# Spring Gardening: preparation to bounty.



## Neec0

I decided to start this thread instead of taking up the SFG thread.

The Jist:
New to gardening. Trying my hand at Square Foot Gardening this year due to a bad plot of land (former dog run) where we eventually will have our full garden.

This year I decided to build cheap raised beds and work on the soil at the end of the growing season. I will get the "dog run" tested, here soon to know for sure, but I have been amending the soil with grass clippings all summer (2012) before I knew it was unusable. I have tilled in a ton of fresh soil from our 30 fence posts as well. Hopefully It won't need much work to be usable soon.

The plan is to put the raised beds on this ground and then in the fall, till all the soil back into the original ground and have it tested again.

Anyway-

Started my first seeds this weekend! We shall see how they do.

Day 1

Brandywine Maters
Chives
White Sweet onions
Green onions
Jalapeños
Green/Red peppers
Cilantro


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## PackerBacker

Just a tip.

When those seedlings sprout that light needs to be right on top of them. As in almost touching the leaves or you will end up with leggy spindly weal plants.

Why is the dog run considered "a bad plot of land"?


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## Neec0

PackerBacker said:


> Just a tip.
> 
> When those seedlings sprout that light needs to be right on top of them. As in almost touching the leaves or you will end up with leggy spindly weal plants.
> 
> Why is the dog run considered "a bad plot of land"?


Everywhere I have researched and quite a few "seasoned" growers have said the dog manure that was there is extremely bad for veggies... Carcinogens from the food they eat.

Once they sprout I will be moving them to a different location then. I didn't know the light had to be that close! Thanks for the tip!


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## Davarm

Neec0 said:


> I didn't know the light had to be that close! Thanks for the tip!


I agree with PackerBacker on the light, the closer the better but, you will need more that one to do the job.

I start my seeds in plastic basins about the same physical size as your planters and I use three per basin, its just barely enough to keep the seedlings from bolting to the light source.


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## thenance007

You will also want to remove the clear plastic cover as soon as they begin to sprout, and from then on, water from the bottom and try to keep the surface of the soil a bit on the dry side to prevent damping off.

The tomatoes and peppers need warmth to germinate (70ish) but the rest will germinate at cooler temps. As soon as they are up, you can move them all to cooler temps (55-60ish). They will grow a bit slower but much sturdier that way.


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## Neec0

Davarm said:


> I agree with PackerBacker on the light, the closer the better but, you will need more that one to do the job.
> 
> I start my seeds in plastic basins about the same physical size as your planters and I use three per basin, its just barely enough to keep the seedlings from bolting to the light source.


I am going to move them to the basement most likely, slightly cooler (65ish) but almost completely dark. I have a second light like the first one, and can certainly buy more, they are cheap enough. Thanks for the tips!



thenance007 said:


> You will also want to remove the clear plastic cover as soon as they begin to sprout, and from then on, water from the bottom and try to keep the surface of the soil a bit on the dry side to prevent damping off.
> 
> The tomatoes and peppers need warmth to germinate (70ish) but the rest will germinate at cooler temps. As soon as they are up, you can move them all to cooler temps (55-60ish). They will grow a bit slower but much sturdier that way.


Yep, the instructions said to remove the plastic once sprouted. It is 70 in the kitchen (if not a bit warmer in mid day). Does the planter still need to be warmed? Is it ambient temp or the temp of the water/soil?


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## PackerBacker

Neec0 said:


> dog manure that was there is extremely bad for veggies... Carcinogens from the food they eat.


Interesting. I'd never heard of that. You have to do your own homework but take what you read on garden websites with a grain of salt too. Many are such nazis about it that they couldn't realistically grow anything on a "need to" basis.


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## Neec0

PackerBacker said:


> Interesting. I'd never heard of that. You have to do your own homework but take what you read on garden websites with a grain of salt too. Many are such nazis about it that they couldn't realistically grow anything on a "need to" basis.


Understood.

Here is one example from a study done by Washington State University. You can also just google, "is dog manure bad for my garden".

http://gardening.wsu.edu/stewardship/compost/petpoop.htm


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## PackerBacker

I've heard of that but that is about parasites. The odds of that being a problem are extremely slim and using raised beds in that same area doesn't mitigate the issue, if there is any.


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## AuroraHawk

You may want to take a page from Kevin's book.

A Garden For The House - What to Winter Sow and When

He is in hardiness zone 5a, a harsher winter area than your area which is 5b.

I'm in 7a and didn't get started as early as I wanted but I have spinach, parsley, mixed lettuces, purple kohlrabi, sage, thyme growing outside now. Two days ago I planted brandywine, peacevine cherry and yellow pear cherry tomatoes, Little Leaf pickling cucumbers, romaine, cinnamon basil, fine leaf basil, lovage and borage. As soon as I can get more Jiffy pellets I will be planting, muskmelon, watermelon, spicy globe basil, chives, garlic chives, German chamomile, catnip and a lot more herbs. Once Davis finishes making my raised bed taller (this week) I will be planting peas, carrots, fennel and beets.


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## Neec0

PackerBacker said:


> I've heard of that but that is about parasites. The odds of that being a problem are extremely slim and *using raised beds in that same area doesn't mitigate the issue, if there is any*.


If the raised beds use a pre-made soil, how is that not getting rid of the issue? The bed will be tall enough that no root reaches the bad soil.

Do you suggest that I just sow them directly in the soil? That is the ultimate goal, and if I don't have to spend the coin to make the beds, the happier the wife is. :sssh:

Whats more: we have lived in the house since last may. I have added all the earth from our new fence, and tilled in all of our grass clippings (1/3 acre, all lawn). The previous owners had their dogs caged on the 10x20 foot spot for as long as the neighbors can remember... I wonder if most of the bad juju has either been washed or buried away by now?

Time for a soil sample to be sent to UNL for analysis.


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## PackerBacker

Neec0 said:


> If the raised beds use a pre-made soil, how is that not getting rid of the issue? The bed will be tall enough that no root reaches the bad soil.


The "issue" here is exposure to the soil. you're still exposed between the bedsThe plants can't take up the parasite.



> Do you suggest that I just sow them directly in the soil? That is the ultimate goal, and if I don't have to spend the coin to make the beds, the happier the wife is. :sssh


Yes.



> Whats more: we have lived in the house since last may. I have added all the earth from our new fence, and tilled in all of our grass clippings (1/3 acre, all lawn). The previous owners had their dogs caged on the 10x20 foot spot for as long as the neighbors can remember... I wonder if most of the bad juju has either been washed or buried away by now?


Sunlight is your best friend. I'd venture to say that your repeated tillings has killed off any risk.

I also don't care for the raised bed sfg gimmick.


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## PackerBacker

AuroraHawk said:


> You may want to take a page from Kevin's book.
> 
> A Garden For The House - What to Winter Sow and When
> 
> He is in hardiness zone 5a, a harsher winter area than your area which is 5b.
> 
> I'm in 7a and didn't get started as early as I wanted but I have spinach, parsley, mixed lettuces, purple kohlrabi, sage, thyme growing outside now. Two days ago I planted brandywine, peacevine cherry and yellow pear cherry tomatoes, Little Leaf pickling cucumbers, romaine, cinnamon basil, fine leaf basil, lovage and borage. As soon as I can get more Jiffy pellets I will be planting, muskmelon, watermelon, spicy globe basil, chives, garlic chives, German chamomile, catnip and a lot more herbs. Once Davis finishes making my raised bed taller (this week) I will be planting peas, carrots, fennel and beets.


What difference does zones make here?


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## Neec0

PackerBacker said:


> The "issue" here is exposure to the soil. you're still exposed between the bedsThe plants can't take up the parasite.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Sunlight is your best friend. I'd venture to say that your repeated tillings has killed off any risk.
> 
> I also don't care for the raised bed sfg gimmick.


Interesting.

Thanks for your opinion!


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## cengasser

Well we were running a bit late.
Potatoes in, corn and some green beans and carrots.
We're on the way....


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## thenance007

Neec0 said:


> Yep, the instructions said to remove the plastic once sprouted. It is 70 in the kitchen (if not a bit warmer in mid day). Does the planter still need to be warmed? Is it ambient temp or the temp of the water/soil?


Soil temp is all that matters for germination. Air temp and soil temp matter for growing. 70 degrees should be fine. They will germinate over a range of 15 to 20 degrees, just takes longer if it is cooler.


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## Neec0

thenance007 said:


> Soil temp is all that matters for germination. Air temp and soil temp matter for growing. 70 degrees should be fine. They will germinate over a range of 15 to 20 degrees, just takes longer if it is cooler.


Thanks! Still no sprouts, but its only been 5 days or so.


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## Neec0

Well, we have sprouts and lots of them! Except for the Peppers... I think they may need to be warmer than we are offering.

I think I see what you guys meant by "leggy" plants though... These guys have reached for the stars, while I was trying to plan the next move for them. Only took two days and they were 3 inches tall. Now we have them directly beneath the light and have given each planter their own light source. In the pics, you can see the second planter with its own light in the background. Also, most of the sprouts have straightened up after the addition of the foil. We were rotating them every few hours so that they would bend as much, but now that the foil is there, they are mostly shooting straight up.


















My next question is, how do you decide which ones to keep? We planted between two and four seeds per slot (depending on the plant) and now, in some cases we have three sprouts in the same slot. How do you transplant/move them? Or do you just pick the strongest looking ones and pull the others?

Thanks again for all the help.


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## 8thDayStranger

I need it to stop raining for a little while here!! Plan was to plant first week of April. Had a friend come to break up a new plot two weeks ago. He got the top three inches tilled up and hit mud. We decided to wait a week for it to dry up and hit it again then cut in the compost so it would have two weeks to sit before planting. Well it has rained every other day since the first till. I now have a three inch deep mud hole and no break from the rain in sight. I already transplanted seedlings to larger pots but I'm afraid ill have to transplant again before I can get them in the ground. Very frustrating. Lesson learned to start earlier to get the plot ready.


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## PackerBacker

Wow those are leggy.

Anytime you see the plant bend for light you know you don't have enough.

I would use a scissors and thin them down to the 1 or 2 best plants. Only leave two if there is a good separation between them. To transplant I use a flat wide handle of a teaspoon to help me slide the "plug" out of the tray and then carefully separate the two. If I damage one of the two I don't bother to uppot that one.

When you transplant you can plant them deeper to overcome some of that legginess.


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## ContinualHarvest

Using all of the fancy grow lights and tillers might be a bit harder post SHTF. I start all of my seeds indoors, underneath my windows. The wife has learned to deal with it for a couple of weeks during the spring. Yes, it's less uniform but it does two things for me. One, the weakest plants don't make it. It's not worth putting time and energy into weak plants that won't produce as much. Two, it provides plants an opportunity to harden off albeit at a much much easier rate than growing them outside. But it gets them used to changing temperatures so they dont' shock as much when i start to take the flats outside for a couple hours each day.


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## Neec0

PackerBacker said:


> Wow those are leggy.
> 
> Anytime you see the plant bend for light you know you don't have enough.
> 
> I would use a scissors and thin them down to the 1 or 2 best plants. Only leave two if there is a good separation between them. To transplant I use a flat wide handle of a teaspoon to help me slide the "plug" out of the tray and then carefully separate the two. If I damage one of the two I don't bother to uppot that one.
> 
> When you transplant you can plant them deeper to overcome some of that legginess.





ContinualHarvest said:


> Using all of the fancy grow lights and tillers might be a bit harder post SHTF. I start all of my seeds indoors, underneath my windows. The wife has learned to deal with it for a couple of weeks during the spring. Yes, it's less uniform but it does two things for me. One, the weakest plants don't make it. It's not worth putting time and energy into weak plants that won't produce as much. Two, it provides plants an opportunity to harden off albeit at a much much easier rate than growing them outside. But it gets them used to changing temperatures so they dont' shock as much when i start to take the flats outside for a couple hours each day.


So wouldn't these two statements contradict each other?

On one hand, My plants are leggy and don't have enough light, yet they get light for 16 hours a day. On the other hand, CH starts his under a window, and there isn't enough light in the daytime cycle to fulfill 16 hours of continuous light.

Which is proper? I think it may be a matter of _opinion_, that is found by the boatload on the net.

Thanks for your input either way!

What is the solution to "leggy" plants? I will google it as well and find 1000 more opinions :beercheer:.

Thanks for the tips on how to weed out the weaker plants though, the spoon is a good idea.


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## PackerBacker

Even though you are providing enough length of light you are not providing enough volume of light.

16 hours isn't necessary unless you are looking for max growth under lights.

My light setups have 6 bulbs for four 1020 trays sitting parallel to each other. Most _kits_ have 4 lights for that setup but I have found it to be not quite enough.

So you should have at least 4' of bulb per 1020 tray. I like 6' better. The age of the bulb also matters here. Older bulbs don't have the output or spectrum newer bulbs have.

It'd even be better if you were to take the lens of your bulb and rotate your tray daily.


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## ContinualHarvest

Neec0 said:


> So wouldn't these two statements contradict each other?
> 
> On one hand, My plants are leggy and don't have enough light, yet they get light for 16 hours a day. On the other hand, CH starts his under a window, and there isn't enough light in the daytime cycle to fulfill 16 hours of continuous light.
> 
> Which is proper? I think it may be a matter of _opinion_, that is found by the boatload on the net.
> 
> Thanks for your input either way!
> 
> What is the solution to "leggy" plants? I will google it as well and find 1000 more opinions :beercheer:.
> 
> Thanks for the tips on how to weed out the weaker plants though, the spoon is a good idea.


The advice Packer is giving is fine as long as you're able to provide the additional artificial light. The part about thinning out then seedlings is good advice as well. Sure you'll get a more plants that way but what I go for is stronger, more vigorous plants. Quality over quantity. Also, keeping in mind that there may not always be bulbs or power to light the bulbs. You're going to want seeds from plants that are completely acclimated to the natural conditions of your area. Look for open pollenated local heirloom seeds.


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## Neec0

So what if I don't have the space nor setup to provide 4 lights per single tray? Is what I am doing going to produce plants that will goto harvest and provide us with fresh veggies? My plants will be transplanted as soon as we get passed our last freeze, then they will have all the sunshine they could want.

Is this just opinion on growing super plants versus regular plants? I am new to this and don't need to go down the "expert" tract right away. Not trying to be rude or condescending here, just trying to weed out the facts vs preference.


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## ContinualHarvest

If your goal is to produce one season's worth of food. Right now, with full power available etc, then the methods described above are fine and a great. I use lights in the greenhouses. Very convenient for a quick production of market packs for a year.
But if your goal is to have a stable continuos way to feed yourself after a SHTF scenario, you're going to want acclimated plants that are vigorous in your area. You're going to want to learn how to save seed from the best plants and that means the plants that grow the best in your slice of the Earth given the conditions that occur naturally.


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## PackerBacker

You can get perfectly good plants yet. Just not shoved up under the cabinet without more light.

IMO you need to at a minimum is get that tray into a good bright window or replace your light with a double 2' bulb fixture.


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## Neec0

ContinualHarvest said:


> If your goal is to produce one season's worth of food. Right now, with full power available etc, then the methods described above are fine and a great. I use lights in the greenhouses. Very convenient for a quick production of market packs for a year.
> But if your goal is to have a stable continuos way to feed yourself after a SHTF scenario, you're going to want acclimated plants that are vigorous in your area. You're going to want to learn how to save seed from the best plants and that means the plants that grow the best in your slice of the Earth given the conditions that occur naturally.


I have plenty of garden space for a substantial garden. For now I want to take a crack at my first true garden and have a good possiblity of success and a decent bounty. I am trying to provide some fresh goodness to our family. In a SHTF scenario, we wouldn't have light at all and these would have been sown directly in the ground.

With that said, I am using what little knowledge I have to try and get a head start for some of the more productive plants. I don't need extensive amounts of goods, just enough to can a few jars worth of salsa and fresh veggies for the family.

Also incase I failed to mention it: The pictures show day 1 of the new spots, with the plants next to the lights and the tinfoil. They sprung up fast and caught us off guard, otherwise we would have moved them closer to the lights sooner. Today is day 2 close to the lights.

A direct question: Will my plants survive, or do I need to do something right now to solve the Leggy plants?


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## Neec0

PackerBacker said:


> You can get perfectly good plants yet. Just not shoved up under the cabinet without more light.
> 
> IMO you need to at a minimum is get that tray into a good bright window or replace your light with a double 2' bulb fixture.


In the window will not work, as I have a 5, 3 and 1 year old that will knock down whatever I put there! Ha.

I will look at a better light fixture.

Thanks!


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## ContinualHarvest

Yes, this year, your plants given proper care will be just fine.
It'll give you time to learn and get some jars in the cellar. Just remember the seedlings need thinning, keep the strongest two in case you break one during transplant. They'll need potting up soon if you cant get them in the ground. We got about 5 inches of snow last night, so we're not near time for planting delicate seedlings yet. 
One of the biggest mistake I see new gardeners do is take a tray of seedlings right from a temperature controlled environment and plop them in the ground then wonder why they all died over the next couple of days. Be sure to harden them off first.


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## Neec0

ContinualHarvest said:


> Yes, this year, your plants given proper care will be just fine.
> It'll give you time to learn and get some jars in the cellar. Just remember the seedlings need thinning, keep the strongest two in case you break one during transplant. They'll need potting up soon if you cant get them in the ground. We got about 5 inches of snow last night, so we're not near time for planting delicate seedlings yet.
> One of the biggest mistake I see new gardeners do is take a tray of seedlings right from a temperature controlled environment and plop them in the ground then wonder why they all died over the next couple of days. Be sure to harden them off first.


Should I pot them up into their own dixie cups? The soil they are in is still wet from the initial planting. We haven't added water yet, there is still water in the bottom of the plastic container, soaking up into the soil. I followed the directions and thought that it was too much water to begin with, but hey, follow instructions the first time and amend thereafter.

I have a bag of the Miracle Grow seedling mix that I used with the tablets that came with the grow kit, will that mix work fine or do I need to add anything too it?


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## ContinualHarvest

Neec0 said:


> Should I pot them up into their own dixie cups? The soil they are in is still wet from the initial planting. We haven't added water yet, there is still water in the bottom of the plastic container, soaking up into the soil. I followed the directions and thought that it was too much water to begin with, but hey, follow instructions the first time and amend thereafter.
> 
> I have a bag of the Miracle Grow seedling mix that I used with the tablets that came with the grow kit, will that mix work fine or do I need to add anything too it?


It'll work alright just mix in some regular potting soil too.. You want your soil to be about the dampness of a wrung out sponge, or you risk damping off disease. It'll kill your plants. Depending when you can get them in the ground, they might do well in about 3 inches of growing medium (depending on the species of plant), or they will get root bound (and will damage roots) and compete for nutrients resulting in weaker plants.


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## PackerBacker

Neec0 said:


> Should I pot them up into their own dixie cups?


Yes but you can wait a bit yet.


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## Neec0

ContinualHarvest said:


> It'll work alright just mix in some regular potting soil too.. You want your soil to be about the dampness of a wrung out sponge, or you risk damping off disease. It'll kill your plants. Depending when you can get them in the ground, they might do well in about 3 inches of growing medium (depending on the species of plant), or they will get root bound (and will damage roots) and compete for nutrients resulting in weaker plants.


Sounds good! Thank you!

Now for light. I know I need more. I will look at a spot in my basement where its about 60-65 and I would be able to setup a more intricate lighting setup. I haven't used a "grow light" bulb yet, just the one that came with the small florescent kits. I am not looking to invest that much in the lighting this year either. Should I just buy a few more of the $12 kits or spend a bit more and get a dual 4' setup? I just don't know where I can hang/put something that big and be able to adjust the height of either the plants or the lights...


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## Neec0

PackerBacker said:


> Yes but you can wait a bit yet.


To fix the leggyness, shouldn't I bury them a bit deeper so that that stem is supported more? Or let them be for a week or so?


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## PackerBacker

Neec0 said:


> Sounds good! Thank you!
> 
> Now for light. I know I need more. I will look at a spot in my basement where its about 60-65 and I would be able to setup a more intricate lighting setup. I haven't used a "grow light" bulb yet, just the one that came with the small florescent kits. I am not looking to invest that much in the lighting this year either. Should I just buy a few more of the $12 kits or spend a bit more and get a dual 4' setup? I just don't know where I can hang/put something that big and be able to adjust the height of either the plants or the lights...


Hang the light from small chain for infinite height adjustment.

Mine are shop light and came with the chain.


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## Neec0

PackerBacker said:


> Hang the light from small chain for infinite height adjustment.
> 
> Mine are shop light and came with the chain.


That's the thing. I don't really have anywhere in the basement to hang them. I suppose I could hang them over the bar, and raise them up when not in use, but I don't like taking away a functional area! Ha.

Thanks for all the wisdom. Sorry if I ask too many questions. The internet is full of varying opinions and it helps to have a clear picture from a trusted source.


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## PackerBacker

Neec0 said:


> That's the thing. I don't really have anywhere in the basement to hang them. I suppose I could hang them over the bar, and raise them up when not in use, but I don't like taking away a functional area! Ha.
> 
> Thanks for all the wisdom. Sorry if I ask too many questions. The internet is full of varying opinions and it helps to have a clear picture from a trusted source.


Make something like this for a buck or two. Remember some of this stuff is an investment. You can use it multiple times a year and for many years.


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## Neec0

PackerBacker said:


> Make something like this for a buck or two. Remember some of this stuff is an investment. You can use it multiple times a year and for many years.


Pure genius.

Many thanks. I can make something like that work and not lose too much space.

Would it be wise to maybe build it in the garage (semi temp controlled to around 55-60 deg) would this help harden the plants? If so, I can build that setup and it would work perfect for us. I have maters, onions, chives and peppers (no sprouts from the peppers, thinking they may need a bit warmer than ambient temps in the house)...

Also: what type of regular bulb works? Or do I need a grow light bulb? I have been using the t-whatever.


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## PackerBacker

Neec0 said:


> Pure genius.
> 
> Many thanks. I can make something like that work and not loose too much space.
> 
> Would it be wise to maybe build it in the garage (semi temp controlled to around 55-60 deg) would this help harden the plants? If so, I can build that setup and it would work perfect for us. I have maters, onions, chives and peppers (no sprouts from the peppers, thinking they may need a bit warmer than ambient temps in the house)...
> 
> Also: what type of regular bulb works? Or do I need a grow light bulb? I have been using the t-whatever.


Temp isn't that important here. One plant might like lower and another like it higher. I'd say anything between 50 and 70 will do.

I use all grow bulbs. Many use one of each. I'm not sure how much it really matters.


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## Neec0

Picked up one of these from Home Depot over lunch... Will work perfect. Thanks for the tips Packer. About how far from the tops of the plants do you suggest the light be? I got T8 Soft White bulbs (they didn't have any T8 4' grow bulbs).


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## PackerBacker

Set it so it just clears the leaves.


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## Neec0

Much Better! (at least I hope...)


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## Neec0

Also- Back to the dog run and my soil. Should I send a sample to be tested professionally? Or will a kit at the store work to see the pH levels and what not? I still think I want to do raised beds with bottoms (maybe just screen/weed mats). But if my soil is fine after a year of no dog poo and 5-6 tillings with grass clippings/leaves and a boat load of fresh non-dog poo soil added, I would like to sow directly in the ground and not have to worry about SFG as much. 

Searching the internet turns up so many varying opinions that it is often overwhelming.


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## Neec0

New garden layout. Added lettuce and strawberries. North is the bottom of the pic. Moved the taller plants so they are on the north side... Anyone see an issue with this layout?


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## Neec0

Going to make a barrel composter tonight. Anyone have any tips or things to avoid before I dive in?


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## Meerkat

Neec0 said:


> Going to make a barrel composter tonight. Anyone have any tips or things to avoid before I dive in?


Good idea,you turn that with your feet.Just roll it over a few times a week and its done.

Secure the lid first.


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## PackerBacker

Neec0 said:


> New garden layout. Added lettuce and strawberries. North is the bottom of the pic. Moved the taller plants so they are on the north side... Anyone see an issue with this layout?


If you planted nothing but the brandywine tomatoes in all of both beds it'd still not be enough space. JMO.

What's number 4?

Do you plan on any multi cropping? Bunching onions and raddish will be out before 'maters even go in. Or are you planning other crops for later?


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## farmers

Thanks for the pictures. I have trouble with orange and lemon trees in my greenhouse, they don't get enough light in Jan. Feb. You just solved my problem. Thankyou


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## vegaswhale

Hey guys I have a quick question. Just started my garden a few weeks back. I used an area where I previously cleaned my pool filter. I live in SFLA so I cleaned it about every week to two weeks there. Anyone see an issue with planting there? It is not the exact area but is about 3-5 feet away. Thanks in advance for the responses


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## squshnut

ContinualHarvest said:


> Using all of the fancy grow lights and tillers might be a bit harder post SHTF. I start all of my seeds indoors, underneath my windows. The wife has learned to deal with it for a couple of weeks during the spring. Yes, it's less uniform but it does two things for me. One, the weakest plants don't make it. It's not worth putting time and energy into weak plants that won't produce as much. Two, it provides plants an opportunity to harden off albeit at a much much easier rate than growing them outside. But it gets them used to changing temperatures so they dont' shock as much when i start to take the flats outside for a couple hours each day.


A cold frame would be a good idea to have. I raised my cool weather crops in one this year made from scrap wood and an old glass shower door.
my cabbage and broccoli were a little smaller than usual but they were not leggy at all.


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## Wellrounded

squshnut said:


> A cold frame would be a good idea to have. I raised my cool weather crops in one this year made from scrap wood and an old glass shower door.
> my cabbage and broccoli were a little smaller than usual but they were not leggy at all.


I use cold frames too. 
If you want some heat you can build a manure/compost pile under the cold frame, then a good layer of dirt/soil then your seedlings in trays etc. Create airflow through the compost pile with drainage pipe or other pipe with holes/slots cut into it, lay these horizontally through the compost as you build it. It'll heat up in one or two days, let it cool slightly and the plant away. If it cools too early build another one and shift everything over. 
You can also use compost to heat water to pipe through your grow beds... 
I've done both, like the compost pile under the cold frame most as it does two jobs in one. If I make the bed out of horse manure and straw I let it settle down (don't turn it) and then use as a mushroom bed.


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## Neec0

Meerkat said:


> Good idea,you turn that with your feet.Just roll it over a few times a week and its done.
> 
> Secure the lid first.


I built a stand for the bin, and unfortunately, the bin I got for free, held Industrial Degreaser/Soap, so I will have to see if it can be cleaned well enough for my hot compost or if I need to find a "food grade" barrel.  Locally they run $50.












PackerBacker said:


> If you planted nothing but the brandywine tomatoes in all of both beds it'd still not be enough space. JMO.
> 
> What's number 4?
> 
> Do you plan on any multi cropping? Bunching onions and raddish will be out before 'maters even go in. Or are you planning other crops for later?


I respect your opinion, and traditional gardening has its roots for 1000's of years. I just don't have the space for a 14,000sqft garden on my 1/3 of an acre plot. So I am going to try a mix of SFG and intensive gardening.

Which number 4 are you referring too? There are Basil, Strawberries and Crisp lettuce.

You also asked if I was going to rotate crops or multi-crop, and yes, we plan on multicropping the onions and what not.

To be honest, like I said in the beginning of this, this is my first go around. I need to learn by experimentation, so we will see what works for my family and my yard.


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## PackerBacker

Neec0 said:


> I respect your opinion, and traditional gardening has its roots for 1000's of years. I just don't have the space for a 14,000sqft garden on my 1/3 of an acre plot. So I am going to try a mix of SFG and intensive gardening.


My brandywine toms were aboot 10' tall and 3-4' around. The trunk was 2" across.

I think if you are not going to do it the way it's been done for thousands of years then you don't want thousand year old tomato varieties. I can't fathom how a brandywine will be happy with one square foot and I can't see how you will be happy with the results. I would think a newer, smaller, determinate variety would be better suited here. Again JMO as I don't have direct SFG garden experience.

I wouldn't want strawberries in my "garden". If you have to plant them in the bed I would divide them off aboot 2' of the end to keep them from spreading into the rest of the area and crops.


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## Neec0

PackerBacker said:


> My brandywine toms were aboot 10' tall and 3-4' around. The trunk was 2" across.
> 
> I think if you are not going to do it the way it's been done for thousands of years then you don't want thousand year old tomato varieties. I can't fathom how a brandywine will be happy with one square foot and I can't see how you will be happy with the results. I would think a newer, smaller, determinate variety would be better suited here. Again JMO as I don't have direct SFG garden experience.
> 
> I wouldn't want strawberries in my "garden". If you have to plant them in the bed I would divide them off aboot 2' of the end to keep them from spreading into the rest of the area and crops.


Maybe I have the wrong variety of Tomato for what I am trying to do. We will certainly find out though.

All these tips and pointers are why I am putting it out on the web for all to criticize and judge. Thanks for your help in understanding my mistakes.


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## SouthCentralUS

PB comes across as a hardass but PB is just trying to help a new comer. Just take the advice and run with it.


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## Beekeeper

My father grew and sold plants for many years in our basement. He used some grow lights ,but said he found regular bulbs worked as well for him. I think I would not use soft light. He hung his lights on chains to adjust them. Kept light just above plants. Lights were set on a timer. He moved them outdoors to his cold frames as soon as temps were well above freezing, but not without hardening first. Most tomatoes and peppers do not like cold.


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## Neec0

A little update:

Week 3 has been decent to our little seedlings. We have seen all of our peppers sprout, our maters get their real leaves, a successful turning and reheating of our hot compost pile, and a tiresome 4 hour tilling of my 12x20 garden/dog run. I was able to till down 10" into the original soil this time before I hit super hard clay. I am positive that soil hasn't seen the light of day in YEARS, as we found some interesting things in it!

Anyway, a few pics. Hopefully everyone agrees that the plants are looking healthy! They have certainly grown in the last week, and I think it may be time to introduce some sort of fertilization. I just don't know what to feed them.

Group 1 of the maters:









Group 2 of the maters:









The peppers (and no they are not yellow, that must be the lighting, they are a nice green)









In process of tilling (you can kinda see the depth here as well)









The finished plot:









The Lovely 2 blade tiller, a pain, but better than doing it all by hand!


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## stayingthegame

could I put my squash in tomato cages. I planted yellow, zucchini and white scallop.


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