# shotgun



## azurevirus (Jan 20, 2009)

Ive been thinking on one of these shotguns,,AOW 590 Cruiser with the 14" bbl or the 590A1 w/14" bbl..quetion I have is if any of you have guns that require ATF approval...how long does it take to get it


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## horseman09 (Mar 2, 2010)

As I recall, the barrel must be at least 18 3/8 inches and the overall length of the weapon must be..........????? I think 21 inches. Federal jail time if you are caught with a sawed off shotgun.


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## azurevirus (Jan 20, 2009)

Horseman...I " think" one can buy either of thes shotguns I mentioned but you have to get the ATF to approve it before hand..Im not sure on that tho..maybe you buy it and your FFL holds it until its approved?..I understand on the sawed off shotgun being illegal, I could buy 18" bbl shotguns all day long..I think anyone can (if no criminal record and mentally ok)..I was thinking one of the 14" bbl guns for home defense or taking it camping with me..seems like as far as shotguns go..a sbs would be ideal...I was just wondering how long it would take the ATF to approve it,,,Ive heard as long as nine months..but the source on that I dont fully trust..Im thinking serious on the 590A1 with the ghost ring sights and speed feed stock


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## horseman09 (Mar 2, 2010)

Yes, you can own them, my understanding is you must get a class 3 license for each restricted weapon, ($300 ??) whether it be a .50 cal machine gun or a sawed off shotgun. An extensive background check is part of that.

If money was no object, an M60 with lots of ammo would be lots and lots of fun. Might make the neighbors a bit uneasy tho.


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## BasecampUSA (Dec 26, 2010)

Oh, YEAH!

Don't get caught with an unregistered "other" firearm in your possesion...

Read all about it: United States Code: Title 26,CHAPTER 53-MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS | LII / Legal Information Institute

$200 tax stamp, a nice portrait (brush your teeth and comb your hair) and a successful extensive Federal colonoscopy, and you're all set!

That still does NOT mean you can alter one yourself... it means the "transfer" of such weapon from one legal owner to another.

AND, don't ever have it stolen from you (especially Class 3 stuff!) it is a _bucket_ of worms!

- Basey (ex FFL/gunshop owner)


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## azurevirus (Jan 20, 2009)

Yeah..sounds like its hardly worth the bother..it would cost me 600 for the gun,..200 for the stamp..shipping and FFL fee..and like you said it would have to be a keeper...be alot cheaper and less hassle to get a 500 with an 18" bbl and put pistol grips front and rear with an extended tube on it with a light if possible...thanks for the imput guys


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## JohnVenice (Aug 27, 2010)

Any Other Weapon trasnfer tax is five dollars if manufactured in that form(Application to Purchase). If you buy a shotgun and cut it yourself you are manufactring it yourself and need to pay the 200.00 dollars tax and file a different form(Application to Make and Register). 
I don't know how long it takes to clear the paperwork nowdays, I haven't been through it since I sold my Class 3 five years ago but I remember It was a lot less time than I expected from what I was reading. But then, I was selling to a liscenced dealer, not buying. When I bought, years ago, the paperwork was the same as now and it was tedious getting it all together but not difficult. If you can legally own firearms now and there is no state-level disqualification (such as certain states not allowing possesion of certain types of weapons- check you dep't of state) you should not have any problem getting one. Traveling intersate (advance permission on another form-Application to Transport Interstate), maintenance of record (available for inspection by ATF on demand), and risk of theft (high risk, severe consequences) are things to keep in mind.


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

A shotgun can't have a barrel of less then 18" with the entire weapon being a min of 26 inchs..meaning you can cut most pumps down to 18" ( I prefer 18 1/4" ) and with a pistol grip it will be over 26"... in truth, a shotgun with only a pistol grip is pretty worthless unless your in a fire fight in a phone booth... shooting one from the hip is very unproductive past 15 yards... there is no gain in having a 14 " shotgun and paying $200.00 for the fed stamp... plus your leaving a red flag to your front door..

The $5.00 ATF stamp falls under the "Any other Weapon" class.. but it has to have only a pistol grip... if you put a shoulder stock on it then it is a C 3 weapon and the fee is $200.00.. go figger.. so that's why I say why bother with the 14 " bbl.. 

If your thinking SHTF.. why pay 200 bucks out now? wait and cut it off when the shtf.. if you must!.. I prefer having a choked tube, it will hold your shot shot spread down...

There is a fairly new buck shot ( meaning in the last few years or so) called Control flight shot.. and it really puts the shot load on target.. even with short bbls...

In truth I see no good use for the real short barreled guns.. but that's just me because I've played with every type that came along.. out of all the shotguns I've owned I love my Saiga 12 .. with 10 round mags it's damn hard to beat.. and with the AK type action it's damn near bullet proof.. the only issue I see is loading mags on the run.. in that case a good pump is great.. but I think I have around 15 mags.. so that's 150 rounds loaded and if that runs out then I guess I'm in deep dodo...lol

Anyway that's my feelings on short bbl shotguns... much ado for nada... spend your 200 bucks for more ammo and a hack saw blade if you need to ...


As I seem to recall you can apply to the ATF for the 5.00 stamp and do it yourself but you have to register the gun with them.. As I recall being the key words.. but check.. still I wouldn't bother... and remember when TSHTF all bets are off.. if I have it I'll use it... don't think for one second there won't be thousands of parts kits coming out of hiding.. not to mention thousands of toys that were never put on the books... like the old cartoon of two guys in a boat fishing... seeing the mushroom cloud rising into the sky..one says to the other... you know this means no limit and no more lic?


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## sailaway (Mar 12, 2009)

What about the length of black powder shotgun bbls?:scratch, blunderbus?:scratch


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## BasecampUSA (Dec 26, 2010)

As far as I know, black powder (flint and cap lock) is exempt.


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## townparkradio (Mar 30, 2010)

*puts on Captain Killjoy hat*

I'm surprised that nobody except Hozaybuck's brought up the fact that shortening the barrel has little effect different than open choke except, if you go too short, you're going to lose shot speed as the powder didn't get to burn off in the barrel. It's not worth the extra money for all these silly permits and stamps because... let's be honest here.

If you can't maneuver in tight spaces with an 18.5 inch barrel, a 14 inch one is going to make much difference; you simply don't know how to use a shotgun. if you harbor ideas of concealing a shotgun, consider the idea that you might be "preparing" for a make-believe scenario...

Oh yeah, another tip. Real life isn't Modern Warfare 2; a short barreled shotgun does not produce an impenetrable wall of death. Furthermore, shotguns are REALLY loud, kick a lot, and make a lot of flash. You don't want the barrel close to your body. Get yourself a good old 870, the synthetic 18 is a good model, and actually fire it for a while.

Those pistol grips and unsteady cheap folding stocks become less and less a good idea the more you fire a shotgun. The thing's a shoulder cannon, you can never turn it into a one-handed weapon. I had this told to me and found through experience it's correct as well... don't put a lot of ammo holders and lights and grips and crap on it either, they just slow you down. I don't even have a shoulder strap on my shotgun anymore.

Shotgun competitions are not won by short barreled tacticool monstrosities, they're generally won by old men with oak-stocked Wingmasters. The reasons for that being true will hold true in an emergency as well.

*removes Captain Killjoy cap*

Aren't shotguns fun as heck, though? And really, the firearm version of a swiss army knife. In a pinch, a shotgun can do just about anything you'd need another firearm for. But man, don't fire both barrels at once. I did that once and was unable to aim for crap the rest of the day. Took the second blast right on my bicep.


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## townparkradio (Mar 30, 2010)

And uhh.. I just looked up the model you named.

Mossberg AOW 590 'Crusier' 12g 14" Shotgun is this what you're talking about?

You do not want a shotgun without a stock. Period. Shotguns are exhausting enough even without your wrists being forced into absorbing the recoil. Furthermore, you cannot point a stockless shotgun properly at all... if you tried you'd give yourself a fat lip. Get a real shotgun, not a fantasy play toy.

Those things serve no purpose except to breach locks.


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## Tex (Oct 31, 2008)

The 14" isn't worth the hassle, as you have already determined. Also, you lose your ammo capacity. The only place that would be useful would be as a LEO in a vehicle. 

As to whether or not you want a pistol grip, that's your choice. A pistol grip will be harder to aim, but easier to use in tight spaces. A full stock can be used to hold spare ammo and be used better as a weapon when you run out of ammo. A tactical stock has a pistol grip and can be shouldered. Some Mossbergs come with standard stock and pistol grip stock and some also come with 2 barrels to change from hunting to defense. I may be buying a shotgun later this year. I'm leaning toward the Mossberg and I think I will get both styles of stock to try them for myself, unless I can find a friend with a pistol grip to try out.


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

BasecampUSA said:


> As far as I know, black powder (flint and cap lock) is exempt.


Maybe a muzzle loader.. but with BP it the barrel length that gives the most umph... short bbls have lots of fire out in front where it's not doing you any good..

14 " or 18"... 4 missing inch's might matter in sex but in shotguns not much... it's not worth the money to do it legal and not worth the problems is your caught doing it without paying the man... BUT!.. unlike an unlic. full auto a shotgun don't make any special attention getting noise.. so if your shooting a extra shorty out in the woods or the back 40 so what.. you just can't wear it to Sunday going to meeting....


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*The all purpose weapon*

A shotgun is the all purpose weapon. It is good for hunting and self defense. A pump like a Mossburg 835 with at least a 24 inch barrel. It should have a sling and a shell holder attached to the stock. A flashlight attached to the gun is very useful

You can kill any thing that roams the North American continent with it . It will chamber 2 3/4 , 3 , and 3 ½ inch rounds. The ammo is affordable and easy to reload. It is a legal weapon to own and carry in all 50 states.

When I was a Deputy sheriff , if I thought I was going to encounter an armed suspect, it was the weapon I carried !


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## azurevirus (Jan 20, 2009)

*kel-tec*

Anyone seen thr new Kel-tec shotgun?, google it
kel-tec ksg 14+1 pump bull pump tactical shotgun
rumor has it to sell in the 800 dollar + vacinity
pretty neat


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

Just thought I'd check back in on this post since it's a fav subject of mine... I would like to add a few thoughts to this whole shotgun thing...

I'm assuming that your all thinking of a duel purpose shotgun , one that will work for hunting as well as a SHTF defensive weapon.. 

My advice is to go with a good pump 12 gauge , either a Remington 870 or a Mossburg , the reason I say pump is because they are the most reliable of all types .

The marines are the one branch of the US Military that still issues shotguns, and before you Army pukes (  ) start yelling.. I shoot with guys who have served in the Army Spec Ops units, and some who are still serving at this time... they have never had any training with the shotgun.. so what I said wasn't meant as a put down... back to the issue.. the Marines use pumps only.. auto loaders just are not reliable for combat. 

In competition match's I've seen just about every make of auto loader fail.. during the 1997 SOF match in Las Vegas , a team of LEO's who were in front of my team started out with 5 benilie (sp) autos, at the end of the 3rd day they had one working gun... 

I wouldn't bet my life on most auto loaders... on the trap range or in the duck blind..no prob.. out in the middle of Indian country it is a big problem.. as I've already said, I shoot a Saiga 12..it's an auto loader but it's an AK auto loader.. not sleek, not smooth, not pretty, but it just works.. still all in all if I was on the move in the bush I might think of switching to my 870... but I have total faith in the S 12.. AND.. it will lay slugs on a 6" target at 100 yds all day long...

I'm not saying I'm the sharpest knife in the drawer, nor that I know it all, I just know what I've seen and done... at the end of the day, in the real world all we can do is relay on what we know for a fact to be true.... but, in combat situations , yesterdays truths are today's mistakes.

Unless you burn up several hundred rounds of ammo a year thru your shotgun you really don't know what it can and will do... I know trap shooters who burn thousands of rounds a year... light bird shot type shells.. ask them where their gun will print buck shot at 35 yards or slugs at 100 yds and they will look at you like your crazy..

Buy your pump if you don't have one, get one with a 21 inch BBL with rifle sights and then go shoot at least 50 rounds of slugs at ranges from 25 to 100 yards.. shoot standing up offhand, no rest.. shoot the same number of buck shot at 25 to 50 yards.. this all at a man shaped target.. learn for yourself just where your gun shoots.. if you do this you will know more about the practical uses of " YOUR" gun then most people will ever know about theirs.. 

This is just my thoughts on this subject, but it's one I love!!.. I love the shotgun... when I was a LEO and we went to a scene where there was an issue I always took my shotgun... it gets attention and respect like nothing else.. the BG's know your not fooling around when they see " The Gun" !...

Whatever you buy or use.. USE it!! work with it... don't bet your life on a safe queen..


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## LegitCitizen (Jan 1, 2011)

townparkradio said:


> *puts on Captain Killjoy hat*
> 
> I'm surprised that nobody except Hozaybuck's brought up the fact that shortening the barrel has little effect different than open choke except, if you go too short, you're going to lose shot speed as the powder didn't get to burn off in the barrel. It's not worth the extra money for all these silly permits and stamps because... let's be honest here.
> 
> ...


Ah, the voice of reason. It's why I love it here. I will add my two cents' worth just because I haven't seen anyone mention this yet. Both the Remington and the Mossberg have right-side ejection. I chose a Browning Hi-Cap because it has bottom eject. The left-handed shooters in the house really appreciate that. The Hi-Cap has a steel receiver and you can swap out barrels for one with adjustable chokes. As it came in the box it has a 20" which seems to be easily maneuverable even in and through the narrow doorways of my 1929 adobe cottage.

I've shot a few shotguns in my time (not as many as I'd like 'cause they are FUUUN!!!)... and I like pump action for their auditory deterrent factor, 12 ga. for the wide variety of ammo, and a normal non-folding stock. The more moving parts and gee gaws you add, the more there is to go wrong. And that line about "old men and wingmasters?" Spot on. Like most other things in prepping, based on my experience, shotguns are 90% technique and 10% tool.

And I didn't recognize the Captain Kiljoy cap... I thought it was the Voice of Reason Watchcap...

Thanks for reading.


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## philjam (Dec 17, 2008)

Most burglars will run away upon hearing the sound of a pump shotgun being jacked. Also will run from a vicious dog snarling and growling. 

Shotgun loaded with buckshot is the weapon of choice for lazy people who don't care about guns and don't want to learn how to shoot. BTW, nothing wrong with this, the shotgun is just a protection tool.


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

philjam said:


> Most burglars will run away upon hearing the sound of a pump shotgun being jacked. Also will run from a vicious dog snarling and growling.
> 
> Shotgun loaded with buckshot is the weapon of choice for lazy people who don't care about guns and don't want to learn how to shoot. BTW, nothing wrong with this, the shotgun is just a protection tool.


*Where in the world did you dredge up the idea that a shotgun is a lazy persons gun?.. there is every bit as much skill needed to use a shotgun "properly" as a rifle , each is for a different purpose..

And no it's not " just a protection tool "..... I've always said I keep a handgun by my bed to get me to my shotgun which I use to get me to my rifle.. a shotgun is an awesome weapon in a night gun fight.. as long as it's no more then 100 yds and fifty yards is better.. anybody can be taught in short order to use a SG good enough for any reason.. from meat getter to man killer.. pistols and rifles take more time to develop the skills to use them well.... but using a SG while learning to handle the others is for sure not being lazy...

The shotgun is not the do all , be all , end all , of hunting or fighting... but it's a damn good tool to have until something better is available *


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## philjam (Dec 17, 2008)

HozayBuck said:


> philjam said:
> 
> 
> > Most burglars will run away upon hearing the sound of a pump shotgun being jacked. Also will run from a vicious dog snarling and growling.
> ...


I did not mean lazy in the sense of "couch potato. "Maybe I should have said this different. What I mean is a shotgun is the best weapon for someone who only wants a self defense weapon. A person who is not going to train and practice with a hand gun and/or rifle. One doesn't need a lot of practice pointing and firing buckshot at close range. My SIL is not a gun person, does not practice, has a sg, and can blow up a target to 20 yds.


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## booter (Jan 23, 2010)

azurevirus said:


> Ive been thinking on one of these shotguns,,AOW 590 Cruiser with the 14" bbl or the 590A1 w/14" bbl..quetion I have is if any of you have guns that require ATF approval...how long does it take to get it


You can't have one, but if you want to see some, sign up at [www.canadiangunnutz.com] under forums-look for 'firearms & optics' go to 'Black and Green Shotguns' 'pics of your tactical shottys'. You'll see every kind of 'shorty - tactical' shotguns made, it's amazing what those Canucks 
can legally own, enjoy the photos.


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## philjam (Dec 17, 2008)

Mossburg 500 w 18" barrel is legal.


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## LegitCitizen (Jan 1, 2011)

philjam said:


> I did not mean lazy in the sense of "couch potato. "Maybe I should have said this different. What I mean is a shotgun is the best weapon for someone who only wants a self defense weapon. A person who is not going to train and practice with a hand gun and/or rifle. One doesn't need a lot of practice pointing and firing buckshot at close range. My SIL is not a gun person, does not practice, has a sg, and can blow up a target to 20 yds.


Your odds of hitting a target may be better, given the multiple pellets in a shotgun shell. But, striking the target isn't a guarantee. And getting a good solid hit in an area that's going to stop an attack or home invasion is certainly not guaranteed. Plus, blowing up a paper target at 20 yards in relaxed, ideal conditions is a far cry from hitting a potential assailant in your home, in the dark under the influence of fear and adrenaline.

My feeling is this: if you're not going to practice, you shouldn't have it. Without practice you're just an accident waiting to happen.


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## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

Practice is for more than just being able to hit a target. It gets you familiar with your weapon. If you NEED to go for it, it is nice to feel comfortable and natural with it. There is no going ‘is the safety on’, ‘is this even where the safety is?’, ‘how many rounds do I have in it?’ and so on. You can pick it up and without even having to think about it, you go through the motions of preparing to deal with whatever you felt you had to pick up a weapon for. Especially important at night when you cannot turn a light on and visually see what you have to do.

You can practice most of this w/out even going to the range, or having a round in the clip/magazine/chamber. Go pick up your weapon, pretend to load it and prepare to fire. Being able to put a full clip into a 6” circle at 50 yds. is nice too but remember to practice being comfortable and knowledgeable.


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## ar15bob (Feb 23, 2011)

Just picked a remington 877 nitro mag18 in barrel with break fiber optic sight rail on top for red dot or hallow front rail for a light cant wait to shoot it went to cabelas picked up 250 winchester target loads 50 rounds millitary 00 buck let ya know if its any good


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## azurevirus (Jan 20, 2009)

*shotguns*

Speaking of shot guns..Im now on the waiting list for a Kel tec KSG....I havent paid yet as they couldnt give me a "due in " date for the gun..in the meantime Im looking at a Mossy Persuader 8 shot pistol grip for under 300..I want to make sure I can get the pistol foregrip for this particular gun before I get it


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## JohnVenice (Aug 27, 2010)

ar15bob said:


> Just picked up a Remington 877 nitro mag nice gun coated will not rust ever ...


I like the 870 but I don't know this model. Does the coating cover internal parts too or is it barrel and outside? I've never had internal parts rust yet if I spray with a CLP but I now live near salt water (without oil in it) for which I am grateful.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

azurevirus said:


> Speaking of shot guns..Im now on the waiting list for a Kel tec KSG....I havent paid yet as they couldnt give me a "due in " date for the gun..in the meantime Im looking at a Mossy Persuader 8 shot pistol grip for under 300..I want to make sure I can get the pistol foregrip for this particular gun before I get it


Check out tac-star's products,you'll junk the stock grips.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

LegitCitizen said:


> Your odds of hitting a target may be better, given the multiple pellets in a shotgun shell. But, striking the target isn't a guarantee. And getting a good solid hit in an area that's going to stop an attack or home invasion is certainly not guaranteed. Plus, blowing up a paper target at 20 yards in relaxed, ideal conditions is a far cry from hitting a potential assailant in your home, in the dark under the influence of fear and adrenaline.
> 
> My feeling is this: if you're not going to practice, you shouldn't have it. Without practice you're just an accident waiting to happen.


For what it's worth I would expect to use a shotgun in an EOTWAWKI scenario where at least one person would be awake and have the shotgun handy 24/7. I do plan on doing some target practice after I get the gun.


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## Jimmy24 (Apr 20, 2011)

Well been reading this one for a while. Good comments. 

I will have or want my shotgun in a pinch. I have 12 weapons of assorted breeds and species. But my 835 Mossberg is my favorite gun. I love all of them, but it's my go-to weapon.

24 in barrel 3 1/2 mag. Magazine ext. Ported. Ghost ring sight. Composite traditional stock. Trulock screw in choke. They all make a difference.

Out to 60 yards with Federal Vita-Shocks with Flight Control 3in 00 buck, I will make a bad day for anyone. I had as many as 12 hits on a full size silhouette target. Normally 6-9 hits. With the 3 1/2 load with 18 pellets I had 12 hits several times.

Let me add that investing in a good ghost ring sight is way worth it. Bead sights just don't cut it.

When fully loaded with 3 1/2 00 (holds 8) that's 144 pellets. 135 with 3 in.

Have 4 other chokes that allows the gun to be used for a variety of uses. It started life as a turkey gun and now does it all.

I love my shotgun....:2thumb:

Jimmy


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

JohnVenice said:


> I like the 870 but I don't know this model. Does the coating cover internal parts too or is it barrel and outside? I've never had internal parts rust yet if I spray with a CLP but I now live near salt water (without oil in it) for which I am grateful.


The guts in my old wingmaster were chromed,they were only blued in my newer one,I think the ones with the chromed bolt and loading gate are the ones with chromed internals.

The 870 is easy to strip if you're adding a sidesaddle or scope mount,pop it apart and look,if not just give them a good coating of dry moly spray,use it like paint,several light coats with about 5 minutes between passes.

P.S 
starting fluid will remove it completely,just don't get it on anything plastic!
the dry-moly itself will super adhere to parkerized finishes like paint and looks like WWII green parking.nice for touch ups and it wears decently.


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## Tex (Oct 31, 2008)

I bought a Mossberg 500 12 guage 20". It holds 7+1 and has the standard full stock. It's mainly for home defense, but I may practice with it by shooting skeet with my friends. I would like to be able to hunt with it if SHTF. I saw a coyote in my front yard last week and I don't want them around my 9 year old or my pets. 

I'm new to shotguns. What do you recommend for sights? Is a red dot overkill and something to get broken? Ghost ring? Laser? It came with the bead sight.


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## JohnVenice (Aug 27, 2010)

For coyotes I would leave the bead and spend my money on having an interchangeable choke system installed. I would use BB or #2 shot, preferably one of the high density loads, and a modified or full choke, whichever gave the most uniform and centered pattern. I have had exactly one shotgun with a peep sight. I liked it a lot for slugs and extra-tight patterns with small size shot but saw no real advantage with pest and defense loads. ( I lived in the rural mid-west at the time).


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

*A good deal for scatter guns*

check out this site...and the page I copied.. this is a great deal for folks with older gus... I have 3 I'm sending him... one at a time of course!!... check out his prices for finishes..

DEAL


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## Calebra (Nov 8, 2010)

Never saw much need for that type--you get what 4 shots with a barrel as short as that? The above mentioned kel tech bull pup would do a hell of a lot better.Then again you've never mentioned what you going to be using it for--it's a job specific tool,that's why there are so many ways to build up and accessorize a shotgun.


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

Benelli Super 90. All you need. 

That said, the Remmington 870 is a solid weapon, too.


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