# heat



## k10macosta (Nov 6, 2012)

I live on the edge of the appalachians in PA. I heat our house with coal mainly. I have about 5 tons of coal all the time it never goes below 4 tons. I also have 15 cord of wood on hand at all times, Covered and dry. I live on 70 acres of land and 60 acres of it is woods. During not so cold winter i use about 1 ton of coal. Very cold about 2 tons. No electric heaters. No gas. No oil. Only a blower hooked up to the duct system. But it is almost never used. I was wondering what will you guys who have electric gas and oil heat do if the gas stops flowing and your oil runs dry?


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Many will likely die, of course. Down here I will put on an extra blanket.


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

k10macosta said:


> I live on the edge of the appalachians in PA. I heat our house with coal mainly. I have about 5 tons of coal all the time it never goes below 4 tons. I also have 15 cord of wood on hand at all times, Covered and dry. I live on 70 acres of land and 60 acres of it is woods. During not so cold winter i use about 1 ton of coal. Very cold about 2 tons. No electric heaters. No gas. No oil. Only a blower hooked up to the duct system. But it is almost never used. I was wondering what will you guys who have electric gas and oil heat do if the gas stops flowing and your oil runs dry?


Sounds like you are well prepared here.

I am building a supply of LP gas. For cooking, and heating if needed.

As well we have purchased a wood stove. It isn't installed yet but that could be done in short order if the need arises. I have some wood stocked but coal interests me. I know it can be purchased a ways into IL form here. Not sure about locally.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

Are you sure you are on the right forum to ask this question?

This is a preppers forum and most of the contributors have alternate heat or have already addressed this question.

I have virgin woods and alternate wood heat. My main heat source is electric and my average bill is $180 a month in the winter. I have a very well insulated house with all the windows on the south side. Right now I'm sitting in the sun and baking and the temp outside is 20 degrees. On and average sunny winter day my central heat never comes on, in fact, I have had to crack a window to cool it down inside the house.

k10macosta

Your assumption that we will run out of oil is a bad one. What will happen is the price of oil will increase till the average person can not afford it. Right now it does not look like the next 10-20 years will be a problem with oil since our usage has gone down and there are no signs that it will start growing again and since the US will be the largest producer of oil in the next 5 years the price should be stable.

You never said where you get your coal? do you just dig it up on your property. Have you considered all the time and effort that you put in to maintaining your coal and wood stocks and feeding your furnace. That time could be used for more worthwhile investments. What would you do if you had a forest fire and lost your woods and where you get your coal had a fire that was unstoppable like a few other places in PA?

It's dangerous to think you have a fool proof plan.


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## k10macosta (Nov 6, 2012)

PackerBacker said:


> Sounds like you are well prepared here.
> 
> I am building a supply of LP gas. For cooking, and heating if needed.
> 
> As well we have purchased a wood stove. It isn't installed yet but that could be done in short order if the need arises. I have some wood stocked but coal interests me. I know it can be purchased a ways into IL form here. Not sure about locally.


Wood is gonna burn quicker and hotter but coal last long and burns not as hot. Believe me you can get an extremely hot fire with coal but its not needed. You get a shit load of ashes. Coal is very available in south western pa. Im in the middle of all the coal mines. Both my paps were coal miners. My dad works in a coke mill. So coal is everywhere. Most places its about $70 a ton for good washed bituminous. Power plant coal is $35 a ton. Most places if you buy more than 5 tons it is $45 a ton for good coal. If SHTF then coal will run out quickly but il have wood. There are old coal mines within walking distance of my house by its not practical to mine coal myself.


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

It's very safe to assume that oil will dry up when the SHTF.


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## Outpost (Nov 26, 2012)

k10macosta said:


> I was wondering what will you guys who have electric gas and oil heat do if the gas stops flowing and your oil runs dry?


We live in a double-wide on a slab on about 8 1/2 acres. About 6 acres is wooded. One would think that we'd already heat with wood. Unfortunately, our particular insurance company frowns heavily on wood-stoves in "mobile homes". Obviously, it's a "goch'a" based on the biases of old construction (the place is actually built according to normal code and standards, it's just on a big-assed metal frame), but that's just the way it is and we have to deal with it.

For now, we stock up on kerosene (outside oil tanks in NH) and gasoline for the generator.

By the time the supply runs out for the generator, there *WILL* be a wood stove in place (following the rules will be the least of our problems, at that point). I'm also considering building a rocket mass heater in the livingroom. I _*should*_ be able to construct it in a wooden frame. Whether a standard wood stove, or a rocket mass heater, rather than going through a wall or the roof, I'll simply remove the top panes of glass from a window and pipe the exhaust through that. (obviously, I'll prefab a nicely fitting pass-through to replace the glass).

This year, I've got the wife convinced to let me "play" with some more passive-solar. 

...and by the way...

I think that time grows nigh,


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## k10macosta (Nov 6, 2012)

Tweto said:


> Are you sure you are on the right forum to ask this question?
> 
> This is a preppers forum and most of the contributors have alternate heat or have already addressed this question.
> 
> ...


Im not saying oil is going to run out. I mean if SHTF situation oil is going to get scarce. Electricity will be turned off. I will run out of coal quickly and will have to use all wood. There will always be wood around. There will be no forest fire unless extreme drought hits. Most of the ground stays wet because of alot of springs and decent rainfall. Most of the woods have very little ground cover and very thin under brush. Most of it is virgin wood. The only non-virgin wood is only where my family has taken in. Its been in my family since the civil war.


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## k10macosta (Nov 6, 2012)

Outpost said:


> We live in a double-wide on a slab on about 8 1/2 acres. About 6 acres is wooded. One would think that we'd already heat with wood. Unfortunately, our particular insurance company frowns heavily on wood-stoves in "mobile homes". Obviously, it's a "goch'a" based on the biases of old construction (the place is actually built according to normal code and standards, it's just on a big-assed metal frame), but that's just the way it is and we have to deal with it.
> 
> For now, we stock up on kerosene (outside oil tanks in NH) and gasoline for the generator.
> 
> ...


Have you ever considered outdoor wood burners? Is it allowed?


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## pawpaw (Dec 21, 2011)

"Are you sure you're on the right forum to ask this question?"
Yeah, he is. Living in an apartment, this issue has been the hardest for me to address. No real storage area for any heating fuel types except kerosene. It's easy to picture why wood, coal, or propane are not open to me. I simply can't be the only one here with similar limitations who may glean something from this thread.


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## Friknnewguy (Jun 30, 2012)

For me I keep my oil tank full at all times . One tank always lasts longer than just the winter . In an extreme SHTF situation I would move on to using the fireplace . I don't use the fireplace now , but my chimney is clean and it's ready if needed . I also stock propane for cooking or additional heat source .


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

pawpaw said:


> "Are you sure you're on the right forum to ask this question?"
> Yeah, he is. Living in an apartment, this issue has been the hardest for me to address. No real storage area for any heating fuel types except kerosene. It's easy to picture why wood, coal, or propane are not open to me. I simply can't be the only one here with similar limitations who may glean something from this thread.


Would a turkey fryer burner and a LP tank work for you in a pinch?


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## BlacksmithKevin (Jan 15, 2013)

PackerBacker said:


> Would a turkey fryer burner and a LP tank work for you in a pinch?


A turkey fryer burner will work. You need to use it outside to prevent co2 and co buildup if used indoors. The burners generally used are not that fuel efficient. Better burners can be found online.


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

BlacksmithKevin said:


> A turkey fryer burner will work. You need to use it outside to prevent co2 and co buildup if used indoors. The burners generally used are not that fuel efficient. Better burners can be found online.


Obviously you have to have the room vented some.

I like the fact that it kills two birds with one stone.


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## kejmack (May 17, 2011)

k10macosta said:


> Have you ever considered outdoor wood burners? Is it allowed?


One of my sisters has been using an outdoor furnace for years and absolutely loves it!


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## k10macosta (Nov 6, 2012)

kejmack said:


> One of my sisters has been using an outdoor furnace for years and absolutely loves it!


I've only ever heard good things about them the look pretty neat. If you don't want soot and risk of fire in your house they are perfect.


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## k10macosta (Nov 6, 2012)

pawpaw said:


> "Are you sure you're on the right forum to ask this question?"
> Yeah, he is. Living in an apartment, this issue has been the hardest for me to address. No real storage area for any heating fuel types except kerosene. It's easy to picture why wood, coal, or propane are not open to me. I simply can't be the only one here with similar limitations who may glean something from this thread.


What about a small unvented kerosene heater. It wouldn't heat the apartment. It would heat a room and take the chill off the whole thing. Enough to wear a sweatshirt. Lol. Store kerosene in jugs in a closet or a 5 gallon kerosene can in every closet in the place. So its not all in one place taking up room


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## vickers (Jan 16, 2013)

I am also very concerned about heat when SHTF. We live in a development so we do not have much land (fenced in back yard, thats about it). Storing wood is a possibility, but I have yet to find a good portable indoor wood burning heater. Possible looking at the Mr. Buddy Heaters that take the small propane tanks (refilling them from the 20lb using the adapter). I know this will not last long and wood would be the best opion. Only portable wood one I could find is this one, but I will also have to find a way to vent it outside if I use in my home. http://www.amazon.com/STOVE-2346-Portable-Military-Camping-Hunting/dp/B002XNWC8A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1358717508&sr=8-1&keywords=portable+wood+heater


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## seanallen (Nov 13, 2012)

I live in an older mobile home (1989). Its in decent shape. Built an addition and back porch on it. If SHTF and power goes out, i have a huge wood burning heater ready to install in LR. Vent out existing window. Gotta build a heat exchanger for better efficiency. Thing is, ive gotta set it on a durarock base, sheath the wall behind and ceiling above it w durarock. I have enough virgin timber on the place to see my family through about 7 years of coldass winters. Living here on the Gulf Coast that aint a big problem. The problem comes in with summer. It gets over 100 F and 98% humidity here a LOT! gonna miss that AC!


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## cnsper (Sep 20, 2012)

vickersja said:


> I am also very concerned about heat when SHTF. We live in a development so we do not have much land (fenced in back yard, thats about it). Storing wood is a possibility, but I have yet to find a good portable indoor wood burning heater. Possible looking at the Mr. Buddy Heaters that take the small propane tanks (refilling them from the 20lb using the adapter). I know this will not last long and wood would be the best opion. Only portable wood one I could find is this one, but I will also have to find a way to vent it outside if I use in my home. http://www.amazon.com/STOVE-2346-Portable-Military-Camping-Hunting/dp/B002XNWC8A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1358717508&sr=8-1&keywords=portable+wood+heater


Look for wall tent stoves they are much larger and portable.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

k10macosta said:


> What about a small unvented kerosene heater. It wouldn't heat the apartment. It would heat a room and take the chill off the whole thing. Enough to wear a sweatshirt. Lol. Store kerosene in jugs in a closet or a 5 gallon kerosene can in every closet in the place. So its not all in one place taking up room


Can you say Carbon Monoxide? Better to use propane heaters!


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

From the day I started my heating business I recommended that my customers have two heating systems. Everything mechanical breaks so be prepared. It is better if one system can work without electricity and best if one system is wood fired. This is in a region where wood is not in abundance and electrical outage is common. 

It is about fifty miles to the nearest trees worth cutting and about twice that to find trees of any size. Pallets are available because the freight costs to return them means most are given away. That won't heat the entire community. 

At least two years worth of coal plus firewood sounds excellent. With your resources I would expect that even a modest warning would allow you to stock up on coal. I am planning to move. My new home will be close to a coal mine. I plan to have a coal/wood fired boiler in my home along with either an oil or natural gas fired boiler. I have an efficient boiler in stock that will burn on oil/propane/natural gas depending on the burner I install. I expect to have another heat source as well but until I have the house picked out no plans can be finalized.


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## pawpaw (Dec 21, 2011)

Tweto said:


> Can you say Carbon Monoxide? Better to use propane heaters!


I actually have two carbon monoxide detectors-in case I ever need the kerosene heater, both stored in 'preps'. 
What's that rule? One is none, and two is one?


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## cnsper (Sep 20, 2012)

We did not have a problem with carbon monoxide until they started sealing homes with plastic so the air could not be exchanged.

It may be more energy efficient but for everything that you do there is a trade off in another direction. Did you ever hear of mold in homes before they started wrapping them? I sure did not.


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## k10macosta (Nov 6, 2012)

Tweto said:


> Can you say Carbon Monoxide? Better to use propane heaters!


Can you say unvented. It is an "unvented" kerosene heater. It is very efficient. It makes almost complete combustion. A complete combustion leaves behind only carbon dioxide and water vapor.


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## Outpost (Nov 26, 2012)

k10macosta said:


> Have you ever considered outdoor wood burners? Is it allowed?


I actually have considered it, but the ones I've seen require electricity. I figure that if I have electricity, I'll also have oil. Then I 'll just run the regular heater.

Not to say that I don't *REALLY LIKE* those outdoor burning plants, if I'm thinking the same ones you are. I like them a *LOT!* I've seen them installed outside mom-and-pop convenience stores here locally and been told they had reduced their heating bill by 75%, and the same with hot water!

What I'm thinking of is more of a simple, but long-term sustainable form of keeping our @$$es from freezing off!

-


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## k10macosta (Nov 6, 2012)

What we all need is a small nuclear reactor. Lol. It last for 30 years. Never needs stoked or tree cut down. But the problem is some idiot would leave it in a creek or river or some shit and kill a million people.


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## Outpost (Nov 26, 2012)

k10macosta said:


> What we all need is a small nuclear reactor. Lol. It last for 30 years. Never needs stoked or tree cut down. But the problem is some idiot would leave it in a creek or river or some shit and kill a million people.


ROTFLMAO!

:rofl:


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

k10macosta said:


> Can you say unvented. It is an "unvented" kerosene heater. It is very efficient. It makes almost complete combustion. A complete combustion leaves behind only carbon dioxide and water vapor.


Any open flame expels CO into the room. The problem comes when places get tighter. An ambulance squad I worked on would get CO calls every year and they were usually dead. The open flame heater of whatever type would work fine for months. As the weather turned colder people would close up their living space. Without adequate air exchange the heater would eat up the O2 in the room. As the O2 diminished the combustion became incomplete and increasing amounts of CO would be released.

Any heat source has risks that go along with usage. Heat sources with flames have a risk of CO poisoning. Unvented heaters have an increased risk of CO poisoning and fire from being knocked over.

I have been on those runs. Save some ambulance crew an unpleasant run. At the very least get a couple CO detectors. Be careful, be aware of risks so you can protect yourself.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

It is not true that all flames produce CO, I guess for safety sake you could assume that they do. 
Many small heaters come with a low oxygen shutoff, this is a good feature but again should not be counted on. 
I think everyone should have a co monitor in their house for safety sake.


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## sailaway (Mar 12, 2009)

If I loose my heat source I will go into survival mode and set my tenet stove up in my apartment kitchen and run the stove pipe out the window. I will center my living in that 1 room until things get better. My stove has a S.S. Water Jacket on it for boiling water and I am set up to cook on it and use candles for light. I guess I'll be turning the clock back 200 years and slowing down a little.


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## vickers (Jan 16, 2013)

cnsper said:


> Look for wall tent stoves they are much larger and portable.


awesome. looks perfect. do you happen to have a link for those? Thanks.


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## cnsper (Sep 20, 2012)

Just do a search for "wall tent stove" and you will find all kinds of places to buy them.


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## kejmack (May 17, 2011)

k10macosta said:


> Can you say unvented. It is an "unvented" kerosene heater. It is very efficient. It makes almost complete combustion. A complete combustion leaves behind only carbon dioxide and water vapor.


I used one for years when I lived in Virginia. Worked wonderfully!


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

Cowboy, no flame that I have ever tested had zero CO. I have the equipment to test combustion gasses. Many times the combustion produces extremely low CO, yes even low enough to exhaust into a living space but never have I seen zero. There is no such thing as perfect combustion, it does not exist in the wild. 

There are generally accepted "safe" levels of CO though the only universally accepted level is zero. Everything from a birthday candle on up produces CO the trick is to keep the quantity down to a minimal level. I keep two CO detectors, one is the standard hardware store variety and the other has a digital readout.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

There is always some carbon monoxide present in the air outside naturally so hopefully that is still regarded as safe
Devices that burn catalytic-ally typically produce much less CO but they still use a lot of oxygen, hence the oxygen sensor. When the oxygen levels get low much more CO is produced.


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## k10macosta (Nov 6, 2012)

Here is my big red beauty. She is simple but does outstanding


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## AuroraHawk (Sep 12, 2012)

When I was heating with wood I had one of these in the dining room:










with triple-wall going to one of these:










and more triple-wall going to the chimney.

This stove pipe heat reclaimer was aimed into the living room and circulated the heat from the stack around the entire first floor of our house. We heated with this system until I got tired of the mess in the house and I told my almost ex-husband that if he wanted to heat with wood he could do all of the hauling, burning, and cleaning.


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## Ezmerelda (Oct 17, 2010)

AuroraHawk said:


> We heated with this system until I got tired of the mess in the house and I told my almost ex-husband that if he wanted to heat with wood he could do all of the hauling, burning, and cleaning.


I think that if I had to choose between cleanliness and warmth, I'd have to go with warmth. We're talking bad times here - spotty electric service, gas and oil shortages, etc.

This topic weighs heavily on me, because our heat is natural gas with an electric fan, or one natural gas vent less fireplace.

The way our house is built, there is no good place to add a wood burning anything. This is why I stock up on blankets, afghans, long handled underwear, sweat suits, etc. As long as the gas runs in the lines, we can heat one room of our house. After that, I guess we'll risk pulling in the garage heater (propane), which is only good so long as the propane lasts.


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