# off grid systems



## smaj100

We have been slowly working on our property, we are having a barn built in the next few weeks. A steel structure for the horses storage and until we get the house built a possible BOL. We recently checked on having electric brought to the property and it's gonna run me $20k+... 

So i've started looking into an off grid solar system. I've narrowed it down to two systems. I'm looking for something that is expandable so once the house is complete it can all be tied together and added to. I'm looking at a 3kw system +/- for less than half of what the electric company wants. 

It'll need to run lights in the barn, a small fridge, well pump (it's a deep one 250') and then the house once it's complete.


Magnum Energy MS4448PAE Inverter/Charger

Outback FLEXpower ONE FP1 GVFX3648

Does anyone have any personal or professional experience with either of the units above? Space for the panels isn't an issue wether I roof mount or ground mount. I know for efficiency the pole mounted with a tracker will increase the efficiency but for panel protection the roof mount option will be stronger. (we live in tornado alley and see strong storms on a regular basis.) 

I have a small wind turbine that will be added to the system to help charge. I plan on using Trojan T105 6v 225aH batteries in a 24v or 48v system.


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## Coastal

A friend of mine sells solar and he said to go with Kyocera panels rather than Chinese stuff. I would watch for the quality of the actual panels.


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## smaj100

The magnum energy system comes with Astro-energy 250w panels, the outback system comes with Canadian made 250w panels.

For an extra $1k I can modify the magnum package and opt for US made solarworld 265w panels.


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## Waterboy

You can start with a small portable system like this and work your way up. It is complete with inverter.
http://www.motherearthnews.com/renewable-energy/build-solar-cart-zbcz1311.aspx


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## Coastal

smaj100 said:


> The magnum energy system comes with Astro-energy 250w panels, the outback system comes with Canadian made 250w panels.
> 
> For an extra $1k I can modify the magnum package and opt for US made solarworld 265w panels.


I would consider that for sure. One of the things he mentioned with lesser quality panels is the output voltage and/or wattage is not as advertised, and one particular brand had some weird 480v output, so the guy had to spend way more money on an inverter, and now it wasn't compatible with any other panels and was a big mistake. (I don't remember the specifics, but it was something along those lines)


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## cowboyhermit

I don't think I would ever run grid power to a site again, crazy to pay all that money for the opportunity to pay bills forever imo. 

Not to contradict Coastal but just as a second opinion, I buy quality when other people buy Chinese, I doubt anyone on here makes more of an effort to buy from their country or continent. I have worked with hundreds of panels from many manufacturers and have no choice but to say from an economic perspective the best choice is the lowest $/W in the full sized metal frame panels. Panels are just so rarely an issue.

I have looked into so many "systems" over the years, they range from rip-off to only moderately over priced when you break them down to the component parts you are getting for your $. I always find that it is possible to build a better system for less $ by finding parts that are the best fit but to be fair I am sure there are positives to having it all in a box as well.

With the $/W of panels these days I think you are on the right track by avoiding a tracker, they are at best marginally economical while adding a considerable point of failure into your system.

Don't forget to consider a DC system as well, many people with solar wish they could "do it all over again" and incorporate a DC system into their setup and buildings from the beginning. I have retrofitted several systems by adding a circuit, usually 12V and it has always been worth it economically despite being a total PITA to do after the fact, even when it has meant converting the whole DC side down to 12V it saved money in the end.

Sorry for the rambling, no I don't have experience with those particular models, or with packaged systems in general.
I get excited thinking about the possibilities open to someone in your position


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## Coastal

cowboyhermit said:


> I don't think I would ever run grid power to a site again, crazy to pay all that money for the opportunity to pay bills forever imo.
> 
> Not to contradict Coastal but just as a second opinion, I buy quality when other people buy Chinese, I doubt anyone on here makes more of an effort to buy from their country or continent. I have worked with hundreds of panels from many manufacturers and have no choice but to say from an economic perspective the best choice is the lowest $/W in the full sized metal frame panels. Panels are just so rarely an issue.
> 
> I have looked into so many "systems" over the years, they range from rip-off to only moderately over priced when you break them down to the component parts you are getting for your $. I always find that it is possible to build a better system for less $ by finding parts that are the best fit but to be fair I am sure there are positives to having it all in a box as well.
> 
> With the $/W of panels these days I think you are on the right track by avoiding a tracker, they are at best marginally economical while adding a considerable point of failure into your system.
> 
> Don't forget to consider a DC system as well, many people with solar wish they could "do it all over again" and incorporate a DC system into their setup and buildings from the beginning. I have retrofitted several systems by adding a circuit, usually 12V and it has always been worth it economically despite being a total PITA to do after the fact, even when it has meant converting the whole DC side down to 12V it saved money in the end.
> 
> Sorry for the rambling, no I don't have experience with those particular models, or with packaged systems in general.
> I get excited thinking about the possibilities open to someone in your position


I am saving up for a 160 acre property that has no power, so solar would be mandatory. You seem to have experience, from doing various calculations, it seems a 5kw DC system would be the way to go. Are there any good "kit" type setups you would recommend? Or is it best to piece it together?


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## cowboyhermit

Coastal said:


> I am saving up for a 160 acre property that has no power, so solar would be mandatory. You seem to have experience, from doing various calculations, it seems a 5kw DC system would be the way to go. Are there any good "kit" type setups you would recommend? Or is it best to piece it together?


Personally I have never found the "systems" to be the way to go, I have always found it works out better to buy the components separately. I don't want to discourage anyone from going the package route if that is what they feel comfortable with and like the o.p was saying it will still be less than the price of an instal

These systems are not as complicated to build as many seem to think, especially without a grid tie; panels, charge controller, batteries, inverter, and wire is 90% of what you need.


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## smaj100

I've already toyed with the idea of adding dc wiring as part of the setup especially for lights and such. I think that will help keep the inverter size down to something more manageable. 

I think like CH stated quality will be my driving force. I'm just hoping for some general recommendations or real world experiences with the products.


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## mosquitomountainman

We live totally off-grid and have for years. What I'd do differently now is go with an MPPT charge controller and higher voltage panels. Next, I'd go to a higher voltage battery bank (probably 24 volt _minimum_) and get a larger inverter that will produce up to 220 volts. I could set this system up for less than we have in our present system and it would be far more efficient.

I'd say screw the DC stuff. It isn't worth the extra work and wiring and you have a much better selection of AC appliances available. (We do have 12 volts available but the only thing powered by it is our HAM radio.)

But then that's just my opinion after living off-grid for the last ten years with a 12 volt panel, charge controller, inverter, and battery system.

And don't forget solar tracking ... _in some locations _it can really increase your power output.


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## mosquitomountainman

smaj100 said:


> I've already toyed with the idea of adding dc wiring as part of the setup especially for lights and such. I think that will help keep the inverter size down to something more manageable.
> 
> I think like CH stated quality will be my driving force. I'm just hoping for some general recommendations or real world experiences with the products.


Your inverter needs to be the most efficient you can afford. It also needs to be adequate to run the well pump which I'm assuming is 220 volts. I prefer those with the battery charger built in.


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## NATIVEBONES

Myth is it true or not so lost are they


Survive and Thrive


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## ronald_stufflebeam

*Steven Harris come highly recommended*

Steven Harris and his sight http://solar1234.com/ comes highly recommended.


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## smaj100

Mosquito man, those are some of the tips i'm looking for thanks. The magnum inverter is a 110-220 capable unit they can be stacked in parallel to increase output as needed for larger loads. 

I'm about 75% sure I will use a pole mounted sun tracking system since I know it will vastly improve the output vs a fixed roof mount.

Keep the ideas and recommendations coming.


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## cowboyhermit

That's why alternative energy is so interesting, there are so many ways to accomplish the desired objective. I have well over 10 years of dealing with solar personally and professionally but to be fair things have changed a lot from that far back. I have worked on more systems than I can remember, the majority being smaller industry/agricultural installs of 1kW or less but more than a few larger setups as well, including our own.

And yet it seems like mosquitomountainman and I have more or less come to opposite conclusions. The system that he describes (higher VDC, no dc circuit, solar trackers) are more or less the ones that I have been called upon to "fix"(convert to 12V and add a circuit etc) and it has really been a pain for me so that probably has a lot to do with it. Retrofitting is so much more difficult than new construction unless things are done to allow easy changes (extra conduit for one). There are so many factors that go into the decisions though. For instance a DC diaphragm well pump with which I have had very good experiences, can take loads of strain off of your inverter and system in general however 250ft would be at the maximum of their range.


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## mosquitomountainman

cowboyhermit said:


> That's why alternative energy is so interesting, there are so many ways to accomplish the desired objective. I have well over 10 years of dealing with solar personally and professionally but to be fair things have changed a lot from that far back. I have worked on more systems than I can remember, the majority being smaller industry/agricultural installs of 1kW or less but more than a few larger setups as well, including our own.
> 
> And yet it seems like mosquitomountainman and I have more or less come to opposite conclusions. The system that he describes (higher VDC, no dc circuit, solar trackers) are more or less the ones that I have been called upon to "fix"(convert to 12V and add a circuit etc) and it has really been a pain for me so that probably has a lot to do with it. Retrofitting is so much more difficult than new construction unless things are done to allow easy changes (extra conduit for one). There are so many factors that go into the decisions though. For instance a DC diaphragm well pump with which I have had very good experiences, can take loads of strain off of your inverter and system in general however 250ft would be at the maximum of their range.


This is one of the keys to a good off-grid system. There is no "one-size/type fits all." I have a 12 volt system I put together in pieces. Our neighbor has a higher voltage system. I lived in their house for a month house-sitting while they were on vacation so I have experience with both systems and theirs is superior in many ways. It's also cheaper to set up a higher voltage system because wire sizes are smaller and the per-watt price on panels goes down compared to panels designed for 12 volt systems. The charge controller costs more but that price is more than offset by the saving on solar panels. Knowing what I know now I would do things differently if I had to do it over.

I think the inverter is very important. It's one place a person shouldn't scrimp.

We helped a single woman get set up off-grid and I could have screamed when she let the guy selling the solar stuff talked her into not getting a generator. He sold her an inverter that as too small for her well pump then talked her out of a generator that would run the pump. Additionally, we get a lot of cloudy days in the winter and she was having to haul water several months of the year. It was so senseless. A person should never take advice from someone who isn't experienced at off-grid life. You just don't understand the complexities unless you've lived it.

I'm sure either of our methods would work in the end. I have my experiences and you have yours and we've both drawn conclusions based on those experiences. There really is more than one way to skin a cat.

Another thing that's very important to off-grid life is adapting to being off-grid. IMO that's where most people fail. The people I mentioned above have hooked up to the grid now. They just never understood off-grid living (made some bad electrical decisions) and it didn't work for them. (You can't run a pump type heating system off-grid in northern MT during the winter. There just isn't enough sunlight!)


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## cowboyhermit

One of the things I have to explain a lot is that if you simply want to duplicate a grid powered house then it will cost a fortune whereas with a few alterations a system that costs thousands less will do just fine.
The price of the big panels really is amazing (under $1/W ) whereas nominal 12V panels are still around $1-1.50/W for the most part. It should be mentioned though, with a good charge controller (mppt) there is no issue connecting high voltage panels to a 12V system (of course check your specs).
It is true about the larger wire size but in many cases the cost/line loss is minimal, especially if the setup is planned properly from the start (new construction). At least with a 12V setup if you have to change to higher voltage then all existing cables will work excellent, on the other hand if, like me, you have to change from high voltage to low then all cables need to be upgraded


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## mosquitomountainman

cowboyhermit said:


> One of the things I have to explain a lot is that if you simply want to duplicate a grid powered house then it will cost a fortune whereas with a few alterations a system that costs thousands less will do just fine.
> The price of the big panels really is amazing (under $1/W ) whereas nominal 12V panels are still around $1-1.50/W for the most part. It should be mentioned though, with a good charge controller (mppt) there is no issue connecting high voltage panels to a 12V system (of course check your specs).
> It is true about the larger wire size but in many cases the cost/line loss is minimal, especially if the setup is planned properly from the start (new construction). At least with a 12V setup if you have to change to higher voltage then all existing cables will work excellent, on the other hand if, like me, you have to change from high voltage to low then all cables need to be upgraded


You are correct about the MPPT controller being adjustable for 12 volt systems.

The advantage of a higher voltage battery bank is in the inverters. 2400 watts is about the largest practical inverter for a 12 volt system. (Yes, I know you can get larger inverters for 12 volt systems but I don't really like them.) If you want a larger output inverter it's easier to find a good one for a 24. 36 or 48 volt system. If you ever want to run major power equipment (like a welder or air compressor) from your solar power system you're going to want a larger inverter not only for the increased watt rating but for a better duty cycle. If a 2400 watt inverter can run at maximum output for fifteen minutes before shutting down due to over heating you'll only get 15 minutes at 2400 watts of power. If you have a 4800 watt inverter and draw 2400 watts of continuous power it will run for a much longer time period before overheating. Obviously you don't want to make a habit of running large loads on a solar power system but I don't run my compressor or welder all day, every day. They're usually used for a couple of hours (not continuous) about once a month. The battery bank and solar panels can recover from that.

The bad thing about higher voltage battery banks is that you'll need a special battery charger to recharge them after a period of no sun. (We get a lot of cloudy days at our MT home in winter when our electrical needs are highest.) Since I like inverters with the charger built in that isn't much of a concern for me. If your inverter doesn't also function as a charger it might be a problem.

I also don't like the idea of dual voltage wiring in my home. I don't think it's dangerous if done correctly but low voltage systems aren't real efficient overall if you have to stretch out a lot of wire and it's easier to find appliances that use 110 volt AC current. So why bother with a dual set of wiring for your home?


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## cowboyhermit

mosquitomountainman said:


> I don't think it's dangerous if done correctly but low voltage systems aren't real efficient overall if you have to stretch out a lot of wire and it's easier to find appliances that use 110 volt AC current. So why bother with a dual set of wiring for your home?


First of all the wiring required to keep line loss minimized is dependant on the load that will be drawn. For instance we use power over ethernet (poe) to power everything from lights, routers, cameras etc. and this is over hundreds of feet on a couple 24 AWG wires. Most of the dc loads that are the most benefit and in the house are low draw, continuous ones.

Pretty much anything electronic runs on dc power. With an inverter you are taking dc, converting to ac, then back to dc (with an adapter). Adapters are often prone to failure. In contrast with a dc system there is only line losses, which if sized adequately are no higher that with an ac system. 
Lights, especially leds work very well with dc.
Fans and pumps work great with dc. A diaphragm well pump for instance is amazingly efficient, I don't think there is an ac/inverter system that is more efficient.
Battery chargers of all types function very well with dc, since a charger's primary function is to produce dc current, for instance anything USB is dc or power tool batteries.

So the end result is that for many people they are only left with a few devices that for one reason or another are more economical running on an inverter, this helps conserve power by letting the inverter "sleep" more and also allows for a smaller sized inverter ($). Some are even able to turn off their inverter much of the time. It also allows for everything on dc circuits to keep operating in the event of an inverter failure, something that does happen regularly. The dc side has one less, significant point of failure. From a preparedness perspective just having all my lights, communications, monitors and security equipment functioning in the event of an inverter failure is enough to justify it for me.


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## goshengirl

I'm loving this thread.


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## mosquitomountainman

cowboyhermit said:


> First of all the wiring required to keep line loss minimized is dependant on the load that will be drawn. For instance we use power over ethernet (poe) to power everything from lights, routers, cameras etc. and this is over hundreds of feet on a couple 24 AWG wires. Most of the dc loads that are the most benefit and in the house are low draw, continuous ones.
> 
> Pretty much anything electronic runs on dc power. With an inverter you are taking dc, converting to ac, then back to dc (with an adapter). Adapters are often prone to failure. In contrast with a dc system there is only line losses, which if sized adequately are no higher that with an ac system.
> Lights, especially leds work very well with dc.
> Fans and pumps work great with dc. A diaphragm well pump for instance is amazingly efficient, I don't think there is an ac/inverter system that is more efficient.
> Battery chargers of all types function very well with dc, since a charger's primary function is to produce dc current, for instance anything USB is dc or power tool batteries.
> 
> So the end result is that for many people they are only left with a few devices that for one reason or another are more economical running on an inverter, this helps conserve power by letting the inverter "sleep" more and also allows for a smaller sized inverter ($). Some are even able to turn off their inverter much of the time. It also allows for everything on dc circuits to keep operating in the event of an inverter failure, something that does happen regularly. The dc side has one less, significant point of failure. From a preparedness perspective just having all my lights, communications, monitors and security equipment functioning in the event of an inverter failure is enough to justify it for me.


You've made some good points regarding DC power but in our case they don't apply for the most part. We seldom run out of power except on the long cloudy days of winter. We run about a thousand watts on our home panels (110 watts on the U-Haul motorhome conversion and 330 on our big motorhome) and they provide enough for our needs but then we're ultra conservative in the use of electricity.

We've had one main inverter fail (not counting the small portable which the kids usually messed up by connecting them backward ... multiple times:gaah and that was due to a lightning strike that came back through the telephone line. We run electric refrigerators in the cabin and large motorhome. The only failures we've ever had on the charging adapters for electronics is the failure to find them. In our case I don't see much to gain by running dual electric lines throughout the cabin.

What kind of inverter(s) do you run?


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## Coastal

I'd love to hear some brand names you guys recommend for inverters.


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## cowboyhermit

When working with electronics and computers you would be surprised to see how often adapters fail, by far the most replaced parts on desktops and laptops is the power supply, although batteries are a close second. I have grown very unfond of wall warts and adapters mostly because of the number I have had to replace (many sites, mostly not my own), but also because they are little energy vampires, constantly sucking juice from the system.

I have experience with Outback (not much), Xantrex, Morningstar (little ones), and a whole host of less well known brands. On the whole I have not found significant differences in failure rates but it sure burns a lot more when the expensive ones die. I think those three brands have a fine reputation though.

I had to look back to make sure I never said inverters were "prone" to failure, that would be a stretch. Alternative energy systems are typically quite resilient and I don't want to imply otherwise. Many of our off-grid sites have more uptime than grid connected ones. However inverters do indeed fail, and when put up against other components of a solar system such as the panels (pretty much nil failure rate, we have one that was shot with a shotgun and is still functioning), the batteries (very rarely fail to a state of non-functioning), and the charge controller then inverters in my experience are by far the most likely to leave one with a non-functioning system.

As far as brands go, Morningstar controllers have performed remarkably well for us imo, nothing bad to say about that brand except maybe price but it has been worth it for us.

In terms of inverters I will have to admit one thing though, I have a 3000W modified sine wave inverter I picked up at Canadian tire when I had a good one fail, for the price (less than $200) I wasn't risking or expecting much. Well that was years ago and that inverter is still bouncing around on the service truck, performing like a champ. I picked up a backup when they went on sale again because the price was so good. So while even the best ones do fail, it is not like they are unreliable.


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## LincTex

cowboyhermit said:


> I had to look back to make sure I never said inverters were "prone" to failure, that would be a stretch.
> 
> In terms of inverters I will have to admit one thing though,.... I picked up a backup when they went on sale again because the price was so good. So while even the best ones do fail, it is not like they are unreliable.


I have some that are near 20 years old ("Power-to-Go") that still work. I have some that have popped the little "overload" breaker at least 100 times and still work fine. I don't know why I see so many on eBay being sold for "parts". I would like to buy a couple just to see what went wrong and to see if they can be fixed.


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## cowboyhermit

LincTex said:


> I don't know why I see so many on eBay being sold for "parts". I would like to buy a couple just to see what went wrong and to see if they can be fixed.


Never been able to really narrow down the failures to a single cause but haven't taken all that many apart to figure it out. I know a few had fan failures, at least one of those was caused by "foreign debris" (bad idea mr. mouse), thermal protection _should_ have not allowed the inverters to fail but :dunno: 
Others were subject to physical shock (ie; shack tipping over), everything else in the shack worked fine, including AGM batteries that burnt holes in the steel and the controller, inverter=kaput. Lightning and power surges incidents have been similar. Really it's not so much that inverters are delicate, it is just that the other components are so robust.


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## smaj100

You could always create a few of these.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Variable-DC-Power-Supply-for-15/

Especially with plenty of 12v power available..


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## cowboyhermit

mike_dippert said:


> So, given your dislike of wall warts, how do you propose regulating voltage to the devices that use them, if you're on a DC only system? For instance, I have a 13v radio, 8v cordless mouse charger, 16.5v MacBook charger, 5v phone chargers. And then there's the endless varieties of connectors.


This might be getting a bit off topic, but there are several ways to go about using various devices with DC power.
First of all a step down DC-DC converter is a very simple and compact device, a good example of one people are familiar with is the tiny usb plugs that are used with vehicle "cigarette lighter" sockets (maybe not the best example because many are very poor quality). 
Many devices are already available in DC configuration (particularly 12V) for instance my Makita power tools have a 12V charger as an option, 12V universal laptop chargers are also available that output whatever voltage you need.

Personally, what I have come to believe is a good system for me is one that incorporates USB (5V DC) for the majority of small draw electronics, this is easily achieved through simple, cheap step down converters. When I buy something new, usb charging is a big selling point as I never need a charger, just a cord. USB is also expanding to charging laptops and other higher draw items, even using 12V, many places are looking at how this will change the way power is distributed in buildings (and out) in the future.
Then for higher draw items and longer runs, 12V DC can be used to run most everything else from well pumps to the aforementioned chargers, lights, cameras, ventilation etc. Standard flat panel monitors can be found running on dc, the list is long. Also many electronics are able to function within a range of voltages so it is worth looking at the specs, that 13V radio might well run perfectly on a nominal 12V system.
The few remaining items not running on either of the standard voltages are run on an inverter or generator when they are wanted.

As was mentioned before, there is no "right" way to do this stuff, just lots of alternatives and possibilities.


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## mosquitomountainman

My favorite are the Xantrex inverter/chargers. There are some other very good ones out there though. We have an old 800 watt Trace (which is now Xantrex) Inverter/charger that's been a very reliable performer for many years (we bought it used about ten years ago). We also have a couple of 1,000 watt inverters. One Xantrex and one of another brand. both work fine and sell for around $100.00. The one the lightning strike blew was a 1,000 watt Xantrex inverter. The strike ran through the phone line. It took out our inverter and the neighbor's inverters on each side of us. Total distance was almost a mile from one end to the other. The lightning hit a tree about 100 yards from our cabin and traveled about 1/2 mile each direction. The ironic thing is that there was no one living on that property. It hit where they buried an old mobile home frame. We replaced the blown inverter with a new identical model but the new unit is not nearly as good as the old one.


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## LincTex

mosquitomountainman said:


> And don't forget solar tracking ... _in some locations _it can really increase your power output.


I keep thinking there has to some sort of clockwork type of mechanism (grandfather clock weights & chains, a cuckoo clock that pops every hour) that doesn't require electricity to move the panels every hour.


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## mosquitomountainman

LincTex said:


> I keep thinking there has to some sort of clockwork type of mechanism (grandfather clock weights & chains, a cuckoo clock that pops every hour) that doesn't require electricity to move the panels every hour.


They use a 12 volt motor and photo sensors to keep them centered on the sunlight. The Mother Earth News used to have plans for building your own. (There's is s single plane system which world pretty good. They don't gain a lot in some locations but in other locations you can increase the output of your panels by 40 to 60 percent. Ours are on a pole that we turn manually throughout the day.


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## LincTex

mosquitomountainman said:


> Ours are on a pole that we turn manually throughout the day.


Exactly!

With some rope, pulleys, weights, basic clock wheel and tog, etc. and a timer device (like a cuckoo clock) that activates every hour, you could make a non-electric tracker. All it needs to do is move another notch to the west every hour.


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## goshengirl

Do you all have any specific brand names that you prefer for panels? (thanks for the input on inverters)


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## cowboyhermit

goshengirl said:


> Do you all have any specific brand names that you prefer for panels? (thanks for the input on inverters)


I know I already gave my opinion earlier in the thread but I really think the brands are not very critical in this area. If given the opportunity I would go with Kyocera, Sharp, Canadian solar, Bp, G.E, really any of the big companies, over a small or unknown brand. However, I really can't justify paying much more for a brand name, based on experience. As long as you are comparing apples to apples ie; polycrystalline not amorphous, large aluminum frames, etc. then the brand doesn't seem to make much difference. Probably with a big name your warranty would be more reliable (many years down the road) but it is not likely you will need warranty on a panel imho.

I go for lowest $/W within a certain spec range, don't care what brand they give me, in fact they have a "may substitute" policy at some places anyways.


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## LincTex

goshengirl said:


> Do you all have any specific brand names that you prefer for panels? (thanks for the input on inverters)


I have used these with good results:

http://www.topraysolar.com/roofmodule.aspx

http://www.ebay.com/usr/minidiscmini (same place as Solar Blvd)

http://www.solarblvd.com/Solar-Panels-&-Systems/c1/index.html


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## mosquitomountainman

We have Sharp and Kyrocera. Both have worked well for us. I agree with cowboyhermit though. I don't think brand is all that important as long as it's a recognized name. You can even make your own panels if you want. (There are books about how to do this.)


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## FatTire

When I was still in California I worked as a foreman on an 8.5 megawatt solar pv construction project. I got to work with several people with a lot of experience (15 years and more) in solar installations. I asked a lot of questions, including a lot about brand names. The concensus then was that while Sharp was considered to be 'the best', it was exxentaily because Sharp was one of the first manufacturers to get to a high level. Since then all the big brands, and many of the smaller ones had caught up. 

Only one brand was singled out as being absolute garbage. Solindra. Terrible company, terrible manufacturing, and technology that wasnt ready for the market. No wonder the government subsidized them...


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## goshengirl

Thanks, guys. I appreciate it.

I hear what you're saying about the brand names not being necessary. This is just all so unfamiliar to me, and having some starting points to work with as I start this research is very helpful. We're a long way off before we're ready to do anything and we have a lot of learning to do. 

I remember when we first got our RV (travel trailer). Setting up camp, breaking down camp, all the systems - there was so much new stuff to learn that my head hurt. I had to make checklists. Now everything is second nature, we could do it in our sleep, and it's hard to remember what was so confusing. I'm sure we'll get there with our off-grid systems, too - we're just still in the murky, learning stage.


----------



## smaj100

DECISIONS DECISIONS!!!!

My local farm store, has 6V Exide golf cart batteries 185AH on sale for $69 ea. To me this sounds like a great deal price wise, and IMHO lots of folks are using these batteries for solar/wind systems. I know some folks have said buy real solar batts, just not sure I can spend $300-500 ea for solar batts.

They will be on sale through next week and wanna make a move and start getting things in order..... Thanks ahead of time for the suggestions.


----------



## talob

smaj100 said:


> DECISIONS DECISIONS!!!!
> 
> My local farm store, has 6V Exide golf cart batteries 185AH on sale for $69 ea. To me this sounds like a great deal price wise, and IMHO lots of folks are using these batteries for solar/wind systems. I know some folks have said buy real solar batts, just not sure I can spend $300-500 ea for solar batts.
> 
> They will be on sale through next week and wanna make a move and start getting things in order..... Thanks ahead of time for the suggestions.


Man I hear ya, I've been looking at batterys at Sams club, been looking at Duracell (made by Deka) they have a 230 HR 6v for 110$ thats quite a difference in price for the difference in HR's have to do the math might be worth it to buy the cheaper ones and just add a couple, problem is I'm allready looking at eight of them for a 24v system.


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## LincTex

185 AH for $69 is a deal... that's 2.68 amp hour per dollar spent

230 for $110 = 2.09 ah per dollar spent


----------



## talob

Thanks for breaking is down like that LincTex, now I gotta wonder if the cheaper batterys are worth it with the extra battery cables, more room, more chance of battery failure with extra batterys, like smaj100 said DECISIONS DECISIONS!!!


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## cowboyhermit

As far as flooded batteries go that looks like a really good deal on the golf cart batteries imo. If you want a deepcycle agm you would be looking at much more $ and it is a tossup whether it pays. If subjected to harsh conditions; extreme temperatures, physical shock etc agm are better, they also don't have stratification issues etc. Most people who buy golf cart batteries and spend just a bit of time on maintenance have good success. I even had good success with a batch of deep cycle/starting batteries we got at a great price and everyone says to avoid those.

Probably not worth mentioning but for anyone with little experience with electricity shopping for batteries, don't forget to do the conversion on AH. A 100AH 12V = 200AH 6V


----------



## smaj100

Cowboy,

Thanks I wondered if the aH was different between 6 and 12v systems. The given ah that I quoted earlier was from the exide spec sheet online. Do I need to double it like you suggested or take it like the manufacturer suggested?


----------



## cowboyhermit

smaj100 said:


> Cowboy,
> 
> Thanks I wondered if the aH was different between 6 and 12v systems. The given ah that I quoted earlier was from the exide spec sheet online. Do I need to double it like you suggested or take it like the manufacturer suggested?


The specs will be right, it just makes it a bit trickier to compare 12V with 6V batteries. For instance that 185Ah 6V battery will store the same amount of power as a 92.5Ah 12V one. It would be easier to compare if they were rated in Wh like a lot of rechargeables although to get watt hours all you have to do is voltage x amp hours so it is not difficult.


----------



## LincTex

cowboyhermit said:


> It would be easier to compare if they were rated in Wh like a lot of rechargeables although to get watt hours all you have to do is voltage x amp hours so it is not difficult.


Correct.

Let's say you have four 6-volt golf cart batteries. You can connect them all in series and get four times the voltage (24 volts) at the same amperage rating of just one battery,

...or all 4 in parallel, with the same volts as one battery (6) but now with 4 times the amperage.


----------



## smaj100

Thanks yeah the magnum inverter I am looking at along with the midnight mppt charge controller both handle 48v systems. I am planning on 4 banks of 8ea of the 6v golf cart batts. Each bank wired in series with the banks wired in parallel should give me 48v and 740AH. I can add more banks as the system grows.


----------



## LincTex

smaj100 said:


> I am planning on 4 banks of 8ea of the 6v golf cart batts. Each bank wired in series with the banks wired in parallel should give me 48v and 740AH. I can add more banks as the system grows.


Four banks will give you the convenience of running on any given of the three while equalizing the fourth bank 

That would be nice to be able to do - I have two banks, so can only run on "half" while I equalize the other.

http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_battery_care.html

http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/BatteryMaintenanceOffGrid.html

http://www.oasismontana.com/batteries.html


----------



## talob

Guys, been doing some checking and figuring on a battery setup, let me know if I'm figureing this right. Batterys are 6v wired in series parallel first setup would be eight 230ah for a total of 920ah's, second setup is ten 215ah for a total of 1075ah's, sound right? Second setup is for about the same or a little less money. OH and have a thousand watts of panels to charge em with.


----------



## talob

talob said:


> Guys, been doing some checking and figuring on a battery setup, let me know if I'm figureing this right. Batterys are 6v wired in series parallel first setup would be eight 230ah for a total of 920ah's, second setup is ten 215ah for a total of 1075ah's, sound right? Second setup is for about the same or a little less money. OH and have a thousand watts of panels to charge em with.


And I forgot to mention the system will be 24v.


----------



## smaj100

Ok this hasn't had a lot of traffic recently but I need to ask everyone's opinion. I recently got a load of telephone poles cheap. Most are 10" 18-22' and in great shape. I'm using most of them for horse run in's in the pastures. 

I hand picked the biggest, nicest looking one. 14" dia and 22' in length still oozing creosote for use on my wind turbine. My questions is even at 16' with 6' in the ground for super stability and strength, I would like to attach part of the mast kit to the telephone pole and extend it even further into the air for cleaner wind. Would something like the pic below work for enough strength? Would I need to guy wire the pole or the mast?


----------



## cowboyhermit

How big is the turbine and how heavy? But anyways, the answer will probably be no
That looks like thin 1 1/4 inch pipe, not going to handle much.


----------



## smaj100

This is the turbine I bought a couple years ago still in the box waiting to have a place and way to install it.

4.6' blade diameter, and 40lbs.

http://www.amazon.com/Windmax-HY400-12-Volt-Residential-Generator/dp/B001CZIHH0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1395108241&sr=8-1&keywords=windmax+hy400

This is the original tower I bought and never installed, figuring the telephone pole would be so much stronger.
It feels about like steel fencing pipe thickness maybe a little thicker.
http://www.amazon.com/Sunforce-45455-Wind-Generator-Tower/dp/B000C210KU/ref=pd_sim_lg_12?ie=UTF8&refRID=0E8RB1JQY4DZSVWEKVBN


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## cowboyhermit

A good wooden pole will handle the wind fine, one you describe will be very solid and should need no guys although they never hurt. That standoff and pole in the picture concern me a bit but I don't know the thickness for sure or your weather locally. You want little to no "stand off" if possible and heavy brackets, I would also not skimp on the pole to the generator itself.


----------



## smaj100

Cowboy Thanks for the input that was my thought as well, maybe a 2" sch40 steel pipe anchored directly to the wood pole. I am sure they make better different anchors. That standoff pictured was designed IMO for mounting antenna mast's to a wall or chimney. I am sure there are mounts out there to accomplish what I want just didn't find any quickly on google.

Any ideas if there are recommended steel pole attached to exposed type ratios? Would I need to be concerned with the pole folding over where the edge of the wood meets the steel?

I live in NW TN and our winds are on the low end, with the semi regular afternoon thunderstorm.


----------



## TheLazyL

Burying telephone poles rule of thumb.

Bury 4 feet plus 10% of the pole length. Minimum depth 4 feet.


----------



## smaj100

Lazy, from my buddy that works for the local elec coop, they use 10% +2' which was my plan. 22' pole gives me 4.2' so a 4-5' hole and drop it in.


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## LincTex

smaj100 said:


> This is the turbine I bought a couple years ago still in the box waiting to have a place and way to install it.
> 
> 4.6' blade diameter, and 40lbs.


These things are notorious for low output and short life. I would sell it to someone else, IMHO.

Wind generators are funny... They are NOT rated on a linear scale.

You might get 5 watts from that thing at 5 mph, 30 watts at 10 mph, 80 watts at 20 mph, 160 watts at 25 mph, and maybe if you are lucky you can get 500 watts in a sustained 30 mph wind.

Your mileage may vary.

http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_wind.html
_You might have noticed this from the profusion of wind power articles here on our site. We specialize in teaching folks how to build their own wind turbines. But wind power isn't for everybody--most people don't have enough wind resource to make it pay off, or are not allowed to put up a tower tall enough to get to a good resource. Don't be fooled by snake oil salesmen on the internet! Instead, do your homework first. And always remember--solar works great, but it's boring compared to wind.

We recommend you start with our The Bottom Line About Wind Turbines article, ( http://otherpower.com/bottom_line.html ) and browse through more in the menu at left. But if you're in a rush...

Wind power basics in a nutshell:

Wind speed is critical! Double the wind speed, get 8 times the power. The wind is slow and turbulent near the ground and on rooftops. The industry standard is that wind turbines must fly at least 30 feet above anything within 500 feet. If you can't do this, do some detailed research before spending any money on a wind power system.
Size matters! Double the rotor diameter, get 4 times the power. A small rotor means you need high winds to make any significant energy at all--and high winds are rare at most locations.
Wind really shines when installed off the grid! It's an excellent complement to solar in many locations.
Snake oil is everywhere! Fancy websites are far cheaper than actual hardware, and there are plenty of snakes out there who will tell you only what you want to hear. Do your homework before you jump in._


----------



## smaj100

quick question, planning on running the wind turbine up a tree this weekend to get it in the wind. It's a 3 phase unit and calls for 8 awg. Would I be ok using 8/2 w ground or should I get 8/3 with ground and just not use the ground?


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## cowboyhermit

Assuming that it is low voltage dc (rectifier on alternator) which it most likely will be, you should be fine either way.

Doh, too distracted, obviously not low voltage dc
I would say you will likely be fine but probably not to spec/code. 
I wonder why they want such a heavy wire with the 3phase?


----------



## smaj100

not sure the manual calls for 8 awg up to 150' from the pma to the controller. 400watt max on the turbine, by my math from the controller 12vdc would only be 33A, not really sure how to figure out how many amps the 3 phase or the voltage that would be coming down the line. 

Honestly I'm considering just running some 10/2 with ground, and if im not getting the power i should be then i can always go back and run 8.


----------



## LincTex

cowboyhermit said:


> I wonder why they want such a heavy wire with the 3phase?


No kidding!! You can run a 40amp breaker house circuit on an 8 gauge!! That little bitty wind generator won't need it.

For comparison, read this...

KEEP IN MIND: *this is a FAR more powerful turbine than yours!!!!*
http://www.otherpower.com/timsturbine.html


> Tim's tractor did a nice job of making a trench so we could bury the line from the tower to the batteries which are located in his shop. The line from the base of the tower to the batteries is #6 wire, 3 strands and we used 1" diameter PVC as conduit. It's buried most of the way. Up the tower to the machine he's got 3 strands of #8 wire. The tower is only 30' tall - but it's in a good spot. The distance from the tower to the batteries is about 50'


----------



## smaj100

do you think a 10-2 with the ground wire as a 3rd wire will work or should i get 10-3?


----------



## mosquitomountainman

LincTex said:


> No kidding!! You can run a 40amp breaker house circuit on an 8 gauge!! That little bitty wind generator won't need it.
> 
> For comparison, read this...
> 
> KEEP IN MIND: *this is a FAR more powerful turbine than yours!!!!*
> http://www.otherpower.com/timsturbine.html


Wouldn't larger wire be better for a low voltage system?


----------



## Caribou

smaj100 said:


> do you think a 10-2 with the ground wire as a 3rd wire will work or should i get 10-3?


If the ground is insulated and the same size as the other two then an 8 or 10-2 w/ground is fine. If the ground is a bare wire then I would go with the 10-3.

Some wires have a bare wire for the ground, I would not use this as a hot or neutral. The other wires are the same except for the color of the insulation. While there are standard usages for the different colors the electricity is color blind. If this is ever inspected the inspector may throw a fit but it should work fine.

If you use the green wire put a bit of red electrical tape at each end of the green wire to remind yourself what you did and to let anyone that follows you know what you did. I have seen installations where all the wires were black wires. As I sorted these wires out I put the appropriate color tape on each wire end.

I tend to put in heavier wires especially on low voltage systems. The heavier the wire the less the resistance. Over the years the corrosion will degrade the effectiveness of the wire so a heavier wire will last longer. My vote is for the #8 wire.


----------



## LincTex

smaj100 said:


> do you think a 10-2 with the ground wire as a 3rd wire will work?


Yes. You will never overpower that wire with that itty-bitty wind turbine. I'll bet 14-2 would be fine.

What is the operating OCV between the PMG and the FWBR? (no load condition, in max wind?)

If that thing puts out under 20 volts (no load condition, in max wind) you will need the larger wire due to voltage drop. If OCV is very high (over 100 or more) then small wire is fine.


----------



## smaj100

Im assuming since its 3 phase ac and rectified in the controller I could run smaller wire from the turbine into the shed where the controller will be near the batteries. I'm using 1/0 on the batteries and to the inverter with 6 gauge from the solar controller and turbine controller to the batt's.

was just hoping to run something smaller for cost about 100' from the turbine to controller. I'm not worried about nec code but thought about running 2sets of 10-3 from the turbine to the controller for helping and volt loss and or resistance.


----------



## hardrock

Use this http://www.angelfire.com/pa/baconbacon/page2.html


----------



## LincTex

smaj100 said:


> Im assuming since its 3 phase ac and rectified in the controller I could run smaller wire from the turbine into the shed where the controller will be near the batteries.


That is correct.

Do you have any specs on the output voltage of the PMG?


----------



## labotomi

smaj100 said:


> not sure the manual calls for 8 awg up to 150' from the pma to the controller. 400watt max on the turbine, by my math from the controller 12vdc would only be 33A, not really sure how to figure out how many amps the 3 phase or the voltage that would be coming down the line.
> 
> Honestly I'm considering just running some 10/2 with ground, and if im not getting the power i should be then i can always go back and run 8.


With three phase, you will have less current than with single phase if the voltages are the same.

single phase Power = volts * amps

three phase Power = volts * amps * (sqrt 3)

*** I left power factor out of the equation. It will be close enough to 1 in this situation as to have negligible effect. There's nothing that I could find that states what the voltage output of the generator actually is. I know the rectifier output is 12v, but to figure the amps coming from the generator, the voltage is needed.


----------



## mosquitomountainman

The specs on the unit in question are almost non-existent. I seriously doubt that it is 3 phase in the true sense of the word. Our wind generator has three wires also. One 12 volt hot, one ground from the generator and one ground from the unit itself. Ti is definitely a 12 volt, DC generator.

If it's 12 volts then it will probably need the larger wire size for a 150' (or even 50 feet), run. If anyone can find a decent spec sheet or installation instructions I'd dearly love to see it.


----------



## smaj100

Labotomi,

I've searched hi and lo and can't find a refV for the turbine output anywhere. I'm gonna guess it's a linear scale with V & A going up together as RPM's increase. The only way I can think to figure it out would be to put a volt & ampmeter on the output lines. I'm going to run 2 sets of 10-3 in parallel from the turbine to the controller to ensure I don't have any heat or V loss.


----------



## mosquitomountainman

smaj100 said:


> Labotomi,
> 
> I've searched hi and lo and can't find a refV for the turbine output anywhere. I'm gonna guess it's a linear scale with V & A going up together as RPM's increase. The only way I can think to figure it out would be to put a volt & ampmeter on the output lines. I'm going to run 2 sets of 10-3 in parallel from the turbine to the controller to ensure I don't have any heat or V loss.


Volts should remain relatively constant. Amps will increase/decrease in relation to wind speed and load demand.


----------



## cowboyhermit

I've avoided posting here because I am distracted lately and numbers aren't working so great in my head (tax, accounting and planning time:gaah.
But, voltage will vary widely with windspeed on a typical wind generator, before the charge controller and/or rectifier. Even after the regulator/charge controller you should be well over 12V for charging though. Voltage loss is of course in proportion to the amount of current and with the 3 phase you have that spread over more conductors.

Cost is certainly an issue with wire but I usually stick to the heavy side with LVDC as well. Probably the wire is sized for minimal loss at max output current, a condition that the unit will not be in most of the time in all likelihood.


----------



## mosquitomountainman

cowboyhermit said:


> I've avoided posting here because I am distracted lately and numbers aren't working so great in my head (tax, accounting and planning time:gaah.
> But, voltage will vary widely with windspeed on a typical wind generator, before the charge controller and/or rectifier. Even after the regulator/charge controller you should be well over 12V for charging though. Voltage loss is of course in proportion to the amount of current and with the 3 phase you have that spread over more conductors.
> 
> Cost is certainly an issue with wire but I usually stick to the heavy side with LVDC as well. Probably the wire is sized for minimal loss at max output current, a condition that the unit will not be in most of the time in all likelihood.


Perhaps you could find some specs on the one in question that show volts and amps at different wind speeds. (Even instructions for wiring the thing up would be helpful!)

The voltage variance at the batteries will remain fairly constant since there isn't a lot of wiggle room for charging batteries. Too low and they won't charge, too high and they get fried.


----------



## LincTex

smaj100 said:


> This is the turbine I bought a couple years ago still in the box waiting to have a place and way to install it.
> 
> 4.6' blade diameter, and 40lbs.


This thing is *TINY.*
A 5 foot disc is _completely incapable_ of capturing/gathering enough wind energy necessary to overpower even 12-3 wire. The amount of energy a 4.6' diameter disc can capture is a calculable amount and can be directly quantified into a net amount of energy available that can be converted into electricity (minus losses, of course)

If you do find the specs, I think you will find that rated output is over 25 mph wind speed - AVERAGED. Most people see _gusts_ of wind that cross over 25 for a brief moment... but sustained 25 mph is VERY rare.

I hate to rain on your parade, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the actual net output of this turbine will be far lower than you were hoping for. I suspect that for all practical purposes it will be useful as a trickle charger and little more.

You need to do more data gathering before pressing this thing into actual use.

I would seriously consider building a tower in your truck bed (or on the front) to do some wind speed testing. Tape a piece of paper over the truck speedometer so you won't be tempted to look at it, since it will be 100% worthless data (ground speed) when testing: you need a wind speed meter of some sort, something that is sensitive and accurate in the 3-30 MPH range.

http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_wind_modelAtest.html

http://www.otherpower.com/learningcurve.html
http://www.otherpower.com/images/bdwm5333.jpg


----------



## LincTex

mosquitomountainman said:


> I seriously doubt that it is 3 phase in the true sense of the word.


If it uses a design like a car alternator with a three-phase stator, then yes it would be three phase output to the rectifier.

http://www.windbluepower.com/category_s/27.htm

The "axial Flux" PM generators also use three-phase stator:

http://www.otherpower.com/rectifier.html
http://www.otherpower.com/rectifiers/schematic.JPG


----------



## labotomi

mosquitomountainman said:


> Volts should remain relatively constant. Amps will increase/decrease in relation to wind speed and load demand.


Voltage should vary in an unregulated generator (permanent magnet generators are unregulated). Amps will only change if voltage or resistance changes.

Voltage generated is dependent upon three things:
magnetic field strength: this uses permanent magnets so it's constant
number of conductors in the windings: this isn't changing either
the speed of the field vs the windings: this is the only thing that can change on this setup. higher wind means a higher generator speed and a higher output voltage


----------



## labotomi

LincTex said:


>


This picture is going to bring the perpetual energy crowd out of the woodwork...


----------



## LincTex

labotomi said:


> This picture is going to bring the perpetual energy crowd out of the woodwork...


Not likely.

However - SURPRISINGLY - I still get people run ideas like this past me all the time. I have become very adept at quickly striking down people's "grand schemes" with very some basic math.

As a rule, the general populace has no idea how many BTU's/joules are available in a gallon of gasoline, one cubic foot of hard wood, or in one kWh of electricity, etc. etc.


----------



## mosquitomountainman

The small wind generators are a good supplement to solar power. It helps to see them as an additional power rather than a stand-alone system. We have one of the Whisper Quiet, 400 watt units to supplement our solar panels. It does alright. That extra 10 to 20 amps keeps the batteries topped off on windy nights when we're most likely going to be using the television or computers.

Just don't depend on it for all your off grid electricity. The wind can be a bit fickle!


----------



## Caribou

Just a reminder, the wire size of a DC circuit factors in the length of both the positive and negative wires.


----------



## smaj100

Well I started the install today. Got 2 of the 4 Grape solar 160W panels installed and wired to the mppt controller. Even in full shade the 2 panels wired in series were producing 19.8V on at the controller. I'll add the other 2 panels tomm and wire them. Hopefully installing the wind turbine soon. 

Like Moqsuito said the wind turbine is purely a supplement. Especially as we enter the stormy season here in Tn....


----------



## LincTex

smaj100 said:


> Well I started the install today. Got 2 of the 4 Grape solar 160W panels installed and wired to the mppt controller.


Make sure the fan on your inverter always blows heat up^. If the fan is on the bottom and blows out (down) you may have an overheating problem.

Grab some old computer towers and rob all the fans from them... they come in handy for all kinds of stuff!


----------



## smaj100

Linc, thanks for the idea. I've been snagging all kinds of aluminum heat sinks from work that are scrapped off of old circuit boards and power supplies. I'll need a few of those fans for the new battery box attached to the back of the shed to keep it well vented.

So far I am very impressed with the 160W grape solar panels from amazon. Even not mounted in an optimum orientation (they are facing east), they are producing power on overcast days, rainy days and even full shade once the sun has passed below the treeline. 

The panels are 18V oc, I wired 2 in series giving me 36V and then wired the 2 sets in parallel. I think that is helping the controller provide well above the 12-15v needed to maintain the batteries at a good charge. The controller is an MPPT type so it's constantly floating the batteries. 

Anyone have any recommendations on a true sin wave inverter? I more interested in having the ability to wire it to an AC circuit breaker and wire up our barn with normal outlets.


----------



## LincTex

smaj100 said:


> Anyone have any recommendations on a true sin wave inverter?


They aren't needed as often as one might think.

A lot of things run fine on MSW inverters, it really just depends on how "choppy" (number of "stairs" there are in each wave) the power is that the inverter produces.

I am pretty sure there aren't any really TRUE PSW inverters.... they just have a LOT of steps in their wave:


----------



## smaj100

For those running battery banked inverters, what gauge wire is needed for the interconnects? I've got 1 interconnect to make 2 6v into 1 12v, then I have interconnects down the negative and positive side for paralleling to the inverter.

Right now I am using 2AWG for the interconnects, but I have additional 1/0 and can make cables out of it, if needed. I am running 2 1/0 to the inverter but the loads are very low draw right now.


----------



## cowboyhermit

I am assuming you mean the jumpers between batteries in each bank. Either way 2 AWG should be fine. 2 gauge has around 100 A ampacity, if you have a 2000W inverter that is about 166A, divide that by 2 because of both wires and you should be fine. Voltage losses will be completely insignificant on a 1ft span with that wire. 

I typically use the same size wire for all the runs for the sake of simplicity and added safety margin, there will be just as many amps running through the jumpers as through the inverter leads (in the setup pictured) so the only difference is ampacity and safety margins. 

Theoretically, if one bank failed (or a wire or connection) the inverter could try to draw it's full output from the "good" bank, making that 2awg toasty warm. Not likely but worth considering.


----------



## bunkerbob

*My off-grid system, Ten years now*

Any questions just PM me, I may be able to help, we have been off-grid for about ten years now and were grid tied with our last home. As you can see redundancy is the key to a secure system. Remember... one is none, two is one and three is two rule.
Some photos of our 5kw system. We have regular appliances and even a large Jacuzzi tub in the master bath, DC versions are very inefficient and costly, with the exception of our jet pump which is 24vdc running directly from the battery bank.
I like the old Trace/Xantex SW 4024 inverters, very robust and reliable. I keep one in the box for backup.

BB


----------



## helicopter5472

I have a pair of SW 3624 built in 1999, paired run the whole house. including the well, and the clothes dryer. Although I have a propane stove and propane tankless H/W heater. Reliable units.


----------



## hashbrown

I have a couple wood stoves and a hand pump for the well......


----------



## smaj100

I appreciate all of the input and help from everyone as I continue to build my off grid system. I have another question though.

I found a guy locally who has a few panels for sale at a reasonable price and I don't have to pay shipping! My question is this;

They are different brands, watts and voltages. I have 4 160W Vmpp 18v panels now, can they all be wired to the controller together or do I need separate controllers for the panels with different voltages? My thought is to use a combiner box.


----------



## LincTex

smaj100 said:


> They are different brands, watts and voltages. I have 4 160W Vmpp 18v panels now, can they all be wired to the controller together or do I need separate controllers for the panels with different voltages? My thought is to use a combiner box.


You can wire odd-voltage panels in series and send the output to a MPPT charge controller, as long as you don't exceed the input voltage.

Any wattage rating panels can be wired in parallel as long as the output voltages are very similar. I do not think panels of significantly different voltages "fight" each other when in parallel, but why chance it. Worst case scenario would be the highest voltage panel does all the work, and lowest voltage panel does nothing, and needs to be removed from the circuit and have its output send through a different charge controller (or relegate it to "gate opener duty", LOL!)


----------



## JackDanielGarrett

Guys...I find myself coming back to this thread ALLOT. Seems we all have many ways we have set up our solar and this thread would cost six hundred bux a head to attend at a seminar. I have found myself focusing on the DC lights for my place. I do have a 1200 watt inverter, but I (at this time) think lighting my house may be easier done with DC current.

I found 5 AGM~38 Ah batteries for $100. I am tying them together with a strip of aluminum, 1" wide X 1/8" thick, holes drilled to accept the post. Six inches will overhang one end to serve as a buss bar. Charging with two HF 45 watt solar panel kits. I am using the gold speaker wire~about $12 for 100 feet, can handle about 20 Amps. Lowe's plastic, pull chain light fixtures. From Amazon I bought those LED, 12 V light bulbs that cost less then $4 each including shipping. The bulbs are using .5 Ah and give off great light.

So far I have used 2 bulbs for 4 to 6 hours with almost no pull down on my batteries. last night I ran one bulb from 8 PM till 7 AM, on one battery and it dropped from 12.86 down to 12.34.

This is just my doings, I guess I am experimenting before I run 1/2 the lights here on DC current. I understand recharge time may be slow with those panels. I reckon I am asking, is anyone else doing this, I saw posts that eluded to it, but nothing "plain and simple" so one like me could understand it...

This is SO exciting and I thank ALL of you for your post. Happy Sunny Days..
Jack


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## zimmy

All of my panels for this battery system are the same brand and wattage, but because I have them mounted on the roof, they receive varying amounts of light through out the day, so each group (modules) of panels have their own mppt charge controller.
Depending on how many you buy, Tracer controllers can be found on Ebay for about $135 shipped to the door. They are rated 20 amp at 150 vdc. So far they have been very dependable, but I do keep a couple extra on hand just in case.


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