# Alternatives to guns for protection



## kemps (Jun 1, 2015)

Hey ya'll. I know its been a bit since I've been on. I am trying to figure out the best options for me (as well as the other two) for self defense/protection. I'd like to stay away from guns for multiple reasons so am looking at alternative ideas. Either lethal or non-lethal is fine by me as I would only use it in the event of being attacked or a break in situation. It needs to be a more reasonablly priced option and something that would work well for someone with not really any weapons training. I'll obviously get lessons etc for whatever I decide to go with but I don't think I can get the other two on board with it.  I've been looking on BudK but I have never ordered anything from them and am unsure of if they are actually worth ordering or not. Any advice would be more than appreciated. Thanks ya guys-Kemps


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## IlliniWarrior (Nov 30, 2010)

only thing I can say is good luck with it .... there's the old adage "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight" ....


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## SwordsandSaddles (Mar 14, 2015)

NEVER BUY ANYTHING FROM BUD K!!!!

That said, are you comfortable with martial arts of any sort? I do weapons based martial arts, and can recommend several, but I need to know how you feel about them before I start offering suggestions.


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## ras1219como (Jan 15, 2013)

May I ask why you want to stay away from guns? Your reasons may effect the other types of weapons you could use. 

I would suggest looking into a crossbow or recurve bow for longer range encounters. But you'll need to be strong enough to handle the draw weight. 

Knives and swords are good for close quarter combat but require a pretty significant amount of constant training to maintain proficiency. 

Other items like the bo staff also require quite a lot of training. 

Bud K is an alright catalog but you should be careful when ordering some things. The quality isn't always the best so pay attention to that.


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## ras1219como (Jan 15, 2013)

Also you should look into several kinds of alternative weapons that meet various needs. A security plan needs diversity to succeed.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

I do understand why some people do not want to have firearms. I have been thinking about protection for 50 years. It always comes down to one thing. In a life or death situation there is only one type of protection that will even the odds, a firearm.

My suggestion if you don't want a firearm then always be with some one that's has a firearm.


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## jnrdesertrats (Jul 3, 2010)

Due to your physical restraints I would recommend hiring some muscle. By that I mean a big ass dog that is well trained. You do not have money but you do have lots of time. Good luck.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

How about pepper spray or bear spray? Taser? Some homemade booby traps? What about BB or pellet guns? Sling shots?


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## bigg777 (Mar 18, 2013)

A 100 lb. , well trained German Shepard and a taser, backed-up with Guard Alaska bear spray will almost equal the protection you can get from a 20 gauge shotgun throwing 00 buckshot! Good Luck!


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## HardCider (Dec 13, 2013)

If you are OK with lethal means and don't mind going to training it seems that small arms of some sort is really the way to go. Going to some sort of professionally run program before even buying a gun may make you much less wary of going the firearm route. If you are still totally against guns, I like the idea above about a huge well trained dog. Even if you own weapons I think you should still have a huge well trained dog. Dogs hear and smell what we only wish in our dreams we could. Unfortunately, if the SHTF for real, that is the first thing a true professional thug will take out.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

The advantage to a gun is standoff distance. If your assailants have firearms and you don't then they have the standoff advantage. If your worried about killing someone be aware that about 80% of the people shot by a handgun survive. 

If you want to go with the hand to hand option then consider a dojo that includes edged and blunt weapons in the training. Understand that if you get close enough to use a knife or a club that they will be close enough to hurt you. Understand that if you get into a knife fight you will get cut.

Bear spray or the like is only effective on about 70% of the people. Your police and military are trained to fight through the pain of the sprays and gasses. If you use a spray inside the house or other confined area you will be gassing yourself as well as the assailant.

As mentioned above a well trained dog is an excellent choice as both protection and early warning.

Whatever weapon you choose you will spend more money on training than on the weapon.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Tweto said:


> I have been thinking about protection for 50 years. It always comes down to one thing. In a life or death situation there is only one type of protection that will even the odds, a firearm.


Truth.

people have lots of reasons for not wanting a firearm - - usually with kids around, but that wasn't a problem for me as a kid or for my siblings!

Anyway, the firearm is the best ever "force equalizer" or "force multiplier". Take careful note of the words I am using: force, multiply, etc.

If you need to have a _*stronger*_ force than someone else's force, then what are your options?

....and will they have the desired effect?

If you still end up with the weaker of the two forces, you have already lost. 
"good-bye".

I'm no fool - - I have rifles and pistols, but I'm not taking on any seven nation army and coming out of it alive. But I believe the strength of my force equal to or even multiplied over an average attack.


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

I'll second the crossbow suggestion if you are physically able to operate it. Be aware that a quality crossbow costs nearly as much as a quality handgun.
Swords, pikes, halberds, knives, and spears are possibilities too. Naked steel does have an strong effect on unarmed thugs.
Just be aware that going up against someone with a firearm pretty much requires another firearm. It's possible to snipe a single opponent with a bow or crossbow. You have to understand that you're much further within his engagement range than he is within yours.
Man traps/ bobby traps are another means to surprise, fix, or incapacitate an opponent.
But if you've read your Sun Tzu, you know the best way to win a fight is to have a foe attack a point away from where you are.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

Get some bear strength pepper spray. It is stronger and has a longer range than the little personal carry types that fit in your pocket. Martial arts are good if you have time to learn them but the range is way too close IMO.

Dogs have advantages and disadvantages. A dog you acquire solely for personal protection can land you in a gigantic lawsuit if you aren't careful. Plus dogs must be fed, housed, exercised and trained. It all takes time and money. Two dogs are much better than one.

Keep a large glass jar (gallon size?) that is filled with oil and marbles near every entrance. If trouble comes break the jars on the floor and stand back. Hopefully that will slow them down a bit so you'll have time to fight or flee. Be prepared to fight for your life if needed. If they are still coming after slipping in the oil and falling on marbles and broken glass they'll really be pi$$ed!

If guns were not an option I'd have the pepper spray, a baseball bat, a sword (or machete) and a knife. The reason I prefer a sword over a machete is because the sword will have a better point for thrusting. If you want some longer range capability get a crossbow.

But face it, if you go up against someone with a gun with anything less than a gun you are most likely going to lose.

Regarding Bud K: You get what you pay for. Read the descriptions carefully. I have stuff from them that is adequate. I have a short Japanese type sword with a full tang handle that only cost about twenty bucks. It isn't the best steel but it will take an edge (won't hold it long) that will slice right through the neck vertebra of a deer with one swipe. (http://www.budk.com/product/Okhotsk-Full-Tang-Ninjato-Sword/159622.uts) The fantasy swords are pretty much junk IME.

If you're a serious swordsman you'll obviously want a higher quality blade. Cold Steel has some nice swords and other blades if you want to shell out that kind of money. Personally, I'd like to take care of business before they ever get that close.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

Just like there isn't a replacement for displacement when you want to go fast, there isn't a substitute for 800+fps projectile launchers in a self defense plan. No other tool can negate size, speed, stamina, or skill in the same way. I'm not going to tell you to buy a firearm, but that is the truth. Martial arts, particularly those focusing on the use of weapons, require significant dedication/practice/sparring to master. The time frame is years, even for a prodigy. 

BudK = cheap junk.


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## hashbrown (Sep 2, 2013)

Lava that's what I would look for, lots and lots of lava! You could sling it out of a catapult, surround yourself with it, make some lava balloons, but the answer you are looking for is lava. No one has lava!


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## Wellrounded (Sep 25, 2011)

Aussies are not allowed to own anything intended as a weapon. Nothing, nada, not a thing. The only thing you are allowed to defend yourself with in a premeditated way is yourself. Martial arts training is all we have. I spent years training, my first hubby was a *&^% master and training was part of life. First time I needed it to defend myself my attacker was a bees whisker better, taller and stronger than me. If you can own a firearm for self defense BUY ONE and learn to use it. 

We can own firearms here for designated purposes and I own everything within the scope of my profession and sporting pursuits that I legally can . If the day ever comes that we are allowed firearms for self defense, I'll be first in line, hubby will be second (only because he's a gentleman LOL).


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## musketjim (Dec 7, 2011)

Kimber makes a nice pepper spray pistol design, only good for 2 shots tho. Tasers are good as long as they are the projectile type, not body contact, you need distance. Otherwise, I like a good axe handle, a little lighter than a baseball bat, easier to handle with one hand. Aluminum baseball bat is good. Good skull bashing to you..:laugh:


"Take care of your neighbor now, you might have to eat him later.:eyebulge:"


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## Moby76065 (Jul 31, 2012)

If you cannot/will not obtain a firearm early detection is even more important. Motion activated lights/alarms will give you time to prepare for engagement with what ever your self defense choice is. This is true weather you have a firearm or club. I respectfully disagree with gallon glass bottles of oil & marbles at entrance/exists. You may have to use those same exists. Although good in theory.

Taking firearms out of the equation means putting your body in it at closer ranges. Engagement zones can be extended with large well trained dogs, but I would have two. This makes it harder to engage the teeth from the aggressor side. While the threat is being K9 engaged you've time to engage with whatever projectile you choose. Well trained dogs are not a liability issue. Large untrained dogs are *DEFINITELY* a liability issue. Remember a large dog = $100 monthly to feed quality food, hours of training and vet bills. The trade off is undying love and a fierce willingness to protect, even to the point of losing it's life to do so. If large dogs are not an option Yorkshire Terriers and other small dogs are excellent watch dogs (watch=alarm) they are low maintenance if kept trimmed or short haired and do not break the bank food wise. They also live much longer putting off the dreaded death day of any dog ownership. It will hurt emotionally and is unavoidable.

No projectile means up close and personal. This is the last place I want an engagement. For me...get inside my 15 foot zone aggressively and its all over. But a .45 affords that safety. Most engagements happen unexpectedly and rapidly. The idea of grabbing a crossbow/sword etc is not likely to work out well. There hard to carry on your hip.

As many have stated here the threat will most likely have a firearm in today's society in a SHTF situation. Or at least a 60%+ chance of having one. My advice is to over come what ever issue is preventing you from obtaining one. Sorry...this is the world we live in.
The next best thing would be dogs and tasers. IMHO


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

kemps said:


> Hey ya'll. I know its been a bit since I've been on. I am trying to figure out the best options for me (as well as the other two) for self defense/protection. I'd like to stay away from guns for multiple reasons so am looking at alternative ideas...


As I recall Reporter interviewing a English Citizen.

"Since guns are illegal what do you use to protect against a home invasion?"

"I have a baseball bat"

"What if the Invader was armed?"

"I have a baseball bat"

During a life threatening encounter the odds of you winning is reduced if you fight fair. Odds of you winning are greatly reduced if you are at a disadvantage too.

IMHO you want to engage your opponent before he gets within his range. The old adage of, Don't take a knife to a knife fight, take a gun.

If because of local laws a firearm is not an option, then I would want the most powerful weapon the law would allow. And I would realize that I'm would be defending myself and family at a disadvantage.

If I didn't want a firearm because I couldn't see myself taking a life, then my option would be to post; This house protected by alarm company xxx. And hope and pray I live in a safe neighborhood. If I couldn't protect my family by taking a life then I doubt I could spray anything in a attacker face either.


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## Kodeman (Jul 25, 2013)

I can't imagine not having a firearm in a SHTF situation. That being said, for close in defense you can't beat a ball-peen hammer. As another poster stated, an ax handle is superior to a bat but I would recommend drilling a 1" hole, 3" to 4" deep in the top and filling it with lead. Melted down 00 buckshot works good. Plug hole with a cork and seal with Gorilla Glue. This weight not only packs more of a punch but swings much faster than just a wooden handle.


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## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

If I was going to go "old school", I'd probably go with a cast iron pan. Ask your grandmother or watch any cartoons from the '50s and '60s and you'll see that a cast-iron pan always incapacitates someone.

Are paintball guns taboo as well or are they a viable alternative. At close range, those paintballs hurt. You can also fire off as many rounds as your finger can touch the trigger (using 2 fingers is really fast). With hoppers holding 100+ shots, you can really hurt intruders. I got hit by one ball at close range about 8 years ago. I still have a scar from it.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Kodeman said:


> ....drill a 1" hole, 3" to 4" deep in the top and fill it with lead. Plug hole with a cork and seal with Gorilla Glue


I have never poured molten lead into a hickory handle, but if you make sure the hole is damp (not wet), keep the lead under 500*F and go slow it might work. What works better than glue is to drill some 3/32" or 1/8" holes sideways through the wood and lead and install steel wire as "shear pins"


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

ZoomZoom said:


> .....watch any cartoons from the '50s and '60s and you'll see that a cast-iron pan always incapacitates someone.


Now that's funny right there! I have learned much from watching cartoons!


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

LincTex said:


> I have never poured molten lead into a hickory handle, but if you make sure the hole is damp (not wet), keep the lead under 500*F and go slow it might work. What works better than glue is to drill some 3/32" or 1/8" holes sideways through the wood and lead and install steel wire as "shear pins"


Would getting the wood damp cause a steam explosion? I dropped a wet wheel weight in the melting pot once and the result was pretty impressive (and a reminder of why I always wear safety glasses).

I'd be more likely to fill the cavity with lead shot mixed into epoxy glue then plug the end with a wood dowel (glued in) and pin the dowel.

Or just use a sword or machete! They're lighter and more effective. (of course in some locations they're illegal. ... But so is breaking and entering!)


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

Every now and then we have a conversation about means of self defense without a firearm. The answer is almost always suck it up and get a gun.

Let me chime in and say this.... the OP (here or in any other threads that are similar) may be asking about the no guns for a very specific reason. Now, I have no idea with kemps, but some conversations I have had elsewhere, with similar themes, focused on the fact that some of us are not able to own guns. The OP in any thread may have a felony conviction in the near or distant past, may have a spouse with one. May have a child with mental illness. Or they may live in a region that has too many hurdles for firearm ownership.

Speaking for myself, I had a concealed carry permit almost from my 21st birthday. Spent a long time with a friend on my hip as well. My opinion is that in the USA, if you have a conviction that is non-violent, there is no reason you cannot exercise your right to use firearms. Finish your sentence, get off of parole or probation and if you did not have a violent crime using a weapon against a person, have at it.

I just wanted to point that out because very few ask why the OP states no guns (not that the OP would always be truthful...) it is assumed that the no guns is a surmountable issue. For some, it is not.


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

One other animal that has also been used for intruder warning is the goose. They're very territorial and were used in Vietnam. The issue is whether your climate is suitable year round.


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## jnrdesertrats (Jul 3, 2010)

So far I think we have all been thinking of going toe to toe to defend yourself, because we can. Since you have stated in other threads you have physical limitations I just had another thought. Assuming you had some advanced warning how about not fighting back. If you have a closet that would allow for a small space concealed by a false wall you could hide. Of course you will most likely lose anything they find, but you could conceivably remain unharmed. It sounds likely you would not be the victor in a confrontation that seems like an alternative. You could even have several hiding places in the house for you and some supplies.


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## crabapple (Jan 1, 2012)

IlliniWarrior said:


> only thing I can say is good luck with it .... there's the old adage "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight" ....


The old adage was used to get a gunman out from cover so someone could shoot him.
LEO's are trained not to draw if the knifeman is within 21 feet.
STILL, a gun is better, than just a knife.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

Wellrounded said:


> Aussies are not allowed to own anything intended as a weapon. Nothing, nada, not a thing. The only thing you are allowed to defend yourself with in a premeditated way is yourself. Martial arts training is all we have. I spent years training, my first hubby was a *&^% master and training was part of life. First time I needed it to defend myself my attacker was a bees whisker better, taller and stronger than me. If you can own a firearm for self defense BUY ONE and learn to use it.
> 
> We can own firearms here for designated purposes and I own everything within the scope of my profession and sporting pursuits that I legally can . If the day ever comes that we are allowed firearms for self defense, I'll be first in line, hubby will be second (only because he's a gentleman LOL).


I have seen 50 pound children make grown men 3-4 times their weight and size beg for mercy with jiu jitsu. Jiu jitsu ain't really my thing, but I do train in Tenth Planet style(no gi) once in a while because there are some very useful techniques. Every martial art has weak points, and most will simply ignore them or aren't even aware of it. An example would be people who train in a particular type of Karate that has a primary focus on matches/tournaments. Training will be focused on _rules_ and _legal_ strikes, which may not allow strikes to the face for example. Ludicrous in my opinion, but I digress. Another example is jiu jitsu....you can only really deal with a single person at a time. While you're dealing with perp #1, his friend can easily walk out of the shadows behind you and stick a knife in your kidney or homerun your head with a pipe.

Dad told me a long time ago that it doesn't matter how big, mean, strong, skilled, etc. you are, there is always some mean tempered bastard out there better than you who will kick your head in for giggles. *Shrug*


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## SwordsandSaddles (Mar 14, 2015)

I like a longbow and melee set up for when I am not packing firearms. Slings are scary, but a bit inconvenient in my AO. And that is a sling, not a slingshot. Totally different weapon.


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## notyermomma (Feb 11, 2014)

The first, last, and best weapon we have is between our ears.

Sharpen your situational awareness skills. Learn to recognize when you're being interviewed. Learn the different forms of violence so you can predict and avoid them.

Best of all, project confidence and practice de-escalation skills.

A lot of it comes down to practicing common sense, like the Three Stupids. Any martial artist will tell you that the best victory is not to engage in a conflict in the first place. There's no 100% guarantee, but if you learn and reinforce these skills on a constant basis you can pull the plug on pretty much any potential situation before it goes bad.


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## camo2460 (Feb 10, 2013)

There have been a lot of good suggestions made from Ball Bats to Long Bows, and since the OP did say that lethal was acceptable, why not try throwing knives. They can be purchased in a variety of lengths and styles, are relatively cheap, and with a minimum amount of practice proficiency can be achieved. Further if one were to purchase three or four knives with a sheath for them all they could be carried and used quickly against multiple attackers, especially if one were to train with a combat mind set, rather that just statically standing in front of a target. Personally I use a set of three "Stinger Throwing Knives", and use the "Fight Fast" method of throwing, which is a combat style of fighting using throwing knives, or just about anything else with a point, including a straightened Paper Clip. Check out www.FightFast.com/library. Hope this helps.


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## bigg777 (Mar 18, 2013)

kemps - If I recall properly, you are dealing with some physical ailments. My recommendation to you for your EDC is a cane, not just some hollow, metal, adjustable deal, a good stout wooden cane. A sound thumping with something akin to a shillelagh will get many folks to leave you alone.


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## notyermomma (Feb 11, 2014)

Ditto. 

I had a friend who was almost completely blind. He had earned a black belt in TKD before losing his vision, so it was a natural for him to disguise a 6' bo staff as his "white cane." For maximum awesomeness he harvested bamboo straight from his own backyard, polished it, and emblazoned it with lots of dragons and Korean script.

Because its stated purpose was as a white cane, technically it wasn't a weapon and he could take it anywhere. Unlike most of his blind friends he never got messed with.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

kemps said:


> Hey ya'll. I know its been a bit since I've been on. I am trying to figure out the best options for me (as well as the other two) for self defense/protection. I'd like to stay away from guns for multiple reasons so am looking at alternative ideas. Either lethal or non-lethal is fine by me as I would only use it in the event of being attacked or a break in situation. It needs to be a more reasonablly priced option and something that would work well for someone with not really any weapons training. I'll obviously get lessons etc for whatever I decide to go with but I don't think I can get the other two on board with it.  I've been looking on BudK but I have never ordered anything from them and am unsure of if they are actually worth ordering or not. Any advice would be more than appreciated. Thanks ya guys-Kemps


Howdy.
P.M me, I do this kind of thing. 
P.S Lethal or non lethal?



bigg777 said:


> kemps - If I recall properly, you are dealing with some physical ailments. My recommendation to you for your EDC is a cane, not just some hollow, metal, adjustable deal, a good stout wooden cane. A sound thumping with something akin to a shillelagh will get many folks to leave you alone.


I on occasion make canes, my "out on the town special is made from a pressure cured ash post hole digger handle topped with a two pound stainless weld cap both glued and bolted in place by a 3" tractor screw. so actually, its not just a cane, its a 40" riot baton with a skull crusher! I've had it in the court house and at public meetings with minimal hassle.Its saved me twice now from aggressive dogs and a strung out homeless type.


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## notyermomma (Feb 11, 2014)

Moby76065 said:


> This makes it harder to engage the teeth from the aggressor side. While the threat is being K9 engaged you've time to engage with whatever projectile you choose. Well trained dogs are not a liability issue. Large untrained dogs are DEFINITELY a liability issue. Remember a large dog = $100 monthly to feed quality food, hours of training and vet bills. The trade off is undying love and a fierce willingness to protect, even to the point of losing it's life to do so. If large dogs are not an option Yorkshire Terriers and other small dogs are excellent watch dogs (watch=alarm) they are low maintenance if kept trimmed or short haired and do not break the bank food wise. They also live much longer putting off the dreaded death day of any dog ownership. It will hurt emotionally and is unavoidable.


Just wanted to add my +1 to this. It's fine to get a dog for protection purposes, but some people don't think in terms of being a steward to the _dog's_ needs. A dog is a pack animal, and has a hard-wired need for love and full inclusion without which his life is meaningless. As such, dog ownership is a lifestyle, not a commodity or a fashion statement. As with a child, you _must_ make yourself available not only for physical needs like food and healthcare, but also for training, bonding, and play.

I've seen a lot of people invest in dogs "for protection" and then simply leave them chained up bored and isolated in the yard. In that scenario, what's the dog's territory? The yard! What interest would he have in protecting a house he's never even entered? Why would he come to the aid of total strangers who do nothing more than throw food at him? That doesn't constitute a pack. _Relationships_ are what create a pack, just like a family. And it's that relationship that will prompt Fido to put his life on the line in a crisis. Without that foundation, you're wasting your time. Worse, you're bringing an innocent animal into a situation where he's a permanent outsider. For a dog's psychological makeup, that's abuse.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

I agree with this. when I had wolves, I HAD to keep it in their head I was leader of the pack!
Having done that, in any altercation they had my back 110% of the time.a fighting "dog" must not
only have family 24-7 but also know their place in it,but once the place is clear, you have a back
up that will rather die for you than retreat. I miss my mutts. 

I recommend a 50-50 breed of timber wolf and Shepard. It's STILL a wolf, just classified as a "working dog".


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

notyermomma said:


> Just wanted to add my +1 to this. It's fine to get a dog for protection purposes, but some people don't think in terms of being a steward to the _dog's_ needs. A dog is a pack animal, and has a hard-wired need for love and full inclusion without which his life is meaningless. As such, dog ownership is a lifestyle, not a commodity or a fashion statement. As with a child, you _must_ make yourself available not only for physical needs like food and healthcare, but also for training, bonding, and play.
> 
> I've seen a lot of people invest in dogs "for protection" and then simply leave them chained up bored and isolated in the yard. In that scenario, what's the dog's territory? The yard! What interest would he have in protecting a house he's never even entered? Why would he come to the aid of total strangers who do nothing more than throw food at him? That doesn't constitute a pack. _Relationships_ are what create a pack, just like a family. And it's that relationship that will prompt Fido to put his life on the line in a crisis. Without that foundation, you're wasting your time. Worse, you're bringing an innocent animal into a situation where he's a permanent outsider. For a dog's psychological makeup, that's abuse.


I grew up with dogs and they have always been treated as more than just pets. Our current pair of dogs are given free range of the house and yard when we are home with the exception of the bedrooms (the cats need a safe zone from the pups and their over active noses.). But at night the bedrooms are open to the dogs and they sleep on the beds with us. I have never had more protective dogs because of this.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

camo2460 said:


> There have been a lot of good suggestions made from Ball Bats to Long Bows, and since the OP did say that lethal was acceptable, why not try throwing knives. They can be purchased in a variety of lengths and styles, are relatively cheap, and with a minimum amount of practice proficiency can be achieved. Further if one were to purchase three or four knives with a sheath for them all they could be carried and used quickly against multiple attackers, especially if one were to train with a combat mind set, rather that just statically standing in front of a target. Personally I use a set of three "Stinger Throwing Knives", and use the "Fight Fast" method of throwing, which is a combat style of fighting using throwing knives, or just about anything else with a point, including a straightened Paper Clip. Check out www.FightFast.com/library. Hope this helps.


I have never understood throwing knives. Why would I potentially arm my opponent? :dunno:


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## fteter (May 23, 2014)

When I think of WROL self-defense, I immediately think of range. Dealing with trouble at a distance is better than dealing with trouble when it's close at hand. So if firearms are not an option, I'd go to my trusty cross-bow.

If we're just talking home defense...especially indoors, in the dark, in your own home or one you know well...a metal softball bat is a great 2nd choice to a firearm. I'd rather have a good shotgun, but I can endorse the bat from personal experience on the swinging end. Wicked weapon in close...use it like a baton on steroids.

I also have two dogs. Both sitting at my feet as I write this. One is a little Westy Jack Russell who came to us earlier this year...really only an ankle-biter, but a great alarm system. The other is a very large German Shepard/Rottweiler/Malamute mix...well-trained and extremely protective when needed. No problem trusting the big boy my life or the lives of my family. So yeah, +1 on the dogs. Treat 'em well, make 'em family members, and they'll do well by you.


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## camo2460 (Feb 10, 2013)

zombieresponder said:


> I have never understood throwing knives. Why would I potentially arm my opponent? :dunno:


Believe me if I were to stick a couple of knives in someone's throat, they're not going to be thinking about using those knives against me, further if I were to stick someone do you think I'm going to wait until the shock wears off? No I'm going to be curb stomping the Sh*t out of them until they stop moving.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

notyermomma said:


> The first, last, and best weapon we have is between our ears.
> 
> Sharpen your situational awareness skills. Learn to recognize when you're being interviewed. Learn the different forms of violence so you can predict and avoid them.
> 
> ...


That and a Remington 870 pump shotgun are my personal favorites for home defense.

Sometimes talk will just delay things. Sometimes it won't even do that.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

camo2460 said:


> There have been a lot of good suggestions made from Ball Bats to Long Bows, and since the OP did say that lethal was acceptable, why not try throwing knives. They can be purchased in a variety of lengths and styles, are relatively cheap, and with a minimum amount of practice proficiency can be achieved. Further if one were to purchase three or four knives with a sheath for them all they could be carried and used quickly against multiple attackers, especially if one were to train with a combat mind set, rather that just statically standing in front of a target. Personally I use a set of three "Stinger Throwing Knives", and use the "Fight Fast" method of throwing, which is a combat style of fighting using throwing knives, or just about anything else with a point, including a straightened Paper Clip. Check out www.FightFast.com/library. Hope this helps.


Any recommendations on which video?


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

camo2460 said:


> Believe me if I were to stick a couple of knives in someone's throat, they're not going to be thinking about using those knives against me, further if I were to stick someone do you think I'm going to wait until the shock wears off? No I'm going to be curb stomping the Sh*t out of them until they stop moving.


Remember the word "potentially"? No matter how good you are, you will make mistakes, probably at the least opportune time.


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## Cabowabo (Nov 6, 2012)

First I would highly recommend a firearm. The ability to hit a target before they get to close is vital for self defense. However with my current profession I deal with people who are forced to have a gun and have some stuff in their past that makes 'em freak out. IF that is you, then I understand why you wouldn't want a firearm.

The old Adage of don't bring a knife to a gun fight, is true and not true. LEO training says at 21 to 25 feet knife wins over gun. If you are serious I would look into martial arts training, Krav Magra etc. AS a way to defend yourself without a firearm. Dogs, Making your home a harder target then your neighbor is a good way of thinking. Also a X-25 Taser, would do wonders as well for a non lethal... I wouldn't recommend Mace because when you spray it, some may/will come back to you. 

Hope this helps


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## Balls004 (Feb 28, 2015)

I'm sorry, but there really is no other viable alternative to a firearm in any kind of life threatening encounter. No martial art or weapon gives you the flexibility and the range of a modern pistol or rifle.

Yes, it is important to have other alternatives available to you, but they typically require much more effort and training to employ _effectively_ than a pistol or revolver.

Nothing else I've used in 40 plus years of combat training even comes close to the fight ending qualities of a firearm. Just as an example, in the mid 80's, in Panama, it was popular for the local youth who idolized Bruce Lee tactics to rob people with their "Kung Fu" antics. In an alley in Panama City, when confronted by a large group of Panamanians, a few Americans simply showed their weapons and it looked like a group of cockroaches scurrying out of a kitchen when the light was turned on.

There are options to a firearm, but it is still the best option by far.


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## camo2460 (Feb 10, 2013)

mosquitomountainman said:


> Any recommendations on which video?


The video that I have is called "Stinger Knife Throwing, Expert Secrets to Throwing a Weapon".


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

camo2460 said:


> The video that I have is called "Stinger Knife Throwing, Expert Secrets to Throwing a Weapon".


Thanks! I'll check it out.


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## readytogo (Apr 6, 2013)

Is a good question but kind of out of time, in today`s modern world nothing beats a firearm for protection or defense and I always emphasizes proper training and practice, Illini Warrior said it best.


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## Sam (Jan 7, 2009)

Guns are what we call state of the art for self defense. Anything less is foolish.

Failure to chose and use the gun is a contra survival behavior trait, one worthy of immediate "natural selection" and certainly a disqualifying factor if you are hanging around me and mine.


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## Gians (Nov 8, 2012)

Sam said:


> Guns are what we call state of the art for self defense. Anything less is foolish.
> 
> Failure to chose and use the gun is a contra survival behavior trait, one worthy of immediate "natural selection" and certainly a disqualifying factor if you are hanging around me and mine.


Keep in mind in some households it's 'foolish' to have a gun around and you'd be contributing to "natural selection" a lot faster.


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## crabapple (Jan 1, 2012)

I do not own a gun, but I know that a gun is the protection for the home.


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## Sam (Jan 7, 2009)

Gians said:


> Keep in mind in some households it's 'foolish' to have a gun around and you'd be contributing to "natural selection" a lot faster.


I submit that such a household is by definition already dysfunctiional and on artificial life support


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## notyermomma (Feb 11, 2014)

Sam, one other person already pointed out that we don't know _why_ the OP chooses not to have a gun. You may feel that it's the only option for you and that's fine. But it makes no sense to judge others, especially when we don't have the full story.

And no, we're not entitled to the full story either. That's the OP's business and their business alone. If you can't say something nice ...


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## jimLE (Feb 25, 2015)

i already have firearms.i also have bought a compound bow in a yard sale...in which i need to get updated,and get whats needed for it.like arrows.i also need to learn how to make my own arrows as well.i also have pocket knives,and fixed blade knives in which at least some are good for protection when it's up close and persanal...1 more thing i plan on going with..my own pepper spray.im already growing my own habenaro peppers for it.and i also have a recipe for pepper spray as well.so it's just a matter of me decideing on what type of hand held and refillable sprayer i'll go with..


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## Sam (Jan 7, 2009)

notyermomma said:


> Sam, one other person already pointed out that we don't know _why_ the OP chooses not to have a gun. You may feel that it's the only option for you and that's fine. But it makes no sense to judge others, especially when we don't have the full story.
> 
> And no, we're not entitled to the full story either. That's the OP's business and their business alone. If you can't say something nice ...


notyermomma,
The reason why "the OP" chooses to not have a gun is irrelevant. It's a choice not a physical or moral limit. Life is about choices. Although no one was "judged" (although we have the right and duty to "judge" every single thing in our daily lives), it's called making decisions, and we must do it several thousand times a day.
We prepare for many reasons, but generally to keep bad things from happening to us. If ones sensitivity to valid discussion inhibits learning and enhanced decision making skills, that too can become a contra-survival behavior.

A dysfunctional family/group is a much greater hazard and impediment to survival than lack of weapons will ever be. It is a valid point of discussion since at least one person in the discussion feels that someone should base their defense around and be limited by the dysfunction.

My point is that correcting the dysfunction, whatever it's nature is MORE IMPORTANT than a choice of weapons.

Lack of effective weapons is a very small part of survival whereas "dysfunction" will effect ALL aspects of survival and rapidly becomes THE LIMITING FACTOR and demands priority of repair/correction.


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## Gians (Nov 8, 2012)

Sam said:


> _" at least one person in the discussion feels that someone should base their defense around and be limited by the dysfunction."_


Just in case it was me you were referring to Sam, yes I do believe households with felons and violent mentally ill people shouldn't have guns around. People think, I'll hide them or lock them up...doesn't always work. Many times there's no possibility of "correcting the dysfunction" as you say. You've got guns, I've got guns, all God's children got guns, but imho some shouldn't. Some people just don't want guns around and that's fine too, free country. I understand your opinion, just wanted to clarify mine.


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## bigg777 (Mar 18, 2013)

Here is a previous thread about a non-lethal alternative, Wasp & Hornet Spray. While I do not recommend it's use, any port in a storm!

http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f26/alternative-pepper-spray-22868/


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Custom nozzle fire extinguishers come to mind, a well placed blast of halon or C O 2 will smarten a perp up pretty quick. 

and an empty fire extinguisher to the head hurts way more than a Glock,


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## readytogo (Apr 6, 2013)

So does the steel tip of a woman's high heel shoe, I have seen what it can do to scalp of a would be rapists .


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## Sam (Jan 7, 2009)

Gians said:


> Just in case it was me you were referring to Sam, yes I do believe households with felons and violent mentally ill people shouldn't have guns around. People think, I'll hide them or lock them up...doesn't always work. Many times there's no possibility of "correcting the dysfunction" as you say. You've got guns, I've got guns, all God's children got guns, but imho some shouldn't. Some people just don't want guns around and that's fine too, free country. I understand your opinion, just wanted to clarify mine.


So how will the dysfunction be dealt with in a survival situation? As I said it's much more important than whether or not you have a gun.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

I have a "Black Jackal" battle mace.If you can't swing it, you can stab.
5 Lbs of "YOU DON'T WANT NONE!"


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Gians said:


> Some people just don't want guns around and that's fine too, free country. I understand your opinion, just wanted to clarify mine.


It's a choice.....

But like any choice, THAT choice (no guns) has the consequence of *"reduced potential to protect your family" *



bigg777 said:


> Here is a previous thread about a non-lethal alternative, Wasp & Hornet Spray. While I do not recommend it's use, any port in a storm!


 Berryman's B-12 in a spray can hurts the eyes and face way more than wasp spray.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

LincTex said:


> It's a choice.....
> 
> But like any choice, THAT choice (no guns) has the consequence of *"reduced potential to protect your family" *
> 
> Berryman's B-12 in a spray can hurts the eyes and face way more than wasp spray.


Add a lighter and I imagine it would make a pretty good flame thrower as well.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Starting fluid's cheaper and you can light them up with 0 effort. >


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## SwordsandSaddles (Mar 14, 2015)

You can also suck flame back into the can and blow your hand off...


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## musketjim (Dec 7, 2011)

Another option would be a length of garden hose filled with sand.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

SwordsandSaddles said:


> You can also suck flame back into the can and blow your hand off...


Urban legend. 
It has NEVER actually happened.



musketjim said:


> Another option would be a length of garden hose filled with sand.


That's about the cheapest mace one could make, but a 1/2 pound of lead shot or BB's would be better, and really just in the last 6" -8" of the hose length.


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

zombieresponder said:


> I have seen 50 pound children make grown men 3-4 times their weight and size beg for mercy with jiu jitsu. Jiu jitsu ain't really my thing, but I do train in Tenth Planet style(no gi) once in a while because there are some very useful techniques. Every martial art has weak points, and most will simply ignore them or aren't even aware of it. An example would be people who train in a particular type of Karate that has a primary focus on matches/tournaments. Training will be focused on _rules_ and _legal_ strikes, which may not allow strikes to the face for example. Ludicrous in my opinion, but I digress. Another example is jiu jitsu....you can only really deal with a single person at a time. While you're dealing with perp #1, his friend can easily walk out of the shadows behind you and stick a knife in your kidney or homerun your head with a pipe.
> 
> Dad told me a long time ago that it doesn't matter how big, mean, strong, skilled, etc. you are, there is always some mean tempered bastard out there better than you who will kick your head in for giggles. *Shrug*


My first martial art instructor thought he was a real bad-*ss. He went down to the local fast food joint late at night dressed in his Gi (karate outfit). As you can imagine, some local studs had to make a comment and the fight began. Short story, he took out the first two, the third gave him about a 30 stitch cut. Distance for defense if paramount. Run if you can, if not, prey you have a better attack plan than they do. :brickwall:


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## jimLE (Feb 25, 2015)

here's something i made for 2-100ft strands of 550 para cord.in which i manged to get both on it just fine..their wraped around a wooden dowel .and it has round wooden peices cut from a 1x6 at each end..i went to show it to my mom.and the first thing that came to mind.this can be used as a weapon.i have a hand gun.but yet.i know there's always a possibilety that i wont always be able to get to it in time.and to me.that means haveing other forms of defense around the house.so to me.this wooden dowel and para cord be a great go to weapon for self defense when in need..


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## Griff (Jan 12, 2013)

Anybody ever heard of a Sling Bow? 
Using a slingshot to launch arrows, usually with some sort of attachment to hold the arrow in place, but you can switch back to marbles and stones pretty easy. Lots of options. 
We use them around the farm sometimes. Probably not the most practical alternative to a firearm for self defense, but I've found them to require less strength and training than a regular bow. 

If you're dead-set on finding something that could be used more directly as a weapon, maybe consider a machete? Be good to get some training, though.


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## AmishHeart (Jun 10, 2016)

I like my solid wood Louisville slugger baseball bat that is under my bed. I got it when I was 8 yrs old.


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## terri9630 (Jun 2, 2016)

If you don't like or want weapons an alarm system and safe room would be a good investment. It won't help you outside the house but you could sleep better at night.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

Griff said:


> Anybody ever heard of a Sling Bow?
> Using a slingshot to launch arrows, usually with some sort of attachment to hold the arrow in place, but you can switch back to marbles and stones pretty easy. Lots of options.
> We use them around the farm sometimes. Probably not the most practical alternative to a firearm for self defense, but I've found them to require less strength and training than a regular bow.
> 
> If you're dead-set on finding something that could be used more directly as a weapon, maybe consider a machete? Be good to get some training, though.


How about a Pocket Shot?


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## readytogo (Apr 6, 2013)

The Chinese develop the gun powder and their history of its used is well known ,they develop many weapons and the technology to used them, during the Vietnam conflict this same primitive weapons killed many of our soldiers 







I can`t tell you how to make them but you get the idea, but in a world of modern weapons I actually don`t see re-inventing the wheel. jimLE picture is a typical example of old weaponry ,a hollow out piece of bamboo wrap with rope or bamboo twine will make a nice mortar .


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

Bug spray with a plastic tube that fits into the nozzle. Aim for the eyes.

Wrist rocket or other slingshot. Use taconite (iron ore) pellets for ammo. They're cheap and they're heavier than rocks.

You could also get a Roman short sword called a gladius on Amazon for about $30. Or buy a machete.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

If you want something other than a firearm the logical thing to do is look at history at the natural progression of arms used in battle. Just like now the military always had state of the art weapons. Pick weapons used just prior to the transition to firearms to find what was the most lethal.
But like always it always come down to a personal choice just like with everything else. Mostly no right or wrong choices- just different choices.


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## Tacitus (Dec 30, 2012)

AmishHeart said:


> I like my solid wood Louisville slugger baseball bat that is under my bed. I got it when I was 8 yrs old.


I bought a bunch of used kids aluminum bats at the local Goodwill store.

My theory is that they are slightly shorter to allow swinging in tight quarters, as in, inside my house. No one would think twice about a bat in a closet or a corner. I placed them in closets and other random, inconspicuous places around the house. Maybe I should go looking for them now so that I can remember where they all are....

I just hope if I ever have to use a bat in anger, I don't run into Jack Reacher (warning: video is violent)...


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## Griff (Jan 12, 2013)

TheLazyL said:


> How about a Pocket Shot?
> 
> Those look real good. Probably pick one up. I can see several uses, particularly in a GHB for those who are unable to carry a firearm for some reason. Might have to look into takedown arrows.
> 
> Found something else interesting: The Pocket Sling Bow by Tigermano. Betcha a person could make a whole bunch of them with what you have laying around the garage.


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## Griff (Jan 12, 2013)

We made some more hardware store weapons. Been reading SM Stirling's Emberverse series again, so they're kinda present-medieval? (Family and I'd be Mackenzies, prolly)

Here's a couple of stabbing "swords" from Mosin-Nagant bayonets, lag bolts, washers, and garden tool handles, and some trailer-hitch pipe maces. One even has a rubber hose handle. We took them down to a junk yard and got nasty. (One thing - wear welders' gloves) Cleaned up and a little paint, now they're good as new. Simple, brutal, inexpensive, and effective. 

Of course there's duct tape; but...y'know. Gotta have it, right? 

Hope you enjoy.


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