# Antibiotic usage



## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

If a person chooses to purchase antibiotics from a fish supply source, such as Amoxicillin and/or Keflex as an example, what doses used for various ailments? This would of course be for after TSHTF and lets say a wound of some sort. I guess I'm picturing a lot of wood-chopping accidents for some reason. So yur husband shows up at the door with blood on his pants. He's got a gash in his let and you just HAPPEN to have a suture kit. You stitch him up and then turn to the antibiotics to prevent him from dying from an infection. Which to use and how much? 
Any sources for dosing on the web? I've been looking and I'm not really finding anything helpful so far. Seems to me that if you're going to have meds on the shelf, you should have a basic ailment/dosing chart with them. Something like a laminated recipe card that says "sore throat - adult - 500mg 4 times daily for 5 days" or something similar. 
I totally get it that diagnosing and treating is dangerous if you're not an MD, but who is going to have that luxury after?


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## VUnder (Sep 1, 2011)

amoxicillin adult 500mg three times day, for seven days, break down to smaller than 500 at one time if it makes somebody sick. This is for treating an infection. When somebody shows up at the door with a cut, and you sew it up, it is not infected. Let their body try to fight it off first. Keflex go the same route. I happen to have somebody here in the house that knows what they are talking about. They have 1000mg pills, but don't give that much. Over 120 lbs, give adult dose. I am talking after things get bad. I will probably be the doctor around here. This is just a suggestion, this is not medical advice, I hold no responsibility, I didn't do it, it was like that when I got here....... I am sure some doctors will scoff at this. But, there is an old man down here that is good at growing things. He was a young guy overseas in WWII, and they made him sew a colonel's thumb back on, and it stayed. That guy is almost a hundred now, still grows a garden, saw him driving through town and go in the hardware store last week.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

Ok, I am not a doc and since I have a family full of EMTs, RNs, and MDs I have not focused too much on the medical side of things, so I can only pass on info from my medical team, it is second hand info so take it as such and by all means get some medical people of your own or at least a little training.

First thing you have got to understand is that the word anti-biotics is like the word fast food, it encompasses a whole gambit of drugs useful for a whole lot of different types of bacteria. ANTI-BIOTICS are not one size fits all types of ailments. For upper respiratory issues azithromicine may be the proper protocol whereas something like amoxicilian might be useless. ONLY BACTERIA respond to anti-biotics, thus there are a boat load of ailments that do not. THUS you really should either get a medical desk reference book and drug dictionary OR at least research each drug you have and its uses.

Also different doses are recommended for different issues and also based on the body mass of the patient--this is why the serious prepper MUST HAVE the books or an RN to really be prepared. Doing a little bit of research on your own you can figure out a handful of anti-biotics that will respond to the most common and most life-threatening infections. The Patriot nurse has a good video on basic anti-biotic preps: 




Also, most all antibiotics have some side effects up to and including death (allergic reactions) I supposed. The worse case senario is that you administer a drug that has no potential to help AND harms your patient in the process, thus wasting the drug and harming the person.

One final reason to be serious about knowing how to take the drugs is that if you don't take a full protocol, which today would mean ALL the antibiotics in the container the doc prescribes you most likely are killing most but not all the bacteria and TEACHING the remaining bacteria resistance to that drug. If all you have is amoxicillan then you definitely don't want to go around creating drug resistant strains--note enough of them already exist because of people misusing their drugs.

*NB not using a portion of your prescription when you are sick is a STUPID way to prep. *

Anyway WIKI has a chart of drugs, their common uses, and their common side effects: List of antibiotics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For an infection by infection protocol take a look at drugs.com. JUST REMEMBER the net may not always be available so if this is all you have as a reference make sure you print it out!

Here are the ones I keep on hand:
Amoxicillin Dosage - Drugs.com
Azithromycin Dosage - Drugs.com
Ciprofloxacin Dosage - Drugs.com
Ampicillin Dosage - Drugs.com
Metronidazole Dosage - Drugs.com 
Doxycycline Dosage - Drugs.com


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## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

I am also aware of the broad rage of antibiotics and that each infection 'type' if you will, responds differently to different meds. Since I doubt most people will have a microscope to examine swabs, or know what they're looking for if they did, I think it's at lease prudent to have a few, easily obtained and affordable antibiotics on hand. I agree that you have to learn as much as possible. 
I think people will have to wrap their heads around the concept of "death from paper cut" after TSHTF.

P.S. Are you concerned with the storage life of the Doxycycline? My understanding is that any in the 'cycline" family becomes toxic after the expiration date.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

If you're going to store any medications, there's a lot of knowledge that needs to go with that. You need to know dosage amounts for various ages, sizes, conditions as well as how to calculate those doses. For example, if you have 325mg pills & need to give 100mg or 500mg, how are you going to achieve that? You need to know the potential side effects of that medication & have the knowledge to diagnose those side effects as well as the knowledge & supplies necessary to treat them. You need to be able to accurately diagnose the conditions for which your stored medications treat as well as know when the body has done all it can do to restore health & medication is necessary. Just because someone has a cut doesn't mean an antibiotic is needed. Remember, medications will be in short supply & will have to be used sparingly. You also need to know what happens to each of those medications once they reach their expiration date, some are fine to use, some get weaker, but some will kill you. IMO, everyone should have a drug information book of some sort such as a nursing drug book, they can be had for under $5 used on Amazon. Even if you don't store many medications, you never know what supplies you'll be able to scavenge or trade for. 

Just as important as knowledge about medications is knowing how to prevent illness altogether as well as prevent it from getting worse. Knowing how to treat a wound initially (you don't always sew it closed) can make all the difference as to whether that wound is a minor inconvience or a cause of death. Sanitation will be a major issue & having the supplies to keep food, wounds, etc. clean will be vital. You can't have enough bleach, vinegar, alcohol, salt, exam gloves, etc.


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## goshengirl (Dec 18, 2010)

Great thread - thanks for the info!

As for the books/reference materials, are there any specific titles that are recommended?

Also, is anyone familiar with this book: http://www.amazon.com/Herbal-Antibiotics-Alternatives-Drug-Resistant-Medicinal/dp/1580171486/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1325175022&sr=8-1 ("Herbal Antibiotics" - an herbal medicine reference) I'm considering getting this, but wish I could see it before ordering it.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

*Better living through modern pharmicology*



lazydaisy67 said:


> Since I doubt most people will have a microscope to examine swabs, or know what they're looking for if they did, I think it's at lease prudent to have a few, easily obtained and affordable antibiotics on hand.


You don't need a microscope to realize that you use one drug for sepsis and another for upper respiratory and another for anthrax. You just need to know which drugs go with which symptoms. And a little bit of luck... 



lazydaisy67 said:


> P.S. Are you concerned with the storage life of the Doxycycline? My understanding is that any in the 'cycline" family becomes toxic after the expiration date.


In my situation no I am not. As I said I have a doc on hand who can write me a legal script every couple years, and my job takes me abroad where I can buy drugs without a script, SO I rotate without much trouble.

I wanted to point out, but am not sure where I saw it, on one of the blogs there was a link to a doc who started up a SHTF meds business. Basically he will interview you by phone, get your history, review potential uses should the SHTF and then send you the drugs with instructions for emergency use only. The cost is just a few dollars more than for fish drugs.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

You are right though Tetracycline and its family of drugs including Doxycycline can cause hepatotoxicity if used after the expiration dates. I keep it because I understand it to be the drug of choice against Lyme disease, a serious concern in my area, as well as its uses against anthrax and bubonic plague less likely but possible weaponized agents that could be used by states or terrorists.


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## CVORNurse (Oct 19, 2008)

I recommend EVERYONE have a drug book on hand. As a nurse, I update my nursing drug book every couple of years. It has drugs by generic or name brand, along with what they are commonly used for, correct dosages, side effects and things to look out for in the way of interactions with other drugs or food/drinks. The PDR (Physician's Desk Reference) is also available. You can get either of these off of Amazon. 

We all owe it to ourselves to take an active role in our health. Don't just trust the doctor to tell you what the drug is for, or the nurse to tell you what not to eat when you are taking something. What if one of them is having a bad day and forgets to tell you something important?


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## AlabamaGal (Dec 27, 2011)

I'm going to guess that fish medications are not help to the same standards of purity and accuracy as human meds, or even those for cats & dogs. A minor inaccuracy in dosing at fish size could compound and be a major inaccuracy in a 150 pound human. Something designed for laboratory and zoo use would be better, but I don't know that would be any easier to get than human drugs.

Given that uncertainty and the ones others have mentioned, I think a lot of focus on infection prevention is called for when it comes to wounds.


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## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

Don't take this the wrong way, but I'd rather try to do as much research and have some meds on hand that could save a life than to say, "gee, sorry I can't give you anything for that festering, puss-filled wound cause only a "real" doctor could do that." I guess in my mind, with all the horror that could/will be around us, anything at all would be better than doing nothing. COULD people die from an irresponsible or uninformed person handing out outdated antibiotics, or trying to treat/diagnose without any training? Sure, it will happen. But then again, will the doctors have the tools/meds to treat anybody in the hospitals? There won't be any MRI's, no CAT scans, no EEG, no EKG, no lab work etc. etc. All the things that an MD currently relies on for an accurate diagnosis and the correct medication. Once power goes off, that's it. They pretty much go home and try to take care of their own families. We're on our own, folks.


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## TommyJefferson (May 12, 2010)

Good info thread. Thanks!


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

lazydaisy67 said:


> I guess in my mind, with all the horror that could/will be around us, anything at all would be better than doing nothing. COULD people die from an irresponsible or uninformed person handing out outdated antibiotics, or trying to treat/diagnose without any training? Sure, it will happen. .


And even more will die because people won't know what to do.

Even worse, some will die because people were afraid to try.

I'd learn all I could, stock what I can, and do my best when TSHTF. We have a son-in-law that decided to give the fish antibiotics a try when he got a dental infection. Like he said, he wanted to try it now, while there was still medical back-up in case something went wrong or the antibiotic didn't work.

It did work, and I don't know if he'd do that again, at least until TSHTF! We've done similar things here at home, testing out home remedies, herbs and such, knowing that we have the medical community for back-up right now. Risky, I know, but I'd rather get some of the learning curve out of the way now, when our lives don't depend on it. And speaking of which, nothing we've treated at home was what we considered 'life threatening', though I'm sure the potential could be there.

LazyDaisy, I think you're very responsible to be looking into these things and getting educated about it. :congrat:


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## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

When I first read on here about fish antibiotics I thought people were talking about some sort of powder like you'd sprinkle on top of the water! :scratch As I've looked into it I've found that Amoxicillin, as an example is not only the same chemical make-up of the human meds but the EXACT same pill!! They are sold at a fraction of the cost even at Walmart! Pricing it out I found that it's approx $2.50 per pill at the pharmacy as compared with .15 per pill at the fish store!  I guess based on that I pretty much feel like it's safe as long as I research as much as I can about uses and dosages. I haven't gotten any books yet....waiting for tax return money to make quite a few book purchases along with some of the more expensive things on my lists. 
I'm also concerned with this having read the stories written by the guy from Bosnia, Selco, I believe was his name. He says in his blogs that having medicines was like having gold.


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## CVORNurse (Oct 19, 2008)

lazydaisy67 said:


> When I first read on here about fish antibiotics I thought people were talking about some sort of powder like you'd sprinkle on top of the water! :scratch As I've looked into it I've found that Amoxicillin, as an example is not only the same chemical make-up of the human meds but the EXACT same pill!! They are sold at a fraction of the cost even at Walmart! Pricing it out I found that it's approx $2.50 per pill at the pharmacy as compared with .15 per pill at the fish store!  I guess based on that I pretty much feel like it's safe as long as I research as much as I can about uses and dosages. I haven't gotten any books yet....waiting for tax return money to make quite a few book purchases along with some of the more expensive things on my lists.
> I'm also concerned with this having read the stories written by the guy from Bosnia, Selco, I believe was his name. He says in his blogs that having medicines was like having gold.


I have read up myself, and have some metronidazole to try for a chronic problem I have that some of you females may be familiar with. I figure, like Sue, that this is a relatively low risk way to try it out.

You are doing good, reading all you can and learning before just jumping in and doing something without knowing about it. I have bought a few books on self reliance and food preservation, most everything else I pick up on the internet. If you haven't gotten it yet, get a subscription to Backwoods Home Magazine, it is worth the money in my opinion.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

goshengirl said:


> Great thread - thanks for the info!
> 
> As for the books/reference materials, are there any specific titles that are recommended?


I like Mosby's Drug Guide or Lippincott's Drug Handbook. Also, "The Pill Book" is pretty good for non-medical folks & is less than $10 at Walmart (usually by the pharmacy). All three, I think, are updated yearly so they are all plentiful on the used market.


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## goshengirl (Dec 18, 2010)

tsrwivey said:


> I like Mosby's Drug Guide or Lippincott's Drug Handbook. Also, "The Pill Book" is pretty good for non-medical folks & is less than $10 at Walmart (usually by the pharmacy). All three, I think, are updated yearly so they are all plentiful on the used market.


Thanks! Exactly the info I was hoping for. I've heard of/seen The Pill Book, but not the other two (and have no idea what's good and not good). Then again, I haven't looked into this sort of thing before, either. But it's definitely something I need to add to my reference materials.


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## prairie (Jun 11, 2011)

lazydaisy67 said:


> I am also aware of the broad rage of antibiotics and that each infection 'type' if you will, responds differently to different meds. Since I doubt most people will have a microscope to examine swabs, or know what they're looking for if they did, I think it's at lease prudent to have a few, easily obtained and affordable antibiotics on hand. I agree that you have to learn as much as possible.
> I think people will have to wrap their heads around the concept of "death from paper cut" after TSHTF.
> 
> P.S. *Are you concerned with the storage life of the Doxycycline? My understanding is that any in the 'cycline" family becomes toxic after the expiration date*.


I just received my fish antibiotics in the mail today. The exp. date on my doxycycline is July of 2014. Updating that particular med every 2 1/2 years is a small price to pay imho.

I feel I have done sufficient research on the other fish antibiotics I purchased that they are fine for at least 5 years past their exp. dates. I am also adequately convinced that what I have purchased is pharmaceutical grade. Here is Dr. Koelker's link to her download to determine if a fish antibiotics is pharmaceutical grade.

The only antibiotic I wish I could buy that's not available in fish antibiotics is Zithromax. That is a good med and the drs. in my area tend to prescribe it often.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

prairie said:


> I just received my fish antibiotics in the mail today. The exp. date on my doxycycline is July of 2014. Updating that particular med every 2 1/2 years is a small price to pay imho.


You could go one step better and order more about halfway to the expiration date on what you just got. That way if the SHTF you'll have a suppy that'll extend farther. What if you waited until a month or two before that batch expired and the SHTF while you waited for it to arrive?

Good job, though, ordering them and having them on hand now!


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## goatlady (Nov 7, 2011)

If you vacuum pack those bottles of antibiotics and toss them in the freezer, that effectively stops the clock for them and they will store safely that way for many years. It has been found that the expiration dates really do not have any bearing on the effeciveness or safety of the antibiotic, it is a government mandate and a good deal for the pharmaceutical companies in that it ensures continued sales.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

goatlady said:


> It has been found that the expiration dates really do not have any bearing on the effeciveness or safety of the antibiotic, it is a government mandate and a good deal for the pharmaceutical companies in that it ensures continued sales.


Found by whom? Let's look at this logically, just based on common sense facts. Most of the time when an antibiotic is purchased, it's used immediately. We are all preppers here who store up all sorts of necessities & there's not that many of US who store antibiotics. In the grand scheme of what the pharm company makes it's money on, preppers using expired meds is not even close to being on the radar screen. Contrary to what most people think & what would seem like good sense, there are not vast stores of antibiotics (or any other med for that matter) sitting around in warehouses or store rooms anywhere. A simple google search will give you countless examples of instances where a medication was completely unavailable because of a glitch in manufacturing or an increase in demand. Two recent examples are a cancer drug & an ingredient needed for TPN (IV food), both life sustaining medications. There is no money to be made on any significant stores of antibiotics being discarded because they have exceeded their expiration date. I will say it again, SOME antibiotics become toxic after their expiration date. They will cause your kidneys to fail, NOT the way I would choose to go & definately not something I would want to cause to happen to a loved one because I gave them an expired antibiotic.


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## CVORNurse (Oct 19, 2008)

Here is a link to part 2 of an article posted on Survival Blog by a physician talking about expiration dates and using medications beyond the expiration date. She cites a study by the federal government, and basically all antibiotics tested were good for a minimum of one year beyond the expiration date, some for even longer. There is a chart showing the different antibiotics tested. Please everyone interested, read her article and decide for yourself.

Expired Medications - Are They Safe? Are They Effective? - Part 2 | Armageddon Medicine

here is a direct quote from her article:


> The Medical Letter, a respected professional newsletter, addressed the topic of expired medications in both 1996 and 2002. Regarding safety, they say: "The only report of human toxicity that may have been caused by chemical or physical degradation of a pharmaceutical product is renal tubular damage that was associated with use of degraded tetracycline. . . *Current tetracycline preparations have been reformulated with different fillers to minimize degradation and are unlikely to have this effect.*" (The Medical Letter, Vol. 44, Issue 1142, October 28, 2002.)


And for anyone that hasn't already found this site, Armageddon Medicine is a very good site to expand your medical knowledge


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## goatlady (Nov 7, 2011)

Also the US Army did an extensive study of antibiotics carried in their field medical kits that were being stored in an ordinary warehouse with NO climate control at all. Some if not many of thes kits had been in storage 10 years and the ARMY medical testing found that 90% of the antibiotics in those 10-year-old kits WERE still effective with NO negative side effects.

http://www.terrierman.com/antibiotics-WSJ.htm

AND if you are familiar at all with CDC policy you WILL find there are warehouses stocked with lots of antibiotics in various areas of o ur country, bought by the government, stored under CDC guidelines and requirements to be used for pandemic outbreaks and in national emergencies which require lots of antibiotics. Again, stored in ordinary warehouses, ready to be used when and where necessary regardless of "expiration" date. If you, as an individual, prefer to "trust" the "FDA" and pharmaceutical companies marketing information policies, that's your choice as always, but many of us preppers have done extensive search and research and based on the information we have acquired from reliable non-government sources, we choose to approach the situation very differently. Most of the current and ongoing drug shortages concern very specialized drugs which would not be found in a preppers medical kit. We certainly are not going to be treating cancer patients, nor those requiring TPN, nor transplant patients requiring immunosuppressant drugs, etc. WE are talking about ordinary antibiotics which are readily available to the public without a prescription. also ONE 200 mg overdose of over the counter Tylenol in a 24-hour period has the "potential" to completely destroy the liver and that person is dead unless they get a transplant really quickly. Just use common sense and do the research, then rely on your personal judgements.


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## survivalist72 (Jan 4, 2012)

SOME antibiotics become toxic after their expiration date.

NOT TRUE
give me one antibiotic that goes toxic just one?????

tetracycline isn't it. Sorry been there done that used tetracycline 3 years after expiration date and not dead yet. Neither are my animals. There was as some said a govt survey and test done but that information is now classified as a need to know basis and apparently they feel the public doesn't need to know it now. It used to be an unlocked website you could see the data on expired meds now you need clearance and a password.
Google Shelf Life Extension Program (SLEP) database.
There was ONE case many years ago that happened with tetracycline and a person died. What most people don't tell you is this person had other serious problems and it wasn't the tetracycline that killed them. That said the unstable compound in tetracycline has since been removed and replaced with a different chemical compound that is stable so problem solved.


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## jebrown (Nov 7, 2008)

One needs to be concerned with more than expiration dates. Such as incompatibilty with other medicines.
I am diabetic and I have diabetic neuropathy. Recently while out shopping it rained and when I returned to my vehicle there was no way I could get inside without getting my feet wet. 
When I got home I immediately took off my wet shoes and socks then dried my feet even between my toes.
When I woke up the next morning I had several blisters on both of my feet. This is the third time this has happened.
I put an atibiotic ointment that I had from my Doctor.
Then I developed an infection in my left foot so I went to the Doctor.
She prescibed smz/tmp 800-160.
About ten days later she sent me to the lab for an A1C test for my blood sugar level.
An hour and a half later she called me and saidf my potassium level was critical.
I went to the emergecy room for treatment. 
Neither the ER Doctor nor my Doctor knew why my potassium level jumped.
I contacted a pharmacist and told him what was wrong. 
He asked me about which antibiotic I was on. then he asked me if I was on glyburide. I told him not since last August. When I mentioned that I was taking Lisinipril. He told me that glyburide or Lisinipril taken with smz/tmp my potassium level would go up. 
When I got home I went on the internet and found the maker of smz/tmp. there was a pdf file on the drug so I downloaded it and read it. Under drug interactions it said that taking smz/tmp with either Glyburide or Lisinipril would increase potassium levels.
I never had any symptoms or any feeling of not being ok. had I not went in for the A1C test my potassium level woul.d have continued until my heart stopped. Since I live alone... well you know the rest.
Four days later after another bloood test myb potassium level is normal.
Two Doctors treated me and neither one of them knew why my potassium level went up.
I told my Doctor about the Lisinipril she did not believe me. I told her that while I was on smz/tmp I would not take Lisinipril, she put me on another medication for high blood pressure.
There is no dug book not even the Physicians Desk Reference (PDR) is 100% accurate this coupled with taking any medication with out Doctors supervision can be lethal
Remeber, I was under the supervision of two Doctors.


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## goatlady (Nov 7, 2011)

Prime example, to me anyway, of why doctors are still "practicing" medicine. I figure when they get the hang of it I may consider some of their treatments!


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## Libertarian (Aug 14, 2011)

AlabamaGal said:


> I'm going to guess that fish medications are not help to the same standards of purity and accuracy as human meds, or even those for cats & dogs.


For what it's worth, I once tracked down the factory that manufactures some of the antibiotics sold for animal use, and it was the _very same_ factory that made that antibiotic, in the same dosage, and in an identical capsule, as the generic antibiotic sold for human consumption. I obviously do not know what goes on inside these factories, but since many of the "For animal use only" drugs come in pills, capsules, etc., that are identical to those pictured in the Physician's Desk Reference (PDR) and in the same dosages, I have a hunch the manufacturing process is probably the same for human generic drugs as for drugs intended for use in the lower animals.


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## goatlady (Nov 7, 2011)

I also find it particularly "telling" that the fish antibiotics are made in the dosages recommended for treating humans! I cannot believe a fancy angel fish needs the same dose of amoxicillin as I do! The antibiotics are made in the same factories using the same ingredients just packages differently for price adjustments, or so my docs and Vets have told me.


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## CVORNurse (Oct 19, 2008)

jebrown said:


> One needs to be concerned with more than expiration dates. Such as incompatibilty with other medicines.
> I am diabetic and I have diabetic neuropathy. Recently while out shopping it rained and when I returned to my vehicle there was no way I could get inside without getting my feet wet.
> When I got home I immediately took off my wet shoes and socks then dried my feet even between my toes.
> When I woke up the next morning I had several blisters on both of my feet. This is the third time this has happened.
> ...


Good for your pharmacist. This is an excellent example of why you should only use one pharmacy. And preferably a little mom and pop type pharmacy, where there is only one or 2 pharmacists. Pharmacists catch many drug interaction problems.


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