# The basics of EMP



## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

Okay, I'll admit I've kinda glossed over the threat of an EMP attack/natural disaster, but now I'm interested in prepping for it. I want to know what we know for a fact will happen, what is likely but not proven to happen, & worst case senerio. How do you prep specifically for EMP? Please type slowly & don't get technical (it's above my paygrade ).


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## SouthCentralUS (Nov 11, 2012)

What....we....know....for...a...fact....We....won't....have....any....electricity.

Slow....enough?

Jokes aside. I am worried about it also.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

It's not my pet issue, someone will likely come along with a concise breakdown but I will give a few highlights I have seen asked often.

Batteries not connected to anything will be fine (99.99%)

Antenna connected to it = kaboom (with a very few exceptions such as possibly vacuum tubes, specially hardened equipment, etc)

Connected to the grid = very good chance of kaboom

Power grid or similar looong cables = big kaboom

Anything in a sealed metal box, insulated from touching the metal = fine (99%)

Tinfoil hat = optional but recommended.

All numbers are purely fictitious but still likely much more accurate that our local supercomputer generated weather forecast.


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

EMP is a threat to : The power grid and computer systems.

it is not a significant threat to your red dot optics and contrary to popular myth it is _not_ expected to bust the ECU of a non running car/truck .

A running car truck may stop and may then be restarted. Only a small fraction of car/truck ECUs will be actually destroyed "fried".
(though this by itself may be enough to cause traffic jams that will basically never end because if say 10% of all cars are broke on the road the jams will be so bad that after a couple days most folks will abandon their vehicles and take their keys with them.)
And many of them will never make it back.

Why ? because EMI has broadly similar effects (tho much less) and your cars electronics are hardened against the EMI generated by ever stronger alternators through the lifetime of the car.

I wrote much much more on this elsewhere on this forum a year ago and dont want to regurgitate it all so that's the cliffnotes version.


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## Tacitus (Dec 30, 2012)

BlueZ said:


> EMP is a threat to : The power grid and computer systems.


Agreed.



BlueZ said:


> it is not a significant threat to your red dot optics and contrary to popular myth it is _not_ expected to bust the ECU of a non running car/truck .


This cannot be stated as fact. It is opinion. I don't see any difference between microcontrollers in cars and micrprocessors in computers. I believe they will be affected in the same way. There is differing opinion on this, so we should probably express our statements as exactly that: opinion.



BlueZ said:


> A running car truck may stop and may then be restarted. Only a small fraction of car/truck ECUs will be actually destroyed "fried". ... Why ? because EMI has broadly similar effects (tho much less) and your cars electronics are hardened against the EMI generated by ever stronger alternators through the lifetime of the car.


We disagree on this. I believe much more hardening is required to defend against EMP. I hope I am wrong; and, I hope you are right. But, rather than get in this fight again, perhaps we should just state to the OP that reasonable minds can disagree on this point. After all, neither one of us can test our theories because of the test ban treaty. The OP should know that there are different levels of unknown risk. Losing the electrical grid and computers is very bad. Losing our ability to deliver food and medicine around the country by tractor-trailer, and losing the ability to use large scale farm equipment would be nothing less than totally devastating. The OP can decide which level of risk he will design his preps for. [Edit to note that I just now looked (after posting) to see who the OP was. Sorry, tsrwivey!]


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## Tacitus (Dec 30, 2012)

tsrwivey said:


> I want to know what we know for a fact will happen,


Electrical grid will be disrupted. Replacement parts will likely have to imported from other countries. Many replacement parts will have to manufactured after the event. Getting the grid back up will take years. This will affect things like ability to refrigerate food...ability to make medicines and provide medical care...abilty to purify water at a municipal level.



tsrwivey said:


> what is likely but not proven to happen, & worst case senerio.


An EMP could be a partial EMP, by the way. Some examples with a US focus: It could, for example, just knock out the Eastern Seaboard. We could continue to exist as a nation, even though severely handicapped. If it were a large, high-altitude EMP, or if multiple EMP devices were used on both coasts and the midwest, then the United States could cease to exist as a country. Other nations may have to step in to fill the power vacuum.

I believe it is likely that we would lose our transportation network. That is the basis for One Second After. Others don't believe it would be that dire. You could treat that as your worst case scenario:

No help coming for maybe a year or more.
No filtered water for over a year.
No food deliveries for over a year.
No medicine deliveries for over a year.
No communications with the outside world (e.g., with the next state over).



tsrwivey said:


> How do you prep specifically for EMP?


Lots of food, medicine, and water filtration/purification capability...everything you need to be independent for at least a year. And self defense. Local governments will, unfortunately, fail (or be co-opted) in many circumstances. State and national governments may continue but could largely be impotent.


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

So, my old tube comms equipment should be ok ifin it ain't hooked up ta power er a antenna then?

Thin bein, I still use it so don't wanna box it up all the time.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

Weaponized man made EMP = bad news.

Everything except the hardened stuff will be gone and the lights will take 5-10years to come back on. EMP weapons have the one benefit of being a weapon meant to be deployed by one country against another ergo limited effected area. Meaning your allies could be left in a position to provide aid!

Natural EMP = crap shoot.

Because there are so many factors and by its very nature it is an accident it could be major or minor... How minor, Canada got hit by a solar storm some year back and the grid went down for a few days.

How major? Potentially a global Carrington effect with everything going down, globally...this means a half century long technological dark age.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

OldCootHillbilly said:


> So, my old tube comms equipment should be ok ifin it ain't hooked up ta power er a antenna then?
> 
> Thin bein, I still use it so don't wanna box it up all the time.


Maybe... The only sure way to protect electronics is a Faraday cage, well constructed. In 1859 the Carrington Effect was observed to cause fires in equipment that wasn't powered on. Circuits are the most susceptible but anything with metal in it could take a charge an cause damage.


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

So, ifin I make a plywood box ta store my stuff in, cover that with sheet metal, solder all the pieces tagether, make sure the lid makes good contact with them side an is sealed well then connect all this with a good ground, my stuff should be safe right?


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## Tacitus (Dec 30, 2012)

OldCootHillbilly said:


> So, ifin I make a plywood box ta store my stuff in, cover that with sheet metal, solder all the pieces tagether, make sure the lid makes good contact with them side an is sealed well then connect all this with a good ground, my stuff should be safe right?


Theoretically, such a box would protect anything inside it from electrical field fluctuations.

Regarding the ground: I don't think it is necessary, but I also don't think it would hurt. But, that is debated by different "experts". Some feel it is necessary. Others feel the grounding cable would just act like an antenna and make the Faraday Cage less effective. I think a Faraday Cage is a Faraday Cage, regardless of whether it is grounded. We are not talking about a typical high voltage level to ground voltage level current flow, so grounding is of uncertain benefit in my opinion.


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

So, are radio antenna's an coax cable goin ta survive this, or are they gonna be destroyed? Lets say fer example a cb (er ham) radio base station antenna.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Simple antennas on their own should be fine, it would take a phenomenal amount of energy to fry one. The large the antenna and the longer the cable run the more risk there will be however. 100ft of cable could build up a substantial charge.

With regards to the Faraday cage, nothing is 100% when dealing with these types of incidents, this leads to much disagreement on what is "adequate".


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

An EMP is a high voltage electrical charge that sends a surge through any electrical circuit. Take your twelve volt light and plug it into the wall socket, this will produce a similar effect. These can be caused by a solar flare or by a nuclear bomb. As chips get smaller and the connections thinner it takes a lower voltage to fry the circuit.

If your car does stop, disconnect the battery, wait a bit for the computer to reset, then reattach the battery. This may work on some cars and not on others, there are too many variables to make any flat statement. For the five minutes it takes to try this fix it is worth the time to try it. 

I keep spare electronic parts for my heating system in old cookie tins (faraday cages). These are in their cardboard boxes to provide insulation from the surge. Some people do this with automotive parts. Small faraday cages should not be grounded. Room size and larger faraday cages might benefit from grounding but this requires someone with a bit of skill because it grounding is done improperly the ground can act as an antenna.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Having just been though Hurricane Sandy, I can tell you that if the grid goes down you will not be able to refill our car for awhile, so while the fiction of cars stalling out may not be true, transportation will be disrupted by lack of fuel.

Personally, I see EMP as a side effect of a nuclear exchange and as nuclear proliferation occurs (Iran) the odds someone will use them goes up. As a result, you may need fallout protection and other resources beyond the fictional accounts of EMP by itself.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

Reading all the postings, I have come to the conclusion that we will have to see what happens in a real attack. There are some agreements, but all in all everyone has a different take on what will happen.

I'm not an expert on EMP, all I know is what I have read.

Here is something that no one talks about. A foreign government or terrorist group would attack the US in multiple locations and separated by time. The attack would come and then another weeks later or a month later. What this will do is to put a permanent stop to any repair that was in-process. So if we are attacked, I would be prepared to wait it out before I get my stored Faraday Gage parts out to start fixing the car or what ever else you have parts for.

BTW I used to build radio transmitter remote terminals for cell phones. These terminals are Faraday Gages, only they kept the radio signals inside, and prevented the signals from escaping. They were made of .125 aluminum, all seams welded with no voids. The one door was aluminum and had special conductive seals on the door made of a brass/copper material. These boxes were required to be ground to be effective. These terminals had to pass FCC requirements.


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## helicopter5472 (Feb 25, 2013)

What about buried equipment underground, say you have a bunker underground covered say with 4 feet of earth will this be protection enough?
What about outside generators, the kind that are already in covered metal boxes? 
Would or does disconnecting the battery from any device help or hinder it's life, like cars/trucks to led flashlights?


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

The pulse will travel along conductors, and the ability to travel down a conductor is a function of the wave length of the pulse. So a break in the conductor helps. This is why you see advice like disconnecting an antenna or a battery.

People have done a variety of experiments, mostly not scientific, to see what would work. Generally, they have found that protection reduces the impact and that if you have multiple layers of Faraday cage it will cut down the pulse at each layer.

For your generator example, I would think the metal box would provide one layer of protection, but whether it would be enough is impossible to say without a test. Personally, I bought a set of the electrical parts of my generator when I bought the generator and put them in a cardboard lined ammo can. I would hope that being 4 feet underground would be enough, but again you would need a test to really know.

Since nobody is going to set one of these off for testing purposes, testing is a bit difficult. You do the best you can and hope for the best if we ever get hit with one of these.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Being nothing but an old farm boy, I heard that EMP was 'line-of-sight' that is why they must be detonated way up in the air to cover bigger areas. So if you live in a valley between high mountains you might be protected to some extant.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Probably the best automotive EMP defence other than a designed hardening would be to make sure that you heater/ac fan is always turned on to absorb some of the stray energy, same with a computer reset by disconnecting the battery a full drain is best accomplished when the fan is set to low, theoretical it shouldn't make a difference, but in real practice it does.


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## Country Living (Dec 15, 2009)

tsrwivey said:


> Okay, I'll admit I've kinda glossed over the threat of an EMP attack/natural disaster, but now I'm interested in prepping for it. I want to know what we know for a fact will happen, what is likely but not proven to happen, & worst case senerio. How do you prep specifically for EMP? Please type slowly & don't get technical (it's above my paygrade ).


I'm going to answer this from a different perspective. In our disaster preparedness plan a long-term grid down situation is, at this time, our worst case scenario. The core of our plans is to make sure we have food, potable water, septic/sanitation, and protection.


We have two propane tanks. One tank is our primary and the other tank is our emergency backup tank. We call for a fill when our primary reaches 50% and our backup never gets below 75%. We will fill our backup to 85% and then draw it down to 75%. We have a residential generator that's used for short-term power outages. In case of a long-term outage, we would not use the big generator and this would give us a few years of propane for our appliances.
We put an inline manual (Bison) pump in our water well. We can pump directly into the holding tank or out the spigot on the manual pump. (Water)
We have a Berkey in case we need to use water from the lake. (Water)
We added a leach line to our aerobic septic system. (Septic / Sanitation)
Food storage, to include canning and dehydrating, is a must. You simply cannot have too many canning jars. Right now we're working on adapting a bicycle pump to make a manual jar vacuum sealer. (Food storage / Food safety)
Non-GMO Heirloom seeds and a place for a garden. (Food)
We changed out the electric stove to a propane stove. (Safe food preparation)
We have a small flock of chickens and have at least six months of chicken feed on hand at all times. They free-range which helps with pest control and fertilization.
Dogs are vaccinated and we have two years of heartworm meds on hand at all times. We have a year's worth of dog food on hand at all times.
We have a 19cf propane refrigerator. (Safe food storage)
In addition to food, we have lots of sanitary supplies such as soap and toilet paper along with tooth brushes, floss, and toothpaste on hand. (Septic / Sanitation)
We have a way to wash and dry clothes as well as take showers and to wash dishes. (Sanitation)
We use a wood stove to heat the house - and we have at least three years of cut wood on hand at all times. (Life/Safety)
We have extra boots, socks, etc. (Life/Safety)
We each have two years of our critical life-medications and lots of OTC meds.(Life/Safety)
Guns are within easy reach. (Protection)
For a long time I would pick up ammo whenever I went to Wal-Mart. I still check during every visit and hope one day ammo won't be so sparse. (Protection)
If the power goes out and we feel we're in an extended power situation, we have already discussed the contents of the freezer: what to can, what to dehydrate, and what foods to use immediately. We have two canners we can use on the propane stove to expedite canning. Lots and lots of canning jars and extra lids.
We have a Sun Oven for baking and dehydrating.
We live out in the country. 
We have one set of like-minded neighbors.
The most important part of our plan is we're in sync. It wouldn't work if one of us hid our head in the sand.

What you see in the above list is a small snapshot of our thought processes. We like redundancy. We're missing a ham radio in our plan. Until we are educated enough to know what to get we're waiting on that purchase.

Hopefully this will get you started on your plan.


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## Tacitus (Dec 30, 2012)

Personal opinions follow...


helicopter5472 said:


> What about buried equipment underground, say you have a bunker underground covered say with 4 feet of earth will this be protection enough?


Should be very well protected.


helicopter5472 said:


> What about outside generators, the kind that are already in covered metal boxes?


Does the box have ventilation holes? May not be protected. Is the generator connected to anything else via a conductor? If so, it may not be protected. But, a metal box is better than nothing.


helicopter5472 said:


> Would or does disconnecting the battery from any device help or hinder it's life, like cars/trucks to led flashlights?


LEDs will likely fail if they are not in a Faraday cage. Thus, I try to have regular flashlights as well as LED flashlights. Regular (resistor) lights should be unaffected.

Connecting or disconnecting the battery is irrelevant to the effects of the EMP.

Again, just my opinion based on past technical training and a little reading on the topic I did years ago. I've tried to do some research on this lately, but I quickly find myself wanting to type stuff into a search engine that I don't want to type. When I get to that point, I just continue in ignorance, assume the worst case, and do the best I can do.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

helicopter5472 said:


> What about buried equipment underground, say you have a bunker underground covered say with 4 feet of earth will this be protection enough?
> What about outside generators, the kind that are already in covered metal boxes?
> Would or does disconnecting the battery from any device help or hinder it's life, like cars/trucks to led flashlights?


Unfortunately the ground does not necessarily offer as much protection as one might assume, for instance in a famous Russian test they accidentally "blew up" an underground power line. It seems to be primarily long conductors that are effected by the components of emp which penetrate the ground though.

The longer the circuit the more at risk it becomes, so unplugging wires of any type (besides possibly ground wires) is going to help. A vehicle that is not running will be at much less risk and a vehicle with cables disconnected would be even less so. imo.


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

Tacitus said:


> Agreed.
> 
> This cannot be stated as fact. It is opinion. I don't see any difference between microcontrollers in cars and micrprocessors in computers. I believe they will be affected in the same way. There is differing opinion on this, so we should probably express our statements as exactly that: opinion.
> 
> We disagree on this. I believe much more hardening is required to defend against EMP. I hope I am wrong; and, I hope you are right. But, rather than get in this fight again, perhaps we should just state to the OP that reasonable minds can disagree on this point. After all, neither one of us can test our theories because of the test ban treaty. The OP should know that there are different levels of unknown risk. Losing the electrical grid and computers is very bad. Losing our ability to deliver food and medicine around the country by tractor-trailer, and losing the ability to use large scale farm equipment would be nothing less than totally devastating. The OP can decide which level of risk he will design his preps for. [Edit to note that I just now looked (after posting) to see who the OP was. Sorry, tsrwivey!]


yes we went over this.

The controllers in cars have been hardened against EMI will yes this MUCH less than EMP but since they are hardened for billions of EMI impulses per year for the life of the vehicle it confers significant hardening against EMP as well.

the must quoted gov't test ( congressional report on EMP) have borne this out.
I spoke IN PERSON for half an hour with one of the authors (he works in the same building I do) and he said "yes your interpretation of the test results is correct"

the loss of ability to deliver food over an area will be the results of nearly eternal traffic jams due to non running street lights and accidents by the occasional vehicle who did get affected and and is now stranded.

I am really concerned for my fellow preppers being mislead into sinking resources into old vehicles that may be ultimately much less reliable and leave them stranded when they need it least.

if you are a prepper drive as new a vehicle as you can possibly afford, the risk of getting stranded in a broken down old truck is much greater than the greatly exaggerated threat of EMP to your ECU


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

While I understand your point about the age of the vehicle, that is also dependent on the condition of the vehicle.

What worries me most is that none of the gas stations around have generators. If the grid goes down, they can't pump.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

BlueZ said:


> yes we went over this.
> 
> The controllers in cars have been hardened against EMI will yes this MUCH less than EMP but since they are hardened for billions of EMI impulses per year for the life of the vehicle it confers significant hardening against EMP as well.
> 
> ...


this may well be one of the dumbest pieces of advice ever new DOES NOT mean reliable or even remotely good value. knowing how to fix things is far more important than owning new mostly Chinese component junk. I could pay cash for a new full load diesel dually tomorrow, no fing way would I waste my money like that.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

I'll speak for myself here. I have a 71 Bronco that's kept in perfect mechanical order. I keep it in reserve and just drive it one time a month. I have all the spare parts to replace or repair any failed component. It only has 102,000 miles on it since new. (I've purchased it in 1975). This vehicle has very few parts that can just break and every one of those parts I have stored away. 

However, by comparison my newest car easily has 7 to 10 times has many parts that can cause it to fail. I could never have all the parts stored away to fix every possibility. BTW the parts are multiples more expensive then the Bronco's.

If I was forced to make the decision which vehicle to have in an emergency situation, I would without any doubt pick the Bronco.

Additional advantages to old Vs new is the weight of the Bronco is 4000 pounds and the even my 98 4X4 is only 3000 pounds. And if I compare pushing power that goes to the Bronco as well. The Bronco has the steel frame rails that extend passed the front of the body and past the rear of the body with hearvy metal bumpers. This vehicle is capable of ramming other vehicles and not break a head or tail light.

I know that alot f the younger preppers think that the newer vehicles are better then the old ones, but in emergency situations the trucks from the 50's,60's, and 70's were much better "Trucks" then the ones built now. If they are kept in good mechanical order they will out preform any of the new trucks.

Sorry to OP for being off subject!


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

As someone who has both, brand new and very old I would have to agree that new is not always the best option. I see problems with new vehicles constantly, on the other hand we have a '66 "3ton" that is 99% original. We have literally fixed almost nothing on it but if it has to be done, no special tools are required and there are just very few parts to fail in the first place. We have NEVER had a new vehicle with so few problems over similar lengths of time.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

OldCootHillbilly said:


> So, ifin I make a plywood box ta store my stuff in, cover that with sheet metal, solder all the pieces tagether, make sure the lid makes good contact with them side an is sealed well then connect all this with a good ground, my stuff should be safe right?


Ifin you do it right. The concept is a completely sealed conductive layer to allow a charge to pass around your electronics, a non-conductive insulator layer, and then your stuff all safe and snug like a bug in a rug in the middle.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

BlueZ said:


> yes we went over this.


Don't get Blue started we have gone around and around on this. Essentially he thinks there is little risk from EMP. EMP is the worst case scenario I think about. I have read the reports and I don't thing they say what blue thinks they say.

HEMP, the weaponized version of this disaster, clearly will take out cars. Blue discounts this as a possibility if I remember our last conversation correctly.

Of course, while man can create the EMP field necessary to brick a car, surely a little old thing like the sun could not.

Love you blue but I still think you are wrong.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Despite the love affair with EMP among fiction writers, I think nuclear war would still be worse. Any idea where the nearest Civil Defense shelter is? Neither do I.

For vehicles I think the difference is whether they stall where they are, or continue until the tanks are empty. It would be nice if the latter so one could avoid the walk home.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

Geek999 said:


> Despite the love affair with EMP among fiction writers, I think nuclear war would still be worse. Any idea where the nearest Civil Defense shelter is? Neither do I.
> 
> For vehicles I think the difference is whether they stall where they are, or continue until the tanks are empty. It would be nice if the latter so one could avoid the walk home.


There is a reason for the love affair, EMP is a worse TEOTWAWKI event than a limited nuclear exchange because HEMP is designed to work over large areas. A limited nuclear exchange is like 9-11, devastating to the city where it happened, but the world goes on, pretty much unchanged. In contrast, all out Thermonuclear war is not a TEOTWAWKI event its a TEOTW event, few would survive, certainly not I sitting here in the blast range of a few targets, and those who survived would be walking dead, either from radiation poisoning or the starvation that will come from nuclear winter. There is a story to tell of people surviving HEMP or Bio-warfare, the story of surviving an all out nuclear exchange is not much of a story, its the story of finding the will to survive when there is no hope...


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

The Civil Defense shelters have pretty much all been dismantled. That happened when the goobernuts abandoned the Civil Defense office an created our beloved home land sec office. None of them around here were really designed for kneclear fellout anywho. Most were only stocked for very short term stays.

I worked in a buildin what had a fallout shelter, we had a barrel a goobernut water an two barrels a goobernut hard candies. That were bout the size a it. I'm sure a couplea decades ago there were more stuff there cause it was kept in a basement room with shelves an such designed fer more stuff. When they pulled the plug they just told us to dispose a whatever was left. I woulda liked to had what was left but it all got tossed out while I was on vacation.

A couplea nearby small towns have tornado shelters, but they stock virtually nothin but maybe a few first aid supples.

Fer disasters both natural an manmade, they now count on local emergency management offices an volunteer groups like our CERT team. Were fortunate that our team be perty well set for most any disaster an yup we got some equipment ta deal with a knewclear problem. So, the just a this post? Best prepare yerself ifin that be what onea yer worries be cause there ain't nobody else gonna do it fer ya. There still be some good plans out there on how ta build a short term shelter, not a bad idear ifin it be a concern. These ain't designed fer long term, a couplea weeks maybe more. After that, life in one gonna suck.

As fer emp, well, it can't hurt ta store my extra stuff in a nice steel box know can it. Vehicles, well I got one what once it starts long as it got fuel it'll run (read that as a old diesel). I just hope we don't need ta worry bout it, but like anythin else, never hurts ta make some preps fer it cause many a them cover so many different fields.

After all that, ifin it boils down ta it's be time ta check out, well I guess there ain't much ta do but hand em the ticket. Man can an most likely will exterminate his self.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

This thread once again affirms my belief that fictional writing has surpassed nonfiction as the "go to" source for information by the general population.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

labotomi said:


> This thread once again affirms my belief that fictional writing has surpassed nonfiction as the "go to" source for information by the general population.


I confess that I thoroughly enjoy apocalyptic fiction, zombies excepted. I seem to find one good idea in each story or book while simultaneously getting some good entertainment.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

labotomi said:


> This thread once again affirms my belief that fictional writing has surpassed nonfiction as the "go to" source for information by the general population.


....................................


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Actually, if modern vehicles do survive an EMP, then it would be handy to have a Hybrid or maybe even an electric car if the grid were down. If you could keep it charged, you could use it as a battery to run other things as well as transportation.

However, if it didn't survive an EMP it would be a pretty useless item.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

Tirediron said:


> OK mr I know the guy who authored the government report, Simple question is this the same government that can't do math?? Ie thinks more debt is how to balance the books.


I'm not the person who made that claim. Moron.

If you want to make snide remarks about something someone says, at least make them to the person who actually said them... otherwise you look silly.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

labotomi said:


> I'm not the person who made that claim. Moron.
> 
> If you want to make snide remarks about something someone says, at least make them to the person who actually said them... otherwise you look silly.


whoops sorry :ignore:


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

TR: I am the one who said it

Whether political drones make bad budget choices based on a mix of political expediency and poor faith does not affect the quality of the US scientific establishment which is still the best in the world.

to make matters complicated most folks dont fully understand results and thier carefully worded caveats it even if itsa relatively uncomplicated study such as our EMP efforts.

the devil is in the details..

I stopped monitoring this thread because I knew spending a lot of time typing up quality information would be a waste, so I made only 1 or 2 posts and then left 
( except for now I guess)

Again as was discussed in the old thread. NO ONE says it wont be a problem for society. 
probably a lethal one...one at that.

BUT in order to aid understanding those of us who deal professionally with this subject sometimes try to explain the nuances and bust some popular myths.

In this case vis-a-vis the car ECU "issue".

It bothers me seeing mislead preppers spend valuable time and money chasing down old jalopies when from a prepping perspective the best vehicle is the most reliable vehicle and that will nearly always be the newest. 

When someone logs on here as an Medical Doctor do people argue with him when he tells them a popular old wives cure is no such thing?
No they dont , but here when labotomi and me try to help and teach a little we get shouted at because folks are happily married to the "knowledge" they "learned " in fiction.

PS:For those reasons I am not monitoring this thread or any of its posts I just got curious and clicked on it when I saw TR posting.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

A few years ago I bought a remanufactured engine for my '87 pickup. I sent the tranny out and had it rebuilt. I put on new tires and a few odds and ends. It was just as reliable as my new vehicle. I sold it a couple years ago and the current owner uses it as a daily driver. If you try to nickel and dime your maintenance then your vehicle will drive you to the poor house. Do your repairs and maintenance properly and timely and most vehicles will last.


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## Tacitus (Dec 30, 2012)

BlueZ: Can you give me one or two examples of hardening techniques used on auto ECUs? 

Are those techniques used on dashboard controllers, or just engine controllers?


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

This whole issue boils down to one thing, for me;

I have heard congressional government estimates which put the restoration of the power grid at a minimum of three to five years, as the transformers used are manufactured in France and take three years to fulfill orders. As mentioned earlier, a span of time that long would create a domino effect which would most likely stretch this into far more than five years. A span that long is going to lead to a serious societal shift. 

The issue of functionality of vehicles is largely moot, at that point.


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## pawpaw (Dec 21, 2011)

Perhaps someone can shoot down my only preps for EMP: These popcorn & cookie tins, widely available for a song in thrift stores after the holidays, are what I store my smaller electronics in. I have small solar panels, led lights, batteries, inverters, volt meters, cb radios, an extra ECU, etc., and even a new GM single wire alternator stored this way.
The tins I have lined with cork sheet inside (widely available in craft stores) and 
this is about all I can think to do to help myself. Can anyone here definitively state that it WON'T help? I ask so that I can come up with a better way, if necessary, including plan B, which would entail collecting old, big microwave ovens with no cords, equally easy to afford.....


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

OldCootHillbilly said:


> The Civil Defense shelters have pretty much all been dismantled. That happened when the goobernuts abandoned the Civil Defense office an created our beloved home land sec office. None of them around here were really designed for kneclear fellout anywho. Most were only stocked for very short term stays.
> 
> I worked in a buildin what had a fallout shelter, we had a barrel a goobernut water an two barrels a goobernut hard candies. That were bout the size a it. I'm sure a couplea decades ago there were more stuff there cause it was kept in a basement room with shelves an such designed fer more stuff. When they pulled the plug they just told us to dispose a whatever was left. I woulda liked to had what was left but it all got tossed out while I was on vacation.
> 
> ...


There are plenty of well stocked shelters that have been built under DHS...they are just not for you and me but for the political nobility and their bureaucratic minions.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

labotomi said:


> This thread once again affirms my belief that fictional writing has surpassed nonfiction as the "go to" source for information by the general population.


We have never experienced EMP used as a weapon in the digital age, and though we have experience weak solar storms since the advent of the microprocessor we have as yet to experience a Carrington level event. So fiction, backed up with science and tests is all we have. But there is science to back a lot of it up. Science, however, is a type of fiction too, its a theory about what effects an event might have containing too many variables to call it any more than a theory.

I am personally of the opinion that preparing for a worse case is never a waste of time. Say SHTF happens and cars still work; but then a snow storm like the one the NE experienced last week cloggs every road...with no organized snow removal essentially all the cars are dead...

Blue suggests that a modern car is better suited to an EMP threat, well I hope that is correct because as I have posted before I drive new cars (one is a hybrid). But even if he were correct and there was no threat from EMP to cars, simpler older cars can be maintained post SHTF. I don't have an EMP proof (all mechanical) vehicle because our climate eats up old vehicles and I have neither the time, money, nor skills to maintain a old car. That being said I have mechanics in my BO group, and they all say new cars will eventually be bricks whether because of EMP or not because they require too many specialized computers to maintain. So...to be truly prepared you probably want to have access to at least a few entirely mechanical vehicles.

Turtle in the long run I agree that it makes little difference whether modern cars work or don't--but my SHTF strategy is based on a likely bug out which will take me a long distance... In which case a working car matters a lot and the absence of one vastly changes you plans


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

pawpaw said:


> Perhaps someone can shoot down my only preps for EMP: These popcorn & cookie tins, widely available for a song in thrift stores after the holidays, are what I store my smaller electronics in. I have small solar panels, led lights, batteries, inverters, volt meters, cb radios, an extra ECU, etc., and even a new GM single wire alternator stored this way.
> The tins I have lined with cork sheet inside (widely available in craft stores) and
> this is about all I can think to do to help myself. Can anyone here definitively state that it WON'T help? I ask so that I can come up with a better way, if necessary, including plan B, which would entail collecting old, big microwave ovens with no cords, equally easy to afford.....


Put a cell phone in it and call it, if the box is shielding the phone from EM radiation the call should not go through...I believe.


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## Jimmy24 (Apr 20, 2011)

tsrwivey said:


> Okay, I'll admit I've kinda glossed over the threat of an EMP attack/natural disaster, but now I'm interested in prepping for it. I want to know what we know for a fact will happen, what is likely but not proven to happen, & worst case senerio. How do you prep specifically for EMP? Please type slowly & don't get technical (it's above my paygrade ).


Here is some reading for you, in case you have not had the chance. You can gather your thoughts after reading...

http://www.history.com/news/a-perfect-solar-superstorm-the-1859-carrington-event

http://www.universetoday.com/100969/this-is-what-can-happen-when-a-cme-hits-earth/

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Russia/TsarBomba.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...t-nuclear-bomb-home-town-Theres-app-that.html

There are a lot of info out there, some pure BS, some un-intentioned BS, some good stuff...sorting through it is the biggie.

Rest assured there are only a very few who actually have actual knowledge of what will happen.

Myself, just planning it to be 1850s again.

Jimmy


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## Tacitus (Dec 30, 2012)

pawpaw said:


> Perhaps someone can shoot down my only preps for EMP: These popcorn & cookie tins...lined with cork sheet inside.... Can anyone here definitively state that it WON'T help?...plan B, which would entail collecting old, big microwave ovens with no cords, equally easy to afford.....


My guess is that solid conductive metal would be more protective than the metal mesh used in microwave oven windows.

The mesh in microwave windows is to block lower frequency microwaves while allowing higher frequency visible light to pass through so you can watch the food cook. I'm thinking that the mesh may not protect against higher frequency EMP pulses which occur at x-ray and gamma frequencies. This is just my guess. See frequency charts below, and this comment from Wikipedia: "Any holes in the shield or mesh must be significantly smaller than the wavelength of the radiation that is being kept out, or the enclosure will not effectively approximate an unbroken conducting surface."


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

Padre said:


> There are plenty of well stocked shelters that have been built under DHS...they are just not for you and me but for the political nobility and their bureaucratic minions.


Yup. Ya know I've always thought, ifin they gotta stay there a long time, I thin there gonna eventually kill each other. Ya can't put that many back stabbin morons in one space fer a lengthy time an not have problems. They can't work with each other in the huge buildins they got now. How in the world they gonna do it ina concrete box? It sorta brings a smile ta my face.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

Padre said:


> ...Blue suggests that a modern car is better suited to an EMP threat, well I hope that is correct because as I have posted before I drive new cars (one is a hybrid). But even if he were correct and there was no threat from EMP to cars, simpler older cars can be maintained post SHTF. I don't have an EMP proof (all mechanical) vehicle because our climate eats up old vehicles and I have neither the time, money, nor skills to maintain a old car. That being said I have mechanics in my BO group, and they all say new cars will eventually be bricks whether because of EMP or not because they require too many specialized computers to maintain. So...to be truly prepared you probably want to have access to at least a few entirely mechanical vehicles.


Excellent information. Plus, you can diagnose problems in non-computerized vehicles with very little (or no!)equipment.

Anyone who believes modern vehicles are more reliable than well kept, pre-computerized, vehicles has never worked as a mechanic in a automotive dealership. Non-computerized vehicles can also be more easily adapted to use non-traditional fuels.

Our personal belief regarding vehicles in a post-SHTF situation is that if you have the only operable vehicle you may as well paint a target on its side. If we had one it would be donated to some local emergency services organization (or hidden until we needed it for an emergency).


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Studies on theory and a questionable government sponsored test aside. ECU s are built to withstand voltages and inputs within a specific narrow range, I have actual field (this $hit really happened) data of the malfunction of a heavy truck ECU (2008 Cat Acert) that was subject to under-overvoltage in a pretty narrow range, low enough that no incandescent bulbs were popped. the unit sent really varied timing and fuel codes to the engine, causing the engine to run erratically and then stop. Seen several failures due to poor grounding during welding on the chassis. Hooking up the battery cables in the wrong polarity and giving a 24 volt spike has killed them. 
Whether ECU s are going to survive an EMP or a purpose built HEMP strike is theory, as to our "experts" saying it will not effect them (cause one talked to an author and the other just leaves veiled fluff comments and name calling.) 
has little bearing because as every one agrees the grid will not withstand a strike. you only need to look at a cold climate ice storm to see what happens at grid failure. 

What ever causes SHTF what ever you buy whether it is a product or service will be compromised to some degree. the more you can do for your self the better. If you have an OBD2 vehicle you need a simple code reader / canceler if you can't get to some one who has one. many times simply cancelling the code (after recording them) will get the unit to run well enough to get you home or at least to relative safety (again actual empirical data, not report theory).


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## Country Living (Dec 15, 2009)

As turtle said, the car discussion eventually become a moot point. Gas stations, as a rule, don't have generators. Even if they did, tanker trucks - most likely - wouldn't be able to get to the gas stations to refill the tanks. Eventually what gas is available would become unstable or you'd run out of it. No gas, no go. 

If you have the only working car or truck in the area, do you really want that bulls-eye on your family? 

It sounds like the car issue has been beat to death. Maybe it's time to get back to the original question of what can you do to prepare your family for survival after a cataclysmic grid failure?


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

Padre said:


> We have never experienced EMP used as a weapon in the digital age, and though we have experience weak solar storms since the advent of the microprocessor we have as yet to experience a Carrington level event.


I hope you as well as others understand the difference in an EMP and a CME. The Carrington event was a CME which will have neglible direct effects upon microprocessor unlike an EMP event.



Padre said:


> So fiction, backed up with science and tests is all we have. But there is science to back a lot of it up.


The science in every fictional EMP story is sketchy at best. A hint of truth exaggerated to the point of sensationalism for the purpose of selling as many books as possible.



Padre said:


> Science, however, is a type of fiction too, its a theory about what effects an event might have containing too many variables to call it any more than a theory.


Sometimes assumptions must be made just as they are in just about every aspect of life. They're made with the intent of approximating real life conditions that may sometimes differ for the purpose of minimizing the number of variables when doing analysis.



Padre said:


> I am personally of the opinion that preparing for a worse case is never a waste of time.


Prepare all you wish but the justification of being prepared never justifies someone spreading false information


Padre said:


> Blue suggests that a modern car is better suited to an EMP threat, well I hope that is correct because as I have posted before I drive new cars (one is a hybrid).


I agree that the threat to modern cars is not as great as some claim, I disagree with Blue about why and have stated why in previous thread. It's not worth repeating as it can be found by searching. There's not been an excessive amount of EMP threads on this forum to cause viewpoints to become lost


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## Tacitus (Dec 30, 2012)

Tacitus said:


> BlueZ: Can you give me one or two examples of hardening techniques used on auto ECUs?
> 
> Are those techniques used on dashboard controllers, or just engine controllers?


Trying to answer my own question....

I'm not a rad-hard specialist, but I was aware of some techniques, so I just did a little "refreshing" of my memory. Here are a few known techniques to make a radiation hardened microcontroller (along with my personal assessment in parentheses as to whether those techniques are used in ECUs):

Physical techniques

Shielding (probably done, but probably ineffective against EMP)
Gallium arsenide instead of silicon (not done)
Bipolar transistors instead of field effect transistors (not done)
Insulated substrates (possible?...but the technology is relatively rare/expensive)

Logical design techniques

Error correcting memory (possible)
Redundancy (possible in memory; unlikely for functional circuitry)

I also wonder how many microcontrollers are necessary to start and run a car. I suspect more than just an ECU. If non-ECU controllers don't work after an EMP, then it may be irrelevant that the ECU works because it happened to be "semi-hardened."

Unless I learn something else, I suppose I will continue to operate on the assumption that it is a risk that I will not have vehicles after an EMP...and be pleasantly surprised if my cars work.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Tacitus said:


> Trying to answer my own question....
> 
> I'm not a rad-hard specialist, but I was aware of some techniques, so I just did a little "refreshing" of my memory. Here are a few known techniques to make a radiation hardened microcontroller (along with my personal assessment in parentheses as to whether those techniques are used in ECUs):
> 
> ...


I believe that that would be the safest approach, and I also think that other systems outside the ECU/ECM would be prone to over voltage failure, magnetic pickup switches foul from incorrect air gap, so might very well be a weak link.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

labotomi said:


> I hope you as well as others understand the difference in an EMP and a CME. The Carrington event was a CME which will have neglible direct effects upon microprocessor unlike an EMP event.


Yes, E-1 and E-2 pulses are only a factor with EMP, but while E-1 is designed to burn microprocessors, E-3 can have the same effect. Microprocessors are connected to wires, wires which can eat up an E-3 pulse, heat up, and melt. But they are shielded you say! Sure against a bolt of lighting or a momentary surge, but E-3 is remarkable for its intensity and potential longevity.

So, can you tell me the max voltage that we could possibly be talking about? How about the max duration? How about the max voltage most surge suppressors can handle, AND for how long? Not a scientist, but just because E-1 is the pulse that burns microprocessors in an EMP does not mean that anyone has any certainty of the effect of an E-3 pulse during a CME. Thus, despite the fact that EMP from a weapon and EMP from a CME (this is technically a electromagnetic pulse) work in different ways, since no one has ever experienced one of the intensity of the 1859 Carrington Event, I choose to prepare for the two in the same way. Is this unreasonable?


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## HamiltonFelix (Oct 11, 2011)

Just thought I'd mention, the government report is available here:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0615535674...=UTF8&colid=U2RT3WT5IFU4&coliid=I350SDDOPB3UF

So is Peter Vincent Pry's book, "Apocalypse Unknown."
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1482092778...UTF8&colid=U2RT3WT5IFU4&coliid=I29L9F2K9Z7PGH

Like most here, I'm no expert. I have a friend who parked his new VW Passat in a drive behind parents' car. Lightning struck tree next to drive. Both cars dead, towed to dealerships. VW was declared a total, insurance cut him a check for a new car. Parents' GM was repaired after replacing three processors.

Dunno how newer cars will hold up in hard EMP. I like that newer ones like our 2007 Corolla just run and run, with very infrequent maintenance. But I can't always do the maintenance at home.

Older cars want more frequent maintenance, but it can be done at home with basic tools.

Conclusion: Older vehicles are best for those who have more time than money. 
I intend to have a mix of old and new.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

Older cars want more frequent maintenance, but it can be done at home with basic tools.

Conclusion: Older vehicles are best for those who have more time than money. 

I work on old and new cars.

As far as old cars, the maintenance comes down to new points, rotor, cap about every 1/2 year, oil changes, lube serts, and occasional every 2-8 years coolant pumps, fuel pumps, fan belts, wheel bearings, clutch, etc.

Except for the clutch, I can do everything I mentioned in less then an hour.

New cars, whole new ball game, when something is wrong, you have to spend time to find out what went bad and some times that takes hours, and then when the bad part is identified it could take 1/2 day to replace it. If there is an electrical problem, good luck with that.

As soon as i post this, I will be in the shop working an replacing a fuel pressure regulator on my 96 Pontiac, I started last night and should have the part off the engine in the next hour. The part is $65 and I have to have it the new one shipped in. After I get the new part it will take another 3 hours to finish it.

From my eyes, the old vehicles are better in every way then new.


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## Country Living (Dec 15, 2009)

tsrwivey said:


> Okay, I'll admit I've kinda glossed over the threat of an EMP attack/natural disaster, but now I'm interested in prepping for it. I want to know what we know for a fact will happen, what is likely but not proven to happen, & worst case senerio. How do you prep specifically for EMP? Please type slowly & don't get technical (it's above my paygrade ).


Maybe the easiest place for you to start is with your daily routine. This is where you need to decide what is critical, important, or convenient. You need to have redundancy in your critical infrastructure. Plan A is the electricity is on. Plan B is the manual solution. Plan C is redundancy in case Plan B fails. For instance, on our water well - Plan A is electricity runs the pump. Plan B is to use the manual pump. Plan C is to get water from the lake and run it through our Berkey for drinking and cooking water.

Here are a few questions to start the discussion with your family on what to do during an extended power outage. These questions assume you already have your long-term food storage, medical supplies, protection, shelter, etc. in order.

How will you get water for drinking, cooking, and cleaning?
How will you safely prepare meals?
How will you safely preserve food? This not only means canning and dehydrating, include alternatives for refrigeration.
Will your septic system (if not public) continue to work?
How can you stay warm during the winter?
How can you keep the house as cool as possible during the summer (think shade).
Do you have enough oil lamps, oil, and wicks for the family?

You've had some decent power outages this past year. Take what you did during those outages and extrapolate it to "what if" scenarios. Do not forget the temperature in the refrigerator cannot go above 40 degrees or the food risks contamination. As you well know, more people may die after a catastrophic event from lack of potable water and sanitation than during the event.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

Padre said:


> Yes, E-1 and E-2 pulses are only a factor with EMP, but while E-1 is designed to burn microprocessors,


E1 isn't designed for anything. It happens to affect sensitive solid state components because of their susceptibility to higher voltages. 


Padre said:


> E-3 can have the same effect.
> Microprocessors are connected to wires, wires which can eat up an E-3 pulse, heat up, and melt. But they are shielded you say! Sure against a bolt of lighting or a momentary surge, but E-3 is remarkable for its intensity and potential longevity.


I didn't mention shielding Please refrain from erroneous statements.

E3 isn't comparable to E1 IMO. This thread has been mostly about cars so... How many long transmission lines are normally connected to cars? ? With that answer in mind, how susceptible are they to the effects if the E3 component of an EMP? How would they fair in a CME event such as the Carrington event? 


Padre said:


> So, can you tell me the max voltage that we could possibly be talking about? How about the max duration? How about the max voltage most surge suppressors can handle, AND for how long?


 Can you? Do you think that not knowing every detail in a incredibly vast number of variables renders any knowledge useless? What's the max and min temperature for tomorrow? How much precipitation will fall per hour and what's the exact total that will fall?

If you must know. Normal powerline surge suppression would mostly protect against the effects of the E3 component if they haven't already been rendered inoperative due to the E1 component. During a CME, the damage due to this will be much less than during an EMP. 


Padre said:


> Not a scientist, but just because E-1 is the pulse that burns microprocessors in an EMP does not mean that anyone has any certainty of the effect of an E-3 pulse during a CME. Thus, despite the fact that EMP from a weapon and EMP from a CME (this is technically a electromagnetic pulse) work in different ways, since no one has ever experienced one of the intensity of the 1859 Carrington Event, I choose to prepare for the two in the same way. Is this unreasonable?


Again, you fall back on that excuse. I don't care how you prepare. Not one single bit. I don't care about your "prepare for the worst..." philosophy. It still doesn't excuse putting out false or misleading information to others about how they are basically the same.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

labotomi said:


> This thread has been mostly about cars so... How many long transmission lines are normally connected to cars? ? With that answer in mind, how susceptible are they to the effects if the E3 component of an EMP? How would they fair in a CME event such as the Carrington event?


I take your point but in my State tens of thousands of cars are plugged into the grid all winter long. We plug in when we get home and if possible we plug in at work. I've had friends ask if I wanted to plug in my car when I went over to socialize. The remote start allows for an easy alternative for when there is no plug available.

When my last computer died it took all my links with it but if you had some links to share, that supported your opinion, it would be much appreciated.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

Caribou said:


> I take your point but in my State tens of thousands of cars are plugged into the grid all winter long. We plug in when we get home and if possible we plug in at work. I've had friends ask if I wanted to plug in my car when I went over to socialize. The remote start allows for an easy alternative for when there is no plug available.


When my last computer died it took all my links with it but if you had some links to share, that supported your opinion, it would be much appreciated.[/QUOTE]There's always exceptions and I'm not going to play the "what if" game like children do because there's always another "what if"

According to the DOT, there were over 250 Million registered cars in the USA as of 2007. You stated "tens of thousands" which I take as less than 100,000. Even if every car in your state that was plugged in was rendered inoperable, it would have very little effect upon the overall numbers.

It would suck to be one of those affected though. Perhaps it would be better to not plug your car into the grid if you fear that possibility.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

We'd be fine without power for months. We have a well & can operate it manually, we have a septic tank, & we have an in ground pool. We have 13ft ceilings with a dog trot, nice sized porches, & transom windows for cooling & a wood stove, a fireplace, & a replenishable source of firewood for heat. We have plenty of food & other necessities put back for roughly a year (although we are fixin to double the food stores because we've doubled the number of people). 

My main concerns are:

1). growing the quantities of food we would require without the use of the tractor & the tiller. I think we will up our food stores to at least 2-3 years for 12 people. I'm looking into getting some meat rabbits & some dairy goats, possibly chickens too. 

2) getting the kids home if transportation is compromised. The kids spend most of their days about 30 miles from home. At the very least, traffic in town will be ridiculous, and likely come to a halt, without traffic signals.

3) communicating with the offspring about their location & condition, being able to get the local news, & being able to communicate with others via HAMM radio (hubby's dad is a prepper & a radio operator). Our cell phones will likely work?


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

Don't count on yalls cell phones. If (an that be a big if!) they survive the emp, there gonna be so many folks on em yer never gonna get through. We've found that to be the case round here with even small disasters. 

Ham radio, (even cb fer shorter distance) will be a good bet ifin ya had em stored away proper. That be what were plannin fer somea our comms.


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## Country Living (Dec 15, 2009)

tsrwivey said:


> <snip> communicating with the offspring about their location & condition, being able to get the local news, & being able to communicate with others via HAMM radio (hubby's dad is a prepper & a radio operator). Our cell phones will likely work?


Let me know what kind of radio you get. That's one big void in our preps.

It sounds like you have just about everything under control or at least you're going through the thought processes on things that need to be tweaked. It's just a matter of putting them into practice. Good job!


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

Country Living said:


> Let me know what kind of radio you get. That's one big void in our preps.
> 
> It sounds like you have just about everything under control or at least you're going through the thought processes on things that need to be tweaked. It's just a matter of putting them into practice. Good job!


Thank you! There's still A LOT of work to do! The planning is the most important part so I really need to dedicate a good chunk of time to really working things out on paper. I think I'll work on food first, I'm pretty familiar with that.


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## Tacitus (Dec 30, 2012)

tsrwivey said:


> ...I think we will up our food stores to at least 2-3 years for 12 people.


Wow. By one recommendation, that is over 5 tons of grains, and 3/4 tons of legumes/beans. Do you have good sources for that?

[I've seen recommendations ranging from 300-400 pounds of grains per adult per year, and 60 pounds of beans per adult per year. Freeze dried and canning are also options, but they will be more expensive.]



tsrwivey said:


> ...being able to communicate with others via HAMM radio (hubby's dad is a prepper & a radio operator). Our cell phones will likely work?


After EMP, I would count on all cell towers being inoperable for years.

HAM equipment will work only if it was disconnected from antennas and shielded during the EMP.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

tsrwivey said:


> We'd be fine without power for months. We have a well & can operate it manually, we have a septic tank, & we have an in ground pool. We have 13ft ceilings with a dog trot, nice sized porches, & transom windows for cooling & a wood stove, a fireplace, & a replenishable source of firewood for heat. We have plenty of food & other necessities put back for roughly a year (although we are fixin to double the food stores because we've doubled the number of people).
> 
> My main concerns are:
> 
> ...


For 1, I hope you have a lot of storage space. Much as I would like to have that sort of inventory, I would need a place to store it.

For 2, Depending on the age of your kids, you should have a plan of what to do in an emergency. Are they supposed to make their way home or wait for you or meet at an agreed location? Work that out now.

For 3, It is HAM, not HAMM. Cell phones are not reliable now and the towers require the grid. Even if they were unaffected, their backup power is limited. During hurricane Sandy, the cell phones worked for about 8 hours after the storm before the backup power was exhausted. I understand the difficulty of the communication problem, which is why in 2, I said work out your plans in advance. Getting as many people as possible in your group HAM licensed is a good idea.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

According to the DOT, there were over 250 Million registered cars in the USA as of 2007. You stated "tens of thousands" which I take as less than 100,000. Even if every car in your state that was plugged in was rendered inoperable, it would have very little effect upon the overall numbers.

It would suck to be one of those affected though. Perhaps it would be better to not plug your car into the grid if you fear that possibility.[/QUOTE]

I think you missed my point. Hearing an argument that cars were not plugged into the grid I pointed out the error in the argument. Alaska is not the only place that plugs their cars into the grid, any northern State has cold enough weather to warrant such precaution. I'm fairly sure that the Canadians do as well.

You seemingly do not plug your car in so I guess that the loss of a significant number of vehicles means little to you as long as they are in another State. Seriously, unplug my car so as to guarantee that I can't use my car tomorrow?

Look, I think my studies on the subject have been fairly productive. If you have anything for me to check out I am open. Please share some links so we can see where you developed your ideas from.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Caribou, Let's look at the block heater cord, it has 1 hot A/C line and 1 dedicated ground, plus a floating ground potential there is no connection to any part of the chassis except for the ground wire. the hot wire and the ground potential are looped through a resistive heating element, which is immersed in antifreeze, not the best conductor, the ground wire might actually save you, giving a path for voltage to dissipate to the earth. the body of the car either acts as a faraday cage, protecting the electronic circuits or it acts as an antenna to channel high amounts of voltage "backward" through the circuits to fry things.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

Caribou said:


> Seriously, unplug my car so as to guarantee that I can't use my car tomorrow?


You didn't mention that not plugging them in would result in them being unusable and specifically stated that remote starters would suffice. _Either way, you don't have another way of protecting them from your perceived danger of the E3 component of a EMP or a CME in general that doesn't involve unplugging so the suggestion was valid no matter how much you wish to feign horror._

At least with a CME, you'll have some warning that will allow you to choose which way you want to go. Not so much with a EMP.

I've lived in Michigan and northern Maine and there weren't many who went to the trouble of plugging in their cars. It simply wasn't necessary... granted these weren't the coldest states.

Where did I say I was OK with losing these (I maintain "insignificant") number of cars? Is it normal for you to be disingenuous in order to portray someone you perceive as the enemy as the "BAD GUY" or is it something that simply comes naturally to you?


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

inkfight: Can we get back ta the original purpose a this here post? How ta prepare fer emp. We've bickered back an fourth about cars an such quite a bit. How bout we share some information on other stuff so we can all learn about it. Thank you.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

OldCootHillbilly said:


> inkfight: Can we get back ta the original purpose a this here post? How ta prepare fer emp. How bout we share some information on other stuff so we can all learn about it. Thank you.


I feel the simplest solution is to just keep a few spares of the components you feel could/would be affected - - The newer the vehicle, the longer the list of stuff needed.

I have to make note that all mid-90's and newer vehicles start employing anti-theft technologies, like the embedded "chipped" GM keys and the Ford "PATS" system (Chrysler similar?).

In these vehicles, simply swapping a fried ECU with another will *NOT* get you back on the road again, the keys must be programmed to the ECU and few places can do that.

I would stick with early 90's and older vehicles.

I once (in an emergency) had to use an ECU from a '86 5.0 liter Merc Cougar ("speed density" system) in place of the '93 A9L computer ("mass airflow" system) in my Ranger to get home. I had to change a couple wires, and It ran like crap, but it still worked. I couldn't pull the same stunt with '94/'95 and newer models.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

LincTex said:


> I feel the simplest solution is to just keep a few spares of the components you feel could/would be affected - - The newer the vehicle, the longer the list of stuff needed.
> 
> I have to make note that all mid-90's and newer vehicles start employing anti-theft technologies, like the embedded "chipped" GM keys and the Ford "PATS" system (Chrysler similar?).
> 
> ...


Excellent point. What parts beyond a spare key in a Faraday cage, would one need to overcome that particular problem?


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

Might not be a bad idear ta study up some on old order Amish ways. Could be one day we be joinin em in there lifestyle.


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

mike_dippert said:


> Jeep (maybe all of Chysler) has the 'Sentry' system. And it's a colossal PITA. Wranglers had them as early as 03, not sure about older years. Wranglers are probably [one of] the last vehicles to get chipped keys.


That is a fact. Ask me how many times my brand-new 2008 Wrangler wouldn't start due to the Sentry system until you pulled a fuse, disconnected the battery, replaced the fuse, and reconnected the battery. And how many subsequent calls to Chrysler resulted in, "we don't acknowledge any problem like what you have described, so what you are describing probably isn't really happening. Did you insert the key correctly?"

I'm certain that my '03 Wrangler did not have a chipped key. I believe that it started in '04. That year saw a lot of changes before the JK release in '07.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

Tirediron said:


> Caribou, Let's look at the block heater cord, it has 1 hot A/C line and 1 dedicated ground, plus a floating ground potential there is no connection to any part of the chassis except for the ground wire. the hot wire and the ground potential are looped through a resistive heating element, which is immersed in antifreeze, not the best conductor, the ground wire might actually save you, giving a path for voltage to dissipate to the earth. the body of the car either acts as a faraday cage, protecting the electronic circuits or it acts as an antenna to channel high amounts of voltage "backward" through the circuits to fry things.


Thanks Tirediron. Actually I'm not too worried about it but it does bring up some interesting questions. I have read that any cord can act as an antenna. For example, the unplugged cord from the TV can transmit enough energy to fry the TV, by some accounts. Were it plugged in the longer antenna (the grid) would require a lesser EMP to do the same damage. I use a block heater, two sometimes, and a trickle charger. Many around here use an electric battery blanket but I prefer the charger. The body would probably provide significant protection as a faraday cage. The cords might negate some or all of that.

labotomi was trying to chastise one of our members by claiming that cars were not a part of this discussion because they were not plugged into the grid. I was merely pointing out that cars were plugged into the grid. I hadn't even gotten to electric and hybrid cars yet, but don't say anything to him I want it to be a surprise.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

I could see a trickle charger causing problems, because of it's connection to the actual battery. the whole thing is a mystery until an actual event takes place. the TV or any other appliance that is corded is powering circuits ,the block heater is powering a resistive heating element, but it could dump voltage into the ground side of the chassis and cause real mayhem. For those who have never experienced real cold it is just a concept, not a event that they can relate too,


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## Tacitus (Dec 30, 2012)

OldCootHillbilly said:


> Might not be a bad idear ta study up some on old order Amish ways. Could be one day we be joinin em in there lifestyle.


Getting back to the topic of the original post, and as far as preparing for EMP, there are some low tech transportation means one should take into account (if one wants to address the potential worst case scenario of vehicles not working):

Bicycles (or maybe adult sized tricycles)...and
Cycle trailors & side baskets/mounts for carrying supplies and equipment
Cycle repair kits and replacement parts.

Wagons, carts, wheelbarrows, handtrucks
Water transportation means (The topic of my first post ever)

Not to mention hiking boots and backpacks.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

Tacitus said:


> Wow. By one recommendation, that is over 5 tons of grains, and 3/4 tons of legumes/beans. Do you have good sources for that?
> 
> [I've seen recommendations ranging from 300-400 pounds of grains per adult per year, and 60 pounds of beans per adult per year. Freeze dried and canning are also options, but they will be more expensive.].


It's definitely a LOT of food, no doubt. I store food by meal (how much we eat at a sitting plus 25%) so I'm not familiar with how many pounds of this or that it would take to feed everyone. The estimates are kinda interesting though. We store what we eat-eat what we store generally, I think I'll up our stores to a year for 12 people using that method then after that it's beans, pasta & rice with some seasonings after that. In 5 years, we'll be at the river property where hunting is plentiful & we'll have chickens, rabbits, & goats. If TSHTF before then, we're surrounded by neighbors with goats, chickens, hogs, & cows & have stored things to barter with. We can garden year round too so I'm comfortable with my plan. Time to get busy!


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

Country Living said:


> Let me know what kind of radio you get. That's one big void in our preps. !


We're going to try to find an old transistor type radio, if we can. We haven't even started looking yet so I don't know if that's doable or not yet.


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## Tacitus (Dec 30, 2012)

tsrwivey said:


> It's definitely a LOT of food, no doubt. ... In 5 years, we'll be at the river property where hunting is plentiful & we'll have chickens, rabbits, & goats. ... We can garden year round too so I'm comfortable with my plan.


That's awesome.

My long term plans call for some property with a water source (river, spring, well) and some arable land. Right now, I'm not in a position to do that, and I'm not panicked enough to throw out my current lifestyle. So, I just watch for properties and scout surrounding areas so I can snatch up a property when the opportunity presents itself. In the mean time, I've got a like minded relative who can garden a little, but mostly I just store what I can and hope nothing happens.

EMP was always a worst case scenario for me that I couldn't quite totally prepare for because it was so disastrous. But, in chipping away at prepping for lesser events (economic collapse, pandemic) in the past year, and finally being prepared to handle them (I think), I'm now in a much better position with regard to EMP. Water remains the achilles heal.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

Geek999 said:


> For 1, I hope you have a lot of storage space. Much as I would like to have that sort of inventory, I would need a place to store it.
> 
> For 2, Depending on the age of your kids, you should have a plan of what to do in an emergency. Are they supposed to make their way home or wait for you or meet at an agreed location? Work that out now.
> 
> For 3, Cell phones are not reliable... Getting as many people as possible in your group HAM licensed is a good idea.


1) Our house was built when they stored everything in chests & armoires so storage is a constant problem but where there's a will there's a way! If all else fails, we do own a cabinet shop :2thumb: the new house will have an entire room for preps!

2) We have planned for the kids to head home immediately & have mapped out the route they will take depending on their location. That way we will know where to look for them. However, the mom in me would like to have constant contact with them in a SHTF situation. 

3) I know nothing about HAM other than having seen my FILs radios & huge tower. We have one in our group licensed, but would you need a license in a SHTF senerio? Would just a ASIC knowledge of how to work it suffice? Also, I wonder if the airplane's radios would work after an EMP? We have one of those lying around.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

tsrwivey said:


> 1) Our house was built when they stored everything in chests & armoires so storage is a constant problem but where there's a will there's a way! If all else fails, we do own a cabinet shop :2thumb: the new house will have an entire room for preps!
> 
> 2) We have planned for the kids to head home immediately & have mapped out the route they will take depending on their location. That way we will know where to look for them. However, the mom in me would like to have constant contact with them in a SHTF situation.
> 
> 3) I know nothing about HAM other than having seen my FILs radios & huge tower. We have one in our group licensed, but would you need a license in a SHTF senerio? Would just a ASIC knowledge of how to work it suffice? Also, I wonder if the airplane's radios would work after an EMP? We have one of those lying around.


You want licenses for two reasons. 1) the SHTF scenario may be one where you want to communicate, but is not the end of the world. Hurricane Sandy took out all regular communications here for over a week, You want a license for that. 2) you really need to test what you plan to use both to make sure it works and that you know how to use it.

For instance, let's say you want to use a couple 2m HTs to communicate with your child 30 miles away. Will that work? Under the right conditions it should work. However, if you are simply standing in place at each end, the curvature of the earth is enough to interrupt line of sight communications. You need either specific high locations, determined in advance, or accessory antennas for your planned communication to work. You'll never be able to test without at least two licensed individuals, one for each end of the test.

Also, with an EMP, the subject of this thread, the likelihood is that HT at the kids end wasn't in a Faraday cage and just got fried.


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## Tacitus (Dec 30, 2012)

Geek999 said:


> Also, with an EMP, the subject of this thread, the likelihood is that HT at the kids end wasn't in a Faraday cage and just got fried.


Yeah. I guess they would need to carry their HT wrapped in bubble wrap, and then wrapped in aluminum foil...which means they would never use it _except_ in cases of EMP. Gets expensive buying radios you never intend to use, but I thought I would toss that out for those who might consider it.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

Tacitus said:


> That's awesome.
> 
> My long term plans call for some property with a water source (river, spring, well) and some arable land... So, I just watch for properties and scout surrounding areas so I can snatch up a property when the opportunity presents itself.


That's exactly what we were doing when we stumbled upon 20 acres with a well on the river in our ideal area for exactly the amount we had saved, half of what acreage is going for. Keep looking, especially in FSBO listings, just driving around looking & talking to people. Most land around here is sold by word of mouth. Good luck!


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

Tirediron said:


> the block heater is powering a resistive heating element, but it could dump voltage into the ground side of the chassis and cause real mayhem.


That would raise the ground potential of the entire system. The positive would still be 12 or so volts above the new ground. It shouldn't cause any problems.

While in the Navy we checked for grounds on the 450V AC system by connecting 500V DC and measuring the DC current to ground. This was done during normal operation with all the motors, generators and 120V loads operating as usual. It didn't affect the operation of anything because it just operated around the new higher ground potential.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

Caribou said:


> I was merely pointing out that cars were plugged into the grid. I hadn't even gotten to electric and hybrid cars yet, but don't say anything to him I want it to be a surprise.


If you're talking about a plug in heater you shouldn't worry about your car being affected by any portion of the EMP or a CME due to the heater.

Plug-in hybrids make up a very small part of the market. Traditional hybrids won't be affected by a CME. The conductor lengths are too short for high voltages to be induced into. 
If you're prepping for an EMP/CME and driving a hybrid... I think you should reassess your plans.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

labotomi said:


> If you're talking about a plug in heater you shouldn't worry about your car being affected by any portion of the EMP or a CME due to the heater.
> 
> Plug-in hybrids make up a very small part of the market. Traditional hybrids won't be affected by a CME. The conductor lengths are too short for high voltages to be induced into.
> If you're prepping for an EMP/CME and driving a hybrid... I think you should reassess your plans.


I'm not following you. If a traditional Hybrid won't be affected, why do you say you should reassess your plans?


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

Geek999 said:


> I'm not following you. If a traditional Hybrid won't be affected, why do you say you should reassess your plans?


They won't be affected by a CME. There's a high chance they will be affected by an EMP.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

labotomi said:


> They won't be affected by a CME. There's a high chance they will be affected by an EMP.


I understand it now. Thanks.


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## DKRinAK (Nov 21, 2011)

BlueZ said:


> yes we went over this.
> 
> The controllers in cars have been hardened against EMI will yes this MUCH less than EMP but since they are hardened for billions of EMI impulses per year for the life of the vehicle it confers significant hardening against EMP as well.
> 
> ...


If it helps, I watched a T show the other day, where they zapped a ten year old truck several times with 2 mllion volts - it started and drove away. Artificial lightening, pretty cool stuff.


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## Tacitus (Dec 30, 2012)

I've been doing some reading on this since tsrwivey's first post.

Things that make me worry:

Western Politics: Western governments don't appear to be taking this seriously (although perhaps they are without telling us...I can only hope)
Western Tech Trends: Technology is steadily trending towards smaller transistors, with transistor gates that are more and more susceptible to EMP.
Aggressor Capabilities: Low tech, high altitude delivery means may be developed.
Aggressor Attitude: An enemy that _wants_ to start Armageddon will likely succeed.

Things that make me relax:

Nuclear Forensics: The US has nuclear forensics capability, and can allegedly determine the source of weapons based on characteristics of the weapon. That means any nation which used its weapons (or allowed its weapons to be used) would face swift annihilation by the US Navy (at a minimum). That diminishes the likelihood of an EMP attack.
Uncertainty: The uncertainty of the effect of EMP works in our favor. If an attacker cannot be sure it will have a totally destructive effect, while knowing that retaliation would likely be overwhelming (and with very certain destructive effect), then the attacker is less likely to attack.
Aggressor Capabilities (or lack thereof): The _smaller destructive power_ of warheads available to aggressors (so far), coupled with the _larger physical size and weight_ of such warheads, means less catastrophic, deliverable, EMP effects (smaller effective radius, less damage within the effective radius).

Fear of EMP got me started prepping, but I wax and wane in my concern about EMP. Sometimes I am more concerned. Right now, I suppose I consider the possibility of economic collapse, civil unrest or even possibly pandemic to be greater present risks than EMP. But, I think that if I _fully_ prepare for those 3, I will be _substantially_ prepared for a limited EMP attack and comparable natural solar events. I guess my thinking (and my hoping) at the moment is that a full blown "One Second After" EMP risk is a few years away.


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## lilmissy0740 (Mar 7, 2011)

Everyone always says to be on the down low to keep your family safe. What if it is winter, you heat with wood, how do you stay on the down low? Smoke coming out of your chimney, etc.


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## talob (Sep 16, 2009)

lilmissy0740 said:


> Everyone always says to be on the down low to keep your family safe. What if it is winter, you heat with wood, how do you stay on the down low? Smoke coming out of your chimney, etc.


Yup, wonderd about this myself, smoke in winter, animals, garden, solar panels hard to hide and still live over a period of time.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

Live out in the country. Rabbits can be kept inside. Food doesnt have to be grown all together in nice little rows, it can look like landscaping & be scattered around everywhere. That's about all I got!


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Tacitus said:


> EMP was always a worst case scenario for me that I couldn't quite totally prepare for because it was so disastrous.


It shouldn't have to be. Think about some basics you really do NOT want to do without, and then have some spares.

I don't want to be without a vehicle; so I have fuel stored for both my diesel Cummins powered truck, and my gasoline powered H-D Softail.

Although I have a spare alternator for the truck, I don't care too much if it works or not. A Delco 10SI is a really cheap unit to keep as a spare.

I have spare electronic bits to get the Harley running again.

I also have a spare magneto (stored) in an ammo box kept in a shipping container for my Farmall "C" that can be started with a hand crank.

The chainsaws are stored in a shipping container when not used. I haven't got any spare ignition bits for them, yet.

I like to have 12vdc-to-120vac inverters on hand. I lost count how many I have. Quite a few are stored.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

DKRinAK said:


> If it helps, I watched a T show the other day, where they zapped a ten year old truck several times with 2 million volts - it started and drove away. Artificial lightening, pretty cool stuff.


It really isn't the same thing, I believe.


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## Tacitus (Dec 30, 2012)

LincTex said:


> Tacitus said:
> 
> 
> > EMP was always a worst case scenario for me that I couldn't quite totally prepare for because it was so disastrous.
> ...


Understood. I guess I meant a total EMP, along the lines of "One Second After." Such a total EMP would mean no services (e.g., food delivery or water coming out of my faucet) for at least a year, or maybe 2-3 years. That would result in a loss of greater than half of our population in the first year, and some estimate as much as 90%...and all of that would be _indirect casualties_ resulting from starvation, lack of medicine, lack of water, etc. The only disasters worse than that would involve _direct casualties_ (e.g., thermonuclear war, nearby super-volcanic eruption, or an extinction-type asteroid impact)...and I'm not really trying to prepare for those types of direct impact events. So, I consider a total EMP to be one of my worst case scenarios.

Even if I had a car that was fixable, I'm not sure I would be able to keep it in such an event. So, I've been working on non-engine-based options.



LincTex said:


> I don't want to be without a vehicle; so I have fuel stored for both my diesel Cummins powered truck, and my gasoline powered H-D Softail.
> 
> Although I have a spare alternator for the truck, I don't care too much if it works or not. A Delco 10SI is a really cheap unit to keep as a spare.
> 
> ...


Shipping container: not possible given my current situation. I don't know much about engines at all, so I would have to do research to even begin to understand what I would need. And, I have modern cars with several dozen microcontrollers, with no real way of knowing which are key to operation of the vehicle and which are not...I don't think I could buy and store enough spare parts for them. In order to be totally prepared for EMP, I would have to move to a more rural area and replace all my cars. A move (and more sensible cars) is in my long term life plan, not my short term prep plan.

Oh, and did I mention I married a city girl? Far perimeter suburbs is the best I've been able to do. Until a threat becomes obvious and imminent, I won't unilaterally change our family's lifestyle. Would my wife do it if I required it? Probably. But I won't require it. We are a team. I'll just keep working on her for now, until, as I say, the threat becomes obvious and imminent. Admittedly, that may be too late, but we just do what we can.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

I think very few are prepared for everything, particularly something as bad as "One Second After", much as we might like to be. You just want to be in better shape each year than the year before. There's no way you can jump from "I understand the risk" to "I am prepared for the risk" without something in between.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Tacitus said:


> I don't know much about engines at all, so I would have to do research to even begin to understand what I would need.


Get yerself one of these (make sure it has a Briggs & Stratton engine, or a Honda, or Chinese Honda clone):









Buy one of these for your (respective) Briggs engine and store it:









Or if a Honda, one of these:









BAM!!!!

You now have a "post-EMP vehicle" - you can even store it in the attic space in your suburban garage. It'll be easy on gas, too.

You can go high class and drop the coin on a nice Honda dirt bike - buy a spare module and a service manual and you are all set. It isn't rocket science - - - don't let yourself become defeated by the prospect of the project.


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## mellowyellow (Jan 11, 2014)

Read the book "One Second After". Frightening and realistic.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

mellowyellow said:


> Frightening


very



mellowyellow said:


> and realistic.


not so much


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Whether it is realistic or not is why there is so much uncertainty. If an EMP takes down the grid and everything else works, we have a serious problem, but can probably bounce back over time. It is something we can prepare for, with difficulty. If the scenario in One Second After plays out where virtually all vehicles and modern communications are destroyed, we are in much worse shape, recovery becomes much more problematic and preparing is far more difficult.

If you're not an expert, and I am not, it is difficult to determine who to believe on this subject. Unfortunately, I am not ready for even the mildest form of EMP scenario, so I'll just keep prepping.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

Geek999 said:


> Whether it is realistic or not is why there is so much uncertainty. If an EMP takes down the grid and everything else works, we have a serious problem, but can probably bounce back over time. It is something we can prepare for, with difficulty. If the scenario in One Second After plays out where virtually all vehicles and modern communications are destroyed, we are in much worse shape, recovery becomes much more problematic and preparing is far more difficult.
> 
> If you're not an expert, and I am not, it is difficult to determine who to believe on this subject. Unfortunately, I am not ready for even the mildest form of EMP scenario, so I'll just keep prepping.


I'm not an expert on EMP but I do have a good knowledge of electricity and a decent knowledge of nuclear physics. I can recognize that events in the book are greatly exaggerated compared to the conclusions of every fact based study on the subject and with my knowledge of the various aspects. Also, the behavior of the people in the book is written to bring about the most dynamic conflicts for the purpose of increasing entertainment value to make the book profitable.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

For 30 years I worked for the telephone company (AT&T). One of my jobs was take designs that were originated at Bell Labs and then develop a manufacture process /machinery/tooling/wiring/molding/welding/fastening/documentation/costing/etc. You could say that it was their design, but nothing happened without me.

EVERY design that came down from the labs was full of unbuildable designs, so we got together and hash out a new design that would accomplish the same thing. The people at Bell Labs actually wrote the books on telephony. By all accounts they were the "experts" in their fields.

The PHD's that I worked with at Bell Labs were always making mistakes and were always rewriting their books and papers on their disciplines. Experts make mistakes.

Here is the point, when it comes to the safety of my family and myself, I will only have myself to blame if I was told not to prepare for something that an "expert whisperer" says that I don't need to worry about. I listen to my gut and the plan accordingly. In most cases, just a slight redirection in the planning will cover the worst case scenario. If it comes down to spending more money then that has to be factored in. But, it will be by my own planning and my own design.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

Tweto, if your post is directed at me I haven't said you shouldn't do x or y because it's unnecessary. I haven't even started what's inaccurate about the story so exactly how are you taking my post as telling you what actions to take? 

You're debating the accuracy of a fictional book by stating experts aren't always right and adding the old "I prepare for the worst" mantra. 

I'll agree that experts aren't always right but you should know that authors aren't always right. To them accuracy is only good when it doesn't interfere with the story 

Given the choice, I'd go with the advice from an expert over that from the author of a fictional book.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

the whole or at least a large part of the automotive EMP "scare" was started by a report for on of the US gov members more than 20 years ago. I tried to find a link to that report, but it is gone from where I found it. 
labotomi please give a reason why a reverse current surge through an automotive system would not cause problems.
Kept in simple terms. not technical jargon 
here is the scenario. an EMP would release a hi voltage tiny current wave front. Correct ??
If that front contacts a car body that body could act as an antenna to dump the voltage through the cars DC ground circuit, which should at least fry many diodes.


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

Is anyone familiar with this site/effort?

http://www.empactamerica.org/index.php


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## oldasrocks (Jun 30, 2012)

lilmissy0740 said:


> Everyone always says to be on the down low to keep your family safe. What if it is winter, you heat with wood, how do you stay on the down low? Smoke coming out of your chimney, etc.


This is the reason we have everything on propane. You can smell wood burning for miles.
Cost?

The first yr in this house used 700 gallons of propane. I insulated the foundation with spray foam, resided with insulated siding, new metal insulated roof, and added 24 inches of insulation to the attic. Propane use down to 300 gallons a yr. and we keep the house at 73 degrees. I added a 2nd 500 gallon tank and installed a propane heater in the living room. Standby genny is protected.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

Tirediron said:


> labotomi please give a reason why a reverse current surge through an automotive system would not cause problems.
> Kept in simple terms. not technical jargon
> here is the scenario. an EMP would release a hi voltage tiny current wave front. Correct ??
> If that front contacts a car body that body could act as an antenna to dump the voltage through the cars DC ground circuit, which should at least fry many diodes.


I believe this is in response to my reply concerning voltage being "backfed" through the ground wire of a plug in heater... correct?

That's all I was addressing... which is to say the E3 component of an HEMP or the effects of a CME.

A car operates on +12VDC. That means the positive is 12 volts higher than the common. The absolute voltage of the common isn't important, only the 12V difference. If you measure from the car "ground" to an actual earth "ground" you normally would expect it to read 0V difference or at least some very small value. If you were to connect the positive of some other power supply to the ground of the car it would raise the difference in potential between the car ground and earth ground. It would also raise the potential of the positive side of the car circuit by the same amount.

for example. if you hooked up +100Vdc to the chassis ground of a car you would read 100Vdc on your meter from the car ground to earth ground. If you measured from the positive on the car to ground you would read 112Vdc, so the electrical system of the car still has a potential of 12Vdc.

It's similar to a lineman working on a live high voltage line. They electrically connect the bucket to the line and raise it's potential to equal line voltage before working on it. Basically the worker is energized in reference to ground.

The reasons for damage from the E1 component of an HEMP is that it generates an extremely high voltage instantaneous change over very small distances (the high Volts/meter values). Normally a wire will have only a small voltage difference along it's entire length. Due to the E1 component, the same wire can have a very high voltage difference over a short distance. That difference is so short that high currents are insignificant but solid state components such as microprocessors are damaged by the high voltages themselves.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

@ labotomi. I was theorising more on the car body acting as an antenna, but the block heater cord ground especially when pluged in would also count.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

Tirediron said:


> @ labotomi. I was theorising more on the car body acting as an antenna, but the block heater cord ground especially when pluged in would also count.


If you're still talking about the E3 component or a CME, I don't think the car is a long enough conductor for it to induce enough voltage to cause any damage.

We drive through the earths magnetic field all the time. Planes fly through it as well. Both result in relative motion between the field and the cars/planes just as the movement of the field itself results in relative motion. Relative motion is what causes voltage to be induced in a conductor by a magnetic field. I don't think the voltage induced because of driving would be measurable without specialized equipment.


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## Tacitus (Dec 30, 2012)

Tirediron said:


> the whole or at least a large part of the automotive EMP "scare" was started by a report for on of the US gov members more than 20 years ago. I tried to find a link to that report, but it is gone from where I found it.


Is this the one? This commission report came out in 2004.

Commission to Assess the Threat to the United States from Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Attack


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## Coastal (Jun 27, 2013)

Ok, I skipped a lot of this thread. There is tons of talk of Faraday Cages etc out there, and lots of people talk about putting their smart phone in one etc etc.....

If I save my smart phone, or my computer, what is the point if everyone elses is fried, and there is no longer power or a way to connect to whats left of the internet? 

I could see maybe saving a HAM radio, but really what is the point of the other stuff?


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Coastal said:


> Ok, I skipped a lot of this thread. There is tons of talk of Faraday Cages etc out there, and lots of people talk about putting their smart phone in one etc etc.....
> 
> If I save my smart phone, or my computer, what is the point if everyone elses is fried, and there is no longer power or a way to connect to whats left of the internet?
> 
> I could see maybe saving a HAM radio, but really what is the point of the other stuff?


Assuming you have a way to recharge it, you can use it to store a tremendous amount of information. I think a typical Kindle holds about 1500 books. Imagine a prepper library on that.


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## Tacitus (Dec 30, 2012)

Coastal said:


> Ok, I skipped a lot of this thread. There is tons of talk of Faraday Cages etc out there, and lots of people talk about putting their smart phone in one etc etc.....
> 
> If I save my smart phone, or my computer, what is the point if everyone elses is fried, and there is no longer power or a way to connect to whats left of the internet?
> 
> I could see maybe saving a HAM radio, but really what is the point of the other stuff?


Both you and Geek999 have good points.

Cell phones these days are little computers. But, if you don't already have them configured that way, with the information on them, good luck trying to do it during the aftermath. And I hope you have solar or hand-cranked chargers in those Faraday cages as well.

As for me, I put radios in cages, not cell phones...enough to pass around to family members after the fact.

If I'm at the point of relying only on electronics that survived in Faraday cages, then I certainly won't be relying on public infrastructure like cell towers and the Internet.


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## Coastal (Jun 27, 2013)

I'm thinking a giant shipping container faraday stuffed full of important stuff is the way to go. Complete solar system, radios, blender, lol whatever you think you might need. A dirt bike?, Car? From a little research it seems they will do the job if grounded properly and with a bit of work around the doors.


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## ihaveMANHIDE (Oct 6, 2012)

you can build a faraday cage. Which is pretty much a box with styrofoam and tin foil lining the sides. It will keep all of your electronics you keep for prepping, safe from an emp. So you can still have COMs up during chaos and civil unrest


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

I bought one Second After on CD (because my boy isn't much on allowing me to read an actual book) & I am addicted! I'm planning extra trips to town just to listen. Just wanted y'all to know you were to blame for me not getting anything done at home. 

Aside from being very entertaining, it has made me think about some things that I hadn't seriously considered. For instance, we recently bought the 20 acres on the river. We have a well there but considered the river our backup water source as well as a source of food & recreation. The book brought up the point that sick people living by it could contaminate it & be a source of disease for my family.

Another topic it made me think about is securing my animals, not just to keep them contained but to keep others from getting to them in a SHTF scenario.


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## helicopter5472 (Feb 25, 2013)

tsrwivey said:


> I bought one Second After on CD (because my boy isn't much on allowing me to read an actual book) & I am addicted! I'm planning extra trips to town just to listen. Just wanted y'all to know you were to blame for me not getting anything done at home.


I looked on Best Buy for it on DVD didn't see it.. where did you get it and or who is the author?


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

helicopter5472 said:


> I looked on Best Buy for it on DVD didn't see it.. where did you get it and or who is the author?


Iit's not on DVD to the best of my knowledge, I bought the audio book version from amazon. http://www.amazon.com/One-Second-Af..._0_main?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1389629762&sr=1-1 The author is William R. Forstchen. HTH


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