# On the Making Of Knives



## Smithy (Oct 15, 2008)

Howdy. It's been a long time since I've posted here, and find myself in a moment of re-dedication to my craft. I went back and read this particular sub-forum in some length, and will try to read some more, but one thing that struck me was an abundance of "first knives" or "makeshift knives". I'm not about to suggest there's anything wrong with any of that, and in my opinion, there's some real talent waiting to come out in some of these efforts.

I've been in this business for about 15 years now, I think, and I've learned a few lessons over the years, and thought it might be helpful to people starting out to hear a few thoughts about what's worked for me. I'm not suggesting anyone is wrong, or has to do it my way, but these are lessons I've paid for in hours, in blood, and in real money lost trying to do some things the hard way first out of one romantic notion or another. Please take what I'm about to say as it's meant, as helpful notions you can take or leave... won't affect me at all if you think I'm full of it.

Once upon a time, a knifemaker named Tai Goo was my hero and mentor as I first began this path. Time proved him to be a little too eccentric for my tastes, but the man has awesome craft skills, and certainly understood what it took to be a successful knifemaker. The first element of what he called the 10 Essentials of Knifemaking, was "blade design". This was huge for me, as I was one of those Neo-Tribal smiths who used "rustic" and "the steel wanted to shape this way" as excuses for poor craftsmanship. Having a clear picture in your head, and being able to forge or grind to that picture, is an essential skill for any craftsman, be it in iron, wood, pottery... you name it. One of the biggests tests is, can you make the same thing again, same as the first, by hand. Learning how to draw a rough sketch on the anvil, or have a photo of a knife shape I wanted to copy nearby the forge, was essential to elevating my craft to where it is today.

The next point on Tai's list, which is still posted in my shop, was "Steel Selection". I say this, because I see a lot of new knifemakers forging from scrap material: old files, truck springs, etc., where the chemistry and condition of the steel are too often unknowns. There are good guides that let you guess with some confidence, but the history of the piece is always a mystery, as is the exact alloy. The problem with this is two-fold: springs, especially used ones, often have cracks and structural failures waiting to happen that may only reveal themselves after a hardening cycle, after much work is done, time that's now wasted on material of inferior quality. The second problem comes when it's time to heat-treat, which is the most essential process of being a knifemaker. It is the moment a blade is born, and every bit of work leading up to that point is meaningless if the heat treat is not done within reasonable tolerance. I'm not talking computer-controlled salt pots and electronic kilns... a backyard bladesmith can do this with a well-calibrated Mark-I Eyeball... but having a steel of known chemistry, and a well understood heat treat guide, is essential, especially to new makers who have enough other things to worry about. Bottom line, save a bunch of time which has value, and spring a few bucks on quality, known steel. There are a couple suppliers I could recommend, but my personal choice is Aldo Bruno, the New Jersey Steel Baron. His prices are fair, his reputation solid, and his dedication to helping the individual craftsman unparalleled by most in the business.

Let me say it again - Heat Treatment is the essential quality of a knifemaker. If you don't understand it, go learn about it. Know the critical temperatures of your steel. Learn how to watch the decalescence in a dark corner of your shop, so you know when carbon is moving out of solution. Know which steels benefit from longer soak times at temperature, which can benefit from multiple quenches (and which suffer from them), learn about normalizing and grain refinement, learn about proper tempering and at what heats to do it at, and learn to test a few blades or blade cross-sections to destruction to know beyond doubt that your process for heat treatment is solid. It doesn't matter what else you do, if you screw this part up. It can make or break a reputation, let alone a knife.

Probably the most important part of being a knifemaker, for me at least, is understanding why we do it. I can get a cutting edge at the dollar store or gas station. I don't need a custom, hand-made blade to open cardboard boxes, skin deer, or process firewood. We do this because of a love of the craft of it, and if you're selling, you're not selling a knife, but an artifact of that old and venerable tradition of hand-made tools. You're selling hard-earned skills and talent in putting together a fine instrument with your own two hands. Don't ever sell yourself short there, no matter what the economy, or how much you want a friend to have a knife. Give it away if you have to, but put a real and worthwhile value on the piece so your friend can brag about it later.

I personally have a love and passion for the work of the ancients. Making exceptionally well-balanced and precise tools of cutting and killing, using hand-made hand-tools by firelight hundreds and thousands of years ago, boggles my mind. I have the advantage of modern tools, hot fire, and a scientific vocabulary for what's going on in the metal, but my craftsmanship has yet to equal some of the ancients, who were called barbarians by civilized cultures. No doubt, they knew what they were doing, using their own understanding of the materials, how to work them, and with exquisite and intimate knowledge of how they were to be used.

I hope some of my passion rubs off on newer smiths here, and I'll try to get a little more active and share some of my recent work. The better pieces can be found on my website, tidewaterforge.com. I'm still re-working it after letting it languish for far too long, but like I said, I'm re-dedicating myself to it, so talking about how and why I do it here helps. Thanks for listening, and please ask questions if you have them.

- Christopher Price


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

I always found Tai Goo's blades interesting.is it true he wouldn't sell a blade if he thought it would be used in combat?
Just asking.

I make my stuff out of recycled steel, BUT I studied a bit of metallurgy.I find that machine made blades have no soul,but then again,I'm bad to buy a second hander and modify the hell out of it too.


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## Smithy (Oct 15, 2008)

I will always be grateful to Tai for inspiring me to improve my craft, and to even get into it at the beginning. One critique I have of him, based soley on forum conversations, is that he sold an awful lot of sizzle with the steak. Such a claim may be true, I don't know enough about him personally to know that, but there were many angles to his marketing. I cannot recall much in the way of his product being in the "fighting style" of knives. I don't think too many knifemakers make weapons they hope get used on another human being, though, but personally I'd have no qualms if one of my pieces came in handy in a war zone, where one of our boys needed it to get out of a tough spot. I just don't revel in it, nor make a big deal of avoiding it... for me, it's about making a proper tool, with dependable qualities, which will serve the owner however they see fit to use it.

My only criticism of recycled steel as a choice for blades is what I said before - the unknown chemistry, which can be mitigated with sufficient destructive testing and experimentation, performed for each batch - and the potential for pre-existing flaws in used spring steel, which often don't reveal themselves until it's too late, and for which there is no cure. For my reputation, I'd rather stick to something known, understood, and proven. Saves me time and money and effort defending myself should a blade ever break because of a poor steel choice. If you're making it work for you, then more power to you man. 

Hammer on.
- Chris


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

I have simple rules about my blades:
I make each one like my life depends on it.
if it ever breaks, I replace it, but I want to know how you broke it.
NOTHING I make is going to cost over 100$.

It's worked pretty good for 30 years, I've only replaced ONE blade and that was because it was used as a crowbar in an emergency and the tip bent until it snapped.you'd probably cringe at how I quench my blades.LOL I'm a hillbilly,I do things the hillbilly way.I don't own a belt grinder,I use an angle grinder and automotive buffer.LOL


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## PipLogan (Apr 25, 2011)

You make and sell your own knifes Magnus ?


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Used to.I'm pretty much retired now because of my health, I still will if its something simple like a Pukko or a skinner.everything is stock removal these days. the only action my forge has got in the past decade is heat treating or making a point.

ANOTHER reason my stuff is under 100$
I don't make art either,I make tools to use, abuse, and pitch in the junk[50 years after your kid inherits it! ]
I'm no where near the class the O.P is in,I'm a hillbilly with a grinder, that's it.


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## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

I don't care for used material in tools of any sort, but I would use it in a pinch. Springs in particular can have fatigue cracks that don't show. Most of the leaf springs around are some variety of chrome-vanadium alloy that is great for springs, but don't hold an edge as well as something with a little more chrome and carbon in it.

I cannot understand the fascination some people have with Damascus steel in antique edged weapons. It can't be anything but ignorance of the metallurgy involved. The invention of crucible steel was a mega step forward and took over the market in very short order due to superiority. Top quality flat-ground tool steels are readily available today--O1, A2, D2, etc., and are not all that expensive. Call Enco and they can have it on the brown truck tomorrow. Buy the thickness you want. No forging required. It comes in the annealed condition and can be easily machined to shape.

I would much rather have a blade made of A2 hardened and drawn to about C54-56 than any Damascus steel ever made. No silicon seams polluting the metallurgy, and enough chrome to keep it clean with very little trouble. I have some that has been laying around the shop for 20+ years and is still clean with no pitting. Tough as all get-out, and sharpens a LOT easier than D2/D3, too, while holding an edge acceptably well. Air hardening means virtually no warpage in heat treat, and using stainless foil to wrap it for hardening, no decarb, either. A light brush in the bead blaster and it is clean as a pin. No oil fumes in the shop, and no oil fires. 

Most amateur heat treating is not the best. If you are going to do it, do your research and learn, then make a suitable setup to do a good job and it will pay you forever. Or pay someone in the business to do the heat treating with a load of their stuff.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

About making blades out of used material, what you guys think about making a hunting/combat type knife out of a planer blade (stainless steel, don't know more than that) from a lumber mill?


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

machinist said:


> I don't care for used material in tools of any sort, but I would use it in a pinch. Springs in particular can have fatigue cracks that don't show. Most of the leaf springs around are some variety of chrome-vanadium alloy that is great for springs, but don't hold an edge as well as something with a little more chrome and carbon in it.
> 
> I cannot understand the fascination some people have with Damascus steel in antique edged weapons. It can't be anything but ignorance of the metallurgy involved. The invention of crucible steel was a mega step forward and took over the market in very short order due to superiority. Top quality flat-ground tool steels are readily available today--O1, A2, D2, etc., and are not all that expensive. Call Enco and they can have it on the brown truck tomorrow. Buy the thickness you want. No forging required. It comes in the annealed condition and can be easily machined to shape.
> 
> ...


Did you find D2 blades to be more prone to chipping or breaking? I have no experience with it as a knife, but I saw a ton of chipped/broken D2 tooling when I worked in a toolroom.


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## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

D2 is normally taken to higher hardness than some other steels, and it tends to work harden when used for forging, rolling and stamping dies because of the high chromium content. Thus, it tends to chip instead of dull or deform. 

It should work just fine for a durable blade, but keep the hardness down to the tougher RC 52-56 range. Commonly D2 is used at RC 58-60 for dies, which is a testament to its' toughness at such a high hardness. 

If you're gonna use it for a crowbar or to hammer on, use S7 and take it about RC 48-52. That works for rock drills. 

No steel is perfect for all applications. Each alloy has its' preferred hardness range for best use of its' properties. A2 is pretty versatile, being used for every sort of die, some of them cutting applications, but the D series is better for trim steels with higher hardness and edge holding. 

A2 suits me for a decent knife at RC 54, about the hardness of most commercial pocket knives. 

_____________

Planer blades are not stainless steel, but a fairly high chrome-vanadium-carbon steel. It LOOKS like stainless, but no nickel content that I am aware of. It should make a very good knife blade, if anything a bit short on toughness, would have excellent edge holding ability. DON'T overheat it if you are just grinding to shape, or you'll have to re-heat treat it and you don't have the exact data to do that! Otherwise, go for it!


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

Kewl beans! Thanks for the tip bud!


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## OleSarge (Oct 30, 2012)

Ok I have a question. I have read on several occasion about people taking an old ball peen hammer and turning them into a hawk. Other than your aversion to used materials are there any merits to this? Or just buy a premade head.


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## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

The hammer should make a fine tomahawk. Starting with the hammer has the eye already formed, but it is still a lot of work to forge the blade. Your choice. 

I doubt if a used hammer would be any problem, since hammers don't see any significant flexing in use. I think the biggest consideration would be assuring it is heated all the way through before you begin forging. It needs to soak in the heat for quite a while to get hot to the core. Forging too cold will crack it for sure.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

machinist said:


> D2 is normally taken to higher hardness than some other steels, and it tends to work harden when used for forging, rolling and stamping dies because of the high chromium content. Thus, it tends to chip instead of dull or deform.
> 
> It should work just fine for a durable blade, but keep the hardness down to the tougher RC 52-56 range. Commonly D2 is used at RC 58-60 for dies, which is a testament to its' toughness at such a high hardness.
> 
> ...


You just confirmed every opinion I've formulated on it's use for knife blades.


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## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

Steels with chromium and nickel content are prone to work hardening. Even mild (low carbon content) stainless is very bad about it. Try a small piece of 303 or 304 stainless (18-8) by drilling a small hole in it at LOW RPM, about half or less what would be right for mild steel.

The stainless will drill nicely if the drill is sharp and lubricated to keep the temperature down, and a modest feed rate is used. It takes time, so most people get impatient and force-fed the cutting tool. Big mistake. Increased RPM or feed rate will produce more heat, which quickly work hardens the metal ahead of the cutting. Result is a burnt drill bit, and a useless piece of steel. Even a sharp carbide drill has trouble in work hardened stainless.

That means an alloy with high chromium and/or nickel content will get harder with each stress put upon it. Not good for a knife blade, particularly a thin one that is required to flex in normal use, such as a filet knife. So, manufacturers use a low carbon stainless for cheap knives and that means they won't hold an edge like simple carbon steel.

440C stainless makes a great knife blade, but only if you mmake it thick enough to prevent a lot of flexing. But it will always be a PITA to sharpen due to the alloying materials that give it the great toughness.

Vanadium is added to steel alloys for the toughness it imparts. Chromium promotes hardenability, so a chrome-vanadium alloy with enough carbon to harden up is an excellent choice for a knife. That is what planer and jointer blades are made of, thus they make fine knives when used at a suitable hardness.

Molybdenum is also a toughening element, but is commonly used alloyed with some chrome and a low carbon content for purposes requiring extreme toughness. Common uses are frame tubing for go-karts, racing bicycles, some gun barrels, and industrial press tooling, using AISI 4140 steel.
http://www.tatasteelnz.com/downloads/HighTens_AISI4140.pdf

General tool steel reference info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool_steel

Good beginner's book for toolmaking in a forge, mostly with salvaged steels: http://www.amazon.com/The-Making-Tools-Alexander-Weygers/dp/0442293607

Here is more than you ever wanted to know about stainless steels:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stainless_steel


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

FatTire said:


> About making blades out of used material, what you guys think about making a hunting/combat type knife out of a planer blade (stainless steel, don't know more than that) from a lumber mill?


Do you have access to many planer blades?
they are a bit hard to work with being HSS but make a HELL of a good knife!
I've been looking for some wide ones for years!
send me 3 blades, I send you back one knife?


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

Magus said:


> Do you have access to many planer blades?
> they are a bit hard to work with being HSS but make a HELL of a good knife!
> I've been looking for some wide ones for years!
> send me 3 blades, I send you back one knife?











Yes I do 

Much as I'd love to drag u out of retirement bud, I wanna learn a skill more 

My best on u gettin better bud, blessed be...


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

when i get some more ill see about getting some to you tho, just cause i think ur good peeps bud


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Wow! how did you shape it?
much less drill it?
HSS is one of the toughest steels there is!


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

Magus said:


> Wow! how did you shape it?
> much less drill it?
> HSS is one of the toughest steels there is!


Actually my dad did it with a grinder and a plasma cutter, he's showing me hist thought process, I do the next one. Kewl bonus, elk antler handle... I'll put up a pic when it's done.

Then I'm gonna abuse and see what I wanna change for the next one


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