# The 9mm handgun challenge



## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

The other day I was having a conversation with a group of guys at the range, a couple of whom are self-appointed gun experts. Attending a single NRA course and volunteering at the range being their only qualifications for such an esteemed classification. We started talking about affordable handgun options for the "common person" who might have some familiarity with shooting but does not own a handgun. This was in the context of range officers being asked this often. This of course lead into the same old debate about Hi-Points, Kel-Tecs and polymer Taurus autos versus high end custom Glocks. That's when I decided it was time to go. 

One of the experts (who owns and carries a $2,000 Zev Tech Glock 19) stopped me and tried to get me to side with him. After all I own a custom G19 and a pile of other guns, surely we are like minded. I gave my standard spiel that I did not care for most of the budget offerings nor did I think one had to have a high end pistol to adequately protect themselves. I also added that there were many excellent used autos and wheel guns on the market that could be purchased for under $250 that were superior arms to the options discussed. He could not have disagreed more and in his opinion you had to exceed $500 to get something worth a damn. I told him I would take that challenge. We then discussed terms. 

He is going to buy or produce a factory stock gun in 9mm that cost more than $500 and I am going to buy or produce a factory stock gun in 9mm that cost $250 and we are going to run them side by side through a standard qualification course of fire at the range sometime in December. We have to provide proof of the price of the gun, we will be using the same ammo, the same number of magazines, etc. There will only be one range safety officer present who will be our score keeper and judge. The course will be scored by speed and accuracy. The loser's photo will be posted on the bulletin board in the range lobby along with a sign saying "I was bested by ______ and his _____ 9mm". 

I perused one of the local gun shops the other day and they had 5 used guns I could get for $250 that should do the trick: a Ruger 9E, a Ruger P89DC, a Taurus PT-92 (older production), a S&W SD9 and a S&W 915. I am going to think on it for a bit and see what else is available for the price point. I want to have at least a week or two of range time with it before the competition.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

I got a used, LEO trade-in S&W that looked like new for just under $300. Just a touch of holster rash.

A $300 reliable firearm allows me to put all of my concentration towards what I'm punching holes in. $2,000 custom I'd be more concerned about putting a scratch on it then accurately punching holes.


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## RedBeard (May 8, 2017)

This sounds fun! Please keep us posted!


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## backlash (Nov 11, 2008)

That should be fun.
I would be trying to get in his head and make him really think about what loosing will mean.
Looking forward to the results.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

The gun to gun comparison is definitely part of this, but shutting down his constant 'Cliff Clavin' like expertise in all things gun related is a bigger part. He is the kind of guy who will shoot a slow fire 8" group at 15 yards but see you put one round out during rapid fire and come over to tell you what you are doing wrong and coach you. There are people who will call the range and ask who the range officers is before they come, just to avoid him. I am pretty confident that I could beat him with a j-frame snubby but I am still going to practice a bit and make sure. I should have made the terms "winner gets the other guys gun". As I am sure he will be dropping well over $500 (he is not poor).


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## havasu (Sep 4, 2011)

The top right target I shot 15 rounds at 15 yards using my buddies Beretta / Wilson Combat 92 G, which cost him $1300. The lower left were 15 shots from 15 yards using my new H&K VP9 tactical, which cost me $500. As you can see, I made a grave error and am going to purchase one of these Wilson Combat handguns.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

havasu said:


> The top right target I shot 15 rounds at 15 yards using my buddies Beretta / Wilson Combat 92 G, which cost him $1300. The lower left were 15 shots from 15 yards using my new H&K VP9 tactical, which cost me $500. As you can see, I made a grave error and am going to purchase one of these Wilson Combat handguns.
> 
> View attachment 21392


As my Dad used to tell me, putting multiple bullets into one organ doesn't kill a man as fast as putting multiple bullets into several organs.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

bfvaejwkL;ME;A
RBHJKWED


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Okay, so I am 95% sure I have the gun figured out. Police trade in Sig P250C 9mm. Seller wanted $275 and allegedly paid $325 for it, but has tentatively accepted my offer of $250. I have a lot of trigger time on the Sig P320C 9mm which is the striker fired version of this same gun. The two share the same grip module, the same controls, the same metal trigger and the same magazines. The P250C is hammer fired with a long very smooth pull, so that will take a little time to master. But I am no stranger to DAO guns from S&W, Beretta, etc. so I should be able to adapt pretty easily. As long as nothing goes wrong with the transaction I should have it in less than a week. Then I can start practicing.










On an unrelated note; all of this searching for used 9mm handguns for $250 or less has made me even less likely to ever recommend a "budget gun" from low QC manufacturers. There are so many good to very good duty grade guns out there that there is no reason to settle for bottom tier.


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## cqp33 (Apr 2, 2012)

I just bought a Kimber micro 9, first shoot with it I am liking it. good concealed carry firearm IMO.

I will be buying a Sig2022 as well, rally like that one but I wanted a concealed carry model this time around. Yup I am keeping my .45's but shifting to 9mm for carry purposes! Cheaper to shoot and 2 to the chest...dead is dead!


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## oldasrocks (Jun 30, 2012)

I am a poor lonely Taurus owner. But at 15 yards, 10 shots in 10 seconds I grouped 8 shots in a 3 inch circle. One was an inch high and one round 1/2 outside the circle at 11 am. 45acp

It's not the gun but the shooter.


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## terri9630 (Jun 2, 2016)

oldasrocks said:


> I am a poor lonely Taurus owner. But at 15 yards, 10 shots in 10 seconds I grouped 8 shots in a 3 inch circle. One was an inch high and one round 1/2 outside the circle at 11 am. 45acp
> 
> It's not the gun but the shooter.


Your not completely alone, I have a little 22 Taurus.


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## RedBeard (May 8, 2017)

I don't know i can't give up my .45. With +p rounds getting 1800fps that makes the old .45 sing.


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## ssonb (Oct 24, 2017)

The most accurate 45 I own is the PT1911 it is also the least expensive and finally it is a Tarus. I was surprised , I have custom 45s but this one seemed to have a majik about it.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

HI-power FTW every time IMHO. I hate polymer guns and dislike aluminum frames.


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## ssonb (Oct 24, 2017)

1800FPS!!!!!! I hope you are talking about a 45 magnum


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## cqp33 (Apr 2, 2012)

i get 1180fps out of my beretta CX4 with 185 grain TMJ's but thats out of a carbine not a pistol.

Edit - My beretta CX4 is .45


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

I like your idea and bet.. but.. i think used expensive and so now cheaper guns should probably be excluded if you are to compare performance differences between a "class" of guns.
Because you can buy an expensive gun used.. and then it kinda defeats the purpose.
There are some new full size guns from Taurus for just under 300 that might fit the bill.
On sale I would not be surprised if u find one under 250.
Also EAA has some 250 or under handguns that are clones of Walthers.

Actually I am sure you can beat him with a compact.. such as a Taurus PT111 Millennium G2. I shoot it very very close to my full size MP9 because of its fantastic stippling and the dimples are perfect to support a good grip.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Sorry guys, I am glad you had/have good luck with your Tauri and they work for you, but I see them fail so often at the range I could never trust them. The last time someone _was going to show me_ how the G2 could keep up with S&W/Glock/Sig/etc. his gun locked up and had to go back to Taurus twice 'til it worked again. That's why Taurus' CEO gets fired every few years and they have recently lost some major lawsuits. If I can buy a quality duty-grade gun for $250, there's no reason to buy a bottom tier gun.

I also could have picked up a Tristar, Canik, Sarsilmaz, Zenith, EAA or other gun from Turkey but they don't really interest me. Primarily because I don't like the idea of my money possibly ending up in the pocket of a terrorist or supporting terrorism.


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## terri9630 (Jun 2, 2016)

Sentry18 said:


> Sorry guys, I am glad you had/have good luck with your Tauri and they work for you, but I see them fail so often at the range I could never trust them. The last time someone _was going to show me_ how the G2 could keep up with S&W/Glock/Sig/etc. his gun locked up and had to go back to Taurus twice 'til it worked again. That's why Taurus' CEO gets fired every few years and they have recently lost some major lawsuits. If I can buy a quality duty-grade gun for $250, there's no reason to buy a bottom tier gun.
> 
> I also could have picked up a Tristar, Canik, Sarsilmaz, Zenith, EAA or other gun from Turkey but they don't really interest me. Primarily because I don't like the idea of my money possibly ending up in the pocket of a terrorist or supporting terrorism.


I use my tarus for playing at the range. I like it's size for CC but wouldn't trust my kids lives to it so I carry the shield instead.


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## bbqjoe (Feb 10, 2017)

Personally, I think to make it even more real, there should be no practice with the guns.
Store bought, price paid, right out of the box.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

bbqjoe said:


> Personally, I think to make it even more real, there should be no practice with the guns.
> Store bought, price paid, right out of the box.


Since this is about a "common person" buying a handgun for personal defense, I would sure hope "real" is not buying a gun and putting it to use without any practice. I would never trust a new or used gun without putting 250+ rounds down range.

Regardless we both spend about 10 hour a week at the range so neither of us really need much practice. All I need to do is adjust to the break and reset of the trigger, which could easily be done by dry fire.


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## ssonb (Oct 24, 2017)

I agree with S18 I have had experience with some of the smaller size Tauri and after a couple of NDs not the operators fault but a hang up in the striker, these are not guns I would carry.


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## fteter (May 23, 2014)

Regarding the Taurus discussion, my personal experience has been that they make some fine revolvers at fairly decent price points. Their semi-auto pistols are just not reliable enough to be trustworthy.

So far as the 9mm handgun challenge overall, better to have a trained and skilled person behind an inexpensive gun than to have the run-of-the-mill shooter behind the finest gun money can buy.


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## RedBeard (May 8, 2017)

ssonb said:


> 1800FPS!!!!!! I hope you are talking about a 45 magnum


No .45acp. Liberty ammunition civil defense. They claim 1900 but i have watched videos on the you tube and they get consistently get 1800fps. I shot a pig in the head once with one out of my g30, it was awesome! But i stager my bullets in my clip, 1 liberty round then a fmj, and so on. Wifes .40 has them too, they are just stupid out of that!

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...-fragmenting-hollow-point-lead-free-box-of-20

Liberty Civil Defense ammunition is a high velocity, extremely accurate load designed for self-defense. The 78 Grain Lead-Free Fragmenting Hollow Point bullet travels at 1900 feet per second, resulting in 12 inches of ballistic gel penetration and a permanent wound cavity greater than 5 inches in diameter. When tested through denim cloth into ballistic gel, this load penetrated almost 8 inches deep and produced a wound cavity 6 inches in diameter. This lightweight, high velocity round yields less felt recoil and has an effective range of 25 meters. This ammunition is new production, non-corrosive, and requires no weapons modifications.


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

Not to derail the thread... but my primary among the PT111 Millenium G2s (I own several) has approx 4000 rds thru it so the ammo has cost about 4 times as much as the gun.. . ..at that point its basically a free handgun IMO.. still run nicely...Also even tho I am more a Carbine guy than a handgun guy ..I still outshoot all my friends with it (which include a lot of Combat Arms ex mil, 1 ex SOF guy and some good citizen shooters)
My primary open carry shooter for things when get serious, is the S&W M&P9 and despite being a compact the Taurus shoots about 85% as good.

I think I would enjoy shooting against Sentry sometime


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## bountyhunter26 (Feb 2, 2010)

Sounds like quite the challenge. I have two 9mm. A Glock 17 and a S&W 459. Like both of them. My 17 was given to me by a lawyer who I worked for as an investigator and the 459 I bought from a GSP trooper when they transitioned to the Glock 40cal. I think I paid $285 for that. No problems from either weapon, both reliable. No issues here. But, today if I were to buy a 9mm I would have to let my finances decide on what I buy. Nothing wrong with a used gun as long as it was taken care of. I am not real fond of Berettas or Taurus but they are good weapons. So is Ruger just really depends on what your looking for I suppose.
Good luck on the competition!


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

I sent a text message to my opponent last week and another on Monday asking if he has selected his gun. He did not respond either time. But he reportedly (according to a mutual friend) purchased a CZ Shadow last week sometime and has been going to the range much more so than normal. He must be taking this very seriously.

According to our designated judge and referee, we will be shooting the NRA defensive pistol II course as Marskman 1st class shooters. Which is essentially drawing from a holster, firing 3 shots within 10 seconds, scanning and returning the gun to it's holster. We will shoot 10 times at each distance. While the NRA uses 21', we will shoot from 15', 30' feet and 60' for a total of 90 rounds. We will then shoot 10 head shots from varying distances. 2 shots in 3 seconds from low ready with the referee moving the targets in between shots. If there is a tie to be broken we will shoot 15 rounds from 15 yards in 15 seconds and the smallest group wins. 

I took out the P250 yesterday and ran a few 3 shot drills. Very smooth trigger and a very accurate gun. I just have to remember to let the trigger out all the way before pulling again. This gun will run best with an almost controlled trigger slap. Seems to like the Speer 124gr FMJ.


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

Any updates? This happen yet?


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

BlueZ said:


> Any updates? This this happen yet?


Nope, December 14th is the day. I have been out with my Sig P250 3-4 times and have spent a few hours dry firing it. My opponent did buy a CZ Shadow (not sure which exact model or configuration) and is apparently hitting the range often.

I was pretty happy to hear that he got a DA/SA versus a striker fired gun. He is a regular Glock shooter so just like me, he has to adapt to a new trigger. The difference being I used to carry a DAO S&W on duty for years and I have never seen him with or heard about him being a DA/SA shooter.


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## marlas1too (Feb 28, 2010)

I would not want my life to depend on a 9mm I want a 45 acp or a 357 mag. revolver no wasting bullets with them proven stopper and I ,my son and cousin all have them both--even a 38 special is better than a 9mm. 9mm have to have high cap mags. so they can put more rounds in hope the stop someone IMHO


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

marlas1too said:


> I would not want my life to depend on a 9mm I want a 45 acp or a 357 mag. revolver no wasting bullets with them proven stopper and I ,my son and cousin all have them both--even a 38 special is better than a 9mm. 9mm have to have high cap mags. so they can put more rounds in hope the stop someone IMHO


The margins of effectiveness between one handgun caliber to the next is so infinitesimal it is almost pointless. If one desires a handgun caliber with proven terminal effectiveness they should be carrying a a full load 10mm or .44 magnum; and even then you need to be skilled enough to cause major organ damage with each and every shot. But few people can handle, afford to own, can conceal or train enough to be a skilled practitioner with such calibers. This they are better off finding a balance between caliber, capacity, type of ammo, skill, training, practice and luck. For decades more people were killed with .22LR and .25acp than any other caliber, so luck is a huge factor.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

I try to avoid any conversation about what is the best round. They will always say that their best round is what they shoot.

But here is another way to look at it. The government is discontinuing the 45 and the 40 and going back to the 9mm. Here are there reasons for the 9mm. Back in WWII the 9MM was massively produced and because of this round was a lack luster performer, well now the 9mm is as good as any round out there and in most cases outperforms the others. What they also found out was the 9mm was scoring better scores with their agents and the military. And the one side of performance that most do not even thing about is penetration, which is less then the 45 and the 40. The government is trying to decrease the innocent bystander from getting hit in a fire fight.


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## bountyhunter26 (Feb 2, 2010)

Buy what you can afford. I have two 9mm and one 45. Depending on situation is which one I carry at any given time. My girlfriend and many other women can not shoot a 40 or 45 with ANY degree of accuracy. I don't care what any one says. It is still a matter of preference. If I had my druthers I would carry a 357 wheel gun. Yep I have one of those too!


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## Balls004 (Feb 28, 2015)

Tweto said:


> And the one side of performance that most do not even thing about is penetration, which is less then the 45 and the 40. The government is trying to decrease the innocent bystander from getting hit in a fire fight.


It's not about a round leaving a body because of over-penetration, it's about the ability to penetrate deeply enough to hit a vital organ. If the gov't was worried about innocent bystanders, they would concentrate more on marksmanship than gun control.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

After the horrific FBI shoot out in Miami the FBI decided they needed something better than .38spl and 9mm. A super caliber that could both defeat humans and barriers, like parked cars or wooden doors. Thus the 10mm S&W 1076 FBI model. But most agents could not handle or qualify with the 10mm, so S&W came up with the .40 'compromise round' and PD's all over the nation ran to companies to trade in their 9mm's. However over time the FBI discovered that the .40 ammo was more expensive, had a tendency to over-penetrate, the round was more difficult to shoot accurately, .40 cal guns needed substantially more gun maintenance, .40 cal guns needed to be replaced more often and their real-world terminal ballistics were barely (and I mean barely) any better than the 9mm. Then the ammo makers started producing hotter 9mm's with better JHP's, something that could not be done with the already maxed out .40S&W. Whamo, PD's all over the country started to trade in their .40's for 9mm's again. We extensively tested duty ammo before returning to 9mm and have been very pleased with the performance of Federal Premium Tactical / Law Enforcement 147 grain +P HST Gold Dot.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

Balls004 said:


> It's not about a round leaving a body because of over-penetration, it's about the ability to penetrate deeply enough to hit a vital organ. If the gov't was worried about innocent bystanders, they would concentrate more on marksmanship than gun control.


The FBI has done extensive testing with the newer 9mm round and found that body penetration was more the enough to kill. Penetration was also enough to go through one body and to partially penetrate another. The difference is that the 45 and the 40 has a much higher likely hood of killing a person standing behind the primary target.

As far as marksmanship is concern, in an emergency situation with some one shooting at you, that you would return fire in a efficient manner. What the FBI did find was that, the 9mm round was more accurate and controllable in an emergency.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

I went through a force on force qualifier once where we had to run a simmunitions shooting course where electronically controlled paintball guns would shoot back at us. Many guys who who could shoot perfect scores on a normal qualifier did poorly and some guys who just did just okay on a normal qualifier did very well. As they say 'it's a very different thing when the targets shoot back'. This is why I say training is more than just putting holes in paper.


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## SheepdogPRS (Oct 8, 2017)

The reason that LEO are scoring better with the 9mm is because it has less recoil than the 40, 10mm or 45. I can tell from the statistics that these folks are worried about over penetration hitting a by-stander. The record shows that they hit what/who they are aiming at less than 3 out of ten rounds. If they practiced as often as the folks I know they would be better able to hit what they aim at. A friend of mine is married to a gal that can't be a full 5 feet tall and weighs about 80 pounds. She shoots a 45 commander style 45 and shoots it very well,She has taken a few local first place titles home. She shoots often - not once every 6 months. She built up control over the recoil over time just like I did with my 357. Most LEO don't like the gun they have to carry and only shoot it to qualify. That is why their hit ratio is so low.

So, give them a wimpy gun and coach them through their qualifications and let it go at that. The same bullet/load technology that is used with the 9mm is used on all center-fire calibers from 22 to 50. All you have to do is compare the velocities and bullet weights to realize that th 9mm +P is between a 38 special +P and a 40 S&W. The ammo is cheaper and recoils less but it is a wimpy round.


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## terri9630 (Jun 2, 2016)

SheepdogPRS said:


> The reason that LEO are scoring better with the 9mm is because it has less recoil than the 40, 10mm or 45. I can tell from the statistics that these folks are worried about over penetration hitting a by-stander. The record shows that they hit what/who they are aiming at less than 3 out of ten rounds. If they practiced as often as the folks I know they would be better able to hit what they aim at. A friend of mine is married to a gal that can't be a full 5 feet tall and weighs about 80 pounds. She shoots a 45 commander style 45 and shoots it very well,She has taken a few local first place titles home. She shoots often - not once every 6 months. She built up control over the recoil over time just like I did with my 357. Most LEO don't like the gun they have to carry and only shoot it to qualify. That is why their hit ratio is so low.
> 
> So, give them a wimpy gun and coach them through their qualifications and let it go at that. The same bullet/load technology that is used with the 9mm is used on all center-fire calibers from 22 to 50. All you have to do is compare the velocities and bullet weights to realize that th 9mm +P is between a 38 special +P and a 40 S&W. The ammo is cheaper and recoils less but it is a wimpy round.


Most of the guys at my hubby's dpt don't want to go down to a 9, they like the 40. They also qual every 3 months, not 6. I personally shoot with a group of LEO's and their wives every week.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

That is a combination of facts and a lot of conjecture. In reality those averages do not tell the real story, especially when large departments like NYPD, LAPD and others provide very little training and range time. Yet they skew the numbers horribly because of their size and frequency of discharging arms. NYPD by the way just this year, 2017, retired the last of the wheel guns they issue out. So their numbers should always be removed from stats, which would greatly increase the hit to miss ratio. Liberal cities and liberal states do not understand the need for firearms training and practice, especially when it takes money away from social causes. Non-East or West coastal PD's tend to have much higher standards for firearms training not to mention officers who grew up shooting rather than not seeing a gun before becoming a cop.

As far as selection goes, well over 90% of law enforcement agencies choose a firearm and ammunition based solely on cost. Penetration, performance, etc. are rarely a consideration. While some Chiefs or Sheriffs will ask for input from their firearms instructions staff, it almost always comes down to cost. The vast majority of cops I know are happy with whatever gun they are issued or they don't care either way.


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## SheepdogPRS (Oct 8, 2017)

When I turned 21 I joined the nearest range. It was the police range in Seattle. I was a member until I moved away in 2012. Of all the cops I saw shoot at the range I could easily count on one hand the number of cops who could hit a 6 inch bullseye at 25 yards. Frank was an exceptional shooter who also competed. I saw him at the range more than weekly and he was always practicing with his 38. He got me involved in the Hunter's Pistol Silhouette matches. Every thousand rounds he would take his pistol in and have it tuned to keep his scores up. After the department went to semi-autos he would practice with both but more with his revolver. There are cops who take pride in their ability to use a gun. It just was a very low number in my experience.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Like I said, East & West coast very different than the rest of the country. Lots of cops, very few shooters. The exact opposite here in the middle. I had over 75 officers come through the state police academy when I was a firearms instructor there before I came across one who did not already know their way around gun. At IALEFI conferences the coastal cops tell me they will get 25 who never touched a gun for everyone who has, barring those with prior military service who never touched a gun before boot or basic.


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## SheepdogPRS (Oct 8, 2017)

I would agree that my experience is limited and I tend to be an accuracy snob. I hope that you are right. The county and city cops here don't shoot at public ranges but the few I have gotten to know seem to have some experience and tend to be comfortable around guns. (in small town, hicksville, SE Washington)


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## marlas1too (Feb 28, 2010)

as far as range time I have shot 20,000 plus rounds both 45 and 38/357 and my son is getting there too plus he likes his 44 mag revolver too so the ability to hit what I'm shooting at is very good and I can carry conceal too BUT I still like my 12 gage double barrel too for real up close and personal


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## Balls004 (Feb 28, 2015)

I wonder why the guys who I work with, who are all Tier level guys with lots of two way range experience, and have the choice of whatever we choose to carry for both work and personal use, most have wimpy 9mm's instead of a man gun? It's not about the bullet size, it's about the placement of that bullet. Just sayin'...


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## marlas1too (Feb 28, 2010)

balls004 I'm 69 years old and frail but can still hold a full size pistol---must be all that range time with full loads


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

.


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## ssonb (Oct 24, 2017)

I have noticed that back in the so called "wild west days" a lot of people liked and preferred the .36 cal pistols, the two most famous are Wild Bill Hickok and Buffalo Bill Cody. both were involved in gunfights and battles and never complained about being "under gunned". The Confederacy even produced the Spiller and Burr copy of the Navy pistol in .36.


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## cnsper (Sep 20, 2012)

Sentry18 said:


> As my Dad used to tell me, putting multiple bullets into one organ doesn't kill a man as fast as putting multiple bullets into several organs.


Two bullets, same hole = wasted trauma


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## marlas1too (Feb 28, 2010)

one round in the head works for me as that’s what I have always shot at on target


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Thursday is the day! But to read how it turns out you will have to go to my personal not-for-profit blog. Which of course in no way competes with this forum and does not violate any terms of service. My blog can be accessed here: https://sentry18.wordpress.com/

Admin has said there is nothing wrong with linking to blogs and other resources, so please stop by and check it out. I will be updating it after Thursday when we find out how my Sig P250 does against my opponents CZ Shadow. Wish me luck!


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## Balls004 (Feb 28, 2015)

Good luck Bud, I've got faith in you!


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Balls004 said:


> Good luck Bud, I've got faith in you!


Thanks!

Yeah I decided to move it to my blog versus having to post about it several different places. That way everyone can follow along at one place. Now I just have to do a better job figuring out how to have a blog.


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

Sentry18 said:


> I went through a force on force qualifier once where we had to run a simmunitions shooting course where electronically controlled paintball guns would shoot back at us. Many guys who who could shoot perfect scores on a normal qualifier did poorly and some guys who just did just okay on a normal qualifier did very well. As they say 'it's a very different thing when the targets shoot back'. This is why I say training is more than just putting holes in paper.


Where did you take that?
Am always looking for good training opportunities


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## Robert Heggestad (Feb 5, 2018)

Sentry18 said:


> The gun to gun comparison is definitely part of this, but shutting down his constant 'Cliff Clavin' like expertise in all things gun related is a bigger part. He is the kind of guy who will shoot a slow fire 8" group at 15 yards but see you put one round out during rapid fire and come over to tell you what you are doing wrong and coach you. There are people who will call the range and ask who the range officers is before they come, just to avoid him. I am pretty confident that I could beat him with a j-frame snubby but I am still going to practice a bit and make sure. I should have made the terms "winner gets the other guys gun". As I am sure he will be dropping well over $500 (he is not poor).


I have spent many years experimenting with inexpensive hand guns. The High Point 45cal is by far the best home security hand gun I have fired. The High Point 9mm jams excessively. The 45cal will continue to function well in rapid fire as well as target shoot speed. I do have more expensive hand guns but the High Point 45 is reliable and you can put 8 of theses distributed around your home for around a $1000.00.. My daughters and wife are comfortable shooting this handgun because it is light. My Colt and Springfield 45cal are significantly heavier. I am a prior USMC marksmanship instructor and am privy to the M1911A1.


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## Robert Heggestad (Feb 5, 2018)

I have spent many years experimenting with inexpensive hand guns. The High Point 45cal is by far the best home security hand gun I have fired. The High Point 9mm jams excessively. The 45cal will continue to function well in rapid fire as well as target shoot speed. I do have more expensive hand guns but the High Point 45 is reliable and you can put 8 of theses distributed around your home for around a $1000.00.. My daughters and wife are comfortable shooting this handgun because it is light. My Colt and Springfield 45cal are significantly heavier. I am a prior USMC marksmanship instructor and am privy to the M1911A1.

R


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## Robert Heggestad (Feb 5, 2018)

I have spent many years experimenting with inexpensive hand guns. The High Point 45cal is by far the best home security hand gun I have fired. The High Point 9mm jams excessively. The 45cal will continue to function well in rapid fire as well as target shoot speed. I do have more expensive hand guns but the High Point 45 is reliable and you can put 8 of theses distributed around your home for around a $1000.00.. My daughters and wife are comfortable shooting this handgun because it is light. My Colt and Springfield 45cal are significantly heavier. I am a prior USMC marksmanship instructor and am privy to the M1911A1.


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## Robert Heggestad (Feb 5, 2018)

I am also quite in love with the 25-06. Great at 400yrds holding a 2in group. Ar15 1in group at 800yrds. OOrrahhh!


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## Ezmerelda (Oct 17, 2010)

Sentry18 said:


> He could not have disagreed more and in his opinion you had to exceed $500 to get something worth a damn. I told him I would take that challenge. We then discussed terms.


Don't keep us in suspense, what happened?


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## redwood90 (Sep 4, 2014)

I was in a shooting range the other day and heard the same BS about the lower priced guns. One gentleman was praising the Kimber and I explained that I had a few 45's and he asked me what was the "best". one. I asked him to shoot a round and went to the truck and brought back a Hi Point 45-$200 pistol. I also had an Ed Brown $3,000 pistol and shot about 3 to one that he did with the Hi Point. ITS NOT THE GUN!!! Its the person pulling the trigger. I didn't tell him that I shoot about 500 rounds a week at my place and reload so I can!


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## Cabowabo (Nov 6, 2012)

When you buy a more expensive weapon, what does the extra money spent buy you, and what doesn't it buy you? As well as what are your goals?
I hate hearing Brand X is just as good as Brand Y. Its not, because if you are saying its just as good as then why didn't you buy Brand Y. I hear this crap with 1911's all the time (and I hate the 1911), my $500 Pilipino(sp?) pot metal 1911 is just as good as your Dan Wesson. Its not, Fact. Quality Control, and Quality Assurance cost money. Because in order to put QC/QA on your parts you have to have someone looking individually at each part, and then rejecting parts that don't meet a preset standard. Then you need someone piecing it together with some pride in their work, and is doing it right. 

If you want a pistol that you're never gonna carry, it might pull bedside duty, and you're going to put 100 rounds a year through it, that $500 pot metal pistol might work just fine. You're probably never going to put enough rounds through it to really test it. However if it is a serious use pistol, its something that is going to be rode hard and put away wet, then what is your life worth?

For me personally I carry a $2K Glock 19. It started life as a G19 Gen 4, I had ATEi mill out for an RMR, I had them install the RMR, I changed barrels, triggers, extended the mag well, and added a Surefire Flashlight. It is my everyday carry, I will be carrying it to school in the fall on me. Why? Because legally I can, and my school is not in the best part of town. Its set up to fight with IF I HAVE TO. 

For most things I agree its the Indian not the Arrow, and a great shooter can make do with subpar guns/gear. But is depending on a cheaper made gun worth your life? Do you know its going to continuously work? Sentry I hope you wipe the floor with him, but if you do it will because of you being a great shot. And honestly you need to switch pistols half way through and really see Indian Vs. Arrow in this competition.


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## capt. (Dec 15, 2017)

SORRY I THOUGHT IT WAS ABOUT TYPE QALITY NOT JUST THE 9 MM> I tried to delete don't know how, disregard all that follows.
In 19-80-81? forgot what year, I won the Army + Air Guard pistol comp at fort custer mi. I had a rack 45 with all issue parts Remington slide , singer frame (rattled when shook), and a hi standard, issue mil 22, both on the day of the shoot. It was a rainy day and I scored in the hi 900s out of 1000 pts can't recal xs . I was packing up to leave when they called my name, surprised me. The bad weaher was in my favor and boy did it tick off a lot of people , this no name SSG at the time, beat out the pistol teams of the state. My team did not win but I got the individual High score and with other shoots DOD gave me an excellence in competition award which I wore for many years and everyone would ask, what is that. It was a surprise for me, foul weather shooter, always mediocre , just shot the same no matter what. Used to take first place with a 4 inch S&W 19 that I carried everyday when the others (cops) used custom 6 inchers with all the works, Used to really po them.
Now I can't see the sights and hearing is GOA. O well life goes on till it doesn't.


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## frankd4 (Oct 22, 2010)

I love Glocks, the only thing I do is change the sights and polish the internals.
I go to alot of Pawn shops and pick up glocks on the cheap. But my first love are 1911's.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

1 Do you feel comfortable with your handgun ?
2 Is it a 38 special or greater caliber ?
3 can you draw and fire @ a 21 foot range and put two rounds center mass in a rapid fire scenario ?
4 Can you do so with someone striking you in the back of the head with a rolled up newspaper ?
If the answer to these four questions is yes, you have an acceptable weapon.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Even the sentry18 wordpress blog isn't updated


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