# Will you fight for your stuff?



## dahur (Dec 18, 2009)

I'll fight. They may get my stuff, and get me, but I've vowed to make it very expensive for them. 
I just spent two hours at the range today, getting used to my new toy.
Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 semi-automatic. 
1500 rounds of ammo stocked so far, 5 [email protected] rounds per. It's a start.
Also have a shotgun, and 38.
At least 4 on my street with guns, and or rifles. Three are dedicated hunters.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

Well, I'm certainly not going to let someone just take food and supplies my family will need! I would like to think they can be turned away without deadly violence, or put to work helping produce food or whatever needs to be done. But yes, if we had to, we would fight. 

It will be scary times indeed, when we have to make the decision to fight/kill. Sad to think what desperation will lead people to do, on both sides of the issue.


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

Yup!:club:


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

gypsysue said:


> Well, I'm certainly not going to let someone just take food and supplies my family will need!


Amen! :beercheer:


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## WinTheMindWinTheDay (Jul 27, 2011)

I would indeed fight, and rightfully so. Although I feel in those trying times, it may not be instantly apparent in being able to discern a predator from an ally...I think there may be an influx of cantonments, holding up, squatting, and a noticeable distancing and mistrust of many people thanks in part to the way society "interacts" with itself nowadays.

America would quite possibly revert back to the antebellum, Homesteading days. I think the future following a "shtf" situation might end up looking a lot like the days of the American West, and the western expansion, whereby people get by day to day, lots of drifting, the family nucleus would be forced to strengthen as there would be less distractions, and a higher need for unity in a family to survive, and the government's laws, if any would be left, might take a backseat role to the law of the land. There is one big difference, and it is that there's 300+ million people in this country now...things would get, to say the least, interesting.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

dahur said:


> Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 semi-automatic.


You realize the gun you have is a big, black scary looking 22, right? I wouldn't count on it piercing a good leather jacket but it's great for shooting squirrel.


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## dahur (Dec 18, 2009)

tsrwivey said:


> You realize the gun you have is a big, black scary looking 22, right? I wouldn't count on it piercing a good leather jacket but it's great for shooting squirrel.


You want to stand in front of it in your "good leather jacket", and we'll give it a test?


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## ComputerGuy (Dec 10, 2010)

A 22 can be deadly. A well placed shot to the head is a killer. I have 3 22's for protection. I also have a 223, 308 PTR-91, shotguns and handguns.

A 22 is a great start. You never know, a bad @$$ looking 22 might just deter someone. 

Also bees sting, and many bee stings kill!


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## Ponce (May 3, 2009)

Back in 1962 12 of us pulled a raid in Cuba and we all carry 22's, besides the side weapons,.........let me tell you, the other side were unable to lift their head for one second without getting hit........22's is more dangerous than what you think................in the US army that was my work horse with a hush puppy at the end.


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## ComputerGuy (Dec 10, 2010)

Ponce said:


> Back in 1962 12 of us pulled a raid in Cuba and we all carry 22's, besides the side weapons,.........let me tell you, the other side were unable to lift their head for one second without getting hit........22's is more dangerous than what you think................in the US army that was my work horse with a hush puppy at the end.


Exactly! So easy to dispel a small calibre that is always been thought as practice.

NO MATTER WHAT, a piece of metal flying through the air at 1300 fps is gonna hurt tissue, mass, bone, cartilage, etc.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*.22 cal*



ComputerGuy said:


> Exactly! So easy to dispel a small calibre that is always been thought as practice.
> 
> NO MATTER WHAT, a piece of metal flying through the air at 1300 fps is gonna hurt tissue, mass, bone, cartilage, etc.


A .22 cal round fired from a rifle will kill you deader than a bag of hammers.

I have a close friend that runs a meat processing house.

He kills full grown steers and hogs with a single shot rifle loaded with .22 shorts.

It is a point blank shot but they hit the ground dead.

I wouldn't recomend them for self defence but I don't want to be shot with one either.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

After a collapse I would fight off any intruders with deadly force.


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## SuspectZero (Feb 3, 2011)

I use the same .22 at the range and varmit hunting. Many dismiss this caliber but lets not forget its many uses. In an Eotw situation what type of rounds will be the most common and affordable. This lowly .22 can take down most types of game you will prolly b living off of. Once it gets in this "animal" it will surely bounce around creating a nice stew of tissue n muscle making most unhappy at the least. Most people will not want to draw attention to themselves. I have a .308 but dont always want the entire timber to know what im doing and where i am. Last i knew there were more deaths from a .22 in the U.S. than any other round last year.

As to your ?. For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well organized and armed militia is their best security. -Thomas Jefferson. Not promoting a militia point of view but its good that you know your neighbors and talk with them. In an unfortunate situation its always reassuring to know its not you against the world. No one person can have and do it all to survive. Look @ katrina. Many citizens banded together to protect their street from being looted and rummaged. I have no intentions on letting my family starve if society was to break down. I would hope that this would not happen in my area but katrina was a nasty reminder of how civalized people can turn and of the fantastic job fema did...


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## Jimmy24 (Apr 20, 2011)

ComputerGuy said:


> A 22 can be deadly. A well placed shot to the head is a killer. I have 3 22's for protection. I also have a 223, 308 PTR-91, shotguns and handguns.
> 
> A 22 is a great start. You never know, a bad @$$ looking 22 might just deter someone.
> 
> Also bees sting, and many bee stings kill!


You are correct, but head shots not required...

Remember a guy named Hinkley? 6 shots from a CHEAP (RG) 22 revolver took down 3 men. Damn near killed all 3 of them. 1 shot in head, 2 body shots.

Don't think a 22 isn't good enough.

Jimmy


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## Jimmy24 (Apr 20, 2011)

Oh yeah, I'll fight for me and mine and our stuff.

Jimmy


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## kejmack (May 17, 2011)

Do you guys ever stay on topic??? LOL Will I fight? Absolutely!!!


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## Clarice (Aug 19, 2010)

Yes we will fight. We have worked hard to be at the prep level we are now and if someone who did not have the foresight to prepare thinks we will give up our supplies easily better think again.


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## headhunter (Nov 21, 2008)

Ponce said:


> Back in 1962 12 of us pulled a raid in Cuba and we all carry 22's, besides the side weapons,.........let me tell you, the other side were unable to lift their head for one second without getting hit........22's is more dangerous than what you think................in the US army that was my work horse with a hush puppy at the end.


A long time ago I read an account of a group of anti Castro people who went in witl Remington 66s- the old nylon .22s. Was that you?


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

How do you like that M&P .22? I have actually been looking at those, myself.

And yes, I will fight to defend the things that I will need to survive. I know when to let go of "stuff" and when to fight for what matters.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Yes*

Yes , I will fight if I have to.


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## dahur (Dec 18, 2009)

Turtle said:


> How do you like that M&P .22? I have actually been looking at those, myself.
> 
> And yes, I will fight to defend the things that I will need to survive. I know when to let go of "stuff" and when to fight for what matters.


If you don't load the magazines just right, it WILL jam. Once I figured that out, I haven't had a failure, (400+ rounds). I watched all the YouTube video's on M&P 1522 before purchasing. 
It's a fun & economical weapon to shoot, and very well engineered.


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## ashley8072 (Apr 26, 2011)

tsrwivey said:


> You realize the gun you have is a big, black scary looking 22, right? I wouldn't count on it piercing a good leather jacket but it's great for shooting squirrel.


My brother once made fun of a small BB gun I bought. He joked about how it doesn't hurt. I said, "Let me shoot u in the face, or smack u on the head with it." Yeah, he wouldn't let me. rofl! He came down some time after and was messing around with it when we had our "annual gun cleaning day" and was laughing about it. I couldn't help but tell him that he had my glock 23, NOT the BB gun. lol!

Knowledge is power and a bullet to the face hurts. :2thumb:


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## BlackPaladin (Oct 20, 2008)

I am willing to fight for mine now, so if and when that time comes, I have no problem doing it again.


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## SuspectZero (Feb 3, 2011)

Are you talking about the magazines w the spring lever u can pull down? Ive noticed that after ive put in 24 rounds i take lever and pull it down and let it spring back up to settle the rounds rights. I shoot federal thru it and no jam yet. Close to 1500 rds or so now. Nice rifle if you own other 1913 railed weapons and want to swap grips, bipods, and what not.


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## dahur (Dec 18, 2009)

SuspectZero said:


> Are you talking about the magazines w the spring lever u can pull down? Ive noticed that after ive put in 24 rounds i take lever and pull it down and let it spring back up to settle the rounds rights. I shoot federal thru it and no jam yet. Close to 1500 rds or so now. Nice rifle if you own other 1913 railed weapons and want to swap grips, bipods, and what not.


Yes, those are the ones, a button on both sides you can pull down. Hey I'll have to try that next time they don't sit in there right. Haven't tried Federal yet, just Winchester. 
Thanks for the suggestion.

_____________________________________________________________

"I spent most of my money on women and beer. The rest I wasted."
-Evel Knievel


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## Daphnetree (Jun 20, 2011)

*fighting for stuff*

No, I am not prepared to kill people for my "stuff", this is not to say I am not into security, reducing or limiting the temptation for those to inclined to steal. If things get bad, my life experience so far as well as seeing how people react in natural disasters is that the majority of people help others, want to contribute, will not immediatedly go into rip off mode. There is a minority of people, like as in now, that crime is easier than work, and for those situations part of my prep is about security. I have created mechanisms to help others, and part of what I prep is saving food and medical supplies not only for my family, but neighbors and others in need who did not have the foresight to prep, but are nontheless good people. Most people would be willing to work for food if needed. If it is a matter of spending money on guns to protect my stuff, I would rather spend it on extra stuff, so if it came down to it, I would have enough to spare. Guns are expensive. How many lbs of beans can I buy for one gun?


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## OldTXCop (Oct 9, 2008)

Another .22 rifle that's built as a tactical model like the M&P 22 is the CMMG Quebec M4. It's a purpose built .22LR, but it's built with a mil-spec AR-15 lower. It runs about $500, not much more than the M&P 22. But you can buy an AR-15 upper in 5.56/.223, 6.8SPC, 204 Ruger, or any caliber that fits the .223 size lower. Put it on the CMMG lower and you've got another rifle. That gives you two or three rifles in one.

And yes, I will fight to defend my property, without hesitating to use deadly force when needed. For those of you not ready to kill for your property, you may as well put the guns away. It won't just be your supplies, at this point in time, lost supplies could/would mean your families lives. 

If it's truly a SHTF situation, wounding someone with a .22 is basically torture, condemning them to an agonizingly slow death. The reason the .22LR is the deadliest cartridge in the US, is because it has externally lubricated bullets. The lubricant is a lead/graphite grease. The grease causes a severe infection in the damaged tissues and blood stream, that often causes a lingering painful death in about 10-20 days.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

BillM said:


> A .22 cal round fired from a rifle will kill you deader than a bag of hammers.
> 
> I have a close friend that runs a meat processing house.
> 
> ...


Very good point. Use what is available, it's called the "butter knife brigade" in other words a sharpened butter knife can get you what ever weapon your enemy is carrying. What ever you have for defense, use it wisely. Don't let anyone tell you that you must have a .223, .308, 50 BMG, or all of those and a case of hand grenades to adequately protect yourself and your family. If you can afford an M-4 or AR-10 for example and that is what you want, then by all means go for it.

oldvet

Folks I didn't get to be an old vet by not thinking things through and using a good dose of good old common sense.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

To answer the initial question of wheather or not I would use deadly force to protect what is mine. Yes I would if someone was attempting to harm one of us or attempting to take what we may have by force.

If we have to move to our retreat there will be three families of us totaling around 30 people. We will be fairly self sufficient, however we have agreed that if someone comes to us without hostile intent and asks for food, they will not be turned away. 

Don't take that last statement to imply that our security would be taken lightly or that there is a lack of training and experience on our part. We have more than ample means and ability to defend our families.

oldvet


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## kevinp (Aug 17, 2011)

I am obviously not going to let anyone just grab the food or anything the family will be needing. I am not sure though if I can handle the same scenario you have plants out here as that seems a little too violent for me, take note; just a little. 

Fighting for your stuff will be really important but losing your life or someone else's is just too big of a gamble, it can also go either way.


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## OldTXCop (Oct 9, 2008)

oldvet said:


> Don't let anyone tell you that you must have a .223, .308, 50 BMG, or all of those and a case of hand grenades to adequately protect yourself and your family. If you can afford an M-4 or AR-10 for example and that is what you want, then by all means go for it.


Good point oldvet. Truthfully, one of the best alternatives to the AR, M4 and AK is the good old Lever action 30-30. It's the ballistic equivalent of the AK 7.62x39 cartridge and can be found almost everywhere in the US. Used ones are plentiful and fairly inexpensive. Even new ones are around $350.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

OldTXCop said:


> Good point oldvet. Truthfully, one of the best alternatives to the AR, M4 and AK is the good old Lever action 30-30. It's the ballistic equivalent of the AK 7.62x39 cartridge and can be found almost everywhere in the US. Used ones are plentiful and fairly inexpensive. Even new ones are around $350.


Excellent point Sir, they are a very reliable firearm and as you said pack as much punch as an SK or AK.

oldvet


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

kevinp said:


> I am obviously not going to let anyone just grab the food or anything the family will be needing. I am not sure though if I can handle the same scenario you have plants out here as that seems a little too violent for me, take note; just a little.
> 
> Fighting for your stuff will be really important but losing your life or someone else's is just too big of a gamble, it can also go either way.


Don't take what I have stated the wrong way. I am not advocating violence at every turn. I am simply saying if you find yourself in a SHTF situation and "bug out", and the scum, gangbangers, punks or anyone else that wants something for nothing hit the streets, don't think for one second that they won't kill you and yours for what you have.

In that situation you had better have made up your mind wheather you are willing to use deadly force or not, because if you fail to act and protect yourself and your family, you will as the old saying goes " get very dead very quick".

I am not trying to put scare tactics out there or encourage anyone to do anything, I am just stating facts as I have seen them happen.

oldvet


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## laylow (Jul 28, 2009)

The things I've stored for my wife and I means we live. Without the food and water, we don't live. Taking our stuff is the same as taking our lives. So yeah, we fight.


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## headhunter (Nov 21, 2008)

Watching the posts that show nice rifles ,stacks of ammo, pistols, and knives as well as the backpack they wish to carry things in - it's cool. I like guns and I like knives but---.
The section 640 acres ( one mile square) that we live on ( our 6 1/2 acres) holds probably only 10 deer or less. They had to come into the yard to eat our cedar trees last winter they also ate my small white pines, they were starving. The DNR claims that horned owls need 2 pheasants a week for food, I don' think they really are the sharing kind. Raccoons hibernate. I have only seen 2 coveys of Hungarian partridge. The ducks and geese leave every fall.
I guess what I'm saying is the opportunities to hunt your own food are not conducive to survival.
When temperatures plunge to -20 degrees Fahrenheit for a week how long would my small wood-lot last if it were open to anyone who desired firewood.
Resources are not easy nor are they abundant.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

During a collapse people will panic. They will take everything you have. They will leave you to starve. You'd BETTER have a gun and learn how to use it. Or you WILL become a statistic. I don't think anyone of us fully understands how bad it will get when the stores close, the power goes off, and water doesn't come out of the tap anymore. All people are going to care about is the fact that they're hungry and their children are hungry. You might have 20 people in your house all carrying stuff away as fast as they can. I wouldn't bet my life that my friends and neighbors are good people. On the contrary, everyone you know will think you owe them something. I think we all have more to worry about from people we know than from strangers.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

headhunter said:


> Watching the posts that show nice rifles ,stacks of ammo, pistols, and knives as well as the backpack they wish to carry things in - it's cool. I like guns and I like knives but---.
> The section 640 acres ( one mile square) that we live on ( our 6 1/2 acres) holds probably only 10 deer or less. They had to come into the yard to eat our cedar trees last winter they also ate my small white pines, they were starving. The DNR claims that horned owls need 2 pheasants a week for food, I don' think they really are the sharing kind. Raccoons hibernate. I have only seen 2 coveys of Hungarian partridge. The ducks and geese leave every fall.
> I guess what I'm saying is the opportunities to hunt your own food are not conducive to survival.
> When temperatures plunge to -20 degrees Fahrenheit for a week how long would my small wood-lot last if it were open to anyone who desired firewood.
> Resources are not easy nor are they abundant.


Good points Sir,

It probably wouldn't take more than two weeks at the most to hunt out an area. If someone is planning on hunting to feed their family they are in for a big unpleasant shock.

If anyone intends to survive at their retreat they had better make up their minds that they will have to grow a garden (using heirloom seeds) and at least raise some chickens and goats or pigs, and if possible some cattle.

I also hope that one Insures that they have a continous water supply and hopefully some solar or wind generated power.

We have made contigency plans on doing repairs or making needed items without the use of electricity. For instance hand cranked drill presses, hand cranked grinders, a forge, brace and bits and a whole host of other non powered hand tools that would be invaluable in a no power situation.

oldvet


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## CulexPipiens (Nov 17, 2010)

BillS said:


> During a collapse people will panic. They will take everything you have.... You might have 20 people in your house all carrying stuff away as fast as they can.


That's already happening now with the flash mobs. Imagine the same scenario but this time it's your house, there is no silent alarm and they know the police aren't going to respond even if there was one. You and your family would be quite lucky if they just took the stuff and left you alone.

If defending my stuff means my wife, daughter and granddaughter are safe and can eat, then by all means I'll be defending it.


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## neil-v1 (Jan 22, 2010)

Yes, I would fight (and kill) to protect everything I have. It makes no difference to me if it's a bean or one of my kid's. Try to take either one and you are gonna have a problem.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

dahur said:


> I'll fight. They may get my stuff, and get me, but I've vowed to make it very expensive for them.
> I just spent two hours at the range today, getting used to my new toy.
> Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 semi-automatic.
> 1500 rounds of ammo stocked so far, 5 [email protected] rounds per. It's a start.
> ...


Stuff is pain,lack of stuff is more pain.I've read the poor man's James Bond.there will be no stuff or those to take it.Thermite and Claymores work wonders.

In the end, only the unfit survive anyway.


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## sailaway (Mar 12, 2009)

I'm a sole prepper now, my preps are scattered in several different places. It doesn't look like there is much at any location. If the cards weren't stacked in my favor I would disappear.


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## stayingthegame (Mar 22, 2011)

BillS said:


> During a collapse people will panic. They will take everything you have. They will leave you to starve. You'd BETTER have a gun and learn how to use it. Or you WILL become a statistic. I don't think anyone of us fully understands how bad it will get when the stores close, the power goes off, and water doesn't come out of the tap anymore. All people are going to care about is the fact that they're hungry and their children are hungry. You might have 20 people in your house all carrying stuff away as fast as they can. I wouldn't bet my life that my friends and neighbors are good people. On the contrary, everyone you know will think you owe them something. I think we all have more to worry about from people we know than from strangers.


you only have to look to Katrina for a what if. everything went wrong there, the people:, the police, and the government. :help: :shtf:


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## horology (Mar 23, 2010)

Yeah, we know how to defend ourselves should the need arise, however, we have chosen to live in a place where the likelihood of needing to do that is minuscule.

And don't think that having lots and lots of ammo makes you safe. The one who fires the most bullets, loses. It ain't a game. If you've never had the experience, you're in for a real surprise when it comes to the nitty-gritty.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*The art of survival*

The art of survival is all about risk assesment. I would only fight if I knew the odds were in favor of me winning. You need a catch of supplys and a weapon outside your home or bunker. If the odds are not in your favor, you can retreat and retake your supplys later. If you can't defend your possition, they can't defend it either.


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## philjam (Dec 17, 2008)

I will not resist. Tragically, my weapons were lost in a boating accident.


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## GreyWolfAlpha (Aug 21, 2011)

"Yes" and it will not be pleasant for the attackers.


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## redneckhillbilly (Aug 28, 2010)

no one really wants to try taking anything from my household. i firmly believe in the 3 S's. If it during normal law abiding times and i have a home invasion the leo's will be informed that they need to bring a meat wagon to remove the trash from my property. if it during a shtf time then the 3 S's will apply. nuff said.
i have no problem helping someone out but it will be on my terms.


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## MonsterMalak (Aug 24, 2011)

*Nothing is 100% foolproof*

But unless your near bulletproof, and could outrun a pack of beast, would be best to go find an easier target. But with enough desparation, the situation might present itself.
Far from being a doomsdayer, unfortunatly I feel our society is already headed in a downward spiral. The crime and desparation are already here just with the inflation and economy.
It is my hopes that if things do degrade significantly, I will have more time to prepare. Have some guns, ammo and reloading equipment. Knowledge of trapping, hunting, farming with the land and livestock to do it. And I have the most capable Guardian Dogs, the BOZ SHEPHERD. Few people would be able to evade a pack of beast. And hopefully like now, there will always be an easier target.


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## Graebarde (Aug 30, 2011)

Come to my door with malice in your heart, desire to take what is mine, harm my family.. Revelation will be seen in the flash of light to those that transgress. I show mercy to those type. And there is no such thing as shooting to wound, or warning shots. My first encounter with being shot at occured in 1965, second in 1967.. both BEFORE I went into the army in 68. I am well over the inital shock of violence.

FB


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## VUnder (Sep 1, 2011)

Daphnetree said:


> No, I am not prepared to kill people for my "stuff", this is not to say I am not into security, reducing or limiting the temptation for those to inclined to steal. If things get bad, my life experience so far as well as seeing how people react in natural disasters is that the majority of people help others, want to contribute, will not immediatedly go into rip off mode. There is a minority of people, like as in now, that crime is easier than work, and for those situations part of my prep is about security. I have created mechanisms to help others, and part of what I prep is saving food and medical supplies not only for my family, but neighbors and others in need who did not have the foresight to prep, but are nontheless good people. Most people would be willing to work for food if needed. If it is a matter of spending money on guns to protect my stuff, I would rather spend it on extra stuff, so if it came down to it, I would have enough to spare. Guns are expensive. How many lbs of beans can I buy for one gun?


You could get a whole warehouse full of beans if you use that gun correctly......


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## partdeux (Aug 3, 2011)

If you're not prepared to truly defend your homestead, up to and including killing someone, then you might as well put a sign on the door and say come take my life. And give your firearm to someone that is prepared to use it.

WRT 22, there was a study of deaths by firearms done in OH. I can't find the link right now, but the 22 was no slouch, near the top of the deaths. A magazine of .22's hitting their target is far superior to misses by a .45.


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## VUnder (Sep 1, 2011)

One guy on here posted a link to a guy that was shooting through a turkey with three layers of clothes on it at 300 yards. He was even surprised it went through the first layers of clothing. Shooter was very surprised it went through and out the back and kept going. Very informative.


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## laylow (Jul 28, 2009)

partdeux said:


> If you're not prepared to truly defend your homestead, up to and including killing someone, then you might as well put a sign on the door and say come take my life. And give your firearm to someone that is prepared to use it.
> 
> WRT 22, there was a study of deaths by firearms done in OH. I can't find the link right now, but the 22 was no slouch, near the top of the deaths. A magazine of .22's hitting their target is far superior to misses by a .45.


The point is not to kill, but to stop. Yes, a few .22 rounds may indeed kill with the best of them, but they likely won't stop an attacker in his tracks like some heavier rounds. If the guy can still reach you and harm you, then dies later of his wounds, your shots were pretty much pointless. Of course, in the end, it's all about shot placement and luck.


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