# What to do with friends and relatives?



## Canadian

My wife and I have been gathering a forty day supply of good to survive any possible disaster. We have survived the 2003 blackout and a major snowstorm in 1999. Our relatives had their part of town blown up when a fuel refinery exploded in 2008. 

In spite of all members of the family having lived though or had close calls with disasters they refuse to prepare. When we mentioned our survival horde they thought we were crazy. When we mentioned we would be adding guns and thousands of rounds of ammunition to our horde they were horrified. 

These are people who eat out for every meal, can't cook, can't fix anything, live on credit cards and debit cards, and are unprepared for simple situations in daily life. 

I know for a fact that if there is a food shortage or rioting THEY WILL show up at our door asking to come in.

We only have enough food and supplies for two people. We built in a cushion so we could stretch it to four as our house can sleep four in relative comfort. However, if they all showed up the food would be gone in a matter of days. 

I don't get along with many of them and they don't even like each other most of the time. Being barricaded in my own home with these people for weeks might be more than I can stand. 

I've told them I'm willing to build a second "horde" at one of their houses if everyone in the family is willing to pay for a part of the supplies. Nobody wanted to chip in.

What do I do when they show up pounding on the door?


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## jebrown

People say that there is no way that they could turn some one away in the event of a disaster or whatever.
If theser same people showed up at your door and wanted to be ivited for dinner every day day in or day out you would turn them away after a short time. If they came to your house and walked in and took your food you would call the police and have them arrested for stealing.
People who will show up uninvited or unprepared are doing the same thing. Stealing from you. 
Every one has been advised to prepare it is covered to one extent or another in the media for amy years. If they refuse to accept responsibilty for their own actions why should you do it for them. This is the reson so many don't prepare. They are so use to someone else providing for them. They eat out and can't cook, someone else is taking care of them. Paying for the meal doesn't change the fact that they are not self-sufficient. They are followers and not leaders they constantly have some one else to look after them for what ever reason.
I have provisions for my family and that is all. I have made it plain to the four others in my family that no one else under any circumstances are welcome.
We have two grandsons that live out of town ages four years and 5 years they would be welcome but not thier mother or stepfather. They have been advised but don't care to plan, the boys don't have a choice.
I will not risk denying my family to provide for idiots too stupid to prepare. I will turn them away without any guilt at all. I know this may sound harsh to some of you but think of how you would feel sitting there watching your family doing without do to lazy individuals who just want to mooch.
I have offered to include others but no one wants to contribute any money to by supplies or provide food and supplies.


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## JeepHammer

It's family, you CAN NOT turn them away!

I took in my neighbors and people from the neighborhood I didn't even know during the floods this spring...

Either we ALL make it, or it's not worth living with myself if we don't...


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## Canadian

It's hard to imagine the moment of actually telling them they are not welcome. I think the hardest part of survival has nothing to do with getting prepared. It has to do with the emotional issues that come up. Thanks for your opinion.


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## Canadian

Jeep - That's exactly what my wife would say. That's what makes this so difficult. I'm pretty well prepared in terms of supplies. It's the complicated social bits that make things difficult. I'd love to help everyone but if I fed all the families in my complex I'd be out of food in one evening. Then my wife and I will be left with empty stomachs and a pile of equipment and ammunition. I wonder how long it would take before we went pounding on doors looking for food.


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## AgentFlounder

For me the cost of turning people away is too high. There's no chance in the world we'd turn away our own family-- regardless of how prepared they are. I'd want to help as many as I could while being reasonable and having enough for our own basic needs.


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## Canadian

Flounder - Thanks for your take on things. By the way you taste great cooked in butter.


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## dilligaf

having run a way station for folks for several years and not turning any one away in those years we have had to change ur policies about people coming and staying. In order for them to come for anything over a three days stay , one must bring their food and supplies enough to take care of them and who ever else they bring along. If it looks like it is a long term thing they must bring atleast 6 months worth of supplies. 

Our reasoning is ... we grow about 90% of our own food supplies. We have enough growing for ourselves and one or two others at all times. We have gardens enough to raise what we eat, store and sell or barter away for money. By bringing extras to the table it means our resources are depleted. It will take us about 6 months in order to beging harvesting enough products in order to sustain how ever many extra mouths that are here. We can not afford this in this type of economy. 

Few people will put the effort that you put into gardens/ animals etc if they are not theres. Mothers with small children attached to there hips are not going to pull the weight of themself and the kiddies. If a man is with him this all falls upon the man. More often than not it still is not enough to sustain that extra family. Even simple things such as milk. We raise just enough goats for ourselves and our needs with the goats . An entire extra family changes that entirely. Are you willing to take that on? We have chickens that prduce about what we eat in eggs . An entire extra family changes those needs and we cant pull an extra five chickens out of a magic hat over night. This is for all animals produce etc. 

Then think about where you are going to stick these entire families. Do you have the facilities to ramp up everything you will need to ramp up... Think bout canning supplies, food storage, garden space, extra barn and critter space. Do you have a means to put these folks up in a warm place or is a whole new domicilie going to need to be built.

It sounds harsh but folks need to look at things realistically here. Is sounds great to think that we can take everyone in unconditionally(we have done it) but the truth is in order to do this, more often than not it is you and yours that will be the ones having to sacrifice and give up what you have worked for in the end to have it all come collapsing down around you because you didnt have the infrastructure and the means to sustain he people you took in for long term.


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## AgentFlounder

Canadian said:


> Flounder - Thanks for your take on things. By the way you taste great cooked in butter.


LOL yummy! 

Michael


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## Canadian

dilligaf - We live in one of the largest cities in North America in the downtown area. We have no way of growing any food. Everything has to be stored and we have very limited storage space. 

We also have very little room to fit people in. If the whole family showed up we'd literally be on top of each other. It must be stressful when people are pushing your supply situation to the breaking point.

Thanks for your input.


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## dilligaf

have you posed this exact thing to your wife then lol... As i said it is a luvly idea to think we can take everyone in need in but reality has to be the key thing here.. and for many looking at things realistically is difficult when it comes to family. But it could very well mean your own survival or not in a bad situation... 

If folks are knocking on your door then one must assume they are having major finanical issues. Are you in the financial position to absorb all the costs that would be associated with taking extras in long term? 

Of course we come from the self sufficiency mind set. Eating all meals out and not cooking or growing our own food is totally foreign to us and for these same reasons we dont have much contact with most of our families. 

One lil suggestion to ya though ... increase that amount of food supply you have set back... 40 days isnt much ... Even if its just beans n rice n simple foods , i really suggest it if you can ...


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## endurance

Personally, I consider a six month to one year supply minimal, but obviously you're already better off than 90% of Americans when it comes to preps. While I've felt well prepared for myself and my GF for a while now, lately I've been stashing more food just for the neighbors. While I know I can't look after all their food needs, I would love to be able to contribute with soups or stews to help them get by. If you belong to Costco, 25# of rice is $10-11 right now. That's roughly 40k calories for the cost of a couple lattes. While I think people have a responsibility to look after themselves, if they can't or won't, you have to do the best you can. We are our brother's keeper. Canned beef is less than $3.50 a pound and is great for adding some heartiness to stews if you can't provide local wild game. Dried mashed potatoes are good by themselves, but they can also be used to thicken a stew and add calories.

I'd say store the extra food at your place, but insist on cooking at one of their places, even if it's a logistical headache. Offer to bring over dinner every night in exchange for something that you might need, like gas, batteries, blankets, or some labor-intensive task. Otherwise, you're setting yourself up to get taken advantage of in the future even more.


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## Canadian

The amount stored has more to do with lack of space than anything else. Many people in our city live in 300 - 400 sq ft condos. We're lucky to have about 800 sq ft. Once you put furniture in there it's pretty full. 

We also live literally across the street from a supermarket. If things start to get bad we can walk across the street and bump up our food supply and store the food all over the house. For now we'd like the house to look like a house. We've kept our food choices simple yet tasty.

It seems like most people who post here live in the country and have space, land, barns, sheds, cellars, etc. They also seem to live fairly far away from family and other people in general. I might be facing "big city issues" when it comes to being prepared. 

Thanks for your input. Yeah the wife and I talk about all kinds of things these days. Things we'd thought we would never talk about. It's all about the economy.


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## Canadian

endurance - I recently got a membership at COSTCO so I could buy and store things by the case. We have lots of tools, lights, batteries and equipment and we'll soon have plenty of guns and ammo. Food however takes up a lot of space. I never though about how much food an average person consumes in a day. We filled up an entire shelving unit with food. "Wow that's only a month?" It was a shock to the system. People consume a lot of food.


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## endurance

Canadian said:


> People consume a lot of food.


Yep, we're only slightly better than my GF's hayburner horses. I figure a year's worth of food takes up around 40sq.ft. from floor to ceiling and that's without getting fancy. With your small square footage, I understand the constraints. My only advice would be to consider a cache at either a climate controlled storage locker or buried somewhere out in the sticks, but within biking distance (I know boston is one of the least bike-friendly cities in the US now, but if things get really bad, folks won't be able to buy gas, so there will be a lot fewer cars on the road).

I'd temper your guns and ammo collection with the number of firefights you think you can win if you're really lucky. The best gunfight is the one you avoid entirely.


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## Magus

Canadian said:


> My wife and I have been gathering a forty day supply of good to survive any possible disaster. We have survived the 2003 blackout and a major snowstorm in 1999. Our relatives had their part of town blown up when a fuel refinery exploded in 2008.
> 
> In spite of all members of the family having lived though or had close calls with disasters they refuse to prepare. When we mentioned our survival horde they thought we were crazy. When we mentioned we would be adding guns and thousands of rounds of ammunition to our horde they were horrified.
> 
> These are people who eat out for every meal, can't cook, can't fix anything, live on credit cards and debit cards, and are unprepared for simple situations in daily life.
> 
> I know for a fact that if there is a food shortage or rioting THEY WILL show up at our door asking to come in.
> 
> We only have enough food and supplies for two people. We built in a cushion so we could stretch it to four as our house can sleep four in relative comfort. However, if they all showed up the food would be gone in a matter of days.
> 
> I don't get along with many of them and they don't even like each other most of the time. Being barricaded in my own home with these people for weeks might be more than I can stand.
> 
> I've told them I'm willing to build a second "horde" at one of their houses if everyone in the family is willing to pay for a part of the supplies. Nobody wanted to chip in.
> 
> What do I do when they show up pounding on the door?


I have 4 relatives I care about,the rest can talk to the shotgun.


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## charleybundrum

Hmm...

Probably let them in for the most part I reckon. Situations can very, duration, severity, available additional support etc.. I like to think of ways to keep them busy while contributing. I would like to hear other folks ideas on this. 

Operating the manual grain mill
cleaning
counting and inspecting ammo
telling/reading stories
tending the garden
keeping watch
assigning them to help neighbors
Operating the bicycle powered generator
counting and rolling pennies

Charley


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## Canadian

endurnace - The gun thing was a big discussion with my wife. At first she was against it. Then as we started to stockpile supplies and it started to add up she started to change her mind. We live in a town home in a gated community. The other people in the community are packed in all around us. If there's a shortage of anything people will start to notice.

They might notice that our place is always lit, always warm, always has the smell of food coming from it at meal times. We're pretty sure people will come by at first and ask for things like food, batteries, medical supplies, clean drinking water, fuel. After a while if things get real bad they might not ask. 

I never fired a gun until a few months ago. I took my wife and she gave it a try. She's fine shooting at paper but she's convinced that she could never shoot a person. I'm not sure I could do it even if someone was trying to break my door down. 

I live next door to these people. My wife and I both realize that the most likely person to break in to loot us isn't some faceless criminal - it will be someone who lives across the street from us. Not a bad person but someone who has run out of supplies first. They will probably have a family to feed. They don't hate us they just want to eat. A week on an empty stomach can drive people crazy. 

We'd rather not have any guns. We never even fired one until a few months ago. However, we can't see any other way around it. We look at the L.A. riots, New Orleans, the New York City blackout and see that the police can't protect you. Those people looted the stores and homes in their own area. How else can we protect ourselves? 

We figured 40 days of food requires 40 days of ammunition to protect it and some guns to shoot with. We don't want to hurt anyone. With the way the economy is going we know we have to be prepared. The vast majority of people in our city have no experience with guns. With any luck we'll be the only people in our area who have any.


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## Canadian

charley - Good suggestions. However my situation is a little different. 

Grain mill? We opted to go with a large supply or rice and pasta instead. Cleaning? It's a small place so that would take about an hour. 

Counting and inspecting ammo? Due to gun laws around here it has to be locked in a safe in a container. It'll be pre counted and sit in the safe until it is needed. 

Telling stories? Our family members only have one set of stories that they tell over and over again. "Did I tell you about the time when..." Yes grandpa only nine million times! Tend the garden? No garden or lawn to speak of. 

Keeping watch. That's one that applies. 

Helping the neighbors is a tough one. In my part of the city the population is about 85% Korean / Other Asian 10% Iranian 4% white and 1% other. Since my family only speak english we can't communicate with the neighbors. I've been here for years and I only get as far as hello. 

Bike generator! Awesome!

Pennies - How about playing solitaire until dawn with a deck of fifty one.

It's amazing how much of our time is dedicated to electronics. I'm sure my extended family would go bonkers without their ipod, tv, computer, blackberry, cell phone, ps3 etc. 

I'm tired of standing watch... "Well there's always the power bike..."

Thanks Charley - If I we're holed up at your place I bet we'd have an awesome game of poker.

Peace!


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## Canadian

magus - Damn you must dislike your in-laws. Mine are pretty bad. I might tell them to talk "to the hand." The shotgun however would be going a bit far for me.


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## endurance

I understand, I never said don't own a gun or buy ammo, I just said temper it. I just can't imagine a world where you could shoot thousands of rounds in self-defense without having the authorities stopping by to have a looksee. Besides, once you get 30-40 bodies piled up around the front door, I'm sure the stench will have you thinking about finding somewhere else to hide out.


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## JeepHammer

Canadian said:


> Jeep - That's exactly what my wife would say. That's what makes this so difficult. I'm pretty well prepared in terms of supplies. It's the complicated social bits that make things difficult. I'd love to help everyone but if I fed all the families in my complex I'd be out of food in one evening. Then my wife and I will be left with empty stomachs and a pile of equipment and ammunition. I wonder how long it would take before we went pounding on doors looking for food.


*NOT DIFFICULT!*
*Either we ALL make it, or none of us does!*

Luckily, My family are all farmers, mechanics, carpenters, machinists, ect. so they are pretty handy and NOT LAZY.
(I'm the only 'Lazy' one, since most of what I do is CNC machining and designing they think I don't 'DO' anything!)

During the flood this year, we went to houses of the people staying with us, and we used their freezer food and perishables to help feed the 'Cast & Crew' that were here.
The flooded 'Refugees' got a chance to salvage pictures, documents, ect. and while there, we would ask for any food donations they could spare. Most gave everything perishable, and most of the older folks gave canned goods, ect.

No sense it in rotting in fridge or freezer!
-------------

Funny how people don't want to give up things to a community effort,
Even though you took them in and fed/housed them,
And even when they know it's going to spoil and be worthless to no one... 
I don't get it, but I've seen it more than once.

Actually, the older, retired people living on fixed incomes with very little to spare were the most generous!
AND,
The younger people with fancy cars they wanted us to save and fancy new 'McMansion' houses were the most stingy...

Funny how things work out that way!


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## jebrown

I got news for you JeepHammer they may be family but I will turn them away. I have no problem in saying no. 
If they don't want to help in preparing then they are not going to be allowed.
No I am not my brothers keeper. No one keeps me and I won't bear the burden of taking away from my family to support people who won't prepare.
If yhou allow people to stay with you get it clear ahead of time as to what is expected of them. Otherwise they will show up and demand to be couch potatos. Expecting you to cook for them and clean up after them. You may beleieve that they will be willing to earn thier keep but most people won't. I have heard dozens of people compalinig about this as a disaterspecialist.


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## NaeKid

Even when I go out to visit my family - I bring food and other such goodies (8hr drive away from here). I bring snack-food, fruit, vegies, "travel-food", drinks (water, juice, pop, beer, wine, etc) that would be good enough for ourselves plus enough to share for the whole planned visit time frame.

My dad and step-mom are both retired - I don't want to eat them outta house-n-home. It just wouldn't be right. My mom still works and I still bring goodies to share while visiting. In a situation where I have to leave my tiny house (850 sq/f) and go away - I will take everything that is important to survival. My parents would accept us - but - we would not be able to live under the same roof.

That is where self sufficiency comes into play. The camper and supplies would be setup to live in - just have a new base-of-operations away from Calgary.

Now - with that said - I would not expect family to come to me in case of trouble. The majority of my family lives in smaller towns that would not have many of the SHTF social problems. The worst that might happen is a fire-storm (quite normal in my home-area) and in that situation, I would receive my family with open arms.

My extended family (cousins, aunts, uncles, etc) would all have to fend for themselves - immediate family would be the ones that I would help.

If I was you, I would discuss with the missus what kind of family would be welcome before someone shows up on your doorstep with their hands out. I would also discuss who you would goto in case of troubles that you could not stay at home and protect your homestead. Make sure that the place that you would plan to goto will also accept you ...


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## Canadian

Jeep - It's nice that you helped out. However, it seems that I have a different situation from you. We'll probably never have a flood out here. 

Most people in our area do not have "hands on" jobs. Most of them work in the surrounding office towers on the computer all day. With little 450 sq ft condos people don't have room for a chest freezer or freezer food. 

We're also dealing with an extremely high population density. One condo tower could have several thousand people living in it. There's no way to hunt or forage for food and the only food sources in a 10 km radius are two supermarkets. 

I'm glad the seniors in your area were generous with food. In my area the majority of seniors rely on supplemental income from family or food banks in order to survive in their retirement.

The most likely disaster I face is a food shortage or a fuel shortage that leads to a food shortage. 

BTW none of our food ever spoils. We donate it to the food bank if the expiry date gets close. I'm no stranger to helping the community. I work for a drug addiction clinic and by the end of the year I will have gotten almost 100 people off of heroin. 

I'm just trying to look at the situation in a practical instead of idealistic manner. I'd like it if everyone could make it.


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## JeepHammer

WOW!
I've had you guys wrong all along!

I was suffering under the delusion you all were fairly well educate, well balanced, family type people.

Now I just feel sorry for you all if you weren't raised with enough love, compassion, work ethic and abilities to take care of yourselves and your families.

Now wonder you are all paranoid!
I owe you all apologies, I didn't know society failed you all this badly.
-----------------------

Everyone will be welcome at my house.
You will be expected to pull your weight,
Do as you are told so the chores get done,
and you will be expected to show consdieration to the others, 
But you would be welcome.


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## Canadian

jebrown - I get your point. I'd like to be able to turn people away without worry. The problem is that emotions get in the way. What do you do when they start to cry and beg? They say they have nowhere else to go? Or they show up injured and scared? I can't fit much more food in my place. 

This problem is the one that I can't really prepare for. Getting everyone's input is helping though. I talked with my wife last night and showed her the poll results. She said she wants to see what more people have to say.


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## Backwoods

Well...............

Over and above everything my imediate family comes first over everything else. Wife and kids first. The only other I would allow in would be my MIL since she would not be able to care for herself in a SHTF situation. I have no living parents and my FIL has passed also. To be quite honest no one else in either of our familys would be allowed into our AO. To be blunt, they are leeches and have proven they can't be trusted or relied on for ANYTHING when times are easy and I don't intend to take the chance on them in any crisis. I don't trust any of them enough to allow them access to to my property or anything on it. As for friends and teammates that would not be a problem. All of our close friends and the members of my team are life long preppers and are well ready and supplied and if nessessary I would take any or all of them into my home as I trust them with my life as well as my property.

Strangers.............After making sure they were under watch I would help them as best as I could. Render first aid if needed, see that they were not in any imeditate danger etc.......Then they would be told politely to move on. We don't have the facilities to support refugees. If I thought it was safe I might give them some food,water or first aid supplies (I have a bunch of small kits for bartering) but nothing else and certainly no weapons or ammunition.

I know it sounds cold hearted but if you want to make it through any type of major "situation" you had better harden yourself to some of the things you are going to see.


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## Canadian

Backwoods - You don't sound cold hearted at all. You just have your head screwed on straight. You have the kind of objective attitude that I wish more people in life had. 

It must be nice to have people on your team. Due to the language barrier in our area (we only speak english) most people here speak arabic, farsi, korean, chinese, vietnamese etc. we have no team mates. 

In fact in this city people get very good at ignoring other people. It isn't unusual to live in a building with a thousand people and not know any of them. 

I do miss my old area downtown where I grew up in a house with a community around me. I'd live there today if I had the 1,250,000.00 needed to buy a home there. 

I think your team mates are a blessing.


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## Canadian

Naekid - I'd love to have a trailer. The problem is that a parking spot in our area costs about $20,000.00 and we're lucky. Spaces a few KM south go for about $30,000.00 a pop. We only have a single spot so the trailer is out for now.

I also think fleeing to another part of the city might be real dangerous. I imagine there would be a lot of abandoned or smashed cars blocking the streets. Also a lot of big crowds roaming the streets.

Has anyone ever had to travel through a city during a riot or disaster? I'd like to know what to expect.


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## Canadian

Jeep - I think a lot of people here are pretty well balanced. I think a lot of them try to take care of themselves and their family to the best of their ability. Some people have more weight to pull than others. We all know people who got an easy start in life. We know others who started way behind the starting line. 

I don't think it's fair to pass judgement on everyone without knowing their story. Besides this place is all about survival. Which is what many people do on a daily basis in ordinary situations. They have to stretch a dollar to make ends meet, work two or more jobs, or deal with small children or disabled relatives. 

I can't be all that mad at the "everyday survivors" who don't manage to put enough away for the "big one" whatever that may be. It's a tough world for a lot of people and we're all unique. Nobody has exactly the same location, lifestyle, background, skills, and family as you. What works for you may not work for everyone. 

If everyone is welcome at your place that's fine. "Everyone" can vary depending on where you live. In my case "everyone" would be thousands of people with no survival skills. In the far north it could be a dozen people with great survival skills. Your "everyone" and your family are not the same as mine. 

We might all be welcome at your place but saying "you feel sorry for us" sends a different message. Not all that friendly. I wouldn't put that on a housewarming invitation. "Come on over I feel sorry for you." Not a great invite.

You also say that we would be expected to show "consideration towards others." It would be nice if you showed a little more consideration to the people posting on this forum. We’re not all as horrible as you think.

At your place people have to "do as you are told." That sounds a little less like teamwork and a little more bossing people around. I’d rather be asked to do something that told to do something. Either way I’d get it done. One way is more polite and humane. You could run out of food but you never have to run out of manners or compassion. 

If EVERYONE is welcome at your house does that include people who do not do as they are told? Do not pull their weight? Do not show consideration to others? What would you do if people refused to help out? What if they got tired of being told what to do? Would you force them out? Or is EVERYONE truly welcome at your place no matter what?

I'd like to know.


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## pmabma

Thank goodness what few neighbors we have stockpile, and my children bring things each month to help with our pile, we have a meeting place here and my brother and sister stock for there familys,We are a stocking family.No strangers would be weclome.I won,t take from my granbabies{youngest being 7months and oldest being 12 and 4 in between that} for someone who thinks I,m nut for doing this, I hate it for them.They better wake up.And they got to get by the neighbors down the road, don,t see that happening.


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## Canadian

pmabma - It's great that you've made stocking up your place a family activity. I'd have a very hard time letting strangers into my home. Family and friends are one thing but people who I don't know at all would be a tough one. I don't even let the pizza guy or door to door salespeople set even one foot inside my door. I always talk to strangers who show up through the door while it is locked. We still have home invasion robberies in our area. 

Having little ones around makes your resources even more precious. If you give all your stuff away you can fend for yourself. But the little ones can't. They have to rely on you. 

All I can say is God Bless and I hope your family never has to see hard times.


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## northernontario

Canadian.... In case I missed it in one of your postings, I'm pretty darn sure you're in downtown Toronto. So I know that "getting out" during a riot/emergency isn't an option. I know you won't be able to "ride a bike" to the country without it being several days of riding. And I know you pay out the nose for a parking spot!

It sounds like you're doing the best you can do. Sometimes the limiting factor is simply the scenerio we place ourselves in. In your case, you're in the downtown of a major city center. Space is at a premium, there isn't a garage or shed "out back" with tools or the latest project you're tinkering with. 

It sucks to have to worry about how your extended family is going to help themselves during a time of crisis. If the power is out for more than a few hours, they have no plans for heating/water/etc. ATM's and credit cards don't work when the power is out. (We learned that during the big power outage a few years back). 

I know your general area pretty well. I have family in Scarborough, in-laws in cambridge and markham. During a crisis there isn't much you can do but wait it out, take care of yourself, and help out where you can. Don't feel obligated to help those who couldn't help themselves. 

I live in Sudbury... and I dislike living right in the city. I grew up in the country, my parents still live in the country, and I much prefer having space. When the opportunity comes, My wife and I will be buying a place out of town with some land. Design our living area to be self-sustaining if need-be. Yes, we'll still be "on the grid"... but I plan on implementing systems to backup our on-grid dependancies...

-wood stove
-wind/solar to charge a battery bank
-secondary water pump to keep the water flowing
-gardens

Do I expect unprepared family to drop by... nope, cause we're about 5 hours from any family up here. Do I expect that, during a crisis/disaster/emergency, that I will help my neighbours as best I can; you bet. But I will still keep my top priority my family. Guns/ammo stay locked up (not that either of us have guns right now), supplies are split into seperate areas to make it look like less of a "stash". If you invite someone into your house and they see huge volumes of supplies, they may suddenly get greedy.

How does this help your situation? Well... if you really want to help your family, you're gonna have to work in baby steps. Obviously they don't want to be a bunch of "paranoid kooks" who stockpile guns and ammo and food in their basement awaiting the end of the civilized world. You need to start by breaking them of their current habits...

-no more excessive credit card debt. During our current economic situation, this is the worst time to have credit card debt. 
-encourage them to save for their retirement, and save for a "rainy day". 
-encourage them to change their lifestyle, eat at home, learn a new skill. 
-Invite a couple of them to go shooting with you when you practice. 
-inspire them to learn about "alternatives" to the normal lifestyle that most people have come to accept... get them a book on alternative energy sources, how to grow a garden, how to build a straw bale house.
-suggest to your extended family an "emergency plan"... make it a fun thing... if everyone is gathered for christmas, bring it up in the conversation. "So, if we had another big power outage that lasted a couple days, what would you guys do? Where would you plan on going?" 

Just some thoughts from a young married guy who lives in the "area".


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## Canadian

dthompsett - Nice to get a take from another urban survivalist. You got me. I'm in Toronto. The extended family is only a fifteen minute drive away.

I've been talking with my brother who has always been anti-gun and he's ready to go with me to the gun range. That took a lot of convincing. Things are changing a bit. 

After the initial shock wore off my family calmed down a lot. They admit they are just as weird as me but in other ways. They would probably been less shocked and disgusted if I told them I was any of the following: gay, a satanist, wife beater, had AIDS, bankrupt, or a convicted felon, instead of telling them I applied for my gun permits.

My side of the family is pretty tough and resourceful - if unprepared. My wife's family on the other hand is my worry. The older relatives survived the holocaust and many of them served during world war two. When my father in law was a child his family had to crash their car through a nazi road block while they got sprayed with machine guns when escaping from Czech. 

They lived to tell the tale but for some odd reason they are not interested in preparing. Of all people I think they would understand the most. My grandfather lived in a POW camp for many years and my mom was born in that camp. My grandfather was prepared for everything. My mom is rarely prepared for anything. 

I'm working on changing them but at their age new tricks are not easily absorbed. They refuse to learn a lot of new things. Won't touch a computer, eat new foods, go new places. You know how it can be. I still keep trying.

Good luck with your land purchase. I have to drive at least three hours to find any land to buy and it's always a big lot for developers "build a townhome complex here only 12 million dollars for this field." 

I'd rather have space too. I hope you find your space soon! With any luck things are less expensive out there. 

I spent today in a small town due to a work related trip. It's a whole other world compared to here. I can see why you like being out of the city. I don't think we're meant to live in cement ice cube trays. 

Peace!


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## dunappy

My family is all good to come and stay. 
Mom is good for knitting and sewing cooking and canning and gardening.
Older sister is great at canning and helping in the garden.
Younger sister and hubby are hunters and can bring home the dinner.

My family is always welcome.


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## NaeKid

Canadian said:


> Naekid - I'd love to have a trailer. The problem is that a parking spot in our area costs about $20,000.00 and we're lucky. Spaces a few KM south go for about $30,000.00 a pop. We only have a single spot so the trailer is out for now.


I have an Evolution E1 trailer setup for off-roading, and my "tow-rig" is a modified Jeep LJ (Long Jeep) Wrangler. It was modified with the express plan of light-duty off-roading and trailer-towing.

If a trailer interests you, you might want to look at "long term" trailer storage places. Around here a "cheap" place is around $30 / month with gated (non-patrolled) lots to fully secured / patrolled trailer-storage lots for $100+ / month.

I drove my Jeep across Canada towing a tent-trailer and visited as many back-roads as possible. Believe it or not, I probably drove right past your place down the 401 on my way from PEI / NewBrunswick / Montreal ... towards Niagara. I found some amazing areas just outside the city-limits of Toronto with single-lane dirt / gravel roads barely wide enough to tow my trailer through on my way south. Lots of farms and acreages - a few for sale. Those areas might be sufficient for you to live at and still work in Toronto.


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## CVORNurse

Canadian said:


> Naekid - I'd love to have a trailer. The problem is that a parking spot in our area costs about $20,000.00 and we're lucky. Spaces a few KM south go for about $30,000.00 a pop. We only have a single spot so the trailer is out for now.


Wow, Canadian. I read this and my mouth just dropped open. I realize the cost of living where I live is a lot cheaper than lots of other places, but the idea of having to pay for a parking spot was so foreign to me.... I have already learned something new today and haven't had but one sip of coffee. Gonna be a good eventful and learning day today.

Now off to read the rest of the threads and make my homemade hot chocolate mix and chai tea mix that I am giving my coworkers for Christmas.


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## CVORNurse

I have given the thought of family lots of consideration. When I first started stocking up, I was just worried about DH, myself, and the 2 kids still at home. Then my village idiot StepDaughter, SIL, grandson moved a trailer in on our land. They are on SSD, food stamps, WIC. When they do get money, spend it on stupid things. She has often had to "borrow" food and repay me when they reload her foodstamp card. So I know that in a SHTF situation, I will be caring for them also as there is no way I can turn away my grandson. Then I decided that if I am going to make plans for them, I may as well make plans for the other kids. DS #1 is married with a beautiful little girl, DS#2 is in school right now.
So I am making short term plans for 4, with a long term goal of having supplies for 11. I probably could hold out right now for 6 weeks- 2 months, taking into account that I have 2 deer in the freezer.
I found a storage planner on Stan and Holly Deyo's site that I downloaded. You just input how many adults, kids, and pets you are planning for and their general ages. Then input how much of a supply you want, 2 weeks, 6 months, a year, etc. It will then calculate how much you need of something. You can also input how much you already have and it will keep track for you. It will even tell you how many bars of soap, tubes of toothpaste, and how many 5ths of vodka. Whatever you want.

If my parent's should show up I will most certainly take them in. They all 3 know how to garden. Dad knows how to hunt and worked on AC systems before he retired, so is actually handier as a mechanic than my own DH is. He also has knowlege of raising and butchering rabbits. My mom and step mom both have worked in restaurants and know how to cook large quantities of food and make them tasty. Both of these ladies grew up in poor families and know how to stretch stuff, so they could take over the cooking for me if needed. My MIL is too disabled to be any physical help, but I would take her in just out of love for raising her son and letting me have him for my own. And the fact that she also has valuable information.
With this in mind, I also have a twin over full bunkbed in one of the girls rooms, and have a daybed used as a couch in my bed room. We could get them all in, just might not be comfy.

The rest of the family- don't know. Guess it would depend on the situation we were being faced with.


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## Canadian

dunappy - You must feel blessed to have such a great family. I wish I was in your situation. Just the idea of people sewing, cooking, and gardening together sounds relaxing and fun. 

Peace!


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## Canadian

CVOR - Here's a bit from a local real estate listing for a downtown condo: 1 Bedroom 500 sq feet, lake view, 1 parking space, Maint fee $500 a month, Price $408,900.

There are very few people in my complex that have a car that is even worth half the price of the space it is parked in. I could buy a nice new car if I sold my space. Then where would I put the car? Hmmm...

Here's one for a 25 acre property in Newmarket which is far north of toronto - but still well populated: 25 acre property approved for zoning $7.8 million.

That's about $312,000 per acre with no house on it. Plus the developers never want to sell just one acre. It's all parcel deals for millions of dollars.

Sounds like you made plans for everyone. Plus it sounds like they are mostly easy to get along with (except the food stampers) with the exception of a few people.

In the small town I was in yesterday they had "free parking." It was a bit of a shock. 

The cost of living in the city pushes a lot of people to their financial limit. 

I like hot chocolate too!

Peace.


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## JeepHammer

I see that as the 'Problem'...
People living on top of each other like ants or feed lot pigs without the organization the ants have.

I would say in the worst case, you don't 'HAVE' food.
You ARE FOOD.

Good luck, and good bye!


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## Canadian

Jeep - I don't have to worry. I'll be staying at your house. Everyone is invited. Including me. Right? So warm me up some food pal and make some room by the fire.


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## ke4sky

*Try Living closer to the Bullseye*



Canadian said:


> ...I also think fleeing to another part of the city might be real dangerous. I imagine there would be a lot of abandoned or smashed cars blocking the streets. Also a lot of big crowds roaming the streets....Has anyone ever had to travel through a city during a riot or disaster? I'd like to know what to expect.


I worked in Washington, DC during the riots of 1968. The National Guard was Federalized, issued ammunition and authorized to use deadly force to stop attempted arson and other felonies. (Arming Order 5, AO-5) Dusk to dawn curfew was enforced. Some references on civil disturbances are:

Foreign Military Studies Office Publications - Combat in Cities: The LA Riots and Operation Rio
Foreign Military Studies Office Book Reviews

During hurricane Agnes lower parts of the city flooded. I walked from my office near Scott Circle to the Pentagon in ankle deep water, being careful to avoid whirlpools near missing manhole covers, lest I get sucked in.

The night Flight 90 hit Memorial Bridge I walked from the office to the Pentagon again in a snowstorm which was the biggest one we'd had in years.

During a terrorist takeover of the building next door to my office in DC we holed up for 18 hours until we could get out.

I've worked doing debris cleanup after house fires, floods, tornadoes and hurricanes.

I've had to evacuate my home near the I-495 beltway when a gasoline tanker overturned and released gasoline into a storm sewer. We did it again when a tractor trailer load of explosives overturned a few years later.

I was close enough to the Pentagon on 9/11 that I felt the explosion when the plane hit and saw the smoke plume.

I live about 2 miles from the Home Depot store where an FBI analyst was killed by the beltway sniper. The gas station I normally fill up in draped camouflage netting and tarpaulins around the pumps in case he came back.

For the most part ordinary people are civilized and help each other and their neighbors. However, a minority of angry people think that society at large owes them a living. They blame others for their poor lot in life caused by a lack of self reliance, acceptance of personal responsibility and preparation. These are the individuals who cause problems for law enforcement and unarmed victims they prey upon. Return to first paragraph.

Anyone who lives in a large city should prepare for all hazards from a rock concert to a terrorist WMD or nuclear war.


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## Canadian

Ke4sky - Awesome links and great info. You've survived a great many things. It sounds like you had to walk rather than drive away from several of the disasters. It's nice to get first hand info from someone like yourself. 

I live only a 15 minute drive from what is regarded by many people to be the "most dangerous" area in my city. If there was a disaster I'm willing to bet the gangs would not stay put for long.

I live on the cross street that is part of the name of "that part of town." When I tell people my address they say "you live there?!?" And I say "no - same street just many KM's away from there. It's a very long street.


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## risabee

Definitely let them in, we have the room and there aren't that many of them. It has been discussed and they KNOW WHAT TO BRING WITH THEM.

My 40 year old and his family are too far away for me to worry about -- they have a ranch in GA. My 22 year old and her fella have a ranch in another country and they plan to go to ground there -- We'd join them but I'm not sure I want to end my life trying to learn Spanish! My 28 year old has a group that train on survival and have a route plan and a safe place picked out, we are on the route but they likely would only stop by and swap us for a few things.

If he and his stayed here we'd all put ourselves under his leadership as war chief. He has wonderful strategic and tactical skills.

The 25 year old lives nearby and is the only one really sure to show up and stay. He's a good farmer. Each of them has more to offer than otherwise, which is a blessing.

My mom & dad, and the inlaws, are in their 80s and 90s and could not travel under chaotic conditions anyway, what with the oxygen bottles and such. We make every phone call as if it might be the last. They have had good lives and are resigned, however things go.

So have we, come to think of it. All of y'all younger folks, when you get to be about 60 you start visualizing scenarios where _you _are not necessarily a survivor, but one who is in a position to make sacrifices for the _others_. And _that's_ good too.


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## Canadian

risabee - It's too bad I don't live closer to a lot of you folks. So many of you have great families to stay with. As far as your mom and pop go I wish them the best. They are lucky to get those phone calls and I bet they grin from ear to ear whenever you call. Thanks for letting me get to know your family a bit better.


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## risabee

Thank you, Mr. C., but I should think the U.S.'d be the last place I'd recommend you to head for!

Seriously, though, kindness to others will get you friends -- the ones who not only know where the bodies are buried, but helped you shovel. And friends will get us through times of no ammo better than ammo will get us through times of no friends -- most of the time. [grin]


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## JeepHammer

Canadian said:


> Jeep - I don't have to worry. I'll be staying at your house. Everyone is invited. Including me. Right? So warm me up some food pal and make some room by the fire.


No problem!
I bet even you could turn out an honest days work with the correct motivation!
(Hunger and my boot up your ass if you don't!)


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## Canadian

risabee - I like the way you said that! Is that an old saying or did you just make that up?


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## Washkeeton

Im not sure what I would do... I do know that my son helps lots and is welcome... My grand would always be welcome.. I have made provisions for my daughter also... She has her moments.. I realize that she is a student now and is working toward her degree (finally) but she doesnt follow directions well and doesnt work as a team member well. She argues with what ever I tell her. She thinks I am stupid for the provisions that I have done. 

She has a new boyfriend.. He is full of a lot of mouth but havent seen action so far from him... He supposedly makes good money in the summer but struggles in the winter time... Right now he is sucking off my daughter and my grand.. so his worth isnt high on my list. He does know that if anything happens my daughter and grand will be cared for but not him. 

Both of my brothers and their families are 5000 miles away and I really dont see them showing up any day soon... Both relish their lives in the center of the big cities that they live in.


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## Canadian

Getting that degree is usually a person's last shot at being a kid. Some people are not ready for work and they keep going back for more and more degrees. 

Once you're out of school things change forever. Once she gets that degree she'll have new challenges to face. I'm willing to bet you'll see at least a few changes once school is done for good.

The student world isn't the same as the working world. As for boyfriends they come and go. I spent a lot of time being the "rotten boyfriend" before I evolved into a decent husband. That took all the way from my teenage years to my late twenties to accomplish. I'm still a work in progress.

You both have time as a family. I wish you all the best. Time is a pretty good educator. Sometimes time is all we need. God Bless.


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## Ridgerunner

all of my family beside my wife and son live about 3000 miles away on the left coast. so I do not have to worrie about them comming over,but if they did they would be able to hold there own and not be a burden. My parents I would take care no matter what.

In our neighborhood whe have alot of friends and most are well prepard. Those that are not would have to learn Quickly, or be on there own.

My first prority is my Wife and Son and then my parents. beyond that no one else matters if things get to that point we will take care of ourselves.


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## jebrown

I am just curious, many of you say that you would take in the ones who refuse to prepare. Why would you deprive your family to help people who will not help them selves?
I am not talking about family whom can’t afford to prepare. I know some parents and other relatives who just don’t don’t have the money. That is different. I am talking about the ones who have the money but would rather spend it on things less important.
So you let people in, then what will they follow your rules or will the band together and appoint another leader even though it is your house and property. You could call the Police but how long before they can get to you. Will the help out or just be deadbeats. Some will be grateful as hell, others will whine about living conditions and what food is being served.
How will you deal with those that may bring drugs, alcohol or weapons. What do you do with the hothead who pulls a gun on someone because they can’t have their way.
Now you have been a good neighbor and helped out everyone, guess what your six month or one year of supplies runs out in just a few days.
How will you deal with people who raid the food cabinet because they are bored so they think they are hungry? What about the picky eaters who take only a few bites and throw the rest in the trash wile complaining about the types of food available instead of being grateful for what they have.
But I know my neighbors and they wouldn’t be that way . Go on believing that.
All of these incidents are not hypothetical. They are real life incidents that have happened at least once and most of them several times These are incidents not stories that have been related to m by disaster victims over the 22 years I was a disaster specialist with the Red Cross.


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## Ridgerunner

jebrown said:


> I am just curious, many of you say that you would take in the ones who refuse to prepare. Why would you deprive your family to help people who will not help them selves?
> .


Because we are Human.......... to a point.


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## Fn/Form

Short-term, I can put up with a lot of personal unhappiness short of theft, assault, refusal/inability to share resources and responsibilities.

Long-term, any good-hearted person willing to work and share is welcome to my group. 

All who fall short of that description, including family, are not welcome. They have made willful choices in their life, and THEY MAKE THE DECISION FOR ME. I'm not being heartless, selfish, inhuman... I'm continuing to survive by making the right choices for myself and other good people.


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## Canadian

Ridge - Yeah we're all human. I spent two days this week with a member of my wife's family. I had to drive with him to two small towns for business. He drives with one foot on the gas and the other on the brake. The car constantly lurches. He even does this on the highway. I'm sure he goes through brake pads monthly. One trip was 2 1/2 hours each way. By the time I got home I felt seasick and couldn't eat dinner. 

He's also very annoying and only has a job because his family provides him with one. I've been helping him (at the families request) to expand his business. Today I had to revise a P.R. piece for him four times before noon hit. Kept changing his mind about details that didn't matter. 

Could I stand living with this guy for a month? I don't know man... I'm human too.


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## Canadian

FN - I used to have a friend (who I no longer talk to) and she could never make a decision on anything. She would ask me what to do. I say "do option a." Then she'd argue against me. "Okay do option b." Again she would argue against me. She'd keep this up for months. Then the situation would fall apart and she would complain about it.

One day I said to her "if you don't make decisions then the world will make them for you." She didn't like that. Eventually her shenanigans we're too much to take. My wife is still friends with her. She's far more patient than me.


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## Canadian

jebrown - I grew up in the city but I grew up poor. I was always taught never to waste food. Sometimes there was no food. When I go out to dinner people are always shocked by how fast I eat. I've managed to slow it down a lot because it really upset people to watch. Even now I try to go slow but childhood habits are hard to break.

I get upset when I see someone take one bite out of something and then throw it out. Or throw out food that never even got cooked or opened. In a survival situation my relatives would do a lot of that. I don't know how I'd be able to take it. People who have never been poor don't have the same perspective on things.


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## Fn/Form

Bad family members you'd have to turn away are a double whammy. It's hard to say "no." in the first place, since they're family. Being the not-so-savory people they are, they feel all the more slighted as "they're family", and they tend to act out against you. "If I can't have it, no one can", "you need to be taught a lesson" or they use knowledge of your location, prep, etc. against you.


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## josh302

Imo food, friends and family are the last thing you should be worried about if shtf, If large areas are without power and supplies for more than a few days, foreign invaders will be the first threat. We are pretty much screwed, unless your house is RPG proof. We as society have placed ALL of our trust in government to keep us safe, do you really think they will work on keeping "you" safe. How long do think it will take when/if shtf, before someone is "liberating" us and "restructuring" our government.


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## JeepHammer

Where do you think 'Foreign Invaders' are going to get those RPG's from all the sudden?

You guys are *WAY* out there!


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## TechAdmin

I would more than welcome my friends and family to my homestead if they needed. The more trusted people the better in my opinion.


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## dilligaf

josh302 said:


> Imo food, friends and family are the last thing you should be worried about if shtf, If large areas are without power and supplies for more than a few days, foreign invaders will be the first threat. .


i personally must disagree with your statement. While i agree at some point the UN troops will be here and all i think food is going to be the biggest issue by far . When the economy winds down shipping and hauling of goods will cease (more than it has thus far). As they cease more businesses will fail and close...If martial law was instituted think about road blocks closures, etc etc and goods will not be able to freely move across the country. All the farmers that lose crops, that cant get loans that didnt or arent going to plant are going to be the major issues... Food will be one of the number one concerns..

If your in a big city n dont mind food handout lines perhaps its a different line of thinking and living. If you are out of town or rural its a different story altogether...

on the trusted people thing.. its a good thing so long as you have the food and supplies for those trusted people,,, and i hate to say it often times those we trust aint quite the same folk under circumstances they are not accustomed to,,,


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## skip

Dean said:


> I would more than welcome my friends and family to my homestead if they needed. The more trusted people the better in my opinion.


My Grandparents owned a farm near the railroad tracks during the depression. The allowed the Hobo's to camp on a corner of their land, and would feed them with the stipulation that they would help with some of the chores, of which there was many. Some chopped wood, some worked in the garden, and some might help put up hay. A few even helped cooking and cleaning.

As a Christian, I am honor bound to help anyone that asks, be they family or stranger, until my last breath, and the only stipulation will be that they help as their talents permit.


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## AgentFlounder

Where the heck is this notion of invasion and martial law and all that coming from? What historical examples can you cite in favor and against such an outcome? So far my research into hyperinflationary periods in history (south american nations as well as germany post wwi, russia, poland, and others) I haven't found any evidence of martial law or invasion. I recall there was the coup attempt in Russia but... that was in moscow... not the whole country. The big problem was people couldn't afford to buy food or necessary stuff.

People have a tendency to pay a lot of attention to outlandish, fearful things rather than looking analytically at all the risks we face.

But anyway back to topic, I think that's a good approach -- work for food. It's easy to fantasize about being the guy who has it all and fending off the moochers, but life has a way of working out different than we plan. So if we're on the asking end, then what. I try to keep that in mind. Sometimes even the prepared folks wind up in the soup.


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## sparticle

For the hurricane Rita evacuation, I loaded the truck with all the gas cans that were already full, loaded supplies of dried food and brought a lot extra, got the animal food and grabbed the pre-done file folder with maps of all the back roads. The route included never having to get on I-10 or any other major freeway. I knew there was no way I was going to hit the freeway with the hordes evacuating. 

As I scooted under I-10 with my truck and trailer, a female alone with supplies, and I saw thousands of people in total grid lock on the freeway, I broke into a nervous sweat. 

Once I had to pull over to fix a tarp over the load (mistake) and I was lucky to find a group of families in a parking lot with women and kids running around. I stopped there, hopped out, quickly fixed the load and got back on the road. I was so nervous someone was going to bonk me over the head, and take my gas and food.

The whole 6 1/2 hours to my grandparents house (it's was a 2 hours trip normally), there was no cell phone signal because the lines were all busy. Once I saw a small out of the way gas station and pulled over just to top off the tank. I was nervous even getting in the small line to get gas. I knew I had a lot more with me than most. I was also expecting to loose everything and thought that what was in my truck was all I was going to have left. 

So long story short, I get up to my grandparents house. Half my relatives showed up with their out of control dogs. They also had very little or no food. I fed 11 people for days (close to a week) and provided the gas for the generators (reluctantly). I didn't want that danged generator on, but the relatives had milk and juice, lunch meat and cheese for the kids and there was no ice to be found. Plus my two elderly grandparents were up there, so of course I shared with them. I had rice, beans (pinto, black and red), split peas, oatmeal, oil, pasta, canned goods etc. things that didn't need refrigeration and could be cooked over fire. 

The first day up there, we found out the hurricane was going to hit further East than first expected, so I wasn't so nervous about sharing all my food and gas with them after that. I knew my house was intact. The hurricane ended up taking out the power.

I was so shocked at how utterly unprepared these people were. They brought food that needed ice and very little of it. No one really asked if they could come, they all just sort of showed up. Some people it took over 12 hours to get there because they took the main highways since they didn't know how to get there the back way. I said, didn't you know millions of people were going to take the main roads?!


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## Canadian

FN - Thank goodness the extended family are not that spiteful. They're probably not motivated enough to get revenge on us for excluding them. But if they did survive we'd never hear the end of it at family dinners.


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## Canadian

Josh - My home isn't RPG proof but it's pretty solid. Probably bullet proof. Reinforced concrete and brick. The concrete is several feet thick. I've been thinking of having a special window film on my glass to keep stuff like bricks and rocks out if there is a riot in the future.


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## Canadian

Dean - I like your can - do attitude. Do you by any chance have a "Welcome" mat at the foot of your door?


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## Canadian

Dili - During the last snow storm that paralyzed the city they called out the army. There was an 8x8 armored car on every major intersection with a full squad of armed troops. I remember seeing the armored vehicles from the gate house.


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## Canadian

Skip - When my dad was a kid he and his friends built a shack to use as a "club house." They would hang out in there kind of like the little rascals. One day they all went to the club house and it was full of hobo's. That was the last of their club house.


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## Canadian

Flounder - I think we're all like the lobster in the pot. You get dropped in the pot and everything is fine. Next thing you know it's nice and warm. Before you know it you're boiled. They keep chipping away at our rights bit by bit. Every day they make a little more progress in taking power from the civilian population.

I don't think it will be the case that we wake up one morning to tanks on our front lawn. It'll happen so slowly that we won't really notice. The government will make all kinds of excuses to make it seem reasonable. Average people are pretty trusting and they'll go along with it. 

I don't think martial law is that far off. Executive order 6102 in 1933 made private ownership of gold bullion and coins illegal in the United States. With "confidence" in the U.S. dollar at an all time low they could do this again. 

They could also make guns illegal like they have in Australia. They could also pass laws about buying and holding large amounts of food. They could outlaw barter of any type. 

If you want to see how far individual rights have sunk find a person who is not white who traveled across the U.S. / Canada border lately. I know several "brown" people who have been held at the airport for up to four hours. I also know several people who were strip searched and had their cars taken apart at the border. These people are doctors and professionals born and raised in Canada. I've known these people since childhood. No criminal records - solid law abiding tax paying citizens. I live in a very multicultural city so I know a lot about what happens at the border. This never would have happened ten years ago. Things are changing for the worse... Slowly...


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## Canadian

Sparticle - What a story! It's great to hear that everyone made it through okay. Just reading your story I got nervous about your trip. I can just imagine the stress you were under. You family is very lucky that you were so well prepared. Sound like you came in to save the day. I hope they took in the experience and decided to prepare for the next one a little better. In any case - great story - thanks for sharing.


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## dru9

Canadian said:


> Dili - During the last snow storm that paralyzed the city they called out the army. There was an 8x8 armored car on every major intersection with a full squad of armed troops. I remember seeing the armored vehicles from the gate house.


Ah yes. The days of Mel Lastman. If he weren't flogging sofas we'd have the army out there right now!

As for letting in the family? No worries there. I trust them all, they all prepare, and they aren't afraid of work. Don't know where I'd put them though!


----------



## skip

Canadian said:


> Skip - When my dad was a kid he and his friends built a shack to use as a "club house." They would hang out in there kind of like the little rascals. One day they all went to the club house and it was full of hobo's. That was the last of their club house.


Grandpa always said MOST of the rail riders were just good men fallen on bad times. But among every group, you will find bad apples you have to get rid of. As I said, the stipulation was they had to work for their keep.NO WORK, NO FOOD. That got rid of the bad ones. And the very few that tried to start trouble found themselves at the wrong end of a shotgun!


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## CVORNurse

sparticle said:


> I didn't want that danged generator on, but the relatives had milk and juice, lunch meat and cheese for the kids and there was no ice to be found.


I have never understood this need to stock up on milk bread and sandwich meat if a disaster is imminent. Here in Arkansas, if they predict snow/sleet/ice, within 2 hours the shelves are emptied of these 3 items. 
It's almost like people think in a disaster, they cannot survive without this.


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## Canadian

CVORNurse - Emergency sandwiches... Yeah kind of odd. I'm not a fan of sandwiches at the best of times. Unless they are "hot" sandwiches like Italian veal on a bun with hot peppers. Mmm... But regular sandwiches I can leave.


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## Canadian

Dru9 - Yeah mayor Mel was something else. The whole army vs. snow storm was almost as funny as the picture in the paper of his wig blowing off in the wind. That was hilarious.


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## Canadian

Skip - They didn't think all the hobos were bad. But some of them we're pretty scary. Riding the rails is a pretty old concept these days but apparently there are still hobos in the U.S. who ride the rails. Saw a show about them on discovery channel.


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## Backwoods

CVORNurse said:


> I have never understood this need to stock up on milk bread and sandwich meat if a disaster is imminent. Here in Arkansas, if they predict snow/sleet/ice, within 2 hours the shelves are emptied of these 3 items.
> It's almost like people think in a disaster, they cannot survive without this.


In the big cities in Va. it's milk,bread and...... toliet paper. 

Out my way we always have a good laugh at this.


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## Canadian

I always keep a large supply of toilet paper. The alternative seems highly unpleasant.


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## Backwoods

Canadian said:


> I always keep a large supply of toilet paper. The alternative seems highly unpleasant.


Yep..........most preppers do. When it's a run on it around here though some people act like the paper factory just went out of business.


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## The_Blob

wow, what a thread!

it wasn't until I was 9 or 10 that I realized that not every house has an entire room as a pantry like my family...

450 sq. ft??? dang, that's 20x22.5... my house has _*rooms*_ bigger than that!

I try not to deal in absolutes as every situation has varying degrees of special circumstances to those involved, but for the most part I would like to help people out of a tough situation, but I also firmly believe that people should definitely take responsibility for their own lives/actions if they are able.

Canadian, here is a link to a great bicycle powered generators site
Working Bikes


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## Canadian

Blob - Yeah 450 sq feet is pretty tight. You have to make the most of small spaces. 

Power Bike Ho!


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## CVORNurse

Canadian said:


> I always keep a large supply of toilet paper. The alternative seems highly unpleasant.


That is why I currently have 56 rolls of Scott in my closet, in addition to the 60 or so that is currently divided between the 2 bathrooms. And will probably add more tomorrow, as one of the groceries has it 12 rolls for 5.99. Current price at Chinamart is 15.96 for 20 rolls, so a big savings. Only catch is limit 2 pks with additional purchase. But they have some other things on sale that I need.

But one of the other forums I read recently had a discussion, and some people use flannel wipes, save them up and wash/reuse. Don't think I can sell my hubby on that idea though, unless/until the SHTF.


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## Canadian

I buy the kitten brand. I keep them stacked in the bathroom. I think my record is about 48 rolls in the bathroom. When my parents renovated their bathroom I installed dual toilet paper holders so the TP is maxed out.


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## littlechickenranchHen

I didn't vote because I did not see my answer: let them in and then give them chores!!! They can stay but they have to do their part to help out.


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## Canadian

Littlechicken - What would you do if you gave them chores and they didn't do them?


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## littlechickenranchHen

I would send them packing!!! Tough love.


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## Canadian

What if they outnumber you and don't want to leave. People don't always do what they are told. That's the sticky situation with a breakdown of society. 

Are you willing to point a weapon at your family members and force them out into what is probably certain death? I don't know if I believe anyone is that tough. 

So far half the people on the poll said they'd let them in no matter what. This proves that even a below average person can't be that cruel hearted.


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## littlechickenranchHen

It's nothing about being cruel-hearted. I must have had a different upbringing than some. My daddy raised me, my sister, and my brother to work for what we wanted, do an honest days work for an honest days pay and to don't expect anything for nothing. My sister and brother will have to remember this in times of hardship or I will remind them. They would be welcome at my home, but they would have to work just like the rest of us, or they would be required to leave!!! Point blank. If I said, leave my house, they know me well enough to either get to work or leave. I would do what it takes. My dad is end-stage COPD. He would be with me and he would be the supervisor. I can assure you he would stand behind me in this matter, and my siblings know me well enough to know I meant get to work or leave. I personally don't think it would come to that. We just aren't the type to sit around and do nothing. However, my brother's wife is. She is lazy,lazy,lazy. However, my brother would either have to convince her to work or make a tough decision for himself. I don't think that would be an issue either, because she has nothing to do with any of us. She thinks she is better than us. I believe that she would go to her welfare-living family and try to get something for nothing from the government like the rest of them. Luckily they don't live around here, so she would be out of my hair. I don't know what would happen to them if the SHTF and the gov't couldn't bail them out, because that is what they are used to. But to answer the poster, I would do whatever it took to take care of my family. If she wanted to come be part of it, she would be welcome, but the same rules would apply to her as well as anyone else. My dad's #1 rule was "you put your feet under my table, you abide by my rules." The same holds true at my house, and just as I turned 18, thought I knew it all, and he told me this and I chose to move out rather than abide by his rules any longer, they would have to do the same. I find it hard to believe that anyone would believe that they would have to take up arms against family members. I am talking about close family members, my distant relatives aren't close enough to even be able to realistically get here, and they don't know about any stash I may have. I remember the days of my youth, when my dad did have to take up arms to protect him and his mom and dad against one of his brothers and one of his sisters. I guess if I was put in that position, I would also, but it would be because I had no other option.


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## Canadian

littlechicken - What if you showed up at your sister's place? What if she told you to leave and you had no place to go? Even though she's lazy it's still her place. Would you leave? Just curious.

Peace!


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## jebrown

I would have no problem turning unwanted people away. Why would you deny your family for lazy people or more to the point stupid people. They are stupid and or lazy for not preparing.
Anyone friend, family or stranger who poses a threat to me or my family will be dealt with in the prescribed manor necessary. 
That is why so many people do not prepare. I know whose house I can go to for food and shelter so why bother with the time and money to prepare. So and so has all that is needed. Then they will lay a guilt trip on you if you try to deny them help. 
If you are lucky they will offer you a fist full of cash. A lot of good it will do as there will be limited places selling supplies if any have supplies.


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## littlechickenranchHen

Yes, Canadian, if she asked me to leave her house, I would. I was raised that way, plus, I don't want to be around anyone that doesn't want me around. I won't be looking to her for help, she doesn't even cook, so I don't believe she will even have the staple basics. I have heirloom seeds, wheat and grinder, and other preps, so I will stay where I am. I also have chickens, bunnies, pond, river property, etc, so I can catch fish. I believe I will be OK. I hope and pray everyday that things won't ever get as bad as we all imagine they could. I know I could survive, but I don't think I would want to have to fight to keep what is mine or be without running water or electricity or this great forum and others to communicate with the outside world, but I believe that I could if I had to. I grew up with out it, so I can do it again if I have to. 

Thanks for the opportunity to really think through this issue!!! Peace be with you also!


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## GunshowNick

I would have voted

"turn lights out and hide as if the jehovah's witness are at the door"

if it was an option


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## LiveFreeOrDie..

This is indeed a tough question. The biggest issue is just how much you can absorb depending on your circumstance. This is what makes the thought of depression and mass unemployment so scary for me.

In the 1930s, the US was a more much more agrarian society. Today, most of the population lives in major cities or their suburbs. Most people in the 30s were able to get through it because they lived in REAL communities where people knew, socialized and worked together. In todays world, most people can recognize their neighbors, but could tell you little about them, maybe not even know their name. Unfortunately, your situation of not even speaking the same language as most of your community compounds the difficulty.

Having grown up in "the sticks" and also living in a big city during my lifetime, I can say that heavily populated areas during times of strife would be more or less a free for all.
In the country, I grew up in a household that canned food, had our own garden, had a hand pump well in addition to our regular house, electricity dependent well, my father hunted and we could all fish. We lived 45-60 minutes from the nearest grocery store. We had neighbors that all lived the same way and some of them had farm animals and we were all willing to help each other out and did from time to time. I can understand where Jeephammer is coming from on that note, but I don't think he understands what it is like to live were you can't and don't have those things. Don't get me wrong Jeephammer, I hear what you say and agree mostly with your position, but obviously Canadian and many others don't have the advantages we do.

I know many people, just as others here have described , that eat almost every meal out, that couldn't cook anything that didn't come all together in a box and laugh at people like us that have more than a weeks supply of food much less radios, portable stoves, water, etc. They have been raised that if you need food you run out to Walmart that is just 10 minutes away or call for delivery. These will be the people that prepared people will need to defend themselves against.

My family believes in preparedness. Most of my wife's family has a moderate level of preparedness, but also has the ability to hunt and garden, etc. There are a few that are very soft and spoiled and the go to Walmart in an emergency type and. My wife and I have discussed this and agree that her parents and a sibling or two's families will most certainly be welcomed because they will have supplies and skills. The jury is still out on the slackers, luckily they are fewer than the prepared ones. I agree totally with the 'follow my rules and make yourself useful or leave" line. I suppose we would give them a chance to be part of the group, but they will also know that they will be booted if they are a burden.

I agree with having guns and ammo, if for nothing else, to at least hunt with if you can, but they will also be used to defend myself and mine if need be. You or another poster was correct, the police can't and won't defend you from others, they might come after if you are lucky. Just remember, if you pull out a gun, be ready to use it because if not, it would probably be taken and used against you. Family first.


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## LiveFreeOrDie..

a thought just came to me, Canadian. If you have mentioned it, sorry for missing it, but do you store freeze dried or dehydrated foods? They can be stored for 20+ years if kept in a climate controlled area and kept damage free. You would get more bang for your buck with your storage space.


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## Canadian

My wife and I did a taste test with freeze dried foods and we don't like the taste as much as regular food. We figured if we're going to stock up we might as well enjoy what we eat. As the food gets older we'll rotate it into the kitchen or the local food bank. Many seniors in our area rely on the food bank and they need the food more than we do. That's just how we roll. Thanks for the suggestion though.


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## MudDuck

Well what struck me in the first post was the fact you said you have tried to get your friends and family to do some stocking but they think your a kook. I would have no problem saying no and in fact would be preaching every time I could bring the topic up to not come to my house in the event of disaster,,period!!! I WILL reject you due to previous conversations about the issue where you refused to prepare so don't come running to me, I'm not preparing for you Im preparing for ME! I will shoot if necessary to protect my stash. It's not like they were not warned to prepare for themselfs and choose not too. They were informed and made the "decission" not to prepare not a mistake not to prepare. There is a difference.


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## Canadian

It's funny but a lot of survival posts can come across as filled with anger. I'd be a bit upset if they came by unprepared but I don't feel so angry that I want to shoot someone.


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## littlechickenranchHen

Canadian,

I really appreciated your comment on seniors in your community getting stuff from the food bank. Do you have a senior citizen's center in your community? I manage the local senior citizen's center, and it would be awesome if you have one if you could make your contributions directly to the center. You can even request that they go to the most "needy" citizens. I have gotten donations, and I know the financial situation of each client, so I have been able to make "care packages" for them. Just a thought, littlechickenranch


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## Canadian

Due to being so busy at work every day we take the "carpet bombing" approach to donations. We'll gather a whole bunch of stuff and in a few hours we'll drop it of all over town. I'd like to take a more personal approach. Maybe if my work changes. For now I'm too busy to get a lot of my personal stuff done.


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## Roi du Rodentia

Your own or the in-laws?


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## Canadian

My own stuff... I rarely see the in-laws even thought they live close by.


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## Roi du Rodentia

Canadian said:


> My own stuff... I rarely see the in-laws even thought they live close by.


Lucky you? All sillinesscity aside, even the in-laws, you simply have to let them in or you may as well renounce your right to being called a human
being. Ergo, prepare for them as well! You know you're going to feed and possibly house them as well, so you might want to investigate some uber cheap foods and recipes. ( Road kill would not be out of the question depending on your relationship with the Mother-in-law and others of course)
Just because you're morally obligated to lugging your brother man around when things get tough, does not mean you have to feed them prime rib on a weekly basis. 
Maybe if they finally get tired of oatmeal and grits two or maybe three times a day, they'll start to do something and contribute to the community larder?


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## Canadian

Roi I would prepare for them as well but there are two major factors. One I do not have enough space at my place to store the goods. They need to allow me into one of their houses to use it as a storage space. Two I cannot afford to buy everything for them. Times are tight.


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## Roi du Rodentia

I can understand the times being tight aspect entirely and wish you the best. I see no option other than a full-fledged effort to bring the extended family to terms with the fact that they need to do something, ANYTHING to help you prepare. Personally, I would not hesitate to hold the threat of road kill stew over their heads when things pardon the expression my Frosty Friend, "go south". Of course, morally, you are obligated to caring for your kinfolk, but no where does it mandate they have to like what you offer them, not when they could have and still can provide at least a minimum level of preparations to the family's community larder.
Do you live in an area of Canada where you have easy access to hunting fishing and trapping? Maybe they're capable of putting food on the table that way? Is wild rice an option even if it is at best a limited resource?


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## Canadian

Downtown Toronto Population: 6 million. No road kill, no wild anything, no hunting, no trapping. Just whatever you can store. I can buy wild rice at the health food store.


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## northernontario

Canadian said:


> Downtown Toronto Population: 6 million. No road kill, no wild anything, no hunting, no trapping. Just whatever you can store. I can buy wild rice at the health food store.


Squirrels...

Downtown Toronto has lots of squirrels. Go to a park, you don't even have to tempt them with seeds or treats... they'll come right up to you...

of course they've probably got a ton of diseases and toxins in their body from living and eating in downtown Toronto.


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## Canadian

Yeah, I'm not to keen on the health of any downtown animal.


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## beansnrice

My opinion is that I would want my family to bring supplies if they were going to stay and if they couldn't or in your case, Canadian, won't bring any then they can at least help garden, farm, clean, cook, hunt...something! They have to be of help at some point. You won't be able to live yourself if you are too busy caring for everyone else. I know they are family and there are all those emotional issues and attachments but you need to step up and let them know so you don't get run over.


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## dru9

Other than bring their own supplies, about the only thing my relatives can do here at this time of year is shovel my driveway!

I can't imagine the flack I'd get for grabbing a squirrel downtown. 

I've got a 'possum in my backyard that comes around at night. Maybe try him out?.....


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## Canadian

Yeah, there are lots of laws against grabbing squirrels in the city.


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## Turkish

Well, they won't wanna be put out on the streets with nothing so they'll learn a thing or two and help you out in return, I'm sure. 
Sometimes you just have to put your foot down and stand up for what you believe in, ya know?

I know they aren't having any of it now, but look at the bright side....you are the prepared one. If you can't stand to cut the umbilical cord, then suck it up and keep on keepin' on!!


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## The_Blob

anybody ever see 1961 Twilight Zone episode _*The Shelter*_ ?
The Cuban Missile Crisis didn't happen until October of *1962*

A small gathering of neighborhood friends in a typical suburban community are having a small dinner party to honor the local Dr. Stockton at his house. Dr. Stockton is well-known and liked by this gathering because he has either administered to the health and well-being of his guests or has delivered their children. Everybody is especially friendly and jovial and mention is made of his late night work on a fallout shelter that he has built in the basement. Suddenly, a Civil Defense announcement, overheard by Dr. Stockton's son, is made that unidentified objects have been detected heading for the United States. In these times, everybody knows what that means: nuclear attack.

As panic ensues, the doctor locks himself and his family into his basement bomb shelter. The same gathering of friends becomes hysterical and now wants to occupy the shelter. All of the previous friendliness has vanished and is now replaced with bitter hate and soaring desperation as pent-up hostility and suppressed emotions boil to the surface. The end is moments away and everyone's mind is now vehemently poisoned by the clawing desire to survive, at any cost - the feelings of a neighbor, the sanctity of a friend's home, friendship itself, or the raw submission to violence. The last scene shows the once-friendly neighbors breaking down the door to the shelter with an improvised battering ram. Just then, a final Civil Defense broadcast announces that the objects have been identified as harmless, falling satellites, and that no danger is at all present. The neighbors apologize for their behavior, but Dr. Stockton wonders if they had not destroyed themselves, even without a bomb.

" No moral, no message, no prophetic tract. Just a simple statement of fact: "For civilization to survive, the human race has to remain civilized." Tonight's very small exercise in logic from the Twilight Zone. "

damn if Rod Serling wasn't a genius


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## NaeKid

Canadian said:


> My wife and I did a taste test with freeze dried foods and we don't like the taste as much as regular food. We figured if we're going to stock up we might as well enjoy what we eat. As the food gets older we'll rotate it into the kitchen or the local food bank. Many seniors in our area rely on the food bank and they need the food more than we do. That's just how we roll. Thanks for the suggestion though.


Do you have a MEC nearby? The one here in Calgary has some great "camping meals" designed for long-term storage and camp-stoves and the like for ultra-light backpack camping. If storage-space is a major-issue for you (and it seems like it is) .. MEC might be the solution to your problem.


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## Think Prepared

I have worked hard for years to put away the items I feel needed for the future. I have also studied and practice the skills I need to survive. I tell everyone I know what to and how to. It mostly falls on deaf ears! I even have a website with survival articles and equipment for sale. Think Prepared

People are starting to understand the need to prep, but for most it's too late.


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## Largecar

I have sat here and read this entire thread and agree with many of you. Our parents are all deceased and siblings are thousands of miles away. My wife and I have been prepared since 1995. Having adult children that think we have lost our minds has put all the money load on us...until now. At Christmas we ask for gifts to add to our cache. Amazingly our children were very receptive this time and asked to become a part of our survival plans. I always knew I didnt raise stupid children LoL just reluctant ones! Well they had been part all along in our eyes but to have them willingly prepare has made a huge difference. They have set aside a monthly amount to increase our supplies...so good so far. Back to the poll though we would help those we could but not at the risk of our grand babies going without.


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## Canadian

I find people's attitudes are changing in the past few months. Many of my friends are asking me to take them on a field trip to the gun club. They are also asking me for advice on safes and on buying gold and silver. I think the economic downturn is starting to sink in.


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## merlotmaker

Largecar said:


> I have sat here and read this entire thread and agree with many of you. Our parents are all deceased and siblings are thousands of miles away. My wife and I have been prepared since 1995. Having adult children that think we have lost our minds has put all the money load on us...until now. At Christmas we ask for gifts to add to our cache. Amazingly our children were very receptive this time and asked to become a part of our survival plans. I always knew I didnt raise stupid children LoL just reluctant ones! Well they had been part all along in our eyes but to have them willingly prepare has made a huge difference. They have set aside a monthly amount to increase our supplies...so good so far. Back to the poll though we would help those we could but not at the risk of our grand babies going without.


That's cool. Glad to see that your kids are hopping up on the bandwagon!

I don't much care for my family so I'm gunna go ahead and lie and say I don't have any supplies....


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## Canadian

It took a while but we finally got three liars. I was beginning to think you're all way too honest. Thank for your honesty! Liars! ;-)


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## ingodwetrust

*Family or no family hummmmm*

Just like the most of you and your familys our family (husband side) all think we are nuts, now we do have one member that says she is behind us all the way (but she stays in the closet doesn't want to let any of the other family members know her true feelings). She is the only one in the family that knows how much prepping we are doing so I think she is just keeping that one foot in our door just in case SHTF. I did tell her that if anybody shows up at our door they better not be empty handed because its not fair to us, that vehicle they are driving better be full of canned foods, blankets/towels/ pillows, personal needs/cleaning supplies, medications etc... Now saying that we did prepare for people showing up, they will be eating are barter items which are awhole lot of beans & rice and the off brand products while my husband and I will have the good things locked away in the master bedroom. I've been prepping for many many years and we are at a point that our supplies will last us for several years with what we have. We did add chickens to the back yard (14) why so many just in case family show up we can share, we have a nice big garden and yes I'm canning things, and we are in search of two kinder does (goats for milk and making cheese). So I will let them in with a smile on my face while I'm thinking about how they all thought we are nuts . LOL


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## Canadian

Yeah. Kill em' with kindness. Good plan!


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## Canadian

I thought due to a lot of the family discussions I've been having lately I'd revive this thread to get a bit more data from our newer members who may not have come across this old thread. I've been struggling with the issue lately and I think I'm just going to have to force people to discuss it seriously as hyperinflation is now taking effect and the economy is sinking at an accelerated rate. 

If you have not seen this thread before please cast a vote and post your thoughts. 

Thanks Everyone!


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## sinbad

> We also live literally across the street from a supermarket. If things start to get bad we can walk across the street and bump up our food supply and store the food all over the house.


My comment is not realted directly at taking relatives in but rather related to your living proximity to a potential "target". If things are very bad , the supermarket mnay be looted and destroyed. I don't like my housing to be so close to anything like gas station, supermarket or anything resembling any crowd gathering spot.

Just my 2 cents


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## sinbad

Canadian, 

Given your location in downtown of a big city , and having such a small aprtment, you do not look at all like a "good" place to bug out to. If I was your uncle I will choose a 'better' bug out location. It may not have better people than Canadian , but has a better safety record. 

Do you think it because you told everyone about your stuff ? 
May have e-mailed some photos of your over-stuffed pantry ? 

I still think not everyone is going to head in your direction in disaster. 
Usually people run AWAY from big cities.

Regarding Jeep different view from many members, if we read carefully we notice a difference in Jeep's sitiuation. He is in a COOPERATIVE community where EVERYONE contributes something. It is different from when one person or one family does all the preps and others do not even listen to suggestions and warnings, and then expects to be taken care of. 

It is a bad situation no matter how you look at it. 
My preps are only for my family also, and they are NOT ADVERTIZED. This is why I expect no one will come toward me. However, depending on the situation, I can go myself to any elderly folks or desrving relatives or neighbors and hand them some supplies if need be. 

This is what I did in some water shortage situations. I didnt advertise how many water tanks I had, but when the water problem prolonged I offered my neighbor a hose passed from my house to his to use for filling drums and cans. 

It depends on the sitaution.


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## Riverdale

My SiL and her hubby and 2 kids would be here, and let in happily. Very littl the BiL and I cannot do together. Then we would decide if we would hole up here or bug-out to the family (mine) farm up north, where more guns and more hands would be welcome and needed.


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## bunkerbob

Every year I print up and give to my close relatives a disaster plan. This will have suggestions, storage ideas, route info, up-to-date phone numbers both local and long distance, where to meet, what to bring. This is for most disaster scenarios and emergencies. A couple of years ago when we had the fires in San Diego county one of my married children had to evacuate. No panic just followed the plan and everything went accordingly. I still believe that it is best to over prepare for additional bodies, most likely it will be a benefit for the situation.


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## Canadian

sinbad said:


> My comment is not realted directly at taking relatives in but rather related to your living proximity to a potential "target". If things are very bad , the supermarket mnay be looted and destroyed. I don't like my housing to be so close to anything like gas station, supermarket or anything resembling any crowd gathering spot.
> 
> Just my 2 cents


The supermarket is separated by a four lane road and the outlying walls of my gated community. They could burn the place down and it wouldn't have much of an effect on my complex. We're getting gas masks in case the police, who are across the street from the supermarket, fire off some tear gas. I think the proximity of the police station and fire station just 50 meters from the supermarket will take care of a lot of problems.



sinbad said:


> Canadian,
> 
> I still think not everyone is going to head in your direction in disaster.
> Usually people run AWAY from big cities.
> 
> My preps are only for my family also, and they are NOT ADVERTIZED.


Exactly. If there is a food shortage most cities only have a three day supply of food. After that is exhausted everyone will leave and run for the countryside. That means in less than a week we'll have the entire city more or less all to ourselves. A deserted city would be the safest place to be. The countryside would be swarming with millions of displaced refugees desperate for food.

Toronto has a population of 2.5 million people and that does not include the population of the surrounding area. I'd have better luck staying put as the 2.5 million people clog the roads and terrorize the farming communities. I think bugging out to the country may not be as good an option as most people think. I'd rather wait in the deserted city for a few months and let the mayhem wind down.

As far for being on a farm by yourself, what do you do when a few thousand city folk show up and start going through your fields. I think it's overly optimistic to assume that two people with guns can stop a few thousand starving and desperate people. It's a problem not too many people think about. But it is a very real problem. How do you deal with the hordes when they arrive?

I don't "advertise" my preps. Only the family and a few friends know. Also my house is a pretty good BOL. Thick concrete walls, basement that's built like a bomb shelter. Plus there will be plenty of abandoned units to move people into.



bunkerbob said:


> Every year I print up and give to my close relatives a disaster plan. This will have suggestions, storage ideas, route info, up-to-date phone numbers both local and long distance, where to meet, what to bring. This is for most disaster scenarios and emergencies. A couple of years ago when we had the fires in San Diego county one of my married children had to evacuate. No panic just followed the plan and everything went accordingly. I still believe that it is best to over prepare for additional bodies, most likely it will be a benefit for the situation.


Good moves Bob. I'm prepping for larger numbers now. I'm also thinking that extra space won't be much of an issue as we could just move people into one of the many abandoned homes right next door. After about a week the entire city should be completely empty.


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## Jason

I just read this entire thread in bits and pieces as free time allowed this weekend. Much to ponder. It's not how I voted (I think) but now after hearing the other input I'd tell other than the closest family that they need to show up with some goods if they plan on showing up at all. 

See that, Dean? The forum works-people interact and ideas form, are melded, and evolve for the betterment of all involved. 

As far as the farm questions from Canadian-let'em burn the barns and fields and steal the tractors if they still run. Let 'em take the seed and grain and livestock. All that will matter (family and preps) will hopefully remain unmolested in or adjacent to the house. Perhaps windows could be knocked out of the upper levels or the roof damaged to hide the people holed up in the basement. It's not a perfect situation, you're right there.

Ultimately, I think it matters not where you live as a standalone fact, rather that you live where you are comfortable. In other words, a city person will feel most comfortable in the city, and country folk will be most comfortable in the sticks. If your comfort level (mental more than physical in this case) is as high as possible, your brain will focus more energy on feeding the kids, mending clothes and tools, trying to heal the sick and hurt, and less on scanning the horizon for invaders or waking up every time something goes bump in the night.

My basement is only so big and there is only so much room in the rest of the house so I'd be selective on who makes the short list. I do agree with the consensus that everyone "who puts their feet under my table" as was so handsomely stated earlier, will step up or step out. I'm not coming home sweaty to feed those who had their feet up all day. I do that enough now being a working man in a welfare world.


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## Stu Padasso

I make sure everybody knows where I stand...When the subject comes up..and people say well...."I'll just come to your place"......I tell them glad to have you.....But if you are serious...I'll give you a list of stuff you need to bring....And I tell them I'm in a small group...and I can't bring in people that don't have STUFF....just as I will not allow other people in our team to bring in others...we all in tune with this....All my friends and relatives are aware where I stand...It makes some mad... because they tell me they don't have the money to Prep.....So I tell them to sell the lexus and buy a honda ...and use the money you make from the lexus to get stuff... and quite buying things you don't need...and get your lard ass wife off her ass and cook a meal....and fire the maid.... They get me so mad...no clue....But If S.H.T.F. I know they will show up...and get pissed at me because I, don't have a bed for them...and don't have enought food for them...or the shit head boy friend whose pants are 3 sizes to big..and showing his underware.....
I'v tried and tried to get them to at least get a 2 weeks supplies for a just in case.....I'm that neighbor/relative that they talk about....So I don't say anything more...At parties and get togethers...I don't bring up anything about the economy...or any other subject that has to do with prepping
I hope I'm wrong and will never have to use the stuff for prepping.....But I don't think so.... IT may be 1 week 1 Mo. 1year ...maby lots of years away..But it will happen
Dr. Prepper


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## sinbad

I think people who don't have anything still can join IF they have a needed skill ( like a doctor or nurse) or they are willing to WORK. I may not be very mad with people who don't have any stuff like being mad with people who will help themselves to be served by the rest of us. 

It is good idea to go camping with your folks once in a while. Camping will show you the reality of people. Who really works hard and who sits down and spends the time whining and complaining. Who becomes a cheerleader in time of a small problem, and who shouts (the sky is falling). 

This info will help you decide whom to take in and enjoy or you take in and regret.


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## Canadian

Jason - I truly hope we never have to use our preps. If anything goes down I hope your family is spared any hardship. The closer we get to an economic collapse the more it becomes apparent how HUGE the forces that we will have to battle will be. It's like when I see pictures of the damage from the floods in New Orleans. It's so much water I can't even comprehend it. In the same way I can't comprehend a city of 2.5 million people all leaving the city in a matter of days. 

In the face of such huge problems I start to feel really small. Still, giving up is not an option and I think we all do hope for the best. Comfort is important and right now I feel more comfortable making my stand in the city. I've been thinking about planning an observation post on the top of a nearby condo tower to give our group early warning and long distance observation capability. Facing facts I'm too urban to be of much use in the country anyway. I need to build those skills before running is even an option.

Stu - You and I and a lot of other people have been saying the same thing all along. The cure to the whole economic mess is simple. Stop the madness and only buy what you can afford. In the past I've felt like it was futile to try and convince people to change. These days it seems like things have changed a little. People are getting a little more interested in preps. I hope the people in your area start to come around.

Sinbad - I agree about camping even though I don't like camping. Some people prove how useless they are within a matter of minutes. A few days in and you're ready to strangle them. In a bad situation not being well equipped can be horrible. Lessons are learned fast. 

My wife and I have talked about a "run through" where we live for a few days like we would in a disaster. She has a blog and it would make for good posting. We'd shut off the electricity, gas, and water and see how it all goes. Kind of like camping but indoors. I have a feeling my wife will do great. I have a feeling some of our friends would be whining about the lack of TV and internet while sitting on the couch and sulking. I've got a lot of thinking to do about who will be a good team member and who won't.


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## Jason

The rooftop observation post is a good idea. The whole point of this is making the most of what you have in both tangible goods and skills among your group. Knowing what you know and, more importantly, what you DO NOT know.

In the real deal, we'd all be scared to death. The only ones not scared will be the ones who are too stupid to comprehend the situation. That said, I think everyone on this board will do fine.


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## Canadian

I'd also add a scoped rifle to the rooftop observation post. Apart from giving information about the view in all directions they can also drive off looters with rifle shots from several thousand meters away. We could basically keep the complex isolated by taking the highest ground in the area. They can direct foot patrols or give them a heads up of there's a group approaching. Kind of like an eye in the sky.


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## NaeKid

Jason said:


> In the real deal, we'd all be scared to death. The only ones not scared will be the ones who are too stupid to comprehend the situation. That said, I think everyone on this board will do fine.


Fear is only felt by those who are un-prepared. You would find that if you have run through all the possible issues in your mind, wrote-down possible scenerios and the best course of actions, practice what is preached - there will be no fear, only a challenge that we have to deal with in real-time - no talking about "what-if" - just doing it.

I feel that most of the members here already the right mindset to not feel the fear that most others will have - and - will be able to roll with the punches and give their own 1-2 back! :2thumb:


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## Canadian

Fear is a strange thing. I'd like to think we'd all be okay. Sometimes things don't always go to plan.


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## UncleJoe

Canadian said:


> My wife and I have talked about a "run through" where we live for a few days like we would in a disaster. She has a blog and it would make for good posting. We'd shut off the electricity, gas, and water and see how it all goes. Kind of like camping but indoors.


Although DW is completely on board with prepping, I brought up the idea of a dry run this past summer and it did NOT go over very well. :nuts: So I let it go.


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## Von Helman

UncleJoe said:


> Although DW is completely on board with prepping, I brought up the idea of a dry run this past summer and it did NOT go over very well. :nuts: So I let it go.


Isn't that the truth, sometimes you have to know what battles are worth fighting and which ones aren't?

I try to get my wife to go camping with me all the time and she doesn't like to. She argues why we can't just cuddle in bed, and since I don't have a reply as why it better in nature with the wild animals around I let it go and end up cuddling in bed with her until the next time I mistakenly bring up the same topic


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## Canadian

Von Helman said:


> Isn't that the truth, sometimes you have to know what battles are worth fighting and which ones aren't?
> 
> I try to get my wife to go camping with me all the time and she doesn't like to. She argues why we can't just cuddle in bed, and since I don't have a reply as why it better in nature with the wild animals around I let it go and end up cuddling in bed with her until the next time I mistakenly bring up the same topic


I can't ever turn down getting in bed.


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## allen_idaho

I would be willing to take in relatives in a disaster situation. But they will be working to help out. I can not stand freeloaders.

The problem is that a good percentage of my family members and my girlfriend's family members are either extremely lazy, or have absolutely no useful skills, or both. 

The lack of skills I can handle. There are several jobs I can either teach them to do, or a few jobs which don't require any skill at all (like guard duty).

But if they are going to be lazy and sit around doing nothing while the rest of us are working, I have no problem giving them their walking papers. In a bad situation, the last thing I need is a useless drain on resources.


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## Canadian

I think being well prepared people none of us can stand to be around the lazy or the stupid. The problem is I'm pretty sure we all have a few lazy and stupid people in our extended families. Another problem is people who have their odd ball politics. You know. Vegans, anti fur, anti meat, anti gun, non violence fanatics. Sometimes a few of these are in the family too. 

It would be interesting to see how quickly their politics change in a survival situation.


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## bunkerbob

Canadian said:


> I think being well prepared people none of us can stand to be around the lazy or the stupid. The problem is I'm pretty sure we all have a few lazy and stupid people in our extended families. Another problem is people who have their odd ball politics. You know. Vegans, anti fur, anti meat, anti gun, non violence fanatics. Sometimes a few of these are in the family too.
> 
> It would be interesting to see how quickly their politics change in a survival situation.


Cannibalism....


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## sinbad

> In the past I've felt like it was futile to try and convince people to change. These days it seems like things have changed a little. People are getting a little more interested in preps. I hope the people in your area start to come around.


Sadly, I beleive this is temporary for many people. 
Sadly, they will throw themselves in madness once agian when the economy look like improving.


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## Vertigo

Well, this has been an interesting read so far. I voted for the "Demand they bring supplies if they want to stay." for lack of a better alternative.

First of all, this really wouldn't be up to me, but up to my parents, for I am still living in their house. But if it were up to me, and I am pretty sure that would be how my parents would decide, it would be something along the lines of 'our house, our rules' Meaning, they would have to, as some already proposed, have to aid themselves as well. By helping us maintain food supplies, maintaining the house, doing some menial tasks, etc. Overall there would be no free-riding. After all, saying flat out no to one's own family is truly heartless, but we are not a charity either. 

However, if things really went down the drain fast, I really wouldn't know where to put all my familymembers. There are about 20-25 grown ups and 24 children... And that's just one side of my family...

greetz,

V.


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## Canadian

Wow fifty people is a big family. Imagine how much food you would need to feed fifty people for just one day! That's enough to feed two people for a month.


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## Vertigo

Canadian said:


> Wow fifty people is a big family. Imagine how much food you would need to feed fifty people for just one day! That's enough to feed two people for a month.


Yeah, well the biggest issue is that although most of them could take care of themselves, they are not the ones who would come knocking on our door. But a couple of people from my family just have no sense at all, and they would be the first to show up!

V.


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## Canadian

The biggest problem in the world seems to be other humans.


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## sinbad

How about if they are not lazy people or freeloaders. 
They came to you with more stuff than yours, but they have lost their supplies on the way ( stuff looted or the car sunk/burned with evreything in it.) 

Would you take these people ??


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## Canadian

sinbad said:


> How about if they are not lazy people or freeloaders.
> They came to you with more stuff than yours, but they have lost their supplies on the way ( stuff looted or the car sunk/burned with evreything in it.)
> 
> Would you take these people ??


I'd let them in as long as they agree to provide for themselves. Anyone that resourceful would be good at gathering food, supplies, patrols, and all that good stuff. Unfortunately, that would never happen to me. I don't know any other prepared people in the local area.


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## momof4

*family*

I would let my immediate family (including nieces and nephews) in. Our family is pretty small, my in-laws on a different continent and unlikely to show up. On top of that my family is even more prepared than I am so if they showed up here it would have to be some environmental event in their town and I would gladly share with them.

As for friends who were only here because they failed to prepare, no. I would share today's supper with whoevern decided to come, but no one aside from family is staying here.


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## TechAdmin

My family is small so no worries those are the people I've prepared for. My wifes family is on the steps begging to get in though. I just don't like those people.


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## longtime

My wife and I keep our storage a secret, but since we are out in the country most of our family say they will be there if there is a problem. We also have the abillity to stock pile much more than we need, so we plan on all our family showing up at the door, even the ones we don't like and have the supplies to handle that for some time. 

We hope that by keeping it a secret the number of "friends" is limited.


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## TJJackson

*When the relatives come a knocking...*

No one has commented on this thread for a long time but I just found it. I am faced with the same problem. I have a lot of brothers and sisters, aunts and uncles and cousins etc. Commonly referred to as the "whole fam-damily" and they know that I am a prepper and have been one for years. I have had my hands full just preparing for my wife and kids and grandkids. Luckily I had a large head start and am as prepared as one might want to be. We live in a great, off the road and out of sight place. I designed and built it myself over time. When some "fool" says that their plans are primarily to come to my house and allow us to provide for them, I smile and say "you won't get near the place". This usually ends the conversation. The future belongs to the prepared and if you do not prepare, you will have no future.


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## Clarice

Amen TJ. We live in a very small house(less than 1,000sf). It is perfect for us. The only ones we would allow to come and stay in shtf situation will be the ones that are bringing their own supplies and provisions for sleeping (tent, campers etc.) and they must be willing to work for food. Gardening and caring for animals is not easy for us as it use to be as we are both over 65. Times will be stressful enough without having to care for a bunch of spoiled deadbeats. Don't get me wrong we love our families, all 7 children, 19 grandchildren, 2 great grandchildren, 14 brothers & sisters, their spouses and children all combined. We have talked to each and everyone of them about preparing only 2 have made small preps.


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## HozayBuck

*I think we all worry about this issue and there is no easy answer , But I know we all have a small group of friends and family we would not only "Like" to have with us but in fact will "need" to have with us.

I've always believed in just looking somebody in the eye and asking them right out what they think. The same would apply in this case, I guess I would sit them down , one at a time and explain what I think is coming and what I plan to do about it , and I would tell them I would like them to be with me and mine but that it takes pre-planning and lots of it and if they want to be involved this is the time to get busy with it... if they have a positive response then have a list of what they need to do and buy and pre locate at your place , this for family and friends, tell them just who your making the offer to, if your friend hates your BIL then that needs to be handled up front..

Hell yawl know this stuff but maybe ain't thought it out .. I know preppers ain't the type to be into denial and you know the strength and weaknesses of your friends and family.. I have friends I'd rather have with me then family so making a plan and an offer will save some problems down the road...

I know this much , if I have a family member who sits on his ass and says I'll come to your place , I have no problem in saying that if they don't have a truck load of food and supplies you are not getting in..if they won't work now to save their own wife and kids they sure as hell won't do squat for yours when the SHTF.. Tuff Love folks Tuff Love..

I guess I would take in their young kids ...it ain't the kids fault and the adults can make it better without that worry...

So I guess the answer for me is up front facts and tuff love... lay it out, you really can't hide the your a prepper to people who are close to you ...

That's my battle plan good or bad...*


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## BillS

In a way, there's an easy answer. It's just a very difficult answer to give. "I'm sorry. I told you to prep. I have enough for me and my family. No one else. Good Bye. Good Luck."

I was one of the very few who answered the poll, "Tell them all to go away." It's not that I don't care. I just can't risk the lives of me and my family by taking in more people. We have a year's supply of food and water. There's no way to know if we have enough or not. Or when things will get back to normal. If ever.


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## Wanderer0101

Fortunately most of my immediate family is at least somewhat prep minded and has useful skills. As far as the others go, I have no tolerance for freeloaders, parasites or those that would not cooperate or follow direction. There are way too many people that want to make their problem your problem and it is something I have gotten in the habit of just refusing to accommodate. 

I decided a long time ago that I would not sacrifice the willing and useful for the unwilling and useless. Yes, I would use lethal force against those that I consider an existential threat. Reality must trump emotionalism or the lazy and oblivious will drag you down.


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## becky3086

I think I would have to take in my family. I would hope that they would have sense enough to bring what food and supplies they have with them. My brother would be a good person to have since he knows about all things mechanical, after he lost some weight (and he would) he might be healthy enough to be a real help. My sister would be useless but my brother-in-law is good at hunting and fishing and can do some preserving etc. He's learning anyway. All the kids would be useless as they have never learned anything. I am sure it would be difficult (I hate taking people into my house) so I imagine they would all leave as soon as possible.


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## SageAdvicefarmgirl

becky3086 said:


> I think I would have to take in my family. I would hope that they would have sense enough to bring what food and supplies they have with them. My brother would be a good person to have since he knows about all things mechanical, after he lost some weight (and he would) he might be healthy enough to be a real help. My sister would be useless but my brother-in-law is good at hunting and fishing and can do some preserving etc. He's learning anyway. All the kids would be useless as they have never learned anything. I am sure it would be difficult (I hate taking people into my house) so I imagine they would all leave as soon as possible.


I think the most important thing to do when folks come is *to lay down some law*, as in

1-You don't work, then you don't eat
2-All food is rationed
3-Stealing, Lying or Cheating is a punishable offence
and 4-In MY home I RULE, love it or LEAVE!

Don't let kids off the hook, even a 2 yr old can be a helper! Teach them HOW to work!


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## CatWoman

For me, I could not turn away family if it came right down to it -- even the ones I've tried to encourage to prepare and "rolled their eyes". I live alone and I'm extremely well prepared. If something happened and the stores ran out of food and water and other necessities, I could take care of myself easily for at least a year -- maybe longer.

The way I look at it is: 1) it's the Christian thing to do, 2) they're my family, 3) I feel I could make use of the skills they have that I don't, and finally, 4) I think the more folks in a group, the better off we would be. Of course, the way I imagine things going down is economically. For instance, let's say it looks like everything will shut down and my sister (for example) calls me ... all upset and not knowing what to do. I'd tell her to start throwing everything I tell her in boxes and throw them in the SUV fast! Then I'd tell her to go as quickly as she can to the closest gas station and fill the car -- then, get as much $$$ as she can from the ATM and then hit the stores and buy up what she can.

At the same time, I'd tell her what what tasks to tell her hubby to do (spread the work), like hit the closest grocery store and buy everything he can without causing a panic unless it's already that way. Then for all of them to come to my house as quickly as possible. We'd sort things out here.

That's about the best I can think of right now. I could never tell them "they're on their own -- they were warned -- but I could get them to bring everything they could get their hands on as quickly as they can.


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## JayJay

CatWoman said:


> For me, I could not turn away family if it came right down to it -- even the ones I've tried to encourage to prepare and "rolled their eyes". I live alone and I'm extremely well prepared. If something happened and the stores ran out of food and water and other necessities, I could take care of myself easily for at least a year -- maybe longer.
> 
> The way I look at it is: 1) it's the Christian thing to do, 2) they're my family, 3) I feel I could make use of the skills they have that I don't, and finally, 4) I think the more folks in a group, the better off we would be. Of course, the way I imagine things going down is economically. For instance, let's say it looks like everything will shut down and my sister (for example) calls me ... all upset and not knowing what to do. I'd tell her to start throwing everything I tell her in boxes and throw them in the SUV fast! Then I'd tell her to go as quickly as she can to the closest gas station and fill the car -- then, get as much $$$ as she can from the ATM and then hit the stores and buy up what she can.
> 
> At the same time, I'd tell her what what tasks to tell her hubby to do (spread the work), like hit the closest grocery store and buy everything he can without causing a panic unless it's already that way. Then for all of them to come to my house as quickly as possible. We'd sort things out here.
> 
> That's about the best I can think of right now. I could never tell them "they're on their own -- they were warned -- but I could get them to bring everything they could get their hands on as quickly as they can.


~~~For instance, let's say it looks like everything will shut down and my sister (for example) calls me ... all upset and not knowing what to do. I'd tell her to start throwing everything I tell her in boxes and throw them in the SUV fast! Then I'd tell her to go as quickly as she can to the closest gas station and fill the car -- then, get as much $$$ as she can from the ATM and then hit the stores and buy up what she can.~~~

I'm extremely confused...why would you wait??? Why doesn't she have a BOB already?? I have '6'!!!! Right next to the SUV in the pantry room within 6 feet ready to throw(two are already in car..firestarters/blankets/food bucket).. 
What if the gas pumps are empty or no electricity? Why does anyone not keep their tank full?? I use two vehicles and they NEVER get below 3/4; with 40 gallons in the shed.
Why not already have cash in the house and in the car??? ATM won't work if the grid is down!!! Then what??
Hit the stores with the crowds and fight?? Why not have it already in a bucket ready to go?? It's easy to store a week's worth in a 5 gallon bucket.

I just think maybe we're taking a lot for granted not being pre-ready.


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## texas_red

jebrown said:


> People say that there is no way that they could turn some one away in the event of a disaster or whatever.
> If theser same people showed up at your door and wanted to be ivited for dinner every day day in or day out you would turn them away after a short time. If they came to your house and walked in and took your food you would call the police and have them arrested for stealing.
> People who will show up uninvited or unprepared are doing the same thing. Stealing from you.
> Every one has been advised to prepare it is covered to one extent or another in the media for amy years. If they refuse to accept responsibilty for their own actions why should you do it for them. This is the reson so many don't prepare. They are so use to someone else providing for them. They eat out and can't cook, someone else is taking care of them. Paying for the meal doesn't change the fact that they are not self-sufficient. They are followers and not leaders they constantly have some one else to look after them for what ever reason.
> I have provisions for my family and that is all. I have made it plain to the four others in my family that no one else under any circumstances are welcome.
> We have two grandsons that live out of town ages four years and 5 years they would be welcome but not thier mother or stepfather. They have been advised but don't care to plan, the boys don't have a choice.
> I will not risk denying my family to provide for idiots too stupid to prepare. I will turn them away without any guilt at all. I know this may sound harsh to some of you but think of how you would feel sitting there watching your family doing without do to lazy individuals who just want to mooch.
> I have offered to include others but no one wants to contribute any money to by supplies or provide food and supplies.


You've already tried to inform your relatives that preparedness is a good precaution and they've rejected the idea.

Maybe the best scenario would be for some sort of short-term (week or less) disaster to occur where you could get them to recognize the risk of being oblivious. During that week, you could aid them and they could wake up. Make it clear to them that mooching won't be tolerated after this soft introduction to survival.

But the bottom line is that you certainly can't force them to be responsible for themselves. They're adults. They need to recognize that and begin to behave accordingly.

If they don't... Oh, well.


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## BillS

CatWoman said:


> For me, I could not turn away family if it came right down to it -- even the ones I've tried to encourage to prepare and "rolled their eyes". I live alone and I'm extremely well prepared. If something happened and the stores ran out of food and water and other necessities, I could take care of myself easily for at least a year -- maybe longer.
> 
> The way I look at it is: 1) it's the Christian thing to do, 2) they're my family, 3) I feel I could make use of the skills they have that I don't, and finally, 4) I think the more folks in a group, the better off we would be. Of course, the way I imagine things going down is economically. For instance, let's say it looks like everything will shut down and my sister (for example) calls me ... all upset and not knowing what to do. I'd tell her to start throwing everything I tell her in boxes and throw them in the SUV fast! Then I'd tell her to go as quickly as she can to the closest gas station and fill the car -- then, get as much $$$ as she can from the ATM and then hit the stores and buy up what she can.
> 
> At the same time, I'd tell her what what tasks to tell her hubby to do (spread the work), like hit the closest grocery store and buy everything he can without causing a panic unless it's already that way. Then for all of them to come to my house as quickly as possible. We'd sort things out here.
> 
> That's about the best I can think of right now. I could never tell them "they're on their own -- they were warned -- but I could get them to bring everything they could get their hands on as quickly as they can.


I don't think God calls those of us who were wise and prepared to share with those who were warned, are foolish, and didn't prepare. I think of the parable of the wise and foolish virgins:

(Mat 25:1-9 NIV) "At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. {2} Five of them were foolish and five were wise. {3} The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. {4} The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. {5} The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. {6} "At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!' {7} "Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. {8} The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.' {9} "'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'

During an emergency stores will get cleaned out fast. During hyperinflation money won't go very far. So you'll have people show up with a day's worth of food and expect you to share with them. Most likely you'll all starve together.


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## CatWoman

*I Know What You Mean*



JayJay said:


> ~~~For instance, let's say it looks like everything will shut down and my sister (for example) calls me ... all upset and not knowing what to do. I'd tell her to start throwing everything I tell her in boxes and throw them in the SUV fast! Then I'd tell her to go as quickly as she can to the closest gas station and fill the car -- then, get as much $$$ as she can from the ATM and then hit the stores and buy up what she can.~~~
> 
> I'm extremely confused...why would you wait??? Why doesn't she have a BOB already?? I have '6'!!!! Right next to the SUV in the pantry room within 6 feet ready to throw(two are already in car..firestarters/blankets/food bucket)..
> What if the gas pumps are empty or no electricity? Why does anyone not keep their tank full?? I use two vehicles and they NEVER get below 3/4; with 40 gallons in the shed.
> Why not already have cash in the house and in the car??? ATM won't work if the grid is down!!! Then what??
> Hit the stores with the crowds and fight?? Why not have it already in a bucket ready to go?? It's easy to store a week's worth in a 5 gallon bucket.
> 
> I just think maybe we're taking a lot for granted not being pre-ready.


Hi, JayJay ...

I understand exactly what you mean. My truck is most always kept topped off and I have 30 gallons of gas stored (and rotated) at my home. I keep a sizable "cash stash" at home -- well hidden and plenty of food and water.

Unfortunately, I'm the only one in my immediate family who does. My sister, for example, does NOT want to hear about social/economic collapse and any ensuing chaos. So, I finally tried to come at it from another angle. I suggested she might want to pick up a few extra groceries and such each time she shops because it would be better to get things at current prices than wait till everything shoots up. The truth is, she idea scares her and she doesn't even want to discuss it.

So, I haven't told her not to worry ... she's welcome at my place if anything happens. But if it did, I'd try to get her here as soon as possible -- with everything she could bring.


----------



## CatWoman

*True ... but ...*



BillS said:


> I don't think God calls those of us who were wise and prepared to share with those who were warned, are foolish, and didn't prepare. I think of the parable of the wise and foolish virgins:
> 
> (Mat 25:1-9 NIV) "At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. {2} Five of them were foolish and five were wise. {3} The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. {4} The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. {5} The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. {6} "At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!' {7} "Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. {8} The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.' {9} "'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'
> 
> During an emergency stores will get cleaned out fast. During hyperinflation money won't go very far. So you'll have people show up with a day's worth of food and expect you to share with them. Most likely you'll all starve together.


Hi BillS ...

I understand your point. But "just suppose" the SHTF and your unprepared grown son or daughter and kids show up at your house. Would you tell them they were warned and to leave your house?

Thankfully, my family members are all Christians. That doesn't mean they won't make a mistake in judgment. I choose to believe if we all choose to accept a situation like this and truly rely on God thru faith, He will be there for us.


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## pawpaw

Just one of many truly agonizing decisions that one may face. God help us all in that hour.


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## Meerkat

Send them all a copy of this thread,thats what I do. Of course the whole site is there for them too.They can read it and be warned or they can ignore it and likely suffer the consequinces .
if my family who refuse to prepare do come here I will work their ass off !All this work and doing without while they spend ,party and celebrate like 'there is a tomorrow'will think they hit a work camp if they show up.They eat my rice and roots they find in the woods.


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## Hbarh

*true friends and good family*

i think that if they were good friends or good family they wouldn't put you in that situatiuon. there will be extenuating circumstances, stolen or lost supplies etc. but if they didn't plan ahead then especialy if they are someone
i didn't think would contribute in some manner then it would be beat the street with your feet!


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## JayJay

Hi BillS ...

I understand your point. But "just suppose" the SHTF and your unprepared grown son or daughter and kids show up at your house. Would you tell them they were warned and to leave your house?

Thankfully, my family members are all Christians. That doesn't mean they won't make a mistake in judgment. I choose to believe if we all choose to accept a situation like this and truly rely on God thru faith, He will be there for us.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reread the Noah story..not only did God encourage Noah...then the Lord shut him in!!! Genesis 7:16

I Timothy 5:8....Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

If you are able financially, *then of course*, you must..but pulling a guilt trip doesn't work for me.
Also, many factors unknown..like, why are your relatives _*unprepared?/*_


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## bahramthered

Isn't there a rule about Necroing dead threads?


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## eldarbeast

No thread is truly dead. All any thread needs to be 'resurrected' is for someone to enter a comment on it. 
Imo, there is all sorts of valuable info already existing on 'dead' threads that need to be brought to light from time to time.

eldar


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## survivorsackcom101

*it's a gotta b tough call*

I feel you,I have my wife and 11 year old daughter at home and i keep a 3 day well stocked bug out / camping back pack for us and 30+ two good meals a day for 12 this includes my oldest daughter and son in law there 3 kids,my son and daughter in law and there 2 kids and my 21 year old son.Thats the best i can do. However if my kids in laws come knocking if i help them i take away from my kids and grandkids .this would be hard for my son/daughter in law and me to witness ,but i'de have to put my foot down and be the bad guy lest the innocent ones suffer. You/I have done our best in givivng them a personal heads up. What I am looking at now is replenishable food source's : gardening ( helped start one with kids in laws ,saw what they did /didnt do OMG ) hunting;still learning but ive got lots of bird shot -ducks ,small birds etc. The bottom line for me my kids 1st !


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## BillS

JayJay said:


> Hi BillS ...
> 
> I understand your point. But "just suppose" the SHTF and your unprepared grown son or daughter and kids show up at your house. Would you tell them they were warned and to leave your house?
> 
> Thankfully, my family members are all Christians. That doesn't mean they won't make a mistake in judgment. I choose to believe if we all choose to accept a situation like this and truly rely on God thru faith, He will be there for us.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Reread the Noah story..not only did God encourage Noah...then the Lord shut him in!!! Genesis 7:16
> 
> I Timothy 5:8....Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
> 
> If you are able financially, *then of course*, you must..but pulling a guilt trip doesn't work for me.
> Also, many factors unknown..like, why are your relatives _*unprepared?/*_


If I had children and grandchildren in that situation I don't know how I'd ultimately handle it. If you have a year's supply of food for 4 people you can squeeze in an extra person or two. It would scary if you have a year's supply of food for 2 people and you have 10 children and grandchildren show up. You go from having 12 months worth of food to 2 or 3 or 4 months worth.

My plan is to not answer the door or even see who it is. I'm a Christian. I literally expect to receive a prompting from God to go to the door and let the people in if that's God's will.

It's also easier for me because I'm already prepping for our only son, his wife, and their future child. I have no children or grandchildren that aren't being provided for.

I think the Rapture will come after the collapse. (I really don't want to get into a discussion on that here.) God knows how many people we can feed. So, since we have 12 months worth of food for 4 people that could easily become 6 months of food for 8 people if God so wills it.

You can look at what Noah did on the ark. I understand that Noah took his whole family with him. I don't know that that constitutes a biblical model for preparing for family members. I would say that we absolutely are responsible for our minor children. That isn't necessarily true for our adult children. Some adult children are immoral, dishonest, irresponsible, untrustworthy, and disrespectful towards their parents and their parents' property. I would feel no responsibility for such an adult child.


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## netandtim

I voted for the 'demand they bring food' although I'm not sure 'demand' would be my choice of words.

Our situation is a bit different. My parents and grandmother live next door. Both brothers live about 4-6 hours away. One brother (divorced w/2 adult kids) already sends money down to us to buy preps/supplies. He would come down, but his kids would be on their own because they are not living with the mindset that he taught them (be frugal, be prepared, be honest, etc). Also, they live about 2 hours from him. The other brother (wife w/3 adult kids) doesn't have the money to send down, but would bring what they could. They would also come able and willing to work. We've actually had family discussions about this very issue. Everyone coming has skill sets to contribute (cooks, gardeners, hunters, mechanics, builders, etc). We're a make-do kind of family, so that's what we'd do: MAKE DO!

DH's immediate family are all too far away to enter the picture. My extended family is most likely too far away to make the trip in a collapse situation (and in poor enough health). Most friends that we have here in the area are like minded and would be hunkered down at their own places.


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## JayJay

I hear ya and I'm with ya BillS.

Noah took his whole family(3 sons and wives)with him, but at whose insistance??
God established a covenant with Noah...I'm listening really hard and as of this moment, God isn't establishing one with me. I will remain listening at all times.
Yes, the children do fall far from the tree.:scratch
peace..jayjay


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## machinist

I voted to tell them all to go away, but that isn't the whole story. A selected few I would ask to stay, because they WOULD bring supplies and contribute to the effort of ongoing life. Most of our relatives would not do so.

I believe in community and cooperation, but I am also very much aware of how useless some our relative would be. Our neighbors in this farming community pretty much believe in 'skinning their own skunks', as they put it. We all cooperate, but there is an etiquette to it. Nobody really keeps score, but everyone expects the rest to do their part when asked, and they do so. That has developed a lot of mutual respect. 

Farmers trade field work at times, and at other times when a reasonable trade is not obvious, they offer to pay for help and agree on something at the start. Everyone understands the need to maintain good relationships, so they do their best to make it work out right for all. 

Most of our relatives are modern city types who have no clue how this works, nor do they have any useful skills, and little physical endurance = pretty useless in a post-SHTF situation. A lot of them have "gimme" attitudes that would get them shunned, or worse, around our community.


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## tsalam16

I would certainly invite family in. I would then give them a list of rules and duties they will have to perform while they are there. It will be a work schedule, guard duty schedule, washing dishes, washing clothes, carrying water, getting rid of personal waste if needed, etc.. I would then tell them to turn right around and go home and get together every little item they will need to live with me and to help all of us survive.


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## Kellie

First post here, so hello to all.

I don't think I'd need to worry about my side of the family showing up, they are all good on their own. My husband's side of the family are pretty worthless and I'm more than glad we haven't seen any of them in over 12 years and that they live on the other side of the country.

As to neighbors needing help. I'd help out the ones across the road, the rest can take a flying leap at a rolling doughnut. They've proven themselves to be less than worthless on numerous accounts and I am not providing for those that refuse to help themselves. If they try to steal it, they will be stopped only once and then I'm done being nice about it.


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## BillM

In a situation where food is no longer available, I have planed to feed my children and grand children. I have put back enough food that if I properly ration it, we could get by for a year.

Because we will have to be dependant on each other as a group, they will have to come and live here with me and my wife.

When I say I will have to ration the food, I am planing on some of us loseing some weight so as not to appear too prosperous to those around us.

The question as to what I would do if confronted with a friend or relitive who needed food or even the friend of one of my children who was hungry and needed food.

This is my predetermined rule. If you are willing to forgo eating one of your own meals, you can give it to your friend. He or she will eat it with the rest of our famiely and he will see that you are not eating as you have given he or she your meal.

The thing you will not be allowed to do is give away the groups food.

If your best friend is willing to starve you and you are willing to let him starve you then you are not being smart and he is not your friend.

In years to come, he or she will always remember that when he was hungry, you gave him your own food and went hungry so he could have a meal.


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## md1911

BillM said:


> In a situation where food is no longer available, I have planed to feed my children and grand children. I have put back enough food that if I properly ration it, we could get by for a year.
> 
> Because we will have to be dependant on each other as a group, they will have to come and live here with me and my wife.
> 
> When I say I will have to ration the food, I am planing on some of us loseing some weight so as not to appear too prosperous to those around us.
> 
> The question as to what I would do if confronted with a friend or relitive who needed food or even the friend of one of my children who was hungry and needed food.
> 
> This is my predetermined rule. If you are willing to forgo eating one of your own meals, you can give it to your friend. He or she will eat it with the rest of our famiely and he will see that you are not eating as you have given he or she your meal.
> 
> The thing you will not be allowed to do is give away the groups food.
> 
> If your best friend is willing to starve you and you are willing to let him starve you then you are not being smart and he is not your friend.
> 
> In years to come, he or she will always remember that when he was hungry, you gave him your own food and went hungry so he could have a meal.


This would be a good way in to show who true friends are. And on paper it ounds good. However I'm not sure in practice it would be so simple to let your children or grandchildren starv because they make a poor choice.. I strugle with this very problem but I'm not sure I could allow my kids and grandkids to starve.


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## BillM

*Missing a meal*



md1911 said:


> This would be a good way in to show who true friends are. And on paper it ounds good. However I'm not sure in practice it would be so simple to let your children or grandchildren starv because they make a poor choice.. I strugle with this very problem but I'm not sure I could allow my kids and grandkids to starve.


Missing a meal or two won't let them starve.

If you allow them to continue eating while giving food to friends , they are putting off the pain of not having the meal for months.

If you make them give up their own supper to feed a friend they feel the pain right now and the lesson is immediate. It has to be their choise to give up their own ration for that day or meal.

Conversly the friend realizes they are taking food ,literally out of their friends mouth and they will go elsewhere or they will wear out their welcome real fast.

Most important your children will not resent your authority as much because you gave them a choice.

I would also apply the same rule to myself and my own friends.

"Friend ,I can not give you any extra food, we don't have it to give but I will give you my own meal and will forgo eating myself today, that is all I can do for you."


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## md1911

BillM said:


> Missing a meal or two won't let them starve.
> 
> If you allow them to continue eating while giving food to friends , they are putting off the pain of not having the meal for months.
> 
> If you make them give up their own supper to feed a friend they feel the pain right now and the lesson is immediate. It has to be their choise to give up their own ration for that day or meal.
> 
> Conversly the friend realizes they are taking food ,literally out of their friends mouth and they will go elsewhere or they will wear out their welcome real fast.
> 
> Most important your children will not resent your authority as much because you gave them a choice.
> 
> I would also apply the same rule to myself and my own friends.
> 
> "Friend ,I can not give you any extra food, we don't have it to give but I will give you my own meal and will forgo eating myself today, that is all I can do for you."


Not arguing at all. It makes good sense for many reasons. My other thought is no one including myself will eat unless the contribute to the group. Ie. Work for your food. Everyone can contribute something if their willing. Their will be no end to meaneal labor that needs done.


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## BillM

*Absolutly*



md1911 said:


> Not arguing at all. It makes good sense for many reasons. My other thought is no one including myself will eat unless the contribute to the group. Ie. Work for your food. Everyone can contribute something if their willing. Their will be no end to meaneal labor that needs done.


Never give anything away . Always require somthing in return in goods or services.

In a post aprolyptic world giving away anything will make you look weak so require somthing in return even if it is somthing you do not realy need but be carful not to require somthing that the other person really does need to survive.

"Be Ye wise as a Serpent and harmless as a Dove"


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## md1911

BillM said:


> Never give anything away . Always require somthing in return in goods or services.
> 
> In a post aprolyptic world giving away anything will make you look weak so require somthing in return even if it is somthing you do not realy need but be carful not to require somthing that the other person really does need to survive.
> 
> "Be Ye wise as a Serpent and harmless as a Dove"


Good advice in my opinion. You could always trade labor for food. I will feed you dinner if you split that stack of firewood. Or something along those lines.


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## Londoner

This is the big dilema and the flaw in most preppers plans. What do you do about them? If you show kindness to your friends over the road they will call their extended family.

As inconvenience turns to panic and then mortal fear, two turn into ten and then before long a hundred and things get ugly. Then the really bad guys turn up and its all over.

There can be no prepping without both silence and invisibility. Otherwise you are not prepped.


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## Londoner

md1911 said:


> Good advice in my opinion. You could always trade labor for food. I will feed you dinner if you split that stack of firewood. Or something along those lines.


Then the guy starts thinking if I split his head with the Axe instead of the wood I can have ALL the food and the house and the firewood. You are way too trusting, see the worst in people.


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## Londoner

BillM said:


> Missing a meal or two won't let them starve.
> 
> If you allow them to continue eating while giving food to friends , they are putting off the pain of not having the meal for months.
> 
> If you make them give up their own supper to feed a friend they feel the pain right now and the lesson is immediate. It has to be their choise to give up their own ration for that day or meal.
> 
> Conversly the friend realizes they are taking food ,literally out of their friends mouth and they will go elsewhere or they will wear out their welcome real fast.
> 
> Most important your children will not resent your authority as much because you gave them a choice.
> 
> I would also apply the same rule to myself and my own friends.
> 
> "Friend ,I can not give you any extra food, we don't have it to give but I will give you my own meal and will forgo eating myself today, that is all I can do for you."


And so they go away and tell all their hungry friends "Hey I know where there is a whole stack of food" bring those shotguns and tonight we all eat. Starving people don't see you as a friend they just see the food you are witholding from them.


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## Dakine

yes I agree with some of the other posts... the biggest problem with allowing others in, even under the stipulation that they must work for, earn, or be given the food from someone elses plate is that now you've got the zombies inside your house. they can do an extensive amount of damage once they are inside. Thats a risk as we all know but it sucks because there's implications of turning people away too. 

I hope I'm not ever put in this position, only a very few people from work actually know where I live, and of those, most are prepping too, so for me it's a good thing they know, whether it is come here to bunker down or come here to get me and my preps out. My family is hundreds of miles away and the chances of them getting out of the PAW and crossing 500 miles to get to me is unrealistic. And this brings the posts about "how do you get family to prep"... it's not my problem, I can try to show them, and in my opinion $65 for a costco bucket of 320 servings of TVP chicken plus $24 @2 bags of rice... thats not that much money... but it could feed you for months!

if your plan is I happen to have a full tank of gas, lets see how far I can get... you dont have a plan  

I would probably be more than forgiving for one of my friends (I don't personally keep a "lot" of friends, I have very few friends and lots of acquaintances) and if I knew they were prepping and then got burned out, I'd be sharing my preps and defenses. They tried, that means a lot to me, as opposed to... OMFG, I'm teh hungry... FEED ME!!!!"


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## Londoner

Trouble is a lot of people's plans are just to stockpile guns and ammo and that is deeply worrying. People talk about the zombies, I would like to put a new word into the discussion *RENEGADES* . Those who's only plan is to steal and kill. People who have been getting sexual excitement from violent computer games for years and just wish upon wish that they can do it for real one day.


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## oldasrocks

IF you wish to live there is NO way to feed an outsider. If the outsider is released he/she will tell others and you will quickly be overrun. Hungry people will turn rabid and if you try to keep them from more food they will attack you with other hungry people.


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## lazydaisy67

First of all, I don't particularly get along with my brothers and their wives. They would not follow my rules cause they know better all the time about every single thing so they'd try to take charge. That would not be ok with us. Second, my brother stated very matter of factly that he didn't need to prepare cause he'd just show up at people's houses with his his gun(s) and TAKE what he wanted. That is not ok with us. Third, there's no possibility I could store enough for all of them, their kids and their spouses and their grandkids. And finally, they live 3 hrs away and would have to traverse through relatively large cities to get to us. The chances of them being able to do that without dying are remote at best. I am somewhat worried about neighbors, but have no idea if they would come to our house for anything or not. They don't particularly care for us ever since our lawnmower broke, lol.


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## Dawgbone

I've planned for them regardless so I'd let them in on the condition that they must work or get tossed.

My closets are my brother-in-law with 3 kids (5 total) that live about 7 miles away.

No doubt they are completely clueless and unprepared


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## Wellrounded

For me it really depends who did the knocking, my kids and their families will always be welcome, their extended families (inlaws), some yes but most no. My mother and siblings, they would never make it up the driveway, I moved half way across the country so I'd never have to see them again. I'm not willing to do someone elses work but I'm willing to help those that help themselves, we have made sure we can help a large group but our resources are not endless.


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## Offgridgiles117

Our relatives only know the area we live in (within 200 miles)

They have no idea the city, state or even Zip Code.

Therefore we wont have to worry about that issue. This was intentional.

Our neighbors, think we have NOTHING. Most likely they wont stop by.


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## RoadRash

Great Question!!!!
Reality sets in I have food for X amount of people. Extras show up that I do not like, Hmmm what can they do if the answer is nothing other than target practice hey can move along.... 
I also need to think about the mental issues/stress with having unwanted guests, Since wife n I have had previous relationships would she want my ex here or would I want her ex here who in 13 years has not paid 1 cent of child suport(we have been together 6 years), and now I am going to give up my supplies for him not in this life, would rather help a stranger. Her stepson cant hold a job drinks way too much not going to happen, his brother my stepson will be upset My ex good mother but she is my ex for a reason (lazy self cntered)my daughter will be upset. This is in the LONG TERM if it was a short term couple of days I would grin and bear it. Good thing is none of these people know what I have or my BOL


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## Canadian

It's been a long time since I've been to the forum. It's very interesting to see the results of this poll. Thanks to everyone who has voted on it and posted comments.


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## Dude111

JeepHammer said:


> It's family, you CAN NOT turn them away!


No you cant but when they sit there and call you names for wanting to prepare,IT DOES MAKE IT HARD!!


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## dixiemama

My husband and I plus our son, his sister, her husband an 3 kids, my mom, sister, grandpa and 2 friends are in our group. My husband has another sister and brother in law (no kids) plus his parents who are not prepping. 'Its too hard/expensive' to do. I bought each of us BOB at $10 a piece for Christmas, buy a couple extra cans of food when I shop, buy clothes at goodwill so I can (1) get good deals (2) stock up on clothes in different sizes. I've taken to making everything I can from scratch, canning and will be dehydrating (after my bday  ). There are just some ppl who are too lazy for their own good. If they can't buy food from high end store, they don't want it.


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## bunkerbob

Canadian said:


> It's been a long time since I've been to the forum. It's very interesting to see the results of this poll. Thanks to everyone who has voted on it and posted comments.


Hey, where have you been, I'm still hanging in here.

BB


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## Canadian

bunkerbob said:


> Hey, where have you been, I'm still hanging in here.
> 
> BB


Mostly busy with work.

Is the bunker done yet? You must have got a lot done since last time.


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## bunkerbob

Pretty much done, but always more to do. Expanded it this summer and put on the outside door, moved soil from a 8x8x6 room, or about 14 yards I think, of material, still one 5 gal bucket at a time.

BB


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## Canadian

Awesome! I'll be on the lookout for pics of any upgrades when they are done. 

Cheers!


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## ContinualHarvest

The poll is a bit limited. So I shall refrain from answering there. Instead I will supplement the options. 
I would tell them that they would have to work for their keep and be a contributor to the cause of surviving. 
I would not turn away a family member, or friend for that matter, that is willing to till and toil along myself to increase our resources.
If they just want to loaf and not contribute, they can keep on walking.


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## Canadian

No loafers. Got it!


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## dixiemama

Oh I got loafers! Called last month to have tv cut off cuz basic is just too expensive, then griped today when it went out! Always complaining about the price of stuff but won't buy generic or in bulk.


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## bunkerbob

Canadian said:


> Awesome! I'll be on the lookout for pics of any upgrades when they are done.
> 
> Cheers!


Are you on QT, I will post a few there.

BB


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## Canadian

What is QT?


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## MDsapper

most of my family lives in other states so thats not going to be an issue for me, as for my friends i've already told them that when shtf they are welcome at my house just so long as they bring some kind of supplies


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## MDsapper

and if someone breaks into my home to steal my supplies they are getting an butt full of rubber buckshot


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## BillS

I would treat anyone breaking into my home as a threat to my personal safety. If I had to shoot them it wouldn't be with rubber buckshot.


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## MDsapper

thats just the warning, the second round will be real buckshot


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## 8thDayStranger

My warning shot is me racking the 12g.


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## MDsapper

i want to give them 2 chances to leave cuz its a pain in the ass picking up body parts.


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## dixiemama

Neighbor just down the road has started prepping! He has 2 young kids (6&2) but its 4 more hands to help out with his wife involved. The druggies are being removed from the neighborhood, just 6 more in the trailer court up the road, but I think states gonna shut it down; bad living conditions.


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## Toffee

I would definitely be picky. My husband's family already lives around us and they have storage as it is suggested pretty firmly in our church's doctrine.
My family on the other hand would be iffy. I would let in both of my sisters with the understanding that they would have to work. Older sister would be welcome to bring her boyfriend, but little sister I wouldn't be offended if she took herself and her baby to the dad's place. My mom and her boyfriend would be warned away with a rifle sighted in on them. My dad would be welcome with open arms if he chose to show up here.
My main worry is hubbies friends showing up and thinking they could get a handout. They will be in for a shock.


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## Woody

Interesting thread and lots of good thoughts. I voted Tell them to go away. But with that said, there is no chance of relatives showing up at my door, all way too far away as in several states away. Friends… 

I think the whole idea of sharing or letting folks in would depend on what the SHTF situation is. If it is short term like an ice storm or road flooded sure, I would help all that I could. If it is going to be an extended situation with no end in sight that is a whole different story.

Neighbors I would have to help out in a long term situation. Security and the extra hands are the reason. We could also bunk up in one house rather than several and it would cut down on heating needs and lighting needs. No need to keep several homes up and running, it takes less work to manage one. Friends, only some of them. Yes, they all know I am one of the dooms day nuts and am prepared for a long term situation. I have talked to them about it and several have come around and have their own plans. I talked to one buddy who I only see once or twice a year and he said he is ready to get on the wagon. The ones who think it is ridiculous to have an emergency plan will have to deal with things themselves. They have all had a chance to put their own plans together and if they didn’t, I’m not going to sacrifice mine for them. Selfish? Not at all. Look at it this way, if something happened would they let you live with them for an extended time with no means of support? The ones who are putting a plan together I know would, the ones who are not would not be willing to do that. I label them acquaintances more than friends. They are still good folks, just don’t think it is something they have to do.

Strangers in a long term situation, no. If I do not know them they are not welcome at my place. In a short term situation yes. I would estimate the duration of the event and leave myself and the pup a good buffer then give the rest away.


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## SouthCentralUS

I do not personally know anyone on welfare, however my niece across town married into a family full of them. She is a teacher and her husband is school admin, but they keep no more in their pantry than a couple day's worth of food and health and hygiene items. Her family of five eats in one day what my husband and I eat in more than a week. I would welcome their family on reduced rations but not his extended family. They have lived on welfare for generations, it is not an emergency situation that I could accept. Those people would never pull their weight even if they starved.

I don't think they would come without them and that is ok too. They live in a fantasy land.


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## weedygarden

*Either they get it or they don't!*



Canadian said:


> My wife and I have been gathering a forty day supply of good to survive any possible disaster. We have survived the 2003 blackout and a major snowstorm in 1999. Our relatives had their part of town blown up when a fuel refinery exploded in 2008.
> 
> In spite of all members of the family having lived though or had close calls with disasters they refuse to prepare. When we mentioned our survival horde they thought we were crazy. When we mentioned we would be adding guns and thousands of rounds of ammunition to our horde they were horrified.
> 
> These are people who eat out for every meal, can't cook, can't fix anything, live on credit cards and debit cards, and are unprepared for simple situations in daily life.
> 
> I know for a fact that if there is a food shortage or rioting THEY WILL show up at our door asking to come in.
> 
> We only have enough food and supplies for two people. We built in a cushion so we could stretch it to four as our house can sleep four in relative comfort. However, if they all showed up the food would be gone in a matter of days.
> 
> I don't get along with many of them and they don't even like each other most of the time. Being barricaded in my own home with these people for weeks might be more than I can stand.
> 
> I've told them I'm willing to build a second "horde" at one of their houses if everyone in the family is willing to pay for a part of the supplies. Nobody wanted to chip in.
> 
> What do I do when they show up pounding on the door?


It is too late for you and for many, because you have already spilled the beans about your preps. Either people get it about preparing, or they don't and no running of your mouth can make a difference. It is only when SHTF that many people will say, "Oh, sh**, I should have prepared."

I do my best to just keep my mouth shut and not sell people on prepping. When I meet someone who is at all a potential prepper, I am very cautious about how I approach the topic.

With family, we were raised to have freezers of meat and to can. I have no idea how many of them do more than that, but I do know that some of them do a little. I just feel I do not need to sell them on stocking up and therefore, no one has any idea of what I have, or don't have.


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## dixiemama

Sister in law has backed out-- 'too hard trying to keep everything straight and the kids occupied with no electricity'. Apparently keeping the kids in enough batteries to run their DS's is about a far as she's gonna go. Food for a few weeks. 

I understand that having 3 kids, full time job, disabled husband is stressful, but to come so far as to have months worth of food and a plan in place then to just give it al up bc it's too hard to reprogram your kids? SHTF, they are coming here I know and there isn't anything I can do about it (we won't turn kids away). I just pray that it's far enough out in time for the kids to mature more cuz right now, I can seriously see my nephew having a full breakdown with no electricity.


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## Canadian

Well I can't blame them. The playstation 4 is coming out. Should keep the kids glued in front of the tv.


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## Toffee

Canadian said:


> Well I can't blame them. The playstation 4 is coming out. Should keep the kids glued in front of the tv.


Kids get those? How can they afford it? We are saving up for one lol The husband wants it badly. If the power went out though, he would be ok without it.


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## dixiemama

Oh I blame his parents. This is a 10 year old, who along with his 8 and 7 year old sisters make th decisions in the house. If he sees a Wii/playstation/Xbox game, he gets it no questions asked. Sis in law was doing so good at helping them make it without electronics there for a while, idk what happened. 

Maybe it makes me a bad parent to not let Bub play Black Ops, WoW, etc, but last time I checked, they weren't marketed to 9 year olds. He can stick with his dinosaur and airplane books.


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## MDsapper

i only got to play on the nes when i was growing up and that was after it got to dark to play outside


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## nopolitics12

All of my blood kin, save for those in my house can fend for themselves. That goes for my "friends" too, unless a member of either group has a skill or some type of useful training that I do not. Not to sound cruel, but if you can't be useful in a SHTF scenario don't bother coming to me to be taken care of. I'll be too busy looking after myself and mine.


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## Grimm

My DH and I had decided that we would prep for our little family (us and the kids) and 2 extra mouths if we can afford it. If my parents showed up we would not turn them away and we'd give up our bed for them. If his parents showed up they'd be sleeping in a tent in the yard. If his littlest sister showed up she would be welcomed as would her BF. If the other sister showed up we'd take her kids and slam the door in her face. If his brother showed up he'd have to pull his own weight plus some to stay.

My DH's family are of the 'gimme now!' mind set. We'd have a hard time preventing them from using the gennies to power the tv/dvd (we have a large movie collection since I work in film and tv). We'd go through a years worth of propane with all the showers and grooming they would do in a month. 

I also think my inlaws would have a break down when they realized we don't drink sodas or energy drinks and junk food is not allowed in the door.

I'd like to think they would bring some supplies but that would never happen. My parents would bring both guns, ammo and dry goods since they keep a stock of both in their home.


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## dixiemama

Neighbor down the road has just started, his wife is preg and they have 2 small kids. He is a HARD worker---will do anything you ask without hesitation. They are more than welcome. My hubs oldest sister lives on the same tract of property as us and for all our wasted breath, hasn't started prepping. The other sister, for whatever reason, has 'fell off the wagon' so to speak, and stopped prepping. They will be coming and we have no choice but to have some extras on hand. My mom, sister, grandpa and 2 family friends have supplies and will be welcomed.


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## Grimm

dixiemama said:


> Neighbor down the road has just started, his wife is preg and they have 2 small kids. He is a HARD worker---will do anything you ask without hesitation. They are more than welcome. My hubs oldest sister lives on the same tract of property as us and for all our wasted breath, hasn't started prepping. The other sister, for whatever reason, has 'fell off the wagon' so to speak, and stopped prepping. They will be coming and we have no choice but to have some extras on hand. My mom, sister, grandpa and 2 family friends have supplies and will be welcomed.


My thoughts are if you can grow even the smallest bit of extra food for canning/preserving then that helps when extra mouths show up.

To the OP, we are moving out of an apartment and even then we grew a bit of our own food. Right now I have planters that will yield a minimum of 3-5 lbs of carrots each. I also have planters with blueberry bushes and raspberry bushes. Look into planters for small spaces like the topsy-turvy ones or even an Aerogarden.


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## Canadian

5 pounds of carrots sounds good.


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## Grimm

Canadian said:


> 5 pounds of carrots sounds good.


The carrot planter has a footprint of 11"x18" and is 20" deep.

I plan on growing potatoes in smart pots. I got a killer deals on 15 gallon ones from the hydroponic shop. That is 60 liters. Potatoes need 10 liters a plant. 6 plants a pot! Imagine the harvest!

I also have strawberry baskets with 15 plants a piece. They produced soooo many berries I was hulling and freezing them until I could figure out what to do with them- jams and lemonade concentrates.


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## Newbie007

8thDayStranger said:


> My warning shot is me racking the 12g.


What if a naked lady with a great set asked for food, I think most men would change their mind. Just sayin.


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## Woody

Newbie007 said:


> What if a naked lady with a great set asked for food, I think most men would change their mind. Just sayin.


Great set of what, tools and skills? Even if she came really well equipped I'd still check her hands. If they are smooth and manicured most likely she doesn't know how to use them.


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## 8thDayStranger

Newbie007 said:


> What if a naked lady with a great set asked for food, I think most men would change their mind. Just sayin.


Any naked lady popping up around here will have to deal with my wife.


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## Grimm

Newbie007 said:


> What if a naked lady with a great set asked for food, I think most men would change their mind. Just sayin.


Yeah but lets be real for a minute. She'd have to put up with putting out for that food. Depending on the person or persons she asked for food/help she may end up being passed around like joint in a circle of stoners. Just sayin.

If she came to my door my first thought would be to put some clothes on her back and give her a knife and kick her ass back out.


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## the7wolf

nopolitics12 said:


> All of my blood kin, save for those in my house can fend for themselves. That goes for my "friends" too, unless a member of either group has a skill or some type of useful training that I do not. Not to sound cruel, but if you can't be useful in a SHTF scenario don't bother coming to me to be taken care of. I'll be too busy looking after myself and mine.


Thoroughly agree with this. It might sound harsh but if people won't prep even just a little (keep a week's worth of food and water - I doubt 90% of non-preppers have 3 days, especially water) then what use are they going to be other than speeding you all to an early malnourished, dehydrated death? If one of your family/friends is a nurse, doctor, mechanic, etc., I can see a bonus but letting in friends (how close can they really be if they can't take your advice to stock up a little) or every relative who can crawl to your door doesn't make sense.

Blood may be thicker than water but other than the vamps, I think we'd all be better off with the water!


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## the7wolf

8thDayStranger said:


> Any naked lady popping up around here will have to deal with my wife.


Mind. Wandered. Inappropriately.


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## Toffee

Newbie007 said:


> What if a naked lady with a great set asked for food, I think most men would change their mind. Just sayin.


My husband, Admiral Akbar and I agree: It's a trap!


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## bigg777

^^^Yeah, that!^^^^^


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## Canadian

That sounds like a good trap.


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## LongRider

Our kids have an open invite duhh. Everyone else is to far out to make it . Our Tiospaye (extended family) are all welcome.


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## TheLazyL

Son, Daughter-in-law, Daughter and Son-in-law absolute invited in.

Mother and Mother-in-law. Yes they would be welcomed.

Sister and the Sister-laws with their families..No entiendo lo que dices


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## rawhide2971

My kids and Grandkids are always welcome but the rest of the Wifes lazy brothers are up the crik....I would not let them in for love or money. The smoking alone would choke me and the grands and none of them could turn a shovel full of dirt and would not lift a finger to scrub a pot. I could easily watch them stand in the rain until they turned into ferterlizer. I don't let anyone know about my prepping but tell everyone about being prepared....sounds strange I know but you can talk about it in general terms with out telling anyone to much about specifics. Anyone interested enough to start asking intelligent questions then I start giving them intelligent guidelines and I might, just might, include them into the inner circle....so far that has not been any of the IN-LAW's (OUTLAWS is more like it)


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## gabbyj310

I have a case like most of us on here.If it was the real SHTF.....I would have to say that my brother yep,one sister and her entire family(if they all came)yep,one sister HMMMM yes but ONLY because I have to face my Mother in Heaven,but her kids NO NO and NO!!!!! My daughter, her partner and of course my granddaughter YES,My Son,(and all the kids) and ALL of his in-laws would be the top of the list because they are all good "country folks" and would be a addition to ANY community.I even have a couple of good friends that I would consider as they would pull their weight,but...if you stay you have to WORK (and bring what you can offer) for the good of our community or you aren't welcome.Strangers .....No.... Other so called friends of the " GROUP" ...Depends on many things at the time!! Up to me as it's my land and my "group"/supplies!!!!


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## Roslyn

My husband would probably waver with his Momma, but I would put my foot down so hard on his siblings. They are all a pack of moochie moochie no-do-gooders. Their kids are a pack of wild animals.

No way. If they all can make it up this far North, then his Mama can have her abandoned property in the woods back. It's all hers and she didn't want us to buy it from her and make it into something. So it's there waiting for her. Good Luck.


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## readytogo

TheLazyL said:


> Son, Daughter-in-law, Daughter and Son-in-law absolute invited in.
> 
> Mother and Mother-in-law. Yes they would be welcomed.
> 
> Sister and the Sister-laws with their families..No entiendo lo que dices


I will be more than happy to translate for sister and sister-in-laws.


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## readytogo

Prepping family and friends are like owning a boat, everybody wants to go fishing but nobody wants to clean the boat. Rules should be establish before hand and even with rules you will have bickering and fighting over sardine cans, sometimes is better to teach everybody to build their own Ark than bring them aboard yours.


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## MDsapper

odds are i'll be by myself for the next 5 years so i dont have to worry about that


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## lazydaisy67

Neither one of us likes the idea of either side of the families heading our way for the most part, not that any of them would. Two of my brothers have skills that would probably save our lives, but getting along with them would be impossible. I think I could get along with my sister-in-laws ok. Not sure if it'd be worth it. The third brother is rich as rich can be, but he's an egotistical idiot who wouldn't stoop so low as to come to me for help with anything, so no worries there. 

Hubby's family is wacked. Don't want em, won't have em. Well.....maybe one brother and his wife and kids. He and his two boys are good hunters. Those are skills we surely need. His wife is easy going and fun to be around so they'd be welcome here. 

Friends and neighbors? NO WAY. See Ya!


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## carolexan

I would tell them all to go away. My relatives are in the Carolinas so no problem there. DH has one brother, sister-in-law, 2 sons; all included in our preps. My daughters and family are here already, as are friends that we share our homestead with. I know nothing is 100 % fool-proof but that is our plan.


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## BillS

I think a lot of people will end up taking in relatives and be very angry about it. A lot of people don't have proper boundaries and thinking about their starving relatives will be too much for a lot of them. How many times have some of you people lent out money after telling them you wouldn't? Now's a good time to think about how you'll handle situations with different people that might come up so you'll be ready when they do.


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## helicopter5472

My two kids are in Colorado and I'm in Maine, if they make it here, both are welcome with their families. Both are very industrious and would be a plus.


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## Meerkat

JeepHammer said:


> It's family, you CAN NOT turn them away!
> 
> I took in my neighbors and people from the neighborhood I didn't even know during the floods this spring...
> 
> Either we ALL make it, or it's not worth living with myself if we don't...


Well most of them didn't mind me living with myself by myself. When all the hard work was being done they were enjoying their life on expensive Cancun , Colorado and Cruise Ship vacations. telling us all we like to do is work. Well not true we just don't like being in debt or living off credit cards and in big homes we could never live to pay for. So they better be ready for us to work their butt's off if we let them come.



Canadian said:


> It's hard to imagine the moment of actually telling them they are not welcome. I think the hardest part of survival has nothing to do with getting prepared. It has to do with the emotional issues that come up. Thanks for your opinion.


 It sure does. And few of our friends and family help us so we won't be too crowded. We are the throw away old people now, most of you good hearted people are still young so enjoy the illusion while it last.:beercheer:


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## machinist

QUOTE:
"It's family, you CAN NOT turn them away!"

OOOOH, Yes I can. And those who are not welcome know that. Just because I am related to someone does NOT make them welcome at any time. In fact, family is much more likely to take advantage of you than anyone else, using the relationship to get what they want.


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## Quills

There are some I'd *LIKE* to turn away, but I know, when push comes to shove, I wouldn't be able to.

My Dad, who turns 80 this week, has more knowledge of homesteading in his pinky finger than I will *EVER* have, and would be more than welcome. His "significant other"... well, she's a hard worker, but on a "living together" level, I might find it a little trying 

Any of my siblings, without question, and most of their families -- we were all raised poor, and learned early how to work and we've all raised our kids in a similar fashion. There is only one I wouldn't let through the door, and he's a step-child with a REALLY bad attitude who would steal us blind without blinking.

Friends? Well, the real friends, of course -- the "acquaintances"? Some. I think that many people confuse "acquaintances" with "friends". If you're not willing to help them when they need it, they're not friends: they're acquaintances. Those acquaintances with something to offer, absolutely -- those who want a free ride, the kind who have "jokingly" said, "when TSHTF, I'm coming to your house" in a mocking way?? Probably not so much.

We have prepped in a way that would make it easier for us to take in more, but the truth of it is that our family all lives too far away to actually make it here if there were a "situation", and of those friends and acquaintances that surround us, only one has ever been in my basement, and only as far as the main room. She is a prepper too, and I've been in her basement, but not in her storerooms. We're dear friends, and would help each other without question, but both of us are of the opinion that NO ONE needs to know exactly what you've got, or where. Besides her, no one knows that we prep.

The biggest mistake preppers make is talking about their preps to people who can identify and locate them. If anything ever does happen, that will get more people killed than anything else, I think -- and it probably won't be the people trying to break in.

Canadian -- I lived in downtown T.O. for nine years. My best advice to you is to get the heck out of the city as fast as possible. If we ever do come to a situation where society "breaks", I can think of no place where the phrase "eat or be eaten" will be more applicable.


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## OldCootHillbilly

Didn't answer the poll, mine ain't on there. Simple EAT EM!

Naw, we just keep addin ta the preps. Friends perty much be on there own. The family will bring what they can ta help out.


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## ContinualHarvest

Just about everyone in my immediate family has something to bring to the table if SHTF. Wee all hunt, fish, and have various skills that will prove invaluable in a post SHTF world. There are even some cousins and friends that would be welcome. Most of them are like-minded people and know to put something away for a rainy day...


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## invision

Well for me, my family (mom & dad) are in Ohio. Wife's entire family is in MS. So all are over 400 miles away... As for friends - I have two kinds - ones that are like minded and part of my group - they are more than welcome because they have their own supplies, are hard working, and have certain skill sets needed in the group. The other set of friends, may or may not have guns, but aren't preppers and have no clue that we prep... I would say the likelihood of them showing up is slim to none and if one did the answer would honestly depend on usefulness and the conditions of SHTF... Honestly most would be turned away... It would be hard to do, but the way I feel is, they should have been more aware of the situation around them, I won't feed and protect them when they should be able to do this themselves...


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## RebStew

I was raised and I distill the same in my children, you can't trust anyone but family. I would hope when they show up they would have something to offer but either way I wouldn't turn my back on my kin. As others have said it's too high of a cost for my heart. If it meant struggling to stay alive at least I would be around people that are trying to help me stay alive.


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## Geek999

I am prepping for family in the area and have mutual agreements with cousins elsewhere in the country that if they need to bug out they can come here and if I need to bug out I can go there. It works for us.


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## boomer

Family and neighbors have helped me when needed for my entire life and where I could I have helped them. Over the longer run, say a few generations it works out close to even. 

Most of the people I know prep and have for generations. It is just what you do here. And most of the people I know could house a large number of people if necessary. People would bring what they could from their own stocks and I am presuming they had time to gather stuff up before they had to take a hike. The social norm of preparedness would likely manage those who wanted to freeload without cause.

We would have to adjust and say spend less time in the washroom, eat slightly less appetizing food but all in all I think everyone would do ok.

People who feel they need to be afraid of friends and neighbors may want to consider choice of lifestyle and location getting moved higher up the list of preparation items.


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## crabapple

My3 brothers & their DWS, 6 kids,5 are over 18 & my mother.
My DW family are mostly out of state, one brother has a farm & 2 year's supply at least.
I have two kids, both can earn their way at the M.A.G. with no problem.
My family is at the BOL & are part of the M.A.G.
So we are set, well we could use a few goats, more ammo, but who couldn't.
No naked woman going to make it to your door when TSHTF!
Men are going to need someone to cook for them, so the naked lady in any shape will not get away.
Lets be real here.
I count 7 women in the group after TSHTF, so another will just add to the confusion.
So you can keep her, if you can get her past the women in your house.


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## catdog6949

Once a SHTF situation starts, its too late!!! Stand your ground and inform the people around you, that they need too prepare! Over the last few months, I have been asking my friend who lives 3 floors above me what he is planning if for some reason, he cannot shop.

He has a bad habit of only shopping for three days at a time? 2 days ago I asked him if he had bought any supplies, he got mad, in fact angry and asked me not too ask him ever again.

He says if shtf happens, he will just kill himself, and then he rolls his eyes. I just do not know how to help him. I know he think me and mine will take him in, he already bums meals, by just happening to come by at dinner time, LOL.

Well anyhow the other day he was over and saw my TP stash, made a comment, about about borrowing toilet paper from us, I asked him if he was broke, he said no? So Itold him No go too the store.

This is how he is now, I can only imagine how he will be in an emergency, so me and my other half set him down over coffee and explained the facts of life too him, told him store food, personal items or if something happens, We will turn him Away.

I know this sounds hard but we had to make a stand!


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## dixiemama

Discovered that more and more of my acquaintances are 'homesteading'. Just glad they are doing something. 

Many of our close neighbors are moving or dying out. Lots of for sale and abandoned homes around us. If Hubs disability comes in we are going to buy the cheaper ones, flip them and rent them out to have some more people in the neighborhood. Their welcome package will include an emergency binder and box of supplies. If we can get a couple of like minded families in a mile or 2 radius, less ppl raiding abandoned homes and stumbling upon us. 

Safety in numbers helps too.


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## crabapple

catdog, I know that guy.
He thinks it will never happen, not in his life time, no y2k, or the 3 or 4 times the world has came to an end, but nothing happen.
He thinks you are crazy, too.


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## libprepper

Family gets in period. No discussion.


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## Canadian

Great responses everyone. 

After all this time maybe this thread should be a sticky?


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## buggy

The only people I would/do prepare for is my three children and their families. My parents are gone and I'm single. My siblings... one is well off and could do what I do if he wanted to. The other lives on 8 acres in the mountains with a huge house and could also prep (their son does). The third sibling is one that has spent every dime that ever crossed their palm. I might give them a bag of rice and some canned food. Other than that... no. Anyone that knows I prep is also a prepper.


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## Justaguy987

Bump. This may help with a question that was just asked in a new thread.


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## rawhide2971

:thankyou:I'm glad you bumped this thread...reason being that recent family events with my In laws only serve to reinforce my decesion to keep them out of my home if indeed things go "dark" and there is a shortage of consumables. A bigger bunch of idiots does not exist within 100 miles of my location.....well maybe there are some that just as idiotic:dunno: however they refuse to even attemtpt to pull their weight on the simplest family issues (and thats a lot of weight when they are together) My lovely wife is mad at me because I told 2 of her 4 brothers that I would rather feed the dogs than them....the only reason the other 2 are not included is the locations they live in are two far to make it here if the SHTF. I don't think either of these two could wipe thier own butts if the directions were written on the toilet paper. Not only are they lazy and useless they expect the GOBERMENT to take care of them in all matters. Needless to say I am going to be alone on Turkey day and to tell you the truth I am quite content with that (GRANDKIDS are going to be at the son in laws family this year...:goink: ) anyway those that choose to not prepare are choosing the starve and I am very much ok with that.:congrat:


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## AfleetAlex

This is always a really tough topic. Talking about prepping is a double edge sword. On one hand, you want to reach out, but on the other hand; you don't want everybody and their brother knowing what you're doing. 

I read a lot of preppers over the years, venting about how they've told their friends and family what they are doing, and voicing their frustration when their friends and family are choosing not to prep. I would say this: Please stop telling people you prep. 

There are ways of spreading the message, without coming out and telling people about your food/weapon/ammo storage. In general conversation, you can talk to friends and family about an emergency situation. You can discuss what would they do if **insert situation here** happened, and based on their answer, go from there. I mean, let's be honest. We preppers are like cops. We can almost always spot our own. There are 'tells' everywhere. If you get the standard robotic 'The Gubberment will save me' answer, you can make mention of how well the Fed took care of the people in Katrina. If that doesn't awaken any spark of interest in prepping, I really doubt much will; and it's time to throw them in the Lost Cause pile. If they show a spark of interest, still do not tell them what you are doing; but use that as an opportunity to guide them in the right direction. Once they are awakened, they'll likely seek the information out on their own.

Every person you tell, becomes a liability to your team. People have big freaking mouths. They love to gossip, and they love to be the person who knows something about someone else. It's very easy to unintentionally fall victim to these kinds of people. I know there are many reputable preppers out there, who we all take advice from, who's tell you that you shouldn't hide what you're doing, but I believe in the bottom of my heart that they are very, very wrong. 

For many years, I knew a couple people who grew cannabis. One person wasn't overly open about it, but they told a couple people who they trusted. They were busted within two years, by a third-party who had been told by one of the trusted people while they were semi-intoxicated. The other person operated untouched for nearly 9 years. They led a completely double life. They had one life with their friends and their family, where they just went out and did normal things. And then they have their other life where they quietly and peacefully grew cannabis. They never allowed the two lives to join as one. They were eventually busted on a complete fluke situation. Their closest friends and family were completely shocked by the news. 

I've adapted their story to my prepping. Anyone who knows is a possible liability. Anyone who knows could possibly tell people with guns and ammo that can come and take the things that I have worked for. I fear that many of these reputable preppers that recommend that you spread the word about your prepping, are a bit dazzled by the fantasies of their ability to defend their castle against looters. 

As for being concerned about friends and family not coming with you; I believe that you draw people into your inner circle with your leadership skills. If you are the friends/family member in the group that has your shit most together, The people that you want with you, will follow you anywhere. 

If friends and family are weighing heavily on your hearts, make a list of all of them that you want with you. Then cross off the names of the people you know will be an absolute liability to everyones survival. Take the revised list and then add every person that you know will have to come with them (children, etc) Then, start prepping for all of them.


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## Grimm

After what happened at Roo's party I made it very clear the in-laws are not welcome here post AND pre SHingTF.


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## AfleetAlex

Grimm said:


> After what happened at Roo's party I made it very clear the in-laws are not welcome here post AND pre SHingTF.


Do you know what the best part of divorce is? Losing the in-laws. 

I wake up every day with a smile on my face, knowing that I will never have a mother-in-law again. FREEEEEEEEEEEEDDOOOOOOM!!!!!


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## Grimm

AfleetAlex said:


> Do you know what the best part of divorce is? Losing the in-laws.
> 
> I wake up every day with a smile on my face, knowing that I will never have a mother-in-law again. FREEEEEEEEEEEEDDOOOOOOM!!!!!


That's the great part about K's dad dying this past July. The stepmom/in-law is moving out of state to be with her daughter and grandson so my Roo will never have to see her again!


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## AfleetAlex

Grimm said:


> That's the great part about K's dad dying this past July. The stepmom/in-law is moving out of state to be with her daughter and grandson so my Roo will never have to see her again!


I'm sorry that your spouses parents suck so bad. What is their major malfunction? You seem like you have your shit together.


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## Grimm

AfleetAlex said:


> I'm sorry that your spouses parents suck so bad. What is their major malfunction? You seem like you have your shit together.


K's dad got married to the witch a month before we got married. She has always seen me as competition as the matriarch of the family. I don't want to be the female head of that family. As my dad says I have a way of keeping people honest and the witch hates me for it. His family as a whole has never thought of me (or my daughter) as part of the family so I don't want to be part of the family.

On the other hand my folks refer to K as their son. My dad even told me if we divorce he would like to continue to be a father to K if it didn't offend me. It doesn't seeing how K's dad was never a parent and spent his time cheating on K's mom.

Mostly the no in-law rule is set for K's brothers and sisters. They would all come a mooch and move on when work was required of them or the supplies ran out.

I also didn't like that K's sister at Roo's birthday party dug through the boxes of Roo's outgrown cloths and toys so she would know what to ask for for her 'baby'.


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## AfleetAlex

Grimm said:


> K's dad got married to the witch a month before we got married. She has always seen me as competition as the matriarch of the family. I don't want to be the female head of that family. As my dad says I have a way of keeping people honest and the witch hates me for it. His family as a whole has never thought of me (or my daughter) as part of the family so I don't want to be part of the family. On the other hand my folks refer to K as their son. My dad even told me if we divorce he would like to continue to be a father to K if it didn't offend me. It doesn't seeing how K's dad was never a parent and spent his time cheating on K's mom. Mostly the no in-law rule is set for K's brothers and sisters. They would all come a mooch and move on when work was required of them or the supplies ran out. I also didn't like that K's sister at Roo's birthday party dug through the boxes of Roo's outgrown cloths and toys so she would know what to ask for for her 'baby'.


Jesus. How embarrassing for your husband. It's good that he has a real family on your side. Is he's supportive of the decision to basically ban all of them?


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## Grimm

AfleetAlex said:


> Jesus. How embarrassing for your husband. It's good that he has a real family on your side. Is he's supportive of the decision to basically ban all of them?


At first he wanted to prep extra for one sister, her BF and one brother. Now he sees that they would drag us all down and take food from Roo's mouth.


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## TheLazyL

Mother-in-law. Yes!
Oldest sister-in-law. Could go either way.
Oldest sister-in-law's husband. Yes.
Youngest sister-in-law. No! 

Mother. Yes!
Sister. Could go either way.
Daughter and her husband. Yes!
Son and his wife. Yes!


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## rawhide2971

As AfleetAlex mentions my motto is dont tell--don't tell and don't tell. The grandsons are savey enough that they know PawPaws rules and dont tell anyone at the school, church or any social group that we have "prep Stuff"...my idiot In laws only know that I am always prepared and that there is a method to my ways......oh and that anyone trying to break in will be carried out.... and the boys are becoming pretty fair shots...OPSEC all the way.


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## AfleetAlex

Grimm said:


> At first he wanted to prep extra for one sister, her BF and one brother. Now he sees that they would drag us all down and take food from Roo's mouth.


I don't know what would happen in my situation if the SHTF. Legally, I can't just take my kids from their father and leave to my BOL. Not without force at least; and likely permanently traumatizing them for Life. Even worse, my ex would never leave his father's side in a crisis situation, so I am prepping for his parents and his sister. I know their instincts would probably be to pack up and head to his Mom's sisters home, which is on a few acres in a rural location of Minnesota, but it's not far enough away from Minneapolis to shake off the zombies; and although they are very capable people, they don't have the food storage or ability to produce energy off the grid that would be needed to survive the winter in Minnesota. It's all very up in the air, and I suspect it might be like that for lots of us.

Oh well, I just keep channeling Dorey. 'Just keep swimming, swimming, swimming... '


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## dixiemama

I actually have a pretty good relationship with my ex-inlaws. Ex knows to take Bub to my mom SHTF, they prep somewhat (garden and chickens), and know he has extra stuff in his duffel when he visits.


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## dixiemama

But they are on their own SHTF


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## AfleetAlex

dixiemama said:


> I actually have a pretty good relationship with my ex-inlaws. Ex knows to take Bub to my mom SHTF, they prep somewhat (garden and chickens), and know he has extra stuff in his duffel when he visits.


Bub is your child? He'd leave his kid?


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## brightstar

AfleetAlex said:


> I don't know what would happen in my situation if the SHTF. Legally, I can't just take my kids from their father and leave to my BOL. Not without force at least; and likely permanently traumatizing them for Life. Even worse, my ex would never leave his father's side in a crisis situation, so I am prepping for his parents and his sister. I know their instincts would probably be to pack up and head to his Mom's sisters home, which is on a few acres in a rural location of Minnesota, but it's not far enough away from Minneapolis to shake off the zombies; and although they are very capable people, they don't have the food storage or ability to produce energy off the grid that would be needed to survive the winter in Minnesota. It's all very up in the air, and I suspect it might be like that for lots of us. Oh well, I just keep channeling Dorey. 'Just keep swimming, swimming, swimming... '


I'm in the same boat with my step daughter. Know her mom would never let us take her even if it was life or death (we don't have a good relationship with his ex, she's on the nutso side). So I added her into my prepping, then my step daughters stepdad when they got married, and newly a baby since her mom just found out she's prego. They don't know we are preppers, much less that I've got spots for them and supplies, but push comes to shove I will put up with them to make sure my stepdaughter is safe. Just call us the post apocalypse Brady bunch. Groan...


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## urbanprepping

For I have in my head who I would help. And the family and friends. Are a lets wait and see. Too many variables.


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## Geek999

I mentioned earlier that I am prepping for extended family members. Several here have mentioned complex family structures, which I also have. I have complete clarity in my mind who would be welcome. It will be their problem to show up, which I consider a small price to pay given that I'll have done the up front part.

For children, basically, they're connected to their parents and I recognize I can not control that. I don't have any situations where I would welcome the child but the parent(s) would not be welcome.


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## dixiemama

Yes. He doesn't think that any catastrophic will happen and knows that if he doesn't we have ways to come get him. 

Bub goes to his dads mainly for his cousins who live there. Ex told Bub when he was 1 that if it wasn't for his mom he wldnt even come get him. When Bub is sick, its his mamaw who calls and checks on him, not his dad. It took 3 years and 4 court hearings to get child support. I'd take in his parents, brothers and family and leave my ex to the dogs.


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## goshengirl

Reading situations regarding exes makes me so grateful that my two sons from my first marriage are both legal adults now. It was awful dealing with the ex and his wife before - visitation schedules and child support issues have a way of bringing out the worst in people. My husband (2nd marriage) and youngest son were effected, too. Our lives are so different now that those days are over. 

Thankfully all three of my boys want to be here (not that the 11 yo has any say in the matter). My husband's family is hundreds of miles away, as is some of mine. Those that are within 100 miles are a mixed bag - elderly parents (mother diagnosed with cancer, given less than 6 months to live and that was 18 months ago), a sister with a good heart but little capabilities, and another sister off the deep end.

I would want to do anything to get my parents, but they wouldn't want me to put my children at risk. That would be the hardest thing to have to face - not risking a 100 mile round trip to get an elderly couple that may or may not be able to travel. I pray to never be in that situation. 

The good-hearted sister wouldn't want to live the in country (and we won't go to the suburbs), and the off-the-deep-end sister would not be welcome. So it would seem that when it comes to family, me and my immediate family are on our own.


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## Quills

Most of my family is too far away to be an issue. My side is all at least a 35 hour drive, and my husbands family is all at least a 12 hour drive away. My eldest is in the nearest city -- about an hour away -- and would get here on his bike/with a friend whose family is also nearby, or we would get to him somehow, but it's unlikely that anyone else would show up.

If they did, I would probably take any of them in. My own family are all relatively self-sufficient and hard workers, with plenty of common sense and know-how. We were raised to be self-sufficient, and I would have NO problem taking any of them, except, perhaps one sister who can be a bit difficult, and one grown step-nephew who would definitely be a problem with his clear sense of entitlement and an over-inflated ego (spoiled rotten by his idiot mother, who is now, thankfully, no longer married to my brother). 

On DH's side, DH's brother and his wife would probably take some training, but would work out, eventually, and his parents... well.... despite the fact that we don't get along all that well, and I could never have them come and live with me under normal circumstances, if TSHTF, they'd probably prove to be assets, if we could get past the surface problems. They're now retired, but his mother is a very talented nurse and midwife who can keep her cool in just about any emergency -- she probably should have been a doctor, but when and where she trained, women didn't become doctors, and his dad is VERY high energy, constantly working, and has a very logical "planning" brain. He's run factories during his career, is very detail-oriented, and is a great problem-solver when the problem is "big picture". Obviously, both would be assets. Again, if I could get past the "you're not in charge here" conversation I would have to have with them 

As for friends... most people in this area are more self-sufficient than the average North American, so I doubt that would be an issue. There are some whom I would welcome with open arms, and others that I would definitely encourage to keep moving on past, if necessary, but the reality is, none of us know how this is going to come down -- or when, or if, if we're honest. Circumstances may change our options and choices when TSHTF -- we don't know. All we can say is that, if confronted with a situation where we sense (or know) someone will cause trouble, we'll do what needs to be done to encourage them to move along, or we won't.


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