# Our biggest problem is going to be 'other' people...



## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

While this verges on a rant, it's more about what will probably be our source of problems in any natural disaster-'other' people. While some, or even the majoritiy won't be a problem, there will be some out there who will cause everyone difficulties.


In Washington, we had some uncommon but not rare, low temps following a light snow but it came down fast. For example, we went into a building and came out maybe 30 minutes later and there was a inch and a half on what had been merely slick asphalt...but it mostly stopped. Instantly we had problems, mostly from public transport. We saw where a bus slammed into a pick up and put it into a concrete wall, and we turned just shy of where a bus flipped onto it's side with twelve injuries. People abandoned their vehicles in the middle of the street and on the side of the road on hills. Having lived in other parts of the country, this area has many people who don't know how to drive in the snow! The roads, in many cases, aren't made for snow. The DOT is always reactive, not proactive.

It was a mess!

What is wrong with people?

I can see this happening in a natural disaster, when things really count because I'm seeing it now when there's minor problems. 

People will go out when they shouldn't. They will run lights when scared. They will freeze up from a little slide and simply sit in an intersection and not procede. They will make a turn and just stop. They will try to drive with frosted up windows and snow on their windshields. They will rush trying to make up time. They will slow or stop unnecessarily on a slick hill. 

I've driven in Upstate New York during white outs. Everything is fine if folks keep moving, but they will often panic and simply stop on the road rather than get off the road to stop. It happens here with less going on. Even through I've experience driving in this stuff, there are trips that aren't worthwhile. You'll see people who can't drive going out to do stupid unnecessary things.

In a natural disaster, like many suburban and rural folks, I want to get away from other people.


I'm trying to anticipate some of their behaviors in other situations.

If you've got some other examples of silly or panic behaviors to worry about in a natural disaster, please share them.

I think it was in Portland where a guy set himself on fire. A female officer grabbed a canister from her trunk and sprayed the guy down while others did the same. Later an other officer found an empty RIOT OC DISPENSOR on the ground. In her panic, this supposedly trained woman grabbed a black cylinder with a red label instead of a red cylinder with a white label and emptied it on a self immolated guy! Totally different handle, totally different spray pattern, yet she did it. This can happen even with trained folks.


----------



## pdx210 (Jan 8, 2010)

I know what you mean….I was driving back from Bend Oregon to Portland a few years back I was near Barlow @by Mt Hood. This was the end of September and an early snow storm hit.

1st helped an older 50’-60’s couple get their Honda accord unstuck and turned around…no chains, traction gear, road flairs, food, first aid kit, no winter clothing..nothing ! 

2nd jacked knifed full size ford with trailer into a ditch on a blind corner stopped and put out road flairs I always carry a dozen + not able to help him out much with my truck!

Then I came to a point where all traffic was stopped 30-50 vehicles some pulled to the side of the road and some simply stopped haphazardly right in the middle of the road on a pass in the middle of nowhere? Semi-trucks, passenger cars, even 4x4 suv’s and a bus. I realized all these people where scared and stopped just like cattle parked on an exposed ridge in the snow waiting for someone to do something for them. 
After scouting ahead I found a spot where I could get by the cluster F and continue on it was one of the oddest things I’ve ever seen


----------



## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

You don't need bad weather or a disaster for people to be a problem, The rediculus actions of people have lead to more problems for others than nature. 
the over zelous litigation game , the relativley new "saftey"bussiness pandering to the stupidest denominator. All of the acronumed gov. departments . 

add some weather


----------



## catsraven (Jan 25, 2010)

Iv lived all over the US. Up state and down state NY to Michigan to Ill, Co, Tn, AZ, NM,TX and have been in just about every State in the Union. Some people think that just because you can you should. Yes you can drive 60 or more miles an hour on the highway, BUT there is an inch of ice on that highway. Should you drive 60? Or 40, 30? No you should be at home!

I drove a truck for many years and I would not drive in really bad weather. Its just to dangerous. Yes it was boring sitting around a truck stop but I would rather be bored than dead.

Most people do not know how to drive in rain let alone snow and/or ice. I could tell you stories that would make your skin.. well you know. People are in to much of a hurry to get to where they are going to think about how bad the weather really is. If the weather is that bad stay at home. Unless your job is clearing the roads.


----------



## iouJC (Nov 20, 2010)

Tell it to my bosses....I am a Clinical Social Worker, yet am REQUIRED to come in when there is snow and ice on the road to help deal with dialysis patients. What am I going to do....counsel them about being cold??? The medical staff often does not even come in, yet they want me to come in even if they don't and they live right there in town, while I am 30 miles away! The last time it snowed very much, they treated 4 patients out of 
54; the patients aren't stupid....they stayed home!!


----------



## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

Unfortunately, I'm one of those who have been identified as needing to be in places, and I've been in jobs like that since 18!~

The really sucky thing is in some job categories if you don't show, you get charged leave even though others in other job categories are exempt!


----------



## SaskBound (Feb 13, 2010)

It is this very issue that has me convinced that there will be no last-minute runs to the store when TSHTF. If it's that bad, I won't be the only one to recognize it, and I just cannot imagine trying to deal with panicked drivers, panicked shoppers, panicked bank line-ups, and so forth. In fact, this is the best single argument for always being as ready as you can possibly manage, with food, water, meds, ammo, and cash, plus at least half a tank of gas at all times...


----------



## catsraven (Jan 25, 2010)

Sorry about the rant. Its just one of my biggest pet peeves. Yes people will be the biggest problem. People get crazy even in the best weather. When SHTF they will be worse than even the worst storm could produce. If that makes sense.


----------



## pdx210 (Jan 8, 2010)

catsraven said:


> Some people think that just because you can you should. Yes you can drive 60 or more miles an hour on the highway, BUT there is an inch of ice on that highway. Should you drive 60? Or 40, 30? No you should be at home!


I get your point but isn't the real issue those that lack experience, judgment and don't know the limitations of their equipment and driving skills.


----------



## kyfarmer (Feb 22, 2009)

100% fact 90% of the public could not drive their finger up their ? if their arm was dipped in lard to the elbow.  Every day some idiot is looking right at you and pulls out any way an ya doing 60 mph. No signal at all and those d** fools on their stupid phones. Driving 40 mph. in a 65, we are looking at the zombie class of folks, their own little world. One of those who hits you and gets out , look what you done. :gaah::gaah: Can't help if the public had to take the driving test over they would fail. :nuts: catsraven no rant ya telling the truth.


----------



## shadowrider (Mar 13, 2010)

Yeah nothing like a few flakes falling to get the other flakes out driving.


----------



## dawnwinds58 (Jul 12, 2010)

*No Intelligent Life out there!*

I can back up KyFarmer on that opinion.

If something wrong can be done on the road, some drivers will always choose the worst reaction. I was born in Louisiana and dealt with true flooded roads where water seeped in your doors as you drove. Here I have dealt with people in the snow who endangered everyone else on the road. In Texas it was ice and blasting winds. But it isn't just weather conditions. Let one piece of sudden debris hit the road and watch the idiots panic.

I saw one on a clear sunny day hit a pile of gravel left in the road by city crews right in front of my home. He fish-tailed, hit the ditch, and flipped his little foreign car before he could come to a halt, in the ditch on the opposite side of the road. No rain. No fog. No anything. He came over the hill, hit it, and lost it completely. PUHHLEEEZZZ!!! It was a 3 ft long, 1 foot wide line of GRAVEL hit by a NEW car driven by someone mid-thirties????

The people problem when TSHTF isn't going to be the driving ones though, but the starving ones from the cities. You know the kind. They'll walk back and forth to the water faucet for 2 days seeing if it is back on. They'll keep flipping light switches wondering if the power company is on vacation. It will be great adventure, till the food in the fridge runs out and starts to spoil.

When the first true thirst and hunger they have ever experienced begins, they will panic. The stores and their neighbors will be first to feel that fear and panic, but those supplies will either run out, or spoil. Then they will start hitting the suburban areas, and slowly work out into rural America where the places are protected by "The Good Lord and Smith & Wesson" looking for the food they never took the time to store for the disaster they laughed at other people for believing to be coming. Then?

Then we will see just how far they are willing to go, and how far the rural people will go to defend their own existence. There won't be enough to go around. This country imports rather than produces. It does service rather than manufactor. People, with no "land" skills will have a hard time. They finally will realize that maybe that money donated to PETA to build chicken egg layer "condos" may have been better off spent in buying a good breed of meat chicken to raise. 
The US is not ready!


----------



## GoldenBoys (Oct 8, 2010)

I've lived in snow country all my life and see it every year. It seems like people forget how to drive in bad weather every year when it first comes. I always have several routes to get to where I'm going, depending on conditions. If it's bad enough, I just stay home, no matter what. What gets me is that most people don't carry any sort of emergency cloths and gear for bad weather with them. What do you do if you get stranded and need to stay warm or walk to get to help or home? As soon as the temps think about dropping, my big bag with cold weather gear goes in my vehicle and stays with me until warm weather.


----------



## efbjr (Oct 20, 2008)

*Fun in the snow...*

I got caught on the New Jersey Turnpike in an ice storm returning from Florida 2 weeks before the "Blizzard of '78" smeared the Northeast...140 miles at 35 mph! 

Did 60 miles at 20-25 mph on Rt 495 from New Hampshire heading back to RI. Blowing snow and you couldn't see the road surface. Had to sight up on the treeline to stay on the road! It turned to rain...cleared the road and let me get up to a higher, but safe, speed. 

Several years ago, RI got hit on the weekend by a 2 day blizzard that pretty much shut down the state. I had to be at my security post at midnight on both nights. I went down at 9 pm, cleaned off the FWD Cavalier, warmed it up and proceeded at 15 mph to my job site 14 miles away. No sooner than I got on the highway, with about 3 other cars on the road, than some idiot in a SUV decided to tailgate me in the travel lane on a snow packed, icy road!  Had to roll the window down and wave the doofus :nuts: to PASS ME, while resisting the urge to make a rude gesture  Got to work, early, let the other guard go, as road conditions were deteriorating, called the wife to tell her I made it, and that she would see me when I walked in the door...no way I was going to rush home...slow, steady and safe for me.

The moral of all this rambling...if you have to go out, start early, make sure your vehicle is cleaned off and warmed up, take it slow and steady. Don't do anything stupid like tailgating the other guy. If you want to go faster than he is going, then pass when safe to do so. Maybe he'll stop and pick you up when you skid off the road...you dumba**! :gaah:


----------



## catsraven (Jan 25, 2010)

pdx210 said:


> I get your point but isn't the real issue those that lack experience, judgment and don't know the limitations of their equipment and driving skills.


I wish it was. Unfortunately I have seen more older drivers do stupid things than younger ones. :gaah: Again I could tell you more stories....


----------



## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

What some of us won't admit, I will...I'm decent at driving in bad weather NOW because I had to learn somethings when I was younger...but I wasn's stupid about it then either. I actually practiced on roads with little or no traffic, I drove carefully and within a short time I got pretty good, considering I was driving a terrible rear wheel drive vehicle which caught the wind like a sail!

But I didn't simply freeze up and panic, I got off the road when that vehicle wasn't making much headway and I kept driving forward during whiteouts by seeing what I could and sometimes driving by braille!


----------



## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

dawnwinds58 said:


> I can back up KyFarmer on that opinion.
> 
> If something wrong can be done on the road, some drivers will always choose the worst reaction. I was born in Louisiana and dealt with true flooded roads where water seeped in your doors as you drove. Here I have dealt with people in the snow who endangered everyone else on the road. In Texas it was ice and blasting winds. But it isn't just weather conditions. Let one piece of sudden debris hit the road and watch the idiots panic.
> 
> ...


Oh, you're right---which leaves us, the prepared Christians with a dilemna- do we hand out our stored food to a hungry family?? only to have the word spread to the neighborhood that we're stocked and handing out freebies--to the neighbors who laughed at us for stocking??

It's really bothering me.

If I could move to another house, neighborhood, and not tell a soul what I have, I'd feel better...but not a chance.


----------



## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

> _Oh, you're right---which leaves us, the prepared Christians with a dilemna- do we hand out our stored food to a hungry family?? only to have the word spread to the neighborhood that we're stocked and handing out freebies--to the neighbors who laughed at us for stocking??_


Here's a plan...feed oatmeal or rice once. Hold up the ladle with food in one hand, a 5.56 mm round in the other. "This is for today. Comeback and you'll get the other."



> _It's really bothering me._


It should bother us, I think that those here who claim they aren't bothered are 1. lying to themselves, or 2. foolish not having thought it through, or 3. self centered individuals who deserve their fate. I'm not saying that we can't harden our hearts and others might not soften, but what I'm saying is NORMAL, honest, rational people wonder about it.



> _If I could move to another house, neighborhood, and not tell a soul what I have, I'd feel better...but not a chance. _


Limit who you tell, and only divulge part to those who might be of help to you.


----------



## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

If people around you already know you have food stored up, start letting word casually get around that because of finances or rising grocery prices, you've had to start eating your stored goods. Then don't tell anyone what or how much you actually do have. Make sure to keep it out of sight. Lots of good places to store food.


----------



## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

gypsysue said:


> If people around you already know you have food stored up, start letting word casually get around that because of finances or rising grocery prices, you've had to start eating your stored goods. Then don't tell anyone what or how much you actually do have. Make sure to keep it out of sight. Lots of good places to store food.


Agreed...but I have empty closet space I'm trying to get lots moved into..I have a room, 8 X 8 that was a mud room, turned into a pantry...full with canned goods, supplies, and a refrigerator with a half beef and fish.

The two I told, I can't lie to...they know we couldn't eat that much food.

I just pray about it a lot...

God will send me the answer when I need it.


----------



## sinbad (Oct 27, 2009)

We don't get any snow in my neck of the woods but I know what you mean. People will panic for just any reason. I remember a story of a monkey that escaped and ran among some people and they panicked and it was a big mess. 

In my office, I have a locker with some preps. In case there is some panic, I plan to stay put and will survive for 2-3 days even if the bldg loses power.


----------



## dawnwinds58 (Jul 12, 2010)

I have seen many Christians in my many years, but GOOD Christians are few and far between. I will guarantee you in my little rural community not one person looks at me and says there goes a "good" one. They don't know me, my heart, or the state of God in me. What they do know is I do not dress up to join them at the church building to gossip, eat, and talk about my neighbors. My home isn't landscaped and neatly mowed and it always looks like a cross between a car lot and a wrecking yard. There are always herds of my grandkids, kids, their friends in need of a couch to sleep on, family driven from their homes by this economy, and odd relations around with nowhere to go, none of whom would ever be on the cover of GQ. But let one of this community ditch their car in the ice 5 miles away and see whose door they knock on at 3:00am? Then I don't see or hear from them again till I am needed. *shrugs* God does not judge my actions by the worthiness of those I help, but the intent in my own heart. The intent decides, not the actual outcome.

I leave it to God to tell me who I should help and who to defend from. Good people go through hard times, bad ones might lie and try to steal what you have, the truly bad will try to take you and yours out to have all you have stored. To survive in a world in which modern civilization has fallen, takes a commnunity working together with multiple skills supporting each other, defending each other, sharing equaly across the board to supply what all of them need. It isn't trade based, or has any money, and you won't be a rich person of high standing. All goods are produced by the community and shared equally according to need, not want. There is no room for greed. You will have all that is needed to live well and comfortably, just not be a better or worse off than anyone else. You leave that "superiority" complex behind. There are no "Kings" in a world of "common" problems.


----------



## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

dawnwinds58 said:


> I have seen many Christians in my many years, but GOOD Christians are few and far between. I will guarantee you in my little rural community not one person looks at me and says there goes a "good" one. They don't know me, my heart, or the state of God in me. What they do know is I do not dress up to join them at the church building to gossip, eat, and talk about my neighbors. My home isn't landscaped and neatly mowed and it always looks like a cross between a car lot and a wrecking yard. There are always herds of my grandkids, kids, their friends in need of a couch to sleep on, family driven from their homes by this economy, and odd relations around with nowhere to go, none of whom would ever be on the cover of GQ. But let one of this community ditch their car in the ice 5 miles away and see whose door they knock on at 3:00am? Then I don't see or hear from them again till I am needed. *shrugs* God does not judge my actions by the worthiness of those I help, but the intent in my own heart. The intent decides, not the actual outcome.
> 
> I leave it to God to tell me who I should help and who to defend from. Good people go through hard times, bad ones might lie and try to steal what you have, the truly bad will try to take you and yours out to have all you have stored. To survive in a world in which modern civilization has fallen, takes a commnunity working together with multiple skills supporting each other, defending each other, sharing equaly across the board to supply what all of them need. It isn't trade based, or has any money, and you won't be a rich person of high standing. All goods are produced by the community and shared equally according to need, not want. There is no room for greed. You will have all that is needed to live well and comfortably, just not be a better or worse off than anyone else. You leave that "superiority" complex behind. There are no "Kings" in a world of "common" problems.


You'd be a great neighbor to have.


----------



## tikiman (Mar 1, 2011)

it's not just the morons. When I went through my law enforcment training, one of the first things they teach you is when it comes to a accident, YOU put the emt's and fire where you want them. I've seen 'em park right in the middle of the road, blocking it off, just to get to the victim first. Between the 2, they can close down a road. make this a disaster, and it will plug up the road for hours.


----------



## redcat (Sep 21, 2010)

*Most people are idiots*

I'm a native of the southern end of the People's Republic of Kaliforniastan. Wasn't able to escape for the real world until 2007 (took a job in Iowa). Employer getting borged by a bigger company resulted in me moving to the suburbs of Chicago last year,

A couple of months ago we had a a pretty serious snow storm. It wasn't a surprise, the weather forecasting folks were warning us about several days in advance. Even so, people were taken completely by surprise.

In downtown Chicago, Lakeshore Drive was closed due to deep snow and flooding. Huge bunches of cars got stranded, and couldn't be moved for days. Rescuers on snowmobiles had to go get the drivers out of those cars and carry them to safety. This in spite of all the TV and radio news stations warning people that Lakeshore was going to close, and to stay away from it.

A few years back, when I got so burned out on computers that I had to take a break, I drove a semi. I learned really quick that everybody drives badly. Sure, a lot of people can be nice, safe, considerate drivers, but everyone (including drivers of big trucks) is going to be an idiot at some point in their driving history. The trick to surviving is to automatically assume that every vehicle on the road with you is driven by someone who is just about to do something extremely stupid and dangerous.


----------



## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

dawnwinds58 said:


> To survive in a world in which modern civilization has fallen, takes a commnunity working together with multiple skills supporting each other, defending each other, sharing equaly across the board to supply what all of them need. It isn't trade based, or has any money, and you won't be a rich person of high standing. All goods are produced by the community and shared equally according to need, not want. There is no room for greed. You will have all that is needed to live well and comfortably, just not be a better or worse off than anyone else. You leave that "superiority" complex behind. There are no "Kings" in a world of "common" problems.


Sounds great, but it will never work. Nearly all people need rewards for working hard & consequences for not working in order to choose to work hard. When people who choose to not work hard are given the fruits of the labor of those who did work hard, resentment builds. It ends up rewarding not working, which is the opposite behavior that is needed to sustain the community. If you reward a behavior, you will see more of it.


----------



## ComputerGuy (Dec 10, 2010)

tsrwivey said:


> Sounds great, but it will never work. Nearly all people need rewards for working hard & consequences for not working in order to choose to work hard. When people who choose to not work hard are given the fruits of the labor of those who did work hard, resentment builds. It ends up rewarding not working, which is the opposite behavior that is needed to sustain the community. If you reward a behavior, you will see more of it.


Hence the predicament we are in right now


----------



## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

the only problem I can see around here is the problem people who think that I'm an easy mark are going to have. I'd almost like to try out some of my suprises on real dummies instead of fake ones.


----------



## Clarice (Aug 19, 2010)

I lived most of my life on the Ms gulf coast. Huricanes were a way of life. You knew you would have a good chance of one coming ashore in your area some time during the summer. You just didn't know up front how bad it would be, but you always had at least a week if not more of warnings. Still the general public would wait until the day before to run to the grocery or hardware store. They would buy plywood every year to cover their windows,(always wondered what they did with it after??) They would be stocking up on snack food like it was going out of style instead of sensible food items that didn't need refrigeration or to be cooked when the power was out. After Camille and Katrina the power was off in some areas for as much as 90 days. Flashlights, my goodness what did they do with the ones they bought last year? They never remember to get dog food or diapers, don't know how many times I have had to help out with these items. It has always been a puzzle to me how many can go through life totally unaware. The signs are all around us but very few are preparing for the hard times that are coming.


----------

