# Factory built BOV



## NaeKid

I was thinkin' this morning on my way into work about all kinds of vehicles that you can purchase brand new off the show-room floor, with warranty that would be the perfect BOV - throw the BOB into the back and go ...

In no particular order the top three that came to my mind are:


*Dodge PowerWagon* - Based on the Ram 1500
Factory installed winch
Factory installed axle lockers

*Jeep Rubicon* - Based on the Wranglers (TJ and JK)
Factory installed axle lockers

*Ford Raptor* - Based on the F150
Factory installed long travel suspension


... and then one more company came to mind and that is Subaru with their Rally-cars - all wheel drive and designed for hi-speed rough-road travel. Not really off-road - just gravel "back-alley" type farm roads and such.

I would love to hear your thoughts on these vehicles and any others that I may not know about ... vehicles that anyone can walk into a show-room today and purchase brand new and not have to do anything more to them to be a great BOV.

Military and one-of vehicles will not count for this thread ... current or recently-current models only to be listed (no more than five years old due to not having the ability to have factory warranty).


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## Ravensoracle

May not be 100% factory direct considering that in most cases that I know of the beds are aftermarket additions. I've always thought of getting a utility truck to use as a BOV. 

The thing would be good stealth in an emergency situation. It would have all sorts of storage space for equipment. The generator, water pumps, tools and other heavy equipment would not look out of place driving it around everyday. 

And to top it off, have you ever seen how far into some rough terrain those trucks have been driven? I,ve watched a truck built on a F-650 chassis basically cutting it's own path through heavy woods as it cleared trees from around the power lines. The old utility truck I drove as a teenager on the farm/ranch I worked was keeping up with the jeep that the owner used. The truck had lift and welder on it.


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## jsriley5

I personally have a love affair with jeeps although I've never owned one new enough to have anykind of warranty. Have been lusting after a Rubicon for a long long time especially the 4 door model. Tis a shame my jeep was a casualty of the months it took to start receiving any kind of disability income had to sell it.  We are looking at new vehicles though gonna have to get somthing in a few months to a year good chance it will be a jeep though probably not a rubicon  More likely a Grand Cherokee which is fine the jeeps I"ve owned thus far were all regular chrokees.


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## andy3

That's why I have a older utility truck built on a full ton frame. 4x4 and storage for anything. 

Andy


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## Caribou

My personal favorite would be a Unimog. While any 4X4 SUV or truck would be excellent I want more than a BOB in my BOV and a Mog is highly adaptable.


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## zombieresponder

The Rubicon package is not just factory lockers. It's also entirely different axle housings, gearing, and transfer case(as far as the drivetrain goes, I don't know about other differences). The lockers are electrically actuated, if I remember correctly, and will not remain engaged above something like 5-10 mph(from what I understand, anyway). The differential gearing is 4:11 to 1 and the axle housings are known for being easily bent. The front in particular is really not much better than the previously used axle housing, and from what I've read, actually uses some of the same components from the smaller housing. I don't recall for sure, but I believe the transfer case gearing is 4 to 1 in low range instead of the 2 point something to one in the standard models. I know the gearing is lower, I just can't remember exactly how much.


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## zombieresponder

jsriley5 said:


> I personally have a love affair with jeeps although I've never owned one new enough to have anykind of warranty. Have been lusting after a Rubicon for a long long time especially the 4 door model. Tis a shame my jeep was a casualty of the months it took to start receiving any kind of disability income had to sell it.  We are looking at new vehicles though gonna have to get somthing in a few months to a year good chance it will be a jeep though probably not a rubicon  More likely a Grand Cherokee which is fine the jeeps I"ve owned thus far were all regular chrokees.


The grand cherokees are mostly full time 4wd(quadratrac). I don't know if it's been resolved or not, but in the older ones(92-98 year range) the viscous coupler in the transfer case would be worn out by about 150k miles. When that part is worn beyond acceptable limits, the front and rear aren't allowed to turn at different rates and then it starts doing the typical bucking/jumping while turning that a part time 4wd system does when engaged on harder surfaces. The 1992-1998 grand cherokees are preferable to the '98-'09 models due to fewer electronics. In 2005 the Grand Cherokee got an IFS system in place of the solid front axle. I believe I read of more than a few people having lots of electronics problems with the 2005-2010 models. You shouldn't have any trouble finding out on one of the many jeep forums on the web.


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## teotwaki

Super reliable vehicles such as Toyotas and Nissans can be mildly modified for longer travel, lockers and so on. This is my 2005 4Runner 4x4 with almost 160,000 miles in eight years and only one minor problem with slightly weepy front axle seals.









I also have a large high capacity roof rack to hold more gear. The rack is extremely strong aluminum but weighs less than 50 pounds.









The 4Runner is still in production with a newer body style.


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## Boomy

I recently upgraded from my old baby to a new toy. I live the JKU except that the Cherokee had a bit more power. Both are great rigs though!


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## mojo4

I recently just bought a chevy silverado z-71. It has the 5.3 engine and it has great fuel economy with power to tow my trailer. The z-71 gives it better shocks and skid plates and it goes damn near anywhere. Plus it fits the family and I can load a lot of gear in the bed. I would only want a super or crew cab pickup for a BOV as it fits family and lots of gear. I have taken it up nasty craggy places here in CO and no problems!! Just gotta get a set of tire chains cause ice doesn't care if you have 2 wheel 4 wheel or 6 wheel drive!


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## NaeKid

Thanks for the reminders guys ...

A friend of mine and his lovely lady have a 4Runner with the factory locker and they take it deep into the bush for ice-climbing and extreme rock-climbing (ropes and such).

My dad has a Z71 pickup as well and he loves it with the extended-cab, but, is considering trading it for a truck with the crew-cab instead ... he has never taken his truck "off-road" .. only through deep snows to get to the trail-head for X-Country ski-tours ...

So, now the list should be updated ...


*Dodge PowerWagon* - Based on the Ram 1500
Factory installed winch
Factory installed selectable axle lockers
Factory installed selectable sway-bar disconnects (extended flex)

*Jeep Rubicon* - Based on the Wranglers (TJ and JK)
Factory installed selectable axle lockers
Factory installed selectable sway-bar disconnects (extended flex)

*Ford Raptor* - Based on the F150
Factory installed posi-traction
Factory installed long travel suspension

*Subaru* - Any of them
Factory installed goodies to allow highspeed gravel road travel

*Chevy Z71* - Based on the 1500 or 2500 series trucks, Yukons and Avalanche
Factory installed posi, heavy-duty suspension, factory lift

*Toyota 4Runner* - Based on itself
Factory installed selectable lockers

*Mercedes UniMog* - Based on itself
Factory installed cable selectable lockers
Factory installed portal axles with ultra-low gearing
Factory installed "farm" accessories - hydraulics, connecting-points, etc


Of course, this isn't the be-all list, but it is coming along.

Some of you may know that I am one of the administrators over at JeepForum.com, so, I know about all the positives and negatives of the Jeep models ... and I know what it takes to modify them to be that much better than the factory intended (just like teotwaki commented about the Toyotas and Nissans) ... what I am looking for with this discussion is out-of-the-showroom options that make a great all around vehicle that will take you from the garage to anywhere that you need to go without spending money on aftermarket goodies.

Any vehicle would love better tires, more suspension-travel, better axle-lockers, more towing capacity, more storage capacity ... just more of everything. I know, I fall into that category as well - I can never leave a vehicle alone long enough to enjoy its "factory" settings .. :rofl:


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## zombieresponder

If you're looking at a chevy, I would opt for the 2500 or 3500 series. The frames are heavier than half ton versions. Swapping the rear end to a 14 bolt, disk braked, full float axle would add some beef too, though it may already be so equipped. A detroit locker for a 14 bolt is cheap too.


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## teotwaki

Naekid, just a minor correction. Toyota only offers a factory rear axle locker that is reliably engaged via an electrical solenoid. The software based Automatic Traction (A-TRAC) works very well within its limits on both front and rear axles. ATRAC cannot match a mechanical locker's abilities, especially at low engine RPMs. A front axle locker is only available if you install it. Some versions of the 4Runner have a locking Torsen center differential which can be useful for a number of situations.


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## NaeKid

I am not looking at any particular brand right now as my next vehicle, this is just an exercise in getting our minds thinking of other options. I have driven old vehicles for years, keeping them running with gun, duct-tape and mechanics-wire. One of my Jeep's is a hybrid ... Jeep frame and body with the heart and legs of Chevy .. 

I would love to have a new Ram PowerWagon, but, my bank account doesn't agree with that thought - so - I will be looking at something used. I am seriously leaning towards a 3/4-ton truck as I have had quite a few 1/4-ton and 1/2-ton over the years which served me well, but, I asked too much of them too many times.

teotwaki - thanks for letting me know that it is only one end with the factory locker and not on both-ends like the Jeep and Ram have, but, that is still way better than most of the 4x4s that come with only a posi from the factory and then call them "extreme" offroaders because of some pretty little badge that they stick to the side ...


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## cnsper

You know Caterpillar makes some nice BOV. They may take a little adaptation to get them the way you want them but they are also difficult to stop by the average zombie... LOL

Why not look at some farm or construction equipment as a BOV? They may not move fast but can be more difficult to stop.


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## NaeKid

I am thinking more along the lines of a daily-driver that does well in the city, on the highway and on gravel roads and in light offroad situations. Something that would work well going from the house down to the local fishin' hole and then take you on a vacation to the other side of the country (parents place or kid's place depending on where you are in life) ... and then take you out dancin' for a night on the town and the vehicle (and MSO) never complaining about it ... 

Would your little-lady want to be seen on the passenger seat of a greasy-grimey construction truck wearin' her best Sunday dress?


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## teotwaki

NaeKid said:


> I am thinking more along the lines of a daily-driver that does well in the city, on the highway and on gravel roads and in light offroad situations. Something that would work well going from the house down to the local fishin' hole and then take you on a vacation to the other side of the country (parents place or kid's place depending on where you are in life) ... and then take you out dancin' for a night on the town and the vehicle (and MSO) never complaining about it ...
> 
> Would your little-lady want to be seen on the passenger seat of a greasy-grimey construction truck wearin' her best Sunday dress?


Around here I see lots of very well preserved full-sized Ford Broncos. (I had mine for 20 years before selling it). The paint and chrome look sharp when cleaned up and might mollify the little lady's concerns when heading to the Sunday Sermon


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## NaeKid

I am in the middle of the salt-belt in Canada ... around here anything older than 6 years is so rusted out that a lady attempting to get into the vehicle could tear a big hole through her Sunday-best ... doesn't make for a very happy lady and when she isn't happy, no-one is! :eyebulge:


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## CulexPipiens

Most pickups and SUVs would fit this requirement, especially those with off road packages and 4x4 options. Of course if money isn't an object... and this probably stretches "daily driver" and "from the showroom" a bit but if I had the cash, a P4XL would be on my very short list. Even at a dealer, they may have to order the combination of BOV options you want so having to spec/order seems to still be in the spirit of the question.

http://sportchassis.com/component/o.../cat,overview/model,11/type,sp-Overview-P4XL/










You could also consider an RV, the ERA model from Winnebago comes to mind or the Tioga from Fleetwood.


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## SierraM37

Personally, I have an '07 JK, Rubicon. If I was going to do it again, I'd go JKU, the 4 door Rubicon. I've been ordering factory 4wheel drives since the early 80's from Chevys to Dodge to Ford and the Rubicon is the only I know of that you can get locked front and rear axles, the 4.11 transfer case and Dana 44's front and rear. You still need to add C clips to the front and beef up the track bar brackets for longevity but these are easy mods. Can easily run 35's and all I have is a 3" short arm kit and I've made it through the Rubicon Trail intact and without having to use the winch. With all axles locked, the thing is a billy goat, but you can still get it stuck so its not a substitute for brains.

Toyota has always made good stout trucks. Very strong factory axles and reliable as hell. 

Unimog's are indeed factory locked AND have the portal axles. No other factory truck has as much clearance. Best to get a diesel and a DOKA (crew cab) if you can find one. They are not cheap, parts are not easy to find but they are indeed the only one I would put ahead of the Rubicon for out the door best rigged. It's not realistic to expect to get a factory unimog here in the US. I think they start about $70k but they have PTO and hydraulics so you can use tractor attachments on them. Very cool, very functional, very expensive. 

Chevy Z71, Fseries and Dodge Rams are decent. You sacrifice ride when you jump from the 1/2 tons to 3/4 and 1 tons but you get the beefier rear axles and possibly fronts. Go with solid axles. I'm looking at replacing my dodge durango with a four door pick up, Z71 is one I'm considering as it has a 350 in it or dodge with a 318 as they are very common powerplants plus I have a running 318 sitting in y garage. 

I wish they made the JKU in diesel. They may be coming out with a JK truck and adding diesel to the lineup soon.


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## NaeKid

SierraM37 said:


> Chevy Z71, Fseries and Dodge Rams are decent. You sacrifice ride when you jump from the 1/2 tons to 3/4 and 1 tons but you get the beefier rear axles and possibly fronts. Go with solid axles. I'm looking at replacing my dodge durango with a four door pick up, Z71 is one I'm considering as it has a 350 in it or dodge with a 318 as they are very common powerplants plus I have a running 318 sitting in y garage.


Sorry - no more 350's left in the Chevy lineup unless you go back to 1998 or there-abouts. My dad had a '98 Z71 with the 350ci and then "upgraded" to a new Z71 with the 327ci and he wishes over and over again that he never did that. The 327ci has "impressive numbers" but when putting the power to the road, his ol' '98 was way better.

The new 6.0l (400ci-series) is way better for putting power to the road, but, they are very thirsty compared to the 327 ...


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## Tirediron

How about one of these
http://www.foremost.ca/products/commander-c
made in Canada for harsh conditions


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## NaeKid

I used to live at the end of the block from them and got to watch as many of their projects would be completed. Now I do alot of cutting and forming of steel for their projects ... but I would prefer their transport bus ... too bad that it would be hard on fuel, but, it would be an awesome BOV that wouldn't be hard to miss ...

http://www.foremost.ca/products/terra-bus


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## teotwaki

NaeKid said:


> I am in the middle of the salt-belt in Canada ... around here anything older than 6 years is so rusted out ---snip-


Okay then one parameter our research should be that unless a vehicle falls in the range of no older than 2007 and almost rust free it has to be ruled out.

Reminds me that back in the 70's I met a Canadian who would spend a month in SoCal buying clean, cheap used and rust free cars and then haul them back to Canada. I can only imagine how many US & Canadian restrictions now exist that will short circuit such entrepreneurism.


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## CulexPipiens

NaeKid said:


> I used to live at the end of the block from them and got to watch as many of their projects would be completed. Now I do alot of cutting and forming of steel for their projects ... but I would prefer their transport bus ... too bad that it would be hard on fuel, but, it would be an awesome BOV that wouldn't be hard to miss ...
> 
> http://www.foremost.ca/products/terra-bus


I'd make at least one modification... bullet resistant glass! Either that or wrap it in armor or something.


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## FrankW

Apurpose bought BOV really should have a Diesel engine.

More range, less flammability, safer long term storage of fuel, more effective long term storage of fuel (sours much much slower than gas)

By themelves each of these advantages are not much but they all add up and make Diesel the superior power for a BOV (for the record I dont have one , yet)

If I were to buy a new vehicle as the OP states, then I would have a choice of powerplant though , unlike buying used where it gets harder.

Basically a small truck with a Diesel (I know not many choices in small truck) would be perfect.

A Pinzgauer or Unimog would be nice but they are rare and expensive so are not a realistic choice for me,


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## don04348

Be sure whatever you get will run on ethernol e85 or e100, when the gas and diesel runs out you can always run on moonshine.


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## NaeKid

NaeKid said:


> I would love to hear your thoughts on these vehicles and any others that I may not know about ... vehicles that anyone can walk into a show-room today and purchase brand new and not have to do anything more to them to be a great BOV.
> 
> Military and one-of vehicles will not count for this thread ... current or recently-current models only to be listed (no more than five years old due to not having the ability to have factory warranty).





teotwaki said:


> Okay then one parameter our research should be that unless a vehicle falls in the range of no older than 2007 and almost rust free it has to be ruled out.


Yuppers - that is what I suggested in the first posting ... my own 2006 Jeep that I bought brand-new is really showing age-spots (rust) and that really makes me unhappy ...


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## PackerBacker

BlueZ said:


> Apurpose bought BOV really should have a Diesel engine


I'm a huge fan of diesels and all my trucks are diesel but I think when TSHTF I am going to wish I had gas engines for the reason already stated. It'll run on shine. Which will be easier to make then biodiesel.

Maybe I should learn to make diesel.


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## PackerBacker

I am confused here. Why does age and factory warranty matter?


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## NaeKid

PackerBacker said:


> I am confused here. Why does age and factory warranty matter?


Because this thread is about common vehicles that are current factory offerings that would also make a great BOV with its highway and offroad capabilities ... the best BOV that was manufactured in 1978 would take alot of maintenance to keep it running and reliable as a daily-driver.

There are other threads about designing the best BOV and such, but, not everyone has the ability to build their own vehicles, so, starting with something new could be the best route for them to go with.


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## PackerBacker

NaeKid said:


> Because this thread is about common vehicles that are current factory offerings that would also make a great BOV with its highway and offroad capabilities ... the best BOV that was manufactured in 1978 would take alot of maintenance to keep it running and reliable as a daily-driver.
> 
> There are other threads about designing the best BOV and such, but, not everyone has the ability to build their own vehicles, so, starting with something new could be the best route for them to go with.


Thinking newer is less maintenance is flawed thinking. IMHDAO


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## sgtrunningfool

I have thought about getting an older vehicle and stripping all non essentials out. Pull out AC and thinks like that. Just get it down to absolute basics


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## NaeKid

sgtrunningfool said:


> I have thought about getting an older vehicle and stripping all non essentials out. Pull out AC and thinks like that. Just get it down to absolute basics


Don't just think about it - start a new thread and describe your progress so that the rest of us can follow along and take ideas from what you come up with.


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## Tirediron

I think for the most part many people what I see as the point of this thread: I f you are making payment or just buying a new vehicle, have you considered it as a potential BOV, or even GHV , Many times a larger more robust vehicle doesn't cost that much more and is cheaper in the long run. As to the post about a new low mile vehicle needing as much maintainance as a old miled out one, perhaps one should try to keep an old miled out junker running. normal oil changes etc need to be done on any thing but bearings and u joints etc are normaly good for at least 100000 mile these days, I personally know of a GMC yukon with 420000 km that has never had or needed a "tune up" ie plugs wires etc. it has had its fluids and filters done as needed,


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## ZangLussuria

www.earthroamer.com/

or a 4x4 Roadtrek.
www.roadtrek.com


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## mojo4

Well packerbacker I have to disagree with you. Older vehicles are in constant need of newer parts as after 200K miles parts flat wear out. Also, its much much harder to find parts for 25 or 30 year old vehicles as most companies stop production and more junkyard scrap competition with other old beater owners. You can reliably jump in a brand new truck and other than oil changes expect no issues for 80 to 120K miles. You definitely can't do that with an old beater. I know from firsthand experience how difficult it is to try to track down parts for 30 year old trucks. No thanks.


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## CulexPipiens

BlueZ said:


> ...
> A Pinzgauer or Unimog would be nice but they are rare and expensive so are not a realistic choice for me,


I saw a Pinzgauer on the road just yesterday! I even ended up stopped right next to it at a light. I tried to get the drivers attention but the light had changed and he ended up turning off.

Wasn't anything fancy, just had nice ground clearance and lots of room.

Looked just like this one.


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## PackerBacker

mojo4 said:


> Well packerbacker I have to disagree with you. Older vehicles are in constant need of newer parts as after 200K miles parts flat wear out. Also, its much much harder to find parts for 25 or 30 year old vehicles as most companies stop production and more junkyard scrap competition with other old beater owners. You can reliably jump in a brand new truck and other than oil changes expect no issues for 80 to 120K miles. You definitely can't do that with an old beater. I know from firsthand experience how difficult it is to try to track down parts for 30 year old trucks. No thanks.


Why do we jump from brand new to 30-35 year old?

My 10ish year old trucks with 200-200+k on them are the farthest thing from wore out. Parts are very common and repairs are fairly simple and easy to DIY.

Contrast that to my dads 3.5 year old truck that just had some sensor go out in the stabilitrac. Several days to tear down, a week plus to get parts and several days to put back together. Down for almost 2 weeks. All on his dime.

Post SHTF in know which one will be easier to get serviced and get parts for.

Both being diesels which one would you rather have when fuel gets short and you have to run them on homemade and/or questionable fuel?


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## sgtrunningfool

Most vehicles made in the last few decades have a lot more on them than what is necessary for operation. I would think that in bug out situation the less thing that can go wrong the better. You could also stockpile parts for your vehicle easier and cheaper if you could pull them out of a junk yard. I also worry about fixing newer vehicles if there are computers to diagnose sensor and ecm issues


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## Hokoman

*BOV*



Ravensoracle said:


> May not be 100% factory direct considering that in most cases that I know of the beds are aftermarket additions. I've always thought of getting a utility truck to use as a BOV.
> 
> The thing would be good stealth in an emergency situation. It would have all sorts of storage space for equipment. The generator, water pumps, tools and other heavy equipment would not look out of place driving it around everyday.
> 
> And to top it off, have you ever seen how far into some rough terrain those trucks have been driven? I,ve watched a truck built on a F-650 chassis basically cutting it's own path through heavy woods as it cleared trees from around the power lines. The old utility truck I drove as a teenager on the farm/ranch I worked was keeping up with the jeep that the owner used. The truck had lift and welder on it.


Excellent idea!! Sure glad you thot of it. I'm already looking.


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## Fn/Form

Most of the discussed vehicles are fine if you already have a fully prepped retreat. But even those with a great BOL or that live at their "retreat" need to think about having to pull up stakes.

The rest of us have to adapt our budgets and loads and think smart. For the most part, these vehicles will be hard pressed in SHTF tasks like pushing vehicles out of the way in imperfect weather, driving over curbs at moderate speed, run-flat tires, etc. 

Lightweight vehicles like Subaru Forester, Baja or the like are great as long as the surface is reasonable and it's not raining or snowing (pushing a vehicle out of the way). You need to add some serious tires to take advantage of the all-wheel drive; 100% of the ones around here have street tires only. And they don't have even push bumpers fitted.

The Ford Raptor is an awesome truck. It also costs about $40-50k. I bet you could find and outfit several non-electronic 4x4 trucks for extreme dependability for that price. 

All of these modern vehicles won't be worth a crap if an EMP hits. Might as well buy some Gucci hiking boots to match your modern ride. ;-) My main vehicle is a computer-controlled, 2WD truck as well.

If you're like me you can't afford to immediately duplicate essential gear for Bug In and Bug Out (stashed at a BOL). Your vehicle is going to be loaded, and it will handle like a pig. More so if you have a trailer or 5th wheel. Your views will be obscured, your ability to handle a long gun will be hampered and it won't accelerate like it used to.

I don't think a single bug out vehicle is wise, nor is it logical to disregard older vehicles. A decoy/sacrificial/scout vehicle might be a great idea. A decoy box truck full of stuffed animals would be awesome. Even better with a... harmful device set for someone who tries to open the storage area. But seriously, a scout vehicle can carry extra supplies or supplies that aren't as crucial. Abandon it if it breaks down.

I suggest loading each vehicle with a complementary mix of needed items. If you lose a vehicle... it's no good if you have all of your guns, cooking equipment and water supplies but have no ready food, shelter or extra fuel.

Noise is a huge consideration. Extreme knobby tires at speed, aftermarket exhaust, high engine RPMs due to low gearing or uphill chugging, etc. It lets them know you are coming, and it impairs your hearing. 

SF operators learned how to slowly accelerate to speed and coast to a stop without braking in order to sneak up on people. In motor pool HMMWVs, no less. Good vehicle separation prevents all eggs in one basket, and it allows arriving persons space to maneuver to better positions if ambushed.

I think a lot of this points to us in urban or suburban settings to get out of Dodge at the earliest sign of The End. Or at least get our families well on the way in relatively safer passage. It's going to be very, very ugly if we don't.


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## Tweto

Food for thought;

All you guys that are having trouble finding parts for older trucks. I have an original Bronco 302 1971. I'm amazed that I never have trouble finding parts. My local NAPA parts dealer always has everything I need right on his shelves. Body parts are easy to get also.

If you what to buy an old truck, buy a common vehicle like a Bronco, Jeep, etc. There are several companies that specialize in parts for these.


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## NaeKid

Tweto said:


> Food for thought;
> 
> All you guys that are having trouble finding parts for older trucks. I have an original Bronco 302 1971. I'm amazed that I never have trouble finding parts. My local NAPA parts dealer always has everything I need right on his shelves. Body parts are easy to get also.
> 
> If you what to buy an old truck, buy a common vehicle like a Bronco, Jeep, etc. There are several companies that specialize in parts for these.


This thread is about a _new_ with _warranty_ factory built vehicle that would be a great (or perfect) BOV that all you have to do is throw a pack into and go. You could be bugging out from a forest-fire, or a flood, or a tornado, or a hurricane, or a .... it doesn't need to be the end-of-the-world situation that you are bugging out from.

I do have my older vehicles and I do keep them in great shape and ready for extreme-use (offroading and such) ... shown below is my "oldest" vehicle now ... so, you can see that I do know about older vehicles that are very capable.

Body and frame is a 1988 Jeep YJ running a 1977 Chevy drive-train (transmission, transfercase, axles), a 1984 Chevy 350 motor that was built for a race motorboat (high RPMs all day long) with about 13" of suspension-lift (4" springs, plus SOA, plus ShackleReversal and extended shackles) that makes room for 38" tall bullet-proof military tires (MilSpec Michelin XMLs) and then a 9,500lb winch on the front, heavy bumpers and the ability to smash-n-bash my way through anything ...


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## NaeKid

... maybe a little video of it in action, going to get my friend out of a little hole where his 36" tires have gone missin' ...


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## headhunter

Mostly , trucks are a trade off starting with "what would I like" vs. "what can I afford"; and some where we try to shoe horn in towing capacity, milage, off road ability. "Can it carry" and "is it big enough " has to fit with "can the wife drive it" and "will it fit in the parking garages when we visit the city". Have you ever watched a guy / gal bring home a new 4X$ and have it not fit into a standard garage door?
Trailer towing pkgs. are usually good things, ground clearance to make it through snow or a flooded section on road becomes a necessity. Higher ratings on tire make them harder riding, but handle rocky roads better, cactus country too.
Low range units allow you to traverse roads without beating your machines up (I'm always amazed at the people who "forget" they have a low range unit.)
I started with a Jeep Gladiator in '72 and I think that all the major brands would make excellent - get out of Dodge trucks. The options chosen make certain ones stand out.


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## Cabowabo

I'd personally love to have a vehicular that would make a great BOV, but believing in no debt its tough to figure what would make a good BOV that I wouldn't have to go to debt to buy and has good mileage with a max budget of $20K... I was hoping this thread would have more realistic BOV's instead of the Raptor etc....


----------



## NaeKid

Cabowabo said:


> I'd personally love to have a vehicular that would make a great BOV, but believing in no debt its tough to figure what would make a good BOV that I wouldn't have to go to debt to buy and has good mileage with a max budget of $20K... I was hoping this thread would have more realistic BOV's instead of the Raptor etc....


What is realistic? Using a POS car with no ground clearance as a potential BOV and realizing too late that it is not up to the task of getting you and your loved ones to a place of safety? Or, is it realistic to have a vehicle that is built tough from the factory that will be comfortable and safe and able to handle that getaway from troubles?

A friend of mine is an engineer for one of the largest oil-n-gas companies here in Alberta. He has a fairly large family (wife and 5 children). His base income is in the $120k range per year plus extras (travel and hazzard pay and has full health insurance covered by the company ... and a company truck and ... more). His main family vehicle is a full-size Chevy All Wheel Drive van that when it was outfitted fully cost almost $120k.

My cousin is the father of 4 kids and he and his lovely wife use a 9-passenger 4x4 Suburban to haul the family around, he uses a motorbike for work travels during the summer (he is a B-pressure welder making great coin). Cost of that 'Burban was in the $60k range.

Another one of my cousins is a father of 5 kids and he and his lovely wife cart the kiddlettes around in an All Wheel Drive Astro van. He works in home construction, doesn't have alot of extra money, but, he was able to afford the $35k for the van to make sure that his family was safe.

So - you can see that everyone has different needs and different abilities. Just because one person brings home $20k per year doesn't mean that everyone is bringing home that kind of coin. My boss's sons both own houses that are in the $1.5 million dollar range and drive high-end BMW and Rover SUVs. For them, a "cheap" Ford Raptor would be just a toy to beat around the bush in and who cares if it gets smashed up ...


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## mojo4

Cabowabo said:


> I'd personally love to have a vehicular that would make a great BOV, but believing in no debt its tough to figure what would make a good BOV that I wouldn't have to go to debt to buy and has good mileage with a max budget of $20K... I was hoping this thread would have more realistic BOV's instead of the Raptor etc....


Well cabo if it helps my main BOV is a GMC Yukon XL. I paid 12' cash for it with 85K miles. It has a 6.0 engine and on HWY drives I get around 18 MPG fully loaded with my family and gear. It is also 4WD and I have yet to get stuck (the long wheelbase helps) hunting craggy roads here in CO. For 20K you can get a newer one with fewer miles! Hit craigslist. Not sure where you are but southwest US (PHX, Vegas, SoCal) has lots of em reasonably priced cause 4WD isn't a huge demand since it never snows! Even if you gotta fly somewhere for 3 or 400 bucks if you save thousands its worth it. Plus makes for a fun drive seeing Merica! I also recommend nitto terra grappler tires. Lotsa tread for off road but they also run smooth and quiet on pavement. Best big truck tire I've ever ran.


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## deetheivy

Hey NaeKid,
 It's like everyone got together and was like lets mess with NaeKid and totally not stick to the discussion topic. How frustrating was this thread?

The older toyota 22rs were damn near indestructible. If they still use these then I would say any new toyota with that engine.

Did a little reseach and am not seeing any vehichles with that engine, so I guess I would go with the jeep.


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## HozayBuck

I guess I'll stick to my Ram 3500 Cummings 4x4 quad cab... It's not a rock crawler nor a mudder, But with the 120 gallon fuel capacity it will take me a min. of 1400 miles, yes I can put some added goodies on it like a winch and a wench D), I can pull my camper trailer and load the back down with preps.. 

It's very comfy and I feel very safe in it.. I went thru a keep it , sell it keepit stage for a long time but now I'm keeping it.

I've talked to NK many times about a Chevy "Burb" and I still think I'd like one made into a real War Wagon, But as to buying a near new one I'd have to think about that. I'd rather start with a newer one for sure but what?? 2000 thru 2012 ?

Originally in my chats with NK I thought about something like a 70's mod. but I think by the time it was where I wanted it I'd be out the cost of a newer one.. trade offs..always trade offs...

I envisioned pulling all the seats but the front altho I'd be tempted to replace the factory seats with something stronger and more conforming to the bod. 

With the seats out I could build in a bunk bed size bed, and a steel gun box under that and on the roof one of those really strong cargo racks so the "bedroom" wouldn't get cluttered up, I might put some lift to it but just high enough to get some tall rubber under her.

Kind of a one person rolling bedroom but I'd want it to be a 3/4 ton and the list goes on..

I found believe it or not a 1970 3/4 ton 4x4 burb here in TX, it belongs to a guy who just moved here, It's listed on Ebay... looked very clean not a restore, think he was asking 7K, I really thought about it! Still might if it's still around..

But in keeping with NK's OP I'd say my dodge is my go to BOV


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## Onebigelf

I have a small 4x4 pickup. On the short list is a Kawasaki KLR-650. Honda also makes good dual-sport bikes, but I have 2 close friends that are within 20 miles of me that have KLRs. That allows us to gang-up for stocking spare parts.

John


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## ZangLussuria

http://www.tigervehicles.com/tiger-models/

I'm interested in the Malayan HT or the Bengal.


----------



## NaeKid

ZangLussuria said:


> http://www.tigervehicles.com/tiger-models/
> 
> I'm interested in the Malayan HT or the Bengal.


Hadn't heard of that one before ... so, yes, I clicked the link.

Looks like these are "motorhomes" based on truck-frames instead of van-based. All the major manufacturers seem to be covered, Ford, Dodge, Chevy ... Very nice. Remove the pickup box, bolt-down the camper and go ...


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## Shammua

sgtrunningfool said:


> I have thought about getting an older vehicle and stripping all non essentials out. Pull out AC and thinks like that. Just get it down to absolute basics


No matter what vehicle you get and modify, NEVER EVER EVER EVER pull out the A/C, leave it in and use the A/C compressor as onboard air. SO easy to do and it's made to run off the current vehicles wiring power system.

Also about the Jeep Rubicon, there was mention that the axle housings bend easy. That is the lower end wranglers that are running the Dana 30 front and Dana 35 rear axles. The Rubicon runs Dana 40 axles front and rear and are MUCH tougher and can take a beating.
If you want a bullet proof wrangler build that has everything on it you need and isn't some insane professional crawler just let me know I will build it out for you. 

I have an 2004 F-350 with V10(I should have gotten diesel) crew cab 4x4. It came with Camper package, off road package, plow package, and some other stuff I didn't pay attention to. This thing is a beast, it now has a Ranch hand front bumper and took out a deer at 75mph and I have the ever so slightest dent in the bumper, no other damage except deer all over the truck. It also has a 5 inch lift and running 35 inch tires. This is my primary BOV, and we will be taking pictures and logging the build out for safe BOV (Bullet proofing) once we get started on it. Oh yeah it has a shell on back too. Tons of room in cab, plenty of storage in cab and in back, it can take a beating and keep on ticking, does OK on gas, and it can go anywhere I need it to so far.
With lift and tires I can hit 4 feet of water before I have to worry about air intake. Center of gravity is still low enough it doesn't sway in heavy wind or at crazy angles doesn't feel like it's going to tip.
I'll have to find a pic and post it up real soon. It's my Zombie truck.


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## Shammua

*My BOV*

I cheated and use FB to post pic. 
here is link to image of my family BOV currently

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152855636505192&set=o.72382798603&type=1&theater


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## readytogo

*My BOV*

Giving the situation, it has to be simple, easy to repair, fuel economy and able to pull a small utility trailer, we all have to remember that this will be a shtf scenario, were practicality will be a most, not brute force. I had a VW and a Chevy van, and I fill like a ******* for selling them.
.


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## ZangLussuria

NaeKid said:


> Hadn't heard of that one before ... so, yes, I clicked the link.
> 
> Looks like these are "motorhomes" based on truck-frames instead of van-based. All the major manufacturers seem to be covered, Ford, Dodge, Chevy ... Very nice. Remove the pickup box, bolt-down the camper and go ...


I like a truck based camper instead of the van based ones. Though the Tiger designs appear to put it in as Class C. Either that or I go for a Roadtrek Class B but off road capabilities isnt great or none at all.
Since the Tiger ones don't have the truck bed itself, t sits lower on the truck frame.


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## HamiltonFelix

I sure see lots of cool vehicles in this thread. But the OT was "what can you buy from a dealer now that will make a good BOV?" 

First, of course, decide your BOV needs. If my BOV only needs to get me up a two lane backtop road, then my old P71 Crown Vic will do. It's "cop car tough," with good cooling, push bars and durable construction. But I'm guessing your definition of BOV means something that can go up in the hills, so a long low rear drive sedan is out the running. Heck, our front drive 2007 Corolla is better in snow. We're likely talking 4x4 and a good one. 

If it's big, let's go with heavy duty diesel 4x4 pickup (perhaps with canopy or even camper) or Suburban (I've been in some interesting places and Done Things with the 1996 K2500 Suburban I've owned since new). If it's smaller, let's go with a 4x4 that has a frame and is sturdy but is somewhat smaller, say Toyota Four Runner or Jeep Rubicon. Smaller, yet, go with a good Subaru. I would avoid the "tinkertoy" SUV's like Escape and RAV4 and the like. (I have a special hatred for 2009 Escape Hybrid, because they forced these PC pieces of $**t on us at work and they cannot do the job that the 95 Bronco, 87 Jimmy and 79 Jimmy did just fine.) Those things will not survive hard use. 

Buy a good BOV from a dealer: go as heavy duty as you can, extra cooling, big charging system, etc. If you have money, but not the wrenching skills, there are options out there. The rest of us will buy older rigs and fix 'em up. 

Whatever you buy, make sure it can be supported. Common makes with parts available everywhere are a big plus.


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## helicopter5472

readytogo, Cool pics, I grew up seeing and driving some of these. Easy to fix yes, but try to find the parts today, you bust an axle after SHTF its junk unless you live in a time warp and can find these type of spares. But then if you could go back to that time USA was USA and we didn't have a dictator.


----------



## ZangLussuria

Used to have an Isuzu 2.5L 4x2 pickup.
I just wish that they make the Ford F150 Raptor with a diesel engine the way Dodge is headed.

http://www.trucktrend.com/roadtests/pickup/163_1308_2014_ram_1500_diesel_first_look/index.html

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2013/02/we-drive-ram-1500s-diesel-in-a-jeep.html


----------



## NaeKid

ZangLussuria said:


> Used to have an Isuzu 2.5L 4x2 pickup.
> I just wish that they make the Ford F150 Raptor with a diesel engine the way Dodge is headed.
> 
> http://www.trucktrend.com/roadtests/pickup/163_1308_2014_ram_1500_diesel_first_look/index.html
> 
> http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2013/02/we-drive-ram-1500s-diesel-in-a-jeep.html


I am still waiting to see the diesel-motor in the Jeep JK here in NorthAmerica .. they "allow" it in European and Australian markets, but, not here ...


----------



## Shammua

NaeKid said:


> I am still waiting to see the diesel-motor in the Jeep JK here in NorthAmerica .. they "allow" it in European and Australian markets, but, not here ...


I was very heavy in the Jeep Community a while back and had the honor of meeting some really cool folks that worked at Jeep, on the other hand the sad news is that they dont have any near future plans of making a wrangler in a diesel. Although there are companies out there that will do the conversion for a chunk of change... :/


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## helicopter5472

Shammua said:


> I was very heavy in the Jeep Community a while back and had the honor of meeting some really cool folks that worked at Jeep, on the other hand the sad news is that they dont have any near future plans of making a wrangler in a diesel. Although there are companies out there that will do the conversion for a chunk of change... :/


Ah just a little engineering and you will have it made. When I was in my twenties we took an old Toyota FJ and put in a Chevrolet stroker 355, The best part was the emblem I made for the grill "TOYLET" :eyebulge:


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## Shammua

mike_dippert said:


> Rubi's use Dana 44 axles, I don't even know of a Dana 40.
> The TJ tubes and outers were the same size as the 30 axle. Only the center differential was bigger to accommodate the larger ring and pinion gears. The biggest reason to swap out a D35 is the C-clip axle shafts. As far as TJ's go, a D30 housing is equal to a D44 housing. A high pinion D30 out of an XJ is actually stronger than a D44 due to the reverse cut gears in the front application.
> 
> JK's housings (mainly front) are relatively weaker. I believe they have thinner wall tubes. It isn't a problem unless you run 33+ tires. There are several weld-on truss/brace & sleeve kits available.
> 
> Since the purpose of this thread is vehicles with a warranty and factory equipment, only JK's with stock tires matter though.
> 
> '12+ JK Rubi is a beast for an off-the-line vehicle.
> Maybe an AEV Brute. Those have warranties don't they?
> 
> I'm anxious to see the new Tacoma/Hilux US offering.


Meh its been a while since I messed with Jeeps and couldn't remember exactly the axle. I knew it was Dana 40's but couldn't remember that it was a 44 exactly. As for the housings, the 44's are for sure stronger, I haven't ever heard of someone cracking the axle housing on a Dana 44, but on the Dana 30 and 35 I have come across that plenty. That is one of the biggest reason to upgrade.
One of my neighbors trussed up his Dana 35 and said it was just as tough as a Dana 44, especially after he changed the gears in it as well. lol First time out and he broke the axle housing and blew all the gears... On a side note I personally believe his craftsmanship had a lot to do with it. But the main point is I haven't seen anyone feel the need to truss up a Dana 44, if they were going to do that, then they would go with a Ford 8 bolt, or Dana 60 or something of that line. THen again that is my experience and I in NO WAY claim to be the end all be all.


----------



## NaeKid

Shammua said:


> But the main point is I haven't seen anyone feel the need to truss up a Dana 44, if they were going to do that, then they would go with a Ford 8 bolt, or Dana 60 or something of that line. THen again that is my experience and I in NO WAY claim to be the end all be all.


TNT-Customs makes a front Dana44 Truss for the Jeep because there is a need for it ...


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## Grape Ape

Toyota 4 runner, Landcruiser or the Sequoia

I think any Subaru while a great vehicle would lose some points for it's size, as mentioned before if it becomes necessary to push your way through debris or even pull a fallen tree from the road you may be hindered by the smaller size. 

I thought of the Mercedes G-wagon, in their day they were a beast that would do anything. But the money needed to purchase a base model could be put towards other preps. Same with a unimog, plus seriously how many of us can see the mog as a daily driver (me) but they are not really a viable daily driver for most people. If you are gonna go with a mog it would probably end up as a special type vehicle only used occasionally and if you go there then you can for much less money just get a mil surplus deuce and a half or 5 ton and have the ultimate bug out vehicle.

The trucks would be nice if you have an over head camper on them and it is fully equipped for comfort and convenience. But the issue is the vehicle is a daily driver so I would steer away from the trucks. I would go with the GMC Yukon, the Chevy Tahoe or the Chevy Suburban. They all can be outfitted with bigger motors, 4x4, and all the niceties you would want in a daily driver. They also all come with a rather large towing capacity so you can hook a trailer full of preps or personal items as needed depending on the situation and have your stuff with you. Yes you can do the same with a truck but one of these not only pulls the trailer but it gives you a nice place out of the weather to sleep when the seats are folded up you are in out of the elements. For a SHTF situation that will be nice to have the security until you arrive at your BOL. If it is a weather, fire, or other situation you can drive to a Walmart parking lot out of the danger area and have a place to sleep while having the availability of a 24 hour walmart for bathroom duties and such.

That said even with all of the great options I would not choose one. I would not choose any vehicle with an OBDII computer system, not for the EMP issues or SHTF issues but because one sensor could go bad and it will cause the system to shut down leaving you stranded. Yes they do have a limp mode built in to them that will let you drive your vehicle but if it is loaded with gear and pulling a trailer you are not going to go anywhere. The power is limited to protect the engine so you are stuck. Having a full coverage warranty is nice for everyday repairs when you can rent a car or get a loaner from the dealer while they fix yours but if the dealer is in the same trouble you are from the issue you are escaping then yep your OBDII vehicle is a paper weight.


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## HozayBuck

I love my 3500 Cummings and with 4WD I guess it could take me into places I wouldn't go unless life dictated the lack of regard for paint and body damage..
NK and I used to e mail about BOV's and at that time and still I wanted an older "Burb" Older don't bother me because I'd have the eng rebuilt, as well as pretty much everything else over a period of time, But i want a stick shift, try finding one of those! That leaves paying somebody to put the stick shift and clutch system in it for me since my tools consist of a hammer with one claw broken off and a screw driver/ chisel and a 12 inch crescent.

With the Burb I can sleep in it, haul a lot of gear on the top in cargo racks, I would want skid plates and a slight lift, I don't like jacked up vehicles off road, seen a few DOA's due to side hill rollovers.

For me getting to where I want to go regardless of SHTF or just "I wanna go " is most important, I can build a camp to live in with fair comfort, I don't need to haul living quarters along with me, but with the Burb I can live out of it just fine.

I don't know jack about lockers, rockers, danas or any of that, I just want a good motor and tranny with 4wd and a winch and a wench. A small chain saw and a winch will get me so lost I can't find me.

One idea I thought I had that I now see all the time is people with off road vehicles having them painted with bed liner,, tuff stuff! and don't reflect light!

That's my input on the subject except to say back to the OP, any vehicle bought today will have so many non necessary electronic gadgets that failure is a given. 

My old 71 Chevy pu was great, raise the hood and there it was..Motor, radiator, battery..that was it and even I could almost keep it moving. My 08 Cummings? hahahahaha right!


----------



## Tirediron

OK Hozay I have an 84 4x4 suburban, what engine do you want in front of the 4 speed manual??


----------



## helicopter5472

Tirediron said:


> OK Hozay I have an 84 4x4 suburban, what engine do you want in front of the 4 speed manual??


A 503 big block, not to big, but enough to get you up to Pikes Peak


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## HozayBuck

Tirediron said:


> OK Hozay I have an 84 4x4 suburban, what engine do you want in front of the 4 speed manual??


350 plain Jane works for me...I'm not interested in 4 MPG lol

Did they put one out in 84 with a 4 speed?


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## spregan

I have a 2012 RAM 1500 4x4. It has the RAM box option on it, and the boxes swallow a fair amount of gear. I also have a locking rolling aluminum box cover to store more gear. It's a crew cab to hold the whole family. It's range kind of stinks though. It's got a 25 gallon tank and the best mileage on one tank I've gotten is 417 mi. Usually it's about 320-350 miles per tank. We live in eastern MT, and BOL and family are less than 300 miles so its fine for me. But if someone lived where they needed to travel far to 'get out of dodge', it could leave them stranded if they didn't bring, or couldn't find, gas.


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## HozayBuck

This one would do!! for a starter project

http://houston.craigslist.org/cto/3838476787.html


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## d_saum

HozayBuck said:


> This one would do!! for a starter project
> 
> http://houston.craigslist.org/cto/3838476787.html


Holy freakin perfect zombie apocalypse vehicle!!!! :beercheer: I like it! The only issue for me would be the "No title"...


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## ZangLussuria

What's available is dependent on which part of the world you're from.
Luckily, where I'm from, diesel vehicles and diesel fuel are common and available.
My family has about 3 cars in diesel. 1 2.5L Isuzu pick-up and 2 minivans.
The only gasoline vehicles we have are my mom's RAV4 and my CRV.
My uncle used to drive the diesel Toyota Hi-Lux.
My cousin has the Ford Ranger.

Almost every family has 1-3 diesel vehicles besides the gas ones.

Just a few diesel vehicles available here. There are other makes and models but these are the most common/popular.

*Toyota Hilux in 3.0L diesel.*
Stock.









Basic mod with shell and lift.









Extreme mod.









This is a *Toyota Fortuner*. It's an SUV that's on the Hilux platform.

















Then there's Ford here that are Mazdas:
*Ford Ranger:*
Wildtrak edition. You can get this model right off the showroom floor









Ranger mod:









Ford Everest:
As with the Toyota Fortuner, this SUV is based on the Ford Ranger pick-up.









Mitsubishi Strada:









Mitsubishi Montero Sport:
Like the others, this is based on the Strada pick-up.









What I like about these, they're smaller than even the F-150/1500 class pick-ups and SUVs. They're comparable to the Ford Explorer in size yet they come in both gasoline and diesel.

I find the F250/2500 series of trucks and SUVs a bit big for a daily driver as these were the only choices with decent diesel options. Add the traffic and the small roads here, these choices are practical. Not too big of an engine as well but good torque so they all have great fuel economy.


----------



## helicopter5472

HozayBuck said:


> 350 plain Jane works for me...I'm not interested in 4 MPG lol
> 
> Did they put one out in 84 with a 4 speed?


I am willing to bet that a 502 cu in will get you better mpg that a 350. That suburban is a heavy machine, your pushing that 350 a lot harder, add all your family and preps you will get your 4mpg. Sounds silly but with more HP and torque that heavy toy will give your better mileage. I am not saying your going to get great mileage but around 12 to 14 mpg. Yes they had a 350 in some of them, but most 3/4T came with a 454 BB. (find one, 454, rebuild it with HP parts). If you are going only in a flat land area, (no mountains, big long hills) you could get by with a 350. If I had a 350 I would build it up more hp/torque.


----------



## NaeKid

ZangLussuria said:


> Extreme mod.


I would love to build-up an Icelandic Expedition Vehicle ... :factor10:


----------



## Stryker

I have a Dodge Ram 3500 Cummins Turbo Diesel, it will go where I want to and I can go over 600 miles on one tank. Seats 6 comfortably and more storage than any SUV. Just carry some chains and I could pull a house off its foundation. Plus diesel means no spark plugs, which means no worry about EMP's putting it out of commission


----------



## HamiltonFelix

Don't stop worrying about EMP until you confirm you have NO unshielded electronics. Modern diesels have electronic fuel control and engine management. I have seriously considered a mid-90's Cummins Dodge because it would have a mechanical rack delivering the fuel.

Nice truck, though. Gotta respect a good workhorse.


----------



## Geek999

Are there new vehicles that one could expect to run after an EMP? New vehicles tend to have lots of computers, so even if you have a diesel, most of them would be disables by an EMP, which is one reason for the appeal of older models. New models are great for anything short of an EMP.


----------



## FrankW

Geek999 said:


> Are there new vehicles that one could expect to run after an EMP? .


yes, essentially all of them.

I have tried to dispel this myth many times but no one listens to an actual scientist who makes his living researching such issues and presenting them to senior decision makers.

bottom line is , the popular book "one second after" as far as the reaction of vehicles goes, was entertainment.
I LOVE the man as an author but we have to understand that he writes fiction.

The "Experts" quoted by Foerstchen have little or no actual knowledge of this subject and were generalists who in any event likely didnt even say what Foerstchen claimed.

Both based on my own expertise, which just to be sure, I double checked *IN PERSON face to face *with one of the physicists who wrote the report and conducted the testing for congress on this issue I can tell you this:

-A vehicle that is switched off will be unaffected.
- A minority of vehicles exposed to signifcant EMP while driving, will shut themselves off, but can be restarted w/ no ill effects.

Why is this?
because modern vehciles are already shielded against the constant electrical impuleses in a car, from todays powerful alternators

While those fields are much weaker than EMP they are much closer and they DO occur over the cars lifetime,.. so modern vehicle electronics are much more robust than believed in the prepper community.

For prepping purposes its obviously most important to have the most reliable vehicle possible.
usually that means a new or newer vehicle.

(I know which counter arguments are coming and i could dispel them ahead of time but I have already spent hours writing carefully vetted posts on this, so I dont want to spend the time on it again)

PS: Welcome to the board


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## spregan

Good to know BlueZ


----------



## Tirediron

And yet again I call Bull$hit starfish prime shut down simple point ignition vehicles, by over charging the condenser . todays fragile ECMs would fail catastrophically given that amount of stray wattage, Try it hook a welder to your ECM running or not. Did your super genius not notice that the ECM is connected to power all the time. 

I have yet to see your real world argument hold water, kind of like your optima dry batteries (which don't exist,they are AGM) will last for ever post.

failure is not about fields it is about bursts.vract:


----------



## FrankW

Tirediron said:


> And yet again I call Bull$hit starfish prime shut down simple point ignition vehicles, .....
> 
> :


Sigh. 
Starfish prime was a 1.44 MT bomb at 250 miles (!)

For exmaple the biggest bombs we accuse North Korea of is about 1-2% that size..
Just to use one exmaple.

Dont you think the people who do this for a living have access to the dats from this and other (the soviet) tests?


----------



## FrankW

mike_dippert said:


> How does an EMP compare to a lightning strike or contact with a live power line?


Its different .
EMP is a field that changes direction and so induces voltage.
Its a function of the explosions photons interacting with Earths magnetic field.
When you run a changing magnetic field thru electronics it will interact with the valence electrons of the conductors involved.

These mobile valence electrons produce the flux.
When you have enough flux you will induce a current which is the mechjanism of damage from EMP.

A Lighting strike and a powerline overflow with electrons.
Those electrons running thru you to a ground is what causes the damage.
it is on an entirely different class of damage.


----------



## FrankW

PS: NO one here is claiming that EMP isnt a significant threat to our infrastrcuture and the computers that run it.
The point I am making is that _our vehicles_ are not nearly as vulnerable as most believe.


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## Geek999

Well, the reason for my question is it seems to me that the appeal of older vehicles would be IF they were not vulnerable to EMP while new vehicles were vulnerable. Otherwise new vehicles enjoy all the advances that have occurred over time and would be great for BOV purposes.

IMO one of the big issues would be range. Among new vehicles, what has the greatest range?


----------



## FrankW

Anything with a Diesel .

A 1995 VW Passat TDI Sedan can go 900 miles on one tank of fuel if driven at reasonable hiway speeds.
Diesel also has the advantage of being much more stable in storage.


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## Geek999

I think 1995 Passat qualifies as a used car at this point, being 18 years old.


----------



## d_saum

BlueZ said:


> Both based on my own expertise, which just to be sure, I double checked *IN PERSON face to face *with one of the physicists who *wrote the report and conducted the testing for congress on this issue I can tell you this:
> 
> -A vehicle that is switched off will be unaffected.
> - A minority of vehicles exposed to signifcant EMP while driving, will shut themselves off, but can be restarted w/ no ill effects.*


One of the things that is ALWAYS overlooked in that report is the fact that the testing was started at the LOWEST level, and gradually increased until vehicles were affected. Also... those vehicles were not purchased for testing. They were borrowed from other government agencies and any damage had to be repaired and paid for, hence, the reason they ceased testing as soon as they saw any sign of EMP interference.

Care to address that point this time around BlueZ? To the newguy, Geek999... the only thing we KNOW about an EMP attack, or a CME is this: We really don't know squat, so why not prepare for the worst? That's why my title thing is "EMP Freaker outer"... I figure if I prepare my vehicle to be affected by an EMP/CME in the worst possible way, I'm prepared for it. If you take BlueZ at his word, and he's wrong... well.. then you are poop creek with no means of propulsion. Better safe than sorry I say. :beercheer:


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## Tirediron

d_saum said:


> One of the things that is ALWAYS overlooked in that report is the fact that the testing was started at the LOWEST level, and gradually increased until vehicles were affected. Also... those vehicles were not purchased for testing. They were borrowed from other government agencies and any damage had to be repaired and paid for, hence, the reason they ceased testing as soon as they saw any sign of EMP interference.
> 
> Care to address that point this time around BlueZ? To the newguy, Geek999... the only thing we KNOW about an EMP attack, or a CME is this: We really don't know squat, so why not prepare for the worst? That's why my title thing is "EMP Freaker outer"... I figure if I prepare my vehicle to be affected by an EMP/CME in the worst possible way, I'm prepared for it. If you take BlueZ at his word, and he's wrong... well.. then you are poop creek with no means of propulsion. Better safe than sorry I say. :beercheer:


well that sort of changes the whole absolutely accurate gov't test program doesn't it??

and the part in purple is about all we know about EMP.

How ever in my experience if the Gov't say don't worry it pays to worry


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## FrankW

d_saum said:


> One of the things that is ALWAYS overlooked in that report is the fact that the testing was started at the LOWEST level, and gradually increased until vehicles were affected. Also... those vehicles were not purchased for testing. They were borrowed from other government agencies and any damage had to be repaired and paid for, hence, the reason they ceased testing as soon as they saw any sign of EMP interference.
> 
> Care to address that point this time around BlueZ? To the newguy, Geek999... the only thing we KNOW about an EMP attack, or a CME is this: We really don't know squat, so why not prepare for the worst? That's why my title thing is "EMP Freaker outer"... I figure if I prepare my vehicle to be affected by an EMP/CME in the worst possible way, I'm prepared for it. If you take BlueZ at his word, and he's wrong... well.. then you are poop creek with no means of propulsion. Better safe than sorry I say. :beercheer:


You make some good points. 

However please allow me another attempt to rephrase.

No one is saying there will be no effect. The point is that perceptions are all out of proportion on EMP when it comes to vehicles.

My primary job is to take scientific literature and "translate" it to senior decisions makers who are generally laymen.
not just to its general meaning but to its nuances as it applies to their operations as well.

It is very difficult and error prone for even the most intelligent laymen to properly interpret proportional risk from such studies on their own.

Usually they will latch on to isolated factoids and tend to extreme conclusion such as "no risk" or "the sky is falling".

For comparison when you talk to non gun people about guns they have the craziest misconceptions, mostly from the movies right?
And if Massad Ayoub was trying to explain it to them many of them still might not listen.

This is a parralel situation here , where most folks have the wild misconceptions from fiction as well.

I have already spent hours in previous threads crafting 100% accurate and correct posts attempting to put into easy chunks a proportional explanation of what human beings know about this subject

Such is what we must use as a basis of a risk-benefit calculation.

I will not ad additional replies and respectfully refer folks to look at the last thread on this subject. 

PS: Myself and everyone involved in this general subject professionally, generally drive late model vehicles..


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## spregan

As for the question of range, I agree with diesel. But the new diesels with urea systems have really lost several mpg. I had a 2006 VW TDI Jetta which got on average 50 mpg highway at 70 mph. My friend has a new TDI Jetta that gets 40 mpg if he's lucky. Are the new urea systems really saving the environment if the diesel usage has increased?


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## Geek999

My most recent disaster experience was Hurricane Sandy. The ability to get anywhere was severely limited, first by fallen trees and then by Gas Stations being either without power, or without fuel.

I claim no expertise on EMP effects, (though I believe that is why old vehicles get chosen as BOVs) but saw first hand how quickly a week without fuel disrupted the area. It seems to me that range as opposed to mpg, is really important.

Most cars cannot go a week between fillups with normal use. That is a point of vulnerability.


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## Geek999

So if we accept BlueZ's assertion that modern vehicles will not be harmed by an EMP and we get back to the OPs question, what current production models have more than a 500 mile range without modification?


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## Stryker

Geek999 said:


> So if we accept BlueZ's assertion that modern vehicles will not be harmed by an EMP and we get back to the OPs question, what current production models have more than a 500 mile range without modification?


Probably any diesel truck, as I said before in the post, I have a 2003 Dodge Ram 3500 Cummins, I average between 20-21mpg. City driving I average about 650 miles per tank. Highway I can probably squeeze closer to 750-800 per tank. I have an 800 mile road trip coming up next weekend so I will let you all know how it does then. And there are modifications that can be done to most dodge cummins like putting in a programmer that can help make the truck more fuel efficient, also I plan on putting a better air intake on my truck, already have an upgraded exhaust, the easier air gets in to cool and faster the hot stuff comes out the better it will be on fuel economy as well.


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## don04348

Any vehicle needs fuel, make sure they all will use FLEX/FUEL as tagged on the gas tank or rear tailgate. Henry 
Ford's first autos used alcohol that could be found behind most barns back then, but now you may need a vehicle that can run on it.


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## Navajo

I have a stock 01 Suburban 1500.

Good tires and a little careful skill and I surprise a lot of people when we show up on mountain tops all over Idaho and MT. 

Nothing like pulling up to a bunch of kids in Jeeps and a SUV full of kids and picnic supplies get pulled out.

Learn to drive and a nice long range conformable vehicle will do just fine. We are getting ready to spend two weeks traveling and camping along HWY 1 camping all the way from Canada to Mexico, with plenty of room and no trailer necessary

Vehicle has 195,000 miles on it and it just keeps running.


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