# Is there a way to keep stored water from freezing?



## sofasurfer (Aug 5, 2012)

Barrels of water filled in the summer, winter comes, what good is the water.

Barrels of water filled and stored in the basement, apocalypse comes, no power for heat, water barrels break and you have a skating rink in the basement.

Is there an additive to stop freezing? And since someone is going to say "antifreeze", how about non toxic additive?


----------



## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

Alcohol (ethanol) or salt come to mind. The other trick is to leave a bit of the container (~10%) empty to allow the water to expand without bursting.


----------



## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

sofasurfer said:


> Barrels of water filled and stored in the basement, apocalypse comes, no power for heat, water barrels break


If you have no heat at all, I'm thinking that having water freeze will be the least of your concerns. 
Unless you have extended periods of sub 0°F temps, a basement will stay above the freezing point as ambient ground temperature is 50°-55°F. I have plenty of stuff in an unheated basement and have never had anything freeze.


----------



## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

*Underground Storage*

Our underground cistern doesn't freeze here, even with a couple weeks of sub-zero temps, and the top of it is at ground level where the ground freezes hard. Heat from the earth below keeps it warm, and it is only 7 feet deep.

In a more severe climate than ours in south Indiana, you would have to bury it deeper, maybe a few feet below the surface. Our unheated basement never freezes, either.

I wouldn't want to add anything to our drinking water.


----------



## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

You don't say where you live and it can make a huge difference. When I lived in the frozen northland (Minnesota) sometimes water lines froze and burst that were buried 6 feet deep. So most buried at least 8 feet down. Winters vary alot. I've lived and camped in below zero temps and it is no fun(look where I live now). I would say empty most of your water before it freezes and keep some in your basement. Most often in the winter you have snow that can be melted for water. If you have no way to heat where you live and the temps are below zero then I doubt if you could survive anyway.


----------



## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

sofasurfer said:


> Barrels of water filled and stored in the basement, apocalypse comes, no power for heat, water barrels break and you have a skating rink in the basement.


Move to Texas


----------



## bahramthered (Mar 10, 2012)

It's probally a stupid idea for reasons I'm sure someone will enlighten me of but why not use an agitator? Keep the water moving so it can't freeze?


----------



## sofasurfer (Aug 5, 2012)

So stupid it is GENIUS!!! Trouble is, what if the power is off? Have to get a gerbil in a wheel thingy to power it.


----------



## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Going down into the ground is the key. It's warmer the deeper you go in the winter. In North Dakota it can be -40*F outside and the veggies in the root cellar won't freeze.


----------



## ComputerGuy (Dec 10, 2010)

sofasurfer said:


> So stupid it is GENIUS!!! Trouble is, what if the power is off? Have to get a gerbil in a wheel thingy to power it.


Row, Row, Row, Row


----------



## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

hiwall said:


> You don't say where you live and it can make a huge difference.


Ditto - need more info


----------



## oneblackgsx (Aug 14, 2012)

Um, wrap your barrels in blankets...


----------



## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

sofasurfer said:


> Barrels of water filled in the summer, winter comes, what good is the water.
> 
> Barrels of water filled and stored in the basement, apocalypse comes, no power for heat, water barrels break and you have a skating rink in the basement.
> 
> Is there an additive to stop freezing? And since someone is going to say "antifreeze", how about non toxic additive?


You can use a little bit of RV-antifreeze which is not harmful for consumption - the flavor isn't great, but, it works well enough.


----------



## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Most RV antifreeze does not prevent freezing! It only prevents expansion so frozen plumbing does not break. Go to the liquor store and buy a bunch of "Everclear" 190 proof. Mix that with your water it will help lower the freeze temp. Plus you can drink it.


----------



## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

it takes a lot of cold for a very long time to get a barrell of water to completly freeze.
I suspect unless you are going thru an alaskan winter you will not see it even w/o heat.

I once had a house w/o any heat all winter in DE and no pipes burst at all.


----------



## ActivePrepper (Jul 3, 2012)

If you talking about an unattended/cached storage situation, then insulation and burial as others have stated is your best betd. But if your talking about during shtf situation, then a good option would be to store your water close to your living area in a grid down scenario. A place close to where you plan to cook, eat, sleep, etc. You will need heat for yourself where you plan to be, so that area will most likely not be below freezing, or you will be close to death yourself. A water barrel is a good heat sink (once warmed, it holds onto that heat and releases it slowly), so not only would you be keeping the water from freezing, but you will also give yourself some residual heat in the area when your primary source is off/down, etc. Even better if you could place that barrel close to a south facing window and capture some solar heat as well.


----------



## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

As long as the cellar/basement is below the frost line you should not have to worry about freezing. If a basement window is left open or if there is another reason for significant circulation of outside air you may still have a problem. The earth is an enormous heat sink and should keep your basement above freezing in most situations.

If you have lost all power and do not have another heat source your basement may be the warmest place in the house. You may not be comfortable at forty or fifty degrees but that sure beats forty below.


----------



## Jason (Jul 25, 2009)

I agree with all the other posts. Freezing shouldn't be an issue. If it is, however, your best bet is to leave some expansion room in your barrels. If you start adding crap to your water, even drinking alcohol, you're messing up your single most valuable comodity. If you put 25 gallons in a 30 gallon drum you're safe and you still have an awful lot of water stored, even if it is heat-n-serve.


----------



## bucketlist (Oct 26, 2012)

I see a lot of guesswork here. Water freezes at 32F and it does expand. Blankets do not add heat but only slow down the transfer. They used to (and might still) pull the ferry out of the moving Yukon River for two weeks while the river froze, then drove trucks across the ice. Water above ground will freeze solid here in Oklahoma.

I use 2 liter bottles in my ice chest to transport groceries. I leave a little air space and ALSO squeeze a little so there is room for expansion, then freeze on their side. The bottles round out nicely when frozen because the ice is expanding in all directions.

I can't squeeze a 50 gallon food-grade plastic barrel. I can deal with frozen barrels, but not split barrels. My question, which I can't find answered anywhere, is what will happen to the barrel when the water inevitably freezes. I suspect I could cut the long way and lay it down like a trough and probably not crack the plastic. But it would be nice to hear from someone that has actually used barrels above ground. Apparently lots of people use them. Why does nobody report on the reality of freezing?

I'm capturing rain from a painted steel roof. Winter is near and of course I have no idea when or if I might need the water. I'll find out the hard way if barrels survive, and I'll cut a few barrels just for insurance. It sure would be nice not to have to sacrifice barrels to invent this wheel.


----------



## Immolatus (Feb 20, 2011)

I have mine in the garage, and last winter was pretty mild so it wasnt an issue but I think Ill have to do something this year. 
Salt seems to be the obvious answer.


----------



## PrepN4Good (Dec 23, 2011)

Even tho I'm in the South, I've still had my rain barrels freeze during some winters. But as I just use them for my garden, I wasn't particularly concerned about needing to use the water. But the barrels have never split, either. :dunno:


----------



## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

bucketlist said:


> Water freezes at 32F


This is a widely-spread misconception... the number is actually when ice becomes liquid water. There are a lot of variables that cause water to freeze. Water can exist in liquid for far below 32 degrees... they are called "supercooled". Supercooling



bucketlist said:


> I can't squeeze a 50 gallon food-grade plastic barrel.


Just don't fill them as full. Fill to 2/3 (Minnesota) to 3/4 (Oklahoma) full and lay them on their side. You won't split a barrel



Immolatus said:


> Salt seems to be the obvious answer.


Geez, I hope not. Getting salt out of your drinking water is extremely hard to do. You would also need so much salt it would no longer be drinkable. You can't drink seawater, and it *freezes*, so....


----------



## bahramthered (Mar 10, 2012)

Depends on how much salt you put in, traces amount lower the freezing temp and you need some salt in your diet. Like most things it's all about the balance; Too little fatal, too much fatal.  :dunno:

http://www.worsleyschool.net/science/files/saltandfreezing/ofwater.html

Basically almost everything helps but what do you want to use?
Personally I'm still thinking the best idea is keeping it close to your living areas.


----------



## musketjim (Dec 7, 2011)

We fill lots of water jugs about 1/2-3/4 and let them freeze. It's easier to thaw a smaller container by the wood stove than a large drum. Acquiring water will always be a necessity as I don't think you can reasonably store enough. Whether dilling holes in a lake or river or melting snow you need to have other options. Know your water sources in your area. They also have pumps that you can use in your normal well in a power out situation. Those are something I need to study up on also.


----------

