# soooo i really want and over/under, thoughts and suggestions please!



## Ration-AL

What's the best over under for survival? i'm putting together an ultralight one man BOB plan and want to only carry an over/under and a revolver the goal here is light and long distances in a single day in rough terrain, i need something that will deal well with the wet and is easy to strip and clean in the field, preferably chrome lined barrel if they make them.


i do know i want a over under though....

i am a novice when it come to the tech side of guns so i don't have a clue where to start, basically i have a room with all of my stuff laid out and various size bags and a packing plan for each one depending on the situation , i already have a few fire arms for a bug in type case and traveling as a pack/herd/group in which different people can carry different firearms, but i'm looking to get an over/under for the very very worst case scenario and end up being a lone wolf (yes i know how things turn out for the lone wolf, but i figure if it gets to that ,I'm still going to try and make it) so long story short where do i put my money?


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## mojo4

Well dump the over under idea. IMHO I would go with a hi cap 9mm semiauto pistol and a hi cap .22 semi auto rifle like a ruger 10-22 or mossberg tactical .22. If you are all alone you will only have the ammo you can carry and the .22 is good for hunting and defense and the 9mm is great for close defense. Plus you can carry lots of the ammo for less weight. Also I would pack a slingshot. They are cheap, very light and take up almost no room in your bag. They are great for small critter or bird hunting and the ammo supply is always underfoot. The problem with a over under is if you need to defend yourself you only have 2 rounds. Or if you are hunting you only have 1 round. Nope, I would definitely avoid an over under for survival situations. You can take down a deer with a well placed .22 shot but you can't shoot 2 or 3 rounds with an over under.


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## backlash

If I was going to carry an O/U it would be a Savage .22 mag over 20 ga.
A friend bought one in a pawn shop for around $350 if I remember. 
As mojo4 said an O/U would not be my first choice for a survival gun.


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## Ration-AL

backlash said:


> If I was going to carry an O/U it would be a Savage .22 mag over 20 ga.
> A friend bought one in a pawn shop for around $350 if I remember.
> As mojo4 said an O/U would not be my first choice for a survival gun.


first off ,thanks!
secondly...
well, crap, they don't make a over under that has a fairly decent round capacity? lol, one shot from a .22 before reload not very robust, well thanks for the advise guys, it just seemed like it would be a good match, shotgun for the bear/birds .22 for the squirrels and rabbits....like i said, i don't know, and am listening to your advise.

looks like it's back to the webs to have another look at things and see what i really want then, i will be deep back country so other people aren't an issue, and maybe i can just rely on the .357 for large predator protection? and carry a LR or shotty? i already have an remmy 870 super mag like this one
http://www.remington.com/products/f...l-870-express-super-mag-turkey-waterfowl.aspx

what do you guys think about that as opposed to a long rifle for a one gun carry scenario?


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## on_the_rox

I would second the savage model 24 in possibly 22 over 20 guage. It is a very versatile gun, even with one bullet at a time. I am also a fan of pump shotguns and think with multiple barrels (slug and birdshot) you would have a versatile firearm also, especially with a nice pistol for variety.


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## mosquitomountainman

If you're set on an over/under I'd also go with the Savage Mo. 24 in 22/20. Use 20 gauge slugs for big game. If you have lots of money for ammo a 22 magnum has a lot more power than a 22 longrifle. In that case go with the 22mag/20 gauge.

The main problem with a shotgun is the weight and bulk of the ammo. You can carry 500 rounds of 22 rimfire ammo in less space and it will weigh less than 25 rounds of shotgun ammo. 

Cheers

Steve


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## d_saum

I'd agree with the others who've said ditch the over/under.. If you really feel the need for a shotty out in the sticks in addition to a rifle.. I'd check out the "trifecta" from Rossi... I'm not sure how great of a company they are, but it looks like it might be what you're looking for.

If I'm bugging out solo, I'm going with my 9 and either my .223 or my .22..... but the latter decision will be made as the situation arises. If I'm bugging out long term and/or not coming home and have to hoof it, the.22 is the choice because of the amount of ammo I'll be able to carry.


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## Ration-AL

that trifecta looks pretty cool, 1 stock 3 barrels, so if i wanted to pack another barrel i could and have the option of using shotgun rounds...i wish it would tell me what the weight of each barrel was to see if it is feasible to carry both, i know i can pack up to 60lbs over very rough terrain for days if i need to but my typical ultra light trekking set up is only 35 lbs, i need to account for the extra weight, im trying for light and fast on this one.


it really does sound like i need to get out and pick up a .22 of some sort, i hear for our cases chrome lined barrels are the way to go as they can handle "bunker" ammo better??? also what's your guys take on the durability of center fire vs rim fire mechs and field cleaning/repair? again i'm an idiot when it comes to this stuff and am looking to get educated , there' s alot out there about this stuff and it's hard to get a handle on fact vs fallacy ....

you guys think between the 870 and a .22 i should be covered for food gathering? or do i need more? i also plan on picking up an assault rifle for grounds defense at one point, is there a sweet spot in the over lap between these guns? i'll mostly be shooting squirrels and small birds, i would like some meat left on them after they've been shot =-)

again i'm a frigging moron on this stuff,i'm like a bloody woman and cars, they know how to drive a car but doesn't really understand how the motor or transmission works, and that's were i'm at on these things..... :beercheer:


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## Fn/Form

If bears are likely, I would think about a high-power rifle and a .22LR takedown rifle or .22 pistol. A repeating firearm is preferable. Lever guns can be compact, of decent weight, offer sight upgrade options and reliable. The .30-30 is pretty common caliber. The heavier calibers (.35 Rem and up) buck brush better and still deliver a wallop. If you get a lever gun in the larger calibers, look at Garrett Cartridge for some really hard-hitting boolits. 

Bears mean you have medium size game around, at the least. You can take that with the rifle, too. The .22 can work for all the other game you want. I've yet to see a .22 barrel worn out from simple use. Tho they can be worn out from improper cleaning tools/methods. One of the biggest problems with firearms cleaning is using steel cleaning rods without a bore guide or at least care for the crown if you have to clean from the muzzle.

A lot of the cheaper .22LR bolt rifles have relatively flimsy magazines and crude extractors/actions along with so-so springs. At the higher end (such as CZ) you get a lot more quality. You can see it AND feel it. I've owned everything from a $99 Savage Mark IIF to a CZ 452 Lux. The Savage benefited greatly from a Rifle Basix sear (which cost almost as much as the rifle!). The Savage does well... and there's a whole forum devoted to Savage rifles. These guys are nuts... and they have some good recommendations. 

But I'll gladly pay 2x more for the CZ which has a good trigger out of the box. I do like the drop comb stocks featured on some of the CZ rifles. It greatly facilitates iron sight use. The straight stocks are nice for scope use. The CZ has almost a mini Mauser action. 

Barrel length in .22LR doesn't matter for velocity past 16". This has been proven time and again. The 16" barrel will also be up to a pound or more lighter than the longer barrel .22 rifles. If you don't have orangutan arms look at the CZ Scout. Around 5lbs weight. Whatever your choice, make sure the size is right for you to shoot offhand consistently.

You get what you pay for with the Rossi stuff. Same with Taurus. They're great for options in peaceable times. They're not what I'd choose if my life depended on them.

Your question on center fire vs. rimfire is hard to answer, it is a broad question and there are several caveats. Savage centerfire rifles are some of the most accurate out-of-the-box for a price that's hard to beat. However, the extractor is small, wears out in a thousand or so shots and seems to be made of a substandard material. AMHIK. I used to keep spare extractor/spring/balls on hand. For your situation, failure to eject a spent cartridge is a big problem if a bear is getting aggressive.

The modern Winchester 70 series has a famously reliable, large extractor based on the proven Mauser design. But not many people complain about Remington extractor... the 700 series is decent, even if they go bang on their own (tongue in cheek reference to a few manufacturing problems they've had). 

An "assault rifle" should be good for hunting. I wouldn't go hunting bears with a 5.56, but I guess I should test my real faith in Federal LE223T3 ammo, yes? hahahaha An Ak would probably be better. There is some overlap, and the military designs of good build quality are dependable. 

Alright, enough rambling for now.


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## BillM

I actually hunt small game and deer on a regular basis and have done so since I was twelve.

A .22 is a poor choice for someone who is depending on a meal.

If I wanted to keep it light and wanted to be able to kill game and protect myself, I would choose a 12 Ga. single or double barrel shotgun.

I would carry a variaty of ammo from 7.5 shot to buck shot. Then you can kill anything from a bird to a deer or a man.

12 ga ammo is plentifull and is reloadable by hand without expencive equipment.

All handguns are small. That is why soldiers carry rifles.

When I was a deputy sheriff and I thought there was going to potentually be a gun fight, I carried my shotgun!

As for the high powered rifle, are you planning to use it in an offencive manner ? If you are not planning to innitiate a fight and intend to only defend your self, you don't need that kind of range.

I own all kinds of firearms but if I had to choose only one, it would be my shotgun.


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## chris88idaho

BillM said:


> I actually hunt small game and deer on a regular basis and have done so since I was twelve.
> 
> A .22 is a poor choice for someone who is depending on a meal.
> 
> If I wanted to keep it light and wanted to be able to kill game and protect myself, I would choose a 12 Ga. single or double barrel shotgun.
> 
> I would carry a variaty of ammo from 7.5 shot to buck shot. Then you can kill anything from a bird to a deer or a man.
> 
> 12 ga ammo is plentifull and is reloadable by hand without expencive equipment.
> 
> All handguns are small. That is why soldiers carry rifles.
> 
> When I was a deputy sheriff and I thought there was going to potentually be a gun fight, I carried my shotgun!
> 
> As for the high powered rifle, are you planning to use it in an offencive manner ? If you are not planning to innitiate a fight and intend to only defend your self, you don't need that kind of range.
> 
> I own all kinds of firearms but if I had to choose only one, it would be my shotgun.


Just because you don't intend to offensively engage people doesn't meant you aren't in range of people who have those intentions. Several instances where police armed with shotguns and pistols went up against bad guys with A-47, they got out classed and were unable to maneuver do to overwhelming suppressive fire. just a thought.

Agree .22 is no good to try and fall an animal. Dog, cat, squirrel thats about it. Elk hunting this year I shot a grouse center mass w/a Ruger .22lr pistol and it flew way. )-:


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## d_saum

BillM said:


> I actually hunt small game and deer on a regular basis and have done so since I was twelve.
> 
> A .22 is a poor choice for someone who is depending on a meal.
> I respectfully disagree.. a .22 is perfect for taking down small and medium size game, and .. I know I know.. I'm going to get grief for this... but yes.. you can even take down a deer with good shot placement. Not ideal, but CAN be done.
> 
> If I wanted to keep it light and wanted to be able to kill game and protect myself, I would choose a 12 Ga. single or double barrel shotgun.
> A 12 Ga. single OR double barrel shotgun??? To protect yourself???? In close quarters like your house... maybe.. but out in the woods? Hope there aren't more than one or two of em comin atchya then.. and for God's sake, don't miss! Let's compare.. 2 shells in your shotgun, versus 14 in my marlin 60 .22..... OR.. 30 rounds of .223 in M4? Yeah.. good luck with your shotgun!
> 
> I would carry a variaty of ammo from 7.5 shot to buck shot. Then you can kill anything from a bird to a deer or a man.
> Again.. in your home, or at your bug out location, having a variety of ammo.. fine. But out in the woods? Hoofin it? Hope you're in shape because all those shells would get mighty heavy!
> 
> 12 ga ammo is plentifull and is reloadable by hand without expencive equipment.
> No argument here.. save for the weight issue
> 
> All handguns are small. That is why soldiers carry rifles.
> So why do officers carry handguns?
> 
> When I was a deputy sheriff and I thought there was going to potentually be a gun fight, I carried my shotgun!
> So.. just a question here.. my neighbor is a cop, and he has his sidearm, and a shotgun in his patrol car.. what else did you have?
> 
> As for the high powered rifle, are you planning to use it in an offencive manner ? If you are not planning to innitiate a fight and intend to only defend your self, you don't need that kind of range.
> Offense? Defense? What does it matter? I'd MUCH rather have the option to take out aggressors at a distance rather than HAVING to let them get with shotgun range..
> 
> I own all kinds of firearms but if I had to choose only one, it would be my shotgun.
> Good luck with that...


See comments above...


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## Magus

I thought we just had an article by a n00b wanting to use a stack barrel?

I'll tell you what I told him.It's retarded, but if you live someplace you just have to do it this way:

Mossberg is selling a NICE over and under already "Survival-ized" Start there.

Get a decent gun smith to make a couple of sub barrels for you.one in 308 or 30-06, one in 22 magnum.buy a stock saddle with sealable pouches and invest in a couple of shell shrinkers, one in 20 ga, one in 410.

But really, by the time you tweak this thing out enough to be practical, you could have a sweet AR-15.


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## ContinualHarvest

I'd say go out and try shooting with an over under. Think about the possible situations you may face. Take into consideration of what you'll use it for, how much ammo you will need, the speed of reloading and ease of cleaning it. 
Then decide whats right for you. Many valid points were brought up here but in the end it's what you want to spend your money on and what will work for you. 
Personally, I wouldn't choose something that I would need to reload after one or two shots. But again, the bullets will one day be all used up and we'll all be back to black powder and muzzleloading.


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## Magus

Actually that whole out of ammo thing might work for him,just have some black powder inserts made.


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## Ration-AL

Magus said:


> I thought we just had an article by a n00b wanting to use a stack barrel?
> 
> I'll tell you what I told him.It's retarded, but if you live someplace you just have to do it this way:
> 
> Mossberg is selling a NICE over and under already "Survival-ized" Start there.
> 
> Get a decent gun smith to make a couple of sub barrels for you.one in 308 or 30-06, one in 22 magnum.buy a stock saddle with sealable pouches and invest in a couple of shell shrinkers, one in 20 ga, one in 410.
> 
> But really, by the time you tweak this thing out enough to be practical, you could have a sweet AR-15.


funny you say this, after all of my reading and looking at what i got and how soon i feel we're all going to be needing this stuff, i decided to forego the over under (thanks guys!) and start thinking about an AK or AR, as like i said as it stands i got a remmy 870 super mag , some random .22 long barrel revolver ,a .357 taurus revolver of some kind, the latter 2 where handed down to me, i also have a few high powered air rifles....with what i have right now i'm starting to think security needs to take a bit of precedence at this point, as like mentioned in this thread, i can carry a variety of shells for the shot gun for hunting most game and the air rifles should suffice for the smaller critters in a pinch, pistols are good/will do for close quarters , but i really have nothing to reach out and touch someone with if needed....

i can only afford 1 gun at a time and don't want to be up a creek without a paddle, food is very important but so is defense, in what little arsenal i have where is the biggest gap and what needs to be filled first? like said i have no clue and fully expect you guys to smack me around a bit, imo if i don't get smacked around a bit im not earning my stripes and will probably continue thinking some of this stuff is a good idea 

...gotta love computer internet gun jockey mall ninjas..it makes it hard for a rookie to know what's up...thanks a ton for potentially saving mine and my wife's lives with good information.:congrat:


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## oldvet

IMHO there is no way you can go wrong with either an AK or an AR for your MBR (main battle rifle). You can carry ample ammo to get you out of most situations and the prices (if I am not mistaken) have come down some on both the AK and AR. If you intend to carry a sidearm, I would recommend a semi-automatic in either .40 or .45 cal. with at least 3 extra mags.

If you do decide to go with an AK or AR, don't settle for the cheapest one you can find, do a little research, spend a little more and get a good dependable weapon. 

Remember, no matter what you end up with try and find an experienced person that you trust to give you some proper field and range training.


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## Ration-AL

oldvet said:


> IMHO there is no way you can go wrong with either an AK or an AR for your MBR (main battle rifle). You can carry ample ammo to get you out of most situations and the prices (if I am not mistaken) have come down some on both the AK and AR. If you intend to carry a sidearm, I would recommend a semi-automatic in either .40 or .45 cal. with at least 3 extra mags.
> 
> If you do decide to go with an AK or AR, don't settle for the cheapest one you can find, do a little research, spend a little more and get a good dependable weapon.
> 
> Remember, no matter what you end up with try and find an experienced person that you trust to give you some proper field and range training.


thanks, i go to the range a few times a month and play with the rental guns they have there , so i can shoot and handle a fire arm proficiently and i practice stripping the guns i do have in the back yard on nice sunny days, what would i gain from field training that i'm missing out on right now? is that more of the tactical stuff?
also ak vs ar? which one deals with the wet and cold better? the hand me down guns are what they are, and i refuse to spend money on crap, guns have a resale value even if SHTF doesn't happen so im not worried to go out and spend 1k+(ea) on a few good rifles that will last ..any idea where to start and any general rules like stay away from the Chinese stuff?
again idiot looking to get schooled.(thanks for telling me what MBR means haha)


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## oldvet

Ration-AL said:


> thanks, i go to the range a few times a month and play with the rental guns they have there , so i can shoot and handle a fire arm proficiently and i practice stripping the guns i do have in the back yard on nice sunny days, what would i gain from field training that i'm missing out on right now? is that more of the tactical stuff?
> also ak vs ar? which one deals with the wet and cold better? the hand me down guns are what they are, and i refuse to spend money on crap, guns have a resale value even if SHTF doesn't happen so im not worried to go out and spend 1k+(ea) on a few good rifles that will last ..any idea where to start and any general rules like stay away from the Chinese stuff?
> again idiot looking to get schooled.(thanks for telling me what MBR means haha)


Yep, tactical training is what I am talking about getting if at all possible. I won't go into a long spiel about what all tactical training entails, because there is way to much to list and with an experienced instructor you will learn what you need to know to hopefully survive in a combat situation.

As proficient as you probably are at shooting at a stationary target that isn't shooting back, there is still a whole bunch more you need to learn.

Now as to the AK and the AR, which is better in a wet, cold, dusty, or muddy situation? Well (again IMHO) it all boils down to which rifle you are the most comfortable with and the most proficient with. As a rule the AK does seem to hold up better in adverse conditions but, then again with all of the improvements in the AR and if it is kept as clean as possible, you shouldn't have any problems with it either.

The M-16/AR-15 has come a very long way in the area of dependibility since they were first issued to us in Nam. That piece of crap M-16 I had, until I got my hands on my "Pig" (M-60) would jam at the hint of any dirt in the chamber or bbl. We didn't have the chromed lined bbls. or forward assist, but what we did have and had to use quite often was the bore cleaning rod to clear bbl. jams.

There has been a very long runing debate or arguement on the merits of the AK's and AR's, it all depends which one you like better and are comfortable with.

I will add that as a rule the standard AR is usually more accurate than the standard AK. The AK is a lot easier to field strip than the AR and actually has less internal moving parts to deal with, and then again the AR is not hard to field strip either once you get it down pat.

To answer your unasked question, I carry the M-4 version of the AR-15, but would not be the least bit reluctant to carry an Ak if I had to, so......your choice.


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## Ration-AL

oldvet said:


> To answer your unasked question, I carry the M-4 version of the AR-15, but would not be the least bit reluctant to carry an Ak if I had to, so......your choice.


hey thanks a ton, the gist of it is enough, i can now search other sites and find out what tac training entails and try and get my head around that until i can find someone local who is willing and able, i have a few buddies in law enforcement who can probably help , the problem is this bringing up to them and giving them a reason that's not going to make me sound like a nut, they know me as a good honest level headed person...i don't see how i can bring up tac training and still maintain my credibility, they all know me as an avid outdoors-men but not a hunter or gun enthusiast per-se..how the heck do i bring this up?

that said, i'll be going with the AK series, since this is my first rifle of such a type i think i should stick with something that needs less skill to clean,fix and operate in the field. i feel the accuracy difference between the two rifles won't matter much right off the bat, maybe it will more the better i get , but at this point i think learning with the less accurate one is probably good and somehow with some modifications i want to think the ak could be just as good the ar, but that's just me talking from my butt....

anyways, thanks alot guys for getting me sorted with what i really need and should be looking at and and now i can go to some of these gun forums and just ignore the rhetoric and see how to best spend my money on an AK.....

sorry one last question, what is the consensus on using the AK as a survival weapon? or are large caliber hunting rifles the choice, i understand there is no such thing as a one gun to rule them all sort of thing but i hardly ever see anyone say they are taking their AK over their deer killer hunting set-up...


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## d_saum

oldvet said:


> IMHO there is no way you can go wrong with either an AK or an AR for your MBR (main battle rifle). You can carry ample ammo to get you out of most situations


Wholeheartedly agree with this right here... Personally? I'm a fan of the AR platform over the AK.. mostly for accuracy reasons, and familiarity.. plus.. while I like the AK.. something about the blood in my veins leans me to the AR. Same reason I drive big American cars with V8's and such... But that's just me.

:usaflag:


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## Ration-AL

d_saum said:


> Wholeheartedly agree with this right here... Personally? I'm a fan of the AR platform over the AK.. mostly for accuracy reasons, and familiarity.. plus.. while I like the AK.. something about the blood in my veins leans me to the AR. Same reason I drive big American cars with V8's and such... But that's just me.
> 
> :usaflag:


so looking at it...is spending 1k on a AK to much should i spend $600 and drop the other $400 on a 10/22?

ir should i get a top of the line ak (Arsenal ) that has the milled receivers and is american made?

from the sounds of it, people are getting 3 MOA , which if i understand correctly is 3 inches off at 100 yards, which is more then enough if i'm aiming at center mass....again,i humbly thank you for your time and efforts in dealing with an idiot. =-)


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## Brumfield

d_saum said:


> See comments above...


Hey, d_saum, stop that, you answered all of these remarks with my planned remarks. Well said and good logic. When ammo will be hard to come by and every shot must count for game or self defense, good choice in 22 cal is the Volquartsen VX-5000 with the stainless fluted barrel. It's a lightweight competition gun and super accurate. 22 is fine for small game or even a deer can be brought down with a 22 long rifle round behind the ear. Or you could draw smiley faces on someones windshield from a quarter mile away with the Volquartsen (scoped of course) to convince them to stay away.

Another kidnapping here 5 days ago, a local restaurant owner. His father and brother flew in from California to look for him, all three men were killed last night. Zetas. Benelli Super Nova Tactical shooting 3-1/2" Magnums is my choice for home security. It also goes in my vehicles state side for long trips, but here in Mx it's a key to the Federal prison, considered a military weapon, not supposed to own one. The Beretta 380 auto-loader strapped to my ankle right now will only get me local jail time... well with a large bribe (Mordita) no jail time.


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## oldvet

Well there is always paintball or airsoft and teamed up with someone with tactical knowledge, you can learn quite alot. Hope this helps.


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## BillM

When I was a deputy sheriff and I thought there was going to potentually be a gun fight, I carried my shotgun!
So.. just a question here.. my neighbor is a cop, and he has his sidearm, and a shotgun in his patrol car.. what else did you have?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had a 7.5x39 rifle with a folding stock and a sling. My job required me to go looking for trouble. If I was in a rural setting in the woods, I would unlikely encounter an adversary at a distance of over 40 or 50 yards. A shotgun would be more than adiquate. If you loaded it with shotgun slugs a 100 yard range would work just fine. I am a prep in place guy and would just let a preditor come to me. I know a lot of guys that you would call Hillbilly's and you would not want to chase one into the woods if he was armed with a shotgun.


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## mojo4

Well AL I'm glad you scrapped the over under idea! My personal choice is the AR. I own an AR and a AK and while the AK is good, I love the AR!! With the improvements in ammo and manufacturing, the new AR types don't have the jam after 3 rounds the first M-16s did. I have fired and fired hundreds of rounds and never had 1 jam. Ever. The one thing to consider is weight. If you stay in place the extra AK weight won't matter but if you have to walk out you will definitely notice the AR difference. Also, the AK magazines sometimes are difficult to change out in a hurry but all the AR mags slip in and out like butter. The overall quality of an AR is easy to notice and everyone who shoots with me agrees, the AR is smooth as silk!! And 1 more point, the availabilty of parts for AR rifles is far larger and there are more manufacturers of quality parts locally than you will get for AK's.


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## Magus

Remember, if you get an AR, get the nifty 10.00$ mag well bolt on funnel.looks goofy but speeds reloads.

You need at least 1 tac rail for a light or fore grip, but no more!you'll be tempted to weigh it down with strange stuff you'll never use.


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## Ration-AL

so i went to the gun store yesterday to have a look and see what they had, the guy behind the counter suggested a $599 Romanian w/ wood stock AK-47 due to the availability of parts , which is nice because at that price it would leave me money for that new ruger 10/22 takedown that looks pretty cool, they had one of those in the shop as well, or i could go and get an AR for $1400 and spend a couple of hundred bucks more then what i wanted to.

what's the right path here? 2 guns or 1 AR that's very nice? 

any brand or country of origins suggestions for the AR's or AK's?

i'm really torn on this one, i'm a bushwacker, i will be wet,muddy,filthy "trying" my best to keep the barrel away from the crud, but i don't want to get in a spot where one of my stupid rookie mistakes will cost me my firearm in the field, i can only imagine how bad that would be! but....lighter weight, better range and accuracy is weighing heavily in the back of my mind, as the reason i'm not listening to the shotgun approach, which i admit would be sufficient in dense heavily wooded areas would be fine for most of where i am at and need to go, but there are a large number of grazing fields and farms that i may need to pass though and would like to be able to see across the field and take a shot if needed.


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## d_saum

Ration-AL said:


> so i went to the gun store yesterday to have a look and see what they had, the guy behind the counter suggested a $599 Romanian w/ wood stock AK-47 due to the availability of parts , which is nice because at that price it would leave me money for that new ruger 10/22 takedown that looks pretty cool, they had one of those in the shop as well, or i could go and get an AR for $1400 and spend a couple of hundred bucks more then what i wanted to.
> 
> what's the right path here? 2 guns or 1 AR that's very nice?
> 
> any brand or country of origins suggestions for the AR's or AK's?
> 
> i'm really torn on this one, i'm a bushwacker, i will be wet,muddy,filthy "trying" my best to keep the barrel away from the crud, but i don't want to get in a spot where one of my stupid rookie mistakes will cost me my firearm in the field, i can only imagine how bad that would be! but....lighter weight, better range and accuracy is weighing heavily in the back of my mind, as the reason i'm not listening to the shotgun approach, which i admit would be sufficient in dense heavily wooded areas would be fine for most of where i am at and need to go, but there are a large number of grazing fields and farms that i may need to pass though and would like to be able to see across the field and take a shot if needed.


I'd suggest you shop around, and read reviews (like ar15.com and such). Also, I'd watch some Youtube videos on any firearm you're thinking about getting. There's a great video out there showing m-16 (ar-15) vs AK-47 and both their strengths and weaknesses. From all that you've written here.. it appears that you "want" an AK, but an AR would suit you better. (I swear I'm not trying to sway you.. that's just how I'm reading into it).

Also, I wouldn't worry too much about a "rookie" mistake costing you your firearm. Both the AK and AR are pretty darn rugged.


----------



## PopPop

Both the AR and Ak have been used by stressed out rookies all over the world. My suggestions for a real world battery for most is Either an AK or AR, Glock 40 cal, Remington, Mossberg or Benelli 12 ga., Ruger 10/22 or Marlin 39 and good .308 sporting rifle. Add as much ammo and mags as is possible and store it correctly. Buy the best quality you can afford in each category and be mindful of how popular each model is, the more there are the better the parts availability will be. Stay away from the latest, Zombie Horde Anihilating gimmick. Cover the basics and cover them well, then move into the other if you want.


----------



## Magus

Just get a FAL and remove all doubt.


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## echo1432

Hey guys, just wanted to weigh in on this.

Ration-AL, I see a lot of people have preference for an AR. I support your decision for an AK, Arsenal is an excellent company. Yes they are spendy but they are one of the original factories for the USSR, they still make munitions for many countries or buyers with the money. Whatever brand you end up going with it's a solid design and it's simplicity will suit your knowledge and skill level. I would also suggest, as others have, to take a fighting rifle class. I can recommend tactical response (www.tacticalresponse.com), I took a M107 operators course with them and know that they can offer you excellent training with an AK.

Other thoughts;

Rifles

.22's
I own a 10/22 with one of those nice thumbhole stocks and match barrel kits they off at Sportsman's Warehouse (now Wholesale Sports) and enjoy it nicely. Additionally I have one of the Umarex (www.umarexusa.com) imported Carl Walther H&K Licensed MP5A5's. I am very pleased with this weapon, the first time I took it to the range we put 1000 rounds through it without one stoppage or malfunction. Its also worth noting that we were taking down pop up targets from a distance of 300 meters, but even I know after that distance the effectiveness of the round is almost nil. The internals where very carbon fouled when I broke it down for cleaning that night but I do feel that is an accomplishment for any weapon, I know my duty M4 would need to be re-oiled after a few hundred rounds in comparison.

.45-70
I am also the proud owner of a Marlin 1895SBL lever gun. Chamber in .45-70 it is a joy. I realize that .45-70 is an odd cartridge but if you stock up on enough brass, projectiles, primers and powder you shouldn't have any problem in defending your castle or looking for food. I'm sure there more than a few that would question how function this would be in a situation where you might be out gathering food or hunting game for a day or two at a time but I suppose it comes down to personal preference. If you can get close enough you can take anything down with that gun/round.

.270
The wife got a new 700 chambered in .270 for her birthday, since this is her weapon I won't be using it much. But when needed it can be used to hunt or provide a needed standoff.

Handguns

.40 S&W
The wife currently has an XDm chambered in .40 S&W. In the past I've stuck with .45 ACP but to keep things simple in the event SHTF I will be purchasing one of the new competition XDm's with the 5.25 barrel in .40.


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## headhunter

Going back to your origional idea (ultra light): 
1) an over/ under- think 20 ga vs. 12 for light weight. Think synthetic stock not as pretty but weatherproof. When you buy, get it coated -melanite to become almost rust proof

2) Savage 24, it is slow but came in all sorts of combos (if you can find one) ranging from .22RF and .410 to a .30-30 on top and a 20 ga. ( also a .357 mag. with a 20 ga.) on the bottom. The Finnish company Valemet made some 12 ga. .308 combos and I believe they could be had with an "06" too.

3) a double barrel shotgun and rifle combo known as a drilling, a three barrel firearm usually with a 16 ga. shotgun and various rifle calibers . Actually used by German pilots during WWII in Africa as a survival gun. Many came back into the US after WWII and are heavy and expensive. 

To begin , ask what is it for? If hunting, big game or small game- feathers or fur? If self defense ask for two legged varmits or four legged varmits. Is there something that will cover more than one base? How much weight do you want to deal with? What is the basic weight of the firearm plus the ammunition? How much noise is acceptable? Will my plan be to engage evil doers or to disengage as soon as possible? Will my problem be with people or feral animals?

Muliple problems at the same time means some type of repeater. How much power is needed? Are we serious about ultra light? (If it must be for a long period-perhaps one should look into the Ruger 10/.22 magnum- used since it is no longer made although magazines are readily available. It gives .22 long rifle muzzle energy at 100 yds and is nowhere as noisy as a centerfire cartridge. The rifles are heavier than a standard 10/22 It would probably serve you well to check out the kel-tec semiauto in 5.56 it uses the AR15 magazines and is super light.
Should you stay with your stack barrel idea , they can be fired surprisingly rapidly with practice and a wrist ammo holder.


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## Ration-AL

first off i want to thank everyone for chiming in, 

here's where i'm at, there's a huge gun show coming up in the next week or so and i'm heading out there to find some deals, i want to know what i want before i get there so i don't get drawn into all of the pretty shiny things on the shelves.

here's my thinking since i only have 2k or so to spend this time around i'm going for volume of arms over wow factor/quality/niceness 

so with that said,i've decided on a AK-47 either a vepr or a Izhmash, i have found both online for around $800 as I've decided i don't want to spend more then 1k on a AK. that leaves me with around 1k and some change...

next i'm picking up a glock .40 cal in either the compact or standard barrel length..i'm not sure which yet or why i should choose one over the other..help maybe?
i know i want the glock as i've seen both XD and Glock stripped and held both in my hand, the extra safety features on the XD makes the pistol more difficult for me to grab and grip quickly with the shark fin coming out the back of it and really i don't know.. just didn't feel as good to me...not knocking the XD as i'm no where near qualified enough to make a real judgment either way, just an observation from an idiot rookie who played with a few in the store..

the glock23 runs around $400-500 which would put at or around $1,500-1,600 in which case i would pick up a ruger 10/22 takedown for $400
and that puts me in at my 2k limit.....

so with 2k spent i get 3 guns that should fill some pretty big roles that i'm missing right now and in a couple of months i'll go out and pick up an AR type rifle and another pistol of some sort to arm the wife. 

also in the ak i'm going with the 7.62 and in the AR i'll be going with the 5.56, is this right or wrong thinking? again i cruise the web reading about this stuff then come here to ask the questions as you guys know what the intended use is. thanks a ton again guys and i'll post pics when i make the purchase around june 10th or when the gun show happens.

hows my logic on all of this and is it a good idea to hold out for the gun show? i'm really just hoping on better prices.....


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## headhunter

Check the Cabelas price , I was in picking up components yesterday and I believe they had a 10/ .22 take down for less than $325 on sale. I looked , held it ,and wondered if, since the receiver has the mount for optics, one would have to rezero it after each taje down/ assembly.


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## echo1432

Ration-AL said:


> first off i want to thank everyone for chiming in,
> 
> here's where i'm at, there's a huge gun show coming up in the next week or so and i'm heading out there to find some deals, i want to know what i want before i get there so i don't get drawn into all of the pretty shiny things on the shelves.
> 
> here's my thinking since i only have 2k or so to spend this time around i'm going for volume of arms over wow factor/quality/niceness
> 
> so with that said,i've decided on a AK-47 either a vepr or a Izhmash, i have found both online for around $800 as I've decided i don't want to spend more then 1k on a AK. that leaves me with around 1k and some change...
> 
> next i'm picking up a glock .40 cal in either the compact or standard barrel length..i'm not sure which yet or why i should choose one over the other..help maybe?
> i know i want the glock as i've seen both XD and Glock stripped and held both in my hand, the extra safety features on the XD makes the pistol more difficult for me to grab and grip quickly with the shark fin coming out the back of it and really i don't know.. just didn't feel as good to me...not knocking the XD as i'm no where near qualified enough to make a real judgment either way, just an observation from an idiot rookie who played with a few in the store..
> 
> the glock23 runs around $400-500 which would put at or around $1,500-1,600 in which case i would pick up a ruger 10/22 takedown for $400
> and that puts me in at my 2k limit.....
> 
> so with 2k spent i get 3 guns that should fill some pretty big roles that i'm missing right now and in a couple of months i'll go out and pick up an AR type rifle and another pistol of some sort to arm the wife.
> 
> also in the ak i'm going with the 7.62 and in the AR i'll be going with the 5.56, is this right or wrong thinking? again i cruise the web reading about this stuff then come here to ask the questions as you guys know what the intended use is. thanks a ton again guys and i'll post pics when i make the purchase around june 10th or when the gun show happens.
> 
> hows my logic on all of this and is it a good idea to hold out for the gun show? i'm really just hoping on better prices.....


Don't forget the classes, it's always nice to go though shooting drills with your nice new guns. AKs are nice the only drawback in my mind is the lack of a bolt hold open when your mag runs dry. Enjoy.


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## Ration-AL

headhunter said:


> Check the Cabelas price , I was in picking up components yesterday and I believe they had a 10/ .22 take down for less than $325 on sale. I looked , held it ,and wondered if, since the receiver has the mount for optics, one would have to rezero it after each taje down/ assembly.


huh...good question and that might be a bit of a pain, it would seem though that since it's a CAM type system it should pop more or less back into the same spot every-time, and would that be a deal breaker for you? i would be willing to go with another 10/22 if the price is right and there is a better one available, i just figured for $340 or so i was seeing for it would be tough to do better and still have something "cool" lol


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## Fn/Form

Just some Devil's Advocate...

If you both go with a good AR, then it's one manual of arms for both of you, common ammo, common mags, common spare parts, and likely double the accuracy potential of a 7.62 AK. Add compatibility with common military/police ammo .

Ammo selection is key. The Cadillac self-defense and all around 5.56 load is the Federal Tactical Bonded, catalog# LE223T3. It is not cheap, but it is arguably the best.

Next would be Mk318 Mod0 ammo. And there are plenty of deals with a cheaper practice ammo and specialty ammo.

Most AK ammo isn't terribly consistent in velocity, and accuracy isn't a strength of 7.62x39. But it's OK for carbine work.


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## bad_sock_monkey

I did not read the whole thread it usually turns into your standard suggestions fal, ak's, and ar's. To answer your question look at a savage 23c. I had one of these growing up it is a 20 gauge and 22. There is storage in the stock for ammo and it breaks down into 3 or 4 pieces. I had a lot of fun with it as a kid. I regret giving it back to my dad. The one thing I would do to upgrade it is figure out how to put a scope mount on the top for greater reaching out with a slug.


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## ashley8072

In a BO situation, I would take my marlin 22lr and my glock 27 40cal (which I keep on me at all times). 22 because it's light and quiet. Great for small game. I don't think I would trust it to take down larger animals at a distance. Bit of your on te move and hunting for food...just how much of a large animal are you prepared to eat or take with you? 4 people in a group is gonna be hard to creep up on a deer anyways.


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## mojo4

I agree with FN form, if you buy 2 rifles get the same ones. Its easier to only buy 1 type of mags, parts and ammo. And I highly recommend the .223 AR rifle. Its got amazing accuracy and is tough as nails. For a .22 rifle check out the mossberg tactical. It looks like an AR and is pretty accurate. I also picked one up because it operates pretty similar to an AR15 so it doubles as my rabbit gun and for training since .22 ammo is so cheap. Brand new it was 270 bucks so is still cheaper than a 10-22 and the training crosses over for your AR. And the glock pistol is a great choice. They are super tough and reliable and there are plenty of parts and mags available.


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## Ration-AL

mojo4 said:


> I agree with FN form, if you buy 2 rifles get the same ones. Its easier to only buy 1 type of mags, parts and ammo. And I highly recommend the .223 AR rifle. Its got amazing accuracy and is tough as nails. For a .22 rifle check out the mossberg tactical. It looks like an AR and is pretty accurate. I also picked one up because it operates pretty similar to an AR15 so it doubles as my rabbit gun and for training since .22 ammo is so cheap. Brand new it was 270 bucks so is still cheaper than a 10-22 and the training crosses over for your AR. And the glock pistol is a great choice. They are super tough and reliable and there are plenty of parts and mags available.


yeah i agree with that too, and is great logic, but i'm just building my stables, i feel if i go the AR route i will only be able to afford the AR,some ammo and have a bit of pocket change left over, as opposed to going the ak route to start with i can get 3 guns in my stable as opposed to 1 , like i said earlier in the post i want to get quality through out my whole line, $800 is a quality AK $1500 is a quality AR from my looking around and everyone i've seen always has a few AK's in the stables even if they are ar15 buff's, the AR's are just more expensive at this point and i need to build quantity before i start going for luxury, i'm sure i'll have 2 ak's and 2 ar's and probably a scar or a FAL sometime in the future but i have to start somewhere right now....



> so my real thinking is buy the AK,G23 .40, and a 10/22 or the like for 2k now ...then in a couple of months buy an ar-15 and another ak-47 for another 2k "1,500 for the ar-15 and $500-600 for a cheaper AK" , then finally pick up another ar-15 and a p226 or whatever floats my boat at the time.


or is the AR so good i should just buy the AR now and forget everything else? i may be able to squeeze a bit more and get the glock and the AR but then i have a gap with no small game rifle laying about...


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## mojo4

Well I had a buddy of mine custom build my ar and it was 800 bucks. I paid another 400 for an eotech holographic sight (totally worth it BTW!!) So do a google search for FFL dealers in your area. You can find a dealer who doesn't have a storefront shop put together a killer ar for you much cheaper than the guy who has shop overhead and employees to pay. A good factory redone glock at around 350, AR at 800 to 1000 and a .22 for under 300 and you can have all 3 under 2K. Remember, if you are going to put your life on the line I would definitely choose quality over quantity.


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## Fn/Form

Ration-AL said:


> ...$1500 is a quality AR from my looking around...


R-AL, only you can decide what's best for you. Both will serve you well. I'll add some more info and personal experience. Hopefully it will help flesh out some other aspects to consider.

I've owned top quality AKs and ARs. I had two 7.62 AKs built by Arizona Response Systems, beautiful and perfect function, excellent triggers. I did not like the AK sights or accuracy when both compared to an AR. I did not like the recoil and slower sight picture return. I did not like the lack of quality stock options. I spent the money on an VLTOR AR stock adapter, but I still didn't care for the poor cheek weld. I didn't care for the heavy metal mags, but maybe they have quality polymer 7.62 mags out now. Since a lot of the AK weight is further from the shoulder it was much more fatiguing for shooters that weren't very strong. Bench only gun, for them. That was one of the deciding factors. I know of MAYBE one AK optic option that allows co-witness of iron sights. The ergonomics are better on the AR.

Everyone in our group needs to be able to use the rifle effectively for a reasonable amount of time...

A 5.45 AK would help the recoil and magazine weight issues. 5.45 ammo has also been much more affordable.

You can do a top notch AR under $1k. Look at Bravo Company. Search around for reviews on their kit. I believe you will find it's top quality. You can pay $1500 for a basic Noveske, arguably the best quality out there. Last time I looked, S&W had a $800+ carbine that had very good components and I would not mind carrying on duty.

AR options:

Lightweight barrel; is much easier for less-than-strong people to mount and carry. It can provide faster target-to-target transition if all else is equal (such as training).

14.5" barrel; As long as you keep within the carbine concept and ability, the 14.5" barrel length is a noticeable improvement moving indoors and inside vehicles. Minimum legal rifle barrel length is 16", so Bravo permanently attaches (by pinning and welding it) a flash hider to bring it to 16.1" total length. A 16" barrel is fine, too, if that's all you can find available. My Bravo Company 14.5" with rail has no problem with accuracy out to 480yds. However, terminal ballistics may not be so great unless I'm shooting heavy bullets.

Carbine length gas system; I DO prefer the carbine length gas system. It is more reliable with ammo that's less than true 5.56 power and in cold weather as well. I'm not sure where you live, but you need to find what it takes to run your new rifles in freezing temps. Too much lube can compromise function.

Barrel twist rate; I run a 1/7 barrel and it runs 55gr to 77gr just fine. However, a 1/8 would be nicer combo for 55gr.

See if you can get some trigger time on AK and AR. That might help a lot.

I cannot stress enough the importance of ammo selection in 5.56. You really don't have a huge selection of top self-defense loads. Federal LE223T3, Speer Gold Dot 64gr bonded (#24448), Mk318 and maybe a few others. Know what they're good for, know what's the "safest" to use in your own home.


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## Ration-AL

well the gun show is coming up in the following week, so i'm taking your advice and looking around for a FFL guy and a couple of $800 AR's and will keep an eye out for a couple at the show, if i can't find what i want then i'll just go with the AK and save up for the AR's later, in the end i plan on having at least 2 ak's and 2 ar's with maybe something exotic like a FAL or SCAR for fun...my issue is though i want everything i get to be milled, i just don't trust stamping machines just due to the tolerance variances in the process , i'm sure they are fine as they have made millions of them that work just fine, but i want something great .... i'm not looking to become an all out "GUN GUY" i'm really just looking to have a small but highly functional/high quality collection.

if you have any leads for a milled upper AR in the $800 range let me know, i've been looking at spikes tactical as word has been they are the best of that price range, i found one of those for $850, much better then the colt and SW (that's what i hear)....another problem i'm having is the sheer volume of AR makers, i'm getting to the point where i only want to buy one of the big names just because there's so many small companies and so many opinions on each one it makes it very hard to get a bead on who's legit and whose just being a fan boy....

either way, you guys are awesome and i appreciate the help saving me money and time on this learning curve, i really mean it.:2thumb:

here's the list so far

glock compact .40 cal
ruger 10/22 take down (played with one again this weekend and i'm in love)
2x ak's
2x ar15's

for future purchase or consideration
sig suaer p226
FAL or SCAR...i'm liking the SCAR at this point, based on this
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=62889


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## Fn/Form

Spike's makes good stuff, I'd trust it as much as the Colt's consumer series. However, Spike's cannot match Colt's LE/mil spec products. With those products Colt's has invested a lot of money in machines, metrics and parts sourcing that 90% of the industry can't match. The new SP6920 is a copycat of their LE6920, but not held to the same standards. 

I'm a Colt's LE/mil armorer, and I have a coupon for two Colt's firearms at dealer cost. But I still put my money into Bravo Company product. They make serious stuff, not toys. My current go-to AR is a Bravo upper on an LMT lower.

As for AKs... milled is great quality, but it's been shown to be *less* reliable in some cases. It can fatigue/crack much sooner than the quality stamped variants. Milled is usually heavier, too. I'm sure you can Google evidence on milled vs. stamped lifespan. 

ARs come in forged, cast and billet. Billet looks cool and adds more meat to the rifle. But in a carbine... why add weight? And I don't think you'll see any real strength benefit over forged. Billet works fine for the precision crowd (tighter fit, usually better barrel/receiver alignment out of the box), but again, benefits are dubious for real world carbine use.

Anyway, I hope you can find something in stock somewhere or at the gun show. Gun show prices around here are on the high end. Demand is way up. My brother ordered two Bravo uppers... and their lowers were on backorder. He went with another lower... but still has to wait until July for his lower to come in.


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## mojo4

Well rational, glad to see we got to you! Id hate to see you running around the apocalypse with a 2 shot gun like the scrawney kid from zombieland!! So, what did ya get if you don't mind sharin. Feel free to tell me to mind my own business if needed!


----------



## Padre

Ration-AL said:


> What's the best over under for survival? i'm putting together an ultralight one man BOB plan and want to only carry an over/under and a revolver the goal here is light and long distances in a single day in rough terrain, i need something that will deal well with the wet and is easy to strip and clean in the field, preferably chrome lined barrel if they make them.


I love my revolver, but if it has gotten so bad that you have to bug out AND are openly carrying a long rifle, I would move over to a hi-cap auto, and keep the wheel gun as backup. IMHO.

But as to your over under idea. I too have been torn over this question. Do you bring your AR or you shotty? I think I would bring both, but if I had to choose one....:gaah:

Perhaps, if you have the money, you might think about this:

Many SWAT teams are using ARs with a shotty mounted on the rail (like a grenade launcher) for use opening doors. It might be class III because of the length the shotgun would need to be, but its doable and gives you a hi-capacity crome lined rifle barrel to boot...


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## Ration-AL

mojo4 said:


> Well rational, glad to see we got to you! Id hate to see you running around the apocalypse with a 2 shot gun like the scrawney kid from zombieland!! So, what did ya get if you don't mind sharin. Feel free to tell me to mind my own business if needed!


really really big gun show coming up on june 7th, i'm going bargin hunting there and if nothing makes me happy i'll be ordering on line and having it shipped to a FFL near me, still trying to find a local guy who can put together a bad a'ss AR for around 1200.

i've been back into a few shops since my last post and i'm 100% sure on the glock gen4 compact in the .40...compact is the 27 right? still don't know the length designation for the glocks.

also 100% sure on the ruger 10/22 take down, played with a few of those in the shops and i really like the cam mech. it's really sweet and you can pop the gun together and fire in seconds....

i'm at a total loss on the AR's though, so many manufactures and so many options , i played with a colt and a SW in a shop and neither really gave me warm fuzzies, i liked the one with the ambi clip release better then the other, i think it was the colt i preferred of the two, but neither looked as nice or well built as some of the other and imo less known manufactures say like black rain or spikes tactical and such , but then again i know 2 things about AR's and thats JACK and S***, i just think for 1200 i can do better then a standard colt , i've seen them online for $800-1k...

so i guess long story short i have a shop that can do the glock, the ruger and the colt ar for $2200 OTD good deal or should i wait for the gun show?


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## Ration-AL

Padre said:


> I love my revolver, but if it has gotten so bad that you have to bug out AND are openly carrying a long rifle, I would move over to a hi-cap auto, and keep the wheel gun as backup. IMHO.
> 
> But as to your over under idea. I too have been torn over this question. Do you bring your AR or you shotty? I think I would bring both, but if I had to choose one....:gaah:
> 
> Perhaps, if you have the money, you might think about this:
> 
> Many SWAT teams are using ARs with a shotty mounted on the rail (like a grenade launcher) for use opening doors. It might be class III because of the length the shotgun would need to be, but its doable and gives you a hi-capacity crome lined rifle barrel to boot...


me and a buddy were talking about this over the weekend, why the hell can't they do a 5/.22 and a 3 shot, shot gun over under?

i was liking the revolver just for the dual ammo and reliability , .38 and .357,
but agree i should be looking at a hi-cap so am going with a glock , like i said before i'm not a gun guy per se , i've always enjoyed shooting but never felt the need to own a gun before the last couple of years and all of the craziness that's been going on in the world, so with that said, i'm just now finding out with your help what i really need and want, i was just guessing up until this point, now i'm ready to spend and looking for feed back on my stupidity lol :wave:


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## vellomike

I was a pro ak lover for its reliability and don't get me wrong it is a great weapon if you are in a hostel environment but the accuracy of the ar is no joke and I hate to inform all of you but the days of relaying on the skills of a master gunsmith are over with the modern computerized milling machines anything can be reproduced perfectly just go to a busily gun range and find that a stamped $700 at shoot just as good as a $3000 one the bottom line is the shooter and his state of mind


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## Padre

Ration-AL said:


> i was liking the revolver just for the dual ammo and reliability , .38 and .357, but agree i should be looking at a hi-cap so am going with a glock ,


I love my S&W 60 and I love my Glock 22, its a fun gun. If money is an issue think about buying a lonewolf 40 to 9 conversion barrel. It pops in easy and cuts the cost of ammo in half.


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## mojo4

Well I checked and my palmetto upper is around 450. Another 300 for a lower and since your savin so much toss in an eotech for 400 and your right around 1200 for one pimpslayin' setup! It can be done buddy! Just find a FFL guy by your house to mail the lower to and your ready to rumble. And since in the AR business all the uppers and lowers attach with 2 pins they are all pretty much interchangeable. I haven't noticed a massive quality difference in the lowers so just pick up whatever is on sale. The upper and whatever sights you want can be shipped straight to your house with no middlemen.


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## VUnder

My first gun to hunt with was a Stevens over/under .22 & .410 with a fiberglass stock. It had belonged to my great grand dad, and he left it to my dad. It was never mine. But, it had rifle sights on the barrel, and it would put those .410 slugs where you wanted. The sights didn't work for both barrels, so I ended up using the .22 sighted in, and just used squirrel shot the rest of the time.

Remember, people, that when this all goes down, it will be lawless. Instead of buying that expensive pistol, buy a cheap single barrel shotgun and make that short as a pistol. That can be for the close range bears, snakes, and such, I used to have a few short ones that I kept on the tractor for water mocassins when bush hogging thickets, and they will kill a fairly good distance. You can easily get close enough to a squirrel or rabbit to kill with a short barrel. Now if the barrel is just a few inches, no, but I wouldn't want to be shot anywhere less that fifty feet with it. Also, you still have the slug option for point and shoot close range. 

I had often thought that the .22 rifle and a .44 revolver would be the ticket. I worked some law enforcement and was the only one there that qualified with a revolver. This was during several times of qualifying. Everybody else had autos, everybody else was jammed or hung up at some point. I have never had a revolver hang up. I would rather have six shots I can absolutely depend on.


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## vellomike

I agree I have a Taurus judge next to my bed best of both worlds


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## Ration-AL

well, i got sick of just shopping around so i went out an picked up a .22lr before they all sold out...i'll sort out the pistol and BR a bit later.

i'm weary of picture posting but this is the same set up as i currently have (puled the red dot scope off an air gun i had laying around),

on the way:
a nikon scope i got for $100 along with an upgraded bolt release,extractor,buffer and a muzzle break, i'm heading out this weekend to sight it in and get some practice! really excited!


























my next thing is going to be a scout rail and possibly a folding stock that is a bit different from this.


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## TheLazyL

Ruger...good choice. I like the model you choose, easy to break down and "hide" in a back pack if needed.

The extra long magazine may make it a bit hard to shoot from a prone position.

My suggestions would be;

22 rifle: Henry AR7
Shotgun: Mossberg Model 930 SPX Semi-Auto
Rifle: Ruger SR-556


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## Ration-AL

TheLazyL said:


> Ruger...good choice. I like the model you choose, easy to break down and "hide" in a back pack if needed.
> 
> The extra long magazine may make it a bit hard to shoot from a prone position.
> 
> My suggestions would be;
> 
> 22 rifle: Henry AR7
> Shotgun: Mossberg Model 930 SPX Semi-Auto
> Rifle: Ruger SR-556


yeah, checked out the Henry and the papoose before i jumped on my selection , while the ar-7 was cool because it all broke down and stored in the stock just didn't feel rugged enough and same with the papoose because it didn't have a fore-end to support the barrel, but to be honest i can't really debate guns because i don't know enough about them , i just went out and picked one that felt right and looked good to me, lol....

still looking in to a BR and a pistol of some sort, i think like others have suggested i'm going to double up on whatever i get so i can have a stockpile of parts to interchange with.....

on thing that's kicking my butt right now though is trying to figure out should i go with a gas system or a DI system, and i don't even know what DI means....i've gathered that the gas pitons stay cleaner but might be a bit less reliable because of more parts?....?...?


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## Fn/Form

The gas piston ARs are reliable and not nearly as dirty to clean as Direct Impingement (DI) ARs. Piston systems can be more forgiving of lower powered ammo or what would cause extreme fouling with DI guns. They are better suited to frequent suppressor use. Direct Impingement is the original gas system used by ARs and it's what 99% of ARs run.

A serious shooter (and especially .mil or LE) is going to break the firearm down and inspect it after any use anyway, no matter if it's impingement or piston.

If you buy a quality rifle (proper gas port size, proper chamber, staked gas key) and run good ammo (full power, brass cased, quality) and magazines then DI reliability is not an issue. Compromise any of those factors and you've got a plinking or play gun, not a serious use firearm.

IMO, it really boils down to how much you want to spend. Less cleaning effort is nice, but is it worth 50% more cost? Is parts commonality with the majority of ARs a goal?

DI guns, properly built, are reliable and more affordable. I don't have a need for a piston in my serious use intent.


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## Magus

Ration-AL said:


> well, i got sick of just shopping around so i went out an picked up a .22lr before they all sold out...i'll sort out the pistol and BR a bit later.
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> i'm weary of picture posting but this is the same set up as i currently have (puled the red dot scope off an air gun i had laying around),
> 
> on the way:
> a nikon scope i got for $100 along with an upgraded bolt release,extractor,buffer and a muzzle break, i'm heading out this weekend to sight it in and get some practice! really excited!
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OMG a Butler creek stock! are they back in business?


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## headhunter

Just another thought. If you purchase 2 ARs with the idea of being able to use the parts of one to fix the other, 2-1 =1. You are still down one firearm. I understand if one is your favorite and you use scavenged parts and you keep your favorite.

I"m probably not saying it right. I could go along with the idea of firearms the same type firing like cartridges. but wouldn't it make more sense to have two arms of the same type but of differing calibers?
If one broke you could shoot the ammo up for the functioning one and then switch parts and shoot up the ammo for the other. In addition you would stand a better chance of being able to find (by trade or scavenging) ammo to keep shooting by having the option of two calibers.

The same caliber would make more sense it you were wilderness headed with no chance of trading or scavenging.


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## VUnder

Plus, an over/under is heavy. My first gun was an over/under, and I got tired of toting that thing. I gave it away to another younger one in the family, to make him strong like me, from toting that thing. Maybe tote you a 22, and saw a 12ga single barrel down to pistol size and make you a genuine Mad Max holster to handle all the close up boom booms. From a distance, the .22 will make them duck just as low as a shotgun will, plus, you have more reach.


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## mojo4

Well hunter when rifles are the same type but different calibers usually all the parts are different and not interchangeable. You would still be down 1 rifle in the end though but now you have a bunch of ammo you can't use. Just my opinion but you just can't beat an AR. Crazy accurate and extremely reliable and well priced.


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## vellomike

headhunter said:


> Just another thought. If you purchase 2 ARs with the idea of being able to use the parts of one to fix the other, 2-1 =1. You are still down one firearm. I understand if one is your favorite and you use scavenged parts and you keep your favorite.
> 
> I"m probably not saying it right. I could go along with the idea of firearms the same type firing like cartridges. but wouldn't it make more sense to have two arms of the same type but of differing calibers?
> If one broke you could shoot the ammo up for the functioning one and then switch parts and shoot up the ammo for the other. In addition you would stand a better chance of being able to find (by trade or scavenging) ammo to keep shooting by having the option of two calibers.
> 
> The same caliber would make more sense it you were wilderness headed with no chance of trading or scavenging.


I have an adaptor for my AR so it shoots .22 lr that could easily fit in a small bag with maybe 200 rounds and it only cost $140 .that and our military uses 5.56 makes the Ar the best choice


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## vellomike

Ration-AL said:


> What's the best over under for survival? i'm putting together an ultralight one man BOB plan and want to only carry an over/under and a revolver the goal here is light and long distances in a single day in rough terrain, i need something that will deal well with the wet and is easy to strip and clean in the field, preferably chrome lined barrel if they make them.
> 
> i do know i want a over under though....
> 
> i am a novice when it come to the tech side of guns so i don't have a clue where to start, basically i have a room with all of my stuff laid out and various size bags and a packing plan for each one depending on the situation , i already have a few fire arms for a bug in type case and traveling as a pack/herd/group in which different people can carry different firearms, but i'm looking to get an over/under for the very very worst case scenario and end up being a lone wolf (yes i know how things turn out for the lone wolf, but i figure if it gets to that ,I'm still going to try and make it) so long story short where do i put my money?


Seriously the lightest 12g is H&R pardoner look up on you tube The Pathfinder School and get adapters to shoot any caliber you want I suggest the 8" 9mm barrel you put in the 12g ,and carry a 9mm he has good videos on the subject


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## headhunter

mojo4 said:


> Well hunter when rifles are the same type but different calibers usually all the parts are different and not interchangeable. You would still be down 1 rifle in the end though but now you have a bunch of ammo you can't use. Just my opinion but you just can't beat an AR. Crazy accurate and extremely reliable and well priced.


If you had two N frame Smiths, perhaps a 27 and a a 29 , of the same vintage the parts of the "guts" would interchange. If some internal part went went "south" in the 29, you could shoot up your .357 ammo and then scavenge the internals from the 27 to get the 29 up and running.
If you had two model 700s of the same vintage, one in .30-06 and one in .270, the parts of the trigger and bolt (e.g.. the firing pin or firing pin spring) would interchange.
Sorry for not making myself clearer.


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