# RIgid, Isolated, Rugged Individualism



## KittyCat (Dec 1, 2010)

Rugged individualism has always been a cornerstone of American culture. The emphasis on the individual, not the other is the highest good. But there is a heavy cost to such a view: isolation, rigid isolation to the harm of the individual. The philosophy of a prepared society is based first and foremost on the individual and his ability to survive. It appears "society" takes a backseat. We share ideas, prepare for the worst and mistrust (sometimes rightly) the government. Yet as we set ourselves apart, we loose unity of common shared values, not only with the unprepared but ourselves. The rarely addressed question, apart from self defense, community division of labor, skills and expulsion of moochers is "how shall we then live?" This nation was founded on common values. What are our values apart from food, clothing and shelter? How can there be a prepared society when rugged individualism brings disunity that will destroy a people, a culture or nation? Other cultures and nations do not suffer from our severe practice of individualism. I have observed Japanese and Indian (not American Indian) culture and practice. They downplay the individual. How are we going to live and maintain if the culture collapses. Your comments please.


----------



## VUnder (Sep 1, 2011)

Rugged individual trappers came to the front in the Revolutionary War and started sniping off scouts and officers of the British army and did much to win the war. This is a nation built by rugged individualism. The ones that aren't are descendants of people that came later, after it was "safe". The Constitution is set up so that the country is a "loose affiliation" of independent states. The Federal Government is only supposed to protect the borders and deal with international issues with other countries. Now they are in most every aspect of an individual citizens daily lives. Any rights not specifically given to the Federal Government belong to the states. But, as an individual, I have to worry about the EPA, FEMA, IRS, FBI, NTSB, ATF, FBLM, INS, HSA, and many more, all federal. I have had dealings with each of those agencies. I would rather live in a nation of "rugged individuals" than run with a herd of "sheeple".


----------



## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

KittyCat said:


> Rugged individualism has always been a cornerstone of American culture. The emphasis on the individual, not the other is the highest good. But there is a heavy cost to such a view: isolation, rigid isolation to the harm of the individual. The philosophy of a prepared society is based first and foremost on the individual and his ability to survive. It appears "society" takes a backseat. We share ideas, prepare for the worst and mistrust (sometimes rightly) the government. Yet as we set ourselves apart, we loose unity of common shared values, not only with the unprepared but ourselves. The rarely addressed question, apart from self defense, community division of labor, skills and expulsion of moochers is "how shall we then live?" This nation was founded on common values. What are our values apart from food, clothing and shelter? How can there be a prepared society when rugged individualism brings disunity that will destroy a people, a culture or nation? Other cultures and nations do not suffer from our severe practice of individualism. I have observed Japanese and Indian (not American Indian) culture and practice. They downplay the individual. How are we going to live and maintain if the culture collapses. Your comments please.


As you said this Country was founded by rugged individuals and if TS does HTF eventually there will only be rugged individuals or small communities of ruged individuals left. The folks that make it past the first year (hopefully) will be patriots and believers in the Constitution and if after the first year big brother is still around trying to run everything, well it just might be the second American Revolution. If out of over 300 million there is only 10% of the population left that is still over 30 million people that have faced what was thrown at them and "weathered the storm". My guess would be that those 30 million "rugged individuals" would tell big brother where to stick it and if TPTB didn't like it and wanted to push those 30 million folks, well I don't think that TPTB would remain in power very long.

If you say that there is no way that would happen, no way that many citizens would come together, then think about it this way. Out of that 30 million there will be very few if any left wingers or folk wanting hand outs from big brother. The folks that survive that first year have proven that they have the right mind set and the will to make and they will be the type of individuals that won't take any "crap" from anyone, especially an over bearing and opressive government.

These would not be the apathetic sheeple that wouldn't unite and form a unified front. These "rugged individuals" would be on the march.

JMHO


----------



## FunnyFarm (Oct 26, 2011)

Ahh nice i see a Thomas Jefferson quote here is my favorite....

The worst aristocracy of all is that of the rich over the poor...

That being said I'm not necessarily against being an individualist. Working on one's own problems repairing one's own life is the best thing we can do to help others.I would go as far as to say if we do not have our own ducks in a row that we would not in a real way be ready to help anyone else. The problems i see in this country today could take a lesson from these few statements I've made above. The occupy wall street bunch shout in the streets... they want change...some of their points are valid...but what are they doing in their personal lives to build the world as they would like it to be?
The corporations...The tea party. they to some degree shout in the streets also... they want change...I would ask the same question of them I asked of the occupy movement.
If the people in both these movements actively changed themselves as individuals to represent the best ideals of their beliefs they would be far to busy changing the world to shout in the streets...the problem i see with most "Rugged individualist" is that they take on many of the positive aspects of repairing one's own life...then turn it around and somehow think because it worked for them that somehow what worked for them should be extrapolated to the rest of the world.
A few words on the constitution. A great document... It was NEVER meant to be a finished product never to be tested or tampered with. All good things in order to stay good must change in order to truly represent the will of the people...The founders of this country wrote our constitution in the manner that they did because they all adamantly disagreed with each other in the same ways we all do today. When I hear the economic arguments we are having today... I hear the same arguments that Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton had 200 yrs ago.... Someday maybe we'll learn.


----------



## Jimmy24 (Apr 20, 2011)

KittyCat said:


> Rugged individualism has always been a cornerstone of American culture. The emphasis on the individual, not the other is the highest good. But there is a heavy cost to such a view: isolation, rigid isolation to the harm of the individual. The philosophy of a prepared society is based first and foremost on the individual and his ability to survive. It appears "society" takes a backseat. We share ideas, prepare for the worst and mistrust (sometimes rightly) the government. Yet as we set ourselves apart, we loose unity of common shared values, not only with the unprepared but ourselves. The rarely addressed question, apart from self defense, community division of labor, skills and expulsion of moochers is "how shall we then live?" This nation was founded on common values. What are our values apart from food, clothing and shelter? How can there be a prepared society when rugged individualism brings disunity that will destroy a people, a culture or nation? Other cultures and nations do not suffer from our severe practice of individualism. I have observed Japanese and Indian (not American Indian) culture and practice. They downplay the individual. How are we going to live and maintain if the culture collapses. Your comments please.


Guess I don't see your point. You say mistrust (sometimes rightly) the government. Well, that in fact is our purpose as a citizen. WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT.

The Constitution is for our individual rights. It protects the one from the many. No doubt we have an oxymoron for government. Oxymoron you ask??? Well we are a republic, that protects the individual's rights, but we call ourself a democracy, which is majority rules. Our rugged individualism is what made this country.

As far as Japan and India goes, that is their culture for thousands of years. Neither is a true republic nor democracy. Japan's culture has nearly wiped out their civilization more than once. India is a billion people that infight amoung themselves for thousands of years. All deadly.

The one thing they don't have, that we do. Not be so ridgid and the ability to bend the rules and make it work for everyone, rather than hurt a few, so the many can have their way. That IS our culture. I get so tired of hearing about others culture. What about ours? I'm proud of our history and culture. Are we perfect? Nope. As is anyone else. But other than one sad time, The Civil war, we manage to work it out. We have to work at it all the time.

I'll take our culture over the others, at least at this point. Don't see any others worth the effort.

Jimmy


----------



## Clarice (Aug 19, 2010)

Amen, Jimmy, Amen.


----------



## lefty (Sep 29, 2011)

KittyCat said:


> Rugged individualism has always been a cornerstone of American culture. The emphasis on the individual, not the other is the highest good. But there is a heavy cost to such a view: isolation, rigid isolation to the harm of the individual. The philosophy of a prepared society is based first and foremost on the individual and his ability to survive. It appears "society" takes a backseat. We share ideas, prepare for the worst and mistrust (sometimes rightly) the government. Yet as we set ourselves apart, we loose unity of common shared values, not only with the unprepared but ourselves. The rarely addressed question, apart from self defense, community division of labor, skills and expulsion of moochers is "how shall we then live?" This nation was founded on common values. What are our values apart from food, clothing and shelter? How can there be a prepared society when rugged individualism brings disunity that will destroy a people, a culture or nation? Other cultures and nations do not suffer from our severe practice of individualism. I have observed Japanese and Indian (not American Indian) culture and practice. They downplay the individual. How are we going to live and maintain if the culture collapses. Your comments please.


Rugged individualism is not a value but a mentality and life style. The values that shaped our founding fathers were their basic Christian values. It was that set values that tied groups of strong individuals into close knit communities. Where you helped your neighbor without being asked. Barn raisings are a great example. Rugged individualism in its members is what makes a society with values and morals great. The Bible is full of rugged individuals, yet all practiced brotherhood, charity and sacrifice. Moral rugged individual is independent yes but also devoted to the common good, why because 1 in a society of rugged individuals EVERYONE is working hard, and taking care of themselves for the most part, and 2 if the community prospers then the individual prospers. Rugged individualism in a moral person is about taking care of yourself and looking out for your neighbor.

You mentioned Japan and India. I believe that is was our rugged individualism combined with our Christian values that allowed this country to become the GREATEST country on earth. People thought forthemselves and did not and did not want the government to tell them what to do. THere was no blind obdience.


----------



## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

lefty said:


> Rugged individualism is not a value but a mentality and life style. The values that shaped our founding fathers were their basic Christian values. It was that set values that tied groups of strong individuals into close knit communities. Where you helped your neighbor without being asked. Barn raisings are a great example. Rugged individualism in its members is what makes a society with values and morals great. The Bible is full of rugged individuals, yet all practiced brotherhood, charity and sacrifice. A moral rugged individual is independent yes, but also devoted to the common good. Why? Because - 1: in a society of rugged individuals EVERYONE is working hard, and taking care of themselves for the most part, and 2: if the community prospers then the individual prospers. Rugged individualism in a moral person is about taking care of yourself and looking out for your neighbor.
> 
> You mentioned Japan and India. I believe that is was our rugged individualism combined with our Christian values that allowed this country to become the GREATEST country on earth. People thought forthemselves and did not and did not want the government to tell them what to do. THere was no blind obdience.


:2thumb: beat me to it, and pobably said it more eloquently to boot :beercheer:

I don't understand where the disconnect between self-reliance and charity/communal spirit comes from in some... they're not mutually exclusive :dunno:


----------



## lefty (Sep 29, 2011)

I realize that sound a bit preachie and was heavy on the Bible and flag waving. If I offended anyone I am sorry


----------



## lefty (Sep 29, 2011)

The_Blob said:


> :2thumb: beat me to it, and pobably said it more eloquently to boot :beercheer:
> 
> I don't understand where the disconnect between self-reliance and charity/communal spirit comes from in some... they're not mutually exclusive :dunno:


thank you. I don't know why some think they are mutually exclusive, in fact I think they are directly related. If I can take care of myself no problem I believe I am more likely to put out a hand to help others. If I have a $100 in my pocket and a see some guy who is down on his luck hustling to make a busk I am way quicker to help him than if some bum walks up and demands money.

I am passionate about it because I have spent my entire life being taught it, living it as best possible.


----------



## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

Alot of great posts here. Id just like to say that being a rugged individualist is not to the exclusion of community. However if the community is overrun by folks who are not rugged individualists (as we see today) then you basically are overrun by a bunch of "gimme gimme" folks. Rugged individualists take pride in doing for themselves and providing for themselves as well as helping out friends and neighbors when they can but nobody (especially individualists) like to be taken advantage of. These OWS protesters may have some valid complaints but they have no room to talk because all they (most of them in my estimation) want are things they never earned or deserved. They want something for nothing. They want someone else to take care of their needs and provide for them. This goes against all things American.


----------



## lefty (Sep 29, 2011)

FunnyFarm said:


> Ahh nice i see a Thomas Jefferson quote here is my favorite....
> 
> The worst aristocracy of all is that of the rich over the poor...
> 
> ...


Interesting point.

I must disagree with you and our current President, I believe the Constitution of the United States is finest document every created by man (I believe the Bible was inspired by God) and certainly the most important document in this country. I do not think it is flawed or needs to be tinkered with. It is the rules by which our governemet operates and limits its power. I see no more reason now that the governement should have more power then back when the Constitution was created. As for the Arguments between Jefferson and Hamilton, neither one supported wealth redisrobution, and even supported taxation at the levels we currently endure. Even the most ardent Federalist at the time the Constitution was created would have supported a Federal Governement that is even half as controling as our current one has become


----------



## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

lefty said:


> Interesting point.
> 
> I must disagree with you and our current President, I believe the Constitution of the United States is finest document every created by man (I believe the Bible was inspired by God) and certainly the most important document in this country. I do not think it is flawed or needs to be tinkered with. It is the rules by which our governemet operates and limits its power. I see no more reason now that the governement should have more power then back when the Constitution was created. As for the Arguments between Jefferson and Hamilton, neither one supported wealth redisrobution, and even supported taxation at the levels we currently endure. Even the most ardent Federalist at the time the Constitution was created would have supported a Federal Governement that is even half as controling as our current one has become


Here here! (or is it "hear"?) Well said!


----------



## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

VUnder said:


> Rugged individual trappers came to the front in the Revolutionary War and started sniping off scouts and officers of the British army and did much to win the war. This is a nation built by rugged individualism. The ones that aren't are descendants of people that came later, after it was "safe". The Constitution is set up so that the country is a "loose affiliation" of independent states. The Federal Government is only supposed to protect the borders and deal with international issues with other countries. Now they are in most every aspect of an individual citizens daily lives. Any rights not specifically given to the Federal Government belong to the states. But, as an individual, I have to worry about the EPA, FEMA, IRS, FBI, NTSB, ATF, FBLM, INS, HSA, and many more, all federal. I have had dealings with each of those agencies. I would rather live in a nation of "rugged individuals" than run with a herd of "sheeple".


 I agree . We had laws already,did'nt need more.


----------



## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

Some call the Constitution 'a living document'well it has had so much unnessasary surgery on it [ added federal laws ] it is now in critcle condition.


----------



## ComputerGuy (Dec 10, 2010)

Meerkat said:


> Some call the Constitution 'a living document'well it has had so much unnessasary surgery on it [ added federal laws ] it is now in critcle condition.


Very well put. Thank you Meerkat


----------



## FunnyFarm (Oct 26, 2011)

I wouldn't call all the things we've done to the constitution positive by any means. Though there have been some successes (the bill of rights). People change, ideas change, times change. Sometimes for the good...sometimes not so good. The human spirit is in that change...We can't be afraid of it.That being said we also must be wise and brave enough to accept when something doesn't work and strive to change our thoughts as to allow ourselves to grow.


----------



## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

ComputerGuy said:


> Very well put. Thank you Meerkat


 Your welcome. Our laws were made for a united principled people nota bowl of mixed nuts and fruits.


----------



## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

FunnyFarm said:


> I wouldn't call all the things we've done to the constitution positive by any means. Though there have been some successes (the bill of rights). People change, ideas change, times change. Sometimes for the good...sometimes not so good. The human spirit is in that change...We can't be afraid of it.That being said we also must be wise and brave enough to accept when something doesn't work and strive to change our thoughts as to allow ourselves to grow.


 Yes but most of our laws were fundimental and basically human rights.The only reason slavery lasted s long as it did was because of 2 states refusing to sign unless they could keep their slaves,SC and GA I think.
Biggest mistake we made was slavery unlike others who owned slaves ' including the slaves ancesers' we will never do enough to compinsate for it.
No man should labor for another.


----------



## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

The Constitution IS NOT a living document. As Meerkat stated, it is founded on certain fundamental truths. and they are timeless. Some think that we should tug and pull and stretch the Constitution because "times change". Time certainly passes but basic human nature remains the same and basic truths do, too. Our strengths and weaknesses are the same today as they were when Jesus walked or even ten thousand years earlier. Our relationships one to another are the same as is our propensity towards envy, greed, anger, love, devotion, making war, and brutality. As long as those things remain, the Constitution serves us still without later day meddling by people who have already screwed things up enough.

I don't know who coined the phrase "rugged individualist". Maybe some politician hunting for votes. The correct phrase is self-determination - you are the boss of yourself, you are the only one responsible for yourself, you make the decisions for yourself, and you are the only one accountable for those decisions whether they be right or wrong. It in no way dismisses community or a joining together towards meeting shared common goals. Almost the entire Constitution is a direct reflection of John Locke and English Common Law. Joined with shared Christian beliefs and principles, the realization that man was meant to be free in order to reach his potential and become closer to the Creator and that the freedom comes from God, not the state.

In current society, and rugged individualist might be better described as a "free spirit".


----------



## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

Jezcruzen said:


> The Constitution IS NOT a living document. As Meerkat stated, it is founded on certain fundamental truths. and they are timeless. Some think that we should tug and pull and stretch the Constitution because "times change". Time certainly passes but basic human nature remains the same and basic truths do, too. Our strengths and weaknesses are the same today as they were when Jesus walked or even ten thousand years earlier. Our relationships one to another are the same as is our propensity towards envy, greed, anger, love, devotion, making war, and brutality. As long as those things remain, the Constitution serves us still without later day meddling by people who have already screwed things up enough.
> 
> I don't know who coined the phrase "rugged individualist". Maybe some politician hunting for votes. The correct phrase is self-determination - you are the boss of yourself, you are the only one responsible for yourself, you make the decisions for yourself, and you are the only one accountable for those decisions whether they be right or wrong. It in no way dismisses community or a joining together towards meeting shared common goals. Almost the entire Constitution is a direct reflection of John Locke and English Common Law. Joined with shared Christian beliefs and principles, the realization that man was meant to be free in order to reach his potential and become closer to the Creator and that the freedom comes from God, not the state.
> 
> In current society, and rugged individualist might be better described as a "free spirit".


 Yes our nation was based on the chrisian doctrine ,the Ten Commandments are in marble and on the wall behind the Supreme Court Injustices . But that upset some of the antivalues radicals so the majority allowed them to change thngs,it has been down hill every since .Once you take God and responsibility out of the way you have to repalce it with something else,this new society is the result of that 'something else'.
All our laws were based on these biblecal principles and laws. 
What did the raidcals accomplish? We now have the most unhealthy kids in our history,the most immoral ,and the most depressed.Our children are being abused by sexual deviants in or schools and work places. 1 in 4 have or have had some form STD .Even their grandparents 'swingers' are immoral morons.They have actually caught up with the STD outbreak.Child porn and abduction is rampant now .
This is what happens when a nation loses its moral compas .


----------



## FunnyFarm (Oct 26, 2011)

The facts of history in truth support all the views I've read here pertaining to the constitution. Some have always thought in absolute terms and some recognized just how imperfect our thinking as humans can be sometimes. I personally believe ALL things can always intrinsically work toward something better. Thomas Jefferson very much believed in the same sorts of things. Although i do believe we all have religious freedom and can think anyway we like Some of the founders were not to fond of the working's of the church. Here are a few quotes....

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

...the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. [George Washington, 1789, responding to clergy complaints that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ, from The Godless Constitution: The Case Against Religious Correctness, Isacc Kramnick and R. Laurence Moore W.W. Norton and Company 101-102]

Others very much though differently...

"The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States." Alexander Hamilton

So as we can see some of our founding fathers believed one way and others a different one. We can spend weeks upon years pulling quotes to support most of our opinions as different as they sometimes appear. The fact is though that our constitution protects not just the folks who think the way I do, It protects everyone who thinks anyway they so choose to think. I never have to like they way others think... But how others choose to think or live their lives is none of my business anyhow. I do love a good healthy debate and I also know that's what this country was founded on. So that being said I'd like to thank you all for having one here. A good discussion is the best place to further and refine our opinions.


----------



## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

FunnyFarm said:


> The facts of history in truth support all the views I've read here pertaining to the constitution. Some have always thought in absolute terms and some recognized just how imperfect our thinking as humans can be sometimes. I personally believe ALL things can always intrinsically work toward something better. Thomas Jefferson very much believed in the same sorts of things. Although i do believe we all have religious freedom and can think anyway we like Some of the founders were not to fond of the working's of the church. Here are a few quotes....
> 
> Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
> 
> ...


 Chrisitans unlike some other religians evolved.We did'nt force our religian on anyone .Even the things that were against the law was never enforced long as you did'nt hurt anyone else and kept your private life private.
Yet christians are forced to except the rules of radicals .
Our schools are proof of this exposure .This is the fault of the parents and society as a whole though . The whole world has gone to the dark side,imo.


----------



## lefty (Sep 29, 2011)

FunnyFarm said:


> The facts of history in truth support all the views I've read here pertaining to the constitution. Some have always thought in absolute terms and some recognized just how imperfect our thinking as humans can be sometimes. I personally believe ALL things can always intrinsically work toward something better. Thomas Jefferson very much believed in the same sorts of things. Although i do believe we all have religious freedom and can think anyway we like Some of the founders were not to fond of the working's of the church. Here are a few quotes....
> 
> Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
> 
> ...


The way our government was constructed to allow changes. The constitution is designed to set the rules for how our government operates and ensures basic God given rights.
the laws about this that and the other thing. Are not engraved in stone or the constitution and can change with time but the constitution does not change we do not need to remove limits from the government. That is why those laws were mentioned to be made at the local and state level to address changes in society


----------



## FunnyFarm (Oct 26, 2011)

Now i would say Christianity is rarely forced upon others but...History tells a different tale. Many bishops left Nicea quite unhappy. Many ideas these bishops had never ended up being incorporated into what is considered by most to be Christianity today. Many writings of ancient Christianity still exist today but were never part of the Church's teachings... The "church" killed maimed ridiculed anyone who thought different than they and some people who thought quite similar to them also. Do the dark ages ring a bell? Part the reason they were called the dark ages was because of the Church persecuting most of Europe as "heretics" The fear and devastation wrought on the people's of Europe for more than 1200 years. Of course none of this is the fault of anyone alive today. It is the truth of history though.
As far as being forced to except the rules of radicals...Some of these radicals believe the same thing you do...Why should they have to except the rule of the radicals on the other side of things. The facts still remain we can all live our lives for the most part just as we choose to. Don't like the schools? Send your children to one suits you better. Don't like this or don't like that...fine don't do it. The line is crossed though when one person or group of people think they have some right to tell the other person or group thereof what it is they can think or do. Any government institutions should be completely neutral on any issue of religion or politics. I don't have the right to teach your children my opinions nor do you have the right to teach my children yours...


----------



## ComputerGuy (Dec 10, 2010)

I have an idea. How about moving this thread to the politics or religion forums


----------



## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

FunnyFarm said:


> Now i would say Christianity is rarely forced upon others but...History tells a different tale. Many bishops left Nicea quite unhappy. Many ideas these bishops had never ended up being incorporated into what is considered by most to be Christianity today. Many writings of ancient Christianity still exist today but were never part of the Church's teachings... The "church" killed maimed ridiculed anyone who thought different than they and some people who thought quite similar to them also. Do the dark ages ring a bell? Part the reason they were called the dark ages was because of the Church persecuting most of Europe as "heretics" The fear and devastation wrought on the people's of Europe for more than 1200 years. Of course none of this is the fault of anyone alive today. It is the truth of history though.
> As far as being forced to except the rules of radicals...Some of these radicals believe the same thing you do...Why should they have to except the rule of the radicals on the other side of things. The facts still remain we can all live our lives for the most part just as we choose to. Don't like the schools? Send your children to one suits you better. Don't like this or don't like that...fine don't do it. The line is crossed though when one person or group of people think they have some right to tell the other person or group thereof what it is they can think or do. Any government institutions should be completely neutral on any issue of religion or politics. I don't have the right to teach your children my opinions nor do you have the right to teach my children yours...


Believe what you like -- I agree with you on some parts. Just be careful when you start loading the actions of the [Catholic] church on the backs of Christians. None of us are perfect but you are really painting with a broad brush when you start saying Christians did this or that just because Catholicism perpetrated so many evils. Some would argue Catholicism is only Christianity perverted and if we have folks saying that someones feelings might get hurt. I believe you had higher intentions with the majority of your post -- im just pointing out where it went off the rails.



ComputerGuy said:


> I have an idea. How about moving this thread to the politics or religion forums


One could do that... but so many threads are already blurring the lines.


----------



## KittyCat (Dec 1, 2010)

lefty said:


> Rugged individualism is not a value but a mentality and life style. The values that shaped our founding fathers were their basic Christian values. It was that set values that tied groups of strong individuals into close knit communities. Where you helped your neighbor without being asked. Barn raisings are a great example. Rugged individualism in its members is what makes a society with values and morals great. The Bible is full of rugged individuals, yet all practiced brotherhood, charity and sacrifice. Moral rugged individual is independent yes but also devoted to the common good, why because 1 in a society of rugged individuals EVERYONE is working hard, and taking care of themselves for the most part, and 2 if the community prospers then the individual prospers. Rugged individualism in a moral person is about taking care of yourself and looking out for your neighbor.
> 
> You mentioned Japan and India. I believe that is was our rugged individualism combined with our Christian values that allowed this country to become the GREATEST country on earth. People thought forthemselves and did not and did not want the government to tell them what to do. THere was no blind obdience.


In a society, prepared or not, culture and mores determine how it functions and what it cherishes. What we value flows from our mindset and we will act accordingly. I have observed in American culture two distinct mindsets. Like a road, two ditches run its parallel. Both are extreme, both are harmful. On one side there is the rugged individual, on the other its opposite. Lefty is correct in his analysis and should never be apologetic in expressing his view. Institutions that helped create tight knit communities in the past, however, are today rapidly dying. My prior comments were never meant to be a political commentary on the Constitution, nor its values, but rather preparedness. I asked previously how we should live, This is my response: The first and foremost act of preparation is your worldview and your association with individuals of like mind. If you are prepared, your associations should be a top priority. I am not talking merely about your family, relatives or close friends. I am talking about other individuals that you associate with on a daily or weekly regular basis. You are not prepared if there is no face to face interaction. You are especially not prepared if you have to create a society after the fact of a major crisis. This is the evil disunity of extreme isolated, rugged individualism. Our forefathers were rugged individualists, yes, free spirits that tamed the wilderness. But many of them died because there was no one to help in their time of need. In time of distress settlers banded together for the common good. They too, did not all live but they sacrificed their individualism for the greater good. Today, we as Americans have not or will not band together into a tight knit community. We fear the "community" will in some fashion exert unwarranted oppressive control or domination over our lives and conduct. (when this happens this is the other extreme "ditch" of evil) So I therefore ask, how often do you meet face-to- face with like minded individuals and prepare? How many are in your community? How quickly will you abandon them for a legitimate, reasonable request when you are asked to do something that cuts across the grain of your self will? Remember the road to preparedness is found in between the ditches.


----------



## FunnyFarm (Oct 26, 2011)

Kitty i agree with you whole hearted. Here on our farm We hold festivals inviting friends, family, anyone who wants to come, to learn beekeeping, help plant or harvest our gardens. Teach the kids about syrup making allowing them to gather in the sap buckets and feed the fire on the evaporator. We get together and can what we grow, butcher what we grow, harvest what we grow.
I am in favor of being prepared for anything that might happen... I think we fool ourselves if we think that being prepared means building a bunker stocking it with canned goods and flashlight batteries and practicing our aim. Truly being prepared means to change the way we think. To actively build our lives in a sustainable way so that when and if something happens we are always prepared. In this world we have today there are many different types of people as there have always been. As we grow our society we have allowed ourselves to be lulled into a sense of comfort. In this, in just a few generations We have forgot how to survive. We've had children here at our farm come to us holding a plate with a leg of chicken on it...then ask if we had any "real" chicken. We were dumfounded looking at each other till we realized that this poor child thought chicken nuggets were real chicken and what were were serving( we grow some of the tastiest pasture grown birds I've ever had) was some kind of strange substitution. We don't teach our children how to survive. True preparedness starts with ourselves as individuals. Once we have achieved our personal preparedness it must if we have any hope of survival emanate out and be part of the community.


----------



## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

FunnyFarm said:


> Now i would say Christianity is rarely forced upon others but...History tells a different tale. Many bishops left Nicea quite unhappy. Many ideas these bishops had never ended up being incorporated into what is considered by most to be Christianity today. Many writings of ancient Christianity still exist today but were never part of the Church's teachings... The "church" killed maimed ridiculed anyone who thought different than they and some people who thought quite similar to them also. Do the dark ages ring a bell? Part the reason they were called the dark ages was because of the Church persecuting most of Europe as "heretics" The fear and devastation wrought on the people's of Europe for more than 1200 years. Of course none of this is the fault of anyone alive today. It is the truth of history though.
> As far as being forced to except the rules of radicals...Some of these radicals believe the same thing you do...Why should they have to except the rule of the radicals on the other side of things. The facts still remain we can all live our lives for the most part just as we choose to. Don't like the schools? Send your children to one suits you better. Don't like this or don't like that...fine don't do it. The line is crossed though when one person or group of people think they have some right to tell the other person or group thereof what it is they can think or do. Any government institutions should be completely neutral on any issue of religion or politics. I don't have the right to teach your children my opinions nor do you have the right to teach my children yours...


 This is about today,not a few hundred years ago.Also most would be glad to end their kids to other schools if they did'nt have to pay for the indoctrination of the freeloaders. We have always paid to keep the schools open in taxes. Why don't the ones footing the bills have a choice ? Academics not politcle influance is what most want. 
Now they are gradually adding beastialty to their agendas,there is no limit for these abnormals.Google it don't expect me to do the work for you.


----------



## lefty (Sep 29, 2011)

KittyCat said:


> In a society, prepared or not, culture and mores determine how it functions and what it cherishes. What we value flows from our mindset and we will act accordingly. I have observed in American culture two distinct mindsets. Like a road, two ditches run its parallel. Both are extreme, both are harmful. On one side there is the rugged individual, on the other its opposite. Lefty is correct in his analysis and should never be apologetic in expressing his view. Institutions that helped create tight knit communities in the past, however, are today rapidly dying. My prior comments were never meant to be a political commentary on the Constitution, nor its values, but rather preparedness. I asked previously how we should live, This is my response: The first and foremost act of preparation is your worldview and your association with individuals of like mind. If you are prepared, your associations should be a top priority. I am not talking merely about your family, relatives or close friends. I am talking about other individuals that you associate with on a daily or weekly regular basis. You are not prepared if there is no face to face interaction. You are especially not prepared if you have to create a society after the fact of a major crisis. This is the evil disunity of extreme isolated, rugged individualism. Our forefathers were rugged individualists, yes, free spirits that tamed the wilderness. But many of them died because there was no one to help in their time of need. In time of distress settlers banded together for the common good. They too, did not all live but they sacrificed their individualism for the greater good. Today, we as Americans have not or will not band together into a tight knit community. We fear the "community" will in some fashion exert unwarranted oppressive control or domination over our lives and conduct. (when this happens this is the other extreme "ditch" of evil) So I therefore ask, how often do you meet face-to- face with like minded individuals and prepare? How many are in your community? How quickly will you abandon them for a legitimate, reasonable request when you are asked to do something that cuts across the grain of your self will? Remember the road to preparedness is found in between the ditches.


Kiity,

I think we are perhaps defining Rugged Individualism differently, which may be part of the issue. And I agree that what we (as a society and an individual are influenced by by culture, mores and mindset). I believe that your mind set and the collective mindset of a society is driven by ones values and the total values of the society. I fear that as a society there has been a moral decay, resulting in this entitlement, no responsibility mindset that saturates society today. I think that the values of society are part of the reason that people prepare by building a retreat and if they are lucky have a small group that will operate together. This is because society has made be a rugged Individual a bad thing if you want to work hard and take care of your family then you are bad, greedy etc. I for one believe a rugged individual is not only responsible for their family but has a moral obligation to give to the community, I for one volunteer with the cub scouts. I have a den of 14 little boys that I am doing everything I can to guide to being responsible rugged individuals. I agree that communities today are not the same as they were even 50 years ago so as a result we also form other communities that may not be geographic in nature but in other ways. This forum is a community of sorts. No man is an island (great movie by the way) and associations are important, but depending on where you live people my or my not be like minded. Canning and putting up food in a rural area would not be thought odd but common, in a suburban or urban setting then you are weird.


----------



## flayer (Jan 15, 2011)

*/nod*

Well said indeed. My highest admiration for thoughts so well expressed and what they inspire. My thanks to He who surely inspires them.


----------



## VUnder (Sep 1, 2011)

I may not like what you say, but I will fight to the death for you to be able to say it.


----------



## VUnder (Sep 1, 2011)

KittyCat said:


> Rugged individualism has always been a cornerstone of American culture. The emphasis on the individual, not the other is the highest good. But there is a heavy cost to such a view: isolation, rigid isolation to the harm of the individual. The philosophy of a prepared society is based first and foremost on the individual and his ability to survive. It appears "society" takes a backseat. We share ideas, prepare for the worst and mistrust (sometimes rightly) the government. Yet as we set ourselves apart, we loose unity of common shared values, not only with the unprepared but ourselves. The rarely addressed question, apart from self defense, community division of labor, skills and expulsion of moochers is "how shall we then live?" This nation was founded on common values. What are our values apart from food, clothing and shelter? How can there be a prepared society when rugged individualism brings disunity that will destroy a people, a culture or nation? Other cultures and nations do not suffer from our severe practice of individualism. I have observed Japanese and Indian (not American Indian) culture and practice. They downplay the individual. How are we going to live and maintain if the culture collapses. Your comments please.


Other cultures do downplay the individual. When they get sick, they come to the USA to find the individual doctor that is outstanding in his/her field. It is all about the group until one of the leaders gets really sick or needs an operation. Castro doesn't even use "wonderful free medical care cuban doctors" when he gets ill. King of Saudi Arabia was here for something last year. There is something to this "rugged individualism" thinking. It built a wonderful nation until it was hi-jacked by harvard types that downplay the individual......


----------

