# Snow as a water source.



## bahramthered

In another thread I saw a lot of people debating best way to get water from snow. I thought I had a good understanding of this. 

Always use cleanest freshest snow you can.

If an option place plastic down during a snow fall and bag it, kind like a rain catcher, but with less reward but fewer leaks. It can becomes a solar snow melter (assuming it doesn't break) on most days. Slow but effective.

Boiling is best epsically if the snow is a lesser quality, treat it like water after that. But for that you need an energy source and container.

As for eating snow should only be done in small mouthfuls while active and if feed. It's true each mouthful does slightly lower your body temp, but that can be a good thing. In an winter environment you do not want to sweat, ever. A nutritionist once told me an 8oz glass of water one degree over freezing took 12 calories to heat enternally to body temp (that could add up in a low food situation but so could the energy expending looking for other methods). 

Les Strous (Survivorman) says he does this and his rule is when his mouth feels cold he stops till it doesn't. This doesn't take long and seems to be a good rule. 

No food, no heat, no activity, and or no insulation would all be dangerous. But so is dehydration. It's survival, be a judgement call.

The snow into the bag and into the clothes hits a similar problem. Your still using body heat. Now again if your active and have excess heat it could be a help, you wouldn't have to remove layers. This method is better for water you already attained to keep it from refreezing. It can start as a warm water bag if you have heat and help warm you and then just be kept ready for drinking. 

Holding snow and sucking in in an open hand is bad because it gets your hand wet, your hands are dirtier than you want to know, and opens your hands to the dangers of being wet in an winter environment. 

Just what I know from boyscouts, various survival shows, and experience.

Since the experts throughout my life have never agreed, I'm sure all of us will never agree. Should be interesting though.


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## lotsoflead

don't eat or melt the yellow snow


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## The_Blob

With the calories it takes to heat, and the substantially lower volume of snow after melting compared to already liquid water, you will more than likely die of exposure *and* dehydration if your only source of water is snow for an extended period of time.

I agree that the best tactic is converting it to liquid or *keeping* it in a liquid state if it already is. Also, fire GOOD! :2thumb:


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## GaryS

I don't understand the concern about using snow for water. We filled a cistern with snow many times during the winter, and it was our only water source for washing. Our families usually kept a tub on top the wood stove to melt snow, and it was the kids job to refill it. When out working or hunting in the snow, we never carried water along...we always ate snow. You just learn to consume only freshly fallen, or snow from below the top layer, which often contained dirt. We never worried about it lowering our body temperature, and I've eaten it many times when the temp was -20 to -40F.


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## The_Blob

GaryS said:


> I don't understand the concern about using snow for water. We filled a cistern with snow many times during the winter, and it was our only water source for washing. Our families usually kept a tub on top the wood stove to melt snow, and it was the kids job to refill it. When out working or hunting in the snow, we never carried water along...we always ate snow. You just learn to consume only freshly fallen, or snow from below the top layer, which often contained dirt. We never worried about it lowering our body temperature, and I've eaten it many times when the temp was -20 to -40F.


but you didn't use it as your *only* water source for days on end, while continuously exposed to those same temps, right? :dunno:

I'm willing to bet at the end of a long day of working outside or hunting you came home and *drank* quite a bit of fluid too.


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## mosquitomountainman

The_Blob said:


> ...I'm willing to bet at the end of a long day of working outside or hunting you came home and *drank* quite a bit of fluid too.


That's the key right there. The water content of even wet snow is so low that in order to get enough to keep you hydrated you're going to end up hypothermic by eating it. A mouthfull here and there probably won't hurt you but it's not really going to help a lot either.

The moral of the story? Carry survival gear that's appropriate for the season. In winter carry a square of aluminum foil which can be used as a pan to melt snow and carry what you need to build a fire to melt snow. A candle will melt a surprising amount of snow. You can put the foil, candle and a butane lighter in your shirt pocket and you're all set.


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## GaryS

mosquitomountainman said:


> That's the key right there. The water content of even wet snow is so low that in order to get enough to keep you hydrated you're going to end up hypothermic by eating it. A mouthfull here and there probably won't hurt you but it's not really going to help a lot either.
> 
> The moral of the story? Carry survival gear that's appropriate for the season. In winter carry a square of aluminum foil which can be used as a pan to melt snow and carry what you need to build a fire to melt snow. A candle will melt a surprising amount of snow. You can put the foil, candle and a butane lighter in your shirt pocket and you're all set.


The amount of water in fresh snow mostly depends on the temperature when it falls. Old, drifted snow doesn't contain much water, but it has enough to keep you hydrated under most conditions. Your body doesn't lose a lot of moisture in extreme cold. When I was a kid, we often broke off icicles and sucked on them like popcicles, and they are nearly 100% water.

FWIW, butane lighters won't light when it's below zero. If you carry them in an inside pocket so they are warmed by your body, they work a little bit, but in cold country I always carried a Zippo. It works well in wind, will light at any temperature, and it will burn almost any fuel...rubbing alcohol, jet fuel and even liquor. Been there...done that. Lord knows, I was even dumb enough to try gasoline when I was desperate. You didn't want to try that in hot weather though!

Just make sure to keep a couple of extra flints under the felt pad. In the old Air Force, nearly everyone carried a Zippo, even non-smokers. Many is the time I've warmed my hands with one of them when it was the only heat source around.


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## The_Blob

GaryS said:


> The amount of water in fresh snow mostly depends on the temperature when it falls. Old, drifted snow doesn't contain much water, but it has enough to keep you hydrated under most conditions. Your body doesn't lose a lot of moisture in extreme cold.


 :gaah:  :gaah:  :gaah:  :gaah:  :gaah:

If you're not careful, it's very easy to become dehydrated in the winter particularly if you're engaged in activities like logging, snowshoeing, cross country skiing or mountaineering. Under these conditions, it's not enough to be on the lookout for yellow pee; *you need to hydrate before exertion and regularly during all outdoor activities*.

*Dehydration is accelerated in cold weather or at higher altitudes because the air we breath is drier. Normally, people lose between one to two quarts of water a day via evaporation from the lungs. When we breathe, our bodies humidify dry air and heat it up to our body's temperature, which is why your exhalations look like fog in cold weather. In cold weather, your body has to work harder to humidify the air you breathe and to warm it up, meaning that you need to drink more water and eat more (which means you have to drink more water also) if you are outdoors. A widely accepted rule of thumb (for a 6' 200lb man, portion accordingly) is to drink at least 4 quarts a day, but many people will drink twice that under high exertion levels or over 10,000 feet of altitude. *

Psychologically, it's easy to skip hydration breaks during winter activities because you are less likely to *feel* thirsty. *But the consequences are MUCH higher, as dehydration can accelerate hypothermia, frostbite or fatigue.* Therefore, you need to pace yourself accordingly and drink and eat at frequent intervals to keep up with the demands of your body. I always carry a watch with me outdoors, and make a habit to drink and eat at regular intervals (2hrs).


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## GaryS

Okay, I guess I died a few hundred times and never realized it. But then the coldest I ever experienced while hunting was -52.


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## GaryS

I'm not trying to be a SA, I'm only trying clarifying things for folks who have never experienced severe cold. 

When it's snowing at 32F, it's easy to extract water, but at much lower temps, you get by with what you have. At -40, you can't carry a canteen unless it's against your body and covered by all your layers of clothes, because it will freeze solid in a few minutes if not. If the canteen is metal and you carry it on your belt and you try to drink from it before it has frozen, your lips will stick to the canteen's mouth the instant it touches the metal. Torn skin is no fun in any kind of weather. If the container is plastic, it will feeze solid, and even if you start a fire, you can't thaw plastic over a fire. 

Allow me to explain how quickly things freeze in those conditions. At minus 45, when you throw a glass of water into the air, it comes down fozen. When you spit, it is frozen when it hits the ground. Water vapor in the air falls from a sunny, cloudless sky as tiny snow flakes. Trees snap like rifle shots as they freeze and split, and the snow creaks and groans as you walk on it.

The time I went hunting at -52, I did it only to say I had done it...stupid is as stupid does. I was about 3-1/2 miles from home when I jumped a jack rabbit. I shot and hit it, but it kept on running for about 200 yards before it fell. By the time I got to it, the animal was frozen solid. Any water in a pack or on my hip would have frozen as quickly as that jack. On the way home, I had to stop and burrow into a snow bank more than once to warm up enough to keep going. 

All I'm saying is that I'm not going to waste the effort to carry water in that kind of weather. I either have to get by eating snow, or create a way to thaw it before drinking. If I'm about to leave on a 10 mile hike in 100F, I'm going to pack all the water I can carry, but if it's below zero, I'll have to rely on the moisture nature dropped all around me.


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## JoKing

A guesstimation the Yankee snow powers use is that a foot of snow is an inch of rain.


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## dunappy

In 2001 There were two kids lost in the local national park for 11 days. They survived on snow fall. One of the two kids had very basic survival training and was able to set up a shelter. The one boy basically kept himself and the other boy alive. He would harvest the snow off their Nylon pants and in the cave helmets they had with them. He would then stuff it in their canteens and in the helmets and melt it to drink. It was early April where it can be warm or cold depending on the day. For example yesterday here it was almost 70 and sunny. Today it's snowing and the high is around 45. For the days the two were lost, it was mostly cold and snowy with a few warm sunny days. They didn't have enough fuel to start a fire as they were located on top of an old volcano crater with very little plant growth. The one kid actually dug a depression in the lava cinders And covered it with the green pinon branches. 

You can talk all you want when you don't need it, but you do what ever it takes to survive when the time comes.


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## The_Blob

GaryS said:


> Allow me to explain how quickly things freeze in those conditions. At minus 45, when you throw a glass of water into the air, it comes down fozen.


Note: this only happens with *very* hot water (within 4-5 degrees of boiling point depending on impurities) due to the enhanced evaporation rate from the extra thermal (and kinetic) energy AND the suddenly hugely increased surface area, AND the comparitively high humidity of such cold air is greatly reduced due to the immediate air around the tiny globules of the thrown mug of water being warmed up by said water, causing a drop of (very) localized humidity allowing for more heat transport and more rapid state change - cold water just lands as cold water.

yeah, THAT was long & boring 

friends don't let friends post misinformation that will GET PEOPLE KILLED.


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## OldCootHillbilly

Yall will dehydrate in the winter just as easily in the summer but without realizin it! I work outside all year long an in the winter be the hardest ta get the fellers ta drink enough ta keep em properly hydrated.

On average, snow be 90% air and 10% water, ice be 90% water an 10% air. Only eat snow ifin it be a last resort. Ever little bit a core temp drop ya get puts ya that much closer ta hypothermia.


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## Magus

But don't you know snow is full of pollution and can harbor micro organisms just waiting to thaw out inside you?

Why were you hunting in the arctic circle anyway?


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## GaryS

Magus said:


> But don't you know snow is full of pollution and can harbor micro organisms just waiting to that out inside you?
> 
> Why were you hunting in the arctic circle anyway?


If you're asking me, I was hunting on our farm in North Dakota...state record -63F in a town 15 miles from our farm. Dad said his thermometer indicated -67 that day.

As a kid, my income was derived from trapping muskrats for their pelts, and by hunting jackrabbits for their fur and carcass. Depending on the year and the demand, I was paid between 10 cents and $1.25 for pure white jacks.

As for pollution in snow, yes, there certainly is, just as there is in every raindrop, and in every breath we've taken since dinosaurs roamed the earth...when North Dakota was covered with seas and tropical forests. Life is a gamble, but I'll die of something other than worrying about it.


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## Magus

Darwin award wanna be.

Gilardria can survive being frozen, so can Amoebas that cause dysentery.but when you was a kid I expect the pollution was a lot less.


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## GaryS

Magus said:


> Darwin award wanna be.QUOTE]
> 
> I believe you, now if I can only find the proper priority for it on my worry list...
> 
> global warming
> coffee caused cancer
> consumption of animal fats
> obesity
> auto crashes
> race wars
> inflation
> deflation
> tornados
> 2nd hand smoke
> missing warning label on my mattress
> adequate sunscreen protection
> STDs
> restless leg syndrome
> low testosterone
> cell phone radiation
> genetically modified seed corn
> mad cow disease
> bird flu
> Iranian nuclear weapons
> North Korean nuclear weapons
> global cooling
> my stock portfolio
> the noise in my truck's engine
> coal burning power plants
> snail darter survival
> the next American Idol winner
> if Romney will pave over Michelle's garden
> 
> ...and a few hundred more. If I show up on the Darwin awards, you can enoy the laugh on me, but don't toast the event with a diet drink. I'm told they're bad for you.


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## horseman09

JMHO, but I am not a bit convinced that eating snow Occassionaly is going to, or is even likely to, harm anyone in most of the rural areas of the country. Perhaps if you live downwind of a coalfired power plant and snow is your only source of water for years, well, OK. Ya might have a problem eventually.

JMHO. In any event, I'd rather drink a good lager than eat snow anyhow. :beercheer:


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## Magus

GaryS said:


> Magus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Darwin award wanna be.QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> Do you worry your stupid advice will kill someone? I do.
Click to expand...


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## GaryS

Magus said:


> GaryS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you worry your stupid advice will kill someone? I do.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I don't. But, as you said, I'm stupid. I didn't advise anyone to eat snow, I only told you of my experiences and what worked for me. People can make up their own mind what to do, and it's none of my business.
> 
> To ease your mind, and prevent a snow-caused health crisis, I will cease sharing my experiences and defer to the scientists, government bureaucrats, do-gooders and terminal worriers of the world. Any further posts on my part will be first presented to a federal screener for evaluation.
Click to expand...


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## JoKing

Step 1- Pack a butt load of snow in your butt. 
Step 2- Squat over GI cup and wait for snow to melt. 
Step 3- Enjoy.


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## Magus

I never called You stupid, just said your eating snow was.There's kids in here just starting of "citified defensive systems" that that particular advice would kill in a survival situation.You see I grew up in the hills myself on a farm,you'd think my system could take anything?then one day I ate a cup of "snow cream" and spent a week in bed for a kind of dysentery.if you're he man and can take it, kudos!you are a miracle of human evolution.for us wimps that can't...we'd like a shot at life too.


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## JoKing

Magus said:


> ...I grew up in the hills myself on a farm,you'd think my system could take anything?then one day I ate a cup of "snow cream" and spent a week in bed for a kind of dysentery...


Please tell me that you didn't make snow cream from the outhouse frost...lol seriously, what were the circumstances?


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## horseman09

Magus said:


> I never called You stupid, just said your eating snow was.There's kids in here just starting of "citified defensive systems" that that particular advice would kill in a survival situation.You see I grew up in the hills myself on a farm,you'd think my system could take anything?then one day I ate a cup of "snow cream" and spent a week in bed for a kind of dysentery.if you're he man and can take it, kudos!you are a miracle of human evolution.for us wimps that can't...we'd like a shot at life too.


Magus, respectfully, I am extremely doubtful that your intestinal problems were caused by eating snow. Your statement, "one day I ate a cup of "snow cream" and spent a week in bed for a kind of dysentery" is akin to saying, "One day I ate pickles, and the next day I got hit by a bus." Lots of variables that could have caused your dysentary.

Conversely, I doubt that a winter has passed in my many decades of life that I have not eaten snow many times each winter -- with no ill effects. If precip is so bad, eating lettuce out of the garden following a rain should cause the same nasty intestinal issues?


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## The_Blob

My only problem is that is that GaryS' conclusion is that his *short term* experience with eating snow can be interpolated to a long term survival scenario; and those who are otherwise ignorant of the long term effects of what amounts to be comparitively very little water could place themselves in danger unnecessarily. As for giiardia and other microbes, to paraphrase medschool, "you're not sick, until you're warm and sick" 

Going out for *the day*, to do whatever, and eating some snow to remove 'dry mouth' then coming home and warming up, eating/drinking etc will probably not have much affect on your lifestyle; expanding that to 3+ days 'in the poop', burrowing into snowdrifts to get out of the wind, no fire, no (liquid) water... even if you had food, eating it would dehydrate you more, and eating snow (as opposed to melting it, which has issues as well) becomes a real danger.


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## Magus

All I know is what the doctor told me.its been like 35 years ago.



JoKing said:


> Please tell me that you didn't make snow cream from the outhouse frost...lol seriously, what were the circumstances?


No.we had the usual foot of snow, granny got a gallon of it and threw in the sugar and milk.I ate it.I never ate it again.there's been only a few times in my life I was sick enough to die, that was the first.


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## horseman09

Magus said:


> All I know is what the doctor told me.its been like 35 years ago.QUOTE]
> 
> When I was growing up in the fifties and sixties, we often heard that it was unsafe to eat snow because of radiation. Those were the days of nuke tests inside the US and elsewhere.
> 
> I wonder if that concern took on a life of its own and grew from there?
> 
> I usually hunt the first Monday, Tuesday, Friday and Saturday of deer season, and most often I'm out for the entire day unless I get lucky early. If there is snow on the ground, I usually make a small snow ball and suck on it while I'm slow-hunting. After 40 + years of doing that, I'm still kickin'!  :dunno:


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## Magus

Hmmmmm....It WAS about that time,say early 70's.wonder now if I actually had radiation poisoning!
This was the same guy who diagnosed me with chickenpox TWICE!Now I'm wondering what ELSE got screwed up!


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