# Staying at home vs bug out.



## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

Am trying to locate a BLO, but until I can acquire the land, building, etc... I would be staying where I live.

What would be the best way to defend? I am thinking basement.

I live 35 miles away from Atlanta, yes it is a suburb, but it's a 10 minute drive through country/horse farms just to McDees. The backyard opens to 45 acres of woods with plenty of deer, the land I live on itself is flat and more that 1.5 acres. The basement is a daylight on 2 sides, and is 3000 sq ft. My big concern would be securing it in SHTF scenario... 

I am thinking secure the area where it isn't open to doors/windows, reinforce inner doors and the two coming from stairs. I have two rooms that are 3 side concrete walls. Build a 4th wall with reinforced door to that area, sorta like a 1500 sq ft secure room. Add someway to ventilate and use wood stove for cooking?? 

Suggestions?


----------



## turkeydog (Jan 23, 2012)

make the bugout location your actual home if at all possible. may require a career change though, unless you are a "work from home" kind of person. Luckily for me, my career allowed me to promote and transfer back to my home. where is my home? right where everyone in all these survival shows is planning on running to.....deep in the mountains. so all i have to do is sit tight and take care of myself and family. no running or bugging. just warning people to stay away 1 warning shot at a time.


----------



## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

Fortifying may be the wrong way to go about it. No matter what ya do if they are determined they will either get in or burn ya out. Fortifying may allow you to take more of em with ya though. Sounds like you have enough space for a "hideyhole". Instead of fortifying maybe focus on a spot where you and yours can be invisable with preps. A buried reinforced shipping container with a well concealed entrance might be the ticket. I live north of Atl as well. The hordes will come north cause thats where the loot is. Just my opinion.


----------



## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

invision, I understand the reasoning of your plan. And I can somewhat agree with it. I assume that the "safe room" would be just that, a last stand, "you can't get me" room. You would want to try repel bad guys so you never had to use that room. Once you lock yourself in you are putting all your trust in the thought that the bad guys will admit defeat and just move somewhere else with easier pickings. They will get in if they really want to. I would want a concealed exit.


----------



## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

Crack Bottom Louis - I agree they will all come north, i75 will be Marietta/Canton hit, i85 Duluth, and Roswell/Alpharetta on Ga400. I think we are actually pretty good, we are actually in a pretty isolated spot in Milton. It's 15 minutes to Alpharetta, 15 to Roswell, 15 minutes to Canton. Although there are several high end neighborhoods around me - White Columns, the Manor, Blue Vally and Echelon to name a few... But they aren't really known to Atlanta city like CC of the South or the Windward CC areas... If 90% are on foot, I doubt we would see much in regards to the gangs that would form... Everyone thinks the high end of Alpharetta/Milton to be on East side of 400 not the west. And if it takes 15 minutes to get to 400 driving 50 mph, doubt people would really walk this way into country, where instead they would track north straight up to Dahlongia. or do you think differently?

The way I would see building out the basement would to make it look smaller, like only the daylight area was built out,,, with cinder block walls making up two large areas that are joined together... The hard part would be creating passage in and out. 

Don't think a shipping container buried in the back yard would be ok'd by city... Hell it took a week to get standard horse fence ok'd... That included providing a rendering, drawings, and everything under the sun.... Also why we haven't put in a pool either, to damn bureaucratic to get permits.


----------



## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

invision said:


> Crack Bottom Louis - I agree they will all come north, i75 will be Marietta/Canton hit, i85 Duluth, and Roswell/Alpharetta on Ga400. I think we are actually pretty good, we are actually in a pretty isolated spot in Milton. It's 15 minutes to Alpharetta, 15 to Roswell, 15 minutes to Canton. Although there are several high end neighborhoods around me - White Columns, the Manor, Blue Vally and Echelon to name a few... But they aren't really known to Atlanta city like CC of the South or the Windward CC areas... If 90% are on foot, I doubt we would see much in regards to the gangs that would form... Everyone thinks the high end of Alpharetta/Milton to be on East side of 400 not the west. And if it takes 15 minutes to get to 400 driving 50 mph, doubt people would really walk this way into country, where instead they would track north straight up to Dahlongia. or do you think differently?
> 
> The way I would see building out the basement would to make it look smaller, like only the daylight area was built out,,, with cinder block walls making up two large areas that are joined together... The hard part would be creating passage in and out.
> 
> Don't think a shipping container buried in the back yard would be ok'd by city... Hell it took a week to get standard horse fence ok'd... That included providing a rendering, drawings, and everything under the sun.... Also why we haven't put in a pool either, to damn bureaucratic to get permits.


I know Milton. Nice spot. In woodstock/kennesaw myself. I agree with your out of the way assessment. However, there are a lot of nice houses on land out your way and most of em have a good bit of curb appeal. I think building out a room not easily noticed in your basement is a good idea. My opinion is if I have to get in a firefight its a last ditch effort and I messed up enough to get in it. Invisibility and situational awareness is my post shtf plan. I really hope it works. A camping stove rigged to hook to propane tanks would be my bet for cutting the smoke factor. If you are on septic (ithink that area is) you could even have a toilet down there as long you had flushing water. If im not wrong you can have a well out there as long as its not for drinking water. I would probably be shocking the water with bleach and purifying before drinking it though. Have fun with the project. I just hope things hold together long enough for me to finish up my current project and head a little north


----------



## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

Buddy a safe room only works when you just have to stay alive till the cops show up. There wont be 911 so never seal yourself in. Mobility equals life. Im not advocating a andonment either.... I plan on leaving my BOV gassed up and loaded up pointing out if overwhelming forces approach. Stay until its time to leave.


----------



## kejmack (May 17, 2011)

Instead of fortifying, why not work on making your place look like it isn't worth the trouble or there isn't anything worth fighting over? All "they" have to do is set your house on fire and you're stuck in the basement being burned alive. 

You might be better off to cache some of your preps and hide others.


----------



## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Almost all homes are tactical nightmares to defend. They just are not set-up for defense and most really can not be made defensible. My house could never be made very defensible. If you are in the country and have a fair amount of acreage with your house mostly centered or situated on high ground, you are the exception. I would try to defend my home but I know the limitations. Think how you would attack your own home or ask a friend/relative how they would attack your home. Then try to come up with a defense plan for every attack plan.


----------



## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

Kejmack, yes we would rank sack the house when TSHTF... Not before  

This wouldn't be long term, this would be until it is more safe to travel... Right now the bov would be a armada but if EMP, screwed until we could chase down some horses in surrounding farms....


----------



## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

Unless you r planning on staying in your saferoom for a good solid year- year and a half the scenarios I envision wont allow for safer travel. Hopefully im wrong. However i think it will take a couple weeks for the new reality to settle in with most folks. Have you considered looking at some more remote areas of state parks as possible bol's? Not the best option but something to consider and explore before shtf if you cant afford a permanent spot at the moment. I like to take off the beaten path campin trips keepin an eye out for nice spots when time allows. Being able to drive close to a spot like that would certainly help.


----------



## kejmack (May 17, 2011)

invision said:


> Right now the bov would be a armada but if EMP, screwed until we could chase down some horses in surrounding farms....


If you or anyone else came to "chase down" my horses, you will be shot. I don't know where people on this forum get the idea that they can go over to someone else property and take it. I see posts like this all the time.


----------



## Jimmy24 (Apr 20, 2011)

Luckly, I'm in a "strategically located" (trying to be PC) place of my choosing. Is that an option for you at all?

I'm about 85 miles north of New Orleans, I'm forunate to live in a community that pretty much thinks the same as I do. We are maybe 20 families. 

There are ways to slow the hordes down, even when they still can get fuel. There are ways to deny outsiders the roads. And still keep enough road for your needs.

We will stand around here and not leave, but if I was much closer, I would be packed all the time, with a "strategic location" to go to.

JMWAG

Jimmy


----------



## teotwaki (Aug 31, 2010)

kejmack said:


> If you or anyone else came to "chase down" my horses, you will be shot. I don't know where people on this forum get the idea that they can go over to someone else property and take it. I see posts like this all the time.


One thing that I don't see is that in addition to storing consumables and personal gear folks should be storing goods for barter. Extra jackets, canteens, knives, .22 ammo or whatever. Things that the unprepared may be in dire need of and willing to trade their fuel or other materials that you'll want extra of.

As for the main topic my answer is to prep with my neighbors, know our fields of fire and commit to support each other. Most houses in SoCal cannot be successfully defended on their own due to the urban density.


----------



## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

Around us are a ton of stables, many of the horses in the stables are owned by people closer to or are in the city... The likelihood that they would all come for their horses would be slim. I never meant to imply stealing them, we would attempt to barter for them, seeds, ammo, gold, or silver.


----------



## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

Part of my storage is for barter, I agree needing both items you need and duplicates for barter will be needed. 

I was told this yesterday that I have a BOL in north ga, a cabin on 60 acres near a national park with 4 other families, I shared my prep list with a buddy and was immediately ask to meet the group. Not because I had so much, but because from the looks of it, I am as prepared and serious as they are... 

Now the question how to get 100 miles north if SHTF...


----------



## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

just curious, do you know anything about horses? can you saddle them, know how much weight they can carry in how much time at what pace? can you feed and water them? keep them from running off when you set camp, or running off while you're on them? getting thrown off and breaking your arm or leg or a few ribs in the process is going to really suck in the PAW.

And just because you make a deal with Joe Schmoe the stable hand doesnt mean he has color of law to sell them. You may find yourself in the position where you're now in possession of stolen property. Depending on how bad it gets, that could be bad for you. Think about Katrina and some of the things that happened there. now imagine it much much worse.

Anyway, it's also very likely there wont be any horses when you get there to the stables. The stable hands who may not care all that much about ownership may just decide riding home with a meal (almost) ready to eat is way better than walking home 10 or 15 miles with nothing to show for it.


----------



## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

invision said:


> Part of my storage is for barter, I agree needing both items you need and duplicates for barter will be needed.
> 
> I was told this yesterday that I have a BOL in north ga, a cabin on 60 acres near a national park with 4 other families, I shared my prep list with a buddy and was immediately ask to meet the group. Not because I had so much, but because from the looks of it, I am as prepared and serious as they are...
> 
> Now the question how to get 100 miles north if SHTF...


An emp scenario bad enough to take out vehicles is not the most likely scenario. Still good to be prepared for it however. I dont know the age of your smaller family members but walking 60 miles would most likely be difficult. Especially when avoiding roads. Remember roads are for people who like to be ambushed. Maybe prcticing a family hobby of hiking/ mountain biking on the weekends? I would also look for maps that show utility easements (cut lanes for power lanes) and map out several alternative routes. Roads for vehicles, none roads for horses, bikes, boots. Hike your path one long weekend so you can plan for the worst case scenario. By yourself with no secirity concerns 20 miles a day is not unreasonable. Remember, moving tactically along easements at night with family in toe you will be hittin apprx 5 miles a day in my opinion. Can your family make a 12 day hike? Practice is fun on weekends. I suggest starting practice on app trail. Springer to woody gap a good starting point.


----------



## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

invision said:


> but if EMP, screwed until we could chase down some horses in surrounding farms....


Git yerself an old 70's model 4WD Ford or Chevy for $500. Fill the tank full to the top with Sta-Bil gas, run the carb dry, and get a spare HEI module and spare alternator.

Done.


----------



## Resto (Sep 7, 2012)

I live in the county down here my property is surrounded by block walls. When I bought the place, I inserted rebar down the center of the blocks, raised the hieght 2' and filled the space inside the blocks with cement. Even the most persistent Zombies will have to cross open ground to reach the house, then its fish in a barrel. Ill move the bodies outside the wall and put up plague warning signs (most idiots wont figure it out). I have a plan to place any carrcasses out side the property up to 200 yards to make it look believable. Im staying home when TSHTF for at least 90 days before ventureing off the property. I have a safe room, nasty dogs and plenty of ammo.

Yup Im like that.


----------



## Resto (Sep 7, 2012)

LincTex said:


> Git yerself an old 70's model 4WD Ford or Chevy for $500. Fill the tank full to the top with Sta-Bil gas, run the carb dry, and get a spare HEI module and spare alternator.
> 
> Done.


Turn your garage into a faraday cage or store your spare parts, including Radio in one.


----------



## teotwaki (Aug 31, 2010)

Dakine said:


> just curious, do you know anything about horses? can you saddle them, know how much weight they can carry in how much time at what pace? can you feed and water them? keep them from running off when you set camp, or running off while you're on them? getting thrown off and breaking your arm or leg or a few ribs in the process is going to really suck in the PAW.
> 
> And just because you make a deal with Joe Schmoe the stable hand doesnt mean he has color of law to sell them. You may find yourself in the position where you're now in possession of stolen property. Depending on how bad it gets, that could be bad for you. Think about Katrina and some of the things that happened there. now imagine it much much worse.
> 
> Anyway, it's also very likely there wont be any horses when you get there to the stables. The stable hands who may not care all that much about ownership may just decide riding home with a meal (almost) ready to eat is way better than walking home 10 or 15 miles with nothing to show for it.


I think that you have a lot of good points. To flesh things out a bit further it is likely that the horse owners owe money on room & board so the stable owners might be free to keep or trade away the "abandoned horses". In fact, it just occurred to me while typing that something of the sort is probably already in the rental contract.


----------



## Londoner (Aug 24, 2012)

*INVISIBLE *is the word you must take to your heart. Make yourself totally invisible. They will ransack houses because they are hungry. They will torch houses because they are angry and afraid.

Work and think invisible, totally and absolute. Think how to disappear. ----------------gone

If they can see you they will kill you


----------



## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Londoner said:


> If they can see you they will kill you


Not if you kill them first.


----------



## kejmack (May 17, 2011)

invision said:


> Around us are a ton of stables, many of the horses in the stables are owned by people closer to or are in the city... The likelihood that they would all come for their horses would be slim. I never meant to imply stealing them, we would attempt to barter for them, seeds, ammo, gold, or silver.


How are you going to barter if the owner isn't there? Plus, if there is an EMP, horses will be worth their weight in gold. My horses are members of the family and I will not be trading for them. I have prepped for them as much as myself.

Do you even know how to ride and care for a horse? Only one of my horses is a beginner horse. The other two would probably kill you.

I am constantly amazed at how many people on this site do not have a REALISTIC plan. Stealing horses is right up there with the people who think they are going to head to the woods and "live off the land".


----------



## kejmack (May 17, 2011)

And another thought, the reason we are PREPPERS is so that we won't have to steal someone else's stuff when the SHTF. The whole idea is to be prepared.


----------



## teotwaki (Aug 31, 2010)

kejmack said:


> I am constantly amazed at how many people on this site do not have a REALISTIC plan. Stealing horses is right up there with the people who think they are going to head to the woods and "live off the land".


I can top that. People who plan to go to the harbor, steal a sailboat and sail "somewhere else" 

We could have a whole thread on this topic!


----------



## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

invision said:


> Around us are a ton of stables, many of the horses in the stables are owned by people closer to or are in the city... The likelihood that they would all come for their horses would be slim. I never meant to imply stealing them, we would attempt to barter for them, seeds, ammo, gold, or silver.


Some of the Christian's here never read Lk 14:5, and make no exception to the commandment thou shalt not steal. I personally have always believed that when property is abandoned by its owner, like a horse, it is better to keep it alive and appropriate it so that it can be put to good use, rather than allowing it to be wasted out of slavish adherence to the letter of the law.

I do not think it is immoral for a care-taker to put a horse that they can not feed or use to good use by "selling" or bartering it to someone who might feed one or more families with that horse. It's legal status, can be worked out in the interest of justice if and when the owner attempts to claim his property and/or the rule of law is restored.

Similarly, and I know I am going to get bashed (as I have before) for this, a CORPORATION which can only exist as a legal fiction, can't exist without the rule of law, and so I believe scavaging materials from non-persons (legal persons) is not stealing.

As I have said before, more than 50% of prepping is mental preparedness and enlarging our moral awareness from generally true moralisms to universally true moral laws that encompass even extreme situations.


----------



## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

The right to private property, acquired by work or received from others by inheritance or gift, does not do away with the original gift of the earth to the whole of mankind. the universal destination of goods remains primordial, even if the promotion of the common good requires respect for the right to private property and its exercise.

Thus, In his use of things man should regard the external goods he legitimately owns not merely as exclusive to himself but common to others also, in the sense that they can benefit others as well as himself." 

Therefore to steal means to take what is in the possession of another unjustly, not SIMPLY the taking of what someone has. If someone has ill-gotten goods no one would dispute their confiscation, but is it not true, that if all things are ultimately a gift from God meant for the common good, when one can not claim their property or use it, they justly can not expect others in grave need from using it?


----------



## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

Padre said:


> Similarly, and I know I am going to get bashed (as I have before) for this, a CORPORATION which can only exist as a legal fiction, can't exist without the rule of law, and so I believe scavaging materials from non-persons (legal persons) is not stealing.


And you wonder that you've been bashed for this "convenient" fiction of yours? Hey, let's try a new tack. Churches are also creations of government/society in that they too are not real persons, so it should be fine to walk into a Catholic Church during a mass that is being held to calm the faithful during very troubling times and simply take the money in the collection plate as well as any candlesticks or paintings or other items that one may think are helpful to one's survival.

Heck, why not simply commandeer a church and make it a base of operations. Kick out the priest because, you know, he personally doesn't own the church and the buildings that are on the church ground.

The ball is in your court.


----------



## TheRiver (Mar 31, 2012)

Padre said:


> Similarly, and I know I am going to get bashed (as I have before) for this, a CORPORATION which can only exist as a legal fiction, can't exist without the rule of law, and so I believe scavaging materials from non-persons (legal persons) is not stealing. situations.


It is not "fiction" that a group of people can join together in a common interest. That is what a corporation is. Stealing from them is stealing from many people at one time. Your argument is the same excuse shoplifters use. Looting is looting if you are going to do it, do it and quit feeling guilty. Some are looters and some are prepers.


----------



## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

Padre said:


> Some of the Christian's here never read Lk 14:5, and make no exception to the commandment thou shalt not steal. I personally have always believed that when property is abandoned by its owner, like a horse, it is better to keep it alive and appropriate it so that it can be put to good use, rather than allowing it to be wasted out of slavish adherence to the letter of the law.
> 
> I do not think it is immoral for a care-taker to put a horse that they can not feed or use to good use by "selling" or bartering it to someone who might feed one or more families with that horse. It's legal status, can be worked out in the interest of justice if and when the owner attempts to claim his property and/or the rule of law is restored.
> 
> ...


I'm not really into arguing religious views, but I think you might be forcing a specific scenario into a religious view and justifying it with rationalization.

I'm not comfortable with the thought of granting freedom of thought to hired laborers who have no skin in the game but will be taking all of the profit, and then "letting the courts sort it out later". Your scenario seems very lopsided against the owners of the property who have entrusted the animals care and well being and now a guy who shovels horse apples and hauls hay can make decisions on ownership and cost to purchase? Whats to prevent this guy from making the decision it's time to put this plan into action when there's a 5.0 earthquake instead of some really serious event? The guy hauls crap in a wheelbarrow... I don't think selling the livestock is part of his job description or an excusable "act of good faith" when he decides it's convenient.

That's just me


----------



## TheRiver (Mar 31, 2012)

How did we go for the OP to trying to justify sacavaging?


----------



## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

OP went from the OP to this comment



invision said:


> Kejmack, yes we would rank sack the house when TSHTF... Not before
> 
> This wouldn't be long term, this would be until it is more safe to travel... Right now the bov would be a armada but if EMP, screwed until we could chase down some horses in surrounding farms....


on page 1, which pretty much made the thread go sideways into scavenging


----------



## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

Stealing is wrong. In the event that you absolutely have to scavenge I would at least try and make it as victimless as possible. With proper preparation this shouldnt be necessary. Until shtf you have time on your side.


----------



## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

Again, I didn't mean just walking up and taking. IMO, if something has been left abandoned or there is a way to barter for an item, then I don't believe that would be stealing. With all the horse stables around here, I highly doubt many if any have the means to support the live stock past a month at best. This is suburban Atlanta, not the rolling hills of KY... Food, straw, hay etc are trucked in frequently to the stables... They are not self sufficient. I don't see a way for them to care for all of their animals in a SHTF scenario, and many (I think) would be willing to trade (even their own) for a 30 day supply of freeze dried food or less.


----------



## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

invision said:


> Again, I didn't mean just walking up and taking. IMO, if something has been left abandoned or there is a way to barter for an item, then I don't believe that would be stealing. With all the horse stables around here, I highly doubt many if any have the means to support the live stock past a month at best. This is suburban Atlanta, not the rolling hills of KY... Food, straw, hay etc are trucked in frequently to the stables... They are not self sufficient. I don't see a way for them to care for all of their animals in a SHTF scenario, and many (I think) would be willing to trade (even their own) for a 30 day supply of freeze dried food or less.


I would guess alot of "pets" will just be released to fend for themselves. We will see the streets crowded with cats, dogs, horses, and gold fish.


----------



## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

invision said:


> Again, I didn't mean just walking up and taking. IMO, if something has been left abandoned or there is a way to barter for an item, then I don't believe that would be stealing. With all the horse stables around here, I highly doubt many if any have the means to support the live stock past a month at best. This is suburban Atlanta, not the rolling hills of KY... Food, straw, hay etc are trucked in frequently to the stables... They are not self sufficient. I don't see a way for them to care for all of their animals in a SHTF scenario, and many (I think) would be willing to trade (even their own) for a 30 day supply of freeze dried food or less.


well, lets say for the sake of argument that the prior comments weren't worded well and taken out of intended context. I still think there's basic flaws in your assumption about the horses. For example:

people that have horses probably have money, and lots of it. I dont know a lot of people with horses, but I do know a few, and they are not wanting for cash. So if it were a slow roll to the PAW, lets say, economic collapse and things start getting seriously ugly over a course of 2 weeks before the bottom drops out, these people have trucks and horse trailers, they will likely go pick up their horses and remove them from stables in the city and if they dont have room at home they'll bring them to a friends ranch. Easily done. At the same time they'll arrange for a truck load of hay (who else will be buying it?, at least very few others anyway I would imagine so the hay guys are going to sell as much as they can as fast as they can so they can turn that cash into money for their own needs)

Lets say the time frame is really fast, from normal to zombie day. Something like a terrorist strike with EMP as you mentioned before. Yeah okay, the horses are still alive, the chances of EMP knocking down owners trucks preventing them from getting them is a matter for some debate. Unshielded electronics will go poof, but trucks in garages or old trucks that some ranchers or their ranch hands may have might still be okay. I think national infrastructure is a lot more fragile than the random 73 chevy pickup still rolling around these days. So they may still have means of collecting their animals. Now, lets say they dont have the means, and you want to consider the horses "abandoned" (and in this scenario the owners are going to have the same problem, except they may be moving in a convoy with armed ranch hands helping them) Its just gotten really bad for everyone all at the same time! Moving from your house to the stables on foot is going to be very dangerous, especially for a proposition that there arent any horses to get, how would you even know?

now lets assume that you have or find a working vehicle to get you from the house to the stables, are you carrying all your bug out gear with you? or are you trying to get the horses come back and load up, and then go? How many horses do you need to carry your family and some supplies? If you go 2 riders per horse you know they're going to get fatigued faster right? that means more water and more food and more downtime for them to recover... what if you need 4 horses but can only get 2? now what? leave all your food and supplies in a pile for the nearest zombies to take? ride out with nothing but the clothes on your back or tell the wife, "i'll be back to get you in just a little bit, i'm going to go find more horses! stay here!" I dont see her going for that idea!  (what if someone comes up and think she's "abandoned"?)

PLUS!!! You still have all of the same problems/questions I asked earlier. Do you know how to feed them? Do you know how to keep them healthy and alive?

I don't. maybe you do...

In any event, I guess it's a possibility you could try to plan for, but the logistics dont really seem to be in your favor, plus that's assuming you make it through the madness of mob rioting and people just killing for S & G because there's no more law enforcement to stop them. The closer you are to major cities the more likely that is. Especially if your plan is bug out with months worth of freeze dried food on your backs walking or driving to stables.

I think you stand a much better chance buying an old jeep or pickup and fixing it up. it's not going to be truly offroad like a horse, but you wont have to walk 15 miles with all your stuff on your back getting to the stables, and you wont have to worry about getting shot going to get horses for sale which might not even exist, you can spend that time getting out of the city.

what I'm saying is it doesnt seem like the horse plan is thought through all that much. There's a lot of weak links in that chain and any one of them can break really easily and then you're going to be in a fix.


----------



## kejmack (May 17, 2011)

Stealing is NOT prepping. I don't care how you spin it. If your survival plan is nothing more than stealing from others you are not a prepper, you are a thug.


----------



## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

I've said it many times before and i'll say it again, stay in your home, once you leave there, you're just another refugee ripe for the picking and i don't care what kind of weapons you have. have all the windows covered with black plastic and half or 3/4 inch plywood. Have the doors locked down good so even a swat team couldn't get in, then stay behind it to comunicate or even give a wanna be break in person a sample of what you have if they keep coming. do have a good fire proof place in the basement in case someone has the brains to burn you out. have plenty of water and food there.


----------



## teotwaki (Aug 31, 2010)

kejmack said:


> Stealing is NOT prepping.  I don't care how you spin it. If your survival plan is nothing more than stealing from others you are not a prepper, you are a thug.


Have you actually asked him what the rest of his survival plan is or just assumed that the bit about the horses was all there was to it?


----------



## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

Dakine said:


> well, lets say for the sake of argument that the prior comments weren't worded well and taken out of intended context. I still think there's basic flaws in your assumption about the horses. For example:
> 
> people that have horses probably have money, and lots of it. I dont know a lot of people with horses, but I do know a few, and they are not wanting for cash. So if it were a slow roll to the PAW, lets say, economic collapse and things start getting seriously ugly over a course of 2 weeks before the bottom drops out, these people have trucks and horse trailers, they will likely go pick up their horses and remove them from stables in the city and if they dont have room at home they'll bring them to a friends ranch. Easily done. At the same time they'll arrange for a truck load of hay (who else will be buying it?, at least very few others anyway I would imagine so the hay guys are going to sell as much as they can as fast as they can so they can turn that cash into money for their own needs)
> 
> ...


Ok, it's a little obvious you don't know the area where I live. The average house is $1MM plus. These stables are all $10MM plus properties. The equipment on them, trucks and such are not old beaters, they are 2009 and newer. Some of the owners include people who don't live near here, such as Oprah who has a $10MM ranch, Shaq who just sold a 10 acre area, and one of the guitarist for L.Skynard who I have run into 2 or 3 times at the Publix.

From my house to the nearest stable is out the front door, down to the cul-de-sac and through less than an acre of public land then across the street and I am at the first one, walk either way to the next property and I am at two more.... If i am on my porch and look to the right, I can see the horses in the field across the street. So, I would walk down there and talk to the stable hands/owners - unarmed. My wife and I both have met several as we have asked permission to walk up to pet and feed carrots to them, since they are out. All have also said no problem. I know 3 people personally who have horses up here, none have a truck, all drive high end sports cars and or luxury sedans - if they move stables they higher it out. My 13 yr old daughter has a school friend whose dad just bought her a $30K jumper because she turned 14 as a birthday present...

Over course I am speaking EMP time, not financial collapse, finacial collapse, I have a way out... A big suv with enough gas to get me where I need to go. EMP time, I honestly don't know a single would in the area with a truck/suv that is older than 2 or 3 yrs max.... A couple of old muscle cars, but I can't see bugging out in my daughter's boyfriend's parent's 63 split windshield corvette LOL...

To answer another question, I grew up in farm country in Ohio, I have been around animals all my life. I have even helped with the delivery of baby cows, sheep, and other live stock. So, to answer your question, I know how to feed horses and take care of them, the only thing I haven't done is shod one. But I probably could if I read up on the subject...


----------



## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

well, if that's the area you live in, why not surprise your wife with a gift of a couple horses? seems like the stables are very close. then you'd have your own horses to ride at your convenience and you'd be set! And kejmack's comment about them being worth their weight in gold would be absolutely true, instead of leaving a couple horses behind you could sell them for who knows what in silver, gold or firearms

Yes you're right, I'm not familiar with GA at all, I've been to FL a couple times, lots of gators and snakes, no time to party with locals, was all business at the time.

I grew up around ranches in AZ, not on one. maybe things are different there, in the west old trucks still live on old ranches  yeah they have new ones too, but I dont expect that Shaq or Harpo were running around checking water troughs or dropping off hay bails, so it makes sense they drive new trucks when at that house.

So back to the question, seriously, why not get a couple horses of your own? Sounds like you've got the means...


----------



## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

kejmack said:


> Stealing is NOT prepping. I don't care how you spin it. If your survival plan is nothing more than stealing from others you are not a prepper, you are a thug.


Do you always make multiple topics you're wrong about?


----------



## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

Great question and I will answer honestly, but please don't think I am being a blow hard or egotistical, I will try to state this factually for all. 

Five or six years ago, sure no problem, I would have bought 3-4 horses and not thought about the expenses of upkeep and general ownership. Today, I live comfortably, I have the nice house, nice vehicles, and go to a casino once a month. I pay every bill I have and have little debt besides the car notes and house note. However, I have gone from the spend free attitude of I work hard so I play hard to a more conservative outlook financially. 

I look at things a little differently now because of two things:

1) I have seen my yearly net income take a $250,000 bath in part thanks to Obama and the economy. I still have a strong yearly revenue (according to Obama I am a 1%'er with my wife's income included), the decline in income is two part, first my client list has shrunk due to 4 bank failures and I did not renew a $175,000 a yr contract by choice. Also, I need to say i have not tried to replace the 5 clients which made up a profit of $250,000 a yr. This is because of part 2.

2) as mentioned elsewhere on this site, in Feb of this year I underwent a quad bypass for my 3rd HA in 6 yrs at age 41. I like my father have a negative score for good cholesterol and i have lived a very high stress work life for nearly 20 years. So I have made a conscious effort to cut back on the business side and the stress involved. I only go onsite 1-2 days a week max. I am not out their banging it for more customers like I once did. I refuse to work the 72 straight hours that I have been known to do. Instead, I do what I think is important for myself, i workout 4 days a week, read a ton, prep, shoot, and more importantly spend time with my family. I am an only child and one of those trust fund brats, but I have worked for everything I have in my life by choice. I love my parents dearly, but i want to be different from my dad, who at 72 still works everyday running his two companies for the almighty dollar. The difference is, I feel it is very important also to do other things like go on family vacations, watch my daughter sing the national anthem next week at the HS football game, enjoy life while i have one, etc.

In regards to my preparedness plan, let's say when I first joined here I didn't have one, except to head to the national forests or try to survive here. Today, I do have a couple of locations that I can head to with a group of like individuals from a variety of backgrounds including military and farming. The question is how to get there and that totally depends on the situation. EMP is where I have problems in transportation, however, I don't believe an EMP will cause the SHTF, I think it will be economic failure. In that case, it's pile in the SUV and go... Back roads all the way multiple routes.


----------



## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

I don't begrudge people what they've earned or worked for. As long as their actions don't deliberately or negligently cause me harm, I'm about as easy going as it gets.

You know, there's other options then you might think about, especially given your health problems. I realize from what you're posting that money is not the same as it was a few years back, both due to health and the policies of our current administration. 

have you considered buying an old 4x4 suburban and then getting it fixed up in top running condition? You dont have to park it out in front of the house where the neighbors might see it  You could park it at a storage lot or just tuck it in the garage under some tarps, who knows what. 

With your health problems, I wouldn't go borrowing trouble having to worry about setting tack on horses, hauling feed and water while your trying to make some cross country adventure to hook up with your group. Get out ASAP and move fast before it really hits the fan.

Another thing you should think about, since the BOL is already predetermined and your part of a group... go to Lowes, buy the large safe, fill it with some rifles and handguns and a couple thousand rounds of ammo, some silver and gold coins, and have it prepositioned at your BOL. That way if you have to come walking in with nothing but the clothes on your back, you still have money and protection waiting for you when you get there.

good luck... you should be reading my other posts by the way, you need an AED more than I do! Unless you already have an internal one, you should seriously consider buying one and making sure your family knows how to use it and do CPR. Wont help much in the PAW during a collapse, but we're not there yet.


----------



## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

kejmack said:


> Stealing is NOT prepping. I don't care how you spin it. If your survival plan is nothing more than stealing from others you are not a prepper, you are a thug.


I have heard comments in the past along the lines of: "I don't need to store any food, I have a gun and will just go get what I need"

Those folks are indeed thugs... and they will die at the muzzle of those who are fully aware there will be thugs running around trying to steal what they need to survive.

Some will succeed, but most will die - due to their ignorance and arrogance.


----------



## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

Thanks much appreciated. I know that I can come off as an ******* at time - it's the cause of being in the top left corner of the Type A personality grid. However, those who really know me though know I would give the shirt off my back to my friends and bend over backwards to help most anyone. 

As for the old truck/suv purchase. It is on my "list" but is near the bottom... But yeah that would be best over trying to barter for some horses... Nearest storage facility is 9+ miles away. I have a 3 car garage, but no way will the wife let me sell the Corvette Grand Sport or trade down in regards to the SUV. Also, when we got married 6 yrs ago, one of my toys that had to go was my 1975 Nova drag car, it was street legal but also a 10 sec quarter mile car... Could pop the front end a foot off the ground at a stop sign in street tires... But she wouldn't have it... Damn, I Miss that car 

One thing I also thought of is using bikes and the riding mower with the trailer... But it would be slow and noisy...

In regards to the heart, both my heart surgeon and cardiologist have no problem with heavy exercise or heavy weight training... When my dad has his bypass he was told never to lift more than 50lbs, when I got out of rehab two months after open heart, I was already pushing 175... Now my bench still sucks IMO since I can't seem to improve it much (235 max, use to be 455 in HS), my legs are excellent squatting 400+ in weight, so if I need to move or lift or whatever, I will give it all I can.

As for the heart machine, if I go down, I go down... It would be a good thing, but I personally think without a cardiologist to perform surgery again, I would be more of a hinderance upon my family in a SHTF scenario. 

My wife is not frail or afraid of guns, I know she would hate missing her pedi/mani's but can hold her own in strength and firing a weapon too...


----------



## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

In regards to the BOL, yeah that is a goal too. Right now everything but part of the silver/gold and some of the guns are in the basement, I keep my AR in the trunk of my daily driver, and the .40 goes with me in whatever vehicle I am in... I also have a 1/2 ounce of gold on me at all times (so does my wife) and around $300 face value pre-65 in each vehicle, not to mention regular jewelry we both wear...


----------



## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Dakine said:


> Have you considered buying an old 4x4 suburban and then getting it fixed up in top running condition? You don't have to park it out in front of the house where the neighbors might see it  You could park it at a storage lot or just tuck it in the garage under some tarps, who knows what.


Agreed... just make sure it is within a few miles so you can get to it. I would avoid storage lots... I would pay someone (a generous yet fair amount) to store it on their private property.



Dakine said:


> BOL is already predetermined and your part of a group... you still have money and protection waiting for you when you get there


Yes, maintain this well, just like an insurance policy.



Dakine said:


> You need an AED! you should seriously consider buying one and making sure your family knows how to use


I agree wholeheartedly. Keep a spare one in a Faraday cage.


----------

