# Warm or cold location?



## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

Children are gone. I'm thinking on downsizing within the next 5 years

Present BIL. 

Winter temps can be in the teens (F). 
Snow allows back tracking to the BOL easy, restricts outdoor movement.
Fire smoke would be a OPSEC problem
Woods. Hand pump for easy water access
Local game good
50 miles from major population center. 7 small towns within 25 miles.
Grid and generator for power 
I know the area like the back of my hand



Future BIL

Winter temps in the 40s
No snow. No travel restriction.
Possible to stay warm without a fire
Desert environment. A water well at 300' depth with in a 1/2 mile
Local game good
75 miles from major population center. 2 very small towns within 25 miles.
Off grid. Solar and LPG
Barely familiar with the area.



Stay or move?


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

come on down! ..................................


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## forluvofsmoke (Jan 27, 2012)

That's a tough call...some compromises with either decision. I would have to weigh the pros and cons of each against what, if any, additional costs/losses would be involved with the move, if property taxes will increase, or higher costs of living in any way. If you can come out way ahead monetarily by moving, you could use that to your advantage with additional items to be better prepared in the new location.

The idea of being off-grid sounds like a great place to settle in, but keep in mind that your battery maintenance/replacement costs, solar panel age/replacement, and if used, wind turbine maintenance needs to be addressed as well. At any rate, off-grid should cost less than on-grid, but be aware that system sizing needs to be proper for your individual needs. If this is an existing system, it may or may not meet those needs, so evaluate that as part of your decision, but again, if you come out ahead on the move, that money can go towards updating or up-sizing the renewable energy system.

The extra 25 miles from a major population center, and fewer small towns in the immediate area might just tip the scale for me. Then figure on going to alternative cooking/heating sources in stead of LPG for a total no-bill household...well, other than your choice of communications, of course.

I think I'd move, especially if my equity would put me way out on top for bettering my situation at the new location...that and being off-grid has been my dream for years.

BTW, I've grown-up in and worked in winter conditions all my life (2 seasons, basically, snow or no snow), and I'm not a big fan of snow or cold...can deal with it, but would rather not have to.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

The water well on the future BIL would be a deal breaker for me. Water is everything. Another thing to research is the fresh water issues in the Southwest. The next 5-10 years could bring some serious water issues to the whole area.


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## Navajo (Mar 4, 2013)

Cold is good....in fact cold in the teens is not enough... moved where cold will kill people in the winter like minus teens...ensures you safety, takes a determined person to get to your place...and with good lines of sight, you can pick them off from the safety of your warm home.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

A false dichotomy. What about somewhere where water is not such an issue & you can garden year round? Where are your kids & grandkids, family, & friends going to be if TSHTF & are you okay with being that far from them?


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

TheLazyL said:


> Children are gone. I'm thinking on downsizing within the next 5 years
> 
> Present BIL.
> 
> ...


There's no way I'd move to a desert environment.


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## merks (Jul 2, 2012)

forluvofsmoke said:


> I'm not a big fan of snow or cold...can deal with it, but would rather not have to.


this is exactly why I would say stay put, many minds think the same. In a SHTF who wakes up and says " Hey lets go north where it's -20 " No sane person would do that and the not so sane wouldn't make it. I think the best plan would be to stay put, learn and prepare to survive.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

The desert environment is not for everyone. I lived in Minnesota most of my life but would never go back. I love it here. Everywhere has its down sides. Before I moved here I made three extended vacations here both in summer and winter.
Is it somewhere it gets hot in the summer? Not all desert locations do. If it gets hot you will not be using an air conditioner off grid. Maybe a swamp cooler. You have to have water closer than a half mile right? Or do you have to haul it to that location? (not uncommon in the southwest).


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## Navajo (Mar 4, 2013)

tsrwivey said:


> A false dichotomy. What about somewhere where water is not such an issue & you can garden year round? Where are your kids & grandkids, family, & friends going to be if TSHTF & are you okay with being that far from them?


Water isn't an issue if you buy the right place...just like I said in my post. And guess what we have a nice creek that runs all year long 100 yards from the house. many places in MT are that way.

And yes you can garden to raise enough food to last years. And with a good green house and some knowledge and practice you can grow food even in the winter time.

I grew up in AZ high desert, lived in southern CA, on Chesapeake Bay, Mississippi, Missouri and visited every environment in the lower 48 along with weeks in Hawaii on several islands. So making a choice of where to live wasn't made without knowing what possible choices are available.

I have my wife , she makes up my family. Also have three kids, so far they all love living in the country and want to live near us when they grow up. As far as relatives, they are spread out all over the country...and they have done some moving over the years...

Oh and guess what....they all plan on coming up hear when the SHTF....


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## Navajo (Mar 4, 2013)

merks said:


> this is exactly why I would say stay put, many minds think the same. In a SHTF who wakes up and says " Hey lets go north where it's -20 " No sane person would do that and the not so sane wouldn't make it. I think the best plan would be to stay put, learn and prepare to survive.


 We use to live in northern Maryland , had cold weather gear then....then moved to southern Idaho and bought even more winter gear...Then moved the western MT mountains, where minus 20 was common and once in a while -30 .. talk about not having the right gear!!!

You plan on coming up here? You better make plans to have gear that will keep you alive!!!


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## doubleTHICK (Jun 19, 2012)

Define your priorities.

Although I love where we are now, nothing huge but big enough for a few goats/chickens/cow or two/ 1/2 to an acre garden/nice size shop, when we do it again WATER will be our priority. 
Checked for a well possibility but no luck and living in Texas we get crap rainfall so a water procurement is top of the list.

Next place will have at least two or more for water: well, stream, pond, quarry, rain, gutters for rain catch. 

Define what is important to you, and, maybe it is not just one thing. If the vote is for one of those two then put me down for #2, MOVE.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

> additional costs/losses would be involved with the move, if property taxes will increase, or higher costs of living in any way.


Part of the reason to down size is to also reduce expense. The new BOL meets that criteria.

Maintenance/upkeep is another reason. Contrary to what my mind tells me, my body is telling me that I'm not getting any younger.



> with good lines of sight, you can pick them off from the safety of your warm home.


Present BOL is in a woods. There is no good lines of site. New BOL has exceptional lines of site.



> Where are your kids & grandkids, family, & friends going to be if TSHTF & are you okay with being that far from them?


Presently Son and family is on the west coast and Daughter and family is on the east coast. The odds of them being able to arrive at either BOL is slim. 



> You have to have water closer than a half mile right? Or do you have to haul it to that location?


2 properties share the well. Well water is piped into the house. The pump is on the grid. I figure SHTF convert to solar. It would be a pain to manually pull water up 300' and transport 1/2 mile.



> Is it somewhere it gets hot in the summer?


Highs in the 90s. When we visited the location a record high of 100, step over into the shade (or wear a hat) and it was comfortable. No A/C or swamp cooler needed IMHO.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

BOL options. Nice.wish I was at that crossroads.


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## Enchant18 (Feb 21, 2012)

It sounds like we live in similar conditions currently and are also looking to downsize in the next year. I like the idea of incorporating everything I want new without trying to retrofit our existing.
But as a personal preference water is my priority. If the new BIL has enough yearly rainfall and a large enough catchment tank it could work for you. Have you checked into the rainfall averages? Especially in the dry years?


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

Enchant18 said:


> ...If the new BIL has enough yearly rainfall and a large enough catchment tank it could work for you. Have you checked into the rainfall averages? Especially in the dry years?


On the slim side. Rainfall average is a little over 1" per month. The 2 "wet" months average 3" and the two "dry" months average 3/10 "

In theory a catchment tank 50' x 50' would average 1,526 gallons a month or 26 gallons a day per person. In reality with the dry heat I'd loose most from evaporation.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

It sounds not too bad. Plus the simple fact that the s may never htf. It is a big change that may be hard to undo without a lot of financial loss. Choose carefully. I'm happy here but you might not be.


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## Enchant18 (Feb 21, 2012)

That would be a deal breaker for me but whole cultures have managed just fine in those conditions. I would take a region specific permaculture class if you wanted to garden. I would imagine growing there might be a challenge.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

I'm going to reveal a little secret that I found out about the deserts of Northern Nevada. If you drive on I-80 from Wendover to Reno and you are not familiar with surrounding areas you might just have the assumption that all the land along the freeway is nothing but sand and sagebrush but you'd be wrong. All the one has to do is take a side trip into the mountain canyons and you'll be amazed at the difference, plum and elderberry thickets, little streams full of trout, hidden forests of pretty good sized juniper and grassy fields with surface springs. Deer, antelope and even elk and so many chukar I couldn't believe it. When my wife and I started looking around some of these areas we actually found that there was more surface spring water available than where we live in S.W. Oregon. The only downside is that the area we were running around is high desert, 4,000 feet and above so along with being constantly windy (a plus for wind generator of which we saw many), that elevation does contribute to some pretty bad wind chill factors. My wife is not at all of the frame of mind to live there, but I could. Anyway, we've put too much into where we are living, plus just turning 71, to make any major move. Now I have thought of selling our place and buying a large sailboat and tying up in a harbor in Costa Rica for the rest of our days but that ain't going to happen so we be happy where we are and the plus is that we do have great neighbors we can rely on and that's often a hard one to come by.


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## dirtgrrl (Jun 5, 2011)

Well, I hate the cold. My bones hurt when it's cold, but I've had issues with heat exhaustion too. Your new place sounds about like heaven to me. Yeah, I'm not getting any younger, and it's hell doing anything when you hurt.

The thing I would beware of is a shared well, especially if it wasn't on my property. It may cost about 8k - 12k to have a well drilled, depending on depth, substrate and how much storage and pressure you need. So you may want to factor that in your cost estimates. 

Twelve inches of rainfall a year is almost being able to farm without irrigation, depending on soils and crops. You could increase that by water harvesting and contouring techniques and get by in a good water year. In a crummy one you could drip irrigate to save on water pumping. 

Your new location sounds a lot like my BOL and I love it. I've thought a lot about these very things myself.


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## AfleetAlex (Nov 8, 2013)

STAY. You're in a good location. My BOL is northern Minnesota.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

TheLazyL said:


> Children are gone. I'm thinking on downsizing within the next 5 years
> 
> Present BIL.
> 
> ...


Why would you move to a desert? I know some people live and survive in a desert but why choose a harder environment than you have to? Perhaps for security, but I wonder if snow is a better deterrent than sand?

Personally I grew up in the harsh cold north and I love it, its harshness is tempered by its abundance and fruitfulness. With a little preparation you can survive, planting only during the summer, and winter roads, particularly without plows, effectively create a road block on every road for miles around you largely guaranteeing your safety during the winter. True you can be tracked in the snow, but if you are self-sufficient at your BIL then snow also provides a great way for you to check your perimeter for visitors. Now you could, as someone noted, move to a warmer climate where year round farming was possible, but that would strike me would also be the direction the golden horde decides to head, perhaps people would not head into the desert in search of resources, however the desert is still much more easily traversed than a snow blocked road.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

The problem with the 12 inches of rain per year is in the desert it may come four or five months apart. Where I am we often get zero rain in April,May,June, and half or all of July.


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