# to trade or not to trade???



## smaj100 (Oct 17, 2012)

Alright folks Here's the question.

I have a vepr in 7.62x54r along with a 1942 mosin. Both guns are mint, with accessories and almost 3k rnds of ammo. Do I trade these 2 for something in the 308 family? I have a bolt 308 and have been looking for something semi, possibly ar10 or m1.

Thoughts and opinions are welcomed.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Personally I would save up for an AR10 style rifle. Or you could but it piece by piece and build it yourself. The AR10 is entering it's prime but VEPR's are going to become more and more rare as time goes on. Mosins are a dime a dozen, but they are hardy and ammo is not that hard to find. Plus I always seem to regret selling or trading guns. I follow the add don't subtract philosophy.


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## smaj100 (Oct 17, 2012)

Sentry,

I've thought about keeping them and wasn't really out to trade or get rid of them. I do reload all of my own ammo and getting the supplies to reload the 54r is a pain in the butt. I've built a few m4's so putting one together is an option. 

Pros v Cons on m1 v ar10?


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Have you ever shot an AR10? The short barrel leads to what I feel is rather severe muzzle blast. Loud and kicking. For that reason alone I would go with the m1. But that is only my opinion of those two choices.


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## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

An ar10 or an M1 are both very heavy rifles to carry around. Plus the ammo is also very heavy. Since you already have a bolt .308 maybe think about an AR 15 for the weight. Unless you want to keep 1 caliber only. If that's the case I would do the ar10. Since its an open design there are more manufacturers making them and im pretty sure Springfield is still the only one making the M1 which makes them much more expensive.


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

Here's my philosophy on armaments as it relates to your question:

1. KISS (Keep it simple, stupid.) In other words, don't have guns that require hard to find ammunition. 7.62 x 54R is not hard to find and is relatively cheap in bulk. Neither is 7.62 x 51 though it is a bit more expensive. But 7.62 x 51 is used by US forces so it may be easier to find if something happens.

2. Always remember the purpose of each gun you own. A pistol is for close in defense while a rifle is for longer ranges. A shotgun *can* be used for close in defense as well as hunting. A 22 is good for small game and practicing as is a pellet gun. A semi 308 is more for engaging multiple targets at long range.

3. A bolt action rifle is generally more accurate than a given semiautomatic of the same caliber. This inherent advantage is strictly due to how the action works. In a semiautomatic, part of the gases are used to operate the bolt. Because it is strictly a mechanical operation, there are variations. There are ways to overcome this disadvantage, but they tend to quickly raise the cost of the gun.

4. Only have guns that fulfill a need. Like you, I looked at getting a semi 308. However, I can't justify buying one since I'm not seeking to engage multiple targets at long ranges. I do have a bolt action 308 which I consider to be my gun to get more guns. I have 2 ARs which I intend to use for closer in defense.

In the end, it boils down to your particular situation. If you intend to interdict targets at long range, it may be worth it to get a semi in 308. But for that amount of money (~$3000) in the gun and optic, I'd look to a bolt action 50 BMG. It'd run you about $500-$1000 more, but will give you considerable additional capabilities and range.

Like Sentry, I'm more of an additive guy.


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## bigg777 (Mar 18, 2013)

I'd pass on the trade since you already have the "reach out & touch someone" solution in the bolt action .308.

As was mentioned above, every gun you have should fill a specific roll. What roll do you have that the AR10/M1 would fill? If it is the roll of "I just want one," that is a fine roll if you can afford it.


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

You have two good reliable rifles in the same caliber plus ya got a reasonable supply a ammo. The 54r ain't no pooch. 

Yall got a 308 bolt action, which in my opinion is a good choice. Semi auto be fine, but, if the time comes when yall be usin these, your gonna wanna pick your shots, not see how much lead ya can throw down range. 

Can't tell ya bought yer choices, but listen ta what the folks on here tell ya. Then make a educated decision.


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## ras1219como (Jan 15, 2013)

I would not trade either of those guns in. If you absolutely must have a semi auto 308 then save up for it and then purchase it.



Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum. Please forgive typos. 

"I will fear no evil, for the valley is mine and so is the shadow." 

"Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked."--Psalms 82:4


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## gilacr (Dec 30, 2013)

Just my opinion but, I too have always regretted selling or trading a firearm. Also like many of the comments already made I love a good bolt 308 for long range but, have an AR platform in 5.56 as my standard defencive weapon. My 1911 is my, "Oh my God my rifle broke, run-away run-away" back-up.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

Kewl thread! I have two AR's now and I do dig the light weight and modular nature of the weapon system. However, I recently got to shoot and hike around with an M1A scout squad. Fantastic! Fall in love with iron sights all over again. The weight difference for a similar load out wasn't something I felt would be a hindrance to me, your mileage may vary. Anyway the M1 will be my next addition, and I would be perfectly comfortable trading my AR's for it.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

gilacr said:


> ... My 1911 is my, "Oh my God my rifle broke, run-away run-away" back-up.


:rofl: Awesome description of an appropriate role for a handgun. Personally if I really have to use a firearm against predators of any stripe, I would rather be a couple hundred yards away at least, with a gun appropriate for that range.


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## HamiltonFelix (Oct 11, 2011)

I believe in standardization as a principle, but as a gun enthusiast just can't be fanatical about it. If it's a good gun, with an effective round, you have a stock of ammo, and YOU like it, that's good. 

Yep, I like looking at the "real" guns, like M1A and FAL, and thinking "real" guns are .30 caliber (I like really big ones, too  ), but I'm realizing a couple of things: 

1. The little AR platform is ubiquitous and very handy. Which would you prefer to carry if you had to keep something with you all day, while doing various work? 

2. The inexpensive "odd" gun is not necessarily bad. Inherited Mom's cheap old slightly sporterized M1891 Argentine Mauser - so, lay in a stock of 7.65 Argentine (aka Belgian) ammo, put a form & trim die next to the loading dies so you can always make brass from .30-06, and you have a viable system. Inherited Dad's Model 71 Winchester - so lay in a stock of .348 for the only gun ever chambered for it, get dies and a mold to supplement your bullet stock and you have another viable system that will definitely slam a bear in the brush. 

Picked up an inexpensive SMLE - so lay in some .303 British and dies, and you have a working system. Grabbed a $50 Turkish Mauser years ago, and it shoots pretty straight - if you have some 8x57 you have a system, even if you never do get around to doing that "truck gun" customizing job you had in mind at the time.

Some of these independent "systems" may be good to trade to a trusted friend in an uncertain future. They are certainly functional. 

Try to have a standard "EDC after the Apocalypse" kind of rifle that is supported everywhere (today), but don't feel at all bad about the less common guns. And 7.62x54R is certainly a proven round. 

If you haven't guessed, I'm definitely an "additive" guy like Marcus and Sentry.


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## smaj100 (Oct 17, 2012)

I think i'm gonna sit on them for awhile longer. If the right M1 comes along I might make the trade for it. I do have the ability to reload everything I own. Since the vepr in 54r has become a little harder to find these days and everyone seems to have jumped on the 308 and other caliber mods, i'm gonna hang on to it.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

smaj100 said:


> I think i'm gonna sit on them for awhile longer. If the right M1 comes along I might make the trade for it. I do have the ability to reload everything I own. Since the vepr in 54r has become a little harder to find these days and everyone seems to have jumped on the 308 and other caliber mods, i'm gonna hang on to it.


Back in my High School days I sold off my firearms to pay for car repairs. The 3rd accident in one year. Been kicking myself in the posterior (excuse my french Ladies) ever since.

Firearms are an investment (IMHO). Never sell or never trade, UNLESS, you can turn a handsome profit and use the profit to purchase a replacement or trade up to a better grade.

Back to the OP question.

If you had 6 or more rifles then trading 2 for one wouldn't such a big deal (again IMHO). Trading the only two you have for one just doesn't seem right to me.


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## smaj100 (Oct 17, 2012)

Lazy, I agree 100%......

I have a few long guns. These 2 are safe queens, only fired 2x each.

M4 5.56, M4 300blk, 308 bolt, 22, m1 .30 carb. I was of the mindset of trying to offload the two oddball russian guns for a ar10 or m1a1. I have a few in .30 cal family and as i mentioned earlier I can and do reload for all my guns. The supplies for the 54r are available just not as cheap as the 30 stuff. 

I do think i'll hold them though till the right gun comes along. A nice m1a1 that tickles my fancy.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

smaj100 said:


> ...A nice m1a1 that tickles my fancy.


A Springfield? :thumbraise::thumbraise::thumbraise:


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## smaj100 (Oct 17, 2012)

yes sir a Springfield or Fulton Armory. I've not seen or read anything negative about either. Perhaps the proper term is M14, since many folks consider the M1 to be either the garand or carbine.


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## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

I have both a carbine and a Garand (30 06) as my rifles. My next purchase was going to be the M14 but finances now make that a not happening thing :-{(

The carbine is a great little carry all day straight shooter, for closer distances. If I shoot on a windy day or longer distances than 100 yds, my accuracy goes out the window. It is accurate any day from my back porch to the woods line so fulfills a purpose.

The Garand is a piece of work. For me, there was a reason it was in production and USED for so long. It is heavy at 8.4 pounds though and ammo is heavy also. Not something I would choose to lug around all day unless my life depended on it. Once you take the time to get the iron sights adjusted to your eye, it is as accurate as can be. The 30 06 round packs a wallop and the fact that tracers are still readily available is a plus too. :-}) Although last I checked they were a buck a piece. It is accurate any day from my back porch to as far as I can see into the woods so fulfills a purpose.

I have pistols also but for home protection, a Remington 870 Tactical. Basic black, 18" barrel, no choke. I want something that is not pin point accurate. I want a weapon that will hit something 'in that general direction' with a wallop and not go through too many walls if I miss.


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## smaj100 (Oct 17, 2012)

Woody do you reload? I have found some sabot sleeves that can be inserted into any 30cal cartridge and holds 22cal bullets. I regularly drive 55-69 grain 22 fmj & hp's out of my carbine out to 200 yrds with no effort.

http://www.eabco.com/Reports/report04.html


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## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

No, I don't reload. I never heard of these sleeves either, do they enlarge the 22 cal to fit the barrel?


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## smaj100 (Oct 17, 2012)

They are a small plastic sleeve the fits into the neck of the case and seats the bullet. Very similar to sabot rounds in tanks, or muzzleloaders. Remington made some many years ago in 30-30 haven't seen them in years though.

I attached a pic of the sabot sleeve with a 22cal rnd seated.


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## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

Sorry to go OT and seem like the moron I usually am.

I see where that makes the initial chambering of the round fit, but isn't an undersized projectile going down the rifled barrel of the weapon? In my limited knowledge of ballistics, I would think that would make accuracy a thing in question. You would have the initial power of the shell, but blow-by around the undersized projectile going down the barrel and a certain amount of 'wobble' due to the undersized projectile. Leaving the barrel with the projectile at one side of the barrel or the other wouldn't that toss long term accuracy out the window?

If not, it would follow that I could put a 20 gauge or a 410 shell in a 12 gauge , with a proper sized spacer/sabot, and it would also be accurate.


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## smaj100 (Oct 17, 2012)

The plastic sleeve the surrounds the 22 round, is fired down the barrel at the same time. Upon exit from the barrel the sabot sleeve falls off the round and leaves the 22 rnd to travel to the target. It essentially lets the bullet leave the barrel with no rifling marks on it, as the sabot sleeve takes the markings and imparts the twisting to the bullet.


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## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

Thank you Buddy!!!


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

The principle is the same as an APDS (Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot) anti-tank round. When the sabot (French for wooden shoe) comes out of the barrel and starts to slow down, part of its energy is transferred to the projectile which then goes faster than it normally would go. In the case of this particular sabot, I don't know if the design causes the 22 round to accelerate.
Here is a video of an anti-tank round showing the sabot falling off.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

The extra speed AFAIK, is primarily a result of the simple fact that the bullet/sabot combination is *much* lighter than a conventional bullet of the same diameter. Yet, once the sabot is dropped you can still have good/great SD and ballistics.


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## Moby76065 (Jul 31, 2012)

I'm in the "add not subtract" crowd but also only purchase firearms for purpose. I have an Armalite AR 10 in .308 as the AR15 is not always good for hog hunting. 
So it's duel purpose. hunting and intermediate & longer range engagements. The down side is unlike an AR15 at 3-500 yards the .308 will go right through most things you shoot. I admit it is a bit heavier. But I'm a larger guy so it's not too bad. Hike 3 miles with it and you'll wish it was an AR15. My three long guns are a Rugar 10/22, Remington 870, AR10. I feel I've got all covered with those. 
I highly recommend Armalite. they are seriously built and it's a tack driver. I can hit a clay pigeon (4.3 inches) at 300 yards. That's a head shot on any larger game. And at 300 yards if your not making a ruckus you're outside most prey's zone of concern.


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

cowboyhermit said:


> The extra speed AFAIK, is primarily a result of the simple fact that the bullet/sabot combination is *much* lighter than a conventional bullet of the same diameter. Yet, once the sabot is dropped you can still have good/great SD and ballistics.


I agree about the lighter bullet/sabot causing more initial velocity as long as the powder charge remains constant.

But somewhere back in the foggy recesses of my now befuddled mind, I recall _something_ about the Law of Conservation of Momentum causing the APFSDS dart to accelerate as it is dropping the sabot. I can see the possibility just as the dart is leaving the barrel and the sabots start to fall off. From what I recall it wasn't a big boost in velocity since the sabots tend to be fairly light, but it was measurable. It may have to do with the long penetrator dart still abutting the back piece in the barrel as the sabots start to shed.

But, I don't think the sub-caliber 30 cal rounds would do the same since the sabot is designed differently and for a different purpose. If you notice the dart in the video, it isn't spinning. The sabot on the 30 cal rounds is designed to impart spin and thus stability to the 22 bullet.


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## headhunter (Nov 21, 2008)

smaj100 said:


> They are a small plastic sleeve the fits into the neck of the case and seats the bullet. Very similar to sabot rounds in tanks, or muzzleloaders. Remington made some many years ago in 30-30 haven't seen them in years though.
> 
> I attached a pic of the sabot sleeve with a 22cal rnd seated.


If my rememberer is working they were called Remington "Accelerator" cartridges and were available in .30-30, .308,and .30-06 and there were plans to increase the offerings. They were to make a varmit rifle out of your favorite deer rifle. The accuracy was fair and velocity impressive. As pointer out earlier, the bullet had no rifling marks. So the question is was it the market place that killed them off or was it the long nose of Washington?


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## smaj100 (Oct 17, 2012)

I don't really think it was the long nose of Washington that did them in. If that were the case they would have made them illegal all the way around to include the reloading aspect of it. They are still popular in bp guns, for shooting smaller 45cal projectiles from your 50 muzzle loader.


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## smaj100 (Oct 17, 2012)

tentative deal is made, m1a scout squad with a bunch of mags, scope mount and ammo for the vepr its accy and most of the ammo. Guy wasnt interested in the mn 91/30, so she'll sit in the safe a little longer. I cant wait to test drive the m1a.


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