# Liquid Natural Gas LNG vs. Propane?



## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Okay, have questions and cannot seem to find an understandable answer on the net.

1) From a cost stand point is LNG cheaper to buy than Propane?

2) Is one gas more efficient than the other -- BTU's per gallon / cubic foot?

3) Storage tanks --- same cost or a difference (1000 gallon tank)?

4) Back up generators --- LNG vs. Propane -- cost, life span, 

And any other information I should know about or need to research? All help appreciated.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

tmttactical said:


> Okay, have questions and cannot seem to find an understandable answer on the net.
> 1) From a cost stand point is LNG cheaper to buy than Propane?
> 2) Is one gas more efficient than the other -- BTU's per gallon / cubic foot?
> 3) Storage tanks --- same cost or a difference (1000 gallon tank)?
> ...


Don't know if this will help much....you're right, info is very difficult to find. I went with diesel, don't really know doodly-squat about LNG or Propane! Don't like gas...too explosive for me.

https://fosterfuels.com/blog/propane-vs-natural-gas-which-is-best-for-your-home/
Excerpt: NATURAL GAS OR PROPANE: WHICH IS CHEAPER?
For homes that have the option of choosing between natural gas and propane heat, cost is often the most important concern. Natural gas rates are measured in price per cubic foot, whereas propane rates are measured in price per gallon. Like all fuels, the cost of both propane and natural gas is prone to fluctuation over time. Historically, when you convert between units and compare average rates, it may appear that natural gas is the cheaper option. However, the real cost for your home will depend on a number of factors, including where you live and the efficiency of your furnace and appliances.

Another, perhaps more useful comparison between the two fuels is not price per unit, but rather BTU. BTU is a measure of heating efficiency - in the case of propane vs. natural gas, *propane has more than double the BTU rating (1030 to 2490). This means that, even if you are paying more for propane on a per-unit basis, the fuel you're buying will burn cleaner and heat your home with greater efficiency.*

http://www.kohlergenerators.com/home-generators/products/14RESAL
Excerpt: ($4000) "Comes with either an RXT 100-amp indoor-rated automatic transfer switch with 16-circuit load center or an RXT 200-amp outdoor-rated standard automatic transfer switch DC2 controller designed for today's sophisticated electronics manages both the generator set and Model RXT transfer switch functions. Quiet, neighborhood-friendly operation with sound levels similar to a typical central air conditioner
Stylish corrosion-proof enclosure impact tested to -30°F
*Runs on either natural gas or liquid propane (LPG) with simple switching between natural gas and LPG in the field.*
Streamlined installation, simple terminal block for easy field connections. Kohler also offers concrete mounting pads to lower installation costs and time. Model 14RESAL approved for off-grid applications with 18-month/1000-hour off-grid warranty.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

natural gas is found in the ground when drilling, at first while searching for oil, then drilled for on purpose. it just needs to be filtered and odorized (simplification) then it is usually piped to where it is going. NG takes a lot of pressure to liquefy, around 1500 psi so it needs specialized tanks and pumps for LNG. 
LPG (propane) is a by product of the fuel refining process. it tends to be more uniform and is much easier to liquefy (180 psi or so) simple easy tanks and pumps.

for storage propane wins. cost depends on where you are. for SHTF propane wins for sure, it can be handled with simple every day tools 

As to engine life probably about the same both are clean vaporous fuels 
if the engine load is kept at a reasonable level and maintenance is kept up
both should be about equal. propane will produce more power and thus overloads will kill the engine faster.
Engine life in a generator is more about engine speed, an 1800 rpm engine will outlast a 3600 rpm engine many times over.


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## RedBeard (May 8, 2017)

I install and service home stand by generators. Propane is way better for them than natural gas as far as efficiency. But you can build methane tanks to make your own fuel. They did it in ww1 and farms out west run off if cow or pig poop while selling back to the grid now days. Methane will run any non diesel engine and do it well at zero cost to make....


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

RedBeard said:


> I install and service home stand by generators. Propane is way better for them than natural gas as far as efficiency. But you can build methane tanks to make your own fuel. They did it in ww1 and farms out west run off if cow or pig poop while selling back to the grid now days. Methane will run any non diesel engine and do it well at zero cost to make....


How much pig poop is necessary to make enough methane to be usable? :scratch


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## RedBeard (May 8, 2017)

Pessimistic2 said:


> How much pig poop is necessary to make enough methane to be usable? :scratch


Pig, cow, human, if it poops it's poop can be used. Organic matter, grass clippings, trash even, general decay. All makes methane. There are even companies who make, sell or install methane making systems. To answer your question, not as much as you think. Heck if you have a septic system you also have free energy venting right out of it. Ww1 farmers used 275 gallon oil drum and filled them with the poop soup and let the gas fill homemade bladders then would hook them to tractors, trucks, and even to the car for the sunday rid to church. All powered by poop. I will dig up some links.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

RedBeard said:


> Pig, cow, human, if it poops it's poop can be used. Organic matter, grass clippings, trash even, general decay. All makes methane. There are even companies who make, sell or install methane making systems. To answer your question, not as much as you think. Heck if you have a septic system you also have free energy venting right out of it. Ww1 farmers used 275 gallon oil drum and filled them with the poop soup and let the gas fill homemade bladders then would hook them to tractors, trucks, and even to the car for the sunday rid to church. All powered by poop. I will dig up some links.


OK, will look for the links when you find them. I'm gonna have goats, pigs, chickens, ducks, and maybe rabbits, at the BOL, plus, of course, the septic tank. Might be worth it to put in a small methane recovery system, and another backup generator running off the methane. I'm a BIG proponent of "overkill!!" I do NOT want to be without "power," under any circumstances!!
:2thumb:


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

An the beauty of methane digesters is the left over slurry is great fertilizer


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## RedBeard (May 8, 2017)

Tirediron said:


> An the beauty of methane digesters is the left over slurry is great fertilizer


Tirediron is on the money with being great fert and that's the name i couldn't think of it, methane digester.

Smallscale:
http://www.biofermenergy.com/references/allen-farms-small-scale-digester/

Smaller scale:
http://www.motherearthnews.com/diy/home-methane-digester-zmaz75zwar


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## RedBeard (May 8, 2017)

Here is a home unit that can be bought. Don't know price.https://homebiogas.com/

Another large scale system with some good numbers
http://www.nationalhogfarmer.com/mag/farming_hog_farm_converts


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Tirediron said:


> An the beauty of methane digesters is the left over slurry is great fertilizer


How about we combine the best of both worlds --Aerobic septic system and Anaerobic system. A little bit more in construction costs but benefits could payoff in the long run.









What do you all think?


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

RedBeard said:


> Here is a home unit that can be bought. Don't know price.https://homebiogas.com/
> Another large scale system with some good numbers
> http://www.nationalhogfarmer.com/mag/farming_hog_farm_converts


Great links....Thanks! Got 'em tucked away. Looks like a very good "back-up the back-up" method....just have to figure out the right "size" to get!! Goats, chickens, ducks, pigs, maybe rabbits...gonna be a fair amount of "poop!" Maybe not nearly as much as with cattle, but still, we're just talking about a BOL here with, at most two people in residence! And, like I said, I'm a firm believer in overkill....I DO NOT ever want to be without power!! :2thumb::beercheer:


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## AGK67 (Jul 8, 2017)

I do not quite understand what is "natural gas" in America, but I'll try to write a couple of thoughts ...
In Russia, gas is sold by the magistrale (Methane) and liquid (Propane)

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To estimate the costs of the family for gas, in Construction (not only in Russia) it is customary to count the cost of 1 kWh that you get when burning fuel.
In calculation the specific heat of combustion of fuel, density and efficiency of a boiler, and also heat losses of a building is put.
For example, given the geographical location of America, I would have thought that a heating of 10m2 would require 1.3 kWh in the north of America
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I can completely calculate the heating costs, taking into account the design features, but for Russia ... Although, if we find similarities (physics is the same in all countries, but people use different measures of weights and volumes), we can do this for America .


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Methane is 'natural' gas. It is formed naturally and is naturally released into the air around the world including the oceans. Natural gas is great but can only really be delivered by pipe line. There are no residential natural gas storage tanks that I have ever heard of. Natural gas is now being shipped across the ocean by boat but is is a very poor delivery system. It takes very specialized boats and they lose part of every load during shipment. There are no trucks that deliver natural gas to your home.
Propane is easily shipped, stored, and delivered. Propane can can stored almost indefinitely without going bad. From a prepper stand point, natural gas (if you have access to a pipeline) while cheaper now will not work in a grid down situation. It has to be pumped through those gas lines. While you can have a stock pile of propane in tanks on your property to last you for a very long time. At my last house I had enough propane stored for two years of normal operation. (I am currently looking for tanks to buy for my current house)
Many gas appliances are designed to easily transition from natural to propane or back again. This often involves changing the jets or orifices in the appliance (but not always).


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## AGK67 (Jul 8, 2017)

America sells shale gas through the ocean, which is METHANE, but the cost of its extraction and sale is more expensive than the natural gas METAN, about 5 times!
-------------------------------------------------- -----
Liquefied propane gas is more expensive than any METHANE !!!!
In fact, it is not just propane, but a propane-butane mixture.
The more butane in the mixture, the lower the temperature it withstands in winter, but has a low calorific value ...
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Gas stoves are actually calculated differently for METAN and PROPANE, as different combustion temperatures. The nozzles of gas stoves are sold in stores so that they can be replaced.


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## RedBeard (May 8, 2017)

AGK67 said:


> America sells shale gas through the ocean, which is METHANE, but the cost of its extraction and sale is more expensive than the natural gas METAN, about 5 times!
> -------------------------------------------------- -----
> Liquefied propane gas is more expensive than any METHANE !!!!
> In fact, it is not just propane, but a propane-butane mixture.
> ...


They cut propane with butane during the winter, yes but summer it goes back to propane. You can tell the difference in the flame between the two.


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## AGK67 (Jul 8, 2017)

RedBeard said:


> They cut propane with butane during the winter, yes but summer it goes back to propane. You can tell the difference in the flame between the two.


Quite right


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