# Can the USA be totally Self Sufficient



## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

I was asking myself this question and tried to do some online research. I got may conflicting answers. The question is there something the USA needs -- not wants -- that must be imported. Excluding cost factors --cheaper imports vs domestic product--- is there anything we absolutely can't grow, produce, mine or manufacture in the USA? I know there are many on this forum who are much better at finding facts than I am, so I am asking for your input. 

I believe that most wars are a result of fear or need for some type of resource, I was hoping the USA had become or could become totally self sufficient. Your comments please.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

It all depends upon what people think that they "need." We can feed every citizen in our country and many others as well. We have coal, natural gas and fuel waiting to be used. We have the technology to take care of every one of us. The biggest effect would be financial. We need to be able to sell excess goods to other countries to keep our economy going. It would be felt especially hard in agriculture for one. I'm sure there are other areas as well.


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

mosquitomountainman said:


> It all depends upon what people think that they "need." We can feed every citizen in our country and many others as well. We have coal, natural gas and fuel waiting to be used. We have the technology to take care of every one of us. The biggest effect would be financial. We need to be able to sell excess goods to other countries to keep our economy going. It would be felt especially hard in agriculture for one. I'm sure there are other areas as well.


First, thank you for your response. I think other countries would buy our food even if our import policies were prohibitive to there imports. I also wonder if our agricultural producers would not shift to produce the foods no longer imported? Since we run a trade imbalance with many countries, do we need the exports?


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## AmmoSgt (Apr 13, 2014)

going to be a lot of different spices we just don't have the climate for, takes a certain climate to really make the good stuff when it comes to some spices .. we might be able to grow small amounts around the southern edges or in green houses but they will be weak sad sorry replacements ... coffee and tea will be hard, and again the quality issue, some exotic metals we are not rich in, the platinum group, Titanium, last I checked. Nickel probably... remember nickel was so hard to come by in WW2 we replaced the nickel in Nickels with silver because it was more plentiful.

Funny how minds work.. and at one point if a coin was made of a metal it was assumed the metal was valuable.. now we assume the opposite.. nickel is still pretty valuable.. wasn't that long ago.. as recently mid 2014 that the nickel in a Nickel was worth more than a nickel.


The big hit will be year around fresh fruit and vegetables. You can't get fresh apples in February and March in the northern hemisphere, sweet corn on the cob, watermelon, we would still have them, only seasonally ...


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

> Can the USA be totally Self Sufficient


There are some rare earth elements that are just not found in the USA (at least so far). Some of these are used in the manufacture of cell phones and other electronics. 
We currently have very limited manufacturing capabilities but that could be ramped up fairly quickly I assume.
Most things that we buy from other places is only done because its cheaper to do it that way.


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## terri9630 (Jun 2, 2016)

I think we could if we had to be. Right now to many want what we can't or don't grow here. I'd really miss bananas if my trees die or don't produce.


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## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

Sure we could, but would the general public be willing to accept it? As pointed out there are many things (produce, metals…) that we do not have or cannot produce. Fruits and veggies would be more seasonal than we are used to. Lots more canned or frozen foods, produced in season and stored kind of thing.

It would be like going back in time, to maybe the 1920’s or 30’s, before mass world-wide transport. Yes, we would be able to buy California produce on the east coast and send PA steel to the left coast. But nothing from overseas. The public, in general, would be hard pressed to accept it.

Many here live similar to that now. Being self-sufficient for the most part. Grow and build what they need on their little slice of heaven. I think industry would be hit the hardest, it is really a global thing now. Yes, we could produce most of what we need, but again, would the public be willing to sacrifice at all? There would be screaming if that new iPad or phone or TV that required something we do not have available in the U.S., wasn’t around to buy.

As far as things like coffee and some spices, I think we would be able to produce them. We have a pretty wide variety of climates! The question would be viability, could anyone afford them. But yes, there would be some things that would just not be available. Couldn’t name them right off though.


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## AmmoSgt (Apr 13, 2014)

hiwall said:


> There are some rare earth elements that are just not found in the USA (at least so far). Some of these are used in the manufacture of cell phones and other electronics.
> We currently have very limited manufacturing capabilities but that could be ramped up fairly quickly I assume.
> Most things that we buy from other places is only done because its cheaper to do it that way.


Hiwall also true of rare earth metals .. they are basically very common everywhere .. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_earth_element

They are incredibly polluting to refine .

China basically drove everybody refining rare earths out of business with help from the environmental movement by underselling everybody until there was very little competition left, and then jacked up the prices to make a profit, but not so high as other countries could compete on price and follow the environmental laws at the same time ..


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## AmishHeart (Jun 10, 2016)

The mentality of most Americans is not geared toward self sufficiency, so I think it doesn't really matter if we are capable of having the "stuff" we need. Most people don't have the gumption to make it happen.


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

AmmoSgt, Hiwall, Terri19630, Woody, Thanks for the reply. You all make valid points. My questions is what do we need. I grant you some items would be missed or not have the same quality. I certainly would miss good coffee but I don't have to have it. It is not a need. The quality of various spices may also decline or disappear but we don't need them, simply enjoy them. Would the desire for any of these products be worth fighting a war for? I believe if the country imposed vigorous import taxes, many of these items would still be available but we would learn to do without them or learn to produce them here. I think people only buy what is cheap and once the playing field is leveled, production in all aspects will come back to the USA. 

Economics is the next battlefield. We are losing that war. Simple math --- an American worker cannot compete with a Chinese worker making 17 dollars a day, working 12 hour shifts, six days a week --- no overtime pay. It is absolutely going to make many people angry that their smart phone costs double but then again, maybe they will be happier when those assembly plants move to the USA. When it is more cost effective to build /assemble in the USA, companies will build plants here. Economics wins always.


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## DrPrepper (Apr 17, 2016)

Cocoa..... will it grow in the US? (important since chocolate is one of the four food groups!)

I think if we were to put our collective minds together, we would be able to produce about everything we need to live healthy and happy lives, but it would require a culture shift from people who gain status (well, or think they do!) from imported items.


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

DrDianaAnderson said:


> Cocoa..... will it grow in the US? (important since chocolate is one of the four food groups!)
> 
> I think if we were to put our collective minds together, we would be able to produce about everything we need to live healthy and happy lives, but it would require a culture shift from people who gain status (well, or think they do!) from imported items.


As a diabetic, I have to pass on most chocolate but I agree to have an import exception for chocolate. Could be allowed under social welfare improvement,to keep society sane. :rofl:


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## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

Maybe we do not NEED those 'smart phones', coffee on the other hand.... Perhaps a 'semi-intelligent' phone would be more than most ppl NEED anyway.


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Woody said:


> Maybe we do not NEED those 'smart phones', coffee on the other hand.... Perhaps a 'semi-intelligent' phone would be more than most ppl NEED anyway.


I don't have a smart phone and I would not pay the price or extra data fees for a smart phone. I can purchase a very nice computer / tablet for the price of these things. An added plus-- nobody drives down the road checking their laptop. Lower auto insurance an added bonus --- less smart phones -- less accidents.


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## bbqjoe (Feb 10, 2017)

I don't think anyone can be totally self sufficient. You'll probably always need some things from somebody else.
The US is most likely the same.

As much as we'd all like to be self reliant and sufficient, it probably won't happen, but we sure as hell can dial things back.

As many here remember, it wasn't that long ago that we scoffed at crap made in China or Japan, now just about everything is stamped China.
They are able to make some good things, and a heck of a lot cheaper too.

But I miss when things that were US made, were made with pride, and meant to last.

I may have used this before, but this is my metaphor these days.

I went to the store needing a can opener. I bought the best looking beefiest one on the rack. If I was working, it would have cost at least an hours wage.

I brought it home, went to open a can, and it was a bigger struggle to use than the one I had just thrown away.
I might just as well have used a hammer and screw driver to open the damn can.

Sure, I can just take it back, but it's the principle.

I want America to make everything it uses, and by God, I want it made well.
People and companies should be held fully accountable for what they sell.

A guy gets really tired of going into the dealership wanting a Mercedes, and then finding himself in the parking lot holding the keys to a Yugo with a blown engine.


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## terri9630 (Jun 2, 2016)

I don't see why we can't grow just about everything as long as we have power. I've seen pictures of huge indoor hydroponic set ups in Japan, I think. A controlled environment could be set at any temperature and humidity.


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## AmmoSgt (Apr 13, 2014)

terri9630 said:


> I don't see why we can't grow just about everything as long as we have power. I've seen pictures of huge indoor hydroponic set ups in Japan, I think. A controlled environment could be set at any temperature and humidity.


that can get expensive... and it can be taken to extremes, combine the two and you get extremely expensive.

details here http://www.bbc.com/news/world-radio-and-tv-17352173

pictures here http://www.bbc.com/news/world-radio-and-tv-17359461

even more here http://www.tokyotimes.com/expensive-fruit-parlor-japan-crazy/


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## AmmoSgt (Apr 13, 2014)

One thing we would not have enough of is customers 

in a completely closed loop system entropy would gradually slow the system down.. you have to be able to expand the system by outside inputs to have any growth or profits .. in order to sell exports we would have to have a government policy friendly to imports ... 

doesn't mean we can't have a personal policy that we spend our own money in an informed way that benefits our own nation more or the most or totally. Spending strictly to benefit the economy might be at cross purposes to benefiting ourselves. 

But it wouldn't take much actually we have about an 18 Trillion dollars economy of which 70% is consumer spending ( 12.6 trillion ) and we have trade deficit of about 600 Billion or about 5-6% of our economy

all we need to do is more intelligently more deliberately is spend 1 dollar out of ten to directly benefit US jobs US made Be American Buy American Made in the USA the US economy and we could flip the 600 Billion from a deficit to a bonus ... and if we just did it.. no government policies or laws or taxes or tariffs just individual personal choice when we shop ... it wouldn't mess with any trade treaties that sell our stuff overseas .. which is critical 

Because the whole balance of trade thing is what we export minus what we import.. which is where the deficit comes from.


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

AmmoSgt said:


> One thing we would not have enough of is customers
> 
> in a completely closed loop system entropy would gradually slow the system down.. you have to be able to expand the system by outside inputs to have any growth or profits .. in order to sell exports we would have to have a government policy friendly to imports ...
> 
> ...


AmmoSgt, I applaud the concept of made in America - Buy American - the problem is that American companies cannot compete with foreign labor. When an American worker makes more in one hour than a Chinese worker makes in a 12 hour day, there is no competition. When a family can buy an item for 10 dollars - made in china or 30 dollars made in American, the choice is simple. If the import is priced the same as an American product, then let the best product win. We are losing the economic war and only import taxes will give America an opportunity to recover. China is free to pollute the water and air, all without government regulations that drive up the cost of items. We want clean air and safe water, so we regulate business. Once again unfair competition. A company can sell products from China ad pay less shipping costs in America than an American company can ship in America. Trade treaty gave China special postal rates. Once the trade scales are balanced, I believe America can and will win the economic war. JMHO


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## AmmoSgt (Apr 13, 2014)

Actually based on international figures about how many people are employed nationally in manufacturing V the value of what a nation manufacture's American Workers working 1 hour make as much as a Chinese worker working 16 hours.

That 'products of equal value," or that '$30 V $10' situation is exactly the situation where I am saying just 1 time out of ten , well one dollar out of ten , Americans make the hard choice and buy to help the American Economy instead of what you think would be best for the family budget. 

There is no treaty mandating cheaper shipping and you can't show me one.. it is simple free market principles .. large company with lots of shipping business needs a carrier.. carrier companies bid for the business.. lowest bid wins. 

We are weakening the EPA, reducing environmental regs , gutting the budget for inspectors and enforcement.. so.. that should not be as big of a business handicap/ excuse as it has been. 

IMHO and with all due respect, people who say that the American people cannot make the smart choice to buy American are the actual problem ... and that we need big government to impose border adjustment taxes that totally and exclusively work by making foreign products all across the board more expensive so folks wanting to buy the cheaper choice have to buy the formerly more expensive American Product, not just one dollar out of ten , but every dollar spent is going to do more damage to the family budget than it will help the economy , as massive across the board government interference always does.

It's just the government using tariffs to make foreign goods more expensive and less competitive rather than using regs and taxes to make American made goods more expensive and less competitive .. it doesn't lower the cost of American goods so the citizen gets a cheaper more competitive option , rather it guarantees that American made goods can stay expensive , possible get more expensive and still be cheaper than imported goods that are artificially more expensive because of the tax. It also encourages foreign countries to raise their import taxes further hurting our exports and costing us jobs..

Nobody has ever won a trade war, never in all of history .. the outcome is always the same , both sides lose .. and if you get enough countries involved the end game is always a world wide great depression where whole economies collapse .. we came out ahead back before WW2 because we started with no debt we started that mess on the gold standard and no national debt..so we had to come off the gold standard and we had to borrow to get things moving again , but we started with no debt. This time we start as one of the most heavily indebted nations on the planet. We probably won't be the first to recover this time.. and the nation to recover first will be the worlds super power until the next time the worlds economy collapses. We took over from Britain and the world wide British Empire back before WW2 and even though Britain was on the winning side they recovered by borrowing from us and still ended up losing their Empire.

We don't need a trade war when all it would take is more smartly spending 1 dollar in ten by American shoppers.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

As long as Texas stays in the Union, the U.S. could pull off being self sufficient.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

I make a concerted effort to buy American whenever I can even if it means spending an extra couple dollars. I also try and buy local as much as I can. AmmoSgt is right. All it takes is us, on a widespread scale, to do this as much as possible. I dont think we could be self sufficient with our economic model. The nature of the beast requires an ever expanding market or it collapses. I ask myself the op's question all the time. I think we could be self sufficient but we would have to change a lot. One of the founding priciples of our nation is free trade. Not sure I want to start messing with our founding principles. The best way is to be self sufficient is by the choice of the people to buy American goods not force through government.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

If the USA wanted to be isolated there is no reason that it would have to remain the same size. We could take all of Mexico and increase our land area to include more temperate areas. The complete existing population could be driven south.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

Woody said:


> Sure we could, but would the general public be willing to accept it? As pointed out there are many things (produce, metals&#8230 that we do not have or cannot produce. Fruits and veggies would be more seasonal than we are used to. Lots more canned or frozen foods, produced in season and stored kind of thing.
> 
> It would be like going back in time, to maybe the 1920's or 30's, before mass world-wide transport. Yes, we would be able to buy California produce on the east coast and send PA steel to the left coast. But nothing from overseas. The public, in general, would be hard pressed to accept it.
> 
> ...


California produces less now than it did a few decades ago. More and more former agricultural land is now developed into homes. The lovely climate that produced tropical food, is also desirable for living by many.

Also, water has been diverted more and more for human consumption (except with the recent drought) and for bottling by Nestles. There were orchards which are probably no longer living due to the water situation.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

terri9630 said:


> I don't see why we can't grow just about everything as long as we have power. I've seen pictures of huge indoor hydroponic set ups in Japan, I think. A controlled environment could be set at any temperature and humidity.


I remember reading in the Washington Post, maybe 1989, that an apple in Japan would cost the equivalent of $25 in America. I have no idea what an apple would cost now in Japan. Watermelons, were more like $200.

Personally, I would like to see us be more self-sufficient, but there would be a cost.

I don't think any coffee or chocolate is grown in the United States. I have often wondered what it would take for us to be able to grow it here; if anyone has tried to grow it; and where the best places would be to grow either of them?


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## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

The water there is a good point. That area is not resource rich, in terms of water needed to grow the crops. It all has to be diverted from elsewhere. Becoming self-sufficient and apart from the world economy would be costly and involve major life changes for us all.

Others pointed out that with the world economy it would be impractical to do this. I agree, near to impossible. We need them as they need us, product/resource/monetary wise. I took the question to be COULD we if we had to. It would not happen overnight and would involve some sacrifice for most Americans but could be done if needed.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

bbqjoe said:


> I don't think anyone can be totally self sufficient. You'll probably always need some things from somebody else.
> The US is most likely the same.
> 
> As much as we'd all like to be self reliant and sufficient, it probably won't happen, but we sure as hell can dial things back.
> ...


I don't know where you shopped, but even buying the best can opener at Walmart makes for a low quality can opener. We want to buy things at a great price, but we sacrifice quality in the process. It is a Catch-22, isn't it?

I am a frugal person, but I have learned from my child. She wants to buy the best the first time and have it last the rest of her life. She does not want any cheap crap. No cheap aluminum pans from Walmart for her.

In a long term situation, having quality stuff that will last will be better for any of us, than having something that breaks or falls apart when we really need it. I look for quality used items at thrift stores, garage sales, and on Craigslist.


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## terri9630 (Jun 2, 2016)

I never said it would be cheap, just that it could be done. It's called vertical farming. It's being done in many countries including a few here in the states.

Here's one story. There's are places in Chicago and Scranton already doing it.

http://www.powerhousehydroponics.com/4-commercial-vertical-farms-worth-attention/

Chicago's Farmedhere
A self-declared pioneer of vertical farming in Chicago, Farmedhere is an excellent example of repurposing an old building, as it occupies 90,000 ft.*2 of an abandoned Chicago Warehouse. The establishment has integrated Tilapia into an Aquaponics system that currently produces salad greens, herbs, and dressing for 71 grocery stores and other purveyors in the greater Chicago area. Farmedhere does its part to bolster the local economy by employing over 200 locals.
Visit the Farmedhere website for more information on the fresh and healthy produce they grow.


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## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

Back in the 1970’s I was starting out as a carpenter. Bought a brand spanking new Craftsman circular saw and ½” drill. All the others had Milwaukee or older worm drive saws and such. They cost $200 compared to my $50. Well, a year goes by and the saw craps out, drill had seen better days also. Bought the same thing again. Next year, they need replacing again.

Bit the bullet and spent the $200 for a Milwaukee saw, with the nice metal case, and a $150 Milwaukee drill. I still have both today after many many years of production work. Lesson learned and not forgotten.

Well… Until a few years ago… Moved to NC and needed a Roto-tiller. Cash was a bit tight so decided on a Troy Bilt Bronco model, $600. First day of use… CRAPED OUT. Took it back for a refund NOT a replacement. Bought an $1800 BCS tiller (made in Italy). Sold it when I had to move and the neighbor is happy as a clam at high tide with it.

Lesson needed to be learned a second time.


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## AmmoSgt (Apr 13, 2014)

Going to go off on a tangent here.. and drop a history lesson on y'all

Back before the Revolutionary War Great Britain outlawed the making of steel/ iron nails , shovels wood splitters, and other necessary and useful items .. they did this to insure a monopoly for such products made in England.

making a steel/iron shovel was an illegal and revolutionary act.

Enter Capt. John Ames 1774 two years before we declared Independence

http://www.ames.com/about/about-ames/#

Folks sometimes a shovel is not just a shovel... I hope you go thru the whole time line and start to grasp the significance of some of the simplest everyday things that you can buy cheaper made overseas ...

Ames manufacturing still makes shovels.. I buy Ames products regardless of the price difference .. still made here in America

and for fear of sounding corny ashell I can feel the difference and the history
when I work with one... it's sorta like using a KA-Bar, yeah you guessed it history there too ..http://www.tomarskabars.com/Story_Kabar.html

Now go buy some cheapassimported junk


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

AmmoSgt said:


> Going to go off on a tangent here.. and drop a history lesson on y'all
> 
> Back before the Revolutionary War Great Britain outlawed the making of steel/ iron nails , shovels wood splitters, and other necessary and useful items .. they did this to insure a monopoly for such products made in England.
> 
> ...


Yes, we want to pay little and then wonder why it doesn't last.

"Quality is like buying oats. If you want nice, clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse ... that comes a little cheaper."


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

AmmoSgt, It has been A LOT of years since I read the article regarding the provision granting special postal rates to Chinese companies, so I am not able to post a link to refute this point. If someone with better research skills wishes to spend the time and effort, please fill free. 

I did not state Americans were unable to make wise decisions regarding buying American, I stated when comparing prices, the lower price mostly wins out. As for trade issue, I will ask these question --- How many Televisions are made in America? How many VCR's are made in America? How many cell phones are made in America? We, as Americans have the technology, the ability and the labor force to manufacture all of the above items and at one point we did. Remember Sylvania, they made a large portion of American made Televisions, all gone. The issue was not the quality, it was price and labor is the single biggest factor. 

This post has gotten a bit off target. I certainly appreciate all the replies and freely admit, the cost of items would certainly increase but we would also benefit from an extremely low unemployment rate, increased tax revenue and most importantly become a more self reliant country. Would the difficulties of becoming self reliant be worth the higher cost?

I ask again, is there any item, food, mineral or product we have to import to sustain our county?


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## AmmoSgt (Apr 13, 2014)

tmttactical said:


> AmmoSgt, It has been A LOT of years since I read the article regarding the provision granting special postal rates to Chinese companies, so I am not able to post a link to refute this point. If someone with better research skills wishes to spend the time and effort, please fill free.
> 
> I did not state Americans were unable to make wise decisions regarding buying American, I stated when comparing prices, the lower price mostly wins out. As for trade issue, I will ask these question --- How many Televisions are made in America? How many VCR's are made in America? How many cell phones are made in America? We, as Americans have the technology, the ability and the labor force to manufacture all of the above items and at one point we did. Remember Sylvania, they made a large portion of American made Televisions, all gone. The issue was not the quality, it was price and labor is the single biggest factor.
> 
> ...


yeah, we probably are a bit off track .. but offering no offense I'm going to chug down this spur for a post before we get back to the main line.

If there was a big enough market for American Made TV's , folks would make them, they will make anything with any feature you want if there is a big enough market to make a profit.

We have face book and other social media.. again no government.. just some 400 pound guy sitting on his bed in his mom's basement .. could start a social media thing.. "who wants American made TV's" and at what price point, what features, what sizes, would you buy them within the next 6 months, year, 2 years, ect... that is basically the marketing half of a business plan .. other half is capital.. you would want to see if you could source the various parts and components domestically.. which would be a yes assuming a large enough order ...

If you can create or identify a demand .. you can turn it into a profitable market... again no new government involvement laws regulations required.

If Trump wanted the credit.. he could do it tomorrow morning, all by himself.. 3:00 AM Trump gets up and goes to the bathroom and while taking care of business casually tweets .. how many of my Twitter followers would definitely buy a completely made in the USA TV? Tommorow afternoon he calls in some electronics manufacturers and sits down with them and says I have orders here from 2 million of my Twitter followers for an completely made in the US TV.. I need to give them a delivery date.. what can you guys do to make this happen? and how soon? OH yeah , I want to brag about hw many jobs iit will create.. what can you tell me ..3000, well okay.. any chance you can set up the factory in Appalachia or the Rust Belt? Okay sounds good.. what's next?


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

AmmoSgt said:


> Hiwall also true of rare earth metals .. they are basically very common everywhere .. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_earth_element
> 
> They are incredibly polluting to refine .
> 
> China basically drove everybody refining rare earths out of business with help from the environmental movement by underselling everybody until there was very little competition left, and then jacked up the prices to make a profit, but not so high as other countries could compete on price and follow the environmental laws at the same time ..


You'd never get environmental approval to do that. Here in Wisconsin there was a lot of outside money spent to prevent a mine from reopening here. The left doesn't care if you follow environmental laws. They don't want mines opened. They don't want people cutting down trees or drilling for oil on public land. Period.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

Modern America will never be self-sufficient. We have business and tax laws so screwed up that it takes spending a trillion dollar deficit to maintain 20% unemployment. 

Way too many people get government handouts. Fewer and fewer young people get married. That means they tend to have out-of-wedlock children which means they tend to get some form of government assistance which means they tend to get more in government benefits than they pay in taxes.


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Caribou said:


> Border taxes might actually reduce the cost of American made products.
> 
> The more you make of an item the less per unit so more Americans buying a product reduces the cost.
> 
> ...


Caribou, As usual you have stated my intentions much better than I was able. A fair trading field is what I am hoping for. I remember when Japan dumped a bunch of government subsidized stuff and the American companies took a bath. Japan blocked Harley by passing a law prohibiting any motorcycle from having an engine bigger than 750CC--guess how big the Honda was at that time---right 750cc.

Note: AmmoSGT, thank you for all your thought provoking replies. I may not agree with some of them but I always appreciate the input.

To all the other members who replied, thank you for your contributions too. My memory is to limited to remember everybody by name, so a group Thanks.


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## drfacefixer (Mar 8, 2013)

weedygarden said:


> I remember reading in the Washington Post, maybe 1989, that an apple in Japan would cost the equivalent of $25 in America. I have no idea what an apple would cost now in Japan. Watermelons, were more like $200.
> 
> Personally, I would like to see us be more self-sufficient, but there would be a cost.
> 
> I don't think any coffee or chocolate is grown in the United States. I have often wondered what it would take for us to be able to grow it here; if anyone has tried to grow it; and where the best places would be to grow either of them?


Puerto Rico grows both.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

drfacefixer said:


> Puerto Rico grows both.


Thank you, for reminding me. I did bring some coffee home when I went to Puerto Rico. It was nasty stuff.

I didn't know they grew chocolate, or I would have brought some of that home as well. I brought several bottles of rum home. I gave a couple away, cooked with some, and still have a couple bottles.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

This might be the beginnings of a coffee solution....

http://www.businessinsider.com/farmers-are-growing-coffee-in-california-2015-7


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

CrackbottomLouis said:


> This might be the beginnings of a coffee solution....
> 
> http://www.businessinsider.com/farmers-are-growing-coffee-in-california-2015-7


http://www.businessinsider.com/farmers-are-growing-coffee-in-california-2015-7



> Though coffee is traditionally grown in the equatorial region of the world, farmers have found a way to grow the beans in America. Coffee is now being grown on a five acre plot of land near Santa Barbara, California. Despite the local drought, the farmers have developed a specialized irrigation system to help the beans grow to peak perfection. The beans are in such high demand, they've been sold for $60 per pound.


$60 per pound? Sounds like Santa Barbara!

I have wondered if I could have a coffee plant in my house? I don't know if it would produce any coffee beans. Or, how many plants would it take to have a cup of coffee a day 365 days a year? Maybe a greenhouse full of coffee trees?


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## readytogo (Apr 6, 2013)

AmishHeart has a beautiful point here, we just got lazy folks ,we want more wasted more and care very little about where food comes from and besides we demand more since we are wealthier than our ancestors ;U.S. consumers demand variety, quality, and convenience in the foods they consume so in order to be self-sufficient we need to go back a few generations and to our basics ,we need to respect our land more and stop been so greedy.


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## drfacefixer (Mar 8, 2013)

weedygarden said:


> Thank you, for reminding me. I did bring some coffee home when I went to Puerto Rico. It was nasty stuff.
> 
> I didn't know they grew chocolate, or I would have brought some of that home as well. I brought several bottles of rum home. I gave a couple away, cooked with some, and still have a couple bottles.


It's somewhat new and considered gourmet local. The Cortes bros own and operate a lot of chocolate farming in the Caribbean but hadn't thought of growing it on their birth land. On a trip home, he noticed a truck full of cocoa pods and wondered where they came from. Turns out the university had a few acres of cocoa growing for various test and it gave him the idea to grow locally Puerto Rican chocolate specifically for a local only market. Turns out it's pretty decent.


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## AltNature (Mar 23, 2017)

Excuse me. I'm a newbie... Someone asked about cocoa and my response ended up here.
This is in a greenhouse at the Chicago Botanical Garden. It seems to be doing quite well


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## AltNature (Mar 23, 2017)

Coffee might be harder to get, but we have plenty of plants that make wonderful teas. Prunella tastes a lot like black tea.


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## AmmoSgt (Apr 13, 2014)

The good news about coffee is it stores well... green coffee beans in a burlap sack in the hold of a sailing ship. in the hot and cold of the weather and climes on voyages from the Far East back to Europe that sometimes could take a year or more.. is exactly the coffee that captured Europe .. Or on the back of a Camel across the Silk Road in the rain and sun ...

I figure good for a couple three four years in a pantry with stable temps .. just in the burlap bag

I get mine from http://www.coffeebeancorral.com/ there are others that sell green beans .. shop around .. I found the linked to website's coffee matrix helpful in picking beans to try http://www.coffeebeancorral.com/coffee-bean-matrix.aspx

My back up to my back up is the canned green beans from MRE Depot.. only place I have seen canned long shelf life green coffee beans http://www.mredepot.com/Green-Coffee-Beans-p/fe651.htm they say 20+ years

Best part of stacking green coffee beans is they take up about half as much space as green beans than they do roasted... they about double in size when you roast them.

And for tea lovers Tea Bricks https://www.amazon.com/China-Black-Tea-Brick-pound/dp/B000OCRU98 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_brick in this form Tea can last decades

I have several bricks both green and black I have roasted small pieces of both and ground them up prepared in the traditional manner.... it is way way stronger than what you get baptizing a tea.. bag for a minute or two adding the salt and butter or just a couple pats of salted butter + just a little more salt to taste is a power drink http://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/usda/butter?portionid=29480

and of course the Tsampa, Roasted barley flour moistened with strong butter tea , maybe throw in a bit of cumin or turmeric for flavor and rolled into a ball .. sort of a Tibetan pemmican travel food .. quick bite to eat when you stop to make tea or just have a cup of tea from your thermos already hot and buttery drink about 3/4th of the tea throw in some roasted and ground up barely flour with any added spices to taste . take the dough out of the cup , pour a second cup and eat the dough sip the tea.. total time on the break including taking a break and sipping the tea under ten minutes and you get about 300-400 calories of long lasting energy.. .. keeps the Sherpas going lugging heavy loads over mountains in Tibet.

Might mention the big thing about butter .. a pound of butter is about 3600 calories .. it is about as compact as calories get .. a pound of nut meats is about 2700 calories, a pound of barley flour is about 1600 calories

IMHO 80-120 calories from a spoonful of butter is better for you and gives better energy that lasts longer than a couple spoonsful of sugar in your coffee or tea

Survival/ Trail food and prep from another continent.. always good to know

the trading value of a can of green coffee beans or a chunk of brick tea should not be ignored


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

AmmoSgt said:


> The good news about coffee is it stores well... green coffee beans in a burlap sack in the hold of a sailing ship. in the hot and cold of the weather and climes on voyages from the Far East back to Europe that sometimes could take a year or more.. is exactly the coffee that captured Europe .. Or on the back of a Camel across the Silk Road in the rain and sun ...
> 
> I figure good for a couple three four years in a pantry with stable temps .. just in the burlap bag
> 
> ...


The magic question for me is--- How do you roast them? I like the idea canned green beans, could be a form of liquid gold in the future.


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## AmmoSgt (Apr 13, 2014)

Yeah Civil War style dump some beans in a dry frying pan and keep them stiring.. they will "pop" twice doubling in size turning browner and after the second "Crack" ( the proper term for coffee "popping" ) the light papery skin that splits when the beans double in size will be coming off in surprising quantity .. the roasted beans will start to pick up an oily sheen very faint at first .. right after the second crack and just when the sheen starts is about where I like most my beans .. but it depends on the bean .every type of bean has a slightly different flavor depending on where it was grown and the soil and how much you roast it from light tan up thru shiny black also changes the flavor.. and mixing different beans can make for interesting tastes but I digress

get a cool clean cast iron skillet set it down on a large kitchen towel, large enough to complete wrap up the skillet.. get a rifle with a metal butt plate .. pour the coffee beans in the skillet , put the rifle butt in the skillet wrap up the towel around the rifle butt so the beans won't escape and while leaning rather heavily on the rifle rock the butt back and forth over the beans until the are more of less totally ground up.. or get something along these lines https://www.walmart.com/ip/Anself-P...7155&wl11=online&wl12=914698303&wl13=&veh=sem


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