# Alternative self defence



## liamsdeely (Apr 16, 2012)

In the UK in terms of survival firearms are pretty much out of the picture I don't know how many folk here are british but if your Canadian please don't complain about your gun laws we are allowed bolt action rifles and shotguns and they are very hard to get. What could I use to remove an assailant armed with a firearm. WTSHTF I am too close to the Murder Capitol of Europe for my liking and there are far too many armed folk there who would shoot you at the best of times so what would I use to defend against someone who had a firearm. (NOT A GUN. GUNS ARE BIG AND FIRE SHELLS. SHELLS ARE NOT SHOTGUN CARTRIDGES A SHELL IS A LARGE PROJECTILE THAT EXPLODES. AN EXAMPLE OF A GUN WOULD BE AN AS-90 SPG OR IF YOU ARE AMERICAN AN XM-1203. YOUR 1911 IS A PISTOL NOT A GUN.) Also I want alternative methods not build a bow and arrow from a stick or a slingshot, effective weapons that actually work, preferably ranged, I don't intend to get close to anyone with a firearm of any kind.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

I think your last sentence is the best advice. Avoidance would be critical when faced with being unarmed vs a gun. 

Having said that, a trained person with a knife can be pretty dangerous. And don't discount other throwing weapons, such as hatchets.

Are tools such as crossbows and compound bows also hard to get across the pond? Those and recurve bows and even long bows are very effective weapons used properly.


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## liamsdeely (Apr 16, 2012)

FatTire said:


> I think your last sentence is the best advice. Avoidance would be critical when faced with being unarmed vs a gun.
> 
> Having said that, a trained person with a knife can be pretty dangerous. And don't discount other throwing weapons, such as hatchets.
> 
> Are tools such as crossbows and compound bows also hard to get across the pond? Those and recurve bows and even long bows are very effective weapons used properly.


Good crossbows are a bit on the illegal side of things I believe, I know people who have them but I don't know how illegal they are, I believe he has some permit or other that comes with his job but I'm not sure. I don't know where to get them and the Internet isn't available for buying anything even slightly "offensive weapony". I think you need a permit to own any kind of bow. I can't shoot anyway, I miss a six foot target at 10yards and have no possibility of training. (actually for a teenager who lives in the union of Scottish socialist republics where firearms are evil beings who shoot babies from inside cabinets and will one day take over the world and kill all minorities I'm a damn good shot with a Lee-Enfield No.8 (barrel with a trigger and a bolt glued to a bit of wood).

Throwing weapons is a good idea but they are completely illegal to buy, give, lend, carry, find, have in your possession, display, sell or do anything other than own. But I could whip up some throwing knives in a few hours if o had to. Do they have much stopping power though, I can't imagine your typical Glaswegian leaving you alone after you threw an axe or knife at him but it is better than nothing I guess.


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## labouton (Jan 24, 2011)

Hard to beat a crossbow or speargun in your situation.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

liamsdeely said:


> In the UK in terms of survival firearms are pretty much out of the picture I don't know how many folk here are british but if your Canadian please don't complain about your gun laws we are allowed bolt action rifles and shotguns and they are very hard to get. What could I use to remove an assailant armed with a firearm. WTSHTF I am too close to the Murder Capitol of Europe for my liking and there are far too many armed folk there who would shoot you at the best of times so what would I use to defend against someone who had a firearm. (NOT A GUN. GUNS ARE BIG AND FIRE SHELLS. SHELLS ARE NOT SHOTGUN CARTRIDGES A SHELL IS A LARGE PROJECTILE THAT EXPLODES. AN EXAMPLE OF A GUN WOULD BE AN AS-90 SPG OR IF YOU ARE AMERICAN AN XM-1203. YOUR 1911 IS A PISTOL NOT A GUN.) Also I want alternative methods not build a bow and arrow from a stick or a slingshot, effective weapons that actually work, preferably ranged, I don't intend to get close to anyone with a firearm of any kind.


There are some old island martial arts that you might want to consider learning. The Irish had something nick-named "Whiskey Stick Dancing" where you fight with a walking stick or a "loaded" walking stick. It is an "invisible" weapon that could help you protect yourself. The next is a "visible" weapon, think of an oriental nunchuck without the chain in the middle - it is known as "twin-sticks". Fighting with twin-sticks you hold onto either end of the stick to drive-off someone else - normally the stick is 1/3 longer than your forearm. Next would be a basic staff / spear. I have a hiking-staff that I can place a spear-point onto (ColdSteel Bushman knife) and use it that way.

There are lots of options for self protection that does not need a gun or other projectile-based-tools.


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## Ration-AL (Apr 18, 2012)

hello op! i'm English as well,dual national actually, basically your chances of coming across an armed assailant is quite small for the very same reason you have a hard time acquiring one, basically you only got to worry about farmers, yardies and chavs and most of the latter are not going to have guns either, that said, in England bows and arrows are not considered offensive weapons, same with crossbows so you can purchase those which is better then trying to throw a hatchet or knife at someone without years of practice.

if i lived in the UK again i'd have lots of bladed weapons a.k.a "garden tools" and a bow and arrow at the least....you can buy them at archery shops over there, yes don't make one, but go out and buy one, either that or go and buy a farm so you can have a proper rifle, lol

i still fly to either bristol or chester a few times a year still for work and other things, so i don't think the rules have changed on most of this stuff in the last 6 months...


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

Hit em with a Crumpit !


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## liamsdeely (Apr 16, 2012)

Mr Ration-Al I don't know if you know how many illegal firearms there are in glasgow or even edinburgh for that matter, its easy to get one, just not legally.The problem I am thinking of is your first encounter with an armed assailant which is likely. I want something I can have before TSHTF that is legal but when it does I can use to defend myself until I can take a firearm from the dead body of the person who attacked me with it. Firearms are available here as much as in south London, I just don't want to break the law until all law and order is gone anyway.


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## emilnon (May 8, 2012)

What are y'all's opinions on slingshots?


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## liamsdeely (Apr 16, 2012)

Would a long braid of paracord with a light but strong shackle at each end be good. I have a 0.7kg grapple anchor that could be attached to the end or I could fashion some kind of blade and the shackles would basically be a quick release for what ever tool I wanted to put on the end of it. Imagine being hit by 0.7kg of lead with four prongs on it. It could be wielded like a rope dart or you could hold it about a meter from the anchor or hook or whatever and also at the end and then swing it to get speed and let go so you are only holding the end and it would fly forward with practice and you would have a nice ranged weapon. If anyone wants to do some math and work out how much energy could be transferred into someone by 0.7kg hitting them however fast you could get it. I heard you can make a sling (David and Goliath) have the energy equivalent to a 0.45 inch Automatic Colt Pistol probably a standard 1911 barrel length, but would it be effective?


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

liamsdeely said:


> Mr Ration-Al I don't know if you know how many illegal firearms there are in glasgow or even edinburgh for that matter, its easy to get one, just not legally.The problem I am thinking of is your first encounter with an armed assailant which is likely. I want something I can have before TSHTF that is legal but when it does I can use to defend myself until I can take a firearm from the dead body of the person who attacked me with it. Firearms are available here as much as in south London, I just don't want to break the law until all law and order is gone anyway.


There are very few things I would break the law for. I don't even speed. But guns is one thing I would break the law for if I had to. Not saying you should, just that's what I would do.

Also I would recommend a martial art that requires full contact against a fully resisting sparring partner. Kyokushin, arnis/kali, mma, boxing for example.


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## mimsi (May 5, 2012)

On the subject of martial arts, I would highly recommend krav maga. There is heaps to learn for defense against a variety of weapons such as an assailant with a knife or gun.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

It's not the art, but the artist... Basically, it all works, and none of it does, which is why I say, find training that includes full contact against fully resisting opponents. 

If you don't train that way, you can't know it works.

One of my personal favorites is arnis, check out dog brothers for more info


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## zracer7 (Apr 17, 2012)

Maybe a blow dart gun? Easy to learn however I don't know if the laws in Europe will allow you to have one. Although they are fairly simple to make. Course like others have posted, once the SHTF it would be beneficial to have a gun. Course I don't have that problem. I live in Texas so... Well... Enough said.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

What are the laws regarding black powder weapons? In the U S A they are considered relics and are not subject to the same scrutinety as modern firearms.


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## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

Buy a good gun. Bury it in your yard. When all hell breaks loose dig it up and use it. And if the cops dig it up first?? Hey man, that mustve been here when I moved in!!


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

When I was about fourteen , I was walking down the side of a road with a buddy of about the same age. Two older boys high school seniors passed us and slammed on the breaks and stoped. One of them got out and demanded to know what we were doing on his road. We had retreated up the bank to a fence and he told my friend to come down right now. I told him not to do it but he was scared and complied. This bully slapped him and he retreated back up the hill. I picked up a rock about the size of a baseball. He slapped my friend and he came running back up the bank.
The guy from the car then turned his attention to me and started up the bank toward me. I cocked my arm to throw the rock and he stoped his advance and said you better drop that rock or use it so I hit him right in the nose with it. The fight was over.

The moral to this story is this, There are only three assets to self defence . 1. you can be ready. 2. you can be willing and last 3. you can be able. You may not possess all of these three assets but the only one you can not do without is being willing.

The very most dangerous people I ever arrested were not in good shape or experts at self defence but they were just plain willing.


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## mimsi (May 5, 2012)

I do agree with FatTire, but also disagree. It is the artist rather then that art in the are of application and knowledge of that art. I am a Filipino by bloodmand have been around eskrima/Kali/arnis and I completely agree it would be beneficial

With that being said, I only in a few aspects, when utilizing weapons, in your case of legality would be sticks. For self defense against weapons hands Down I would still recommend krav maga. the reason for this is because most of the public taugh application is for situations in where you are taken by surpize and generally out numbered or the enemy has a weapon at hand. Therefore utilizing your own two hands you can defend yourself in the situation.

Furthermore; being an individual in the military I've had a fair bit of training in self-defense. Although most of the grainy is more of an "offensive" style I stilll find myself defending myself in various scenarios utilizing krav maga. The funny part is I am a second degree black belt in tae kaon do as well but I have yet to kick one individual... 

In reality it's not just one style/ art that you will use but a mix of several. Personally if I could reinvent myself I would take out years of training in several other arts just to stick to krav maga, eskima, muai Thai, and some good ol bjj for groundwork. But once again that's just me and what I have learned fro the situations that were given to me. Each could fit an individual differently based on there peronalities and even bodyweight.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

BillM said:


> When I was about fourteen , I was walking down the side of a road with a buddy of about the same age. Two older boys high school seniors passed us and slammed on the breaks and stoped. One of them got out and demanded to know what we were doing on his road. We had retreated up the bank to a fence and he told my friend to come down right now. I told him not to do it but he was scared and complied. This bully slapped him and he retreated back up the hill. I picked up a rock about the size of a baseball. He slapped my friend and he came running back up the bank.
> The guy from the car then turned his attention to me and started up the bank toward me. I cocked my arm to throw the rock and he stoped his advance and said you better drop that rock or use it so I hit him right in the nose with it. The fight was over.
> 
> The moral to this story is this, There are only three assets to self defence . 1. you can be ready. 2. you can be willing and last 3. you can be able. You may not possess all of these three assets but the only one you can not do without is being willing.
> ...


Yup, put another way, it's not the size of of the fight in the dog...

Very well said mr bill


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## SlobberToofTigger (Dec 27, 2011)

It has been a while but I remember an article that stated there were about 10,000 gun related crimes in the UK each year. I will admit that I think they included airguns and fake guns in the list so that number is a bit misleading. In any case it is interesting that in a country of about the same landmass as the US state of Michigan, that to some extent prohibits personal gun ownership that there is that much gun related crime. On the other hand with over 60 million folks you only have a .02% chance of being involved in a gun related crime in the UK whereas it looks like your something like twice as likely to be involved in a knife related crime in the UK then you are a gun related crime in the US (you guys like your knives). In short I think your concern is a valid one and if there were a SHTF type incident having a projectile weapon is a good idea.

It looks like you can own air guns if they meet certain limits. The great thing about an air gun is they are light, cheap to practice with, and if you can use one accurately you can do a lot of damage. I think I would buy one and become proficient. I would also buy one of the air guns that can be modified to be more powerful. It sounds like you can get up to a 40% increase in power with some models so that you can have a legal gun now but if bad things happen be ready and able to up the weapons lethality.

On the other hand you could just make friends with your local black-market maker who can hook you up with the gun of your choice if bad things happen... Grin.


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## liamsdeely (Apr 16, 2012)

The reason we have so much knife crime is because firearms are so damn hard to get hold of, as for black market makers, I wouldn't want to trust a drilled out plastic blank firer with an air rifle pellet glued to the cartridge with my life.


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## Ration-AL (Apr 18, 2012)

liamsdeely said:


> The reason we have so much knife crime is because firearms are so damn hard to get hold of, as for black market makers, I wouldn't want to trust a drilled out plastic blank firer with an air rifle pellet glued to the cartridge with my life.


haha right, all of the years i've spent in the uk i have only seen real fire arms a number of times and all of those were on farms or at dove shoots out in summerset, i could see places like glasgow or london being an major issue with fire arms, but highly doubt it would be easy to come across one in other places in the country, not saying they aren't out there but the scale and volume isn't there, with that said any one coming at you with a firearm is an issue, and you should have a plan, i see the martial arts training as a good thing but only really want to use it in a fubar'd situation as at that point the guy is within 20 ft/6 m or less of you , too close for comfort imo, i'd be looking at booby traps,air rifles,sling shots, bows and arrows ...anything ranged, so you at least have a chance to end the confrontation before the other guy can retaliate, booby traps are good too, rig up your house and wait for the armed looter to enter.....

hand to hand combat should be the very very very last thing you consider when trying to deal with an armed assailant as at that point if you fail it's guaranteed death , as opposed with a failed booby trap or arrow shot you can retreat and fight from another position or just flat out run...don't get me wrong martial arts of any form is really good and essential, i just wouldn't start my whole plan out with bum rushing a guy with a gun and busting some ninja moves out on him, that's the last resort imo and should be avoided if it can be helped.


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## Icbones (Dec 24, 2009)

Did you mention slingshots? Check this guy out.

http://www.slingshotchannel.com/contact.html



liamsdeely said:


> In the UK in terms of survival firearms are pretty much out of the picture I don't know how many folk here are british but if your Canadian please don't complain about your gun laws we are allowed bolt action rifles and shotguns and they are very hard to get. What could I use to remove an assailant armed with a firearm. WTSHTF I am too close to the Murder Capitol of Europe for my liking and there are far too many armed folk there who would shoot you at the best of times so what would I use to defend against someone who had a firearm. (NOT A GUN. GUNS ARE BIG AND FIRE SHELLS. SHELLS ARE NOT SHOTGUN CARTRIDGES A SHELL IS A LARGE PROJECTILE THAT EXPLODES. AN EXAMPLE OF A GUN WOULD BE AN AS-90 SPG OR IF YOU ARE AMERICAN AN XM-1203. YOUR 1911 IS A PISTOL NOT A GUN.) Also I want alternative methods not build a bow and arrow from a stick or a slingshot, effective weapons that actually work, preferably ranged, I don't intend to get close to anyone with a firearm of any kind.


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## Icbones (Dec 24, 2009)

BTW it just became a wee bit easier to be a gun owner in Canada. We are now not required to register our bolt action, pump, lever, and some semi-auto's rifles,:2thumb:



liamsdeely said:


> In the UK in terms of survival firearms are pretty much out of the picture I don't know how many folk here are british *but if your Canadian please don't complain about your gun laws *we are allowed bolt action rifles and shotguns and they are very hard to get. What could I use to remove an assailant armed with a firearm. WTSHTF


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## liamsdeely (Apr 16, 2012)

Icbones said:


> Did you mention slingshots? Check this guy out.
> 
> http://www.slingshotchannel.com/contact.html


Frankly slingshots are not powerful enough to stop someone for all that long, I'm thinking you want painball guns for the non lethal approach.


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## sprint (May 16, 2012)

liamsdeely said:


> In the UK in terms of survival firearms are pretty much out of the picture I don't know how many folk here are british but if your Canadian please don't complain about your gun laws we are allowed bolt action rifles and shotguns and they are very hard to get. What could I use to remove an assailant armed with a firearm. WTSHTF I am too close to the Murder Capitol of Europe for my liking and there are far too many armed folk there who would shoot you at the best of times so what would I use to defend against someone who had a firearm. (NOT A GUN. GUNS ARE BIG AND FIRE SHELLS. SHELLS ARE NOT SHOTGUN CARTRIDGES A SHELL IS A LARGE PROJECTILE THAT EXPLODES. AN EXAMPLE OF A GUN WOULD BE AN AS-90 SPG OR IF YOU ARE AMERICAN AN XM-1203. YOUR 1911 IS A PISTOL NOT A GUN.) Also I want alternative methods not build a bow and arrow from a stick or a slingshot, effective weapons that actually work, preferably ranged, I don't intend to get close to anyone with a firearm of any kind.


Hey mate, I live in Australia and our gun laws are almost as stringent. I suggest you buy a crossbow, if that is not possible then get a recreational firearms permit, for hunting and such. Even a double barrel shoty or bolt action is a useful self defense item if you practice practice practice. Now I am not condoning you go out breaking laws and buying illegal weapons. Everything I do is done within the legal limits afforded to me by commonwealth law. But WTSHTF no thug will come close to you as long as you look the part of Simone who is ready for a fight, this does not mean you need an SA-80 with a 203 attachment, this means being fit, brave, learning adrenaline control techniques and remember the greatest defense against a firearm is your brain. If you do not have much conflict experience I suggest you get a security license and do some bouncing on the weekend, learn conflict resolution techniques and how to control your adrenaline in a fight.


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## liamsdeely (Apr 16, 2012)

sprint said:


> Hey mate, I live in Australia and our gun laws are almost as stringent. I suggest you buy a crossbow, if that is not possible then get a recreational firearms permit, for hunting and such. Even a double barrel shoty or bolt action is a useful self defense item if you practice practice practice. Now I am not condoning you go out breaking laws and buying illegal weapons. Everything I do is done within the legal limits afforded to me by commonwealth law. But WTSHTF no thug will come close to you as long as you look the part of Simone who is ready for a fight, this does not mean you need an SA-80 with a 203 attachment, this means being fit, brave, learning adrenaline control techniques and remember the greatest defense against a firearm is your brain. If you do not have much conflict experience I suggest you get a security license and do some bouncing on the weekend, learn conflict resolution techniques and how to control your adrenaline in a fight.


Well we have some good news, my record got wiped today so I can get a shotgun certificate, it gets wiped when I turn 16. So bouncing and such needs postponed. I would very much like to acquire an SA-80 A.2 series rifle (for the record you can't attach an M-203 to one it's an H&K L-something.) WTSHTF that is one of the first things I will look for, in the UK the polizei are bastards with firearms so recreation is hard to get a license with recreation. Also I can strip, reassemble and carry out a full functions check on an SA-80 A.2 series rifle in under a minute which I think is alright for a 16 y/o.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

Certain kinds of bug spray come with a plastic tube that allows you to shoot it about ten feet. Like the kind used to take out wasp nests.

Still, you really need a gun for when it hits the fan. Even if you refuse to use it until then.

Otherwise a more expensive sling shot that fires ball bearings really is a dangerous weapon.

Maybe something like this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Adjustable-...ultDomain_0&hash=item4d015698f6#ht_1701wt_932

These things look like taconite pellets. Taconite is a type of iron ore.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-000-ROUND...aultDomain_0&hash=item3f17abcc19#ht_500wt_949


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*See if*



sprint said:


> Hey mate, I live in Australia and our gun laws are almost as stringent. I suggest you buy a crossbow, if that is not possible then get a recreational firearms permit, for hunting and such. Even a double barrel shoty or bolt action is a useful self defense item if you practice practice practice. Now I am not condoning you go out breaking laws and buying illegal weapons. Everything I do is done within the legal limits afforded to me by commonwealth law. But WTSHTF no thug will come close to you as long as you look the part of Simone who is ready for a fight, this does not mean you need an SA-80 with a 203 attachment, this means being fit, brave, learning adrenaline control techniques and remember the greatest defense against a firearm is your brain. If you do not have much conflict experience I suggest you get a security license and do some bouncing on the weekend, learn conflict resolution techniques and how to control your adrenaline in a fight.


See if this site will help you with your limitation on your shotgun ?

http://www.mcace.com/Insertsindex.htm


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

liamsdeely said:


> In the UK in terms of survival firearms are pretty much out of the picture I don't know how many folk here are british but if your Canadian please don't complain about your gun laws we are allowed bolt action rifles and shotguns and they are very hard to get. What could I use to remove an assailant armed with a firearm. WTSHTF I am too close to the Murder Capitol of Europe for my liking and there are far too many armed folk there who would shoot you at the best of times so what would I use to defend against someone who had a firearm. (NOT A GUN. GUNS ARE BIG AND FIRE SHELLS. SHELLS ARE NOT SHOTGUN CARTRIDGES A SHELL IS A LARGE PROJECTILE THAT EXPLODES. AN EXAMPLE OF A GUN WOULD BE AN AS-90 SPG OR IF YOU ARE AMERICAN AN XM-1203. YOUR 1911 IS A PISTOL NOT A GUN.) Also I want alternative methods not build a bow and arrow from a stick or a slingshot, effective weapons that actually work, preferably ranged, I don't intend to get close to anyone with a firearm of any kind.


Captain improvised weapons here.P.M me,I'll bore you for hours arming you up.If you own a hacksaw, an electric drill and can buy generic hardware I can turn you into just short of an SAS agent.


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## prepare_survive_thrive (May 7, 2012)

Magus said:


> Captain improvised weapons here.P.M me,I'll bore you for hours arming you up.If you own a hacksaw, an electric drill and can buy generic hardware I can turn you into just short of an SAS agent.


Magus i for one would enjoy a thread on the subject.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Due to legal consequences for my buds who run the place, I can only do a lot of things in P.M or email.stuff like fire extinguisher spear launchers, poison darts and silencers be a BIG no-no, BUT I think I can get away with my bungee cord crossbow and ultimate slingshot.[still no laser.lol]give me a couple of days to create the blueprints. it in photoshop.I think I already posted the uber slingshot in here somewhere.


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## prepare_survive_thrive (May 7, 2012)

Magus said:


> Due to legal consequences for my buds who run the place, I can only do a lot of things in P.M or email.stuff like fire extinguisher spear launchers, poison darts and silencers be a BIG no-no, BUT I think I can get away with my bungee cord crossbow and ultimate slingshot.[still no laser.lol]give me a couple of days to create the blueprints. it in photoshop.I think I already posted the uber slingshot in here somewhere.


Lol fair enough


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f39/pvc-crossbow-plans-included-56-warning-11087/#post130363

better look fast in case it doesn't pass!


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## md1911 (Feb 9, 2012)

Magus. I like your disclaimer.. I made a crossbow in highschool. Built it out of a single leafspring. Off a 3/4 ton truck. The trick was the triger release for me. Your plan sounds good. We should pm about improvised weapons. I have made several.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

Distance is your best friend in armed combat. Be as far away from a from any country that does not respect your right to live and right to defend that life. I do carry a cane in all those places where firearms are not permitted. They tend to make you attacker under estimate you, are easy to use with little training, deploy instantly as they are already in your hand, and they are effective.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

md1911 said:


> Magus. I like your disclaimer.. I made a crossbow in highschool. Built it out of a single leafspring. Off a 3/4 ton truck. The trick was the triger release for me. Your plan sounds good. We should pm about improvised weapons. I have made several.


My leaf spring crossbow did not end well.I think my spring was too thick or wide.



> Distance is your best friend in armed combat. Be as far away from a from any country that does not respect your right to live and right to defend that life. I do carry a cane in all those places where firearms are not permitted. They tend to make you attacker under estimate you, are easy to use with little training, deploy instantly as they are already in your hand, and they are effective.


You'd love the canes I make.1" pressure treated ash [post hole digger handles!] and around a 1LB.stainless steel ball grip screwed on, glued and bolted in.I put the neighbor's pit back up the road with one "love tap" when him and his buddies charged me a few months back. I could have crushed his skull if I chose to.

Aw who am I kidding?they're 4' long war clubs! LOL


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## md1911 (Feb 9, 2012)

Magus. It was my senior project in metal shop. I used the shortest spring on a 1 ton pickup. I milled the steel down to weaken the spring. When we test fired it shot my bolt made of 3/8 dia round rod. I used aluminum fletching. Painted it dayglow orange and fired it. We looked with metal detectors and never found the bolt. At 100 yds my target was the side of a old pickup. The bolt went thru both doors.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Ah.I just had a home made grinder with a washing machine motor.you must have graduated metal shop long before me, they wouldn't allow anything that even resembled a weapon, even though the teacher used to brag about the .410 pistols they used to make....lucky suckers!


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## md1911 (Feb 9, 2012)

Magus said:


> Ah.I just had a home made grinder with a washing machine motor.you must have graduated metal shop long before me, they wouldn't allow anything that even resembled a weapon, even though the teacher used to brag about the .410 pistols they used to make....lucky suckers!


I graduated in 93 but I was quite abit ahead of the rest of my class. It was a small school. I'm on a phone so I don't have any way to draw a pic. But at the center I notched out a place for the bolt to rest. Then I left the spring full with for 1 inch on each side of the bolt rest. I tapered the spring down to 1 inch wide at the ends. Leaving the spring full length and thickness. I used steel cable for string and a 3 inch wide I-beam for a stock. Built a stand out of round tubing. The teacher did make me put a pull string release on it.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Hmm.I graduated in 85'. But Tn. was just starting to turn pink at that time too.they tested outcome based education on us!

I still have the Mechanic's illustrated I got my prints from in my files somewhere.now that I actually own good tools I might just hunt it up some dark night.


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## md1911 (Feb 9, 2012)

It was a lot of fun to play with. But it was kinda heavy for what I had in mind at the time. The triger is the tricky part. Never saw any prints for one. I had never seen a real crosbow when I made it. I looked in the library and found stuff on dark age seige weapons and things leanardo divinci made. I have also built catupult and tribushe.


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## md1911 (Feb 9, 2012)

md1911 said:


> It was a lot of fun to play with. But it was kinda heavy for what I had in mind at the time. The triger is the tricky part. Never saw any prints for one. I had never seen a real crosbow when I made it. I looked in the library and found stuff on dark age seige weapons and things leanardo divinci made. I have also built catupult and tribushe.


I guess seige weapons don't exactly count as self deffence though


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## liamsdeely (Apr 16, 2012)

LongRider said:


> Distance is your best friend in armed combat. Be as far away from a from any country that does not respect your right to live and right to defend that life. I do carry a cane in all those places where firearms are not permitted. They tend to make you attacker under estimate you, are easy to use with little training, deploy instantly as they are already in your hand, and they are effective.


It is illegal to carry a cane in the UK unless you are disabled.


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## liamsdeely (Apr 16, 2012)

Actually when I think about it it's illegal to defend yourself here.


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## Ration-AL (Apr 18, 2012)

liamsdeely said:


> Actually when I think about it it's illegal to defend yourself here.


well quit whinging and do what you can, you seem to want us to change the laws of the land or tell you to break the law, we really can't do either, like was suggested, you can buy a bow and arrow, you can buy big sharp gardening tools, you can learn a martial art, you can make some improvised stuff as magnus shows you on various other parts of this forum, and i know you can buy knives and hatchets as well, there's alot you can do, so get on it , anything is better than nothing , so instead of sitting on the internet whinging about how "weak" the uk is , do what you can with what you got, after all that is the mantra of all survivalist "do what you can with what you got" survival isn't about guns,weapons and toys, it's about adapting and overcoming, when you walk into a B&Q you should be looking at things as survival tools not summer garden party furnishings or lawn care items....bottom line is all i'm hearing is what your not going to do, my question to you is what ARE you going to do to help protect yourself?

personally if i was you and you really think it's so easy to get a shooter then go get one....i think that's bit of a stretch though as apart from a fox hunt or two i have never even seen a gun from my 12 years in the UK , and i hung out with a dodgy crowd for a number of years as a kid.....


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## Jack Aubrey (May 24, 2009)

With a stick you can get a knife. With a knife, you can get a pistol. With a pistol,you can get a rifle. By then the government will be back on top, disarming everyone...for their own protection. JA


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

LOL true!but with a well placed pipe b0mb you can go right to the top of the chain!


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## truecarnage (Apr 25, 2010)

What about a nice hunting compound bow, very accurate and very deadly at a good distance.
at close range I think a good club, for point blank I would go with a knife. I also have some nice swords that I practice with, but I don't know if they would be legal where you are.


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

A good paintball gun with some solid resin reballs and pepperballs might be good for distance as well.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sample-Pack...099?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cc331af9b


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

Don't worry about where you will get a gun in the UK.

If the SHTF there will be plenty of them laying around . Just pick one up !


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## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

Being old, I would have to walk with a cane, preferrably one with a sword inside it. Even without the sword, a cane can be a formidable weapon. Make sure it is stout stuff, too. 

Having done some carpentry on the farm, I once encountered an enraged 400 pound sow (she had baby pigs and was nuts to boot) with only a claw hammer to defend myself. I won, hands down. I had spent a lot of time with that hammer and knew exactly how it worked.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

liamsdeely said:


> It is illegal to carry a cane in the UK unless you are disabled.


I can teach you how to beat the living hell out of someone with a rolled up news paper.


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## ContinualHarvest (Feb 19, 2012)

liamsdeely said:


> Frankly slingshots are not powerful enough to stop someone for all that long, I'm thinking you want painball guns for the non lethal approach.


Frozen paintballs HURT upon impact.


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

And reballs are hard resin paintballs  pretty much the same thing as frozen without needing a freezer!


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

BillM said:


> Don't worry about where you will get a gun in the UK.
> 
> If the SHTF there will be plenty of them laying around . Just pick one up !


So why do you think that? I don't think there will be plenty of them lying around in the US where we have a lot more guns.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

I don't think there's a good substitute for a gun. With a gun you can force a group of people to leave you alone. Or force a perp to leave your house.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*I think*



BillS said:


> So why do you think that? I don't think there will be plenty of them lying around in the US where we have a lot more guns.


I think that sociaty is going to collapse compleatly when the dollar becomes worthless. I know you believe this also from your postings. The trick will be to survive the first three months without getting into an altercation. The people who are able to do this will be able to relieve dead people of their weapons. They will have died from dehidration, hunger , cold, sickness or at the hand of another. Every one who has a gun will have it with them. There will be a lot of things lieing around !


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Bingo, let all the "Bad asses" fight it out and go salvage their stuff.


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## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

Just don't take my shoes man!! That's just wrong. And if you do....I place a curse of itchy toes on you. May this curse follow you for 1000 years!!


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