# Prisons... after TSHTF



## gypsysue

This question was raised in another thread (SHTF shopping trip). The concern was raised by someone who has prisons within 50 miles of their home.

What about prisons and jails? What will become of the prsioners if TSHTF? Will they be released? Left to starve? ??? :dunno:

I know that not all prisoners are violent, but what about those that are? There are some pretty hard cases locked away. Imagine if they were all turned loose?


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## TheAnt

Although at first glance this scares the heck out of most of us we should all realize that there is a larger population OUTSIDE of prison that poses a threat than the population currently inside them.


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## kyhoti

I actually wouldn't mind scoping out a prison as a rather defensible location. After the current residents move out, of course. And I too am more concerned with John Q. Public going rabid than I am about a bunch of criminals. The mob is a waaaaay scarier beast.


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## Davarm

We live within about 10 miles from a medium security prison, I would think that if they are let out(or escape), the inmates would unass the area and get as far away as possible. They probably would not realize that sometimes the best place to hide is right out in the open under the noses of those they are hiding from.

I'm with the bunch that is more afraid of the "rabid population outside of the prison", or better yet, those who let them out.


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## Claymore5150

Wesley-Rawles seems to think they will eventually be let out when they can no longer be properly fed, according to "Patriots".
Maybe a month post-fan, could be less, could be more.

The big issues within "The System" are multiple. If the power grid fails, they won't have enough fuel to run their generators for very long.
The guards have a "Force Multiplier" with the camera systems within the jails and prisons. If those fail, you have to add 3-5 more personnel per pod/block/floor.
A lot of the inner gates are electronically controlled from a central guard house. If you can't buzz in and out, things will get dicey.

If there is a water shortage or complete failure, hygiene will be non-existent and disease will spread rapidly within "the walls".

Food...there are one or two, maybe a few prisons that raise their own livestock and do their own gardening. That's a very small minority of incarcerated people, though.
LA county jail probably houses more prisoners on a daily basis than the ones that are somewhat self-supported. I can't see Los Angeles County moving into the countryside so they can provide their own food.

Considering that big county jails like LA County house 19000 inmates on a daily basis, yes 19 THOUSAND inmates, they cannot possibly expect to maintain security without their force multipliers, food, and water.

They only have two options...
Let them out
Leave them locked up to starve/disease them out

Stats on wikipedia (we know how that goes, but it was easily found, how accurate? not sure) state that....
"In 2008 approximately one in every 31 adults (7.3 million) in the United States was behind bars, or being monitored (probation and parole)"

"In addition, there were 86,927 held in juvenile facilities as of the 2007 Census of Juveniles in Residential Placement (CJRP), conducted by the Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention.[12][13]" (Different year study, but an idea of number of under 18 behind bars).

Essentially 3% (give or take) of the ADULT population is incarcerated based on the numbers from 2009.

Not only are there that many, but a good portion of them are known to be "gang" affiliated. There are a bunch that are NOT yet "known" to be affiliated, yet probably are. Essentially that means is the bad guys run in packs, in the jails or not, and they don't care about the consequences of going into the penal system to begin with, so think of how they'll feel if they get let OUT and there is NO MORE CHANCE OF BEING LOCKED UP?

In essence, there's gonna be wild and crazy "somewhat normal" folk out there going haywire because it hit the fan, and then we'll have to add in the MZB's from the incarcerated 3% of the population (which does NOT include the under 18 thugs who either haven't been caught yet or dropped off the radar when they turned 18.

How's THAT for warm and fuzzy?


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## TimB

Thanks.  Like I didn't have enough to worry about.   
Seriously, I never even thought about it. Local county jails (several are huge) plus a Federal Pen in Atlanta. Something to consider... :sssh:

Tim


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## horseman1946

:wave:I was the one that posted the question about the prisons. Claymore gave some good info, and seeing as how we are somewhat close to each other location wise, we probably have the same prisoners to worry about. One of the prisons here is Virginia's Super-Max (Red Onion Mountain), seems like they have an inmate murder each year. The prisoners there are mostly lifers, with no chance of parole. 

I think most inmates, if not all, would be turned loose to fend for themselves. One reason for thinking that, I can't see the guards leaving their families to fend for themselves while they stay on the job. Remember Katrina, and the NOPD and NOFD reactions.


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## goatlady

horseman, you might want to re-think your reasoning. If/when the prison guards leave their posts or do not show up for work why would you think they would release the prisoners who they have been guarding and watching, and knowing for years? Those guards live in the vacinity of the prison as do their families, and I guarantee you those guards do NOT want those men turned loose in their family neighborhoods especially the rapists and murderers and child abusers. There really is NO safe or sane solution, it will happen as it happens.


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## horseman09

If we can believe the media, many if not most prisons have some pretty hardcore gangs. 

If they were either released or if they bashed down the walls to escape, it seems likely the gangs would retain much of their structure which would mean ready-made, very violent squad or platoon size bad guys with lots of experience with violence sans conscience.

Ugly. Very ugly.


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## NaeKid

gypsysue said:


> This question was raised in another thread (SHTF shopping trip). The concern was raised by someone who has prisons within 50 miles of their home.
> 
> What about prisons and jails? What will become of the prsioners if TSHTF? Will they be released? Left to starve? ??? :dunno:
> 
> I know that not all prisoners are violent, but what about those that are? There are some pretty hard cases locked away. Imagine if they were all turned loose?


I did a quick-check from my place to some of the nearest correctional facilities and the closest is about 50km. Walking-distance of almost 10hrs according to GoogleMaps. There is another one that is about 60km away and GoogleMaps says walking time is about 11hrs.

I did a quick 'net search and found that in 1908, President T. Roosevelt wanted the military-boys to train to walk 50 miles. He figured that 3 days would be just fine and that most wouldn't be able to do it in the time allotted, but, some did it in a day.

http://www.absurdintellectual.com/2...teddy-roosevelt-and-jfk-say-20-hours-or-less/

*24hrs to walk 50 miles.*

What kind of shape do you think a prisioner would be in to walk 50 miles? What kind of shape would they be in if they knocked on your door after walking 50 miles? All you would see is someone who is exhausted and could be pushed-over by a feather. How will you know that they have been released from prison, especially if there are no "visible signs" like prison-tattoos or prison-issued clothing? Unless they tell you that they left prison, they will look like someone who was just dragged through the wringer and tossed out to dry.

I would think that if one knocked on your door, you will be filled with compassion more than loathing .... until you find out why they were in prison in the first place.

If you haven't watched the movie "Last house on the left", you will not know what I mean by my next statement.

You will take a person at their word, you will trust that they are as honest as you are. They will gain entrance to your home and you will realize that it is too late. You will be forced to make some serious decisions quickly. What you choose is something that you will have to live with for the rest of your life ...


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## CulexPipiens

Unless they're turned loose with a bag of MRE's, they would be starting out with pretty much nothing. If we're already well into a SHTF, then most "unclaimed" resources (convenience stores, etc) will probably have already been looted so with no food or water the majority of them have 2-3 days at best until they get to the desperate point and maybe a week until most will probably be too weak to continue. Sure there will be a number that is smart enough to make it but I would think a relatively small percentage of the original amount.

I also agree with goatlady... why would the guards open the doors knowing that now they'll have to deal with these people in their community. Turn the lights off, leave the doors locked and abandoning them is more likely.


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## UncleJoe

kyhoti said:


> I actually wouldn't mind scoping out a prison as a rather defensible location.


 I don't remember which one, probably one of Jerry D. Young's, but one of the PAW fiction stories I read addressed this. A group went to see what had happened to a local prison population and found the compound empty. They then proceeded to set it up as their new home base.


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## Emerald

I live with in 15 miles of several major prisons. I have often thought about this. one of the minimum ones is now closed and hubby said (with a chuckle) that it would be a great place to stave off the zombie hoards. plenty of room for growing inside the fencing and with greenhouses and if you were smart enuf to put up solar and wind turbines.. you may be able to make a great strong hold.

I just checked and there are 5 in that one town.. plus the county lock up. plus one of the prisons is for criminally insane.. yea skippy..


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## BillM

*If government*

If the government is overthrown or inactive, the prisoners will all empty out.

In every sociaty where revolution or insolvency of government has occured , the prisons are opened up and the inmates walk free.


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## gypsysue

Well, I for one am glad that I don't live near any prisons. The nearest county lock-up is 65 miles away. The nearest actual prison is over 200 miles away. I'm amazed at how many of you calmly say it's not a big deal to release them, that it'll probably happen, and that the outside masses will be more dangerous. I disagree. 

If you really know what those guys in the MaxSec prisons are like you wouldn't want them released anywhere, let alone within a few days' walking distance from your home. If you think the sheeple are going to be panicked and dangerous, wait and see what these prison gangs will do. They don't have the same moral compass as the sheeple. I know hunger and fear can drive violence, but I think I'd rather face the scared masses than the hardened prison gangs. (Though I hope not to face either!)

It's interesting to read everyone's opinions, and I hope you keep posting them even though my opinion is different from some of you.

But no one seems to know what the protocol is. Surely prison management people have discussed such things? I realize that if TSHTF it might be hard to enforce or enact the previously made plans, since guards and other employees might stop showing up for work (possibly abruptly, and I can't blame them). 

I'm more and more grateful for where I live. Some of you really have some serious stuff in your areas, and not just prisons. You're braver than I am.


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## TimB

It just occurred to me that my daughters future father-in-law is retired from the Federal Prison system (former Warden). Next time I see him, I'll bring it up and see what he thinks would happen or if there are protocols for it.

Tim


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## Fiona

I agree with Horseman - these inmates already have a society they belong to inside the walls. They already know the best way to protect oneself is to join with others. They'll be scouring the neighborhoods outside the prison as they walk wherever they're going, pillaging, pilfering and generally taking whatever (and possibly whomever) they want. They also "respect" firearms, esp when they're on the barrel end of one. They will avoid houses with many and various visible protection packages showing through windows etc. We have 3 dogs and firearms. We live THISCLOSE to the road in front of our farm. Each one of my kids will be on the upper levels of the house w/weapons pointed out the windows, saying "Howdy". That's my hope anyway!


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## Claymore5150

Another thing to think about is that a lot of the guys IN the system are in some of the best "shape" physically that they can be in.

All they do is work out and walk around the yard, maybe play some ball. They have nothing better to do than hit the weight pile and walk around.

If they're locked up in their cell for 23hrs, I'm betting a good many of them knock out at least a couple hundred pushups, pullups, situps, etc. just to beat the boredom.

I'm a hardcore prisoner, in good shape, HUNGRY because there hasn't been much to eat. They open my cage, my first priority is some clothes so I don't stick out like a sore thumb and then get some food...any house within 5 miles of that place is gonna get ransacked FAST.

Also keep in mind that these guys are VERY adept and resourceful at making something from nothing. They can boil water with a spark, a roll of TP, and a plastic bottle, perfectly, EVERY time. 
They don't need a knife or a gun, they create weapons out of EVERYTHING. 
They will run in packs just like they do on the yard. Strength in numbers. 


I can't wait to hear what TimB finds out from his in-law. That should be some interesting info.

I wouldn't doubt that they don't really HAVE a plan for such a thing. MOST people don't THINK about it like we do.


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## TechAdmin

I would imagine like many they would be reliant on family and friends and attempt to return to their place of origination. 

I'm a few miles from a low security (mainly drug offenders) prison and I have no concerns that they are more violent than any other hungry scared person.


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## jjwilson72000

Depends on the prison. Most County Jails don't hold long term (violent) offenders. If I was anywhere near a state or federal prison I would be concerned.

Like someone else said they are probably in the best shape of their life, are resourceful, and already have a pack hierarchy.

If I saw a group of jumpsuits approaching my property I would be much more likely to shoot first instead of offering aid.


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## The_Blob

If I were in my PA location, which has 10 federal &/or state penitentiaries within 2 days walk, I would hope the bears and snakes would get em' if they were released.


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## partdeux

TimB said:


> It just occurred to me that my daughters future father-in-law is retired from the Federal Prison system (former Warden). Next time I see him, I'll bring it up and see what he thinks would happen or if there are protocols for it.
> 
> Tim


I'd bet they have absolutely no protocol for a total societal collapse, and even if they did, it will be pure adhoc anarchy.

In general, prisons are for felony types, jails are for most other criminals.


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## gypsysue

We could expand this question (original post) to include mental hospitals and asylums... 

Sad, but when the employees stop coming in to their jobs, what happens to the people in those facilities? Among other things, they'll no longer have their medications (which is a point for much of society, too!). 

If you live near one of these facilities or a prison, at least give thought to the possibilites.


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## BillM

*Prison Riots*

About 20 years ago, our regional Justice Center, made the decision to hire a Nutritionist to prepare menus of healthy food for the prisoners.

She, (a twenty-four year old liberal college graduate), decided to have a meat free salad day.

Being primarily a meat and potatoes crowd they had a food riot in the cafeteria.

My point is that when they will riot over "Salad day" what will they do when they think they are going to starve?

Other things that can start a riot were, someone changing the T V channel during "Shennia Princess Warrior Queen" and restrictions on smoking !

These people are incarcerated for a reason.

They don't need much change in their world to go off !


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## mdprepper

gypsysue said:


> We could expand this question (original post) to include mental hospitals and asylums...
> 
> Sad, but when the employees stop coming in to their jobs, what happens to the people in those facilities? Among other things, they'll no longer have their medications (which is a point for much of society, too!).
> 
> If you live near one of these facilities or a prison, at least give thought to the possibilites.


:gaah: I shudder at the thought!


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## The_Blob

gypsysue said:


> We could expand this question (original post) to include mental hospitals and asylums...
> 
> Sad, but when the employees stop coming in to their jobs, what happens to the people in those facilities? Among other things, they'll no longer have their medications (which is a point for much of society, too!).
> 
> If you live near one of these facilities or a prison, at least give thought to the possibilites.


Most of these 'clients' (yes, that is the preferred term in the MRDD/MIMH industry) have much more self-limiting behavior(s) that they are primarily a danger to themselves; as opposed to a 'gang' (aryan brotherhood, la raza, black muslim nation etc etc) of semi-organized thugs that set forth with a 'goal' even if that goal is merely survival, they will do it in the most expeditious manner possible (aka at someone else's expense).

Prison reform is needed in both directions, one of which is to make it a place that NOBODY would ever want to go, or laugh off as an acceptable risk for committing serious crimes. The other would be to decriminalize (on a case-by-case basis) certain offenses (prostitution and smaller amounts of marijuana immediately come to mind).


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## TechAdmin

Any History buffs know of other instances of what happens to inmates in War/Disaster?

Like after Katrina, Haiti, Indian tsumani?

IIRC New Orleans inmates got released.


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## Tweto

Austin said:


> Any History buffs know of other instances of what happens to inmates in War/Disaster?
> 
> Like after Katrina, Haiti, Indian tsumani?
> 
> IIRC New Orleans inmates got released.


I thought that everybody knew this. During the Katrina mess I was watching live video feed with a couple of hundred guys all in uniforms walking across a bridge. The annoucer said that they were county prisoners released from jail. The authorities said that after the emergency they will have to round-them-up. I never read this in print.

I hope everyone has a nice day.


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## Davarm

Anyone ever heard of "Bastille Day" during the French Revolution? The liberated prisoners didnt cause their revolution but during the turmoil and chaos the convicts were released by the mobs.

It would be reasonable to to "assume" that they probably took part in the massacre(revenge) of the french elite during the revolution and did not just disappear into the countryside . Same thing can happen here, the only question is which group would be targeted for persecution.


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## gypsysue

I somehow missed anything about the prisoners released during/after Katrina. Can anyone fill in more details? I had no idea.


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## mdprepper

Found this:


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## Tweto

mdprepper said:


> Found this:


Good video, it looks like only some of them escaped. It is strange that it takes the BBC to do this.

Thanks


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## The_Blob

Tweto said:


> Good video, it looks like only some of them escaped. It is strange that it takes the BBC to do this.
> 
> Thanks


well, it's harder to bring pressure against foreign venues, especially now that we've gone back to 'Paper Tiger' status


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## SlobberToofTigger

My BOL is near a prison so I took the time to do the research required. I spoke with a gentleman who wrote a number of the disaster response manuals for state prisons. I also spent some time talking to prison investigators from maximum security prisons. Until you spend time talking to folks like these, who deal with maximum security prisoners on a daily basis, you have no clue of the brutality the prisoners are capable of.

Essentially the response depends on the state and who was in charge when the manual was written (federal prisons may have different protocols). In a number of states it also varies by the level of incarceration. As the prison near me is a maximum security facility that is what I asked about. Essentially the prison has a number of months of food stashed in a local warehouse to feed the prisoners in case there is a food shortage. If the facility is damaged there are plans to put the prisoners in tents in the yard with the understanding a reasonable number of them will kill each other. And if there is a total systemic failure that would cause the release of the population the plan calls for executing them in their cells.

The real answer is that it depends on the level of the prison population, the specific policy in the state you reside, and if the guards are capable of carrying out their orders. The likelihood is that by the time the order was given to execute the prisoners it would be to late. Here is the scenario that will most likely play out in the case of a systemic failure. One or two of the prisoners will escape and free their friends. This groups will take revenge on their prison enemies. While this is going on some of the other folks will get freed and there will be a general free for all in the prison. A reasonable number of the inmates will be killed (>50%). The remaining inmates will escape the prison and go on a rampage locally slowly moving out following roads until they mix into the population or are killed.

If you are near a prison your survival will rely more on luck than anything else with that luck being based on if you are in the path of their diaspora. Maximum security prisoners are not nice folks and the ones that make it through the initial reduction will be the least nice of the bunch. If you meet up with a gang of them some percentage of your group and some percentage of theirs will die. If they get away they will be back with more fire power and friends to even the score. Revenge is one of the major drivers in prison life. If you are wronged or put down in any way you are no longer a man until you fix that wrong. Essentially unless you kill all of the prison gang, that you fight off, they will be back until either you eventually die or they do.


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## gypsysue

Thank you, SlobberToofTigger. That's the kind of information I was looking for. And it's pretty much what I expected. The MaxSec prisoners are not human in the sense of you and I.


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## efbjr

Davarm said:


> They probably would not realize that sometimes the best place to hide is right out in the open under the noses of those they are hiding from.


Isn't that what Osama did?


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## Geistmacher

This would not be a good scenario. 

Geist


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## lazydaisy67

I would imagine that you wouldn't stop to find out if they were from the prisons if they ended up on your yard. I doubt if they got that far they'd be knocking on your door. More like kicking it open. Just shoot and make sure you don't miss.


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## gypsysue

The whole subject is eye-opening in terms of this: The wandering hordes or whoever shows up in your yard might not be just sheeple who are starving. They could be from ANY type of background or place. Even if you have a policy of greeting people who come to your door, keep in mind what you might be dealing with. Something along the line of a wolf in sheep's clothing?


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## BillM

*Generally speaking*

People who escape from prison want to get as far away from the prison as possable. Just do not become the means to that end !


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## UncleJoe

I believe they would also be more inclined to head to the nearest large metro area in order to disappear into the crowd.


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## SlobberToofTigger

BillM said:


> People who escape from prison want to get as far away from the prison as possable.


An intelligent person would think so. But in my discussions with some of the prison investigators many of their stories around prison escapes (and they seem to happen a lot) involved the escapees not going very far away. Especially if the prison was in a city. So I am not sure that the "get as far away" idea that people like us would assume, is true. But, then again, if we are lucky we will never know for sure.


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## Viking

Being concerned about prisoner release is one thing another is who is already living around you that's been freed. www.felonspy.com/search.html


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## SlobberToofTigger

Viking said:


> Being concerned about prisoner release is one thing another is who is already living around you that's been freed. www.felonspy.com/search.html


I agree completely as one is a theoretical issue whereas the felons living around you is a fact. Just for fun I tried out the felonspy tool and got some interesting results. When I provided an address that is in the middle of a national forest where there is no privately owned land and no houses it came up with a surprising number of folks. The next search I did was to use the FDLE criminal database for a zip code and then search for the addresses of known felons. The felonspy tool found none of the known felons from the official FDLE tool... I am thinking that either through intent or incompetence the felonspy tool is not as accurate as one might like. To be a bit more direct I would say that the felonspy folks are just randomly putting names next to addresses to create fear and then using this to sell their other products. On the other hand one of the felonspy links is to a site that sells bikinis that could best be described as two band-aids and an eye patch and I am not sure how that ties in to the felon theme... Big grin.


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## 1969cj-5

SlobberToofTigger said:


> I am thinking that either through intent or incompetence the felonspy tool is not as accurate as one might like. *To be a bit more direct I would say that the felonspy folks are just randomly putting names next to addresses to create fear and then using this to sell their other products.*


I agree, They have 10 names dropped in a 5 mile area of me. This is incorrect because the places and adresses they name do not exist, they are all cow pastures and bean fields.


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## Viking

Sorry about even posting this site, a few years back it was accurate for our area and I recognized some of the names but now they've really blown it with locations way out in the woods and peoples names that I know don't live in the area. What are they thinking? We don't have people in this area with Chinese names nor do we have such a large Latino population and those that are here I know.


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## SlobberToofTigger

Viking said:


> Sorry about even posting this site.


Bah. Never apologize for posting something. You have probably saved a bunch of people from wasting their money and/or time on these guys. Good job!


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## Viking

Thing is when I went to the site there wasn't one felon mentioned in my area that I knew should be there, that tells how useless the site is.


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## 1969cj-5

SlobberToofTigger said:


> Bah. Never apologize for posting something. You have probably saved a bunch of people from wasting their money and/or time on these guys. Good job!


Word, no worries.


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## Jaspar

My guess is the most dominant gang would take over the prison, raid and pillage the surrounding area for food supplies and weapons. After that they would probably turn their prison into a fortress base of operations. Real life raiders, eventually forming their own army. The rest of the prisoners would either join up with said dominant gang, or get out of dodge and pillage the area on their way out. 

Very scary situation. Small towns will have to form their own militias and most people would move within the vicinity of the town. 

Freaking dark ages. :gaah:


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## BillM

*Usually*



Jaspar said:


> My guess is the most dominant gang would take over the prison, raid and pillage the surrounding area for food supplies and weapons. After that they would probably turn their prison into a fortress base of operations. Real life raiders, eventually forming their own army. The rest of the prisoners would either join up with said dominant gang, or get out of dodge and pillage the area on their way out.
> 
> Very scary situation. Small towns will have to form their own militias and most people would move within the vicinity of the town.
> 
> Freaking dark ages. :gaah:


Usually when a prisoner escapes or is released from prison they go straight home to Mama or the neighborhood they came from.

As for the Gang type guys, they go right back to the Hood they came from. This is where they will live out their life unless re-arrested. They feel safe there and are fish out of the water anywhere else.


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## Emerald

BillM said:


> Usually when a prisoner escapes or is released from prison they go straight home to Mama or the neighborhood they came from.
> 
> As for the Gang type guys, they go right back to the Hood they came from. This is where they will live out their life unless re-arrested. They feel safe there and are fish out of the water anywhere else.


Well now days I would have to agree.. the few that have gotten out headed right for home/friends/family etc.. but in the mass breakdown of society and all being let loose at once? maybe not.
I was looking at the Low's that just went out of business in our area.. that huge 40foot fence that was around their garden center would be mighty nice surrounding my property and from the looks of it.. it may just go all the way around..


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## fatboytactical

I work in a correctional facility and I will tell you there are contingency plans for about every thin including most of the scenarios we talk about here. But in a true end of the world incident the inmates that are deemed not to much of a danger to society will be released. The ones deemed a danger would probably be shot in there cells. I have only heard this policy exists They don't let low levels like me see that stuff. but I am pretty sure they would not just let murderess and rapists go free. That is of coarse that the people in charge follow the police when it happens.


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## DJgang

Sounds good to me. Thanks for input.


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## BillS

There are some possibilities that haven't been discussed yet. Prisoners might be released a little at a time with the less dangerous ones being released first. There are also female prisoners and many of them are just as dangerous as the men. They might send the smallest, youngest, and cutest one to knock on your door after the collapse. If you're a guy you might have a hard time seeing someone like that as a threat.


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## TimB

We're having dinner tonight with my daughter, her fiance, and his parents. I'll try to remember to ask him (father) what, if any, Federal protocols there are for such an event. 

Tim


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## *Andi

TimB said:


> We're having dinner tonight with my daughter, her fiance, and his parents. I'll try to remember to ask him (father) what, if any, Federal protocols there are for such an event.
> 
> Tim


I keep meaning to ask the folks on my side but always forget.

Look forward to an answer.


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## VUnder

I will be ground checking everybody. And yes, that was a period at the end of my previous statement.


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## Jaspar

BillM said:


> Usually when a prisoner escapes or is released from prison they go straight home to Mama or the neighborhood they came from.
> 
> As for the Gang type guys, they go right back to the Hood they came from. This is where they will live out their life unless re-arrested. They feel safe there and are fish out of the water anywhere else.


I know. It's just that i had just watched the Postman before I posted that. :dunno:

But what if it's a shtf scenario and there is no transportation for gang members in far off prisons to get back to their "Hoods". What if their "Hoods" didn't exist anymore?

Your idea is more likely however.


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## Claymore5150

My thoughts kind of go with Jasper's.

If it gets to the point that they have to start releasing ANY prisoners, chances are good that things on the outside have gotten WAY out of hand already.

People will burn and loot when their favorite ball team WINS a big game. If things get bad, there probably won't be much of anything around their old stomping grounds.

Where they would want to go and what they would want to do IF released in a situation like that is probably going to be based on each prisoner's own personal agenda...OR the agenda of their "affiliation"...some just don't think for themselves. 

I do agree that if it gets gnarly around your area you should probably treat anyone you don't know VERY well as a potential threat. I would advise to be wary of EVERYONE who isn't on the same sheet of music as you are. That just makes practical defensive sense.


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## TimB

Well, I didn't get a chance to ask my daughters future F-I-L but did find out in an off-hand way that he and his wife are buying silver for what may come. eep: I thought we were all going to meet at my daughters house after dinner and I would be able to ask him some questions. Alas, as we were getting in the truck I found out everyone was headed home from the restaraunt. :gaah:

Tim


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## BlueShoe

They're going to burn your house down whether they get anything out of it or not. If you have it, taunt them that they can't have it, then you won't either. That's just how it is. If you challenge them with your superior force, you've just threatened their ego. Unless it's just too far out of their way. The best you can do is just safely hold yourself up without trumping their ego. You're just trying to get by just like them, but you can't help them. Just do enough to protect and make it known that you don't intend to out-tough them. You're overloaded with liability already. Wish them well and keep the conversation short. They're masters at putting you on the defensive over something you said. Don't make a suggestion to them. Don't tell them what to do. Don't make a judgement about them. Speak only about your situation and that don't have the means to help anybody.

I tried watching The Postman. It was terrible. What did me in was the group of survivors asking the supposed government employee what the government was going to do about the homeless or to help everybody. _Government save me._


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## gypsysue

I read a tip somewhere else on here last year, that might be a good idea. Buy some clothes from a thrift store that are a size or two too big for you. It'll make you look like you've lost weight since the SHTF, and help convince people that you're barely getting by.

I agree that it will take the right kind of non-threatening, non-judgemental attitude to talk your way past danger with these people.


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## VUnder

There won't be any talking. You will step around the corner and they will be there. May not even know what hit you. That is how they operate inside the walls. Those men act completely on survival. It must do something to them because if they have been inside for over 5 years here, they get a disability check when they get out, because they have been "institutionalized". I am not a guard, but I have a few that worked with me on their days off. Still work with a couple of them. There are some that get crap out of the toilet and lay around and eat it like a candy bar. Some decorate their walls with it. One had a problem pooping on the floor. So, they had him strapped down in a chair with a large baby diaper on. Plus, you had to tie up a guard watching him, instead of being a guard. So, they let him up every few hours, he got up, crapped on the floor again. This time, they took a new diaper and ran hot water on it so it would swell up. Then, they sat him down in that warm, wet diaper, and told him he didn't have to worry about peeing and poopin in his diaper because we already did it for you. Of course, he was made to sit down in that warm diaper, he couldn't see it, thought he was sitting in their poop, and threw a fit. Finally had a total break down, balling and squalling. He got what he needed. Now he is the best prisoner in the joint. I could tell so much more, but I don't know if y'all could handle it.


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## BlueShoe

Crooks use all kinds of ruses. I was sitting in house in a large city one evening after dark and we heard a woman screaming down the street. A relative got up to look out the window to see a black woman moving from house to house crying to be let in. Nobody was letting her in. By the time she got to the house next door we could hear she was crying "rape!" I asked why nobody was opening the door and the relative said to look down the city street about 5 or houses behind her. There was car slowly following her from back there as she went house to house. It was a ploy to get you to open the door. She'd either grab something to steal, pull a gun and rob you or she'd open the door for the rest of the posse to come in and rob you. One street over and two blocks up was a police station. She wasn't asking anyone to call the police. Turns out that was not that uncommon of a ploy. 

I later moved to a small city. Gypsies or Travelers come through town once a year. Well in the 1980s they sent a slim young girl into a downtown bank wearing a dress and no underwear. How do we know? In the Lobby of this downtown bank she started screaming bloody murder and threw herself on the ground as if she was having a seizure and pulled the dress up to her shoulders, screaming the whole time. Not a single person in the bank, male or female, noticed a man who slipped behind the teller windows and emptied out the cash drawers. When the woman stop writhing, people helped her up and she left. They didn't even know how the money left the bank until they viewed the tape. Nobody saw the man at all.


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## RamboMoe

kyhoti said:


> I actually wouldn't mind scoping out a prison as a rather defensible location. After the current residents move out, of course. And I too am more concerned with John Q. Public going rabid than I am about a bunch of criminals. The mob is a waaaaay scarier beast.


Yeah, but a MOB of CRIMINALS? Yikes...

In all honesty though, I doubt they would be let free. Why do that? There was a case of a prison in New Orleans during Katrina that was deserted by the authorities... it was in a documentary, I'm sorry I don't remember the details. Things got hairy though, and I think there was some flooding.

But you have to remember that for the authorities to release all the prisoners would put themselves in immediate danger. And I would think the general public would rather have the prisoners die in there than be allowed to run rampant on the outside during an emergency, so its not like there's a lot of political pressure to let them free.

If you know someone on the inside, I could see the concern.

If anyone has read the Walking Dead comic book, though, they'd know an empty prison could make quite a fortress...


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## tc556guy

TheAnt said:


> Although at first glance this scares the heck out of most of us we should all realize that there is a larger population OUTSIDE of prison that poses a threat than the population currently inside them.


Only a frction of the people you need to worry about are currently behind bars


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## VUnder

When Katrina happened, do you know why they didn't get all the kids and old people out of the city? They were too busy getting all the prisoners out. For each prisoner, there are probably a hundred lawyers ready to sue the state for money on the prisoners behalf. The prisoners are all for it too, they get to go to town, go to court, stay in a jail here and there, so they love bringing up lawsuits. That is why this all happened. There are some bad ones in places like Angola. I am three hundred north of there, and you couldn't get through our town from the Katrina evacuees. They still live around here in FEMA camps, never went back. So bad in the camps that they have to have cops permanently stationed there for all the rapes and killings. Bad one down on Cash Point. During all the rukus, they were kicking doors down around here and robbing at whim, because nobody knew who they were. And, all that is just a very small taste of what it really could be like. My uncle was over a troop of Louisiana State Troopers in a large city, he was sent down there the next day or so after the storm. He told some stories that I will not repeat. One guy I know shot 13 armed bad guys down there, and never heard anything about it. Then, I lived in Southeast TX, and the motels were full of dope and prostitutes from all the evacuees packed up in the motels. Bad, bad bad.


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## Bocephous

I've been a correctional officer for 17 years. It is nearly impossible to reason with a hardened criminal. They are so used to lying all the time and manipulating people that the average citizen wouldn't stand a chance talking their way out of trouble. Paranoid and armed is the best way to be.


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## lotsoflead

gypsysue said:


> I read a tip somewhere else on here last year, that might be a good idea. *Buy some clothes from a thrift store that are a size or two too big for you. It'll make you look like you've lost weight since the SHTF, and help convince people that you're barely getting by*.
> 
> I agree that it will take the right kind of non-threatening, non-judgemental attitude to talk your way past danger with these people.


gypsy, I wouldn't do that these days, it worked during the GD when people were fairly honest and had some compassion for other people. today you need to whollup a begger up side the head with a bat or shove a gun down their throat and make them know that you're no one to mess with.to many people take kindness and compassion as weakness today.


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## DirtyHarry

I find this topic interesting since I just retired after working 25 years in the prison system here in Michigan. I see most of you have gotten information through the government's disinformation campaign designed to make you feel safe. The truth is the prisons could only feed the prisoners for a few days with what food they have on hand. If the power goes out even less as the freezers would shut down when their generators ran out of fuel. Most prisons run on city water so if that shuts down they wouldn't be cooking or drinking. The government is NOT prepared for a total failure. A disturbance of any Significance needs additional outside support. In a SHTF situation that help would not be coming.

I can tell you how things work in the prison. I don't expect an instant SHTF situation unless we have an EMP. The prisoners watch the news. If big cities start rioting as order collapses there will be a point where the prisoners will decide to take matters in their own hands. One of them will find a situation to take out an officer to get their keys. They will then let themselves out. Additionally staff will stop reporting for duty to protect their homes and property. It will go down hill fast. The first few hours the prisoners are loose they will settle scores. How this goes will depend on which prisoners managed to get out first. Any staff that have not managed to get out of the perimeter at this point are finished. There will be masive raping and killing. If staffing levels are too low to maintain the perimeter it will soon be breached. Remember that quite a few prisoner families move to the area where the prisoner is housed. Once they realize the prison cannot be defended they will help breach the perimeter. Once outside the raping and pillaging will begin. After they have armed themselves and stolen everything they want I'm sure many will head for their home towns, looting and killing all the way. I'm sure a good portion of them will remain in the area as long as they can loot and steal. I won't try to describe what 25 years of working with these people has taught me about what is in their heart and mind but I will say this. If you aren't mentally and physically ready to use force, you won't have to worry about it for long.


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## fedorthedog

As the world fails and the cage kickers dont show for work the inmates will be locked down. If some are walking to floors as the system fails they will let their friends out and kill their enemy's, these arnt boy scouts. 

Once out the living will rape pillage and burn. You do not get to prison in this country on your first offense. If you see anyone in prison attire post shtf kill quickly.


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## JoKing

kyhoti said:


> I actually wouldn't mind scoping out a prison as a rather defensible location. After the current residents move out, of course. And I too am more concerned with John Q. Public going rabid than I am about a bunch of criminals. The mob is a waaaaay scarier beast.


I thought of the same thing. A prison would make a bad Ass fort for a number of scenarios, especially if things went primitive.

HEAR YE! HEAR YE!
I HEREBY ANNOUNCE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE POOP (Prepper's Occupation Of Prisons) FOUNDATION!


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## TimB

And on the other hand, as smart as some criminals are, a smart one would take control of the prison and use it as a base of operations. Now that is a scary thought. 

Tim


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## kyhoti

Thanks Tim B. Now I have to develop a plan for taking out a fortified prison full of hardened criminals. As if I don't have enuf that keeps me awake at night  Anybody seen Sherman tanks on ebay lately?


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## SlobberToofTigger

TimB said:


> And on the other hand, as smart as some criminals are, a smart one would take control of the prison and use it as a base of operations. Now that is a scary thought.


I believe that it is reasonable to assume that the smart ones are not in prison. They are all either politicians, lawyers, or in the financial industry. Big grin.


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## JoKing

TimB said:


> And on the other hand, as smart as some criminals are, a smart one would take control of the prison and use it as a base of operations. Now that is a scary thought.
> 
> Tim


They would get hungry pretty quick, though.lol


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## partdeux

SlobberToofTigger said:


> I believe that it is reasonable to assume that the smart ones are not in prison. They are all either politicians, lawyers, or in the financial industry. Big grin.


I don't know about that, I've seen some pretty smart criminals... For whatever reason they chose to use their smarts for nefarious purposes. BUT, it's not the smart ones you have to watch out for, the worst ones would have no moral compass.


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## BlueShoe

DirtyHarry said:


> I find this topic interesting since I just retired after working 25 years in the prison system here in Michigan.


Marquette, Jackson?


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## DirtyHarry

I worked in Ionia and St. Louis. I spent most of my years in Level 4.


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## Emerald

DirtyHarry said:


> I worked in Ionia and St. Louis. I spent most of my years in Level 4.


Ha! I was going to ask if it was Ionia.. They are my biggest concerns post SHTF. I have a couple friends who are/or have been guards there... I think we live way too close to them.. all 5 or is it only 4 now that Deerfield closed?


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## DirtyHarry

I think any prison town is going to get ugly when TSHTF. The comments on here about the bad prisoners being shot in such an event are way off base. It is never going to happen. They will be on the streets sooner or later.


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## fedorthedog

NaeKid said:


> I did a quick-check from my place to some of the nearest correctional facilities and the closest is about 50km. Walking-distance of almost 10hrs according to GoogleMaps. There is another one that is about 60km away and GoogleMaps says walking time is about 11hrs.
> 
> I did a quick 'net search and found that in 1908, President T. Roosevelt wanted the military-boys to train to walk 50 miles. He figured that 3 days would be just fine and that most wouldn't be able to do it in the time allotted, but, some did it in a day.
> 
> http://www.absurdintellectual.com/2...teddy-roosevelt-and-jfk-say-20-hours-or-less/
> 
> *24hrs to walk 50 miles.*
> 
> What kind of shape do you think a prisioner would be in to walk 50 miles? What kind of shape would they be in if they knocked on your door after walking 50 miles? All you would see is someone who is exhausted and could be pushed-over by a feather. How will you know that they have been released from prison, especially if there are no "visible signs" like prison-tattoos or prison-issued clothing? Unless they tell you that they left prison, they will look like someone who was just dragged through the wringer and tossed out to dry.
> 
> I would think that if one knocked on your door, you will be filled with compassion more than loathing .... until you find out why they were in prison in the first place.
> 
> If you haven't watched the movie "Last house on the left", you will not know what I mean by my next statement.
> 
> You will take a person at their word, you will trust that they are as honest as you are. They will gain entrance to your home and you will realize that it is too late. You will be forced to make some serious decisions quickly. What you choose is something that you will have to live with for the rest of your life ...


The A$$holes I arrest who are just out of the joint are in great shape. The get three hot meals and all day to do nothing but work out, and most do. That is prison survival 101. They wont be worn out when they get to you and they know how to actually be violent, not kind of mean, but kill you for real violent.


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## SlobberToofTigger

DirtyHarry said:


> I think any prison town is going to get ugly when TSHTF. The comments on here about the bad prisoners being shot in such an event are way off base. It is never going to happen. They will be on the streets sooner or later.


Irrespective of the policy that any prison might have you are probably right. If the SHTF very few guards would show up for work (either unable or protecting their families, so the escape and takeover scenario is the most likely. And then the violent reintroduction of whoever makes it through the initial prison melee back into society.


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## SlobberToofTigger

fedorthedog said:


> The A$$holes I arrest who are just out of the joint are in great shape. The get three hot meals and all day to do nothing but work out, and most do. That is prison survival 101. They wont be worn out when they get to you and they know how to actually be violent, not kind of mean, but kill you for real violent.


It has always bothered me that we do not require 8 hours of hard physical labor from those in prison. It should not be a restful time for them, but one where they pay for their crime against society with hard labor and regimented discipline.

Good luck and guard your weapon.


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## Emerald

SlobberToofTigger said:


> It has always bothered me that we do not require 8 hours of hard physical labor from those in prison. It should not be a restful time for them, but one where they pay for their crime against society with hard labor and regimented discipline.
> 
> Good luck and guard your weapon.


if it was up to me they would also be in their little cells with only water/bread/beans for dinner and maybe a tiny little square of window to see the sky from.. 
I don't believe that they should have any of the rights that we do as they broke our laws...


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## SlobberToofTigger

Emerald said:


> if it was up to me they would also be in their little cells with only water/bread/beans for dinner and maybe a tiny little square of window to see the sky from..
> I don't believe that they should have any of the rights that we do as they broke our laws...


And that used to be the prevailing practice. We have then swung to our current views of coddling them. Neither has worked very well because we do not address the issues that put them in jail. Essentially a parents job is to turn a wild animal into a human. Some parents do a reasonable job some do not. The folks that have landed in jail are mostly the result of bad parenting and were never trained to be humans. When someone lands in jail we have the opportunity to given them the motivation to turn themselves into humans. Admittedly some will make it others will not but if we could teach even 25% of them how to work and be human we would be greatly improving on where we are now.


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## Padre

*The bad, are corrupted by the worse.*



SlobberToofTigger said:


> Admittedly some will make it others will not but if we could teach even 25% of them how to work and be human we would be greatly improving on where we are now.


The problem is that even if 25% were savable, for the most part putting these 25% in daily close proximity to the 75% and giving them all the rights and freedoms that we do in prison, means that the 75% makes it almost impossible for the 25% to reform.

I pray that prisons have SHTF plans. If you live near one perhaps lobbying your state to think about it pre-SHTF might be a good idea. A slow collapse is a worst case senario with prisons as mass releases (like in CA) will result from the slow bankrupting of the state.

When the world comes collapsing down I would hate to think that some bleeding heart will think that its better to just let them out--I feel some sympathy for prisoners who might have to be left locked in their cells, but we need to remember that they were locked up because civil society needed to be protected from them, and the less law and order exists, the more society and individuals will need to be protected, and the more extreme measures will be justified.


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## md1911

SlobberToofTigger said:


> And that used to be the prevailing practice. We have then swung to our current views of coddling them. Neither has worked very well because we do not address the issues that put them in jail. Essentially a parents job is to turn a wild animal into a human. Some parents do a reasonable job some do not. The folks that have landed in jail are mostly the result of bad parenting and were never trained to be humans. When someone lands in jail we have the opportunity to given them the motivation to turn themselves into humans. Admittedly some will make it others will not but if we could teach even 25% of them how to work and be human we would be greatly improving on where we are now.


I agree. I was watching the discovery channel this weekend. A show about prisons. They said 50% of the crimanls in prison now will be released in 2012 due to overcrowding.


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## momofsix

My dh and I are bothCO's in Colorado . He works in the kitchen. He asked Saturday about how much food storage they have. :::winning he is starting to think as one of us:::: he was told they have 2 days in the facility. And two weeks in the warehouse which is on site. But in a SHTF scenario they would cut rations. He was also looked at by his superior and asked "your not one of those nuts on TV are YOU" lol. Have to laugh he said no for opsec but seriously people all signs point to SHTF. I am no where where I want to be on preps but know we could take care of ourselves. Why do others not want to prepare mind boggles me!


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## SlobberToofTigger

momofsix said:


> Why do others not want to prepare mind boggles me!


Easy answer, we are not programmed to remember bad things that have happened to us. This makes it very hard to have the motivation to prepare for something "bad" when we have no basis for that future bad event. Essentially you and I, and the rest of the bunch on here, are abnormal in our ability to remember bad things and conceive of future bad occurrences.


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## DirtyHarry

If I told you how the prisoners live you would be shocked. You can't even imagine everything they have. If they do any work at all they get paid for it. Many get paid for not working because they are such screw ups no one wants to deal with them. They get paid for going to school. As far as plans for a complete SHTF situation, I can tell you they have no plans. I spent a good portion of my years while working in the prison conducting hearings and working with policy, administrative rules, etc. I even wrote operational procedures. I don't know if the Feds prepare for a total collapse of society or not, but I know the prisons aren't planning for it. But relax. The average state only has around 40,000 prisoners. How much ammo do you have?


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## md1911

DirtyHarry said:


> If I told you how the prisoners live you would be shocked. You can't even imagine everything they have. If they do any work at all they get paid for it. Many get paid for not working because they are such screw ups no one wants to deal with them. They get paid for going to school. As far as plans for a complete SHTF situation, I can tell you they have no plans. I spent a good portion of my years while working in the prison conducting hearings and working with policy, administrative rules, etc. I even wrote operational procedures. I don't know if the Feds prepare for a total collapse of society or not, but I know the prisons aren't planning for it. But relax. The average state only has around 40,000 prisoners. How much ammo do you have?


So do I get what your saying is they have no plan?


----------



## pixieduster

gypsysue said:


> This question was raised in another thread (SHTF shopping trip). The concern was raised by someone who has prisons within 50 miles of their home.
> 
> What about prisons and jails? What will become of the prsioners if TSHTF? Will they be released? Left to starve? ??? :dunno:
> 
> I know that not all prisoners are violent, but what about those that are? There are some pretty hard cases locked away. Imagine if they were all turned loose?


I was in New Orleans working through Hurricane Katrina. The prisons were the worst prepared. The inmates went wild just like the unprepared general population. The corrections officers couldn't stay with no food or basic needs being met. The prisoners WILL get out and run free. So we had no electricity for 6 weeks, water from the tap was sooo gross then overly clorinated to clear it. I thank God to this day my MaMa Bear instinct had me prepare. I never had to go looking for water, food or even toothpaste. I did do a long road trip to stock back up after the first four weeks, not knowing how long till things got better. Anyway..... Yes, the prisoners will be free to roam. In Civil unrest as I saw, people are capable of anything. One realizes how mental preparedness is just as important as the food we eat. : )


----------



## pixieduster

md1911 said:


> So do I get what your saying is they have no plan?


There is NO PLAN! They will perish like everything else that is unprepared. We watched in the front row seat of Katrina. The corrections officers were offered to bring their families to the prison. And they did!! Disasterous. Youtube also has video of it. Take a look.


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## bahramthered

I really thin this depends on the scenario we're discussing. But even in a sh!t scenario I can't I can't picture prisoners as being more or less dangerous than displaced police, soldiers, etc. In fact on that list they strike me as markedly less dangerous, being used to shivs and handguns.

I also think that they're unlikely to be able to survive for very long in a sh!t. As a society prison doesn't encourage back to nature skills. Once the easy resources are expended I would expect most of them to die. Unless of course they happened on someone with the skills they need. I wouldn't want to try to led a group of hardened criminals or have the nightmare job of being an adviser to leader of a posse of gangbangers, but I could see it happening.

Also of course prison is a pressure cooker. Any time you put people into a group and isolate them with lots of boredom you get petty vendettas and crap. All through history you can see examples of this, prisons, ships, harems, and lately even reality TV. I am curious though if a survival situation might be the same, even with the world to roam.

But most people here are obsessing about max security and long term trash. The minimum and some medium security people could be useful. Dropping a guy just because he's wearing a prison jump suit seems wasteful. The guy doing 90 days for being behind on his child support isn't likely to be a hardened criminal.


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## mojo4

I agree bahram, I have no plans to hurt anyone no matter what they look or dress like. I will mind my business and they mind theirs. As long as they don't start trouble we won't have trouble. But......if they are looking for trouble......well......guess they found some!


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## Toffee

mojo4 said:


> I agree bahram, I have no plans to hurt anyone no matter what they look or dress like. I will mind my business and they mind theirs. As long as they don't start trouble we won't have trouble. But......if they are looking for trouble......well......guess they found some!


I have to agree. I visited a local state prison 4 times for a high school class. In all honesty, while I wouldn't necessarily bring them home for dinner, if they showed up on the doorstep begging for food and a little help after it goes belly up, I would strive to treat them the same.

Sometimes people are in the wrong place at the wrong time and they go to prison for life. Or drugs were clouding their judgement and they made a stupid mistake. Or some technicality got them into prison under manslaughter when they were simply protecting their family from random gang violence. I personally know 3 men currently in prison for each one of these things and I would give each something to help them and suggest they continue on their way.


----------



## DirtyHarry

md1911 said:


> So do I get what your saying is they have no plan?


They have plans for a lot of disasters but not a total SHTF situation. They don't think it could happen. As of late the trend in prisons is putting their money and training into mobile, specialized teams that would be sent where needed. In a situation where staff no longer report for duty or transportation isn't possible, their plans evaporate quickly. This thread has primarily been about a total collapse of society. In that situation there is no plan. The prisoners will be on a street near you sooner or later if you live anywhere near a prison.


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## Booger

There are 2 prisons and Several jails within 10 miles of my house. I live just outside Miami. Not worried a bit. I invite all degenerates to my house to try and take what is mine.


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## partdeux

Booger said:


> There are 2 prisons and Several jails within 10 miles of my house. I live just outside Miami. Not worried a bit. I invite all degenerates to my house to try and take what is mine.


you're a whole lot braver than I. I couldn't protect my homestead against a direct and focused attack.


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## SlobberToofTigger

Booger said:


> There are 2 prisons and Several jails within 10 miles of my house. I live just outside Miami. Not worried a bit.


I would have to agree with you that prisons are the least of your worries... Grin.


----------



## bahramthered

DirtyHarry said:


> They have plans for a lot of disasters but not a total SHTF situation. They don't think it could happen. As of late the trend in prisons is putting their money and training into mobile, specialized teams that would be sent where needed. In a situation where staff no longer report for duty or transportation isn't possible, their plans evaporate quickly. This thread has primarily been about a total collapse of society. In that situation there is no plan. The prisoners will be on a street near you sooner or later if you live anywhere near a prison.


Yeah but I think the consensus is that they might make it to the street corner but they're not gonna last long after the bottled water runs out. And with some of these comments I bet not even that long.

Just since it's a convenient reference; How long do you think you'd last the hunger games with no real weapon skills or survival training in an orange jumpsuit?


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## bonniejf2012

My Son is In PRISON, for a NON-Violent Crime; as are MANY of the Prisoners in Low and Medium Security Prisons; He Tells Me that it is COMMON Knowledge that When MARSHALL LAW is Declared, PRISONERS are GASSED!! So IF that is True, None Of You have to WORRY, The Pot Smokers WON'T be asking for Your Help, and The RAPISTS won't be Attacking Your Daughters!! I of Course Can ONLY PRAY that does NOT happen to MY Son, I could Sure Use His HELP in Surviving, as I am SURE Many of the PARENTS of MANY of these "PRISONERS" Could!!


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## BillM

*Urban Ledgend*



bonniejf2012 said:


> My Son is In PRISON, for a NON-Violent Crime; as are MANY of the Prisoners in Low and Medium Security Prisons; He Tells Me that it is COMMON Knowledge that When MARSHALL LAW is Declared, PRISONERS are GASSED!! So IF that is True, None Of You have to WORRY, The Pot Smokers WON'T be asking for Your Help, and The RAPISTS won't be Attacking Your Daughters!! I of Course Can ONLY PRAY that does NOT happen to MY Son, I could Sure Use His HELP in Surviving, as I am SURE Many of the PARENTS of MANY of these "PRISONERS" Could!!


I'm glad to see that urban ledgends exist even in prisions. This is a rumor started by some sadistic correctional officer just for fun. No plan like this exists and if anyone made one they would be subject to criminal conspiracy charges .


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## bahramthered

Only if they take steps to actually doing it.

But hey on ALcatraza Island the guards told prisoners that sharks had been surgically altered to only be able to swim in circles and that they where in the bay. So crazy rumors have been around a long time.


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## Toffee

bahramthered said:


> Only if they take steps to actually doing it.
> 
> But hey on ALcatraza Island the guards told prisoners that sharks had been surgically altered to only be able to swim in circles and that they where in the bay. So crazy rumors have been around a long time.


Yea, but we know that the prisoners didn't believe that, since some of them escaped.


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## SlobberToofTigger

bahramthered said:


> Only if they take steps to actually doing it.
> 
> But hey on ALcatraza Island the guards told prisoners that sharks had been surgically altered to only be able to swim in circles and that they where in the bay. So crazy rumors have been around a long time.


No lasers? No wonder the prisoners kept trying to escape... Grin.


----------



## SlobberToofTigger

bonniejf2012 said:


> My Son is In PRISON, for a NON-Violent Crime; as are MANY of the Prisoners in Low and Medium Security Prisons; He Tells Me that it is COMMON Knowledge that When MARSHALL LAW is Declared, PRISONERS are GASSED!! So IF that is True, None Of You have to WORRY, The Pot Smokers WON'T be asking for Your Help, and The RAPISTS won't be Attacking Your Daughters!! I of Course Can ONLY PRAY that does NOT happen to MY Son, I could Sure Use His HELP in Surviving, as I am SURE Many of the PARENTS of MANY of these "PRISONERS" Could!!


I am sorry to hear that your son made very bad choices and put himself in prison. Hopefully he will be one of the 48% (1) who learn from his mistake and make good choices when he is released.

Because you need his help I thought it worth while to look around and help you figure out what factors contribute to keeping people out of jail. It seems that the most significant factor is age. And assuming that he went in for drug charges it looks like you are in for a hard time as they have one of the greatest chances of Recidivism (2). Essentialy here is what you have working against you:
"Within 3 years of their release from prison, about 7
in 10 nonviolent releasees were rearrested for a new
crime; nearly half were reconvicted; and more than
a quarter were returned to prison"

I reached out to some of my friends in the business and asked them what you could do as a mom to help your son when he is released. Essentially they said that if he does not want your help then he is very likely to be back in. But if he truly is looking for assistance then your support (emotional not financial) and using your network of friends to help him find a job will provide the best possible situation.

Good luck. And as another poster said there is no plan to gas medium and low security prisoners it is a rumor.

(1) http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/pnoesp.pdf
(2) http://www.vcsc.virginia.gov/Jun_10...violent Offender Risk Assessment HANDOUTS.pdf


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## lotsoflead

bonniejf2012 said:


> My Son is In PRISON, for a NON-Violent Crime; as are MANY of the Prisoners in Low and Medium Security Prisons; He Tells Me that it is COMMON Knowledge that When MARSHALL LAW is Declared, PRISONERS are GASSED!! So IF that is True, None Of You have to WORRY, The Pot Smokers WON'T be asking for Your Help, and The RAPISTS won't be Attacking Your Daughters!! I of Course Can ONLY PRAY that does NOT happen to MY Son, I could Sure Use His HELP in Surviving, as I am SURE Many of the PARENTS of MANY of these "PRISONERS" Could!!


 I don't think prisoners will or can be gassed, that would be like taking a 5 yr sentence and changing it to the death penality without a trial. maybe the public has no use for prisoners, but remember everyone of them has friends and family not in prison., for every prisoner gassed, you may just PO 200 more people.


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## TheRam27

they are locked into the system. hopefully the smart ones will start some type of riot.


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## chris88idaho

goatlady said:


> horseman, you might want to re-think your reasoning. If/when the prison guards leave their posts or do not show up for work why would you think they would release the prisoners who they have been guarding and watching, and knowing for years? Those guards live in the vacinity of the prison as do their families, and I guarantee you those guards do NOT want those men turned loose in their family neighborhoods especially the rapists and murderers and child abusers. There really is NO safe or sane solution, it will happen as it happens.


I worked for about a year at a medium security facility prison in N.C. (I hated every minute of it/never been happier than when I gave my notice). When I walked the floor of "A Pod", the inmate to guard ratio was 250 to Me (one can of pepperspray) plus one guard in the control room. The only thing that keeps the prisoners off the wire and out of your living room is the guy in the tower with a rifle. They behave because they don't want to loose phone and canteen rights. If you paint the picture of no power, no food resupply, less and less guards showing up for their shift, cameras off line, and my family at home unprotected... I couldn't promise how long I would choose to stand there and be a speed bump on their one way road to freedom.


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## urbanprepper

Long time reader, first time poster.

So, those of you around a prison or jail, does anyone have ideas of searching these at any point?

I live in an urban area (5-6 millions people in the area) and have plans to bug out to a smaller area, all of my bug out routes i have specifically made them to go near a few key places i would like to search (at least have the option to search/barter whatever the case may be)

Does anyone else have thoughts about this?


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## SlobberToofTigger

urbanprepper said:


> Long time reader, first time poster.
> 
> So, those of you around a prison or jail, does anyone have ideas of searching these at any point?
> 
> I live in an urban area (5-6 millions people in the area) and have plans to bug out to a smaller area, all of my bug out routes i have specifically made them to go near a few key places i would like to search (at least have the option to search/barter whatever the case may be)
> 
> Does anyone else have thoughts about this?


If you knew where their external supply warehouse was located yes. But otherwise I want nothing to do with them.


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## chris88idaho

Would stay on grid square a way from a prion. Safer to search rail cars. Prison guns are crap w/ little ammo, inmates would have eaten all the food. Just too dangerous


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## Ration-AL

do you guys think someone would let them out in a SHTF case? or do you think they would just be left there to rot? would the electronic gates even work?
what would a prison have that would be worth going in for, when a hospital or food warehouse would have the same things but a lower potential risk attached to it in my view?

i would say no, no reason to go to a prison, and didn't any of you guys play fallout3? the prison will become a stronghold for a gang that will pillage the local communities and wreak havoc....:nuts:


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## chris88idaho

Once the power goes out, cameras are off, food starts to run out, less and less guards show up for duty. the inmates would be able to taste freedom. What guards remained would be a speed bump on the inmates road to freedom. One way or another just a matter of time before they all come pouring out of their looking to make up for some lost time


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## ContinualHarvest

I wonder if there is a failsafe that allows the doors to open during an emergency. I'd want to be as far as possible from any prison.


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## chris88idaho

There is no such fail safe. I having worked at a prison for about a year, I never saw any contingency plan for the end of the world, nuclear war, or plague. Simple fact is, fences slow inmates down and the guy with a rifle in the tower make them think twice before trying.


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## lotsoflead

ContinualHarvest said:


> I wonder if there is a failsafe that allows the doors to open during an emergency. I'd want to be as far as possible from any prison.


 don't lump them all in one basket, there are some prisoners that will do more for you than your neighbors. I've hired a lot of locals over the yrs and once I hired a parolee and he turned out to be the best worke and the most reliable worker that I ever had.


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## SlobberToofTigger

ContinualHarvest said:


> I wonder if there is a failsafe that allows the doors to open during an emergency. I'd want to be as far as possible from any prison.


It is my understanding, from chatting with the folks that run prisons, in an electrical outage situation they move to manual operation.


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## chris88idaho

kyhoti said:


> Thanks Tim B. Now I have to develop a plan for taking out a fortified prison full of hardened criminals. As if I don't have enuf that keeps me awake at night  Anybody seen Sherman tanks on ebay lately?


No point prepping any further if you intend to commit suicide..,


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## 4wdCountry

SlobberToofTigger said:


> It is my understanding, from chatting with the folks that run prisons, in an electrical outage situation they move to manual operation.


Correct!
Our local medium sized facility has backup keys for ALL doors in case all the other preparations fail. State requires it. The rumor of gassing prisoners is hogwash... wouldn't happen here. Any serious offenders would be moved to a safe, secure location in or out of state under HEAVY security if things went south here. Law enforcement might set up for employees' families to stay in a secured area, if it got that bad. The people I know wouldn't abandon their posts as long as their family was safe.
Oh... by the way, I would not plan on assaulting a prison for supplies. High risk/low reward proposition. There just ain't much there that anyone on the outside would want or could use, unless you like wearing striped clothes that aren't very well insulated.


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## faithmarie

We live NEAR TWO count em 2 high security prisons. One is for the criminally insane ... I think. Oh my......


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## lotsoflead

faithmarie said:


> We live NEAR TWO count em 2 high security prisons. One is for the criminally insane ... I think. Oh my......


you must mean the two in Fishkill just off I-84, you're forgetting Green Haven,Coxsackie,Wallkill, and the two up near Hudson, plus Sing Sing. I'd say that there are about 10 thousand prisoners locked up within 25 miles of us. Don't you just love NY.


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## faithmarie

AHHHHHHHHH ! forgot about those. Lions and tigers and bears ... oh my....... and don't forget the lovely Indian Point...


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## chris88idaho

Good luck.


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## VUnder

When Katrina happened, the prisoners were the first that the state moved. That is why all the school buses weren't used to get the sick and elderly free persons out of New Orleans. The state was far more worried about the prisoners, because there are many lawyers waiting to sue the state every day on the prisoners behalf. Bad places full of bad people. I imagine they will just shoot the hard timers and let the non violent offenders go free. I will ask a fellow about it today, he just retired from the prison.


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## Ration-AL

4wdCountry said:


> Correct!
> The people I know wouldn't abandon their posts as long as their family was safe.


if it all went down tomorrow and it was questionable if their families were safe and it came down to either leaving the prisoners unattended in their cells or cutting them loose, which way do you think it would fall?

it sounds like there is no automatic release system if all fails a person with a key needs to manually do it......i just wonder what would happen in the case of there was nowhere else to move the prisoners because it's a nation-wide thing and the guards families were in questionable danger what would happen...

is there some sort of protocol for if all else fails or is it such a thing they don't really plan for as who sanely plans for an asteroid impact or something of that nature? will it simply be left upto who's on duty that day and how he's feeling in that given moment?


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## platoon62

Got some info yesterday from FCI Oakdale. Talked to a pretty senior guy. There is 2 large compounds there. One is low security and one is High security to house illegals that have committed another crime. This is the plan. In the event of something catastrophic, like flooding, tornado, riots, fire, etc., They had yesterday, only 3 additional days food ( with orders to ration if it comes to that), enough diesel on site to run on minimums for 2-3 weeks. All FCI's have have a small municipal airstrip nearby where they can fly in reinforcements, food, other supplies in and fly prisoners and families out of the area. Families could be evacuated if necessary if the guards have to evacuate prisoners as well. They had a riot there and they burnt down all of the buildings and they can recall all guards, have a swat team, and have access to tear gas. In a systemic WTSHTF scenario they don't have a plan unless it's over his head. It was an interesting trip I made. Learned and saw a lot. Apparently, USDA guy checks the quality of their food and he rejected some frozen hamburger meat. It was sent to a frozen meat warehouse that may supply precooked 'Whopper' party's to BK. anyway, I digress, he said that there is no way, no how, they are not going to be under control. After having talked to him, I am sure that he and the other guards are going to do whatever is necessary for them to not be out of control. Ever. I think in a WTSHTF scenario they will not be just let go. I think they will be locked down and left. My personal opinion.


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## BillM

In an absolutly catrostrophic situation , when you can no longer maintain their incarseration in a humain manner, I would turn then loose !


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## WatchUr6

BillM said:


> In an absolutly catrostrophic situation , when you can no longer maintain their incarseration in a humain manner, I would turn then loose !


You must not live near a prison. If you do, I'm sure they will just pass by your house and not pay you a visit. What do you think they will do to you if they know there are no police to stop them? Do you really want to take that chance?


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## mojo4

Yep go ahead bill, betcha those sweetpea inmates catch up to you before you make it to your car and start their preps with your stuff!! And yes, I did work in a jail for 2 years so I know inmates and even the supposed nice ones would cut your throat with a rusty razor for .50 cents. And that's before TSHTF so feel free to stop by and say hi or let the little darlings free but at least brings the fava beans and a nice chianti cause you don't want then to wash down your liver with jailhouse hooch!! Demand they eat your liver with some class!!


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## BillM

*I Refuse*



mojo4 said:


> Yep go ahead bill, betcha those sweetpea inmates catch up to you before you make it to your car and start their preps with your stuff!! And yes, I did work in a jail for 2 years so I know inmates and even the supposed nice ones would cut your throat with a rusty razor for .50 cents. And that's before TSHTF so feel free to stop by and say hi or let the little darlings free but at least brings the fava beans and a nice chianti cause you don't want then to wash down your liver with jailhouse hooch!! Demand they eat your liver with some class!!


I am a retired Deputy Sheriff. I don't have any illusions about the prisoners . I put some of those people in there. Make no mistake, I do not underestimate what they are capable of doing. I just refuse to become worse than they are. I would never want anyone to be able to say that they wouldn't underestimate what I would do! Leaving someone to starve in a cell or summariarly executing them is wrong. Besides , if this situation occurs, you had better fear every stranger that comes to your door.


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## mojo4

Well bill you keep contradicting yourself. You say to be wary of every stranger at the door but you are unwilling to deal with the jailhouse scum? I'm not talking about the clown doing 6 months for drunk driving or selling a dimebag of weed but the hardcore gangster prisoners. Somebody has to deal with them and make the tough choices and it sounds like you aren't willing. For me personally I can't stand the idea of jailing people for 50 years or more. If you are so rotten that you need to be caged for more than 10 years apparently you can't get along with the program so executions oughtta be mandatory. People are not gonna get better after decades in a cage and to think of releasing these wolves back into society is pure madness. So yes, I hope they don't get released and the people in charge of prisons are willing to make the right choice.


----------



## BillM

*There is*



mojo4 said:


> Well bill you keep contradicting yourself. You say to be wary of every stranger at the door but you are unwilling to deal with the jailhouse scum? I'm not talking about the clown doing 6 months for drunk driving or selling a dimebag of weed but the hardcore gangster prisoners. Somebody has to deal with them and make the tough choices and it sounds like you aren't willing. For me personally I can't stand the idea of jailing people for 50 years or more. If you are so rotten that you need to be caged for more than 10 years apparently you can't get along with the program so executions oughtta be mandatory. People are not gonna get better after decades in a cage and to think of releasing these wolves back into society is pure madness. So yes, I hope they don't get released and the people in charge of prisons are willing to make the right choice.


There is a difference in shooting an intruder or useing deadly force in self defence and murder.

Maybe you are willing to make the tough choices regarding prisoners. You would not be the first. The NAZI's had a final solution to deal with the people they believed to be a threat. You are just 64 years too late to join them .


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## WatchUr6

BillM said:


> There is a difference in shooting an intruder or useing deadly force in self defence and murder.
> 
> Maybe you are willing to make the tough choices regarding prisoners. You would not be the first. The NAZI's had a final solution to deal with the people they believed to be a threat. You are just 64 years too late to join them .


There is also is a difference between the INNOCENT Jewish families that were rounded up and murderers, rapists, child molesters (these animals are predators!!!!!) I would never put my wife and kids at risk by letting these animals loose.


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## BlueShoe

Everybody always ignores the trade unionists, the intellectuals, the homosexuals, etc., etc. when speaking of "The Holocaust". It became only about European Jews to history.


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## chris88idaho

Really? Always back to the Nazies.. )-:
Every single Jew wasn't already in prison for murder and rape before hitler and himmler started the final solution. Could we put a little thought into our posts before we drop the Nazi bomb? Please?

Bad enough the 3rd rich is every other show on the history channel, you'd think they won the damn war based on our obsession with them.


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## UncleJoe

This thread, starting at post #132, has begun to drift into attack mode. Let's get it back on track so we won't have to lock it up. Thanks folks.


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## WatchUr6

UncleJoe said:


> This thread, starting at post #132, has begun to drift into attack mode. Let's get it back on track so we won't have to lock it up. Thanks folks.


Agreed. The point I was getting to was that I don't want to deal with more dangerous people than I absolutely need to.


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## BillM

Look , I'm not trying to attack anyone . I'm just making a point that if you are not carefull, you can quickly become as bad or worse than the people you are trying to protect your wife and children from. No one has the right to play God with the lives of others , even prisoners.


----------



## ContinualHarvest

chris88idaho said:


> Really? Always back to the Nazies.. )-:
> Every single Jew wasn't already in prison for murder and rape before hitler and himmler started the final solution. Could we put a little thought into our posts before we drop the Nazi bomb? Please?
> 
> Bad enough the 3rd rich is every other show on the history channel, you'd think they won the damn war based on our obsession with them.


From Wikipedia...

Godwin's law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies[1][2]) is an observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990[2] that has become an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[2][3] In other words, Godwin observed that, given enough time, in any online discussion-regardless of topic or scope-someone inevitably makes some comparison to Hitler and the Nazis.
Godwin's law is often cited in online discussions as a deterrent against the use of arguments in the widespread Reductio ad Hitlerum form.[4] The rule does not make any statement about whether any particular reference or comparison to Adolf Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that the likelihood of such a reference or comparison arising increases as the discussion progresses. Precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.[5]
Although in one of its early forms Godwin's law referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions,[6] the law is now often applied to any threaded online discussion, such as forums, chat rooms and blog comment threads, and has been invoked for the inappropriate use of Nazi analogies in articles or speeches.[7]


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## chris88idaho

Ok. Regardless of the actions in fascist Germany/ Italy, imperial Japan, or for that matter communist Russia during world war 2... I just assume steer clear of correctional facilities and and their formal guests during times of crisis. 

I have no doubt one in a million was wrongly accused or one in a thousand is a real teddy bear once you get to know them. But ya know what? I am not going to take the time to figure it out if a guy in an orange jump suit knocks on my door. I imagine in a post collapse world where convicted murderers walk free there maybe a little bit of a gray area for those who shoot first and ask questions later when defending their home and family.

Ya know, I could be wrong on this. But how much can a dead father do for his family? I know if I make a stupid decision and get myself killed, my family is pretty much screwed in the long run. So, I guess I am ok with making a couple morally questionable decisions in regards to dealing with the bad people. 

In conclusion, if you bust out of prison and need a hug you ought to stay just out side the effective rage of a .300 mag when strolling past my house.


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## SlobberToofTigger

chris88idaho said:


> In conclusion, if you bust out of prison and need a hug you ought to stay just out side the effective rage of a .300 mag when strolling past my house.


This is the sort of logic I cannot argue with.


----------



## Al-Thi'b

It all really depends on location, the disaster, size of the disaster, ease of access to the facilities in question, ease of evacuation of facilities in question, state government as well as state/local and civilian officials. 

We saw with Katrina they did evacuate some Jails and Prisons, however if evacuating a prison or even a nursing home for that matter becomes too great of a risk to the lives of rescuers or they could be used elsewhere to save "better citizens", they'll leave them to die. Staff has walked out and left many detained or incapacitated people simply because they thought their own lives were at risk or at least thought there was a chance their own lives were at risk. That's not to say if something really gruesome were happening in the world, one prison guards with an ounce of care or regard for another humans life(which is rare for a guards to say the least) and release the min-security blocks and detain the dangerous ones or panic and release them all. 

However IMO it's just very hard to guess or speculate at something with so many factors weighing-in such as this.:dunno:


----------



## BillS

I think it would be better if the criminals were killed and not turned loose. And not left alone inside to starve or die of thirst.

What would you do if you see a number of prisoners coming to your property? Do you shoot first and ask questions later?


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## lazydaisy67

How you gonna know if they're prisoners? I doubt they'd wear their prison uniforms.


----------



## BillS

lazydaisy67 said:


> How you gonna know if they're prisoners? I doubt they'd wear their prison uniforms.


It's not that hard. You see a group of men together with gang tattoos who are muscular and in their 20s and 30s and that pretty much fits the profile. Besides the fact that they'd be constantly looking around because they don't know the area.


----------



## chris88idaho

BillS said:


> I think it would be better if the criminals were killed and not turned loose. And not left alone inside to starve or die of thirst.
> 
> What would you do if you see a number of prisoners coming to your property? Do you shoot first and ask questions later?


I would no question. I pay taxes for people to handle them. If the guards quit and the inmates are in my back yards. I'll handle it


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## BillM

Aparentlly it's going to be a very dangerous world with no rules if you can get shot for walking through someone's neighborhood with a tatoo or a group of people?

If you are in prison, it will be ok to just kill all the prisoners because of what they might do?

We are going to shoot anyone within the range of a 300 magnum because we don't like their looks ?

If a stranger steps in my yard , I can just kill him ?

If you write this kind of stuff, how can you then be critical about the goverment wondering if you might pose a danger to sociaty?

You should be able to defend yourself and your family but there have to be some rules or we will become the problem insted of the solution.


----------



## chris88idaho

Ever been to north idaho? If I went and walked through my neighbors back yard tonight you'd never see another post from me again.

In a post collapse word I reckon there may be more than a couple people with their finger on the trigger and a little sketchy about folks they don't know poking around their property.

I don't advocate violence, nor do I ever hope to harm anyone. However, I put my family and their safety as number #1. The world is gonna get stupid lets not sugarcoat it. You wanna take the moral high ground in a hypothetical conversation, good for you. 

I am not saying I can fight off the world from my front porch, but if you come here looking to harm my family or take our stuff: you'd better be ready.


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## chris88idaho

I got up twice while I was typing that because my motion light in the backyard came on. (bats)


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## mojo4

Well since bill called me a nazi I've rethought my position. I haven't changed it. People are in prison for a reason. They are violent and predatory in peaceful times so imagine how they will behave when there is no law and order? Why release predators that were difficult to catch when there is law and order to a society that has broken down. That's just like adding gas to a fire. But that's my opinion and agree or not I'm no nazi. I have no plans to round up any innocents and exterminate them. And bill you owe me an apology!


----------



## bahramthered

What I find fascinating on this board is so many people claiming that in a post apocalypse world they'd be willing to drop people and at the same time complaining about people who did it before the collapse. Or even had reasons you would approve of. 

I also find it interesting so many of you assume that they'll be automatically dangerous. Right now get or plead to manslaughter, you can get 15-30. Good behavior, get a degree, find jebus, and cry in front of the parole board you can get out in 7. Think about that the next time you stroll around the mall. You could be talking to an killer and never know.


----------



## BillM

*Apology*



mojo4 said:


> Well since bill called me a nazi I've rethought my position. I haven't changed it. People are in prison for a reason. They are violent and predatory in peaceful times so imagine how they will behave when there is no law and order? Why release predators that were difficult to catch when there is law and order to a society that has broken down. That's just like adding gas to a fire. But that's my opinion and agree or not I'm no nazi. I have no plans to round up any innocents and exterminate them. And bill you owe me an apology!


I don't owe anyone an apology. I made an observation regarding how the NAZI's chose to exterminate people whom they deemed to be a threat to the public and/or their way of life. They gassed the insane, criminals in prison, Jews, Slavs, homosexuals Gyptys, and any other non-Ayrian. They did this with no trial or reason other than they thought it best for the Ayrian race.
I did not call anyone a NAZI on this forum but if the Swasticka fits , by all means wear it!


----------



## BillS

BillM said:


> Aparentlly it's going to be a very dangerous world with no rules if you can get shot for walking through someone's neighborhood with a tatoo or a group of people?
> 
> If you are in prison, it will be ok to just kill all the prisoners because of what they might do?
> 
> If you write this kind of stuff, how can you then be critical about the goverment wondering if you might pose a danger to sociaty?


You're way off base. You have no right to judge me or to condemn me for bringing up the *question*.

I'm really offended that you falsely accuse me of saying it's OK to kill prisoners who come into my *neighborhood*. What I questioned is whether or not you should shoot them when they come on your *property*. That's not the same thing and I resent the slander to my character. Even then I didn't say I would do that. I just posed the question.

Prisoners who've committed rapes or murders should be killed rather than turned loose on society. Anybody else who's dangerous should be killed too. Past behavior is not only a good predictor of future behavior but execution is what a lot of them should've gotten in the first place. So yes, after it hits the fan the guards should take out any prisoner that's dangerous. I don't have a problem with that. I fail to see that somehow I'm lacking in human compassion or I've somehow lost the right to do or say certain things because I believe that.

You know, if you can't discuss this rationally and politely you should just stay away from this topic.


----------



## FatTire

Past behaviors predicting future behaviors is only good as to general trends, not to specific individuals.

Case in point, over a decade ago my younger brother got busted for cultivation of marijuana and possession of stolen property. Two felonies at the time. He served his time, paid his fines, and is now a doting father, and a teacher.

Is this the norm? No. But it's not as rare as we are led to believe by a fearmongering media.

Those 'scum' in prison are also human beings, flawed just like the rest of us, and deserve to live.


----------



## BillM

*No one*



BillS said:


> You're way off base. You have no right to judge me or to condemn me for bringing up the *question*.
> 
> I'm really offended that you falsely accuse me of saying it's OK to kill prisoners who come into my *neighborhood*. What I questioned is whether or not you should shoot them when they come on your *property*. That's not the same thing and I resent the slander to my character. Even then I didn't say I would do that. I just posed the question.
> 
> Prisoners who've committed rapes or murders should be killed rather than turned loose on society. Anybody else who's dangerous should be killed too. Past behavior is not only a good predictor of future behavior but execution is what a lot of them should've gotten in the first place. So yes, after it hits the fan the guards should take out any prisoner that's dangerous. I don't have a problem with that. I fail to see that somehow I'm lacking in human compassion or I've somehow lost the right to do or say certain things because I believe that.
> 
> You know, if you can't discuss this rationally and politely you should just stay away from this topic.


Bill, no one accused you of anything.

The fact is that the Killing of prisoners with out due prossess is illegal in almost every country in the world and I would not want to live in a counrty where that was accepted as a good thing. You have a right to your oppinion but I don't think you have the right to tell me I have to get in line behind you or get off the topic.

I personally put a lot of people in prison but a judge and jury decided their fate not a correctional officer.

I carryed a gun for a living for a damn long time and never thought it gave me the right to use it except in defence of my life or the life of another. The threat had to be emminate. That means right now and reasonable. That means what a Grand Juror would do under tha same circumstance. He needed to cause me to be in fear of my life! That's my standard for pulling that trigger . Yours is much lower .


----------



## BillM

*I agree*



FatTire said:


> Past behaviors predicting future behaviors is only good as to general trends, not to specific individuals.
> 
> Case in point, over a decade ago my younger brother got busted for cultivation of marijuana and possession of stolen property. Two felonies at the time. He served his time, paid his fines, and is now a doting father, and a teacher.
> 
> Is this the norm? No. But it's not as rare as we are led to believe by a fearmongering media.
> 
> Those 'scum' in prison are also human beings, flawed just like the rest of us, and deserve to live.


Everyone needs to ask there self, have I ever done anything I could have gone to prison for if I had been caught and arrested?

Most people would honestly have to answer this question in the affermative.

Looks like we are of like mind on this .

Imagine that ? ?


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## torquemada

Buddy of mine is a co he said the plan they had for wshtf is they have no plan. Theynaremto man there posts till help arrives. It's scary they have no plan for this.


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## FatTire

BillM said:


> Everyone needs to ask there self, have I ever done anything I could have gone to prison for if I had been caught and arrested?
> 
> Most people would honestly have to answer this question in the affermative.
> 
> Looks like we are of like mind on this .
> 
> Imagine that ? ?


See I knew you'd come round to my way of thinking sooner or later bud


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## chris88idaho

Ok I have reread a few of my posts and they seem a little hostile. I was a correctional officer and quit because I couldn't stand to be in the same room with them. (70% serving life or an equal scentence) next job was the army and 2 combat tours later I guess I come to a few strange conclusions form time to time. 

I survived overseas by applying violence of action first and decisively. Basically I shot my way home. When thing do fall apart, I hope it is not as bad as it was over there or a lot of bleeding hearts are in for a big surprise. Further, no one can say for sure what they are gonna do when a guy is in their sites. It's a lot harder to do than talking about it, and the memories and guilt never go away.

I am never looking to hurt anyone. And I am not a nazi because I have a no nonsense approach to protecting my family.


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## BillM

*I also*



chris88idaho said:


> Ok I have reread a few of my posts and they seem a little hostile. I was a correctional officer and quit because I couldn't stand to be in the same room with them. (70% serving life or an equal scentence) next job was the army and 2 combat tours later I guess I come to a few strange conclusions form time to time.
> 
> I survived overseas by applying violence of action first and decisively. Basically I shot my way home. When thing do fall apart, I hope it is not as bad as it was over there or a lot of bleeding hearts are in for a big surprise. Further, no one can say for sure what they are gonna do when a guy is in their sites. It's a lot harder to do than talking about it, and the memories and guilt never go away.
> 
> I am never looking to hurt anyone. And I am not a nazi because I have a no nonsense approach to protecting my family.


I understand compleatly. I have a no nonsence attitude regarding protecting my famiely. I was a Deputy Sheriff and also dealt with some real bad people. I saw a lot of officers who allowed the bad guys to shape their attitudes to a point where they were about to cross the line and become as bad as the people they were arresting. I swore to myself that i would quit before I let that happen to me. I never crossed the line and i am glad I didn't. You sound like a good guy to me. Never let the people or situations you have to deal with now or in the future change you. If TSHTF , the world is going to need all the good guys that it can get.


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## jsriley5

Well I almost hate to stir this pot anymore but what the heck gotta talk about somthing right? 

So having a real good idea that there is no real plan for dealing with "offenders" when they can no longer be fed and cared for by the state/gov. And yeah I heard the rumors about the bad ones being shot in their cells all you need for proof of that being a lie is to see the ammo on hand in the arms room. They barely have enough on hand for training let alone enough to shoot several thousand "offenders", and "gassing " takes a bit more planning and prep if it was a plan there would have to be some renovations put in to make it feasible, at least gassing as the State looks at it. 

Now I can fully understand the thoughts and feelings of a LEO who has gone over his use of force continuum a multitude of times and has his way of justifying his use of lethal force all clearly outlined in his mind. But I think there is a gap in there. I have Both worked the street side sending or trying to send bad guys to jail and prison, And I have spent a whole lot more time dealing with the ones that finally make it through the broken legal system. As a correction Officer the job is to keep society safe by keeping the "offenders" inside using WHATEVER force is minimally needed to accomplish this up to and including lethal force. Now I can tell you for sure that there are very few officers that would actually pull the trigger due to low pay and other administrative reasons a majority of corrections officers are either hug a thugs or as bad as the offenders they are coraling. So even if there was adequate ammo or gas available. I doubt very seriously that there will be the amount needed of the right kinds of staff to make and carry out a final decision to "protect society" (is there any society left at thaat point? ) And keep in mind as well I am discussing based on my time in Level 4 facilities I never worked in lesser facilities though other than the very lowest I would lump into this. So once you cant feed them or maintain even a minimum security to keep them inside I would see the mandate of a corrctions officer to Terminate Offenders in order to fullfill their duty. But I doubt very seriously that it would be done even if the infrastructure were provided to do so. 
So that leaves the rest of us to consider whether we just stick to our "regular" plans for dealing with a world gone crazy or to pre-empt by destroying a Goodly number of Threats all at one time. I admit to having such a plan but doubt very seriously if it is even feasible given time constraints neccesary to do the deed before the cats out of the bag. Folks seem to think that it is as easy as just leaving them in their cells like these cells are some kind of magic escape proof box that they could never get out of. That couldn't be farther from the truth. IF it weren't for officers constantly patrolling watching and keeping them from destroying their little boxes they would be able to open them in just a few hours. Even with the officers there it takes a good bit of maintenance and up keep repairing the damages done that the officers still manage to miss. So even if the thought was to abandon them, within a day they would be loose and even if there was still a guy on the perimeter with a gun and the will to use it he'd not be likely to get more than a dozen before he either ran out of ammo or was overran or forced to retreat ahead of the blood thirsty mob. So I doubt my plans could be carried out before they self free and are loose. As for shooting anyone in a jumpsuit at least in my state the PTB seemed to think it was a good idea to allow them regular clothes to wear in their "off Time" so I doubt they will be leaving in jumpsuits and if they do how far really are they gonna go before they find clothes more to their liking. Some will likely ;head out to "home" wherever it is and the lack of transport will not be an issue for them as they will steal anything that will still move to get them on their way and they will kill anyone that tries to stop them. They will take out the grudge against society against any and all that they come in contact with irregaurdless of need or whether provoked . Those that don't have the grudge, and there are some, will still seek to go about whatever forms of pleasure they indulged in before they were incarcerated whether its arson, murder, drugs, children. If they can't find what they are looking for such as drugs they will rampage looking for it and likely not beleive anyone they run over who says they don't have it as that is inconceivable to them. There are a few who with a bit of infrastructure would likely be productive helpful and decent, but lacking that infrastructure those too will go back to making the excuse that they had to do what they had to do and will go back to stealing by snek or by force just like they did before because there is no EASY way to get by.

What is the answer I don't have it unless it would be to start doing what needs to be done with criminals now before the situation arises. After will almost certainly be too late as the those that should don't have a plan and those that do will have so much to do they will likely miss their oportunity. 

So sorry I don't offer any answers just more food for thought for you to use in your own personal ways in your own personal planning.

Yeah that was alot of nothing a hodge podge of my own thoughts and thinking on the subject.


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## The_Blob

I think those of us thinking about this already have a *final solution* contingency in place or at least in the planning stages... 

And that's all I'll say about *that*.


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## jsriley5

yeah I imagine so expecially after all the discussion here already suppose it served mostly to allow me to vent some stuff I"ve been dwelling on for a while.


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## Resto

torquemada said:


> Buddy of mine is a co he said the plan they had for wshtf is they have no plan. Theynaremto man there posts till help arrives. It's scary they have no plan for this.


I know this is a 5 month old post but I think people need to know.
COs are too low on the totem pole to know the plan for dealing with inmates post SHTF. This is the seaquence of events. 1. The National Guard will take over the prison. 2. All inmates that are on "Lock Down" will be executed. 3. The rest of the inmates will be released on thier own reconesence.

That info came from a high ranking official in AZ DOC.

I would guess that Federal Prisons would be taken over by the Military and the same seaquence of events would take place.

So based on what I have been told if you have any Correction Facilitys within 75 miles from your BIL or BOL you will have a S#!T STORM HERD. All the Gangs will settle scores as soon as they are out the gate and then turn toword town WROL. They will have no mercy. I asked my friend in DOC because there are 3 Prisons 18-20 miles from my house and the busses that transport inmates take different routes each time. Last week on my way home from work I followed a prison bus all the way to my house and it kept going south. That bus was 5 miles to far to the east of the road south to the prison. How do you think I felt? Im gonna need alot more ammo.


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## UncleJoe

The_Blob said:


> And that's all I'll say about *that*.


Thank You Forrest.


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## bucketlist

NaeKid said:


> ...If you haven't watched the movie "Last house on the left", you will not know what I mean by my next statement. ...


That movie should be required watching for anyone trying to decide how they would handle visitors.


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## jsriley5

Well I don't know about using fictional movies for training aids. YOu can find the movies about the Guys sent to prison wrongfully to and they'd have you beleive that half the folks in there are nice guys doctors and such all framed too. Or the Mice and Men nice guys. I feel what your saying and agree that people need to remove the rose colored glasses where these guys are concerned and perhaps that movie gets it right, but if you pull that one out someone lay out some mamby pamby crap and be just as justified. Reality is, those are not nice people in there very very few of them are in there for their first time and over half are not on their first stretch of time, and over 80% of them would nt manage to stay out of they got out. They have no intention of following the rules and laws of government, man and society and the ONLY thing keeping them in check even slightly is a Functioning Police Force and to some degree Armed citizens where they face that (only mentioned since crime stats go down where People are armed) If they don't have to worry about the police or any ORGANIZED pursuit they will have a feild day. And don't even think you can talk and negtiate with these people they call them Cons for a reason you have never met such a bunch that can look you in the eye and lie lie lie to suit their Wants to disarm (mentally) and gain your trust just enough to have that one moment to Rob Steal Kill etc many on prison will also tell you the only reason they don't Kill in the commission of their crimes is that the potential of a death or life sentence. I have spoken personally with them about these things and listened in on classes and such where these things are being discussed. I can also speak to the Nice guys seen on visits by groups coming in for tours. OF course you seen the nice guys they aren't going to take any chances of getting you assaulted, splashed with cleaning solution, urine, fecal matter thrown on you, a homeade spear stuck in you. The guys you meet and see are hand selected,carefully groomed, and promised "things" to get the desired behavior. I"ve been there when the selection was going on and the routes planned for walking in a tour. 

I"m not just trying to piss off and annoy the more friendly folks here I like people here and it seriously worries me some of the veiws I see. I hate to think of good hard working people who had the good sense to prepare for the good and safety of their family lose it all to a bunch of hooligans and most likely their life and worse. 

Reminds me I need to contact my elected officials and tell em I want a Texas style fast track to the execution chamber here.


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## MsSage

> So having a real good idea that there is no real plan for dealing with "offenders" when they can no longer be fed and cared for by the state/gov. And yeah I heard the rumors about the bad ones being shot in their cells all you need for proof of that being a lie is to see the ammo on hand in the arms room. They barely have enough on hand for training let alone enough to shoot several thousand "offenders", and "gassing " takes a bit more planning and prep if it was a plan there would have to be some renovations put in to make it feasible, at least gassing as the State looks at it.


I have been in the armory......ok LOL hmmmm Gas all we have is standard ...BUT in the right concentrations it can be lethal.

Where I work more than 25% are guardsmen.... half the CERT team is guard too

I was looking around last night and was thinking how many people really know what goes on behind these walls? Do they really have a clue about how bad and how little morality and a conscious these guys have.....Yeah most times they talk nice to me ....sometimes they dont. Oh and I LOVE the "we wont hit women...its chicken shit to do that gotta hit a man" ...yeah ok sure I buy that.......NOT. 
Yall need to understand these are CONvicts and they have mastered the CON game, They will soon kill you and take you stuff to get what the want......


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