# Trauma Care for the Worst Case Scenario



## Tradecraft (Mar 3, 2014)

I recently found a great book on Amazon.com called *Trauma Care for the Worst Case *Scenario by Gunner Morgan. If you are a survivalist, prepper, or shooter this is a good book to have in your collection. You can get it at: http://www.amazon.com/Trauma-Care-Wo...+case+scenario
 
Well worth the $3.00 that Amazon charges. 
​


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

Tradecraft said:


> I recently found a great book on Amazon.com called *Trauma Care for the Worst Case *Scenario by Gunner Morgan. If you are a survivalist, prepper, or shooter this is a good book to have in your collection. You can get it at: http://www.amazon.com/Trauma-Care-Wo...+case+scenario
> 
> Well worth the $3.00 that Amazon charges.
> ​


Would you happen to be the author?


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

I bet you called it there Davarm. The reviews also look pretty strange in their glowing sense about them. When I get to my kindle later I will use my Prime membership to borrow it and give it a glance.

But right off the bat looking at the description by amazon, I think this is probably a modern day medicine explained book. It talks about chest seals and such. Seems to even recommend brands and where to purchase. Heck I can throw something together in a few days time. And I can throw a bunch of initials after my name albeit, none current (NREMT-P, AHA CPR-I, PHTLS-I, PALS, ACLS and a few more that I can't think of right now. Although PITA comes to mind) This guy, near as I can tell was an EMT. Not sure if it was paid or volunteer (bet ya don't know which one I give more trauma credit to!) Although there is nothing wrong with being an EMT, I will have to see what this guy actually talks about cause I think he may be in over his head. Nothing on the amazon page says who this author is. The EMT part was in the books forward.

I shall report back! And heck, maybe I will pop out a book or two!


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

Yeah not much to the book. Something around 60 pages that talked a lot of common sense stuff and focused on nasal airways, chest seals and tourniquets. At least the author was real big on getting training to use these things. I would have preferred seeing a lead up to what this devices would be used for. Something like direct pressure, elevate, pressure point and then tourniquet. 
Not worth the read in my opinion.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

Well, since he hasn't made another post and explained/defended himself, guess we can call it "Case Closed"!

If he does come back and offer an explanation and/or defense that proves me wrong I'll give him an apology and welcome him in but until then I'm sure you can guess how I'll rate the thread.


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## Tradecraft (Mar 3, 2014)

Well you guys are a suspicious group. NO, I am not the author which is good based on my writing skills. I am not as critical as some of you though. As a former law enforcement officer I felt the book did a great job on a very relevant topic. The Tucson shooting of Giffords is a great example of such information being used because officers had kits and were trained in their use. The book is new so there are not even a lot of reviews written on the book. I am going only on what I read IN THE BOOK. 

Take the book or leave it as it does not matter to me. I thought the information was good. And, if anyone hear can throw a better book together please let me know because I will read it.


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

Tradecraft said:


> Well you guys are a suspicious group. NO, I am not the author which is good based on my writing skills. I am not as critical as some of you though. As a former law enforcement officer I felt the book did a great job on a very relevant topic. The Tucson shooting of Giffords is a great example of such information being used because officers had kits and were trained in their use. The book is new so there are not even a lot of reviews written on the book. I am going only on what I read IN THE BOOK.
> 
> Take the book or leave it as it does not matter to me. I thought the information was good. And, if anyone hear can throw a better book together please let me know because I will read it.


Hearsay at best, but here's what I've what I've heard...

Tucson went so well for the victims because the TPD were carrying B.O.M.B.'s or Blow Out Medical Bags, which is a condensed no frills instant trauma kit. Some quick clot packs, probably some CAT TQ's and if lucky maybe even a couple chest seals, the kind that have the one way valves that allow venting and can help prevent tension pneumothorax.

Also, from what I read, Boston Marathon bombing, the reason 3 people died instead of... ??? 103, 203??? is because we've learned from 12 years of war in Afghanistan and Iraq that TQ's... RTFN save lives. People die because they bleed out, but TQ's were not in protocol for a lot of agencies, that has changed, war changes and adapts and improves medical care. A "good" thing, from a gruesome source. 

Further hearsay... I've been told that in active shooter scenarios, while SWAT is creeping the building they may be equipped to throw small B.O.M.B.'s to victims. Remember there's no real force of EMT's and Medics coming into that place, AT ALL!!! until LE says it's clear.

I'd have to hear from an active duty SWAT member to confirm it, but it seems plausible, and I know personally one of the medics who was a trainer in my EMT school that is trained to ride with SWAT, so he'd likely be one of the guys throwing those around. If I get a chance to talk to him again I'm going to ask him about that.


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## Tradecraft (Mar 3, 2014)

Dakine said:


> Further hearsay... I've been told that in active shooter scenarios, while SWAT is creeping the building they may be equipped to throw small B.O.M.B.'s to victims. Remember there's no real force of EMT's and Medics coming into that place, AT ALL!!! until LE says it's clear.


Many law enforcement agencies are WAY behind the times in dealing with active shooter incidents. Many are still using outdated diamond and T formations which is ridiculous. There TTP's are not up to date. There are some discussion about radical changes to responding to active shooter incidents that will involve ems and fire to assist. It will probably take a long time before these potential changes are implemented.

Also, SWAT is irrelevant when it comes to active shooters as the incident will be over way before SWAT arrives. Columbine taught us this lesson. SWAT obviously has its place but it is no longer with active shooters.


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

Tradecraft said:


> Many law enforcement agencies are WAY behind the times in dealing with active shooter incidents. Many are still using outdated diamond and T formations which is ridiculous. There TTP's are not up to date. There are some discussion about radical changes to responding to active shooter incidents that will involve ems and fire to assist. It will probably take a long time before these potential changes are implemented.
> 
> Also, SWAT is irrelevant when it comes to active shooters as the incident will be over way before SWAT arrives. Columbine taught us this lesson. SWAT obviously has its place but it is no longer with active shooters.


Yep, I agree, and if people haven't been paying attention lately, just take a look at police MOTORCYCLES. At least here in CA, a LOT of them are carrying M-16's, because those guys may be first on scene and they are changing the scope of their response from code enforcement and backup officers to first responder taking down bad guys reacting to SHTF scenarios on the fly.

Sandy Hook taught us this. Like many (there are stats but I'm not going to dig them up now) many active shooters do themselves in before being captured after they first encounter ANY armed resistance. They dont want to pay the mortal cost for their crimes, so once they are resisted, they eat a bullet. I only wish they'd do that before moving onto execution of their evil plans. 

My personal opinion is that police officers are too heavy and wear too much gear for me to comfortably carry one in my pocket, so I make no attempts to hide that I think law abiding citizens have the right to open or CCW, but in these cases of active shooters, the shoe fits.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

OK Tradecraft, as I said I will offer an apology.

Yes we tend to be a suspicious bunch, many times we have seen peeps join the forum, plug a site, book or other resources that they are associated with or have an interest in then disappear into nowhere after the first post, all in an effort to boost sales, traffic or just to gain knowledge for a profit making endeavour.

The best way(IMO) to flush them out is a quick direct confrontation.

So..... welcome to the forum!



Tradecraft said:


> Well you guys are a suspicious group. NO, I am not the author which is good based on my writing skills. I am not as critical as some of you though. As a former law enforcement officer I felt the book did a great job on a very relevant topic. The Tucson shooting of Giffords is a great example of such information being used because officers had kits and were trained in their use. The book is new so there are not even a lot of reviews written on the book. I am going only on what I read IN THE BOOK.
> 
> Take the book or leave it as it does not matter to me. I thought the information was good. And, if anyone hear can throw a better book together please let me know because I will read it.


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## Tradecraft (Mar 3, 2014)

Darvarm - Apology accepted.

Unfortunately, I have nothing to plug...no website, product, blog...nothing.
But, I will share a resource only if I find it to be valuable and others may find some benefit.


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## hoser (Jan 7, 2014)

The shooting in Tucson had a decent outcome because university medical center has a world class trauma team/ center. Don't discount all that has to be done immediately after the bandages are on and the tourniquets go up


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

hoser said:


> The shooting in Tucson had a decent outcome because university medical center has a world class trauma team/ center. Don't discount all that has to be done immediately after the bandages are on and the tourniquets go up


Sure, no doubt, but with any serious injury the patient has to live long enough to get there and arrive with enough still in or on them to give the doc's something to work with.


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

Well, I have sat through continuing education classes dealing with tactical medicine. Never took a TEMS class (tactical ems) because there was no point. As of when I retired after 17 years, 9 as a medic back in 2009, no SWAT teams in my area of CT had use for them. 

PDs much rather train their own guys in the medicine than bring in a unknown person. That is great and all, but they are LE first. They have to do their first job before moving onto another. I am aware of only one town (that really had no business having a SWAT team) that had 2 FD medics train with them. And those guys were a little to gung ho about it if you know what I mean.

The other way of doing this that I saw was to have the SWAT guys bring the victim back to their staging area where a trauma doc was trained in their area of tactics and treated the victim.

In an active shooter situation, first you have to think about your own safety and yours. Do not plan on help coming to you. At least not very fast. If you want to carry a bag on you with all of these great gadgets, more power to you. But that is not me. Yeah I am antithetical to what most of us would want, but I feel a lot of these things can be handled by materials readily found or on your person.

TQ? I always wear a belt. On that belt is always a multitool and a knife in my pocket. Heck I have carried one of 2 gerbers everyday I put pants on for near on 20 years. Is a belt ideal for a TQ? Nope, but carrying one with me is not really that practical.

Chest seal? Find a smoker and use the cellophane wrapper from their pack. Tape on three sides. But who are we kidding, you got a sucking chest wound, you will probably be getting a pneumothorax and probably a hemothorax as well. Unless you have a chest tube in that bag, they gonna die. Even a needle is only good for a few - ten minutes. And that is if you have it set up the right way with valves or a syringe on it.

Quick clot? Sure, go ahead if you want to carry it. Really nothing compares. But I for one do not feel that it is the be all end all. Of course, this here is the internet, and I freely admit to never having used the stuff or trained with it. So my opinion ain't worth listening to on this. Same thing with amiodarone, no thanks, pass me the lido (anyone ACLS certified at least 5 years knows my reference, ACLS at least 8 years ago probably agrees with me).

I think my suggestion to people would be to learn up on some triage before wanting to dive to deep into this. And the same can be said for TSHTF and after it. You have a finite amount of medical supplies. You can easily use most of them in one futile situation. Call me a pessimist or a downer or whatever, but there is a reason people alive this minute can still get a black tag of death. It pretty much means that I have neither the resources or the time to treat you right now. That is the harsh reality of it. It was learned on the battlefield, and for our purposes, that is what we need to know.


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## Mase92 (Feb 4, 2013)

JimMadsen said:


> Well, I have sat through continuing education classes dealing with tactical medicine. Never took a TEMS class (tactical ems) because there was no point. As of when I retired after 17 years, 9 as a medic back in 2009, no SWAT teams in my area of CT had use for them.


Going to have to jump in here. This is not directly at YOU. But your post gives me lots of reference for what I wanted to say. So please, don't take this as a direct attack at you.
The military has show us, civilians once again medical personnel on scene rendering the RIGHT kind of aid saves; chaos, limbs and lives.



> PDs much rather train their own guys in the medicine than bring in a unknown person. That is great and all, but they are LE first. They have to do their first job before moving onto another. I am aware of only one town (that really had no business having a SWAT team) that had 2 FD medics train with them. And those guys were a little to gung ho about it if you know what I mean.


This is where PD has been wrong for ages. Not putting an experienced and knowledgable provider on the front line has cost life and limb. Training an LEO has merit, but the fact that trained person has zero experience will get others hurt, takes his mind off of his primary job and if someone goes down, you have now taken 2 or 3 swat operators to tend to the injured.

So while I understand and have seen the "gung ho" medically trained but having them there, an SOP in place and training with a SWAT type team in the long run only helps those that are injured.

How? Look no further than the military. USMC have Navy Corpsman a non offensive combatant that the Grunts would lay their life on the line for in a minute. 
Combat medics- once again a primary defensive figure but the cog that spins the wheel when an injury happens.
Special Forces personnel - will tell you to a man they'd rather have a corpsman/medic with them than a trained SF member do render aid. 
Who do all these guys scream for if hurt? MEDIC! On top of that the best of the best and the military's only paramedic...Air Force PJ's. 
All the above named roles are defensive but also fight if needed and will lay down suppressive fire to gain fire power superiority to get the injured off the X and then they are able to render emergent aid to get the wounded to definitive care. 
But somehow, state side LEO's have a better plan? I doubt it, it is old school thought and ego that get in the way of proper medical attention.



> The other way of doing this that I saw was to have the SWAT guys bring the victim back to their staging area where a trauma doc was trained in their area of tactics and treated the victim.


Not everyone has the resources to have a SWAT only doc. Those that do, still understand that there might be only 1 doc and 12 injured. Still need other medical providers.



> In an active shooter situation, first you have to think about your own safety and yours. <snip>


Well, i'm sorry I have to disagree here. I never thought of me 1st. Always my thought was the guy next to me. I was smart enough to understand if I was harmed, I couldn't help him. But I'd put my self on the line to keep him safe.

This is where a self aid buddy aid (SABA) program would help tremendously.



> TQ? I always wear a belt. On that belt is always a multitool and a knife in my pocket. Heck I have carried one of 2 gerbers everyday I put pants on for near on 20 years. Is a belt ideal for a TQ? Nope, but carrying one with me is not really that practical.


A belt is a great stand by but there is no substitute for a viable TQ or multiple TQ's. They weight almost nothing and in what the stats that have come out of the military, to NOT carry one is no longer practical. Depending on the duty or shift you are doing. Since my that I currently work for has been made to put TQ's on every ambulance, we have deployed them 4 times in less than a year. All 3 people lived (on guys got 2 TQ's).

Boston showed us, what the military has been proving to us for close to 15 years. TQ's should now be essential.



> Chest seal? Find a smoker and use the cellophane wrapper from their pack. Tape on three sides. But who are we kidding, you got a sucking chest wound, you will probably be getting a pneumothorax and probably a hemothorax as well. Unless you have a chest tube in that bag, they gonna die. Even a needle is only good for a few - ten minutes. And that is if you have it set up the right way with valves or a syringe on it.


The new standard is 4 sides. Sure 3 still works, but the seal has to be bigger than the injury, much bigger. Valves have never worked well, at least the finger from a glove we were taught in school, intrathoracic pressure won't allow for it long. If you look at the commercial devices the valve is MUCH more rigid. 
Getting a dart in the lungs should be almost immediate, if it closes, put another one. There is NO substitute for definitive care however there is no excuse not to continue the standard of care. If the needle clogs, use another.



> Quick clot? Sure, go ahead if you want to carry it. Really nothing compares. But I for one do not feel that it is the be all end all. Of course, this here is the internet, and I freely admit to never having used the stuff or trained with it. <snip>


Quick clot is not the miracle once thought. The powder can clog vessels and do internal damage. The Quick clot wrap is much better than the powder. The FDA labels these as bandages and not a drug (all hemostatic agents). But now, the new standard is manually occluding the vessel and packing the wound. Yes, packing the wound with a kerlex type material.



> I think my suggestion to people would be to learn up on some triage before wanting to dive to deep into this. And the same can be said for TSHTF and after it.


I wholeheartedly agree with this entire statement. Not only should you get the training but use it as well. Keep up to date and don't stop learning. As a 20+ year professional, you know as well as I do, current day people rely WAY to much on 911. What will they do when that isn't there? Better yet, what will they do when 911 is too busy to get to you?


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

Mase, I agree with 99% of what you said. But I think we are looking at it from differing viewpoints. I am now looking at it as a non-first responder. Someone who is just taking his kids to the movies.

I read your post as LE, EMS and Fire. Something the book at the start would help with. I am at work now but will get back and go through your post much more later. I think the conversation we have will be informative for most people that read it.

And as you can tell from some of what I said, my training is 5 years out of date... so be nice! lol

And I did not feel targeted in any way from your post.


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

Mase92 said:


> Going to have to jump in here. This is not directly at YOU. But your post gives me lots of reference for what I wanted to say. So please, don't take this as a direct attack at you.The military has show us, civilians once again medical personnel on scene rendering the RIGHT kind of aid saves; chaos, limbs and lives.


No attack received or perceived. But you said it right. Medical Personal on scene rendering the Right kind of aid. Amen brother. If you are medical personal with the bag next to you and the ambulance on the street, you should have the best of what has been proven to work in the field by our brave soldiers. You also should have the training to use it. If you are not medical personal, then you can quickly get in trouble with some of this stuff, and besides, who wants to carry a trauma bag to McD's?



Mase92 said:


> This is where PD has been wrong for ages. Not putting an experienced and knowledgable provider on the front line has cost life and limb. Training an LEO has merit, but the fact that trained person has zero experience will get others hurt, takes his mind off of his primary job and if someone goes down, you have now taken 2 or 3 swat operators to tend to the injured.
> So while I understand and have seen the "gung ho" medically trained but having them there, an SOP in place and training with a SWAT type team in the long run only helps those that are injured.


I agree 100% that LE is wrong on this. Without a trained and exp medical provider, their skills will be stagnant. That is the point that I was trying to make (albeit unclearly obviously) when I said the officer would focus on LE first and not medical. Please nobody think I am generalizing here. Just stating what may be a preponderance of situations. The gung ho referred to how those individuals act when NOT doing SWAT activities. Kinda like a REMF swagger? A side note, I have not had the honor of serving, would never make the claim or insinuation that I have, but military has been a large part of my family. I looked into a couple branches but medical issues did not make me an ideal candidate among other reasons.



Mase92 said:


> On top of that the best of the best and the military's only paramedic...Air Force PJ's.


Oh man, what I wouldn't give to do a ride along with these Heros. Have an Uncle that flew Army blackhawks. Been in a couple of them and the job looks FUN! Aside from the being shot at part. Whats the old saying, when a SEAL needs evac, they call PJ's?



Mase92 said:


> But somehow, state side LEO's have a better plan? I doubt it, it is old school thought and ego that get in the way of proper medical attention. Not everyone has the resources to have a SWAT only doc. Those that do, still understand that there might be only 1 doc and 12 injured. Still need other medical providers.


Yeah that's about covering it. I remember a few times I was threatened with arrest for not listening to the officer. As for the doc, he was a volunteer from the regional Level 1 Trauma Center. Probably a great idea, but you still need the trained people to get the victim to the doc. And someone to treat the others.



Mase92 said:


> Well, i'm sorry I have to disagree here. I never thought of me 1st. Always my thought was the guy next to me. I was smart enough to understand if I was harmed, I couldn't help him. But I'd put my self on the line to keep him safe.
> This is where a self aid buddy aid (SABA) program would help tremendously.


This appears to be from training again. Yes, your partner is your life. Same in EMS. But it was drilled into all of us time and time again "Scene Safety" and the first part of that is keeping yourself safe. And yes, self sacrifice to help is something that I would also do. However, when talking to non responders, they need to understand that they should not endanger themselves by say grabbing a car door handle and not seeing the downed power line? I like the cop-o-meter rule myself. Send the cop over, if he does not return, do not go over.



Mase92 said:


> A belt is a great stand by but there is no substitute for a viable TQ or multiple TQ's. They weight almost nothing and in what the stats that have come out of the military, to NOT carry one is no longer practical. Depending on the duty or shift you are doing. Since my that I currently work for has been made to put TQ's on every ambulance, we have deployed them 4 times in less than a year. All 3 people lived (on guys got 2 TQ's).


Yes, in a gear bag, a TQ should be available. If you find yourself in a high risk job, you should have one for yourself. Along with your own bag of saline. But that guy going to McD's? I think a belt is fine. IMHO.



Mase92 said:


> The new standard is 4 sides. Sure 3 still works, but the seal has to be bigger than the injury, much bigger. Valves have never worked well, at least the finger from a glove we were taught in school, intrathoracic pressure won't allow for it long. If you look at the commercial devices the valve is MUCH more rigid.
> Getting a dart in the lungs should be almost immediate, if it closes, put another one. There is NO substitute for definitive care however there is no excuse not to continue the standard of care. If the needle clogs, use another.


Did not know that about the 4 sides. See, been away for a while. And I was an Instructor for PreHospital Trauma Life Support! Yes, needs to be much bigger. But I typically think more about small caliber holes. The ones that I have dealt with. The larger caliber holes will require more, and ultimately a thoracic surgeon. The valve I was thinking about was a 3 way with a 30 cc syringe filled halfway with saline to allow for bubbling to escape. Yeah, the glove will work&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.. maybe. Commercial is the way to go for your gear bag. Not really your back pocket. 
Darting a lung: yes yes yes. I apologize profusely if I came across different. However, that being said. If you do not know how to do one (and practiced) then no no no! And how many times have you sat there with a baby back ribs at Ruby Tuesdays and started to count one&#8230; two&#8230; three&#8230;? lol



Mase92 said:


> Quick clot is not the miracle once thought. The powder can clog vessels and do internal damage. The Quick clot wrap is much better than the powder. The FDA labels these as bandages and not a drug (all hemostatic agents). But now, the new standard is manually occluding the vessel and packing the wound. Yes, packing the wound with a kerlex type material.


Oh thank heavens. I have been advocating that since joining the forum. And I got reamed a new one everytime I said no to quick clot.



Mase92 said:


> As a 20+ year professional, you know as well as I do, current day people rely WAY to much on 911. What will they do when that isn't there? Better yet, what will they do when 911 is too busy to get to you?


Oh the stories I have. And then there are those that drive themselves after having something minor to them. Like being shot in the chest. I can think of at least 3 that have done so!


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## Tradecraft (Mar 3, 2014)

JimMadsen said:


> Well, I have sat through continuing education classes dealing with tactical medicine. Never took a TEMS class (tactical ems) because there was no point. As of when I retired after 17 years, 9 as a medic back in 2009, no SWAT teams in my area of CT had use for them.
> 
> PDs much rather train their own guys in the medicine than bring in a unknown person. That is great and all, but they are LE first. They have to do their first job before moving onto another. I am aware of only one town (that really had no business having a SWAT team) that had 2 FD medics train with them. And those guys were a little to gung ho about it if you know what I mean.


Jim - I find so many points that you make inherently incorrect. While it is not my goal to offend you or anyone else I think you have completely missed the point. First, you admit to never taking a TEMS class and clearly you do not seem to know about TCCC. I don't know when you retired or who you worked for such as fire dept, private EMS, etc. but many medics in the future will be very familiar with TEMS because protocols for first responders are going to be significantly changing in the future regarding responses and roles of first responders.



JimMadsen said:


> In an active shooter situation, first you have to think about your own safety and yours. Do not plan on help coming to you. At least not very fast. If you want to carry a bag on you with all of these great gadgets, more power to you. But that is not me. Yeah I am antithetical to what most of us would want, but I feel a lot of these things can be handled by materials readily found or on your person.


Active shooter responses are changing albeit not fast enough. If you think a lot of these things can be handled by materials readily found on your person you are foolish. Not trying to be rude just practical. Do you really want to be looking for things to treat yourself or others when 1) there may be an active threat(s), 2) the scene may or may not be secure, 3) you are dealing with the psychological and physiological reactions to stress, and 4) you may be injured. My response is HELL NO!!! Additionally there are many commercially available products that are effective in saving lives but you choose to improve because you don't want to carry gear. You were quick to bad mouth the book Trauma Care for the Worst Case Scenario but I believe that the author hits the nail on the head. And, I have had law enforcement training and advanced medical training.



JimMadsen said:


> TQ? I always wear a belt. On that belt is always a multitool and a knife in my pocket. Heck I have carried one of 2 gerbers everyday I put pants on for near on 20 years. Is a belt ideal for a TQ? Nope, but carrying one with me is not really that practical.


To me this is pure and simple ignorance on your part and again indicative that you are not familiar with TCCC and the fact that rapid application of a tourniquet for severe bleeding saves lives. Again, in the book the author states you do not want to have to improvise a tourniquet when high quality ones are available. A C-A-T will work better than any belt you own!



JimMadsen said:


> Chest seal? Find a smoker and use the cellophane wrapper from their pack. Tape on three sides. But who are we kidding, you got a sucking chest wound, you will probably be getting a pneumothorax and probably a hemothorax as well. Unless you have a chest tube in that bag, they gonna die. Even a needle is only good for a few - ten minutes. And that is if you have it set up the right way with valves or a syringe on it.


Yes, a cellophane wrapper can work but not as effectively as a commercially available chest seal.



JimMadsen said:


> Quick clot? Sure, go ahead if you want to carry it. Really nothing compares. But I for one do not feel that it is the be all end all. Of course, this here is the internet, and I freely admit to never having used the stuff or trained with it. So my opinion ain't worth listening to on this. Same thing with amiodarone, no thanks, pass me the lido (anyone ACLS certified at least 5 years knows my reference, ACLS at least 8 years ago probably agrees with me).


Yeah, maybe Quikclot is not the be all end all but guess what? It is currently the BEST product on the market.



JimMadsen said:


> Call me a pessimist or a downer or whatever, but there is a reason people alive this minute can still get a black tag of death. It pretty much means that I have neither the resources or the time to treat you right now. That is the harsh reality of it. It was learned on the battlefield, and for our purposes, that is what we need to know.


Well we finally agree...you are a pessimist. Based on your post you are not current or relevant on advanced EMS and tactical consideration that apply today. In your world people die due to your pessimism. I choose to save lives by being current, relevant, and prepared. Even then I know people can still die!


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## Tradecraft (Mar 3, 2014)

Mase92 - Excellent and well thought out responses.


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## Tradecraft (Mar 3, 2014)

JimMadsen said:


> Yeah not much to the book. Something around 60 pages that talked a lot of common sense stuff and focused on nasal airways, chest seals and tourniquets. At least the author was real big on getting training to use these things. I would have preferred seeing a lead up to what this devices would be used for. Something like direct pressure, elevate, pressure point and then tourniquet.
> Not worth the read in my opinion.


I find it ironic that you say things like not much to the book, get wrapped up in the number of pages, and call the book common sense. Yet, based on some of your posts with outdated information I especially think you should be much more open-minded to the content of this book. When it comes to medical care "old school" is outdated and irrelevant! This is based on my years of law enforcement experience and advanced medical training. So, if you decide to write a book I will be more than happy to spend a few dollars on it and provide you with accurate feedback based on TTP's that are current as of today. I stand by my original post and think the book is excellent compared to a lot of the other options available. When someone comes out with a better book I will support it as well.


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## Tradecraft (Mar 3, 2014)

Well, I haven't read this one yet but Gunner Morgan has a new book called Building a Trauma Kit. I will be ordering a copy.

http://www.amazon.com/Building-Trau...&qid=1394503095&sr=8-2&keywords=gunner+morgan


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

But this all goes back to my original thoughts. In my opinion, this book is fine for people who do this type of work. I no longer do. 

Current ems or fire, current military or law enforcement will benefit from this. All I am saying is that in my opinion, common sense, triage skills and knowing how to make use of everyday items will server non medical people better than having a bag full of toys.

I am not trying to knock anyone, but I have seen many an educated medical person such as doctors completely screw things up because they have a toy they do not know how to use, or they do not know how to apply the training they have to a outside the er situation.

You are basing your review off of your years in law enforcement and you are pitching it to a community that is not le or medical or fire. Yes we have plenty that are, but more that are not. Would you want me to read a book about traffic stops, watch a few YouTube vids and go pull someone over? No you would not. I do not want someone without any training to do the things to other people that are in the book. I have had this opinion on this forum since I started. I will answer questions as I am able and as my sig states, anything I say is based upon my learnings. I freely admited that I have not had this training, but I would not want to follow the book myself. Who better than someone who once was able to do all this with the toys of the time (1992-2010) and the up to date training as of that time to review the book for people who did not receive any training. My hope is that those out there would determine that maybe they should not by a box of chest seals, but rather learn how to take care of other injuries and illnesses without burning through supplies.

This book is common sense for you, for me, for military or law enforcement. That is all it is. The equipment just changes. I have applied tq's, I have treated sucking chest wounds, I have worked with chest tubes, massive bleeding, mast trousers and on and on. Granted, I did this Before the toys came about discussed in the book. Last tq I applied was a thigh cuff to a guys arm after he sliced open his ac. And you know what, it worked. I have never used quick clot, never applied a commercial chest seal. Sometimes old school still works. And it is more likely you will have your brain with you then your tactical bag as you are Christmas shopping at the mall.

Yes old school is outdated. And in 3 years, current schooling will be outdated. That is the way it is. That is why there is constant recertification, constant cme's to take. Once you are out of the field, you fall behind.

We are not going to agree, but I would love to hear from someone without training, one of the other preppers on here, did reading this book get you to put together a active shooter kit?


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

Everyone, be sure to read this one by the same author! http://www.amazon.com/Psychology-Pr...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1394504214&sr=1-1

Not wanting to give this author any more money for his pamphlets, who is this guy? All I have seen for his education is former emt. No initials after his name either.


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## Tradecraft (Mar 3, 2014)

Well, I do not speak for Gunner Morgan but according to his book description he is targeting preppers. But, you are absolutely correct that it is the person and not the gear that really counts. You can have the latest and greatest equipment but in the hands of an untrained person it is useless or worse dangerous. I also think that having the ability to improvise is necessary but only as a last resort. Iraq and Afghanistan has dramatically changed the way medical care is given in trauma related cases. And while preppers may not have the skills now they should be attending training to get the skills. There are so many places that now offer really solid training.


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## Tradecraft (Mar 3, 2014)

JimMadsen said:


> Everyone, be sure to read this one by the same author! http://www.amazon.com/Psychology-Pr...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1394504214&sr=1-1
> 
> Not wanting to give this author any more money for his pamphlets, who is this guy? All I have seen for his education is former emt. No initials after his name either.


I found a Facebook page for Gunner Morgan at: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Gunner-Morgan/844967922186315

According to his profile he writes:

Author Gunner Morgan has written multiple books related to survival, medical care, self-defense, and reality television. All of his books are available at Amazon.com.

His book "Trauma Care for the Worst Case Scenario" is a huge success which is being followed by his current release of "Building a Trauma Kit" which is gaining a lot of attention from first responders and the prepper community.

His books include:

- Trauma Care for the Worst Case Scenario
- Building a Trauma Kit
- Practical Defense for the Untrained Person
- Psychology of Preppers: Mental Health Issues
- "Reality" in Reality Survival Shows

So, who is Gunner Morgan? Well I am a very private individual with years of experience in law enforcement, emergency medicine, and an advanced degree in psychology. I have numerous black belts from different martial arts styles, and have been a law enforcement defensive tactics and firearms instructor. I have taught and created training curriculum on low-light shooting, use of force, mindset, and other related skills.

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The page seems new and it looks like he is just getting his FB page going.


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## Mase92 (Feb 4, 2013)

I know this thread veered off topic alot, however thanks to those that came in and participated. It was conversational and informative.

Jim it's so nice to see that not only do you know your stuff, but you are also willing to listen to the changes that have come about. Even thou you might not be doing it anymore, EMS is always. in. you. LOL

Great stuff guys.


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