# Looting or…



## TheLazyL

EOTWAWKI

One example I’ve read, “That if it was your family starving, you’d quickly forget you morals to feed your family.” Saving my family but killing someone else’s family by taking their food? I could not do that.

My definition of looting (stealing) is taking something that does not belong to you without the Owner’s permission. Think hurricane Katrina, busting out store front windows, grabbing TVs and running. To me that is looting. I would shoot the Looter on sight with no hesitation.

Now if you meant scavenging (foraging), that is an entire different matter. 

Yard is overgrown and full of brush. House windows are broken out and part of the roof has collapsed. I’ve been watching the house all day and haven’t seen any evidence of anyone living there. Under the basement stairs buried in Christmas decorations I find 2 jars of canned beans covered in dust. I’d take them and I fill my canteen with water from the hot water tank. I have no expectation of anyone left to claim ownership.

Upstairs the kitchen cupboards have been ransacked a long time ago. Debris all over the floor except by the refrigerator. Strange. I move the refrigerator away from the wall and find a small door, like what is used to cover a plumbing access. I find 30 cans of peaches, Ravioli, corn and soup! But the cans look new, like they have been put there within the last month. I believe I have stumbled on someone’s cache. I slowly put all the cans back, close the door and push the refrigerator back. Erase the slide marks on the floor and scatter debris around. I make a mentally note that if I’m back this way in a year or so…perhaps.

I’m out in the boondocks, never ranged this far from base before. Looked down from a hill top and I see the roof of what looks like a railroad box car. It took a bit of work but I finally get the box car door open. I think I have died and went to Heaven. Box car full of Twinkies! They will not last long in this heat, some have already spoiled but there is plenty left to fill my stomach. Family is going to have a treat when I get back!

Which do you mean Looting or Scavenging?


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## BillS

After the collapse I'd be willing to look for things that I need or my family needs. I wouldn't take anything from anybody that's living. If they have an apple tree with apples on it I'd take some of them without a second thought. I might go through the house looking for clothes for our grandson. I might check the garage and look for tools. Just stuff I need now. I wouldn't take stuff just to take it. I'm not taking anybody's electronics or jewelry. I'd try to keep track of what I took from where so that after the collapse is over I could return the property to it's rightful owners. If there are any.

On the other hand, it might not be a bad idea to take the jewelry box, right the address on it in magic marker so you can return it later. There will definitely be people taking anything of value from everyone. Even taking wedding rings off dead people.


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## CrackbottomLouis

I prep so that a decision like that doesn't become necessary. Its pretty easy for me to say looting would never cross my mind but but if I had a starving kid that may be different. Especially if I didn't have preps to rely on.


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## Caribou

When I was working construction we were talking about thieves. The consensus was that the thief that stole the cash out of your wallet deserved to go to jail. The thief that stole your tools, stole your ability to work and to put food on the table for your family and was truly evil. There are different levels of bad. There are certainly things I would do, to feed my family, that are generally frowned upon by the constabulary. Causing another family to starve is not on that list.

TheLazyL-Nice piece of writing, let me know when the book comes out.


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## OldCootHillbilly

I was gonna stay outa this, but I'll toss my two coppers in. 

Ta me, lootin be takin tv's an non essential stuff say video games an the like. Shoot on sight. 

Food, ifin I find a warehouse that got racks a food, (now were talkin end a society as we knows it here) I'm gonna take what I need. That ain't lootin. There would be no sense in lettin resources gota waste. There gonna be folk out there who gonna take it, an most likely all a it ifin they can rather then see others get it.

Yep I got food on hand, but, sooner er later there gonna be thins were gonna run outa. Yes we can grow our own. Last year we had a hard drought, without LOTs a water, we'd a had nothin. Water gonna be a precious resource to. Yeah, ya can forage, but again, drought gonna put the hurt on that to as well as wildlife.

So, ta me, lootin be different then usin resources thater gonna gota waste er be horded by somebody lookin ta get rich (one way er another) with them same resources.

We can handle most short term (say a year) problems, but ain't none a us gonna be able ta store enough stuff ifin the infrastructure breaks down. Yer gonna need ta scrounge as many resources as ya can when ya can. Now that don't mean takin from somebodies family what they got cause that ain't right. Were talkin stores, warehouses, trains an such here.

Could a feller get shot doin this? Yup, but then again there'll be roamin gangs an such what er gonna take from anybody they can cause they don't wanna work fer there food. Ya gonna have ta be ready fer them an a far different society then what we got right now. I hope we don't never see the times when we gotta do this, but. were one super bug er major disaster away from it. Best ta prepare as best ya can an still be open ta outside resources.


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## KaiWinters

I wouldn't take from another person but other than that there are no rules if your family is desperate for food, etc.


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## TheLazyL

KaiWinters said:


> I wouldn't take from another person but other than that there are no rules if your family is desperate for food, etc.


I respectfully disagree.


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## swjohnsey

Stealin' is stealin'. Most folks have done it a one time or another. Would I steal to feed my family? Yes. Don't be surprised if you are out "scavenging" and someone put a bullet in you. They just thought you were looting.


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## ras1219como

OldCootHillbilly said:


> I was gonna stay outa this, but I'll toss my two coppers in.
> 
> Ta me, lootin be takin tv's an non essential stuff say video games an the like. Shoot on sight.
> 
> Food, ifin I find a warehouse that got racks a food, (now were talkin end a society as we knows it here) I'm gonna take what I need. That ain't lootin. There would be no sense in lettin resources gota waste. There gonna be folk out there who gonna take it, an most likely all a it ifin they can rather then see others get it.
> 
> Yep I got food on hand, but, sooner er later there gonna be thins were gonna run outa. Yes we can grow our own. Last year we had a hard drought, without LOTs a water, we'd a had nothin. Water gonna be a precious resource to. Yeah, ya can forage, but again, drought gonna put the hurt on that to as well as wildlife.
> 
> So, ta me, lootin be different then usin resources thater gonna gota waste er be horded by somebody lookin ta get rich (one way er another) with them same resources.
> 
> We can handle most short term (say a year) problems, but ain't none a us gonna be able ta store enough stuff ifin the infrastructure breaks down. Yer gonna need ta scrounge as many resources as ya can when ya can. Now that don't mean takin from somebodies family what they got cause that ain't right. Were talkin stores, warehouses, trains an such here.
> 
> Could a feller get shot doin this? Yup, but then again there'll be roamin gangs an such what er gonna take from anybody they can cause they don't wanna work fer there food. Ya gonna have ta be ready fer them an a far different society then what we got right now. I hope we don't never see the times when we gotta do this, but. were one super bug er major disaster away from it. Best ta prepare as best ya can an still be open ta outside resources.


I have to agree that there is a difference between looting and scavenging. I absolutely view looting as taking something that you do not need. Watch some videos of riots...you will see people walking out of electronics stores with television sets etc. that is looting. That being said stealing is stealing as swj said. Whether you take a stick of gum, a can of beans, or an Xbox it's still stealing. But people, any person, would take food if they or their loved ones were starving. There is a very fine moral line in these situations and in a dire SHTF situation a desperate hungry person will do what they need to do to survive. Obviously that moral line is taking things you don't need or taking something from another living person that also needs that item. I can also say that I believe that after a SHTF TEOTWAWKI event society will not be operating on the same level we are now so there is probably little chance that law enforcement (assuming the govt is still operational) will care if you took a loaf of bread to survive.


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## swjohnsey

I thought stealin' was taking something that doesn't belong to you.


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## ras1219como

You are correct sir stealing is taking something that doesn't belong to you.


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## GrinnanBarrett

When you start talking about looting you are walking a very fine line. When people are hungry and especially if their loved ones are hungry they will do extreme things. So will the people they are looting from. If you have ever had your property broken into and things taken it is an experience you will not forget. 

If things have deteriorated to the point people are out looting from each other then the rules of civilized behavior have flown out the door. I have seen true looters before. In 1968 I saw people looting off dead bodies from an airplane crash in Central Texas. Their excuse was the people were dead and they wanted their stuff so it was okay. 

unfortunately looting comes with hard times. In truly bad times you will see the worst in people and the best in people. Hopefully you will see more of the best. It is like being in a fire fight, until you have been there you really do not know what you will do. GB


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## swjohnsey

Looting = stealin'


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## driftpin

swjohnsey said:


> Stealin' is stealin'. Most folks have done it a one time or another. Would I steal to feed my family? Yes. Don't be surprised if you are out "scavenging" and someone put a bullet in you. They just thought you were looting.


Agreed.......


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## Tacitus

swjohnsey said:


> I thought stealin' was taking something that doesn't belong to you.


No. Stealing is taking something that belongs to someone else.

If it belongs to you, the question is moot.
If it belongs to someone else, it is impermissible stealing.
If it belongs to no one (e.g., the original owner has abandoned it), then it is permissible salvage.

Historically, societies encourage the return of abandoned assets to usefulness for the society. That is why salvage ("scavenging") is permissible. As OldCootHillbilly said, "There would be no sense in lettin resources gota waste."

Threads like this are good because it is useful and important to think about these things before hand. Morality of a particular action in a particular situation must be determined, to the extent possible, before one finds oneself in the situation. If you haven't thought things through in the comfort of your own home, on your own couch, ahead of time, then when you get into the situation, you will find yourself doing what _feels_ right instead of what _is_ right. In some situations, it will feel right to do anything. Morality gives you the ability to resist such feelings. If your goal is to maintain your morality...if you believe that death is not the worst thing that can happen to a person, then thinking things through ahead of time is the way to go.


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## Padre

swjohnsey said:


> I thought stealin' was taking something that doesn't belong to you.


Nothing really belongs to you, you can't articulate a principle on which you can base ownership other than possession or legal title, which is itself based (historically) upon possession, which according to the legal maxim is 9/10ths of the law. Sure, your house and land "belongs to you" until you go back to Squanto who was dispossessed of the land 400 years ago, and why was the land his? Because he got there before you, that is not a very objective standard. The fact is the biblical tenet regarding stealing is about one's relationship with the other, not about intrinsic ownership, which can be only claimed by the Creator of these things. We don't steal because it causes anger, conflict, violence, murder, and ultimately war--aka failure to love--not because you have a God given right to this or that thing.

I have said this many times, some people like it, some don't: when it comes to big business, these corporations are legal (persons) fictions that cease to exist the minute the rule of law cease to exist. Shareholders, legally have a claim on the assets of these corporations, but again in the absence of the rule of law, who is going to administer that claim. So essentially, so long as the rule of law is suspended the assets of corporations are fair game for foraging.

Likewise, assets abandoned by their "owners" are subject to the rules of salvage during a SHTF, just like a boat adrift at sea, because at sea there really is no rule of law to enforce title, because of the unlikelihood of finding the titled owner, AND because without supervision the likelihood is that the item will likely go to waste.

Now, this does not mean looking for a pretext to claim property is abandoned, when it is not, you in fact have a moral duty to do due diligence when savaging and recognize that scavaging does place you in a high level of danger that you will mistakenly try to scavenge something someone else feels they have a claim to and of be rebuffed (violently) for trying.


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## Mortblanc

For those with short memories, or fading ones as the memory of Katrina is now 8 years past.

Walmart issued a cover policy during that disaster.

Police were welcome to break in and take needed ammo/weapons for their duties.

Regular folk were welcome to take food and "necessities" from abandoned stores.

The main request was to do no damage to the structures themselves.

There are laws that cover abandoned goods, structures, possessions. They can sell your car if you leave it at the impound lot too long and they will sell an abandoned house for back taxes. Forget about your lay-a-way and they put it back on the shelf and keep your money. Likewise, the pawn shop is going to sell what you do not reclaim.

It is a simple step to extend those attitudes to common sense practices during a crisis.

There is also the principle of being a good neighbor. We watch out for each other now so why would I stop doing that SHTF? 

If someone sticks their head out of a pile of rubble and screams "THAT'S NOT YOURS!" you might want to move along.


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## readytogo

*Predetors and Looting*

The regular home owner/family dad is not train to control a mod, in this case predator's, equal force will do it, predators and looters are the same they both take advantage of a crisis, a type of stampede with burglary included. We all know that stealing is wrong no matter its purpose, the idea that stealing to support your family is wrong, you will be stealing from another family in times of need. Is a dire situation to be in but it can be avoided by simple preparetions,the first 24 hours will be critical, no rule of law, your home is your bunker, by hiding ,it will look empty easy target, show yourself, the more the best, block your street with some neighbors, keep outsiders out and above all keep your pantry full, rotated food items, water, stay tune to your local news, form a family/friends group, specially if you have a business to protect. In 1980 Miami was set on fire by looters in1992 Hurricane Andrew before it was finish looters hit the streets, it took a while before the Guards arrived, we were on our own the police said, so my good neighbor and I sat in the front porch, no power for a week, while the apple pie baked in the BBQ.


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## millertimedoneright

In a true shtf situation the ones with the high morals will be the ones who die off...someone can talk all day long about how they won't "steal" but when the shtf all bets are off...I will do whatever it takes to keep my loves ones fed and safe and so will all of u...if it comes down to me or some idiot down the road who didn't secure his provisions guess what it will be me...don't get me wrong if someone with suitable skills or barter items needs something I can spare I will help them out...u can stock all the goods in the world but for all u know the day it goes down ur house may burn down and u and ur family will be left starving forcing u to "loot"


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## helicopter5472

So if the lic. plate on the truck says "government" it's up for grabs since we all paid for it...


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## hiwall

In an EOTWAWKI it would be sad not to gather resources before they go to waste. Whether it is food or metal items or clothes or whatever. I would think everyone left alive in that type of situation should try to save as much pre-shtf items as is reasonable. It might be a generation or longer before new could be made again.


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## swjohnsey

I think I'll save the Corvette down the street.

Disappearing posts! Is this the conspiracy forum?


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## BillS

millertimedoneright said:


> In a true shtf situation the ones with the high morals will be the ones who die off...someone can talk all day long about how they won't "steal" but when the shtf all bets are off...I will do whatever it takes to keep my loves ones fed and safe and so will all of u...if it comes down to me or some idiot down the road who didn't secure his provisions guess what it will be me...don't get me wrong if someone with suitable skills or barter items needs something I can spare I will help them out...u can stock all the goods in the world but for all u know the day it goes down ur house may burn down and u and ur family will be left starving forcing u to "loot"


No, I refuse to rob other people to feed my family. If that means that I'm more likely to die after it hits the fan, so be it. I'll be able to face God with a clean conscience.

(Psa 33:18-19 NIV) But the eyes of the LORD are on those who fear him, on those whose hope is in his unfailing love, {19} to deliver them from death and keep them alive in famine.


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## seanallen

BillS said:


> No, I refuse to rob other people to feed my family. If that means that I'm more likely to die after it hits the fan, so be it. I'll be able to face God with a clean conscience.
> 
> (Psa 33:18-19 NIV) But the eyes of the LORD are on those who fear him, on those whose hope is in his unfailing love, {19} to deliver them from death and keep them alive in famine.


Yeah right. Whatever. The right situ comes along, you will eat the liver out of a corpse you shot just to stay alive.


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## swjohnsey

You are either a Christian or you ain't.


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## Bobbb

seanallen said:


> Yeah right. Whatever. The right situ comes along, you will eat the liver out of a corpse you shot just to stay alive.


You mean like if you find yourself in a mass shooting and you're unarmed you'll run over everyone to flee? Like these guys?

Three young women who survived the Colorado movie-theater massacre with only minor wounds have told the story of how their boyfriends died heroically while protecting them from the attacker's bullets.

The three men Jon Blunk, Matt McQuinn and Alex Teves used their bodies to shield their girlfriends when James Eagan Holmes opened fire on the crowd at the Aurora Cineplex.​


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## millertimedoneright

When things get bad enough there is no way my family will die cuz I refused to do what had to be done...friends, family, and some neighbors would be safe but there is a few neighbors that I can't stand...people will have no morals and will do the same to u...it's easy to say how u will act when u and ur family are sitting in the ac watching tv with full stomachs and easy access to doctors...there ain't one person who if their child was sick and dying wouldn't do whatever it took to get that bottle of antibiotics sitting in the neighbors house or the food they have sitting in their pantry...it's a dog eat dog world...maybe ur supplies will be intact...maybe ur food and resources will last...maybe u will be able to barter for what u need...but it might come down to u versus the world...in the end there is nothing I wouldnt do for my family...


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## millertimedoneright

Killing would be by last resort only...however if ur dumb enough to leave what my family needs unprotected it's ur loss


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## mojo4

Its pretty simple. Stealing is taking from people who are there and own the property. Scavenging is taking abandoned property from people who are dead or gone and have no relatives coming forward to claim it. In other words that property will lay there forever unless someone steps up and claims it. Just like stuff left out on the sidewalk when people move for others to pick through, abandoned unclaimed property is for whoever wants or needs it. Just like people give away old clothes they have outgrown or tools they don't need or want there is no problem taking abandoned goods.


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## swjohnsey

You think the folks were looting or scavenging at West?


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## hiwall

> You think the folks were looting or scavenging at West?


The OP said EOTWAWKI.

So if you find a deer that was just killed by wolves/feral dogs and take the meat. Is that looting? You have no deer license. Or are you just using something that would go to waste other wise.
If your neighbors are dead and you pick their apples, looting? Your neighbors have a large flowing spring that eventually flows into a river and you walk over to fill buckets for drinking water, looting? Using/conserving resources is not looting, it is common sense.


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## TheLazyL

seanallen said:


> Yeah right. Whatever. The right situ comes along, you will eat the liver out of a corpse you shot just to stay alive.


Would you consider yourself a Sheepdog or a Wolf?


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## BillS

BillS said:


> No, I refuse to rob other people to feed my family. If that means that I'm more likely to die after it hits the fan, so be it. I'll be able to face God with a clean conscience.
> 
> (Psa 33:18-19 NIV) But the eyes of the LORD are on those who fear him, on those whose hope is in his unfailing love, {19} to deliver them from death and keep them alive in famine.


I have to correct myself here. I actually like my chances a lot better doing things the right way and not the wrong way. I've certainly seen God work in my life and the lives of others to be able to face the future with a sense of peace and not one of fear. Regardless of what happens.


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## swjohnsey

hiwall said:


> The OP said EOTWAWKI.
> 
> So if you find a deer that was just killed by wolves/feral dogs and take the meat. Is that looting? You have no deer license. Or are you just using something that would go to waste other wise.
> If your neighbors are dead and you pick their apples, looting? Your neighbors have a large flowing spring that eventually flows into a river and you walk over to fill buckets for drinking water, looting? Using/conserving resources is not looting, it is common sense.


States laws vary. Road kill deer is not legal, I assume same for deer killed by dogs. Picking your neighbor's apple is stealing. Water belongs to the people.


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## BillS

seanallen said:


> Yeah right. Whatever. The right situ comes along, you will eat the liver out of a corpse you shot just to stay alive.


If you think that then you obviously don't know me and you don't know God. There are a lot of people who prefer to think that authentic Christians are really just as godless as they are. In reality, when you accept Christ and live for Him, He gives you a love for Him and a love for people. Besides the peace and joy that comes from living a clean, moral life. I'm not perfect but I'll never be the person I was before I was saved either. When those of us who are saved let our lights shine that light attracts some people and repels others. That's OK. It's the league I play in.

(2 Cor 2:15-16p NIV) For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. {16} To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life.


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## northstarprepper

Well said. Belonging to Christ means being like Him.


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## swjohnsey

So, would Jesus scavenge? Loot? Steal?


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## Caribou

seanallen said:


> Yeah right. Whatever. The right situ comes along, you will eat the liver out of a corpse you shot just to stay alive.


I have read too many survival stories to deny this possibility. "Alive" is the only title that comes to mind right now but I have read several others. If I am ever brought to this it will not be because I went out hunting you but because someone came to attack me.

Fishing or hunting without government approval may be a crime but it is not stealing. Is taking a kill from a pack of dogs stealing? The dogs probably think so, so what.

Some have suggested that if I leave something with insufficient security to prevent their stealing my possessions, that I am responsible and deserve to lose those items. I will not waste my time arguing morals. As long as you are willing to pay the price then go ahead and roll the dice. With a survival plan like this you may be on a roll for awhile but eventually you are going to crap out. I am curious, if you are there to steal, is your victim required to warn you of his (or her) security or defense plan?


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## Bobbb

Caribou said:


> I am curious, if you are there to steal, is your victim required to warn you of his (or her) security or defense plan?


I'm curious about whether the victim has a duty to approach the thief and ask for his goods to be returned or if he is within his rights to shoot him dead from afar because the thief has shown that he isn't bound by any moral code and so is a danger to everyone?


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## swjohnsey

Suppose he thinks he is just "scavanging" stuff?


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## Caribou

Bobbb said:


> I'm curious about whether the victim has a duty to approach the thief and ask for his goods to be returned or if he is within his rights to shoot him dead from afar because the thief has shown that he isn't bound by any moral code and so is a danger to everyone?


Along these lines, it is black letter law that you may use deadly force to defend yourself from an attack that may cause death or serious injury. Is a slow death from starvation less of a threat than a gun or a club?


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## swjohnsey

So the starving hordes have a legal right to loot preppers?


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## Caribou

swjohnsey said:


> Suppose he thinks he is just "scavanging" stuff?


You come around the corner and see two guys fighting. One of them draws a gun. You have a legal concealed carry pistol. You draw your gun and shoot the man with the gun saving the life of the other man. If the man you shot was a criminal and the life you saved was an undercover cop you are a hero. If you shot the undercover cop trying to arrest a felon you are in big trouble. It is your responsibility to know the particulars in any situation before taking action.

It is your responsibility to know whether these goods are abandoned or not. The penalty for being wrong can be extreme. Good intensions don't always help when your presumptions are incorrect.


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## Tacitus

> Yeah right. Whatever. The right situ comes along, you will eat the liver out of a corpse you shot just to stay alive.


There are two issues here:
1) Do we choose good as our moral guide, or do we choose evil?
2) What will we actually do when push comes to shove? Will we be able to live up to our moral code when circumstances tempt us to deviate from that code?

The first issue, is something we decide now, in comfort, with forethought. Do we stand with the rightious, nor not? Do we plan on moderating our behavior, or do we plan on justifying the means by the end in every case?

The second issue, what we will actually end up doing when the "right situ comes along" is another issue entirely. We won't know what we will do in the fire until we feel the heat. People who try to live by a good moral code do bad things all the time. Some would call that sin.

But I believe that Person A who chooses a good moral code but fails to live up to it when they find themselves in difficult circumstances, is a very different person than Person B who chooses in advance to live by an evil code. Limited to those two types of people, I'll take Person A to guard my six when the SHTF.


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## millertimedoneright

Doing what it takes to take care of ur family in absolute necessity isn't a "survival plan"...I would never plan to rob, steal, or kill but if my family lost all our food or medicine and I had to I would do what it takes...it would have to be a last resort after I tried to barter or ask for the item...how are u any less evil by letting ur family starve or suffer by u not doing ur job and doing what it takes to take care of them then stealing? Stealing seems to be the lesser of the two evils to me...


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## millertimedoneright

If ur daughter, son, mother, wife, etc were dying sick and u had a neighbor who had stockpile of antibiotics that ur family needed and they refused all offers and attempts to get some...all stores and locals had none...no other way to get the one thing that would keep ur loved one from suffering and dying...that scenario would turn any person with high morals into a desperate person...now some people say they would take the high road and not commit crimes such as steal or kill...u are putting the value of property over the value of ur loved one...in my group I have people with a variety of skills to help out but anyone of them would do what it takes for the group...I would take a group of loyal people who aren't afraid to get their hands dirty if absolutely necessary over a group who puts morals over the good of the group...


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## Tacitus

millertimedoneright said:


> ...that scenario would turn any person with high morals into a desperate person...


I never said it would be easy. I never said I'm not capable of tough things [like defending my family]. I only say that I hope I will be able to live by a code.


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## northstarprepper

Of course many people view death differently than I do. I am not afraid of dying and neither is my wife. Neither of us would allow our spouse to kill to prolong our lives. Of course we would try to trade, barter, buy, etc. as you would. We all know that some people will focus only on their own survival. They will do anything and take any measures they deem necessary to protect their supplies. Neither of us will take what is not ours without permission of the affected people. That is just who we are. You may believe otherwise, but if you knew me you would understand that my faith will not be compromised.


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## Bobbb

millertimedoneright said:


> how are u any less evil by letting ur family starve or suffer by u not doing ur job and doing what it takes to take care of them then stealing? Stealing seems to be the lesser of the two evils to me...


One family prepares in advance of disaster and stockpiles food. Your family doesn't have food so you steal their food. You save your family and you condemn the other family to take your place and starve in your place.

In the end, x number of people will die of starvation. If your family died of starvation this would have been because of your lack of preparation. The other family would have survived by the benefit of being prepared. When you steal their food you commit a proactive act - you take the consequences that should befall your family and you inflict them on an innocent family, a family which actually made an effort to avoid this fate and which harmed no one by preparing.

That's how your act is evil.

You're here arguing and defending looting when you should be doubling down on prepping in order to close off the road that leads to you having to loot.


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## hiwall

Having a discussion on morals is fine and I would think most on this forum have similar thoughts on right and wrong. I don't think it is wrong to have loyalty to your loved ones. And how many on this site are truly evil(OK maybe Sentry). Just the fact we are here shows that we are at least attempting to prepare. The OP said after TEOTWAWKI. This would imply many things. Total lawlessness? Half or more of the population already dead? Maybe 99% of the population already dead(still not going to touch anything that does not belong to you?). The end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it is just that, we do not know what it totally means. Except that it WOULD mean you would have to adapt to survive. If things are totally different then you have to be also(up to a point).


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## millertimedoneright

I prepare already...of course I will never have enough to satisfy me I have plenty to survive for a while...I was talking abt if a bad event happened such as if my house, sheds, etc was burned or if we were overrun...I'm talking worse case scenario...if my supplies and wildlife stay intact I can survive within my group long term...the percentage of people prepping is very small....chances are in the scenario I presented if they have a large storage of medication and food that they acquired it by looting themselves...most of y'all are ok with looting a big store or warehouse but are morally against taking from someone's personal stash...the way i see it is if things got bad enough my children and wife come before anyone...my neighbors or myself...if u loot from the local grocery store u are preventing one of ur neighbors from getting food for there family and they may starve...stealing is stealing one form is no better than the other...something are just easier to justify to ourselves in order to satisfy our conscience


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## TheLazyL

Caribou said:


> You come around the corner and see two guys fighting. One of them draws a gun. You have a legal concealed carry pistol. You draw your gun and shoot the man with the gun saving the life of the other man. If the man you shot was a criminal and the life you saved was an undercover cop you are a hero. If you shot the undercover cop trying to arrest a felon you are in big trouble. It is your responsibility to know the particulars in any situation before taking action.
> 
> It is your responsibility to know whether these goods are abandoned or not. The penalty for being wrong can be extreme. Good intensions don't always help when you presumptions are incorrect.


I agree. You nailed it 100%


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## TheLazyL

millertimedoneright said:


> Doing what it takes to take care of ur family in absolute necessity isn't a "survival plan"...I would never plan to rob, steal, or kill but if my family lost all our food or medicine and I had to I would do what it takes...it would have to be a last resort after I tried to barter or ask for the item...how are u any less evil by letting ur family starve or suffer by u not doing ur job and doing what it takes to take care of them then stealing? Stealing seems to be the lesser of the two evils to me...


So you "would do what it takes"?

You barter will me for "our food or medicine". I say no because my family is on it's last day of rations or medicine. You will come back later and "do what it takes" to take my family's "food or medicine"?

Thank you for saving your family by killing mine....


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## Tacitus

Tacitus said:


> I never said it would be easy. I never said I'm not capable of tough things [like defending my family]. I only say that I hope I will be able to live by a code.


I wanted to add to this:

*I am here, in this forum, and preparing, so that I do not become a desperate person, making desperate choices.*

Will I have to make desperate choices? Possibly. Am I man enough to face touch choices? Yes, I am. But, I prepare now to diminish the possibility of such tough decisions.

I _think_ I may have the moral fortitude to choose to starve to death myself to do the right thing. I admit, however, that it would _very difficult_ to watch my children die of starvation. And that is why I prep. I see their faces in adversity, and I buy more food so that I can avoid moral dilemmas like those posed in this thread.


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## stanb999

I don't choose to lie to myself about supposed moral codes. Morals are for moral society.

Read up on what and how starving people engage the world.

for starters
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Starvation_Experiment


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## TheLazyL

Why do you stop at a stop sign? 
A. Because you fear a cop may give you a ticket? 
B. Or because of consideration for the other Driver's lives you don't want to cause a possible injury?

Some Cowpokes don't have morals. It's their fear of retribution that allows them to be a member of society. 

Once that fear is gone, then they become their "real" selves.


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## TheLazyL

In earlier life I worked for a small Town for long hours with little pay. Married, 2 children, money was tight.

After Sunday evening church wife informed me that we was meeting some other families at the Dairy queen. I did a mental check on how much money was in my wallet. Wife doesn't have any money.

Wife orders a sundae with everything on it, I order 2 small fries for the children, nothing for me. After paying the bill I think I had 10 cents left.

Did I go out behind the Dairy Queen and mug someone so my children could have more? Nope.

If there was no human authority or repercussions (EOTWAWKI) for me would I steal from someone so my family could have more. Nope.

*Though the Code of the West was always unwritten, here is a "loose" list of some of the guidelines that I believe would work not only during EOTWAWKI but during today's life too.:*

Don't inquire into a person's past. Take the measure of a man for what he is today.

Never steal another man's horse. A horse thief pays with his life.

Defend yourself whenever necessary.

Look out for your own.

Remove your guns before sitting at the dining table.

Never order anything weaker than whiskey.

Don't make a threat without expecting dire consequences.

Never pass anyone on the trail without saying "Howdy".

When approaching someone from behind, give a loud greeting before you get within shooting range.

Don't wave at a man on a horse, as it might spook the horse. A nod is the proper greeting.

After you pass someone on the trail, don't look back at him. It implies you don't trust him.

Riding another man's horse without his permission is nearly as bad as making love to his wife. Never even bother another man's horse.

Always fill your whiskey glass to the brim.

A cowboy doesn't talk much; he saves his breath for breathing.

No matter how weary and hungry you are after a long day in the saddle, always tend to your horse's needs before your own, and get your horse some feed before you eat.

Cuss all you want, but only around men, horses and cows.

Complain about the cooking and you become the cook.

Always drink your whiskey with your gun hand, to show your friendly intentions.

Do not practice ingratitude.

A cowboy is pleasant even when out of sorts. Complaining is what quitters do, and cowboys hate quitters.

Always be courageous. Cowards aren't tolerated in any outfit worth its salt.

A cowboy always helps someone in need, even a stranger or an enemy.

Never try on another man's hat.

Be hospitable to strangers. Anyone who wanders in, including an enemy, is welcome at the dinner table. The same was true for riders who joined cowboys on the range.

Give your enemy a fighting chance.

Never wake another man by shaking or touching him, as he might wake suddenly and shoot you.

Real cowboys are modest. A braggert who is "all gurgle and no guts" is not tolerated.

Be there for a friend when he needs you.

Drinking on duty is grounds for instant dismissal and blacklisting.

A cowboy is loyal to his "brand," to his friends, and those he rides with.

Never shoot an unarmed or unwarned enemy. This was also known as "the rattlesnake code": always warn before you strike. However, if a man was being stalked, this could be ignored.

Never shoot a woman no matter what.

Consideration for others is central to the code, such as: Don't stir up dust around the chuckwagon, don't wake up the wrong man for herd duty, etc.

Respect the land and the environment by not smoking in hazardous fire areas, disfiguring rocks, trees, or other natural areas.

Honesty is absolute - your word is your bond, a handshake is more binding than a contract.

Live by the Golden Rule.


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## Padre

millertimedoneright said:


> In a true shtf situation the ones with the high morals will be the ones who die off...someone can talk all day long about how they won't "steal" but when the shtf all bets are off...I will do whatever it takes to keep my loves ones fed and safe and so will all of u...if it comes down to me or some idiot down the road who didn't secure his provisions guess what it will be me...don't get me wrong if someone with suitable skills or barter items needs something I can spare I will help them out...u can stock all the goods in the world but for all u know the day it goes down ur house may burn down and u and ur family will be left starving forcing u to "loot"


I don't agree. Morals keep us acting like humans not animals, personally I would prefer to die than to loose my humanity. THAT BEING SAID, Morals is a nuanced field. Just like with other aspects of life there is the REAL DANGER of normalcy bias in your moral outlook. We teach children (and often adults) a very generic moral code, that simplifies moral norms to help people live moral lives during a NORMAL times, but often the Biblical truth of a Commandment, or what we really mean by the natural moral law, is much more complex. For instance, taking something that is not yours. As I said in my previous post it is difficult to explain why something is yours, without the rule of law (titles), when you are not PHYSICALLY in possession of it (i.e. this is the illogic of paper gold certificates as a prep), and so if you come to an empty house with a can of pineapples in the cupboard is it immoral to take it to feed your starving family during SHTF? I would say no. Working on the premise that nothing REALLY belongs to you, taking that can does not place you at odds with your neighbor (who very well might be dead). As a technical definition stealing is unjustly depriving someone of something that is rightly theirs, the terms UNJUSTLY and RIGHTLY THEIRS being the key ideas. Thus in the case of taking the can, the preservation of life trumps the abstract idea of ownership, and taking it openly and peaceably when it appears abandoned is not unjust. In contrast if someone actually possesses an item, their need of it, and likelihood of violence if you take it, makes it justly theirs.

Of course the less controversial example, that followings the same logic, is the taking of human life. Murder is the free choice to take a persons life unjustly, in contrast to the just taking of human life to stop an unjust aggressor.

Morals DO NOT make you a sitting duck, so long as you really think about what the good to be done, and the evil to be avoided, truly is. Normalcy bias, needs to be combated, particularly in morals.


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## Padre

helicopter5472 said:


> So if the lic. plate on the truck says "government" it's up for grabs since we all paid for it...


Most definitely, governmental vehicles, if the government stops existing is only private property when actually possessed by someone. The same is true of a corporate property, which CAN NOT belong to a corporation without the rule of law.


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## TheLazyL

Why the Cowboy Code Is Not Frivolous

By Patrick Dorinson

Published February 10, 2011 FoxNews.com



"A man’s got to have a code, a creed to live by, no matter his job." -- John Wayne

The other day the Montana State Senate passed SB 216 sponsored by rancher and Senate President Jim Peterson. The bill is simple and direct and it doesn’t cost the taxpayers a dime. SB 216 would adopt The Code of the West from the book "Cowboy Ethics" and make it the official Montana Code. 

"Cowboy Ethics" was written by James Owen, an investment professional who after Enron and the other Wall Street scandals of a few years ago, decided it was time to take a good look at what we had become as a society and individuals. Like me he has a great deal of respect and admiration for the iconic American cowboy and the cowboy way of life.

He came up with his "Code of the West" which states some simple common sense principles that not just cowboys but all of us should try to live by.

The code includes admonitions such as "Live each day with courage," "Be tough, but fair," "Ride for the brand," and "Know where to draw the line."

Montana Governor Schweitzer has said he will veto any frivolous legislation. I guess he consider ethics "frivolous." He wants the legislature to focus on important things like jobs and a budget shortfall. He’s right that those things are extremely important. But the ethics and values deficit in this country is just as important as the fiscal and financial deficits.-- If life is just about dollars and cents then we are in bigger trouble than I thought.

Somewhere along the line we forgot these basic values and replaced them with a self-centered "grab all you can and forget the consequences" attitude and situational ethics.

Children cheat on tests and think it is not only okay but is a path to success.

In 2002 a study by Rutgers University found that cheating was rampant and in many cases accepted behavior among students. The director of the study said "I think kids today are looking to adults and society for a moral compass and when they see the behavior occurring there, they don't understand why they should be held to a higher standard." 

If that is how our young people see the world Lord help us.

One student said,” I actually think cheating is good. A person who has an entirely honest life can't succeed these days."

Another student in the survey said, "What's important is getting ahead. The better grades you have, the better school you get into, the better you're going to do in life. And if you learn to cut corners to do that, you're going to be saving yourself time and energy. In the real world, that's what's going to be going on. The better you do, that's what shows. It's not how moral you were in getting there."

She was 17 at the time and by my ciphering she would be around 26 now. With an attitude like that she should run for Congress.

And I can’t imagine things have improved since 2002 and my guess is that they have gotten worse.

Some politicians cheat on their wives. If a man will cheat on his wife what do you think he will do to the folks that elected him? 

Bad behavior in public life will more likely land you a book deal, a reality TV show or a spot on Oprah than the consternation of society. You want proof?

Disgraced former New York Governor Eliot Spitzer romped with hookers and he now has a television show on CNN.

By the way hookers are now called "escorts" and they have become a part of mainstream popular culture thanks to Spitzer and actor Charlie Sheen.

And while the collapse of the housing market has many causes one big one was that some unscrupulous lenders approved loans although they knew the borrowers could not afford them. By the way the borrowers also knew they couldn’t afford them as well and now some of them just walk away from their obligations. 

Now that's a great example for the kids, isn't it?

Some folks might say I’m “naïve” or “old fashioned” or that “times have changed and I need to get with it” whatever “it” is.

Maybe so.

But when a nation forgets the values that made the country strong and discards its ethical compass as “outdated” that nation could be at its end.

And if not the end you sure as Hell can see it from here.


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## Padre

swjohnsey said:


> So, would Jesus scavenge? Loot? Steal?


Lev 22:23 or Mk 2:23-27 would suggest that God has a little bit less legalist understanding of ownership.

Leviticus envisions that the edges of your harvest ought to be assumed to be rightfully for the poor and hungry and travelers, which explains why Jesus, travelling with fishermen (who obviously didn't own the fields), was picking the heads of wheat, which probably didn't "belong" to them according to your defintion:

'When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and for the foreigner residing among you. I am the LORD your God.'"

Likewise, Jesus the parable of the rich man in Lk 12 does not tell us not to prep, but to be detatched from our possessions because they will not bring us comfort after death and will be out of our control.

[Jesus] said to them: Take heed and beware of all covetousness; for a man's life doth not consist in the abundance of things which he possesseth.

And he spoke a similitude to them, saying: The land of a certain rich man brought forth plenty of fruits. And he thought within himself, saying: What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? And he said: This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and will build greater; and into them will I gather all things that are grown to me, and my goods.

And I will say to my soul: Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years take thy rest; eat, drink, make good cheer. But God said to him: Thou fool, this night do they require thy soul of thee: and whose shall those things be which thou hast provided?


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## Padre

> Honesty is absolute - your word is your bond, a handshake is more binding than a contract.
> 
> Live by the Golden Rule.


These two are all I need



TheLazyL said:


> Give your enemy a fighting chance.
> 
> Never shoot a woman no matter what.


These two reek of normalcy bias (circa 1850) and machismo.

While I am not shooting women who is going to take care of my family after one shoots me? Personally, I believe women deserve to be treated different [better] than men, and I do have a duty to challenge them to accept this added respect, BUT in our screwed up sexual climate when a woman chooses not to act womanly, they are an equal threat to me and mine.

I plan to give all my enemies a fighting chance, don't fight me, if you do, if you threaten me or mine, I am going to take you out with maximum malice. I owe no duty to an enemy that would trump my duty to my family.


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## TheLazyL

Padre said:


> ...BUT in our screwed up sexual climate when a woman chooses not to act womanly, they are an equal threat to me and mine...


Yep.

I was raised to never hit a lady.

I have an older sister, she was a Tom Boy.

Sister would stand on my toes so I couldn't run away and hit me. Well when I had my growth spurt, the next time she tried that she ended up with a softball sized bruise on her shoulder. Last time she tried that!

My conclusion is just because she is a female that doesn't automatically make her a lady.


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## Bobbb

hiwall said:


> The OP said after TEOTWAWKI.


After such an event civilization needs to be rebuilt. If the survivors are living apart from a moral code that works to build society and keep it together, that is, every man for himself, screw the other guy, I don't scare if my thieving and looting leads him and his family to starve, then the task of rebuilding civilization is gong to be much harder or even impossible.


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## millertimedoneright

Everyone acts like its going to be all nice and pleasant during a bad event like this...we won't be singing songs around a campfire at city hall...people will be starving and desperate...the majority will have no preps at all...I'm not saying I would take someone's last rations...I'm not that evil...but if someone looted the supplies like the majority on this site agree is ok then how is looting from the looter a moral dilemma...sounds like the pot calling the kettle black to me...every one of us has a line in the sand that we will not cross...how desperate of a circumstance and our own conscience is what will ultimately decide where it is for each of us...there is a big difference between stealing to get ur kids a little extra at Dairy Queen and stealing cuz they are truly starving or dying cuz they need antibiotics or food...I would sacrifice my life, my pride, and my conscience for my kids...


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## Bobbb

millertimedoneright said:


> I would sacrifice my life, my pride, and my conscience for my kids...


The impression I get from people is that you would be better served to not have to put yourself in that position at all for it's quite likely that the people who are prepared and want to rebuild society are going to be shooting down people like you. I'm not writing this as an attack against you so please don't take it that way.

If law and order goes out the window, then as looting becomes viable so too does putting down looters in order to preserve order, a harsh hand of justice will be taken up by many people.

I noted in an earlier thread where someone was advocating that people should strip street lights of their solar panels that in a PAW world we're not going to have the capability of manufacturing solar panels so that looter's action have basically put that street into darkness and that affects everyone living in the vicinity and makes night time travel that much more difficult. Rebuilding civilization is going to be hard enough but it will be easier if the survivors can start the rebuilding on the remnants of civilization which are still functional rather than having to start the rebuilding process by, figuratively, learning to make fire with two sticks.

Having bands of looters out there stripping everything away for their own benefit, a benefit which is usually less than suboptimal - pulling a critical part out of a larger machine gives the looter that one piece and effectively wrecks the larger, more useful machine. Looters are like a plague of locusts and as such they harm society.

So while you'll do anything to help your children remember that others will also do anything to preserve society and that means putting down looters.


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## millertimedoneright

The whole point of what i said was based on the premise of someone losing there provisions due to some unseen circumstances...I'm not gonna not prepare and then just run around and loot...I was saying if all my preps were destroyed and had no other choice...worst case scenario...I plan on being prepared and living off the land independent of any outside need...no plans or preparations can count for every scenario...u may have 10 yrs of supplies and everything every prepper envies and that could disappear in the blink of an eye...just cuz u prep and plan does not mean u will never be desperate...to me the main prep we can have is the state of mind it will take to survive...


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## Bobbb

millertimedoneright said:


> The whole point of what i said was based on the premise of someone losing there provisions due to some unseen circumstances...I'm not gonna not prepare and then just run around and loot


And this is why I believe that preppers try to form groups. It's insurance. If you're part of a group beforehand, then if something like this happens you turn to the group and everyone sacrifices a bit, willingly takes on a hardship, in order to save you and your family. That's a safer route to take than to go out looting and imposing that harm on innocent survivors.

Most importantly, when you turn to your group to help you out of a jam you don't put a target on your back and invite people to shoot you like you would if you turned to looting, so if the goal is to help your family, doing what it takes before disaster strikes to buy this "insurance" is going to help your family out more than you being shot dead for being a looter.


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## millertimedoneright

The last thing on my mind will be to preserve things to help with rebuilding society...it will be about taking care of me and mine right now and in the near future...the way I see it is those solar panels and other infrastructure items will be on someone elses house if I don't get them and I need them more than a neighborhood needs the streets lit up....according to some people's logic on here since they belong to the government and since I've paid enough taxes to cover my house in solar panels 10x over they belong to me anyway...what abt people using government entitlement programs to buy food? My taxes pay for it so that's mine too right? So when my daughter is starving when I go "loot" or "steal" I guess it will be morally ok if they are people who fall in this category...


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## millertimedoneright

I have no doubt that I could count on my small group to have my back but what happens if my entire group loses there provisions? Some people only have there wife and kids with no group...as u know not many people believe as we do therefore a lot of people don't have others to fall back on...like I said I pray I never have to do this type of stuff this is only a worst case scenario


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## Bobbb

millertimedoneright said:


> The last thing on my mind will be to preserve things to help with rebuilding society.


That's OK, that's the positive side of diversity. I'll certainly be trying to protect what remains of civilization's infrastructure and doing all that is in my power to stop you from harming all of us.

You pulling down electrical wiring, or cutting cables off of a bridge, or cutting a water main because you want a section of steel pipe or what have you makes the job of replacing what you've stolen incredibly difficult for the survivors.

It seems that there will be a conflict between looters and those who want to rebuild civilization.



> the way I see it is those solar panels and other infrastructure items will be on someone elses house if I don't get them and I need them more than a neighborhood needs the streets lit up.


That's OK too. The way I see it the neighborhood needs its infrastructure more than you need it and I'll protect what's in my neighborhood and that simply puts a crosshair on you. Everything you steal is going to come with a risk of you dying because the value of everything in a PAW is going to skyrocket because replacement of items lost to thieves is not going to be possible. So literally, you will be putting your life on the line for everything you steal.


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## Bobbb

millertimedoneright said:


> I have no doubt that I could count on my small group to have my back but what happens if my entire group loses there provisions? Some people only have there wife and kids with no group...as u know not many people believe as we do therefore a lot of people don't have others to fall back on...like I said I pray I never have to do this type of stuff this is only a worst case scenario


People who aren't invalids are useful. That's the whole basis of the economy. People create value and wealth from working. That's not going to become an obsolete concept in a PAW.

Feeding and sheltering a family isn't a terrible expensive undertaking when balanced against the work that they can do to help a community rebuild.

So, if you find yourself without food and shelter why not show a group that you're a valuable addition to their community and save your family by working instead of stealing. Farms need labor, ranches need labor, communities need different skill sets. Someone who knows how to fix a broken truck is valuable. Someone who can bake bread is valuable. Someone who can sew is valuable, because they all free up other people's labor to go to more productive uses.


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## BillS

millertimedoneright said:


> The whole point of what i said was based on the premise of someone losing there provisions due to some unseen circumstances...I'm not gonna not prepare and then just run around and loot...I was saying if all my preps were destroyed and had no other choice...worst case scenario...I plan on being prepared and living off the land independent of any outside need...no plans or preparations can count for every scenario...u may have 10 yrs of supplies and everything every prepper envies and that could disappear in the blink of an eye...just cuz u prep and plan does not mean u will never be desperate...to me the main prep we can have is the state of mind it will take to survive...


Once you say you'd do what it takes to feed your family then you're wasting your time making other moral distinctions. You'd rob people of their food and let them starve to death. I think we've learned all we need to know about you.


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## invision

Bobbb said:


> People who aren't invalids are useful. That's the whole basis of the economy. People create value and wealth from working. That's not going to become an obsolete concept in a PAW.
> 
> Feeding and sheltering a family isn't a terrible expensive undertaking when balanced against the work that they can do to help a community rebuild.
> 
> So, if you find yourself without food and shelter why not show a group that you're a valuable addition to their community and save your family by working instead of stealing. Farms need labor, ranches need labor, communities need different skill sets. Someone who knows how to fix a broken truck is valuable. Someone who can bake bread is valuable. Someone who can sew is valuable, because they all free up other people's labor to go to more productive uses.


Bobbb - I agree with you on trying to join a group... But let's say someone comes up to your location, unless they are an experienced healthcare professional, what are the likelihood of you taking that person into your group? Would you just say - hey I could always use another hired gun, or someone with a strong back, sure come on in and eat my food? Even if they were a healthcare professional, a lot of trust would need to be established first before I open my doors to them and let them in... Make sense?

And as a father of a 14 yr old girl, I would highly be distrustful in walking into any situation that could harm her.

Not for looting and stealing one bit, but would scavenge for anything to help my family....


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## millertimedoneright

Judge me all u want it doesn't bother me one bit...u think u have it all figured out but the whole point of my post was abt worst case scenario...y'all think everything will fall just perfect just cuz u have supplies stocked up...I have land to farm, seeds stored, 27,000 acres of forest land to hunt, hog traps, hunting dogs, at least a year of stored food, containers or water storage, shotguns, rifles, handguns, plenty of ammo, etc....I have no plans to "steal" anything...or harm anyone...but for y'all to say oh I would just let my child starve instead of doing what needs to be done is ignorant...u have not been in that situation so to judge me is pointless cuz I would bet my next paycheck anyone with children who actually cares abt them would do the same...to the guy talking abt infrastructure...it's funny how everyone is on my case abt stealing so my family can survive but ur talking abt murdering me for looting some government solar panels and no one is saying one word abt ur morals...it's obvious how screwed up the morals are of y'all people...murdering and looting are ok but what y'all call "stealing" isn't...y'all all shift the definitions around to fit ur situation so u can keep ur conscience intact...


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## helicopter5472

I agree with "millertimedoneright" If faced with gun fire I would respond and be deadly if the actions required it, If I found that all neighbors either died off or left the area I would consider using left behind tools with the thought that I would return them if owner would return. The reason for prepping is to keep your family safe, fed, and able to be self reliant, after SHTF without relying on others who haven't.


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## Bobbb

millertimedoneright said:


> it's funny how everyone is on my case abt stealing so my family can survive but ur talking abt murdering me for looting some government solar panels and no one is saying one word abt ur morals.


In a PAW world, if I'm walking down an abandoned street and I see a woman 500 ft in front of me and then a man rushes from a building, tackles her to the ground, rips off her clothes and starts to rape her and she is screaming for help, when I kill that man I'm not murdering him, I'm dealing out justice.

If you're stealing things that don't belong to you, then the age old tradition of "Looters will be shot" which is instituted by all levels of government and by civilians protected devastated areas, is not murder, it's a means of imposing order and control on an area.

The killing of looters is a RESPONSE to their illegal/immoral acts. They wouldn't be killed if they weren't stealing.

Murder would be a sniper targeting people at random who were just going about their business and not causing harm to anyone. Looters most clearly are not innocent folks, they're criminals against civilization at a time when civilization is hanging on by a thread.

Check Google Images for the phrase "Looters will be shot."


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## millertimedoneright

After an event like this "ownership" will be based on nothing more than who has the strength to protect things...in reality anything and everything is nothing more than a piece of the earth that we use and claim ownership based on money...we "own" nothing...saying u "own" something just shows how arrogant we as people are...if one of us preppers has plenty of supplies and food and we turn away starving people we are condemning them to death...I've heard many people on this site say they would turn everyone away so how is that more morally right than looting from someone else...if u refuse to share all ur supplies u are just as "evil" as someone who takes someone else's cuz either way u are "killing" someone in need


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## millertimedoneright

90% of the people on this site talk abt looting and scavenging as a secondary means of surviving...so shooting someone who is getting food and supplies for there family is morally right and not murder yet the "looters" are the evil ones...I'm sensing a damaged sense of right and wrong based on a twisted sense of reality


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## Bobbb

millertimedoneright said:


> After an event like this "ownership" will be based on nothing more than who has the strength to protect things.


That's what thugs say today, or at least that's how they act. A thug is divorced from a moral code, for a thug, might is right. If he wants something and he is stronger than you, then he feels it is his right to take what he wants from you. This is why we, society, work to isolate such anti-social people from society.

As someone earlier pointed out, some people are kept in check by their fear of the law and others are kept in check by their sense of morals. In the end, when the law is strong there is order in the land. Simply because the threat of efficient law enforcement has evaporated in a PAW doesn't imply that the moral codes which underpinned society have also evaporated and that people are going to cast off their morality and become immoral brutes. You're still going to have to contend with people who view looting and thievery as wrong, worthy of punishment and a cancer to good order in whatever society remains.



> I've heard many people on this site say they would turn everyone away so how is that more morally right than looting from someone else...if u refuse to share all ur supplies u are just as "evil" as someone who takes someone else's cuz either way u are "killing" someone in need


No, you can't make that equivalence. The bystanders in the UK beheading attack who didn't intervene to save the life of the soldier who had his head hacked off are not equally as guilty of murder as the two Muslims who hacked the soldier's head off.

When you steal another family's food and condemn them to starvation so that you can save the life of your family, you, like the two Muslims, are making a choice to commit an evil act. The family which turns away the stragglers at their doorstep are not making a proactive choice, they like the bystanders, have a situation thrust upon them.


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## Bobbb

millertimedoneright said:


> 90% of the people on this site talk abt looting and scavenging as a secondary means of surviving...so shooting someone who is getting food and supplies for there family is morally right and not murder yet the "looters" are the evil ones...I'm sensing a damaged sense of right and wrong based on a twisted sense of reality


Shooting looters is an age-old standard. Most people understand the necessity.

The military understands:










Neighborhood Watch understands:










The Mayor of San Francisco during the Great Earthquake understood:










The Governor of Louisiana understood:

The historic jazz city has fallen prey to armed looters since Katrina tore through and it now more closely resembles Haiti or another Third World trouble spot in a refugee crisis than one of America's most popular vacation centres.

Louisiana Governor* Kathleen Blanco warned rioters and looters late on Thursday that National Guard troops were under her orders to "shoot and kill"* if needed to restore order.

"These troops are battle-tested. They have M-16s and are locked and loaded," she said. "These troops know how to shoot and kill and I expect they will."​


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## northstarprepper

"If one of us preppers has plenty of supplies and food and we turn away starving people we are condemning them to death...I've heard many people on this site say they would turn everyone away so how is that more morally right than looting from someone else...if u refuse to share all ur supplies u are just as "evil" as someone who takes someone else's cuz either way u are "killing" someone in need."

You are absolutely right with this point Millertime. That is why many of us refuse to go into the hardcore military approach to prepping. Yes self defence is allowed, but even shooting looters is a statement that we are in a WROL situation. I personally feel that even the life of some sheeple looter has value until he/she proves they are a threat to the lives of others. People can change and I do not want to take a life of a person who may yet choose Christ (and eternal life), unless given no other choice. That is the moral code I will adhere to, in spite of what others may think is wise. I will live and die as a Christian man first. Nothing matters more to me than that...not even life itself.


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## millertimedoneright

Justify it however u want the ending is the same...innocent people dying cuz of ur actions...u just see one way as morally right but in the end by turning people away u are ultimately killing them no less than me looting


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## millertimedoneright

Like I said no one is in a worst case scenario to judge...I pray that day never comes and I prep to do everything in my power to prevent me from becoming desperate...I'm still stuck on the person saying they would shoot me for taking government property and then saying I'm the one who is morally wrong...gotta love that...like I said judge me if u want doesn't bother me I'm just admitting what no one else on here will


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## Bobbb

millertimedoneright said:


> Justify it however u want the ending is the same...*innocent* people dying cuz of ur actions


Innocent people? I think you need to look up the definition of the word innocent. It does not mean "do what you like and not be held accountable for your actions."

When you CHOOSE to steal someone else's food and condemn them to death in place of yourself, then you are not an innocent who is being unjustly punished.



> ...u just see one way as morally right but in the end by turning people away u are ultimately killing them no less than me looting.


You mean like a surgeon who loses a patient on an operating table has killed the patient just like a criminal hacking a person to pieces kills a person? Is that what you mean? That all that counts is that the person has died?

If we go by your standard of logic, then every time Child Hunger USA calls you soliciting money to feed starving African children and you refuse to donate, you've just killed a child. Is that what you mean?


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## hiwall

None of us really know how we will act when we get in a situation like what we are discussing here. We all may do things that don't look good in the light of day. Or we may all act like gentlemen. At this point all we can do is hope we will act in a civilized way.


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## millertimedoneright

A surgeon is trying to save someone's life unlike the person that turns the starving family away...and I was talking abt the person taking solar panels off street lights being murdered as innocent since he isn't hurting anyone by his actions not someone stealing someone's food...if someone walking down the road sees ur berry bushes by ur mail box and picks a few for his kids is he worthy of being murdered also? He is stealing ur food after all...


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## millertimedoneright

By not giving ur food away to others in need u are choosing ur family over everyone else's...so why is it so hard for people to understand that I will always choose my family and always put them first


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## Magus

swjohnsey said:


> So, would Jesus scavenge? Loot? Steal?


Yes, in fact he cursed a fig tree for being bare when he got there.


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## millertimedoneright

The point of all this is that every one of us have different levels we would go thru for our own and our family's survival...we must prepare the best we can as to do our best to prevent us from ever becoming desperate and starving...everyone of us have different lines we would cross and we never know where that line is until we are truly tested...


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## BillS

millertimedoneright said:


> After an event like this "ownership" will be based on nothing more than who has the strength to protect things...in reality anything and everything is nothing more than a piece of the earth that we use and claim ownership based on money...we "own" nothing...saying u "own" something just shows how arrogant we as people are...if one of us preppers has plenty of supplies and food and we turn away starving people we are condemning them to death...I've heard many people on this site say they would turn everyone away so how is that more morally right than looting from someone else...if u refuse to share all ur supplies u are just as "evil" as someone who takes someone else's cuz either way u are "killing" someone in need


That's some fancy moral footwork there. If I keep _my_ food for _me_ and _my family_ I'm just as bad as those who steal food form others? No, that's not the least bit true.

I'm sufficiently prepared to provide for my family for a year. I can't feed the starving masses. Sure, I could give away all my food and we could all starve together but that doesn't make any sense. We have enough resources that we could take the chance on taking in one more adult at some point. I don't feel morally obligated to give away my food to the unprepared if it jeopardizes the survival of me and my family. It reminds me of the parable of the wise and foolish virgins.

(Mat 25:6-9 NIV) "At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!' {7} "Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. {8} The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.' {9} "'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'


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## Tacitus

> So, would Jesus scavenge? Loot? Steal?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, in fact he cursed a fig tree for being bare when he got there.
Click to expand...

Like us, the fig tree didn't know when He was coming.

The fig tree was not prepared for His coming.

Hopefully we will be.

[Sorry. Couldn't help myself apparently. That passage always troubled me. I finally decided it was a metaphor for being prepared.]


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## bahramthered

I made it through about 5 pages of this but I'm going to offer my opinion;

I think the difference between looting and scavenging is what your taking and when. 

I think looting is taking anything not tied directly to your survival, preferably immediate. I'll give you an exception in long term disaster if you take a winter coat in summer, but still it must be direct survival stuff. 

Scavenging is collecting resources that are available without conflict. Wally world says come by and grab some stuff I'll do that even if I have enough food for the moment (but I'd keep a record and try to repay them) just because it's a resource and letting them slip from your hands is always stupid. Food gets a little low I'll search some houses that look like the people are gone. 

Now this distinction leaves one last category. Robbery. Taking what you know others have by force. For either survival or just to have it. I think it should always be wrong, but if it's me or them I know I'm going to say me. That said it's always a high risk activity that anyone smart would prefer to avoid.


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## tsrwivey

millertimedoneright said:


> ..if one of us preppers has plenty of supplies and food and we turn away starving people we are condemning them to death...I've heard many people on this site say they would turn everyone away so how is that more morally right than looting from someone else...if u refuse to share all ur supplies u are just as "evil" as someone who takes someone else's cuz either way u are "killing" someone in need


How can you know you have "plenty of supplies & food"? You could know that in a short term, localized disaster when help is on the way but not in a widespread, long term disaster.

My turning away starving people is not me condemning them to death, their choice to not prepare condemned them to death. They chose to gamble & lost. We have tried to store enough to be charitable but we don't have an infinite supply. My responsibility to take care of my family comes first, it would be morally wrong for me to let my family starve in order to feed someone else. I hope we have enough to help others live, I would hate to not be able to help, but we may be in a position where we have to make that choice. I'm just awful attached to those angels I met in the labor & delivery room.  How that can be equated to anything morally close to looting is beyond me.


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## helicopter5472

Well I think this has been a real good post and I have learned two things. First, I know the people to stay clear from and the ones I could say hi without being shot.  Second, I think everyone here really wouldn't rob anyone, they would take items left behind or discarded and many would take notes to re-pay or return them if the owner returns. I think we all would do everything we could to help others without short sheeting ourselves and family. I think we all would defend ourselves from anyone trying to take our supplies or harming our families and killing someone only as a last resort. If down the road things finally mello out, we would be right there pitching in to rebuild, and plant for others. So I think that makes us all pretty Human, but with exceptional leadership skills, cause after all we're preppers


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## millertimedoneright

Reading others posts make me feel the need to clarify my statements...I prepare to the best of my ability...I would always scavenge around for whatever I could without harming anyone(which one guy on here would prolly shoot me for this)...I have been taught to hunt, trap, farm, and live off the land my whole life...the chances of me and my family going without food and supplies are slim...my whole statement was about worst case scenario....everyone wants to play morals but the fact is no one here has faced true starvation and seen or felt the devastation it plays on ur mind...u are not urself...people truly lose their minds when they are starved that's why I feel that a lot of people who run me down for my opinions would prolly do the same as I would in that situation...I'm just admitting what no one else will...the fact is I don't know what I would do in that situation and neither do anyone else...none of us will know unless we are faced with it...


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## Bobbb

millertimedoneright said:


> I'm just admitting what no one else will...the fact is I don't know what I would do in that situation and neither do anyone else...none of us will know unless we are faced with it...


People die for principles all the time. There are plenty of folks who join the military because of love of country and die for their nation. There are men who die to protect their women in theater shootings. People have died in the past to protect art objects from being looted. Librarians of old died trying to protect their books from riotous hordes. People rush into burning buildings to save a person. People rush into brawls in order to save a person.

When much of society has been destroyed I can well see people shooting looters in order to preserve what little of society's infrastructure is left standing because once it's gone it'll be a long, long time until it can be replaced.

Fighting to protect what remains of civilization in a post-apocalyptic world is no different than fighting to protect your nation in a time of war. In both cases you're fighting for something greater than yourself. Are there any soldiers who find it in their own self-interest to storm the enemy's machine gun nest or to jump on a live grenade when they could just walk away and go home and be safe?


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## millertimedoneright

I agree with that except soldiers are trained killers and they are brave and selfless individuals to start with...they live and die for each other...they are brothers who would die or kill for each other...I have nothing but the utmost respect for soldiers but under extreme stress even soldiers can crack and kill many innocent people for no reason...the stress on a starving mind of someone who has starving kids can't never be equalled...everyone even the strongest of us have a breaking point...I know me starving and my family starving would be mine...I can admit my weaknesses


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## millertimedoneright

In the worst case scenario I described it will be everyone for themselves...I believe we will all have hope for rebuilding until it gets to the point that the chaos gets to much to safely leave ur home...any human being will only be able to look at those solar panels for so long before they say why in the hell am I sitting in the dark and sweating...or hey I can power my water pump and have running water...at some point we may all give up on returning to civilization and look towards our own comfort...all those solar panels were paid for with my tax dollars anyway...the way I see it is if I don't get them then some one else will anyways so why shouldn't it be me with them...looters will steal everything u might as well get used to it...


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## Tacitus

millertimedoneright, no offense man, but use this more often:


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## stanb999

Bobbb said:


> People die for principles all the time. There are plenty of folks who join the military because of love of country and die for their nation. There are men who die to protect their women in theater shootings. People have died in the past to protect art objects from being looted. Librarians of old died trying to protect their books from riotous hordes. People rush into burning buildings to save a person. People rush into brawls in order to save a person.
> 
> When much of society has been destroyed I can well see people shooting looters in order to preserve what little of society's infrastructure is left standing because once it's gone it'll be a long, long time until it can be replaced.
> 
> Fighting to protect what remains of civilization in a post-apocalyptic world is no different than fighting to protect your nation in a time of war. In both cases you're fighting for something greater than yourself. Are there any soldiers who find it in their own self-interest to storm the enemy's machine gun nest or to jump on a live grenade when they could just walk away and go home and be safe?


Solar panels...

What if the "looter" was from the state and your town and all in it are leveled for your illegal action?

What if the "looter" needs the power for a regional hospital he is building. He is a surgeon after all. At least he was.

What if they are salvagers... With lots of arms. As soon as you shoot. Your town is scheduled to be burned to the ground. Your men/boys are lined up and shot. Your women sold into slavery. This one sounds like just treatment from the old testament.


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## swjohnsey

So the loot . . . salvagers are Israelites?


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## stanb999

swjohnsey said:


> So the loot . . . salvagers are Israelites?


I have seen even stranger things... LoL


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## LongRider

Entertaining post This line made me laugh.



TheLazyL said:


> Box car full of Twinkies! They will not last long in this heat, some have already spoiled but there is plenty left to fill my stomach.


Must not be genuine Hostess Twinkies, I'd consume with caution. I believe that some Hostess Twinkies were found in the Sahara Desert under King Tuk N Rucks tomb that according to carbon dating was buried in 703 B.C. that were as fresh as the day they were made. Genuine Hostess Twinkies never spoil


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