# Who Will Survive SHTF The Best



## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

A loner or a group? And the reasons why one is better than the other.

IMO a group has the best chance because of the gangs that will be on the prowl. We had a Community Watch Meeting last year and that would have been a good time to bring up the subject. The officer who came out here had lots of good ideas about what works and what doesn't in the case of crime.

You just call your local sheriffs dept and they set up a time to come and they also put up signs on the road saying protected by community watch.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Meerkat said:


> A loner or a group? And the reasons why one is better than the other. IMO a group has the best chance because of the gangs that will be on the prowl. We had a Community Watch Meeting last year and that would have been a good time to bring up the subject. The officer who came out here had lots of good ideas about what works and what doesn't in the case of crime.
> You just call your local sheriffs dept and they set up a time to come and they also put up signs on the road saying protected by community watch.


The answer to that question pretty much depends on your location. If you're in/near any "urban area," I'd say a "group," but it better be a group that is WILLING TO PULL THE TRIGGER.....just waving the guns around, and saying "go away," is NOT gonna work.

If you're in a "rural community," the entire community will likely be your "group," or it certainly should be. Most rural communities have only 2-4 ways "in/out," and they can shut them down in minutes...marauders either have to take to the woods (not a good idea for them!!), or turn around and get outta Dodge (much better idea for them).

"Lone wolf" (or lone family) only works if you are truly "isolated," and I mean MILES type isolated, in an area where (a) no one else has any business being in the first place, and (b) where no one is likely to stumble upon you by accident. The "problem" with this, is this can be VERY expensive, and you're probably not gonna find many Preppers with that kind of budget available.
A. The isolated "land" itself can be had relatively inexpensively, and property taxes are very low.
B. BUT, and here comes that nasty "but;" It will cost you a small fortune to FLY everything in (unless you go really "primitive"). Log cabin kits are relatively inexpensive, but "labor" is a killer, unless you have a bunch of strong sons! Once the kit is there, ya gotta BUILD it. And you're gonna have to "modify" it to put in solar (a 25KW rooftop set-up runs over $25,000). Then there is the "backup" power....generator, water turbine (requires fast flowing creek/river), or possibly "wind turbine (depends on location/prevailing wind patterns)," none of which are "cheap." Then ya got fuel bladders (for the generator, and any diesel guzzling equipment), water bladders (reserve). Then there's the septic tank, and also your "water supply (deep well)." And, naturally, said fuel guzzling equipment, which can be had used (get spare parts, too)...tractor, whatever. I could go on and on...but the bottom line is, unless you're willing and able to go really "primitive," it's gonna get VERY EXPENSIVE, even if you do it piecemeal over a span of years. And generally speaking, for that kind of isolation, you're only way in/out is gonna be by air, and if you're not a pilot with your own helo, that "air transport" is pretty "iffy," if the shtf. And if you ARE a pilot with your own helo, you gotta add in another fuel bladder for the JP-8, a few barrels of oil, a hanger, tools, spare parts, yada, yada, yada. And operating expenses are not inconsiderable, even an old beat up JetRanger will run you $500-$700 an hour. (Never mind what you paid for it in the first place!) Then there are medical supplies, seeds, some animals (chickens, baby goats, etc.), all your furniture, Ham radio/license, satellite/signal hacking gear (ummm, forget I said that), 
emergency food supplies (MREs mostly), appliances, tools, yada, yada, yada.

For a "loner/loner family," you are pretty much limited to two choices, and it all depends on your budget:
1. Go "primitive."
2. Be ready to spend one hell of a lot of money, even if it's over a period of years. "Non-primitive" isolation gets VERY expensive!

"Rural Group" is considerably less costly, especially since you're already living in/near some small rural community, because basically the whole community is going to be (or should be) the "group." But coordinated emergency plans are a MUST....everyone needs to be on the same page. (As for supplies, see below.)
"Group" in the urban area sense, is basically gonna be your "neighborhood," and you're already living there. Basically all you need is emergency water storage, emergency food inventory, ammo, neighborhood communication system, medical supplies, and a coordinated neighborhood emergency plan so EVERYBODY is on the same page. Depending on the demographics of the "urban area" (and the grit of your neighbors) urban areas COULD BE very sticky. "Talk" is cheap...are they willing to PULL THE TRIGGER is the BIGGIE. If they ain't willing to pull the trigger, all those weapons are USELESS.

Just my personal opinion, but I really DO NOT want to be stuck in any "urban area" if the SHTF! "Rural," in my opinion, is doable, and if the community as a whole has some sand in their wheelbarrow, is not a bad scenario. Me, personally, I chose "isolation," but like I said, unless you're willing to do "primitive," it gets very, very expensive, even though the "land cost" itself may be exceptionally reasonable.

:soapbox1:


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

Pess all good points and things to think about.

Another problem to try to avoid or keep close watch on is those in the community who want to rule over others. So this needs to be talked about right off. Some will try to take over and them and theirs will treat themselves to the goods others may not get as often or at all. This is why it is important to have meetings,imo.

Our meeting was on the dirt road and everyone brought their own chair. Out here most live on dirt roads which can be monitored fairly easy.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Meerkat said:


> Pess all good points and things to think about.
> Another problem to try to avoid or keep close watch on is those in the community who want to rule over others. So this needs to be talked about right off. Some will try to take over and them and theirs will treat themselves to the goods others may not get as often or at all. This is why it is important to have meetings,imo. Our meeting was on the dirt road and everyone brought their own chair. Out here most live on dirt roads which can be monitored fairly easy.


Yes, everyone needs to be on the same page, and there needs to be a specific "chain of command"....in rural areas, that chain will likely be headed by the Police Chief, or County Sheriff.


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

Pessimistic2 said:


> Yes, everyone needs to be on the same page, and there needs to be a specific "chain of command"....in rural areas, that chain will likely be headed by the Police Chief, or County Sheriff.


 It would probably be more like a committee of neighbors since the sheriff lives a long way from here and will likely be busy with his own community. I think what will happen will be bartering and protecting our community more so than setting up others to govern at least at first. Maybe later.

I found out years ago I can become a dictator real quick. :scratch So I have to watch myself and excuse myself from any authority. :surrender: And don't want too much over me either.


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

Meerkat said:


> A loner or a group? And the reasons why one is better than the other.
> 
> IMO a group has the best chance because of the gangs that will be on the prowl. We had a Community Watch Meeting last year and that would have been a good time to bring up the subject. The officer who came out here had lots of good ideas about what works and what doesn't in the case of crime.
> 
> You just call your local sheriffs dept and they set up a time to come and they also put up signs on the road saying protected by community watch.


I like the idea of this. I'll put my 2 cents in once I have more time later today.


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Meerkat said:


> It would probably be more like a committee of neighbors since the sheriff lives a long way from here and will likely be busy with his own community. I think what will happen will be bartering and protecting our community more so than setting up others to govern at least at first. Maybe later.
> 
> I found out years ago I can become a dictator real quick. :scratch So I have to watch myself and excuse myself from any authority. :surrender: And don't want too much over me either.


Since I am a distrusting person (really you say) i have elected to go the lone wolf /family route. I have never seen and been around any group that did not have personality problems and in a SHTF setting, that is going to get many people dead or injured.

Some people will not be able to pull the trigger and others too willing to pull the trigger. How will you actually know until it is a critical time. Some bodies child get captured and all OPSEC is out the window, Parents tell all and will even open the gates. There is safety in numbers but also great liability, each person /family is going to have to make that choice.

Great topic, more input please.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

tmttactical said:


> Since I am a distrusting person (really you say) i have elected to go the lone wolf /family route. I have never seen and been around any group that did not have personality problems and in a SHTF setting, that is going to get many people dead or injured.
> Some people will not be able to pull the trigger and others too willing to pull the trigger. How will you actually know until it is a critical time. Some bodies child get captured and all OPSEC is out the window, Parents tell all and will even open the gates. There is safety in numbers but also great liability, each person /family is going to have to make that choice. Great topic, more input please.


This is exactly why I chose the "loner" route....I know what I will do, I DON'T KNOW what others might, or might not, do! That said, I can visualize a "rural community" as being a viable "group," providing everyone is on the same page and the command structure is in place.


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

I'm sure there are pros and cons to every situation. Hope more give imput. 

I'm still leaning towards community and in case yall haven't noticed I can be real opinionated so my hubby would have to keep on me to make sure we weren't the first casualties.


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

Well as a person who is just beginning to think about being prepared, i personally think that it would be better to be in a group of say 10 to 20 people with different skill sets, for example, a carpenters, farmers, plumbers, electricians, hunters, gatherers, security(police military and such) and the like, so that not one person has to do everything on their own, you would also need a leader and only one to make the final decision, and have the rest follow, not necessarily blindly, it would have to be a tight nit community for it to work.

Might be right might be wrong but that's how i feel. 

Now taking debate orders lol


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Meerkat said:


> I'm sure there are pros and cons to every situation. Hope more give imput.
> 
> I'm still leaning towards community and in case yall haven't noticed I can be real opinionated so my hubby would have to keep on me to make sure we weren't the first casualties.


MeerKat, That is the problem, Alpha types and jealous beta types and then mix in the self serving, the wimps, the cowards and then figure out how they are going to come together and work as a team while under extreme duress.

If you don't live with them or where raised with them, you do not know how they are going to react or how subversive they may become to the group. There are too many very well documented cases of neighbors / friends turning on each other during stressful times (war, famine, religious revolts / conflicts --- think witch burning) and I think it out weights the advantage of numbers.

People do come together for short periods of time, local natural disasters, building collapses, etc. but not in long term crisis --- local wars (Bosnia), economic collapse (Argentina) or any other lasting event. In long term events there are more wolves, than sheep dogs. Only someone with a very close personal relationship to you can be counted to loyal. Every body else is just educated guess work.

There are a great many on this forum I think would be perfect for a MAG but the key phrase is "I Think" they would be perfect. I really don't know them, just the image they project. They are not being false but my perception may not be who they are in reality.

Since I have not been able to perfect my "people reading" skills, I am going to stick with the lone wolf / family approach.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

Really depends on the shtf scenario that plays out and the capabilities/prperations of the individual.

For example, in a short term scenario I would probably wish to go lone wolf/family. If I had a well stocked bunker under a structure I could make to look already looted and otherwise uninteresting to any negative elements and didnt have to leave for the forseeable future I would also wish to stay lone wolf/family. If I lived remote enough to eliminate most negative concerns and was self sufficient enough to maintain a decent lifestyle I would probably want to stay lone wolf/family. In a longer term scenario where preps ran low or if I got caught with my pants down with no preps in suburbia and I had to create a relatively safe self sufficient lifestyle or the maintanence of that lifestyle exceeded my capabilities than a group is a must.

My 2 cents is enough correct preparations to remain comfortable, informed and discreet enough to weather the initial chaos of a situation until it evens out to a new normal or even gets corrected and then reavaluate whether to band together with some others that have weathered the initial storm. Of course some long term preps to help with that and make me an asset to others would be helpful.

Remember....the best survival tool out there is adaptability. No plan survives contact.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

"There are a great many on this forum I think would be perfect for a MAG but the key phrase is "I Think" they would be perfect. I really don't know them, just the image they project. They are not being false but my perception may not be who they are in reality."

And this is the "problem" in a nutshell....we all know what WE would do if the SHTF and it came to pulling the trigger. We DO NOT KNOW what "they neighbor" is gonna do! I can visualize a small, rural community pulling this off, with strong leadership (an iron fist actually), but (there's that infamous "but," again), I'm not about to bet my LIFE on it....I'll stick to being a loner! Yeah, I know, I'm a hardhead, but I ain't got decades left on this earth, and whatever time I have, I wanna LIVE THROUGH IT, if the shtf! :brickwall:


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Crackbottom....you said, "If I had a well stocked bunker under a structure I could make to look already looted and otherwise uninteresting to any negative elements and didnt have to leave for the forseeable future I would also wish to stay lone wolf/family."

Ummmm, if the "negative element" is looking at your "already looted" bunker, they're already way, way, too close! (And unless you're a vewy, vewy, qwiet wabbit, they are DEFINITELY too close!!)


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Caribou said:


> I would love to be part of a MAG. The reality is that I do not live close enough to anyone that is capable and that I trust that much. The ones that are likely to show up will be of little assistance at least as far as security goes.
> 
> I would rather live where I have friends and family that I can rely on but the wife wants to live near her friends. They are a bunch of liberals and wouldn't protect themselves.


Understand completely. Only one son and his family are MAG material. Other family members are liberals and don't even own a gun, much less know how or when to use one. The "Tin Hat Home" is for the son that does prep and is retiring form the US Navy next year. He hopes to join Border / Customs and is currently getting his military instructors certificate and also attending Jr. College to get his AA in Criminal Justice and Corrections. A double AA. Off subject but very proud of son.

The quality of MAG members requires a tremendous amount of knowledge of the MAG members and that is only accomplished through many years of close association (Family), maybe a few very long term friends.

I lived in too many places and do not have any long term friends. My one son and his family are the only people I plan to include in the "Tin Hat Home". My son hopes his brother and his family wakes up and can get to the BOL but I am not betting on it.

The "Tin Hat Home" project is meant to be a family retreat for the future and will be locked up in a trust that prohibits it ever being sold. If no family members wish to live in the house, it will be secured and closed up until a family member moves into it.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

Pessimistic2 said:


> Crackbottom....you said, "If I had a well stocked bunker under a structure I could make to look already looted and otherwise uninteresting to any negative elements and didnt have to leave for the forseeable future I would also wish to stay lone wolf/family."
> 
> Ummmm, if the "negative element" is looking at your "already looted" bunker, they're already way, way, too close! (And unless you're a vewy, vewy, qwiet wabbit, they are DEFINITELY too close!!)


I was referring to the structure above the hidden and concealed bunker looking looted. Kind of a hiding in plain site concept. While it would certainly be close for comfort there are some merits to the idea. Besides the point for me though. A hidden bunker under my suburban dwelling is probably not going to be in my budget or capabilities anytime soon. Just throwing out a scenario where I would want to lone wolf it for the short term. Given a choice Id take making it to a remote, well stocked bol any day.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

I would also love to be part of a mag. Problem is I have too much baggage in the form of useless family I wouldnt be comfortable leaving to their own devices. Maybe useless is a strong word but when you really get down to it the term is probably accurate. I love my wife beyond measure but if we had to shoot move and communicate for any length of time she wouldnt be able to do it. She has health concerns that would make even walking down the road for more than a few miles almost impossible. My parents, while filled with knowledge (my dad being career retired military and my mom who grew up on a rural farm in the boonies of south africa) are in their 70's and have knee and required medication issues. My in laws (who I am blessed to actually love as they are really great) are the same as my folks. Sister and brother in law would be useless as tits on a bull and have young children. My wifes brother and family are the same. The only one I can count on is my brother and family. They are squared away. How can I be part of a mag with those responsibilities I wouldnt ever be comfortable shirking? Cant. I just make plans to be a mag with the family and prepare enough to limit our shortcomings and capitalize on the strengths of each member. Beyond that Im going down with the ship because life without the people I love isnt worth squat anyway. Thats one of the main problems I see with a mag. Every one capable prepared individual comes with several that wouldnt make the cut in most cases.


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## jeager106 (Mar 24, 2017)

In Ohio the County Sheriff is an elected politician. May or may not know
doodle squat about survival, organizing citizens, etc.
Most police chiefs are promoted by taking civil service tests.
Some have zero common sense and may have no education beyond high school.
I had more than 22 years as a police officer, was chief of investigations,
later a shift commander, trained sniper, yadda, yadda, yadda.
I'm prepping for me and mine only.
Being rural I doubt any locals would be interested in organizing.
Small towns and city neighborhoods are best places to organize I'd think.
Your thoughts?
When in police work I organized and ran the neighborhood crime watch
program.
It worked ONLY in upper class neighborhoods where there was almost zero
crime but more goodies to loose.
In "da hood" people didn't give a fat rats pattoot.


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## phideaux (Nov 7, 2015)

jeager106 said:


> I'm prepping for me and mine only.


*That is where I'm at also;
*
When this thing:shtf2:happens...everybody but me and mine , are on their own.

Heck, I don't even like the people in my County, most of them are ugly anyway.

Jim


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

If there ever is an "event" I think most everyone will be loners for awhile anyway. There will be so much strife and chaos that forming any kind of cohesive group would be at the least very difficult. At some point when things settle down then the human norm of grouping together will prevail and eventually you will have governments form again. 
No matter what I could see going through many 'steps' in the process and very likely there would be some 'mishaps' along the way that lead to pauses or backward steps. It certainly would vary widely in different areas. 
Groups would eventually or possibly even immediately form based on something those in the group had in common. Religion would be the most likely common factor but there would maybe be other factors also.


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## jeager106 (Mar 24, 2017)

phideaux said:


> *That is where I'm at also;
> *
> When this thing:shtf2:happens...everybody but me and mine , are on their own.
> 
> ...


"ugly anyway" :rofl::rofl:

And you are right. We can't help those without the foresight to help themselves.

Perhaps some might think preppers are a bit paranoid.
No doubt the snowflakes of the world do.

Wonder something?

I live in the country but in crowded N.E. Ohio.
Will there be a mass exodus of the unprepared, some with ill intent, into the countryside
to perhaps prey on country folks who are obviously outnumbered and might be an army 
of just one?

I've read that the difference between a person of values and a desperate person is
about 5 days without food.
Not good.
I can trap a rabbit but most people don't have a clue.


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## Starcreek (Feb 4, 2015)

You've got to sleep sometime. A lone wolf, unless he is incredibly skilled at survival in the woods, would not last long. Family is a good place to start, and if you have a decent-sized family, maybe that would be enough.

Look around you -- who are your neighbors? What are they like? I'm not talking about whether they're armed to the teeth and have military training; I'm talking about are they honest and resourceful? How do they respond in an emergency, like a flood or tornado? Do they panic or get to work fixing the problem?

If the world went dark -- AT THIS VERY MOMENT -- those are the people you would have to work with.

In my little town, there are only 5 roads in and out, except for the rough country roads only the locals know. We have a structure in place -- police, sheriff, volunteer fire departments, rescue squad, etc. -- that functions pretty well in most emergencies. In other words, they communicate with each other and work together well.

Each community in the county revolves around a central hub -- the community center/volunteer fire department -- and my guess is that if tshtf those "hubs" would become the focal point for each of the outlying communities. Some of them have kitchens, food/clothes closets, playgrounds, wells, etc. One even has its own little lending library and once a week free medical/dental clinics.

Point being, the "structure" for preparedness is already in place. I know a lot of the local cops and firefighters, and they are generally capable, honest, resourceful men and women. I don't doubt that some of them have given thought to the possibility of TEOTWAWKI and what they would do when it happens. I believe some of them (as well as many area residents) have an action plan in the back of their mind as to what they would do.....and precious few would be eating their neighbors.

An important point to consider is this: DO IT NOW. If you "would" have a bunker under your house, why don't you have it already? If you live in an area (up north) where people are not committed to their neighbors, why don't you move? The time to make those adjustments is now. TEOTWAWKI won't send out an alert...it will just happen. What if it happens today?


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## Tacitus (Dec 30, 2012)

CrackbottomLouis said:


> ...I just make plans to be a mag with the family and prepare enough to limit our shortcomings and capitalize on the strengths of each member. Beyond that I'm going down with the ship because life without the people I love isn't worth squat anyway....


We are of like mind, my friend. I couldn't agree more.


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

Where we live when I first moved out here I was at times actually hitting the ground you'd hear firearms all the time and even some explosives going off now and then. 
I called the good ol boy cop and he just grinned spit his tobacco [ not kidding ] and said " a mans gotta get his aim now and then ". Now I'm glad we live in ******* county. We also ' get our aim' and fit right in.

Joined the local firing range and took fire arm safety course with retired Army Ranger. Everyone should have a course like that, imo. Especially women.

So we'd almost have to make it community ,one of those join or be sorry type of things.  Plus almost everyone here knows how to plant, can, some even have their own defibulator, BP cuffs ,etc,. A couple are nurses and one even knows hwo to bring water up from the ground with a spinning wheel axel and a chain.:scratch


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

Tacitus said:


> We are of like mind, my friend. I couldn't agree more.


 Our family ,son military vet and his family live in Tx and rest of family in Ga,. Hubby hunted as a young man and knows how to skin anything.

So we did talk all of them to at least own a gun and daughters and oldest granddaughter we took to firing range, used 9mm,38,and SKS 7mm. Also did some shooting here. I saw lots of dangerous mistakes that were quickly corrected from all of them. Very important to know how to use a weapon can't stress it enough. 
One daughter is a prepper. I tell them to try to keep gas in vehicles in case they have to come here. Who knows where we may all go if we survive.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

CrackbottomLouis said:


> I was referring to the structure above the hidden and concealed bunker looking looted. Kind of a hiding in plain site concept. While it would certainly be close for comfort there are some merits to the idea. Besides the point for me though. A hidden bunker under my suburban dwelling is probably not going to be in my budget or capabilities anytime soon. Just throwing out a scenario where I would want to lone wolf it for the short term. Given a choice Id take making it to a remote, well stocked bol any day.


I have no clue as to what your budget may be, or what you could talk your bank into financing, but you might want to check these out. 
http://www.atlassurvivalshelters.com/aboutus/nbc/corrugated/

They aren't "cheap." On the other hand, you could do like, oh no, I better not say that....ummmm, obtain a set of plans, and DIY if your family/friends can provide the labor, modify the plans to suit yourself. All your "interior" equipment, from generator to microwave, appliances to sheets/blankets can be purchased relatively "cheap," simply by prowling the thrift stores, pawn shops, flea markets, yada, yada, yada. Got a modified one buried under my backyard, damn thing could be rented out as a studio apartment, whole thing was under $11,000....BUT, I had "free labor." The "good news" is I don't worry about tornados, severe t-storms, temporary power outages, etc. The "bad news" is that if a hurricane comes along, I'm 13ft above sea level, and the damn thing would become a submarine in no time flat!


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Jeager106...quoting you, "When in police work I organized and ran the neighborhood crime watch program. It worked ONLY in upper class neighborhoods where there was almost zero crime but more goodies to loose.
In "da hood" people didn't give a fat rats pattoot."

A large part of my "extended family" (one side of it, anyway) is in law enforcement in various capacities/agencies....and they (and I) would agree with you 100%. Time and time again, I've heard, "Law enforcement in the ghettos is a joke. The Black community refuses to cooperate, and without their cooperation, everything we do is just squeezing a pimple on an elephant's a$$. Black crime is totally out of control and has been for decades." You're absolutely correct, works fine in middle/upper class areas, ain't worth a s74t in the 'hood." If the shtf you DO NOT want to be in a middlin' to large urban area!


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

Pessimistic2 said:


> I have no clue as to what your budget may be, or what you could talk your bank into financing, but you might want to check these out.
> http://www.atlassurvivalshelters.com/aboutus/nbc/corrugated/
> 
> They aren't "cheap." On the other hand, you could do like, oh no, I better not say that....ummmm, obtain a set of plans, and DIY if your family/friends can provide the labor, modify the plans to suit yourself. All your "interior" equipment, from generator to microwave, appliances to sheets/blankets can be purchased relatively "cheap," simply by prowling the thrift stores, pawn shops, flea markets, yada, yada, yada. Got a modified one buried under my backyard, damn thing could be rented out as a studio apartment, whole thing was under $11,000....BUT, I had "free labor." The "good news" is I don't worry about tornados, severe t-storms, temporary power outages, etc. The "bad news" is that if a hurricane comes along, I'm 13ft above sea level, and the damn thing would become a submarine in no time flat!


 Made some bad real estate decisions and when we moved here we lived in tents for 6mo. while we built a small house by county codes.
Had to clear property , drill well, install septic,etc, Plus us and the kids cut down 300 trees with chain saws and grandkids piled them up. Now grands are all grown have their own families and 't even visit much and sure don't work except at their jobs at home .


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Jeager106....quoting you, "I live in the country but in crowded N.E. Ohio.
Will there be a mass exodus of the unprepared, some with ill intent, into the countryside
to perhaps prey on country folks who are obviously outnumbered and might be an army 
of just one?"

You talking about the Cleveland/Pittsburgh corridor, or up around Ashtabula in the Cleveland/Erie corridor? Youngstown is an old stomping ground, and NOW I don't think I'd wanna be in the Cleveland/Pittsburgh corridor if the shtf. Up around Ashtabula probably wouldn't be all that great either, but it would be a lot better than the Cleveland/Pittsburgh route! :dunno:


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Starcreek....."Lone wolf" - - you said, "You've got to sleep sometime. A lone wolf, unless he is incredibly skilled at survival in the woods, would not last long. Family is a good place to start, and if you have a decent-sized family, maybe that would be enough." 

If you are going the "lone wolf" route, your rabbit hole needs to be isolated to the point where, (a) No one else has any business being there in the first place, and (b) No one is going to just stumble on your place by accident. MILES isolated. That's about the only way "lone wolf" works WELL, and ya don't lose any sleep! The big problem with this approach is cost.....unless your really into the "primitive life," it gets VERY expensive, even if that cost is spread over a period of years. How many "Preppers" have that kind of a budget? Not many. "Lone wolfing it" in any "urban/city setting" is NOT gonna work, period. MIGHT be feasible if you live in a rural area waaaaay out in the country, but I wouldn't bet my life on it. Lone wolf = isolation, REAL isolation, whether you go "primitive, or otherwise. MOST "Preppers," whether they like it or not, are going to end up in SOME kind of a "group scenario" if the shtf.....and then it's all going to depend on how cohesive that "group" is/remains over time. In my opinion, and it is just my opinion, "Preppers" who are IN any medium/large urban areas are basically pissing in the wind....urban areas would degenerate into chaos so fast it would make your head swim.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

Pessimistic2 said:


> I have no clue as to what your budget may be, or what you could talk your bank into financing, but you might want to check these out.
> http://www.atlassurvivalshelters.com/aboutus/nbc/corrugated/
> 
> They aren't "cheap." On the other hand, you could do like, oh no, I better not say that....ummmm, obtain a set of plans, and DIY if your family/friends can provide the labor, modify the plans to suit yourself. All your "interior" equipment, from generator to microwave, appliances to sheets/blankets can be purchased relatively "cheap," simply by prowling the thrift stores, pawn shops, flea markets, yada, yada, yada. Got a modified one buried under my backyard, damn thing could be rented out as a studio apartment, whole thing was under $11,000....BUT, I had "free labor." The "good news" is I don't worry about tornados, severe t-storms, temporary power outages, etc. The "bad news" is that if a hurricane comes along, I'm 13ft above sea level, and the damn thing would become a submarine in no time flat!


Pessimistic, you have to think outside the box. That is one way to have an underground shelter, but there are others. Many people have used a shovel and pick ax to carve out a hole in the ground, and then used concrete, metal and created a safe place. If you want to hire someone else to do it, it will never be a secret space. Many places relative to the Underground Railroad were created in homes to be able to hide people. There were many hidden rooms during Prohibition. These were not large spaces typically, but with some thought and planning, we could have spaces and places to be right under or accessible from our homes.

I like to watch movies where people had to hide to survive, such as Inglorious Basterds, Defiance... I think if you think you want to survive by hiding, you can create a space now and have hidden entrances.

Yes, there are people that consider such spaces death traps. You have to create tunnels and access points. Think of the tunnels in Vietnam. People were living and hiding right underneath our soldiers.

Lots of work, but it can be done, if you want it and can think ahead.

If you have a basement, consider finding a spot in an exterior wall that could be an access point. (Oops, looks like I didn't finish my sentence or thought!)


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Meerkat said:


> Our family ,son military vet and his family live in Tx and rest of family in Ga,. Hubby hunted as a young man and knows how to skin anything. So we did talk all of them to at least own a gun and daughters and oldest granddaughter we took to firing range, used 9mm,38,and SKS 7mm. Also did some shooting here. I saw lots of dangerous mistakes that were quickly corrected from all of them. Very important to know how to use a weapon can't stress it enough. One daughter is a prepper. I tell them to try to keep gas in vehicles in case they have to come here. Who knows where we may all go if we survive.


EVERYONE who is a Conservative should OWN at least two firearms, and some would argue for three....pistol, rifle, shotgun. (Libs wouldn't know how to use one even if they had one...and probably wouldn't pull the trigger, anyway.) Firearms safety courses should be mandatory. Range time should be mandatory. Keeping them locked/loaded, safety on, should be mandatory. A CCW permit should be in everyone's wallet. And when ya leave the house, the pistol should go with you. OK, so I'm a weee bit "pessimistic," I like it that way, and if I ever happen to be in Booger King when the idiots try to rob it, maybe I can give them a little lesson in manners. Don't look for trouble, but if it comes along, I don't want to be standing there looking stupid while the morons rob & pillage, either. Mr. Browning and I very rarely part company. Don't know as I'd wanna be in Jacksonville if the shtf, but, hey, people live where they live, work where they work, and maybe they have a "retreat" set up, maybe not.....if the shtf ya just gotta be as prepared as you can be, and do what ya gotta do. Not everyone can afford to even HAVE a "retreat" in some other area that might be more conducive to survival. Hell, these days a whole lot of families have to have two or three income earners just to "get by," and their "prepping options" are pretty limited.

Country Boy Can Survive.....good one! I kinda like this one, too:





You have a nice day!:wave:


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

weedygarden said:


> Pessimistic, you have to think outside the box. That is one way to have an underground shelter, but there are others. Many people have used a shovel and pick ax to carve out a hole in the ground, and then used concrete, metal and created a safe place. If you want to hire someone else to do it, it will never be a secret space. Many places relative to the Underground Railroad were created in homes to be able to hide people. There were many hidden rooms during Prohibition. These were not large spaces typically, but with some thought and planning, we could have spaces and places to be right under or accessible from our homes. I like to watch movies where people had to hide to survive, such as Inglorious Basterds, Defiance... I think if you think you want to survive by hiding, you can create a space now and have hidden entrances. Yes, there are people that consider such spaces death traps. You have to create tunnels and access points. Think of the tunnels in Vietnam. People were living and hiding right underneath our soldiers. Lots of work, but it can be done, if you want it and can think ahead. If you have a basement, consider finding a spot in an exterior wall t


What you are saying has merit, I won't argue that at all. If you're IN an urban area, what you're suggesting is likely to be your only option. And for those capable of it, "DIY" is the cheapest way to go, yes, and that's basically what I did with the tornado shelter in my back yard, with a lot of help from a couple relatives/friends....we worked from, uh, "borrowed plans," modified them a weee bit, dug a big hole (yeah, ok, with a rented backhoe), yada, yada, yada. And it WAS a heck of a lot less expensive than buying one from Atlas. But would I want to stay HERE if the shtf? NO! IF the "shtf," me, the dogs, and whatever I can grab to pack in, are heading for the local airport and Mr. Jet Ranger, me, the dogs,and the cargo, are on our way West..PERIOD. On the way, I'd radio my brother (who is already points West), and see if he wanted to load up one of the ancient 47D's and join me...problematic there, since his op is located ON a military base, and he basically works for the alphabet agencies hauling God knows what around the country....so I don't know if he'd "bug out," or not. The point is, what you are talking about is really something to do if you CAN'T go "somewhere else" if the shtf, and you are very limited in options.....if you're stuck in an urban setting, yes, ya just gotta do whatever you can do, I agree with that. And, yes, DIY is a whole lot less expensive than "retail!" I am not a very good example of a "Prepper." Yeah, I know the "basics," and I've been hunting/fishing all my life, I can plant a garden, feed the chickens, and if I got real lucky I could probably handle "canning." But basically I'm a 40+ year office slug (who STILL types about 4 words a minute, and needs "spellcheck" on a regular basis), old as dirt, and I'm not the "primitive" type AT ALL. I like my comfort, I go high tech, I can afford it, and I'm NOT livin' in some basement bunker which would be "overcrowded" with just the dogs and me in it! But that's ME, not the "average prepper," and not one of those who are stuck in an urban/semi-urban setting and have no choice about "where to go." In many ways, the "average prepper" is probably better off than I am, they KNOW how to do stuff....hell, I'd have to follow the instruction manual to know when to PLANT the garden, yada, yada. I'm "book smart," and "practical dumb," so to speak....though I hope I still have enough hunting skills to snag a deer or elk if necessary. (Don't do bad on wild hogs, but the dogs do most of the "work!") Anyway, I'm a p344733r example for anyone else, and if the shtf, maybe I'll be OK in my mountain retreat, maybe I won't be....but that's the way I've got it set up. For "urban/semi-urban prepping," I'm definitely not the best source of info around, I know that.....EVERYBODY in this Forum knows a hell of a lot more about that than I do!!!!

Just my opinion, , but to my way of thinking, which is admittedly about three steps to the right of all-out paranoia, the ONLY way to "guarantee" personal survival is to be SOOOOO FAAAAR out in the boonies/mountains that (1) Shoudn't BE anyone else around, and (2) No one is gonna stumble up on you by accident. (And yes, that creates problems of its own...medical emergencies for one thing, but ANY "plan" has its trade-offs.....just depends on what your willing to "trade-off!) :dunno:


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## jeager106 (Mar 24, 2017)

Cleveland/Pittsburgh.
About 30 miles south of Youngstown.
Y-town was known as "murder capital of the world".
And it was!
Organized crime, mafia if you will.
I've arrested mafia members when I was a cop.
No fear of reprisals.
It's a whole lot less public to buy off a judge then to shoot a cop.
It wasn't always that way but it is now.
Something people need to think about it this:
Organized crime sent male children to college to become lawyers.
Lawyers become prosecutors and judges.
Judges and lawyers become elected politicians.
Getting the picture?
Please NOT ALL lawyers, judges, etc., are related to mafia people.
I knew a very, very, honest judge who was appointed special prosecutor
in an organized crime ring I helped break up.

He was killed.
The case fell apart.

I wore a bullet resistant vest with ballistic armor plate inserts for a while
after the judge was "accidentally" hit by a train.
hmmmmmmmmm??????????
Two weeks later the special prosecutor died in a motorcycle "accident"
on a lonely country road.
In N.E. Ohio. 
In March!
Sure.....................................

I miss almost NOTHING about police work.
Disabled with broken back #4.
3 concussions.
Cracked ribs.
Broken fingers, p.t.s.d. .............and more.

Dang it. I sure get off topic a lot.

Sorry.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

Pessimistic2 said:


> I have no clue as to what your budget may be, or what you could talk your bank into financing, but you might want to check these out.
> http://www.atlassurvivalshelters.com/aboutus/nbc/corrugated/
> 
> They aren't "cheap." On the other hand, you could do like, oh no, I better not say that....ummmm, obtain a set of plans, and DIY if your family/friends can provide the labor, modify the plans to suit yourself. All your "interior" equipment, from generator to microwave, appliances to sheets/blankets can be purchased relatively "cheap," simply by prowling the thrift stores, pawn shops, flea markets, yada, yada, yada. Got a modified one buried under my backyard, damn thing could be rented out as a studio apartment, whole thing was under $11,000....BUT, I had "free labor." The "good news" is I don't worry about tornados, severe t-storms, temporary power outages, etc. The "bad news" is that if a hurricane comes along, I'm 13ft above sea level, and the damn thing would become a submarine in no time flat!


We have to move to make that work. We are aiming towards that goal but it can't happen yet.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

jeager106 said:


> Cleveland/Pittsburgh.
> About 30 miles south of Youngstown.
> Y-town was known as "murder capital of the world".
> And it was!
> ...


East Liverpool maybe?? Right across the river from the infamous Chester/Newell......(Mountaineer Complex)???? Never heard of it!:rofl:
Boy, are you bringing back memories!
Don't know how old you are, but my Grandfather used to own a chunk of the old "Jungle Inn" between Y-Town/Hubbard (back in the 50's) before the Feds closed it down....He was "friends" with the DeNiro family and the Russo family. 
Cousin used to be Police Chief in Hubbard. Cousin's family owned City Ash, and pretty much had all the "trash business" tied up...when they retired, they sold out to BFI. When I set up shop in the real estate/property flipping business, the old "Silver Fox (Eugene Fox)" was my attorney, and the "family attorney" was old man DiBlasio (Henry). I think the Russo's still own a few bars/restaurants around town, but they're not the power they used to be. Hell, I even remember when "Cadillac Charlie" flipped the ignition switch and had a real fatal bang-up experience! Nahhh, I know nothing, NOTHING, you hear me!!!! Strange world, now half my family (well, the half I claim, anyway) are in LE, nary a "line straddler" to be found! 
And yes, we're waaaaay off topic, but maybe the mods will let us slide...:scratch:dunno:


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

No comparison. 
You need to be in a group.
Period.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

BlueZ said:


> No comparison.
> You need to be in a group.
> Period.


BlueZ...You say, no comparison, you need to be in a group? Elaborate, please? Are you talking "overall," or just for those who CAN'T set up an isolated second residence?
Lot of factors come into play here...everything from personal philosophy to budget, family size, whether you CAN bug out or not, your present location (urban/rural), employment....jeeez, I can't even count them all!

Then, for those that are just plain fanatical about "surviving," your "group" scenario depends on a LOT of things YOU can't control, and which could easily result in the "group" degenerating into a mass of confusion ITSELF. For pure survival, there is NOTHING, in my opinion, that beats "lone wolf/isolation," whether on a low-budget "primitive scale," or a high budget "luxury scale."

Having said that, yes, I will admit that MOST "PREPPERS" are going to find themselves in some form of "group scenario," whether they like it, or not, because they just can't swing the "lone wolf/family & isolation" thing. For small town and urban scenarios, you're right....no way can you go it alone.
But for those that CAN swing it, "lone wolf/isolation" is a thousand times better in terms of surviving. JMHO....


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

BlueZ said:


> No comparison.
> You need to be in a group.
> Period.


Blue, you have proven yourself in my eyes on this forum as being someone to listen too. But like everyone our opinions of certain things are colored by your/our personal experiences and opinions. 
In this case we are not talking about rocket science, instead something that has happened throughout history (or at least similar). There have always been loners/small family groups that have survived everywhere on the earth in countless varied conditions. And groups obviously did so too. This leads one to assume that it depends more the individuals involved in either case rather than the fact one is a group and the other is a much smaller number. The leader, I'm guessing, is the primary determining factor. 
Would a tight knit, trained, reasonable group under a single wise but strong commander be a better choice? - Almost certainly. The trouble lies in the leader and the mixed group. 
I'll stick to the loner/family group. If something drastic ever does happen (big IF). And like I said above eventually people Will loosely band together for the betterment of all.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Hind sight has proven that groups are a nightmare, a community would be a lot better choice. All the PAW fiction about the military style group thriving is just fiction, military action relies on supply chain.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Tirediron said:


> Hind sight has proven that groups are a nightmare, a community would be a lot better choice. All the PAW fiction about the military style group thriving is just fiction, military action relies on supply chain.


In reading your post, it came to mind that in some of MY posts, I may have given the wrong impression.....saying "group," when, in fact, "small community" is actually what I meant. You are correct, a "group," no matter how well organized at first, unless led by an iron fist, is probably no going to last long. Personality clashes are gonna come up, and unless that iron fisted leader smashes the flies RIGHT NOW, it would quickly degenerate into "every man for himself."

A small "community"," on the other hand, while there is still the potential for personality clashes, provides a LOT more in the way of "peer pressure (greater numbers of peers)," and the small communities I have lived in are actually pretty well organized...everybody knows everybody, they're friends with the Police Chief, Fire Chief, Rescue/Paramedic Squads, etc., and "cooperation" pretty much comes naturally. Much better "logistics," too.
With a little effort, many small communities could literally become self-sufficient over the long haul. A small group, not so much, especially in urban areas...what are THEY gonna do when all those MREs in the basement run out? I think, just my opinion, that small groups in "rural" areas are gonna run afoul of the rest of their own community...."Oh, you're too good for us, huh," that sort of thing.

I'm gonna have to be more careful how I use those terms,"group/small community." :wave:


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Pessimistic2 said:


> In reading your post, it came to mind that in some of MY posts, I may have given the wrong impression.....saying "group," when, in fact, "small community" is actually what I meant. You are correct, a "group," no matter how well organized at first, unless led by an iron fist, is probably no going to last long. Personality clashes are gonna come up, and unless that iron fisted leader smashes the flies RIGHT NOW, it would quickly degenerate into "every man for himself."
> 
> A small "community"," on the other hand, while there is still the potential for personality clashes, provides a LOT more in the way of "peer pressure (greater numbers of peers)," and the small communities I have lived in are actually pretty well organized...everybody knows everybody, they're friends with the Police Chief, Fire Chief, Rescue/Paramedic Squads, etc., and "cooperation" pretty much comes naturally. Much better "logistics," too.
> With a little effort, many small communities could literally become self-sufficient over the long haul. A small group, not so much, especially in urban areas...what are THEY gonna do when all those MREs in the basement run out? I think, just my opinion, that small groups in "rural" areas are gonna run afoul of the rest of their own community...."Oh, you're too good for us, huh," that sort of thing.
> ...


I think in animal terms. The pack is going to suffer or thrive based on the Alpha. The herd continues base on the numbers all moving together.

Since I do not know enough 'HERD PEOPLE" and I most certainly will not trust the "PACK" people, LONE WOLF / FAMILY it is going to be the plan. Each plan has pro & Con and everybody will make the choice and literately will live or die with that choice.


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## SewingMachine (Mar 26, 2017)

I have lived all over, and gre up very rural.

IMO, - group.

Why? Where I work, as you enter the building, there are two large flags. One American, one Gadsden. Look around in the dim light, and you see small clusters of fighting age men, 19 - 50. Mostly tattoo'd, bearded, scruffy, belt knives, shifty eyes. It's a rough looking crowd. A lot of drug use and alcoholism. These guys are "east enders" and live, like me, paycheck to paycheck. A few of us are "preppers" or survivalists or whathaveyou. The rest are bandits in waiting. They don't care about me, or you, and even if they can hunt and fish and forage (they mostly can and do) they will see the "lights out" as an opportunity. Believe me, lol, I know them well, I have been around folks like them all my life. I am one! Just nicer.

And the thing is, they are already a group! They work together now, and they would work together to come to the "west end" where I live, and clean us out. First thing. My condo building parking lot is full of new cars. Some beemers. A Hummer. I'm the only gun owner I'm aware of. We are easy pickings. If the people in the condo building had to be my group, then I am sunk. Nice people, but totally ready fro tomorrow to be just like today, if you get my meaning.

But the guys in state housing, and the guys in the mobile home parks with a habit and 3 kids and a wife? They wouldn't even need to "form" a group. They are already formed, and IMO, would love nothing better than an event that removes authority.

I don't have a group. Just me, armed and not very dangerous in Liberal Wonderland. 

Wish I had a group.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

tmttactical said:


> I think in animal terms. The pack is going to suffer or thrive based on the Alpha. The herd continues base on the numbers all moving together. Since I do not know enough 'HERD PEOPLE" and I most certainly will not trust the "PACK" people, LONE WOLF / FAMILY it is going to be the plan. Each plan has pro & Con and everybody will make the choice and literately will live or die with that choice.


And there's the rub....."live or die" by your choices. OK, maybe I'm a weee bit fanatical, ultra-paranoid, and about three steps to the Right of Genghis Khan, but I DON'T wanna be stuck in the middle of a "herd," and unless I am the "Alpha," I ain't gonna be in no "pack," either! (And if I was the Alpha, some of those pack members wouldn't fare too well....) You wanna SURVIVE, take yourself/your family, so far out in the boonies/mountains they gotta pump in sunshine! Urban area....NO WAY, period! Small community.....doable, but still carries risks, much too dependent on the "leadership cadre." Waaaaaay out there in "never-to-be-found land," yup, that's me....and the dogs.. 
:2thumb::club::hatsoff:


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Pessimistic2 said:


> And there's the rub....."live or die" by your choices. OK, maybe I'm a weee bit fanatical, ultra-paranoid, and about three steps to the Right of Genghis Khan, but I DON'T wanna be stuck in the middle of a "herd," and unless I am the "Alpha," I ain't gonna be in no "pack," either! (And if I was the Alpha, some of those pack members wouldn't fare too well....) You wanna SURVIVE, take yourself/your family, so far out in the boonies/mountains they gotta pump in sunshine! Urban area....NO WAY, period! Small community.....doable, but still carries risks, much too dependent on the "leadership cadre." Waaaaaay out there in "never-to-be-found land," yup, that's me....and the dogs..
> :2thumb::club::hatsoff:


Pess you say--- OK, maybe I'm a weee bit fanatical, ultra-paranoid, and about three steps to the Right of Genghis Khan.

I think you are almost as paranoid as I am. I don't have the funding to be as isolated as you but the "Tin Hat House" will serve the same purpose. No groups or people other than family living in the" THH" will ever see all of the "THH" (got tired of typing it out each time). Living area only viewed by guests. No other folks will be invited if it HTF. I don't trust anybody but close family and a few of them my need watching, if they arrive after any SHTF event.

Loose Lips and all that but OPSEC is number one. It will be up to my son to maintain the house and systems but we will establish OPSEC and Family Trust to preserve the house. This to be the family 'RETREAT" as you call it but not as hard to find but probably much harder for the golden hoard zombies to ever overrun.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

tmttactical said:


> Pess you say--- OK, maybe I'm a weee bit fanatical, ultra-paranoid, and about three steps to the Right of Genghis Khan.
> I think you are almost as paranoid as I am. I don't have the funding to be as isolated as you but the "Tin Hat House" will serve the same purpose. No groups or people other than family living in the" THH" will ever see all of the "THH" (got tired of typing it out each time). Living area only viewed by guests. No other folks will be invited if it HTF. I don't trust anybody but close family and a few of them my need watching, if they arrive after any SHTF event. Loose Lips and all that but OPSEC is number one. It will be up to my son to maintain the house and systems but we will establish OPSEC and Family Trust to preserve the house. This to be the family 'RETREAT" as you call it but not as hard to find but probably much harder for the golden hoard zombies to ever overrun.


In this day & age, a REAL HEALTHY dose of paranoia is a "good thing!" Ask the three who that nut case Muslim wannabe in Fresno shot today. Paranoid? Yup, Mr. Browning and I very seldom part company. Some poor lady got robbed in the damn Wally World parking lot a couple days ago near here....TWO security "patrols" cruising the parking lot at the time...she called 911 after she was robbed....no suspect yet in custody. Wally World security patrols are a joke. And I shop there....uh, uh, Mr. Browning goes with me. Which reminds me, it's time to start Bo & Lilly on "protection training." (They did darn good on the "drowning," surprised the heck outta me!!!!) I figured they'd both sit there like a couple lumps and just watch the show......boy, was I ever wrong! They each got 1 lb of beef tip steaks tonight. Gotta love 'em!! I didn't realize they were that attached to the kids! :2thumb::trophy1:


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## terri9630 (Jun 2, 2016)

tmttactical said:


> Pess you say--- OK, maybe I'm a weee bit fanatical, ultra-paranoid, and about three steps to the Right of Genghis Khan.
> 
> I think you are almost as paranoid as I am. I don't have the funding to be as isolated as you but the "Tin Hat House" will serve the same purpose. No groups or people other than family living in the" THH" will ever see all of the "THH" (got tired of typing it out each time). Living area only viewed by guests. No other folks will be invited if it HTF. I don't trust anybody but close family and a few of them my need watching, if they arrive after any SHTF event.
> 
> Loose Lips and all that but OPSEC is number one. It will be up to my son to maintain the house and systems but we will establish OPSEC and Family Trust to preserve the house. This to be the family 'RETREAT" as you call it but not as hard to find but probably much harder for the golden hoard zombies to ever overrun.


Once everyone leaves the desert looking for water you will be isolated.


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Pessimistic2 said:


> In this day & age, a REAL HEALTHY dose of paranoia is a "good thing!" Ask the three who that nut case Muslim wannabe in Fresno shot today. Paranoid? Yup, Mr. Browning and I very seldom part company. Some poor lady got robbed in the damn Wally World parking lot a couple days ago near here....TWO security "patrols" cruising the parking lot at the time...she called 911 after she was robbed....no suspect yet in custody. Wally World security patrols are a joke. And I shop there....uh, uh, Mr. Browning goes with me. Which reminds me, it's time to start Bo & Lilly on "protection training." (They did darn good on the "drowning," surprised the heck outta me!!!!) I figured they'd both sit there like a couple lumps and just watch the show......boy, was I ever wrong! They each got 1 lb of beef tip steaks tonight. Gotta love 'em!! I didn't realize they were that attached to the kids! :2thumb::trophy1:


I am budget minded (okay real cheap) so Mr. Canik (TP9 Sa) gets attached to my hip from the minute I pull up my big boy pants, till I go nitey-nite. At home or out in public, it is me and Mr. Canik at all times. At home or at Wally World, the golden Hoard of Zombies are going to get a bang out of my presence.


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

terri9630 said:


> Once everyone leaves the desert looking for water you will be isolated.


That was the plan. They leave, we stay. Everything is concealed from outside view. Even people who have seen the Aquaponic setup, will guess we ran out of water too, along with them. Nobody will know the amount of water stored or where it is stored. Underground (basement equipment rooms, storage rooms and cistern) cost more but have the advantage of ---out of sight - out of mind.

The "GREY MAN" principal. Spelled correctly for our Canadian friend. For the rest of us peasants "GRAY Man". :cheers:


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

terri9630 said:


> Once everyone leaves the desert looking for water you will be isolated.


Though Phoenix is in the middle of the desert there are non-powered water canals that bring in plenty of water to support a large number of people and their large gardens. Of course finding people that would live in harmony there after SHTF would naturally be impossible.


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## terri9630 (Jun 2, 2016)

hiwall said:


> Though Phoenix is in the middle of the desert there are non-powered water canals that bring in plenty of water to support a large number of people and their large gardens. Of course finding people that would live in harmony there after SHTF would naturally be impossible.


That's great for those along the canals, until someone turns off the water and holds it for ransom.


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