# Militia Training



## ReconCraftTheta

So, a friend and I have started a militia, and I need opinions.

We've studied a lot of the stuff US-GI's have done in WWII and Vietnam, but we live in a pretty mountainous area. Should we look at things that European (mainly Swiss and German) mountaineer divisions have done? Thanks.


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## mosquitomountainman

ReconCraftTheta said:


> So, a friend and I have started a militia, ....


Why? Might be important regarding training. Do either of you have any military, paramilitary training/service/experience?

If you're going up against trained and equipped military units you might start with guerrila warfare unless you just want to be cannon fodder.


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## ReconCraftTheta

mosquitomountainman said:


> Why? Might be important regarding training. Do either of you have any military, paramilitary training/service/experience?
> 
> If you're going up against trained and equipped military units you might start with guerrila warfare unless you just want to be cannon fodder.


Thats what we've been working on. Myself no, but my cousin who's currently in the US Army is helping out with what he can.


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## Frugal_Farmers

Here is a little advice for you my friend.

First, I would steer clear of using the term "militia" when talking about developing tactical field skills. You would be an absolute fool if you didn't think the feds were monitoring this forum as well as other forums to find people who may be a threat to national security. The term "militia" is certainly one of those trigger words.

Second, I doubt very seriously if you are looking to form an organized "militia". I would assume that you are actually looking at developing a skill set that would allow you to survive in a potentially hositle environment.

Third, I would focus my attention on actual prepping first. Develop your long-term food and water storage plan and implement this plan. Look at potential bug-out locations and possibly caching supplies near your bugout location.

Hope this helps a little bit.


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## TheAnt

Frugal_Farmers said:


> First, I would steer clear of using the term "militia" when talking about developing tactical field skills. You would be an absolute fool if you didn't think the feds were monitoring this forum as well as other forums to find people who may be a threat to national security. The term "militia" is certainly one of those trigger words.


While this may be true, this forum is so filled with trigger words I doubt that we escape notice if the feds are actively monitoring as you suppose. I wouldnt be terribly surprised if you were correct but not using the term "militia" hardly minimizes your exposure. Big Sis probably doesnt like the term "BOB", "BOL" especially when combined with the words "freedom" or "garden". :ignore:


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## Frugal_Farmers

TheAnt said:


> While this may be true, this forum is so filled with trigger words I doubt that we escape notice if the feds are actively monitoring as you suppose. I wouldnt be terribly surprised if you were correct but not using the term "militia" hardly minimizes your exposure. Big Sis probably doesnt like the term "BOB", "BOL" especially when combined with the words "freedom" or "garden". :ignore:


Thanks for your rebuttal on my post--any advise for this young prepper or do you just debate issues on this forum. After all this is a forum geared towards prepping.


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## Meerkat

mosquitomountainman said:


> Why? Might be important regarding training. Do either of you have any military, paramilitary training/service/experience?
> 
> If you're going up against trained and equipped military units you might start with guerrila warfare unless you just want to be cannon fodder.


 LOL,I agree.This is'nt the 17th century anymore where you 'run through the briars and the brimmels' and fight those doing the same.

This modern military can find you in a 4 foot thick bunker with their technological equipment.

Unless we do somethign peacefully AND QUICK to take back our nation there will be no preparing or hiding where they can't find us.

Preparing for desaster is very wise thing.But sooner or later you will be found.

The thign to do is prepare and get invovled while you do so.

Go to your local commish or town meetings.You will be amazed at what goes on in them.Otherwise your not the solution but are major part of the problem.

Where will your children hide in a dictatorship?


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## TheAnt

Frugal_Farmers said:


> Thanks for your rebuttal on my post--any advise for this young prepper or do you just debate issues on this forum. After all this is a forum geared towards prepping.


Well it wasn't really a rebuttal of your post as a whole. I just disagree that the word "militia" causes any undue attention. I would say to avoid discussing this topic as a whole on a public forum like this that anyone can read. Since so many would get the wrong idea at the first mention of a militia (by any name) my first recommendation would be not to mention it to anyone outside of the "militia" unless you were sure they would receive it well. I dont disagree with his right to form a militia or other group. As for how and what to train on I have no idea.

I guess Im saying to be careful of what you say (regardless of the words used to say it) because it will likely be received wrong and there is no privacy on the internet.


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## Frugal_Farmers

TheAnt said:


> Well it wasn't really a rebuttal of your post as a whole. I just disagree that the word "militia" causes any undue attention. I would say to avoid discussing this topic as a whole on a public forum like this that anyone can read. Since so many would get the wrong idea at the first mention of a militia (by any name) my first recommendation would be not to mention it to anyone outside of the "militia" unless you were sure they would receive it well. I dont disagree with his right to form a militia or other group. As for how and what to train on I have no idea.
> 
> I guess Im saying to be careful of what you say (regardless of the words used to say it) because it will likely be received wrong and there is no privacy on the internet.


Thanks for the clarification my friend


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## worldengineer

Guerrilla warfare is the only way to go now a days. Large countries have to much technology on their side. Thus making a fair fight impossible. Hit 'em hard hit 'em fast. Proven tactics. Been used by many successful. Read up on Sun Tzu's Art of War very informative and holds true today. Learn to hide in plain sight and how to gain the support of the people.

The only question are you a band of brothers or a militia.

Strategy and tactics of guerrilla warfare - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On Guerrilla Warfare  Ch 1

The last link is for military manuals, skills, and other stuff (its all free) lots of good stuff.

500 Free U.S. Military Manauls Survival Ebooks Info Center

PS You should start using anonymizers now. Anything not state or gov funded that can be considered a militia has its members labelled as domestic terrorists. It's a sad fact of this world.


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## RetroMan

*Several suggestions:*

Nobody's talking about forceably overthrowing the US gubbermint here, there's plenty of ways that can be done more or less peaceably, we do it every four years.

First, get thee to an Appleseed shoot. Those guys are _definatly_ *NOT* "militia" and if they do one thing well, it is teach the basics of marksmanship.

However you'll need to understand they teach ONLY the basics of marksmanship and shoot mostly at 75m (82ft) so there is no way in heck you was going to "own the rifleman's quarter mile" as they say. for that, I'd say to go to at least a couple NRA Hi-Power clinics so you'll have a good understanding of ballistics and actual long range shooting.

For personal defense you need to find an IDPA competition and start regular pratice, you'll suck at first but you'll develop an excellent skillset of handguns. Some IDPA matches will feature carbines or "3-Gun" matches (Pistol, Shotgun & Rifle)

If you haven't started prepping then start. Now. its relativly easy to build a three month supply and then just build on that.

Lastly, don't buy into the "you'll get your butts kicked". The US Military got whupped bad in Korea, Vietnam (I served), Beriut, Somalia and the 'Stan's by a bunch of malnourished kids and Khat chewin' *********.

I'd suggest you guys pick up a copy of Rules for Radicals by Saul Alinsky. Its essentially the playbook for left-wingers. Learn to use their tactics against them.

Derision and ridicule are their primary weapons when attempting to squash thoughts they don't agree with.

Like some of the posts in this thread.


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## 101airborne

Frugal_Farmers said:


> Here is a little advice for you my friend.
> 
> First, I would steer clear of using the term "militia" when talking about developing tactical field skills. You would be an absolute fool if you didn't think the feds were monitoring this forum as well as other forums to find people who may be a threat to national security. The term "militia" is certainly one of those trigger words.
> 
> Second, I doubt very seriously if you are looking to form an organized "militia". I would assume that you are actually looking at developing a skill set that would allow you to survive in a potentially hositle environment.
> 
> Third, I would focus my attention on actual prepping first. Develop your long-term food and water storage plan and implement this plan. Look at potential bug-out locations and possibly caching supplies near your bugout location.
> 
> Hope this helps a little bit.


F_F makes some great points here. Not to mention the fact on your avitar you say "teenager" before giving you much serious advice I'd want to know how old you are? Next I'd suggest as Farmer said forget the "militia" idea. 
Hopefully your just looking to form a "MAG" ( Mutual Assistance Group) to help get through whatever may happen.

Up until now I have not posted much about my military history. But maybe doing so will help you understand some things.

I am an 18 year army veteren, Airborne Ranger for 16 years of it. A sniper team member for 14 years. the last 6 as a Delta team member. Served in Desert storm, Grenada, Panama, peace keeping duty in Egypt. Was an observer/ advisor in the Fauklands. Among other assignments.

Now that being said I will not mention it again, I would not want to try and go up against the Military even using geurilla tactics. They simply would have you out gunned and out manned.

If your looking to "survive" a bad situation then I strongly advise that you.

1. learn as much as you can about the area you live in. "bugging out" to the mountians or whatever is not a viable option. You won't be able to carry enough supplies to last very long. So you might have to stay where you are. Or get a pre set BOL set up.

2. Learn and practice useful skills that you'd actually use. Edible and medicinal plants in your area, Building a fire with mutiple methods, finding and preparing safe water sources, First aid and life saving techniques, that sort of thing.

3. Observe OPSEC and watch what you say and who you say it to. In times of plenty your friends and neighbors are great. However when TSHTF these people could and very likely will become a threat especially those who have failed to prepare and run out of supplies and know you have them.

4. KEEP AN OPEN MIND!! Keep learning. You can always get useful advice no one knows everything. Read everything you can get your hands on, even the most assinine sounding books offer at least some useful information even if it shows you what NOT to do.


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## Meerkat

oldsoldier said:


> F_F makes some great points here. Not to mention the fact on your avitar you say "teenager" before giving you much serious advice I'd want to know how old you are? Next I'd suggest as Farmer said forget the "militia" idea.
> Hopefully your just looking to form a "MAG" ( Mutual Assistance Group) to help get through whatever may happen.
> 
> Up until now I have not posted much about my military history. But maybe doing so will help you understand some things.
> 
> I am an 18 year army veteren, Airborne Ranger for 16 years of it. A sniper team member for 14 years. the last 6 as a Delta team member. Served in Desert storm, Grenada, Panama, peace keeping duty in Egypt. Was an observer/ advisor in the Fauklands. Among other assignments.
> 
> Now that being said I will not mention it again, I would not want to try and go up against the Military even using geurilla tactics. They simply would have you out gunned and out manned.
> 
> If your looking to "survive" a bad situation then I strongly advise that you.
> 
> 1. learn as much as you can about the area you live in. "bugging out" to the mountians or whatever is not a viable option. You won't be able to carry enough supplies to last very long. So you might have to stay where you are. Or get a pre set BOL set up.
> 
> 2. Learn and practice useful skills that you'd actually use. Edible and medicinal plants in your area, Building a fire with mutiple methods, finding and preparing safe water sources, First aid and life saving techniques, that sort of thing.
> 
> 3. Observe OPSEC and watch what you say and who you say it to. In times of plenty your friends and neighbors are great. However when TSHTF these people could and very likely will become a threat especially those who have failed to prepare and run out of supplies and know you have them.
> 
> 4. KEEP AN OPEN MIND!! Keep learning. You can always get useful advice no one knows everything. Read everything you can get your hands on, even the most assinine sounding books offer at least some useful information even if it shows you what NOT to do.


 Very good info.Thanks for your servce too,I laways said my heros are military,cops,firemen ,but especially special forces.But some of these same people who I honor can be decieved by their officers and some can't wait to test out all that training.

Look at history,it will tell us a lot about mankind.

Look what the animal did at Ft,Hood.PC got all those marines killed.

Now Obombs wants Nasa to reach out to islam,what has islam got to do with space?

Your right ,imo we can not win against them with violence.The peaceful target for us should be the leaders who control our military.

Look at those who are persecuted and locked up by their military.Nothing said by the others. Its their job to follow orders,its our job to make sure those orders are legal.


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## Magus

ReconCraftTheta said:


> So, a friend and I have started a militia, and I need opinions.
> 
> We've studied a lot of the stuff US-GI's have done in WWII and Vietnam, but we live in a pretty mountainous area. Should we look at things that European (mainly Swiss and German) mountaineer divisions have done? Thanks.


yeech.
1 "militia" is asking for a call from the BATFE/FBI.call it a "citizen's preparedness group".

2 look up your local "rescue squad"[if you have such a thing still!]or find the town Civil Defense office and bum them for maps of your area.they're usually bored out of their minds and are glad to help!if your local rescue squad still exists they can provide training and once you get it are glad to let you come along to look for lost hikers and downed airplanes.

3 Keep your guns low-key,same goes for the camouflage.if people think you're a bunch of terrorist/raciest/wtf evers,they'll treat you like it!look as non military as possible!

4 spend as much time getting a good name for your group as you do training,goodwill of the locals is a must!

5 try to get everyone using the same type of weapons and equipment,saves a lot of hassles!

hope that helps.:wave:


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## ReconCraftTheta

Aight so I'll reform my terminology. Unorganized isnt the term however. We try to keep up on members of said group, as well as have certain people classified in specific groups based upon their passed experiences in BSOA, military, police, ect. However our willingness to protect the US of A shouldn't be under exagerated. For now a lot of it is hikes and camping of course. 

To protect my own name, trust me, just because I'm of a younger age doesn't mean I haven't done my reading and research. 

Here, we have absolutely nothing with CD up here, haha. The whole area where I lived is so deprived culturaly and economically it's not even funny. 

I'm 17.


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## Halfpint

*Starting*

I guess I'm am old timer but we all have to start from some place. I would suggest that anyone start with a *true* self evaluation of assets and skills. Set up a schedule of what you need first and go from there. The basics food, water, all that stuff which is easy to get advise on. Then every week try to learn one new skill ie, put a tire on a rim by hand, plant something, kill and cook a chicken in the wild, make a shirt by hand from some type of material, build a fire in the rain, learn replacement drugs fron nature, make a splint, pick a lock, hot wire a car, move cross country by compass,filter water from mud,,,you get the point. Every week add to your skill set. Keep inventory and practice. The best weapon you will ever have is you brain. "What if" every where you go and do,, watch people and there reactions to things and learn to blend in,,,its easier than fighting it out if your standing alone. Read and learn on here I do. Find some older people, farmers, wood workers, weilders, hobbiest and ask them to teach you a skill,,,they will. You will never be ready for everthing but just dont expect a fast draw to get you thru the hard times....cool head and skills will


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## Magus

ReconCraftTheta said:


> I'm 17.


So was I back when I joined a "unit".
P.M me,I'll tell you all about our screw ups and maybe you won't repeat them.

Hell,I'll even tell you what we did right. LMAO


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## ReconCraftTheta

List of what we've done so far:
-Practiced camping and survival in a wet environment (including rain)
-Stayed out for 2 days in cold weather conditions
-Practiced climbing both trees and rock walls of the natural type 
-Numerous summer camp outs
-Hiked as a group in my yard and at state parks.


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## Magus

done the ten pound,ten day test yet?

You take ten pounds of stuff and make it do you ten days.


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## ReconCraftTheta

Magus said:


> done the ten pound,ten day test yet?
> 
> You take ten pounds of stuff and make it do you ten days.


That actually might be a good activity with school out and all!


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## Halfway

"oldsoldier" and others have valid points.

I would add this; divert your thinking away from operations that would stand up against trained armies. Focus on skills needed to dissuade bands of criminal or thugs. Now that you have that thought process...

use US Army Infantry Battle Drills. Look for ARTEP 7-8 (drill). This is now outdated as far as publications go and the conversion to FM3 series, but these drills are still the core of a team, squad, platoon operational drill.

Read, understand, crawl, walk, run. After action review each iteration until you can execute to standard.

Then...begin to intensify the "conditions" in which you execute. Thicker woods, cold weather, rain, NIGHT, heat, NIGHT, etc.

Here is a list of squad / platoon battle drills. Don't overcomplicate this:

I have deleted the "mounted" tasks. I would focus on React To Contact, Conduct Attack, React to Ambush, and Break Contact.

TASK: Conduct Platoon Attack (7-3-D101)

TASK: Knock Out Bunkers (Platoon) (7-3-D106)

TASK: Enter and Clear a Building (Platoon) (7-3-D108)

TASK: Enter/Clear a Trench (Platoon) (7-3-D110)

TASK: Conduct Initial Breach of a Mined Wire Obstacle (Platoon) (7-3-D112)

TASK: React to Contact (Platoon/Squad) (7-3/4-D103)

TASK: Break Contact (Platoon/Squad) (7-3/4-D104)

TASK: React to Ambush (Platoon/Squad) (7-3/4-D105)

TASK: Conduct Squad Attack (7-4-D102)

TASK: Knock Out a Bunker (Squad) (7-4-D107)

TASK: Enter a Building and Clear a Room (Squad) (7-4-D109)

TASK: Enter/Clear a Trench (Squad) (7-4-D111)


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## 101airborne

Lots of great advice here, let me add something else. If you can get your hands on a kindle e-reader there are literially thousands of books, pamplets, manuals available many of them free or $1. Plus you have the added advantage of having access to all your material in one small portible source. I have one with around 750 assorted "survival/ tactics" related books on mine as well as 250-300 entertainment type books.


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## ReconCraftTheta

oldsoldier said:


> Lots of great advice here, let me add something else. If you can get your hands on a kindle e-reader there are literially thousands of books, pamplets, manuals available many of them free or $1. Plus you have the added advantage of having access to all your material in one small portible source. I have one with around 750 assorted "survival/ tactics" related books on mine as well as 250-300 entertainment type books.


Why not just buy the book itself instead of spending the 115 American for a kindle. Just an idea.

I already have the army's manuals on survival, communications during, prior, and post attack, and the soldier's book of common tasks.


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## 101airborne

ReconCraftTheta said:


> Why not just buy the book itself instead of spending the 115 American for a kindle. Just an idea.
> 
> I already have the army's manuals on survival, communications during, prior, and post attack, and the soldier's book of common tasks.


As I posted before, with the kindle you.....

1. can carry around 4,000 books in the palm of your hand catagorized and convenient.

2. you can often get a book that costs $20.00 for a "hard copy" for as little as $1 on kindle.

3. you can "network" your kindle with friends and share books and cost.

4. you can access your library not only from your kindle, but also from your computer as well as your "smart" phone ( such as a iphone)


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## Magus

Anybody remember American survival guide on microfilm?I'd love to have that!


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## petedewd

ReconCraftTheta said:


> That actually might be a good activity with school out and all!


1. Stay in school.

2. Prep and learn self-reliance.

3. If you want to work your kinks out with "camo and ammo" play airsoft.


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## power

petedewd said:


> 1. Stay in school.
> 
> 2. Prep and learn self-reliance.
> 
> 3. If you want to work your kinks out with "camo and ammo" play airsoft.


Good advice.


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## ReconCraftTheta

who ever said I was leaving school...? It's June 25th, regents are out and done with.


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## 101airborne

ReconCraftTheta said:


> who ever said I was leaving school...? It's June 25th, regents are out and done with.


 I think what pete meant was return when school starts, get as much education as you can because it will lead to being able to practice another form of "survival". I wish I had listened to that advice back in 77 when I quit school and joined the army. Could have waited a few years and went in with a degree and used it now instead of breaking my back doing what I do now.


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## ReconCraftTheta

There are no intentions of leaving school early. I'm trying to get out, get to R.I.T. perhaps, and work on becoming a mechanical drafter. The Army is a maybe.

I've read a lot, seen a lot, ect. But aight. I guess you can never know enough.


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## 101airborne

ReconCraftTheta said:


> There are no intentions of leaving school early. I'm trying to get out, get to R.I.T. perhaps, and work on becoming a mechanical drafter. The Army is a maybe.
> 
> I've read a lot, seen a lot, ect. But aight. I guess you can never know enough.


Good you plan to stay/finish school. Please let me give you a bit of advice here. If your grades are good enough to do so, and you are considering the military, go Navy or Air force. Now while it hurts me to say so being a army vet. The navy and air force offer better training especially in the medical and technical fields. Please avoid combat arms as a primary MOS! There aren't a lot of crossover jobs in the civilian world for CA trained people. However if you get into computers, electronics, medical, engineering and such when you get out you'll have a leg up on a good career. Not to mention the fact that if you join at say 18 you could retire at 38 and have a pension, benefits, and still be young enough to start a second career. Add to the fact the military will pay your way to more training courses as you go along and if your smart enough to take a non combat MOS you have a good chance of taking college classes on post/ base, many are free or very low cost. Heck you may even get your degree and go on to OCS.

As for reading don't stop. The day any of us fail to learn something new is the day after we die.


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## ReconCraftTheta

I've heard that a lot, yeah. Very strong military family here. Mind if I steal that last quote from you? I like that, and obviously it sort of fits to hopefully everyone's position. Thanks for the advice.

As for everyone else: We started practicing with a "role play" scenario around the fields of search and rescue, map reading (just more practice on this one), and first aid.


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## 101airborne

ReconCraftTheta said:


> I've heard that a lot, yeah. Very strong military family here. Mind if I steal that last quote from you? I like that, and obviously it sort of fits to hopefully everyone's position. Thanks for the advice.
> 
> As for everyone else: We started practicing with a "role play" scenario around the fields of search and rescue, map reading (just more practice on this one), and first aid.


Sure your more than welcome to use the quote. I won't even charge you a royalty LOL.


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## WinTheMindWinTheDay

Here's my two cents:

Let's all go ahead, and not base a lot of our assumptions on the American military coming in, and ruining what little of normal life we would have had left. Remember that a lot, if not most of these people are your fellow Americans serving under the United States of America, upholding the Constitution, against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

This is not to say I am all for the situation we currently have on the homefront, or that I "drank the Kool-Aid" like many have in and out of uniform. That being said, I am simply saying that it seems like a lot of the posters in this thread seem to be justifying prepping around a foreseen onslaught by our own sons and daughters serving. I will get off my soapbox in that sentiment, but it's just that some of this was putting a bad taste in my mouth. I am active duty Army. I shall digress.

My biggest advice, dude, is for you to get into the United States Constitution if you haven't yet, and start learning your inalienable rights, importantly in this case, the 2nd Amendment, and know why the word "militia" should even BE used before you start using it. Understand the context behind why we can hold and maintain a [militia], and why everyone in this country should rightfully so. A BIG part, in my opinion, of being a prepper, is having a direct knowledge link to what started this whole country in the first place. To know one's past to be able to deal with whatever comes in the future. If you aren't a fan of history- though judging from your opening statements, it seems you are- you should become one. Evaluate who you are - that is, if you can in this early stage of your life- as an American as well, because that will actually help you on your road to becoming a good prepper. When I was 17, I didn't know who in the hell I was as an American other I was just that: an American.

That being said, take it one step at a time, learn all that you can, allow older people to come into your life with wisdom, no matter how small, and pick it all apart, and choose what is best in your own eyes. Don't let your youth betray you like we all did either, and show them that you are willing to learn. Even if you "already knew this," let them show you because you might learn a better way to do what you already knew, and then some.

I wish you luck, and sorry to anyone if my statements seemed too broad, or arrogant.


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## ReconCraftTheta

Thank you very much for the input. We have been researching the constitution and our rights a lot actually. But that was all before this was in the making or even thought about. We don't really go and teach people about shooting or anything like that at the moment. A lot of what we deal it is the art of survival and self sufficiency in a survival situation, whether that be a natural disaster or an invasion. A lot of us have scout experience and general leisure camping experience (which does come in handy).

And yes, I'm a massive history buff... although I deal more Revolutionary War - Vietnam. At least thats the era that interests me the most.


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## WinTheMindWinTheDay

I don't want to dilute the original reason for this thread, but have you ever done reenacting? I reenact WWII and Vietnam.

Also, I was a venture scout, during which time I reenacted WWII as well. That was what we did as a Venturing Crew: WWII Outdoor Living History(reenacting). I know a few Eagle Scouts. Back in the day, from what I understand, there were bills being passed to ensure Eagle Scouts were armed as a militia in the event of an invasion. Times sure have changed.


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## Meerkat

WinTheMindWinTheDay said:


> Here's my two cents:
> 
> Let's all go ahead, and not base a lot of our assumptions on the American military coming in, and ruining what little of normal life we would have had left. Remember that a lot, if not most of these people are your fellow Americans serving under the United States of America, upholding the Constitution, against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
> 
> This is not to say I am all for the situation we currently have on the homefront, or that I "drank the Kool-Aid" like many have in and out of uniform. That being said, I am simply saying that it seems like a lot of the posters in this thread seem to be justifying prepping around a foreseen onslaught by our own sons and daughters serving. I will get off my soapbox in that sentiment, but it's just that some of this was putting a bad taste in my mouth. I am active duty Army. I shall digress.
> 
> My biggest advice, dude, is for you to get into the United States Constitution if you haven't yet, and start learning your inalienable rights, importantly in this case, the 2nd Amendment, and know why the word "militia" should even BE used before you start using it. Understand the context behind why we can hold and maintain a [militia], and why everyone in this country should rightfully so. A BIG part, in my opinion, of being a prepper, is having a direct knowledge link to what started this whole country in the first place. To know one's past to be able to deal with whatever comes in the future. If you aren't a fan of history- though judging from your opening statements, it seems you are- you should become one. Evaluate who you are - that is, if you can in this early stage of your life- as an American as well, because that will actually help you on your road to becoming a good prepper. When I was 17, I didn't know who in the hell I was as an American other I was just that: an American.
> 
> That being said, take it one step at a time, learn all that you can, allow older people to come into your life with wisdom, no matter how small, and pick it all apart, and choose what is best in your own eyes. Don't let your youth betray you like we all did either, and show them that you are willing to learn. Even if you "already knew this," let them show you because you might learn a better way to do what you already knew, and then some.
> 
> I wish you luck, and sorry to anyone if my statements seemed too broad, or arrogant.


 IMO,its ot the foreign enemies you need to worry about,its the domestic ones.
Serving our country is not just taking orders its being informed and going by the laws of The Constitution.
These wars these traitors keep starting are illegal,if you read the constitution you'll see this.
I think the best way to honor our troops is to tell the truth ,not keep wavign flags and saying thanks,but stopping the killing and maiming of these poor decieved young americans.
Eisenhower warned us to beware the military complex.
We have just turned over to radicals about 20 nations ,rom africa upto libya,none of these were a threat to us.
my opinion of course but ask yuorself some questions.
Why do we not go after NKorea,Saudi Arabia if we want to stop dangerous dictators from stockpiling nukes and WMD? N.Korea has flaughted their WMD in our face for years now.
What have we accomplished in past 55 years of wars?Vietnam still ruled by scum,so are all the others only now worse than what we just blew out.


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## Meerkat

Let me make myself clear,I'm no ant war freak.I just don't like to see our young men hurt for by evil bastards.I'm the mother of a iraqi vet too.Thats when I started really paying attention when they sent my son off.
I cry for yall and do what I can to helpbut not lately,its too much on us now. :flower:


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## ReconCraftTheta

WinTheMindWinTheDay said:


> I don't want to dilute the original reason for this thread, but have you ever done reenacting? I reenact WWII and Vietnam.
> 
> Also, I was a venture scout, during which time I reenacted WWII as well. That was what we did as a Venturing Crew: WWII Outdoor Living History(reenacting). I know a few Eagle Scouts. Back in the day, from what I understand, there were bills being passed to ensure Eagle Scouts were armed as a militia in the event of an invasion. Times sure have changed.


Actually yes, I still do. Wehrmacht/SS (of course non political, no affiliation with Adolf and his goons...) To my knowledge, if you're in the scouts and you sign up (modern day, and I'm sure back then as well) you can be promoted quicker then the average enlisted man.

And Meerkat, I agree. The modern structure of not just our military, but also our congress imo, is a sick, twisted machine. My uncle served as a Marine (Captain John Boldt) in Desert Storm/Iraqi Freedom, and my cousin is currently deployed in Afganistan. It's awful the things that are going on now a days.


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## worldengineer

Everything I have read has been on learning. Although that is mainly what most do, you have to practice what is learned or you will forget.

Practice those tactics you learn.

Another bit of info to learn is Anti-Armor tactics. (A 7mm rifle will not pierce depleted plutonium armor. But tanks don't do very well in a hole.)


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## HozayBuck

*Well you did kick over the ant hill*

* I didn't read all the replies to your post... so will be echoing a lot but....

In 1994 I was invited to the first meeting of a Militia forming group.. about 50 people showed up..

In the first 30 minutes one of the two who had set up the meeting had pissed me off to the point I finely spoke up and warned everybody there that if not this meeting for sure the next there would be a "Narc" sitting in...

long story short things went down hill from there and after 3 meetings it died out... about 3 months later the guy who was so pushy at the first meeting was spotted sitting in the local ATF office by my wife who was a courier for XXXX
and he was all cleaned up and laughing and having a good time...

Point of this story..keep things to yourself! ...right now..shut up!.. do not talk to anybody about this anymore...for now... just learn, train, build your skill set..

In time when you've had time to form good long term friendships you can start building a small group...small meaning 3 maybe 4 others.. anything over that will be to big... if you think I'm wrong read up on an Apache warrior called Victoro.. with never more then 20 men he lead thousands of US army troops a wild goose chase for years... I can't remember if he just retired and went to the Rez to be with his family or what... small!! is good...Large..is a target!

Over 90 % of all people in Jail are there because they couldn't keep their mouth shut!...fact ! ..

Plus in this day and age your actions could be misread as another couple of kids thinking "Columbine"

The nail that sticks up is the one that gets hammered...*


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## WinTheMindWinTheDay

HozayBuck said:


> * I didn't read all the replies to your post... so will be echoing a lot but....
> 
> In 1994 I was invited to the first meeting of a Militia forming group.. about 50 people showed up..
> 
> In the first 30 minutes one of the two who had set up the meeting had pissed me off to the point I finely spoke up and warned everybody there that if not this meeting for sure the next there would be a "Narc" sitting in...
> 
> long story short things went down hill from there and after 3 meetings it died out... about 3 months later the guy who was so pushy at the first meeting was spotted sitting in the local ATF office by my wife who was a courier for XXXX
> and he was all cleaned up and laughing and having a good time...
> 
> Point of this story..keep things to yourself! ...right now..shut up!.. do not talk to anybody about this anymore...for now... just learn, train, build your skill set..
> 
> In time when you've had time to form good long term friendships you can start building a small group...small meaning 3 maybe 4 others.. anything over that will be to big... if you think I'm wrong read up on an Apache warrior called Victoro.. with never more then 20 men he lead thousands of US army troops a wild goose chase for years... I can't remember if he just retired and went to the Rez to be with his family or what... small!! is good...Large..is a target!
> 
> Over 90 % of all people in Jail are there because they couldn't keep their mouth shut!...fact ! ..
> 
> Plus in this day and age your actions could be misread as another couple of kids thinking "Columbine"
> 
> The nail that sticks up is the one that gets hammered...*


I could not have said it any better.


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## sailaway

I'm now doing my militia training with the 7th Ohio Volunteer Infantry, we are using 1861 Springfields. Next weekend is bayonet drill, I will learn how to "give'm the cold steel" My captain says he taught us how to fight at Bull Run this summer and in 2013 we will learn how to die at Gettysburg.


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## worldengineer

I agree with every thing you said except keeping quiet. Its because of this action that our gov is out of control. Not to say you should voice any sort of anti-gov views or military intents, I am just saying to let people know that what Washington does daily is destroying our way of life.

Like Hozay, said people may think you are planning another tragedy or attack. Remind them that everyone of the founding fathers committed treason, and planned a war with their government. All because of heavy taxation, lack of representation, and opposing view points.


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## ReconCraftTheta

I'd have to agree with worldengineer, sorry Hozay. A lot of legitimate facts, but keeping quite wouldn't help much. It's not like I'm running around shouting "death to America". Lets keep that in mind here.


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## Turtle

ReconCraftTheta said:


> I'd have to agree with worldengineer, sorry Hozay. A lot of legitimate facts, but keeping quite wouldn't help much. It's not like I'm running around shouting "death to America". Lets keep that in mind here.


"Perception is reality" - let's keep THAT in mind, shall we? In case you've never heard that term, what it means is this: Your intentions are immaterial. Conclusions will be reached based upon your actions, words, and deeds. So, be very careful in what you state and do.

Regardless of whether or not you agree with laws, you have chosen to remain a member of this society, and as such, have agreed through silent acquiescence to remain bound by those laws. Those laws also exist to protect you, so learn them, learn to operate within them, and learn to use them.


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## ReconCraftTheta

Turtle said:


> "Perception is reality" - let's keep THAT in mind, shall we? In case you've never heard that term, what it means is this: Your intentions are immaterial. Conclusions will be reached based upon your actions, words, and deeds. So, be very careful in what you state and do.
> 
> Regardless of whether or not you agree with laws, you have chosen to remain a member of this society, and as such, have agreed through silent acquiescence to remain bound by those laws. Those laws also exist to protect you, so learn them, learn to operate within them, and learn to use them.


With that said, nothing inside or outside of the forum has been illegal. When we meet, we're sure to keep it on out property, clean up after outselves, keep noise to a minimum at night, ect. Besides, we're more of a survival school now. We just do it military style, one could say. Command structure for organization, ect.


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## Turtle

ReconCraftTheta said:


> With that said, nothing inside or outside of the forum has been illegal. When we meet, we're sure to keep it on out property, clean up after outselves, keep noise to a minimum at night, ect. Besides, we're more of a survival school now. We just do it military style, one could say. Command structure for organization, ect.


And that is all well and good. You deserve credit for approaching this with a mature restraint.

I am just trying to encourage you to use the system instead of becoming used BY the system due to ignorance of the laws. Do your research, use credible sources, and educate yourself. Your brain is your best weapon.


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## Meerkat

ReconCraftTheta said:


> Actually yes, I still do. Wehrmacht/SS (of course non political, no affiliation with Adolf and his goons...) To my knowledge, if you're in the scouts and you sign up (modern day, and I'm sure back then as well) you can be promoted quicker then the average enlisted man.
> 
> And Meerkat, I agree. The modern structure of not just our military, but also our congress imo, is a sick, twisted machine. My uncle served as a Marine (Captain John Boldt) in Desert Storm/Iraqi Freedom, and my cousin is currently deployed in Afganistan. It's awful the things that are going on now a days.


 Bless his heart I hope he comes home safe and sound ,very soon.
I cry when I see young people go to war,older ones too of course but I've seen what happens from the Nam war.
Everyone should visit a VA and they would be more watchful.


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## ReconCraftTheta

I will tell him that, Meerkat. He'd be happy to hear it.

And Turtle, it'd take a very stupid person to rush into this with a head strong attitude. Which I try not to be. Thank you for your words.


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## PamsPride

I agree with the civil war or other type of reenactment groups. 
Learning how to dehydrate so you can make and carry more food with you on your survival trips. 
Calling it a "MAG" as suggested is an excellent idea.
I know our local volunteer fire department teach free first aid training. That would be something to look into to add to your skill set. 
My boys are in the Royal Rangers at our church and they do a LOT of what you mentioned that you are already doing. 
Lots of good suggestions already posted!


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## ReconCraftTheta

PamsPride said:


> I agree with the civil war or other type of reenactment groups.
> Learning how to dehydrate so you can make and carry more food with you on your survival trips.
> Calling it a "MAG" as suggested is an excellent idea.
> I know our local volunteer fire department teach free first aid training. That would be something to look into to add to your skill set.
> My boys are in the Royal Rangers at our church and they do a LOT of what you mentioned that you are already doing.
> Lots of good suggestions already posted!


Oh we've already had positive run ins and reinforcement from the local police! 
A park we train at occaisionally is frequently visited by ATVs. At said park, it's illegal. We gave them names and addresses of people who do it often. We were told "it's a great hobby you guys have here". I thought it was pretty awesome 

I've read a few things on dehydrating, as well as canning (cept that adds a lot of weight). We currently go under the title of Broome County Civil Prepardness Group Detachment.


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## BillM

*The Militia*

Back in the 1800"s each county had a county Militia.

Once a year the head of the county militia , on Militia day, would muster the militia on the court house lawn.

Every male between the ages of 16 and 62 was required to report with their weapon.

The county Doctor would inspect the militia and each member was checked to make sure they had at least two teeth that met. this allowed them to tear open the paper cartrige containing the ball & buck load common to a smooth bore musket while holding the gun barrel with the weak hand.

The second test was called a stability test. Each member was given a two handed push on the shoulders by the doctor. If they fell, they were termed to be a "Push over" and could no longer "cut the muster".

I'm kind of a history buff !


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## worldengineer

The reason it is not like that anymore is because they want to do their best to prevent what the forefathers wanted. Freedom and the government to be reconstructed every so often.


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## ReconCraftTheta

worldengineer said:


> The reason it is not like that anymore is because they want to do their best to prevent what the forefathers wanted. Freedom and the government to be reconstructed every so often.


Thanks for the lesson Bill! I didn't know that, hahaha. Very interesting. I did know that each county was to have a militia.

And to not sound like a terrorist freak:
"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?" -Thomas Jefferson


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## worldengineer

Thomas Jefferson is the one that believed in a little anarchy every 20 or so years. To keep the leaders on their toes and to provide the care and attention the citizens and their country deserve.

Remember if you say anything that is not status qou, or carries any slight reference about resistance, or reform. Then the FBI wants you in Gitmo.


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## Halfway

worldengineer said:


> Thomas Jefferson is the one that believed in a little anarchy every 20 or so years. To keep the leaders on their toes and to provide the care and attention the citizens and their country deserve.
> 
> Remember if you say anything that is not status qou, or carries any slight reference about resistance, or reform. Then the FBI wants you in Gitmo.


Well spoken.

And....TJ would be pondering heavily over an ale or two right now.:beercheer:


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## ReconCraftTheta

Yes yes indeed.


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## akmike

Halfway said:


> Well spoken.
> 
> And....TJ would be pondering heavily over an ale or two right now.:beercheer:


I'm thinking Mr. Jefferson is spinning in his grave right now!


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## oldvet

ReconCraftTheta: 

I have read most of the posts in this thread and I have seen some very, very good info handed out.

One thing in particular is if you have a "bunker mentality" please loose it. As was stated by someone else here, always have a rabbit hole and several cashes of at least food, water, weapons, and ammo to use if you have to bug out.

If you attempt to bunker up against superior odds or firepower, you will loose. Be prepared to get and stay mobile not static.

I and several other families have set up a well supplied retreat with a good water source, however we will not defend it to the last person. That is not a heroic jesture, just a darn stupid one.

I put twenty years in the military and a lot of my experience is from the boonies of Viet Nam, and I will tell you that "charlie" had his stuff together and most of the time was damn hard to locate and pin down.

If you have to become "Charlie", then fade, regroup, and use your cashes. Then you can live to fight another day and you will be in a whole lot better position to take back what "the bad guys" took from you.

Read, listen, train, stay in shape, and learn as much as you can from anyone that is willing to share their experience and training with you. 

There should be no such thing as learning just enough to get by. As was said by someone else learn as many varied skills as you can and prepare your retreat with some manually operated tools in case the more than likely event happens and you loose power.

oldvet


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## ReconCraftTheta

I never planned to have that said mentallity, but either way, thank you for the advice. I'm waiting till I'm done moving to set up caches (stupid idea, I know).


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## oldvet

ReconCraftTheta said:


> I never planned to have that said mentallity, but either way, thank you for the advice. I'm waiting till I'm done moving to set up caches (stupid idea, I know).


I wasn't getting down on you in any way shape or form, and I am sorry if I offended you because that was not my intent. I could have worded it better and probably should have, again if I offended you I do apologize.

Waiting until you complete a move isn't a stupid idea at all to my way of thinking. You have to set priorities, and if your main priority at this time is getting moved to another location then I say TCB and work on everything else as you have the time and funds to do so.

oldvet


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## ReconCraftTheta

Ah, sorry, didn't mean to sound that way either. And thanks for the advice, no sarcasm. Move's almost complete, just made a few purchases towards my food stockpile as well.


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## BillS

ReconCraftTheta said:


> I never planned to have that said mentallity, but either way, thank you for the advice. I'm waiting till I'm done moving to set up caches (stupid idea, I know).


I think the most likely use for whatever type of training you can get would be to fight groups of criminals after a collapse. You might want to get some night vision goggles too. The time to attack of group of criminals in the field would be at night.


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## ReconCraftTheta

Yeah, thats more what we're dealing in right now.


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## Meerkat

Nice thread.Lot of info and history to learn from. I laways liked history.


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## Meerkat

Survivalcauter said:


> Organizing Survivor Nonviolent Resistance (V1)
> By Mike Davis, PhD Psychology
> 
> There is a common pattern throughout the history of nonviolent resistance. After a movement for social change acquires any sort of influence, it typically meets with repression.
> While badly organized movements collapse as soon as resistance begins, the inculcation of solidarity and discipline (akin in some ways to the training of normal soldiers) can hold a movement together long enough to win attention and score some victories. Moreover, the very fact that the protesters remain committed to nonviolence (only a pragmatic phase)even as the government turns to
> repression to combat them tends to win over previously neutral parties, arouse dissent among the repressing group, and inspire and involve other members of persecuted groups. It is "political jiu-jitsu" -- jiu-jitsu being a style of martial art that uses an opponent's aggressiveness and ferocity against him. It is precisely because of the possibility of failure of disorganized, fragmented resistance, that I am interested in studying the mechanics of nonviolent struggle. But, insofar as it succeeds, it usually does so by converting opponents, making repression too costly to continue, and threatening the very ability of the government to maintain power.
> Comparative evaluations of nonviolent and violent means must take into consideration that political violence is often defeated also. By conventional standards, does not one side lose in each international war, civil war and violent revolution? Hell yes!
> Such defeats have usually been explained as resulting from certain weaknesses or inadequacies, such as lack of fighting spirit, insufficient or poor weapons, mistakes in strategy and tactics, or numerical inferiority. Comparable weaknesses may also lead to defeat in nonviolent action. The common practice of explaining defeats of political violence in terms of such specific shortcomings while blaming defeats of nonviolent action on the presumption of its universal impotence is both irrational and uninformed"
> With this in mind, premature counter- violence is usually ineffective. The ability of the government to use violence greatly exceeds that of the rebels. Indeed, violent rebellion often strengthens oppressive regimes which can plausibly claim that rebel violence necessitates repression. Government's comparative advantage lies in violent action. The comparative advantage of the people, in contrast, lies in their ability to deny their voluntary cooperation without which it is nearly impossible for government to persist. Consider the deadliness to a government of tax strikes, boycotts, general strikes, and widespread refusal to obey the law.
> While these tactics are nonviolent, their universal and unyielding use should terrify any government.
> Nonviolence has other advantages as well. Because it seems less dangerous and radical than violence, it more easily, as mentioned above, wins broad public support. The costs of participation are lower, so more people are likely to participate. Traditional noncombatants like children, women, and the old can effectively participate in nonviolent struggle. It is more likely
> to convert opponents and produce internal disagreement within the ruling class. It generally leads to far fewer casualties and material losses than violence. And since it is more decentralized than violent action, it is less likely to give rise to an even more oppressive state if it succeeds. At the same time a growing corps of hard front fighters will inevitably emerge with the heart to do anything to win!
> Civilian Based Defense
> If nonviolent action can effectively force one's government to change its policies or abandon power, then plausibly similar tactics might succeed against a foreign invader. And, since most nonviolence has historically been sporadic and unorganized, it is possible to increase its effectiveness through training and strategic and tactical planning. These two possibilities have sparked interest in "civilian-based defense" -- the self-conscious use of nonviolent means for the goal of national defense. Civilian-based defense is defined as "a projected refinement of the general technique of nonviolent action, or civilian struggle, as it has occurred widely in improvised forms in the past. This policy is an attempt *** deliberately to adapt and develop that technique to meet defense needs, and thereby potentially to provide...deterrence to those particular forms of attack"
> While this may appear intuitively impractical at first, on closer examination the argument may have strong appeal. From the outset, one should note that some of the most famous cases of nonviolent resistance were carried out against foreign powers, including: colonial North America and India against the British; Germany against France and Belgium in the Ruhrkampf; and Hungary
> against the rule of the Austrian Empire. Quoting Kenneth Boulding, "What exists,
> is possible." More fundamentally, nonviolent resistance never had any of the advantages that military resistance does. Usually the military has years to train, strategize, prepare arsenals, test weapons, stockpile necessary resources, and study the past for lessons. But, nonviolent struggles have almost always been carried out without the benefit of personnel training or tactical and strategic planning. There is much more, but this is enough to get you thinking, if you are really reconsidering your refusal to fight communist afro-supremacy


 Non violence is the only wat to win,but the numbers should be high to pull it off.So far most Aamericans feel everythings coming up roses soon as the little 'bump in the economy'is over.
Times running out ,if it has'nt already.


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## BillS

Nonviolence only wins when the opponent is decent. Nonviolence against Muslims or Marxists will get you killed.


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## worldengineer

BillS said:


> Nonviolence only wins when the opponent is decent. Nonviolence against Muslims or Marxists will get you killed.


Very true. Non violence can be used when a large enough group has the ability to be changed, when they cannot have a change in mind set their is no possible way to win non violently.


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## oldvet

BillS said:


> Nonviolence only wins when the opponent is decent. Nonviolence against Muslims or Marxists will get you killed.


Yep!, Yep! and Yep!

Never forget that "big stick" when you are walking and talking softly. :club:

Trust me, getting killed when you are trying to be Mr. nice guy really sucks.


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## Onebigelf

Looking at some of the replies you've gotten... Allow me to suggest the "Tactical Airsoft Team". A popular and relatively inoffensive sport, airsoft teams are springing up all over and are great fun and require the use of sound tactics to do well. Unlike the reaction to the _other_ term you were using, this game doesn't set off the same radars. Nobody thinks twice about a bunch of high school to college age young people playing a game.

John


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## worldengineer

to add to you oldvet,

A kind word and a gun gets you a lot farther than just a kind word.


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## *Andi

Add to that some Common Sense and we have it made ...;


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## bassmasterskip

They said that to the Colonist to when faced against the largest British Military force in the world. If in a stateside conflict the military shouuld not be involved if so they are crimminals and will be dealt with accordingly. Also remember everything they used was designed by plain citizens that they will try to face


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## oldvet

Onebigelf said:


> Looking at some of the replies you've gotten... Allow me to suggest the "Tactical Airsoft Team". A popular and relatively inoffensive sport, airsoft teams are springing up all over and are great fun and require the use of sound tactics to do well. Unlike the reaction to the _other_ term you were using, this game doesn't set off the same radars. Nobody thinks twice about a bunch of high school to college age young people playing a game.
> 
> John


Excellent advice. Try to find a team that is led by someone with military training and experience and uses military style tactics.

If you can't find such a team or person that is willing to teach you the basics such as patrol, static defense, ambush, CQB, movement (such as bounding overwatch), land navigation, and a host of other tactics, then I would suggest that you get yourself a copy of the "Ranger Handbook" and you will at least be able to learn some of the basics.

Actually the Ranger Handbook is a very good thing to have and study wheather you have someone to teach you or not.

Just a suggestion from an "old soldier" that hopes you never have to swing that "Big Stick".


----------



## ReconCraftTheta

Actually we started something like that about a year ago. It's a lot of fun.


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## oldvet

ReconCraftTheta said:


> Actually we started something like that about a year ago. It's a lot of fun.


Yep, it actually can be fun even for an old fart like me ( I love to suit up and ambush newbies). Yep it is fun and given the right instructor you can learn some very valuable tactics.

Enjoy yourself and learn while doing it.

DM


----------



## yerbyray

*What is the true threat to Preppers?*

I am not worried about our government up and turning against the citizens. I am not worried about invasion of another country. Those two threats are so low on the radar that I wouldn't worry about them.

What do I see as a threat? Those who have not prepared wanting what you have when the SHTF. Your neighbors, co-workers, and shooting buddies will be hungry, wet, and cold. They will want what you have stored and put away for themselves.

No matter what the scenario is that brings on the crisis the above paragraph will be your greatest threat. You do need to think heavily about asset protection and personal defense. You will be going up against guys with arms just as good as yours. The difference is having tactics and working as a team.

Look at the incidents of looting during civil unrest and natural disasters. Drag out a natural disaster three weeks and all of the immediate food is consumed in the local grocery stores and see what happens.

There will be no one friendly at that point.


----------



## thelongdrink

ReconCraftTheta said:


> So, a friend and I have started a militia, and I need opinions.
> 
> We've studied a lot of the stuff US-GI's have done in WWII and Vietnam, but we live in a pretty mountainous area. Should we look at things that European (mainly Swiss and German) mountaineer divisions have done? Thanks.


I would think that if you are in mountain region that you should set yourselves for mountain fighting. a good thing to look into is how and why the swiss have not been involved in a war in over 500 years. look to set up your camps and bases in an area where you may hold off an attacking force from a single ridge. Just keep in mind one way in and one way out might not be the ultimate spot. always remember to have a back door.


----------



## yerbyray

thelongdrink said:


> I would think that if you are in mountain region that you should set yourselves for mountain fighting. a good thing to look into is how and why the swiss have not been involved in a war in over 500 years. look to set up your camps and bases in an area where you may hold off an attacking force from a single ridge. Just keep in mind one way in and one way out might not be the ultimate spot. always remember to have a back door.


I don't know who is going to chase or hunt you down but but if they really want you I think they will get you if you hole up.

Let's look at our old friend Osama Bin Laden. Lived a carefree life walking around the mountains sniffing poppies and hiding. He holes up in a defensive compound and he is killed.

History has thousands of other examples of folks loosing sieges. There are a very few "hold outs" who won and technology surely will eliminate any future successes.

Travel light, don't be seen, and stay off the radar scope of those who might be interested in you would be my advice.

Anyone who thinks they are going to defend in place need a quick history lesson like MOVE 1985 in Philadelphia, Branch Divdians in Waco, and Los Angeles PD burnig out the SLA in 1974.


----------



## oldvet

yerbyray said:


> I don't know who is going to chase or hunt you down but but if they really want you I think they will get you if you hole up.
> 
> Let's look at our old friend Osama Bin Laden. Lived a carefree life walking around the mountains sniffing poppies and hiding. He holes up in a defensive compound and he is killed.
> 
> History has thousands of other examples of folks loosing sieges. There are a very few "hold outs" who won and technology surely will eliminate any future successes.
> 
> Travel light, don't be seen, and stay off the radar scope of those who might be interested in you would be my advice.
> 
> Anyone who thinks they are going to defend in place need a quick history lesson like MOVE 1985 in Philadelphia, Branch Divdians in Waco, and Los Angeles PD burnig out the SLA in 1974.


Yep, that is basically what I have said in several posts. To get the "bunker mentality" is a loosing proposition.

If you have to use a defensive position, use it with the thought that you are fighting a delaying action until you and yours can bug out. Allways have a "rabbit hole" and cashes you can go to after you bug out. You can rearm, resupply, and be in a position to retake what is yours.

Train the way you intend to fight.
If you are in Mountain terrain then make the best use of it that you possibly can. Make sure that you are in good enough shape to pull the long hikes and climbs and get used to the altitude.

There is no way that you can overcome a well trained superior force with superior fire power, so you must rely on hit and run tactics.

Train in stealthy movement, setting up nasty surprises, small unit tactics, noise discipline, hand signals, camoflage (consealment), and a whole host of other tactics and areas.

If you are to be effective you must be prepared and the only way to do that is to listen, learn and apply.

You must study your AO until you know it like the back of your hand and know your way around in day light or dark, and ensure that everyone else in your group does the same. Set your rally points and ensure that everyone knows them.

I can go on and on, but I would imagine that you get the point. 
TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN, and when you get tired TRAIN SOME MORE. 
I didn't get to be an "oldvet" by doing stupid stuff and not listening and learning from those that have the training and experience. Just saying.


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## grandpadave

Listen to old Vet.... He's right

the moment you let yourself be drawn into a firefight you've already lost....
I retired from the Marine Mountain Warfare school up in Bridgeport Calif...
even with all my training experience and skills I would not want to go there...


All I can say is even a screwed up team like the BATF had no problems taking out David Koresh down there in Waco TX... they just drove a tank through his house... End of problem


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## mrmike487

*I am looking to join Militia*

I am looking to join a militia. Anyone recruiting?


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## bassmasterskip

*New Militia*

I agree with Mosquito as Guerilla tactic will be the most used if you need some info on Gurillaa tactics and ops let me know


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## Neec0

mrmike487 said:


> I am looking to join a militia. Anyone recruiting?


I certainly hope you are not serious.

#1 - Did you happen to read _any_ of this thread?
#2 - I don't think this is the apporopriate forum to be soliciting the "recruitment" of _any_ group, other than a maybe a meet and greet of like minded individuals.


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## Davarm

You guys are nuts!


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## TheAnt

Davarm said:


> You guys are nuts!


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## Davarm

TheAnt said:


>


That nut didn't paint a bulls-eye on his back.


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## TheAnt

Davarm said:


> That nut didn't paint a bulls-eye on his back.


Neither will this nut!


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## Davarm

I will qualify my statement about being nuts.

I think that it was touched on earlier in the post, the federal government is scared to death of Militia Groups, as it should be - helps keep it in line and you can be certian that their are entities that monitor sites like this for this reason. Once you are on a watch list, you are there forever, that is the bulls-eye I am referring to. If and when TSHF, and martial law is declared, who do you think is going to be rounded up first, those on the watch lists.

Starting Militias, training in military tactics and broadcasting it in open forums like this will put you on the top of those lists. Things like this are best done low key and under the radar, not out in the open for all to see.


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## TheAnt

Davarm said:


> I will qualify my statement about being nuts.
> 
> I think that it was touched on earlier in the post, the federal government is scared to death of Militia Groups, as it should be - helps keep it in line and you can be certian that their are entities that monitor sites like this for this reason. Once you are on a watch list, you are there forever, that is the bulls-eye I am referring to. If and when TSHF, and martial law is declared, who do you think is going to be rounded up first, those on the watch lists.
> 
> Starting Militias, training in military tactics and broadcasting it in open forums like this will put you on the top of those lists. Things like this are best done low key and under the radar, not out in the open for all to see.


I totally agree.. hency my funny little fuzzy picture


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## oldvet

Davarm said:


> I will qualify my statement about being nuts.
> 
> I think that it was touched on earlier in the post, the federal government is scared to death of Militia Groups, as it should be - helps keep it in line and you can be certian that their are entities that monitor sites like this for this reason. Once you are on a watch list, you are there forever, that is the bulls-eye I am referring to. If and when TSHF, and martial law is declared, who do you think is going to be rounded up first, those on the watch lists.
> 
> Starting Militias, training in military tactics and broadcasting it in open forums like this will put you on the top of those lists. Things like this are best done low key and under the radar, not out in the open for all to see.


I understand where you are comming from and I would agree except that I believe if you are on a militia site, or a survival site, or a prepper site like this they have your number and you are on a watch list.

I have said this before and I will say it one more time. 
Being a vet, former militia member, a consertative Christian, having filled out multiple 4473's to purchase firearms, and a member of this forum, I would imagine I am at the head of a bunch of lists.

Do I walk around looking over my shoulder or loose sleep worrying about their idiotic lists? The answer is a great big NOPE, I don't have the time or desire to worry myself into a coma about that BS. I just get on with my life and honestly get a chuckle when I am asked if I worry about being on a list.

So I imagine anyone can now understand why I freely give advice on a number of subjects.

In the imortal words of Alfred E. Newman, "What, me worry?".


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## 101airborne

oldvet said:


> they have your number and you are on a watch list.
> and honestly get a chuckle when I am asked if I worry about being on a list.
> 
> So I imagine anyone can now understand why I freely give advice on a number of subjects.
> 
> In the imortal words of Alfred E. Newman, "What, me worry?".


I agree with Oldvet here. IMHO when tshtf and IF martial law is ordered. I doubt the "Goobermint" will have time to worry about some list that she said, he said, they............


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## TheAnt

oldsoldier said:


> I agree with Oldvet here. IMHO when tshtf and IF martial law is ordered. I doubt the "Goobermint" will have time to worry about some list that she said, he said, they............


Holy crap! They got him in the middle of his sentence... he didnt even get to finish what he was saying before the good squad nabbed him! OMG guys watch your backs or you will ...........


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## oldvet

TheAnt said:


> Holy crap! They got him in the middle of his sentence... he didnt even get to finish what he was saying before the good squad nabbed him! OMG guys watch your backs or you will ...........


ROTFL...:congrat:


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## Davarm

oldvet said:


> I understand where you are comming from and I would agree except that I believe if you are on a militia site, or a survival site, or a prepper site like this they have your number and you are on a watch list.
> 
> I have said this before and I will say it one more time.
> Being a vet, former militia member, a consertative Christian, having filled out multiple 4473's to purchase firearms, and a member of this forum, I would imagine I am at the head of a bunch of lists.
> 
> Do I walk around looking over my shoulder or loose sleep worrying about their idiotic lists? The answer is a great big NOPE, I don't have the time or desire to worry myself into a coma about that BS. I just get on with my life and honestly get a chuckle when I am asked if I worry about being on a list.
> 
> So I imagine anyone can now understand why I freely give advice on a number of subjects.
> 
> In the imortal words of Alfred E. Newman, "What, me worry?".


You are probobly right, "Can't be afraid of the wind"
I also am a vet and conservative christian. I have not actually been a member of a militia but have regularly and freely associated with those who are.


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## 101airborne

TheAnt said:


> Holy crap! They got him in the middle of his sentence... he didnt even get to finish what he was saying before the good squad nabbed him! OMG guys watch your backs or you will ...........


Nah.... just had an alzheimers moment...LOL. Gotta inject a little fun on occasion.


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## robsbunker

*FYI*

Check this out, I just found this site.............

civiliandefenseforce.com

If link does not work copy and paste to browser window


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## stand

*I joined the NRA for life, 1978*

which I am certain put me on the "main" list with Big Bro.


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## pdxr13

After you start an "Unorganized Militia", you need rules and bylaws. Make the first set of rules include dues for all members except you. Recruit FBI Agents and snitches, and make them pay dues and fine them for everything. You will have plenty of money for everything legal. But remember, you are surrounded by Alphabet Agency snitches who will suggest you start planning to make bombs for public gatherings and peace marches. You should not go along with this, but keep taking their dues. Put the on secret probation with triple dues and swearing fines. Make them watch you have a good time with all of the dues. Enjoy.


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## mojo4

Dang pdx you sound like my fantasy football league commisioner!! Now I know why they keep me in the league! But seriously, as a vet also I don't fear any lists because I actually support the constitution as written and I strongly disagree with the occuturds and progressives trying for a socialist rewrite. When we stand loud and proud it should give the commies in charge a headache.


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## bulletcatcher

Well frugal....guess us'ns that would like to be prepared knew this was why to begin with. For anyone out there that believes any talk of militia or guerrilla warfare won't raise a flag....good luck.
This is why we prepare....for the likelyhood that we won't be able to depend on anyone else. We WILL be our own worst enemy. As already stated here, you can train all you want and become a true killing machine. That and a couple hundred bucks will get you a decent funeral.
Good luck fellows. See you on the other side.


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## geo-raider

You might be interested in the Tough Mudder Boot Camp workout. Its training for a compitition, however it was designed by British Special forces.

http://toughmudder.com/training-prep/


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## oppie2005

oldsoldier said:


> Good you plan to stay/finish school. Please let me give you a bit of advice here. If your grades are good enough to do so, and you are considering the military, *go Navy or Air force.* Now while it hurts me to say so being a army vet. The navy and air force offer better training especially in the medical and technical fields. Please avoid combat arms as a primary MOS! There aren't a lot of crossover jobs in the civilian world for CA trained people. However if you get into computers, electronics, medical, engineering and such when you get out you'll have a leg up on a good career. *Not to mention the fact that if you join at say 18 you could retire at 38 and have a pension, benefits, and still be young enough to start a second career. *Add to the fact the military will pay your way to more training courses as you go along and* if your smart enough to take a non combat MOS you have a good chance of taking college classes on post/ base,* many are free or very low cost. Heck you may even get your degree and go on to OCS.
> 
> As for reading don't stop. The day any of us fail to learn something new is the day after we die.


Just wanted to piggy back off of this post. I am in the Navy, and just wanted to say that out of the choices...Air Force is the way to go. With the navy (depending on your job) you probably wont have the time or the opportunity in your first or even your second enlistment to take college courses and work towards a degree. I am currently at a joint command and work with all the other branches, and Air Force is by far better for technical training, quality of leadership, and quality of life than the Army, Navy, or Marines.

Keep in mind, if you retire from the military and accept the pension, you can be subject to punishment under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) even though you are retired.

just my .02


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## chris532008

well yes if you would intend to fight any military of the world as a militia you would be cannon fodder, yet the united states government would fall easily with a good tactician opposite, just read on the tactical abilites of nathan bedford forrest, you have to realize that when any action is set in motion it begins motion exponentially. if any group thought it wished to pursue the same a military group of well trained soldiers of 100,000 could effect it. however why waste the time, china will take care of our problem sooner or later, when it done just turn all these corrupt government employees over to them for the debt calimed, after all, it was them who created it for themselves


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## ComputerGuy

oppie2005 said:


> Keep in mind, if you retire from the military and accept the pension, you can be subject to punishment under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) even though you are retired.
> 
> just my .02


Now that was a new one on me! Looked it up and you are correct:

Military Retirees and the UCMJ

What may be surprising to those military retirees who rushed through their out processing appointments is that retired members of the regular components of the armed forces, who are entitled to pay, are also subject to the UCMJ. That means that if you are entitled to a military retirement pay you are also subject to the criminal law as prescribed by the UCMJ for the duration of your entitlement.


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## LongRider

Frugal_Farmers said:


> Third, I would focus my attention on actual prepping first. Develop your long-term food and water storage plan and implement this plan. Look at potential bug-out locations and possibly caching supplies near your bugout location.
> 
> Hope this helps a little bit.


Well spoken. While I am more of a self sustaining homestead prepper than a bug out prepper the practical beats tactical mindset is the same.

If developing real tactical knowledge and skills is the goal than there are several high quality training facilities around the country that teach everything from basic firearms skills to combat training for Spec Ops military. Give you taste of what the real deal is all about and well worth your investment. Starting out by training with real professionals from the beginning will save you from having to unlearn everything you thought you knew from playing war games in the backwoods with the bros.


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## Magus

Anyone notice the kid never came back?


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## cazetofamo

Which one?


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## woodymedic

I'm not reading this entire thread just to see if anything I'm about to post has been mentioned already, so my apologies in advance if they have. 

Army FM 3-97.6 for your mountainous terrain.
FM 3-18
And Karl Von Klausewitz "On War," especially the parts pertaining to the cavalry unit tactics.


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## LongRider

oldvet said:


> Yep, that is basically what I have said in several posts. To get the "bunker mentality" is a loosing proposition.


Not quite sure of what the definition of "bunker mentality" is. I do know that we have invested over a decade in our homestead. We bought it based upon its geographically defensible location, ample resources adjoining over a million acres of pristine wilderness. Both away from any town and where the terrain benefits our security. On the military crest of a hill with steep 900 foot cliffs makes the property inaccessible from one side. The only practical access to the property is a defensible dirt road, that bottle necks with steep cliffs on either side. If SHTF, our perimeter begins two miles from the property. It would require a full scale military assault to make it up that road if it is being defended. Anyone else will feel like the Persians at the battle of Thermopylae. It is our last stand. We have invested everything we have to make this as safe secure self sustaining home as we can. While we can survive elsewhere no other place on the planet do we have the infrastructure, resources, tools, equipment, garden, stores, fuel, power, livestock and all that is necessary to sustain our current standard of living. I'd much rather sit on our deck sipping down some single barrel bourbon, munching oyster and crab watching a HD movie on the out door screen, than playing Rambo mountain man hunkered down in some rabbit hole gnawing on squirrel. So we have made a substantial investment in time, training, practice and resources to securing our perimeter, hardening our home, and property to protect what is ours. While we do have safe rooms with hidden escape tunnels, caches along several routes through a million acres of wilderness to wilderness locations clear to a sea worthy vessel if need be. Because as I have often said we don't have a bunker nor the resources to stand against a full scale military onslaught, artillery or airstrikes. Nor am I so vain as to think that I will ever be important enough to expend those kinds of resources. Anything short of that, errant SWAT teams, maundering raiders and the like can expect a long protracted battle without a supply line or resources paying a steep price of blood and death before we abandon our home and ability to live in relative comfort and security. So if protecting what is ours, what we have built to sustain a comfortable life is a "bunker mentality" we have it in spades.
I believe that a safe secure homestead with all the tools, equipment (and replacements) fuel, power, water and ability to produce all your necessities including food for a lifetime is a far more winning proposition. Than planning on surviving with what you can carry on your back and limited caches that will eventually run out. IMO, that should be the option of last resort, when every other choice has been stripped from you because planning on living on what you can cache, store or stockpile is by definition a death sentence.


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## oldvet

LongRider that is a very good question and a very good post.

My definition of the "bunker mentality" is to plan to stay "holed up" in your bol, homestead, bunker, or wherever, fight to the death, and not have an egress route with cashed supplies that would allow you to regroup and give you the ability to retake your "bunker" later. 

IMO there is nothing wrong (and everything right) about a good defensible position, it's just that I can't see giving up the lives of my family if it comes down to either a bug out or die in place situation, and after reading your post I gather you feel the same. 

From your description you have an excellent homestead, apparently very comfortable and very defensible and I would also be hard pressed to give it up and hit "the woods" and it would only be as a last ditch effort to save my family. 

I hope this answers the "bunker mentality" question and I hope that in one or more of my past posts on the subject that I haven't offended you or anyone else.


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## FrankW

LR obviously has a great BOL set up.
And in a SHTF situation he would be well advised to stay in it.

I think "Bunker mentality" is a term out of the vernacular of the enemies of our republic trying to use catchy phrases to discredit and ridicule patriots.


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## LongRider

oldvet said:


> LongRider that is a very good question and a very good post.
> 
> My definition of the "bunker mentality" is to plan to stay "holed up" in your bol, homestead, bunker, or wherever, fight to the death, and not have an egress route with cashed supplies that would allow you to regroup and give you the ability to retake your "bunker" later.
> 
> IMO there is nothing wrong (and everything right) about a good defensible position, it's just that I can't see giving up the lives of my family if it comes down to either a bug out or die in place situation, and after reading your post I gather you feel the same.


No offense taken at all. A little surprised as I was unsure of your definition of "bunker mentality" and I have never gotten the impression that you had the bug out mountain man mind set, which is why I asked the question. Appears we are exactly on the same page. While we do our best to secure harden protect and defend what is ours painting ourselves into a corner with no other options than to leave in a body bag is obviously suicidal IMHO. I think we are best served with a plan to secure our area as best we can, know the limits our defenses, have fall back position(s) and an escape option as you said. That said depending upon what motivated you to bail you can decide whether to destroy your location as you leave or retake it at a later date as you said. Unfortunately for me if a large enough group over took my place my defenses are such that I doubt I could ever retake it alone. Maybe booby trap it in such a way that I reduce their number without destroying to much of my resources in the process. Definitely food for thought and something for me to think about.


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## Onebigelf

Depends on what you are looking for with a "militia". There is a definite place for the citizen group as a supplement for your local sheriff (who hopefully is on your side). Be good-guys who are constructive to your community and firm on constitutional principles. Revolutionaries are going to have a short shelf life. 
Check out the Kansas militia. 
http://kansasstatemilitia.webs.com/

John


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## readytogo

*Keep it civil*

A militia generally refers to an army or other fighting force that is composed of non-professional fighters, stay away from announcing it or promoting it ,keep away from Rambo wanttobe characters that may want to join your group, if that`s your intention, and if a member of your family is in active duty and is involved in this affair ,he/she may get in trouble by helping you in (militia activities).My honest opinion(ex-military) is for you guys to learn all you can about survival, first aid, shelter construction stay focus on shtf preparations mainly and keep away from paramilitary activities ,to include dressing like Para-Militias.
Another way to get more out of this endeavor is to get the wife and kids involved, camping like activities and learning to deal with emergencies is a great way to teach and learn as a group which is really what survival is all about.
Good Luck.


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## TheLazyL

LongRider said:


> ... military crest of a hill with steep 900 foot cliffs makes the property inaccessible from one side. The only practical access to the property is a defensible dirt road, that bottle necks with steep cliffs on either side. If SHTF, our perimeter begins two miles from the property. It would require a full scale military assault to make it up that road if it is being defended. ...


Shucks.

Your "defense" works both ways. If I can't "walk" in then you can't "walk" out.

A few obvious blockades/teams to insure you stay on your hill. Wait awhile to let any internal dissension to fester.

A overflight equipped with "force multipliers" to determine your main camp. Lobe in mortars or an air attack to reduce your personal, shelters, habitats and supplies.

Wait a while longer then replace the obvious blockades/teams with well concealed snipers. Shoot anyone walking down the hill.

Next problem...

Only causality on my side is the Officer that walk up the hill to take a leak then walked back down towards his troops. Really wasn't much of a lose...


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## Coastal

TheLazyL said:


> Shucks.
> 
> Your "defense" works both ways. If I can't "walk" in then you can't "walk" out.
> 
> A few obvious blockades/teams to insure you stay on your hill. Wait awhile to let any internal dissension to fester.
> 
> A overflight equipped with "force multipliers" to determine your main camp. Lobe in mortars or an air attack to reduce your personal, shelters, habitats and supplies.
> 
> Wait a while longer then replace the obvious blockades/teams with well concealed snipers. Shoot anyone walking down the hill.
> 
> Next problem...
> 
> Only causality on my side is the Officer that walk up the hill to take a leak then walked back down towards his troops. Really wasn't much of a lose...


Perhaps he has a ninja at his house and sneaks around at night slitting the throats of your mortar team and blockade team. Boom goes the dynamite.

Hypothetical battles are awesome.


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## CrackbottomLouis

I fully plan on showing up to guard your road long rider. I will accept payment in oysters, crab, and single barrel Bourbon. All jokes aside, kudos on the set up. 

Lazy L....Nothing is completely defensible. Especially against modern warfare technology. Having a defensible spot that requires an expenditure beyond what the enemy is is capable of or willing to lose is the key. If you notice the designs of old pagan forts in old England this is well illustrated. Just a large hill with fortifications and fall back points that severely increased the casualties of an opposing force making any victory very costly. Sure, any day the romans can come along with better weapons, tactics and numbers but roving bands of marauders and neighboring tribes just went for easier pickings.


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## ENIGMA6

I rather imagine that just being on the mail list for this forum is sufficient to get yourself on the monitoring list. That being said, experts say you are far more likely to survive a SHTF scenario if you have a group or team of like minded people. As far as the word militia, it is not a dirty word, and some states have [I believe] active militias. Their mission is to assist state and local government in maintaining order when the SHTF, and helping their communities, not to overthrow the Feds.


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