# measles, those pesky little red dots



## stayingthegame (Mar 22, 2011)

How many of you here have given your kids their vaccines? of those who have not, how many are considering giving them because of the measles outbreak? I gave my kids their shot but told the doctor that I wanted to space them out at least a month to six weeks apart. he agreed and we held to that for both my kids.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

Required before they could attend school.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

We spaced out Roo's vaccines as well. Her doctor used the same spacing plan for her own children so she was totally understanding. 

This year Roo only needed the flu shot and we have a new pediatrician so spacing vaccines was not necessary. The new doctor has nothing against spacing them she is just pushy about making sure the kids get them. She does offer us a choice on the types of vaccines so we can avoid types or manufactures we don't like.

BTW when it comes to the MMR vaccine it doesn't always 'take' as we think vaccines should. About 25% of all vaccinated with the MMR vaccine do not build up an immunity as they should. This means they can still contract Measles, Mumps or Rubella. This is part of the problem with the Disneyland Outbreak.

And we were at Disneyland with Roo during the time Patient Zero was there and contagious. No one in our party is sick.


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## squerly (Aug 17, 2012)

Grimm said:


> BTW when it comes to the MMR vaccine it doesn't always 'take' as we think vaccines should. About 25% of all vaccinated with the MMR vaccine do not build up an immunity as they should. This means they can still contract Measles, Mumps or Rubella. This is part of the problem with the Disneyland Outbreak.


I know very little about vaccines, is the quoted 25% failure rate an advertised norm or is this a "Grimm" observation? :dunno:


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

squerly said:


> I know very little about vaccines, is the quoted 25% failure rate an advertised norm or is this a "Grimm" observation? :dunno:


I read that in a local OC paper I picked up when I was visiting my folks earlier this week. I have since looked up the same article on their website and the number has been 'corrected by advisement of the CDC'. The 'corrected' rate is 90+% develop the immunity to all three diseases after receiving the second round of the MMR vaccine.


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## hashbrown (Sep 2, 2013)

Is this outbreak German measles?


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## squerly (Aug 17, 2012)

Grimm said:


> I have since looked up the same article on their website and the number has been 'corrected by advisement of the CDC'. The 'corrected' rate is 90+% develop the immunity to all three diseases after receiving the second round of the MMR vaccine.


I was raised by my Grandma and Grandpa, neither of who believed in vaccinations. It was tough getting into school sometimes but Grandpa pointed out that we still had freedom of choice and we were going to exercise that freedom. So I never had any of the normal vaccinations while growing up.

And because of this upbringing I a little cautious when it comes to injecting a substance into my body (or that of my children) that has so many possible side effects. And it does nothing to calm my concerns when the CDC says it's 90+% successful.

But I guess they should know, they've been 100% successful with Ebola.


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## squerly (Aug 17, 2012)

squerly said:


> But I guess they should know, they've been 100% successful with Ebola.


I'm sorry, I just reread this and I didn't mean it to sound so condescending. What I meant was I have little faith in what the CDC tells me. It's a government agency and if they're not lying to us then it the first (and only) government agency that isn't.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

hashbrown said:


> Is this outbreak German measles?


It has not been stated as such. If German measles are covered by the MMR vaccine then I guess it doesn't matter much.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

squerly said:


> I'm sorry, I just reread this and I didn't mean it to sound so condescending. What I meant was I have little faith in what the CDC tells me. It's a government agency and if they're not lying to us then it the first (and only) government agency that isn't.


No worries.


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## Country Living (Dec 15, 2009)

We were raised in a time where if someone had the measles, mumps, chickenpox, whatever.... we were sent to play with them. And that's how we got "vaccinated". For either measles or mumps my mother had it in her mind I needed to be in a dark room so I wouldn't go blind. I was about five years old and she set me up in her bed with lots of pillows, the heavy drapes drawn, and gave me crayons and a coloring book so I would have something to do. Ever try to color in a dark room???? This was long before we even had a TV in the house.

We got Hep A (both shots) as well as Yellow Fever vaccinations a few years ago when we traveled to South America. We've been tested for Hep C since there was a push for baby boomers to have the test. We get Tetanus and Diphtheria and flu and pneumonia and shingles and whatever vaccinations it takes to keep us healthy. My better half is having the measles antibody test in a few weeks when we make the next trek to the city - came from a large family and it was just too confusing to keep track of who had what so the best that can be done in this outbreak is to check for antibodies. 

When Young Country was tot there was not any hesitation at all to make sure she had all her vaccinations. She's made sure her young children have been vaccinated and will not let them play with unvaccinated kids because her four year old is a Type 1 diabetic.

Is anything known about Patient Zero?


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## hashbrown (Sep 2, 2013)

Country Living said:


> We were raised in a time where if someone had the measles, mumps, chickenpox, whatever.... we were sent to play with them. And that's how we got "vaccinated". For either measles or mumps my mother had it in her mind I needed to be in a dark room so I wouldn't go blind. I was about five years old and she set me up in her bed with lots of pillows, the heavy drapes drawn, and gave me crayons and a coloring book so I would have something to do. Ever try to color in a dark room???? This was long before we even had a TV in the house.
> 
> We got Hep A (both shots) as well as Yellow Fever vaccinations a few years ago when we traveled to South America. We've been tested for Hep C since there was a push for baby boomers to have the test. We get Tetanus and Diphtheria and flu and pneumonia and shingles and whatever vaccinations it takes to keep us healthy. My better half is having the measles antibody test in a few weeks when we make the next trek to the city - came from a large family and it was just too confusing to keep track of who had what so the best that can be done in this outbreak is to check for antibodies.
> 
> ...


My mother made me wear sunglasses in a dark room


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## stayingthegame (Mar 22, 2011)

this is the measles, not the german measles. measles can cause deafness and blindness while german measles is worse for women who are in their first trimester as it can cause many birth defects.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Country Living said:


> Is anything known about Patient Zero?


There are lots of rumors about Patient Zero going around.

Some say it is an illegal immigrant that was visiting Disneyland.

Or a visitor on a vacation visa from an area that still has high measles outbreaks.

Some think it is a person who HAS previously been vaccinated for MMR.

Others are claiming it is an un-vaccinated 20 something year old woman.

They know who Patient Zero is and refuse to release any information about them or their status.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

Country Living said:


> We were raised in a time where if someone had the measles, mumps, chickenpox, whatever.... we were sent to play with them. And that's how we got "vaccinated".


I can see the reasoning if you were intentionally exposed to chicken pox since it vaccinated you for smallpox. I don't understand the reasoning behind intentionally giving someone measles or mumps. Do they provide antibodies for a more dangerous disease?


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

Grimm said:


> They know who Patient Zero is and refuse to release any information about them or their status.


Have they confirmed that the identity of P-0 is known or is that your opinion?


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

labotomi said:


> Have they confirmed that the identity of P-0 is known or is that your opinion?


It was announced that they know who Patient Zero is through the news outlets. K heard it via the radio the other day on his way home from work. I read it in the newspaper last week.


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## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

My question is, what are we not supposed to be paying attention to while we're paying attention to the measles?


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

lazydaisy67 said:


> My question is, what are we not supposed to be paying attention to while we're paying attention to the measles?


Hahaha!!

There it is.....

Maybe Russia invaded Ukraine again. Or ISIS is killing Americans....


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## Country Living (Dec 15, 2009)

labotomi said:


> I can see the reasoning if you were intentionally exposed to chicken pox since it vaccinated you for smallpox. I don't understand the reasoning behind intentionally giving someone measles or mumps. Do they provide antibodies for a more dangerous disease?


We also got the smallpox vaccination as well as the "sugar cube" polio vaccination.

It was a different time back then. Parents knew their kids would eventually get measles, mumps, etc. so they simply controlled the 'when' not the 'if'. Don't get me wrong, the doctor would check in to confirm the disease and leave instructions about what to do if there were complications so we weren't completely on our own for recovery.

When we were kids, our natural immunity levels were much better than those of the children today. We played outside a lot and, more often than not, barefoot. We had stings, scratches, scrapes, bumps, and bruises that may have gotten a 'kiss to make it better' depending on your age. Broken bones did mean a trip to the doctor. Faces and hands were washed before a meal, other than that the nightly bath took off the day's grime.

Where I'm going with this is we were not raised in a sterile environment so possibly our immunity minimized the complications of most childhood diseases. I don't know.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

WOW! Stay off the subway in New York:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tist-says-won-t-die-lick-one-metal-poles.html

Terrifying microbe map of New York's subway system reveals superbugs, anthrax and bubonic plague


Dr Chris Mason and his colleagues swabbed subway system for 18 months
Scientists mapped 466 stations and found 15,000 types of microbes
Germs associated with bubonic plague and dysentery found at 3 stations 
Nearly half of DNA collected did not match any known organisms

Scientists said that most of the harmful bacteria are found in low quantities and good or neutral bacteria may be out-competing them.

ILLNESSES ON THE NYC SUBWAY

Bubonic plague found at 3 stations 
Dysentery 3 stations
E. Coli 56 stations
Food poisoning 215 stations
Meningitis 9 stations
Strep infections 66 stations 
Tetanus 9 stations

City dwellers' immune systems are also equipped to handle all the microbes thrown at them during the typical day.

'You wouldn't want to lick all the poles, even though you'd probably be fine,' Dr Mason said.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Country Living said:


> When we were kids, our natural immunity levels were much better than those of the children today. We played outside a lot and, more often than not, barefoot. We had stings, scratches, scrapes, .... Faces and hands were washed before a meal, other than that the nightly bath took off the day's grime.
> 
> Where I'm going with this is we were not raised in a sterile environment so possibly our immunity minimized the complications of most childhood diseases. I don't know.


No, this is absolutely correct. City kids that never get dirty are the ones that seem to me are always sickest!

I have had tetanus and one MMR shots in my life, but nothing recently. I've never been really, truly sick. Being exposed to stuff as a kid definitely strengthens you.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

LincTex said:


> No, this is absolutely correct. City kids that never get dirty are the ones that seem to me are always sickest!


I've heard people claim this but never have I seen any data which backs it up.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

labotomi said:


> I've heard people claim this but never have I seen any data which backs it up.


My personal life experiences and observations.... 
which is good enough data for me.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

labotomi said:


> I've heard people claim this but never have I seen any data which backs it up.


Here you go.
*
The hygiene hypothesis: How being too clean might be making us sick*
http://www.vox.com/2014/6/25/5837892/is-being-too-clean-making-us-sick



> Over the past few decades, doctors have arrived at a counter intuitive hypothesis about our modern, ultra-sanitized world. Too much cleanliness may be causing us to develop allergies, asthma, inflammatory bowel diseases, and other autoimmune disorders.
> 
> The idea is that for many children in the wealthy world, a lack of exposure to bacteria, viruses, and allergens prevents the normal development of the immune system, ultimately increasing the chance of disorders within this system down the road. This is called the hygiene hypothesis.
> 
> ...


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

Country Living said:


> ...When we were kids, our natural immunity levels were much better than those of the children today. We played outside a lot and, more often than not, barefoot. We had stings, scratches, scrapes, bumps, and bruises that may have gotten a 'kiss to make it better' depending on your age. Broken bones did mean a trip to the doctor. Faces and hands were washed before a meal, other than that the nightly bath took off the day's grime.
> 
> Where I'm going with this is we were not raised in a sterile environment so possibly our immunity minimized the complications of most childhood diseases. I don't know.


AND don't forget, we drank water from a GARDEN HOSE!


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

TheLazyL said:


> AND don't forget, we drank water from a GARDEN HOSE!


That had been sitting in the dirt baking in the sun.

I miss this way of life. Now a days you get in trouble for telling your kids to get a drink from the hose like our parents did.

And heaven forbid we use to eat fruit fresh from the trees without 'washing' them.


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## hashbrown (Sep 2, 2013)

I think it's pretty cool how we cured Ebola with Measles.


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## Zanazaz (Feb 14, 2012)

LincTex said:


> WOW! Stay off the subway in New York:
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tist-says-won-t-die-lick-one-metal-poles.html
> 
> ...


I read another article talking about the same study. The unidentified DNA they found is fascinating! So many things we still don't know about our world, and maybe will never know. Which in some ways might be a good thing.


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## Zanazaz (Feb 14, 2012)

Country Living said:


> We were raised in a time where if someone had the measles, mumps, chickenpox, whatever.... we were sent to play with them. And that's how we got "vaccinated". For either measles or mumps my mother had it in her mind I needed to be in a dark room so I wouldn't go blind. I was about five years old and she set me up in her bed with lots of pillows, the heavy drapes drawn, and gave me crayons and a coloring book so I would have something to do. Ever try to color in a dark room???? This was long before we even had a TV in the house.
> 
> We got Hep A (both shots) as well as Yellow Fever vaccinations a few years ago when we traveled to South America. We've been tested for Hep C since there was a push for baby boomers to have the test. We get Tetanus and Diphtheria and flu and pneumonia and shingles and whatever vaccinations it takes to keep us healthy. My better half is having the measles antibody test in a few weeks when we make the next trek to the city - came from a large family and it was just too confusing to keep track of who had what so the best that can be done in this outbreak is to check for antibodies.
> 
> ...


I've heard and read about people doing this, but I wonder if parents would still have done it if they knew there was a chance their children could die? Complications from measles can be life threatening.

I recently read that even with two applications of the MMR vaccine there is still a chance it won't "take". I read that it's something like 1%. So while I believe in freedom of choice, if you choose not to get your kid vaccinated and they get measles you are putting other people at risk.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

Zanazaz said:


> I recently read that even with two applications of the MMR vaccine there is still a chance it won't "take". I read that it's something like 1%. So while I believe in freedom of choice, if you choose not to get your kid vaccinated and they get measles you are putting other people at risk.


Vaccines never completely eliminate risk, only complete isolation does that. By choosing to be around other people, you choose to be exposed to their cooties. There are antibody tests that can be done to see if immunity has been achieved.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

stayingthegame said:


> How many of you here have given your kids their vaccines? of those who have not, how many are considering giving them because of the measles outbreak? I gave my kids their shot but told the doctor that I wanted to space them out at least a month to six weeks apart. he agreed and we held to that for both my kids.


We delay some vaccines, eliminate others, & the ones we do get are spaced out. Our decision was researched & well informed so no, nothing has changed.


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## gardenshepherd (Dec 11, 2013)

We had Measles here last winter, shut down lots of schools(2/3s of the school and teachers had them). All winter sports played against these school's were cancelled, unless you played their top team, it seems these kids couldn't get the measles, so they couldn't spread it like their class mates. :nuts: Or the parents that let their kids go to town, when they couldn't go to school, stupid, the thing with Measles, is you don't know you are sick, till you have shared it around.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

*I had the measles*

I remember having the measles when I was a small child. I have a memory of waking up and walking out the door of my dark bedroom into the kitchen which was bright to me. I am not sure how old I was, but it was before we had running water in our house.

I remember my mom being very protective about me being sick. I do not remember if my 3 siblings had the measles or not. Being in the dark room is the part that I remember the most.

This had to be before there were inoculations against measles. My mom was an R.N. in our small community and she was all about us getting our shots. I remember getting the first polio vaccinations on sugar cubes. They were free, and we had to go to the local auditorium with all the other people in the community. Mom's brother had polio, and could not join the service in WW II because of it.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Zanazaz said:


> I've heard and read about people doing this, but I wonder if parents would still have done it if they knew there was a chance their children could die? Complications from measles can be life threatening.
> 
> I recently read that even with two applications of the MMR vaccine there is still a chance it won't "take". I read that it's something like 1%. So while I believe in freedom of choice, *if you choose not to get your kid vaccinated and they get measles you are putting other people at risk.*


The people put at risk are those who chose not to vaccinate. That is the risk they take by not vaccinating. They know this and they accept this risk.

Those that are vaccinated and still catch the 'bug' take that assumed risk when they agree to the vaccine. If they do not understand that there is a chance of still getting sick even with the vaccine then they are total idiots that signed the forms without reading them. They should be taken out back and beaten with a hose.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

I recommend that if you have not been vaccinated get the antibodies blood test done. There many not be a need for the vaccine.

When Roo was scheduled for the chicken pox vaccine her doctor asked if K and I had gotten the virus as kids. I got it twice and said as much. K said no. He never got sick even when he was taken to every pox party in his neighborhood as a kid. 

Roo's doctor ordered the antibodies blood test and put Roo's vaccine on hold til after K got the test results. K had antibodies for the chicken pox so Roo got the vaccine the following month.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

Grimm said:


> Here you go.
> *
> The hygiene hypothesis: How being too clean might be making us sick*
> http://www.vox.com/2014/6/25/5837892/is-being-too-clean-making-us-sick


Not quite what I'm looking for but thanks for the article.


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## txcatlady (Sep 26, 2013)

I made sure my girls all had their shots. The school has provided my hep a and b shots. I have had rabies series and got my shingles shot. I also get a flu shot every year. My concern over not vaccinating your child is for the children with compromised bodies that can't fight off an exposure to any of these illnesses. We see more and more children who are fighting hard with a life threatening deasease and don't need extra health problems. My nephew spent the weekend with my 84 year old mom and brought his four children under 6. The 6 year old had thrown up the night before. My mom ended up with diarrea for four days and couldn't eat all that time. I think people need to be proactive with their health and responsible as well as being responsible for others around them. These children undergoing chemo need to fight enough without being exposed unnecessarily to big, bad germs that could have been avoided. We have hand sanitizer everywhere at school and soap in restrooms. Most children will go for sanitizer over soap. That is another issue! I use soap and water. 4 of my girls had chicken pox at the same time. Fifth girl I purposely exposed at one year of age to get it over with. My 14 grands are getting their shots on schedule. Of course we are rural so majority of kids spend time outside. Not like we did growing up, but they get recess outside and sometimes PE outside. Rant over


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## RevWC (Mar 28, 2011)

FYI



> In consequence of our special newsletter on the referendum concerning the Pandemic Act we received numerous positive comments and further questions. Clearly, the issue is of high interest.
> 
> It is also reasonable for concerned parents to think of having their children vaccinated. We are thus frequently asked how to vaccinate and avoid adverse side effects at the same time:
> 
> ...


http://www.marioninstitute.org/blog...-vaccination?gclid=COad4eug0MMCFURo7Aod-TgAVg


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

RevWC said:


> FYI
> 
> http://www.marioninstitute.org/blog...-vaccination?gclid=COad4eug0MMCFURo7Aod-TgAVg


Okay.

I need to jump on my 'mommy soap box'.

When you receive a vaccine you are given a FACT SHEET to read BEFORE the vaccine is administered. You are also required to sign a waiver saying you read the fact sheet and accept all risk should there be complications from the vaccine. Once these 2 things are done you have the right to say yes or no to the vaccine.

Also, the majority of vaccines that contain mercury are live virus injectables. It is used as a preservative in the vaccine. Most live virus vaccines can be switched out for inert or dead virus vaccines. Ask your doctor.

Use your brains folks. Do your OWN research before doing something. There are lots of books about delaying and not vaccinating. You can get most used from Amazon for a few dollars. (I'll post titles once I find our copies.)


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

I want to toss something out there for consideration.

We were at Disneyland on December 18 and 19th and a third trip on January 1. This is during the time that Patient Zero was said to be visiting the resort.

While we were enjoying our trip I noticed something that bothered me to no end. Lots of pregnant women and families with _NEWBORN_ infants. The last time I went to Disneyland before this trip was before I got pregnant (or knew I was pregnant). I waited until Roo was old enough to enjoy the resort before we went back. She is 3 years old! I haven't been to the park in over 4 years.

I get that some people don't want to miss the family vacation to a densely visited theme park because they have a baby or are pregnant BUT *What... The... F***!?!*

This whole BS about vaccinating or not vaccinating is because no one wants to take responsibility for the choices they make. Too many people are being stupid on all sides and it is affecting the freedoms we all should cherish.

We have the right to vaccinate or not to vaccinate as we see fit. There are risks with both and we accept the risks when we make our choices. Those that refuse to accept the risks associated with their decisions are why this once great nation is crumbling around us. The desires of the few should not out weight the rights of the many.

(The argument about compromised immune patients does not apply since that is still their responsibility to look after their own health and safety. Why to they get the privilege to use this infirmity to FORCE vaccines on the majority!? But lets not go down this road.)


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## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

So how many of the people in this current outbreak have died?


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

lazydaisy67 said:


> So how many of the people in this current outbreak have died?


None.

At least none that are being reported by the MSM.


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## Zanazaz (Feb 14, 2012)

Grimm said:


> The people put at risk are those who chose not to vaccinate. That is the risk they take by not vaccinating. They know this and they accept this risk.
> 
> Those that are vaccinated and still catch the 'bug' take that assumed risk when they agree to the vaccine. If they do not understand that there is a chance of still getting sick even with the vaccine then they are total idiots that signed the forms without reading them. They should be taken out back and beaten with a hose.


If your going to quote my post DO NOT BOLD FACE anything. If I had wanted it bold faced I would have done it myself.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Zanazaz said:


> If your going to quote my post *DO NOT BOLD FACE* anything. If I had wanted it bold faced I would have done it myself.


I bold faced THAT sentence to indicate I was responding to that part of the quote. I do not cut up the quote to show I was not taking THAT sentence out of context.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do about my quoting and responding to you. Maybe the anger over such a small and trivial thing is because you know I am right in my response.


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## gabbyj310 (Oct 22, 2012)

How about this one. Because of MY job,I am told what I MUST take!If I refuse I don't get the job.That includes flu shots,anthrax shots smallpoxs(again) and others.So much for freedom!


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

What I don't get is Why do we as a nation not protect its citizens by requiring immagrants (you know the legal ones wheather it be for work or play) get these vaccines before they enter our country!?

K's dad worked for United Airlines before he passed. He did hub audits overseas. Every few years (unless required) he had to update his vaccines before he started his rounds of the United Airlines hubs in Asia and the South Pacific. The vaccines were required by the countries he was visiting before he could enter. 

If other countries can require us to get vaccines to visit why can't we!?!


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## squerly (Aug 17, 2012)

Grimm said:


> What I don't get is Why do we as a nation not protect its citizens by requiring immagrants (you know the legal ones wheather it be for work or play) get these vaccines before they enter our country!?


You mean to vaccinate him several months before he gets here? Is that correct? Otherwise all you're doing is keeping him from getting the virus _after _he gets here.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

squerly said:


> You mean to vaccinate him several months before he gets here? Is that correct? Otherwise all you're doing is keeping him from getting the virus _after _he gets here.


Yes, before.


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## drfacefixer (Mar 8, 2013)

Grimm, 
I don't know what your talking about. 
During an immigration medical exam, you must either have sufficient proof of vaccinations or you all be given them at that time. Currently proof of the following is the legal requirement for immigration into the U.S. They are also screened for various communicable disease. It is quite the farce that illegal immigrants are bringing most of these diseases. Most come from legal travels and activities of international commerce. 

Mumps
Measles
Rubella
Polio
Tetanus and diphtheria
Pertussis
Haemophilus influenzae type B (Hib)
Hepatitis A
Hepatitis B
Rotavirus
Meningococcal disease
Varicella
Pneumococcal disease
Seasonal influenza


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

drfacefixer said:


> Grimm,
> I don't know what your talking about.
> During an immigration medical exam, you must either have sufficient proof of vaccinations or you all be given them at that time. Currently proof of the following is the legal requirement for immigration into the U.S. They are also screened for various communicable disease. It is quite the farce that illegal immigrants are bringing most of these diseases. Most come from legal travels and activities of international commerce.
> 
> ...


Really? How many of the thousands of illegals who recently came from Central America were vaccinated before the US Gov. shipped them all over the US to relocate them? How would you know? I don't buy the BS the MSM feeds us. I don't trust them. If you do then you are very foolish.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

drfacefixer said:


> Grimm,
> I don't know what your talking about.
> During an immigration medical exam, you must either have sufficient proof of vaccinations or you all be given them at that time. Currently proof of the following is the legal requirement for immigration into the U.S. They are also screened for various communicable disease. It is quite the farce that illegal immigrants are bringing most of these diseases. Most come from legal travels and activities of international commerce.
> 
> ...


So how are some of these diseases coming into the country? Not all of them are coming in with illegals. If ebola can come in why can't these?!


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

I have an Autistic child in my home. She was on track as a normal child for the first 12 to 18 months of her life. She knew what her hands were. She knew what her feet were. She could point to her nose, She could point to her hair. We did not have much money at the time and she was taken to the county health dept. for her MMR shots. Within 2 weeks she no longer could point to her nose when asked. She could no longer point to her feet when asked. She did not learn to speak until she was almost 3 years old and then she only learned because we spent endless hours upon hours working with her with 3 simple tasks. Open and Closed, On and Off, and In and Out. Once she finally "got" this after many many weeks of working with her it was like a light came on. She babbled, she could not go to sleep at night unless you wrapped her tightly in a blanket or kind of squished her under a pillow. She needed special help from occupational therapists and speech therapists to cope with daily life and try to make words. When she was 4 we tried to enroll her in public school. They told us she had to know and understand 100 words and told me that she did not know them. I argued and went home and began writing down words that I knew that she understood but that they could not understand in her speech. I had a list of 300 words by the Monday following that meeting. I took her back and demanded that they sit with her and I as we worked through every word on that list. She was then enrolled in a special needs class. Today she is enrolled in regular classes. Most people don't notice her handicap unless they spend some time with her. She will flap her hands and make funny sounds when she is excited. She doesn't have friends in the neighborhood. The kids across the street never come over and ask for her to come play with them. They see that she is different. 
So, I will say without a doubt that the immunizations that she got from the county that day caused her issues.
You can believe the Gov. when they say that there is no connection between Autism and the MMR shot but I know better. What do you expect them to say? It was their medication that they doled out to millions of children and they would be held responsible if the truth was presented to the public. Do I trust them now to tell us the truth? HELL NO. Do I believe most of what they tell us these days? HELL NO. The MSM is used as a tool against the thinking people of the US. We still have to fight for her to get help in school. Schools today will try hard to not admit to a problem she might be having because if they do then they will have to address it. This child will probably become a self sufficient adult in society. Is that due to anything the Gov has done for her? HELL NO! If she becomes a self sufficient member of society it is because of her family who have given her unlimited time and work to help her.
Do I believe this measles epidemic that was cured in the past is not the fault of the Gov and illegal invaders who are ruining this great country? HELL NO!
Autism used to only affect 1 in 10,000 children 15 years ago. Now according to the cdc it affects 1 in 50.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

LastOutlaw said:


> I have an Autistic child in my home. She was on track as a normal child for the first 12 to 18 months of her life. She knew what her hands were. She knew what her feet were. She could point to her nose, She could point to her hair. We did not have much money at the time and she was taken to the county health dept. for her MMR shots. Within 2 weeks she no longer could point to her nose when asked. She could no longer point to her feet when asked. She did not learn to speak until she was almost 3 years old and then she only learned because we spent endless hours upon hours working with her with 3 simple tasks. Open and Closed, On and Off, and In and Out. Once she finally "got" this after many many weeks of working with her it was like a light came on. She babbled, she could not go to sleep at night unless you wrapped her tightly in a blanket or kind of squished her under a pillow. She needed special help from occupational therapists and speech therapists to cope with daily life and try to make words. When she was 4 we tried to enroll her in public school. They told us she had to know and understand 100 words and told me that she did not know them. I argued and went home and began writing down words that I knew that she understood but that they could not understand in her speech. I had a list of 300 words by the Monday following that meeting. I took her back and demanded that they sit with her and I as we worked through every word on that list. She was then enrolled in a special needs class. Today she is enrolled in regular classes. Most people don't notice her handicap unless they spend some time with her. She will flap her hands and make funny sounds when she is excited. She doesn't have friends in the neighborhood. The kids across the street never come over and ask for her to come play with them. They see that she is different.
> So, I will say without a doubt that the immunizations that she got from the county that day caused her issues.
> You can believe the Gov. when they say that there is no connection between Autism and the MMR shot but I know better. What do you expect them to say? It was their medication that they doled out to millions of children and they would be held responsible if the truth was presented to the public. Do I trust them now to tell us the truth? HELL NO. Do I believe most of what they tell us these days? HELL NO. The MSM is used as a tool against the thinking people of the US. We still have to fight for her to get help in school. Schools today will try hard to not admit to a problem she might be having because if they do then they will have to address it. This child will probably become a self sufficient adult in society. Is that due to anything the Gov has done for her? HELL NO! If she becomes a self sufficient member of society it is because of her family who have given her unlimited time and work to help her.
> Do I believe this measles epidemic that was cured in the past is not the fault of the Gov and illegal invaders who are ruining this great country? HELL NO!
> Autism used to only affect 1 in 10,000 children 15 years ago. Now according to the cdc it affects 1 in 50.


Or I can simply believe you wish to assign blame for something you don't understand. Vaccinations seem to be an easy target because of the erroneous study published years ago (debunked with the authors own admission of data manipulation)


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

labotomi said:


> Or I can simply believe you wish to assign blame for something you don't understand. Vaccinations seem to be an easy target because of the erroneous study published years ago (debunked with the authors own admission of data manipulation)


You can believe what ever you want. I really don't care. You weren't there. You don't know. I do know I have a little girl that was on track then wasn't within 2 weeks after her shot.

I get the sense you are all about vaccines no matter what others say or know.

I do know we had our suspicions long before any study was published.

Erroneous according to who? The people who produced the vaccines?

I would guess that you also believe that the FDA has peoples best interest in mind as well rather than big pharma.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

LastOutlaw said:


> I do know I have a little girl that was on track then wasn't within 2 weeks after her shot


It's not like throwing a switch. Autism isn't a sudden onset condition.



LastOutlaw said:


> I get the sense you are all about vaccines no matter what others say or know.


sounds like you are all about blaming vaccines no matter the truth.


LastOutlaw said:


> Erroneous according to who? The people who produced the vaccines?


Of course you would think that this is the only study that debunks the fraudulent doctor. No... There's enough impartial studies that any biased ones can be ignored completely.



LastOutlaw said:


> I would guess that you also believe that the FDA has peoples best interest in mind as well rather than big pharma.


Who said anything about the FDA? Oh... nevermind. Because you can't argue facts, you try to smear and discredit the person who disagrees. Besides, a great number of studies (showing no connection between autism and vaccinations) were conducted in other countries outside of the FDA jurisdiction.


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

labotomi, 
Do you have an autistic child? 
Were you there to see the changes happen in mine?
Are you a trained medical professional in the Autism spectrum?
Who do you think that you are to tell me what did and didn't happen with my child?
Who do you think you are to tell me what is possible with Autism spectrum?

I think we will just have to agree to disagree.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

LastOutlaw said:


> labotomi,
> Do you have an autistic child?


Are those with autistic children the only ones who can have an opinion about autism? If not then this question is irrelevant.


LastOutlaw said:


> Are you a trained medical professional in the Autism spectrum?


Are you? 


LastOutlaw said:


> Who do you think that you are to tell me what did and didn't happen with my child?


If you don't wish to have anyone disagree with your statements... write a blog. This is a forum for discussions so you can expect differing opinions. 


LastOutlaw said:


> I think we will just have to agree to disagree.


I think that was understood from the beginning.

No need to get cross because I don't subscribe to the same beliefs as you.


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## txcatlady (Sep 26, 2013)

I teach school and I thought most autism tendencies appeared at the age of three. Of course that depends on which spoke in the umbrella that is because there are so many different areas. My sped kids were identified and were in prek at the age of 4. granted it is a challenge, but so much can be done. i beg to differ that vaccinations cause that. bad timing. asbergers shows up later also. Some children are more severe and social skills are missing. hope things improve through early childhood intervention and special ed services. it can be intense and difficult to understand.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

txcatlady said:


> I teach school and I thought most autism tendencies appeared at the age of three. Of course that depends on which spoke in the umbrella that is because there are so many different areas. My sped kids were identified and were in prek at the age of 4. granted it is a challenge, but so much can be done. i beg to differ that vaccinations cause that. bad timing. asbergers shows up later also. Some children are more severe and social skills are missing. hope things improve through early childhood intervention and special ed services. it can be intense and difficult to understand.


The autistic boy my mom taught when she was teaching 5th grade was super smart. He was way ahead of his peers. My mom mentioned that his dad had similar tendencies and may have been autistic as well.

So there is a bizarre chance it may possibly be genetic?! Maybe?! Have they even thought of this or ruled it out yet?


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

txcatlady said:


> I teach school and I thought most autism tendencies appeared at the age of three. Of course that depends on which spoke in the umbrella that is because there are so many different areas. My sped kids were identified and were in prek at the age of 4. granted it is a challenge, but so much can be done. i beg to differ that vaccinations cause that. bad timing. asbergers shows up later also. Some children are more severe and social skills are missing. hope things improve through early childhood intervention and special ed services. it can be intense and difficult to understand.


Diagnosis could not take place until she was at least 3 but we could tell much earlier that there were issues which led us to feel sure she was either Autistic or had Aspergers such as problems with retention, grinding of teeth when excited etc. . During diagnosis we questioned whether it was Autism or Aspergers syndrome and were told that due to her speech difficulties that it was not Aspergers and we were told somewhat blatantly that she had moderate Autism. We were floored by the Drs. matter of fact diagnosis even though we knew inside. One always hopes they are wrong and I don't think we were really prepared to hear the diagnosis. You are right about things improving with early intervention. She is doing great today and has overcome some of the more severe effects of the issue but she will always be autistic, have sensory integration problems and have problems with social skills. 
I think early intervention makes it sound really easy while in fact it has taken years and years of very hard work to help her get to where she is today and it will continue. Treatment isn't a dash but more of an endurance race that never ends.


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## drfacefixer (Mar 8, 2013)

LastOutlaw said:


> Really? How many of the thousands of illegals who recently came from Central America were vaccinated before the US Gov. shipped them all over the US to relocate them? How would you know? I don't buy the BS the MSM feeds us. I don't trust them. If you do then you are very foolish.


Illegals by definition bypass the immigration policy, procedures, and medical examination. However, if you are talking about the unaccompanied children being held in detention centers until legal procedures could be addressed... Then they would fall under the authority of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) and the Public Health Service Act. Thus, the Secretary of Health and Human Services promulgates regulations outlining the requirements for the medical examination of aliens seeking admission into the United States. They would then receive similar documented medical care including mandatory vaccinations as many proceedings seeking asylum can take up to a year.

If you wonder why I know this, search the aforementioned laws and you will be more informed. Otherwise, I must claim OPSEC. I can't go into further detail. I assure you though, my knowledge is far beyond just reading msn or even fox for that matter.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

txcatlady said:


> I teach school and I thought most autism tendencies appeared at the age of three. Of course that depends on which spoke in the umbrella that is because there are so many different areas. My sped kids were identified and were in prek at the age of 4. granted it is a challenge, but so much can be done. i beg to differ that vaccinations cause that. bad timing. asbergers shows up later also.


Aspergers IS autism, that was just the term used for milder, higher functioning autism. Aspergers is on longer a diagnosis, it was removed altogether from the Diagnostic & Statistical Manual (DSM) not long ago.

The push now is to get potentially autistic kids identified in infancy. You can see autism in an infant, I have personally seen it in a two month old who was diagnosed a few years later. The biggies with autism are problems with talking, social interaction, & repetitive behaviors. Infants as young as six months old are typically doing a lot of babbling, interacting, & imitating of behavior. Those who are not have some sort of delay. Early intervention is key with autism, as with most things. I doubt many doctors would officially label a baby as autistic though. The key is whenever a baby/child is not developing typically or just doesn't seem right, don't wait, get him help now. Worry about labeling what's going on later. Infancy & early childhood are times of amazing learning, growth, & wiring of the brain. Delays during the early years can needlessly become lifelong challenges if not addressed.

Autism can be inherited. The current thought right now is that autism is caused by a combination of gene mutations and an environmental trigger like a chemical or virus. Someone with the gene mutation would have to come into contact with the environmental trigger to begin having symptoms of autism. Without contact with the environmental trigger the person with the gene mutation would have no symptoms. They are still figuring out the gene mutations & the environmental triggers but this would explain why a child with autism can be developing typically then all the sudden start showing signs of autism & lose the skills he once had.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

To get this thread back on track here is an article I found about the measles outbreak.

*Measles in Disneyland: Third MMR Shot and Vaccine Exemption Ban*
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2015/02/10/measles-disneyland.aspx



> There have been hundreds of media stories published in the U.S. and around the world since Jan. 14, 2015, the day after it was first reported that visitors to Disneyland got measles and presumably infected other people in California, Washington, Utah, and Colorado.
> 
> Like wildfire, the story spread globally even though there was - and still is - limited information about the 51 lab-confirmed cases of measles public health officials say are linked to the happiest place on earth.
> 
> ...


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## lovetogrow (Jan 25, 2011)

Grimm said:


> To get this thread back on track here is an article I found about the measles outbreak.
> 
> *Measles in Disneyland: Third MMR Shot and Vaccine Exemption Ban*
> http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2015/02/10/measles-disneyland.aspx


Informative and the host site for the article is impressive

Quote below from the article you posted should raise some real Alarm Bells:

*"Americans Have a Choice to Make

The battle lines are clearly drawn. Now Americans have a choice to make: will we stand up and fight to protect our human right to make voluntary decisions about which vaccines we buy and use, or will we permit liability free drug companies and government health officials to take that freedom from us?

Go to NVICAdvocacy.org and learn how you can take action to protect vaccine exemptions in your state. Learn more about the risks and complications of measles and measles vaccine on NVIC.org. And if you or your child has been vaccinated and the vaccine failed to protect you or caused harm, you can make a report to NVIC and share your experience with others on NVIC.org.

It's your health. Your family. Your choice."*


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

lovetogrow said:


> Informative and the host site for the article is impressive
> 
> Quote below from the article you posted should raise some real Alarm Bells:
> 
> ...


The first paragraph establishes the biased nature of the site and its certain that that there will be a significant slant to anything posted there.

I prefer to establish my opinions and not be "led" to them by anyone with an agenda (no matter to which side they belong)


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

labotomi said:


> The first paragraph establishes the biased nature of the site and its certain that that there will be a significant slant to anything posted there.
> 
> I prefer to establish my opinions and not be "led" to them by anyone with an agenda (no matter to which side they belong)


I cut the last 25% of the article out of my quote because it was how to fight back and writing to your government officials etc etc.


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## Wikkador (Oct 22, 2014)

I think Grimm makes several good points.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

labotomi said:


> The first paragraph establishes the biased nature of the site and its certain that that there will be a significant slant to anything posted there.
> 
> I prefer to establish my opinions and not be "led" to them by anyone with an agenda (no matter to which side they belong)


I don't really care if it ***IS*** a bit biased... 
There's enough bias coming from "the other side" that I welcome "a little balance"

Concerning how safe these vaccines (from companies with NO liability) really are ....
REMEMBER........ "We are FRIENDS with Oceana, 
we have ALWAYS been friends with Oceana!"


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

LincTex said:


> I don't really care if it ***IS*** a bit biased...
> There's enough bias coming from "the other side" that I welcome "a little balance"


Balance... That's how you refer to it? If you desire to be led by someone along a disingenuous path to come to "their" opinion then of course that's your right. I feel that if the facts are sound, there wouldn't be any need for cherry picking the points to make their claims. 
I expect this from some...


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

labotomi said:


> Balance... That's how you refer to it?


Yep.

"Half" each, of what I read. (caveat: tongue-in-cheek)

I'm using this Ben Franklin quote to justify it, too! 
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/333612-believe-none-of-what-you-hear-and-only-half-of



> "Believe none of what you hear, and only half of what you see." - Benjamin Franklin




Naturally, you don't know which half of what I read I believe, however...

News from the "Far Left" is skewed... so is news from the "Far Right"

So I only believe half of what I see from each...

Balance!


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

*"Canadian Flu Vaccine Paradox" Admits Vaccines Are Causing More Illness*
http://readynutrition.com/resources...s-vaccines-are-causing-more-illness_23012015/



> Canadian mainstream media have taken a bold new step - admitting the problem that frequent vaccines are creating a cascade of more illnesses. And not just a greater number and frequency of illnesses but even lower protection against the very diseases the vaccines were supposed to protect against.
> 
> CBC News reports that it was originally called "the Canadian problem" - i.e. the problem of higher risk of pandemic flu illnesses among those who get the seasonal flu shot the previous year, or those who get frequent flu shots. They note that the problem is now seen in other countries such as Hong Kong, Japan and the U.S.
> 
> ...


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## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

I don't care if people do or do not get vaxed. My risk of dying driving to the grocery store is MUCH higher than my risk of getting measles.

I do not want the government mandating any procedure or medication. I don't want people to lose their jobs if they refuse said medication. I don't want children to get taken away from parents who wish to make medical decisions for their children. I don't want to see door-to-door vaccine police. What are they going to do next tattoo people's arms if they do or don't get vaxed? Implant a chip to keep track of who has and hasn't? This, because of a disease that is highly treatable, rarely has serious side effects and even more rarely causes death?

People tell stories about somebody they knew who died from measles, and we nod our heads and say "Yeah, lots of people died before vaccinations". In fact, my mother's little sister got pneumonia during measles and died. They didn't take her to the hospital, you just didn't do that because it was expensive. LOTS of people died because they couldn't afford to go to the doctor. And yet, there's rarely a correlation drawn between poor hygiene, poor nutrition, poor sanitation, limited or poor medical care and disease. I don't know why. Isn't it in the least bit possible that the improvement of those things also had an impact on the diseases?

Is there a number of sick or dead children that is "acceptable" for the good of society? Is it somehow more acceptable if children are injured by vaccines as opposed to being injured by a disease?

This isn't just about children, either. HHS has drafted an adult immunization plan. You can read it here: http://www.hhs.gov/nvpo/national_adult_immunization_plan_draft.pdf


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

Zanazaz said:


> So while I believe in freedom of choice, if you choose not to get your kid vaccinated and they get measles you are putting other people at risk.


Institutionalizing kids in day cares & schools puts them at more risk of contracting diseases of all sorts. Where does this crap usually spread? Schools & day cares, they are virtual Petri dishes for all sorts of potentially deadly diseases. The institutionalized kid puts my homegrown kid at risk so should we limit the choice of parents to put their kids in institutions?

I'm not anti vaccine at all, but I don't buy all the crap handed down by the government & the American Academy of Pediatrics either. For example, does a newborn REALLY need to be vacinated at birth against Hep B, a disease transmitted sexually or via IVs/ needles? We can probably agree we want him to have it before he's getting tatoos or having sex, but at birth!? And that's where they lose integrity IMHO.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

tsrwivey said:


> Institutionalizing kids in day cares & schools puts them at more risk of contracting diseases of all sorts. Where does this crap usually spread? Schools & day cares, they are virtual Petri dishes for all sorts of potentially deadly diseases. The institutionalized kid puts my homegrown kid at risk so should we limit the choice of parents to put their kids in institutions?
> 
> I'm not anti vaccine at all, but I don't buy all the crap handed down by the government & the American Academy of Pediatrics either. For example, does a newborn REALLY need to be vacinated at birth against Hep B, a disease transmitted sexually or via IVs/ needles? We can probably agree we want him to have it before he's getting tatoos or having sex, but at birth!? And that's where they lose integrity IMHO.


As you are someone working in healthcare I value this opinion. It shows you are not just buying into what they expect you to because you work in the field.

Thank you.


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## drfacefixer (Mar 8, 2013)

tsrwivey said:


> Institutionalizing kids in day cares & schools puts them at more risk of contracting diseases of all sorts. Where does this crap usually spread? Schools & day cares, they are virtual Petri dishes for all sorts of potentially deadly diseases. The institutionalized kid puts my homegrown kid at risk so should we limit the choice of parents to put their kids in institutions?
> 
> I'm not anti vaccine at all, but I don't buy all the crap handed down by the government & the American Academy of Pediatrics either. For example, does a newborn REALLY need to be vacinated at birth against Hep B, a disease transmitted sexually or via IVs/ needles? We can probably agree we want him to have it before he's getting tatoos or having sex, but at birth!? And that's where they lose integrity IMHO.


Your first paragraph is one of the heaviest arguments against the theory that allergies and autoimmune diseases are being caused because we don't let kids "drink from water hoses and play in the dirt". Kids no matter what will gain exposure unless locked in a padded sterile room. I was so cautious with my first child ( hand sanitizers, wipes, baby bumpers for the shopping carts), but by the second if they wanted to eat dirt or throw a tantrum on a bathroom floor so be it. Even with that, Kindergarten brought home a lot of tummy bugs and colds. However, first and second grade had fewer and fewer sick days. My Family deals with food allergies and beesting allergies even after the numerous dirt eating events. Maybe its my parental failure, but it just didn't seem like common sense at the time to set my baby next to the buzzing beehive.

Your reasoning for the hep B vaccination is skewed by your work in the healthcare field. There was a point in time were hep b vaccination was highly recommended only for front line healthcare workers because our understanding and view was that it was a blood borne and sexually transmitted disease. The thought of the day in the 1980's and into the 90s were similarly shaped by HIV: those at risk were the immoral (drug users, sexually promiscuous) those who put themselves in warms way for the greater good (healthcare workers, first responders, ect) and the innocent (children, transfusions, ect). Epidemiology gets beyond the judgement and is pure to the numbers and future potential risk to an entire population. Over the past decade, treatment and hospitalizations for hep B related complications have doubled in the US. Currently there is estimated to be 300 million carrier world wide with 600,000 dying annually of liver related disease. This a main cause of shortened life span in SE Asia and Subsahara Africa. From immunization policy change alone, SE Asia has greatly reduced their spread and is on the decline in terms of carriers. The US on the other hand, has had a drastic increase in carriers and acute and chronic infections because it can and does spread rapidly here.

Why innoculate young? In a separate analysis examining nearly 40,000 participants in the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey in the United States (1999 to 2008), 0.127 percent of those older than six had chronic HBV infection (approximately 704,000 persons), while 4.6 percent (approximately 12 million persons) had evidence of prior exposure to HBV [ Ioannou GN. Hepatitis B virus in the United States: infection, exposure, and immunity rates in a nationally representative survey. Ann Intern Med 2011; 154:319.] To restate that, kids have a number of blood borne exposure under the age of 6. Most often its from maternal contact. Soar nipples from breastfeeding and microleakage, and numerous other innocuous ways can be modes of transmission. You will drive yourself crazy if you get into the minutia. Were my cuticles cracked when I touched my child? were my gums inflamed when I kissed them? Did they use my bath towel? Razor? Anything? Some studies on maternal to infant AIDs transmission (infected mother to non infected post delivery infant) have been as high as 25%. 12% was reported even after education.

I've heard so many stories of woman diagnosed with HPV abnormal paps who never had sex prior to marriage. The husband only had one or two experiences prior to marriage, but that was all it takes to pass the latent and otherwise asymptomatic virus along. It's not much fun counseling the couple then on the risks of HPV- related pharyngeal cancer due to sex contact within the confines of marriage. Its a real and growing problem that's exploding currently in the realm of head and neck cancer. Only inoculating healthcare workers against Hep B is akin to telling teenagers to practice strict abstinence in hopes of reducing disease spread of any STD. Its not much of a marriage builder to tell an otherwise monogamous couple that any oral sex puts them at increased risk; That both should have increased vigilance about change in health after the age of 40! ; that the woman is at a drastically increased risk of cervical cancer. it just all around sucks the life out of a happy couple.

Making poor decisions is a part of growing up. Experience may be a great teacher, but as CS Lewis said, "Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn." The age group where we see most people willing to vaccinate is age 65 and up, and ages 6-11. The reasons are such. The patients > 65 have seen the effects or are just now starting to see the effects of long term latent infections. Likewise, Parents of kids age 6-11 have by this time experienced a significant illness and actively inquire what they can do to further protect their children. The group least likely to seek medical care are the "indestructable" 18-30 group. Obviously, if you can prevent a lifetime of an disease, best to do it young. With most vaccinations, you don't get a second chance. Once you've been exposed, you've already shown your cards to the dealer.


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## lovetogrow (Jan 25, 2011)

Grimm said:


> *"Canadian Flu Vaccine Paradox" Admits Vaccines Are Causing More Illness*
> http://readynutrition.com/resources...s-vaccines-are-causing-more-illness_23012015/


http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2013/08/28/study_raises_red_flag_for_universal_flu_vaccine.html#

Study raises red flag for universal flu vaccine

"TORONTO-A new study sounds a cautionary note for work that is being done to try to develop vaccines to protect against all subtypes of influenza.
The research describes a phenomenon in which vaccination against one strain of flu actually seems to raise the risk of severe infection following exposure to a related but different strain, an effect called vaccine-associated enhanced respiratory disease.

The scientists say it's not currently known why the effect happens. Nor is it clear that it would be seen in other species - this research was done in piglets - or with the kinds of flu vaccines used to protect people. But they suggest the findings should be considered during the development and assessment of experimental universal flu vaccines.

"We need to ask questions and make sure the appropriate experiments and studies are done to ensure this will or will not happen in different vaccine scenarios," one of the senior authors, Dr. Amy Vincent, said in an interview Wednesday.

The study was published by the journal Science Translational Medicine.
Vincent is a research veterinary medical officer for the U.S Department of Agriculture's agriculture research service, based in Ames, Iowa. Her co-authors are also with the USDA or with the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.

The authors cautioned against drawing a line between what happened to the pigs in the study and what might happen with people. For one thing, the animals were "naive" - they had never before been exposed to flu viruses or flu vaccines. As well, the study used vaccine made from whole, killed flu viruses. The injectable flu vaccines used to protect people are made from parts of killed flu viruses.

Still, the finding is reminiscent of something that was observed in people in Canada during the 2009 H1N1 pandemic.

Dr. Danuta Skowronski, a flu expert at the B.C. Centre for Disease Control in Vancouver, spotted a surprising and unsettling trend when she looked at data on people in British Columbia who contracted H1N1 in the spring and summer of 2009. People who had received a seasonal flu shot the previous autumn were more likely to contract the new pandemic strain.
Her findings, which were initially dismissed by many in the global influenza research community, were later replicated in studies done in other provinces as well, leading some to dub the phenomenon "the Canadian problem."

Later, Skowronski and colleagues ran an experiment in ferrets that was similar to the work Vincent is now describing, with comparable results.
Asked about Vincent's study, Skowronski said she's been watching results from that group for years, and even cited vaccine-associated enhanced respiratory disease when she was asked by skeptics to describe what might explain her unexpected results in 2009.

"I think . . . what they're showing is a biological mechanism that warrants further evaluation in terms of its relevance to the use of seasonal vaccines in humans and what that may mean for the next pandemic threat," Skowronski said.
"It's concerning, obviously, because if this is the mechanism, then it means there needs to be a lot more . . . attention paid to these universal vaccine candidates that are targeting that stalk antibody."
Her comment about the stalk antibodies refers to a popular target for flu vaccines currently in development.
Most flu vaccines aim to stimulate antibodies to the main protein on the outer shell of flu viruses, the hemagglutinin. Shaped like a lollipop, the hemagglutinin is what attaches to the cells a virus is attempting to invade.

It's a frustrating target for flu vaccine designers. There are 17 known hemagglutinins, which give flu viruses the H in their name. (Most don't currently infect people.) The hemagglutinins on H1 viruses look different than those on H3 viruses, and antibodies to one don't protect against another.
Even within a subtype - H1, for instance - there are different strains, and a vaccine against one might offer lots, some or no protection against another. And all these hemagglutinins are constantly changing, which is why flu vaccines have to be updated almost every year.
But these differing and mutating targets are the head of the lollipop. By contrast, the stalk or stem of the protein is relatively unchanged across viruses, a recent discovery that has led to renewed optimism that a universal flu vaccine could actually be made.
"There is a very high enthusiasm in the field right now about the possibility of a universal vaccine," says Dr. James Crowe, a viral immunologist with the Vanderbilt Vaccine Center at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tenn.
"The rationale is that if you removed the head, then the stem would be either exposed or just be the dominant protein being presented (to the immune system) and therefore the stem could more frequently induce antibodies and those antibodies are very cross-reactive."
But Vincent's study raises a red flag. She and her colleagues immunized piglets with an H1N2 vaccine, then exposed them to the H1N1 virus that caused the 2009 pandemic. Though both viruses were H1s, they were quite different genetically.

Instead of being protected, the H1N2-vaccinated pigs developed more severe disease than exposed pigs that hadn't been pre-vaccinated. When the researchers tested the blood of the vaccinated pigs, they found high levels of antibodies that attached to the stalk of the H1N1 hemagglutinin, but not to the head of the protein.

Vincent said she and her colleagues are still trying to figure out why this produces more severe disease. But the theory is that while the stalk antibodies can't neutralize or kill the invading viruses, they do bind to them. And that may actually help the viruses enter the cells and multiply to higher levels - the paper calls them "fusion enhancing."
Vincent said her group got its first inkling of this phenomenon about 10 years ago and has done several studies like this one with different pairs of vaccines and viruses, including different H3N2 viruses.
Asked if this mechanism might explain "the Canadian problem," Vincent said more research would need to be done to answer that question. "I think it's not in my area of expertise and I think it's sort of outside of the data that's available. But I certainly think it's a legitimate question to ask."

Skowronski and others suggested the work demonstrates the complexity of influenza immunology - the science of how the viruses interact with immune systems. "The problem is everybody wants influenza to be simple and be like other vaccine-preventable diseases. And it's not," Skowronski said.

Infectious diseases expert Dr. Michael Osterholm said with influenza, there is always a complicated interplay between the virus and the person the virus infects, one that is influenced by what viruses and vaccines the person's immune system has previously encountered.
"I think as we move forward with vaccine for influenza, we need to understand . . . the subsequent host-virus interaction with any response we get," said Osterholm, who is director of the Center for Infectious Diseases Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota.
"It really drives home the need to be very cautious about what are we actually accomplishing."
Both Crowe and Osterholm stressed that this phenomenon probably isn't exclusive to vaccination against influenza. Sequential infection with the right - or wrong - combination of flu viruses could also probably trigger this, they said.


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## Oomingmak (Feb 26, 2015)

What is lacking out there is critical thinking and the ability to make decisions based on the conclusions one comes to and then live by the consequences of those decisions.

Our societies are filled with wimps who cannot do this. They want someone to make decisions for them and they always want someone else to blame of things don't go the way they hoped. 

People are no longer rational and they let feelings govern their decisions.


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## Country Living (Dec 15, 2009)

Oomingmak said:


> What is lacking out there is critical thinking and the ability to make decisions based on the conclusions one comes to and then live by the consequences of those decisions.
> 
> Our societies are filled with wimps who cannot do this. They want someone to make decisions for them and they always want someone else to blame of things don't go the way they hoped.
> 
> People are no longer rational and they let feelings govern their decisions.


I realize this is off topic; however, I'd like to respond.

I like raw data. Don't tell me there's a 100% increase in whatever when the actual number went from 5 to 10 because the raw numbers make more sense to me. I don't like it when percentages are used as a scare tactic.

I like facts. I like facts without someone's personal opinion of what they feel I should and should not know.

That being said, sometimes it's difficult to perform critical analysis when so many of the "facts" are elusive truths with spins off the announcer's or writer's emotions and/or their personal perceptions of what they believe to be true or not true along with what they feel we should or should not know. Somewhere we morphed from Cronkite just giving us the facts of the situation to snippits of sensationalism masked as news whose primary purpose is to generate marketing revenue.

People only know what they know. The more narrow their education, environment, and experience the less they are to challenge the status quo. There will always be groups of people who feel the government (or someone else) should be responsible for birthing them, raising them, burying them, and making all the decisions in-between birth and death. Unfortunately, this mentality is usually generational.

I can't fix the world. I can help with this little piece in which I live. I can, hopefully, influence people in this area by the way I think, talk, question, listen, and learn so, maybe, they enlarge their world a bit to move out of the sheeple mode. If I abrogate my responsibility to be an example, then I make a conscious decision to not help that one person who starts to discover s/he has options in life. We don't move people out of the wimp mode in droves. Sometimes we do it one person at a time.


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## Oomingmak (Feb 26, 2015)

Country Living, in general I agree with what you have said............ and personally I think it is relevant to topic. Unfortunately the drive or desire to find the facts is lacking in most these days. The information is out there to find if one actually wants it, but that is not the case with the majority who have arrived in the last several decades. I have noticed the downhill slide in interest and ability since the late 60's.

There are to be sure, individuals who do manage to develop an interest in many things and acquire a broad knowledge base............. who truly desire to know the facts and manage to sift through the rubble and propaganda. If I meet someone that falls into this category I instantly take a keen interest, but they are few and far between. The many cannot get beyond the need to text and update their status on social media or worry about what is trending on twitter and other such trash.

I will work with an individual if they cross my path but at this point in my life I no longer go out of my way to do so. My wife and I have spent a great deal of time over the last 50 years trying to motivate in various ways through organizations and in day to day life, but we are now done with it. In truth, the end result has increasingly been that, due to the nature of the beast being produced by our societies, it just comes around to bite you on the ass.

Let no good deed go unpunished. I am tired of being punished. They are on their own.
A bad attitude perhaps, but it is my attitude nonetheless.


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