# Gasoline is not what it used to be.



## Alrod75 (Jun 12, 2010)

Well folkes as some of you might already know that the gasoline has ethanol in it and we cant get away form that. 
So what does this mean? It maens that your chainsaws, generators and what ever you use that uses gas will get the carburetor screwed up from leaving it full of gas the alcahol eats or softens the rubber parts inside and the alcahol also draws moisture from the air and in turn makes water in the tanks. Instead of how the old gas would seperate water from the gas and you could drain it and be ok, now with this new gas you get three layers The oily gas part that really doesn't burn the watered down alcahol and then the water that the alcahol didn't absorb. It is called polarization. When this happens the gas is of no use for gas engines. So I recommend not leaving any gas in any of your small equipment and draining the carburetors. But if you use the equipment every day or so you will be ok. 
All gasoline should be stored in an air tight container to keep it from drawing in moisture. Just speeking from experience. Al


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## Alrod75 (Jun 12, 2010)

Ha, Guess I should have proof read this before posting..Sorry for the wrong spelling guys..have a good laugh i can take it


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## pawpaw (Dec 21, 2011)

Thankfully, in Florida there's a bill they expect to pass shortly which does away with the ethanol requirement in fuel sold here. The narrative of the bill outlines exactly what you've posted, & even goes on to state that ethanol costs more to produce than it sells for. The governor says he will sign it immediately.... Betcha thought it was a FEDERAL thang, huh?


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## Bigdog57 (Oct 9, 2008)

So, buy the non-ethanol gas for your small engine gear - I do. Got many gallons stored for my gennie, mower, weed whacker, etc. More expensive but beats the cost of repair..... 
Store both types of gas with the additive of your choice - Stabil Marine Formula works for me - I have used two-year old E10 gas with no problems in my 2005 computerized van and my carbed bike.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

The gas with ethanol also will burn hotter than pure gasoline. When used in lawn mowers, weed eaters and the like, you will notice the engine start miss and "pop and fart" when they get hot.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

You can separate out the ethanol by adding a little water to the fuel. I fill a drum with about 50 gallons of gas and add about 1 Tbsp of water before or after a cool night. Let it set a couple days.

Once it is separated, use a barrel pump with the stem set "high" so it doesn't suck off of the bottom. This gas is now free of ethanol and water. The stuff at the bottom (mostly ethanol) I mix 50/50 with new gas and dump in my 1991 Ford Ranger ... and for some reason it runs on it. Not great, but it doesn't stall out or anything.


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## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

To find ethanol free gas in your area, go to http://pure-gas.org/


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## TechAdmin (Oct 1, 2008)

Davarm said:


> The gas with ethanol also will burn hotter than pure gasoline. When used in lawn mowers, weed eaters and the like, you will notice the engine start miss and "pop and fart" when they get hot.


I was wondering about that.

It seems I notice a difference in my smaller engines but not in the car.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Austin said:


> It seems I notice a difference in my smaller engines but not in the car.


Most EFI cars can adapt a very wide range of fuel mixes - they will get horrible gas mileage, but still run pretty well (even if not "flex fuel"). My old Ranger will run on the nasty mix I dump in the tank without complaining too much.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

ethanol has less energy per volume and needs to run richer to provid the same power, A lean mixture runs hotter , if you have an older small engine that you can adjust the mixture on just turn the mixture screw out until it runs decent under load again, but it is prolly cheaper to buy pure gasoline or use LincTex's seperation method. the EPA is your friend:gaah:


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

ZoomZoom said:


> To find ethanol free gas in your area, go to http://pure-gas.org/


35 miles to our closest ethanol free station. Nearly an hour drive.


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## Jason (Jul 25, 2009)

None anywhere near me. I think the closest to you might be the closest to me as well, Joe, and we live better than 2 hours apart.


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

I think it's closer to 4hrs unless you're doing 90mph the whole way across the turnpike.


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## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

Jason said:


> None anywhere near me. I think the closest to you might be the closest to me as well, Joe, and we live better than 2 hours apart.


Jason - isn't the closest to you Purvis Bros. in Mars (about 30 miles N of Pitt)?


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

Due to the problems outboard motors, chainsaws, other small engines and classic car owners were having here in Oregon the state opened up the sale of non-alcohol fuel at bulk suppliers and some gas stations. It's in the $4+ per gallon range but with a loss of 4 to 6 mpg on using 10% ethanol fuel I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't equal out. In order for alcohol to burn thoroughly an engine needs to be of a higher compression ratio. One of the other problems of alcohol containing fuel is that it deteriorates neoprene hoses and gaskets this can be overcome by using nitrile hoses and gaskets.


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

Viking said:


> One of the other problems of alcohol containing fuel is that it deteriorates neoprene hoses and gaskets


That's a fact!!!

I have a lot of chainsaws and other small engine equipment. The small Stihl I use every day used to last 4-5 years. I now have to rebuild the carb within 2 years. Once that's done, it runs like new again. Some folks have told me ethanol is not the problem; it must be a problem with the manufacturer. Sorry, I don't buy it. I've been using Stihl saws for 30 years and it's only since the wide spread use of ethanol that this problem has developed. 
If it wasn't a 70 mile round trip, I would use use the ethanol-free gas for the small engines. It's just cheaper to spend $10 and an hour of my time to rebuild the carb. :surrender:


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## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

UncleJoe (and others).

Was any of your your Stihl equipment subject to the gas cap recall? I had a couple Stihl products that were recalled as the ethanol ate components of the gas cap. A quick fix of replacing the gas cap with a new version.


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

I didn't see anything about a recall and haven't had any trouble with the caps; except the one that cracked when I dropped it about 15' out of a tree.


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## Jason (Jul 25, 2009)

Zoomzoom, good catch on the station in Mars; I missed it. Still waayyy over an hour one way to get there. And I never heard about the Stihl cap recall. I have 2 MS290's which I love, but I hate those stupid caps. I wish they'd just thread in like the old ones.


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

Jason said:


> but I hate those stupid caps. I wish they'd just thread in like the old ones.


They used to annoy me as well but I've gotten use to them. If it doesn't want to snap down in place, lift the little handle up and keep twisting the cap back and forth till it lines up right. It usually only takes a couple times.


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## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

The reason they don't work is because the ethanol ate some components. Break down and get the new (free, due to recall) caps. They work like a charm (as they should)
Here's a link on the recall
http://www.stihlusa.com/recalls/recall_toolless_cap/

You just go to any Stihl dealer with your equipment (so they can get the serial #'s) and they hand you a new cap. My equipment didn't even leave the bed of my truck. In-and-out in about 3 minutes.


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

Thanks ZoomZoom. I'll have to look into that.


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

LincTex said:


> You can separate out the ethanol by adding a little water to the fuel. I fill a drum with about 50 gallons of gas and add about 1 Tbsp of water before or after a cool night. Let it set a couple days.
> 
> Once it is separated, use a barrel pump with the stem set "high" so it doesn't suck off of the bottom. This gas is now free of ethanol and water. The stuff at the bottom (mostly ethanol) I mix 50/50 with new gas and dump in my 1991 Ford Ranger ... and for some reason it runs on it. Not great, but it doesn't stall out or anything.


Sorry not true.
The advantage ( the only advantage) of ethanol added gas is it will keep your fuel lines drier as it will dissolve <some> addtional water in your fuel that may get in via condensation etc

The Ethanol that's put in your gas has been dried at some expense before mixing with the gasoline fraction to make the total mix work better.
Please do not add water to your gasoline thinking it will take the ethanol out:scratch


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

BlueZ said:


> Sorry not true.
> :scratch


BlueZ, you make that statement as if you know it to be true, but we know that you are not a scientist, so how do you know that.

"Ethanol is a drying agent that rapidly attracts/absorbs water 
Petroleum on the other hand is an oil based product that does not.
As a result phase separation occurs when .05% water is introduced to an ethanol Gasoline."

That's from a company that makes test supplies for gas stations. Now while they do not recommend using this gas because the phase separation also separates other additives from the Gas removing the main problem, i.e. the water and ethanol, as suggested would make it useable, longer lasting, pure Gas.

http://www.fuel-testers.com/expiration_of_ethanol_gas.html

And the same info from the EPA: "As an
example, at 60 degrees F, water can be absorbed by a blend of 90%
gasoline and 10% ethanol up to a content of 0.5 volume percent
before it will phase separate. This means that approximately 3.8
teaspoons of water can be dissolved per gallon of the fuel before
the water will begin to phase separate." http://epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

Aaargh

Sorry for stating it so brutally, but i gotta give you some tough love:

The phase separation mentioned in both articles means NOT that Ethanol separates out, but that the 10% Ethanol/gas mix has a limit on how much excess water it can absorb and this extra water (since it isn't absorbed!!) is the additional phase they speak of!!!!

you did not understand what the article wrote and neither did the guy I quoted, so if this is allowed ot stay on the board it may mislead well intentioned people trying to learn.

I know you are well intentioned probably a great guy and hold you no ill will, but please read such pubs carefully and if you don't understand them, ask someone, before jumping to conclusions

PS: in all fairness _some_ of the Ethanol will of course come out with the water.. so there is a kernel of truth to it.. but adding water will ruin the fuel! Before you added water the fuel wasn't satured with water.. if you add enough water to phase some of it out, you will will load the fuel to the saturation point with water.. that's _very _bad.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

I am still not a scientist but I do think I understood what I read fairly well. 


BlueZ said:


> Aaargh
> 
> Sorry for stating it so brutally, but i gotta give you some tough love:
> 
> The phase separation mentioned in both articles means NOT that Ethanol separates out, but that the 10% Ethanol/gas mix has a limit on how much excess water it can absorb and this extra water (since it isn't absorbed!!) is the additional phase they speak of!!!!


What is "phase separation"? 
If significant amounts of water are present in a fuel tank with gasoline that contains ethanol, the water will be drawn into the fuel until the saturation point is reached for the three-component mixture of water + gasoline + ethanol. Beyond this level of water, phase separation could cause *most of the ethanol and water* to separate from the bulk fuel and drop to the bottom of the tank, leaving gasoline with a significantly reduced level of ethanol in the upper phase.

http://www.enertechlabs.com/fuel_phase_separation_in_ethanol.htm

Blue my problem is this, the other guy has done it, and it works. If a significant amount of water remained in the fuel it wouldn't. But he says it does, so either you are saying he is a liar or the guy who has actually tried it knows what he is talking about.

Would I use that fuel in my brand new truck? NO! But if the SHTF and I might try it to extend the life of stored gas, because 6 months down the road, when my ethanol laced fuel is dead maybe, just maybe, I will get another 6 or 12 month out of the stuff I attempted to get the ethanol out of using this method.


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

Ok written this way it makes more sense what you guys are trying to accomplish, but here is the main issue:

The "going Bad" condition that Ethanol based fuel is more susceptible to, is to be saturated with water because the Ethanol, as we both know, is hydrroscopic.

So when you add water to the fuel..until it "phases out" you may have a triumph that you then pull out water on the bottom and with it some ethanol that makes the fuel more susceptible to containing a water fraction...
That's a pyrric victory though since in doing so, you will have created the exact condition this exercise is supposed to prevent ...you contaminated the remaining fuel to the point of water saturation.


Put another way: So you will have not extended the life of it but simply made good gasoline into gasoline ruined through saturation with water and is now already at the end of it's life.

I hope I explained it better this time 

PS: I am not calling the other guy a liar but simply a little misguided, though I must applaud him for trying diffferent things.
But buying stabilizers is a much better bet and will actually work and not create the condtion you are trying to prevent.
None of the links you showed say anything different from what I stated. they are simply talking about how much water ethanol can absorb before it saturates the gas...that's when the "phasing out" starts.
And it wont start any earlier.. so by going to the phasing out point you have already ruined the fuel..


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

BlueZ said:


> And it wont start any earlier.. so by going to the phasing out point you have already ruined the fuel..


:surrender:
Whether or not it would have any value as storage once you had removed most of the ethanol I don't know. What I do know is that you would have petroleum minus most of the ethanol.

I don't take issue with your observation that perhaps the fuel is "ruined" but with the idea doing this will not eliminate most of the ethanol.

Perhaps using something like hydroburn would result in restoring it to good usable fuel, yet still minus the ethanol. 




The issue is not simply storage but the very real negative effects of ethanol. Clearly we all know about Stab-ile but the issue is also the gunking effects of ethanol and the high burn temp that can ruin (particularly) the cheaper brands of equipment such as generators, chainsaws,etc.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

Of course the easiest solution would be to save the corn for the pop corn popper. It seems like you can get pure petrol at airfields...


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## dunappy (Nov 11, 2008)

Yep over 200 miles away for any non-ethanol gas. Don't think I'll be swinging into any of those any time soon.



ZoomZoom said:


> To find ethanol free gas in your area, go to http://pure-gas.org/


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

Other than the fact that most people are sheeple I'm rather surprised that people aren't screaming their heads off that their vehicles are not burning the ethanol efficiently. I know that I have lost ruffly five to eight mpg. With just a bit of crude figuring, if I paid 3.80 a gallon and I loose about 30% of my mpg due to unburned fuel then the actual cost per gallon is about $4.94 a gallon. Thankfully we are able to get non-alcohol fuel within 30 miles. I'm just hoping more people demand better quality fuel because as inflation increases it's all only going to get worse.


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## JoKing (Mar 11, 2012)

I'm not a scientist, but I saw one on T.V.
"Dry Gas" is made of alcohol, so it would seem that water is not a problem with ethanol. The air dryers for air tanks use pure alcohol. If you are having trouble with water in your fuel, it's either your gas station or your gas cap. An unpressurized fuel system will suck the humidity out of the air.

Lucas oil sells an ethanol treatment which treats 80 gallons for about $10. Now, their scientists say that varnishing, gumming, and knocking among other things, are the problems occurring with ethanol use.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

Alcohol has an affinity to water and that's why alcohol additives were often offered over the years. Especially in cold weather when water accumulation in fuel can be a problem. When I lived in Denver and drove my hot rod Fairlane I used to buy 94% isopropyl alcohol from the drugstore to add to the fuel tank, it seemed to help keep the carb icing problems to a minimum.


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## JoKing (Mar 11, 2012)

We had to use JP8 in our diesel equipment at times. I don't know if it was for lubrication or to keep the pistons inside of the engine, but we had to mix tranny fluid with the fuel. 

Watch out for "greener" low sulfur diesel fuel as well, unless they fixed it in the last couple of years. Even with an additive, it gelled up bad in the winter. We had to spend a lot of money on fuel filters and kerosene.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

JoKing said:


> We had to use JP8 in our diesel equipment at times. I don't know if it was for lubrication or to keep the pistons inside of the engine, but we had to mix tranny fluid with the fuel.
> 
> Watch out for "greener" low sulfur diesel fuel as well, unless they fixed it in the last couple of years. Even with an additive, it gelled up bad in the winter. We had to spend a lot of money on fuel filters and kerosene.


Oh yeah, that's the other issue I've had to deal with. I have a 1989 F250 diesel pickup and after a year of owning it I decided I didn't like the way the exhaust pipe from one side of the engine Teed into the main exhaust pipe so I took the truck into a very good muffler shop and told them I wanted a smooth Y installed because I figured it would increase efficiency of the engine and they told me it would be about 17% and that it would reduce back pressure from 7 lbs. down to 1 lb. and probably my fuel economy would also increase. Well it ran better but mileage stayed the same but I found out why when I happen to be in a local hardware store and the owner asked a truck driver who he knew, "How's that new low sulfur diesel working out in your truck?" at which a light bulb went on in my head when the driver mentioned he lost fuel mileage. It wasn't long after that that on the extended service I got with the truck I went through four injector pumps before telling the Ford service people I was right about problems with the low sulfur fuel causing O-ring deterioration. The last pump they installed has been working like a charm but I have been mixing Marvel Mystery oil or tranny oil in the fuel so the parts get proper lube. Didn't I say I hate the word "Green" and to think that it was my favorite color as a kid.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

Then there is the other diesel which I ran across in Colorado on our trip back from Kansas, temp there was up to 114 degrees. We pulled our motorhome into a rest stop on Vail Pass for the night and in the morning (after a frosty night) I started up the engine and did a walk around tire bump, the engine stopped and I asked my wife if she shut it off and she said no. Well it wouldn't restart, the fuel gauge said 1/2 full but when I bumped the bottom of the tank it sounded empty so I took our Samurai down to Frisco and bought a couple of diesel cans at Wal-Mart and stopped at a gas station and got some diesel, in the process of filling the cans I got a little on my fingers and it seemed to evaporate and when I smelled it it didn't smell like diesel. Well, come to find out it was dies-ahol. Anyway, come to find out I wasn't out of fuel, what happened was the cold night cause the fuel line to the filter/separator, which was mounted way too high to loosen and the fuel all went back to the tank. Tightened it all up re-primed the fuel lines and bled the air out of the injectors and everything ran great again. Thing is it was a reality check to me just to see how much fuel is being messed with, all in the name of "Greening". I'd venture to say this greening has cost truck and car owners millions of dollars and nothing is being said. I guess we've all become sheeple being lead to the slaughter house of the globalist PTB. Sorry SOB's, I won't go out with a whimper.


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