# Best vehicle



## J&J

I have a 2003 Jeep Rubicon. It is well built for trails, rockcrawling and drives well on the road. My worry is that While I am a decent garage mechanic, I cannot and have no clue regarding the repair, etc of the computer control systems.

My thought is that I could sell this and get an older vehicle that runs mechanically (carb/points and all) and renovate to a nearly new status. I want to maintain some 4wd capability, but am getting out of the extreme stuff.

I am thinking and older Jeep CJ, Wagoneer or Cherokee (full size) or an older Chevy blazer or suburban.

Keys being durability, availability of parts, able to run in extreme weather conditions...

Any other thoughts?

John


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## saintsfanbrian

Considering JCWhitney is full of parts for all Jeeps I would say you can't go wrong with an older CJ.


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## mcbob

I love Jeeps, but couldn't consider them kings of the apocalypse cars. Instead, I'd give that title to 80's - early 90's Toyota trucks and 4Runners with sticks and 4-bangers. Granted, I'm talking about stockish vehicles, since if you're building from the ground-up, you can make just about anything into a bastardization of the best parts you can source for whatever purpose you need. But stock, I think the mini trucks are the best compromise between reliability, capability, ubiquity, utility, and size.

Anyway, some justification:
- Tons of them out there, and cheap to stock up on spare parts. Jeeps bring a premium because they're more trendy.
- Lots of parts interchangeability, easy to work on. Many of the drivetrain components are the same or easily adaptable from ~'79-'95. Say you're in some rough driving and strip your ring & pinion; because of the drop-out 3rd-member, once you find a suitable spare, removing and replacing the 3rd is maybe a 4-hour job with simple hand tools. On solid front axle models, the front and rear 3rds are identical.
- sturdy, stout, reliable, and still get reasonable gas mileage (~20mpg). Toyotas benefit from being underpowered in stock form; you won't get anywhere quickly, but you'll most likely get there. You really have to try to snap something when driving them hard offroad. They typically don't have half the battery-draining electrical gremlins that pop up in old (or new) Jeeps. Most models of Jeep usually have at least one glaring Achilles-heel - rear axles on CJ's and Wranglers, nearly every drivetrain component on early YJ's, electricals on SJ's, transmissions on early XJ's and other models - that has a reputation for shuffling off its mortal coil with a much greater frequency than desireable. Junkyard spares are getting fewer and fewer; meanwhile even current Toyota trucks still share some parts interchangeability with their ~30-year-old ancestors.
The only electronic things to worry about (even on later versions) are a fuel pump, a few sensors, and an easily accessible and replaceable ECM. Grab some spares and throw them in a Faraday box if you're worried.
If you need more justification on this particular topic, Google Youtube for the 3-part "Top Gear - Killing A Toyota" series.
- "Enough" space. For 1-2 people, the cab and bed of a mini truck should be enough for most scenarios. When we were only a 4-person family, we still camped comfortably from my '85 4Runner. CJ's and Wranglers have always been woefully short on space for people and gear. Even our XJ got cramped before the 4Runner did. The larger Jeep models get attrocious gas mileage and aren't anywhere near as maneuverable.

Granted, CJ's have a ton more style and "coolness," but that's why I'm building a '68 CJ5 with a complete Toyota drivetrain.


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## Jerseyzuks

I agree with mcbob, an older toyota truck would probably be my first choice

A suzuki samurai would be a good choice if space wasn't a concern, as they are extremely nimble offroad, can be inexpensively modified, and get good gas milage.

With a suzuki, they were originally designed to be shipped to remote areas, and 95% of the vehicle can be disassembled and repaired using the tiny little tool kit that it came with (10mm, 12mm, 14mm, 17mm sockets and wrenches)


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## phr0zen

Do you know what the most extreme angle an offroad vehicle can climb up without rolling backwards?


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## Jerseyzuks

Depends on the vehicle. One of the reasons that a Humvee is so short and squat is so that it can ascend and decend very steep angles.

lower center of gravity = steeper an angle that can be climbed or decended


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## gumby

Does this mean that old suburbans might not be the best choice for offroad hill climbing?


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## Jerseyzuks

Bone stock an older suburban would probably do pretty well. 

When a vehicle is lifted, you are raising the center of gravity, making it more prone to rolling over


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## solaceofwinter

they used the 4.0 forever so parts should be real easy to come by. I miss my rubicon i had one of the same year as yours. 
with the reliabilty of that thing you shouldnt have to worry too much about replacing engine/tranny etc too much. some parts from TJ's will fit the same, remember rubicons only had the different t-case, axles and some of those things. its a good Vehicle man. I really wish i still had mine.


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## noodle

Wouldn't gas efficiency go out the window if you bought a big and old car


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## mcbob

Probably. If you're getting something like a Suburban, though, it's because you expect to have a lot of people and stuff to carry, which is easier to do in one vehicle rather than maintaining two+.

Everything's a compromise


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## JeepHammer

J&J said:


> I have a 2003 Jeep Rubicon. It is well built for trails, rockcrawling and drives well on the road. My worry is that While I am a decent garage mechanic, I cannot and have no clue regarding the repair, etc of the computer control systems.
> 
> My thought is that I could sell this and get an older vehicle that runs mechanically (carb/points and all) and renovate to a nearly new status. I want to maintain some 4wd capability, but am getting out of the extreme stuff.
> 
> I am thinking and older Jeep CJ, Wagoneer or Cherokee (full size) or an older Chevy blazer or suburban.
> 
> Keys being durability, availability of parts, able to run in extreme weather conditions...
> 
> Any other thoughts?
> 
> John


I own a BUNCH of old jeeps, AMC built CJ's, Trucks & FSJ's, and I've been a mechanic for 30 odd years, so I can speak with some authority on the subject of vehicles.

I'm also a student of history, so I will probably be able to shed some insight on that also...

So, here goes.
First of all, CJ jeeps are VERY simple to work on and maintain *if you an auto mechanic*.

First of all, CJ parts are scarce, and when you do find the parts you need, they are usually made by some fly by night outfit or import company, so they are junk,
And since they are 'Special Order' parts, they are EXPENSIVE!

CJ's are just as difficult to work on if you have never rebuilt an engine, transmission or axle, or build a wiring harness from scratch as any of the new vehicles...

Fuel injection is a GOOD THING!
Although you don't know what you are specifically looking at under the hood, aside from recognizing the carb, you wouldn't know what most of the stuff did when it was on the engine in mechanical form...

I like Rubicons, they are sturdy, well built vehicles that have VERY FEW PROBLEMS!
Read up on some of the Rubicon 'Issues', and plan for those problems.
------------------------------

*As for the 'Apocalypse Car' theory...
That is just SILLY!*

There have been religious cults 
(Including the current Jewish, Christian and Muslim religions) 
That have predicted the end of the world for as long as there have been men able to comprehend the idea....
AND IT'S NEVER HAPPENED!
The proof is, you are here, so all in the last 100,000 years have been WRONG!

It's a pretty good bet the guys right now, in your life time are WRONG too!

Your time, effort & money would be much better off if you were to adjust your goals, and make you life less complicated right now...
Instead of wasting money on, and dwelling on, an 'Apocalypse'...

Do something about your ravenous Consumerism!
Don't try and 'Buy' your way out of problems, find solutions that are at hand!

Do something about your carbon footprint.
Global warming IS an issue that might threaten the human race with an 'Apocalypse', but not in YOUR lifetime.
You are sowing the seeds for pain and suffering for your KIDS & GRAND KIDS!

Do something about your government officials and community officials that like to throw money away on anything but Infrastructure.
Constantly update the infrastructure, much like PROFITABLE PRIVATE COMPANIES DO,
So the city/county isn't loosing money on leaks, failures and trying to keep long outdated hardware up and running.

Do something about you personal space and community.
If YOU endow or maintain the road right of way next to your property, then that is money and effort the state/county/city does NOT have to spend, and in direct cause and effect, can spend on infrastructure updates, like actually FIXING the road way it's self!

You guys spend WAY TOO MUCH TIME thinking of ways to make your area melt down and blow up!
Start thinking of ways to help out and keep that from happening!

Friends and neighbors DO NOT burn each others houses down, they don't riot and attack their neighbors.
Go out and make some friends and act like neighbors!


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## mcbob

It's not the "end of the world" we're really worrying about, because we wouldn't be around long, anyway. A titanium spork surely won't be the saviour of the human race. Yet, there have been multiple "mini apocalypses" throughout the world's history: Katrina, Wiemar Germany, Great Depression, the wars of West Africa, and on and on. Society as a whole will most certainly endure, but for that short time of indeterminate duration, your main concern is the well-being of your family and your neighbors. Supplies and services will become unavailable. Food will become scarce. Your safety will become less certain than it ever has. At least SOME basic preparation for an extreme situation (like, say, big hurricanes, earthquakes, floods, civil unrest, warfare, massive power outages, fuel embargoes, etc.) is always a good thing.

I spent some time in Liberia just after the civil wars "officially" ended, and in that area at that time, a majority of the population WAS in "apocalypse survival mode." NOTHING was available, there was no work, no money, no utilities, little food, and little else other than hope and faith. Many people never had time, money, or motivation to prepare for such a situation: a situation that lasted 14 years. Yet some still had homes, vehicles, and food without having to resort to corruption and marauding. It's those people we're seeking to emulate. 

Certainly, do all you can do now - simplifying your life, fixing what you can, supporting like-minded individuals and policies. Surely you'll notice how "preparing for the apocalypse" coincides EXACTLY with about every recommendation on what we should "rather" be doing; choosing a sturdy, long-lasting, economical, practical vehicle could scarcely be a hindrance in either scenario.

Last note, returning to Liberia, hopefully stirring up no hornets' nests: you mention the wrong-mindedness of end-time religions. Many of the religious groups with "apocalypse" views, in particular the Christian church, endured the hardships best. This was due in no small part to not only preparing their spiritual conscience, but also their physical world. Because they were prepared, they were able to begin helping others immediately. How instant is any governmental response?


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## J&J

Whoa big fellas....

Back to the vehicle at hand...

I love my Rubicon... I do occasionally get frustrated at how complicated the engine, etc... is.

I have rebuilt many carbs in my day from cars, to trucks, to motorcycles,etc, so I do in fact understand them... I do not understand how much of the electronics/computer works in the rubi... hence my question...

Just pondering the thought as I mentioned above of selling the Rubi and building something else that is just as reliable, but is also simple....

McBob, I like your thoughts on the Toyota (hard for a jeep guy to say!) and will research some more...

Thanks,

John


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## N8EPE

*Chrysler fault codes*

Hi John,

I've been driving MoPigs for quite a while. I don't know if you're familiar with the onboard diagnostics of Chrysler products since the late 80's or so. If this is old news for you, maybe it'll help some of the other members.

On many Chryslers, you can get the computer & sensor(s) fault codes by cycling the ignition switch in the following manner.

Start with the ignition switch in the off position, then without going all the way to the start position, cycle the switch to 'on, off, on, off, on' and leave it in the on position. On electronic odometer models, the fault codes should display on the electronic odometer. I think the newer Chryslers use 'P codes'. When the codes are finished, or if there are no fault codes to display, you'll see a DONE on the odometer display.

My disclaimer is, I don't have anything as new as your 2003. I drive a well worn 95 Dakota, with the pre-digital odometer. On pre electronic odometer models, you watch the 'check engine' light, and it will blink the codes. You just need to count the blinks and pauses between blinks, to get the codes. It's a 'learned process' with the older models. Once you get the rhythm of the blinks and pauses, it's a piece of cake. On the older ones, you get a '5 5' to signal the end of the codes or no codes to display.

Some years / models might vary a little in their ignition switch sequence. It may require 4 on-off cycles, or 5 on-off cycles. On others, the parking brake needs to be applied, so YMMV.

I learned this method when I worked at Chrysler HQ in Auburn Hills, and was shooting the breeze with an engine engineer, while having a smoke break in the 'Butt Hut' as we called it. I was trying to diagnose an old 88 Omni that was giving me fits. I've used that method many times on a number of different MoPigs and it's saved me a lot of frustration and money, in the diagnostic process.

Take a look at this site...

Chrysler, Plymouth, and Dodge computer fault codes

....and read through it closely and check out some of the different methods needed to extract the fault codes. Hopefully you'll find the one that works on your 2003.

This list is listed as 2004 codes, but should also apply to the 2003, I believe.

Chrysler, Dodge, and Jeep Computer Error Codes

Hope this helps, and if it's old news, perhaps it'll help other MoPig drivers.

Doug


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## xj35s

GREAT POST N8EPE!!! 

If the codes don't help it could be something obvious. Talking about the vehical at hand, the jeep has a crank shaft position sensor. It is attached to the bellhousing and can come in contact with the body. It breaks and the jeep quits. It's hard to see down there.

Many times on newer cars it's something physical and can make you think it's electrical. Like broken or shorted wires.
You really have to be patient and look, touch, and wiggle.


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## dksac2

In my opinion, a late 80's GM or Ford pick up or Blazer style 4WD is the best to have. They are easy to work on and have a minimum of electronics. These old vehicles are all over the place, so scrounging for parts would be far easier than a Jeep or other less popular vehicle. I have a 90 Blazer. I keep an extra electronic used distributor, keep used but good belts and hoses etc. Gas mileage is not great (15 mpg), but I know I can find parts almost anywhere. 

Just my 2 cents, JK


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## 10101

IMO the best vehicle would have to be a non turbo diesel 4x4 quad cab pick up. I would choose a late 80's model ford 1 ton with the 7.3 liter.


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## styx

Ok, I have a question. How would an EMP blast effect fuel injection systems??? From what I hear it will render the car a road block, true?? If so a carbed engine might be a better over all vehicle for the real die hard SHTF people.


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## Magus

styx said:


> Ok, I have a question. How would an EMP blast effect fuel injection systems??? From what I hear it will render the car a road block, true?? If so a carbed engine might be a better over all vehicle for the real die hard SHTF people.


EMP dosen't effect diesels.


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## styx

Magus said:


> EMP dosen't effect diesels.


That's a nice fairytale. As far as I know all new diesels have computer control modules just like all the other new cars.


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## mcbob

Nobody's sure how EMP would affect vehicles or electronics of any kind. There are lots of theories, but little practical evidence.

As it regards to vehicle protection:

1- if you happen to be in the area of effect of EMP, you'll have bigger problems than non-functioning vehicles.
2- most any vehicle built since the mid-70's has some amount of integrated circuitry - electronic ignitions, emissions computers, control modules, various sensors, etc. Carbed, diesel, or injected really makes no difference as to their lack of functionality should all circuit boards get fried. Points breakers would likely work, but are far from the world's most efficient ignition systems.
3- EMP is instantaneous. You might effectively "ruggedize" a vehicle simply by putting spares of all the likely-to-fry circuitry (computers, sensors, etc) into a small Faraday box (Google it) and replacing them once you had some notion that EMP strikes were over for the time being.
4- In terms of situational readiness, choosing to drive a decrepit old points-fired jalopy just so you'll have wheels should a nuke strike nearby is... hm... not the best allocation of concerns.


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## Magus

styx said:


> That's a nice fairytale. As far as I know all new diesels have computer control modules just like all the other new cars.


My bad,last diesel I owned was made in 1974.
I have no idea what kind of crap they stick in them now.
well excuuuuuuuuuuuse me!


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## styx

No harm done 

I wouldn't want to drive a beater all the time, but it would be nice to know what sort of vehicle to look for if I had to. Or to keep in the barn "just in case"  An old diesel pickup might actually be the just the thing.


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## Fn/Form

Gasoline and Diesel fuel supply is limited. Those fuels do not store well, either, especially the new methanol blend gas. In any true disaster (barring an EMP event that may/may not disable modern vehicles), we will run out of fuel waaaaay before vehicle repair becomes an issue.

Living away from town/independently may make vehicle repair a worthwhile investment of time and money. I once bought a $700 '88 EFI truck, put a new motor/clutch in it for $1100, and ran it for 6yrs/140k miles before it was wrecked. Talk about saving money with know-how! 

Older fuel injection can be learned. There is a steep learning curve, but there are books out there to help you understand. For us'n shade tree mechanics, it boils down to testing/replacing sensors and control devices. 
Engine control computers can even be bought/stored, tools accumulated. Wrecked vehicles can source a lot of scrounge parts.

Newer models (late '90s and newer) need service computers or software to make sense of the sensors/feedback. There are some aftermarket packages for shade tree guys, but it's much more complicated than the first/second gen EFI systems. If you don't have the books/software, you end up blowing a lot of money using the shotgun method of blindly replacing parts/sensors that "might" be causing the problem.

One of the biggest problems with shade tree fuel inj repair is the cheap parts sold by most auto parts stores--especially sensors. They SUCK. OEM parts are best to stock. I spent nearly ten years working on my own and family Ford EEC-IV systems. Commonly replaced items were Air Charge Temperature (ACT), Engine Coolant Temp (ECT), Throttle Position (TPS), the infamous TFI ignition module, Idle Air Bypass control motor, the blocking diode on the air conditioning clutch coil (used to prevent the collapsing electric field/current from electro-mech clutch from killing the engine control computer), neutral position sensor (for standard transmissions; I simply jumpered it), control relays, fuel pumps (low pressure in-tank pump and high-pressure pump between low pressure pump and injector rail), Oxygen sensor, and a few catalytic converters (replaced by muffler shop). Needless to say, my Ford EFI book by Probst stayed in the truck! Books as thorough as that one are hard to come by. Current Chilton/Haynes manuals are better than nothing, but they cannot take the place of a good FI book.

However, few people have the time and inclination to figure those things out and become proficient at troubleshooting. Consider propane conversions for older gas engines. It is a simple carb style system. Propane stores almost indefinitely, needs no Sta-Bil or other additives. Generators, home appliances and heaters can be run it as well. I drove a sizable Farmall tractor that ran on propane, too. Hank Hill would have been proud.

I now have an '05 Tundra... haven't even tried to mess with the engine control system!


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## JeepinOverU

I think one of the best vehicles would be a 94-98 dodge cummins. They are not computer controlled, you can run them on a wide variety of fuel besides diesel, and i own one... A military 6x6 would also be a good vehicle, you can run them on anything, they are huge, relyable, and you can buy one for $2500. I also like my jeep cherokee rock buggy which is another best vehicle in my opinion.


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## rozy

J&J said:


> I have a 2003 Jeep Rubicon. It is well built for trails, rockcrawling and drives well on the road. My worry is that While I am a decent garage mechanic, I cannot and have no clue regarding the repair, etc of the computer control systems.
> 
> My thought is that I could sell this and get an older vehicle that runs mechanically (carb/points and all) and renovate to a nearly new status. I want to maintain some 4wd capability, but am getting out of the extreme stuff.
> 
> I am thinking and older Jeep CJ, Wagoneer or Cherokee (full size) or an older Chevy blazer or suburban.
> 
> Keys being durability, availability of parts, able to run in extreme weather conditions...
> 
> Any other thoughts?
> 
> John


Hello,

If you are a descent garage mechanic, i think you should go for Chevy Blazer. It's a nice car And is not computer controlled. It's spare parts are cheap and easily available in the market as compared to wagoneer,Cherokee..

Also it's fuel efficiency is good and it can run on any fuel. You can easily get the old Chevy Blazer.:2thumb:

Have a nice time ahead.


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## szabotage

rozy said:


> Hello,
> 
> If you are a descent garage mechanic, i think you should go for Chevy Blazer. It's a nice car And is not computer controlled. It's spare parts are cheap and easily available in the market as compared to wagoneer,Cherokee..
> 
> Also it's fuel efficiency is good and it can run on any fuel. You can easily get the old Chevy Blazer.:2thumb:
> 
> Have a nice time ahead.


which chevy blazer are you talking of? I know of 2 versions. the full size version, and the mid sided. neither of which run on 'any fuel', nor are they fuel efficient.


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## Canadian

I never liked the blazer. I liked the S-10 pickup and the Astro Cargo off the same chassis better. I also liked the Chevy G-vans. Cargo vans are cool. My fave is the 1 ton cab and chassis with a dualie rear and the gasoline motor. Fun to drive.


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## szabotage

lol, I own a GMC safari van and love it to death. not the greatest on gas, especially in tow, but it's reliable as hell, and has alot of room. I'm pimping it outwith a full tool box/work bench, on board air for my air tools, and propane for a camp stove/fridge. it'll also be equipped with my miller 135 mig welder, 26 gallon air tank and small honda generator.

this is just my tow vehicle for my suzuki samurai rockcrawler buggy, my pride and joy!






BTW, this is my choice of vehicle, maybe not in this configuration, but the samurai platform in general


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## UncleJoe

JeepinOverU said:


> I think one of the best vehicles would be a 94-98 dodge cummins.


I have a 94 Dodge with the Cummins, but I prefer my 82 GMC, 4wd, 1 ton dump. It's a tank, simple to work on, easy to find parts, and it will go almost anywhere. Put the 8' plow on it and I'll push that Dodge into the next county.


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## GREASEMONKEY

I also have an 03 rubicon, built not baught!
The negative side of a wrangler is the lack of any protection. The soft top, and even the fiberglass hard top's are minimal protection from the outside. It's just there to keep the weather out. It's probably one of the most capable exit vehicles available. With the lack of cargo space, it comes in just under one of the older toyota trucks with the straight axle front ends. In reguards to capability off road, and in turbulent weather it's probably the most cost effective. I gat crap fuel economy, but that is the last thing on my mind in evacuation. I can make it to the family farm in the upstate on 1/2 tank, and that's all I'm lookin to do. 
I also have an AATV that can be used as an exit vehicle.
2002 ARGO Bigfoot 6x6 
It's the rubicon of AATV's

Here's a pic of both before I lifted the jeep.


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## cowpuncher

I'll be the naysayer on the Jeep. Some thoughts...

If I'm in any sort of Psuedo-SHTF/TEOTWAWKI or the real deal, I'm gonna have a pile of hauling chores to ask of my vehicle. Ever tried to haul a load of hay or feed or firewood with a Jeep Rubicon or CJ? There's a reason that small, 4WD pickups are the vehicle of choice for Third-World guerrillas and paramilitaries. Hell, we had Ford F-350s when I was at Group, and preferred them far more than the HMMWVs! We could haul more crap and get danged near as many places, whether we were in the Balkans, the ME, or the Stan.

As for diesel or gas? In some ways, it's six of one, half-dozen of the other. As someone pointed out, EMP isn't gonna be a factor. If you're close enough for it to affect your electronics, you've got bigger issues to deal with (burn/blast, radiation poisoning, etc...). 

I go for diesels for a far simpler reason. As someone else pointed out, fuel shortages are going to be a larger problem than your truck breaking down in a SHTF situation, especially a long-term one. It's easier to make Bio-Diesel than it is to convert your vehicle to run on 100% ethanol/alcohol. I know a couple dozen people that spend maybe two hours a week on their fuel production, yet get three or four tanksfull of fuel out of it. They're driving 3/4 and 1-tons too, not Mercedes or Saabs.

My choice? Any full-size, 3/4 or 1-ton pickup from one of the Big Three manufacturers, as long as it runs on diesel and has 4WD. I'd put a heavy, welded steel cattle/brush-guard on the front end with winch mounts, and a welded steel pipe rear bumper, also with winch mounts. I'd make sure I had AT LEAST one complete set of spare tires (preferably run-flats or something similar), just in case the mounted tires got thrashed. I'd keep a charged air-compressor in the truck and a tire plug kit as well (I cowboyed on a place in Utah where I used my plug kit at least once every three or four days. The oilfield trucks wore the road down to rock quickly, and the rock was hell on my truck and stock trailer tires.


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## GREASEMONKEY

cowpuncher said:


> I'll be the naysayer on the Jeep. Some thoughts...
> Ever tried to haul a load of hay or feed or firewood with a Jeep Rubicon or CJ?


Sure, all the time. That's why it was regeared for the torque. I attached a pic of my jeep with a 1400lb trailer hauling 5000lb. Yep that's far over the rated max towing weight, but it was somthing that needed to be done.



cowpuncher said:


> I'd put a heavy, welded steel cattle/brush-guard on the front end with winch mounts, and a welded steel pipe rear bumper, also with winch mounts.


 Can't get any tougher than warn bumpers, and winch, full lenth skids, and armored corners. I bounce mine off rocks on a regular basis, with only cosmetic damage.(nothing a can of krylon wont fix)



cowpuncher said:


> I'd keep a charged air-compressor in the truck and a tire plug kit as well


It's got OBA, and I carry a complete set of tools. I also keep handy a spare set of axles, and general hardware, ect...

I see everyones point on fuel, ect..., but I'm only looking to get out of the city. I'm not looking for long term, that's what the atv's are for. It's fuel efficient, hauls 2000lb, and will cover any job I have for it.
My point being that I can do what's needed for ME with my jeep. 
It can overcome just about any obstacle within reason, tow any load I need, and safely travel 75-80mph on the highway. For me it's the swiss army knife of vehicles. It does have it's down side, but its minor in reference to my needs.

I see your choice in the toyota, but that's you. The toyota would be useless to me in the event I have to traverse an obstacle that requires crawling ability, or in off camber situations. I would pick a toyota in a second for long term, but not for my short goal of getting the heck out of dodge.









Just my


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## Turtle

Yeah, I'm a Jeep guy, too. Heck, I found this site from JeepForum. 

An early TJ would be my ideal, with a late YJ my second pick. You can armor them up, turn them into whatever you want, and the 4.0 is a damned fine engine. And the parts are so interchangeable, you could keep one running for decades just off of scavenged parts if you had to.

Gotta add, though: the GM small-block and the Ford 302 are also a great foundation for a solid, reliable vehicle. Both engines were in production for over fifty years in various forms, so parts are plentiful.


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## GatorDude

*Try this!*

I've got a new bug out vehicle alternative--A moving truck. You can get them used for about $12-$20K from rental companies like Penske. You can bug-out with everything you own. They are reliable diesels. You can carry lots of extra supplies, fuel, etc. They are bigger than other vehicles on the road. You can barter the services of you and your truck in exchange for fuel and other goods and services. It has a pretty good range. You can get a dolly or trailer and tow another vehicle. A moving truck might be a great bug-out vehicle. :2thumb:

Test Drive: Penske 26-Foot International Diesel Moving Truck


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## Jason

That's actually a pretty cool idea. Many sizes available too. 2 drawbacks that come to mind right away-probably only gonna be 2 wheel drive, and tons of miles put on them by people who can't drive them right and/or don't care what they do to the truck because it's rented.


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## GatorDude

I know what you mean, I've been one of them people. But, you do tend to drive carefully when you have ALL of your stuff in the back. I think the trucks are pretty bulletproof except for minor niggles, but it is really easy to mess up a trailer.


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## Jason

Very good point, Gatordude. Also, the trucks are pretty dumbed down. In other words, they have an auto tranny rather than, say, a 5 speed with a 2 speed rear end that most people would have no idea how to drive. Also, lots of mirrors and such to help guide you.


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## kbamvakais

I think jeeps are great, but from all i know, and ill others have said. i have come to one conclusion on the best vehicle. early 80's AMC EAGLE WAGON, Straight 6 power and milage, 4x4 good clearance, built like a tank, not many electronics,Easy to repair and parts are cheap and easy to find tons of cargo capacity,comfortable, no its not the fastest and no its not the biggest but i would rather have a vehicle that does many things well than one that does a few things great.


P.S. WE WILL NOT GO QUIETLY IN TO THE NIGHT!!!!


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## NaeKid

kbamvakais - I love those ol' Eagles as well. The only problem that I have heard with them is that maintenance of the brakes needs to be done several times a year because they wear out. I don't know if it was due to the area that I lived in (very steep mountain roads) or if it was due to a bad design / material used in the brakes.

If I found an Eagle for the right price and in decent shape - I would take one of them - but - they are getting more and more difficult to find. Now - the closest vehicle to those would be Subaru AWD. My father had one, he said it was great to drive, but, the gas-milage sucked for a "car".


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## kbamvakais

*HAHA Scrap the Eagle, i Want this.*

a picture is worth a thousand words right, cuz i can only think of one.....

AWSOME


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## bigjohn

noodle said:


> Wouldn't gas efficiency go out the window if you bought a big and old car


not really many of the older stuff got just as good if not better milage than the newer trucks, the milage dropps of with age and when someone freshens the engine up and can't help but hotrod it even just a little.


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## bigjohn

my personal favorite is an early Bronco. The little ones with the pickup setup. I have found I can repair mine with just about anything. These trucks are very tough you just need to do some simple preps to fix the few weaknesses they have such as under the doors they tend to rust. I applyed sprayed on bedliner and problem solved. ect.


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## Hellbound13

What about an FJ Cruiser? They seem to do well with speed and on road handling, there is enough room for four people and gear, they have ATRAC and rear locker stock and they are hard top for protection and you can slap a roof rack on them to carry supplies..


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## marlas1too

i have two very good bob vev. the first one is a 1985 mill.spec. chevy blazer with only 29,000 mil.on it and its a desel with black out lights and gun racks behind the driver seat and no electronics the second on--my baby- is a 1979 dodge power wagon with a 360 motor and all time 4x4and the blazer is 4x4 too they are monsters but will get us out of the woods here wv or back into deep timber-we are in the process of changing the blazer from a mil. 24 volt system to a 12 volt syatem -not too hard but will keep the 2 batts in for more amps tor the light bars and winchs we will be gettingot to love early american iron


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## oilcan

You might be surprised that the CUCV trucks do have electronic parts. The glow plug card is prone to failure, but can be bypassed to run the system manually easy enough. I've had two different 6.2's refuse to start in the summer if the glow plugs weren't working.
Also, there's a starter relay up under the dash by the steering column that can stick and the only way to shut the starter down is to disconnect the batteries. I've heard horror stories of having the starter ripped off the block with the engine running and the starter engaged.

That said, I do really like those trucks. The only reason I sold my M1009 was to pay for the suburban. (I needed more room!)


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## survivalboy12895

styx said:


> That's a nice fairytale. As far as I know all new diesels have computer control modules just like all the other new cars.


Either way,diesel would be superior to gas.The fuel it self,lasts much longer(up to 10 years if stored correctly


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## mosquitomountainman

NaeKid said:


> kbamvakais - I love those ol' Eagles as well. The only problem that I have heard with them is that maintenance of the brakes needs to be done several times a year because they wear out. I don't know if it was due to the area that I lived in (very steep mountain roads) or if it was due to a bad design / material used in the brakes.
> 
> If I found an Eagle for the right price and in decent shape - I would take one of them - but - they are getting more and more difficult to find. Now - the closest vehicle to those would be Subaru AWD. My father had one, he said it was great to drive, but, the gas-milage sucked for a "car".


The eagles were great other than being a pain in the you know where to work on.

My guess on the brake problem would be to rebuild or replace the calipers on the front disc brakes. They have a tendancy toward sticking which wears the pads out prematurely. Any time I replaced the brakes on mine I always put remanufactured calipers on too. They were pretty reasonably priced at the time. I had customers who didn't and they didn't get as long a lifespan out of the front brakes as I did.

Ours held the road on ice better than anything else I've ever owned. The ground clearance was adequate for moderate off-road driving. The gas mileage, while better than my big pickup, wasn't much to brag about. The only real change I'd have recommended to the manufacturer would have been a two speed transfer case. There were times when driving in deep snow and busting through drifts it would have been nice to have a lower gear. (Of course the drifts were as high as the hood of the car. We're talking about Montana snow. Light and flufy stuff rather than the wet, heavy snow in the South and East.)


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## Tribal Warlord Thug

szabotage said:


> BTW, this is my choice of vehicle, maybe not in this configuration, but the samurai platform in general


gotta love the manuverability and just sheer fun in these lil' things.....4 wrenches, a set of vise grips and yer good to go..lol


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## questor

Has anyone looked at the Idaho Motor Pool website.
Lotta nice Duce anna Halfs there.
Plus some Spiffy odds and ends


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## rflood

*How about an early model Land \ Range Rover*

Been looking through the postings here and thought I would toss this out. I got to thinking about a Land \ Range Rover after being in Florida at a friends place when they got hit with a big storm which flooded everything. We wheeled out of his swamped garage in his 1995 Land Rover and ended up traveling through streets where the water was lapping up to about 6 inches under the windows and the Rover kept on chugging. I know parts might be an issue and the electronics in regards to an EMP burst but the Rovers I have seen are pretty capable in stock mode, just wanted to see what y'all thought. Early model being 1990-1995.


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## questor

I'm under the impression that British vehicles were a bit "tinkery".
I had a Triumph GT6 that I was always tuning.
and you're right about the parts, plus they're ex pen sive


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## Vertigo

rflood said:


> Been looking through the postings here and thought I would toss this out. I got to thinking about a Land \ Range Rover after being in Florida at a friends place when they got hit with a big storm which flooded everything. We wheeled out of his swamped garage in his 1995 Land Rover and ended up traveling through streets where the water was lapping up to about 6 inches under the windows and the Rover kept on chugging. I know parts might be an issue and the electronics in regards to an EMP burst but the Rovers I have seen are pretty capable in stock mode, just wanted to see what y'all thought. Early model being 1990-1995.


I would suggest, if you are intent on buying from the land rover brand, get yourself the Defender model. Once you have had one of those, you'll never look back. They are also among the absolute favorites for the mudder/crawler crowd. And that usually says a little thing about quality.

V.


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## vfourmax

rflood said:


> Been looking through the postings here and thought I would toss this out. I got to thinking about a Land \ Range Rover after being in Florida at a friends place when they got hit with a big storm which flooded everything. We wheeled out of his swamped garage in his 1995 Land Rover and ended up traveling through streets where the water was lapping up to about 6 inches under the windows and the Rover kept on chugging. I know parts might be an issue and the electronics in regards to an EMP burst but the Rovers I have seen are pretty capable in stock mode, just wanted to see what y'all thought. Early model being 1990-1995.


I have heard that in Australia where going into the outback vehicle reliability can literally mean life or death that they have a saying, " If you want to go into the outback get a Land rover, if you want to get back get a Toyota Land Cruiser!"

Whether that has any truth to it I have no idea!

I do know that working for one of the largest auto parts distibutors in the country aftermarket parts support for Land rovers is very very low.

A good BOV in a SHTF situation would better be one that was more common with very high aftermarket parts support making sourcing replacement parts from common parts houses or abandoned vehicles better to be easily found or obtained.

In a SHTF situation ordering parts through the dealership network will no longer be an option in most cases.


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## rflood

Speaking of Blazers ...
Cars for Sale: 1984 Chevrolet Blazer 4x4 2 Door in Blue Ridge, GA 30513: Sport Utility Details - 269905961 - AutoTrader.com


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## Diego2112

Daihatsu Rocky (the II, I think) will survive ANYTHING you throw at it (barring EMP, MAYBE). It survived the desert sands of the Sahara, and was still kicking. It survived ALL the F.A.R. team threw at it, AND survived a dip in the Nile. Still going strong, last I heard.

Then again, I'm not sure how easy one is to find 'round these parts (as in, ANYWHERE in America... lawl)...:dunno:


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## kbamvakais

Agrees with the land cruises. I use to have one excellent. On and off road great reliability, mileage as far as the rover goes I can say from experience as a used car dealer they are very finiki and not the most reliable.


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## Tirediron

Your best bet for after a crash is what ever is common to your area for parts availability, the best vehicle can still be brought to a halt by one parts failure:scratch


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## Desertrat1

Lifting a vehicle is a comprimise. You raise the center of gravity but increase the approach and departure angles. A 4 inch lift on a suburban doesn't raise the center of gravity that much and greatly improves the approach and depature angles. The trick to preventing roll-overs is to not put yourself in the position of being sideways on a grade. Straight up and Straight down. Good off-roading skills come with experience. if you are new to off roading go out with people that have been doing it for a while you can learn a lot very quickly. 8+ inch lifts don't have the return on investment. Keep it reasonable.


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## rflood

OK folks. I did more poking around on my Land Rover thought, went out checked a few out. Strong capable truck, can handle a great deal of off road obstacles. But, the big thing I heard from some LR guys is parts availability, cost and reliability. So I'm crossing the LR off my list for now. I've also been getting closer to a firmed up BOL, so that is helping me think it out more as well. My BOL shouldn't be more than 120-150 miles from where I am so I am thinking that a good solid old school diesel Chevy Blazer (1983-1986) that I am going to dedicate specifically for use as a BOV. I already have a 02 Dodge Ram 1500 Quad cab, runs good but it is really getting loooooong in the tooth and it isn't a 4x4, but I still will keep it as a secondary BOV as it is paid for. I have gotten a lot out of the forum threads here and some great ideas on trailers to pull as well.


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## woodsman23

rflood said:


> OK folks. I did more poking around on my Land Rover thought, went out checked a few out. Strong capable truck, can handle a great deal of off road obstacles. But, the big thing I heard from some LR guys is parts availability, cost and reliability. So I'm crossing the LR off my list for now. I've also been getting closer to a firmed up BOL, so that is helping me think it out more as well. My BOL shouldn't be more than 120-150 miles from where I am so I am thinking that a good solid old school diesel Chevy Blazer (1983-1986) that I am going to dedicate specifically for use as a BOV. I already have a 02 Dodge Ram 1500 Quad cab, runs good but it is really getting loooooong in the tooth and it isn't a 4x4, but I still will keep it as a secondary BOV as it is paid for. I have gotten a lot out of the forum threads here and some great ideas on trailers to pull as well.


Get an F150 and be happy with it. It is most likely the most reliable truck and parts are everywhere for it. Mine has 3000,xxx miles on it and it runs great and can go off raod with the best of them and don't forget the winch....


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## longtime

Hope you got an extra zero in there.


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## Tribal Warlord Thug

decided to go with "bigger is better" approach......sold both of or trackers and the jimmy....then turned around and bought me a 1999 suburban and the ol' lady a 1993 full size bronco.


















think i'll go with 3" lift for the suburban to clear 35's and 3" lift on the bronco so it'll clear 33's both are capable of hauling a lot of crap, and the 'burban is really comfy...lol


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## siafulinux

WoW, I'm liking this. Seems like they're also pretty inexpensive, but not sure about the conditions. Are there any similar smaller vehicles like this out there?

I didn't know something like this even existed, thanks!



rabidcoyote666 said:


> gotta love the manuverability and just sheer fun in these lil' things.....4 wrenches, a set of vise grips and yer good to go..lol


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## questor

siafulinux said:


> WoW, I'm liking this. Seems like they're also pretty inexpensive, but not sure about the conditions. Are there any similar smaller vehicles like this out there?
> 
> I didn't know something like this even existed, thanks!


I've heard nice things about the old Suzuki 4x4's


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## SoonerBoomer

Keep the Jeep J&J. Just start now and collect your replacement parts. If they are susceptable to EMP, store them in a shielded area. One big advantage to Jeeps of the era you have is the almost perfect fit to standard guage railroads. Wouldn't hurt to buy a wrecked Jeep very close to what you have for spare parts.


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## HozayBuck

*Bronco graveyard*

I found this site and was enthralled by it and there are some pretty good deal on some of the units in the classifieds.. check it out... if your a horse fan!..

Early Bronco Restoration Full Size Bronco Restoration Classic Ford Bronco Parts For Sale


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## rflood

Thanks Hozay, some nice rigs out there for sale and even the early Bronc's aren't as expensive as I was expecting to see.

I got my eye on this old 84 S'Burb out my way for a few grand, but I love those old Bronc's


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## Tirediron

For full size vechicles chevs have quite a bit of SHTF advantage, common bellhousing , common engine mounts , common distributor in v8 chevs ,
a point distributor from a '55 283 fits an '99 vortec 350 . try that with a ford or dodge. brand prefferance is personal , the late bobtail broncos were an amazing 4x4 but the axles are bobtail bronco only . Anyway that is my rant:beercheer:


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## BadgeBunny

I'm curious how you make the 1955 distributor run in a 1999 vehicle. Mine has a camshaft position sensor that must communicate with the crankshaft position sensor. My vote goes to the Toyota. We have a 1986 4Runner with 210,000 miles and it runs great. No computer crap to foul up your diagnosis of what is wrong. I can get parts anywhere. It dosent look like much but it is tough. I like my Suburban too, its just harder to work on and I don't think it will go places that the Toyota will, even with the 4 wheel drive engaged. Just my two cents.


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## Tirediron

I didn't say the point distributor would run the craputer stuff , just that it fits, so in the event of fryed electronics a retro fit would be a lot easier, than a ford which seems to have a different distributor for each engine ETC, 
You can take a 99 chev 5.7 (350) put a point distributor and coil and adapt a carb and have something that would at least run , might not be efficient but with a little monkeying it would run. 
Just pointing out that the chevrolet engine interchange is a lot wider than any other NA manufacturer
not saying one is better than the other just talking about interchange


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## Tribal Warlord Thug

Tirediron said:


> I didn't say the point distributor would run the craputer stuff , just that it fits, so in the event of fryed electronics a retro fit would be a lot easier, than a ford which seems to have a different distributor for each engine ETC,
> You can take a 99 chev 5.7 (350) put a point distributor and coil and adapt a carb and have something that would at least run , might not be efficient but with a little monkeying it would run.
> Just pointing out that the chevrolet engine interchange is a lot wider than any other NA manufacturer
> not saying one is better than the other just talking about interchange


1000% agree with ya there tirediron.....lots of old chevy stuff is still lying around everywhere, and if yer like me...you have the knowledge and skills to do most mech. swaps or refits that'll git yer azz out of the woods :beercheer:


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