# A thought about cover



## Padre

So its 0430 and I just finished a "walk" around my BOL. The sky is clear and the stars are beautiful and its pretty quiet out there. I got to thinking about the defenses I would like if the SHTF one day. One thing that has real frustrated me in my journey through prepping is the realization that concealment is not cover. Over the past years I have experimented with different materials and been shock by how good bullets, particularly mil-spec rifle rounds, are at getting through things. I have sand bags and I have even tried making my own bullet proof panels. Ceramic tile, can easily be made into level 1 or 2 plates, but if we are talking about TEOTWAWKI then we really need to be thinking level three or four. To this end I tried buying some steel, 1/2 inch thick, and wouldn't you know it just barely stopped M885 5.56 rounds. Of course there is AR500 (ar500armor.com) which is great and affordable, at least for plate carriers, but if you are thinking of bulletproofing your house, or a fighting position you likely would break the bank buying large panels of AR500. Coming in from the walk I took a shower and as I continued to think I thought about the hot water and how it would likely not work if the SHTF, which got me thinking about other things that might not work, things like fridges, washers, and dryers, etc. These large metal appliances have cavities on the inside, and even if they themselves were not bullet proof, filled with sand I bet they would provide some cover. Now it would have to be a real TEOTWAWKI for me to fill my appliances with sand and build barricades with them but this seems a viable option. I wish I could afford to bullet proof the whole place with ballistic panels, steel, or brick but for the moment there are too many other priorities.

What do you think of appliances as cover? Do you have other ideas?


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## Caribou

Short of filling them with sand appliances are not good cover. One option would be a tall planter running along one to four sides of the house. Sandbags have been used for a long time because they are cheap but anything to hold in the dirt.

A stone facia would help.


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## Ozarker

I think sand would end up in my food in the fridge and make it impossible to get clean clothes out of a washer or dryer. 

You can buy smashed cars at a junk yard and have them towed to your place, just stack a couple up and circle you house. Weld them together. Make sure there is no gas in the tanks. Fill the crevices with sand and concrete.

Paint the outside of you wall of steel in camo to blend the colors of your surroundings.

Build a 3 wood cylinder about two feet high and build 3 wood mock ups of mini guns, paint them flat black and mount them on top of your house, use glue and cardboard for the ammo belt fed from the base. Put one at each end of the house and one in the center. 

Next, build a wood mock up of an Abrams and have it in the wood line next to the house, painted appropriately.

Then, get an old large TV dish antenna, camo paint, put it on a tall metal tripod, this is your decoy for your air defense system. 

At the other side of your place from your tank, you need a flat bed with wood mock ups of your Hell-Fire launchers. 

I assume you already have a wire perimeter set up. Put you IEDs just inside the wire in the event the line is breached. THIS SIDE TOWARD ENEMY markings are important when building these in your garage! 

Make sure you have mock security cameras covering the inside and outside of the wire, don't forget the short piece of coat hanger painted for the antenna of each camera, this lets them know you're watching them.

Set up your stereo with some good outdoor speaker horns and put a looped player (tape, CD, flash drive, whatever). Record the second movement of Flight of the Valkyries. Test your sound system weekly for five minutes, very important, Sunday morning at 0700 is the best time. 
Full volume!

Final touches are bars on your windows and paint your front door to look like a bank vault door!

Then, just sit back and wait and drink your beer, wine or favorite intoxicating beverage with your AK or AR over you shoulder, dress appropriately, always have your boots on!

When the guys in the white uniforms show up in an ambulance, just be nice and go with them. They will take you to a big solid and well protected building where you will be totally safe, you may get your own padded room, which is where your like minded friends will be and belong!


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## LincTex

Hit up all your plumbing stores in the area and ask to haul away for free (or buy up) all their old water heaters. Fill them with rocks instead of sand or gravel and now you have some water storage, too! They are straight & uniform in shape, and you can tack weld them together with a little re-bar to keep the cover in the shape you desire.

You can only do so many places like this with *any* type of cover. No one really plans for or budgets for a "fortress"... but having some cover every 30-40 feet might be helpful!


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## jeff47041

LincTex said:


> Hit up all your plumbing stores in the area and ask to haul away for free (or buy up) all their old water heaters. Fill them with rocks instead of sand or gravel and now you have some water storage, too! They are straight & uniform in shape, and you can tack weld them together with a little re-bar to keep the cover in the shape you desire.
> 
> You can only do so many places like this with *any* type of cover. No one really plans for or budgets for a "fortress"... but having some cover every 30-40 feet might be helpful!


Great idea! I get several water heaters every year, and they are usually half full of lime already. Pain in the @$$ to get rid of because the scrapyard won't take them unless you cut the tank in half. ( I am allowed to take the old one back to the place I bought the new one, I usually don't)

I have 3 sitting in my scrap pile right now. I might give this a try. I have 2 sources where I could get a lot of these. Maybe welding a few together and making it so that I can move them into place with my bobcat forks when the time comes.


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## mosquitomountainman

As has been mentioned, it's difficult to build a fortress. The sand filled appliances will work. In a SHTF situation it might be best to concentrate first on "safe" rooms, corners, etc. rather than the whole house. Sandbags are still your best bet for ease of use and adaptability. You'll use a lot less sand that way. Sandbags are relatively cheap if you buy them in large lots and they store compactly until needed. (And may make some good bartering material if you have extras.) They also have the advantage of making good building "blocks" if you need an impromptu root cellar, etc. You can build small "fortifications" with them as needed too. I'm thinking of three sided bulletproof shelters about three feet high and maybe four to six feet square (or round) in strategic locations. Set some homemade "claymore" type mines (in strategic locations) that you can trigger remotely just in case hostile forces want to use them against you (also keep the backs of the shelters open towards the house). These make good forward observation posts with a little camo applied. If you put a "roof" over them they can be downright comfortable.

Rubble or stones piled loosely around buildings make a good barricade as well. Mix in some broken glass bottles and few people will want to scale them to get to the house's windows, etc.

Having the sand at the location and perhaps a tractor or something similar to move material will be a real asset. Sand is heavy and even in the sandbags it's difficult to move in large quantities. 

Incidentally, you can also use old feed or pet food bags in place of sandbags. Even plastic grocery bags will work in a pinch although they won't last long in the sun.

Don't forget to have some anti-grenade/security fence material to put over windows, etc. to make entry difficult and also make it difficult to toss in explosives. Old chain link fencing is good and easy to come by. You can also set up old chain link fencing with a space between them and fill the space with rocks, debris etc. You'll make an effective barricade and use a lot less rock than just piling it up. Again, keep the fencing, posts and debris close to where you'll need it.


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## Ozarker

If delusional dreams do come true (which I know some actually hope for in their minds), you need to get your tail away from the threat, not stand a slug it out. As Tex mentioned, look to your route out, you can find many things that will blend in with landscaping and terrain that can provide cover. Think of the old bounding overwatch movement, from spot to spot. You need to be able to move in several directions and interlock the cover so that along the way. at each spot, you have options. 

Need to worry (if you're going to worry anyway) more about concealment than cover, if you need cover you're already in a world of hurt with a superior force, if you aren't noticed you can hide away or walk out. 

Concealment beats cover any day. 

Do video games cause psychotic episodes? Or is it just a lack of maturity? I played Rat Patrol when I was a little kid, even wore by dad's butt pack and hat with my BB gun. I grew out of it. Then came my military service, last thing I want is to be taking cover. The glory of war is delusional thinking if you're an adult. Nothing wrong with asking about tactics or understanding what to do, but to set up highly unlikely scenarios and war strategies against zombies is an indication someone really needs a shrink. 

And, when you have a group of these types, you're the ones that become the threat to the sane, you will be the ones watched and if you get too out of line, your delusions will come true as you'll be the ones feared and taken out. 

I'm pretty sure that there are very few folks here, if any at all, that can defend any location of any kind against a well trained and equipped team, sooner or later you're dead, period. Nothing can be built that can not be breached. Build a box to crawl in with 3 foot steel walls and you just crawled in your oven when they light it up. 

Think in terms of not being detected, getting away quietly, think stealth, not standing in some blaze of glory. Those that need a fix need to fire up a video game.....maybe not, they may end up walking into some school as Rambo, see a shrink instead. If you're 11, have fun.


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## mosquitomountainman

Ozarker: I agree with most of what you've said but I also see a need for securing the home front as well. There may be times when it isn't an overwhelming force or it just makes sense to stick an issue out and having some good cover makes the difference between keeping or losing everything you've stored up. You can only bug out so many times before becoming a refugee.

A good refuge will often deter attackers and give them reasons to go somewhere else. It can also make you a target so you want cover but also want the "I don't have anything worth taking" appearance.

I'm very much against the bunker mentality for most of the reasons you've mentioned and I believe in fighting the battles as far from home as possible but when that's not possible then make them pay dearly for anything they think they'll gain.


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## VoorTrekker

An engineer in the L.A. basin took fiber glass resin and hardener and with the fiber glass cloth:

cloth coated with resin/hardener layer, cross weave the next piece of cloth and add it on top of the resin hardener like a sandwich.
Coat that with resin/hardener with another piece of fiber glass cloth on top.

Continue until one inch thick. Allow a few days to dry/harden. He said it stopped M2 ball (30'06) black tipped (armor piercing).

This could be made into bullet barriers three feet high along the length of a wall and the ceilings of first floor for the protection of the second floor three to six feet widths the length of the ceiling...

Just saying....


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## hiwall

Like I have said before building simple wood boxes six inches or so thick and filled with sand/dirt make excellent bullet stoppers. These can be fastened to your house and painted to match.


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## weedygarden

Padre, according to your profile, you live in Boston. If this is true, you have a different challenge than someone who lives off-grid in the wide open spaces of the west.

I agree that it is best to blend in with area and not to attract attention to your place.


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## hiwall

weedygarden, I think I disagree. If things are so bad people are shooting at Padre in Boston then people will likely be shooting at all of us no matter where we live (unless they can not find us). I rather doubt we will have a situation that is that bad but anything is possible.


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## Geek999

I've been giving this some thought and will offer my current thoughts for others to pick apart. I'll start with some assumptions: The house is not currently bullet proof, you are not willing to build a new house just for that purpose, and you don't want to screw the place up in a way that the wife will object or it becomes un-saleable in the future.

This leaves two alternatives: Stock a bunch of materials that will be put to use if SHTF and you feel the need, in which case the question becomes what to stock, or SHTF and you haven't stocked materials and the question just became what to do absent any special materials.

Here is what my current thinking would be on what I would do:

First, everything that is outside is coming inside, e.g. that pile of firewood. It will be stacked against exterior walls. This stuff needs to come in to prevent it being stolen anyhow. Next anything on the inside, furniture, books, preps, you name it, will also get moved up against exterior walls. I'd block various windows and doors in the process. This will give somewhat random protection, but it's better than no protection. The heaviest material will go to pre-selected positions and women and children will go to the basement.

Now if I get to the point that this issue has bubbled up to the top of my list of issues to deal with, then I'd make it a factor in the selection of my next home.


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## airdrop

This is a youtube test but I have seen one using 6" walls filled with sand that seem to work . All though I'd leave the top open so the sand blast wave has a exit to relieve the pressure . Something like this 



 I though when I watched this that if you used roofing rubber like membrane that the sand would not run out of the holes and the wall would take more rounds .
I also see a portable wall on 2 wheels that could be moved quickly if fire comes from a different direction and a view port with lexon over it .


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## hiwall

When I was gunsmithing I had a small simple box filled with sand that I used when I had to test fire handguns and 22's. I used a couple of car inner tubes to keep the sand in and I replaced the outside piece of thin plywood when ever it got too shot up. I used the same box for many years.


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## Caribou

Some years ago I saw a picture of a house sitting all alone in the middle of a bunch of burned out houses. All around this house as far as you could see in every direction were paved streets and charred desolation. A wild fire had burned through the area and this architect had built the only home to survive the devastation. If the military had napalmed his home I doubt it would have fared well. 

My point is this, just because you can't protect against all attack does not mean that you should not protect against any. Most homes built today will not stop a .22 round. A friend of mine remodeled a house that had been totally destroyed by an untold number of rounds being fired through it, yes through it as the bullets went in the front and out the back. The gentleman inside had made the mistake of shooting at the cops. Every cop and every trooper in town had shown up to arrest him for killing another cop. They arrived with more than their normal ammo load.

The normal wood frame house has no ballistic resistance. If someone came up and knocked on my front door with an Abrahams tank I'd beat a hasty exit out the back but it would be nice to be able to defend my home against a handful of disorganized ruffians.

People have been building forts for thousands of years. Forts are not built because they are impregnable but to make the contents too costly to bother with. Thieves have been known to use a chainsaw on an exterior wall yet we still put locks on our doors.


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## Padre

Ozarker said:


> When the guys in the white uniforms show up in an ambulance, just be nice and go with them. They will take you to a big solid and well protected building where you will be totally safe, you may get your own padded room, which is where your like minded friends will be and belong!


 What exactly is your major malfunction? Are you dumb, just antisocial, or dense?

In every major city in the US it is not uncommon for bullets to fly through walls TODAY. Why exactly is it crazy to be concerned about this post- SHTF? Do Katrina, the LA Riots, ISIS ring a bell? All three are recent manifestations of the breakdown of the rule of law. I mean even if you foolishly are not worried about the possibility of gang bangers making it to your hidey hole, what about the Wahoos who have never gone hunting and decided that its time to start when the corn chips run out? Do you think they will practice good hunter etiquette? Scout their hunting grounds? Avoid your house. Never mind the reality of hungry, armed, neighbors, if word gets out that you have food.

No one is talking about defending the Maginot line. If that were my idea I would not be thinking about cheap solutions for the need for cover. If I thought I was going to be fighting off 10th Mountain I'd probably tear down the place and start anew. This is my bug out location, aka my cabin by the lake, not Fort Knox! Getting away from the craziness is my primary strategy, keeping my head down my second, but I have to be realistic about the fact that I am just hours from major cities. If a column of tanks comes up my road I will undoubtedly bug out, but since I have food, water, ground to grow, hunting grounds, a strategic position, and most importantly an off grid shelter I want to be able, if push comes to shove, to defend it against reasonable threats.

Crazy talk, I know. So Ozarker, what exactly are you preparing for? Fighting off the dudes from deliverance? Or are you just preparing for three days until FEMA can rescue you?


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## Padre

Geek999 said:


> I've been giving this some thought and will offer my current thoughts for others to pick apart. I'll start with some assumptions: The house is not currently bullet proof, you are not willing to build a new house just for that purpose, and you don't want to screw the place up in a way that the wife will object or it becomes un-saleable in the future.
> 
> This leaves two alternatives: Stock a bunch of materials that will be put to use if SHTF and you feel the need, in which case the question becomes what to stock, or SHTF and you haven't stocked materials and the question just became what to do absent any special materials.


Although I not willing to concede that the wife will not let me up armor, you essential have the scenario correct.

The structure is typical American construction, it offers no ballistic protection and is very functional as a recreational home today. I have thought about planters, I have sand bags (but not enough to ring the house), and I have some firing positions away from the house, but call me paranoid I don't like the idea of a bullet potentially flying through a house that offers no protection.

We have a safe room in the basement but I would like to provide some cover to those in the house.


> Here is what my current thinking would be on what I would do:
> 
> First, everything that is outside is coming inside, e.g. that pile of firewood. It will be stacked against exterior walls. This stuff needs to come in to prevent it being stolen anyhow. Next anything on the inside, furniture, books, preps, you name it, will also get moved up against exterior walls. I'd block various windows and doors in the process. This will give somewhat random protection, but it's better than no protection. The heaviest material will go to pre-selected positions and women and children will go to the basement.
> 
> Now if I get to the point that this issue has bubbled up to the top of my list of issues to deal with, then I'd make it a factor in the selection of my next home.


Yah, that was my thought as well. That's why I thought of inoperable appliances.

I have thought about sand in the walls but I am wondering what the downside is? Will this promote rot?


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## Geek999

I think if you want to do something now you're going to wind up with not only a lot of construction, but also giving up some floor space as you make the walls thicker. It will also take a lot of testing to be sure the materials are thick enough.

I recently read a novel where the protagonist used 2.5" of plywood. I have no idea what that would actually stop, but it would be better than 1 layer of sheetrock. As a mental exercise I calculated how many sheets of plywood it would take to do that to my house. I had no intention of doing it, I just wanted to see if the idea was realistic. It was a lot of plywood. 

Now if I was serious, I'd test it and perhaps do a room, finishing off with wood paneling (real wood not the cheap stuff used in '60s basements). The I'd get an engineer to calculate whether there would be a floor loading problem. The interior walls could either be done the same way to make an above ground safe room or just use the paneling to make the room look coherent.

Then of course you get into the problem of floor and ceiling protection, . . . 

Uh, you go first.


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## BillS

I live in a small town. I have to try to hide in plain sight. I can't surround my house with dead cars, sandbags, or dead appliances. Nobody around here has solar power so I don't either. 

I'm not very concerned about people firing at the house with high calibre weapons after it hits the fan. I'm more concerned with people doing house to house home invasions. Which is why we'll take turns having someone awake and armed at all times.


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## jeff47041

Padre said:


> I have thought about sand in the walls but I am wondering what the downside is? Will this promote rot?


I think sand in the walls might promote ant infestation. One part of my house is on a slab. We used creekbed fill (sand) instead of pea gravel under the slab. It's terrible. A constant battle with ants.

I don't know. Maybe if it was completely dry when you put it in, maybe it wouldn't cause the ant problems? But I'd have a hard time talking myself into trying it.

Once, when we were in Louisiana, The lovey one and I went to an old slave farm. They still had the whole place set up the way it was when they had slaves there. There was a jail. It was built with 2" thick wood. The walls were 8" thick. The first boards were vertical, next layer was 45 degrees to the right, next layer was 45 degrees to the left, then the last layer was horizontal. the info signs said that the walls were bulletproof. I always thought that if I build us a BOL cabin, I might use that type of pattern for the walls. I think an inch of hard Styrofoam insulation board in between each layer of wood would make the walls pretty air tight.


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## Caribou

There is a lot of ballistic resistance information available at Box O' Truth.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/tag/original-chapters/

I might consider sand on an interior wall but not an exterior wall as it will act as a heat sump. This may be fine if you live in the SW but it is a poor way to go in a colder climate unless you add significant insulation on the inside.

If your sand was wet or got wet I would be concerned with rot, mold, weight, and the afore mentioned ants. I've recently been giving pea gravel some thought as an alternative to sand. You will need to put plywood on both sides of any wall you do this to as the weight will deform the sheetrock. The floor will need to be able to support the added weight.

We are looking for a new house. Final plans will of course be developed after purchase but my idea today is to construct a raised garden around the house. The wall closest to the house will be cinderblock and as funds permit a stone or brick facia will be raised. This will provide ballistic and fire protection.


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## PurpleHeartJarhead

BillS said:


> I live in a small town. I have to try to hide in plain sight. I can't surround my house with dead cars, sandbags, or dead appliances. Nobody around here has solar power so I don't either.
> 
> I'm not very concerned about people firing at the house with high calibre weapons after it hits the fan. I'm more concerned with people doing house to house home invasions. Which is why we'll take turns having someone awake and armed at all times.


Ditto, except we live out in the country. However, we live in area not quite like a development, but sort of. There are 11 houses where I am at, we all have 8+ acres. The area, because of our location, relative distance from each other makes it a target for just that sort of thing.

My dilemma is that I cannot trust 3 of my neighbors outright. 4 more are questionable and the remaining 3 are older, but trustworthy, but they are not like-minded individuals and are kind of living with rose colored glasses.

I'd just point out to those thinking about sand bags. Please realize sand bags deteriorate fairly rapidly once they begin taking direct fire. If you are determined to use a sandbag type wall though, mix in bags of quickcrete. Any cement in a bag really. Use it areas of particular vulnerability. It's cheap, and when it gets wet, does what you'd expect and does not give way so quickly.

My $0.02.


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## VoorTrekker

hiwall said:


> Like I have said before building simple wood boxes six inches or so thick and filled with sand/dirt make excellent bullet stoppers. These can be fastened to your house and painted to match.


NOT RECOMMENDED! The U.S. Army did tests back in the 1980's with three calibres, 5.56 NATO, the 7.62 NATO and the 50BMG. 
The .30 cal. needed two feet of dirt/sand to stop the round, three feet for the 50BMG.

6" of concrete to stop the .30 cal. AP and 12" to stop the 50BMG AP.

Sand bags do disintegrate when being shot up and so do wood walls filled with sand. 300 rounds of .30 cal. fired on the corner collapsed a wood frame house using an M-60 LMG.

One could use a formula of 3-1 sand to cement and a tad of lime (white powder) and make concrete to pour into the walls between the studs. I have heard that hydrochloric acid can be used to harden after pouring, but I have no proof. But this is used: CaCl2, Ca(NO3)2 and NaNO3, volcanic ash is another additive. http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete"]http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete

http://www.lmcc.com/q_and_a/concrete-hardening.asp if the links don't work it is the cyber gremlins at work.

The barrier only needs to be three to four feet high for protection. A steel plate on the inside of the door would be a good idea.

There used to be an ad. in Soldier of Fortune magazine called "Harder Homes and Gardens." Haven't seen the ad. since Rhodesia fell.


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## hiwall

4" of dirt has always stopped all the pistol bullets that I have shot into it. I am fairly sure it would likely also stop the light 223 bullets. 6" of dirt would stop MOST bullets.
If someone comes with a M2 50 cal you are toast no matter what.


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## PurpleHeartJarhead

hiwall said:


> 4" of dirt has always stopped all the pistol bullets that I have shot into it. I am fairly sure it would likely also stop the light 223 bullets. 6" of dirt would stop MOST bullets.
> If someone comes with a M2 50 cal you are toast no matter what.


M855 Military 5.56mm (.223) ball will penetrate far more than 12" of dirt, and will penetrate 1" homogeneous steel, and a crap load of wood and cinder block. I have personally shot 2 ammo cans filled with dirt, one behind the other and had the round go through one and stop in the other, with a few going through both.

One other test I've done was with sand bags in front of an ammo can, same ammo. Not much better results.

4" of dirt with pistols, I wouldn't stake my life on it, just saying. 12" is the minimum thickness, at the top of a parapet of a fighting hole, sloping out and down and out at an angle.


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## Caribou

PurpleHeartJarhead said:


> I'd just point out to those thinking about sand bags. Please realize sand bags deteriorate fairly rapidly once they begin taking direct fire. If you are determined to use a sandbag type wall though, mix in bags of quickcrete. Any cement in a bag really. Use it areas of particular vulnerability. It's cheap, and when it gets wet, does what you'd expect and does not give way so quickly.
> 
> My $0.02.


At one point in time they made roads by laying down gravel, then putting a layer of cement on top of that, a Cat would then blade the two until the mixture back and forth till well mixed the level the road way, after the roller compacted everything the water truck would wet it all down, let everything set far a while and you were good to go. That's a long winded way of saying that if you're not looking for structural integrity the mixture does not have to be precise.

Over the years I have seen cement sacks that have gotten wet. These are typically just thrown away. If you have a buddy at a concrete plant or hardware store you might ask them to throw it your way.


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## hiwall

PurpleHeartJarhead, I freely admit that I have very little experience with military rounds. My shooting is always with hunting or target rounds.


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## PurpleHeartJarhead

hiwall said:


> PurpleHeartJarhead, I freely admit that I have very little experience with military rounds. My shooting is always with hunting or target rounds.


My shooting is not limited to military ammo. I'm just saying I would not stake my life on 4" of dirt and I would ask that you and others also not do so. While the M855 is a military round, commercial-off-the-shelf .223 ammo to which you reference is no joke. It will smoke through 4" of dirt quite easily. All of these calibers .243, .270, .30-30, .308, .30-06 all will go through far more than 4" of dirt.


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## VoorTrekker

PurpleHeartJarhead said:


> ...All of these calibers .243, .270, .30-30, .308, .30-06 all will go through far more than 4" of dirt...


Thank you. Notice that the posterer in question never had a clue.

Padre, concrete between he studs may be your best option.


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## Caribou

VoorTrekker said:


> Thank you. Notice that the posterer in question never had a clue.
> 
> Padre, concrete between he studs may be your best option.


Here is an interesting test. The 9MM went through 6" of wood and the .223 went through 9" and kept going. I like concrete but the studs would be a weak spot.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-1-the-original-box-o-truth/


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## Ozarker

We would do demonstrations for trainees, ROTC, OCS, WOC school in the Army. Take your ammo can and fill it tight with sand and dirt, 5.56 will blow the thing apart. Now, fill a can with water and lock the top down, it blows up popping the top off and blowing holes through both sides.

Now, why is that? Any physics whizzes out there?

The impact of a round displaces the material it hits in all directions not just in the path of the projectile, as a material moves to the sides, down, up and forward that energy is displaced and moves the next molecule until you have pressure against what ever container might be used. The energy is not reduced but multiplied from the size of the round to a larger area, but the force is reduced due to that energy being dissipated in a larger area. In other words, the pressure concentrated where the round impacts is reduced and dissipated in all directions, but while that pressure is reduced it is increased from its static pressure in all directions, that dissipated force is not as great as it was on impact, but its much more than was prior to the impact. 
That energy has to go someplace and when it does you get an impressive result as an observation, that's why we did it, so the troopers would get a bit of understanding of the lethal effects of that little 5.56 bullet. 

If we had not closed the ammo cans compressing the inside material, it wouldn't be the least bit impressive, a small splash pops out or there is a puff of dirt thrown up with holes going out being much smaller. 

Sandbags do not hold the energy in a compressed state, the expand and the bag is heavy enough to allow movement and the energy to be dissipated, if it were an immoveable shell or container you'd get the ammo can effect, more of an explosion as the can contains that energy to a certain point and then it is released violently. 

Best way I can explain it. The purpose of the demonstration was to instill confidence in our troopies as to their weapon, before you're telling them the M-16 has a kick much like a .22, not many are afraid of or impressed with a .22, then demonstrating the ballistic effects of the 5.56, they walk away knowing their little M-16 is no .22! 

It depends on the threat level as to what any shielding cover might be applied, small arms are better deflected with metal being struck as the first impact surface, it deforms and can fragment the projectile reducing the energy and flak going through what ever is behind that first layer. 

So far, your discussion has been to the first shot, I can blow a hole in 1 foot of poured concrete with several shots, just chip it away.

You're also speaking of materials as to depth, the size is in three dimensions , if energy can't go down as it may have greater reinforcement then it will go elsewhere in the path of least resistance. If there is room around the initial impact area for energy to be released instead of being forced against a fixed material the impact will be less effective. Think of the vest plates, if they get hit they must be replaced and they dissipate the energy to the point of not allowing the projectile to go through, the science to it isn't about it hitting an object that stops the energy but dissipates it. Get hit with your vest on and you'll more than feel it, it can crack or break ribs, they use blanks in the movies.

Solids may not perform as well as a series of smaller or thinner materials, the projectile can be deflected upon the initial impact and then its effectiveness is slightly reduced hitting the second obstruction and the same continues until there is no penetration. The distance between each obstruction also matters.

I've never seen anything under a fifty cal penetrating one inch of any grade of steel, some grades can stop that. So, you might clarify the grade of steel and it's thickness and size, otherwise it's like blowing smoke. 

I'm commenting because it seems the initial post of implied or assumed armies of zombies has changed to a few psychos that could be more plausible.

I have a cabin at the lake as well, there certainly could be an instance where I will fire against another person and they may likely return fire, I'm good, but I can't shoot two at a time unless one is behind the other....not likely. More unlikely in town. Neither location will be armored up, for one thing I can only assume small arms fire as a threat. If someone knew what they were doing, a homemade mortar or RPG could be the next threat, then, anything of military grade that could be taken. I can't stop a truck bomb rolling don the hill either. I can't stop someone from shooting or throwing a fire bomb on my roof or against a wall, my places are not fire proof. 

At my home and cabin I have a kitchen bar that has a line of sight over the most likely avenues of approach, that means return fire will have to go through 4 wall sides as well as the pots and pans in the bar. I'm not really concerned.

I mentioned in other posts something to the best defense is a good offense. I'm not going to be hunkering down inside my dwelling in some fire fight. I don't want bullets zipping inside my dwellings hitting personal items and destroying the interior. I'd hate to have a bullet hole in my leather furniture, or have my grandmother's antiques get hit. My dogs didn't shoot, if I had a dog and it got hit there would be real stuff to pay.

Lets just say I'm not a pillbox type, I'm going after them and using natural terrain, landscaping and cover afforded outside the home. My goal is to draw the bad guys away from the dwelling and then select my point of contact. Hit, retreat, conceal, then attack, rinse and repeat as they say. No one knows my property as well as I do, that is a tactical advantage. I don't mean run away to the next town, I mean open the gates of hell for them on my turf. 

Next, I don't employ illegal methods to unlock those gates, but if things really changed I doubt the ATF would be concerned about me and my attempts to protect my property, just a can of gas can ruin someone's day. Shotgun shells taped together can ruin a day too. There are so many ways to zap people moving across an area. So, the last place I want to be is inside hiding under the bed. 

Which reminds me, I have cameras but I'm not a techie, right now I'd need to go to the equipment to view areas covered. I have video transmitters that can be ultimately hooked up to record or view remotely, but that means dragging equipment with me. I need to get with the 21st century, I could view any area of coverage with a smart phone! That I could carry easily. 

Again, you might rethink your plan and tactics, think stealth, concealment, unthreatening, highly mobile, interlocking areas that provide cover along the directions of movement. Spend more time outside assessing your area then inside your home, IMO.


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## labotomi

PurpleHeartJarhead said:


> M855 Military 5.56mm (.223) ball will penetrate far more than 12" of dirt, and will penetrate 1" homogeneous steel,


Could you go into more detail about this statement? I'm not sure what you mean to say because that round won't perpetrate 1 inch of steel. When I was working in the steel industry we would take some sheet samples and shoot them with various rounds. 5.56 didn't penetrate much. I don't remember exactly what it's limitation was but nowhere near 1 inch.


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## readytogo

*Just don`t bury yourself.....*

Bullet proofing walls, piling trash around the property for bullet proofing purposes, wow it sounds like war proofing to me, but you have to remember that once you are in under all this proofing you are bury in your own coffin. A good adversary willing to take your goods will know these simple rules. OCOKAW= Observation, Cover and Concealment, Obstacles, Key Terrain, Avenues of approach, Weather.
Don't forget fire proofing also, many bunkers in ww2 where simple wipe out with a flame thrower, a simple homemade devise.


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## PurpleHeartJarhead

labotomi said:


> Could you go into more detail about this statement? I'm not sure what you mean to say because that round won't perpetrate 1 inch of steel. When I was working in the steel industry we would take some sheet samples and shoot them with various rounds. 5.56 didn't penetrate much. I don't remember exactly what it's limitation was but nowhere near 1 inch.


What grade steel were you using? A36, Grade 50, Grade 80, T100? I believe the test the military used was with mild steel, A36. However, the current spec requires a minimum of 10 gauge penetration at 200 yards.

Since I also work with steel, I also am able to shoot at various steel scraps that I bring to our range. I most often take A36 1/2" plate, which M855 has zero problems penetrating.

I remember specifically the 1" statement from somewhere in my training and will try to find that reference.


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## mosquitomountainman

Water is a liquid and a liquid cannot be compressed so the water transfers the shock much more effectively than sand It also transfers the shock equally in all directions, unlike sand or solid materials. That's why the show is so much better with water.


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## labotomi

PurpleHeartJarhead said:


> What grade steel were you using?


Hot rolled, low carbon (1018 ), low silicon, (no vanadium or colombium added).


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## Ozarker

Yes, water transfers energy more efficiently. In boating displacement is a key factor in the principle of staying on top of the water, but you can see the effects of the displacement moving forward as your boat develops a wake. There is also air being dispersed around your boat as well as water below, run in the shallows and you can see mud or the bottom churned up, that because the depth is less and the energy can not be dissipated in a larger volume of water. 
My worst class was physics long, long ago, it's a bit of that; for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

I'd question a 5.56 going through a 1/2 inch of mild steel, a 1/4 I'll buy. Most metal salvage is much thinner, I can shoot through a fender of a car and out the other side, even the old cars made of real steel, not beer cans. 

Oh, BTW, putting sand inside you walls is a really bad idea, as mentioned, you have a moisture trap, mold and mildew will have a great time as well as rotting the bottom plate where moisture will collect. 4 inches of sand would be poor insulation. Now, if you have a tromb wall for solar collection, thicker might be fine, but not in a standard stud wall. 

Instead of trying to stop bullets, might consider deflecting them, shoot at a 1'4 inch of concrete board at a 45 degree angle and see what happens. Why do you think tanks and vehicles are designed with slopping angles, I doubt it for aerodynamics so they can go faster and be more fuel efficient. Instead of hitting a flat surface as the old M-1s were designed as a block buster, the Abrams deflects incoming projectiles making it more difficult for a direct hit drilling through.

How many cans of spam does it take to stop an incoming round? Lunch could be served later.... LOL


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## PurpleHeartJarhead

labotomi said:


> Hot rolled, low carbon (1018 ), low silicon, (no vanadium or colombium added).


Much harder than A36.


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## labotomi

PurpleHeartJarhead said:


> Much harder than A36.


I don't think there is much difference. As I stated before, this was hot rolled. We took it from scrapped coils at the hot mill. It hadn't undergone annealing, tempering, cold rolling or any other extra processing.

I'll see if I can find numbers later.


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## HardCider

Padre, 
being a New England man, with I'm guessing a BOL in Northern NE like NH or VT, I'd say your best bet would be a lot of landscaping with stone. I see where people use large boulders to add interest around their homes. Plant around them with your medicinal wildflowers and plants and a lot of people wouldn't give it a second thought. Steel plates around and under the windows might be useful though nothing has ever been built to be impenetrable. Things like this might stop a stray from passing through the house but as you know, nothing is going to stop a full on attack or several experienced gunmen.


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## smaj100

perhaps hesco barriers would work to augment defensive positions. They could be setup in advance and have shrubs, bushes or plants planted around them and will provide an immobile and ballistic barrier.


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## Ozarker

All you need to do is to buy bullet proof window film. Glue it to the walls and paint over it and cover all your windows. Or, cover your house with 3 feet of dollar bills glued on top of each other, either way the cost is about the same. There is already a solution.


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## Viking

Caribou said:


> At one point in time they made roads by laying down gravel, then putting a layer of cement on top of that, a Cat would then blade the two until the mixture back and forth till well mixed the level the road way, after the roller compacted everything the water truck would wet it all down, let everything set far a while and you were good to go. That's a long winded way of saying that if you're not looking for structural integrity the mixture does not have to be precise.
> 
> Over the years I have seen cement sacks that have gotten wet. These are typically just thrown away. If you have a buddy at a concrete plant or hardware store you might ask them to throw it your way.


I've put a lot of hardened sacks of cement behind a concrete retainer wall as fill. These sacks didn't get wet they just absorbed moisture from the air inside a shed. One other thing that can be done is old tires laid in a running bond filled with tamped dirt. I have a friend that uses tires filled with dirt for a backstop for his shooting range, they've taken a lot of bullets from high powered rifles and stay together.


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## LincTex

Viking said:


> One other thing that can be done is old tires laid in a running bond filled with tamped dirt.


Rammed earth tires...

People build earthships this way. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthship

That can be an option for some - a home made from recycled materials, and bulletproof to boot. That's a win-win!


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## TheLazyL

Concrete, rock or dirt barriers are fine. Just keep in mind if you have to pull back, the same barriers will provide your enemy protection too.

Filling exterior walls with sand, concrete or other penetration resistant materials? 12 gauge slugs at the base of the wall and the sand will run out like sand in an hour glass. As a kid I used cement blocks for a backstop. Repeated hits with a 22 Long would crack and bust the blocks. 223 will paper punch a nice clean hole thru 3/8" mild steel, think what a larger caliber would do! 

My house has vinyl siding, 1/2" foil faced foam board, fiberglass insulation, 1/2" drywall and 3 (not 2) layers of interior paint. How am I going to "bullet proof" my walls? I'm not. 

I'm figuring it this way, if I was in the other guy's boots, how would I overwhelm someone's BOL? 

1. My group would quietly surround the BOL as close as we could without being seen. Setup ambush locations on your incoming trails, watch for reinforcements from any MAG.

2. I would take a few pot shots at the front of the BOL to draw the definders into their BOL.

3. I wouldn't care how bullet proof their BOL is because I'm not going to directly assault it. I'd patiently wait.

4. Sooner or later a Defender will have to get water, tend the livestock or whatever. Every time a defender exposes themselves they would be neutralized. 

5. Defenders are confined to and limited to the resources within their BOL. My group isn't. Fresh troops would come and go as we please, new offensive positions, gather resources, hot meals, take a hot shower or watch Gillian's Island reruns on Bluray.

6. I'd figure when the Defenders resources are diminished and/or nerves are frazzled, some of them will try to sneak out, they would be neutralized too.

7. I'd wait another day or to then offer a deal. Come out the front with hands raised and stack you firearms. Those that complied would be taken away form the BOL and neutralized.

8. Now I figure only the Diehards and Leaders are left in the BOL. Guess I'd wait another week before approaching the BOL, looking out for booby traps and a last ditch stand.

9. On to the next BOL.

So how would I defend?

1. LP/OP and sensors warn of any approaching Opposing Forces.

2. We would NOT retreat into the confines of any building. We would stealth away into the woods to meet at predetermined location(s). BOL would be booby trapped before we abandoned it.

3. If we could determined that we could neutralize the Opposing Forces with minimal risks to ourselves we would do so. Otherwise we wait for Opposing Forces to leave or move on to the secondary BOL. 

Our goal would be survival, not to voluntarily be put in a confined defensive position.


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## LincTex

TheLazyL said:


> My house has vinyl siding, 1/2" foil faced foam board, fiberglass insulation, 1/2" drywall and 3 (not 2) layers of interior paint.


You have no structural sheathing? What keeps your studs vertical in a windstorm, the foil foam board? The sheetrock?


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## hiwall

There has been some discussion here about how much dirt is needed to stop bullets. As stated above I had found that less than 4” inches stopped all the pistol bullets I had ever shot into it but rifle bullets have more power. So I had some scraps of wood and built a box which I filled with loose dry sand (we have plenty of that here!). The box ended up having a 4-7/8” opening for the sand so slightly less than 5 inches of sand. The most popular rifle sold in the USA is a .223 caliber (same as our military and police use) so that is what I shot into the box (standard target loads). I shot it twice and no bullets went through so I rapid fired several more shots into the box at about 50 yards. No bullets went through or made a mark on the inside back wood. Would this box also stop a 30/06 or bigger round? I don’t know or care. As I stated earlier a 6” dirt box placed around your home would stop MOST rounds fired into it.


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## PurpleHeartJarhead

hiwall said:


> There has been some discussion here about how much dirt is needed to stop bullets. As stated above I had found that less than 4" inches stopped all the pistol bullets I had ever shot into it but rifle bullets have more power. So I had some scraps of wood and built a box which I filled with loose dry sand (we have plenty of that here!). The box ended up having a 4-7/8" opening for the sand so slightly less than 5 inches of sand. The most popular rifle sold in the USA is a .223 caliber (same as our military and police use) so that is what I shot into the box (standard target loads). I shot it twice and no bullets went through so I rapid fired several more shots into the box at about 50 yards. No bullets went through or made a mark on the inside back wood. Would this box also stop a 30/06 or bigger round? I don't know or care. As I stated earlier a 6" dirt box placed around your home would stop MOST rounds fired into it.


Sir,

I do not doubt the veracity of your test. However, again it is important to make a distinction. .223 cal commercial ammunition is not the same as NATO 5.56 M855 ball ammunition. *It is not recommended *to fire 5.56 NATO from a weapon chambered in .223. However, the opposite is acceptable. This is due to a longer leade in the chamber of 5.56 chambered weapons. Additionally, the 5.56 NATO cartridge fires at much higher chamber pressures than commercial .223.

Were you utilizing .223 or NATO 5.56 Ball? Most law enforcement and ALL military use 5.56 vice .223.

I would also point out the obvious in that you have compressed sand between two pieces of glued, compressed wood which will have an impact on terminal performance versus "dirt."


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## hiwall

Give it a rest. There is virtually no difference in performance between ammo labeled 556 and 223 and many (most) rifles will shoot either. The test was valid and an actual test, not something I read about or heard about. And it was less than five inches of just plain sand or dirt that I shoveled off the ground and into the box once I got down to the range. It gave the results that I fully expected and that I received but wanted to test myself just to be sure. I expected these results due to the fact that you could say I am an expert in the field having been a gunsmith for many years and shooting an untold number of different calibers and models of firearms. I have been a reloader for many many years and have shot guns that the ammunition was so rare that I had to turn the cases on my lathe and reload them myself. Does the Army have some secret ammo that I know nothing about? Sure that is quite possible but is not the point of this whole post. The OP asked about cover from bad guys shooting at him. So yes 6 inches of dirt in a box WILL stop most bullets. If the Army comes you are dead as they have unlimited firepower they can unleash at anyone they choose up to and including a nuclear cruise missile.



> I would also point out the obvious in that you have compressed sand between two pieces of glued, compressed wood which will have an impact on terminal performance versus "dirt."


How could you make a box without using some wood or other material? Oh and I was lazy and had an open top on the box so it was hardly 'compressed'.


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## musketjim

We have such a massive military presence here in Interior Alaska I cannot possibly armor up anything enough to cope with what they'll throw at me under martial law or what bandits steal from the military. I try to monitor entry trails to BOL but Alaska has a lot of terrain to try to cover even with a lot of friends. Camouflage is difficult when burning wood for heat, trails are hard to cover in 4-5 feet of snow. Silence is hard to maintain when you have to drop trees all summer for enough wood for heat. Prep as best you can. 

"The good guys aren't coming."


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## Viking

musketjim said:


> We have such a massive military presence here in Interior Alaska I cannot possibly armor up anything enough to cope with what they'll throw at me under martial law or what bandits steal from the military. I try to monitor entry trails to BOL but Alaska has a lot of terrain to try to cover even with a lot of friends. Camouflage is difficult when burning wood for heat, trails are hard to cover in 4-5 feet of snow. Silence is hard to maintain when you have to drop trees all summer for enough wood for heat. Prep as best you can.
> 
> "The good guys aren't coming."


Cutting firewood alone makes a lot of noise, that's why I bought a five foot crosscut saw, it's amazingly quiet and it's easy to listen for other activity in the woods. I know it doesn't cover all things but believe me it helps.


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## Geek999

Viking said:


> Cutting firewood alone makes a lot of noise, that's why I bought a five foot crosscut saw, it's amazingly quiet and it's easy to listen for other activity in the woods. I know it doesn't cover all things but believe me it helps.


That sounds like a great too to have on hand. Where can you find one?


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## Ozarker

Yes, I'd like a good cross cut, not sure it needs to be 5' though.

Mike, I mention deflection way back there, so yes, it's why old pill boxes were domed or had sloping walls. Today, it doesn't matter as a block buster doesn't care much about geometry. 

Lazy, maybe if you were on the top ten wanted list would there be a siege of 30 or 45 days. Official or some bandit bunch, it costs to have assets sitting, your hot meals served, hot showers and dedicating assets for entertainment, so, what could possibly be in that BOL that is so valuable to your opposing force?

Keeping a low profile in the first place keeps you from being a valued target, regardless of who's out there. At the micro to macro level, assets are allocated to overwhelm the opposing force according to their value. A group of rapists will pass by a brothel of old nasty occupants for some sorority down the road. (putting it in terms best understood by younger over motivated types, lol)

How do you get more assets allocated to take your location? Plant yourself there and resist from that location!


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## readytogo

Blocks full of sand, water heaters full of rocks, steel plates, tires, and a weak roof amount only to a death trap, our ancestors on the other hand knew better they build to survived, take for instance the Goshen Stone Tunnels Homes or the Archaic Period Pit Homes or even the cave homes of Spain with all the modern utilities except power or even the homes of some off-grid dwellers today but like the fortress of yesterday years, they can always be breach with the right equipment and will power. I kind of wonder what kind of war some members are preparing for ,what kind of Mad Max scenario because let`s face it ,unless you have a typical military bunker like the ones we build in Korea ,your efforts are futile .But is good to dream and have high expectations and money to spend .Like buying this caves ; http://www.goldandsilvermines.com/ajax.htm or building this type of homes ;


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## CrackbottomLouis

Wow. This is an old thread. Didn't read through all of it to see if this was posted but has anyone considered hesco barriers? It's what we used in Afghanistan to build our fobs. Basically just metal grate box lined with a burlap sack and filled with dirt then stacked to desired height. The metal grate boxes are collapsible which would make for easy storage until you need them and if you have a tractor it would be pretty simple to dig a ditch on the outside of your wall and use that for fill dirt. With a tractor you could probably have quite a defensive structure in a couple days if you felt the need. I'll see if I can find a link and come back to post it.


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## CrackbottomLouis

The hesco site uses cookies so I didn't want to post the link but a quick search and looking at images will show you what I'm talking about if you aren't familiar.


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## zimmy

Perhaps you are talking about gabion wall or boxes?


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## zimmy

Or perhaps this?


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## CrackbottomLouis

That 2nd one is it. They aren't pricey and can be easily stored and with simple equipment can be up quickly.


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## hiwall

Or buy a roll or two of wire fencing. Farmers/ranchers have been making fence posts out of rocks inside a circle of fence for many many years.


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## zimmy

*Cover Protection*

[So if they aren't pricey what then is the price? Something like ten or twenty of them.

QUOTE=CrackbottomLouis;424189]That 2nd one is it. They aren't pricey and can be easily stored and with simple equipment can be up quickly.[/QUOTE]


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## icMojo

https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/hesco-barriers-for-sale.html

Not exactly "cheap" but the general idea is pretty simple to make, relatively easy to build/fill and you don't have to do it before hand.


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## CrackbottomLouis

Heck of a lot cheaper than other options. Packed tight with fill dirt and they are a formidable obstacle and bullet proof. And pretty easily stored for a rainy day. You can put them in place with 2 people and fill them with a tractor. Compared to putting up a stone wall around your place on the fly it's an easier softer way.


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## LastOutlaw

icMojo said:


> https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/hesco-barriers-for-sale.html


Alibaba... figures you have to order them from China.


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## LastOutlaw

CrackbottomLouis said:


> Heck of a lot cheaper than other options. Packed tight with fill dirt and they are a formidable obstacle and bullet proof. And pretty easily stored for a rainy day. You can put them in place with 2 people and fill them with a tractor. Compared to putting up a stone wall around your place on the fly it's an easier softer way.


I beg to differ on the affordability... cant get much cheaper than an old used discarded tire.


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## CrackbottomLouis

That's true. But do you really want that many old tires laying around for eventual use? And stacking and filling tires with fill dirt seems much more labor intensive than seeing up an empty metal grate with a lining where you want then filling them with a tractor. That site had them at 2.50 a piece. Those aren't small.


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## hiwall

Here is some I finally found in the USA. 32 feet long and 4 foot thick/high. $160 plus freight from Georgia.
Hesco MIL 32' x 4' x 4.5' Wire Cage Defensive Sand Barrier Wall Section

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hesco-MIL-3...660599?hash=item5b28362377:g:FzoAAOSwM4xXbX7F


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## zimmy

I believe I can build my own using strong woven Red Brand cattle fencing using 2"x4" openings but would be better if I could find 2"x2" openings as in the photos. I would run two rows of fence parallel with each other spaced three feet apart using tee post for support, the tee post would be wired across the three foot span to prevent splaying, fabric on the inside and filled with whatever I could find. I just don't see things ever getting that bad to have to set something like this up.


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## icMojo

Hi Zimmy .. That was my thought too. Why buy 'em when it looks to me like they're made of some goat fencing, baling wire and some hessian (burlap) or polypropylene cloth.

Hiwall was saying that the pre-made ones run about 160 bucks for a 32' long section, I haven't done the math yet but I wonder if it isn't just cheaper to get the basics and build what you need to fit your needs.


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## zimmy

When you say $160 are you talking shipped to the door, if not then you have shipping cost on top of that. Shipping cost can be very expensive, sometimes more then the item you are buying.


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## icMojo

Agreed ... Yet, it depends on the terrain. I don't think I'd need to build them quite the way they're built for Mil-Spec use. 

I'd build it to fit the section I want to reinforce. The joints don't need to be mobile, the height/depth/width can all be custom to my needs. Any reason not to use some 2-by's to keep the wire cage in the shape I want? 

To me this is one of those "Six of one, half dozen of the other" situations. YMMV


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## CrackbottomLouis

Whether you make them yourself or buy them it's a solid concept. 32 ft of bullet proof wall that is easily stored broken down and can be put up in a matter of days isn't a bad deal. Only if you forsee needing something like that though.


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## CrackbottomLouis

You could also use them to make a serpentine on long driveways or any other road you fell needs protection.


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## zimmy

I bought this wooded property 35 years ago and minimized the amount and type of trees I cut down to have a southern exposure and protection from the north winds, it is now mature trees with a park like atmosphere, to build a wall of metal fence, rocks, and dirt would not be in my best interest but instead use technology to detect, delay, deter non friendlies.


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