# If SHTF would you join up with others? How many is too many?



## neil-v1 (Jan 22, 2010)

I was wondering if anyone has plans to join forces with others in a SHTF scenario? Is it better to try going it alone with just family and the closest friends? If you would join up, what would be the maximum number of people? Of course supplies have a lot to do with numbers, but I mean if supplies were very good what should be the max number of people? I know skill sets matter as well but I was wondering what most people think. I was thinking the max number may be however many could be of use for security, foraging, growing etc, yet still remain as out of site as possible???

One of my biggest concerns is being able to set up and keep up a good strong perimeter on a security level while being able to keep levels of supplies high enough to maintain a group.


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## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

For me, it depends on the level of SHTF.

Max number of people can be quite a variable. In my situation, I'm thinking 40-50 but that's the # of people NEEDED. What needs to be considered is that each has their immediate and possibly extended families. Obviously, kids are welcome _but you still need to take care of them_ but what concerns me is attempts to bring in extended families.

Of the 40-50 mentioned, I'd start much smaller and watch how it develops. Are there rival groups in the area or do the "clans" get along and work for mutual benefits?


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## Aemilia (May 27, 2010)

I think having several core/family groups that respected each other and could work together when needed would be best. Some kind of alliance, but not constant contact.


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## SurvivalNut (Nov 13, 2008)

Aemilia said:


> I think having several core/family groups that respected each other and could work together when needed would be best. Some kind of alliance, but not constant contact.


I like Aemilia's idea. Dunbar's number Dunbar's number - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is 150 which works for a primitive village, an Army Infantry Company, etc. But carrying capacity (how many people a given piece of land can sustain), guard watches, and work ethic and democratic principles also determine the number.

If everyone wants a vote and majority rules, then half your folk are always PO'd. A governing council may work. Obviously, a family partriarchal group may be more successful than a patchwork group. Likewise a group that assumes patriarchal values may run better.

The security of an area, food availability, and depth of social breakdown all determine the size of the group. Once set, like Aemilia, networking with other similar groups is high on my list.


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

After the dust settles some, i would contact others, out an away from out post. However, I am not plannin on bringin in anybody that isn't already on the list. Who are you goin to trust? What are they after? Food, water, shelter, or do they wan't what you have for there group?

There are huge numbers a folks out there right know what look out fer themselves an nobody else in these times. If it falls apart it's only gonna get worse.

Will mankind survive an rebuild? Ya, I think so, but it's gonna be a long drawin out mess before normalcy returns. I'd trust very few people.


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## knighthawk (Apr 22, 2010)

neil-v1 said:


> I was wondering if anyone has plans to join forces with others in a SHTF scenario? Is it better to try going it alone with just family and the closest friends? If you would join up, what would be the maximum number of people? Of course supplies have a lot to do with numbers, but I mean if supplies were very good what should be the max number of people? I know skill sets matter as well but I was wondering what most people think. I was thinking the max number may be however many could be of use for security, foraging, growing etc, yet still remain as out of site as possible???
> 
> One of my biggest concerns is being able to set up and keep up a good strong perimeter on a security level while being able to keep levels of supplies high enough to maintain a group.


Going it alone.......bad idea. You need a support structure of some sort nearby. Networking with other like-minded people in your area is imperitive. As far as the size of your group, there are many variables that have already been addressed. In my opinion, the utmost factor regarding the size limitations would be stern rules. The more people you have, the more rigid the command structure and rules have to be. The rules and regulations must be adhered to and punishment for violating same must be carried out to the letter, thereby avoiding conflict within the group. Therefore, with regard to size, don't include more than you can govern effectively. Also, the larger the group, the greater the chance of detection by unfriendly forces.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

Even in an extended family situation, where they gather to one location, individual families need to be recongized, and everyone needs space. Our adult children and their kids are part of our family, but they are also a family unit of their own. 

If the SHTF and we end up at the same BOL, those things need to be respected. There will need to be a balance between group rules and codes of living, and family unit rules, etc. Especially in a long-term situation. Certainly at first, survival and safety will be the primary concerns. The biggest problems of compatibility will come later.

There are so many differences and personalities among our family that putting together a successful group will be more of a challenge than selecting a group of compatible preppers to work together after TEOTWAWKI. The kids will want to be part of the group when they're hungry, but assert their independence when it comes to work and responsibilities. They think it'll be a lark to not have to drag themselves to their drudge jobs any more, that it'll be like an idyllic extended camping trip. Hah. Not even close.


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## OldFashionedMama (Jun 18, 2009)

N.E.O.D.F. Web

We'll be meeting up with these guys, at least the ones in my dad's unit. As you can see from the disclaimer (which looks new to me...) there are rival groups we may have to contend with.


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## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

The problem is "NO-ONE" wants to work (most people don't know HOW to work hard manual labor 16 hours a day) & "NO-ONE" is willing to be told what to do. I don't need a bunch of fat/lazy parasites whining and crying because they want it the way it was, HELL most ain't happy now, how much fun will they be if the SHTF. 

Would I like to have team members who could work.......Yes. Do I think there is any chance for finding useful, productive, non-parasitic partners........No.


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## neil-v1 (Jan 22, 2010)

I am with you on that one. I think it would be very hard to trust most if not all in a shtf scenario. If someone does break the rules and had to be expelled, they could provide valuable intel to some other group. I am more on the lines I think of a very small group of near 8 to 10 people. If that even.


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## Freyadog (Jan 27, 2010)

I will be quite honest. The answer to the question for me is NO. As rural as we are there is no one that we know that is prepping. Maybe a few weeks of food is in the pantries but other than that nothing.

Our son and family live in Philly about 8 hours from us however dil's uncle lives 3 hours from them. So they would go to the uncles place. So my husband would on our own.


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## saintsfanbrian (Oct 30, 2008)

The family has a plan. If you are an immediate member of the family you are welcome to come. If you cease to be useful in one form or another while we are in the scenario you will cease to be on the property. Usefulness will be determined by my BIL he is "spearheading" the operation. The rest of us are supplying money, tools, supplies etc.


Oh and you will be given the co-ordinates it is up to you on getting there. We are not waiting for you.


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## neil-v1 (Jan 22, 2010)

I hear ya. I would love to have just immediate family included also, but my sibs live all over the country so that would be hard. I also live in a rural area but it's only about ten miles from a city of 100,000 people, so I think I would have some problems before too long if the shtf. I would need a few others folk's that could maintain a perimeter for security (I think) while everyone else tends to day to day stuff. 

Of course my plan is to move as soon as finances allow to a more remote location but the way the world and our country are going now, who knows?


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

I currently live in a city of over One Million people. It covers a very large area where the north-end could be having a hail-storm with significant damage being done with flooding and the south-end people could be mowin' the lawns and sun-tanning their bodies.

Anywhere that I live that is within "driving distance" of the city for work will be overrun with those who will "run away" from the problems. The only way that I would be able to protect what I own from others who feel that they would be justified in "using" my resources is with the help of a group larger than the groups coming through my new homestead.

Other than that, I would need to be in an area similar to where GypsySue and MosquitoMountainMan live - far enough away from a major center that people would be less likely to locate them if they were just passing by.

My brother has a place like that deep in a valley in the Kootenays of BC, a great BOL 1/2 way between his place and mine, but, it is a nine-hour drive for each of us. Too far for easy, quick access. Oh ya - we barely know the neighbors who live there full-time. I can just imagine what they would be thinking if a few RV's showed up all of a sudden.


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## goose (Jun 12, 2010)

Would I like to have a group? Yes!

I've thought long and hard about A) having a group coalesce around me, or B) having the necessary skills and/or items to make me valuable to a group.

Just 8 or 10 people is not, I don't believe, enough. You need enough for security, to stand watch, and to have enough complementary skills to support each other.

I want a group where we have mutual dependencies, where we rely on each other. That's the best kind of group, IMO.


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## NotSoFast (Jun 9, 2009)

It depends on the scenario.

Is it a small community living is separate housing that is in close proximity? Is it a retreat for a small group?

If it was a small community, that number could vary widely, but at a miinimum I would think 50 is enough to start with. And who knows about the upper limit although I would think that over 100 things would begin to fray and come apart at the edges. Not to mention security concerns.

But 50 gives you a good number that can watch out for each other, help as needed and can still have a decent life within the community for all. That way you can have rotating guards with days off, yet still be able to farm and work without too much inconvenience.

But if it is a retreat, I think 20 at the outside and at least 10 is a good number. Nine gives you three shifts and ten gives you an extra hand to fill in without putting people on 6 on, 6 off shifts if someone gets sick or injured. I think somewhere in the middle, like 12-15 would be best in a retreat situation.


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

I'd be willing to take in any of our kids without any hesitation , but then a person has to weigh all the problems that they can bring on themselves. , so the prepper has to make some hard decisions right from the start.

example, i tell my daughter to come, she's naturally going to bring her husband and invite her kids,(our grandkids) one of her kids in married, the married kid is going to bring his wife and kids. *now all those people who have married into the family have immediate family and friends and they also have family and friends, .* these non preppers and nay sayers can be a real problem down the rd,

there comes a time and it better be soon before prices double and tripple that you have to call a meeting with all the people who may be camping on your door step just to let them know that they better start putting into the pot, that you can't be the prepper for the whole county.

the one fact that i would make clear is that when they're on my land and eating my supplies, i'll give the orders and make the decisions.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

lotsoflead said:


> I'd be willing to take in any of our kids without any hesitation , but then a person has to weigh all the problems that they can bring on themselves. , so the prepper has to make some hard decisions right from the start.
> example, i tell my daughter to come, she's naturally going to bring her husband and invite her kids,(our grandkids) one of her kids in married, the married kid is going to bring his wife and kids. *now all those people who have married into the family have immediate family and friends and they also have family and friends, .* these non preppers and nay sayers can be a real problem down the rd,
> there comes a time and it better be soon before prices double and tripple that you have to call a meeting with all the people who may be camping on your door step just to let them know that they better start putting into the pot, that you can't be the prepper for the whole county.
> 
> ...


Agreed. There can be input but the final decisions belong to my wife and I.


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## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

lotsoflead said:


> the one fact that i would make clear is that when they're on my land and eating my supplies, i'll give the orders and make the decisions.


Till they slit your throat. You better be a very, very strong leader.


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## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

mosquitomountainman said:


> Agreed. There can be input but the final decisions belong to my wife and I.


And how will you enforce your decisions......? Your only the leader till a more powerful, charismatic leader emerges selling how much easier live would be for the rest with NEW younger leadership.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

Sourdough said:


> And how will you enforce your decisions......? Your only the leader till a more powerful, charismatic leader emerges selling how much easier live would be for the rest with NEW younger leadership.


Again, it is a family group. They are our children and grandchildren and we don't expect any problems such as those. Our kids have always been pretty good and we've always stood together as a family when under stress. Knowing them each as we do I can't imagine it ever coming to internal strife of that nature. They each have their skills and contributions to make and are quite level headed. There is room for each family to have individual space as a family and that will be important for everyone. Plus, with the way they were raised I don't think that thought would cross their mind. It's not like a dictatorship where everyone exists for the benefit of the dictator and to serve him. We are a family. We will work together. If someone isn't happy with that arrangement they are perfectly free to take their toys and go away.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

Sourdough, I wouldn't assume that the leader will be someone people would resent or want to overthrow. 

Certainly that sort of thing does and can happen, but it's not a given.


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## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

gypsysue said:


> Sourdough, I wouldn't assume that the leader will be someone people would resent or want to overthrow.
> 
> Certainly that sort of thing does and can happen, but it's not a given.


Life will be 16 to 17 hours a day of hard manual labor. People on these forums and in books and movies miss the massive amount of hard physical labor that will be needed. People think it will be slightly inconvenient, kind of like camping.

Most people have never done a hard days manual labor. The one thing that the book, "One Second After" breached is the amount of suicides, people are delusional about how hard it will be.

It is hard to be the leader, of fat, lazy, hungry, whining, cry-babies, sniveling about having to split firewood and drag logs 16 hours per day, or slaving in the kitchen.

You look at the photos of the real homesteaders in the late1800's and early 1900's. People were skinny, gaunt, eyes sunk in, exhausted, dirty, in rags (And they went willing to that lifestyle).

I got one of the very last Federal Homesteads back in the early 70's, before it closed forever in about 73' and I worked it alone.

People are lazy, and will not follow someone who say's "You have to work, period, no other option, WORK", they will overthrow that leader for anyone who will blow sunshine up there Butt.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

Yes, Sourdough, it will be a lot harder than most people think it will be. I laugh when I hear people say "Oh, if it gets bad, I'll plant a garden!" I can tell you first hand that isn't easy around here in NW Montana! We started with raw land to build up a garden, and even with our lifetime experience in gardening it was and continues to be a challenge.

Nor do people realize how MUCH they'll have to produce. Just one jar of food is 365 in year. How many people times how many jars per day, times how many per year? And where will these "new gardeners" get the jars, lids, canners, etc? I guess there's always dehydrating but that's a BIG project for a year's supply of food. 

Yes, the indigineous people did it, but they were small in numbers, worked hard all their lives, and were taught by their elders. Where does that leave most people today?

All that being said...mosquitomountainman and I live a subistence life. We make enough money from writing magazine articles and so forth to keep the property taxes paid and keep the phone/internet going. We have solar power now but lived for years with no power, and oil lamps for light. We produce 90% of our own food (garden, foraging, fishing, hunting) and the rest is stuff our kids bring up when they visit from town. Their idea, but it's fun to have treats. We could live without them.

We don't work 16 to 17 hours a day. The pioneers didn't work 16 to 17 hours a day. In the evenings they might have sat near the fireplace or stove and worked on mending or casting bullets or whatever, so I guess they were still "working". In the winter time they almost went crazy from boredom. Yeah, some summer days, like at planting time, there can be some long hours put in. In May and the first half of June we can be pretty busy from sun-up to sun-down getting the garden going. This time of year? (July) Go out and see if it needs watering and pull a few weeds. The first things come ripe and I dry or can them. It doesn't get busy until September when I'm doing a lot of drying and canning, but even then it's not even 8 hours in a day. MMM is busy cutting firewood in the fall, mixed in with hunting, but it's not overwhelming in the least. 

We grow a lot of root crops like potatoes and carrots that only need to be dumped in the bins in the root cellar. The onions get bagged in cloth sacks and hung in a closet, the squash get wrapped in towels and put in a cool closet. Just not that hard. 

If our kids and grandkids have to bug-out here, that's more mouths to feed, but more hands to help plant, harvest and process, hunt, fish, cook, clean, mend clothes, etc.

There will be time for fun. There will be time to relax. It will be work but it can also be rewarding.

Maybe a lot of it is in attitude. 

We expect our kids to miss their "town" lives and the internet, and whatever else was part of their "old" lives, and we'll be respectful of each person's individual losses.

But we also hope that we can focus on the good part of survival and being together.

The last Federal homstead when to Norma Cobb in 1973, so you're right about that. I've been told Alaska is "a young man's country". Harsh and lots of work. I admire that you were able to do it alone. But if your attitude is that people are "fat, lazy, hungry, whining, cry-babies, sniveling" then it's a good thing you went it alone. I wouldn't want people like that around me either. Not everyone is like that.

Not all the pictures of "real" homesteaders showed gaunt people in rags. Surely there was plenty of that. 

Just because I live off the land doesn't mean I can look down at everyone else because they hope to survive after this and maybe they're going to have a heck of a lot to learn. I hope I can help those I come into contact with, and not just scorn them because they're clueless city people.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

Times will be different. The fat, lazy bums will starve if they don't contribute or be shot if they try to take by force. Our kids do know what hard work is like but as GS said, our life is not one of drudgery. We have busy times that seem as if they'll never end but they do. We have slow times as well. When the firewood is cut and stored and the garden has been harvested and stored and hunting season is over we have our slack time. Plus, we actually enjoy what we do so the work isn't ... work, that is.

Too many people have never had an opportunity to work on farms or as a family. The work can be hard but can also be fun. I remember many hours in the hayfields when we went swimming afterward to cool off and the times of comaradarie and joking around while working. It's a life many have never experienced and many will actually come to enjoy it. Life is close to us then. We get the benefits of our labor directly. Large portions of our income won't be taken from us by the government and distributed to those "lazy bums." Think about it; I'll bet you wouldn't trade your life for the best paying job on Wall Street. Others will come to feel the same way.


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## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

Gypsysue, I just feel that people on these forums concentrate on Firearms, Camping stoves, Pack packs, etc.. And I feel they would be better served being in very hard physical condition, to perform the rigors of survival. What I don't understand is why some people think life will be easier, living a subsistence lifestyle. Or that they can transition to a subsistence lifestyle based on what they learned on a forum or in a book.

I don't look down on people, I just feel that for most people these forums are just one more source of "Entertainment", in there entertainment saturated lives. And that makes me sad.


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

Sourdough said:


> Till they slit your throat. You better be a very, very strong leader.


 i am a strong leader and have 2 strong sons to back me up, no one will ever have a chance to get all 3 of us in one group at one time. one other thing, anyone who wants to keep eating will have to look out for me as i'm the only who knows where all the preps are, some know where some are, but that's all


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

Sourdough said:


> Gypsysue, I just feel that people on these forums concentrate on Firearms, Camping stoves, Pack packs, etc.. And I feel they would be better served being in very hard physical condition, to perform the rigors of survival. What I don't understand is why some people think life will be easier, living a subsistence lifestyle. Or that they can transition to a subsistence lifestyle based on what they learned on a forum or in a book.
> 
> I don't look down on people, I just feel that for most people these forums are just one more source of "Entertainment", in there entertainment saturated lives. And that makes me sad.


 i feel people should be spending more money on food and medicine, at least 3 yrs worth for six people.if they don't need it, they have some bargining power


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

Sourdough said:


> Gypsysue, I just feel that people on these forums concentrate on Firearms, Camping stoves, Pack packs, etc.. And I feel they would be better served being in very hard physical condition, to perform the rigors of survival. What I don't understand is why some people think life will be easier, living a subsistence lifestyle. Or that they can transition to a subsistence lifestyle based on what they learned on a forum or in a book.
> 
> I don't look down on people, I just feel that for most people these forums are just one more source of "Entertainment", in there entertainment saturated lives. And that makes me sad.


I think a lot of people will be in for a rude awakening if/when TSHTF. All I can say is that they will regret the things they didn't do when the "doing" was easy but life has always been that way. Think of how many pioneers came to Alaska ill prepared. They either learned or died. It will be the same here in an EOTWAWKI situation.

Our motto is that "if you haven't done it you can't do it." It means that reading is not enough. You need to have done it. Ultimately, each person is responsible for their own survival.


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## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

mosquitomountainman said:


> Our motto is that "if you haven't done it you can't do it." It means that reading is not enough. You need to have done it.


That is Good, I am notorious on another Forum for my constantly saying: "Boots in the Field" which is the same thing.


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## Emerald (Jun 14, 2010)

I am not sure if I would join a community or if one would just form in our area- we are a very small, small 4 way stop out in the country,, and most of us have lived here for many years near one another, we all know our good and our bad in us. And there is a small hydro electric dam quite close to us (with in a mile and 1/2) many of us have gardens and some even have dairy cows and meat beefalos. So I can see most of us here in this little town teaming up and defending what is ours and doing good trading.


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## Rourke (Jul 23, 2010)

I think that to form a survival group - after TSHTF - it has to be with people you know and trust.

You may be putting your life and your families lives in the hands of these other people.

Just imagine you wake up one morning and find that 90% of yourr food supplies are gone - along with couple members of _your_ group.

Rourke


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## horseman09 (Mar 2, 2010)

GypsyS, MMM and Sourdough, I think the most important thing preppers (or wannabe preppers) can take away from what the 3 of you so wisely said, is that *if you haven't done it you can't do it*.

We live in a very rural part of Pennsylvania (no, PA is not gritty steel mills, they went to China --more forested area than farm or city area in northern PA). I get very tired of hearing people say that if TSHTF they can always shoot a deer. We have lots of deer, bear, turkey and small game, but sheesh. This often comes from city people (we call them flatlanders) who haven't shot a deer in years if ever, but they're gonna live off the land? Uhhh huh. They ain't gonna live off MY land.

On one of the first posts I ever made on this forum I stated that, by far, our greatest threat to survival in a SHTF situation will be people, people, people. Probably not unlike _One Second After_, but far worse in areas like ours where city people are only 100 miles away and have cabins here. In a crisis, they will swarm up here with whatever junk they can cram in their new, sparkling $50,000 SUVs and will be starving, freezing and ready to kill us for a piece of moldy jerky inside of a week.

Rourke, I think you are right about having only people you can trust in your group, but as MMM said, that's gonna be mostly about family. When things get ugly some of your friends and neighbors that you thought you could trust will be lining up their front and back sights on your chest, or more accurately, your back.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

I look at it this way too...our extended family could bring close to 20 people to our homestead. That would take, what...a deer a week? 

Let's say one every other week. That's 26 deer a year. Times the neighbors needing that kind of deer kill too?

Yeah. We'd be out of deer pretty quick.

Though I'd say we'd stretch it a lot farther than that. Lots of stew or stir-fry.


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

gypsysue said:


> I look at it this way too...our extended family could bring close to 20 people to our homestead. That would take, what...a deer a week?
> 
> Let's say one every other week. That's 26 deer a year. Times the neighbors needing that kind of deer kill too?
> 
> ...


 I wouldn't count on any game at all after the month, maybe fish as it don't make any noise to take them or small game that can be trapped, anytime there is a shot fired, people are going to be looking for the place in came from. Even after a couple months of hungry people running around, a possum or snakes won't even be safe.
buy an extra bag of wheat, rice or beans with the money used to buy extra shells.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

Exactly my point, lotsoflead! There's no way we could expect to survive on hunting and fishing, not with the numbers of people also trying to survive the same way! 

Taking up bow hunting is one way around the noise of firing a rifle. My husband started years ago, and it's his primary hunting method. And it's quiet.

But I would want to have a lot of wheat, rice, and beans put back to stretch whatever meat and vegetables could be hunted or grown (or fished, etc.). It's not going to be pretty times.


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

gypsysue said:


> Exactly my point, lotsoflead! There's no way we could expect to survive on hunting and fishing, not with the numbers of people also trying to survive the same way!
> 
> *Taking up bow hunting is one way around the noise of firing a rifle. My husband started years ago, and it's his primary hunting method. And it's quiet.*
> But I would want to have a lot of wheat, rice, and beans put back to stretch whatever meat and vegetables could be hunted or grown (or fished, etc.). It's not going to be pretty times.


oh yeah, I forgot the bow and I don't know why, there are 3 hanging on the wall by the basement stairs, no good to me though, I'm hoping the law will change and give senors the right to hunt with crossbow.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

Sourdough said:


> Gypsysue, I just feel that people on these forums concentrate on Firearms, Camping stoves, Pack packs, etc.. And I feel they would be better served being in very hard physical condition, to perform the rigors of survival. What I don't understand is why some people think life will be easier, living a subsistence lifestyle. Or that they can transition to a subsistence lifestyle based on what they learned on a forum or in a book.
> 
> I don't look down on people, I just feel that for most people these forums are just one more source of "Entertainment", in there entertainment saturated lives. And that makes me sad.


Yuppers. I am one of those fat city-people who concentrates on firearms, camping stoves, back-packs, etc, but, there is a small difference between me and many of those others who live in this city - I am a "small-town-boy" from the mountains living in a city because I have to, not because I want to. My "work-skills" are such that a fairly significant sized customer base is required for me to earn a living.

My "entertainment" saturated life includes tracking, identifying plants, off-roading, camping, X-country-ski'ng, snow-shoe'ng, hiking whenever possible. When I am stuck in the city, I read books about the flora / fauna around here, memorize maps / terrain (GoogleEarth is great for that) and of course, surfing the 'net for information that I can pile into my photographic memory.



lotsoflead said:


> oh yeah, I forgot the bow and I don't know why, there are 3 hanging on the wall by the basement stairs, no good to me though, I'm hoping the law will change and give senors the right to hunt with crossbow.


I also have a cross-bow, a Barnett. Nothing stops me from using it, except a broken string. I need to get my own bow-press so that I can change my own strings instead of needing to rely on someone else to change it for me. My compound-bows are awesome in many ways, but, a long-bow surpasses it with its simplicity.

If you want to follow more on cross-bow laws / regulations, places to use them and meet other hunters who primarily use X-Bow for hunting, check out CrossBowNation - a great forum (I am only a member there).


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

NaeKid said:


> ...I also have a cross-bow, a Barnett. Nothing stops me from using it, except a broken string. I need to get my own bow-press so that I can change my own strings instead of needing to rely on someone else to change it for me. My compound-bows are awesome in many ways, but, a long-bow surpasses it with its simplicity. ...


Do you make your own strings?

We have a $79.00 cheapie crossbow and a rather nice Norton compound crossbow. I haven't shot the Norton through the chronograph yet but it's fast. The only real difference on accuracy though is the trigger pull. The Norton has a light (relatively speaking) trigger and the other has a very heavy trigger pull. Both will hit a quarter 50 percent of the time at 20 yards. I have scopes on both. The Norton is very hevy compared to the other one. They are close range weapons but still very deadly. I make my own bolts for mine.

We can legally use ours for big game during the rifle season. The handicapped may get a permit to use them during bow season. I personally hope that they never legalize them for bow season here. After shooting both for many years the crossbow is just too easy to use compared to even a compound bow. Now, if they'd go for a special crossbow and muzzleloader season I'd go for that.

Of course in an EOTWAWKI situation game laws will be irrelavent.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

mosquitomountainman said:


> Do you make your own strings?
> 
> We have a $79.00 cheapie crossbow and a rather nice Norton compound crossbow. I haven't shot the Norton through the chronograph yet but it's fast. The only real difference on accuracy though is the trigger pull. The Norton has a light (relatively speaking) trigger and the other has a very heavy trigger pull. Both will hit a quarter 50 percent of the time at 20 yards. I have scopes on both. The Norton is very hevy compared to the other one. They are close range weapons but still very deadly. I make my own bolts for mine.


Naa, I don't make my own strings - one of the major sponsors of CrossBowNation does such a good job for such a great price that I haven't bothered to make my own strings. It is on my list of things to do, but, at the moment, that list is quite long.

I figure that I get between 250 and 300 shots with my X-Bow on a string before it starts to fade. If I am out hunting and the string fades away, I need to get back into town for replacement. The bow-press isn't too large, but, I do need to have a good sized work-bench to set it on. I have heard that there is a company that makes something portable that slips into a 2" receiver on a truck. Its all money that I am still saving up for.

With my Barnett X-Bow, I can normally drop an arrow to about 1/2-shaft into my "cube" target. At about 75yards (open field) I can normally put the arrow into the 3" bullseye, that is when the wind co-operates. Light breeze is fine, but, gale-force winds really send my arrow off-target 

Where do you purchase your arrow-stock from? Online or someone a little more local? I just do "minor repairs" as required to my arrows, haven't done anything more than that at all.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

NaeKid said:


> With my Barnett X-Bow, I can normally drop an arrow to about 1/2-shaft into my "cube" target. At about 75yards (open field) I can normally put the arrow into the 3" bullseye, that is when the wind co-operates. Light breeze is fine, but, gale-force winds really send my arrow off-target
> 
> Where do you purchase your arrow-stock from? Online or someone a little more local? I just do "minor repairs" as required to my arrows, haven't done anything more than that at all.


That's good shooting. Do you use a rangefinder?

I fudge a little on arrow stock. I use bent aluminum arrows or broken wood arrows. As long as there's still a large enough straight piece to use in the crossbow after cutting off the bent end they work well. On aluminum I glue in another insert like those used for screwing the point into. I have an old aluminum piece that was designed for gluing into a tapered point to make it into a replacable head only I ground it down to accept a knock which I glued onto it. The knock end fits into my fletching jig so I can fletch the shaft. When it's fletched I unscrew the knock. That leaves the threaded shaft insert in the arrow shaft. It works against the string just as the solid end of a regular crossbow bolt does and I just use replaceable points in the other end. So far it's worked as good as factory bolts.

When I cut down wood arrows I have a knock glued into a piece of rubber tubing. I slip that over the shaft and fletch the shaft using my fletching jig. I then take it off when the glue dries, leaving the back of the shaft cut flat. I'll either place the flat end against the string or, if I'm worried about the shaft splitting upon firing I'll glue a bullet case from a 9mm pistol bullet on the string end for the string to fire against. I may glue a 38 special case on the front to use as a blunt point. It kills small game very dead.

I haven't had any trouble with the arrow spine with either aluminum or wood arrows. A crossbow is much more powerful than a longbow or compound but by shortening the arrow shaft you also increase it's spine.

Anyway, instead of throwing away damaged arrows I now reuse them with the crossbow when I can.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

mosquitomountainman said:


> That's good shooting. Do you use a rangefinder?
> 
> I fudge a little on arrow stock. I use bent aluminum arrows or broken wood arrows. As long as there's still a large enough straight piece to use in the crossbow after cutting off the bent end they work well. On aluminum I glue in another insert like those used for screwing the point into. I have an old aluminum piece that was designed for gluing into a tapered point to make it into a replacable head only I ground it down to accept a knock which I glued onto it. The knock end fits into my fletching jig so I can fletch the shaft. When it's fletched I unscrew the knock. That leaves the threaded shaft insert in the arrow shaft. It works against the string just as the solid end of a regular crossbow bolt does and I just use replaceable points in the other end. So far it's worked as good as factory bolts.
> 
> ...


My X-bow is scoped with multiple-lines in the eye-sight. I normally just "guess" my distance based on "foot-steps". When counting my steps, it gives me a close-enough idea of which horizontal line I should be using in my scope.

I can get raw lengths of fibreglass for tents - do you think that they would make a good X-bow arrow? I have lots of spare broad-heads and nocks that I think that I could attach to the shaft. You know, I might just try it out and see if they explode when I pull the trigger or if they explode on impact. Could be fun to play with :wave:


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

NaeKid said:


> My X-bow is scoped with multiple-lines in the eye-sight. I normally just "guess" my distance based on "foot-steps". When counting my steps, it gives me a close-enough idea of which horizontal line I should be using in my scope.
> 
> I can get raw lengths of fibreglass for tents - do you think that they would make a good X-bow arrow? I have lots of spare broad-heads and nocks that I think that I could attach to the shaft. You know, I might just try it out and see if they explode when I pull the trigger or if they explode on impact. Could be fun to play with :wave:


My Horton crossbow has a cam on the sight rail I so I can "dial in" elevation changes. I'm not real familiar with it so I usually just hold over for longer shots.

If you can attach knocks and points to the shafting I'd give it a shot. If it's like our fiberglass tent poles they'll be pretty stiff so breakage would probably not be a problem. They might be pretty heavy though which will hurt trajectory but help in penetration. Everything is a trade-off.

Let us know what happens!


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## TechAdmin (Oct 1, 2008)

As long a you can contribute more than you take, you're welcome in my BOS.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

mosquitomountainman said:


> My Horton crossbow has a cam on the sight rail I so I can "dial in" elevation changes. I'm not real familiar with it so I usually just hold over for longer shots.
> 
> If you can attach knocks and points to the shafting I'd give it a shot. If it's like our fiberglass tent poles they'll be pretty stiff so breakage would probably not be a problem. They might be pretty heavy though which will hurt trajectory but help in penetration. Everything is a trade-off.
> 
> Let us know what happens!


I shoot the Barnett Revolution AVI X-bow that is accurate as all get-out. My first shot ever with it was into the target and after getting the scope dial'd in I was shooting into the bulls-eye on the target (5 bulls-eyes at 3" round).

If you look at the stats about the bow on the page listed above, I believe that it has more than enough power to hurl heavy fiberglass tent-poles into just about anything that I would want to hit. Worst-case would be that I would have to aim a little higher to hit my target...


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## lexsurivor (Jul 5, 2010)

What wood would be good for a hand made bow.


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## lanahi (Jun 22, 2009)

Emerald said:


> I am not sure if I would join a community or if one would just form in our area- we are a very small, small 4 way stop out in the country,, and most of us have lived here for many years near one another, we all know our good and our bad in us. And there is a small hydro electric dam quite close to us (with in a mile and 1/2) many of us have gardens and some even have dairy cows and meat beefalos. So I can see most of us here in this little town teaming up and defending what is ours and doing good trading.


I think small towns, farmers, and neighborhoods can help each other survive and rebuild. I live in a trailor park in a small town far from large cities, and my neighbors look out for each other. I feel comfortable in feeling that we will help defend each other and help each other's survival. We have several ex-military, a policeman, hunters and fishermen, gardeners, an EMT, a farmer or two, carpenters, even a basketmaker and others whose skills we can use. One neighbor smokes his game and fish and has a good knowledge of survival skills, some do canning, some dehydrating. I am teaching some of them to forage for wild edible plants. I think at least two families besides myself are preppers, maybe more. Everyone has a vegetable garden. In back of our park is a large wooded area and vacant meadows and an all-season creek where we could expand into some farming. It also has hundreds of fruit trees and berry bushes. I do not have a family nearby but my neighbors will take the place of family. I think we will continue to cooperate with each other as we do now and will not need to add extensive organization.

In this part of Idaho, people are fiercely independent and patriotic and many are self sufficient to one degree or the other. Nearly everyone has guns and knows how to use them and most would be willing to defend their towns and neighborhoods from outside threats.

In our case, I think the scenario will be like the one in "Alas, Babylon", where the town comes together in mutual support. That's a good book to read, by the way, because it is realistic, though fiction. The people in the town for the most part did not prepare for the disaster that struck but they learned fast and each contributed the skills they had to help each other and the town to survive.

I don't think the actual scenario will necessarily be people killing and looting each other and everyone out for themselves. Yes, in a SHTF scenario, the situation in some places, especially in cities, will bring out the worst in people, but in small towns and farms all over America, it will bring out the best in each other. We still have it in us to be great.


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## lanahi (Jun 22, 2009)

lexsurivor said:


> What wood would be good for a hand made bow.


This would be better in its own thread.


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## Emerald (Jun 14, 2010)

lanahi said:


> I think small towns, farmers, and neighborhoods can help each other survive and rebuild. I live in a trailor park in a small town far from large cities, and my neighbors look out for each other. I feel comfortable in feeling that we will help defend each other and help each other's survival. We have several ex-military, a policeman, hunters and fishermen, gardeners, an EMT, a farmer or two, carpenters, even a basketmaker and others whose skills we can use. One neighbor smokes his game and fish and has a good knowledge of survival skills, some do canning, some dehydrating. I am teaching some of them to forage for wild edible plants. I think at least two families besides myself are preppers, maybe more. Everyone has a vegetable garden. In back of our park is a large wooded area and vacant meadows and an all-season creek where we could expand into some farming. It also has hundreds of fruit trees and berry bushes. I do not have a family nearby but my neighbors will take the place of family. I think we will continue to cooperate with each other as we do now and will not need to add extensive organization.
> 
> In this part of Idaho, people are fiercely independent and patriotic and many are self sufficient to one degree or the other. Nearly everyone has guns and knows how to use them and most would be willing to defend their towns and neighborhoods from outside threats.
> 
> ...


I can't believe it! someone else who has read Alas, Babylon! I had to read that book in high school and actually stole the book for my collection! 
I do think that in big cities there will be those "Road Warrior" type blow ups but when the dust settles many more people will be more like the book. 
I have been a mushroom hunter for years and for part of my girl scout training I learned and made a pictorial on edibles in the wild. Some of that stuff you don't forget and I have made it a goal to learn as much about wild foods as possible and we do harvest many of them. not to forget where all the good stuff is growing wild and free.
P/s for folks in MI the hen of the woods are popping up here and there and so is the Chicken of the woods.:2thumb:
Even tho I don't hunt that often any more (it has been over 10 years due to car accident making me, not as mobile ) I have friends and neighbors who love to hunt and will often shoot one for me. But I still have all of my guns and bows, but should really go out and pick up more arrows. Plus when my much missed and loved Father in Law passed away we ended up with a couple of his guns from his collection.
I am also on friendly terms with the people who work at the hydro dam and they are neighbors so that really makes me feel a bit better.
I do garden and try to grow more for us, and when people start making fun and talking about "bomb shelters and bunkers" I just say Oh I'm not that crazy, it is just my allergies to food additives makes me put by more of my food... Best cover story ever! (true but still a great cover) Many folks around here know that I grow heirlooms and Open Pollinated veggies and save my own seed, so I can see great barter fodder in those seeds.
I can see a few of the newer neighbors not sticking around here if push comes to shove- and hopefully that will leave some homes vacant for some of my family to move into. (yes I do dream big).


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

"Alas, Babylon" has been mentioned many times on this forum, on different threads. It's a pretty commonly-read book among preppers, and a very good book!

I hide some of my prepper lifestyle by presenting a bit of "doing my part to cut down on pollution" and "Oooh, organic! So much healthier for us!" 

No need to do that among my neighbors. Most of them are die-hard preppers. But the nearby town has a lot of anti-gun, "save the little forest critters & trees", and liberal types of people.


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## Vertigo (Aug 6, 2009)

mosquitomountainman said:


> Too many people have never had an opportunity to work on farms or as a family. The work can be hard but can also be fun...


I fully understand what you mean: hard work isn't that hard, when you can do it with family or friends. Oh sure, I might bitch at times, because it is cold or raining, but overall we always have good fun, when we work together. Just last weekend we went over to my grand parents place to help butcher some chickens in the afternoon. Yes, it is not the most pleasant job, but we were cracking jokes, telling stories, etc., Just generally having a great time. And we were all pretty hungry afterwards 

To come back on topic, yes, if it were my decision, I would join up with others, because numbers will be the only way to make it. However, short of letting anyone in, I would only let those people in that can be vouched for by people I know and trust.

V.


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## flatwater (Dec 15, 2008)

This is an important subject. One needs to develope those close bonds before TSHTF because it takes time and you can't afford to rush into it after TSHTF. I was a corrections officer for 28 years and the reason most crooks got caught was they had a partner that was willing to sell them out. We need people who will die for us as we would them


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

*No man is an islandideal*

Even if you could survive alone, or just with your immediate family, would you really want to?? I mean aside from the nuts and bolts of growing food and securing your position man is a social being. So much of our problem today is the result of us failing to realize this--society could survive most disasters pretty much whole if people would just be social, if they would just wake up and realize that they need their neighbor who they have never spoken to a whole lot more than they need Steve Jobs and his apple gizmos.

In SHTF we should want to help and protect as many people as possible in our retreat. Because that is the human thing to do. The only limit to this desire is our own scarce resources and the others unwillingness to cooperate.

This being said the most important thing in a survival retreat is not a perfect SOP or rule manual, its a culture. Your group needs to share common goals, values, and ideally, a common faith. This more than anything is what Alexis de Tocqueville noted was unique about our new born America nation and I dare say its the only thing that can save us collectively or as small groups now.


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## Salekdarling (Aug 15, 2010)

Right now if the S were to HTF, I'd try to meet up with my immediate family. (Although that would be rather interesting considering I live two hours away.) BO plans still in the works for that. I would rather get things situated with my family, give it a month or two until things cool down and maybe adventure out into the unknown and see what kind of community can be pulled together. 

The biggest issue with make shift councils is that there will always be people who will want it their way or the highway. I'm a take charge kind of person and yes, there are things that I will not agree with when it comes to voting in a council but if it's for the betterment of the community, I won't walk off in a huff. Now if the community decided on something incredibly stupid...I don't know how I would deal with it. If it were to put my family and myself in danger... "See ya! Wouldn't want to be ya!":wave:


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## JackDanielGarrett (Sep 27, 2010)

When "something" happens, being able to depend on others is a big issue. Can we even depend on our families to "cowboy up" and chip in with just the minimal duties.
I live less than a mile from a "well used" railroad track. And this Ill. town evacuated after train derails, explodes - US news - Life - msnbc.com is what I prepare for. Train derailment with cars loaded with some bad stuff, and on fire. Ain't much you can do but run, I guess.
SO many variables when it comes to help or assistance from others, sometimes it may be best just to handle it yourself, and pray.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*The English long bow*



lexsurivor said:


> What wood would be good for a hand made bow.


The English long bow was made from the wood of the Yew tree.

This tree was almost extinct in England due to so many being made for the British army.

Ash makes a good long bow.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

It's going to be just the members of my household plus one. Me, my wife, my 21 year old stepson, and his girlfriend. She still lives at home but we're prepping for her too. We only have enough food, water, and space for the four of us. I'm talking about the first year after the collapse. We don't have land. I expect the government to reestablish control over the country. I don't expect to have to survive on our own for the rest of our lives.

We don't know other people who are prepping. Even if we did, I can't imagine us moving in with them or vice versa. We have guns. My stepson and I will take turns guarding the house from the inside 24/7. I don't expect to go outside except to dump 5 gallon buckets of waste. I'll go at night. I'll be wearing night vision goggles. I'll have the bucket in one hand and my shot gun in the other.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

BillS said:


> It's going to be just the members of my household plus one. Me, my wife, my 21 year old stepson, and his girlfriend. She still lives at home but we're prepping for her too. We only have enough food, water, and space for the four of us. I'm talking about the first year after the collapse. We don't have land. I expect the government to reestablish control over the country. I don't expect to have to survive on our own for the rest of our lives.
> 
> We don't know other people who are prepping. Even if we did, I can't imagine us moving in with them or vice versa. We have guns. My stepson and I will take turns guarding the house from the inside 24/7. I don't expect to go outside except to dump 5 gallon buckets of waste. I'll go at night. I'll be wearing night vision goggles. I'll have the bucket in one hand and my shot gun in the other.


Bill,
It sounds to me like you have your stuff together as best you can given the circumstances.
I could tell you to "bug out", but if you really don't know where you would go then you probably have made the best choice that you can for you and your family. I believe that what some folks don't consider when they say leave is that not everyone really has a place to go and have not had the luxury of storing the bulk of their supplies at your BOL. I can't imagine trying to load and transport a years supply of food, water, and all of the other necessary supplies and attempting to do it in one trip with no firm destination in mind. So you hang in there brother and keep you and yours as comfortable and safe as you can after the crump.:2thumb:

I am one of the more fortunate ones in that we do have a BOL and have been able to stash alot of our supplies there. We would not have very much to load up if/when we decide to bug out. Like I said we do what we are able to do and make the best of it.

Now to answer the actual question. We have our designated group of family and friends (around 30) that will be living in our BOL, and I don't see the need for any more than that especially if we know virtually nothing about them. We don't have the room or supplies for more than our group and I don't believe i will be real quick to openly trust very many people after the collapse and you all know why. 
That is not to say that we won't offer help to others when needed and as we can afford to, because we are all in agreement and that is what we will do.

DM


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## Ezmerelda (Oct 17, 2010)

BillS said:


> ... My stepson and I will take turns guarding the house from the inside 24/7...


Your wife and the girlfriend don't shoot? What if you or your stepson are disabled for any reason?

I never fired a gun in my life until I was 36 years old, and it made me incredibly nervous, but gradually, I learned that a gun is a tool and I take pride in the fact that I can put this tool to good use. I highly recommend you get your ladies some range time. It could save your life some day.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

Ezmerelda said:


> Your wife and the girlfriend don't shoot? What if you or your stepson are disabled for any reason?
> 
> I never fired a gun in my life until I was 36 years old, and it made me incredibly nervous, but gradually, I learned that a gun is a tool and I take pride in the fact that I can put this tool to good use. I highly recommend you get your ladies some range time. It could save your life some day.


Excellent post.

Bill, I don't know if your ladies can shoot or not and if not and you want them to learn then I suggest that you teach them the five basics. 
!. Stance & grip
2. sight picture
3. sight pictue with target 
4. breath control 
5. trigger squeeze

When I was still an active firearms instructor, I used to make bets with some of the younger guys in my classes. I bet them that after I was through with the classroom portion of their training, the Ladies that had never fired a gun before would out shoot them.

Well what they didn't realize is the ladies that had never fired had never developed any bad habbits either. They soaked up my instructions like a sponge and in almost ever case once they had put a few practice rounds through their weapon and realized it didn't have the massive recoil that their hubbies had bragged about being able to handle, and with ear protection the Bang didn't bother them either. Before they started to fire for qualification, I would just remind them of the five basics of shooting and like I said most of the novice lady shooters would out shoot the guys.

I posted that long winded spiel to say that if you teach someone the correct way and show alot of patience and reassure them that unless they are looking down the bbl. when they squeeze that trigger nothing is going to hurt them. Then you should be able to get a former non-shooter up to speed in short order.

Just remember Firearm safety is the #1 most important thing that you can teach.

As an after thought, if you are trying to teach someone about trigger squeeze lay a penny flat on top of the bbl. and have them practice squeezing the trigger until they can do it without knocking the penny off. You can get to the point that you can rapid fire and still not move the penny.

DM


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## Salekdarling (Aug 15, 2010)

Ezmerelda said:


> Your wife and the girlfriend don't shoot? What if you or your stepson are disabled for any reason?
> 
> I never fired a gun in my life until I was 36 years old, and it made me incredibly nervous, but gradually, I learned that a gun is a tool and I take pride in the fact that I can put this tool to good use. I highly recommend you get your ladies some range time. It could save your life some day.


Way ahead of you dear! LOL. Love my guns.


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## SageAdvicefarmgirl (Jun 23, 2011)

BillS said:


> It's going to be just the members of my household plus one. Me, my wife, my 21 year old stepson, and his girlfriend. She still lives at home but we're prepping for her too. We only have enough food, water, and space for the four of us. I'm talking about the first year after the collapse. We don't have land. I expect the government to reestablish control over the country. I don't expect to have to survive on our own for the rest of our lives.
> 
> We don't know other people who are prepping. Even if we did, I can't imagine us moving in with them or vice versa. We have guns. My stepson and I will take turns guarding the house from the inside 24/7. I don't expect to go outside except to dump 5 gallon buckets of waste. I'll go at night. I'll be wearing night vision goggles. I'll have the bucket in one hand and my shot gun in the other.


I, for one, am prayin for ya, Bill, and know that you will be provided for!:


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## whome (Oct 6, 2011)

I agree having a group together before the SHTF is the thing to do. The problem is how do you find people for your group without screwing up your opsec?


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

whome said:


> I agree having a group together before the SHTF is the thing to do. The problem is how do you find people for your group without screwing up your opsec?


I agree and I have asked myself the same question.

I think the answer for must of us most of the time is simply "you cant". Now is not the time to build this group. Right now you cant hardly tell those that are prepping and have the right mindset from those who dont. Partially because of their OPSEC. The other issue is that you dont know what kind of S is going to HTF -- the kind of S will determine greatly what kind/size group you want/need.

Once the S has HTF then it will become much more clear who is a threat and who is someone you can work with. You will know how much information is too much to give away given the circumstances. You will have a better idea what kind of S is still headed toward the F.

In my opinion, unless you have a lucky chance run-in with the right people and manage to talk about the right things you will probably never find a like-minded person with which to group up with. Perhaps it would be possible to find someone on the forum but I would be very suspicious of the other partys intentions this early in the game.


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## KittyCat (Dec 1, 2010)

bczoom said:


> For me, it depends on the level of SHTF.
> 
> Max number of people can be quite a variable. In my situation, I'm thinking 40-50 but that's the # of people NEEDED. What needs to be considered is that each has their immediate and possibly extended families. Obviously, kids are welcome _but you still need to take care of them_ but what concerns me is attempts to bring in extended families.
> 
> Of the 40-50 mentioned, I'd start much smaller and watch how it develops. Are there rival groups in the area or do the "clans" get along and work for mutual benefits?


All that is needed is 12, the size of a Special Forces Operational Detachment Alpha A-Team to be tight knit a group. Keep in mind, however, such individuals are highly skilled, trained and motivated. They are very independent and creative


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## KittyCat (Dec 1, 2010)

gypsysue said:


> Even in an extended family situation, where they gather to one location, individual families need to be recongized, and everyone needs space. Our adult children and their kids are part of our family, but they are also a family unit of their own.
> 
> If the SHTF and we end up at the same BOL, those things need to be respected. There will need to be a balance between group rules and codes of living, and family unit rules, etc. Especially in a long-term situation. Certainly at first, survival and safety will be the primary concerns. The biggest problems of compatibility will come later.
> 
> There are so many differences and personalities among our family that putting together a successful group will be more of a challenge than selecting a group of compatible preppers to work together after TEOTWAWKI. The kids will want to be part of the group when they're hungry, but assert their independence when it comes to work and responsibilities. They think it'll be a lark to not have to drag themselves to their drudge jobs any more, that it'll be like an idyllic extended camping trip. Hah. Not even close.


No one has yet mentioned churches. While many are "every man for himself", because disunity and disorder reigns due chiefly to rugged American individualism , others (few) are very tightly knit. These few will survive and flourish where others fail because there is structure, authority and self sacrifice. They know how to get along and will help and suffer hardship for the sake of the other. This type of community can be very small or very large. I stated in a previous post 12 is the minimum needed for a group. In the tight knit church the minimum and maximum is more flexible.


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