# Can you really make it alone?



## desertrider479 (Jun 5, 2010)

I seem to find that most people are planning a solo survival situation. Various types of shelters, lands, etc. to be defended by a person, a family, etc. 

I realize that this will work for a few for a short time, but do you really think the coming disaster will be a short term deal? I think that once it goes, it's going to be gone for the long term. How will we go about getting the current gangs and cartels back under control once they have tasted the freedom of running amok? Can you, as a single, really hold your own against a large group of gang bangers armed with AK's and full auto weapons?

I, for one, have the land, weapons, etc. that I need to survive, but I'm hoping that there will be enough people needing a place to join me in forming a decent sized commune. I'm no hippie but I understand the need for mutual defense and sustained living. My view is that we will be back to living like they did in the 1800's. Food, livestock, law enforcement will all have to be handled by a group large enough to build and defend it as well as have the knowlege base available to know how to do it all.

Am I in the minority or is the group the way to go?


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## kimbercdp45 (Jan 10, 2011)

interesting do tell more please


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## Asatrur (Dec 17, 2008)

I agree, community is what it will take to survive in the long run. Lone wolfs are killed or die off and then they are gone.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

There is no doubt that community always has been and will remain vital to thriving in the long run. The problem is that the SHTF world is so far removed from our current reality it is nearly impossible to guage who you can trust and who you can work with and who will be a danger to you once we are actually IN the SHTF world.

You have to plan and prepare to survive the initial SHTF with those that you KNOW that you can trust now. Then be prepared to work with whoever is left when the time presents itself. It could be days, weeks or months though probably not years after a SHTF event that you will have a pretty good idea of where folks stand. You will slowly expand your 'circle of trust' as opportunity allows. If you have the mindset that you wont work with anyone then you will not thrive and you will be lucky to survive in the long run.


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## Freyadog (Jan 27, 2010)

The problem that I see in the rural area that we live in is not many are storing up for what is to come. The gardens are small and we do not know of anyone that is actually STORING ample amounts of anything. And we are friends with quite a few. 

If dh and I had to go it alone then so be it. We can not do without many things as we are at the moment to put back just to have to feed and clothe the ones that we think could help keep us safe, who have put back nothing. We will just go further back in the mountains if push comes to shove.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

Freyadog said:


> The problem that I see in the rural area that we live in is not many are storing up for what is to come. The gardens are small and we do not know of anyone that is actually STORING ample amounts of anything. And we are friends with quite a few.
> 
> If dh and I had to go it alone then so be it. We can not do without many things as we are at the moment to put back just to have to feed and clothe the ones that we think could help keep us safe, who have put back nothing. We will just go further back in the mountains if push comes to shove.


But after an SHTF event you will see which neighbors are pillaging, which are catatonic, which are struggling to live -- in peace, which are prepared and thought you werent. Then you can work with those that are prepared and those that now realize the new reality calls for them to change their lifestyle and get prepared. You will find that you need to band up with those folks to protect yourselves against the neighbors that are pillaging those that are catatonic.

There are NOT enough people preparing now but when SHTF there will be those that see the error of their ways and they will be willing to work hard and learn to live in the new reality. If you cant work with them then they may be forced to give in to the pillagers... maybe even join them -- soon you are outnumbered and outgunned.

I would rather teach and encourage those that are willing to listen and work then to have to fight them off next week. Hungry folks quickly forget about civility.


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## Claymore5150 (Nov 17, 2011)

There is strength to be found in numbers. For long term survival, that is probably the most PRACTICAL way to go, especially for the human psyche. Nobody really WANTS to be "alone".

I think that preparing as a solo can have its benefits, as well. Preparing as a solo to become part of something larger if things get really bad would be the wisest move to make, but that is purely my own personal opinion.

Preparedness is what it is. Being or becoming prepared for something short term, mid term, long term, TEOTWAWKI being the final chapter.

Being prepared as a solo, there are some MAJOR benefits. You only answer to YOU. You don't have to justify anything/any purchase with a significant other. 
In addition to that, you have a lot less financial expenditure because you're only prepping for yourself, not a family of 2-6 or even more.

Short term and mid term, you are golden, provided that you set yourself up properly. The big blizzard that snowed in your community for the past two weeks is starting to melt away. You were warm and cozy, well fed, clean, and entertained while everyone else was sucking hind teat and having a rough go of it.
You know the routine. You barely made a dent in your storage stuff. Got to really test your gear and you made some mental notes on things that can be improved upon and laugh at those "gotta have" items that you didn't even touch. It was barely a hiccup for you.

That's all well and good for short and mid term stuff. Start looking more long term and even Post-Fan, and that daily routine will drive you stir crazy. Cabin fever is no joke. Chances are that you'll want to get out of your shell, go out and do some exploring and THAT is when you are at the weakest. Putting yourself at risk before your senses can get "in tune" with what has been going on OUT THERE. By that time, those that haven't had it "as good" as you have, are starting to get really desperate...and desperation causes people to do some things that they normally wouldn't do.

I do think, however, that if you were part of some type of regional mutual aid group or something of that nature, that when it does get to the point where you have decided it's time to didi on out of there, you'll have a group of like-minded people intent on achieving the same thing that you are.

Traveling incognito is MUCH easier to do as a solo, pending you know what you're doing to begin with. 
I used to be that guy, but now I'm a shepherd. I have a flock that I must figure a way to get to safer places if I have to...away from the hunting wolf packs and rogue dogs gone feral by necessity.

Setting up your communal compound IS a great idea. Your whole trick will be finding those like minded individuals with the proper skill sets that benefit multiple roles within your group.

It's like the Field of Dreams for preppers. If you build it, they will WANT to come, even if it is the "last resort", which most folks who have "Bug Out" plans would consider it anyhow. Most preps are at home, to weather the short and mid term, even long term, but it does help to have a plan when Mr. Murphy comes a knockin like he is prone to do, at the MOST inopportune times.


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## partdeux (Aug 3, 2011)

Interesting thought just came to my head, we have demanded and now expect the govt to take on the role of "community". If govt fails it will be absolute and total anarchy.

SWMBO was talking the other day and she said, should we be prepping for much longer term. I said it will be a waste of time and money. If it completely falls apart, we'll be lucky to live very long. We'll only be able to defend the homestead for a short period of time in an urban area with a lot of entitlement class. Getting out will be an issue also, partially with no real place to go, and difficulty getting there... where ever there is.


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## Freyadog (Jan 27, 2010)

TheAnt said:


> But after an SHTF event you will see which neighbors are pillaging, which are catatonic, which are struggling to live -- in peace, which are prepared and thought you werent. Then you can work with those that are prepared and those that now realize the new reality calls for them to change their lifestyle and get prepared. You will find that you need to band up with those folks to protect yourselves against the neighbors that are pillaging those that are catatonic.
> 
> There are NOT enough people preparing now but when SHTF there will be those that see the error of their ways and they will be willing to work hard and learn to live in the new reality. If you cant work with them then they may be forced to give in to the pillagers... maybe even join them -- soon you are outnumbered and outgunned.
> 
> I would rather teach and encourage those that are willing to listen and work then to have to fight them off next week. Hungry folks quickly forget about civility.


The neighbors that live anywhere close to us are basically living from week to week. The mindset is there is always Krogers. etc. They can buy 4 wheelers, large Christmas etc but dont have 2 extra cans of beans in the pantry.

We have talked to these people about the coming of whatever and they just blow it off. They live out of boxes and packages.

We did manage to talk a neighbor into raising 2 pigs this year. Instead of him learning how to process the meat he had it sent out to be prepared. They are very lazy up here on this side of the mountain. Don't break a sweat. As before we will go further back into the mountains if necessary. 'Cause what is around us in my honest opinion is not worth our effort. there isn't enough time left to guide these people because They know more than the next guy. all of them are that way and it would be worse inside the community than out.

And I for one am not going to share with someone who makes way more money than we do and doesnt have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. Hard from me yes...but this is how I feel. We are very giving people but I am not going to take out of my husbands and my mouth just to see if one of these people are going to get up. Heading further in.......


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## Claymore5150 (Nov 17, 2011)

I think the beauty of a predetermined MAG or "community" as plan B is a very viable option for when things go beyond the point of defending the homestead.

I don't really agree with initiation or entry fees for a MAG, though. I can see why a MAG would want SOP's on commo and ammo and maybe have some predetermined goals of "basic" food stores to be met, but see no real benefit of "buying in" to a MAG for $15 grand or something like that, unless it is a hardened fortress that is preexisting and already well developed, in which case most prepping families would never be able to afford to think about it in the first place.

Ant makes some dead on accurate points about the people in the neighborhood/local community and how they will categorize when it hits the fan.

partdeux hits home with solid points as well. Especially with me. I'm not urban, but I look out my window at a bunch of sheeplehood apartments all over the place. Lots of entitlements around. I just hope they go to the three food and mega stores within the 2 mile radius and leave us alone as we quietly try to be inconspicuous.

Love these forums...they force me to think outside of my little box. Good stuff!


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## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

partdeux said:


> Interesting thought just came to my head, we have demanded and now expect the govt to take on the role of "community". If govt fails it will be absolute and total anarchy.
> 
> SWMBO was talking the other day and she said, should we be prepping for much longer term. I said it will be a waste of time and money. If it completely falls apart, we'll be lucky to live very long. We'll only be able to defend the homestead for a short period of time in an urban area with a lot of entitlement class. Getting out will be an issue also, partially with no real place to go, and difficulty getting there... where ever there is.


This is my way of thinking also. Yes, I can prepare for a short term event but no way will I be able to hold out for more than maybe two years, on my own anyway. I would expect that the community I live in would band together and try to figure something out, not all of them but I know a few who would. Most would be gone in the first month, starvation or killed because they are waiting for someone to come rescue them.

I am not preparing to live the rest of my life in a true EOTWAWKI event. Yes, easy to say that now and who knows if the time comes what I would really do. I feel that if that type of even happens there will be many more predators than any of us expect. As pointed out in other threads when you are hungry, REALLY hungry you'd be surprised at what people can be like and do to survive. Those living miles and miles away from civilization in remote areas can do it but many like myself living in areas within a hour of a large city are doomed. My feeling is I can hold out for a while, I plan on one year of supplies supplemented with the garden and preservation to extend it to two years. Any longer than that and I am joining the zombies or enjoying the hospitality of a FEMA camp. Evan a semi large group can hold out for only so long against a larger more aggressive 'army' of zombies. The longer you hold out the more they think you have and the more aggressive they will try to take it from you.

Just my thinking on the matter, your mileage will vary.


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## Claymore5150 (Nov 17, 2011)

Freyadog, you are so right on so many levels. Same thing around here. See it every where I look.


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

Freyadog said:


> The neighbors that live anywhere close to us are basically living from week to week. The mindset is there is always Krogers. etc. They can buy 4 wheelers, large Christmas etc but dont have 2 extra cans of beans in the pantry.
> 
> We have talked to these people about the coming of whatever and they just blow it off. They live out of boxes and packages.
> 
> ...


 I have a whole road full of neighbors like you discribe, every morn about 6 AM they start flying by the house with their gas guzzeling 4X4 PUs going to the local convenient store to grab their coffee and egg on a hard roll because they have nothing in the house., It'll be interesting when the SHsTF for those people, even if we have another oil embargo like the one in 73.


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## Freyadog (Jan 27, 2010)

Point in case. Neighbor just called me with an absessed tooth. Now months ago I suggested that they buy fishmox to keep on hand. Blew it off until today when she was in so much pain and could not get an early dentist appointment. so now I have loaded her up with antibiotics. Says she is going to bring me the money to order her some. We shall see.


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## Claymore5150 (Nov 17, 2011)

Anyone notice the report that says people spend MORE for lunch and coffee than they do on their commute fuel in a year? WOW.
I know that I sure don't, but I see that in my office every day. We've got the Starbucks guy, comes in with one every morning....got the lunch bunch who order out every day. The company I work for is exceptional in the fact that they stock our fridge with sandwich stuff and chips EVERY WEEK at NO COST to the employees. Saves me a ton-O-money every year.


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## Freyadog (Jan 27, 2010)

My husband spends NO money for lunch either. I always make sure that I cook enough for our dinner so he can have a hot lunch at work. He takes 10$ a week out for soda or snack just in case he works over and gets the tummy grumbles before he gets home. 

Have a girlfriend that her and her husband eat out 2-3 times a day. Not week but day. And then sometimes a snack on top of all that a DQ. These two when TSHTF will not survive. There are so many wonderful people who walk around with their heads in the sand.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

I live in a neighborhood where I hope nothing SHTF ever happens while I am here. Half my neighbors dont speak much english and I dont speak much spanish. I sleep with one eye open at night and listen for the sound of breaking glass so I can show someone the muzzle flash of my .45.

That said, not everyone here is out to get me. Just like me, many of them are wary of those around them. Even if they are not currently prepping, just like me they will be willing to work hard and live honestly to see to it that their kids have something to eat. I will work with those folks. I didnt say I would give them my food -- but I would trade with them. I would teach them what I know. I bet they could teach me a couple things from old Mexico. I would rather be in a community that works together than be a lone wolf that has to take on everyone myself.

That said, if it happened that I was not welcomed for any reason or if there was nobody I could work with (because of them and not me) then I would do what I have to do to survive. I dont have a years worth of food but I can grow some stuff in the desert and I think I would have a better chance than most to survive simply because of my mindset.

My first choice would be to bug out across country before things got too bad, my second choice would be to be able to work with folks in my community (however I feel that may not pan out so well), my last choice would be to stand alone.


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## Immolatus (Feb 20, 2011)

kimbercdp45 said:


> interesting do tell more please


Huh?

I have a coupla issues.
The girl, who thinks I'm loony for doing any prepping, would never turn anyone away. Hey, she took *ME* in!
We keep to ourselves. we have a shared driveway, and have lived here the longest. I know nothing about the other 3 families. Nothing. 
Optimally finding out who around here is similar minded would be great. How to even go about this?
I did come up with what I thought was a decent idea, asking the HOA (you guys out there got it better than you imagine) to 'allow' us to start a community garden in some open space in the neighborhood that currently a grass field. Then I could at least find out something, people who are interested in planting food might be more likely to be of a like mind. I doubt I'll actually do this though, because it requires interaction with other people, and the HOA are kinda a-holes anyway.

Quick story-Our county allows for two bulk trash pickups a year. Our HOA has preempted this, because the community has our own trash pick up.
I call trying to get a special trash pickup when cleaning out the garage.
The county says I gotta call the HOA.
The HOA tells me that we used to have two days a year where we could take our junk to a designated spot, but it turned into a mess, people would keep bringing junk up there, so they stopped it. Apparently its still in the contract for the pick up, but I cant get it. So, I still pay for it, but I cant get it? "We'll bring it up at the next meeting" Yeah, right.


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## fat_frog (Oct 19, 2011)

desertrider479 said:


> .....I, for one, have the land, weapons, etc. that I need to survive, but I'm hoping that there will be enough people needing a place to join me in forming a decent sized commune..... Am I in the minority or is the group the way to go?


I would have gladly joined you if I had been still living in Thatcher...when I was going to EAC.  But, now...I live in PA... A bit too far to join.


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## Ponce (May 3, 2009)

I moved away from CA 12 years ago and into the woods of OR, love it here and at almost 72 I will die here.....have an outside fence to keep people out of my property and an inner fence 10 feet away from my home and all the way around it.....from the outside it looks only like a fence but if they were able to look in the inside they would think that I am waiting a mob of sombies (which I am), and I haven't finished yet.

My security system is better than the one at the White House and because no one lives around here my dog is my number one alarm...my cat is the second one because she thinks that shes a dog hahahahaahaha, and when ever the dog barks shes goes running to the window to see what is going on, and yes, I do live alone.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

A person alone would probably do best staying on the move or in the wild. It would be too hard to defend a home by one's self. 

I hear about people trying to form groups, for living together or just for mutual aid in a crisis. There are about as many different ways it's done as there are people doing it. 

As my husband likes to say, "Banishment from the community was often a death sentence" in the olden days. Meaning, it wasn't likely they'd make it on their own. I guess when the time comes new groups will be formed, alliances made, and trade centers created. Some will make it, some won't. All we can do is keep prepping and hope for the best.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Humans*

Humans are social animals.

We do not do well alone for extended periods of time.

Surviving alone is possable until and unless you are out numbered, injured , sick or insane.

You can die from lonelyness !


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## Genevieve (Sep 21, 2009)

I don't know about us going it alone, but I do know we won't be doing it with the azzhats around here. Some of the most worthless,lazy and government controlled excuses for humans you ever want to meet. seriously. I tell the truth.

There are a couple of people who we've been thinking about to ask if they wanted to come here if something goes down. And I have it in mind to maybe let some hints slip out to the fella that teaches a CCL class ( hubby just finished it and I'm next) around here. Also the guys at a local gunshop and the gun range they've started. Nothing overt, just some subtle hints. Haven't decided how to phrase them yet.


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

personally, I think people who think they can't make it alone do not have much confidence in their skills and preps.They are basically lonely people who need others to lean on. I plan on staying alone with just close family members who want to come here, if they're not emediate family, keep moving, I'd rather parish than have strangers or neighbors here. I have many acquaintances and a few good friends, but that would change if I had to look at them 24/7


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Your definition of alone*



lotsoflead said:


> personally, I think people who think they can't make it alone do not have much confidence in their skills and preps.They are basically lonely people who need others to lean on. I plan on staying alone with just close family members who want to come here, if they're not emediate family, keep moving, I'd rather parish than have strangers or neighbors here. I have many acquaintances and a few good friends, but that would change if I had to look at them 24/7


Your definition of the word alone is ,"I plan on staying alone with just close family members who want to come here," ? ?


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## RamboMoe (Dec 16, 2011)

It's very tough to survive on your own. I think a crew of 5-10 like-minded folks would be ideal.


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

BillM said:


> Your definition of the word alone is ,"I plan on staying alone with just close family members who want to come here," ? ?


 exactly right,grown kids, their kids and GGKs, all the relatives that have said, no problem,we'll just come to your place are in for a supprise, they better join the masses who may or may not try to come here. Everyone has had choices and have seen the way the world has changed in the past 21 yrs, they've had the same choices as me, prepare for hard times or suffer the consequences.We chose to sacrifice many trips,vacation and great times while they chose to live the high life thinking that the great times will only get better.

PS it might even be enjoyable to have a chat with some of them without a cell phone,I-Pod or some other eletronic device stuck in their ear or in their hand.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

At the risk of repeating myself, we are already in the midst of TSHTF. Its happening incrementally - slowly turning up the heat on that frog - where most don't even realize it. Go to most any survival site and the conversation is the same. People seem to think that they will wake up one morning and be in a Mad Max existence. Maybe something else will materialize, instead.

Maybe less time needs to be given to fighting zombies and more time devoted to how you are going to live in a totalitarian state under martial law as draconian regulations are dropped on us, your travel severely restricted and consumables are rationed. Your 401K worthless, as is your IRA, certificates, bonds, and stocks. The dollar worthless as well. Massive unemployment, bread lines, empty store shelves. "Dissidents" being rounded up. The only jobs will be going to work for this monster government. Thats not quite the "shoot and scoot", living off the land, bugging out scenario that dominates most discussions on forums such as this. This much closer to reality than Mad Max. All they need is an excuse, and Iran may end up being the excuse.

Already, DHS is yapping about how Iran is likely to conduct terrorist strikes inside the US. I think strikes are likely. Maybe even inevitable. But I think our own corrupt government will be behind them in order to clamp down much further on "We the People". Now that charges have been officially filed in a court of law regarding Soetoro's eligibility to be President, and are being pursued in other states as well, TPTB will have a need to speed the train up.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

Freyadog said:


> My husband spends NO money for lunch either. I always make sure that I cook enough for our dinner so he can have a hot lunch at work. He takes 10$ a week out for soda or snack just in case he works over and gets the tummy grumbles before he gets home.


I have posted this before, but, it might be time to revisit it. In my little cave (some call it an office without windows) I have a _lunchbox_ on my floor under my desk. Inside the lunch-box I have packs of instant-noodles, granola and granola-bars, Quaker instant-poridge, some hard-candies (like Werthers), some cookies (both home-made and store-bought), I have some condiments in there (ketchup-packets, chilli-packets), I have a mini gas cook-stove to warm up water and I have a water-bottle with built-in water-filter.

I try to keep at least two weeks of food in my lunchbox at all times, so, you are probably wondering how I can do that. I visited a local Autoparts-store (Canadian Tire) and picked up a large plastic tool-box and filled that with food. To make sure that my co-workers don't take any of the food, I have a lock on the front. You can find pictures of it under my desk here on the board in another thread ..

http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f2/stashing-good-idea-2028/

I also bring fresh food with me daily. The fresh-food normally consists of fresh fruits like apples, oranges, bananas (etc), maybe a sandwich, maybe leftovers from supper before, sometimes I'll bring the makings of hotdogs or hamburgers and cook them up fresh on my portable BBQ (yes, I sometimes bring my BBQ with me to work and cook-up a meal in the parking lot), sometimes I'll bring a mini-stove and make a nice meal of grilled-cheeze or something like that too.

There are times that I eat-out when I am at work, but, it isn't a regular thing and it isn't something that I can easily make (like donairs, YUMMY!) ...


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

Jezcruzen said:


> At the risk of repeating myself, we are already in the midst of TSHTF. Its happening incrementally - slowly turning up the heat on that frog - where most don't even realize it. Go to most any survival site and the conversation is the same. People seem to think that they will wake up one morning and be in a Mad Max existence. Maybe something else will materialize, instead.
> 
> Maybe less time needs to be given to fighting zombies and more time devoted to how you are going to live in a totalitarian state under martial law as draconian regulations are dropped on us, your travel severely restricted and consumables are rationed. Your 401K worthless, as is your IRA, certificates, bonds, and stocks. The dollar worthless as well. Massive unemployment, bread lines, empty store shelves. "Dissidents" being rounded up. The only jobs will be going to work for this monster government. Thats not quite the "shoot and scoot", living off the land, bugging out scenario that dominates most discussions on forums such as this. This much closer to reality than Mad Max. All they need is an excuse, and Iran may end up being the excuse.


I believe you are right on my friend. I still think this discussion has merit because it will be easier to survive ANYTHING with folks you can trust that are willing to help each other out. I hope to be near family (which I am not now) but in any case it will be helpful to have others nearby you can trust.


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## Possumfam (Apr 19, 2011)

I think most agree that a group/community is ideal. Many have tried and failed ....BUT.....I think that largely comes from a selfish attitude that "I don't have to put up with this!" Maybe today we don't, but tomorrow, we may have to put our personalities and preferences aside and work together in order to survive.

Freyadog - in one of your first posts you mentioned no one in your neighborhood stocking up - perhaps they just aren't advertising - idk - but one can hope.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

Possumfam said:


> I think most agree that a group/community is ideal. Many have tried and failed ....BUT.....I think that largely comes from a selfish attitude that "I don't have to put up with this!" Maybe today we don't, but tomorrow, we may have to put our personalities and preferences aside and work together in order to survive.
> 
> Freyadog - in one of your first posts you mentioned no one in your neighborhood stocking up - perhaps they just aren't advertising - idk - but one can hope.


My thoughts exactly. Thats why you cant hardly work with your neighbors NOW but you might be able to later. In a post-SHTF world (meaning the skin is boiling on the frog) folks will either be very willing to work and help or they will be the ones you are shooting at. Dont shoot at those willing to work and help or you wont make it.

You hit the nail on the head!


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## denniscarmichael (Nov 29, 2010)

I am prepper in that I am preparing for when the SHTF and how I will survive it. Now I'm a very poor person and cannot afford that lovely farm in the country or the cabin in the woods. I make enough money to put a roof over my head, food in my stomach, clothes on my back and enough gas to get to work and bug out. When I have a little cash left over I spend it on prepping, not eating out, mostly tools to live off the land and a little food put aside. I believe that WTSHTF the only way I'll survive in the long haul (which is the only important thing) is with a group of like-minded people who are willing to work their ass off to survive. When I come to these forums I come to learn new things that will help me survive. 

People will need each other someday, whether this year, next year or ten years from now and if they turn the people away, those who survive will later turn them away. There will be a lot more people who will bug out than bug in. The people who bug out will be the people who build communities because they will immediately start looking for people to help them. Many of these people will be worthless in a SHTF scenerio. But many more will be very valuable members of the community. You will never know until you talk to them. 

WTSHTF things will happen in waves that will take time. People who believe that the government will fix things will remain in their urban landscape until it is too late and they will die. People who leave when they have lost everything because they city is rioting will run without enough gas to get very far, or food to last will die and so on and so forth. Within a month at least 50% of the population of the United States will be dead and NOT buried. At least 50% of those left will be insane and probably not make it another month, more bodies. The ones left will be the strongest survivors. And most likely be hidden away as small groups in the mountains and large forests. Those of us who MUST bug out MUST gather together to survive or we won't survive.

One of the things that I am always looking for on these forums is for someone to pick a spot on the map in some backwoods or mountainous area where the bug outs can meet in each small region of the US and CA. If anyone has some ideas on places I would be interested.

We can't all have farms now but we will after TSHTF.

Dennis


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## Freyadog (Jan 27, 2010)

Possumfam said:


> I think most agree that a group/community is ideal. Many have tried and failed ....BUT.....I think that largely comes from a selfish attitude that "I don't have to put up with this!" Maybe today we don't, but tomorrow, we may have to put our personalities and preferences aside and work together in order to survive.
> 
> Freyadog - in one of your first posts you mentioned no one in your neighborhood stocking up - perhaps they just aren't advertising - idk - but one can hope.


We know these people very very well. Been here a long time. When people are 2-3 months behind in their morgages, have to borrow 20$ for gas to get to work, living off their in-laws who have just a tad more than they do, it is called not stocking up because there is nothing left to stock up with. Not very productive gardens to speak of. Have one neighbor who is so lazy he let his garden die because he was too lazy to water the damn thing. Some none at all. These people are living from week to week. They can buy beer, drugs, buy expensive birthday presents but maybe on a good day have 2 weeks of groceries to stretch. They are box and package families and believe me when I say this I do feel sorry for them. Hard as it sounds they are not getting any of ours. sorry if this sounds hard-hearted but I live amongst all of this so I kknow what I will do and what I won't.


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## desertrider479 (Jun 5, 2010)

Fat Frog if you lived in Thatcher and went to EAC you probably know my wife Diane. It's never too far if it means security, it's just a matter of leaving in time.


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## AlabamaGal (Dec 27, 2011)

Jezcruzen said:


> At the risk of repeating myself, we are already in the midst of TSHTF. Its happening incrementally - slowly turning up the heat on that frog - where most don't even realize it. Go to most any survival site and the conversation is the same. People seem to think that they will wake up one morning and be in a Mad Max existence. Maybe something else will materialize, instead.


Agreed. I don't have the same level of despair as Jen does, but I don't expect things in the US to get better in the long run. We may have some "up" years to come, maybe even decades, but I think western civ is falling and the east is rising, most people are in denial, and no political party or person is going to save us.

In the meantime, those of us in the west had better get used to having less to waste and be unappreciative of. Certainly in the past few years many people here have been in the middle of their very own personal SHTF in the form of extended unemployment with shrinking chances of being employable. Or had regional disasters to deal with, like Katrina, flooding on the Mississippi, Irene and the tornadoes in the southeast -- these are the kinds of disasters that happen every year. It takes FEMA about 3 days to find their ass with both hands and even then they can only handle one disaster at a time. When Irene hit the northeast, FEMA packed up and left the southeast precisely because they couldn't help two places at once.

Don't wait for the zombies to come to find out if you can make it, and especially don't wait to learn which neighbors you can rely on.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

"We can't all have farms now but we will after TSHTF.

Dennis"

And how are you going to get that farm, Dennis? 

You see, Dennis... I'm not a bug out fan. It might be last ditch for some, and the only plan for others. Problem is, most don't have a real place of refuge to bug out to. The mountains and forests are not really bug out friendly, and in a very short time those who make it to those sorts of locations will quickly find that out. Heck, even survival experts can only survive for a very short time, and they have forgotten more than the average "bugging out" city dweller will ever know. I think that after that last MRE is gone, or the last can of tuna from that BOB is gone, those of you roaming around out there in the hinterlands will not form any community. You may,however, form gangs and begin predating on those who have more than you.

Please feel free to give away as much of your supplies as you want. Once you begin helping out one or two, you will be inundated. It reminds me of a saying - No good deed goes unpunished. I think I have met my Christian duty in my attempts to warn people to prepare. (Did Noah open the door of the ark and allow the heathen in? No.) They all had the same opportunity I did to prepare, and most had more resources to do so than me. But few did.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

Why is it so easy to spot a city person that has never had any experience living in the country. 

Farmers and Ranchers are not what they appear to be. City people that plan to BO to the country will have a major shock coming if they think they will take over a farm or ranch. Farmers and Ranchers are very close and will come to the aid of other Farmers and Ranchers that need help. I am not a farmer but I personaly know several. The ones I know are very smart, very tough, hard working, and good people but don't let that fool you, they can also be very mean.

Also, be aware of farm dogs, These are not city dogs that live in a house. They are working dogs that live outside and roam the farm yards at night. If you try to sneak up on to the proberty you are toast. Farm dogs don't bark they just attack, If you have ever been attacked by dogs you know why I'm saying this.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

While you could survive alone, it would be because of dumb luck!! Two (adults) with children can't even provide for a decent security watch let alone do all the other things necessary to survive. And if you are one of these small group survivalist people I would think again here too. A small group might be able to provide security, but unless you have a very strategic location with lots of natural and man made advantages, all a small group can do is guard--food production (farming) would I believe require a much larger security footprint as well as more people in the labor force, not to mention other areas of consern.

In SHTF skills and labor will be almost as valuable as food, but unlike food these are renewable resources.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

*People are assets*



denniscarmichael said:


> ...I believe that WTSHTF the only way I'll survive in the long haul (which is the only important thing) is with a group of like-minded people who are willing to work their ass off to survive. When I come to these forums I come to learn new things that will help me survive.
> 
> People will need each other someday, whether this year, next year or ten years from now and if they turn the people away, those who survive will later turn them away. There will be a lot more people who will bug out than bug in. The people who bug out will be the people who build communities because they will immediately start looking for people to help them. Many of these people will be worthless in a SHTF scenerio. But many more will be very valuable members of the community. You will never know until you talk to them.
> 
> ...We can't all have farms now but we will after TSHTF.


I don't think Dennis is talking about taking anyone's farm by force. I think Dennis point is that he hopes to find a farm where his skills and willingness to work hard will earn him a place of refuge.

Not everyone can afford JW Rawles level preps, I know I can't, and while telling people about the flood is important, I didn't reading anything about Noah turning people away from the ark either. I am fortunate enough to have a bug out retreat waiting and stocked, but I know for a fact that in a serious situation (TEOTWAWKI) I am going to need my family, friends, neighbors, and even honest hard working strangers to survive long term. Its not about hand outs its about hand ups.

If things get bad, like Mad Max bad, just think about the ground you will need to defend 24/7. Can you keep ALERT eyes on every approach to your property? Can you guard the approaches that aren't easy? Can you maintain this even if a man gets sick, injured, or dies? I think too many of us have taken for granted the gift that this country has experienced of relative peace, law, and order. We have been lulled into complacency by prosperity and the safety multiple levels of law enforcement provides and the ready availability of medical care. When that's gone it will all be left for you. Are you willing to risk your children's lives betting that on a 12 or even 8 hour watch you won't be tempted to fall asleep? What about farming, how many crops you need to plant for your family to live for a year? Do you have enough hands to work the fields and eyes (and guns) to protect them?

People are an asset, and reliable people may prove their weight in Gold, even if they bring little or no preps with them.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

I can't imagine those who laughed at Noah not seeking out the only refuge available to them once the waters began to rise. Its human nature. But, its not worth arguing over, but everyone understands the message.

I have put my own life at risk for people that I didn't even know before. But it would be irresponsible of me to put the lives of my family at risk, and that is exactly what I would be doing by handing out our limited food and supplies to any John or Jane Doe knocking on the door looking for help during a crisis like what is being discussed here. 

I'm sure that the recipients of my charity would be grateful. So grateful that they might camp just down the road and be back the next day asking for more. How do you think they would react if I then said, "No"? Or, they could pass the word to other travelers that the guy in the fifth house has food. What then?

Too many have the idea that if they have a bag of seeds they can just plant a garden and feed themselves with what magically pops up out of the ground. I see it advertised every day - "Hurry and order your one acre survival garden now!" Only the "old hands" consider what to plant. How much to plant to allow for loss. When to plant, and how to save what they grow. Few have even the means to turn the soil - tractor w/ bottom plow or a tiller large enough, fuel, or even enough land to cultivate. Doing it by hand is brutal hard work even if they have the required hand tools. It takes a large garden when you consider likely crop loss to feed a family throughout the year.

Those "bugging out" to a favorite wilderness area "loaded with game"... well, I'm just not going to even get started on that nonsense.

Look, I have enough put aside to feed my family for a number of months. We could go a year if I can supplement it with some fresh vegetables, a few small animals I could trap, and small fish out of the creek using a seine. But I am under no illusion that we could begin a long-term sustained existence, especially after something like an EMP event. Our hope would be that some form of government and economy would take root and be able to provide some sort of relief within a year. I can't help but think most of you are in the same shape.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

Jezcruzen said:


> I have put my own life at risk for people that I didn't even know before. But it would be irresponsible of me to put the lives of my family at risk, and that is exactly what I would be doing by handing out our limited food and supplies to any John or Jane Doe knocking on the door looking for help during a crisis like what is being discussed here.


Jezcruzen;

I think your logic and common sense approach is spot-on.

Food for thought. By putting your life at risk by helping strangers you are putting your families life at risk. If something happened to you how would your family do?


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