# Gardening after the disaster happend.



## DCcam87 (Mar 4, 2013)

So I was thinking about this today for a long time and I really couldn't think of a decent answer. I have no one to ask around here where I live so I am coming to you guys/girls for help. Say a disaster/doomsday event did occur, and you have a variety of vegetable seeds available to plant and it is the right time of year to plant. How would you be able to supply enough water to your garden without drawing too much attention to the area that the garden is in? (I know this a pretty broad question but lets say there is no body of water close by, the season is dry, no electricity, and no gas for a vehicle or generator.) I am excited to see what people come up with.


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## kilagal (Nov 8, 2011)

Well do you run rain barrels? If so you could just drop a garden hose down to move that water if you have to. We run rain barrels and fill them in the spring. Matter of fact my dh is busy putting them up right now. And we have a few of the 250 gallon tanks in places you don't notice. 
Normally we use a pump to move that water. But if we had to we would drop hoses instead.


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## Navajo (Mar 4, 2013)

One, you have enough food stored to last a year , or more, without gardening. and you do a few things as possible to broadcast that you have anything someone else may want.

Shelter in, get skinny along with everyone else...means getting in shape ( Most Americans would be surprised what an in shape lean person looks like ) 

Don't do anything like firing up a generator, planting a garden, etc. to draw attention to yourself.

After the crazies have died off, and the time for rebuilding has come, then you will start...maybe not for a year or two.


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## CulexPipiens (Nov 17, 2010)

Take a look at the book, Growing Food When It Counts: Gardening in Hard Times. http://amzn.com/086571553X

It basically throws out Square Foot Gardening and all the other "expensive" practices that require you to buy expensive stuff for the soil. Much discussion on substantially wider spacing than normal, etc. I found it to be pretty good, it's part of my library now, if we ever get to the point of "little house on the prairie" and you're truly on your own.


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## RevWC (Mar 28, 2011)

DCcam87 said:


> So I was thinking about this today for a long time and I really couldn't think of a decent answer. I have no one to ask around here where I live so I am coming to you guys/girls for help. Say a disaster/doomsday event did occur, and you have a variety of vegetable seeds available to plant and it is the right time of year to plant. How would you be able to supply enough water to your garden without drawing too much attention to the area that the garden is in? (I know this a pretty broad question but lets say there is no body of water close by, the season is dry, no electricity, and no gas for a vehicle or generator.) I am excited to see what people come up with.


Obviously water is crucial for crops. So you have to live close to a water source or you're dead. Need to live by a fresh water river or lake. If you have a pool that is full and/or live in a place where it rains a lot then you will have crops, or have a well with a hand pump like my great grandparents had! 
My son and I were talking today about keeping a very low profile when SHTF and what it will be if you are close to society as we are. I have the seeds..I have the water..and I can put my back into it..seriously not excited about all this Sh*t..glad we are not in a big city..holy crap..


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

The big thing would be to plant and grow the crops that are traditional to your area. Acclimated plants that were developed in and for your climate would require less water than those from other areas/climates.

For instance, here in North Texas, squash, peas, peppers and okra can survive and produce without much water most years. Broccoli, rice and iceberg lettuce aren't going to do much at all so choose acclimated plants if at all possible.


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## jeff47041 (Jan 5, 2013)

It seems like catching water in barrels will be some peoples ony choice. Living near a river, stream, or lake would be important.
I have a well, a pond, and within an eigth of a mile from a large creek that runs all year so I think I'm good in that department.
I'm ostly concerned with how I would till the soil if there is no gas available. A hoe just isn't gonna get it


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## DCcam87 (Mar 4, 2013)

These are all really great answers. Where my bug out location is, is surrounded by water so I am not too worried. I was just thinking about that oh sh*t situation if I had to bug out of my bug out location and I had to stay some place less desirable.


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## cqp33 (Apr 2, 2012)

I guess if it would depend on what you could take with you! If you had to leave your food then foraging/hunting until your crops produced would be the only answer. Of course you would also need to set up/acquire a new shelter as well and preferably in a better location than your first one.


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

Another thing to consider is to try and keep your soil pliable and healthy.

If you use chemicle fertilizers you'll be in serious trouble when you run out. It destroys the soil. So if you have to go to compost or organics to enrich soil,it will be hard to get back the natural bacteria the chemicles killed.


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## cnsper (Sep 20, 2012)

Also mulching around the crops will slow down the evaporation of the water so you will not need as much.


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## DCcam87 (Mar 4, 2013)

I would have never thought to mulch around vegetables. That is a great idea.


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## Gians (Nov 8, 2012)

It would be difficult to start a garden somewhere from scratch, keep it camouflaged and deal with deer, gophers and bugs. I'm in a hot fertile area and mulch around everything is very important to conserve water. The more mulch the more active and rich your soil becomes. I'd put down compost, or you could even skip the compost pile and dig in your kitchen scrapes, fish guts and whatever other 'goodies' you have right next to the plants..then mulch, mulch, mulch...rinse and repeat. Guess you could use local cover as your final mulch layer for camo. Depending on the vegetable and your location, mulch will either eliminate watering after the plants have been established or greatly reduce the amount of watering needed. Not putting all the same plants together will help with the bugs and perhaps with people noticing a pattern.


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

We always mulch. Also a timer comes in handy if you have good irrigation set up.Thats our next job.I'm tired of draging around that hose since mt soaker hoses don't work good anymore.We have drip tubes,but want to run pipe and put in emitters.


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## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

For us, watering is usually not needed until late July or early August. The past couple years we have had to water a bit earlier due to drought.

We use mulch, but when we need water, I have a tank set up that collects water from a shed and the workshop roofs. It holds 2,500 gallons but that is minimal when you are watering a large garden. The tank is a plastic Ag tank, 8 feet diameter and 8 feet tall. It holds 3,000 gallons, but due to height constraints, I can only get 2,500 in it from the gutters. I have it set 2 feet deep in the ground on sand, and backfilled around it with sand to avoid any rock punctures. Then, I built a shed over it to keep off the UV from sunlight that degrades plastic FAST. It should last the rest of my life.

There is a drain line from the bottom of the tank that goes out to a faucet. I can hook a hose there and gravity does the rest, since the tank is set above garden level. We use it sparingly, and can keep a 30' x 90' patch going in very hot dry weather for 6-8 weeks.

In a SHTF situation, I wouldn't change anything about how we garden due to that. Only my dogs might be busy. Might not have to feed 'em as much, if they catch something in the gardens, or hung up on the electric fence.  (Solar powered fence charger.) That would be good, 'cuz they have big appetites.









I think it is of the utmost importance to do gardening NOW, so you know what the heck you are doing when it really counts. Figure out what works for you, and refine that. Learn to save seeds. Learn to use whatever you can compost for fertilizer. Get the kinks worked out NOW, while you have the chance. Know what varieties work for you, and save the seeds from them for a few years to have them acclimated to your specific area. Learn about organic gardening and get your soil in shape to grow stuff without chemical fertilizers. It can be done. I am over 6 feet tall and I'm holding a 7 foot Tee post in this photo. That cornstalk is just over 16 feet tall, and was fertilized only with compost and manure.










Figure out what bugs and other pests you have, and learn to deal with them. I can control cabbage worms with wood ashes and some other bugs with a mix of red peppers and soap in water. We have wild grapes in the fencerow that draw away the Japanese Bean Beetles. But Colorado Potato Beetles want at least a dose of Rotenone, or you won't get a potato crop around here. Learn about those things.

Learn abou preserving your harvest. Fresh food doesn't last long. Learn to can, dry, use a root cellar, and otherwise save it all for later.

And, choose your neighbors carefully! Make sure THEY can grow all they want to eat, too!

You might want to grow some tobacco for your own use, or for trade. It's not that hard, and a small garden patch pays big, something like 60 pounds off this little patch 80 feet long. At $15 a pound for cheap pipe tobacco, that adds up! Yeah, that's a manure pile in front of it.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

I think a lot can be done without watering.
We farm and garden east of the rockies in Canada, parkland area. It is not an area known for high precipitation to say the least but we are 99% not irrigated
My S.O likes to carry around a watering can and we often water-in transplants but other than that all the crops (vegetables, cereals, oilseeds, grass for livestock) have no irrigation. Our family operated a larger commercial garden in the past, also without irrigation.

I understand that in some areas in the south this is not possible (a reason I would find it hard to live there) but there are a lot of ways to conserve moisture, many were mentioned above. 
Permaculture practices can be very helpful in this area because as a general rule they do not inclued irrigation.


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## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

jeff47041 said:


> It seems like catching water in barrels will be some peoples ony choice. Living near a river, stream, or lake would be important.
> I have a well, a pond, and within an eigth of a mile from a large creek that runs all year so I think I'm good in that department.
> I'm ostly concerned with how I would till the soil if there is no gas available. A hoe just isn't gonna get it


There is a way, it is called no till or lasagna gardening. You build up the soil in layers over the years resembling lasagna. Worms and bacteria keep the soil mixed and aerated. After 6 years at my new place I am almost there. I do not till anymore but I still will dig a trench and place some new compost in each trench then fill over before planting seeds.

For watering I go row by row or plant by plant on a 4 day rotation. I do not broadcast water I hold the hose and give each row or plant 3 waterings in a cycle. I will go down a section (1/4 of the garden) once then start it again. This gives the water a chance to really soak in deep and saturate the soil. When the top of the soil is dry the water will run right off so it needs to be wetted down. The next day I will go to a new section and repeat until the garden is watered. Make allowances for rain in the watering cycle. Springtime I rarely have to water, it is only in the July August timeframe down here that the heat is brutal and you need to water.

Funny story there. I had just moved down to NC so I was (still am) the G. D. Yankee. Well, I started a little plot out back and the soil wasn't very good yet. So we had a storm coming and I was out there wetting down the soil so the rain could soak in and not just run off. The neighbors came over and gave me one of those looks. Don't you see it is going to rain, what the heck are you watering for? I tried to explain but didn't make any progress. I got one 'bless your heart' and a few Yankee comments as they walked off.

Hand watering also really helps spotting problems before they get out of hand. By hand watering you are looking each row or plant over as you water. You can spot pests or a disease early and take measures before it is a real problem.

I built up the soil using triple shredded hardwood mulch, newspaper, cardboard, yard trimmings and the kitchen compost. I spend the winter tearing newspapers into 1" to 2" strips and cram them in paper bags. I'm kind of a nut so also take the time to crunch up home roasted peanut and pecan shells and save them for the lasagna too.

A week before I plant I give each row a really deep watering using the above method. Almost to the point of over saturating the soil. Again, if you had a good soaking rain this would take the place of using water. Give it a day or two then I spread the mulch. To mulch rows I spread a layer of the shredded newspaper, maybe 2 to 3 layers deep in a random pattern. It is more like just spreading them around but not too thickly in any one place. Then get creative and spread some peanut shells, compost, clippings and whatever on top of the paper. I cover that mess with a few inches of the hardwood mulch. This gives the worms and bacteria a season to work over the newly added stuff so it is good to go for adding the next layer. To plant seeds just pull the mulch back and put seeds in. As they grow push the mulch back over the holes.

Between the rows I use cardboard to keep weeds down and also to help retain moisture. Some of the hardwood mulch over that for ascetics. It builds the soil too but it is pretty compacted as that is where I walk.


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## k0xxx (Oct 27, 2011)

We have a 12x24 building that is uphill from the garden, and this summer we will be adding rain gutters to fill two 375 gallon tanks that will be used to supply water to the garden if needed. We also have a small pond on our property, but it is about 300ft. away and downhill about 8 ft. from the garden. It's not very large, but it is deep and kept water even in last year's severe drought. Our primary goal is to install a solar pump to move the water up the incline to a holding tank, but I am also looking into a human powered (pedal) pump as a back up. We have the materials all ready to put together a well bucket, but it would be for providing drinking carrying water, as carrying water uphill is not a real option given our physical condition. Other than those options, a rain dance is about all that I can come up with...


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

The first year after a total SHTF situation would be the worst. It would probably be wise to spread your plants around the house & out buildings instead of planting a "garden". You could plant them where the rain comes off the roof to minimize the amount of watering that needed to be done. Planting lots of root veggies, like carrots & potatoes, instead of obvious food plants like tomatoes or corn, would add an extra layer of protection. It's amazing the number of folks who wouldn't know a carrot top from a weed. Root veggies are your more calorie dense & better storing veggies anyway. Having enough stored food for at least a year would be key.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

I think you need to grow crops that will grow in your area with as little irrigation as possible. Don't worry about when the collapse will happen. Most likely most people will have died by planting time. I think most people will die in the first 90 days after the power grid goes down and food is no longer transported across the country.


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## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

One of the guys who was part of a govt study on an EMP attack, commented later that 90% of the population would be dead in a year:
Quote:
" * Within a year of that attack, nine out of 10 Americans would be dead, because we can't support a population of the present size in urban centers and the like without electricity," said Frank Gaffney, president of the Center for Security Policy*."

LINK: http://www.shtfplan.com/emergency-p...-9-out-of-10-americans-would-be-dead_05042010

I think an important point there is to realize that almost 80% of the US population lives in cities. 58% live in cities of over 200,000 population. 
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/planning/census_issues/archives/metropolitan_planning/cps2k.cfm

This study was for an EMP attack, which would interrupt transport of food and other essentials. I would NOT want to be living in a city under those circumstances. You can make changes to your life now, or be a refugee later.

It took us about 10 years to get a decent garden spot going on our present place. The ground does not produce well until it has been tended for a while and enriched with proper amendments. If bugging out is the crux of your suvival plan, you are a day late and a dollar short, unless you are somehow joining an established property with current residents who are living the life. Hope is a poor strategy for either birth control or post-SHTF survival.


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

DCcam87 said:


> So I was thinking about this today for a long time and I really couldn't think of a decent answer. I have no one to ask around here where I live so I am coming to you guys/girls for help. Say a disaster/doomsday event did occur, and you have a variety of vegetable seeds available to plant and it is the right time of year to plant. How would you be able to supply enough water to your garden without drawing too much attention to the area that the garden is in? (I know this a pretty broad question but lets say there is no body of water close by, the season is dry, no electricity, and no gas for a vehicle or generator.) I am excited to see what people come up with.


Move to somewhere with reliable rainfall.


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## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

PackerBacker is right. A disaster does not change the basics of growing things. You will need all the advantages you can get, so assure NOW that will be the case. That is the basis of preparedness anyway, to secure advantages for yourself in tough times. 

Unfortunately, Hollywood, TV and popular novels have done a great disservice to anyone trying to learn about self reliance. Too much is made of "exciting" situations, and no time is given to the boring hard work necessary to just get on with life. The daily grind on a farm or homestead does not make good movie footage, but it is what we need to know about. That exciting stuff justs gets badly in the way of trying to support yourself. There is nothing romantic about trying to survive a disaster of whatever kind. It is hard in every way. Seen a lot of that, with local tornadoes, floods, and forest fires, and those were blessed with the rest of the country being intact! When it is bad all over, you are ON YOUR OWN. What you have is all of it, so make sure it is enough to get by. 

Becoming self reliant is a LONG learning curve, so start early.


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## db2469 (Jun 11, 2012)

It may not be glamorous, but the self-reliant life is the authentic life, the rest is just pop culture and unsatisfying materialism...


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

machinist said:


> For us, watering is usually not needed until late July or early August. The past couple years we have had to water a bit earlier due to drought.
> 
> We use mulch, but when we need water, I have a tank set up that collects water from a shed and the workshop roofs. It holds 2,500 gallons but that is minimal when you are watering a large garden. The tank is a plastic Ag tank, 8 feet diameter and 8 feet tall. It holds 3,000 gallons, but due to height constraints, I can only get 2,500 in it from the gutters. I have it set 2 feet deep in the ground on sand, and backfilled around it with sand to avoid any rock punctures. Then, I built a shed over it to keep off the UV from sunlight that degrades plastic FAST. It should last the rest of my life.
> 
> ...


We pay $36 a pound for pipe toabaco, we have rolled our own for past 16yr.s now. Last year it was $29,now its went up.

I still [prefer it to tailor mades,that paper is terrible on those things.Of course its all bad,but store bought packs are the worse.


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## lilmissy0740 (Mar 7, 2011)

DCcam87 said:


> So I was thinking about this today for a long time and I really couldn't think of a decent answer. I have no one to ask around here where I live so I am coming to you guys/girls for help. Say a disaster/doomsday event did occur, and you have a variety of vegetable seeds available to plant and it is the right time of year to plant. How would you be able to supply enough water to your garden without drawing too much attention to the area that the garden is in? (I know this a pretty broad question but lets say there is no body of water close by, the season is dry, no electricity, and no gas for a vehicle or generator.) I am excited to see what people come up with.


Are you washing clothes somewhere? Use your rinse water. I am pondering your question and it got me to thinking. If your scenario that it is dry, no gas, no electric, how do you bath? How do you do dishes? Flush a toilet? Cook? Gee, move to a place with water! Lol. Get a well dug now if you can, even if you don't use it, some kind of water is better than no water.


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## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

We got sort of blindsided with dry weather a couple years ago, and ran out of irrigation water too soon. The garden came out okay, but it was a wake up call. It has made us think harder about efficient ways to water. There is a river just over the hill from us, but it would be a terrible job to haul water form there. That makes me want to consider building a pond. 

Concerning hiding your garden:

I don't think it is very easy to do for most of us. In our case, it is impossible. Maybe the easiest is to let some very tall horseweeds grow around the outside of it. They are very hardy and make good kindling for the woodstove come Fall, if you cut them in time to dry out. 

Other folks I know live in secluded places, but out in the country, EVERYBODY knows what the neighbors are up to. It's a ******* hobby to be a busybody! It's the transients that you want to hide it from, so anything tall, dense and green would work. A big patch of blackberries is also very discouraging to tresspassers, AND, you can eat them!


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

PackerBacker said:


> Move to somewhere with reliable rainfall.


Or learn to garden with the rainfall you get.


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## boomer (Jul 13, 2011)

Go light on the tall dry foilage, including weeds in the fall. Fire is the greater hazard than roaming hordes of cityfolk and will leave you with even less. Mow or borrow a cow or a goat or a large number of chickens to build you a fireguard around anything you may want to have safer. SHTF senarios also generally include NO AVAILABLE INSURANCE.

Prevention is essential for both damage to property and personal injury.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

DCcam87 said:


> Say a disaster/doomsday event did occur, and you have a variety of vegetable seeds available to plant and it is the right time of year to plant.


After working to develop a self sustaining garden for the past ten years. My conclusion is, if you start *"Gardening after the disaster happened"* you will die.

Sorry but that is the reality. Forget about water for a moment.
Do you know what to plant? Do you know what grows well in your environment? When and how to plant each plant? How much does each plant produce? How much do you need to plant to have enough until after next years harvest? How do you preserve can, dry, store and prepare what you grow? How much extra do you need to grow so that you have enough seed to plant next years crop. Willing to bet you life on your answers? Because it does.

Now back to the water and other 1,732 unanswered questions. My wife has always gardened and kept a small family vegetable patch and herbs for cooking. Mostly to supplement our diet. I have assisted as needed. Growing enough to sustain us is a completely different. It was not until we were doing it that we realized all the tools, equipment, knowledge and skills we needed. We are lucky. We can buy any tool or piece of equipment we need. You will not be able to after SHTF. If we need to learn something we can look it up, go to an expert or take a class. After SHTF you won't be able to. If something goes wrong, there is a disease, insect infestation, bad soil, not enough nutrients we can go to an expert get a diagnosis and learn how to solve the problem. After SHTF you won't be able to. The list goes on.

None of that is said to discourage you but to present you with some real world experience and maybe have you rethink your plan. In my honest opinion if you want to survive after all of your stores and preps are depleted. Be self sustaining providing for your own needs. The time to start is now not after SHTF. With luck and honest effort you will be producing your own food by the time SHTF.

If it never hits the fan the worst thing that will happen is you will have no food bill and eating better, healthier, tastier food that you and your family will enjoy and appreciate much more than anything you can pick up at the grocery store.


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## eddy_dvyvan (May 8, 2012)

Everyone has had great tips and points in this thread. I just have 1 thing to add.

Humanmanure! Look up the book and get yourself a copy. Its a good funny read and will make you really think about the way most of us currantly deal with sewerage.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

I ran across a site(dirtdoctor.com I think it was) where Humanure was discussed but didn't go much into detail about the "production" side of it. If it is from you or your own family, I dont see a reason why not to use it.

If it comes from a commercial source(it is available in places), I wouldn't go anywhere near it! Too much a chance of parasites, chemicals and poison contamination, just picture what goes down most peoples drains and you will understand my reservations.

Good suggestion IMO.


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## eddy_dvyvan (May 8, 2012)

Davarm said:


> I ran across a site(dirtdoctor.com I think it was) where Humanure was discussed but didn't go much into detail about the "production" side of it. If it is from you or your own family, I dont see a reason why not to use it.
> 
> If it comes from a commercial source(it is available in places), I wouldn't go anywhere near it! Too much a chance of parasites, chemicals and poison contamination, just picture what goes down most peoples drains and you will understand my reservations.
> 
> Good suggestion IMO.


Very true. I have also heard that its used by commercial farming.....I imagine they add alot of antibiotics and such to make it "safe".......and we all know how good antibiotics are for us lol.

I found an online copy of that book i mentioned. Give the first chapter a read and if you like the style read the rest. Its not a huge book.
http://humanurehandbook.com/contents.html


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

LongRider said:


> After working to develop a self sustaining garden for the past ten years. My conclusion is, if you start *"Gardening after the disaster happened"* you will die.


I agree mostly.

That said. I think humans have a deep rooted instinct that will allow them to produce food. Some will do very well and some will not.


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## nathan (Nov 6, 2008)

You could also build a solar still: which is basically a hole covered by plastic,with arock in the middle.Im sure others could explain it to you better than I,as Ive never actually tried it


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## 8thDayStranger (Jan 30, 2013)

nathan said:


> You could also build a solar still: which is basically a hole covered by plastic,with arock in the middle.Im sure others could explain it to you better than I,as Ive never actually tried it


That would have to be a damn big solar still to get enough water for a garden. Not a very high production system.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

I really do think that Humanure is a great concept, especially with the sawdust toilet, it works great BUT nutrients are really not that hard to come by in most areas, certainly not on our farm. The risk of parasites and disease is very small but still why take a chance that is not necessary. Personally I think it is much better to use it on trees (fruit or nut), grass, or simply let it sit for 5-10 years until all potential pathogens are gone.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

cowboyhermit said:


> , or simply let it sit for 5-10 years until all potential pathogens are gone.


A thorough composting will kill parasites and break down some toxins, heats inside a working compost pile can reach temps of 140+ degrees.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Davarm said:


> A thorough composting will kill parasites and break down some toxins, heats inside a working compost pile can reach temps of 140+ degrees.


Yes, but it is not easy to be 100% sure that every part of the pile (including the outer layer) reaches a high enough temperature. Turning can help but can also make it worse by cross contaminating layers.
It can be done I just don't think it is worth it in most circumstances. We have not used fertilizer on this piece of land and have been exporting food for 100 years and yet have no problem coming up with nutrients. Even if we did there is no reason we couldn't wait 10 years for it, we think long term around here.


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## vegaswhale (Mar 18, 2013)

I am starting out and this thread is great. What type of mulch do you all recommend? Sorry if it is a simple question but I am looking at mulching. Last year I used leaves from an oak tree. They did ok but did not last.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

PackerBacker said:


> I agree mostly.
> 
> That said. I think humans have a deep rooted instinct that will allow them to produce food. Some will do very well and some will not.


Granted people have an incredible will to live. Both good and bad guys a point I try to stress when talking about self defense. Humans being don't just lay down and die like in the movies. That said, will, mind set, determination alone will not provide the time, skills, equipment, knowledge and experience required to produce a self sustaining garden. Sure there will be those who manage scrape together some meager existence through shear determination and fortitude but they will be few and far between. Many have died long lingering deaths from starvation. Entire nations even in modern times have been wiped out from the inability to produce enough food.

My comment is based upon our own experience and that is that being self sustaining is a much more difficult, complex and involved process than throwing some seeds in the ground. As I said with every resource in the world available to use we have not managed it in ten years. Maybe we are dumber and lazier than the average bear or have the worst luck ever but I tend to doubt that. As we seem to be some of the most fortunate people I know. I think it, just is, what it is and that is that it takes some time, effort and experience to become self sustaining. So that the optimum time to begin is now, while we have everything we need to get started. Not after SHTF when we are desperate and our life depends upon success the first time out.


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## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

Oak leaves contain tannic acid which will acidify your soil a bit. They are okay, but be advised you may need some lime with them. Also, dry organic matter needs to be balanced with green organic matter, so maybe add some grass clippings with the oak leaves. 

I use wheat straw, because I can get it cheap and it is a good insulator against hot weather. It does NOT stop weeds, so we use newspaper or cardboard under the straw for that. I add chicken manure in the Fall for a nitrogen source because we have it available. 

Look into what is available to you cheap, and then research what the considerations are for that kind of mulch. Each has pros and cons. Moldy hay can be had free, but contains seeds and may have fungus. Dry matter will want a nitrogen rich additive to help it compost into the soil.


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

Most folks won't be able to garden effectively without irrigation. It's a fact.

The only things that will work are things that worked for the people that inhabited the land you reside 100 years ago. Veggies take a ton of moisture. Grains less so. Grass crops even less. Here is a simple run down. Hotter or colder average conditions dictate needed moisture.But for the most part these apply. 

If your "natural" climate...
Is your average rains above 50"? You will need to be careful to add enough nutrients to the soil. The rain will wash it away. This is a very small area of the country. An inch a week. Common in the northeast, northwest, and around very large bodies of water. The great lakes, gulf coast.
Does it have natural forest with large deciduous trees? You get 40+ inches of rain. You can grow a garden that contains succulents. Or what ever your heart desires. Mulching will help. This is areas just outside of the heavy rainfall regions and on the western side of mountain ranges. It's very small area actually. 
So you have some natural deciduous trees, mixed brush, weeds and grass? 40-35" This is grain and corn. They do well. veggies take special efforts. Deep mulch, careful season planning, a bit of luck so you don't get a drought year.
So you have scrub brush/ mixed brush/ small trees? You get 35"-30" of rain. Look into "back to eden" gardening. This fellow has innovated a good system. Just google it.
You have grass and brush? 30-25" a year. You are at the very limit of plant based agriculture. Think "moo" or "baa". You will be very frustrated, You could likely do ok if you have a source of water and use green houses/hi tunnels to protect your crop so you can grow in the cooler seasons.
You have sage brush/ thorny things... <25". Good luck!


About the only ones that can have good success with garden veggies with minor efforts are the folks in the 40" range. Of course if your in a grain/corn belt. You can grow grain. Most of the land mass of the country is 35-25". Making gardening difficult at best.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

stanb999 said:


> Most folks won't be able to garden effectively without irrigation. It's a fact.
> 
> The only things that will work are things that worked for the people that inhabited the land you reside 100 years ago. Veggies take a ton of moisture. Grains less so. Grass crops even less. Here is a simple run down. Hotter or colder average conditions dictate needed moisture.But for the most part these apply.
> 
> ...


Hold on there a sec, it is not as simple as you make it out. We get less than 20 inches of precipitation on average and have grown vegetables commercially with no irrigation, not tons these days but still some, and for 100 years we have grown almost all of our own. We are more or less in the aspen parklands, check it out and you will see it is no desert.
I don't like posting pictures but will put a non-descript one just to show our garden is not sagebrush.


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

cowboyhermit said:


> Hold on there a sec, it is not as simple as you make it out. We get less than 20 inches of precipitation on average and have grown vegetables commercially with no irrigation, not tons these days but still some, and for 100 years we have grown almost all of our own. We are more or less in the aspen parklands, check it out and you will see it is no desert.
> I don't like posting pictures but will put a non-descript one just to show our garden is not sagebrush.


Likewise the bulk of the small grain produced in this country is produced in areas getting about 20" or so. Most corn is produced on 35" or less.


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## Ezmerelda (Oct 17, 2010)

vegaswhale said:


> I am starting out and this thread is great. What type of mulch do you all recommend? Sorry if it is a simple question but I am looking at mulching. Last year I used leaves from an oak tree. They did ok but did not last.


I shred my junk mail (even the envelopes after I've pulled the plastic windows out), newspapers, circulars, etc. and use it for mulch. As long as it's paper, and not that slick stuff, it'll attract earthworms to your garden. The slick stuff is treated with who knows what, and I don't think it's good for worms.

It also does a beautiful job at holding moisture in the soil. BUT - you do have to pre-moisten it before watering, or the first few moments of water will just run off. (hat tip to the da-n Yankee  - yes, you do need to pre-moisten, then your garden will get the full benefit of the rain!)


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## bigtrain2020 (Mar 20, 2013)

I would guess that a neat, nicely rowed garden would attract more attention. I would plant multiple low lying plants mixed in with each other to look more like a jumble of bushed then a distinguished garden with rows. And for water I would do a few underground 55 gallon drums that collect rain water and use a small hand pump to deliver the water to the garden


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

cowboyhermit said:


> Hold on there a sec, it is not as simple as you make it out. We get less than 20 inches of precipitation on average and have grown vegetables commercially with no irrigation, not tons these days but still some, and for 100 years we have grown almost all of our own. We are more or less in the aspen parklands, check it out and you will see it is no desert.
> I don't like posting pictures but will put a non-descript one just to show our garden is not sagebrush.


My post was very general and I meant to be so. Generally land west of the Mississippi doesn't get enough water for plant based agriculture without irrigation.

Your aspen garden is sheltered I'm sure, deep soil(odd for an alpine environment. Is it one?), you likely have cold temps outside your growing season that keeps the moisture in, and a chilly "relatively" growing season. Or differently, Does the air get dry and 100 degrees for the bulk of the growing season?

Please share what helps with your success! I live where it rains. But I'm sure others have conditions that are near the same and they can learn a lot from you.


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

PackerBacker said:


> Likewise the bulk of the small grain produced in this country is produced in areas getting about 20" or so. Most corn is produced on 35" or less.


Depends on how the precipitation is received. The grain belts aren't the "bulk" of the country it is in fact a small central portion, outside of those regions more rains are needed for a successful crop. Because in the grain belts, they get the rains when the particular grain needs it. The climate is suited to it. Your right in that most of the grain belt is in the lower end of the noted scale, but 40-30 inches is the dry land range. I doubt also that people in the grain belt don't know they can grow the "local" grains. A lot depends on the type of rains. There is a grain suited to most climates and the average rains. Of course these are averages again.

Wet late season/fall, Winter Wheat
Wet early with moderate spring rains Spring wheat
Spring rains.. rye, oats
Spring and summer corn
Wet all year but cool, buckwheat

I'm sure there are more that are suited to other climates... Anyone know of some that works for them?

It also depends on when you dry out. Growing field corn is easy in many parts of the north east. But it will never dry out to avoid risk of mold in most places without driers on the silos. Before someone says... But I see the corn in the north east. A lot of that corn is put into silage for feed. Moisture isn't an issue. So your YMMV. Take the time to learn.

This posting is about survival gardens/vegetables, growing with adversity and absolute need for production. If you try to grow sweet corn where you should be growing root crops, or Wheat where you should be growing oats. You could have issues, or you could get away with it. Depends. Is it worth the risk? Veggies that come in those "survival" seed banks at el will not work without irrigation in most of the country. This is a fact.


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

stanb999 said:


> Your right in that most of the grain belt is in the lower end of the noted scale, but 40-30 inches is the dry land range.


Most small grain is grown without irrigation in much drier areas than 30-40". Iowa gets less than 35" and grows primarily corn and beans.

Small grain can be grown almost everywhere in this country. It's grown in mass where it is because it's to dry to grow corn, for example. I live well within the cornbelt and we only get 35". Small grain is only grown for niche reasons around here



> Veggies that come in those "survival" seed banks at el will not work without irrigation in most of the country. This is a fact.


 That couldn't be farther from fact and is closer to nonsense.


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

stanb999 said:


> Generally land west of the Mississippi doesn't get enough water for plant based agriculture without irrigation.


This is foolish. I don't know where you live but you must be basing your opinion on that region and claiming it to be the same everywhere.



> Less than 15% of U.S. cropland is irrigated


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

PackerBacker said:


> Most small grain is grown without irrigation in much drier areas than 30-40".
> 
> Small grain can be grown almost everywhere in this country. It's grown in mass where it is because it's to dry to grow corn for example. I live well within the cornbelt and we only get 35". Small grain is only grown for niche reasons around here
> 
> That couldn't be farther from fact and is closer to nonsense.


So your in the grain belt. Wisconsin.. 

Did you know your barely 1/3 the way across this country?

Here is an average precipitation map.









P.S. most of the water in the inter-mountain west is at too high of an elevation for good crop growth. It's was also a bit of a wet century. Longer term averages are much less.


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

PackerBacker said:


> This is foolish. I don't know where you live but you must be basing your opinion on that region and claiming it to be the same everywhere.
> *Less than 15% of U.S. cropland is irrigated*


And yet 50+ % of crops are produced on irrigated fields... How can this be?


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

stanb999 said:


> And yet 50+ % of crops are produced on irrigated fields... How can this be?


According to who?


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

stanb999 said:


> So your in the grain belt. Wisconsin..
> 
> Did you know your barely 1/3 the way across this country?


I'm closer to a 1/2 than a 1/3.  What is your point here anyway?


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

PackerBacker said:


> According to who?


http://www.ers.usda.gov/media/884154/eib99_reportsummary.pdf

Irrigated farms accounted for 54.5 percent ($78.3 billion) of the value of all crop products sold and contributed to the farm value of livestock and poultry production through animal forage and feed production.


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

stanb999 said:


> Irrigated farms accounted for 54.5 percent ($78.3 billion) of the value of all crop products sold


That's logical but certainly isn't "50+ % of crops" and has next to nothing to do with what we are talking about here.


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

PackerBacker said:


> I'm closer to a 1/2 than a 1/3.  What is your point here anyway?


No half way is in SD.

My point is you called BS.

Ask yourself this how many preppers have plans to bug out to that huge brown portion of the country? How many have the skills or even know what is needed?

P.S. To folks in the east.
East of the Appalachians can be quite dry during the growing season. The averages include hurricanes... Look for the news articles from the past. You will find that in general you get one real dry year in every 10 or 10% of the time. Learn to plan around this. It might just save you.

Of course, In the north east we have a different and separate issue. We can and do simply get years where it's too cold to grow things well. They happen every 20 years or so in a string of three or four.


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

PackerBacker said:


> That's logical but certainly isn't "50+ % of crops" and has next to nothing to do with what we are talking about here.


Hi value crops are vegetables... Low value are grains, including corn. I'm suggesting it will be difficult for many people to be successful in growing gardens/vegitables across most of the fruited plain.


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

stanb999 said:


> My point is you called BS.


And I am still calling your "facts" BS.


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

stanb999 said:


> Hi value crops are vegetables... Low value are grains, including corn. I'm suggesting it will be difficult for many people to be successful in growing gardens/vegitables across most of the fruited plain.


You are pretty well removed from agriculture aren't you?

You are comparing modern mechanical ag to what we can do post STHF when I presume we will have returned to manual ag or something a lot closer to it than what we have now.

One can sneak out in the spring mud of the western plains and plant a cabbage by hand a lot easier than to get out there with a 300 hp tractor and grain drill. You can also go out and mulch that plant by hand to conserve the moisture. It can be done mechanically but not easily.


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

PackerBacker said:


> And I am still calling your "facts" BS.


So ask yourself this...IS this the view form your porch?

Nebraska









Or this?
Wisconsin


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

PackerBacker said:


> You are pretty well removed from agriculture aren't you?
> 
> You are comparing modern mechanical ag to what we can do post STHF when I presume we will have returned to manual ag or something a lot closer to it than what we have now.
> 
> One can sneak out in the spring mud of the western plains and plant a cabbage by hand a lot easier than to get out there with a 300 hp tractor and grain drill. You can also go out and mulch that plant by hand to conserve the moisture. It can be done mechanically but not easily.


No, I raise my own food for the most part. I Know how hard it can be to have any type of production and variety. Know how much effort it takes to do it by hand. I do some of mine by hand. Not all. I do use a tiller. But if I had to I could switch to no till raised beds. But for now the efforts aren't worth the effort.

So your plan is for cabbages? It will take a ton, literally. At least.
Lets do some math.
1 pound of cabbage is 100 calories.
So per day you need at least 20 pounds just to not lose too much weight.
During your planting/weeding harvest, you need 30 a day. You will be working hard. walking in the mud ect. Right? Lets say your very efficient and can plant in just 2 weeks, weed for 2 weeks, harvest for the same. So your @ 6 weeks of heavy work for your cabbages.

You need 1260 pounds for your planting and tending.
For the rest of the year with cabbage making up just 1/4 of your calories... 
You need around 1600.

For a total of 2860 pounds. Without modern fert and chemicals expect this to be about 1/2 acre under plow. Today the yield could be had made with chemicals in about 1/12 acre.

Summer heat or a dry spell could doom your crop. Any stress will make the insect damage much harder to recover from.

I surely hope your not a family of 4...


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## kappydell (Nov 27, 2011)

Careful use of water covers lots of territory. I gardened in an area that had droughts routinely in late summer, so I (1) planted in wide rows to shade the ground, lessening evaporation; (2) dug water-retention ditches between the wide rows to slow down water running off the footpaths and due to the slope of the hill, until it could soak in; (3) buried perforated tin cans at intervals in the wide beds to facilitate hand watering below the surface; (4) carted grey water down to irrigate the garden; (5) mulched the paths heavily to slow down both soil compaction and the running off of rain. I didn't consider those severe water retention techniques, yet they worked aces. Coupled with planting drought resistant cultivars I had an excellent garden under adverse conditions.


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

stanb999 said:


> Nebraska
> http://bachlab.balbach.net/west03/0826/windlass_camp.jpg[/im]][/quote]
> 
> Does all of "west of the miss" or even all of nebraska look like that? Of course it doesn't. W. nebraska is very similar to here.
> ...


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

PackerBacker said:


> Does all of "west of the miss" or even all of nebraska look like that? Of course it doesn't. W. nebraska is very similar to here.
> 
> You can keep arguing all you wan't but your "facts" have been proven to be BS.
> 
> Cabbage was a mere example mind you.


West Nebraska is drier than east... Geography?
Maybe that is why you thought Wisconsin was in the center of the country?


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

Well, honestly, I will only say my area does not lack for water, period, hard for me to imagine struggling to keep any garden watered. We have a well, but do not have a hand pump, and since we rent this property, I am pretty sure with the one outdoor pipe that has a lift valve on it (still supplied by the well pump that is electric), we would be in for some struggles.

To the inevitable question, no, the owner would not let us put a hand pump in anywhere...she is only holding onto this house to rent till the markets look up and then she is developing this property and I am sure this house will be in her way.

We live above a river, but it is quite the hike down just to get water from that source, our only option in my thinking is to plan ahead and have rain barrels everywhere, use raised beds and mulching a lot to conserve water. I would water by hand to make sure I did not waste my saved water (avoiding a long hike if we had no gas).

Our only other option is that down the slope on this property is an old well, closed in by fencing, that is only 25 feet below the surface. It was used for this house for a long time and was replaced with the well we are on now, which is 160 feet down (yeah figure out how to get the water out of that thing).

If I was trying to keep my planting secret, down that slope behind us, towards the lower well, is where I would plant. The ideal place really, it is behind a fence that is heaped over with blackberry vines, way back into a corner of the property, not noticeable to anyone and I would not make the plantings uniform, so it appeared from a distance it was just overgrown bushes and potential undergrowth plants.

I think "guerrilla" gardening in a sense would be the way to go. If you did not have to do that, then raised beds are best you only have to deal with small amounts of soil by hand, mulch them over for winter, turn it in spring and plant again. My other thoughts are in such circumstances, planting close to home is best if you can, it minimizes your energy used, and you can best monitor your garden in your own backyard. Then I think, if you have the means right now, build a greenhouse so you could grow most inside and have even more control over it all. Used tires for potatoes and tomatoes work well here (helps with our chilly nights we are subject to even in summer).


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## Immolatus (Feb 20, 2011)

A couple of points, most have been said already.
Dont wait until you have to garden, I assume you have at least some experience now. If you dont, get on it.
Learn what grows in your area without irrigation/extra watering. I *never* water my garden. Yes, it limits what I can grow, but I learn the limitations, and since the water I would need for basic necessities wouldnt be incredibly easy to access, I wont be shlepping water for a garden. If you dont have easy access to water, then dont count on growing plants that dont need irrigation. Humans lived for thousands of years without it.
Basically the idea is work with what you have. Its great to do the extra work for plants that require unnatural (to your region, meaning rainfall, but I guess this would apply to fertilizer also but that can be remedied by working the soil, adding compost, etc) means of support, but understand that you couldnt maintain them long term if SHTF. Yes, I see what I did there- working the soil doesnt count as extra work, as long as you arent reliant on an outside source of water.
Humanure? I'm not even going to look into that. Your average person consumes tons of nasty chemicals that I wouldnt put in my garden. You are what you eat, and the average diet is absolute crap. If it has to be treated/sterilized to remove these chemicals, which I'm sure it aint (at least treated to remove the toxins from eating dorito's, coke, MCD, frozen dinners, etc) then youre paying for...what exactly?
Oh yeah, and your own crap is free, so start collecting it! _*shudders*_


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## ContinualHarvest (Feb 19, 2012)

jeff47041 said:


> It seems like catching water in barrels will be some peoples ony choice. Living near a river, stream, or lake would be important.
> I have a well, a pond, and within an eigth of a mile from a large creek that runs all year so I think I'm good in that department.
> I'm ostly concerned with how I would till the soil if there is no gas available. A hoe just isn't gonna get it


No till gardening is becoming more popular. There are plenty of information sources in no till gardening methods and permaculture on the web.


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## ContinualHarvest (Feb 19, 2012)

Some of the best ways to grow food is to find and cultivate local, native edible plants. Many of the sheeple wouldn't know which native plants are edible or not. Make your garden look natural, like a forest garden or a bramble pile. No neat rows of staple crops. Those are dead giveaways to scavengers. You can use permaculture methods to reduce the need for watering. I'll try to put up some sources later on or you can just look it up.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

stanb999 said:


> My post was very general and I meant to be so. Generally land west of the Mississippi doesn't get enough water for plant based agriculture without irrigation.


We live far west of the Mississippi and have more than adequate water to produce most anything we want. Seems like a pretty presumptuous statement



bigtrain2020 said:


> I would guess


Meaning you don't produce your own food? If you wait to try to do so after SHTF you may find that your guesses can lead to death by starvation. Ideas are best proven long before SHTF.



bigtrain2020 said:


> And for water I would do a few underground 55 gallon drums that collect rain water and use a small hand pump to deliver the water to the garden


Do you do this now? Reason I ask is that sounds like a lot of man hours on the pump to grow enough food to live off of. Maybe you have a pump far more efficient than any I have seen or used?


ContinualHarvest said:


> Some of the best ways to grow food is to find and cultivate local, native edible plants.


It may be more productive to harvest native plants in their natural habitat being sure to not strip the area bare, leave enough for the critters and to propagate. As an example Huckleberries don't do well being cultivated.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

Deleted duplicate post


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

stanb999 said:


> West Nebraska is drier than east...


Sure it is. But all of nebraska is west of the Miss where you ignorantly state that:



> Generally land west of the Mississippi doesn't get enough water for plant based agriculture without irrigation.


And generally, NE is wet enough for plant based ag without irrigation.



> Maybe that is why you thought Wisconsin was in the center of the country?


I never said it was the center. Nor was I commenting on _WI_ but rather where _I_ was. I said I was closer the half than a third. In reality it's about center between those two.

I know you think you are proving your point here but you are really doing just the opposite.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Sorry if this is not helpful to the thread but I can't help myself.
You have to know that a term like "PLANT BASED AGRICULTURE" comes out of some place outside of the reality of farming, most likely an overpayed university professor or a sterile research facility.

ALL AGRICULTURE IS PLANT BASED, this is a fundamental reality of our existence.


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

LongRider, huckleberries, YES!! Love those, gotta get some this summer, missed it somehow last year, got up Mount Hood and they were already gone or dropped, sort of early.

However...our neighbors house is up for sale, seems to not be selling (I think the bank owns it, as in foreclosed on) and their two large rows of blueberries will be up for grabs, I think we will be picking those to make sure they don't go to waste.


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## seanallen (Nov 13, 2012)

I have acres and acres of wild huckleberries growing around me.


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## cqp33 (Apr 2, 2012)

I have land in east tn and intend to attempt self sufficiency when I retire from 20years of service in the us navy this August! I will start by preparing Feds this year, as in making raised beds 4' X 20-30' long. I will use stone and set them about 30" deep and mortar them like a stone wall, then I dig to get down 12" into the existing soil and mix the topsoil with mulch. I already have a mulch pile that is about 6' tall and 15x40 feet in size, this is from sawdust, grass clippings and leaves collected from my lawn mower bagger and is 2 years mature.
I will start a new additional compost pile upon arrival. 
Now every so often we are faced with drought conditions in east tn, so I am going to set up a rain collection barrel around 500 gallons. I am also considering setting up a raised (15-20) feet water barrel (plastic of course) around 500 gallons to set up above my garden area and using a solar powered pump to fill that tank from the rain barrel or to be able to use the pond if needed. (Pond is spring fed and always full).
What do any of you see for flaws in my plan?


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## jeff47041 (Jan 5, 2013)

cqp33 said:


> I have land in east tn and intend to attempt self sufficiency when I retire from 20years of service in the us navy this August! I will start by preparing Feds this year, as in making raised beds 4' X 20-30' long. I will use stone and set them about 30" deep and mortar them like a stone wall, then I dig to get down 12" into the existing soil and mix the topsoil with mulch. I already have a mulch pile that is about 6' tall and 15x40 feet in size, this is from sawdust, grass clippings and leaves collected from my lawn mower bagger and is 2 years mature.
> I will start a new additional compost pile upon arrival.
> Now every so often we are faced with drought conditions in east tn, so I am going to set up a rain collection barrel around 500 gallons. I am also considering setting up a raised (15-20) feet water barrel (plastic of course) around 500 gallons to set up above my garden area and using a solar powered pump to fill that tank from the rain barrel or to be able to use the pond if needed. (Pond is spring fed and always full).
> What do any of you see for flaws in my plan?


I have a 1000 gallon tank that I was planning to raise approx. 15' in the air to have gravity fed water. I talked with a few other carpenters and we decided the best way would be that the 4 legs be angled out at the bottom (Meaning, if the top is a 10'x10' square, the bottom is 15'x15' or so) to help the 8 thousand lbs of weight resist wind better to keep from falling over.

I didn't get to it this past year, but still considering it.

Just thought I'd throw that your way. 500 gallons of water will weigh about 4000 lbs. Lot of weight 15-20' in the air on a narrow stand.

I was actually planning to put a 12'x12' flat roof above the tank, tapered toward the top opening, so it could catch rain water when possible, with an overflow pipe going down to the lower tank. (Would be very useful over winter and spring here)


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

HoppeEL4 said:


> LongRider, huckleberries, YES!! Love those, gotta get some this summer, missed it somehow last year, got up Mount Hood and they were already gone or dropped, sort of early.


Me too, found out my wife could get as much as $30 a jar for her huckleberry jam. We have not sold a single one, though we give some away to people I really like. They did ripen early last year. But we still had gallons left over from the year before. We have both red and purple Huckleberries more of each than one person can pick in 2 forty hour weeks. I know because I tried one year, so now we let friends come up and get some if they want and they can make their own freaking jam.

My blueberries have not started to produce yet. Think I may have to plant some in another location



seanallen said:


> I have acres and acres of wild huckleberries growing around me.


Way cool huh, since they can't be cultivated, makes us especially blessed.



cqp33 said:


> What do any of you see for flaws in my plan?


Sounds like a pretty solid plan, as Jeff said be sure your stands are solidly built. As you progress your plans will change as your experience with the land grows but it sounds like you have solid foundation to build from


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## cqp33 (Apr 2, 2012)

Thanks for the advice jeff47041 and the words of encouragement LongRider. 
Jeff I have considered the same thing as in making my own little water tower, however there are some pretty serious storms that come through my area in east TN so I have decided to put the water collection tank on top of a hill above where my raised beds will be going, maybe even setting it on a concrete slab. I have heard that sand is better though but to make sure to keep the tank from freezing, so if i need to keep the tank from freezing then burying it would be an option. I could just drain it once the growing season is over with and refill it when the rain comes in the spring or from the pond. I would want to hide the tank though so I was thinking of building a shed/pole barn where the high point is, that way a tank won't be just sitting out in the field to spark curiousity and it would be protected from the sun as well, I hear UV does wonders on large plastic tanks!

LongRider - You are 100% correct, as I learn more through reading my plans have changed so what you speak of makes perfect sense! A plan is just that, A PLAN! Once I move into the execution phase I am sure things in THE PLAN will be modified along the way and in a constant flux so to speak! I have done a lot of reading, have planted and maintained several gardens in various parts of the country/world throughout my Navy career and look forward to being back home where the fruits of my labor will be permanent vice temporary! I look at all the gardens I have had as learning experiences, an education that you can't put a price on!
I am constantly learning new skills, recently I learned to weld both arc and TIG, I have learned to lay tile and stone masonry! Learning new skills that will help me throughout life is fulfilling to me! I don't like to pay someone to do something I am perfectly capable of doing myself!


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

cqp33 said:


> I am constantly learning new skills, recently I learned to weld both arc and TIG, I have learned to lay tile and stone masonry! Learning new skills that will help me throughout life is fulfilling to me! I don't like to pay someone to do something I am perfectly capable of doing myself!


Same here seems I am always taking a new course or learning to do something new. Think I may graduate sometime after they plant me.


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

seanallen and LongRider, I found out some interesting facts about huckleberries (also known as bilberry) before, lost my page I saved (transferred computers), but it gave some good information about it's uses and benefits. Blueberries are good for you, no doubt, but the wild versions have more to them I believe. Some claim around here that they can be cultivated, but the only ones here grow sub-alpine and we are in the lower elevations, so I am unsure how well they would produce down here.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

HoppeEL4 said:


> seanallen and LongRider, I found out some interesting facts about huckleberries (also known as bilberry) before, lost my page I saved (transferred computers), but it gave some good information about it's uses and benefits. Blueberries are good for you, no doubt, but the wild versions have more to them I believe. Some claim around here that they can be cultivated, but the only ones here grow sub-alpine and we are in the lower elevations, so I am unsure how well they would produce down here.


I know we cleared some land and tried to relocate some Huckleberry plants. None of them survived the transplant. When I went to research to find out why, is when I read that Huckleberry have never been successfully cultivated. Though there may be rare exception here or there it has not been done on a commercial level. Which is why they can demand such a high price for Huckleberry jams and the like.


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## Toffee (Mar 13, 2012)

LongRider said:


> I know we cleared some land and tried to relocate some Huckleberry plants. None of them survived the transplant. When I went to research to find out why, is when I read that Huckleberry have never been successfully cultivated. Though there may be rare exception here or there it has not been done on a commercial level. Which is why they can demand such a high price for Huckleberry jams and the like.


It may not be done commercially, but they do sell the plants. You almost have to plant them now, because people will go through and tie a chain around the base of a plant and haul it out.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Like a lot of things with common names "huckleberry" can actually refer to many different, even unrelated plants, this can be a source of confusion as to how/where they grow. Unfortunately relatively few people use the Latin names but they are the only way to really know you are talking about the same species/subspecies.


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## seanallen (Nov 13, 2012)

cqp33 said:


> Thanks for the advice jeff47041 and the words of encouragement LongRider.
> Jeff I have considered the same thing as in making my own little water tower, however there are some pretty serious storms that come through my area in east TN so I have decided to put the water collection tank on top of a hill above where my raised beds will be going, maybe even setting it on a concrete slab. I have heard that sand is better though but to make sure to keep the tank from freezing, so if i need to keep the tank from freezing then burying it would be an option. I could just drain it once the growing season is over with and refill it when the rain comes in the spring or from the pond. I would want to hide the tank though so I was thinking of building a shed/pole barn where the high point is, that way a tank won't be just sitting out in the field to spark curiousity and it would be protected from the sun as well, I hear UV does wonders on large plastic tanks!
> 
> LongRider - You are 100% correct, as I learn more through reading my plans have changed so what you speak of makes perfect sense! A plan is just that, A PLAN! Once I move into the execution phase I am sure things in THE PLAN will be modified along the way and in a constant flux so to speak! I have done a lot of reading, have planted and maintained several gardens in various parts of the country/world throughout my Navy career and look forward to being back home where the fruits of my labor will be permanent vice temporary! I look at all the gardens I have had as learning experiences, an education that you can't put a price on!
> I am constantly learning new skills, recently I learned to weld both arc and TIG, I have learned to lay tile and stone masonry! Learning new skills that will help me throughout life is fulfilling to me! I don't like to pay someone to do something I am perfectly capable of doing myself!


As far as that lonely tank in a field goes: why not heap dirt all around it with sloped sides? A tractor with a box blade could have it done in an afternoon.


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## seanallen (Nov 13, 2012)

Im thinking my next garden project is gonna be raised beds with a twist. Instead of wood boards, why not rows of cinder blocks? Tiller a row 30' long then lay a level row of blocks on top of it. Fill with amended soil. Drip systems would be great for this. Sandy base soil allows for drainage so no soggy soil. Figure squash, tomatoes, and many other semi bush types would do good.


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

LongRider said:


> We live far west of the Mississippi and have more than adequate water to produce most anything we want. Seems like a pretty presumptuous statement


I didn't say all areas in the west. I said the vast majority. 
In fact most of the west and deep south will be uninhabitable without modern convenience.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

stanb999 said:


> I didn't say all areas in the west. I said the vast majority.
> In fact most of the west and deep south will be uninhabitable without modern convenience.


Again a pretty presumptuous statement IMO. There were 500 Nations of Indigenous People that lived on the continent for tens of thousands of year without modern conveniences. The richest nations as defined by abundant food and resources are in the west.

If the grid goes down and the infrastructure collapses I expect we will keep pretty much the same standard of living, quality of life, comforts and luxuries that we enjoy now for the remainder of our lives


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

This is an exert from University of Idaho:

Western huckleberries belong to the genus Vaccinium.
Their flowers and fruit resemble those of highbush and
lowbush blueberries, which are also Vaccinium species.
Western huckleberries, however, are in a different taxonomic
section (Myrtillus) than
highbush and lowbush blueberries
(Cyanococcus). The
primary difference is that
huckleberries produce
single berries in the axils
of leaves on new shoots.
Highbush and lowbush
blueberries develop clusters of
berries on 1-year-old wood,
producing greater yields
than do huckleberries.


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

LongRider said:


> Again a pretty presumptuous statement IMO. There were 500 Nations of Indigenous People that lived on the continent for tens of thousands of year without modern conveniences. The richest nations as defined by abundant food and resources are in the west.
> 
> If the grid goes down and the infrastructure collapses I expect we will keep pretty much the same standard of living, quality of life, comforts and luxuries that we enjoy now for the remainder of our lives


#1
The continent is bigger than the USA. 
Most didn't live in the "west" part of what is now the USA. They are dry desert regions. Till forced to do so by the white man..
Never heard to the trail of tears?
They only prospered on the prairie after the introduction of the horse. A white mans tool.

#2
Good for you!


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

What'd the horse do? Piss on the crops?


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## farmers (Jul 28, 2012)

I have farm land west of the Mississippi, grains and gardens are grown very well. With much abundance. There are many states that can grow grains in abundance west of the Mississippi.
Seed companies contract with farmers to grow and produce the seeds for that region. In different parts of the same state. Pioneer is a large producer of seeds. There are others also. For each state and there regions the seeds are specific for that area.
The Missouri River runs threw these states. 2nd largest river in US. It has made the soil very fertile. They don't need the large amount of rain like you do.
When you see a harvest, grain bins full, semi grain trucks being loaded one after another. co-op closing because they are full. Grain being dumped on large sheets of plastic on the ground. The land west is good dirt.


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## Toffee (Mar 13, 2012)

The Inland Northwest grows huge amounts of grain. We have rape, wheat, mustard, etc. And a lot of the wheat you buy is Montana winter wheat. There are even huge test fields all over north Idaho where they are working to make wheat even better.


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

farmers said:


> I have farm land west of the Mississippi, grains and gardens are grown very well. With much abundance. There are many states that can grow grains in abundance west of the Mississippi.
> Seed companies contract with farmers to grow and produce the seeds for that region. In different parts of the same state. Pioneer is a large producer of seeds. There are others also. For each state and there regions the seeds are specific for that area.
> The Missouri River runs threw these states. 2nd largest river in US. It has made the soil very fertile. They don't need the large amount of rain like you do.
> When you see a harvest, grain bins full, semi grain trucks being loaded one after another. co-op closing because they are full. Grain being dumped on large sheets of plastic on the ground. The land west is good dirt.


The point was and is how do you plan to harvest that grain without modern machines after shtf?

Teams of men with scythes? Drought, hail, wind storm. You starve. Pioneers to the west had access to wild game, gardened on the best spots, Knew how to survive. They ate simple, starved in winter, died early and often. It was at best a huge struggle. Until power equipment.

I'm not saying survival isn't possible. But for 99% it might as well be.

What makes you think my soil isn't good? I have sandy loam, 45% sand, 45% silt, 10% clay, If you were to make potting soil... You would add organics. That's it.


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

All the "your just wrong" Bla, Bla, Bla.... And Like I said water west of the Mississippi is sketchy.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

You know stanb999, you are coming across as extremely closed minded, I don't know where you got some of these ideas but they are incorrect.
Do you have experience in any of these areas? People who DO are saying it is entirely possible and you are telling them they are wrong.

You say "Pioneers to the west had access to wild game, gardened on the best spots, Knew how to survive. They ate simple, starved in winter, died early and often. It was at best a huge struggle. Until power equipment."
Once again I will say our family has farmed in an area north of Montana with less than 20" of rain for over 100 years. When we started we did not use any petroleum products and yet we exported massive amounts of food, built our buildings out of logs, built roads (still have a animal pulled scraper), heated with wood, kept up with education and religion which included building the churches and schools. Maybe we ate what you consider "simple" but there was no shortage of food, we never "starved in the winter" or died early, some of my relatives lived to be 100 in this situation.

To say that "In fact most of the west and deep south will be uninhabitable without modern convenience." is simply a ridiculous statement when looked at rationally, history, science and practical experience prove this to be untrue.

Then you come out with the drought monitor map  Do you not understand what a drought is?


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

farmers said:


> I have farm land west of the Mississippi, grains and gardens are grown very well. With much abundance. There are many states that can grow grains in abundance west of the Mississippi.
> Seed companies contract with farmers to grow and produce the seeds for that region. In different parts of the same state. Pioneer is a large producer of seeds. There are others also. For each state and there regions the seeds are specific for that area.
> The Missouri River runs threw these states. 2nd largest river in US. It has made the soil very fertile. They don't need the large amount of rain like you do.
> When you see a harvest, grain bins full, semi grain trucks being loaded one after another. co-op closing because they are full. Grain being dumped on large sheets of plastic on the ground. The land west is good dirt.





Toffee said:


> The Inland Northwest grows huge amounts of grain. We have rape, wheat, mustard, etc. And a lot of the wheat you buy is Montana winter wheat. There are even huge test fields all over north Idaho where they are working to make wheat even better.


WTH would you 2 know.


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

cowboyhermit said:


> Then you come out with the drought monitor map  *Do you not understand what a drought is?*


Must have missed university that day.


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

cowboyhermit said:


> To say that "In fact most of the west and deep south will be uninhabitable without modern convenience." is simply a ridiculous statement when looked at rationally, history, science and practical experience prove this to be untrue.
> 
> Then you come out with the drought monitor map  Do you not understand what a drought is?


Most of the areas in the south didn't have large numbers of people till the invention of A/C.
Most of the west without irrigation on a huge scale is poor for agriculture at best. It is simply the case. Tell me what is the recommended dry land AU for your area? Is it 4.1 like mine? Why not?

Google it up the west has had large areas of "drought" for the last ten years. I knowing history, believe that the last 100 years have been very wet in the west. Up wards of two times the real average. 500 year droughts are in fact the norm. Are you prepared?

Paleoclimatologists can tell you more than just GW non-sense.

Here read up a bit.
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/drought/drght_home.html


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

Stanb999.....I presume you live east of the Mississippi? If so, then you have just proven those of us who live out west here right about some east coasters. Have you been out here at all, ever?

There are few spots that would be inhabitable without modern help, places in the very lowest areas of the desert southwest (the areas that currently depend completely on dams to get them the water they need). Other than that, there are plenty of places that would be completely habitable, and quite livable. Central California has plenty of water from the Sierras (I am sure wells and aquifers along with numerous rivers), and their soil is very fertile, Idaho and Montana, well lets not even argue of those, highly productive soils from north to south.

Did you know almost all of your pears, apples and cherries come from Washington and Oregon? Berries...they come from use too (as a kid I grew up picking those berries, long before machines were used to shake the berries off (however strawberries, to my knowledge are still hand picked). Potatoes, Idaho and Oregon ("Ore-Ida" brand). Oregon and Washington produce huge amounts of "spring wheat" (aka: all purpose flour), which was once harvested by animal pulled combines (something my great-grandfather did in Central Washington).

Eastern Oregon is much more than what people think it is, and plenty of cattle ranches there, no need for machines for that, wheat, and watermelons. Western Oregon, wet, fertile soil, water in exceeding abundance, same for Western Washington. 

So this "drought" out west you were referring to was actually in the Midwest where the Mississippi is located, it affected corn, which was mainly being grown for feed purposes. I know plenty of people here in the west who grow their own feed corn.

Let's see, we do eggs, poultry, fish farming (along coastal areas and in larger river bodies) fishing off the Washington, Oregon and California coasts, crab too. Plenty of shell fish...wild game (I have deer who stay in my back field almost year round, deer are as abundant here as squirrels are elsewhere).

No offense intended to those in the east, however we do just fine out here without the assistance of the east coast establishment (which more than incudes Washington DC!!). 

It feels with your statements that you have never been west of the Mississippi. I won't mock you or be snarky other than just to say when it comes to food, we supply more to the east right now, than they supply to us. This was even happening before mechanism of the food industry. So what will happen to the east when they are cut off from us and can't get the foods we have been growing out here? Seems those citified people in the east are going to suffer more than us out here.


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## OHprepper (Feb 21, 2012)

Wow this thread is one long piss1ng contest.....


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

OHprepper said:


> Wow this thread is one long piss1ng contest.....


That's one form of irrigation. :teehee:


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

I agree that this thread got derailed but when people say things that are incorrect it needs to be addressed at some point. 
It is not a contest on my part because I respect what others are doing, if stanb999, or anyone else is growing their own food that is great but don't tell me that what we have been doing for over a century (in this particular spot) is not possible.
I agree completely that people should look at the historical realities of the area where they plan to live, we have ties to this general area that go back much more than 100 years. I always think it is funny when people say that "This is the worst ___ in 50 years, or 100 years. That means we should EXPECT conditions every 50 or 100 years. 500 years is not that far back to look.
BTW stanb999, did you read your own source? http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/drought/drght_james.html 
Droughts are not a phenomenon exclusive to the west.


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

cowboyhermit said:


> I agree that this thread got derailed but when people say things that are incorrect it needs to be addressed at some point.
> It is not a contest on my part because I respect what others are doing, if stanb999, or anyone else is growing their own food that is great but don't tell me that what we have been doing for over a century (in this particular spot) is not possible.
> I agree completely that people should look at the historical realities of the area where they plan to live, we have ties to this general area that go back much more than 100 years. I always think it is funny when people say that "This is the worst ___ in 50 years, or 100 years. That means we should EXPECT conditions every 50 or 100 years. 500 years is not that far back to look.
> BTW stanb999, did you read your own source? http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/drought/drght_james.html
> Droughts are not a phenomenon exclusive to the west.


Yep, We experienced one last year. It didn't rain for a whole 6 weeks. Even had to water the garden. It was terrible. Made cutting hay easy tho and we did only water the one time. From the hand pump well, 10 gallons at a time. Ton of work I can't imagine doing that every year.


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

HoppeEL4 said:


> Stanb999.....I presume you live east of the Mississippi? If so, then you have just proven those of us who live out west here right about some east coasters. Have you been out here at all, ever?
> 
> There are few spots that would be inhabitable without modern help, places in the very lowest areas of the desert southwest (the areas that currently depend completely on dams to get them the water they need). Other than that, there are plenty of places that would be completely habitable, and quite livable. Central California has plenty of water from the Sierras (I am sure wells and aquifers along with numerous rivers), and their soil is very fertile, Idaho and Montana, well lets not even argue of those, highly productive soils from north to south.
> 
> ...


My fruit comes from my trees. Except grapes... The little guy (5 years) needs grapes.

I did say most of the west and did exclude the PNW west of the mountains.

As far as garden vegetable production. Nothing beats California desert. :gaah: The next most productive area in the country is in Pennsylvania. The center of it being Lancaster Co. When the pumps stop Cali is done. Pa is productive without irrigation.


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## Toffee (Mar 13, 2012)

For one Stan, you're going to have to be more specific than "the mountains" as there are numerous mountain ranges here.
For two, there are multiple Native American tribes that lived in this area and never had to move, relocate, etc. They lived here year-round.
Back to the OP though, I think mulching would be the biggest thing. Rain barrels are also important and if you had a pong and a long hose, you could easily fill your empty containers just as you would siphon gas through a hose.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

stanb999 said:


> Yep, We experienced one last year. It didn't rain for a whole 6 weeks. Even had to water the garden. It was terrible. Made cutting hay easy tho and we did only water the one time. From the hand pump well, 10 gallons at a time. Ton of work I can't imagine doing that every year.


So how did that 6 weeks without rain stack up against the historical droughts on the eastern part of the continent as per the link?

"Nothing beats California desert. The next most productive area in the country is in Pennsylvania. The center of it being Lancaster Co. When the pumps stop Cali is done. Pa is productive without irrigation. " More blanket statements that have very little truth or point.


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

It's pure humor at this point.


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

cowboyhermit said:


> So how did that 6 weeks without rain stack up against the historical droughts on the eastern part of the continent as per the link?
> 
> "Nothing beats California desert. The next most productive area in the country is in Pennsylvania. The center of it being Lancaster Co. When the pumps stop Cali is done. Pa is productive without irrigation. " More blanket statements that have very little truth or point.


Check this out. Is shows the productivity of land. It will teach a bit. Focus on your land specifically... Don't post it. Ospec But post the average. If you would. My land is the very top of the hill, I have thin soils, but they are technically perfect. So I do good.

Also if you can find it look to central Lancaster co. PA. It averages 9 AU as dry pasture. Yes that is 9 head of cattle per acre. What a pile of crap that would make.. Imagine a 10000 acre ranch.... It's still common for farms to be <100 acres and provide a family income... Not a high one. But farmers were never well paid.

http://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/WebSoilSurvey.aspx

Drought scale. We were -8" in rain. Stunning if you average 25. If you average 50... Well I'm at the top of the ridge(the very top). The puddles dried out.  It's drought when we don't get an inch a week. They even bring it up on TV. The Long term trend is for Areas in the east will dry and revert to desert. It will happen as the next ice age freezes the great lakes for good. Approx 1000-1500 years. Not a big worry.

Here is a fun thing to try. Take a 5 gallon "homer" pail. Set it up in the middle of the yard. Away from anything. Without the lid. How long till it over flows? For me it would be about 3 1/2 months.


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

Lets get back to my original posting...

With special efforts you can garden most anywhere. Most of the land west of the Mississippi is to dry for garden abundance without irrigation. A few pockets here and there are ok. But the point stands. Colorado has huge cattle ranches with irrigation, Idaho grows potatoes with irrigation, Washington grows fruit with irrigation, California grows garden vegetables with irrigation. Yes, they grow millions of tons. The land is amazingly productive, with irrigation. Without it.... Grain production isn't gardening. Cattle isn't gardening. Fruit trees aren't gardening. Yes they are all great additions. One thing lost in this conversation is if you can garden, you can do the rest. If you can't garden without extra efforts. You can do other things. I suggest you look into it. The OP was about gardening.

How many of the plants in a "survival seed bank" or normal mail order seeds will do well for you without irrigation? That was my point. My point is to think outside the box for your food production. FYI most garden vegetables don't work here well at all. My growing season is too cold and short for most common vegetables 3 out of 5 years. Too short for tomatoes, peppers, and corn. But root crops grow with ease and abundance. Bacillus and greens grow in the mid summer "heat". Potatoes are a weed(any tiny piece that stays in the ground will sprout again the following year. I put my efforts to what works... Easy. It takes time and effort to learn this. Many folks come here and think it's adequate to purchase seeds and never actually do it. Think they will produce the tons of food needed with a few raised beds. They are "learning" to produce food by container gardening. They "plan". The old add age "failing to plan is a plan to fail" is just half of it. You need information, experience, and hard work to make it happen. It will at best be a struggle. Producing what grows naturally will require hard efforts to make enough. Your food will be boring. It will be plain. You may just survive the transition.

Sorry for suggesting folks grow what produces easily and that they make the best use of their time and land. For hoping they would have an easier transition to a Post SHTF world. Ignore the reality that growing your own food is a ton of work and how it will take all your time and then some. Even now with all the modern machines and tools available it is beyond the ability of most. Place efforts to the unproductive... See how it goes.


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

When in a hole quit digging.

Doubling down on your nonsense isn't going to help.


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

PackerBacker said:


> When in a hole quit digging.
> 
> Doubling down on your nonsense isn't going to help.


So what % of your food do you produce on your land? 25%, 50%, 75%.... 2%

Post some pics of your gardens and your livestock. How many chickens? How many cattle? How many tons of feed do you make for them?
Do you even cut your own wood for heat? 
What have you produced from your land this month? In the last 6? In the last year?


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## haley4217 (Dec 16, 2012)

DCcam87 said:


> So I was thinking about this today for a long time and I really couldn't think of a decent answer. I have no one to ask around here where I live so I am coming to you guys/girls for help. Say a disaster/doomsday event did occur, and you have a variety of vegetable seeds available to plant and it is the right time of year to plant. How would you be able to supply enough water to your garden without drawing too much attention to the area that the garden is in? (I know this a pretty broad question but lets say there is no body of water close by, the season is dry, no electricity, and no gas for a vehicle or generator.) I am excited to see what people come up with.


I've been lurking in the background of this thread for the last week and have been waiting for the posters to get their points made as I think this is a very important issue that any prepper should be thinking about and reading.

I've been preping for a SHTF scenario from a gardening standpoint for more than four years now. What I believe is very important for anyone to understand is that you just don't decide one day I want to grow a sustainable garden, walk out, put some seeds in the ground, water them and live happily ever after. Stanb999 has had some very valid points. You really have to take some time to practice, understand and develop a knowledge of what will grow in your area.... More on that in a second.

But, I don't agree with a nixing of a survival garden in areas where rain fall is less than optimum. I live in dry West Texas, we've had drought like conditions, according to the USDA, for several years. But, if we get 7 - 9 inches of rain in a year we are able to sustain vegetative growth with no problem. It's not horn of plenty type growth that is going to feed a nation, but we can sustain the growth of vegetation that is necessary to feed ourselves. Take that same level of rain and move it 400 miles east and the world would look like it's coming to an end. I lived in the Houston area for a long time and if we didn't get about 2 or 3 inches of rain a month then plants and trees started to suffer and die.

Two growing seasons ago in a nine month period of the spring, summer and fall I recorded a total of .13 inches of rain. Pay attention that wasn't thirteen inches it was 13 hundreths of an inch. I had one of the best gardens that I have ever produced. Yes Stanb999 I did irrigate. But by this time I had developed the tilth in my soil to the point that it could takeup and retain water. So the .13 of rain was used to it's fullest extent. Additionally, I reduced my water output dramatically by using 1/2 gallon per hour dripper irrigation. Basically, my 40 foot rows of tomatoes and peppers were each consuming about 20 gallons of water per day, three times per week and the plants were thriving and growing. I also learned the importance from a water standpoint that mulching is. When the plants were large enough to shade the ground at the roots, my three day per week watering was cut back to one time per week.

Meerkat said very early in this thread. "Another thing to consider is to try and keep your soil pliable and healthy." This is very important. For anyone who is considering a garden as part of your preperation plan, start now. No matter the soil, you are going to spend several seasons getting organic matter, minerals and biologial acitivty growing in your soil. Without these, your water consumption, work, and production will probably not make your garden a successful SHTF source of food.

Finally, as Stanb999 said you have to understand what will grow in your area, how to produce it, evaluate the labor costs for the food production and know how to harvest it and re-seed. From that, let me tell you about last years test which was a failure success. I tried Sweet Potatoes. They are in my point very labor intensive to dig in the fall so I planted them in barrels. The failure part of this was that my soil and being confined in barrels is too compacted for a sweet potato to grow large enough to be viable as a source of food. The sucess part of this is that the plant it self, i.e. the leaves grows wonderfully in the barrel and in this climate. The leaves of the sweet potato plant is an excellent source of minerals and very good in salads or as a green vegetable. So, while I might not be able to produce a work efficient, water efficient potato, I can produce a plant that can be eaten. The experiment continues to see how long the tubers will last if I don't disturb them in the barrel to remain viable to make slips for a following years planting.

IMHO, gardening when done right with plenty of planning and preperation can be a viable form of producing food for a family or even a small group in a SHTF situation in just about any local.


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## haley4217 (Dec 16, 2012)

Meerkat said:


> Another thing to consider is to try and keep your soil pliable and healthy.
> 
> If you use chemicle fertilizers you'll be in serious trouble when you run out. It destroys the soil. So if you have to go to compost or organics to enrich soil,it will be hard to get back the natural bacteria the chemicles killed.


This is what I was discussing in the previous post. You do have to study and understand soil if you are going to be sucessful in a SHTF garden. It is very important to improve the tilth of the soil, and understand this can take sometime to do. Start now, don't wait until the SHTF.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

stanb999, While you say your soil is "technically perfect" you need VERY consistent moisture in order to have success with that much sand in the mix. Our soil has much better water retention characteristics which might account for your incorrect assumptions on the success of our agriculture.
So you reference 500 year drought cycles in the west as a reason gardening will not work there but when your own source talks about MAJOR multiyear droughts in the east in the past few centuries it is funny and not something to worry about

To your rather rude question
"So what % of your food do you produce on your land? 25%, 50%, 75%.... 2%"
The property that I normally refer to on this forum, that we have farmed organically for over 100 years, originally without any petroleum, is just a small fraction of our operation. However on it alone we produce about 5000% of our food, in a mix of garden crops, livestock products, and field crops. This is 99% without irrigation in an area with less than 20" precipitation. This is my job and I am not saying anyone else should try to grow more than they need unless they want to.

haley4217 makes some great points in a constructive manner.


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

stanb999 said:


> So what % of your food do you produce on your land? 25%, 50%, 75%.... 2%
> 
> Post some pics of your gardens and your livestock. How many chickens? How many cattle? How many tons of feed do you make for them?
> Do you even cut your own wood for heat?
> What have you produced from your land this month? In the last 6? In the last year?


What would that prove?

I obviously can't do any of that.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Just one more correction that I think is VERY important, grazing calculators and such can be complicated and it can be difficult to understand the carrying capacity of a particular acreage.

stanb999 said "Also if you can find it look to central Lancaster co. PA. It averages 9 AU as dry pasture. Yes that is 9 head of cattle per acre. What a pile of crap that would make.."
This is very misleading if not in fact false. You could run 9 head of cattle or the equivalent in other animals for *1 month* or 1 head for 9 months. 
This thread was about gardening though.


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

Stan just to let you know, I grew up being around the Hood River area where a lot of pears, apples and cherries are grown (we had friends who had orchards)...those are mature trees, and mature trees do not need extra irrigation to produce. They get a lot of hand work in the way of pruning and blossom plucking (to maximize size of fruit). I am 100% positive the apple orchards all over Washington are about the same. Fruit trees need little effort when they are mature other than maintenance, their roots pick up the moisture needed (ever see trees producing on old defunct farms? Fruit still coming out of those old trees no ones paying attention to, albeit not optimal fruit, the trees are overgrown).

As I said, wheat farming happened long before diesel powered machines, they were powered by teams of horses. As for personal production of wheat, it could happen, people do it, and yes they would certainly have to get hold of small scale equipment. Or yes, cut it down by hand. So long as the plot is not enormous, if needed, people would do it. I found this on wheat growing, you might like looking at it: http://www.motherearthnews.com/Real-Food/Growing-Wheat-Types-Of-Wheat.aspx#axzz2P5AfMUrn

I suspect those who really want to do well if SHTF, and we were back to hands on garden/farming, we'd figure it out, people have before and most of us already have some background of family background in agriculture and that will help a lot. Many of us are here just for this reason, not to debate how horrible the west will do, because it will not, we are here to learn from each other and find new ways to do things and pass along important information to each other. I think we are doing what Americans used to do and lost, giving each other a hand, teaching each other and promoting success all around.


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

haley4217 said:


> I've been lurking in the background of this thread for the last week and have been waiting for the posters to get their points made as I think this is a very important issue that any prepper should be thinking about and reading.
> 
> I've been preping for a SHTF scenario from a gardening standpoint for more than four years now. What I believe is very important for anyone to understand is that you just don't decide one day I want to grow a sustainable garden, walk out, put some seeds in the ground, water them and live happily ever after. Stanb999 has had some very valid points. You really have to take some time to practice, understand and develop a knowledge of what will grow in your area.... More on that in a second.
> 
> ...


Long quote...

Could you please expand on how you do your growing? Most books and scholarship on the subject of growing during drought conditions are based on limitless water and supplies. I'm very interested in learning about your methods that work.

For your sweet potatoes.
Could you amend the soil with a ton of humus? My soil if unamended can get like hard pan from the rain pounding it. Maybe your packing it in the barrel has the same effect and humus can fix it? As an amount to try. I add 1/3 rd the volume with rotted manure and green clippings at a 50/50 mix when making raised beds or planting boxes. If your soil is very high in clay. You could also add 1/3 sand. My point is try to make potting soil when you make a raised bed or huge pot.  It will take some extra effort at the start but the the results should be more than worth it.


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

cowboyhermit said:


> stanb999, While you say your soil is "technically perfect" you need VERY consistent moisture in order to have success with that much sand in the mix. Our soil has much better water retention characteristics which might account for your incorrect assumptions on the success of our agriculture.
> 
> .


That is the soil in "natural" state. That is not the soil in my garden. I add 2-3" of rotted manure every year. This way. 1-2" are mixed in, 1" or so is left on top of the ground to protect it from hard panning due to driving rain. My organic % is around 30 at season end after several years of doing this. You Should note I said in areas with a ton of rain keeping fertility high can be an issue. It is.

On a side note. I wish I had some clay... Not for the garden but for the pond. Did you ever try to dam water with silty sand. Frustration is an understatement... It holds water well. But just for a bit.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

stanb999 said:


> I did say most of the west and did exclude the PNW west of the mountains


*BS* No you actually you said was


stanb999 said:


> I didn't say all areas in the west. I said the vast majority.





stanb999 said:


> Generally land west of the Mississippi doesn't get enough water for plant based agriculture without irrigation.


Why try lying? Obviously anyone can see what you really said. You never said a would about the Pacific North West.



stanb999 said:


> #1
> The continent is bigger than the USA.
> Most didn't live in the "west" part of what is now the USA. They are dry desert regions.


The Sioux, Ojibwa, Navajo were among the largest Native Nations on the Continental United States. The Nez Peirce, Yakima, Coeur d'Alene, Puyallup, were among the wealthiest (in terms of abundance of resources and quality of life) Native nations. Contrary to your assumptions most of the west IS NOT desert. Thought the Navaho did live and farm in the desert and were quite prosperous. Most of the population of Native Nations were in fact west of the Mississippi.



stanb999 said:


> Never heard to the trail of tears?


What does that have to do with the topic?



stanb999 said:


> They only prospered on the prairie after the introduction of the horse.


Wrong we did quite well for tens of thousands of years before we started rescuing lost Europeans.

When some one insists on defending BS I tend to discount everything they say. However, rereading your posts, you in fact do sound like you may have some worth while knowledge and experience. Why not focus and share what you know rather than stay stuck trying to defend an inaccurate assumption?


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## musketjim (Dec 7, 2011)

Depending on your area check into pounding a well and using the old style hand pump. It is a little slow and the pump can squeak a bit but it's a good sound when you need some water. Check into edible plants in your area. I'm always learning new uses for plants that I've been stepping all over and pulling out of my garden for years.


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## haley4217 (Dec 16, 2012)

stanb999 said:


> Long quote...
> 
> Could you please expand on how you do your growing? Most books and scholarship on the subject of growing during drought conditions are based on limitless water and supplies. I'm very interested in learning about your methods that work.
> 
> ...


Stanb999, I'm always glad to discuss and share my experiences. I believe that the concept of unlimited water is no longer applicable in many situations. With improved tools, technology, knowledge and going back to the old original ways of doing things we can maintain a sustainable, although small scale, agricultural operation even in drier climates and through droughts.

Not wanting to stir up the debate on the west and indians and drier climates, but looking back at the way the Apache and Pueblo indians of the southwest survived in the past, it was IMHO based upon an understanding of the plants, soil and enviroment. The best example that I can thing of is "the three sisters" where squash, corn and bean were planted together in the same hill. The squash leaves shaded the soil to conserve water, the beans fixed nitrogen in the soil which fed the squash and the corn. The corn provided support for the beans to grow on. As such I spent quite a bit of time understanding what types of plants helped other plants, rotation of plants around the garden and the various ways to improve the tilth of the soil.

To that end... I divided the garden up into cells, each on being about 20' x 40'. The entire area was plowed to break up the clay down to about 10 inches deep. I then covered the cell area with any organic matter that I could get, wood chips, paper, leaves grass and of course the grasses that had grown on the fallow land previously. Then I added about 2 to 300 pounds of well composted manure (happended to be horse manure). On top of that I added epsom salts for the magnesium that my soil lacked. and about 100 pounds of a product called Humate (not to be confused with Humus). This was all turned into the soil and planted.

Second year I did not plow but instead only tilled the soil in the areas where rows were the previous year in each cell. (At this point the anti-tilling community may let loose with a GASP). This year my goal was to improve the microbial activity in the soil. To this end I added about 10 gallons of coffee grounds to each 40' row along with a helping of cotton seed meal, a smaller helping of humate (about 2 - 3 pounds) and then planted. This year I added drip irrigation to the garden and water usage was focused just on the areas of the plant. It was now that I learned that mulch or some sort of sun cover is very important to improve the usage of my limited water on the rows. Adding cover crops that serve as shade as well as a deterrant to insects helps shade the water area around the plant and keep the plants healthy without bug infestation.

Third year I have a viable and active soil. Earthworms have moved in and are helping to improve my soil even more. They get another helping of the coffee grounds that they love. More organic material in the form of wheat straw. Check the soils PH to keep it about 6.8 to 7.5 by adding sulpher if necessary.

Your thoughts on the sweet potatos are in line with my continuation of the grand experiment. I'm to old and fat to want to dig up forty feet of sweet potato rows, but I do so want to raise them. I'm going to add the compost from the chicken coop, which is a lot of wood chips along with some sand to try improve the soil and reduce compaction. Unfortunatley in this part of the southwest desert, the closest sand is more than 90 miles away. I'm going to start by going to Loews and getting a bag of sand for each sweet potato barrel and see if between sand, a little manure and some composted chicken poop/wood chips I can get a loose enough soil for the potatoes to grow.


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

haley4217 said:


> Stanb999, I'm always glad to discuss and share my experiences. I believe that the concept of unlimited water is no longer applicable in many situations. With improved tools, technology, knowledge and going back to the old original ways of doing things we can maintain a sustainable, although small scale, agricultural operation even in drier climates and through droughts.
> 
> Not wanting to stir up the debate on the west and indians and drier climates, but looking back at the way the Apache and Pueblo indians of the southwest survived in the past, it was IMHO based upon an understanding of the plants, soil and enviroment. The best example that I can thing of is "the three sisters" where squash, corn and bean were planted together in the same hill. The squash leaves shaded the soil to conserve water, the beans fixed nitrogen in the soil which fed the squash and the corn. The corn provided support for the beans to grow on. As such I spent quite a bit of time understanding what types of plants helped other plants, rotation of plants around the garden and the various ways to improve the tilth of the soil.
> 
> ...


For your sand... Check with a concrete supplier. They may give you some or at least sell you some. It may be synthetic sand(man made in a crusher) But it will work the same.
Lowes sand will work but it will be expensive.

I wish you the best of luck. I like sweets but no way will they grow for me. Lots of vitamins..


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

LongRider said:


> *BS* No you actually you said was
> 
> Why try lying? Obviously anyone can see what you really said. You never said a would about the Pacific North West.
> 
> ...


Look at the map... 100's of thousands of sq miles are arid. small sections aren't it is what it is.

North American Indians didn't do row cropping till white man came. It spread south to north. They had no idea about it. South American did, but the knowledge was lost, The Incas. The only agriculture tech they had was flood irrigation. This caused a buildup of salts. That lead to the slash and burn techniques that were prevalent till once again white man showed them about fertilization and the use of humus to preserve soil moisture.

American Indian culture while full of interesting insight wasn't prosperous.

Before you start my children are 25% American Indian.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

"The only agriculture tech they had was flood irrigation"
:brickwall:vract::surrender:
I think I should take a break from this stuff  
I can't handle constant false information and a unwillingness to have an actual discussion.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

stanb999 said:


> Look at the map...


:brickwall::surrender::gaah::surrender:
Replying to circular unresponsive strawman arguments that address nothing I posted is a waste of time. I give :surrender: You win!!

25% is a BIA designation with no foundation in reality you are either ndn or not. Most often revealed once the shooting starts.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

jeff47041 said:


> I'm mostly concerned with how I would till the soil if there is no gas available. A hoe just isn't gonna get it.


With the right tractor and soil, one 55 gallon drum ~might~ keep you going for 55 years 

http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f21/bit-bug-tractors-17580/index3.html#post244077


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

I recently decided to start doing this no till method explained on this video "Back to Eden" (they do not want the link added to forums apparently, just look it up on Vimeo).

This eliminates the need to till, and also is a fantastic way to keep moisture in. Someone else here pointed this video out to me, I watched it and being from the Northwest, this made sense to me when it was presented on this video. It was the "aha" moment. This would make using any hand tolls quite easy since the soil stays so pliable as long as you are keeping it mulched.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

HoppeEL4 said:


> the soil stays so pliable as long as you are keeping it mulched.


That's the key... keeping lots of mulch. Breaking new ground is hard work.


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

HoppeEL4 said:


> I recently decided to start doing this no till method explained on this video "Back to Eden" (they do not want the link added to forums apparently, just look it up on Vimeo).
> 
> This eliminates the need to till, and also is a fantastic way to keep moisture in. Someone else here pointed this video out to me, I watched it and being from the Northwest, this made sense to me when it was presented on this video. It was the "aha" moment. This would make using any hand tolls quite easy since the soil stays so pliable as long as you are keeping it mulched.


Yeah, I mentioned it in my first post. What the fellow is doing really seems to work.


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

I would love to see his garden in person, it looks amazing. I am currently working an area of the land we're on to hopefully be like this. Have some chips coming from the electric companies trimming crew (they were in the area butchering some trees near their powers lines!!LOL). I talked to their boss and he is supposedly stopping by sometime this afternoon to dump an entire load of wood chips...of all the things to be excited about, a dump truck load of free chipped trees .

This will work for me better, although we do have a rototiller, it is a front tine one, and it just takes off on me, I cannot control it the way I would like to be able to. It is usually a husband job here (I am 5'4", those handles are at my chest), and he hates doing this kind of thing. I think this method is also good for older people who could not handle the machine (that would not apply to our neighbor, who we suspect is in his later 80's, he is a dynamo and has all manner of machines he runs, plus cuts his own firewood).


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

HoppeEL4 said:


> This will work for me better, although we do have a rototiller, it is a front tine one, and it just takes off on me, I cannot control it the way I would like to be able to. It is usually a husband job here (I am 5'4"...


My wife is also 5' 4", and 106 lbs. I found an early 80's Troy-Bilt "Pony" for cheap that needed an engine, and fixed it up. She has no issues handling it at all, its very easy to use. She likes being able to have stuff like that at her disposal, it gives her some freedom to act on ideas without waiting for me to come and do it for her.


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

Problem we did not foresee getting this rototiller, it is front tine, very powerful, so it pulls down significantly, makes it hard for me to control. Had we thought it out better we could have gotten a rear tine and I would have had zero problem handling it...well, we'll know better next time around.


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## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

18HP and it still takes a while, but it is a LOT easier on me than the old paint shaker I used to use!


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## Jaspar (Feb 3, 2010)

Actually, most of Iowa averages over 35 inches per year. Upper 30's is more of the norm. Western Iowa is the drier part of the state.


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

machinist, makes me want to kick my husband in the butt...He went out and bought a little John Deere lawn tractor for our large area about 1 &1/2 years ago. He could have gotten the one that had (I think I am understanding the setup right..) the back and front attachments for a bucket in front and a tiller in back. It was truthfully only about $1500 more but at that time we had it to use, and this would have saved us a lot of back breaking type of work around here. I am not sure why he didn't except he is a city guy and did not even think of it at all, plus I was not with him for this purchase.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

The tow behind units with their own motor really aren't that bad, not the greatest but the nice thing is they can be pulled behind anything, even a quad. They tend to bounce around a bit but some can accept weights and then if you go slow enough they get the job done, have worked an acre of old grass with one and it wasn't bad.
If it is possible though always try to get one with PTO imo.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

HoppeEL4 said:


> machinist, makes me want to kick my husband in the butt...


I believe it was on another thread Machinist discussed having horses for when the grid goes down. I think horses are impracticable for us as there is not a lot of grazing area around here so the upkeep would out weight their usefulness. But as we are planning on raising Boar Goats for meat I am wondering if they could be used. The adults get up to about 250 pounds, so a team should be able to handle the work load. Have seen them used to pull carts but have never heard of anyone using them to plow. Any thoughts anyone?


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

HoppeEL4 said:


> Had we thought it out better we could have gotten a rear tine and I would have had zero problem handling it...well, we'll know better next time around.


I always wondered about just switching the wheels around, if it would make it easier to use. Have a friend with a welder?


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Google "plowing with goats"

Found this:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Getting+rid+of+burdock+and+plowing+with+goats.-a079574976
Regarding the editor's comment about using a goat to pull a plow: I actually have a goat-sized cultivator that I bought from Lehman's. It is Amish-built, made to last a lifetime, and although it is small, it is a serious tool. I like it because it is just my size. They also offer a goat-sized harness to hitch the goat up to the plow, which I also bought. They are of the opinion that you can use a large male goat to pull the cultivator. I bought the cultivator intending to use animals rather than machines to do certain chores. I am a small person, so I do not want to use large animals, and a male goat is just about as big an animal as I feel I can handle. I do not have my goats yet. We are planning to have their living quarters finished by spring. I have not used the cultivator yet. The editor's comment that goats aren't strong enough to do this type of work has caught my attention. I would be interested in hearing comments from other readers on using goats for this type of work, especially those who have experience.

AND this:
http://www.boergoats.com/clean/articleads.php?art=1054
Whatever, plowing with goats is for the birds.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

LongRider said:


> Any thoughts anyone?


Yes, One last thought... consider getting a tractor. An old Farmall H with a "distillate" manifold will burn almost anything. You may have to warm it up on propane before switching fuels. You could also get a small diesel tractor. I have one with a single cylinder Chinese diesel that starts (EASILY!) with a hand crank. I used to have a John Deere 850 (Yanmar) that would start by rolling down a small hill. A small gas engine running on propane could be used to build a "start cart" with as well.


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## -prepper- (Feb 3, 2013)

Meerkat said:


> Another thing to consider is to try and keep your soil pliable and healthy.
> 
> If you use chemicle fertilizers you'll be in serious trouble when you run out. It destroys the soil. So if you have to go to compost or organics to enrich soil,it will be hard to get back the natural bacteria the chemicles killed.


Speaking of that ... I recently bought liquefied Fish guys ... It says its all organic and is really good for the soil because its all composted ... But I'm weary of using this .


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

That would be great to watch Maybe instead of a plow you could think about some sort of cultivator, they allow for more adjustment. When our land was farmed with draught power we very rarely used plows, they are pretty rough on the land if done all the time. We used spring tooth cultivators, other types of cultivator, rod weeders, one way and tandem discs, and different kinds of harrowing. Could classify as minimum tillage under some definitions but mostly it was to be more economical.

I agree, horses are amazing animals but expensive to keep now or after shtf. A milk cow would have no problem tilling any reasonably sized garden, no need for a full harness just a yoke for this kind of work. So you would have all your draught needs covered and a great supply of food as well.


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

I have seen how difficult a goat can be and have a hard time imagining them as beasts of burden.....they are burdens alright, but maybe not in the good way when it comes to helping (stubborn animals, self-willed).

How about ponies instead of full sized horses? Smaller, easier to care for, strong still and might take less feed? I mean the smaller breeds, not the mid sized ones. That would be a question a horse friend of mine could answer (never had horses myself).


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## jeff47041 (Jan 5, 2013)

I was thinking that if it could be pulled by a goat, wouldn't a man be able to pull it? Seems like goats aren't that strong.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

LincTex said:


> Yes, One last thought... consider getting a tractor.


Oh I get that and multiple fuel sources. As I said when machinist mentioned using livestock it got me to doing some thinking. Hypothetical thinking and redundant back ups and all that. As horses are not practical for us as I said, just considering options. It won't be until at least after fall that we get our first goats, still unsure of we will start out with milk or meat goats



HoppeEL4 said:


> I have seen how difficult a goat can be and have a hard time imagining them as beasts of burden.....they are burdens alright, but maybe not in the good way when it comes to helping (stubborn animals, self-willed).


Agreed I have similar concerns, but I have seen Boar and Nubian goats pull carts of people at our local hick fairs and they are fairly docile. Figure it is a matter of proper training and individual temperament but that is a guess as I don't know squat. Which is why I am asking.



jeff47041 said:


> I was thinking that if it could be pulled by a goat, wouldn't a man be able to pull it? Seems like goats aren't that strong.


Depends on the breed. Adult male Boar goats get to be 250 pounds plus and built like a tank. Look like mini bulls to me, broad deep chested heavily muscled. I have seen them teamed up to pull larger loads of people, I could do the same to plow. As HoppEL4 said their willingness to do the job is my big concern.

At one point I even thought of using my Akitas. Akita have been used for everything man has ever used a dog for and Akita have been on winning Iditorod teams more than once. My male can pull a Subaru with a seized engine and four flat tires around like it is a feather. Maybe get him to lead the team though at 135 pounds the goats will dwarf him.


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## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

If you choose to use cattle for draft animals, instead of a yoke use horse harness but INVERT the collar (narrow part at the bottom instead of at the top) so it fits the cow's neck. This is much easier on the cattle than the old wooden yokes, so they will be much more productive without making their neck sore. Use the horse hames in the regular upright position, adjusting the hame straps to fit. The big job in using cattle is training the cattle. They aren't the smartest critter on the farm. 

Personally, I would go for a large pony, around 400 to 500 pounds, and use cut-down horse harness. I've done that with great success. Our old one had grown up cultivating tobacco in Kentucky, and did us a fine job in our garden with a "7 shovel cultivator". They are adjustable for width to fit the row middles. 
Photo: http://www.mytractorforum.com/showthread.php?t=13981

It is surprising how fast this works. Bearing in mind that a large pony will normally walk a bit faster than people, you can cover the garden pretty quickly. The pony can also pull a 4 foot wide section of harrow, and a number of other things. Make a simple wooden sled about 3 feet wide and 6 feet long with sides maybe a foot tall for hauling stuff around the place. Slick runners (steel clad) make it slide easily and can haul 300 pounds or more if the ground is flat.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Machinist makes a good point, it is possible to get more work out of cattle with a full harness or a collar I just don't think it is necessary in most situations. One of the biggest advantages of a cow (with horns) is that anyone can make a yoke in a day, a harness on the other hand is a major investment in time/money. This is why the vast majority of draught power in our history comes from animals other than horses, the collar and harness are relatively recent inventions and without them horses were not able to pull effectively. Also the amount of time it takes to rig things up and getting the animals used to a full harness are also factors. Harnessing up a draught horse can be a big job, putting a yoke on a cow takes a minute.

For a situation like tilling a garden with a quiet milk cow almost no training is required (easy 4h project) simply take a halter broke animal and get it used to a yoke, this should not take more than a week or two, about an hour per day. Then you simply lead the animal around the garden while it is doing the work. There is a lot more when it comes to the details of training but it takes little time and I have never had a problem in terms of intelligence, much easier (and safer) than training a horse because they tend to be much more docile. 
These methods are not going to give you the pulling power of a team or pair of full fledged oxen but that is a different thing entirely. A pair of oxen could till an acre a day, so even if a family had a few acres of garden it is easy to see that that kind of horsepower would be overkill. Very hard to justify the cost versus a milk cow that you have anyways. Of course oxen in the past were always used for a few years then went for meat but an actual ox will eat a lot (though less than a draught horse)


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

Yeah ponies bite a lot, they can be so stinking mean. What's that about?


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## -prepper- (Feb 3, 2013)

HoppeEL4 said:


> Yeah ponies bite a lot, they can be so stinking mean. What's that about?


They are a little horse  :ba dum tss:


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Lol, HoppeEL4, you made be laugh this morning, I know what you mean.
Btw cows don't bite but I wouldn't say they can't be mean, if you have ever seen a novice milker have a cow knock over an entire pail of milk so casually it is enough to make you weepy, or crave a steak.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

cowboyhermit said:


> if you have ever seen a novice milker have a cow knock over an entire pail of milk so casually


My dad had a little device he called "kickers" that he put on the cows back legs (kind of like leg-cuffs?).... had a piece of chain and two bent metal pieces in a "U" shape. A quick "Image search" on google for "milking kickers" brings up photos. I am not sure how they were supposed to work?


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Yup, those can be useful, especially if training an old cow. Shouldn't be necessary for a good milk cow or an experienced milking person. We milk beef cows sometimes, for the colostrum to give to calves that have problems, and that can be interesting but don't usually bother with those because sometimes they freak out the cow more than the milking.


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

Ponies must have little horse syndrome!!!LOL


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## lexiatel (Apr 20, 2013)

Immolatus said:


> A couple of points, most have been said already.
> Humanure? I'm not even going to look into that. Your average person consumes tons of nasty chemicals that I wouldnt put in my garden. You are what you eat, and the average diet is absolute crap. If it has to be treated/sterilized to remove these chemicals, which I'm sure it aint (at least treated to remove the toxins from eating dorito's, coke, MCD, frozen dinners, etc) then youre paying for...what exactly?
> Oh yeah, and your own crap is free, so start collecting it! _*shudders*_


This actually works really well. And creates a LOT of GREAT soil. Needs a lot of time to sit though.

Anyway, if you prepare for Human manure before "SHTF", even if you didn't use the "p00p full of chemicals", you would get a basic idea how it works, and could at least plant flowers in it.

Then, when SHTF, you will be prepared, and ready to actually use the human manure for veggie gardening. Since you would no longer be eating chemicals, because you would be growing your own food, you would have some safe p00p to cook. 

Goats could work well, if they are trained properly, yes, sometimes they are stubborn, but they love food, you can easily train them by using their stomach, lol.

I think of all the animals, if SHTF, I would get/keep the rabbits, chickens, and goats. I think the milk cow would produce way too much. There is a possibility of making a ton of cheese with it though.... but yeah...unless there is someone willing to trade for a cow (which is likely a possibility too), I would rather have the goats, who eat just about anything the land grows, and they have more babies a year (meat....).


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## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

That works if you like to eat goat meat.


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## Wellrounded (Sep 25, 2011)

lexiatel said:


> This actually works really well. And creates a LOT of GREAT soil. Needs a lot of time to sit though.
> 
> Anyway, if you prepare for Human manure before "SHTF", even if you didn't use the "p00p full of chemicals", you would get a basic idea how it works, and could at least plant flowers in it.
> 
> ...


We have a humanure toilets around the farm, the drums are set aside for 6 months, then emptied onto a compost heaps. We use this compost to improve soil prior to tree planting. We also have a septic tank, we are getting rid of it though, hate the things.

I think the goat v's cow issue all depends on your situation. For us it's cows, we use a lot of milk. Three cows for us is about right, although if we had the pasture we'd probably have 4. Yep that's a LOT of milk and a lot of time to harvest and process it. There are two families on the farm now, 4 adults and one child as well as a lot of visitors. 
We drink milk, make yoghurt, cheeses, butter, sour cream, cream, cream cheese etc and feed a lot to our poultry and pigs (as yoghurt). 
Their manure is a big part of our soil improvement program. Bully calves are either eaten (one per year or 18 months) or sold, heifers we raise and train as house cows to be sold, this is a really important part of our income.


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

Goat meat....never had it, what is it similar too (please don't say chicken!!!LOL) ?


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## Wellrounded (Sep 25, 2011)

HoppeEL4 said:


> Goat meat....never had it, what is it similar too (please don't say chicken!!!LOL) ?


A lot like lamb, more delicate/tender than lamb of the same age. If there is a billy anywhere near though it can taste a bit 'goaty'.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

HoppeEL4 said:


> Goat meat....never had it, what is it similar too (please don't say chicken!!!LOL) ?


As said like lamb or maybe mild venison though juicier more succulent and tender. Rather than more delicate I'd say richer more flavorful. Adaptable to any beef dish, in most cases improving the flavor significantly. Actually one of my favorite meats, probably the most consumed meat animal world wide.
As been said a Billy can effect the flavor in a bad way. You should not slaughter when your Billy is in rut. You'll know when that is as he will become especially rank and pungent and is best to separate him out from the herd a week or more before slaughter


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

We have lots of blackberries around here, a goat or two would come in handy...but...then there is my husband who would see them as pets and not want them slaughtered. He did this with the rabbits we raised (son and I). We were getting ready to take the young ones we had bred for this purpose in, and he would not eat them later.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Wellrounded said:


> We have a humanure toilets around the farm, the drums are set aside for 6 months, then emptied onto a compost heaps. We also have a septic tank, we are getting rid of it though, hate the things.


You need to build a methane generator.

(Who runs Bartertown?!? LOL!)


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## Wellrounded (Sep 25, 2011)

LincTex said:


> You need to build a methane generator.
> 
> (Who runs Bartertown?!? LOL!)


We've talked about it but at the end of the day I still hate septic tanks. We'd put the time/money into wood gas.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Methane is great, we have a large feedlot running a power plant on their manure not too far from here. I have seen it work on a small scale as well but I have to agree for myself it has not been worth it. The smell and unpleasantness (shouldn't have to deal with this often) coupled with the huge quantities of wood on our place made it not add up. If we were in different circumstances I would do it for sure. I have been really impressed with the sawdust toilet concept.


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## Wellrounded (Sep 25, 2011)

cowboyhermit said:


> Methane is great, we have a large feedlot running a power plant on their manure not too far from here. I have seen it work on a small scale as well but I have to agree for myself it has not been worth it. The smell and unpleasantness (shouldn't have to deal with this often) coupled with the huge quantities of wood on our place made it not add up. If we were in different circumstances I would do it for sure. I have been really impressed with the sawdust toilet concept.


I've been using compost toilets of one kind or another for 25 years. I like them for a lot of reasons. They don't smell at all if you get the waste / organic matter ratio right, they are cheap, because they are cheap you can have 20 of them if you want, you can put them anywhere and move them easily, you end up with a product that is usable/quite valuable and generally the toilet is OUTSIDE which is exactly where I think it should be (well in my climate anyway, lol.)


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Yeah, most people here are not thinking outside is a big plus at least six months of the year
The manufactured composting toilets with heaters and fans are supposed to produce a safe product as well but I have been greatly underwhelmed by them so I say sawdust toilet a lot even though all kinds of organic matter can be used. I wish there was a better name, I guess that was the idea with humanure. 
By the way we have used this type of system in an outhouse and I almost hate to call it an outhouse because people think of unpleasant places when they hear that. Using this system an outhouse is much more pleasant than a rv toilet or a campsite (outhouse) and you use no chemicals, giving you a great source of nutrients for future use.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

HoppeEL4 said:


> We have lots of blackberries around here, a goat or two would come in handy...but...then there is my husband who would see them as pets and not want them slaughtered. He did this with the rabbits we raised (son and I). We were getting ready to take the young ones we had bred for this purpose in, and he would not eat them later.


When I was young under 6 my job was to feed the bunnies at my grandparents farm. One day my uncle grabs a rabbit by its hind legs not thinking of me and slams its skull onto a large killing spike on a post. I freaked out. At dinner I refused to eat even though it was explained to me I had been eating those rabbits for years,but I was not given anything else to eat. Back then special order individual meals was unheard of (still is in out household). After a bit, hunger helped me remember that tender young baby bunnies are tasty. Point being tell hubby eat it or not but that's all that's being served. 
That said we have the same issue except it is my wife who is afraid she will fall in love with the goats even though she hates goats. A goat in the San Diego zoo ripped her dress off and ate it. Requiring her to walk with only a T Bar through thousands of summer visitors. Before my time but I am sure quiet the sight as she has been known to cause car wrecks wearing far more than that. No doubt more than a couple of spouses got a smack for erectional reactions. Anyway she is afraid she will fall in love with the kids when they are born. So we are starting with milk goats and I plan on keeping her away from the meat goats when they kid. She can bond with ma and pa, though at 250 pounds I doubt she will find them all that cuddly. Or may I can condition the kids to eat women's clothing. Than she'll help with the butchering.


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## 8thDayStranger (Jan 30, 2013)

LongRider said:


> When I was young under 6 my job was to feed the bunnies at my grandparents farm.


Tell me about the rabbits George. Tell me about how I get to tend them rabbits.

Sorry. I couldn't resist.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

LongRider said:


> Requiring her to walk with only a T Bar through thousands of summer visitors...


Not familiar? Like a T shirt? She had nothing else to wrap around her?


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

LincTex said:


> Not familiar? Like a T shirt? She had nothing else to wrap around her?


San Diego Zoo one of if not the largest in the US, so gets a lot of world travelers.
T-bar a tad more than a G String







]
Was all she had on under her summer dress. She was local at the time, just taking her daughter to the petting zoo for the after noon. So all she had was her purse. Apparently she had to walk through a large segment of the zoo to get to a gift shop. She was/is a well portioned 38DD, at the time twenty something.


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

There are no more rabbits in the freezer now, so it is pointless to argue with him. I know I had not issue eating them, I did not see them as pets, they were ornery, not tamed and bit when they could, didn't hurt my feelings to take them into the processors and see them come back unfuzzy and in plastic bags.

As for goats, I have been around them and think they are kind of irritating. My son keeps trying to get me to get a couple of minis for the heck of it, but they are escape artists and I would constantly be trying to hunt them down. As for milking ones, nah...I just do not have the liking for the milk enough to do that right now. If SHTF I would, knowing it would be the source of milk we could easily sustain ourselves.


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## bigtrain2020 (Mar 20, 2013)

Hydroponics is a good thing to get into also. You can grow year round and have massive yields. I start em inside early in the year then some will go outside and some will go into hydroponics.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

bigtrain2020 said:


> You can grow year round and have massive yields.


Only with enough light.

If after TSHTF, you have only sunlight available, yields will be about the same as any other form of gardening.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

bigtrain2020 said:


> Hydroponics is a good thing to get into also. You can grow year round and have massive yields. I start em inside early in the year then some will go outside and some will go into hydroponics.


What happens when the grid is down no power no source for nutrients? While productive I do not see growing enough to sustain you. Would be interesting to see a study comparing hydroponic production by square foot to outdoor and green house gardening production.



LincTex said:


> Only with enough light.
> 
> If after TSHTF, you have only sunlight available, yields will be about the same as any other form of gardening.


My thought too a greenhouses is what we are doing to extend the growing season and do a little year round gardening mostly peppers and herbs


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## bigtrain2020 (Mar 20, 2013)

You can use hydroponics in a greenhouse. There are many many forms of hydroponics. And as far as light, that can be archived with solar and batteries. U don't have to use 1,500 watt lights to grow. And nutrients aren't an absolute need. Water is. Build a cistern off the greenhouse. Water is recycled.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

LongRider said:


> Would be interesting to see a study comparing hydroponic production by square foot to outdoor and green house gardening production.


The best overall is still a nice big garden using as much "no-till" practice as possible with lots of compost. Anything else is just to get the same yield from smaller and smaller areas... but always at a cost increase.



LongRider said:


> My thought too, a greenhouses is what we are doing to extend the growing season and do a little year round gardening mostly peppers and herbs


Correct, some people think greenhouses are magical boxes of growing goodness. All they do is allow you to regulate temperature, they are physically incapable of doing ANYTHING else. Meaning: they can't add more sunlight, more water, etc.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

bigtrain2020 said:


> And as far as light, that can be archived with solar and batteries. U don't have to use 1,500 watt lights to grow.


It sounds good... until you run the numbers, because efficiency numbers in solar panels and batteries are so low. Expect less than 1 lumen created per 4-5 lumens (roughly) gathered (or worse). 
You need a LOT of solar panel capacity and a LOT of batteries to produce enough (good) light that plants can actually "grow from".

Plants take in 100% of the sunlight given to them. Solar panels only run around 30%. Now, put the energy generated into a battery. 100 amp hours "in" does NOT equal 100 amp hours "out"!!


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

bigtrain2020 said:


> And nutrients aren't an absolute need. Water is. Build a cistern off the greenhouse. Water is recycled.


Than what feeds the plants?

I am vaguely familiar with aqua farming. The basic principle is that fish live off of the algae and some provided nutrients. The waste from the fish provides nutrients for the plants and the plants clean the water to make it habitable for the fish. But that requires massive amounts of water and power to keep the water flowing. Other than that how would you feed the plants the necessary nutrients to grow and produce?



LincTex said:


> Meaning: they can't add more sunlight, more water, etc.


Correct, though properly made ones make more efficient use of the available light and regulate temp.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

I might as well throw in my two cents.
Hydroponics can produce good yields of veggies and it can be done without artificial lights. Some source of nutrients must be added although this can be compost tea or another natural (not store bought) source.
Most plants that grow well hydroponically are low calorie foods.
So why would a person mess around with all the difficulties of hydroponic systems when dirt works at least as well? Maybe to produce some vitamin rich greens it would be worth it for some.

Auquaponics makes sense IMO if you want to raise fish, I have found the amount of power to not be extreme if using efficient pumps and a setup where huge flow rates are not required. It is doable with an alternative energy system. I don't see much reason why anyone raising fish would not consider incorporating some plants to filter the water and utilize the manure.

Good old gardening in it's countless variations can do everything hydroponics can and more imo.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

LongRider said:


> I am vaguely familiar with aqua farming. The basic principle is that fish live off of the algae and some provided nutrients. The waste from the fish provides nutrients for the plants and the plants clean the water to make it habitable for the fish.


Pretty close, except the fish need a LOT of feed. They make various ammonia waste products (pee/poo) to feed the plants, and the plants clean the water.

Where people make mistakes:
1) The fish need a lot of feed (with protein), and water flow (oxygen)
2) The water is filtered by a LOT of plants to keeps only a FEW fish alive. "Plants-to-fish ratio" is very high.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

What LincTex said is completely true imo. I don't think buying feed to raise fish is a very wise use of resources or particularly sustainable. It is possible to raise some or all of the feed on your own though, duckweed is good for this (depending on the species of fish) as are many types of worms.
With regards to the large amount of plants to fish, this is true but adding even some plants into an existing aquaculture system will reduce the amount of filtering needed with very little added cost. Finding ways to sustainably raise fish is the hard part imo, adding some plants to use the nutrients is relatively cheap and easy.


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

So hows Mother nature treating folks this year in the grain belts? What have you gotten planted. Because the weather in those regions is not less than ideal. No massive swings in temperature. nice even climate.

P.S. I read the Washington apple and cherry crops are likely damaged from frosts. Stinks growing in marginal areas.

Got fruit?

Not marginal you say? What the heck is this!


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## k0xxx (Oct 27, 2011)

When we experimented with Aquaponics, we raised worms and crickets to feed the fish (Channel Catfish). We also hung a bug zapper over the fish tank at night to provide the fish with additional food, although it wasn't what you would call a very security conscience idea. We weren't raising a lot of fish though, only about 24. We would test for ammonia, and if it started to creep up, we would drain off and replace 5 or ten gallons from the bottom of the tank each day until it corrected. The drained off water would go to our regular garden. It worked OK, but it required too much monitoring to make it worth it at the time. Now we just raise fish in a pond.


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

*Hijacked thread alert.*

K0xxx. New avatar! :melikey:

OK. All done.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

stanb999 said:


> So hows Mother nature treating folks this year in the grain belts? What have you gotten planted. Because the weather in those regions is not less than ideal. No massive swings in temperature. nice even climate.
> 
> P.S. I read the Washington apple and cherry crops are likely damaged from frosts. Stinks growing in marginal areas.
> 
> ...


Seriously, now you are just going to be a plain old troll? 
What is your problem that makes you so close minded and mean spirited on this issue?
I hope you work things out.

Our climate is right in the middle of what we have seen in the last 100+ years, we had a long winter but the rule of thumb around here is to not worry until June, that gives plenty of time for a bumper crop. May long weekend has been the standard garden planting weekend for decades in our area.


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

cowboyhermit said:


> Our climate is right in the middle of what we have seen in the last 100+ years, we had a long winter but the rule of thumb around here is to not worry until June, that gives plenty of time for a bumper crop. May long weekend has been the standard garden planting weekend for decades in our area.


Could be true. But for the corn belt they are way behind. It's getting worse by the day. They don't plant on June first.

Follow this link for coverage of the most recent storm. On this they also show the frost driving deep into Texas, The issue here is in two months they will be limited in growing due to the extreme heat and dry conditions. 
http://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/snowstorm-potential-for-omaha/11404310

A bit about the crop reports...
http://www.porknetwork.com/pork-new...down-by-rain-freeze-hits-wheat-205766701.html

What if SHTF cools and drys the climate? Like nuclear winter, a big volcano, a series meteors, or even likely at this point a deep solar cycle(predicted by even NASA). I know we all prep for different things. But some things are more likely than others and weather extremes are documented to have happened through history.

P.S. For those that don't know. Those towers are fans used to prevent frost from harming the crop. Frost must be darn common to take on the expense of that. Our modern food production is very odd. Profit driven, rather than ease of growing. Precarious at best, dangerous at worst.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

stanb999 said:


> Frost must be darn common to take on the expense of that.......
> 
> Our modern food production is very odd. Profit driven, rather than ease of growing. Precarious at best, dangerous at worst.


Much can be said for many of the "specialty" pieces of farm equipment, like anhydrous ammonia application equipment, sunflower pans and cotton strippers. Big money for something that gets very little use, but when you need it available you *have* to have it around for your own use.

Seriously, if you take away all modern farm practice and go back to a mule pulling a 12" one-bottom plow, some people will feed themselves (and maybe a few others) but many, many will not.


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## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

Most farmland has been mono-cropped for so long that without modern hybrid seeds, fertilizers, and chemical herbicides/pesticides it would not yield much. Any interruption in that supply chain could have disastrous results. 

The same goes for the special machinery that LincTex talked about. In Russia, there were huge fields that went unharvested for lack of critical machine repair parts. The supply system for machine parts is very complex and very dependent on business as usual these days.


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