# SBR's and thier value in a bug out bag.



## Magus

By an SBR,I mean a title II weapon with a shoulder stock and a barrel shorter than 16".a Short Barreled Rifle.

I'm not going to go into the makes and models etc,I think that might be forbidden still yet since my last visit,rather I'll be going into the concept itself,that being of reduced weight and length while providing rifle-like power for defense or hunting.examples of the SBR are:

The Krinkov AK in 5.45 or 7,62.
The M-4 and it's 14" or 10" tube.
The ORIGINAL scout rifle as described by Jeff Cooper.
The ORIGINAL USAF survival rifles.
The Marlin "Trapper" with it's 13 inch tube.

You get the idea,notice I didn't mention pistol calibered Macho guns like Uzis and Mac 10s.they are pistol calibered and pretty useless as hunting weapons or defending against large and angry predators.

Here is a general concept of the weapon:
Capable of hunting AND defense.
RIFLE calibered.
Shorter than carbine length barrel.
Folding or collapsible stock.
Capable of using iron sights or scope.
Light weight but with manageable recoil.

now bear in mind,I would NEVER condone using one of these as a main survival weapon! :ignore:

The concept here is to save weight and room an a BOB so you can store more stuff you need like food,water,or med-kits while still having something to make a hungry bear or mutant-biker-zombies go elsewhere for dinner!

A SBR can be had by paying a 200$ transfer fee to the BATFE and registering the weapon with them,then having a competent gunsmith install a short barrel or cut yours down and re crowning it or purchasing one outright from a title II dealer.Krinkovs,Shorty AR uppers and short survival rifles are out there and legal to own with the right paperwork.once legally obtained,remember the KISS rule:
Keep It Simple Stupid.

Once you start adding scopes,tactical flash lights,extended flash hiders,extended magazines and all this other gun-shop commando crap,you have defeated the entire purpose of the SBR!you just added back all the weight you saved,probably made it longer too,so keep your magazines to 20 rounds and under[might have a 40 rounder in your hip pocket if things get nasty!]and keep the weapon SIMPLE!

In return you'll get a light weight,maneuverable,handy,powerful weapon with more firepower than a pistol and not much more weight.the only down side is accuracy,whatever the weapon's range was before,reel it back on average of 100-150 yards.

REMEMBER:
This is NOT a match weapon,nor is it strictly a hunting or fighting weapon,its a bit of everything.a jack of all trades,master of none.its entire concept is to get you back home or to your retreat alive so you can have access to your "specialty"weapons.


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## RONSERESURPLUS

*Sbr*

Hello all, RON L here

SBR (SHORT BARRELED RIFLE)

While, I do understad that the posted is trying to say ad get accross, I have to say can't really see a Need fr this? I see if you were to Push the Pics on a Normal M-4 Style AR rile it would only be a few inches longer than a SBR, a Lot less hassle to get, a Lot less $ and about the same use? Sorry, I just don't see it worth the federal hassles and additional cost for not a lot of retun in size and portability? Not tryng t be difficult or start any Flame war, I just don't agree?

RON


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## SurvivalNut

Coincidence. Next weekend I am picking up my PLR16 . It is a .223 pistol that takes AR mags. 18 inches long.

Kel Tec

Not to go overboard into gun stuff, but I agree this little item or one like it can fit into a book bag and is an easy BOB carry and it is street legal off the shelf. (not in CA)

Other brands are available, cost and positive reviews sold me on this one.

Legal is legal and no stamp or permit required is a plus.


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## RONSERESURPLUS

*I have to agree*

Survivalnut

RON L here

I have to agree, I see the kel Tec 16 series as well as maybe the Folding Pistol Carbines as a good alternative to a SBR, good po9ints and thanks for that input!

RON


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## oilcan

I surely do see a good use for the SBR concept you've drawn up. Just off the top of my head, dropping an AR barrel fom 16" to 11" or so gets you an extra 5" of clearance when maneuvering it around in close quarters. Believe me, that can make a huge difference! Then there's the portability/concealment factor. There's a lot to say for packing a "long" gun that no one knows you have.

On the other hand you can rig a plain ole' 16" CAR to take up even less room (lengthwise) by just pulling the takedown pins and storing the halves seperately in the bag. It'd take a bit longer to get into action, but think of the costly and invasive alternative.


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## Magus

Irony...I just found a Krinkov in 762X39 after I posted this,no stock so its a pistol.

Oh well,it was a concept I thought worth exploring.


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## RONSERESURPLUS

*Sorry Guys?*

Sorry Guys, i have carried and used the 14" and even 12" barreled AR's and I saw them as hardly any handier than a 16" and that was in CQB schools and the MP-5 was about the same,, we were as short, if ya needed shorter, swop to a handgun, I just don't see the Use of a SBR and all the hassle?

RON


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## Magus

Its all about power and maneuverability really..a pistol caliber can't do everything a rifle caliber can,IE stop a pissed off bear.


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## RONSERESURPLUS

*I see your point, BUT?*

Magnus

RON L here

I see your point, I like shorter and manuverable, but thier is no way I'd use a 223. 5.45X39 or even a 7.62X39 on a Wild Animal like a Bear? I see the above stated calibers as human use and I have taken deer with 7.62X39, but would be hesitant to use on a larger Black bear or a Grizzly or a Kodack? I'd be hard pressed to even want my M-1 Garand? I respect the point your trying to make, I just don't agree! That doesn't make me right and you wrong, it just means we disagee? I hope that works out for ya, but it's a SBR that I thought about for a while, but decided against it, after seeing the federal hassle and involvement? I can do a lot of the same thingw ith what I have, with many of them I bought off paper and no Record of Purchace! I don't buy al mine that way, but if I can, I do?

RON


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## Magus

Good thoughts.

Our local black bears seldom exceed 300 pounds,I kind of forgot the rest of N. Am.has bigger and meaner bruins,silly really since I'm from the Smokies,but still better than going up against one with a 9mm.

I buy mine any way I can when I do.LOL.


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## JeepHammer

Personally, I don't see the point in this thread.
The admins are going to remove it since it's firearms related as soon as they find it.

9" top end on an AR 'Pistol' I can switch to my carbine lower end if I need that anytime.
I don't foresee anything but it laying around here since a .223 pistol is useless...
Barrel is too short to do anything at all with other than waisting ammo.

I carry a 16" barrel with carbine stock in my Jeep,
Plenty short with the stock slid up all the way and the difference between 14" combat M-4 barrels and 16" civilian barrels is so small I don't see arguing about it.


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## Magus

Howdy Jeep.where have you been?


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## JeepHammer

On the Jeep forums, on the Solar Forums...
Started getting email from this site and found out I was 'Un-Banned' for some reason.

Started a solar energy/alternative energy business, and don't have nearly the time to fool around on the forums as I used to.
There's money to be made on this latest craze of Nutcases wanting 'Obama Proof' shelters,
And lets not forget the 2012 idiots with pockets full of cash!

I just gave into the stupidity and started taking money for what should be common sense advice...
Since so few people have 'Common Sense', it's a booming market for me!

Sure is dead around here!
A few guys arguing with everything posted is about all I see here...
Seen any good threads lately?


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## SurvivalNut

JeepHammer said:


> Sure is dead around here!
> A few guys arguing with everything posted is about all I see here...
> Seen any good threads lately?


Welcome back JeepHammer, but gosh dang, talkin' trash already?

I learn from the posts everyday. :dunno:


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## JeepHammer

SurvivalNut said:


> Welcome back JeepHammer, but gosh dang, talkin' trash already?
> 
> I learn from the posts everyday. :dunno:


No, been ripped on two or three threads already...

And generally, I don't talk 'Trash',
I'm fairly good at 'Tech', and I give footnotes/links to help explain what I'm saying, not just 'Opinion'.

Anyway, back to the grindstone, trying to design a 'Survival Room' for a guy up the road.

Made a killing on some kind of internet application but doesn't have the slightest idea what is 'Necessary' and what is 'Luxury'... Or just plain SILLY!

Someone talked this guy into building a 50,000 Sq.Ft. Metal/Metal building for his 'Survival Hide', sheet metal, no protection, Does have a movie theater!

I wonder how many videos/movies he'll be able to watch when there is no power...
No backup systems at all!
No water access, no power, no hidden/secure storage...

I'm helping him spend his money!


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## sailaway

Hotpoint makes a really nice SBR for a throw down, $180.00 used at the gun shows. 9mm and 45cal, black and camo colors. I saw a guy qualify with a 9mm one at Appleseed.


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## RONSERESURPLUS

*Perhaps it's me?*

Hello all, RON L her I know as the "FNG" here, I should probabaly keep my mouth shut, as I have not been here to know all that goes on here in this newsgroup? I saw the Post by Magnus and thought I'd comment! I have posted a few weapons and firearm's related posts hewre and they have not been deleted? I do see that when you come back on a newsgroup, after being "banned", comment on SBR and talk about how you would take a Pistol length barrel upper off your ar pistol and place it on a Rifle (A Violation of federal law, unless you have all the required paperwork), as a pretty good reason why you were banned in the first place? Laws about Class 3, SPR and others Fed offecnce are not to be taken lightly and the Fed is bad enough without giving them reason to throw a net on ya? thats just my opinion as ILLREPONSIBLE?

Magnus explaned what he was trying to do, the Idea has merit, but it also has it's pperils I poited out, at least he was the one that originated the post and didn't recomend breaking the law?

Just my opinion and as I said it might be out of line to bring it out in the open, but thats just what I think?

RON


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## JeepHammer

Wasn't selling it as a home game, just said it *CAN* be done.

My 'Pistol' is just that, a pistol.
I thought it was 'Cool' when I purchased it, but I grew tired of it's muzzle velocity and inaccuracy, and it's laid around here for years with no excercise at all.

Personally, I don't see why a carbine with 16" barrel,
Or a bull pup stock wouldn't fit the bill.
Mini-14 in a bullpup stock makes for a VERY compact package for instance.


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## Magus

I just gave my brother a Bushmaster bull-pup for his place,poor guy needed something light.

Need any help designing safe-rooms Jeep?I used to do crap like that.


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## JeepHammer

Magus said:


> I just gave my brother a Bushmaster bull-pup for his place,poor guy needed something light.
> 
> Need any help designing safe-rooms Jeep?I used to do crap like that.


Not really,
Basically a garage with concrete walls and 'California' windows way up high.

The usual stuff, flow through water storage so you don't have to check water quality all the time,
Sanitation is covered,
Dual Heating sources,
And some batteries and solar panels for back up power.
A couple of secure rooms...

I showed him pictures of my 'Well House/Power House',
(Yard barn around the well head contains batteries & Inverters)
And he FLIPPED for it,
Wants to build a MUCH larger scale version for himself,
So we are doing it in concrete, earth sheltered, earth roof, and secure doors.

For some reason his 'Survival' compound had sheet metal buildings,
Looked like the 'Waco' compound!
180 Acres all fenced off with a 12' chain link, I'd say 12' of chain link is a 'Rob Me' alert, but it's his money...

The guy purchased a Jeep off my buddy,
Then wanted it to 'Run' without batteries or gasoline.

Pretty tough!
Magneto for ignition isn't an issue, but no batteries make it darn near impossible to use propane since they have safety switches that are electrically operated.

Then how do you crank the engine over to get it running in the first place...

Talked him out of that silly way of thinking,
And moved him more towards 'Sustainability' rather than storage of stuff for the 'Apocalypse'...
He's CONVINCED that 2012 is going to be the big end to everything, and since he has a $400,000 budget for this project,
I'll help him along with his 'Distribution of wealth'...

I've already made as much this year as I did ALL of last year, and this is a 2 year project!

We're running around in golf carts that are solar charged,
He has two 4-wheelers that are battery powered now,
And he's drilling a well this week as we wait for some of the stainless pipes and tanks to come in.


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## SurvivalNut

JeepHammer said:


> For some reason his 'Survival' compound had sheet metal buildings,
> Looked like the 'Waco' compound!
> 180 Acres all fenced off with a 12' chain link, I'd say 12' of chain link is a 'Rob Me' alert, but it's his money...
> 
> Talked him out of that silly way of thinking,
> And moved him more towards 'Sustainability' rather than storage of stuff for the 'Apocalypse'...
> He's CONVINCED that 2012 is going to be the big end to everything, and since he has a $400,000 budget for this project,
> I'll help him along with his 'Distribution of wealth'...


I am glad you have the work, but if I had that kind of money to toss around, I would hope I purchased a little discretion from my contractors as well.

Don't let the internet kabosh your golden egg.

Hmmm..... reminds me of a JDY story........


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## Fn/Form

The SBRs are great if you're SWAT (room to room), want to run a suppressor full time indoors or in vehicles (length) or need the concealment size. Otherwise you lose velocity and gain an obnoxious loudness/pressure boom.

The AUG style weapons are being produced by more than one company now. Very compact with a full 16" barrel. No tax stamp hassle.


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## Magus

Godz,I felt stupid for shelling out 10K on Y2K supplies.hope the dumb idiot dosen't jump off a bridge when the only thing that happens is a few new age cults drink rat poison flavored kool aid.

Technically,a Jeep CAN be made to run without batteries or gas,but it has to be converted to rich methane and a generator put in place of the alternator,I forget the size,but it was a lot bigger than standard and you always have to park where you can "roll off".

It can be done,but you must wonder why........tell the dope to buy a windmill and hook up a Honda electric ATV up to it.


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## RONSERESURPLUS

*Magnus, oh, i don't know?*

Magnus

RON here, Oh I don't know man, I made a gr3eat amount of Preps for Y2K, and the gear and food and materials I got then serve me almost today! The food was a great thing, as I was laid off and we had Food, Electrical and all the preps we needed in case we got behind in our bills! The Powere here stinks and we lose it more than a few times a MONTH so the genny and all the $ we put into that was a paid off item, the food as well and the rest of the prep gear, much of it we still have and use, so I don't see why you thought it was awaste your end?

I see all facets of Prep important,m from defence weapons, to food and water, shelter, heat, light it all matters man, and I am not one of the run off to the hills and live in a Cave types? I could If I had to, but lived that life a while and didn't like it, LOL

I have a few area's we could escape to and live well for a while, but htose are places I have been working on near a decade now and would only got there if it became un-livable here? Just my opinion, but one formed over decades of prep and trial and error!

RON


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## JeepHammer

I don't recommend an SBR for anything much.
The best 'Handgun' you can have in a handgun fight is a Carbine,
And the best 'Battle Rifle' you can have in a rifle gunfight is an ACCURATE semi-auto out about 300 yards away or more!

I learned 'Weapons Systems' in the military.
If you are carrying a 'Browning High-Power',
Then carry a 9mm SMG or Carbine, so you don't have two different kinds of ammo to stock or carry around.

Personally,
The AR lowers that accept the Cobray top ends and magazines work great for me.
you could also get the Cobray tops in pistol and rifle barrel versions and be fine with a 'Weapons System' that not only allowed you a pistol, but a carbine that used the same ammo AND SAME MAGAZINES.

My Cobray tops have mag well adapters that allow me to use Cobray 9mm and .45 ACP mags, so I don't have to stock a bunch of different mags,
And they will feed/fire from Sten mags (with the proper mag well adapter), which are cheap and plentiful.

Not that I think a 9mm is suitable for anything but 'Room Clearing'...
And since I don't do much of that (I'm not a cop) I just have the junk laying around and don't use it for anything but trading material at gun shows...

I MUCH prefer my ARs with 16" barrels for things like 'Back Seat' rifles when I'm out on the farm or in the Jeep out on trails or whatever.
A LOT less hassles with a long barrel firearm when/if I get stopped than if I'm carrying a handgun or SBR.

I have a bunch of parts, add ons, and other crap,
But it's all been just that... Crap so far...
The most viscous thing I've had to shoot at so far was a ground hog trapped in the shed and wanted a piece of my ankles so far!
And that got dispatched with a .22 bolt rifle!

SBR has it's applications, but I don't have a use for one...
I'm mostly a long barrel person, 200 or 300 yards minimum now for coyotes when I stumble across them...
The occasional skunk or ground hog that sets up house keeping under my buildings, ect.

*IF*...
I were to need an SBR,
I'd go with a bull pup and full length barrel to avoid the $200 registration fee and lengthy paperwork...


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## JeepHammer

Magus said:


> Godz,I felt stupid for shelling out 10K on Y2K supplies.hope the dumb idiot dosen't jump off a bridge when the only thing that happens is a few new age cults drink rat poison flavored kool aid.
> 
> Technically,a Jeep CAN be made to run without batteries or gas,but it has to be converted to rich methane and a generator put in place of the alternator,I forget the size,but it was a lot bigger than standard and you always have to park where you can "roll off".
> 
> It can be done,but you must wonder why........tell the dope to buy a windmill and hook up a Honda electric ATV up to it.


Yup...
We grow a large garden, can/dry or otherwise preserve about everything in a 'Root Cellar',
Same way my grandparents taught us.
We usually have two years worth of food in the cellar at any given time,
And the house burning down effected NOTHING in the cellar...

MUCH BETTER THAN MREs!

The 'Field Expident' root cellar was easy, about $2,200 total.
Got an old shipping container, coated it with basement sealer and buried it in a hill side.
Some vents to evacuate the humidity, and it works GREAT!
Unless I was using old tires I couldn't have built one this large for that money, so it was a REAL DEAL for us.

The only extra cost was a regular door on it that would hold up to weather, and that came out of a house that was being torn down for the expanding coal mine locally.
VERY CHEAP...
Steps are nothing but rocks and a little cement I had left over when doing other things, and it works very well!
Even has a floor drain!

Our 'Storm Cellar/Root Cellar' doesn't have to be elaborate or expensive, and it works for us very well.
We now have a second one that is partly earth sheltered for construction materials, project building room, ect.

Steel just went up again, so I don't know what you can get one for locally, but the 20' ones are so much LESS in demand than the 40' ones they are usually cheaper.

I thought about one for water storage,
Coat the inside with fiberglass/resin and store water in it as a cistern, but the price went up before my wallet recovered from the last big purchase,
And I went with plastic tanks instead...

One thing I'm watching pretty closely is a water tower they are tearing down from an old factory...
An interstate bypass is going through the old facility, and the water tower has to go...
That would be the worlds COOLEST hunting stand/fire tower/observation patio around here!

I know it doesn't hold water anymore, but the tank part would sure make a good 'Screen house' and an extended patio around the tank would sure make a nice place to have drinks and watch wildlife!


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## bunkerbob

JeepHammer said:


> I don't recommend an SBR for anything much.
> The best 'Handgun' you can have in a handgun fight is a Carbine,
> And the best 'Battle Rifle' you can have in a rifle gunfight is an ACCURATE semi-auto out about 300 yards away or more!
> 
> I learned 'Weapons Systems' in the military.
> If you are carrying a 'Browning High-Power',
> Then carry a 9mm SMG or Carbine, so you don't have two different kinds of ammo to stock or carry around.
> 
> Personally,
> The AR lowers that accept the Cobray top ends and magazines work great for me.
> you could also get the Cobray tops in pistol and rifle barrel versions and be fine with a 'Weapons System' that not only allowed you a pistol, but a carbine that used the same ammo AND SAME MAGAZINES.
> 
> My Cobray tops have mag well adapters that allow me to use Cobray 9mm and .45 ACP mags, so I don't have to stock a bunch of different mags,
> And they will feed/fire from Sten mags (with the proper mag well adapter), which are cheap and plentiful.
> 
> Not that I think a 9mm is suitable for anything but 'Room Clearing'...
> And since I don't do much of that (I'm not a cop) I just have the junk laying around and don't use it for anything but trading material at gun shows...
> 
> I MUCH prefer my ARs with 16" barrels for things like 'Back Seat' rifles when I'm out on the farm or in the Jeep out on trails or whatever.
> A LOT less hassles with a long barrel firearm when/if I get stopped than if I'm carrying a handgun or SBR.
> 
> I have a bunch of parts, add ons, and other crap,
> But it's all been just that... Crap so far...
> The most viscous thing I've had to shoot at so far was a ground hog trapped in the shed and wanted a piece of my ankles so far!
> And that got dispatched with a .22 bolt rifle!
> 
> SBR has it's applications, but I don't have a use for one...
> I'm mostly a long barrel person, 200 or 300 yards minimum now for coyotes when I stumble across them...
> The occasional skunk or ground hog that sets up house keeping under my buildings, ect.
> 
> *IF*...
> I were to need an SBR,
> I'd go with a bull pup and full length barrel to avoid the $200 registration fee and lengthy paperwork...


Hey Jeep and Magus, need to try and use the Firearms and Gun forum more for this discussion, so it doesn't have to be moved.
Thanks, Bunkerbob

PS... I like my guns to.


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## Magus

I brought it up. :/


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## JeepHammer

Magus said:


> I brought it up. :/


Told you :ignore: !!!!!!

Anyway, good to hear from you,
Now, if I can just find the correct button to push so I don't get an email every time someone posts!....


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## Magus

Same here.its annoying.


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## HozayBuck

Magus said:


> Godz,I felt stupid for shelling out 10K on Y2K supplies.hope the dumb idiot dosen't jump off a bridge when the only thing that happens is a few new age cults drink rat poison flavored kool aid.
> 
> Technically,a Jeep CAN be made to run without batteries or gas,but it has to be converted to rich methane and a generator put in place of the alternator,I forget the size,but it was a lot bigger than standard and you always have to park where you can "roll off".
> 
> It can be done,but you must wonder why........tell the dope to buy a windmill and hook up a Honda electric ATV up to it.


Magus !!
Don't be hearing the finger pointing naysayers !!!! Dude!! Y3K is coming!!! really ..my friends all donated their y2k stuff to food share groups...nice of them, when asked I said.."y3k be a comin!

and I still have all those dried beans and rice and sugar etc etc... and will have till I'm gone! then somebody else gets em...

Me thinks things are gonna get bad pretty fast...well , worse then they are now...


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## RONSERESURPLUS

*No Prob, you can send that extra stuff to me?*

No prob Guys, if you have extra stuff left over, send it to me, I'll take it!

RON


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