# I am Adam Lanza’s Mother...



## CulexPipiens (Nov 17, 2010)

Warning... language....

http://thebluereview.org/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother/



> I am Adam Lanza's Mother
> 
> It's time to talk about mental illness
> 
> ...


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

This is no small problem, prescribing psychotropic drugs just hides and sometimes enhances a volcanic reaction to build up to what we too often see as the end result, chaotic death scenes often followed by suicide. What the scary part is is just how many others like this are out there without any help. I have a neighbor with a 26 year old with Asberger Syndrome and they are constantly looking for and using natural foods, vitamins, minerals and herbs, those thing work but still he does have trip levers, things that can set him off. Otherwise he is smart, plays a mean banjo and has always been friendly toward me. But there is a definite need for help for these people but from what I've seen drugs really aren't the answer.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

BS. There are a lot of people smart and sick to the point they cant function within society. Brains dont make you moral. Lock the kid up. Im ok with it. There are a lot of sad stories in the world. Capable and willing upon your mood to doing harm to me and mine then locked up is better than my doorstep. Sounds cold but its in the best interest of the boy and my fam.


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## mma800 (May 7, 2012)

Thanks for posting this!
Negotiating the world of mental healthcare for kids is a nightmare!
I have 3 dear friends whose 12 yr olds are in psych beds or therapeutic schools RIGHT NOW. These are good parents who have gone thru the revolving door of the emergency room. They have tried meds after meds. They have waited months for a doctors appointment. They have spent more time with school psychologists and guidance counselors than with the other siblings. In 6 years, these kids will be 18 and on their own.
The conversation post Sandy Hook needs to be on fixing this messed up system. Now that this is on the news 24/7 some other troubled soul will try to top in a desperate cry for help or attention.
But CNN will leave Newtown and attention will switch to the next event. The poor kids will get tossed from ER to psych ward and try med after med. then we will all be shocked when another tragedy occurs.
My prayers to all the victims and all the families struggling with kids with mental illness.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

Boys and girls, I am sorry but this is the plain and simple truth of it and most of you will reject it because you have been programmed to throughout your lives.

This kid and his behavioral problems are a direct result of poor parenting... parenting that spared the rod and spoiled the child. Sure, this child is different than her other two... all are different and 9 times out of 10 parenting on this level will turn out just fine but 1 out of 10 (maybe the odds are better/worse) you will raise a complete psychopath.

This kid needed an authoritarian in his life (where is the dad?) and unfortunately now he needs a jailer. This is what happens when you dont do your job parents. Its the simple, plain, sad truth.

Period.

EDIT: I know this because I certainly had the ******* mindset to be the her kid.... but she wasnt my parent... and my dad lit up my a$$ when I asked for it. I learned to control my anger. I learned respect first out of fear... then I learned to respect out of love. Thats the way it works folks!

Parents need to quit copping out... but it wont happen. These types will continue to blame everything/everyone else instead of stepping up to the plate. Parenting is hard and is the most worthwhile thing you will likely ever do.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

TheAnt said:


> Boys and girls, I am sorry but this is the plain and simple truth of it and most of you will reject it because you have been programmed to throughout your lives.
> 
> This kid and his behavioral problems are a direct result of poor parenting... parenting that spared the rod and spoiled the child. Sure, this child is different than her other two... all are different and 9 times out of 10 parenting on this level will turn out just fine but 1 out of 10 (maybe the odds are better/worse) you will raise a complete psychopath.
> 
> ...


or maybe some of us will reject it because we have more than a fifth grade education and understand the difference between poor behavior and mental illness. maybe some will reject it simply because its wrong, in much the same way one might reject the notion that ignorance is strength.


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## Ravensoracle (Oct 4, 2010)

Ant, I have to ask because there is an undercurrent to your post that is very disturbing to me. No you didn't say it directly but I have heard your argument before and a lot of times it is followed by statements about what I want to clarify.

DO you believe that there is such a thing as mental disorders that are not related to the environment that the child grew up in but have a physical foundation?


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

CrackbottomLouis said:


> BS. There are a lot of people smart and sick to the point they cant function within society. Brains dont make you moral. Lock the kid up. Im ok with it. There are a lot of sad stories in the world. Capable and willing upon your mood to doing harm to me and mine then locked up is better than my doorstep. Sounds cold but its in the best interest of the boy and my fam.


Personaly, i think fewer school shootings are in the best interests of my children. I think at least some teachers should be armed at school. I think that most people should be armed. And, i think the mentally ill should be helped BEFORE they snap.

Just locking them up after the fact serves only the interests of the protectionist minded, thus adding emotional fuel for more gun laws, which serves neither my children, nor yours.


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## mamak (Nov 28, 2012)

culex.... Thanks for posting this. Its a really raw protrayal of life with a mentally ill loved one. Also, we all need to remember that someone loved those who have hurt others and their pain is immense.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

FatTire said:


> or maybe some of us will reject it because we have more than a fifth grade education and understand the difference between poor behavior and mental illness. maybe some will reject it simply because its wrong, in much the same way one might reject the notion that ignorance is strength.


You can disagree but calling into question my intellect only shows you have no argument. Perhaps your strength IS ignorance. I knew I would get this kind of response because emotions are high on this issue. Folks dont want to admit that parents are a big part of the problem. Its easier just to drug them up and blame their genetics.



Ravensoracle said:


> Ant, I have to ask because there is an undercurrent to your post that is very disturbing to me. No you didn't say it directly but I have heard your argument before and a lot of times it is followed by statements about what I want to clarify.
> 
> DO you believe that there is such a thing as mental disorders that are not related to the environment that the child grew up in but have a physical foundation?


Yes, I certainly believe "there is such a thing as mental disorders that are not related to the environment that the child grew up in but have a physical foundation" but most of the time that is not the case. Most of the time, even when that is the case, I believe the parent and their unwillingness to discipline (appropriately and consistently) plays a part.

Most of the time the exuse given is that "there is such a thing as mental disorders that are not related to the environment that the child grew up in but have a physical foundation" because this exuses the result of poor parenting. Thats my belief and I am sticking to it.

I would also argue that poor parenting can increase the effects of mental illness and sometimes even cause it. In other cases mental illness is the result of habitual wrong thinking.

In cases where there is a legit case of mental illness proper parenting is the best "cure" for children that would otherwise act out with violence.

Thank you for your kind resonse Ravensoracle.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

TheAnt said:


> You can disagree but calling into question my intellect only shows you have no argument.


right, but you stating that anyone that dissagrees with you is just 'programmed that way? and thats not insulting and calling into question peoples intellect? Sorry bud, but perhaps you should work more on practicing what you preach.

I was glad to later read that you do agree that there is such a thing as mental illness. Ill agree with you that there is a lot of misdiagnosis and over prescribing of psych meds. How that comes to mean we shouldnt help people with real problems, though, is where you lose me. seems to me those are exactly the reasons we more access to mental health help, not less. we see what we get with less. we get media event tragedies that serve only to fuel the protectionist minded, seeking the justify the removal of rights in the name of safety.


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## Ravensoracle (Oct 4, 2010)

Actually The Ant the reason I asked was that I do agree with what you are saying. Parents are using mental disorders as a scape goat to the fact that they don't care enough to take the time needed to raise a child. Many kids are getting drugged just so the parents don't have to deal with them.

I have mental illness issues. I am not going to go into them because this is the internet and, truthfully, I don't feel like sharing to everyone. But they didn't originate because I grew up in a bad family. It may not have been a perfect home but I was raised right, IMHO. I was disciplined when I needed it. I was known as a good kid I think. 

My Issues weren't prevelant until much later in life. Yeah there were some hints of it growing up. But nothing stood out enough to require me even going to see a dr. 

The reason TheAnt I asked is because when I talk to some that begin the conversation with the same ideas you did, many go much further to state that there are no things such as mental illnesses. That the people that suffer are just making it up or were raised wrong. There is a lot or prejudice and discrimination associated with it. In part from the fact that too many are abusing the system and mislabeling kids and adults with illnesses. Also that the stigma is preventing those that really need help from getting it. 

I think the focus of what to do to stop this and other tragedies from happening again needs to be on why these murderers are going out and doing it not how. If these guys are mentally unstable then they need to be gettng better help than what they have been getting and to do that rather than huge gun control reform there needs to be a reform of how society is dealing with mental health issues and how some parents are refusing to deal with their kids.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

FatTire said:


> right, but you stating that anyone that dissagrees with you is just 'programmed that way? and thats not insulting and calling into question peoples intellect? Sorry bud, but perhaps you should work more on practicing what you preach.
> 
> I was glad to later read that you do agree that there is such a thing as mental illness. Ill agree with you that there is a lot of misdiagnosis and over prescribing of psych meds. How that comes to mean we shouldnt help people with real problems, though, is where you lose me. seems to me those are exactly the reasons we more access to mental health help, not less. we see what we get with less. we get media event tragedies that serve only to fuel the protectionist minded, seeking the justify the removal of rights in the name of safety.


I never said we shouldnt help people with real problems. I just think that often times those we think have real problems are the result of poor parenting. The parent needs to be the one to make the call on weather to seek mental help or not but our society seems to think its OK to have single parent households and to withold privileges instead of corporal punishment, and on and on and on and its a lie. Society has now even gone past that point and says that a parent has no right to discipline their child. This is wrong and I believe has resulted in a society FULL of psychopaths.

But see, you go on to say that "we see what we get with less" which sounds to me like you are saying that this guy didnt get enough mental health access and that was the reason he went off. I dont know him from you but before we start saying everyone needs mental health I would say we need to look at how we are raising our kids.... especially those of us who tend to blame "mental health" on things outside our control.

Back to the OP, if I had ever called my Mom a "b!tch" I would have wished I was born without a rear end. Of course I never got to the point I said I wanted to kill my parents because I never got PAST the point I would have called her a "b!tch".

Yes, I think our society is engineered to turn out psychopaths. This is probably not by our design but its by our actions. Its also related to why most of us are on this site prepping. Think about it.


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## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

Well at least she wasn't blaming guns. In the 30's you could get a tommy gun from sears. Full auto! Why no school shootings then? What is different? 2 things - there were far fewer single mom households. Dad plays a huge part in a childs life and without him things go off rail quickly. 2 - they had mental hospitals. Looney people were locked up away for society safety. So when the ACLU closed the mental institutions in the 70's and 80's the insane were set free to roam the earth. Another progressive policy that has set society on the wrong path.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

Ravensoracle said:


> Actually The Ant the reason I asked was that I do agree with what you are saying. Parents are using mental disorders as a scape goat to the fact that they don't care enough to take the time needed to raise a child. Many kids are getting drugged just so the parents don't have to deal with them.
> 
> I have mental illness issues. I am not going to go into them because this is the internet and, truthfully, I don't feel like sharing to everyone. But they didn't originate because I grew up in a bad family. It may not have been a perfect home but I was raised right, IMHO. I was disciplined when I needed it. I was known as a good kid I think.
> 
> ...


I can agree with this and have no problem with this at all.

Entertain this thought for a second: maybe the most important mental health counselors are PARENTS and their actions or inactions are the biggest factor in how their "mentally challenged" kids turn out -- all medical/professional help aside. Perhaps they have been so preached to about how their kids have conditions that require professional/medical help that they excuse themselves for not properly parenting. Perhaps they exuse the fact that they disregard eons of parenting wisdom for popular thought on how to raise children because it excuses their lazyness and garners them pity.

Growing up I was a tough nut to crack. I cussed out teachers, got in fights, was depressed (though never medically diagnosed) all around the third grade. I was a prime candidate for ADHD or some other aggressive disorder if my parents had wanted to pursue that route. Instead they recognised I needed some discipline and those years (9-13 years old) they were tough on me all the while reinforcing their love for me. It worked and I am the man I am because of it. Being a parent is a BIG deal and a frightful responsibility -- one folks too easily designate to so-called "professionals", TV, media and medication.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

TheAnt said:


> I never said we shouldnt help people with real problems. I just think that often times those we think have real problems are the result of poor parenting. The parent needs to be the one to make the call on weather to seek mental help or not but our society seems to think its OK to have single parent households and to withold privileges instead of corporal punishment, and on and on and on and its a lie. Society has now even gone past that point and says that a parent has no right to discipline their child. This is wrong and I believe has resulted in a society FULL of psychopaths.


Society has everyone convinced that if 'dad' spanks his son he is beating him all the time. Corporal punishment has become taboo because kids are no longer afraid to threaten their parents with legal trouble if they punish the kids. I grew up getting smacked when I mouthed off and once even had my mouth washed out with soap. No joke. A bar of Caress was shoved into my mouth and when I tried to close my mouth the soap scrapped off and stuck to my teeth. It took an hour of salt water and brushing my teeth to rid my mouth of that nasty taste! I can't even look at a bar of Caress without still tasting it.

But our society teaches our kids that if mommy and daddy spank them or uses corporal punishment in any way that they need to tell the authorities. That no one should be hitting their kids. While I personally believe that spanking is okay but in excess is not society tells me I can't spank my child for any reason.

Many people are afraid to spank or use corporal punishment because of this political correctness that teaches our kids that parents can not punish them.


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## Ravensoracle (Oct 4, 2010)

Exactly what I was trying to say TheAnt. You are just better at getting the point across.

I agree Grimm. My kids are exceptionally well behaved. Anyone that has watched them have been willing to do it again. Some parents have even asked if they can borrow my kids to help show their kids how to behave. Yes my kids do have their problems but they don't throw tantrums in the middle of the grocery stroe because they don't get a toy or piece of candy. 

People have asked me why the girls behave so well. My answer is because they are disciplined properly. And that discipline has inculded an "Ass whoopin" as my grandma would so eloquently put it. I have been part of several investigations by child services that have all been dropped BTW because there were claims I beat my kids. Most have been from teachers or family that think I should not even touch my children at all. I do not abuse my children and I will be the first in line to stop someone that does. But I look at these people that have turned me in because I spanked my child and see that their children seem to be the ones having a lot of behavioral problems.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

Grimm said:


> Society has everyone convinced that if 'dad' spanks his son he is beating him all the time. Corporal punishment has become taboo because kids are no longer afraid to threaten their parents with legal trouble if they punish the kids. I grew up getting smacked when I mouthed off and once even had my mouth washed out with soap. No joke. A bar of Caress was shoved into my mouth and when I tried to close my mouth the soap scrapped off and stuck to my teeth. It took an hour of salt water and brushing my teeth to rid my mouth of that nasty taste! I can't even look at a bar of Caress without still tasting it.
> 
> But our society teaches our kids that if mommy and daddy spank them or uses corporal punishment in any way that they need to tell the authorities. That no one should be hitting their kids. While I personally believe that spanking is okay but in excess is not society tells me I can't spank my child for any reason.
> 
> Many people are afraid to spank or use corporal punishment because of this political correctness that teaches our kids that parents can not punish them.


Hence our society of psychopaths... then add to that all the psychotic drugs, sex before being old enough to deal with it mentally, violent media without proper context, moral relativism, denegration of faith, no wonder we have so many violent acts in this day and age. Problem is there are so many folks on the psycho-path that they lack the perspective to see the problems for what they are.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

Ravensoracle said:


> Exactly what I was trying to say TheAnt. You are just better at getting the point across.
> 
> I agree Grimm. My kids are exceptionally well behaved. Anyone that has watched them have been willing to do it again. Some parents have even asked if they can borrow my kids to help show their kids how to behave. Yes my kids do have their problems but they don't throw tantrums in the middle of the grocery stroe because they don't get a toy or piece of candy.
> 
> People have asked me why the girls behave so well. My answer is because they are disciplined properly. And that discipline has inculded an "Ass whoopin" as my grandma would so eloquently put it. I have been part of several investigations by child services that have all been dropped BTW because there were claims I beat my kids. Most have been from teachers or family that think I should not even touch my children at all. I do not abuse my children and I will be the first in line to stop someone that does. But I look at these people that have turned me in because I spanked my child and see that their children seem to be the ones having a lot of behavioral problems.


Raven, thank you for being a good parent. We are all blessed for it. My parents were also investigated. You talked about stigma... there is stigma against proper parenting. You have done well. My Mom used to get asked "how do you get your kids to be so good" and she would answer "because I dont give them a choice". I got spanked when little for climbing up the steps in the courthouse... of course I was a toddler and was prone to falling and my mother didnt want me to get hurt. She told me "no" I did it anyway. Someone saw and reported it and next thing you know they are asking Mom if Dad beats her and all kinds of stupid crap.

Raven, you know what is best for your kids but you be careful not to get caught administering proper parenting in view of the liberal machine. Big ups!


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## biobacon (Aug 20, 2012)

I would like to thank the OP for this sad story. I will always remember one of the victims because she has the same name as my one year old. That boy needed help, from his Dad and from the mental health system, both failed him, It would be the toughest thing I ever had to do to commit my boy to such a place but I love him to much to see something like that happen to him.The women who drove he boy to such a place is as brave or more so then a soldier going into a battle. I spanked my son last night when he was bad and felt like crap for doing it, ( as I always do even if its just yellling at him to stop pushing his sister down), after he calmed down we talked about why he got in trouble, then I gave have him a hug and told him I loved him enough to make sure he did the right thing. I pray every day Im not screwing him up. I didnt have a dad as he ran off and Im just going by what I learned from my Grandpa and My scoutmaster


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## Hooch (Jul 22, 2011)

Jails are not supposed to be used as mental health institutions. Over the years I've seen our justice system become the only way for society to deal with the more violent folks with mental health issues because of the closures of so many of our nations mental health houses. It is very reactive to wait till someone to nut up n blow a mall or school away to deal with those in our society who are not right in the head n can't function or are a danger to US all. As someone who works in a jail...it's very frustrating dealing with these people in a jail setting. It is not the appropriate setting for them..wastes more money dealing with them as they require more management. They cost jails a lot in medical expenses supervision n damage to themselves or others when they nut up in a tank. They endanger others in jail n cause fights which in turn further endangers jail staff...all the while jails like ours are expected to work a jail off 100 or so inmates to 3 staff on the floor with crazys in the mix ...not ok. Back in the day..ones with violent or non managable disorders went to the funny firm n lived out their probably miserable lives under the control of those who were trained n armed with ttranquilizers to control the violent episodes. Before that ..way back in the day...those folks who were the violent nuts didn't survive long. It is tragic in ways as some as I've seen really are out of control..from what I've witnessed..n jail is not for them...nor is society. In my opinion we need to open up the locked facilities again or we will continue to see mass violenice. Gun control is not the answer...and bad parenting isn't a cause . These people are mentally defective...no amount of great parenting or drugs will help them..


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

To those saying mental illness is caused by poor parenting... Thank you. I'm glad someone recognizes this. Poor parenting also causes heart disease, cancer, premature ejaculation, arthritis and a receding hair line.

Now that I'm done with the sarcasm...

I have psychiatric problems and if you think I wasn't disciplined as a child, you're making assumptions you know nothing about. The issues I dealt with weren't diagnosed until I was middle aged. I didn't even recognize that something was wrong. A random offhanded remark during a doctors visit led him to run some tests that identified a problem. I'm thankful and wish I'd had the opportunity for treatment earlier.

Were there signs while I were younger? Possibly, but I was hardly a problem child. Excellent grades, social, well behaved, but I did have frequent mood swings. Recognizing problems in a hormonal teenager is not exactly easy. Children now are different than they were years ago. They mature faster, are exposed to more violence and have a lower expectation of an idealistic society than we had growing up. To us, thing would get better as adults. To them, there is no escape. They see their parents slaving and know that's what lies in their future as well.

There's a huge difference in biological psychological *disorders* due to inadequate development of certain regions of the brain or imbalance of seratonin, dopamine or norepinephrine and psychological *issues* that arrise from abuse or neglect. Each can be influenced by the other either positively or negatively.

Thinking the disorders are the same is a mistake many make.

The human brain is not a machine.. or at least one that we understand. Machinery is defined by rules and characteristics we can define and troubleshoot to the point of knowing exactly why it failed or acted in an incorrect manner. No two brains are alike, They're different from every other one at birth, affected by things such as genetics along with conditions encountered during pregnancy. All during life, the brain is constantly changing due to life experiences.

Psychiatry is and always will be an inexact science. People should be more willing to accept treatment and/or recommend others for treatment, but there's always the risk of alienating ones you love due to a mistake and nobody wants that.

Sometimes there are no prior signs before a breakdown. I know it's fiction, but "Falling Down" portraid this type of breakdown. You can't measure the stress someone is encountering or how much they can handle.

Do we need everyone to undergo mandatory yearly mental evaluations? Unless you wish to have a file created on you and everyone else for this purpose, there is no way to identify even a fraction of those at risk.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

My neighbors son was born premature, didn't get the proper oxygen to his brain and had issues from his birth and damn sure didn't need his ass whipped to straighten him out. That being said I worked for 20 years custodial/ maintenance for a local school district and I knew more than a few autistic children, some truly needed help and others I could see were using the attention as a crutch and needed their butts whipped. I remember when I was in grade school seeing a few kids that had mental issues and even then I realized it could have been abuse at home. I knew one girl that I asked to date, she told me she couldn't, religious situation I think, years later I saw her and she said she had gone temporarly blind for no reason. I put two and two together and figured her dad was probably having incest with her. It seems awfully easy to judge things you see but unless you proverbially walk a mile in the shoes of those having to deal with these situations I'd be a bit careful how you judge. I remember very well a guy I knew that joked about being a hair lip, that is until his son was born a hair lip.


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

TheAnt said:


> The parent needs to be the one to make the call on weather to seek mental help or not but our society seems to think its OK to have single parent households and to withold privileges instead of corporal punishment, and on and on and on and its a lie. Society has now even gone past that point and says that a parent has no right to discipline their child. This is wrong and I believe has resulted in a society FULL of psychopaths.


I can walk this path with you only so far. Yes, the normalization of single parent households is having disastrous effects on people. Yes, the restrictions placed on parents with regard to corporal punishment removes a very effective behavior modification tactic from the parents and tilts the balance away from behavior being modified towards behavior becoming tolerated. However, I see no connection between these issues and the onset of psychopathy.

To grow a psychopath via only environmental intervention would require tactics that are far more severe in effect than what you lay out or, for that matter, any of the liberal lax parenting ideologies that are floating around.

Psychopathy is a brain wiring issue, not a learned behavior. For brain wiring to be modified via environmental influences would require huge amounts of trauma and we're nowhere even close to that with things like a single mother raising children.


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

TheAnt said:


> Entertain this thought for a second: maybe the most important mental health counselors are PARENTS and their actions or inactions are the biggest factor in how their "mentally challenged" kids turn out -- all medical/professional help aside.


You are VASTLY overestimating the influence that parents have on how their children turn out, and I mean VASTLY.

Children are individuals, just like their parents are individuals. It's quite easy to train your child to be a show monkey when they are a baby but as the child grows the child begins to assert his own personality more and more. We all did that when we were growing up. You can't modify behavior so totally that a learned pattern will override the child's own inclinations as the child ages. What works when they are 4 and malleable won't work when they are 16 and headstrong.



> Growing up I was a tough nut to crack. I cussed out teachers, got in fights, was depressed (though never medically diagnosed) all around the third grade. I was a prime candidate for ADHD or some other aggressive disorder if my parents had wanted to pursue that route. Instead they recognised I needed some discipline and those years (9-13 years old) they were tough on me all the while reinforcing their love for me. It worked and I am the man I am because of it.


About twenty minutes after I get up in the morning the sun begins to rise. Does this mean that my getting up in the morning is causing the sun to rise?

You were a hellion when you were a kid. It's quite likely that one of your parents was also a hellion at that age. Did either of your parents exhibits the same behaviors as an adult that you were exhibiting as a child? The simple fact here is that you grew into the person you became because you were following the developmental path programmed into your DNA. What the strict discipline did was to restrict you from acting out on your impulses for a time but it quite likely didn't train you not to have those impulses. As you matured, part of your developmental growth resulted in you having better control of your impulses, just like most adults have better impulse control than most 8 year old boys.


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## mma800 (May 7, 2012)

Fuming! 
Yes there are some really bad parents out there, BUT in my experience, most of the people I have met who are managing their child's mental health are wonderful parents. They may be overprotective, but that I believe includes a lot of bad advice they have been given by their docs and schools. Most are doing the best they can for their kids and shame on anyone for judging them.
This is way TMI, but we are lucky enough to have amazing access to the best possible care, plenty of resources to afford the best treatments available and 2 devoted and grounded parents, as well as 4 local and supportive grandparents and many Aunts/Uncles/Friends, yet we have 3 kids 2 with mental health issues and struggle to find them ANY adequate services. How dare you judge the parents if you dont know what they are going through? Kinda like blaming rape victims, Kwim?
No one wants their kid to be a mass murderer or criminal. A few parents may be apathetic, but where I live, most are beating their freaking heads against a wall to get help at any cost, personally, professionally or financially.
I have spent almost $100,000 for one years tuition for my daughter to be in a therapeutic preschool.( That does not include private OT/PT/ Speech/ Social skills group .)
My husband and I have NO psychiatric issues. 
I left my job to be here with them full time since birth to address their emotional, educational and religious needs. My husband and I are both graduate school educated professionals with intact family dynamics for 3 generations. No Daddy issues, chemical dependency or family baggage here, thank you very much. We live simply and have not been handed a silver spoon.

I finally started a middle school for like minded kids when none was available for my child, going through local, state and federal boundaries to do so, including the dreaded IRS. That took over 4 years.

My husband will move heaven and earth to be home at 5 pm for our kids, and then spend long hours back again at the hospital to finish his day.
We follow a strict routine and discipline model as directed by ivy league trained professionals, approved by our pediatrician and therapist.

Love, faith, kindness, compassion and tenderness are priorities for our family.
We still struggle, although things are much better now. As we head towards adolescence, who knows what will happen. Lack of effort will not be a verifiable excuse if things go poorly. We have been very lucky and have had enough family support, faith in God, money, time and access to assure the best possible outcome for our kids.

Most parents are not even close to being as fortunate. 

Walk a mile before you paint all the parents with the same brush. 

Just sayin.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

'bad parenting' is a cop-out that avoids dealing with difficult societal issues, such as a big one Hooch brought up... Definately food for thought and a perspective we might want to consider if we want to effect change, rather than just find someone to blame...


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

It is what it is ... 'bad parenting' is a cop-out ... not at all times. 

It comes down to a lot of different things. (That is IMO ... ) But we can't paint the problem with the same brush. 

But I think you know that ...


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## Foreverautumn (Oct 25, 2010)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, FatTire, bad/non-existent parenting is a "cop-out," drugs are a cop-out, violent video games/entertainment is a cop-out, institutionalizing them is a cop-out, EVERYTHING seems to be a cop-out! No one wants to ACTUALLY DEAL with anything, 'cause (*GASP!*) we might actually OFFEND somebody's fine sensibilities.

Sorry if I'm viewing the world in too much "black and white," but ultimately shooting rampages, violence, vandalism, etc. are ultimately a BEHAVIORAL CHARACTERISTIC. We seem to be in "Oprah Mode" and talk and act as if nothing influences behavior WHATSOEVER. We're told that violent media doesn't have anything to do with it, bad/non-existent parenting doesn't have anything to do with it, lack of faith/morals doesn't have anything to do with it, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah. Well, my money's on all of the above.

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as an insensitive right-wing nutjob, but the way I see it, the bottom line is this:

Life is seldom fair or just
It is almost IMPOSSIBLE to predict an individual's behavior
You cannot always predict danger
You cannot always avoid danger
Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20
REAL FREEDOM, for those who can stomach it, is necessarily REACTIVE, because of items 2-5

There - I'm off my soapbox


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

Foreverautumn said:


> Yeah, yeah, yeah, FatTire, bad/non-existent parenting is a "cop-out," drugs are a cop-out, violent video games/entertainment is a cop-out, institutionalizing them is a cop-out, EVERYTHING seems to be a cop-out! No one wants to ACTUALLY DEAL with anything, 'cause (*GASP!*) we might actually OFFEND somebody's fine sensibilities.
> 
> Sorry if I'm viewing the world in too much "black and white," but ultimately shooting rampages, violence, vandalism, etc. are ultimately a BEHAVIORAL CHARACTERISTIC. We seem to be in "Oprah Mode" and talk and act as if nothing influences behavior WHATSOEVER. We're told that violent media doesn't have anything to do with it, bad/non-existent parenting doesn't have anything to do with it, lack of faith/morals doesn't have anything to do with it, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah. Well, my money's on all of the above.


So you're saying that nobody is actually genetically predisposed to violence. Correct? That good parenting, environment and such can take one baby and turn him into Ghandi or Jeffrey Dahmer, depending on the circumstances?



Foreverautumn said:


> I'm sorry if I'm coming across as an insensitive right-wing nutjob, but the way I see it, the bottom line is this:
> 
> Life is seldom fair or just
> It is almost IMPOSSIBLE to predict an individual's behavior
> ...


Nothing you said is insensitive or right wing. It's all true, but I'm uncertain why it's put here. I don't think anyone has stated anything to the contrary.

Care to put out your version of a solution? Even a partial one?


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

Bobbb said:


> I can walk this path with you only so far. Yes, the normalization of single parent households is having disastrous effects on people. Yes, the restrictions placed on parents with regard to corporal punishment removes a very effective behavior modification tactic from the parents and tilts the balance away from behavior being modified towards behavior becoming tolerated. However, I see no connection between these issues and the onset of psychopathy.
> 
> To grow a psychopath via only environmental intervention would require tactics that are far more severe in effect than what you lay out or, for that matter, any of the liberal lax parenting ideologies that are floating around.
> 
> Psychopathy is a brain wiring issue, not a learned behavior. For brain wiring to be modified via environmental influences would require huge amounts of trauma and we're nowhere even close to that with things like a single mother raising children.


Oh Bobbb, please enlighten us on how the brain works and how it is wired. I am sure you know.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

TheAnt said:


> Oh Bobbb, please enlighten us on how the brain works


I'm not certain yours does so any explanation would be wasted.


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

TheAnt said:


> Oh Bobbb, please enlighten us on how the brain works and how it is wired. I am sure you know.


Ask a more specific question about process. Look, every thought you have has an underlying neurochemical process - your thinking is expressed via a chemical reaction. If for whatever reason a chemical reaction cannot be achieved then that thought cannot originate.

Similarly in the reverse, if you believe that the conscious mind and training can tame chemical reactions and neurological pathways, then train yourself to be sexually attracted to a man or to a mouse or to a spoon.

The issue is a tad different for children in that their brains are growing and the battle that emerges as maturation develops is that the child wants to assert his own inclination and is less willing to comply with orders which run counter to their own inclination. For behavioral conditioning to be effective it has to traumatic enough that the neurochemical processes underlying our thoughts can, via a few different processes, rewire or activate parts of our brains that would otherwise remain unaffected. Here's a classic example - MAO-A, the "Warrior Gene" which has its effects amplified by traumatic childhood physical or sexual abuse, that is, genes and environment working together:

Monoamine oxidase A is an enzyme that breaks down important neurotransmitters in the brain, including dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin. The enzyme is regulated by monoamine oxidase A gene (MAOA). Humans have various forms of the gene, resulting in different levels of enzymatic activity. People with the low-activity form (MAOA-L) produce less of the enzyme, while the high-activity form (MAOA-H) produces more of the enzyme.

Several studies have found a correlation between the low-activity form of MAOA and aggression in observational and survey-based studies. Only about a third of people in Western populations have the low-activity form of MAOA. By comparison, low-activity MAOA has been reported to be much more frequent (approaching two-thirds of people) in some populations that had a history of warfare. This led to a controversy over MAOA being dubbed the "warrior gene."​
Here's more:

"While gangs typically have been regarded as a sociological phenomenon, our investigation shows that variants of a specific MAOA gene, known as a 'low-activity 3-repeat allele,' play a significant role," said Beaver, an award-winning researcher who has co-authored more than 50 published papers on the biosocial underpinnings of criminal behavior.

"Previous research has linked low-activity MAOA variants to a wide range of antisocial, even violent, *behavior*, but our study confirms that these variants can predict gang membership," he said. "Moreover, we found that variants of this gene could distinguish gang members who were markedly more likely to *behave *violently and use weapons from members who were less likely to do either."

The MAOA gene affects levels of neurotransmitters such as dopamine and serotonin that are related to mood and *behavior*, and those variants that are related to violence are *hereditary*. Some previous studies have found the "warrior gene" to be more prevalent in cultures that are typified by warfare and aggression.​


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

Bobbb said:


> Ask a more specific question about process. Look, every thought you have has an underlying neurochemical process - your thinking is expressed via a chemical reaction. If for whatever reason a chemical reaction cannot be achieved then that thought cannot originate.
> 
> Similarly in the reverse, if you believe that the conscious mind and training can tame chemical reactions and neurological pathways, then train yourself to be sexually attracted to a man or to a mouse or to a spoon.
> 
> ...


Maybe I missed it (or maybe I am just stupid as other would like to suggest) but this article says that traumatic behavioral conditioning can effectively rewire the brain but it doesnt even start to describe what that "traumatic behavioral conditioning" means... some would say that corporal discipline is traumatic and I would disagree but maybe we would both agree that it is effective at rewiring the brain.

I know this might come as a surprise to those of you who are not Christians but we believe that sin (in fact evil) is passed down from one generation to the next through the seed of the father (hence the necessity of the virgin birth of our Saviour Jesus Christ) and that in fact children are BORN with the need for rewiring. I would advocate, as does the Bible, that one tool -- not to be "spared" -- for brain rewiring is corporal discipline. I would argue that Biblical child rearing does not advocate "traumatic" discipline but a level that is adequate to rewire.

Now we are only arguing degrees.

If so-called "tramatic" discipline is required to rewire the brain of naturally sinful (what other word can I use that is more palatable to you) children then parents are in fact capable of rearing psychotic children by neglecting the use of that tool. Hence "spare the rod (your so-called traumatic discipline), spoil (to damage irreparably; ruin) the child".

Now obviously other truly traumatic events can ALSO cause rewiring of the brain in a way that is not beneficial to the child -- neither I nor the Bible advocate that. I would argue the level of trauma required to alter the brain one way or the other is at a much lower level than you are willing to recognise.


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

TheAnt said:


> . . . says that traumatic behavioral conditioning can effectively rewire the brain but it doesnt even start to describe what that "traumatic behavioral conditioning" means... some would say that corporal discipline is traumatic and I would disagree but maybe we would both agree that it is effective at rewiring the brain.


Here is another article:

Genes are strongly influenced by environment, so the team also tracked how the children were raised.

"By age 11, 36 percent of the subjects had been maltreated (8 percent severely), as defined by frequent changes in primary caregiver, rejection by the mother and physical or sexual abuse," Moffitt said.

If the abused boys had one version of the MAOA gene that caused their brains to produce too little of the enzyme, they were nine times more likely to become antisocial, the researchers said.

"Symptoms of this antisocial behavior include persistent fighting, bullying, lying, stealing and disobeying the rules during adolescence," Moffitt said. . . . .

"As adults, 85 percent of the severely maltreated children who also had the gene for low MAOA activity developed anti-social outcomes, such as violent criminal behavior," Moffitt said in a statement.* The abused children with normal MAOA genes were no more likely to be anti-social than those who were not abused, the study found.*

*Boys who had been maltreated but who had higher levels of MAOA were unlikely to develop behavior problems*. Their version of the gene "may promote trauma resistance," Moffitt said.​
Traumatic events in a person's life induce strong chemical reactions in the brain. When the genetic foundation is such that the brain is wired to react to those chemicals, then we can see behavioral changes take root. If the brain isn't wired to be responsive then future behavior or instinct will not be modified.

So taking the example above, if one is born with the low activity allele of MAO-A and does not suffer trauma in childhood then the gene-moderated behavior will be in the range of those born with different alleles. Those born with the high activity allele can experience trauma in childhood and not have their brains "rewired" as a result of the trauma.

The point here is that the conditioning of a child during their formative years is moderated by their child's own thinking, feeling, instinct, desire, inclination, etc and as the child grows into the person that they are to become they will, once they have the freedom to do so, keep or cast off whatever learned behaviors they were forced to submit to as part of their maturation process.

To bring this back to your point, have you ever looked at the results of the Twins Raised Apart research. This is fascinating stuff. Twins who were separated at birth and never knew each other are reunited in adulthood and the similarities in behavior are astounding and yet they were raised in quite different environments.

You being a hellion as a young boy and then being disciplined and then growing up to be a responsible man doesn't mean that the discipline was the transformative agent - you were a hellion as a child because you were a child acting on your desires and impulses rather than because you were taught to be a hellion, and it's quite likely that one of your parents was also a hellion at the same age. The discipline imposed on you restricted your freedom to act on your hellionish impulses but this was occurring at the same time that you were also maturing. It's a good bet that your behavior would have modified towards maturity and responsibility even without having strict discipline imposed on you. Did your mother ever force cod liver oil on you? Now that you're an adult do you still take a teaspoon per day of that stuff or did you cast off that "training" and "discipline" that was forced on you?

And finally to bring this back to the OP - the parents of these children can't fix what is wrong with the brain wiring simply by hugging the kids more or disciplining them more - the behavior of these children is not a learned behavior that can be unlearned, it's behavior that has origins like your hunger pains or your desire to lay down and sleep. What can work to help constrain the children's impulses and thoughts is to exercise will power, for the child to learn to recognize a particular mood or behavior pattern and will themselves to do something else, just like a smoker can will himself not to smoke, a fat person can will themselves not to eat, and the results of this learned behavior modification applied via conscious choice will produce results as varied as we see with people who will themselves to stop smoking or to lose weight - some can do it and some cannot. The power of the neurochemical impulse seems to overwhelm the conscious decision to suppress that impulse, that is, the desire to eat overwhelms the conscious decision to not eat, and so on.

These kids are, quite often, wired differently and you can't fix them by applying strict parenting to modify their thoughts, impulses and behaviors.



> I would advocate, as does the Bible, that one tool -- not to be "spared" -- for brain rewiring is corporal discipline. I would argue that Biblical child rearing does not advocate "traumatic" discipline but a level that is adequate to rewire.


What discipline does is it kicks up the willpower in the child so that they modify their own behavior and this buys temporary peace for the parents. As the child matures the significance of the punishment diminishes. Has your Dad tried to spank you lately in order to get you to phone your mother more frequently? Would you laugh in his face if he tried to pull that on you now?

Disciplining children is fine if the intent is to control their behavior in the present, but it's a mostly futile act as part of a strategy to shape the behavior of the child. If your child is inclined to over-eating or lethary, then punishing them when they eat a twinkie or veg out on the couch watching TV is not going to make them become supermodel thin or turn them into a long distance runner. You can withhold twinkies from your kids and you can forcibly take your kids out jogging every day, but once they mature enough to exert themselves and override your discipline, they'll eat the twinkie and they'll forgo a 5 mile run in order to do nothing instead.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

What you are saying is not entirely untrue but is not universally true. In some cases, as I mentioned before, there are truly chemical imbalances that are not the result of discipline or the lack thereof. 

As far as the second part of what you said I agree that at some point the child matures to the point that discipline of a physical nature is not what motivates them... if they have not been "rewired" to adhere to acceptable standards then they are not going to be rewired by anything. Part of the parental "rewiring" is teaching that actions have consequences and some actions are NEVER acceptable. If you are only spanking and not relating to the child afterward the reasoning then all they learn is that they have to do what you say as long as there is threat of force being used. You are certainly "rewiring" them but you are rewiring them to be beter liers or other. As for myself there came a time when I knew I could get away with stuff and that my parents could not discipline me for stuff but I also knew that there were other consequences... some criminal, some social, some spiritual. I had been taught a regard for others and a reason for that regard. I would NEVER have come to this on my own -- children are born the epitomy of "self-centered". Kids who have grown up completely devoid of human contact are wild animals -- you know this. They have no regard for your well being, no regard for law, no regard for social norms, etc. After a certain point they are not capable of becoming what we would consider "human".. they are ferral. Sure that is a traumatic experience but its also devoid of parenting. Its one end of the spectrum of parenting... a complete lack thereof. You speak as though the parent has no role in the psychology of a child unless they cause "trauma" to them and that is just frighteningly unbelievable.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

Im sorry Bobbb, I cant argue this forever but if you believe there is no role for a parent in the psychological makeup of a child I hope you never have any. I know many dont want to believe what I have said. Some are certain I am incorrect. I hope you either have no children or that you are very lucky and they turn out great but I think you are headed down a dangerous road. Still I think parents can be the only ones to say how their children are raised. Even believing as I do I think it is the parents right to call BS on me and do it the way they like... go for it!


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

TheAnt said:


> You speak as though the parent has no role in the psychology of a child unless they cause "trauma" to them and that is just frighteningly unbelievable.


Adam Lanza's brother had the same mother and the same father and was raised in the same household and grew up in the same neighborhood and was subjected to the same values and examples as his brother and look at the different result.

Most of us have siblings and most of us are quite different from our siblings yet most all of us were raised in the same environments.

Twins raised apart are frighteningly similar and yet they were actually raised by different parents, under different conditions, etc.

Two good books which shattered the sloppy research that had been done on child development. Both are worthwhile to show lay readers how science is taken apart and the conclusions tested. Plenty of scientists who had their work featured in the book are still angry at being shown to be charlatans

The Nurture Assumption: Why Children Turn Out The Way They Do.

This groundbreaking book, a Pulitzer Prize finalist and New York Times notable pick, rattled the psychological establishment when it was first published in 1998 by claiming that parents have little impact on their children's development. In this tenth anniversary edition of The Nurture Assumption, Judith Harris has updated material throughout and provided a fresh introduction. Combining insights from psychology, sociology, anthropology, primatology, and evolutionary biology, she explains how and why the tendency of children to take cues from their peers works to their evolutionary advantage. This electrifying book explodes many of our unquestioned beliefs about children and parents and gives us a radically new view of childhood.​
No Two Alike: Human Nature and Human Individuality

The author of the controversial book The Nurture Assumption tackles the biggest mystery in all of psychology: What makes people differ so much in personality and behavior? It can't just be "nature and nurture," because even identical twins who grow up together-same genes, same parents-have different personalities. And if psychologists can't explain why identical twins are different, they also can't explain why each of us differs from everyone else. Why no two people are alike.

Harris turns out to be well suited for the role of detective-it isn't easy to pull the wool over her eyes. She rounds up the usual suspects and shows why none of the currently popular explanations for human differences-birth order effects, for example, or interactions between genes and environment-can be the perpetrator she is looking for. None of these theories can solve the mystery of human individuality.

The search for clues carries Harris into some fascinating byways of science. The evidence she examines ranges from classic experiments in social psychology to cutting-edge research in neuroscience. She looks at studies of twins, research on autistic children, observations of chimpanzees, birds, and even ants.

Her solution is a startlingly original one: the first completely new theory of personality since Freud's. Based on a principle of evolutionary psychology-the idea that the human mind is a toolbox of special-purpose devices-Harris's theory explains how attributes we all have in common can make us different.

This is the story of a scientific quest, but it is also the personal story of a courageous and innovative woman who refused to be satisfied with "what everyone knows is true."​


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## Foreverautumn (Oct 25, 2010)

labotomi said:


> So you're saying that nobody is actually genetically predisposed to violence. Correct? That good parenting, environment and such can take one baby and turn him into Ghandi or Jeffrey Dahmer, depending on the circumstances?
> 
> Nothing you said is insensitive or right wing. It's all true, but I'm uncertain why it's put here. I don't think anyone has stated anything to the contrary.
> 
> Care to put out your version of a solution? Even a partial one?


Your point is well taken, labotomi. I think what I'm saying is that our whole culture seems to encourage passivity, learned helplessness, and victimhood, and the logic usually goes something like this:
"Oh, no, we can't do anything about anything! We're just mere mortals! Parents are incompetent mouth-breathers, so they have to be told how to parent, 'it takes a village to raise a child,' don't you know? And actually having a religious/moral underpinning in anything? PERISH the thought! And oh, no no - we can't DARE actually *institutionalize* those who clearly a threat; that would violate their civil rights! No, let's just take away everybody's guns (the American people are just a bunch of sexists/bigots/racists/homophobes anyway); that way, they'll still kill people, they just won't kill 25-30 people at a time." But there are things we *can* definitely do to alleviate the problem.

We need to give parents more leeway as how to discipline their children. This "one size fits all" crap we get from gov't, PSAs, etc is just that - CRAP! Allow corporal punishment, encourage home schooling, abolish the Dept of Education (I'm not kidding!), get government out of our lives as much as possible. Encourage the teachers and other school staff to BE ARMED! (These are some of the most carefully screened and heavily monitored people on earth!) In college and universities, encourage the students to be armed. I would even go so far as to even permit HIGH SCHOOL students to be armed (I'm not kidding on that one, either).

We have reached the point where it is very difficult to have someone committed, even when they are clearly a threat to those around him. Cho (the guy who shot up Virginia Tech), Laughner (the guy who shot up that Safeway in Tucson), Holmes (the guy who shot up the movie theater in Aurora), and of course, Lanza, all have one thing in common - they were all perceived by everyone around them as being insane and ready to "pop." Why weren't they institutionalized earlier? Because it's politically incorrect to deal with the problem of mental illness, so nobody deals with it. And when something like this happens, what do the pundits and talking heads do? They advocate for making everybody equally helpless so big government can get even MORE involved in our lives, and screw our lives up even more.

While I do admit there are those who are genetically predisposed to violence, genes don't have the final say. As feminists are VERY fond of pointing out, just being a male predisposes you to violence. And as we all know, being male has definite genetic basis. And yet, you don't see all or even most men going nuts like this. Why not? Because environmental factors, such as presence or absence of religion, parenting, culture, etc make a big difference in how boys turn out. Just like dog breeds; some breeds, like rotweilers and pitbulls, have a certain aggressive temperment, but a lot of breeders will also tell you that everything depends on what the owners do and how they train them.

Now, having said all that, yes, lobotami, there are those that, no matter what you do, will become violent. Yes, they're mentally defective, like Hooch pointed out. In short, we need to pay more attention to parenting/faith/morals/culture, we need to streamline the institutionalization of these mentally defective people, and lastly, we need to encourage an ARMED CITIZENRY.

And, as an aside, I mentioned those 5 points because there are indeed those who think that there should be ABSOLUTE security, and don't want there to be ANY risk WHATSOEVER.


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