# A reality check



## ArmageddonMedic (Aug 31, 2011)

I have been "lurking" in this forum for awhile and have been reluctant to speak because I feel that my information will probably not be well received, but I really feel the need to speak up and point out some dangerously unrealistic healthcare advice that I've seen posted.
First, I'll give you some background: I am a practicing paramedic who is married to a board certified physician (IM), so I know what I'm talking about and what I don't know, I run past my spouse, so now on to the issues.

1)Medications- Contrary to _some_ (not all) opinions posted in various threads, there is *no such thing as a harmless medication!* All medications, herbal, prescription, over the counter, and even dietary supplements have serious and even lethal side effects if used improperly. Rather than stockpiling your own private pharmacy full of medications that you may or may not need, I feel that keeping a reasonable amount of the common medications that are used regularly in your household and knowing _everything_ about them (i.e. indications, contraindication, side effects, dosages, route, actions and interactions) will be far more beneficial.

2)Suturing and surgical procedures- The vast majority of suturing is done for cosmetic purposes and convenience only. The suturing that is not, is frankly too advanced for the lay person to undertake. Closing a wound either improperly or without proper cleansing and aseptic/sterile technique is far more likely to lead to infection and loss of limb and/or life. Wounds, even deep ones, should be flushed with clean water and then kept clean with regular dressing changes until healed. By now I think you have figured out how I feel about lay people performing any surgery more complex than removing a splinter.

3)Public health and hygiene- This is probably the number one thing that everyone can do when modern technology is not available (or even when it is). Knowing how to keep water and food clean and safe, how to dispose of waste properly, knowing how disease is spread and how to slow or stop the spread of disease, these are the things that will probably make the _most_ difference. To be honest, the majority (probably 60%) of my training will be useless after a major collapse. Without access to high tech tools and medicines, I may have a pretty good idea of what is going on with a sick or injured person, but I will be fairly powerless to fix it. Prevention will be the name of the game.

Sadly a lot of people are going to die of things that are currently curable and fixable, that's just the reality of not having high tech medicine and a big box o' doctors called a hospital.

There, I said it. Let the mayhem begin.


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## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

OH MY! How dare you say such things?!?!?? Just kidding. I agree with you. Welcome to the forum!


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## goatlady (Nov 7, 2011)

Right on the money, guy.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

I disagree with you on a lot of what you said, It may be valid in a perfect world, but we are not in one and do not have the luxury of looking to the future and expecting to find one either. 

I applaud you for your service to us as a paramedic and your spouse a doctor, but, I'll be d*#$ed if If I will stand by and watch my loved ones suffer/die for lack of medical attention or medications when none are available. We are all ultimately responsible for our own health and well being and how we choose to accomplish it is our right and responsibility. 

I agree with you that cleanliness and hygiene are the most important way to prevent, but treatment goes right along with that when accidents/illnesses occur. You put forth some good truth in what you stated, but, as for me and mine, I will exercise my responsibility and prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

I'll not standby and watch someone in my charge suffer or die for the want of a 10 cent pill that I could have easily obtained.


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## ArmageddonMedic (Aug 31, 2011)

Please understand that my issue is _not_ with treating illness or injury, but rather with the level of skill and training of the one delivering the treatment.

Take for example a cough with DIB (Difficulty in Breathing, which is much nicer than the old acronym of SOB ) -

First we need to decide why these signs and symptoms are present: Infection? Inflammation? Or any one or combination of other disease processes.

Then we need to decide which, if any, 10 cent pill will solve the problem.

Then we need to determine the dose, frequency, and duration of treatment which vary widely based on the nature and severity of the illness.

Then... well you hopefully are starting to get the idea. Currently doctors are able to effectively use the bewildering array of medications available because they have access to sophisticated diagnostic tests, and a virtual army of other doctors and pharmacists in multiple specialties to double check with. Choosing the wrong 10 cent pill can and often does have disastrous consequences.

Do all you can for those you care about, but be sure to *"First do no harm"*


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

ArmageddonMedic said:


> Please understand that my issue is _not_ with treating illness or injury, but rather with the level of skill and training of the one delivering the treatment.
> 
> Take for example a cough with DIB (Difficulty in Breathing, which is much nicer than the old acronym of SOB ) -
> 
> ...


I may not have made it clear, and if not, that was my shortcoming. I am not saying this for present scenario where medical treatment is readily available and easy to obtain.

If I, or someone else, had the opportunity to diagnose and treat an ailing loved one when no doctors or medical personal are available, I will take my chances treating them myself rather than to let them possibly die or possibly suffer lifelong/long term disability.

Common respiratory illnesses, strep or even nausea and diarrhea have historically been common killers and can easily return as such in the scenarios that we all fear and are preparing for.

I can't understand or even grasp the ideal that someone would allow sick child, spouse, or even themselves to suffer through an illness without doing everything in their power to help if no medical treatment was available. Where do you draw he line at diagnosing illnesses, we do it all the time now, have a cough - take cough syrup/cough drop, sinus pressure/headache - sudofed, or even to take an aspirin for a headache. Do you have to have a doctor to make sure you don't have a brain tumor causing the headache before you take an aspirin or Tylenol?

In a perfect world, or even just in the society we presently live in, yes doctors should be used but in a situation where they are not available, I will diagnose and use the 10 cent pill.

For the "First do no harm", doctors through history often did more harm than good, George Washington can demonstrate that. How many doctors prescribed their patients "Avandia", "Celebrex, or anti depressants to pregnant mothers? "First do no harm" is a sometimes unattainable goal, I guess that is why doctors have "practices".


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## ArmageddonMedic (Aug 31, 2011)

Perhaps I was also unclear and if so I apologize. 
My concern is not with people staying within the bounds of what they know and have experience with, before or after the loss of readily available medical treatment (for the record I'm am thinking of a world without readily available or any modern medicine). Following the directions in the use of over the counter medications, using basic first aid skills (or to the highest level that you have been trained), are all perfectly reasonable and in fact I encourage these things now, however practicing advanced skills (i.e. suturing and surgical procedures) and using prescription medications, even when there seems to be little alternative, is _extremely_ risky at best, and will in many cases make matters worse. There _is_ a reason why my spouse and I spend years studying and continue to study the latest research and training, and while admittedly, mistakes are made, we stand a better chance of making the right decision and/or correcting our errors. It would unusual, and dare I say unreasonable, for a lay-person to have the combination of experience, knowledge and skill needed to perform advanced procedures. 
I only ask that readers carefully consider the dangers of attempting advanced procedures.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

ArmageddonMedic said:


> Perhaps I was also unclear and if so I apologize.
> My concern is not with people staying within the bounds of what they know and have experience with, before or after the loss of readily available medical treatment (for the record I'm am thinking of a world without readily available or any modern medicine). Following the directions in the use of over the counter medications, using basic first aid skills (or to the highest level that you have been trained), are all perfectly reasonable and in fact I encourage these things now, however practicing advanced skills (i.e. suturing and surgical procedures) and using prescription medications, even when there seems to be little alternative, is _extremely_ risky at best, and will in many cases make matters worse. There _is_ a reason why my spouse and I spend years studying and continue to study the latest research and training, and while admittedly, mistakes are made, we stand a better chance of making the right decision and/or correcting our errors. It would unusual, and dare I say unreasonable, for a lay-person to have the combination of experience, knowledge and skill needed to perform advanced procedures.
> I only ask that readers carefully consider the dangers of attempting advanced procedures.


Looks like we agree on a lot of things, anyhow glad to meet you ArmageddonMedic.

I have stitched up wounds but would not care to be in that situation again, will leave that to you and yours in the future.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

You're right, Armageddon, prevention is the best 'weapon' we'll have, and your points in that paragraph are great. I'm with Davarm, though, that we'll do whatever we can when the time comes. I couldn't just wring my hands and say "oh well, we don't have a doctor and a sterile surgical theater, so we're just going to have to let this child die". I know you weren't exactly saying we'd have to do that, but it sort of comes across that way when you say that 60% of your training will be useless after TSHTF. I would hope that you would find your training to be VERY valuable, even if it just means you know the difference between knowing when you can help/fix something and when you can't. That works against you, too. You might not have the drive to keep trying and maybe have a miracle happen, because you might assess something as hopeless and cease trying. 

It's a mixed blessing to have the knowledge you have. I think people should be cautious, should learn what they can and keep adding to that knowledge, and have some good reference books as resources. It's not going to be pretty when our lives depend on our own decisions without medical back-ups.


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

ArmageddonMedic ~ :welcome:

Knowledge ... is the key. IMHO 

From the past (herbs or the weeds you walk on ever day) ... or latest research and training.


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## CulexPipiens (Nov 17, 2010)

Welcome!

I think what you're trying to say is that "armchair medics" in a PSHTF world have probably as much or better than even odds of harming rather than helping due mainly to lack of real knowledge and resources to draw from. 

With that being said, I can see the other side of wanting to do something. If my granddaughter had a severe wound or illness and there wasn't a hospital or doctor to turn to I'd definitely be doing everything in my power to try to help her get better. I just hope the resources I have available will be sufficient to at least not make it worse.

Someone with practical knowledge, i.e. you, would definitely be in demand. You're 40% is still most likely 95% more than what I know. But the down side would be when you can't save someone and a loved one either tries to force you to do something or tries to takes their frustrations of a hopeless situation out on you.

Please continue to share as without being exposed to other viewpoints we would all have a pretty narrow view and not learn anything new.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

CulexPipiens said:


> Welcome!
> 
> I think what you're trying to say is that "armchair medics" in a PSHTF world have probably as much or better than even odds of harming rather than helping due mainly to lack of real knowledge and resources to draw from.
> 
> ...


That sums it up better than I did. Thanks, culex. Yes...what he said, and please continue to post, armageddon!


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

ArmageddonMedic said:


> By now I think you have figured out how I feel about lay people performing any surgery more complex than removing a splinter.


This is precisely why I (and many others) distrust and even dispise doctors or those in the medical profession. They (many of them) think they are so much smarter than everyone else and that we are all a bunch of fools. Ill tell you what, I know folks that have sutured up animals and the animals lived and I will gladly put my life in their hands if thats what I deem necessary. The self-rightous medical elite can go suck eggs.

Now... I do hope you were being sarcastic. If so, welcome to the forum!


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## ArmageddonMedic (Aug 31, 2011)

Ant, perhaps you feel that I am giving advice that I do not, or would not, heed myself and I assure you this is not the case.
After much discussion and consideration of as many factors as can reasonably be known, my spouse and I have decided _not_ to stockpile advanced medical equipment or prescription medications, even though it would be a simple matter for us to do so, legally and from reputable sources. This decision was not entered into lightly, but rather in the face of sustainability issues (i.e. we could sustain modern medicine for a short period of time, or a much lower standard for longer, perhaps even indefinitely). Since we do not plan on being isolationists, but rather continuing to be a resource to our community, we have chosen an approach that we feel will do the most good for the most people.
As for being smarter than you or thinking you a fool: I've never met you so I have no opinion on that. I _do know_ that my spouse and I have more training and education in this area than most, since we both have made it our life's work. Furthermore, the advice and information I've given is consistent with the advice given by others who state they are in the medical profession, however all too often those individual posts are lost in a sea of well meaning, but poorly informed/uninformed posts by lay people.
People come to forums like this seeking advice and information, and I would not presume to offer advice on something that I had little to no formal training in.
In closing, since I was not being at all sarcastic, should I assume that I am not welcome on these forums?


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## ArmageddonMedic (Aug 31, 2011)

Culex,
Thank you for your kind words! It is indeed difficult and sometimes heartbreaking to tell people that even now, with all that modern medicine has to offer, that there is nothing left to be done. Both my spouse and I are too often put in this position, and I feel that it will only grow worse as things deteriorate. It's both humbling and saddening to have to burst the myth of medicine as being able to conquer anything given enough time and money.
Rest assured that if the situation arose I would do all I could for you and yours, or anyone else who came seeking aid.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

ArmageddonMedic said:


> In closing, since I was not being at all sarcastic, should I assume that I am not welcome on these forums?


Don't feel that you are not welcome here, no one agrees with everything being presented/posted but we can ALL learn valuable information from one another. To quote a very wise and well read source, "Iron Sharpens Iron",

It is sometimes in the back and forth exchanges when people disagree that we can learn the most. We can all benefit from someones life long education/experiences/knowledge regardless of whether it is from a doctor, soldier, or even a little old grandmother who has grown green beans all her life.

Yes, welcome to the Forum and keep on posting.


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## TechAdmin (Oct 1, 2008)

Glad to have you join us! Good info, thanks for sharing.


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## SageAdvicefarmgirl (Jun 23, 2011)

I guess I qualify as one of those who has grown green beans, stitched up animals that lived...I also had my four children at home with a midwife. My husband and I haven't seen a doc in YEARS, but we do our best to stay healthy, clean and physically fit.

I agree with some of what you have said, yet I have treated myself, my kids, and my animals most of my and their lives. I don't take OTC medicines, except on really rare occasions. 

The problems you describe are real, and all I can say is each person must make their own health decsions if a SHTF scenario eliminates most of the availability of healthcare providers.

I do have a question (we've discussed it here before...) about a Type I diabetics (a Son In Law) options if there is no Insulin? Any comment for us on that?


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## Norse (Jan 30, 2010)

ArmageddonMedic said:


> Rest assured that if the situation arose I would do all I could for you and yours, or anyone else who came seeking aid.


I understand your concerns, but my experience with "Medical Professionals" is this, the majority of them will not be in any position to help me in a Armageddon scenario anyways.

In fact, I can name several medical professionals who would totally disagree with you. The fact of the matter is, someone with advanced basic medical experience, such as a combat medic or simply someone who has stitched themselves up in a bad situation, and know the vast majority of the do's and don'ts of moderate wound closure, is certainly a better option than standing around and watching someone bleed out.

Sure, someone who is shot through the liver with a high caliber round is not going to make it without EVAC to a trauma OR, but certainly a hemorrhagic tissue wound is within many skill sets to treat.

Perhaps you are prepared to take that bailout approach, but with even with a moderate level of trauma experience, a person who has a small chance of saving someone, is still better than someone who has advanced medical skills, and is too chicken shit or self righteous to even attempt to save a life.

Personally I find the vast majority of medical PHD's practicing today magnificent displays of pompous elitists, who consider themselves way above the mere peasants they treat, and charge outrageous sums of money, all so they can drive the Mercedes and have a lovely tiled swimming pool and a vacation home in the Bahamas.

This forum is for the LAST RESORT SCENARIOS. I personally stand in DISGUST of any medical professional, pompous enough to lecture the "poor peasant laymen class" for wanting to learn as much as possible, about anything that could save a life in a do or die situation.

Personally I think you need to save your holier than thou speeches for those content to lay down and die, if they get a septic infection, and are forced to eat horse antibiotics as a last ditch attempt to save their life. :congrat:

The world of prepared survivalists have a saying, be positive, be helpful, give good advice, OR GET STEPPING.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

Everyone can learn how to do emergency proceedures that could help save a life. Not everyone will.

ArmageddonMedic, just so that you know, I grew up in a house-hold where both my parents were in the medical field, I grew up with medical text-books and medical dictionarys in the house. By the time I was in grade 6, I was officially listed as the youngest certified first-aider in the province. Since grade 6 I have certified and re-certified in water-safety first-aid, industrial first-aid and wilderness first-aid. My last three re-certifications are all in wilderness first-aid. Simple math, based on a certificate lasting 3 years before recert is required at the forth year, you will know that I am no longer a spring-chicken.

As a wilderness first-aider, I am taught more than just how to apply a bandage - I was taught how to build shelters, how to build fires, how to splint broken bones, how to deal with gun-shot wounds, how to deal with arrow wounds, how to deal with diabetes, how to deal with altitude sickness, how to recover and transport people where there are no ways of safely moving them within the confines of an ambulance. The courses I have taken in wilderness first-aid are more advanced in many ways than the EMT courses (my ex-GF was an EMT and I taught her stuff, but, she also taught me things too). As a wilderness first-aider, I was taught in class "mountain medicine", I have books on "RockyMountain medicine" which describes in very clear detail what plants can help and what plants can hurt and the doses that are best for helping.

ArmageddonMedic, you can take my writing for what it is worth, not much, but, I hope that those reading will decide that taking a RedCross (or similar) based course in WildernessFirstAid is worth it, before it is too late.

For those wondering where they could do such a course, use Google to search for "Wilderness FirstAid" and either the state or province that you are located in. For those who are located in southern Alberta, I took my course through InsideOut Experience. The instructor is beyond amazing, knows so much and can teach many so much in very little time. I have done both his 20hr and 40hr courses - in the dead-middle of winter with snow on the ground ....


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## ArmageddonMedic (Aug 31, 2011)

Sage, though I'm not certain how it was done, I know that insulin for human use was first widely extracted from beef and pork pancreas almost 100 years ago. If they could do it then, I would guess that it could be done again. That would be the road that I would explore.
Here is a link to a paper written in 1934 that details the extraction and purification method, though there is no way to know how many units per gram you are getting. It's not a complete solution, but hopefully it's a starting point for you.

http://www.jbc.org/content/106/1/305.full.pdf


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## ArmageddonMedic (Aug 31, 2011)

NaeKid, Wilderness Med courses are indeed far more applicable to TEOTWAWKI than a "street" medicine class, and I have been through several (I recommend WMI of NOLS to those in the USA). The ones I have been through sound very similar to the you've been through, and also dealt with improvising medical equipment such as splints and stretchers, as well as focusing on more "long term care." 
I truly applaud the time and energy you have spent on *formal* training and have the utmost respect for your skills, and if none have yet said it "welcome to the EMS family!"


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## SageAdvicefarmgirl (Jun 23, 2011)

ArmageddonMedic said:


> Sage, though I'm not certain how it was done, I know that insulin for human use was first widely extracted from beef and pork pancreas almost 100 years ago. If they could do it then, I would guess that it could be done again. That would be the road that I would explore.
> Here is a link to a paper written in 1934 that details the extraction and purification method, though there is no way to know how many units per gram you are getting. It's not a complete solution, but hopefully it's a starting point for you.
> 
> http://www.jbc.org/content/106/1/305.full.pdf


Thanks for the info..I have been researching that option, its hard to find much available to us "lay persons" but I am seeking out and saving what reports I can. I'd like see if I can find this one in its entirety!

I don't think its right to try to pick a fight here on this forum, I welcome any info that I can use and disregard the words of others I don't see as useful.:flower:

I agree with Naekid on the need to learn all one can, while one can.

And finally, *my view of survivalism is firstly to getright with your Creator ...since we know we will all die,* if not sooner, then later. * My family is completely PREPARED to meet death, we know what's (or better WHO's) waiting on the other side! *

Its the preparing for LIFE that is a day to day struggle, and we are doing our best to be prepared on as many levels as we possibly can be. We prepare for ourselves and as many around us as we can positively influence.

For this reason, we prefer to be called Self Sufficient Individuals rather than Survivalists. Because in the end, the REAL and FINAL end, Eternal Life is the only true survival.:ignore:


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## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

Thanks, Armageddon, for your input! I think for the most part you will see people here thirsty for any information they can get with regards to medical situations they CAN do something about in a SHTF scenario. I think we need to be prepared to handle things that currently are rare or unheard of in the medical field (at least in the U.S.). Plague, dysentery, etc. things that wiped out huge numbers of people in the middle ages, due to dirty water, hygiene and bad food. I think the best policy is prevention, prevention, and more prevention. Not all injuries can be prevented, but hopefully safety will be more of a priority to avoid the need to use surgical procedures altogether.

Having said that, I wonder just how effective most doctors would be in a true SHTF situation. Sure, they have $100,000 (or more) worth of education, but they've been educated to use all the latest electronic diagnostic tools and the most up to date treatment options available. Is that a good thing? Sure, if you have a car accident or cancer tomorrow. Will that be helpful in a SHTF scenario? Probably not. How can you treat something inside the body when you don't have an MRI to find out what it is? How can you (the lay person) treat a heavily bleeding wound when there's no 911 and no EMT's within 20 miles of where you live? Even if doctors could diagnose something, assuming you got to one in your horse drawn buggy, how in the world could they treat it? Collapse doesn't just mean there's no food, it means there's no anything. ER docs, EMT's Paramedics, firefighters will be effective only to the point of having had that trauma experience, but they probably won't have the supplies necessary to do anything about it. Who is going to manufacture all the medicine and equipment needed? We all need to wrap our brains around the idea that if this does indeed happen, many, many people will lose their lives. My humble opinion is that it will not be because a prepper gave their child some amoxicillin they stored in the basement. 

Glad to have you, Armageddon. Hope you can learn from us and hope we can learn from you as well.


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

lazydaisy67 said:


> Having said that, I wonder just how effective most doctors would be in a true SHTF situation. Sure, they have $100,000 (or more) worth of education, but they've been educated to use all the latest electronic diagnostic tools and the most up to date treatment options available. Is that a good thing? Sure, if you have a car accident or cancer tomorrow. Will that be helpful in a SHTF scenario? Probably not. How can you treat something inside the body when you don't have an MRI to find out what it is? How can you (the lay person) treat a heavily bleeding wound when there's no 911 and no EMT's within 20 miles of where you live? Even if doctors could diagnose something, assuming you got to one in your horse drawn buggy, how in the world could they treat it? Collapse doesn't just mean there's no food, it means there's no anything. ER docs, EMT's Paramedics, firefighters will be effective only to the point of having had that trauma experience, but they probably won't have the supplies necessary to do anything about it. Who is going to manufacture all the medicine and equipment needed? We all need to wrap our brains around the idea that if this does indeed happen, many, many people will lose their lives. My humble opinion is that it will not be because a prepper gave their child some amoxicillin they stored in the basement.


Funny ... my hubby and I was just talking about this and I think you make some great points ...


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## purecaffeine (Nov 2, 2011)

I agree with the OP on all points. I'm currently reading Emergency War Surgery - not because I intend to ever attempt any of the procedures in it, but simply because I want to understand more about the topic. I would more likely do more harm than good. For example, executing a fasciotomy for compartment syndrome (higher likelihood in my house given medical conditions). I'm sorry, but if my partner is in crippling pain, complicated by her myopathic condition I'm *not* going to attempt the fasciotomy. Pain killers and that's it. I've read up about it, watched videos of it, but I ain't ever going to attempt one in an EOTWAWKI scenario. At most, I would assist a doctor and that's also one of the reasons I purchased the EWS book, as a resource for medical professionals I might come across post SHTF who perhaps need to brush up on trauma surgery before executing a procedure.


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## CulexPipiens (Nov 17, 2010)

purecaffeine said:


> ...I'm currently reading Emergency War Surgery - not because I intend to ever attempt any of the procedures in it, but simply because I want to understand more about the topic.


I don't have that book but I did just finish Ditch Medicine. Full of procedures on treating gun shot wounds, amputating limbs, etc. I agree in that I never intend to attempt anything in it but having the knowledge of what is involved is interesting to me. Should there ever truly be a collapse where ER services are not available and it's do something or watch the person die, then at that point doing something can't make it any worse.


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## purecaffeine (Nov 2, 2011)

Hmm, amputations is an interesting one ... it's more than first aid but can be a pretty critical life-saving procedure and unlike fasciotomy where you have to avoid arteries and nerves, the point of amputation is to deliberately cut through everything. If direct pressure, haemostatic agents or tourniquet couldn't save a limb due to the type of trauma then I'd probably consider amputation if I had my kit with me with antiseptics, haemostats, bandages etc.


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## SageAdvicefarmgirl (Jun 23, 2011)

We've all heard of the guy in Utah who, when hiking got hung up in a crevice and after 3 days had to amputate his own arm to survive...That's tthe sort of thing we all must be prepared to do, if we are truly preparing! And none of us take this lightly, IMO. 

We aren't p;anning to hang out a shingle to offer doctor services to the neighborhood. But learning all one can and storing manuals, books, reports, tools and meds for worse case scenarios, even if all we end up doing is helping a more qualified person, is, IMO a great thing. 

I've helped at 3 home births besides having my four at home. I was in the surgery room (watching) at my daughters C-section. I don't plan on attempting c-sections, but I'll help if one is being done! In a life-or-death situation, we all need to be prepared to handle things we "pass" on right now.

Someone on the forum had a great quote about how we need to be able to do any numbe rof things. He's right. I'll find the quote...


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## purecaffeine (Nov 2, 2011)

This one?


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## CulexPipiens (Nov 17, 2010)

SageAdvicefarmgirl said:


> We've all heard of the guy in Utah who, when hiking got hung up in a crevice and after 3 days had to amputate his own arm to survive....


I saw that... the real "eeewwww" moment for me was when he was talking about having to basically break the bones instead of trying to cut or saw through them.


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## tac803 (Nov 21, 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazydaisy67

Having said that, I wonder just how effective most doctors would be in a true SHTF situation. Sure, they have $100,000 (or more) worth of education, but they've been educated to use all the latest electronic diagnostic tools and the most up to date treatment options available. Is that a good thing? Sure, if you have a car accident or cancer tomorrow. Will that be helpful in a SHTF scenario? Probably not. How can you treat something inside the body when you don't have an MRI to find out what it is? How can you (the lay person) treat a heavily bleeding wound when there's no 911 and no EMT's within 20 miles of where you live? Even if doctors could diagnose something, assuming you got to one in your horse drawn buggy, how in the world could they treat it? Collapse doesn't just mean there's no food, it means there's no anything. ER docs, EMT's Paramedics, firefighters will be effective only to the point of having had that trauma experience, but they probably won't have the supplies necessary to do anything about it. Who is going to manufacture all the medicine and equipment needed? We all need to wrap our brains around the idea that if this does indeed happen, many, many people will lose their lives. My humble opinion is that it will not be because a prepper gave their child some amoxicillin they stored in the basement.

Homesteading ... it's a way of life.

"I am the momma-bear your daddy warned you about" ... 


*Andi said:


> Funny ... my hubby and I was just talking about this and I think you make some great points ...


When I was working as a Paramedic, and even before that as an EMT, one of the things that could screw up a call in a heartbeat was to have a bystander tell us he was a DOCTOR!, and he was IN CHARGE. Some docs specialize in emergency medicine...most don't. We had medical directors and radio / telemetry communication so we didn't really need a doctor who had less emergency medical training than the average Boy Scout telling us how to treat a trauma patient. Many times, they still tried. I had a doctor at an accident scene screaming at me that we needed to fly a trauma code in the helicopter. Only 2 problems with that scenario; the helicopter wouldn't take a patient in cardiac arrest, and visibility was measured in FEET, due to the heavy fog that obscured the drivers view as he ran over the 2 people on the side of the road. I finally told one of the PD on location to get him out of my scene or I was going to have him arrested for interference.

Bottom line, Docs and Medics have specialized training. They don't always have common sense, nor the ability to think outside the box they have been trained in. Rural medicine and city medicine are two different animals, and a lot of folks in rural areas are better versed and better prepared to handle the lack of modern resources and supplies that will occur should something big happen.


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## SageAdvicefarmgirl (Jun 23, 2011)

SageAdvicefarmgirl said:


> We've all heard of the guy in Utah who, when hiking got hung up in a crevice and after 3 days had to amputate his own arm to survive...That's tthe sort of thing we all must be prepared to do, if we are truly preparing! And none of us take this lightly, IMO.
> 
> We aren't p;anning to hang out a shingle to offer doctor services to the neighborhood. But learning all one can and storing manuals, books, reports, tools and meds for worse case scenarios, even if all we end up doing is helping a more qualified person, is, IMO a great thing.
> 
> ...


I found it: VERTIGO's quote: __________________
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, 
conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, 
comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, 
analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, 
fight efficiently and die gallantly. 
Specialization is for insects."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

*I LOVE IT!*


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## OHprepper (Feb 21, 2012)

SageAdvicefarmgirl said:


> We've all heard of the guy in Utah who, when hiking got hung up in a crevice and after 3 days had to amputate his own arm to survive...That's tthe sort of thing we all must be prepared to do, if we are truly preparing! .


but if youve seen the movie you also must realize that he was careflighted out to a hospital . so we're back to if TSHTF we would have been a corpse anyway. like it's been said many times. if TSHTF, a lot of people are going to die.


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## stayingthegame (Mar 22, 2011)

dh is a medic and a nurse, I'm emt. when on a scene, we do not turn it over just because someone says they are a doctor. nor do we have to. what kind of doc are they?
also you need to think outside of the box when you are in an emergency and if it is after the shtf time you may be on your own. what you chose to do then is between you and the one that is hurt. the guy on nageo who shot his thumb off the only thing someone could do to help him (in a shtf) would be to take the thumb off and stop the bleeding.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*President Garfield*

President Garfield would have most likely lived if his Doctors hadn't kept poking their dirty fingers into his wound trying to locate the bullet.


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## md1911 (Feb 9, 2012)

One of my good friends he and his wife think like I do and they are preparing for the worst. They just found out she is pregnant and are looking for information on home birth and unassisted delivery. They don't plan on doing it but want the information just in case. She has asked her OB dr he won't give them any information. They live on a very limited income and don't have internet.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

md1911 said:


> One of my good friends he and his wife think like I do and they are preparing for the worst. They just found out she is pregnant and are looking for information on home birth and unassisted delivery. They don't plan on doing it but want the information just in case. She has asked her OB dr he won't give them any information. They live on a very limited income and don't have internet.


The one thing in their favor is that women have been giving birth without OB's for thousands of years and the human race has grown and thrived.

Midwives have been used at least since the beginnning of recorded history, would it be possible for them to locate one and learn from her? More and more people are choosing to take that route and have home births these days.

They are a valuable resource and most certainly are cheaper than OB's and hospital births.

Note: The families that I have known that have taken this route didn't do it on first births and did go to an OB to at least at some point to determine that complications were not expected.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Training*

Years ago when in training as a deputy , they showed us a film of a woman giving birth in a 1956 ford coup.

About all the helper can do is to keep pushing the opening of the cervix toward the outer edge of the opening as the babys head crowns.

This may help prevent tearing.

You need somthing like a clean towel to wrap the baby in.

If it isn't breathing , try clearing tis mouth with your finger while you suspend the baby by his feet

Lay him on moms tummy and useing a clean peice of twine, tie the umbilical cord in two places.

Cut the umbilical cord between the two tied off places with a steril blade or scisors.

Shalala Bing Bang, your a Pop !


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## md1911 (Feb 9, 2012)

That's what I learned basicly. That's also what I told my friend however thank you for the info their worried shtf befor the baby comes. Do you know a link I might print off for them I looked on the redcross and several other sites no luck. Thanks again


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*My buddy*



BillM said:


> Years ago when in training as a deputy , they showed us a film of a woman giving birth in a 1956 ford coup.
> 
> About all the helper can do is to keep pushing the opening of the cervix toward the outer edge of the opening as the babys head crowns.
> 
> ...


My buddy , also a Deputy, actually had occasion to deliver a baby.

He had been shown the same film years before.

When the by-standers asked him if there was any thing they could get him, he said, "hell yes, get me a 1956 Ford"!


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

BillM said:


> Years ago when in training as a deputy , they showed us a film of a woman giving birth in a 1956 ford coup.
> 
> About all the helper can do is to keep pushing the opening of the cervix toward the outer edge of the opening as the babys head crowns.
> 
> ...


I'm surprised they didn't tell you to use the inner pages of a newspaper (IMHO something easier to come by in a police car  ) instead of trying to find a clean towel. I'm pretty certain that knowledge is pretty old-school.


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

I've helped deliver ONE baby... here's my 'the baby's coming'-face 

The things I learned to prepare for the big event:

1 Call 911. Try to get passersby to help, if help is far away and you'll be on your own during the birth, you will want someone with experience to help walk you through it. Wash your hands.

2 Do NOT freak out. Childbirth is *designed to be noisy, messy and scary* (as a deterrent to the less committed :dunno: ). Your role is to be comforting and reassuring no matter how crappy you feel. Wash your hands.

3 Ask the woman if there are any problems you should be aware of in order to tell emergency personnel. Is she having twins? If the baby is oriented with its head up (breech=bad), renew your efforts to get help quickly. In the meantime... wash your hands.

4 Talk to the woman. Tell her to breathe. If she feels like pushing, encourage her to pant (like a dog) instead. Wait until the contractions are strong and the baby is emerging (crowning). Have her push when contractions are strong and rest at other times. This is probably your last opportunity to wash your hands.

5 Spread out a shower curtain, clean towels or newspaper (NEW newsprint is very clean). Help the woman sit at the edge of a bed or table with her hips hanging off and knees apart. If labor is too far along or it's too painful to climb on a bed or table, place a stack of newspapers or towels under her hips to raise them high enough to help deliver the baby's shoulders, or you can throw the mattress on the floor like I did. Quickly, wash your hands.

6 Cup the baby's head in your hands once it starts to come out and move it slightly downward as the woman pushes. If the umbilical cord is wrapped around the head or neck, gently work it free and clear the baby's mouth of any obstructions. Help the shoulders to ease out one at a time. Once both shoulders are clear, the baby *should* slip right out--so hang on! I hope you washed your hands.

7 Wipe the baby's face with a clean towel or shirt, and check that the nose and mouth are clear. Suction the mouth if you have a syringe or bulb.

8 Wrap the baby in a clean towel or shirt (not the one you used to wipe it clean) and gently lay it on the mother's abdomen or at her breast (depending on how long the umbilical cord is). *Nobody* slaps newborns anymore.

9 Do not try to pull the placenta out. If it comes out on its own, wrap it in a newspaper or towel and keep it above the level of the baby's head until help arrives. Do not cut the cord (at this time).

10 Keep the mother and baby comfortable, warm and dry, and do nothing else *IF* help is on the way. If help is not coming, get them to a hospital or qualified medical professional as soon as possible (if the QMP is you, you really don't need to be reading this do you?  ). If it's TEOTWAKI, you have a few more things to do (like cutting and tying the cord, and performing an APGAR=Appearance, Pulse, Grimace, Activity, Respiration).

11 Wash your hands!

PS, APGAR is usually done at 1 minute and 5 minute mark after birth

here's a graphic with (very) little diagnostic info


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## rachilders (Oct 9, 2008)

One of the most important things all of us can do in preparing for any sort of SHTF scenario is to try to keep healthy and take care of any minor medical problems/conditions we may have BEFORE we find ourselves in a crisis. A relatively minor problem can easily and quickly become a major one if not properly taken care of and during a regional or national emergency, that care may not be possible for an extended period of time. A tooth problem, like a broken filling or loose crown for example, may not seem like a major concern if it's not causing immediate pain, but lets say it becomes abscessed and there is no dentist available. You can quickly find yourself not only in a great deal of pain - making it difficult to eat or sleep - but in a potentially life threatening situation from infection.


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## SageAdvicefarmgirl (Jun 23, 2011)

*I'm impressed! theBlob has everything correct!*

I have delivered my four babies at home, with a midwife present. My husband cut the umbilical cords with his hunting knife (after washing it AND his hands...makes a great gift to the kid when they turn 16!) I also helped at 2 other home births, and was present for my daughter's hospital birth which ended in a C-section. (after 32 hrs of non-productive labor, she had a 10lb 6 oz baby boy, and i got to be in the room and watch the C-section, hopefully will not ever have to do one but if my help is needed, I'll be there!)

As theBlob said, cleanliness is key, patience is second, and I'd add that prayer runs right up there in the top 3!


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## Outback_Joe (Feb 15, 2012)

ArmageddonMedic, welcome to the group. I hope that you will stay and contribute as much as you feel comfortable doing. 

There are things that ArmageddonMedic stated 100% correctly, MOST major health situations that without specific training and equipment have only one outcome, death. No matter what your training, telling the difference between a heart attack and Pericarditis can be virtually impossible to do without advanced diagnostic equipment. Even then if you have just Pericarditis and you are alone and without REAL medical professionals the outcome can alter your life from that point forward if its not treated promptly and correctly. And in a survival we won't have everything we need for every situation. We won't even know what we are up against. 

In other words most things medical in a survival situation are not going to go well and anything major will end in death. We can prepare as much as we like but once we are backed into a corner with a real medical condition the outcome will most likely be very undesirable. 

So, ArmageddonMedic, hang around, lots of us are listening to what you have to say and would like to hear more from you. 

Regards 
Joe C.


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## md1911 (Feb 9, 2012)

The_Blob said:


> I've helped deliver ONE baby... here's my 'the baby's coming'-face
> 
> The things I learned to prepare for the big event:
> 
> ...


Thanks on all the birthing info. I printed your post mines names for them. They have found a midwife and are going to try home birth. Their doctor agrees. Their young this is their 2 child.


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## Ncognito (Oct 27, 2011)

md1911 said:


> She has asked her OB dr he won't give them any information. They live on a very limited income and don't have internet.


Tell her to ask again, or find another OB. Doctors provide a service. They are not at all different from the guy who provides lawn care, car maintenance, hair cuts, or greets you at the door of Wally World. Don't spend your hard earned money on services that don't meet your expectations.


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## md1911 (Feb 9, 2012)

Ncognito said:


> Tell her to ask again, or find another OB. Doctors provide a service. They are not at all different from the guy who provides lawn care, car maintenance, hair cuts, or greets you at the door of Wally World. Don't spend your hard earned money on services that don't meet your expectations.


They found a midwife to deliver in their home. She's due on the 20th of this month. They both seam happy with the midwife.


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## Ncognito (Oct 27, 2011)

md1911 said:


> They found a midwife to deliver in their home. She's due on the 20th of this month. They both seam happy with the midwife.


The first day of spring. I'm glad they both seem happy with their decision and best wishes to mom, baby, and dad.


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## md1911 (Feb 9, 2012)

Ncognito said:


> The first day of spring. I'm glad they both seem happy with their decision and best wishes to mom, baby, and dad.


Thanks their not really prepers but they are getting interested. I have told them about this website they haven't joined though


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