# Homemade defences when TSHTF



## lexsurivor (Jul 5, 2010)

Ok lets not get into the stay low or Intimidate arrgument. But hypothetically lets say a group of rowdy city folk or gang members (20-40 people) for whatever reason are going to raid your house,BOL, ect... What homemade defences would you use yo defend your location.(using stuff you currently have) Think of it as a creativity exercise.

Ill start. 
First I would take my deck apart for the wood. Board up windows and reinforce doors. Then I would drill screws throught the boards so they are facing outwards so if someone does break the glass they get poked. Then I would put metal wire or any cord ouside of the glass in a grid to prevent molitolv cockails from getting inside. Then I would get garbage bags and pillow cases and fill them up with dirt and put them against the front wall and windows. NExt I would String barb wire around the perimeter of the house with it being 1 ft off the ground using stakes to hold it up. (the overgrown grass would help hide it). And those are just a few of my ideas.


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## power (May 7, 2011)

lexsurivor said:


> Ok lets not get into the stay low or Intimidate arrgument. But hypothetically lets say a group of rowdy city folk or gang members (20-40 people) for whatever reason are going to raid your house,BOL, ect... What homemade defences would you use yo defend your location.(using stuff you currently have) Think of it as a creativity exercise.
> 
> Ill start.
> First I would take my deck apart for the wood. Board up windows and reinforce doors. Then I would drill screws throught the boards so they are facing outwards so if someone does break the glass they get poked. Then I would put metal wire or any cord ouside of the glass in a grid to prevent molitolv cockails from getting inside. Then I would get garbage bags and pillow cases and fill them up with dirt and put them against the front wall and windows. NExt I would String barb wire around the perimeter of the house with it being 1 ft off the ground using stakes to hold it up. (the overgrown grass would help hide it). And those are just a few of my ideas.


You sure must be planning on having plenty of warning. I have never heard of rowdy city folk or gang members giving a warning or giving a person time to do much of anything. Seems like they might not be a very successful gang. It takes time to do all you would plan on doing. Before you even got half of the jobs finished they would already have attacked or went somewhere else.

If I was given that amount of time I would begin an offensive against them. Nothing like giving them something to think about during their long wait. Any gang that would give warning and wait until you finished your work would not be that much problem. The leadership is lacking on smarts.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

If you had been hit previously or knew someone that was hit previously that might give you enough warning to set up the defences you describe. I would say however that several (possibly even one) people with 22's could fend off a place from a distance for quite a while. You would want portholes to shoot from and be able to defend in all directions (more people on your side the better). Although a 22 bullet might not have the takedown power it can and will kill... at the very least it will sting! And likely they wouldnt mess with you after the first few shots -- nobody likes the idea of being shot. 22s are cheap defence.

I would recommend the Ruger 10/22 with several extra clips... maybe even some of the hi-cap ones.


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## power (May 7, 2011)

TheAnt said:


> If you had been hit previously or knew someone that was hit previously that might give you enough warning to set up the defences you describe. I would say however that several (possibly even one) people with 22's could fend off a place from a distance for quite a while. You would want portholes to shoot from and be able to defend in all directions (more people on your side the better). Although a 22 bullet might not have the takedown power it can and will kill... at the very least it will sting! And likely they wouldnt mess with you after the first few shots -- nobody likes the idea of being shot. 22s are cheap defence.
> 
> I would recommend the Ruger 10/22 with several extra clips... maybe even some of the hi-cap ones.


Have you tried one of those reel type things that you can attach to the trigger of a 22? You can sure go through a lot of ammo in a short time.
Fun sometimes but not very practical.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

power said:


> Have you tried one of those reel type things that you can attach to the trigger of a 22? You can sure go through a lot of ammo in a short time.
> Fun sometimes but not very practical.


Nope, never have. But I believe my 22 is my favorite gun to shoot!


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## lexsurivor (Jul 5, 2010)

The purpose of the thread is to just come up with some ideas for defence. Lets just say for whatever the reason we know they are coming. What would you do with the materials around you do to help set up defences (excluding guns)


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## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

lex - a couple thoughts on your setup.

After removing the deck wood and putting the screws through it, put several of the boards back on the deck, under the windows and doors. They'll be walking on nails if they attempt to get too close to an entry point.

Barbed wire is cheap. I'd run several strands... 

I'd also consider:
Screwing doors and windows shut. A deadbolt is strong but a little extra wouldn't hurt.

On your points of probable entry, tie 2 glass containers together. Fill one with bleach, the other with ammonia. Rig it so the bottles fall and break when the entry point is breached. Obviously, make sure you're not near it... A derivation of this is to do the same outside but make it where you can control if/when they fall and mix. (something like fishing line would work. Just tie it to the bottles and pull so they fall/break when you want them to).

Time permitting, create distractions. Generate things that move and get the attackers attention. Moving objects or noise are best.

If you have a septic system, I'd pump it all on the ground near potential entry paths. Would you walk in it??? Me neither. A full perimeter would be optimum.

Obviously, pile furniture and such against all potential entry points.


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## lexsurivor (Jul 5, 2010)

With the bleach and ammonia idea how big of a radius should you avoid.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

My house is in a neighborhood that has undergone lots of gentrification over the last 20 years. When I bought my house 20 years ago, I heard gun shots (gangs) every night for the first year. We used to have lots of grafitti around. Easy money changed that. There are many big houses in the neighborhood as it was a very nice neighborhood at one time, and it has become much better again.

There is a garage in the neighborhood that is not associated with a house. It appears to have been built for storing cars, a garage for car repair, or something. It is large enough to store about a dozen cars. In the changes of the neighborhood, someone bought the garage ($5,000-a steal), and cleaned it out. He then proceeded to weld all kinds of barbed wire and sharp objects on the heavy duty metal screening on the windows. It is not really screening, but a metal mesh that is heavy and would require lots of work to get through. He has greatly reinforced the windows and doors. I will go take pictures and add them later so you can see what I mean.

I think that if you think you want to reinforce your home, begin now. Look for inobtrusive ways to shore up your home--bars (attractive ones), reinforce your doorways and windows, etc. Where possible, replace glass with plexiglass, the thicker the better. A friend of mine had a garage window that was often broken by children playing close to it. He finally replaced it with plexiglass and it will be much more secure now. Inner city schools do this also.

I have been thinking that since the alley goes by one side of my house, I need to prepare those windows first. I have considered corrugated metal, precut to fit, with corrugated wood strips to help tighten up the edges. I wonder if corrugated plastic would be secure? That way you could have light and security.

Corrugate metal might help to secure other aspects of our homes. I also think about what would stop a bullet? Anyone know?

My windows had bars on them at one time, but they came off fairly easily during painting and window cleaning. I still have some of them. I need to look at how to better secure them to the window.

Another thought that I have had is to plant some big, wicked thorny bushes at the base of the windows. The challenge for setting it up to protect us from others means that we have to be careful also. It would be hard to board up a window stepping on a climbing rose bush, or cactus.

I appreciate this thread and look forward to some real input from other members.


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## lexsurivor (Jul 5, 2010)

I like the idea about the thorny bushes. Black or raspberrys would be nice that way you could eat them too. Also You could dig a ditch around your perimeter (big enough so you cant jump across) and have thorny plants in the ditch. At the very least it will slow them down.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

I think this is more than anyone family or individual could do, but I have thought about building a tunnel around the perimeter of a property, or around parts of a property. You could move around unseen in them, use them for storage, and even have some listening posts where you could see what is going on without others knowing you are there. You could store preps there. You could have hidden storage in places in the tunnel also. One way to disguise them would be to have them beside a fence with flower boxes or something like that.

I think having tunnels connecting buildings would be good also. Many colleges have tunnels, they were used during the Underground Railroad and in other times in history.

Lots of work and resources, but could be an incredible form of defense.


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

*Being prepared*

*Lex your thinking lad!! as for the comment about "advanced warnings" being in a SHTF event that alone is all the warning you should need..of course these ideas should be set up long before they are needed

The pungi stakes were a big eye opener in Nam , yet they were used in the Philippines during ww2 against the Japs... the guerrilla fighters would place them in the deep foliage near trails and when they opened fire the Japs would dive off the trail and...well think about it!! lol...hell I'd bet they were in use hundreds of years ago... or even thousands...

I know having a heavy steel gate with re-bar spikes pointed outward can sure spike a vehicle radiator.. it may not stop it but will make it unusable in the short term.. 
Sharpened re-bar spikes around your retreat pointing outward and sunk into the ground will stop vehicles and be hard on foot attackers IF it's in deep grass...

There are as many useful tools as ideas!! the best tool is the imagination ...use it!!

Anybody who has hunted with black powder weapons will already have thought of ways to use BP.. homemade claymores.. .. hell even a cannon made from modern steel pipe and loaded with nuts and bolts is not beyond the skills of most anybody...THINK!... go into a hardware store, look at the different pipes and plugs and springs and wires... use your imagination ! OH!! and lots of duct tape!! the world is held together with DucK tape!! lol...

AND..for the moment..you can buy BP over the counter!! no tracks..no records... but hurry!! "THEY" read this stuff too!!.. they've even stopped the sale of road flares or so I've been told.. why do they fear us/ must be they know something we don't!!

Lex is right... think... do...prepare ... be ready to repel the borders!! coz folks...they are coming.. if not today then some day..but coming they are... *


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## lexsurivor (Jul 5, 2010)

I made a flash powder powered cannon type thing that shot blowgun darts out. It was made from copper pipe with a cap and a hole drilled for a fuse. It worked pretty well.
Also I think pneumatic air cannons have big potential. My first pottato cannon was pumped up with a bike pump and fired with a ball valve. It would shoot a tennis ball with a foam sabot 100 yards.(and it even had a leak) I made it for under $50. Im making a new one that will hold 6 times the air with ball valves to each air chamber so I can controll the power of each shot or have multiple shots without repumping. It will be fired by a sprinkler valve that I saudered to a toggle switch and 9v battery. It would be able to shoot anything that will fit in the 3inch pvc. I could launch molitolvs or ammonia and chlorine. Also there have been air powered pvc annons shooting a railroad spike +2 miles.


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## efbjr (Oct 20, 2008)

*Should avoid poison gas...*



bczoom said:


> On your points of probable entry, tie 2 glass containers together. Fill one with bleach, the other with ammonia. Rig it so the bottles fall and break when the entry point is breached. Obviously, make sure you're not near it... A derivation of this is to do the same outside but make it where you can control if/when they fall and mix. (something like fishing line would work. Just tie it to the bottles and pull so they fall/break when you want them to).


When the bleach and ammonia mix, it would generate chlorine gas...very bad news for anyone who breathes it in...and you may get a lethal dose too! 

I worked in the burglar alarm industry and some of the safes we monitored had breakable vials of pure ammonia mounted inside near the points where a burglar would try to open the safe with a sledgehammer, etc. When the vial breaks, the ammonia fumes fills the safe, and leaks out through the edge of the door causing immediate, but not usually fatal distress to the criminal  who usually vacates the premises at this point. :surrender: The ammonia can easily be vented and dissipated by the building ventilation system.

Stick to the ammonia...they won't stick around if they a good dose in the face.


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## lexsurivor (Jul 5, 2010)

How big would the fume cloud be for 10fl oz of bleach and 10 fl oz of ammonia when they mixed.


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## beanpicker (May 25, 2011)

I'm glade to see not only me sets around an day dreams of things that one day might come in handy to of thought out. Like how about a few cans of wasp spray , course one has to take in account young children in the house , but some one trying to kick the door in or after breaking a window , give them a shot of wasp spray in the face.. Heck that stuff can shoot 25 ft. Better yet keep a can in the up stairs window, start spraying an yell down to the ememy .. they look up to a face full. I say this because we have a upstairs window right over our patio door an deck.


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## lexsurivor (Jul 5, 2010)

I heard its flammable but i couldent get it to catch fire.


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## Immolatus (Feb 20, 2011)

I like the wasp spray idea.

Im not sure screwing your doors shut is such a good idea, what if you need to get out in a hurry (fire!)?

HB, ya may not want to go into your local hardware store buying up a bunch of materiel that may be construed as bo*b makin stuff!

Sharpened stakes. Large, loud, scary lookin dogs.
Spike strips that the fuzz use to disable cars? Could be deployed in a hurry.
When I was a kid, we used to light a newspaper next to a flammable spray can and shoot them with bb guns. Could easily get a 25' jet of flame. Everyone is scared of fire.


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## lexsurivor (Jul 5, 2010)

you can make a nice flamethrower with a pesticide sprayer. Also if you want something that sticks better and burns longer thn regular molitolvs take styrofoam and put it in gassoline and stirr until sticky but pourable its like type of napalm and it can stick to a verticle surface.


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

lexsurivor said:


> you can make a nice flamethrower with a pesticide sprayer. Also if you want something that sticks better and burns longer thn regular molitolvs take styrofoam and put it in gassoline and stirr until sticky but pourable its like type of napalm and it can stick to a verticle surface.


Just so you know ... I once had to take a class about folks like you...


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## lexsurivor (Jul 5, 2010)

How would one do such a thing? Hahaha


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

Immolatus said:


> I like the wasp spray idea.
> 
> Im not sure screwing your doors shut is such a good idea, what if you need to get out in a hurry (fire!)?
> 
> ...


*I'm not much into worrying about what others think and as for buying items in my local hardware store... if they can sell it, I can buy it... our biggest problem in America is becoming afraid of our Government, LEO's, and a whole host of other stuff... now if I were really into building something of " Interest" I'd use several stores and cash.. but if I don't have it I don't need it.. 
Most of you have noticed I'm sure the recent ( last few years) the use of so called SWAT teams for everything from traffic ticket warrants to real problems, and it seems to me that they are getting a bit too heavy on the trigger finger.... IM not so HO I believe that sooner rather then later some SWAT team is going to run into a hornets nest and get their asses handed to them... there are a lot of folks out here who are sick and tired of the way this crap is going and there are lots of them who not only know how to defend themselves but also "want" too...

I think the LEO's need to go back to the days of "To Protect and Serve"... remember when that was on all cop cars? look for it now... good luck.

Sorry, didn't mean to go off...but this shit is getting me down... they know if they kick in a door at night somebody will reach for their family defense gun... which to them is a lic to kill... *


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

HozayBuck said:


> *
> Most of you have noticed I'm sure the recent ( last few years) the use of so called SWAT teams for everything from traffic ticket warrants to real problems, *


LMAO!!!! Hahahaha!

The reason the SWAT guys are getting used more is that the brass finally realized that they are paying these guys a lot of money to sit around and lift weights, go to the range, go run, and generally sit around and do nothing while they wait on alert in case something happens.... so they put them to work. It's good for them, it keeps their head in the game and grounds them a bit. No master plan at work there, I assure you.


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

*Andi said:


> Just so you know ... I once had to take a class about folks like you...


I was thinking EXACTLY the same thing! lol


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

I think that for a lot of these home defense ideas, we should look back to the medieval period and before.

In line with the idea of the wasp spray; many medievalcastle and fortifications have/had what were called "murder holes" in the floor of the second level, above entryways and along the walls. These were channels or holes worked into the stone or trap-doors in wooden structures through which nasty materiels could be poured on attackers. Boiling oil was used most often, but using a similar idea, one could make firing ports in doors, walls, or floors to direct your fluid of choice at your attackers. 

I really advise everyone to look in to ancient fortifications to rediscover the wisdom of the ancients. They had to be creative, too, before gunpowder. Needless to say, however, and in line with previous comments, these sorts of ideas would need to be in place well before attackers were on the horizon.

I plan to build a small stone tower on whatever piece of property which I wind up buying. I will use it as a fall-back position and sub-storage of supplies, should things get dicey.


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## Immolatus (Feb 20, 2011)

And my girl laughs whenever we look at a piece of property or a house, and my first comments are about how defensible it is.

Good idea Turtle, older techniques should be simpler, and simpler is better.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

lexsurivor said:


> Ok lets not get into the stay low or Intimidate arrgument. But hypothetically lets say a group of rowdy city folk or gang members (20-40 people) for whatever reason are going to raid your house,BOL, ect... What homemade defences would you use yo defend your location.(using stuff you currently have) Think of it as a creativity exercise.
> 
> Ill start.
> First I would take my deck apart for the wood. Board up windows and reinforce doors. Then I would drill screws throught the boards so they are facing outwards so if someone does break the glass they get poked. Then I would put metal wire or any cord ouside of the glass in a grid to prevent molitolv cockails from getting inside. Then I would get garbage bags and pillow cases and fill them up with dirt and put them against the front wall and windows. NExt I would String barb wire around the perimeter of the house with it being 1 ft off the ground using stakes to hold it up. (the overgrown grass would help hide it). And those are just a few of my ideas.


4 words:
Poor Man's James Bond [email protected]
it can be had as a PDF if you look hard,so can the anarchist cook book.many, many expedient woe spreaders.:sssh:

Or
you could invest in a bunch of single shot shotguns and a hack saw,if you don't know what to do from there,you need to increase your survival library many fold.

But if you want non lethal,boil down a pound of red pepper seed in two cups of denatured alcohol until it looks like red paint,mix with a pint of mineral spirits and keep several hand sprayers lying where you can reach them,one shot in the eyes is enough to make a normal person scream for hours,now if you want to umph it and don't care what happens to the poor misguided slob's eyes, swap the mineral spirits for embalming fluid.it'll eventually wear off but they'll be jello for hours.[ever hear jello scream? neither have I but who cares?]be sure to strain your goodies before you put them in the sprayer,the seeds tend to clog stuff up.


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## lexsurivor (Jul 5, 2010)

Wow this thread has gotten a bunch of posts. Keep it up.


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## Tex (Oct 31, 2008)

Use your neighbors if you have them. You can be each other's eyes outside if you aren't already together. Dogs and donkeys are great early warning systems. If SHTF, most of my family can be armed quickly.


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

Turtle said:


> LMAO!!!! Hahahaha!
> 
> The reason the SWAT guys are getting used more is that the brass finally realized that they are paying these guys a lot of money to sit around and lift weights, go to the range, go run, and generally sit around and do nothing while they wait on alert in case something happens.... so they put them to work. It's good for them, it keeps their head in the game and grounds them a bit. No master plan at work there, I assure you.


*Grounds them? good for them? they are being used in ways that are killing innocent people more then BG's... 
Sorry I don't see the need... put their steroid filled asses out in a patrol car .. that young former Marine murdered in Tuscon AZ is a good case in point...

Sorry ... it's a bone in my throat... *


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

I plan on having extra plywood to board up my windows from the inside. People will only see blinds drawn. I don't want to call attention to myself. I plan on blocking my living room door with cinder blocks. If I put them in right they'd be between the door and the opposite wall. In a SHTF scenario me and my stepson will take turns guarding the place from the inside. There should always be someone awake with a gun.

I'm not as concerned about people attacking our place with fire. They can't take the chance of burning the place down if they want to have our food. Besides, there might be women inside. I think the advantage goes to the people inside.


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## semperscott (Nov 7, 2010)

The best defense is always a layered defense. At each point the attackers are made to pay; the goal being that the cost will be too high before they reach your final defense. 

Do not forget that even in SHTF times that vehicles could be used to crash an entry point. Large concrete planters, iron fences (posts filled with concrete) and other vehicle obstacles can be done now and made to blend in with your normal landscape. Planting blackberry bushes and other thorny shrubs can also 'channel' any attackers into your pre-planned kill zones. Ensure there are no 'blind' spots around your location. Use your knowledge of your immediate area to your advantage!


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## DJgang (Apr 10, 2011)

Wow, I haven't really thought all about this, being out in the country and away from "gangs" .. We just have AKs and lots of ammo stored. 

But eventually, after a few months, you may need to look at other ways of defending your home besides with ammo, now ya got me thinking...good thread.


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## MouldyJoe (Jul 5, 2011)

*Caltrops*

I'm suprised there is no mention of caltrops. Depending on what the bad guys are using for transportation, these little things have been used for thousands of years and being a military engineer, we were instructed on how to build these just a few years ago. Remember the game "jacks" from way back. Thats what they look like. anywhere from 2-3" sharpened sticks for people to 6" for horses and 3' angle iron for cars/trucks. Tall grass to hide them also helps. 
I would also put somebody in another elevated secure location close by for flanking and crossfire. Joe


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

semperscott said:


> The best defense is always a layered defense. At each point the attackers are made to pay; the goal being that the cost will be too high before they reach your final defense.
> 
> Do not forget that even in SHTF times that vehicles could be used to crash an entry point. Large concrete planters, iron fences (posts filled with concrete) and other vehicle obstacles can be done now and made to blend in with your normal landscape. Planting blackberry bushes and other thorny shrubs can also 'channel' any attackers into your pre-planned kill zones. Ensure there are no 'blind' spots around your location. Use your knowledge of your immediate area to your advantage!


I might worry about 'overdoing it'... without knowing what you're protecting so vigorously, others might think that you have even more than you actually do and calculate the risks could possibly be worth it...


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## Jimmy24 (Apr 20, 2011)

Without giving away too much, both my house and the cabin at the retreat have hurricane shutters. The ones on the house are just ¾ ply that are fitted with a cute little kit. The ones at the cabin are rollup metal shutters that once they are down can be locked. They will pretty much stop anything short of a bullet. The door at the cabin is one I made. It has a 1¼ inch solid wood core covered in 3/16 steel. Has 2 sliding bar locks on inside.

I have an 6 ft metal fence all the way around the retreat…..it is wired is all I will say. Has 3 strands of barbed wire a top it.

There are other what ever around the property that would not be healthy for folks to get around. Amazing what you can do with a cast iron frying pan……

Now would it defeat 20-40 gang-types, nope. But it would take it’s share and maybe give me time to put into play other defensive equipment and hopefully put on a good defense of my cabin.

Even though they might win, I would put a hurt on a bunch of them…..a high cost would be paid…..that might cause them to move on….

You come to my house as a friend, I’ll feed ya a fine meal, serve you a fine drink of choice and have a fine visit and give/lend you whatever I have.

You come to my place with trouble on your mind, you will get as much as you can handle. Ole saying” you might walk up, but you will limp away…”

Jimmy


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## Jimmy24 (Apr 20, 2011)

Over the last 25-30 years I've lost close to $5 grand worth of lawnmowers, outboard motors, tools to critains. 

I'm over it....

Jimmy


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## silversam (Apr 25, 2010)

*Old School*

The house I grew up in is located in a urban area in Kansas City. The house dated back to the mid 1800s. Their is a carriage house behind it. We found a tunnel that went from the front house to the back of the house. After doing some research on the property we found that in the 30s it was a gambling house and had a escape route to the back house in case they got busted.

We also found a primitive communication device where you could talk to people in the back house via a pipe. Kinda like the old devices you see in black and white 1940s movies used in subs.

Steel doors with steel frames. Brick and stone facades. All natural barriers.

My point is home defense is not uncommon. And as said before if you look at history you can find multiple ways people have used to defend their homes.

A lot of prairie homes have defensive shutters and escape tunnels. Same as old military forts.

The key is to make your defense system blend in as to not give away what you are doing. If you are setting up a defensive perimeter that looks like you have something to hide or protect. Then it looks like it. Don't paint yourself as a target. Try not to draw attention to what you are doing. Not only will you draw attention from would be bad guys. But LEO will also get curious. Bad guys do this to and tend to make cops wonder. Check out any video of a inner city drug house being busted. They almost always have steel doors.

In the event of a large crowd of unruly looters. Check out the videos of the aftermath of the Rodney King verdict in Ca. The Koreans protected their shops using firearms. And did not hesitate in using them. They had people planted on roof tops using their firearms. They didnt wait for the cops. If they did they would have been turned into victims. Instead they became proactive citizens using their rights to bear arms.

Just a FYI on this subject. You have to know that what you post in a open forum can be read by anyone. And I will guarantee you that this and all forums are watched by LEO and Homeland Security for suspicious activity.

Its easy to forget while in the spirit of a topic or being involved in a conversation on line that what you type is permanently out their in cyber space.


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

silversam said:


> Just a FYI on this subject. You have to know that what you post in a open forum can be read by anyone. And I will guarantee you that this and all forums are watched by LEO and Homeland Security for suspicious activity.
> 
> Its easy to forget while in the spirit of a topic or being involved in a conversation on line that what you type is permanently out their in cyber space.


As a federal LEO and having trained with DHS, I can tell you that there is probably nobody "watching" this site unless a person on it is under investigation for something else already. We just don't have the manpower or resources to waste on someone reading websites all day. And hopefully, there is no one on this site like that!

You do bring up a good point, however: it may be better to look to the colonial and frontier forts for inspiration. I have lots of photos of Fort King George in Darien, GA, which is an excellent reconstruction of an early colonial wood fort. I could share those if anyone would care to see them.


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## horseman09 (Mar 2, 2010)

Turtle, I've enjoyed and learned from your posts (iit's fun when we disagree from time to time, too). 

Having said that -- no offense intended here -- but I can't help thinking agencies like the NSA and a dozen other Federal agencies you and I never even heard of are using their ELINT capabilities to capture key words flying through cyberspace from *ALL* sources. Very little manpower is needed to monitor targeted communications and store it.


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## lexsurivor (Jul 5, 2010)

I heard something about a program the govt has that scans for keywords in phone calls internet posts ect. from almost all u.s citizens. Not sure if its true but I wouldent put it past them and they do have the money for it. Well not the money per say since were in debt several trillion dollars. But us being in debt does give them the ability to spend several billion building the server for a program like that and nobody noticing. Because our debt is increasing so fast that nobody will notice an extra billion spent every week.

Any ways back to the topic. 
I was thinking to stop vehicles you could have a perimeter around your house where its a 1 foot wide and deep trench dug around the house with 3 foot rebarb that has been sharpened stuck in the cement facing outward at a 45 degree angle.
Does any one know how well this would work?


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

*We are probably all being spied on*

I recently had lunch with an old friend who has friends with extended connections with CIA, and other intelligence people. Remember the surveillance of Americans in the Bush administration? For all of you Bush lovers, yes, we are *all* under surveillance. It seems that certain things posted in the subject area of emails gets attention. Lots of stuff about sex and political stuff tends to get attention. One sign is that email from the same person via the same server is received out of sequence. You receive yesterday's email from dad and then last weeks email from dad shows up later.

Be a loud mouth, always spouting your opinion and making government people uncomfortable. Your email is likely being closely watched. 
Your home phone may be tapped. That has been going on also.
Information gathering has been going on for quite awhile for all Americans. They are not going to wait until the last minute. The lists are already made and being made.

I know some young adults who live together in a house together, 6 or more, 
the people who live there changing, a constant ebb and flow, depending on needs, attitudes, etc. The thing about this house is thinking for yourself, challenging the status quo. They actually do some good things socially--feeding homeless and more. They had a group of FBI show up one day a few years ago, to get information on who lived there, to intimidate, to get them to stop being so vocal. It actually scared some of them pretty good. They have decided to quiet down. Some people didn't want to be in the crosshairs. But a few of them still live there. But they are all quieter. An article about them and this incident was in a local free independent paper after the incident.

I keep saying to keep it under the radar. Yes, keep it under the radar. Don't go buy 25 # of rice in the grocery store in smaller bags at one time. If they are having a sale, buy a couple and go back a few times. Don't go buy a whole bunch of preps at one time. Buy a few here and there. Blend in with the rest. Don't look like a prepper in public. Don't brag about your preps. Don't preach about prepping. Keep it on the downlow! Shhhhhhhhhhhh!

I know this isn't a defense for your home or property, but it is a form of defense.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

A simple tool that you might wish to look into is a crop-sprayer that is normally mounted on an ATV to distribute weed-killer and similar pesticides. The crop sprayer tank can be filled with all kinds of products, including flamable material (ie: diesel fuel or kerosene) and it can be sprayed out at a safe distance from your home and lit-up as required.

An alternate to that would be a "super soaker" filled with flamable liquid and used like a flame thrower. Just a side-note, the fluid could possibly get onto your skin or clothing and set you on fire as well. The super soaker would be a "one-use-only" deal as many flamable liquids will eat the plastic of the super soaker rendering it useless fairly quickly.


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

lexsurivor said:


> I heard something about a program the govt has that scans for keywords in phone calls internet posts ect. from almost all u.s citizens. Not sure if its true but I wouldent put it past them and they do have the money for it. Well not the money per say since were in debt several trillion dollars. But us being in debt does give them the ability to spend several billion building the server for a program like that and nobody noticing. Because our debt is increasing so fast that nobody will notice an extra billion spent every week.
> 
> Any ways back to the topic.
> I was thinking to stop vehicles you could have a perimeter around your house where its a 1 foot wide and deep trench dug around the house with 3 foot rebarb that has been sharpened stuck in the cement facing outward at a 45 degree angle.
> Does any one know how well this would work?


Yes, the government does have a system like that, and no, it is not used on U.S. persons unless they are actively the subject of a terror investigation.

The idea you have about using rebar (angle iron would probably be better, as it wouldn't bend as much) would definitely work; it is essentially what was used around early "motte and bailey"- style castles.

Once again, look to the wisdom of the ancients for ideas.


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## GreyWolfAlpha (Aug 21, 2011)

A good place to start may be the old Field Fortification manual. Just try a search on Google.


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

*Uh ....Turtle*



Turtle said:


> Yes, the government does have a system like that, and no, it is not used on U.S. persons unless they are actively the subject of a terror investigation.
> 
> The idea you have about using rebar (angle iron would probably be better, as it wouldn't bend as much) would definitely work; it is essentially what was used around early "motte and bailey"- style castles.
> 
> Once again, look to the wisdom of the ancients for ideas.


*IF you are a working FedLEO then you are spreading false information... YES the Gov has the electronic capability to scan the cyber world for key words ...and they "DO" use in right here in the good ol US of A... they do it in my area for a fact..I know they do...been there .. know some of the folks working there.. now do I care? nope..not a bit..I use words like GUNS !! DRUGS !! BOMBS..!! all the time just for the hell of it.. I talk about guns on my cell phone all the time... I don't care.. but to say the FEDS don't have the manpower is false..

Also I know of several cases generated from that same location that involved persons arrested for child Porn on line.. so somebody is scanning the net looking for these folks...do I care? nope.. I'm not doing it and I think those who are should be caught and jailed..

Right or wrong the US Government is in the business of spying on the people...

I'm only bringing this up because it's the truth and everybody should know it.. it's also true the Gov has watchdogs who scan sites like this one.. In my opinion it's good that the Gov knows we are aware of them and that we are watching them back...

Today's Government is not our friend, it's no longer the Government OF the people , it's become something else...*


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

HozayBuck said:


> *IF you are a working FedLEO then you are spreading false information... YES the Gov has the electronic capability to scan the cyber world for key words ...and they "DO" use in right here in the good ol US of A... they do it in my area for a fact..I know they do...been there .. know some of the folks working there.. now do I care? nope..not a bit..I use words like GUNS !! DRUGS !! BOMBS..!! all the time just for the hell of it.. I talk about guns on my cell phone all the time... I don't care.. but to say the FEDS don't have the manpower is false..
> 
> Also I know of several cases generated from that same location that involved persons arrested for child Porn on line.. so somebody is scanning the net looking for these folks...do I care? nope.. I'm not doing it and I think those who are should be caught and jailed..
> 
> ...


Read Executive Order 12333; it outlines exactly what the intelligence community can and cannot do. In fact, it offers a lot protections for the American people.

Perhaps I should say this: the intelligence community is not spying on Americans, unless they are under investigation for a felony relating to terrorism. The I.C. possesses the VAST majority of the country's surveillance abilities. Now, the Bureau handles domestic terrorism, and to my knowledge, does no have the capabilities of the program described earlier. They may have a small unit that sifts through websites, but i highly doubt they would be interested in this site. They have bigger fish to fry, and not enough resources to accomlish the mission as it stands, let alone trying to take on more work regarding imagined threats from people with too many canned goods. In any case, their data center is in West Virginia, not Texas. Out of curiousity, which agency do you think is handling this? No offense, but unless you have a TS/SCI clearance, you wouldn't be allowed anywhere near a site like that. There may be a local field office that is targeting child porn, but it isn't the technology giant that you imagine.

I never said that they don't the capability, only that it is not being used on Americans, which it is not.

As the saying goes, I don't have a horse in this race. I don't personally act on cybercrime, and I have nothing to gain by making up stories. I am simply trying to put people's minds at rest, and pass on the facts that I know to be true.

So, yes, if someone were to be under suspicion of terrorist activities, then yes, there is a chance that this (or any site) could be run through a flag-based program. But, that is not_actively_ happening to American persons.


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## 101airborne (Jan 29, 2010)

While your set-up is pretty good with time allowed to set it up. Thanks to my military training I'll be a bit more leathly minded. Swing traps, punji pits, and such.


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## VUnder (Sep 1, 2011)

Avoidance is your best path to survival. All the time and money being spent on this could be used to locate a more secure location. All the things you are planning sound good, but tomorrow there could be another gang and another, and another, where does it all end?


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## dc300a (Apr 4, 2011)

*Speaking of Pointy Plants.*

Depending on where you live, Spanish Bayonets could be an option. They grow great here in north Florida and I cant think of a single plant that penetrates more layers of clothing or causes more pain. They can go under windows but require occational pruning (which is a painful ordeal in itself) or they can be planted along fences or by themselves.

Here is a link that has pictures, planting, and care. I highly recommend them!!

PICTURE!!


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## mikesolid (Aug 24, 2011)

power said:


> You sure must be planning on having plenty of warning. I have never heard of rowdy city folk or gang members giving a warning or giving a person time to do much of anything. Seems like they might not be a very successful gang. It takes time to do all you would plan on doing. Before you even got half of the jobs finished they would already have attacked or went somewhere else.
> 
> If I was given that amount of time I would begin an offensive against them. Nothing like giving them something to think about during their long wait. Any gang that would give warning and wait until you finished your work would not be that much problem. The leadership is lacking on smarts.


Begin a offense? you must live with your own little gang huh? either that or you've seen too many movies. Real life all it takes is some lucky punk that happens to look your direction for a split second while your thinking your "sneaking up" on them and bam. your dead game over. But hey if you have friends who are capable of holding their own your chances are a LITTLE better.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Undesirable Target*

If the SHTF and there are hoards of strangers marauding in my rural setting, I plan to make my residence an undesirable target.

I will place a sign on the enterances that says ," ACTIVE HIV PAITENT, BLOOD BORN PATHIGEN PROTECTION REQUIRED".

I will leave a couple of red hazardous waste bags full of overflowing bloody bandages on the porch.

If someone knocks on the door, I will answer the door and start begging them for food befor they can ask me for a hand out.

I can always resort to violence if necisary but a little Haloween will go a long way.


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## dc300a (Apr 4, 2011)

^^^^ HAHA! ^^^^
Not a bad idea Bill :congrat:


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## PamsPride (Dec 21, 2010)

What about vegetable can lids? I think folding them at an angle and then nailing them to trees in random angles would make would be intruders think twice. Or putting them up and down fence posts at angles. They are SHARP! 
My son tried to catch a can that was falling off of the counter with the lid sticking up in the air and he required 5 stitches to put his fingers back together. 
Someone could not hide behind your trees either if those are on the opposite side.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

oldsoldier said:


> While your set-up is pretty good with time allowed to set it up. Thanks to my military training I'll be a bit more leathly minded. Swing traps, punji pits, and such.


Now you are talking my language oldsoldier. I may not be able to run anymore or even move a quickly as I used to, but I do sneaky a whole hell of a lot better now than I ever did.

Don't ever count us old warriors out. We may not have a young warrior's body, but we darn sure have a warrior's heart and my aim is as good as it ever was.

I betcha I speak not only for myself but for all of us old soldiers when I say once you "have been there, done that and got the T-shirt" it takes quite a bit to get us old vets flustered.

We don't panic easily and once you try to harm our families or take what we have, you best hope that the Lord will have mercy on you because us old soldiers Damn sure won't.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

The best deterrent hasn't been mentioned. It's pretty grotesque. If you kill an intruder on your property you hang him up in a tree where future trespassers can see what happens to them.


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

BillS said:


> The best deterrent hasn't been mentioned. It's pretty grotesque. If you kill an intruder on your property you hang him up in a tree where future trespassers can see what happens to them.


Then cut out the back straps..build a fire and cook them.. leave bits laying around...


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

BillS said:


> The best deterrent hasn't been mentioned. It's pretty grotesque. If you kill an intruder on your property you hang him up in a tree where future trespassers can see what happens to them.


Oh man...STANKY.....STANKY.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Who wants to discourage them?

Salt and smoke them and feed them to the neighbors.


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## rextex (Sep 14, 2011)

The best defense is a good offense!


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## KittyCat (Dec 1, 2010)

Some years ago I attended an IRS Revenue Officer (field collector) class. Officers receive instructions in verbally defending themselves, as they do not carry firearms. The instructor, however, has trained both Police and non-police personnel. He asked the following question to a Police officer. What is your mission. The answer seemed obvious: to protect and serve. Not so, stated the instructor. The mission of a LEO is to ensure voluntary compliance of the law, not to protect and serve.


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## Maol9 (Oct 3, 2011)

> Who wants to discourage them?
> 
> Salt and smoke them and feed them to the neighbors.


LOL I like my Neighbors more than that.

I do think stripping and throwing them on the barb wire fence would be a good idea. Buzzards gotta eat too. Besides I think clouds of buzzards will tend to keep the vermin down.

When I was a kid our property had signs that read:

"No Trespassing Survivors Will Be Persecuted"

Don't think you can buy those any more.

First is warning signage, then silent perimeter alarms, next 'hides w/caches' in the appropriate places with (battery backed up) line wired comms for 'command and control' and loud speakers for verbal warnings. Radios and boobie traps if we should we have to fall back, and of course to shoot as many of them on the fence, less work that way.

All of the rest is pretty standard


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

KittyCat said:


> Some years ago I attended an IRS Revenue Officer (field collector) class. Officers receive instructions in verbally defending themselves, as they do not carry firearms. The instructor, however, has trained both Police and non-police personnel. He asked the following question to a Police officer. What is your mission. The answer seemed obvious: to protect and serve. Not so, stated the instructor. The mission of a LEO is to ensure voluntary compliance of the law, not to protect and serve.


This instructor sounds like a moron. One cannot "ensure" anything "voluntary"; "encourage", perhaps, but not ensure. Furthermore, the vast majority of a law enforcement officer's day is spent in service to the people, and the mere presence of a uniformed officer is protective.


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

Turtle said:


> Read Executive Order 12333; it outlines exactly what the intelligence community can and cannot do. In fact, it offers a lot protections for the American people.
> 
> Perhaps I should say this: the intelligence community is not spying on Americans, unless they are under investigation for a felony relating to terrorism. The I.C. possesses the VAST majority of the country's surveillance abilities. Now, the Bureau handles domestic terrorism, and to my knowledge, does no have the capabilities of the program described earlier. They may have a small unit that sifts through websites, but i highly doubt they would be interested in this site. They have bigger fish to fry, and not enough resources to accomlish the mission as it stands, let alone trying to take on more work regarding imagined threats from people with too many canned goods. In any case, their data center is in West Virginia, not Texas. Out of curiousity, which agency do you think is handling this? No offense, but unless you have a TS/SCI clearance, you wouldn't be allowed anywhere near a site like that. There may be a local field office that is targeting child porn, but it isn't the technology giant that you imagine.
> 
> ...


Hey turtle , Bro..I'm not trying to piss in your Post Toasties ..and I ain't pissing on your boots and calling it rain...

I worked in a FED LEO unit and I can say this for a 100% fact.. people from my office were at a National Guard base scanning cell phones and peoples internet usage... looking for key words and kiddie porn.. now how they do the Internet I have no idea...

Now I'm really not saying this to appear bigger then life.. and we ain't two kids in the school parking lot bragging on how much beer we can chug or who has the biggest Johnson...

I just want the folks in here to know that this is happening, right now and has been for over 8 years that I know of for a fact ... truly...and it ain't NSA or CIA or DEA.. I would say I think the BATF and maybe the FBI are involved but they aren't the ones I know about...and I "KNOW" some of the guys doing it...personally, we don't take warm showers together but I know them..

Is this like top secret information? not at all... I just don't sweat them.. they know who I am and where I am and probably is I wipe with my left or right hand... screw em.. I don't care.. I am a loyal American Citizen and I resent the hell out of the crap they are pulling.. and I think this ongoing protest thing just may be the match that will fall into the powder keg...as they want it to... and blow up in all our faces...


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

HozayBuck said:


> Hey turtle , Bro..I'm not trying to piss in your Post Toasties ..and I ain't pissing on your boots and calling it rain...
> 
> I worked in a FED LEO unit and I can say this for a 100% fact.. people from my office were at a National Guard base scanning cell phones and peoples internet usage... looking for key words and kiddie porn.. now how they do the Internet I have no idea...
> 
> ...


Right on. As I said before, I don't have a horse in this race, I just don't want people to be scared of shadows when they don't need to be. I don't know everything that the Bureau is up to, but I can attest to a good chunk of the intelligence community. There may very well be activities like that going on, but my guess is that it is more targeted than it may initially appear.

I certainly don't pretend to know everything, but I do like to share what I can, and learn what I don't.

Bottom line is, I think that people get entirely too worked up and worried about this sort of thing. I can say that I probably have a higher security clearance than most anyone on this site, and I am not concerned with passing my next background investigation.


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## Rmplstlskn (Sep 24, 2011)

lexsurivor said:


> ...lets say a group of rowdy city folk or gang members (20-40 people) for whatever reason are going to raid your house,BOL, ect... What homemade defences would you use yo defend your location. (using stuff you currently have)...


I didn't overlook the "stuff you currently have" part, lexsurivor. However, I currently have in place or the stuff to use to do my suggestions below. By the way, I do not claim authorship to any of the ideas. In general, here are some thoughts about dealing with an attack, in numbers, on one's home:

Blast resistant shutters. Or, fitted grills of expanded metal to the outside of all windows; doors leading outside should likewise be security grilled. Set up to keep thrown or propelled objects from passing through exterior openings in your home.

Build thick masonry walls about four feet in front of bedroom windows to stop bullets, but particularly to deal with propelled explosives. Do not place your beds against the outside walls of the house.

Have a designated safe/fallback area (not a typical "safe room") in the house to create an ensconced defenders' position until support arrives. Try to choose an area that allows movement into other rooms. Reinforce the ceiling over the safe/fallback area and lay in sand bags in the attic space.

Have radio contact available with your closest four or five neighbors (hand held vhf radios are cheap). Use star clusters as a signal to neighbors too. Stay on good terms with your neighbors; start now.

Build a chain link perimeter fence. Keep razor wire handy to stretch around the fence. Keep the view of the entire fence unobstructed from the house. Flood lights on the roof directed to the fence. Wire a three way switch into the wall next to the bed in the master bedroom that turns the light in the kitchen on.

Dogs. Keep the outside dogs outside all the time. Keep the inside dog inside all the time. Kennel your inside dog during the day and turn him loose at night. Don't feed your dogs after noon.

Shotguns for everybody (I use Remington 870's) even the kids. Sidearms for all adults. For anybody that could be tried as an adult that is (I make a funny). At least one .308 caliber, semi-automatic rifle (M1A1, Garand, HK, FAL, AR, AK, whatever). Keep them close. And whatever else you can thoughtfully acquire.

Read what others in the situation have done (do the research, or not). Israel, South Africa, Rhodesia, and so forth...

Retrofitting what you've got is good. Designing things into a new build is better (if one finds ones self in this situation).


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## Rmplstlskn (Sep 24, 2011)

Turtle said:


> Right on...I think that people get entirely too worked up and worried about this sort of thing...


Turtle, I agree. Why get worked up about something, whether real or not, that you cannot do much about? Rather, stay busy with what you can do about being prepared. Chances are, the more "prepared" people there are, the less the likelihood of that kind of I.C./FBI behavior has in becoming an immediate problem (that is if one subscribes to the idea of Big Brother looking over one's shoulder).

Burn baby, burn.


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## lefty (Sep 29, 2011)

thr [rpblrm is not that they will use this kind of stuff to find you but if they deciede that you are a problem then they will use it to come after you. They have no conflict of using whatever means nessecarry to get what they want.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

lefty said:


> thr [rpblrm is not that they will use this kind of stuff to find you but if they deciede that you are a problem then they will use it to come after you. They have no conflict of using whatever means nessecarry to get what they want.


It's just like I said in another post, I am probably on more lists than I have fingers and toes (yes I have all of mine) and "frankly Scarlett I don't give a Damn".

Yes "they" have their lists and there isn't a thing you or I can really do about it, so why let it drive you nuts worrying about it.

We have enough problems staring us in the face without adding to them.

Yes "they" know who most if not all of us are.

Yes "they" know where you live.

Yes "they" could come for any of us at any time with whatever phony pretext or charges they care to make up.

Yes, yes, yes to all of the what if's.

I will continue to prep, I will protect my family with whatever force is necessary, I will not run away screaming "they" are comming to get me, and as I said I will not worry myself sick about how much "they" know about me or anyone else that I am associated with.

"THEY" can take a running start and jump as high as "THEY" need to to plant a lip lock on my hairy butt.

DM


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## Rmplstlskn (Sep 24, 2011)

lefty said:


> thr [rpblrm is not that they will use this kind of stuff to find you but if they deciede that you are a problem then they will use it to come after you. They have no conflict of using whatever means nessecarry to get what they want.


Sure, Lefty, I get that. But what's to be done to prevent that from happening?


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## KittyCat (Dec 1, 2010)

Turtle said:


> This instructor sounds like a moron. One cannot "ensure" anything "voluntary"; "encourage", perhaps, but not ensure. Furthermore, the vast majority of a law enforcement officer's day is spent in service to the people, and the mere presence of a uniformed officer is protective.


I would like to respond to your statement, as certain inportant facts and circumstances were omitted and it is not reasonable to form a judgement without such information. This was a failing on my part.

01) The year of instruction was 1994.

02) The course was conducted by two professional, highly experienced, competent GS-11 Revenue Officer instructors. Guest visitors included other officers of the same caliber.

03) The specific instruction regarding voluntary compliance came from a video produced by the Verbal Judo Institute. The instructor is a police officer. He has trained over 270,000 LEOs and other individuals since 1984. On the Verbal Judo webpage it reads "generating voluntary compliance, enhanced professionalism, prevent verbal attacks from escalating"...

04) Verbal Judo, is also known as tactical communication. You probably received some form of this instruction when you attended the Federal Law Enforcement Training at Glyco, GA.

05) The word "ensure" is defined in the Merrian-Webster dictionary as follows: make certain (something) shall occur or be the case." It could be stated a guarantee, an assurance for the fulfillment of a condition.

My apology for not making a clear statement. Have a good day and stay safe...


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

oldvet said:


> It's just like I said in another post, I am probably on more lists than I have fingers and toes (yes I have all of mine) and "frankly Scarlett I don't give a Damn".
> 
> Yes "they" have their lists and there isn't a thing you or I can really do about it, so why let it drive you nuts worrying about it.
> 
> ...


*We are in agreement! I frankly don't give a ratz ass who listens or watches... As I've always said...I have guns.. knowing I have guns is the easy part...getting them away from me is where the Doughnut meets the hole.. The biggest problem I've seen is people just won't stand up and say NO! but I understand.. family... dead really is a long time... fear.. all good reasons to be meek...

We each have to meet the man in our own way.. they always come with a gang of buddy's, where as the poor target is all alone or has his family in the way ...One day they will push the wrong person and will get " shoved" back...hard!...

BUT!! "THEY" are listening.... count on it.. not fear it... just know it. *


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## lickit (Oct 6, 2011)

*if there's that many, and they have repeating arms*

you can't stop them. They will use Molotov cocktails and darkness and burn you out, snipe you, etc. If you are dumb enough to have an above ground shelter, and you put up a fight, that betrays the fact that you have something worth fighting FOR. If there are no easier targets in easily reached distance, they will have no choice but to try to take YOU. Otherwise, they will freeze, starve, etc.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

lickit said:


> you can't stop them. They will use Molotov cocktails and darkness and burn you out, snipe you, etc. If you are dumb enough to have an above ground shelter, and you put up a fight, that betrays the fact that you have something worth fighting FOR. If there are no easier targets in easily reached distance, they will have no choice but to try to take YOU. Otherwise, they will freeze, starve, etc.


I have read most of your posts today and some of it I agree with and some of it I don't. 
Now having said that I will also add that calling those of us that don't care to live "underground" dumb is not going to get you a whole lot of "brownie points" with a lot of the folks on here.

DM


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

Lickit: 
I am not trying to start anything, it's just that we all have different ideas on how to defend what is ours and we will respect your ideas if you respect ours. 

Dm


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## Rmplstlskn (Sep 24, 2011)

oldvet said:


> Lickit:...it's just that we all have different ideas on how to defend what is ours...


Oldvet, it sounds like you are at odds with what Lickit believes; so am I. He is also at odds with history. History as this exact same scenario has played out in other places, like Rhodesia and Israel.

Learn how to fight. Be prepared to fight. And be sure to put up a hell of a fight when the time comes...


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## lickit (Oct 6, 2011)

*NEVER has anyone experienced shtf as we will.*

It's always been a localized thing that you could always get out of with a bit of cash. When, not if, the US economy crashes, the rest of the world is going to crash, too. It's too intertwined, either directly with US, or with countries who will crash without us. The VC PROVED that below ground sheltering works, for about 30 years, starting with the Japs in WW2. The fact that you don't LIKE it doesn't change the reality of the situation. All above ground buildings will be searched by the desperate, many times over. So stay out of dugout=die, soon after shtf. So you can call that whatever you like, I call it dumb.


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## Rmplstlskn (Sep 24, 2011)

lickit said:


> ...dugout=die...So you can call that whatever you like, I call it dumb.


Confucius say, "man who digs a dugout digs his own grave"


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

From here on I'll just try to live as best we can unil its over.I want to be able to eat so we grow a garden and have chickens.I put up some food but won't spend all of what little we have on prepping.
Far as the fight is concerned we already lost,imo.This nation is full of enemies from within and outside.
Do the best you can and live while you can.Why live if you can't enjoy life? 
We have one inside Scooby Doo and a few outside dogs.Protection if criminals come to harm us.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

Rmplstlskn said:


> Oldvet, it sounds like you are at odds with what Lickit believes; so am I. He is also at odds with history. History as this exact same scenario has played out in other places, like Rhodesia and Israel.
> 
> Learn how to fight. Be prepared to fight. And be sure to put up a hell of a fight when the time comes...


Yep, totally agree. Think, listen, look, learn, train, then act.
Each of us will defend what is ours in our own way. 
The way we have been taught or actually experienced.
The there is only one way to do something mentality is totally absurd.

If you are going to survive any situation you had better be flexible and open to all ideas.

Just saying.

DM


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

lickit said:


> It's always been a localized thing that you could always get out of with a bit of cash. When, not if, the US economy crashes, the rest of the world is going to crash, too. It's too intertwined, either directly with US, or with countries who will crash without us. The VC PROVED that below ground sheltering works, for about 30 years, starting with the Japs in WW2. The fact that you don't LIKE it doesn't change the reality of the situation. All above ground buildings will be searched by the desperate, many times over. So stay out of dugout=die, soon after shtf. So you can call that whatever you like, I call it dumb.


*My suggestion to you is to stop posting, get to digging your hole, you ain't got 30 years..also you may want to get out of Dallas..think?

As for me and mine, we will live in the sunshine like the Almighty intended not in a hole like a mole...
I'd rather die with the sun on my face then live in a grave...

Having a nice bunker "ABOVE" ground that is defensible and provides cover with the ability to fight back is fine.. going in a hole and pulling it shut won't work if they wanna dig you out... you mention the VC.. we killed many thousands of them in their caves and tunnels... more then any will ever know..

Om Iwo Jima they Japaneses Government are still digging out the remains of their people and giving them a proper burial.. so much for living underground *


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## lickit (Oct 6, 2011)

*VC used dugouts to defeat japs, French US*

so you are full of it, dudes. You are too scared/lazy to dig, that's all.


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## SageAdvicefarmgirl (Jun 23, 2011)

lickit said:


> so you are full of it, dudes. You are too scared/lazy to dig, that's all.


You sound *quite young*:dunno:, licky, or maybe you're acting *Less* than your age, but you oughta show some manners and respect, if not *in life*, at least on this forum!


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## Rmplstlskn (Sep 24, 2011)

lickit said:


> so you are full of it, dudes. You are too scared/lazy to dig, that's all.


I can dig it man!

Peace, keep the faith baby.


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## whome (Oct 6, 2011)

SageAdvicefarmgirl said:


> You sound *quite young*:dunno:, licky, or maybe you're acting *Less* than your age, but you oughta show some manners and respect, if not *in life*, at least on this forum!


:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:


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## Rmplstlskn (Sep 24, 2011)

Meerkat said:


> ..Far as the fight is concerned we already lost, imo. This nation is full of enemies from within and outside...


Meerkat, I understand your perspective about our country. And I have a tremendous amount of respect for the liberty this country has afforded you to make them.

However, for some of us though, it's not about winning or loosing, or having already lost. I'ts about keeping our word. Some of us, myself included, have sworn a sacred oath to defend this country and it's constitution against all enemies both foreign and domestic.

Should the time come, and the right circumstances present themselves, it would be like a match thrown to gasoline, a rather predictable event. We would keep our word. Win, lose, or draw, would make no difference.

We would gladly bleed on the flag to keep its constitutional stripes red...

Finally, it is my opinion that the more prepared folks are, the less likely certain events become. The less harsh the events that do happen become. And here I am primarily thinking of my children. And in particular, my grandchildren who are simply not sophisticated enough to decide under what circumstance life is, or is not, worth living. I remain committed.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

SageAdvicefarmgirl said:


> You sound *quite young*:dunno:, licky, or maybe you're acting *Less* than your age, but you oughta show some manners and respect, if not *in life*, at least on this forum!


Couldn't agree more! :2thumb:

By the way and just to ease my curosity Lickit , just where did you get all of your knowledge and experience in combat, tactics, firearms, survival, prepping, and let us not forget "DUCT TAPE".

I'm not really trying to start anything I am just very curious.

I also don't understand why you seem to think that insulting everyone that don't agree with you or think the way you do is the way to "win friends and influence people".

Partner if you were to try and lighten up and learn how to carry on a fair and friendly conversation with other people, you just might be surprised how helpful the good folks on here can be.

Please give it some thought before you alienate yourself with everyone on here.

DM


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

lickit said:


> so you are full of it, dudes. You are too scared/lazy to dig, that's all.


Well DUDE... it's not gonna take you as long to burn out under this name as it did your last one... if you're gonna "Troll" you need to change a few things, being such a frickin genius I'm sure you will figure it out soon...

So far I've see nothing you've posted that wasn't in a Negative tone , just as before under the old name...

Personally from me, go play somewhere else... you're a PITA who contributes nothing but bullchit..

I have no right to tell you that except the time I have in this forum and the "family" that has grown up in here kinda makes me feel protective of it...so, play nice , bring knowledge and experience and share in a manner that don't sound like you are the smart one and we are all stupid...

Most of the folks in here have forgotten more about homesteading and prepping then you will ever know...respect that , stop making every post sound like you think everybody but you is stupid...

There once again I ran with sharp things and didn't play well with others.. but I'm right..and you know it..


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

HozayBuck said:


> Well DUDE... it's not gonna take you as long to burn out under this name as it did your last one... if you're gonna "Troll" you need to change a few things, being such a frickin genius I'm sure you will figure it out soon...
> 
> So far I've see nothing you've posted that wasn't in a Negative tone , just as before under the old name...
> 
> ...


Yep, you ran and played with those sharp edges, but you played just fine with me and yep you were right. :2thumb:

DM


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## Maol9 (Oct 3, 2011)

> "Oldvet, it sounds like you are at odds with what Lickit believes; so am I. He is also at odds with history. History as this exact same scenario has played out in other places, like Rhodesia and Israel.
> Learn how to fight. Be prepared to fight. And be sure to put up a hell of a fight when the time comes..."


Don't forget Argentina



> "Confucius say, "man who digs a dugout digs his own grave"


What kind of STHF Scenarios are you planning for? Personally I can think of several in which it would be beneficial or critical to have a well-equipped bunker; full Scale War or Terrorist Attack by NBC, or even plain old wild fires all come to mind.

During wild fires twice in the past we have fought fires around the clock and once we were in serious danger of being overrun and were told to evacuate, we refused, and because of that the fire fighters chose to stay and help and six properties were saved. Having a bunker to retreat to sure would make the decision to stay and fight easier.

I travel all over the US for my work and have seen Tornadoes on the increase in places where they used to be fairly rare. Not to mention protection from Super Storms and being able to quickly and easily defend your property after the event is over. Those are just a few events I can think of I am sure there are more; I certainly would like to have one myself soon.

Confucius say, 'Build a man a fire and he is warm for a night, set him on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life' - from somebody on the internet


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## Rmplstlskn (Sep 24, 2011)

Maol9 said:


> ...What kind of STHF Scenarios are you planning for? Personally I can think of several in which it would be beneficial or critical to have a well-equipped bunker...


I agree, and have a hole for me and mine. Maol, my response was to devil Lickit. He has been a bad boy... CF


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## Maol9 (Oct 3, 2011)

LOL. I do that sometimes myself. Especially with certain liberals who always argue with me, no matter what. So I assume their position on a subject and then listen to my beliefs coming out of their mouths. It really makes me grin. My SO thinks I am a bad boy when I do this. Good for me that she has a thing for 'bad boys'. LOL Peace Out


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

Maol9 said:


> Don't forget Argentina
> 
> What kind of STHF Scenarios are you planning for? Personally I can think of several in which it would be beneficial or critical to have a well-equipped bunker; full Scale War or Terrorist Attack by NBC, or even plain old wild fires all come to mind.
> 
> ...


To certain degree I will agree with you. Having a bunker very close to your living quarters is IMHO a good idea, however it should be used only as a delaying tactic to give the members of your family, group or both time to take "the rabbit hole" and put into play whatever plan that you have come up with.
If it is a small force that is attacking you and you honestly think you can put them down, then I say stay and get it done. If it is a large and overwhelming force, again use your planned escape route (rabbit hole).

Our retreat is pretty far off the beaten path and set back in the woods. I don't think we would ever have a major force comming against us, but in the off chance that we did we will have ample warning.

We will have time to get everyone except my wife and I out.
We have discussed this and have decided we will pull a rear guard/holding action to ensure everyone gets out safely. We haven't discussed this with our Son and Daughter because we know what their reaction will be.
They will never know what we have planned to do until/if it actually happens. Don't think for an instant that we are being heroic or have lost our minds, because you would be mistaken. As I told my better half, due to one rebuilt knee, two screws in the other, a bum ticker, being overweight out of shape and 64 years old, I have no intention of trying to keep up with everyone else and I would be a major burden to them.

We both agreed that we have had a very good life, raised a couple of very good kiddo's, have been a strong part in our grandkids lives and we want to be able to do whatever we can to ensure they stay alive.

So I imagine you can understand where we are comming from and why we plan to go that route should the need arise.

DM


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## Maol9 (Oct 3, 2011)

> So I imagine you can understand where we are comming from and why we plan to go that route should the need arise.


Absolutely oldvet, I get your reason's and it seems well thought out. I am just saying that there are many STHF scenarios, and that a well hidden, well stocked, well made bunker is a part of total preparedness.

I certainly wouldn't be relying on it in all scenarios, it does play in all of them. Here is what I posted earlier in this thread. Notice a bunker wasn't even mentioned as a factor. (My Avatar might give a clue to my ultimate plan in a complete and total collapse, pretty much the same as yours.)



> I do think stripping and throwing them on the barb wire fence would be a good idea. Buzzards gotta eat too. Besides I think clouds of buzzards will tend to keep the vermin down.
> 
> When I was a kid our property had signs that read:
> 
> ...


If we do have to bug out, it will be with an eye to re-taking what is ours as savagely as possible. Assets will be left behind and hidden to assist in that. If that looks it will not succeed, we will simply 'scorch the earth', retake it and then utilize the bunker.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*During WWII*

During WWII, the Germans had a tactic wherein they would fire on a squad fo US soldiers from a pill box. As soon as fire was returned, the US troops would se them bugging out the rear of the pill box and over the hill behind it.

As soon as the us troops took the pill box, they would get hit with mortar fire and they would take cover in the pill box.

The Germans would then remotely trigger explosive charges hidden in the pill box, killing the US troops.

They would then mount a counter charge and retake the pill box and hopefully be able to do it all over again.

The mountain man "Liver eating Johnson" killed seven blackfoot Indians who had his winter cabin surrounded by escaping through a hidden tunnel and leaving behind a pan full of hot biscuits poisoned with wolf bait.

There is more than one way to defend your home.


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## HamiltonFelix (Oct 11, 2011)

That's for sure. Having a "bugout when overrun" option, with suitable nasties left behind, could be VERY valuable if needed.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

I hear both of you and agree there are many surprises that can be handed out to any unwanted guests. We have a few up our sleves, and with OPSEC in mind I will say that yes it can be retaken if you have to retreat and it will be. 

However if my family and the rest of our group are hindered or slowed down to much to be able to safely make it out because of me or several other "elders" then what is the point of even making contegency plans. 

I refuse to be the reason why they didn't make it. As I said in my last post I know that I can't keep up in a hasty and prolonged retreat, so why not stay and fight a holding action so my loved ones and friends that are able to make it out, can make it out. 

Like I said it's not being heroic, crazy, or stupid, it just makes the most sense to me and "Mama". Besides we don't fear death we know what is waiting for us.
Don't get me wrong the chances are very much in our favor that this would probably never happen, it's just that if it does then we will be ready to do what we feel we have to.

On a little lighter note, you should have seen the look "Mama" gave me when I told her what I had planned. After she sat there a minute and finally digested what I had said she looked at me frowned and said verbatim: "now just where in the heck do you think I am going to go without you? I swear sometimes you are so dense that I can't believe I have put up with you for forty years". She did soften that last statement with a grin the proceded to belt me on the arm for even thinking about staying without her.

Gotta love her! Yep I do. 

DM


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## Maol9 (Oct 3, 2011)

> There is more than one way to defend your home.


There sure is. As my late father used to say "There is than one way to separate a feline from it's pelt."

I get the OPSEC thing. So I will just say that a lot can be done with pretty common and otherwise innocuous materials.

Nuff Said.


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## HamiltonFelix (Oct 11, 2011)

I know this is a discussion of mostly what we can do once TSHTF and we're operating WROL. But for now, while we have to conform to the law, this should be mentioned: 

I have a friend who was in prison with a guy doing more time for "fortifying" his house than he was for the drugs they found. These laws were written as part of the "war on drugs" (one aspect of the true War on Liberty). In almost all states, hardening your house is now a crime. I did just a little digging and found that in MOST states, they have to make a drug raid and actually find drugs, then they can charge you. In a few states, they need only make a "drug raid," even if it's the wrong house, you're pure as the driven snow, etc. 

But trust me, the same Officer Friendly who goes to neighborhood meetings and tells you about good locks and bars on the windows, WILL arrest you and take you to jail if he finds it too difficult to smash open your door on a raid. 

This is one more reason for good OPSEC and avoiding highly visible modifications. Yes, I can see the deterrent value of a place that looks hard to crack, but it will make you a target of Big Brother. 

I have all sorts of ideas, from barbed wire fences that don't look electric but can be charged to lethal voltage and ampacity (hey, I am an Electrical Worker) to lawn sprinklers that switch over to gasoline when needed. But I just want to make sure we all know that making your house at all resistant to attack is a serious crime when Big Brother is doing the attacking.


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## Rmplstlskn (Sep 24, 2011)

HamiltonFelix said:


> ...In almost all states, hardening your house is now a crime. I did just a little digging and found that in MOST states, they have to make a drug raid and actually find drugs, then they can charge you.


HF, I would like to read more on the subject please. Links? CF


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## SageAdvicefarmgirl (Jun 23, 2011)

rextex said:


> The best defense is a good offense!


One of my pappy's favorite lines...


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## Maol9 (Oct 3, 2011)

> ...In almost all states, hardening your house is now a crime.


HamiltonFelix, I too am extremely interested in what you have stated, regarding castle hardening. I certainly have not put in in place anything which is a hazard to anyone 'innocently' coming on the property. I am putting aside innocuous materials which in a time of need can be em-placed. However I believe you are talking about a violation of the BOR which I have not heard of and is extremely important. If you have examples please expound for the benefit of us all. Thanx.


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## HamiltonFelix (Oct 11, 2011)

Darn, I knew I should have saved that stuff. I've had this discussion before, on other forums. <sigh> I suppose this means more searching, under several phrases, before I'm pointed in the right direction. When I did it before, I found several states in addition to my own (Washington), before I quit because I had the general idea. In general, UNTIL you are attacked by Big Brother, having a "fort" is just fine. But the day _"they"_ send a SWAT team, because your wife bought too many cold pills or the druggie down the street pointed at your house in an attempt to buy his way out of jail time, then it's a crime if _"they"_ can't break in easily.

We have 16 ft. tubular type gates (common in rural areas and available at farm supply stores) on the house we're fixing up right now. My wife suggested some "additions" that would make ramming it with a car less than productive. I'm thinking some "artistic" little wavy lines or something, perhaps blue painted 1/4" rod stock to contrast with the green gate, but the flat black "supports" for the artistic stuff will be much more than necessary and nastily pointed. I have to admit I got the idea from my employer: We have a substation in back of the Pike Place Market in Seattle, and people were always jumping the low concrete fence and messing around with our vehicles in the upper parking lot. A few years after I'd moved back to the Skagit from Seattle, I happened to be at the Pike Place Market. I noticed that our "one percent for art" program had installed something that looked like plants and leaves atop that wall -- all made of galvanized steel, all tall and pointy. Nobody jumps that fence anymore.

Actually, I think the modifications will be made to the front gate, the one we use, the one with the power opener. The less than obvious back/side gate will remain chained, be allowed to become slightly overgrown, and some unpleasant suprises may be hidden just outside the gate.

BTW, medieval caltrops are very useful. Four points radiating from the center of a tetrahedron; no matter how it lands it has a tripod base and one spiked pointed straight up. Make the spikes of tubular material if you want to defeat "puncture proof" tires. The were originally deployed against cavalry. Make 'em big enough and they'll even be hard on tanks.

Hmmmm...... It's been way too long since I fired up my welder...


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## ducksnjeeps (Jan 29, 2010)

While trying to clean an aglae covered swiming pool once, I mistakenly mixed muratic acid in with some heavily chlorinated water. A yellow fog of death rolled off of it and a couple of whiffs landing me in the emergency room. I saw a parade as my life flashed before my eyes. The Drs said I was lucky to have been in the open and able to get away from it as under the wrong conditions it could have proven itself deadly.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Chemisty*

When you mix clorine with acid, the acid reacts with the clorine suspension and boils it off into clorine gas.

This is one of the two chemicals used during WWI to drive soldiers out of the trenches.

It will burn your lungs!


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## ducksnjeeps (Jan 29, 2010)

Your telling me... Burned my lungs, throat, sinuses, etc. It was nasty bad news. I would definitely not want to experience that ever again.


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## ImNotCrazyRU (Oct 18, 2011)

*Vietnamese bungee pits*

The North Vietnamese were big on bungee pits and sharp wooden stakes. Small pieces of plywood with nails sticking up under your first floor windows are a good alternative. They can be disguised with debris or leaves.


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## bigdadvrod (Feb 25, 2013)

ZoomZoom said:


> lex - a couple thoughts on your setup.
> 
> After removing the deck wood and putting the screws through it, put several of the boards back on the deck, under the windows and doors. They'll be walking on nails if they attempt to get too close to an entry point.
> 
> ...


chlorine bomb....love it:congrat:


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## bigdadvrod (Feb 25, 2013)

lexsurivor said:


> With the bleach and ammonia idea how big of a radius should you avoid.


depends on wind conditions...that stuff is deadly. We had a chlorine leak last year at a public pool and we evacuated the area for a half mile perimeter. For what you are talking about, which would be construed a 'small leak'....200 feet minimum. Chlorine gas is TOXIC...whether inhaled or by absorbtion.


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## Griff (Jan 12, 2013)

Officer Friendly told us, a long time ago, to layer our defenses from suggestion to warning to ordering to direct action, so that a reasonable man would understand that you were justified in doing whatever was necessary to stop the threat. Force Continuum. Escalation of Force. 

For example, if the bad guy(s) had to travel down a rutted dirt road which was marked "Private" and "No Trespassing" in multiple languages and locations, and continued on to climb several fences, some of which were pokey / slashy, lit up by security lights and on camera, accompanied by the soothing sounds of security alarms, somehow making it past multiple dogs, and then broke down your hardened security door...well, then, you pretty much gave them every opportunity not to die until they did. 

This also probably makes you a harder target than your neighbor. 
Something to think about. 

What was the old saying? "Deter Detect Delay Defend."
Like that. 

Personally, I like Blackberry brambles, because you can't eat barbed wire, unless you're psychotic; and ditches, because they also create hills.


Cheers, Y'all


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Griff said:


> Officer Friendly told us, a long time ago, to layer our defenses from suggestion to warning to ordering to direct action, so that a reasonable man would understand that you were justified in doing whatever was necessary to stop the threat. Force Continuum. Escalation of Force.
> 
> For example, if the bad guy(s) had to travel down a rutted dirt road which was marked "Private" and "No Trespassing" in multiple languages and locations, and continued on to climb several fences, some of which were pokey / slashy, lit up by security lights and on camera, accompanied by the soothing sounds of security alarms, somehow making it past multiple dogs, and then broke down your hardened security door...well, then, you pretty much gave them every opportunity not to die until they did.
> 
> ...


Griff, First, Thank you for opening this old thread, I have read all 11 pages and learned a few things. I really liked your 4D's (Deter, Detect, Delay, Defend) I thought that was very well stated and easy to remember (I may steal the term in the future - ). I learned how to make and use chlorine gas (to recover my overrun home). I learned about "Spanish Bayonet" plants, a great outer perimeter defense and a a confirmation of some older deterrents.

So thanks again for bringing it to the surface.


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