# Bolt gun vs semi-auto



## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

I read some statistics a while ago that stated how many tens of thousands of rounds on average were fired for each "kill" in the decade-long war in Afghanistan. It was staggering. I suspect it was a similar ratio in 'Nam as the "go switch" was thrown to full-auto and the trooper went into "spray & pray" mode.

America was once called a country of riflemen. Certainly that no longer holds true since our PC culture now frowns on guns and most of our youngsters are never taught how to properly shoot.

It got me to thinking, for almost any scenario we here might have to contend with in the future, might an accurate bolt (or lever) gun you are good with be better (one shot, one kill) than a semi-auto that would seduce you into expending four, five, or more rounds for the same result? Think about it... that old codger with his 30-30 making a kill every time he pulls the trigger or that youngster with the semi-auto that has put a lot of lead down range but has yet to hit his target.

I know many of you are good with your semi-autos. I like to think I am as well. Still, I can make hits with my trusty deer rifle through a thicket or across a field that I question making with my semi-autos. Just think about it. 

Open for discussion.


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

don't forget the _*original*_ one shot one kill weapons... bows & crossbows!


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

I would prefer to have the best of both worlds. An accurate, well practiced, semi-auto. Accuracy is king but having speed on your side can be a blessing as well! 

I also believe we in the US still have some awesome marksmen. Look up some stories from snipers in our military! Awesome! It is sad though that so many are taught to fear guns instead of respect them.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

TheAnt said:


> I would prefer to have the best of both worlds. An accurate, well practiced, semi-auto. Accuracy is king but having speed on your side can be a blessing as well!
> 
> I also believe we in the US still have some awesome marksmen. Look up some stories from snipers in our military! Awesome! It is sad though that so many are taught to fear guns instead of respect them.


Very well said!

Several advantages to an auto-loader: First, there's no "secondary" sound of racking the bolt to chamber a cartridge. It can be difficult to pinpoint the origination of a single shot but make two shots or chamber a round and your location is known exactly. Second, multiple opponents. A quick second, third, etc. shot might keep you alive. Third, if you need cover to move or someone else needs you to cover their movements, rapid, close firing from a semi-auto might make the difference. Third, ask any WW2 Japanese survivors what they thought when going up against the M-1 Garand with their bolt action rifles. The people who do this for a "living" all use automatic rifles. Every army in the world has gone to the semi-auto. The automatic rifle made one soldier able to stand off multiple opponents. Fourth, learn some fire control. Then you have the best of both worlds ... rapid fire when needed and one-shot accuracy when appropriate. Don't ever disregard accuracy of any semi-auto. My MAK-90 with a good scope and mount and careful aim is almost as accurate as my friend's AR's. I can think of more reasons but I'm short on time here. If there was any advantage to a bolt action on the battle field every army in the world would have bolt actions.

A bolt action is better than nothing but to think one rifle is best for everything is like thinking one knife is adequate for every chore.


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

*Wonderful! I love these kinds of threads!!!*

*For years I've been asked what I thought the best survival rifle was and I've always said the 22 rifle , and the questioners always say well what if you need more power, I answered "Shotgun".. and all ..yep "ALL" of them said well what if they are too far away??

My answer...IF you are moving properly and using all the concealment and camo that you can, you should see them long before they see you.... but they still ask, what if you see them but they are too far away?..my answer is always the same... drop down and crawl away!!! but then I have to explain "WHY" start a gun fight?... slip away... avoid them... if they are scouts then they have nothing to report.... Maybe they are innocents... if you aren't close enough to know for sure then your not in immediate danger...

My whole point is that if you can, avoid contact... it's called "Survival" for a reason... having a full auto gives a lot of people a big false sense of " I'm the bull of the woods... " unless you have a big supply unit backing you up then an ammo burning fore fight ain't in your favor... I know what I can carry and if I got trigger happy and went crazy I'd be out of ammo real fast..

I have several AR's and AK's... I prefer the AK.. I also have 3 Heavy BBL bolt guns and love em all.. the 308 has a 20 inch bbl and takes my can.. I'd take it if it was take one leave the rest... I figure if need be I can get what I need from the people who are hunting me.. quietly..

I'd rather have a savvy old woodsman with his 30-30 backing me then 5 green kids with autos...

I've owned 8 full auto rifles..( well 2 were 9mm sub guns) and sold them all, to much attention, burns too much ammo, and I've used enough to know that unless your being overrun , FA is not your friend... Now I'll admit I'd not turn down a nice AR with a 3 shot burst !.. that's pretty sweet...

I guess to me it don't really matter..I was a hunter before I joined the Marines , I became a Rifleman in the Corps, I'm still one... aimed fire will win the day unless your caught in an ambush..then fire power and attacking is the rule ..

Snipers depend on stealth and concealment not fire power... one shot ,one kill, GTFOD!!

If you can hit a man size target in the center mass at 300 yards with your auto loader then your doing great and you should have one... if not maybe a bolt gun is your best bet...

Buy the best you can afford , shoot it a lot.. then shoot it some more.. having a gold plated whatever may be cool on the range but out in Indian Country, you best be able to shoot...

One last thing...IF you have kids and didn't start them shooting by age 6 then your missing out on a lot of fun! and your not doing your job as a dad and a prepper.. It's up to us to bring on the next generation of shooters.. hell if you know a kid who don't have a dad offer to teach him..or her.. *


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

HozayBuck said:


> One last thing...IF you have kids and didn't start them shooting by age 6 then your missing out on a lot of fun! and your not doing your job as a dad and a prepper.. It's up to us to bring on the next generation of shooters.. hell if you know a kid who don't have a dad offer to teach him..or her.. [/B]


Right on!:2thumb:


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## 101airborne (Jan 29, 2010)

TheAnt said:


> I would prefer to have the best of both worlds. An accurate, well practiced, semi-auto. Accuracy is king but having speed on your side can be a blessing as well! .


Again I have to agree with ant here. ( Hey ant we gotta quit doing this people will talk LOL)

I as I've mentioned before own multiple firearms. They are all tools designed for a job. Use the right tool. Now as I've said I have a 30.06 bolt action that I can literally drive roofing nails with out to around 100-125 yards. "short" range it's great. however much further and it loses accuracy quickly. Okay I can step up I have a Barrett .416 in semi auto, With it I can extend my OSOK range to 750+ yards. If that doesn't work I can break out the "big guy" a Barrett .50 with a MARS scope then I can OSOK at 1+ mile away. Each one has it's use. However personally I've always been an (semi)Auto fan. But that's just me.


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

Jezcruzen said:


> I read some statistics a while ago that stated how many tens of thousands of rounds on average were fired for each "kill" in the decade-long war in Afghanistan. It was staggering. I suspect it was a similar ratio in 'Nam as the "go switch" was thrown to full-auto and the trooper went into "spray & pray" mode....


Consider this in AFG: An enemy that knows to use cover/concealment. Very challenging terrain for our troops on the move; thus an enemy that can choose the terrain to THEIR advantage. An enemy that usually ambushes; thus the origin of fire is a direction, not pinpoint.

Tactics have been developed in response to these engagements. "spray & pray" it IS NOT. There is a method to the perceived madness.

When is the last time you reviewed respective branch basic rifleman's courses? They have the benefit of generations of riflemanship. Many times the regular line units are NOT given enough ammo to maintain high live fire proficiency at all times. But they have the training.

The "bolt vs. semi-auto" argument is bogus. Both are accurate enough. *It's the indian, not the arrow.* And the semi- can leave a hand free for some very important tasks.

I suspect we'll see you in court soon, pleading insanity by reason of firearm seduction.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

Hitting the target is hitting the target regardless of where on earth you are - Afghanistan or Alabama. Hitting the target means you can move on to the next threat. Racking another round into the chamber can be carried out as you rotate or pivot to the next threat and does not have to be a separate step. How long does it take for a practiced rifleman to crank a fresh round - less than a second, probably.

I'm not discounting any advantages of either semi or select-fire in a close quarter contact situation. But neither should a bolt gun be discounted as too antiquated to get the job done, and that would be killing an enemy. 

I don't know how the Japs felt, but don't overlook the fact that the Brits and other Commonwealth troops fought throughout WWII and Korea with bolt guns. Germans, too.

Both semi and select-fire can be a force multiplier, especially in laying down suppressive fire. But thats keeping the enemy's heads done, not killing them necessarily. 

Look at my original post. I expressly said situations we are likely to encounter, not a frontal assault on a battlefield. Thats a BIG difference. I envision more of a "shoot & scoot" scenario or one where we avoid contact altogether, if possible. It is the indian and not the arrow. We spend too much time on the arrow.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

Jezcruzen said:


> It is the indian and not the arrow. We spend too much time on the arrow.


Yup! :2thumb:


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

Lee Harvey Oswald :nuts: used a mannlicher-carcano bolt action M91/38


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

Jezcruzen said:


> Both semi and select-fire can be a force multiplier, especially in laying down suppressive fire. But thats keeping the enemy's heads done, not killing them necessarily.


You seem to allow for the concept of suppressive fire but scratch your head about why round counts are so "high".

And another contradiction. A base of fire is still meant to kill, "suppressive" or otherwise.



Jezcruzen said:


> Look at my original post. I expressly said situations we are likely to encounter, not a frontal assault on a battlefield. Thats a BIG difference. I envision more of a "shoot & scoot" scenario or one where we avoid contact altogether, if possible. It is the indian and not the arrow. We spend too much time on the arrow.


The military IS looking for contact and IS looking to destroy. This doesn't jive with the mission or likely resources of your local Alabama Prepared Society.

It is an apples to oranges comparison. AFG ammo consumption does not support your argument.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

Fn/Form said:


> You seem to allow for the concept of suppressive fire but scratch your head about why round counts are so "high".
> 
> And another contradiction. A base of fire is still meant to kill, "suppressive" or otherwise.
> 
> ...


Not an argument. And, you are correct.. it is apples to oranges although you and I might be thinking differently.

Going back to my original post, bolt-guns should not be discounted as a means of self-defense/deterrent in what many of us foresee as the most likely unsettled environment we will experience should society devolve into regional unpleasantness. Knowing some of the hunters that I do, I would not like it being unprotected and on foot with any of them as my adversary. After all, our snipers have been cranking rounds since WW1, although a movement to semi-autos is underway now that semi-auto accuracy is approaching that of bolt-actions. Still, it is a technology that most of us cannot afford even if available to the civilian market.

I personally own ARs, AKs, and FALs. I like them a lot and wouldn't hesitate grabbing any of them for a defensive application. However, if I want a rifle in the truck, or one to sling over my shoulder as I do a recce around the place, I wouldn't feel slighted or under-armed taking a bolt-action. Whats not to like? Accurate, potent caliber, light weight, fast, and fed by a box magazine that can quickly be switched out with a fresh one! I wouldn't necessarily choose it to assault Tora Bora, but, OTOH, a potent .308 would be better than the 5.56, wouldn't you agree?


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## SnakeDoc (Nov 10, 2009)

The reality is that most of us from a standing, unsupported position would have a hard time shooting either rifle with the accuracy it is capable of. Bolt vs semi is another version of the 9mm vs .45 debate. The fact of the matter is there are so many other factors involved that the debate is pointless. 

Our task as prepper/survivalists is to be proficient with what weapons WE HAVE. I would assume in a a true melt down I will also be scrounging weapons and ammo. I have a wide variety of guns and ammo. They range for Mosin 91-30s that cost me 69 bucks to high end ARs. I also have a wide variety of hand guns, shotguns etc. I have calibers that I might just encounter ammo in. I also have linked with neighbors for mutual support. 

I have lately been working on a plan to secure my small rural town from outside threat should the ballon go up. All of these concerns are far more important to me than bolt vs auto.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

SnakeDoc said:


> The reality is that most of us from a standing, unsupported position would have a hard time shooting either rifle with the accuracy it is capable of. Bolt vs semi is another version of the 9mm vs .45 debate. The fact of the matter is there are so many other factors involved that the debate is pointless.
> 
> Our task as prepper/survivalists is to be proficient with what weapons WE HAVE. I would assume in a a true melt down I will also be scrounging weapons and ammo. I have a wide variety of guns and ammo. They range for Mosin 91-30s that cost me 69 bucks to high end ARs. I also have a wide variety of hand guns, shotguns etc. I have calibers that I might just encounter ammo in. I also have linked with neighbors for mutual support.
> 
> I have lately been working on a plan to secure my small rural town from outside threat should the ballon go up. All of these concerns are far more important to me than bolt vs auto.


It isn't a "concern" at all. Its just a subject thrown out there for discussion and no one should get their panties in a wad over it.

There are plenty of "preppers" out there, I'll wager, who don't have, and may never have, the money to put into an AR, FAL, certainly the overpriced M1A or even an AK. Many may live in a state or city where owning an "assault rifle" or even the magazines for one is illegal.

You're correct in saying that in a off-hand standing position we will never hit to the capability of the rifle. I will further add that under extreme stress you won't either regardless of the firing position.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

Jezcruzen said:


> There are plenty of "preppers" out there, I'll wager, who don't have, and may never have, the money to put into an AR, FAL, certainly the overpriced M1A or even an AK. Many may live in a state or city where owning an "assault rifle" or even the magazines for one is illegal.


My first suggestion to said "prepper" above would be to move to a free state. Since that may not be possible for everyone I would make my second recommendation to get a bolt/lever gun and practice as much as possible with it. I stand by my OP.


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## SnakeDoc (Nov 10, 2009)

I was suggesting that I'd much rather have a group of folks who can shoot than folks with cool toys. Everyone needs to prep within their budget. A spendy rifle with little ammo is a poor bargain. 

As far as living in the States that limit ones freedoms, I wouldn't and don't. My dad was a decorated WWII vet who couldn't buy a .22 pistol in New York. He want to target shoot with it. Soon we moved to a state that was more friendly on the issue. 

Why folks chose to have their liberties curtailed is curious to me.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

SnakeDoc said:


> I was suggesting that I'd much rather have a group of folks who can shoot than folks with cool toys. Everyone needs to prep within their budget. A spendy rifle with little ammo is a poor bargain.
> 
> As far as living in the States that limit ones freedoms, I wouldn't and don't. My dad was a decorated WWII vet who couldn't buy a .22 pistol in New York. He want to target shoot with it. Soon we moved to a state that was more friendly on the issue.
> 
> Why folks chose to have their liberties curtailed is curious to me.


Couldn't agree more.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Jezcruzen said:


> I read some statistics a while ago that stated how many tens of thousands of rounds on average were fired for each "kill" in the decade-long war in Afghanistan. It was staggering. I suspect it was a similar ratio in 'Nam as the "go switch" was thrown to full-auto and the trooper went into "spray & pray" mode.
> 
> America was once called a country of riflemen. Certainly that no longer holds true since our PC culture now frowns on guns and most of our youngsters are never taught how to properly shoot.
> 
> ...


I have two guns I figured would be my do all[until my back went out]
an FAL and M1A.I can hit at range with either but both have the firepower for up close and personal[I kept my 300 WM in reserve]NEITHER is a sniper rifle but BOTH can be.I guess when it comes to SHTF I'll be over the hill with my 8mm Mauser and Draco.I can dot a mouse's eye at 100 yards with the Mauser.


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

SnakeDoc said:


> The reality is that most of us from a standing, unsupported position would have a hard time shooting either rifle with the accuracy it is capable of. Bolt vs semi is another version of the 9mm vs .45 debate. The fact of the matter is there are so many other factors involved that the debate is pointless.
> 
> Our task as prepper/survivalists is to be proficient with what weapons WE HAVE. I would assume in a a true melt down I will also be scrounging weapons and ammo. I have a wide variety of guns and ammo. They range for Mosin 91-30s that cost me 69 bucks to high end ARs. I also have a wide variety of hand guns, shotguns etc. I have calibers that I might just encounter ammo in. I also have linked with neighbors for mutual support.
> 
> I have lately been working on a plan to secure my small rural town from outside threat should the ballon go up. All of these concerns are far more important to me than bolt vs auto.


*Doc your 100% right about working to secure your small town.. I believe more people will make that way then alone.. in a SHTF the person who remains calm and has a plan will find himself in charge because most folks ain't got a clue.. of course that's assuming one wants to be in charge.. I'd rather do it then trust it somebody whose only claim to fame is being the Mayor of the Chief of Police , neither of which is proof of ability in a SHTF event... but one may want to also have a plan to move on if the PTB head off in a direction I don't wanna go... you'll be surprised at how many city leaders will want to disarm the towns population " for the common good" .

The smaller the town the better up to a point.. a place small enough that most folks know each other is about right..

I really liked the thought that went into the book "Lights out"... that's a great book that brings it all together...*


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

Jezcruzen said:


> ...I personally own ARs, AKs, and FALs. I like them a lot and wouldn't hesitate grabbing any of them for a defensive application. However, if I want a rifle in the truck, or one to sling over my shoulder as I do a recce around the place, I wouldn't feel slighted or under-armed taking a bolt-action. Whats not to like? Accurate, potent caliber, light weight, fast, and fed by a box magazine that can quickly be switched out with a fresh one! I wouldn't necessarily choose it to assault Tora Bora, but, OTOH, a potent .308 would be better than the 5.56, wouldn't you agree?


I agree that many of us are limited as to what we can afford. And I agree that the normal pace of daily life calls for a bolt gun most of the time.

*But we are not preparing for a normal life, here.* We have the benefit of hindsight from many... including people like FerFAL and his experience with SHTF. He's taken the time to detail why a semi-auto is to be desired. I have my own experiences during my police days. And there are many other real-world examples ranging from the day-to-day (metro news) to the extreme (Mumbai, Beslan). These collective experiences are convincing.

I do not fear monger. But I do heed these witnesses, apply them to my situation and prepare myself.

For a firearm that means an semi-auto rifle of at least intermediate caliber. It is reasonable and may be afforded by many. Good training is readily available.

7.62 and 5.56 have their advantages. For my terrain and experience I choose AR/5.56 and the appropriate ammunition. I've completed my research, pared my fantasies and have moved on to other prep.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

FerFAL emphasized the importance of having a semi-auto PISTOL that was concealable. Carrying a weapon out in the open, especially any rifle (according to him) would immediately draw the attention of the authorities with the result of the rifle being taken away.

He also was not a fan of living out in the boonies in an attempt of escaping any mayhem in the urban areas. According to FerFAL, being isolated was being a target.

In a similar breakdown here, I imagine we would also put more reliance in our concealable pistols, leaving the long guns at home.


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

Jezcruzen said:


> FerFAL emphasized the importance of having a semi-auto PISTOL that was concealable. Carrying a weapon out in the open, especially any rifle (according to him) would immediately draw the attention of the authorities with the result of the rifle being taken away.
> 
> He also was not a fan of living out in the boonies in an attempt of escaping any mayhem in the urban areas. According to FerFAL, being isolated was being a target.
> 
> In a similar breakdown here, I imagine we would also put more reliance in our concealable pistols, leaving the long guns at home.


I wasn't talking about his pistol comments.

He has more than one on rifles, and specifically recommends a semi-auto rifle over a bolt gun. I will try to find it later.

And that's just one source... not to mention my and others' experiences.


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

Fn/Form said:


> I wasn't talking about his pistol comments.
> 
> He has more than one on rifles, and specifically recommends a semi-auto rifle over a bolt gun. I will try to find it later.
> 
> And that's just one source... not to mention my and others' experiences.


Scroll down to Part II, and then to the "Guns, Ammo and Other Gear" heading.
SURVIVING IN ARGENTINA: October 2008

A few other FerFAL links on the subject:

SURVIVING IN ARGENTINA: The first rifle you should buy

SURVIVING IN ARGENTINA: Assault rifles vs 7.62 Nato rifles

If I have time I will relate some of my own experiences/thoughts.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

I read your links. I had read them previously, but its good info. and important to refresh one's knowledge. Thanks.

You don't have to convince me of the value of a quality semi-auto in the role of security or self-defense. As I stated, I own a number of semi-autos personally, probably ten or more. I also own six bolt-guns from .22 to .308. I like them all.

If called by a neighbor and informed that we might be having a problem with interlopers, I would certainly reach for a semi-auto and its mated web gear as I headed out the door. I live in a somewhat closed community were observation by outsiders really isn't an issue as to how I'm "kitted up" or what I'm carrying. Others may not have that advantage where they live, and might soon become the focus of the local authorities as they jogged down their block wearing a ranger rack and toting an AR.

But, as I stated, if I were to simply feel the need or desire to go out and do a "walkabout" checking on things I wouldn't feel slighted taking a bolt-gun and a side-arm. 

Another issue seldom discussed is the perception of by-standers to someone having a military look-a-like, which to the unschooled is a "MACHINEGUN!", oh, my, and will certainly solicit a call to 911 or wherever or whoever the current "authority" might be. Regardless, the unwanted attention is not desirable. However, if one resides in an area where hunting is a common activity, a bolt or lever gun will not raise the alarm as readily, nor are you as likely to be viewed by Deputy Fife as a terrorist. For much the same reasons I do not dress all tacticool when I venture out. Unwanted attention is... well... unwanted.


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## lickit (Oct 6, 2011)

*crank a bolt is one thing, get the hit is another.*

manual working of the action disturbs the aim far, far more than simple up and back recoil of an auto and a gas operated 556 has very little such movement. I once had a friend who had a "fast" Enfield, or so he thought, anyway. I set up 2 torso targets, at 25 yds. I aimed in at mine and waited until he fired, then I fired until he fired again. I got 6 hits, his second shot MISSED. This was with ear protection, good light, non moving targets, nobody trying to kill us. Now, do you really think that you can hold your mud with that bolt action, when several enemies are pouring semi auto fire at you? If it's at night, even a "mere" .22 has 100m of lethal range, you know. The LOSERS of WW2 had bolt actions, against our M1 Garands and carbines, you know! Just because ignorant people "wouldn't feel underarmed" with a bolt action doesn't make it so, you know.


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## rico567 (Nov 2, 2008)

Use what you have, or get what you can become comfortable and accurate with, and / or can afford to shoot to get that way. A lot of folks can't afford an armory, but that's no handicap. "Beware of the man who shoots one gun, he probably knows how to use it."

1. I love the previous post in this thread that says that the first thing to think of when getting into a shootout is.....don't. Learn caution, avoidance, evasion. You may not always be able to do that, but it reduces the chances of an engagement. That approach may not work on every occasion, but it minimizes such threats. Remember: you can do everything right in a gunfight and still end up dead. Easy way to remember is Kenny Rogers: "Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run."

2. My personal choice of "a" gun is something in 7.62 x 51 NATO (.308 Win.). A lot of the reasons for that are outlined in this thread or in links to it, so I won't go into that. Bolt action or semi-auto? Well....preferably have both. I have the semi-auto option, but if I had to choose only one, it would be my '98 Mauser conversion.

3. In terms of the first and last gun to have around, it's hard to beat a '94 Winchester in .30-30. Simple, reliable, lightweight, great to 100 yards on "deer-sized game." (For those interested, the .30-30 is about on par in muzzle energy with the 7.62 x 39 fired by the AK-47, SKS, and other Eastern Bloc weapons.) Six in the magazine, chamber empty, hammer down, it sits behind the door, in the cabinet, or over the mantel, as ready for many situations as it has been for the past century.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

I expect to use a shotgun to defend my home against intruders. I don't expect to go after anybody outside. To me, ammunition has to be used very carefully after it hits the fan. I would very hesitant to use an automatic weapon. Not unless I had more than one person shooting at me.


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## VUnder (Sep 1, 2011)

Jezcruzen said:


> I read some statistics a while ago that stated how many tens of thousands of rounds on average were fired for each "kill" in the decade-long war in Afghanistan. It was staggering. I suspect it was a similar ratio in 'Nam as the "go switch" was thrown to full-auto and the trooper went into "spray & pray" mode.
> 
> America was once called a country of riflemen. Certainly that no longer holds true since our PC culture now frowns on guns and most of our youngsters are never taught how to properly shoot.
> 
> ...


Maybe a good rifle with something that makes it quiet....


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## VUnder (Sep 1, 2011)

rico567 said:


> Use what you have, or get what you can become comfortable and accurate with, and / or can afford to shoot to get that way. A lot of folks can't afford an armory, but that's no handicap. "Beware of the man who shoots one gun, he probably knows how to use it."
> 
> 1. I love the previous post in this thread that says that the first thing to think of when getting into a shootout is.....don't. Learn caution, avoidance, evasion. You may not always be able to do that, but it reduces the chances of an engagement. That approach may not work on every occasion, but it minimizes such threats. Remember: you can do everything right in a gunfight and still end up dead. Easy way to remember is Kenny Rogers: "Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run."
> 
> ...


I dropped a deer at 365 yards with a 30-30 and had witnesses. I was still in high school, last day of season, right at dark, but it did kill that deer. A lot of people bring me thier guns to shoot because they can't hit with them. I shoot it maybe three times, hit, hand it back and tell them there isn't anything wrong with thier gun, then they can shoot it just fine and hit with it. I will never understand that. Maybe it is a confidence thing. Shooting and hitting is always a variable. Maybe some can't handle not being in control of a variable.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

VUnder said:


> I dropped a deer at 365 yards with a 30-30 and had witnesses. I was still in high school, last day of season, right at dark, but it did kill that deer. A lot of people bring me thier guns to shoot because they can't hit with them. I shoot it maybe three times, hit, hand it back and tell them there isn't anything wrong with thier gun, then they can shoot it just fine and hit with it. I will never understand that. Maybe it is a confidence thing. Shooting and hitting is always a variable. Maybe some can't handle not being in control of a variable.


I hear ya, it is a poor mechanic that blames his tools.


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## lefty (Sep 29, 2011)

weapons are tools, you do not have one hammer in a tool box so wht have one gun. MY grandfather taought me that EVERYONE should have a 22lr, a shotgun, a good pistol and a good rifle with them you can defend your home and put food on the table. His go to rifle was a marlin 30-30 and his pistol was a 357 revolver.

I have followed that advice, and add tools to my tool box as a can.

THere is no all around gun it depends, I might grad my K98 or a shotgun it all depends.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

It really all boils down to what you feel comfortable with, what you are satisfied with, and what you feel is the most practical gun for the job at hand.

On the other hand as I have told my wife on more than one occasion "there is no such thing as to many guns".  For some weird reason she just doesn't believe that, go figure.


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## lefty (Sep 29, 2011)

oldvet said:


> It really all boils down to what you feel comfortable with, what you are satisfied with, and what you feel is the most practical gun for the job at hand.
> 
> On the other hand as I have told my wife on more than one occasion "there is no such thing as to many guns".  For some weird reason she just doesn't believe that, go figure.


I told my wife that it was a law that if you had an empty slot in your gun safe then you had to fill it, and once you fill it the law states you have to buy a new safe. She did not bite either.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

Whether its fishing rods or guns, whats worked well for me over the years is having enough of both that a new one can be added without notice. That is, if your sons can keep their mouths shut, i.e. (sitting together for dinner) "Dad, have you sighted in that new rifle yet?"


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## TechAdmin (Oct 1, 2008)

lefty said:


> I told my wife that it was a law that if you had an empty slot in your gun safe then you had to fill it, and once you fill it the law states you have to buy a new safe. She did not bite either.


It worked for my carport, now that I'm out of space she says I can't buy a chainsaw, edger, etc since I have no where to put it.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

lefty said:


> I told my wife that it was a law that if you had an empty slot in your gun safe then you had to fill it, and once you fill it the law states you have to buy a new safe. She did not bite either.


It's a funny thing how our wives feel when it comes to "more guns" or "more fishing rods".

They just can't grasp the concept that we are programed to automatically want what is brand new on the market and that we know without a doubt that it will out perform any other rod or gun out there. :dunno:

I think that it is a genetic trait in women to automatically doubt our sincerity when we say that if we can't have that new rod or gun, it will mentally scar us for the rest of our lives and we will never be able to do anything except sit around drooling accompanied with spontanious bouts of wailing and kicking our feet on the floor. :gaah:


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

Once I bought my wife a pistol for her b-day... she didnt believe it was for her... 

Now we are having a boy in Nov/Dec and I have already suggested we start up his gun collection! Nope, it hasnt work on her yet. :surrender:


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

TheAnt said:


> Once I bought my wife a pistol for her b-day... she didnt believe it was for her...
> 
> Now we are having a boy in Nov/Dec and I have already suggested we start up his gun collection! Nope, it hasnt work on her yet. :surrender:


 LOL. I must admit that is a novel idea to try, except that all my kids are grown and OH WAIT, I betcha I can still convince her that my Daughter and her kids need some new guns. :2thumb: :dunno: It's worth a try.


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

*Yawlz not doing it right... first of all, if you're getting a safe, get a big one.. then when the urge to get another rifle head out the door with a hard case mumbling about dropping your bestest damn deer gun and messing the scope up... OH did I mention the case it empty?  , leave the case in your rig for a few days then stroll in with the newby all smiles and saying, damn that fall never budged the zero!! I am so lucky!!... and keep the safe combo to you're self!!

I have a buddy who has a credit card that he uses to make clandestine gun buys... the bill goes to his office  , when it's paid off he starts looking again!... good plan...

I always said " I'm the man I'm gonna do what I wanna... of course I'm not married anymore.. BUT I do have a boat load of toys !! they are not soft to sleep with tho

after I get all I could ever want I may try getting married again...or not!...now if I could find a hottie who owns a gun / Liquor store combo!!! OH YEA!! *


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

HozayBuck said:


> *Yawlz not doing it right... first of all, if you're getting a safe, get a big one.. then when the urge to get another rifle head out the door with a hard case mumbling about dropping your bestest damn deer gun and messing the scope up... OH did I mention the case it empty?  , leave the case in your rig for a few days then stroll in with the newby all smiles and saying, damn that fall never budged the zero!! I am so lucky!!... and keep the safe combo to you're self!!
> 
> I have a buddy who has a credit card that he uses to make clandestine gun buys... the bill goes to his office  , when it's paid off he starts looking again!... good plan...
> 
> ...


Hozay! Hozay! Wake up! Wake up my friend! You're talking in you sleep again!!!


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

TheAnt said:


> Hozay! Hozay! Wake up! Wake up my friend! You're talking in you sleep again!!!


I wish! been reading a running Zombie story written by the folks in another site, a gun porn site,called We The Armed in case anybody wants to read a good shoot em up written by folks like us I'll post the link ..it's LONGGGGG...and it is awesome gun porn! lol... but it's kept me up until after midnight for a week and I'm just past half way...

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Login - WeTheArmed.com


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## sailaway (Mar 12, 2009)

oldvet said:


> It's a funny thing how our wives feel when it comes to "more guns" or "more fishing rods".
> 
> They just can't grasp the concept that we are programed to automatically want what is brand new on the market and that we know without a doubt that it will out perform any other rod or gun out there. :dunno:
> 
> I think that it is a genetic trait in women to automatically doubt our sincerity when we say that if we can't have that new rod or gun, it will mentally scar us for the rest of our lives and we will never be able to do anything except sit around drooling accompanied with spontanious bouts of wailing and kicking our feet on the floor. :gaah:


Just remember this," It's easier to beg forgiveness than ask Permission!" but then I'm getting divorced!


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## sailaway (Mar 12, 2009)

No matter what gun or guns you have you should learn to shoot them well. I would recomend learning at an Appleseed Event, they are all about hitting your target every time. and if you can read this without a silly British Accent thank a revolutionary war vet.


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## lefty (Sep 29, 2011)

oldvet said:


> It's a funny thing how our wives feel when it comes to "more guns" or "more fishing rods".
> 
> They just can't grasp the concept that we are programed to automatically want what is brand new on the market and that we know without a doubt that it will out perform any other rod or gun out there. :dunno:
> 
> I think that it is a genetic trait in women to automatically doubt our sincerity when we say that if we can't have that new rod or gun, it will mentally scar us for the rest of our lives and we will never be able to do anything except sit around drooling accompanied with spontanious bouts of wailing and kicking our feet on the floor. :gaah:


I can't complain too much mine likes guns even claimed my 357 as her's, the other day we were talking about the occupy movment and i said there is going to be trouble with this adn she asked if we had enough ammo. and yes I ordered some the next day. :2thumb:


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## lefty (Sep 29, 2011)

sailaway said:


> No matter what gun or guns you have you should learn to shoot them well. I would recomend learning at an Appleseed Event, they are all about hitting your target every time. and if you can read this without a silly British Accent thank a revolutionary war vet.


mot only do you have to know how to use them but you have to have ENOUGH ammo. My rule is 200 rds for each non SHTF gun. For SHTF guns there is never enough.


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## stand (Nov 15, 2011)

*Fantasies are not reality. Get that straight, ok?*

When you are under fire, the targets are dodging torsos or heads that are bobbing around cover. It can be dark, raining, very cold, have snow or fog in your way. You will probably, if it is shtf, be depressed, have dysentery/diahrea, be dehydrated, exhausted, and so on. You will be horribly outgunned with your 5 shot bolt action, which will make you miss more often, not less. If it's a combat scenario, you probably won't have any ear protection. Try some rapidfire sometime, without ear protection, and see how much "precision" hitting you do with your bolt action!


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

stand said:


> When you are under fire, the targets are dodging torsos or heads that are bobbing around cover. It can be dark, raining, very cold, have snow or fog in your way. You will probably, if it is shtf, be depressed, have dysentery/diahrea, be dehydrated, exhausted, and so on. You will be horribly outgunned with your 5 shot bolt action, which will make you miss more often, not less. If it's a combat scenario, you probably won't have any ear protection. Try some rapidfire sometime, without ear protection, and see how much "precision" hitting you do with your bolt action!


Pardon me, but your post is strongly reminiscent of someone else who is no longer on here. No offense. Just an observation.


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## lefty (Sep 29, 2011)

A lot depends on what STHF situation you are planning for and what your plan is. I for one regardless on the situation plan on stay low and avoid notiice approach. When the SHTF I have no plan or desire to lead a trained fire team on a town / house clearing operation or go out on a search and destroy mission. As it is me and my family I plan to avoid a fire fight if at all possible. I do not want to go running around playing road warrior or like it is a video game. I do have certain weapons for certain task, depending on your plan and location a bolt might serve you just fine.


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## stand (Nov 15, 2011)

*You can easily need an autoloader for one enemy.*

Contrary to what many seem to "think" about their wonderful skills with a rifle. In WWI, the rounds fired per hit achieved was still several hundred. You are not immune to flinching when you are being shot at, and shooting without ear protection. Trouble can happen at night, in bad weather, etc. To bet your life on silly assumptions is not smart, folks.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

Jezcruzen said:


> I read some statistics a while ago that stated how many tens of thousands of rounds on average were fired for each "kill" in the decade-long war in Afghanistan. It was staggering. I suspect it was a similar ratio in 'Nam as the "go switch" was thrown to full-auto and the trooper went into "spray & pray" mode.
> ... *It got me to thinking, for almost any scenario we here might have to contend with in the future*(emphasis mine), might an accurate bolt (or lever) gun you are good with be better (one shot, one kill) than a semi-auto that would seduce you into expending four, five, or more rounds for the same result? Think about it... that old codger with his 30-30 making a kill every time he pulls the trigger or that youngster with the semi-auto that has put a lot of lead down range but has yet to hit his target.
> 
> I know many of you are good with your semi-autos. I like to think I am as well. Still, I can make hits with my trusty deer rifle through a thicket or across a field that I question making with my semi-autos. Just think about it.
> ...


Hunting season is upon us so I'm taking either my 30/30 lever gun or my 338 Win Mag to look for deer and elk. If I had any inkling that someone was, or might be, hunting me or mine I'd have considerably more firepower. It's pretty much a no-brainer from my view. Why handicap yourself if you don't have to???

There seems to be an underlying assumption that people with semi or full automatic rifles can't shoot them accurately. Why? Is it somehow easier to shoot a single shot rifle accurately simply because you cannot follow up a miss so easily? If that's the case lets all get muzzle loading rifles where we have only one shot then a very slow reload. Wouldn't that make us better marksmen? Nonsense!!!! If you're too lazy to learn how to shoot a semi-auto accurately then you're probably too lazy to survive anything serious anyway.

Think of it this way ... I can shoot a semi-auto just as accurately as any bolt action or muzzle loader I own. However, in a SHTF situation if someone has attacked us I will have my scoped "battle rifle" with it's 30 round mag. fully loaded. If one shot will do the job that's what I'll do. If I need to rip off a bunch of ammo to provide cover fire while one of my sons moves to safety or a better firing position I'll be doing that too. Use your heads people!!!!! Use the most efficient weapon at your disposal for the job at hand!

There is no modern military in the world that handicaps thier soldiers with bolt action rifles. Why should you handicap yourself?


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

Jezcruzen said:


> Pardon me, but your post is strongly reminiscent of someone else who is no longer on here. No offense. Just an observation.


Jez, I do believe you have nailed it.

Stand:
I betcha if you tried real hard you could find some other site that is populated by a bunch of morons that won't realize what you are trying to do.
The folks on this site are quite a bit sharper than most and can see through your BS in a New York second.
I believe that I read as a child that Trolls live under bridges so why don't you find yourself a nice cozy ditch under a bridge and sit in it while you spout BS and drool on yourself. Just FYI this is the one and only time I will respond to any of your posts. Now go bother some other child like individuals such as yourself.


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

*I was looking thru the newest Dillon catalog and saw a full page ad by

German K98 Mauser Rifle by Mitchell's Mausers

And I was really blown away with some of these rifles!... the prices on some very fine ones is pretty high..but since i love the old Mauser and own 2 I'd like to have another!

One is a Yugo from the ww2 era, the other is a Swedish Mauser made in 1917 !!! and it's very nice!! bolt guns do have a place..in my life anyway...*


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

HozayBuck said:


> *... bolt guns do have a place..in my life anyway...*


I don't believe that having a bolt gun is a problem. I have several and love them all but in a defensive (or offensive) situation it only makes sense to use the best tool for the job that you have available. If a bolt gun is all you have to bring to a gun fight it's going to be much more effective than a knife or club. But you're still probably going to find yourself at a disadvantage. This isn't a video game where we have multiple lives to expend. In a firefight I'd rather have a semi-auto 22 than a center-fire, bolt action sniper rifle. In fact, the first firearm I recommend that people purchase is a semi-auto 22 and lots of ammo. If that's the only firearm you have you'll do okay if you learn how to use it well.


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## lefty (Sep 29, 2011)

HozayBuck said:


> *I was looking thru the newest Dillon catalog and saw a full page ad by
> 
> German K98 Mauser Rifle by Mitchell's Mausers
> 
> ...


The K98's are great guns. I have one my grandfather picked up on Omaha beach. very smooth and I enjoy shooting it. Now having said that i still would grab it if there were goblins at the door.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

It's hard to improve on something that really needs no improvement. I would imagine that is why a lot of modern bolt guns are based on the K98, Yep it is a sweet shooting machine, accurate and the action is extreemly strong. I have had the pleasure of shooting several of them in the past and was never disapointed. I do plan on getting one of the Mitchel K98's to use as a back up for my "go to" bolt gun. 

The bolt gun has it's place just as the semi, select fire (full auto capable), and full auto's do. 

No I would not want a bolt gun for my MBR, a person would be at a very serious disadvantage with having only a bolt gun in a fire fight. 

I also realize that a bolt gun beats a "pocket full of rocks", but again IMHO should be used only in a sniper role with back up available.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

I looked HARD at buying one of Mitchell's mausers not long ago. It had the original eagle and swatstika and arsenal marks that were not defaced as is the case on most of the Weirmacht rifles. The rifle was pristine, having been re-arsenaled. I hesitated. Money was a little tight. I had just bought a gun. I couldn't justify the Mauser. What a dope!


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

This last post reminded me of when I was 16 and worked PT in the sporting goods dept. of a K-Mart store. In the fall before hunting season, the manager would get in a load of old surplus military rifles. There were Mausers, Enfields, some of the early FNs (pre-FAL)... They were all sorta piled up along a shelf for people to pick through. I bought a sportarized 8mm Mauser for.... ready?.... $36! Those were the days!


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

Jezcruzen said:


> This last post reminded me of when I was 16 and worked PT in the sporting goods dept. of a K-Mart store. In the fall before hunting season, the manager would get in a load of old surplus military rifles. There were Mausers, Enfields, some of the early FNs (pre-FAL)... They were all sorta piled up along a shelf for people to pick through. I bought a sportarized 8mm Mauser for.... ready?.... $36! Those were the days!


I hear ya, at least you bought one then. I was a partner in a local gun shop back in the early to mid 90's and we were able to get pristine SK's for under a hundred bucks and AK's for around a hundred and a half or less. Do I have any of those rifles now?... Nope... Can you say dumb a$$? I knew that you could. Every time I look at the prices of SK's and AK's, I still want to kick myself.


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## lefty (Sep 29, 2011)

oldvet said:


> I hear ya, at least you bought one then. I was a partner in a local gun shop back in the early to mid 90's and we were able to get pristine SK's for under a hundred bucks and AK's for around a hundred and a half or less. Do I have any of those rifles now?... Nope... Can you say dumb a$$? I knew that you could. Every time I look at the prices of SK's and AK's, I still want to kick myself.


Would of should of could of. LOL I feel your pain. I did get a Maddi Ak for $125 years ago should of bought a dozen.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

Since we are taking turns a self-flagellation...

I had owned Galils (real ones), HK91s, "Legend" AKs, M1As, Valmets, and a host of others that are selling for mind boggling prices if you can even find one. All gone! Sales. Trades... 

If only.......... :gaah:


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

*This is one that caught my eye, simply because...well...because! It's not "real" it's a put together but damn it's cute and in 06 or 308 would be a hoot! I'd go for the 30-06 since i have a huge batch of brass and no longer own one... I might put a scout scope on it to...

As for SHTF times yea my AK's would get the nod, but for most uses a bolt gun is my pick..

M63 Tanker Mauser Rifle*


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

Sweet! I, however, will stick with my Ruger Scout with its box mag. (does have the Mauser action, though) Wish it took stripper clips.

I bet that little Mauser could be upgraded to a detachable box mag.


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

stand said:


> When you are under fire, the targets are dodging torsos or heads that are bobbing around cover. It can be dark, raining, very cold, have snow or fog in your way. You will probably, if it is shtf, be depressed, have dysentery/diahrea, be dehydrated, exhausted, and so on. You will be horribly outgunned with your 5 shot bolt action, which will make you miss more often, not less. If it's a combat scenario, you probably won't have any ear protection. Try some rapidfire sometime, without ear protection, and see how much "precision" hitting you do with your bolt action!


*I know you're "gone" again...I know you get busted every time you stick you're dumb ass in the door... but I just wanna say... Go away little boy..or girl as it may be... you're stupid injections of ******** bother us.. or is that the intent?... one day when you grow up and pull you're head out of that brown hole it's stuck in you may ..."MAY"...( hint!! this is a key word) ... have something to say that's worth the time to look at it.....naaa not gonna happen...

There I feel better... was a waste of words but oh well... feels good!...*


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

HozayBuck said:


> *I know you're "gone" again...I know you get busted every time you stick you're dumb ass in the door... but I just wanna say... Go away little boy..or girl as it may be... you're stupid injections of ******** bother us.. or is that the intent?... one day when you grow up and pull you're head out of that brown hole it's stuck in you may ..."MAY"...( hint!! this is a key word) ... have something to say that's worth the time to look at it.....naaa not gonna happen...*


AHHHH you're just PO'ed that you didn't get in on the fun before he got booted.


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

*I think the divide between the Bolt V Auto is being looked at wrongly in the sense of what each types purpose is , in a close in fight sure the auto will rule the day... IF you have enough ammo..and if you're in timber fighting at ranges such as one finds in timber... but in heavy timber a bolt gun is just as useful IF you shoot " only "when you have a target .. in open country a good bolt will do a better job.. if it has a scope it will do an even better job... now if you are fighting Zombies... then you want all the fire power you can carry...

I read a story someplace of a German who fought all the way thru the war and lived, just a rifleman... he told the interviewer that thru out the war he fired around 96 rounds...but almost all were hits.. He waited for the perfect shot and made it count..not a sniper..just a grunt.. hell he may have still been carrying some of his first issue ammo when the war ended....I was impressed by that because that's why he was still alive... good cover and paying attention...and not playing Rambo...

Whatever you have, use it practice with it, pile all the ammo you can , load for it if you can.. but be prepared to use it when the time comes.. then use it well! *


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

When I began this thread some time ago my only purpose was to point out that for some people the bolt-gun fills their needs. Unfortunately it almost immediately morphed into battlefield scenarios and multiple attackers. I still contend that if I were going out to kick around for the day or do a "walkabout" around the place, I would not hesitate taking along a bolt gun. Lever-actions and bolt-guns have gone along in our pick-up trucks for a lot of years and will continue long into the future, I hope.


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## lefty (Sep 29, 2011)

Jezcruzen said:


> When I began this thread some time ago my only purpose was to point out that for some people the bolt-gun fills their needs. Unfortunately it almost immediately morphed into battlefield scenarios and multiple attackers. I still contend that if I were going out to kick around for the day or do a "walkabout" around the place, I would not hesitate taking along a bolt gun. Lever-actions and bolt-guns have gone along in our pick-up trucks for a lot of years and will continue long into the future, I hope.


It seems most of the time a shtf gun discussion turns into a run and gun post apcoliptic shoot um up.

My grandfathers' gun was his marlin 30-30 and I must say I love it too


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

Jezcruzen said:


> When I began this thread some time ago my only purpose was to point out that for some people the bolt-gun fills their needs. Unfortunately it almost immediately morphed into battlefield scenarios and multiple attackers. I still contend that if I were going out to kick around for the day or do a "walkabout" around the place, I would not hesitate taking along a bolt gun. Lever-actions and bolt-guns have gone along in our pick-up trucks for a lot of years and will continue long into the future, I hope.


If this was your purpose it wasn't very clear in the first post. If I may quote you, *"It got me to thinking, for almost any scenario we here might have to contend with in the future,..."*.

That would kind of open up the discussion towards self and retreat defense including some patrolling or pre-emptive strikes if needed for your own security.

Also, semi-autos can be quite accurate. I know a guy who hunts with a Browning semi-auto in 300 Win. Mag. killing everything from deer and elk to coyotes and gophers. He routinely hits coyotes 350 yards away with the first (and only) shot.

I seldom bring my MBR hunting but at the present time no one is hunting me. Should that change you can believe that whenever I have someplace to go it will be my MBR that accompanies me.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

Oh, yes, I own up to that quote and still contend that it is accurate. "For most situations...", yes, a bolt-gun will do assuming that you are proficient with it.

It ties in to a post I made in the preparedness section - "Are we mixing fiction with reality?" when we often ignore the things that are most likely to occur and prepare for but, instead, go straight for the apocalypse, each succeeding post more dire than the last. 

I don't envision running gun battles on a daily basis in our future or having to fight off hordes of zombies coming to kill me. Could it happen? Well, yes, but its not likely. "For MOST situations", remember. 

I own semi's. I may very well have more than you. I like them, shoot them, and have no issue with carrying them. I never stated they were not accurate. I'm just of the opinion that I will not have reason to leave the house each day some time in the future with a full combat load-out. If you are of a different opinion, thats fine. But why the attacks on me for my opinion by some (not many) by basically insinuating my thought on the issue is somehow stupid?


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

Jez,

You are correct, each person should carry what they are comfortable and proficient with. I would imagine the situation at that time will dictate what you would carry on a daily basis. Semi's, levers, shotguns and bolt's all have their uses and that fact should be taken into consideration when trying to decide which gun to take with you.

If you are on your own property and only had to get back to your house:
you could carry your MBR with maybe one extra mag. 
You could carry your bolt gun with maybe 20 extra rounds.
You could carry a lever action with maybe 20 extra rounds
you could carry a shotgun with maybe 20 extra rounds

Any one of the above should be all you would need to be able to cover your retreat back to your fighting position, where I would hope you would have your MBR and plenty of ammo.

I will add that the shotgun was not mentioned and it is an excellent all around weapon that can be used for most types of hunting and if need be for self protection. It can also function quite effectively as a MBR for close in fighting.

All of this IMO boils down to what type of situation each individual faces and what type of weapon that individual chooses to carry to deal with that situation. We can argue the merits of each type of weapon until we are blue in the face, but I doubt that it would change anyone's mind.


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## Claymore5150 (Nov 17, 2011)

Just a quick notation of the rounds vs. hits based upon the military main battle rifles, marksmanship, and what that numbers really add up to.

WW2, the standard battle rifle was the m1. 8 round capacity, semi auto.
Korea, the standard battle rifle was the m1. 8 round capacity semi auto.
Vietnam, standard battle rifles were the m14 (basically a cut down and modified m1 with detachable magazine) then the M-16 select fire semi/full auto 20-30 round magazines.

Through all three of these conflicts, we did have machine gunners AND soldiers/marines with fully automatic sub-machine guns. (sub-machine guns are small rifles that fire pistol rounds...like the Tommy gun, Uzi, MP-5, etc...they don't fire full sized rifle rounds) 

Picture this...WW2 with full auto rifles on every soldier and double the ammo. Korea, too. I believe that we could assume that every one of our fighting men would rock and roll towards the enemy, full tilt boogie, and probably hit about the same amount, in a theoretical scenario.

That being said, the days of the standard soldier/marine being equipped with a semi auto with 8 round magazines are obsolete...just like the days of men standing in formation, 3 ranks deep, firing muskets at each other in an open field and NOT TAKING COVER. 

We infantrymen, in the days of the m-16a2 and select fire, were taught marksmanship with those main battle rifles, in primarily a semi-auto fashion, with sectors of fire containing static, pop up, and pop up-moving targets from 25m and out to 300m and beyond. 
This, of course, is during the days of the 20" barrel. I cannot speak for what distances that the current crop of American fighting men/women are being taught with the m16a4/m4 variants these days, due to the more limited accuracy range of the 16/18" barrels.

All of that aside, when it comes to marksmanship, the soldiers and marines of the US fighting force are well versed with hitting targets both static and moving, and out to the effective ranges of their current battle rifles. Probably the best trained in the world, as a whole. 

Side Note: I say the soldiers and marines only because the Air Force and Navy do not train nearly as much (1 week or so vs 13 weeks constant) with the battle rifles. 

The marksmanship "issues" lie within the crumbling foundations of our citizens themselves. From 1607 (Jamestown) until now, dependence on firearms has dramatically decreased. There isn't a need to get a squirrel or two for the stew pot any more. Not when you can go to the store and pickup stew meat for $5 a pound.
There aren't "******" in the wood line ready to scalp you and kill your family all day, every day. 
The necessities have changed. Our so-called "militias" are the National Guardsmen, run by the state...
Law Enforcement officers and security personnel, a percentage of which are former military or from LEO/Military families have training, but they are a very small percentage of the total population.
Only the lucky ones who were brought up around firearms, or developed a liking/love for them later in life, are the advocates of marksmanship...and how many of those have more than 1 week of truly "formal" training? 

Rifles are tools, so are the infantry soldiers and marines. Only tools. You cannot expect a hammer to slice an orange. Infantry rocks and rolls, shooting, moving, communicating. I'd rather have a bunch of well placed burst or full auto, correctly spaced firing to cover me while I move, than 5 semi autos covering me. Would you rather move along with a wall of lead or with sporadic gunfire that may or may not keep the guy from popping up to shoot you?

Give a soldier or marine a scoped bolt action rifle, teach him/her the skills to use it, teach them to stalk, hide, egress, and you now have a one shot-one kill tool at your disposal.

And y'all are very correct...apples and oranges. It's the same with the military, the equipment then vs. now...just like the civil war vs WW1 vs WW2. 

So, what's best for the coming days, a bolt action or semi? That all depends on you, your skills, your needs, and your wallet. Spend enough time with a revolver and you can put rounds on target just as fast as a 1911 or 9mm, reloading and all. Spend enough time with a pump shotgun, you can put rounds on target just as fast and accurately as a semi.

Rifles ARE different, though. We aren't talking pistol or shotgun/slug range here. We are talking your area and how far you NEED to be able to shoot accurately. If you're talking anything over 250 yds, if you don't know how to breathe, control your heart rate, or squeeze a trigger properly, you aren't gonna have much luck hitting anything with any type of consistency at all, scoped, bolt/semi, open sights, etc....you might as well throw water balloons at it.

I don't suggest squirrel hunting with a .300 Magnum, I also don't suggest taking on a deer with a .177 red rider and a tube of copperhead BB's. 

Most would consider a pistol as a secondary weapon to get to your main weapon, or at least a weapon of great capacity and range. In some instances, as stated before, that just isn't possible. If you're at Walgreens and some pill head punk starts popping shots at you and the other patrons while trying to get some Oxycotins, it just isn't feasible trying to get to your trunk for your SKS or AR.

Here's a rule of thumb I try to go by when it comes to firearms and being prepared. 
Pistol - use the same caliber as your local police force. 9mm/.40cal Ask and find out.
Shotgun - same thing. Normally a 12ga.
Rifle - use what your National Guard does, and most police keep in their trunk. AR15, .223/5.56.
Why? Because if it all goes downhill, you'll probably want your weapon to be compatible with the prevalent "good guy" weapons around you, especially if they turn out to be "not so good guys". 

Bolt vs Semi? I guess magazine capacity could be the better question. Do you want 30rds before a reload or 8? 
If you keep a thousand or more rounds in storage, does it really matter at that point? It does in a fire fight. I want 30, every time. With loaded magazines wherever I put my hand.
I've been on the bolt gun as well, paid to do it. Different tool for a different mission. I'll take the bolt gun when I need dead on balls accuracy, at distance, EVERY time over a semi.
If the zombie horde is coming at my house en masse, screw the bolt gun, I need full rock n roll and a LOT of magazines because it's about to get personal and I have a bayonet lug and I'm not afraid to use it. 

Just like Jezcruzen started with, and mentioned many times...it's all about the situation AND YOUR preference. My only addition to it all....train with it, learn it inside and out. Make it second nature to load, unload, shoot, field strip, clean, reassemble, etc. Your life could depend on it, even blindfolded. (darkness)

Just don't take a knife to a gun fight....I digress.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

I'm surprised to find that this thread has popped back up to the top again!

Nice rundown, Claymore. Can't say that I disagree with any of it.

I would be my wish that none of us would ever have to engage in full out combat. But, I must admit that everyday that I read the news of what this criminal administration is up to, I can only see a bad end to it. I am not all that enthusiastic at my age about the prospect of forming up and taking care of business, but I'll do what I have to in order to defend and save the Republic.

If worse comes to worse, I intend on capturing me a select-fire... or, maybe an opponant will have my semi or bolt-gun. :dunno:


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