# Bullet point list for new preppers...



## Goblin

with short attention spans! I'm a "list" guy and if you are also, this may help.

General:

Make your first goal a 30 day supply of the "Fab Four"... Food, Water, Fuel, and first aid.

Decide if you will BUG-OUT or BUG-IN and supply accordingly.

Prioritize your supplies based the most likely SHTF to occur in your area...flood, blizzard, etc.

Tell only trusted family and friends that you are prepping.

FOOD

Store extended shelf life foods that do not require water to prepare!

Store foods that can be easily rotated into daily use as they approach the freshness date

Canned foods can provide meat, veggies, bread, dairy, and extra water.

A small camp stove can be used for warming the food.

Water

1 gallon per person per day for drinking

Don't forget the water in the water heater. It's ok for washing, the toilets, etc.

If you have some warning, you can fill several 50 gal plastic trash cans for extra bathing and toilet water.

Water can be treated by using 8 drops of bleach per gallon. Boiling is good if you have enough fuel.


Light

Kerosene\hurricane lamps are the best. Have one for each person and a gallon of fuel for each. This will be enough for the 30 day scenario.

Small LED lanterns and flash lights can be used for personal needs or task specific lighting.

Generators are great, but very expensive to buy and feed! If you're rich, go for it!


Heat

Do not use a camp stove for heat in an unventilated room. They do make "indoor-rated" propane heaters now. Get a couple of those and enough fuel for limited use. Warm clothing and bedding will do for most situations

In a pinch, a large soup pot will make an emergency fire place if you can hunker down in the garage and vent the smoke out a window. Having a few of those man-made fire logs on hand wouldn't hurt.

Protection

12ga pump shotgun for the house

A hi-cap concealable pistol for ea. adult.


Extra Stuff

Batteries
Matches
Disposable lighters
Cell phone charger
Radio 
Waterless soap
Toilet paper

These tips will help you to get started quickly.


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## LittleFire

Not a bad list to start with for sure. I like it! If you live up North, like I do, make sure you have also a sleeping bag that is good to go below freezing for if you are not near a source of heat, this will come quite welcoming. Have one for every member of the family. And you can never go wrong with some tarps also....


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## Canadian

+1 on the -20 to -30 C sleeping bag if you're in the north.


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## doc66

As many here know (or maybe just a couple) my major disagreement with the list is the 12 gauge shotgun for many reasons. As a defensive firearm it is limited by a few things; number of rounds (a revolver holds more in most cases), the selection of rounds that people think will work (stay away from birdshot, its crap for defense, use 00 buck), and the belief that it can be used as a multi-purpose weapon. It can, but it is limited even in that. On top of those, the shotgun is punishing to the average shooter over a large round count. 

A better choice would be a military-based rifle, take your pick of your favorite. I realize that there are places that do not allow these, but even a Pistol Caliber Carbine is better defensively than a shotgun in many cases. 

Just my two cents as a firearms instructor and someone who teaches these things.


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## sundevilkid

doc66 said:


> As many here know (or maybe just a couple) my major disagreement with the list is the 12 gauge shotgun for many reasons. As a defensive firearm it is limited by a few things; number of rounds (a revolver holds more in most cases), the selection of rounds that people think will work (stay away from birdshot, its crap for defense, use 00 buck), and the belief that it can be used as a multi-purpose weapon. It can, but it is limited even in that. On top of those, the shotgun is punishing to the average shooter over a large round count.
> 
> A better choice would be a military-based rifle, take your pick of your favorite. I realize that there are places that do not allow these, but even a Pistol Caliber Carbine is better defensively than a shotgun in many cases.
> 
> Just my two cents as a firearms instructor and someone who teaches these things.


Yes but nothing is better than a 12 gauge when it comes to intimidation factor, knock down power, and aim. It's easier to hit a moving target at short distances with the 12 gauge than it is with a rifle/pistol. I'm a pretty good shot with my 9, but my wife is not. 12 gauge would be more forgiving in those cases. Especially if you are using the 18" barrel instead of the longer barrels (keeping in mind we are talking close quarter combat, not long range hunting). I personally would like to own the Remingtion 870 express with the short barrel and 7 + 1 loader.


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## sailaway

As I've gone from age 44 to 48, my eyes have been changing. I haven't been for an eye exam due to no insurance, so I have several pair of drug store reading glasses. Keep at least one pair in your BOB and and another pair in your safe place.


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## doc66

sundevilkid said:


> Yes but nothing is better than a 12 gauge when it comes to intimidation factor, knock down power, and aim. It's easier to hit a moving target at short distances with the 12 gauge than it is with a rifle/pistol. I'm a pretty good shot with my 9, but my wife is not. 12 gauge would be more forgiving in those cases. Especially if you are using the 18" barrel instead of the longer barrels (keeping in mind we are talking close quarter combat, not long range hunting). I personally would like to own the Remingtion 870 express with the short barrel and 7 + 1 loader.


This is an urban myth! It is not true at all!

I can cite you many instances of shotguns FAILING to work. A shotgun is no more forgiving than any other firearm in your battery. It still has to be aimed, it has a limited range and it is punishing to the shooter. I would NEVER suggest that a female who is unused to firearms use a shotgun over a good PCC. I have years of experience in training not only LEO but civilians as well. I have failed many an officer from chiefs of police to "knowing" road officers who thought that the shotgun was something you could just "shoot" because they didn't understand that it has to be aimed like any other firearm.

There is no substitute for training and proper firearm handling. A shotgun is not a mythical weapon that will make people quake in fear, blow holes in and through objects and send the person being shot across the room. There is no such a beast as Knock Down Power, and all shotgun stocks are too long for the average shooter, it is not an one size fits all weapon. The M4 carbine is a much better firearm in all aspects.

Forget all that you've heard, It is a fallible as any other firearm out there.

Training Schools will tell you all kinds of BS to get you to take their course, they will espouse all kinds of rhetoric about the shotgun and its uses. They just want your money. As do I want your money if you take one of my courses, but I'm not going to fill you full of BS about how great the weapon is. It is not. Suarez International will tell you the same thing. I'm not a big fan of the man per se, but he and I agree on many things in training, and the shotgun is one of them: it's not as wonderful as people want it to be.

Check us out at www.milcopptactical.com

Come and take our shotgun course, you'll learn a lot about how the shotgun really works and doesn't work.


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## Expeditioner

A 12 gauge can be an effective close quarter combat/home defense weapon. Is it the best.......depends on what weapons are available in your area, what you can afford, and of course the circumstances of the situation. Do I own a 12 gauge yes.....is it my only weapon? NO........

As with any weapon....one must use the right load, properly maintain it, train with it, and understand its limitations. It has been my experience that most (not all) shotgun failures are the result of operator error or neglect.


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## doc66

Not true. Shotguns fail for those reasons and because people do not understand that they are very Limited in their loading for defense and they are NOT as effective as they are touted to be. I have reports of shotgun shootings where the failure was the slugs not stopping the fight after passing through the body, the buckshot failing to penetrate at range and numerous other instances where a .223 or even a well aimed pistol round would have done better and in a couple of the cases, the PISTOL stopped the fight, not the shotgun.

I would take a Pistol Caliber Carbine (or a M4 carbine) over a shotgun on any given day. The PCC is lighter, carries more rounds and has faster followup shots than a shotgun with faster reloads and target acquisition. A Marlin Camp Carbine with a nice red dot in .45 ACP is a better choice for some place where you can't have an "assault weapon" and are limited to magazine capacity. You can get the Wilson Clinton mags (ten rounds) and be that far ahead of the shotgun for CQB. 

I'm not saying that it shouldn't be a part of the battery, but it should never be the go to weapon. There are numerous other firearms that are better suited to defense. Personally, the M4 style carbine is my go-to weapon. The shotgun for me, is third, after my Glock.


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## Vertigo

doc66 said:


> As many here know (or maybe just a couple) my major disagreement with the list is the 12 gauge shotgun for many reasons. As a defensive firearm it is limited by a few things; number of rounds (a revolver holds more in most cases), the selection of rounds that people think will work (stay away from birdshot, its crap for defense, use 00 buck), and the belief that it can be used as a multi-purpose weapon. It can, but it is limited even in that. On top of those, the shotgun is punishing to the average shooter over a large round count.


Some valid points have been made here and I must agree with you that a tactical shotgun has its limitations, as do many other firearms.

However, as a simple home defensive measure, I believe a shotgun is great. But off course it must be used in the correct manner.

If the perpetrator is already knocking down your front door and you (or your wife, children,... for that matter) still need to load your firearm before you can make your stand, then yeah, a shotgun is a bad idea.

If you are planning to stop a group thugs at the end of your street, looting and who knows what in one of your neighbours' house, then yeah an assault rifle will give me more confidence (provided I at least trained with it)

However, to go back to my statement that I believe a shotgun is great for in and (close-by) around the house, let me explain:

I do some amount of clay-pigeon shooting each year and though this is not a true tactical training, like your school apparently offers, it does teach one something about the limitations and markmanship with this firearm. It is quick, quick to shoulder, quick to aim. It has a good balance, there are no 'additions' to take my focus away, it is devastating within about 25 meters (with the right load). My first round is (reasonably consistently) hitting a target smaller than one's head, travelling at about 60 km/h, about 15 to 35 metres away. Now, if one can do that for a clay pigeon, it should not be that hard for 2-legged critters. I am not saying it is an area-weapon, but it sure gives me more consistent hits on my clays than a semi-automatic rifle ever would.

A second, in my opinion the most important, consideration is that of over penetration. I think one must agree that before using a firearm in-house (or outside in the backyard) in a populated neighbourhood should be evaded at all costs and if there is no option to turn away from the danger, special considerations for over-penetration are desirable. True, a shotgun with certain loads will still over-penetrate, but not even close to that of a semi-automatic rifle.

Also, for many the issue of cost is a big plus for shotguns. A well made, simple shotgun can be had around here starting from 500 euro (about 700 dollar) for a new one or much cheaper for second hand. Before you tell me this is expensive, realise I live in Europe and firearms are not exactly cheap around here. A semi-automatic rifle in .223 would probably start around 1200 euro (about 1500 dollar) (and never mind the fact that I cannot own such a rifle, with a magazine of more than 3-5 rounds, unless a special extra permit is requested (and often denied)).

And where cost is low for a shotgun, their value is great, most people with shotguns here use shotguns over 15 years old, which apart from some basic cleaning, have never needed any repairs or maintenance whatsoever.

But this is of course my opinion and under no circumstance do I pretend to be an expert on the matter.

greetz and take care,

V.


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## Expeditioner

Vertigo said:


> Some valid points have been made here and I must agree with you that a tactical shotgun has its limitations, as do many other firearms.
> 
> However, as a simple home defensive measure, I believe a shotgun is great. But off course it must be used in the correct manner.
> 
> If the perpetrator is already knocking down your front door and you (or your wife, children,... for that matter) still need to load your firearm before you can make your stand, then yeah, a shotgun is a bad idea.
> 
> If you are planning to stop a group thugs at the end of your street, looting and who knows what in one of your neighbours' house, then yeah an assault rifle will give me more confidence (provided I at least trained with it)
> 
> However, to go back to my statement that I believe a shotgun is great for in and (close-by) around the house, let me explain:
> 
> I do some amount of clay-pigeon shooting each year and though this is not a true tactical training, like your school apparently offers, it does teach one something about the limitations and markmanship with this firearm. It is quick, quick to shoulder, quick to aim. It has a good balance, there are no 'additions' to take my focus away, it is devastating within about 25 meters (with the right load). My first round is (reasonably consistently) hitting a target smaller than one's head, travelling at about 60 km/h, about 15 to 35 metres away. Now, if one can do that for a clay pigeon, it should not be that hard for 2-legged critters. I am not saying it is an area-weapon, but it sure gives me more consistent hits on my clays than a semi-automatic rifle ever would.
> 
> A second, in my opinion the most important, consideration is that of over penetration. I think one must agree that before using a firearm in-house (or outside in the backyard) in a populated neighbourhood should be evaded at all costs and if there is no option to turn away from the danger, special considerations for over-penetration are desirable. True, a shotgun with certain loads will still over-penetrate, but not even close to that of a semi-automatic rifle.
> 
> Also, for many the issue of cost is a big plus for shotguns. A well made, simple shotgun can be had around here starting from 500 euro (about 700 dollar) for a new one or much cheaper for second hand. Before you tell me this is expensive, realise I live in Europe and firearms are not exactly cheap around here. A semi-automatic rifle in .223 would probably start around 1200 euro (about 1500 dollar) (and never mind the fact that I cannot own such a rifle, with a magazine of more than 3-5 rounds, unless a special extra permit is requested (and often denied)).
> 
> And where cost is low for a shotgun, their value is great, most people with shotguns here use shotguns over 15 years old, which apart from some basic cleaning, have never needed any repairs or maintenance whatsoever.
> 
> But this is of course my opinion and under no circumstance do I pretend to be an expert on the matter.
> 
> greetz and take care,
> 
> V.


Very good points Vertigo! Experience is the only expert needed. What I use depends on the circumstances. I doubt anyone here would not hesitate to use a 12 guage of that was the only weapon available to them. If am unarmed and looking at the business end of a 12 gauge....I am sure as heck not going to say who I can take you because odds are your shotgun is going to fail.

Anyway back on point...the orginal list is a good start. You need to be familiar with all your equipment.


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## NaeKid

Vertigo said:


> I do some amount of clay-pigeon shooting each year and though this is not a true tactical training, like your school apparently offers, it does teach one something about the limitations and markmanship with this firearm. It is quick, quick to shoulder, quick to aim. It has a good balance, there are no 'additions' to take my focus away, it is devastating within about 25 meters (with the right load). My first round is (reasonably consistently) hitting a target smaller than one's head, travelling at about 60 km/h, about 15 to 35 metres away. Now, if one can do that for a clay pigeon, it should not be that hard for 2-legged critters. I am not saying it is an area-weapon, but it sure gives me more consistent hits on my clays than a semi-automatic rifle ever would.


I also do a fair bit of clay-pigeon shooting. I have used 10g, 12g and 20g guns to pick off the clays. From what I have watched, the 20g shot-gun is a great option for the ladies. It seems to be lighter and have less of a kick-back than a 12g. The ladies that I have shot with have a 90% hit rate (or better) with the 20g ... and closer to a 60% hit rate when using a 12g.

There are all kinds of other guages of shot-guns (as described at this page) - but they don't seem to be as easily accessable as the 12g and 20g are.


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## Vertigo

A 10 gauge you say? Never even seen one, over here we have 12, 16, 20, but never a 10 gauge. It must kick like mule!

But I must say that I am not very fond of the 20 gauge, there is in my experience not enough difference in kick to warrant the use of those less powerful rounds. Off course, this would not matter much when shooting clays, eh? 
Just my opinion I had when I was shooting a 20 gauge for a change after I was shooting 12 gauge the entire afternoon, so maybe my shoulder was just a slightly bit biased... 

V.


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## NaeKid

Last weekend we sighted-in a few toys. Started out by sighting in a cross-bow, then a couple of .22's. Then we pulled out the 12g and took out the clay's .. then out came the 30-30 and the 30-06 and we sighted them in. Then we went back to the 12g and it was a PITA to hit the clays. Then we dug out the 20g and kept shootin' .. and we were able to hit the clays a bit easier.

Just so that you know - my right shoulder is still bruised .. I had to skip my Tuesday-nite at the shooting-range due to lack-of-movement ..


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## Vertigo

good times for sure, at least you are having fun not just for one day then  but for the rest of the week as well! 

V.


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## doc66

Vertigo, while your post is for your country, my post was for those here in the USA where we have far better choices for defensive firearms, the AR platform being one of the foremost choices out there. Your concerns about over penetration on the .223/5.56 are none-issues as that round over penetrates far less often than a 9mm which is why every PD SWAT team in the US is getting away from the HK MP5 and going to the M4 carbine. The round does not go through walls like the 9mm but it DOES penetrate effectively against soft targets that are soft-armored (jackets, leather, heavy clothing) unlike 00 Buck which has recorded failures against soft-armor at range. 

On another note, because I tend to rotate my defensive battery occasionally, my G19 being the constant, I AM currently sporting my Tac'ed-up 870 as the go-to long gun at the moment. It is stoked with seven rounds of Federal 00 Buck in the tube and five more on the buttstock sleeve. However, I still maintain that the AR platform is the way to go, I just like to be able to tell students that there are times that I too, run what I am teaching.


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## Vertigo

@ doc66,

with all respect, I never intended my post to be exclusively related to my country, I just used European prices, because those I know more or less. I'm sure shotguns are, in general, also much cheaper than semi-automatic rifles in the US. 

Also, while 00 Buck might not always penetrate 'soft armor' aka normal clothes, I am pretty sure that if I were to shoot center mass at a perp at a distance of about 10 metres (in-house ranges), even with 'a heavy leather jacket', that guy will not get up in the first 5 minutes. The sheer impact will be enought to cause broken ribs, collapsed lungs, internal organ damage,... you name it. Or at least get him on his back, not understanding how he got there.

I never said the shotgun is the best choice out there. If I really could choose, for home protection, I would probably rather have a platoon of marines . There are better systems out there, but a shotgun is not a bad option per se like you appeared to say in your previous post. That was all I was trying to get across.

greetz, 

V.


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## doc66

Again. The shotgun does not cause massive damage to subject like everyone believes. I have seen shotgun wounds, and have personal knowledge of shotgun shootings, four of them off the top of my head and every person I've seen or know of hit by a shotgun has survived. Every single one. I can't say the same for people shot with pistols above 9mm or any rifle rounds except one; a 7.62x59 fired from over two miles away that skipped off the backstop and hit a guy washing his car. Shotguns do not cause massive internal bleeding, they don't break bones, they don't toss people to the ground. They are nine .32 caliber round balls with less penetration than most realize. They have no expansion powers, they do not penetrate all targets and they don't deliver massive bits of energy into a target. All they are are .32 caliber holes. They are effectively nine cap and ball rounds shot all at once. While at room distances, the shotgun is useful, it is not nearly as useful as a good pistol in the same space or a PCC or a faster, more accurate and easier to shoot 5.56 rifle. 

I'm not trying to hijack the thread, but I just believe that the shotgun, as a defensive weapon is highly overrated and not as useful as people want it to be. I depended on a shotgun for a large portion of my career as my primary long arm, but the day I was qualified to use my AR, as an instructor and road officer, I never looked back. 

There are much better rounds for defense. There are much better weapons as well. No, you are not going to have marines to back you up, so wouldn't you want the most effective weapon you can legally use? I could defend my home with my machinegun, but it's not the best weapon in my battery for that purpose. 

Neither is the shotgun. I have it as a secondary (or even third choice) with what I deem to be far better choices as my go to weapons. Yes, right now it is sitting out because I was rotating my long guns. I've even had my Scout Rifle in that role, not because it was the best choice, but because I like to be able to speak with knowledge about the subject of defense. 

I always tell my partner that he gets too worked up about this stuff, and I suppose that I do as well. 

Thanks for the replies, it helps me to think through my training courses.


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## Canadian

doc66 said:


> a 7.62x59 fired from over two miles away that skipped off the backstop and hit a guy washing his car.


Wow. I bet that shooting range was closed down in a hurry.


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## doc66

It was a private/backyard range and the shooter did not even know it had not hit the backstop. My Lt. was actually the one who figured it out by getting on Google maps and looking at satellite photos of the area. He spotted the makeshift range, drew a line fromt he victim to the range and it matched. Then it was door to door from there. The shooter was charged with a misdemeanor (can't remember the actual charge) and basically paid a fine.


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## Canadian

I hope the backstop has been improved. I also hope the guy washing his car was okay. I'd sue if I was the guy washing the car.


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## doc66

The guy washing the car is fine, but he has a new scar or two and can say he's been shot when trying to pick up the chicks. There was no civil suit that I'm aware of. As for the backstop, we can only hope! The backstop is technically in the county, but because the "crime" happened in our jurisdiction, we had the case. It was a weird one for sure.


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## Helocast

*Story from the trenches*

this is all cool stuff and fun to read, but here is the bottom line. First, you will have to move so have a bug out bag. Its been proven time and time again that a static defense wont work and if you think your shelter wont be bothered if there is a real disaster your DEAD wrong. So be prepared to be mobile. Second, all this cool gun talk M4, 870 , M9 whatever. Imagine taking a explosive concussion strong enough to knock you forward into your weapon, the vernerable M4, and bending the stock. Thus ends the recoil system disabling the gun. So you weapon transfer to your Benelli and fight your way to cover but on the way you spend your last round. You drop the 12ga onto its sling and draw your M9 and fight to cover where you reload, dump your useless M4 and pick up the only thing available a well worn AK. Then six months later you come back home and have a cold beer. Bottom line. There is no perfect weapon especially the M4 otherwise front line troops wouldn't be screaming for the SCAR and a heavier bullet. M9 (Beretta) great street fighting weapon. Would I own one for long term survival? Nope, I will take a plain jane 1911. Would I be caught without a shotgun? Nope, been proven in house clearing, trenches, jungles and Urban streets. Would I assume a 9mm or a 5,56 would stop my target on the first shot?, Nope, too many bad guys have fought back after a chest shot from both rounds. My suggestions...7.62 caliber, 12ga, .40, .45, .357. forget the sexy and train! By the way what is a 7,62x59? If we are talking 7.62x54r... Darn good round. Good punch and accurate in the right hands out to a 1000 meters. In fact if I wanted to go cheap and reliable I would get a mosin in 7,62x54r. It is a real workhorse. True story from Iraq. get a primary and a backup and get good with them.


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## Goblin

Bump for the newbies. :wave:


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## partdeux

doc66 said:


> I would NEVER suggest that a female who is unused to firearms use a shotgun over a good PCC.


Good friend of mine a couple of months ago had someone attempting to break into her house. She has very limited firearm experience, grabbed hubby's 12g shotgun... and promptly blew a hole in the side of their house.

sorry, missed that it's an OLD thread


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## horseman09

partdeux said:


> Good friend of mine a couple of months ago had someone attempting to break into her house. She has very limited firearm experience, grabbed hubby's 12g shotgun... and promptly blew a hole in the side of their house.
> 
> sorry, missed that it's an OLD thread


part, yes, it is an old thread, but IMHO, that's ok. I think it's an important topic. Our preps are worthless if we and our families aren't alive to use them.

Glad you refreshed it.

Merry Christmas!


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## JayJay

Dh finally found me a gun..a youth 20 guage, single shot---so I may not blow out the wall like the lady mentioned, but if the criminal doesn't get scared with that distinctive click-click sound, I'm toast...LOL..okay, not funny.:surrender:


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## partdeux

As pointed out, safety training is important.

At the range, SWMBO set down her 9 and accidentally grabbed the bang stick with her buger finger. Scared the hell out of both of us, but luckily the business end was pointed down range. She was showing a friend something on her 22 WHILE I WAS DOWN RANGE {sigh}. I saw that on the video that another friend published on youtube, happy I was not. And she's the smart one... seriously she's extremely intelligent. But she's not the only one, I've gotten chastised at the club because after shooting my 9mm, standing behind most of the people in the room, reloaded the gun, racked the slide and holstered it.


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## LincTex

From the Mossberg 500 Wiki:

"Mossberg claims the Model 500 is the only shotgun to pass the US Army's Mil-Spec 3443E test, "a brutal and unforgiving torture test with 3,000 rounds of full power 12 gauge buckshot". (The updated 3443G specification requires a metal trigger guard, so only the Model 590A1 variants, which have a heavier barrel and use metal trigger groups instead of the standard Model 500's plastic trigger groups, will fit the requirements.[2])

While the Marines officially switched to the semi-automatic M1014 Combat Shotgun in 1999, various branches of the US military are still acquiring pump shotguns. The Navy acquired several thousand Mossberg 590A1 shotguns in 2004,[9] and the US Army placed an order in 2005 for 14,818 units at a price of just over US$316 each[10] (The Benelli M1014 is considerably more expensive).

In 2009 US Special Forces Groups procured Military Enhancement Kits to provide a standardized shotgun configuration based on the Mossberg 500. The kits included a collapsible stock, "shotgun retention system", 1913 receiver rail, forend rail system and breaching barrels. A total of 1301 shotguns were converted with the first unit being equipped in July, 2009. The majority of the kits convert the standard issue shotgun to a 14" compact model with a 16" accessory breaching barrel."

The pump action 12 gauge is far from dead in many aspects.

Also:
Chinese Soldiers Shun Shotguns - RP Defense
"Meanwhile, the United States saw its combat shotguns evolve rapidly during the years of combat in Iraq. The result, two years ago, was the appearance of a new shotgun design in Iraq and Afghanistan. This came after over a year of additional testing and tweaking. Then the U.S. Army bought over 10,000 of the M26 12 Gauge Modular Accessory Shotgun Systems (MASS). The M26 weighs about one kilogram (2 pounds, 11 ounces) and has a five round magazine. The M26 is a 42cm (16.5 inch) long, 12 gauge shotgun and can be operated right or left handed. It fires solid shot for blasting open closed doors, or lower velocity, non-lethal (most of the time) rubber slugs for dealing with hostile crowds. A stand-alone version weighs 1.9 kg (4 pounds, 3 ounces) and is 61cm (24 inches) long (with the attached stock collapsed).

The first versions of this weapon weighed 4.1 kg (nine pounds) and carried only three rounds. The design evolved, over the last decade, into the current M26. Troops tested it in combat for two years. There were complaints about the cocking mechanism, which used a bolt instead of a pump action (which many troops expressed a preference for.) The final design improved the cocking mechanism, and the reliability of the magazines. Before MASS, troops used a conventional (Mossberg) 12 gauge shotgun for getting locked doors open in a hurry. The M26 proved very reliable during testing, with over 20,000 rounds being fired. Large quantities of the M26 reached the troops in 2009."

I have a 18.5" Mossberg 500 12 gauge next to my bed....on my wife's side is the same thing in 20 gauge. I train with a shotgun and feel it is best for defense around and in the home. I also carry a G22 Glock, but when the dog goes crazy at 2AM I grab the Mossberg with tactical light first.


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## horseman09

I have 2 Mossburg 500s and I like them, but be aware that they have safety problems. The safety jammed on both of mine, with one gun having been used very little. I mentioned that to a friend who said the same thing happened to him. The gunsmith who fixed them said the safety problem is very common. In fact, you can count on it malfunctioning eventually. Once it's fixed, it is fixed for good. Something about the metal they used on the safety slide at the factory.


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## ajsmith

I like the OP "Bullet Point List" it gives some good general guidance. Now that we've (in my humble opinion) beaten the shotgun topic to death, I'm curious to know what people think of the rest of the list? Is there something else that should be considered that's not on the list? Maybe some good books on the subject? 

Sorry, I don't intend to upset anyone but I think this is a good post with more value than just shotgun information......


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## BillS

For canned meats we have 12 ounce cans of canned chicken from Wal-Mart. When I was stocking up it was $1.99 a can. I intend to use it with hamburger helper and chili. We also got one pound canned hams from Wal-Mart. I bought them at $3.48. Last time I looked they were $3.84. We also got enough Dinty Moore Beef Stew to have it for one meal a week for a year for 4 people.

We have two kerosene heaters right now. I still might get two more. I plan on using one in the living room and one in the basement to keep our water and canned goods from freezing.

We have a camp stove and 30 gallons of coleman fuel as well as some kerosene cooking stoves.

I don't like the idea of burning wood because it shows everyone for miles that your home is inhabited, you have heat, and who knows what else you have?

Our water is in one gallon plastic jugs that have a limited lifespan. I put together plywood and concrete blocks to hold 4 layers of 96 jugs with 128 jugs on top. We have about 1500 gallons right now and don't have room for much more unless I get some 55 gallon barrels.

We have about 400 rolls of toilet paper. I bought them in 12 and 24 roll packages. They're sitting on top of one of the water towers.


----------



## Fn/Form

ajsmith said:


> I like the OP "Bullet Point List" it gives some good general guidance. Now that we've (in my humble opinion) beaten the shotgun topic to death, I'm curious to know what people think of the rest of the list? Is there something else that should be considered that's not on the list? Maybe some good books on the subject?
> 
> Sorry, I don't intend to upset anyone but I think this is a good post with more value than just shotgun information......


The given bulleted list is a lot better than nothing.

I think a better, more comprehensive treatment would be:
1. List all the major prep categories (chem/bio/rad, food, water, communications, etc.)
2. List all the major concerns (group special needs, location, procedures, likely disasters (man-made and natural), etc.)
3. Prioritize the categories, concerns
4. Make a plan of solutions and a timetable

That way it can be customized per the individual's situation--while still being as comprehensive as possible.


----------



## Indiana_Jones

ajsmith said:


> Sorry, I don't intend to upset anyone but I think this is a good post with more value than just shotgun information.


Amen. I wonder why some folks feel the need to tell everyone else that they are wrong when it comes to firearms. :dunno: If this thread hadn't been hi-jacked by gun drivel we may have a very good list by now.


----------



## Redtail

And notice how it's always the AR15 guys who do it, too... 
If there was only one "best" gun, there would only be one gun. Period, end of story. 

Even supposing you *are* right, guys, what's that they say about catching flies? Honey works better than vinegar.


----------



## valannb22

Last week, an 18yo girl killed an armed intruder with a 12 gauge after he and his friend broke into her house about 10 miles from here. Poor girl has a 3 month old baby and her husband had just died from cancer. Anyways, just reading all that shotgun debate made me think of that story. I don't care for shotguns. The only time I shot one was when I was still dating my husband and he decided to take me out shooting. I have no idea what he put in that thing, but it knocked me flat on my butt when I pulled the trigger.


----------



## LincTex

valannb22 said:


> I have no idea what he put in that thing, but it knocked me flat on my butt when I pulled the trigger.


It was just plain 'ol 12 gauge shells - - nothing special. 
A lot of 12 gauge shotguns really do kick pretty bad (it depends on the gun - lightweight single-shot ones kick a lot worse)


----------



## turkeydog

*Newbie on the 12 gauge.*



doc66 said:


> As many here know (or maybe just a couple) my major disagreement with the list is the 12 gauge shotgun for many reasons. As a defensive firearm it is limited by a few things; number of rounds (a revolver holds more in most cases), the selection of rounds that people think will work (stay away from birdshot, its crap for defense, use 00 buck), and the belief that it can be used as a multi-purpose weapon. It can, but it is limited even in that. On top of those, the shotgun is punishing to the average shooter over a large round count.
> 
> A better choice would be a military-based rifle, take your pick of your favorite. I realize that there are places that do not allow these, but even a Pistol Caliber Carbine is better defensively than a shotgun in many cases.
> 
> Just my two cents as a firearms instructor and someone who teaches these things.


If the 12 is too much, go down to the 20 gauge. Also, I use #1 or #4 buck for home defense. More pellets and less likely to go through sheetrock walls into other rooms. birdshot rounds can be scored around the middle at the wadding and become instant slugs. so they are all good. mossberg 500 or reminton 870 are my favs. simple and sturdy. I am just getting started into prepping so to speak, but grew up in the country where we can food, grow our own meat and keep extra water and fuel due to storms and power outages, so I guess I have a natural foot in the door.


----------



## turkeydog

*kick in time saves nine....*



valannb22 said:


> Last week, an 18yo girl killed an armed intruder with a 12 gauge after he and his friend broke into her house about 10 miles from here. Poor girl has a 3 month old baby and her husband had just died from cancer. Anyways, just reading all that shotgun debate made me think of that story. I don't care for shotguns. The only time I shot one was when I was still dating my husband and he decided to take me out shooting. I have no idea what he put in that thing, but it knocked me flat on my butt when I pulled the trigger.


You will never notice the kick when you shoot on a real (live)target. I have never done so. You only notice the kick and recoild when target practicing because you anticipate it. try skeet shooting as a way to help get over anticipating recoil. not as good as shooting game, but better than punching paper. Adrenaline will stop any pain you feel if you have to drop the hammer on a real target.


----------



## Dantedog

*personal protection/home defense*

You should see what the Taurus 3" .410 magnum pistol does packing 4 copper disk type slugs with 16 BBs. Much easier to handle in close proximity as compared to a 12 gauge. That said, there is nothing more intimidating than the sound of jacking a round (00 preferred) into a good Remington 870. Just my thoughts.


----------



## BillM

*You don't have to be big*

You don't have to be big to shoot a 12 gage or high powered rifle.

If you will pull the stock firmly into your shoulder, the kick will turn into a push!

It only hurts when you are not pulling the stock tight to your shoulder.


----------



## mojo4

The best gun to use?? One you are familiar with!! Too many guys get caught up in this caliber or that and the deadliest one is one you can use proficiently and under pressure. Don't be like that moron on doomsday preppers and blow your thumb off with a .22 cause you don't know how it works!! Master 1 gun and then another.


----------



## runt1

*some one who knows*



doc66 said:


> Not true. Shotguns fail for those reasons and because people do not understand that they are very Limited in their loading for defense and they are NOT as effective as they are touted to be. I have reports of shotgun shootings where the failure was the slugs not stopping the fight after passing through the body, the buckshot failing to penetrate at range and numerous other instances where a .223 or even a well aimed pistol round would have done better and in a couple of the cases, the PISTOL stopped the fight, not the shotgun.
> 
> I would take a Pistol Caliber Carbine (or a M4 carbine) over a shotgun on any given day. The PCC is lighter, carries more rounds and has faster followup shots than a shotgun with faster reloads and target acquisition. A Marlin Camp Carbine with a nice red dot in .45 ACP is a better choice for some place where you can't have an "assault weapon" and are limited to magazine capacity. You can get the Wilson Clinton mags (ten rounds) and be that far ahead of the shotgun for CQB.
> 
> I'm not saying that it shouldn't be a part of the battery, but it should never be the go to weapon. There are numerous other firearms that are better suited to defense. Personally, the M4 style carbine is my go-to weapon. The shotgun for me, is third, after my Glock.


sorry not trying to start anything but what he is trying to say is that his wife is not the best shoot and yes if she get's the aim closes there going down I have any gun you can think of and been hunting all my life my kid's all hunt with me my wife does sometimes not as much as i would like .and yes 223 is a very nice gun but harder for some one to hit a target than a shotgun and if you shoot at someone with ethter I don't think they will hang around to tell you if you hit them or not


----------



## Bravo_12v

Something I would like to add but it seem most people over look is fire starters, I almost forgot about this simple child entertainment candles. "Trick" candles are designed to not be blown out by wind. So in a down to the last match if you light one of these you stand a better chance of starting a survival fire.


----------



## MsSage

one note on guns.....find one that you feel good about and _*practice*_. My fav gun is my 357 rifle but I shoot 38's not as much kick. I have to qualify on shotgun and I can qualify, but I HATE every shot and dread shooting day. I love the ar and its fun to shoot BUT its NOT my go to gun.

ziplock bags are a must....if you have to leave they are great for soaking beans while you travel then they are ready to cook that night. 
extra can openers LOL

I know alot say you have to be ready to move...well I am that lil ol lady who will die with her chickens LOL the last time I will move will be when we move to Idaho....if that never happens then I have this place which is mine...I have room for my horses, dogs, chickens with no restrictions, and a nice size garden. Only problem is water.... Biggest item is my JOB which is here.


----------



## ajsmith

Bravo_12v said:


> Something I would like to add but it seem most people over look is fire starters, I almost forgot about this simple child entertainment candles. "Trick" candles are designed to not be blown out by wind. So in a down to the last match if you light one of these you stand a better chance of starting a survival fire.


Thanks Bravo for adding something to this post other than re-hashed gun info. I like the idea of novelty candles and I think I'll add them to my BOB. 

MsSage, zip lock bags are already in my BOB and come in very handy as I continually add to my weakly stocked supplies!


----------



## vondonna

I know this is an old thread, but I'm new to this board (and to prepping).

I, too, am on a very tight budget. I lost my job of 20 years in this economy. Scary stuff. Because of my very limited budget I've been scouring the web for ideas of what to use/save that would be useful if the SHTF. One of the items that is free is that I save all of my dryer lint in ziplock bags.. it's free and it's an excellent firestarter.


----------



## bulfrog5

doc66 said:


> This is an urban myth! It is not true at all!
> 
> I can cite you many instances of shotguns FAILING to work. A shotgun is no more forgiving than any other firearm in your battery. It still has to be aimed, it has a limited range and it is punishing to the shooter. I would NEVER suggest that a female who is unused to firearms use a shotgun over a good PCC. I have years of experience in training not only LEO but civilians as well. I have failed many an officer from chiefs of police to "knowing" road officers who thought that the shotgun was something you could just "shoot" because they didn't understand that it has to be aimed like any other firearm.
> 
> There is no substitute for training and proper firearm handling. A shotgun is not a mythical weapon that will make people quake in fear, blow holes in and through objects and send the person being shot across the room. There is no such a beast as Knock Down Power, and all shotgun stocks are too long for the average shooter, it is not an one size fits all weapon. The M4 carbine is a much better firearm in all aspects.
> 
> Forget all that you've heard, It is a fallible as any other firearm out there.
> 
> Training Schools will tell you all kinds of BS to get you to take their course, they will espouse all kinds of rhetoric about the shotgun and its uses. They just want your money. As do I want your money if you take one of my courses, but I'm not going to fill you full of BS about how great the weapon is. It is not. Suarez International will tell you the same thing. I'm not a big fan of the man per se, but he and I agree on many things
> Check us out at www.milcopptactical.com
> 
> Come and take our shotgun course, you'll learn a lot about how the shotgun really works and doesn't work.


I'm sorry but I can't allow you to sit there and blow smoke up peoples butts about the M4 being a better weapon system for defense vs. a 12 gauge shotgun. You said it yourself, "There is no substitute for training and proper firearm handling." You go on to say that, "The M4 carbine is a much better firearm in all aspects." Please in your infinite experience outside of a theoretical or training environment describe how the latter statement is even close to being true. Have you ever even used an M4 against soft targets (humans)? Each weapons system, the 12 gauge and the M4 serves a purpose in a defense plan. My advice would be to forget about an M4 altogether. You want stopping power or the ability to reach out and touch some one, the M4 will fail you on both accounts. Relying on the M4 over all other weapons will leave you at a disadvantage. I good starting weapon is a mossberg 500 with pistol grip and 8 round magazine tube. Unless you are being overrun this weapon will suffice for close quarters defense as it has no butt stock and 8 rounds will be enough to end the threat posed by a individual or small group of attackers. I do agree that knowledge of your weapon and it's capabilities is paramount to any defense plan. Once you have your shotgun and are able to use it properly and effectively you will need to address the need to have a weapon that can reach out and touch someone. Again an area the M4 fails miserably at. If you are dead set on the M4 platform please do not get one chambered in 5.56 (.223) The round is useless as a defense round. You should look at the .308 (7.62) as a round that will allow you to reach out and touch someone and have the stopping power at distance.

As for doc66, you said it yourself,"Training Schools will tell you all kinds of BS to get you to take their course, they will espouse all kinds of rhetoric about the shotgun and its uses. They just want your money." Yeah ok you said you won't fill peoples heads with BS about the shotgun being this great mythical weapon, no you will just push your favorite toy, the M4. Stop spewing garbage advice, people are coming here for legitimate advice not a sales pitch about your firearms training business.

My experience comes from two tours of duty in Iraq (1st Mar Div 2003)(2nd Bn 11th Marines sep 2004- mar 2005) My second tour was trained as a designated marksman, trained on the M4 and the M16 A4. In my opinion the A4 with a collapsible stock and chambered for .308 makes the M4 look like a bb gun. But hey you're the expert right? I'll put my .308 up against your M4 chambered in 5.56 (.223), 6.8mm, whatever you want. I could drop you before your M4 even became a threat to my position. Knowledge is power people.


----------



## goshengirl

vondonna said:


> One of the items that is free is that I save all of my dryer lint in ziplock bags.. it's free and it's an excellent firestarter.


This is a project I've been needing to get started - thanks for the reminder. 

And welcome to the forum! Really sorry about your job - hope you find a silver lining soon.


----------



## tiedami

vondonna said:


> One of the items that is free is that I save all of my dryer lint in ziplock bags.. it's free and it's an excellent firestarter.


I do the same thing my i take the lint and roll it around in some petroleum jelly and then pack it into an old pill bottle.....work great always takes the spark the first time and if it gets wet...no problemo!


----------



## Fn/Form

The pure cotton lint burns well.

The lint from synthetics... not so much.


----------



## Fn/Form

bulfrog5 said:


> I'm sorry but I can't allow you to sit there and blow smoke up peoples butts about the M4 being a better weapon system for defense vs. a 12 gauge shotgun. You said it yourself, "There is no substitute for training and proper firearm handling." You go on to say that, "The M4 carbine is a much better firearm in all aspects." Please in your infinite experience outside of a theoretical or training environment describe how the latter statement is even close to being true. Have you ever even used an M4 against soft targets (humans)? Each weapons system, the 12 gauge and the M4 serves a purpose in a defense plan. My advice would be to forget about an M4 altogether. You want stopping power or the ability to reach out and touch some one, the M4 will fail you on both accounts. Relying on the M4 over all other weapons will leave you at a disadvantage. I good starting weapon is a mossberg 500 with pistol grip and 8 round magazine tube. Unless you are being overrun this weapon will suffice for close quarters defense as it has no butt stock and 8 rounds will be enough to end the threat posed by a individual or small group of attackers. I do agree that knowledge of your weapon and it's capabilities is paramount to any defense plan. Once you have your shotgun and are able to use it properly and effectively you will need to address the need to have a weapon that can reach out and touch someone. Again an area the M4 fails miserably at. If you are dead set on the M4 platform please do not get one chambered in 5.56 (.223) The round is useless as a defense round. You should look at the .308 (7.62) as a round that will allow you to reach out and touch someone and have the stopping power at distance.
> 
> As for doc66, you said it yourself,"Training Schools will tell you all kinds of BS to get you to take their course, they will espouse all kinds of rhetoric about the shotgun and its uses. They just want your money." Yeah ok you said you won't fill peoples heads with BS about the shotgun being this great mythical weapon, no you will just push your favorite toy, the M4. Stop spewing garbage advice, people are coming here for legitimate advice not a sales pitch about your firearms training business.
> 
> My experience comes from two tours of duty in Iraq (1st Mar Div 2003)(2nd Bn 11th Marines sep 2004- mar 2005) My second tour was trained as a designated marksman, trained on the M4 and the M16 A4. In my opinion the A4 with a collapsible stock and chambered for .308 makes the M4 look like a bb gun. But hey you're the expert right? I'll put my .308 up against your M4 chambered in 5.56 (.223), 6.8mm, whatever you want. I could drop you before your M4 even became a threat to my position. Knowledge is power people.


I need your expertise on a few questions.

Why have police departments en masse gone from shotgun to carbines?

Why do organizations such as NTOA and others fight so hard to get carbines accepted? Their members are mostly military.

Why do the other experts like yourself (Paul Howe, Larry Vickers, Kyle Lamb, Jeff Gonzales, etc., etc.) all teach the carbine as the primary weapon system?

The A4 can't be chambered for 7.62, it is too small. You're looking for it's larger, heavier predecessor, the AR10 type.

The M4 can be relied on with the right ammunition. I'm sorry the bureaucrats won't give you good ammo like Federal LE223T3 or even Speer 24448. At least the Marines are now fielding Mk318 in some areas. And, sadly, I'm sorry that good training takes so long to trickle down.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=38540

A Mossy 500 + pistol grip + full 8rd load = 6.75lbs or more. And a lot of that weight is in a magazine tube in front of the receiver. A barrel length of 18" adds further forward weight. Not good for people who would struggle with the Daily 16, and definitely not good for split times between threats.

The M4 weighs about 7.5lbs with 30 rounds (not just 8) and keeps the weight mid or rearward. While 12oz heavier, it's easier to hold on target. Add a quality lightweight barrel and stocks and you've got weight even with the 500.

With the 500 pistol precision and follow-up shots are severely hampered without the shoulder stabilization and cheek weld of a buttstock (which all Marines and esp. DMs are so acutely aware of).

We need your positive contribution to this site, bulfrog5. We do not need attitude or erroneous information.


----------



## greene

This is done good ideas. Some numbers to meet or exceed with supply quantities!


----------



## JoKing

*Homonyms*



ajsmith said:


> Thanks Bravo for adding something to this post other than re-hashed gun info.


Don't blame the gun toters for the thread congestion. If Goblin would have made an "OUTLINE" instead of a "BULLETlist", then you would only have do deal with the professional rope handlers(out line) clogging up the thread, and they're always too tied up to comment.

Now let me share a conversation that I observed while sitting with a group of friends around a camp fire. I had laryngitis at the time, so I couldn't participate. They were talking about what they wished we would have brought with us to our spontaneous camp out. The names have been changed and any of the content related to actual events are purely coincidental. 
It went a little like this:


Goblin said:


> With a short attention span, I'm a "list" guy and if you are also, this may help...What were we talking about? Oh yeah, how we should plan for our next 30 day camp out and what we CAN'T forget. Chime in any time you think of something I'm missing, and excuse me if it sounds like I'm reading from a bullet list. Wanna hear it? Here it goes...
> In General:
> -Make your first goal a 30 day supply of the "Fab Four"... Food, Water, Fuel, and first aid.
> -Decide if you will BUG-OUT or BUG-IN and supply accordingly.
> -Prioritize your supplies based the most likely SHTF to occur in your area...flood, blizzard, etc.
> -Tell only trusted family and friends that you are prepping.
> FOOD
> -Store extended shelf life foods that do not require water to prepare!
> -Store foods that can be easily rotated into daily use as they approach the freshness date
> -Canned foods can provide meat, veggies, bread, dairy, and extra water.
> -A small camp stove can be used for warming the food.
> Water
> -1 gallon per person per day for drinking
> -Don't forget the water in the water heater. It's ok for washing, the toilets, etc.
> -If you have some warning, you can fill several 50 gal plastic trash cans for extra bathing and toilet water.
> -Water can be treated by using 8 drops of bleach per gallon. Boiling is good if you have enough fuel.
> Light
> -Kerosene\hurricane lamps are the best. Have one for each person and a gallon of fuel for each. This will be enough for the 30 day scenario.
> -Small LED lanterns and flash lights can be used for personal needs or task specific lighting.
> -Generators are great, but very expensive to buy and feed! If you're rich, go for it!
> Heat
> -Do not use a camp stove for heat in an unventilated room. They do make "indoor-rated" propane heaters now. Get a couple of those and enough fuel for limited use. Warm clothing and bedding will do for most situations
> -In a pinch, a large soup pot will make an emergency fire place if you can hunker down in the garage and vent the smoke out a window. Having a few of those man-made fire logs on hand wouldn't hurt.
> Protection
> Extra Stuff
> -Batteries
> -Matches
> -Disposable lighters
> -Cell phone charger
> -Radio
> -Waterless soap
> -Toilet paper
> These tips will help you to get started quickly.





LittleFire said:


> Not a bad list to start with for sure. I like it! If you live up North, like I do, make sure you have also a sleeping bag that is good to go below freezing for if you are not near a source of heat, this will come quite welcoming. Have one for every member of the family. And you can never go wrong with some tarps also....





Bravo_12v said:


> Something I would like to add but it seem most people over look is fire starters, I almost forgot about this simple child entertainment candles. "Trick" candles are designed to not be blown out by wind. So in a down to the last match if you light one of these you stand a better chance of starting a survival fire.





vondonna said:


> I know this is an old thread, but I'm new to this board (and to prepping).
> I, too, am on a very tight budget. I lost my job of 20 years in this economy. Scary stuff. Because of my very limited budget I've been scouring the web for ideas of what to use/save that would be useful if the SHTF. One of the items that is free is that I save all of my dryer lint in ziplock bags.. it's free and it's an excellent firestarter.





MsSage said:


> -Ziplock bags are a must....if you have to leave they are great for soaking beans while you travel then they are ready to cook that night.
> -extra can openers LOL
> I know alot say you have to be ready to move...well I am that lil ol lady who will die with her chickens LOL the last time I will move will be when we move to Idaho....if that never happens then I have this place which is mine...I have room for my horses, dogs, chickens with no restrictions, and a nice size garden. Only problem is water.... Biggest item is my JOB which is here.





Fn/Form said:


> The pure cotton lint burns well. The lint from synthetics... not so much.





sailaway said:


> As I've gone from age 44 to 48, my eyes have been changing. I haven't been for an eye exam due to no insurance, so I have several pair of drug store reading glasses. Keep at least one pair in your BOB and and another pair in your safe place.


And last, but not least, 


Goblin said:


> -12ga pump shotgun for the house.
> -A hi-cap concealable pistol.





doc66 said:


> -The 12 gauge shotgun.
> -A military-based rifle.
> -A Pistol Caliber Carbine.





sundevilkid said:


> -A 12 gauge, especially if you are using the 18" barrel.
> -My 9, but not my wife's(keeping in mind that I personally would like to own the Remingtion 870 express with the short barrel and 7 + 1 loader).





turkeydog said:


> -The 20 gauge.
> -The Mossberg 500
> -The Remington 870.





Dantedog said:


> -The Taurus 3" .410 magnum pistol.
> -A 12 gauge.
> -The good Remington 870.





BillM said:


> -A 12 gage or high powered rifle.





mojo4 said:


> -A .22.





MsSage said:


> -My 357 rifle.
> -38's
> -The ar.


I don't know what was said after that. I was getting tired and still had to gather up some leaves to sleep on.


----------



## Katurner55

I would like to store water in some extra plastic containers. How/what is the best way to keep them "fresh"? or at least drinkable after several weeks to months.


----------



## Fn/Form

JoKing said:


> Don't blame the gun toters for the thread congestion. If Goblin would have made an "OUTLINE" instead of a "BULLETlist", then you would only have do deal with the professional rope handlers(out line) clogging up the thread, and they're always too tied up to comment....


LOL

I just wish we could keep threads on topic instead of having to deal with bull. But that's life.

I've been working up a mean, gargantuan list project. I think I have my basic categories nailed down, now. Will share soon.


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## Katurner55

I read through the rest of this thread and..wow. Not quite ready to get a gun but I am interested in some more simple prepper ideas. Like how to keep stored water fresh for long periods of time. Also which canned meat is best for long time storage. Can we talk about this kind of stuff? Thanks


----------



## goshengirl

Fn/Form said:


> Will share soon.


Much appreciated!


----------



## defaultCharacter

This is an old thread, but I'm adding my two cents for Katurner55.

1) Water. I found a good reference I've used for storing my own water; according to what I've read, it will last indefinitely if stored correctly (in proper container, sealed, away from sun, with bleach).

http://beprepared.com/article.asp?ai=1235

Gallon jugs that you buy water in will deteriorate eventually. I learned this the hard way, when a few I had cracked in my garage, and leaked out all over the floor (after about 4 years). Buy some good water storage containers.

2) As far as canned meat for long term storage. I just go by the expiration date on the can. I don't think it is good to stock up on canned food for long term storage because they only last a couple of years (and always store canned food in a cool/dark area). But if you store food you regularly eat, you could rotate it.

The same web site I link to above has some canned freeze-dried & dehydrated food, including meat dishes, which will last up to 25 years or so. It's pretty expensive though.


----------



## LincTex

There aren't any excuses to not have at least one or two (preferably more) blue 55-gallon water barrels filled on site. I see them for sale every day for $5 each. Some of mine had vinegar, some had corn syrup, some had raisin juice in them.

Also, make sure you use one barrel to make a bio-sand filter with. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BioSand_Filter
TREATING water to make it drinkable is even more important than storing water.

I have canned hams, corned beef, Vienna sausages, and SPAM that have dates back to 2006, and none have gone bad at all. I do rotate out the oldest ones first, but if the can isn't swelled and still smells good when opened, they are 100% okay to eat.


----------



## Tjaway6

I've been getting 5 gallon pails from Home Depot. They only cost $3 here in Wisconsin. For another $1.27 I got compression fit covers. $2 for covers with a rubber seal. I haven't been able to find a bakery that let's their 5 gal. pails go for free. I add mylar bags to store grain in. Pre-packaged foods and cans go right in. I can carry two pails with 25 pounds of grain in each no problem. However, a 50 pound sack of corn is a pain to carry - poor balance! I feel they are a great size to store long term goods in. Be sure to label and date them!

I like it when folks provide quantities along with their storage items. Even if it's an educated guess, it's better than nothing. This is a process. A big one for a single person or even a family. One doesn't want to forget some gear that will be critical after the SHTF, or run out of something too soon. It's tough. An astronaut, John Glenn I think, was asked "If you had thirty seconds before your space capsule blew up, what would you do?" He replied "I would think about what to do for 25 seconds and do it during the last 5 seconds." Fortunetly, we have the advantage of more time, but the task is no less daunting. That's why we read these blogs and threads. Forewarned is forearmmed. Long and short of it is THINK ABOUT IT and tell us what you think. Just as the long term goal is to survive and rebuild OUR SOCIETY, this communication will help us all plan.


----------



## valannb22

LincTex said:


> There aren't any excuses to not have at least one or two (preferably more) blue 55-gallon water barrels filled on site. I see them for sale every day for $5 each. Some of mine had vinegar, some had corn syrup, some had raisin juice in them.
> 
> Also, make sure you use one barrel to make a bio-sand filter with. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BioSand_Filter
> TREATING water to make it drinkable is even more important than storing water.
> 
> I have canned hams, corned beef, Vienna sausages, and SPAM that have dates back to 2006, and none have gone bad at all. I do rotate out the oldest ones first, but if the can isn't swelled and still smells good when opened, they are 100% okay to eat.


Where are you finding the barrels for $5? I have only seen some online for a whole lot more.


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## Magus

McDonald's and other fast food joints give away barrels and buckets.


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## urbanprepper

Also a "North of the boarder prepper" here, i would also like to add good, quick drying clothes (thermals if you have them)

Something that you may want to try, that costs hardly anything, is turning old egg cartons into firestarters (add about 1-2 cotton balls, some saw dust, or drier lint) and cover about 2/3 of the way with paraffin wax, these burn really easily, and the added cotton, helps get a decent fire for your tinder.


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## LongRider

Goblin said:


> These tips will help you to get started quickly.


Another critical essential is a comprehensive first aid kit with back ups of any medication family members rely one. Be sure they stay current. And sanitation never under estimate the value of TP or soap.

Also training, skills sets; first aid, bush craft skills, fishing, hunting, self defense, fire arms courses, gardening, canning food preservation to mention but a few. Skills will always over come material goods


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## defaultCharacter

valannb22 & linctex --

No way would McDonald's even have 55 gal BLUE barrels for water to store food, let alone sell them for $5 each.

Best price I've seen on line is about $70 delivered at emergencyessentials.com. I've seen them at the local Sportsmans Warehouse for $55. 

Blue barrels are special because they are purported to store water for long periods of time, given the right conditions.

Wherever you get food buckets, in 5 gallon (not 55 gallon) capacity, make sure they are FOOD grade. I doubt that Home Depot has FOOD grade, you'd have to check the code on the bottom of the barrel and verify (and not sure what these codes are -- google works). You can get used buckets from grocery stores/restaurants too, that used to have food in them. That's what I'd go for were I to buy used buckets.

I bought a bunch of new buckets at Lowe's, and like an idiot, didn't check the code on the bottom. I was unable to determine if food would be safe in them or not, and since they smelled horribly like plastic (I think they were paint buckets, really), I opted to not use them. I'd rather spend $6 extra than to die of some issue in 15 years when I need the food I stored in them.


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## goshengirl

valannb22 said:


> Where are you finding the barrels for $5? I have only seen some online for a whole lot more.


Check on craigslist for used ones. Make sure they previously had food in them. I get mine from a winery that previously had flavorings in them - peach, amaretto, cherry... They clean out just fine. I pay $10 from this source, but I've seen some for $7 (but would be a significantly longer drive for me).


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## Ration-AL

my local surplus store sells them for 17.99 new, blue 55 gallon rain drums, i see no point though as the longest period in history without rain was 56 days , that coupled with all of the lakes and rivers water is always a surplus in my area .....call jerrys surplus in Lynwood,wa and see if they will ship....


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## Cingetorex

It takes practice for any firearm to be an effective weapon . Be it handgun, shotgun, or rifle.
Weapons will fail if not properly maintained, I have heard the Glock will tolerate low maintanance and stlll be reliable, I dont know first hand, always kept mine clean.
I prefer turkey loads in my 7 round defender shotgun. I also have a .45 auto and an MP 15 S & W . 
Yes a shotgun is limited . you empty it then drop it and reach for your secondary weapon . But for combat inside a residence , when all shooters are stressed, and hurried a shotgun might come out on top.


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## prepare_survive_thrive

runt1 said:


> sorry not trying to start anything but what he is trying to say is that his wife is not the best shoot and yes if she get's the aim closes there going down I have any gun you can think of and been hunting all my life my kid's all hunt with me my wife does sometimes not as much as i would like .and yes 223 is a very nice gun but harder for some one to hit a target than a shotgun and if you shoot at someone with ethter I don't think they will hang around to tell you if you hit them or not


Having seen the aftermath of an accidental discharge of twelve gauge birdshot inside a house go through two walls and a fiberglass shower I will say Im a firm believer in the stopping power of said shot. Not my choice in firearms but they do the job. So I definitely agree.


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## Oldpagan

I understand this is an old post that has come back to life, and I would like to share a bit about myself before I express my opinion concerning the shotgun verses the m4 carbine.

My stepfather was a Vietnam vet and a gun collector, where most guys grew up on cars I grew up on guns, I joined the army right out of high school and did 6 years, and after that got into law enforcement and have 28 years under my belt, 2 more and I’m done. I know guns and have a lot of them.

That said, I have both the Remington 870 12 gauge, and a colt M4 carbine in my squad car. Both have their own uses, both pro and con. For distance shooting and multiple targets at distance I’ll use the M4. For close quarters combat I’ll use the 870 (for anything from 15 yards and closer). Folks forget that most 00buck rounds are 9 pellet rounds, 9-30 caliber pellets. At 10 yards or less, clothing, coats (leather or not) are not stopping those pellets. In a quick pitched fight 3 00buck rounds is 27 of these pellets going down range faster than you can pull the trigger on an M4 to get 27 rounds into the fight.

It was asked why law enforcement is going to “patrol rifles” and moving away from shotguns? Several reasons, the ability to fire a round farther with more precision shot placement, the intimidation factor (some cop steps out with an M4 and folks take it more serious that a shotgun). And the new toy factor, its cool so lets get one.

As I have stated, I carry both. In my opinion based on my experiences for most applications the shotgun wins hands down. Add to that the fact that with different loads you can hunt small game and fowl as well and it’s a better rounded weapon for the homesteader & post SHTF.

Just my opinions, that and a dollar might get you a cup of coffee in most diners…

Oldpagan


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## LincTex

valannb22 said:


> Where are you finding the barrels for $5? I have only seen some online for a whole lot more.


The ones for $5 were old soap barrels from a self-serve car wash.

I once had a friend at a very large bakery, and I got "food-grade" vinegar and raisin juice barrels from him for free. I do see those on Craigslist for $10.


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## JayJay

~~In a pinch, a large soup pot will make an emergency fire place if you can hunker down in the garage and vent the smoke out a window. Having a few of those man-made fire logs on hand wouldn't hurt~~

Newspapers rolled around a pvc pipe make a paper log that burns for 15 minutes if you are in a garage with open window, etc.
I have started a box of those.
I used packaging tape to hold mine when it reached sufficient thinkness..easy, and effective.
Nice, free, 14 inch logs.


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