# Why tougher times lie ahead



## readytogo

The US economy advanced an annualized 1.9 percent on quarter in the last three months of 2016, slowing from a 3.5 percent growth in the previous period and matching earlier estimates. Consumer spending rose faster than anticipated while business investment was revised lower. In 2016, the GDP expanded 1.6%, the lowest since 2011.Gap once ruled the retail world. But today America's largest apparel retailer is closing a quarter of its stores and laying off hundreds of workers after disappointing sales. As Americans shell out for items like iPhones Netflix, Autos and tickers to the games they are increasingly unwilling to pay full price for sweaters and jeans. Wet Seal, a shopping mall staple, abruptly shut down nearly all of its stores. Sears, Macy's, and JCPenney have also shuttered hundreds of store locations in recent years. More than two dozen malls have shut down in the last four years and another 60 malls are on the brink of death. Why consumers spending? Well we keep buying junk and on credit, the national car loans probably broke the trillion mark by now, according to Experian it was $886 billion in outstanding auto loans in the fourth quarter of 2014. That’s up nearly 23 percent from the same period two years ago, corporate America is not stupid, low interest rates and many years to pay for that fancy truck or BMW, that is why many young professionals can`t afford the rent and also many old retirees’ can`t afford food or drugs .Many jobs will be lost do to technology improvements while the medical field is expected to increase due to the older populace but the bottom line is that we better tighten our belts because many changes are on the way and that`s not a prediction ,is on the numbers. Before the Great Depression the stock market was up and running, the Roaring Twenties, the U.S. economy had an unprecedented economic boom. New technologies, there was mass production in the manufacturing, telecommunications, movie and chemical sectors. Infrastructure was being built to support all of these new technologies. Much of the population moved into the cities to acquire jobs in these industries. Americans found themselves with ever increasing amounts of dollars to spend which was then invested in the stock market and deposited in to banks. Just like today. My neighbor just lost her house,5 mortgages, new swimming pool and many vacation trips but not one penny saved.:scratch


----------



## AmishHeart

Not to mention the 20 trillion dollar debt. Our government has not been responsible at all.
Many people in my state could be working, but chose not to, and take government handouts. Then they use charge cards. This month with lots of single moms in our state receiving their tax refund for "earned income tax credit", and $$ for each child they have...lots choose to spend it on video games for the kids, fun stuff. If I were that broke, I would pay my rent ahead, and make sure I had no debt. 
People have changed since the great depression, and many back then were go getters. It'll be awful hard if the economy collapses now, because of the attitude of those they have never worked a day in their life.


----------



## Tweto

The OP is all true except this is only part of the story. The GDP has been very bad for the last 2 years at completely impotent returns. Retailers have been going out of business since the recession of 2008. The only reason that the rest have stayed in business is because personal credit has been too easy to get and people just keep charging up the cards, then they borrow on the house to get more credit opened up on the cards and then charge up the cards again. 

Overall personal debt is at all time highs over 1 trillion dollars, student loans are at all time highs over 1 trillion dollars and the new car market is doing well because the outstanding loans are at all time highs of about 1.1 trillion and the sub prime loans in this group are also at all time highs of more then 30%.

The post 2008 recession recovery has never happened despite rumors to the contrary.

The bond market is wavering, there are more working age adults out of work now then in the last 30 years. The unemployment rates do not reflect this because the math they use now is only looking at recently unemployed.

Wall street is the only bright spot, but only because of Trumps win.

Any one that can do the math will understand the deep shft we are in. Don't stop prepping!!!!!!


----------



## BillS

Obamacare has been the biggest factor in the destruction of the economy. Big companies eliminated their full time help. If you thought it was hard to survive working for Target for 40 hours a week just try surviving on 30 hours a week.

One reason the economy is tanking is the economic effects of liberalism. The minimum wage is the perfect example. Unemployment goes up whenever the minimum wage is raised. Right now the push by the left to have a $15 minimum wage is leading to increased automation in the fast food industry. Companies that can't sufficiently automate will fail.

The other big reason the economy is tanking is the actions of the Federal Reserve. They've kept interest rates artificially low to fund the federal government at artificially low rates. That's killed retired people trying to earn interest on their savings. It's forced pension funds into the stock market and there's a huge crash coming.


----------



## AmmoSgt

BillS said:


> Obamacare has been the biggest factor in the destruction of the economy. Big companies eliminated their full time help. If you thought it was hard to survive working for Target for 40 hours a week just try surviving on 30 hours a week.
> 
> One reason the economy is tanking is the economic effects of liberalism. The minimum wage is the perfect example. Unemployment goes up whenever the minimum wage is raised. Right now the push by the left to have a $15 minimum wage is leading to increased automation in the fast food industry. Companies that can't sufficiently automate will fail.
> 
> The other big reason the economy is tanking is the actions of the Federal Reserve. They've kept interest rates artificially low to fund the federal government at artificially low rates. That's killed retired people trying to earn interest on their savings. It's forced pension funds into the stock market and there's a huge crash coming.


The minimum wage is not, imho, a perfect example ( mind you I am against a minimum wage on principle , reality forces me to have another point of view) . employers have right, even an obligation, to make a profit from each person they hire and should, in an ideal world, never hire somebody that costs more than the worth of what they produce. However as things now stand the employers pay low wages and reap extraordinary profits and fob the cost of a living wage off on the taxpayer by subsidizing low wages thru everything from subsidized health care to rent assistance to food stamps.

To me this means the taxpayers thru the government should /must mandate wages that do not force the taxpayer to support working people ( I think as a nation we have an obligation to support or make it possible for folks who are too old or too disabled or to infirm to provide a profitable level of productive participation or a dignified retirement with participation of the citizen thru their working life , but always with a bias to providing a possibility of productive participation over just a substance stipend )

This is where principle and optics gets in the way of practicality. A $15 minimum wage in all practicality makes folks earning it ineligible for taxpayer government support and puts the full burden on the employer and the customer .. while increasing unemployment somewhat, that in all humanity , mandates some minimal level of government support. I would, in the short term, increase the cost of that support if training to be productive was included in the minimal level of support.

It is practically a zero sum game.. lower prices supported by tax payer employee subsidies V Higher prices with no tax payer subsidies

As an example of a complex many moving parts problem, minimum wage is a prefect example of the interactive complexity of any issue, this one involving human dignity, price point , profit, government intervention , human nature, private enterprise , and the laws of economics .


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

readytogo said:


> The US economy advanced an annualized 1.9 percent on quarter in the last three months of 2016, slowing from a 3.5 percent growth in the previous period and matching earlier estimates. Consumer spending rose faster than anticipated while business investment was revised lower. In 2016, the GDP expanded 1.6%, the lowest since 2011.Gap once ruled the retail world. But today America's largest apparel retailer is closing a quarter of its stores and laying off hundreds of workers after disappointing sales. As Americans shell out for items like iPhones Netflix, Autos and tickers to the games they are increasingly unwilling to pay full price for sweaters and jeans. Wet Seal, a shopping mall staple, abruptly shut down nearly all of its stores. Sears, Macy's, and JCPenney have also shuttered hundreds of store locations in recent years. More than two dozen malls have shut down in the last four years and another 60 malls are on the brink of death. Why consumers spending? Well we keep buying junk and on credit, the national car loans probably broke the trillion mark by now, according to Experian it was $886 billion in outstanding auto loans in the fourth quarter of 2014. That's up nearly 23 percent from the same period two years ago, corporate America is not stupid, low interest rates and many years to pay for that fancy truck or BMW, that is why many young professionals can`t afford the rent and also many old retirees' can`t afford food or drugs .Many jobs will be lost do to technology improvements while the medical field is expected to increase due to the older populace but the bottom line is that we better tighten our belts because many changes are on the way and that`s not a prediction ,is on the numbers. Before the Great Depression the stock market was up and running, the Roaring Twenties, the U.S. economy had an unprecedented economic boom. New technologies, there was mass production in the manufacturing, telecommunications, movie and chemical sectors. Infrastructure was being built to support all of these new technologies. Much of the population moved into the cities to acquire jobs in these industries. Americans found themselves with ever increasing amounts of dollars to spend which was then invested in the stock market and deposited in to banks. Just like today. My neighbor just lost her house,5 mortgages, new swimming pool and many vacation trips but not one penny saved.:scratch


I don't think using the struggles of retail industry to highlight coming hard times is accurate. While that industry is drowning it is because our economy is shifting away from that business model in the face of new technology.

You are right about the auto debt. It's at about 1.3 trillion now and, imo , the next bubble. My brother has been in that industry for years and has shifted his finance company completely out of auto loans over the last 2year's because the bubble will pop sooner rather than later. I cant believe it hasnt popped yet. It is a much smaller market that the housing market though so it won't sink us on its own like 2008.

Student loan debt is another bubble. Don't know how that's going to play out.

I think what is actually coming down the pipes will surprise a lot of folks. I think people just haven't realised there will be no retirement. All those 401k's and retirement accounts are invested in smoke and mirrors. Shoot, most companies aren't even using gap accounting. I truly believe there is just nothing there. All our accumulated wealth is nothing but a lie. The Ponzi scheme is nearing it's end and madoff is going to look like a rank amateur. We have traded all our wealth to keep the system going and it's going to be a rude awakening when we try and live off what we have earned only to find the coffers bare.


----------



## hiwall

After having at or near zero interest rates for so long when interest rates finally go up (and I assume at some point they will) the bond market market will really be in turmoil. 
And all the debt that every country has (especially the USA) when those interest rates go up all those countries will be in trouble because of all the interest they will have to pay on that mountain of debt.
Trump can have no real effect on these things. He can not 'pay down' the US debt either. It would be like one determined man with a shovel trying to fill in the Grand Canyon. 
I honestly can not see a way out of this huge debt mountain or debt bubble or whatever you choose to call it, without causing the general population an awful lot of pain.


----------



## Caribou

hiwall said:


> After having at or near zero interest rates for so long when interest rates finally go up (and I assume at some point they will) the bond market market will really be in turmoil.
> And all the debt that every country has (especially the USA) when those interest rates go up all those countries will be in trouble because of all the interest they will have to pay on that mountain of debt.
> Trump can have no real effect on these things. He can not 'pay down' the US debt either. It would be like one determined man with a shovel trying to fill in the Grand Canyon.
> I honestly can not see a way out of this huge debt mountain or debt bubble or whatever you choose to call it, without causing the general population an awful lot of pain.


They have been using inflation to pay off the debt for generations. Borrow a dollar and pay it back twenty years later with a dime.

The problem is that we keep borrowing more. I don't remember the last balanced budget. We have paid off our debt in the past but that is a rare occurrence.

We might have a chance to balance our budget and pay of the debt if we can get rid of most welfare. This will require term limits as the legislators are using handouts too buy votes.


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

hiwall said:


> After having at or near zero interest rates for so long when interest rates finally go up (and I assume at some point they will) the bond market market will really be in turmoil.
> And all the debt that every country has (especially the USA) when those interest rates go up all those countries will be in trouble because of all the interest they will have to pay on that mountain of debt.
> Trump can have no real effect on these things. He can not 'pay down' the US debt either. It would be like one determined man with a shovel trying to fill in the Grand Canyon.
> I honestly can not see a way out of this huge debt mountain or debt bubble or whatever you choose to call it, without causing the general population an awful lot of pain.


The only thing Trump can do, which he is trying to attempt, is to provide the leadership necessary to improve our economy to the point where we are generating a lot more income. We can only do a couple things. Tax at a massively increased rate or generate more income in the private sector and increase our wealth with new and expanding business. We can't do both because they inversely effect each other. He is making the right choice where the platform of the liberal progressives generally chose the other which is much like shooting yourself in the foot. Hopefully we can improve to the point we can tackle a more serious solution to the issue but , imo, all we will do with anything but dramatic short term suffering in the form of a reset back to sound money principles is delay the inevitable.


----------



## readytogo

The economy is an up and down thing we all know this but as an individual with a family I`m very concern with the smaller economy ,my own ,I try to stay away from the credit traps and the influence of the commercialism we face everyday ,is hard on a family and it creates pressure .especially if you have kids demanding the latest gadgets and give in.I over heard a conversation of a young in the grocery store that said it all ,he was listing the bills; cell phone ,two cars ,insurances, mortgage, internet , water bill ,fuel ,cable and more while holding a $500.00 cell phone and I notice a fancy gold watch on her. There is no way I bypass a good meal for a iPhone or TV ,this new generation today has lost all recollection of saving for that rainy day nor prepared for a emergency or even know how ,even parents today fail to teach this matters because they themselves don`t know how to make a fried doughnut, is sad and scary because if the shtf those same people will turn on you or riot. My new neighbors just came here from Spain ,they can`t get a legal job till one year in country ,he works add jobs but they have fancy iPhones and a $120 monthly wifi service ,constantly on those danm things and complaining all the time about prices and other things .I told them that going back was easy to do hell.


----------



## bkt

As preppers, we should keep an ear to the ground regarding economics. Get out of debt as much as possible and don't take on new debt if you can avoid it. Hedge against the currency failing by storing part of your wealth in other things. Store as much of the consumable items you use as reasonably possible and learn ways to replace them other than by going to the store to buy new items. That's my $0.02.

The best thing government could do to improve the economy is to get out of the way of the everyday person and let them conduct business unencumbered by excessive regulations.


----------



## AmishHeart

It's all good that Trump was talking about all the money he's going to bring back in. Problem is, he's talking about doing alot of new things that cost alot more money. 

It's good to teach are young ones now about the difference between wants and needs. Especially when it comes to things like phones. I have an old flip phone that works just fine. I have a laptop when I need to be on the internet. I cook most of our meals at home. This all saves alot of money. Grandkids that live with us don't have phones, and won't get one from me. It was a little awkward for them on school "play day" afternoon (middle school) where kids were allowed to bring their phones and play games all afternoon. I told them to try and find a friend to visit with. Visiting is a lost art.


----------



## AmmoSgt

CrackbottomLouis said:


> The only thing Trump can do, which he is trying to attempt, is to provide the leadership necessary to improve our economy to the point where we are generating a lot more income. We can only do a couple things. Tax at a massively increased rate or generate more income in the private sector and increase our wealth with new and expanding business. We can't do both because they inversely effect each other. He is making the right choice where the platform of the liberal progressives generally chose the other which is much like shooting yourself in the foot. Hopefully we can improve to the point we can tackle a more serious solution to the issue but , imo, all we will do with anything but dramatic short term suffering in the form of a reset back to sound money principles is delay the inevitable.


Were only that could be true.

The bottom line is Trump thinks you are idiots and makes promises that can't work or are based on total hoakum but sound good to you. Trump thinks you are as stupid as he is. And he won't back down from a position when the facts not only show that the promise was not possible to keep , but that you couldn't understand why it was impossible or the worst possible course of action... Trump knows you are loyal unto death and have no concern about what is best for this Nation or even what is possible to do.

Two concrete examples

American steel for American pipelines . I pointed out last week we don't make the right kind of steel in the right sizes for the Keystone and XL projects .. It's not that we can't.. we have a free economy.. steel companies are free to make what sells in quantities that justify the facilities and tooling to make it .. Steel of that quality and size and shape is a low demand item, a couple of plants on the planet can handle world demand . An Indian owned company in Arkansas and Russian company in Canada make it.

So promise broken http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/mark...-pledge/ar-AAnNmOz?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp which is a good thing we need those pipelines.. Trump shot off his mouth and made promises with no freaking clue what he was talking about. But they really did sound good at the time, even I thought so on this one.. we need the pipelines don't let the possible be the enemy of the perfect.

And now we have the leaked DHS report on who does terrorism http://www.salon.com/2017/03/03/dhs...orn-terrorists-become-radicalized-in-the-u-s/

It isn't even classified, it is "For Official Use Only", which, if you look it up, are handling instructions , not a level of classification ( we can argue over if providing facts to a public debate is an official use of a government report, I say it is) . All Trumps General's are begging him to back off the travel ban as a bad idea. Trump is trying like hell to write a ban that gets around the Constitution, the problem being the Government has to have some interest , even at the lowest level of judicial scrutiny, to interfere or restrict at all .. The EO has to, in some way, fix or mitigate the problem, that is in fact a problem. the problem is not there when people first come in to the US.. it is after years of being treated as "others" that the problem begins to develop. That what they had always believed about America that made them want to give up the land of their birth, friends, family, a whole life, for a better life was not was true as what ISIS said was a land of bigots and hate . .. here we have an EO and a whole lot of campaign rhetoric that aggravates and angers people already here.. that plows the ground for the seeds of discontent and radicalization, that plays into the recruiting slogans and rhetoric of Al Qaeda and ISIS and that prompts otherwise sane American to act like bigots instead of brothers making so much of how ISIS portrays us as true in fact.
Trump didn't have a clue.. he thought he knew more than the Generals and that his brain was his best advisor and counselor ( that should have been a more obvious clue to far more people than it was) and policies like this cause problems on the ground between out troops, the host nation, and their troops, and the folks who hate ISIS as much as we do, and step up volunteer to help with intelligence and translation .. The Generals are begging trump , as a minimum , to take Iraq off the list.. they can't even get that much.. because this what Trump campaigned on.. facts and access to higher levels of intelligence reports be damned .. he made you a promise...

The third course of action, the third way... whatever the &**^% happened to sound good at the time, and got a cheer at a rally..

Trump doesn't want to look wrong and he doesn't think you can possible understand a reasonable explanation as to why a promise has to be broken for the good of the Nation in favor of a more practical course of action or a more effective course of action ...

And he knows you don't care either, you were promised and Trump is always right.

Trump is a human being.. he has good ideas and some real boners .. sometimes the better way is counterintuitive, or requires some level of expertise or sophistication ... and to implement it, some degree of leadership to get the people on the right course, the better side of an issue , even If the instinct is to blame the wrong target and not apply American principles to folks that don't look like Americans to you.

And before I get complaints, I am not accusing anybody here or reading this or even Trump, of being stupid.. the policies and promises have been stupid, and everybody is human, and can screw up complex ideas or sound good promises, that, with just a little more study, or a second look, or after having some assumptions challenged and honestly evaluated, they would never have made in the first place. Trump is acting like he doesn't think you could possibly get that.

A lot of this has been Trump shooting from the lips .. the ideas have now been thru some public review and debate , not just these two , many proposed ideas .. some of which Trump got right, some he didn't, some that are still up for review as the course of nations move into the fog of the future.

now the only problem is that the facts do not seem to matter and no change, upon reflection and fuller understanding of problems and fixes seems possible.

Trump hates to be wrong ( more than most) and fears disappointing you and your wrath if he has to , in the name of doing what is best for the nation , break a promise

That is a suicide pact.

this is a supply of extra commas to be used as needed ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

in an earlier post a Point was lost for the want of a comma


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

AmmoSgt said:


> Were only that could be true.
> 
> The bottom line is Trump thinks you are idiots and makes promises that can't work or are based on total hoakum but sound good to you. Trump thinks you are as stupid as he is. And he won't back down from a position when the facts not only show that the promise was not possible to keep , but that you couldn't understand why it was impossible or the worst possible course of action... Trump knows you are loyal unto death and have no concern about what is best for this Nation or even what is possible to do.
> 
> Two concrete examples
> 
> American steel for American pipelines . I pointed out last week we don't make the right kind of steel in the right sizes for the Keystone and XL projects .. It's not that we can't.. we have a free economy.. steel companies are free to make what sells in quantities that justify the facilities and tooling to make it .. Steel of that quality and size and shape is a low demand item, a couple of plants on the planet can handle world demand . An Indian owned company in Arkansas and Russian company in Canada make it.
> 
> So promise broken http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/mark...-pledge/ar-AAnNmOz?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp which is a good thing we need those pipelines.. Trump shot off his mouth and made promises with no freaking clue what he was talking about. But they really did sound good at the time, even I thought so on this one.. we need the pipelines don't let the possible be the enemy of the perfect.
> 
> And now we have the leaked DHS report on who does terrorism http://www.salon.com/2017/03/03/dhs...orn-terrorists-become-radicalized-in-the-u-s/
> 
> It isn't even classified, it is "For Official Use Only", which, if you look it up, are handling instructions , not a level of classification ( we can argue over if providing facts to a public debate is an official use of a government report, I say it is) . All Trumps General's are begging him to back off the travel ban as a bad idea. Trump is trying like hell to write a ban that gets around the Constitution, the problem being the Government has to have some interest , even at the lowest level of judicial scrutiny, to interfere or restrict at all .. The EO has to, in some way, fix or mitigate the problem, that is in fact a problem. the problem is not there when people first come in to the US.. it is after years of being treated as "others" that the problem begins to develop. That what they had always believed about America that made them want to give up the land of their birth, friends, family, a whole life, for a better life was not was true as what ISIS said was a land of bigots and hate . .. here we have an EO and a whole lot of campaign rhetoric that aggravates and angers people already here.. that plows the ground for the seeds of discontent and radicalization, that plays into the recruiting slogans and rhetoric of Al Qaeda and ISIS and that prompts otherwise sane American to act like bigots instead of brothers making so much of how ISIS portrays us as true in fact.
> Trump didn't have a clue.. he thought he knew more than the Generals and that his brain was his best advisor and counselor ( that should have been a more obvious clue to far more people than it was) and policies like this cause problems on the ground between out troops, the host nation, and their troops, and the folks who hate ISIS as much as we do, and step up volunteer to help with intelligence and translation .. The Generals are begging trump , as a minimum , to take Iraq off the list.. they can't even get that much.. because this what Trump campaigned on.. facts and access to higher levels of intelligence reports be damned .. he made you a promise...
> 
> The third course of action, the third way... whatever the &**^% happened to sound good at the time, and got a cheer at a rally..
> 
> Trump doesn't want to look wrong and he doesn't think you can possible understand a reasonable explanation as to why a promise has to be broken for the good of the Nation in favor of a more practical course of action or a more effective course of action ...
> 
> And he knows you don't care either, you were promised and Trump is always right.
> 
> Trump is a human being.. he has good ideas and some real boners .. sometimes the better way is counterintuitive, or requires some level of expertise or sophistication ... and to implement it, some degree of leadership to get the people on the right course, the better side of an issue , even If the instinct is to blame the wrong target and not apply American principles to folks that don't look like Americans to you.
> 
> And before I get complaints, I am not accusing anybody here or reading this or even Trump, of being stupid.. the policies and promises have been stupid, and everybody is human, and can screw up complex ideas or sound good promises, that, with just a little more study, or a second look, or after having some assumptions challenged and honestly evaluated, they would never have made in the first place. Trump is acting like he doesn't think you could possibly get that.
> 
> A lot of this has been Trump shooting from the lips .. the ideas have now been thru some public review and debate , not just these two , many proposed ideas .. some of which Trump got right, some he didn't, some that are still up for review as the course of nations move into the fog of the future.
> 
> now the only problem is that the facts do not seem to matter and no change, upon reflection and fuller understanding of problems and fixes seems possible.
> 
> Trump hates to be wrong ( more than most) and fears disappointing you and your wrath if he has to , in the name of doing what is best for the nation , break a promise
> 
> That is a suicide pact.
> 
> this is a supply of extra commas to be used as needed ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
> 
> in an earlier post a Point was lost for the want of a comma


Blah, blah, blah


----------



## hiwall

Supposedly the idea of the fed lowering interest rates was to free up money to boost the economy. This never happened(other than the stock market). If interest rates do go up money (loans) will be even harder to get. 
Right now home ownership is at the lowest its been for decades and this is at a time when interest rates are at record lows. When rates go up there will be even fewer people that can afford a house. The housing market looks rather grim.
Then there is over one trillion in student loans of which a very large percentage are way in arrears. A big chunk of those with student loans believe that the loans will be "forgiven". The whole student loan thing looks rather grim.
Car sales have been a big part of consumer spending for several years. Car companies believe they have plateaued or reached their peak. Some expect a slump in new cars sales. Also they expect a big flood of close to new returned lease vehicles on dealer lots. Overall the car business looks rather grim. 
Businesses open and some businesses fail. It has always been that way. But for the last couple years now the number of closing businesses have exceeded the number of new opening businesses. Overall the retail business looks rather grim. 
Health insurance rates are skyrocketing and have been for a few years. There is no stopping that trend no matter what if anything Congress does. Overall the health care looks rather grim. 
The cost to government for Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security is rising at a rapid pace with no end in sight. On the contrary many see the aging baby boomers as fueling an even faster rise in costs. This amounts to a huge amount of un-funded liabilities for the US government. The US debt clock estimates the un-funded liabilities to be an unheard of number at 105 trillion dollars! 
Yes we all pay into Social Security and to Medicare but our ever wise Congress has spent all the savings we had. Now what is coming in does not come close to paying what is going out. Overall this un-funded liabilities situation look rather grim.


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

hiwall said:


> Supposedly the idea of the fed lowering interest rates was to free up money to boost the economy. This never happened(other than the stock market). If interest rates do go up money (loans) will be even harder to get.
> Right now home ownership is at the lowest its been for decades and this is at a time when interest rates are at record lows. When rates go up there will be even fewer people that can afford a house. The housing market looks rather grim.
> Then there is over one trillion in student loans of which a very large percentage are way in arrears. A big chunk of those with student loans believe that the loans will be "forgiven". The whole student loan thing looks rather grim.
> Car sales have been a big part of consumer spending for several years. Car companies believe they have plateaued or reached their peak. Some expect a slump in new cars sales. Also they expect a big flood of close to new returned lease vehicles on dealer lots. Overall the car business looks rather grim.
> Businesses open and some businesses fail. It has always been that way. But for the last couple years now the number of closing businesses have exceeded the number of new opening businesses. Overall the retail business looks rather grim.
> Health insurance rates are skyrocketing and have been for a few years. There is no stopping that trend no matter what if anything Congress does. Overall the health care looks rather grim.
> The cost to government for Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security is rising at a rapid pace with no end in sight. On the contrary many see the aging baby boomers as fueling an even faster rise in costs. This amounts to a huge amount of un-funded liabilities for the US government. The US debt clock estimates the un-funded liabilities to be an unheard of number at 105 trillion dollars!
> Yes we all pay into Social Security and to Medicare but our ever wise Congress has spent all the savings we had. Now what is coming in does not come close to paying what is going out. Overall this un-funded liabilities situation look rather grim.


There are certainly a lot of bubbles on the horizon. Student loans and car debt combined are over 2 trillion. Home sales are actually up across the board. I think the low home ownership rates have more to do with millennials waiting far longer to purchase homes. This may be, in part, to student debt. Although the housing market could be better (says the real estate agent trying to make a sale or 2) I don't think we are in a crisis like what led up to 2008. Our unfunded liabilities are a giant mess and a noose around our neck. I cant understand how government thought it could just spend the safety net retirement fund of the nation on whatever it pleased. If a private company tried that there would be folks going to jail.


----------



## Viking

CrackbottomLouis said:


> I don't think using the struggles of retail industry to highlight coming hard times is accurate. While that industry is drowning it is because our economy is shifting away from that business model in the face of new technology.
> 
> You are right about the auto debt. It's at about 1.3 trillion now and, imo , the next bubble. My brother has been in that industry for years and has shifted his finance company completely out of auto loans over the last 2year's because the bubble will pop sooner rather than later. I cant believe it hasnt popped yet. It is a much smaller market that the housing market though so it won't sink us on its own like 2008.
> 
> Student loan debt is another bubble. Don't know how that's going to play out.
> 
> I think what is actually coming down the pipes will surprise a lot of folks. I think people just haven't realised there will be no retirement. All those 401k's and retirement accounts are invested in smoke and mirrors. Shoot, most companies aren't even using gap accounting. I truly believe there is just nothing there. All our accumulated wealth is nothing but a lie. The Ponzi scheme is nearing it's end and madoff is going to look like a rank amateur. We have traded all our wealth to keep the system going and it's going to be a rude awakening when we try and live off what we have earned only to find the coffers bare.


Sounds like you've been reading some of the same things I have, a lot of the stuff I've been studying has come from Kitco Contributing Commentators.


----------



## Caribou

AmmoSgt said:


> Were only that could be true.
> 
> The bottom line is Trump thinks you are idiots and makes promises that can't work or are based on total hoakum but sound good to you. Trump thinks you are as stupid as he is. And he won't back down from a position when the facts not only show that the promise was not possible to keep , but that you couldn't understand why it was impossible or the worst possible course of action... Trump knows you are loyal unto death and have no concern about what is best for this Nation or even what is possible to do.
> 
> Two concrete examples
> 
> American steel for American pipelines . I pointed out last week we don't make the right kind of steel in the right sizes for the Keystone and XL projects .. It's not that we can't.. we have a free economy.. steel companies are free to make what sells in quantities that justify the facilities and tooling to make it .. Steel of that quality and size and shape is a low demand item, a couple of plants on the planet can handle world demand . An Indian owned company in Arkansas and Russian company in Canada make it.
> 
> So promise broken http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/mark...-pledge/ar-AAnNmOz?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp which is a good thing we need those pipelines.. Trump shot off his mouth and made promises with no freaking clue what he was talking about. But they really did sound good at the time, even I thought so on this one.. we need the pipelines don't let the possible be the enemy of the perfect.
> 
> And now we have the leaked DHS report on who does terrorism http://www.salon.com/2017/03/03/dhs...orn-terrorists-become-radicalized-in-the-u-s/
> 
> It isn't even classified, it is "For Official Use Only", which, if you look it up, are handling instructions , not a level of classification ( we can argue over if providing facts to a public debate is an official use of a government report, I say it is) . All Trumps General's are begging him to back off the travel ban as a bad idea. Trump is trying like hell to write a ban that gets around the Constitution, the problem being the Government has to have some interest , even at the lowest level of judicial scrutiny, to interfere or restrict at all .. The EO has to, in some way, fix or mitigate the problem, that is in fact a problem. the problem is not there when people first come in to the US.. it is after years of being treated as "others" that the problem begins to develop. That what they had always believed about America that made them want to give up the land of their birth, friends, family, a whole life, for a better life was not was true as what ISIS said was a land of bigots and hate . .. here we have an EO and a whole lot of campaign rhetoric that aggravates and angers people already here.. that plows the ground for the seeds of discontent and radicalization, that plays into the recruiting slogans and rhetoric of Al Qaeda and ISIS and that prompts otherwise sane American to act like bigots instead of brothers making so much of how ISIS portrays us as true in fact.
> Trump didn't have a clue.. he thought he knew more than the Generals and that his brain was his best advisor and counselor ( that should have been a more obvious clue to far more people than it was) and policies like this cause problems on the ground between out troops, the host nation, and their troops, and the folks who hate ISIS as much as we do, and step up volunteer to help with intelligence and translation .. The Generals are begging trump , as a minimum , to take Iraq off the list.. they can't even get that much.. because this what Trump campaigned on.. facts and access to higher levels of intelligence reports be damned .. he made you a promise...
> 
> The third course of action, the third way... whatever the &**^% happened to sound good at the time, and got a cheer at a rally..
> 
> Trump doesn't want to look wrong and he doesn't think you can possible understand a reasonable explanation as to why a promise has to be broken for the good of the Nation in favor of a more practical course of action or a more effective course of action ...
> 
> And he knows you don't care either, you were promised and Trump is always right.
> 
> Trump is a human being.. he has good ideas and some real boners .. sometimes the better way is counterintuitive, or requires some level of expertise or sophistication ... and to implement it, some degree of leadership to get the people on the right course, the better side of an issue , even If the instinct is to blame the wrong target and not apply American principles to folks that don't look like Americans to you.
> 
> And before I get complaints, I am not accusing anybody here or reading this or even Trump, of being stupid.. the policies and promises have been stupid, and everybody is human, and can screw up complex ideas or sound good promises, that, with just a little more study, or a second look, or after having some assumptions challenged and honestly evaluated, they would never have made in the first place. Trump is acting like he doesn't think you could possibly get that.
> 
> A lot of this has been Trump shooting from the lips .. the ideas have now been thru some public review and debate , not just these two , many proposed ideas .. some of which Trump got right, some he didn't, some that are still up for review as the course of nations move into the fog of the future.
> 
> now the only problem is that the facts do not seem to matter and no change, upon reflection and fuller understanding of problems and fixes seems possible.
> 
> Trump hates to be wrong ( more than most) and fears disappointing you and your wrath if he has to , in the name of doing what is best for the nation , break a promise
> 
> That is a suicide pact.
> 
> this is a supply of extra commas to be used as needed ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
> 
> in an earlier post a Point was lost for the want of a comma


Is it your goal to pick a fight with this post? Trump thinks we're as stupid as he is? Are you suggesting that he thinks we are all of high intelligence? I can't imagine that you mean that a self made billionaire is somehow retarded.

Where do you get this idea that we can't build the pipe in America? That does not seem accurate to me. Even if it is I submit that several hundred miles of pipe is worth retooling for. Then you list two plants that can make the pipe. If that is accurate then it would seem that the Canadians have their pipe covered. Perhaps if we offer Arkansas a statehood we can have ours manufactured in America and President Trump can keep his promise.

Two final remarks about your post. I really like your "shooting from the lips" remark, that is funny. Be careful about inviting people to punctuate your posts as that could get you in more trouble than getting your own punctuation wrong.


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

Viking said:


> Sounds like you've been reading some of the same things I have, a lot of the stuff I've been studying has come from Kitco Contributing Commentators.


Haven't actually been reading anything from them but you have me interested now. I'll go check em out.


----------



## AmishHeart

commas happen.


----------



## Viking

CrackbottomLouis said:


> Haven't actually been reading anything from them but you have me interested now. I'll go check em out.


Thing is, that's been a while back and a lot of the commentators I was reading then don't seem to be writing anymore. Doug Casey is one, Roger Wiegand, Jim Willie and Howard Ruff (of Ruff Times). Might do a search, I'm sure they have some good archived writings. Sadly, some are no longer with us, but my wife and I gained valuable lessons from all of them over the years. Of course the biggest thing that helped us get on the path of financial freedom and personal freedom was meeting some people at an off shore conference in March of 2001, we met and talked to Jon Rappoport and G. Edward Griffin, the author of "The Creature from Jekyll Island" the history of the Federal Reserve, his site is www.realityzone.com . Jon Rappoport has a website: www.nomorefakenews.com I just searched Howard Ruff, he died in 2016, so some of the people that I had been reading their articles are no longer around.


----------



## AmmoSgt

Caribou said:


> Is it your goal to pick a fight with this post? Trump thinks we're as stupid as he is? Are you suggesting that he thinks we are all of high intelligence? I can't imagine that you mean that a self made billionaire is somehow retarded.
> 
> Where do you get this idea that we can't build the pipe in America? That does not seem accurate to me. Even if it is I submit that several hundred miles of pipe is worth retooling for. Then you list two plants that can make the pipe. If that is accurate then it would seem that the Canadians have their pipe covered. Perhaps if we offer Arkansas a statehood we can have ours manufactured in America and President Trump can keep his promise.
> 
> Two final remarks about your post. I really like your "shooting from the lips" remark, that is funny. Be careful about inviting people to punctuate your posts as that could get you in more trouble than getting your own punctuation wrong.


Pick a fight.. no not really, a fight about what?

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, That Trump wants to do what is best for America and he made promises with less of an understanding of some of the complexities than he currently has at his disposal .. better advisors, better intelligence analysis as President than as a candidate.

He made campaign promises based on what he knew then... and he is having trouble fulfilling them based on the realities that he is now aware of .. Court decisions, impact on local groups and individuals helping US Forces overseas, separation of powers, civil rights and other Constitutional issues ... The fact the president doesn't make law.. we/ the FED can only print money to a limit authorized by Congress and not just pick money off the money tree willy nilly Ignoring pre vetting by the Federal ethics folks and the fact he needs Senate assent, The limits of Presidential power in general .. And yes there are plants that make the pipe , but they are not US plants.. the profits goes back to the home office in India and Russia.. it doesn't stay here in the community .. it's not as much of a loss as buying from an overseas plant, but it also isn't as much of a gain as if the plants were US owned .. in fact, it might actually not create as many US Jobs as having to mine and make the steel here as it does just fabricating the pipe here from foreign made steel Truthfully I haven't tracked down the whole issue .. but the steel made in the US seems to be the issue... and you may or may not be right about it being worth making the steel here.. since it appears they aren't doing the whole thing here in the US, the companies involved apparently do not think it is. You should write them and explain your conclusions about the economics of their business decisions. And how much of a delay would waiting for plants to retool to make the steel here cause.. is that caveat really worth holding on to, given much of the pipe has been bought and delivered and some unknown quantity of the pipe is no longer up to spec after years of outdoor storage? So to build the pipeline we already will have to rebuy some amount of pipe, and each day or month of delay increases the amount of pipe we will have to rebuy? I will defer to your economic expertise and appreciation of lost profits from not having the pipeline at all.

At any rate, now that Trump has more better faster gluten free intelligence analysis and lower calorie advice at his disposal .. he is not changing any positions , rather he is sticking to them because he made campaign promises.

He is willing to pursue courses of action that could stop the pipeline, and harm US foreign policy and endanger US Troops in the field according to his own top advisors. It also makes it clear that Trump formulate policy without thoroughly researching or understanding some of the issues involved .. some of which, for reason understandable, some for reasons I cannot grasp even under the most charitable interpretations ... but no matter.. the policy does not change nor get modified because he promised his supporters.

It does not seem to matter that there is a great deal of evidence that pursuing the original policy will likely do more harm than good .. and he doesn't think he can sell it to you or his supporters thru his leadership.

Broken campaign promises are a given in most cases .. Presidents once President often have to change positions or go for the politically possible to do the best for the nation. Holds true at all levels of government, elected official have to put the nation or town or state first and count the cost and drop or change some promises ... Trump doesn't seem to be able to do this and his excuse is his supporters.

Repeal and replace sounded good when 45% of Trump followers didn't grasp Obamacare and the ACA were the same thing.. now they know that, at least more of them do, more of them now understand it also involves Medicaid.

Didn't happen on day one.. 50+ republican votes to repeal when they didn't have a chance of actually doing it .. threat of a Presidential veto is now gone.. they could do it easily , but it would hurt Trump voters most.. and Republicans have to somehow deal with both demands to repeal and replace and the consequences in 2018 that will come from a lot of surprised and injured voters that didn't understand what they were asking for, and that they can't seem to make understand .. and that too, they fear, will have consequences come election day 2018. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Neither way will make everybody happy.. what is the best and most practical course for the nation.. Leadership on this issue alone .. choosing the best course, selling it and protecting the Republicans from the consequences of a much reduced backblast in 2018 would , all by itself, make Trump's Presidential bones. But he made promises to his supporters

They can't reopen coal mines unless they create a demand for coal.. the world has moved on .. the demand isn't there for 16 tons of reasons ..

Even bigger promises loom as does the debt ceiling with the inevitable consequences of political fights and something , maybe even most things, not getting funded... choices may have to be made.

Enlisting in the military for economic reason during hard times is not unheard of .. In an all volunteer force we have exactly the number of people that the pay will attract without raising pay or lowering standards .. we may not be able to raise pay.. especially if we increase funds for parts and maintenance 
http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ut-overall-operating-costs-increase/82248008/

AND THIS http://breakingdefense.com/2016/03/...wn-museum-f-18-for-spare-parts-how-bad-is-it/

The cost of the equipment is usually overshadowed by the cost of manning it and maintaining it . That is the problem the military is having now and severely aggravated by the introduction of new technologies at the same time https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi.../gIQAbbmoUP_story.html?utm_term=.c86ea3587d6a

http://pilotonline.com/news/militar...cle_ddb437da-2f58-5d8b-aa91-92514ffc32e9.html

http://thediplomat.com/2017/01/us-navy-to-receive-new-13-billion-aircraft-carrier-in-april-maybe/

You didn't hear any of the problems , that there is not a delivery date yet, that no sea trials have been done that it could be a year before it is deployable the other day when Trump was all praise and happy dance https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-pres...arks-president-trump-aboard-uss-gerald-r-ford






I have seen people on here say that what is good about Trump is he keeps his promises ... not that he does what is best for America .. new information, and access to new better more information analysis inevitably leads to changes, or should, at least in some cases.

You may have a point about the commas.. hence, spare commas, reduced to three ,,, use judiciously.


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

AmmoSgt said:


> Pick a fight.. no not really, a fight about what?
> 
> Let's assume, for the sake of argument, That Trump wants to do what is best for America and he made promises with less of an understanding of some of the complexities than he currently has at his disposal .. better advisors, better intelligence analysis as President than as a candidate.
> 
> He made campaign promises based on what he knew then... and he is having trouble fulfilling them based on the realities that he is now aware of .. Court decisions, impact on local groups and individuals helping US Forces overseas, separation of powers, civil rights and other Constitutional issues ... The fact the president doesn't make law.. we/ the FED can only print money to a limit authorized by Congress and not just pick money off the money tree willy nilly Ignoring pre vetting by the Federal ethics folks and the fact he needs Senate assent, The limits of Presidential power in general .. And yes there are plants that make the pipe , but they are not US plants.. the profits goes back to the home office in India and Russia.. it doesn't stay here in the community .. it's not as much of a loss as buying from an overseas plant, but it also isn't as much of a gain as if the plants were US owned .. in fact, it might actually not create as many US Jobs as having to mine and make the steel here as it does just fabricating the pipe here from foreign made steel Truthfully I haven't tracked down the whole issue .. but the steel made in the US seems to be the issue... and you may or may not be right about it being worth making the steel here.. since it appears they aren't doing the whole thing here in the US, the companies involved apparently do not think it is. You should write them and explain your conclusions about the economics of their business decisions. And how much of a delay would waiting for plants to retool to make the steel here cause.. is that caveat really worth holding on to, given much of the pipe has been bought and delivered and some unknown quantity of the pipe is no longer up to spec after years of outdoor storage? So to build the pipeline we already will have to rebuy some amount of pipe, and each day or month of delay increases the amount of pipe we will have to rebuy? I will defer to your economic expertise and appreciation of lost profits from not having the pipeline at all.
> 
> At any rate, now that Trump has more better faster gluten free intelligence analysis and lower calorie advice at his disposal .. he is not changing any positions , rather he is sticking to them because he made campaign promises.
> 
> He is willing to pursue courses of action that could stop the pipeline, and harm US foreign policy and endanger US Troops in the field according to his own top advisors. It also makes it clear that Trump formulate policy without thoroughly researching or understanding some of the issues involved .. some of which, for reason understandable, some for reasons I cannot grasp even under the most charitable interpretations ... but no matter.. the policy does not change nor get modified because he promised his supporters.
> 
> It does not seem to matter that there is a great deal of evidence that pursuing the original policy will likely do more harm than good .. and he doesn't think he can sell it to you or his supporters thru his leadership.
> 
> Broken campaign promises are a given in most cases .. Presidents once President often have to change positions or go for the politically possible to do the best for the nation. Holds true at all levels of government, elected official have to put the nation or town or state first and count the cost and drop or change some promises ... Trump doesn't seem to be able to do this and his excuse is his supporters.
> 
> Repeal and replace sounded good when 45% of Trump followers didn't grasp Obamacare and the ACA were the same thing.. now they know that, at least more of them do, more of them now understand it also involves Medicaid.
> 
> Didn't happen on day one.. 50+ republican votes to repeal when they didn't have a chance of actually doing it .. threat of a Presidential veto is now gone.. they could do it easily , but it would hurt Trump voters most.. and Republicans have to somehow deal with both demands to repeal and replace and the consequences in 2018 that will come from a lot of surprised and injured voters that didn't understand what they were asking for, and that they can't seem to make understand .. and that too, they fear, will have consequences come election day 2018. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Neither way will make everybody happy.. what is the best and most practical course for the nation.. Leadership on this issue alone .. choosing the best course, selling it and protecting the Republicans from the consequences of a much reduced backblast in 2018 would , all by itself, make Trump's Presidential bones. But he made promises to his supporters
> 
> They can't reopen coal mines unless they create a demand for coal.. the world has moved on .. the demand isn't there for 16 tons of reasons ..
> 
> Even bigger promises loom as does the debt ceiling with the inevitable consequences of political fights and something , maybe even most things, not getting funded... choices may have to be made.
> 
> Enlisting in the military for economic reason during hard times is not unheard of .. In an all volunteer force we have exactly the number of people that the pay will attract without raising pay or lowering standards .. we may not be able to raise pay.. especially if we increase funds for parts and maintenance
> http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ut-overall-operating-costs-increase/82248008/
> 
> AND THIS http://breakingdefense.com/2016/03/...wn-museum-f-18-for-spare-parts-how-bad-is-it/
> 
> The cost of the equipment is usually overshadowed by the cost of manning it and maintaining it . That is the problem the military is having now and severely aggravated by the introduction of new technologies at the same time https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi.../gIQAbbmoUP_story.html?utm_term=.c86ea3587d6a
> 
> http://pilotonline.com/news/militar...cle_ddb437da-2f58-5d8b-aa91-92514ffc32e9.html
> 
> http://thediplomat.com/2017/01/us-navy-to-receive-new-13-billion-aircraft-carrier-in-april-maybe/
> 
> You didn't hear any of the problems , that there is not a delivery date yet, that no sea trials have been done that it could be a year before it is deployable the other day when Trump was all praise and happy dance https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-pres...arks-president-trump-aboard-uss-gerald-r-ford


----------



## Caribou

CrackbottomLouis said:


> Answering all your anti Trump rants is getting so boring I'm just gonna leave this here,,,,,,,,


Quoted for truth.


----------



## BillS

The biggest problem though is the dollar. Countries are dumping their treasury bonds when they mature. The Federal Reserve creates the money out of thin air to pay them off. America has a $800 billion annual trade deficit and a $1 trillion budget deficit. We also import 50% of our food.

The petro-dollar system is dying too. It used to be that countries stockpiled dollars so they could use them to buy oil. Saudi Arabia's excess dollars were held in treasury bonds. Now with the low price of oil Saudi Arabia doesn't have excess dollars and other countries don't need so many dollars to buy oil. Not only that, more and more countries are making agreements to trade outside the dollar. A recent one involves India buying oil from Iran using gold with Turkey involved as in intermediary. 

Debt is exploding around the world. In the US it's government debt at all levels. It's new car loans and student loans with pension plans going broke. We are going to have an economic collapse. It's taking a lot longer than I thought it would but it's coming.

We're going to see hyperinflation in America. It's a 100% mathematical certainty. After the stock and bond markets tank and we start seeing double digit monthly inflation there's going to be panic buying of precious metals. I think we'll see both gold and silver prices explode with silver going much higher than it's traditional 1/12 to 1/16 of the gold price. We might see a 1/2 silver to gold price before it goes back to it's traditional ratio. There's a time coming when there will be great property deals waiting to happen if you have enough silver. Maybe you'll be able to buy an above average home for 500 ounces of silver. 

America is going to become a third world country because we don't have enough industry and we have way too many people getting government benefits. One of the reasons is out of wedlock births. Few single women with two or more children ever pay more in taxes than they get in benefits, for example.

To me, the real question is this: Do we have a steady decline in our standard of living until we're like Venezuela? Or is there a sudden collapse where the nationwide power grids go down and 90% of Americans die?


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

BillS said:


> The biggest problem though is the dollar. Countries are dumping their treasury bonds when they mature. The Federal Reserve creates the money out of thin air to pay them off. America has a $800 billion annual trade deficit and a $1 trillion budget deficit. We also import 50% of our food.
> 
> The petro-dollar system is dying too. It used to be that countries stockpiled dollars so they could use them to buy oil. Saudi Arabia's excess dollars were held in treasury bonds. Now with the low price of oil Saudi Arabia doesn't have excess dollars and other countries don't need so many dollars to buy oil. Not only that, more and more countries are making agreements to trade outside the dollar. A recent one involves India buying oil from Iran using gold with Turkey involved as in intermediary.
> 
> Debt is exploding around the world. In the US it's government debt at all levels. It's new car loans and student loans with pension plans going broke. We are going to have an economic collapse. It's taking a lot longer than I thought it would but it's coming.
> 
> We're going to see hyperinflation in America. It's a 100% mathematical certainty. After the stock and bond markets tank and we start seeing double digit monthly inflation there's going to be panic buying of precious metals. I think we'll see both gold and silver prices explode with silver going much higher than it's traditional 1/12 to 1/16 of the gold price. We might see a 1/2 silver to gold price before it goes back to it's traditional ratio. There's a time coming when there will be great property deals waiting to happen if you have enough silver. Maybe you'll be able to buy an above average home for 500 ounces of silver.
> 
> America is going to become a third world country because we don't have enough industry and we have way too many people getting government benefits. One of the reasons is out of wedlock births. Few single women with two or more children ever pay more in taxes than they get in benefits, for example.
> 
> To me, the real question is this: Do we have a steady decline in our standard of living until we're like Venezuela? Or is there a sudden collapse where the nationwide power grids go down and 90% of Americans die?


The US and world economy is certainly in a precarious position. I wonder if we are already in a steady decline and the sudden dips (like 2008) will just get more dramatic as we go. It might be easier for those that prepare to handle a significant collapse with a quicker recovery (if that's even possible) than a drawn out decline that lasts much much longer. Either way we are in for some pain. Hopefully improving our economy to the point we add value and desirability to the dollar will have a positive effect. I guess we will see if we can A. Pull that off and B. Have it help enough to make a difference. I certainly don't see any other course of action with at least the potential to have a positive effect. Keep calm and prep on. Hopefully things will improve enough at least short term for us to step up our preparedness level.


----------



## LastOutlaw

CrackbottomLouis said:


> Blah, blah, blah


You forgot to add "liberal rag quote, liberal rag quote, liberal rag quote" to the Blah Blah blah.


----------



## LastOutlaw

I'll give you all one piece of advice.....Work you asses off to get debt free and self sufficient, then figure out a way to pay your property taxes once it all goes to sheeeet.


----------



## BillS

LastOutlaw said:


> I'll give you all one piece of advice.....Work you asses off to get debt free and self sufficient, then figure out a way to pay your property taxes once it all goes to sheeeet.


It's another good reason to invest in PM's. Especially silver.


----------



## tsrwivey

AmmoSgt said:


> The minimum wage is not, imho, a perfect example ( mind you I am against a minimum wage on principle , reality forces me to have another point of view) . employers have right, even an obligation, to make a profit from each person they hire and should, in an ideal world, never hire somebody that costs more than the worth of what they produce. However as things now stand the employers pay low wages and reap extraordinary profits and fob the cost of a living wage off on the taxpayer by subsidizing low wages thru everything from subsidized health care to rent assistance to food stamps.
> 
> To me this means the taxpayers thru the government should /must mandate wages that do not force the taxpayer to support working people ( I think as a nation we have an obligation to support or make it possible for folks who are too old or too disabled or to infirm to provide a profitable level of productive participation or a dignified retirement with participation of the citizen thru their working life , but always with a bias to providing a possibility of productive participation over just a substance stipend ).


If the lifetime minimum wage earner has such valuable skills for which they're grossly underpaid, why doesn't someone start a business, hire them, & pay them what they're really worth? Why don't YOU? Hire you a few & you just might figure out why they make minimum wage. We've owned a construction company for over 20 years & I'll tell you why they make minimum wage.

*. They're chronologically challenged - they come in late, leave early, no call/no show, & don't come back from lunch.

*. They can't self motivate. Someone must be supervising them directly at all times or they'll be on their phones, in their car asleep, laid up on the client's sofa watching TV, outside chain smoking & throwing their butts in the client's yard, or talking to the other workers keeping them from their work.

*. They lack the ability to form sentences without a profanity & don't realize it's inappropriate to wear shirts with profanities to work.

* They wake up in a whole new world everyday. The task you taught them how to do yesterday, they can't do today.

*. They have a high rate of addiction. Addicts do two things: they lie & they steal.

*. They have the marketable skills of a child. If your average 10 year old can't do it, neither can they.

*. They lack basic math, reading, & English skills.

*. They have the self control of a 4 year old. They can't handle frustration, discomfort, anger, etc. They have no concept of postponed gratification or trying to get ahead financially.

*. They've got lots of personal drama that effects their job. They miss work because their car got impounded, they're in jail, baby momma drama, etc.

* criminal records. Crimes like theft or violence are hard to get over & severely limit what environment they can be trusted in.

* they take the last quarter of the year off so that their income isn't too high to qualify for the earned income credit on their taxes.  (my personal favorite)

I could go on & on. I can't tell you how many times its cost me thousands to fix what the above worker screwed up. Obviously not every worker has every characteristic. On day one, we tell each of them what is expected of them (we put it in writing) & how to get a raise quickly. (We give real $1/hr raises, not nickel & dime.). Folks who show up, try to do a decent job, & learn more marketable skills will quickly increase their pay or they will go elsewhere and believe me, workers talk about which company is paying more, which has better benefits, etc.

Our company didn't fail these folks. Their parents & the public school system, they failed. And you expect the business owner to pick up the tab? I'm not a charity, I'm not looking for dependents. I don't owe them anymore than what we've negotiated. You want me to pay the above yahoos $15 an hour? That's more than a paramedic or EMT makes here. (Cost of living is low here).

The only folks that should be able to draw lifelong government benefits are the truly disabled. Homeless with kids? Put them in group homes with curfews, chores, & rules. Deadbeat dad? There's plenty of government owned lawns to be mowed, trash to pick up, & park bathrooms to clean. The rest of them will figure it out when their belly button gets close enough to their spines.

When minimum wage goes up, the cost of everything else goes up making everyone else's money buy less. The answer is to stop the handouts & stop rewarding bad behavior, not make employers pay someone more than they're worth. I'm not taking a cut in pay so they're pay is increased, I'll increase what I charge for my services. Again, businesses aren't charities.


----------



## JayJay

tsrwivey said:


> If the lifetime minimum wage earner has such valuable skills for which they're grossly underpaid, why doesn't someone start a business, hire them, & pay them what they're really worth? Why don't YOU? Hire you a few & you just might figure out why they make minimum wage. We've owned a construction company for over 20 years & I'll tell you why they make minimum wage.
> 
> *. They're chronologically challenged - they come in late, leave early, no call/no show, & don't come back from lunch.
> 
> *. They can't self motivate. Someone must be supervising them directly at all times or they'll be on their phones, in their car asleep, laid up on the client's sofa watching TV, outside chain smoking & throwing their butts in the client's yard, or talking to the other workers keeping them from their work.
> 
> *. They lack the ability to form sentences without a profanity & don't realize it's inappropriate to wear shirts with profanities to work.
> 
> * They wake up in a whole new world everyday. The task you taught them how to do yesterday, they can't do today.
> 
> *. They have a high rate of addiction. Addicts do two things: they lie & they steal.
> 
> *. They have the marketable skills of a child. If your average 10 year old can't do it, neither can they.
> 
> *. They lack basic math, reading, & English skills.
> 
> *. They have the self control of a 4 year old. They can't handle frustration, discomfort, anger, etc. They have no concept of postponed gratification or trying to get ahead financially.
> 
> *. They've got lots of personal drama that effects their job. They miss work because their car got impounded, they're in jail, baby momma drama, etc.
> 
> * criminal records. Crimes like theft or violence are hard to get over & severely limit what environment they can be trusted in.
> 
> * they take the last quarter of the year off so that their income isn't too high to qualify for the earned income credit on their taxes.  (my personal favorite)
> 
> I could go on & on. I can't tell you how many times its cost me thousands to fix what the above worker screwed up. Obviously not every worker has every characteristic. On day one, we tell each of them what is expected of them (we put it in writing) & how to get a raise quickly. (We give real $1/hr raises, not nickel & dime.). Folks who show up, try to do a decent job, & learn more marketable skills will quickly increase their pay or they will go elsewhere and believe me, workers talk about which company is paying more, which has better benefits, etc.
> 
> Our company didn't fail these folks. Their parents & the public school system, they failed. And you expect the business owner to pick up the tab? I'm not a charity, I'm not looking for dependents. I don't owe them anymore than what we've negotiated. You want me to pay the above yahoos $15 an hour? That's more than a paramedic or EMT makes here. (Cost of living is low here).
> 
> The only folks that should be able to draw lifelong government benefits are the truly disabled. Homeless with kids? Put them in group homes with curfews, chores, & rules. Deadbeat dad? There's plenty of government owned lawns to be mowed, trash to pick up, & park bathrooms to clean. The rest of them will figure it out when their belly button gets close enough to their spines.
> 
> When minimum wage goes up, the cost of everything else goes up making everyone else's money buy less. The answer is to stop the handouts & stop rewarding bad behavior, not make employers pay someone more than they're worth. I'm not taking a cut in pay so they're pay is increased, I'll increase what I charge for my services. Again, businesses aren't charities.


Excellent post...artydance:
{{{When minimum wage goes up, the cost of everything else goes up}}}

Like the folks that bought a house, lived in it for 5-10 years(doesn't matter) and sold it to profit a few thousand...AND THEN BOUGHT ANOTHER HOUSE THAT COST THEM A FEW MORE THOUSAND THAN YEARS BEFORE BECAUSE EVERY OTHER HOME OWNER HAD SAME IDEA AS THEM!!!!!!!!:dunno:

I had a friend that did this for decades.. but every new mortgage cost more, monthly payment was more, taxes/homeownerswas more, what did they really achieve??


----------



## AmishHeart

I'm liking you 5 times, TSRWivey.
I employ workers at our preschool starting at $9 an hour. It goes up to $9.50 if they last 60 days. They will not last if they show up late, have drama call ins, are not professional, do not believe me when I tell them what the dress code is, use their cell phone at work....
Step two is they have to take CPR and First Aid, and be food service certified. I pay for their class and the time it takes to take the class. You wouldn't believe how many people I lose.


----------



## AmmoSgt

tsrwivey said:


> If the lifetime minimum wage earner has such valuable skills for which they're grossly underpaid, why doesn't someone start a business, hire them, & pay them what they're really worth? Why don't YOU? Hire you a few & you just might figure out why they make minimum wage. We've owned a construction company for over 20 years & I'll tell you why they make minimum wage.
> 
> *. They're chronologically challenged - they come in late, leave early, no call/no show, & don't come back from lunch.
> 
> *. They can't self motivate. Someone must be supervising them directly at all times or they'll be on their phones, in their car asleep, laid up on the client's sofa watching TV, outside chain smoking & throwing their butts in the client's yard, or talking to the other workers keeping them from their work.
> 
> *. They lack the ability to form sentences without a profanity & don't realize it's inappropriate to wear shirts with profanities to work.
> 
> * They wake up in a whole new world everyday. The task you taught them how to do yesterday, they can't do today.
> 
> *. They have a high rate of addiction. Addicts do two things: they lie & they steal.
> 
> *. They have the marketable skills of a child. If your average 10 year old can't do it, neither can they.
> 
> *. They lack basic math, reading, & English skills.
> 
> *. They have the self control of a 4 year old. They can't handle frustration, discomfort, anger, etc. They have no concept of postponed gratification or trying to get ahead financially.
> 
> *. They've got lots of personal drama that effects their job. They miss work because their car got impounded, they're in jail, baby momma drama, etc.
> 
> * criminal records. Crimes like theft or violence are hard to get over & severely limit what environment they can be trusted in.
> 
> * they take the last quarter of the year off so that their income isn't too high to qualify for the earned income credit on their taxes.  (my personal favorite)
> 
> I could go on & on. I can't tell you how many times its cost me thousands to fix what the above worker screwed up. Obviously not every worker has every characteristic. On day one, we tell each of them what is expected of them (we put it in writing) & how to get a raise quickly. (We give real $1/hr raises, not nickel & dime.). Folks who show up, try to do a decent job, & learn more marketable skills will quickly increase their pay or they will go elsewhere and believe me, workers talk about which company is paying more, which has better benefits, etc.
> 
> Our company didn't fail these folks. Their parents & the public school system, they failed. And you expect the business owner to pick up the tab? I'm not a charity, I'm not looking for dependents. I don't owe them anymore than what we've negotiated. You want me to pay the above yahoos $15 an hour? That's more than a paramedic or EMT makes here. (Cost of living is low here).
> 
> The only folks that should be able to draw lifelong government benefits are the truly disabled. Homeless with kids? Put them in group homes with curfews, chores, & rules. Deadbeat dad? There's plenty of government owned lawns to be mowed, trash to pick up, & park bathrooms to clean. The rest of them will figure it out when their belly button gets close enough to their spines.
> 
> When minimum wage goes up, the cost of everything else goes up making everyone else's money buy less. The answer is to stop the handouts & stop rewarding bad behavior, not make employers pay someone more than they're worth. I'm not taking a cut in pay so they're pay is increased, I'll increase what I charge for my services. Again, businesses aren't charities.


I know this is an emotional issue, and you either misread or misunderstood what I posted. You certainly missed the point.

You should never have to hire anybody. or keep nybody on the job that doesn't make a profit for you.. You say you do. Why in God's name would you or do you do that> I don't understand that.. your business if you do.. Nothing I am in favor of.

My point using the hypothetical $15 as a benchmark of a living wage is that is about what minimum wage workers get, if not in wages alone, then in wages and benefits like EIC and section 8 housing, Medicaid/ Obamacare subsidies, aid to defendant children very low payroll deductions .. the list goes on. 
You yourself admit workers take part of the year off to maintain EIC eligibility if they make too much thru wages ...

Right now, you are working with one arm tied behind your back if you are trying to do the right thing and pay a living wage .. because your competitors let the tax payer pick up the slack and underbid you, because their labor costs are lower .. same with hiring Illegals. You can do the Trump plan all day long and at great tax payer expense and not end the problem, or you can arrest the folks that hire them and seize the business as a corrupt criminal enterprise for a much lower cost to the tax payer.. and pretty soon nobody still walking among decent citizens will hire illegals and they will go to wherever the jobs are.

My main point is in a level labor market, and a minimum wage that is a "living wage"( the mythical $15 an hour) you can pass the cost on to the consumer and still not get underbid AND eliminate or shrink most of the government support programs and eliminating a lot of government jobs that administer them.. smaller government, lower taxes or my preference lower deficits perhaps even paying down the existing debt.

Right now , without an enforced minimum wage and an enforced E-Verify .. you can't compete if you are honest and follow the law.

Coincidentally the reason I use the $15 and hour figure is that at $15 an hour and being ineligible for government support .. folks have a bring home pay that is about the same as $7.50 and all the federal support programs that accrue ( single childless bring home more, family with two kids bring home about the same with both parents working, but in general bring home is about the same overall). The consumer pays more for whatever they are buying , but potentially less in taxes eventually.. we do have massive debt to pay down, we can do it either paying about half of all the minimum wage earners take home pay with tax dollars, or not.

Workers see little change in take home .. Federal budget sees a massive reduction in welfare costs .. employer can compete on a level playing field and if they operate at the same profit margin get X% of a larger payroll and receipts payable .. It would also be somewhat inflationary making the national debt easier to pay off in that regard as well..

But regardless of the wage laws .. I wouldn't be hiring screw ups that cost the business money. Like I said it's an emotional issue, folks have locked themselves in to positions without doing the math or looking at the larger picture. And that's fine.. you keep doing what you are doing , you will keep getting what you get.. if that is working for you or if you would prefer more larger government programs to support the unskilled and unschooled .. no need to change anything.


----------



## readytogo

This is why, is all about the profit and stock holders.
General Motors will lay off 1,100 workers at Michigan plant .
http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...t-michigan-plant/ar-AAnTIqV?OCID=ansmsnnews11
A border tax could make your next car cost $2,500 more 
http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/mark...-dollar2500-more/ar-AAnU2BS?OCID=ansmsnnews11
The Casualties of a U.S.-China Trade War
http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/mark...-china-trade-war/ar-AAnUwAl?OCID=ansmsnnews11
A trade war or separating America from the rest of the world is a bad policy, the world separated Germany and Japan and look what happen ,it may not be bombs and bullets but another global depression is possible ,saved your money folks and pay your credit and don`t forget to start a liberty garden.


----------



## AmishHeart

Wouldn't make any difference. If I started my employees at $15. an hour and then gave then educational and annual raises, my prices to my customers would go up about 1/4. No other way to do it. I live near Albuquerque, and in Santa Fe they did enact this "living wage" law. Unemployment jumped. The cost of everything in Santa Fe went up, including grocery store prices, minimarts, and even McDonalds. The money has to come from somewhere. In the business I own, the only money coming in is from parent tuition. If enrollment is down, I don't take take a paycheck. We don't take in money from the federal govt. You say it would cost us less in entitlement payments (ebt, general welfare, child care subsidies, etc., etc) if people made more. I don't believe our govt would ever lower our taxes because we would be giving people a "living" wage and they wouldn't need any more. No. Our govt would find something else to spend it on. They would not use money saved to pay towards our national debt. That's just too funny. And anyway, prices go up on goods, so the pay increase would just pay for that. 
I can see that you've never owned a business that employs people in lower paying positions. It's not working too well in Santa Fe. We don't shop there, and would never even buy gas there. Just interviewed a lady applying for a teaching position from Santa Fe. Her husband got a job in our neck of the woods. She has schooling in early childhood, but no experience at all. She said her minimum starting pay was $15 an hour requested. That wasn't going to happen.


----------



## Caribou

Where is it that people get the idea that minimum wage jobs are supposed to be careers. You work minimum wage till you get out of school or you get on your feet. You show up, on time, and work your butt off. After a year or so you find a better job. The reference you get from the current job get you more. Perhaps you get a raise or a promotion. 

The liberals ruined more minimum wage jobs through their policy of trying to pretend that they should be careers. By making employers pay benefits these minimum wage earners just got their hours cut to fewer than thirty hours. That is a 25% reduction in pay. Not having ruined enough lives they now want $15 an hour pay. Surprise! Employers automate or figure out how to do with fewer employees. 

People look at this backwards. It is not the employer that gets hurt. What is happening is that the government is telling you that you can't work for less than a random minimum wage. If you want to work for five dollars an hour and each hour puts a meal in you belly or that of your children then why should the government require that you starve your children, or keep them from a warm hearth or clothing? Why should the government support you in continuing to make poor choices?


----------



## AmishHeart

The govt wants to be everyones sugar daddy.


----------



## tsrwivey

AmmoSgt said:


> I know this is an emotional issue, and you either misread or misunderstood what I posted. You certainly missed the point.


Im not emotional about it at all & there's nothing wrong with my reading ability or comprehension skills. I completely understand what you are saying, you're just wrong. Don't let the boobs fool you, emotion doesn't rule my world & I'm no dummy.  



AmmoSgt said:


> My point using the hypothetical $15 as a benchmark of a living wage is that is about what minimum wage workers get, if not in wages alone, then in wages and benefits like EIC and section 8 housing, Medicaid/ Obamacare subsidies, aid to defendant children very low payroll deductions .. the list goes on.
> You yourself admit workers take part of the year off to maintain EIC eligibility if they make too much thru wages ...





AmmoSgt said:


> Right now, you are working with one arm tied behind your back *if you are trying to do the right thing and pay a living wage *.. because your competitors let the tax payer pick up the slack and underbid you, because their labor costs are lower .. same with hiring Illegals. *You can do the Trump plan all day long and at great tax payer expense and not end the problem, or you can arrest the folks that hire them and seize the business as a corrupt criminal enterpris*e for a much lower cost to the tax payer.. and pretty soon nobody still walking among decent citizens will hire illegals and they will go to wherever the jobs are.
> Right now , without an enforced minimum wage and an enforced E-Verify .. you can't compete if you are honest and follow the law.


Wow. That's sounds fair. The government screws up education so bad that taxpayers are spending $10K a year for 13 years but still the kid has no marketable skills nor the knowledge necessary to go to college. The government fails to secure the border so we have who knows how many illegals running around and your answer is to give businesses another hoop to jump through with e-verify & give government the power to seize a business if they don't jump through it? In what universe is that even remotely logical? The government was PAID to secure the border & failed to do so & your genius ass answer is to give them MORE power!? Wanna know why Main Street is dead & large businesses are moving overseas? :scratch It's not the job of business to fix the mess government has made of things, it's the job of business to make money. I pay my employees well & treat them well because it makes the business money. There is absolutely nothing immoral about paying someone minimum wage. Government & other busybodies should stop sticking their noses in the deals made by two consenting adults. 



AmmoSgt said:


> Coincidentally the reason I use the $15 and hour figure is that at $15 an hour and being ineligible for government support .. folks have a bring home pay that is about the same as $7.50 and all the federal support programs that accrue ( single childless bring home more, family with two kids bring home about the same with both parents working, but in general bring home is about the same overall). The consumer pays more for whatever they are buying , but potentially less in taxes eventually.. we do have massive debt to pay down, we can do it either paying about half of all the minimum wage earners take home pay with tax dollars, or not.


I want some of whatever you're smoking. You do realize them liberals have promised all this sunshine & lollipops before if we just increased minimum wage? Funny how it never seems to work but folks (apparently with memory problems) still keep falling for it. Our taxes aren't going to be lower & the government isn't going to pay down the debt. It's just not going to happen. 



AmmoSgt said:


> Workers see little change in take home .. Federal budget sees a massive reduction in welfare costs .. employer can compete on a level playing field and if they operate at the same profit margin get X% of a larger payroll and receipts payable .. It would also be somewhat inflationary making the national debt easier to pay off in that regard as well..


Somewhat inflationary? Only somewhat? There was a time when a family could live a comfortable middle class life on just one income & they had more kids. What about the vast majority of Americans who already earn more than minimum wage? Their cost of living increases but their pay doesn't come up enough to cover it. 



AmmoSgt said:


> Like I said it's an emotional issue, folks have locked themselves in to positions without doing the math or looking at the larger picture.


Im coming from a pediatric nurse & construction company background, I have a pretty good view of the picture & I always do the math. .


----------



## bkt

A minimum-wage job is not meant to keep someone housed, clothed and fed; it doesn't pay a "living wage". Minimum-wage jobs require few or no skills and are designed for young people entering the workforce. Having a job at all shows a) they're employable, and b) they can hold a job for a summer or semester. That is how it has always been.

The government has established a new premise: that all jobs must pay a living wage which is enough for one person to live on their own. By acknowledging that premise is dead wrong, we can address the issue of minimum wages and whether or not they need to be adjusted.

And as tsrwivey touches on above, our government schools generally do a piss-poor job of preparing anyone for work or college. This is symptomatic of the bigger problem of our culture being shaped to make us as dependent as possible on the government.


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

Caribou said:


> Where is it that people get the idea that minimum wage jobs are supposed to be careers. You work minimum wage till you get out of school or you get on your feet. You show up, on time, and work your butt off. After a year or so you find a better job. The reference you get from the current job get you more. Perhaps you get a raise or a promotion.
> 
> The liberals ruined more minimum wage jobs through their policy of trying to pretend that they should be careers. By making employers pay benefits these minimum wage earners just got their hours cut to fewer than thirty hours. That is a 25% reduction in pay. Not having ruined enough lives they now want $15 an hour pay. Surprise! Employers automate or figure out how to do with fewer employees.
> 
> People look at this backwards. It is not the employer that gets hurt. What is happening is that the government is telling you that you can't work for less than a random minimum wage. If you want to work for five dollars an hour and each hour puts a meal in you belly or that of your children then why should the government require that you starve your children, or keep them from a warm hearth or clothing? Why should the government support you in continuing to make poor choices?


Just wanted to give folks a chance to read this again.


----------



## tsrwivey

readytogo said:


> This is why, is all about the profit and stock holders.


What in the world is a business supposed to be about?! Someone has to do the work that keeps this country going. Someone has to make money to pay the bills. Someone has to make the money that's paid out in retirement accounts. It doesn't come out of thin air. You wouldn't want all those old folks to starve, would you? :kiss:

Seems like since roughly half of the country votes Democrat, if they actually put their money, time, & effort where their mouths are, we wouldn't have any poor, unemployed, medically untreated, etc.

Liberals holler for more union benefits, free healthcare, more EPA regulations, theft by over taxation, & 100 other ways of creating a hostile environment for businesses. They do what we'd all do when treated like we're not wanted- they leave. I don't blame them. Maybe this country will figure it out, maybe it won't. :dunno:


----------



## readytogo

The economy is a tough issue for all and many will argue government policies or blame the liberals or democrats or republicans but to be honest I could care less who is ruling ,I have this policy that work brings money in and saving keeps money safe ,living within your earnings is the key ,many will not work because the job is below their pay scale or is dirty or they have pride ,well I need to feed my family and self ,I need to survived so I work in whatever I can physically do ,going to school and two jobs was the norm for me ,my father had 2 jobs ,I went from $16 an hour to $4.50 ,never stop working ,lost my 26 year job ,became disable and had enough saving bonds to keep me going for a few years ,all about the savings not the new truck or flat screen TV or iPhone ,never miss a meal or fail to pay my electric bill. There is always something out there to make money but if we spend our time complaining or criticizing others or the government ,is natural not to have time for a job or help the family. Is not the government's fault that you fail to get an education or training ,immigrants are coming across the border with that training ,they work and send money home ,the kids next door just came here from Cuba, full time school and jobs to boot ,their father works 12 hours days plus fixes houses ,the mother clean houses ,they have no time for politics or seating around watching TV.I met a lady that is taking care my friends sick mother ,she put 2 kids thru college doing so and cleaning houses ,and she is proud of it ,a immigrant to boot .The lesson here is that complaining or bigoting about others will not put food on your table, you may look smart at the barber shop but that`s all.


----------



## JayJay

[[[Not having ruined enough lives they now want $15 an hour pay. Surprise! Employers automate or figure out how to do with fewer employees.]]]
Didn't you hear?? In Seattle it backfired. Those receiving the raise lost their welfare, food stamps, govt. assistance because......ready??
THEIR EARNINGS WERE TOO HIGH!!:rofl:


----------



## readytogo

*Temporary foreign workers . EPI.org*

Illegal's are not the problem in our job search our government has programs to import workers from overseas that our political boys fail to mention and why is this, is it because legal citizens don`t want to work or don`t have the education/training to do the job or plain laziness or maybe government handouts, I don`t know but is a reality.
http://www.epi.org/publication/temp...numbers-new-estimates-by-visa-classification/
EPI.org has great information on many of our concerns and issues ,great teaching tool.


----------



## hiwall

> Illegal's are not the problem in our job search our government has programs to import workers from overseas that our political boys fail to mention and why is this, is it because legal citizens don`t want to work or don`t have the education/training to do the job or plain laziness or maybe government handouts, I don`t know but is a reality.


Everything is wrong with this^^.
Often times the American workers are forced to train these foreign workers and once they are trained and working at a much lower wage the US workers are then fired. 
And yes illegals ARE the problem also.


----------



## AmmoSgt

tsrwivey said:


> Im not emotional about it at all & there's nothing wrong with my reading ability or comprehension skills. I completely understand what you are saying, you're just wrong. Don't let the boobs fool you, emotion doesn't rule my world & I'm no dummy.
> 
> Wow. That's sounds fair. The government screws up education so bad that taxpayers are spending $10K a year for 13 years but still the kid has no marketable skills nor the knowledge necessary to go to college. The government fails to secure the border so we have who knows how many illegals running around and your answer is to give businesses another hoop to jump through with e-verify & give government the power to seize a business if they don't jump through it? In what universe is that even remotely logical? The government was PAID to secure the border & failed to do so & your genius ass answer is to give them MORE power!? Wanna know why Main Street is dead & large businesses are moving overseas? :scratch It's not the job of business to fix the mess government has made of things, it's the job of business to make money. I pay my employees well & treat them well because it makes the business money. There is absolutely nothing immoral about paying someone minimum wage. Government & other busybodies should stop sticking their noses in the deals made by two consenting adults.
> 
> I want some of whatever you're smoking. You do realize them liberals have promised all this sunshine & lollipops before if we just increased minimum wage? Funny how it never seems to work but folks (apparently with memory problems) still keep falling for it. Our taxes aren't going to be lower & the government isn't going to pay down the debt. It's just not going to happen.
> 
> Somewhat inflationary? Only somewhat? There was a time when a family could live a comfortable middle class life on just one income & they had more kids. What about the vast majority of Americans who already earn more than minimum wage? Their cost of living increases but their pay doesn't come up enough to cover it.
> 
> Im coming from a pediatric nurse & construction company background, I have a pretty good view of the picture & I always do the math. .


Didn't know you had boobs , I don't use my boobs for decision making , so I don't assume others do.. used emotional as a nice way to say pigheaded. What we are doing isn't working.. Business is being affected too much by government, while being too dependent on government at the same time.

Everybody talks a good game.. "not free trade, fair trade" .. but only with overseas stuff .. domestic stuff, the less than law-abiding hire illegals, hire under the table, and underbid the folks trying to do right by the regs and the workers .. nobody gets their business taken if they are playing fair and straight.. get the crooks out of the game and more business for the honest folks.

Do you want illegals or don't you? the way to stop them is to cut off why they are here, jobs. And yes, it is going to take higher wages to get Americans to be maids and stoop labor in the fields .. that is what it means when you say you do not want illegals .. and it is illegals , as much as because that is the only way they can be exploited like they are, is the fact they are undocumented ... It's like the jobs that China stole .. name the jobs that you want to see come back.. sewing blue jeans and making tennis shoes weren't prized jobs when they were here.. and prized employees weren't the ones doing the work.. it was almost generational down here momma sewed jeans and daughter was brought up knowing sewing jeans was going to be her life .. then electronic assembly was the same way .. assembly line electronics is what you did when you couldn't do anything else .. they sure as hell weren't " good paying jobs" they were paying jobs and they were manufacturing for as long as that contract lasted.. but folks weren't sad to see them go, if they are honest.. they got sad when nothing else came along to replace them except processing chicken and picking peaches , and then the illegals took that and only because nobody wanted that job at the pay offered or the fact it was seasonal or by the contract.. When I grow up I want a really cool job breaking plastic parts off the sprue when they come out of the mold.

Getting rid of the illegals is going to increase prices.. double on some things, but only because Americans will only do it for higher wages than illegals will do it, if they will do it at all. Legalize the illegals and you won't have to raise prices as much. Pay $15 minimum and you drastically cut the federal budget and start some down end completion for wages. pay $12 and legalize you spark competition and get most folks off assistance .. $ 12 and status and you get your pick of the talent on this continent.. make a legal job a requirement for a green card .. folks who can't get a legal job, or lose the one they have go home. Folks who hire illegals or under the table are running a illegal enterprise and should be shut down. Controlling the jobs is a bigger and better way of controlling immigration, legal and illegal, than trying to control the border with the picayune budget folks want to pay.

Not just fair trade with China .. Fair trade practices with your competition right here in the USA.

Folks need to quit romanticizing running a sock making machine as good paying manufacturing job or thinking picking blue berries is a desirable profession .. Those are the starter jobs ..

My eldest, when he finish his post grad and got a "real job" in his chosen field ... he put his self thru school doing warehouse work night shift... I paid off everything left over AFTER he graduated as a surprise graduation present. I asked him if the job came with any benefits ..( all he had talked about was the pay) he said "oh hellyeah comes with a chair, air conditioning in the summer and heat in the winter.. and some other stuff"...

Folks pretty much understand the kind of work Illegals do... it's stuff somebody has got to do ... about 40% of your fresh food/ fruits/ vegetables are hand picked .. those are going to double or worse , be hard to find, or even worse put US Farmers out of business because imports flown in on reefer 747's are cheaper. You will definitely be cutting up your own chicken and KFC is going to become a Sunday night occasional treat .. domestic labor is going to be over that $15 minimum .. just from fighting over the few left who will do it.. and you will have to settle for lower quality work or go without and clean your own house ... Hotels and restaurants are going to be more expensive... and construction? "Katy bar the door" and " grab a cold 'tater and wait yer turn" $15 doesn't get dry wall hung now, at least not here.

Letting personal feelings create a real problem, with no proposed fix at all, is what I meant by an emotional issue. throw the illegals out as if there would be no reasons or consequences not to. No reason to carefully craft policy so we could get the most upside and the least downside and not even talk about the cost of catching up 11 million people the detention the hearings the whole kit and caboodle .. it's going to cost big time .. "but we don't discuss the pros and cons, we just want them gone" that kind of emotional issue.

China hasn't stolen jobs .. it's the largest car market in the world .. US and European companies make the cars with Chinese labor and make and take the profits ... We couldn't even start to make that many cars domestically and the Chinese couldn't even start to afford them if we did .. so we compromise.. they get the jobs and the cars and we get the profits. That the tax code is hostile to repatriating those profits or the companies are just too greedy to bring the bucks home and pay the taxes, or some of both, is another issue that wouldn't exist at all except for the fact we found a way to sell cars the Chinese could afford.. It's either not be in that market at all or be in it in the way that makes money.

All this stuff is far more complicated than a bumper sticker, the fact that it is only discussed on bumper stickers and nobody wants to discuss the complexities, is why it is an emotional issue... the fact that nobody can tell me how we get the work done without the illegals or legalizing the illegals makes it an emotional issue that brooks no discussion of what we do if the dog catches the car.. that kind of emotional ... not the kind of emotional folks get when the left boob disagrees with their right boob. Does this blouse make my right boob look smarter than my left boob? ... You know, it kind of does... My Boxer's fur coat makes her butt look fat .. I keep telling her.. but she doesn't seem to care.

And NO, the government doesn't get paid to guard the border.. the tax payers and the elected representatives give the government a BUDGET to guard the border or do anything else. You get what you pay for..in fact you get way more than you pay for .. which is why the government ( AKA "We the People") are in debt up to our eyeballs ... Folks want the government services, folks want the border guarded, but they squeal like a litter of hungry piglets the minute you hand them the bill. You seen how they are proposing to pay for the wall.. they plan on cutting the Coast Guard, FEMA, and TSA and stuff like that http://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...-cuts-to-coast-guard-airport-security-to-fund

Somebody explain how that is going to make us safer?


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

AmmoSgt said:


> Didn't know you had boobs , I don't use my boobs for decision making , so I don't assume others do.. used emotional as a nice way to say pigheaded. What we are doing isn't working.. Business is being affected too much by government, while being too dependent on government at the same time.
> 
> Everybody talks a good game.. "not free trade, fair trade" .. but only with overseas stuff .. domestic stuff, the less than law-abiding hire illegals, hire under the table, and underbid the folks trying to do right by the regs and the workers .. nobody gets their business taken if they are playing fair and straight.. get the crooks out of the game and more business for the honest folks.
> 
> Do you want illegals or don't you? the way to stop them is to cut off why they are here, jobs. And yes, it is going to take higher wages to get Americans to be maids and stoop labor in the fields .. that is what it means when you say you do not want illegals .. and it is illegals , as much as because that is the only way they can be exploited like they are, is the fact they are undocumented ... It's like the jobs that China stole .. name the jobs that you want to see come back.. sewing blue jeans and making tennis shoes weren't prized jobs when they were here.. and prized employees weren't the ones doing the work.. it was almost generational down here momma sewed jeans and daughter was brought up knowing sewing jeans was going to be her life .. then electronic assembly was the same way .. assembly line electronics is what you did when you couldn't do anything else .. they sure as hell weren't " good paying jobs" they were paying jobs and they were manufacturing for as long as that contract lasted.. but folks weren't sad to see them go, if they are honest.. they got sad when nothing else came along to replace them except processing chicken and picking peaches , and then the illegals took that and only because nobody wanted that job at the pay offered or the fact it was seasonal or by the contract.. When I grow up I want a really cool job breaking plastic parts off the sprue when they come out of the mold.
> 
> Getting rid of the illegals is going to increase prices.. double on some things, but only because Americans will only do it for higher wages than illegals will do it. Legalize the illegals and you won't have to raise prices as much. Pay $15 minimum and you drastically cut the federal budget and start some down end completion for wages. pay $12 and legalize you spark competition and get most folks off assistance .. $ 12 and status and you get your pick of the talent on this continent.. make a legal job a requirement for a green card .. folks who can't get a legal job, or lose the one they have go home. Folks who hire illegals or under the table are running a illegal enterprise and should be shut down. Controlling the jobs is a bigger and better way of controlling immigration, legal and illegal, than trying to control the border with the picayune budget folks want to pay.
> 
> Not just fair trade with China .. Fair trade practices with your competition right here in the USA.
> 
> Folks need to quit romanticizing running a sock making machine as good paying manufacturing job or thinking picking blue berries is a desirable profession .. Those are the starter jobs ..
> 
> My eldest, when he finish his post grad and got a "real job" in his chosen field ... he put his self thru school doing warehouse work night shift... I paid off everything left over AFTER he graduated as a surprise graduation present. I asked him if the job came with any benefits ..( all he had talked about was the pay) he said "oh hellyeah comes with a chair, air conditioning in the summer and heat in the winter.. and some other stuff"...
> 
> Folks pretty much understand the kind of work Illegals do... it's stuff somebody has got to do ... about 40% of your fresh food/ fruits/ vegetables are hand picked .. those are going to double or worse , be hard to find, or even worse put US Farmers out of business because imports flown in on reefer 747's are cheaper. You will definitely be cutting up your own chicken and KFC is going to become a Sunday night occasional treat .. domestic labor is going to be over that $15 minimum .. just from fighting over the few left who will do it.. and you will have to settle for lower quality work or go without and clean your own house ... Hotels and restaurants are going to be more expensive... and construction? "Katy bar the door" and " grab a cold 'tater and wait yer turn" $15 doesn't get dry wall hung now, at least not here.
> 
> Letting personal feelings create a real problem, with no proposed fix at all, is what I meant by an emotional issue. throw the illegals out as if there would be no reasons or consequences not to. No reason to carefully craft policy so we could get the most upside and the least downside and not even talk about the cost of catching up 11 million people the detention the hearings the whole kit and caboodle .. it's going to cost big time .. "but we don't discuss the pros and cons, we just want them gone" that kind of emotional issue.
> 
> China hasn't stolen jobs .. it's the largest car market in the world .. US and European companies make the cars with Chinese labor and make and take the profits ... We couldn't even start to make that many cars domestically and the Chinese couldn't even start to afford them if we did .. so we compromise.. they get the jobs and the cars and we get the profits. That the tax code is hostile to repatriating those profits or the companies are just too greedy to bring the bucks home and pay the taxes, or some of both, is another issue that wouldn't exist at all except for the fact we found a way to sell cars the Chinese could afford.. It's either not be in that market at all or be in it in the way that makes money.
> 
> All this stuff is far more complicated than a bumper sticker, the fact that it is only discussed on bumper stickers and nobody wants to discuss the complexities, is why it is an emotional issue... the fact that nobody can tell me how we get the work done without the illegals or legalizing the illegals makes it an emotional issue that brooks no discussion of what we do if the dog catches the car.. that kind of emotional ... not the kind of emotional folks get when the left boob disagrees with their right boob. Does this blouse make my right boob look smarter than my left boob? ... You know, it kind of does... My Boxer's fur coat makes her butt look fat .. I keep telling her.. but she doesn't seem to care.
> 
> And NO, the government doesn't get paid to guard the border.. the tax payers and the elected representatives give the government a BUDGET to guard the border or do anything else. You get what you pay for..in fact you get way more than you pay for .. which is why the government ( AKA "We the People") are in debt up to our eyeballs ... Folks want the government services, folks want the border guarded, but they squeal like a litter of hungry piglets the minute you hand them the bill. You seen how they are proposing to pay for the wall.. they plan on cutting the Coast Guard, FEMA, and TSA and stuff like that http://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...-cuts-to-coast-guard-airport-security-to-fund
> 
> Somebody explain how that is going to make us safer?


A lot of this is a very valid point. I certainly agree with cutting off jobs for illegals by enforcement of hiring practices by American companies. Not having illegals to do some jobs will raise prices in some areas. I would like to see more and better use of the h2 visas for some of the jobs you mentioned like food production. Works well in other countries. I dont agree that we can raise the minimum wage and our government will reduce benefits to make up the difference. May happen in the short term but government only gets power by handing out free stuff so the benefits will return as soon as politicians need votes. I also dont think raising the minimum wage gets rid of illegal jobs. You'll just get higher paid illegals unless combined with the enforcement of hiring practices. Low skill jobs may not be glamorous or well paid but if government handouts were severely curtailed people would start taking jobs when they got hungry and hopefully improve themselves when they decide they want to spend their days doing something more satisfying. I agree we need to lower taxes on businesses bringing back foriegn profits. Gotta do stuff. Ill complete this thought later.

Edit.... well kinda lost my train of thought on this but you are right that this is a complicated issue with a lot of moving parts. I doubt we will ever see the type of reform that will allow for an ideal solution so at this point I'll take any step in the right direction. I do have to disagree with your points about the solution being granting amnesty to illegals (if thats not an oversimplification of your point),raising minimum wage as a way to reduce government benefits and the accompanying tax burden and let china keep the manufacturing jobs to keep prices down stateside. If those were your points and im understanding it correctly then I think there is a better way forward for us.


----------



## phideaux

AmmoSgt said:


> Didn't know you had boobs , I don't use my boobs for decision making , so I don't assume others do.. *used emotional as a nice way to say pigheaded.* What we are doing isn't working.. Business is being affected too much by government, while being too dependent on government at the same time.
> 
> ?


*Standard Rules and Guidelines for PreparedSociety* 
*Rule and guidelines for posting*

*Rules:*

- Swearing, flaming, slamming and spamming will not be tolerated. The system will automatically censor out certain swear words, allow the system to censor as required. Flaming and slamming use words that belittle other members. *Do not call other members (in general or specifically) idiots, names or call them down. *

*Just a reminder, please refrain from name calling.*

*Jim*


----------



## readytogo

hiwall said:


> Everything is wrong with this^^.
> Often times the American workers are forced to train these foreign workers and once they are trained and working at a much lower wage the US workers are then fired.
> And yes illegals ARE the problem also.


Illegals ARE a problem too ,well I don`t see to many legals working the farm field here in Miami nor in California ,according to the news legals don`t like to work the fields ,but I have heard that if they do ,they want $20 an hour for picking tomatoes, and in order to work here from overseas you most have the skills already ,60 minutes news show a report of many manufacturing jobs hiring with free training and nobody show up in the Midwest, illegals as you call them work in industries that nobody wants to work ,they do dirty jobs. In order to have food on our table upon arriving in this country we took whatever job we could do without any complains and very proud of it.
Jobs Americans Won't Do?
https://www.numbersusa.org/pages/jobs-americans-wont-do
The Migrant/Seasonal Farmworker
http://www.migrantclinician.org/issues/migrant-info/migrant.html
And there is more.


----------



## AmmoSgt

CrackbottomLouis said:


> A lot of this is a very valid point. I certainly agree with cutting off jobs for illegals by enforcement of hiring practices by American companies. Not having illegals to do some jobs will raise prices in some areas. I would like to see more and better use of the h2 visas for some of the jobs you mentioned like food production. Works well in other countries. I dont agree that we can raise the minimum wage and our government will reduce benefits to make up the difference. May happen in the short term but government only gets power by handing out free stuff so the benefits will return as soon as politicians need votes. I also dont think raising the minimum wage gets rid of illegal jobs. You'll just get higher paid illegals unless combined with the enforcement of hiring practices. Low skill jobs may not be glamorous or well paid but if government handouts were severely curtailed people would start taking jobs when they got hungry and hopefully improve themselves when they decide they want to spend their days doing something more satisfying. I agree we need to lower taxes on businesses bringing back foriegn profits. Gotta do stuff. Ill complete this thought later.
> 
> Edit.... well kinda lost my train of thought on this but you are right that this is a complicated issue with a lot of moving parts. I doubt we will ever see the type of reform that will allow for an ideal solution so at this point I'll take any step in the right direction. I do have to disagree with your points about the solution being granting amnesty to illegals (if thats not an oversimplification of your point),raising minimum wage as a way to reduce government benefits and the accompanying tax burden and let china keep the manufacturing jobs to keep prices down stateside. If those were your points and im understanding it correctly then I think there is a better way forward for us.


never said grant amnesty , but then we would have to agree on what amnesty meant.. Certainly not granting citizenship .. and also not a free green card .. as a minimum having a job.. Hispanics right now are starting more small businesses and creating more new jobs than anybody else ( in some sense.. it's a headline type comment with less stats behind it then I like.. but by any metric a significant thing)

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/0...e-than-twice-as-fast-as-national-average.html

http://lban.us/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Final-Report-.pdf

we already have several paths to citizenship, live here a certain number of years, serve in the military.. same for everybody.. nothing special only what any immigrant would get.. but for illegals some penalty.. a couple /several thousand dollar fine we already have something like that on the books for some visas and we already have provision for folks either investing significant money or starting a business of a certain size or similar

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...53fb9f2fcb4_story.html?utm_term=.62dbf4aef8f5

something like sponsorship should be available. I'm against sanctuary cites in some ways .. but the principle behind a transactional immunity for reporting crimes or being a witness I think is sound and a good police practice. If a church or a business or a farmer wants to bet the farm with private money, pay the fees, guarantee any fines for misbehavior, basically take responsibility that they don't become a liability.. should be a possibility in some form... not cities where it would involve tax dollars anyway my thoughts tend long those lines .. and legally enter or already be here .. but that legal entry has to actually available and rather than just a fixed number more a merit evaluation.. how much can they contribute.. anybody here on a visa for college should get a look as somebody we want to allow to stay .

We know what kind of jobs we have a shortage of workers for Nurses for example truck drivers. If they have skill of which we already have enough, just having that skill should not count in their favor, If it means they can support themselves it shouldn't count against them either tricky area.

Never said we should keep jobs overseas just to make junk and stuff cheaper here .. but I also think we should be selective and bring back the best jobs that we have workers for..
Immigrants legal or illegal are not actually part of the jobs shortages problem in any big way.. that is much more about technology going obsolescent and automation doing it cheaper ( it is also the best argument against the $15 per hour minimum ) and that is going to increasingly become major issue even with we seal all the borders with force fields that incinerate anybody crossing into the US .. conflating the technology / automation issue with immigration ( aside from the silicon valley H1B thing maybe) is just giving society a smoke screen to not work on it, or have to admit we really don't have a clue on the fix for that and it is coming at us much faster than anybody cares to admit.

We have an amazing social media, if folks who want a US made filpplygidget instead of one made in Outer Mongolia .. anybody can start a facebook page and do the market research on the demand for domestically made flippygidgets and a price point and work it into a business proposal for the VC's and banks and go for funding or a gofund me page

I can see spending some tax dollars to educate consumers on the merits on "Made in America" and the jobs and spinoff jobs that come with it... I don't see any big advantage of just trying to make stuff here at price points nobody wants, just to make work You want good paying jobs you do something big like going to the moon in the 60's and what NASA is doing now that almost nobody seems to be aware of in any big way. NASA took and spent tax dollars for years developing whole new set of technologies and have created a whole new industry and is now paying it back in spades getting a whole private enterprise space industry started that most folks can't even figure out how they could make a profit from, while they enjoying ever faster internet and watch cable TV and make essentially free long distance phone calls for next to nothing

seriously check out this link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_private_spaceflight_companies

and actually there Is more going on than listed and it feeds on itself

Pure speculative research has a great track record of paying the tax payer back, as does investments in crazy schemes that seem just plain impossible at first look, like the transcontinental railroad even, with massive fraud and scandal that went with it. I think the automation /AI/ technology against current jobs solution lays in that direction, personally, I could be wrong, but I like the odds.

you want to bring back T-shirt silk screening jobs.. you don't need to make any new laws .. you can start your own company anytime.. you just need some novel artwork or designs that will sell .. you can do the work yourself.. hire folks... or farm it out .. all depends on how much of a living you want for how much and what kind of work you want to do .


----------



## tmttactical

readytogo said:


> Illegals ARE a problem too ,well I don`t see to many legals working the farm field here in Miami nor in California ,according to the news legals don`t like to work the fields ,but I have heard that if they do ,they want $20 an hour for picking tomatoes, and in order to work here from overseas you most have the skills already ,60 minutes news show a report of many manufacturing jobs hiring with free training and nobody show up in the Midwest, illegals as you call them work in industries that nobody wants to work ,they do dirty jobs. In order to have food on our table upon arriving in this country we took whatever job we could do without any complains and very proud of it.
> Jobs Americans Won't Do?
> https://www.numbersusa.org/pages/jobs-americans-wont-do
> The Migrant/Seasonal Farmworker
> http://www.migrantclinician.org/issues/migrant-info/migrant.html
> And there is more.


I discovered an illegal working at one of the departments I supervised. I terminated the illegal (fired - not executed) and had over 100 applicants for the vacant position. The position was for a Facility Maintenance person and paid over $20.00 per hour, plus very good benefits. So yes some do work at jobs that are undesirable but many others also work at good paying jobs. The answer is for the welfare department to send able bodied people to these vacant undesirable jobs and if the person refused to go or refuses the job, then they are removed from welfare. To proud to work or too lazy = not hungry enough. JMHO


----------



## Caribou

AmmoSgt said:


> something like sponsorship should be available. I'm against sanctuary cites in some ways .. but the principle behind a transactional immunity for reporting crimes or being a witness I think is sound and a good police practice. If a church or a business or a farmer wants to bet the farm with private money, pay the fees, guarantee any fines for misbehavior, basically take responsibility that they don't become a liability.. should be a possibility in some form... not cities where it would involve tax dollars anyway my thoughts tend long those lines .. and legally enter or already be here .. but that legal entry has to actually available and rather than just a fixed number more a merit evaluation.. how much can they contribute.. anybody here on a visa for college should get a look as somebody we want to allow to stay .
> 
> .


Sponsorship is available. I suggested to you on a previous post that if you were willing to guarantee that these people would not become a burden on society then you could bring in as many as you wished. This means that if they get sick that you make sure their medical is paid. You assure that the family has a decent home and food on the table. You need to be responsible that they find work, that the kids are educated and if they commit any crime that you pay restitution.

You decided to twist my post around and claim that because you had served in the military that you had somehow taken on the financial responsibility for a foreign national. When you are willing to do that let me know. Telling me that my taxes should support people that are here criminally doesn't hold water or earn my respect.


----------



## AmmoSgt

Caribou said:


> Sponsorship is available. I suggested to you on a previous post that if you were willing to guarantee that these people would not become a burden on society then you could bring in as many as you wished. This means that if they get sick that you make sure their medical is paid. You assure that the family has a decent home and food on the table. You need to be responsible that they find work, that the kids are educated and if they commit any crime that you pay restitution.
> 
> You decided to twist my post around and claim that because you had served in the military that you had somehow taken on the financial responsibility for a foreign national. When you are willing to do that let me know. Telling me that my taxes should support people that are here criminally doesn't hold water or earn my respect.


I don't think sponsorship is a formal thing for immigrants.. that is more for refugees ... I don't recall saying my service somehow substitutes for sponsorship, but If you have the quote I'll be happy to clarify what I was saying. On just what you posted I can't imagine a logical argument to support it.. Any chance it was their service as translators and interrogators and the American Military lives they have saved that I was saying earned them special consideration? I assume you are speaking figuratively when you say you don't care how many so long as the sponsor can support them, or at least be sure they do not become a tax payer liability .. I support more of a pick and choose based on talents, skills, actual need, and merit .. not an unlimited number under any circumstances ... basically the Benefit has to be mutual, The US gets something of value for the bettering of their situation by them living here at the basic level.. and we all benefit with their appreciation and love of what this country , on it's better days. Tries to stand for. hopefully something we all support.

However on a dollar basis , which seems important to you.. it costs less to let them in and make a buck off of them than to spend billions to keep them out for which we get nothing in return. Which happens to be why we have the problem of illegal immigration as it is.. they come for the jobs and folks are happy to hire them and make more off them under the table than they do hiring legal workers that they have to pay legal wages and a portion of the earnings deductions like social security unemployment insurance etc. If folks weren't making a buck off them, and consumers weren't saving buck off them, and if they were actually costing us money, I'm pretty sure we would be trying harder to stop them and to catch and deport the ones that get here. And that would make sense.. massive deportation with no reform is going to cost a ton and knock a couple percent off our GDP.. you can't take an estimated 11 million out of the work force without expecting some significant economic loss across the board. And in this case, assuming you can even find 11 million replacement workers , it will cost more, further hurting the economy and reducing or erasing profits. The simple fact is, regardless of where you get your workers .. you do not come out ahead replacing workers that want to work with workers that didn't want to work in the first place.

Farmer in Alabama and Georgia are already worrying about bringing in the crop, we went thru this a few years back http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/01/20/farmers-brace-for-changes-under-tough-immigration-laws.html and know the effect it can have 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...a3817ac21a5_story.html?utm_term=.e251e5b8797c

http://www.agweb.com/article/farm-labor-uneasy-amid-trump-immigration-crackdown-blmg/

http://www.metrotimes.com/detroit/h...rew-michigans-food-system/Content?oid=2625717

Nothing I am advocating requires payment of your taxes to anybody.. with the exception of perhaps an education for the kids many of which are US citizens .. which as I have clearly stated I believe gets paid back a couple times over in taxes down the road. In fact one of the arguments for legalization is saving the social security system

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/11/29/how-immigrants-will-save-social-security.html

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/09/undocumented-immigrants-and-taxes/499604/

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/b...ering-social-security-with-billions.html?_r=0

the counter argument

http://www.capsweb.org/blog/illegal-and-legal-immigrants-won’t-save-social-security

Haven't studied this aspect in any detail but since it helps the worker to retire ratio..i tend to think it is more likely a plus


----------



## Caribou

AmmoSgt said:


> I don't think sponsorship is a formal thing for immigrants.. that is more for refugees ...


You are wrong. If you want to sponsor an immigrant then do it. If the immigrant that you want is a refugee that is fine by me. If you think that some highly trained individual deserves a chance to become an American then step forward. Just don't offer my money and that of my neighbors.

First you will have to hire an attorney. Then you will have to prove that you have the wherewithal. Then once all the papers are filed and approved and your wards are here the work begins. It is not just money but your time that will be required. No bureaucrat to come by and make sure everything is fine and write a check to fix anything.

Not many people avail themselves of the program and the few that do don't brag about it. They do it because it is the right thing to do.

You talk as if these people that broke the law to get here are honest law abiding citizens. Over a quarter of the people in prison are illegal aliens. They are not in prison for jay walking. Murder, rape, and armed robbery just start the list. Many draw welfare and declare children in Mexico, or elsewhere, to get more money. Fraudulent tax returns is another scheme.

There are really fine people that came here illegally. I know, I've met them but I will have nothing to do with a continuing crime.


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

AmmoSgt said:


> I don't think sponsorship is a formal thing for immigrants.. that is more for refugees ... I don't recall saying my service somehow substitutes for sponsorship, but If you have the quote I'll be happy to clarify what I was saying. On just what you posted I can't imagine a logical argument to support it.. Any chance it was their service as translators and interrogators and the American Military lives they have saved that I was saying earned them special consideration? I assume you are speaking figuratively when you say you don't care how many so long as the sponsor can support them, or at least be sure they do not become a tax payer liability .. I support more of a pick and choose based on talents, skills, actual need, and merit .. not an unlimited number under any circumstances ... basically the Benefit has to be mutual, The US gets something of value for the bettering of their situation by them living here at the basic level.. and we all benefit with their appreciation and love of what this country , on it's better days. Tries to stand for. hopefully something we all support.
> 
> However on a dollar basis , which seems important to you.. it costs less to let them in and make a buck off of them than to spend billions to keep them out for which we get nothing in return. Which happens to be why we have the problem of illegal immigration as it is.. they come for the jobs and folks are happy to hire them and make more off them under the table than they do hiring legal workers that they have to pay legal wages and a portion of the earnings deductions like social security unemployment insurance etc. If folks weren't making a buck off them, and consumers weren't saving buck off them, and if they were actually costing us money, I'm pretty sure we would be trying harder to stop them and to catch and deport the ones that get here. And that would make sense.. massive deportation with no reform is going to cost a ton and knock a couple percent off our GDP.. you can't take an estimated 11 million out of the work force without expecting some significant economic loss across the board. And in this case, assuming you can even find 11 million replacement workers , it will cost more, further hurting the economy and reducing or erasing profits. The simple fact is, regardless of where you get your workers .. you do not come out ahead replacing workers that want to work with workers that didn't want to work in the first place.
> 
> Farmer in Alabama and Georgia are already worrying about bringing in the crop, we went thru this a few years back http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/01/20/farmers-brace-for-changes-under-tough-immigration-laws.html and know the effect it can have
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...a3817ac21a5_story.html?utm_term=.e251e5b8797c
> 
> http://www.agweb.com/article/farm-labor-uneasy-amid-trump-immigration-crackdown-blmg/
> 
> http://www.metrotimes.com/detroit/h...rew-michigans-food-system/Content?oid=2625717
> 
> Nothing I am advocating requires payment of your taxes to anybody.. with the exception of perhaps an education for the kids many of which are US citizens .. which as I have clearly stated I believe gets paid back a couple times over in taxes down the road. In fact one of the arguments for legalization is saving the social security system
> 
> http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/11/29/how-immigrants-will-save-social-security.html
> 
> https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/09/undocumented-immigrants-and-taxes/499604/
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/b...ering-social-security-with-billions.html?_r=0
> 
> the counter argument
> 
> http://www.capsweb.org/blog/illegal-and-legal-immigrants-won’t-save-social-security
> 
> Haven't studied this aspect in any detail but since it helps the worker to retire ratio..i tend to think it is more likely a plus


You have mentioned the absolute necessity of illegal aliens for farming several times. Is there some reason you dont think expansion of the h2 visa program wont work to fill that need?


----------



## AmmoSgt

Caribou said:


> You are wrong. If you want to sponsor an immigrant then do it. If the immigrant that you want is a refugee that is fine by me. If you think that some highly trained individual deserves a chance to become an American then step forward. Just don't offer my money and that of my neighbors.
> 
> First you will have to hire an attorney. Then you will have to prove that you have the wherewithal. Then once all the papers are filed and approved and your wards are here the work begins. It is not just money but your time that will be required. No bureaucrat to come by and make sure everything is fine and write a check to fix anything.
> 
> Not many people avail themselves of the program and the few that do don't brag about it. They do it because it is the right thing to do.
> 
> You talk as if these people that broke the law to get here are honest law abiding citizens. Over a quarter of the people in prison are illegal aliens. They are not in prison for jay walking. Murder, rape, and armed robbery just start the list. Many draw welfare and declare children in Mexico, or elsewhere, to get more money. Fraudulent tax returns is another scheme.
> 
> There are really fine people that came here illegally. I know, I've met them but I will have nothing to do with a continuing crime.


It looks like you pretty much have to be related some way https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/green-card-processes-and-procedures/affidavit-support to be a sponsor.

But I'm trying to talk 1) national policy and 2) the pros and cons both.

Throwing everybody out without regard to the consequences makes no more sense than just letting everybody in without regard to the consequences.

First is the cost http://www.newsweek.com/how-much-would-it-cost-deport-all-undocumented-immigrants-364316 estimate is just over $10,000 per for a total between 400 and 600 Billion dollars.

Number here now and where http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/03/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/

Does it cost us? https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/29/...t-does-immigration-actually-cost-us.html?_r=0

And how much ? found this http://www.heritage.org/immigration...lawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer... long big humongous report fully of nerdy numbers .. many NOT In my favor and some that are.. if not on illegals on the benefits of education ... haven't read the whole thing .. my day has started so I will have to expand on this more later.


----------



## LastOutlaw

CrackbottomLouis said:


> You have mentioned the absolute necessity of illegal aliens for farming several times. Is there some reason you dont think expansion of the h2 visa program wont work to fill that need?


How about this:
If you want to come to this country...do it LEGALLY. If you want to work here temporarily apply through the proper channels and do it LEGALLY. If you want to stay here permanently, apply through the proper channels and do that LEGALLY!

If you are here and are not supposed to be (ILL-LEGALLY) then you better leave because you are breaking the law and will be arrested.

All of the issues that have been brought up can be cured by following the law. A lot of other issues as well.

If you aren't happy with the law in this country you (AS A U.S. CITIZEN) should call your representative and state your case. That is your right as a U.S. CITIZEN. If you are not a citizen you DO NOT HAVE U.S. CITIZEN RIGHTS. Call your consulate.

This works just fine in many many countries.

Oh yeah... one more thing. If your mom or dad brought you here illegally and you have been raised here illegally bitch to them about it not the U.S. Government about your problem.


----------



## Caribou

AmmoSgt said:


> It looks like you pretty much have to be related some way to be a sponsor.
> 
> .


Certainly it is far more common for a family member to be the sponsor. There may be some recent changes in the law or you may have stopped looking before you found the right spot in a large volume of law. If you are seriously considering being a sponsor then find a good attorney.


----------



## tmttactical

*Rant on!!!*

Okay, here goes. We do not need to pay to deport non- criminal illegal aliens, they will move out as soon as we create and /or enforce the following laws. E-verify for employment, rentals (homes. apartment. condo / townhouse. etc.) driver license, school registration, bank accounts, EIN (IRS tax identity number) vehicle license plate tags / registration, any form of government (federal / state) assistance. Every entity that fails to comply, be it a state / federal / or person, would be subject to a massive fine and mandatory jail time. One warning for the unaware and then prosecute. Photo identification should be required with the E-verify request. As soon as companies and individuals discover it is not profitable to employ or rent to illegal aliens, the they will stop. No apartment manager or business person is going to risk jail time to save a buck. The use or possession of false identity documents would also constitute mandatory jail time.

Once the illegal aliens discover they can't work, get housing, drive a vehicle, get free education or collect from any government assistance programs, then they will self deport. Arrested Illegal alien's assets would also be seized to pay for cost to process and ship them home. If an Illegal alien is caught, then they would be forever banned and could not ever legally re-enter the USA. Re-entry into the USA would be mandatory jail time and deportation. Illegal Alien parents, of children legally in the USA, would have to decide to leave with their children (before being caught) or know that they would be forever banned from joining their children in the USA.

The USA cannot afford to allow any additional refugee's or immigrants (legal or otherwise) into our country. If we don't have the educated / trained skilled citizens, then kick the education system in the butt. If people refuse to work at unskilled or low paying jobs, fine but no government assistance. Th USA is not responsible for other peoples / governments problems. Economics change as technology advances. Our citizens will have more problems than the government can afford to pay for or to fix. We cannot afford to continue being the World Savior, it is just not financially feasible. Think of all the jobs already lost to improvements in technology. Examples: 1) When was the last time you saw an elevator operator. 2) Needed a camera film developed, required a telephone operator's assistance (some still exist in a limited capacity), required a doormen (Okay, not PC correct) to open a store's door, and certainly not least on my list is the taxi drivers being planned into obsolescence. Think about the current jobs illegal or even legal immigrants currently fill and what jobs are going to be available in the future. What jobs are non-skilled citizens going to have available? As unskilled jobs become limited, countries (out own included) will not be able to support their own citizens. Articles are already being written and countries are talking about a "FREE LIVING INCOME" to be given to everybody, no employment or qualifications required. The immigration / refugee's issue is not an ethical or social question but a financial question, do we need them and can we afford them and the answer in NO! vract: Okay, rant off.


----------



## readytogo

tmttactical,I totally agree with you ,our welfare system is a joke ,able body persons collecting while jobs are been offer all over the nation ,and the system keeps paying vs making this people look for a job or else ,is no wonder many hired the illegals at a cost if caught by the authorities  ,all around is a big problem ,many want to work and others want to stay home and collect at the government`s blessing.


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

tmttactical said:


> Okay, here goes. We do not need to pay to deport non- criminal illegal aliens, they will move out as soon as we create and /or enforce the following laws. E-verify for employment, rentals (homes. apartment. condo / townhouse. etc.) driver license, school registration, bank accounts, EIN (IRS tax identity number) vehicle license plate tags / registration, any form of government (federal / state) assistance. Every entity that fails to comply, be it a state / federal / or person, would be subject to a massive fine and mandatory jail time. One warning for the unaware and then prosecute. Photo identification should be required with the E-verify request. As soon as companies and individuals discover it is not profitable to employ or rent to illegal aliens, the they will stop. No apartment manager or business person is going to risk jail time to save a buck. The use or possession of false identity documents would also constitute mandatory jail time.
> 
> Once the illegal aliens discover they can't work, get housing, drive a vehicle, get free education or collect from any government assistance programs, then they will self deport. Arrested Illegal alien's assets would also be seized to pay for cost to process and ship them home. If an Illegal alien is caught, then they would be forever banned and could not ever legally re-enter the USA. Re-entry into the USA would be mandatory jail time and deportation. Illegal Alien parents, of children legally in the USA, would have to decide to leave with their children (before being caught) or know that they would be forever banned from joining their children in the USA.
> 
> The USA cannot afford to allow any additional refugee's or immigrants (legal or otherwise) into our country. If we don't have the educated / trained skilled citizens, then kick the education system in the butt. If people refuse to work at unskilled or low paying jobs, fine but no government assistance. Th USA is not responsible for other peoples / governments problems. Economics change as technology advances. Our citizens will have more problems than the government can afford to pay for or to fix. We cannot afford to continue being the World Savior, it is just not financially feasible. Think of all the jobs already lost to improvements in technology. Examples: 1) When was the last time you saw an elevator operator. 2) Needed a camera film developed, required a telephone operator's assistance (some still exist in a limited capacity), required a doormen (Okay, not PC correct) to open a store's door, and certainly not least on my list is the taxi drivers being planned into obsolescence. Think about the current jobs illegal or even legal immigrants currently fill and what jobs are going to be available in the future. What jobs are non-skilled citizens going to have available? As unskilled jobs become limited, countries (out own included) will not be able to support their own citizens. Articles are already being written and countries are talking about a "FREE LIVING INCOME" to be given to everybody, no employment or qualifications required. The immigration / refugee's issue is not an ethical or social question but a financial question, do we need them and can we afford them and the answer in NO! vract: Okay, rant off.


I agree with all of this except not needing legal immigrants. We should encourage legal immigration of skilled and educated individuals.


----------



## terri9630

Even the "unskilled" agricultural jobs are going to be disappearing in the future. Tractors are coming out that don't need or have a seat for a driver. They work by gps and plow/plant/harvest by them selves.


----------



## tmttactical

CrackbottomLouis said:


> I agree with all of this except not needing legal immigrants. We should encourage legal immigration of skilled and educated individuals.


CBL, I am going to respectively disagree with you. We should not encourage any immigration but make our education system number 1 in the world. Making provisions to allow entry by skilled / educated individuals, simply allows educators off the hook. If companies do not have adequate skilled / educated Americans to select from and they cannot get foreign labor, then the companies will start to pressure colleges and universities to provide the training required. As long as companies can bring in lower paid skilled /educated people, the companies have little or no reason to push for better education of Americans. The colleges and universities want to push social and liberal agendas, not hard core skills. They don't want right wing capitalist faculty staff members. I have witnessed the difference between our education requirements (dumbing down) verses other countries educational requirements (quality and demanding). We cannot survive as a county unless we can develop and maintain a superior educational system. The AGE of Industry has passed and we are in the AGE OF INFORMATION, which is actually the AGE OF TECHNOLOGY. We will need every job to be filled by an American citizen because there are going to be fewer humans needed for the future work force. JMHO


----------



## Caribou

Malkin just published an article on LevinTV, or whatever they are calling it now. She discusses the H-1B visas and how four out of five students graduating with an IT degree can't find a job while at the same time we are bringing in lower paid IT workers from India. Other nations also but India is the worst and interestingly the job placement is sourced out to an Indian company.

Long time IT workers are being laid off and in order to get their severance pay they need to train their replacements. Their replacements have H-1B visas. You need a subscription to watch so posting it here is not an option.


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

tmttactical said:


> CBL, I am going to respectively disagree with you. We should not encourage any immigration but make our education system number 1 in the world. Making provisions to allow entry by skilled / educated individuals, simply allows educators off the hook. If companies do not have adequate skilled / educated Americans to select from and they cannot get foreign labor, then the companies will start to pressure colleges and universities to provide the training required. As long as companies can bring in lower paid skilled /educated people, the companies have little or no reason to push for better education of Americans. The colleges and universities want to push social and liberal agendas, not hard core skills. They don't want right wing capitalist faculty staff members. I have witnessed the difference between our education requirements (dumbing down) verses other countries educational requirements (quality and demanding). We cannot survive as a county unless we can develop and maintain a superior educational system. The AGE of Industry has passed and we are in the AGE OF INFORMATION, which is actually the AGE OF TECHNOLOGY. We will need every job to be filled by an American citizen because there are going to be fewer humans needed for the future work force. JMHO


I certainly understand your point about the need to revamp our educational system. Its a mess and we need to do something. However, I like that America is a mecca for talented, bright, educated, hardworking folks. We do nothing but gain by letting those types of individuals into the country. We are a nation of immigrants. Always have been. Nothing wrong with that at all if its done according to our laws. When a corporation wants to succeed they hire the best of the best and couple that with great in house training for employees. When a nation wants to succeed we do the same thing. Not all the best minds in the world are born right here in the US. The world is a big place and is full of smart innovative individuals. We should make it in their best interest to come here and succeed. We all win when that happens.


----------



## JayJay

terri9630 said:


> Even the "unskilled" agricultural jobs are going to be disappearing in the future. Tractors are coming out that don't need or have a seat for a driver. They work by gps and plow/plant/harvest by them selves.


Just great!! Until the nerds begin hacking those.


----------



## tmttactical

CrackbottomLouis said:


> I certainly understand your point about the need to revamp our educational system. Its a mess and we need to do something. However, I like that America is a mecca for talented, bright, educated, hardworking folks. We do nothing but gain by letting those types of individuals into the country. We are a nation of immigrants. Always have been. Nothing wrong with that at all if its done according to our laws. When a corporation wants to succeed they hire the best of the best and couple that with great in house training for employees. When a nation wants to succeed we do the same thing. Not all the best minds in the world are born right here in the US. The world is a big place and is full of smart innovative individuals. We should make it in their best interest to come here and succeed. We all win when that happens.


CBL, I certainly agree regarding great minds in other countries, where I disagree with you is your statement regarding companies wanting to hire the best. Most companies hire the from the cheapest wage source. Companies will outsource for the lowest wage possible. That is the nature of business and I don't fault them. The issue is do we, as a nation, provide the employees or does another country provide them. It breaks down to supply and demand. If we have the talent here, then no immigration is required. If we don't have the talent (skilled people) here, then we need to make it difficult and as expensive as possible to hire foreign talent. Once again forcing educators to actually teach skills needed in the future. Yes we are all immigrants and during the Agricultural and Industrial AGE economies, we needed and wanted immigrates. Those time are past and now we need to educate and train for the future job markets. I am not concerned for my generation or even my children's generation, I am worried for my grand children's generation. Colleges and Universities want and need money from the business world. When the supply cannot be obtained form cheap foreign labor, then and only then, will business force institutions of higher learning to provide the qualified employees needed. A demand for qualified American labor will create new opportunities for private institutions to teach the required skills.Then the need to compete will force public educational institutions to start to train the people. During my high school days (a long time ago) trade school / shop classes were available, many local colleges also offered these courses, now it is almost impossible to find a school offering them. It all breaks down to cost, it is cheaper to teach Liberal Arts vs. Air Conditioning. When companies can get cheap labor, they are going to hire cheap labor. As an American, I refuse to believe we can't provide all the future talent needed. Yes, we don't have an exclusive market on intelligence but we are not forcing companies (by removing HB1 visas) to utilize our talent. In the information age, we are not isolated from foreign knowledge, we do not have a need for immigrates to obtain or utilize new information.

You stated companies will pay for the needed talent but in my view, a person does not have to immigrate for a company to hire them. Modern communication allow for easy transfer of information, it is just not convenient to business. I can't think of a single business need that requires a person to immigrate to this country. The only exception would be a military security situation, that would need top security classifications.

I really appreciate your input and if I am missing a valid point for needing immigration, please inform me. I do not base my opinion on ethical or social concerns but only on the financial aspects of needing immigration. I do not see any need to diversify our country as the new generation of immigrants seem to feel they don't have to adapt to America but expect America to adapt to their culture. JMHO


----------



## drfacefixer

tmttactical said:


> CBL, I certainly agree regarding great minds in other countries, where I disagree with you is your statement regarding companies wanting to hire the best. Most companies hire the from the cheapest wage source. Companies will outsource for the lowest wage possible. That is the nature of business and I don't fault them. The issue is do we, as a nation, provide the employees or does another country provide them. It breaks down to supply and demand. If we have the talent here, then no immigration is required. If we don't have the talent (skilled people) here, then we need to make it difficult and as expensive as possible to hire foreign talent. Once again forcing educators to actually teach skills needed in the future. Yes we are all immigrants and during the Agricultural and Industrial AGE economies, we needed and wanted immigrates. Those time are past and now we need to educate and train for the future job markets. I am not concerned for my generation or even my children's generation, I am worried for my grand children's generation. Colleges and Universities want and need money from the business world. When the supply cannot be obtained form cheap foreign labor, then and only then, will business force institutions of higher learning to provide the qualified employees needed. A demand for qualified American labor will create new opportunities for private institutions to teach the required skills.Then the need to compete will force public educational institutions to start to train the people. During my high school days (a long time ago) trade school / shop classes were available, many local colleges also offered these courses, now it is almost impossible to find a school offering them. It all breaks down to cost, it is cheaper to teach Liberal Arts vs. Air Conditioning. When companies can get cheap labor, they are going to hire cheap labor. As an American, I refuse to believe we can't provide all the future talent needed. Yes, we don't have an exclusive market on intelligence but we are not forcing companies (by removing HB1 visas) to utilize our talent. In the information age, we are not isolated from foreign knowledge, we do not have a need for immigrates to obtain or utilize new information.
> 
> You stated companies will pay for the needed talent but in my view, a person does not have to immigrate for a company to hire them. Modern communication allow for easy transfer of information, it is just not convenient to business. I can't think of a single business need that requires a person to immigrate to this country. The only exception would be a military security situation, that would need top security classifications.
> 
> I really appreciate your input and if I am missing a valid point for needing immigration, please inform me. I do not base my opinion on ethical or social concerns but only on the financial aspects of needing immigration. I do not see any need to diversify our country as the new generation of immigrants seem to feel they don't have to adapt to America but expect America to adapt to their culture. JMHO


CBL and Tmtactical you there is validity in both your statements. They are two sides of the same coin. As CBL stated, our Universities are a driving factor for foreign born talent. They come here, they work their butt off and the succeed. They stay on with visas or permanent status and they move with the job market. I've worked in research labs with foreign grad students and they will go 24/7. They traveled half way around the world for the experience. They are going to take full advantage of It. I, on the other hand, wanted to see family, date, hang out with friends....do the same thing I did growing up here. I wasn't nearly as productive as I could have been, but I also had a life greater than just my lab work. They had many factors that primarily pushed them to focus of their work rather than distract from it. It's almost like some non social fields have a built in hometown disadvantage.

Tmtactical is correct in saying that being on the receiving end of the "brain drain" is hurting US talent but for a different reason. You're supporting the argument with loss of trade schools which isn't the skilled talent HB1 visas are providing. Thats a different argument of a 4 yr degree vs skilled trade schools. But there are a lot of trained and capable talent in the US that have lost mainly IT jobs to foreign markets such as India and you are correct that its cost vs talent in most of these cases. NPR had two great stories on it recently.

http://www.npr.org/sections/alltech...H1-B-Visa-Workers-Its-Not-Who-You-Might-Think

The first one mainly reports on how the visa has been used over the past decade. Initially when a CEO took over, IT was quietly outsourced slowly to remote IT in India. The local IT said it was going to bite them in the ass when things broke and you needed local help on site. Now IT is the known low hanging fruit and the IT dept can be replaced locally by bringing foreign work to US soil for less money because they are willing to relocate and their standard of living here at a lower wage is better than their life in India. The CEOs justify this as thier primary job is increasing the return on investment. If they are paying Americans too much, so be it. Their obligation isn't to provide American jobs, its to grow a company as they see fit for those that invest in it. America benefits from the job providing revenue towards the American economy. Jobs are just icing on the cake.

http://www.npr.org/2017/03/06/51874...are-foreign-tech-workers-hired-over-americans

The second article debates that foreign workers are only taking jobs in some markets while others still go unfilled - thus the need for the visas. New England has historically seen a shortage hurting potential industry growth while California has layoffs. The issue here is that as Americans sometimes we want to have our cake and eat it too. Where as other people in the world are willing to trade their cake for the potential to make more cakes later.

I just recently gave a talk to a high school premed club and my biggest word of advice is cast your net as far as you are comfortable. The smart people that I knew that didn't get into their chosen profession primarily had one thing in common. They had factors that kept them from moving towards the opportunity or goa and almost always it was the unwillingness to relocate. Sometimes it was family, sometimes in was social reasons or fear of the unknown.

So there are two sides to the visa situation and its not really a lack of training on our part on a national level - maybe there are some weak areas regional. We have strong ties to the land that we love and sometimes the job market doesn't feel the same. Its definitely a complicated matter entangled in immigration and economics. On the flipside, New Zealand is hurting for skilled coders and will pay top dollar to relocate American Coders if you want to go live in a tropical paradise.


----------



## Meerkat

Caribou said:


> Malkin just published an article on LevinTV, or whatever they are calling it now. She discusses the H-1B visas and how four out of five students graduating with an IT degree can't find a job while at the same time we are bringing in lower paid IT workers from India. Other nations also but India is the worst and interestingly the job placement is sourced out to an Indian company.
> 
> Long time IT workers are being laid off and in order to get their severance pay they need to train their replacements. Their replacements have H-1B visas. You need a subscription to watch so posting it here is not an option.


 So right on this one. Indians from India are my favorite immigrants. They are great people on the most part. But we do hire far too many Indians in high tech jobs. And the medical industry is also full of Indians.

The pictures of medical staff on the hospital walls looks like it should be in India. I don't like it at all but an India Dr. saved my life in 1985. The other doc left me on the gurney to die because m insurance had lapsed, and this Dr.Pyesena 'spl' took over. They called in preacher for my last rights in a coma for 12 days. Galstone caused Pancreatitis in deadly. Dr Goldstone would not treat my Gallstone.


----------



## Caribou

Meerkat said:


> So right on this one. Indians from India are my favorite immigrants. They are great people on the most part. But we do hire far too many Indians in high tech jobs. And the medical industry is also full of Indians.
> 
> The pictures of medical staff on the hospital walls looks like it should be in India. I don't like it at all but an India Dr. saved my life in 1985. The other doc left me on the gurney to die because m insurance had lapsed, and this Dr.Pyesena 'spl' took over. They called in preacher for my last rights in a coma for 12 days. Galstone caused Pancreatitis in deadly. Dr Goldstone would not treat my Gallstone.


I am so glad that you found the right doctor at that important time of your life.

The issue is not doctors. My guess is that there is a shortage of doctors and nurses. Was this doctor here on an H-1B visa, a student visa, or a green card? It doesn't really matter.

The issue is hiring tech positions when we have adequate personnel available. H-1B's are suppose to be for exceptional cases and for a short period of time there the appropriately trained person is not available. H-1B visas are only good for three years but at the end of three years they are regularly renewed.

Businesses are letting their long time staff go and hiring H-1B's to replace them. They are requiring them to train their replacements. Colleges are doing the same. I refuse to believe that colleges can't train their own IT department, or that people with 10+ years of excellent reviews are suddenly incompetent.

Other, smaller, businesses are looking to headhunters to fill their positions. When these headhunters are Indian owned they are often told that there are no qualified Americans.

I'm not against India I am just pro America.


----------



## tsrwivey

AmmoSgt said:


> Haven't studied this aspect in any detail but since it helps the worker to retire ratio..i tend to think it is more likely a plus


A large portion of illegals work contract, self employed, etc. While the income may be reported to the IRS, it's 1099 so no taxes are withheld. Many others are paid cash under the table & I doubt they're reporting that income to the IRS & paying taxes on it. Try getting information from folks who have firsthand knowledge, it's generally more accurate.


----------



## tmttactical

Caribou said:


> I am so glad that you found the right doctor at that important time of your life.
> 
> The issue is not doctors. My guess is that there is a shortage of doctors and nurses. Was this doctor here on an H-1B visa, a student visa, or a green card? It doesn't really matter.
> 
> The issue is hiring tech positions when we have adequate personnel available. H-1B's are suppose to be for exceptional cases and for a short period of time there the appropriately trained person is not available. H-1B visas are only good for three years but at the end of three years they are regularly renewed.
> 
> Businesses are letting their long time staff go and hiring H-1B's to replace them. They are requiring them to train their replacements. Colleges are doing the same. I refuse to believe that colleges can't train their own IT department, or that people with 10+ years of excellent reviews are suddenly incompetent.
> 
> Other, smaller, businesses are looking to headhunters to fill their positions. When these headhunters are Indian owned they are often told that there are no qualified Americans.
> 
> I'm not against India I am just pro America.


Caribou, Very well stated. I am not against foreign workers but I am pro American. I wonder if the employers were required to pay double the current labor rate for HB1 workers, would they still need the HB1 program. If they are willing to pay double, then there is a real shortage and the educational institutions will brake records in establishing classes. Thank you for the clear and concise explanation to my much too long post.


----------



## drfacefixer

tmttactical said:


> Caribou, Very well stated. I am not against foreign workers but I am pro American. I wonder if the employers were required to pay double the current labor rate for HB1 workers, would they still need the HB1 program. If they are willing to pay double, then there is a real shortage and the educational institutions will brake records in establishing classes. Thank you for the clear and concise explanation to my much too long post.


Employers can and would use more expensive American resources if forced too, but we value stable economic growth as long as unemployment is low. We aren't reporting American job satisfaction here. There has been hearings on it and its pretty much the same conclusion as we have on this forum. 
The H-1B program has been criticized on many grounds. According to Senator Chuck Grassley of Iowa, chairman of the committee:

"	The program was intended to serve employers who could not find the skilled workers they needed in the United States. Most people believe that employers are supposed to recruit Americans before they petition for an H-1B worker. Yet, under the law, most employers are not required to prove to the Department of Labor that they tried to find an American to fill the job first. And, if there is an equally or even better qualified U.S. worker available, the company does not have to offer him or her the job. Over the years the program has become a government-assisted way for employers to bring in cheaper foreign labor, and now it appears these foreign workers take over - rather than complement - the U.S. workforce.[53]	"

According to the editorial board of The New York Times, speaking in June 2015, loopholes and lax enforcement of the H-1B visa program has resulted in exploitation of both visa holders and American workers.

Its an easy but slow fix but you'll likely slow the growth of these industries trying to reset them to what they should have been without taking the quick route and loopholes. Who wants to do that on their watch? And with our employment rate at NAIRU, its a hard sell to drastically change anything quickly. As we employ more Americans at the bottom, the minimum wage is now starting to rise. If we start rebuilding the $130K and up job market, the bottom is going to stagnate. The HB1 program is going to need a long term reduction to put Americans back in those jobs.


----------



## Meerkat

Bottom line is the corporations are in ti for the profits and could care less about the nation that made them all ultra rich. Bill Gates, Facebook guy Zuckerberg , and others like low wage since to some there is never enough. 

I'm all for capitalism long as it serves us. But phoney capitalism serves nobody but them in the end.

These movie scars in HollyHood make lots of money off the abuse of people in nations like India in sweat shops. Greed is two edged sword. Without greed we never would have become great but it has its limits. Greed without character is evil.


----------



## readytogo

*Is migration good for the economy?*

You know that a tough time is coming when you look twice at your utility bills or complain about the cost of food but over look your table full of potato chips or sodas or beer or the air condition is running non-stop and all the flat screens are on; no need to complain your, economy is heading out the door and oh let's not forget the new vehicle park outside vs. the old one that needed a new transmission for $1000 vs. the $30,000.00 plus new one. Now somehow immigration got into this ,I guess if you don`t want to get your hands dirty or lack skills or education you think you have a right to complain ,well you don`t ,no one does in that situation. My neighbor has been in this country for a year now he owns his vehicle bought one for his daughter and just sold one he bough to fix for resale ,he has a trade ,dirty trade ,body repair he learn it in Cuba and is at it from sun up to sun down 7 days a week ,sending money to his wife and brought his daughter and husband over ,never complains. Hospitals are full of immigrants too they perform dirty jobs and high paying jobs too, is because they have the education and training to do those jobs ,believe me. So I don`t see the problem.
http://www.oecd.org/migration/OECD Migration Policy Debates Numero 2.pdf
What are the jobs Americans won't do?
http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2007/01/dirty_work.html
Jobs Americans Won't Do?
https://www.numbersusa.org/pages/jobs-americans-wont-do
And not just white Americans ,Cuban Americans ,Chinese Americans ,Muslim Americans ,Black Americans ,etc. ,we have to remember that the welfare system is there for the taking....


----------



## hiwall

Sorry but I am against all immigration. I feel it should be just stopped for a two year period. After those two years then re-evaluate immigration and make an informed decision at that time.
For the most part immigrants live tax-free and draw money from our government. In case you missed it we are over $20,000,000,000,000 in debt. That is a lot of zeros. We are also on the hook for maybe $100 trillion in unfunded liabilities. While supposedly unemployment is down we have a huge percentage of working age adults that are out of the work force.
At this moment we do not need any more immigrants.


----------



## BillS

It's not talked about but Hispanics in general aren't a good deal for America. On average, they don't value education, they have high illegitimacy rates, high incarceration rates and AS A GROUP they get more in benefits than they pay in taxes. Obama was letting them in illegally by the millions as a way to deliberately bankrupt the country and to vote Democratic.


----------



## bkt

What does any of this have to do with prepping? If the answer is "nothing" then why isn't it in the Politics section?


----------



## phideaux

bkt said:


> What does any of this have to do with prepping? If the answer is "nothing" then why isn't it in the Politics section?


 Started as a post about the economy, I think.

Looks like another thread that just got derailed.

Happens a lot.

Read the rules , and we can give room ...

OR, we can keep it on track....just how tight?

Don't think I want to start down that road, if the folks don't want derailing, I had rather you folks get train back on.

If that don't work, we can .

Jim


----------



## bkt

Yeah, I hear you. I'm not blameless in taking subjects off track. But let's try to keep this in the context of "bad economic times are ahead and here's what we can do as preppers to mitigate some of what awaits us".

If this is a blame-fest on who's to blame for the bad economic times are ahead, well, OK. It's the mod's call.


----------



## readytogo

I was wondering the same thing ,money issues at home have nothing to do with the wall or Mexicans or Cubans ,we need to go back to the subject matter here ,my opinion.


----------



## hiwall

> *Why tougher times lie ahead *


Who says tougher times ARE ahead for us? No one knows what the future will bring.

Many people expected super high inflation in the USA when the Federal Reserve added 3 or 4 trillion 'new' dollars over the last few years and for the most part we never had much inflation. But I read this article and some of it makes sense. The inflation did happen just like many of us thought it would. But because the banks (financial markets) got those new dollars the inflation happened there. That is why the world stock markets are so high. You can read it here............

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-03-11/when-all-blows


> In terms how this will all end, we favor the scenario put forth by Eric Janszen in 1998 called the Ka-POOM theory.
> 
> This theory rests on the belief that the Federal Reserve along with the other world central banks looked at Japan's several decades of economic stagnation and decided that deflationary recessions are to be avoided at all costs -- even if that means blowing asset bubbles and then cleaning up the destruction left behind in their aftermath.
> 
> Because the Fed, et al. have a limited playbook (which is: print, and then print some more), the Ka-POOM model calls for limited periods of disinflation, followed by massive money printing sprees that then produce high inflation.
> 
> Despite the trillions and trillions in thin-air money printed by the world's central banks over the past 8 years, a common rebuttal we hear is "But there's been no inflation so far!" To which I reply, "Yes, that's what we're being told. But that's not actually true."
> 
> Remember: inflation is simply "too much money chasing too few goods." We can detect today's excess of money in the rising prices in our cost of living -- but those higher prices are symptoms, not causes. Inflation is not "higher prices". Inflation is "too much money".
> 
> Next, inflation is not an evenly-distributed event. It's not like the price of everything rises 10% at the same time. The inflation rate is an average, which contains some prices going up, while others stay flat or even go down going down. It's always a lumpy experience. The reason why is that money is not evenly distributed across the economy, and it doesn't always chase (or desire) the same things.
> 
> So the Fed and other central banks have printed up trillions and trillions of dollars, euros and yen, which they then essentially handed over to the financial markets and the very few people who work within them (as well as their biggest clients). As a direct consequence, we've seen enormous inflation in the prices of things that relate to that tiny universe of people - stocks, bonds, trophy city apartments, Gulfstream 5 jets, fine art, and rare gems.
> 
> These items have all gotten massively more expensive over the past decade. Just as would have happened if the Fed had printed up a trillion dollars and given them everyone living in a trailer park in the American South, with the restriction that the money could only be used to buy other trailers in the region. Do you have any doubt that the price of trailers in the South wouldn't explode upwards?
> 
> Well, that's exactly analogous to what has happened to financial and trophy assets. The amount of money created and poured into the financial markets by that central banks has been incredibly enormous. As a first-order event, it raised the prices of nearly all financial assets. And then, as a second-order derivative, it then flowed into the properties and cherished possessions of the financial industry insiders.
> 
> The summary is that we've already had lots of inflation - but it has (so far) been mostly contained to the areas where the freshly-printed money was first directed. No surprise there.
> 
> But it's certainly not only been limited to the rarified items the rich enjoy. Anyone who is currently looking to purchase a home, car or college education has a pretty good idea how prices have jumped substantially over the past decade.
> 
> Here's the thing about the attempts by central banks to circumvent the workings of the actual economy by simply printing up money: It is doomed to fail. It always does; one cannot simply 'print up' prosperity. Printing up money merely creates the illusion of free wealth for those with first access to it. In reality, what happens is that it secretly transfers the wealth from everyone else to those lucky few.
> 
> The Fed and the rest of the central banking cartel are consciously and very pointedly picking winners and losers.
> 
> It's not in their power to make everyone a winner. So they have decided to throwing granny (and savers and pensions) under the bus while financial elites and well-connected speculators (e.g. JP Morgan and other large banks) extremely wealthy in the process. Wealth is being transferred from Parties B-Z to Party A - from the many to the few.
> 
> What the Fed promised would happen along with all of this money printing has not materialized. There has been no return to rapid economic growth. And there won't be, because we have massive structural problems in our economy that can't be papered over forever.


----------



## drfacefixer

Meerkat said:


> Bottom line is the corporations are in ti for the profits and could care less about the nation that made them all ultra rich. Bill Gates, Facebook guy Zuckerberg , and others like low wage since to some there is never enough.
> 
> I'm all for capitalism long as it serves us. But phoney capitalism serves nobody but them in the end.
> 
> These movie scars in HollyHood make lots of money off the abuse of people in nations like India in sweat shops. Greed is two edged sword. Without greed we never would have become great but it has its limits. Greed without character is evil.


I think you got Bill Gates grouped wrong. That guy has given away well over $28 billions dollars. He and Melinda together with Warren Buffett have made financial donations in developing countries that dwarf what other countries including the US have given in terms of medical aid and developing economic growth. Thats hella good for keeping things happy here.

What you need is built in altruism - put some of that in your preps so you can model the society you desire. The LDS church does it all the time.


----------



## bkt

Not to split hairs, but altruism is defined as the devotion to the well-being of others. Charity, I think, is what you meant. We should certainly help those who need our help, if and only if we can afford to provide that help. But we must not sacrifice ourselves, our families, or our friends for strangers.

As preppers, it would be wise to set aside some food, clothing, tools, etc. you wouldn't mind parting with.


----------



## drfacefixer

bkt said:


> Not to split hairs, but altruism is defined as the devotion to the well-being of others. Charity, I think, is what you meant. We should certainly help those who need our help, if and only if we can afford to provide that help. But we must not sacrifice ourselves, our families, or our friends for strangers.
> 
> As preppers, it would be wise to set aside some food, clothing, tools, etc. you wouldn't mind parting with.


Agree on both accounts. Psychology and Game Theory however, use altruism as an unexpected selfless act in a decision making process. Charity doesn't work in that context since there is usually a payoff in altruistic behavior reciprocated by the other party involved. Its a component of the human dynamic that is hard to model mathematically.

An example I gave here prior was the intentional lack of shooting one another on the German front lines in both world wars or the practiced norm of not shooting down airmen once they bailed from their planes. Once one side gave, so did the other in a a calculated reciprocation. It wasn't just charity, both sides favored the outcome of their decisions even though logically it wasn't in the best interest of the war as a whole.

The walking dead is full of these types of examples that could be used as examples and related towards prepping.


----------



## tmttactical

drfacefixer said:


> I think you got Bill Gates grouped wrong. That guy has given away well over $28 billions dollars. He and Melinda together with Warren Buffett have made financial donations in developing countries that dwarf what other countries including the US have given in terms of medical aid and developing economic growth. Thats hella good for keeping things happy here.What you need is built in altruism - put some of that in your preps so you can model the society you desire. The LDS church does it all the time.


I wish the Gates and Buffett would have spent the 28 billion on the people in America, like the VETS, american starving children and maybe a few desperate seniors. I appreciate them helping out but wish they spent in in the country that helped them make it. JMHO.


----------



## readytogo

This topic is about why tougher times lie ahead ,the times we face now and in the future and what are you ,a private small economy ;your home your bossiness ,is doing about it ,the bill gates of the world are in another level ,many are helping others and others are just greedy.With that been said ,what are you doing to help your world ,any changes in your money diet ,any talk around the dinner table with family or friends .On our last meeting (friendly bbq) we discuss money issues and it turn out that many of the young ones had issues and many arguments ensue between the couples one blaming the other over their spending habit's ,so there are problems on the money front and many don`t even realize it .Folks I baked for my money problems and better health.







I`m going to have breakfast now but lets bring ideas to the table.


----------



## Flight1630

readytogo said:


> I`m going to have breakfast now but lets bring ideas to the table.


I agree on ideas even though I might not be able to bring many ideas but I'm sure I'll bring one or two eventually.


----------



## readytogo

The economy on the news this morning ,the Feds are raising the interest rate again by .25%,and what does it means for all of Us ,well if you have variable interest loans they will go up,buying a new vehicle you will pay more ,using your credit card you will pay more, new home loan more and if you have money in a saving account you may get more also. Also you will see a little inflation, buying goods will be more expensive. Plain and simple save more ,put away .25% more in the bank or pay .25% more towards your debts or better yet, don`t get any debts.


----------



## readytogo

According to the EPI;We're Far From Broke but we have issues that need fixing.
http://www.epi.org/publication/lets...icas-real-spending-problem-and-how-to-fix-it/
Just like my ex-son-in-law ,the kid makes $50,000.00 a year and hasn`t got a penny in the bank, he comes by so I can fix his car once in a while ,I feel sorry for people like that, so I do help.


----------



## hiwall

readytogo said:


> According to the EPI;We're Far From Broke but we have issues that need fixing.
> http://www.epi.org/publication/lets...icas-real-spending-problem-and-how-to-fix-it/


Everyone should read this article^^. It outlines pretty much what the left's ideas are. It mainly says good times are ahead and we will have a robust economy which will allow us to raise a huge amount in taxes.

Here are a couple of excerpts................



> The nation is considerably richer today than it was 50 years ago, and it is expected that significant growth in income and wealth will continue for the foreseeable future.
> There are several ways to increase tax revenues needed for public investment and strengthening the social insurance system by both broadening the federal tax base and raising tax rates. Examples include reducing the gap in tax rates between labor and capital incomes, limiting the value of tax expenditures, closing loopholes in the corporate income tax code, or even introducing new revenue sources like a wealth tax or a value-added tax.


----------



## readytogo

*Mr.Trumps new Budget could hurt you.*

While taking money away from programs and giving it to the military the government is not cutting down on its debt ,is like taking money from your food budget to buy that new truck but even worst many families in rural America will suffer from those cuts that where not mention before he was elected ,America First could be a disaster for many.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/tr...americans-on-edge/ar-BByiJz9?ocid=mailsignout


----------



## AmishHeart

You have to remember that the government does not make any money. None at all. All they do is take money from the working taxpayers that pay taxes, and decide what to use it for. Then the redistribute it to whatever they see fit. Sometimes for welfare, sometimes for military. If they overspend, they usually raise taxes. We are the governments only source of income.
That being said, Americans that work and pay taxes are not in agreement how the government spends the money that they collected from us. 
For instance, I believe that there is rampant welfare fraud, and I believe that it should be cut off at some point. I think that people receiving welfare for a length of time that are not elderly, have little ones to take care of, or who are not disabled should have to work to get welfare. Even if it's not paid work, it could be approved volunteer work. I know in the state of New Mexico, that law has been passed twice in the last 5 years, but has never been used because it's been held up in court for being a "racist" law. Another law I don't like taxpayer money spent on is abortions. I believe that abortion is murder, and I don't want the government to use the money I sent to them to commit murder. And by the way, my husband and I work full time and pay taxes. A lot of taxes. So, my point is, you may not like it that tax money is not funding the programs that you agree with, and instead is funding military programs....but all I can say is join the crowd. Our government decides what to spend money on. Not us.


----------



## bkt

AmishHeart said:


> You have to remember that the government does not make any money. None at all. All they do is take money from the working taxpayers that pay taxes, and decide what to use it for. Then the redistribute it to whatever they see fit. Sometimes for welfare, sometimes for military. If they overspend, they usually raise taxes. We are the governments only source of income.


I wish that were the case, but it isn't. The Federal Reserve, which is NOT part of the Federal government, supplies the Treasury with money. Vast quantities of money, in fact. Where does that money come from? Thin air. Seriously.



AmishHeart said:


> That being said, Americans that work and pay taxes are not in agreement how the government spends the money that they collected from us.


Very true. If what our tax money is spent on were presented to us in an itemized fashion, there'd be a revolution.



AmishHeart said:


> For instance, I believe that there is rampant welfare fraud, and I believe that it should be cut off at some point.


Yes, just before it begins, I think. No welfare for anyone or anything ever. The government is not authorized to redistribute wealth.



AmishHeart said:


> I think that people receiving welfare for a length of time that are not elderly, have little ones to take care of, or who are not disabled should have to work to get welfare. Even if it's not paid work, it could be approved volunteer work. I know in the state of New Mexico, that law has been passed twice in the last 5 years, but has never been used because it's been held up in court for being a "racist" law. Another law I don't like taxpayer money spent on is abortions. I believe that abortion is murder, and I don't want the government to use the money I sent to them to commit murder. And by the way, my husband and I work full time and pay taxes. A lot of taxes. So, my point is, you may not like it that tax money is not funding the programs that you agree with, and instead is funding military programs....but all I can say is join the crowd. Our government decides what to spend money on. Not us.


We agree on abortion being murder, certainly. If we have life that will continue to thrive and mature if left to do so and that life has human DNA, we're talking about a human life. Ending that human life is murder. Period.


----------



## readytogo

Every working American pays taxes, every time you buy something you pay taxes, and I don`t agree on government paying for abortions either but there are other things that government pays for and is wasted money ,our tax dollars .While in the service I witness plenty of wasted tax dollars ,corporate abuses of tax laws that the average small business owner can`t used ,and is funny or hypocritical of our politicians that non of them ever talk about the Cuban Adjustment Act program and what it cost to the American tax payers ,all because the vote ,the powerful Cuban vote and money been given to the boys in Washington A recent Sun Sentinel investigation found that Cuban immigrants receive more than $680 million a year in welfare, and documented many cases in which Cuban immigrants return back home shortly after receiving citizenship and benefits in the U.S ,all pay with good dollars ,that program was never publicize or even mention ,yes many programs should be stop and our government should stop funding other governments but the money saved should at least go towards the national debt or at least a better health system because it looks like we are heading for another cold war and more military build up and I just wonder at what cost ,because you see folks communist don`t care about their people all it matters to them is guns and more guns while we should be concentrating on our welfare and fixing America's neglected infrastructure. My point of view folks.


----------



## drfacefixer

AmishHeart said:


> You have to remember that the government does not make any money. None at all. All they do is take money from the working taxpayers that pay taxes, and decide what to use it for.


Thats pretty much how all governments work. Thats how most social run services work too. Taxes aren't a bad thing, Its a societal contract. You benefit from a military, you benefit from law enforcement, fire, infrastructure, a legal system, a penal system and countless other systems of society you use daily. We pay into services because we all indirectly benefit from them and they would be problematic if you only paid per percentage of utilization, could opt out, or could pay per use. Can you imagine if you had to hire a judge to settle disputes? Or the police mainly worked for the people that funded them best? In central America, you prepay for ambulance use. If you haven't yet or can't, tough luck, no ride when you need it most.

And you by proxy do have a choice, but your vote is one of many. Just because your vote is not 100% represented by elected officials choices doesn't mean its not important.



AmishHeart said:


> Then the redistribute it to whatever they see fit.


You can believe that it is redistributed, but legally no. We have a progressive tax system. Trust me, I wish it was a flat tax. I wish it was only a flat 10% of EVERYONES taxes. Heck, I wish that If I've getting taxed at a third, everyone else was too. If you're not as a couple making over the $70K mark (and I personally don't have a clue were you fall - just being general) Then you are contributing a minimal amount to what the US spends. Actually, when you account for how much you pay into the system over a lifetime vs what you will draw on, most people that make less than $70K a year are barely a break even (hence the unstustainability in these programs)


















It may seem like you are paying plenty of taxes but in reality until you are making over the $100K mark you're just covering the cost of what the government will spend on you in terms of long term programs.(medicare, social security) Its mainly the top income earners that are footing the bulk of the 47% of the money spent on the actual budget. You can call it redistribution, but what the lesser earner really aren't getting the "wealth". More importantly, They don't have enough income to actually contribute. Taxing them is like giving a kid an allowance. It's a practical exercise in good citizenry. It may seem like a lot when its a percentage of their small paycheck, but its all coming back in one form or another. And we do this mainly because it saves us more societal headaches in the long run.


----------



## drfacefixer

readytogo said:


> While in the service I witness plenty of wasted tax dollars ,corporate abuses of tax laws that the average small business owner can`t used.


Kind of like the buried report in feb 2017 where the pentagon found out it could easier cut 125 billion in spending but feared to do so because it's budget wouldn't continue to increase.

The report, issued in January 2015, identified "a clear path" for the Defense Department to save $125 billion over five years. The plan would not have required layoffs of civil servants or reductions in military personnel. Instead, it would have streamlined the bureaucracy through attrition and early retirements, curtailed high-priced contractors and made better use of information technology.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/inve...b0774c1eaa5_story.html?utm_term=.599cc1b29141


----------



## AmmoSgt

The way you save mega bucks with the military is to bring back the draft. There is no free lunch, the draft will mean a lower motivated and lesser qualified force.. less professional I supposed would be the most accurate way to say it.. lower retention after serving the current 6 year obligation .. and yes, for those that don't know.. the draft is for 6 years .. usually served as two years active duty and 4 years inactive reserve .. no meetings.. you are basically a civilian those 4 years but can be recalled if needed.. or you can be assigned for those 4 years to the active reserve and have to make meetings and summer training. There is a whole complex scheme about how long you serve, if drafted you could get out of the draft altogether by volunteering to enlist for 3 years and you get better pay.. the US Army has different, higher, pay scale than the Army of the US.. just like the National Guard is different from the Army Reserve.

But right now we are bearing the cost of maintaining a full strength full time Military at all times and using pay and benefits as a recruiting tool.. with the draft we could pay less and still be assured of adequate manpower , pay only for weekends and a summer week for most of the troops in the active reserve and pay nothing for the inactive reserve except some minor administrative costs for keeping tabs on people in it. 

It would probably mean high casualties in battle .. but far less burn out , PTSD, and suicide in peace time from multiple deployments . .. you would save far more than a mere 125 Billion over 5 years ... and if history is any guide , the people/ civilian population would be a bigger factor in both going to war and when we pulled out of a war. National Interests that need protecting would have to be far more obvious and far more direct than some of the recent abstract geoglobal gobblygook rational reasons that are claimed but never defined. 

You want to save money on entitlements .. same thing there .. currently Parents are legally responsible for their children.. make adult children legally responsible for their now senior parents, at least as far as incomes go when calculating means tested entitlements and to some extent medical care/ insurance , food, and housing... some method of calculating the governments share that at least shares the cost on means tested benefits with the extent that their own children bear some of the cost of care and some responsibility for their quality of life. 

Less government involvement, more direct personal private participation in the welfare of your own family. As it stands folks get old and their kids dump them off on the taxpayers to care for them, to be responsible for them and their welfare/ quality of life... some children voluntarily step up , move their parents in, help with their day to day care .. some don't. Make it so that adult children not only have a moral obligation, a religious obligation, but also a tangible legal obligation to at east share the expenses and put some time in, or some money in, or both insuring the get decent care. 

Between those two ideas is a whole world of lower taxes or lower national debt. 

We can fight over if the savings go to paying down the debt or lower taxes after we start seeing the savings ... 

Government is going to keep borrowing money for the grandkids and great grand kids to pay off later as they do now if we don't do something anyway.. why not arrange a scheme of family taking care of it's own now so todays parents/ adult children can start saving the grandkids and great grandkids from having to payoff a monstrous national debt.

Everybody says they want less government.. the way you get less government is have the citizens put more skin in the game so the government doesn't have to do it all on the tax payers back.


----------



## readytogo

Government waste at its best. The Pig Book.

https://www.cagw.org/reporting/pig-book#Energy

25 Scandalous Examples Of Government Pork That Will Drive You Crazy
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-...rades-for-a-small-town-sheriffs-department-1#


----------



## LastOutlaw

Meerkat said:


> So right on this one. Indians from India are my favorite immigrants. They are great people on the most part. But we do hire far too many Indians in high tech jobs. And the medical industry is also full of Indians.
> 
> The pictures of medical staff on the hospital walls looks like it should be in India. I don't like it at all but an India Dr. saved my life in 1985. The other doc left me on the gurney to die because m insurance had lapsed, and this Dr.Pyesena 'spl' took over. They called in preacher for my last rights in a coma for 12 days. Galstone caused Pancreatitis in deadly. Dr Goldstone would not treat my Gallstone.


Yeah... I just went through the pancreatitis thing myself. I know it can be deadly. The first hospital I went to sent me home with tylenol-4. Got back in the car and went to a bigger city hospital and spent 5 days there.


----------



## readytogo

We need to control wasted not only at home but at work too people waste a lot at the grocery store I notice the many full shopping cards loaded with items left in the shelves by customers who just don`t care or are nothing more than pigs ,items that many are total lost ;frozen goods ,meats even open packages of half eaten goods ,some of those customers even complain about food cost while doing wrong ,right to my face and continue on like everything is ok.I like to bring this to their attention just to see their reaction ,some say that is a free country others say that they don`t care and go on. We paid for that type of ignorance by just not saying nothing by not bringing this ignorance to their attention ,some pass their ignorance to their children and the cycle continues. We should all get more involved in our society ,the savings could be big.


----------



## readytogo

Sears warns cash crush may kill chain 
http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...-chain/ar-BByziDh?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout
Retailers closing the most stores 
http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...stores/ar-BByv1Rl?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout
This is very sad but it was do to happen ,high prices for Chinese junk ,over building of stores in an already over build market ,corporate heads big bonuses while the workers got peanuts ,in other words ,greed. Yes pickup the family from a fancy city mall ,they went to a movie for mothers birthday celebration ,half the mall restaurants are close or closing ,$7.50 beer ,$4.00 bottle of water ,$5.00 ice tea ,$15.00 hamburger ,$30.00 average meal not including drinks and parking is not included ,is no wonder they are closing ,a city with a average work force in the service industry making minimum wages of $8.00 and paying $1200.00 for a one bedroom apartment, is sad ,so is no wonder many business are closing .I haven't been feeling ok lately ,back pain is killing me so this year I didn't bake my wife her cake ,we bought one, 6 inch round little cake ,$12.00 ,I guess we all know where this is going.


----------



## bkt

While greed may certainly be part of it, never attribute to malice those things that can be explained by incompetence: sometimes, people who sit on corporate boards are idiots. Also, don't overlook costs brought about by regulations from all levels of government.

In any event, we certainly do not have a free market.


----------



## JayJay

readytogo said:


> We need to control wasted not only at home but at work too people waste a lot at the grocery store I notice the many full shopping cards loaded with items left in the shelves by customers who just don`t care or are nothing more than pigs ,items that many are total lost ;frozen goods ,meats even open packages of half eaten goods ,some of those customers even complain about food cost while doing wrong ,right to my face and continue on like everything is ok.I like to bring this to their attention just to see their reaction ,some say that is a free country others say that they don`t care and go on. We paid for that type of ignorance by just not saying nothing by not bringing this ignorance to their attention ,some pass their ignorance to their children and the cycle continues. We should all get more involved in our society ,the savings could be big.


Confession: I am one who thinks about that waste every time I clear the table after dinner. If I can find a use for that food, yep, I will.
Not enough Chili for two?? Add macaroni........
Vegetables?? add cornbread and fried !!!! (fill in the blank).
Steamed vegetables?? Add rice. 
I can fix a meal for less than a dollar per person with leftovers. 
I don't have to or need to...I just was raised that way.


----------



## readytogo

'People aren't spending': stores close doors in 'oversaturated' US retail market ,yes everywhere you turn there is a store selling something ,around the corner from me 3 new retail stores have close ,4 restaurants,2 hardware stores ,my favorite Radio Shack close ,Pay less shoes is empty ;this is a good time to save money not spend it, you have all this 50% off signs everywhere of nothing but junk and another thing if you buy big appliances there is no warranty if the store closes ,so you better be careful .Learn how to repair thing and buy spared parts .
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/mar/26/us-retail-stores-market-macys-sears


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

readytogo said:


> 'People aren't spending': stores close doors in 'oversaturated' US retail market ,yes everywhere you turn there is a store selling something ,around the corner from me 3 new retail stores have close ,4 restaurants,2 hardware stores ,my favorite Radio Shack close ,Pay less shoes is empty ;this is a good time to save money not spend it, you have all this 50% off signs everywhere of nothing but junk and another thing if you buy big appliances there is no warranty if the store closes ,so you better be careful .Learn how to repair thing and buy spared parts .
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/mar/26/us-retail-stores-market-macys-sears


Again, retail is not dying for any other reason than it is being replaced by a different type of market. An online one. Your favorite radio shack closed?! Surely you werent blindsided?


----------



## LastOutlaw

I don't feel sorry for Sears. I do at times feel sorry for Mr. Roebuck.


----------



## readytogo

I feel sorry for all the people been left out while corporate heads cleanout but in a way is our own fault ,while looking for bargains we open the door for Chinese junk ,the made in America brand is gone ,we demanded higher wages and more benefits, corporate found a new way to make money and we help them ,we actually put the rope around our necks, we keep paying high prices for homes made out of toothpicks that we actually can`t afford ,the industry has never done anything for the working class ,so instead of boycotting the high prizes we bought them and the cycle continuous ,higher wages less benefits more junk less jobs higher cost and with the introduction of technologies is going to get worse .


----------



## readytogo

Americans who own small business ,the mom/pops that keep small towns working ,the small farmers that feed us ,are they getting a tax break?. Giving tax breaks to corporate America to keep them from crossing the border is the wrong way to go .Who will make up the difference on the tax rolls?. Us.
Indiana Board Set to Endorse $7M Carrier Deal Trump Brokered 
http://www.voanews.com/a/trump-carrier-indiana/3784849.html


----------



## tmttactical

readytogo said:


> Americans who own small business ,the mom/pops that keep small towns working ,the small farmers that feed us ,are they getting a tax break?. Giving tax breaks to corporate America to keep them from crossing the border is the wrong way to go .Who will make up the difference on the tax rolls?. Us.
> Indiana Board Set to Endorse $7M Carrier Deal Trump Brokered
> http://www.voanews.com/a/trump-carrier-indiana/3784849.html


RTG, You appear to enjoy posting about business and Trump deals, so here are a few questions.

1) How much tax revenue (employment tax was saved by keeping the jobs in Indiana?

2)How much welfare money was saved by not terminating those employees?

3) What is the ROI (Return on Investment) for the tax reduction?

4) When did Business become a social issue? I always understood business was for making money?

Please respond with your facts to these simply questions.


----------



## readytogo

tmttactical said:


> RTG, You appear to enjoy posting about business and Trump deals, so here are a few questions.
> 
> 1) How much tax revenue (employment tax was saved by keeping the jobs in Indiana?
> 
> 2)How much welfare money was saved by not terminating those employees?
> 
> 3) What is the ROI (Return on Investment) for the tax reduction?
> 
> 4) When did Business become a social issue? I always understood business was for making money?
> 
> Please respond with your facts to these simply questions.


Carrier is pledging to keep nearly 1,100 jobs at the factory, including about 800 production jobs that the company had planned to outsource to Mexico. But about 550 jobs are still being lost. Carrier is also investing $16 million for automation at the factory. Once automation is complete what is going to happen to those employs and tax breaks for the big boys but not the little people and who is going to make up the difference come on open your eyes and face reality here ,this guy is for the rich and rich only, never been to Indiana could care less about Indiana and in order to calculate ROI, I need the cost of the investment, there is no cost here, because he just gave then a tax break ,the company will pocket the gains and leave the state flat out ,there is no cure here.


----------



## tmttactical

readytogo said:


> Carrier is pledging to keep nearly 1,100 jobs at the factory, including about 800 production jobs that the company had planned to outsource to Mexico. But about 550 jobs are still being lost. Carrier is also investing $16 million for automation at the factory. Once automation is complete what is going to happen to those employs and tax breaks for the big boys but not the little people and who is going to make up the difference come on open your eyes and face reality here ,this guy is for the rich and rich only, never been to Indiana could care less about Indiana and in order to calculate ROI, I need the cost of the investment, there is no cost here, because he just gave then a tax break ,the company will pocket the gains and leave the state flat out ,there is no cure here.


Nice reply but you did not answer the questions, just more retro. Does Indiana save money with the tax cut to help keep the jobs? Of course jobs will be lost to automation, that is the reason for automation. How many of the existing people will be crossed trained for those new automated positions? How many jobs will be preserved in America to build the automation system to be installed in the Carrier plant? Do you think it would have be better to have closed the plant and moved all the jobs to Mexico? I am missing your point completely. Are you upset that Mexico lost the jobs or that Trump helped keep some of the jobs? What do you believe Carrier should have done or what did they do that was wrong or illegal?


----------



## readytogo

Ideology is more important than facts too many who are totally engross with a new idea or leadership; we all know what happen with Hitler and Castro but facts are there to be seen and turning a blind eye to them just makes us, well dumber, we can optimize a leader to a certain point, but reality is reality and just because we like the individual is no reason to turn a blind eye to his rhetoric ways that bring out the hidden devils in all of us .
Homebuilders struggle to fill jobs Americans don't want 
http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...t-want/ar-BBz1bRz?li=BBnbfcN&ocid=mailsignout


----------



## readytogo

Remember when Trump said he saved 1,100 jobs at a Carrier plant? 
http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...-plant/ar-BByZZSA?li=BBnbfcN&ocid=mailsignout
Lots of numbers here including a $200 million dollar bonus and the Indiana plant listed as "expendable."


----------



## tmttactical

readytogo said:


> Ideology is more important than facts too many who are totally engross with a new idea or leadership; we all know what happen with Hitler and Castro but facts are there to be seen and turning a blind eye to them just makes us, well dumber, we can optimize a leader to a certain point, but reality is reality and just because we like the individual is no reason to turn a blind eye to his rhetoric ways that bring out the hidden devils in all of us .
> Homebuilders struggle to fill jobs Americans don't want
> http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...t-want/ar-BBz1bRz?li=BBnbfcN&ocid=mailsignout


RTG, Ideology is the exact reason for Hitler and Castro. They used Ideology to justify all their horrors. Every type of crime and injustice can and is justified by somebodies Ideology. Your post is contradictory, You claim Ideology is more important than facts, then you try to use (your) facts to justify your post. If you can't answer the questions, you could simply state that and clarify your posts as just your opinion, not facts.

In my opinion (see how easy that is) while you did not like the oppressive Castro regime, you have a difficult time distinguishing from capitalist and socialist society. Companies in a capitalist country are not there to improve the lives of their employees, they are there to make a profit, the best way they can. That is their sole function and reason for being in business. The free market dictates the pay and benefits based on supply and demand. The person behind a shovel digging a ditch doe not earn the same as a person running mechanical ditch digger. The person framing a house does not make the same as the person who designed the house.

Now as for the Home builder quote. The housing industry went into the toilet a long time ago. Piece work payment drove out a lot of qualified people and then the housing collapse drove out many more. So why would somebody with other marketable skills want to remain in this industry? Construction has always had major upheavals, so once again, I am having trouble following the logic of your post. Feel free to clarify.

Last but not least, my devils are not hidden, on display for all to see.


----------



## AmishHeart

Ideology is never more important than facts.
Agree with you, tmttactical.
RTG....whose ideology is more important than facts? Socialism believes that ideology is more important than facts...selling people the "utopia" idea, and of course, that ideology is all wrong.


----------



## readytogo

More numbers.
There's not a hope alive for us': A factory Trump targeted begins its move to Mexico 
http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...mexico/ar-BBz1D06?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout
Maybe all the news outlets are lying ,maybe they are all evil and against the American people, maybe Trump should do like his friend in Russia and control the media.


----------



## tmttactical

readytogo said:


> More numbers.
> There's not a hope alive for us': A factory Trump targeted begins its move to Mexico
> http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...mexico/ar-BBz1D06?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout
> Maybe all the news outlets are lying ,maybe they are all evil and against the American people, maybe Trump should do like his friend in Russia and control the media.


RTG, Are you happy that Trump was not able to stop this move and 300 plus will lose their jobs? Trump never -ever promised he could stop all the companies from moving out, but he is still trying to stop it.

I found your post confusing, what exactly is your point?


----------



## readytogo

We all remember the wall street bailout now there is another issue around the corner
carloads going belly-up.
Why 'deep subprime' auto loans are beginning to worry Wall Street 
http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/mark...street/ar-BBz6OsQ?li=BBnbfcN&ocid=mailsignout
Everybody buying on credit just like before the great depression.


----------



## readytogo

tmttactical how can I be happy about the misery and pain of others I`m just pointing out what`s happening out there and the fact that Mr. Trump can stop corporate America under a free democracy from doing business as they see fit ,also giving corporations tax breaks diminishes the tax rolls on the cities and states while not taxing imported goods manufacture over seas by American companies ,a tax loophole ,is totally ironic ,while all other products pay a tax tariff, American companies get away from doing so, he complain that all those trade agreements are not fair well make everybody pay equal import taxes or isolate America from the world and see what happens.


----------



## AmishHeart

Regarding the auto loans...
So many people in our state buy a brand new car and live in the desert in a dumpy trailer. People like fancy new phones, new cars with crazy car payments, but need to understand that they need to make the payments or it gets repossessed. Credit card overspending, too. No sympathy from me. People need to take responsibility for their own bills, and not blame it on the company that loaned them money. That's the same mentality like excusing huge student loans taken out for a 4 yr degree in womens' studies. And then not being able to pay it back. Loans are meant to be paid back. And should be on time.


----------



## bkt

AmishHeart said:


> Regarding the auto loans...
> So many people in our state buy a brand new car and live in the desert in a dumpy trailer. People like fancy new phones, new cars with crazy car payments, but need to understand that they need to make the payments or it gets repossessed. Credit card overspending, too. No sympathy from me. People need to take responsibility for their own bills, and not blame it on the company that loaned them money. That's the same mentality like excusing huge student loans taken out for a 4 yr degree in womens' studies. And then not being able to pay it back. Loans are meant to be paid back. And should be on time.


100% correct. What that means, though, is that the individual must understand the consequence of taking a loan and he/she/it should be mature enough to meet their obligation. Unfortunately, I get the strong vibe that most people who leap at easy credit opportunities are the least likely to understand the impact of what they're doing.

At least with a car or home loan there is something tangible the bank can reclaim. A student loan is entirely unsecured: there's no way to take the knowledge out of a kid's head if s/he fails to pay back that loan. And if we're being honest, even if that were possible there would be no knowledge to take back because they're either a) idiots who didn't learn anything, or b) idiots who learned worthless nonsense they can't use to support themselves. (I'm assuming kids capable of majoring in the hard sciences are also smart enough to either avoid the need for loans or cognizant of their responsibilities and will pay the loan off.)

/rant off


----------



## hiwall

I will be buying a different house in the next couple months (hopefully). So today I talked to the banker about possibly getting a home equity loan on my current home until it sold. The banker said it is about a two month process and gave me a list of documents that I would have to bring in to apply. What a change in the dozen years. The whole deal turned me off. A dozen years ago I had done the home equity loan thing when I bought this house. It was no big deal then (half the people who worked in the bank knew me). 
So instead I called a friend of mine and asked if they could spot me for some money if I needed it before my current house sold. Of course they said yes just let them know when and how much. Way easier than the bank and will only cost me a dinner out with friends.


----------



## JayJay

hiwall said:


> I will be buying a different house in the next couple months (hopefully). So today I talked to the banker about possibly getting a home equity loan on my current home until it sold. The banker said it is about a two month process and gave me a list of documents that I would have to bring in to apply. What a change in the dozen years. The whole deal turned me off. A dozen years ago I had done the home equity loan thing when I bought this house. It was no big deal then (half the people who worked in the bank knew me).
> So instead I called a friend of mine and asked if they could spot me for some money if I needed it before my current house sold. Of course they said yes just let them know when and how much. Way easier than the bank and will only cost me a dinner out with friends.


Wish I had friends like that..oh, wait...wish I had friends..


----------



## tmttactical

readytogo said:


> tmttactical how can I be happy about the misery and pain of others I`m just pointing out what`s happening out there and the fact that Mr. Trump can stop corporate America under a free democracy from doing business as they see fit ,also giving corporations tax breaks diminishes the tax rolls on the cities and states while not taxing imported goods manufacture over seas by American companies ,a tax loophole ,is totally ironic ,while all other products pay a tax tariff, American companies get away from doing so, he complain that all those trade agreements are not fair well make everybody pay equal import taxes or isolate America from the world and see what happens.


RTG, That was a better response, at least I can read a comment applied to you verse just a link to a highly bias news site. So lets look at each point you have stated. 1) I am glad you are not happy those workers lost their jobs (your previous post did not clarify this issue). 2) "Mr. Trump can stop corporate America under a free democracy from doing business as they see fit" Either you mean't "Can'T Stop Corporate America" OR you do not understand how the laws of America apply. The President can not just decide to prohibit a corporation from making legal business decisions. 3) Presidents do not legislate (make Laws). Import taxes require legislation.

RTG. I see many negative comments about Trump and I sometimes think you confuse the actions of Trump with the actions / in-actions of congress. I promise you this, if you continue to only read articles from liberal sites, you are never going to be able to determine fact form fiction. I think you are a good man but I also think you need to remove the blinders and see the whole picture.

To be very clear--- In My OPINION---Capitalist companies are not required to improve the lives of their employees. Companies are not required to provide a living wage. Employees that don't like the pay or benefits are free to change companies. Supply and demands for skilled people will determine wage and benefits. Reward and Benefit --- NOT --- Social pampering.

The 1 Percent and taxes--- RTG why should the 1 Percent pay a higher percentage of taxes? I don't care how much more somebody makes or how much less somebody makes. I want everybody to pay the same percentages. Why should somebody be expected to pay a higher percentage because they were smarter. luckier or just better informed? Why should somebody a lower tax rate because they are dumber, unlucky or just make poor decisions? I don't punish other for being better off and I don't reward others for being worse off. That is the difference from a capitalist vs. socialist society. Earn it and it is yours --- Capitalist. Stick out your hand and punish the achievers -- Socialist.


----------



## hiwall

Like tmttactical says about taxing the rich. If they have to pay $9 in taxes on every $10 they make, how do they get ahead? Why should they work their butts off to make the money if the government is going to take almost all of it?
If I was rich and the gov was going to tax me at 80 or 90% I would either leave the country or sell out and just enjoy whatever money I had after I sold my business. There is just no incentive to work hard. And that is always the problem with any communist or socialist system. There is no incentive to work.


----------



## JayJay

hiwall said:


> Like tmttactical says about taxing the rich. If they have to pay $9 in taxes on every $10 they make, how do they get ahead? Why should they work their butts off to make the money if the government is going to take almost all of it?
> If I was rich and the gov was going to tax me at 80 or 90% I would either leave the country or sell out and just enjoy whatever money I had after I sold my business. There is just no incentive to work hard. And that is always the problem with any communist or socialist system. There is no incentive to work.


And the obvious; why school for 12 years as doctors do to have the same salary as the public teacher or dog catcher.


----------



## Pessimistic2

*Incentive...*



hiwall said:


> Like tmttactical says about taxing the rich. If they have to pay $9 in taxes on every $10 they make, how do they get ahead? Why should they work their butts off to make the money if the government is going to take almost all of it?
> If I was rich and the gov was going to tax me at 80 or 90% I would either leave the country or sell out and just enjoy whatever money I had after I sold my business. There is just no incentive to work hard. And that is always the problem with any communist or socialist system. There is no incentive to work.


Exactly......and this is why Socialism has NEVER "worked" in recorded history.
And the fact is the "wealthy" ALREADY pay over 75% of all "personal income tax." The bottom-feeding 50% pay less than 3%....you figure it out!!


----------



## readytogo

My sister and husband have a business ,he is always complaining about the cost of things and repairs to his vehicles and government this and government that but they drive a very top of the line Lexus have the latest I-phones love to eat in fancy places and their 5 acre homestead is full of junk instead of using the land for agricultural purposes also at one point I had to lend some money. So yes times will be tough if you make the wrong decisions and stupid mistakes, and if you take out a loan , you most paid it.They are not even saving for retirement.


----------



## readytogo

We al know that just because you start a business that all problems will go away but is not so and just because you make money one week doesn't mean next week will be the same, you need to have a budget and follow it you need to set aside for those emergencies that will soon come .I help anybody that I can and give opinions and subjections but it comes a time when you have to realized when to stop helping, is like drug addict that fails to admit the problem. The couple at the store was complaining about the cost of food while scratching $50 worth of lotto tickets.


----------



## readytogo

The Long, Rough Ride Ahead for 'Made in America' 
This is a typical story of why is going to be tough to get jobs and compete with countries that have a much lower standard of living or GDP than in the USA, is not just about bringing the factories back from overseas like Mr. Trump stated, in the USA many refused to work for less money that they esteem they should earn. Case in point here in Spain employers pays for the health insurance of workers, workers pay some social security and drugs but the bulk of it is cover by the employer therefore salaries are lower but everybody is cover and living. So we here either pay health coverage or lower the cost of the product or make a cheaper product or work more hours or what is eventually coming ,more automation at the work place ,maybe also we can lower our standard of living just a little and stop using plastic as much, many here can`t afford what they have anyway ,even in a two income household .

http://www.voanews.com/a/long-ride-ahead-for-made-in-america/3813221.html


----------



## bkt

Imagine if health care providers had to compete based on quality and prices and didn't draw money from the taxpayer via the government. It's a crazy idea, I know, but that's how it used to work before socialist health care became en vogue. People were kept healthy and weren't robbed blind.


----------



## readytogo

Money Money Money wow money everywhere we need money is a fact of life but we have also lost respect for money our government pays farmers not to grow food pays corporations or tax credits for the wasted food the DOD $640 toilet seats fiasco and now comes word the Air Force spent $1,868.15 for a toilet cover assembly or the average cost of attending an NFL game for a family of four is $412.64 not including food or drinks ,maybe that`s the reason why a baboon makes $300,00.00 per game and get play with each others butt ,so respect for money is out the door .yes is pure capitalism ,well the Great Depression was also pure capitalism and the banking crisis also ,out of all this confusion we also have corporate America paying our ex political leaders big money for talking about what we all already know ,another tax write-off that the average hard working mom and pop business can`t do ,hell I dream of a tax write-off from all the garbage I talk too ,but anyway folks ,saved your money try to fix what`s broken and support your local hometown business.
Barack Obama's $400,000 speech
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...owback/ar-BBApbc1?li=BBnbfcL&ocid=mailsignout


----------



## Pessimistic2

*Money, money, money...*

Playing "Keep Up With The Neighbors" is the biggest game in America, and one of the DUMBEST ways to live your life! The "neighbors" ain't payin' YOUR bills....who gives a damn what the neighbors have? What can YOU afford, taking into consideration "future needs?" If people quit worrying about the "neighbors" and started worrying about their OWN finances, maybe we wouldn't have a nation that has the highest "family debt load" in the entire world! So, your neighbors have a $100,000 Mercedes....guess what, a $1,000 used car does the same thing the Mercedes does...gets you from point "A" to point "B." John Doe has a $1.5 million dollar home? Great, and he can't do a damn thing you can't do in a $40,000 bungalow...cook, eat, sleep, watch TV, whatever. Want a successful life and a decent retirement? LIVE WITHIN YOUR BUDGET, and PLAN FOR THE FUTURE. To hell with the neighbors!:brickwall:


----------



## tmttactical

Pessimistic2 said:


> Playing "Keep Up With The Neighbors" is the biggest game in America, and one of the DUMBEST ways to live your life! The "neighbors" ain't payin' YOUR bills....who gives a damn what the neighbors have? What can YOU afford, taking into consideration "future needs?" If people quit worrying about the "neighbors" and started worrying about their OWN finances, maybe we wouldn't have a nation that has the highest "family debt load" in the entire world! So, your neighbors have a $100,000 Mercedes....guess what, a $1,000 used car does the same thing the Mercedes does...gets you from point "A" to point "B." John Doe has a $1.5 million dollar home? Great, and he can't do a damn thing you can't do in a $40,000 bungalow...cook, eat, sleep, watch TV, whatever. Want a successful life and a decent retirement? LIVE WITHIN YOUR BUDGET, and PLAN FOR THE FUTURE. To hell with the neighbors!:brickwall:


My ex-fiancee was always comparing us /our relationship / living standard to her friends and family. I did have an answer for her --- Go LIVE with them.

Have I mentioned I a bit blunt? BUT a lot happier now.


----------



## AmishHeart

What some don't realize is that we all really don't need all that "stuff". Kinda bogs you down. Then there's that problem with using and maintaining all that "stuff". Trying to explain that to my grandson. I tell him that we'll get him what he needs, not necessarily what he wants. That he'll have to work for.


----------



## tmttactical

*Harvard study figures out what most of us already knew!*

Okay,, first Yale with their SYMBOLIC hunger strike and now Harvard study figures out raising minimum wages adversely effects restaurants. Makes interesting reading as to how they were able to actually figure this "Rocket Science" out. Thank god these are private universities and not public funded.

Harvard Study Finds Restaurants More Likely to Close, Less Likely to Open After Wage Hikes.

Here is the link, not worth filling the page space with a paste.

http://freebeacon.com/issues/harvard-study-finds-restaurants-more-likely-to-close-less-likely-to-open-after-wage-hikes/


----------



## hiwall

> *Why tougher times lie ahead*


Maybe they don't.
Several indicators seem to be pointing to things getting better.
I'm not ready to sell my prepps but maybe things are not so bad. It doesn't hurt to have a little hope.


----------



## Pessimistic2

hiwall said:


> Maybe they don't.
> Several indicators seem to be pointing to things getting better.
> I'm not ready to sell my prepps but maybe things are not so bad. It doesn't hurt to have a little hope.


"Hope springs eternal," as some famous person once said (I have no clue WHO)..... Doesn't hurt to hope for the best. I just "hope" this N. Korea thing doesn't turn into REAL CLUSTERF43K........I'm not quite ready to unpack the Tahoe just yet. One of these days, Fat Boy Kim Jong Unhinged is just likely to go completely off the deep end and actually pull the trigger, and then it's all bets off...


----------



## bkt

hiwall said:


> Maybe they don't.
> Several indicators seem to be pointing to things getting better.
> I'm not ready to sell my prepps but maybe things are not so bad. It doesn't hurt to have a little hope.


Well, I hope you're right. But from where I sit, it certainly does not look like things are getting better economically or socially. I'll continue my prepping.

Worst case scenario if nothing ever goes wrong: I'll learn more skills, eat better than I would if I weren't prepping and save money.


----------



## bugoutbob

Well, I can't speak about south of the border but up here in the frozen north of Canada things are spirally downhill at an exponential rate.


----------



## obg12

bugoutbob said:


> Well, I can't speak about south of the border but up here in the frozen north of Canada things are spirally downhill at an exponential rate.


That post is just hard to " LIKE "


----------



## terri9630

I don't know about the economy in general, but all the train cars that were parked on the side of the mountain were gone when I went that way this week. There were dozens apon dozens there. Kinda hard to count at 50mph....


----------



## Pessimistic2

bugoutbob said:


> Well, I can't speak about south of the border but up here in the frozen north of Canada things are spirally downhill at an exponential rate.


Uhhhh, South of what border? Yours, or ours?


----------



## bugoutbob

I was thinking south of my border but I guess it applies to both.


----------



## tmttactical

*Apple is bringing jobs to the US with a billion-dollar fund*

*Is this some more of "Buy American - Hire American"? No credit was issued to Trump but what ever or WHO ever, this looks like another step towards the return of manufacturing.*

*Apple is bringing manufacturing jobs to the US with a billion-dollar fund
*
"Following a strong second fiscal quarter in 2017 in which its revenues hit nearly $53 billion, Apple is taking on a mission to bring manufacturing jobs back to the US with the creation of a billion-dollar fund that aims to do just that.

To be clear, that's just the initial amount that Apple is injecting into the effort. The company will announce the first investment from this fund later in May.

By doing that, we can be the ripple in the pond. Because if we can create many manufacturing jobs around, those manufacturing jobs create more jobs around them because you have a service industry that builds up around them.

That's an interesting move for the iPhone maker, which presently manufactures its hottest-selling mobile device in China through partner firms like Foxconn.

Cook noted that Apple presently has 80,000 people working in the US alone, of which about 25,000 are employed in the company's research and development wings. He also said that Apple spent $50 billion last year in the US, buying parts from suppliers who manufacture locally, including Corning and 3M.

It'll be interesting to follow Apple's effort to bring jobs stateside, and see what that spells for the prices of its products in the coming months. Given higher costs of labor in the country than in Asia, I'm not counting on iPhones and MacBooks getting any cheaper."

Here is the link: https://thenextweb.com/apple/2017/05/04/apple-is-investing-1-billion-to-bring-advanced-manufacturing-jobs-to-the-us/


----------



## bkt

A company exists to make the biggest profit it legally can. Labor is a huge cost burden in this country due to many things. If a company can make great products elsewhere and keep prices down for consumers and turn a huge profit for shareholders, it makes sense to do that. It's idiotic to spend $1 billion to bring jobs back to the U.S. if it is not business savvy or consumer friendly.

We might want to ask ourselves why employing Americans in manufacturing costs so much more than employing Chinese.


----------



## TheLazyL

bkt said:


> ...We might want to ask ourselves why employing Americans in manufacturing costs so much more than employing Chinese.


At one time the American Autoworker was paid twice the amount of his Japanese counterpart and produced half as many cars.

American mandated health insurance, taxes, union, taxes, OSHA, taxes, bureaucracy and taxes is something the Chinese don't have on the same scale?


----------



## Meerkat

readytogo said:


> Money Money Money wow money everywhere we need money is a fact of life but we have also lost respect for money our government pays farmers not to grow food pays corporations or tax credits for the wasted food the DOD $640 toilet seats fiasco and now comes word the Air Force spent $1,868.15 for a toilet cover assembly or the average cost of attending an NFL game for a family of four is $412.64 not including food or drinks ,maybe that`s the reason why a baboon makes $300,00.00 per game and get play with each others butt ,so respect for money is out the door .yes is pure capitalism ,well the Great Depression was also pure capitalism and the banking crisis also ,out of all this confusion we also have corporate America paying our ex political leaders big money for talking about what we all already know ,another tax write-off that the average hard working mom and pop business can`t do ,hell I dream of a tax write-off from all the garbage I talk too ,but anyway folks ,saved your money try to fix what`s broken and support your local hometown business.
> Barack Obama's $400,000 speech
> http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...owback/ar-BBApbc1?li=BBnbfcL&ocid=mailsignout


 Bread and circuses always end up being starvation and tyranny.

The only way an American male now can beat his chest is through his idols in sports. Otherwise he allows his nation to crumble and his childrens future be destroyed.

Want to make the new age man mad just insult his fav gladiator.


----------



## Meerkat

TheLazyL said:


> At one time the American Autoworker was paid twice the amount of his Japanese counterpart and produced half as many cars.
> 
> American mandated health insurance, taxes, union, taxes, OSHA, taxes, bureaucracy and taxes is something the Chinese don't have on the same scale?


Which none of the above burdens the employer, its all deducted out of the employees paycheck. While the employer gets write off for the health insurance that would otherwise be paid in taxes. So it cost them nothing in comparison.

I worked on the line at GM in 1973-74 one plant in Lakewood one in Doraville. The union was in with the management. And no farm worker ever worked any harder than new hires on the line. I quit because the union was worthless and I wrote that as reason on my paperwork. 
The last decent strike autoworkers had was 30 and out for retirement in 1973.


----------



## Pessimistic2

bkt said:


> A company exists to make the biggest profit it legally can. Labor is a huge cost burden in this country due to many things. If a company can make great products elsewhere and keep prices down for consumers and turn a huge profit for shareholders, it makes sense to do that. It's idiotic to spend $1 billion to bring jobs back to the U.S. if it is not business savvy or consumer friendly. We might want to ask ourselves why employing Americans in manufacturing costs so much more than employing Chinese.


One word.....*UNIONS*.


----------



## JayJay

We might want to ask ourselves why employing Americans in manufacturing costs so much more than employing Chinese

Well....for starters we don't live 40 to a room and eat rice every meal???


----------



## tmttactical

bkt said:


> A company exists to make the biggest profit it legally can. Labor is a huge cost burden in this country due to many things. If a company can make great products elsewhere and keep prices down for consumers and turn a huge profit for shareholders, it makes sense to do that. It's idiotic to spend $1 billion to bring jobs back to the U.S. if it is not business savvy or consumer friendly.
> 
> We might want to ask ourselves why employing Americans in manufacturing costs so much more than employing Chinese.


I think the key phrase is keep prices down. Import taxes VAT (value added tax) and the cost rises. Companies do not dedicate a billion dollars unless they expect to benefit. Apple believes there is some type of future cost saving and I expect they are seeing the writing on the (Trump) wall.


----------



## bkt

TheLazyL said:


> At one time the American Autoworker was paid twice the amount of his Japanese counterpart and produced half as many cars.
> 
> American mandated health insurance, taxes, union, taxes, OSHA, taxes, bureaucracy and taxes is something the Chinese don't have on the same scale?


Certainly! The cost of employing someone in the U.S. legally is far, far higher than what's in their paycheck. Those cost burdens don't exist in other countries. Hence, cheap labor over there.


----------



## bkt

tmttactical said:


> I think the key phrase is keep prices down. Import taxes VAT (value added tax) and the cost rises. Companies do not dedicate a billion dollars unless they expect to benefit. Apple believes there is some type of future cost saving and I expect they are seeing the writing on the (Trump) wall.


That's fine, as long as Apple's benefit doesn't come in the way of a reduced tax burden or corporate welfare paid by us.


----------



## readytogo

Well every since the industrial revolution and the great depression our labor unions have demanded more ,salaries ,benefits ,vacation time ,labor pain days off ,etc ,etc and we have been getting them but nobody notice that the cost of things have been going up ,machines have been taking over and the computer age did a number on everybody ,we have neglected our training in the new technologies and on dirty jobs as well ;carpentry ,mechanics ,welding ,truck driving ,septic tank services ,machine shops ,metal stamping .On the news I have seen interviews with many in all this industries looking for qualified people ,even paying for training ,no one wants to get dirty or everybody esteems that they disserved more money or they all want to be doctors ,well we don`t need doctors but there is a tremendous need for nurses and assistance plus orderlies too, positions been filled by migrants .My daughter goes to medical school and the school is full of students from Haiti ,Thailand ,Singapore ,Cuba , African Americans ,China ,etc ,etc .The electrician school I went to is full of cubans and central americans so are the plumbing schools. Also and while the Chinese lived 40 to a room and eat a very healthy home cook diet and cubans eat their rice and beans many here have never learn the lessons from the great depression and while making more they also spend more on junk and shiny new trucks, statistics show that while americans earn more today than their ancestors ,they saved even less, our ancestor live in a smaller home, today`s generation want a bigger foot print on everything, trucks, cars, refrigerators, hell even TV`s. Many in total ignorance also called it pure capitalism that corporate America is using loop holds to the tax laws to hide money overseas while the workers pay all of it, or have taken jobs overseas to avoid paying the wages demanded here .Is purely the American way many have stated here, well maybe that’s why the Europeans and Orientals can afford to buy American real estate and take vacations and have a nice single payer health care system ,they saved their money so there is no room for criticizing what they eat or how they sleep. I eat rice and beans, my car is been pay for, my electric bill is $600.00 per year and as a family we have what we need, oh and I`m also very skillful in many trades ,so in my working years I was never unemployed and I couldn`t care less about mu ego ,my family came first.


----------



## AmishHeart

I noticed that prices of things are going up.

Just an FYI, I was told recently by my youngest college aged daughter that you can't say Orientals anymore. It's racist now. But you can say Asian.
Pretty funny


----------



## ClemKadiddlehopper

AmishHeart said:


> I noticed that prices of things are going up.
> 
> Just an FYI, I was told recently by my youngest college aged daughter that you can't say Orientals anymore. It's racist now. But you can say Asian.
> Pretty funny


Mmmmm , how about "1/2 a$$d china man"? 1/2 a$$d Asian just does't have the same ring to it when DH is calling me a ****** round eyes.

We like some good politically incorrect racist insults if they show some wit and we can figure them out; not claiming that what I just posted showed some wit, though. I have also been known to tell him to go build a railroad when I get :brickwall: with him.:ignore::kiss:


----------



## tmttactical

Caribou said:


> The heating tech school I went to didn't have a single Cuban in my class. Could it be the neighborhood? Naw, probably not.


Not a single Cuban in any of my trade classes. welding, HVAC. Overhead doors, electrical, plumbing, or any of my college courses, yes could be the location.


----------



## Pessimistic2

Caribou said:


> The heating tech school I went to didn't have a single Cuban in my class. Could it be the neighborhood? Naw, probably not.





tmttactical said:


> Not a single Cuban in any of my trade classes. welding, HVAC. Overhead doors, electrical, plumbing, or any of my college courses, yes could be the location.


Ummmmm, let's see.....Miami + VoTech School = Many Cuban/Hispanic students.
Yup, gotta be the location!


----------



## oldasrocks

bkt said:


> Certainly! The cost of employing someone in the U.S. legally is far, far higher than what's in their paycheck. Those cost burdens don't exist in other countries. Hence, cheap labor over there.


You forgot sick leave, unemployment insurance, and all other perks are non existent in china.


----------



## tmttactical

It may have dawned on Apple that the current import export climate in China could drastically change under Trump. What happen to Apple if China decides they are not going to do business with the USA? 

Maybe they just learned not to put all their eggs in one Chinese basket? Maybe Apple discovered there were not going to be any Americans to buy Apple products, if manufacturing jobs did not come back to America. Remember, automation and minimum wage hikes eliminated the dummy jobs, so no dummies to buy Apples products.

The only thing I can guarantee is Apple expects a ROI (return on Investment) on the billion dollars being dedicated for American manufacturing.


----------



## Pessimistic2

tmttactical said:


> It may have dawned on Apple that the current import export climate in China could drastically change under Trump. What happen to Apple if China decides they are not going to do business with the USA? Maybe they just learned not to put all their eggs in one Chinese basket? Maybe Apple discovered there were not going to be any Americans to buy Apple products, if manufacturing jobs did not come back to America. Remember, automation and minimum wage hikes eliminated the dummy jobs, so no dummies to buy Apples products. The only thing I can guarantee is Apple expects a ROI (return on Investment) on the billion dollars being dedicated for American manufacturing.


With what Apple charges for their products they'll probably net a whole lot more than a billion. $700 for a new iPhone? Sheesh!


----------



## Pessimistic2

Caribou said:


> Good point. What happens if China decides to nationalize all American owned factories in China because we get into a trade war of some kind? What happens if China decides to buy the factories in China with worthless U.S. bonds? How long would it take to get setup in new factories? How long to setup a new supply chain? How many billions in lost sales would they experience?


----------



## bkt

oldasrocks said:


> You forgot sick leave, unemployment insurance, and all other perks are non existent in china.


Yup, you're right. And we'd all be better off without that stuff.


----------



## terri9630

Caribou said:


> Good point.
> 
> What happens if China decides to nationalize all American owned factories in China because we get into a trade war of some kind?
> 
> What happens if China decides to buy the factories in China with worthless U.S. bonds? How long would it take to get setup in new factories? How long to setup a new supply chain? How many billions in lost sales would they experience?


Good point. Especially after seeing what Venezuela did to GM recently.


----------



## bkt

China and the U.S. have trade relations that are unparalleled; we are China's bread and butter. The U.S. and Venezuela had pretty much nothing. Certainly nothing on the scale we have with China. For China to steal our factories and all the IP that goes with them, our relations would have had to sour long before that.


----------



## readytogo

*How much is too much?*

How many things are you going to buy? How many TV`s or radios or cell phones or big appliances or small ones or vehicles or expensive houses made of cheap 2 by 4`s .How much is too much? Does it make any sense to dump a working toaster for a new toaster or blender or a knife or even a pot, how about shoes do we really need that many or how about the $500 BBQ that can be replace with a simple metal grill and a few cement blocks .How much is too much?.
We are bombarded everyday with commercials, buy .buy, buy they said, spend spend, get credit, used your plastic, if you used your plastic you`ll earn points towards another toaster they said; we are surrounded by flimflammers bend on taking what you have, even your home; banks and insurance companies are ready to help you with open arms and a smile also a very small print ,they hired beautiful people to sell you their lies and put you in debt while taking millions in bonuses , oh is the American way is pure capitalism many would said ,is also the biggest lie in the world. Detroit makes millions of cars a year full of plastic and gadgets that they claim to cure all, dealers are full, at the end of the year they advertise big savings and we buy into it like kids to candy. The proof is in the pudding, the economy is not doing to go for many, retail chains closing repossessions on the raise, manufactures making junk to save money and make more profits; everything is plastic or thin metal and full of electronics from china, just take a good look at your appliances and cars now days .All over the world over consumption will stop even China has problems. In recent years China has been transitioning from an investment-driven economic model to one more reliant on consumer spending but it has been a bumpy ride now days with people not buying and government over spending, well just like here .We as a nation are actually digging our own graves. As a nation and as a people we need to focus on what`s important and what is needed ,not what we want.
$100,000 Production Pickup Truck. Have We Hit That Point?
http://www.dieselarmy.com/news/100000-production-pickup-truck-have-we-hit-that-point/


----------



## Sentry18

To be honest, a $100,000 work truck capable (if it is) of 300,000+ miles and countless hours on the job site is far less bothersome to me than watching all the soccer mom's sitting at Starbucks drinking $7-10 lattes 3-4 days a week. Week after week after week. Or like a buddy of mine who eats out several days a week even though he is living paycheck to paycheck. Pissing away a little money every day is far worse in my mind than spending some serious coin on something that is going to be put to work. Ever priced out a good farm tractor or a tractor-trailer? Well over that $100,000 but pay for themselves eventually.


----------



## Pessimistic2

Sentry18 said:


> To be honest, a $100,000 work truck capable (if it is) of 300,000+ miles and countless hours on the job site is far less bothersome to me than watching all the soccer mom's sitting at Starbucks drinking $7-10 lattes 3-4 days a week. Week after week after week. Or like a buddy of mine who eats out several days a week even though he is living paycheck to paycheck. Pissing away a little money every day is far worse in my mind than spending some serious coin on something that is going to be put to work. Ever priced out a good farm tractor or a tractor-trailer? Well over that $100,000 but pay for themselves eventually.


Not to mention several THOUSANDS of "homeless" people who *receive SSI, Soc.Sec.Disability, and VA Pensions* that spend all their money the first few days of the month on booze, drugs, etc., and never once make any kind of move to "get off the streets!" There ARE many programs to assist them, particularly through the VA (Domiciliary space IS available, NATIONWIDE)....but they simply will NOT apply for it! In fact, the VA offers the best "get off the streets" programs going....Domiciliary residence, TWE work programs that pay them for working, clothing, meals in the mess hall three times a day, etc., etc. I work with the volunteers at the Biloxi VA once or twice a month, and it's amazing how FEW vets take advantage of these programs. The Soc.Sec. people have programs available too, through local housing authorities (low income housing, and NOT in the ghetto, either!), but very few "homeless" people take advantage of this.

The only conclusion I can come to is that these people simply *do not want to be "off the streets!"* They would apparently rather spend their checks on booze, drugs, etc., than to actually "get a life." :scratch


----------



## ClemKadiddlehopper

Pessimistic2 said:


> Not to mention several THOUSANDS of "homeless" people who *receive SSI, Soc.Sec.Disability, and VA Pensions* that spend all their money the first few days of the month on booze, drugs, etc., and never once make any kind of move to "get off the streets!" There ARE many programs to assist them, particularly through the VA (Domiciliary space IS available, NATIONWIDE)....but they simply will NOT apply for it! In fact, the VA offers the best "get off the streets" programs going....Domiciliary residence, TWE work programs that pay them for working, clothing, meals in the mess hall three times a day, etc., etc. I work with the volunteers at the Biloxi VA once or twice a month, and it's amazing how FEW vets take advantage of these programs. The Soc.Sec. people have programs available too, through local housing authorities (low income housing, and NOT in the ghetto, either!), but very few "homeless" people take advantage of this.
> 
> *The only conclusion I can come to is that these people simply do not want to be "off the streets!" They would apparently rather spend their checks on booze, drugs, etc., than to actually "get a life." :scratch*




This is it in a nutshell.

My oldest brother hit the streets at 15ish. He is addicted to cocaine, heroin, alcohol and lord knows what else. Over the years, he has gotten clean more than a few times. Once he cleaned up, joined the US marines (medical discharge) from boot camp for epilepsy then got a job as a mechanic, got married and bought a house.

He lasted five years and hated every minute of 'normal' life. He walked out one day and went back to the streets where he has been ever since. That was the last time he ever tried to go straight.

He says he would rather be where he can trust people; that at least on the streets he knows who he needs to watch out for and why.

Normalcy bias from another point of view.


----------



## readytogo

Maybe this guy makes sense .
Joel Salatin - How To Quit Your Job And Start Farming; on you tube.




Some time ago I read something about this guy on a Homesteading Magazine and by chance I saw this looking for organic farms here in Miami ,but that's another story


----------



## Pessimistic2

readytogo said:


> Maybe this guy makes sense .
> Joel Salatin - How To Quit Your Job And Start Farming; on you tube.


Yes, he makes a *lot of sense,* and he tells it like it is. So, RTG, *start looking!!* Sooner or later, you *have got to get out of Miami,* that's nothing but a death trap. :beercheer:


----------



## Pessimistic2

*Tougher Times, they are arriving...*

Border Patrol experiencing more violent attacks...

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2017...igrants-growing-violent-border-patrol-agents/

Excerpt: "TUCSON, Arizona - Sinaloa Cartel-linked smugglers and migrants are growing more violent against U.S. Border Patrol agents in the Tucson sector as penalties for their crimes stiffen. Realizing that being caught now means almost certain prosecution and incarceration, the smugglers and migrants are increasingly becoming violent with Border Patrol agents in remote border regions in efforts to escape and evade justice.
Border Patrol Agent Art Del Cueto, speaking to Breitbart Texas in his role as National Border Patrol Council (NBPC) spokesman, stated, "The smugglers are definitely becoming more violent with our agents. They now try to evade arrest and even use force to get away from us where during the Obama years they would joke with us and not mind being caught. They knew, back then, that they would get away with violating our laws."
Agent Del Cueto continued, "We are talking about significant force and violence being used against our agents. Very recently, one smuggler slammed a large rock into the side of an agent's head."
The growing violent tendencies are not limited to the cartel's drug smugglers, according to Agent Del Cueto. "Even the illegal aliens who aren't smuggling dope are growing more violent as they now face consequences for illegally entering. Before they would be let go the next day or so, now they face incarceration for illegally entering. They are willing to do anything possible to evade us."
With the increased aggression levels on the part of the foreign nationals, the agents are forced to be on a higher alert level and willing to use higher level of force to defend their lives. *Agent Del Cueto stated, "It's a concern because when we use force we are put under a microscope and everything we do is scrutinized by different investigative bodies. There was a culture of destroying the lives of Border Patrol agents during the past presidential administration and unfortunately, that culture hasn't yet completely dissipated.""*


----------



## BillS

bkt said:


> China and the U.S. have trade relations that are unparalleled; we are China's bread and butter. The U.S. and Venezuela had pretty much nothing. Certainly nothing on the scale we have with China. For China to steal our factories and all the IP that goes with them, our relations would have had to sour long before that.


We would be their bread and butter if we didn't pay them in worthless paper. At some point China will reject dollar payments. Then a lot of American industry will be crippled because America doesn't really make cars. They assemble them from parts made elsewhere.


----------



## LastOutlaw

This thread is all over the place.


----------



## Pessimistic2

LastOutlaw said:


> This thread is all over the place.


True....but there are a great number of things that could bring on "why tougher times lie ahead." This is a pretty wide ranging subject, and I believe could go in many directions and still be relevant.


----------



## TriggerWarning

LastOutlaw said:


> This thread is all over the place.


This world is all over the place. Being my age, a "millennial", is honestly humiliating. I might be a die-hard environmentalist, but at least I'm not some dumb fake space-head progressive. My generation whines about how our parents and grandparents messed the world up, and a lot of our modern problems have roots several thousand years deep into time, but the state of affairs has exponentially deteriorated as Generation Y (why MY generation?!) reached "adulthood". Since the 1900s, civilization has been running toward a cliff. We jumped off the edge sometime between 2005-2015.


----------



## readytogo

We don`t have to quit anything we just need better choices in our life style we need smart decisions we need to think by ourselves and stop paying attention to all the commercialism we face everyday and we need to pass it to our children .I want what`s better for mine but I will not put myself in a situation that will cause hardship to me or family for something that makes no sense .I could have send my daughter to a nice out of the city school but at what sacrifice. We try to be like those folks on TV or the neighbors who happen to be drug dealers and we get in trouble .The lady at the bakery came in with lots of nice gold jewelry big cell phone even a table and a nice big purse ,time to pay ,no cash ,she claim her husband had taken it so out came plastic ,after two try's ,no money ,she try to call someone ,cell had no service I told her after she ask for my help ,gave her my cheap phone and 5 minutes later a kid came with some cash .She was embarrass as all hell. Nice big car too by the way. Probably bank own.


----------



## AmishHeart

Most people love living that way, RTG. I don't care what you tell them, there's no changing them. Take my mom, for instance. She's been California - ized for the last 50 years. She's been with us for 3 weeks now, and every day she watches what I do and questions...why do you do that? Why don't you take the easy way? You're cooking dinner AGAIN? Last night she asked me when I take the day off.
Ha. I said, "When I Go to the Range, you wanna come too?". I assured her she'd have a blast. 
Anyway, most of the people I see every day want the fast, easy way. The way that doesn't require much effort. Fancy phones, fast food, fun, fun, fun. 
My Amish cousins call women like that "Fancy English Ladies".


----------



## readytogo

I just got pay and pay all my bills ,0 balance ,so off to Wally $148.78 latter and we are home ,hell the cats got it better than the humans ,tuna and treats for them ,since I do all the cooking and baking we needed very little ,I have to bake another pound cake and make some pasta and sauce ,my daughter loves breakfast sandwiches so I need to bake her more biscuits too. The point here is not my ability to cook or bake is the fact that by doing so we eat healthier and saved a ton of money , no waste either ,I cook by portions ,very little leftovers .Is getting to the point that I has become a way of life for Us .Haven`t you notice the amount of meat in a quart of Chinese pork/chicken fried rice ,not a lot but it fills you up ,one cup of flour and two eggs make for enough pasta for a large family so why not learn to make it .Complaining about the cost of things while seating on the couch is not going to fix your economy and been a dependent of the capitalistic way of life is not either. Learn save and act now ,you may have more money in the emergency account.


----------



## AmishHeart

I liked what you said up until you said:
Being dependent on the capitalistic way of life.

I think you meant socialistic/communistic way of life.

Capitalism means do for yourself and your family. Take care of yourself. Don't seek government handouts.

It would be great if more people learned to cook, especially low income people dependent on EBT. They could eat a lot better and be alot healthier. I doubt that's going to happen. Most people wouldn't know what to do with a 5lb bag of flour. In my house, we buy the 25lb bag.


----------



## terri9630

I quit eating Chinese food. I was always hungry again after a short while and ate again.


----------



## readytogo

*Over production,gluttony and greed.*

Is all over the news another banking crisis is looming, car loans in default student loans in default housing market full of houses nobody can afford personal debt has double and our purchasing power has decline and somehow we continue to live in borrow time before the bubble burst. Dealers retailers are promising everything in the book to moved inventory and to me that`s very sad .How and when are we going to learn, how are we going to teach our children by example if we don`t have one .At the same time my neighbor is telling me he lose his job he's talking about buying a new ford truck and he had trouble paying for a new fuel pump ,oh well he is not the only one in that mess.
http://www.thedailylifer.com/buy-a-...nce-lot-pricing/?append=cpc&aff=4731&off=1520


----------



## AmishHeart

Of course.
That's why we prep.
That, and crazy Kim fatboy.
We're headed for another great depression.


----------



## DrPrepper

readytogo said:


> Is all over the news another banking crisis is looming, car loans in default student loans in default housing market full of houses nobody can afford personal debt has double and our purchasing power has decline and somehow we continue to live in borrow time before the bubble burst. Dealers retailers are promising everything in the book to moved inventory and to me that`s very sad .How and when are we going to learn, how are we going to teach our children by example if we don`t have one .At the same time my neighbor is telling me he lose his job he's talking about buying a new ford truck and he had trouble paying for a new fuel pump ,oh well he is not the only one in that mess.
> http://www.thedailylifer.com/buy-a-...nce-lot-pricing/?append=cpc&aff=4731&off=1520


 Of course dealers are going to make all kinds of promises and deals to move merchandise - that's how they make their living! However, the dealer is not forcing anyone to purchase- that is an individual decision. You cannot place the blame for bad purchasing decisions on the seller! The BUYER has to use good judgement when making purchases. We teach our children by setting a good example and exercising personal accountability and responsibility. There are many things I'd love to have (think folding stock AK 47 for one ), but I know I cannot afford it. No matter how many sweet deals I am offered, I know it is not in my budget and I have to resist. Your neighbor is NOT setting a good example of taking responsibility for his budget. (Of course, talking about buying a new truck may just be talk, and he may really know he can't afford it!)


----------



## Pessimistic2

readytogo said:


> Is all over the news another banking crisis is looming,


Looming? The "banking crisis" has been an ongoing thing for DECADES!

We are now at a "low," however. But historically, there have been some VERY bad years...2008 - 2012 for example.

http://www.davemanuel.com/history-of-bank-failures-in-the-united-states.php

Excerpt: "2012 - 57; 2011 - 94; 2010 - 157; 2009 - 140; 2008 - 30."


----------



## cqp33

Guys I work with always give me crap about my truck, 3/4 ton HD long bed crew cab, back drivers side dented in where it was rear ended (Insurance paid me $7,000 for that one) passengers door dented in when a deer hit it (Insurance paid $3,400 for that one), truck still runs, still functions so that money went towards a tractor. Still driving the beat up truck. I don't care that my truck has cosmetic damage, mechanically it is as sound as a new one since I do the maintenance on it. I am not buying a new one for $60,000-$70,000 even though I could afford it, doesn't make sense to me!


----------



## terri9630

cqp33 said:


> Guys I work with always give me crap about my truck, 3/4 ton HD long bed crew cab, back drivers side dented in where it was rear ended (Insurance paid me $7,000 for that one) passengers door dented in when a deer hit it (Insurance paid $3,400 for that one), truck still runs, still functions so that money went towards a tractor. Still driving the beat up truck. I don't care that my truck has cosmetic damage, mechanically it is as sound as a new one since I do the maintenance on it. I am not buying a new one for $60,000-$70,000 even though I could afford it, doesn't make sense to me!


I have an 02 dodge diesel and I get the same questions from the guys I work with. "Your husband makes good money. Why are you driving that 20yr old piece of crap?". Because it's paid off and only has 185,000 miles on it.


----------



## AmishHeart

We paid $$$ this last year to put a new engine in our pick up truck. BUT...it was paid off, everything else in great shape. Expensive, but a new one would mean car payments. So now I expect another 150K more miles at least.


----------



## Pessimistic2

cqp33 said:


> Guys I work with always give me crap about my truck, 3/4 ton HD long bed crew cab, back drivers side dented in where it was rear ended (Insurance paid me $7,000 for that one) passengers door dented in when a deer hit it (Insurance paid $3,400 for that one), truck still runs, still functions so that money went towards a tractor. Still driving the beat up truck. I don't care that my truck has cosmetic damage, mechanically it is as sound as a new one since I do the maintenance on it. I am not buying a new one for $60,000-$70,000 even though I could afford it, doesn't make sense to me!


Exactly! Give me a $3,000 "used truck," let me spend a couple thousand to get all necessary repairs taken care of, and for $5,000 or so you have something that will carry you through another 100,000+ miles......no one actually "needs" a brand new, off the showroom floor $50-$60,000 "new truck," which is gonna raise your insurance rates, kill you with finance charges, and very likely STILL NEED some repairs fairly quickly. Give me the old clunker and let me "fix it up!!"


----------



## readytogo

Capitalism ;over-production ,over-compsumtion and under-consumption equals a great depression ;we all like shiny things and no one forces us to buy anything but sooner or later ,and it has happen before ,someone somewhere it going to close a few doors ,nobody is buying the product , someone is going to be unemployed with payments ,the union dues that you pay will not return to you ,you will be collecting unemployment checks that will never cover your bills ,a chain reaction will ensued ,then what. That is my point here ,very few think of tomorrow ,if you are lucky enough to be mortgage free then you may get by but the facts are that many even have mortgage their homes for a trip or new vehicle and is sad to see a person up in age paying a mortgage for a cheap pile of plastic or a tri to Alaska .Don`t blame the country or the president because you fail to saved or because of our capitalistic ways ,after all we enjoy the system we fed the fire the flames just faded away .Very few remember the state Russia was in some 20 years ago and still suffers today .Very few remember our great depression ,so whether under communism or capitalism sooner or later gluttony will get you.


----------



## SewingMachine

Pretty interesting.

I hear more people talking about "being ready" for an event, typically an economic depression.

Not sure if it is related to politics (It didn't seem to be) , more people reading (wider availability) financial news, or what. But I have had 6 or 7? people bring up "readiness" in the last week alone. And some of them weren't people I would expect it from.

Anyone had any similar experiences?


----------



## AmishHeart

RTG...explain: because of our capitalistic ways, please.

Maybe being a prepper is cool again, Sewing Machine.


----------



## terri9630

RTG. It has nothing to do with capitalism and everything to do with personal responsibility. You are responsible for what you do and buy. If you only think of today then you may suffer tomorrow. That is life. Economics used to be taught in school so people had a grasp on money matters. They quit teaching it before I could take it. Just because you don't like the way people are living doesn't mean it's because we have a capitalistic system.


----------



## Pessimistic2

SewingMachine said:


> Pretty interesting. I hear more people talking about "being ready" for an event, typically an economic depression.
> Not sure if it is related to politics (It didn't seem to be) , more people reading (wider availability) financial news, or what. But I have had 6 or 7? people bring up "readiness" in the last week alone. And some of them weren't people I would expect it from. Anyone had any similar experiences?


I've had a couple of the "seniors" ask if I thought Trump can get things turned around. Remember, these are 70-90 yr olds who have LIVED THROUGH the "Liberalization of America," and know damn good and well we are headed for a fall if it continues. The general consensus among the "seniors crowd" here is that if the Admin/Congress don't get the job done in 4 years, it ain't gonna happen, because the Democrats will be pulling out all the stops in 2020, and they've got the "numbers." The seniors are really ticked off at the GOP for not getting on board and getting things done while they have a chance to do so.

The "mid-terms" will give us a pretty good idea of what's coming down the pike. If the Dems make any kind of "comeback" in the mid-terms, the GOP can very likely forget the Presidency in 2020.....HOPEFULLY, the GOP will not squander this opportunity, and will get on board, and get some things done, despite the frickin' Dems/ACLU, etc., trying to block everything in court. This is the really BAD thing....what the GOP *has done* is being blocked in court, making it appear the Republicans aren't doing anything at all in practical terms. It doesn't accomplish anything to pass a law or modify a law, if it never goes into effect because the Liberal azzholes have it tied up in court for years. In 2018, this gives the Dems the ability to say, "Look, the Republicans haven't accomplished anything." Never mind that the *reason* nothing was "accomplished" is because the Libturds had the legislation tied up in court so it *couldn't* go into effect. Damn I hate Liberals! :club::rant::gaah:


----------



## SewingMachine

Wages have been flat in relation to inflation since the early 70's.

My buying power with a dollar is less than my Father's in 1980.

There is no reason to have a savings account when the interest rate on savings is 0%.

I consider the dollar, a fiat currency, the underpinning of our capitalist society here in the States, to be of worth only because we continue to believe it has some. It's not like I can go to a bank, and turn it into anything else these days. Someone, somewhere, can do what would put me in prison probably for life, and that is print dollars all the live long day. The Fed can do that. They are not elected, not by us.

The Government, in my opinion, has either been forced or simply chosen to put me into debt, that debt to be collected in the form of taxes on my income, literally the work that I do. I work until, what, April? May? Strictly for the government.

The failures of Socialism are too numerous to mention. But then, IMO, what form of government or society has stood the test of time? Some tribal system in the Amazon maybe. Large, complicated systems fail. I think that is just the bottom line.

I don't hate Liberals. I don't love Conservatives. We are all Americans, and beyond that, we are all neighbors on an ever shrinking planet. I don't even hate Radical Islamic terrorists. I want them to die and be gone forever, but I don't hate them. It's not a war of terror, not to me. Its a war of culture, and in the long run, even if this country has another Great Depression, I am confident we will win that war. Because in general, we are pretty laid back, or at least not completely batshit crazy.

But Socialism, Communism, Capitalism...If I have to choose I obviously choose capitalism.

But leave it a capitalism based on me and you and our interactions.

Lets leave political parties, and the Government out of it. And if we have to have a government, and we do, then lets keep it small, and afraid of us, and working in our best interests.

I can dream.


----------



## Pessimistic2

SewingMachine...."But leave it a capitalism based on me and you and our interactions."

We don't actually have a "capitalist system." What we have is a mix of capitalism with interventionism. A true "capitalist system" is a completely "free market system." In today's world, don't hold your breath waiting on true capitalism. As long as the Socialist nations impose artificial market prices, we have no choice but to try and counter that with controls of our own on foreign goods, and try to make it "equalize out." The really "bad thing" we are doing today is subsidizing half the agribusinesses in the U. S., as well as giving up all the tax breaks to foreign corporations who want to put a plant in some politician's back yard, and making loans to "minority owned businesses" that will never be repaid, as well as "student loans" which will never be repaid, either.

A number of people are of the opinion that "economic collapse" is our greatest danger, among ALL the "bubbles" that could go "pop" at any time....can't say that I totally disagree with that theory....eventually the "house of cards" must fall, and it's not a question of "IF," but a question of "WHEN!"


----------



## Tirediron

If you stand back and look at things, too many people too far from the actual work are profiting from those who build or produce things, the university hierarchy if you don't have a degree you don't need to make decent money. 

how a lawyer is worth more than a gardener is ridicules


----------



## HardCider

When things collapse, a gardener will be worth more than a lawyer

And a bucket of seeds will be worth more than 1000 lawyers. Oh wait a minute, they already are


----------



## SewingMachine

Pessimistic2 said:


> A number of people are of the opinion that "economic collapse" is our greatest danger, among ALL the "bubbles" that could go "pop" at any time....can't say that I totally disagree with that theory....eventually the "house of cards" must fall, and it's not a question of "IF," but a question of "WHEN!"


Agree, Pess.

Agree with your take on our current state of capitalism, as well.

It is a house a cards, it has to be. When so many "critical" parts of our economy depend on debt, or taking from on segment of the economy to sustain another, there has to be a limit.

I don't believe "its different this time".


----------



## Pessimistic2

SewingMachine said:


> Agree, Pess. Agree with your take on our current state of capitalism, as well. It is a house a cards, it has to be. When so many "critical" parts of our economy depend on debt, or taking from on segment of the economy to sustain another, there has to be a limit. I don't believe "its different this time".


I left out the "Socialist" aspect....welfare galore. 103 million "employed," 109 million on some form of welfare.

Some think the Fed can "print its way through," but that doesn't work forever, either. There *WILL* be a day of reckoning...just a matter of "when."


----------



## sgtusmc98

AmishHeart said:


> I liked what you said up until you said:
> Being dependent on the capitalistic way of life.
> 
> I think you meant socialistic/communistic way of life.
> 
> Capitalism means do for yourself and your family. Take care of yourself. Don't seek government handouts.
> 
> It would be great if more people learned to cook, especially low income people dependent on EBT. They could eat a lot better and be alot healthier. I doubt that's going to happen. Most people wouldn't know what to do with a 5lb bag of flour. In my house, we buy the 25lb bag.


In regards to EBT, and granted I don't know much about it everything I am about to say is based on what people who have been on it have told me, I have been told that it is very difficult to eat healthy because especially if there are kids involved, it comes down to trying to fill the belly. Better foods are more expensive so sometimes macaroni and cheese is the meal because enough can be bought to satisfy hunger.

That may be off but it makes sense, like many government systems it seems to be broken.

From the times I have had very little money planning two days out was hard if I was worrying about eating today.

I think one of the missing parts of most government sponsored programs is education.

I have a lot of ideas on fixing the problem but if I was Kink for a day and implemented my plans immediately 50% of the population would hate me and probably another 25% would follow soon after, obviously I'm not king.


----------



## readytogo

Many have criticize me and stated that is the American way the capitalistic way to spend and waste and to take jobs overseas ,we live in a democracy they have said ,I use capitalism as the same as democracy ,we are free to do whatever we want ,so be it ,and just because wages have not gone up doesn't give any logical reason to go out and spend more money on credit or live outside your income ,many claim they will not lower their standard of living ,take a lower paying job ,maybe they just set their standard to high . Every year you hear about people investing in the stock market and every year people lose their investment or part of it ,the market is not for the average hourly laborer but a good budget is or a “do not touch “savings account .On the news yesterday a investor analyses specialist was preaching about people not investing enough of their cash ,that cash was kept in the bank or at home and that by retirement age Millennials will need $500,000.00 to $1.000,000.00 to retired in comfort ,that is if the retirement age stays the same at 67 for those born after 1960 and the life style is a modest one .At the rate we are going today many households don`t have a budget or savings they don`t even have an emergency fund ,many young couples today with a good job own more than they make many live with their parents drive a new car and own all the fancy gadgets available many parents go into debt to send their kids to a out of state school ,the biggest mistake a parent can make ,many working couples look for a big home rather than a startup property and the obvious reason after something happens is to blame the government or somebody else. The number one rule in survival is to take care number one and to save for a rainy day.


----------



## terri9630

readytogo said:


> Many have criticize me and stated that is the American way the capitalistic way to spend and waste and to take jobs overseas ,we live in a democracy they have said ,I use capitalism as the same as democracy ,we are free to do whatever we want ,so be it ,and just because wages have not gone up doesn't give any logical reason to go out and spend more money on credit or live outside your income ,many claim they will not lower their standard of living ,take a lower paying job ,maybe they just set their standard to high . Every year you hear about people investing in the stock market and every year people lose their investment or part of it ,the market is not for the average hourly laborer but a good budget is or a "do not touch "savings account .On the news yesterday a investor analyses specialist was preaching about people not investing enough of their cash ,that cash was kept in the bank or at home and that by retirement age Millennials will need $500,000.00 to $1.000,000.00 to retired in comfort ,that is if the retirement age stays the same at 67 for those born after 1960 and the life style is a modest one .At the rate we are going today many households don`t have a budget or savings they don`t even have an emergency fund ,many young couples today with a good job own more than they make many live with their parents drive a new car and own all the fancy gadgets available many parents go into debt to send their kids to a out of state school ,the biggest mistake a parent can make ,many working couples look for a big home rather than a startup property and the obvious reason after something happens is to blame the government or somebody else. The number one rule in survival is to take care number one and to save for a rainy day.


We live in a Democratic Republic. It still all comes down to personal responsibility. Talking Heads can say anything they like but it's a person's choices that matter and everyone is responsible for themselves. When consequences are removed, as we are currently seeing, people don't learn from their mistakes. The college students today will have a very steep learning curve once the real world hits them.

If people refuse to cut back and make due then they deserve to work until they drop. They did it to themselves.


----------



## Pessimistic2

*Here's one reason tougher times lie ahead......*

The Mayor of L.A. is an idiot.....

https://downtrend.com/71superb/la-mayor-encourages-illegal-aliens-to-riot-and-attack-ice-agents

Excerpt: "LA MAYOR ENCOURAGES ILLEGAL ALIENS TO RIOT AND ATTACK ICE AGENTS
JUNE 4, 2017| BY BRIAN ANDERSON

Los Angeles mayor Eric Garcetti has a dopey permanent smirk on his face because deep down he must know how shitty the things he says really are. In a recent interview the liberal politician said that ignoring criminal behavior will somehow make the city safer and encouraged illegal aliens to both riot and attack ICE agents in opposition to normal immigration enforcement. If history shows us anything, when liberals promote violence and unrest, they get it.

Garcetti was interviewed by Latino USA and was hopping mad that criminal aliens are being arrested and deported under President Trump's efforts to enforce our existing immigration laws. First, he gave a little wink to illegal aliens telling them they should attack Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents who try to arrest them.

"If something goes wrong, I fear a tinderbox out there, you know where people will suddenly say 'no' and try to defend. You know, keep that person from being taken. That's a very dangerous situation. That's dangerous for those officers. That's dangerous for those agents. And we're going to have to respond," said Garcetti.

Garcetti rambled on about how Los Angeles is a sanctuary city and that the LAPD has worked really hard to ignore criminal acts committed by illegal aliens. He then planted the seeds for massive illegal alien riots by bringing up past LA riots.

"We just commemorated, you know, 25 years since the urban unrest and we know how quickly things can explode," Garcetti said.

The "urban unrest" he is talking about is the 1992 Rodney King riot in which Los Angles was burned to the ground and 60 people were killed. Why bring this up when talking about illegal aliens unless Garcetti wants to see similar riots?

And finally Garcetti went after ICE for doing their jobs because liberals always side with the criminals.

"But when ICE calls themselves police, people open that door expecting to see LAPD. It's bad for ICE, and it's bad for LAPD," Garcetti said."


----------



## Sentry18

Pessimistic2 said:


> The Mayor of L.A. is an idiot.....


The next thing you know you will be telling me rain is wet.


----------



## Pessimistic2

Sentry18 said:


> The next thing you know you will be telling me rain is wet.


And ya can make it even wetter by adding some DMSO!! :rofl:


----------



## readytogo

The company is taking jobs overseas ,a very common situation now days ,they will saved money in salaries and benefits I guess ,but why can they offered a pay cut or work out a deal with the unions to keep does jobs here? I will be willing to take a cut just to keep my job ,even work two jobs or cut a few luxuries .This is very sad.
Lowes moves IT jobs to India, lays off 100 NC employees
http://abc11.com/business/lowes-moves-it-jobs-to-india-lays-off-100-nc-employees/2070160/
Sears also in trouble.
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/08/sear...stern-forge.html?__source=synacor&par=synacor


----------



## terri9630

readytogo said:


> The company is taking jobs overseas ,a very common situation now days ,they will saved money in salaries and benefits I guess ,but why can they offered a pay cut or work out a deal with the unions to keep does jobs here? I will be willing to take a cut just to keep my job ,even work two jobs or cut a few luxuries .This is very sad.
> Lowes moves IT jobs to India, lays off 100 NC employees
> http://abc11.com/business/lowes-moves-it-jobs-to-india-lays-off-100-nc-employees/2070160/
> Sears also in trouble.
> http://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/08/sear...stern-forge.html?__source=synacor&par=synacor


Unions want more. Not less. The union is what shut down Hostess. They reopened after leaving the country. Sears/Kmart has been in trouble for years.


----------



## Pessimistic2

readytogo said:


> The company is taking jobs overseas ,a very common situation now days ,they will saved money in salaries and benefits I guess ,but why can they offered a pay cut or work out a deal with the unions to keep does jobs here? I will be willing to take a cut just to keep my job ,even work two jobs or cut a few luxuries .This is very sad.
> Lowes moves IT jobs to India, lays off 100 NC employees


Unions exist to suck money out of their members.....and, of course, to get more money out of their members, they push for ever-increasing wages, eventually pricing the "Union worker" right out of the market, and their jobs disappear overseas. Kind of a self-defeating cycle, but the Union hierarchy doesn't care, as long as they keep getting "new Union members," to maintain their cash flow.


----------



## readytogo

No respect for money ,we have lost it we just work hard and spend it ,with the lost of our elders and their ways our new generation has no clue of what`s ahead ,many keep commercialism alive and well many live in a dream like the Joneses across the street with total disregard for the dollar .This is another example of total madness and wasted and over indulgent and all over a pair of dirty shoes. 
http://start.att.net/news/read/arti...ns_1984_olympics_sneakers_break_aucti-rspnews


----------



## bkt

readytogo said:


> No respect for money ,we have lost it we just work hard and spend it ,with the lost of our elders and their ways our new generation has no clue of what`s ahead ,many keep commercialism alive and well many live in a dream like the Joneses across the street with total disregard for the dollar .This is another example of total madness and wasted and over indulgent and all over a pair of dirty shoes.
> http://start.att.net/news/read/arti...ns_1984_olympics_sneakers_break_aucti-rspnews


The good news is not everyone is as you describe. The folks here, for example, are not. Plenty of other preppers are not. Where there's sanity, there's hope.


----------



## Pessimistic2

bkt said:


> The good news is not everyone is as you describe. The folks here, for example, are not. Plenty of other preppers are not. Where there's sanity, there's hope.


According to the Gallup polls, for whatever they might be worth.....:dunno::dunno:

January 2017: http://www.gallup.com/poll/201152/conservative-liberal-gap-continues-narrow-tuesday.aspx

Excerpt: "36% of Americans now conservative, 25% liberal.
Liberal figure has inched up from 17% in 1990s.
Conservatives mainly steady, while moderates declined. Since Gallup began routinely measuring Americans' political ideology in 1992, conservative identification has varied between 36% and 40%. *At the same time, there has been a clear increase in the percentage identifying as politically liberal, from 17% to 25%*. This has been accompanied by a corresponding decrease in the percentage identifying as "moderate," from 43% to 34%."

January 2015: http://www.gallup.com/poll/180452/liberals-record-trail-conservatives.aspx

Excerpt: "Conservatives remain largest ideological group, at 38%.
Liberals up one point to 24%, the highest yet.
Conservative-liberal gap now smallest in Gallup trends. The one-point uptick in the percentage liberal in 2014 stems from one-point increases in liberal self-identification among both independents and Democrats. The small percentage of Republicans identifying as liberals stayed the same. Longer term, *since 2000, all of the rise in liberalism on this measure is owing to Democrats.*"


----------



## readytogo

I don`t have silver or gold and I couldn't`t care less about them ,I do own a hell of a cooking set in good old American cast iron ,is very hard to cook in gold or used it as a weapon folks .People today are so deep up there butts in technology that they don`t have any money saved for a flat tire or battery ,my grandmother would be turning over in her grave if she saw me buying groceries with a credit card and now days is very common to do this ,hell people around here don`t even drive to the store anymore , pickup the fancy cell phone and have your groceries delivered,at a cost so is no wonder the majority of Americans today don`t have any emergency savings ,hell many today have to work pass their retirement age just to pay for that fancy Caddy they just bought ,now you tell me why would an 80 year old person be driving a new Caddy at that age and working as a bagger at Publix to boot .Many from my job have drop dead right after retirement ,collecting one or two checks just to payoff a new car or a expensive vacation ,I knew one who remodel the house just to drop dead after it ,not been able to enjoy it .As a nation many need to re-think their spending habit's or they will be creating their own shtf situations.
A Quarter Of Americans Don't Even Have A Dollar Saved For Emergencies
http://www.rttnews.com/story.aspx?Id=2786013


----------



## terri9630

Many people enjoy working. Being around people. Why should it matter how old you are when you buy a car or remodel your house? Old people have a right to have nice things if they can afford them. No point living in a dump. After all you may die tomorrow or in 15 years.


----------



## AmishHeart

Exactly. My mom is 84. Saved her life in California by rescuing her from the dementia home and taking her off the drugs that made her appear to have dementia. She now has her life and her money. She's got alot of living to do still. And I'm glad she has the means to do what she wants as well. I hope she spends it all before she goes. My grandma's cousin just passed this year, and she was 105. Still coherent till the end.


----------



## Starcreek

AmishHeart said:


> Exactly. My mom is 84. Saved her life in California by rescuing her from the dementia home and taking her off the drugs that made her appear to have dementia. She now has her life and her money. She's got alot of living to do still. And I'm glad she has the means to do what she wants as well. I hope she spends it all before she goes. My grandma's cousin just passed this year, and she was 105. Still coherent till the end.


My grandmother's cousin, Cora, lived to 103. We went to visit her when she was around 101, and even though she was blind and stone deaf, she figured out who my Mom was, and grabbed her hand and cried, "Is it Polly? Is this my Polly?"

I'm glad you rescued your mother. Life doesn't end when most of us expect it. People live a lot longer when they are with people that love them and not spending a lot of time with doctors and medications.


----------



## readytogo

The facts don`t lie more people today are practically broke than ever before ,it does no go to work till you drop dead and keep paying mortgage or car payments and then turn around and pass the blame to the government ,I see this everyday ,and in reality not to many people enjoy working ,who wants to work a life time and not enjoy life ,the key here is to work save and retired without the burden of bills ,many yes like to work till they drop dead and then what ,no life no enjoyment ,those individuals are a few ,many I have spoken too work because they can`t afford to quit ,is either the new truck/car or a home full of mortgages ,no life whatsoever .You worked all your life to have nothing that you can call your own is totally ludicrous ,many claim that they are not willing to sacrifice their standards of living ,so they work and pay and for what ,a new truck, car , TV ,land somewhere in the hills they can even enjoy it because all the work ,come on lets be real .Greed and gluttony will killed you just as sure as a heart attack .The point here is that people today don`t saved as much as they should and all they do is complain about the economy.


----------



## Pessimistic2

AmishHeart said:


> Exactly. My mom is 84. Saved her life in California by rescuing her from the dementia home and taking her off the drugs that made her appear to have dementia. She now has her life and her money. She's got alot of living to do still. And I'm glad she has the means to do what she wants as well. I hope she spends it all before she goes. My grandma's cousin just passed this year, and she was 105. Still coherent till the end.


One Grandfather (my Father's Dad) made it to 104, got killed in a car wreck....was healthy as a horse until then! No telling how long he would have lived, had he not gotten t-boned by some drunk running a stop sign.

BTW...the drunk did get a vehicular homicide charge, but received only an "indeterminate sentence of 1 - 5 years." I don't know how much time he actually served.


----------



## terri9630

readytogo said:


> The facts don`t lie more people today are practically broke than ever before ,it does no go to work till you drop dead and keep paying mortgage or car payments and then turn around and pass the blame to the government ,I see this everyday ,and in reality not to many people enjoy working ,who wants to work a life time and not enjoy life ,the key here is to work save and retired without the burden of bills ,many yes like to work till they drop dead and then what ,no life no enjoyment ,those individuals are a few ,many I have spoken too work because they can`t afford to quit ,is either the new truck/car or a home full of mortgages ,no life whatsoever .You worked all your life to have nothing that you can call your own is totally ludicrous ,many claim that they are not willing to sacrifice their standards of living ,so they work and pay and for what ,a new truck, car , TV ,land somewhere in the hills they can even enjoy it because all the work ,come on lets be real .Greed and gluttony will killed you just as sure as a heart attack .The point here is that people today don`t saved as much as they should and all they do is complain about the economy.


It's their choice. No point in complaining about what you think is a pointless life. They may enjoy that life style. I won't live in the country for almost the same reason my brother won't live "in the sticks".


----------



## readytogo

There are three Wal-Mart's around me and also three brand new Publix Supermarkets to include Bj`s ,Coscos`s and Sam`s ,the area is really growing even our local college and university is adding buildings and dormitories ,kids and traffic .But in all this big work places you see a large percentage of workers up in age ,some are retired and working part time ,not to overpass the SSA allowed wages they tell me .At the auto parts store and tire shop I frequent the managers tells me that he had problems with kids not been responsible enough or not wanting to learn the trade ,my good friend owns a well establish engine rebuild and mechanic shop ,been around 30 plus years ,he`s 78 ,and even his son has left ,one of his mechanics is also a machinist and has tried to teach his son's too ,to no veil ,and this little shop is a gold mine .I wish I was younger because I loved tools. But here you see a situation where older citizens are working more ,employers actually want them ,and our kids, been their own fault or market situations are left out .As a teenager here in the USA I loved a pocket full of dollars ,hell I even pay house bills and help my father out and had my own bank account ,I wanted to work and learn .But I guess those times have change and whether is the new generation or times ,we do see the results of it in more ways than one .Even now in summer kids are somewhere else rather than working and saving for college or a 63 Ford Falcon.


----------



## phideaux

My observations, relating to your post RTG is this.....

The generation behind me just don't want to work. They don't have to. 

Then, the next generation behind them don't know how to do anything, and will never work.

Now where is that gonna leave this great nation .....in just a few more years.

My honest observation , and I ain't blind, got 20/20 vision.


Jim

Yeah,yeah....I know there are exceptions...but not many.


----------



## Pessimistic2

phideaux said:


> My observations, relating to your post RTG is this.....The generation behind me just don't want to work. They don't have to.  Then, the next generation behind them don't know how to do anything, and will never work. Now where is that gonna leave this great nation .....in just a few more years. My honest observation , and I ain't blind, got 20/20 vision.
> Jim
> Yeah,yeah....I know there are exceptions...but not many.


Yes, and THIS is exactly why a SHTF situation is flatly guaranteed somewhere down the road.....THOSE *"know nothing/do nothing generations"* are going to be the ones running the show in another, what, 15-20 years? No longer a question of *IF* there will ever be a SHTF breakdown in Society, the only question now is *WHEN* will it happen!!:scratch


----------



## DrPrepper

readytogo said:


> in reality not to many people enjoy working ,who wants to work a life time and not enjoy life ,the key here is to work save and retired without the burden of bills ,many yes like to work till they drop dead and then what ,no life no enjoyment ,those individuals are a few


You talk about work as though it is a bad thing. There are many of us who enjoy what we do, and who look forward to going to work every day. I love my work, and I get far more satisfaction from what I do every day than if I was just sitting around at home- even with my bills paid. My life enjoyment is grounded in the work I do - and then the other things (cooking, going to the range, reading, etc) are just the icing on the cake.


----------



## RedBeard

I generally don't work for a living i work to survive. People think im lieing when i tell them how little we spend in a year. So i dont have to make as much and i can focus on our farm and putting up food. Get to raise my daughter too! People tend to forget that all the cool crap we have today is nothing more than a luxury and in fact its not a necessity. But hey that's what makes the world turn i guess.


----------



## Pessimistic2

RedBeard said:


> I generally don't work for a living i work to survive. People think im lieing when i tell them how little we spend in a year. So i dont have to make as much and i can focus on our farm and putting up food. Get to raise my daughter too! People tend to forget that all the cool crap we have today is nothing more than a luxury and in fact its not a necessity. But hey that's what makes the world turn i guess.


Been a long time ago, but when we lived on the farm, we spent hardly anything on "store bought stuff." Salt, flour, condiments that Grandma didn't grow in the garden, etc. Was no buying *meat, eggs, milk, vegetables, and the like.* It wasn't that we were "poor," we weren't, but we just didn't *NEED* that stuff! And that doesn't even include all the things that came out of the "woods, or lake!" Poke greens, mushrooms, wild onions, squirrels, groundhogs, '*****, muskrat, rabbits, catfish, Bluegille, Perch, hell, I could go on for pages! Trapping was one of MY jobs as a kid....muskrat, mink & weasels, '*****, fox (foxes are SMART, didn't get many of them!), rabbits, you name it. Muskrat, '****, mink, rabbits, and fox brought in a fair amount for my spending...was no such thing as an "allowance!!" Like I said before, I sure do miss that farm!!


----------



## readytogo

At 92 years old you can`t do nothing but admired her, my friend’s wife is a beautiful lady ,one sister is 98 and the other one 95.So we sat there and talk about everything ,today it was money and people she points out the way people wasted money or expended on junk. Why is it that the average household worries about the stock market when they don`t have a pot to piss in she said`s, all the money goes to potato chips and sodas, cell phones and new cars so why the stock market or the price of gold or the dollar, it makes no difference to the average idiot out there she said`s .Many today complain about the cost of milk or eggs not the fancy cell phone the kid is playing with or all the chips and sodas he drinks and eats in a day ,is no wonder the kid has the attention span of a bumble bee or less ,she said`s .Growing up in Kentucky they all learn the value of a chicken and taking a apple pie to your neighbor`s for a 4th of July celebration was really appreciated ,not the store made junk that people take now days. Houses in her neighborhood are up in the half million plus mark ,houses made of cardboard that only a few years ago sold for $100,000 or less ,is no wonder the dollar is a joke now days ,she said`s ,there is no respect for it anymore ,young professionals instead of saving for a home blow it in a car and fancy living ,moving back in with their parents. She wants to moved back to Kentucky but he hates the cold, they are both with health issues but she wants to be with her family, they don`t like it here, bunch of flimflammers here in Miami they said, so I learn a lot today we talk about many other issues but mainly a real life lesson from someone who has really lived it.


----------



## AmishHeart

A stock market crash would make a difference to the average junk food buyer/money waster. Even if they don't invest in stocks, our economy would collapse.


----------



## readytogo

*Great Statement*



RedBeard said:


> I generally don't work for a living i work to survive. People think im lieing when i tell them how little we spend in a year. So i dont have to make as much and i can focus on our farm and putting up food. Get to raise my daughter too! People tend to forget that all the cool crap we have today is nothing more than a luxury and in fact its not a necessity. But hey that's what makes the world turn i guess.


Everybody should read this words by RedBeard .Many get caught in commercialism many lived in a fantasy world many will tell you that that`s the American way and is democracy at its best but that`s all crap ,we haven`t learn anything from our ancestors ,the simple stress free lifestyle is gone because we all or many like to have more than they can afford ,is like gluttony ,we eat more with our eyes than our mouth and we get in trouble then blame the Gov. or the neighbors .My neighbor pay her electric bill last month, $350.00 ,she had me call the power company claiming that it was a mistake ,well I had to explain to her that while she`s seating outside smoking three TV's are on, the ac is set at 65, lights are on all over the house, the electric dryer is on with nothing more than a towel in it and the washer is running with nothing more than a set of sheets .Life is what you make of it we dig our own graves ,I fail to see the need for more when the little I have is plenty enough.


----------



## Tirediron

People don't learn much from their ancestors, when left leaning teachers raise them until they know every thing and then move out into the world to discover things aren't so utopian. to mask this they get caught up in the have more than your neighbor game and wall street profits as they sink in debt.

It really bother people that I don't care how big their payments are, and really bothers them that I don't have any.


----------



## tmttactical

Tirediron said:


> People don't learn much from their ancestors, when left leaning teachers raise them until they know every thing and then move out into the world to discover things aren't so utopian. to mask this they get caught up in the have more than your neighbor game and wall street profits as they sink in debt.
> 
> It really bother people that I don't care how big their payments are, and really bothers them that I don't have any.


I don't have that problem, I don't talk to people. Most don't have anything to say, I care to hear. SIASD is rampant in this world and I choose to ignore all that I don't have to talk with. The art of chit-chat has always escaped me. Same something relevant or keep quiet.


----------



## RedBeard

My dad always told me dont be a payment head! Had a payment on a car once. Right after the warranty ran out motor popped. Never again! Only payment i have now is my mortgage and that's almost done, can't wait! All ill have afyer that is paying uncle sam the rent for using land that is supposedly mine...


----------



## Oomingmak

RedBeard said:


> My dad always told me dont be a payment head! Had a payment on a car once. Right after the warranty ran out motor popped. Never again! Only payment i have now is my mortgage and that's almost done, can't wait! All ill have afyer that is paying uncle sam the rent for using land that is supposedly mine...


Could not agree more. People get so caught up in having to have new this and new that. The system allows them to get mortgaged and loaned up to their ears. They want everyone like that to keep them strapped in and forced to play the game to a slave to financial institutions and gov't. Everything is designed to make you not only WANT things, like a new car, but to make you think you NEED these things.

People are routinely signing up for vehicle loans now that are 7 YEARS!!! That is nuts!!!

I always tell friends to quit playing the game. Get out from under the loans for vehicles and expensive toys like bass boats and holiday trailers or motorhomes. 
Toys that you only use a couple weeks of the year and the rest of the time sit in the yard depreciating.

The very few that have taken the advice to heart said they could not believe how much better their day to day lives were when they got out of debt, with a huge drop in the stress level. Everything about the current system our society pushes down our throats is designed to keep your nose to the grindstone paying the taxes and being bled by the bankers.

Quit playing the game.


----------



## Pessimistic2

Oomingmak said:


> Could not agree more. People get so caught up in having to have new this and new that. The system allows them to get mortgaged and loaned up to their ears. They want everyone like that to keep them strapped in and forced to play the game to a slave to financial institutions and gov't. Everything is designed to make you not only WANT things, like a new car, but to make you think you NEED these things.
> People are routinely signing up for vehicle loans now that are 7 YEARS!!! That is nuts!!! I always tell friends to quit playing the game. Get out from under the loans for vehicles and expensive toys like bass boats and holiday trailers or motorhomes. Toys that you only use a couple weeks of the year and the rest of the time sit in the yard depreciating. The very few that have taken the advice to heart said they could not believe how much better their day to day lives were when they got out of debt, with a huge drop in the stress level. Everything about the current system our society pushes down our throats is designed to keep your nose to the grindstone paying the taxes and being bled by the bankers. Quit playing the game.


If you "add up" all the interest/finance charges on the "installment plans," whether mortgages, new cars, furniture, credit cards, *whatever,* you will find that you have just pizzed away 20%, or more, of your income, over your lifetime. And most people never think of this at all. Hell, MOST people don't even realize that $300,000 home, financed for 30 years @ 8%, is gonna cost them over $600,000 by the time the mortgage is paid off, and never mind the property taxes, maintenance/repairs, homeowners insurance, lawn service, etc.!


----------



## readytogo

In a prepared society is primal to be inform about our surroundings our weather our nasty neighbors , many place politics at the top and in all actuality it matters very little in our survival more important is our financial situation our outflow and intake of money ,many take this for granted .On a resent post the cost of milk was discuss well is not milk alone that is important in our everyday survival ,if we take the time as I did in my household to figure out our priorities our needs and not so needed items you could be in a world of surprises .Food ,water ,shelter ,transportation are priorities everybody needs the quality or value of those things depends on how we look at them or how important they makes us feel or how far our egotistical ego takes us. There are many things we can do in the kitchen to saved money same goes for our thermostat settings or our driving habits , how many times we keep driving to the store ,many ways to saved money .We all need to trim our expending's and probably the cost of milk wouldn`t be an issue.


----------



## readytogo

Ok so NJ is broke but that`s normal ,waste, mismanagement and probably corruption, just like in the good old days of Operation Bid Rig.
Jersey: The Most Politically Corrupt Place on Earth
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Jersey-The-Most-Politically-Corrupt-Place-on-Earth.html
The List: A Rogues Gallery of the 15 Most Corrupt Politicians in NJ History
http://www.njspotlight.com/stories/...he-15-most-corrupt-politicians-in-nj-history/
This is very sad for the USA especially on its birthday.


----------



## AmishHeart

Jersey is a mess. But so is Chicago and Detroit..both ruined by socialist/communistic thieves.


----------



## tmttactical

AmishHeart said:


> Jersey is a mess. But so is Chicago and Detroit..both ruined by socialist/communistic thieves.


I don't think RTG or anybody else can name a city under Liberal / Democratic control that is not a mess. Over spending and unfunded pension will break them all eventually. Tax spend repeat until the workers have all moved out and there is nobody left to tax. When the tax money starts to run out, they will cut the police and fire dept. Spend for votes, the only principal they follow.


----------



## readytogo

Many loved top play the political game hell this game has been play since Cicero`s time ,the Roman Empire collapse the Incas collapse and many more advance civilizations have disappear ,we had our Great Depression which nobody learn anything from it our 2008 Clinton collapse that cause many to committed Seppuku and many will continue to practice this honorable tradition very soon .The facts are that the political game like the race game have fail to solved the issues plaguing our society today. Our system of government pays to wasted it encourages it pays farmers not to grow food gives tax credit for wasted food .Money from the capitol flows down to cities and its misspend and corrupted in useless programs and grants ,there its no government oversight no control our leaders are allowed to seat in office for generations and nobody notice that nothing never gets fix ,we have the political parties so far up our butts that is clouding our minds and while the rest of the industrialize world is getting better we keep fighting Lincoln's war, we are so divided is pitiful .Tiny little countries with social health care ,education systems that have a higher rate of learning that makes this country look like a banana republic but we seat around blaming the liberals or democrats or republicans or the independents or the communist or the evil media ,hell we actually look like fools in the eyes of the world .We have a president now that has lie blame criticize everybody even the nation he spends half his time on his tweeter account blaming the world for his stupidity .No prolong war has never benefited a nation ,the Bush war has cost this country better roads bridges better schools a complete health care system housing for the poor and veterans better job training in new technology for cleaner energy ,even our communist friends are investing on it ,hell is sad .Call me a communist or socialist but reality is out there ,we keep posting about Puerto Rico or Venezuela or Cuba but we have problems next door hell in our own living rooms ,we just don`t want to see them .
Cost of National Security
https://www.nationalpriorities.org/cost-of/
Ranking the States by Fiscal Condition 2016 
https://www.mercatus.org/statefiscalrankings
But again this could all be the evil media or a Walt Disney creation .


----------



## terri9630

readytogo said:


> we had our Great Depression which nobody learn anything from it our 2008 Clinton collapse that cause many to committed Seppuku and many will continue to practice this honorable tradition very soon .


Suicide is never honorable. You just cause pain and misery to your family.


----------



## readytogo

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Federal Reserve said Friday it expects the U.S. economy will strengthen and warrant further gradual increases in its key interest rate. So with 3 more hikes expected for next year the average consumer will pay more and if you have a variable interest loan ,wow be ready to sell your gold or silver ,even that new Ford truck will cost you more even after you didn't get a pay raise ,so saved your money.


----------

