# 3 sisters or 12 sisters



## crabapple (Jan 1, 2012)

On another thread we talked about corn flour/corn mill,which lead to preventing pellagra, a vitamin deficiency in niacin/B3 in a very high corn diet.
You can use Calcium Hydroxide(pickling lime) or baking soda to unlock the B3 in your corn.
You can eat other foods high in B3 like roasted peanut,sunflower seeds,mushrooms,beef,lamb.
This lead to using The Three Sisters to help with the B3 intake & what we could exchange as a vegetable in the three sisters.
Like cucumbers & melons instead of squash if you not big on squash.
Any kind of running bean or running southern pea, not just the one used for hundreds of years.
Lettuce & carrots will last longer in the shade.

So what would you change in the three sisters group?

I planted corn in a bed, 4 short rows on six inch centers.
I made at least one ear per stalk.
If you had a 20 foot bed, that 150 ears of corn.
Sorry, I am so long winded.


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

The three sisters works ... why change it?


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## goshengirl (Dec 18, 2010)

*Andi said:


> The three sisters works ... why change it?


We've never done three sisters because we don't eat squash. I like the idea of mixing it up to fit the way we eat. If we can substitute melons or cukes for the squash, we might give it a try next summer.


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## crabapple (Jan 1, 2012)

Like cucumbers & melons instead of squash if you not big on squash.
Any kind of running bean or running southern pea, not just the one used for hundreds of years.

If you do not like a vegetable, then you will not eat it.
Plant what you like, even if you are changing a system that is old as the hills.
Do it now where you have store to fall back on.
You can change back, if it does not work.
I like the sister as they are, but need more corn & beans then squash. 
My father thought 7-350 foot rolls of corn was a minimum for 8 people.
one row 350 long would gave a family of 8 more winter & summer squash then they could eat in a year.
You can not have to much dry corn & dry beans, but the beans could be different kinds as long as you did not save seeds from that row.
Long rows of corn should be 4-6 rows wide, but you can use lots of vegetables in that size corn field.
4 rows wide X 200 hills long.
I planted onions between my sweet peppers this spring.
I planted onions & carrots between my Black jungle butter beans also.
Garlic at the end of my asparagus hills.
I have plant cucumbers with tomatoes on cages for years.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

I have experimented with quite a few variations and I really like growing in this way. We don't use much corn and while it does fine here it isn't our best crop (season is a bit short) so we have tried using sweet corn instead. Then we planted winter squashes and dried beans in a large patch and essentially did no weeding, it was like a jungle but that was fine because we just let things be until fall when we pulled out everything. Squashes were ready for storage, beans were almost dry and sweet corn was ready, definitely one of the easiest piles of veggies we ever produced.
In this way it is easy to have a patch in a remote area. Simply go in and work up a patch or dump a substantial amount of dirt/compost on top of it, then plant the seeds and spread some mulch if desirable. Put up a fence to keep out the critters (much easier because you won't be going in and out all the time), some bird netting on top if you need, and leave it until fall. The fence also works for supporting fabric on top or debris inside if you need a bit of frost protection.

Other times we tried summer squash and real corn but it was sometimes a hassle to harvest without causing too much damage. Now if we add any they are on the edge.

We also had good luck with sunflowers replacing or partially replacing the corn

I am sure I am missing tons of things we have tried, also natives used variations as well that might bear looking into.


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## kyredneck (Aug 12, 2012)

IME, full size pole bean vines weigh heavy on the corn, July storm comes and blows it all down, looks like a Sherman tank drove through it.

A change I would make is space corn at least 12" and use half runner type beans, not full size pole bean. For squash, just leave out enough corn/beans to plant some hills of bush type squash like Picklebush cukes or Butterbush, they still make vines and run on the ground, but they're short vines.

Just saying, I'm thinking about doing this next year.


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

One thing to keep in mind ... If you plan to change a sister, The three sisters is a form of companion planting and the three crops benefit from each other.

Best of luck and let us know how it works out.


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

We aren't big on squash so 1 year I planted watermelon in with the corn. All those big leaves helped keep the weeds down. I don't know offhand what benefits the squash offers to the corn or soil but the melon and corn seemed to work well together. :dunno:


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## kyredneck (Aug 12, 2012)

cowboyhermit said:


> ... we planted winter squashes and dried beans in a large patch and essentially did no weeding, it was like a jungle but that was fine because we just let things be until fall when we pulled out everything. Squashes were ready for storage, beans were almost dry and sweet corn was ready, definitely one of the easiest piles of veggies we ever produced....


I believe this is most likely the original (and probably the best) intent of a three sisters planting, a FALL harvest of dried corn, dried beans, and winter squash



> Other times we tried summer squash and real corn but it was sometimes a hassle to harvest without causing too much damage. Now if we add any they are on the edge.


Exactly. Thank you for making that point.



> We also had good luck with sunflowers replacing or partially replacing the corn


Might try that too if it fits in at the time.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

The way I see it is the squash acts as a living mulch giving weed control, shade for the soil etc, it also has prickles that some pests don't like. 

Seems to me cucumbers would do well though I haven't really tried that much myself, harvesting them would be something to consider but depending on the method of planting (rows) they might be fine. Local conditions will play a part as well. Melons seemed to work fine but we don't grow them much these days. We haven't done much experimenting with a squash replacement because we have really come to love squash, I had never turned down a pumpkin pie (or pumpkin desert of any kind) but now we use several varieties in many different ways.

We have tried adding many things into the area like radishes, lettuce, things that would cover the ground until the plants got established, most worked well. We have also thrown extra onion sets in for the heck of it and they were nice little onions in the fall.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

kyredneck said:


> space corn at least 12" and use half runner type beans, not full size pole bean.


http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/legumes/msg082128245521.html



> Question about 'Half Runners'
> 
> There are 4 different forms of bean growth that I have seen and each form has some variation.
> 
> ...





> "cornfield" beans are any bean that is commonly grown in a cornfield using cornstalks for support. Beans used this way are almost always very vigorous and productive varieties. It is often stated that they are more tolerant of shade but from my experience, it is not so much shade tolerance as it is that these beans grow so vigorously that they get up on top of the corn where they can get all the light they need. A better question might be to ask if cornfield beans can tolerate root competition better than other varieties. I believe they can but again it seems to be tied to plant vigor.
> DarJones



Should a person plant their beans several weeks after the corn has grown and established some height first?


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

LincTex said:


> Should a person plant their beans several weeks after the corn has grown and established some height first?


It seems that was often done in the past and it worked well. I think it depends on the varieties involved and your soil and climate conditions, also how you layout the plants. For us the thing to watch is the squash, it grows amazing for us and if not careful it can smother the corn and beans a bit. So we usually give it quite a bit of space.


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## kyredneck (Aug 12, 2012)

Around 30 years ago when we lived in town we grew two large gardens with 'two sisters' in one of those gardens - Silver Queen corn w/Blue Lake pole and Scotia Cornfield beans interplanted, I think, at the same time, but not certain. it's as I described earlier, bean vines overwhelmed the corn and a July storm blew it all down. I DID however get a huge crop of string beans from this mess, it was just a lot of work to pick them. Corn didn't pollinate.

At the same time and same neighborhood, an elderly gardening friend of mine had interplanted White Half-runner beans with Golden Bantam sweet corn (early OP) for years with success, and yes, he always delayed bean planting until corn was up and established. It seems he planted/thinned his corn plants in pairs 18" apart with beans interplanted between. Something like this is what I would do, except I'm not sure if corn needs to be spaced as far apart as he did.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

cowboyhermit said:


> I have experimented with quite a few variations and I really like growing in this way. We don't use much corn and while it does fine here it isn't our best crop (season is a bit short) so we have tried using sweet corn instead.
> 
> I am sure I am missing tons of things we have tried, also natives used variations as well that might bear looking into.


As a result of all the GMO business, I have gotten interested in native corns. One particular variety, Painted Mountain, works well in northern US states and may work for you.

http://seedweneed.com/index-1.html



> Thirty one years ago I started growing rare lines of cold hardy northern corn for my family's grain in Montana. Modern corn wouldn't mature in the mountains where I lived, so I had to work with heirloom Native corns. I learned that about 12 lines of Mandan Indian corn had been saved in the national seed bank, but those lines appear somewhat inbred. I began a search for corn still kept alive by Indian families and descendants of homesteaders. After years of evaluation and crossing I eventually created a large and diverse gene pool. I exposed this corn to the severe stress of my Montana home, selecting only the hardiest to breed from. I called this Painted Mountain Corn.
> 
> Photo: Dave showing select ears of Painted Mountain from a field in Montana.
> This corn breeding became the project my soul needed to be completed. I was determined to utilize all the corns still existing from the frontier, before they disappeared, to select the most cold and drought hardy corn in the world, and to make it more productive. My background in agriculture and genetics was a big start. However, I also worked with and learned from all the corn breeders of that era, both in universities and big seed companies. A few years into the project I became aware that I was the only person breeding with this western germplasm for the west.
> ...


I follow the editor in chief for Ogden Publications.


> Ogden Publications Inc. is the leading information resource serving the sustainable living, rural lifestyle, farm memorabilia and classic motorcycle communities. Key brands include Mother Earth News, Mother Earth Living, Utne Reader, Capper's and Grit. Ogden Publications also provides insurance and financial services through its Capper's Insurance Service division.


Read more: http://www.ogdenpubs.com/#ixzz2jhAwtuUn Hank Will, whose grandfather (and maybe great grandfather) had a seed company in Bismarck, North Dakota from the 1800s. They were given native seed corn and beans from the native people they encountered. One of the seeds that they were given was what we now call Great Northern Beans. They promoted this seed for decades and it is now one of the more popular beans in the USA.

Hank has been experimenting and growing all kinds of native corns this past year. He planted the Painted Mountain early May (I think). After he planted it, it endured snow, drought and all kinds of challenges that typical corn would not. He had tassles in June and ears on his corn in July.

I think this variety might be a good experiment for Gypsy Sue and Mosquito Mountain Man to try on their homestead. Given that a lot of the growing for this has happened in Montana, it should work for them.


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## kyredneck (Aug 12, 2012)

Hickory King (OP field/roasting/meal/hominy) corn is an old tried and proven corn in my area to grow beans with. I've never grown it, but have eaten it roasted and pickled growing up, have considered growing it w/beans next time around.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

kyredneck said:


> Hickory King (OP field/roasting/meal/hominy) corn is an old tried and proven corn in my area to grow beans with.


It works well in central Texas also.


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## goshengirl (Dec 18, 2010)

I think besides heirloom corn, it's good to find something with a history in your specific locality. Blue Clarage is an Ohio heirloom that we'll be trying next year, and Bloody Butcher (and Appalachian heirloom) grows exceptionally well for us. Both are good flour/feed corn varieties. Just need to find a good OP sweet corn for this area...


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