# Threat to livestock post SHTF



## Sentry18

I read this article today and started to wonder what would happen when 10,000's of dogs are released into the wild if society collapses. Sounds like some hungry pack animals can have their way with a lot of sheep in a hurry. On side note isn't having a flock of 2,400 sheep a pretty big operation?

http://www.ktvb.com/news/Wolves-kil...reatest-loss-recorded-in-Idaho-220371911.html



> DAHO FALLS, Idaho -- A southeastern Idaho ranch lost 176 sheep as the animals ran in fear from two wolves that chased through a herd of about 2,400 animals south of Victor.
> 
> Sheepherders for the Siddoway Sheep Co. heard the wolves at about 1 a.m. Saturday, but didn't know the extent of the damage until they saw the sheep piled up on each other at daybreak.
> 
> J.C. Siddoway of Terreton says almost all of the sheep died from asphyxiation. About 10 died of bite wounds and one was partially consumed.
> 
> Idaho Wildlife Services State Director Todd Grimm says it's the greatest loss by wolves ever recorded in one instance in the state. About nine years ago, wolves killed 105 sheep on one night.
> 
> Grimm says a dozen wolves have been removed from the Pine Creek area this year.


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## *Andi

While a lot of different things come to mind ...I'll start with guard animals...

I'm a very small op when you talk 2,400 sheep ... I have 20 sheep (along with the other critters on the farm)

I would "think" an op with 2400 animals would have more than a few Guard Animals ... either dog, lama or donkey. (If not their bad... just a fact)

Guard animals have been used for as long as folks have been tending their animals. (We have both critter guard dogs & donkeys)

While # 1) the guard animal will let us know if something is not right... they will guard the herd.

2) Longhorn cattle have been know to circle the young while a threat is about. I saw this once, and when we got there the circle was just breaking... and along with the young in the middle was a deer and her twins. (it was awesome to watch)

I could go on with more stories but I will not. I will close in letting you know I take care of my critters or have other critters to help. Anyone with a homestead herd knows when something is up. It may be a new lamb, calf or colt... but we know.

But when you mix a factory farm with a homestead, facts and numbers change... but this is IMO.


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## cowboyhermit

Think about it, that many sheep would produce well over 100000lbs of meat in a year (likely much more). What would that be worth in a shtf situation? Probably worth a few armed guards plus animals.

Personally I prefer cattle for predator reasons but other stuff we raise just gets more protection. It is not that hard to fence out dogs/coyotes/wolves, especially with an electric fencer to help.

However stray dogs are probably our worst problem animal.


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## mosquitomountainman

Wolves will kill the guard dogs first. The wolves that were imported to Yellowstone and have subsequently spread throughout MT, WY and Idaho are a larger version of those that inhabited the area years ago. These animals often tip the scales at 100 lbs. - plus. I have photos of my dog's tracks in a wolf track near our cabin. My dog was hitting about 90 lbs. and her tracks were about half the size of the wolf tracks and her stride was about half as long (you can always spot wolf tracks from a distance because the distance between their tracks is very long).

There have been multiple accounts of wolves killing livestock guard dogs in MT.


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## cowboyhermit

mosquitomountainman said:


> Wolves will kill the guard dogs first. The wolves that were imported to Yellowstone and have subsequently spread throughout MT, WY and Idaho are a larger version of those that inhabited the area years ago. These animals often tip the scales at 100 lbs. - plus. I have photos of my dog's tracks in a wolf track near our cabin. My dog was hitting about 90 lbs. and her tracks were about half the size of the wolf tracks and her stride was about half as long (you can always spot wolf tracks from a distance because the distance between their tracks is very long).
> 
> There have been multiple accounts of wolves killing livestock guard dogs in MT.


I really am sorry that you guys have been having trouble, they really don't cause that much trouble up here :dunno: (they got the wolves from Alberta).


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## millertimedoneright

Great Pyrenees are a very large dog that are greatly protecting livestock...if someone had several of these I would see it as being very hard for anything less than a dozen wolves to even stand a chance since I have personally seen one kill 6 very large coyotes and wound 2 others by himself...a small pack of these dogs would be very beneficial to a farm owner and just for good measure throw in a few donkeys or mules


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## Jimthewagontraveler

BING! BING! BING!
Now ya done it there Millertime.
My family record for kills in one night is 7 dead.
Wounded ??? uh I guess we just never thought about it.
That was one stud!
Granted it was coyotes so lets get ridicules and say that only means 1 wounded wolf.
Now last time I was reading the wolf union bylaws I noticed they were sadly lacking in healthcare insurance.
While the Pyrenees has excellent wound care fair dental plan and a retirement clause that is with out compare.
So 6 Pyrs against 12 wolves is real bad odds for the wolf pack.
That is not factoring in the retired Pyr sleeping INSIDE the shepards house or wagon whose ONLY job is to alert the boss and his weapon of choice.
AND THE WOLF KNOWS THIS SO THEY WOULD REALLY RATHER NOT!


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## *Andi

Jimthewagontraveler said:


> That is not factoring in the retired Pyr sleeping INSIDE the shepards house or wagon whose ONLY job is to alert the boss and his weapon of choice.
> AND THE WOLF KNOWS THIS SO THEY WOULD REALLY RATHER NOT!


This is also how it works at our farm. :2thumb:

Again at a factory farm with 2,400 animals, I would think they would have a caretaker(s) and better fence. :dunno:


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## hiwall

In the old days everyone shot and trapped every wolf and coyote they could (some to get the bounty). But that was not enough so they came out with very potent poisons and finally got rid of the wolves(but not the coyotes). In an EOTWAWKI situation everyone should be killing every predator they possibly can. This would include wolves, coyotes, bobcats, mtn lions, dogs, cats and use guns, traps and snares. Where I used to live neighborhood dogs would sometimes "get loose" and bust through fences to get at chickens (and ducks) and often kill every one of them and that is when the dogs were well fed. In these cases the chicken owner could just go buy more chickens, not so after SHTF. There is absolutely no doubt that in SHTF scenario dogs are going to be a real threat to survival.


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## rf197

Better stock up on Scooby snacks

http://spotonlists.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Scooby-Doo.jpg


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## rf197

Better stock up on Scooby snacks


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## *Andi

rf197 said:


> Better stock up on Scooby snacks
> 
> http://spotonlists.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Scooby-Doo.jpg


Or learn to make your own ...


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## GrinnanBarrett

I agree with Andi about donkeys. THey are very maternal and make great guard animals. I have seen the run off a mountain lion. GB


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## LincTex

hiwall said:


> There is absolutely no doubt that in SHTF scenario dogs are going to be a real threat to survival.


Absolutely.... they are a serious problem now!!! (people dumping pets out here)

It *amazes* me how quickly an abandoned dog goes wild once the Alpha is no longer in their life!


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## Jimthewagontraveler

Yea I got some scooby snack making materials for anything that eats meat.
On THE DAY AFTER my family will have all our dogs on very short leashes And 2 days a month after from then on.


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## mosquitomountainman

Cowboy Hermit - Not your fault. It was a bad idea from the get-go. The animal rights idiots kept us from hunting them until we had way too many and a lot of damage had already been done.

Hate to rain on the parade of the Great Pyrenees fans but they don't stand a chance against wolves. These guys kill to live and they're very, very good at it. Many are bigger than a Pyrenees. They like eating dogs as much as anything else. They most likely wouldn't go one-on-one anyway. If you see one wolf going after a dog it's most likely trying to entice the dog into an ambush (I've seen coyotes do that too).

Comparing coyotes and wolves is like comparing Chihuahuas and German Shepherds. Wolves will kill every coyote in their territory. It's territorial thing (coyotes kill the foxes).

No offense intended to anyone. Wolves are just highly efficient killing machines. They are large, ruthless, extremely intelligent, and hunt in packs. As has already been said, the only way to eradicate them is through trapping and poison.


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## Jimthewagontraveler

No offense taken at all most people have not seen how Pyrs operate.
After watching a team of trained large intelligent carnivores [Pyrenees] bring down large prey it suddenly begins to make sense why they were kept by humans longer than any other canine.
Of course I have never seen them operate on truly large prey because where and when I live that would be illegal.
So I guess we would have to ask the people who live in the Pyrenees mountains to see what they would have to say?
Anybody have any Bosque friends?
And what was that rumor about the german high command Giving a kill on sight order?
Something about only 12 breeding pairs left in europe?
I also heard a rumor about America sending breedstock back to europe after the war of course I did not actually SEE any of this.
I do have a question about Pyrs though.
Why do pyrenees have extra toes on each rear foot especially since I have seen this breed out in 2 generations?


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## Tirediron

people who raise domestic animals need to learn the animal would have protected itself in the wild and do what they can to get them to return to that buried behavior, I know Cattle can be retrained to herd up pretty easily.
but that being said the livestock will need some kind of protection from the new wild animals (both 2 and 4 legged) Frontier law and order will come back in a hurry on my ridge


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## *Andi

mosquitomountainman said:


> Cowboy Hermit - Not your fault. It was a bad idea from the get-go. The animal rights idiots kept us from hunting them until we had way too many and a lot of damage had already been done.
> 
> Hate to rain on the parade of the Great Pyrenees fans but they don't stand a chance against wolves. These guys kill to live and they're very, very good at it. Many are bigger than a Pyrenees. They like eating dogs as much as anything else. They most likely wouldn't go one-on-one anyway. If you see one wolf going after a dog it's most likely trying to entice the dog into an ambush (I've seen coyotes do that too).
> 
> Comparing coyotes and wolves is like comparing Chihuahuas and German Shepherds. Wolves will kill every coyote in their territory. It's territorial thing (coyotes kill the foxes).
> 
> No offense intended to anyone. Wolves are just highly efficient killing machines. They are large, ruthless, extremely intelligent, and hunt in packs. As has already been said, the only way to eradicate them is through trapping and poison.


No offense taken... 

Each farmer/homesteader needs to look within their area and what is needed to protect their stock. What works for one may not for others.

If I had a wolf problem and could not get the help needed to take care of them... I would go with SSS ... :sssh:


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## millertimedoneright

I have seen huge Pyrenees that are just as big as or bigger than most wolves...a pack of these trained animals, throw in a donkey or two, and a few trained hounds and/or pits and wolves will not be a problem...if someone hasn't seen a trained livestock protector actually work then it's understandable for one to have their doubts but I know what one will do...I have seen Pyrenees kill very large coyotes that worked in a pack and I my friends catch dog(pit bull) kill a bear...a good pack of working dogs is great to have...


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## mosquitomountainman

*Andi said:


> No offense taken...
> ...If I had a wolf problem and could not get the help needed to take care of them... I would go with SSS ... :sssh:


Had a friend do that on a local ranch ... didn't know the wolf had a radio implant and the FWP showed up the next week with a locator that led them right to the burial site. He used a backhoe to bury the wolf and they still found it. 

Rumor has it that the SSS method has worked many times.


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## gabbyj310

I say how about "roasted wolf"????


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## mosquitomountainman

millertimedoneright said:


> I have seen huge Pyrenees that are just as big as or bigger than most wolves...a pack of these trained animals, throw in a donkey or two, and a few trained hounds and/or pits and wolves will not be a problem...if someone hasn't seen a trained livestock protector actually work then it's understandable for one to have their doubts but I know what one will do...I have seen Pyrenees kill very large coyotes that worked in a pack and I my friends catch dog(pit bull) kill a bear...a good pack of working dogs is great to have...


Have you seen wolves in the wild and watched them work? Please don't compare wolves and coyotes. (That's like comparing the Pee-Wee league to professional baseball players.) It'll give a false sense of confidence. Wolves see very large coyotes as snacks. My German shepherd easily killed coyotes but wouldn't stand a chance against wolves. People run packs of lion hounds here and one of their greatest fears is that the hounds will get lost and spend the night in the woods. Normally this results in a bunch of dead dogs in wolf country.

I knew I'd be opening a can of worms with my post regarding Pyrenees dogs. We have a friend who breeds and sells them and according to them there is no equal. I've also seen wolves and what they can do and my money is on the wolves unless the odds are stacked greatly against them numerically. But ... if you have the dog-power to take on and kill packs of wolves come on over and put them to work (clandestinely, of course since it's illegal). You'll have a lot of people cheering you on (including me).

Something to think about: in a SHTF situation how are you going to feed all those large carnivores? If food is scarce for people you'll have to make a decision on who eats and who doesn't. If you've got that covered then great. Just be sure the neighbors don't view your dogs as food.

My plan regarding wolves in a SHTF situation is traps and snares. They provide food rather than consume it and they work 24/7 without tiring.

Steve


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## mosquitomountainman

Tirediron said:


> people who raise domestic animals need to learn the animal would have protected itself in the wild and do what they can to get them to return to that buried behavior, I know Cattle can be retrained to herd up pretty easily.
> but that being said the livestock will need some kind of protection from the new wild animals (both 2 and 4 legged) Frontier law and order will come back in a hurry on my ridge


What was it the old mountain men used to say? "I'd rather count ribs than horses" meaning keep your critters close where you can keep an eye on them. I watched a video of wolves take down a buffalo bull in Yellowstone. It took them three days to do it but numbers won over size. The best protection your livestock have is you. Our dog is a warning system only. The hot lead is the real danger.

Incidentally, we saw a California couple move onto a ranchette with their pocket pooch and horses. they hadn't been there a month when a mountain lion decided to munch on horse flesh one night. It killed one colt outright and the little one's mother got cut up so bad trying to defend the colt that they had to put her down the next day.

The couple was locked in the house, cowering in fear with their pocket pooch while listening to the horses whinnying and screaming in fear and the lion screaming in the corral as it worked to kill the colt.

They didn't believe in owning guns and felt bad when the FWP tracked down and killed the lion. "The lion was here first and was just doing what lions do" they quipped. It never crossed their minds that when you own an animal you also have the duty to protect it. (Especially when it's confined to a corral as theirs were!):gaah::brickwall: I despise people like that!


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## PipLogan




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## Jimthewagontraveler

Oh yea 1 on 1 with a wolf the Pyr will most surely lose.
I dont know how to say this but comparing a Pyr to a dog is a bit of an injustice.
In the old country the Pyr was often sent aginst the brown bear 3 Pyrs 1 bear so this speaks well for the neck muscles and cooperative powers of the Pyr.
I have seen the tendons of both and they compare very favorably.
The Pyr usually has better padding.
The wolf has way more endurance unless he has gone hungry for a while.
A wolf is a very smart animal way smarter than a Pyr until you add the human team member.
A Pyr will go up against any odds a wolf will measure and decide.
As far as traps I use them but have lost animals to them so we gather up when its time to trap.
Rifles are the best bet if they are around
I love the comment about counting ribs I have always been taught to count feet.
Pretty close country aint it.


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## Jimthewagontraveler

Wow interesting video


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## millertimedoneright

If you have a large enough herd in need of protecting then I assume one will have enough food to feed those doing the protecting...a Wolf is very cunning I agree with that and are great at killing but I have personally seen a Pyrenees kill half a dozen very large(almost wolf sized) coyotes and injure two more...I just can't see one wolf doing that same thing without a pack...the Pyrenees are not to take the owners responsibility away they are there for when the landowner can't be...the Pyrenees are not the only thing when it comes to protecting livestock but they would make a good addition to any protection plans just like traps, poison, and good fencing would also...when it comes to protecting livestock it all comes down to what you are protecting them from and how many you have that need protecting...some places even use fainting goats as a diversion to allow the rest of the herd to escape...


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## mosquitomountainman

millertimedoneright said:


> If you have a large enough herd in need of protecting then I assume one will have enough food to feed those doing the protecting...a Wolf is very cunning I agree with that and are great at killing but I have personally seen a Pyrenees kill half a dozen very large(almost wolf sized) coyotes and injure two more...I just can't see one wolf doing that same thing without a pack...the Pyrenees are not to take the owners responsibility away they are there for when the landowner can't be...the Pyrenees are not the only thing when it comes to protecting livestock but they would make a good addition to any protection plans just like traps, poison, and good fencing would also...when it comes to protecting livestock it all comes down to what you are protecting them from and how many you have that need protecting...some places even use fainting goats as a diversion to allow the rest of the herd to escape...


Forget about coyotes. They aren't even in the same league.


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## millertimedoneright

So you believe one wolf could kill 6 large coyotes ad injure 2 more? A wolf is only as good as its pack...one on one a well trained pye will take down a wolf 9/10 times...a half dozen pyres would make mince meat of a small wolf pack...these dogs have been used to defend sheep and goats from coyotes and wolves for many many years...do you think people would have used them for so long if they weren't good at what they do? Hell I would put my buddy's lep/pit catch dog against any wolf out there and I'm not sure if he could handle a well trained pyre


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## MetalPrepper

hiwall said:


> In the old days everyone shot and trapped every wolf and coyote they could (some to get the bounty). But that was not enough so they came out with very potent poisons and finally got rid of the wolves(but not the coyotes). In an EOTWAWKI situation everyone should be killing every predator they possibly can. This would include wolves, coyotes, bobcats, mtn lions, dogs, cats and use guns, traps and snares. Where I used to live neighborhood dogs would sometimes "get loose" and bust through fences to get at chickens (and ducks) and often kill every one of them and that is when the dogs were well fed. In these cases the chicken owner could just go buy more chickens, not so after SHTF. There is absolutely no doubt that in SHTF scenario dogs are going to be a real threat to survival.


I know, a lot of the fictonal after TSHTF stuff I have been reading speaks about dogs and wolves....and sadly I have to agree....predators (dogs included) would need to be killed....if they are in a pack....a personal animal probably would help it's people....but eventually ...what about rabies and heart worms? I really hope the world doesn't end cuz this twist puts a real sadness on it.


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## Tank_Girl

Here we solve our wild dog and dingo issues with putting out 1080 baits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_fluoroacetate

Highly effective at dealing with vermin.
Very rarely do the medium to large sheep concerns here bother with stock guardians.


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## hiwall

Tank_Girl I do not think 1080 is legal in the States anymore. Though I think government trappers still use it.


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## *Andi

hiwall said:


> Tank_Girl I do not think 1080 is legal in the States anymore. Though I think government trappers still use it.


That is what I was told also.


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## mosquitomountainman

millertimedoneright said:


> So you believe one wolf could kill 6 large coyotes ad injure 2 more? A wolf is only as good as its pack...one on one a well trained pye will take down a wolf 9/10 times...a half dozen pyres would make mince meat of a small wolf pack...these dogs have been used to defend sheep and goats from coyotes and wolves for many many years...do you think people would have used them for so long if they weren't good at what they do? Hell I would put my buddy's lep/pit catch dog against any wolf out there and I'm not sure if he could handle a well trained pyre


I'm familiar with Great Pyrenees and I'm familiar with wolves. Can you say the same? I sincerely hope you are not so naïve as to think that wolves can only be dangerous in packs. Also, I can't understand why you keep comparing coyotes to wolves. There really is no comparison. Anyway, you're obviously confident in your beliefs just as I am in mine. This isn't the third grade anymore and I'm not interested in a continuation of this urinating contest. It's time to just agree to disagree. :kiss:


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## millertimedoneright

Their was a video posted of one dog killing two wolves...the dog in the video was half the size of the Pyrenees I have worked around...I have been around Pyrenees my whole life and owned several so I know what they are capable of...if you don't want to believe they can kill a wolf and protect livestock that's fine by me even tho they have proven it though hundreds of years of doing so...like I said earlier why would they still be using a dog today that was just easily killed by what they were supposed to be protecting their livestock from? I guess you think these people just use the Pyrenees as a diversion I guess...this dog was bred to protect livestock and it's masters...that's it's whole purpose in life...so like I said believe what you want no sweat off my back


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## millertimedoneright

Also you never answered my question as to do you believe one wolf alone could kill 6 very large coyotes and injure 2 more? I never said one wolf wasn't dangerous what I said was the pack is what makes them such good hunters...as a single they are still dangerous but much less likely to take down big game or a trained pyre...you keep saying that coyotes and wolves aren't in the same category but they really aren't much different...they are basically the same except the wolf is a little bigger and a little more muscular...don't get me wrong a healthy wolf can take down a healthy coyote any day of the week but that doesn't mean it can take down anything like u seem to think...


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## *Andi

mosquitomountainman said:


> I'm familiar with Great Pyrenees and I'm familiar with wolves. Can you say the same? I sincerely hope you are not so naïve as to think that wolves can only be dangerous in packs. Also, I can't understand why you keep comparing coyotes to wolves. There really is no comparison. Anyway, you're obviously confident in your beliefs just as I am in mine. This isn't the third grade anymore and I'm not interested in a continuation of this urinating contest. It's time to just agree to disagree. :kiss:


Just for a FYI minute ... the coyotes in my area (per DNA) are about 40 percent (or more) wolf.

Now the wildcritter folks told us this happened via nature rofl The whole trip from the west via Canada... but I think different. (but what do I know lol)

So in my area the coyotes are just as much coyotes as wolves. (When will they learn, you don't screw with Mother Nature :brickwall


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## mosquitomountainman

*Andi said:


> Just for a FYI minute ... the coyotes in my area (per DNA) are about 40 percent (or more) wolf.
> 
> Now the wildcritter folks told us this happened via nature rofl The whole trip from the west via Canada... but I think different. (but what do I know lol)
> 
> So in my area the coyotes are just as much coyotes as wolves. (When will they learn, you don't screw with Mother Nature :brickwall


I've heard about the hybrids. It sounds like a bad combination to have around. At least you can be thankful that you don't have organizations idolizing them.

Our coyotes are under siege from the wolves. I've stopped trapping and hunting them locally because their numbers have dwindled so much. I'd like to see their numbers controlled but I don't want them wiped out. They have their place in nature just like the other critters do.


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## Sentry18

I never realized how different they were in size. Like Mike Tyson versus Chris Rock. My money would be on Tyson.


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## LincTex

millertimedoneright said:


> /... half a dozen very large (almost wolf sized) coyotes ...


?!?!?!!?
Sorry, but I have NEVER seen such a coyote. Pure blood coyotes have never, nor will they ever get near in size comparable to a wolf. If they DO get that large (almost wolf sized? I won't believe that), they are no longer to be considered a "coyote", they are something else entirely. FYI, I have never seen a "wolf/coyote" hybrid, nor have I thought it was possible. I do know their genetic make-up is very different.

I am 6'3"... I need to dig up a picture of me taken in 1996 next to a domesticated, mature grey wolf. It was about 7 feet long, I looked like a *little kid* next to it in the picture!!! There is NO WAY a coyote is going to get that large, period.



Sentry18 said:


> I never realized how different they were in size. Like Mike Tyson versus Chris Rock. My money would be on Tyson.


That is an accurate picture, and would coincide with what I have seen and personally experienced.


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## mosquitomountainman

Sentry18 said:


> I never realized how different they were in size. Like Mike Tyson versus Chris Rock. My money would be on Tyson.


"You should not shoot unless you're sure of your target." (And if it's a wolf, gut shoot it so it will die miles away from where it was shot!):ignore:


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## millertimedoneright

15-30 pounds for a coyote...hahahaha that's funny right there...we must have the hybrids then cuz they are easily 75+ pounds here...my hounds are abt the same size and they regularly grow to 75-100 pounds...hell my 8 month old puppy weighs a little over 40 pounds and she just started hitting a growth spurt with a long ways to go...if a wolf is 5'+ in length and only weighs 75 pounds that animal is starved damn near to death...hell I have never seen a Pyrenees that weighed less than 125 pounds as mine...


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## hiwall

In a bad SHTF situation the wolf thing will likely take care of it self. Humans will kill and eat almost all living things leading to starvation for the wolves. Some wolves will eat humans of course but we will overcome.


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## *Andi

I went with wiki link but there are lots of others...

A study showed that of 100 coyotes collected in Maine, 22 had half or more grey wolf ancestry, and one was 89 percent grey wolf. A theory has been proposed that the large eastern "coyotes" in Canada are actually hybrids of the smaller western coyotes and grey wolves that met and mated decades ago as the coyotes moved toward New England from their earlier western ranges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coywolf


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## millertimedoneright

A 15-30 pound coyote wouldn't survive 20 mins here unless they ran in a pack of 50 or more...the coyotes here look like a coyote but are much bigger than the 15-30 pound range limit that was shown...what's a 15-30 pound coyote gonna take down a chicken...hell if they weren't any bigger than that livestock wouldn't even need protecting


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## gypsysue

*Andi said:


> Again at a factory farm with 2,400 animals, I would think they would have a caretaker(s) and better fence. :dunno:


2,400 sheep on a ranch in Idaho, Wyoming, or Montana is NOTHING. That's a small operation. You're talking about ranches that are 40,000 acres or more. Gullies and other places to lose them in. There ARE sheepherder wagons all around where the sheep are, and I've always seen dogs. But on a large (and TYPICAL) western ranch it can be hard to keep them in one place.

They don't have cutesy corrals and bare-ground, covered-in-animal-crap feed lots in the west. At least not on the ranches.

Before the wolf-lovers pushed those nasty beasts on us there were mainly things like the occasional coyotes. How'd you like a pack of wolves (which are huge. Around 3 to 4 foot high at the shoulder) come roaring into YOUR farm. Most packs out here are 20 to 25 wolves. PICTURE THAT. Yep, send that sheepguarding dog out there.

Factory farms my a$$. You need to visit some REAL western ranches.


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## mosquitomountainman

millertimedoneright said:


> 15-30 pounds for a coyote...hahahaha that's funny right there...we must have the hybrids then cuz they are easily 75+ pounds here...


I'm going to need more than your word to believe this.


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## valannb22

15-30 pounds sounds about right for all the coyotes I've ever seen.


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## millertimedoneright

If that's all they weighed around here my hounds would eat them for lunch on a daily basis...my wife's shit/chihuahua weighs 13 pounds...the cat is 10...I saw a coyote here yesterday that was half starved and was prolly 50...I just don't see a coyote as small as y'all are talking about even in a decent sized pack threatening anything other than maybe a rabbit or a chicken...if they were that sized one Pyrenees could prolly kill the whole pack before he even had his morning coffee and never break a sweat...I have worked around farms my entire childhood around Pyrenees and coyotes...hell if coyotes were that small the feral dog population we have in the national forests would already eliminated them...


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## millertimedoneright

If I was protecting 40,000 sheep why would I send out 1 dog...that's just retarded...I would have prolly 40-50 dogs, armed ranch hands, donkeys, etc...the bigger the operation the more protection it needs...if you have 40,000 head feeding a large pack of help dogs after the shtf will not be an issue...


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## mosquitomountainman

millertimedoneright said:


> If that's all they weighed around here my hounds would eat them for lunch on a daily basis...my wife's shit/chihuahua weighs 13 pounds...the cat is 10...I saw a coyote here yesterday that was half starved and was prolly 50...I just don't see a coyote as small as y'all are talking about even in a decent sized pack threatening anything other than maybe a rabbit or a chicken...if they were that sized one Pyrenees could prolly kill the whole pack before he even had his morning coffee and never break a sweat...I have worked around farms my entire childhood around Pyrenees and coyotes...hell if coyotes were that small the feral dog population we have in the national forests would already eliminated them...


So you have no sources other than your word to verify these huge, mythical, coyotes?


----------



## millertimedoneright

Lmmfao like I said earlier believe what you want...someone on the other side of a computers beliefs or opinions mean nothing to me...if you want to see what one really looks like get off your computer and actual walk into the woods(you know the things full of trees)...according to that article wolves only get to a 100 pounds yet you have said nothing against the man claiming a 7 foot long wolf therefore I'm assuming you know that they get bigger than what that paper shows yet coyotes/hybrids can't...I'm sorry I don't follow your logic...


----------



## millertimedoneright

Yep 15-30 pounds


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## mosquitomountainman

millertimedoneright said:


> View attachment 6153
> 
> 
> View attachment 6154
> 
> 
> Yep 15-30 pounds


Still calling BS on this one. You forgot to copy and paste this part of the article, "...The Wild Mammals of Missouri, the definitive text on Show-Me State mammals, indicates a normal weight range of 18 to 30 pounds for coyotes. However, much larger specimens have been documented in other states."

The normal weight range is 18-30 pounds. Finding a freak specimen doesn't make it normal.


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## millertimedoneright

Just admit you were wrong about the size of these "mythical" coyotes...I just showed you 2 ranged between 80-110 pounds yet they don't exist...


----------



## millertimedoneright

"Normal" size depends on so many factors...wolves are normally 60-100 pounds in some areas yet reach over 200 in the far north...coyotes are the same...just cuz u have beagle sized coyotes that can barely kill a chicken doesn't mean many other places dont have very large ones...what most people don't realize is a lot of coyotes now days are bred with wolves and In some cases feral dogs which can and does create much larger animals...so once again just cuz it doesn't happen in ur opinion doesn't mean it isn't happening in nature...


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## mosquitomountainman

The Montana FWP site list wolf sizes in Montana ranging from 70-120 lbs. (coyotes range from 25-40 pounds). The largest wolf on record weighed 230 pounds (or 175 pounds depending upon which account you believe).

Wolves over 130 lbs. are not uncommon but they are not normal either.

I'm still calling BS on your 75 ib. claim unless you're just talking about the occasional anomaly. So, show me a reputable source that lists 75 pound coyotes as the norm in your state.

Just what state do you live in? I'll go to your own state's FWP website for the info.


----------



## Tank_Girl

mosquitomountainman said:


> The Montana FWP site list wolf sizes in Montana ranging from 70-120 lbs. (coyotes range from 25-40 pounds). The largest wolf on record weighed 230 pounds (or 175 pounds depending upon which account you believe).
> 
> Wolves over 130 lbs. are not uncommon but they are not normal either.
> 
> I'm still calling BS on your 75 ib. claim unless you're just talking about the occasional anomaly. So, show me a reputable source that lists 75 pound coyotes as the norm in your state.
> 
> Just what state do you live in? I'll go to your own state's FWP website for the info.


That ain't nothing....I regularly see wolves as big as a horse. I done seen it on TV so it MUST be true! Oh, and, WINTER IS COMING.....apparently!


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## Sentry18

Even the pic provided says "unusually large" coyote.

I saw this one just the other day. It was chasing a roadrunner.


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## millertimedoneright

So an "unusually" large coyote over 100 pounds means there isn't any 75 pounders...I never said every coyote was 75 pounds...but it is def not uncommon to see them...If I was guessing from my personal experience the average for my area for a full grown coyote would be 50 pounds but I go by what I see and not what the government says...according to the government hogs in my area never reach 400 pounds which I have seen to be untrue on many occasions...


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## millertimedoneright

What I'm trying to figure out is where the government gets their claim of 15-30 pounds...are they figuring in pups too cuz a 15 pound full grown coyote is in serious need of medical attention...most beagles are in that weight range and a coyote is much taller and longer than a beagle...I just can't believe y'all have never seen a bigger coyote than that unless maybe y'all have only seen them in the flatlands chasing rabbits or something...


----------



## mosquitomountainman

millertimedoneright said:


> What I'm trying to figure out is where the government gets their claim of 15-30 pounds...are they figuring in pups too cuz a 15 pound full grown coyote is in serious need of medical attention...most beagles are in that weight range and a coyote is much taller and longer than a beagle...I just can't believe y'all have never seen a bigger coyote than that unless maybe y'all have only seen them in the flatlands chasing rabbits or something...


So I'm correct in assuming that you can't substantiate your claim to the 75 pound coyotes or are you "guessing" that the average is fifty-pounds and the 75 pound coyote isn't the norm or ????

As to the reliability of guessing" weights, try that at a fishing tournament and see where it gets you.


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## hiwall

Anyone who has ever skun-out a coyote or fox or most animals know that they are mostly fur. They look tiny naked. Animals vary widely in size, just like humans. Area of the country makes a difference in size also. In more hot arid areas like I live in the deer and other animals run smaller in size(humans here seem to run wider though).


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## *Andi

mosquitomountainman said:


> So I'm correct in assuming that you can't substantiate your claim to the 75 pound coyotes or are you "guessing" that the average is fifty-pounds and the 75 pound coyote isn't the norm or ????
> 
> As to the reliability of guessing" weights, try that at a fishing tournament and see where it gets you.


Sorry ...

But in our area ... most coyotes are 75 - 100 pounds. Are they a mix... could be but they are that large... (always have been)

Can we move on ...


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## millertimedoneright

When I see a dog in person I can guess its weight with decent accuracy by size, height, and thickness cuz my dogs get weighed often for veterinary purposes and medical reasons...like I said a 75 pound coyote in my area isn't the "average" nor the "norm" but it def isn't a "mythical" creature nor a very rare appearance...I have many friends that kill them for sport and have seen many of them on tailgates and dead laying in fields near chicken houses...like I said what others on the internet believe does not bother me as how a few hours ago according to y'all a 75 pound coyote was a "mythical creature" and even after seeing pics of one over a 100 pounds y'all still find reason to argue and disbelieve what I say...like I was told as a child you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink...


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## mosquitomountainman

I've seen ten cords of firewood magically shrink to seven cords when a tape measure was produced. I've seen ten pound fish shrink to half that size when put on a scale.

Are there 75 lb coyotes? Sure! Are they plentiful or the norm? I have my doubts. If they were there'd be documentation. 

So ... I'm fine with moving on. Not much to gain here!


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## millertimedoneright

At least now you are willing to admit there are 75 pound coyotes cuz earlier they were just mythical creatures to you...baby steps my man baby steps


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## *Andi

millertimedoneright said:


> At least now you are willing to admit there are 75 pound coyotes cuz earlier they were just mythical creatures to you...baby steps my man baby steps


Let it go ...


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## mosquitomountainman

millertimedoneright said:


> At least now you are willing to admit there are 75 pound coyotes cuz earlier they were just mythical creatures to you...baby steps my man baby steps


Look, I made a concession that 75 pound coyotes probably exist but they're basically random and rare freaks of nature. You keep making assertions yet you cannot back any of them up. Like I said, just tell me what state you live in and we'll go to the website of your game department. If they give the average weight of coyotes in your area as 75 pounds then I'll accept that. If they give a different number then I'll write your assertions off as BS. You really sound like the guy down the road who's always bragging about these big fish he catches only when pressed on showing the evidence he either let them go or ate them. Lots of talk, nothing to back it up.

I was actually beginning to feel sorry for you because you had no real evidence to back up your claims but then you opened your mouth once more and stuck your foot in it.

So ... put up or shut up. Otherwise I'm just categorizing you as someone who takes an isolated incident then continues to expand his story in the hope that some poor fool will actually believe him.


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## millertimedoneright

I've already said that the average wasn't 75 pounds so why would I need to show evidence of that....I'm confused...all I said was I have seen them, they aren't mythical, and aren't the rare once in a lifetime experience u will have us to believe...


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## millertimedoneright

Besides why would I need to brag about the size of our coyotes? This ain't some big game I killed its just a local pest...I have my opinions and know what I have experienced don't like it keep moving...I have nothing to prove to anyone especially an Internet nazi who hides behind the Internet and believes everything he finds there...I never would have thought someone on a prepper website would need government approval before he seen something to be true but hey to each his own...spend some time on the land in and around chicken houses then come back and talk to me...until u leave the computer u will never experience anything


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## millertimedoneright

Average male is 45 pounds for my area and throw in an all you can eat buffet of chickens and its easy to see them getting well over the 50 pound average I stated earlier...


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## millertimedoneright

Not to far from me


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## millertimedoneright

millertimedoneright said:


> Not to far from me
> 
> And with this I'm done


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## mosquitomountainman

Well, at least you tried!


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## crwilson

there was a incident where 4 wolves killed 11 great pyr in one attack. so I don't think they have much chance against a small pack that has exp. working together. Also I was reading a news article about a sheep farmer in Montana where the wolves used his pyr as hor durves as he put it. However get some pyr that have exp against wolves and work together and maybe the numbers would shift the other way.


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## Tirediron

Would wolves be a bigger threat post SHTF ?, when they would probably be shot on sight. Shepards wagons would probably make a come back.


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## mosquitomountainman

Tirediron said:


> Would wolves be a bigger threat post SHTF ?, when they would probably be shot on sight. Shepards wagons would probably make a come back.


The problem is seeing them to shoot them. Once they've been shot at they get kinda sneaky. You'll need traps and poison just like they used to eradicate the pests the first time.


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## cnsper

A buddy of mine has 2 of these










And one of these










And they just had their first test. They took on a mountain lion and chased it off. The Caucasians are just under a year old. The heeler is around 2 years old.

On the other hand if you want to protect your cattle from wolves you need one of these.










Wolves went after his calves and his bull killed 3 of them before the rest ran off. He also killed 3 german shepherds one day, we had to pull one off his horns.


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## mosquitomountainman

cnsper said:


> A buddy of mine has 2 of these
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And one of these
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And they just had their first test. They took on a mountain lion and chased it off. The Caucasians are just under a year old. The heeler is around 2 years old.
> 
> On the other hand if you want to protect your cattle from wolves you need one of these.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wolves went after his calves and his bull killed 3 of them before the rest ran off. He also killed 3 german shepherds one day, we had to pull one off his horns.


Mountain lions are easy to run off. Wolves are whole different story. They're much more tenacious. Dogs are not considered a threat to them. The bull is impressive and is the best wolf deterrent I've seen on this thread yet. What kind of wolves did he kill?

Our German Shepherd took on a herd (buffalo) cow once. (The bull was still a little guy.) I finally got his attention long enough to get him out of the pasture but he was doing his best to rip her apart while she was doing her best to gore and stomp him into the ground. That was the best fight I've ever seen but I wanted to get them apart just in case he got lucky and hamstrung her or ripped her belly open (it was the neighbor's buffalo herd) or she killed him. Buffalo are unbelievably quick! That dog loved to fight and I saw him take on four big dogs at a time and send them running for safety. He'd met his match with the old cow though. That's the only fight he ever left without a clear victory.


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## Tirediron

Rangy cattle are pretty good a herd defence 





Pets that are trained to tolerate dogs and stand while you mess with their calves are a different story.

Our Dog knows not to go too close to our cattle unless we are in the pen with them,

Humans love to take the nature out of nature and that is a really good way to cause problems for themselves.


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## redhorse

Tirediron said:


> Rangy cattle are pretty good a herd defence
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pets that are trained to tolerate dogs and stand while you mess with their calves are a different story.
> 
> Our Dog knows not to go too close to our cattle unless we are in the pen with them,
> 
> Humans love to take the nature out of nature and that is a really good way to cause problems for themselves.


Wow, imagine if that cow had horns!

We have a donkey for preadator control. He won't even let my dogs in the pasture, and has killed a couple coyotes over the years. At least I am assuming he was the one responsible for the trampled carcasses I found. He chases after them and tries to jump and stomp on them with his front legs, and those jaws are right behind. A coyote or wolf spine wouldn't stand a chance against those chompers I do't think. Plus he has a super loud bray that the neighbor two miles away can hear. If I hear him braying, I go check the pasture, although I sleep through it at night. He will sound off at anything he percieves as a threat, including strange vehicles or dogs.


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## InfoDude

Lol mountain lions are easy to run off, I had two little chihuahua's who chased one off at my dads ranch haha, did not expect that outcome at all


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## FatTire

Yep, mountain lions have to feel pretty sure that any particular meal wont be its last, where as a pack of wolves can afford to take reasonable losses from time to time.

I honestly dont understand the disdain people have for wolves. I understand the populations need to be managed, but poisoning and trapping to extinction? Just doesnt seem right to me. There has to be a solution that allows for healthy wolf populations, and doesnt bankrupt ranchers taking losses to wolf kills.


----------



## mosquitomountainman

FatTire said:


> Yep, mountain lions have to feel pretty sure that any particular meal wont be its last, where as a pack of wolves can afford to take reasonable losses from time to time.
> 
> I honestly dont understand the disdain people have for wolves. I understand the populations need to be managed, but poisoning and trapping to extinction? Just doesnt seem right to me. There has to be a solution that allows for healthy wolf populations, and doesnt bankrupt ranchers taking losses to wolf kills.


Wolves are predators and that means that they are competition for food resources. They really do not contribute anything that coyotes are not already doing so there's no real need for them. Wolves are very difficult to control. They've decimated wildlife populations wherever they live and they then move on to domestic animals. If you have an animal that's causing you problems but contributes nothing good to the equation it's a problem animal. Remove it.

There's more to it than this but overall wolves just don't make good neighbors.


----------



## mosquitomountainman

FatTire said:


> Yep, mountain lions have to feel pretty sure that any particular meal wont be its last, where as a pack of wolves can afford to take reasonable losses from time to time.
> 
> I honestly dont understand the disdain people have for wolves. I understand the populations need to be managed, but poisoning and trapping to extinction? Just doesnt seem right to me. There has to be a solution that allows for healthy wolf populations, and doesnt bankrupt ranchers taking losses to wolf kills.


The best way to ensure the survival of wolves is for the animal rights wackos to let hunters control populations. The best way to ensure that wolves will be decimated is for animal rights wackos to keep trying to "protect" them while populations (and problems) skyrocket.


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## FatTire

mosquitomountainman said:


> The best way to ensure the survival of wolves is for the animal rights wackos to let hunters control populations. The best way to ensure that wolves will be decimated is for animal rights wackos to keep trying to "protect" them while populations (and problems) skyrocket.


Ok, but you seem to be saying wolves need to be exterminated to the extinction of the species. Dont you think thats going to engender a very defensive, unreasonable response?

As i said, I agree the population needs to be managed. Your assertion that wolves contribute nothing is your personal judgement call. For many people, simply being able to see wild wolves, to photograph and film them, is very fulfilling. Personally, I think such films could serve a vital role in waking people up to the fact that a hunter taking a deer with a rifle is far more humane than a deer being eaten alive by a pack of wolves. the circle of life isnt a cartoon filled with animals happily getting along, but it does have a certain harsh beauty, and I think that merits keeping it around and intact.


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## hiwall

Everyone just about has an opinion on wolves. They are obviously a natural part of the environment. But are also capable of quite severe economic harm (something they couldn't do 200 years ago). They lower deer/elk/moose populations that the state fish&wildlife departments depend on for funding(through license sales) plus of course domestic livestock predation.


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## mosquitomountainman

FatTire said:


> Ok, but you seem to be saying wolves need to be exterminated to the extinction of the species. Dont you think thats going to engender a very defensive, unreasonable response?
> 
> As i said, I agree the population needs to be managed. Your assertion that wolves contribute nothing is your personal judgement call. For many people, simply being able to see wild wolves, to photograph and film them, is very fulfilling. Personally, I think such films could serve a vital role in waking people up to the fact that a hunter taking a deer with a rifle is far more humane than a deer being eaten alive by a pack of wolves. the circle of life isnt a cartoon filled with animals happily getting along, but it does have a certain harsh beauty, and I think that merits keeping it around and intact.


Controlling populations is the key. On one hand I don't mind having a few around but on the other hand, if they were exterminated from the planet I wouldn't lose a night's sleep either. Sorry not a lot of romantic tendencies in me! I'm sincerely grateful that I don't have to worry about a T-Rex walking through my backyard or a lot of other creatures that see me and mine as part of their food chain.


----------



## mosquitomountainman

hiwall said:


> Everyone just about has an opinion on wolves. They are obviously a natural part of the environment. But are also capable of quite severe economic harm (something they couldn't do 200 years ago). They lower deer/elk/moose populations that the state fish&wildlife departments depend on for funding(through license sales) plus of course domestic livestock predation.


Farmers, ranchers, outfitters and others in Montana have been devastated by the wolves that have been imported. These are real people with families that have lost their livelihoods due to the romantic views people have regarding wolves.


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## FatTire

Ok, so the tree huggers refuse to acknowledge that rachers are seriously harmed by wolves, meanwhile ranchers refuse to acknowledge that the tree huggers have a legit point regarding wolves being a vibrant part of the wild. So you get the kill em all side vs the wolves need our city parks and playgrounds side. Its stupid and unreasonable and silly. Instead of expending all our energy trying to prove the otherside is either heartless or brainless, it would be nice to come up with a solution that manages wild wolf populations while at the same time assuring that ranchers dont go bankrupt.


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## kyredneck

*Andi said:


> I went with wiki link but there are lots of others...
> 
> A study showed that of 100 coyotes collected in Maine, 22 had half or more grey wolf ancestry, and one was 89 percent grey wolf. A theory has been proposed that the large eastern "coyotes" in Canada are actually hybrids of the smaller western coyotes and grey wolves that met and mated decades ago as the coyotes moved toward New England from their earlier western ranges.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coywolf


That probably explains why there's such a variance in size of coyotes in my locale, most are the '15-30 lbers', but there is a larger long legged version that my girls when young actually called German shepherds not knowing what they were. I've never killed any of the large ones but have seen them several times, they're quite handsome and have some prominent reddish fur around the jowls and front of the neck beneath the throat (markings very similar to a gray fox). I wouldn't be surprised at all if some of these went 75 lbs.

I don't have any livestock at the time, but I do have a Kangal aka Anatolian shepherd that, > 100 lbs, are renown for defeating wolves in their native area of Turkey; the shepherds often equip these dogs with spike studded collars to give them the distinct advantage over the wolves. This dog was a rescue and I really really like her, they are an excellent breed imo. Also have a blk German Shepherd outside with her; between these two the coyotes give my immediate home site a wide berth.


----------



## mosquitomountainman

FatTire said:


> Ok, so the tree huggers refuse to acknowledge that rachers are seriously harmed by wolves, meanwhile ranchers refuse to acknowledge that the tree huggers have a legit point regarding wolves being a vibrant part of the wild. So you get the kill em all side vs the wolves need our city parks and playgrounds side. Its stupid and unreasonable and silly. Instead of expending all our energy trying to prove the otherside is either heartless or brainless, it would be nice to come up with a solution that manages wild wolf populations while at the same time assuring that ranchers dont go bankrupt.


Don't misrepresent what I said. I wouldn't mind if they were all extinct. I'm not advocating that but I wouldn't miss them either.

The "other side" needs to realize that their decisions are negatively affecting other people needlessly. I'm tired of outsiders negatively impacting Montana and other western states by making them into their private playground. If they want wolves then get their own and leave us alone. Otherwise maybe we could vote in some maximum security prisons or halfway houses for sex offenders to be built in their neighborhoods (or maybe a nuclear power plant). They'd scream bloody murder and whine like a spoiled child about how it negatively affected their quality of life yet they'll do the same thing to us.

The problem is that there are too many exercising their own self-interest at the expense of "others." It's the "give-me" mentality that cares little about the inconvenience, expense and damage they inflict on others just so that they can have what they want.

Management has been the issue all along. Its the animal rights wackos standing in the way of a solution. Wyoming has the right policy on wolves. Those inside the park are protected. Those causing problems are shot. I'm good with that.

*Also, since you brought it up why don't you explain to the rest of us just what makes wolves a "vibrant part of the wild?" Just what does that mean?* (By the way, I'll keep coming back to this until I get an answer that makes sense or the thread is closed.)


----------



## FatTire

mosquitomountainman said:


> Wolves are predators and that means that they are competition for food resources. They really do not contribute anything that coyotes are not already doing so there's no real need for them. Wolves are very difficult to control. They've decimated wildlife populations wherever they live and they then move on to domestic animals. If you have an animal that's causing you problems but contributes nothing good to the equation it's a problem animal. Remove it.
> 
> There's more to it than this but overall wolves just don't make good neighbors.


Ok, please forgive my confusion, This seemed to me to be advocating removal of the species. Specially the part where you said "Remove it", after listing justifications for said removal. In a prior post you also referred to them as "pests". Perhaps I was premature in putting two and two together. Also, to clarify my position, Im not advocating a particular change in law, Im just saying if the two sides cant come together and find a solution, the problem is just going to get worse. And i agree with you, the environmental whackos are offering no liveable solution.

As to what 'vibrant part of nature' means... well im not sure i can explain that well. I know when i see a Bald Eagle, it means something to me as a person that likes being in wild places. When I see a herd of Elk, that does it too. When i see a Mountain Lion it reminds me that its a wild a dangerous place out there, and all the more beautiful for that. For me, the Wolf is part of that wild and natural dangerous feeling that I love so much about being out there. Something vital in the human spirit is lost when we decide to Nerf the planet, make the wild areas 'safe' and 'comfortable'. Yellowstone is awe inspiring, but just imagine the hard beauty of the place without the paved roads and hotels and convenience stores.. I doubt that helps much, but thats the best I got


----------



## AfleetAlex

Living in the woods for weeks at a time, and having had to face a coyote (separate incident), I have no empathy for wolves. They kill everything in site. Wolves, bears, crocodiles and sharks. If they were gone tomorrow the only thing I'd miss was Shark Week. Anyone who doesn't have some animosity toward this creature, has never spent weeks on end in a brush shelter.


----------



## FatTire

AfleetAlex said:


> Living in the woods for weeks at a time, and having had to face a coyote (separate incident), I have no empathy for wolves. They kill everything in site. Wolves, bears, crocodiles and sharks. If they were gone tomorrow the only thing I'd miss was Shark Week. Anyone who doesn't have some animosity toward this creatures, has never spent weeks on end in a brush shelter.


thank you for your generous contribution to the discussion...


----------



## AfleetAlex

FatTire said:


> thank you for your generous contribution to the discussion...


And thanks for outing yourself as someone who has never camped outside of a secure facility, in hostile territory.


----------



## FatTire

Yep ya got me! golly youre so smart!


----------



## AfleetAlex

FatTire said:


> Yep ya got me! golly youre so smart!


 And your comebacks are sooo juvenile.

But I'm not judging you. Spend a few weeks in the real brush, my friend; where the .223 on your shoulder is for the things you eat, and the .50 on your hip is for the things that eat YOU.

Perhaps your romantic visions of lions and tigers and bears (oh my!), running through Yellowstone will be changed, as mine were.


----------



## mosquitomountainman

FatTire said:


> ...When i see a Mountain Lion it reminds me that its a wild a dangerous place out there, and all the more beautiful for that. For me, the Wolf is part of that wild and natural dangerous feeling that I love so much about being out there. Something vital in the human spirit is lost when we decide to Nerf the planet, make the wild areas 'safe' and 'comfortable'. ...


The wolf issue gets kind of emotional at times. It's easy to misread someone's opinions on the subject.

Thanks for the explanation. However, if it's wild and dangerous that you love then spend more time in gang territory. Would that inspire the same feelings and make the experience wild and beautiful? Thought so.

The feelings change according to the context and experience. What is beautiful to you is viewed as a threat to many others who've been personally impacted by wolves. Would there be any public outrage about Nerfing the gang infested areas of our major cities or would people relax, knowing that those areas were a safer place to live as a result? A lot of the wolf nonsense is just romanticism. People who've never been near a wolf in the wild get this thrill in their very being at moments like that. To those living here every wolf sighted or heard means fewer moose, deer, and elk to hunt. It means family pets torn to shreds trying to protect the herds they've been guarding since they were puppies. It means a lifestyle and source of income lost to satisfy the appetites of people who've never been closer to wild things than the Disney channel on television. It means more intrusion by outsiders telling us how to live and that we don't belong here but the animals do. (Of course that's after they've turned into cesspools the wild areas that once surrounded their own towns and cities.)

I'm not trying to make fun of your feelings. I too experience a thrill in very close proximity to wolves and grizzly bears. I also took a firm grip on the 44 magnum in my hand (several times) and the 12 gauge shotgun (once) even with the knowledge that if he charged it was even odds which of us would die. I've been followed/trailed by mountain lions which I never saw. I've seen the moose disappear from our area as the number of wolves increased. That thrill of the "wild" is tempered with experience. So like I've said, I'm not necessarily for their eradication but if it happens I won't be losing any sleep over it. They do need to be controlled though.


----------



## FatTire

I used to live in california, remember, i done my time in gang territory


----------



## AfleetAlex

mosquitomountainman said:


> The wolf issue gets kind of emotional at times. It's easy to misread someone's opinions on the subject. Thanks for the explanation. However, if it's wild and dangerous that you love then spend more time in gang territory. Would that inspire the same feelings and make the experience wild and beautiful? Thought so.


It is a struggle. The first time I saw a wolf outside of a zoo, it was in a newly developed sub-division. The homes had gone up so fast, the animals were never safely pushed out. It was standing on the bike trail intersection in the evening snow. It was the most beautiful thing I'd ever laid eyes on.

I'll never forget the power he possessed. I literally just stared, from the safety of my car.

It would have sucked to be outside the car.


----------



## FatTire

AfleetAlex said:


> And your comebacks are sooo juvenile.
> 
> But I'm not judging you. Spend a few weeks in the real brush, my friend; where the .223 on your shoulder is for the things you eat, and the .50 on your hip is for the things that eat YOU.
> 
> Perhaps your romantic visions of lions and tigers and bears (oh my!), running through Yellowstone will be changed, as mine were.


Or perhaps you are you, and I am me, and its ok if we each come to different conclusions based on our particular experiences. You are making some pretty wild assumptions about me, and yet you know zero about me and what I have done. You want to pretend you do because i dont agree with you about wolves? Seriously? And im the juvenile one...


----------



## mosquitomountainman

FatTire said:


> I used to live in california, remember, i done my time in gang territory


Find anything thrilling about it?


----------



## AfleetAlex

mosquitomountainman said:


> Find anything thrilling about it?


I graduated from the W. Side of St. Paul in the mid-90's; during the interracial bussing fad. The population was 10% black/white and the rest were majority, non-english speaking hispanic/asian. We had police patrolling our halls and they were constantly taking weapons out of lockers. There was no racism between blacks and whites in our school, because it was us against a much bigger enemy, that was scheming in languages we could not understand.

There was nothing thrilling about it.


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## FatTire

mosquitomountainman said:


> Find anything thrilling about it?


To be honest, yeah.. but i was a lot younger then 

Ive been tracked by a mountain lion myself, its not fun till its over and it becomes an exciting memory. Once a mountain lion came down into town, and I was on the side of the people saying shoot it on sight.. they eventually treed and tranquillized it... in a middle school playground. 

Wolves, bears, mountain lions, whatever come into my camp, I wont be taking pictures. And when we do get our homestead, they wont be getting any free meals. I truly do understand the need to control the populations of dangerous predators. But I think we also need to find a way to live with nature, the attempts made so far to dominate it dont seem to have turned out all that great.

I spose this line of thinking falls apart when applied to gang bangers, so two things about that, firstly, a wolf doesnt choose to be a wolf, a gang banger does. Nextly, some really smart guy, i forget who, once said 'consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds' or something simmilar...


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## AfleetAlex

FatTire said:


> To be honest, yeah.. but i was a lot younger then  Ive been tracked by a mountain lion myself, its not fun till its over and it becomes an exciting memory.


I was teaching a girl friend to track. We found fairly fresh lion prints, so I chose those because they would be easier for her to follow. It was a lot of fun, until the prints went into a circle and ended up back where we were originally standing. After that it was just ****ing scary. We retreated to the vehicle; back to back.


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## *Andi

I think that we have covered his one rather well.

CLOSED...


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