# Feds are raising the interest rates......



## readytogo

Wow the economy is in a roll and more jobs for everybody even the GDP is up 3.20% that is great but someone forgot to tell the grocery boys because bacon around here is $7 a pound bread is over $2 a pound and milk is about $6 a gallon $12-$15 for a pack of chicken breast so if you are not good in the kitchen you better rob a bank.


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## AmishHeart

I believe the economy is going to tank. It's probably just waiting till after Christmas.


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## LastOutlaw

The posted GDP, employment and general economy numbers are all lies. Adjusted differently today than they were in years past to reflect the results that they want displayed rather than the true numbers. 

In the past there was no such thing as rolling off the unemployment rolls when you ran out of unemployment.

I'm guessing there are millions of unemployed who are simply not counted as unemployed. 

Te cost of food and energy is no longer counted in the economy numbers.

It is all BS

AH... I have seen some economists and investors who claim that once Trump is in office...(if he gets there at all) that those who have everything propped up will let it all crash in order to leave him with the blame. Most of us know it is going to happen at some point as the balloon is way over inflated as it is.


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## bacpacker

IMO, whoever won the election as a R was going to govern a rapidly failing economy. If the beast had won, it would have been propped up a while longer. 

I can see things unraveling by the tie of the inauguration if not over the holiday's. Of course Trump will be blamed, not obummer and his idotic policies. The Fed stalled on acting until now to give hitlery her best shot. Now that she lost the restraints will come off. Not only will it stifle the econoy, but even worse the interest on the debt will escalate at a much higher rate. Gonna be a rough ride. I also look for the markets to tank before the end of the year due to this. Look for the MSN to start preaching doom and gloom to push it down faster uch like late 07 & 08 leading into the crash.


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## hiwall

Wow! The Fed raised interest rates 1/4 of 1% in a whole year. The rates have been near zero for 8 years. The Fed is a joke.
2017 will likely be an interesting year.


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## Tweto

I strongly suspect that the markets, PM's, and all the financial numbers have been fabricated and propped up by a corrupt president and his gang of thieves.

Because of this I believe that we will be fine until Trump is sworn in on Jan 20 and maybe a few months past this date, but Trump will have a much tougher job after we find out that for the last 8 years it was all a lie and the real numbers are exposed.

The markets COULD collapse and PM's COULD explode to new highs.

I made the decision to only have a token presence in the markets and after the first I will be buying more PM's.


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## AmmoSgt

if you don't believe the numbers then how can your figure what will happen one way or another .. For some metrics there are alternative sources , but not many.

It has been my experience that, more often than not, folks who don't think the numbers reflect their reality haven't actually looked up what the numbers mean. Each number has a specific definition that is seldom discussed .. take unemployment for example , I think I saw a complaint that folks are just rolling off the unemployment numbers never to be counted making the numbers look better.. well there are actually 6 different ways of calculating unemployment .. the press usually only reports the U3 number sometimes they mention U6

Here are the actual definitions https://www.bls.gov/lau/stalt.htm pretty much ever statistic has a formal definition of what it represents and if an area of statistical reporting is important to you , it cam be helpful to look up the formal definition .. the MSM is rather casual about such things or may not even know what a number actually represents .

I know many prefer to operate on the assumption that every government number is a lie and every conspiracy is the gospel truth, and I wouldn't want to interfere with that.. we all have freedom of religion and folks get to believe what they believe.

but some seem unhappy with the way facts are presented ..looking up the meaning of what the numbers represent helps make sense of that.


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## AmmoSgt

about those interest rates and what they do to the debt.. about 60-65% of all that government debt is held by Americans in 401K's, or pension plans, or hedge funds, or saving accounts.

State pension plan funds, for example , have been underperforming, pretty much across the board , that is because the fixed income portion of investment portfolios are either directly or indirectly impacted by the prime rate.. that is what is getting raised by a quarter percent, the prime rate is "normally" between 4 and 6% it is what determines loan's interest rates , car loans, mortgages, credit card rates.. but it also determine Bank CD rates , saving account rates, and much of the fixed income portion pay out in 401K's and other investment portfolios. In other words, the government has to pay more tax dollars to service the national debt, but about 60% of that additional cost of serving the debt goes directly or indirectly into the pockets of American citizens that save or invest. directly into the pension checks of little old widows try to live off their husbands retirement pension.


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## AmishHeart

The feds need to stop printing money.


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## AmmoSgt

AmishHeart said:


> The feds need to stop printing money.


They don't print anything that congress hasn't already spent. they can't print anything that congress doesn't spend and they can't tell congress not to spend.

The FED isn't the problem .. it's congress and the money only gets spent on what the people want. Well what the people want until they get the bill ... but that objection is always raised after the fact after the people get what they want , what congress will approve.. never before ...

Congress loves it when folks blame the FED. That way Congress never takes the heat and the FED can't say no to congress about the money by both law and the Constitution people can whine complain and bitch all day long and so long as they blame the wrong agency nothing ever has to get fixed. It a beautiful deal all the way around Congress can spend with abandon, people can have everything they want and everybody complains to the FED who may have to listen but has no power to do anything about it.


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## Tweto

AmmoSgt; Just so you know, this question of unemployment and government stats has been beaten to death already on this forum. So unless any of the newer members want to debate these with you, I don't expect any of the older members will.

The only thing I can add to this is that if you believe everything that you read then any comments that deviate from this will be a conspiracy. There was a time when it was a conspiracy that the earth was round, the sun circles the earth and smoking was good for you. But at least we had some smart enough to see the lies as the mass media wants us to see it and develop an independent thought.


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## bkt

AmmoSgt said:


> They don't print anything that congress hasn't already spent. they can't print anything that congress doesn't spend and they can't tell congress not to spend.


Quite right, and it's a symbiotic relationship made in hell. The Fed creates the dollars, Congress (and big banks) get full value of that cash since they're the first to spend it, then those dollars in the wild dilute the value of our dollars. We get screwed. Then we re-elect our representatives and senators.



AmmoSgt said:


> The FED isn't the problem


The fact that our currency isn't money is the problem, but in the context of dealing with fiat currency the Fed most certainly IS a very big part of the problem. A Congress constrained by tax revenue is, well, constrained. When the Fed monetizes our debt, that constraint is lifted.



AmmoSgt said:


> .. it's congress and the money only gets spent on what the people want. Well what the people want until they get the bill ... but that objection is always raised after the fact after the people get what they want , what congress will approve.. never before ...


If the IRS were to itemize how our tax dollars are actually spent, I bet there'd be a revolution. Part of the problem is most people have no clue what they're paying for.

Another part of the problem is people think they "deserve" whatever expenditures Congress spends on them, but other people are welfare pigs. This means Congress spends on everyone always. The answer: Congress is authorized by law to spend no money on anyone. Period. That'll never happen, though.



AmmoSgt said:


> Congress loves it when folks blame the FED. That way Congress never takes the heat and the FED can't say no to congress about the money by both law and the Constitution people can whine complain and bitch all day long and so long as they blame the wrong agency nothing ever has to get fixed. It a beautiful deal all the way around Congress can spend with abandon, people can have everything they want and everybody complains to the FED who may have to listen but has no power to do anything about it.


Congress has an approval rating of 9%. I wouldn't call that winning the popularity contest.

I get what you're saying: those doing the spending - Congress - are the problem. But if the Fed weren't there to keep providing the cash, maybe that would help curtail overspending somewhat.


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## AmmoSgt

I'm also say the IRS doesn't have anything to do with spending. the very itemized accounting for every penny spent.. less the detailed discussion of some "black" or "war" spending is called the budget that the House writes and authorizes and the President requests and that the Senate agrees to. But all approbations have to be initiated in the House.

The IRS only collects the money , and it only collects that money authorized by Congress .. IRS doesn't get a say in how it is spent.. again a distraction.

polls , are there the same polls that said Hillary was going to win? the ones that cn be rigged and that don't ask the right question..

You say 9% others say 15% and 90%+ get re-elected https://www.opensecrets.org/overview/reelect.php

I say we do away with social security and Medicare and pass a law that says adult children are responsible for the health and welfare of their aging parents the same way parents are responsible for their minor children and only if a senior doesn't have family do they get benefits .. if adult children don't or won't care for their parents we confiscate all their assets and lock them up/ put them to work on penal farms , and put the aging parents on the public dole. We also take any assets the parents have.. no more of this social security and Medicare and then the parents will hundreds of thousands to their kids after the tax payer has paid to care for other peoples parents and kids from bad homes . if you aren't giving your kids a safe and sane home .. you confiscate all the assets put the parents on a work farm and adopt the kids out or assign them to a home just like the draft after an appropriate investigation of the family to make sure they are suitable.. and if a family turns out not to be suitable they lose their kids and go to the farms as well .. this also removes the need for illegal immigrants to work the fields. And no more mortgage interest deductions they are not fair to renters.

That cuts the budget increases revenues promotes family values and fairness and discourages private debt. It would be a start.

I mean seriously can you believe the welfare leeches that let the government support their own parents their own parents for God's sake .. talk about welfare princes and princesses They let the tax payers care for their own parents .. it makes me so mad every time I think of it . I bet they let the tax payers care for their own brothers and sisters too.. that has got to come to a screeching stop .. have people no pride or sense of family?

http://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/parenting/a35860/adoption-statistics/ 100,000 kids in foster care .. my daughter has adopted one my son in law has adopted 3 we as a family bought my mother in law a house right behind us next to the grand kids and she live off her deceased husbands railroad pension.


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## hiwall

AmmoSgt said:


> They don't print anything that congress hasn't already spent. they can't print anything that congress doesn't spend and they can't tell congress not to spend.
> 
> The FED isn't the problem .. it's congress and the money only gets spent on what the people want. Well what the people want until they get the bill ... but that objection is always raised after the fact after the people get what they want , what congress will approve.. never before ...
> 
> Congress loves it when folks blame the FED. That way Congress never takes the heat and the FED can't say no to congress about the money by both law and the Constitution people can whine complain and bitch all day long and so long as they blame the wrong agency nothing ever has to get fixed. It a beautiful deal all the way around Congress can spend with abandon, people can have everything they want and everybody complains to the FED who may have to listen but has no power to do anything about it.


While it is true that the Fed does not "print" dollars they sure have the ability to add trillions of them into the world market.
Just since Obama took office they added over three trillion 'new' dollars into the system (that we know of). They can add as many as they want and don't even have to tell us.


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## Caribou

Sarge, in the words of Mark Twain, "There are liars, damn liars, and statisticians." I get a kick out our you saying that we need to believe the numbers about the economy yet the numbers in the polls for hellery you suggest that we shouldn't have believed. I didn't believe them before the election. Nobody showed for her speeches but Trump couldn't find venues large enough.

Yes, there are different numbers. The lie is that they only give us the U3 numbers. The U6 is closer to the truth but even better is the participation rate which is around 62% the last I heard. So only two out of three people working and we have close to 5% unemployment. It must be the new math.

If you look at your cash it says Federal Reserve Note. I am old enough to remember when it said, U S Dollar or Silver Certificate. Nixon took us off the Gold Standard, when that happened our money all became fiat currency. Our currency is a promissory note on the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve is a privately held bank. While the government gets to make certain appointments to the board we do not have final say on the actions of the Federal Reserve Bank. 

When you put your money in a bank you give that bank an unsecured loan. When you take cash you hold a promissory note on the Federal Reserve. You want payment on this note? Either find someone to give you something of value or go to the federal Reserve and they will pay you with...wait for it, another note. 

These notes are legal tender for all debts public and private. This means that I don't have to sell you my widget for cash unless I want to but if I give it to you on credit I am required to take cash to cover the debt.


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## AmmoSgt

hiwall said:


> While it is true that the Fed does not "print" dollars they sure have the ability to add trillions of them into the world market.
> Just since Obama took office they added over three trillion 'new' dollars into the system (that we know of). They can add as many as they want and don't even have to tell us.


not exactly

http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/07/central-banks.asp

And yet.. to one extent you are right, but I don't think it is the way you wanted to be right.

Right now the nominal value of all the stock on the DJIA is around 5.5 Trillion dollars .. lets say we have some sort of black swan event and the Dow drops 1900 points ( picking round easy numbers to work with ) roughly 10% , nominal value of the stocks on the Dow loses 550 Billion dollars . where did it go? It went into thin air .. it simply stopped existing.. it was real.. it could have been collateral on a loan One of the comapines on the Dow was worth 10 billion on paper offered up half of that paper worth as collateral on a loan 10% stopped existing .. loan went under water.. bank calls in the loan things get worse or some of the affected stock have a margin call and it can't be met .. DJIA drops another 10% That is what happened after Lehman .. where did all those dollars go.. they simply quit existing they went back into the thin air they came from .. the physical plants and jobs and workers that those dollars represented still exist unchanged as a capital asset .. but the dollars that represented them disappeared into thin air.. and now you have a vicious downward cycle .. The Fed pulled them back out of thin air and created liquidity .. only to the extent the physical asset still existed .. which had things continued downward might not have stayed true for very long plants close jobs disappear folks can't buy the product ... the physical assets lose value and match the dollar value OR you pull dollars out of the thin air again and create liquidity and plants operate jobs still exist and folks can buy the product .. if you are careful and only pull the dollars out of thin air that recently disappeared into thin air. just enough to restore what recent was .. then eventually the nominal value of the assets, assets which didn't change in the first place and didn't lose nominal value because the cycle of business was maintained returned to nominal value on the DJIA and what dollars were pulled out of thin air which first went into thin air are now back exactly as they were before they disappeared representing exactly the same value .. maybe even more value... and how do you tell if these were the exact same dollars that turned into thin air that the FED pulled out of thin air? You look at the inflation rate did the money supply change .. not the m1 thru m6 but the money supply as reflected by the dollar value of all the assets involved .. lets say you invent something new like a cell phone .. well all the money in the world is currently being used .. you took a couple dollars worth of plastic and copper and sand and did some magic and turned it into a $300 cell phone .. is it a zero sum thing where 10 billion dollars worth of cars don't get bought now because those dollars were spent on 10 Billion dollars worth of cell phones ? or did 10 billion dollars of new money get created out of thin air $317,280.49 of which went into thin air when the buggy whip industry collapsed, and those were 1910 dollars worth over 6 million of todays air dollars along with all the dollars we used to pay telephone operators with .. those air dollar all add up and they are there when a new product comes along and now we can buy 10 billion dollars of cell phones and 10 billion dollars of cars and if we balance the creation of air dollars to real things .. not too many more air dollars to chase too few new things we don't get inflation. and by spending air dollar for real things they become real dollars and circulate promoting a richer growing economy.

Folks always complain about dollars being printed out of thin air but nobody ever mentions where dollars go when the physical assets they represent , like that old house on the road out of town in that old fallow farm field that is all but finished collapsing in on itself .. where did the dollars that represented that home and farm in it's prime go as the fields turned to weeds and the fence fell down and the roof caved in... nobody ever asks about those dollars.. but that is exactly where you got the money to buy your cell phone and keep you car at the same time. dollars to air, air to dollars.

So in that sense the FED printed money out of thin air, but it was money that was already there to be printed because Ma Bell has saved Billions not paying telephone operators, they never got paid so they never spent those dollars, and all the places that used to exist where they shopped lost business or went out of business and around and around and a'round.

You can no more not print dollars out of thin air than you can stop dollar from going into thin air in the first place . Dollars representing value disappear on the west coast when a car wash closes because of the drought and magically reappear when a hamburger stand opens on the east coast at the amazingly slow rate of 53 cents for each burger made. and some how the burger stand will sell $100,000 worth of burgers and all other burger stands in that whole town will only lose $10,000 in burger sales between them .. and what is really weird people eat the burgers , the burgers disappear and the money stays real .. how the heck does that happens ? The burgers disappear.. gone in to rather bad smelling thin air but gone. and the money remains Somebody could eat a whole cow and $3000 dollars would stay real well bad example .. it baby calf remains and will grow up to be represented by those dollars .. or maybe it was the dollars of that junked Dodge that just disappeared .. paper money it is always disappearing and getting reprinted .. some air has been printed so many times you can see thru it .


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## AmmoSgt

Caribou.. sometimes I worry about you... you admit there are numbers that are organized to reflect certain things and you can see how they may not measure the right things or things in the right way and you worry about the government lying to you about the numbers.

Why do you care if the numbers are true or not? what are you using them for? Numbers true or false, as a point of fact, how does that matter for what you use them for?

Humor me, lets say , just for shats and giggles all the government numbers are perfectly true .. the government uses them to make policy and allocate resources .. how's that working for you? Okay lets do it your way ..all the numbers are totally made up... the government in still using them to make policy and allocate resources .. how is that working for you?

are you sure the numbers are the problem?

In the post before this one Hiwall thinks dollars are real things and is offended that they might be printed out of thin air .. not that banks will give him a credit card and make money out of thin air that he gets to spend .. that's okay, or at least I've not heard complaints .. But Oh My God.. if the Fed does it the economy is going to collapse ...



Caribou said:


> Sarge, in the words of Mark Twain, "There are liars, damn liars, and statisticians." I get a kick out our you saying that we need to believe the numbers about the economy yet the numbers in the polls for hellery you suggest that we shouldn't have believed. I didn't believe them before the election. Nobody showed for her speeches but Trump couldn't find venues large enough.
> 
> Yes, there are different numbers. The lie is that they only give us the U3 numbers. The U6 is closer to the truth but even better is the participation rate which is around 62% the last I heard. So only two out of three people working and we have close to 5% unemployment. It must be the new math.
> 
> If you look at your cash it says Federal Reserve Note. I am old enough to remember when it said, U S Dollar or Silver Certificate. Nixon took us off the Gold Standard, when that happened our money all became fiat currency. Our currency is a promissory note on the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve is a privately held bank. While the government gets to make certain appointments to the board we do not have final say on the actions of the Federal Reserve Bank.
> 
> When you put your money in a bank you give that bank an unsecured loan. When you take cash you hold a promissory note on the Federal Reserve. You want payment on this note? Either find someone to give you something of value or go to the federal Reserve and they will pay you with...wait for it, another note.
> 
> These notes are legal tender for all debts public and private. This means that I don't have to sell you my widget for cash unless I want to but if I give it to you on credit I am required to take cash to cover the debt.


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## hiwall

AmmoSgt said:


> not exactly
> 
> http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/07/central-banks.asp
> 
> And yet.. to one extent you are right, but I don't think it is the way you wanted to be right.
> 
> Right now the nominal value of all the stock on the DJIA is around 5.5 Trillion dollars .. lets say we have some sort of black swan event and the Dow drops 1900 points ( picking round easy numbers to work with ) roughly 10% , nominal value of the stocks on the Dow loses 550 Billion dollars . where did it go? It went into thin air .. it simply stopped existing.. it was real.. it could have been collateral on a loan One of the comapines on the Dow was worth 10 billion on paper offered up half of that paper worth as collateral on a loan 10% stopped existing .. loan went under water.. bank calls in the loan things get worse or some of the affected stock have a margin call and it can't be met .. DJIA drops another 10% That is what happened after Lehman .. where did all those dollars go.. they simply quit existing they went back into the thin air they came from .. the physical plants and jobs and workers that those dollars represented still exist unchanged as a capital asset .. but the dollars that represented them disappeared into thin air.. and now you have a vicious downward cycle .. The Fed pulled them back out of thin air and created liquidity .. only to the extent the physical asset still existed .. which had things continued downward might not have stayed true for very long plants close jobs disappear folks can't buy the product ... the physical assets lose value and match the dollar value OR you pull dollars out of the thin air again and create liquidity and plants operate jobs still exist and folks can buy the product .. if you are careful and only pull the dollars out of thin air that recently disappeared into thin air. just enough to restore what recent was .. then eventually the nominal value of the assets, assets which didn't change in the first place and didn't lose nominal value because the cycle of business was maintained returned to nominal value on the DJIA and what dollars were pulled out of thin air which first went into thin air are now back exactly as they were before they disappeared representing exactly the same value .. maybe even more value... and how do you tell if these were the exact same dollars that turned into thin air that the FED pulled out of thin air? You look at the inflation rate did the money supply change .. not the m1 thru m6 but the money supply as reflected by the dollar value of all the assets involved .. lets say you invent something new like a cell phone .. well all the money in the world is currently being used .. you took a couple dollars worth of plastic and copper and sand and did some magic and turned it into a $300 cell phone .. is it a zero sum thing where 10 billion dollars worth of cars don't get bought now because those dollars were spent on 10 Billion dollars worth of cell phones ? or did 10 billion dollars of new money get created out of thin air $317,280.49 of which went into thin air when the buggy whip industry collapsed, and those were 1910 dollars worth over 6 million of todays air dollars along with all the dollars we used to pay telephone operators with .. those air dollar all add up and they are there when a new product comes along and now we can buy 10 billion dollars of cell phones and 10 billion dollars of cars and if we balance the creation of air dollars to real things .. not too many more air dollars to chase too few new things we don't get inflation. and by spending air dollar for real things they become real dollars and circulate promoting a richer growing economy.
> 
> Folks always complain about dollars being printed out of thin air but nobody ever mentions where dollars go when the physical assets they represent , like that old house on the road out of town in that old fallow farm field that is all but finished collapsing in on itself .. where did the dollars that represented that home and farm in it's prime go as the fields turned to weeds and the fence fell down and the roof caved in... nobody ever asks about those dollars.. but that is exactly where you got the money to buy your cell phone and keep you car at the same time. dollars to air, air to dollars.
> 
> So in that sense the FED printed money out of thin air, but it was money that was already there to be printed because Ma Bell has saved Billions not paying telephone operators, they never got paid so they never spent those dollars, and all the places that used to exist where they shopped lost business or went out of business and around and around and a'round.
> 
> You can no more not print dollars out of thin air than you can stop dollar from going into thin air in the first place . Dollars representing value disappear on the west coast when a car wash closes because of the drought and magically reappear when a hamburger stand opens on the east coast at the amazingly slow rate of 53 cents for each burger made. and some how the burger stand will sell $100,000 worth of burgers and all other burger stands in that whole town will only lose $10,000 in burger sales between them .. and what is really weird people eat the burgers , the burgers disappear and the money stays real .. how the heck does that happens ? The burgers disappear.. gone in to rather bad smelling thin air but gone. and the money remains Somebody could eat a whole cow and $3000 dollars would stay real well bad example .. it baby calf remains and will grow up to be represented by those dollars .. or maybe it was the dollars of that junked Dodge that just disappeared .. paper money it is always disappearing and getting reprinted .. some air has been printed so many times you can see thru it .


Article you posted has nothing to do with it. Nothing. The Fed Can make dollars out of thin air. Every time they make dollars it is out of thin air. They have no backing of any kind. One second they have nothing and the next second they have a trillion dollars to do with as they want. What they do with that made up money is immaterial. One second no money the next second as much as they want. Oops not money I meant currency. Sorry.


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## AmmoSgt

hiwall said:


> Article you posted has nothing to do with it. Nothing. The Fed Can make dollars out of thin air. Every time they make dollars it is out of thin air. They have no backing of any kind. One second they have nothing and the next second they have a trillion dollars to do with as they want. What they do with that made up money is immaterial. One second no money the next second as much as they want. Oops not money I meant currency. Sorry.


All the dollars have exactly the same backing.. the "full faith and credit of the US"

You say the dollar that are printed out of thin air have no backing? what other kind of dollars do you think there are? and what backing do you think they have? The FED is the only place that prints dollars of any kind Fed reserve notes are the only paper money we have?

What other kind of dollars do you think there are?

What do you think is currency? and how is it different from money?

Are you talking about coins ? http://www.coinflation.com/ a US Quarter contain 3.49 cents worth of metal as of the time of this post, coinflation runs a real time calculator, and that 25 cents face value is backed only by the full faith and credit of the US. Coins are just as much minted out of thin air as paper money and have exactly the same backing as paper money.

And what is ever worse .. they collect seigniorage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seigniorage on all the coins they mint. LOL The Presidential Dollars have 4.45 cents of metal in them and the $1 face value "is backed by the full faith and credit of the US"

A paper dollar costs 4.9 cents to print and the $1 face value is backed by "the full faith and credit of the US"


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## AmmoSgt

hiwall said:


> While it is true that the Fed does not "print" dollars they sure have the ability to add trillions of them into the world market.
> Just since Obama took office they added over three trillion 'new' dollars into the system (that we know of). They can add as many as they want and don't even have to tell us.


Ahh missed one ... The FED is independent the President can't tell it to print or not to print money. The FED added 3 Trillion , actually I think it is closer to 4 Trillion, the economy, right towards the end of the Bush administration, with both the Housing and stock markets crashing lost about 4 trillion dollars or so into thin air ...

https://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/bst_recenttrends.htm it's 4.5 trillion

and yes they do have to tell us and they do ...https://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/quarterly-balance-sheet-developments-report.htm

here is the detailed report from last month
https://www.federalreserve.gov/mone..._balance_sheet_developments_report_201611.pdf

none of this is secret, none of this is a mystery it is all public knowledge only in conspiracies is it some big secret.. in real life it is called the public record .


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## AmmoSgt

Tweto said:


> AmmoSgt; Just so you know, this question of unemployment and government stats has been beaten to death already on this forum. So unless any of the newer members want to debate these with you, I don't expect any of the older members will.
> 
> The only thing I can add to this is that if you believe everything that you read then any comments that deviate from this will be a conspiracy. There was a time when it was a conspiracy that the earth was round, the sun circles the earth and smoking was good for you. But at least we had some smart enough to see the lies as the mass media wants us to see it and develop an independent thought.


Tweto so what is the truth as you know it? and how do you know it is the truth?

What are the lies that the mass media want you to believe?

and what is the independent thought that you see as truer?

Humor me, I am new here.. and I will post my sources and explain my thinking in return ...


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## AmmoSgt

look. all I care about is understanding how money works well enough so that my money is making me a good income and so I can live comfortably while being one of those folks not counted as being either employed or unemployed ... 

So far so good I have some assets, I have some investments.. and I have a comfortable income, and I retired at 39 when I got out of the military, and yes my military pension is a part of my income, but I could live comfortably without it .. those are my only credentials. 

I think the difference is I never accepted any of the conspiracies that said wealth is restricted to the few and it is all set up to screw over the average person. How to accumulate wealth and live off investments is not a secret. It is hard work, but it is more self discipline .. it starts by getting out of debt. It is all about having some specialized knowledge that allows you to see undervalued assets and understand how to work some arbitrage or another... others say it is knowing how to use leverage ... but it all boils down to understanding how money works so you can make it work for you... all the information is out there, I got my start well before there was the internet as we know it.. the internet existed .. but there was nothing on it like there is today .

I got no problem with people believing what they want about the world . believe in conspiracies all you want.. so long as it makes you money and creates an income it is true enough. I find personally the conventional lies the main stream media want your to believe are close enough to the truth to make a respectable profit. 

But always open to fresh ideas ... 

I also have discovered it is seldom about the answers you get , and it is more often about the questions you ask.


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## AmmoSgt

let me give you an example

Silver and gold are popular with some preppers ..

You can make money off silver and gold ... I prefer to work mostly with silver, but I have some gold ..
So lets make money with silver .. I saw a post a while back, can't remember who , they said they were thinking about buying a bag of silver dimes but they didn't want to count out 10,000 dimes.. a "Bag" being the standard mint "bag" of $1000 face value. they make coin counters if you want to count coins.. they make coin counter that sort copper pennies from zinc pennies and silver coin from clad coin .. they are fairly inexpensive ..every vending machine has one in it .. it's pretty low tech http://www.pennysorter.com/

but we are going to make money with silver .. silver dimes specifically .. First rule silver is bought and sold by weight , not by count .. and silver and gold is bought and sold in troy weight not in avoirdupois https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_weight a $1000 face value bag will contain between 715 to 723 troy ounces of silver depending on the wear on the coins.. the greater the wear from circulation the lighter the silver weight.. that comes out to, and don't forget the coins are only 90% silver, there is 10% some other metal copper actually in that bag as well $1000 face is about 55.11pounds for uncirculated coins 49.57 regular pounds of silver on any household scale the rest copper.

So you can just weight the bag.. doesn't matter dimes quarters halves $1000 face is 55 pounds or maybe a little less .. I prefer the little less for this money making approach .. uncirculated all tend to be 1962 thru 1964 Roosevelt's .. you are going to want wide mix of dates to make money so lots of circulated coins ..
Everybody who has ever collected coins know what the Blue book of coins values is .. it tell you how many coins were made which one are the rare ones the key dates that are worth the most money ...
But here is the catch, most of all the silver coins ever minted were melted down some say as much as 80% of all US pre 1964 silver coins were melted down .. nobody kept track of dates or mint marks .. nobody* knows what survived , nobody knows what is rare .. nobody knows the surviving numbers of any date or mint mark 
(* well actually we have a pretty good idea and we know what the market value is )

but first you have to learn how to grade coins .. self taught can only get you so far but here is where you start http://www.pcgs.com/photograde/ shows almost every coin in almost every grade .. so you can get close and it's a place to start the negotiation with a coin dealer if you find a rare of collectable coin , a silver dime in this case ..
By definition US 90% silver junk coins have no numismatic value.. that is the whole premise behind buy junk 90% coin for SHTF . for some small premium over spot from some retail silver seller like JM Bullion or APMEX but 80% of all 90% coin was melted down and we don't know what survived how do we find out what survived and in what number so we can determine if a junk coin has numismatic value ?

We know exactly how many , in this example silver dimes hve been turned in for grading to PCGS , exactly how many of each grade they have graded for ech date and mint mark and exactly what such a coin is selling for among collectors because of this http://www.pcgs.com/prices/ scroll down to mercury dimes http://www.pcgs.com/prices/priceguidedetail.aspx?ms=1&pr=1&sp=1&c=703&title=mercury+dime scroll down to individual dates and mints say a 1916 regular strike and you see how many have come in to be graded .. but here is where the fun starts click on the little red "Shop" and you see this http://www.pcgs.com/prices/priceguidedetail.aspx?ms=1&pr=1&sp=1&c=703&title=mercury+dime everything that is currently on the market and for what price for what grade .. then you have to decide do you get yours graded or do you sell it naked and state what you think the grade is and negotiate with the buyer over how the picture look to them.. well

you have the basics and the resources ... currently silver dime contains about $1.16 in silver and as a junk coin maybe sells for 10% above that .. all you have to do is average about $6 a dime for 2000 dimes and you now have 8000 silver dimes about 580 troy ounces of free silver

Can you do that out of a bag .. it's been done maybe having $1000 bucks worth is more realistic of Dimes that are worth way more than their junk status silver weight .. it all depends what you do at night to relax .. maybe you got to sell 80% of the bag to break even and you only ed up with 150 roy ounces of silver for free .. you have all your money back buy another bag and do it again wash rinse repeat

You got to learn to grade .. you should practice in every coin, especially if you send them in for grading and slabing by PCGS or NGC it is usually worth the fee and you will find out how far off you are .. but in learning grading that open up being able to spot undergraded coin or naked / raw/ aka unslabbed coins for sale that are undergraded and buying them and flipping them at the proper grade. and there you are making money on your own time in your own way.

maybe if I am in the mood later if anybody is interested we will discuss buying 1000 ounce bars and making a mint literally. anybody have any artistic talent?


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## AmmoSgt

For those that looked at the dime page did you notice that, depending on grade, there is a numismatic market for every date and mint mark .. some only in MS60 and above but some as low as grade good04 

Every date on Roosevelt's also has a numismatic market but again mostly in the higher grades ... and the prices aren't as spectacular .. but there are still some coins valued in the hundreds 

it's a relaxing and exciting spare time thing to do if you have silver coins some nice music a nice magnifying lamp you should wear those white gloves for handling the coins but maybe a nice cheese plate ( with a fork) and a glass of wine or one of those little box fruity drinks with the straw ... the lap top on the right page .. some animal crackers or maybe those little Italian ones made with olive oil .


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## LastOutlaw

I have been watching AS posts closely for the last couple of weeks.
Ammo Sgt seems to be a very stubborn person that will never accept any other persons view. She believes she is always right and everyone else is either wrong or stupid. 
I think you are wasting your data even posting your view to her. 
I'm sure i will now be attacked by her but I really don't give a crap.


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## AmmoSgt

Last .. no attack.. and yep, I'm hard to convince .. but just hard , not impossible

I don't think of it as arguing as much as discussing.. I present my information and my thoughts and how I came by them ... I just ask the same in return.

That can be tricky if somebody is working strictly off the common wisdom or popular opinion without a whole lot of the background that originally formulated the position.

this comes from my background in engineering and investing .. it is a principle known as Confirmation bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Too often opinions form within a group and for one reason or another go for too long a time without being challenged or having to be defended

http://kiddynamitesworld.com/greed-confirmation-bias-disaster/

This can be a fatal flaw in a survival situation or in investing

it isn't a bad thing to have your thoughts and opinions challenged .. it could lead to greater confidence in your position, it could lead to changing your position, but more often it leads to a refinement of your position.

But yeah.. if you are just looking for accepting agreement I'm probably not worth the effort. I like to think I don't attack people as much as ideas ... most the time.. I'm human, I get frustrated, and I can get angry.

I'm definitely not the person to talk with if you don't want to defend your ideas .. but if you do want to test and defend you ideas or if you disagree with mine and want to challenge them , I'm certainly interested in dissenting positions.

All I ask is you be willing to share your sources and thought processes

You don't know me, you have no reason to think my opinions hold any special validity on their own like wise I don't know anybody here well enough to just accept an opinion that doesn't sound "right" just at face value or first hearing.. I'm sure many of mine run counter to the generally accepted but all to often unexamined opinions popular with most folks.

But I agree with you on your main point, If you don't want your position challenged or questioned .. don't engage me in the first place .. feel free to challenge mine, if I didn't want to test it , if I wasn't looking for a better argument than mine , I wouldn't have posted it. Always a chance I could learn something.


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## LastOutlaw

AmmoSgt said:


> Last .. no attack.. and yep, I'm hard to convince .. but just hard , not impossible
> 
> I don't think of it as arguing as much as discussing.. I present my information and my thoughts and how I came by them ... I just ask the same in return.
> 
> That can be tricky if somebody is working strictly off the common wisdom or popular opinion without a whole lot of the background that originally formulated the position.
> 
> this comes from my background in engineering and investing .. it is a principle known as Confirmation bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
> 
> Too often opinions form within a group and for one reason or another go for too long a time without being challenged or having to be defended
> 
> http://kiddynamitesworld.com/greed-confirmation-bias-disaster/
> 
> This can be a fatal flaw in a survival situation or in investing
> 
> it isn't a bad thing to have your thoughts and opinions challenged .. it could lead to greater confidence in your position, it could lead to changing your position, but more often it leads to a refinement of your position.
> 
> But yeah.. if you are just looking for accepting agreement I'm probably not worth the effort. I like to think I don't attack people as much as ideas ... most the time.. I'm human, I get frustrated, and I can get angry.
> 
> I'm definitely not the person to talk with if you don't want to defend your ideas .. but if you do want to test and defend you ideas or if you disagree with mine and want to challenge them , I'm certainly interested in dissenting positions.
> 
> All I ask is you be willing to share your sources and thought processes
> 
> You don't know me, you have no reason to think my opinions hold any special validity on their own like wise I don't know anybody here well enough to just accept an opinion that doesn't sound "right" just at face value or first hearing.. I'm sure many of mine run counter to the generally accepted but all to often unexamined opinions popular with most folks.
> 
> But I agree with you on your main point, If you don't want your position challenged or questioned .. don't engage me in the first place .. feel free to challenge mine, if I didn't want to test it , if I wasn't looking for a better argument than mine , I wouldn't have posted it. Always a chance I could learn something.


It is all good with me. I have posted my thoughts for the past couple of years here, changed my mind on some and stood my ground on others. To be honest I am tired of trying to rehash an old topic that has been whipped to death here over the last few years every time a new player comes in. Most of these discussions have been addressed and re-addressed in the past here. Most of these horses have been whipped to death already. if you think these opinions are actually "unexamined" you may want to use the search feature to go read older posts because I'm pretty sure most have been covered with numerous pages of thoughts, evidence and links supplied by many many members of this forum in the past.


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## Grimm

LastOutlaw said:


> I have been watching AS posts closely for the last couple of weeks.
> Ammo Sgt seems to be a very stubborn person that will never accept any other persons view. She believes she is always right and everyone else is either wrong or stupid.
> I think you are wasting your data even posting your view to her.
> I'm sure i will now be attacked by her but I really don't give a crap.


Am I the only one that noticed that AmmoSgt liked this post even though it is about them?!


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## AmmoSgt

Grimm said:


> Am I the only one that noticed that AmmoSgt liked this post even though it is about them?!


Any chance to clear up a problem.. I'm glad he said something.. I'm the new kid on the block.. I'll either fit in, find a niche, or leave, not here to cause trouble , I'm only in it for the ideas .. I have some to share , I'm hoping for some I can take away.. may save my life someday you never know.


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## terri9630

AmmoSgt said:


> I'm also say the IRS doesn't have anything to do with spending. the very itemized accounting for every penny spent.. less the detailed discussion of some "black" or "war" spending is called the budget that the House writes and authorizes and the President requests and that the Senate agrees to. But all approbations have to be initiated in the House.
> 
> The IRS only collects the money , and it only collects that money authorized by Congress .. IRS doesn't get a say in how it is spent.. again a distraction.
> 
> polls , are there the same polls that said Hillary was going to win? the ones that cn be rigged and that don't ask the right question..
> 
> You say 9% others say 15% and 90%+ get re-elected https://www.opensecrets.org/overview/reelect.php
> *I say we do away with social security and Medicare and pass a law that says adult children are responsible for the health and welfare of their aging parents the same way parents are responsible for their minor children and only if a senior doesn't have family do they get benefits .. if adult children don't or won't care for their parents we confiscate all their assets and lock them up/ put them to work on penal farms , and put the aging parents on the public dole. We also take any assets the parents have.. no more of this social security and Medicare and then the parents will hundreds of thousands to their kids after the tax payer has paid to care for other peoples parents and kids from bad homes . if you aren't giving your kids a safe and sane home .. you confiscate all the assets put the parents on a work farm and adopt the kids out or assign them to a home just like the draft after an appropriate investigation of the family to make sure they are suitable.. and if a family turns out not to be suitable they lose their kids and go to the farms as well .. this also removes the need for illegal immigrants to work the fields. And no more mortgage interest deductions they are not fair to renters. *
> 
> http://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/parenting/a35860/adoption-statistics/ 100,000 kids in foster care .. my daughter has adopted one my son in law has adopted 3 we as a family bought my mother in law a house right behind us next to the grand kids and she live off her deceased husbands railroad pension.


You could have all that and more in a communist country. Social Security and Medicare are deducted from our pay checks. We aren't given a choice on if we want to pay cause "government knows best". Quit taking it from me and I won't expect it back.


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## LastOutlaw

Grimm said:


> Am I the only one that noticed that AmmoSgt liked this post even though it is about them?!


I noticed.


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## BillS

AmmoSgt said:


> if you don't believe the numbers then how can your figure what will happen one way or another .. For some metrics there are alternative sources , but not many.
> 
> It has been my experience that, more often than not, folks who don't think the numbers reflect their reality haven't actually looked up what the numbers mean. Each number has a specific definition that is seldom discussed .. take unemployment for example , I think I saw a complaint that folks are just rolling off the unemployment numbers never to be counted making the numbers look better.. well there are actually 6 different ways of calculating unemployment .. the press usually only reports the U3 number sometimes they mention U6
> 
> Here are the actual definitions https://www.bls.gov/lau/stalt.htm pretty much ever statistic has a formal definition of what it represents and if an area of statistical reporting is important to you , it cam be helpful to look up the formal definition .. the MSM is rather casual about such things or may not even know what a number actually represents .
> 
> I know many prefer to operate on the assumption that every government number is a lie and every conspiracy is the gospel truth, and I wouldn't want to interfere with that.. we all have freedom of religion and folks get to believe what they believe.
> 
> but some seem unhappy with the way facts are presented ..looking up the meaning of what the numbers represent helps make sense of that.


There are about 100 million working age people out of the workforce. That includes those currently unemployed. RT.com says that 33% of Americans are out of the workforce. So yes, we have an economy worse than the Great Depression. If it wasn't for government payments like pensions, social security, SSI, and food stamps then we'd have millions of people starving.

https://www.rt.com/usa/238697-americans-labor-jobs-report/

The number of Americans aged 16 and older not participating in the labor force hit 92,898,000 in February, tying December's record, according to data released by the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS).

Over the longer trend, the labor force participation rate was between 62.9 percent and 62.7 percent from April 2014 through February, and has been hovering around 62.9 percent or lower in 13 of the 17 months since October 2013, the BLS data revealed.

To put it another way, when President Obama took office in January 2009, there were 80,529,000 Americans who were not participating in the workforce, which means that 12,369,000 US citizens have left the workforce since then.

The number of Americans out of the workforce jumped by 354,000 last month.

The last time the labor participation rate dropped below 63 percent was 37 years ago, in March 1978 when it was 62.8 percent.


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## AmmoSgt

BillS said:


> There are about 100 million working age people out of the workforce. That includes those currently unemployed. RT.com says that 33% of Americans are out of the workforce. So yes, we have an economy worse than the Great Depression. If it wasn't for government payments like pensions, social security, SSI, and food stamps then we'd have millions of people starving.
> 
> https://www.rt.com/usa/238697-americans-labor-jobs-report/
> 
> The number of Americans aged 16 and older not participating in the labor force hit 92,898,000 in February, tying December's record, according to data released by the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS).
> 
> Over the longer trend, the labor force participation rate was between 62.9 percent and 62.7 percent from April 2014 through February, and has been hovering around 62.9 percent or lower in 13 of the 17 months since October 2013, the BLS data revealed.
> 
> To put it another way, when President Obama took office in January 2009, there were 80,529,000 Americans who were not participating in the workforce, which means that 12,369,000 US citizens have left the workforce since then.
> 
> The number of Americans out of the workforce jumped by 354,000 last month.
> 
> The last time the labor participation rate dropped below 63 percent was 37 years ago, in March 1978 when it was 62.8 percent.


You know RT is Russia Today and they are running a propaganda campaign on us right now... you got any American sources you don't trust that you can cite to back up Trump's handlers on this?


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## fteter

The Fed raised interesting rates and will continue to raise them over the next year for one simple reason: they need to reload their gun before the next recession hits. The only weapon the Fed has to fight recession is a reduction in interest rates. It's pretty tough to do much when rates are near zero. So they're raising them now, while the economy seems to be growing at a healthy clip, so they can cut them to encourage growth when the growth rate slows.


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## bkt

AmmoSgt said:


> ...and pass a law that says adult children are responsible for the health and welfare of their aging parents the same way parents are responsible for their minor children and only if a senior doesn't have family do they get benefits .. if adult children don't or won't care for their parents we confiscate all their assets and lock them up/ put them to work on penal farms , and put the aging parents on the public dole. We also take any assets the parents have.. no more of this social security and Medicare and then the parents will hundreds of thousands to their kids after the tax payer has paid to care for other peoples parents and kids from bad homes . if you aren't giving your kids a safe and sane home .. you confiscate all the assets put the parents on a work farm and adopt the kids out or assign them to a home just like the draft after an appropriate investigation of the family to make sure they are suitable.. and if a family turns out not to be suitable they lose their kids and go to the farms as well .. this also removes the need for illegal immigrants to work the fields. And no more mortgage interest deductions they are not fair to renters.


Wow. I can't believe I missed this. AmmoSgt, if you really believe this then you're part of the problem. Coercive government that lays claim to others' wealth and property for one individual failing to care for another individual is not a government I want over me.


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## LastOutlaw

AmmoSgt said:


> You know RT is Russia Today and they are running a propaganda campaign on us right now... you got any American sources you don't trust that you can cite to back up Trump's handlers on this?


How about this one? It is from 2014 but the way they figure the numbers has not changed.

http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-ne...e-are-the-real-unemployment-numbers_05022014#

Trumps handlers????? I'm guessing maybe you felt Baby boy Bush would have been better or maybe Kasich???? More of the status quo.


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## LastOutlaw

*"Higher Rates, More Painful": The Fed Plans Constant Interest Rate Hikes For Trump's*

*"Higher Rates, More Painful": The Fed Plans Constant Interest Rate Hikes For Trump's Presidency*

http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-ne...est-rate-hikes-for-trumps-presidency_12152016

This article was written by Michael Snyder and originally published at his Economic Collapse blog.

Editor's Comment: After all the discussion - for years now - about what this will mean for the economy, one just hopes they know what they're doing. The mainstream economy has been seriously drained and deprive of life blood for many years now; the jobs of middle class and working class Americans have been threatened or destroyed. 8 long years of zero interest rates and quantitative easing has distorted the entire landscape, and impacted business, while the banks at the top of the pyramid have swelling assets, easy cash - and now a supercycle of debt that may come due on entities of all kinds that are unable to repay.

This is dangerous business, attempting to apply monetary policy from the top down, and it could be something like the throes of a junkie coming to terms with the end of his supply. It has enlarged the state, and deprived the small business and independent economy; let's just hope things turn around for the better. But it is shaky medicine, and it appears to be an issue of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

After Raising Rates Once During The Obama Years, The Fed Promises Constant Rate Hikes During The Trump Era

by Michael Snyder

Now that Donald Trump has won the election, the Federal Reserve has decided now would be a great time to start raising interest rates and slowing down the economy. Over the past several decades, the U.S. economy has always slowed down whenever interest rates have been raised significantly, and on Wednesday the Federal Open Market Committee unanimously voted to raise rates by a quarter point. Stocks immediately started falling, and by the end of the session it was their worst day since October 11th.

The funny thing is that the Federal Reserve could have been raising rates all throughout 2016, but they held off because they didn't want to hurt Hillary Clinton's chances of winning the election.

And during Barack Obama's eight years, there has only been one rate increase the entire time up until this point.

But now that Donald Trump is headed for the White House, the Federal Reserve has decided that now would be a wonderful time to raise interest rates. In addition to the rate hike on Wednesday, the Fed also announced that it is anticipating that rates will be raised three more times each year through the end of 2019&#8230;

Fed policymakers are also forecasting three rate increases in 2017, up from two in September, and maintained their projection of three hikes each in 2018 and 2019, according to median estimates. They predict the fed funds rate will be 1.4% at the end of 2017, 2.1% at the end of 2018 and 2.9% at the end of 2019, up from forecasts of 1.1%, 1.9% and 2.6%, respectively, in September. Its long-run rate is expected to be 3%, up slightly from 2.9% previously. The Fed reiterated rate increases will be "gradual."

So Barack Obama got to enjoy the benefit of having interest rates slammed to the floor throughout his presidency, and now Donald Trump is going to have to fight against the economic drag that constant interest rate hikes will cause.

How is that fair?

As rates rise, ordinary Americans are going to find that mortgage payments are going to go up, car payments are going to go up and credit card bills are going to become much more painful. The following comes from CNN&#8230;

Higher interest rates affect millions of Americans, especially if you have a credit card or savings account, or want to buy a home or a car. American savers have earned next to nothing at the bank for years. Now they could be a step closer to earning a little more interest on savings account deposits, even though one rate hike won't change things overnight.

Rates on car loans and mortgages are also likely to be affected. Those are much more closely tied to the interest on a 10-year U.S. Treasury bond, which has risen rapidly since the election. With a Fed hike coming at a time when interest on the 10-year note is also rising, that won't help borrowers.

The higher interest rates go, the more painful it will be for the economy.

If you recall, rising rates helped precipitate the financial crisis of 2008. When interest rates rose it slammed people with adjustable rate mortgages, and suddenly Americans could not afford to buy homes at the same pace they were before. We have already been watching the early stages of another housing crash start to erupt all over the nation, and rising rates will certainly not help matters.

But why does the Federal Reserve set our interest rates anyway?

We are supposed to be a free market capitalist economy. So why not let the free market set interest rates?

Many Americans are expecting an economic miracle out of Trump, but the truth is that the Federal Reserve has far more power over the economy than anyone else does. Trump can try to reduce taxes and tinker with regulations, but the Fed could end up destroying his entire economic program by constantly raising interest rates.

Of course we don't actually need economic central planners. The greatest era for economic growth in all of U.S. history came when there was no central bank, and in my article entitled "Why Donald Trump Must Shut Down The Federal Reserve And Start Issuing Debt-Free Money" I explained that Donald Trump must completely overhaul how our system works if he wants any chance of making the U.S. economy great again.

One way that Trump can start exerting influence over the Fed is by nominating the right people to the Federal Open Market Committee. According to CNN, it looks like Trump will have the opportunity to appoint four people to that committee within his first 18 months&#8230;

Two spots on the Fed's committee are currently open for Trump to nominate. Looking ahead, Fed Chair Janet Yellen's term ends in January 2018, while Vice Chair Stanley Fischer is up for re-nomination in June 2018.

Within the first 18 months of his presidency, Trump could reappoint four of the 12 people on the Fed's powerful committee - an unusual amount of influence for any president.

By endlessly manipulating the economy, the Fed has played a major role in creating economic booms and busts. Since the Fed was created in 1913, there have been 18 distinct recessions or depressions, and now the Fed is setting the stage for another one.

And anyone that tries to claim that the Fed is not political is only fooling themselves. Everyone knew that they were not going to raise rates during the months leading up to the election, and it was quite clear that this was going to benefit Hillary Clinton.

But now that Donald Trump has won the election, the Fed all of a sudden has decided that the time is perfect to begin a program of consistently raising rates.

If I was Donald Trump, I would be looking to shut down the Federal Reserve as quickly as I could. The essential functions that the Fed performs could be performed by the Treasury Department, and we would be much better off if the free market determined interest rates instead of some bureaucrats.

Unfortunately, most Americans have come to accept that it is "normal" to have a bunch of unelected, unaccountable central planners running our economic system, and so it is unlikely that we will see any major changes before our economy plunges into yet another Fed-created crisis.


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## AmmoSgt

bkt said:


> Wow. I can't believe I missed this. AmmoSgt, if you really believe this then you're part of the problem. Coercive government that lays claim to others' wealth and property for one individual failing to care for another individual is not a government I want over me.


 best argument I got to stop folks complaining about a nanny government and welfare taxes 

However... taxing folks to support other folks isn't all that different. Everybody gets taxed and everybody benefits .. even if they don't think they do because they don't directly get a check.. many significant financial obligations, like caring for ones parents are off loaded by tax dollars and we know that is a popular program because before it was implemented way to many old folks with living families including kids were simply left to rot alone and broke. the government had to step in. Folks say they may not live to collect social security so they aren't really for it.. dead give away, they don't appreciate the government taking their parents off their hands or at least assist in caring for them in a major way.

just highlighting one big benefit so many take so much for granted. And don't try to tell me each person pays for their own social security .. in a thread where folks are fussing over the folks that aren't working but not on the unemployment rolls?.. those are mostly retired folks living on social security , pensions , their own savings in retirement and /or not looking for work , it has nothing to do with anybody getting one penny of tax dollars aside from stuff like social security .. If everybody only got back what they put in, there wouldn't be any great concern over how many workers were supporting how many retirees.

I see folks getting all excited over so many of these government numbers .. and I have to ask myself .. what practical application or impact do they have in the average persons everyday life that elevate U3 or U6 or M2 to such high profile and sometimes even an emotional issue? Maybe some of the folks here can tell me how they use or apply those numbers in their everyday life. I know for a fact that they were not designed to answer any everyday practical purposes. but are rather specialized knowledge especially crafted to provide economists with data for planning purposes.

The raw number of people not in the work force , seriously, with no specifics as to why those people are not in the work force, how do people make some judgement or use them to score or compare things?... it could just as easily be a gauge of the wealth of the nation that so many can retire and not have to work I know a few of the dotcom guys that got lucky, hit it rich , either sold a business , or thru stock, and retired in their 30's .. not that I am one of those mind you, but I did retire at 38ish I am one of those not in the work force folks.. doesn't mean I don't have an income, doesn't mean I don't pay taxes .. look at the definition of the U series numbers .. look at what isn't covered .. you see a category for , oh say, day trader or venture capitalist or somebody that would just rather live modestly on a pension and have free time rather than chase more wealth than they need .. a bigger house a newer car ostentatious fine dining something with more status than a box of wine?

Somebody fill me in on what exactly you use government numbers, that are constructed for specific purposes for macro economic planning, for in your daily life?

that taking care of your parents under the same type of laws that say you have to take care of your kids makes folks angry every time.. LOL sorry, sometimes I am evil ...


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## bkt

Well, no, it's not simple. One must consider that the cost of supporting an aging parent can be extremely high. But one must also ask why the costs are so high. Much of the time, it's due to government. Whenever you present a vendor with the option of feeding from the taxpayer trough, they will - and the costs of their goods and services will skyrocket. So much for the free market.

Government declares a problem (like the justification used to implement SS), implements a solution which makes us all beholden to the government. I call bullsh!t.

Take away that taxpayer-funded trough and let prices fall to where they should be. I bet a lot of people would be spending a lot less money.

Now, as for your idea that kids should be responsible for parents, that's not terribly defensible. How much money should parents divert from their young kids to devote to their own parents who were too short-sighted to see to their own retirement? My mom is in a nursing home and pays over $14,000 per month. Should I be on the hook and spend my childrens' college funds on her? As it is, she's spending her own savings. But if government weren't mandating so many things, the cost would be a hell of a lot lower.

The solution is to get government out of the mix entirely. The role of government should be to guard our rights, not protect us from ourselves.

And no, I won't ever stop complaining about a nanny government and welfare taxes. This fundamental betrayal must never be ignored or accepted.


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## LastOutlaw

AmmoSgt said:


> For those that looked at the dime page did you notice that, depending on grade, there is a numismatic market for every date and mint mark .. some only in MS60 and above but some as low as grade good04
> 
> Every date on Roosevelt's also has a numismatic market but again mostly in the higher grades ... and the prices aren't as spectacular .. but there are still some coins valued in the hundreds
> 
> it's a relaxing and exciting spare time thing to do if you have silver coins some nice music a nice magnifying lamp you should wear those white gloves for handling the coins but maybe a nice cheese plate ( with a fork) and a glass of wine or one of those little box fruity drinks with the straw ... the lap top on the right page .. some animal crackers or maybe those little Italian ones made with olive oil .


Preppers don't buy silver and gold to "MAKE MONEY" off of. They buy silver and gold as a hedge against inflation. If the US dollar loses value then the value of gold and silver will rise. It is more like an insurance policy that as the fiat dollar crashes the gold and silver will take it's place leaving you with some type of valuable asset rather than worthless paper like Venezuela has right now.
You do not need to learn to grade coins or any such thing. Most preppers invest in the weight of silver content and usually it is old junk silver coins that have a high silver content.


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