# Need suggestions please



## prepmama (Mar 4, 2012)

How can I be prepared if a train derailed and spilled something dangerous? I have 4 railroad tracks less than 5 miles from my home, so I'd probably be in the evacuation zone if something happened. The trains have been running a lot more than usual, so I've never really thought about a train crash scenario till now.

We have emergency bags packed, but is there anything else I should do? Also I haven't mapped out possible escape routes yet...any tips would be appreciated. thanks


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

prepmama said:


> How can I be prepared if a train derailed and spilled something dangerous? I have 4 railroad tracks less than 5 miles from my home, so I'd probably be in the evacuation zone if something happened. The trains have been running a lot more than usual, so I've never really thought about a train crash scenario till now.
> 
> We have emergency bags packed, but is there anything else I should do? Also I haven't mapped out possible escape routes yet...any tips would be appreciated. thanks


a gas mask would be #1 on the list and a place in the basement to get a little protection from blasts if chemical tanks started blowing up before you got word of the wreck.


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## prepmama (Mar 4, 2012)

lotsoflead said:


> a gas mask would be #1 on the list and a place in the basement to get a little protection from blasts if chemical tanks started blowing up before you got word of the wreck.


Gosh I didn't even think about masks, thanks! But we don't have a basement or storm shelter


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

prepmama said:


> How can I be prepared if a train derailed and spilled something dangerous? I have 4 railroad tracks less than 5 miles from my home, so I'd probably be in the evacuation zone if something happened. The trains have been running a lot more than usual, so I've never really thought about a train crash scenario till now.
> 
> We have emergency bags packed, but is there anything else I should do? Also I haven't mapped out possible escape routes yet...any tips would be appreciated. thanks


I have the main lines of BNSF railroad within a mile of my house, I have also concidered this. I'm not near a town so if there was a spill I'm not sure how I would know. The only way I could be notified would be the sheriff going throught my area and using the PA to announce it. Thats not a good solution because all the houses here are on set back from the road more then 100 yards.

To be preppared, I would ask the authorities how they would inform you of a spill. Every dangerous chemical you could think of is carried by trains. As soon as you hear of a dangerous leak, leave the area and if you are down wind then go a few miles and then turn 90 degrees to the wind direction to get out of the gas cloud. DO NOT TAKE THIS LIGHTLY, leave the area!!

I spent 20 years on a volunteer fire department and we were trained for this stuff. In 20 years I remember a propane, and a ammonia spill. Both of these require SCUBA equipment. A gas mask won't cut it. We used our fire suits and then had to duct tape all sleeves and ankles and we still were getting chemical burns. When we went to the ammonia spill, the sheriff in all their wisdom told us to go down a road that was down wind of the spill, we drove for half-a-mile in the cloud. I was driving and when we hit the gas cloud, every gasp of air was burning our lungs and throats. I got that 30 ton truck up tp 70 going down a gravel road. If I had crashed the truck, we would have been dead.


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

If you have your BOB I wouldn't worry much ... Just be ready to go if the need comes about.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

Some questions first ... 

5 miles is a "long way" from the railway tracks, especially if the normal prevailing winds is blowing anything hazardous away from you. Do you know what the normal kind of loads are on the trains heading closest to you? Could they be grains or fertilizers? Could they be normally filled with fuels or industrial chemicals? Could they be hauling normal everyday products (TV's, lumber, vehicles)?

I used to work as a computer-tech for one of Canada's major railway companies, I worked in the yards primarily and in most cases certain tracks are designated for certain types of transport - especially in the praries. There are some tracks that have never seen anything more than grains and cattle being hauled. There are some tracks that have never seen anything but mining products (coal, metal-ore, etc) and some that will carry just about everything that can be carried by rail-road.

If you get a chance, spend some time sitting near the tracks and watch what is being carried on the tracks before you start making any serious plans about what to do in case of derailment.


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## DKRinAK (Nov 21, 2011)

*Well, as for when the railroad hits the fan...*

Get a scanner, give a listen
http://www.on-track-on-line.com/scanner-radio.shtml

http://www.trainweb.org/railnet/rr_radio/rr_radio.htm

http://www.raillinks.com/railfan/pages/Radio_Scanner_Frequencies/ THere are 97 channels used for rail comms. Here is the list.

Next time you hear a funny noise, give a listen....

Hope this helps/


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## ms_a2gwus (Feb 27, 2012)

Along with the masks, if the tracks are higher in elevation than your home, going in a basement or staying in a low-lying area might be dangerous if there are heavy, toxic, gaseous contaminants; they would seek to the lowest level. Personally, I would want to evac upwind from the event, uphill and with distance. 

If I were in your shoes, I would check with the local fire dept. to see if they have handouts, brochures, or household emergency plans for just such an event in your area or where to get that kind of info. Then check the routes of escape, both vehicle and pedestrian means as it's always best to have a back-up plan if roads are blocked or bottlenecked or nearby property has impassable fences that could trap you and yours. When you make your preplanning, be sure to have a spot picked out where all your family members can go to as a meet-up point and let others, outside your household, know of that reconnect point (your workplace supervisor, your church pastor or minister, extended family member that you have close contact to, etc.) so somebody will be able to check if everyone has reached your safety destination. Using Google Earth for an aerial view of your neighborhood might be useful, too.


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## prepmama (Mar 4, 2012)

NaeKid said:


> Some questions first ...
> 
> 5 miles is a "long way" from the railway tracks, especially if the normal prevailing winds is blowing anything hazardous away from you. Do you know what the normal kind of loads are on the trains heading closest to you? Could they be grains or fertilizers? Could they be normally filled with fuels or industrial chemicals? Could they be hauling normal everyday products (TV's, lumber, vehicles)?
> 
> ...


I'm kind of surrounded by them. 2 to my east are about 5 miles away, one to the west 3 miles, one is half a mile north. The closest one does mainly haul coal I believe. On the other tracks I've seen box cars and cylinders and auto haulers.


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## prepmama (Mar 4, 2012)

Tweto said:


> I have the main lines of BNSF railroad within a mile of my house, I have also concidered this. I'm not near a town so if there was a spill I'm not sure how I would know. The only way I could be notified would be the sheriff going throught my area and using the PA to announce it. Thats not a good solution because all the houses here are on set back from the road more then 100 yards.
> 
> To be preppared, I would ask the authorities how they would inform you of a spill. Every dangerous chemical you could think of is carried by trains. As soon as you hear of a dangerous leak, leave the area and if you are down wind then go a few miles and then turn 90 degrees to the wind direction to get out of the gas cloud. DO NOT TAKE THIS LIGHTLY, leave the area!!
> 
> I spent 20 years on a volunteer fire department and we were trained for this stuff. In 20 years I remember a propane, and a ammonia spill. Both of these require SCUBA equipment. A gas mask won't cut it. We used our fire suits and then had to duct tape all sleeves and ankles and we still were getting chemical burns. When we went to the ammonia spill, the sheriff in all their wisdom told us to go down a road that was down wind of the spill, we drove for half-a-mile in the cloud. I was driving and when we hit the gas cloud, every gasp of air was burning our lungs and throats. I got that 30 ton truck up tp 70 going down a gravel road. If I had crashed the truck, we would have been dead.


Good information! Thank you. And an ammonia spill didn't sound very scary until reading your post. But if I ever have to evacuate, this will all be embedded in my mind. Thanks


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## prepmama (Mar 4, 2012)

DKRinAK said:


> Get a scanner, give a listen
> http://www.on-track-on-line.com/scanner-radio.shtml
> 
> http://www.trainweb.org/railnet/rr_radio/rr_radio.htm
> ...


This is great! Thank you!


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## prepmama (Mar 4, 2012)

ms_a2gwus said:


> Along with the masks, if the tracks are higher in elevation than your home, going in a basement or staying in a low-lying area might be dangerous if there are heavy, toxic, gaseous contaminants; they would seek to the lowest level. Personally, I would want to evac upwind from the event, uphill and with distance.
> 
> If I were in your shoes, I would check with the local fire dept. to see if they have handouts, brochures, or household emergency plans for just such an event in your area or where to get that kind of info. Then check the routes of escape, both vehicle and pedestrian means as it's always best to have a back-up plan if roads are blocked or bottlenecked or nearby property has impassable fences that could trap you and yours. When you make your preplanning, be sure to have a spot picked out where all your family members can go to as a meet-up point and let others, outside your household, know of that reconnect point (your workplace supervisor, your church pastor or minister, extended family member that you have close contact to, etc.) so somebody will be able to check if everyone has reached your safety destination. Using Google Earth for an aerial view of your neighborhood might be useful, too.


Very good ideas. I'll definitely check with the fire department, thanks!


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## CulexPipiens (Nov 17, 2010)

I'll do you one better. We have a rail line literally bordering our back yard... I can throw a rock from my deck and hit the train. The line by us does haul a lot of innocent stuff (coal, wood, etc.) but a bunch of tank cars too. Watch as they go by and you'll see some labeled as to the contents as they are dedicated to carrying that substance. However all have a placard with a number on them. That number relates to the substance within. You can download the lengthy guide to these substances at http://phmsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/PHMSA/DownloadableFiles/Files/erg2008_eng.pdf

If something happens right by our place, we're dead. If it happens down the line a ways then the advice to move 90 degrees to the wind (and do so as quick as you can) is about the best that can be offered.

Not to freak you out, but this could be our back yard... 



 however the fire in that video is manageable... what about when it explodes instead of burns?


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

This is an interesting thread. I really don't think about the fact that we have a rail less than 100 yards away. Being as we live in an area that is mainly a timber and lumber producing area the rail line hauls mostly plywood, finished lumber and logs, things generally aren't all that dangerous. But occasionally there are more dangerous things such as ammonium nitrate, alcohol and propane on those rails. I've seen the spills of ammonium nitrate and it's not a problem since it's not saturated with diesel, if anything it's just an overload of fertilizer on the environment. Alcohol and propane in the the amount of over one thousand gallons is an other issue that I probably need to be prepared for.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

A strange thought just came to mind. An old childhood prayer which goes along with the fact that the train just about always comes through at about 2:00 AM. So maybe there is more to the following prayer than meets the eye, "Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep, if I should die before I wake, I pray the Lord my sole to take. Amen".


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## fedorthedog (Apr 14, 2011)

Its not ammonia its anhydrous ammonia, its will take your lungs out quickly. It and chlorine are very common items in rail shipment. Both can be fatal is inhaled, based on the PPM and exposure time. Know the general wind direction where you live. If the wind is toward you move away from the threat. across not into. Gas masks cant hurt. Make sure that the filters are new and unopened prior to uses. Get chemical filters not tear gas/particle filters. Keep you skin covered. Hopefully you can drive out., Windows closed ac on recirculate or off, vents closed. 

I too am a Vol FF but learned the chemical stuff as a tech on my PD's lab response team.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

fedorthedog said:


> Its not ammonia its anhydrous ammonia, its will take your lungs out quickly. It and chlorine are very common items in rail shipment. Both can be fatal is inhaled, based on the PPM and exposure time.


I may have experience a chlorine situation years ago at a Seattle garbage transfer site when a plumber dumped some stuff that took peoples breath away, it was scary. When I asked the plumber what it was he replied in broken english that he didn't dump anything harmful. In those days there wasn't a lot of worry about environmental toxins. As for anhydrous ammonia back in the 1970's I worked for Square D Electrical Company both in Seattle and then in Denver. The Seattle plant had an Ozalide (not sure of the spelling) copy machine for blue prints and it ran off of anhydrous ammonia and during processing it would condense into liquid ammonia and the machine would pump it into 5 gallon glass containers. Anyway one time someone left the pump off and it leaked all over the floor, they had to evacuate the building and call in the fire department and they brought fans and mopped up the ammonia wearing masks feed by compressed air bottles. There are a lot of things carried on rail lines that are highly toxic but most certainly anhydrous ammonia and chlorine are high on the list because when expelled they tend to stay low to the ground.


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## Diego2112 (Aug 18, 2010)

Never thought about the danger of the rails that run... oh, I'd say maybe 2 miles up the road? IF that far. And they carry it all. Chems, coal, wood, cars, food. Norfolk Southern lines, they are.

This gives me some serious food for thought.

The BRIGHT side is, I'm up hill of 'em. Downside is, I'm downwind of 'em, and my CURRENT Bugout plan is right in line with where the wind'd blow.

I may need to change that.


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## kappydell (Nov 27, 2011)

If you are worried about gasses, you should have masks, and a high location to to go to, since gasses tend to sink & pool in low lying areas. Try to map out areas that are a little higher and have good cross ventilation (windy) to travel thru so you can avoid those pooled areas. A good bug-out location would have ample shower facilities for de-contamination. Look at chemical warfare sites for info on handling toxic gases. Scary, yes, but there are a lot of chemicals transported all over the country, some in mixed lots, some very dangerous. You know those semis with those triangles with numbers on them? Hazardous materials. Hard to avoid some exposure so best to prep for it.


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## Diego2112 (Aug 18, 2010)

kappydell said:


> <SNIP>
> You know those semis with those triangles with numbers on them? Hazardous materials. Hard to avoid some exposure so best to prep for it.


Those little diamonds also have numbers on them. The higher the number, the more dangerous it is.

Avoid higher numbers.

Remember, knowledge is power, power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil!


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## RodUSMC (May 25, 2012)

kappydell said:


> If you are worried about gasses, you should have masks, and a high location to to go to, since gasses tend to sink & pool in low lying areas. Try to map out areas that are a little higher and have good cross ventilation (windy) to travel thru so you can avoid those pooled areas. A good bug-out location would have ample shower facilities for de-contamination. Look at chemical warfare sites for info on handling toxic gases. Scary, yes, but there are a lot of chemicals transported all over the country, some in mixed lots, some very dangerous. You know those semis with those triangles with numbers on them? Hazardous materials. Hard to avoid some exposure so best to prep for it.


All other threats aside, I Bought two new FM50's for this very reason (one for my wife and one for me) after reading about the train spill in 2005 in South Carolina that killed 8 people. The police initially advised everyone to stay indoors.


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## chris88idaho (Apr 30, 2012)

Consider rain suits, rubber boots, and duct tape. Do some dry runs stress suiting up quickly. Mask up first, suit up, then tape. Figure out prevailing winds and map out several evacuation routs in opposite direction. 

This prep will help in nuclear, biological, and chemical environment. I would keep you bug out vehicle with a minimum of half tank of gas. Might also want decontamination kit in your trunk. Bleach and scrub brushes. Pull into next safe town and hit the closest car wash and spray/ scrub each other off. Hmm, maybe keep a wad of quarters in your car too.

Remember masking/suiting up is only half the battle. You have to decom to get out of your suit. Canister filters are only good for max 24 hrs


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## chris88idaho (Apr 30, 2012)

Oh ya it is imperative you have the correct size mask and it seals. May have to shave facial hair. Otherwise you run the risk of doing the "kicking chicken" ie: you die


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## Zanazaz (Feb 14, 2012)

At last years National Night Out I was talking to members of the Fire Dept. ( yes I question them every chance I get... ), and one of them mentioned to me if the Federal government ships anything hazardous, they DO NOT have to mark what's inside the truck/tanker/railcar. I was kind of shocked, and they also mentioned how frustrating it is for them not to know what they might be facing. This was from a very reliable source, but I have yet to verify it. Anyone else hear anything like this???


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## MamaTo3 (May 25, 2012)

Zanazaz said:


> At last years National Night Out I was talking to members of the Fire Dept. ( yes I question them every chance I get... ), and one of them mentioned to me if the Federal government ships anything hazardous, they DO NOT have to mark what's inside the truck/tanker/railcar. I was kind of shocked, and they also mentioned how frustrating it is for them not to know what they might be facing. This was from a very reliable source, but I have yet to verify it. Anyone else hear anything like this???


I have heard this as well. Keep a small book in the car that shows what the signs mean. My step-father always did and I thought it was a smart thing to have on hand just incase something happens.

I also saw a show in the History Channel about semi trucks that says there are "Ghost Trucks" out there (mainly gvmt I think). The people driving the trucks don't know what's in them...along with the people at the computer (that monitors the truck's location). It said they do not even show up as being on the road. There is no way to know where these are and what is being transported in them...and in the event of a crash/spill that's scary! I'm sure there are trains like this as well.


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

here's some info in placard form:


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## echo1432 (May 16, 2012)

Only specific material isn't marked, usually stuff that falls under the Department of Energy


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

Most of the time, the "ghost trucks" are vehicles that are completely logo-free - nothing on the door, nothing painted on the box and normally fairly new looking that may look like they are being delivered to a new customer. You might notice an SUV with "blacked out" windows following or leading the truck - that is part of the security detail.

Sometimes the contents are very basic (computer equipment, communications equipment) and not something to worry about - other times they may carry something a little more dangerous.

Now, with that being said - some of the "ghost trucks" are nothing more than just a delivery of a truck-n-trailer from the dealer or manufacturer to the new owner and it is running empty. In those cases, you might notice that the truck is able to move easily through traffic due to no weight in the trailer and the driver (if you can see them) is fairly relaxed and enjoyin' life.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

NaeKid said:


> Most of the time, the "ghost trucks" are vehicles that are completely logo-free - nothing on the door, nothing painted on the box and normally fairly new looking that may look like they are being delivered to a new customer. You might notice an SUV with "blacked out" windows following or leading the truck - that is part of the security detail.
> 
> Sometimes the contents are very basic (computer equipment, communications equipment) and not something to worry about - other times they may carry something a little more dangerous.
> 
> Now, with that being said - some of the "ghost trucks" are nothing more than just a delivery of a truck-n-trailer from the dealer or manufacturer to the new owner and it is running empty. In those cases, you might notice that the truck is able to move easily through traffic due to no weight in the trailer and the driver (if you can see them) is fairly relaxed and enjoyin' life.


I have seen this about 2 years ago. A completely unmarked Tractor trailer with a suburban in front (about half a mile) and a surburban behind (about half a mile, both suburbans with 4 short hair military types.

I have several friends in the trucking industry, and they said that this is normal operating procedures for hauling military arms (missles, bombs, rifles, ammo, etc.). The drivers of the truck drive straight through without stopping and are not bound by Federal Motor Carrier regulations for maximum hours and weight requirements.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

There was a train derailment in Wisconsin which involved a fire and an emergency evacuation. You can read about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weyauwega,_Wisconsin_derailment

The Weyauwega derailment was a railroad accident that occurred in Weyauwega, Wisconsin, USA, in the early morning hours of March 4, 1996. The derailed train was carrying a large quantity of hazardous material, which immediately caught fire. The fire, which involved the train cars and an adjacent feed mill, burned for more than two weeks after the actual derailment, resulting in the emergency evacuation of 2,300 people for 16 days, including the entire city of Weyauwega, with about 1,700 evacuees.

Derailment and fire

At approximately 5:49 am, an 81-car Wisconsin Central train traveling from Stevens Point, Wisconsin, to Neenah, Wisconsin, approached the city of Weyauwega at 48.3 miles (77.7 km) per hour, traveling on a downward grade. The first 16 cars of the train passed a switch without incident, after which 37 cars behind them derailed at the location of the switch, at 5:49:32 AM. A subsequent NTSB investigation found the cause of the derailment to be a broken rail within the switch that was the result of an undetected bolt hole fracture.[1] The derailed cars included seven tank cars of liquefied petroleum gas (LPG), seven tank cars of propane and two tank cars of sodium hydroxide. The derailment ruptured three of the tank cars, spilling both LPG and propane, which immediately ignited. The conductor of the train cut the train after the first nine cars, and proceeded onward 1.5 miles (2.4 km). He informed local law enforcement of the hazardous material the train was carrying, and was instructed to tell the fire chief.

An overhead view of the derailment March 5, 1996
When the local fire crew arrived on the scene five minutes after the derailment, fireballs were exploding up to 300 feet (90 m) high that were visible for nearly 13 miles (21 km). Fire spread to a nearby feed mill and storage building that were both difficult to access by the fire crew because the derailed train was blocking the grade crossing. High tension power lines were also torn down by the derailment, which caused secondary electrical fires. In total, seven of the tank cars of LPG and propane leaked, and the two sodium hydroxide tank cars leaked their contents. Electricity and natural gas service to 25% of the city of Weyauwega was disrupted, and city water services had to be shut off because of a rupture in a water main.
Jim Baehnman, the assistant fire chief (the commanding Fire Chief, Gary Hecker, was on vacation the day of the accident) quickly determined that the accident was beyond the scope of Weyauwega's fire department. Fire crews from 10 surrounding departments were called in to help with the recovery. Between 10 minutes and one hour after the derailment, it became known that propane and LPG were involved in this derailment.
One hour after the derailment, Wisconsin Central Railroad informed responding firefighters that the tank cars could withstand approximately 90 minutes of fire. Additionally, the head end of the train was rolled back to the accident scene, and pulled away seven cars of the train that were not derailed. At this point, a decision was made by the fire chief to pull firefighters back from the derailment, because of the risk of a BLEVE (boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion). This evacuation of personnel was two blocks for one hour, then 1 mile (1.6 km), and finally 1.5 miles (2.4 km); the initial evacuation was completed so quickly that fire hoses in use were abandoned and froze where they lay.

Derailed cars in the western section of the accident site

Looking east at the site of the derailment from Mill St.
Baehnman also made the decision to evacuate the entire city of Weyauwega, a decision which displaced approximately 1,700 residents of the city, and 600 additional people in surrounding rural areas. The scope of the resulting fire and leaking of chemicals kept residents evacuated for just over two weeks, and many of the fires that erupted as a result of the derailment burned for most of the 18-day evacuation.
The weather may have helped ease the situation for firefighters; the ambient temperature at the time of the derailment was only 10 °F (−12 °C) and there was still snow on the ground. Both factors may have helped prevent a BLEVE explosion within the first hour of the disaster, while emergency personnel were still on site. Ultimately, one of the cars containing LPG was involved in a BLEVE, causing a large fireball several hours after the accident. On March 20, officials in charge of the evacuation and disaster recovery declared the town safe for residents to return.
[edit]Pets in the evacuation zone

Residents who were worried about pets that they left behind started re-entering the 1.5 miles (2.4 km) evacuation zone within two days of the derailment to rescue them. Just over half the population evacuated without their pets. The acting fire chief declared the situation too dangerous to the public and emergency personnel to mount a pet rescue. Fearing a worse disaster, his decision was overruled by the Governor's office; the Emergency Operations Center organized an official pet rescue to take place on March 8. The National Guard was activated to help with the recovery efforts. Using flak jackets and armored personnel carriers, they escorted pet owners to their residences to rescue their pets,[2] then stayed to help fire crews with the accident recovery.
[edit]Cause

Subsequent investigation and litigation established that the derailment was caused by an undetected, fractured heel block in a switch. The fracture then propagated through several bolt holes. A contributing factor was a lock bar that had been missing for approximately a year.[3]
[edit]Litigation and costs

Nine individuals who were affected by the evacuation filed a class action suit seeking punitive and treble damages against Wisconsin Central on March 26, 1996. By the end of the year, 13 additional families and two businesses joined the suit against the railroad, and another business filed a separate suit for damages in Waupaca County District Court.[4] Another company filed a separate suit in U.S. District Court for damages. Both of the separate suits were eventually dismissed. In 1998, the railroad estimated the costs from the derailment and class action suit to be valued at $28 million, of which Wisconsin Central had paid $27.2 million by the end of 1998.[5]
[edit]Track circuits

Track circuits can detect some but not all broken rails. Broken rails in switches may be in parallel paths, which cannot be detected. Breaks that are not clean breaks from top to bottom of the rail also cannot be detected. Wiring at the start and finish of track circuits are connected a short distance from the end of the rails, so that there is a blind spot within which broken rails are not detected.
[edit]


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## CulexPipiens (Nov 17, 2010)

Zanazaz said:


> At last years National Night Out I was talking to members of the Fire Dept. ( yes I question them every chance I get... ), and one of them mentioned to me if the Federal government ships anything hazardous, they DO NOT have to mark what's inside the truck/tanker/railcar. I was kind of shocked, and they also mentioned how frustrating it is for them not to know what they might be facing. This was from a very reliable source, but I have yet to verify it. Anyone else hear anything like this???


A bit dated but this might give you some more reading,..

http://www.state.nv.us/nucwaste/states/us.htm

"Highway and rail routes most likely to be used to transport high-level nuclear waste to Yucca Mountain, Nevada"


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