# How much HP is enough?



## smaj100 (Oct 17, 2012)

Guys, I am looking at buying a small utility tractor to move rnd hay bales, cut the pastures, till a garden and my food plots and general use around the small farm. We have 110 acres with 45 +/- in pastures and cleared for some small gardens n food plots.

My local Kubota dealer has some great package deals right now, my dilema is which model do I purchase? Both are identical in size and control and functionality one is a 32hp unit and the other is 38hp. The price difference is $1500 between the tractors. Is 6 hp really worth $1500 extra?, especially when I could spend that extra 1500 on other attachments or implements.

thanks
smaj100


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Imo no, 6hp wouldn't be worth much IF the rest of the specs are similar. I am curious what size of round bales you will be using, assuming that you will move them with the 3pt hitch what is it rated for.
We sometimes sell smaller bales to people with acreages for a premium and have seen them be disappointed when their brand new $$$ tractor is unable to move them, yet a 75-100hp tractor that could be picked up used for under $10000 in good shape handles ton bales easily.


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## AdmiralD7S (Dec 6, 2012)

cowboyhermit said:


> Imo no, 6hp wouldn't be worth much IF the rest of the specs are similar.


One thing I would draw out specifically is the weight. When I'm pulling up old posts or small trees/shrubs, my TO30 has the power to lift it. Sometimes, however, the "it" is the front end. I typically see tractor weights at $1/lb, so your $1500 increase might not be so bad if you're getting 300-400 pounds' worth of mass.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

AdmiralD7S said:


> Sometimes, however, the "it" is the front end.


Lol, almost as fun as lifting too much on an articulated loader and having you back tires in the air. Old tractors were notoriously light on the front end even without the 3pth but with manual steering that had it's advantages 
If it's just a matter of weight then adding to the front will definitely help but the lift capacity on a tractor should be spelled out in the manual, if spending the money on a new one you don't want to be exceeding capacities too much. A front end loader is great for weight on the front end and you can easily add extra temporarily.


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## PreparedRifleman73 (Nov 2, 2012)

You *MUST* watch/listen to 



. It will provide all the answers you need!


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

When I grew up on the farm we never had a tractor that even had 30 hp(the one we used the most was a 15hp).


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## d_saum (Jan 17, 2012)

hawkmiles said:


> You *MUST* watch/listen to ..... It will provide all the answers you need!


Ok... that was pretty dang awesome! :2thumb:


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## smaj100 (Oct 17, 2012)

Thanks guys for the input. I checked the specs and the 2 are identical in size, the 3800 weighs in 45lbs more than the 3200. I also noticed one other difference regarding the rear pto anyone can enlighten a youngen?

the 3200 is a transmission driven with overrunning, and the 3800 is live continuous running?

Weight wise on the loader max weight at max height is 855lbs up to 1400lbs at normal lift.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

Cowboy Hermit has a good point about a larger used tractor. I've been to farm sales and watched and old 9n Ford tractor go for $5,000 then a large IH(don't remember the model number) went for $2,000. The farmers weren't buying tractors but the suburbanites were. You have enough acreage to get a full size tractor that will do four times the work for half the price. You might think about shopping around a bit (just a suggestion!).


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## cedarguy (Nov 19, 2012)

smaj100 said:


> Thanks guys for the input. I checked the specs and the 2 are identical in size, the 3800 weighs in 45lbs more than the 3200. I also noticed one other difference regarding the rear pto anyone can enlighten a youngen?
> 
> the 3200 is a transmission driven with overrunning, and the 3800 is live continuous running?
> 
> Weight wise on the loader max weight at max height is 855lbs up to 1400lbs at normal lift.


Lets say you have a tiller attachment on the back of the tractor with live power. When you engage the pto the tiller will begin to turn even if you are sitting still which I like because Its easier to start tilling in a specific spot.

Now lets say you have the tiller attachment on the back of the tractor with the transmission driven pto (actually its clutch driven) when you engage the pto it will do nothing untill you engage the clutch (start moving). It could make certain jobs a little more difficult.

IMHO the additional $1500 would be worth it for live power, At least for me.


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

The live pto is much more important than the HP difference. I'd get the live pto even if it had the smaller motor and cost a bit more. It affects mowing too. Do you want the blade to slow or stop when you turn or use the brake? The blade speed would be linked to the wheel speed. If you get the meaning.

P.S. I never met the guy that said he wished he had a smaller tractor.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Leave it to machinery companies to never make a choice simple
The live pto is undoubtedly better, however the amount of difference will vary on what you are doing, trying to put that in dollar terms is really difficult. You certainly won't find yourself wishing for a transmission driven pto but they can handle most tasks adequately.

Although it is transmission driven, ground speed would have no effect on the pto speed unless it was a "ground speed" type and I highly doubt that. 

1400lbs is a pretty respectable lift weight, that would handle a good percentage of round bales in our area. In our area it isn't till the bales get around the 1000lb mark that the premiums get high, small squares can be double the price/lb, really big bales 1500lbs-a ton are often cheaper but the difference is not that much.


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## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

I'm with the previous posters that said you should look at a used, larger tractor. Ask anyone that has tractors in your size if they wish they had bought with more or less horsepower. Obviously, almost all would say they would like more HP.

A friend of mine just picked up a slightly used John Deere 5425 for less than what you'll pay for either of those new Kubota's. I think he paid low to mid $20-25K range.
Here's the specs:
2006 JOHN DEERE 5425
-4X4
-CAB, HEAT, AC
-570 HOURS
-81 ENGINE HP
-4 CYLINDER JD DIESEL W/TURBO
-COLD WEATHER PACKAGE
-65 PTO HP
-12X12 POWER REVERSER TRANSMISSION
-DUAL MID SCV'S W/JOYSTICK FOR LOADER
-DUAL REAR SCV'S
-2 ENTRY DOORS
-16.9-30 REAR TIRES @ 70%
-11.2-24 FRONT TIRES @ 50%
-EXTRA WORK LIGHT PACKAGE
-DELUXE TELESCOPIC LINKS
-STABILIZER BARS
-TOP LINK
-E HITCH CONTROLLER W/SWIRCH ON FENDER FOR EASY HOOK UPS
-TILT & TELESCOPIC WHEEL
-DELUXE EXTERIOR MIRRORS ON BOTH SIDES
-REARVIEW MIRROR
-REAR WIPER
-540/540E PTO
-DELUXE SUSPENSION SEAT W/ARM RESTS
-SUN VISOR
-RADIO


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## smaj100 (Oct 17, 2012)

again thanks all for the info definately worth doing some more looking into. Im not sure what are rnd bales weight that we get from our hay guy during the winter. I know I can roll em off the trailer and flip em to put inside the hay ring. I'll have to specifically ask if the tranny driven pto is "wheel driven" or how it works. I always thought it was better to have the rpm set at the right speed for most implements prior to digging or cutting in with them?


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

smaj100 said:


> I know I can roll em off the trailer and flip em to put inside the hay ring. I'll have to specifically ask if the tranny driven pto is "wheel driven" or how it works. I always thought it was better to have the rpm set at the right speed for most implements prior to digging or cutting in with them?


If you can flip them on end they are probably 1400lbs or under
I really doubt the pto is connected to ground speed but worth checking I suppose.
You are totally correct that it is usually best to have the implement at speed before starting work, that's why the live pto is best. There are ways of dealing with the transmission driven and at least it has an overspeed clutch so the implement can't push you after you stomp on the clutch


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## Jerry D Young (Jan 28, 2009)

The higher HP, Live PTO, and extra weight. 

I think 38hp is low for what you indicated you will be doing. 50hp up, but no more than 90hp. Light duty equipment will not last when overloaded regularly, especially heavily overloaded. A medium duty tractor will still be going for years when running at only 50% to 80% of rated capacity, with the ability to use the full capacity for those times when you need it. The tendency to really overload a lighter machine will be there, rather than borrowing or renting a larger machine for a while. 

Just my opinion.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

mosquitomountainman said:


> The farmers weren't buying tractors but the suburbanites were. You have enough acreage to get a full size tractor that will do four times the work for half the price. You might think about shopping around a bit (just a suggestion!).


Totally correct, same here in Texas. A 20HP John Deere with a FEL always brings $5000. I know of a nice Farmall 806 running propane with new rear tires (!) for about $2000.



Jerry D Young said:


> Light duty equipment will not last when overloaded regularly, especially heavily overloaded. A medium duty tractor will still be going for years when running at only 50% to 80% of rated capacity, with the ability to use the full capacity for those times when you need it. The tendency to really overload a lighter machine will be there, rather than borrowing or renting a larger machine for a while.


This is 100% correct. Just because a loader can lift 1400 lbs doesn't mean your front wheel bearings won't be hating life. Jerry is right, when you are always pushing the limit your tractor will puke on you eventually.

One guy near me had a 35HP Mahindra, and even though it would lift the bales he sold it and bought a 50HP Mahindra instead. He said he's 10 times happier with the larger tractor.

However, there are more ways than one to handle a large round bale. A loader is convenient, but not necessary.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Another important thing to think about on the new smaller tractors is if they are equipped with electronics, if they are they are usually brand specific and therefore it costs a lot to have the dealer do anything that involves the ECM, 

I wouldn't buy any new small tractor. if you get an older large tractor it will be able to do what you need easily and it won't depreciate much, tractors aren't like cars up until the last 20 years or so they were built to last. 
If you are doing PTO work live PTO is pretty much a must especially if you are getting something newer. A 3 point hitch bale spear is a lot more effective for getting around than an overloaded front end loader.

And don't get caught in the diesel hype for a tractor that will get under 200 hours a year.


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

Tirediron said:


> And don't get caught in the diesel hype for a tractor that will get under 200 hours a year.


Would you please flesh this out a bit more.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

A diesel costs more to buy, usually twice as much to service, hard to start in winter, wrong fuel can be catastrophic, running out of fuel can be a nightmare to get to restart. A gas tractor is usually cheaper, quieter if you put diesel in it, it starts to run poorly and won't re start, you drain it , put in fresh gas and go. For a small holder it usually means 1 fuel to look after.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Hold on there, my friend!

My Yanmar YM2000 was cheap to buy (broken pistons) and cheap to fix (used pistons) without any expensive tools. 

Hard to start in winter is an obstacle, but there are ways to make it easier.

Wrong fuel means someone had their head placed where it shouldn't be. 

Running out of fuel means "opening one bleeder screw"... but really, I have used the tractor all day and used half a tank. There isn't a lot of possibility of running out of fuel. See head placement comment again. This shouldn't be a deal beaker.

There are a lot of good gas tractors available as well. Propane tractors are selling for scrap price around here!!! 

A good diesel tractor is nothing to be afraid of, and will hold it's resale value forever. They really need so very little maintenance. I don't change the oil unless an oil analysis says to do so.... so I have never changed the oil!


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Oh yes.... I would at all costs avoid anything with electronics on it. 

I have 60 years old tractors still working, a brand new 2014 Deere/Kubota won't be running in 60 years due to planned obsolescence.


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

Good to see that there is some disagreement on the issue of diesels. Keep fighting boys because as you battle it out I learn more.

There have to be advantages to diesels. What are they?

The one aspect which appeals to me is that if gasoline supplies get disrupted I could use the products of a farm to make my own diesel. A big headache, sure, but that route is there if needed. How can I make gasoline?


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

There are advantages to both.

If you are working it long hours every day, the diesel will win. But, honestly - I wouldn't give up any of my tractors (God bless my wife!) and there are things I like about all of them. My tractors are toys as much as they are tools.

Bobbb, in your case, your just need to get one - any one, LOL!!!! PM your location and I'll give you some suggestions (per the other tractor thread).

But, I honestly love to "talk tractors" and can do it all day. They all have strengths in one way or another.


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

LincTex said:


> But, I honestly love to "talk tractors" and can do it all day. They all have strengths in one way or another.


Keep talkin'. I reading all that you guys write.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

The John Deere 850 diesel (Yanmar) I used to have used about 5 gallons of diesel - a YEAR. About the same with my YM2000. You can do a lot of farming/gardening with a small diesel compact tractor. Good diesel stored well lasts for years and years. Gasoline won't.

On the flip side, my Farmall C runs so smooth, you almost can't hear it run from 10 feet away idling. That fact warms me in some unexplainable way. Any of the "letter series" Farmall gas tractors are the easiest things in the world to start when it's -40*F. 

If you are like me, you will find things to like about all of them, and getting one leads to two, which leads to three....


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

There are very good reasons you won't find a semi running on gas, pretty hard to find any commercial trucks running on gasoline these days, same with 99% of heavy equipment. Over it's life cycle a good diesel (especially with sleeves) will win in terms of efficiency, maintenance, cost per hour, it will last much longer. There are some diesels that are not as robust and there are computer controlled diesel that come with their pros and cons but generally in a tractor we are talking about mechanical engines.

Gasoline wins on cold starting hands down, I can literally flip the hand crank on our old W6 (updraft carburetor) once or twice max and have him running in -20C, -40C might take an extra depending on type of oil and if I ate my wheaties. A diesel relies on heat for combustion so it just aint that easy, even with glowplugs.

I think Tirediron's point is that for a lot of people they are simply not going to be using the tractor enough for the differences to come into play. If you are going to put several thousand hours on a tractor a couple percent of efficiency and the enhanced durability may come into play but for a lot of people they just won't use it enough to see the difference.

A couple decades ago most of our equipment was still run on gas; swathers, combines, grain trucks, etc, now everything is diesel, on new machinery gasoline is not an option.

You can't make gasoline on the farm but you can sure make ethanol, it has it's issues in the conversion but so do diesel alternatives.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Cowboyhermit pretty much covered it in his post, 
I am not saying Don't go diesel, just not to get trapped in the Gotta have a diesel mind set.


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

Actually, I'll disagree a bit with cowboyhermit.

A gasoline engine requires a spark to ignite the fuel/air mixture. It has spark plugs, some sort of a distributor, and may be either fuel injected or carborated.

A diesel engine uses compression (PV=nRT anyone?) to ignite the fuel. Thus a 'quality' diesel engine (not one of those converted gas engines) costs a bit more since it's also quite a bit heavier due to the design requirements for a diesel engine. Diesel engines are fuel injected and have an injection pump ($$$.) Diesel fuel is sensitive to sub-zero temps (hence types #1 & #2) which can cause the viscosity to increase to the point that fuel filters clog or fuel lines plug due to gelling. So your normal winter environment is an important consideration in choosing which fuel to use.

Diesel is heavier than gasoline and provides more energy per unit of volume. This is why diesel cars are more fuel efficient than gas cars of the same model even though the diesel cars weigh several hundred pounds more. It's also why most heavy equipment is diesel along with the modestly simpler engines. Diesels are harder to start on freezing days though glowplugs and block and pan heaters can help some. Fuel injectors and the injection pump are the main maintenance differences between the two types of engines. Your local climate will dictate whether inside storage of the tractor is preferable in the winter months. If a diesel is stored outside in a cold climate (snow/ice for months), it's a good idea to completely drain the fuel system. I'll also point out that diesel engines have more torque than comparable gas engines. Due to their more robust design, diesel engines usually last significantly longer than gas engines.

Safe storage of fuel is another consideration when choosing between the two. Gasoline is both flammable and its vapors are explosive while diesel is only flammable with a higher ignition temperature than gas.

Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_fuel


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Marcus, I had to read your post twice to find anything we disagreed on I think you are saying that diesels are not more efficient, instead it is just that diesel has more energy per unit volume. It is true that diesel is more energy dense by volume however diesel engines are in fact more efficient on a fundamental level as in energy in converted to energy out (less is wasted).
Because I'm lazy here's a quote from wiki, sources are there, but there is lots of info online.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine 
"The diesel engine has the highest thermal efficiency of any standard internal or external combustion engine due to its very high compression ratio. Low-speed diesel engines (as used in ships and other applications where overall engine weight is relatively unimportant) can have a thermal efficiency that exceeds 50%.[1][2]"

With regards to winter use, like I said gasoline is much easier. We get around -40 every year running tractors in that could be a whole thread. Under -20 we either get winter diesel or add anti-gel to regular diesel, I prefer getting winter but both work. If you get diesel here in November, at the pumps or delivered it is already lighter fuel with anti-gel additives, most places with extreme cold are the same. It is also possible with a lot of tractors (with the fuel tank in front) to put a tarp over the hood like people use to cover radiators and the circulation will do a lot to prevent gelling.
For starting below -20 it is either heater (gas or electric) or starting fluid for us. There is also a big range in how diesels start in cold weather, cat engines

With regards to the injector pump, yes they are very pricy but they should last thousands of hours. I would be very hesitant to drain a diesel system for any length of time, especially the pump, would be more susceptible to seals, o-rings, and gaskets drying out, and moisture and corrosion, no? We have original injector pumps that have been outside for at least 50 years with no problems.

Anyways I really like diesels, that is practically all we run, but for a small farm I can see a gas tractor serving fine, cold weather performance being the only real plus.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

If we leave the professor $hit out of the equation one of the main reasons a diesel is cheaper to run is due to the leaner mixture, using as much air as the engine can suck in the case of naturally aspirated , or the waste heat of combustion with a turbo. fuel is also added as it burns, BTUs look cute on graphs in classrooms , but they rarely compute in the real world. As to tractor fuel efficiency it is all about horsepower hours per gallon. John Deere set the bar in the 50s and others still strive to meet it.

And we have de railed yet another thread


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## smaj100 (Oct 17, 2012)

Well I went with the 40 hp package, we pick it up this afternoon and I'll try to post some pics.


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## headhunter (Nov 21, 2008)

In 2000, we went from a garden tractor JD 140 (purchased in 1974 ) and an ATV to the smallest JD compact tractor , a 4100. It is still hard to believe how we got anything done without it. The bucket , although small, is a life saver. 
In combination with a 50" snowblower, 200+ yds of drive and the apron to the shed are kept clean. Old fence posts are pulled and heavy loads are picked off the truck's tailgate or the tandem axle trailer are no sweat. Down trees are transported 4 18" X24" diameter slices at a time.
While it is "resting", the lawn gets mowed 60" at a time.
With its compact size and 4 wheel drive it seems to go everywhere. I hope you find as much help in your new tractor as I have in mine and with as few problems.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

headhunter said:


> It is still hard to believe how we got anything done without it.


Most handy little tool to own.
My John Deere 850 with a Brantley loader would pick up both back tires off the ground (if the load was too heavy) and made no noise at all that sounded like a complaint.

Another thing about that 4100 - it uses less than a gallon of fuel per hour at max rated power.


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