# The Government when SHTF



## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Many here talk about the coming economic collapse. Many think it will be TEOTWAWKI. I do not quite agree. Our gov is not that stupid, they know what is coming and have specific plans for it. The power grid will not totally go down as the gov will force(if necessary) power plant workers to go to their jobs. Troops will be in/around all larger cities to "keep order" and "provide safety". Martial law will be in force. Travel anywhere will be severely limited to "approved" reasons only. Any resistance will be met with over-whelming force. I'm not saying it will last but it will for a while. Those in power will not willingly give up that power. When the EBT cards quit working and a "bank holiday" is announced things will get bad. I could see them allowing riots for awhile to show how bad it is and then declare martial law to "protect the citizens". They will commandeer all farms, all distribution centers, all trucking, all refineries, all commercial fishing vessels, everything that they will require for the "continued well being of the population". All airports will be for military use only. Only very few select fuel stations will be open and closely monitored. They will totally control all forms of media. They will most likely keep saying this will continue only for a very limited time. I can only hope that I have it all wrong. Maybe a massive solar flare would be a better choice?


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

I dont really see teotwawki either. At least I hope not. I see world wide depression with hyperinflation, increased crime, a greater prevalence of new and old diseases, and stricter governmental control in response. Leg bone connected to the hip bone kinda thing. I dont think it will hit the US as hard but it will feel like it as the babied majority can no longer get their lowfat soy slpenda extra shot lattes everytime they leave the house and freak out.


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## kejmack (May 17, 2011)

I totally agree. To think that the government has not made some preparations is naiive. Greenbriar has the Underground White House. There are several "secret" government facilities in Fauquier county, VA. The government has a "continuation" plan in place. It started during the Cold War as a measure of National Security.


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

Everything stated so far is TEOTWAWKI.

Sure uncle sam can commandeer everything but wth will he do with it? He can take the farms but he can't begin to run them. He couldn't even begin to milk the cows. There are plenty of wage slaves out there but when those wages won't buy 'em anything they'll quit too.

How they going to fund anything in a hyperinflation scenario? Not being able to borrow? Spending borrowed money is all he knows.


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

hiwall said:


> They will commandeer all farms, all distribution centers, all trucking, all refineries, all commercial fishing vessels, everything that they will require for the "continued well being of the population".


I respectfully disagree.

Farms & fishing vessels are too labor-intensive. If they take these, the owners/employees won't work so it's counter-productive. I 'think' it'll be more of a trade of food for fuel/security. Then they'll use food & fuel to control the population.

I see PackerBacker somewhat agrees with me.

I do see some sort of a barter economy.


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

hiwall said:


> Many here talk about the coming economic collapse. Many think it will be TEOTWAWKI. I do not quite agree. Our gov is not that stupid, they know what is coming and have specific plans for it. The power grid will not totally go down as the gov will force(if necessary) power plant workers to go to their jobs. Troops will be in/around all larger cities to "keep order" and "provide safety". Martial law will be in force. Travel anywhere will be severely limited to "approved" reasons only. Any resistance will be met with over-whelming force. I'm not saying it will last but it will for a while. Those in power will not willingly give up that power. When the EBT cards quit working and a "bank holiday" is announced things will get bad. I could see them allowing riots for awhile to show how bad it is and then declare martial law to "protect the citizens". They will commandeer all farms, all distribution centers, all trucking, all refineries, all commercial fishing vessels, everything that they will require for the "continued well being of the population". All airports will be for military use only. Only very few select fuel stations will be open and closely monitored. They will totally control all forms of media. They will most likely keep saying this will continue only for a very limited time. I can only hope that I have it all wrong. Maybe a massive solar flare would be a better choice?


What you describe requires a literal army of workers to implement. These workers will have to be pulled from existing ranks. They'll have to do jobs, (commandeering, imposing Martial Law, etc) that they've never done before, they'll need to be paid.

If the system breaks down then the immediate problem for the government leaders is to find ways to keep that army of workers on the job and paid.

The government is now so bloated with so many ineffective affirmative action hires that it is dysfunctional and your plan calls for these government workers to be competent. Most of the competent people in this nation work outside of government. An Army of Dunces is going to have a hard time outsmarting the population and that's assuming that the leadership can expropriate enough riches from the land in order to pay these dunces to stay on the job.


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## pawpaw (Dec 21, 2011)

"Maybe a massive solar flare would be a better choice?"
I agree. If the gubmint was as disabled as the citizenry, at least the laws of nature would be at work- not the laws of gubmint "Of the gubmint, by the gubmint, & for the gubmint" would be into play. The quality of life for any survivor would be greatly simplified; survive- not comply. Humans as a species are inherently decent beings, self governing by the reality of the times.
(Crap- I bet I can't fly or buy a gun now...)


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## CulexPipiens (Nov 17, 2010)

Argentina. Stuff gets bad, government gets more and more oppressive, life still goes on as does multiple economies (regular, barter, black market, etc.).


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## Outpost (Nov 26, 2012)

hiwall said:


> Our gov is not that stupid, they know what is coming and have specific plans for it. The power grid will not totally go down as the gov will force(if necessary) power plant workers to go to their jobs.


(some portions deleted for bandwidth)

@hiwall,

I'm very much inclined to agree with your assessment / question.

It almost looks (to me) as though you've just read Executive Order 13603.

Each point of takeover that you mentioned is distinctly addressed in a variety of E.O.s, 13603 is the latest of that genre. (then again, the fuhrer writes faster than I do, so there may be more by the time I'm done writing this)

There's absolutely no question in (what's left of) my mind, that our economy is doomed. We are engaged in expenditure that is quite simply unsustainable. Something has to give, and it will be the subjects of this once great land. Under the various E.O.s and laws (yep... even Congress has done it to us), the government has the authority to re-task anyone with a skill that is needed, as well as redistribute individually held food assets and other resources.

The *REAL* question, to my way of thinking, is _"can they pull it off?"_

For a time, I believe they can, but only for a time.

Anyone can be made to perform tasks they do not want to perform simply by promising them subsistence. In an economic _'crisis"_, there won't be any money in anyone's pocket to pay their taxes or mortgage, and the banks (of course) will be foreclosing on everything in sight in order to offset the asset losses. Even for those who rent, someone owns the apartment building. The fuhrer will have to nationalize housing, energy and agriculture. In many cases historically, simply instilling a fear for the welfare of one's family can be more than adequate. I can't remember the estimated numbers, but there were a *great many* Nazi soldiers fighting on the front lines solely because they were afraid for their families should they refuse. In fact, that was the *provided* motivation for Rommel to kill himself. He was promised that if he took his own life, his family would be *"taken care of, properly"*. Should he refuse or fail to take his own life, he was promised that his family would be *"taken care of, properly"*. There are far more methods of motivation than simply offering a paycheck.

but....

Considering the sheer number of people that would have to be provided for, and considering the sheer number of people who would spend every waking moment of their lives making the government's life miserable (namely *WE*), makes me wonder if they could pull it off for any real length of time, or just postpone the complete collapse of their power-structure.

As for a solar flare, well, if it's anything that falls short of a record-breaker, It will probably end up being nothing more than a severe pain in the @$$.



$.02


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

I guess when I said commandeer things like a farm, I really meant commandeer the people and products. Obviously the gov can not operate anything, just force others to do so. And I so hope I am wrong!


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

hiwall said:


> I guess when I said commandeer things like a farm, I really meant commandeer the people and products. Obviously the gov can not operate anything, just force others to do so. And I so hope I am wrong!


I fail to see how they are going to force a farmer to farm. Even if they do they won't be productive.


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

I have no doubt at all that the Government has a plan or in fact ALOT of plans. I also see our government as stupid and inept and totally underestimating what WE THE PEOPLE really are capable of once we have been messed over that one time too many. I think anything the Govt has planned or will try to do will fall apart faster than they can duct tape it back together. And will fall flat on it's face in short order. But Im sure they will kill off a hell of a bunch of us before they quit trying to implement their falure of a plan. I figur enot to be a drain on them I also don't figure to be effed with by them either kinda a leave me alone and I won't ask for anything. At least until the real fight begins when troops of the UN or some other forein entity attempt to "come to the rescue" There is a square in my town I will not see it renamed tiananmen square. Nor will I have JBT's in my house telling me jack crap. I figure the govt will flop probably within a couple three months and we will be fighting to get things cleaned up and starting a rebuild from that point on.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

Yeah. The key is to make it through the "adjustment" period as we all (gov included) come to grips with the new reality and figure out how to move forward from it. Its at that point where all honest armed and fed individuals will hopefully have enough influence to make sure we move forward in the right direction. Unless the gov just pisses everyone off to the point where that is rushed of course. Hope not.


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## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

I just read a book on this very subject... Yes it was fiction - the right to bare arms. Good read, with some interesting concepts...

There is something missing from the comments above. If we default, it will cause other countries to spiral downward to... Unlike ever before, not the Great Depression or other countries having their own great depressions - Russia or Argentina... This will be a global situation... With a global depression, a quick resolve would be to hit the reset button on everyone's debt... But I don't see that happening... I can see wars potentially starting over a global depression. 

As mentioned, two words - martial law. What is one of the first things they will want to do under martial law? Yes I believe it will be to outlaw guns. I think the moment that happens you are going to see something similar to a civil war.. Only this time, it won't be N vs S or E vs W... It will be neighbor vs neighbor, friend vs friend in every city, etc

The other thing is, if Obama is the one who kicks in martial law, I think it would eventually also start a war... Simply because most who don't support him, feel he is wanting to become a dictator... So there would be no reason for him to lift martial law... That alone would cause a lot of buzz...


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

PackerBacker said:


> I fail to see how they are going to force a farmer to farm. Even if they do they won't be productive.


I recall stories from my Dad about rationing during WW2.
_For the most part,_ farmers were exempt from fuel rationing and some of the other rationing programs so that they could continue to work and produce food.

I foresee something similar in an economic meltdown situation unless the government loses control. Even then, certain states like TX and a few others will probably step up and provide for farmers/ranchers *as long as the distribution network is workable.* For those states without significant oil resources or refineries, it will likely be a different story altogether.

All those federal EOs are fine and dandy *unless they try to take property from people without compensation or chits.* Farmers may burn their crops instead of seeing the Feds confiscate them without some sort of payment. Why? Because they'll be wiped out financially either way and would probably prefer not to help JBTs in their power grab. I don't think IOUs/chits are going to pass muster either unless the Feds force banks to accept them as legal tender for loan payments.

The Feds can confiscate all they want, but if the combine doesn't run, the wheat will rot in the fields.


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## Griff (Jan 12, 2013)

hiwall said:


> Many here talk about the coming economic collapse. Many think it will be TEOTWAWKI. I do not quite agree. Our gov is not that stupid, they know what is coming and have specific plans for it. Snip....


The government? I think we give them too much credit. For example, I find it ironic and endlessly amusing that politicians write laws which gut our freedoms, then expect us to enforce them on ourselves. Ask yourself where the real power lies.


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## Jarhead0311 (Sep 17, 2010)

hiwall said:


> Many here talk about the coming economic collapse. Many think it will be *TEOTWAWKI*. I do not quite agree. Our gov is not that stupid, they know what is coming and have specific plans for it. The power grid will not totally go down as the gov will force(if necessary) power plant workers to go to their jobs. Troops will be in/around all larger cities to "keep order" and "provide safety". Martial law will be in force. Travel anywhere will be severely limited to "approved" reasons only. Any resistance will be met with over-whelming force. I'm not saying it will last but it will for a while. Those in power will not willingly give up that power. When the EBT cards quit working and a "bank holiday" is announced things will get bad. I could see them allowing riots for awhile to show how bad it is and then declare martial law to "protect the citizens". They will commandeer all farms, all distribution centers, all trucking, all refineries, all commercial fishing vessels, everything that they will require for the "continued well being of the population". All airports will be for military use only. Only very few select fuel stations will be open and closely monitored. They will totally control all forms of media. They will most likely keep saying this will continue only for a very limited time. I can only hope that I have it all wrong. Maybe a massive solar flare would be a better choice?


TEOTWAWKI The end of the world as we know it....*as we know it* not the end of the world. If what you describe is not the end of the world as you  know it is certainly the end as I know it.


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## Ezmerelda (Oct 17, 2010)

PackerBacker said:


> I fail to see how they are going to force a farmer to farm. Even if they do they won't be productive.


Exactly right. How do we know? We've seen it before:

Think back to the Russian Revolution - they killed the Czar and his family, instituted a Communist government, nationalized everything, and food production, really, all production went down.

Why? Everyone, every farm, every factory, every worker in every field and industry, received the same wages. The hard workers realized that their increased efforts brought them no additional rewards, so they slowed down and began mimicking the layabouts all around them.

In the scenario on this thread, I see production slowing down as people realize the scrip isn't really worth anything. Those who can, who know how, will find ways to raise food - guerrilla gardening, you might say, so they can feed their families. Their efforts will go into looking after their own. What they give the gov will be make work and lip service, a la the Russian peasantry once they realized that the glorious revolution didn't change squat for them.


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

> The hard workers realized that their increased efforts brought them no additional rewards, so they slowed down and began mimicking the layabouts all around them.


Already seeing alot of this think union jobs and state or fed jobs. Already like that, in fact being a conspicuos worker will get you screwed over by those who are afraid you are trying to show them up.


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

I think it would wind up being a combination of two things: 
1) We would see the government treating the people very much like the medieval peasant class, with the military of various ranks acting as lords and administrators, and,
2) The military would wind up acting much the same as the Roman legions, serving in whatever capacity they were needed. This could include operating utilities, building roads and maintaining infrastructure, etcetera.

Those are my educated guesses as a student of history.


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## RevWC (Mar 28, 2011)

Turtle said:


> I think it would wind up being a combination of two things:
> 1) We would see the government treating the people very much like the medieval peasant class, with the military of various ranks acting as lords and administrators, and,
> 2) The military would wind up acting much the same as the Roman legions, serving in whatever capacity they were needed. This could include operating utilities, building roads and maintaining infrastructure, etcetera.
> 
> Those are my educated guesses as a student of history.


I think you are right to a certain degree. I don't think our current military will do this, however look at North Korea, the military does what they do to feed their families. I don't think our current military will put up with a dictator.. The Monarchy can and probably will create a new "military". Hell, Stalin starved millions of people! History repeats itself..


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

RevWC said:


> I don't think our current military will put up with a dictator.. The Monarchy can and probably will create a new "military". Hell, Stalin starved millions of people! History repeats itself..


If the private economy is a shambles and a soldiers personal well-being depends on being on the side of government, which has the power to extract the resources it wants in order to keep functioning (meaning that the soldier's paycheck, in whatever form it takes, is dependable and better than the private sector) then it's going to take an awfully well developed sense of ethics to intentionally harm yourself and your family in order to "do the right thing" by resigning from the military and allowing your spot to go to someone who will follow the orders given.


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## Griff (Jan 12, 2013)

Most of the military (rank and file, if you will) understand and support constitutional rights and freedoms for citizens. We've had the opportunity to study the successes and failures of Romans, Greeks, British, Ottoman Turks, Chinese, Soviets, Mongols, Huns, Germanics, Franks, Celts, and many other great empires. Those who ignore history are bound to repeat its mistakes. The rest of us build on available knowledge.

Don't make the mistake of expecting our Soldiers to turn into mindless brute squads, regardless of motivation. We fully understand the nature of power, and take strong measures to guard against its abuse.


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

PackerBacker said:


> Everything stated so far is TEOTWAWKI.
> 
> Sure uncle sam can commandeer everything but wth will he do with it? He can take the farms but he can't begin to run them. He couldn't even begin to milk the cows. There are plenty of wage slaves out there but when those wages won't buy 'em anything they'll quit too.
> 
> How they going to fund anything in a hyperinflation scenario? Not being able to borrow? Spending borrowed money is all he knows.


They will come and take yours.Read Agenda 21 about hoarding.


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## cqp33 (Apr 2, 2012)

Those in the military that will bolt at the first sign of any stupid move on behalf of the Government will be replaced by, what are they called? The new "civilian" militia being created by o blah blah. Once they bolt they will be put on a list and eventually arrested, this is the only way they could continue to push the agenda. EX military might get messed with too, that way the ability to train any force against the guberment would be limited at best. my $.02


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

So maybe through luck and/or planning the gov takes total control. Or the gov is totally over-its-head with the troubles and does basically nothing. And citizens lose either way.


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## Attila (Jan 30, 2011)

The powers that be will only be able to control the big cities and they really won't control them for long. They'll attempt to concentrate power in metro areas, but as the entitlement parasites start running out of food and water, they'll rampage. The parasites will kill each over for a while, and then it will start to boil over to outside areas. When that happens, it will get worse. The guys in uniform on the front lines will start to bug out for home as it goes from bad to worse because they all have families and responsibilities, or at least most of them will. In the end those currently controlling the power will lose it because it will come crumbling down around their ears at some point.


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

Meerkat said:


> They will come and take yours.Read Agenda 21 about hoarding.


Take what?


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## Jarhead0311 (Sep 17, 2010)

Griff said:


> Don't make the mistake of expecting our Soldiers to turn into mindless brute squads, regardless of motivation. We fully understand the nature of power, and take strong measures to guard against its abuse.


Don't make the mistake of expecting our Soldiers *not *to turn into mindless brute squads. I would like to believe otherwise but history proves you wrong.


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## pandamonium (Feb 6, 2011)

I don't see the scenario in the OP being feasible. Just looking at the numbers, there aren't enough military, police feds etc, to pull off a complete takeover of everything in the continental U.S., Martial Law or not. What would said military, police, feds, be paid with, Worthless fiat money? Threats to family? I think very few of our LEOs and military folk would go so far as to murder women and children, AMERICAN WOMEN AND CHILDREN, just because some asshat tells them to.What would they eat? Do you think the gov has enough MREs to feed all of them? Because they will be hard pressed to get anything from people they just put in a pen! They (the gov), may have a plan, they may have super-secret fortified,stocked bunkers, but how many citizens would, instead of looking to them for help, instead, blame them for the situation they are in, since truly, an economic collapse could only be faulted to those that make the economic policies to begin with!! Plus, these effers would have to come out eventually!!! :club:

Not only all that, can these jack`asses in office even do ANYTHING competently/efficiently??


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

hiwall said:


> Many here talk about the coming economic collapse. Many think it will be TEOTWAWKI. I do not quite agree. Our gov is not that stupid, they know what is coming and have specific plans for it. The power grid will not totally go down as the gov will force(if necessary) power plant workers to go to their jobs. Troops will be in/around all larger cities to "keep order" and "provide safety". Martial law will be in force. Travel anywhere will be severely limited to "approved" reasons only. Any resistance will be met with over-whelming force. I'm not saying it will last but it will for a while. Those in power will not willingly give up that power. When the EBT cards quit working and a "bank holiday" is announced things will get bad. I could see them allowing riots for awhile to show how bad it is and then declare martial law to "protect the citizens". They will commandeer all farms, all distribution centers, all trucking, all refineries, all commercial fishing vessels, everything that they will require for the "continued well being of the population". All airports will be for military use only. Only very few select fuel stations will be open and closely monitored. They will totally control all forms of media. They will most likely keep saying this will continue only for a very limited time. I can only hope that I have it all wrong. Maybe a massive solar flare would be a better choice?


I agree that the government knows it's coming and they're preparing for it. One of the things they're preparing for is the collapse of the dollar. We're going to have hyperinflation like Germany had in the 1920s. Once food costs go high enough millions of people will starve. The electrical grid will go down nationwide when people can't afford their $4,000 or $40,000 or $1 million electric bills. At some point the government will regain control of the country and we'll live in a police state forever.


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## Griff (Jan 12, 2013)

Jarhead0311 said:


> Don't make the mistake of expecting our Soldiers *not *to turn into mindless brute squads. I would like to believe otherwise but history proves you wrong.


Did you take an oath, Sir?


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Griff said:


> Did you take an oath, Sir?


Any oath is only as good as the man taking it.


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## baklava (Jan 30, 2013)

pandamonium said:


> I think very few of our LEOs and military folk would go so far as to murder women and children, AMERICAN WOMEN AND CHILDREN, just because some asshat tells them to.
> ...
> Not only all that, can these jack`asses in office even do ANYTHING competently/efficiently??


Look up the following:
Milgram experiment
Branch Davidians
Ruby Ridge

Government can be competent at a few things; usually those things involve that government's continuation.

As someone already said, what has happened before will happen again. Or, as President Truman said, "there is nothing new in the world except the history you do not know."
http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/stalin.htm

Note how the farmers' refusal to cooperate played into Stalin's hand; it gave him both the excuse and the means to exterminate them.


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## Jarhead0311 (Sep 17, 2010)

Griff said:


> Did you take an oath, Sir?


Yes I have, but don't forget the bonus riots where the army attacked veterans for demanding what the government had promised them. World War I vets being attacked by the military. If troops can be ordered to turn on their own they can be ordered to turn on anyone. I believe they will use white troops against blacks, black troops against whites north against south and so on.



> After the cavalry charged, the infantry, with fixed bayonets and adamsite gas, an arsenical vomiting agent, entered the camps, evicting veterans, families, and camp followers. The veterans fled across the Anacostia River to their largest camp


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## Griff (Jan 12, 2013)

Good points, Sir. You've obviously put a great amount of thought and research into this. As I've said, though, I like to think that those of us who chose to do so can learn from the past. In that light, I suppose its up to us to keep our word to protect the people of our great nation from harm, even if it comes from those who would be their masters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_oath


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

hiwall said:


> Any oath is only as good as the man taking it.


I Totally agree


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## HamiltonFelix (Oct 11, 2011)

The argument of whether our troops will fire on Americans goes on and on. And while some are Oath Keepers these days, one fact remains: If fired upon, they *will* fire back. Armed resistance to a martial law checkpoint or a squad confiscating resources _will_ provoke military response.

Russian troops let Yeltsin face them down in 1991 because they were local troops. But in Tiananmen Square in 1989, troops from other distant provinces were happy to murder thousands of students. If you want something to worry about, consider that Barry Soetoro, Wahhabist Muslim, is very likely to use U.N. "Peacekeepers" if things get rough.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

Ruby Ridge and Waco were FBI not the military. Kent State on the other hand, was military. Some will follow orders and others will honor their oath. Dozens of high ranking officers have been forced out of the service recently, I wonder why. Could they be oath keepers? There has been some open opposition to the president from both current and ex military. Ex military openly expressing political dissent does not surprise me but the serving military openly speaking out is a big no-no. 

These recent exercises could be to get our servicemen used to going against us, or the exercises could be to intimidate the citizens. They could also be for the stated purpose. Certainly there are some serious indications but not all of them are bad.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

All politicians in Washington take an oath. It seems to mean nothing to them.


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## Utahnprepper (Jan 29, 2013)

Sorry if this has already been asked, but I need peoples "realistic" guess on how the US will be after the collapse. Are we thinkin a country like "the postman"? Or what?


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

Utahnprepper said:


> Sorry if this has already been asked, but I need peoples "realistic" guess on how the US will be after the collapse. Are we thinkin a country like "the postman"?


For TEOTWAWKI, yes like the Postaman


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

TheLazyL said:


> For TEOTWAWKI, yes like the Postaman


I hope I can find a town run by Tom Petty!


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## Utahnprepper (Jan 29, 2013)

Well in that case I call dibs on delivering the mail...good way to stay fat.


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## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

Utahnprepper said:


> Sorry if this has already been asked, but I need peoples "realistic" guess on how the US will be after the collapse. Are we thinkin a country like "the postman"? Or what?


I think it will depend upon the scenario and what happens exactly... If we see uncontrollable inflation, while the dollor spirals down to zero.. then all prices are going to go up... food, electricity, gas, etc... If businesses can't collect money for products and services they can't pay their workers, if the workers can't receive wages for hours worked, then they can't pay for items either...

As the 47% closes in on (what I call) the "magic number" (which I think is) 51%, we will start to see the inflation start to gain momentium. Unless the government gets "smart" and declares bankruptcy - followed on by a long controlled recessionary period, it will all go to hell. Which, no elected official wants "pain" for his voters... So, they will look for ways to prevent this, but will only kick the can down the street as much as possible.

I see a slow spiral happening...It has already started, high unemployment, general costs going up, devaluation of the dollar, movement to have more government control, etc...

What has me also concerned beyond the fiscal irresponsibility of the leadership in DC, is the food producing side that few really look at anymore. I am not talking about the ratio of food producers to workers - which has dropped from high 40% during the 1900s to less than 2% today... yes that is a concern, but living in the current model, what I am talking about is something that isn't being said is there is a potential for a farming bubble equal to those late 70's... from agweb.com -

"They're (large-scale producers) in reasonably good shape right now, as a group, but farmers in the late 1970s thought they were in reasonably good shape, too," says Allen Featherstone, a Kansas State University ag economist who is quick to add that he does not predict a downward spiral in either commodity prices or land values.

Featherstone's biggest surprise from the study is the debt-to-asset ratio of Kansas farmers is higher today than it was in 1979 (see "Are Black Swans on the Horizon," September 2012 issue), with a disproportionate amount of that debt held by the largest farms. The mean debt-to-asset ratio in 1979 was 24.6% and in 2011 it was 25.5%​
My point is here he is saying there is a risk for farms selling $1M+ in sales due to their debt, yet he is not willing to predict a downward spiral... I call this to be BS, cause he wouldn't mention it if it wasn't a Risk, and when dealing with Risk Management, any risk but be addressed.

Now most of us on this board know to buy non-hybrid seeds - I now have close to 750,000 of them... but if you go out an look at the seeds packs at WalMart, Home Depot, Lowes, etc... they aren't the non-hybrid kinds... So, you have joe or jane amerthican - seeing prices goin through the roof, bills getting larger, income staying the same or lowering, I do see more turning back to growing some of their own food over the next couple of years...

Joe & Jane American now becomes Joe & Jane Gardener who may have a now be planting a decent size garden or are a part of a co-op, their work is helping keep them fed, yet wherea re they getting their seeds? Home Depot, Lowes, etc... So as the economy goes further down the drain, they may run out and buy next years needed seeds ahead of time... fine, but what is their garden looking like after the first year harvest??? Especially if the dollar does crash, and gas prices double or triple?

I am starting to see two waves... The first wave will be those who don't prepare - are a part of the 47-51% - who majority live in the inner cities... I see as their checks stop coming in, and government assistance slowly withdrawling - I see rioting starting... but I also see those who live in the suburbs who have gardens the past yeaer, maybe having a way to live through the first 2-5 months of riots, surviving only to find out that the seeds they bought from Lowes and Home Depot, only providing 1 season of growth... then I see the second wave hitting...

One of my barter items - yep... non-hybred seeds...


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Utahnprepper said:


> Sorry if this has already been asked, but I need peoples "realistic" guess on how the US will be after the collapse. Are we thinkin a country like "the postman"? Or what?


You realize this would just be a wild guess from anyone? And that it would likely be changing alot(almost day-by-day) for at least the first two years(guess). I keep changing my mind, I once thought complete lawlessness(at least for awhile). Now I think the gov will keep control. But it is anyone's guess.


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## emilysometimes (Oct 6, 2011)

Turtle said:


> I hope I can find a town run by Tom Petty!


I'll settle for a town run by Willie Nelson


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

emilysometimes said:


> I'll settle for a town run by Willie Nelson


True enough! Or Ted Nugent!


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## HamiltonFelix (Oct 11, 2011)

If it's economic collapse, increasing tyranny, increasing government "appropriation of resources," anything not prohibited is mandatory and that includes personal travel. Some of our troops will not fire on Americans (until fired upon), but Barry's U.N. "Peacekeepers" will. Drones will. 

If it's EMP, then 90% of us starve in the first year, after which the Chinese move in and practice a little genocide.


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

Utahnprepper said:


> Sorry if this has already been asked, but I need peoples "realistic" guess on how the US will be after the collapse. Are we thinkin a country like "the postman"? Or what?


Barring a total collapse what we're likely to face is a steady ratcheting up of oppression which isolates and removes those who oppose the new oppressive tactics at each step.

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Catholic.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.​
The goal here, for the elite, is to have what is left of society, to not disrupt the lives of the elite no matter what hardships are placed on the common man. If you protest about the increasing cost of food then you are putting a spotlight on the illegitimacy of the system and you are dangerous and like an infection you must be isolated in order to preserve the health of a system which the elites run.

So barring a complete collapse the goal of the system will be to sustain itself by whatever means are necessary and criticism of the system and those who run it will be seen as a dire threat to them.

A healthy functioning system can take the body-blows of criticism but a weakened system cannot.


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## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

hiwall said:


> You realize this would just be a wild guess from anyone? And that it would likely be changing alot(almost day-by-day) for at least the first two years(guess). I keep changing my mind, I once thought complete lawlessness(at least for awhile). Now I think the gov will keep control. But it is anyone's guess.


I agree it will be anyone's guess until it happens... I don't see government taking control though... How many gun owners versus military? I see them trying to concentrate on major cities - LA, NY, DC, Chicago, etc... I don't have the statistics (and too lazy to look up) but my guess is that is probably close to 70%+ of the entitlement checks go to the top 10 metro areas... When those entitlement checks can't buy the food for 2 weeks, let alone a month, gas prices double or triple, we will see just how lawless major cities will become. The concept Uncle Sam can control every major city (say top 15) with its armed forces is a pipe dream IMO... We have seen two separate responses from FEMA over the last 10 years... What I heard last week, there are people on the East Coast still having issues... So, even with FEMA rolling in to NY, LA, Chicago, etc... I don't see how they have enough manpower to "control" all the major cities, let alone all the medium sized ones... They can control the national highways, sure, but not every small road that crosses state lines and such.... Look at the top 4 metropolitan cities - 50,000,000 people... Active and reserve total what 3,000,000? If they pull the draft active, yeah sure, they might have enough, but will they have the supplies to feed and cloth 50,000,000 troops?


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

invision said:


> When those entitlement checks can't buy the food for 2 weeks, let alone a month, gas prices double or triple, we will see just how lawless major cities will become.


If the choice is between lawlessness of the hordes or squeezing you with higher taxes, say 70% and higher marginal tax rates, which road you think will be taken?


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## rrussell250 (Jan 31, 2013)

hiwall said:


> You realize this would just be a wild guess from anyone? And that it would likely be changing alot(almost day-by-day) for at least the first two years(guess). I keep changing my mind, I once thought complete lawlessness(at least for awhile). Now I think the gov will keep control. But it is anyone's guess.


My experience with hurricanes is that when the power goes out everyone runs to get gasoline water and food. All stores will be out of stock in about 3-5 days. FEMA is useless and only makes things worse by concentrating the masses. Stay away from crowds and the government "helpers". At the first sign of trouble for us is to get the hell away from people you don't know. Gather supplies and get somewhere that is not affected by the storm and let the craziness play out miles away from where you and your family are.


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## Jarhead0311 (Sep 17, 2010)

Caribou said:


> Ruby Ridge and Waco were FBI not the military. Kent State on the other hand, was military. Some will follow orders and others will honor their oath. Dozens of high ranking officers have been forced out of the service recently, I wonder why. Could they be oath keepers? There has been some open opposition to the president from both current and ex military. Ex military openly expressing political dissent does not surprise me but the serving military openly speaking out is a big no-no.


Soldiers follow orders, if someone in authority tells them to stand down they will, if someone that they respect points out that what they are doing is wrong some will act appropriately otherwise most will follow orders and maybe question their actions later. Soldiers are human, and like all humans, act different in groups than they do individually, if the others open up they will too.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

One possible scenario is the gov just waits a little while for some of the population to die. Then move in and have less people to control and the ones left would likely "want" the gov to take control.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

Jarhead0311 said:


> Don't make the mistake of expecting our Soldiers *not *to turn into mindless brute squads. I would like to believe otherwise but history proves you wrong.


Nazi soldiers were asked in hearings after WW II why they did what they did and their answer was "I was just doing my job." I've talked to a lot of young and old soldiers and basically are saying it may be about 50/50. I've always said that when one is feed, clothed and has shelter provided to them that are more likely to follow orders, good or bad.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

hiwall said:


> Any oath is only as good as the man taking it.


Exactly. The only ones I'd really trust is the Oath Keepers and even then there are factors that can change ones thinking when under duress.


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## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

Bobbb said:


> If the choice is between lawlessness of the hordes or squeezing you with higher taxes, say 70% and higher marginal tax rates, which road you think will be taken?


Keep squeezing and see where it gets you is my answer..

I am at the highest tax rate already, unfortunately - I got hit with not only the 2% income tax, but I get to pay even more taxes now with the $450,000 or higher rule... Is it going to hurt - hell yes... will I pay it? yes for now... but if it gets higher, I will probably have to look at other options. If you look at the top income earners, it can't be sustained.. fortunately for my business is virtual. The vendors I deal with to support my business are global providers. So, I can move my business to Ireland farely easily, while retaining my US based customers - it's just a few attorney filings. In addition, I could then start looking for clients there as well...

I would hate to leave this country, but this country doesn't really have much to offer anymore does it? What happens when the highest tax payers just walk away and leave? - it's happening... I know 4 individuals who are building in Costa Rica - with a move date in 3 years... It seems more and more are talking about it openly too.

What happens then Bobbb? Do you agree to pay more or do you leave??? Would love to know your thoughts on this...


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## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

It is happening in France now. As the taxes go up on the rich folk, they just leave the country.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Woody said:


> It is happening in France now. As the taxes go up on the rich folk, they just leave the country.


Many are leaving California for this reason.


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## Griff (Jan 12, 2013)

So, if you were going to hide something, where would the best place be? Where no one would ever look for it; in plain sight. (This may be "common sense" for many here, but turns out to be quite suprising to those who never question convention.) 

Given that, do you suppose that many who answer "yes" may really mean "not no, but hell no"? My experience tells me that this is often the case, especially in the middle of those social engineering / annual training classes we all look forward to. Peer pressure 101. Ask yourself who's publicly in charge right now. Does it fit?

I don't ask these questions or bring up unpopular points to get a rise out of anybody. That would be a cheap shot. Instead, I'd rather let you know that there are more of us out there than you know. We share the same values and convictions. Just not gonna yell them from the rooftops until the time is right, regardless of what you'd like to hear. 

Keep your chin up, OK?


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