# basic survival



## Series80 (Nov 19, 2012)

Water

Food

Air to breathe

Not just this order, the main thing I always see is people talking about the food supplies they can get and the water supplies they can get (buy) , air well we breathe it , but not always!

What Im talking about is basic , in a hurrricane like Sandy or a tornado like in Joplin , when your supplies that you've saving for months disappeared along with everything else in your house , then what do you do ?

Can you now find food and water (air to breathe ,uncontaminated?)

city dwellers might actually have it easier to find food and water , but the breathing the clean uncontaminated air will be difficult (the air is already polluted ) but you also have broken gas lines, uncontrolled fires burning all sorts of chemicals ,this is a major and life threatening problem.

Rural folks food and water might be difficult to find , although if you hunt at all it may be ok for food , can you hunt without a gun? water supplies , you better have a way to filter and have fire available !


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## Claymore5150 (Nov 17, 2011)

Lack of oxygen kills the brain in 6 mins.
Lack of shelter during inclement weather - mere hours
Lack of water, 2-3 days
Lack of food, 6-8 days.

Scary thoughts, huh?
Too bad they all can't be resolved with an SCBA, Tent, Katadyn filter, and garden. LOL.

Fun stuff!


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## hilljen (Nov 28, 2012)

I keep several N95 masks and several of the old school red bandanas in my BOBs. If I don't have those, then I can use the clothing I am wearing to make a makeshift filter to make breathing better. I also have a cool shemagh a friend stationed in Afghanistan sent me that the desert dwellers use to filter dirt and dust there.

I don't understand the part of the op about it being easier for city dwellers to find food and harder for rural residents. During the Great Depression, it was the city dwellers who starved. Country folks had plenty of food, just no money. During the derecho storms this past summer, the city dwellers I know were freaking out about not being able to get to the stores while my rural neighbors kept having community bbq's as they decomissioned various freezers as the outage continued. Last winter, during the big ice storm we had, my family was warm and cozy - eating lovely soups and breads that I cooked on top of our woodstove. My city relatives had to flock to a shelter to stay warm and were unable to cook at all in their all-electric home. Am I missing something?

The only way I could imagine city dwellers having an easier time getting food is if the op is talking about relief handouts or shelter food. I'd rather not, thanks just the same. 

Regarding hunting without guns, I'd suggest the op take a look at the primitive weapons thread currently running. Quite a few rural residents know how to hunt with bows and a wide variety of other primitive weapons.


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## GrinnanBarrett (Aug 31, 2012)

The real test of any Survivalist/Prepper is going to be in that very scenario. Remember your greatest tool is your mind. build yourself a library of really good survival books (not fiction but how to books). A real survivalist can improvise when they have to. simple dust masks can take you a long way. A piece of a tee shirt cut and fitted on your face can work a miracle when you need it. 

For water a series of Mr Coffee Filters in a funnel to take out most of the sediment followed by fire to boil the water in any sort of metal pot or containers that have not been used for chemical storage. If you don't have coffee filters use a shirt as a filter. Improvise. If you don't have something to carry water in use a condom or zip lock bag. GB


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## Series80 (Nov 19, 2012)

the reason for the comment on city dwellers is the shear numbers of people means there are more stores , more homes , not all homes will have living occupents ,same with stores (initially speaking anyway) , there are also major distribution centers in the city , got keys to one of these and you could survive for months maybe years! 


+ on the coffee filters!


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## kejmack (May 17, 2011)

Series80, if you are correct then why were people looking for food in dumpsters after Hurricane Sandy?! Your reasoning is foolish.


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## sdstrick (Nov 28, 2012)

*Don't Agree*

I think the people in the country will have an advantage especially if they know what they are doing. The cities are where the fighting and killing are going to happen. That is why tactical survival is so important if SHTF.


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## musketjim (Dec 7, 2011)

Skills are at least as important as gear. Build both and have some gear cached somewhere you can get it. Good thoughtful post.


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## hilljen (Nov 28, 2012)

Series80 said:


> the reason for the comment on city dwellers is the shear numbers of people means there are more stores , more homes , not all homes will have living occupents ,same with stores (initially speaking anyway) , there are also major distribution centers in the city , got keys to one of these and you could survive for months maybe years!


You're joking, right?'

Sheer numbers of people means a whole lot more survivors to feed, not just more infrastructure. And that means a whole lot more competition for the limited food and water resources. I'm not sure if I understand you, but more homes without living occupants may mean more shelter available, but it will not translate to more food and water for very long. Most people anymore don't even keep enough food in their houses to be able to cook dinner without stopping by the grocery on the way home. Yes, there would be little bits here and there that could be used, but how many people are going to be foraging for those limited resources?

Once the city water system shuts down, either due to damage to equipment or lack of adequate numbers of employees to run the place, where do you plan to find all this good water? The warehouse full that Bubba and the Scorpions motorcycle gang control? I'm sure they would love to share some with you.

Are you not familiar with the JIT (or just in time) system of inventory that is so prevalent in the foodstuffs industry these days? If there is any advance warning of pending SHTF, the store shelves will be picked clean well before the disaster ever happens. If it comes on as a surprise, the greedy and the strong will wipe out the stores in a few short hours. The JIT thing means that the stores no longer carry more than 3 days worth of inventory. So no, there is no big inventory of food waiting in the back room.

According to a grocery report I read a few years ago, fresh and frozen foods have become much more popular these days. That's fine for us, but means that once the power goes out, those foods will have basically no shelf life and will be inedible within hours or days.

Regarding major distrubution centers, do you not think that a whole lot of bad guys will figure out that point? Warehouses or other food distribution centers will become a bloodbath site very quickly after a disaster. People who are scared and hungry will not move on just because you might happen to have the key to the warehouse.

In all honesty, I think your predictions are very naive. If this is your plan for post SHTF preparedness, then I fear you will be one hungry camper, until someone more savvy shoots you dead as you try to help yourself to their food supply. Your best bet would be to take the time and money now to gather up enough nonperishable food to give you the luxury of some time post SHTF to learn how to hunt, grow your own, and preserve it after things settle down a bit. It would be ideal for you if you could practice those things now.

I believe preps should serve to transition us over into a fully sustainable lifestyle. Because you will eventually come to that last can of green beans, square of toilet paper, bottle of medicine, bottle of water. In order to survive long term, you must get to the point of producing new supplies.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

hilljen said:


> You're joking, right?'
> 
> Sheer numbers of people means a whole lot more survivors to feed, not just more infrastructure. And that means a whole lot more competition for the limited food and water resources. I'm not sure if I understand you, but more homes without living occupants may mean more shelter available, but it will not translate to more food and water for very long. Most people anymore don't even keep enough food in their houses to be able to cook dinner without stopping by the grocery on the way home. Yes, there would be little bits here and there that could be used, but how many people are going to be foraging for those limited resources?
> 
> ...


Excellent points. Especially the last one.

It's always wise to have preps cached in various locations just in case you have to bug out. Always have a _workable, valid,_plan for bugging out long before you need to. Know the location and what to expect when you get there. If it's public land assume that others know of it and plan to be there just like you. Use the forum to work on getting to know other member personally (meet-n-greet) and begin forming some mutual aid groups.

Get some skills for wilderness living/survival, etc. and try them out.


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## Series80 (Nov 19, 2012)

well the people of the sandy tragedy are mostly law abiding citizens ,and because of that , they didnt go into peoples homes ,or businesses , they would feel they were stealing, I wouldnt have that fright , not in the least , they starved out of fear because of there morals , Im sorry but morals have nothing to do with survival , if you believe that way , you might as well quit prepping because when they come to your house they wont be knocking on the door they will take from you!

As far as the citizens are concerned yes , I agree the thugs , motorcycle gangs , and the cops will probably control the streets , the distribution centers are already controlled by criminal elements , teamsters unions have been controlled by the italian mafia for a century , yes I think it will be a blood bath at these centers , all one has to do is look at wal-mart from Katrina , people just ook what they wanted , and I dont have a problem with that to survive , if your just there to steal for later ,well I dont agree !

thats correct for long term survival your point , however , please elaborate on HOW? Obviously at some point there WILL BE NO MORE CANS OF GREEN BEANS ,so just what will these people do?


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## hilljen (Nov 28, 2012)

Series80 said:


> well the people of the sandy tragedy are mostly law abiding citizens ,and because of that , they didnt go into peoples homes ,or businesses , they would feel they were stealing, I wouldnt have that fright , not in the least , they starved out of fear because of there morals , Im sorry but morals have nothing to do with survival , if you believe that way , you might as well quit prepping because when they come to your house they wont be knocking on the door they will take from you!
> 
> As far as the citizens are concerned yes , I agree the thugs , motorcycle gangs , and the cops will probably control the streets , the distribution centers are already controlled by criminal elements , teamsters unions have been controlled by the italian mafia for a century , yes I think it will be a blood bath at these centers , all one has to do is look at wal-mart from Katrina , people just ook what they wanted , and I dont have a problem with that to survive , if your just there to steal for later ,well I dont agree !
> 
> thats correct for long term survival your point , however , please elaborate on HOW? Obviously at some point there WILL BE NO MORE CANS OF GREEN BEANS ,so just what will these people do?


I'm getting lost here. Are we talking about foraging and salvaging in a long term disruption situation or about things to do to tide one's self over until the handouts start coming in after a few days?

You mention Hurricane Sandy, so let me make one thing very clear. Anyone who enters a home or business in that situation with the intention of taking items that do not belong to them or that they have not paid for is a LOOTER. And in my opinion, should be shot dead on sight.

Besides, if there isn't much food in one house, what makes you think there would be in the neighbor's? People tend to live similar lifestyles to those near them. If your house and food got destroyed, what makes you think the corner grocery food fared any better? You may be planning to steal stuff that isn't worth taking.

It is not the business owner's or home owner's fault that some person did not evacuate to safety or prepare adequately beforehand. Why should they allow some creep to come and take from them that which the storm didn't get? Why should you have the right to steal it just because you failed to prepare, when the store owner could sell it to the guy in line behind you who at least had the sense to keep some cash on hand for emergencies? Does your failure to prep make stealing okay?

I'm glad that you are not concerned about morals, that makes it easier for someone to shoot you. If you don't feel bound by any sense of right and wrong, why should they let it restrict them in how they treat you?

In a long term situation, when many people have died or fled, then after a reasonable amount of time (I'm thinking weeks or months), then I could see foraging for various goods if you need them. But even in those circumstances, I believe you should be willing to restore those items or pay for them if the owners or their heirs come back to reclaim their property.

I think you would do much better to work to secure your survival now, through lawful means such as prepping and training, than to think that you will be able to loot and pillage as it suits you later. Because based on what I am hearing and seeing, looters are not well received by anyone, anywhere. I fear that your planned activities for survival will actually hasten your demise.

Regarding your question about what will these people do, I'm not sure I understand what people you are asking about. The unprepared who are unwilling to loot? The unprepared who plan to loot and steal to survive? Or those who want to be prepared but don't know how?

The unprepared who are unwilling to loot will just suffer the consequences of their unpreparedness. Sadly, so will their children and those dependent upon them. The unprepared who loot and steal might get away with it for a while but there is a good chance that they will be killed for their troubles. No tears shed here about that.

For those who are unprepared but want to do better, who want to be able to deal with disaster in a much safer and more comfortable fashion, they need to go check out the preparedness forum here and on other sites. There are plenty of how-to lists and it is possible to do a good job of getting prepared for a small amount of money.

Series80, you have the choice -right now, today. You can either begin to take actions that will enhance your future safety and security or you can cling to a faulty plan that will eventually lead you to the business end of a loaded shotgun (or a jail cell, if you are lucky enough to not get shot). That choice seems like a no-brainer to me.


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## Series80 (Nov 19, 2012)

we'renot talking about todays society , w'ere talking about tomorrows , there wont be any jails , if you want to stick god as your savior good luck , Ive noticed hundreds and thousands of people dying since biblical days and he hasnt done a god damn thing to stop it , but you believe what you want , I wont be the living off leftover canned goods !


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## hilljen (Nov 28, 2012)

Series80 said:


> we'renot talking about todays society , w'ere talking about tomorrows , there wont be any jails , if you want to stick god as your savior good luck , Ive noticed hundreds and thousands of people dying since biblical days and he hasnt done a god damn thing to stop it , but you believe what you want , *I wont be the living off leftover canned goods *!


What else are you planning on eating? Tree bark? What noncanned kinds of food do you think will be waiting in all these abandoned homes and warehouses you plan to raid? Yum! Yum! All that rotted T-bone steak! All those decaying fruits and vegetables! Enjoy your feast.:scratch


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

Series80 said:


> well the people of the sandy tragedy are mostly law abiding citizens ,and because of that , they didnt go into peoples homes ,or businesses , they would feel they were stealing, I wouldnt have that fright , not in the least , they starved out of fear because of there morals , Im sorry but morals have nothing to do with survival , if you believe that way , you might as well quit prepping because when they come to your house they wont be knocking on the door they will take from you! ...


Try those tactics around this end of the country and you'll be swinging by your neck from a tree as a warnng to others of the same mind.

We prep so that we don't become looters. We prep so that we are not victims of those who loot. We prep in order to keep our families safe, shelterd, and fed when others are grovelling, scraping, and scrounging for their existence.

What we don't do is plan to loot and pillage because we know that sooner or later those people are going to meet people like us.

Regarding morality ... just remember that what goes around comes around.

If you're interested in preparing keep looking over the site. There's tons of information available. There are some good books on the subject too. YOu just need to decide what aspect you're interested in (wilderness survival, preparedness, etc.).


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Just like MMM says people will not take kindly to those who think they can just take. 
Skills will keep you alive. if you can't make fire to boil water or build a shelter if you are seperated from your supplies you will have a very rough time. Even considering looting is a good way to get dead. Bussiness owners are not going to tolerate people just taking their stuff, running a business is not easy and these people are going to be harder than the common looter might think.


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

Reminds me I do need some more inexpensive rope in my stores. para cord would work but the reminders won't stay up long that way. to thin and cutty. Wonder where I can get some inexpensive hemp rope half or 3/4 inch in bulk for cheap.

found some manilla does't look like a bad price. http://www.knotandrope.com/store/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=3


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## FromTheFuture (Dec 9, 2012)

Para cord is my best friend. Lightweight and versatile. I always keep water purification tablets around as well. If you know some basics traps, those two items can go a long way. 

I have a few books on wild edibles as well. Important to study them before a disaster hits. 

I don't keep oxygen tanks around. If the good stuff isn't in the air then it's been a good run!


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## pawpaw (Dec 21, 2011)

sdstrick said:


> I think the people in the country will have an advantage especially if they know what they are doing. The cities are where the fighting and killing are going to happen. That is why tactical survival is so important if SHTF.


Quite the first post here, eh? Me thinks our new member might be one of those evil profit-chasing capitalists. Have all of my OCCUPY efforts been for naught?
Reminds me of that classic we all used to watch: Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom!
Marlin Perkins narrates: "Stan's got to climb into the tree before the rhino can gore him! YOU can protect YOUR ass like Stan with Mutual of Omaha's....."
Welcome new member, and Kudos for your testicular fortitude! :rofl:


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## headhunter (Nov 21, 2008)

The "rule of three"s is nice and no one will dispute air, water , and food.
This time of year moves shelter into the #2 position. For a while, long handles, Levi's, learher boots with lt. wool socks. t-shirt, fleece shirt. canvas jacket, and a wool tossel hat with gloves were good to go.
Yesterday, it was 6 degrees in the A.M. and I was outside all day. Needless to say, some substitutions were necessary. Even so by nightfall, I was ready to head indoors. Yes we have a couple of alternative ways of heating the house should the need arise. 
Getting out of wind, cold temps, and precipitation are also some"prep" concerns. I'm sure temperature control; when it is at the opposite end of the spectrum is also a concern.


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