# lights on or off?



## db2469 (Jun 11, 2012)

If there are people seeking food, water, etc after an economic collapse, do you think they would be more or less inclined to try to enter if they believed people were living there? It seems a dark house with no sound emitting would make them think that it has been abandoned and might not have anything to offer and leave it alone...on the other hand, they might see it as easy pickins if they believe there would be no resistance to their breaking & entering...
DB


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

Lights will attract attention.. Even if most were were discouraged by a full house ( and i am not sure that is true) many would know there was something to get...

Anyone who can maintain electricty in a SHTF should save it for daytime powertool use etc


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## tugboats (Feb 15, 2009)

Thre is no one answer. There are so many variables unstated in the question. Is this an urban, subdivision, rural, country, land or water location? Do you have like minded people around you or are you on your own? Is this a defendable location or are you pretty much exposed?

This is a great question that I will have to think long and hard on. (just when I think I have a solution another question pops up)

Thank you for raising the question. This is really a good discussion question for my family. We try to reason out problems at the dinner table. Rational discussion helps us to think logically and solve problems as a team.

Tugs


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## db2469 (Jun 11, 2012)

Tugs...I was thinking primarily about my situation...as I've stated in other threads, the wife and I will be living in a "safe" room in the basement but would want to stay upstairs as long as possible. If we realized that, indeed, there were bands of people desperate enough to break in homes, etc., we would retreat to that room and either leave lights on or off, hence my question. I'm certaintly leaning towards making the home appear abandoned. We will be able to have light in the safe room without fear of detection..We live in a town of 1700 in rural PA, not the most likely location for roving hordes BUT...
DB


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

I think you're better off leaving the lights off. Especially if you have to hide out in your safe room. Dump some old newspapers and some empty coke bottles in your yard. Save up a bunch of junk mail and put it in your mail box.


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## db2469 (Jun 11, 2012)

Good suggestions!
DB


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Lights encourage visitors besides those looking for a hand out.bad ones.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

*6 of 1, half a dozen of the other*

This really is a difficult question to answer.

I was working out of town in the fall, and I had an uninvited visitor in my home. I know who it was, and it seemed to be more of a game about being able to get into my house in spite of my changing locks multiple times in the last couple years. It was someone who had done some work at my house and was basically a homeless person, due to substance abuse. I have never noticed anything missing. I believe he wanted a place to hang out, to take a shower, etc. and to get in because he could.

How could I tell? There was some odd trash by the washing machine. Someone did laundry and dropped the trash out of pockets, and either left it on purpose, or forgot it.

One night my ice-maker dumped ice at regular intervals all night long. I only use ice when I am entertaining and when it is really hot out. It was neither.

My HDTV box has been on when I come home. It turns itself off after 6 hours. If I am gone for 5 days, I had company.

Odd phone calls and messages, checking to see if I was home.

There were some things that were staged to see if I was home. The mat at my front door has never had an edge turned over in the years I've had it until last fall. For a period of time it was turned over frequently. It was a test to see if someone had straigtened it. If it was straightened, it meant I had come home. So, I would leave it with the corner turned over. Eventually I set a plant in a pot on each side.

So back to the original question: I think that whether your lights should be on or not will really depend upon several things: your location, the potential visitors, who visits regularly. It is possible this will be a moot point as no one will have electricity.

Sometimes I leave low level lights on 24/7 for weeks at a time. Sometimes all my lights are turned off when I am home.

I began the lights on 24/7 because I live on a fairly busy street and I seem to get regular uninvited people knocking on the door wanting a hand-out. I have really quit answering the door. If someone I know is coming, they will let me know in advance, call me when they are out front, or have a key. An unknown caller knocking on the door is looking for a handout. This has gone on for the 20 years since I moved here. WHen it gets really bad, oh yeah, the knocking on the door will escalate, not diminish.

The lights on 24/7 leaves people wondering if I am home, when I am home, and if I am up or in bed. A couple low level lights does not draw much power and has had no noticeable effect on my power bill.

If no one has power, I won't either and I plan to be up with the sun and to bed with the sun, as my ancestors before me.


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## Emerald (Jun 14, 2010)

weedygarden-you need a small no flash infra red trail cam put up in one of your ducts or in a safe hidden area.. you may find out who it is and get rid of them for good.. that would pizz me off to no end to have some one rummage thru my home and use things. You never know when they would lose their fear of being caught and just out and out kill ya when you show up unexpected. go around your yard or area and look for tramp signs .. they will be odd little carvings in the trees or even sharpy marker not big or showy.. but these little signs/carvings will let other homeless know that you are a feeder or not home often and others will try to do what the one has been doing. are you close to rail roads? these types of signs are very common near big railways.

A homeless man was beaten to death in Grand rapids mi just this last week. that is more scary that someone with nothing was killed for not his stuff even.. it was still all around him. who knows what happened.
but if one is getting into your home who knows what may happen next..

here is a link to some of the hobo signs so that if you see them you can know what to do.. 
http://www.worldpath.net/~minstrel/hobosign.htm

I only knew a few of them as some of the homeless in florida were working for day labor and it was right behind the restaurant I first worked at when I moved there.. as I never treated them less than human and treated them with respect if they paid for their breakfast they often watched out for me as I walked to work each day at 430 in the morning( i didn't have a car then and the buses didnt' run that early) since I had to walk Dixie Hwy for about a mile it was a quick walk for me. One morning a young man thought I was either younger or smaller or even a young boy out and tried to wrestle me into his car.. unlucky for him I was not only bigger than him I was meaner than him and had a huge book that I read for break.. a big hardcover and I broke his nose with it.. knocked him down and ran screaming for the restaurant which was only two store fronts down.. by that time about 6 of my regulars who lived by the train tracks that ran along the hwy were running my way with two by fours and ran with me to the front door and we called the police. Good thing the boss wasn't late that day. After that I got an escort from my road to the restaurant every morning by at least one or two of them and I paid for their breakfast that day.. they showed me some of the hobo signs/tramp signs and what to look for. While there is always one in every crowd this bunch of fellas were pretty good guys and always tipped every morning.. sure they all had the $1.99 breakky deal.. coffee and biscuits and gravy. but we fed them well and Ledo told me that he had never been broken into since he started the cheap breakfast deal.. 
and the fella that tried to grab me... well come to find out he had tried to snatch several young boys in the area and me in a hooded sweatshirt looked like a boy.. between me and several others and his broken face they found him at the hospital trying to get it fixed that afternoon.. we all got him arrested and gone.. They dropped my case as it was better with the several young boys to get him behind bars.. I was the only adult. he wouldn't have gotten as much time with my involvement as he got for the under age boys. sounds odd but he went away for a while. but without me breaking his nose and face with my book they may not have found him so quick..


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## Beaniemaster2 (May 22, 2012)

Boy, this is a good one...

Lights on, they know they'll have someone to contend with...

Lights out, may make it look like an easy target...

Yes, as already said, 6 and 1/2 dozen of the other... Your call...... 

PS: Yes tugboats, something new always pops up huh??? Geeeeeeze


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

This IS a good, thought-provoking question. In regard to the original question, in the situation described, I would say you would probably be better off leaving your lights off. Furthermore, since your plan seems to be to remain hidden in a safe room, you may actually want to "toss" the lower level of the house so that anyone looking in the windows will think that someone else has already beat them to it. This would probably not stop EVERY interested party, but could at least minimize unwanted attempts at entry into your house.

In reference to the murder of a homeless person whose belongings were left behind: this may sound as though I am animalizing the homeless, but from a law enforcement perspective.... The homeless can be very territorial. When they have an overpass they have settled, or an abandoned building in which they are squatting, or a favorite alleyway to hunker down in, they get very defensive. LEOs are generally cautioned to approach homeless people with caution, because nearly all carry some sort of weapon (often improvised) for self defense.


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## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

This is just me, but when I have heard bumps in the night, I generally shut off any lights before I investigate. I guess I figure I can see somebody better if they're lurking outside if I don't have any light behind me. I don't want to have to get right up close to the windows to peer out and have somebody standing there looking at me (shudder). Now this is with electricity and we have a yard light that turns on at dusk. No electricity out where I live would be pitch black....and I mean pitch! Unless somebody had a flashlight, which would be insanely obvious to anybody in the house, they'd not only get my dogs wound up but would trip on misc. things in my yard (thanks, kids) and either twist an ankle or bang their knees on something. 
I kinda think it would be better to make your house/yard look like you had abandoned the place even to the point of scattering clothing out on the lawn and putting up plywood on some of the windows. Make it look as "looted" as possible so when people come by they think it's a waste of time to stop and look. Lights at night would be a no-no in my book unless you had blackened out your windows with plastic garbage bags or some such other thing.
Good thread!


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## bigpaul (Jun 16, 2012)

during WW2 houses in Britain had blackout curtains (drapes to you), so thick that no light could be seen from outside( any lights showing would have helped enemy bombers), you had to pull the curtains/drapes first before you turned on the lights, they used to have wardens who used to tell you to"put that light out!"


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

*Why ?*



bigpaul said:


> during WW2 houses in Britain had blackout curtains (drapes to you), so thick that no light could be seen from outside( any lights showing would have helped enemy bombers), you had to pull the curtains/drapes first before you turned on the lights, they used to have wardens who used to tell you to"put that light out!"


I am wondering what the purpose was? If bombers were flying overhead, would they bomb areas where they thought there were people, and the people had lights on?


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

weedygarden said:


> I am wondering what the purpose was? If bombers were flying overhead, would they bomb areas where they thought there were people, and the people had lights on?


Yes, basically. In the days before guided bombs, they would aim for population centers. If there were no lights to mark a concentration of people, bomber crews would have to go off of a best guess or whatever spotty intel they may have had prior to beginning the run.


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## 101airborne (Jan 29, 2010)

BillS said:


> I think you're better off leaving the lights off. Especially if you have to hide out in your safe room. Dump some old newspapers and some empty coke bottles in your yard. Save up a bunch of junk mail and put it in your mail box.


 I agree, and if it is a severe situation maybe even keep some old clothing and other articles to toss around the porch and yard to make the place look looted as well.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

lazydaisy67 said:


> This is just me, but when I have heard bumps in the night, I generally shut off any lights before I investigate. I guess I figure I can see somebody better if they're lurking outside if I don't have any light behind me. I don't want to have to get right up close to the windows to peer out and have somebody standing there looking at me (shudder). Now this is with electricity and we have a yard light that turns on at dusk. No electricity out where I live would be pitch black....and I mean pitch! Unless somebody had a flashlight, which would be insanely obvious to anybody in the house, they'd not only get my dogs wound up but would trip on misc. things in my yard (thanks, kids) and either twist an ankle or bang their knees on something.
> I kinda think it would be better to make your house/yard look like you had abandoned the place even to the point of scattering clothing out on the lawn and putting up plywood on some of the windows. Make it look as "looted" as possible so when people come by they think it's a waste of time to stop and look. Lights at night would be a no-no in my book unless you had blackened out your windows with plastic garbage bags or some such other thing.
> Good thread!


If your yard is dark at night it would be good to have some rakes left out. The kind with the hard steel teeth. You leave it so the steel teeth are facing up. If somebody steps on it right the handle will come up and hit them in the head.


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## db2469 (Jun 11, 2012)

Bill...you've just got to stop watching "The Three Stooges" reruns all day!
DB


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

There's something else to think about: You could look at what everyone else is doing and do the same. If 90% of houses have their lights on then maybe it makes sense to do the same so you don't stand out. By lights that probably means candle light. In that case having your lights on means you're home but that doesn't necessarily mean you have food. If none of your neighbors have candles lit you don't want to either.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

db2469 said:


> Bill...you've just got to stop watching "The Three Stooges" reruns all day!
> DB


I can't help it! I have a sophisticated sense of humor! I like to think that the smarter you are the more childish humor you like.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

My solution is

Live where I can sustain myself and provide for my needs.
Out of sight from casual observation.
Stop intruders from getting close enough to see my home, lights or resources. It's called private property for a reason.
Others solutions will vary depending on the choices they have made regarding where and how they choose to live.


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## ContinualHarvest (Feb 19, 2012)

Beaniemaster2 said:


> Boy, this is a good one...
> 
> Lights on, they know they'll have someone to contend with...
> 
> ...


 We have one sign on our property that says "Nevermind the dog, beware of homeowner" with a gun on it.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

ContinualHarvest said:


> We have one sign on our property that says "Nevermind the dog, beware of homeowner" with a gun on it.


So now intruders know to just shoot you on sight and where to go to steal guns when you are not home.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

If you have prowlers on the property now, turn the lights outside on and the lights inside off.

If you have prowlers on the property after a collapse of sociaty, I would not draw prowlers by showing any lights until they were on the property and then I would let them know I was home and tell them to go away that I had nothing to give them and was very sick. If they persisted they would see my sign on the porch that said , 
CAUTION ,Active Aids Paitent, Blood Born Pathigen Protection Required.

A red "Hazardous Waste Bag" or two with bloody bandages at the door will complete the effect.

If they still keep coming, then I would use deadly force if absolutly necisary.


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## db2469 (Jun 11, 2012)

Good suggestions everyone...thanks! If I were part of a group in a farmhouse, for instance, with a group of able bodied and armed folks, I would not have to decide if the lights will be on or off as I'd feel safer in that group instead of just my wife and me but so far I've not found a group in northern PA but I will continue to try and meanwhile prepare my "safe room" which I hope does not become a misnomer when the SHTF...
DB


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## Emerald (Jun 14, 2010)

BillS said:


> If your yard is dark at night it would be good to have some rakes left out. The kind with the hard steel teeth. You leave it so the steel teeth are facing up. If somebody steps on it right the handle will come up and hit them in the head.


haha.. those rakes screw up snowmobiles really well too.. When the jerk said he was gonna sue me for messing up his machine I told him to go ahead.. I would sue for trespassing on my property and I would get $5000 for it. and after he stormed off and yelled at me something I didn't quite catch I did holler back.. Thanks for finding my rake.. I left it in the yard and it snowed and we didn't think we'd find it till spring.. stay out of my yard.. I hate snowmobile-rs.. they are rude trespassing jerks around here. They run them with almost no snow and dig up my lawn.. ARGH!!!:gaah:


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## Axelight (Apr 21, 2012)

BillM said:


> If you have prowlers on the property now, turn the lights outside on and the lights inside off.
> 
> If you have prowlers on the property after a collapse of sociaty, I would not draw prowlers by showing any lights until they were on the property and then I would let them know I was home and tell them to go away that I had nothing to give them and was very sick. If they persisted they would see my sign on the porch that said ,
> CAUTION ,Active Aids Paitent, Blood Born Pathigen Protection Required.
> ...


What a great idea, Bill! The hazardous waste bag / bloody bandage thing would be a definite turn off for most would be intruders, something I never thought of. Another idea, as long as electronics can still run, is investing in a pair of night vision goggles/monocular, so you can clearly see the intruder's proximity, numbers, etc, without them seeing you. In a post SHTF scenario, I am guessing that night watch will be a security necessity for most families.


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## benjaminblake (Jun 25, 2012)

You can cover all your windows with black screens and stay put inside.


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## musketjim (Dec 7, 2011)

My biggest concern up here isn't the electric lights, it's the woodsmoke trying to stay warm. I've felt it's best to be invisible and mobile but here in interior Alaska very difficult. Snowmobiles are noisy and where there's fire there's smoke. Tough call, good subject.


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## bahramthered (Mar 10, 2012)

For me the question would be how desperate are things locally and can you hold against people?

If you think your gonna be dealing with one or two guys breaking into houses to loot cupboards I'd keep the lights on.

If your afraid of starving mobs I'd keep the lights off.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

Lights on or off after a SHTF?

Lights on if you have a large security detail that can defined the place (like a couple thousand US Marines).

Lights off if you don't have a large security detail that can defined the place (like a couple thousand US Marines).


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## d_saum (Jan 17, 2012)

Emerald said:


> haha.. those rakes screw up snowmobiles really well too.. When the jerk said he was gonna sue me for messing up his machine I told him to go ahead.. I would sue for trespassing on my property and I would get $5000 for it. and after he stormed off and yelled at me something I didn't quite catch I did holler back.. Thanks for finding my rake.. I left it in the yard and it snowed and we didn't think we'd find it till spring.. stay out of my yard.. I hate snowmobile-rs.. they are rude trespassing jerks around here. They run them with almost no snow and dig up my lawn.. ARGH!!!:gaah:


Whaaaaaa????? Where the heck do you live? If it were me, I'd be putting up no trespassing signs and take some sort of action... I got mad just from reading your post!!!!


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## d_saum (Jan 17, 2012)

After SHTF... Lights off! make the house look abandoned as others have mentioned! Especially if the power is out for the rest of the folks! I'd never want to advertise that I was more prepared than most. Just blend in with the rest of the sheep and act confused.. 


Prior to SHTF.. just do what you normally do.


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## Emerald (Jun 14, 2010)

d_saum said:


> Whaaaaaa????? Where the heck do you live? If it were me, I'd be putting up no trespassing signs and take some sort of action... I got mad just from reading your post!!!!


I have them up.. the last time they came thru(not this last winter but the winter before) I came running out of the house and swung by big snow shovel at them the two on the end saw me freaked out and I have to say.. those 5 haven't been near my yard since. and not one other snowmobile came in my yard last year/aka this last winter. So I have an idea that they knew I was PO'ed they have, so far, been going on the other side of the road.
But for years I'd put up my no trespassing signs only to have them stolen or when I put them on big stakes in their "trail" they would just run them over. This was after the rake .
That same jerk tried to say that they could go where ever they wanted when it snowed... HUH:gaah: idiots. 
I did go to the local snowmobile club and bitch.. they told me that 100% that their members do not do that. They were also as PO'd as I was as those types of idiots get them banned from their own leases of trails along the farm lands. They also said that they would pass along my message that I would press charges on the next group I catch on my land even if I have to follow them for miles to find them..


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## bahramthered (Mar 10, 2012)

You should have been nice and cherfully accepted when they came to complain about the rakes and got their names. Then smile viciously and ask about your lawsuit for trespassing?


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

*wire across the trail for tresspassing snowmobilers*

There must be regular trails that they use. So what would happen if you put up posts, with a wire strung between the two and a sign hanging on the wire?


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## Emerald (Jun 14, 2010)

weedygarden said:


> There must be regular trails that they use. So what would happen if you put up posts, with a wire strung between the two and a sign hanging on the wire?


 I would have to get a permit for a "fence" to put that up.. I live in a small 4 way stop town.. bar/store/beauty salon. There are about 6 to 8 houses per side and from each way of the stop signs. We are considered rural tho as our village is now pretty just four little signs that have the name.. we don't even have our post office any longer.. 
They are not supposed to be on the road and I have no problems with them going down the side of the road I can deal with that.. but the coming right up to our houses by 3 feet(my home is at least 40 or feet from the road) and cutting across my flower/veggy gardens is stressful.

but back to topic. I have been making and using window quilts for our windows in the winter.. I have the stuff to make them for all the windows and just haven't gotten around to quilting them all.. lazy me most of them are pinned together already and we hang them that way. I got the material super cheap and it is pretty enuf to look at all the time.. but we have very old windows and can not afford to buy all new so we have been replacing one or two at a time. We are putting in the same size as they are now so have to special order them.
While they do very well at blocking the light and the cold and even the hot sun(I have pinned survival blankets to them hot windows in the summer and my it really cuts the heat coming in those windows).
they do not block super bright lights like my big overheads but SHTF they do block candle light and low lights. 
Hubby said about the light and wanting to block so people can't just look in the house that maybe looking while out yard saleing for the light blocking curtains to line them with too. to really get them dark.
We are a pretty okay little town.. while not super chummy we sure do stick together when it is needed.. we've all had our mini SHTFs already and work well together.. so I think if it comes down to it.. we will probably go lights on unless our early warning system goes off then it will be batten down the hatches, lights out.


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## d_saum (Jan 17, 2012)

Emerald said:


> I would have to get a permit for a "fence" to put that up.. I live in a small 4 way stop town.. bar/store/beauty salon. There are about 6 to 8 houses per side and from each way of the stop signs. We are considered rural tho as our village is now pretty just four little signs that have the name.. we don't even have our post office any longer..


lol.. Ok.. so now you have me extremely curious.. where the heck do you live? :scratch Obviously... you do not have to tell me the exact name of he town.. but are you in Alaska? Upstate NY? North Dakota?


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

Emerald said:


> When the jerk said he was gonna sue me for messing up his machine I told him to go ahead.. I would sue for trespassing on my property and I would get $5000 for it. and after he stormed off and yelled at me


Around here he'd have been looking down a gun barrel and not said a word. Around here property rights are respected the police will not cross a property line without a valid warrant. Twice I have had people snivel to the police that I had made them lay down spread eagle in the mud at gun point. Both times the police called me from the edge of my property and asked me to come out to them. Both times they told their story both times the police let them know I had the legal right to shoot them and asked me if I wanted to press charges. The second time I had the bitch arrested and her kids were picked up by CPS. Had they been damaging my property I'd have called a meat wagon to come pick them up. Four people have been killed in Washington this year for being where they did not belong no charges filed.



TheLazyL said:


> Lights off if you don't have a large security detail that can defined the place (like a couple thousand US Marines).


Depends on your terrain, level of planning. Our home is in a geographically defensible location. Both away from any town and where the terrain benefits our security. On the military crest of a hill. A steep 900 foot cliff makes the property inaccessible from one side. The only practical access to the property is a defensible two mile dirt road. If SHTF, our permitter begins two miles from the property. It would require a full scale military assault with artillery to make it up that road if it is being defended. Anyone else will feel like the Persians at the battle of Thermopylae. It sure will not take a thousand anything to defend our property


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## Emerald (Jun 14, 2010)

I live in the middle Michigan. Farmland all around.. from corn to beans to cows to pigs to buffalo to apple/peach/blueberry/strawberry farms. 
About 30 miles to the nearest edge of Grand Rapids. 
There is state land about 5 miles away that is more than welcome for snowmobiles and the Club riders have designated areas that they lease/borrow etc legally from farmers to get to and from the state land. These are just jerks who think they can do what they want.. the jerk who got the rake.. well later that summer he came thru my yard on a freaking 4wheelATV with a smaller one behind him that his little 8 year old son was on.. they wanted ice cream from the little corner store. I waited for them and gave him another piece of my mind. not a helmet on either of them.. Idiots raising more idiots. But he has not bothered to come thru our small town again.
There is a way around the fence thing tho.. if I could afford it I am allowed to put up snow fencing without permit.. I just don't have the cash to buy it.. Where I am I have to get a township permit to go down to the country seat to get a permit.. is that screwed up or what?


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

Look this is realy pretty simple.
If you don't want to draw attention from a distance don't show lights but once they are in your yard, they are looking for somthing to eat , gasoline or a place to stay. If you hide in the house and make it look empty, they will break in. At this point I would deffinatly let them know I was home and tell them to go away. If someone is banging on your door and they are considering breaking in , they are trying to see if someone is home. If you don't let them know you are there they will break in for sure.
The important thing is to let them know you are armed and do not let them know you are any better off than anyone else.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

musketjim said:


> My biggest concern up here isn't the electric lights, it's the woodsmoke trying to stay warm. I've felt it's best to be invisible and mobile but here in interior Alaska very difficult. Snowmobiles are noisy and where there's fire there's smoke. Tough call, good subject.


That's the big reason I prefer kerosene heaters to burning wood. You can also move the heaters to where you need them. You could use one in your basement if it gets below 45º down there.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

BillM said:


> Look this is realy pretty simple.
> If you don't want to draw attention from a distance don't show lights but once they are in your yard, they are looking for somthing to eat , gasoline or a place to stay. If you hide in the house and make it look empty, they will break in. At this point I would deffinatly let them know I was home and tell them to go away. If someone is banging on your door and they are considering breaking in , they are trying to see if someone is home. If you don't let them know you are there they will break in for sure.
> The important thing is to let them know you are armed and do not let them know you are any better off than anyone else.


If you have to shoot someone who's breaking into your house then all the blood on your porch or sidewalk will serve as a deterrent to others.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*It would deter me !*



BillS said:


> If you have to shoot someone who's breaking into your house then all the blood on your porch or sidewalk will serve as a deterrent to others.


It would deter me ! Also the grave in the front yard with a marker that said "Looter" would also serve as a deterent.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

BillS said:


> If you have to shoot someone who's breaking into your house then all the blood on your porch or sidewalk will serve as a deterrent to others.


Or the body(s) hanging from the tree(s) with a sign around their necks, "Looter disposed of, courtesy of the USMC"


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## Jack Aubrey (May 24, 2009)

For "non- criminal" types, things would have to get rather desperate for them to cross the line in their minds to start looting houses, lights on or off. There is a vast segment of our society that would ALREADY be looting stores and homes , if it weren't for the fear of getting caught.
Warning signs alerting looters of the owners presence, and determination to defend his/ her property have worked in past WROL situations. Criminals will always go for easy targets. Any chance of getting shot tends to steer them elsewhere.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

Emerald said:


> These are just jerks who think they can do what they want.. the jerk who got the rake.. well later that summer he came thru my yard on a freaking 4wheelATV


Why have you not shot this A Hole? Or at least made him lay in the snow spread eagle at gun point until the police arrive. Really does not make any sense to me. Michigan has a Castle doctrine. If some one was charging at me in vehicle damaging my property I would be in fear that I was the subject of a criminal attack especially after they had repeatedly threatened to do me harm. Shoot him next time he criminally trespasses and endangers your safety and well being.


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## d_saum (Jan 17, 2012)

BillM said:


> It would deter me ! Also the grave in the front yard with a marker that said "Looter" would also serve as a deterent.


Hmmm.... Good idea. When/if the SHTF, just make a fake grave with a headstone/wood sign that says "Looter". I like it! And if it's really bad and people start dropping like flies, (before you even have to shoot anyone) just go grab a corpse and hang it from a noose with a sign (like LazyL stated). Gruesome I know.. but if it deters actual looters, I'm all for it.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

d_saum said:


> Hmmm.... Good idea. When/if the SHTF, just make a fake grave with a headstone/wood sign that says "Looter". I like it! And if it's really bad and people start dropping like flies, (before you even have to shoot anyone) just go grab a corpse and hang it from a noose with a sign (like LazyL stated). Gruesome I know.. but if it deters actual looters, I'm all for it.


I am not a raider or looter but it seems if I was, all that no trespassing I have a gun signs would do is tell me:
A) This is someone who has what I need to stay alive
B) To shoot you at the very first opportunity. 
So devise a plan. Maybe show up with a crying starving or injured child. Maybe break their arm and come banging on the door desperate for help. As soon as the door opens blast you. Than help myself, leave the kid with your corpse or take over your home. Stack you and the kid with the bodies you already have out there.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

d_saum said:


> Hmmm.... Good idea. When/if the SHTF, just make a fake grave with a headstone/wood sign that says "Looter". I like it! And if it's really bad and people start dropping like flies, (before you even have to shoot anyone) just go grab a corpse and hang it from a noose with a sign (like LazyL stated). Gruesome I know.. but if it deters actual looters, I'm all for it.


A corpse hanging in the yard might have a negitive Fung Swey .


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## Emerald (Jun 14, 2010)

LongRider said:


> Why have you not shot this A Hole? Or at least made him lay in the snow spread eagle at gun point until the police arrive. Really does not make any sense to me. Michigan has a Castle doctrine. If some one was charging at me in vehicle damaging my property I would be in fear that I was the subject of a criminal attack especially after they had repeatedly threatened to do me harm. Shoot him next time he criminally trespasses and endangers your safety and well being.


He hasn't been in my yard since I chewed his hinny in front of his child. I did threaten to beat him with rake I had in my hands. The sheriff's deputy told me that I could not hit them or shoot them on my property unless they actually hit me with the machine ...


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## bahramthered (Mar 10, 2012)

A less dramatic method might be smoking you out with tear gas or a smoke bomb. 

BTW anyone else see that and just wonder if it's bravado? I mean I wouldn't go strolling up to check, but I might watch and see if the signs are suppose to scare me off.


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## Jack Aubrey (May 24, 2009)

LongRider said:


> I am not a raider or looter but it seems if I was, all that no trespassing I have a gun signs would do is tell me:
> A) This is someone who has what I need to stay alive
> B) To shoot you at the very first opportunity.
> So devise a plan. Maybe show up with a crying starving or injured child. Maybe break their arm and come banging on the door desperate for help. As soon as the door opens blast you. Than help myself, leave the kid with your corpse or take over your home. Stack you and the kid with the bodies you already have out there.


You are assuming your OPlan will survive the initial contact. I also have a plan, and a back up plan, and about three or four contingency plans, and finally a "Hail Mary" plan, if it looks like we are going to be over run.
We saw you coming with that kid a block away. While you are "banging on the door , desperate for help" we have 3 cross hairs on you. Yeah, in those bushes, behind you. BOOM!***Pink mist****


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

Jack Aubrey said:


> You are assuming your OPlan will survive the initial contact. I also have a plan, and a back up plan, and about three or four contingency plans, and finally a "Hail Mary" plan, if it looks like we are going to be over run.
> We saw you coming with that kid a block away. While you are "banging on the door , desperate for help" we have 3 cross hairs on you. Yeah, in those bushes, behind you. BOOM!***Pink mist****


Nope cause my super dupper ninja turtles thermal visions scoped em all out an eye zapped em into green dust before I got to the door...... Whatever

Seriously the point is why post a sign saying I got stuff and a warning that you are armed.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

Emerald said:


> He hasn't been in my yard since I chewed his hinny in front of his child. I did threaten to beat him with rake I had in my hands. The sheriff's deputy told me that I could not hit them or shoot them on my property unless they actually hit me with the machine ...


I could be wrong. Definitely do not act based upon some goof on the internet say. I suggest you check with a lawyer, as I believe your being if fear that you will be harmed in your domain is what the Castle Doctrine and stand your ground is fear of being harmed in a place you have a right to be is all about. I am sure that someone invading your property and charging at you in a snow mobile or ATV would cause you to be scared to death that they might kill or grievously injure you. 
In Washington State it was explained to me that it breaks down into three elements would a reasonable man agree that
A) Do you have a right to be at the place this occurred
B) In the case of your home the assailant come onto your property without your consent or invitation
C) That you were in fear of being killed or grievously injured
If the answers to all those are true than lethal force is justified. Your AG may interpret the law to mean something else. So check with a "GOOD" lawyer, than blast his ass the next time he intentionally endangers your life on your property.


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## Emerald (Jun 14, 2010)

LongRider said:


> I could be wrong. Definitely do not act based upon some goof on the internet say. I suggest you check with a lawyer, as I believe your being if fear that you will be harmed in your domain is what the Castle Doctrine and stand your ground is fear of being harmed in a place you have a right to be is all about. I am sure that someone invading your property and charging at you in a snow mobile or ATV would cause you to be scared to death that they might kill or grievously injure you.
> In Washington State it was explained to me that it breaks down into three elements would a reasonable man agree that
> A) Do you have a right to be at the place this occurred
> B) In the case of your home the assailant come onto your property without your consent or invitation
> ...


I certainly would not shoot or beat them unless I was in fear.. see I knew that he was not out to hurt me he was just too damned lazy to go the long way around. plus the three acres next to me used to be the old school yard.. well the building was too old to save and they burned it down and put up a small township building but the little wooded area and swings and playground stuff is still there for the community to use. Well since the township doesn't care if people use their quads and golf carts etc they seem to think that my yard is okay to run around on too. even with the disappearing signs.. 
Now the little kids who slide down the hills in the winter or play in the wooded area that joins in my wooded area are not a big deal at least I know them all and am here if they need me.
But good news for me. The township has been given a small grant to fence the area in for the safety of the children.. that should cut out the folks using my yard as a cut across.
I know almost everyone in about an 8 mile radius of this town.. sheesh I've lived here since 1969. But there are a few new little "subdivisions" way out in the middle of the fields about 7 to 8 miles away and closer to the bigger city.. it looks strange.. farm/orchard/fields of crops and bam.. 10 homes on their own private road plonked down. All mini McMansions with yuppies who have more money than brains. I have a feeling that this is where these morons are coming from.. they all have huge outbuildings with either big honking speed boats or even sailboats and all kinds of ATV stuff. 
These are the same folks who complain about the farmers on tractors blocking the roads and the manure spreading. hahahahaha.. idiots every freaking one.
I can see them having every light on and being a huge draw for lowlifes after SHTF. haha they even have these little lights next to each and every window on their homes.. 
People if you are that afraid of the dark don't move out to the country! I would love to take some pictures of their homes and post them they look like UFOS. but don't wanna screw with their privacy.


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## Ration-AL (Apr 18, 2012)

Jack Aubrey said:


> For "non- criminal" types, things would have to get rather desperate for them to cross the line in their minds to start looting houses, lights on or off. There is a vast segment of our society that would ALREADY be looting stores and homes , if it weren't for the fear of getting caught.
> Warning signs alerting looters of the owners presence, and determination to defend his/ her property have worked in past WROL situations. Criminals will always go for easy targets. Any chance of getting shot tends to steer them elsewhere.


i agree with this and just want to say you should be using a candle for lighting and not electricity, electricity should be conserved for more important things as opposed to giving off light, if anything only use the electricity to charge your flash light or something, the fuel used to run the genny is a complete waste just used for lighting....

that said, i think a few candles burning inside would be enough light to let others know your home but not broadcast it out 10 miles, if you think about it , when your up on a ridge looking down and someone is using an electrical light you can see that from ages away and like the well founded fears attract some unwanted visitors, yep, i personally think either window curtains and flashlights or just using candles .... but make it the place look occupied, people that are good and honest won't bother you because they know someones there and move on to the next place looking for abandoned items, and most criminals will move on to easier targets as criminals are smarter then you guys give them credit for, they understand that if they are dead they can't reap the rewards of their theft and will move on to easy targets...and well then you got the psycho's who just don't care and really these are the sorts you got to watch out for...

i also think you're kidding yourself that things won't be desperate enough for the average joe to start going from door to door looking for people who fled or abandoned their home, When shtf possession will be 100% of the law, that's just the way it goes, again look at katrina , you had people who stayed behind and moved into some of the abandoned houses ..
http://texasfred.net/archives/451

as soon as some people hit the road, looters and squatters moved in, and this wasn't even a nation wide shtf, this was localized and they are still having a hard time getting some of these people out.

also an article about the morality of looting....
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/weekinreview/07mcneil.html?_r=1

and not really related but a good read, a report on Katrina
http://www.law.berkeley.edu/library/disasters/Anderson.pdf


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## Jack Aubrey (May 24, 2009)

LongRider said:


> Nope cause my super dupper ninja turtles thermal visions scoped em all out an eye zapped em into green dust before I got to the door...... Whatever
> 
> Seriously the point is why post a sign saying I got stuff and a warning that you are armed.


DRAT! I hate those super duper ninja thermal things! :gaah: Foiled again! :surrender:

Yes, it is a good point. On one hand, invisibility is the best option...if invisibility *IS* an option. However, if one can not bug out, for whatever reason, and looters are systematically going house to house, putting up a "show of strength and determination, *MAY* deter the majority of them. Of course, there's always that one who will try to call your bluff...make him as an example. JA


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## tugboats (Feb 15, 2009)

db2469 said:


> If there are people seeking food, water, etc after an economic collapse, do you think they would be more or less inclined to try to enter if they believed people were living there? It seems a dark house with no sound emitting would make them think that it has been abandoned and might not have anything to offer and leave it alone...on the other hand, they might see it as easy pickins if they believe there would be no resistance to their breaking & entering...
> DB


After a long discussion at the dinner table my youngest posed the answer to you question. The question was "what is everybody else doing in the area"? This is why we talk about situations as a family. Many different takes on the same subject.

If the people around me had on lights so would we.

If the people around me were blacked out so would we.

The last thing I would want to do is stand out from the crowd. Most of the people in my area would probably bug in if they had the resources. I will take my lead from the people around me. Even though the houses are not very close to each other they are all within sight. If my house were the only one that was lit up then I guess I would be the target. Just the inverse would be true as well.

If the surrounding properties were cleaned up....so would mine.

If the surrounding properties were scattered with trash, looked deserted or were in a state of disrepair.....mine would look the same.

If there was an abandoned home I would make that one stand out from the rest of homes. Kind of like a lure.

That is just my pretty two pennies worth but that only applies to my situation and location. Hunkering in will probably be my last resort. If we were to stand out from the other properties then my first priority would be to protect our perimeter as long as practical. At that point we could be overrun by a determined group. By protecting the perimeter we are brodcasting that the interior has a value. Lights on or off will not matter at that point.

As I am typing this several more questions have cropped up. Great question. Let us know what your final answer will be.

Tugs


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

Emerald said:


> I certainly would not shoot or beat them unless I was in fear.. see I knew that he was not out to hurt me .


Agreed, I would not shoot someone unless I felt threatened. You are just much braver than I. I would never trust my life or well being to the judgement of a certifiable moron who has displayed a total lack of consideration for my well being and property.



Emerald said:


> Now the little kids who slide down the hills in the winter or play in the wooded area that joins in my wooded area are not a big deal at least I know them all and am here if they need me.


Again we are talking about a moron who has less common decency, respect for life and the well being of others than little children have. So infantile he is probably incapable of distinguishing between a child's sled stopping at the edge of your property and a snow mobile plowing through your garden. I can almost hear a high pitched two year voice coming out of what appears an adult body. Just like a two years whining"Well"...... They can do it so why can't I?



Emerald said:


> All mini McMansions with yuppies who have more money than brains. I have a feeling that this is where these morons are coming from.. they all have huge outbuildings with either big honking speed boats or even sailboats and all kinds of ATV stuff.
> These are the same folks who complain about the farmers on tractors blocking the roads and the manure spreading. hahahahaha.. idiots every freaking one.


We have the same kind of yuppy scum sucking fecal maggots out here too. They move out into these gated McMansions estates out in the middle of the woods than freak because Fee Fee is cougar or bear bait. The next month the top news story is the hunt for the killer cougar or bear. Never occurs to them that they moved into the bear's and cougar's neighborhood. So of course the neighbors are going to visit on occasion. They need to keep their rodent terrier inside or better yet make a Lakota Taco or stew out of it. Or the same A-holes who move out to the mountains to be close to all the natural beauty than start demanding that some good ol boy chop down an old growth cedar because it is blocking their view. My wife had a land lord who cut down 20 old growth cedars down. Every one bigger around that a Ram truck is long. Every one here before Moses crossed the Red Sea, because of those maggots whining. Guy was an idiot too, each one of those trees was worth a new Ram Truck he bucked them all up for fire wood. Cedar fire wood, IDIOT!! Makes me want to have a have a Yuppie scum season or better yet classify them the same as feral hogs. Year round, no limit open season. Makes me sick to ride through the Cascade Mountains and see all those pockets of lights in the Mountains blotting out the stars.
OK sorry end rant. Those folks make me rabid. Thankfully on our hill everyone leaves the original inhabitants alone. We don't even hunt on our hill. There is plenty of land surrounding us to hunt. Our hill is a wildlife safe zone. In the decade we have been up here we have been lucky enough to see the cougar that lives up here twice and the bears visit a few times a year mostly when the berries are ripe. We keep our trash locked up mostly to keep the ***** out and the bears never bother the house. Try to live in harmony with the environment we cherish rather than wipe it out and turn it into a replica of the suburbia we escaped.


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## db2469 (Jun 11, 2012)

Tugs...you bring up some good points, thanks! I'm in a residential area in a town of 1700 and don't expect the level of looting others would get living in or close to a city...that said, even the usually mild-mannered small town folk will get desperate if they did not prep, which would apply to 98% of them here, and would be capable of violent actions to survive...I plan by default to bug in....I'm looking for a farmhouse where the wife and I could join the owners not only for more firepower but for the possible extended period of time where self-sufficency off the grid will be mandatory but so far can't find one near here..
DB


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

I go with the blackout of the windows idea. I mean every last flicker of light should be covered. Hard part is if you live in a location where it is cold in winter and "it" has hit the fan in winter, and you have a wood stove for heat or cooking, then this has to be something you could only do at night (if it is all dark in a SHTF scenario, and no one can see where the smoke is coming from?....). 

You would have to be sure your wood was fully dry and seasoned so it smoked as little as possible. using only dry tiny natural tinder to start the fire (paper as a starter smokes), start it small and slowly build it up, an immediate massing of tinder or wood will smoke.

The variables would be endless too. If you are going to make the place look abandoned (like boarded up windows), I would want a way to be able to see outside, and get out. 

I think overall, your 2nd Ammendment rights is something you should practise, because it is always possible no one way of doing things will keep looters and criminals out in a bad situation.


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