# Conditions for Charging Deep Cycle



## bigcedar (Oct 23, 2012)

Hello All,

First off thanks in advance for any suggestions. 

I purchased a deep cycle marine battery and all I want to do right now is charge it up with a marine battery charger. I understand that gasses can be released when charging up this battery so a well ventilated place is necessary. 

Here is my problem.. is it safe for me to charge it anywhere in my house? I can't really open a window for ventilation because it has been on average about 10-20 degrees outside.  I do have a basement but even that I wasn't sure if gasses would build up. My other option is in the garage outside but then again its 10-20 degrees out and the garage isn't insulated so its still below freezing in the garage. Will the coldness interfere at all with the charging? I thought it wasn't good to keep batteries in such extreme cold. Please correct me if I am wrong

I know its simple process but I just want to make sure I do it the safest way now and every time here on after.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.. thanks again.

Cedar


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

Charging a single deep cycle battery isn't going to fill your home with hydrogen. You'd have to get it to about 4% for the mixture to be flammable. Just make sure you have moving air to distribute what hydrogen is produced and prevent it from collecting in spots and you'll be ok.

Also, hydrogen is released when charging *or* discharging. Just something to keep in mind.


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## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

Review the specs on the battery and the charger. Don't go over a 1% ratio of charging amps to the CCA.

E.g. If the battery's CCA (cold cranking amps) is 650, don't use a charger that's over 1% of that which is 6.5 amps.

A .5 amp trickle charger is the way to go, if you have the time to wait as it may take a day to charge. I like the Battery Tender brand.


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## bigcedar (Oct 23, 2012)

Thank you both so much. That is what I needed to know.

Cedar


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## PotPie (Jan 23, 2013)

ZoomZoom's right slow is the way to go.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

ZoomZoom said:


> A .5 amp trickle charger is the way to go, .


:thumbraise:

Do you have any solar panels?


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## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

Yea, I have a small one. Prefer the trickle charger when the electric is on.

BTW, Amazon has them on sale right now for $23.91
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CITK8S/ref=pe_256570_28000810_email_1p_0_ti


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

ZoomZoom said:


> BTW, Amazon has them on sale right now for $23.91


I have a coupon for one that looks the same from Harbor Freight for $4.99


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## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

LincTex said:


> I have a coupon for one that looks the same from Harbor Freight for $4.99


I haven't purchased the one from HF but have bought some of the < $10 versions. They all died within 6 months. The brand that I linked to on Amazon last a long time _as I have yet to own or hear of one that quit_. I think the 90-day (HF version) warranty vs. the 5-year (the one I linked to on Amazon) also speaks loudly as to the quality.


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## bigcedar (Oct 23, 2012)

I will have to check into the trickle charger.

I also have some solar panels but I went a bit different route. I bought four of the Goal Zero Nomad 13.5 panels. Total of 54 watts only. I went this route on purpose for the simple fact that each one is foldable, has a usb port, and comes with a 12 volt socket. If something happens where power goes out I can share them with neighbors or friends so they can charge little electronics and I wouldn't have to dismantle panels. I do have a 7 amp charge controller for use on the marine battery. I also purchased a 1200 watt generator for the cloudy days to charge up my batteries.. plural in the future. I'm still trying to learn as much as I can. Also I heard/read that trickle chargers aren't always the best to use because they never really charge your battery fully. Is this true?

Thanks again for the help and suggestions.. damn I love this website. So much interesting stuff to learn and read.

Cedar


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

bigcedar said:


> Also I heard/read that trickle chargers aren't always the best to use because they never really charge your battery fully. Is this true?


I have found you have to be VERY careful to not leave them on for too long, because they will OVERCHARGE your battery!


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## forluvofsmoke (Jan 27, 2012)

If it's a flooded lead acid battery you can provide bulk charging at higher rates of 20% the CCA or aHr ratings, then float charge at lower rates based on battery terminal voltage (smart chargers do this automatically). If the battery is in a discharged state for long periods, it can cause stratification of the solution and sulfate will build-up on the lead plates. Once this happens, you need a charger with desulfation mode or a dedicated battery desulfator to reverse the condition, else the battery will suffer a very short life.


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## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

LincTex said:


> I have found you have to be VERY careful to not leave them on for too long, because they will OVERCHARGE your battery!


Some (like the one I linked to) stop charging when it recognizes the charge is complete. Others don't.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Yes the old trickle chargers never really shut off, the new "smart" chargers are designed to, however I have seen a lot of people have trouble with even expensive "smart" chargers messing up batteries. I am not saying not to use them, I do in a couple instances, just to be aware this can happen. There is no reason, that I know, that a solar charge controller should perform any better but I have yet to see them damage a battery however the vast majority of my experience is with only one brand (Morningstar).


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

Don't buy a trickle charger except to maintain batteries on equipment that is rarely used(like a mower over the winter). A trickle charger is not capable of bringing a deeply discharged battery back to fully charged, so it's useless if you've had to draw much power from the battery as you would during a prolonged power outage. While you could provide a bulk charge from your vehicle's alternator, that is hard on the alternator and it may cause it to fail.

Buy a smart charger that will actually charge the battery from a deeply discharged state, and then apply a float charge as needed. Shumacher makes several of these chargers, and they're available at walmart and sams. Here's an example. http://www.walmart.com/ip/Schumacher-XC103-100-30-12-2-Amp-Battery-Charger/15140198


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## bigcedar (Oct 23, 2012)

Awesome! Thank you!


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Just don't ever buy the Black and Decker charger, what a P.O.S.!


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## bigcedar (Oct 23, 2012)

*Charger/Maintainer*

This is the one I ended up getting today. The Noco Genius G3500. It seemed to fit everything I would need. Does anybody know any pros or cons with this one or did I get a piece of junk? Here is a link for it on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/NOCO-G3500-Au...F8&qid=1360093834&sr=8-1&keywords=noco+genius

Unfortunately they didn't have the Schumacher ones at the stores I went to.

Thanks again for all the help.

Cedar


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

bigcedar said:


> The Noco Genius G3500.


Well, it sure looks pretty damn cool! Good reviews on Amazon. There is still a lot to be said for simple, though. There's a lot that can go wrong in the circuitry of "smart chargers".


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

Go to www.solar1234.com and www.battery1234.com At the first link, scroll down, find the "how to power your house from your car" podcast, and listen to it. Then jump over to second site and listen to both of the battery bank podcasts.

As far as the Schumacher chargers go, you can order them online at walmart.com and have them shipped to your local store. Alternatively, they are available on amazon. If you scroll to the bottom at the second site, there are links to them there.

More links: http://www.batterystuff.com/kb/articles/charging-articles/how-do-i-pick-a-battery-charger.html

http://www.batterystuff.com/kb/tools/peukert-s-law-a-nerds-attempt-to-explain-battery-capacity.html

Scroll down to number 4 on this page:
http://www.batterystuff.com/kb/articles/battery-articles/battery-basics.html


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

zombieresponder said:


> A trickle charger is not capable of bringing a deeply discharged battery back to fully charged,


I'll bet you could (if the battery wasn't damaged), but it would take quite a while.

Regardless, that isn't what it was designed to do!


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## bigcedar (Oct 23, 2012)

zombieresponder said:


> Go to www.solar1234.com and www.battery1234.com At the first link, scroll down, find the "how to power your house from your car" podcast, and listen to it. Then jump over to second site and listen to both of the battery bank podcasts.
> 
> As far as the Schumacher chargers go, you can order them online at walmart.com and have them shipped to your local store. Alternatively, they are available on amazon. If you scroll to the bottom at the second site, there are links to them there.
> 
> ...


I have listened to Steves podcasts but unfortunately if you don't do it Steves way you are considered stupid. I chatted with him about the charger I got and he made me feel like a complete idiot. I understand it may not be the best charger but with hundreds and hundreds of good reviews on Amazon I find it hard to believe the one I got is crap. According to Steve it is because its not a Schumacher charger like he suggests. Im not charging 5 or 10 batteries. For now its only one single marine battery and what I got works great for it.

Cedar


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Yeah, I wouldn't worry too much about people who tell you they know the only "Right" way to do something. What I would do in your situation is just see how the charger works, by that I mean use a multimeter. I have used VERY expensive charging equipment, etc but it is always best to double check with a meter, it doesn't take long and you can't really go wrong that way.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

LincTex said:


> I'll bet you could (if the battery wasn't damaged), but it would take quite a while.
> 
> Regardless, that isn't what it was designed to do!


It would take days, literally, to completely charge a depleted 12v auto or marine battery with a 1-3 amp trickle charger. The biggest problem though is that you have to put more energy into the battery than it can actually hold in order to completely charge it. Most of that extra energy, with conventional chargers anyway, is lost due to heat.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Yep, it takes awhile, typical auto battery at 50 amp hours so, just factor in efficiency of the charging 50% being the worst and the number of amps and you get a pretty good idea. 2 amp charger might take 2 days. Good deep cycles are usually 100 amp hours or more.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

bigcedar said:


> I have listened to Steves podcasts but unfortunately if you don't do it Steves way you are considered stupid. I chatted with him about the charger I got and he made me feel like a complete idiot. I understand it may not be the best charger but with hundreds and hundreds of good reviews on Amazon I find it hard to believe the one I got is crap. According to Steve it is because its not a Schumacher charger like he suggests. Im not charging 5 or 10 batteries. For now its only one single marine battery and what I got works great for it.
> 
> Cedar


I bought the battery bank video, which is actually more of a slideshow than a video. Mr. Harris may be well educated, but he apparently doesn't know much about how to make an electrical installation look remotely professional or circuit protection. The only circuit protection used in the automotive battery bank was the circuit breaker, and I'm assuming the inverter had a fuse built in. The batteries were boxed in, yet nothing was used to hold them down. Most of the connections had either inadequate or no protection at all.  There were no fuses or circuit breakers in the home battery bank, and a lack of space to add more clamps to the battery terminals was solved by clamping onto other clamps. Good plans, questionable execution. 

The main issue with _only_ having a trickle charger is that if you have to deplete the battery in an emergency, you have no good way of quickly recharging it. As I said earlier, you can use your vehicle and jumper cables, but it's hard on the alternator and may cause it to fail. When you do have power again it will take at least a couple of days, or more, to bring that battery back to full charge. I've been doing a lot of my own research on this for the last couple of weeks, and I have yet to find anything that recommends use of a trickle charger for anything other than maintaining equipment batteries in the off season, and even those are sparse. A lot of what I'm finding recommends 10-20% of the 20 hour C rate(links later), with the lower figure being preferable for longer battery life. I also see a lot of info saying that you really don't want to go below 80% state of charge for the longest battery life.

Regarding the charger you bought, I just did a bit more research. From their website, it will take that model 21 hours to fully charge a 120AH battery from *50%* depth of discharge. It is a smart charger and shouldn't damage the battery, unlike the dumb ones which output a compromise voltage. The dumb ones are also incapable of fully charging a battery. A 12 volt battery needs around 14.4 volts(it actually varies by battery type) input to reach full charge, and the dumb chargers are around 13.8v. That model of charger also pulses, which should desulfate the battery plates.

Getting more to the point, unless you are very careful with what you use the battery for and calculate it out in advance, it's probably going to go dead much sooner than you expect, and it will take a day or more to fully recharge it. You'll also lose some power to the inverter as well.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/WestAdvisorView?langId=-1&storeId=11151&page=Battery-Charging

http://www.emarineinc.com/pages/Batteries-101.html

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/blog/post/2012/01/how-do-you-calculate-battery-capacity-in-amp-hours-ah-at-different-c-rates

Also, from what I have found, different types of batteries may need different types of chargers, or charge rates. Meaning that marine "deep cycle" batteries(which are usually a hybrid of a starting battery and a true deep cycle) need to be charged differently than golf cart batteries.


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## bigcedar (Oct 23, 2012)

*Thank You*

Thank you all,

Just wanted to give another big thanks to you all. Sometimes it is hard for a new person to ask simple questions. Some people are so much more experienced that easy questions are frowned upon to them. I thank you all on here for taking the time to respond and help me out the best way you can. Your comments are very much appreciated by a new person like me.

Cedar


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

zombieresponder said:


> You can use your vehicle and jumper cables, but it's hard on the alternator and may cause it to fail.


I have never had an alternator fail when doing this. The draw really isn't excessive...

However, I could see it happening (possibly?) if you had to jump the vehicle in the first place to get it running, and its battery was not yet fully charged before adding jumper cables to charge another deeply discharged battery.

Having said that, I have two 850CCA batteries in my diesel truck, and I have run them pretty low when powering an inverter and 12 volt lights at a remote construction site. I had *just enough* amps left to get the engine started (barely) and then let the alternator charge both batteries at the same time. It handled the load just fine, so there shouldn't be a lot of danger doing this. Some folks charge the battery bank in their travel trailer off of the truck as well.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

The charge system that's in the inverter/charger in our motorhome has 100 amp total output. It charges in three stages, bulk, absorb and float, it also has a manual equalize which charges the batteries at a much higher voltage so as to clean the sufate build up from the plates. Equalizing is not something that can be done too often because if the batteries are old plate insulators can break down and plates can warp. I've used it a couple of times as the original batteries were getting weak, it probably gave them one more year of use. The float stage senses the batteries need to maintain proper voltage especially during winter month when a low charge could lead to freezing damage of cells. I also have a 15 watt solar float charger on the roof of the motorhome shed which feeds through the solar controller in the motorhome and keeps the house batteries and the engine battery topped.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

LincTex said:


> I have never had an alternator fail when doing this. The draw really isn't excessive...
> 
> However, I could see it happening (possibly?) if you had to jump the vehicle in the first place to get it running, and its battery was not yet fully charged before adding jumper cables to charge another deeply discharged battery.
> 
> Having said that, I have two 850CCA batteries in my diesel truck, and I have run them pretty low when powering an inverter and 12 volt lights at a remote construction site. I had *just enough* amps left to get the engine started (barely) and then let the alternator charge both batteries at the same time. It handled the load just fine, so there shouldn't be a lot of danger doing this. Some folks charge the battery bank in their travel trailer off of the truck as well.


I've had a couple of alternators quit when recharging just the vehicle's battery after I had to jump it off. They may have been on their last legs anyway, but that killed them. In any case, when the battery is dead, the alt is going to put out every bit of power it can at that rpm. They're not intended to run at high load for a long period, which is exactly what will happen with a dead battery. A charged battery in the vehicle will help buffer the energy drain, but there is still a huge load presented to the alternator as the batteries try to equalize. I don't remember the exact numbers, but a fully discharged 120AH battery will require more like 160AH to reach the fully charged state. Most of the extra energy is lost to heat, but some of it is from other inefficiencies.

My Jeep is wired with a 7 circuit connector for a trailer. One of those circuits is a 20 amp line intended for topping off a breakaway brake system battery and/or topping off camper batteries. IIRC, it states in the manual not to charge dead batteries with it.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

Viking said:


> The charge system that's in the inverter/charger in our motorhome has 100 amp total output. It charges in three stages, bulk, absorb and float, it also has a manual equalize which charges the batteries at a much higher voltage so as to clean the sufate build up from the plates. Equalizing is not something that can be done too often because if the batteries are old plate insulators can break down and plates can warp. I've used it a couple of times as the original batteries were getting weak, it probably gave them one more year of use. The float stage senses the batteries need to maintain proper voltage especially during winter month when a low charge could lead to freezing damage of cells. I also have a 15 watt solar float charger on the roof of the motorhome shed which feeds through the solar controller in the motorhome and keeps the house batteries and the engine battery topped.


I'm seriously considering using one of those, or one intended for marine use, instead of a regular off the shelf charger. I don't think the regular chargers are really intended to be left running 24/7/365. What brand is the one in your RV?


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Years ago (before solar was affordable) it was standard practice for us to hot swap dead batteries into the truck, off of fencers weekly along with other things. One of the vehicles we did this hundreds of times with still has the same alternator (20 years since we started with it). Do I recommend this? OF COURSE NOT, but it should not cause your alternator to fail.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

zombieresponder said:


> I'm seriously considering using one of those, or one intended for marine use, instead of a regular off the shelf charger. I don't think the regular chargers are really intended to be left running 24/7/365. What brand is the one in your RV?


Ours is a Xantrex RS 2000, it's since been replaced by a new model called Freedom SW 2000 which seems to be basically the same. If you go to www.donrowe.com you'll find a wide variety of inverter/chargers to chose from. The main reason we got the one we did was because we wanted pure sine wave for clean operation of electronic appliances.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

cowboyhermit said:


> Years ago, it was standard practice for us to hot swap dead batteries into the truck, off of fencers weekly along with other things.


We used to do this all the time on our farm as well. The vehicles were older carbureted without any ECU... supposedly, you can fry an ECU doing this, but I have never tried it on a newer vehicle. I have seen people to this day still check to see if an alternator is "working" by pulling a battery cable off while running!

Zombie, I am sorry you hurt a few alternators from excessive charging draw. I will agree; they were probably on their very last legs anyway.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

LinkTex, I have done it with ecu vehicles, for instance one time was a long way to home and we had two vehicles (both automatics just to make things difficult), the alternator died in one. Instead of having to travel hundreds of miles and backtrack with a new alternator we swapped batteries (could have used booster cables to charge one vehicle from the other as well), the one with bad alternator we turned off but the operational one we kept running to insure we were not stranded. Alternator is still performing excellently 5-10 years later, no measurable computer damage.
Again, not something I recommend, just saying the damage isn't always going to happen or at least damage that is significant.


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## forluvofsmoke (Jan 27, 2012)

LincTex said:


> *I have seen people to this day still check to see if an alternator is "working" by pulling a battery cable off while running!*


That is risky...

The best way I've found to check alternator function if there is no volt/amp gauge in the vehicle and you don't have an analog or dmm handy is to lay a flat blade screwdriver against the back-end bearing housing (perpendicular to the shaft...stay clear of moving parts and hot turbos or manifolds, etc). I use a screwdriver because the handle acts as an electrical insulator...alternators can generate internal voltages well above 100 AC, so I don't roll the dice with an insulated tool and a proper hand-hold. Moving on, if the screwdriver pulls towards the alternator or there is a noticeable resistance to pull it away, you are experiencing the effects of the electromagnetic field. With a really strong field, you can pretty much be assured that the alternator is ramped-up and pushing a good amount of current. If it's a weak field, it could be from the field windings only, and low or no current being generated which may indicate faulty stator windings or other issues (it may be something as simple as a loose/corroded cable/wire terminal). If the battery is charged and there is just a light load on the electrical system (just ignition system with a carb engine, no electronics), this would be pretty normal. When in doubt, add a load to the system (turn on lights/heater fan) and see if the magnetic field increases or not.

Oh, one tip for a quick down and dirty, gotta get moving, can't fix it right now, with a dead alternator: many will wear-out the brushes before the bearings are gone, especially if they are in a vehicle with a lot of electrical load. If the alternator has not locked-up, but quit charging, just tap on the back end with a small hammer or other (insulated) tool to jar the brushes loose in the pocket so they can make contact with the slip rings again. This may buy you a couple extra days or more when the chips are down (been there, done that).


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Moral of the story "Multimeters are our friends" 
Seriously, I carry one all the time these days.
Most everything from solenoids to power supplies should get a whack or two when they start messing around, sometimes it just doesn't work tho


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

forluvofsmoke said:


> That is risky...


That is why* *I* *don't do it... but I have seen a lot of folks do a LOT of really ghetto work on their cars. Lamp cord is their friend.....


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## forluvofsmoke (Jan 27, 2012)

LincTex said:


> That is why* *I* *don't do it... but I have seen a lot of folks do a LOT of really ghetto work on their cars. Lamp cord is their friend.....


Ah, well, if the inevitable happens, think of it as the gene pool at work. Then, they won't need any lamp cord...


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