# Alternative to Radios?



## SlkVoom

Got a Feeling I'm gonna get ripped apart for this some. I'm more on the fact of wanting to look for a way of communication for ease, even up to the point before a bug out situation happens. On the other hand, the people I keep around with and contact are without the radios really. 

Any Good suggestions otherwise? :scratch


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## k0xxx

What type of distances are you talking about? Military field phones can provide some very localized comms, but need to be hard wired together. They're best suited to static positions like immediate neighbors or tactical OP/LP uses.

Realistically, unless you're talking about line of site and manual signals, radios are going to be the way to go. For easy basic and local comms around town or a generalized rural area, it's hard to beat a few yard sale CB's and cheap antennas.


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## SlkVoom

Thanks for the information

I was thinking on the alternative to the radio in a way. But then again that is probably cause I'm more of the kind that sits by to the point of still liking to use the cellphone or lan lines that I have in case otherwise. I mean, before any big fall or such they can be used effectively still. Also, the fact that a mass broadcast seems like one big thing to do but never enough to get more out there really since most of those I do keep in contact would look at me funny if I was using a radio at all.


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## NaeKid

The biggest problem I see with what you are asking for is the fact that you are not in control of the system. The moment you are out of the control, someone else could easily disable your communications. There are reliable ways of communicating, but there are none that cannot be hacked or disabled or recorded. Hardline phones can be cut-off, cell-phones could be disabled due to too many people trying them at the same time, HAM, CB-Radio or FRS could be listened-on easily - or disabled due to a CME or similar radiation-situation.

At that point, pen-n-paper or felt-pen on the door or even a chalk message on the sidewalk might be what you are looking for. A simple coded message might suffice. *Visiting UncleTom, see you there* written down will not mean anything to a general reader, but, to a friend it might mean that you are down at the grave-yard or hospital or even at the BugOutLocation (BOL) ... and they are supposed to make haste to get there.

Preparing for emergency communications is just one part of the whole for making sure family-n-friends can get back together quickly and easily.


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## Jim1590

OK I do not remember the term for this feature, but Nextel (now Sprint/Boost) had their push to talk network, and they DID have some phones that would do the iDEN (push to talk) without a network being active. The range was maybe a half mile. And you would be able to basically turn the phone into a walkie talkie with everyone on a preset freq. This was marketed more towards public safety (I was a paramedic for 9 years) but the phones were available to the public.

I am at work now, but will do some thinking and see if I can remember the model numbers. When Sprint bought Nextel, they screwed it all up by putting iDEN onto the internet connection for the phone. Trust me, the service sucked after that (if you had a new phone that did that, old ones were fine.)

I will post back when I recall more.


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## Jim1590

Got it. Nextel Direct Talk:

http://shop2.sprint.com/en/services/walkietalkie/offnetwork.shtml

But it appears that Sprint shutting down Nextel anyways in 2013. Although that should not affect these....


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## 101airborne

The issue IMO with cellular and or landlines are when the "grid" goes down they will be useless. Radios however without interference or jamming will pretty well keep working Heck you can get a good CB set up that will talk 40-50 miles for under $200. Short range you can get walkie sets starting at $30. Ham radio starting at $150. IMHO have options never limit your self to only one (or two) forms of comm's, just like you don't want to limit yourself to one way to build a fire, get water, food source.


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## Jim1590

The Direct Talk works without the towers and has a range of 6 miles according to Sprint. It is designed I guess for if the grid is down, communication is not.


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## musketjim

Good thread. Comm is a one of the gaps in my planning that I'm always trying to figure out and get a grip on. Lots of good ideas here and in similar threads.


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## TopTop

If you are going old school, don't forget the old cylinder coder/decoder for written messages. Very simple, but it works.


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## SlkVoom

Figure I would reply up on that one and see what would come up. I keep on looking around on other things for those times before the Grid goes down. Since I am willing to invest into the radios for if it does happen but having something for before it does and can be used to help get out is a bit on the nicer side. 

I mean, heck we have early warning systems and such already? so what about other services we can find also out there to help with before it all goes dark.


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## TheLazyL

Communications without radios.

Location A. City with population of 1 million plus. Family A, young married couple with 2 small children. 
Plan. Load up ASAP and drive 75 miles to Location B with the intent to caravan with Family B to Location C. If no one is home at Location B, check back side of decorative rock for code. Code indicates Family B has already left (for secondary BOL) and which of the 3 routes they are traveling on.

Location B. City with population of 1 thousand plus. Family B, young married couple with no children.
Plan. Wait as long a practical for Family A before heading to Location C, 100 miles. Route 1 or 3 if vehicle(s) run. Route 2 if they have to walk out. All 3 routes converge at a cemetery at 75 miles, and then diverge into 3 routes again.

Location C. Wooded lot with a close Town with a very small population. Family C, married couple in their 50’s with 2 grandmothers and trustworthy neighbors. Secondary BOL.

Day 0. SHTF trigger, all communications are down, unable to contact either Family A or Family B. 

Day +1. When either Family arrives they rest and replenish supplies. They then determine if it is safe to continue on to the primary BOL (Location D, 150 miles) or wait for the other Family. 

If Family A and B is a no show, assumption is they are on foot.

Day +2. If vehicles or shielded UTV do not run, Family C male walks to cemetery convergent point, 25 miles.

Day +3 If vehicles work or if shielded UTV runs, Family C male drives to 25 miles to cemetery convergent point. 

When Family C male arrives at cemetery convergent point he checks a particular head stone. If either family has been there, then their particular code and which of the 3 routes they have continued on will be marked on back of head stone. A Route 2 indication confirms they are on foot. No code indicates they have not passed this point (not good). Family C male determines to either wait (as long as practical), leave supplies, or try and catch up to them on their way to Location C (if they have already passed the cemetery), or return to Location C. In no case what so ever does Family C male continue on towards Location B!


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## xring3

smoke signals, drums, can and string, yelling....just adding some humor.


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## Fn/Form

NaeKid said:


> The biggest problem I see with what you are asking for is the fact that you are not in control of the system. The moment you are out of the control, someone else could easily disable your communications. There are reliable ways of communicating, but there are none that cannot be hacked or disabled or recorded. Hardline phones can be cut-off, cell-phones could be disabled due to too many people trying them at the same time, HAM, CB-Radio or FRS could be listened-on easily - or disabled due to a CME or similar radiation-situation...


There are a few decent security options for purchase or DIY. You can buy radios with plug-in speech inversion. Ex-federal "suitcase"/ handheld systems also pop up crom time to time. Ham radio D-STAR is a niche mode, not many people have the radios, and it really helps cut down on noise, intermod and does worlds better at fringe range. Data transmission is also possible at low speed... last I checked.

DIY includes things like your own LAN or HSMM-MESH, and they can do voice and data. Their mode alone may preclude easy eavesdropping. Just remember that encryption is not legal in some of these modes.


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## dataman19

There are always the good ole "smoke signals".
..
Seriously, SHTF Comms will be chaotic - at best. For a small Rural community I would suggest organizing and installing a fiber optic comms system.
..
Right now 18-39 fiber cable is reasonable (and if you possess the right purchasing skills - absolutely cheap). I am talking like $300 per mile (5,280 feet of cable).
..
Fiber has no RF radiation signature, it is not easilt detected when buried in the ground (unless you are following the trencher and "see" the dirt path).
..
Burying fiber is not that difficult. My favorite scenario is a trencher and a cable reel holder. Followed by a couple of BobCat skip loaders. Just start up the trencher, point it in the direction you want to go - and have at it. Trench the path, unspool the cable (lay the cable) and bury it as you continue on.
..
Or, lay 2" and 3" cable ducts now and "pull fiber" later. This way you could essentially lay out the network and install things like terminal boxes, repeater/node boxes/enclosures, etc. In fact, you could essentially run ducting from house to house and down the street now. As more neighbors sign on to the project you can just install the fiber as needed (without having to retrench).
..
Fiber modems are almost as cheap as DSL (incidentally, don't discount DSL. Two DSL modems can talk to each other over a single 1500 foot cat 5 cable pair (a cat5 cable could yield two DSL point to point links).
...
In fact, a DSL link can interconnect two ethernet switches, which interconnect to computers and "other switches (using two more DSL modems). This is known as Dry Pairing.
..
The fiber network works the same (just has a 25 mile limitation on node to node - cheap fiber modems in the sub $50 category have a 1-5 mile limitation). But fiber can yield a higher bandwidth. While two DSL modems on a single Cat5 pair can have a 1,000-1,500 foot distance limitation and be capable of providing 12MBps data rate - Fiber would easily top 5-miles and can yield up to 45MBps data rate.
..
But the main point is the stealth - fiber can be in the ground (bury it at least 6-feet deep - mine is at 16 feet in depth). Most commercial fiber is only 3-4 feet deep. If you go deeper it will most likely not be discovered as easily.
...
There is a virtual ton of used and new surplus fiber equipment available out there. Crystal fiber is now showing up on the surplus/excess market. Crystal fiber is basically unrestricted and can run any modem equipment. While Single Mode (the preferred long haul fiber choice) has some bandwidth limitations, like 12-35nm or 35-85 um (light wavelengths). The installation of "crystal" fiber will allow you to add Optical wave multiplexers at a latter date - effectively quadrupling or 12X the link capacity of any single fiber pair. This will equate to an economical expansion possibility.
..
The down side: Fiber is in the ground. You can't just pull it up and throw it across a field to get fiber to another location. You will have to trench and or pull the new fiber down an existing duct or like I said - retrench to the new location. Fiber equipment also needs power. While you can bry power cable to distribute power for the fiber equipment, in doing so you are installing a metallic signature that "can be" detected (there is a trade off that you will have to factor into your plans).
...
Still, fiber can be easily buried and can be expanded quickly using quick install just below the surface in a rush/emergency contingent.
..
So think about the possibility of installing fiber.
..
Especially if you have a large percentage of neighbors who subscribe to the notion of being prepared. If need be, you can set up a video distribution network using the "spare fiber pairs", even a "community Closed Circuit Video Surveillance" network. That should build momentum. Everyone would like to be able to see criminals in :"their neighborhood" before the criminals can cause havoc and property damage.
..
Yea that's the ticket. A fiber Network.
...
Dave
Phoenix, AZ


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## zombieresponder

dataman19 said:


> There are always the good ole "smoke signals".
> ..
> Seriously, SHTF Comms will be chaotic - at best. For a small Rural community I would suggest organizing and installing a fiber optic comms system.
> ..
> Right now 18-39 fiber cable is reasonable (and if you possess the right purchasing skills - absolutely cheap). I am talking like $300 per mile (5,280 feet of cable).
> ..
> Fiber has no RF radiation signature, it is not easilt detected when buried in the ground (unless you are following the trencher and "see" the dirt path).
> ..
> Burying fiber is not that difficult. My favorite scenario is a trencher and a cable reel holder. Followed by a couple of BobCat skip loaders. Just start up the trencher, point it in the direction you want to go - and have at it. Trench the path, unspool the cable (lay the cable) and bury it as you continue on.
> ..
> Or, lay 2" and 3" cable ducts now and "pull fiber" later. This way you could essentially lay out the network and install things like terminal boxes, repeater/node boxes/enclosures, etc. In fact, you could essentially run ducting from house to house and down the street now. As more neighbors sign on to the project you can just install the fiber as needed (without having to retrench).
> ..
> Fiber modems are almost as cheap as DSL (incidentally, don't discount DSL. Two DSL modems can talk to each other over a single 1500 foot cat 5 cable pair (a cat5 cable could yield two DSL point to point links).
> ...
> In fact, a DSL link can interconnect two ethernet switches, which interconnect to computers and "other switches (using two more DSL modems). This is known as Dry Pairing.
> ..
> The fiber network works the same (just has a 25 mile limitation on node to node - cheap fiber modems in the sub $50 category have a 1-5 mile limitation). But fiber can yield a higher bandwidth. While two DSL modems on a single Cat5 pair can have a 1,000-1,500 foot distance limitation and be capable of providing 12MBps data rate - Fiber would easily top 5-miles and can yield up to 45MBps data rate.
> ..
> But the main point is the stealth - fiber can be in the ground (bury it at least 6-feet deep - mine is at 16 feet in depth). Most commercial fiber is only 3-4 feet deep. If you go deeper it will most likely not be discovered as easily.
> ...
> There is a virtual ton of used and new surplus fiber equipment available out there. Crystal fiber is now showing up on the surplus/excess market. Crystal fiber is basically unrestricted and can run any modem equipment. While Single Mode (the preferred long haul fiber choice) has some bandwidth limitations, like 12-35nm or 35-85 um (light wavelengths). The installation of "crystal" fiber will allow you to add Optical wave multiplexers at a latter date - effectively quadrupling or 12X the link capacity of any single fiber pair. This will equate to an economical expansion possibility.
> ..
> The down side: Fiber is in the ground. You can't just pull it up and throw it across a field to get fiber to another location. You will have to trench and or pull the new fiber down an existing duct or like I said - retrench to the new location. Fiber equipment also needs power. While you can bry power cable to distribute power for the fiber equipment, in doing so you are installing a metallic signature that "can be" detected (there is a trade off that you will have to factor into your plans).
> ...
> Still, fiber can be easily buried and can be expanded quickly using quick install just below the surface in a rush/emergency contingent.
> ..
> So think about the possibility of installing fiber.
> ..
> Especially if you have a large percentage of neighbors who subscribe to the notion of being prepared. If need be, you can set up a video distribution network using the "spare fiber pairs", even a "community Closed Circuit Video Surveillance" network. That should build momentum. Everyone would like to be able to see criminals in :"their neighborhood" before the criminals can cause havoc and property damage.
> ..
> Yea that's the ticket. A fiber Network.
> ...
> Dave
> Phoenix, AZ


You've piqued my interest. Can you recommend sources for learning more?


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## Meerkat

Do like Reuters did,he used homing pigions.thats how he to began his news broadcast.I think it was Reuters?


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## blarg

JimMadsen said:


> The Direct Talk works without the towers and has a range of 6 miles according to Sprint. It is designed I guess for if the grid is down, communication is not.


The direct talk feature used to be marketed as a way for companies to keep their cell minutes down for employees that talked short distances.

I think the old commercials always used to show construction workers talking at a big job site. They showed farmers talking between tractors too I think.

The frequency range was a nice score Nextel got when the FCC sold off what used to be the cab driver CB range. I'm paraphrasing from an old telecom informer article in 2600 magazine.

The whole thing was a nice way to limit cell minutes and not have to carry a handheld radio plus work phone in the 90's.


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## Tweto

What a great thread! Great information!

Here is the only non-standard types of communications that I can think of.

Unique flags that by themselves or in relation mean something. Post in high places so they can be seen from a long way with a spotting scope of good pair of binoculars.

I like the homing pigeon idea posted already.

I carry a hand held locating strobe light in my survival bag (can-be seen for 5 or more miles at night). Whats good about it is it can also be used to attract the bad guys while you lay low or escape.

In the past few years Personal locators for humans and dogs have become popular. Some are non GPS and just use radio signals to locate.

Non standard 2 way radios for OpSec such as; Marine or Aviation radios used on land. Not sure of the range for Marine radios, but a good aviation radio will get out 50-100 miles on frequencies that almost no one will be monitoring.

Sound of gunshots for communications.

The Navy still uses the light guns.


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## gabbyj310

I've got a "good"set of "walkies as my son and his family are just down the road.( Got to keep them from the kids as they aren't TOYS)Looking into a "good" CB radio for the daughter as she is about 60 miles away and with a good antenna should be able to communicate while she Bugs Out to my house.I once used red spray paint to make a route to a fishing camp in rural Puerto Rico,but think there should be more discreet ways if and when things turn bad.Just hope I'm in my BOL(and my home) by then.


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## laylow

Going to be buying a few military field phones for experimentation.

http://store.colemans.com/cart/field-phone-german-p-775.html
http://store.colemans.com/cart/german-army-field-phone-2-pack-p-2771.html
Not affiliated with that site, just what seems like a good price on a pair of phones.


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## cnsper

You can also set up a telegraph between locations. Someone beat me to the smoke signals and drums. Pigeons are a good method unless they come across a hungry hunter. Difficult to hit those little buggers though. Runners/riders Indians communicated this way as well as the army.


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## Jimthewagontraveler

I went to a "fun house" once 
Full of screaming kids and bang clanging noise from all the other
toys.
The ones that impressed me the most was 2 funnels ( plastic
no electricity) that were pointed at each other 100 yards apart
You could whisper to each other and hear just fine.


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## GaryS

My uncle...a WWII combat vet... once set up a rural telephone net using surplus field phones and existing barb wire fences. He crossed the gravel roads through a culvert , or dug a shallow trench if it was the only way to cross. He had a half-dozen families on his net for several years.


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## laylow

He ran the signals over barbed wire?


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## GaryS

laylow said:


> He ran the signals over barbed wire?


Yes, but he was far smarter about those things than I will ever be. He was a comm technician in the army, had worked as a lineman for the electric co-op, and was a self-taught television repairman when TV was just an infant industry. About the only technical thing I can add is that wood fenceposts were all that anyone used during that era, so metal post grounding wasn't an issue.


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## tes151

Is it possible to encrypt a CB radio transmission? If so, that my work in a small community for secure communication.


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## jsriley5

Possible but not legal pre teotwaki. And if the equiptment is out there I haven't found it yet.


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## Canadian

Flare gun and coloured flares.


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## cnsper

You can make a field phone from an old handset and a battery. You know, the old desk type phones. I don't remember off the top of my head how to do it any more but it can be done.

You can also buy a cheap phone system and set that up fairly easily. Lots of times you can get one with phones for under $500. There is a limit on distance for the digital phones but the analog will go much farther.


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## tommixx

how about gmrs any input


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## kappydell

so does a key word code. face to face is most secure - written in code is next IMHO. anything on airwaves can be listened in on, not good for opsec. loose lips sink ships. take lessons from history - if you must use airwave coms, add a code to confuse the casual eavesdropper/snitch


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## Outpost

tommixx said:


> how about gmrs any input


I've invested rather heavily in GMRS for the simple reason that it is, in fact, short-range. I've not bothered with the 45-50 watt mobile units for that reason. Radio communications are, for us, going to be no more than 2-5 miles. We can't depend on a repeater, and if we needed to, chances are CB or HAM would serve us better.

The terrain around here (New Hampshire) tends to absolutely clobber UHF, so the nonsensical advertized "ranges" of "36 Miles" is nothing less than a statement of insanity. With my 4 watt handhelds, I can count on about 1/2 mile in dense woods and about 6 miles from on top of the ridge to the bottom of the valley we live in.

We have CBs (a tad chatty, but not too bad around here) for longer range if needed, and I'm currently experimenting with eXRS (not sure, but I heard that TriSquare [the manufacturer] went out of business).

If you do decide to do something with GMRS, here's my advice;
Purchase a couple real radios like Icoms, or something that is actually built for professional quality. Here's what I've learned in the past years of "playing around" for the right radios.

If it has 22 channels, chances are it's a P.O.S. - Ones that only do GMRS and the GMRS/FRS (Interstitials) are 16 channel.

If it doesn't have an antenna designed to be removable, chances are it's a P.O.S. - A "real" radio will allow you to use an external antenna. With UHF it's expensive, but worth it if you need to set up a "small" base station (read the definitions from the FCC. They're actually useful.)

If it cost you under $100, chances are it's a P.O.S. - There's a bunch of so-called "GMRS" radios out there that are nothing more than toys with the frequencies required to do GMRS. Their output isn't clean so therefore they put power to frequencies and harmonics that take away from the proper transmission. Their circuitry is inefficient so the batteries don't last. They may advertise a bunch of watts, but their crappy circuitry doesn't put all of it to the antenna.

Get at least 1 good business or professional quality radio for each adult. There will be a lot of good uses for the cheap "bubble-pack" toys you see at wal-mart and radio-shack, and you may want to stock up on some of them (I have), but don't use them as the primary radio.

If you get some "REAL" GMRS radios and use them for a while, you'll REALLY begin to understand what I'm talking about.

And oh....

Go ahead and spend the $85 to GET THE LICENSE!!!!!! Even those cheap crappy things in the bubble-wrap *legally require a license*, and right now, there's no reason to not have one. Once you have it, NOBODY can question your use or tell you to shut down because you're interfering. The license, by the way, covers your _*ENTIRE IMMEDIATE FAMILY*_!!!!!!

All the best!


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## Jimthewagontraveler

Ocean going steamships had a long pipe that went from the
bridge to the engine room I would imagine they must have been pretty
Useful as coms between those stations were life and death issues and I have never heard a quiet engine room


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## Outpost

cnsper said:


> You can make a field phone from an old handset and a battery. You know, the old desk type phones. I don't remember off the top of my head how to do it any more but it can be done.


When I ran an old modem-based BBS I had schematics to set up a couple standard analog phones. I found this schematic on the web and it looks *very* familiar.

http://www.repairfaq.org/ELE/F_ASCII_Schem_Tel.html#ASCIISCHEMTEL_010

The parent page (the one that linked to the above URL) has a few simple circuits that may be of help / interest.

http://www.bowdenshobbycircuits.info/

Certainly, things like this would be a great convenience in the event of a neighborhood-wide event that knocked out phones. (something, perhaps, similar to the one my family faced in 2006 when the town was isolated due to a flood, even though we did, still have phone service throughout.)

-


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## xring3

Just look stupid (I'm good at this) and develop a jibberish code....people will leave you alone.


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## whyisdaddy

What about the galexy quest its npt sold in the us but can be bought in canada it over 400 chanels


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