# How about Martial arts?



## Nexquietus (Jun 29, 2011)

Yes, yes I know. The interwebs are full of mall ninjas that can't wait to use their Coldsteel Double handed Katana Machete in combat. However, how many of us really train for that personal SHTF? Opinions vary on who's Kung-fu is strongest, but IMHO, by and large that's as relevant as what pistol everyone should carry. For my self I think one of the core disasters I should prep for is a violent personal confrontation. 

So how about it? What do you do? How do you feel about it? 

For my self, I trained in Aikijujutsu for about 8 years earning a black belt. Also during that time, I practiced Judo off and on getting a brown belt. Then about a year ago, I found a Pekiti Tersia Kali instructor and have been training in that. 

In all honesty, if you find a good instructor that teaches something other that slap boxing, then I think you are headed in the right direction. A real fight will likely be as much or more mental that it is skill. I say likely because I have yet to be in a fight. I have chosen to talk my way out of the fights I have been close to getting in. The sparring I have been doing in my Kali class has been very eye opening, combined with the aggressive offensive style has refocused me. 

I think it will be interesting seeing what people do, and why they do it.

jim


----------



## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

I agree that an ability to defend one's self with or without a weapon is paramount. 

I hate to jump on the MMA bandwagon, but I must say that I see a lot of value in what they are preaching, for two reason: First, if a fight goes on long enough, it will go to the ground, and a fighter really needs to be prepared (both mentally and physically) to grapple with someone in their guard. Second, odds are extremely long that one might ever face an opponent with exactly the same skill set, and as such, knowledge of multiple styles and schools of fighting is crucial.

I have trained in several different forms of martial arts, from karate and kendo to german broadsword and Italian rapier combat, in addition to basic boxing and ground fighting. All of these have helped the other, as they have given me different perspectives. Everyone seems to have their favorite martial art that they believe is the best, but I really think that familiarity with several is more important.


----------



## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Martial Arts*

Martial arts are only valid in an asocial violence situation if you are willing to go martial !

I have taken martial arts but actual martial blows are only simulated.

Unless you are willing to actually strike the groin , throat or gouge out an eye, it will be of little use to you in a real fight.

Unfortunately you actually will do what you train to do. If you pull or simulate these blows in training , you will pull them in combat.

Under stress, all fine motor control is lost and you are left with gross motor movements to defend your self.

Striking vital targets is the only thing that wins a fight. You have to shut down his ability to fight. You can only do this by injuring him.

You can not do this by defending . You have to go on the offensive to hurt someone.

You should never engage in social violence, (the guy in the bar who insults your wife) walk away.

If you apply social rules to asocial violence, you will wind up in the morgue.

In short you need to know where to strike and be willing to do it with out hesitation or mercy. That doesn't take a lot of training just a lot of will.


----------



## Nexquietus (Jun 29, 2011)

I agree with both of you. Turtle, you do see folks giving a lot of grief to people learning MMA. I see this mostly from people who don't practice anything. MMA's main shortcoming is the inability to deal with multiple attackers, but where it excels is in teaching that your opponent will be hyper aggressive. It also doesn't deal with weapons, but aggression can overcome even that given the right mindset. 

And like BillM pointed out, mindset is huge in dealing with a threat. I think that for most folks, myself included, "Hey give me your wallet" will initially be met with anger, then irritation as I give him my wallet and try to remember all the details I can to tell the cops later. I don't intend to fight those types because usually, they have every advantage they can think of, or they wouldn't be attacking. The really bad situations I can think of needing to defend myself in would be the "You have food, I want some" types where it directly effects the well being of my family, or any sort of kidnapping/abduction scenario, or even a home invasion. All those are cornered rat type threats where I am going to do whatever is necessarry. I don't train to not lose. 
One day in class we were calmly talking about how to position your opponant in order to spread his ribs apart so when held correctly, your knife will go in between them more easily, I knew I was learning something more than "Self defense". That kind of thinking switches you to offense. So knowing when it's ok to be THAT offensive, when that line can and should be crossed will be hard. But it will also be something that I have thought about and trained for.

Good points guys.

jim


----------



## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

Nexquietus said:


> Yes, yes I know... The interwebs are full of mall ninjas that can't wait to use their Coldsteel Double handed Katana Machete in combat. However, how many of us really train for that personal SHTF? Opinions vary on who's Kung-fu is strongest, but IMHO, by and large that's as relevant as what pistol everyone should carry.












:lolsmash: :lolsmash: :lolsmash: :lolsmash:

had to do it


----------



## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

Blob, that is flippin' hilarious! I have not seen that one before.

Nex, I think you touched on a great point; One must be prepared to kill. Nearly every close-quarters combat instructor with whom I have ever worked has stressed the point that when it is "go time", you cannot pull your punches or hope for the opponent to see the error of his ways. You "change his channel" for him. 

Remember that "lethal force" is defined as any level of force which could result in permanent disfigurement, loss of ability or function, up to and including death or dismemberment. That opens it up a little and gives you some perspective.

I have just recently become open to the MMA concept as it stands today. But remember, Bruce Lee was basically the first modern mixed martial artist; his art of Jeet Kun Do (forgive me if I have misspelled that) essentially blended the best aspects of several different Asian schools of martial arts, to minimize some of their inherent individual weaknesses. Speaking from my training and experience, many of the European schools of heavy swordplay (certainly the Scottish and German) also emphasized the importance of unarmed ground fighting. "Mixed Martial Arts" didn't originate with a hexagonal cage.


----------



## Nexquietus (Jun 29, 2011)

Too true. I have heard that the Dog Brothers (a full contact stick and knife fighting organization you should look up on you tube) asked the UFC to be included in their fights, but were deemed too extreme for their audience. I have said to folks thinking about knife fighting in the past, "Not killing someone with your fists is assault and battery, not killing them with a knife is attempted murder". Not sure how much truth there is to that, but I use it to get my point across. You have to be willing to cross that societal norm or you may as well not carry any weapons, nor train at all.

jim


----------



## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

My favorite martial art is *splat-fu* (that's where I push my opponent into an oncoming train).


----------



## Nexquietus (Jun 29, 2011)

I must admit that of the least known Martial Arts, I like ****-Jitsu. Where you find your self in a fight, and run the hell away..

jim


----------



## BillS (May 30, 2011)

Knowing self-defense techniques would be very useful in a SHTF scenario. I'd still have guns too. I'd rather kill them from a distance than have to do it in hand to hand combat. But if I was attacked or ambushed it would be nice to be able to defend myself.


----------



## TimB (Nov 11, 2008)

BillS said:


> Knowing self-defense techniques would be very useful in a SHTF scenario. I'd still have guns too. I'd rather kill them from a distance than have to do it in hand to hand combat. But if I was attacked or ambushed it would be nice to be able to defend myself.


Exactly. I know enough TaeKwonDo to protect myself and/or my wife if it came down to it but hopefully it will be from several feet away with my little buddy.  If I was able to do it, I would train MMA just for the mix of different styles of fighting.

Tim


----------



## Kai22 (Apr 30, 2011)

I have trained in both Judo (extensively) and Taekwondo. I was also an assistant instructor for self defense classes that were full contact. The instructor's belief was like what BillM said - you will do what you train to do, so there's no use in simulating blows/techniques. Obviously you can't really practice eye gouges, but pretty much everything else can be practiced if your practice person is in all the proper gear. I wouldn't say that one martial art is better than another - any knowledge of self defense, no matter what discipline it's in, is excellent to know, as long as you are willing to use it.

As for the MMA bandwagon, I'm on it too. Fights almost always go to the ground, so being versed in stand-up and ground techniques is useful. Another thing I think is useful in training (and not even specifically MMA) is learning to get hit. Some people get hit in the face and freak out and lose all sense of where they even are. Yeah, it's gonna hurt like hell, but you need to know how to deal with it - and need to know that you can overcome it.


----------



## child9 (Jul 19, 2011)

I have been taking Krav Maga, and I gotta say they teach and train for scenarios that are exactly what you are talking about. Using whatever range you have when realize a threat, disarming maneuvers, including gun to your face... knife fighting... and most of the training is you hitting full force into padding so you know what it feels like to make sure your "hammer fist" or elbow strikes the target. Follow up combos and incapacitating kicks to knees are taught to prevent an attacker chasing, and awareness of surroundings and preparedness to deal with multiple attackers are all taught even at beginner levels. Focus in KM is more on escape, while Haganah is more military and a little more personal. KM exits tend to be to the sides, while Hagannah exits tend to go through the opponent. Unlike a lot of focused MA's it is a lot like Bruce's methods in that is a combination of effective strikes, most of which aren't allowed in any sport. It is VERY streetable.
Found this too, thought it was fun.


----------



## lexsurivor (Jul 5, 2010)

If you going to take a martial arts make sure its not a mcdojo school where they hand out belts like candy. Also its good to make sure they are actually teaching self defence and not just flashy moves.

My dad owns a tae-kwon-do school. And I have been taking tae-kwon-do there ever since I was 4. Ive been doing it for almost 12 years. My dads school teaches the traditional aspect of tkd but it is also very self defence oriented. We are taught moves that we dont use in sparring or tournament but we practice them in case of a self defence scenario ex(knees,elbows,eye gouges,ect)
Also my dad had an instructer who taught Brasilian Jiu Jitsu teaching at his tkd school so I took BJJ for 4 years. Im looking into taking Maui Thai once I get my license. And Im pretty confident in my striking and grappeling abilities. Ive broken 2" of wood with an elbow smash and submitted people 2 years older and had 40lbs on me. So all in all I would say any martial art is a good tool to have in yor tool kit.


----------



## ttruscott (Mar 6, 2009)

I started martial arts training in 1972. I'm a 4th Dan in Karate and a 3d Dan in Okinawan weapons. My first teaching contract was in 1976.

As well I cross trained in Modern Arnis, 3 years, Bagua Zhang, 3 years and Chen taiji for 6 years. And have taught them for many years after.

Here are some thoughts:

It is up to your teacher if your MA is watered down to keep lazy people happy and injury free or not.

All MA have watered down versions out there, even Krav, (it only took about 5 years of no students in NA and they changed).

Sport systems do not teach self defence, whether it is a kata style system or a wrestling style.

Tournament traning does not teach you sd, teaches you very bad (read dangerous) sd habits and steals your training time.

Sport ≠ sd Reading List

Why you should talk to a lawyer before talking to the police... | Defend Yourself 101 by me about Critical Incidence Stress.

Are Martial Arts Self-Defense? by Marc MacYoung a professional witness about the use of vilence for both prosecution and defense and writer of many books on how to make your martial art more effective in the real world. Then join his Animal E-List...

Chiron Chiron Training, ex jail guard, ex trainer in Iraq, wrote _Mediations on Violence_, excellent read.

I recommend dirty fighting without any art. Think WWII close quarter combat. Clips here:

Close Quarter Combat: CQC | Defend Yourself 101

for surprise situations where you are caught without a weapon but in all cases,

you should have a weapon to hand, a back up near to hand, another two steps away and armed back up personel in the vicinity.

Gun fu is a great martial art. Start practicing.


----------



## lickit (Oct 6, 2011)

*None of MY "fights" went to the ground. *

HE did, after one punch or kick, but I never had to. Doing so is nearly always a very bad idea. It presumes that there is only one attacker, and that he has no weapons. Very, very bad assumptions, both of those. I learned a certain amount of groundfighting, but if shtf, nobody is going to attack you unarmed. Defending yourself against a machete or , worse, a couple pcs of angle iron, swung in each hand by a fit, agile, desperate man, with no weapon of your own, is a very stupid risk to take.


----------



## Wallrat (Oct 28, 2011)

Lots of good posts here. It's nice to see so many peeps that spent so much time training. I also devoted a bunch of years to martial arts, and at this point, on the far side of 50, I carry concealed. I've had to use my martial arts training on the street, and had to use my little friend too. My take on it is this: Many guys will not be intimidated by your training until the fight is in progress, or over. So, you and he both stand a chance of getting hurt. Even a street urchin can get lucky, pull a knife, or you slip and fall on a stone etc. 
Whenever I've had to present my gun (sadly, more than once) to defend myself or my posessions, I've gotten instant compliance, with zero danger to myself. I love the martial arts, but it's less than bringing a knife to a gunfight...it's showing up 'kara-te'...empty handed.


----------



## ttruscott (Mar 6, 2009)

> Wallreat:My take on it is this: Many guys will not be intimidated by your training until the fight is in progress, or over. So, you and he both stand a chance of getting hurt.


Well said...

40 years of various martial arts training (30 years teaching) and they are good only to fight to get a weapon because you were so careless as to be caught without one.

And before you try to mess with me that this implies an obvious lack of skill, why do they give soldiers all kinds of weapons if empty hand is so wonderful? 

Ted


----------



## tac803 (Nov 21, 2010)

I am most assuredly *NOT* a martial arts expert. I have a black belt and a brown belt, but they hold my pants up and my holster in place.

IMHO, the primary focus of any training should be mental. _ Mechanics _of punches and kicks are fairly easy to learn. Having the mental focus and dealing with your fear and the adrenaline dump when faced with a person that has no reservations about hurting or killing you may determine if you walk away or wind up in a body bag. If you have ever gone hands on with someone wanting to hurt or kill you, then you know it's a truly unique and religious experience.

Mental focus and competence in a skillset leads to confidence and a willingness to walk away if presented with that opportunity. You're not going to be in a position that you have to prove something, either to yourself or somebody else. That being said, developing a skillset and mental focus will let you react with less hesitation to situations presented to you. When somebody gets in your face to rob you, his or her plan of action has already been developed...while you are a little behind the curve. You only have seconds to respond, and how you do can make a world of difference.

Sometimes it's best to comply, but lately the local dirtbags are shooting people *AFTER* they give up their wallets and cash. Some recent speculation about gang initiations requiring the little animals to shoot somebody. There was a woman killed outside a wal mart in Albion, NY day before yesterday after an attempted robbery by 3 illegal aliens. They were after her vehicle, and one stabbed her multiple times outside the vehicle. They never got her minivan, 3 are in custody, and the rest of the unwashed hoarde living with them are in the care of ICE.

There is no such thing in the streets as a "fair fight".


----------



## Expeditioner (Jan 6, 2009)

BillS said:


> Knowing self-defense techniques would be very useful in a SHTF scenario. I'd still have guns too. I'd rather kill them from a distance than have to do it in hand to hand combat. But if I was attacked or ambushed it would be nice to be able to defend myself.


^^^^This^^^^ I am into MMA which included stick and knife fighting techniques. Knife fighting is the last thing I want to do.....you may win the fight but can be seriously injured in a knife fight. While developing fighting skills is important one also needs to work on identifying potentially dangerous situations and and how to avoid these situations while you have a choice.


----------



## wkrbee (Jul 29, 2010)

Kung Fu San Soo The first martial art.I'm a 4th degree Black Belt and Certified Instructor.The best thing about it?No set patterns.Example -four lessons can be put together to make 16 different responses.You learn one of the more structured arts,and if the guy going after you knows the same-he knows what you are going to do and can counter.We spar full contact.To get an idea watch some old Kung Fu TV shows.Jimmy Woo's, students did all the stunts,and it's as fast as what you see.No tournaments,no competitions,just no holds barred self defense.Watch some on Youtube.Started my boys out at 4 and 7.One or two minor run-ins in middle school.They didn't leave any marks,but they were NEVER bothered again.They are 22 and 25 now- two of the nicest,most polite,self confident men I know.


----------



## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

Training in the martial arts is great..You train for years to learn to have control. You can hit with precision. You can hit someone if confrontation is offered; before they realise.

What makes you think you will be told your about to be gutted? Your first requirement is situational awareness. Everything else only works in polite society. Not unlike what these techniques were designed to protect you in. Contrary to popular belief the middle ages weren't all that violent. It was mostly peaceful... with short bouts of fitful rage. Folks died during the fitful parts.

If SHTF... I for one wouldn't announce my intentions. Why would an attacker?


----------

