# This illustrates the tactical threat posed by Helos



## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

In the attached pic u can see the Boston bomber lying under a tarp in a boat.
His infrared signature is radiating thru the tarp.

When evading the _first string air search assets_ of a major nation state one must adjust tactics.

In this case lying UNDER the boat would have likely protected him from IR detction view above.

(Ok, I don't want to start a nit picky discussion with certain members of "yes but ,bla,bla the homeowner could have then seen him more easily from the side saw him bla bla", that's all irrelevant and not serving to illustrate anything as it only pertains to a specific situation.
And I am obviously not tyring to advocate terrorisyts being able to hid better but I want to use this pic to dirve home a lesson to patriots who may have to oppose an armed invasion at some point however unlikely that may be.
Lets just leave it at that )

The point I am hoping to make is that in certain tactical situations evasion rules are different now than in the past.

Now the attached image shows what this technology can do under near ideal conditions:
- only 1 tarp is covering him, he is not under the deck of a boat
- its wintertime
- the body was bleeding extra heat due just plain bleeding.

No mater how fearsome a technology appears it van be defeated by a thinking individual.

I imagine this could be a additional useful of a reflective heat blanket, especially if its 2 of them.

Or lying on hot summertime street under the front of a recently run car should be able to decisively defeat this technology as well.

Just thinking aloud about hypothetical situations..


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## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

Yep, thermal imagery works very good in some situations, not so good in others. Same for night vision. All of it can be defeated if you know how it works.


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## Cabowabo (Nov 6, 2012)

LEO, Military, Gov will always have this ability. Their are ways to defeat the Imagers, you just have to figure out how.


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## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

Mostly, thermal imagery doesn't work so well in urban environment, too much hot stuff.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

> Mostly, thermal imagery doesn't work so well in urban environment, too much hot stuff.


I would guess it is the same story out in the desert.


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## Ezmerelda (Oct 17, 2010)

hiwall said:


> I would guess it is the same story out in the desert.


Temperatures are actually fairly cool in the desert at night. So, the longer the night wears on, the cooler the surroundings get. I've seen FLIR images from Desert Storm, and the bodies and truck engines glow to high heaven! They are immediately discernible from their surroundings.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Ezmerelda said:


> Temperatures are actually fairly cool in the desert at night. So, the longer the night wears on, the cooler the surroundings get. I've seen FLIR images from Desert Storm, and the bodies and truck engines glow to high heaven! They are immediately discernible from their surroundings.


My tactical knowledge of IR detection could be written on the head of a pin
But I do know that south facing rocks hold their heat for awhile. In the desert the night and day temp swings are amazing. 40 degree swings here are the norm.


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

In open uncluttered terrain of uniform heat it works quite well.
The point is if you are trying to avoid dectedion you want either put your body near irregular shaped hot iytems such as next to or under a recently run engine or under several layer of thick stuff ( basements) or under large heat reflective blankets


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## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

Can it see you if you're under the ground in a tunnel or a culvert under the road?


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

We have handheld / vehicle mount FLIR in some of our patrol vehicles and they work very well. I could not count on both hands and feet how many people we captured or found in the last couple years because of FLIR. They do have limitations, but so does every other piece of equipment ever made. But those limitations are minimized via training and application of the device. And like all technology based devices, each new generation is better than the last. 

One summer I was on patrol with a partner searching for a drunk driver who killed a teenager in an accident then fled the scene on foot. We were driving through a heavily wooded area with a maze of jogging trails (on ATV's) watching a plethora of wildlife that we never would have seen without the FLIR. Then way off in the distance you could see a yellowish red lump. We tracked it down and found the drunk driver. He was laying in some bushed and had covered himself with a garbage bag. We would never have found him with flashlights. He got 12-15 years in the penitentiary for vehicular manslaughter on a plea agreement.


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

lazydaisy67 said:


> Can it see you if you're under the ground in a tunnel or a culvert under the road?


No, it cannot see you in down there.

A good rule of thumb I think might be this consideration:

- Imagine it was winter... would that cover be too thin to keep the snow and ice melting above you if you were right under?

if the answer is yes, you can be detected. 
If the answer is no you cannot.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Um, let's pretend I know nothing for a minute.
Wouldn't it be worthless if the ground/air temp was in the high 90's or 100 degrees?
Doesn't it totally depend on temperature variances? So if everything around you is 98.6 you are invisible? Anyone know how small of temp change is required to make something fairly visible? 5 degrees? 10 degrees?
Do hot chicks really make the alarm go off?


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

hiwall said:


> Um, let's pretend I know nothing for a minute.
> Wouldn't it be worthless if the ground/air temp was in the high 90's or 100 degrees?
> Doesn't it totally depend on temperature variances? So if everything around you is 98.6 you are invisible? Anyone know how small of temp change is required to make something fairly visible? 5 degrees? 10 degrees?
> Do hot chicks really make the alarm go off?


If the ambient tem,p matches your body temp theroretically yes.
but a human body has hotter and cooler spots so I wouldnt rely on that.

The many spots on your skin cooler than ambient via sweating would stand out as darnkness.

What you mention is theretically possible, but practically difficult to accomplish.

But if ambient was a hot as a human body and THEN you are under a tarp you might be ok as the tarp might diffuse your hot and cool spots.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Some FLIR pics just for the fun of it. FLIR is not just for locating people, it helps you see the entire area more clearly.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Looks like "resistance is futile". How I long for days gone by when things were much simpler.


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## HamiltonFelix (Oct 11, 2011)

Interesting. Good reminder of how far this technology has progressed and how widespread it is becoming. A bit over a decade back, in my VFD days, I recall looking at expensive, somewhat bulky, handheld thermal imagers being sold to wealthy departments as tools to find victims in structural search and rescue work. More recently I have used a very compact thermal imager at work (hydroelectric powerhouse and switch yard) and found it to be very sensitive and able to take good false color digital images at the touch of a button. (As a photographer, this is the first time I have had to allow for my own warm body as a source of light and reflected glare.) 

The above imager was by FLIR, though Fluke also makes nice ones. I note prices have dropped from five figures to low four. It would certainly "see" you if you were a couple of degrees different temperature than your surroundings. I think it behooves anyone who may one day be forced to play the role of fugitive to learn a bit about infrared devices and how to fool them. Assume that anyone seeking you who wants thermal imaging will have it.


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

hiwall said:


> Looks like "resistance is futile". How I long for days gone by when things were much simpler.


resistance is not futile.
When you hear the helicopter don't be on the move be under one of those cars.
See how bright they are under the bottom?
(good pics sentry)

Walking in a cool forest at night at 15 yrd there is little u can do.
but the main threat is helos looking from above.

hear a helo: - Go under a bridge inside a culvert, under a car.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

BlueZ and Sentry18, thank you for answering my questions.


> resistance is not futile.


Don't worry I would never give up! I'll adjust my tactics as necessary.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

*heat blankets*

I do not want to mispeak here, and my guess is that there are some knowledgable people here who will set this straight.

I have looked today to find this information, but haven't found the definitive information yet. I understand that blankets called heat blankets, or survival blankets can prevent you from being seen by heat vision. If this is the case, equipping a survival room or area of our homes could be good at some point in time.

I am going to keep looking for the correct information.


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## OHprepper (Feb 21, 2012)

hiwall said:


> I would guess it is the same story out in the desert.


we used them all the time in afghanistan, and you are absolutely right. you have about an hour or two right after the sun goes down when it is extremely difficult to tell the difference between rocks and animals/people/cars that arent moving. now, we had other ways to tell those things, it just required switching between IR/NVG's. Also, like someone else said (i believe it was Blue) you can tell how hot different spots are on a persons body....we used to look at our own trucks coming through the gate to see which ones shot in a firefight...if it hadnt been that long they would still be glowing in the FLIR. anyway, its a handy tool


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## smaj100 (Oct 17, 2012)

Guys,

I do have some practical and current understanding, and experience with FLIR as it applies to finding things in the dark and making them disappear in big clouds of high explosives and shrapnel. (I is an apache longbow pilot).

Without breaking any rules, I will tell you almost all newer FLIR systems are capable of detecting temp changes of less than 1°F. While the temps approaching equilibrium used to provide a challange finding things at what the FLIR world calls IR crossover (2x per day when manmade and natural objects, are close to the same temp) it wasnt that hard, just had to decrease the range slightly.

You can hide from flir with varying degrees of success, as several have suggested, thermal blankets, lying underwater in a flowing stream or bigger body of water, wet blankets, anything with a thermal mass will shield you, hiding in concrete culverts does the trick nicely as well. You'd be surprised when you know your own weaknesses and get to play the bad guys on the ground occasionally how well and quickly you can bring down your own bird.  

So while it will become harder and harder to hide at night, it's not impossible and will simply require modifying your tactics. Hiding from a very quiet UAV at 10k feet with a super FLIR system will be alot harder than hiding from a helo.


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