# Probate



## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

This is more a plea than a prep...

Please, for the sake of your families, write a will. If you don't see the need take a look at your state's probate laws surrounding estates without a will. 

Sorry for the downer.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

I disagree, it is a prep. Both sets of grandparents had their funerals paid for years before they died. We prepare for all sorts of the misfortunes of life. Death is not a possible outcome it is guaranteed. Arguing over land or cash may be disruptive enough to the family but who gets Grandmas jewelry or Grandpas guns. Many things have both financial and emotional value.

My brother has asked me to raise his three kids if something happens to him and his wife. Neither he nor his wife have a will even though they know that her mother will want to control the kids as that would give her control of their inheritance. How many thousands am I supposed to spend on attorneys to satisfy his wishes when a couple hundred bucks would take care of the problem. The State is not going to do this for free either.

Thanks for bringing up the subject Grimm. The great thing about this prep is that once it is done you don't have to worry about it unless there are major changes in your life.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Caribou said:


> I disagree, it is a prep. Both sets of grandparents had their funerals paid for years before they died. We prepare for all sorts of the misfortunes of life. Death is not a possible outcome it is guaranteed. Arguing over land or cash may be disruptive enough to the family but who gets Grandmas jewelry or Grandpas guns. Many things have both financial and emotional value.
> 
> My brother has asked me to raise his three kids if something happens to him and his wife. Neither he nor his wife have a will even though they know that her mother will want to control the kids as that would give her control of their inheritance. How many thousands am I supposed to spend on attorneys to satisfy his wishes when a couple hundred bucks would take care of the problem. The State is not going to do this for free either.
> 
> Thanks for bringing up the subject Grimm. The great thing about this prep is that once it is done you don't have to worry about it unless there are major changes in your life.


Actually, if your brother really wants you to raise the kids all he and his wife have to do is write up a letter stating that, signed, witnessed and have it notarized. If everyone involved (you, them, any other trusted family member) has a notarized copy and there is one is a safety deposit box no one can argue if they should pass. Plus CPS will be more likely to honor their wishes if it is somewhat official. It may only cost $50 depending on how many copies are notarized.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

I bring this up because K's dad passed on Sunday. His dad has a lot of debt he shared with his new wife and debt he did not. As well as he had property(a house) solely in his name from before he remarried. California probate states the following...

California Probate Law – Probate Without a Will

In situations where the decedent died without a will (“intestate”), California Probate Law generally distributes the estate as follows:

If there is a surviving spouse, that spouse receives:

All community property.

As to the decedent’s separate property–if there is any– according to PROBATE CODE SECTION 6400-6414, the surviving spouse shall receive:

All of it, if the decedent did not leave any surviving issue1, parent, brother, sister, or issue of a deceased brother or sister.
One half of it, if the decedent has only one child or has one deceased child with issue.
One half of it, if the decedent leaves no issue but leaves a parent or parents – or leaves their issue or the issue of either of them.
One-third of it, if the decedent leaves more than one child, leaves one child and the issue of one or more deceased children, or leaves issue of two or more deceased children.
The rest goes first to the decedent’s surviving children or, if any of them are deceased, to the children’s surviving issue.

1 “Issue” means all the lineal descendants of an individual. An adopted individual is a lineal descendant of each of his or her adoptive parents and of all individuals with regard to which each adoptive parent is a lineal descendant. A child conceived prior to the death of a parent but born after the death of the deceased parent is considered to be the surviving issue of the deceased parent for purposes of this title.

If the decedent has no surviving children or deceased children with surviving issue, the rest goes to:
The decedent’s parents, if living.
The decedent’s brothers and sisters (or their issue if any of them are deceased).
General Steps Necessary for Completing a California Probate Process

The California Probate Process is a “legal process” that begins with a “Petition for Probate” (or “a request”) to open the estate and name a “Personal Representative” (oftentimes called an Executor or Administrator). The Personal Representative will be responsible for the administration of the decedent’s estate, including all property and assets. A “Notice of Administration” is sent to involved parties. Creditors then have a defined amount of time in which to file their claims against the estate from the date of the first publication. If the Executor or Administrator deems creditor’s claims worthy he or she can pay them or may challenge them in court if there are doubts to their authenticity. Next, the Executor or Administrator can distribute any remaining estate assets among any heirs and beneficiaries. Finally, to complete the California Probate Process, a Petition for Discharge is filed, and with the approval of the Probate court, the estate is closed.


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## bugoutbob (Nov 11, 2012)

I am a pastor and in my chosen vocation I deal with many people who are dying and with the aftermath of death. I cannot overestimate the truth and importance of Grimm's comments. Everyone needs a will. Even with a proper will things can get contentious at times because death brings out both the very best and the very worst in people. Get one made in accordance with the legislation in your area and review it periodically, certainly every time their is a life changing event (marriage, divorce, new child, acquisition or disposal of significant assets etc).

I personally know of two ladies who have spent more than $30,000 in legal fees over their mother's $1500 ring because each wants it and there was no will. Yes, that's extreme, but you can never go wrong in being prepared.


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## Roslyn (Feb 20, 2012)

That's a huge reason we moved off my husband's family's land. It's owned in full by his Mother who left it uncared for more than 13 years ago. His sister lived there with her loser hubbie and kids because she thought it would be "free". She systematically broke every single item she possibly could.

Hubbie and I moved in after she left and went South to mooch full time off her Mother. We spent a huge amount of money to keep the place up and even started making improvements because we were told when we were ready to build then the paperwork would be done and we would own at least the part of the property that we lived on.

Hubbie grew up hearing from his Mother, over and over, "5 acres of this property is yours". Over and over.

She bought a house down the street from her own house for sister #1, took out two loans for the mortgage and down payment. Most months she pays those bills, not the sister. She has bought cars, boats, stuff for this sister and is practically supporting her/husband and kids.

Sister #2 (the one that trashed the property's trailer we lived in) lives in her house with her kids (the husband is gone now-shocker) and the sister pays for NOTHING for her living there, or her kids. Mother pays for stuff, all things for the kids, and usually pays for the cars as well.

Brother #1 married a woman with a wealthy sugar family, but he also has had lots of things (cars, land, tractor) paid by his Mama.

Us?? Here and there she has bought things for gifts. She bought our rototiller 9 years ago as a whole family Christmas gift. She bought a flat screen Tv that is our computer screen for another Christmas gift.

We refuse to live near her, they are all leeches and drama makers. So we don't get into the financial gifts they do. We just wanted to buy the land to live on, to make use of. Nope, that never happened.

The moral of my story is......we lived there and were putting our money there AND SHE HAS FLAT OUT REFUSED TO MAKE A WILL IN ANY WAY. Yes, *she has refused to make a will*. No one can figure it out, but we saw the future hell it will be after she inevitably goes and we got out. We are in our own house, and on a small 1 acre instead of the 20 acres in the woods with a natural gas well. But we are free.

None of them seem to understand that since she lives in one state, and owns land in another, both states can put their spoons in the pot. All the siblings live on property (except the brother)that belongs to her alone. Her property here in PA is abandoned and now listed as condemned and not fit for habitability.

Those siblings are going to become animals to fight over her property and her "stuff". She has a hoarder mentality and her house down South is trashed for lack of upkeep and just plain lazy living. Both sisters have a hoarder mentality and they all just want the piles of stuff to call their own. The brother just wants money, money, money. It's going to be a bloody battle when she goes. I don't think any of them realize how everything is hanging by a thread because she is carrying a huge debt load, H*U*G*E. My husband and I get it, they don't.

Even writing something down, the basics and get it signed, notarized and filed. Something that is considered legal. Especially once those inheritance and death taxes hit you. It will be a bumpy ride.

_*Only the lawyers win in the end.*_


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

Thanks Grimm. He can certainly afford the cash to get a will off the net. I think he is afraid that having a will means he is ready to die. We all have our own weird hangups and this is one of his. He is a wonderful person but this quirk of his worries me. I have accepted that I don't get to make this decision for him. I don't mention it here to find an answer, for it is not mine to find, but to open the eyes of those of us that are dragging their feet on the issue.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Roslyn said:


> That's a huge reason we moved off my husband's family's land. It's owned in full by his Mother who left it uncared for more than 13 years ago. His sister lived there with her loser hubbie and kids because she thought it would be "free". She systematically broke every single item she possibly could.
> 
> Hubbie and I moved in after she left and went South to mooch full time off her Mother. We spent a huge amount of money to keep the place up and even started making improvements because we were told when we were ready to build then the paperwork would be done and we would own at least the part of the property that we lived on.
> 
> ...


Here in Cali my FIL's house will not go to the wife or kids but back to the bank that holds the 3 mortgages. All his personal item will have to be sold to pay off his debt. His wife is currently sucking up to the kids in hopes they continue to let her stay in the house. I don't think anyone in the family realizes that there will be nothing left once his creditors stake claim.

I'm not concerned with the 5 kids fighting over stuff because it all has to be sold. In the end everyone in that messed up family will get theirs...

Now, I am an only child. When both my parents go I know they have a will which they update every 5-10 years. The will sets up all money into a trust to pay off any debt and expenses. Their house is paid off so there is no worry about the bank coming after it. Yes, I know what lawyer wrote the will and what bank the safe deposit box is at.


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

One thing to further illustrate Grimm's point is to relate what happened to me.
My Mom passed recently and she had luckily completed a will about 10 years ago. I have been handling her financial affairs since Dad passed and I thought I had done everything correctly.
Unfortunately, I made a $3000 mistake by not having her brokerage accounts properly set up so I had to go through probate.
I was the beneficiary on her IRA and in that account, I had no issues. I was simply required to mail in a death certificate and open a beneficiary IRA. That took about 2 weeks to go through and have the assets under my control.
However on her regular account, I failed to have a TOD (turnover on death) form signed by her for that account. So I ended up having to go through probate which cost the $3K plus a significant time delay.
As part of your estate planning, make sure you have properly set everything up so the distribution of your assets can be done in a timely manner and with a minimum of expense.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Things can go bad enough WITH a will, not having one is asking for trouble, especially if land or businesses are involved but even with a "simple" situation.

Roslyn, I think you made a good choice, when dealing with family members like that it is unpleasant to have to make the hard choices but it is better than getting completely worked over. Even if they made a will, I have seen many changed at the last minute under the influence of "needy" relatives and it is usually the hard working, responsible ones who get the short end of the stick.


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## showmegal (Sep 14, 2011)

I'm not great at posting so hand in there with me and I hope this makes sense. My father passed quickly back in Dec. He was a lawyer, had a will which he left me everything. So, what he had done was TOD (and you can do this yourself) all his assets. Cars, house, bank accounts. This keeps it out of probate. Here is the kicker. He had a second house we live in. My name was not on it so I had to file probate so the bank would even talk to me. Got that done then you get options. It had a mortgage and they were pushing for us to refinance it. Watch it because had I not asked the bank a numerous amount of times what all the options meant we would have thought we had to refinance. We were told that we could continue making the payments under one option. So we start digging and there is a law that was passed (garn st germain) stating they can't call the loan and we can keep making the payments. Next problem. Insurance did like that its still in his name so they tell us they are dropping it. So here we sit pulling out hair out. Called the attorney told him what we did and he had no clue about the garn st germain. After much digging on the internet we find we can simple change the name at the title company with the court papers from the probate. So after all this fiasco we have decided that we will TOD everything we can. Have a will and more importantly have a step by step guide for the kids as to what they need to do because it was pretty stressful to deal with the death alone then throw in the paperwork and it becomes a nightmare.


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## Roslyn (Feb 20, 2012)

cowboyhermit said:


> Roslyn, I think you made a good choice, when dealing with family members like that it is unpleasant to have to make the hard choices but it is better than getting completely worked over. Even if they made a will, I have seen many changed at the last minute under the influence of "needy" relatives and it is usually the hard working, responsible ones who get the short end of the stick.


Thanks. In the past 6 years, seeing his family and the mess of chaos they live in I think it was the best thing we could have ever done. I did not want to saddle myself with a mortgage, we wanted to build ourselves, but getting out was a good thing. I also got my kids out of a problematic school district as well.

Getting my husband out of the "but it's going to be mine" mentality has been a whole 'nother ball game! He grew up with the dream of owning his own country property, and that d*mn woman is still dangling that d*mn property in front of him like some kind of carrot on a stick. He has taken off the rose colored glasses and is coming around, she now is saying how she's going to sign over 10 acres to him exclusively. Kay. That was about 2 years ago and no paperwork has ever been done.

I have told him that all she needs to do is quick sell it to him or put his name with hers on the property so he is a co-owner, but she just can't let anyone have what is hers. It's the whole MINE crap that the whole family lives by.

I do a small evil chuckle when she has gone on and on about how she didn't need a will because she is buying insurance that will pay off the mortgages of her houses and properties. OOokkkay, that pays the mortgage, NOT passes the ownership onto her children. It just means that the house will be paid off when they sell it to pay the lawyers and the taxes after probate.

The kicker is......HER mother died several years ago in another state. No will, and she was living in a house that was in her deceased husband's name. I don't think they researched much because the extended family of the husband would have been able to make a claim on the house. It wasn't worth much and was in need of major repairs. By the time it was sold, the money didn't cover all the costs and expenses and taxes due. Lose---lose.

Back then we thought it would jump start her into protecting her children from the same thing. Nope. Nadda. However that was when my husband started listening to me and we started house shopping shortly after.

It's not easy to think about these things, but it is the one true guarantee in life. We the living can make it easier, or hard, or d*mn near impossible.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

showmegal said:


> I'm not great at posting so hand in there with me and I hope this makes sense. My father passed quickly back in Dec. He was a lawyer, had a will which he left me everything. So, what he had done was TOD (and you can do this yourself) all his assets. Cars, house, bank accounts. This keeps it out of probate. Here is the kicker. He had a second house we live in. My name was not on it so I had to file probate so the bank would even talk to me. Got that done then you get options. It had a mortgage and they were pushing for us to refinance it. Watch it because had I not asked the bank a numerous amount of times what all the options meant we would have thought we had to refinance. We were told that we could continue making the payments under one option. So we start digging and there is a law that was passed (garn st germain) stating they can't call the loan and we can keep making the payments. Next problem. Insurance did like that its still in his name so they tell us they are dropping it. So here we sit pulling out hair out. Called the attorney told him what we did and he had no clue about the garn st germain. After much digging on the internet we find we can simple change the name at the title company with the court papers from the probate. So after all this fiasco we have decided that we will TOD everything we can. Have a will and more importantly have a step by step guide for the kids as to what they need to do because it was pretty stressful to deal with the death alone then throw in the paperwork and it becomes a nightmare.


This may seem stupid but I am a printables junkie. Now, for the past few days I have been printing out every free finance and bills/budget printable I can get my hands on. I am filling them all out with all our account info and debt info. I plan to keep an updated set in my firesafe, another in a sealed envelope with my folks (they will store it in their safe deposit box) and a copy for regular use for paying bills. Since all the info including passwords are in one place if we die Roo will have everything to take care of our estate.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Here is another story to push some of you...

My grandmother passed 12 years ago. She had changed her will a year before her death and told no one. My dad hired a lawyer just so he could see the new will because the executor(his sister) refused to show him. Turns out Granny had written my dad out of the will except the minimum 10K to prevent him from contesting the will. Now, my dad spent the 10K hiring the lawyer just to see the will, but if he had not we never would have learned Granny wrote me in for 25% of her estate.

Now, here it is 12 years later and the executor still has not issued any money to me as directed by the will. In fact she has been taking money out of the estate to buy a house and a car etc. This is all illegal since she can not take anything until my share has been issued as is the probate law in NY. I am in CA so the executor thinks she can scam me...

Long story short, I am in the hole for over 30K to my NY lawyer and have not seen a penny. This is an on going issue too.
*
KNOW AND TRUST THE PERSON YOU NAME AS EXECUTOR!*


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

This is an interesting thread.

We are having a related dilemma. We have a very clear and specific will, including a living will and do not resuscitate documents. Our issue is our children. It's hard to find someone to take the number of children we have and it's even harder to find someone who will raise them the way we want them to be raised. If my wife and I both pass at the same time the person who receives the children should not have a financial burden as we have a substantial amount of life insurance and we both have vested pensions / retirement accounts. We have family members who could take the kids, but have very different social/political views (no good). We have other family members with very similar social/political views but they have no faith (no good). Our closest friends share similar social, political and spiritual beliefs already have 5 kids of their own and are not into preparedness (no good). In one year our oldest will be able to become the guardian of the others, but that creates issues and hardships I don't want to put on her either. 

I guess I will just have to make sure my wife survives until the kids are all out of the house.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Sentry18 said:


> This is an interesting thread.
> 
> We are having a related dilemma. We have a very clear and specific will, including a living will and do not resuscitate documents. Our issue is our children. It's hard to find someone to take the number of children we have and it's even harder to find someone who will raise them the way we want them to be raised. If my wife and I both pass at the same time the person who receives the children should not have a financial burden as we have a substantial amount of life insurance and we both have vested pensions / retirement accounts. We have family members who could take the kids, but have very different social/political views (no good). We have other family members with very similar social/political views but they have no faith (no good). Our closest friends share similar social, political and spiritual beliefs already have 5 kids of their own and are not into preparedness (no good). In one year our oldest will be able to become the guardian of the others, but that creates issues and hardships I don't want to put on her either.
> 
> I guess I will just have to make sure my wife survives until the kids are all out of the house.


You could write it up that family/friends take care of the kids til your oldest is out of college. Then she could take them til the next one is out of college and so on down the line til they are all of age. This will make sure they stay together and are raised for the most part with the values you want. It also allows the oldest to share the burden and not be stuck til your youngest (the toddler) is of age.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

All of the stories in this thread illustrate the need for a will and a trustworthy executor. There are two points I will add.

1) If there is no will and there is enough money involved, the court will appoint an attorney of the court's choosing to be the executor. The executor is able to charge a very substantial fee to the estate. Those funds obviously do not go to the hiers.

2) While doing some genealogy on my family I discovered that my cousins believed they owned a family cemetery. They had a copy of the deed that had been handed down, but the last living owner died in 1868 and the deed had not been transferred to living individuals since that time. The town considered it abandoned. The last living owner died without a will. Several of us decided we wanted to regain control of the cemetery so we could fix it up. Despite the fact that no one else wanted it, or was interested in it, it took 2 1/2 years to get a quit claim deed. In other words, the lack of a will in 1868 was still a problem in 2010. To top it off, the ancestor with no will was buried in that cemetery and her grave was unmarked, although we have no way of knowing whether there was a marker, now missing, or never was a marker. We have since marked her grave with a new bronze marker.


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## crabapple (Jan 1, 2012)

Sorry for your trouble.
I have heard these stories all my life.
I am very, very lucky!
My father passed with out a will & there was no fighting between mother & six children.
Land was cut up into 7 parts & tools where used by all on the farm land, woodlot, so on.
My brother in law sold me my sister land when she passed.
I wish everyone could be as blessed as I am.
I have a will & up date it as needed.
I am very proud of my family.
It could have been different, it was not.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

Grimm said:


> This may seem stupid but I am a printables junkie. Now, for the past few days I have been printing out every free finance and bills/budget printable I can get my hands on. I am filling them all out with all our account info and debt info. I plan to keep an updated set in my firesafe, another in a sealed envelope with my folks (they will store it in their safe deposit box) and a copy for regular use for paying bills. Since all the info including passwords are in one place if we die Roo will have everything to take care of our estate.


More people should do this. We have a red 1 inch binder where we keep all the information needed in the event of our death. In that binder is specific, detailed instructions on what to do. We've included all account information, passwords, safe combinations, location of deeds & titles, assets vs liabilities, etc. We've also included the names & contact information of trusted friends of ours willing to help with specific tasks. We have one friend who knows about gun values & will make sure our kids get top dollar for the guns they want to sell. We have another friend that will supervise the selling of all the construction equipment, another for the plane & hanger, etc. Many people have collections of valuables & their heirs end up getting taken because they sold things they didn't know the value of, even though the deceased had a trusted friend that would've been happy to help the family. Both of our fathers also have a copy of the book.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

Sister. Never married, no children. For the last 15 years she has been living with our parents. She's taken a load off of my mind knowing the parents aren't alone. She wasn't charged "rent" but before the recent economy downfall she paid the utility bills, property tax and her share plus of the groceries. She wasn't and isn't a "freeloader".

Two years ago Dad died. No mortgage, no loans no debts. Funeral was prepaid. Between Dad's "investments" and social security Mom can have a comfortable life. Property, car and bank accounts were in Dad's and/or Mom's name. His will name me as Executor (generation first son mentality) everything goes to Mom, nothing for me to do. 

Sister and I have added our names to the Car title. We also have been added as Power of Attorney to the bank accounts. Last step is to have our name added to the property deed (Sister was working on this but got side tracked. I'd better get it done before...).

Mom's will also names me as Executor and leaves everything 50/50 between my Sister and me. 

When the time comes Sister (she is retired) wants the house but if she buys out my interest she wouldn't have any cash left. House has a new roof, siding and new windows, Dad was particular about upkeep. So I have made her a proposal. She assumes responsibility for 100% of repairs, upkeep and taxes and the house is her's (but my name remains on the title). Only string attached is that she names my 2 children (married) as her heirs as far as the house is concerned. My children are NOT aware of this deal (I don't want to create a possible "it was promised to me" situation).

My will leaves my estate 50/50 to my 2 children (which would include the house in case the sister forgets). Children should have a pleasant surprise.


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## dixiemama (Nov 28, 2012)

In KY the law is this:

NO WILL: spouse gets half, kids split the rest. If there are no children, wife gets half, parents gets the rest. No parents, then it goes to siblings. 

WITH WILL: whatever it says goes. Petition to Probate is filed, Executor/trix is appointed, creditors have 6 months to file claim. Inventory is filed. If no claims, Final Settlement and Distribution are filed and estate closed. 

I actually have a case now where a man died, no wife, no kids, no parents or siblings. I'm having to track down his cousins to inherit his moderate estate.


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