# Reality check on property protection.



## BlueShoe (Aug 7, 2010)

This is meant to be a post of light details showing how vulnerable people and communities are, even when they're aware, sharing intelligence and attempting to defend their property and security. This is a series of events which are ongoing for the past couple of months. 

I've been working in a rural area of a county where long time property owners pretty much know each other, have some family members as neighbors and have an understanding of the peril of their nation and community due to the financial decay in the world. One family has (2) 19-20 yr old boys on drugs living in the middle of them who are stealing from the neighbors every week and haven't been caught yet.

The setting: It's out in the country. These are property lots ranging from 1/4 acre right on the street (where the two thieves live) up to 100 acre cattle farms all along the same stretch of road with only a couple of offshoot roads. Some driveways run 1/4 mile off the road with barbed wire fences, open fields surrounding them with game cameras and motion sensors/driveway sensors. One military retiree and his brother are trying to catch them and can't. Meanwhile the thieves have been on that very property within a half an hour after one of them was waiting up for them. Right after he went to sleep, they got the car emptied of contents which was minor. The property owners have first gen night vision, game cameras, trip wires and have stayed out all night to watch, but still nothing. They stay in contact with surrounding neighbors about the activity of the thieves, etc.. One of the neighbors who was struck twice has a Gadsden Flag bumper sticker with other stickers indicating personal liberties and gun ownership if that indicates anything. Actually his wife drives that vehicle. There are dogs on some properties too. 

Nobody has caught a theft in the act. Some have them on game cameras but they wear hoodies so you can't ID them from that. The thieves have been into cars, trucks, garages and outbuildings making off with the typical stuff. It appears one other family has a member involved who is a girlfriend or at least companion living nearby on the same road. So even while being aware and attempting to protect their property, two brazen and obviously shrewed young men-boys are able to steal for a period of months without being caught. They live right in the middle of their aware victims. There are outstanding warrants on one of the boys for other crimes, but they just don't answer the door when the sheriff comes knocking. They can be seen outside the house and have even been confronted by some neighbors. Still no changes in behavior and activity.


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## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

Is this a real situation or notional? If it is a real situation, what will be the relation to the other neighbors when someone finally catches the thieves in the act and shoots them? 

Do the parents or households know about these thieving activities? If they do then they are a party to the actions of the thieves. 

How did you find out about these thieves and their stealing?


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## BlueShoe (Aug 7, 2010)

This is a real series of ongoing events. We've talked at length with the victims and their families. They've got some of our phone numbers and we've provided them information of what we see when we're there. We've gotten very close with some and given them advice and intel. I've never seen the parents but I'm told they know what's going on. Everyone on this road knows. Everybody in walking distance has been hit or knows a neighbor who has been. One of them didn't care to tell that he confronted them on the street and insulted them and every member of their family and they just took the abuse and went along their way. Of course some property owners are armed, and even in public.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

I think that in a SHTF situation those boys would have been put down like dogs long before it got this far. If their family didn't like it they might be put down too for not stopping it.

In today's system, the laws seem to protect the criminals and not the victims. To be 100% honest everything has gone to shit and there is nothing we can really do without ending up in jail ourselves.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

yep thats the problem grim.. do whats right now, and you are a criminal..


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## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

Innocent people seem to be the targets of prosecutors and district attorneys' offices, yet criminals seem to not be a concern for the justice system. Perhaps a quiet resolution where the parties involved could be "persuaded" to discontinue their activities after they have recuperated from undisclosed injuries.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

And I get accused of "cop bashing" by members of this forum.


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## ContinualHarvest (Feb 19, 2012)

It may be time to park the cars in the garage. If thats no option, perhaps a perimeter of RF beam triggered lights and alarms. These can be set up to annoy and confuse as well as alert.

Long enough for someone to get out there and take them out. A shotgun full of rocksalt like the used to carry on railroads would be less than lethal but effective.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

I have been watching the Dexter series, and although these guys are not killers, I was thinking how Dexter would catch them and then do his thing with them. Then as FatTire says, "do the right thing and you are a criminal."

I think this is a very real possibility, more and more, as time goes on and the economy collapses. Knowing what you can and cannot do will be in our faces more and more as we are pushed to protect ourselves when the law has their hands tied or are limited to what they can or will do. 

I have been in a situation where the law did nothing when I felt they could have done something. 

Documenting the patterns, times, days, etc. is something that happened in my neighborhood decades ago when one house had drug dealers working there. I would think that working together and maybe even creating a neighborhood watch might help. 

Is there a window of time that these happen that could be narrowed. Criminals have patterns and time frames. 

Could some alarms be set up to catch the thieves?

What about a neighborhood watch or patrol that could set up to watch without the targets being aware of it? Some pooling of resources (night vision) as well as some strategies might make people feel less vulnerable and more empowered. Lots of discussion of strategies and debriefing would be important. 

I think that looking at and examining what has gone on will give everyone information to know what to do to protect themselves better, now and for the future.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Since you know who the thieves are, you could give the cops an anonymous tip that there are drugs at the address. That will probably result in a SWAT raid on the house. Who knows, maybe they're buying drugs with the proceeds.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

Nah, tell the cops the family is selling raw milk!


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

FatTire said:


> Nah, tell the cops the family is selling raw milk!


This will work a WHOLE lot better than the anon drug calls.
No joke. The feds take selling raw milk seriously while drugs come across the borders like imported seafood.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Good points in the O.P. I have heard of situations like this many times over the years. I think from the security perspective there are several things to be considered. 

First of all typical barb-wire fence is not a good people fence, rural folks will hardly even slow down for it (unless maybe it's electric). It can serve the purpose of delineating property lines and keeping in livestock, moreover it is often the only feasible alternative on large areas. However, imo, if at all possible fences should be layered with the yard and other sensitive areas being enclosed by a more useful barrier.

Secondly, with regards to cameras, game cameras are great for what they are but they cannot fill the same role as a live video camera. A live camera, possibly even a network camera can notify you when the act is occurring, show you where, possibly who, and allow you to stop the act while in progress. With a network camera you don't even have to be home to be notified. A ptz camera allows even more possibilities but the expense might not be worth it, that money might be better spent on IR illuminators to allow the cameras to see better than any night vision.

Lastly the dogs, all I can say is having dogs (or other animals) on the property is one thing, have guard or watch animals is another entirely. Some people assume because their dog barks he is somehow qualified to be a watch dog, I would strongly disagree.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

That crap shouldn't be tolerated, criminals will always push things as far as they can. their are lots of ways to catch these clowns, crooks seem to have an extra sense for how far they can push things. All the Sherriff has to do is look the other way when somebody punches some information into these punks. Does the family own the land they live on or are they renters, if so pressure the land owner to get rid of them.


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## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

Three S's, conceal the perpetrators on their own land. 
Criminals sort of do and don't have timetable patterns. I met a family of professional thieves who worked several states at a time. One would go scout the new location and send back copiously detailed reports on everyone and everything. At their current location, one would steal, one would conceal the crimes, one was lookout, one would liquidate and convert all items into assets, etc. ad nauseum. 

If one got caught, they had someone to deal with the victim. They had a very well organized and rehearsed plan to upstakes and move out in a hour's notice. 

Once in awhile, one of them would "disappear" and law enforcement was not involved. Someone caught on and took care of business.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

Since you know who they are and you have night vision you could set up a team. A couple each night could man an observation post from just past dark till just before dawn. You could know when they leave home and which direction they headed. A phone call would alert the next guy and he could wake up and keep track of their movements. A concerted effort could catch them in the act in just a few days.


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## BlueShoe (Aug 7, 2010)

I suspect the mom and dad own the house. It's pretty run down looking and tiny. It's actually a converted carriage house with 4 adults living in it. Everybody says they're stealing for drug money. They're getting chain saws, weed-eaters, etc..

I advised the retired military guy (he's young for being retired) to get a thermal unit. A Scout is only around $1700, and since he's on retirement he could work part time and pay for it quickly. He's the one with the gen 1 night vision scope. He could split the cost with his brother next door. Nothing acquires bodies like thermal. I'd love to have a Scout. More importantly I told them to get at least the Dakota Alert WR-3000 motion detector base which is around $125 with 1 passive wireless IR sensor in a weatherproof case. It's expandable to as many sensors are you want. I believe it has 4 different chimes and that's enough to cover 4 sides of 1 of their houses with distinct sounds for each side of the house. BING-BONG means front. BIG BEN chime means one side. There's 2 more tones you can assign to one unit for the other sides. They even have a handheld wireless that vibrates, chimes or both when it's triggered. There are more expensive units by Dakota Alert with better features but that's a start. the WR-3000 has a relay in it too that can activate a device for up to 15 minutes. There's a long range setup for $50 bucks. Chances are they're going to get wildlife setting it off, but it will give them a base to understand what's going on at what times even if it's game. Animals keep patterns of behavior and stick close to times of activity in certain areas. The WR-3000 says it has a volume control to turn it down to nothing or very loud. _It's 7:30pm and the alert went off. It's probably that raccoon coming out. Or, it's 10pm and the alert went off. It's probably that coyote coming through the yard._ But when it's 3:30 and the alert never goes off then but just did, you might need to take a look out the window.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Ultraviolot*

You can buy an ultraviolet powder that is only visible under an ultraviolet light.

You set up something as bait . For instance a pistol in a zip up pistol case left in an unlocked vehicle in the drive way.

Make sure the powder is inside the case and on the gun only so that you don't get it all over the inside of your vehicle.

Let the Sheriff participate in the baiting and placement of the gun.

When it disappears, notify the Sheriff and he can then go straight to the residence and blue light the door. If he gets a hit on the door for the invisible detection powder, he can get a search warrant for the residence and vehicles. This stuff is almost impossible to get off your hands also.

Do not shoot these people for stealing from an unoccupied vehicle or dwelling.
You can not use deadly force to protect property, only in self defense.

If I could have shot someone for stealing, I would never have had to chase anyone when I was a Deputy. I could have just shot them.

Trespassing is a misdemeanor . You can't shoot someone for trespassing.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

This situation would had a different solution and outcome if there were no rule of law...


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

BlueShoe you could very well have been talking about a family that lives about three miles from us toward our little town. The father and one son spent some prison time for game violations. If some other creep wanted an elk steak, venison or salmon out of the local streams I have heard they would fill the order, sometimes just cutting the back strap out and leaving the rest of the meat to spoil. Drugs, still game violations, stealing from homes where the owners had died just a short time before, dump all kinds of junk out in the woods (I heard they had an uncle that has a second hand store and pays them to get rid of non repairable appliances and such) and I'm pretty sure they stole a couple of chain saws and a pressure washer from a neighbor next to them that's been a friend of mine for years. The county sheriffs know all about these people but say their hands are tied. I'm really surprised that in all the years someone hasn't taken these guys out. In a SHTF situation this family needs to be taken care of with no hesitation otherwise they will have free reign for rape and pillage. I can honestly say I hate people that do these things, basically living off of the hard work of others and burning through whatever money they got from the thefts by using drugs.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Some boards with nails sticking up and then lightly covered with leaves, clippings, etc will make a good alarm system. When those nails go into their feet they will not by quiet anymore. At that point what you do to them is your own business.


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## BlueShoe (Aug 7, 2010)

I don't live in that area, but this location is close to one of our forum members here who I've pm'ed with in the past. It's a place where you step outside of your car and you hear no man-made noise. I'd love to live there. Communities used to have a process to rid themselves of these people, but most people today live within the law.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

ContinualHarvest said:


> It may be time to park the cars in the garage. If thats no option, perhaps a perimeter of RF beam triggered lights and alarms. These can be set up to annoy and confuse as well as alert.
> 
> Long enough for someone to get out there and take them out. A shotgun full of rocksalt like the used to carry on railroads would be less than lethal but effective.


We had the same problem several years ago. We had video surveillance set up with motion detectors that alarmed only inside. Long story short, the boy (now grown & doing well) says the rocksalt was life changing for him. The video sealed the deal with prosecution & we ended up getting thousands in damages/restitution. The mother hasn't spoken to me since the day I promised her the next time it wouldn't be rocksalt. You'd think I'd at least get a thank-you card for straightening out her son but no, nothing. :dunno:


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## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

Stakeout the thieves' home--follow them.
They can NOT be smarter than the entire community.

You have a community--use it.
Take turns.


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## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

FatTire said:


> Nah, tell the cops the family is selling raw milk!


Or set up a kool-aid stand in the garage!!


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

BillM said:


> You can buy an ultraviolet powder that is only visible under an ultraviolet light.


Good idea!



BillM said:


> Do not shoot these people for stealing from an unoccupied vehicle or dwelling.
> You can not use deadly force to protect property, ...Trespassing is a misdemeanor . You can't shoot someone for trespassing.


It's perfectly fine to do here & happens pretty regularly. Other places they'd hang you twice if they could. Laws vary widely as does the practice of those laws. It's best to know those laws & practices & take care of business within those restrictions if at all possible. Sometimes you just have to get creative!


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

JayJay said:


> Stakeout the thieves' home--follow them.
> They can NOT be smarter than the entire community.
> 
> You have a community--use it.
> Take turns.


Easy to say but not so easy to carry out. At some time in our lives we've heard of bullies that can't be gotten rid of other than them dieing by their own, like a car accident, heart attack or some disease. Never on the time table of those who have suffered from their evilness. Of the family that I talked about, I think the father died in 2012 while cooling off in a hot summer day laying on a creek bank. The outstanding childrenlovingly taped a note to the bridge rail honoring their wonderful father, while most of the people in the community pretty much felt, "Good riddance, one less cull dragging our community down."


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

BlueShoe said:


> I don't live in that area, but this location is close to one of our forum members here who I've pm'ed with in the past. It's a place where you step outside of your car and you hear no man-made noise. I'd love to live there. Communities used to have a process to rid themselves of these people, but most people today live within the law.


Certain opportunities can and do show up on occasions, I'd like to think that those people could be fed to the mountain lions and bears. I have heard stories of a family dog bringing home a human bone after the disappearance of a person a few years before, I understand that he wasn't such an outstanding individual either so sometimes the Golden Rule, Karma or what goes around comes around works. Sometimes it seems like it should have happened far sooner for all the pain and suffering those people caused in others lives.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

hiwall said:


> Some boards with nails sticking up and then lightly covered with leaves, clippings, etc will make a good alarm system. When those nails go into their feet they will not by quiet anymore. At that point what you do to them is your own business.


 Many good ideas like this but sadly the families of the bad guy, outstanding citizen that they are, sometime sue the victims for entrapment. As usual rotten apples don't fall far from the family tree.


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## lovetogrow (Jan 25, 2011)

Well obviously these thieves (parents included) are so brazen they have been at it a very long time...way of life for them. If the sherif’s hands are tied then why not have a few neighbors discreetly and undetected post flyers with the thieves faces plastered all over them on roadway fences, poles and in various key locations in town (be sure to write THIEF in large bold florescent colors as the header). What are they going to do about it, complain to the sheriff? Besides if carefully played who can prove who posted (be sure to wear hoodies )


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

I know of a perfect solution, gather up some liberal bleeding hearts and have them hug and coddle the criminals until they fell better about themselves and become upright contributing members of the community.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Tirediron said:


> I know of a perfect solution, gather up some liberal bleeding hearts and have them hug and coddle the criminals until they fell better about themselves and become upright contributing members of the community.


Is that how you do things north of the border, eh?


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Not sure it would go down quite like that, it might involve physical contact but a little more up to date, treat them like computers ,punch information into them. it seems to stick better that way.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

I read through the posts and I don't think that this was brought up. Use camp warning alerts. I've seen them on you tube and on a few of the Alaskan shows for bear warnings. They work by a trip (fish line) line to a hidden 12 gauge blank shell firing device. When tripped they fire the blank towards the ground. They are reasonably cheap ($25-$45 each). 

If these guys are druggies the noise will scare the crap out of them. Your involvement may not even be required. I doubt that the criminals will call the police but they will think that they were being shot at.

The sheriff (if he investigates) will understand what's going on when he gets a call from known trouble makers that they were shot at while trespassing on a neighbors property. I know my sheriff would not care about it.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Tweto said:


> I read through the posts and I don't think that this was brought up. Use camp warning alerts. I've seen them on you tube and on a few of the Alaskan shows for bear warnings. They work by a trip (fish line) line to a hidden 12 gauge blank shell firing device. When tripped they fire the blank towards the ground. They are reasonably cheap ($25-$45 each).


I saw something similar on Hillbilly Blood. They used a small mortar type explosive (more than what you were talking about) and the damn thing sounded like a stick of dynamite going off!


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## piglett (Dec 10, 2010)

OP your saying that there are a number of people in the area who are upset with these little punks?
what would the result be if 10 men showed up on foot (vehicles parked a 1/2 miles away) with face masks on. these men could call themselves the "your leaving town for good club" so they kick the door in while others smash every window out on the cotton pickin house. once having entered the house the boys are drug outside & told that they will be leaving town or really bad things will happen the next time we have to come back. 

who here thinks they will figured out that it's time to move along?

if they don't get it them bring 20 men the next time
& step it up a notch

no need to kill them just make them feel unwelcome


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Really*



piglett said:


> OP your saying that there are a number of people in the area who are upset with these little punks?
> what would the result be if 10 men showed up on foot (vehicles parked a 1/2 miles away) with face masks on. these men could call themselves the "your leaving town for good club" so they kick the door in while others smash every window out on the cotton pickin house. once having entered the house the boys are drug outside & told that they will be leaving town or really bad things will happen the next time we have to come back.
> 
> who here thinks they will figured out that it's time to move along?
> ...


Really, Good grief !


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## moondancer (Dec 21, 2013)

Hmmmm it's interesting to me how humans can get so geared up about a thing like this and forget who they are. We are here to talk and support each other in our pursuit to be ready for the end days so that we can go on in life and civilization and if a few punks make some of you get so violent now god it's going to be crazy latter . I for one now feel the need to double my arms prep . Thanks for waking me up yet again


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

moondancer said:


> Hmmmm it's interesting to me how humans can get so geared up about a thing like this and forget who they are. We are here to talk and support each other in our pursuit to be ready for the end days so that we can go on in life and civilization and if a few punks make some of you get so violent now god it's going to be crazy latter . I for one now feel the need to double my arms prep . Thanks for waking me up yet again


Personally I believe if there ever was a nation-wide SHTF situation of a lasting duration extreme violence would be the norm. Humans have always been a violent species. Currently we have a million laws and an equal number of police to enforce those laws and that is the only thing keeping the violence in check. Remove the threat of police response and you will soon see that violence erupt.


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## moondancer (Dec 21, 2013)

I fully agree and know that a locked door only keeps an honest man honest but some times need a wake up . In know way was I putting down anyone's response I was with full heart thanking for the lesson. I my self have had to take life in action while I was in the first gulf war and know how bad the human race can be but hope it never has to be done by me again but also know if it hits the fan will be the new norm . Thank god with my training i hope to make the choice with a calm head and not just anger. I pray that all of you practice calm well thought out decision making (wich in time of need you will only have split seconds) so before any of you do anything take a deep breath( life is the butterfly effect Truly ) so to have went on


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## moondancer (Dec 21, 2013)

Sorry that is


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## piglett (Dec 10, 2010)

BillM said:


> Really, Good grief !


it's a bit out of the norm ....yes
but it will work & they would leave, i know i would

the police can do nothing (or so they say)
so either the people in the area just keep living with these clowns doing whatever they wish to do
OR people get sick & tired of being sick & tired


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Moondancer did ya read the whole thread?? the nice let the authorities look after the problem has failed, apparently no libtards volunteered to hug them honest. the threat of violence would have to be the next step unless you have a more enlightened method you would like to share


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

I think Moondancer should state explicitly what the OP should do. The police have already been approached and they are not taking any meaningful action. Decrying the responses of others is not adequate without offering a better idea, which I think most of us would welcome.

I have been burglarized twice, albeit many years ago. In both cases the police gave me a number so I could make an insurance claim and did nothing else. I solved the problem by moving. The problem described is real and deserves a constructive response.


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## moondancer (Dec 21, 2013)

Oh no I have know other way and I feel for them . History has shown us that man is more violent then any other species on earth and only the strong will survive . I just wanted to put in a calm word don't take it for a weak stand . It's way easier to hurt /kill a man then to heal one . I for one have tried to help a few local ppl that didn't want to change so I know with some ppl there is know other way but pain I just wish there was other ways but know there's more then Likely not


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## moondancer (Dec 21, 2013)

I have a dream of peace and the knowledge of reality of violence


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

I am sure much of what has been posted would not actually be tried, I for one have WAY too much to loose to risk lawsuits when legal ways are available.

For instance in Piglett's scenario (no offense intended) if someone in the house started shooting/killing the masked individuals they would be completely legally justified.


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## ContinualHarvest (Feb 19, 2012)

JayJay said:


> Or set up a kool-aid stand in the garage!!


It would depend on what flavor of Kool-Aid they were Jones-ing for... whether the cops would show up or not.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Moondancer I agree that peaceful would be nice and with low level criminal punks the threat of real violence is a lot more effective than the threat of "the law" the law is predictable. cantankerous hillbillies make it appoint not to be real easy to predict. other than "it could be painful, but it might hurt a lot too"* 

* gopher from winnie the pooh


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

I have had a few bad neighbors in my 60 years. I have tried to handle these problems with the help of the law. It never worked! I found "other" ways to take care of it. Believe me when I say that there are ways to do it and never become the focus of the sheriff. I'm sorry, I will not say how I did it on the internet. I will say that it comes down to being a worse neighbor to them then they are to you. Be creative!


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Tweto said:


> I have had a few bad neighbors in my 60 years. I have tried to handle these problems with the help of the law. It never worked! I found "other" ways to take care of it. Believe me when I say that there are ways to do it and never become the focus of the sheriff. I'm sorry, I will not say how I did it on the internet. I will say that it comes down to being a worse neighbor to them then they are to you. Be creative!


LOL! This is how my dad does it with his ******* neighbor.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

A person needs a couple of semi bad neighbors in stead of one set of really crappy ones.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

piglett said:


> OP your saying that there are a number of people in the area who are upset with these little punks?
> what would the result be if 10 men showed up on foot (vehicles parked a 1/2 miles away) with face masks on. these men could call themselves the "your leaving town for good club" so they kick the door in while others smash every window out on the cotton pickin house. once having entered the house the boys are drug outside & told that they will be leaving town or really bad things will happen the next time we have to come back.
> 
> who here thinks they will figured out that it's time to move along?
> ...


Sorry - but I don't like this idea very much. You are sending the problem away, but, not getting rid of the problem. The next set of neighbors will then have to deal with the problem and not understand the past of these trouble-makers.

I believe that some of the best solutions have already been posted in this thread which include setting up a neighborhood watch on the house and the people inside ... and when the trouble starts, make a proper finish of it so that it cannot / will-not continue in any other neighborhoods. I keep thinking of the book / movie "The Scarlet Letter" - but - maybe something along the lines of "The Scarlet Tattoo" would be more appropriate ...


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

piglett said:


> OP your saying that there are a number of people in the area who are upset with these little punks?
> what would the result be if 10 men showed up on foot (vehicles parked a 1/2 miles away) with face masks on. these men could call themselves the "your leaving town for good club" so they kick the door in while others smash every window out on the cotton pickin house. once having entered the house the boys are drug outside & told that they will be leaving town or really bad things will happen the next time we have to come back.
> who here thinks they will figured out that it's time to move along?
> 
> ...


What you are suggesting is a whole string of felonies. You are also placing the group in a position where the bad guys can legally shoot you and you can't legally defend yourself. The likelihood of someone winding up dead here is very high and then I promise that the sheriff will take interest. We have not yet reached WROL so a lawful solution might be a better option.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Unfortunately, it has become illegal to protect yourself or your property in most parts of the US.


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## piglett (Dec 10, 2010)

cowboyhermit said:


> I am sure much of what has been posted would not actually be tried, I for one have WAY too much to loose to risk lawsuits when legal ways are available.
> 
> For instance in Piglett's scenario (no offense intended) if someone in the house started shooting/killing the masked individuals they would be completely legally justified.


no offense taken
i was saying that there are many ways to skin a cat
what would happen if every vehicle on the property had sugar added to the gas tank? 
or they started having trouble with someone cutting their tires?
like i said no need to kill anyone
just make them feel unwelcome


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

Geek999 said:


> Unfortunately, it has become illegal to protect yourself or your property in most parts of the US.


Actually, protecting yourself in your home is legal in all jurisdictions. Outside the home the rules vary but mostly you still can protect yourself and your family. There are certain rules like you can't shoot someone while they are running away (in most situations). Even if you think you know who the criminals are you can't go to their home and hand out justice as you see fit.

Take a concealed carry class. Even if you don't want to carry a firearm this class teaches you the law in your jurisdiction. Know the self defense law where you live.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

We had some vandalism when we were building our house. Someone(s) wrote obscene words on the basement walls, later tried to pry open the front door and a window. Also cut to ribbons our tent in the back yard.

Now I could make a educated guess on who was doing it. The closest neighbor was upset that we purchased the acreage. They had treated the property as theirs but didn't own it (his Father did). I figured it was their son. 

Now I could call the Sheriff, they could drive out to make a report and I could make allegations. Without proof Sheriff couldn't make an arrest. And I could post on a forum how the Sheriff wouldn't do anything or...

...at church I "happen" to bump into the son's grandfather (person I purchased the property from). During the conversation I mentioned that we've been having some minor vandalism but I figured it was just bored kids. BUT when the tent got cut up I'm now considering getting the Sheriff involved. No screaming, threatening accusations from me, I just played dumb. Grandfather got a strange thoughtful look on his face and changed the subject.

I no longer have any further problems with the neighbors. As a matter of fact a few years later the neighbor lost electrical power for several days. Neighbor built in low land in heavy clay, sump pump keeps his basement dry. I offered to run Romex from my shop thru the woods to his house for power. Neighbor declined my offer.



We live on a rural country road. Someone(s) have been enjoying themselves destroying mailboxes along our road.

It was getting dusk and I had just walk out to get our mail. I heard some quads coming fast so I stepped back into the woods and watched.

2 quads with what looked like young kids with helmets on flew past then slowed to a stop just outside of my line of vision. I heard some metal banging, noise didn't sound right for quad trouble. Quads took off and as I hustled out to the road. I saw them turn into a driveway 1/4 mile down the road and watched the quads headlights bounce all the way back to the house. Quads lights went off, I waited for 5 minutes and didn't hear or see anything more.

Next morning when the wife and I went for our morning walk I saw a damaged metal mailbox about where I would guess the quads had stopped and I had heard the metal banging the night before. Now I could have called the Sheriff, tell him what my suspicions were but I figure why waste his time went again it couldn't be proved?

A week later I "happen" to bump into the Property Owner of where the quads stopped for the night. Asked him if he was aware that mailboxes were being damaged along our road, that a week ago I saw some riders on quads damage a mailbox and head back into the woods close to him (OK I lied) and hope he didn't have any damaged around his place because I would feel bad for not calling the Sheriff. No he wasn't aware of damage, then a strange look thoughtful look on his face as he put 2 and 2 together (he has 2 sons and 2 quads).

No more mailbox damage.

In my life I've found that playing dumb usually gets better results then jumping up and down screaming mad and posting my frustration on a forum does.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Caribou said:


> Actually, protecting yourself in your home is legal in all jurisdictions. Outside the home the rules vary but mostly you still can protect yourself and your family. There are certain rules like you can't shoot someone while they are running away (in most situations). Even if you think you know who the criminals are you can't go to their home and hand out justice as you see fit.
> 
> Take a concealed carry class. Even if you don't want to carry a firearm this class teaches you the law in your jurisdiction. Know the self defense law where you live.


That is absolutely false here in NJ. There is no concealed carry, and if you defend yourself in your own home you absolutely will be arrested.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

One of the local neighbors had trouble with their mail box being run over every month or 2. After this happened 3 or 4 times, he decided to put in a solid steel pole mounted in concrete 6 feet deep and then painted it wood color. About a month later, he went out to get his mail and found a pick-up truck on the side of the road all smashed up and had rolled a few times. No one was in it. The mail box was still there, put some of the paint was missing!


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Geek999 said:


> That is absolutely false here in NJ. There is no concealed carry, and if you defend yourself in your own home you absolutely will be arrested.


Can you link the NJ law/government site that says this please. I'm interested to read it.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

Over the years we've had mail box bangers damage mail boxes on our rural road, sometimes totally destroying them so I built a 1/4"shell around ours and welded the base to a 4"X4"X1/2" angle buried in cement. I would have liked to see what happened when someone hit it with what looked like a water pipe, I was hoping that the pipe bounced back and broke a side window on their vehicle. The pipe strike only put a small dent in the corner but my guess is that it stung their hand in doing so and since then it hasn't happened again. Once again I will say that these evil community culls we've been talking about are often bullies, if you had been in school with them they were probably the ones bullying on the playgrounds, guys that needed to get so beat up they could barely remember their own name because just beating them up most often never changed the way they were. The guys I mentioned that had prison time for game violations went right back to what they were doing and they still had their guns, were doing drugs and when the sheriff was called due to them shooting at 1:00 AM all the sheriff would say is "We didn't catch them doing this so there is nothing we can do." These guys have never done things to us but I suspect they know they would be picking on the wrong family. It just surprises me that in all the years these guys have been doing these evil things that no one has caught them and put a final stop to it all.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

In some states it is legal to use lethal force to stop a felony.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Grimm said:


> Can you link the NJ law/government site that says this please. I'm interested to read it.


Actually, if you just google NJ concealed carry you'll rapidly learn that there is a supposed CCW permit in NJ. However, there are only about 32000 issued in a state with 1.4 million gun owners. Those few belong to a mix of cops, retired cops, and politically connected individuals. Normal people are routinely denied. We have a variety of other impediments to gun ownership including a One Gun a Month rule, limits on transportation of firearms, our own state level assault weapons ban, magazine limits, etc. After Newtown 76 new bills were introduced and the only thing that slowed them down was Chris Christie's Presidential ambitions.

NJ is a blue state and tends to have an anti-gun bias like NY, MA, etc. These states all vary in their approach. For instance in NY it is very difficult to get a carry permit, but if you got one decades ago, then it is still valid upstate. NJ probably has fewer CCW permits in the hands of the public per capita than any place except I'll, which will soon be issuing them under their new state law.

As for the right to defend yourself, I was attacked in my home by a juvenile, who was already on probation for vandalism. It didn't escalate beyond a shoving match, but I was told directly by the police afterward that if any injury happened to the teenager I would be arrested. They said it was their job to protect the juvenile and not their job to protect me. My attorney advised defending myself, allowing the arrest, and then he would fight it out in court. He delivered this advice in front of the Chief of Police. This was about 15 years ago and the teenager, who is now about 30, is a full blown schizophrenic. There has been at least one SWAT raid in which he was the target.

If attacked again, I will follow my attorney's advice, but I fully expect to be arrested in that circumstance.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Geek999 said:


> Actually, if you just google NJ concealed carry you'll rapidly learn that there is a supposed CCW permit in NJ.


I did google it and found no NJ government site with any info about the law(s). If you have a site with the actually law sited share. I don't trust non official websites that seem to be full of bull poop.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Grimm said:


> I did google it and found no NJ government site with any info about the law(s). If you have a site with the actually law sited share. I don't trust non official websites that seem to be full of bull poop.


You mean like this one?


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Geek999 said:


> You mean like this one?


Now I remember why you were on my ignore list...


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

The best source is this:

http://www.evannappen.com/

Evan Nappen is an attorney who will probably be the first to get a case regaarding NJ gun laws before the Supreme Court. His book is sort of the "bible" for NJ Gun Owners.

For a quick summary:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_New_Jersey

Or:

http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/new-jersey.aspx

Note that while there is a "may issue" CCW on the books, as a practical matter they are very rare and generally only go to someone with connections.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Geek999 said:


> The best source is this:
> 
> http://www.evannappen.com/
> 
> Evan Nappen is an attorney who will probably be the first to get a case regaarding NJ gun laws before the Supreme Court. His book is sort of the "bible" for NJ Gun Owners.


Sooooo, you link a site for an attorney that has an agenda instead of the ACTUAL law from oh, say the state's website? How do I know the guy isn't a lying sack of horse poo?

I'm not trying to fight. I want to read the law from a government site because then I can see what it really says instead of everyone else's spin on it.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Well, there is the law and there is the application of the law. If you understand the difference between a "shall issue" state and a "may issue" state, then legally NJ is a "may issue" state. The practical application of that in NJ is CCW permits are as rare as hen's teeth.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

Grimm said:


> Now I remember why you were on my ignore list...


"If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet."


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

mike_dippert said:


> You need a CC permit to use a gun in self defense in your own home? Or are you talking self defense in public.


That is a different subject than the CCW. Effectively outside the home you cannot be armed. As a practical matter, inside the home you can be armed, but if you shoot a home invader, you are not protected by any Castle Doctrine or Stand Your Ground Statutes. You will likely be arrested and charged and the then it is up to the courts.

By law you can also be armed outdoors on your property, but unless you are in a very secluded area, standing in your driveway with a holster on your belt may get you arrested and again you get to fight it out in court.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

I found the NJ Code. The relevant section for gun control is 2C.

http://lis.njleg.state.nj.us/cgi-bi...infobase=statutes.nfo&softpage=TOC_Frame_Pg42


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Here is an earlier thread on this forum on the subject of NJ gun laws.

http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f26/brian-aitken-victim-new-jersey-anti-2a-judge-21955/


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

mike_dippert said:


> You need a CC permit to use a gun in self defense in your own home? Or are you talking self defense in public.


The Supreme Court has declared that you have a constitutional right to keep a gun in your home, the Heller Case if memory serves.

Every State has a concealed carry provision. Geek is correct that some States are "May Issue" States. In these States it is often difficult to acquire a permit. PA has a reputation as a rather gun unfriendly jurisdiction. My information says that PA is now a "Shall Issue" State. There have been a lot of changes of late all over the country, some are pro gun and some are not.

Here is a link to permit info for each State.

http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry_permit_information.html

If you ever have to defend yourself be prepared to go to jail. They may not haul you off but if they do it is just part of their procedure, don't sweat it. Keep quiet and get an attorney let the attorney do the talking. Remember, as they lock you up, only living people get arrested. This is far too involved to cover in a post so I will stop here.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

> If you ever have to defend yourself be prepared to go to jail. They may not haul you off but if they do it is just part of their procedure, don't sweat it. Keep quiet and get an attorney let the attorney do the talking. Remember, as they lock you up, only living people get arrested.


Reposted so everyone has to read it again!

If you have a desire for gun rights move to Arizona. Carry open most anywhere. Carry concealed most anywhere. And you do not need any permit.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Caribou said:


> The Supreme Court has declared that you have a constitutional right to keep a gun in your home, the Heller Case if memory serves.
> 
> Every State has a concealed carry provision. Geek is correct that some States are "May Issue" States. In these States it is often difficult to acquire a permit. PA has a reputation as a rather gun unfriendly jurisdiction. My information says that PA is now a "Shall Issue" State. There have been a lot of changes of late all over the country, some are pro gun and some are not.
> 
> ...


Thanks. What a lot of folks don't seem to understand is that "May Issue" gives discretion to someone to turn down the CCW application even if you have met all of the requirements. As an example, here in NJ there was a case awhile back where a man was kidnapped, beaten, and ultimately dumped in Ohio, fortunately still alive. When he applied for a CCW he was denied.

May issue really is a fig leaf so the state can say it is in compliance with the 2nd amendment. Until NJ or a similar state makes it to the US Supreme Court and wins a case, we don't have the right to carry in "May Issue" states.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

hiwall said:


> Reposted so everyone has to read it again!
> 
> If you have a desire for gun rights move to Arizona. Carry open most anywhere. Carry concealed most anywhere. And you do not need any permit.


Thanks. I am actively considering places to move within a few years. Does Arizona have Castle Doctrine, Stand Your Ground, etc.?


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

> Does Arizona have Castle Doctrine, Stand Your Ground, etc.?


Sorry I really don't know. 
I do know that a large portion of the police are very cool about citizens carrying guns(they just about have to be as it is so common).


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

Geek999 said:


> Thanks. I am actively considering places to move within a few years. Does Arizona have Castle Doctrine, Stand Your Ground, etc.?


Yes. If you go back to the link I posted earlier in this thread and click on AZ, or any other State, on the map and you can read it for yourself.

P.S. AZ is a constitutional carry State.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Caribou said:


> Yes. If you go back to the link I posted earlier in this thread and click on AZ, or any other State, on the map and you can read it for yourself.
> 
> P.S. AZ is a constitutional carry State.


Thanks. Castle Doctrine is also very important to me.


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## talob (Sep 16, 2009)

Caribou said:


> The Supreme Court has declared that you have a constitutional right to keep a gun in your home, the Heller Case if memory serves.
> 
> Every State has a concealed carry provision. Geek is correct that some States are "May Issue" States. In these States it is often difficult to acquire a permit. PA has a reputation as a rather gun unfriendly jurisdiction. My information says that PA is now a "Shall Issue" State. There have been a lot of changes of late all over the country, some are pro gun and some are not.
> 
> ...


I tried to go to the website didnt come up but Norton did block an attack on my computer, anyone else?


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

> I tried to go to the website didnt come up but Norton did block an attack on my computer, anyone else?


It is a good site with alot of valuable info.


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## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

Grimm said:


> Can you link the NJ law/government site that says this please. I'm interested to read it.


Grimm, I lived in Soviet New Jersey for several years on account I couldn't get an exit visa. I finally escaped.

NJ is a weird state with a psycho population. They have no right to keep and bear arms. To buy a firearm requires a police dept. issued permit to purchase, two references not relatives to issue permission to purchase, finger prints on file and a psychological exam within a specified time frame.

Then the permit to purchase is denied.

A good friend was a cop and he told me all about all the people who go to jail for self defense because NJ has no such thing as "self defense!" It is counter-assault and a felony. Even women who defend against a rape are convicted of counter-assault. Geek is not lying on these issues, your state Soviet Commiefornia is a half step behind NJ and closing for 2014, be ready to be raided.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

VoorTrekker said:


> Grimm, I lived in Soviet New Jersey for several years on account I couldn't get an exit visa. I finally escaped.
> 
> NJ is a weird state with a psycho population. They have no right to keep and bear arms. To buy a firearm requires a police dept. issued permit to purchase, two references not relatives to issue permission to purchase, finger prints on file and a psychological exam within a specified time frame.
> 
> ...


Don't worry. I always expect the police to be at my door seeing as how I already have a criminal record for assault with a deadly weapon, live in BFE and I am a member of this forum.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Grimm said:


> Don't worry. I always expect the police to be at my door seeing as how I already have a criminal record for assault with a deadly weapon, live in BFE and I am a member of this forum.


Here you'll never find them at your door. You'll find them in your kitchen drinking your coffee even though you never let them in.


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## musketjim (Dec 7, 2011)

Johnny Law will be of no assistance, if history up here is any indication. Live video feed is a nice idea, but when you confront them then what? Non-lethal tazer or pepper spray makes you an aggressor and you're screwed.:gaah: I feel for you. The modern judicial system perpetuates and encourages this type of behavior. Unfortunately no solution from me.


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## brucehylton (Nov 6, 2010)

Always remember and never forget. What goes around, comes around. Watch for it and you will see.


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## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

Grimm, I feel for you.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Geek999 said:


> Here you'll never find them at your door. You'll find them in your kitchen drinking your coffee even though you never let them in.


I seem to find myself sitting in their kitchen drinking their coffee!

My cousin's hubby is one of the shining boys in blue with the NYPD. 
That is why I am curious about the NJ gun laws.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Grimm said:


> I seem to find myself sitting in their kitchen drinking their coffee!
> 
> My cousin's hubby is one of the shining boys in blue with the NYPD.
> That is why I am curious about the NJ gun laws.


There are some differences between NY and NJ gun laws, but they're both pretty bad compared to the rest of the country.

Ask your cousin's hubby about the NY trigger and why it was implemented.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

TheLazyL said:


> In my life I've found that playing dumb usually gets better results then jumping up and down screaming mad and posting my frustration on a forum does.


You've been blessed. Many parents are in denial about their little angel, have no control over him, &/or couldn't care less what he's doing. Unfortunately, those parents are somebody's neighbors.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

TheLazyL said:


> If you ever have to defend yourself be prepared to go to jail. They may not haul you off but if they do it is just part of their procedure, don't sweat it. Keep quiet and get an attorney let the attorney do the talking. Remember, as they lock you up, only living people get arrested. This is far too involved to cover in a post so I will stop here.


I can't imagine that. I would consider the arrest an assault & attempted kidnapping & respond accordingly. Itd be one ugly senerio. One of the many reasons I will never visit a blue state.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

tsrwivey said:


> I can't imagine that. I would consider the arrest an assault & attempted kidnapping & respond accordingly. Itd be one ugly senerio. One of the many reasons I will never visit a blue state.


In this scenario you have just survived a shootout with a bad guy while the coroner is being called for your assailant. Do you really want to start another gun fight, this time with the cops? It all depends on the cop on scene. Texas, by the news reports, seems to have a mixed bag when it comes to sheriffs.


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## Jimthewagontraveler (Feb 8, 2012)

1 This of course has nothing to do with anything Im just an an old geezer who likes to spout philosophy.
2 Dont try this at home.
Etc etc etc ad infinitum.
Now with that behind us I shall begin spouting!
Carried by six or tried by twelve your call.
Dead men tell no tales.
55 gal drums marked GASOLINE! CAUTION! DANGER! NO SMOKING WITHIN 300 YARDS! When filled with water and topped of with 1 gal of gas make for very humerous local coffee shop videos!
Shiny high dollar items [think chainsaw] that are internally destroid make for great videos when epoxied to 75 lb items.[just heavy enough that they CAN be carried away.]
Theives have to sleep and usually have times when no one is home just like regular folks.
Driveways full of nails are easy for a smart person to pick up but hard for a stupid person to suspect.
Plain iron water pipe makes a very good signal cannon.
Lemon soaked sand [dehydrated] in the eye is painful.
Dead fish stink.
Being on the receiving end of 4lbs of number 4 bird shot is scary even when delivered from 200 yards from a water baloon sling shot.
Large washers delivered from a wrist rocket sling shot sound like something that should go BOOM on arrival.
Bass pro sells skunk scent online.
AND FURTHERMORE I LIKE SWISS MISS COCOA IN MY COFFEE.
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH EATING GREEN BEANS FROM THE CAN!
NEVER EVER PUT GREEN BEANS IN YOUR SWISS MISS COFFEE!!!!!!!!!!
What were we talking about again?


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

tsrwivey said:


> I can't imagine that. I would consider the arrest an assault & attempted kidnapping & respond accordingly. Itd be one ugly senerio. One of the many reasons I will never visit a blue state.


The West coast for all intents and purposes is blue. There are pockets and large areas that run totally opposed to that thinking but the trouble is we are not the major voting block. Here in Oregon it's like an inverted L where most all of the Eastern portion (farm and ranch) and the lower third of the Western portion (below Eugene) that has the forgotten ones, those of us that are not on the government tit, our votes end up not meaning much of anything. But thank God we are pretty much left alone and the sheriffs departments are happy that we are armed to the teeth, if we qualify they are very happy to issue CCW. I know that a large portion of Northern California is also the forgotten ones and many there are pushing for a state of Jefferson, we here in Southern Oregon would be happy to be a part of that. I'm sure Washington has it's forgotten areas as well, even when I didn't know much about "real' conservative issues I knew that the voting block, when I lived there, was the I-5 strip from Olympia to Seattle. That was up to the 1960's so my guess is that the ultra liberalism has spread a great deal since, it's so sad that wherever free money, food and housing is given without a persons labor to receive it the votes go to people that don't give a rip about the Constitution or Bill of Rights. P.S. We will no longer drive any further South into California than we have to, If we have to go South we will do so through Nevada.


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## bbrider (Sep 27, 2013)

A short time ago, in pierce county, wa, we had a elderly gentleman and his wife woke up by a 20 something man, high on drugs, breaking through the front door. The home owner confronted the intruder, but the intruder didn't even slow down. The intruder began beating the home owner and the homeowner fired all the rounds in his 9mm hand gun. He hit the intruder twice with lethal results. At no time during the investigation did the sheriffs deputies treat the home owner as a criminal. Before the investigation was over, the homeowner was allowed to leave the scene. 
Now, I know that WA is a pretty blue state, but we have a state constitution and LEO's that are strongly in favor of the 2nd amendment. As long as we can continue to hold off the control folks, we will hold our own...


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

I have met some folks who claim to have bros who ride in different parts of the country. When the need arises some will visit each others turf to resolve the problem while the local boy is in a highly visible public event. The story says that a few broken bones and a warning goes a long way in resolving these kinds of problems.

Of course I have heard that the local scum bag will make a report to the police that may sound something like. Officer these guys with long hair and beards wearing black leathers came into my and broke my arms a legs than left on black motorcycles. My neighbor is a biker. I can prove it he was at that biker pool tournament two towns over right about the time my arm was snapping like a twig. 

One guy claims that happened to a neighbor of his almost 15 years ago and that neighbor still brings him fresh eggs every week and produce every spring.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

bbrider said:


> Now, I know that WA is a pretty blue state, but we have a state constitution and LEO's that are strongly in favor of the 2nd amendment. As long as we can continue to hold off the control folks, we will hold our own...


Washington State has some of the best SD law in the country. The first concealed carry state has always had a castle and stand your ground doctrine not as a specific law but the standard fall back position of the courts. Despite the fact that the 1-5 corridor gives the state a bad rap truth is most of the state is pretty civilized. In our state you can hunt down and use deadly on someone fleeing a felony. Not so long ago a guy followed a dude who had burglarized his neighbor, when the burglar refused to stop several blocks away and tried to flee he got shot in the back. No charges were filed. One unique law Washington has that other states lack is that if you are charged in a shooting and prove self defense the state is required to pay all of your legal fees including expert testimony. Meaning even the poorest citizen can afford to have the best possible legal defense available, if they acted in self defense. That statue keep overzealous anti self defense fanatic persecutors from abusing their powers


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

That sounds good, but can a blue state retain that sort of position over the next couple decades? There isn't a lot of point moving somewhere only to have it turn into a place like NJ after I've made the move.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

Caribou said:


> In this scenario you have just survived a shootout with a bad guy while the coroner is being called for your assailant. Do you really want to start another gun fight, this time with the cops? It all depends on the cop on scene. Texas, by the news reports, seems to have a mixed bag when it comes to sheriffs.


I really wouldn't want to but I have issues with being treated like a criminal. I don't know that I could muster up enough self control to go nicely. 

I live in east Texas, to say we're old school would be a major understatement. A sheriff would never dream of filing charges in any situation related to SD or defense of property, even if he wanted to. You're pretty safe in Texas as long as you steer clear of Austin, Dallas, & Houston. Most of those folks aren't Texans but transplants from blue states fleeing the consequences of those ideas but bringing them with them anyway.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Use of Force*

Everyone should read the actual law as it applies to the use of force in their own state and particularly the use of deadly force.

Information gained from internet chat sites and prepper sites if rife with misinformation.

I was a Deputy Sheriff and absolutely know the law as it relates to these issues in my own state.

I also know plenty of citizens , who are law abiding educated people who harbor misinformation regarding the use of force that could either get them killed or cause them to loose their liberty and become felons just because they listened to their misinformed friends and acquaintances.

Two of the most misunderstood laws are the" Castel Doctrine" and the "Stand your ground" laws.

Not knowing when you can shoot and when you can not shoot, what to say and not say can get you killed or put in jail for murder or assault.

Bold talk about these issues in public and on the internet will come back to haunt you if and when you are ever in a deadly force incident.

Bumper stickers and signs on your vehicle and property will likewise become a huge problem in court.

Learn the law !

A lot of speculation about how it won't count when TSHTF is just wrong and that kind of chatter will hurt you even if you are justified in the use of force.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

Geek999 said:


> That sounds good, but can a blue state retain that sort of position over the next couple decades? There isn't a lot of point moving somewhere only to have it turn into a place like NJ after I've made the move.


Washington State has a pretty solid pro gun rights foundation even among the liberal set. Guns are a way of life out here. Maybe to put it in perspective Washington is WEST of Texas and historically far MORE gun friendly. Granted we have a lot of room for improvement and far from being a completely free state but we are moving in the right direction. Case in point in the last year the use of suppressors once prohibited are now OK to use here. Last point the Second Amendment Foundation of Heller vs DC and McDonald vs Illinois (far more pro 2A than the NRA) is Washington based and very plugged into our states gun issues.

It really is the 1-5 Corridor (Seattle) that is blue the rest of the state is pretty intelligent and civilized.



BillM said:


> Not knowing when you can shoot and when you can not shoot, what to say and not say can get you killed or put in jail for murder or assaultsnip ............................ Learn the law !


Most excellent points I am a big advocate that anyone who carries attend at least a MAG 40 class and more if possible. At the very least attend one of Massad Ayoobs seminars. Attorneys prosecutors and judges routinely say they learn more from a Massad Ayoob seminar on Self Defense law than they ever learned in law school. The few hundred you will spend for one of his courses can save you tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars and your life. his book "In The Gravest Extreme" is a good primer


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

LongRider said:


> Washington State has a pretty solid pro gun rights foundation even among the liberal set. Guns are a way of life out here. Maybe to put it in perspective Washington is WEST of Texas and historically far MORE gun friendly. Granted we have a lot of room for improvement and far from being a completely free state but we are moving in the right direction. Case in point in the last year the use of suppressors once prohibited are now OK to use here. Last point the Second Amendment Foundation of Heller vs DC and McDonald vs Illinois (far more pro 2A than the NRA) is Washington based and very plugged into our states gun issues.
> 
> It really is the 1-5 Corridor (Seattle) that is blue the rest of the state is pretty intelligent and civilized.


I get what you're saying. Vermont is much the same where it is gun friendly but has had an influx of liberals, resulting in politicians like Howard Dean.

However, if the demographics keep moving blue, I would expect things to change for the worse, similar to the way Colorado just changed its laws.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

tsrwivey said:


> I really wouldn't want to but I have issues with being treated like a criminal. I don't know that I could muster up enough self control to go nicely.
> 
> I live in east Texas, to say we're old school would be a major understatement. A sheriff would never dream of filing charges in any situation related to SD or defense of property, even if he wanted to. You're pretty safe in Texas as long as you steer clear of Austin, Dallas, & Houston. Most of those folks aren't Texans but transplants from blue states fleeing the consequences of those ideas but bringing them with them anyway.


Sounds like you have a fairly good Sheriff. The deputy that shows up may be another matter, there is always some "luck of the draw" factor here. I'm only suggesting that an attitude may not be in your best interest.

Point out any evidence, as it can get ignored. State that you feared for your life. Then state that you will answer any questions after you have spoken with your attorney. Then shut up. Too many innocent people talk their way in to prison.

First, re-read BillM's post then click on the link at the bottom of this post. Go to the "Journal" and read the past newsletters. ASLDN is an organization who's goal is to educate people on how to survive the legal system. The president of the company in Marty Hayes J.D. The Advisory Board includes Dennis Tueller, Massad Ayoob, John Farnham, Tom Givens, Jim Flemming, and Emanuel Kapelsohn. These men are some of the top instructors in the country and are often called as expert witnesses in self defense shootings.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

LongRider said:


> ... to put it in perspective Washington is WEST of Texas and historically far MORE gun friendly.


*Sigh* ... it does indeed appear to be swinging that direction.



LongRider said:


> . Massad Ayoob ... his book "In The Gravest Extreme" is a good primer


An excellent book, and should just about be a "must read" before anyone is allowed to carry concealed.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

BillM said:


> Not knowing when you can shoot and when you can not shoot, what to say and not say can get you killed or put in jail for murder or assault.
> 
> Bold talk about these issues in public and on the internet will come back to haunt you if and when you are ever in a deadly force incident.
> 
> ...


I watch court TV, and every other case I watch the prosecutor has the total history of the accused blog/forum or article comments that show intent that is related to the case and it will get you convicted. I smart person does not talk about these things in print, ANYWHERE!


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## BlueShoe (Aug 7, 2010)

On another site I post on someone testified that was sitting in his living room when the neighbor across the street (who he claims was on steroids and cocaine) kicked in his door, knocked his wife down and started assaulting him. He fire one shot point-blank from a .45 and the intruder walked out on his own power. The DA brought charges against the home owner and when he finally got them released the intruder sued him. I didn't take note of the state, but it was a Blue state toward the Maryland/Delware and maybe even NJ area. He said his rights were in serious peril for a long time and then the legal battle from the neighbor was another battle.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

In most states you have no protection from civil suits after a legal shooting.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Good Neighbors*

I had a good neighbor who was dying. He was afraid that when he died and was being buried , that someone would break in and steal his wife's property.

They were going to his former town and would be gone for several days.

I agreed to do this for them but required them to hire me and sign an agreement that gave me the right to act on their behalf.

Example:

SECURITY AGREEMENT
Name :
Address:
Date:

I ____________________ the owner/resident of the property located at ______________________ do 
hereby enter into an agreement with my neighbor ________________________ who resides at _____________________ employing him for the sum of five dollars to provide security for my residence from and hazard or intruder during my absents.
This agreement will continue in perpetuity until canceled by written notice of either party.
He may enter my residence and act on my behalf as if I was present to detain any intruder who enters the residence until such time as the law enforcement officials arrive.
He may request and or eject and trespasser from the grounds.
He may hire or contract with any workman or company to repair any damage to my property as he deems necessary.
Property owner/ resident_________________________
Contracted security provider_______________________
Witness _____________________________________

In KY you are on pretty good legal ground regarding your own property or residence.

On your neighbors property you do not have the same latitude unless the neighbor gives it to you and you need to be able to prove it.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

LincTex said:


> An excellent book, and should just about be a "must read" before anyone is allowed to carry concealed.


I ordered "In The Gravest Extreme", it's here & it was published in 1980. I'm not a close follower of gun or SD laws, but hasn't A LOT changed since 1980? I'll read it if it's the best out there but I don't have time to waste. That 20 month old boss of mine runs a tight ship & he doesn't have much use for sitting around reading books.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

tsrwivey said:


> I ordered "In The Gravest Extreme", it's here & it was published in 1980. I'm not a close follower of gun or SD laws, but hasn't A LOT changed since 1980? I'll read it if it's the best out there but I don't have time to waste. That 20 month old boss of mine runs a tight ship & he doesn't have much use for sitting around reading books.


Some of this book is dated but the majority is still valid. It will not take a long time to read and it will stimulate your thinking. I recommend it. I bought my copy in late 1980 or early 1980. every now and again I reread it.


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## HardCider (Dec 13, 2013)

The sad part is most maggots only get more dangerous and bold, especially when looking for drug money. Last year a group of 3 masked scum kicked in a door of 2 elderly people, pistol whipped the old man and carried off what they wanted. They hit several places until they picked on the wrong one. Problem gone forever. No charges filed. 

I totally respect the law. My little brother is law enforce. But remember they are not here to protect, just respond after the fact. Learn to protect your own. And like what was said above, take a CCW class to learn what to say and not say afterwards


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

HardCider said:


> I totally respect the law. My little brother is law enforce. But remember they are not here to protect, just respond after the fact. Learn to protect your own. And like what was said above, take a CCW class to learn what to say and not say afterwards


This does not apply in NJ, NY, CA, DC, etc.


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## HardCider (Dec 13, 2013)

I don't think I would want to live anywhere it is illegal to defend yourself in your own home. I realize you do not require a CCW while in your own home but the legal portion of this type of class or researching the topic could save you a legal nightmare. Also learning a weapon until it's second nature to you could save you a legal nightmare as well as your life and your family. Even with a legal nightmare the old saying still applies, better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

HardCider said:


> I don't think I would want to live anywhere it is illegal to defend yourself in your own home. I realize you do not require a CCW while in your own home but the legal portion of this type of class or researching the topic could save you a legal nightmare. Also learning a weapon until it's second nature to you could save you a legal nightmare as well as your life and your family. Even with a legal nightmare the old saying still applies, better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6


Unfortunately, 1/3 of the US population lives in such places. 2nd Amendment is dead in those places and dying elsewhere.


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## HardCider (Dec 13, 2013)

I'm afraid you are right. And not just the 2nd Amendment. Some would like to flush the entire Con. and the Bill of Rights. All it takes these days is a pen


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## cqp33 (Apr 2, 2012)

There is an election sign near where I live that is on a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood, it says "Stop Electing IDIOT's" and idiot's is in really large font, I love it!


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

HardCider said:


> I'm afraid you are right. And not just the 2nd Amendment. Some would like to flush the entire Con. and the Bill of Rights. All it takes these days is a pen


I respectfully disagree.

All it takes is good men to standby and do nothing.


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