# Lyme disease



## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

I posted this in the regional North East section but want to post it with a different question here in this section.

CDC describes Lyme disease as:


> a multisystem disease that occurs in North America, Europe, and Asia. In the United States, the etiologic agent is Borrelia burgdorferi sensu stricto, a spirochete transmitted to humans by infected Ixodes scapularis and I. pacificus ticks. The majority of patients with Lyme disease develop a characteristic rash, erythema migrans (EM), accompanied by symptoms of fever, malaise, fatigue, headache, myalgia, or arthralgia. Other manifestations of infection can include arthritis, carditis, and neurologic deficits. Lyme disease can be treated successfully with standard antibiotic regimens.


Imagine needing to survive and feeling like you have the flu all the time. And don't be fooled by the "can be treated" line, Lyme can be treated but if its not caught early it can be exceedingly hard to "cure." So without readily available medical care, lab tests, and vast supplies of antibiotics chances are a bite from an infected tick may lead to your death, not from Lyme but from starvation caused by incapacitating illness.

So... my question is this? Anyone have any thoughts on what to do post-SHTF if you find yourself bitten by a tick?

Currently is there a lab test for Lyme?

Without access to a test and with limited anti-biotics how would you treat Lyme-like symptoms?

Also is there a symptom or constellation of symptoms the clearly demonstrate that a patient has Lyme?


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## ras1219como (Jan 15, 2013)

First remove the tick being sure to also remove the head. If you leave the head in it can get infected. There are several ways to remove ticks but I prefer the grab and pull method. After removal swab with alcohol and dab on anti itch cream. It's best to check for ticks after each outing. Have someone help you look. Be sure to check in "hot spots" behind the knees, under arms, groin area, belt line, bra line, and in your hair. The little buggers gravitate to warm places. And be sure to look for seed ticks too...they're tiny and can be hard to spot.

Not all ticks carry Lyme disease. I was always taught that if a tick had white spots on its back it was the type that could carry Lyme disease. I have no idea if this is true but it's what the older folks told me when I was a kid. Your location will impact your exposure rate. Some areas have higher instances of Lyme disease. I grew up in an area heavily infested with ticks and chiggers. I've probably had several dozen tick bites in my life time and I've never gotten sick. I also don't know anyone from my area that's gotten sick. That doesn't mean the disease isn't present it just may not be prevalent.


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## 8thDayStranger (Jan 30, 2013)

I think it's just deer ticks that carry it. I could be wrong. Ticks suck though. One time I had three on "the jewels" and let me tell you, that was not fun. That's an itch you can't scratch.









Deer tick photos^^


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

I believe you are correct that deer ticks are the only ones that carry Lyme. I know very well what they look like. Removing the tick is easy, my question is how to deal with the potential for Lyme.

Anyone have any thoughts on what to do post-SHTF if you find yourself bitten by a tick? 

Currently is there a lab test for Lyme? 

Without access to a test and with limited anti-biotics how would you treat Lyme-like symptoms? 

Also is there a symptom or constellation of symptoms the clearly demonstrate that a patient has Lyme?


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## ras1219como (Jan 15, 2013)

I would say post shtf treat as you would normally until you have reason to believe you've been infected.

I believe there is a blood test that is used to diagnose Lyme disease. I doubt post shtf there would be any available testing.


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## CulexPipiens (Nov 17, 2010)

Lymes doesn't happen when the tick bites you. It has to stay buried in your flesh for, I believe, something like 24 hours before the disease can be tranmitted. If you are in an area at risk, twice a day checks would probably be enough. Then again the small ticks are usually listed as about the size of a "period" so it may not be easy to find them. I've pulled many ticks off of myself and I've never had Lymes. There are multiple tests for it, the "Western Blot" is one of the better ones although when I last got tested for it I think the price (paid by insurance) was around $500 per test.

A number of years ago I got a mysterious illness. Extreme neck pain. I could not turn my head side to side without very intense pain. Also had fever (96 up to almost 104 fluctuating back and forth) and chills, a headache so painful that simply coughing felt like taking a sledge hammer to my face and exhaustion to the point I was sleeping 16 hours a day and barely aware of what was going on the other 8. This whole thing lasted exactly 2 weeks and then ended just as fast as it started. A day later I woke up to extreme joint pain. I could barely walk, couldn't lift things, etc. This lasted exactly 3 weeks, then went away. Next day all the original symptoms were back, again for two weeks. Then 3 more of arthritis (joint pain). Each cycle was just a little less severe than the previous one. It went on for almost a year before the events started spacing further and further apart.

Now, four years later I still have occasional relapses although they are very mild by comparison.

Just prior to all of this I had been in the woods and had pulled ticks off me so Lymes was the natural assumption. Three different test all said no. Also no bullseye rash. In all I had over a dozen x-rays, urine samples, cat scans, EKG, an ultrasound and in excess of 50 blood draws with over 80 tests run. Everyone came back negative. Cytomegalo Virus - no. Human Parvo - no. Lymes - no, the full suite of Herpes variants - no. HIV - no. Rhuematoid Arthrits - no. Lupus - no. Fibromylagia - no. And on and on and on. Even stuff (like the STDs) where there was no reason (lifestyle, etc.) to expect that I had them, they still tested for. Everything was a negative.

I saw 5 "normal" family doctors, 1 ER doctor, 1 Rhuematologist and 2 infectsion disease specialists (think House). None ever came up with anything that ever panned out. All finally just threw up their hands and said "Some kind of virus. Just let it run its course." Yeah, nice diagnosis... not.

I guess I was lucky in that I got this when medical and support systems were still in place. Has we been in a collapse/shtf situation, I had zero capability to care for myself and when I was in the arthritis stage there is no way I could have defended myself let alone anyone else.

So, yeah, if you get Lymes or any of the other plethora of diseases and viruses out there you could really be screwed... or you better have a good support group to help you through it. A lone wolf, in this situation, has a high chance of being a dead wolf. From what I read about Lymes, a heavy dose of anitbiotics early on is supposed to give you a good chance. The longer you have it with out treatment the worse your prognosis becomes.

Good info is available at the CDC. http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/faq/index.html


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## CulexPipiens (Nov 17, 2010)

Padre said:


> I believe you are correct that deer ticks are the only ones that carry Lyme. I know very well what they look like. Removing the tick is easy, my question is how to deal with the potential for Lyme.
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts on what to do post-SHTF if you find yourself bitten by a tick?
> *Remove it asap.*
> ...


See http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/faq/index.html for more info.


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## Transplant (Jan 10, 2013)

Padre said:


> I believe you are correct that deer ticks are the only ones that carry Lyme. I know very well what they look like. Removing the tick is easy, my question is how to deal with the potential for Lyme.
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts on what to do post-SHTF if you find yourself bitten by a tick?
> 
> ...


Yes there is a lab test for Lyme's however insurance does not cover it and it runs about $1,500. Our daughter-in-law has Lyme's and it is costing them a small fortune. Insurance companies do not cover Lyme's. According to them there is no such thing. She has one of the larger well know insurance companies and they have fought tooth and nail to get the insurance to cover it but they will not cover the treatments.

The problem with Lyme's is you don't know you have until your body is fighting against itself. You usually have it 7-10 years before it is diagnosed. Next comes the hard part...finding a doctor that will diagnose you with Lyme's. Because it is not covered under insurance doctors will not test for it so it will be misdiagnosed.

The antibotics are killing her immune system. She had developed allergies to some of the meds she is taking not only that but food allergies as well. She can not handle citrus fruits now, or gluten, she can not digest some proteins all because her body is fighting against itself.

Lyme's is a nasty disease and I would not wish it on anyone one.


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## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

There is more than one test for Lyme. The one normally used is not expensive but it has both false positives and false negatives. The treatment for Lyme is cheap and effective, Doxycycle, 2xday for 10 days. Doxycycle is used for other stuff so you might want to have some on hand. If you develop bullseye rash it is a no brainer. There are some other similar diseases, anaplasmoisis being just one.


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## Transplant (Jan 10, 2013)

swjohnsey said:


> There is more than one test for Lyme. The one normally used is not expensive but it has both false positives and false negatives. The treatment for Lyme is cheap and effective, Doxycycle, 2xday for 10 days. Doxycycle is used for other stuff so you might want to have some on hand. If you develop bullseye rash it is a no brainer. There are some other similar diseases, anaplasmoisis being just one.


I am pretty sure if they had caught it 7-8 years ago when she was bitten it would have been different but like. That is just her personal experience. She was diagnosed last May and they were married in August.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

Lyme disease is pretty awful. The best way to treat it is early diagnosis and antibiotics. As previously mentioned false negatives are common. I have a friend that contracted the disease at a young age (around 10-12 they believe). It was misdiagnosed until she was in her mid 20's. By then the infection was in all three cores and the neurological damage was in full swing. She was diagnosed with every thing from anxiety and depression to everything else under the sun before they started testing for lyme. The treatments are expensive, the symptoms imic many other conditions, and the tests are unreliable. Insurance doesnt cover most of lyme treatments for these reasons. To easy for them to wiggle out. Fortunately my friend comes from an affluent family or she would be screwed. Catching it early its as simple as a round of doxycyclin. My friend was on intravenous antibiotics for six months that late in the game and still cant drive due to damage done to the optic nerve. When we last deployed in the military we were given a year supply of doxycyclin to prevent diseases like this and malaria. Instructed to take it everyday for the year deployment. You could either do this or just take a round after every tick bite I suppose. Dont know if it would work but if I didnt have access to antibiotics and this was a concern I may consider regular doses of oil of oregano and quinine in the hopes It would stave off the worst of it. Prevention is the key. Wear hats always. Military deet (in the little orange bottles) applied to clothes and allowed to dry. Then less toxic bug spray for skin. Usually dont like that many chemicals on me but it would be better than trying to live with lyme disease in a world without modern medical care in my opinion.


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## GroovyMike (Feb 25, 2010)

Peremythrin on your clothes kills ticks on contact for weeks. You can buy the stuff as a spray or laundry wash and look up Nosilife clothing.

OTC doxicycline can be had for pets in a brand called Birdbiotic.

Be aware that Lyme does not always manifest with a rash. If you remove the tick within 24 hours there is little likelihood of transfer since it must suck blood and recirculate it from its body to yours before Lyme is transmitted. But if you do get body ache, joint ache, or a rash - it is DEADLY SERIOUS. Treat it with Docy ASAP for at least 2 consecutive days. Lyme will kill you if left untreated andthe longer you wait before treatment the harder it is to treat.

Catch it fast and 2 pills kills it in your body. Let it go for days and you have to treat for 10+ days. Ignore it for a couple weeks and you will be in pain for months. Ignore it for months or have it treated as something else and you will get worse and worse in greater and greater pain until you die. It is serious.

If you are on an antibiotic it will mask the Lyme so the blood test will come back negative. A negative result ona Lyme test means NOTHING. Retest and treat it anyway. If you find an imbedded tick - go to your doctor and insist on a dose of doxycycline. If they won't give you one - go to another doctor! Treat it aggressively and as soon as possible!

Docs from non-Lyme areas often fail to recognize it.

here are some links for more research:

http://www.lymediseaseassociation.org/

http://lymedisease.org/

http://www.lymenet.org/


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

OK, great topic and time for me to chime in! My wife has had Lyme for 16 years. She lived in East LYME CT for years. I have several friends with lyme and they all deal with it pretty well. 

Lyme can be constant or come in flare ups. My wife has had 4 major known flareups. She now has Lyme arthritis. She handles her tough times with joint pains with raspberry tea and hot baths. She has been on doxy several times and the Lyme specialist OD'd her on it the last time. That ate away at her stomach and destroyed her enamel. Let me say that again, the Doxy destroyed her enamel. She has upper dentures because of it. This has been verified by a couple docs and dentists. Speaking of docs, it may be hard to find to find one willing to even admit there is such a thing as lyme. Many will not order the test (which is a simple blood test, and covered by her insurance growing up) instead rather treating the symptoms than the cause. Probably akin to how fybromyalgia was treated as a psychosis for so long. I can attest to this how I was in the hospital admitted at one point with lyme symptoms and my wife could not convince the doc to test me. She later told me the concerns otherwise I would have insisted.

Your OTC painkiller of choice will help the soreness and she said ginko (sp?) will help the memory problems.

WARNING WARNING WARNING quack science to follow!
We have some good friends that live in NE CT where 6/8 have Lyme. The dad of the family was a nuclear reactor tech on subs and continues that work in a plant. So he has some physics background. He built a Rife machine (sounds psychosomatic to me but I will describe anyways) which sends mini- EMPs to the joints relaxing the inflamed areas and "driving" the Lyme from the joints. It takes a week of feeling bad then much better. They swear by it, my wife has used it, as well as my m-i-l. If there is interest, I can see if I can get a parts list or something. But this is also a family that will use a taser on bee stings at the lowest setting to break up the venom into proteins. They are a strange group, but with the caveat that rife technology has been discredited by medicine, and is more of a home remedy, I can help people if they are interested.


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## drfacefixer (Mar 8, 2013)

At my hospital, Our infectious disease chief pretty much follows Uptodate guidelines. use prophylactic antibiotics only if you are in a lyme disease endemic area, but always remove ticks orcourse and get to know the identification. 

Ixodes scapularis, also known as the Blacklegged tick or deer tick, is the sole competent vector of B. burgdorferi in the hyperendemic regions of the eastern United States. Other Ixodes species are the vectors of Lyme disease in certain other regions: I. pacificus in western North America

scapularis become active in mid-May, peak in activity in June, and become less active during late July. Lyme disease onset occurs mainly during the summer months of June, July, and August, since the incubation period between the tick bite and the onset of Lyme disease is approximately two to three weeks 

Borrelia spp are rarely transmitted within the first 48 hours of tick attachment. As an example, a study of Lyme disease prevention found that among subjects bitten by nymphal ticks in whom the duration of attachment could be estimated, the risk of Lyme disease was 25 percent if the tick had fed for 72 hours compared with 0 percent if the tick had fed for a shorter period

Infectious Diseases Society of America (IDSA) guidelines that recommend antibiotic prophylaxis only in patients who meet all of the following criteria 

■Attached tick identified as an adult or nymphal Ixodes scapularis tick (deer tick).
■Tick is estimated to have been attached for ≥36 hours (by degree of engorgement or time of exposure).
■Prophylaxis is begun within 72 hours of tick removal.
■Local rate of infection of ticks with B. burgdorferi is ≥20 percent (these rates of infection have been shown to occur in parts of New England, parts of the mid-Atlantic States, and parts of Minnesota and Wisconsin).
■Doxycycline is not contraindicated (ie, the patient is not <8 years of age, pregnant, or lactating).


Only doxycycline a (single 200mg dose) has been shown to be effective in reducing development of the disease process. 

Hope this alieviates some concerns. Buddy checks are awesome. member ticks like warm moist places covered in hair. Although they'll latch on most anywhere.


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## drfacefixer (Mar 8, 2013)

Here is the incidence broken down by state. If you aren't in a state that has a low incidense , the risk of having an issue with even one dose of doxy outweighs the risk of using it.

http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/chartstables/reportedcases_statelocality.html

Delaware, maine, wisconsin, and CT - tick check everytime you brush your teeth.


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## GroovyMike (Feb 25, 2010)

drfacefixer said:


> scapularis become active in mid-May, peak in activity in June, and become less active during late July. Lyme disease onset occurs mainly during the summer months of June, July, and August, .....


Let me give you a little more detail - when ticks are active depends entirely on your local climate and the weather that particular day. I've had ticks attached in March - December and don't trust them in January or February either!

As for where Lyme carrying tocks are - Lyme has been reported in every state in the US. Here are the state by state stats:

http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/chartstables/reportedcases_statelocality.html

This map may give you a better picture than the one posted above:

http://module.lymediseaseassociation.net/Maps/


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## drfacefixer (Mar 8, 2013)

Its reported in every state sure, but that doesn't give you incidence and probability of a tick carrying. If you treated, every tick bite my dog would have probably grown up eating more antibiotics than dog food.

For example, WA has had 281 confirmed cases in the last 21 years according to the CDC. It would be a horrible idea to run an assay or western blot on every person that showed up with a tick bite of questionable duration. Where as in CT or delaware the incidence or risk of contracting from a tick bite is much higher. Pictures are pretty look at the biostats.


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## GroovyMike (Feb 25, 2010)

Stats are the first link. Having lived with Lyme myself and with a loved one still adversely affected years after the infection I can not over emphasize that doing absolutely everything possible to avoid contracting it and vigorously treating any suspected infection are of the highest priority. To ignore it and hope for the best is literally gambling with your life. A low likelihood of infection is more than offset by the dealy consequences of infection. Not treating for Lyme after a tick bite is analogous to having unprotected sex with strangers. You know the danger. You know that ignoring the danger is fatal. If you ignore the danger, you are a fool.


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## drfacefixer (Mar 8, 2013)

I completely agree with you groovey. If I got bite by a tick and found it after a questionable amount of time, I would write my script for 200mg of doxy without issue because I live in an area where the ticks have a decent chance to carry. If i were in colorado were there were only 13 cases over the last 21 years... I wouldn't worry nearly as much about it but i might consider abx but I would cut short my backpacking trip if I didn't have doxy. And if I knew the tick hadn't been attached for a significant amount of time, I would probably be more concerned with the side effects of the abx. The reason for discussing incidence is two fold:

1. To give you an insight into the decision making process and infectious disease authority your doctor would use

2. To give those people that live in endemic areas, reason to consider this and those that live in low incidence area some hard facts so they don't waste to much energy focusing on something that has very low yield. 
(ie...Padre would benefit from spending time learning about tick borne vectors, circumference and spreading of rashes, other signs and symptoms as well as onset times. Treatments, both prophylactic and long term. That could eat up a whole lot of his time, but its worth it since hes likley to deal with it, even if the world peacefully turns on and on forever. It will ease his mind being in the great outdoors of New England. ) Some one in Colorado or Montana don't need to freak out. They have a better chance getting killed in a car accident. To bring it back to your analogy: People in higher incidence areas would be having sex in whore houses.... Colorado, Montana and a few other states snuck into a dormitory that were all the gals are virgins.


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## GroovyMike (Feb 25, 2010)

fair enough drfacefixer 

My son and I went for a walk Saturday (March 30) in and both had ticks crawling on us by the time we got home. There is still snow several inches deep in the shaded woods. Those little buggers come out early!


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## GroovyMike (Feb 25, 2010)

Nearly lost my Mom last week to a tick born bacterial (Ehrlichiosis) menangitis. 6 days she couldn't even keep water down. Without the IV she'd be dead now. It will take months for her to recover. She now needs 24 hour care.

Poughkepsie news reports 50% of ticks in southern NY state carry Encephalitis and it transmits in as little as 15 minutes.

Read his too:

http://healthland.time.com/2013/07/19/theres-a-new-disease-spread-by-ticks-and-its-not-lyme/

You can not take this serious enough. It is DEADLY.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

Remove tick ASAP, then I'd put Bactroban on it. I would then give a dose of doxycycline. If a bullseye rash presented, I'd give doxycycline for 4 weeks. As with everything, prevention is key. Doxycycline can be obtained for birds & fish if by no other means.  

There are tests for Lyme disease but it's my understanding their not very accurate in early detection.

Culexpipens- sounds like you had West Nile encephalitis.


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## GroovyMike (Feb 25, 2010)

A couple companies make cloths that are supposed to repel or even kill ticks - permethrin is embedded right into the cloth, and doesn't wash out. Brands I know of are Insectshield and Nosilife


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## GroovyMike (Feb 25, 2010)

local news for me - a second fatal tick bite this year in this area:

http://www.fox23news.com/news/local...tially-fatal-tick/Cew3IZxQ_UCbim3KMkgXug.cspx

http://www.news10.com/story/22966845/one-saratoga-resident-died-this-year-from-tick-borne-virus

http://www.fox23news.com/mostpopula...lness-in-the-area/j1Oee7Cu9kmIZwTXAfbYeg.cspx

The first I was aware of was from Erhlicia (bacteria) which caused organ failure in a 71 year old woman. This one was a viral infcetion. The scary thing is that antibiotics dont work on a viral infection and they can be transmitted to your from the tick in minutes not hours.

Be careful out there folks.


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## GroovyMike (Feb 25, 2010)

http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/sci...ng-symptoms/DP82z7oYLdfq8wEQZ7ekaL/story.html


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