# 'they' can't control the self-sufficiency...tax gardens??



## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

http://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/01.12/surge.html

The Storm Surge of Decentralization

Although not yet a reality, direct taxation of home-produced food has been floated. Unfortunately this idea is all too plausible. States are indeed desperate for revenue, and the connections politicians have with large corporations gives them a direct incentive to protect the profit margins of those who feather their nests:

~~~I heard a state legislator today on the radio talking about taxing home gardens that grow vegetables and other produce. This state is in serious economic trouble and they are looking at every possible source of revenue. The legislator stated that many home gardeners sell their produce at flea markets and do not pay any sales tax, that the produce grown even if not sold amounts to income and should be taxed.~~~


----------



## Jason (Jul 25, 2009)

How the hell does home grown produce qualify as income? And how would they enforce it? I can't see this happening... too many people could just plant the gardens out of sight.


----------



## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

Sorry JayJay, I merged these two threads, put them in the wrong order and don't know how to change it.   

If it's possible, could one of the admins put post #3 in the #1 spot.


----------



## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

I have been telling my daughters that home gardens are at a minimum, going be controlled in some way in the near future. My reasoning for this is that the government is in a full blown effort to totally control the food supply, control it and you control the population. They are going to make sure that they can screw everyone equally and by controlling and withholding food they can control and punish non conformists and those of us who are independent minded and refuse to totally depend on them for all needs. 

Most small family farms have disappeared, much of the seed supply is controlled by Monsanto and other agribusinesses, legislation has been passed to control the water which will make irrigation difficult or impossible and "food hoarders" are being identified as terrorists.

Home canning is being is being attacked as potentially harmful and I am not sure but I think that it is now illegal to sell or trade home canned foods. 

This has hit a raw nerve with me, I remember as a kid, you could go to the local public market and pass stall after stall of produce grown locally, melons, peas, tomatoes, corn, okra and just about everything else you could ever want in your diet. Now you go to the local mega mart and buy foods that have been GMOd and shipped in from other continents and are full of potentially lethal chemicals and microbes and the only choice you have is to consume them and support nations and economies that would love nothing more than to see the U.S. crumble in collapse.

If the Feds can't eliminate home food production they are at least going to make so expensive that it will be out of the reach of those who are currently engaged in it.


----------



## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

*That is a great idea!*

I think that is a great idea! If they are going to tax me for growing vegetables and herbs I can make it into a home based business!

First, I will need to hire an accountant to keep track of everything. That will be me. I will pay all hired labor a percentage of the produce produced or let them take their pay in produce. They will have to claim this as income so I'll price the goods competitive enough to attract good workers. Say&#8230; $.01 for a green pepper, $.01 for tomatoes&#8230; That or I could not be a very good farmer and have poor harvests every year so no one make anything.

Next I need to lease a building to hold supplies in, I'll rent such a building from myself for a cut of the production. A home based office ya know has tax benefits.

Land! Heck, I'll need to rent land from myself to grow things on, another percent of the production gone.

LABOR! Sheesh, let's see&#8230; I'll need a manual laborer, I'll hire myself to do that. A manager for that laborer, I bet I could do that job. A consultant to come in and tell the manager what to have the laborer do, I have experience here so I'll hire myself. I will also need a specialized mechanic to drop around to fix things every so often. I bet I could pass that interview and get the position.

I will need to rent a vehicle to go to the store to pick up supplies, I know just where I can rent one. And of course, a tax exempt number because I am now a business. Shoot, I'll need to hire an experienced driver also to operate the vehicle and I have experience driving to the store so I'll hire myself.

For harvesting, what will I need&#8230; I'll need to rent tools to harvest and space somewhere to store the goods until I can consume them. I bet I can rent myself space in the frig. I'll also need to hire a specialized picker who knows when things are ripe and ready, the laborer can't do that specialized job.

I bet with a well thought out business plan you could lose enough money to have them owe YOU taxes back even after all the bills are paid. Heck, with the profits split between all those folks none of the 'employees' will make enough to even claim taxes! My business could survive for years losing 'money' big time and possibly be qualified for a farm subsidy!


----------



## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

So many thoughts cross my mind about this.

I have a friend that is a great gardener. He participates in the local Master Gardener program. He grows a lot of produce, and he sells a lot of it to local restaurants. Meals made with locally grown produce has caught on in a big way around here, and he does quite well with what he sells.

The same can be said for local and regional farmer's markets. They have sprouted like the produce they sell. Every community, however small, now seems to have a farmer's market around here where I live. There still exists a lot of family farms, most having held on by their finger nails for years, and the farmer working a non-farm main job to keep afloat. Now with the "buy local" movement gaining steam it looks as if they may be able to farm full-time and earn a decent living. That is if our "central government" leaves them alone, which doesn't seem to be the case. 

A friend has warned me about establishing any relationship with the local ag agent(s). She said that she was once ignorant enough to seek advice from our agricultural dept. on several issues. They came out to her place and offered all sorts of improvements "at no charge" regarding timber planting and land management. She discovered that once you agree to any "partnership" with this government agency, even though it is state run, they come onto your property anytime they like to snoop (as she called it) around. She finally was able to end the relationship... she thinks.

I grow a garden, too. Not nearly as sophisticated as my friend, however. Still, it augments our food here at home. I don't grow enough to totally be independent.

My father said years ago that he thought government would one day tax a man's vegetable garden and make him buy individual tags for any animals. I think he was on to something.

I once read an article by a man who I think hit the nail on the head, but I don't think a lot of people agreed with him at the time. This man foresaw a time like we are entering when a central authority would clamp down on us and make our existence a living hell through taxation, regulation, and strict control of almost every aspect of our lives. Our freedom would be gone, and our existence would be at the generosity of this central authority and its many buearocrats, many of which would have to be local in order to perfect the control they desired. His solution? Begin targeting those local buearocrats, informants, block captains... whoever it was locally that was representing that central authority and causing so much grief. Yes, I said "targeting". The word means what it means. He was convinced that it wouldn't take but a few being targeted to throw a wrench into the machinery. I think he was right then, and even more right as we slid into this morass of enslavement.


----------



## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

Forty-five states and the District of Columbia levy general sales taxes. As you can see from the picture on the bottom of this post, most of those states have eliminated, reduced, or offset the tax as applied to food for home preparation/consumption. The relief strategies include full or partial exemptions from the sales tax for food purchased for home consumption and credits or rebates to offset the food tax.

Of the states with sales taxes:
Thirty-one states and the District of Columbia exempt most food purchased for home preparation/consumption from the state sales tax. South Carolina is the state that most recently eliminated its sales tax on food (November 1, 2007).
Seven states tax groceries at lower rates than other goods; they are Arkansas, Illinois, Missouri, Tennessee, Utah, Virginia, and West Virginia.

Food sales tax rates in these states are as follows: 
Arkansas - 2 percent
Illinois - 1 percent
Missouri - 1.225 percent
Tennessee - 5.5 percent
Utah - 3 percent
Virginia - 2.5 percent
West Virginia - 3 percent

Five states - Hawaii, Idaho, Kansas, Oklahoma, and South Dakota- tax groceries fully but offer credits or rebates offsetting some of the taxes paid on food by some portions of the population. These credits or rebates usually are set at a flat amount per family member. The amounts and eligibility rules vary, but may be too narrow and/or insufficient to give eligible households full relief from sales taxes paid on food purchases.

Two states continue to apply their sales tax fully to food purchased for home consumption without providing any offsetting relief for low- and moderate-income families. They are Alabama and Mississippi. 

Local governments, which in many states levy their own sales taxes, usually exempt food if food is fully exempt at the state level. Major exceptions include localities in Arizona, Colorado, Georgia, Louisiana, North Carolina, and South Carolina. Grocery food purchases in those states are fully or partially exempt at the state level, but typically taxed at the local level.


----------



## Jimmy24 (Apr 20, 2011)

And just think....we're the ones who elect this people, then do nothing about it....

Jimmy


----------



## jungatheart (Feb 2, 2010)

If I take it a little further, why wouldn't they tax me for making my own bread? A loaf is worth much more than the materials. 

Raised a calf that cost you $300 and when you butcher it, it's now worth $2000. Why not tax the difference. It's income isn't it?

I don't know why they don't just cut to the chase and take everything we have and give us what they feel like giving. And then they can really put the squeeze on us. A Psychopath's dream.


----------



## PrepN4Good (Dec 23, 2011)

Jason said:


> How the hell does home grown produce qualify as income? And how would they enforce it? I can't see this happening... too many people could just plant the gardens out of sight.


"They" will find you somehow...like maybe getting customer lists from seed companies...? (Time to start saving your heirloom seeds now!) :sssh:


----------



## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

PrepN4Good said:


> "They" will find you somehow...like maybe getting customer lists from seed companies...? (Time to start saving your heirloom seeds now!) :sssh:


National Guard helicopters. They do not have to be flying low to spot a garden or even single plants growing. They take video and analyse it later, frame by frame if need be then can send out local law enforcement to verify and the local law does not need a warrant because reasonable suspicion exists. They then can file for an official warrant and come back.


----------



## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

We could be POISIONING ourselves with our poor, unsanitary farming practices. How do you really know those home grown peas are safe to eat??? It is better to have Big Brother (or Big Sister) step in and make sure you are doing it right, and of course pay them to help. Besides, perhaps there are some taxes we owe them for growing our own food and we wouldn't want to be screwing the government out of their rightfully owed monies!!!

The USDA Agricultural Survey: Voluntary NOT Mandatory | Farm Wars

The USDA is busy sending out its Agricultural Survey attempting to elicit from unwary property owners, information regarding any agricultural production or livestock or poultry (this can be virtually ANY crop, animal or bird) that you may own and goes on to ask how much monetary value is placed on produce or the sale of animal/poultry products. The [survey] also mentions that anyone who produces and sells more than $1,000 per year is asked to voluntarily supply this information to the government. $1,000 a year is such a paltry amount and is significant in the fact that this amount is so low as to encompass virtually anything you might wish to grow and produce even for your own use. It would be virtually impossible for the federal government to confiscate food sources in the event they decide they must, unless they know first hand where that source is located and how much of it is there.

<More at site>

Senate Bill S 510 Food Safety Modernization Act vote imminent: Would outlaw gardening and saving seeds

This tyrannical law puts all food production (yes, even food produced in your own garden) under the authority of the Department of Homeland Security. Yep -- the very same people running the TSA and its naked body scanner / passenger groping programs.

<More at site>

poorrichard's blog: Losing your right to grow, harvest and consume your own food

Name one time that USDA/FDA swat teams showed up with the local sheriff, dressed in star wars riot gear, weapons drawn, after some big Ag producer sent out millions of pounds of contaminated hamburger or even peanut butter. But try selling fresh raw milk through your local co-op and see who comes calling.

<More at site>


----------



## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

PrepN4Good,Woody

They don't have to devote any resources to find your garden, the aerial photos are already readily available for anyone to see. All anyone needs to know is where you live and with a mouse click, can find the zoom-able satellite view of your home and property.

One place(and their are many more) it is available is at the Weather Channel Website Interactive Local Weather Map - weather.com

Just click satellite view, enter your zip code, move the image to your property and zoom in, these images are regularly updated.

Enough resolution to almost identify the types of plants growing and definitely enough to determine what you have growing is food and not flowers or decorative plants.

You can run but you cant hide from Big Brother, If they want to raid you for any reason, and now don't have to have much of a reason other than you being a food hoarding terrorist, all they have to do is click a mouse and plan your demise.


----------



## BillS (May 30, 2011)

Woody said:


> I think that is a great idea! If they are going to tax me for growing vegetables and herbs I can make it into a home based business!
> 
> First, I will need to hire an accountant to keep track of everything. That will be me. I will pay all hired labor a percentage of the produce produced or let them take their pay in produce. They will have to claim this as income so I'll price the goods competitive enough to attract good workers. Say&#8230; $.01 for a green pepper, $.01 for tomatoes&#8230; That or I could not be a very good farmer and have poor harvests every year so no one make anything.
> 
> ...


You often hear people talk like this but it's meaningless talk. Nobody's going to deliberately lose money. OK, go ahead. Lose $1,000 on your garden. If you're in the 22% tax bracket you'll save $220 on your taxes for every $1000 that you lose. If you think that's smart, go for it.

The bottom line is, if the government wants to tax you on your garden there's very little you can do about it. The simplest way for them to do it is to estimate the approximate value of your food based on the square footage of your garden. It wouldn't be hard for the state to hire people to check every residential property for gardens. You could be required to report gardens that you have elsewhere with fines and penalties for failing to comply.

But you could still do all you can to be a royal pain to the government. You can make sure you're at the top of the list of people to be picked up when the FEMA camps open. Me, I'll do my best to remain unnoticed.


----------



## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

Davarm,

I pulled my place using that Weather.com site. The view is relatively old. Google maps has newer maps with greater clarity. As for the google maps, they're detailed enough where I can see my zip line cable which is only 3/8" wide. Plants/gardens would be really easy to see.


----------



## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

Heck, way back in the '70s in Wisconsin I heard them talking about taxing anything you do for yourself. They considered it 'income'. If you shingled your own roof, you saved the money of hiring someone, and therefore it was 'income'. It finally died because no one could decide where to draw the line. If you mowed your own lawn, it was income? If you cleaned your own house, you saved the money of hiring a maid. Then there was cooking, rotating the tires, and gee, why draw the line anywhere? If you're with your own child, you're saving the money for a baby sitter. 

It can get really ridiculous.


----------



## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

Davarm said:


> They don't have to devote any resources to find your garden, the aerial photos are already readily available for anyone to see. All anyone needs to know is where you live and with a mouse click, can find the zoom-able satellite view of your home and property.
> 
> One place(and their are many more) it is available is at the Weather Channel Website Interactive Local Weather Map - weather.com
> 
> ...


Or go to google.com. In the upper left click on 'maps'. Then type in your address. Over on the right click on 'satelite'. Zoom in and look at an aerial view of your home/property!

It's kind of a cool way to snoop around your neighborhood too...


----------



## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

bczoom said:


> Davarm,
> 
> I pulled my place using that Weather.com site. The view is relatively old. Google maps has newer maps with greater clarity. As for the google maps, they're detailed enough where I can see my zip line cable which is only 3/8" wide. Plants/gardens would be really easy to see.


Have used google maps also and the res is better but the weather channel site is somewhere I go quite often for storm info, quite important here in North Texas.


----------



## LilRedHen (Aug 28, 2011)

bczoom said:


> Davarm,
> 
> I pulled my place using that Weather.com site. The view is relatively old. Google maps has newer maps with greater clarity. As for the google maps, they're detailed enough where I can see my zip line cable which is only 3/8" wide. Plants/gardens would be really easy to see.


I just looked at the Weather.com site. It was made in the late spring of 2010 since I can see the tree stumps next to my garden (you can also see the rows in the garden). Google maps photos of my house and yard were made in the summer of 2008. The Rooster couldn't believe that those pictures were available. He even called some of his buddies to tell them.


----------



## SageAdvicefarmgirl (Jun 23, 2011)

Davarm said:


> PrepN4Good,Woody
> 
> They don't have to devote any resources to find your garden, the aerial photos are already readily available for anyone to see. All anyone needs to know is where you live and with a mouse click, can find the zoom-able satellite view of your home and property.
> 
> ...


Wow! you are right... could see my entire garden! As far as I'm concerned this is just another reason to enact a FAIR TAX that charges tax on what you buy not on income..


----------



## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

UncleJoe said:


> Sorry JayJay, I merged these two threads, put them in the wrong order and don't know how to change it.
> 
> If it's possible, could one of the admins put post #3 in the #1 spot.


It's okay--I deleted one or tried to because I reworded my title and ended with sufficiency instead of sufficient..

And Davarm..I agree but I don't think the goal is to get us dependent on TPTB..I think the goal is more like trying to exterminate 'us'. If we can grow our own, they can't poison us.


----------



## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

Woody said:


> I think that is a great idea! If they are going to tax me for growing vegetables and herbs I can make it into a home based business!
> 
> First, I will need to hire an accountant to keep track of everything. That will be me. I will pay all hired labor a percentage of the produce produced or let them take their pay in produce. They will have to claim this as income so I'll price the goods competitive enough to attract good workers. Say&#8230; $.01 for a green pepper, $.01 for tomatoes&#8230; That or I could not be a very good farmer and have poor harvests every year so no one make anything.
> 
> ...


Oh, lordy!! Only the wife of a self-employed logger knew where you were going with this after the first sentence...kick some butt for us too!!
We love those receipts for my maintenance on my little truck and SUV...uh--huh..


----------



## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

SageAdvicefarmgirl said:


> Wow! you are right... could see my entire garden! As far as I'm concerned this is just another reason to enact a FAIR TAX that charges tax on what you buy not on income..


Yea, dream on about the Fair Tax, would put too many people out of business - No tax preparers, No more(or fewer) tax attorneys, and most of all No IRS to threaten and intimidate you. Government would loose too much control of the serfs in the fiefdom. Also, with the increase in revenues they would have no excuse for not balancing the budget.

We can dream on bout that one.


----------



## survivalist72 (Jan 4, 2012)

Woody said:


> I think that is a great idea! If they are going to tax me for growing vegetables and herbs I can make it into a home based business!
> 
> First, I will need to hire an accountant to keep track of everything. That will be me. I will pay all hired labor a percentage of the produce produced or let them take their pay in produce. They will have to claim this as income so I'll price the goods competitive enough to attract good workers. Say&#8230; $.01 for a green pepper, $.01 for tomatoes&#8230; That or I could not be a very good farmer and have poor harvests every year so no one make anything.
> 
> ...


LOL I like the way you think


----------



## dahur (Dec 18, 2009)

Since I don't take anything at face value, I have done a lot of investigation on this important issue.
It seems you can grow whatever you want, for YOURSELF. No, grandma won't be cuffed and hauled off after all.
The problem is when you give your food to someone else, or take it to the Farmers Market to sell.

Also apparently this is being lobbied hard with a lot of money from Big Farmer.


----------



## Crankyfarmer (Jan 8, 2012)

Big Farmer might be a misnomer. The people that love this type of legislation are Tyson, Cargill, Monsanto and other multi-national corporations. If they are truly worried about missing out on some revenue perhaps they can actually go to the farmers markets and look instead of passing blanket legislation. 
We have a religious group called Hutterites, they go to farmers markets and sell a lot of produce. They come with refrigerated trucks and sell the majority of the produce. None of that money is ever reported as income.
To add to the fun the Hutterite corporation pays it's workers $5 a month and room and board. The families are eligible for all the government aid because of their low income. These Hutterite Corps are worth millions but suck off the public teat.


----------



## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

Why do I sense that too many people here have simply resolved to be victimized by the thieves of government? 

The reason we are in the situation we find ourselves now is due to consenting to be victimized in the past... over and over. Once the thieves see they can get away with it, the do it again... and again. Why not? If the victims continue to lay down for it - too afraid to be noticed, too afraid to be fined, too afraid to be jailed, too afraid to loose what a corrupt government doesn't believe belongs to you in the first place. Too afraid of making the ultimate sacrifice, should it be required, to not have to live on your knees. 

If "We the People" simply shouted "NO MORE!", and meant it, none of this crap would continue. The only control this corrupt government has is FEAR. It seems to be working!


----------



## lhalfcent (Mar 11, 2010)

Woody said:


> National Guard helicopters. They do not have to be flying low to spot a garden or even single plants growing. They take video and analyse it later, frame by frame if need be then can send out local law enforcement to verify and the local law does not need a warrant because reasonable suspicion exists. They then can file for an official warrant and come back.


that is why i am a firm believer in having edible landscaping. :2thumb:
do it right and you can make it a bit difficult for most to figure out what you are up to. other than the obvious food plants like mators but for the most part i do companion gardening which makes it easy to do edible landscaping. 
and last year i did edible landscaping as well as a regular garden. we grew lots of food! lol


----------



## goshengirl (Dec 18, 2010)

lhalfcent said:


> that is why i am a firm believer in having edible landscaping. :2thumb:


Excellent point/idea! :2thumb:


----------



## Crankyfarmer (Jan 8, 2012)

Jezcruzen said:


> Why do I sense that too many people here have simply resolved to be victimized by the thieves of government?
> 
> The reason we are in the situation we find ourselves now is due to consenting to be victimized in the past... over and over. Once the thieves see they can get away with it, the do it again... and again. Why not? If the victims continue to lay down for it - too afraid to be noticed, too afraid to be fined, too afraid to be jailed, too afraid to loose what a corrupt government doesn't believe belongs to you in the first place. Too afraid of making the ultimate sacrifice, should it be required, to not have to live on your knees.
> 
> If "We the People" simply shouted "NO MORE!", and meant it, none of this crap would continue. The only control this corrupt government has is FEAR. It seems to be working!


That's the wonderful thing about our government. The people that have to enforce it are our friends and neighbors. They didn't make the law, some guy in Washington did, and even he will blame it on the other party. It's pretty hard to find the person that is responsible.


----------



## Emerald (Jun 14, 2010)

Davarm said:


> PrepN4Good,Woody
> 
> They don't have to devote any resources to find your garden, the aerial photos are already readily available for anyone to see. All anyone needs to know is where you live and with a mouse click, can find the zoom-able satellite view of your home and property.
> 
> ...


Well that map was certainly fun but in no way updated at all.. I can tell by where things are in my yard and the amount of foliage on the trees that it is at least 2 springs ago. Our Camper hasn't been stored where it is in the picture since then. 
What is worse is that if you go to google maps you can click satellite view and go down to road level and "look right in my yard and house". but it is obvious that it has been many years since the photo tour was taken.
You're right we can run but not too far! I'm not as worried now that they are going to look for my garden with their billion dollar set up.. unless I start growing that illegal stuff.


----------



## valannb22 (Jan 6, 2012)

Just checked my address too. It shows the property, but not my house and it's been there for 2 1/2 years.


----------



## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

The view of my property is mid summer 2011. I have watched the images change regularly over the last 2 years. Does this mean that I am really on the top of someones list? :congrat::congrat:


----------



## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

I am glad to be in one of those rare states with no sales tax. Although, we do have a ridiculously high income tax.....my husband made under $30,000, with four dependents and yet somehow we still owed state income tax at the end of the year.

I honestly think it could happen in some states, but I just cannot see it out here. We have far too many yuppies who love organic and urban farming, have chickens in their backyards, and have love affairs with their local farmers markets, and these are the people here who have the higher incomes to be taxed, so if the state here started putting a squeeze on it all, you'd hear all those screaming. 

However, I suppose nothing is impossible these days, but around here the call for this is more likely to come from the feds to be imposed by local government than anything.


----------



## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

Crankyfarmer said:


> That's the wonderful thing about our government. The people that have to enforce it are our friends and neighbors. They didn't make the law, some guy in Washington did, and even he will blame it on the other party. It's pretty hard to find the person that is responsible.


Yep, that was the point of the article I read. If your friends and neighbors suddenly refused to enforce this or any other unconstitutional law, then who would do it? I surmise that the answer is, no one.

If friends and neighbors are enforcing laws and regulations that are destroying your freedom and creating a great hardship for you, they really are not your friends, and they are not good neighbors. That is why they must be "encouraged" to go do something else for a living. That is, in fact, a weakness of this fascist system - it requires locals to do the dirty work. I must be exploited when the time comes.


----------



## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

Jezcruzen, I have the feeling there would be few local officials who would want to be part of this....sure, a handful may see only the money in it, but many more would oppose such an idea.


----------



## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

HoppeEL4 said:


> Jezcruzen, I have the feeling there would be few local officials who would want to be part of this....sure, a handful may see only the money in it, but many more would oppose such an idea.


I hope your feelings are right. However, considerable pressure can be exerted when food, housing, family, and a regular paycheck are in the balance. They may feel there is no choice, especially in the beginning.


----------



## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

I wonder in what parts of the nation this is either more likely to happen and where it is more likely to be enforced (some areas greedier than others)? I do feel here, people in local public offices are very unlikely to work with feds on this, and maybe even with state. 

I could see in certain places, they could wind up treating it like finding a pot grow in the national forests....

Here in Oregon, it would be hard to do, as we are a larger state and then the population is not as big, plenty of people in spread out locations. I do think it would be possible that they would catch people on it at a Farmers Market if they were selling their own home grown stuff, but on their properties? I don't see that.


----------



## AlabamaGal (Dec 27, 2011)

Some politician is always making creepy/weird/out-of-touch/insane comments, or submitting bills guaranteed to go nowhere but make some particular donor happy. 

It's when they start to band together with the same idea you have to worry.

But I do have to agree somewhat -- if you are selling retail food, whether you have a "farm" or a "garden" it's still a business and no different than someone selling widgets. If your business is small enough, you are exempt from income taxes. 

Alas, in this state food is not exempt from sales tax, which is the worst lunacy, especially since sales tax is 8% in much of AL and even 10% in spots. The legislators all agree it needs to be removed, but with revenues down they are a bit like St. Augustine ("not yet!") and somehow it doesn't even reach the floor.


----------



## jungatheart (Feb 2, 2010)

AlabamaGal said:


> Some politician is always making creepy/weird/out-of-touch/insane comments, or submitting bills guaranteed to go nowhere but make some particular donor happy.
> 
> It's when they start to band together with the same idea you have to worry.
> 
> ...


Geeze, 8% for food? That would kill me. Figure I'd be able to eat 92% of what I now eat.


----------



## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

Being that my state felt the sting of reconstruction after the most recent unpleasantness referred to hereabouts as the War of Northern Aggression, don't be lulled into thinking that your "local" officials won't go along with the overall plan of making you into a total slave of the system.

In reconstruction, the federal government sent in their own people. They didn't rely on any locals. What locals remained in any official capacity was vetted as loyal to the federals, but still was never allowed any real authority, and they never were allowed to make decisions on their own.

Something to think about.


----------



## AlabamaGal (Dec 27, 2011)

jungatheart said:


> Geeze, 8% for food? That would kill me. Figure I'd be able to eat 92% of what I now eat.


Mississippi charges sales tax on food, too. It is truly loathsome, especially for folks where 8-10% cuts into their real food buying power instead of a luxury. If I were in that position, I'd have to assess the ROI in making rare but huge shopping trips across the state line. Or buy more food online.

Curiously, livestock, livestock food and medication, agricultural chemicals and seeds and plants for commonly recognized edible plants are NOT taxed. (Tell that to Home Depot.) Nor are direct farm sales where the only workers are the immediate family.

Don't even ask what the taxes on liquor are, plus we're in an ABC state. Ow.

Everyone says how "cheap" taxes are here, but when push comes to shove the whole total doesn't seem any lower to me than the last state I lived in. I think most residents don't even notice the extra line item. When I was a kid, my mom used to have this red gizmo that she used to add up her grocery bill while in the store -- with whole dollars and 10 cent push buttons, IIRC. She just added the cost of whatever was going in her cart to the gadget and it gave her a total. She would have noticed the extra cost!

Ah ha -- here one is:
The Budgeteer 4 Digit Handy Counter by Nevco by kissavintagedesign


----------



## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

The newest municipal "slang" if the word "fee" instead of tax. Now most local governments and some state governments as well are coming up with fees - garbage collection fee, water run-off fee, public use fee, parking fee, etc.

Amounts to the same thing.

One big advantage is that localities are much easier to control, followed by states themselves if the people don't like an issue. For instance... about three years ago some Einstein in state government came up with the idea to apply monetary penalties to driving infractions even long after court fines/fees had been paid. It only applied to state residents, not those ticketed from out of state. You would have thought that the legislature was going to be physically pulled out of the state house and executed! The law disappeared overnight.

Thats what needs to happen at every level of government.


----------



## jungatheart (Feb 2, 2010)

Jezcruzen said:


> The newest municipal "slang" if the word "fee" instead of tax. Now most local governments and some state governments as well are coming up with fees - garbage collection fee, water run-off fee, public use fee, parking fee, etc.
> 
> Amounts to the same thing.
> 
> ...


Complete agreement.


----------



## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

Jezcruzen said:


> The newest municipal "slang" if the word "fee" instead of tax. Now most local governments and some state governments as well are coming up with fees - garbage collection fee, water run-off fee, public use fee, parking fee, etc.
> 
> Amounts to the same thing.
> 
> ...


Any money that the government mandates you to spend, no matter what the reason or what "service" you receive in return, is a tax. They may choose different words for it, but crap is crap no matter how much perfume you spray on it. A number of years ago, I did some math and came to the conclusion that If you figure in all the taxes, fees and mandatory spending that the government requires of us(in the U.S.), about %40 to %70 of each dollar you spend is a tax of some kind or another.

Concerning the law regarding retroactive fees that was pulled in your state, well here in Texas, we have some like that also. Was speaking to a city official(who was also an officer of he court) a couple years back and they told me that the state was going back over tickets issued for driving without insurance(making it mandatory years back made it a tax) and levying additional fines for the offenses. This is just one step closer to a "Stalinist" type of dictatorship this government is rapidly becoming.


----------



## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

Fee's, taxes, and such...all things in which I can actually find myself in agreement with the Anarachists against it all, but thats the ONLY thing I agree with when it comes to them...

Gardening, I will continue to work at it, keep planting, keep tying every year no matter what. Let them try to intervene in whatever way some might think they should be able to.

I have been considering buying some heirloom seeds from a local company. I wondered if I was ambitious enough to be collecting my own seeds at the end of the season, or buy more from them (and keep them in jobs..)? I don't know yet. Might try to collect a few for my own training, and get used to this process little by little, and then buy what I need each year till I am proficient at it.


----------



## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

HoppeEL4 said:


> Fee's, taxes, and such...all things in which I can actually find myself in agreement with the Anarachists against it all, but thats the ONLY thing I agree with when it comes to them...
> 
> Gardening, I will continue to work at it, keep planting, keep tying every year no matter what. Let them try to intervene in whatever way some might think they should be able to.
> 
> I have been considering buying some heirloom seeds from a local company. I wondered if I was ambitious enough to be collecting my own seeds at the end of the season, or buy more from them (and keep them in jobs..)? I don't know yet. Might try to collect a few for my own training, and get used to this process little by little, and then buy what I need each year till I am proficient at it.


Someone here that knows a lot more about it than I can comment, but a friend who is a Master Gardener has told me that vegetable seeds only remain viable for a couple of years. After two or three years its a crap shoot as to whether or not they will germinate properly.

If that is the case, it diminishes the value of a long-term seed storage plan I would think. Most old timers just saved their seed from one season to the next.


----------



## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

Jezcruzen said:


> Someone here that knows a lot more about it than I can comment, but a friend who is a Master Gardener has told me that vegetable seeds only remain viable for a couple of years. After two or three years its a crap shoot as to whether or not they will germinate properly.
> 
> If that is the case, it diminishes the value of a long-term seed storage plan I would think. Most old timers just saved their seed from one season to the next.


From my experience, that is correct. I had a separate freezer that I kept all my seeds in, it extends their life considerably when you freeze them, unfortunately, the freezer croaked a year ago and have not had the funds to replace it yet.

Monsanto will eventually get around to getting the suicide genes into all the seeds on the market making it impossible to produce your own. They will probably even find a way to get it into heirloom seeds at some point.


----------



## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

Davarm, that is so true. They want complete control over the market. Lord help us...However, I think if we all start now, and get something going, locally people could grow larger crops of one heirloom plant, save seeds and barter for the rest, keeping those out there protected from the long arm of the big corporations.

I know little to nothing about seed saving, and would assume that there must be a limit of how long they could last. However, think about this. Our place is on a cleared plot of nine acres. The front yard has been cleared and groomed for about 50 years. We have one Douglas Fir tree coming up that is about 8 feet tall, it was not planted but grew there via some obvious deeply buried old seeds from the cone(s), as well I went to take out a spindly rhodie and under that was a 1 foot tall Douglas also shooting up, on it's own of course. So I think I'd err on the side of saving seeds long term and see what happens.

I wonder if buying them and vaccum sealing them would be a way to prolong their life?


----------



## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

Hoppe, that's a tough one. Some people say vacuum sealing deprives the seeds of air and they'll 'die'. However, at the end of 2010's garden I vacuum sealed a bunch of my saved seed. I also stored some in envelopes or paper sacks, and in glass jars. I mean, I stored the same seed by at least 3 different methods. I kept some in the house where it wouldn't freeze, and some in the barn where it would be exposed to temperatures up and down the scale. Things like the peas sprouted and produced with no variation, but carrot, lettuce, and celery had differences. Only the seed stored in the barn sprouted, regardless of how it was packaged. The only beet seed that sprouted was stored in a ziplock bag. 

Keep saving seed, by whatever method you can, and test it out the next year. If it doesn't grow, at least you tried. If you don't try, you'll always have to buy seed. And you might be pleasantly surprised by how many successfully grow. Keep in mind there are a lot of variables: soil quality, soil temperature, moisture, and so on. Don't give up after the first failed attempt. Do it now, though, while your life doesn't depend on it. Don't wait until it does.


----------



## AlabamaGal (Dec 27, 2011)

Jezcruzen said:


> Someone here that knows a lot more about it than I can comment, but a friend who is a Master Gardener has told me that vegetable seeds only remain viable for a couple of years. After two or three years its a crap shoot as to whether or not they will germinate properly.


It depends on the seed. Some last for practically forever, others are only good just barely to the next season. They sprouted wheat from the tombs of the pharaohs; I can't see to get stevia to germinate the very next year. 

Reference info is available online for the various kinds, but seed life depends on how it was saved and stored, too.

I save quite a bit. Susan Ashworth's "Seed to Seed" is a great resource book to have on hand. Still, some things I *can't* save here due to cross pollination from wild plants. Some I don't save because of space issues -- they just aren't worth it. And somethings I am still experimenting to find the one variety I want to keep.


----------



## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

Cross pollination is a issue seldom discussed. I would think that GMO plants could/would/will cross pollinate with any heirloom plants and render the heirloom seeds worthless.

Anyone know for sure?


----------



## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

Yes, it's already happened. I heard about a lawsuit where Monsanto sued a farmer because the non-monsanto corn or wheat or whatever he planted had cross-pollinated with nearby crops of Monsanto seed, and they went after the farmer for $$$ because his seed had Monsanto genetics mixed with it. I think the farmer should have sued THEM for polluting their seeds.

I also heard about a small south American country (Chili? Peru? I can't remember) that outlawed Monsanto's genetically modified corn, yet the wind caused cross-pollination and tainted their seed.

Our own garden is so isolated I'm not sure what problems we'd have, but for many people, I'm sure it's something to be concerned about. If Monsanto could go after a farmer for something that was their own fault, they may be planning to use cross-pollination as a weapon to shut down gardening with non-Monsanto seed? Maybe I'll go read some of the threads in the gardening part of this site. I imagine it's been discussed there.


----------



## AlabamaGal (Dec 27, 2011)

It was canola, and not actually a food crop. Unfortunately, the Percy Schmeiser case is not the only one where Monsanto sued farmers. Mr. Schmeiser, a Canadian farmer, was too dang stubborn to back down when they sent him a threatening letter, so he sued Monsanto. And lost.

Then Monsanto sued HIM. Ultimately it went to the Canadian Supreme Court and ended in a draw, sort of. Monsanto's patent was upheld (since Schmeiser _deliberately_ saved and replanted seed that he _knew_ was contaminated). His seed crop he'd been developing for 50 years was lost since it was contaminated and couldn't be used anymore and he spent hundreds of thousands in legal fees -- but Monsanto didn't get to squeeze any license fees or damages out of him. The Canadian court did not rule on whether Monsanto was at fault for contaminating Schmeiser crops, since that wasn't the suit brought before them.

Here in the US, Monsanto continues to sue farmers, although in fairness most of these cases involve farmers who bought their seed and then chose to violate the contract and save/replant anyway.

Meanwhile, farmers are suing right back over contamination. Organic alfalfa farmers suing the USDA got all the way to the Supreme Court, and while the ruling was a mixed bag, the Supreme Court put the smackdown on the USDA and said they couldn't just approve it without lots of testing, that economic loss from cross-pollination was real harm, and that gene flow that contaminates non-GE crops was also illegal and constituted real environmental harm.

So, for the moment, GE alfalfa is forbidden. That's a big win, at least temporarily. And since gene flow is now part of court precedent, it gives farmers with future lawsuits some bigger teeth.

I'm not anti-GE, I'm just anti-GE crops being planted outside of sterile, controlled greenhouses and anti using the general population as a giant bioassay trial. They'd like us believe it's about improved nutrition, bigger yields, using less water and delivering medication to the 3rd world, but the reality is that the only GE crops we have are ones designed to sell more herbicide that's made by the same company selling the seeds.

:rant:


----------



## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

Something I am not familiar with, since I have not been a true gardener for too long. Are all seeds you buy in stores from genetically modified plants?

I know there are plenty of hybrids plants and of course those are mainly sterile in their own reproduction, but how much out there is genetically modified? I am talkking Ed Hume, Lily...you know the usual ones.


----------



## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

I’m not sure they are GM but most are Hybrids, likely F1 hybrids. F1 simply means they are a cross between two different varieties of the same plant and will not seed true. Over generations they will revert back to one parent or the other. You would have to buy seeds each year to get the same results.

On the packets and in the catalogues they should be noted as hybrid, OP (Open Pollinated) or Heirloom. OP and heirloom will seed true to species and you will get the same plant each generation. One catalogue I got this year, Baker Creek perhaps, they said that they lost a few OP species to contamination. I believe they test the seeds genes to verify.

Unless you are in an agricultural area I don’t think you have to worry about GM cross pollination. The only thing you would have to worry about is crossing in your garden or by the neighbors garden.


----------



## AlabamaGal (Dec 27, 2011)

HoppeEL4 said:


> Something I am not familiar with, since I have not been a true gardener for too long. Are all seeds you buy in stores from genetically modified plants?


No, with a caveat. Although Monsanto controls about 40% of the US seed market, they do not sell GMO crops in the normal backyard/home seed channels and most things aren't what you'd grow on a small scale anyway.

BUT - that doesn't mean that your seed hasn't been cross-pollinated even if you grow seed labeled as organic heirlooms. The seed crop must be tested to tell for sure, and most seed companies don't test. Obviously, squash and zucchini are a particular concern, but seeds sold in the US are sometimes sourced from overseas, so tomatoes could be a concern, but they very rarely cross-pollinate.

The current list of available GMO crops in the US is:

corn (field, not sweet)
soybean
cotton
sugar beets
papaya
canola
zucchini
yellow squash
tobacco

formerly available, still grown overseas:
tomatoes
potatoes

may be available soon:
alfalfa
"golden" rice
sugar cane

available but not currently grown in the US:
sweet peppers


----------



## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

Good to know that the gardeners seed market it mainly just cross bred. I understand about carrots and such, which have been modified over centuries by man. We have wild carrots here (Queen Annes Lace in spring, root is edible, but tastes awful), and know of course mans cross breeding to improve them is much better, but some things are not. I have had heirloom tomatoes versus cross bred and the heirlooms actually have flavor, whereas cross bred varieties do not. 

We are in an agricultural area, but it is mainly nurseries out here now. Used to be a lot of berry farms, but they are gone. There is a lot of bans on getting certain plants from out of state, here. I wanted Gurneys "Tophat" little blueberry bush, and they are not allowed to ship it to Oregon.....I think I might just have it sent to my best friend in Washington.


----------

