# "HANDCUFFS" and HOW you going to give aid Post SHTF



## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

I have been in this game for a long.....LONG...time ( 49.9 years...read 1964 ).

I have figured out what has a high probability of working, and more importantly what will be fatal, post SHTF.

The one area that I have suffered looking for a solution is: How do you safely help others begging for Food, Fuel, Warmth, Safety, a sleeping bag, chainsaw, lantern, or a thousand other things.

How do you help them, and keep your people safe......???? Until about a week ago, every time I gamed this question........it always boiled down to the same painful, vile, repulsive conclusion. (You don't need to know, what).

About a week ago I figured that I could feel some degree of safety if I knew that they had NO concealed weapons and they could be restrained from a weaponless attack. 

I will elaborate after some of you share your plan for allowing unknown to you beggars inside your safe zone, parameter......????


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

I have a lot of plans for dealing with those less fortunate and doing what is best for all without compromising the safety of our family. Anyone who I would put in handcuffs I would really not want to have around. Putting someone in that position is far too likely to breed a deep and widespread hostility that could bite one in the ass at some point in the future, imo. 

Imagine being in a world where rule of law has broken down, everything you know and love has fallen apart. You are hungry, confused, desperate, you feel like you can't trust anyone and for good reason. Now imagine having a stranger force you into handcuffs (one way or another) how utterly helpless and scared you would feel. Some people would certainly react by breaking down into submission, that's fine for you (aside from moral ramifications), but the others will harbour resentment, animosity, rage, you get the idea.

I am not saying that a temporary means of restraint is not a good thing to have around, but handcuffing someone in a shtf situation that you plan on helping and keeping around is not the best solution from my experience and perspective. 

Understanding people and how they react to this sort of thing would be absolutely crucial in a worst case scenario, possibly one of the most overlooked skills in preparedness. That's why I often shake my head when people talk about survival and preparedness and yet have no awareness of their ability and skills in interacting with different groups of people.


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## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

My question is how do people plan to deal with people who are desperate, the woman with three or four children who approaches you. She claims her man got killed, her children have not had food in four days. Claims she thinks her 8 month old is dead, and she can't carry it any farther. She is begging for food and water for her children. Then she drops the child she was carrying, and she collapses on top of the child, the other children yell, "Mommy, Mommy, Mommy" they shake her, but she does not respond.

So what do you do.....??? You all had better have this figured out. What do you do...What do you do. the children are crying, what do you do.....the oldest is begging you to come help, "Please come help Mommy, Please come help Mommy".....What do you do...??? Do you run out to help....??? Do you just watch & wait to see what happens. The oldest child is begging and begging, then starts running toward your position (Maybe you are in a house, a barn, a shed, a tent, or just behind some logs) with your two children.....What do you do.

I don't know the right answer......But if you look at what you really REALLY know, it is NOT much. Maybe her man is not killed, but back about 165 yards, just waiting for you and your oldest to run out to help, the woman and her children who have mastered this acting skill. Or maybe he man has been killed, and just as you kneel down to help, her oldest get a double arm'lock on your ankles, and as you attempt to figure out why your legs will not move, the mother explodes from the ground with the 12" knife that was hidden in her dead eight month old child's blankets.


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## Cabowabo (Nov 6, 2012)

I read a book once where the people would bring food, and other supplies that may be handed out to a local church and let the church hand out charity. Those that came to the property begging were told not here go to the church. Just make sure your security is down if you plan on doing that.


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## jeff47041 (Jan 5, 2013)

I like the church idea. But, that doesn't help with the scenario of the fainting woman and the evil oldest child. I think about this a lot in my prepping. What to do when someone really needs immediate help. How do you cut down on the threat they pose.

I'm hoping that I will have 4-5 armed people backing me up, and I will be able to go out and offer assistance....Then send them on their way to the church for help.


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## ddowell73 (Nov 11, 2013)

In the military we have what are called S.O.Ps. or Standard Operating Procedures. These are established and trained, far in advance of any contingency. Every member is trained and aware of them. If it is your established agreed upon policy to send people away, or to give token aid, then when your brother in law is on guard duty, he won't have to struggle with a decision or wonder what to do. The SOPs are designed and written to account for moral questions, and a final decision made. The SOPs can also cover how you go about giving aid, to include a security plan. The goal is that every member in your group is aware of the procedures and follow them.


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## Tacitus (Dec 30, 2012)

Sourdough said:


> ...the mother explodes from the ground with the 12" knife that was hidden in her dead eight month old child's blankets.


Wow. That's some scenario you've thought up.

I don't think you can prepare tactical plans for situations like this. You can't foresee all situations. You just need to be clear what your motivations/goals are, and then decide at the time of each situation on the best tactical plan to effect your goals in a way which honors your motivations.

So, first, figure out your motivations.

For example, are you 100% survival?...you vs. the world, at all costs? Then your decisions are easy. You can be cold blooded about everything.

Or, are you 70% survival, 30% humanity/charity/morality?...50-50?...30-70? If you are mixed, you will just have to figure out what risks are reasonable. A person who is mostly charitable will take greater risks than a person who is less charitable.

And don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to say that "survival" is all bad. Duty to self and family are worthwhile considerations. If you totally sacrifice your duty to self and family in favor of 100% charity for others, then you will eventually lose the ability to be charitable towards others. Charity towards others requires that you and your family be alive. There is some legitimate balancing that has to happen. After all, the most prepared among us will have the highest capacity for charity.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

I was thinking about a covered box that any charity would be placed in. The person would be directed to that box. The next day the charity might be replaced. There would be no reason for me to open the door. If I did open the door I would have armed backup. If the weather was freezing and the nature of the charity required it then I would have them back up about fifty feet or so then I would slide the food etc out and close the door before they would be allowed back.

I like the church idea and that might be better in the right situation. It certainly has the advantage of not identifying you as a food source. I would tell them that I got my charity from the church, that the church gave limited food per person and that they needed to go there. This would establish me as a lean place not as a food source.


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## Tacitus (Dec 30, 2012)

A further thought: It strikes me that the type of "event" may alter your tactics, even if your base motivations remain the same.

On the one hand, in an economic collapse (with strong government still in place) or a devastating earthquake (with help on the way eventually), there will be opportunities on both the supply side and the demand side for charity. Those who are prepared can be more charitable.

On the other hand, in TEOTWAWKI scenarios such as a full scale HEMP or a near-extinction class meteorite (with negligible rule of law in each case), there will be far fewer opportunities for charity on the supply side.

Bottom line, charity starts after needs are satisfied. The later events push people towards needs and away from charity more quickly.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

We plan to have a pre determined path that people would have to use to approach the area, and signs indicating that approach from any other angle would be considered hostile.( IE having scaled a fence or "snuck" through the trees) this path would not have a direct field of fire for someone outside of the perimeter unless they had a really good sniping set up. A security corridor with enough room to move in but not a huge space, with a counter that separated the giver from the givee. as well as doors so that in the case of a group each individual could be dealt with individually. We don't have a church close enough to expect desparate people to walk to. If sleeping accomidation was required it would be in a separate building, infact no one outside of our original group or well vetted people would get near anyones home or supply area. The first person that told me or any of the others that we owed them anything would get something, probably not what they were demanding though.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

It is hard to answer that particular scenario for a variety of reasons, first of all I would not be alone. I will have at least one other person for immediate backup in pretty much any scenario and more available within minutes. I have dogs and other more technical means of backup as well, they are at my side in moments if they are not already and will not tolerate violence from strangers if they are "on guard" and I don't call them off. There are only a few rational approaches to our locations, anyone who approaches by other means has shown their lack of respect and is much less likely to get any help. If they approach by the respectful ways then I have several means at my disposal to deal with them in a "less lethal" fashion should the need arise, but more importantly things in place that should avoid confrontation.

Yes, I would offer assistance to that family in most situations I could imagine, but I would not rush in blindly if we were in a shtf event. I would tell the kids to back off before I approached, have backup to help, and deal with the emergency. 

I don't have much plans for outright charity in a worst case scenario, everyone is capable of doing something productive and there are limits to what we could do here. It would be immoral imo to turn away or leave ourselves in a position where we could not help those willing to EARN their way, because we first helped those who were unwilling. It is not just hard physical labour that would be required, a lot of jobs would be not physically taxing but still be a great benefit to survival.

Eta; Tirediron posted at the same time, I had no idea our approaches were so similar


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## SmokeyNJ (Jun 12, 2013)

Nothing says "Go away" "NO TRESSPASSING" like a severed head on a fencepost. 

Obvious 'layering' of your perimeter to give them the opportunity to move along. Not obvious to ALL layers of your DEFENSIVE perimeters, just the walk up portion(s) or UN-welcome mat. 
Outermost- signs advising they move along.
Middle line - signs threatening lethal action, some bullet hits in a few signs, and or a set target (with mostly all bulls-eye hits) in plain sight.
Inner line- heads on pikes and fence posts. (some reason burnt makes them scarier, and not to insight rage if recognized)

Just my opinion, this was an academic exercise right?
and remember how bad it will be when the SHTF in the USA when this becomes a real conversation.


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## Tacitus (Dec 30, 2012)

SmokeyNJ said:


> Nothing says "Go away" "NO TRESSPASSING" like a severed head on a fencepost.
> ...
> Just my opinion, this was an academic exercise right?
> and remember how bad it will be when the SHTF in the USA when this becomes a real conversation.


Do you envision a world in which that would be the right thing to do?

I don't.

Edit to add that I just translated your signature ("It is better, to serve in hell than in heaven with the bridle." or "It is better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven."), which seems to be a quote from Lucifer from Milton's "Paradise Lost." That explains why your point of view might be different than mine. Have I mistranslated it?


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## Cabowabo (Nov 6, 2012)

1) Community is the basic need for survival one family or one group will not last long if they don't.
2) Don't look at charity as giving away needed supplies look at it as buying good will and helping the continuation of building that community. People that will come to your aid

I'm not saying give away all your stuff in charity. I'm saying plan that charity may be needed and may buy you good will. 

I'm not going to even honor that heads on stake comment with a comment of my own.


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## hitman3872 (Oct 21, 2013)

This is a better topic sourdough, but to be honest i have a plan and some people might think it is out there but I have an old horse stable that I have secured into a make shift type prison it is only 3 stalls and concrete floors with drains. But very secure they will be strip searched clothed in scrubs and cared for until I deem fit to either trust them into the group release to fend for themselves in a harsh climate, or this is the bad part decide they are not a candidate for either option and have to put them down. I will say most people are good natured and will be happy to have help and pull their weight to contribute to the betterment of the group. Sometimes it will just take some time to break them.


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## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

How long will COMMUNITY last if under siege, or there are no supplies coming in ever, that is ever, like NEVER EVER.

I would bet community would be the worse of all possible environments for survival. Now don't get me wrong, most humans don't know anything BUT community. So of course they would believe community is their ONLY chance of survival.

You take the community when pandemic exterminates say only 30% (Note: That is about one hundred MILLION humans in America, and about two BILLION worldwide).

Much of this survival/prepping stuff is one'liners that sound good, and allow people to feel OK, even if examined they are totally false.



Cabowabo said:


> 1) Community is the basic need for survival one family or one group will not last long if they don't....


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Sourdough said:


> How long will COMMUNITY last if under siege, or there are no supplies coming in ever, that is ever, like NEVER EVER.
> 
> If you have a community this should not be the case, the point of having a group is that you produce your own supplies, plus have security, medical, etc.
> 
> I would bet community would be the worse of all possible environments for survival. Now don't get me wrong, most humans don't know anything BUT community. So of course they would believe community is their ONLY chance of survival.


I am sure you feel that your knowledge and experience of living alone makes you the definitive expert on the subject but others on here such as myself are pretty well versed in that area. I can survive as well as most, alone in the bush, but for most people it becomes apparent that it is not the natural existence for humans. At the very least people want a partner, and that naturally leads to other ties. It is possible for some to remain solitary and be happy but in no way are they better prepared for a disaster than a decent group.


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## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

Well....sorry to tell you but NO. I am not a "Definitive Expert". Ask yourself....why would I be here pleading for help to my quandary...??? Sorry, I am not a expert.



cowboyhermit said:


> I am sure you feel that your knowledge and experience of living alone makes you the definitive expert on the subject but others on here such as myself are pretty well versed in that area..


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Sourdough said:


> Well....sorry to tell you but NO. I am not a "Definitive Expert". Ask yourself....why would I be here pleading for help to my quandary...??? Sorry, I am not a expert.


I apologize then, your posts in the past and the way you have responded to others gave me that impression.

Like I said, some of us have had experience living alone for extended periods of time and have come to the conclusion that while it is possible, it is not the most natural way of living, nor does it increase one's likelihood of survival.


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## camo2460 (Feb 10, 2013)

While I like CBH could live in the bush by myself, I also recognize the importance of having a "tribe"/community as back up. Life in the bush is not easy, and situations that would be considered minor if a person had some assistance, might be deadly if one were alone. I can't imagine having a broken leg and being alone in the bush. That being said I am sure that some hard decisions will have to be made as far as "other" people are concerned. I understand that there are evil people out there and we may need to defend ourselves against, however I refuse to become a "Vlad the Impaler" and become worse than that which we are fighting. Charity is one of those things that help to preserve our human spirit, and while we can't expect to help everyone, the willingness and desire to assist if we can is what is important, while at the same time finding some way to maintain safety and security.


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## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

See I don't understand how the dogs are an issue. or the "Back'up" for that matter. If we assume she lied and her man was not killed, but he is only 165 yards away. The "Back'up" first, in one and a half "Seconds" it is ALL over. Her man yells, "fall'back...Fall'back". Yes, others will rush to your aid, with the same result. Crack...crack crack.........crack.

Cowboyhermit, I like you, and enjoy your posts, so I am not confronting you. WE all (Including Me) think we have it figured out. We all (Including ME) think we will survive as others die.

I run these thought games on myself several times a day. I have been building a new cabin for the last four years. It was nearly done this spring of 2012, when I decided to pretend to be the evil starving group leader that somehow finds the cabin, or hears about the cabin. I spent two days circling and stalking my new cabin.

The result was that I quit work on the new cabin. and started building a 23 foot high platform/cache structure about 180 yards from the new cabin.



cowboyhermit said:


> It is hard to answer that particular scenario for a variety of reasons, first of all I would not be alone. I will have at least one other person for immediate backup in pretty much any scenario and more available within minutes. I have dogs and other more technical means of backup as well, they are at my side in moments if they are not already and will not tolerate violence from strangers if they are "on guard" and I don't call them off. There are only a few rational approaches to our locations, anyone who approaches by other means has shown their lack of respect and is much less likely to get any help. If they approach by the respectful ways then I have several means at my disposal to deal with them in a "less lethal" fashion should the need arise, but more importantly things in place that should avoid confrontation.
> 
> Yes, I would offer assistance to that family in most situations I could imagine, but I would not rush in blindly if we were in a shtf event. I would tell the kids to back off before I approached, have backup to help, and deal with the emergency.
> 
> ...


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## Resto (Sep 7, 2012)

Post SHTF, All Bets Are Off, The Table. If you come here, you had better have a Cover Letter From, GOD "The Almighty".


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Sourdough said:


> See I don't understand how the dogs are an issue. or the "Back'up" for that matter. If we assume she lied and her man was not killed, but he is only 165 yards away. The "Back'up" first, in one and a half "Seconds" it is ALL over. Her man yells, "fall'back...Fall'back". Yes, others will rush to your aid, with the same result. Crack...crack crack.........crack.
> 
> Like a lot of people there are some things I would rather not discuss in too much detail with those not on a need to know basis but I can explain a bit in this instance.
> 
> ...


I don't mind being confronted anyways :dunno:
I try to always remember that I absolutely do NOT have it all figured out, hopefully I will never feel that I do. I have a pretty good grasp on many things but there is always something else to learn or consider imo.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Opsec*



Sourdough said:


> My question is how do people plan to deal with people who are desperate, the woman with three or four children who approaches you. She claims her man got killed, her children have not had food in four days. Claims she thinks her 8 month old is dead, and she can't carry it any farther. She is begging for food and water for her children. Then she drops the child she was carrying, and she collapses on top of the child, the other children yell, "Mommy, Mommy, Mommy" they shake her, but she does not respond.
> 
> So what do you do.....??? You all had better have this figured out. What do you do...What do you do. the children are crying, what do you do.....the oldest is begging you to come help, "Please come help Mommy, Please come help Mommy".....What do you do...??? Do you run out to help....??? Do you just watch & wait to see what happens. The oldest child is begging and begging, then starts running toward your position (Maybe you are in a house, a barn, a shed, a tent, or just behind some logs) with your two children.....What do you do.
> 
> I don't know the right answer......But if you look at what you really REALLY know, it is NOT much. Maybe her man is not killed, but back about 165 yards, just waiting for you and your oldest to run out to help, the woman and her children who have mastered this acting skill. Or maybe he man has been killed, and just as you kneel down to help, her oldest get a double arm'lock on your ankles, and as you attempt to figure out why your legs will not move, the mother explodes from the ground with the 12" knife that was hidden in her dead eight month old child's blankets.


Hey Sourdough, don't give away your plan before you have a chance to spring it on us !


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

I think your question here is about security and when certain levels of protection are appropriate. I suggest that you read the statutes on use of force. Even in a WWOL these are pretty good guidelines. You might also take a concealed carry class. This is primarily a class on the law.

Every State allows you to protect yourself within the curtilage of your home. Some states define that as the residence area. Others include the garage, while still others include outbuildings in the curtilage. Some states include the entire property so everyone needs to understand their own laws. Some allow you to protect yourself anywhere you have a legal right to be. Today or tomorrow you need to be able to survive the legal system if you are lucky enough to survive the gun fight.

Here is a link for State gun laws.

http://nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws.aspx

Below is a link to ACLDN. If you read their old newsletters you will learn a lot about the legal ramifications of self defense.


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## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

Caribou.........I have taken the CCW class, passed, and had an Alaskan CCW permit for about 15 years, till former Governor Frank Murkowski declared that ALL Alaskans over age of 21 and free of a felony conviction shall have the right to carry a concealed weapon.............NO permit required in the great state of ALASKA....


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## PrepN4Good (Dec 23, 2011)

Our group intends to use the strategy of directing uninvited guests to the closest church, which we will contribute to. The gate does NOT open for anyone we don't personally know & who doesn't have the current password.

At our last get-together, we had a long & uncomfortable discussion about what to do about unattended children showing up, or parents who drop their kids off at our gate out of desperation. Most of us agreed that it was a "camel's nose under the tent" situation & the consequences would be too difficult to handle. It will be extremely hard to say no, but the success of the group is paramount, if we intend to be at all useful after society begins to rebuild. Really, it is one of those "hope I never have to decide", last-one-in-the-lifeboat things.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Useing handcuffs*

The problem will be if the SHTF almost but not quite.

You handcuff someone and move them into a building or to an alternate location, you can be charged with false imprisonment and/or kidnaping .

You could handcuff someone and hold them for LE if you are making a citizen's arrest but you can only do that if you witness the felony.

You probably shouldn't get handcuffs if you are not a sworn LE officer.

It isn't illegal to have them but in many cases it is illegal to use them.

Private security in a store or a shopkeeper can use them to detain a shoplifter but just on a residential private property ?


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

BillM makes a good point about the degree of tshtf, it is often portrayed in fiction as being so clear cut when rule of law breaks down and is reestablished, the real thing is much more complicated imo.

Citizen's arrest powers vary widely by jurisdiction, in Canada for instance it has been made quite clear that one must not actually witness the crime being committed (caught red handed). In some places in Canada it has also been set into law that a person specifically has the right to arrest someone who is trespassing (within certain parameters). 

In all of these situations it is stipulated that arrested individuals be turned over to the justice system or an officer as soon as possible.


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## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

OK.....Bill...........I am guessing that the nearest LEO to Bowling Green, Kentucky is NOT 90 miles away.....would that be correct, Bill ???

So Bill what would YOU suggest that I do. I kind'a get the impression that you are one of those LEO who thinks only LEO's should have AR-15 type firearms....???

Really Bill talk to me.......assume you are not and have never had any LEO training, like me. And your remote cabin which is 90 miles from any 24/7 LEO help comes under siege or attack.....??? Hell lets make it today, NO SHTF event.

Please tell me Bill, exactly what I should do......Yes, I could call Alaska State Troopers, and if the road is open (Which is a big , BIG if ). In just over two hours they could be at the bottom of my mountain, and "Crap" they forgot to but a snow machine in the cruiser.

Help me out here Bill......will you please.

So Bill, lets pretend some people are outside my cabin right now........begging for help. Their truck went into the river, they are freezing (It is -7* at noon today) They are begging, no they stopped begging, and now they have taken my axe and are chopping down my door, Bill. So what if they are each wearing firearms and spare magazines on their belt.........OK, I will call the AK. State Troopers. They can come find my body Bill.

Sorry Bill, if they want help from me they have some choices, and one is to ensure my safety they can voluntarily but on Handcuffs if they want access to my nice warm cabin.

But, I really would appreciate you response to this. Thank You.

QUOTE=BillM;309420]The problem will be if the SHTF almost but not quite.

You handcuff someone and move them into a building or to an alternate location, you can be charged with false imprisonment and/or kidnaping .

You could handcuff someone and hold them for LE if you are making a citizen's arrest but you can only do that if you witness the felony.

You probably shouldn't get handcuffs if you are not a sworn LE officer.

It isn't illegal to have them but in many cases it is illegal to use them.

Private security in a store or a shopkeeper can use them to detain a shoplifter but just on a residential private property ?[/QUOTE]


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## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

I have a very VERY special request.................WOULD anyone of you please...PLEASE. Show me where in this thread I stated that I.......did you'all get that...???? That I...as in ME said that I would put handcuffs on anyone ever....yes EVER.

I never said that.....you'all made that'up.

My plan is """"IF"""" they want my help and access to my one room cabin they (THEY...Not Me....but they) can put on the handcuffs.

What seems to get missed is that I am spending my money on handcuffs, so that I can safely help other people.

This is unbelievable but I swear it is true. In the last 14 years I have had three different events of people showing up at my door who drove into the icy river, begging for help.


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## MsSage (Mar 3, 2012)

Sourdough I am only 40 miles from LEO BUT 99% of the time if they are called takes them atleast 3-4 hours to respond and thats after they go to the wrong place a time or two.
What do you do ? As for me I trust my heart and gut ......In other words I pray. 
If your looking for honest alternates to dealing with people good, but if your wanting justification in handcuffing and holding captive a women and her children let me tel you as one woman I might do alot of things for my children and take alot of abuse but TRUST me I will have the last laugh. Women never forget and will wait years for a reckoning. Dont believe me, ask a C/O in a womens prison. 
From all your posts I have read you come across hard and cold and want others to agree with your position. You have to do what you feel is right and be able to look your self in the mirror.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

MsSage said:


> Sourdough I am only 40 miles from LEO BUT 99% of the time if they are called takes them atleast 3-4 hours to respond and thats after they go to the wrong place a time or two.
> What do you do ? As for me I trust my heart and gut ......In other words I pray.
> If your looking for honest alternates to dealing with people good, but if your wanting justification in handcuffing and holding captive a women and her children let me tel you as one woman I might do alot of things for my children and take alot of abuse but TRUST me I will have the last laugh. Women never forget and will wait years for a reckoning. Dont believe me, ask a C/O in a womens prison.
> From all your posts I have read you come across hard and cold and want others to agree with your position. You have to do what you feel is right and be able to look your self in the mirror.


Amen, Sister!
:congrat::congrat::congrat:


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## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

Please respond to post #31 Thank you. Assuming that you can.



MsSage said:


> If your looking for honest alternates to dealing with people good, but if your wanting justification in handcuffing and holding captive a women and her children let me tel you as one woman I might do alot of things for my children and take alot of abuse but TRUST me I will have the last laugh. Women never forget and will wait years for a reckoning. Dont believe me, ask a C/O in a womens prison.
> 
> From all your posts I have read you come across hard and cold and want others to agree with your position. You have to do what you feel is right and be able to look your self in the mirror.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

So it would appear that the consensus is that if you want to have any kind of possibility of even a civil conversation with you uninvited visitors you can't be cuffing them. some kind of physical barrier between yourself and them in the beginning stages of contact that also provides you a way to separate them(if there are more than 1) and a physical barrier between their path of entry and possible sniping positions. One would expect that moonshiner alarm systems would be deployed in sensitive areas so that the path of "legal" entry was kind of obvious. Whether those from the city like it or not there is a code among rural people about trespass especially close to the homestead. if someone approaches from a sneaky angle where they have no valid reason to be that action becomes immediately suspect and that person in a post SHTF time would probably become a target. Just letting people do what ever they feel like is probably going to get someone killed or worse post SHTF. Before law made it's way west a few hundred years ago people did not kill each other just because they were in range why does every one think it will happen after things get worse


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

I have been in this house for over twenty years. In that time I had one experience where two people came into my home without knocking. I was immediately on guard and prepared to defend my home. It probably took me three seconds to assess the situation and determine that these people were no threat to me.

It turned out that they had become lost on the tundra for some time and were hypothermic and very scared. Why they chose my house I will never know. They had to drive their snow machine past other homes to get to mine. Once we knew what was going on we closed the door, got them warm liquids, and had them phone their families. This was a judgement call on my part that I am happy with. I have done very well trusting my gut in the past, I will continue to do so.

Part of this situation was cultural. In the eskimo culture it is normal to enter a home and stand quietly till you are acknowledged. I was unaware of this at the time and obviously it made no difference in my reaction. I don't see myself refusing assistance unless I have some really strong reasons. Having said that if I was living in a heavy traffic area I would send them along to the church as I can't feed every beggar that comes along.

If this has happened three times in the past it is likely to happen again. You were not attacked in the past so it is likely that you will not be threatened in similar situations. Caution is always appropriate but we need to remember that most people are honest. 

If you are worried about it you could always build a guest house. This way you could segregate your guests till you are able to get them to town. By locking your door you can get some sleep.


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## Cabowabo (Nov 6, 2012)

Hey Sourdough, do you have any experience using handcuffs?


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## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

NONE...........In point of fact I had never touched a pair of handcuffs till last week. 
why do you ask.....??? Are they complicated to operate.....???



Cabowabo said:


> Hey Sourdough, do you have any experience using handcuffs?


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Caribou said:


> I have been in this house for over twenty years. In that time I had one experience where two people came into my home without knocking. I was immediately on guard and prepared to defend my home. It probably took me three seconds to assess the situation and determine that these people were no threat to me.
> 
> It turned out that they had become lost on the tundra for some time and were hypothermic and very scared. Why they chose my house I will never know. They had to drive their snow machine past other homes to get to mine. Once we knew what was going on we closed the door, got them warm liquids, and had them phone their families. This was a judgement call on my part that I am happy with. I have done very well trusting my gut in the past, I will continue to do so.
> 
> ...


I like the segregation idea. Makes sense.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Calm Down a little*



Sourdough said:


> OK.....Bill...........I am guessing that the nearest LEO to Bowling Green, Kentucky is NOT 90 miles away.....would that be correct, Bill ???
> 
> So Bill what would YOU suggest that I do. I kind'a get the impression that you are one of those LEO who thinks only LEO's should have AR-15 type firearms....???
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

I am going to answer your questions.

I do not live in Bowling Green. I live in a rural county adjacent to Warren county.

I was a Deputy Sheriff but I believe that you are entitled to own any firearm you choose.

All the scenarios you postulated involving someone breaking into your dwelling or otherwise forcing entry thereunto, would merit a deadly force response.

I never said you could not have handcuffs but only warned you about the very specific circumstances where you , (as a civilian ), can legally restrain or detain someone. Police have more latitude in that they can make a misdemeanor arrest.

As for having someone volunteer to put them on, well you can do that but don't count on them to tell the truth latter .

They will lie and sue your butt off if they get a chance.

However , all that being said, you are a big boy and you can certinlly do what ever you want to do. :dunno:


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## MsSage (Mar 3, 2012)

yeah you did say you were going to handcuff or you implied since you asked about what were the best kind ...but since the thread has been removed I cant quote you directly ggeeee how convenient for YOU 
Have a nice day and bless your heart


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Complications*



Sourdough said:


> NONE...........In point of fact I had never touched a pair of handcuffs till last week.
> why do you ask.....??? Are they complicated to operate.....???


You can cut off circulation or cut someone if you don't use them correctly.

Officers regularly get in trouble for this or forgetting to double lock them.

They give you a false sense of security.

I have seen a lot of perp's who could get out of them faster than you could put them back on.

OHh and if you just get one cuff on before the fight starts , they make great improvised weapons for your assailant.

There is a lot more that you don't know !


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## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

Well, I can now see that I should Not do this handcuff idea. As I would not want anyone to have hurt wrists.

So that just leaves one safe choice now.......let people suffer and die outside of the cabin. At least they will have undamaged wrists. And I will avoid litigation. The Grizzly Bear sanitation department cleans the dead quickly here.



BillM said:


> You can cut off circulation or cut someone if you don't use them correctly.
> 
> Officers regularly get in trouble for this or forgetting to double lock them.
> 
> ...


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## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

Some how, I rather doubt that they are that complicated. I do have a degree in Mechanical Engineering from RIT (Rochester Institute of Technology).

I also served a 8,000 hour, 4 year apprenticeship to get my Journeyman Machinist papers. And in 1965 when I was tested, I ranked at 99.7 percentile for the highest mechanical aptitude for males in America.

I think I can figure it out.......:kiss:



BillM said:


> There is a lot more that you don't know !


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Sourdough said:


> Some how, I rather doubt that they are that complicated. I do have a degree in Mechanical Engineering from RIT (Rochester Institute of Technology).
> 
> I also served a 8,000 hour, 4 year apprenticeship to get my Journeyman Machinist papers.
> 
> I think I can figure it out.......:kiss:


Because a person's hands are used in breaking falls, being handcuffed introduces a significant risk of injury if the prisoner trips or stumbles, in addition to injuries sustained from overly tight handcuffs causing Handcuff Neuropathy. Police officers having custody of the person need to be ready to catch a stumbling prisoner. As soon as restraints go on, the officer has full liability. The risk of the prisoner losing balance is higher if the hands are handcuffed behind the back than if they are handcuffed in front..


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*If you*



Sourdough said:


> Some how, I rather doubt that they are that complicated. I do have a degree in Mechanical Engineering from RIT (Rochester Institute of Technology).
> 
> I also served a 8,000 hour, 4 year apprenticeship to get my Journeyman Machinist papers.
> 
> I think I can figure it out.......:kiss:


If you accidently get your self locked up in your new cuffs, just call the police .

They will be there to unlock em for you in about 90 minuets ! :laugh:


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## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

Wow......I am sure happy that my brain does NOT work like yours......:kiss:



MsSage said:


> or you implied since you asked about what were the best kind.....


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## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

Don't worry I have the instructions right here.

Only one step to single-lock.
Then one more step to Double-Lock

One step to Unlock-single
Then one step to unlock-double

And I would prefer my large bolt-cutters to calling the Police and interrupting donut time.



BillM said:


> If you accidently get your self locked up in your new cuffs, just call the police .
> 
> They will be there to unlock em for you in about 90 minuets ! :laugh:


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

I think we are done here ...


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