# Water Storage tank?



## sgtusmc98 (Sep 8, 2013)

I have been wanting to collect water from the gutters for a while, most of the storage techniques I have seen involve exposed pipe that would freeze and break, to the credit of some collection system authors they say they drain them in the winter. For my plan much of the collection would occur in the winter. I am in Tennessee so it's not exceptionally cold, I would like to plan on a month of continuous below freezing since it has happened, we have had consecutive weeks of 10 degrees and below in the past few years.

My question is if any of you have good systems to handle freezing or any failures that should be noted.







This is a 550 gallon tank from Tractor Supply I was considering.

I was thinking that if it was on an elevated platform of dirt a pipe could come out of the middle of the bottom in the dirt to a frost free spicket for water access in winter or summer.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

I had one about three times that size freeze solid in -40* and I still use it. It is amazing how resilient these are.

I'd suggest going in from the top and placing a heat taped pipe down the middle of the tank to a few inches from the bottom. Heat tape and insulation keep pipes flowing above ground.

If you burry the tank so that the bottom is below the frost line the tank will never freeze solid. My guess is that isn't but a foot or two in your area.

My tank, and many others in a -40* environment, are set above ground on a 4" foam platform and then sprayed with 4" of foam. Weekly water deliveries keep everything thawed. Some supplement with electric heaters when things are really bad.


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## forluvofsmoke (Jan 27, 2012)

I was born, raised, and have worked all my life in areas of sub-zero winter temps. If you don't want your water to freeze, you either bury it with at least 4 feet of earth, or you keep it in a basement where it won't get below freezing temps. Freeze-protection methods include heat-tape/insulation for piping.

If your prospects for storage temps include 10*F for a month before rising above 32*F again then you will find your 550 gallon tank become a solid block of ice unless you protect it.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

If you can't bury it, you can build a small earth dam around it for a minor amount of protection. 

Spray foam is great, but around here ants and rodents tunnel through it.

Building a small shed around it - even uninsulated - not only keeps it out of the sun but protects it some from temps. That what I did. A torn down mobile home supplied the materials, including some insulation that was reused.

Heat doesn't have to be electric - - build a small "Rocket Mass Heater" into the ground/base underneath it, and a few handfuls of sticks every couple days will provide enough heat to keep it from freezing EVER!! 
Not sure how you'd incorporate a "heat drum", though..... maybe place an old gas water heater over that chamber and use it to heat the water directly with circulation pipes. At any rate, figuring out a way to heat some water (or the ground underneath) can be accomplished in any number of ways, and not a lot of wood is needed to prevent a solid freeze up.


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## sgtusmc98 (Sep 8, 2013)

Thank you all for your comments, makes me feel better about the project. As far as freezing it's more of a concern that the tank or access pipe would break than not being able to access it. We normally get a lot of precipitation in the winter and not as much in the summer. Right now we are in the worst recorded drought recorded. I know other places are bad too but it does shake up the security I had in water here. It's been 3-4 months with out more than a few sprinkles. I wanted a better storage system before but this increases the desire that's for sure!


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

The access pipe would be the weak link.


> I was thinking that if it was on an elevated platform of dirt a pipe could come out of the middle of the bottom in the dirt to a frost free spicket for water access in winter or summer.


This might work in your conditions. Especially if you mounded dirt around the tank also (the higher the better).


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

Back when I was young I lived in a small town. Part of the Town's public water supply was a small elevated water tower. Access pipe would freeze in the winter so the solution was to stack bales of straw around the access pipe to keep it from freezing. Solved that problem.

Younger generation Water Superintendent was hired. He was told to make sure he stack straw around the access pipe. The kid didn't listen. Instead he throttled the water wells back so they ran more. Constant movement of water in and out of he elevated water tower kept the access pipe from freezing.

So for your solution you could stack straw bales around and on top of your storage tank for cold weather protection. 

Or pipe a loop into a heated area of your house with a circulating pump. Circulate from the bottom of your tank (access pipe) and refill from the top. Constant flow of water should prevent the water freezing in your mild winters.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

I had a 500 gallon tank that the city filled once a week. If they missed me I could make it two weeks even over Thanksgiving with a larger than normal water usage. That was with just the two of us. They make those tanks in a 5000 gallon model. I have lived well with a 5000 gallon cistern and a rain catchment system.

A water shed was suggested. This would not only protect the cistern from the cold but from the wind and sun. It would also provide extra rain catchment. As far as heat goes you just need to keep the shed above freezing.

Your tank will freeze from the sides in and from the top down. The city filled a 1500 gallon spare plastic water tank of mine without my knowledge. By the time I figured it out the tank was frozen solid. The next spring I just pumped the tank dry so I could move it. There was no noticeable damage.

A plastic tank is flexible. With the 550 gallons you are talking about water that weighs in at well over two tons, getting full, getting empty, getting full, getting empty. Between the changes of weight and temperature if you go through the bottom of a plastic tank you had best have an excellent connection. 

Your water pickup needs to be three to six inches from the bottom to allow for dirt and leaves to settle out and not be sucked up.


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## terri9630 (Jun 2, 2016)

Caribou said:


> I had one about three times that size freeze solid in -40* and I still use it. It is amazing how resilient these are.
> 
> I'd suggest going in from the top and placing a heat taped pipe down the middle of the tank to a few inches from the bottom. Heat tape and insulation keep pipes flowing above ground.
> 
> ...


Heat tape inside the water tank? Or is the heat tape inside a piece of pipe? For some reason I just can't picture it.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

Shucks. Throw a livestock tank heater in there. Simple.

https://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=i:aps,k:Livestock Water Tank Heaters


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## terri9630 (Jun 2, 2016)

Would a stock tank heater work? I was thinking of getting one for our big tank after we move up the mountain.


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## terri9630 (Jun 2, 2016)

TheLazyL said:


> Shucks. Throw a livestock tank heater in there. Simple.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=i:aps,k:Livestock Water Tank Heaters


You beat me to it. That's what I was looking at when you posted.


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## readytogo (Apr 6, 2013)

I know that I`m out of my league here but back in my Army days we kept our water warm with this immersion heaters .
Military Surplus M67 Heater, Immersion Liquid Fuel Fired 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Militar...202805?hash=item282472eab5:g:rIwAAOSwA3dYK5Kw


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

Most people wrap a heat tape in a spiral around the outside of a water line. Some just run the heat tape along one side but this can allow the heat tape to fall away from the pipe and that section can freeze. Insulation is then placed around the pipe and heat tape. Foam insulation is required for any sections that may get wet. 

Another trick is to hang a heat tape down the middle of the tank. As the tank freezes the pressure forces the water up through the hole left by the heat tape and relieves much of the pressure.

We had some luck floating a lightbulb in the cistern. Care must be taken that the socket does not get wet and the lightbulb must be in the water before you turn it on or it will break. When the light burns out or the power goes off this system quits working. A failing with all systems that use electricity. This was our first system and while we use it for a few years we found others that worked better. 

Your heat taped pipe running in from the top of the tank will protect the tank from rupture and is my favorite though as the tank freezes the available volume diminishes. A stock tank heater is a viable answer.

Another answer is to bury the tank completely or partially. I would not expect a plastic tank to suffer being buried completely though you may get by with a foot or two. The ground is an excellent heat sink and should provide excellent protection if you can get below the frost line.

I have lived with, worked on, and built cisterns for over fifty years. I have dealt with wood, concrete, plastic, steel, and aluminum. Don't use aluminum.


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## sgtusmc98 (Sep 8, 2013)

Thank you for all the replies, I would like to do without electricity if possible but that doesn't mean it couldn't also be used. If I buried it I would have to pump it out which I didn't consider having a hand pump for, but also having electric could be nice, the hand pump would be for real emergencies. I think burying and a hand pump would alleviate my biggest concerns.


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## sgtusmc98 (Sep 8, 2013)

If what the fire inspector told me today comes true, no real rain till February, I may have to get a tank to trailer in water.


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## forluvofsmoke (Jan 27, 2012)

sgtusmc98, it may not have been part of your plan, but considering your current situation and the possibility of it worsening and/or recurring in the future, putting forth a bit more materials and time for a water cistern instead of just a storage tank may be your best option. It really is just a few steps farther into the project, but is added insurance for availability of water.

In case you're in need of more references:

Water Cistern Facts, by Rex X. - SurvivalBlog.com

Rainwater Harvesting pdf


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

That link did not work for me try this one.

https://survivalblog.com/water_cistern_facts_by_rex_x/


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

readytogo said:


> I know that I`m out of my league here but back in my Army days we kept our water warm with this immersion heaters .
> Military Surplus M67 Heater, Immersion Liquid Fuel Fired


Or, the "wood fired version".

Ref "cowboy hot tub"


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

A "thermo-siphon" (Dutch hot tub?) would be the easiest to set up, but would also require you to:

1) Drill two holes, one low and one high, for the hot water loop.
NOTE: the water level must remain high enough to keep the upper opening covered, or the hot water won't circulate.

2) You need 3 valves, so you can "isolate" the heat loop & drain it so it doesn't freeze with water inside the tubing


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## sgtusmc98 (Sep 8, 2013)

Thanks for all the replies I'll have to look into the cistern more. The heated water idea is really cool, I saw a video on making a water heater run on wood (outside). I don't think I would have to go that far on this project but it most definitely brings up ideas for other projects!


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## sgtusmc98 (Sep 8, 2013)

Well for now the rain has set in, we need it that's for sure. At this point I'm glad my well made it but still need to set up alternatives. Sometimes it's good to be tested, I always worried about my well and even though we are getting rain it could dry up tomorrow, it's never been pushed this far before.


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