# Lessons learned buying cryptocurrencies



## BillS

Back in May I made some quick money buying Ethereum. After that I tried selling when it dropped and buying it back when it went up again. Ultimately I lost some of the gains I would have otherwise made.

I also bounced around between Ethereum, Bitcoin, and Litecoin. There were some big price drops. By September 22nd I had managed to turn $2100 into $1185.88.

I finally decided to just buy Bitcoin and hold it regardless of where it was on a day to day basis. In the last month it's risen faster than the other two. It went from a low of $3560 to $6120 today. So now I'm at $1961.31. I'll break even when it hits $6544.

There are signs that Bitcoin is going to keep going up. CNBC reported in a survey that the majority of people surveyed think Bitcoin will hit $10,000.

Then you have articles like this:

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/19/josh-brown-goes-down-the-bitcoin-rabbit-hole-commentary.html

Here's just part of it:

*The percentage of people in this world who are even aware of crypto currencies or their potential is effectively zero. *The asset class itself is only $170 billion as of this week. That sounds like a lot, but compared to other asset classes or commodities or currencies, it's a joke.

The stampede is coming

*I mentioned a few weeks back that you can practically smell it in the air - the big money is coming into this space.* I can't imagine how that doesn't blow the price up into the stratosphere. For all of Jamie Dimon's protestations, his firm is experimenting with cross-border transfers using blockchain. So is every other major financial institution - or at least they're thinking about it and planning it.

*The big rumor going around is that Goldman Sachs is going to launch market-making in crypto currency for their clients in the third quarter of 2018.* I don't know if that's true or not, but multiple people who don't know each other are saying it. And why wouldn't they? If that's what their customers are asking for (and they are), then of course they will. This is the institutionalization of something that right now is still on the fringes of finance. What will that mean for the prices of coins?

Pensions and endowments

*Another thing that was kind of hinted at - pension and endowment money dipping a toe in. We're talking about trillions of dollars in these pools. *If even 1% of that starts looking for allocation, forget about it. Ari Paul from Blocktower says the pensions aren't coming in until the custodian issues are worked out. With a traditional investment like a stock or a bond, your big risk is that they will drop in value. With crypto, you have that issue too, but then *you have an added risk that you don't have with stocks and bonds: Your holdings can disappear from theft! Nobody worries about their stocks being stolen. Everyone worries about their coins being hacked.* Solidifying the custody system is going to take time.

Ari mentions that someone asked him "When will the University of Chicago buy in?" His reply is "Six months after Yale does." Everyone laughs. But it's true. The way Ari looks at it, right now, if someone at a college endowment takes the risk upon his or herself to buy Bitcoin, they face ridicule or a firing. But eventually, that career risk flips around the other way. Imagine someone from the Yale Endowment makes a splash in Bitcoin and gets written up everywhere for how forward-thinking they are. All of a sudden the CIOs at all the other endowments are being questioned "Why the hell didn't you do that? Did you even look at it?" This is how manias are fueled, by the way - institutional a-- covering. They all did this with hedge funds in the 90's and commodities in the 00's. It hasn't begun yet in this arena.

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My comments:

Bitcoin is up 864% in the last year. I see no reason why it won't be $50,000 in a few years.

It doesn't matter that a single Bitcoin is $6120 right now. You can buy it using any amount of cash that you want. $1000 in Bitcoin could easily outperform any other investment over the next three years.


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## bbqjoe

Way over my head.
I'm guessing if TS ever hits the F, they won't be worth squat, and you won't have access to them anyway with a downed grid.


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## bkt

"Buy low sell high" isn't over anyone's head.

Dumping some cash into bitcoin (or ethereum, litecoin, etc.), letting it rise in price 20%, then heading over to APMEX or Provident Metals and buying silver or gold as a means to preserve wealth isn't a dumb idea at all.


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## Flight1630

For those of you who want to download the tables for bitcoin via satellite. That way you don't use mega data.
https://www.rtl-sdr.com/receiving-the-bitcoin-blockchain-from-satellites-with-an-rtl-sdr/


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## RedBeard

I don't even have a bank account for my real money. Maybe i have trust issues... No way im buying fake money.


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## dademoss

I count on lead, brass, and the supplies in my pantry, everything else is a maybe.


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## VoorTrekker

The stupidest question is the one which will never be answered. 

How do I buy Bitcoin? Is there a brokerage? What are the advantages of Bitcoin?

What is Bitcoin and why is it in existence?


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## bkt

VoorTrekker said:


> The stupidest question is the one which will never be answered.
> 
> How do I buy Bitcoin? Is there a brokerage?


There are several and a quick google search will describe the process. See here, for example.



VoorTrekker said:


> What are the advantages of Bitcoin?


From an investment perspective, short-term growth lately has been outstanding.



VoorTrekker said:


> What is Bitcoin and why is it in existence?


If you want to learn what cryptocurrencies are, how they work, and what the appeal is, there's no shortage of info on youtube and google.


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## bkt

dademoss said:


> I count on lead, brass, and the supplies in my pantry, everything else is a maybe.


Yeah, so do I, but I also have a 401k, Roth IRA and other means of preserving wealth. If you're not into saving, cool. Most folks are, and cryptocurrencies can help accelerate the rate of wealth accumulation.


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## bkt

RedBeard said:


> I don't even have a bank account for my real money. Maybe i have trust issues... No way im buying fake money.


You think U.S. dollars are real money?


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## azrancher

VoorTrekker said:


> How do I buy Bitcoin? Is there a brokerage? What are the advantages of Bitcoin?
> 
> What is Bitcoin and why is it in existence?


You send me your worthless $$$ via PayPal, and I will make the transaction for you. You can buy bitcoin on most street corners in Detroit. The advantage of Bitcoin is it's not backed by a worthless government, in fact it's not backed at all, so the Government doesn't know who owns what, and if you have to pay taxes on your gains, then you must use $$$ and not BC.

Why is it in existence, well PT Barnum didn't say this but one of his circus competitors did,... There's a sucker born every minute.

*Rancher*


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## crabapple

Do not do Crypto.
But stocks gave me over 300% profit.
Timber was free, no cost to me & all the pine straw & dead limbs I could use.
Made good on land sale.
I do not know anything about Crypto, I will stay with what I know.
Maybe more copper, brass & silver.


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## dademoss

bkt said:


> Yeah, so do I, but I also have a 401k, Roth IRA and other means of preserving wealth. If you're not into saving, cool. Most folks are, and cryptocurrencies can help accelerate the rate of wealth accumulation.


Me too. I have IRA's, Roths, etc etc etc, whatever my Wealth Manager says I need. Bonds, stocks, the list is endless.

It's all numbers on a screen when the EMP goes off, so what I have in HAND is what I count on. Blacksmithing skills, gardening, livestock, water, shelter, pantry, THAT IS WHAT IS REAL.

Gold and silver? Trash unless you find somebody to trade for it. Bitcoins are even worse, who will take your printout of "WEALTH? when you want a rabbit to eat? I have coffee, you have a shiny metal thing. All I will say is "YUMMM, coffee".

Just saying, you pursue your "wealth" , I will pursue mine.


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## bkt

dademoss said:


> Blacksmithing skills, gardening, livestock, water, shelter, pantry, THAT IS WHAT IS REAL.


I agree 100%.



dademoss said:


> Gold and silver? Trash unless you find somebody to trade for it.


History says differently. So does the guy I bought an M1 Garand from with PMs. I don't trust crypto any more than I trust conventional currencies, which is why I use cryptocurrencies to buy PMs.



dademoss said:


> Just saying, you pursue your "wealth" , I will pursue mine.


I'll go out on a limb and suggest pretty much everyone here agrees up front that the most important issues at hand are exactly what you mention: skills. If you haven't developed your skill set and don't have a means to see to your immediate needs, please don't waste your resources on cryptononsense.

But taking things a step further in the context of wealth preservation in the event the currency du jour craps out is what this thread is about.


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## RedBeard

Caribou said:


> :rofl:Too late, it's all fake money, or do you carry around gold or silver.


Valid and good point!


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## RedBeard

bkt said:


> You think U.S. dollars are real money?


No but it's at least printed monopoly money. Full of stripper dander, cocaine, and other who knows what. My savings is not made up of anyones fake money. ....


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## Meerkat

Buying Cryptocurrency may be your 'Cryptonite,


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## BillS

A year ago today Bitcoin was trading at $700. Now it's trading at over $7000. What if it's trading at $70,000 a year from now? I'm guessing that 90% of the people who are against it now will still be against it a year from now even if I'm right. 

I don't plan on cashing in any Bitcoin anytime soon but when it hits $10,000 I'm going to buy a brand new $1,000 Alienware desktop computer to celebrate.


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## rhrobert

lol, when it hit $7100 last week my son cashed out and bought a quadrunner. He bought his btc at $75 per  
I, like BillS will be holding mine until the 10,000 mark..unless I see something I don't like.
As before, crypto helped build my house and buy the equipment. Naysay all you want, I'm far better off now.


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## SheepdogPRS

Electronic money, paper money and paper shares in precious metals are all fake money. All of that will disappear in a grid down event. The money you have in the bank will be inaccessible, your stocks and bonds are not available, your bitcoin account is gone, and that gold that you had shares in is gone. You have the cash in your stash that will work for a day to maybe a week after and then there is no money. There will be little need for gold or silver because people will need clean water and food. After a week people will need waste removal and medical goods. Gold and silver can protect that wealth for after the bad times but it will carry very little value during the event.


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## bkt

Yup, exactly right. That's why we learn to prep.


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## drfacefixer

RedBeard said:


> No but it's at least printed monopoly money. Full of stripper dander, cocaine, and other who knows what. My savings is not made up of anyones fake money. ....


Stripper glitter... it sounds better.


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## drfacefixer

BillS said:


> A year ago today Bitcoin was trading at $700. Now it's trading at over $7000. What if it's trading at $70,000 a year from now? I'm guessing that 90% of the people who are against it now will still be against it a year from now even if I'm right.
> 
> I don't plan on cashing in any Bitcoin anytime soon but when it hits $10,000 I'm going to buy a brand new $1,000 Alienware desktop computer to celebrate.


We finally agree on something! Bitcoin has something good going. You just really have to do your homework since it's so different from other commodities. Wish I would have been in on it 10 years ago. I've put a few bitcoins in a safe spot just to see where it goes.


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## labotomi

Just like any investment, you should understand where you're putting your money.

Blockchain tech is the future. Banks are moving to it. Blockchain is what digital currencies are base on but it doesn't have to be a digital currency to utilize blockchain tech. Right now each particular currency is still just a gamble. Bitcoin seems to have more support than others for the time being so it's future seems brighter. That doesn't mean some other with better/faster transactions won't take over in the future.

Bitcoin, litecoin, ethereum, bitcoin cash, burstcoin etc. are similar but have a different stated purpose. Some of the currencies are basically redundant to others that already exist and probably won't stick around long.



Also, prepping isn't limited to end of society type scenarios. I try to prep for all possibilities one of which is that there isn't a collapse.


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## BillS

SheepdogPRS said:


> Electronic money, paper money and paper shares in precious metals are all fake money. All of that will disappear in a grid down event. The money you have in the bank will be inaccessible, your stocks and bonds are not available, your bitcoin account is gone, and that gold that you had shares in is gone. You have the cash in your stash that will work for a day to maybe a week after and then there is no money. There will be little need for gold or silver because people will need clean water and food. After a week people will need waste removal and medical goods. Gold and silver can protect that wealth for after the bad times but it will carry very little value during the event.


That's all true. Your good investments will protect you during periods of high inflation and when the government comes back after the collapse. They're not substitutes for prepping.

I'm wondering if the powers that be WANT people in cryptocurrencies instead of physical metals. They can buy up physical metal on the cheap. They could even buy cryptos but get out before the governments get together and shut them down.

The bond market, stock market, and real estate markets are in bubbles. When they pop we could see trillions going into cryptos. I think one Bitcoin selling for one million dollars is definitely possible. Despite the huge upside to Bitcoin I'm not comfortable with selling some of my metals to buy more Bitcoin.


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## bkt

BillS said:


> A year ago today Bitcoin was trading at $700. Now it's trading at over $7000. What if it's trading at $70,000 a year from now? I'm guessing that 90% of the people who are against it now will still be against it a year from now even if I'm right.
> 
> I don't plan on cashing in any Bitcoin anytime soon but when it hits $10,000 I'm going to buy a brand new $1,000 Alienware desktop computer to celebrate.


Current bitcoin price is $10,042.30. Enjoy your new computer.


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## rhrobert

$11,000 at the moment. Going to take a little out for a nice xmas present for the fam.


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## BillS

Bitcoin is going up faster and faster. Once it broke $2,000 it took as many as 62 days to reach the next thousand. Yesterday it went from one thousand level to the next in 10 hours. Now it's gone up over $2,000 in just the last hour!! I'm still deciding when to cash out my original investment. 

The best case scenario for cryptocurrencies is that there's a paradigm shift in the money system. That people will trust cryptos more than fiat currencies because of the supply limitations already built in.


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## TechAdmin

I haven't cashed my investment out...I've been buying a small amount weekly...so hopefully it will continue to find a place in society.


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## JayJay

Today, each bitcoin transaction requires the same amount of energy used to power nine homes in the U.S. for one day

Sleep better now????


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## JayJay

mike_dippert said:


> I don't doubt for a second that cryptocurrency is around for the long haul. Lately, I've been thinking about buying $100 of the next best 3. While Bitcoin is growing exponentially, I believe that will lead to a collapse driven by panic as investors cash out entirely, or shift to other brands such as Ethereum or Litecoin (there are over 1300 in existence, so there's plenty of options).


Or cobalt???


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## Sentry18

I don't have a link or the details, but I heard a couple people talking about how a large portion of bitcoin was stolen/hacked or something? Anyone know what that's about?


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## dademoss

Here are some details on the theft: https://www.coindesk.com/nicehash-ceo-confirms-bitcoin-theft-worth-78-million/


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## rhrobert

dademoss said:


> Here are some details on the theft: https://www.coindesk.com/nicehash-ceo-confirms-bitcoin-theft-worth-78-million/


And it didn't even cause a blip, up over 17000


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## FrankW

A good friend of mine made 5 digit profits with Bitcoin this year.
with a relatively small investment too.
He had the extra spare $$ to invest though and I would struggle to kick loose even a grand right now (unless I convert Silver into $$)

I still dont think I will go in on it.
Why?
For one bitcoin is kinda the anti-prepper currency as its 100% dependent on a functioning grid.
and even more importantly with the huge growth its seen this year there is no ways its sustainable.
Riding a bubble up is great but I dont want to buy _during_ the bubble.


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## ssonb

you are right ,The cryptocurrency Is the ultimate Anti-prepper investment..If you do not hold it in your hand it does not exsist, The same with gold bonds,silver trading papers FRNs, ect, ect..... If the economy or the grid does collapse at least with FRNs and stock certificates you will have something to look at and FRNs do not even make a good fire starter. Someone once stated that in the advent of some type of disastrous collapse (entre your favorite here) "At the start of such a collapse cash will be KING and then quickly will be trash." You have to have anything in your possession immediately or be able to access it right now.


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## BillS

Ultimately it depends on what collapse scenario you're prepping for and whether or not you want to hedge your bets. My biggest concern is hyperinflation where I could be forced to eat all of my stored food before the collapse.

I'm sure we'll see a complete economic collapse but I see hyperinflation coming first. It could be gradual or there could be a black swan event that shatters confidence in the dollar. We could see inflation at 10% a month and millions of people are looking for a safe place to put their money. Coin dealers will be out of coins because everybody wants to buy and nobody wants to sell. Maybe they will only accept Bitcoin. There could be trillions of dollars going into cryptocurrencies. The dominant exchange in America is coinbase.com. There you can only buy Bitcoin, Ethereum, and Litecoin. 

The amazing thing about Bitcoin is that not only is it going in dollar value faster and faster. It's doubling faster and faster. It's gone up $8,000 or 80% in the last two weeks. It's almost at $19,000 right now. It could be at $30,000 by the end of the year. It could pass $100,000 sometime in March. 

I'm probably going to sell $3,000 worth of gold and buy more Bitcoin. If Bitcoin starts approaching $1 million I'd love to have enough of it to be able to get $400,000 for it. Then buy some awesome prepper property in Upper Michigan. Of course there's always the risk that the powers that be will shut it down somehow. That's why it's still a good idea to eventually take out your original investment and then some profits. That's also why I'm not going to take out a mortgage on my house and put it all in Bitcoin.


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## ssonb

I see your point on trying to diversify but be careful, this is just like all the other get rich schemes that have come and gone in the past. Yes there is the allure of the "promise" of sidesteppin taxes but these "investment" opportunities always have something special about them that will appeal to your inner greed, Its just another bubble like silver with the Bunker bros, .com , real estate. The bubble only lasts as long as there are more and more people investing, that way some payouts can be issued . Either the cash influx will slow or the government will get involved to "protect" all those poor investors that did not realize that in this game there are no guarantees. If you cant afford to lose it don't use it in this arena.


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## BillS

ssonb said:


> I see your point on trying to diversify but be careful, this is just like all the other get rich schemes that have come and gone in the past. Yes there is the allure of the "promise" of sidesteppin taxes but these "investment" opportunities always have something special about them that will appeal to your inner greed, Its just another bubble like silver with the Bunker bros, .com , real estate. The bubble only lasts as long as there are more and more people investing, that way some payouts can be issued . Either the cash influx will slow or the government will get involved to "protect" all those poor investors that did not realize that in this game there are no guarantees. If you cant afford to lose it don't use it in this arena.


There are a lot of people who agree with you. Some people see a bubble. Others see it as a craze like beanie babies. I agree that if you can't afford to lose it you shouldn't be investing in it.

We're already seeing people from the banking, investing, and political establishment criticizing Bitcoin every day. As the crypto universe grows and grows there could be significant restrictions on it. Maybe you won't be able to put cash into it or get cash from it but you could buy stuff with it. Maybe your local Ford dealer will take your $10,000 in Bitcoin as a downpayment on a new truck.

You could say that the crypto market is like the beginning of an underage drinking party. It's not going to end well. But if you get there early and leave early you'll be OK.

For awhile Bitcoin was going up faster and faster. Last week it peaked on Coinbase at $19,979 or so. I put $3000 more into Bitcoin. I was up to half a Bitcoin. Then a couple of days ago it was below $14,000. I sold it all then. It dropped to as low as $10,500 before rebounding. I bought it all back when it was in the $13's. I ended up with a little more Bitcoin than I had before.

A week or so ago I thought it was going to hit $30,000 by the end of the year. Right now it's in the $15's so I don't see that happening.

So anyway, this is the second time I've seen it go up faster and faster only to have a crash.

Over the last few months there are the Bitcoin prices:
06-23-17 $2,681
07-23-17 $2,768
08-23-17 $4,173
09-23-17 $3,712
10-23-17 $5,783
11-23-17 $8,066
12-23-17 $15,401


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## BillS

*Bitcoin isn't coming back like it used to. *It used to be 58% of the entire crypto market. Now it's 34%. If it stayed at 58% Bitcoin would be $28,500 right now instead of $17,000.

With the wild swings of Bitcoin and moving in and out of Ethereum *I lost about 15% of my money*. Plus I had a lot of lost income by staying in Bitcoin too long. *Things can change rapidly in the crypto market.*

Earlier in the week I sent my Bitcoin from Coinbase to Bittrex. Yesterday I diversified into 17 different cryptos. I have 12 of the top 17. *Today I'm up 6%*.


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## labotomi

BillS said:


> *Bitcoin isn't coming back like it used to. *It used to be 58% of the entire crypto market. Now it's 34%. If it stayed at 58% Bitcoin would be $28,500 right now instead of $17,000.
> 
> With the wild swings of Bitcoin and moving in and out of Ethereum *I lost about 15% of my money*. Plus I had a lot of lost income by staying in Bitcoin too long. *Things can change rapidly in the crypto market.*
> 
> Earlier in the week I sent my Bitcoin from Coinbase to Bittrex. Yesterday I diversified into 17 different cryptos. I have 12 of the top 17. *Today I'm up 6%*.


I hope you're researching the alt coins before investing in them. 95% of them aren't going to end up with a useful platform. Others are not what I would refer to as cryptocurrency as it's centralized (eg. ripple). A lot of them sound promising but have no working product (tron).

Look at the whitepapers and see if they have a workable time frame, good developers and a vision that is worthy of your investment. Don't buy into technobabble with a high powered public relations team selling hype.

Also if the price is rising way faster than normal it's probably not the best time to buy. Look at the trend and realize that it will continue basically at that rate. You can get luck when it goes into a parabolic rise if you already own it but it's very risky to buy as you found out. Panic selling isn't a good idea either as you lock in your losses.

Korea is driving a lot of the alt coin market and it seems more like gambling than investing right now. I would be surprised if bitcoin didn't reclaim a good portion of the market share it has lost recently when the majority of coins show that they are incapable of delivering what was promised.


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## drfacefixer

I knew you were a smart guy and had a hand on the pulse on opportunity. 

This crash the past two weeks was a much better time for people to enter the market if they hadn’t been in pre November - although the low pickup only lasted a few hours. It was a scary time for noobs, but if you’ve been in the game for a while it’s nothing we haven’t seen before. If you’re into crypto, you got to get on some form of social media be it twitter or reddit. ( although many on these boards shun SM) The market closely follows the chatter of those involved. Media outside of the crypto circle couldn’t be more wrong about what’s really going on in the market or forecasting any big moves. This last consolidation was the easiest 2-3x I’ve ever made. Not playing with any more than I could afford to lose, but a month in crypto beat my earning from years with precious metals.


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