# Things just getting bad around here



## TNmedicman (Nov 8, 2009)

This past Saturday one of my Police officers was killed in the LOD by a scum bag robbing a pawn shop. This is just another example of how society has deteriorated. I know before anyone says it Its his job to be out there and to take the risk but this is ridiculous. I as a Medic work with these officers day in and day out and see what they deal with on a daily basis.

The guy that shot him is a career criminal with a history of armed robbery and theft. He was raised in the system. I mean by that that his mother never worked and had no father in his life. He lived his whole life on welfare and public assistance. This is what the society of entitlements has produced. Please people if you know a first responder or not, thank them. The police might make you mad by giving you tickets but the are doing there job and it is a thankless low paying job. I will come down off of my :soapbox1: now.

Services Announced for Sgt. Tim Chapin | chapin, sgt, tim - WTVC NewsChannel 9: Chattanooga News, Weather, Radar, Sports, Lottery

I ask if you believe in a higher being to say a prayer for this mans family. He had a wife and two children that miss him very much. :rantoff:


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## horseman09 (Mar 2, 2010)

TN, very sorry to hear about your friend. Gosh. The sorrow his family will feel for the rest of their lives. Damned shame.

While I certainly don't excuse the scum bag that killed him, you are right -- America adopted a system foisted on us by LBJ and his lib buddies on the hill. His "Great Society", ending poverty in our time has turned us into a nation of beggars; and we ain't seen nothing yet.


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## Cahri (Feb 18, 2011)

TNmedicman said:


> This past Saturday one of my Police officers was killed in the LOD by a scum bag robbing a pawn shop. This is just another example of how society has deteriorated. I know before anyone says it Its his job to be out there and to take the risk but this is ridiculous. I as a Medic work with these officers day in and day out and see what they deal with on a daily basis.
> 
> The guy that shot him is a career criminal with a history of armed robbery and theft. He was raised in the system. I mean by that that his mother never worked and had no father in his life. He lived his whole life on welfare and public assistance. This is what the society of entitlements has produced. Please people if you know a first responder or not, thank them. The police might make you mad by giving you tickets but the are doing there job and it is a thankless low paying job. I will come down off of my :soapbox1: now.
> 
> ...


Kudos, my prayers, love and wisdom, always and will plant another seed that will feed another brave soul who is worthier than myself (I'm just a gardener).


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## TrackerRat (Mar 24, 2011)

Thats horrible. Yes they accept the risk but that doesnt mean it makes it okay or they should have planned for it. There have been alot of officers shot and killed lately throughout this country. Cops do what they do because they truly want to help people. As their career progresses society molds them from soft hearted to solid rock and they can lose track of their purpose. People dont understand that these are the reasons cops can act the way they do. His fellow officers now have to greave his death. They will become less and less tolerant of society and become thick walled so their family and friends dont have to deal with their untimely death. They see a different world from that of Joe Plumber.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Sheep and Wolves*

The world is made up of Sheep and Wolves. When I was sworn in the first time as a deputy Sheriff, my training officer gave me this peice of advise.

A peace officers job is to stand between the Sheep and the wolves. You can't be a Sheep and do the job but you can't be a wolf either! A good cop is a guard dog. He will jeliouslly defend the Sheep but to do so he must be in charge. That requires nipping and barking at them to steer them away from danger. The wolf , he catches by the throat when ever he can !

Rest in Peace Brother !


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## TNmedicman (Nov 8, 2009)

Thanks for the comments. Everyone please keep the family in your thought and prayers as we lay him to rest today.


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## Ponce (May 3, 2009)

WTSHTF those in uniform will be my greatest fear because I won't know which one really care for you and which ones, under the color of uniform, are only on the lookout for things that they can take for their own family.

I live isolated and away from everyone and have only one rule......good or bad, just stay the hell away from me.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*When*



Ponce said:


> WTSHTF those in uniform will be my greatest fear because I won't know which one really care for you and which ones, under the color of uniform, are only on the lookout for things that they can take for their own family.
> 
> I live isolated and away from everyone and have only one rule......good or bad, just stay the hell away from me.


When the police are out of commision and the local sheriffs deputys and the state police are no longer patroling, LOOK OUT!

With them will go the last of civilized sociaty and law.

You don't have to fear them, fear what comes when they are gone !


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## Salekdarling (Aug 15, 2010)

I'm aware of the amount of police officers killed in the line of duty this year. It is rather alarming. I hope it does not get worse as the year(s) goes by.

I admit it does make me nervous (being a cadet with no field training yet) but with the constant, updated training and my learned awareness of my surroundings, I feel my chance of going home to my family at the end of the day is high...but of course, not guaranteed. That's what I get for picking this line of work! Keeping a level head is key and training and experience can only get me so far. Sometimes pure luck is all you have. :dunno:

Rest in Peace Brother. Thank you for your service.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Cadet*



Salekdarling said:


> I'm aware of the amount of police officers killed in the line of duty this year. It is rather alarming. I hope it does not get worse as the year(s) goes by.
> 
> I admit it does make me nervous (being a cadet with no field training yet) but with the constant, updated training and my learned awareness of my surroundings, I feel my chance of going home to my family at the end of the day is high...but of course, not guaranteed. That's what I get for picking this line of work! Keeping a level head is key and training and experience can only get me so far. Sometimes pure luck is all you have. :dunno:
> 
> Rest in Peace Brother. Thank you for your service.


Do you know the most important thing an officer must know when he is on patrol?


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## Salekdarling (Aug 15, 2010)

BillM said:


> Do you know the most important thing an officer must know when he is on patrol?


Hope there is no wrong answer here! I could talk to you FOREVER about the job. I do enjoy learning from experienced officers. 

I didn't know there was just one "most important thing" to an officer. Officer safety is #1 along with having common sense and discipline. And know that ANYONE can kill you. Always be aware. Even Grandma can and will kill you if she had the opportunity.

Hope I'm not missing anything. :O I bet you I'm missing the most important thing! Lol! I am super tired.


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## Clarice (Aug 19, 2010)

My heart goes out to his family. May God keep them in His tender loving hands.


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## horseman09 (Mar 2, 2010)

BillM said:


> You don't have to fear them, fear what comes when they are gone !


BillM, lots of folks in New Orleans would disagree. As a civilian, I at least have a fair chance in dealing with a bad guy who is also a civilian -- I'm almost certainly screwed trying to deal with a bad cop. If he doesn't get me, the justice system will, because he's a *cop*.

Lots of good cops out there, but there are unfortunately, lots of arrogant, elitist Barneys-with-an-attitude types also. For example, here in PA, just watch how State Troopers drive. More often than not, they drive like hotshot teenagers. I'd get lots of tickets if I drove like them. They should be setting an example instead of flouting their obvious immunity. And check out some bars where they congregate. Can you say DUI? But actually getting charged is extremely rare. The cop fraternity.

From what you've said, your friend who was killed was a great LEO and family man, and his death is truly a tragedy, But collectively, the LEO community badly needs to clean up their act.


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## aluminum (Mar 29, 2009)

horseman09 said:


> BillM, lots of folks in New Orleans would disagree. As a civilian, I at least have a fair chance in dealing with a bad guy who is also a civilian -- I'm almost certainly screwed trying to deal with a bad cop. If he doesn't get me, the justice system will, because he's a *cop*.
> 
> Lots of good cops out there, but there are unfortunately, lots of arrogant, elitist Barneys-with-an-attitude types also. For example, here in PA, just watch how State Troopers drive. More often than not, they drive like hotshot teenagers. I'd get lots of tickets if I drove like them. They should be setting an example instead of flouting their obvious immunity. And check out some bars where they congregate. Can you say DUI? But actually getting charged is extremely rare. The cop fraternity.
> 
> From what you've said, your friend who was killed was a great LEO and family man, and his death is truly a tragedy, But collectively, the LEO community badly needs to clean up their act.


I agree with you horseman09.... There are WAY too many examples of "bad apples" in the police/cop career field these days. If the so-called good cops actually existed, they would arrest and testify against those "bad apples". By remaining silent/doing nothing, they are 100% just as guilty as the "bad ones".

I know that there are actually good ones out there.... dont flame me people.... I also dont wish death on anyone, bad or good..... Prayer sent for the family of this officer.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*The most important thing*



Salekdarling said:


> Hope there is no wrong answer here! I could talk to you FOREVER about the job. I do enjoy learning from experienced officers.
> 
> I didn't know there was just one "most important thing" to an officer. Officer safety is #1 along with having common sense and discipline. And know that ANYONE can kill you. Always be aware. Even Grandma can and will kill you if she had the opportunity.
> 
> Hope I'm not missing anything. :O I bet you I'm missing the most important thing! Lol! I am super tired.


Always know your 1020 !

My first training officer would be patroling and explaining various police proceedures to me and would suddenly ask, "What's our 1020"?

If I couldn't tell him the exact 1020, he would ask , "if you had to call for backup or an ambulance, where would you tell them to come ?"


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*The Bad Cop*



horseman09 said:


> BillM, lots of folks in New Orleans would disagree. As a civilian, I at least have a fair chance in dealing with a bad guy who is also a civilian -- I'm almost certainly screwed trying to deal with a bad cop. If he doesn't get me, the justice system will, because he's a *cop*.
> 
> Lots of good cops out there, but there are unfortunately, lots of arrogant, elitist Barneys-with-an-attitude types also. For example, here in PA, just watch how State Troopers drive. More often than not, they drive like hotshot teenagers. I'd get lots of tickets if I drove like them. They should be setting an example instead of flouting their obvious immunity. And check out some bars where they congregate. Can you say DUI? But actually getting charged is extremely rare. The cop fraternity.
> 
> From what you've said, your friend who was killed was a great LEO and family man, and his death is truly a tragedy, But collectively, the LEO community badly needs to clean up their act.


I was a Deputy Sheriff and served in two administrations under two different Sheriffs.

I worked with city , state and federal law enforcement officers.

They ran the gambit from excellent to poor in their job performance, just like any other occupation.

The majority were average . A few were excellent , and very few were poor at the job.

The ones who were poor did not last very long. They were not tolerated by the rest of the officers. No one wanted to work with them. they would get you hurt or killed. They would get you into a law suit or embarrass you in front of the public.

The job just doesn't leave room for marginal or poor performance.

An officer walks a very narrow line between making a good legal arrest and a tactical mistake that could get him killed.

When I stopped a vehicle, I didn't know who they were but they knew exactly who I was. That automatically put me at a disadvantage.

I did not have unlimited authority. I had to have probable cause justifying every decision I made. Legally that is the way it should be. The citizen gets the advantage of the presumption of innocence. He has rights and the officer must respect them.

I always opted to give the citizen the benefit of a doubt if the violation was borderline. If he is a criminal, he will do it again and I will get him the next time. I never wrote a citation that did not result in a guilty plea or a conviction. Many were plea bargained down but nobody was found to be not guilty .

An officer must be able to make an instant decision and act on it.
He does not have the luxury of extended contemplation.

He is frightened in situations that are potentially dangerous just like anyone else but doesn't have the choice of walking away.

He can not show fear. No one else is coming .

He is taught in his training that it takes a minium of three officers to clear a house. Many times he will do it alone because backup is not available.

Even though he may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, he has to suck it up and do it anyway. He at least should get credit for that!

In a shootout, he must consider things like background, not just the background behind the bad guy but the background behind his self.

I knew one officer who got shot moving from cover to a point of concealment just because the background immediately behind him was an elementary school.

He wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer but on that day he shined !


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## dc300a (Apr 4, 2011)

> The ones who were poor did not last very long. They were not tolerated by the rest of the officers. No one wanted to work with them. they would get you hurt or killed. They would get you into a law suit or embarrass you in front of the public.


Absolutely. Contrary to popular belief, bad apples do not last long. Some officers are just poor officers and sometimes it takes longer to get rid of them through attrition and poor performance evaluations.

But the ones that are malicious or "bad" cops do not last long because nobody will work with them and eventually they get caught and fired quickly and charged if there was a crime commited.

Its a preconcieved notion that we all cover for each other...

My prayers go out for the officer and his family.. Stay safe out there folks!


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## Salekdarling (Aug 15, 2010)

BillM said:


> Always know your 1020 !
> 
> My first training officer would be patroling and explaining various police proceedures to me and would suddenly ask, "What's our 1020"?
> 
> If I couldn't tell him the exact 1020, he would ask , "if you had to call for backup or an ambulance, where would you tell them to come ?"


Ahh yes, ten codes are something I'm going to need to memorize. PA seems to be moving away from the ten codes but there are some universals.


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

dc300a said:


> Absolutely. Contrary to popular belief, bad apples do not last long. Some officers are just poor officers and sometimes it takes longer to get rid of them through attrition and poor performance evaluations.
> 
> But the ones that are malicious or "bad" cops do not last long because nobody will work with them and eventually they get caught and fired quickly and charged if there was a crime commited.
> 
> ...


Absolutely. BillM, you nailed it.

From what I've seen, the "bad apples" turn bad pretty quickly and get drummed out pretty quickly, too. I would say within 6 months to a year out of training is as long as they last. Now, some might say that they could do a lot of damage within that period, but most captains see who is not working out and limit them to posts/shifts where they will not have an opportunity to bring down the department.

Now, we're not perfect. But most of us realize that we have a standard to uphold and are careful not to dishonor the badge or the job.

My heart, thoughts, and prayers go out to your friend. Just because we are willing to put our lives on the line, doesn't mean that chip should ever be cashed in.


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

Salekdarling said:


> Ahh yes, ten codes are something I'm going to need to memorize. PA seems to be moving away from the ten codes but there are some universals.


_Everyone_ is supposed to be going away from ten codes, but some departments are clinging to them as long as they can, mine being one of them. We had to work with a military department a few weeks ago, and it wasn't pretty.


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## BlueShoe (Aug 7, 2010)

I've been around a good while now and the bad apples (the bad attitude types) don't leave unless they want to. They pressure some to leave, but if they resist they don't fire them. If they stay long enough, they get promoted. I've had a room mate on one department and a grandfather was on Vice. They just move the bad apples around until they find a place that they do'nt cause too much trouble for the Sarge or Cap'n. And laws don't get enforced among cops. Not talking about bad attitudes on this issue, just everyday cops. They don't enforce laws on each other. It would harm their job and income. No cop wants to be that to another. 
In bad times, your freedoms depend on local police. Check with a guy named ferfal308 and see what it's like in post crash Argentina with the local cops and you'll get an idea of what you should expect.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

I had occasion to have an interaction with a young officer while attending a local city-sponsored event. The young officer and a number of his peers were being paid while off-duty to provide security.

I had parked in the wrong place and he strode over to tell me about it. He was overly forceful and a bit arrogant while dressed in what could have been mistaken as military attire. I was cool about it. No big deal. I'd just move my vehicle. I went to touch him on his elbow in a friendly gesture and he jerked away form me. Surprised, I said, "I'm not going to hurt you." His reply was that it was his training. 

I know most all of the cops in this department because we had worked together for so many years and were friendly if not friends. The reaction I received from this young officer bothered me. In fact, I told my wife, who was with me, that I was going back over and have a chat with him, but she said it might escalate. I just wanted him to know that he was wound too tight. He certainly needed to develop the skill to know friend from foe and to not treat everyone he meets like the later. 

We had a saying, "One Oh sh*t wipes out a hundred at-a-boys". That could apply to you guys out there with the badges, too. One bad experience by a citizen with a cop can taint a lifetime of good experiences. 

There has always been more or less a "us against them" attitude, but lately it just seems to have morphed into a culture that I find unsettling. Everyone seems to have a means to video an event now and maybe its just reported more. Regardless, some of the videos and news stories out there involving brutish behavior by LE towards citizens who didn't deserve it is alarming to say the least. You LEOs have the ability to screw up my day, week, or even my life on a whim, and I have no protection against you even if you are the one in the wrong. I miss the days of "Officer Friendly". Now I have some guy with his hair "high & tight" wearing subdued military garb with an attitude. 

Back to the OP... sorry for the loss of your friend. My department supplied all the medics for the local SWAT team, so I know of the close relationship.


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

Jezcruzen said:


> I had occasion to have an interaction with a young officer while attending a local city-sponsored event. The young officer and a number of his peers were being paid while off-duty to provide security.
> 
> I had parked in the wrong place and he strode over to tell me about it. He was overly forceful and a bit arrogant while dressed in what could have been mistaken as military attire. I was cool about it. No big deal. I'd just move my vehicle. I went to touch him on his elbow in a friendly gesture and he jerked away form me. Surprised, I said, "I'm not going to hurt you." His reply was that it was his training.
> 
> ...


That is a shame that you had that experience. You are exactly right that the one "oh shit" moment ruins reputations. I have always said that part of the reason for negative outlooks toward LEOs stems from the fact that people only ever see us when _something_ has gone wrong; that is why I go out of my way to stop and help people or thank them for doing positive things.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

Keep that attitude, Turtle. Its needed now more than ever.

If I were driving along and saw a cop in trouble, I wouldn't even have to think about stopping to help them. It would be automatic. 

If the "S" ever goes bad in this country, we will need each other - citizen & LEO. Who else could either one of us rely on? No one!

But the thugs have to be thrown out, not protected. 

Ya'll be safe out there!


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

Jezcruzen said:


> Keep that attitude, Turtle. Its needed now more than ever.
> 
> If I were driving along and saw a cop in trouble, I wouldn't even have to think about stopping to help them. It would be automatic.
> 
> ...


Thanks, bud. I figure that more than anything, my job is maintain a positive presence and supply a good example. There is a big push right now to orient more towards "community-based policing." Trying to get the officers out of the cars and talking to the neighborhoods and people under their protection.


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## mickbear (Apr 9, 2009)

what makes me so dang mad is, why is this OPS still alive?cop killers should be shot on site and left right there, no phone call to the family no nothing.kick'um in the ditch and move on.


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## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

Turtle said:


> Thanks, bud. I figure that more than anything, my job is maintain a positive presence and supply a good example. There is a big push right now to orient more towards "community-based policing." Trying to get the officers out of the cars and talking to the neighborhoods and people under their protection.


Which seems like a great idea to me---why not actually know the person, or be familiar with when that need comes about ---already stressed situations with a new face you aren't trusting isn't helping any situation, huh??


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

mickbear said:


> what makes me so dang mad is, why is this OPS still alive?cop killers should be shot on site and left right there, no phone call to the family no nothing.kick'um in the ditch and move on.


I have no love for any murderer but I think cops sometimes get a little too trigger happy when they know someone has shot one of their own... its like a license to kill for them. I have no problem with cops killing culprits in self-defense but there is a bar to measure those situations and it should be extremely high -- at least as high as it is for any other citizen and probably higher. Im not saying its not high... just agreeing that it should be high.


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

Jezcruzen said:


> If I were driving along and saw a cop in trouble, I wouldn't even have to think about stopping to help them. It would be automatic.


a couple winters ago I stopped to help a local municipality LEO because he had *buried* his car in the highway divide almost up to the windows, there was an easy access hardpoint on the vehicle to put my chain on and pull him out but he said that I "wasn't allowed to help"  his reasoning wasn't 'liability' like I thought, but 'public perception' :dunno:

2 hours later on the way back I saw he was still there, cruiser not running, windows fogged over... he was a little more receptive to getting the heck out


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## Ponce (May 3, 2009)

mickbear said:


> what makes me so dang mad is, why is this OPS still alive?cop killers should be shot on site and left right there, no phone call to the family no nothing.kick'um in the ditch and move on.


mick? and the same should be for cops that kills civilians when a good punch to the jaw should do the job.......there will be justice only when there is equal justice for all.


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## Salekdarling (Aug 15, 2010)

Community oriented policing is probably the best thing to happen to any department...when you actually have police officers that care to be involved with their communities, that is when you realize that the "US vs. THEM" mentality should be put on the back burner. Personally, as a future police officer (As of Monday I will be a graduate of the Police Academy), I would love to get to know the people in the city, town, or municipality I'm working for. The more they know who you are and what you're about, the more they will trust you and be more willing to help keep the crime down and out...unless of course it's for their own personal gain. I'm in this career because I want to help people, not to be a complete jerk and try to look like a bad a**! (although, I like the tough chick look.  )


But police officers are always wary and should be. 2011 has been the worst year for police officers killed in the line of duty since 2001. I'm going to go down kicking and screaming if I have to! I hope and pray that I will NEVER get caught in a situation where I could die. Vigilance is key. Stay safe all brothers (and sisters...if there are any on here besides me. lol  )


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

The_Blob said:


> a couple winters ago I stopped to help a local municipality LEO because he had *buried* his car in the highway divide almost up to the windows, there was an easy access hardpoint on the vehicle to put my chain on and pull him out but he said that I "wasn't allowed to help"  his reasoning wasn't 'liability' like I thought, but 'public perception' :dunno:
> 
> 2 hours later on the way back I saw he was still there, cruiser not running, windows fogged over... he was a little more receptive to getting the heck out


I think I would have told him that I'm the citizen... I'm the boss. I paid for that dang cruiser and I want to see it on the road, and him, too, performing the duties I paid him for, not in some ditch!  Besides, the public perception as long as he was stuck there was that he didn't know how to properly drive! 
I bet he would have taken the help.


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## OldTXCop (Oct 9, 2008)

Jezcruzen said:


> I think I would have told him that I'm the citizen... I'm the boss. I paid for that dang cruiser and I want to see it on the road, and him, too, performing the duties I paid him for, not in some ditch!  Besides, the public perception as long as he was stuck there was that he didn't know how to properly drive!
> I bet he would have taken the help.


I doubt it. The worst attitude you can show any officer is "I'm the boss, I'm the taxpayer". Talk about arrogance, that's it right there. Remember, he lives in the community he's a taxpayer too.


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## Salekdarling (Aug 15, 2010)

OldTXCop said:


> I doubt it. The worst attitude you can show any officer is "I'm the boss, I'm the taxpayer". Talk about arrogance, that's it right there. Remember, he lives in the community he's a taxpayer too.


A good one to spit back at the "the boss":

"I pay taxes too. Does this mean I'm my own boss? I pay my own salary after all."


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## Immolatus (Feb 20, 2011)

Congrats Salek!
You are now officially 'The man', so to speak.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

OldTXCop said:


> I doubt it. The worst attitude you can show any officer is "I'm the boss, I'm the taxpayer". Talk about arrogance, that's it right there. Remember, he lives in the community he's a taxpayer too.


Sorry. I wrote it "tongue in cheek".


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

Salekdarling said:


> Community oriented policing is probably the best thing to happen to any department...when you actually have police officers that care to be involved with their communities, that is when you realize that the "US vs. THEM" mentality should be put on the back burner. Personally, as a future police officer (As of Monday I will be a graduate of the Police Academy), I would love to get to know the people in the city, town, or municipality I'm working for. The more they know who you are and what you're about, the more they will trust you and be more willing to help keep the crime down and out...unless of course it's for their own personal gain. I'm in this career because I want to help people, not to be a complete jerk and try to look like a bad a**! (although, I like the tough chick look.  )
> 
> But police officers are always wary and should be. 2011 has been the worst year for police officers killed in the line of duty since 2001. I'm going to go down kicking and screaming if I have to! I hope and pray that I will NEVER get caught in a situation where I could die. Vigilance is key. Stay safe all brothers (and sisters...if there are any on here besides me. lol  )


The best advice (unsolicited) that I could give you is to find yourself an older, experienced mentor with integrity, which means they know right from wrong, latch onto them and pick their brains for everything they know.

Good luck in your new career.


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