# The debate



## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

Alright .... so hubby and I have been having 'The Great Debate' lol...

The question is simple ...

How many city people will "walk' when the :shtf:

I say city folk are ... well city folk and will not leave but wait for someone to help them ...

Hubby said people will leave the city and look else where ...

Now ... I do not say "all city people will stay" ... If they have a BOB, BOV or BOL ... well ... they will go ... but I say "A TRUE" city person will not leave the city. 

We have taken this to the peppers at hubbies work ... and run 6 with me and 3 with him ... so tell me what you think ...

When the :shtf: will city folk walk or not??????

Yes they will walk (and why)
No they will NOT walk (and why)


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

I think those who Camp or hunt will prolly leave the city , those who don't wouldn't know what to do if they did leave, and in the case of grid failure would not know what happened. So most would prolly wait huddled expecting resque,
Where I 'am cattle rustling will become a crime with capital punishment (provided by ranchers)


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

The few city folk with some common sense will eventually leave fer greener pastures when the limited resources run out. They will venture out lookin for the better deal.

Some will simply sit around an wait, wait on help what more en likely will never come, er what does will be streched to thin. Others will simply take what they wan't from others.


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

I believe most hardcore city folk will stay put waiting for help to come. To be fair, I'm sure there are at least a few that are aware of the problems we face as a nation and what could go wrong but for the majority; they'll stay put and expect the .gov will come riding in on a white horse to save them. 

No they will NOT walk- 1 vote

Should have made it a poll.  
Is that possible here mods?


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

UncleJoe said:


> I believe most hardcore city folk will stay put waiting for help to come. To be fair, I'm sure there are at least a few that are aware of the problems we face as a nation and what could go wrong but for the majority; they'll stay put and expect the .gov will come riding in on a white horse to save them.
> 
> No they will NOT walk- 1 vote
> 
> ...


I did hope for a poll ... but didn't see how??? LOL

Thanks for the input!!


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## BlueShoe (Aug 7, 2010)

All cities are not equal nor are all states. Where communities have tax payers now that could walk if they want to continue earning, they'll walk. Where cities have high concentrations of free-loaders, they'll rot. What ever the balance is in America comparing one to the other, will be the answer.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

A lot of city people are afraid to leave the city NOW and head to the rural areas. I think only desperation will get a lot of them headed into the wilds. 

My vote would be that while a small percentage will head out of the city...most will stay, some out of fear, some because they really believe someone will show up at their door and say "I'm from the government, I'm here to help you"! Just my humble opinion!


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

*OH BOY!! a debate and a vote...*

I think they will stay behind their locked doors waiting....and ...waiting...... UNTIL!!!!
The fires and rioters and rapist and ..etc etc... start coming then they will be cattle running in front of the rustlers... and at that point they will leave the city...but then ..the rats will be running too...

I say they will for the most part stick, out of fear of the unknown...

Stick


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

I don't think many city people are going anywhere very fast, I've been in or thru most American cities and even on a normal day at rush hr everything is at a stand still, just imagine a little panic,or after the 3rd day with no food,gas,rds will be blocked, everything will come to a halt, one of the worst will be NYC, they can't get in or out without crossing a bridge,


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## Jason (Jul 25, 2009)

There is a comfort factor involved here that will affect whether people move or not. Look at some of Canadian's old posts-he lived in the city and pretty much said he'd be staying because that was where he's comfortable. My skin crawls in the city now-I feel vulnerable when I'm in a crowded arena or stopped in traffic, sepecially on a bridge or in a tunnel. I will NOT be city bound in a SHTF scenario, so to me it only makes sense that the inner city/suburban set has a similar outlook on the country. Sure, at first they may try to leave. They may take and try to steal and butcher livestock but most will not know what to do with the dead cow lying at their feet that they had to empty a whole magazine to actually hit with a kill shot. So thay'll head back to town and scavenge and wait for handouts. 

My vote-they stay in the cities and suburbs.


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## horseman09 (Mar 2, 2010)

We live in a very rural area where lots of city people have cabins. Those are the people -- with their friends, who will be coming up, most of them completely unprepared. When the city dwellers start starving, then even they will migrate out of the city.


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## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

I think most will stay put, as long as they can.

Once they realize nobody's coming to help, they may try to get out but by then, it's too late. Looting, rioting and firefights in the streets will force most back indoors. The ones that do get out of the city then need to face those that are in the suburbs who are trying to protect their own. I wouldn't expect more then a couple percent of the city's population to actually make it to rural areas. Those that do will be 2 very different groups. Raiders and Survivalists. The former will cause some problems until they're eliminated. The latter would be able to assimilate.


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## OldFashionedMama (Jun 18, 2009)

Our decision to stay or go will depend on many factors. We do have the option to leave the city and relocate to a secluded and secure location. If something happened that caused gridcrash, right now we would have to leave. That, however is something I want to fix. The way I see it, all the desperate people will flee the city, not even realizing that there are ways to get by. I am in what I consider to be a unique and fortunate location, within walking distance of a several-thousand-acre park-most of which is densely forested. If I can stay in my own house long enough to let the crazies leave the city, I'd have the whole place to myself and maybe a few other likeminded people. Plenty of small game, wild fruit trees, fish, and other things to survive on here.


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## Catastrophy (Mar 19, 2010)

If you want to know what city folk are going to do, look in your history books - the early part of the 20th Century - when the stock market crashed, there was high unemployment and no welfare state.


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## horseman09 (Mar 2, 2010)

Catastrophy said:


> If you want to know what city folk are going to do, look in your history books - the early part of the 20th Century - when the stock market crashed, there was high unemployment and no welfare state.


IMHO, there is no American precedent for our current situation. Americans were a far different breed then (the Great Depression) than now, with few exceptions. One of the reasons is precisely what you stated: "No unemployment and no welfare state" back then. People knew how to survive because they *had* to.

Today, some cities have as high as 50% of their population sucking off the government tit. Many of those are generational, meaning they never worked, nor did their pappy, nor their grandpappy. *These* people will be our greatest threat in many SHTF scenarios, including what we might consider inconvenient but minor occurances, e.g., a widespread power outage for a few months. Even a widespread blackout for a week, and many cities will burn and the animals will run the zoo.


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## PopPop (Sep 14, 2010)

We know the answer - Katrina!


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

PopPop said:


> We know the answer - Katrina!


I'll have to admit, the Katrina Example *is* rather anecdotal for certain segments of the population


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## philjam (Dec 17, 2008)

All those part of the drug culture, welfare recipients and elderly, will stay put.


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## neil-v1 (Jan 22, 2010)

I think once word get's out that some people are leaving the cities after (and if) shtf, you will see them leaving in mass and invading the countryside and I don't think they will be too nice by that time. They will be looking to take what they need. I would think they will be out of everything and be starving and they will have no manner's or respect for any kind of correct social behavior (hell, some don't now) and they will be big trouble for even the most prepared people. The biggest problem for folk's like us here on this site is having anough ammo I think. That may sound stupid, but I really feel that to be true. The prepared are either going to have to be out of the way and unseen or they will have to be an army ready to throw serious lead down range at very large hoard's of people. My plan is to stay out of the way as long as possible.........and then start shooting when need be.


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## RoadRash (Sep 29, 2010)

The masses think the government will look after them as they have the intire life. I am new to this live in the city and know that I have to look out for my familys well being.I will shelter in place then assess situation so at some point will need to leave the city to feed family after the supply runs out.
Barracade ourselves in turn home into fortress 
Pray for the best work together get through what ever it is.


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## Jarhead0311 (Sep 17, 2010)

I've never understood this idea of a mass exodus from the cities. The ones with someplace to go (BOL, relatives,friends) may leave but most have no place to go. I can't see thousands leaving only to roam looking for something better. I think they will stay home expecting the government to come and save them, that's all they know, that's the way its always been.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

I grew up in the mountains with all kinds of wild animals as my neighbors, well, that and a few people too. I spent all my time as a child roaming up and down the mountains, through creeks, streams, rivers, etc. I peddled my bike down mountain-goat paths and deer-trails. I know what the outdoors has and I enjoy it.

One of my best friends grew up in the urban-jungle and had never seen "nature" outside the city-limits. I thought that it would be a good idea to show him some real nature, real outdoors - so - a quick day-hike was in order.

Lets just say that after the little walk through streams, creeks, over beaver-dams, along deer-trails, catching up to some moose and finding momma-bear with her three cublettes - he was ready to curl up and become a meal for momma-bear.

He learned quickly that the real world is as dangerous as the urban world - and - that he was out of his element.

For those who fear the cities, know that the city-folk fear the country.

For those who fear the country, know that the country-folk fear the city.

I think that 90% of the people will try to stay put where they would feel the most comfortable. Where that comfort level is would be either city or country-side, few, like myself is comfortable in both.


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## horseman09 (Mar 2, 2010)

If people are starving and have been displaced from their homes by violent, roving gangs, many of them will natually move away from the "heat" just as a person instinctively moves his hand away from a hot object. The direction of their travel will be toward the countryside because the heat will be less concentrated, IMHO.


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## ajsmith (Feb 1, 2010)

I think the emptier there bellies are the more they'll be looking farther from home. May take some time but when they get hungry enough they'll try to be John Wayne and head for the hills.


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## Tennessepreppers (Sep 7, 2010)

I believe it will depend on the situation and I'd there's any advance warning just look at hurricane evacuation now when thereafter warning the ones that care heed the warning and the sheeple stay and wait for someone else to do the work for them. The welfare state of mind folks will always have their hand out as if they're owed. The responsible ones will look else where.


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## mickbear (Apr 9, 2009)

my problem is how many people stop by when they see me working in the garden or working my honey bees.they think just because someone lives in the country that they have an unlimited supply of food.thats my main worry should something go wrong people thinking "hay those folks in the country got plenty lets head out there"


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## TimB (Nov 11, 2008)

I think the biggest part of a cities population would stay put, simply because they would have no idea how to take care of themselves outside their "comfort zone". There will be a small part who leave as they are prepared to do so and probably a smaller percentage that will leave when things really start going bad but will have no idea of how to survive or where to go.

Tim


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## ditzyjan56 (Oct 3, 2009)

*I vote wait in city till too late*

Lived in a big city for a couple of years and my thoughts are they will try and wait it out. A lot of people in the big cities rely on public transportation, so when :shtf: they will be sol. The others with their own transportation will try and wait it out in their comfortable homes. Local police will be telling people to "be calm and everything will be back to normal and running soon"
By the time everyone realizes all their supplies are gone and nothing is going to come in there will be rioting in the streets. Most won't know where to go or how to get there, a sad thought but true.
I live in WV and expect to have some unwelcome guests. That's why I'm glad all my rowdy friends and neighbors have guns and rifles,we will be the welcoming committee. While I'm from out of state I have lived in WV for 25 years, everyone around me has "been born here,gonna live here, and will die here" as some of them say when you ask them about where they have lived. I know that in a 15 mile stretch of road that my daughter lives on you can count on Grandma Isola, her twin brothers Hartzel and Hartzel and their kids and their grandkids. (my daughter rents a house off of one of the cousins). They all own about 300-400 acres each. Pictures of Red Dawn float through my mind when I think about it.As i recall one of the boys just got out of prison for shoting someone he got in a fight with.
Well now I'm getting off subject here, but you get the picture.


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## thunderdan19 (Oct 12, 2010)

I think most of the city folk will fight over what's left for as long as they can before leaving the cities. 

As for suburban dwellers, if they have a plan, they will likely follow it and head out of town pronto. If they don't or can't, they will have to face the folks that are accustomed to receiving their handouts on the first of the month (once all the local stores have been looted dry). The "have" neighborhoods will get invaded by the "have nots" just as soon as law and order break down.

Once the chaos sets in, many will exit the city and the 'burbs only to flounder about on the highways until they run out of gas or get raided.


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## wildman800 (Oct 17, 2008)

I also believe that the small percentage of Preppers will figure out that the situation is very serious and will leave early for BOL's or friends/family outside of the city. 

I believe that the vast majority will sit tight to hang on until "things get back to normal". A significant part of a city's population is going to wait for the "Gubmint to arrive and take care of them". The majority of these folks will die in the cities, waiting for help that will never arrive.

The hardcases will rob, pillage, rape, and burn the weak until there is nothing left, then those survivors will leave the cities to start finding and taking resources as they can find them.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

*I have two words in answer: Social Security*

Most people have been brainwashed to believe that the government can/will fix every problem eventually. That's why despite all evidence that entitlements like social security will bankrupt the government and eventually come to a screeching halt so many in society live in denial that that could ever happen.

Its not in their realm of possibility...

That's why I say that most will stay way too long, and eventually slowly trickle out of the when reality hits them over the head with a two by four. But without a major incident, like rioting or fires, which will eventually come, most will accept the power shutting off, food runs, government MRE lines, curfews, etc. for weeks. Sadly when they finally realize they need to run, the water will most likely have stopped working for a couple of days and they will be without even that one most necessary prep needed for survival.


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## lefty (Sep 29, 2011)

panic can make people do things.

In 2005 when Rita hit Houston. I was taking the amily ot we came across the woman banging on her car screaming. Long story short. She paniced decieded to flee, got in her car with 4 pottles of water her ipod and lap top. She was 25 and alone. No one but my wife and I stopped, She had locked her keys in her car. I picked lock and then had to jump her btty. 

She paniced and went stupid. It will happen


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

Well, this one is rather tough to answer...

I voted that they would filter out of the cities. However, a more accurate description (I believe), would be that about a third of them will wander out of the cities, and third will die in short order, and a third will stay and become short-lived lords of dead cities.

However, this question (which, by the way, is a fine debate!:wave gets rather muddied in areas such as mine; the vast majority of the area between Baltimore, Annapolis, and D.C. is really just one giant sprawling suburb. It can be tough for folks who have lived their entire lives to grasp that there are no distinct "towns", only arbitrary lines on the map that divide the area. It isn't like in the Mid-west where you have a town, cornfields, cornfields, cornfields, town, cornfields, cornfields, cornfields, etcetera, etcetera... As such, there will be a massive and sudden die-off when areas such as this run out of food.

All reasons why I desperately want to move away from here, and plan to run away as soon as possible if something were to happen!


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## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

And another issue---if electricity is disrupted, no gas pumps---right?

How many go home with a full tank??

I DON"T go home without an almost full tank---Swifty's doesn't like me---but one of my vehicles is always on full..

Now, these city dwellers will know they can't get far w. a 1/4 tank.

And even if pumps work, the lines, etc?? and how many have cash if ATMs and cc aren't working??


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## Clarice (Aug 19, 2010)

At first I think most people will stay where they are, comfort of "home". But when things really start getting tough, no food, no utilities and no fuel for a week or two and they will start to venture out. My initial vote is no they will not leave. But heaven help us when they do start moving.


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## kejmack (May 17, 2011)

I think about 80% will stay. They have the entitlement mentality and believe the government will save them. A good number of those will either be in denial or not able to adapt and will simply die. 

About 20% will walk. They are the ones who still have a sense of self-preservation. The majority will not make it far. They won't have the skills or tools to defend themselves. They won't be in the physical shape required to survive. Most will die on the side of the road.


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## PamsPride (Dec 21, 2010)

Most people have nowhere else to go. If no one else helps them to leave by giving them money or a place to go to they will just stay where they are. It would take a lot for me to leave my home. This is my home, where I am comfortable, what we have spent blood, sweat, and tears working for. It will take a lot to make us walk away. I am sure city folk feel the same. They grew up/live in the city that is what they know and where they are comfortable.


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## JackDanielGarrett (Sep 27, 2010)

Home is home, country, city, back woods or living in a desert. IF you are ready, your ready, city or country. Now I do agree it will be tough either way. We seem to envision hoards of hungry folk stalking the streets looking for anything..your RIGHT too think that. I live in a city with about 30,000 people, to me that's a lot of hunger crazed folk trying to survive.

I have a BOL 45 mins from me at the river, private with game and fish. But GAWD, packing all my stuff will not be easy..... I will stay till "that moment" when I feel the twinge to run.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

We live in a rural area, and when ever we go some where near or in the city or a big town the comment of how much it would suck to try to get home if something happend. and we have some of the stuff we need to travel. To just leave your home to head to the counrty in hopes of finding salvation would be a pretty big gamble. Would many people be able to recognize which plants are which in a garden , let alone the wild.


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## Ezmerelda (Oct 17, 2010)

I voted for the trickle. There will be some misplaced country folk who have family in the hinterlands to whom they can run, there will be a tiny percent of a percent who have a healthy dose of (un)common sense and leave, but the larger portion of the population will stay put because they have no where else to go, or have the "wait with your hand out and someone will fill it" mentality or, due to family situation or disability, are ready to hunker down with their supplies and stay put (but those folks aren't likely to become a liability, since they've planned to shelter in place all along).

Also, these days, there are too many people who have no idea where the stores actually get their food, so it won't occur to them that country folk have food and they don't.

Even today's social studies books make it look like food comes from a laboratory somewhere, with pictures of sprouts in sterile, lab-like greenhouses, rather than the fields...


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## kyhoti (Nov 16, 2008)

I remember a scene in a show, I think it was called Jericho, where there was a path half a mile wide where folks had trekked en masse, trying to go to greener pastures after an Event. When the cities burn, and they will due to lack of working infrastructure, people will either leave or die. This type of exodus will be gruesome in ways I can barely imagine.


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## lickit (Oct 6, 2011)

*city folk will be FORCED to leave, thru lack of water.*

no electricity means no pumps to get the water up into the water towers, or circulate it where they purify it, either. Without a fire dept or water, the towns will burn, the dog packs will be horrific, too.


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## lickit (Oct 6, 2011)

*gas, etc, wont be for sale, for paper money or cards.*

In fact, it probably won't be for sale at ALL, except maybe for gold coins or survival gear in trade. Of course, many gas station owners may well have fled or been killed, so you might be free to pull it up from the underground tanks, after using your lockaid gun on the padlocks, and using your crank operated pump and hose.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

@ lick what? -- Its interesting to think about when the dollar will stop being accepted. Most people think green paper IS money, when in fact its a symbol of money, which as Ron Paul notes, today is a symbol of a fiat make believe reality. Most people have been making believe for so long that I doubt greenbacks will fall out of use very quickly. I think it will take 1000% inflation before people realize that Congressman Paul was right about this one last detail--Gold is money.

I think its important for preppers to mentally understand that green paper is not money, because that makes it all the easier for us to give it away in trade for things that have real value--like toilet paper. The lag time between the onset of a collapse/long-term disaster and the elimination of the value of paper "money" is a huge window of opportunity--how many people will be stuck with wheelbarrels of greenbacks (most in banks that can't be accessed) and yet not one sheet of two-ply.


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## partdeux (Aug 3, 2011)

After Armageddon was really eye opening. The "positive" side to that movie was that much of the population died off due to the disease.

Made us realize a couple of things, our house is much less secure than I originally thought, several months of food is not enough, and initially BO without a secure destination is silly. Working on somehow creating a fortress may be a better plan.

Desperate hungry people are very very dangerous.


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## lickit (Oct 6, 2011)

*forget anything above ground*

it will be found, taken, searched, burned, shot up, etc. Dugouts cost nothing but your time, and one will protect you and yours very well from rifle fire, fires, storms, etc. Just be careful to conceal it well, hide the excavated dirt as you dig it, shore it up as needed, keep it small, dig only at night, preferably scanning 360 degrees every 1/2 hour or so, with a low cost, passive IR monocular. Locate above flood plains and ground water levels, of course, in a thicket, so you won''t be seen. Wear "nail sandals" within 100 yds of the dugout, so you leave no visible tracks, if you use them properly.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

Ok, I will have to agree with the majority of the posts that think that only a fairly small percent will "head for the hills".
I agree that a substantial amount will be waiting for 'big brother" to come bail them out. Of those waiting to be "bailed out" I believe some will be killed by looters, ganbangers, and all other types of crud that will crawl out of the woodwork.
I also think that unchecked fires, rampant disease (mainly caused by lack of sanitation and other factors), lack of medication, starvation, and the inability to deal with extreem temps. both cold and hot will be mean the death of a large percentage of the population of any major city.

JMHO

DM


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## JackDanielGarrett (Sep 27, 2010)

I agree with city folk "waiting on Big Brother...", "waiting on being baled out..." and even agree with "...all types of crud crawling out of the woodwork".
But the poll asked.."stay as good sheep"..."Go out grazing"..or run like Lemmings". 
SOME...not many mind you, but some will stay with there homes, like anyone would, city or rural. I will leave when I deem it, not run like some lemming over the cliff. NOR will I stay as a good sheep. And dang sure wont wait on big brother... 
MY #1 concern is my families well being. Not everyone here knows what they will do. Whats the saying.."Best laid plans???"
Just a "new member's honest opinion".


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## Immolatus (Feb 20, 2011)

I say they stay put. They will have nowhere to go. By the time they realize they cant stay, it will be too late. I am also in the DC burbs, and depending on how bad it is (whethr its hitting me in the boots or the face) I would pack up the fam and head for the hills ASAP. I am in my camper right now in WV, and this is where Im planning to be.
Some of my best friends now live in NYC, and only one has a car. My guess is that they wouldnt be able to leave, car or no, and some wouldnt want to go anyway. Most would stay where they are most comfortable, anywhere else would be just as scary to them as their assumed current situation. Imagine trying to get out of NYC in the middle of a real disaster, its just not gonna happen.


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## blarg (Sep 26, 2011)

I'm also going to take the mixed answer here. I think people who know how to survive in cities can stay and adapt in them. If all the survival skills you have revolve around surviving in a city your just going to naturally feel like you have a better chance in your native environment. 

When SHTF a good number will head out of the city with a half baked bug out plan for sure but I'd bet the majority will try and use the resources of the city to survive.


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## Ezmerelda (Oct 17, 2010)

Some city folk may be set up pretty well, as long as there is water, what with this big surge of gardens on roof-tops, balconies, and walls, as well as the bee hives sprinkled about and folks keeping chickens on their roofs...

When I first began thinking about tshtf, I focused on surviving in an urban/suburban environment because that's where I was at the time. There might be a lot of folks in the larger cities (possibly especially immigrants) who know what it's like to be in a post-collapse city (like Beirut), and have made an effort to improve their chances if it happens here. 

Unfortunately, they may still fail in their objective, since many of the largest cities are also located in states that refuse to uphold the Second Amendment. Unless they can stay invisible, their stuff will be taken by violence.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

Ezmerelda said:


> Some city folk may be set up pretty well, as long as there is water


Population is the first problem--
lots of people = lots of hungry desperate souls = lots of threats = lots of violence = lots of dead bodies = lots of disease.

However, water is the real issue. Most american's think water comes from a faucet, and very few prepare for long term survival without access to public water sources. All those roof top farms aren't worth a thing with out it, because just like most of our farms, irrigation is the weakest link. To survive in a city you need a cistern system on the roof of their building to gravity feed water to the lower floors.

Even still--I would GOOD


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## kejmack (May 17, 2011)

Padre said:


> Most american's think water comes from a faucet, and very few prepare for long term survival without access to public water sources.


I taught elementary school for a year as my "volunteer service". It was an inner city school. Most of the kids could not identify that milk came from a cow. They thought it came from the grocery store. You should have seen their adorable little faces when I explained where food came from. LOL


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