# Keeping an eye on the economy



## readytogo

One of the shtf events on the minds of many is a financial collapse and we all know that it has happen before but we also know that money is the root of all that`s evil and that it was greed and gluttony that broke the camel’s back, if you follow financial news you would have notice the much publicize case of BNP Paribas to pay $8.9bn US fine, the bank is accused of breaking sanctions against Iran, Sudan and Cuba or Barclays shares fall 6.5% on fraud accusation or shares in Bulgarian banks fell sharply for the second day in a row there are speculation that a run on deposits at the country's fourth-biggest bank, Corporate Commercial Bank, could spread to others or Japan consumer price growth at 32-year high at the same time, the country is trying to rein in its public debt - which at nearly 230% of its gross domestic product (GDP) is the highest among industrialized nations. Our own US GDP shrinks 2.9% in first quarter consumer spending - which is responsible for more than two-thirds of US economic growth - increased by 1% in the quarter, rather than the 3.1% rate as first estimated. Trade was also a bigger drag on the economy than previously thought, with exports falling by 8.9% rather than a previously estimated 6%. This shouldn`t be a big surprise to the big heads after all is very clear that, We the consumer, are trying to saved a buck or two and I don`t know about many out there but I only wear one pair of shoes at a time, how many do I really need?????.


----------



## tsrwivey

Money is not the root of all that's evil, sin is. LOVE of money is the root of all kinds of evil. An often misquoted verse. Back to your regularly scheduled programming


----------



## goshengirl

tsrwivey said:


> Money is not the root of all that's evil, sin is. LOVE of money is the root of all kinds of evil. An often misquoted verse. Back to your regularly scheduled programming


You beat me to it.


----------



## BillS

The economy is much worse than most people realize. GDP is calculated by:

consumer spending + investment + exports-imports + government spending

Think about it: The government spends $3.5 trillion and it's counted as GDP. $1 trillion comes from the Fed creating money out of thin air but it's still counted as GDP. It's like during the housing boom. All the homes that were built were considered part of GDP even when the builder couldn't sell them and the banks foreclosed on them.

And then you have all kinds of insane adjustments to GDP that are meant to make the numbers look better. Like the value of owner occupied rent. In other words, I bought a home. I live in it. The rental value is $700 a month. The government adds $8400 to GDP.

John Williams has an excellent free report on how the government reports and distorts GDP.

http://www.shadowstats.com/article/gross_domestic_product


----------



## PurpleHeartJarhead

A financial collapse, more than any other scenario, to include an attack on our soil by another belligerent nation, is the reason I prep. A global depression is coming, the weight of this debt is not sustainable.

Just my $0.02.


----------



## goshengirl

BillS said:


> The economy is much worse than most people realize. GDP is calculated by:


_And_ we don't include the cost of food and gas in with the cost of living numbers....

_And_ we don't include people who've been unemployed so long they've stopped looking in the unemployment numbers...

It's all just wool over our eyes.


----------



## PurpleHeartJarhead

goshengirl said:


> _And_ we don't include the cost of food and gas in with the cost of living numbers....


I mean, who needs food or fuel anyway, right?

A dirty little trick to further the false sense of security that our economy is "ok" and inflation is minimal.

Food and fuel prices, idiots, are what is causing people to be more careful with money as most with any sense see their shrinking disposable incomes more and more devoted to food and fuel.


----------



## invision

goshengirl said:


> _And_ we don't include the cost of food and gas in with the cost of living numbers....
> 
> _And_ we don't include people who've been unemployed so long they've stopped looking in the unemployment numbers...
> 
> It's all just wool over our eyes.


Ahh, and the price of gas is about to go up $0.15 per gallon because of a bi-partisan bill that will be pushed through before October because the Dept of Transportation is out of $ in Oct...

Yep, I prep not for EMP, Nukes, or any other reason, solely because we are headed for the cliff, and it will be here by 2017-2018 at the latest...

This space for rent.


----------



## ARDon

goshengirl said:


> _And_ we don't include the cost of food and gas in with the cost of living numbers....
> 
> _And_ we don't include people who've been unemployed so long they've stopped looking in the unemployment numbers...
> 
> It's all just wool over our eyes.


I couldnt agree more with both of ya's. We are reaching the tipping point of crisis. There is a very deep gnawing in the pit of my stomach telling me that there is something very, very wrong this time. U.S. economy have been destroyed by an orgy of government, corporate and individual greed that has gone on for decades. We have untruthful elected officials that claim their are for the people. Unfortunately the employment situation is showing no signs of turning around. Over the past couple of years we have seen the American Dream in reversed, and Americans "forced" to take a helping hand from the federal government because of bad management in the federal level.


----------



## Jimbo777

How is the economy doing?

A young guy who works part time where I do, told me that the U.S. Navy is not even hiring.

Other than that aprox. 30% of the population don't have a job right now.
This includes all the illegals, drug dealers, hookers, homeless and retired people.

J


----------



## musketjim

This is why I prep and why my preps include a lot of skills training and plant ident. I store a lot of seeds, food and ammo. I can't eat gold so it doesn't do any good to plant it and I imagine gold doesn't pattern to well in reloads either.


----------



## bkt

musketjim said:


> This is why I prep and why my preps include a lot of skills training and plant ident. I store a lot of seeds, food and ammo. I can't eat gold so it doesn't do any good to plant it and I imagine gold doesn't pattern to well in reloads either.


All true, but if you plan on living through the financial upset to come, it might be nice to have a store of wealth for after the dust settles. I have plenty of firearms and ammo, food, water, meds, consumables, etc. but that doesn't mean I don't have precious metals, too.

This is a great thread - it's good to read so many people see what's happening. But a big concern is that the U.S. is not Zimbabwe or Argentina; if our dollar craps out totally, other countries will be impacted. This can only lead to unrest. Today, we see China and Japan and China and Vietnam rattling sabres, Russia and Ukraine, Iran/Iraq/Syria...and all the while the West is pretty much broke.

Financial crises have led to war before. We're looking at possibly the largest financial crisis the world has ever seen. Do the math.


----------



## goshengirl

bkt said:


> Financial crises have led to war before. We're looking at possibly the largest financial crisis the world has ever seen. Do the math.


You know, that's one thing that I don't really think of, but definitely need to. I tend to be focused on the micro effects of a collapse and forget about the macro. If we go down, we'll take a lot more than ourselves with us. That won't be well-received, to say the least.


----------



## tsrwivey

It makes no difference to me what the government includes or doesn't include in their figures, I don't believe them anyway. Same for Walstreet. We pulled almost everything out of the stock market 6 months before the crash in 2008 & watched the disaster take place. It was too close for comfort & we'll never put our money back in. Integrity, honesty, & fairness is largely gone. I'll keep my money where I know for a fact what's going on with it.


----------



## BillM

*Hyperinflation*

Hyperinflation will kickoff the coming financial collapse.

This happened in Argentina in the 70's. They still have not recovered to what was their norm before hyperinflation.

The price of everything doubled every two weeks until their money was totally worthless.

Employers attempted to keep pace with inflation but when the paycheck was losing half it's value from Friday until the following week, people tried to immediately purchase something that had an intrinsic value to resell at it's inflated value a week or two later.

It was pandemonium !

A can of beans that cost .75 cents would inflate to a value of $ 192.00 in six months.

Nothing the government can do will stop hyperinflation once it starts. It will run it's course until total collapse.

Gold , silver and precious stones will transfer wealth and food , ammo and other necessary items will be good for barter and to sustain you until financial order is restored by implementation of a new system.

Be wary of any currency not backed 100% by gold or silver.

The first couple of currencies the government proffers are likely to be fiat currencies .

Hold onto your gold and silver until they offer a gold and silver backed money.


----------



## BillS

musketjim said:


> This is why I prep and why my preps include a lot of skills training and plant ident. I store a lot of seeds, food and ammo. I can't eat gold so it doesn't do any good to plant it and I imagine gold doesn't pattern to well in reloads either.


So you don't see the value in owning money??? Gold and silver ARE money. Fiat paper isn't money. It's a scam. I don't understand the mental block some people seem to have when it comes to precious metals. Some of it is clearly sour grapes because they can't afford it. Gold and silver are money. They're been money for thousands of years. Owning them means you can buy food and gasoline regardless of the prices for as long as the places that sell them remain open.

Right now, you can buy a loaf of bread with the money you'd get from selling one or two silver dimes. It should be that way even when a loaf of bread costs $75.

I have most of my savings in gold and silver instead of cash because I know it will still be worth something in the future. Most likely, when price suppression ends, we'll see 500% or more increases in their value.


----------



## Genevieve

PurpleHeartJarhead said:


> A financial collapse, more than any other scenario, to include an attack on our soil by another belligerent nation, is the reason I prep. A global depression is coming, the weight of this debt is not sustainable.
> 
> Just my $0.02.


exact same reason why we prepare also. I've been watching the price of things going up because of so called valid reason such as oh there was a freeze and theres a plant virus or a drought or...... and then I watched as the prices never came back down after all the "problems" went away. That is another reason why we prepare, to help us sustain through the ever increasing prices.

I have to say all of the information in the op is just a foreign language to me. I hear or read that stuff and it's like I have no idea what it all means like I'm listening to someone speak in a foreign language.
All I know is that prices are going up continuously, crime is rising and now includes more stealing of foods and things like diapers and recyclable metals, people are not working and more people are on handouts than are working and that can't continue without something collapsing and after reading where insiders have admitted that the stock market is rigged I know it will collapse eventually.

We keep no extra money in the bank. What we do have in there is already allocated to our bills and mortgage to the same bank which has been in business since the 1800's here.
So all we can do is wait, watch and hope we've prepared well enough to weather any storm that comes


----------



## tsrwivey

BillS said:


> So you don't see the value in owning money??? Gold and silver ARE money. Fiat paper isn't money. It's a scam. I don't understand the mental block some people seem to have when it comes to precious metals. Some of it is clearly sour grapes because they can't afford it. Gold and silver are money. They're been money for thousands of years. Owning them means you can buy food and gasoline regardless of the prices for as long as the places that sell them remain open.


Let me enlighten you. I have no mental block & I can well afford them. I choose not to have PMs because the prices are all over the place, historically they're not a good investment, & the average Joe knows squat about them. There are other ways of protecting wealth.

If I live through currency collapse, the odds that I'm going to convert my wealth back into a paper currency again is slim to none. I'm a once bitten twice shy kinda gal.


----------



## bkt

goshengirl said:


> You know, that's one thing that I don't really think of, but definitely need to. I tend to be focused on the micro effects of a collapse and forget about the macro. If we go down, we'll take a lot more than ourselves with us. That won't be well-received, to say the least.


_The greatest problem we have is misinformation. People simply do not comprehend why and how the economic policies of the post-war era are imploding. This whole agenda of socialism has sold a Utopian idea that the State is there for the people yet it is run by lawyers following their own self-interest. The pensions created for those in government drive the cost of government up exponentially with time. The political forces blame the rich and this merely creates a class warfare with no resolution for the future. Even confiscating all the wealth of the so-called rich will not sustain the system. Consequently, we just have to crash and burn and start all over again._

That's the first paragraph in a very brief bit of commentary from the link above. When the nanny state collapses on itself, lots and lots of dependent people are going to get very angry very quickly and probably blame - and go after - all the wrong people for their plight. Every country will have their share of problems and degree of social unrest. But it's looking like this could be widespread and not limited to a couple countries.


----------



## bkt

tsrwivey said:


> Let me enlighten you. I have no mental block & I can well afford them. I choose not to have PMs because the prices are all over the place, historically they're not a good investment, & the average Joe knows squat about them.


The value of a fraction of an ounce of silver to a bushel of apples or corn or potatoes has actually been fairly flat; the value of metals to other commodities is pretty stable. What has been all over the place is the value of the dollar.

The other thing to be aware of is that ALL commodity prices are heavily manipulated; there's no free market operating anywhere.



tsrwivey said:


> There are other ways of protecting wealth.


I'm not disagreeing with you, but would you mind elaborating? I've thought about land, but you can't really own it anymore.



tsrwivey said:


> If I live through currency collapse, the odds that I'm going to convert my wealth back into a paper currency again is slim to none. I'm a once bitten twice shy kinda gal.


I wouldn't convert all of my metal back to paper currency unless there were a compelling reason to do so...like I wanted to buy something and they only took the printed stuff and I had no other means of income.

You're certainly free to do what works for you!  I'm mostly curious about preserving wealth in ways other than with metals.


----------



## Freyadog

I know this is going to sound stupid, well, maybe just ignorant to the fact.

I see where a lot of folks are buying gold and junk? silver. We have a few dollars that we pull out of the bank each week after Thumper gets paid and I get the bills handled.

Where do you purchase these metals? Pawn shop? Broker?

I feel the need to do something with this paper money but do not know how to start.

Any help and advise will be greatly appreciated.


----------



## bkt

Coin stores usually carry junk silver and generic silver rounds and bars. When buying non-sovereign generic bullion, make sure the weight and purity are clearly marked.

providentmetals.com and apmex.com are two places I've bought from online and which I would recommend.

No matter where you buy from, make sure you know the spot price of silver and the spot price of gold before deciding to buy. You can expect to pay a few dollars over spot per ounce for silver and somewhat more per ounce over gold.


----------



## Geek999

Freyadog said:


> I know this is going to sound stupid, well, maybe just ignorant to the fact.
> 
> I see where a lot of folks are buying gold and junk? silver. We have a few dollars that we pull out of the bank each week after Thumper gets paid and I get the bills handled.
> 
> Where do you purchase these metals? Pawn shop? Broker?
> 
> I feel the need to do something with this paper money but do not know how to start.
> 
> Any help and advise will be greatly appreciated.


First, make sure you are where you want to be with all preps. In a true SHTF you'd be better off with trade goods than gold or silver. Gold or silver works well for high inflation but no SHTF, or if SHTF it might work after the recovery starts.

If you still have money left over after your preps, then there are either local coin shops or internet sellers that you can use.


----------



## BillM

*Good advise*



Geek999 said:


> First, make sure you are where you want to be with all preps. In a true SHTF you'd be better off with trade goods than gold or silver. Gold or silver works well for high inflation but no SHTF, or if SHTF it might work after the recovery starts.
> 
> If you still have money left over after your preps, then there are either local coin shops or internet sellers that you can use.


That is good advise.

Regarding the price of gold and silver being allover the place, it is only all over the place when compared to dollars.

Gold and silver are commodities and their price relative to other commodities is very stable.

For instance, an ounce of silver, buys the same amount of wheat that an ounce of silver bought 200 years ago.

The value of money is only relative to what it will purchase in a given commodity.

Gold , silver and precious stones, can transport a huge amount of purchasing power in a small package. They do not have to be heated , cooled or used to prevent spoilage.

They are easily hidden.

There is an exchange rate for them in every currency in the world.


----------



## readytogo

*1 Timothy 6:10*

Point Proven&#8230;&#8230;.
It seems that we are all on the same page here; the economy is a major factor on our daily lives and preparations, while politics, religion, sports, are daily mention and media publicize topics, is the economy that really makes us think and really take a hard look at ourselves and love ones, my disability has destroy many of my desires, but while employ I fear the lost of my job the most and I`m pretty sure that is the same for many out there and we all agree that government plays with the numbers but we also have to agree that we play with the numbers ourselves some lived with a month to month check because too many extras to pay for, to many little gadgets that have nothing to do with the survival of the home group and definite we can`t blame the government for that, we play the stock market because we want too ,just like buying metals or art but in reality I rather have the ownership title of food, water ,shelter, cheap transportation ,and basic tools under my name than anything else ,we lived in a modern world but it does n`t mean that I have to own every little gadget out there to enjoy it. Experian Automotive showed that the total balance of outstanding automotive loans grew from more than $682 billion in Q2 2012 to nearly $751 billion in Q2 2013. Banks increased their total dollar volume by $24 billion, followed by credit unions ($18 billion), finance companies ($16 billion) and captive finance companies ($11 billion). The balance of loans that are 30 days delinquent rose by $761 million in Q2 2013. However, on a percentage basis, delinquencies represent just 1.96 percent of the total loan balance, down from 2.05 percent in Q2 2012.This on vehicles alone, lots of money.


----------



## BillS

tsrwivey said:


> Let me enlighten you. I have no mental block & I can well afford them. I choose not to have PMs because the prices are all over the place, historically they're not a good investment, & the average Joe knows squat about them. There are other ways of protecting wealth.
> 
> If I live through currency collapse, the odds that I'm going to convert my wealth back into a paper currency again is slim to none. I'm a once bitten twice shy kinda gal.


I don't see gold and silver as an investment. I see them as hyperinflation insurance. For reasons that I've already stated.


----------



## BillS

Genevieve said:


> exact same reason why we prepare also. I've been watching the price of things going up because of so called valid reason such as oh there was a freeze and theres a plant virus or a drought or...... and then I watched as the prices never came back down after all the "problems" went away. That is another reason why we prepare, to help us sustain through the ever increasing prices.
> I have to say all of the information in the op is just a foreign language to me. I hear or read that stuff and it's like I have no idea what it all means like I'm listening to someone speak in a foreign language.
> All I know is that prices are going up continuously, crime is rising and now includes more stealing of foods and things like diapers and recyclable metals, people are not working and more people are on handouts than are working and that can't continue without something collapsing and after reading where insiders have admitted that the stock market is rigged I know it will collapse eventually.
> 
> We keep no extra money in the bank. What we do have in there is already allocated to our bills and mortgage to the same bank which has been in business since the 1800's here.
> So all we can do is wait, watch and hope we've prepared well enough to weather any storm that comes


There are a number of possible causes but these are the effects:

Food and gas will get so expensive that riots and looting will break out. Stores and gas stations will close. Most Americans will die.

Or there could be some attack on our power grid. Stores and gas stations can't operate. Most Americans will die.

It could also be triggered by a pandemic where so many people are dying that the economy collapses. Or by a limited nuclear war where 10 US cities are nuked and transporting goods across the country is much more difficult if not impossible.


----------



## besign

many more are poverty-stricken/homeless/falliing behind than the govt DARES admit, to us or the rest of the world. You tube is full of people who live "on the road", in vehicles, for instance. Millions live in tent cities hidden around the fringes of our cities, in abandoned buildings, etc.


----------



## nightwing

Well I agree with all the post but there is a bright side we will all be dead 
and in a better place if we choose.

Fear is like a disease so let us not spread it too thick.

I have faith that whatever pleases God even if it is my death is fine by me.
Face it these bodies are temp quarters and the new house is beyond any beauty I can imagine and I have seen the wonders of the world
having stayed in luxurious places and met a few royals, 
but I know what comes will be even more spectacular and it will not end and God will dry all the tears away.
I will see my family long dead and friends whom I miss very much.

Isaiah 41:10King James Version (KJV) 10 Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

I have concerns like anyone else but don't let them see you sweat.
You and I who have accepted Yeshua / Jesus as our Lord and Saviour 
are the sons and daughters of God not by works but Grace 
A gift it cannot be taken away by anyone ever ! you do not have to be a member of any specific church you do not have to be circumcised
baptism would be nice but it is not absolutely needed the proof is the thief 
that died next to Christ he admitted before God and man that he believed 
and What did Christ say?, "this day you will be with me in paradise".

Our enemies would like nothing more than to see our fear and hopelessness do not give them that pleasure because they are 
evil and destructive sons of perdition and have chosen death over life.
Hate over love and war over peace.

If you cannot see that is wrong to choose those negatives over the 
positives I am truly sorry for you but I will not bend or change 
not by my own strength but by the love of Jesus not by my will 
but by his will and not by my works but his grace.
If God is with us who can be against us.

We are suppose to be strong and not quit people will say the end is near 
or christ is there don't believe it plant your crops save money work 
do your best get married have children have faith and keep moving forward.
When Christ comes it will not be any mistaking the event but just before 
Satan will try to copy his first appearance in every way do not be deceived.
If this economy falls another will replace it if it is trade barter or 
wing nuts in a sack live love be happy laugh smile fixating on the bad 
does not help me or you keep prepping enjoy it like a hobby do not 
do it out of stress and fear but be diligent do it well do it right.

I do realize that there is a lot of my religious beliefs and thoughts 
But I do not want people to suffer like this is punishment it is not 
these are the ways we were suppose to live in the sunshine planting 
getting fresh air raising some animals or what ever suits you 
not rotting in a cubical or face stuck 24 hours a day on a computer 
playing video games or sweating the stock market we are out of balance 
too much technology and not enough theology living on force and not faith.

If you feel bad go to a doctor if you need a inoculation get them.
if you need medicine, transfusion or surgery pray and take it.
use common sense when dealing with people and your uncommon sense
when dealing with God.

This is all opinion take it or leave it all voluntary not mandatory,
Your millage may vary and the color you pick may not match your shoes 
but at least try it before asking for your money back.


----------



## BillS

readytogo said:


> This shouldn`t be a big surprise to the big heads after all is very clear that, We the consumer, are trying to saved a buck or two and I don`t know about many out there but I only wear one pair of shoes at a time, how many do I really need?????.


No, that's not it. People are spending less because they have less money to spend. You can't have a growing economy when fewer and fewer people are working.

Higher prices for food are hitting consumers at the same time many of them don't have full time jobs or their medical insurance premiums have gone way up.

Most people would spend more money if they were earning more money. I'd love to build our savings back up to $3000 and then put the rest of the money in junk silver. Maybe go out to eat a little more often.


----------



## JayJay

BillS said:


> No, that's not it. People are spending less because they have less money to spend. You can't have a growing economy when fewer and fewer people are working.
> 
> Higher prices for food are hitting consumers at the same time many of them don't have full time jobs or their medical insurance premiums have gone way up.
> 
> Most people would spend more money if they were earning more money. I'd love to build our savings back up to $3000 and then put the rest of the money in junk silver. Maybe go out to eat a little more often.


I agree with Bill--saving is not in middle class vocabulary because everything from bread/gas to education/taxes has doubled in cost.
Saving isn't in the lower class vocabulary because they are on welfare/EBT/housing assistance most of their lives and never had the opportunity or need for Finance 101.


----------



## Dakine

buying silver is HOW I save. I can put money in the safe, I can put it in envelopes for this project and that project and I can have an envelope for rainy day funds... great. And that works for me mostly. It's nice to have extra pocket cash already set aside when it's time for nephews birthday presents and random stuff but I don't like loose cash laying around. I believe in tools and assets, fiat currency is not money or wealth.

What do I never do? I never sell my guns, and I never sell my PM's. now they are savings! (I should add the caveat that I did sell all of my .38's when I got out of wheel guns and went to 9mm's)


----------



## tsrwivey

BillS said:


> No, that's not it. People are spending less because they have less money to spend. You can't have a growing economy when fewer and fewer people are working.
> 
> Higher prices for food are hitting consumers at the same time many of them don't have full time jobs or their medical insurance premiums have gone way up.


I think it's both. Many have less to spend because costs of necessary goods & services are rising faster than their income but I also think many were changed by the events of 2008. I know many that either lost their business or came real close, lost jobs they thought were secure, etc. some had done what "the experts" told them to do & had 3-6 months of expenses in savings but when at the end of that time they still haven't been able to replace the income they had previously. People who had "done everything right" & never even considered the possibility of being in real financial trouble suddenly were trying to figure out how to pay for basic necessities for their kids. They are changed. No longer do they trust the "experts" about finances. No longer do they trust that everything is gonna be alright. They are changed in a way that the Great Depression changed that generation.


----------



## Ozarker

It's still a good idea to listen to "experts" if you can find one, most working in finance are not formally trained or educated in the field, they are trained mostly on the job and folks don't recognize the sales or production agenda. Need to take care in listening to anyone who advocates any financial plan that is benefiting from their advice. Don't get caught up with second hand advocates, those are the ones who bought some program or scheme as they probably don't really know but bought the idea and they will be defending their choice.

The world is changing, it's more complicated and sophisticated and the only way to learn or keep up is through education. You need to be careful too about where and how you obtain that education. Buying "how to books" is not an education, those books are a product. 

There are high school text books on personal finance, these are a very good source of the basics and staring point to advance your understandings of several financial aspects. While many adults know what the APR is on a loan, very few can compute the real interest cost of a loan. Anyone can read beginning classroom texts in law, economics, finance, business and accounting and get most of it, for that you may not get, you can always ask someone you have vetted as to their knowledge and one you trust. 

A penny saved is a penny earned, that only goes so far in cutting expenses. 

The days of getting a job and saving and buying a home and paying your way as you go are coming to an end as wages aren't keeping up and there is an economic "war" between the have's and have not's and the have's are winning. Folks will need to be more entrepreneurial in obtaining their income, much more so than sinking disposable income into any commodity. It's also a long term game, the sooner you begin the better off you'll be.


----------



## Geek999

Ozarker said:


> It's still a good idea to listen to "experts" if you can find one, most working in finance are not formally trained or educated in the field, they are trained mostly on the job and folks don't recognize the sales or production agenda. Need to take care in listening to anyone who advocates any financial plan that is benefiting from their advice. Don't get caught up with second hand advocates, those are the ones who bought some program or scheme as they probably don't really know but bought the idea and they will be defending their choice.


Good advice, but lots of folks here have rejected advice of that nature despite it being available. If you class anyone associated with the industry as a "bankster" don't expect much help.


----------



## Country Living

My granny had a simple philosophy. Spend less than you earn, stay out of debt, and have enough land to support your family.


----------



## Ozarker

Geek, most that work in banks are not really finance types, banking is a financial service business, it's not until you get to the bank holding company and the investment bank do you find financial managers. Most folks don't need that type of expertise. 

There are fee paid advisors, they charge and receive no commissions or profit from the advice given, a good way to get specialized advice. 

Teachers who teach business courses at the college level are good to get clarifications from. 

Look to state license requirements for financial services, an insurance agent for example, look to the test requirements and most states have an official course text . If you study that information you'll be way ahead of most folks on the street and know what type of coverage is applicable, you can assess your needs and understand if some agent is blowing smoke at you. 

Join in and just do some lurking on financial service forums, stock brokers chat, bankers chat, insurance types and they all answer questions from peers. 

There are non-profits that have personal finance classes that cover banking, borrowing for consumer loans, insurance, price comparisons, savings and investments as well as retirement planning at a basic level. This stuff changes and while many think they know, they don't know, so community seminars is a good way to keep up. 

Not talking about finance seminars given by a company, that's a sales opportunity and often just a slick low key under the radar marketing aspect. 

Country Living, yep, that's great advice, spend less than you make and provide for yourself.


----------



## Geek999

Ozarker said:


> Geek, most that work in banks are not really finance types, banking is a financial service business, it's not until you get to the bank holding company and the investment bank do you find financial managers. Most folks don't need that type of expertise.
> 
> There are fee paid advisors, they charge and receive no commissions or profit from the advice given, a good way to get specialized advice.
> 
> Teachers who teach business courses at the college level are good to get clarifications from.
> 
> Look to state license requirements for financial services, an insurance agent for example, look to the test requirements and most states have an official course text . If you study that information you'll be way ahead of most folks on the street and know what type of coverage is applicable, you can assess your needs and understand if some agent is blowing smoke at you.
> 
> Join in and just do some lurking on financial service forums, stock brokers chat, bankers chat, insurance types and they all answer questions from peers.
> 
> There are non-profits that have personal finance classes that cover banking, borrowing for consumer loans, insurance, price comparisons, savings and investments as well as retirement planning at a basic level. This stuff changes and while many think they know, they don't know, so community seminars is a good way to keep up.
> 
> Not talking about finance seminars given by a company, that's a sales opportunity and often just a slick low key under the radar marketing aspect.
> 
> Country Living, yep, that's great advice, spend less than you make and provide for yourself.


I am very much aware of what is available, both in the financial services industry and on this forum. There are plenty of people around with strong educations in finance and other business disciplines, e.g. Accounting, who are not in sales, albeit when you walk in the front door of a bank or other financial firm the person greeting you is a salesperson.

However, we have members who are so anti-bank that they cannot really be helped.


----------



## Ozarker

Don't get me wrong, those that are ant-bank are more on the right track than not, especially with the too big to fail types. I'm all about consumer rights and protections against predatory dealings. My point was more to knowing when someone is blowing smoke, the only way you'll know is through knowledge. Experience takes time. 

I use to make deals with a hand shake, now you have to have a 12 page contract. You can't even get cable TV without the company tying to lock you up with sucker programs, low initial rates that explode where you're hooked over time. I'm pretty fed up with the consumer side of our economy, the deceit and manipulation is incredible. It's very difficult for one person to defend themselves financially, it's as if the carpet baggers are on steroids. All you can do is learn from a reputable source and that area of education is another niche of scammers selling the "how to" succeed stuff. Can't trust what you read, especially in forums in most cases. Everyone has some agenda if they are still in the game, some blow smoke just to pump up egos and they don't have a clue. While everyone can have their opinion, voicing opinions as an educational fact can get others in trouble.


----------



## gabbyj310

IF( and that's a big if)I have any cash left over(fat chance) then I spend it for"things".... I need a well dug on my property,I still need extra tools,back-up energy(solar,wind) guns(heck yeah!!! and ammo)supplies and more supplies.You can NEVER have tooooooo many supplies. Heirloom seeds,sanitary needs(if the toilet don't work you are in deep "sh#t no pun)water and filters and more water,pest control,natural fertilizer in case the land is depleted.Barter items are a better investment than a lot of gold and silver. Some will come in handy but if I need water and you ain't selling I'm in trouble.If the sun goes into "more of a burn/drought "mode" I want the sun fabric for green houses to protect my seedlings so they don't burn up. If we go into freezer mode a greenhouse for the same reason... I can think of a trillion things I would invest in first.Now if I could just win that darn Lottery!!!!:goodluck:


----------



## nightwing

toilet paper shortage another reason I save my junk mail.
most newspaper uses soy ink so even though my bum will be a multicolored kaleidescope it will be clean.

I am trying to fill a 55 gallon drum with toilet paper it is not easy or cheap.

If you live on the beach shells work OK if they are large enough don't squat in the surf for a few reasons sharks have beached themselves trying to get a bite.
jellyfish invasions and the tentacles are everywhere and personally I do not trust crabs.


----------



## JayJay

I use to make deals with a hand shake, now you have to have a 12 page contract

Ozarker--Gene was in the logging business for 40 years--you are right on both counts.

Like the bank officer lasking for the 2014 SS benefits statement for both my husband and me, and twice I have requested the 2014 and received the 2013!
How can I get a 2014 benefit and it's still 2014?? Don't they come in December??


----------



## nightwing

gabbyj310 said:


> Barter items are a better investment than a lot of gold and silver.


I have invested in another precious metal LEAD and Aluminum projectile molds.

http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_3-4_HowToCastBullets.htm

http://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/

I would download this and print it.

http://home.comcast.net/~gavinsw/guns/castbulletmilitaryrifle.pdf

here is another it comes in 2 parts

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane1.html

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane2.html

many pages give cast information and load data

http://gunlore.awardspace.info/rifledarms/hercules.htm

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail Boss Reduced Loads R&P.pdf

http://shooterslegacy.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25834


----------



## Ozarker

JayJay said:


> I use to make deals with a hand shake, now you have to have a 12 page contract
> 
> Ozarker--Gene was in the logging business for 40 years--you are right on both counts.
> 
> Like the bank officer lasking for the 2014 SS benefits statement for both my husband and me, and twice I have requested the 2014 and received the 2013!
> How can I get a 2014 benefit and it's still 2014?? Don't they come in December??


I assume you're asking for a loan. Most likely what the bank needs is a "determination of benefits letter" for the current year, the officer may not know what to ask for, the letter is a statement of current entitlements and should show year to date payments. You can get the letter at your local SS office serving your area.


----------



## LincTex

gabbyj310 said:


> IF( and that's a big if)I have any cash left over(fat chance) then I spend it for "things".... well dug, extra tools,back-up energy, guns, and ammo), Heirloom seeds,sanitary needs, water and filters and more water, pest control, natural fertilizer


Those all fall into "needs" and not just plain ol' "things"


----------



## LincTex

nightwing said:


> I have invested in another precious metal LEAD and Aluminum projectile molds.


Firs time I read this I thought you were casting bullets from aluminum as well as lead. I was like "Huh?!"


----------



## Woody

I read an article last night, sorry did not save the link.

It stated that the government statistics ARE correct about inflation, minus food and energy. Think electronics and other consumer 'toys', which ARE included. Prices for computers, data storage, phones... Have all been dropping. That $1,000 laptop a few years ago is now $250. Data storage is also much cheaper, due to many reasons. These more than offset the major jump in prices in other areas.

Yeah, I know. A numbers game. But using the selected items to gauge 'inflation' their numbers are correct. Using the actual prices of EVERYTHING, not so.


----------



## gabbyj310

You want numbers to make you shudder??? I just ate breakfast and it was $23.00.Yes I am at a cool resort and yes they had enough food for ANY nationality(fish,rice,egg drop soup)and a trillion people.But goodness just the bread alone could have fed a family of 10 for a week. Bagels, English Muffins,French Bread,Regular Bread,Whole Wheat,Rasin,3 kinds of plain rolls ,Crossaints,Danish(3 kind) and Muffins(3 kind).Yes this IS a high class resort with a wealth of people but goodness I can't eat 23.00 dollars worth of food for 3 meals unless I'm having Steak and Lobster!Just before I left the states I posted where my Reeses Peanut Butter cups went from 68 cents up to 75 cents. Went back just before I left for Saipan and guess what, yep, even in Wal-Mart they had already jumped up to a dollar.Guess that's one way to loose weight..... I guess I could have gone to the local eatery across the street but fish heads in the soup just isn't me not anytime but breakfast ?? Don't think so,I'll take a pass on that!


----------



## nightwing

LincTex said:


> Firs time I read this I thought you were casting bullets from aluminum as well as lead. I was like "Huh?!"


funny thing lead is not good to make projectiles with not even as gas checks.
I do not know why.


----------



## Woody

gabbyj310 said:


> You want numbers to make you shudder??? I just ate breakfast and it was $23.00.Yes I am at a cool resort and yes they had enough food for ANY nationality(fish,rice,egg drop soup)and a trillion people.But goodness just the bread alone could have fed a family of 10 for a week. Bagels, English Muffins,French Bread,Regular Bread,Whole Wheat,Rasin,3 kinds of plain rolls ,Crossaints,Danish(3 kind) and Muffins(3 kind).Yes this IS a high class resort with a wealth of people but goodness I can't eat 23.00 dollars worth of food for 3 meals unless I'm having Steak and Lobster!Just before I left the states I posted where my Reeses Peanut Butter cups went from 68 cents up to 75 cents. Went back just before I left for Saipan and guess what, yep, even in Wal-Mart they had already jumped up to a dollar.Guess that's one way to loose weight..... I guess I could have gone to the local eatery across the street but fish heads in the soup just isn't me not anytime but breakfast ?? Don't think so,I'll take a pass on that!


In 2000 to 2003 I did a LOT of traveling the U. S. for work, on the company card. We would book our trips through American Express. (I don't know about now, but when I used them, GREAT customer service!! Change in itinerary? Call the 800 number, a few minutes later pick up your ticket at the gate.) You had a meal budget UNLESS you ate at the company preferred hotel. Which I always stayed at because they were either right by the office or provided transport there and back. None were 'continental' breakfast places. $23 or more for breakfast was nothing at some places and the dinner check scared me. The meals were always exceptional, but I never would have shelled out that amount.


----------



## hiwall

> funny thing lead is not good to make projectiles with


Say what? Lead is the metal of choice for almost all projectiles.


----------



## JayJay

gabbyj310 said:


> You want numbers to make you shudder??? I just ate breakfast and it was $23.00.Yes I am at a cool resort and yes they had enough food for ANY nationality(fish,rice,egg drop soup)and a trillion people.But goodness just the bread alone could have fed a family of 10 for a week. Bagels, English Muffins,French Bread,Regular Bread,Whole Wheat,Rasin,3 kinds of plain rolls ,Crossaints,Danish(3 kind) and Muffins(3 kind).Yes this IS a high class resort with a wealth of people but goodness I can't eat 23.00 dollars worth of food for 3 meals unless I'm having Steak and Lobster!Just before I left the states I posted where my Reeses Peanut Butter cups went from 68 cents up to 75 cents. Went back just before I left for Saipan and guess what, yep, even in Wal-Mart they had already jumped up to a dollar.Guess that's one way to loose weight..... I guess I could have gone to the local eatery across the street but fish heads in the soup just isn't me not anytime but breakfast ?? Don't think so,I'll take a pass on that!


I can NOT buy peanut butter cups...I can not eat just one and then I get in trouble if there are more than one, and I get in trouble eating just one cause that's just a teaser for me.


----------



## JayJay

gabbyj310 said:


> You want numbers to make you shudder??? I just ate breakfast and it was $23.00.Yes I am at a cool resort and yes they had enough food for ANY nationality(fish,rice,egg drop soup)and a trillion people.But goodness just the bread alone could have fed a family of 10 for a week. Bagels, English Muffins,French Bread,Regular Bread,Whole Wheat,Rasin,3 kinds of plain rolls ,Crossaints,Danish(3 kind) and Muffins(3 kind).Yes this IS a high class resort with a wealth of people but goodness I can't eat 23.00 dollars worth of food for 3 meals unless I'm having Steak and Lobster!Just before I left the states I posted where my Reeses Peanut Butter cups went from 68 cents up to 75 cents. Went back just before I left for Saipan and guess what, yep, even in Wal-Mart they had already jumped up to a dollar.Guess that's one way to loose weight..... I guess I could have gone to the local eatery across the street but fish heads in the soup just isn't me not anytime but breakfast ?? Don't think so,I'll take a pass on that!


I can NOT buy peanut butter cups...I can not eat just one and then I get in trouble if there are more than one, and I get in trouble eating just one cause that's just a teaser for me.
I do have to break into my 1/2 gallon jar of chocolate peppermint patties every now and then!!! But I can seal those babies back up before I get in trouble.vract:
Well, dang--I can put those in a 1/2 gallon jar too and not get in trouble!!!


----------



## JayJay

Ozarker said:


> I assume you're asking for a loan. Most likely what the bank needs is a "determination of benefits letter" for the current year, the officer may not know what to ask for, the letter is a statement of current entitlements and should show year to date payments. You can get the letter at your local SS office serving your area.


Thanks, but I have already requested 2014 SS benefits statement--both times I received SS Benefits Statement for 2013.
I trust the administration wouldn't have made the same mistake twice for two people..that would be 4 screw ups.

You know there is a website--no need to go anywhere ..
http://www.ssa.gov/


----------



## Dakine

Geek999 said:


> I am very much aware of what is available, both in the financial services industry and on this forum. There are plenty of people around with strong educations in finance and other business disciplines, e.g. Accounting, who are not in sales, albeit when you walk in the front door of a bank or other financial firm the person greeting you is a salesperson.
> 
> However, we have members who are so anti-bank that they cannot really be helped.


The bank teller greeting you and accepting your deposits is "in the industry" and probably not an agent of evil... probably...  They and everyone above that are there to sell you a service.

If the banks went away, we'd see pawn shops doing a brisk business, some may argue they already do. Of course that depends on what you think is coming in the foreseeable future too... the market for 50" flat screen TV's is going to be pretty weak if the economy craters.

People getting rich off of others in the business of fiat currency manipulation, usury, and paying absolutely little to no interest for customers investments while bundling up derivatives to sell off with manipulated ratings... yeah... now that's something to be proud of!

What did the large banks do with their TARP funds? they crushed and/or bought up smaller banks. Where did they get their money from? who paid for that? we did, the tax paying citizens.

Too big to fail? I think not... liquidate them one by one until the survivors get the message, or just do it all at once, I don't care. We need a reboot anyways, it's unavoidable at this point, the sooner the better.

DJIA at 17k :rofl:
19T in debt :teehee:
more than half of the country on one .gov program of some kind :congrat:
feel good legislation which is nothing more than a game of Russian roulette (CRA, repeal Glass-Steagall, FATCA/HIRE) :brickwall:

Our financial security, and the exposure we have on a global scale to being manipulated and brought to ruins... :congrat:

I guess there are some good things about the banksters though, they sure do give a lot of people jobs!


----------



## Dakine

nightwing said:


> funny thing lead is not good to make projectiles with not even as gas checks.
> I do not know why.


I'm guessing you meant "not even with gas checks" not "as" gas checks, and gas checks are something lots of reloaders squabble about, some swear by them, others think it's a waste of time and money.

who said lead was not good to make projectiles with? other than Sierra Club and other eco-terrorist groups?


----------



## Viking

hiwall said:


> Say what? Lead is the metal of choice for almost all projectiles.


Alloyed with the right amount of tin lead makes excellent projectiles for pretty high velocities.


----------



## Dakine

Viking said:


> Alloyed with the right amount of tin lead makes excellent projectiles for pretty high velocities.


with a process called swaging fired .22lr brass goes through a 5 die process and it comes out the end having been reshaped to remove the ridge, it's been filled with a lead core, and it's been gently caressed into a JHP boolit for reloading .223 shells.

USED .22lr brass becomes the reloading component to make AR ammo. there's more where that came from, 9mm brass can be turned into .40 cal bullets, even .223 cases can be turned into .338 LM bullets.

personally I think if someone has the tools, knowledge and experience to put these things to practical use, it's a very sound investment.

this is the money forum, not the guns/bullets forum... please send me any questions in PM's or if you're a supporting member post in the appropriate forum if you want to know more and I'd be happy to share.

no more bullets talk here from me.


----------



## Geek999

Dakine said:


> The bank teller greeting you and accepting your deposits is "in the industry" and probably not an agent of evil... probably...  They and everyone above that are there to sell you a service.
> 
> If the banks went away, we'd see pawn shops doing a brisk business, some may argue they already do. Of course that depends on what you think is coming in the foreseeable future too... the market for 50" flat screen TV's is going to be pretty weak if the economy craters.
> 
> People getting rich off of others in the business of fiat currency manipulation, usury, and paying absolutely little to no interest for customers investments while bundling up derivatives to sell off with manipulated ratings... yeah... now that's something to be proud of!
> 
> What did the large banks do with their TARP funds? they crushed and/or bought up smaller banks. Where did they get their money from? who paid for that? we did, the tax paying citizens.
> 
> Too big to fail? I think not... liquidate them one by one until the survivors get the message, or just do it all at once, I don't care. We need a reboot anyways, it's unavoidable at this point, the sooner the better.
> 
> DJIA at 17k :rofl:
> 19T in debt :teehee:
> more than half of the country on one .gov program of some kind :congrat:
> feel good legislation which is nothing more than a game of Russian roulette (CRA, repeal Glass-Steagall, FATCA/HIRE) :brickwall:
> 
> Our financial security, and the exposure we have on a global scale to being manipulated and brought to ruins... :congrat:
> 
> I guess there are some good things about the banksters though, they sure do give a lot of people jobs!


Thank you for so eloquently reinforcing my point.


----------



## nightwing

Dakine said:


> I'm guessing you meant "not even with gas checks" not "as" gas checks, and gas checks are something lots of reloaders squabble about, some swear by them, others think it's a waste of time and money.
> 
> who said lead was not good to make projectiles with? other than Sierra Club and other eco-terrorist groups?


Lead is the only thing everything else is a poor second 
copper brass or steel jackets (if you want or need them)

NO not the eco's to many different views on aluminum gas checks 
and as far as I can see the price is not low enough to waste my time with I have used copper and brass gas checks know exactly what to expect and see no reason to change.

gas checks are like underwear if you want to you wear them.
there are more than one reason to use a gas check.
some use cream of wheat or grex ----- and other fillers and that reduces or eliminates leading and can cause side effects.

Aluminum takes so much heat that it would be impractical for the 
hobby loader to bother with. 
as a bullet aluminum is so light that it's range would be very short.

22 jackets are great but where are you going to get them in any quantity as far as to make a 223 round out of a 22 case you need a heavy duty 
press and the dies are not cheap.
pure lead can be melted and poured into a 22 caliber wire mold 
cut to weight and length and swaged in the 22 empty case.

Corbin has been making the finest swaging equipment in the world 
for many years I do not know about today but you used to could talk to 
him personally he has a book on swaging and makes a fine gas check maker.

you can make AR bullets from 1/4 inch copper tubing with an open base.
and with the optional hollow point tip and other bases make any configuration of bullet hollow point flat point spitzer semi sptz boat tail 
hollow base as heavy and as short as you please in the same dies set
but you will need a cantilever press for that much power Corbin sells those also.

many years ago they sold zink washers and a special mold 
paper can be used as a gas check or double dipping in Alox
or a better cheaper brand called Xlox.

every weapon has it's own nature saying a gas check works or not 
is dependent on the gun.

My original argument was that the pricing of aluminum gas checks 
compared to copper was not enough to for me to change checks.

As far as aluminum it is not even good for anything including gas checks 
it is and was chosen for it's weight first then because it became cheap
it wears fast breaks / fractures at the wrong time and other than being 
cheap to convert into parts and light to ship cheap it is junk except to 
aerospace and specialty industrial uses. because again it's cheap 
to cut melt machine and replace over steel.


----------



## Viking

Dakine is right on this, bullets are not in the league of the OP's thread title, oh how so easily we get off topic and threads get highjacked.:gaah:


----------



## nightwing

Viking said:


> Dakine is right on this, bullets are not in the league of the OP's thread title, oh how so easily we get off topic and threads get highjacked.:gaah:


sorry transfer to another thread if you like or just delete it


----------



## Viking

PurpleHeartJarhead said:


> A financial collapse, more than any other scenario, to include an attack on our soil by another belligerent nation, is the reason I prep. A global depression is coming, the weight of this debt is not sustainable.
> 
> Just my $0.02.


That $0.02 is exactly what our FED dollar is worth against the 1913 dollar. The banksters have poisoned the banking systems of the world with the reliance on the fiat petro dollar, meanwhile even Obama claims that debt is not a problem. The Keynesian economics seems to have brainwashed people into thinking that the ship of state can navigate without a rudder. As you have mentioned, "the weight of this debt is not sustainable." What we are not being told about debt is that it is a thousandfold worse than is being admitted. A lot of people think that setting aside gold and silver is a waste of time, many say and I've heard this frequently, you can't eat it and it won't be worth exchange after TSHTF. However, if we get a major currency change before the SHTF, what FED dollars you many have now will be like Germany in 1920's or what Zimbabwe went through. At least one will more than likely be able to get fair exchange for the new money with precious metals, if a new money comes about. If one does things the right way, the PM's you set aside will take nothing from your other preparations, it's all about balance in the things you do.


----------



## Dakine

Viking said:


> That $0.02 is exactly what our FED dollar is worth against the 1913 dollar. The banksters have poisoned the banking systems of the world with the reliance on the fiat petro dollar, meanwhile even Obama claims that debt is not a problem. The Keynesian economics seems to have brainwashed people into thinking that the ship of state can navigate without a rudder. As you have mentioned, "the weight of this debt is not sustainable." What we are not being told about debt is that it is a thousandfold worse than is being admitted. A lot of people think that setting aside gold and silver is a waste of time, many say and I've heard this frequently, you can't eat it and it won't be worth exchange after TSHTF. However, if we get a major currency change before the SHTF, what FED dollars you many have now will be like Germany in 1920's or what Zimbabwe went through. At least one will more than likely be able to get fair exchange for the new money with precious metals, if a new money comes about. If one does things the right way, the PM's you set aside will take nothing from your other preparations, it's all about balance in the things you do.


Well said!

if you haven't got food and ways to purify water so your family can stay healthy then things like shiny new tools and silver coins are only going to go so far and then you're out of luck.

Germany, Zimbabwe, Argentina, Greece... we've seen this before but people refuse to look because it's uncomfortable. The worst part is that they don't understand it's already done, it just hasn't happened yet.

without a shooting war (that nationalizes and mobilizes our country in the way WWI and WWII did) I don't see a way for us to turn this around and even then, we'll still have a massive reset its just that we *may* stand a better chance of not being picked over as the spoils of war by the jackals if we go on the offensive first. maybe.


----------



## Viking

Dakine said:


> Well said!
> 
> if you haven't got food and ways to purify water so your family can stay healthy then things like shiny new tools and silver coins are only going to go so far and then you're out of luck.
> 
> Germany, Zimbabwe, Argentina, Greece... we've seen this before but people refuse to look because it's uncomfortable. The worst part is that they don't understand it's already done, it just hasn't happened yet.
> 
> without a shooting war (that nationalizes and mobilizes our country in the way WWI and WWII did) I don't see a way for us to turn this around and even then, we'll still have a massive reset its just that we *may* stand a better chance of not being picked over as the spoils of war by the jackals if we go on the offensive first. maybe.


A massive reset is about the only way we will survive and once again become the Republic which our founding fathers set forth, it will not be painless and according to those who really know what's going on, there may well be a frighteningly high death rate. I tend to agree due to so many people locked into a normalcy bias of the electronic age and that it's been a long time since the last depression that caused such great pain. People are far too used to going to the grocery store for their food, most have no idea how things are grown.


----------

