# Solar Phase 1 of 3...



## MountainKing

So last month we got started on a project we had long been looking forward to - a whole home solar system. Realizing that this project was way beyond my capabilities, I went with a professional. With federal and state tax incentives, it is a no brainer. Our house is 100% electric, and though off the grid is on our mind, mostly we are interested in saving money.

We went with a 7.5 KW array that took up our entire roof. We moved into this house a couple of years ago and I've always looked up at that roof and known it was perfect for a solar setup. The roof is aligned 190° and a 30 tilt, so it perfectly catches the sun throughout the seasons. The array feeds a Fronius inverter with data monitoring and weather station - so I can see what the array is putting out in realtime or archived data. It is very cool to be able to watch the system voltage. 

The power company installed a new meter that runs both directions. During daylight hours, most of the time we are feeding energy back to the power company which gives us a credit. We heat our home exclusively with a wood burning insert, so that saves us a lot of energy. Part of going solar is also the raised awareness of your electrical usage. So now I run around turning off lights, turning off TVs that aren't being watched, turning off the computer when it is idle. In addition to the array, the installers put in a radiant barrier in our attic, a solar powered attic vent, and wrapped our hot water heater (electric) with radiant barrier. We are transitioning all our bulbs in the house to LEDs. Particular savings will be realized by changing out our very hot running flood lights to LEDs. Not cheap initially, but over the long run I think it will pay off.

Cost of the array was $31,000. (!) Yeah, I know. But wait..

The Federal Gov't, in its unsustainable ways, will give us a tax credit in April for 30% of the cost (supplies and installation both). That is a lump sum back, not a credit that reduces your taxable income. So they will be sending us a check for $9300 (assuming the Fed gov't lasts that long of course). In addition, the state (NC) gives us 35% of the cost to a maximum of $10,500, so we'll be getting the full $10,500 from the state spread over a few years (they don't give it all back at once). So total out of pocket expense after we get all the tax rebates back will be around $11,000. 

7.5 Kw will probably never zero out our electric bill, but it may reduce it by 50 to 80% depending on our energy usage for the month and the angle of sun in the sky. The nice thing is that NC recently changed laws to allow me to retain the Renewable Energy Credits (RECs) that I generate. RECs (simple explanation) are credits that polluting companies are required to purchase to offset their polluting ways. So companies that operate factories will purchase solar, geothermal, wind, and hydro credits from people that generate "green" energy. Anyway - what that means is I get to sell my RECs on the open market to people that want to buy them. Those credits are worth the same amount as the energy they create but can also be bid up beyond the going rate. So they could sell for 9 cents per KwH or 15 or 20 or whatever. 

Basically the breakdown calculation is that the array will pay for itself (my $11,000) in about 3 1/2 years based on the power generation schedule and RECs. After 3 1/2 years, I'll be making money off the system for decades after.

That makes me feel very good.

Phase 2 and 3 are to build an add-on garage on the house (Phase 2) - on top of which we will place another array of panels. At that point, we will add a battery bank to allow us to store energy. Right now - the system just feeds into the power grid and does not supply us with power if the power goes out. We couldn't afford the cost of the battery bank right now nor did we have a good place to put them anyway - so the garage will have a purposely built section for that (some sort of bay for the batteries with appropriate fire and cooling methods..etc..)

The results have been very good - even though we still have some trees to take down that have been shading the array. My December electric bills over the past three years have been:

Dec 2010 - $260 (no changes to the house)
Dec 2011 - $168 (installed wood burning stove)
Dec 2012 - $99 (included 3 weeks of the array being active - but really bad weather)

If we get a fairly sunny Dec 2013, I'll bet that number will go down to $40 or less (December was exceptionally rainy here in the Carolinas)...

MK


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## Nadja

Now, a really smart person would sell off ALL of the elect appliances and replace with propane. You would then be totally off the grid, no bill at all and self sufficient should the grid fail. The wood stove was a very good start, but if you were to convert your house to propane, then it is a very simple matter to also install a propane room heater or 2 for emergancies and also fairly cheap.


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## MountainKing

Umm..how are you more self sufficient with propane than electrical driven by solar..? Is Suburban Propane still going to be making deliveries after TSHTF? As far as I can tell, barring a nuclear winter, the sun will rise tomorrow and every day thereafter.. 

MK


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## CulexPipiens

Nice setup, although my issue is the grid tie component. It really doesn't give you any backup in the event of grid failure. The lights still go out just like all your neighbors. Now, when you get that battery bank online you'll be in better shape.


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## MountainKing

Yes, that is what the future plan is (batteries).. Freeing up hundreds of dollars a month in electric bills X years = a lot of other prep supplies. I'm taking the long view on preps..in that I want to balance normalcy with prepping. I also have a 500 gallon propane tank that is full. It is plumbed to a pool heater that we never use and my outside grill. I have a Volcano stove that it will run probably for 5 years if it ever came to it.

I imagine some creative wiring could be used to bypass the grid and directly output the voltage to the house during daylight hours to run things. The batteries would be most useful for overcast and night use. I wonder how many appliances I could run on 7000 watts directly off the array..and if the inverter is enough to buffer and regulate the current. Right now the excess voltage goes right down the line, running the meter backwards. Batteries will be in our future..

MK


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## *Andi

Sorry ... I never got past the "Cost of the array was $31,000."

Then you add in repairs over the years ... Sorry ... I'm not sold on solar yet.

But to each their own ...


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## FatTire

*Andi said:


> Sorry ... I never got past the "Cost of the array was $31,000."
> 
> Then you add in repairs over the years ... Sorry ... I'm not sold on solar yet.
> 
> But to each their own ...


What if you could do it for a third of the final cost, it was designed and installed by preppers who showed you how to do it and how to add on to it, would you be interested then, in theory?


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## cowboyhermit

I think it is great for what it is, a whole ton of solar panels that you can use now with full convenience but as you know, gives you no backup option as it stands. I imagine you had someone set it up for you and it seems reasonably priced considering the cost of contracting anything these days.
7500watts of solar panels at $1/watt is only $7500 but then you have the inverter and installation etc.
For an all electric house it should save you some money for sure. You can still install some alternative heat sources like wood and just get paid for more power.
Our house wouldn't even use a fraction of that electricity and personally I wouldn't consider a system without batteries but everyone's circumstances differ.
Congratulations on taking control over a part of your life many people don't


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## jsriley5

Have you considered hot water panels to both heat and of course heat your bath and washing water? would still be in keeping with the solar and would reduce a good bit of your electric usage. I think the point of the switching cooking and heating to propane is that even with batteries and more panels I"m and most others probably are doubtful youd be able to heat with electric. Or at least as I understand it it would take a HUGE array and battery bank to run a furnace. Seems like you have back up heat though for power outtage and potential shtf. And of course in a true shtf propane would eventually run out too. I always want to have some wood back up in my house. But was planinning to do a hot water heating design. I have several of the panels I got used. Just havent gotten a place to set them up yet.


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## *Andi

FatTire said:


> What if you could do it for a third of the final cost, it was designed and installed by preppers who showed you how to do it and how to add on to it, would you be interested then, in theory?


I've done the math and it don't add up ... So sorry but No ...


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## MountainKing

Ok..if you didn't get past "the cost of the array was $31,000" then no, *your* math doesn't add up.

Out of pocket cost is $11,000. Without the RECs - the power output for a year will be approximately $1360 at 11 cents per KwH. The RECs double that since you sell them for an equivalent or greater amount. So make that $2700 roughly per year. Four years x $2700 = 10,800 (basically 11K) - then it's done and paid for. And that is assuming over the next four years the price per kWh does not go up.

I'll be sure to come back and keep posting the power output over the months and years. The panels are guaranteed to 90% capacity for 12 years, and 80% out to 30 years. Mage is a good German company with a fantastic reputation. As is Fronius (the inverter supplier).. So I'm not real worried about maintenance costs.

This isn't about turning my home into a castle and getting off the grid completely - the solar panels aren't running a high voltage perimeter fence or laser beams or anything. It is just a sensible system that frees up money, pays for itself in 4 years, and will give me probably monthly relief from my power bills for decades to the tune of $80 to $140 a month depending on season, weather, and other factors. It is a smart investment for my kids.

But - that said, I'd be willing to listen to your math and compare it to the numbers I have right here in front of me.

:soapboxzipper:

MK


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## MountainKing

jsriley5 said:


> Have you considered hot water panels to both heat and of course heat your bath and washing water?


We've considered it - but we are working on one project at a time. Next is a garage with the roof with panels and the battery bank.



> I think the point of the switching cooking and heating to propane is that even with batteries and more panels I"m and most others probably are doubtful youd be able to heat with electric.


Yes, but if you read my post up there at the beginning you'd read that we don't heat with electric. Yes, the house is 100% electric, but we heat exclusively with a Lopi Freedom woodstove. We installed that our first year and it heats the 2000 sq. ft. house with no problems at all. Sitting right now with the damper on slow smolder and the house is 75 downstairs, 74 upstairs with the blower on the minimum setting. Our biggest electric consumption is A/C in the summer, hot water heater, our fridge, and no doubt our washer and dryer. In a true SHTF situation, assuming we have a battery bank in the near future, we could easily run most of those components during daylight hours between 10AM and 4PM (when the total watts reaches between 4,000 and 7,000+ depending on the season). I don't expect to be running a whole house on a 7.5Kw system, but cycling through appliances should be no problem.



> Or at least as I understand it it would take a HUGE array and battery bank to run a furnace. Seems like you have back up heat though for power outtage and potential shtf.


Yeah - you got it. It isn't even backup heat - it is primary heat. The only time the heat pumps run is in the summer. Another thing on my list to install is a whole house attic fan - the kind that are big and suck all the air up through the house. They do a pretty good job of cooling a house in the early evening when the air starts to cool. But lets face it - in a true SHTF situation, I don't know that I'll be worried too much about how much power I'm generating or how long I can run an ice-maker.  I'm fairly confident that I can generate enough power during the day to run an oven, a few other items, and bank power in the batteries for the evening. And power consumption in the evening should be very, very low.



> And of course in a true shtf propane would eventually run out too. I always want to have some wood back up in my house. But was planinning to do a hot water heating design. I have several of the panels I got used. Just havent gotten a place to set them up yet.


Yeah - propane would go pretty fast I'd imagine. At one time I considered buying a propane generator but really don't think that is a good idea. It seemed like too much expense for not a lot of reward. Like I said, my 500 gallon propane tank is full, and there are only two things that are hooked up to it. A pool heater and my grill. When I first moved in to this house a few years ago I turned the pool heater on in late fall just to see how it worked. True to its name, it did indeed heat the pool water up to a comfy 80 degrees or so. I ran it for two days and the needle on the tank went from 40% to 15%. <g> That was the last day I ever turned that pool heater on. Only rich people that heat pools with natural gas can really afford to do that. Now we just swim til' it gets too cold then cover the pool and reopen it in early May. I use a solar cover to get the water warmed up by about 10 degrees in May and that works pretty good.

Plumbing the residential propane tank to my grill was simply a convenience thing. I'll never again get halfway through burgers and have that 20 lb. propane tank go dry. That said, in a true SHTF scenario, I wouldn't use the propane on that large outdoor grill, I'd simply plug it into my Volcano stove which would be much more efficient. And the backup to that is my Volcano Jr. (a simply awesome product) and I have about 20 bags of charcoal in my shed to fuel that. It only takes about 10 briquettes to grill or bake something, so that is a long supply. And finally, the Lopi wood stove I had installed has a 6 inch top shelf, so I can also cook on that with cast iron if push comes to shove.

The solar system is a way to reduce my bills, stick it to the power company (I cannot tell you how cool it is to see the meter arrow pointing downstream toward the power lines..), and do something environmentally right. And an added bonus is once I expand it to the battery setup I do get some SHTF benefits from it too.

Anyway - I won't belabor the point. The whole reason I posted about the project is that I'm not sure too many people are aware of the tax incentives to do a project like that from both the Federal and State governments. Of course, North Carolina (with it's 35% tax rebate for solar/PV) might be the exception and some of you might not have as progressive tax codes (I know, I find it hard to believe I said "North Carolina" and "progressive" in the same sentence, but there you have it). Whatever the case, I think the Federal incentives are in place until 2016 - and with the way budgets are going, I would be worried that those types of incentives may go away soon.

Good luck - and I'll be happy to answer any questions about the system, the data monitoring, the process, the paperwork, or the hardware.

Regards,
MK


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## MountainKing

Today was a good day - 21.24 kWh generated or about $2.33 of electricity. Since we are past the winter solstice the amount generated will continue to rise until June 21 (summer solstice). Toward mid summer we should be seeing $5 to $6 a day in electricity generated per day depending on cloud cover of course.

What is interesting (well, to me anyway) is that these numbers are with five or six leafless trees still blocking the array during much of the day (I'd say over 70% of the day). I cut down four big oaks that cleared out some of the shadows, but they weren't very close to the house, so no danger of felling them. (Side benefit - about 3 years worth of oak firewood for the wood stove!) The remaining five or six trees are pretty close to the house, so I'm going to have to go up them (I have rock climbing gear - ascenders and a GriGri) and take them down limb by limb. I'd rather not kill them, but I'm not sure how much of an oak you can take off the top and have it still remain alive. I need to take about the top third of them down.

Anyway - what is interesting about this graph of today's output is that little hitch you see at about 1PM. That is the point where the array gets the most blockage from a particular tree. Once it clears that tree (or the shadow clears the array) the output goes up rapidly and peaks between 2 and 3 each day before another couple trees start to shadow it again.


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## MountainKing

And this is what a day with clouds passing over the sun intermittently looks like on the power generation graph...


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## MountainKing

One last thing that was worth mentioning. In order to pay for the upfront cost I took out a home equity loan for $25,000 on the house and paid the rest ($6000) in cash. In April I expect to take all of the Federal and State rebates ($9300 Federal and 1/3 of the State rebate since it is amortized over 3 years - you can only get back up to half your total tax liability per year in rebates from the state - so $3400 or so for me spread over 3 years) So that means I'll basically turn my tax rebates over to the tune of $12,700 leaving me another $12,300 remaining on the HELOC. Year 2 and 3 will apply another $3400 each year to the HELOC leaving me with my $5000-ish balance to finish paying off (=$11,000 total out of pocket)

Anyway - in order to get the HELOC, I had to have a home appraisal prior to the work starting. That went through with no problems - we don't owe all that much on our home (again - setting my kid up for success after I'm gone) and the appraisal came in great.

We had the solar project done, then I decided to refinance because we bought the house in 2009 and the rates have dropped since then. I learned that for a refinance they have to do a more complete appraisal than the "drive by" appraisal for the HELOC loan. I was curious what the new appraisal (taken just 60 days apart) would show now that we had the solar project done.

To my great surprise and relief - the appraisal came in $34,000 higher than the HELOC appraisal had. <g> I was stunned because I knew the appraiser would have a hard time finding a comparable house that also had a solar install. When he looked at the data about the solar system and the value of the components he seemed to take that into consideration (obviously). So anyway - I was happy to see the system added real value to the home property and not just "future earnings" value...

MK


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## jsriley5

I knew there were incentives but not that they were that substantial. Mostly I didn't research them too hard as I am a bit distrustful of my Govt and dislike having their nose in my business. Tell me please what kind of interaction DO you have to get your incentives? 

And I guess I was reading too fast I got the 100% electric and thought heating and missed the 100% wood heating. Usually if someone is heating with wood they don't say they are 100% electric they say we are all electric except for wood heat.  minor difference but saves having people like me make fools of themselves  Wish you luck and look forward to updates.


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## MountainKing

No..no worries, I wrote a lot and might not have been specific enough. I never know how to say it..whether it is a wood stove, wood heat, a fireplace insert, or whatever.. <g> All things being equal, I think the wood stove has represented the greatest return on investment so far, but I am confident that within a few years the solar array will surpass it.

The tax incentives are just filed during your taxes. I use Turbo Tax and there is a whole segment devoted to clean energy credits. Like you, I am distrustful of the government and this period between Dec and April makes me nervous because basically I'm trusting that the gov't will have the money to pay me. I figure though, that if they don't, our problems will be a lot bigger than just being owed some money since that will mean the gov't is defaulting.

The fun part for us as a family is the whole energy awareness that the install gave us. Now everything we use or buy is with an awareness of its power consumption. That will serve us well in the event of a grid failure in the future.

I would be interested to have a standby or supplemental solar hot water system too. I haven't researched much into that system yet.

Thanks for the interest and comments.

MK


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## cowboyhermit

Lol, those shadows on your panels were driving me crazy but I didn't want to give you a hard time. Modern panels seem a lot better than the old ones at dealing with shadows but a line of shade can still really affect the output of the whole panel. I love trees and maybe as the sun gets higher it will not be a factor but trimming them should get you a few more watts.


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## MountainKing

Yep, my installer said the same thing as you. He said that just a little bit of shadowing can affect the power output for that entire panel - they are apparently constructed to be in full sun and efficiency drops off significantly even if just a portion of the individual panel is shadowed. We are slowly getting the trees down, it just takes a long time. I took me a couple weeks (actually about a month) to get the four big oaks I cut down all chopped up into firewood. I just finished clearing up all the residual small branches the other day. So now I'll move on to the ones that are closer in and blocking the morning to 1PM sun. 

Like you, I hate cutting down trees. But losing 8 or 9 when we probably have 60 to 80 on the property doesn't seem so bad, but still...

I'll post the new graph of the output when I do get them down - I'm betting it will look more like a parabola instead of having any jaggies in it.

It is funny how consistent the output is on sunny days - although that should not be surprising at all.. Here is the past three days including today:


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## *Andi

MountainKing said:


> But - that said, I'd be willing to listen to your math and compare it to the numbers I have right here in front of me.


No need ... (incentives) gobbermint math.

Best of luck with the projects.


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## MountainKing

*Andi said:


> No need ... (incentives) gobbermint math.


LOL.. No.. Just. Math. That is the nice thing about electricity - it is bound by the laws of the universe.

Whether a check comes from the U.S. Government or my employer doesn't much matter to me. They both spend the same.

(I know, I know, convert the dollars to silver..yada yada yada..)

MK


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## *Andi

MountainKing said:


> Whether a check comes from the U.S. Government or my employer doesn't much matter to me. They both spend the same.
> 
> MK


Yea ... I know a lot of farmers that thought along the same path but no matter ...

Good luck .


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## Bocephous

I've been thinking about solar power for a little while, and we are in a really good location for it. I mentioned it to my wife on Sunday morning and before breakfast I prayed for guidance in this matter.

We went to church and I started talking to a guy that I have been giving some advice to lately. For some reason on a totally unrelated topic I asked him what he did for a living. 

"I sell solar power systems," he replied. 

He coming over next Monday for a consultation.


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## SNMILLICAN

i see that most of you are talking abt your homes..... but what abt campers? does anyone have any advice on solar panels and systems that work well campers?? and can numerous systems ( control boxes etc) be hooked up to one set of batteries to charge or do you need a set of batteries for ea set of control boxes??


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## FatTire

*Andi said:


> I've done the math and it don't add up ... So sorry but No ...


I asked because im working on a business model that will reduce installation costs to about 12% of where they are are currently, that coupled with some system integration and interconnection ideas Im working out will reduce end consumer costs eliminating the need for government subsidies to make pv systems cost competitive.


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## *Andi

FatTire said:


> I asked because im working on a business model that will reduce installation costs to about 12% of where they are are currently, that coupled with some system integration and interconnection ideas Im working out will reduce end consumer costs eliminating the need for government subsidies to make pv systems cost competitive.


Best of Luck ...


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## Herklord

With all do respect, appraised value and market value are two different animals. It remains to be seen whether the market would pay considerably more for a solar house vs non solar. Maybe yes maybe no. For now i assume you will simply be taxed more based on you appraisal?


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## MountainKing

*Andi said:


> Yea ... I know a lot of farmers that thought along the same path but no matter ...


Hmm..and I know a great many farmers that have made out quite nicely with farm subsidies - so your point is? There is one right?

Sticking your head in the sand and ignoring a great benefit just because it comes from the evil government is certainly a position to take. But when you can benefit from it, then snub your nose at the black helicopters, well, I just don't see the sense in discounting it without consideration.

Interesting position.

MK


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## MountainKing

Herklord said:


> With all do respect, appraised value and market value are two different animals. It remains to be seen whether the market would pay considerably more for a solar house vs non solar. Maybe yes maybe no. For now i assume you will simply be taxed more based on you appraisal?


For my purposes, appraised value vs. market value don't mean anything. I bought this house three years ago and I plan to be in it for decades to come (at the very minimum until my 3 year old is grown and gone). Thus - the long term investments in things like rain barrels, raised bed gardens, solar system, etc.. If I was going to turn this place over in five or ten years I wouldn't be making the investments.

I'll take the appraised value too. Yes, it raises my taxes probably 5% on a normally $1800 tax valuation - which means I pay an extra $90 a year in taxes. Hmm..I'll take the equity I can tap (an extra $30K+) and keep that in reserve for a crisis (or eventually a college education for my son or whatever). Not that it matters, the way we are hacking away at the mortgage principle it won't affect us either way (again - math matters).

And lastly - if a buyer comes in and looks at the historical power bills versus what we are generating now, and doesn't consider that in the value of the home, we simply won't sell it to them. You don't have to accept a buyer's offer you know <wink>.

MK


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## MountainKing

FatTire said:


> I asked because im working on a business model that will reduce installation costs to about 12% of where they are are currently, that coupled with some system integration and interconnection ideas Im working out will reduce end consumer costs eliminating the need for government subsidies to make pv systems cost competitive.


In my opinion - without the significant federal and state incentives, solar is a pretty hard sell. What would be very interesting for communities that wanted to go in together (for instance communities that lived in those tight cookie-cutter communities) would be a scenario where they did some sort of energy cooperative where they build a larger array (say 100kW or something) on a common property and then they each had a proportional reduction in their power bills based on the total output. The shared cost of install would reduce the individual cost since a larger array in a central location would mean less individually specific installation issues. Of course, distributing the power would be problematic. Or they could just agree to a cooperative that just was a power station that sold power to the grid for money. With the incentives in place now, we are seeing more of that here in North Carolina - people with large tracts of land creating power generation "farms". Just down the road is a 1-megawatt facility.

Anyway - it is encouraging to see a move toward solar as being something that is become more feasible. Economies of scale will eventually come into play and in a few decades I envision solar shingles or something to be the norm in new home construction and re-roofing.

I'm sure the power companies (and by proxy the government) would be very resistant to big inroads by solar technology and installers. The coal and oil lobby has quite a lot of pull.

MK


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## MountainKing

Bocephous said:


> He coming over next Monday for a consultation.


That's great. Use caution when finding a contractor. We got very lucky (dumb luck) and really got a good installer. Much of his business right now is comprised of fixing other installers screwed up installs. I'd research on Angie's List or at the very minimum ask the installer if you could visit some of his other projects/installs so that you can see the work yourself and perhaps even speak to homeowners of other projects he's done.

I'd also be careful of what equipment he recommends. My installer gave me several options, including some cheap Chinese panels that probably would have reduced the install cost by 25%. I did some reading and was very happy we settled on the higher end panels.

Good luck and I'd love to hear an update or find out what he tells you about a possible project.

Regards,
MK


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## MountainKing

SNMILLICAN said:


> i see that most of you are talking abt your homes..... but what abt campers? does anyone have any advice on solar panels and systems that work well campers?? and can numerous systems ( control boxes etc) be hooked up to one set of batteries to charge or do you need a set of batteries for ea set of control boxes??


Wish I could help you out with that - but I don't know anything about more portable systems. There are a lot of factors there I'm sure (like making sure the panels are secure for transit, etc..) I'm guessing that there must be a fairly deep pool of people with RVs on RV-type websites that probably have some good input on more portable PV systems. I also, unfortunately, don't know much about how the battery banks work (yet). I don't know if the inverters are smart enough to charge them individually or if they all get held to the same charge level or what. Definitely beyond the knowledge I have now. That said though - marine and RV solar installs are probably much more evolved than home solar I'd guess, since the need for them has been around for a lot longer (particularly sailboat type installs).

Good luck!
MK


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## cowboyhermit

SNMILLICAN, yes a properly designed system is very modular, you can add batteries and panels as you go. While you can use multiple charge controllers, for a regular system it usually isn't worth it, just get one with larger amperage. There is a lot of info on this forum, I think it was Linctex who had a really good step by step system.
Mountainking, I know of or have worked on hundreds of solar sites in this area that never received ANY subsidies, mostly agricultural, petrochemical or wireless towers. If you are in a rural location and have not been hooked up yet (new site) it is much more economical to go with a solar installation.
I am a farmer in Canada and have NEVER taken a subsidy, even hidden ones like crop insurance. To be completely up front I got a cheque once automatically for a couple hundred bucks and kept it for some reason, instead of taking it back I donated the same amount to a good charity.


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## *Andi

MountainKing said:


> Hmm..and I know a great many farmers that have made out quite nicely with farm subsidies - so your point is? There is one right?
> 
> Sticking your head in the sand and ignoring a great benefit just because it comes from the evil government is certainly a position to take. But when you can benefit from it, then snub your nose at the black helicopters, well, I just don't see the sense in discounting it without consideration.
> 
> Interesting position.
> 
> MK


Yes, I'm the odd person out but I'm alright with that. 

I could try to explain but I don't think you would understand ... but that is alright also ... to each their own. (but I think a product should make it on it own)

You see farm subsidies as alright, I do not (giving a farmer a check for not planting corn) ... You see incentives as good, I do not. (giving people a check to do what the g-ment wants you to do.)

As you said ... without the significant federal and state incentives (tax money), solar is a pretty hard sell ...

My question ... Why, would that be?

IMO ~ Solar will make it one day ... but we are not there yet.

As I have taken your thread off in a different direction, I will bow out now.

:goodluck:


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## jsriley5

MountainKing said:


> What is interesting (well, to me anyway) is that these numbers are with five or six leafless trees still blocking the array during much of the day (I'd say over 70% of the day). I cut down four big oaks that cleared out some of the shadows, but they weren't very close to the house, so no danger of felling them. (Side benefit - about 3 years worth of oak firewood for the wood stove!) The remaining five or six trees are pretty close to the house, so I'm going to have to go up them (I have rock climbing gear - ascenders and a GriGri) and take them down limb by limb. I'd rather not kill them, but I'm not sure how much of an oak you can take off the top and have it still remain alive. I need to take about the top third of them down.


ON the trees that block the arrays in the winter a lil bit will they be trees that provide significant cooling shade in the summer. Might consider the cost diferential of lost electricity production compared to increased need due to cooling. I"m thinking though since the shading is coming at 1pm it is likely not a critical shade tree.

When I do an array I will likely plan to put it on a stand separate just so I won't have to not have trees.

Id mount mine on a stand and that would also allow me to easily tweak it for best alignment and have a tracket for best gathering efficiency.

Have to look again and see how it works here. In the past I know not all states required elect companies to deal fairly with you on your surplus power. It may not be quite as advantageous here. Seems last I looked they only paid you a fraction of what they charge for the same amount of power. NO just turning the meter backwards here.


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## cowboyhermit

Of course the panels should reduce the temperature of your roof, that can help in the summer.


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## Nadja

OK, I see I need to jump in here. I have been totally off grid for over 16 years now. My normal sized refer, chest freezer, two desk top computers, 27" tv, lights and just about anything else I choose to use at the time all run just fine on my little 2,000 watt system. The average system around here for entire house is about 5k. 

Now, should you be lucky enough that your :"proff installer" installed a duel usage inverter, grid tie and or stand alone , then you would only need batteries and charge controllers to be complete. Now, think grid down, in your present position, well, to put it lightly, you are in just as bad shape as anyone else connected/ depending on the grid. You cannot run directly off your solar, as it varies to much in the course of a day. Batteries , besides storing your excess charge for night time use, also "level" off your charge to a steady usable power for your inverter . I am going to throw in a couple of pic's here to let you all see my little home installed system. Keep in mind, I am no electrician, however, as messy as it appears, I can trouble shoot it myself.


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## cowboyhermit

Unfortunately I know how the solar guys work and I doubt they used an inverter that switches from grid to off grid when the power goes out. A manual switch over is definetley an option but the panels are probably wired at some high voltage and just hooking them to batteries will probably not be that easy.


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## LincTex

MountainKing said:


> Yes, it raises my taxes probably 5% on a normally $1800 tax valuation - which means I pay an extra $90 a year in taxes.


I so envy you. Texas has no income tax,but they sure make up for it on property taxes!!! Your house would be at least $6000 a year here, but most likely around $8K (due to the pool)


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## MountainKing

*Andi said:


> You see farm subsidies as alright, I do not (giving a farmer a check for not planting corn) ... You see incentives as good, I do not. (giving people a check to do what the g-ment wants you to do.)


I didn't say that. I said take advantage of them since they are offered. Do you think the 1% and the poor alike don't take advantage of the programs the government offers? Why would I (solidly middle class) pay my taxes to help them out and not avail myself of a benefit that is offered to me?



> As you said ... without the significant federal and state incentives (tax money), solar is a pretty hard sell ...
> 
> My question ... Why, would that be?


Well - you asked the question. Solar is a hard sell because the energy derived from coal, natural gas, and oil are far cheaper and part of the infrastructure already. And why is that I would ask you? Because oil, gas, and coal are heavily subsidized by the government. They get huge tax breaks and incentives which keep the prices low, which makes it unattractive to switch to alternative energy sources. And why do they get such attractive business footing? Because the politicians are bought and paid for by - ding, ding, ding - big oil, gas, and coal!!

So you see, clinging to coal and oil is just a roundabout subsidy of those industries. You can't escape it.

Not only that - but coal, oil, and natural gas have an additional expense that is not factored into the savings in your power bill. The environmental toll, the health toll, and other "non tangibles" are very real costs that should be considered.

Even if my solar array wasn't going to pay for itself in a few years and I had to pay 25% more above and beyond normally derived electricity (coal and nuclear generated here in my area of the Carolinas) - I would rather pay a premium and drive forward solar. Just because something is hard or expensive doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. With that mentality we'll burn up all our oil, then just keep burning coal until this greenhouse we live in is completely filled with CO2. <shrug>

MK


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## MountainKing

Nadja said:


> OK, I see I need to jump in here. I have been totally off grid for over 16 years now. My normal sized refer, chest freezer, two desk top computers, 27" tv, lights and just about anything else I choose to use at the time all run just fine on my little 2,000 watt system. The average system around here for entire house is about 5k.


That is good to know. Do you have any photos of your battery setup? I'm not very up on how the whole battery system works yet. In a few years, when we build the garage and design the battery bank, I'll get educated.



> Now, think grid down, in your present position, well, to put it lightly, you are in just as bad shape as anyone else connected/ depending on the grid. You cannot run directly off your solar, as it varies to much in the course of a day. Batteries , besides storing your excess charge for night time use, also "level" off your charge to a steady usable power for your inverter.


Agree completely. The batteries just weren't in the budget quite yet (thus the title Phase 1 of 3). How do the batteries charge - do they all charge simultaneously or do they charge one at a time to full capacity then move down the bank? Do you use a special type of battery and what kind of lifespan does the average solar networked battery have?

Very interested about how that all works.

MK


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## cowboyhermit

I don't want to contribute to any conflict on here, everyone has the right to their opinions and Andi always seems very respectful.

If we had to start fresh and build up an energy system for North America using free market principles it would look much different than it does today. Don't remember the numbers but the cost of replacing the current electrical generating and distribution system would be astronomical. 
The reason we have the grid today is in no small part thanks to the government that granted monopolies, subsidies, eminent domain, and all sorts of incentives to power companies.
For instance around the turn of the last century many people here had electricity on their farm from windmills, generators and such. Then the great rural electrification drive came through and hugely subsidized the cost of hooking up, the prices of power were also artificially low.
I could go on for pages so will stop now


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## cowboyhermit

Batteries are connected in a "bank", in series to achieve whatever voltage you require, then in parallel depending on how many batteries you will have. All batteries in a bank are charged at the same time, either by a charger or a charge controller that solar panels/wind are hooked to.
Automotive type batteries are not recommended except in rare circumstances, you use "deep cycle" batteries.
Everyone will have different numbers on how long batteries will last depending on all kinds of factors like temperature, type, manufacturer. The standard response is 5-10 years I think, though I would be disappointed with that time frame.


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## MountainKing

I respect Andi's stance on things - but to say "Sorry ... I never got past the "Cost of the array was $31,000."" doesn't seem very respectful. I outlined (in detail) the why's and how's of what we did in an attempt to educate people who might not understand how the rebate system significantly reduces the bottom line. Sometimes entrenched beliefs are difficult to shake though, so I don't begrudge him that. 

I agree with those things you said cowboyhermit about the "why" we have a power grid that looks like it does now. It was built decades ago for reasons and capabilities that existed at the time. Nobody ever dreamed that we'd probably be utilizing non-renewable natural resources at the rate we are now.

If anyone thinks the attached graph shows sustainability, I'll be more than happy to tear the panels off my roof and go for the cheap energy..


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## MountainKing

LincTex said:


> I so envy you. Texas has no income tax,but they sure make up for it on property taxes!!! Your house would be at least $6000 a year here, but most likely around $8K (due to the pool)


Hmm..really? My house is not very expensive comparatively. 2000 square feet, 3BR, 2 acres for $186K. The same house in someplace like Northern Virginia would probably be $400K (particularly with the property).

I guess it's about location, location, location. I think SC might have even cheaper property taxes..

But you must make up for it in in no income taxes right?

MK


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## MountainKing

cowboyhermit said:


> Batteries.....time frame.


Thanks for all of that. I assume they are lead acid? There are all kinds of battery technologies out there (gel cell, Ni-Cad, lithium)..but I don't know much about them. Would be nice if you could refurbish your own in a true SHTF scenario.

Although I'm always skeptical about the scenario anyway.. _"Hey..that guy has lights..lets go see what's going on over there.."_

Hopefully the M4 and a few other things will keep the curious away (doubt it)..

:gaah:

MK


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## cowboyhermit

Lead acid is the way to go long as size weight is not an issue.


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## hiwall

When lead-acid batteries die sometimes they can be brought back to life with Epson Salt!
There is alot on the net about it. Here is one.

http://www.ehow.com/how_10076192_desulfate-battery-epsom-salts.html


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## MountainKing

cowboyhermit said:


> Lead acid is the way to go long as size weight is not an issue.


Yeah, I don't think weight will be an issue. When we eventually build the garage we'll consult with the architect and solar installer to figure out the best place to put the batteries and how to "compartmentalize" (is that a word?) the battery bank so that it has the best cooling and the safest area. I was thinking something like an exterior alcove or something that might be a little below the slope of the land (almost like a root cellar) that allows them to be cooler. I imagine there are venting factors and other things too, but we'll have to cross that bridge when we get to it.

Interesting to know you can sometimes revive dead batteries. I think learning all the tricks is a good thing. Only one way to do that of course, is to live with the system. Sounds like some of you have been doing that for a long time and have a lot of useful information and experiences.

MK


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## cowboyhermit

Just to clarify, gel cells, AGM (absorbed glass mat), and flooded are all lead acid batteries that can be used for this, they each have their own strengths and weaknesses. 
What you want for the batteries is a place with a fairly constant temperature and some ventilation, though the type of battery will change how much is actually necessary. If batteries are cold they can store less energy, up here some machinery and vehicles even have little electric blankets to help them start in -40. If the batteries get hot their lifespan will definitely decrease, no matter what technology they are.


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## LincTex

hiwall said:


> http://www.ehow.com/how_10076192_desulfate-battery-epsom-salts.html


I don't mean any disrespect, but I warn others to be VERY careful with the "ehow" website. The bulk of really bad information far outweighs the rare bit of good, solid information on that site


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## hiwall

LincTex said:


> I don't mean any disrespect, but I warn others to be VERY careful with the "ehow" website. The bulk of really bad information far outweighs the rare bit of good, solid information on that site


When learning anything, you should always get more than one opinion. On the internet you could change that to at least 6 opinions.


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## CulexPipiens

cowboyhermit said:


> Just to clarify, gel cells, AGM (absorbed glass mat), and flooded are all lead acid batteries that can be used for this, they each have their own strengths and weaknesses.
> What you want for the batteries is a place with a fairly constant temperature and some ventilation, though the type of battery will change how much is actually necessary. If batteries are cold they can store less energy, up here some machinery and vehicles even have little electric blankets to help them start in -40. If the batteries get hot their lifespan will definitely decrease, no matter what technology they are.


If you want a serious battery education, list to the Steve Harris interview on TSP. He actually put together a basic site to contain all the info he talked about in the podcast. http://battery1234.com/ The first podcast link is mostly about batteries while the second one is more about building a battery system designed to sit in a truck bed box.


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## MountainKing

Cool info on the batteries.

I'm sitting here watching my array get iced over right now <g> Hopefully the doubling up of the roof rafters that the installers did will support the weight. If not - I'll post a picture of the carnage.



MK


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## LincTex

MountainKing said:


> Hopefully the doubling up of the roof rafters that the installers did will support the weight.


It honestly can't be much worse than what the roof would have had to hold anyway. You are just adding the weight of the panels.


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## cowboyhermit

I agree the panels are usually not very heavy at all anyways. They are more slippery than even a metal roof so snow buildup is usually not an issue if they are mounted correctly. We don't really get ice up here though so I am no expert on that.


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## MountainKing

Yeah, I picked up one of those panels when they were installing them and they were not heavy at all. Sort of like the weight of a framed picture if that. And the rails they are attached to I believe are aluminum, again fairly light weight. I would be curious what the overall weight of the array is - I never did ask.

MK


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## LincTex

probably around 20 pounds each? x the number of panels...

You may need a high pressure water hose to spray the panels down and melt the ice.


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## fondini

Very cool project! Thanks for Sharing the info with us, you certainly did the homework.


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## MountainKing

Today was a great day with the highest daily total to date 27.7 KwH generated. I still have some trees blocking the array. I just got the last piece of equipment I needed yesterday to climb the trees and limb them myself. I'm using an ascender, GriGri, and pulley to jug my way up to the higher limbs to take them down without having to take down the entire tree(s).

Yo-Yo Climbing

Once those upper limbs are down the power output graph should look more parabolic and overall total should go up. I'm really excited that I'm getting such good generation numbers so early in the season. This summer is going to be great!

MK


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## MountainKing

And this is what January in total looked like. A very wet January too..but you can see the trend as the sun edges ever higher in the sky. It is my expectation that by May or June the array should peak out at its maximum nominal capability of just under 7500 watts at the peak of the day.

MK


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## cowboyhermit

Good luck and BE CAREFUL, I have done a lot of climbing and trees are right up there as the most dangerous. Hopefully you have someone standing by, just in case. I am sure everything will go fine and that is very useful equipment, look forward to seeing if there is a measurable difference.


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## MountainKing

Thanks - yeah, I'm being careful. I'm big into hiking and have done a little roped climbing. I'm going to make sure I do it safely. I figured it was something I needed to learn to do since I live on a property with a LOT of trees. Paying an arborist to come out and do it over time would cost me a lot of money. I'm a big fan of learning how to do things myself when at all possible.

If I were 20 years old I probably would just climb the trees like I did when I was a kid. <g>

MK


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## MountainKing

Went tree climbing today. The GriGri rig works great. Just using a Wyoming Saw up in the limbs since chainsaws and ropes don't get along well together <g>. Pretty tiring work - I have a new respect for those loggers that climb trees and do all that work up there.

MK


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## MountainKing

Just updating so that people can take a look at solid numbers as opposed to speculative math. 

I received my January power bill yesterday. The grid didn't meet the power projections for January due to an extremely wet (read: not sunny) month..and the array is still getting shadowed by trees for a few hours in the morning (I'm remedying that limb by limb each day).

So the net reduction in the power bill year over year was about $45. ($134.98 vs. $90.49). Again, our home is totally electric (no natural gas or other energy sources), so that does represent our total energy use for the month. (Unless one deducts the blood, sweat, and tears of chopping firewood for the woodstove - but that is a labor of love.)

Total consumption in Jan 2012 was 1440 kWh
Total consumption in Jan 2013 was 1476 kWh

The breakdown, as I understand it, for the Jan 2013 bill is:

1071 kWh of power provided by Duke Energy
-184 kWh that I sent back down TO the grid
= 887 kWh I paid for

That doesn't really show the 221 kWh that I used directly off the array. It is my understanding that the house uses the energy off the array first, then whatever excess is produced goes through the meter down to the power grid. So, for instance, if I'm generating say 5,000 watts, and the house is using 3,000 watts, then that 3,000 never shows up on the power bill, only the 2,000 watts I'm sending to the grid does (as a net reduction in power consumption).

So anyway - that's $45 of energy I didn't have to buy from the power company and that I apply to the cost of the array. I suspect Feb is going to be much better since we are already near 172 kWh generation for only the first 8 days of the month (compared to 405 kWh for all of January). 

Oh - and also I get to sell my renewable energy credits (RECs) to the approximate same tune ($45) on the NC renewable energy credits site (although I think I let those RECs accumulate for several months before I actually get them back).

I'll continue to post the generation numbers as they come in.

MK


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## Viking

MountainKing, I for one, am proud of what you have done and are going to do. Yesterday my wife and I made the first step toward going solar on our home. Being as we have used our motorhome as a solar test bed for understanding what solar can do we are confident that even a relatively small solar system can take care of most of our electrical needs. We purchased a pure sine wave inverter/charger. 24 VDC input, 120/240 VAC output 4000 watts continuous power output that can be stacked up to four units. I doubt that we would need any more than two and may be able to get by with just the one as we are changing light bulbs from CFL's to LED's which us less watts. 25 watt equivalent LED's use only 2 or 3.5 watts and 65 watt equivalent LED's use about 13 watts. The main consumers of power will be two refrigerators and a freezer and they only run about 1/3rd of a 24 hour period. I have to sit down and figure amp hours we'll be using to come up with the amount of batteries needed with the consideration of extra reserve capacity. Once I have the batteries figured out then I'll have to figure solar panels needed to restore discharged batteries, figuring in the shorter days of late fall, winter and early spring. The solar panels we have on the motorhome are 44 cell while most other panels use 32 and 36 cell. 44 cell panels can produce enough voltage on cloudy/hazy days to get a basic charge on the batteries to supply reduced usage for that evening. We are not going totally off grid unless or until basic service fees and watts per hour charges get to be unaffordable or the whole grid system fries. We are not going to sell unused power to the power company because we may use solar to power on lower current draw systems and use public power for the water heater, dryer and a built in electric heater in the bathroom. After a SHTF situation the water heater, dryer and electric heater wouldn't be used as they eat far too many watts. We otherwise heat our home with a very efficient wood stove.


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## MountainKing

Thanks for the encouragement. I do believe in economies of scale, and think that if the entire country adopted this technology the price would plummet. I envision a day when all roofs are constructed with integrated solar panels of some sort. I can only imagine that the coal and natural gas lobbies will do everything in their power to make that not happen. It is such a shame. Even if we could offset 30 to 60% of our energy needs with solar, it would be such a huge boon to the environment and our collective wallets.

Anyway - I did my taxes today and was happy to see the numbers come rolling back in. $9900 in direct federal tax credit. I use TurboTax to do my taxes and unfortunately they didn't seamlessly integrate the NC Renewable Energy tax credit documents into their State Edition. So you have to go to the NC state documents repository and do two forms (NC-478G and NC-478). I was surprised to see that the allowable credit is actually 50% of the total allowable in NC (for some reason I thought I was going to get the credit back in 1/3 increments over the next 3 years). So the total allowable for NC was $10,500 / 2 years = $5,250 per year over the next two years.

So total rebate for this year with Fed and State combined looks like $15,150 with another $5,250 due from the State next year (the Fed gives it all back in one lump sum).

And yesterday was our best solar generation day yet with 33 kWh generated (a bit more than $3.00 in energy). I was out building my kid a sandbox and got sunburned. And our flowers are blooming in NC - weird winter.

On a side note - I was watching Doomsday Preppers last night (always good entertainment) and they featured the one with the guy that thought the New Madrid fault might split the country in half. Anyway - he had a relatively small solar array, but his battery bank was awesome. I can't wait to build the battery portion.

MK


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## MountainKing

Viking said:


> 25 watt equivalent LED's use only 2 or 3.5 watts and 65 watt equivalent LED's use about 13 watts.
> 
> and...
> 
> After a SHTF situation the water heater, dryer and electric heater wouldn't be used as they eat far too many watts. We otherwise heat our home with a very efficient wood stove.


We've done the same thing. I think I've replaced about 80% of our lighting with LEDs so far. Not cheap, but hopefully it will work out in the long run. I'd like to get rid of our older plasma style TV and replace it with something that takes less energy (LCD? LED?).

Regarding the water heater - I'd guess that is probably one of our biggest electrical drains in our house (besides maybe the refridge/freezer). In a true SHTF situation it would be nice to have an alternative to heat the water, but I haven't researched anything yet. I've always thought it would be kind of neat to have a chimney built that had integrated water pipes that could be used as a heat exchanger to heat water. It would obviously be most useful in the winter, then in the summer you could just use some type of solar system perhaps since the water would need so much heating.

We can always resort to just heating a big ole' pot of water on our woodstove and taking a lukewarm bath I suppose. Interested in solar water heating methods though..for sure!

MK


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## cowboyhermit

It is not that difficult to add some hot water coils to a wood stove, it might be tricky to make it look pretty  You can have the water running to your regular water heater preheated this way to save power, there is really no disadvantage, a small solar collector can also be used to preheat/heat water but it might be more complicated if you have to consider freezing.
You have to be careful when cooling off a part of your chimney though, as with the pipes you mention, it can be done but can also cause creosote deposits to accumulate if you are not careful.


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## LincTex

A plain steel tank (from a discarded water heater) painted black and in the full sunlight will scald you even after sitting in the sun on a cool day. 

A little of that foil-lined OSB they are using for roof sheathing now-a-days can build a "solar oven" around it. A discarded sliding patio door would provide the final wall. I'll bet that would make hot water in freezing weather!

Water in a plain blue plastic 55 gallon poly drum in full Texas sunlight will get way over 120 degrees (scalding), and it isn't even black.


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## Viking

I seem to remember an article in Mother Earth News where a guy took bendable copper tubing and made it into a coil and laid the coil into a shallow form and poured plaster of paris in the form covering all the coils leaving an inlet and outlet and then somehow strapped this to his wood stove. When I was a pre-teen my grandmother had a wood cook stove that had a water coil in the fire box that was connected to a 55 gallon tank that sat behind the stove. No pump was needed as the tank was heated by convection. I remember feeling the tank frequently until it was all the way heated at which point we could run bath water. LincTex's ideas are great for summer months. We didn't realize we would be living permanently in what started as a small cabin, which is now just over 1,300 sq.ft., or I would have plumbed hot water lines to the wood stove and to an area that I could connect solar heated water.


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## Viking

In using solar to heat water in freezing climates heat exchange units are often used. It's a closed system from the outside heat collector to a coil inside a hot water tank and either an antifreeze fluid or high temp light oil is used in the closed system to keep that fluid from freezing, only thing is that this system needs a circulating pump. The water heater that's in our motorhome has three ways that it's heated, one is by the heater lines coming from the engine, 120 VAC and propane. The diesel engine doesn't give up enough heat to really do all that good, propane just goes to fast so we don't use that and unless we're in a campground the electrical heater uses up too much solar power so we just don't use the water heater. It's a lot quicker to use the stove to heat whatever hot water we need.


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## cowboyhermit

Those little plastic bag solar showers work pretty awesome for the most basic needs, even just hanging in a south window. I wish they made ones with a bit better materials. I gave up on the hot water heater on our camping trailer, too much darn propane  of course it is OLD and efficiency is probably terrible but we could cook for a month or have hot water for less than a week. A couple of those shower bags on the roof though, with some longer hoses and it works decently.


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## Caribou

Since you broached the subjects, the only real negative for me is the politics. While I am really pleased by what you have pulled of a bit of me is less pleased to have to pay for it. I removed the siding from my house, added insulation, upgraded the windows, and replaced the siding. I replaced the forced air furnace with an efficient boiler. I replaced the electric water heater with an indirect water heater (another zone off the boiler). While I looked at the rebate programs (really hard) I just could not emotionally pull the funds out of the economy. I know, I know, it doesn't make a lot of sense but it works for me. While my oil consumption has only diminished by 15%-20% my electricity bill has dropped from around $200/mo in the summer and sometimes over $700 in the winter to less than $100/mo year around.

As far as the environmental effect, I do not believe in man made global warming. The earth has dealt with far worse than man. A thousand years ago the vikings had communities in Greenland till things cooled down too much. Back in school we learned about multiple ice ages so global warming and cooling is normal.

Right now we are finding oil and gas faster than we are burning it. We also have newer technology that may well cause old fields to reopen. We have a few hundred years worth of gas and oil right now with more being discovered all the time. Well before we run out of oil we will have the technology to harvest methane. The methane we know of will keep us for a few hundred years. Before the methane harvesting technology matures the solar technology should be cost effective.

You may want to do some research on controllers for electrical system before you do your next upgrade. If your contractor did you a favor he sold you a controller that you can put multiple sources of energy through. I would suggest at least four inputs for solar, generator, grid, and batteries. A fifth input would be nice for expansion if it did not cost too much. I know you don't like the idea of a generator but plans change and having the option for a generator or an unthought of electrical source is cheaper to set up for than to completely redesign the system later. 

Most people go for golf cart batteries but any deep cycle battery should serve you well. Buy them in pairs and buy as many pairs as you can the first time around. Golf cart batteries are six volt so a pair is twelve volt. Do not mix old batteries and new ones on the same bank. An old bank and a new bank might be a good use of your spare input on the controller. Put your batteries on a bench. This will keep them off the floor, lift the batteries where it is a couple degrees warmer, and most importantly rise them to a level where they are easy to work on. Your batteries will give off hydrogen but this is so light that you will not have to worry about it accumulating under normal conditions. I have blown up a battery by messing with the connection while it was being charged so some care does need to be taken.

You really have a sweet setup. It will be fun to watch the progression.


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## MountainKing

I have zero qualms about taking advantage of government subsidies. I've paid for 25 years into a Social Security system (with 25 more to go) for something I doubt will even be there for me. Oil companies and defense contractors have used my tax dollars to do things I don't approve of. Senators and House Representatives take my money, bundle it up and give it to their special interest groups and projects all the time. So I have zero heartache over taking advantage of a program set up for something I'm interested in.

What will be really interesting will be what happens if solar or other alternative energies really take off. Take Europe for example. I've been reading that some governments that are getting very hard up for cash are actually TAXING people that have solar arrays because the fact they generate their own electricity means the government isn't collecting that revenue (nor are power companies - which means government is just an extension of big industry). A friend of mine lives in Belgium and they are getting taxed per kWh now to make up for government shortfalls.

As for global warming - that is a debate left to another thread. All I know is that if I put my car in the garage, turn on the motor, that volume of air inside the garage becomes uninhabitable in a very short time. Multiple that time billions and billions of emitters and I think it is easy to see how the thin slice of usable atmosphere can be "converted" over such a short time. Taking millions of years of potential energy and converting it over the course of a hundred years into kinetic energy simply means that heat and pollutants are created, there are no getting around the laws of physics. I think the CO2 record (taken from ice core samples) shows this is far different than ice age type movement.

Regarding oil and gas. Yes, we are finding it, but we are only finding it because the price point ($100 a barrel) makes it attractive. It is "hard" oil to find, is energy intensive to extract, and uses more exotic methods (fracking, oil sands) that have serious environmental drawbacks. If oil drops to $60 a barrel we'll see how much of that drilling in those hard places happens. I've flown over the denuded mountain tops in West Virginia where mountain top coal removal has occurred. Ask the people who live downstream from the streams that flow off those mountains if it has affected their environment.

A point I agree on - the Earth will recover when we are (as a species) far and away removed. It will shrug us off like a bad case of fleas. So I don't despair for the Earth at all, it will find a way to deal with us. I just think it's hilarious that we won't try to reach a more balanced relationship with it and instead choose to just consume it all as though it were made just for us.

Regarding the next upgrade - my installer is pretty darn good, so I'm confident he will be able to design a system that will meet our desires. I'm not opposed to a generator - like I said, we have one of those (500?) gallon residential propane tanks, so I would love to have a generator tied to my house for times when the power goes down (assuming I don't have a battery bank in the next few years).

Tonight we got a few inches of heavy, wet snow. The roof hasn't caved in (yet), so I guess the beefing up of the rafters worked.. <g>

Thanks for the comments and suggestions. I appreciate that other people have a different view of things and I'm always interested to hear other opinions.

MK


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## MountainKing

This is what it looks like when the snow melts and starts sliding off the array...


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## dahur

MountainKing said:


> Yep, my installer said the same thing as you. He said that just a little bit of shadowing can affect the power output for that entire panel - they are apparently constructed to be in full sun and efficiency drops off significantly even if just a portion of the individual panel is shadowed. We are slowly getting the trees down, it just takes a long time. I took me a couple weeks (actually about a month) to get the four big oaks I cut down all chopped up into firewood. I just finished clearing up all the residual small branches the other day. So now I'll move on to the ones that are closer in and blocking the morning to 1PM sun.
> 
> Like you, I hate cutting down trees. But losing 8 or 9 when we probably have 60 to 80 on the property doesn't seem so bad, but still...
> 
> I'll post the new graph of the output when I do get them down - I'm betting it will look more like a parabola instead of having any jaggies in it.
> 
> It is funny how consistent the output is on sunny days - although that should not be surprising at all.. Here is the past three days including today:


The shadowing issue is one of the benefits of having micro inverters. When I have a cloud go over, only THAT panel is affected. The rest in the sun keep right on going full speed. With a one inverter system, one panel being shaded drops the entire array down to that voltage.


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## dahur

Just to give a look at a different kind of system, with the micro inverters I can see what each individual panel is outputting.










On my production graph, it shows we had clouds yesterday, but if you look at the previous 7 days, it was all clear skies. Typically here in southern NM, we get over 300 clear days a year. My 3.6 kw system generates its highest this time of year (spring, and fall). I'm averaging over 24 kw a day right now, but that average will drop to 21 or 22 in the summer, despite the longer days. Solar panels love the sun, but hate the heat.










I signed a 13 year contract with PNM to buy all my REC's at 13 cents per kw. 
In effect I pay 10 cents for each kw I use. They pay me 23 cents for each one I generate. This arrangement has zeroed my bill out for three years. 
They also pay me $60-80 per month for my surplus. 
I plan on replacing my propane hot water heater with a HW heat pump this year. That'll probably eat up my surplus.


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## dahur

cowboyhermit said:


> SNMILLICAN, yes a properly designed system is very modular, you can add batteries and panels as you go.


This is true when using micro inverters. When you use one inverter, that inverter is designed for a set number of panels.


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## cowboyhermit

Micro inverters have some real advantages and it is good for people to consider all options.
IMHO they are not the best for a system that may be used off-grid, one where you might utilize the benefits of DC power, or a system that may use multiple sources of energy such as wind, generator, etc.

The problem of shading is only confined to the cells within a panel anyways, so the micro inverter will work fine but so will panels wired together at 12V DC for example.

If you don't intend on using dc, batteries, or a wide range of charging options micro inverters may be a good option, they certainly help with wire sizing


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## AnonyManx

dahur said:


> Typically here in southern NM, we get over 300 clear days a year. My 3.6 kw system generates its highest this time of year (spring, and fall). I'm averaging over 24 kw a day right now, but that average will drop to 21 or 22 in the summer, despite the longer days. Solar panels love the sun, but hate the heat.


You're in a much better solar location than we are in, but here's our public Enlighten page (if you're curious)...
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/2wA821115


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## dahur

AnonyManx said:


> You're in a much better solar location than we are in, but here's our public Enlighten page (if you're curious)...
> https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/2wA821115


Wow, did I count 42 panels...?


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## AnonyManx

dahur said:


> Wow, did I count 42 panels...?


Yes you did. We have a fairly large, all-electric house (no gas to our neighborhood; evil HOA prevents propane tanks), so we do not zero-out our power bill. That said, in a worst-case scenario we could watch what we produce and cut out usage SEVERELY to get by. I just noticed no Enlighten data for today... DH keeps unplugging the Envoy in order to plug in his business computer. I'll be glad when he migrates to his new business computer and no longer needs the one Ethernet connection in the basement! At least the data is uploading now that I've reconnected the Envoy.


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## dahur

AnonyManx said:


> Yes you did. We have a fairly large, all-electric house (no gas to our neighborhood; evil HOA prevents propane tanks), so we do not zero-out our power bill. That said, in a worst-case scenario we could watch what we produce and cut out usage SEVERELY to get by. I just noticed no Enlighten data for today... DH keeps unplugging the Envoy in order to plug in his business computer.


Despite where you live having a lower sun hours per day, are you happy with the investment..? I only wish I had installed a larger system. I just found out in contacting PNM, if I want to expand I can, but any additional panels have to wired straight to the main meter. No REC's for me on the expansion part. I'm seriously considering a Carrier Greenspeed heat pump for AC and heating. That heat pump is good down to 9 degrees, which should wipe out my propane bill completely. If I had your system here, even my plans to add an EV, would be covered.

Here's some pics of my PV system:




























Would you mind posting a picture of your system...?


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## Viking

Because of for potential for shading of one of the four panels on the motor home, and it has happened, I am happy to have gotten 44 cell panels because even on reduced sunlight conditions that higher voltage output per panel allowed for a good charge on the house batteries. It's the same reason we're getting 72 cell panels for our home off grid system as they produce 36 volts in direct sun and even with less solar charge days they will produce enough volts to charge a bank of batteries at 24 volts. This is where the technology of an MPPT solar panel controller is so outstanding in converting the higher voltage panel voltage ranges into viable charging rates. I don't know if everyone knows this but most solar panels are diode protected so that if one panel is shaded there is no bleed back into that panel, it would be as if it was disconnected and of course that's why it's not a bad idea to have more panels than is needed under prime operating conditions.


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## cowboyhermit

Yeah they should all have a diode, ensuring that at most one panel is affected. Many have several "bypass Diodes" so that shade on one part of the panel (cell) allows the rest to function. A MPPT charge controller or inverter enables you to get more usable power from panels with different outputs. In general with new panels and controllers a shadow here or there is not as detrimental as it used to be. Even indoors a solar panel will put out some voltage.


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## AnonyManx

dahur said:


> Despite where you live having a lower sun hours per day, are you happy with the investment..?
> 
> ...
> 
> Would you mind posting a picture of your system...?


We ARE pleased with the investment. We look at it as pre-buying a big chunk of electricity, since "energy prices will necessarily skyrocket." We have concerns about the value of the dollar long-term, and decided we'd be better off tying up some of our resources in property improvements. Hence the large addition over the garage (the garage also got expanded for better storage) and the solar system. The back of our house faces almost perfect solar-south, and we lost the big trees that shaded the back in a storm about a year before the panels went up. We are blessed to be completely debt-free, so we were able to do that easily. We have our installer handle selling our SRECs, but the price is regulated by the state of Maryland.

The picture below was taken right after the solar panels went on (in June 2011). In the time since, we have uprooted the bushes to the left of the screened-in porch and installed a couple of large raised veggie beds (evil HOA has strict rules about those, too). We have also put a rain barrel on the porch downspout, which makes it convenient to the raised beds.

ETA: Our best day, production-wise, was around 66.3 kWh. Our production varies wildly due to Maryland's wild weather swings.


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## dahur

AnonyManx said:


> We ARE pleased with the investment. We look at it as pre-buying a big chunk of electricity, since "energy prices will necessarily skyrocket." We have concerns about the value of the dollar long-term, and decided we'd be better off tying up some of our resources in property improvements. Hence the large addition over the garage (the garage also got expanded for better storage) and the solar system. The back of our house faces almost perfect solar-south, and we lost the big trees that shaded the back in a storm about a year before the panels went up. We are blessed to be completely debt-free, so we were able to do that easily. We have our installer handle selling our SRECs, but the price is regulated by the state of Maryland.
> 
> The picture below was taken right after the solar panels went on (in June 2011). In the time since, we have uprooted the bushes to the left of the screened-in porch and installed a couple of large raised veggie beds (evil HOA has strict rules about those, too). We have also put a rain barrel on the porch downspout, which makes it convenient to the raised beds.
> 
> ETA: Our best day, production-wise, was around 66.3 kWh. Our production varies wildly due to Maryland's wild weather swings.


Awesome...thanks for the pic. I look at it the same way as you do. My money sitting in the bank was getting less than 1%. Out in the yard, it's at least 12%. Isn't it great HOA can't say anything about getting solar.(as far as I know, in most states). 
My best day was 26.4 on my 3.6 kw system. With the PNM contract, I can use up to around 50 kw a day and break even. I use about that in the summer months. The other 8 months I use 15 a day.


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## LincTex

AnonyManx said:


> no gas to our neighborhood; evil HOA prevents propane tanks


Check to see if you can have a "facade" shed built around it to hide it. Legal in many places, but Maryland sucks.


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## MountainKing

Wow..awesome setup there. I'll comment more later and upload some new screens later. My installer came out to finish up a couple things that he wanted to be right. He had installed a sensor card during the initial installation that wasn't registering, but he got it working yesterday. It reports the windspeed, ambient temperature, array temperature, and some other parameters that get data-logged as well. Not having it didn't affect the power generation, but he is a perfectionist and wanted it to work correctly. 

Will upload screens later and comment on the other stuff (great photos!)..

MK


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## MountainKing

Got my power bill today and thought I'd post the results. Year of year a reduction of around 64 dollars..although there was one extra day in last year's month. Feb wasn't the most consistent solar month again..a good bit of rain. Slowly getting the few remaining limbs out of the way so they aren't shadowing the array.

I'm very happy with the output and am now looking at a solar water heater since that represents probably 30% of our electrical use in our 100% electric home.

MK


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## MountainKing

So my guy made his last visit (all part of the original contract - no extra costs) to drop off my total install package (all of the manuals and instructions and spec sheets, etc..) and he got the additional data monitoring card working. He said he had flip-flopped some wires in the sending unit up in the attic. So now, in addition to the power monitoring and stuff we also have a few other parameters: wind speed, ambient temperature, array temperature, and I think the other one is solar radiation per square meter or something like that..

In doing some research last night I also was wondering if we might be better of on Duke Energy's On Demand power billing but we figured out that it wouldn't be worth the risk simply because of that On Demand Peak multiplier thing that could get you into trouble if you suddenly had a surge of usage for one 15 minute period which would drive up the multiplier for the whole month. Too bad that is part of the plan..

http://www.duke-energy.com/pdfs/NCScheduleES.pdf

vs.

http://www.duke-energy.com/pdfs/NCScheduleRT.pdf

If I were at all electrically savvy I would figure out a way to put in some sort of current limiter to prevent going too high for peak demand - something that would shut off like the dryer or dishwasher or something to prevent exceeding a certain threshold. Then one could benefit from the lower rates without having to fret about counting amperage or worrying about it..

MK


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## Viking

Back in 1979-1980 I was working for a heating and air conditioning business in the Denver area and there was a bunch of townhomes being built in South Denver that the power company talked the home owners into getting power factor meters. One of the owners collared me about an outrageous power bill thinking that something was wrong the the heat pump. I did a little research and found that out of all the people my boss had contracts with only one guy had a computer controlled power system. The rest of the people had no idea that if they did the laundry, cooked meals and heated/air conditioned at the same time the power factor multiplier needle could go to two or three. All I could tell them is not to do everything at the same time, do them by the number or get a computer controlled system to shed the least necessary large power users in order to keep the power factor meter needle below one. When I told them about that they were very upset that the power company had told them that they could save money by going that route. I often wonder just how many people use computer controlled power other than the Smart Meters that are shoved down peoples throats.


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## MountainKing

Yeah..I was very disappointed when I started running the math and saw that the demand factor would kill us. And all it takes is one 15 minute period per month when you are spiking and it demolishes you for the month. Bummer..those 5 to 6 cent per kwH rates were looking quite attractive. I wonder who would actually use that system.. The only thing I can think of is a person who has a fixed electrical power use profile or something, but I can't figure out who that would be.

Oh well, it was worth looking into.. I should have known Duke Energy would be several steps ahead of us.. <g>

MK


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## MountainKing

Now I'm trying to figure out *where* I could mount a solar hot water collector since my entire roof is taken up by the PV array. I had read that you could maybe mount them vertically on the walls..which would be pretty good for me since I have a lot of open brick space on the back of my house facing south like the array. But I'm sure you'd lose efficiency not having them inclined toward the mean sun tracking angle.

I marked up this photo with maybe a proposed location.. But I don't know, might be better to find another option. Other than smack in the middle of the lawn (which I won't do) I really can't think of anything. I'd be loathe to cut down any more trees to give a frame mounted unit get sun..

MK

PS - Those trees are no longer shadowing the array.. <g>


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## Viking

Actually that side and the right side are really open for hanging solar heat water panels because there is a lot of shear strength to the brick walls that you have.


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## MountainKing

Yeah - I marked up the photo with them on that left side of the wall because that is the side closest to the water heater tank which sits in the crawl space under the house. I was just thinking a shorter pipe run but I don't know if that matters or not. I guess if I wanted to incline them a bit toward the sun I could also have some sort of high strength awning or something installed over the french doors perhaps that would give them a tilt toward the sun.

I don't know - it is a project for later in the year since I want to get the PV array paid off first..

My first order of business is to get a new 2-speed pump for the pool that should save 50 to 80% of the electric cost over the inefficient single speed one I have now.

MK

Edit - maybe a longer pipe run of black pipe isn't a bad thing..more heating from the sun? <g>


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## MountainKing

Just an update - March was a great month for the array. We generated 892 kWh in March - approximately $89 worth of electricity. 

MK


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## MountainKing

And the March power bill is in. Of interest is that March was one of the coldest in our area since records were kept - but despite that our bill was very low. Of course, we didn't have to turn the electric heat on but one or two times for about an hour on mornings when I didn't get up early enough to stoke up the wood burning stove - so that kept the bill down too..

_March is in the books and most people could not be happier since it was the 5th coldest since 1939 in Charlotte. That's when they moved the official observations to the airport. The average temperature for the month was 46.1° which was 5.1° below the 30 year average. If you go back to 1878 when records began in Charlotte this was the 8th coldest on record. What makes this March seem so much colder is the fact that last March we had the 2nd warmest on record. So in the span of a year we went from one of the warmest March's on record in Charlotte to one of the coldest._ - Source

Very happy with how this solar thing is going thus far...

MK


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## MountainKing

Oops..Double Post..


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## MountainKing

Just sending updates to show this stuff works..and saves real money.. April wasn't the greatest month compared to March due to the rain. But the garden liked it!



















MK


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## fondini

MountainKing said:


> Just sending updates to show this stuff works..and saves real money.. April wasn't the greatest month compared to March due to the rain. But the garden liked it!
> 
> MK


This is great stuff! Thanks for sharing.


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## MountainKing

I think part of the battle is also that whole "energy awareness" factor that almost becomes automatic when you install something like solar/hydro/wind. You invest the money into the equipment and you automatically see energy as more of a commodity than you did previously. Yeah sure, I would gripe my son about leaving the door open with the air conditioning running before PV..but after PV we turn off EVERYTHING whenever we aren't using it. Little things like that can I add up and the newly formed habits are helpful.

Of course, our bills are going to go up here as the summer gets going. No getting around the air conditioning..but the solar will offset some of it. 

MK


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## zimmy

*Solar install*

When ever a person installs a renewable energy project the big question is always "how long before it pays for itself". Yet when a person buys a car, boat, motorcycle, snowmobile, or some other worldly goods that question is never asked. Thanks for thinking outside the box!


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## MountainKing

Sorry for the lack up updates recently. Life has been busy..

Thought I'd post this last comparative bill. Our year over year energy use remained about the same for the month - which is somewhat disappointing because that means we haven't been turning off the TV and we've been running the A/C at probably too cool a setting at night. But the total bill is still a significant savings year over year.

As the sun moved higher in the sky this summer some trees that weren't a problem at lower sun angles have started to shadow the array for a couple hours in the morning and for a couple hours in the evening. So I'm going to have to go up and top off some of the branches. I think we could gain another 20% if I do that.

Summary - 2250 KWH last year I paid Duke Energy $230.52 and this year for the same "consumption" my bill was $88.01..a savings of $142... Not bad..!

Also installed a variable speed pool pump that is really cool since it allows me to set on its control panel how many watts it is running at. The mfg. claims up to 90% energy reduction..but I doubt that will be the case. I'm guessing maybe somewhere on the order of 60 to 70% in reality. We'll see. I wish I knew how many watts my old 1.5HP constant speed pump was using per hour. How would I calculate that?










MK


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## cowboyhermit

That 90% would probably be if set at the lowest possible setting and against a terribly inefficient pump 
1.5 hp = 1118.54981 watts theoretically, so it depends on how it was rated.
If you don't have a clamp multimeter or a kill-a-watt type device to plug it into then about all you can do is look for specs on the motor :dunno:


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## helicopter5472

WHAT IF.....What if Obama instead of giving our tax dollars to a few solar companies, who he expected would give him a big chunk of it to his campaign, said I would like to propose a bill that all new housing construction be designed with solar built into them, and that instead of giving one or two solar companies millions we will pay the difference of cost in your new home so you could afford it..... Naw, first of all wouldn't give him the millions he thinks he needs to get votes, besides making any real honest sense of improving our country is not in his play book or the parties...


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## cowboyhermit

helicopter5472 said:


> WHAT IF.....What if Obama instead of giving our tax dollars to a few solar companies, who he expected would give him a big chunk of it to his campaign, said I would like to propose a bill that all new housing construction be designed with solar built into them, and that instead of giving one or two solar companies millions we will pay the difference of cost in your new home so you could afford it..... Naw, first of all wouldn't give him the millions he thinks he needs to get votes, besides making any real honest sense of improving our country is not in his play book or the parties...


I see what you're saying but I don't think the government should have any say in how I build a house or any other building for that matter. I have worked with many solar installations up here in Canada that have been completely economically viable without a penny of government support.

If it weren't for government policy and interference in the first place we would have much more alternative energy already, just one instance is thousands of farmer owned wind generators that were taken out of use with the push for "rural electrification".


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## helicopter5472

cowboyhermit said:


> I see what you're saying but I don't think the government should have any say in how I build a house or any other building for that matter. I have worked with many solar installations up here in Canada that have been completely economically viable without a penny of government support.
> 
> If it weren't for government policy and interference in the first place we would have much more alternative energy already, just one instance is thousands of farmer owned wind generators that were taken out of use with the push for "rural electrification".


Well I agree about the govt. getting any more involved in the actual building, Your structure, electrical, plumbing, soil test ect already is.

I just think more people would go solar if they didn't have to pay the huge upfront cost. If I had the choice of a 150K home with a 40K solar system included free, I don't think too many people would turn it down.

Even if you can write parts of it off over several years, many people would rather get it now, included.

Then again, it gives just those who can afford a new home free tax monies from me and you. (Rebates do the same thing)

It seems a better alternative than paying millions to a company who will just funnel the money elsewhere and file, and be gone.


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## cowboyhermit

helicopter5472 said:


> Well I agree about the govt. getting any more involved in the actual building, Your structure, electrical, plumbing, soil test ect already is. *Not mine*
> 
> I just think more people would go solar if they didn't have to pay the huge upfront cost. If I had the choice of a 150K home with a 40K solar system included free, I don't think too many people would turn it down.
> 
> Even if you can write parts of it off over several years, many people would rather get it now, included.
> 
> Then again, it gives just those who can afford a new home free tax monies from me and you. (Rebates do the same thing)
> 
> It seems a better alternative than paying millions to a company who will just funnel the money elsewhere and file, and be gone.


I agree paying millions to a company like that was very bad, I just don't think rebates or subsidies or giving money to those building new homes are good ideas either


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## MountainKing

I think the reality of the situation is that our government is run by those with the greatest lobbying power. Oil companies, pharmaceuticals, and defense department contractors. Frankly, I'm surprised that solar subsidies ever made it into any federal or state planning (I believe many of them are set to expire in 2014 or 2016..) and I think the energy companies have been surprised by the amount of people taking advantage of them. I think those subsidies will be going away very soon.

Every industry (defense in particular) has benefited or continues to benefit from huge taxpayer subsidies. I have no heartburn about utilizing one for the installation of solar panels. 

Mandating anything doesn't seem like a good idea, but offering alternatives does. It is a huge debate on government and its role in industry with side debates on energy efficiency, pollution, and all those things that go along with it. Not as simple as one might think for sure..

MK


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## DM1791

*Wow.... Thanks!!*

I am thoroughly impressed with this thread. You have an awesome system set up. I've been on the fence about solar for a while, but you've posted some real numbers that are hard to argue with.

Unfortunately, our home is in a horrible spot for solar at the moment. However, I am in the process of designing a system as a backup for my mother's home that is in an ideal position and location for solar collection. She wants a backup for power failures, etc. I have been investigating only stand alone systems, but after seeing your numbers I may have to look into a grid-tie system with batter bank back-ups.

Also good to see that the tax incentives and what not cut cost some. I am like you.... my tax dollars have been going to subsidize all kinds of things I disagree with, find reprehensible, and never see the benefits of for years. Time I reap some of the rewards for rendering unto Ceaser for so long.

Mega kudos.


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