# Wheat for storage



## bunkerbob (Sep 29, 2009)

As some of you know I just finished the rebuild of my powered CS Bell grist mill, added a manual Marga grain roller and manual hand flour mill to the mill table. Now I can mill flour of all types, wheat, corn, rye... and roll my own oats, rice, corn for cereals.
The problem I had was getting the grain locally, Winco our local bulk food store carried most grain including hard red wheat berries but not the soft white. The Bishops storehouse was about an hour and half away and with fuel prices the way they are made it expensive.
I ordered some of the soft wheat from Honeyville, but again kinda expensive.
Good news my local Wallyworld started carrying both the hard red and soft white 25# in stock.


----------



## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

bunkerbob said:


> As some of you know I just finished the rebuild of my powered CS Bell grist mill, added a manual Marga grain roller and manual hand flour mill to the mill table. Now I can mill flour of all types, wheat, corn, rye... and roll my own oats, rice, corn for cereals.
> The problem I had was getting the grain locally, Winco our local bulk food store carried most grain including hard red wheat berries but not the soft white. The Bishops storehouse was about an hour and half away and with fuel prices the way they are made it expensive.
> I ordered some of the soft wheat from Honeyville, but again kinda expensive.
> Good news my local Wallyworld started carrying both the hard red and soft white 25# in stock.


just think, the people 3,4 hundred yrs ago ate and survived on any wheat they found, it probably didn't taste anything like we're used to today but when time are tough, you do what you have to do. I have many 5 gal buckets sealed from the 3 major on line sellers but I also have a quarter ton sealed from Blue Seal Feeds right off their floor in 50 pound sacks., I did spend some time winnowing it in front of a fan and I have no idea what kind it is nor did the feed store, but I do know it makes bread with the right ingredients, I also pick up corn locally and grind it with no problems long as it hasn't been treated with anything.


----------



## goshengirl (Dec 18, 2010)

Glad you found a resource, Bob - and thanks for letting us know. In my area Walmart went from not carrying any wheat berries, to carrying hard red and hard white, to now just carrying hard white. I guess there aren't enough people in this area buying wheat berries for them to carry more than one kind. Now after reading your post, I'm hopeful they'll try soft white in our area for a while - at least long enough for me to stock up, lol!


----------



## mdprepper (Jan 22, 2010)

I still have not found a good local source for wheat. Just the local health food store that sells it for around $3 per pound. 

I went to my local Walmart to see if they had any of the LTS foods others had posted about. Mine has none of it.


----------



## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

mdprepper said:


> I still have not found a good local source for wheat. Just the local health food store that sells it for around $3 per pound.


You can try the feed stores, at $3.00 per pound, thats close to $200.00 per bushel for grain that sells for a ballpark price of $7.00 per bushel on the open market.


----------



## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

I buy the hard red wheat @ about 10.00 per fifty pound sack at my local feed store .
If you pack it in mylar bags put in the approprate amount of Oxygen depleaters and vacume out the air with a vacume cleaner prior to sealing the bag, it will keep 30 years. I store it in five gal buckets.
You need a grinder and a single screen sifter and you can make your own flour as needed.


----------



## md1911 (Feb 9, 2012)

BillM said:


> I buy the hard red wheat @ about 10.00 per fifty pound sack at my local feed store .
> If you pack it in mylar bags put in the approprate amount of Oxygen depleaters and vacume out the air with a vacume cleaner prior to sealing the bag, it will keep 30 years. I store it in five gal buckets.
> You need a grinder and a single screen sifter and you can make your own flour as needed.


That's a good idea but can you tell me wete to buy mylar bags and o2 absorbers


----------



## bunkerbob (Sep 29, 2009)

BillM said:


> I buy the hard red wheat @ about 10.00 per fifty pound sack at my local feed store .
> If you pack it in mylar bags put in the approprate amount of Oxygen depleaters and vacume out the air with a vacume cleaner prior to sealing the bag, it will keep 30 years. I store it in five gal buckets.
> You need a grinder and a single screen sifter and you can make your own flour as needed.


I've been storing wheat since the mid 70's with CO2 and sometimes a bay leaf or so on the top, never had a single berry go bad. I open the 5 gal container either metal or plastic, about once a year or so and taste test them, then reapply CO2 from the bottom up with a copper tube attached to a valve, always test with lighter at top.


----------



## mdprepper (Jan 22, 2010)

Davarm said:


> You can try the feed stores, at $3.00 per pound, thats close to $200.00 per bushel for grain that sells for a ballpark price of $7.00 per bushel on the open market.


I am sure you would not have suggested it if it wasn't safe for human consumption, but I have to ask anyway. Is it safe? Do they "treat" it with anything for animal use? Or is it just not as "clean" (chaff, debris) as it would be for human use? Sorry for the stupid questions.


----------



## bunkerbob (Sep 29, 2009)

mdprepper said:


> I am sure you would not have suggested it if it wasn't safe for human consumption, but I have to ask anyway. Is it safe? Do they "treat" it with anything for animal use? Or is it just not as "clean" (chaff, debris) as it would be for human use? Sorry for the stupid questions.


Just as a note 'feed stores' cannot carry treated seed or grain for planting, at least here in California. I buy whole corn from the feed store for storage. I don't think my body will reject it if I grind some in a WSTF situation.:dunno:


----------



## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

I am just wondering how you power your mill? Is it run from a small gas-motor or do you plug it into your current-bush? I have been hunting my local Walmart and my local warehouse for wheat-berries, but, haven't found either that will carry it.

Here in Canada, it seems difficult to get wheat due to a government-based monopoly (Canadian Wheat Board - CWB) controlling all buying and selling of the wheat. There is a call to dismantle the wheat-board and it might be done - at that point in time, it might become easier to find wheat, but, at the same time, it might become significantly more expensive ... :gaah:


----------



## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Internet*



md1911 said:


> That's a good idea but can you tell me wete to buy mylar bags and o2 absorbers


Just do an internet search. there are a myriad of companys that sell Mylar bags and O2 absorbers. fed Ex will bring them right to you.


----------



## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

NaeKid said:


> I am just wondering how you power your mill? Is it run from a small gas-motor or do you plug it into your current-bush? I have been hunting my local Walmart and my local warehouse for wheat-berries, but, haven't found either that will carry it.
> 
> Here in Canada, it seems difficult to get wheat due to a government-based monopoly (Canadian Wheat Board - CWB) controlling all buying and selling of the wheat. There is a call to dismantle the wheat-board and it might be done - at that point in time, it might become easier to find wheat, but, at the same time, it might become significantly more expensive ... :gaah:


Nakid, why don't you find a farmer that grows it and just buy some wheat directly from him?

I have a hand crank on my mill. In about ten miniuts I can grind all the corn meal and flour I need for a day or two.


----------



## bunkerbob (Sep 29, 2009)

NaeKid said:


> I am just wondering how you power your mill? Is it run from a small gas-motor or do you plug it into your current-bush? I have been hunting my local Walmart and my local warehouse for wheat-berries, but, haven't found either that will carry it.
> 
> Here in Canada, it seems difficult to get wheat due to a government-based monopoly (Canadian Wheat Board - CWB) controlling all buying and selling of the wheat. There is a call to dismantle the wheat-board and it might be done - at that point in time, it might become easier to find wheat, but, at the same time, it might become significantly more expensive ... :gaah:


Just a 1 1/2 hp elect motor, remember I have pleanty of power, I also have a hand cranked one at the other end.


----------



## md1911 (Feb 9, 2012)

BillM said:


> Just do an internet search. there are a myriad of companys that sell Mylar bags and O2 absorbers. fed Ex will bring them right to you.


Thanks for the information


----------



## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

bunkerbob said:


> Just a 1 1/2 hp elect motor, remember I have pleanty of power, I also have a hand cranked one at the other end.


Ahh .. so you plug it into your current-bush then ... nice! :beercheer:


----------



## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

mdprepper said:


> I am sure you would not have suggested it if it wasn't safe for human consumption, but I have to ask anyway. Is it safe? Do they "treat" it with anything for animal use? Or is it just not as "clean" (chaff, debris) as it would be for human use? Sorry for the stupid questions.


I know the owner of the feed store that I buy from and the answer to the question in my case is "no it is not treated". It does have some debris in it, chaff, an occasional piece of corn stalk or cob but nothing that would be out of place in a bag of grain.

The concern with feed store grain, as someone in another thread pointed out, is Aflatoxin. It is the by product of mold that can be found in grain. I made inquiries to a number of food grain suppliers to see if their grain was tested and all replied "NO, not unless their is cause to". So, It seems a pretty even shot between feed store and food grain suppliers as far as safety goes.

Aflatoxin will break down to harmless parts at temperatures above 180 deg F, so if you are going to cook your grain, most people don't eat it raw, should be ok even if it is present.


----------



## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

Davarm said:


> It does have some debris in it, chaff, an occasional piece of corn stalk or cob


And a few dead insects. 

I buy feed store wheat too. $10.00 for a 50# sack.


----------



## neldarez (Apr 10, 2011)

md1911 said:


> That's a good idea but can you tell me wete to buy mylar bags and o2 absorbers


usa emergency supply is where I personally have found the best prices.


----------



## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

Davarm said:


> The concern with feed store grain, as someone in another thread pointed out, is Aflatoxin. It is the by product of mold that can be found in grain. I made inquiries to a number of food grain suppliers to see if their grain was tested and all replied "NO, not unless their is cause to". So, It seems a pretty even shot between feed store and food grain suppliers as far as safety goes.
> 
> Aflatoxin will break down to harmless parts at temperatures above 180 deg F, so if you are going to cook your grain, most people don't eat it raw, should be ok even if it is present.


You're paying for safety and convenience. Simple as that. If you don't mind the inconvenience of heat treating your own grain and are willing to take the chance that you haven't eliminated all aflatoxin present then you get a better deal. You gamble and by gambling you save money. This applies to pretty much everything in commerce. Don't want to butcher your own meat, no problem, a supermarket has meat nicely packaged for you, you just have to pay people to do work for you.

There is no exorbitant profit being reaped (pun intended) in the human versus animal grain market - it costs more money to store and process grain destined for human consumption because the standards and processes are more exacting.

Here's Food Safety Watch on Aflatoxin's stability in foods:

*Stability in foods*

Aflatoxins are quite stable compounds and survive relatively high temperatures with little degradation. Their heat stability is influenced by other factors, such as moisture level and pH, but heating or cooking processes cannot be relied upon to destroy aflatoxins. *For example, roasting green coffee at 180oC for 10 minutes gave only a 50% reduction in aflatoxin B1 level.*

The stability of aflatoxin M1 in milk fermentation processes has also been studied and although appreciable losses do occur, significant quantities of the toxin were found to remain in both cheese and yoghurt.

Aflatoxins can be destroyed by alkaline and acid hydrolysis and by the action of oxidising agents. However, in many cases, the resulting by-products also carry a risk of toxicity, or have not been identified

*Control Options*

The ability of aflatoxin-producing fungi to grow on a wide range of food commodities and the stability of aflatoxins in foods *mean that control is best achieved by measures designed to prevent the contamination of crops in the field and during storage*, or detection and removal of contaminated material from the food supply chain.​
Those control procedures cost money and that's what you're paying for.


----------



## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

I just did the conversion: 180 C = 356 F.


----------



## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*The Mold*

The mold only poses a danger to people who eat sprouted grain that is uncooked.

Since I bake mine it dosen't matter.

The sifter is to eleminate the bugs and the wheat chaf.

:2thumb:


----------



## longtime (Nov 22, 2009)

A real good place to start your search. The PDF under Walmart distributers list the stores that carry wheat.

http://www.wheatmontana.com/dealer.php


----------



## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

BillM said:


> The mold only poses a danger to people who eat sprouted grain that is uncooked.
> 
> Since I bake mine it dosen't matter.
> 
> ...


It doesn't matter? That's fine, I'm certainly not going to intrude on your life and your risk decisions, but you shouldn't make such definitive statements with respect to risk for they come across as though you are saying that risk is eliminated. It's not.

Point #1:

To investigate the effects of various cooking treatments such as washing, heating and steaming on the reduction of aflatoxin toxicity, a simultaneous analytical method for aflatoxin B1, B2, G1, G2 was established using high performance liquid chromatography (HPLC) with a fluorescence detector. The levels of aflatoxin B1 (AFB1) spiked in wheat-three varieties of United States (US) wheat and two varieties of Korean wheat-were analyzed according to washing time and heating temperature. Reduction of AFB1 toxicity was directly proportional to washing time in both Korean and US wheat. The concentration of AFB1 was reduced more by heating than washing treatment.* The level of AFB1 in dried wheat was decreased to 50% and 90% by heating at 150 and 200 °C, respectively.* However, the reduction of AFB1 in wet wheat in which water (10%) was intentionally added was higher by heating than in dried wheat. The reduction of AFB1 was increased by 8% and 23% in 10% water-added US wheat (soft red white wheat) and Korean wheat (Anbaekmil) compared to dried US and Korean wheat, respectively, through heat treatment. Traditional processing used in Korean foods such as Sujebi (a soup with wheat flakes) and steamed bread caused 71% and 43% decrease in aflatoxin B1 content.​
150 C = 302 F and 200 C= 392 F

If you're baking bread then it's likely that your temperatures meet or exceed 200C and you're likely eliminating about 90% of the Aflatoxin that MAY be present in your feed wheat. That's the thing - you're flying blind on whether your animal feed wheat has aflatoxin or not and if it does how much is present.

Point #2:

For years grain merchants in our area have watched for aflatoxin in corn, but this year they found it in wheat and barley. This concerns farmers as they hope to realize maximum value from their crop and are disappointed to find it discounted when quality problems arise. I*f wheat grades milling quality then it moves into the human food chain. If it grades feed quality then it is discounted and moved into livestock feed channels.* Most barley is used in livestock feed anyway, even if it is top quality.

Aflatoxin contaminated small grain can be used for feed if we know what amount of toxin the grain contains. To determine this content, I have used the Virginia Maryland Regional College of Veterinary Medicine toxicology lab to run samples. There are other methods as well to determine the suitability of small grain for animal feed. *Once the concentration is determined, you can dilute feed with other ingredients so that is safe for livestock.* Each species has a different tolerance for aflatoxins and custom testing and feed formulation is required to properly match your needs with each situation. We recommend that dairy cattle not consume any aflatoxin contaminated grain.​
Grain deemed unfit for human consumption still has economic value which is why it isn't destroyed. The farmers are still able to sell their aflatoxin tainted grain for animal feed. They just can't sell it for the higher price that they get for milling quality grain.

So, it's all about your personal risk tolerance - we know that animal feed has a higher likelihood of having aflatoxin present in the grains because the animal feed food chain is where such grains are sent.

You can reduce, and possibly eliminate, aflatoxin presence by heat treatment but you may not get all of it. If you don't get all of it, then you're still dealing with a very potent carcinogen.

I'm not really up to speed on third world cooking practices but the high mortality rate of aflatoxin poisoning is something that people should factor into their money saving strategies:

A notable outbreak occurred in India in 1974 when almost 400 people became ill with fever and jaundice after eating maize contaminated with between 0.25 and 15 mg/kg aflatoxin and more than 100 died. At least two major outbreaks have also occurred in Kenya, most recently in 2004 when 317 people were affected and 125 died, probably as a result of eating contaminated maize.​
The US limit on aflatoxin is 20 parts per billion for human consumption. Depending on the particulars of the grains and the intended animal which will consume the feed, the allowable limits can be 300 parts per billion.

Keep in mind that these are limits, not guarantees that aflatoxin is present in the food or feed you buy. The probability of buying food with NO aflatoxin present is higher than buying feed with NO, or LOW, aflatoxin present.

Take a worse case scenario and presume that you are buying feed grain with 300 ppb aflatoxin and that you can eliminate 90% of that toxicity by cooking the grain at a temperature higher than 392F. Your finished food product might have anywhere from 0 ppb to 30 ppb aflatoxin still present. You don't know how much is present unless you send your food to a lab. With grain categorized for human consumption you're looking at a worst case scenario of 20 ppb of alfatoxin. Again assume that you destroy 90% by cooking. Now your final food product has anywhere from 0 ppb to 2 ppb. After cooking, the ratio between feed grain and human grain is 15:1 at the worst to no difference at the best. That's your range but we don't know what values to assign to the probabilities that are bounded by that range. Your probability of starting with a grain with NO aflatoxin present is much higher for human grain than for feed grain.

Again I go back to my initial point - the reason that grain in the human food chain is priced higher than grain in the animal food chain is not because there is price gouging going on, it's because there are more controls, tests, better procedures, etc which all cost money to implement. You're paying for safer levels and the convenience of not having to detoxify your grain yourself. You're also paying for increased levels of probability that your food isn't loaded with mycotoxins.

How you make your risk/reward decision isn't any of my business, but don't labor under the impression that this is a NO-RISK money saving deal. Cancer takes a while to develop so your personal decisions might be that it's better to save money while still young and vigorous and take a risk of liver cancer when one is older because if it's not liver cancer that kills you at that age it's just as likely to be a heart attack or a stroke of what have you. Whatever reasoning that people employ should at least be informed by evidence.


----------



## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

One more study to throw into the pot:

Each cereal sample was spiked with each mycotoxins at 3-95 ppb and the thermal treatments were done in oven at *220 DegC *(dry heat) or in autoclave (121 DegC; 1.1 Pa; wet heat) for 5 and 15 min. The residual mycotoxins were quantified by thin-layer chromatog. after chem. derivatization. The thermal treatments and exposure time decreased the levels of mycotoxins below the detection limits in *45* and 64% of the studied conditions for *aflatoxin B1* and ochratoxin A, resp​.

220C = 428F

The summary doesn't specify what the detection limit the researchers were using for aflatoxin in this study but they do note that only 45% of their samples were under the detection limit, meaning that 55% of their samples still had some level of alfatoxin present after being heat treated at 428F.

If you're baking your bread at 625F alongside the lead that you're melting in your oven, then you're probably also destroying most of the aflatoxin that may be present in your grain/flour. Lower temperatures create more uncertainty.


----------



## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Bob*



Bobbb said:


> One more study to throw into the pot:
> 
> Each cereal sample was spiked with each mycotoxins at 3-95 ppb and the thermal treatments were done in oven at *220 DegC *(dry heat) or in autoclave (121 DegC; 1.1 Pa; wet heat) for 5 and 15 min. The residual mycotoxins were quantified by thin-layer chromatog. after chem. derivatization. The thermal treatments and exposure time decreased the levels of mycotoxins below the detection limits in *45* and 64% of the studied conditions for *aflatoxin B1* and ochratoxin A, resp​.
> 
> ...


I am not an expert and you obviously are and I have no argument to your scientific expertise.

The red wheat I purchase is stored as it comes from the field.

It is checked for it's moisture content prior to storage at the mill.

When I get it , I store it in mylar bags, remove the air via a vacume and place oxygen depleaters in the bag.

After this, no mold groth is possable as mold requires a humidity level above 60 % relitive humidity , darkness and 24 hours time to develop.

I bake my bread at 400 deg. F for 20 miniuts.

I supose that it is still possable to have some level of toxin from mold that was present but that is just a calculated risk I am willing to take.

If sociaty collapses and we are forced to grow our own wheat and corn, how are we going to conduct these tests ?

We will just have to rely on our nose and observation to determin the quality of our food.


----------



## DJgang (Apr 10, 2011)

So, Bobbb, this hydrolysis or whatever treatment is done to the wheat after harvested? And then that wheat will be marked for human consumption? Correct?

I am just curious as well of the seed itself is different. Monsanto, I do not trust. I wish I could find a hearty strain of wheat and just plant it myself, but I don't really have the means as of yet. But that does give me an idea. The wheat strains put there now are so far removed for original wheat, There may be a market for ancient wheat.

Anyway, just rambling. If someone is more educated on the subject, I am all ears.

Oh, BillM, thanks for the info on oxygen absorbers. I will be sealing up those two buckets today!


----------



## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

Why can you buy hard red or white wheat in your store and when I do a search for it on their web site it doesn't even come up as an option? If I could do a site-to-store delivery I'd do it in a second. My store barely stocks whole wheat flour let alone any whole grains.


----------



## siletz (Aug 23, 2011)

I just wanted to comment on your mill set-up. It looks great! Thanks for sharing the pic.


----------



## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

Bottom line for me, dont trust Monsanto and never will. I wont boycott GMO's but will certainly choose non GMOd foods over them and will continue to get my grain from my local feed store source until I have cause not to(the bugs are just a little more meat in the soup).

I dont think everyones minds are going to to be changed because of these posts, mine is not, the information I have read directly opposes some of the facts stated here so you just have to pick your sources and either trust them or not.

The good thing about these discussions is that information from many points of view are are is being presented and read so that no one is in the dark on the issue and can make decisions with as much info as possible.

By the way, bunkerbob, like your mill table.


----------



## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

BillM said:


> I bake my bread at 400 deg. F for 20 miniuts.
> 
> I supose that it is still possable to have some level of toxin from mold that was present but that is just a calculated risk I am willing to take.


Which was my point. You are taking a calculated risk rather than enjoying no risk. That decision is yours to make.

All I wanted to stress was that there is No Free Lunch. When you pay less money for feed-grade grains than you do for Human Grade Grains, you're foregoing processes which direct healthier, less toxic grains toward the human food chain. The greater care, testing, and storing cost money to perform. These aren't needless processes inserted just to make work for people, they serve a purpose, just like all of the testing that is performed on drugs during clinical trials - people want to know that the drugs that they take are the product of rigorous testing rather than just slap-dash products put out for the lowest possible amount of money.



> If sociaty collapses and we are forced to grow our own wheat and corn, how are we going to conduct these tests ?


Clearly we won't and our life expectancy will fall. People will die from diabetes, they'll die from getting a cut that becomes infected with tetanus because there was no one around to fabricate a tetanus vaccine. Life will be harder and shorter without all the pampering that society provides us all.


----------



## ContinualHarvest (Feb 19, 2012)

bunkerbob said:


> As some of you know I just finished the rebuild of my powered CS Bell grist mill, added a manual Marga grain roller and manual hand flour mill to the mill table. Now I can mill flour of all types, wheat, corn, rye... and roll my own oats, rice, corn for cereals.
> The problem I had was getting the grain locally, Winco our local bulk food store carried most grain including hard red wheat berries but not the soft white. The Bishops storehouse was about an hour and half away and with fuel prices the way they are made it expensive.
> I ordered some of the soft wheat from Honeyville, but again kinda expensive.
> Good news my local Wallyworld started carrying both the hard red and soft white 25# in stock.


That's a nice mill. Homebrewer?


----------



## bunkerbob (Sep 29, 2009)

ContinualHarvest said:


> That's a nice mill. Homebrewer?


 I do homebrew but mainly from kits. The mill is for flour.


----------

