# Long term food storage off grid in a hot area.



## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

I'm curious how others deal with long term food storage in a hot area off grid.
If you have a couple years of food stored up and live off grid it should be kept cool to make it last longer. How is this done in an area like the Southern U.S. where temps get over 100 degrees F. in the summer?


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

A basement, storm cellar, root cellar, or other below ground storage would help moderate temperatures. If you added a layer of closed cell foam to the roof of your cellar that would help even further.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Root cellars stay cooler than a garage or house.

The basement in the cabin we use to live in stayed about 30 degrees cooler than the rest of the cabin. Except in winter where it was warmer than the rest of the cabin.


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

30 degrees cooler than 110 is still 80 degrees. Still too hot. Also, I'm thinking we would have to get considerably deeper than a basement to stay even 30 degrees cooler. It is looking like we may have to dig in deep then add an ac unit on it's own dedicated solar system with battery bank...uggggh.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

I would put at least three feet of dirt over the roof of the cellar and if you can go deeper then so much the better. A layer of foam will stop much of the heat from radiating down. If you are deep enough you will establish an area that is consistently at the ground temperature at that depth. Some grass on top will help reduce the absorption of heat. If you built a deck or a shed above that area that would also prevent the direct sun warming the area.

If you have a hillside you might also tunnel in. 

While I don't have a lot of experience in hot areas I do have a bit of knowledge about cold areas. My home is built above permafrost. When they fill in a lot they first put in a layer of closed cell foam to block the heat of the home from radiating into the permafrost and melting it. If you don't do this your home will slowly sink. The different end of the same problem.


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## camo2460 (Feb 10, 2013)

If you have a natural spring on your property, you might look into building a spring house.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

LastOutlaw said:


> 30 degrees cooler than 110 is still 80 degrees. Still too hot. Also, I'm thinking we would have to get considerably deeper than a basement to stay even 30 degrees cooler. It is looking like we may have to dig in deep then add an ac unit on it's own dedicated solar system with battery bank...uggggh.


True but the cabin was on the north side of the valley and the hottest it got on the mountain in the summer was 90 degrees.

Plus it was a basement and not a root cellar. It had cinder block walls and a cement floor. It also sat right under the cabin with one full side and half the other 2 exposed as it was built into the side of the mountain. The exposed wall also had a full length window.


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## Starcreek (Feb 4, 2015)

LastOutlaw said:


> I'm curious how others deal with long term food storage in a hot area off grid.
> If you have a couple years of food stored up and live off grid it should be kept cool to make it last longer. How is this done in an area like the Southern U.S. where temps get over 100 degrees F. in the summer?


Maybe you're looking at it wrong. Our family of 6 + 1 friend lived off the grid for 3 years in Tennessee. We had dairy goats and made goat cheese, we had chickens and pigs. We ate a lot of canned foods and grew vegetables in the garden. If we got something perishable (ice cream is what we all remember!), we ate it right away.

I would prefer to be able to grow/raise my own food than to have a year or two of food put up that I have to try and keep cool. Short-term, you can keep eggs, milk, peanut butter, cheese, etc., with little or no refrigeration. Of course, the hotter it gets the shorter the shelf life.


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## BF1911 (Feb 9, 2015)

LastOutlaw said:


> I'm curious how others deal with long term food storage in a hot area off grid.
> If you have a couple years of food stored up and live off grid it should be kept cool to make it last longer. How is this done in an area like the Southern U.S. where temps get over 100 degrees F. in the summer?


We had a pow wow Sunday discussing this very thing. We're looking at building some small caches about 8 feet deep and lining them with concrete culverts from the '50s. We'd have to stack canned goods on top of each other. Leave a 'lip' of the culvert sticking up about 10" and build a cover, then add soil. It's still up in the air for us. I'm interested in seeing the suggestions.


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

OK, I went researching this topic and here is what I found:
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Cooling/EarthTemperatures.htm

According to the info the temp does not get constant until you are 30 feet underground. ( that is a long way down)
However in my area once you are down that deep it stays around 60 to 65 degrees F.
That is very doable and would work to keep food pretty well.

I agree with you Starcreek about becoming self sufficient on our property as homesteaders and that is our plan. However as survivalists/preppers we also want to stay prepared for numerous scenarios. One of which is a loss of being able to produce our own food for any reason. We already have long term storage food and would not dump it. Also I could see a use to keep veggies cool to make them last longer as well as smoked meat. Not to mention an underground safe room if needed.
Looks like I have some digging in my future.

:kiss: Grandbaby asked me to put this here.


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

OK, I went researching this topic and here is what I found:
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Cooling/EarthTemperatures.htm

According to the info the temp does not get constant until you are 30 feet underground. ( that is a long way down)
However in my area once you are down that deep it stays around 60 to 65 degrees F.
That is very doable and would work to keep food pretty well.

I agree with you Starcreek about becoming self sufficient on our property as homesteaders and that is our plan. However as survivalists/preppers we also want to stay prepared for numerous scenarios. One of which is a loss of being able to produce our own food for any reason. We already have long term storage food and would not dump it. Also I could see a use to keep veggies cool to make them last longer as well as smoked meat. Not to mention an underground safe room if needed.
Looks like I have some digging in my future.

:kiss: Grandbaby asked me to put this here.


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## Balls004 (Feb 28, 2015)

Anything you can do to reduce the storage temperature is going to help increase the lifespan of your stored food. Even if it isn't the greatest condition, something is better than doing nothing. Emergency Essentials has a table on MRE's storage life vs. temperature that probably equates to other foods somehow.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Many foods can be stored a long time even with high temps. Just remember to rotate your stock and I would not worry about it too much. I don't worry and it gets fairly warm here


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

camo2460 said:


> If you have a natural spring on your property, you might look into building a spring house.


Oh how I wish!


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Y'all just need to build one of these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icyball

The "hot" end can be supplied with a Parabolic solar cooker! (carefull, that's a lot of heat)

I'll bet this concept can be used... now, just got to go build one:


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

hiwall said:


> Many foods can be stored a long time even with high temps. Just remember to rotate your stock and I would not worry about it too much. I don't worry and it gets fairly warm here


I have a lot of money tied up in long term storage food in numerous types. Of course I'm going to be concerned and try to make it last.
We do rotate our canned goods but also have a lot of other types including freeze dried, canned, dehydrated, mylar packed and MREs

I do know there are 3 enemies of food.
heat, oxygen and light.
Eliminate all 3 and you have a winning combination.

Have you ever seen the red sticker on a case of MREs? If the center is red you are good. If the center is black your cases have gotten too hot and are worthless. Keep a case in the trunk of your car in the summer in Texas and see how long until the center turns black.
It won't make it through the summer.


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

LincTex said:


> Y'all just need to build one of these:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icyball
> 
> ...


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

LastOutlaw said:


> I have a lot of money tied up in long term storage food in numerous types. Of course I'm going to be concerned and try to make it last.
> We do rotate our canned goods but also have a lot of other types including freeze dried, canned, dehydrated, mylar packed and MREs


Remember though, food being stored at an improper temperature may decrease the nutritional value somewhat or change the texture or color, but it's not likely going to cause it to become harmful if eaten & you'll still get the calories.

I'd be very careful about storing canned goods long term in an area without climate control. The humidity down here will rust the cans in less than 2 years. Ask me how I know  that includes not only your store bought stuff but also your freeze dried & anything else in a metal can. I'd be concerned about the same thing happening in a basement without climate control.

The simplest thing to do would be to convert to a true "store what you eat, eat what you store" system & then you don't have to worry about it. It may take some money buying all the canning jars & other items necessary, but it would be the simplest thing to do.


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

tsrwivey said:


> Remember though, food being stored at an improper temperature may decrease the nutritional value somewhat or change the texture or color, but it's not likely going to cause it to become harmful if eaten & you'll still get the calories.
> 
> I'd be very careful about storing canned goods long term in an area without climate control. The humidity down here will rust the cans in less than 2 years. Ask me how I know  that includes not only your store bought stuff but also your freeze dried & anything else in a metal can. I'd be concerned about the same thing happening in a basement without climate control.
> 
> The simplest thing to do would be to convert to a true "store what you eat, eat what you store" system & then you don't have to worry about it. It may take some money buying all the canning jars & other items necessary, but it would be the simplest thing to do.


Canned goods are all in our pantry and rotated in use.


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

My initial thoughts were much the same as Caribou wrote. I had always heard 3' was good enough. I decided to research it a bit further though.

My Google search turned up the same link, LastOutlaw.
While it is informative, the data set is from Virginia. But it does show only a 10 degree seasonal variation at a depth of 6'.
Another link I found very informative was this one: http://www.homeintheearth.com/tech_.../soil-properties/soil-temperature-experiment/
While the location of the experiment was not given, the ambient air temperature data strongly suggests either a southern or semi-desert at altitude location.
The important takeaway from the data and charts is that a depth between 5' and 7.5' should be sufficient to keep the temperature below 72 degrees (22 degrees C.) A 10' depth would give a safe margin of error.
The composition of your soil will affect the results.


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## readytogo (Apr 6, 2013)

*Our root cellar....*

As a child I remember what could be called a root cellar, it was a shed cover with dirt and grass and a very thick wooden door under very heavy shade, all our tubers and vegetables along with crates or barrels of salted meats and fish where store there, it gets hot in Cuba, we had no refrigeration up in those hills, no electricity but I do remember the constant rotation of the food store there.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

*Some work, or some energy*

I have a friend who built a house with a large walk in pantry. The pantry, along with many closets and cabinets are all along the north end of the house. Pretty much, the north end of the house is where his storage is, and when they are closed up, it creates a cooler zone in his house.

In addition to this pantry being on the north end of his house, he built an opening for an air conditioner. It is the only space in his house that is air conditioned. His house is built in a southwest style so that when the sun is higher in the summer, it doesn't shine in his southern windows, but it does in the winter when it is lower. He has a swamp cooler which keeps his home very comfortable.

I wonder if there are any storage units in your area that are air conditioned? It might be a good option, but not ideal.

You say you are in the southwest, but did not give the exact area, understandably. In some parts of the southwest, digging into the soil is almost impossible due to clay soil called caliche or hardpan. It can be done, but it takes efforts and tactics. There are almost no basements in Tucson because of caliche, however there are swimming pools that are in ground. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliche

I know of one home in Tucson that has a partial basement. I believe it was a home owned by a retired man who worked for days and days, and days. One of the things that helps the process is to soak the ground well, let it set and then dig.

I don't know if you will be up against caliche, but if you are, you might be at it for a while.


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

weedygarden said:


> You say you are in the southwest, but did not give the exact area, understandably. In some parts of the southwest, digging into the soil is almost impossible due to clay soil called caliche or hardpan. It can be done, but it takes efforts and tactics. There are almost no basements in Tucson because of caliche, however there are swimming pools that are in ground. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliche


From his earlier comments, he is in Texas. And yes, we have caliche here too. It is very hard to dig into without the use of powered equipment.

We also have Blackland which very hard to dig out since it tends to clump. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_blackland_prairies

Sandy loams are much easier to work since the density of the soil is much lower than either caliche or blackland.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

We live in the piney woods of east Texas. Currently we live in a house built in 1908, before electricity was available out here. We have 13ft ceilings, transom windows, 35+ regular windows & a dog trot (where front door & back door are connected by a 10ft wide hallway to promote airflow). When TSHTF & we no longer have electricity for an extended period, our plans are:
1- we have 600+ canning jars, 2 dehydrators, a decent supply of jars to store dehydrated foods in, plans to build a solar dehydrator & an endless supply of wood for canning, smoking, etc.
2- with all the heat comes two growing seasons & the ability to grow fruit & nut trees that can't tolerate the cold. With protection, you can grow many root vegetables & some other foods even in the winter.
3- we have a pool so we could put food in sealed buckets & use the temperature of the water to keep things cool.
4- we have a well with really cold water year round.
5- the craw space under the house on the north side is cool year round & is at least 3ft tall everywhere. The underpinning keeps out most critters.
6- we keep a lot of 5 gallon buckets with lids to give us storage options. 

We have a lot of food in cans, both store bought & #10 cans packaged for long term storage. We'd have to keep a really close eye on the conditions of those cans without air conditioning. Heat & humidity, abundant here in the south, are formidable foes to food in cans.


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## stayingthegame (Mar 22, 2011)

in parts of the south the water table is so high that even people are buried above ground. the joke is.... what is a basement called in the south? A swimming hole. where i live, digging six feet down, your starting to hit water. if is rains, it could flood the hole.


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

stayingthegame said:


> in parts of the south the water table is so high that even people are buried above ground. .... where i live, digging six feet down, your starting to hit water. if is rains, it could flood the hole.


And you've just answered the question of how to build a root cellar in a high water table area. *You build it above ground.* Then surround it with 6' of dirt on all sides and the top.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

Every time you raise the temperature by ten degrees you halve the shelf life of your food. The good news is that if you lower the temperature ten degrees you double the shelf life. So if it is 110 degrees outside and your storage area is 70 degrees then your stash will last sixteen times longer.

While it would be ideal to bring the storage temperature down to 50 or even 40 degrees your food will do quite well at 70 or even 80 degrees. 

With a swamp cooler and a white metal roof my cousin drops his house temperature 30 degrees or more below ambient. Not only does that help preserve his food but him as well.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

"I" think the point that was brought up earlier about asking the wrong question is best approach on the subject.

What you can do is to determine the foods that will store best in your location without climate control and concentrate your long term plans around those.

Example - grains and beans will fare fairly well without climate control, food items such as dehydrated potatoes and pasta will also well well. Foods such as canned(home or commercial) can be kept for periods of several years in a North Texas garage and those can be rotated through without loosing a lot of taste or nutrition.

It may work better for you if you rethink your strategy from "How to Store" to "What to Store" and work your long term plans around that.


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