# How to buff a dark bore.



## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

EXAMPLE:

British 303, bore dark as mud but not rusted.bought for 50$ at a flea market.

Materials:
One piece steel cleaning rod.
WD-40.
2 45 cal bore brushes.
1 30 cal bore brush.
Electric drill.
medium grit valve grinding compound or cheapo plain tooth paste.
Starting fluid if you had to use the tooth paste.
bore patches.

[1]
Remove the wood and any small parts that might fall off.

[2]
Soak the bore in WD-40 using a spent shell casing wrapped lightly in Teflon tape to plug the chamber.go watch a couple of movies.

[3]
Drain the WD-40 and place the cleaning rod in the drill with the 45 cal brush installed.whiz it through the bore from the chamber end a few times to get out the biggest hunks of crud.

[4]
Hose it out with the starting fluid and check the chamber and bore.you might get lucky and it will be shootable at this point. But lets assume not.

[5]
Put a fresh 45 brush in the rod and soak it with the valve grinding compound or tooth paste.slowly,using a medium speed in the drill,work it through from chamber to muzzle for about an hour.

[6]
Hose it out with the starting fluid and check the bore and chamber for pits.

[7]
Swab bore with light oil using the 30 cal brush,then run a patch down it.

go shoot it!


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

Sounds good ... Do you know how to polish a chamber? (Got a 30/06 that needs it!)


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*The fastest way*

Remove the bullet from a cartridge.

Plug the open end of the cartridge case with soap.

Put the blank round into the chamber.

With barrel upright pour in a small handfull of sand.

Point weapon in a safe direction , outside and fire the round.

Clean weapon normally and you are done.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

mosquitomountainman said:


> Sounds good ... Do you know how to polish a chamber? (Got a 30/06 that needs it!)


Same way as with the full bore treatment.I fixed a bud's 03-A3 that way.


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## sea_going_dude (Dec 7, 2011)

I had a problem one time because I didn't clean my black powder rifle as soon as I got home and waited until the next day, The section where the black powder is when loaded was not shiney next day, I took a swab that fit the bore snuggly and ran it through with wd-40 first, then I took another swab, dipped it in fine valve grinding compound and ran it back n forth several times and it took the dark out and brought it back to shiney as before, In your case I would do much the same, starting with a proper size bore brush (bronze) BUT I WOULD NOT USE A DRILL MOTOR.... I would run the bronze brush back n forth in the barrell letting it follow the rifleings (turning as it moved through the bore) after doing this to get any loose material, rust etc out then I would take a tight fitting bore swab, (again covered with the fine valve grinding compound) and as with my BP rifle, and run it through the bore from chamber to muzzle as many times as it took to clean any other "darkness" out of the bore. Repeat the bore swab with compound as needed. I would think that spinning the bore brush/swab with a drill motor would not clean the riflings as well and could possibly cause some damage. I'm sure if you follow this procedure it will bring the bore back to like new condition, unless it is pitted or otherwise damaged. 
I was so glad to be able to bring my BP rifle back to it's new shine and learned a lesson, CLEAN BLACK POWDER WEAPONS AS SOON AS YOU RETURN FROM THE FIELD. I thought I might get away with it this one time but just that short time permitted the BP to cause that much discoloration. I knew better but I'm sure It won't happen again. After this procedure, clean the bore with a clean swab to remove any residual valve compound.
When I say swab I'm talking about the ones that look like a mop head and not the bore patches. You want the swab to fit tightly in the bore also.
Better to clean from chamber end to prevent any damage to muzzle end of weapon.
Oh Yes, my BP rifle has a removable plug to make cleaning possible. It is a Harrington Richardson 58 cal.
You can spin the swab in the chamber but wouldn't do it in the rifled section.
It may take several cleanings to bring the bore surface to the "shine" that you are looking for but each cleaning will get you closer to what you want.
Good luck, good and safe shooting.

Benefactor Life Member National Rifle Association......we need you, join us today


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## dragon5126 (Nov 30, 2008)

Starting fluid... BAD NEWS it's ethyl ether... this should never be used when it can be inhaled or come in contact with skin... so it needs to be used outdoors... using brake cleaner would only be marginally safer. Better yet, just blast it out with more WD-40 or any foaming bore cleaner of the so called CLP (clean lubricate protect) variety. and give it a good swabbing out as you should anyways... As for swabbing from which end.. just use a muzzle guide and start at the muzzle. It's much better (and cheaper) than damaging the chamber, and the guides typically fit multiple firearms. As for Power diven scrubbing, not alwasy a cool thing to do... round the edges of the rifling and you will destroy the accuracy. Go easy on this... if it doesnt work try lapping the bore ( bore lapping kits can be purchased from Brownells). And NEVER fill the bore with anything and fire a blank. This is a deadly combination, and a blown barrel just waiting to happen.


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## dragon5126 (Nov 30, 2008)

Magus said:


> Same way as with the full bore treatment.I fixed a bud's 03-A3 that way.


NOOOOO!!!! You dont know why the chamber needs to be polished to begin with! this may result in the firearm needing to be rechambered!
Instead IF you have access to "diamond dust" polishing compound, impregnate a once fired ( from this rifle) shell with the compound ( apply it to a plate of glass and roll the shell back and forth in it forcing it into the surface of the brass) and insert into the chamber and close the bolt, Now that the shell is locked into the bolt via the extractor, carefully open the bolt part way so that the shell stays partially in the chamber, and reclose it repeatedly. as the polish starts to darken extract the shell fully and swab the chamber and check it with another once fired shell (again from this chamber) to be sure that it chambers and extracts properly. If not repeat. If anything more is required, a chamber finishing reamer and headspace gauge needs to be used to ensure chamber dimensions are maintained and unsafe conditions are not created. Automotive valve lapping compound is way too course for use in a firearm's chamber and can create a condition that will result in stuck cases.


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## sea_going_dude (Dec 7, 2011)

I'd never put sand in a firearm.....



BillM said:


> Remove the bullet from a cartridge.
> 
> Plug the open end of the cartridge case with soap.
> 
> ...


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

dragon5126 said:


> NOOOOO!!!! You dont know why the chamber needs to be polished to begin with! this may result in the firearm needing to be rechambered!
> Instead IF you have access to "diamond dust" polishing compound, impregnate a once fired ( from this rifle) shell with the compound ( apply it to a plate of glass and roll the shell back and forth in it forcing it into the surface of the brass) and insert into the chamber and close the bolt, Now that the shell is locked into the bolt via the extractor, carefully open the bolt part way so that the shell stays partially in the chamber, and reclose it repeatedly. as the polish starts to darken extract the shell fully and swab the chamber and check it with another once fired shell (again from this chamber) to be sure that it chambers and extracts properly. If not repeat. If anything more is required, a chamber finishing reamer and headspace gauge needs to be used to ensure chamber dimensions are maintained and unsafe conditions are not created. Automotive valve lapping compound is way too course for use in a firearm's chamber and can create a condition that will result in stuck cases.


SAND?! where in my post did you see me using sand?you confused my post with the other guy. 

Valve grinding compound and el cheapo toothpaste.using sand would be dumb.I've yet to ruin a gun doing this[however if the chamber's pitted, its screwed anyway.]just use the fine valve polish or toothpaste.


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## dragon5126 (Nov 30, 2008)

Magus said:


> SAND?! where in my post did you see me using sand?you confused my post with the other guy.
> 
> Valve grinding compound and el cheapo toothpaste.using sand would be dumb.I've yet to ruin a gun doing this[however if the chamber's pitted, its screwed anyway.]just use the fine valve polish or toothpaste.


now I remember why I stopped posting here... People DO NOT READ what is posted... WHERE do YOU see me making ANY statement about sand in the instructions on how to lap the chamber?


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## dragon5126 (Nov 30, 2008)

*How to blow a barrel, remove your hands and your eyes in one "SHOT"*



BillM said:


> Remove the bullet from a cartridge.
> 
> Plug the open end of the cartridge case with soap.
> 
> ...


Even if it's just a joke it's a stupid thing to post!


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## sea_going_dude (Dec 7, 2011)

WOW I dont want to even remember that I saw this "put sand in the barrel" WTFFFF? why not just pack it full of mud and blow the friggin gun and yourself away.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

dragon5126 said:


> now I remember why I stopped posting here... People DO NOT READ what is posted... WHERE do YOU see me making ANY statement about sand in the instructions on how to lap the chamber?


NM quoted the wrong guy.my bad.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

I am the one that gave the tip about useing sand and a blank round to clean a dark bore. It works. I got the tip from an old gun smith who picked it up during WWII.

The sand should by dry , not wet and you will not have any problems with blowing up your weapon.


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## dragon5126 (Nov 30, 2008)

Magus said:


> NM quoted the wrong guy.my bad.


Just for that I'm going to have to force you to do shots with me when we are not shooting some time:sssh:


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## dragon5126 (Nov 30, 2008)

BillM said:


> I am the one that gave the tip about useing sand and a blank round to clean a dark bore. It works. I got the tip from an old gun smith who picked it up during WWII.
> 
> The sand should by dry , not wet and you will not have any problems with blowing up your weapon.


YES it WILL... Ive see LESS cause a barrel to rupture... The fact is you have no clue how badly damaged that bore is because it is dark and You can not SEE any cracks deep rusting seperating of lands due to rust though or worse... NO it does NOT work It just puts the idiot that trys it at risk... There is a reason dark bores are frowned on. Filling a bore with anything creates compression issues and should NEVER be done EVER!


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Sand*



dragon5126 said:


> YES it WILL... Ive see LESS cause a barrel to rupture... The fact is you have no clue how badly damaged that bore is because it is dark and You can not SEE any cracks deep rusting seperating of lands due to rust though or worse... NO it does NOT work It just puts the idiot that trys it at risk... There is a reason dark bores are frowned on. Filling a bore with anything creates compression issues and should NEVER be done EVER!


Dry sand does not create any significant compression . I have done this myself numerous times. If it isn't safe to blow dry sand out of, it definatly isn't safe to fire a round out of .


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## dragon5126 (Nov 30, 2008)

BillM said:


> Dry sand does not create any significant compression . I have done this myself numerous times. If it isn't safe to blow dry sand out of, it definatly isn't safe to fire a round out of .


Son, Just because it hasnt killed you yet, doesnt mean it wont do you in eventually. Just like smoking Crack, you never know when it will get you... A rifle barrel is meant to have a monolithic projectile fired down it's bore. This provides for a controlled expansion of hot gasses. When you pour sand down the barrel, you are replacing that monolithic projectile with a core of unknown density and compressibility. While in one instance the gasses from the burning powder may permeate the sand preventing compression, the next time the powder may be forced against the sand and carbonize it creating a solid plug that will cause the sand in front of it to compress against it sealing the bore, leading to detonation and injury or death. Quite frankly if you are foolish enough to continue this practice, you need to keep it to yourself, and stop putting others at risk, as they may think you are some kind of expert which you are obviously NOT.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*I'm Not*



dragon5126 said:


> Son, Just because it hasnt killed you yet, doesnt mean it wont do you in eventually. Just like smoking Crack, you never know when it will get you... A rifle barrel is meant to have a monolithic projectile fired down it's bore. This provides for a controlled expansion of hot gasses. When you pour sand down the barrel, you are replacing that monolithic projectile with a core of unknown density and compressibility. While in one instance the gasses from the burning powder may permeate the sand preventing compression, the next time the powder may be forced against the sand and carbonize it creating a solid plug that will cause the sand in front of it to compress against it sealing the bore, leading to detonation and injury or death. Quite frankly if you are foolish enough to continue this practice, you need to keep it to yourself, and stop putting others at risk, as they may think you are some kind of expert which you are obviously NOT.


1. I am not your son. I am 63 years old.

2. I held a FFL for twenty one years and I build guns from older military weapons as a hobby.

3. I was an engineer and before that, I was a toolmaker.

4. I held five pressure vessel welding codes.

If you don't want my advise, you don't have to take it but don't confuse me with your children.


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## dragon5126 (Nov 30, 2008)

BillM said:


> 1. I am not your son. I am 63 years old.
> 
> 2. I held a FFL for twenty one years and I build guns from older military weapons as a hobby.
> 
> ...


IF YOU were HALF of what YOU CLAIM You would NOT make such asinine claims as you have... I AM an investigator, Scientist, and Engineer For the Wisconsin State Crime Lab, I have No doubt seen multitudes more firearms failures than you have EVER dreamt of SON, It's time for YOU to Grow up and stop foisting OFF deadly and DANGEROUS advice as Gospel Truth. PERIOD.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Gentlemen please.
thin skins go with thin skulls, I'm assured you gentlemen have neither,so just each agree the other is a [email protected]$$ and go on.

So who blew up a gun again?

Why can't you guys just do like I posted? I'm pretty sure it works better than sand anyway and besides,I don't pack a selection of blanks around in my tool box.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*I doubt*



dragon5126 said:


> IF YOU were HALF of what YOU CLAIM You would NOT make such asinine claims as you have... I AM an investigator, Scientist, and Engineer For the Wisconsin State Crime Lab, I have No doubt seen multitudes more firearms failures than you have EVER dreamt of SON, It's time for YOU to Grow up and stop foisting OFF deadly and DANGEROUS advice as Gospel Truth. PERIOD.


I doubt your curriculum Vita; I doubt you work on 11th St in any capacity beyond being an intern. The use of "Son" is an attempt to bolster your authority by insinuating that you are in some way superior to me via age or experience. All I did was pass along a tip regarding cleaning the bore of a rifle barrel. I will be real specific here. If anyone does this, only use an ounce or less of dry sand. Do not fill the barrel up with it. I am not going to fight with you or anyone else here. As for my advice, you can take it or leave it. As for the term "Son", you would either be my son's age or you would be retired by now. Don't call me "son "and I won't call you "Son". If you were my son, I would have raised you better!


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

To remove all doubt and facilitate understanding of this method, could we see pictures of this actually working? maybe a video? photographic demonstration is key to understanding unusual methods.

To quote the 4 can guys:
"Pics or it didn't happen!"


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Magnas*



Magus said:


> To remove all doubt and facilitate understanding of this method, could we see pictures of this actually working? maybe a video? photographic demonstration is key to understanding unusual methods.
> 
> To quote the 4 can guys:
> "Pics or it didn't happen!"


Magnas, I have never filmed this method of cleaning a rifle bore.
I have however done it, with no ill effects.
The grains of dry sand just blow out the muzzle of the barrel like tiny bits of sand.
There is no significant compression such as one would expect with a lead bullet.
On the way down the barrel, the grains of sand abrade the groves and lands of the barrel, thus cleaning it.
This is only done with a blank round.
Ruptures happen when a barrel is blocked with mud or any other material and a live round with a projectile is fired.
The resulting rupture is caused by a hydraulic compression between the bullet and the blockage in the end of the barrel. This prevents escape of the exploding gasses between the chamber and the bullet.
Dry sand that would fall out of the end of the barrel, (if you turned it toward the ground), with no projectile behind it, will create no compression.
I am done with this subject. I have nothing to prove!


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

I can see your point now that you explain a bit better,BUT I'll stick with my method though.blanks are hard to come by.


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## Redtail (Oct 17, 2008)

I don't recommend chambering anything that isn't a live round, a blank round, or a specially constructed dud round to protect your firing pins. It may well work, but I don't encourage it. Toothpaste contains the same exact silica, it's just in a more controlled form. I used a similar method to the second one mentioned, using a .32-caliber bore brush covered in toothpaste to clean my M44 Nagant. Rembrandt. Not the cheapest toothpaste, but it probably contains the fewest extra chemicals of any off-the-shelf grocery store toothpaste, and it's what I use already, so I had it on hand. 

No cordless drill, just scrubscrubscrub for a minute near the chamber, pull it out about 2", scrubscrubscrub again, pull it out another 2 inches, scrubscrubscrub, repeat until you have dirty toothpaste on your hand and you accidentally poke yourself on brush bristles.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Had a gunsmith buddy who smoothed revolver actions with pearl drops.


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## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

I have lapped muzzle loader bores by rolling a hollow slug in diamond compound and pushing it through the bore from the breech end. Gotta be careful inserting it with the breech plug removed, to avoid damaging the slug on the breech threads.

I have read about gunsmiths "slugging" a CF rifle bore, that is, casting a soft lead slug in place in the bore with a wire imbedded in it. Then the protruding wire is used to pull the slug back and forth in the bore, being very careful to not let it exit the bore fully until you are finished. Make the slug fairly long, so that a portion of it can be pulled out the muzzle end to apply diamond compound, then lap until it is slick and pull it out the BREECH end, to avoid damaging the muzzle end crown. Or, you could re-crown the end, if you have means to make a crowning tool.

Brownell's used to have a lot of info on this sort of thing.


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## dragon5126 (Nov 30, 2008)

machinist said:


> I have lapped muzzle loader bores by rolling a hollow slug in diamond compound and pushing it through the bore from the breech end. Gotta be careful inserting it with the breech plug removed, to avoid damaging the slug on the breech threads.
> 
> I have read about gunsmiths "slugging" a CF rifle bore, that is, casting a soft lead slug in place in the bore with a wire imbedded in it. Then the protruding wire is used to pull the slug back and forth in the bore, being very careful to not let it exit the bore fully until you are finished. Make the slug fairly long, so that a portion of it can be pulled out the muzzle end to apply diamond compound, then lap until it is slick and pull it out the BREECH end, to avoid damaging the muzzle end crown. Or, you could re-crown the end, if you have means to make a crowning tool.
> 
> Brownell's used to have a lot of info on this sort of thing.


This is the correct way to slug a bore. The proper way to fire lap a bore is to impregnate a lead bullet with abrasive and load it with a light charge and fire it, As I have been doing since the sixties...


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## dragon5126 (Nov 30, 2008)

BillM said:


> I doubt your curriculum Vita; I doubt you work on 11th St in any capacity beyond being an intern. The use of "Son" is an attempt to bolster your authority by insinuating that you are in some way superior to me via age or experience. All I did was pass along a tip regarding cleaning the bore of a rifle barrel. I will be real specific here. If anyone does this, only use an ounce or less of dry sand. Do not fill the barrel up with it. I am not going to fight with you or anyone else here. As for my advice, you can take it or leave it. As for the term "Son", you would either be my son's age or you would be retired by now. Don't call me "son "and I won't call you "Son". If you were my son, I would have raised you better!


If you had a clue You would know The Lab is on Lapham and not 11th... but what can be expected. You could not even drop it when Magus said to... your little web search just proves that you are indeed the Jacka$$


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*I know*



dragon5126 said:


> If you had a clue You would know The Lab is on Lapham and not 11th... but what can be expected. You could not even drop it when Magus said to... your little web search just proves that you are indeed the Jacka$$


I know every thing I need to know about you.

You are a Wantabe, nothing more!


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## dragon5126 (Nov 30, 2008)

have you been taking your Aricept?


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Why?*



dragon5126 said:


> have you been taking your Aricept?


Are you looking to score some?


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## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

It occurred to me that the .303 bore in the OP is most likely copper fouled from jacketted ammo. The old way to get rid of that was to plug the chamber and pour the barrel full of mercury. Stand it in the corner for a few days and then pour the mercury back into its' bottle. 

Look down the bore and all that copper will be standing up like fish scales. Use the stiffest bore brush you can find and scrub it all out. If it doesn't all come out the first try, do a repeat. Then, you will be looking at steel, and can tell if it is really rusted or not. Lap lengthwise with a slug lap and it should shoot just fine, if the pits aren't too deep. 

There is probably some patent concoction available to use instead of mercury now (it amalgamates with copper/tin/lead), but I doubt if any of the new stuff will work as well as the mercury did. 

Lots of the old ways have fallen to the new "politically correct" ways. Can't have just anyone buying an ounce or two of nitric acid to get a broken screw or tap out of an expensive piece. Heck, you can't find a truck that would haul the acid today! And if you did, it would cost more than what you are trying to fix, and you'd have to sign away the family jewels to get permission to buy the stuff. Not worth it, so the piece goes in the junk. 

Smithing ain't what it used to be.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

Everytime I see the title of this thread I think its a porn posting.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

It is.
can't you feel the love between those other gunsmiths?they'll be posting pics to see who has the longest barrel and tightest bore next.

*runs like hell*


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## sea_going_dude (Dec 7, 2011)

Guys, polishing is not going to damage anything. Polishing will not REMOVE any metal. I would not put any wire brushes in the bore and SPIN them or anything else that is made of any kind of metal. We are talking about very fine CLEANING here and by doing it over and over, hopefully we will eventually polish our any stain that may be present. If any metal must be removed in the process, you will surely increase the bore and will bring about more serious problems.

On my BLACK POWDER rifle I only used a bronze bore brush on the riflings and used several tightly fitting bore mops (in the chamber) saturated with wd-40 and the finest polishing compound I could find. Just run the mops back and forth and/or spin them (by hand) until you get the results you are after. If that doesn't work, you have a more serious problem than just needing polishing. 

And, MY GOD who ever heard or thought of putting frigging SAND in a rifle or any firearm for that matter. You got to be kidding me that anybody would even think about following that suggestion. I was always careful to not get even a grain of sand in my old daisy RED RYDER bb gun.

Let me go lock my gun safe........Liberty safe by the way.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

The only reason I did this thread was over a rifle with a crud encased and rusty bore, it actually shoots decent now.


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## hunterseeker (Aug 4, 2012)

Simple answer - do your own cleaning in the manner you think is right. If you kill yourself doing it, it was your choice. If you want it done completely right, find a tried and true licensed gunsmith and hire them to do the intricate work. 

Way to start an argument Magus even if it was NOT intended...


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

And suppose I said I got the method from an armorer?. guess everybody has something they do best.be it my way, your way, the pissed guys way, whatever. 
Cleaning a crappy bore is intricate? damn, made me feel all special.. 

How about this then, everybody post your method for cleaning up the crappy pipe and caveat emptor?


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## hunterseeker (Aug 4, 2012)

Magus said:


> Cleaning a crappy bore is intricate? damn, made me feel all special..


The point is - if it's something beyond your general scope of knowledge, get an expert to do it rather than mess up your weapon.

And as far as you feeling special.... Well... Sorry, I didn't mean to insult you.. Ha ha..


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Ya didn't, thought it was a compliment.LOL


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## sea_going_dude (Dec 7, 2011)

sea_going_dude said:


> i'd never put sand in a firearm.....


wow omg every time i read this i can't believe what i read. Sand in a weapon. Not not not.. Like putting sand in your transmission or differential...


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## unioncreek (Nov 30, 2012)

The only thing you'll do by spinning the rod in the bore is break down the rifling. I agree with every thing else. Instead of spinning the rod run the steel wool and rod back and forth through the bore like your cleaning it. You will feel the steel wool cutting the crus out when you feel it quit cutting change the steel wool.

Another thing never put any valve cutting compound, tooth paster or anything on the shoulder of the case when polishing a chamber all your going to do is increase the headspace and make the rifle unsafe.

Bobg


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

I use ONLY bronze brushes after the rust is gone.


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