# Ethics of Scavenging/Looting



## PrepperCentral (May 25, 2012)

I wrote an article discussing scavenging/looting enjoy and please discuss here and leave some love on my blog if you enjoyed it. My Blog Post

Ethics of Scavenging/Looting when SHTF
No one likes to think about difficult situations. It is perfectly natural for humans to want to avoid conflict and, for the most part, do the right thing. Even in times of great need it can be hard for one to stray from their moral path. In a survival situation your moral boundaries are sure to be pushed.

Stealing to Survive
Many of you may remember a particular news story following hurricane Katrina. News teams were scrambling to cover every possible angle of this horrible disaster, as the nation watched in horror. A story came on telling of the struggles of people seeking supplies. The picture showed white families gathering food, clothing, and whatever else they could grab. After a short commercial break the story continued, yet it took a turn. They pictured an African-american man carrying supplies while waist deep in flood water, only now the tune had changed from scavenging for survival to looting for gain. The uproar of this ignited many controversies on the ethics of scavenging and where the line is crossed into looting.

There's no doubt that in any survival situation there's going to be a time when your going to need to find supplies. When you head on down to your local Wally-Mart only to remember that SHTF, your going to need an alternate source. Nature has many things to offer, like a nearly unlimited supply of food and water if you know where to look, and basic tools or the means to make tools. But what do you do when you need what nature cant provide?

Scavenging
If your short on supplies, the only thing on your mind is how to get more. There are no more stores, no more restaurants, no more easy life. Now your going to go out and find what you need the hard way. This can be an intimidating thought for the unprepared, and it's difficult to know where to start. Ill start by eliminating any major retail store, and I will tell you why. When SHTF, communities will instantly flock to their local stores to grab everything they need. This is the initial rush, where common necessities will be out of stock almost overnight. Following the initial rush, people will start taking whatever they can get there hands on, flat screens, lawn mowers, vacuums even. I expect most stores will be picked dry in under 1 week if things get extreme, possibly under a day or two.

Now if their aren't any stores left to 'shop' from, where else can you find supplies? This is where some major moral decisions have to be made. When disaster hits a great number of people elect to leave their homes to gather with family elsewhere, or simply flee to a potentially safer place. Now your going to have to ask yourself a serious question, are you willing to take what you need to survive? Abandoned homes can be a valuable source of supplies, including food in the pantries, and medical supplies from the bathroom cupboard. Technically by word of current law this is theft, and there is sure to be some that will scold you for even a thought of such an act. When SHTF law needs to give way to survival, because your life is more important than an imaginary set of rules. Now this doesn't mean it's acceptable to take what you want when you want. Be mindful of others in your shoes, as the things your taking may not be abandoned to begin with. Great caution should be taken to ensure the location you want to scavenge isn't occupied by a fellow survivor. Being armed is also a wise idea. It may sound extremist, or worst-case-scenario, but you may have to defend yourself against others with a like mindset.

Looting
Looting doesn't apply to a survival situation. Looting often happens after natural disasters, by people looking to gain from others suffering. Those that flock straight to best buy after a disaster hits are certainly not looking to survive. It's a sad thought that some would rather seek personal gain than assist those in need.

I hope this article helped encourage you to think of the choices that are going to need to be made when SHTF. Im not a sociology expert, but believe I have a good grasp of human nature and trends. How would you handle scavenging? Is it ethical if its technically stealing? Comment and discuss below!


----------



## tac803 (Nov 21, 2010)

Post shtf, I don't care what you call it...if somebody tries to "scavenge" any of my supplies, it's not going to be pretty.


----------



## chris88idaho (Apr 30, 2012)

First of all better stock up now. 

I see scavenging as securing unsecured items necessary for survival. Looting is the taking of items for both survival and personal gain from someone who has possession of said items, by force. 

Scavenging will only be view acceptable after a pretty major collapse and well after the dust settles. Looting will most likely be a definition of an armed third party authorized to put a bullet in you. 

I strongly suggest you prepare well in advance and become as self reliant as possible. Taking things that do not belong to you is a great way to die.


----------



## BillS (May 30, 2011)

I think I understand where you're coming from. You're not going to try to take things from people but to take advantage of things that are left behind.

An abandoned home isn't going to have food in it but it might have other things that might be useful. I understand the idea of looking in abandoned homes for things that you need. That's not an excuse to loot but to get things that you need for your own survival. After the collapse we're going to be on the lookout for abandoned homes that are very close to us. If there is one we'll use it to store our garbage so it isn't outside our house and so we don't have to take it far. 

It would also be very useful if there's a house close by where we could dump our sewage in their basement. Preferably a house with all its windows and doors intact so it keeps the smell inside. Yes, it sounds like a rotten thing to do to your neighbor's house but at some point the house will be obviously abandoned and anything that enhances my survival is worth considering. Doing that would be much safer than hauling buckets of sewage half a mile away where they might end up in ground water.


----------



## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

BillS said:


> After the collapse we're going to be on the lookout for abandoned homes that are very close to us. If there is one we'll use it to store our garbage so it isn't outside our house and so we don't have to take it far.
> 
> It would also be very useful if there's a house close by where we could dump our sewage in their basement. Preferably a house with all its windows and doors intact so it keeps the smell inside.


You start dumpin trash an sewage inta a house an yer gonna have a rodent an pest problem like ya can't beleive! Remember, rodents generally carry a great number a diseases.

Dump sewage inta a basement an leave it untreated an yer also gonna create that same problem an many more. As it starts ta breakdown yer likely ta make a methane bomb, one spark an yall be wearin yer poo.

The smell ain't gonna stay inside even if all the winders be there. It's gonna seep out, then somebody smart gonna realize people still be around an look fer the source a that smell.

Healt concerns alone would say ta treat yer wastes properly. Ain't gonna be many doctors round ta cure the problems caused by poor sanitation. Best be findin ways ta deal with trash an waste properly. Be that bury it, compost it or what have ya. Hidin it ain't the answer.

Ain't got no use fer looters. Lootin ta me is stealin tv's er such nonsense what isn't need ta maintain life.

Scavengin from abandoned property an takin life sustainin goods is more acceptable. Use a resource while it still be useable. I wouldn't take anythin from somebody else tryin ta surive.


----------



## PrepperCentral (May 25, 2012)

The problem lies in what happen if you encounter the owner of the property, but that's a different subject. Homes will have countless supplies that can be put to good use. Miles of electrical wiring are littered within the walls. That alone can be worth destroying your neighbors home, plus its fun to do a little demolition now and again. Later today I may write up something on a often overlooked item in your home you never thought to use as survival equipment, but that's a secret for now.

Its air conditioning ducts  secrets are lame.


----------



## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

My definitions - Looting is taking from people and a marvelous way to get shot. Scavenging is finding items or property that has been abandoned and nobody claims ownership of. Scavening is a great opportunity and keep in mind after SHTF a good place to ckeck is storage lockers. I've bought abandoned lockers at auction and its amazing what you can find. Although be wary of owners keeping an eye out for looters. Definition #1 definitely applies here.


----------



## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Hi there.I'm a scavenger.[see the title?]want to compare notes?


----------



## IlliniWarrior (Nov 30, 2010)

*Not Sewage Storage*



BillS said:


> I think I understand where you're coming from. You're not going to try to take things from people but to take advantage of things that are left behind.
> 
> An abandoned home isn't going to have food in it but it might have other things that might be useful. I understand the idea of looking in abandoned homes for things that you need. That's not an excuse to loot but to get things that you need for your own survival. After the collapse we're going to be on the lookout for abandoned homes that are very close to us. If there is one we'll use it to store our garbage so it isn't outside our house and so we don't have to take it far.
> 
> It would also be very useful if there's a house close by where we could dump our sewage in their basement. Preferably a house with all its windows and doors intact so it keeps the smell inside. Yes, it sounds like a rotten thing to do to your neighbor's house but at some point the house will be obviously abandoned and anything that enhances my survival is worth considering. Doing that would be much safer than hauling buckets of sewage half a mile away where they might end up in ground water.


Don't think dumping sewage into anything like a basement would be advisable ..... major health hazard that would cause major damage to the home and near to impossible to clean up post-SHTF .....

Don't see why pit toilets or construction site jonnies wouldn't be available or possible ....

but the various gooberment agencies do recommend corpse storage in an abandoned home when burial would not be possible, such as winter conditions in the north ..... some even go as far as using a home/structure for mass crematorium torching ....


----------



## PrepperCentral (May 25, 2012)

I try to talk ethics, and my thread degrades into poop storage advice. Im doing it wrong.


----------



## chris88idaho (Apr 30, 2012)

It's ok pepper central, all the best topics get hijacked and go off topic. Usually goes to guns or compareing something to Nazies. 

At least poop is semi relevant topic!


----------



## mdprepper (Jan 22, 2010)

PrepperCentral said:


> I try to talk ethics, and my thread degrades into poop storage advice. Im doing it wrong.


:lolsmash: Don't feel bad, I started one on bartering bullets and we ended up discussing menstrual products  :lolsmash: It is just the nature of the beast (so to speak).

Back on topic: I believe someone already nailed it perfectly.



OldCootHillbilly said:


> Ain't got no use fer looters. Lootin ta me is stealin tv's er such nonsense what isn't need ta maintain life.
> 
> Scavengin from abandoned property an takin life sustainin goods is more acceptable. Use a resource while it still be useable. I wouldn't take anythin from somebody else tryin ta surive.


----------



## Ezmerelda (Oct 17, 2010)

As always, Old Coot said it best. Welcome to Prepared Society, PrepperCentral...you'll get used to the winding roads we call forums. Usually, they wander off topic because someone (like Old Coot) has already said it best.


----------



## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

Coots nailed it... At least in theory. In practice, I dunno. I mean, if it comes down to that last piece of meat, are you really gonna just let me have it and starve to death, or will u try and kill me for it? I know what we'd all, or most of us anyway, would like to think we'd do, but until youve been there done that, it's just speculation.

As far as looting goes, that ones easy, it's never right. 

Scavenging requires a bit of a moral compass, take what you need and can use, but don't victimize others to get it.

But at a certain point, depending on how bad things are, what ethical lines will you actualy cross to avoid watching your child starve to death? 

There are three types of people, wolves, sheep, and sheepdogs. As a sheepdog, I'd like to believe I would never take an innocent life...


----------



## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

"The problem lies in what happen if you encounter the owner of the property, but that's a different subject."

No, that IS the subject! My guess would be that most people, at least those here, have no difficulty distinguishing between looting and scavenging. 

Mojo hit it right. Scavenging is what occurs once some property or an item is abandoned after the owner gives up all claim to it. The owner can do that voluntarily by walking away a leaving property for whoever else wants it, or the owner can sell his claim to someone who whats the item or property. If I go to a junk yard "scavenging" for parts, I am only scavenging once I pay the owner of the property. To not pay would be looting.

Katrina was mostly looting. No owner that I ever saw hung out a sign that read, "Here, take anything you want." Entering private property and taking something without either paying the owner or there being substantial evidence that the property has been abandoned is looting, aka, theft.

The only connection to ethics is simply that ethical people do not loot!


----------



## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

Jezcruzen said:


> "The problem lies in what happen if you encounter the owner of the property, but that's a different subject."
> 
> No, that IS the subject! My guess would be that most people, at least those here, have no difficulty distinguishing between looting and scavenging.
> 
> ...


Right.... But, suppose you didn't have a years supply of food and means for cleaning water, ect. And were caught up in a Katrina like event... Are you going to let your daughter starve, or do you take a risk and loot the grocery store?

There was a time when I didnt prep. I'm glad nothing happened then.


----------



## BillS (May 30, 2011)

Yes, there will be problems with dumping sewage in the basement of an abandoned house and dumping garbage there. But what's the better idea? You can't dump either one close to your house. Anyplace you put your garbage will create a rodent problem. I could dump sewage in a stream a few hundred yards from my house. That solves my problem but what about the people who want to use the stream for drinking water? Any place you dump garbage and sewage will alert others to your presence. They might watch your dumping spot 24/7 until they catch you going there.


----------



## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

FatTire said:


> Right.... But, suppose you didn't have a years supply of food and means for cleaning water, ect. And were caught up in a Katrina like event... Are you going to let your daughter starve, or do you take a risk and loot the grocery store?
> 
> There was a time when I didnt prep. I'm glad nothing happened then.


First, starvation takes a while. Second, I don't have a daughter. If I did, I would hustle on over to the FEMA shelter with all those others who are now helpless because they were not responsible enough to prepare even a little bit. I wouldn't be over with Travon and Shemika lifting tvs and cases of beer.

There are more acceptable, (and less dangerous) ways to get a meal. Do it honestly and work for it!


----------



## dirtgrrl (Jun 5, 2011)

BillS said:


> Yes, there will be problems with dumping sewage in the basement of an abandoned house and dumping garbage there. But what's the better idea? You can't dump either one close to your house. Anyplace you put your garbage will create a rodent problem. I could dump sewage in a stream a few hundred yards from my house. That solves my problem but what about the people who want to use the stream for drinking water? Any place you dump garbage and sewage will alert others to your presence. They might watch your dumping spot 24/7 until they catch you going there.


I'm gonna jump in here and say that part of your planning should include ways to minimize your trash so that you don't have to give yourself away disposing of it. Most stuff that we throw away today has another use, or multiple uses, if you are creative. My "trash" is gonna be minimal, including sewage.

Also that if anyone dumps ANYTHING upstream of me there will be **** to pay. I have a dear friend living in the "wilds" of NorCal who has had a new "grower" move in upstream of her. She is very concerned as transient growers have a reputation for careless use of pesticides and herbicides. (The resident growers are more community minded.) Deliberate pollution of an only water supply would be grounds to take someone out. It's always been that way in the west. "Whiskey's for drinking; water's for fighting over."

And oh yeah, the topic! What some call scavenging, I prefer to call gleaning. I'm a high-class prepper!


----------



## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

PrepperCentral said:


> I try to talk ethics, and my thread degrades into poop storage advice. Im doing it wrong.


Nah, you did it right. it's like this everywhere.
I posted a how to on scavenging in here somewhere.
two versions.


----------



## DKRinAK (Nov 21, 2011)

PrepperCentral said:


> I try to talk ethics, and my thread degrades into poop storage advice. Im doing it wrong.


I agree - you are doing it wrong.

Taking that which isn't yours is stealing. Period. Pretty simple, no fancy talk of 'ethics'.

Well, you say (in a situational ethics sort of way) - the owner is dead - fell over after a heart attack, helped to bury him/her. OK to scavenge (steal) now?

Nope. There are heirs and perhaps others, folks the dead person owed, who likely have an honest claim to the property.

Last and not least, stealing will get you shot/clubbed/done in. IOW, stealing - or whatever name you wish to call it is counter-survival. Far better to be in a position to get by without skulking about like a rat trying to take what is not yours.

I have to question your use of the word ethics and stealing in the same paragraph. If it's not yours, it's not yours. Want to scavenge, hit the dump - you _know_ that is abandoned property. Otherwise, it's just an excuse to steal what isn't yours. Harsh, yes?

About now, you're likely asking "Who is this ass?" 
I have property in another State, and have a constant problem with folks stealing from the 'abandoned' property. I have posted it, asked the local cops to swing by and so on. For the moment I have all but given up, seems the ethics-challenged are winning for now. That may color my views - just a bit.

So - is it 'ethical' to take something that is not yours - no matter the situation? IMO, it is not.
As far as the old saw - if your child is starving, try working - you know, making a deal to trade your labor for someone's goods.

Once you get past the "It's OK to steal", what falls next?
Kill someone because they look at you funny? Someone's old lady looking pretty sweet? The old man getting to be a pain?
****

Ethics, also known as moral philosophy, is a branch of philosophy that involves systematizing, defending, and recommending concepts of right and wrong behavior

Major areas of study in ethics may be divided into 3 operational areas --

Meta-ethics, or the theoretical meaning and reference of moral propositions and how their truth values (if any) may be determined.

Normative ethics, about the practical means of determining a moral course of action;

Applied ethics, how moral outcomes can be achieved in specific situations - which, I believe is the bit under discussion here. For 'right and wrong' a good standard is always the starting point.
And therein lies the problem - what do you use as the "Standard".


----------



## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

BillS said:


> Yes, there will be problems with dumping sewage in the basement of an abandoned house and dumping garbage there. But what's the better idea? You can't dump either one close to your house. Anyplace you put your garbage will create a rodent problem. I could dump sewage in a stream a few hundred yards from my house. That solves my problem but what about the people who want to use the stream for drinking water? Any place you dump garbage and sewage will alert others to your presence. They might watch your dumping spot 24/7 until they catch you going there.


Most correct sir.I think I might have a solution I read in here somewhere:

Mix your waste with concrete and sawdust and when it cures,roll it over a bank. or line a flower bed or whatever you'd do with flat, round chunks of quickcrete.


----------



## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

Magus said:


> Most correct sir.I think I might have a solution I read in here somewhere:
> 
> Mix your waste with concrete and sawdust and when it cures,roll it over a bank. or line a flower bed or whatever you'd do with flat, round chunks of quickcrete.


*I don't see what the OP is complaining about, it's perfectly natural to go from doing what ya gotta to survive to rolling yer turds in concrete....

:lolsmash::lolsmash::lolsmash::lolsmash:

AND..have you seen the price of Tomatoes !!!??? *


----------



## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

*OK...now I'm serious ! really...We all talk about surviving TEOTWAWKI... and the OP's post was a good one...the answers tho leave a lot to be considered ...

It's the end of the world for millions...you and yours made it with preparing , luck, and maybe the grace of whichever god you pray to...

Now your out of your hidie hole.. the sky's are empty of jets, not a sound but the birds singing...

There is no reason to stay where your at because you used all your supplies..so you all load up packs on your bikes and start pushing..

After a few days and not many miles you come up on a farm house..the doors open , no sign of anybody, the door has been open a long time since the room is full of blown in trash..

The place ain't been looted but there are signs of people in a hurry just grabbing and running..

There is a pantry with jars of food ...your hungry, your kids are hungry..and you tell your kids, sorry kids, we have to starve because even tho the world ended 2 months ago and nobody is here and haven't been here in months and all this food will freeze and then rot , we are gonna leave it because it's not ours.........

If you are gonna tell me this is your plan, your personal attitude then your kids deserve a better dad...

None of us are talking about living in another state and having people screw with our property in a different state...today... that's wrong in so many ways...but if the balloon goes up and time has past and most of the population has died off...and you walk away from food your kids need to live then I have to ask why did you bother to keep them alive...

We all have good hopes and dreams and don't plan to be bad people...but reality will bite you in the ass when it comes.. and for me... NO..taking that food is not the same as saying OH look!! that guy has a garden, I'll shoot him and we can take his food...

I will not fly a false flag of honor...If you have it and I need it , I'll trade/ barter for it, I'll work for it, but if your not interested in parting with it then end of story I'll go on my way..... But if I find it abandoned and not a sign of anybody having been around for a long time, I will take it..

I have not prepped, planned, worked to survive TEOTWAWKI just to die because of misguided honor...

But this is JMHO...each will have to decide for themselves..

HAPPY "Salvaging" !!! *


----------



## Zanazaz (Feb 14, 2012)

Okay, here is my point of view on the subject of scavenging versus looting/stealing. I feel that if there is a major loss of life due to nuclear/bioweapons, or a pandemic, then scavenging ( at least to me )becomes perfectly acceptable.

What do a mean by major loss of life? I'm talking anywhere from a 70% or higher loss of the Earth's population. This would cause a major societal collapse, and if things aren't scavenged then they will rot/degrade/etc. Chances are there are no heirs left if it's in someones house. Scavenging is ethical in this situation, especially if you are doing it to help others who can't scavenge for themselves.

If you still believe that scavenging is wrong in this situation, then :dunno:. If it becomes necessary due to any number of scenarios are you NOT going to scavenge? If it becomes a matter of life or death, then what do you do? Let yourself or others die because it's unethical to scavenge?

Hopefully, we will never face this scenario. But if it does happen, and I need to scavenge then I will take only what's necessary. And then only from obviously abandoned locations. Hopefully, I won't have to to, but I'm not going to rule it out.


----------



## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

Jezcruzen said:


> First, starvation takes a while. Second, I don't have a daughter. If I did, I would hustle on over to the FEMA shelter with all those others who are now helpless because they were not responsible enough to prepare even a little bit. I wouldn't be over with Travon and Shemika lifting tvs and cases of beer.
> 
> There are more acceptable, (and less dangerous) ways to get a meal. Do it honestly and work for it!


I would never go to a FEMA shelter, certainly not with my kids. I'd find another way.

I think I've adequately demonstrated that im a worker (check my blister thread), so that would certainly be a first option had I no preps, as would hunting/foraging.

But I think if we are to be honest about the question, it's about what if you had no other options, if it came do to steal food or die, which would you do?

Obviously, avoiding this type of moral dilemma is at least in part why most of us prep.

Tough to say what you wouldn't do for that next breath until you've been there, is all I'm saying


----------



## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

HozayBuck said:


> *OK...now I'm serious ! really...We all talk about surviving TEOTWAWKI... and the OP's post was a good one...the answers tho leave a lot to be considered ...
> 
> It's the end of the world for millions...you and yours made it with preparing , luck, and maybe the grace of whichever god you pray to...
> 
> ...


 HB told it like it is, I teetotally agree because there it is plain and simple. In a TEOTWAWKI situation anything abandoned IMO is up for grabs and if you don't take advantage of the situation then again IMO you are a serious idiot.

It's 3 days post TSHTF and you are part of a three person team out on patrol around your BOL and you see a lone indvidual get attacked by some "gang bangers" and after taking out the BG's you find that the guy that just got ambushed didn't make it. So am I now supposed to tell my team members "we better not take his or the "gang bangers" weapons, ammo, food, or water because their *HEIRS* are entitled to it"? *Give me a freaking break!!!*
Like HB this is just MHO and not ment to offend anyone.


----------



## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

In a life and death situation, you should still have some things you would not do.

Rules to live by and with after it's over

1. Do not kill anyone who is not immediatly threatening you or a third party.

2. Do not steal anything that leaves someone else in a life threatening situation.

3. If the scavenged item is not nessicary to maintain your life, leave it alone.

4. Whenever possable pay for or trade for what you have to aquire to live.


----------



## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

If it's laying around, not locked up and no owner in sight[Might holler, might not.]and it'll help me get by,I'm taking it!


----------



## bahramthered (Mar 10, 2012)

BillM said:


> In a life and death situation, you should still have some things you would not do.
> 
> Rules to live by and with after it's over
> 
> ...


Great basic principals but life is sure to offer real hard choices.

Imagine your in a Sh!T situation. You've found an abandoned house. Loads of guns, canned goods, and a well. Secure location. Seems abandoned so you move in thinking the owners where caught away or are dead.

You plant a garden (which is just seedlings), use up your food, and fortify the place. One day 3 cars pull up loaded with people who've come here since it was there BoL. They've come a long way and are out of gas and food. They out number you and are heavily armed and pissed that you took their base.

What do you do?


----------



## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

I went back and read the OP again. There is no mention of TEOTWAWKI. Mad Max, the end of civilization, EMP, pandemic, or dogs and cats living together.

He speaks about a "Katrina like" situation. It is obviously not a nationwide disaster since he mentions people leaving the area affected to safer areas.

A Katrina like disaster affects a region of a state, and/or contiguous regions of adjacent states, and very little else. 

As responses spin out of control, it might pay to go back and read the original post once again. Just saying.


----------



## boomer (Jul 13, 2011)

Being rural, I simply do not relate. 

BOL sounds a lot like a farm/homestead. And if the garden is in and up then the so called owners are seasonally late. They would owe for the labour, and food production from the garden would likely be greater than that consumed in order to put the garden in. This is particularly true if the so called squatters have rounded up some chickens, rabbits, goats, sheep, cattle, horses etcetera. and also planted some field crops for animal feed, maintained/started fencing. 

Food production takes an on site, ongoing effort.

And, incidentally, for decades the rule of thumb in rural N. America was that if stranded anyone could enter for the purpose of emergency shelter and food. Northern cabins often had money on the table and a few items missing in the spring, and sometimes even repairs done and supplies left that had not been there in the fall.

So, ethical - I do not have to own the place to operate and care for it. If no one shows to continue then it will eventually be mine, if someone shows then maybe there is need for all of us and maybe I take my share of the excess I have produced and move on. I see little to no reason for hostility unless one or the other party is spoiling for a fight.


----------



## Zanazaz (Feb 14, 2012)

Jezcruzen said:


> I went back and read the OP again. There is no mention of TEOTWAWKI. Mad Max, the end of civilization, EMP, pandemic, or dogs and cats living together.
> 
> He speaks about a "Katrina like" situation. It is obviously not a nationwide disaster since he mentions people leaving the area affected to safer areas.
> 
> ...


I've read nothing in this thread that seemed out of control. Here is the first paragraph:



> Ethics of Scavenging/Looting when SHTF
> No one likes to think about difficult situations. It is perfectly natural for humans to want to avoid conflict and, for the most part, do the right thing. Even in times of great need it can be hard for one to stray from their moral path. In a survival situation your moral boundaries are sure to be pushed.


So I think just about every post is on TOPIC.


----------



## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

I totally agree boomer. Where I hike in the rockies there are lots of abandoned cabins. Probly built by settlers or miners and some on private property. But there are no locks on the doors because nobody is around and if you lock it up people will just break in anyway. So if you stay the night the general rule is to leave some chopped firewood behind and try to fix any small repairs that are needed.


----------



## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*I would*



bahramthered said:


> Great basic principals but life is sure to offer real hard choices.
> 
> Imagine your in a Sh!T situation. You've found an abandoned house. Loads of guns, canned goods, and a well. Secure location. Seems abandoned so you move in thinking the owners where caught away or are dead.
> 
> ...


I would surrender it to them with out a fight and explain that I had protected it from potential intruders that likely would not surrender it to the rightful owners. I would offer compensation if possable and ask them if I could stay or at least leave with enough to get me by for a few days.


----------



## PrepperCentral (May 25, 2012)

Jezcruzen said:


> I went back and read the OP again. There is no mention of TEOTWAWKI. Mad Max, the end of civilization, EMP, pandemic, or dogs and cats living together.
> 
> He speaks about a "Katrina like" situation. It is obviously not a nationwide disaster since he mentions people leaving the area affected to safer areas.
> 
> ...


I speak of no specific situation in my post. I used the katrina example to catch readers attention so they would tolerate the massive wall of text. Seriously who wants to read a post on ethics when they can learn how to tie knots and skin rabbits?

The whole point of this post is to get people thinking, as I can see it has done just that. For those that say scavenging for survival is wrong and wouldn't do it, would you also give your belongings to a stranger that asked post SHTF? Before you answer think about the possibilities. You cant give your stuff away to everyone and may have to say no, but how can you know you wont be harmed by a hungry soul just trying to survive? There are certainly lines to be drawn, but when your life is on the line ultimately I think that line gets considerably wider.


----------



## goshengirl (Dec 18, 2010)

PrepperCentral said:


> The whole point of this post is to get people thinking, as I can see it has done just that.


Yep, it got me to thinking. My initial reaction was 'I'll never loot (take something I want), but I might scavenge (take something I need that has been abandoned). Because if it comes down to it, that's what I would want to happen to our place - I don't want people to just take stuff, but if there's something here that one of our neighbors needs, yeah, I want them to make use of it in our absence.

But this thread got me thinking. It's easy to say that my ethics would guide my decisions in a crisis. But the fact is, until I'm in that crisis, I really don't know.


----------



## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

Zanazaz said:


> I've read nothing in this thread that seemed out of control. Here is the first paragraph:
> 
> So I think just about every post is on TOPIC.


Yeah, you're probably right. I read "Katrina" and my mind goes down that road.


----------

