# Hey long timers, what was it like during the Brady Bill?



## biobacon (Aug 20, 2012)

Just wondring what it was like during the Brady Bill years. Im getting set to watch Shooting USA on Tv and I was wondering if all of this will go by the wayside or if it will just cost a lot more to be a gun person. You guys could still get bolt action and shotguns right in the 90s? I remember hearing that you had to wait 3 days to pick up a handgun. Things are just so gun friendly right now I was just thinking about what it will be like a couple years from now.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

About like it is now, fear, paranoia, panic buying/hoarding, wholesale distrust of the BATFE.


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## karlsgunbunker (Jan 31, 2012)

I was too busy with newborns and to broke to buy guns so didn't notice much.

I bought my SAR-1 in 2001 (during the ban) and it shoots just as well as my Post Ban AK's.
There were plenty of 30rd mags for sale with it.

The Libs won't make the same mistakes with a new ban but I don't think they have the Votes to pass it.
It's not 1994 and Gun Owners and Second Amendment supporters are awake and aware this time.
Also the recent Supreme Court decisions are very pro gun.
If you Read the Miller decision from the 30's "Military Firearms" are specifically protected by the Second Amendment.


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

The initial draft language that I've seen bandied about so far is pretty extreme... ANY detachable magazine, all the usual suspects with evil looking features on evil looking black rifles. 

Only now they are talking about banning magazine sales as well. The Brady Bill had a ten year sunset clause and thankfully by that time congress had switched poles and it's never been able to be successfully reintroduced... even today, despite all the rhetoric from deluded dilettantes like Diane Feinstein and good old Chucky Schuman and the (less than) honorable Joe Biden... even with Dem's holding a majority I'd have to know when the vote was going to be, what the final language of the bill is, and how close or far it is to mid term elections as well as which of the Dem's seats are up re-election and what states they represent. The faster they try to ram it through congress the better for us because it will not pass the house. 

And the BATFE earned their ugly reputation all by themselves, they weren't vilified by the press, that was all on their own. Even on Fast and Furious (which is a violation of truth in advertising laws, it should have been named slow and retarded) the press gave them a complete pass, except Fox.

The truth is that they can not protect the rights of the gun owner by infringing on the ability of current OR FUTURE gun owners by eliminating arms of any kind. 

They would be better off starting with overhauling the mental health system. The solutions these days seem to be drug people into a stupor so they are drooling and playing with finger paint OR, do nothing and turn them loose on society and act surprised when the voices in their head or simply the pressure of trying to exist in a culture they simply cant comprehend get so great that they are willing to take massive extremes to vent their anger and pain.

After they resolve that they should move on to improved security in schools and offices. I'm not making light of last week at all, but this is by far NOT the worst tragedy to be inflicted on children. In 2004 in Beslan 186 children were massacred. (terrorist attack)

Lets fix mental health, lets start doing what Israel (and at least one district in Texas) does and arm teachers, that's a great place to start as far as I'm concerned.

back to the original question, during the brady bill it was total BS. That's not how Americans rights are protected, and this time it will be only WORSE!


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

It was stupid an it sucked. But there was a light at the end a the tunnel. This time, I don't know. Pro's er gonna have ta speak an speak loud! I'm hopin there be a few smart people left.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

I wouldn't worry too much yet. There're still a lot of congress critters who remember the drubbing they got on the next election after passing the Brady Bill. Doesn't mean that they won't try but keep in contact with them and keep spreading the message that gun control doesn't work. I forward every pro-gun statement I can find on facebook and anywhere else I can. I've also been keeping an eye ont he comments on "news" stories. They're overwhelmingly pro-gun. Keep hammering at the futility of gun laws to curb crime. Keep hammering on your representatives as well. Let them hear us roar.


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## biobacon (Aug 20, 2012)

I just tried to buy some 25 round mags from Basspro shop., all I got was a not saying large capacity mags were banned in California. WTF? I realy dont want to wait 6 hours in line to buy 2 mags at my gun store. OK after note then you get buy now. Ok maybe not, now Im not sure what is going on with the site.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

karlsgunbunker said:


> I was too busy with newborns and to broke to buy guns so didn't notice much.
> 
> I bought my SAR-1 in 2001 (during the ban) and it shoots just as well as my Post Ban AK's.
> There were plenty of 30rd mags for sale with it.
> ...


I'll disassemble this a piece at a time. 

At the start of the ban lots of stuff was generally unavailable from what I recall. Prices on some guns are still elevated as a result of that stupidity combined with individual state bans. A secondary cause of price increases was that manufacturers had to change their processes or machining operations. Manufacturers had to find ways around the ban, as did importers. After that happened, lots of stuff was available again.

Magazines were available for some guns, but prices were elevated, in some cases well beyond reason. Magazines for some guns were just unavailable.

Mistakes???? What mistakes? If you mean tripping over their own ineptitude, they'll do that again, just in different ways.

In Heller vs. DC, the court stated that reasonable restrictions were ok. That means it's ok for them to require you to have a permit to own a gun, which is exactly what DC is doing to this day to inhibit gun ownership. By the way, the NRA tried repeatedly to derail that case, and only(reluctantly) joined in when it became clear that they would not be able to do so. The NRA did try to take the glory for it though.  As far as the rest of the rulings, the best I would consider them is "somewhat favorable" and at worst, no net gain. Finally, a change in justices could easily reverse any of these decisions.



> If you Read the Miller decision from the 30's "Military Firearms" are specifically protected by the Second Amendment


This deserves to be addressed specifically. One side(and only one side) of that case was presented when the government appealed the initial decision(which was favorable to gun owners). When the appeal came to court, neither Miller nor his attorney could be located, and so the court only heard the government's outright lies and based the decision on that alone(no research on their part, apparently). The truth was that sawed off shotguns and rifles were, in fact, used by military units during the civil war. There are many accounts of entire units being so equipped and absolutely decimating enemy encampments during surprise raids. Despite that, the court ruled that sawed off shotguns required a $200 tax since they weren't used by the military, thus validating the NFA. Most military personnel carrying an M16 today are carrying both a "short barreled rifle" and a "machinegun". Some also have a "destructive device" attached. If the Miller decision made any difference in our favor, we wouldn't be required to pay a $200 tax and jump through extra BS hoops to own such firearms.

As far as libs versus non libs in government.... EPIC LULZ! There are two colors, but only one team, and it ain't playin' for John Q. Public.


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## biobacon (Aug 20, 2012)

$67 for one 25 round mag for my tactical .22 on ebay? Saturday I could have got 3 30rd Mags at Dicks for $45. This is crazy


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

biobacon said:


> $67 for one 25 round mag for my tactical .22 on ebay? Saturday I could have got 3 30rd Mags at Dicks for $45. This is crazy


This is just the beginning


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## Jimmy24 (Apr 20, 2011)

Dakine said:


> This is just the beginning


Yep...I remember before. Prices went out the roof.

Jimmy


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Here is what I remember about the Brady Bill & AWB:

Yes, prices went through the roof. People were hoarding, business were price gouging and people were jumping on eBay to sell stuff for crazy prices (I once saw a new pre-ban G19 mag sell for $200). There was a lot of fear and people were even burying guns waiting for the total gun ban and subsequent confiscation to begin. 

Then we began to find the loopholes and exploit them. Pretty soon the AWB was almost pointless. For example, while some people were paying $125 for a pre-ban full capacity magazine. While others were buying individual magazine repair/replacement parts and essentially replacing each "worn out part" on their magazines until it was new. Others were using those same parts to (illegally) manufacture a full capacity magazine that could in no way be distinguished from a pre-ban magazine. That is just one example, but there are many many others. It was less of a ban and more of new set of rules to work around.

On the positive side of things, manufacturers decided that since guns could not have a capacity over 10 rounds why not start making some new and awesome compact guns. Many of the new mini-9's and other compact autos only came into existence because of that 10 years of stupidity. Revolvers made a come back and even broke the 6-shooter limitation with guns like the S&W 686+. The 1911 and lever guns also had a resurgence. If there was no AWB I doubt that the 1911 market would be as prolific as it is. The high capacity wonder 9's were growing in popularity at a crazy rate, until they were no longer high capacity.

But rest assured the Dems saw the limitations and failures of the BB/AWB too. And you can bet this time they are going to try and close those loopholes. If they can.


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

Sentry18 said:


> Here is what I remember about the Brady Bill & AWB:
> 
> Yes, prices went through the roof. People were hoarding, business were price gouging and people were jumping on eBay to sell stuff for crazy prices (I once saw a new pre-ban G19 mag sell for $200). There was a lot of fear and people were even burying guns waiting for the total gun ban and subsequent confiscation to begin.
> 
> ...


Question for you Sentry! 

which of the compact models would you personally carry if you were a civilian with no particular benefits of LEO?

I was looking at the S&W Bodyguard in .380 and at first I thought I could get that here, and a shop that is owned and run by and for Marines carries them, but it turns out it's not a CA listed gun so even as a First Responder (a qualifying ability to buy it) I still wasnt able to buy. I'd have had to been LEO with a dept letterhead note from the chief stating it was okay for me to buy that gun in order for them to import it into this state.

I'm now back to thinking G26 in 9mm. I'm not a huge fan of 9mm personally, although I own many of them. If I had my druthers in combat, I'd rather have 230 grains of love going down range than 115.

If I get the pocket glock, I need to think about a laser sight, hopefully there's one that replaces the rod spring guide... still.. I dunno.

For now, I have a S&W .40 and that would work fine, but CCW here is strictly verbotten unless you're drinking buddies with the sheriff...


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

biobacon said:


> Just wondring what it was like during the Brady Bill years. Im getting set to watch Shooting USA on Tv and I was wondering if all of this will go by the wayside or if it will just cost a lot more to be a gun person. You guys could still get bolt action and shotguns right in the 90s? I remember hearing that you had to wait 3 days to pick up a handgun. Things are just so gun friendly right now I was just thinking about what it will be like a couple years from now.


Ban never ended here in my state!

Its just stupid. Here it means that KEWL features like a bayonet lugs are no nos, and that the price of things that are necessary for serious home defense, like high capacity mags, go WAY up.

The "Assault weapon" ban is just about STUPID externals that play no significant role in the operation of a weapon. I supposed the only one that makes ANY sense is the ban on flash hiders, but I bet in all the years of the ban NEVER, and I mean NEVER did that ban protect or save a life. Maybe once in 3 decades will you get an active shooter, shooting covertly from concealment or distance where the absence of a flash hider would matter.

Except for a "no detachable mags" rule like Kalifornication or all out confiscation, even if an "A"WB went through I don't think it would have any serious effect except to increase the value of my pre-ban weapons by 30%. to 60% . Here we spend $500 or so more to by an old used pre-ban rifle if we want to have all the cool features.


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## Glock4myEMT (Dec 15, 2012)

WELL, it sucked. I have a ton of glock mags that say LE restricted / military only. Try telling Cartels no high-cap mags and no military looking guns. What a waste of time and paper. Be safe everyone!


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

it's a shame that most people today will never see the free America that I grew up in, I could get on the school bus with my 22 or shot gun, keep it in the coat rm til after school and get off the bus with a friend anywhere on the route and go hunting. most boys carried a jack knife or hunting knife on their belt to school. 

we have the most laws, the most cops and judges, the most prisons than anyplace in the world and we have the most problems.. Anyone care to guess what our problem might be?


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

Glock4myEMT said:


> WELL, it sucked. I have a ton of glock mags that say LE restricted / military only. Try telling Cartels no high-cap mags and no military looking guns. What a waste of time and paper. Be safe everyone!


ONce a serious ban is in place the Cartels will be selling the millitary guns rather than buying them.


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## LonestarSheepdog (Oct 29, 2012)

lotsoflead said:


> we have the most laws, the most cops and judges, the most prisons than anyplace in the world and we have the most problems.. Anyone care to guess what our problem might be?


I'm new here but I'll take a crack at this question

*A loss of moral values and compassion for our fellow man.*

I'm only in my late 30's but even I see dramatic changes in our society that scare me. Everywhere I look there is some form of media (movies, news, games) glorifying violence and/or sensationalizing the people performing those acts.

Who can name one victim, without looking, of the Oklahoma Federal Building or of Columbine High School tragedies? Sadly most people can only remember the name the of criminal(s).


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

lotsoflead said:


> it's a shame that most people today will never see the free America that I grew up in, I could get on the school bus with my 22 or shot gun, keep it in the coat rm til after school and get off the bus with a friend anywhere on the route and go hunting.


There are quite a few of us here at PS that remember those days.


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

They was better times fer sure. Sure do miss the good ol days.


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

What was the old saw

GOd Guns and Guts made america free.

All three have been removed, whittled down or are under steady attack. And the US is headed to the crapper. Maybe all three need to be gotten back where they belong and things could be improved.


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

Gettin ta be to many folks don't wan't no part a any of em. Bunch a yeller bellies runnin the country an a even bigger bunch supportin em!


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

> Question for you Sentry! Which of the compact models would you personally carry if you were a civilian with no particular benefits of LEO? I was looking at the S&W Bodyguard in .380 and at first I thought I could get that here, and a shop that is owned and run by and for Marines carries them, but it turns out it's not a CA listed gun so even as a First Responder (a qualifying ability to buy it) I still wasnt able to buy. I'd have had to been LEO with a dept letterhead note from the chief stating it was okay for me to buy that gun in order for them to import it into this state.


Reply sent via PM


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

biobacon said:


> Just wondring what it was like during the Brady Bill years. ....


Wasn't any problems for me. I already had what was need plus.

My idea is to plan ahead, get what is needed, stay ahead of the ball and not be reactive after a ban, no "the sky is falling" mentaility.

Federal government will continue to push and squeeze until they get their own way, just like an adolescent testing the will of the parents.

Unfortunately I lost all in a canoe accident&#8230;.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

jsriley5 said:


> ...God Guns and Guts made America free.....


Agreed.

God. Too many wonder how God would allow children to be killed in schools and they are the ones that had God removed from schools.

Guts. Many don't want to lose their disability, unemployment, social security, food stamps, welfare checks and other "entitlements". "Free men" completely under the control of their government.

Guns. The last of the triad to fall and the EOTWAWKI.


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## valannb22 (Jan 6, 2012)

Kids and teachers in school are still free to pray to God and are free to read the bible at school in their free time. As I said before, there are even several copies of the bible available for check out in the library at my kids' school. Teachers are not allowed to force children to do so, and are not allowed to take up class time to do so. There is a BIG difference. As far as that goes, isn't the responsibility of us as parents to teach our kids morals and values at home? Even if the bible were completely banned on school grounds, shouldn't you be reading it at home with your family if you are a believer? If we are laying a moral foundation at home, that doesn't fly out the window as soon as our kids walk through a school door just because they aren't participating in teacher led prayer during the school day.


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

They take god out of it every day in the SO CALLED science classes. Tell em they are just a random occurence when germs became plants and plants became animals and animals became man. So yeah the Schools actively fight what kids are being taught at home. And some of them swallow it hook line and sinker and decide to kill folks and somtimes themselves.


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## valannb22 (Jan 6, 2012)

Evolution doesn't make kids go on shooting sprees. The VAST majority of people that commit murder in this country are Christians and believe in God. Stop trying to blame science for the actions of a few mentally ill people. Nobody has ever gone to science class, heard the theory of evolution, and then randomly decided that they came from a germ and started shooting people.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

valannb22 said:


> .. The VAST majority of people that commit murder in this country are Christians and believe in God. ....


Wowzers!

You ain't from the midwest are you?


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

valannb22 said:


> Kids and teachers in school are still free to pray to God and are free to read the bible at school in their free time...


You are from the midwest....


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## valannb22 (Jan 6, 2012)

I am right in the middle of the Bible Belt.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

> Evolution doesn't make kids go on shooting sprees.


Correct, the constant bombardment and confusion of the politically correct mindset does. As in no accountability, no restriction, no responsibility, no right, no wrong, everything goes, nothing is perverse, morality is in the eye of the beholder, etc., etc. While it may be an indirect causal relationship, there is no question that it is a factor in the increased mental health issues our country is facing. I see it every single day. Some of these kids (or adults) kill themselves and some kill others, but all of them are lost and confused with no idea of where to turn. And with the liberally corrupt world of today, it's not surprising. I have been to 3 suicides this month, none of them grew up in Christian households.


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## valannb22 (Jan 6, 2012)

You are making the assumption that not believing in a higher power means that we have no morals or sense of right and wrong. You don't need God to be a good person. I live that every single day and see it among those like me. As a law enforcement officer, how many violent crimes have you had to investigate that were committed by Christians and those that grew up in Christian households? How does that number compare with those committed by outright atheists, and not just people who aren't regular church goers but still believe in a God or gods?


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## kejmack (May 17, 2011)

It was stupid and everyone knew it. The Brady Bill was a liberal "feel good" solution to the shooting. It didn't do a thing to make us safer and everyone knew it. The bad guys still had high cap mags and the other things that were outlawed. Mostly it put the police at a disadvantage.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

jsriley5 said:


> They take god out of it every day in the SO CALLED science classes. Tell em they are just a random occurence *when germs became plants and plants became animals and animals became man*. So yeah the Schools actively fight what kids are being taught at home. And some of them swallow it hook line and sinker and decide to kill folks and somtimes themselves.


You forgot the last part of that liberal evolution: *man becomes god*

Then once man becomes god he knows good from evil and decides what he does is good and not evil. There is no right and wrong except what he feels and he can justify homicide in his own mind. When man is god there is no accountability and no responsibility. This is the definition of evil.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

> You are making the assumption that not believing in a higher power means that we have no morals or sense of right and wrong. You don't need God to be a good person. I live that every single day and see it among those like me. As a law enforcement officer, how many violent crimes have you had to investigate that were committed by Christians and those that grew up in Christian households? How does that number compare with those committed by outright atheists, and not just people who aren't regular church goers but still believe in a God or gods?


I will restrict my comments about Chritianity to keep this thread from being moved to the religion section. We are already getting off topic as is.

But my point from above was that the culture of America has changed and it has moved away from God. In doing so the culture has become weak, mental illness and depravity have increased exponentially and people are working very hard to pretend that the major decline is someone or something else's fault. Yes there are Atheists with a moral compass, but that sense of right and wrong came from somewhere and likely from someone who had an influence on them. For the majority of people growing up over the last 20 years however there is no guide, only the world and it's corrupt sense of "whatever whenever" morality.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

valannb22 said:


> You are making the assumption that not believing in a higher power means that we have no morals or sense of right and wrong. You don't need God to be a good person. I live that every single day and see it among those like me. As a law enforcement officer, how many violent crimes have you had to investigate that were committed by Christians and those that grew up in Christian households? How does that number compare with those committed by outright atheists, and not just people who aren't regular church goers but still believe in a God or gods?


Out of curiousity, to an athiest, to who or what are you accountable for your morals? Who or what do you answer to? Who or what keeps you on a path of "good"? Who or what is your guide to determine what morals you try to live by?


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## valannb22 (Jan 6, 2012)

> For the majority of people growing up over the last 20 years however there is no guide, only the world and it's corrupt sense of "whatever whenever" morality


And that is where I feel the parents should come in. WE are responsible for teaching/guiding our kids at home. Whether it is coming from a particular religion or not, we as parents need to do our jobs and not rely on some virtual stranger to do it for us.

To Ant: I am not accountable to anyone other than myself or to the legal system if I happen to do something to break a law. I have to live with my own guilt if I choose to do something bad. I get my morals/values out of a sense of dignity, respect, and compassion for my fellow human beings. I try to put myself in the shoes of others and evaluate how I would feel if I was treated that way before I do it. I don't get to rely on the promise of forgiveness if I do something awful, and I don't get to count on a reward in an afterlife if I don't.


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

Thats another part of the problem is with many parents working more than one job and just about every household that still has two parents in it both of them are working the kids kinda get left out they don't get as much one on one time as kids in the past that were blessed with a stay at home mom and a dad that worked his 8 then was home for a sit down supper and pitch and catch before dark. I can't say I had that either and yeah I think I did OK but it is worse now than even my parents had it. Not excusing folks for not raising their kids but the socio economic situation is much different than in the days when we took our guns to school for school activities or so we could do things after school without going home first.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

OK, so what was it like during the Brady Bill? Well it was a utopia, since there were none of those scary black rifles everyone was safe! No? Thats not what happened? Oh.... imagine that.



valannb22 said:


> To Ant: I am not accountable to anyone other than myself or to the legal system if I happen to do something to break a law. I have to live with my own guilt if I choose to do something bad. I get my morals/values out of a sense of dignity, respect, and compassion for my fellow human beings. I try to put myself in the shoes of others and evaluate how I would feel if I was treated that way before I do it. I don't get to rely on the promise of forgiveness if I do something awful, and I don't get to count on a reward in an afterlife if I don't.


To a Christian (I can only speak from a Christian point of view) it would appear you have put yourself in the place of God. You decide what is good and what is bad and we all have to hope that your idea of what is good is good for the rest of us. Thats what I was referring to on the cycle of liberal evolution -- man becomes god. Folks like me can only hope you are a gracious, loving god who puts the needs of others before yourself otherwise you could easily justify doing some pretty bad (according to the Christian Bible) things. The Bible is my moral compass and clearly spells out right from wrong in most cases -- I can stray from that and even justify it in my own mind but in doing so I am only putting myself before God and whatever I do in this mode is evil and effectively anti-Christian. Taking away the God-given rights of others, like the right to defend ones self as protected under the 2A, is anti freedom and anti Christian and only leads to further problems down the line.

For anyone who is interested, the so-called ability to tell good from evil is the result of Adam eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden. That act is what Christians believe resulted in the fall of man and the need for a Saviour.


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## pawpaw (Dec 21, 2011)

"The VAST majority of people who commit murders in this country are Christians and believe in God..."
I submit to you that the VAST majority of people who commit murders in this country are in the middle of committing other crimes, i.e.; robbery, gang warfare, and drug dealing. More unborn children are murdered in this country a thousand fold than are ever killed by Christians. Game over.


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## valannb22 (Jan 6, 2012)

pawpaw said:


> "The VAST majority of people who commit murders in this country are Christians and believe in God..."
> I submit to you that the VAST majority of people who commit murders in this country are in the middle of committing other crimes, i.e.; robbery, gang warfare, and drug dealing. More unborn children are murdered in this country a thousand fold than are ever killed by Christians. Game over.


Are you saying that murders committed during gang wars, robbery, etc can't be committed by Christians? And please look up the statistics on abortion, around 70% of women who get abortions are Christian/Catholic. Within that about 42% are protestant.

It really all comes down to personal choice. Even people with faith in the Christian God or the god/gods of other religions have the free will to follow those teachings or not. Having faith does not automatically exempt you from doing bad things just like not having faith doesn't automatically make you do bad things. I think the WHY doesn't matter so much as the actual doing. We should all be doing less finger pointing and blaming and try to be good to each other. This is getting off topic, so I would be more than happy to continue discussion in a new thread or via pm if anyone wants to.


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## RogueWarrior (Nov 12, 2012)

valannb22 said:


> Evolution doesn't make kids go on shooting sprees. The VAST majority of people that commit murder in this country are Christians and believe in God. Stop trying to blame science for the actions of a few mentally ill people. Nobody has ever gone to science class, heard the theory of evolution, and then randomly decided that they came from a germ and started shooting people.


Wow! That's the biggest bunch of crap I've heard from anyone on here, in a long time...
Those "mentally ill people" (going on killing sprees) are pure evil...and nobody who is a true believer in Christ is going to go around murdering people. A person can label themselves whatever they want, but it doesn't make it so. Science is not to blame...it's a lack of a freaking conscious. People raise their kids to do whatever feels right to them...not live by the standards of God. This hardly was worth my time, but I couldn't resist.


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## valannb22 (Jan 6, 2012)

So now you get to decide who is a TRUE Christian and who isn't? By your logic, no Christian should ever commit any sin. Are you saying that you don't commit sin? I don't think that's what the bible says


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## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

The problem people have with your post Valanb is your blanket statements. Most murders are committed by Christians? Got evidence to back that up? If so please share but for people here involved in LE and courts I feel that is not nearly the case. Post crooks don't find Jesus till they get to the joint and the only people who visit are from churches. As to the original post, I bought my first gun, a POS jennings, because it held 7 rounds. Now I buy much nicer and higher cap pistols.


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

TO GET BACK ON TOPIC BEFORE THIS GETS CLOSED: 

All bans an laws like this do is make the anti's feel better an the polstiches look like they did sumtin.

It also makes some folks a fair amount a money cause they sell (sold) stuff folks wanted fer lots more then it wen't fer before stupidity.

The Bone head bill was corrected when a few smarter people saw it didn't work. The new one we may not be so lucky with cause I don't thin there be enough smart people comin down the pike ta fix it.

Mags, clips an certain goodies would be best bought now. I ain't got the funds (knor do I really "need" the currently bad guns so I ain't buyin one. Don't mean I'm not buyin stuff, just means I ain't got the cash ta drop on one at this time. Other stuff has priority unfortunatley.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

OldCootHillbilly said:


> TO GET BACK ON TOPIC BEFORE THIS GETS CLOSED:
> 
> All bans an laws like this do is make the anti's feel better an the polstiches look like they did sumtin.
> 
> ...


I have to agree with everything you posted as usual. I wonder if the reason smart people are in such short supply is because there was some problem with their wiring? I 'spect not -- that be a buncha heffer dust if you ask me!


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

valannb22 said:


> You are making the assumption that not believing in a higher power means that we have no morals or sense of right and wrong. You don't need God to be a good person. I live that every single day and see it among those like me. As a law enforcement officer, how many violent crimes have you had to investigate that were committed by Christians and those that grew up in Christian households? How does that number compare with those committed by outright atheists, and not just people who aren't regular church goers but still believe in a God or gods?


You can do the right thing for the wrong reasons and so the fact that you do the objectively right thing does not make you "moral" (and the fact that you do not does not necessarily make you immoral, I would argue). The word MORAL does not have anything to do with what you actually do, but WHY you do these things, namely because they are in accord with the natural law. Its a long standing principle of morality that if you do something that you thought was evil, even if it is actually good, then it is an immoral act, so e.g. to say something you think is false, when in reality it is true, is still to lie.

Morality is a code of conduct that would be put forward by all rational persons, because it is manifest in nature. However, there is a presumption made here, that nature is reasonable (and knowable), that natures law is good (and that the human mind has the ability to know), but that presumption is only valid if you posit a principle of order in creation, and creation presumes a creator. If the world is not creation but accident, then why would one presume order be found in an accident?

Anyway, I would love to continue this line of discussion in the Religion forum, but this thread is about the bad old days of the Assault Weapons Ban. 
[I forgot my point: which starts here:]

I thought this distinction was important though because of its relationship to the AWB, gun banners see a physical evil (the death of children), one should note that they can't even ideologically conceive of it as a real moral evil, and want to DO the "right thing". This however is not MORAL, because their desire to do the right thing has no foundation in the idea that their IS A RIGHT THING to do, in nature. Rather what they mean by the "right thing" is some thing, any thing, to make them FEEL better, to make them FEEL like they are doing something. Thus their desire to do the right thing, is basically license to do anything. Its naive to believe that Hitler didn't desire to do the right thing, he just identified the right thing with whatever he wanted to do, with his WHIM, and in the absence of a natural order and natural ordered, i.e. God, that is not illogical or irrational, you can't say its BAD.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

With the proliferation of hi-caps since the sun-setting of the AWB I think anything short of confiscation would have no short term effect on most of us, except making our Prepps LUCRATIVE investments, and not just smart insurance.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

valannb22 said:


> The VAST majority of people that commit murder in this country are Christians and believe in God. ...


I'll call BS on this one unless you can prove it. In your "proof" make sure you post how it was determined a person was a "Christian." Also, you have two categories here: "Christians" and those who "believe in God." A lot of people who believe in God do not call themselves Christians. Please post the distinctions between the two as well.

Thanks.


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

One of the other effects of a ban, as it was done in CA, is gun registration which to me and many others is just as unforgivable and unallowable as a ban. When the CA ban on assault weapons was passed, everyone who had pre-existing guns had to go register them and must produce that paperwork on demand. That is not what it means to be living in a free society, and it's something we need to take very seriously with any potential legislation coming up.

BAN habitual criminals from being released back into society.
BAN felons from voting for reduced rights of the law abiding citizenry to defend themselves from said felons.
BAN congress from passing any legislation which does not cite it's constitutional authority to do so.
BAN liberals from creating a police state out of our country so that they can feel better.

I remember growing up in Phoenix and people would move there from other states, and they'd tell me "OH MY GOD!!! I saw a guy in the circle K with a GUN!!!!" and I'd ask them "was he robbing the place?" and the answer was always some variation of "No, he was buying a slurpee"

For some of them you could really see the brain cells light up. Gun != bad... and all of a sudden their little liberal worldview got turned upside down and they had to start considering foreign points of view. For others it was just something they hoped would be... banned. :brickwall::gaah:


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

yeah if they actually get a new ban and make it retro active and go to collect guns the people withguns in Kalifornia are really really gonna hate that whole registration thing. And any other venue that does it. We will likely also regrett the NICS as I don't care haw many times they deny it I will not beleive they are not using it as a registry tool. Even if it isn't they can and will go to gun shops and demand they releinquish the forms to them. Then once they have them they can say OK people get em turned in we know who you are and where you are don't make us come and get em.


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

jsriley5 said:


> yeah if they actually get a new ban and make it retro active and go to collect guns the people withguns in Kalifornia are really really gonna hate that whole registration thing. And any other venue that does it. We will likely also regrett the NICS as I don't care haw many times they deny it I will not beleive they are not using it as a registry tool. Even if it isn't they can and will go to gun shops and demand they releinquish the forms to them. Then once they have them they can say OK people get em turned in we know who you are and where you are don't make us come and get em.


I don't think we're quite near there yet, especially given that Obama was gun salesman of the year in 2008/9 and will be again now.

But every little inch they gain is another mile we have to go to get it BACK!!! and that is the problem.

There was another thread that was discussing the number of police/military/govt employees overall and what it would take to try to disarm America. Going nuclear like that seems unlikely to me, it's too early in the game for them to try something that radical, it could turn around and bite them a lot harder than they are ready for. (then again I thought Obama was going to lose, so what do I know) 

Personally I think they'll try to make it a lot more expensive and aggravating for law abiding citizens to practice their rights. I see taxes, and lots of continual small steps legally and huge nasty draconian pieces of legislature that are "compromised" on to get only a little reduction in our rights and freedom.

Gun crimes could even be put up for zero tolerance mandatory sentencing in court... and the zealousness of prosecutors will not be easily swayed by John Q. Citizen... after all, how many mid level drug suppliers, rapists, other criminals does he know to throw under the bus in order to prevent him from being charged with the serious crimes? Only a guess... but I'm going to say the average guy doesn't know anyone that he can bargain like that with to save his own skin, so that means the good guys get another disadvantage... and then you have to pray that you get a good jury

Speaking of which... I highly encourage EVERYONE who is pro 2A to stop trying to get out of jury duty. Yeah it's a PITA, yeah, you dont want to be there. But what if *YOU* were in the defendants seat? who do you want in the box? 12 people like us, or 12 people like them?


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

Dakine said:


> One of the other effects of a ban, as it was done in CA, is gun registration which to me and many others is just as unforgivable and unallowable as a ban. When the CA ban on assault weapons was passed, everyone who had pre-existing guns had to go register them and must produce that paperwork on demand. That is not what it means to be living in a free society, and it's something we need to take very seriously with any potential legislation coming up.
> 
> *BAN habitual criminals from being released back into society.
> BAN felons from voting for reduced rights of the law abiding citizenry to defend themselves from said felons.
> ...


 they should put a ban on people who want to put a ban on everything... Bans are what creates a Police state.

Maybe people should just leave other people alone, you want everything banned that you don't like, others have the same rights as you do, maybe they don't want what you don't like banned.

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the catholics,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a catholic.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

Dakine said:


> Speaking of which... I highly encourage EVERYONE who is pro 2A to stop trying to get out of jury duty. Yeah it's a PITA, yeah, you dont want to be there. But what if *YOU* were in the defendants seat? *who do you want in the box? 12 people like us, or 12 people like them?*


 I would want someone on my jury who dosen't have their mind made up before the court date.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

lotsoflead said:


> I would want someone on my jury who dosen't have their mind made up before the court date.


I would want someone who had their mind made up before the court date that freedom is first and the jurys role is to make sure that NOBODYS freedoms are/were stepped on. Not someone whos mind is already made up that use of a gun is evil.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

lotsoflead said:


> I would want someone on my jury who dosen't have their mind made up before the court date.


Jury nullification?


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## recon-1 (Nov 10, 2011)

Personally I don't think there will be a ban. But I did go thru thru brady era and it sucked! Just hope all people concerned use common sense than the knee jerk reaction we are seeing!


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## stayingthegame (Mar 22, 2011)

lotsoflead said:


> they should put a ban on people who want to put a ban on everything... Bans are what creates a Police state.
> 
> Maybe people should just leave other people alone, you want everything banned that you don't like, others have the same rights as you do, maybe they don't want what you don't like banned.
> 
> ...


and because they took my guns,
I spent the rest of my life as slave of the State.


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## stayingthegame (Mar 22, 2011)

this is not a religious thread. the man asked about a point in history when we lost some rights. look back at the time Kennedy was shot, laws were changed then. rights were lost because of fear. how many guns are there in this nation? how many are used in crime? those will not be turned in. how many were used to kill some one? those will be lost to the courts. how many belong to law abiding people who will never use them except to hunt or target practice? how many will really be use to protect the person who owns them or their family? my mother feared guns because of a stupid accident that happened. she never wanted guns in her house. why her fear, fear of what might happen. we have had guns in this house for over 50 years and never had a problem. we taught hunter ed for many years and had the local paper write about us. my dd could shoot a 20 ga shotgun at five years old and knew how to take it down clean and put it back together. we keep our guns safe and we can hit what we aim at. why.... because we are not afraid of a tool. I am only afraid of the other mental fool thats comes at me.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

I was an FFL dealer during the Brady Bill.

There was a five day waiting period but if you didn't hear back from the ATF in five days, you were OK to proceed with the sale.

I do not recall ever hearing back from the ATF not to proceed with a sale.

You could not purchase ammo that was calibered for a handgun without filling out a record of purchase. That included .22's


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## the7wolf (Dec 4, 2012)

lotsoflead said:


> it's a shame that most people today will never see the free America that I grew up in, I could get on the school bus with my 22 or shot gun, keep it in the coat rm til after school and get off the bus with a friend anywhere on the route and go hunting. most boys carried a jack knife or hunting knife on their belt to school.
> 
> we have the most laws, the most cops and judges, the most prisons than anyplace in the world and we have the most problems.. Anyone care to guess what our problem might be?


I think we all know what the problem might be and why it's getting worse but let's not go there, our free speech isn't protected THAT much.


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