# Broadcasting Position



## tinker (Jun 19, 2013)

Hi,

I see a great deal of discussion about different RF transmitters and relative watts. Isn't anyone worried about transmitting their location? 

RF signal triangulation takes a few seconds with gear from the 1960s. That is one of the reasons spec. op teams beam messages to satellites. Much harder to triangulate. If the SHTF I would maintain radio silence. Some radio gear is expensive and would easily announce the presence of a pile of goodies.


----------



## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

I don't know anybody that owns this type of equipment short of the military or FCC. As I recall it takes at least two sets to triangulate your position so it would take a team. If you are worried about the feds taking your supplies then by all means keep off the air or transmit from remote sites.


----------



## DKRinAK (Nov 21, 2011)

Radio sport - tracking down a 'fox' by the hounds - is a internally recognized "sport".

All it takes is a receiver and bit of patience. Many hams use nothing more than a mobile mount antenna stuck on the rear of their auto and using well known techniques, can find a transmitter in minutes.

It is a good point, but in context, a relatively low risk vs the benefit of having good communications across any real distance. Just don't transmit for long periods and be careful what you do put out over the air.

See of their is a club in your area, it can be great fun.


----------



## bacpacker (Jul 15, 2011)

Our group has practiced fox hunting at various times. Sometimes for practice, others to find someone trying to jam a signal or just causing problems. You can do it with a handheld. When you get close you remove the antenna to dial it in even closer.

It really only takes one person if the signal stays on long enough. More folks just speed things up.


----------



## k0xxx (Oct 27, 2011)

There are ways to minimize the chance of giving away ones location, depending on the frequencies being used. Using NVIS (Near Vertical Incidence Skywave) for some HF frequencies, digital burst transmissions, low power directional for VHF, etc., can make it harder to find you, but if your tracker is persistent and/or extremely well equipped (as in a Government agency), they can and will find you. Unless we devolve into something along the lines of civil war, I don't think that there is a lot to worry about.

In a SHTF event with bad guys running around looting and pillaging, A bunch of shiny aluminum antennas in the air would certainly announce that there may be things of value. For that reason using wire antennas for HF and small concealed or camouflaged VHF+ antennas would be advisable. Even though there are a lot of Hams, and even CB'ers, that know how to track a signal, I doubt that many bad guys would be scanning the bands as a way to find people or would be adept at triangulation. Just my opinion.


----------



## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

I think anyone transmitting should be aware that anything you say can be heard, obviously, many people believe their coms are "encrypted" when they are not. 
They should also know that the location that they are transmitting from CAN be determined.
As long as people are aware of these facts radio can be extremely useful imo. Like k0xxx says there are ways to make df more difficult but I would add that even the most sophisticated equipment can't find "you", only the location of your broadcast. That means they could find your house if you choose to broadcast from there, or they could find a nasty surprise


----------



## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

Something you can do to minimize the risks of being DF'd is to use a directional antenna and low power transmitter.

It will not prevent but it would be better than pumping out a kilowatt of power using an omni-directional antenna.


----------



## tinker (Jun 19, 2013)

My thinking was simple. If you have the resources to purchase a nice radio and the time to transmit. Then you have something people want. A pair of guys could easily pin point a direction and triangulate RF transmissions, encrypted or not. 

I would prefer to transmit only if I need to. I would listen a heck of a lot more. Hiding an antenna is a good idea. 

It would be simple to have corded comm. Yes the lines could be traced to a source but it is a closed low power system and very hard to find unless you know it is there. Just a thought...


----------



## k0xxx (Oct 27, 2011)

*Tinker*: Yes, there is always the chance that you will be tracked if you choose to transmit, so it is always important to understand the security situation and the risks involved. Our little "group" is better set up than most with regards to secure comms, but we understand that it isn't fool proof. We have the equipment, ability, and the experience needed to triangulate other if we choose to do so. Because we know the risks, we have devised what we feel is a communication setup that minimizes (but doesn't eliminate) those risks.

This is the basics of how I see our comms in use under a worse case scenario. If the situation allows for it during the bug out period, most of those that would be headed to any of our BOL's (we have a primary BOL and three alternates) have HF to UHF capable vehicles. We have a variety of methods to maintain opsec during the bug out.

During times of tenuous security, HF would be used for listening only, and our spread spectrum/frequency hopping handhelds would be used for tactical and security comms. The spread spectrum/frequency hopping feature would make triangulation of the handhelds virtually impossible for anyone short of an extremely well equipped Government agency. I've examined the signals with a spectrum analyzer and it is amazing how well the little radios work.

We have another group located roughly 30 miles away that will will be working with. We have setup and established low power encrypted, digital burst comms at 23cm, 13cm, 9cm, 5cm, and 3cm frequencies, for when security calls for "secrecy". There is a much smaller risk of being monitored or triangulated at the GHz frequencies. We are working on even higher frequency links, but so far have not been successful. Once we know what our limits are, we will revise our contact schedule and frequencies accordingly.

As for corded comms, that will only get you so far and it needs to be buried for safety and security. We have that for our OP's and for communicating between a few buildings, but that is about the limit of their usefulness to us.


----------



## tinker (Jun 19, 2013)

Now that is hard stuff to triangulate. Good idea. Hope you work out the kinks. Sounds almost like you could use your system to transmit text messages using a preselected rotating frequencies. (Would minimize voice issues by the way.) Way over my head though but sounds like you have it well in hand.


----------

