# Self sustaining.



## Sybil6

How can I take a home and make it electrical but 100% off the grid and self sustaining? And which form would be the best for a farm that can support its habitants? I was thinking solar power but apparently solar panels are weak to storms and easy to damage. Hydroelectricity? What else? Any ideas?


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## cowboyhermit

Sybil6 said:


> How can I take a home and make it electrical but 100% off the grid and self sustaining? And which form would be the best for a farm that can support its habitants? I was thinking solar power but apparently solar panels are weak to storms and easy to damage. Hydroelectricity? What else? Any ideas?


If you want to have electric everything it is not going to be easy or inexpensive (heating and cooling take a very large amount of power). If you want to run lights, some electronics and a fridge then it is not so bad.

Full size solar panels are not weak and easy to damage, I have maintained many solar systems for years and failures are incredibly rare. I have seen gunshot panels still functioning at reduced output years later.

Wind and hydro are great if you have the resources and want to tinker or invest a ton of money. Wood gasification is actually sustainable but a constant undertaking. Solar panels are incredibly cheap these days and very reliable so for most people they are the way to go.


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## crabapple

Hydroelectricity?
Do you have running water?


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## Caribou

Each location has its own best system. A place with little sun or heavy snow might not do well with solar. Hydro only works is you have enough water and enough drop in elevation. Wind mills require a mast significantly above any buildings or trees and a reliably windy area. Fuel driven generators require adequate fuel. My best guess is that a combination of electrical sources and a battery bank will turn out to be the most reliable.


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## Sybil6

cowboyhermit said:


> If you want to have electric everything it is not going to be easy or inexpensive (heating and cooling take a very large amount of power). If you want to run lights, some electronics and a fridge then it is not so bad. Full size solar panels are not weak and easy to damage, I have maintained many solar systems for years and failures are incredibly rare. I have seen gunshot panels still functioning at reduced output years later. Wind and hydro are great if you have the resources and want to tinker or invest a ton of money. Wood gasification is actually sustainable but a constant undertaking. Solar panels are incredibly cheap these days and very reliable so for most people they are the way to go.


I don't want much besides an icebox/fridge, minimal lighting, wood stove heater, minimal AC, and maybe a small amount of electrical items. Thanks so much for this advice!


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## Sybil6

Running water is also present but it's very small and can run dry for a few days every now and then.


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## Caribou

Sybil6 said:


> Running water is also present but it's very small and can run dry for a few days every now and then.


That eliminates hydro as an option. Is there a place to put a wind powered generator? Is there a good site for solar panels?


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## Sybil6

Caribou said:


> That eliminates hydro as an option. Is there a place to put a wind powered generator? Is there a good site for solar panels?


Yes and yes! I was thinking of maybe a combination? But then I was thinking that the combo might be overkill.


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## readytogo

How many hours of Sun you have in your area, you need this for the calculation of solar power/battery charging. Also your average daily wind speed for wind turbines power. The most practical rule is; less electrical appliances the better, any heat producing appliance will consume many kwph,you may have to combine natural gas/propane/kerosene/wood in order to have a go at it or spend lots of money in a total off grid system for all your wants not needs.


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## Caribou

Sybil6 said:


> Yes and yes! I was thinking of maybe a combination? But then I was thinking that the combo might be overkill.


Overkill is good. The wind blows at night too. When it is cloudy and stormy the solar panel is producing less and the wind generator is producing more. On that beautiful summer day when you wish there was enough wind to keep the mosquitos away, the solar panel takes the load.

On my sailboat I have a solar panel, a wind generator, and a towed generator. A towed generator is a generator attached to the taft rail, on the stern of the boat. A rope is attached to both the generator and a propeller. When the propeller is thrown overboard the propeller spins the generator anytime the boat is moving.

My point is this, multiple sources are important. The sun goes down, the wind stops, or something breaks. Redundancy in your systems is important. You might also want to consider a small gasoline/propane generator to add to the mix.


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## Jerry D Young

A few thoughts on the OP questions:

Power system:

6kw solar/7.5 kw wind/ 12.5kw generator/2x 2,430amp/hr 48v battery banks ~ $200,000

20 Sunpower E/20 327w/48v photo-voltaic panel (also 435 watt)(41.2"x61.4" 17.6sqft)
1 inverter package Xantrex/Trace XW6048 120/240vac/50v input 6,000 watt
1 XW Power Distribution Panel 865-1015
1 XW Conduit Box 865-1025
1 XW-MPPT-60-150V Charge Controller
1 XW System Control Panel 865-1050
1 XW Automatic Generator Start 865-1060
1 XW Communications Gateway
1 XW6048 120/240-60 accessories
24 Battery bank #1 – Surrette 2-YS-31PS 2,430 amp/hr 2v x 24
24 Battery bank #2 – Surrette 2-YS-31PS 2,430 amp/hr 2v x 24
1 Wind turbine 7.5kw/48v - Bergey WindPower's BWC Excel-R/48
1 100' guyed tilt-over tower for Bergey BWC Excel-R/48
1 tower erecting kit
1 Generator #1 - 12.5kw, 120/240vac - Isuzu enclosed model
1 10,000 gallon diesel tank

An 80 acre homestead, if the ground is good and there is irrigation water available, can produce enough food (~2,000 pounds per person), including grains, vegetables, perennial vegetables, garden ground fruits, perennial ground fruits, tree fruits, tree and bush nuts, meat/eggs (beef, pork, turkey, chicken), sugars (sugar beets), fats/oils (canola), and dairy to feed 5 people and have some excess for sale, barter, or trade.

In addition, enough grain, hay, and pasture to feed the animals year round, and 700 gallons of bio-diesel, and cotton for clothing can be grown. And that includes one-fourth of the crop land to lie fallow every year so crops can be rotated. Even sheep could be raised for wool. There would be room for 20 acre coppicing woodlot to produce up to twenty cords of wood per year. Plenty of room for a pond, the house & yard, the barns, and roads & fence rows for erosion protection.

And another 80 acres and you could also grow some commercial crops for income generation.

Remember, this is on good fertile ground with irrigation. Lesser land would require more acreage to produce the same.

Just my opinion.


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## hiwall

solar is the easiest and most trouble free. if you live in the east then its maybe a harder decision as you get more cloudy days.


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## eddy_dvyvan

If your doing this to save money long term keep in mind you will be lucky to break even. Batteries will be required no matter which option you choose and will need replacing at BEST every 10 years.

And your power needs dont appear small. AC will chew the power. Focus on ways to reduce power consumption first and finding alternative means of doing tasks. Eg house design to reduce AC load.

Once you have your power usage down to the minimum you can stand then design your offgrid system


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## dixiemama

Natural gas? We have picked out (but not bought) a natural gas generator to run our whole house. At $8 per thousand, its a lot cheaper than our power bill in the long run. 

Our air conditioner has an economy setting that runs almost like a heat pump--it shuts off when it senses the room at the correct temp. With ceiling fans to move the air, we stay very comfortable. We heat/cook with gas already.


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## Sybil6

I'm not putting anything into action just yet. And I don't intend to use AC constantly. I would only push it to use on days about 80 and above. Usually the place stays comfortable. We do have a wood heater too, so heating and air conditioning won't be as huge as an impact as most of you are assuming. I do like the ideas I'm hearing though. We get sunlight from 8 a.m. to 6 or 7 p.m. and a good breeze during the winter days and nights. I think wind and sun would be my best bet with back up wood burning and gas generators. That seems to be my best bet, comparing all the things everyone has told.


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## BillS

readytogo said:


> How many hours of Sun you have in your area, .


Everybody gets the same amount of sun over the course of the year. The further north you go the longer the summer days and shorter the winter days. Our longest day is about 15 1/2 hours. The shortest day about 9 hours.

The most important measurements would be the latitude of where you live and how many sunny days you average for the year. We live at 44º and average 189 sunny days a year. Not too practical for NE Wisconsin except for when the days are long.


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## Sybil6

Solar would be good for us since we live in north GA. There're solar panels everywhere. But the house has a pointed roof. So morning rays hit on side only and evening rays hit another. Should we install them on both sides?


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## Caribou

Sybil6 said:


> Solar would be good for us since we live in north GA. There're solar panels everywhere. But the house has a pointed roof. So morning rays hit on side only and evening rays hit another. Should we install them on both sides?


I would build a framework in an appropriate spot or build a shed with the roof oriented properly.

You might also consider a covered porch or addition to the house at the sunny end. This would help keep the sun off the sunny end of the house.


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## hiwall

With solar it can be complicated if you want.
To get 100 watts out of a 100 watt panel it must be pointing directly at the sun all the time, any deviation from that lowers the output. Mounted on poles with tracking gives the best output. Most just put on south facing sloped roofs but you have to accept the reduced output. Facing east or west would severely reduce output.


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## Tex

The other option for aiming your panels at the sun are trackers. You mount the panels on a pole with 1 or 2 pivoting axis. The tracker continuously reposition your panels to face the sun and maximize your energy production.

There are different types of solar panels. Some will put out more watts/spare foot. Others will be more efficient with indirect sunlight and lend themselves to roof tops or other fixed locations. 

If you are building your home and just planning ahead, plan first for super energy efficiency. Insulate walls, plan overhangs, natural airflow, window placement etc..... You might be able to install solar panels as your roof to save money on construction costs. Plan on a room or outside building to house all of your power equipment, disconnects, and switching. Get rid of ghost loads with switched outlets. You have a lot of work to do if you want to be efficient.


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## Sybil6

Thanks guys, this has definitely made changes to my blueprints.


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## Sybil6

mike_dippert said:


> When I build my house, I'm building in NC to Minnesota insulation standards and incorporating plantation house cooling (large covered porches on the south, cross ventilation, nearby deciduous trees ). That should minimize HVAC usage year-round. As for the actual solar, I'm investigating 2-axis tracking on the southern roof. Basically, have a support grid to suspend each panel. A collection of motors will tilt each panel to track the sun for east/west movement as well as altitude. If my land is conducive for wind power, I'll integrate some of those upright turbines. I plan on being tied to the grid so my power distribution needs will differ from yours. But I also aim to be off-grid capable should the need arise. Hopefully I can give you some ideas. I plan on having two (at least) circuit panels. One for critical, always-on stuff. Another for as-needed stuff. When the grid is up, the whole house runs on public utility. When the grid is down, Panel 1 auto-switches to battery power. Panel 2 uses a manual switch for battery mode. My auto switching concept uses simple contactors (similar to automotive relays but used for high current and/or voltage) to sense grid power. They are very basic and extremely robust devices. I'll explain my desire for being on-grid. Being grid-tied allows me to conserve the batteries and trickle charge them until needed. It also allows me to backfeed my renewables into the grid, reducing or eliminating my utility bill. When the grid goes down, my renewables will also switch to battery charging instead of backfeeding. There's another technique I just thought of. Most utilities have peak/off-peak rates (based on demand at the plant). You can use battery/renewable power during the peak times, and only grid-charge them during off-peak times. You'd only be buying the cheaper off-peak power. The wear/tear costs on the batteries may not make this cost-effective though. It would definitely require research. I hope I've given you an idea or two, and that you are successful in your quest.


Thank you very much. This has greatly improved my blueprints.


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## LincTex

dixiemama said:


> Natural gas? We have picked out (but not bought) a natural gas generator to run our whole house. At $8 per thousand, its a lot cheaper than our power bill in the long run.


I don't know about that... Have you read the Onan technical manual for running a generator on natural gas?



> *T-015* ''Use of Gaseous Fuels With Onan Electric Plants'', and *T-019* ''Use Of Engine Fuels With Onan Electric Plants''.


The amount of BTU's used per hour by a generator is way higher than I think you were planning for. My Onan 5.0CCK will burn 100,000 BTUs per hour at full load - - That's a 5.0 KW generator. Can your supply line coming to your house handle that much flow?

Also, You pay $8 per "therm" (std. measurement for nat gas), correct?

1 therm = 99,976.129 BTU http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therm

Hmmm.... with my Onan 5.0CCK at those rates, looks like I would be about $8 per hour!!!! (That would be about right for gas or propane)

If you mean $8 per 1000 cubic feet (10 therms), then that would be $0.80 an hour, or about $20 a day (about $600 a month)... But that is only for a 5KW unit. If you move up to a 10KW (10,000 watts) then double all the numbers. If 15Kw (15,000 watts) then triple them.


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## eddy_dvyvan

LincTex said:


> I don't know about that... Have you read the Onan technical manual for running a generator on natural gas?
> 
> The amount of BTU's used per hour by a generator is way higher than I think you were planning for. My Onan 5.0CCK will burn 100,000 BTUs per hour at full load - - That's a 5.0 KW generator. Can your supply line coming to your house handle that much flow?
> 
> Also, You pay $8 per "therm" (std. measurement for nat gas), correct?
> 
> 1 therm = 99,976.129 BTU http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therm
> 
> Hmmm.... with my Onan 5.0CCK at those rates, looks like I would be about $8 per hour!!!! (That would be about right for gas or propane)
> 
> If you mean $8 per 1000 cubic feet (10 therms), then that would be $0.80 an hour, or about $20 a day (about $600 a month)... But that is only for a 5KW unit. If you move up to a 10KW (10,000 watts) then double all the numbers. If 15Kw (15,000 watts) then triple them.


Well said. And then there is servicing costs. And also the fact you need a second generator for when the primary is offline for service or replacing parts, doing a rebuild. I wonder how many hours runtime the generator averages before a complete rebuild


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## dixiemama

$8/thousand. Our power bill now is only $40/month

We haven't purchased one since we are deciding on which to get. My husband worked in the oil field for a number of years doing everything from drilling wells to hooking up generators for onsite offices. He is picking which is best for us. 

We wouldn't be running a full house all the time. I'm working to get away from our chest freezer so its not pulling power. The generator would mainly be for a fridge and a few lights. Our stove is gas as is our water heater.


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## eddy_dvyvan

dixiemama said:


> $8/thousand. Our power bill now is only $40/month
> 
> We haven't purchased one since we are deciding on which to get. My husband worked in the oil field for a number of years doing everything from drilling wells to hooking up generators for onsite offices. He is picking which is best for us.
> 
> We wouldn't be running a full house all the time. I'm working to get away from our chest freezer so its not pulling power. The generator would mainly be for a fridge and a few lights. Our stove is gas as is our water heater.


Sounds more like a small solar set up with a backup generator would be a better option. Would also be cheaper in the long run. Then just use the generator for topping batteries and running welders ect.

<Not sure if this applies to nat gas generators>. With diesel generators (maybe also natgas i think) they run best and most efficiantly at 70-80% capacity. This is why drill rigs use them. Constant high power load. lugging along a generator to power a few lights and a fridge would mean choosing a low power generator to get the efficancy. Which then becomes a problem when you need higher power for occasional loads.

Something to consider and look into

Also keep in mind a generator designed for primary power and not backup is alot more expensive. They are built to a much higher standard. Generally requiring a full rebuild every 25000 hours. 
Thats probobly a rebuild every 3 years. And then there is servicing every 3000 hours or so for oils/filters.


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## dixiemama

That's why hubs is in charge. I have NO idea on it other than what our bill is every month. I'm in charge of food and doing as much as I can off grid. Its what makes the generator so appealing. The gas well is on our property so we can protect it worst comes to worst and why I'm getting rid of the freezer.


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## eddy_dvyvan

dixiemama said:


> That's why hubs is in charge. I have NO idea on it other than what our bill is every month. I'm in charge of food and doing as much as I can off grid. Its what makes the generator so appealing. The gas well is on our property so we can protect it worst comes to worst and why I'm getting rid of the freezer.


Wow i wish i had a gas well on my property, thats awsome 

I know you can get nat gas/lpg fridges but can you get nat gas freezers?. This could be an option. It would be cheaper to use the gas in its first form rather than converting it to electricity then using it. And you would get to keep your freezer.

edit: turn outs you can
http://www.cnglacier.com/products_d...=comp-FrontProducts_list01-1379907299598.html


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## dixiemama

Ah the freezer is just a holding tank until I can get all of the contents either canned or dehydrated. The wall its on I can make into a big shelving unit :honeydolist:

It is nice having it here.


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## cnsper

You can also look into things like DC appliances that use less power than converting to AC. They make DC fridges and at any truck stop you can find things like coffee pots, crock pots etc.


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## LincTex

dixiemama said:


> Our power bill now is only $40/month
> 
> My husband is picking which is best for us.


Your electricity bill is exceptionally cheap!

Most NG units are "whole house" sized and are _quite_ large. Even when not making rated power, generators use a lot of fuel "just sitting there" while running at rated RPM.



eddy_dvyvan said:


> Sounds more like a small solar set up with a backup generator would be a better option. Would also be cheaper in the long run. Then just use the generator for topping batteries and running welders ect..


Absolutely.


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## dixiemama

The power company is a local co-op so we get pretty good rates. Plus, our house is only 800 sq. ft. so its not like we have tons of space. We don't have a HVAC, one window air conditioner and ceiling fans keep the house cool. If something isn't being used, its unplugged;washer/dryer included. 

My only concern with solar is the amount of cloud cover we have in fall/winter in my part of the state. During the winter its common to not see the sun or blue skies for up to a week or longer.


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## Sybil6

After all these comments, I have revised my plans somewhat. I do think that Mike was right in what he said, and he brings up a very valid point. 
So now, I think my plan is something of a combination. Solar panels on the east side of the roof of the house to catch morning sun, windmills in the fields (maybe two or so, more if the land is bigger than I expect), solar panels on the west side of the barn for evening sun, and one windmill connected to it (the only power it will need is stall lights for when we need access to the animals at night). Then I want a flat roof on the bunk houses (the rooms in which I will install bedding and storage places for those in my group. basically, a small house in my back yard) and have the entire roof covered in solar panels, trickle charging the batteries in the basement. Be on-grid, but not grid-reliant. So when SHTF, I can still have the electricity I need without HAVING to be on-grid. 
Any suggestions on this update so far?? (By the way, this isn't for the already owned BOL we have, this is for what I plan to build post-graduation when I settle down)


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## cnsper

solar arrays need to be sized according to the number of daylight hours and not just the wattage that you use. For instance if you only use 100 watts and put in a 100 watt panel, that will not be enough to supply you with your needs for the winter months.

As for wind power, if you are prepping, have plenty of spares. These will break and I have even seen the blades shatter into literally millions of pieces.

Solar panels will outlast wind turbines all day long but they do have their place.

The second thing to consider is the voltage. A 48 volt system will use less amperage than a 12 volt system. The batteries will last longer and you will need fewer of them. Also look into gel cell batteries. These are maintenance free and are used in all of the backup systems for telephone companies.


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## Tex

Sybil6 said:


> After all these comments, I have revised my plans somewhat. I do think that Mike was right in what he said, and he brings up a very valid point.
> So now, I think my plan is something of a combination. Solar panels on the east side of the roof of the house to catch morning sun, windmills in the fields (maybe two or so, more if the land is bigger than I expect), solar panels on the west side of the barn for evening sun, and one windmill connected to it (the only power it will need is stall lights for when we need access to the animals at night). Then I want a flat roof on the bunk houses (the rooms in which I will install bedding and storage places for those in my group. basically, a small house in my back yard) and have the entire roof covered in solar panels, trickle charging the batteries in the basement. Be on-grid, but not grid-reliant. So when SHTF, I can still have the electricity I need without HAVING to be on-grid.
> Any suggestions on this update so far?? (By the way, this isn't for the already owned BOL we have, this is for what I plan to build post-graduation when I settle down)


Solar panels are expensive. You want them in all day sun if possible. Having separate panels for morning and evening will be expensive. Face them South so they will get Sun all day. Direct in midday and indirect in morning and evening.


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## LincTex

cnsper said:


> A 48 volt system will use less amperage than a 12 volt system. The batteries will last longer and you will need fewer of them.


I can't agree with this statement. 
The size of a battery and the qty relate directly to "how much" energy can be stored.

Although you can save on wire size by going up in volts, battery size and qty doesn't change with system voltage. No matter how you wire them in (12/24/36/48) amp/hours is still amp/hours and that doesn't change with system voltage.



Tex said:


> Having separate panels for morning and evening will be expensive. Face them South so they will get Sun all day. Direct in midday and indirect in morning and evening.


There are a lot of solar tracker options available now-a-days. You can build your own circuit, or buy one of the ready-made-in-china ones. It will pay for itself very quickly with the extra energy harvested. There are some simple steel poles mounts that you can see online that can be made easily.


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## eddy_dvyvan

LincTex said:


> There are a lot of solar tracker options available now-a-days. You can build your own circuit, or buy one of the ready-made-in-china ones. It will pay for itself very quickly with the extra energy harvested. There are some simple steel poles mounts that you can see online that can be made easily.


When i looked at trackers it was more cost effective to just purchase extra panals to make up for the lack of tracking. Also less servicing costs/time. But if prices are cheaper over there then its something to definatly look at as it can boost your output by like 30%. But you have to weigh up the price of the trackers (+servicing/life cycle) vs the price of extra panals and see which works best


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## LincTex

eddy_dvyvan said:


> When i looked at trackers it was more cost effective to just purchase extra panels to make up for the lack of tracking. Also less servicing costs/time.


OK, then forget "automatic" tracking... at the very LEAST put them on an array of sorts that you can adjust them manually if you have to! You could have a lever with three settings: "morning", "noon", and "evening" or any number of additional nothcehes in between. You could have a notch for each hour of the day if you wanted to, and were able to be around to move it to the next notch every hour. Or you could just leave it in one location if you have no desire to move them often.

However, if the numbers don't lie, it really *IS* worth it to employ "some" sort of ability to perform solar "tracking".


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## cowboyhermit

I agree with LincTex about the voltage, the benefits of higher voltage is mainly less wire size needed to minimize line loss, the benefit of 12v is a huge variety of components at a competitive price.

With regards to tracking, you can get MUCH more power out of a panel with tracking, however this comes with a bit of a price. The automatic trackers are not cheap and often fail and both they and manual mounts may not be able to withstand the same wind and weather that the panels are up to. I have seen panels damaged by failed mounts
The majority of remote setups that I have worked on now have the most basic setup possible, panels mounted vertical and facing south (this can work because we are so far north). Basically they are setup for our highest demand time (when the batteries are cold and days are short), output is much reduced in the summer compared to an adjusted panel but there is no need for the power anyways because the system is sized for winter.


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## Sybil6

I've seen a set up at a place on the mountain where they have the panels positioned straight up, with mirrors based around the bottom of it so that each panel sat in a bowl of mirrors and the light would be reflected from around the panel, onto it. Would that work? Or is that just showy? 
So how much wattage do you think a house that is sparingly using the normal day to day things? Since I do want this house on-grid, I can use that to my advantage, right? Using the bills as a rough estimate of the wattage we use daily to give us an idea of what we would need after shtf, also taking into consideration that after shtf, the things that we'd be using day to day wouldn't be used, maybe even unplugged and thrown out altogether. As a child, I don't really have a firm grasp on what the average wattage a house would use. 
Do you guys think that you could pitch a rough number of what the minimum amount of wattage for a house like this would be?


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## hiwall

your electric bill shows how much you use each month. Everybody uses different. go by what it says on your bill.


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## LincTex

Sybil6 said:


> I've seen a set up at a place on the mountain where they have the panels positioned straight up, with mirrors based around the bottom of it so that each panel sat in a bowl of mirrors and the light would be reflected from around the panel, onto it. Would that work?


When you increase the light intensity on a focal point, you also reflect the same amount of heat.

I would say that set-up would work fantastic... until the panels melted.


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## Sybil6

Alright. So the mirror set up has the draw back of excess heat. If I did this and came up with a way of cooling the panels, wouldn't that increase the wattage I drew from each panel? 

And thanks for the tip on the energy bill. I've also been following another thread on the batteries and their up keeping, but what I've yet to learn is if the batteries lose charge if unused. If I charge one up, and don't use all of the energy stored, the unused would remain in the cell right??


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## eddy_dvyvan

Sybil6 said:


> Alright. So the mirror set up has the draw back of excess heat. If I did this and came up with a way of cooling the panels, wouldn't that increase the wattage I drew from each panel?
> 
> And thanks for the tip on the energy bill. I've also been following another thread on the batteries and their up keeping, but what I've yet to learn is if the batteries lose charge if unused. If I charge one up, and don't use all of the energy stored, the unused would remain in the cell right??


I personally wouldnt worry about the mirror set up. In hot areas a couple of people have seen an increase from cooling their panals but some of the gains were lost in powering a pump for the water.

Batteries will slowly lose their charge. Purchase your panals and an inverter capable of doing ongrid and offgrid. Then with the savings on your power bill save up for some batteries down the track. Batteries are getting cheaper and cheaper as more people switch to hybrid cars.

if you really have the time and want to play with your mirror and cooling idea why not pick up a multimeter and small solar panal and make a test rig. Then you can calculate what it has cost you and what you gained and wether it would be worth the investment on a larger scale. Be a good way to learn :beercheer:


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## Sybil6

eddy_dvyvan said:


> I personally wouldnt worry about the mirror set up. In hot areas a couple of people have seen an increase from cooling their panals but some of the gains were lost in powering a pump for the water. Batteries will slowly lose their charge. Purchase your panals and an inverter capable of doing ongrid and offgrid. Then with the savings on your power bill save up for some batteries down the track. Batteries are getting cheaper and cheaper as more people switch to hybrid cars. if you really have the time and want to play with your mirror and cooling idea why not pick up a multimeter and small solar panal and make a test rig. Then you can calculate what it has cost you and what you gained and wether it would be worth the investment on a larger scale. Be a good way to learn :beercheer:


I did intend on an inverter. Thanks for backing me up on that. Could I store back-up batteries as well and leave them unused without damage? I thought that if they stayed put for so long that they might go bad...


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## Caribou

Sybil6 said:


> I did intend on an inverter. Thanks for backing me up on that. Could I store back-up batteries as well and leave them unused without damage? I thought that if they stayed put for so long that they might go bad...


Lead acid batteries should be used. At the very least they should be kept charged. A lead acid battery that is allowed to sit in a discharged state will destroy itself. With multiple battery banks you are better off to switch around on a regular basis.


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## Cotton

Decades ago I saw several forms of capacitive charging in large self contained systems, in other countries. The "tell" is the huge capacitors and the close proximity to the battery bank. I tried to ask about these "devices" but the language barrier was to large.

Several years ago I stumbled across plans for a small build at home unit at
http://www.eagle-research.com/cms/node/235. By George Wiseman...

This is very efficient charging for lead acid batteries. It uses less than 50% of the power to charge a battery as a conventional charger would. Most importantly, the reason I built one, they can bring back heavily sulfated batteries. It will de-sulfate a battery. This design has only 4 components, simple to build.

Information on the net is hard to find. Here are a few on you tube being demonstrated. 



 or if you want to be a bit creative 



 both are Wiseman based designs.


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## hiwall

> Could I store back-up batteries as well and leave them unused without damage?


Yes if you bought them dry and left them dry they would last a mighty long time stored that way.
Win the lottery and buy Edison batteries they last 30 years or more.


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## Caribou

Here is an option. A capacitor battery bank should outlast a lead acid battery bank but you will pay for it up front.

http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=i:aps,k:capacitor battery


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## Tex

Use a mirror for your water heater, not for photovoltaics.


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## Sybil6

Thanks to all of you. This is great information and exactly what I was looking for! So what I'm understanding is that if I store batteries they don't need to be lead acid batteries and if they are I should rotate them to keep them from malfunctioning and destroying themselves. There is a way to use converters to promote reliable source of energy. Staying on grid is better for trickle charging batteries for solar electricity. Over kill is good. Batteries of certain brands last longer and are more durable than others. 

So I figure if I set up our house with enough wattage to completely support it, stay on grid, trickle charge the batteries and use electricity sparingly then in grid shutdowns we'd be set to go. Right? Especially so if we have rotating cells and non-lead acid based batteries. 

Did I get this all right?


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## LincTex

Sybil6 said:


> So I figure if I set up our house with enough wattage to completely support it, stay on grid, trickle charge the batteries and use electricity sparingly then in grid shutdowns we'd be set to go. Right? Especially so if we have rotating cells and non-lead acid based batteries. Did I get this all right?


Yep, pretty close! You should "unplug" from the grid occasionally and run on batteries alone from time to time so you have an idea of what can be used, and for how long before you go too low on battery charge.

If the grid goes down permanently, you would need enough charging capacity ("enough wattage to completely support it" from solar, wind, etc.) to get the batteries topped off again at regular intervals.


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## Sybil6

LincTex said:


> Yep, pretty close! You should "unplug" from the grid occasionally and run on batteries alone from time to time so you have an idea of what can be used, and for how long before you go too low on battery charge. If the grid goes down permanently, you would need enough charging capacity ("enough wattage to completely support it" from solar, wind, etc.) to get the batteries topped off again at regular intervals.


Great. I actually understand.


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## Caribou

Just to clarify, your lead/acid batteries need to be trickle charged or regularly brought to a full charge. Batteries and their maintenance is really a subject that is a bit broad for this format. You have received good information here but I suggest that you get a couple good books on batteries and 12 volt wiring. This is a good place to start and a good place to polish your studies but ….


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## LincTex

Caribou said:


> You have received good information here but I suggest that you get a couple good books on batteries and 12 volt wiring.


Safari search for this on the web: " living on 12 volts "

http://www.eiwellspring.org/offgrid/Living_on_12_volt_part2.pdf

http://www.amplepower.com/primer/primer.pdf

Not sure if you have the LDS manual - but it's a handy guide:
http://thesurvivalmom.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/LDS-Preparedness-Manual.pdf


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## Caribou

LincTex said:


> Safari search for this on the web: " living on 12 volts "
> 
> http://www.eiwellspring.org/offgrid/Living_on_12_volt_part2.pdf
> 
> http://www.amplepower.com/primer/primer.pdf
> 
> Not sure if you have the LDS manual - but it's a handy guide:
> http://thesurvivalmom.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/LDS-Preparedness-Manual.pdf


I'm not acquainted with these books but there are many good ones out there. Unfortunately mine are packed, I don't have a clue which box they are in, and I can't remember the titles.

Every year or so the LDS comes out with an updated Preparedness Manual. this gives me an excuse to reread it. I agree with you, there is a wealth of information in this book.


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## LincTex

Caribou said:


> I'm not acquainted with these books.....


these are all free to download


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## Sybil6

Thanks for the advice Caribou and the good reads Linctex. I'll definitely look around at the libraries around here too. And I've been looking through my brother'a engineering textbooks and it's helped some as well.


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