# Sticky  Antibiotics



## UncleJoe

Came across this tonight. You can never have too much info on antibiotics.

http://www.truthistreason.net/guide-to-veterinary-drugs-for-human-consumption-post-shtf

*Penicillin*

Penicillin is an antibiotic in the penicillin group of drugs. It fights bacteria in your body.

Penicillin is used to treat many different types of infections caused by bacteria, such as ear infections, urinary tract infections, septicemia, meningitis, intra-abdominal infection, gonorrhea, syphilis, pneumonia, respiratory infections, ear, nose and throat infections, skin and soft tissue infections.

More information can be found here, including side effects, allergic reactions, etc.

Veterinarian Equivalent: 250mg Fish Pen and 500mg Fish Pen Forte

*Amoxicillin*

A penicillin antibiotic. It fights bacteria in your body.

Amoxicillin is used to treat many different types of infections caused by bacteria, such as ear infections, bladder infections, pneumonia, gonorrhea, and E. coli or salmonella infection.

More information can be found here, including side effects, allergic reactions, etc.

Veterinarian Equivalent: 250mg Fish Mox (for children) and 500mg Fish Mox Forte (for adults).
*
Ciprofloxacin*, or *Cipro*

Ciprofloxacin is an antibiotic in a group of drugs called fluoroquinolones. It is used as a potent, broad-spectrum antibiotic to fight bacteria in the body.

It may also be used to prevent or slow anthrax after exposure.

More information can be found here, including side effects, allergic reactions, etc.

Veterinarian Equivalent: 500mg Fish Flox Forte

*Cephalexin,* or *Keflex*

Cephalexin is in a group of drugs called cephalosporin antibiotics. Keflex fights bacteria in the body.

Keflex is used to treat infections caused by bacteria, including upper respiratory infections, ear infections, skin infections, urinary tract infections, tooth and mouth infections.

More information can be found here, including side effects, allergic reactions, etc.

Veterinarian Equivalent: 250mg Fish Flex and 500mg Fish Flex Forte

*Doxycycline*

Doxycycline is a tetracycline antibiotic. It fights bacteria in the body. It may be substituted in place of penicillin to treat common infections in those people who are allergic to that particular drug.

Doxycycline is used to treat many different bacterial infections, such as urinary tract infections, acne, gonorrhea, and chlamydia, Lyme disease or tick bite infections, anthrax infections, cholera, periodontitis (gum disease), and others.

Exercise caution with expired Doxycycline / tetracycline and -cycline medications. There has been some documentation of liver damage and some have even labeled it toxic if used past the expiration date. However, Doxycycline provides a great alternative to penicillin medications for those who are allergic.

More information can be found here, including side effects, allergic reactions, etc.

Veterinarian Equivalent: 100mg Bird Biotic
Dosages and Notes Regarding Veterinary Drugs

Joseph Alton, MD, is a medical doctor and Fellow of the American College of Surgeons and the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology. He is also a prepper, and writes:

"These antibiotics are used at specific doses for specific illnesses; the exact dosage of each and every medication is beyond the scope of this [article]. Suffice it to say that most penicillin and cephalosporin (Keflex and other cephalexin) medications are taken at 500mg dosages, 3-4 times a day for adults, and 250mg dosages for children, whereas Metronidazole (250mg) and Doxycycline (100mg) are taken twice a day.

It's important to have as much information as possible on medications that you plan to store for times of trouble, so consider purchasing a hard copy of the latest Physician's Desk Reference. This book comes out yearly and has just about every bit of information that exists on a particular medication, including those that do not require prescription. Indications, dosage, risks, and side effects are all listed."


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## Caribou

http://www.fishmoxfishflex.com/


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## Iafrate

So you have these antibiotics, how do you do a differential diagnosis to determine which one to use?


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## Cotton

Are you asking a serious question? After 25 years in the bush you’ve never faced this? An infection, a cut, respiratory, urinary or intestinal? 25 years without such is incredible… I’m sure you have, how did you address this issue in the past? Please, share with us.

I suggest for any who haven’t to follow the advice of medical professionals in your family or group. Lacking that asset many medical reference guides are available for purchase. If you lack those two assets try a broad spectrum like usnea. I just posted about it in this board. It’s been used effectively for thousands of years. It does grow in Alaska.


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## *Andi

Penicillin ... In my world means a trip to the ER, I found that out at a early age...


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## musketjim

Been collecting fish antibiotics and started studying essential oils for an alternative. Physician Desk Reference is handy to have.


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## UncleJoe

Iafrate said:


> So you have these antibiotics, how do you do a differential diagnosis to determine which one to use?


Did you follow the link at the top of the post?


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## lazydaisy67

I have stocked, and used those antibiotics for over a year now and we have had absolutely no adverse reactions of any kind. I figured it was probably prudent to try to use them now when medical care was available if, on the off chance, something did happen after taking them. I only use them if I've tried all the homeopathic remedies available to me and they've failed. I personally that this is an invaluable prep to have.


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## OldCootHillbilly

Good post UJ! I been lookin inta this. I thin they very much be worth havin on hand "just in case". Folks don't realize how quickly doctors, hospitals an the health care folks er gonna be overrun an run outa supplies. 

We did a exercise last winter fer CERT, found out within 4 hours ofa major disaster were done. Ifin help can't get ta us from other facilities in the region, were gonna be on our own.

A old vet I knew years ago treated himself an family with the same stuff he was givin ta the animals. Told me it was exactly the same only difference was the dose.

Biggest concern be allergies, an fer the most part, ya should already know what ones those be. 

Thanks.


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## drfacefixer

OldCootHillbilly said:


> Good post UJ! I been lookin inta this. I thin they very much be worth havin on hand "just in case". Folks don't realize how quickly doctors, hospitals an the health care folks er gonna be overrun an run outa supplies. We did a exercise last winter fer CERT, found out within 4 hours ofa major disaster were done. Ifin help can't get ta us from other facilities in the region, were gonna be on our own. A old vet I knew years ago treated himself an family with the same stuff he was givin ta the animals. Told me it was exactly the same only difference was the dose. Biggest concern be allergies, an fer the most part, ya should already know what ones those be. Thanks.


If you don't have any means to test or run basic labs, then the best you can do use use an empiric guide Like the Sanford guide. It's much better than the PDR.


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## PrepN4Good

lazydaisy67 said:


> I have stocked, and used those antibiotics for over a year now and we have had absolutely no adverse reactions of any kind. I figured it was probably prudent to try to use them now when medical care was available if, on the off chance, something did happen after taking them. I only use them if I've tried all the homeopathic remedies available to me and they've failed. I personally that this is an invaluable prep to have.


LD, do you buy them online or at a local aquarium place...?


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## OldCootHillbilly

I would buy local with cash ifin tall possible. Best bet be stay under the radar. Just sayin.


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## drfacefixer

OldCootHillbilly said:


> I would buy local with cash ifin tall possible. Best bet be stay under the radar. Just sayin.


unless they are manufactured here, I would avoid it. Under FDA guidelines, fish medications are considered exotics and have very lax to nill guidelines, much of what the FDA tests and regulates is antibiotics used in aquaculture. Currently, there are less than 6 medications approved. Think about it. If a bad batch comes in from India and a few betas with ick dies no one really knows what killed it. Much less, few care. For similar reasons as well as saving, most vets write scripts that are filled at human pharmacies. ( if your dog dies, they you blame the vet, you usually can't blame the efficacy of the same quality antibiotic hundreds of people were just dispensed.) Fishmox is a niche market with a huge markup that uses the exotic pet market as a loophole. Using it actually doesn't save you money. Cost on generic amoxicillin is about $4. Publix gives it away free. Heck if you want to make some easy money, save your old fishmox bottles, buy some chalk or talc and a pill press. You can start selling on eBay and preppers will buy your stuff and sock it away. You can buy whatever letters and numbers match the pill pictured in the pdr. Win win, you get their money and they likely don't even use your product. If they do, then the worlds gone to hell anyway.

livestock quality antibiotics is a much safer bet although the formulations are not similar to what your standard pharmacy doses are. Google aquaculture - you are not going to find legit fish farmers telling you to give your tilapia a 500mg dose of fishmox. ( hmmm same dose for a 70kg male as a 2lb fish) For the most part it's already added to the food or it's added in a certain dose to volume of water in a sick tank.


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## lazydaisy67

PrepN4Good said:


> LD, do you buy them online or at a local aquarium place...?


Ebay! There's generally two types on Ebay. The more expensive brands manufactured in the U.S. and the cheaper brands from China. Both cost less than most people's office visit co-pay. I've used both. Without doing labs on myself to verify, I'd have to say both performed equally. It's certainly not an exact science, and I know a LOT of people get the heebeegeebees when they think about it, but for me personally I get more freaked out by the thought of watching my kids die from something like strep throat when there are no doctors.


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## -prepper-

Okay so just went to the doctor and did you know that just by looking into someone's ear, nose and mouth you can determine that they have a bacterial infection and will need 2 antibiotics !?! I didn't receive any kind of test... Just looked at... I went in for a cough.. And came out with Antibiotics .:. I'm a bit outraged. I refuse to take them. All I wanted was a higher cough suppressant than flipping DayQuil.


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## camo2460

-prepper- said:


> Okay so just went to the doctor and did you know that just by looking into someone's ear, nose and mouth you can determine that they have a bacterial infection and will need 2 antibiotics !?! I didn't receive any kind of test... Just looked at... I went in for a cough.. And came out with Antibiotics .:. I'm a bit outraged. I refuse to take them. All I wanted was a higher cough suppressant than flipping DayQuil.


prepper do you have any medical training at all, other that knowing how to put a bandaid on a scratch? You said that you were outraged that you were given antibiotics because he looked into your ears, nose and throat, I can tell you, that I can tell that you have a throat infection, such a Strep Throat, just by looking, and I'm not a doctor, how much more could a doctor who has thirty years experience do? Further more if all you wanted was a prescription cough syrup why didn't you just ask for it?


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## drfacefixer

camo2460 said:


> prepper do you have any medical training at all, other that knowing how to put a bandaid on a scratch? You said that you were outraged that you were given antibiotics because he looked into your ears, nose and throat, I can tell you, that I can tell that you have a throat infection, such a Strep Throat, just by looking, and I'm not a doctor, how much more could a doctor who has thirty years experience do? Further more if all you wanted was a prescription cough syrup why didn't you just ask for it?


What the doctor did was treat you empirically. It takes minimum of 3 days to grow bacteria and run a kerby bauer test on it. That's expensive too. Its only done for severe infections. You can run a quick strep assay which can tell you if a soar throat is a developing early streptococcus infection vs virus - this is mainly so patients don't wait to get a full blown strep throat before receiving antibiotics and so antibiotics aren't wasted on a virus infection. Most ENT infections are caused by a handful of bacteria that are easily treated with routine and cheap antibiotics. There is a set and excepted protocol for this. you never want to get completely in the habit of doing cookbook medicine, but you also can't go chasing everything like they are zebras. Running expensive tests on issues that are a truly clinical diagnoses such as this is poor practice.

Fluid behind the eardrums, runny nose, post nasal drip, cough, drainage, erythematous throat ect... you have an upper respiratory infection. Your history is going to provide the only missing info here. Majority of URI are caused by viruses (not to mention the doctors see many people with the same thing this time of year) But if its been ongoing past 10-14days, then its outlived the course of many viruses and would be considered either a primary or secondary bacterial infection - hence the antibiotics. Purchase a sanfords guide. It will list what antibiotic is first line, second line, ect defense for either the involved bacteria or the organ system involved. Other reasons to empirically choose an antibiotic would likewise be based on your past medical history and a little bit on your presentation.

FYI- If you came in there just asking for a stronger cough suppressant you actually sound like a drug seeking patient. Antitussives with prescriptions are the same as OTC but contain wither hydrocodone (vicodin) or codeine.


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## -prepper-

I'm not a druggie guys lol. I'm just a person who would like to stop coughing long enough to get some sleep . I have the antibiotics in my kit so no harm in having them. I already got checked for strep Tuesday and then went back Wednesday for a "check up" of my lungs. I just think it's stupid for a doctor to give me antibiotics for just a cough. Maybe I'm wrong maybe I'm right , don't know. All I do know is that I'm feeling better now and I haven't taken an antibiotic yet/ only have taken one dose of the stronger cough medicine and I got a wonderful nights sleep after 3 restless nights. So great now I have some antibiotics and cough medicine in my FAK.


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## drfacefixer

-prepper- said:


> I'm not a druggie guys lol. I'm just a person who would like to stop coughing long enough to get some sleep . I have the antibiotics in my kit so no harm in having them. I already got checked for strep Tuesday and then went back Wednesday for a "check up" of my lungs. I just think it's stupid for a doctor to give me antibiotics for just a cough. Maybe I'm wrong maybe I'm right , don't know. All I do know is that I'm feeling better now and I haven't taken an antibiotic yet/ only have taken one dose of the stronger cough medicine and I got a wonderful nights sleep after 3 restless nights. So great now I have some antibiotics and cough medicine in my FAK.


Good deal then. From what you say sounds like the right thing was done unless your symptoms were only days old. You went were evaluated, had a follow up still had a concern for possible lower respiratory infection (ie pneumonia) which has a 30% mortality and is more more difficult and costly to treat. If you are healthy without immune compromise and no hx of allergy there is little risk of taking a penicillin or azithromycin in terms of creating bacterial resistance. Give it a few months, stay off abx or ventilators and likely any bacteria that gained resistance would lose it again. It's repeat offenders of people that think they need antibiotics for everything that cause problems for those that need it.

The Vicodin laced tussives work wonders FYI. But drug abuse and this new wave of doctors causing all the problems are making it a liability to dispense.


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## Beaniemaster2

Besides fish antibiotics, I also stock injectable penicillin from the Farm supply store... Dose is adjusted by weight... I also stock tetanus booster vials... My research showed these to be very affective and safe... Remember back when if you got sick, you went to the Dr and he gave you a shot and that was it...


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## weedygarden

If I stock a fish antibiotic, then how do I know how much to use and how long to take it?

I recently connected and have now dis-connected from the same person. I was asked to take her to the E.R. for an infected tooth. I dropped her off, picked her up when I was called, and took her to get meds. She was prescribed a pain pill and an antibiotic. I had the conversation that you know you are supposed to take the whole bottle of antibiotics for it to do what it needs to do. Yes. More than a week later I another family member told me they took a couple of her antibiotics because they had a cold. 

So two people in one family are trying to take the prescription of antibiotics and neither one is getting the full benefit. Neither one gets it, nor do they want to.

So, if I was to get these fish antibiotics, how many do I take and for how long? I know there is a prescribed amount based on weight, and there is a prescribed time frame.


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## Aliaysonfire

So if you are taking a fish abx, you need to find out what it's dose is for humans and for what purpose. So if you had a human Rx for 20 mg of cipro and the fish med came in 5 mg tabs you'd have to take 4 tabs to get the same dose- and then to see how long and how often you'd have to find out what you have- a kidney infection is what ails you? Great. As long as you're sure of that. Like 90% at least...
Go find out the usual dosage and how long to take the cipro. That is- as long as you consider your other problems. (Do you have impaired liver or kidney function? Ohhh- might be dangerous for you to take the med. because you can overdose if it doesn't get metabolized because of previous impairments) allergies or any other concerns, can you take this with your blood pressure meds?- can you trust the manufacturer of the fish abx to be the same as the human counterpart? Do they use the same binding agent? 
These questions are what you need to answer before you dive off and invest a lot into fish abx. That's why nobody really wants to bite at this question. Big liability.


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## 21601mom

This may help you, weedy

http://armageddonmedicine.net/?p=6490

She has a few articles related to proper use of such antibiotics . Lots of good info.


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## mamamouse

nobody has mentioned garlic or turmeric.......both are antibiotic, store well, and easily accessable


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## camo2460

mamamouse said:


> nobody has mentioned garlic or turmeric.......both are antibiotic, store well, and easily accessable[/QUOTE
> 
> No not on this thread, however Faithmarie regularly posts on herbal medicines. Garlic and Turmeric are well know to most of us and are used by many.


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## Beaniemaster2

I did my homework... it's the same dosage.... FishPen 500mg is the same as 500mg of regular human Penicillian antibiotic, etc....


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## Padre

Active ingredient in both...is penicillin... amount in both is 500mg. So yes.

Sent from my XT1080 using Survival Forum mobile app


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## JayJay

Aliaysonfire said:


> So if you are taking a fish abx, you need to find out what it's dose is for humans and for what purpose. So if you had a human Rx for 20 mg of cipro and the fish med came in 5 mg tabs you'd have to take 4 tabs to get the same dose- and then to see how long and how often you'd have to find out what you have- a kidney infection is what ails you? Great. As long as you're sure of that. Like 90% at least...
> Go find out the usual dosage and how long to take the cipro. That is- as long as you consider your other problems. (Do you have impaired liver or kidney function? Ohhh- might be dangerous for you to take the med. because you can overdose if it doesn't get metabolized because of previous impairments) allergies or any other concerns, can you take this with your blood pressure meds?- can you trust the manufacturer of the fish abx to be the same as the human counterpart? Do they use the same binding agent?
> These questions are what you need to answer before you dive off and invest a lot into fish abx. That's why nobody really wants to bite at this question. Big liability.


http://www.preparednesspro.com/fish-antibiotics

http://www.doomandbloom.net/how-to-use-fish-mox-to-treat-your-sick-fish-of-course/

Just two sites with info--ixquick the term --dosage of fish antibiotics for humans..there are lots of links.

If you get sick with a bacterial infection, not viral, because antibiotics are useless there, you will figure out the dosage if you or your loved one needs it.

***The cells in your body are surrounded by an oily membrane. Bacteria are found on the outside of these cell walls and Viruses are on the inside of the cells. Regular antibiotics are unable to penetrate the cell wall and so they only work on bacterial infections, not on viruses.***

If your doctor prescribes antibiotics for a viral infection, he is a quack. Find a new one. My doctor even explained this to me.


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## ContinualHarvest

drfacefixer said:


> If you don't have any means to test or run basic labs, then the best you can do use use an empiric guide Like the Sanford guide. It's much better than the PDR.


Sanford Guide to Antimicrobial Therapy, library edition, is very useful.


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## drfacefixer

ContinualHarvest said:


> Sanford Guide to Antimicrobial Therapy, library edition, is very useful.


Exactly. It is an empiric guide based on gathered antibiotic spectrograms from major institutions showing generalized susceptibilities of bacteria to certain antibiotics. The PDR on the other hand is data from the manufacturer. For development guidelines, the antibiotics are usually only FDA tested and approved for a certain type of bacteria since it would be costly and unnecessary to test its effectiveness in areas were it may not be as effective as an existing drug. I wouldn't ever choose a PDR to direct my choice of empiric therapy, but the PDR does provide some great information that you have have trouble finding elsewhere. It has chemical structure, melting temp and assorted chemistry properties that can be useful. For example, you could crudely test purity based on melting point. If you want more technical data for testing with chromatography pickup a Handbook of Pharmaceutical Analysis. TLC can easily be used to test for purity and contamination, but you will need some knowledge in chemistry.


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## OldCootHillbilly

So, we all know these gotta expiration date on em. What I be wonderin is how ta keep em longer. I know the military has done some stuff ta keep there meds longer. What I been thinin bout be this: What ifin ya vac sealed these in a vac bag an then stored em ina fridge? Wonder how much longer they'd keep? Anybody got input on this er another idear?


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## Beaniemaster2

OldCootHillbilly said:


> So, we all know these gotta expiration date on em. What I be wonderin is how ta keep em longer. I know the military has done some stuff ta keep there meds longer. What I been thinin bout be this: What ifin ya vac sealed these in a vac bag an then stored em ina fridge? Wonder how much longer they'd keep? Anybody got input on this er another idear?


A friend of mine is a retired Pharmacist and that's what he told me to do so I vacuum packed them and store them in the fridge... He also said that doing that should add almost another year to their life span... He also said that antibiotics will last much longer in pill form than in capsules...

Powdered ones that you mix can't be saved once constituted and there is one rare antibiotic that is no good after the date but I forget the name but it is not one of the common antibiotics....

Hope this helped... Beanie


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## camo2460

Beaniemaster2 said:


> A friend of mine is a retired Pharmacist and that's what he told me to do so I vacuum packed them and store them in the fridge... He also said that doing that should add almost another year to their life span... He also said that antibiotics will last much longer in pill form than in capsules...
> 
> Powdered ones that you mix can't be saved once constituted and there is one rare antibiotic that is no good after the date but I forget the name but it is not one of the common antibiotics....
> 
> Hope this helped... Beanie


The Antibiotic that you are thinking of is Tetracycline, It is not rare, and is often used. You are right though, about the expiration date on this antibiotic, as it can become toxic when it gets old. There has been studies done by, of all people, FEMA, on the longevity of antibiotics as reported by Preparedness Pro. The findings were, that Antibiotics lasted far longer than the general population has been led to believe, if I recall correctly in the 7-10 year range with proper storage.


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## cowboyhermit

camo2460 said:


> The Antibiotic that you are thinking of is Tetracycline, It is not rare, and is often used. You are right though, about the expiration date on this antibiotic, as it can become toxic when it gets old.


Very true, the whole tetracycline group in fact; tetracycline, oxytetracycline (Terramycin), doxycycline, minocycline etc. Any "cycline" I would toss after the expiration date, as opposed to pretty much any other antibiotic. I would not use it for vet purposes, much less on people.


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## camo2460

cowboyhermit said:


> Very true, the whole tetracycline group in fact; tetracycline, oxytetracycline (Terramycin), doxycycline, minocycline etc. Any "cycline" I would toss after the expiration date, as opposed to pretty much any other antibiotic. I would not use it for vet purposes, much less on people.


I'm glad you brought that up CBH, I didn't think about it. You are so right.


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## JayJay

Wasn't it just reported that China is making our antibiotics now?/
We are so screwed.


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## drfacefixer

JayJay said:


> Wasn't it just reported that China is making our antibiotics now?/
> We are so screwed.


No. The majority of major pharmaceuticals are manufactured the US, Japan, and various European countries such as Switzerland, Germany aswell as the UK. China sells the majority of its pharmaceuticals to 3rd world markets where bulk demand at low cost has trumped safety on multiple occasions. There are also issues with counterfeiting that has made the major companies steer clear of China and India. There are a number of precursor chemicals that come from China and India, but the manufacturing tends to be done within the predominately 1st world market where the drugs are going to be sold.


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## LincTex

Why is their capacity to manufacture them so high that they have so much available to dump?!?!?!!? And why are they dumping them anyway?

World's highest drug levels entering India stream
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...t-drug-levels-entering-india-stream/?page=all

When researchers analyzed vials of treated wastewater taken from a plant where about 90 Indian drug factories dump their residues, they were shocked. Enough of a single, powerful antibiotic was being spewed into one stream each day to treat every person in a city of 90,000.

And it wasn't just ciprofloxacin being detected. The supposedly cleaned water was a floating medicine cabinet a soup of 21 different active pharmaceutical ingredients, used in generics for treatment of hypertension, heart disease, chronic liver ailments, depression, gonorrhea, ulcers and other ailments. Half of the drugs measured at the highest levels of pharmaceuticals ever detected in the environment, researchers say.

http://www.in-pharmatechnologist.com/Ingredients/Indian-river-pollution-sparks-call-for-change
45kg a day of ciprofloxacin!!!

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/indian-stream-a-cocktail-of-drugs/
Indian Stream A Cocktail Of Drugs


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## bunkerbob

camo2460 said:


> The Antibiotic that you are thinking of is Tetracycline, It is not rare, and is often used. You are right though, about the expiration date on this antibiotic, as it can become toxic when it gets old. There has been studies done by, of all people, FEMA, on the longevity of antibiotics as reported by Preparedness Pro. The findings were, that Antibiotics lasted far longer than the general population has been led to believe, if I recall correctly in the 7-10 year range with proper storage.


http://www.terrierman.com/antibiotics-WSJ.htm 
*
Only one report known to the medical community linked an old drug to human toxicity. A 1963 Journal of the American Medical Association article said degraded tetracycline caused kidney damage. Even this study, though, has been challenged by other scientists. Mr. Flaherty says the Shelf Life program encountered no toxicity with tetracycline and typically found batches effective for more than two years beyond their expiration dates.*

http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=27943.0

http://tracemypreps.com/2011/11/02/expired-or-not-expired-that-is-the-question/

I keep most antibiotics vac sealed and in the refer. Not to concerned if these are used for a SHTF scenario anyway, aren't these for that.

BB


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## Beaniemaster2

I ordered antibiotics from a reputable company in England and they came back shipped from India....


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## JayJay

Go back to sleep, folks....these would never get in our systems unless we eat the meat or drink the milk....wait a minute!!

Half of China's Antibiotics Now Go to Livestock

http://www.motherjones.com/tom-philpott/2013/09/chinas-antibiotic-meat-livestock


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## OldeTymer

From "On High"........................

http://www.cdc.gov/drugresistance/threat-report-2013/


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## learn2live

I just ordered the 'no allergies' kit from www.antibioticsforsurvival.com and should have them in the next week or two. I'll post photos when I get them.

The biggest advantage is that they come from a US physician and are not fish antibiotics, which I've read some horror stories about (exaggerated? maybe?). The ABX from the website were reasonably priced ($279 for the kit, I think) and he also has wound kits and local anesthetics for sale, too.


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## drfacefixer

There is no way in hell I would ever treat you with a 5 day course of antibiotics. The usually accepted short course for most situations using either a penicillin or a cephalosporin is 7 to 10 days. There are studies showing three day course and five day courses have unacceptable treatment rates and add to drug resistant organisms. I would consider those #100 pills either 2-3 courses not 5.


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## drfacefixer

And organisms usually laugh at 150mg doses of clindamycin. For oral meds, the usual dose for head and neck infections is 300mg three times daily or four times daily. I've formulations are either 600 to 900mg ever six hours. So the clindamycin is really a 2 course. When clindamycin is used for GI you usually have to add flagyl for anaerobic coverage or a secondary drug if you are using a lower dose. Not sure what type of doctor this is, but they are maximizing to amount of courses by treating with the minimal dose. That minimal dose isn't considering the avg size adult. I would use that minimal dose for the ~100lb tweenager where peds dosing gets inaccurate and most adult doses are considered for the 70kg male.


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## bigg777

I ordered "Fish Aid" (500 mg., 100 ct. amoxicillin) from Amazon on Thur. 1/27, just to see what would happen, and received it on Mon. 1/31. My aquarium should be good for a while now. If you think you'll need antibiotics for you pets, now is the time to order them.


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## learn2live

drfacefixer said:


> There is no way in hell I would ever treat you with a 5 day course of antibiotics.


I'm no doctor (I was a half-nurse for the Army a long, long time ago), but I completely agree. I saw the best outcomes from cases that got 7-10 day courses and, for the nastier ones, 14 days----and only for the ones who tried for days or weeks to fight it on their own. Making drugs the go-to is why MRSA and VRE came about in the first place.


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## drfacefixer

learn2live said:


> I'm no doctor (I was a half-nurse for the Army a long, long time ago), but I completely agree. I saw the best outcomes from cases that got 7-10 day courses and, for the nastier ones, 14 days----and only for the ones who tried for days or weeks to fight it on their own. Making drugs the go-to is why MRSA and VRE came about in the first place.


True to an extent. The simplification of drug resistance is overuse - and most doctors would agree that more problems would be caused then every treated if abx were otc. But the majority of overuse is in the ICU. That's whats saving people these day. Problem is we are starting to that we are starting to see alot more of these drug resistant strains in community acquired infections. Thats the scary part.


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## AmmoSgt

OldCootHillbilly said:


> So, we all know these gotta expiration date on em. What I be wonderin is how ta keep em longer. I know the military has done some stuff ta keep there meds longer. What I been thinin bout be this: What ifin ya vac sealed these in a vac bag an then stored em ina fridge? Wonder how much longer they'd keep? Anybody got input on this er another idear?


Yeah Old Coot.. here is what you should really do, and I mean this with all sincerity.. don't let them expire.. use them.. consider it training and practice for shtf when you can't find a doctor.

Any time you feel you need antibiotics for something, pick the one you think you will need and use it as you plan to do if the SHTF... this way.. if you guess wrong, you can see a doctor and hopefully fix it / correct the mistake/ save your life. .. You won't become any better at it just waiting for SHTF, and during SHTF, if you take the wrong one and don't get any better, or maybe even get worse, or maybe even have an adverse reaction, you won't have a chance for a do over.

If you diagnosis yourself and prescribe to yourself now as a routine matter.. and anything goes wrong you can see what doctors do when you screw up.

And for those of us with kids or grandkids , we should have lots of chances to practice our diagnostic skill and CPR . keep those epi pens handy.


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## terri9630

I don't know about that Ammo. It would be better (and safer) to diagnose yourself, decide what med you THINK you need then go see your Dr and see if your right. That way you get a correct diagnosis and fresh meds to rotate in/out.


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## DrPrepper

AmmoSgt said:


> Yeah Old Coot.. here is what you should really do, and I mean this with all sincerity.. don't let them expire.. use them.. consider it training and practice for shtf when you can't find a doctor.
> 
> Any time you feel you need antibiotics for something, pick the one you think you will need and use it as you plan to do if the SHTF... this way.. if you guess wrong, you can see a doctor and hopefully fix it / correct the mistake/ save your life. .. You won't become any better at it just waiting for SHTF, and during SHTF, if you take the wrong one and don't get any better, or maybe even get worse, or maybe even have an adverse reaction, you won't have a chance for a do over.
> 
> If you diagnosis yourself and prescribe to yourself now as a routine matter.. and anything goes wrong you can see what doctors do when you screw up.
> 
> And for those of us with kids or grandkids , we should have lots of chances to practice our diagnostic skill and CPR . keep those epi pens handy.


 AmmoSgt,
I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this. Using the wrong antibiotic (or even too much of the correct antibiotic!) can cause many additional problems that can be lethal.

One problem we are seeing nowadays is _Clostridium difficile _infection (AKA C diff). This is a violent diarrheal disease characterized by multiple episodes of watery, very foul smelling diarrhea. This can lead to additional colon problems including toxic megacolon and death. Why do people get C diff? Excess antibiotics is one major reason. In addition to issues like C diff, you run the risk of not properly treating the original infection, which can also lead to conditions such as sepsis and death. There is a reason why physicians have to go through so much education and training. While we may not have the benefits of physicians after SHTF, that is NOT a good reason to forego their expertise now and experiment on yourself or your family. Just my opinion.......


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## Tacitus

learn2live said:


> I just ordered the 'no allergies' kit from www.antibioticsforsurvival.com and should have them in the next week or two.
> 
> The biggest advantage is that they come from a US physician and are not fish antibiotics, which I've read some horror stories about (exaggerated? maybe?). The ABX from the website were reasonably priced ($279 for the kit, I think) and he also has wound kits and local anesthetics for sale, too.


Is this legal?  Is he giving you a prescription to multiple medicines without an appointment or formal diagnosis???


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## AmmoSgt

DrDianaAnderson said:


> AmmoSgt,
> I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this. Using the wrong antibiotic (or even too much of the correct antibiotic!) can cause many additional problems that can be lethal.
> 
> One problem we are seeing nowadays is _Clostridium difficile _infection (AKA C diff). This is a violent diarrheal disease characterized by multiple episodes of watery, very foul smelling diarrhea. This can lead to additional colon problems including toxic megacolon and death. Why do people get C diff? Excess antibiotics is one major reason. In addition to issues like C diff, you run the risk of not properly treating the original infection, which can also lead to conditions such as sepsis and death. There is a reason why physicians have to go through so much education and training. While we may not have the benefits of physicians after SHTF, that is NOT a good reason to forego their expertise now and experiment on yourself or your family. Just my opinion.......


Oh I definitely think you have a point... but the dangers and concerns you have are exactly the same as during SHTF, but without the Doctor back up.. if there Is a serious risk of doing significant harm practicing now, then there will be the same risk of doing harm come shtf. If it is a bad idea now when you have a medical fall back of convenient doctors and hospitals .. then it's a bad idea, actually a worse idea, when you don't. If is is better to get a doctors opinion because you could kill your own child , who might of otherwise gotten well on their own in the natural progression of an infection or with the correct medicine in the correct dosages .. then you could just as easily kill your own child when a doctor is not available.

Is there any other SHTF plans that you would not dare do when society is intact because it is more likely to kill you than save you? And if there is, would you consider them good plans or bad ones?

That is all I am saying... just saying it this way avoids a whole lot of push back about how people automagically know how to do things to save lives after the SHTF.

The real way you use antibiotics comes Shtf , Is you give the child the antibiotics , then roll a 20 sided dice.. 8 or higher it isn't the antibiotic that kills her .. 15 or higher and she lives .. it really is just that easy.

Fixing C. difficile is also very easy, I read it on the internet, you just give fecal transplant from a healthy person easy peasy. 

By not ignorantly using antibiotics at all, you remove a large part of the chance of the patient dying. I simply do no understand why people think there is any significant difference between doing surgery just because you happen to have some of the surgical tools, and giving antibiotics just because you happen to have some of the antibiotics.. your chances of killing somebody because you just had to do something, because you don't feel you are just expected to stand their and watch are not all that different. Learn Supportive care and antiseptic wound care.. and leave the antibiotics in the fish tank unless you have a clear cut case of somebody's fins rotting off or their gills look milky.

Has anybody here even ever treated a pet fish with antibiotics... you know a fair number of fish die even when treated .. and you have to flush them and get new fish. That may not seem to be a disaster , maybe you have to tell your kid the fish went to live on a really nice farm with a big pond, maybe that story will work on mothers and fathers as well.


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## drfacefixer

AmmoSgt said:


> Oh I definitely think you have a point... but the dangers and concerns you have are exactly the same as during SHTF, but without the Doctor back up.. if there Is a serious risk of doing significant harm practicing now, then there will be the same risk of doing harm come shtf. If it is a bad idea now when you have a medical fall back of convenient doctors and hospitals .. then it's a bad idea, actually a worse idea, when you don't. If is is better to get a doctors opinion because you could kill your own child , who might of otherwise gotten well on their own in the natural progression of an infection or with the correct medicine in the correct dosages .. then you could just as easily kill your own child when a doctor is not available.
> 
> Is there any other SHTF plans that you would not dare do when society is intact because it is more likely to kill you than save you? And if there is, would you consider them good plans or bad ones?
> 
> That is all I am saying... just saying it this way avoids a whole lot of push back about how people automagically know how to do things to save lives after the SHTF.
> 
> The real way you use antibiotics comes Shtf , Is you give the child the antibiotics , then roll a 20 sided dice.. 8 or higher it isn't the antibiotic that kills her .. 15 or higher and she lives .. it really is just that easy.
> 
> Fixing C. difficile is also very easy, I read it on the internet, you just give fecal transplant from a healthy person easy peasy.
> 
> By not ignorantly using antibiotics at all, you remove a large part of the chance of the patient dying. I simply do no understand why people think there is any significant difference between doing surgery just because you happen to have some of the surgical tools, and giving antibiotics just because you happen to have some of the antibiotics.. your chances of killing somebody because you just had to do something, because you don't feel you are just expected to stand their and watch are not all that different. Learn Supportive care and antiseptic wound care.. and leave the antibiotics in the fish tank unless you have a clear cut case of somebody's fins rotting off or their gills look milky.
> 
> Has anybody here even ever treated a pet fish with antibiotics... you know a fair number of fish die even when treated .. and you have to flush them and get new fish. That may not seem to be a disaster , maybe you have to tell your kid the fish went to live on a really nice farm with a big pond, maybe that story will work on mothers and fathers as well.


Sticky subject - infections can and do go bad very very quickly. Just yesterday there was a story about a dental infection that went septic in less than a week and killed a healthy 26 y/o . It still happens. I just saw a facial infection become a brain abscess this month after a course of oral PCN didn't do much ( good first choice). 4 weeks later of multiple IV antibiotics and 5 trips to the OR for multiple incision and drainage, things are getting better.

Ofcourse, Its mainly the hard to treat infections that usually make it to me, but one of the biggest issues I have to fight other than time until the patient is referred to me is also the problem of inappropriate antibiotic selection or underdosing. If you choose poorly, you are actively selecting or (breeding) certain potentially more virulent bacteria by killing of their competitors. You change the progression of the infection.

It may be a costly experiment. If you go try to treat yourself and things go worse, not many physicians will just give it a go with a different antibiotic. You've already had your empiric trial. At minimum you are going to be paying for cultures or further testings. If you're sick looking at all, your likely going to be admitted for IV therapy and paying for the big dog drugs.

Also, You also have to remember with fish abx your playing cards with a quarter deck. You have most of the commonly antibiotics for skin infections and URIs and one that is so so at genital urinary but most are just general overlap in these areas. Abdominal wounds, pneumonias, sepsis, deep space infections.... you're likely going to soon be a sideways circling fish without more involved help.

If you are even considering spending money on this area treat it like anything else and keep it with in the limits of reason. You might get some sutures, a needle driver and be ready for "surgery" suturing a cut. In that case, maybe some keflex on hand isn't a bad idea. But if anyone really thinks that they are going to pick up some hemostats, a copy of and old copy of Marice king Surgery and remove a bullet or an appendix...good luck with that. The patient probably has a better fighting chance is you let them be. I don't care if you were an EMT, an medic, or an 18 delta. The training you did was supportive roles until the patient could get to an elevated treatment platform. Great training, but you probably didn't get to see the full treatment and recovery of the patient.

Lastly, do remember that practicing on kids could could result in child abuse/neglect charges or even greater criminal charges.

PS. My patients tend to do well, but you are right. The fish and birds seem to still only have a 50:50 chance with fish abx. I wrote an old post on that a while back. Fish usually get secondary bacterial infections from a primary parasitic infection which is why REAL fish antibiotics usually are dosed completely different - they are dosed for the size of the treatment tank (not for the size of the fish and definitely not in the human doses of thomas labs) They also contain multiple antiparasitics as their primary medication.

I picked up a 10 day course of amoxicillin today at the pharmacy cash - anybody care to take a guess at what the cost was?


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## AmmoSgt

About those sutures ... if you can't sew and tie the correct knots, don't. Get staples..  for any stitching that would be reasonable ( in closing a cut) staples are a lot easier on everybody. And sometimes you don't want to close a deep cut.. need to know when and why

another alternative is glue http://morethanjustsurviving.com/super-glue-for-cuts/

https://www.amazon.com/Stapler-stapler-staples-remover-tweezer/dp/B00M9G3ZXW






oh about that next level taking away the patient and never telling you what happened to them I hate that hate that.. 5 cuts/ slashes on the face with a straight razor, got both eyeballs, help didn't arrive for 15 very very long minutes, was off duty , all I had was a fresh sealed pack of bar napkins and two coats, one a fur coat, I commandeered from gawking passer-bys on a frozen sidewalk one night right outside a bar.. never found out what became of him.. 40 years ago and I still wonder


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## terri9630

drfacefixer said:


> I picked up a 10 day course of amoxicillin today at the pharmacy cash - anybody care to take a guess at what the cost was?


$6.95 if you cross into Mexico.


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## learn2live

All of these are good points. My plan is a little bit of a hybrid: assuming I need to see a doctor for something (which I "usually" don't), I'm going to check my references, figure out what it is, then see the expert to confirm my diagnosis (kinda like being back in green  ). If/when they prescribe something, it will replace what I have in my stash to keep everything rotated.

As for legality, as I understand it, all you need is a prescription.

As for using them on kids, see first comment above. Until the SHTF, I'm not playing doctor--just learning from them. That's why they get the big bucks and the huge student loan bills! :-D


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## drfacefixer

terri9630 said:


> $6.95 if you cross into Mexico.


I paid 1.47 cash. Which isn't a surprise. Last I checked my cost for a 500 count dispense from a medical supply chain was about $11. The fish people make a killing in their markup.


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## drfacefixer

learn2live said:


> That's why they get the big bucks and the huge student loan bills! :-D


Tell me about it. It's pretty much a second mortgage.

AMMOSgt Staples are great, but you always want to close deeper layers before . otherwise your staples will tear through or you haven't treated dead space you are begging for a hematoma or for deeper layers to push through. That is unless, you do need to keep the wound open. Drainage, wound cavitation, necrosis etc...

The only time that I really see derma bond work well, is on wounds that are on the fence as to whether or not the really need sutures. To work well it really needs to be a dry field. Most of the time to get it controlled, I need to use cautery or epinephrine infiltration, so it pretty much defeats to purpose of sutures - with one major exception. With screaming kids, it's quick and you don't have to go back and remove anything. ER docs can get away with it because they don't have to deal with the followup and permanent scar questions. I do. That's why kids that can't sit still get the ketamine.

The other time we use dermabond a lot of over surgical puncture wounds or over sutures we don't want picked at or to come untied. I almost always consider it an adjunct.


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## AmmoSgt

Yeah.. it's always hard call to put out medical information on line in a post. even if it includes the "when not to's" same with antibiotics or OTC aspirin or anything they all have "when not to's" but who reads those.. boring .. I want to fix something, now, heal it, and be a hero...


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## terri9630

drfacefixer said:


> I paid 1.47 cash. Which isn't a surprise. Last I checked my cost for a 500 count dispense from a medical supply chain was about $11. The fish people make a killing in their markup.


That's $6.95 total. To get a prescription to get that $1.47 prescription I'd have to pay a $40 Dr copay. That increases your price quite a bit.


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## drfacefixer

terri9630 said:


> That's $6.95 total. To get a prescription to get that $1.47 prescription I'd have to pay a $40 Dr copay. That increases your price quite a bit.


You don't pay the doctor to write a prescription. You pay the Doctor for their advice.

The point was that Amoxicillin is about $0.017 a pill and the fish people are marking it up tremendously because they are skirting around the FDA by using the exotic pets clause. Its a small market of mainly preppers and fools (those that are constantly treating themselves) If it was bigger and started causing problems it would start to tighten up. As it is now, its gets about an article a year when journalists find a story of near un-treatable abx resistance because some fool self medicated with fish antibiotics and didn't know what they were doing.

Your're probably semi-safe with antibiotics in mexico. But counterfeit meds are a big business  be careful. My mom was getting her HTN meds from there for a while and they only seemed to control her blood pressure when she was in the States...getting her meds here. funny how that works. I would almost prefer her to take blood pressure medication for fish. When will Thomas labs start making that?


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## terri9630

drfacefixer said:


> You don't pay the doctor to write a prescription. You pay the Doctor for their advice.
> 
> The point was that Amoxicillin is about $0.017 a pill and the fish people are marking it up tremendously because they are skirting around the FDA by using the exotic pets clause. Its a small market of mainly preppers and fools (those that are constantly treating themselves) If it was bigger and started causing problems it would start to tighten up. As it is now, its gets about an article a year when journalists find a story of near un-treatable abx resistance because some fool self medicated with fish antibiotics and didn't know what they were doing.
> 
> Your're probably semi-safe with antibiotics in mexico. But counterfeit meds are a big business  be careful. My mom was getting her HTN meds from there for a while and they only seemed to control her blood pressure when she was in the States...getting her meds here. funny how that works. I would almost prefer her to take blood pressure medication for fish. When will Thomas labs start making that?


You may not be "paying for the prescription" but you can't get the med without the prescription and you sure won't get the prescription with out paying the Dr so it's kind of the same thing.


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## drfacefixer

terri9630 said:


> You may not be "paying for the prescription" but you can't get the med without the prescription and you sure won't get the prescription with out paying the Dr so it's kind of the same thing.


Well that's under the assumption that the primary goal is getting the medication which is a poor way to go about it. If you wanted rocephin are you going to go in there and make up bogus stories about allergies and what this or that didn't work for you?


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## Caribou

drfacefixer said:


> Well that's under the assumption that the primary goal is getting the medication which is a poor way to go about it. If you wanted rocephin are you going to go in there and make up bogus stories about allergies and what this or that didn't work for you?


Sometimes you pay for advice and other times you pay for permission. Some of my conditions I've had often enough or long enough I know what I need. Sometimes the doc has one idea and I explain what I want and why. I usually get what I need. It may take a personal history lesson. I know what I need because I paid for the advice many times before and now all I need is permission. I know that I'm better off taking antibiotics for a longer period than most because otherwise I wind up having to take another regimen.


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## terri9630

drfacefixer said:


> Well that's under the assumption that the primary goal is getting the medication which is a poor way to go about it. If you wanted rocephin are you going to go in there and make up bogus stories about allergies and what this or that didn't work for you?


I don't need to make up stories. I have enough allergies to share with everyone here. I've been on albuterol and epi pens and various allergy meds long enough to know I need them without yet another doctors opinion. But I still have to go in and pay to get that new prescription. Fortunately most of my allergy meds are now otc.


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## journeythree

I have used these antibiotics from California Vet Supply. No problems with them. 
A PDR or Medscape app will tell you which antibiotics are indicated for certain
Bacterial strains or conditions.


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## azrancher

terri9630 said:


> I've been on albuterol and epi pens and various allergy meds long enough to know I need them without yet another doctors opinion.


How often have you used your epi pens?

*Rancher*


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## terri9630

azrancher said:


> How often have you used your epi pens?
> 
> *Rancher*


Twice. First was a very bad day at the park. Stung by 3 bumble bees spent a week in the hospital. I was 9. I also used it during my first asthma attack at 15. I was at a track meet and my coach thought I had been stung. Fortunately it was the right med.

Edit.. The first time was with a needle in the ER. Not with the auto injector. That didn't come out until I was in high-school.


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## azrancher

terri9630 said:


> Twice. First was a very bad day at the park. Stung by 3 bumble bees spent a week in the hospital. I was 9. I also used it during my first asthma attack at 15. I was at a track meet and my coach thought I had been stung. Fortunately it was the right med.


OK understand now, you just made it sound like you used them regularly, which normally puts you in the ER each time you use it. I had them, but forgot all about them and called 911 instead, 3 days in the hospital for nothing more than cleaning up the hops vines in my garden... Oh by the way store them at room temperature, I finally read the label.

*Rancher*


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## terri9630

azrancher said:


> OK understand now, you just made it sound like you used them regularly, which normally puts you in the ER each time you use it. I had them, but forgot all about them and called 911 instead, 3 days in the hospital for nothing more than cleaning up the hops vines in my garden... Oh by the way store them at room temperature, I finally read the label.
> 
> *Rancher*


The albuterol is regular during the dusty pollen season. The epipen isnt regular, but some allergies don't go away.

Wait, wait, wait!! A man read directions?! SHTF! Everybody bug out!


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## azrancher

terri9630 said:


> Wait, wait, wait!! A man read directions?! SHTF! Everybody bug out!


I was in the reading room (where I store my epi-pen), and I was bored...

*Rancher*


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## drfacefixer

Here is some great info on Epi in case you haven't ever seen it. Epi breaks down sporadically after its expiration date. Some epipens may work and some may be duds with only <60% of the original concentration after expiration. True, Its better than nothing. But this is a life saving drug and I want my best chance at saving a life - be it mine or another. I personally don't take chances with it and just replace them. I've had to use it multiple times on myself and multiple times in codes stemming from anesthesia related allergic reactions. I prefer the autoinjectors for my kids, but carry a syringe and a 1 amp ampule for myself. The 1mg vial have 3 doses and it the size of a AAA battery. It's a few extra steps so its not for everyone in an emergency situation.


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