# Crashing airplanes & the importance of repetitive drills



## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

I have been in one airplane crash with a friend fellow guide-pilot (Not very bad). And I have had three (3) airplane crashes where I was driving the PA-18-150, also known as a Super Cub. People talk about practicing "Drills" over & over till they are automatic. 

The skill-sets that I have experienced this the most are Deep scuba diving, malfunctioning firearms, and Aircraft driving. It is an interesting thing to watch ones brain go from total calm-to stark raving terror-to auto implementing the drills one has practiced over & over & over.

It is as if ones body is taken over and runs on automatic.......doing the drills that save its life. The ability to suppress fear/terror and do the proper drill has saved my life many times whether at 117 deep dive and a regulator total malfunction or a totally unexpected plane crash......or a charging wounded Grizzly......it is all about practice, practice, practice, practice day after day practice. 

The life you save may be your own........Practice the drills.


----------



## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

Man, if you have had 3 plane crashes you had better give up flying. Also, there are no unexpected plane crashes. If you have the proper skills and attitude then you never need to practice you fantastic survival skills.


----------



## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

It is NOT the number of crashes that a Alaskan Bush Pilot has, it is if anyone gets hurt or dead. I am a commercial pilot, single engine & multi-engine land and sea plane rated, Instrument rated in both. I have never hurt anyone in my crashes. The "POINT" of the thread was redundant practicing. Any time you want to judge my flying skills, you just need to step into MY operating environment. Bring your BIG boy pants and large gonads, as we don't use runways.













Tweto said:


> Man, if you have had 3 plane crashes you had better give up flying. Also, there are no unexpected plane crashes. If you have the proper skills and attitude then you never need to practice you fantastic survival skills.


----------



## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

Three years as a commercial pilot in bush Alaska will get you a job almost anywhere. Rugged terrain, unpredictable weather, and unreliable assistance make Alaska a testing ground for pilots. When I was flying medivac I followed the lead of the pilots and dressed like I would want to dress if the plane crashed. When my father was the coroner he hiked into a plane wreck that had been missing for seven years. There are three known wrecks on the mountain above my home town that have never been found. The plane that senators Boggs and Begich went down in was never found even with all the resources of the State and the fancy military stuff and their impressive technology.

Practice is great and it has a crossover to other situations. The presence of mind that you develop is just as important no matter how you develop it. I am not a pilot but I was in one crash in a Cessna 185 that I had chartered. In the four to five minutes from the time we crashed to the time we bellied in I prepared and I was ready to open the door when we stopped sliding. My years of occasional hairy situations on the boats, and elsewhere, had prepared me for that day.


----------



## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Interesting set of pass times. Have you been trying to hit all the boxes on the life insurance application like I have?


----------



## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

Sometimes I'm reminded of an old Chinese curse. "May you live an in interesting times."


----------



## partdeux (Aug 3, 2011)

there are bold pilots, and there are old pilots, but there are no old bold pilots

I was at an airport having ridden in on a corporate slowtation II talking to the FBO, and he talked about a Lear that had landed at the airport. I'm looking down the runway and said "really"? Apparently he came in loaded, flew in below the ridge line, pulled up and landed on the numbers, left empty. As it turns out, the pilot pulled a couple of other stunts in his career, to the point where he smacked into the side of a mountain and killed himself and his co-pilot.

I've been away from the yoke for about 13 years... thinking about getting back into flying, however the expense, AND risk is making me think long and hard about it.


----------



## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

Sourdough said:


> It is NOT the number of crashes that a Alaskan Bush Pilot has, it is if anyone gets hurt or dead. I am a commercial pilot, single engine & multi-engine land and sea plane rated, Instrument rated in both. I have never hurt anyone in my crashes. The "POINT" of the thread was redundant practicing. Any time you want to judge my flying skills, you just need to step into MY operating environment. Bring your BIG boy pants and large gonads, as we don't use runways.


The only thing amazing to me is that some how you think landing a super cub with tundra tires requires some short of high skill level!

The point of the your posting was about crashing. I'm sorry even for a bush pilot 3 crashes is borderline bad. According to your post it doesn't matter how many accidents you have so 100 accidents would be OK!

BTW the video's leave a lot of questions. The first video was down loaded on to you tube 4 years ago and the tail number shown of the screen belongs to an RV-7, so ether the the tail number is wrong or that cub has been totaled and someone is using the number on another aircraft now. The guy that owns the RV-7 lives in Anchorage and has an ATP so that must not be you or you would have said that you also had an ATP.

The second video is of a different cub that was down loaded onto you tube 5 years ago.

You never said that you were flying ether of these so you could have just down loaded them off of you tube.

I have had several friends die in small plane crashes over the past 35 years and every one of them bragged about how great of a pilot they were. A few of them took family members, kids included to the grave with them. The strange part of this is you could see it coming. When I look around the airport and I see that same faces that I have for 30 years and they all have the same attitude about flying. Their desire to fly is because of some internal drive to fly and they don't care what anyone else thinks, they don't care about impressing other people or "showing off or bragging". In fact it's hard to even get them to talk about flying because it is who they are.

In that same time I have seen over 100 pilots come and go. A guy gets his license and starts bragging about his skill level and then the next thing you hear is that they had a minor accident or even a serious accident with injuries. Later when you see them again they give you a BS excuse like the wind came up or a mechanic screwed something up. It never their fault!

BTW nether of the cubs in the video's had the tail number on them which is a violation of CFR 45.23, 45.25, and 45.29. When you don't see a tail number then usually the aircraft and pilot of is suspect for illegal activities. Smart drug smugglers will put tail numbers on the tail with correct 12" (post 1981) heights but they will be from a similar aircraft. This is why the FAA requires that the aircraft serial number also be on the tail somewhere even if it is just written in permanent ink.


----------



## GaryS (Nov 15, 2011)

Sometimes instinctive actions based on drill don't work out so well.

At an air show in Paris in the early sixties, an American F-104 pilot was killed when he flamed out and had to eject at low altitude. Seems he learned the F-104 in an early model that ejected out the bottom of the aircraft, so they were taught to roll over before ejecting at low altitude. Unfortunately, he was in a later model equipped with an out-the-top ejection seat, and might have survived if he hadn't instinctively rolled over to eject.


----------



## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Sourdough said:


> It is NOT the number of crashes that a Alaskan Bush Pilot has, it is if anyone gets hurt or dead. I have never hurt anyone in my crashes. Any time you want to judge my flying skills, you just need to step into MY operating environment. Bring your BIG boy pants and large gonads, as we don't use runways.


This thread is insulting in so many ways to those of us who are responsible pilots. I am commercial MEL, SES and Instrument rated. I have never crashed an airplane, even though I have been in and out of many mountain strips in Montana, Wyoming and Idaho.

I am also good friends with people who have been bush flying in Alaska, some for over 40 years now and the LAST thing they ever want to talk about is the times they went wheels-up.

The smartest pilot isn't the one who thinks he can land on that 70 foot sandbar and possibly wreck his plane... the smartest one knows when to not do something stupid in the first place.


----------



## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

LincTex said:


> This thread is insulting in so many ways to those of us who are responsible pilots. I am commercial MEL, SES and Instrument rated. I have never crashed an airplane, even though I have been in and out of many mountain strips in Montana, Wyoming and Idaho.
> 
> I am also good friends with people who have been bush flying in Alaska, some for over 40 years now and the LAST thing they ever want to talk about is the times they went wheels-up.
> 
> The smartest pilot isn't the one who thinks he can land on that 70 foot sandbar and possibly wreck his plane... the smartest one knows when to not do something stupid in the first place.


Are you into scuba diving too? It's surprising how many people are into both flying and scuba.


----------



## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

My MOST destructive crash was the result of structural erosion that was NOT visible during preflight inspection. I was hired to ferry a PA-18-160 to a bush strip, everything was fine till after landing I pulled the stick full back to hold the tail down before applying brakes. 

Unknown to me was that the plane had been used for several years for herring spotting and landing in salt water and the tubing had suffered extensive erosion.

When the stick was pulled back to lower the tail wheel, the entire structure forward of the elevator broke, which resulted in the craft indexing 90 degrees and straight into the trees, alders, willows. 

This cub had 36" Racing slick wheels, which magnified the distance that the tail traveled from wheel landing to planting the rear wheel.

My point of the thread was to show how quick the Sh!t can hit the fan, then panic, followed by......Magnetos OFF, Fuel OFF, Get door OPEN, See if you have any broken body parts, run or crawl from crashed aircraft.


----------



## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

The last plane crash in my immediate vicinity was the one that came through the window on 9/11/01. None of my pilot training was immediately relevant.  

If your point was that SHTF when you least expect it, I agree. If you engage in flying, scuba, or other risky activities then the training point makes sense, but I guess we've all been struggling to understand what you're trying to get across.


----------



## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

That is because I am DUMBER than a Box of Rocks, totally INSANE, and poorly educated.

Sadly now days people want everything reduced to a quick bullet point simple statement. I come from the school of "Slow reflective Thinking"........where one may sit for days, weeks, months quietly meditating on just one question.

I should disclose that if I am totally stumped, I will often fine a nice tree, sit quietly, then ask the tree for an answer..........it is surprising how smart trees are, if one is open to their knowledge.



Geek999 said:


> but I guess we've all been struggling to understand what you're trying to get across.


----------



## camo2460 (Feb 10, 2013)

sourdough I got the point of your story, but I have been taught by Coyote teachers before, others have not, therefore methods have to be modified to how others learn and perceive information. BTW I've learned a great deal from trees also


----------



## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

:2thumb: Thanks.



camo2460 said:


> sourdough I got the point of your story, but I have been taught by Coyote teachers before, others have not, therefore methods have to be modified to how others learn and perceive information. BTW I've learned a great deal from trees also


----------



## Cast-Iron (Nov 8, 2013)

I am quite surprised at the number of experienced pilots on this forum. I worked a brief stint with the FAA in Alaska a few years back. It piqued my interest in general aviation, but I am not a pilot. I would describe myself as an aviation enthusiast. I figure I understand flight theory and navigation aids well enough to operate a small aircraft in an emergency. Hopefully improving my odds of making a survivable landing if the need ever arose.

I think Sourdough may have been referring to keeping your skillsets honed for the unexpected (which can easily happen in the Alaskan bush or downtown Manhattan). Understanding how your aircraft works and what its specific limitations are should be dedicated to every pilot's memory. Even then, good pilots (thousands of flight hours good) sometimes make fatal decisions. The crash of two 747's on the runway at Tenerife is but one such example. Sometimes things outside of the pilot's control cause catastrophic failure. The lack of required maintenance to the horizontal stabilizer jackscrew of Alaska Air 261, cost the lives of 52 people when the MD-80 nosedived into the pacific off of the California coast. 

When seconds can be the difference between life or death, those repetitions you practiced could save your life. I know a former fighter pilot, commercial jet pilot (Continental Airlines), and rotary wing pilot who has walked away from a few crashes himself. He lost sight in one eye a few years back, but I still wouldn't hesitate to fly with him if the need arose today. Lots of folks have crashed perfectly good aircraft and died in the process. I figure those who are still around to talk about it must either have a guardian angel or a great knack for aviation. Maybe both?


----------



## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Bullet points work with me. LOL


----------



## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Sourdough said:


> and landing in salt water and the tubing had suffered extensive erosion.


That 4130 tubing should be sealed and treated with linseed oil internally I.A.W. AC 65-15A.

The exterior of the tubing should have been painted with epoxy primer to protect it before being covered with new fabric. 
That aircraft was being maintained by a VERY $hitt.E mechanic.

Oh, Geek - - I am also an A&P of 23 years with an IA... but that's nothing.
My friend John Davis has almost as many ratings as John and Martha King do! (Hot Air Balloon instruction, Muti-Engine Sea, Helicopter instrument instructor, etc. etc.)


----------



## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

Maybe you need to spend more time smelling the flowers and talking to the trees. Hell your going to die anyway, why not skip the high speed data'input.......:kiss:



Geek999 said:


> Bullet points work with me. LOL


----------



## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Between flying, scuba diving, prepping, dodging airplanes and hurricanes, etc. Why would I want to slow down the data input?


----------



## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Between flying, scuba diving, prepping, dodging airplanes and hurricanes, etc. Why would I want to slow down the data input?


----------



## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

Sourdough, I have had ground school only. So I appreciate a good pilot like you, so it doesn't matter how many times one crashes. Look at Amelia Earhardt. She "cracked up" (crashed) every aircraft she has ever flown, including her last aircraft and her last flight. 

(She was also flying with a barely functioning alcoholic crew.)


----------



## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

Tweto said:


> Man, if you have had 3 plane crashes you had better give up flying. Also, there are no unexpected plane crashes. If you have the proper skills and attitude then you never need to practice you fantastic survival skills.


Tweto sourdough flies like Kennedys drive!! Time to start walking while you can buddy!!


----------



## partdeux (Aug 3, 2011)

mojo4 said:


> Tweto sourdough flies like Kennedys drive!! Time to start walking while you can buddy!!


Don't forget the Kennedy plane crash too.


----------



## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

VoorTrekker said:


> Sourdough, I have had ground school only. So I appreciate a good pilot like you, so it doesn't matter how many times one crashes. Look at Amelia Earhardt. She "cracked up" (crashed) every aircraft she has ever flown, including her last aircraft and her last flight.
> 
> (She was also flying with a barely functioning alcoholic crew.)


Amelia Earhart was never considered a great pilot by the aviation community. Amelia Earhart was driven to the attention of the public by the news media because she made good copy. A women in the age of the fight for women rights made her world news.

Her husband (a business arrangement) to George Putnam (a big wheel in the publishing world) was just there to finance and the write exclusive stories about her adventures. She originally did not want to make then around the world attempt but was coached into it by Putnam.

Her navigator (Fred Noonan) was said to best the best navigator of the times but was really the only navigator that would fly with her. He was drunk for most of the trip around the world and in the end caused the failure of the Pacific crossing by missing Howland Island.

The media can control the narrative and they can control the conclusion in any directions they want. It was not in their interest to portray her in any other light then as Lady Lindy the greatest pilot in the world.


----------



## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

I think there has been a lot of thread hi jacking going on here. 
When the OP starts a thread about reactive drills we should talk about the application of drills to different situations not complaining to him about his pilot skills


----------



## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

Sourdough, I'll fly with you anytime!


----------



## Outpost (Nov 26, 2012)

Sourdough said:


> It is NOT the number of crashes...


Hey, Sourdough!

I'm a *non-pilot*, if you will, and all I can say is that if you've been involved in 3 crashes and nobody died, *you're the man* I want at the yoke of whatever my ass is in when things get "exciting".

Folks tend to think of a "crash" as something that ends in a firey ball after dropping out of the sky like a piece of bird-shit from a few thousand feet. Hell, we had a judge here in Derry that pancaked his pontoon-plane into the canopy at the far end of the lake. They plucked it out of the trees with a crane and politely placed it back in the lake. It's probably only by virtue of the fact that he's a judge that nobody yanked his flying creds. Nobody got hurt, but yup, that certainly fell squarely into the category of a "CRASH"!

Again, coming from a non-pilot, I believe in the old saying "any landing you can walk away from is a good one".... and as far as I'm concerned, it's a *GREAT landing* if you can use the airplane again!

:2thumb:

Regards!


----------



## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

BlueZ said:


> I think there has been a lot of thread hi jacking going on here.
> When the OP starts a thread about reactive drills we should talk about the application of drills to different situations not complaining to him about his pilot skills


Sourdough has been an active participant in the thread. If we are off point I am sure he can get us back again.


----------



## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Outpost said:


> Again, coming from a non-pilot, I believe in the old saying "any landing you can walk away from is a good one".... and as far as I'm concerned, it's a _GREAT landing_ if you can use the airplane again!


Listen, I have done some stupid crap in my 18 years of flying, and I have never crashed (thank you, Lord) but I have known more people die in aircraft than I can even remember all of them... which really sucks. I can still see their faces, though.

IMHO.... Your statement only applies for emergency landings. Many emergency landings can be avoided with better pre-flight and in-flight panning, so a lot of those can be avoided as well.

*Taking unnecessary risks* that can (at the very best) leave you uninjured - - yet hundreds of miles from help - - makes for good bar stories, but is flat-out STUPID. If you don't have the ability AND the aptitude to drop a Super Cub in on a 70 foot sandbar, then *YOU* can't land there!! Find a better place to land, dang it!!

If you *do* attempt to land there and you "roll it up in a ball", there is NO good reason to praise you for your efforts. You need to go fly into places that suit your abilities. Crashing an airplane even once means you did NOT calculate the necessary risks involved and you paid for your misjudgement. These fall under "Pilot Error" which is a really nice way of saying the pilot had his head up his......

The "rusted-out-longerons" scenario is a little different because there can be hidden damage on an aircraft that you don't find until the part has been overstressed. This is not pilot error, but is DEFINITELY a mechanic F-up.

I know some good men who have died because some idiot signed off the junk heap as "airworthy" when it would be obvious to anyone who would have done an "actual" inspection on the aircraft that it clearly was NOT.


----------



## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

I think Sourdough was trying to make the point that repetitive drills and training have saved his butt 3 times. I'm glad he is alive despite that experience.


----------



## Cast-Iron (Nov 8, 2013)

I think flying in Alaska requires good pilots to often make some tough choices. If you haven't experienced it first hand, how can you legitimately criticize it? Many bush communities are only reachable by sled (seasonal) and aircraft (weather permitting). If you wait for perfect flying conditions, you may have to wait weeks for such a window of opportunity. There are a number of small airlines which shuttle people from the smaller "hubs" like Nome, Bettles, and Fairbanks to these outlying bush communities. These businesses will push the limits, within reason, to keep goods and people moving. Sometimes someone's survival depends upon such flights. These decisions involve factors that I am not qualified to second guess. I would only ask to be made aware of any extraordinary risk, so I could then choose whether or not I wanted to continue on with that particular flight.


----------



## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Cast-Iron said:


> These businesses will push the limits, within reason, to keep goods and people moving


You hit the nail on the head.



Cast-Iron said:


> Sometimes someone's survival depends upon such flights.


I will admit, there is the desire to see folks get their supplies, but sometimes they have to make do woithoiut - - That's the gamble of living there. Whether you put your butt on the line for them is your choice, just be prepared to suffer if you are wrong about making the round trip without a hitch.



Cast-Iron said:


> I would only ask to be made aware of any extraordinary risk, so I could then choose whether or not I wanted to continue on with that particular flight.


Again, you nailed it. 
You make the choice, you take the risk. Some folks make poor choices and take bad risks. <---- Some of them I have carried to the final resting place.

I think Sourdough was trying to exemplify those that have been in an emergency and made their way out of it OK. Good for those who have, but I have known old pilots and bold pilots, but most of the bold pilots don't live long enough to get old themselves.


----------



## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

PLEASE NOTE: This post has Nothing to do with this thread, it is posted for information only.

http://www.adn.com/2013/12/01/3207708/investigators-reach-site-of-fatal.html


----------



## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

Sourdough said:


> PLEASE NOTE: This post has Nothing to do with this thread, it is posted for information only.
> 
> http://www.adn.com/2013/12/01/3207708/investigators-reach-site-of-fatal.html


Actually, it does have something to do with this thread. For a couple years I ran the air ambulance that would have picked up these people.

At the time we chartered each flight and although I usually got the same pilots it was common to get a stand in pilot or even a different airline. I can tell you from first hand experience that medivac pilots tend to push the envelope. This is from a natural desire to be the hero. Someone is sick or injured and we were their hope.

I lectured each of my pilots that a dead pilot and medic could not save anyone, ever again. With some of them this training had to be repeated. In one case I told the pilot that he need not show up for another medivac flight. It is not just skills that have to be ingrained but attitudes as well.


----------



## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Caribou said:


> I can tell you from first hand experience that medivac pilots tend to push the envelope. This is from a natural desire to be the hero.


Yep.

My cousin got fired for refusing to fly an overweight Cessna 421 medivac flight. She was fired immediately, and the next pilot on line (Ted) hopped on board. You can read about that crash here (all 5 died):

http://www.oaoa.com/news/article_81b0733e-f9f0-5ef9-b436-1f1d6f34f51d.html

Posted: Monday, July 5, 2010 12:00 am
BY STAFF AND WIRE REPORTS

*ALPINE* An air ambulance crashed shortly after takeoff from a West Texas airport Sunday, killing all five people on board.

The crash happened about 12:15 a.m. about a mile east of Alpine-Casparis Municipal Airport, about 200 miles southeast of El Paso. The twin-engine Cessna 421 had just taken off for Midland International Airport in Midland, when it went down in an open area, according to the Federal Aviation Administration.

The aircraft was carrying a patient and her husband to Midland, the Texas Department of Public Safety said.

It identified the dead as 73-year-old patient Mary Folger, her 78-year-old husband, Guy Richard Folger, both of Midland; two flight nurses, 49-year-old Sharon Falkner of Fort Davis, and 42-year-old Tracy Chambers of Alpine; and 59-year-old pilot Ted Caffarel of Beaumont.

Caffarel was apparently trying to make an emergency landing when the plane hit a rut in the muddy field, overturned and burned, the DPS said.

The FAA listed the aircraft as registered to O'Hara Flying Service II LP of Amarillo. Company owner Denny O'Hara declined to comment to The Associated Press.

The National Transportation Safety Board will lead the investigation, FAA spokeswoman Elizabeth Corey said.

The crash is the first in West Texas of an air ambulance since March 21, 2004, when an air ambulance helicopter crash killed four people near Pyote and destroyed a Bell 407 helicopter.


----------

