# Horse Power



## JoKing (Mar 11, 2012)

Has anyone researched or had experience using a horse/mule to power a generator? I'm an energy junky(mostly in theory,unfortunately) and am constantly trying to think of how to rob potential energy from the laws. Futile but fun. 

I know that a horse powered(I like saying that)generator wouldn't do that but, the concept is the same as saving $200+ by cutting, splitting and seasoning a cord of your own firewood. Even if you don't practice, it's fairly easy math. But, what about using a horse driven turnstile to run a generator with a gearbox or whatever? I will end chapter 1 now lol. Good day.


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## BasecampUSA (Dec 26, 2010)

Here's how
















I have a bean thresher that looks and works just like this one :






You could gear one of these treadmills up to hook to a generator...


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## JoKing (Mar 11, 2012)

Good examples. What about feasibility? If the power company had a buy back program would it pay for the upkeep? I would think that hydro would be the best with the right resources.


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## dunappy (Nov 11, 2008)

Interesting, I've got 4 horses and a mule that I could put to work like that. However the one thing I want to really work on getting is a Pellet processor that will process horse poop into biofuel pellets to burn in a pellet stove. With all my horses, having them poop out my winter heating would be pretty easy if I could actually get it processed in to burnable pellets.


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## JoKing (Mar 11, 2012)

dunappy said:


> Interesting, I've got 4 horses and a mule that I could put to work like that. However the one thing I want to really work on getting is a Pellet processor that will process horse poop into biofuel pellets to burn in a pellet stove. With all my horses, having them poop out my winter heating would be pretty easy if I could actually get it processed in to burnable pellets.


That would be a crappy job but well worth it. You could try rigging a meat grinder/extruded up but I don't know if you could get the pressure that the real machines have, if it matters.

You made me think of making fire logs with it. In India, they pound cow shit into pipes and make pucks out of them for cooking fuel. Tiny pipes would either get you pellets or pipes stuck full of horse puckey lol.


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

Animal powered electricity ... 

When we look at sustainable, off-the-grid communities, the need for farming and animals becomes more and more apparent. But must these animals be a drain on our already finite resources, let alone our time? For thousands of years, we have domesticated our animals for single purposes. Can we use them for more than the most obvious applications?

Your climate and location will be the determining factor on the types of animal that you can raise, but the basic ideas remain the same whether you raise cattle, horses, elk, or moose.
When we look at our forefathers, we can often find useful ideas for how to deal with modern issues. Whether you are raising cows, goats, or elk, you have at your disposal a nearly endless supply of power. Beyond simply strapping your animals to treadmill generators, there are many ways to use their natural tendencies and functions to assist with your energy needs.

more here ...

http://www.offthegridnews.com/2011/07/04/animal-power-generation/


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

I would think a very easy way would be to refit a wagon with a axle from one of the electric cars that generate on braking. That way as you go down hills and stuff and are helping brake anyway you could be chargng a few batteries on board the wagaon. I would supose it could be left in braking mode all the time or at least when on level and the horses aren't being taxed to heavily. Then you can take your power with you on the road. could have a nifty little tool sharpening repair type shop. and have electic to power a few tools even a light welder.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

I only ever thought of the stationary generator, I wouldn't want to attempt the treadmill but have seen horses walking in a circle for hours turning a wheel, looks like a merry go round. One of our wells was drilled that way, ages ago, it would not be too hard to rig that up to a generator, any old gearbox and a pole.
Anyone know what that is called?
But the above posts got me thinking that there is all kinds of pull type machinery around here (is driven by the wheels as it gets pulled by either tractor or horses). They have drive shafts and some even have gear boxes to produce high rpms, it would not be too hard to turn that into a generator. You could turn it on for braking or when the wagon was empty, if you just pulled it behind you could unhitch when you didn't want any extra load.
What do you think?


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## Well_Driller (Jun 3, 2012)

It would work, however if you don't currently have those animals then it would be additional work to care for them and feed them too. You would have to use a DC generator because the speed would not be consistent enough for a steady 60Hz AC voltage to run things. Use DC with a power inverter to solve that problem, but my thoughts are, if we would loose the grid for a very long time, at some point it will become impractical to continue to generate your own power. If your preparing for something to that extent then best to figure out how to get along without it. What's alarming to me is we have become so dependent on electric power that it has altered our society and way of living to the extent that most have forgotten or never learned how things were done before electricity and all our appliances and practically everything needs power to run, that loosing the grid will be completely devastating for the most part. We depend so heavily on it, yet it is pretty delicate right now, and for the most part repairs are only done when it causes a major problem, even though things need a major overhaul. We just had a little issue tonight, power lost to 3,000 or so, i've yet to find out what the cause was, but wide spread for this area and it affected more than what is normally affected when we typically have an outage. My guess is something may have failed.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

I think that is a good point about people thinking they "need" electricity. I don't count on the grid at all, even now.
I went through a phase for awhile not liking electricity and it's effects on society but then I realized that what really bothered me was the "Grid". I would never want to be in a situation where I needed electricity but it is extremely unlikely that we will ever be in a situation where a bit of power is out of reach. 
Electricity, particularly low voltage dc is easy to produce, easy to store, and can be amazingly useful.
Communications are a good example, just a tiny bit of power gives you the ability to instantly communicate with anyone else, over wires or radio waves, we forget how amazing that is.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

JoKing said:


> If the power company had a buy back program would it pay for the upkeep?


Never. The feed for the animals would be tremendously expensive. They need fuel too, ya know! <-That, and the wear and tear on the critters (and machinery) costs something, too.

It is best to use the critter "power" directly, like grain thresher, water pump or something similar. Converting to electricity has too many losses.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

I agree it would never make money or be worth it in a grid tied situation. Am intrigued by the idea mentioned before about braking for instance, with a large wagon in hilly areas like we have you need brakes so even if you had a small generator and kicked it in on the declines you could charge up some batteries without making the animals work at all. With draft animals it is always best imo to have something for them to do on a regular basis, just to keep up with training. Getting animals for this purpose would be too expensive but if you have them anyways it seems very reasonable. We don't buy any feed, of course what we do put up ourselves could get a lot more expensive. But we have animals for a lot of reasons and don't see that changing. We will have at least a milk cow that can pull a cart and now I am thinking why not at least rig up a little generator on that cart?


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

*Andi said:


> "Whether you are raising cows, goats, or elk, you have at your disposal a nearly endless supply of power."


Endless supply of power???? Yeah, right. 
The author obviously does not pay for any hay or feed to make a statement like that. Must also have plenty of free pasture at their disposal 



cowboyhermit said:


> We don't buy any feed, of course what we do put up ourselves could get a lot more expensive.


Yes, even if the grass is available free for the cutting, the labor to make enough/adequate hay is pretty intense. Folks like my grandfather that used to farm with horses spent as much time making sure they had enough hay for the winter, than they did using the horses for other field duties. No free ride.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

There is a tremendous amount of grass that can be had for free in our area, just that most people wont be bothered with it. 100 years ago almost all the hay on our farm used to come from sloughs, that was not only for the horses but also the cattle. Today there are thousands of acres just in our county that people just don't bother with. Have wintered cows entirely on these native grasses and they do great. Not just sloughs but ditches and abandoned yardsites. They also used a lot of straw and crop residue during the winter which is just a byproduct, no stubble burning in these parts.
What intrigues me about this the most though is the wasted energy aspect. If you are going to have livestock, and in particular are going to have any animals capable of pulling something, why not at least have some way to generate power with them. If you are going to pull a cart to town, or into the field and back, why not have available at least one of those crappy on the wheel generators (high maintenance and low efficiency).
Regenerative braking is about as close to a free ride as we can get, sure the generator wears like any power source but there is less wear on the brakes.


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

LincTex said:


> Endless supply of power???? Yeah, right.
> The author obviously does not pay for any hay or feed to make a statement like that. Must also have plenty of free pasture at their disposal


I have watched this work .... My husband has an Amish customer that runs his shop off of 3 horses and a tread mill.

And as a side note: Right now my power bill runs more than the feed bill for my horses.


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## Well_Driller (Jun 3, 2012)

cowboyhermit said:


> I think that is a good point about people thinking they "need" electricity. I don't count on the grid at all, even now.
> I went through a phase for awhile not liking electricity and it's effects on society but then I realized that what really bothered me was the "Grid". I would never want to be in a situation where I needed electricity but it is extremely unlikely that we will ever be in a situation where a bit of power is out of reach.
> Electricity, particularly low voltage dc is easy to produce, easy to store, and can be amazingly useful.
> Communications are a good example, just a tiny bit of power gives you the ability to instantly communicate with anyone else, over wires or radio waves, we forget how amazing that is.


I agree, I don't have to use it, but since it is available i'll use it until it is no longer available then i'll go to other power sources for the machine shop. I was thinking though, the only thing I would really miss not having electricity is being able to just flip the switch for lights.... You're also right about communications, I have a large portable solar panel, I built a variable voltage regulator so I can use it to run anything battery powered that the panel is big enough to run from .5 to 15 volts. Use that with a little CW transceiver and you have a very small simple way to communicate, and you can find other power sources for those little CW transceivers too, but you need to know CW to use it....


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

cowboyhermit said:


> why not have available at least one of those "on the wheel generators" or regenerative braking


It isn't a bad idea. You could modify an inertial trailer brake controller (non hydraulic) to regulate the field strength of the rotor. You would need batteries that can accept a very fast charge though (nothing sealed).



*Andi said:


> And as a side note: Right now my power bill runs more than the feed bill for my horses.


I don't live near you, but I am willing to bet that you don't harness your "team" and make them WORK every day, either.

Most horse owners go ride once in a while (which burns *some* calories, but isn't really "work" to a horse), but 95% of the time the horses are just standing around looking "Pretty" as expensive pasture ornaments. This is truthful for 99+% of all current horse owners in the United States.

The difference of calorie requirements between a "working team" horse and "pasture ornament/occasional ride" horse is TREMENDOUS. Take your pleasure horses and strap them to a treadmill and make them WORK everyday, and find out how much more they will eat. I am thinking somewhere around three times as much more. If you increase the size of your horse (get rid of the quarter horse and buy a draught horse) watch your feed costs SOAR!!


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## smaj100 (Oct 17, 2012)

You can convert all manner of poop into fuel for one thing or another, be it methane, heating or what not. In regards to the tiny bit of power that is very true, look back to the early days of army field phones (ta-312) some wire and a hand crank and we are back to switchboard days but would have some form of communication within a community.

I like the idea of rigging a generator with some gearing up to get the right speed to charge batteries while using the horses to pull the wagons. I don't think my girls would mind pulling a wagon, but they hate walking in circles.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

smaj100 said:


> I don't think my girls would mind pulling a wagon, but they hate walking in circles.


Boring boring boring work.....


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

LincTex, That would be one bet that you would not win.

Sorry.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Was just thinking about the efficiency of draft animals, know I saw stuff about it before but where these things go I have no idea. Found an older resource and tried to do a little figuring.
http://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PNAAM876.pdf
What I got is that conservatively for cows and horses about 10% gross efficiency, which includes walking and resting, not not far off from internal combustion.
Brome is going for like 3.5cents per pound (here).
If you were to use regenerative braking, or just were going to town anyways it would be a fraction.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

*Andi said:


> LincTex, That would be one bet that you would not win.


You _regularly_ harness your horses and pull them frequently? (daily or near daily)?

A large horse doing heavy work needs over 30,000+ calories a day. 
What exactly do you have your horses doing? 
How many of them actually "work"? What type of work?
What do you pay for feed where you live?


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

LincTex said:


> You _regularly_ harness your horses and pull them frequently? (daily or near daily)?
> 
> Yes or saddle to ride.
> 
> ...


My husband has worked and trained our horses for over 30 years. But to be honest no matter what I tell you ... you will think different. But that is alright, to each their own. 

Folks have been working with animal power for more than a few years now.  If you can't see that ...


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

If anyone is interested I just did some figuring on how the economics work. I am actually really surprised because I thought it would be a lot less economical. I hate dealing with calories because some sources use "nutritional" instead of calling them kcal.
So two ways to figure it out. 
First is using numbers like Linctex mentioned, actually should be kcal but is often done this way, maintenance feed for a horse is 15000 calories(kcal), 30000 for heavy work. Mixed grass hay has about 1000 calories(kcal), oats has 1300calories(kcal).
For the first 15000 calories it will take 15lbs of hay at $0.035/lb so $0.52
second 15000 can be from more expensive oats at $0.07/lb so $0.80

That gives us a total of $1.32/day or $0.80 for the work that a horse can do in a whole day, that doesn't buy a liter of gas.

Second way is efficiency of the pdf I mentioned before, 10% gross being the worst number (25% was demonstrated?). 
1lb of hay=1mcalx10%=100 000calories of work=0.1163kwh, hay at $0.035/lb= $0.30/kwh of draft power (includes resting time)

But if you were going somewhere with the animals anyways, and had a generator to charge up a battery while you went there, the economics would be a lot more favorable than I had thought possible.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

*Andi said:


> But to be honest no matter what I tell you ... you will think different.


No..... I just don't think you are being honest with your true costs.

A GOOD horse that works hard and is put to use every day in Texas will cost a fairly decent amount, with ALL expenses figured in. I am "assuming" at this point you are not considering all of your long term expenses, and things you have bought long ago (30 years) that you would NOT be able to buy today for similar prices. That's all. Land, building, tack, etc are all really expensive for someone starting out. But even a lot of older stuff wears out and needs money to keep up in good condition, so that costs too.

The same goes for anything inherited or given as a gift (land, buildings, tack, etc) - - - someone else may not be able to duplicate the same scenario, and would have to pay a lot extra. That just is not a fair comparison.

It isn't fair to someone else on this board who is genuinely interested, yet is getting a false sense of how much the true cost of getting into owning and using a work horse (and living that lifestyle) really is.

I also would really like to limit this discussion to team horses only. I know you and your husband can go rope calves and pull a log, but that isn't constant pulling work, all day long - like a true team does, or a "true" work horse does (in my book)....
I am talking the "horse equivalent" of a semi-truck (pure work), not like someone who drives a "dually" pickup daily (like a car) and pulls a trailer "once in a while" (like 98% of people in Texas do - I hate that). I also hate people that buy duallys to pull a two or three horse trailer...sigh. (Because to them it is just about "image") But now I am off topic. But it often applies to horse owners, to them its just about image. They don't use their horses to make their living.

True team/work/pulling horses also need a lot of maintenance when not in work "season", like during the winter. You have to keep finding stuff for them to do AFTER the crop is planted, or after the harvest is over, for example - both to keep them from getting bored, and also to keep their muscles in shape. So, when you are adding costs, you have to not just look at what the horse ate "that one day only" that the major work was being done, you have to add all 365 days together to determine real cost. They cost you money - daily - even when they are not earning their keep.

Also, from an economics standpoint, you have to pay yourself something for your time when doing the numbers. People love to fudge this area because "it is a labor of love" most of the time, but in places (and times) when luxury time is scare and comes at a premium (1800's), you WILL have to account for your time, and if you make a living farming with a team that means you are up at 4AM and to bed late as well.

There is a damn good reason farmers bought tractors 80 years ago, and it was because it was a HARD life making a living with horses!! It if was THAT easy (or that cheap to do), more people would be doing it today.


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

LincTex, 

Thanks for your view ... And as I said you and I will agree to disagree. But that is alight, we are different people with different views.

As for being fair to someone else on this board ... come on ... This board is full of folks and their interest. I would hope most of them would do a little research before getting a horse, a wind mill or a solar system. For that matter, I would hope most would do some checking before they go out and get 1000 MRE packs.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

I would just like to say that the reason I came to these forums is for other points of view and experiences. I have my own opinions and ideas but sometimes a topic like this will make me reconsider the viability of things that I just haven't thought much about.
I know how much it costs to keep animals in our area, our family has been doing it for over 100 years on this particular property, and I have in depth knowledge of others experience as well. Our family did not stop using horses 80 years ago, we got tractors and gasoline motors but horses remained a part all along. The reason a lot of farms started using tractors is the same reason some people drive duallies, image. It was the common belief at the time that horses were the peasants means of doing work (oxen were much worse) and a tractor was more "civilized". At the same time they were covering up all these beautiful log buildings with siding because log cabins were for poor people. 
This is not to say that motors did not allow a lot less physical effort, that is a fact, and some switched to tractors when they were no longer physically able to do things as they always did, there was a lot less help on the farm as well because this coincided with cheap food policies etc causing a lot of young people to move to cities. The price of fuel was also extremely inexpensive.
I know that some neighbors spend thousands of dollars to keep horses, and that is fine but it doesn't mean it is necessary.
I don't know how cheaply I could keep a horse in Texas but weren't there wild horses there as well?
The figures I gave above are the highest I would pay for hay and oats, that is what I sell it for at a profit, and that is using the calorie requirements Linctex provided.
The point linctex makes about needing to work a horse regularily is my point as well, if you feel you have to exercise and train them why not have a way for them to produce something useful while they are at it.

People want to just focus on that image they have in their head. The traditional image of a team of work horses is quite an expensive proposition, albeit capable of a tremendous amount of work. Much more within the reach of a small family or group is a single or pair of working animals, with a third as a spare. One horse can pull a lot, a big tree, or a cart full of people, so can a milk cow. 
The cost of a cow is easier for me because it depends less on the owner. There are feet of snow on the ground here right now, will be until about may, don't know if it is particularly easy here to keep animals. Here it costs less that $500 to keep a cow all year, that is not using the cheap or free sources of hay I mentioned, that is at the price we would sell to make a profit, and that is raising a calf.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

I sure have enjoyed this discussion!

There is a "commune" of folks that farm strictly with horses not too far away called Homestead Heritage http://www.homesteadheritage.com/
Someday when I am need of a motorcycle trip I am going to go visit them and talk about the pros and cons of current day team ownership. The last I was actively involved with talking to team owners was about 15 years ago, and it seemed to me the amount of labor and cost of farming with a "team" was a surprising amount. now that diesel is $4 a gallon (Eeeek!) there have got to be a lot of folks looking into this option again.

Interesting seminars.... http://www.homesteadcraftfair.com/seminars.html


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

cowboyhermit said:


> The price of fuel was also extremely inexpensive.


When the oil fields and refineries in Texas really hit their stride in the 1930's and 40's, you could buy "distillate" fuel (a refinery waste product) for tractors (that were equipped to run on it) for 4 cents a gallon!!! (basically just a handling charge).

A lot of older tractors in this area of Texas were set up for propane, because back then propane was also 100% waste product with no market, and was free to those that could haul/handle it.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Wow, even with inflation you can really see how hard it would have been to justify keeping draft animals, especially considering the wars and urbanization, etc.
Interesting that what is making me switch away from fossil fuels is in part the same motivation they had, wood is free for me, just haul it, and so is grass up to a point, though I realize not everyone is quite in the same position.
I will probably be using fossil fuels for the foreseeable future but just like those farmers with propane tractors I am considering the pro's and cons of each for different situations and trying not to get locked into one way of thinking. 
Just a quick example, up here electricity is not cheap and for heating natural gas is Much more affordable, but mention to any farmer that he should consider switching his stock tanks or water fountains to gas and you will be met with blank stares. Same farmer would never consider heating his house with power, a lot of these things are just mindset and if the cost is not too much to bear are not even thought about. Yeah water tanks can be hard to keep open, -33 with wind chill last night.


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

cowboyhermit, You made me smile ... 

We have a draft mare that will keep the water trough open. She has done it from day one as a 6 mo. old, the first winter we had her. (but I can only remember -20s ) Still kind of grand knowing the horses water is open. 

They are very cool critters (and smart).


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