mile walk with some idiot friends of mine one day. Today if I made it 20 that would be unreal. Figure a family is going to make it anywhere from 10 to 20 miles a day tops. A lot depends on the terrain. If you are on good streets much more than over rough land. Having a fold up bicycle in your trunk can increase your distance traveled greatly. It also provides a way to transport more gear with relative ease. GB


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## cnsper (Sep 20, 2012)

For your socks, can the cotton ones and get wool. Your feet will stay drier and they are also easier to dry out. I wear them all year round with my boots.


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## goshengirl (Dec 18, 2010)

It's great that your niece is contacting you for that sort of advice, and she's making such plans to 'get home.' The first things that come to mind for me are: 1. I hope they're on the west side of Cincy, and 2. tell them to get a sidearm (or two or more) and don't be afraid to use it. 

As already discussed, something on wheels for the kids would be best - bikes if possible, so that everyone's on wheels, or at least carts/strollers for the kids. I think it's impossible to get a good estimate of daily mileage, because when the SHTF, all normalcy goes out the window. I just can't help but think that they'll be a vulnerable target, and may not get very much mileage each day because of ducking off the side of the road, etc. (I can generalize the area they would be going through - we seriously considered moving to dearborn county for a couple of years)

Yeah, tell her to get a firearm....


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## jeff47041 (Jan 5, 2013)

goshengirl said:


> It's great that your niece is contacting you for that sort of advice, and she's making such plans to 'get home.' The first things that come to mind for me are: 1. I hope they're on the west side of Cincy, and 2. tell them to get a sidearm (or two or more) and don't be afraid to use it.
> 
> As already discussed, something on wheels for the kids would be best - bikes if possible, so that everyone's on wheels, or at least carts/strollers for the kids. I think it's impossible to get a good estimate of daily mileage, because when the SHTF, all normalcy goes out the window. I just can't help but think that they'll be a vulnerable target, and may not get very much mileage each day because of ducking off the side of the road, etc. (I can generalize the area they would be going through - we seriously considered moving to dearborn county for a couple of years)
> 
> Yeah, tell her to get a firearm....


 Yes, I get all giddy when one of my nieces or nephews come around asking questions. I'm like finally!
Firearms are always on the top of the list when I give someone advise.

And that's why I think if they bug out as soon as something happens, they would be better off than waiting to see what has happened. Waiting 3 days could be all the difference in the world. They are here once a week, so she knows where to get to.

Yes, west side of Cincy. Western Hills.

We live in Ripley county, the next county west of Dearborn County. You should have moved when you had the chance.

I live on the place where my oldest uncle was born about 90 years ago. almost a mile and a half from where my dad was born. So my family has been here a while.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

We've done bike trips with and without trailers. We use Walmart child carrier trailers. One is now set up for our grandson. The other was modified for hauling cargo. We haven't done this but the slickest rig I've seen for cargo was a Walmart bike trailer like ours with the lower half of a large dog carrier used for cargo space. It was light weight and very easy to pack.

The single wheel bike trailers (bob trailers) pull easier but hold less. Bicycling is a lot like backpacking without the back ache and sore feet. You will notice every pound of stuff that you bring! Especially uphill or over rough terrain. Trailers really suck on gravel but are great on dirt or pavement. You can load up the trailer and the bike if you want. Just plan on taking longer to reach your destination. Get a good quality mtn bike but not some high-strung racing machine. You want reliability ... not speed! Extra heavy loads cause a lot of extra strain on the bike and things start to break. Carry a small tool kit that includes a new tire and tube, tire patch kit, replacement cables and chain repair links. These are small and easy to carry parts that are most likely to break on the road. Of course bring the tools you'll need to make the repairs.

Riding with a day-pack on is easy. A full-size backpack is hard. It's hard to keep your balance and your back is still carrying the weight. Get some panniers and a rack for your bike.

You can always load the bike down and push it too. You'd be surprised at how much weight you can transport that way.

Steve


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## Sarasyn (Jun 4, 2013)

We've had to consider this with our family. Our two options mean packing up and getting out with a family of 6. Thankfully we've alreafy been working in walking endurance. If we absolutely had to we could clear about 15 miles in a day, but 10 would be a better bet. For a family that hasn't been building up their on-foot endurance, 5 is probably a safe number of miles to assume on foot.

With our family the idea of a bike and trailer would only work if we stuck to the streets. The underbrush is hard enough to bike through without a trailer. Because of this, we've decided we're going to be using a couple sturdy kid-carriers. The Ergo Baby and Boba carriers are my choice since they're light and my 20 lb baby feels like nothing in them. My 3 year old (35 lbs) isn't too encumbering either. They can both be used to wear the child on front or back, though I'd prefer to wear the child on back and the bag on front. It's easier to drop something off my front to defend myself if need be that way. I can also ride a bike with one of the kids on my back pretty safely, but I don't have the stamina to bike far yet. The older two don't know how to ride bikes well enough, so we'd be better off on foot.

I've always been one to wear my babies since birth, so I don't know if it's just that my kids are used to it or if all kids feel safe and comfortable enough to knock out on their parent's back. In the winter it has the added benefit of shared body heat, which can help when considering keeping your child warm. In the summer it may be less comfortable.

My best advice with kids is to practice, practice, practice. My kids are 9, 6, 3, and not quite a year. Already they're practiced enough to make it to one of our planned locations (about ten miles, less if we can cut through fields) in half a day with pit stops, snacks, and carrying gear. The other location is about 25 miles. We could probably push to knock it out in a day, but two would probably be better. Since that's our ideal spot we have a few plans, including taking the car, having our friend there pick.us up, and keeping our friend informed of our travel route so he can meet us on the way if necessary. It all depends on hoe much lead time we have before the crazy and how safe it is to travel. Three days to wait it out isn't a wise option for us, so our goal is to get moving as soon as we can safely do so.


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

mosquitomountainman said:


> Kids get tired, cranky and NOISY. Not many people are prepared mentally or physically to hike that far. Have them take some backpacking excursions to get in shape physically, mentally and gear wise.


Great advice!

It is rather easy to say one is in shape but to put that to the test , may not be. (sorry) Walking 1 or 5 miles on a trend mill is rather easy but putting it to the "real test" is very different.

I agree with MMM ... some backpacking excursions are in order. (kids and all ... I hope they have a great time and learn a lot... )

:flower:


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

My advice to her would be:

Summer is upon us so do a dry run in multiple stages. Figure out how they plan to transport the kids. Carry them or push them. Then load up a similarly weighted baby carrier or buggy and take a Saturday and go for one long walk. Then call the husband to pick her up when she reaches her limit.

Then I'd suggest she think about burying caches of food and other non-perishable supplies (diapers, a blanket, GLAD garbage bags used as rain ponchos, etc) along the public route she's going to take. Buy it, bury it, and leave it in place. Not having to carry two or three days of supplies is going to make the trip much easier.

The walk-through is cheap (free) to do and it buys her information on her own stamina and how to plan for a multi-day hike. The caching is more expensive, is pure insurance, meaning money wasted if nothing happens but immensely helpful if she needs to access the supplies in her cache(s). Let her decide whether that is money well spent.

Another option is to chart a path which avoids roads and likely the danger that arises from meeting people on those roads who are less well prepared than her family.


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## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

Yep, nothin' like a dry run to figure out what works and what don't. I'm not like some folks who think this is gonna be like _*War of the Worlds*_ I'm more inclined to believe it will be more like the mess in a hurricane evacuation, cars jammed up everywhere but no zombies. If that is the case a couple of bicycles will do it. Hell, I've seen a guy put him, his wife and two kids on one bike.


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## Shammua (Jan 27, 2012)

*For behind a bike or walking*

You could always go with something like this if you are wanting to Bug Out with little ones.








Frame it out to hang BOB on outside and leave some extra room on the inside for little ones to rest so you don't have to stop walking at all and make decent time.

I think it would be easy enough to rig it so it can be towed behind a bike, then if you have to bail on bikes you have something easy enough to pull, and it will do great on rough terrain.


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## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

That thing is built for looks, not function. I wouldn't want to pull that for 35 miles. If I wanted a wagon it would be something with bicycle style wheels, maybe two wheel. The make a clever thing designed to move deer/elk carcass.


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## helicopter5472 (Feb 25, 2013)

Looks like you should have a lawn tractor designed to look like a baby dump truck to pull it with


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## Shammua (Jan 27, 2012)

swjohnsey said:


> That thing is built for looks, not function. I wouldn't want to pull that for 35 miles. If I wanted a wagon it would be something with bicycle style wheels, maybe two wheel. The make a clever thing designed to move deer/elk carcass.


Actually if you checked it out first you would see that it has a 1,000lb. capacity, with rough terrain tires for being off pavement. I think that covers the function part. I wouldn't have a problem at all pulling that over 35 miles because of the simple fact, if I am now on foot I will most likely be staying off the roads and will need something that doesn't get hung up on the rocks, or bogged down in mud, or has to be balanced to be useful.

With something two wheeled you are limiting your options. I would MUCH rather have a 4 wheeled wagon that if I stop I don't have to do a balancing act with or have to put such heavy effort into going up hill.

Just my 2 cents!!!


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Shammua, that beats the heck out of a shopping cart and people push those things for miles.
Being able to push something as well as pull can be a big advantage and it looks like that would allow it. 
I have a lot of time spent moving around wheelbarrows, carts, wagons, wheelchairs, etc and after awhile turning around and pulling for a while is such a relief (different muscles)

Larger diameter tires are definitely a plus but they often come at the expense of less rubber (rougher).


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## Shammua (Jan 27, 2012)

cowboyhermit, I agree. Plus those are inflatable tires. What do you do when you get a flat? One of the first things I would do is replace those tires with solid tires so no chance of flats. 
The other things I like about it are:
1. It can be used now, not just during post SHTF.
2. It has a steel frame under it, now I can put an adjustable hitch on it so I can carry it sideways like a vehicle shelf instead of having to lift it all the way into the back of the truck.
3. It will work great as a beach wagon, garden wagon, and more uses that I can't think of right now.


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## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

I have one of those heavy duty wagon. Yep, it will hold a 1,000 pounds. It doesn't have duals on the back which are there for looks. Spesaking from personal experience, you can't move that thing with 1,000 pounds on it over soft ground with anything less than a mule.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

swjohnsey, I think you missed the point of the duals entirely, do you think that dual or triples on tractors are there for looks, maybe on semi's too? Duals will double the amount of tire in contact with the ground, halving the psi they exert. Surely anyone can see that this will cause the tires to sink in half as much on soft ground, thus making it that much easier to pull. So how are they for looks again?


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

Dual wheels increase the load capacity but they are not a good idea for flotation on soft surfaces. The reason is that they break through the "crust" causing the tires to sink deeper into the sand, snow, etc. Flotation on soft surfaces is accomplished best through a single, wide tire.

I first learned this in the Marine Corp from the "old timers" who drove the single wheel/tandem axle trucks predating the trucks we drove (that had tandem axles and dual wheels) and have since proven it's truth to my satisfaction through personal experience.

I have to agree with swj that pulling a half-ton of weight will be taxing at best and virtually impossible on unpaved surfaces. 

When travelling the best way is to travel as light as possible. I, being trained in the USMC, had a bad habit of packing way too much when backpacking or biking. My wife cured me of that by showing how much easier and faster travel was by packing light and smart.

Keep it light. Just because a person CAN pack everything but the kitchen sink doesn't mean that they SHOULD.

Incidentally, packing light comes with practice as you learn what you need and what you don't! Also take advantage of technology. There's a lot of stuff available that's light weight and sturdy/dependable.


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## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

You got me. Never seen a tripple on a tractor. I suggest you try pullin' that thing 35 miles come back and talk to me.


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## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

mosquitomountainman said:


> Dual wheels increase the load capacity but they are not a good idea for flotation on soft surfaces. The reason is that they break through the "crust" causing the tires to sink deeper into the sand, snow, etc. Flotation on soft surfaces is accomplished best through a single, wide tire.
> 
> I first learned this in the Marine Corp from the "old timers" who drove the single wheel/tandem axle trucks predating the trucks we drove (that had tandem axles and dual wheels) and have since proven it's truth to my satisfaction through personal experience.
> 
> ...


The old dual tired duce and a half were terrible off road. The military finally saw the light and went to much taller single wheels.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Duals may not be the best, and a single wide tire is better but that is usually not an option. 
I don't know about military vehicles with duals but as for floatation tires, all one needs to look at is farming, logging, etc. They use the widest tires possible or practical, then they put on duals if they have to. Duals on small tractors can be put on or taken off with relative ease so there has been plenty of time to test this and two tires always out perform one (of the same size) in soft ground.

This wagon has two (relatively) wide tires, with the proposed alternatives being a bike tire.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

A taller WIDER tire will provide more floatation than a tall skinny on, the friction of motion depends on wether there is a solid bottom for the skinny tire IE a game cart. personally I think a bicycle tired cart or trailer would be best in a bug out situation, staying out of swampy and mucky areas if at all possible.


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## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

All the logging stuff I've seen has single tall wide tires vs duals. The problem with duals is lack of ground clearance.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

I have to say I am surprised by what you have not seen. They have been putting triples on tractors for decades. The fact that you have never seen a skidder with duals is also surprising to me. 

Typically logging equipment never uses tires that are "tall" they use tires with a much wider ratio. Saying that a tire is "tall" simply because it is 5 feet in dimension is not really useful, one has to look at the width in relation to the height. Bike tires are tall, tires on high clearance sprayers are tall, however tires on logging equipment are rarely this shape.

A larger diameter obviously helps in rough terrain, and even on soft ground to some degree, but adding another tire of the same dimensions will always improve performance on soft ground.


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## Sarasyn (Jun 4, 2013)

Part of knowing if trailers, wagons, etc are going to work is knowing your route. If you're making a shortcut through a field are you going to have to deal with fallen or partially fallen fences? Or maybe fences in good repair? Will you be dealing with dense growth, possibly muddy ground, or paths too narrow for your selected gear hauling device? Once you know what kind of terrain you'll be crossing and all that, it's easier to tell. For example, one of our routes takes us over two partly fallen barbed wire fences and the abandoned field between them. If it's overgrown that time of year it'd really slow us up or even bring us to a dead stop. Something with two large narrow wheels might be best, but they hay it now and then to reduce ticks in the local area, and after a rain, I wouldn't want to pull anything through that mud. It'd slow us up enough just walking though there. Knowing your route and what you'll encounter can make all the difference.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

cowboyhermit said:


> Duals may not be the best, and a single wide tire is better but that is usually not an option.
> I don't know about military vehicles with duals but as for floatation tires, all one needs to look at is farming, logging, etc. They use the widest tires possible or practical, then they put on duals if they have to. Duals on small tractors can be put on or taken off with relative ease so there has been plenty of time to test this and two tires always out perform one (of the same size) in soft ground.
> 
> This wagon has two (relatively) wide tires, with the proposed alternatives being a bike tire.


Don't wanna' get in a big argument over this but comparing tractors with trucks is not apples to apples. Tractors need traction. The dual wheels give them twice as much as single wheels. When tractors get stuck it's because they dig themselves in.

Trailers are dead weight. You want tires that will make it roll easily. How many farmers use dual wheel trailers?

In WW2 and Korea the military tactical vehicles had single tires on the axles. Then they made the change to dual wheels in Vietnam. The current generation has gone back to single wheels simply because they outperform dual wheels in off-road terrain.

This argument is void here anyway since we're talking about a trailer to be pulled by hand. I personally would prefer single wheels because I believe that they'd be easier to pull a load with. I don't need the extra heavy capacity because I have no intention of dragging that much stuff along. Dual wheels, in off road terrain are going to pull harder than single wheels. It's not about traction or even flotation. If the ground is that soft the only smart choice is to dump some of the weight.


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## Shammua (Jan 27, 2012)

Makes the load more stable as well having duels. Harder to tip over I would say. I would buy that thing in a heart beat if it was solid tires as well with that. It would be practically unstoppable if you didn't have to worry about flats.


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## cazetofamo (Mar 18, 2012)

Here's the link to my currently running thread, Survival Bike!

http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f21/survival-bike-19758/


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

mosquitomountainman said:


> How many farmers use dual wheel trailers?


Most or all I would think (everyone I know at least). When pulling a trailer of grain out of the field floatation is very important, nobody would think of using a grain trailer behind a semi or any truck with single wheels, there are carts that have singles but they use huge floatation tires so duals are not usually necessary but they are used where the extra floatation is needed.

For goosenecks triple axles have replaced tandem duals to some degree but now there are lots of triple axles with duals as well.


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## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

We use grain buggies down here, all single wheels.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

cowboyhermit said:


> Most or all I would think (everyone I know at least). When pulling a trailer of grain out of the field floatation is very important, nobody would think of using a grain trailer behind a semi or any truck with single wheels, there are carts that have singles but they use huge floatation tires so duals are not usually necessary but they are used where the extra floatation is needed.
> 
> For goosenecks triple axles have replaced tandem duals to some degree but now there are lots of triple axles with duals as well.


What part of the country do you live in? I grew up in Kansas and worked on farms all of my growing up years and never saw a dual wheel farm trailer. I have yet to see one or a reason why anyone would need one. Are you farming in marsh land?

Again the starting point of this discussion was pulling a load by hand. If you have so much stuff or weight that you need dual wheels for flotation or weight capacity you are pulling too much weight. Lighten the load.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

I have seen grain carts in particular with duals in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Montana, and North Dakota. I have been involved in their transportation Those are the only states I ever looked but I would be surprised if it was isolated to this region.
Here is one in North Dakota








ETA; I searched North Dakota but somehow that one came up even though it was in Kansas So I guess they are all over.:dunno:

As for other trailers I think a semi trailer or one to pull behind a tandem or even a single axle without duals would have to be custom made.


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## helicopter5472 (Feb 25, 2013)

jeff47041 said:


> I'm excited because one of my nieces emailed me yesterday and asked "if something bad happens, and the cars wont go, what kind of stuff should I have to get us back home?"
> She, DH, (both in their late 30's and decent shape physically) 2 yr old, and 4 yr old live in Cincinnati. 35 miles from home.
> 
> I'm making a list for a BOB among other things for her, any input on that would be great.
> ...


Well going back to the question first asked I think we have gone way off base, especially here the last few pages. Somehow I can't quite see the 30 year old mother pulling this dually trailer with her two kids in it. Maybe there is more to steroids than I realize. 35 miles pulling this trailer may take her a life time especially if there is a hill involved. Or maybe I missed something.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Yes, this went off-topic but I don't think it is completely unrelated. 

Shammua posted a trailer with duals and the conversation let to which tires would be best on a trailer, particularly on soft ground.
I think the wagon posted by Shammua could be effective, just because it CAN hold 1000lbs doesn't mean it has to. 

I also think the OP was about a mother and father, this wagon looks like it could be pushed and/or pulled and I think that is an advantage. 

I have used lots of bike wheeled apparatus off road and they can be difficult in soft ground, I think that is important for people to know.


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## Jimthewagontraveler (Feb 8, 2012)

*Footprint*

The key word is footprint IMO.
A taller tire rolls easier because of less bearing rotation.
This is very minor at low speeds so the key gain of a taller tire is the ability to rise over an object at a lower incidence angle.
In soft ground a taller tire will sink in to the point where the tires footprint is able to support x weight on x terrain.
Another good point to taller tires is to think of the tires ability to create its own bridge when rolling over a hole,
Meaning a 10 inch tire goes down to the axle in a 10 inch hole while a 20 inch tire drops down a bit but should rise up out of the same hole easier.
MY issues with the small tires are
1 that puts the wagon contents under water sooner
2 harder to pull up and over a bump
3 BRUSH WEEDS GRASS [ PLESE INSERT THE CURSE WORD OF YOUR CHOICE HERE] GETTING HUNG IN AXLE AND BEARINGS.

I would like to mention that wider axles make any mobile platform more stable
[and harder to fit in small spaces] NOT how many tires

harbor freight or northern hydraulics stocks solid bicycle size tires
WARNING 
The 20 in size have folded on me many many times under side stress
the 26 in have never folded and bearings are the same as a wheel barrow tire.

I have often thought how a bug out hand wagon would be useful [just not for me]
3 foot x 6 foot would be absoloute max size [imo]
2 children and supplies ride constantly.
2 adults 2 children and supplies ride down hill.

I have used 3 pyrenees to pull a similar wagon with 400 lbs cargo for many hours several days in a row.


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## webeable (Aug 29, 2012)

I would consider a sulky style cart. Would allow kids to ride some cargo and easy to pull. Could be towed behind a bike, or pulled by hand could go on most terrain due to long bridle run. Could be pulled by a large dog allowing parents to rest some. As far as how far in a day. Well if they are in Cinci not a good place to be depending on area. 127 is built up to north but then again if they don't look threating or like refugees might be ok. Could have a pre arranged meeting point for fresh meat to help move along say 10 miles out from BOL. Given if use all this and just hard push 2 days because their life will depend on it.


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