# Is a folding shovel worth the weight?



## PS360

In an on foot bug out situation is it worth hauling a folding shovel?

It’s obviously a very useful tool (From digging out animals and tubers, making fire pits, making pit traps, making a dug out, etc etc.), but every oz is important, let alone the couple of lbs a folding shovel weighs.

What’s you guys’ opinion on it?


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## WinTheMindWinTheDay

PS360 said:


> In an on foot bug out situation is it worth hauling a folding shovel?
> 
> It's obviously a very useful tool (From digging out animals and tubers, making fire pits, making pit traps, making a dug out, etc etc.), but every oz is important, let alone the couple of lbs a folding shovel weighs.
> 
> What's you guys' opinion on it?


I think I would, yes. If I couldn't find a good alternative for the black, 3 piece folding shovel the Army issued to me, I would bring that one. It all depends though, where you will be headed. If you are staying in a pretty built up environment, I think perhaps you could acquire a shovel at some point, and use it until you didn't need it, alleviating the need for one of these shovels, or entrenching tools, E Tools, as we call them.


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## ZoomZoom

It's nice to have. It's also something you could leave behind at any point based on usage (or lack there of).
IIRC, the one I have has a hammer head and a couple other things making it more of a multi-tool to save weight.


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## BillM

*Folding shovel*



PS360 said:


> In an on foot bug out situation is it worth hauling a folding shovel?
> 
> It's obviously a very useful tool (From digging out animals and tubers, making fire pits, making pit traps, making a dug out, etc etc.), but every oz is important, let alone the couple of lbs a folding shovel weighs.
> 
> What's you guys' opinion on it?


Absolutly worth the weight.

In addition to digging, It is a chopping tool, and a close combat weapon.

It can be thrown to kill small game and used as a frying pan to cook it.

You can prize open a door with it or chop through one with it.

:soapbox1:


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## mosquitomountainman

My vote is "no." I carry a small garden trowel. My favorite one is made of plastic. I've never needed anything larger when back-packing. Now if you plan on serious shelter building or digging a shovel would be a good thing. Like Bill also said ... it can be used for other things. I've just never had a need for one.

Steve


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## oldvet

BillM said:


> Absolutly worth the weight.
> 
> In addition to digging, It is a chopping tool, and a close combat weapon.
> 
> It can be thrown to kill small game and used as a frying pan to cook it.
> 
> You can prize open a door with it or chop through one with it.
> 
> :soapbox1:


Absolutely agree! It can be an invaluable tool indeed. You can get smaller ones than the normal E-tool, Gerber makes a good one and there are lot of others out there on the market.

bczoom,
The one you have sounds very interesting, What is the brand name of it if you don't mind telling me?

oldvet


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## ZoomZoom

Oldvet - the one I have is this Gerber 
Amazon.com: Gerber 22-41578 Gorge Folding Shovel: Home Improvement

Looking at it, besides the hammer, it doesn't have multi-tool capabilities. I must be thinking of something else.

Reading the specs on this one, I can see why I did get it. Compact and light.


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## HozayBuck

*YES ! but get a real one..us military issue... real issue not some tinny look alike..*


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## Meerkat

Yes a shovel is worth its weight ,just find one that is light weight as possible.


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## kyhoti

HozayBuck is right on the money with that advice. I had a knock-off (which I thought was GI issue) that was packaged just like the real deal, right down to the U.S. stamps on the canvas cover. It was a real piece of dung. I broke it out this summer to take care of some weeds etc under a low-hanging tree; in 15 minutes, it was destroyed. I couldn't even close the durn thing when I gave up. That's what I get for not making sure it had the right pedigree!

But back to the point of worth: I don't carry a shovel in the field because of weight. I carry a steel garden trowel. Good for digging cat-holes, dakota fire pits and moving coals around on the fire for scientific cooking. If I am going "light and fast" (as mentioned by the OP), I will not be doing any serious digging. On foot and bugging out means that stuff is really thick to have made me leave my primary residence, as my plan is "bug-in first". I will be trying for serious miles in minimum days, carrying maximum gear to get me to point B. My pack will not contain long-term tools, as those are at point B. It will contain sufficient water, food, ammo and shelter to keep me alive until I am in a safe place. While the idea of a shovel as a field expedient weapon has been long tested and tried, if I am hand-to-hand with a frigging shovel, the end is close. But that's just my assessment based on my experience in the field.


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## UncleJoe

HozayBuck said:


> *YES ! but get a real one..us military issue... real issue not some tinny look alike..*


Yep. I have one attached to my bag and if I have to BO, it goes with me.


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## PS360

Thanks guys for your opinions.

And of course for the many uses of the shovel this must be the most creative The "Chinese military shovel video".


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## NaeKid

So, of course I had to Google the partnumber of that shovel and I find it on eBay for sale ...

Chinese Military Shovel Emergency Tools WJQ-308+Bags | eBay


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## Magus

PS360 said:


> In an on foot bug out situation is it worth hauling a folding shovel?
> 
> It's obviously a very useful tool (From digging out animals and tubers, making fire pits, making pit traps, making a dug out, etc etc.), but every oz is important, let alone the couple of lbs a folding shovel weighs.
> 
> What's you guys' opinion on it?


Its very useful as a weapon, properly sharpened I'd take one over a Machete.
But I've used one as a weapon before.no cop except in SanFagSisco will call you on it,keep it beside you on those long nights out.read the army FM on how to use it hand to hand, You'll get there.

P.S
IF you decide to sharpen it,blast it with some paint.


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## sailaway

I have an old one that was made for the U.S. Army, it is at my BOL. I found it at a garage sale for $5.00


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## oldvet

bczoom said:


> Oldvet - the one I have is this Gerber
> Amazon.com: Gerber 22-41578 Gorge Folding Shovel: Home Improvement
> 
> Looking at it, besides the hammer, it doesn't have multi-tool capabilities. I must be thinking of something else.
> 
> Reading the specs on this one, I can see why I did get it. Compact and light.


bczoom: Thank you Sir.
I went by our local Academy store and took a good look at the Gerber folder with the hammer head and I was very impressed. I just don't know how well it would hold up, what is your experience with it? Good buy or not?

oldvet


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## ZoomZoom

Can't say I've used it enough to give an honest real-life review. Because of the kids, most of our camping is "car camping" which doesn't get extreme enough to truly test the ruggedness of the item(s). I have no complaints but it has been light work. I like to check the reviews online so I can get the experience of others. I try to keep this one with my BOB due to its size and weight.

I have a couple of these Cold Steel shovels as well. They can take a beating...
http://www.amazon.com/Cold-Steel-Special-Forces-Hardwood/dp/B00169V99K/ref=pd_bxgy_sg_text_b


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## BillM

*Use as a weapon*

The entrenching shovel was and still is the prefered weapon to use in hand to hand combat. They were first used in trench warfare as close combat weapons during WWI. US special forces still train with it as a prefered close quarters weapon.


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## Turtle

Bczoom, I really like those cold steel/soviet-style shovels. A lot of the reviews, however, say that the handle breaks very easily. That doesn't really bother me, as I don't mind replacing it with a better handle. It seems to me that this would be the obvious answer, but nobody seems to have done it; how is it attached?


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## ZoomZoom

Turtle said:


> Bczoom, I really like those cold steel/soviet-style shovels. A lot of the reviews, however, say that the handle breaks very easily. That doesn't really bother me, as I don't mind replacing it with a better handle. It seems to me that this would be the obvious answer, but nobody seems to have done it; how is it attached?


Did a quick check and ... couldn't find any. Must be at the BOL. I'm hoping to go there tomorrow so I'll check it out and maybe take a pic if it's something worth detailing.


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## ZoomZoom

Turtle said:


> Bczoom, I really like those cold steel/soviet-style shovels. A lot of the reviews, however, say that the handle breaks very easily. That doesn't really bother me, as I don't mind replacing it with a better handle. It seems to me that this would be the obvious answer, but nobody seems to have done it; how is it attached?


It was at the BOL.

I don't use mine as a pry bar but wondering how people are breaking them.

I took some measurements of the wood. Where it attaches to the shovel head, it's 1.5" diameter. Exposed handle is only 9.5". Total wood length is 16". As for attachment, It's a taper with 2 large screws that go through the steel and wood.


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## Calebra

PS360 said:


> In an on foot bug out situation is it worth hauling a folding shovel?
> 
> It's obviously a very useful tool (From digging out animals and tubers, making fire pits, making pit traps, making a dug out, etc etc.), but every oz is important, let alone the couple of lbs a folding shovel weighs.
> 
> What's you guys' opinion on it?


I'd say so--soldiers hawled one on their backs in pretty much every war. But I would skip the folder--too fragile. Get a spetznaz knock off from cold steel and sharpen the adges. Can be used as a light axe.machette and a great self defence weapon. I woul also consider MARBLES FIREMAN SHOVEL MACHETE--it's a touch bigger and has a full tang.
P.S.--I am being johnny come lately here lol--seems people already mentioned cold steel.


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## VUnder

The folders are okay if you take the rivets out in the folding mechanism and drill the holes out bigger and use good bolts. I am impressed with the chinese folder, looks useful and hardy.


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## Irishjaeger

PS360 said:


> In an on foot bug out situation is it worth hauling a folding shovel?
> 
> It's obviously a very useful tool (From digging out animals and tubers, making fire pits, making pit traps, making a dug out, etc etc.), but every oz is important, let alone the couple of lbs a folding shovel weighs.
> 
> What's you guys' opinion on it?


I carried a E-tool for years...I now carry a garden trowel. Reasoning - Lighter weight.


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## VUnder

Irishjaeger said:


> I carried a E-tool for years...I now carry a garden trowel. Reasoning - Lighter weight.


If you had a small shovel with a full tang, and had the end and sides sharpened, that would be pretty good. That way you can use it to dig, and as a hatchet if needed. When I go metal detecting the military shovels are just a little too much to lug around. A flower shovel does just fine. All that stuff adds up after a while, and that pack gets heavier every minute you wear it.


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## JustCliff

I like my e-tools. We all have one for our BOB. They are very useful.


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## mosquitomountainman

Irishjaeger said:


> I carried a E-tool for years...I now carry a garden trowel. Reasoning - Lighter weight.


AMEN TO THAT ONE BROTHER! :2thumb:

You can get long handled trowels made for trappers also. They're light weight and more compact and work better than any E-tool I've ever used. Lets face it ... just what do you plan on needing one for anyway?

The key here is how much wieght do you want to carry? I'd rather skip the E-tool, use a trowel for digging, and carry more ammo or less weight altogether. I always have a hatchet for cutting anything my knife can't handle. (it's a very high-quality, light-weight hatchet ... if I didn't have it I'd have a Cold Steel Trail Hawk).

I'm not a fan of the "multi-purpose, works for everything" tools. Sure you can sharpen a shovel and put a saw blade on it and use it for a weapon, shovel, machete, axe, and saw but you have a poor substitute for all of these things.

I dont plan on doing a lot of digging in a buggout situation. If you plan on needing a "fighting hole" better think again. If you're outnumbered they'll simply flank you and shoot you from behind. You must stay mobile to survive. If you believe you'll face a lot of close combat then get a machete and carry more ammo to stay out of a close combat situation or carry less weight and move faster to avoid such conflict.

The key on carrying things is to keep the weight to a minimum. You can't fight or even think clearly if you're dog tired and thoroughly exhausted. Pare yourself down to the absolute minimum.

I get most of my exercise walking a trap line in winter and I learned right away that the less you carry the faster and easier you can go. Even using a sled for hauling things on the snow it paid to keep the weight down.

Get out with your buggout bag and go hiking/camping like you would if bugging out and learn for yourself what's essential and what isn't. My belief is that most people are going to be so overloaded with equipment that they may as well have stayed at home. They'll never make it over two miles walking with all that weight.


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## VUnder

What I would do is carry a hatchet with a spike on the back side. Dirt can be broken up with it, and my mess pan can move the dirt. The only digging I could forsee is maybe dig a sleeping pit if it is cold out. Even the frontier guys carried a hatchet, big knife, clasp knife, and a bedroll. If you have a poncho or plastic for a lean to shelter, those things will make it easier to happen.


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## ZoomZoom

Turtle said:


> Bczoom, I really like those cold steel/soviet-style shovels. A lot of the reviews, however, say that the handle breaks very easily. That doesn't really bother me, as I don't mind replacing it with a better handle. It seems to me that this would be the obvious answer, but nobody seems to have done it; how is it attached?


Turtle,

I've been watching the internet (mainly forums) about the handles breaking, and have found a few. In each case, it was because it was being used as a throwing weapon, but it hit the target handle first.


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## mosquitomountainman

VUnder said:


> What I would do is carry a hatchet with a spike on the back side. Dirt can be broken up with it, and my mess pan can move the dirt. The only digging I could forsee is maybe dig a sleeping pit if it is cold out. Even the frontier guys carried a hatchet, big knife, clasp knife, and a bedroll. If you have a poncho or plastic for a lean to shelter, those things will make it easier to happen.


This brings up some good points: First, what do you plan on digging? Second, in most mountain man or accounts of explorers and woodsmen of the past how aften is a shovel mentioned as part of the gear they carried?

If it isn't essential, why pack the extra weight?


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## VUnder

Them old mountain men probably used an old shoulder blade or something if they just had to dig. But, I imagine they used a sharp stick and their cook pot.


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## Irishjaeger

mosquitomountainman said:


> AMEN TO THAT ONE BROTHER! :2thumb:
> 
> You can get long handled trowels made for trappers also. They're light weight and more compact and work better than any E-tool I've ever used. Lets face it ... just what do you plan on needing one for anyway?
> 
> The key here is how much wieght do you want to carry? I'd rather skip the E-tool, use a trowel for digging, and carry more ammo or less weight altogether. I always have a hatchet for cutting anything my knife can't handle. (it's a very high-quality, light-weight hatchet ... if I didn't have it I'd have a Cold Steel Trail Hawk).
> 
> I'm not a fan of the "multi-purpose, works for everything" tools. Sure you can sharpen a shovel and put a saw blade on it and use it for a weapon, shovel, machete, axe, and saw but you have a poor substitute for all of these things.
> 
> I dont plan on doing a lot of digging in a buggout situation. If you plan on needing a "fighting hole" better think again. If you're outnumbered they'll simply flank you and shoot you from behind. You must stay mobile to survive. If you believe you'll face a lot of close combat then get a machete and carry more ammo to stay out of a close combat situation or carry less weight and move faster to avoid such conflict.
> 
> The key on carrying things is to keep the weight to a minimum. You can't fight or even think clearly if you're dog tired and thoroughly exhausted. Pare yourself down to the absolute minimum.
> 
> I get most of my exercise walking a trap line in winter and I learned right away that the less you carry the faster and easier you can go. Even using a sled for hauling things on the snow it paid to keep the weight down.
> 
> Get out with your buggout bag and go hiking/camping like you would if bugging out and learn for yourself what's essential and what isn't. My belief is that most people are going to be so overloaded with equipment that they may as well have stayed at home. They'll never make it over two miles walking with all that weight.


I've had A LOT of trial and error with my bag. It gets old humping 75-125# rucks over hills/mountains and streams REAL quick lol. I try and keep my ruck at right around 25-35lbs and I'm constantly trying to learn new skills that can either enable me to carry less, or more versitile equipment.

Back to the original subject - I carry a knife and tomahawk for cutting...why the heck would I wanna use a shovel? Lol


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## headhunter

I would agree for a 72 hr. bag it's too much weight. For an extended "camping trip", they're great. From digging a slit trench to moving hot coals around a Dutch oven. Useful for lifting that same Dutch oven off the fire to getting the ice out of the stream to get a bucket of water or digging a small pool so you can get a bucket of water. Being a bit older, we were at one point even taught to "trench" our tents. The shovel rides in the back of my wife's Jeep during the summer ( replaced by a somewhat larger snow shovel later in the year), along with a Hi-lift and a 3/4 axe. So. should we decide to explore a trail or two, I don't feel we may not be gettin' out of whatever. My folder has been in the family since the late 50s. It does need a shot of WD once a year and has a shovel and a small pick. I think the surplus store wanted to charge extra for the canvas cover. ( The wife was totally flipped out on a visit to CO to find out she could get a collectors license (?) for wildflowers and she had "her" shovel.)


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## mosquitomountainman

headhunter said:


> I would agree for a 72 hr. bag it's too much weight. For an extended "camping trip", they're great. From digging a slit trench to moving hot coals around a Dutch oven. Useful for lifting that same Dutch oven off the fire to getting the ice out of the stream to get a bucket of water or digging a small pool so you can get a bucket of water. Being a bit older, we were at one point even taught to "trench" our tents. The shovel rides in the back of my wife's Jeep during the summer ( replaced by a somewhat larger snow shovel later in the year), along with a Hi-lift and a 3/4 axe. So. should we decide to explore a trail or two, I don't feel we may not be gettin' out of whatever. My folder has been in the family since the late 50s. It does need a shot of WD once a year and has a shovel and a small pick. I think the surplus store wanted to charge extra for the canvas cover. ( The wife was totally flipped out on a visit to CO to find out she could get a collectors license (?) for wildflowers and she had "her" shovel.)


Couldn't argue your points here. The OP specified that it was an "on foot" bugout situation ... no time limit given. I'd have to give some serious consideration to carrying and e-tool on a back pack.


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## headhunter

Yeah, I guess i got off the thought a little. Thank you! Perhaps it would have been more appropriate to comment that as a Boy Scout a long time ago you carried your personal gear and the patrol gear was split up. The 7 to ? scouts took one saw, one axe, one hatchet, one set of cook gear, shovel, a tent for every two boys, and the food was split up too.


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## VUnder

Avoidance is the best way to survive a conflict without a scratch. Travel light and move fast, the way the American Indians did it. Have a place to go already established, and have your main things there. Just take enough with you to get there.


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## siafulinux

PS360 said:


> Thanks guys for your opinions.
> 
> And of course for the many uses of the shovel this must be the most creative The "Chinese military shovel video".
> Chinese Military Shovel WJQ-308 (HQ + Full length) - YouTube


Okay, I am about half way through this video and all I have to say is... that's one HELL of a shovel! And you probably could dig down to hell with it if you wanted.

LOVE multi-purpose tools like this. Just love it.


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## tac803

I have had a 1940's vintage US army folding shovel since the early 70's when I was a Boy Scout. It is somewhat heavy, and yes, sometimes gets in the way, but it's been worth it's weight in gold more than once. Sturdy enough to play a defensive role, keeping marauding raccoons and chipmunks at bay, and still able to dig a car out of a snowbank in the middle of winter. 

That's one tool that lives in my Jeep...I "don't leave home without it".


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## Claymore5150

If you go with a folding shovel, steer VERY clear of the cheap knock-offs.
I snapped the plastic rotating screw ring up near the blade on more than one.

The Gerber or a US issue E-tool will NOT fail in this spot.

I had to carry one for years, being light infantry. Decided to pick up a knock-off later in life and it was like throwing money down a rat-hole. Broke the first day.

I don't carry one these days, but I do carry something like a mini version of a folding spec-ops tool which has a folding pick on one side, mini shovel on the other and a screw-in extension handle that helps a lot for leverage. Can even screw in a broom handle if you wanted to, same thread pattern/size.

About 1/4 weight of a mil-spec e-tool, good functionality, VERY tough, doesn't take up too much space in the BOB.


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## VUnder

siafulinux said:


> Okay, I am about half way through this video and all I have to say is... that's one HELL of a shovel! And you probably could dig down to hell with it if you wanted.
> 
> LOVE multi-purpose tools like this. Just love it.


And whip everybody down there with it when you get there. I saw that video, that shovel is very multi-functional.


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## Claymore5150

Works good for a 130 lb fella.

I have a sneaking suspicion that some corn-fed beast of a kid from TX would break it into little bitty pieces in about 30 seconds....

Just long enough to use it to open his beer, take a sip, hand it to Joe-Bob, tie up a good knot, say, "watch this", and get all kinds of freaky Batman on the thing....

:dunno:


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## Jezcruzen

I have a wooden handled folding E. German shovel that I carry in the Suburban. 
Mostly, its for digging out a tire if I bury one while on the beach surf fishing. I think one of the boys used it to dig a hole in the sand to bury an umbrella pole once. Thats it.

On foot, I can't imagine toting along a shovel - folding or not. I don't think its likely I'll be engaged in hand-to-hand combat using a shovel, throwing it to kill animals, or cooking them using the shovel as a frying pan. Besides, some compact shovels have a few plastic parts making fire exposure a no-no. 

If I were built like Hercules, I can think of a lot of "nice to haves", but I'm not, and a shovel isn't on my list.


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## Redtail

THe shovel is a good thing to have, just like bolt-cutters and a prybar. 

However, all of those things are also heavy things to have, that are better suited to being placed in the trunk of my vehicle. 

I can do light digging with my Ka-Bar or use the point on my fence pliers to break soil in the same manner as the point on a hatchet, just a bit slower. 

I like to multirole my tools as much as possible. This way redundant functions can be achieved across dozens of functions carrying two or three multirole tools.


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## skiball

Is a folding shovel worth it’s weight? Yes… Definitely… Yes… Uncle Sam made me carry one on my ruck for years, and he always found a reason for me to use it. 
One not so known use for the E-Tool is when nature calls, and it even calls when we are bugging out or just in the woods. Dig your cat-hole fold the E-Tool in an L shape and rest yourself on it. It makes this fact of life much easier on soldier or civilian. 
A young private with much less field experience than me, his squad leader, taught me that. I have to admit, the American fighting man or woman is by far the most uniquely thinking group of people on this planet.
Have A Great Day... Skiball...


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## Possumfam

Saw the video, but I think I tend to be a skeptic. Always thinking someone's trying to pull the wool over my eyes. Do you suppose this REALLY is better than another shovel? You don't think this was a short infomercial? If I find myself in a river, I don't suppose I'll have a rubber dingy and a couple of shovels.


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## Norse

They do if you need a small shovel, but if you think you can dig a foxhole with one, better have a lot of time on your hands.


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## BillM

*The GI shovel*



Norse said:


> They do if you need a small shovel, but if you think you can dig a foxhole with one, better have a lot of time on your hands.


If someone is shooting at you the folding GI shovel converts quickly to a backhoe !


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## skiball

BillM said:


> If someone is shooting at you the folding GI shovel converts quickly to a backhoe !


I Love That Statement... Classic... 
B.T.W. - I have dug many Fighting Positions (Foxholes) with an E-Tool. If you can get hold of a bigger shovel, that's great, use it... When the US Military goes into a defensive position, every soldier in that defense must have a position to fight from, and every soldier, at least the infantry (Grunts) must dig in. Usually a 2 man fighting position, armpit deep to the tallest man. You use the tools you have, and not many grunts will be caring around a D-Handle shovel on his back. You dig with your E-Tool (Folding shovel). 
Sure, there are times when you have access to a real shovel sometimes-even access to engineers with backhoes. If not, you use what is available.


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## BillM

*My Dad*



skiball said:


> I Love That Statement... Classic...
> B.T.W. - I have dug many Fighting Positions (Foxholes) with an E-Tool. If you can get hold of a bigger shovel, that's great, use it... When the US Military goes into a defensive position, every soldier in that defense must have a position to fight from, and every soldier, at least the infantry (Grunts) must dig in. Usually a 2 man fighting position, armpit deep to the tallest man. You use the tools you have, and not many grunts will be caring around a D-Handle shovel on his back. You dig with your E-Tool (Folding shovel).
> Sure, there are times when you have access to a real shovel sometimes-even access to engineers with backhoes. If not, you use what is available.


My dad was a combat engineer during WWII.

He fought from D-Day through France Belgum and Germany.

In the Hurtigan forest, the tempature dropped to 15 below zero.

The ground was frozen solid.

This is how they dug a fox hole. They took their M1 and fired a clip straight into the ground.

Then they used their E tool to remove the loosened dirt.

Then they placed a 1/4 lb of TNT in the hole and covered it with the loosened dirt.

They lit the fuse and retreated fifty feet and hit the dirt.

After the charge went off they started digging with the E tool.

I thank God for how easy I have it every day !


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## Claymore5150

skiball said:


> One not so known use for the E-Tool is when nature calls, and it even calls when we are bugging out or just in the woods. Dig your cat-hole fold the E-Tool in an L shape and rest yourself on it. It makes this fact of life much easier on soldier or civilian.


Even better, borrow your buddy's and use it, too!

That way you have a double cheek rest position so that the one leg doesn't fall asleep (as those of us who have used the E-tool "procedure" know it has a tendency to do). haha.

Side note: sometimes it is easier to ask forgiveness than get permission to use your buddy's tool for this "procedure" as well. hahaha. :sssh:


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## cajunmeadows

Yes military issue if at all possible is the way to go. Like mentioned above. Digging , chopping . self defense.


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## TheAnt

cajunmeadows said:


> Yes military issue if at all possible is the way to go. Like mentioned above. Digging , chopping . self defense.


Shucks, a .45 with enough ammo can do all that!


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## dragon5126

cant believe the number of people who dont know how important a shovel is. I pack an E German E Tool ( type with the pick as well as shovel) First thing I did was remove the handle sand it and epoxy impregnate it... in short took and made a fixture out of a pipe that it fit in and put the handle in it and liquid type 2part epoxy. screwed the cap on and pressureized it to 150LBS forcing the epoxy into the wood... kept it cool to slow the curing, and removed the handle after half an hour and pulled the handle to allow air out of the pores, then warmed it a bit and repeated the pressurization and release a handfull of times, in short made it into pacca wood. ( yeah I like to play wit chit) and them took it out and let it cure and sanded it and painted it and put it back together. Theoretically it should be substantially stronger, it's definetly waterproof so it wont rot out if it doesnt get a chance to dry before being put away, which was my intention in doing this, as well as experimenting in making a new material for knife bolsters and pistol grips. If I had a better pressure chamber setup I probably could have jusr pressureized it much higher and let it cure in the chamber if it had a liner that the epoxy would stick to instead of the pipe...


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## headhunter

You may like to play with it; you may be full of it. That said , it was an interesting read. I like to whittle and I always wondered how some people managed to carve things so thin without them breaking I found that they treat the wood with super glue before it gets too thin. Thanks!


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## mosquitomountainman

I re-check this thread on occasions just to see what's been posted. Just out of curiosity, how many of you actually do any backpacking? The OP mentioned bugging out with what he had on his back. 

I carry either a hatchet, small axe, tomahawk, or a machete. I also carry a couple of knives. My digging utensil is a small trowel. IME, a sharpened shovel makes a very poor substitute for a hatchet/axe or even a machete for cutting or fighting. Since I do far more cutting than digging I'd rather use them. If you're planning on digging fortified positions while bugging out then dig them deep enough to bury your body in because you're going to die. Mobility is your best resource in a firefight. Maintain a static position and you will die.

You are not a military unit. You don't have the numbers, the firepower, or air and/or artillary support to hold a position. I'm assuming everyone in your group will be a friend or family member. Staying alive and unwounded is paramount. If you find yourself in a fight use a gun, get it over quick, and leave the area.

Multiple use tools, by definition try to fill many roles. They usually do them all poorly. For me, an e-tool is just extra weight better utilized for more food or ammo. (Or save on the weight and travel faster and farther.)

Seriously, do some, on-foot bugging out with fully loaded packs and see how many things you should have left at home. I have a feeling the shovel will be the first to go!

Cheers!


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## roym6015

I with oldvet and don't get a fold up one get a small camp shovel or something sturdy. The play on many fold ups are a waste of energy,and energy is important to me.It's a quick weapon and good for many other things having a cutting edge on the side could be really useful and can be made with a file. A good file is a good thing to have when the walmarts shut down and you need sharp things.


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## roym6015

I can't see using a garden shovel for anything more than a small hole.You must be a lot stronger than me because that seem like far too much work for a hole for your body. Your right a shovel with a sharp edge is a poor substitute for the proper tool,but it is an extra tool in the pack if you need it. I like my machete, it's not an ax,but it works when you need it.


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## ReconCraftTheta

I say yes. Obviously some are lighter then others, but they have their draw backs. 

On my kit I have a West German one from the 60's, a bit heavier, but its weight actually makes digging a bit easier imo. A lot of my friends have tri-folds which work just as well. Just make sure you pay for what you're getting. Stay away from crappy knock offs of mil-spec. The bend and break way to easily.


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## dragon5126

headhunter said:


> You may like to play with it; you may be full of it. That said , it was an interesting read. I like to whittle and I always wondered how some people managed to carve things so thin without them breaking I found that they treat the wood with super glue before it gets too thin. Thanks!


No problem, I'll try to return the insult some time... The problem with cyano acrylate's is they tend to get brittle themselves. Resins on the otherhand tend to stay plastic. The advantage with the cyano acrylate (stupid glue) is that it is thinned to be useable with acetone which penetrates wood very well. If you ever need to put a finish on Rosewood, the oiliest stuff in the world next to Obama's back, wipe it down with an acetone saturated cloth, and before it drys, superglue the surface. If you have a glass bottle and glass stopper like the OLD dram sized nitro bottles empty a tube of SG in it and thin with pure acetone. apply with a brush clean brush with acetone... Used to do it this way back in my gunsmithing days.


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## cqp33

I have an E-tool but carry a lightweight hatchet in my pack instead, if I need to dig I use it to break up the soil then use my hands to move what I have broke up. If I need a hatchet I am not using the side of a shovel head. If I need it for self defense, nuff said! Bottom line is use what you are comfortable with, carry the weight you can reasonably carry (pack your BOB and go on a 5 mile hike then tell me how important that 3 pound shovel is!). I do this regularly, pack my BOB and go on a 4-6 mile hike, keeps me in shape and every time I learn something about the gear in my pack!


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## bittersnuff

Shovels are nice for camping.... and digging out your car! Keep one in your car! Not your bob where you want to keep your energy.. you want your essentials in under 40 pounds! Seriously! 5 miles in some terrain when you need to get home! Your not gonna care about burying your shit.. (pardon my french) 

Note* terrain dependant in Alaska you may want that shovel for shelters..


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## nicklancaster

I take a folding shovel when I go camping. I've used it to make a latrine, to stoke a fire pit, chop branches... it's a great tool. When I'm not camping it's in the trunk of my car.


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## seanallen

I keep one in my BOB. Ive taken it on several long hikes now. Ive considered ditching it more than once. Havent reached that point, but can def understand. Been downsizing bag a little here n there. For a short time bugout probly wouldnt be needed, but.... 
Some ppl have a BOB as a get home bag. Some ppl have a BOB to get to a BOL, however far it may be. Some ppl have a BOB as a "Im never coming home/survivalist" bag. I have a BOL, but its just that: a location. 100% undeveloped. Lots of possibilities. Im gonna need all the gear i can tote to eke out an existence.


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## ENIGMA6

I'm not impressed with the current three piece US military folding design, but I rather like the German or comblock version with the wooden handle and a spike or pick on the opposite side from the shovel. They are a bit heavier than the current US folding shovel.


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## bigdadvrod

PS360 said:


> In an on foot bug out situation is it worth hauling a folding shovel?
> 
> It's obviously a very useful tool (From digging out animals and tubers, making fire pits, making pit traps, making a dug out, etc etc.), but every oz is important, let alone the couple of lbs a folding shovel weighs.
> 
> What's you guys' opinion on it?


I carried one or had one handy for over 20 years in Uncle Sams Camping Club....hell yes they're worth it....dig,scrape, chop, makes a fairly good inclose weapon too...I'd hate to get hit with the edge of one.


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## truecarnage

I vote yes, I think most all points on the subject have been covered, but I think the weight thing is important and I do hike with my pack and e-tool and its a choice that each will half to make on their own. I cut a lot of weight and continue to where I can but I still have that shovel.
Just my two cents


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## BillM

It can be used for digging , choping , cooking ,as a weapon, as a signal devise, and most of all as a portable latreen.

As a portable latreen, you dig a hole at the base of a tree, fold the handle down at a 90 degree angle, leaving the shovel blade straight and insert the blade in the ground with the handle pointing away from the tree but over the hole . Have a seat on the flat triangular handle and open up your reading material. Bada Bing Bada Boom !


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## monkeyflow0311

*Ps360*

ive used a gerber folding shovel and the are fantastic for expediant digging and chopping they can chop through small and medium sized roots and i would reccomenc buying one that has a serrated side on the spade. good luck!


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## readytogo

PS360 said:


> In an on foot bug out situation is it worth hauling a folding shovel?
> 
> It's obviously a very useful tool (From digging out animals and tubers, making fire pits, making pit traps, making a dug out, etc etc.), but every oz is important, let alone the couple of lbs a folding shovel weighs.
> 
> What's you guys' opinion on it?


Yes, make sure is a usgi one the Chinese make a good copy but crap, I used mine in rough camping trips great tool, on a military hardness will carry well in your belt with many other usgi hardware, including a colt .45 :2thumb:


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## Sparky_D

I've always been one of those guys who felt in necessary to have a shovel of some sort while away from civilization.

My first was an 70's era folding E-Tool from my dads service days. Next I picked up an old Com Bloc (possibly E German) folder, then the Cold Steel.

I still keep the Cold Steel in my truck, but my BOB now has this:

http://www.amazon.com/Ames-True-Temper-2500700-Planters/dp/B000SZN6T4/ref=pd_sim_sbs_lg_1

Compact, light weight, solid enough to dig latrine holes or trenches, the saw back is handy and effective, and the blade side will hold a utilitarian edge for a while.


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## headhunter

As a small rural land owner, i am not going to invite you for a drink of well water if ya dump wo diggin' a hole.


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## becky3086

I have a folding shovel in the back of the car, next to my bag. Have already used it a couple times though not in a survival situation, of course.


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## Mr_Practical

I carry one in my 72 hour bag. You won't be digging any trenches with it or use it as a weapon but it has come in handy enough for me to carry it.

It's about the size of small gloves and does quite well in rough soil.


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## Stryker

My e-tool is nice, used it at basic training to dig a fox hole, cut branches to cover the fox hole, and dig a hole to poop in too. It can also be used as a weapon either in self defense or hunting. I suggest a folding military e-tool you can probably get anywhere worth looking for one. More durable than the one you have it looks like.


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## skiball

I carried one for years in the infantry. Every soldier is issued one for good reasons. If by some strange reason while moving you begin taking fire and have no cover, you will wan to get behind something, namely your ruck or bob. In that situation alone having that e-tool attached and in front of your face is much better protection than not having it there. It may not completely stop a bullet but it will slow it down some before it penatrates the rest of your bag. 
Most other reasons to carry one have already been mentioned here. Mine is just one I haven't read yet. 
When it all boils down, it is up to you to decide weather or not to cary one. I cary one.......


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## HamiltonFelix

I think our definitions of "bugging out" vary greatly. If it's a 3 day solo "get home" mission, I'm not going to carry the extra weight of a shovel. I can do what's necessary with my large knife. If it's a longer slog, an e-tool becomes more important. I just hate to add weight to people who are already uncomfortable heading to the BOL on foot. In just about any group situation, at least one person should have an e-tool. 

Even my "least equipped" vehicle has at least one folding shovel. The other rigs, particularly in winter, have a full sized D-handle shovel and a full sized axe. But e-tool and hatchet is minimum for a vehicle. Also, small bolt cutters and usually some sort of saw. 

I like the Glock e-tool with the root saw, but it's not cheap. I like the Cold Steel shovel. I sharpened the edges then repainted it. If I ever ended up in a place where I couldn't carry my usual weapons (and I do not intend to), the Cold Steel shovel is a very innocuous appearing "improvised weapon." It is not an axe, but you can do light chopping with it if you need to. And yes, you can throw it. I'm not big on "throwing away" weapons or tools, but you can.


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## pakrat

I haven't found a folding one that I like. I do have one of the Cold Steel shovels. Doubles as a hatchet. With a little practice it's pretty easy to throw. There are several reviews on YouTube if you're interested.




Rob

"Let's roll."

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


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## Wikkador

pakrat said:


> I haven't found a folding one that I like. I do have one of the Cold Steel shovels. Doubles as a hatchet. With a little practice it's pretty easy to throw. There are several reviews on YouTube if you're interested.
> 
> Rob
> 
> "Let's roll."
> 
> ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


cold steel shovel is a must have! Darn good shovel for its size, I have one in each vehicle.


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## lanahi

I would not carry a shovel for BACKPACKING, it's way too heavy, even the lightest ones. A trowel is much better, or a digging knife like this:
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=digging+knives&qpvt=digging+knives&FORM=IGRE
Or take a digging stick that doubles as a walking stick. When I know it is slippery, either because of ice or slippery mud, I use a dandelion digger as a walking stick, one like this works perfectly:
http://www.amazon.com/Ames-True-Tem...d=1414808218&sr=8-4&keywords=dandelion+digger
I take my dog on walks with me, and the dandelion digger also does double duty in discouraging loose dogs from starting trouble. I never had to use it except for showing them the stick...they get the idea...but it could certainly cause some damage if I had to use it.

A shovel does not work well in digging holes in our mountain terrain. Our "soil" is mostly rock held together with a bit of dirt. The shovel is too wide to work around the rocks...a digging stick like the dandelion digger is not. Digging is tough with a dandelion digger, impossible with a shovel or even a digging fork. The best thing is some dynamite, lol!

Since I am a forager and would want to dig for edible roots, again the dandelion digger/walking stick serves that purpose better too.

This would not be easy to use digging some kind of trench, but it is still impossible with a shovel. Either way, one would have to re-figure a need to dig much at all in this kind of soil. You need to know the type of soil you'll have on the way before determining if you want to carry a shovel. I sure wouldn't.


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## Gians

lanahi said:


> I would not carry a shovel for BACKPACKING, it's way too heavy, even the lightest ones. A trowel is much better, or a digging knife like this:
> http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=digging+knives&qpvt=digging+knives&FORM=IGRE
> Or take a digging stick that doubles as a walking stick. When I know it is slippery, either because of ice or slippery mud, I use a dandelion digger as a walking stick, one like this works perfectly:
> http://www.amazon.com/Ames-True-Tem...d=1414808218&sr=8-4&keywords=dandelion+digger
> I take my dog on walks with me, and the dandelion digger also does double duty in discouraging loose dogs from starting trouble. I never had to use it except for showing them the stick...they get the idea...but it could certainly cause some damage if I had to use it.
> 
> A shovel does not work well in digging holes in our mountain terrain. Our "soil" is mostly rock held together with a bit of dirt. The shovel is too wide to work around the rocks...a digging stick like the dandelion digger is not. Digging is tough with a dandelion digger, impossible with a shovel or even a digging fork. The best thing is some dynamite, lol!
> 
> Since I am a forager and would want to dig for edible roots, again the dandelion digger/walking stick serves that purpose better too.
> 
> This would not be easy to use digging some kind of trench, but it is still impossible with a shovel. Either way, one would have to re-figure a need to dig much at all in this kind of soil. You need to know the type of soil you'll have on the way before determining if you want to carry a shovel. I sure wouldn't.


I started using my dandelion digger on short hikes this summer, son and I did some panning a few times and brought along his metal detector. It works fairly well on soil that isn't like a rock. I mainly brought it for stray dogs and whatever. It's just about the right size for me as a walking stick. The dandelions are safe, it's in the vehicle now.


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## lanahi

It has saved me a number of times when walking over rocks, in streams, or up a steep incline. It's also good for knocking down fruit from higher in a tree! Truly an all-purpose tool! I don't use it for digging dandelions either.


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## jamesjohnson

I have a shovel or folding shovel in all my vehicles including my RV. I have a military issue shovel attached to my BOB as well. As stated by others this is not only a tool but a weapon as well and I wouldn't leave home without it.


Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


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## readytogo

*Tools for the coming apocalypse.*

Mosquitomountainman is right on the money, every tool has a purpose and every purpose has a place and time, how often are you going to used that tool is one thing the other is can it be replace with something else, my US issue folding shovel is brand new I actually dug holes with a coffee can and my heavy Buck knife, and if you want to find out the need for it just strap it to your belt with all the other gadgets you think you may need and give it a go around town in a hot summer day and post the results later if you make it, I'm of the opinion, maybe because I have learn my lesson, that the less the better, many here mention all kinds of BOB tools for the coming apocalypse, and the best tool we all have is our brain, some of us use it many don`t.


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## headhunter

If traveling by vehicle there will be a shovel. A small steel scoop with D handle rides in the wife's Jeep come winter and a WWII folder during the spring ,summer, and early fall. 
My truck has a #2 round nose D handle in summer, spring, and early fall. For late fall and winter, a steel #2 grain shovel replaces the standard #2. The grain shovel has about double the capacity but still retains the rounded nose for hard packed snow.


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## dragon5126

A true grain shovel (scoop) has a broad square end so I'm not quite sure of what you are referencing, Ive used them for decades, so there is no question about what they are... http://www.wayfair.com/Jackson-Prof...=75693546300&gclid=CM3mtc-C7cECFaM7MgodKWoAWw


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## dragon5126

readytogo said:


> Mosquitomountainman is right on the money, every tool has a purpose and every purpose has a place and time, how often are you going to used that tool is one thing the other is can it be replace with something else, my US issue folding shovel is brand new I actually dug holes with a coffee can and my heavy Buck knife, and if you want to find out the need for it just strap it to your belt with all the other gadgets you think you may need and give it a go around town in a hot summer day and post the results later if you make it, I'm of the opinion, maybe because I have learn my lesson, that the less the better, many here mention all kinds of BOB tools for the coming apocalypse, and the best tool we all have is our brain, some of us use it many don`t.


A shovel in the vehicle, yes, heavy things get stuck. in camping gear fine, they even make them that are small enough for backpacking to trench your tent for run off or making a small fire pit BUT for a bob? depends where and when, if you are in the snowbelt and its late fall to late spring, yeah a small shovel is a wise tool (key word small) such as this one http://beprepared.com/4-in-1-mini-folding-shovel.html . but as you noted. you can only carry so much and it is dependent on the ability to carry the equipment you want vs what you NEED... Convenience has a high price, necessity how ever is priceless.


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## Tirediron

dragon5126 said:


> A true grain shovel (scoop) has a broad square end so I'm not quite sure of what you are referencing, Ive used them for decades, so there is no question about what they are... http://www.wayfair.com/Jackson-Prof...=75693546300&gclid=CM3mtc-C7cECFaM7MgodKWoAWw


Historically a grain scoop had a very short handle and a mid scoop handle, most were built in bushel or part bushel sizes to facilitate measure as you loaded.... , the shovel is exactly what you linked to in this area anyway. The grain scoop (the historical one) faded away and is hard to find examples of on the net, the loading variety anyway,

now that I got that out of my system the modern grain shovel is a really good way of shoveling snow. :2thumb:


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## dragon5126

NaeKid said:


> So, of course I had to Google the partnumber of that shovel and I find it on eBay for sale ...
> 
> Chinese Military Shovel Emergency Tools WJQ-308+Bags | eBay


To add to the point about sharpening it, take a drill or die grinder to it and serrate that edge to double its usefulness. Use a ruler or tape measure to mark off the serration spacing to about a half inch for consistent and practical use, and do it on the side OPPOSITE of the side you chisel sharpen it. This will make it easier to deal with roots and similar if you run into them. it also will help keep a sharp edge, as the interior of the serrations will be protected from most damage when digging, keeping the weapon aspect much more viable... and yes it's from experience.


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## dragon5126

VUnder said:


> The folders are okay if you take the rivets out in the folding mechanism and drill the holes out bigger and use good bolts. I am impressed with the chinese folder, looks useful and hardy.


red locktite the nuts on those bolts. The chopping action will make even blue locktited nuts loosen in short order. And repairing tools in an emergency situation isn't cool.


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## dragon5126

ZoomZoom said:


> Turtle,
> 
> I've been watching the internet (mainly forums) about the handles breaking, and have found a few. In each case, it was because it was being used as a throwing weapon, but it hit the target handle first.


years back, between periods of national economic growth, I used to work in a store that sold lawn and garden supplies. Ive seen a lot of broken shovel handles, most due to abuse. However, a large amount of them are the result of wood that is simply over dried in the kiln. If you are buying a wooden handle shovel for critical use strip the finish off the wood. Doesn't how, paint stripper sand it off, heat gun,,, then sand it smooth, and give it a few coats of linseed oil (not boiled, but "raw") to condition the wood and strengthen it then rub on a few coats of boiled linseed oil to seal the grain. The lacquers and other crap they use on wood handles do not allow the wood to breathe, and just like leather, destroys it in short order. Ironically this is why the soviet and Chinese military surplus shovels handles last the longest.


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## dragon5126

skiball said:


> I Love That Statement... Classic...
> B.T.W. - I have dug many Fighting Positions (Foxholes) with an E-Tool. If you can get hold of a bigger shovel, that's great, use it... When the US Military goes into a defensive position, every soldier in that defense must have a position to fight from, and every soldier, at least the infantry (Grunts) must dig in. Usually a 2 man fighting position, armpit deep to the tallest man. QUOTE]
> 
> That's a bitch when you are 6ft 7


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## dragon5126

headhunter said:


> You may like to play with it; you may be full of it. That said , it was an interesting read. I like to whittle and I always wondered how some people managed to carve things so thin without them breaking I found that they treat the wood with super glue before it gets too thin. Thanks!


Cyanoacrylate glues are extremely expensive when it gets to doing something this size. another trick is the traditional raw linseed oil method: hand rub a handful of coats of linseed oil into the wood to condition it and then follow with a couple coats of boiled linseed oil to seal it. this doesn't add strength, but keeps the wood from loosing strength.


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## dragon5126

Tirediron said:


> Historically a grain scoop had a very short handle and a mid scoop handle, most were built in bushel or part bushel sizes to facilitate measure as you loaded.... , the shovel is exactly what you linked to in this area anyway. The grain scoop (the historical one) faded away and is hard to find examples of on the net, the loading variety anyway,
> 
> now that I got that out of my system the modern grain shovel is a really good way of shoveling snow. :2thumb:


Ok now I'm following you, they have a different name for the scoop you referenced in these parts, but I cant recall it off the top of my head. My late father worked in a place that among other things ran a grain mill, and as a kid I used to spend part of my summers working with him. Something I found much better than the grain shovel for snow it the old coal shovel. Because of the nature of coal the shovel has deeper sides and is hardened, so ice is handled much easier. They are generally only found on farms and garage sales these days. Damn, it sucks getting older....


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## cantinawest

*Entrenching tool video*

Found this video showing a guy using his entrenching shovel (tool) for a number of uses that I had not imagined...

I think his may be genuine military issue since a lot of store brands could not hold up to some of the things he was using it for.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pv9e9eceyfhx8ne/The Ames E-tool Infomercial.wmv


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## kinda

nah.. cache REAL tools, full size and weight ones, bought at auctions or flea markets, at your BOL. or leave them in your vehicle. if you have to abandon your vehicle (very likely if it has 4 wheels) have some plastic sheeting to wrap around the tools and bury them, for later retreival. I just cut/shape a digging stick, with a bit of curve, almost as long as my arm.It can also be a throwing stick for foraging, as well as a baton for use with the knife, driving stakes and the like


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