# Who would survive?



## TheLazyL

Who would survive?

I have read several opinions on who would survive a SHTF or EOTWAWKI event(s). Other than the elderly or those that require life sustaining medications I figure most would. But another event this past weekend caused me to do a rethink.

Our driveway was a lower case b shaped. Crossing the top of the b is the county road and at the base of the b is the attached garage. 

Wife is concern about the lack of parking so last summer I cleared another area thru the woods to make a U shaped driveway with a wart on the bottom right (wart is where the bottom right half of the b is). This wart goes around a new 2,000 gallon water fountain. 

Here’s is where my rethink started.

Where I curved the driveway a bit to go around the new fountain I replaced the driveway gravel with a new lawn with 12” of top soil. Last fall Wife has a party and one of her guests decided not to park on the now 300 foot gravel driveway but parks in the new lawn and gets her car stuck. After numerous attempts I successfully rock her car out for her. Several more hours of labor in the rain I am able to get some of the “new” yard repaired.

LP Delivery Driver just backs up 50 feet in the original b part of the driveway to fill the tank. You can see the LP tank from the country road. During Christmas week a new Driver “thinks” the LP tank is behind the house, enters the driveway on the new entrance, turns too sharp and buries the Drivers side of the truck at a 45 degree angle. Semi wrecker tears up the old, new driveway and the front yard freeing the LP Truck. I got the driveway fixed before the ground froze. Took me a lot longer to get the ruts out of the front yard so I could mow this spring.

Last week wife had another party. One of her guests was leaving, checked her cell phone for messages, and left the driveway, bounces off of a tree. 

I have now revised my estimation on how many people could not survive a SHTF or EOTWAWKI event. 

I have come to the conclusion that if Drivers can’t not successfully navigate an 8’ wide, 300' hard packed gravel driveway thru a woods, they will not have the skills to survive a SHTF or EOTWAWKI.


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## BillS

It's amazing what some people can do, isn't it?

I don't know how people survive once there's no food in the stores and no stores are open. Most people have only a few days worth of food in their homes. A lot of people have guns. People can shoot every bird, squirrel, or rabbit where they live but that kind of wildlife won't last long as a food source.

It gets worse. I think most people will die of thirst. Some of those deaths will happen quicker because of diarrhea from drinking bad water. Most people live in cities and towns that are far from good sources of drinking water. A lot of the water might not be safe to drink even if it's boiled. It takes time and effort to haul water. Boiling water takes time and fuel. If you add high summer heat to the mix it becomes very difficult. If it's cold enough for people to eat snow then they're in danger of freezing to death.


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## db2469

I agree with BillS that a lot of people will die very quickly after the grid goes down for his stated reasons as well as people killing others to take what they have in a desperate attempt to survive..that's the part that might be MY biggest challenge to survival!


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## Sentry18

I see this kind of stuff all the time. I have said many times that working in law enforcement exposes one to so much depravity, bloodshed and gore that it can challenge a man's perception and shake his faith in humanity. But what really bothers me is the massive amount of stupid I see. And these people are allowed to reproduce and walk amongst us. Stupid seems to cover all ages, ethnic groups, social class, political affiliation and sex. And it is FAR worse today than it was 20 years ago.


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## cnsper

They are allowed to reproduce because "WE" have to save them from themselves. Where in the constitution does it say that the federal government has to save people from STUPID?


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## FrankW

Who will survive.. I'll approach this form a more general demographic class, I know I'll gte all sorts of heat for this but here it is:

All other things being equal:

- Males from late teens to late 20's have some of the best survival chances phyisscally.
They are the most resilient demographic and the hardest to kill via disease, drowning, starvation trauma.
- The second best survival group will be a tie between attractive young women attached to a prepared and resilient alpha male and
- males between 30 and 50, who are still in shape posses phsiycal resilience.

These things are indpendent of otehr factors such as preparedness.
teenage males suffer from poor judgement so once survival gets complicated and is not just an issue of running, physical fighting and surviving famine + desease their success would be less than it could be. though still high.

When confronted with a group of teenage males and wanting to dominate them the best call might be to identify thier alpha male and then kill him.
As a result you might have a resilient posse that would increase your chances ( and theirs if your resources and judgment are good)
You'll have to offer something to them in return.

Anyone above a certain age to without a lot of physical resilience will likely die early on unless they are well preapred and can leverage thier preparedness to attract able bodied folks ot help and defend.

Ok I was rambling a bit I admit I just got my 2nd eye surgery done a few minutes ago and still have the effect of anesthesia on me so I hope I made any sense at all.
Dont see too well either right now.

All Part of my effort to increase my resilience.

PS: I edited a bunch of typos but i cant see well due to todays surgery so I am sure i dindt find all


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## BullDozer

BlueZ said:


> Who will survive.. I'll approach this form a more general demographic class, I know I'll gte all sorts of heat for this but here it is:
> 
> All other things being equal:
> 
> - Males from late teens to late 20's have some of the best survival chances phyisscally.
> They are the most resilient demographic and the hardest to kill via disease, drowning, starvation trauma.
> - The second best survival group will be a tie between attractive young women attached to a prepared and resilient alpha male and
> - males between 30 and 50, who are still in shape posses phsiycal resilience.
> 
> These things are indpendent of otehr factors such as preparedness.
> teenage males suffer from poor judgement so once survival gets complicated and is not just an issue of running, physical fighting and surviving famine + desease their success would be less than it could be. though still high.
> 
> When confronted with a group of teenage males and wanting to dominate them the best call might be to identify thier alpha male and then kill him.
> As a result you might have a resilient posse that would increase your chances ( and theirs if your resources and judgment are good)
> You'll have to offer something to them in return.
> 
> Anyone above a certain age to without a lot of physical resilience will likely die early on unless they are well preapred and can leverage thier preparedness to attract able bodied folks ot help and defend.
> 
> Ok I was rambling a bit I admit I just got my 2nd eye surgery done a few minutes ago and still have the effect of anesthesia on me so I hope I made any sense at all.
> Dont see too well either right now.
> 
> All Part of my effort to increase my resilience.


I fit the male teen category. I am prepping for invasion from foreign country so i think we will all be on the same team and no need to kill other groups. Except for those world peace people


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## FrankW

BullDozer said:


> I fit the male teen category. I am prepping for invasion from foreign country so i think we will all be on the same team and no need to kill other groups. Except for those world peace people


I wasnt considering that as a SHTF scenario but more on the classics such as pandemic, peak oil, climate catastrophe. economic collapse etc.


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## cnsper

I don't think that age will be the determining factor. I think it will come down to those that have common sense.


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## TheLazyL

cnsper said:


> I don't think that age will be the determining factor. I think it will come down to those that have common sense.


Wow! That will eliminate a lot of sheeple


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## boomer

Love this place.

I would intentionally attempt to attract large numbers of young people, and would priorize the young women. They spend way less time beating thier chests and much more time doing productive work. As for the young men, I do not beleive any amount of SHTF will discourage them from wanting to hang out where there is a really good cook (from straight from the field scratch).

A few years ago a woman friend commented that if you want to positively motivate young men, provide FOOD and have a number of young women doing the FOOD prep. When my daughters were teenagers we had an open house brunch every Sunday fallowing yard work. My yard was pristine for the duration. I am a much better cook than landscaper.


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## Wellrounded

When I think about each person I know and how I think they will react and what they are capable of doing for themselves (family, close friends, people I run into occasionally, shop clerks, fellow club members etc), and compile a list of those I think might do ok in a serious SHtingTF time it's depressingly short.


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## 101airborne

Wellrounded said:


> When I think about each person I know and how I think they will react and what they are capable of doing for themselves (family, close friends, people I run into occasionally, shop clerks, fellow club members etc), and compile a list of those I think might do ok in a serious SHtingTF time it's depressingly short.


wellrounded... know what you mean. If you go to the grocery before a "event" forcast of bad weather or whatever, and see the panic of people when stuff runs out. People snatch up bread, milk, whatever. If they don't have the regular everyday use items even canned goods enough for 2-3 days of bad weather they will be screwed in a major incident


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## swjohnsey

Some say cockroaches will inherit Earth. The folks who survive might surprise yous.


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## Tirediron

swjohnsey said:


> Some say cockroaches will inherit Earth. The folks who survive might surprise yous.


there is a lot of truth there, some of the stupids will make it thru dumb luck, some of the most prepared will not for the opposite reason


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## seanallen

I think the major % dieoffs will be in the big cities. Simple math. The food/water after an "event" is gonna evaporate incredibly fast. Two days after, ppl will start getting hungry and thirsty. A week after lawlessness will start to erupt. Two weeks after, ppl will be fighting for scraps of food in the neighborhoods. Deaths by the hundreds of thousands. Three weeks after, the urban areas and countryside will be crawling with hungry desperate folk. This will be critical time for most preppers. Your gardens and livestock will be stolen. You show your faces outside, very real possibility of being shot. Have your sightlines cjanneling ppl into firing lanes. Not saying shoot them indiscriminately, but its there if you need it. A month after an event, most of the weak, unhealthy, or unlucky will be dead. The remainder will be preppers, the strong and vicious, and gvt types. Rule by gun will emerge.


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## swjohnsey

The politicians, of course, will be in there bunkers along with the rich.


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## BillS

swjohnsey said:


> The politicians, of course, will be in there bunkers along with the rich.


Buying into that democrat class envy, aren't you? It's stupid to resent people for what they have.

And stop and analyse your statement for a minute. Are all the rich prepared? Do you think Kobe Bryant is a prepper? What politicians have bunkers? City councilman? State congressmen? Small town mayors? Most likely, the federal government will protect what they consider to be key personnel and let everybody else die.


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## swjohnsey

I don't envy the rich, I hate 'em. Don't know about small time local politicos but state and federal will be protected. I know all top federal official will sheltered. The old shelter was recently outed so a knew secret shelter has been built.


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## Toffee

There are shelters in nearly every federal building. There are a few here in the "basement" of two federal buildings. Only this basement is nearly 15 floors deep. Trust me, they have plans in place just in case SHTF.


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## rf197

Sentry18 said:


> I see this kind of stuff all the time. I have said many times that working in law enforcement exposes one to so much depravity, bloodshed and gore that it can challenge a man's perception and shake his faith in humanity. But what really bothers me is the massive amount of stupid I see. And these people are allowed to reproduce and walk amongst us. Stupid seems to cover all ages, ethnic groups, social class, political affiliation and sex. And it is FAR worse today than it was 20 years ago.


Agree 1000%, only have 11 years in but people seemer "dumber" every year. You called 911 because there's a fish missing from your aquarium? ...Yes, that one is true.


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## swjohnsey

I know from experience, it you look closely you will find one fat fish.


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## rf197

swjohnsey said:


> I know from experience, it you look closely you will find one fat fish.


You have a shot at being a detective, the aquarium owner clearly does not.


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## LongRider

TheLazyL said:


> I have come to the conclusion that if Drivers can't not successfully navigate an 8' wide, 300' hard packed gravel driveway thru a woods, they will not have the skills to survive a SHTF or EOTWAWKI.


As I said on another thread that would be one of the upsides of a true SHTF or EOTWAWKI scenario. We would soon be rid of the vast majority of idiots that infest not only this country but the entire planet like so many cockroachs. At least cockroaches have a purpose for being and serve a useful function. For all the two legged wastes of skin, feeding and breeding off of the labors of others I can think of no better service they can offer than to serve as fertilizer.


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## readytogo

This is great question,"Who would survived"been logical,assuming that your route is pre-plan,location is safe,supplies are readytogo,(pack),plenty fuel stored,vehicle is ready.What event are we talking about?War,without the full support of the military,you have no chance;Nuclear,that`s hard to beat;Mother Nature events,well those can be handle.I personally lived through,tornadoes,floods,hurricanes,freezing snow weather,etc.Hardships like no water,electricity, monsoon season rain,have also been part of my life.The missing element is this stressful situations was (no predators).You can be sure that after surviving an event you will have them around in force,"no one is a castle by himself".Make a plan with family,friends, neighbors,to form a group,in a bug out,or stay home event,and please don`t forget to make copies of all your important papers,bank statements,etc,a nice fire proof case will do.I`m sorry for this but my military mind is on all the time.


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## IlliniWarrior

seanallen said:


> I think the major % dieoffs will be in the big cities. Simple math. The food/water after an "event" is gonna evaporate incredibly fast. Two days after, ppl will start getting hungry and thirsty. A week after lawlessness will start to erupt. Two weeks after, ppl will be fighting for scraps of food in the neighborhoods. Deaths by the hundreds of thousands. Three weeks after, the urban areas and countryside will be crawling with hungry desperate folk. This will be critical time for most preppers. Your gardens and livestock will be stolen. You show your faces outside, very real possibility of being shot. Have your sightlines cjanneling ppl into firing lanes. Not saying shoot them indiscriminately, but its there if you need it. A month after an event, most of the weak, unhealthy, or unlucky will be dead. The remainder will be preppers, the strong and vicious, and gvt types. Rule by gun will emerge.


soooooooo, what are your plans when these "big cities" people are dropped off, by FEMA in your area .... then FEMA does what it does best .... goes KERPLUNK ..... instead of these people running out of resources in the city .... they begin their rampage from the county fairgrounds, local high school, auction house, guard armory ect ect ....

there's all kinds of potential SHTFs where FEMA will evac the cities and spread people to the four winds .... if you are sitting in Jerico, KS don't discount having a load of Section 8 refugees roll thru town ....


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## LongRider

readytogo said:


> This is great question,"Who would survived"been logical,assuming that your route is pre-plan,location is safe,supplies are readytogo,(pack),plenty fuel stored,vehicle is ready.


Seriously IMHO if you are not self sustaining in a defensible location BEFORE SHTF you won't be afterwards. As you will hear me say a million times. Bugging out and building a self sustaining homestead while possible will lead a very meager hand to mouth existence at best. Me I rather sit it out on my deck listing to good tunes or watch a good movie eating oysters and elk roast


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## swjohnsey

Me and a couple of Ranger buddies could probably take that place in 20 minutes . . . or less. I don't like oysters.


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## LongRider

swjohnsey said:


> Me and a couple of Ranger buddies could probably take that place in 20 minutes . . . or less. I don't like oysters.


Fairly ignorant comment considering that you have no clue what our perimeter security is, or if you could could even get that far.


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## swjohnsey

It doesn't matter what your perimeter security is.


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## Toffee

swjohnsey said:


> Me and a couple of Ranger buddies could probably take that place in 20 minutes . . . or less. I don't like oysters.


I think the point is that no real Ranger actually would do something like that.


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## drfacefixer

LongRider said:


> Fairly ignorant comment considering that you have no clue what our perimeter security is, or if you could could even get that far.


I'm sure most rangers have seen worse than anything you could do here in the states. It's not like they've been sitting around waiting for a war. Can't really say if the other guy and his ranger buddies could do what they say, i wouldnt mess with rangers from this past decade, they've seen stuff that would turn most to jello - hence issues with PTSD during the adjustments to everyday non violent drastically boring life on post.


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## Grimm

Toffee said:


> I think the point is that no real Ranger actually would do something like that.


Take everything swjohnsey says with a grain of salt. His story changes depending on the topic up for discussion.


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## Tribal Warlord Thug

swjohnsey said:


> Me and a couple of Ranger buddies could probably take that place in 20 minutes . . . or less. I don't like oysters.


 come try that here.......i need some practice......


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## LongRider

swjohnsey said:


> It doesn't matter what your perimeter security is.


Really?
Post #42 in The And The SHTF thread



LongRider said:


> Thanks for the topic it motivated me to make an assessment of where are as of today. It took a couple of days to write and unfortunately rather lengthy. Please feel free to point out any gaps you see in self sustainability and security or offer any suggestions.
> 
> The short answer is hopefully indefinitely. The long answer is a bit more tedious
> 
> Let me preface this by saying that from 1973 to 2003 I was on the BUG OUT bus. I had scouted locations and laid down caches en route. In fact along several different routes over the decades. Over time I developed and honed what I determined to be survival skills, took a host of courses plant identification, harvesting, uses, storage and preparation. I hunted, hiked, camped and fished regularly. Including survival camping, fairly frequently. Took courses in carpentry, small engine repair, cooking, sewing knitting, first aid (EMT certified) combat medic trained and basic ER skills, welding, basic metal fabrication, automotive repair, electrical, plumbing, animal husbandry, gardening, sailing, navigation, canning, trapping, tanning, fire arms & tactical training, martial arts, to name a few. For over thirty years it seems I have been a perpetual student. I believe that I could have, would have survived bugging out, because I am a survivor. But that it would be meager, harsh and brutal existence at least based upon my experience when I tried it. If one thing went wrong, death would be eminent post SHTF there would be no one to call to come get me. So not a way of life I would want to sustain long at my age.
> 
> Some time in the 90s Working in advertising I found this culture of compulsive consumption, more never being enough, image is everything to be increasingly repugnant. It became apparent to me that a simpler way to live would suit me better. At forty I sold the business and retired. For a number of reasons, we initially decided that we would rely only on ourselves and family. We came to that decision based upon, our experiences and an honest assessment of who we are and what we have to offer.
> 
> We spent about five years looking for the perfect location for us. Long story, short is we stumbled onto a home that is absolutely perfect for our needs. It fit our criteria to a T and exceeded all of our hopes. We bought this place in a large part because it is surrounded by state land and national park. Has infinite natural resources in a defensible secure area, so that the need to bug out is not at all likely. We live up at the military crest of hill a bit over two miles up dirt road off of a two lane highway. At 900 feet elevation some folks call it a mountain. On one side of our property is a steep bluff that affords us a spectacular view of the Olympic Mountains, Hoods Canal and the wet lands below. At the bottom bordering our property is a salmon rich stream. More importantly it will become Hamburger Hill for anyone attempting an assault us from that end of our property. On the opposite side of our property across the dirt road is just over nine hundred acres of forestry land. The two mile dirt road to our place is the only practical way to our place is easily defensible.
> 
> I have very few neighbors as all the lots must be over 20 acres, two thirds of our "hill" is undeveloped state land. Those that live up here, are all liberty loving, gun tooting, Northwest hillbilly, ********, bikers, LEO and/or combat vets. As our relationship with the loose knit community of families that live up here evolved. We have agreed to come together should SHTF for perimeter security for as long as it is needed because together we can extend out perimeter away from our homes and provide far better security than if we tried to do it individually. The plan is set up a road block on our two lane dirt road where it bottle necks with steep cliffs on either side. These positions are where our community decided our perimeter is and three similar fall back positions. To that end we clear cut and bulldozed along the entry side of the road where it bottle necks eliminating any hides or cover intruders could use. Two man teams will man the road blocks with another two man team offering support from hides about fifty yards from the blockades. They will be the shooters should anyone fail to comply and leave. The rest of us will of course join in once the alarm sounds. If that road is being defended those making the assault will feel like the Persians at battle of Thermopylae. It would take a major military assault to overrun our property.
> 
> After the two mile drive up the dirt road to our place, our drive way is a good 150 yards through dense trees. The property is clearly posted. Our security is focused primarily on current day to day safety, burglaries, home invasions and the like, with an eye towards defending ourselves long enough to escape if our outer perimeter is breached. Motion sensors and cameras are spread along the perimeter and around the property. Some of the cameras are hidden others are visible all with internet feeds for off site storage on a secure server that out lawyer has access to should we become unavailable. So no matter what happens there is will be pictures of the perps and their license plates. Motion sensors alert us as soon as someone enters the property and where they are. The cameras provide real time feeds so we know what is going on outside. Once in the clearing that our home, outbuildings, shop, garden, pens are another set of motion sensors turn on out door lights and ring a bell inside the house. We have a couple of landing strip lights that I can hit intruders with to blind them if they are uninvited "guests". Before they get out of the car they will be greeted brew of attack turkeys. Don't laugh folks are terrified by those turkeys, no one gets out of the car when they are surrounded by those birds. The dogs are behind a fence that surrounds the house except the front door and driveway. They have their own entrance into the house. The two bitches bark and snarl warnings. The male hides in the house if anyone makes it to him without an escort he does not bark, he bites with teeth capable of shredding bear hide. His bitches will back him up for the feast. At the porch door is another set of cameras and a speaker system to communicate with them if they make it that far, as well as cameras around the perimeter of the house. All the windows are double paned double locked. The doors are all steel with dead bolts into a steel reinforced frame. Except the front door which is a solid oak speak easy style door I made.
> 
> A few years ago we added a 10X10 closet for the wife and a wrap around enclosed porch like those my wife grew up with in Minnesota. In the back we added a deck along the length of the back of the house, out to the cliff. We made the porch heated space so that we could use it year round. The windows offset to the original house windows, so that there is no direct line of sight into the house. Instead of drywall and texture we opted to use a plaster application method used in the 50's with plaster applied over thin metal lath and wire mesh that we put over sheets of scrap KEVLAR we got from a friend who makes insulation covers for the Alaska pipeline. The porch should make the house resistant to small arms fire and act as a choke point for anyone trying to enter the house. My wife's closet has a hidden entrance and is our safe room with an escape tunnel. Before we added the porch and deck we dug a trench and dropped in irrigation culverts big enough to crawl through that we scavenged from local farmers. Createing an escape tunnel that connects the shop/studio to the house and exits over the bluff at a point that we can drop down from or climb back to the house. When we built the shop/studio we put in a safe room that is the only access to our stores in the attic. From the attic there is an exit out to the RV port. The safe room also exits into escape tunnel underneath. Inside we are well armed with weapons on us and within easy reach, locking bedrooms, the a safe room and of course the escape hatch if needed.
> In short if you are on my property I
> A) Know that you are on the property
> B) Know where you are on the property, with a high probability of having a live video feed of your exact location and activity.
> C) I know every trail, nock, cranny and hide on my property. If you go running through the brush you are likely to trip or run over things you did not expect to be there.
> D) I have several covert exit and entry points in my home and out buildings. I know where you are. You will not know where I am.
> E) My turkeys are highly territorial, they attack, distract, and alert me to your location
> F) My dogs hunt, track and attack quietly. It is their nature. Originally bred to attack and kill bears. Dogs that have an intense innate dislike of strangers they do not bark or snarl warnings but attack with teeth capable of shredding bear hide.
> G) While my home is not bullet proof, it is bullet resistant. Your hide isn't.
> I) I have you in my sight
> 
> We have substantial stores that are continually being upgraded, rotated, used, added to and expanded, in addition to a full pantry that gets replenished from our stores. We are not yet at the level of preparedness with our food stocks as I would like, but we are working on it. We do not have a lot of guns and in the past few years limited the number of calibers. But we have enough to hunt and defend ourselves with. There is a duplicate of each gun we have and spare parts for each. A decent stock pile of ammo, more than a life times supply for each gun. Provided we do not end up engaging in some mad max on going war. Which I think is highly unlikely, contrary to the opinion of some. We have reloading supplies / equipment / manuals and how to books for the calibers we have. All new in the box (on the list of things I need to learn to do). We also have slingshots, pellet guns, compound bows and crossbows, traps, crab pots, shrimp pots, a full compliment of fresh water and salt water fishing gear .
> 
> Our well has a back up propane generator and a spare. We have (3) three hundred gallon propane tanks, several 20 gallon RV propane tanks, (2) fifty gallon propane fuel tanks for the truck. A wood stove & propane heater in the shop/studio and house. Wood, metal, machinist, carpentry, plumbing, welding, electrical, tools, machines and equipment. Sheds filled with building supplies, stores of nails, screws, pipes, hangers, etc. Spare parts and replacements for every piece of equipment. Propane generators for power, dual fuel water heaters. With duplicates of most all of our tools and equipment and spare parts to repair most all of our equipment along with appropriate repair manuals.
> 
> Our major shortfall is power. We have some smaller solar panels for things like the freezer, to recharge batteries and the like. Our primary power source are our propane generators which with prudent use will get us by for about four years with the fuel on hand. After that we will be a up a creek. With grey skies nine months of the year and surrounded by trees our location makes solar power inefficient and extremely expensive for the return. Currently wind power looks like the most viable long term solution. We are also looking into the feasibility of producing alternative fuels.
> 
> For entertainment we have several thousand CD's nearly as many Blue Rays and DVD's. A cupboard of board games. The family room is a library lined with floor to ceiling books on three walls. A crafts room filled with craft supplies. A basketball half court, outside the Studio. The Studio has heavy bags, punching bags, a weight machine, dart board, pool table, A full array of art supplies for drawing painting, sculpting, pottery and wood carving.
> 
> Even though our soil is rich it produces primarily rocks so most of our garden is on raised beds as they are easier for us to maintain. We have a Solar Gem greenhouse and a garden shed to help us extend our growing season and keep culinary herbs on hand. We do not grow all the produce we need but each year get a little closer. We have a few turkeys,and chickens. Next year we will be adding milk and meat goats. After I build some pens, shelter and run a water line to it. One thing I learned with the chickens and turkeys is it is a pain to have to lug water daily. We still lack a working breeding program to assure we can keep a genetically diverse population of live stock.
> 
> Our 922,561 acre back yard provides an infinite supply of, berries. game animals, medicinal and edible plants, mushrooms, fish, shell fish far to many to list. Each year we try to gather our fair share of
> 
> *Berries*
> bearberry, blackberry, black currant, black huckleberry, red huckleberry, blueberry, bunchberry, chokecherry, cloudberry, cranberry, crowberry, elderberry, fairy bell, golden currant, gooseberry, hairy manzanita,hawthorn, mulberry, oregon grape, pacific crabapple, raspberry, red currant, red huckleberry, salal, salmonberry, saskatoon berry, strawberry, sumach, thimbleberry,
> *Nuts*
> hazelnuts, Pine nuts,
> *Mushrooms*
> cauliflower mushroom, chicken of the woods, common puffball, golden chanterelle, hedgehog mushroom, horn of plenty, king bolete, larch bolete, lobster mushroom, morel mushroom, oyster mushroom, pine mushroom,
> *Seaweed*
> red cracked bolete, bull kelp, giant kelp, alaria, eel grass, purple laver, sea lettuce,
> *Fish*
> rock bass, lake white fish, lue catfish, channel catfish, green sunfish, warmouth, bluegill, fresh water ling, smallmouth bass, largemouth bass, yellow perch, white crappie, black crappie, mountain white fish, rainbow, steelhead, salmon, brown trout, eastern brook trout, lake trout, Walleye, arctic graylingmoose,
> *Shell Fish*
> Clams, oysters, geoducks, shrimp, crab, mussels
> *Game*
> elk, deer, bear, rabbit, quail, phesants, turkey, ducks, geese, chuckers,
> *Medicial Edible Plants*
> That my wife and now our daughters seem to have an endless store of knowledge about. We have little need for the pharmacy and delicious new flavors have been added to our diet. agoseris, arrowhead, arrow leaved balsamroot, beargrass, bistort, bracken, bulrush, burdock, camas, cattail, chicory, bedstraw, clover, coltsfoot, cow lily, dandelion, devil's club, dock, false solomon's seal, fireweed, goldenrod, ground cone, knotweed, lambs quarter, mariposa lily, miner's lettuce, marsh marigold, mountain sorrel, mustard, pearly everlasting, peppergrass, pickleweed, pineapple weed, plantain, queen's cup, roseroot, salsify, sheep sorrel, shepherd's purse, silverweed, sow thistle, stinging nettle, stonecrop, strawberry blite, sunflower, swamp hedge nettle, sweet clover, sweet gale, sweetflag, thistle, tiger lily, violet, watercress, wild bergamot, wild ginger, wild licorice, wild mint, wild rose, wood lily, yellow glacier lily, yellowcress I am sure the wife can add more than a few others.
> 
> In short we have enough natural resources to sustain us even in the event of a crop failure or shortfall. Every year we do get snowed in for a few weeks so we know every thing is up to date, working and maintained. We are working towards being completely self reliant as we can be. Everything it paid for, including the house. Our living expenses are minimal, so we have the resources to upgrade as well as travel and enjoy our retirement. Hopefully able to survive indefinitely. I seriously doubt that a few northwestern hillbillies are worth the air strikes or major military assault that would be necessary to over run us. Our goal is to be off grid self sustaining so that we may continue living a life of relative comfort regardless of what happens in the world around us.


We have several combat vets, at least couple are ex Rangers retired out of Fort Lewis, and three of the guys I ride with from here are members of Special Forces Brotherhood MC WA They are the ones who developed our perimeter security plan. But to put you BS to the test. PM me when you get to Washington with a phone number and Ill give you my address. If you can make it through my front door I have $20,000.00 cash you can have. Keep in mind this is NOT an invitation to my home if you come onto my property you will be criminally trespassing and subject the the consequences. Once inside I will extend you an invitation.


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## cnsper

> Originally Posted by swjohnsey
> It doesn't matter what your perimeter security is.


What I see is a bunch of Rambo wannabies getting themselves killed when they get too cocky. What you tend to forget is that someone protecting their own family will be much more dangerous than you give them credit for. Plus they know the terrain which is an advantage to them.

Yeah you and a couple buddies MIGHT be able to take them but is it worth it to you to sustain any damage or worse? Let's just say that what you may see as inadequate can change your mind in a hurry. Vietnam comes to mind. How many men did we lose to these non ranger trained civilians? i.e. vietcong.


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## seanallen

Cmon you guys. Enough of the chest pounding ' me Tarzan' crap. Our SF members here are to be loved and respected. That being said, most SF ppl wouldnt deign to reveal themselves in such a childish way. #leaving your enemy/opponent in the dark about your capabilities and knowledge


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## swjohnsey

Do Alamo and Maginot Line ring any bells? I have an imagine in my mind of a fat guy sitting on a deck outside his bunker. One of the primarmy Ranger missions is breaching perimeters and securing perimeters.


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## Tribal Warlord Thug

LongRider said:


> Really?
> Post #42 in The And The SHTF thread
> 
> We have several combat vets, at least couple are ex Rangers retired out of Fort Lewis, and three of the guys I ride with from here are members of Special Forces Brotherhood MC WA They are the ones who developed our perimeter security plan. But to put you BS to the test. PM me when you get to Washington with a phone number and Ill give you my address. If you can make it through my front door I have $20,000.00 cash you can have. Keep in mind this is NOT an invitation to my home if you come onto my property you will be criminally trespassing and subject the the consequences. Once inside I will extend you an invitation.


so it's a no-knock invite then right Longrider?.........:teehee:


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## Tribal Warlord Thug

hmmmmmmmmm.......north or south of Leland?.........more'n likely north


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## cnsper

swjohnsey said:


> Do Alamo and Maginot Line ring any bells? I have an imagine in my mind of a fat guy sitting on a deck outside his bunker. One of the primarmy Ranger missions is breaching perimeters and securing perimeters.


Yeah they do....

Alamo - 100 Americans against 1500 Mexicans of which 400-600 were killed and it took them 13 days to breach. You said 20 minutes.

Maginot Line - Yep that one too worked. But the French were stupid enough to not guard all borders. The Germans did not attack through this line.

Hey if that is your fantasy who am I to stop you. Breaching perimeter security is the mission of every combat unit. Otherwise, how do you get to the bad guys. Some are just quieter than others.


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## LongRider

Post deleted not productive


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## Grimm

BOYS! Put away the rulers and lets get back to the OP.


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## Aliaysonfire

Uh whoa. Wasnt expecting this kind of reaction. I guess trolls come in all shapes and sizes.


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## Gians

Somewhere there was a post on how those best able to adapt would do best in the aftermath of a disaster...probably as important as prepping.


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## BullDozer

What I hate sometimes is preppers that think they are invincible. Just because you have preps Dosent mean you will survive. Also, people that are used to living on the street will survive. Whoever adapts will thrive.


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## seanallen

Lol...LongRiders comment got deleted. Must've been pretty vulgar. Oookaaayyyy.... Are we done with the macho BS? Back to topic. 
Im guessing FEMA will probly implode BEFORE they manage to ship alla those poor souls outta the big cities. Besides, im not a cold hearted sorryass SOB like some folks want to pretend to be. If i can help a starving kid or single mother out i will. I gots mucho empathy. However, i will never, EVER!!, put a complete stranger over the health and safety of my own family.


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## Grimm

Aliaysonfire said:


> Uh whoa. Wasnt expecting this kind of reaction. I guess trolls come in all shapes and sizes.


Was that directed at me?


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## Meerkat

Wellrounded said:


> When I think about each person I know and how I think they will react and what they are capable of doing for themselves (family, close friends, people I run into occasionally, shop clerks, fellow club members etc), and compile a list of those I think might do ok in a serious SHtingTF time it's depressingly short.


Most young men I know would be lost as lambs without killer games and the girls would be lost without texting. I don't see how my grandkids keep a job ,but they do so maybe theres hope after all. 

I'd just tell the ring leader if he wants to eat for a day,kill me and hubby off,if he wants to eat for awhilelet us live. Most young people can't grow a reed much less food. We don't store a bunch of food,can't afford to,but we have chickens,garden and woods. I do can somefood in the harvest seasons though. But most of it gets eaten duringwinter.


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## Meerkat

Toffee said:


> I think the point is that no real Ranger actually would do something like that.


Who said? Do you know any Rangers? Survial is the name of the game. In a shtf situation the rules change.


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## trikey

I honestly think a lot of people may just commit suicide. I go anywhere in public and see a lot of depressed people. Or people who are always complaining how hard their life is and what not. I really think that if people had to survive a serious or long situation that many people who were not prepared will just kill themselves. You also have to think about so many people on antidepressants and when they stop taking them how many would become suicidal? How many people commit suicide everyday right now? How many of people think about it on a daily basis but have friends, coworkers, or family members to help them through it? So many people base their whole lives off of material things, what if it all disappeared tomorrow and they had nothing to show for their whole lives? I am sure many people would think that it is no longer worth living. Or the people that would see it as the end of the world completely and there is no way to survive so why struggle. All the friends, family, or even total strangers dying around someone would drive many to be suicidal. I know it would be hard to grasp or deal with for anyone. So many people would die just from suicides alone. So combine this with the people who starve, dehydrate, stupid people, drug addicts, the "That would never happen" people and I do not think many people will survive the first month or two after SHTF.


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## Wellrounded

Meerkat said:


> Most young men I know would be lost as lambs without killer games and the girls would be lost without texting. I don't see how my grandkids keep a job ,but they do so maybe theres hope after all.
> 
> I'd just tell the ring leader if he wants to eat for a day,kill me and hubby off,if he wants to eat for awhilelet us live. Most young people can't grow a reed much less food. We don't store a bunch of food,can't afford to,but we have chickens,garden and woods. I do can somefood in the harvest seasons though. But most of it gets eaten duringwinter.


I've been an employer of young (and not so young) people and the things they think are acceptable while working shock me. I've been abused by parents after sacking someone who refused to complete basic tasks asked of them. We work with a lot of younger people on a labour exchange basis now and they put much more effort into getting out of working than they ever put into the work. 
One of the things I can't stand is phone's/games at the dining table or while everyone is sitting together socially. They look at me like I'm an ogre when I tell them to put them down or leave the room (I don't care if they're hungry), no respect, no manners, no work ethic. 
The thing that saddens me the most though is when they have the chance to learn something or see something new and they have no interest at all. We had one 20 something lass staying with us and she spent a day with me sowing seed into trays. A week or so later I told her to come and look at the seedlings that were emerging. She looked at me blankly and said 'No thanks.' How can someone not be excited by that, her first seed. After a life time of growing I still run inside and tell my DH when I find the first few leaves, it still excites me so much. The young lad I have staying here at the moment took 1000 cuttings a few weeks back and has been potting up the struck cuttings, he got 975 out of the 1000 to go and just did not care, no interest at all. This is the stuff that frightens me, no interest in the world around them, no idea how it works.


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## LongRider

BullDozer said:


> What I hate sometimes is preppers that think they are invincible. Just because you have preps Dosent mean you will survive. Also, people that are used to living on the street will survive. Whoever adapts will thrive.


I despise those that are to lazy and pathetic to provide for themselves. That instead of doing anything for themselves imagine in their sick little fantasy world that they are some how tough enough take what is mine, what I have worked to build. As I said anyone one thinks they can is welcome to shut up put up and try to take what is mine.



seanallen said:


> Lol...LongRiders comment got deleted. Must've been pretty vulgar. Oookaaayyyy.... Are we done with the macho BS? Back to topic.


WRONG ASSumption, before accusing me of anything I suggest you pull your head out of your anal cavity and have a clue about what you are talking about. I deleted the post, for the reason I stated. I had simply told the OTHER loud mouth punk, now that he had talked the talk to walk the walk. Realizing that Grimm had a point, because I know no matter what I put on the table the punk is to weak and spineless to do anything other than foul the air with his reeking flatulence talking out of his rectum, so my post was not productive.

I am sick of all the low life thieving scum sucking wanna be rambo fecal eating maggots who assume that they can come take whatever they want from me or anyone else for that matter. And anyone who suggests that anything anyone has to say or do to those thieving maggots is vulgar or in any way inappropriate are just as disgusting and reprehensible waste of skin they defend.

In nearly forty years of prepping it has been about what I can learn and do to provide for myself, my family's safety and security. Never ever has it ever occurred to me to prey upon others, to deprive anyone of anything I had not rightfully earned. Never ever has being some kind of maundering raider, murder, robber, rapist, thieving fecal maggot been a consideration. Nor can I comprehend the kind of low life that would condone that mind set. Or think that ANYTHING done or said to those who would prey upon others to be vulgar or offensive in any way.

Fact is if there is any positive result of TEOTWAWKI it will be that all those thieving maggot, wanna be tough guy, entitlement parasites will die, along with those that support and condone their conduct. Ideally living long enough to experience prolonged agonizing screaming horror wallowing in their own waste begging for the mercy of death.

As I said anyone who thinks that they can take what is mine is welcome to try. Bring it on. Anyone who does not like that to bad how sad, go lay with your fecal eating maggot buddies for all I care. :rantoff:


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## Toffee

Meerkat said:


> Who said? Do you know any Rangers? Survial is the name of the game. In a shtf situation the rules change.


Actually, I do. One is a close family member and I know several of his friends who are also Rangers. And I feel confident that none of those men would forcibly breach someone's home in a SHTF situation. That is why I keep for more than just my family though. If something were to happen, then I would welcome them in, if for nothing else, then to thank them for putting themselves on the line to try to prevent the SHTF from happening.


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## seanallen

LongRider said:


> I despise those that are to lazy and pathetic to provide for themselves. That instead of doing anything for themselves imagine in their sick little fantasy world that they are some how tough enough take what is mine, what I have worked to build. As I said anyone one thinks they can is welcome to shut up put up and try to take what is mine.
> 
> WRONG ASSumption, before accusing me of anything I suggest you pull your head out of your anal cavity and have a clue about what you are talking about. I deleted the post, for the reason I stated. I had simply told the OTHER loud mouth punk, now that he had talked the talk to walk the walk. Realizing that Grimm had a point, because I know no matter what I put on the table the punk is to weak and spineless to do anything other than foul the air with his reeking flatulence talking out of his rectum, so my post was not productive.
> 
> I am sick of all the low life thieving scum sucking wanna be rambo fecal eating maggots who assume that they can come take whatever they want from me or anyone else for that matter. And anyone who suggests that anything anyone has to say or do to those thieving maggots is vulgar or in any way inappropriate are just as disgusting and reprehensible waste of skin they defend.
> 
> In nearly forty years of prepping it has been about what I can learn and do to provide for myself, my family's safety and security. Never ever has it ever occurred to me to prey upon others, to deprive anyone of anything I had not rightfully earned. Never ever has being some kind of maundering raider, murder, robber, rapist, thieving fecal maggot been a consideration. Nor can I comprehend the kind of low life that would condone that mind set. Or think that ANYTHING done or said to those who would prey upon others to be vulgar or offensive in any way.
> 
> Fact is if there is any positive result of TEOTWAWKI it will be that all those thieving maggot, wanna be tough guy, entitlement parasites will die, along with those that support and condone their conduct. Ideally living long enough to experience prolonged agonizing screaming horror wallowing in their own waste begging for the mercy of death.
> 
> As I said anyone who thinks that they can take what is mine is welcome to try. Bring it on. Anyone who does not like that to bad how sad, go lay with your fecal eating maggot buddies for all I care. :rantoff:


Lmao....over and over and over and over. Okay LongRider. I can see you got a little irked by some of our gentle comments. All you really accomplished is showing everyone here how overly sensitive you are to a little picking. Seriously, do you REALLY think SWJohnsey would come w some Ranger buddies and take whats yours? Everything youve posted about your own personal setup and preps points to a well prepared defensive position. Difficult at best to take from you and yours. Think about it man. Those who steal and rob will do it to the weak and defenseless not those like you. My advice: take a joke, man. My personal promise to you: i will not pick or tease you no more seeing as how you are such a sissy. I promise.


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## 8thDayStranger

This thread went downhill fast.


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## bigg777

Back on topic!

As others have said, adaptibility, preparedness and shear force-of-will, along with intangibles too numerous to mention will govern survival. There is a randomness to life that we can never control, only influence. (Yes, I believe in God, no I don't believe in set destiny.)

If you are going to be one of the survivors and thrivers, you will need to let go of certain precepts you now have, and open yourself to new realities and ways of thinking and behaving.

The reason it's called preparedness and not assuredness is self-evident to the thinking souls of this world.

Overly philisophical........maybe. True........absolutely!


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## LongRider

seanallen said:


> Lmao....over and over and over and over. Okay LongRider. I can see you got a little irked by some of our gentle comments. All you really accomplished is showing everyone here how overly sensitive you are to a little picking. Seriously, do you REALLY think SWJohnsey would come w some Ranger buddies and take whats yours? Everything youve posted about your own personal setup and preps points to a well prepared defensive position. Difficult at best to take from you and yours. Think about it man. Those who steal and rob will do it to the weak and defenseless not those like you. My advice: take a joke, man. My personal promise to you: i will not pick or tease you no more seeing as how you are such a sissy. I promise.


Got you sissy hanging. I do not see anything funny about child molesters, rape, robbery murder or those that defend them. Say what you will I will no longer be wasting time on any of your posts. As you have my ignore list. Sick of wasting time on POS who advocate robbing others or those who consider that as an acceptable option regardless of who they do it too. Or have nothing to contribute other than groundless insults.


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## seanallen

LongRider said:


> Got you sissy hanging. I do not see anything funny about child molesters, rape, robbery murder or those that defend them. Say what you will I will no longer be wasting time on any of your posts. As you have my ignore list. Sick of wasting time on POS who advocate robbing others or those who consider that as an acceptable option regardless of who they do it too. Or have nothing to contribute other than groundless insults.


 Sensitive. Yay, im FINALLY ON AN IGNORE LIST!!


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## TheLazyL

You can tell quite a bit about a person's mental makeup by how they respond to posts...


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## seanallen

TheLazyL said:


> You can tell quite a bit about a person's mental makeup by how they respond to posts...


Yeah i can tell. Sigh, oh well.


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## Tribal Warlord Thug

one thing about postin' info like longrider did..........it doesnt take much field intelig'lil' to locate his area.....lil' google earth pro and viola! fairly easy to triangulate..... terrible online opsec........

Originally Posted by *LongRider....*:booboo:
"We spent about five years looking for the perfect location for us. Long story, short is we stumbled onto a home that is absolutely perfect for our needs. It fit our criteria to a T and exceeded all of our hopes. We bought this place in a large part because it is surrounded by state land and national park. Has infinite natural resources in a defensible secure area, so that the need to bug out is not at all likely. We live up at the military crest of hill a bit over two miles up dirt road off of a two lane highway. At 900 feet elevation some folks call it a mountain. On one side of our property is a steep bluff that affords us a spectacular view of the Olympic Mountains, Hoods Canal and the wet lands below. At the bottom bordering our property is a salmon rich stream. More importantly it will become Hamburger Hill for anyone attempting an assault us from that end of our property. On the opposite side of our property across the dirt road is just over nine hundred acres of forestry land. The two mile dirt road to our place is the only practical way to our place is easily defensible.

I have very few neighbors as all the lots must be over 20 acres, two thirds of our "hill" is undeveloped state land."

enough info there fer even a fresh-outta-recon greenie could find............OPSEC FAILURE:sssh:


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## Tribal Warlord Thug

sorry LongRider....just seein' a flaw in posting to much info need for ground recon.........one month of glassin' and shakin' the locals fer info and bam............crosshairs are a terrible place to be caught in...other then that.....nice setup......lol


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## hilljen

I usually just lurk, but wanted to comment here. I agree, terrible opsec to outline your set up and dangle your preps in public. Because there are many idiots, not just the ones who show themselves by commenting, who would be glad to test those perimeters and take what they wanted. Also not all that wise to take the bait that drew you out of the gray and into sharp contrast. Too late now. It's out here in cyberland for all and sundry to see, for as long as electronic media shall live. Hope it was worth it to tell that little twerp off.

Also, the Rangers and Seals I know are smart enough to never announce to their opponent, "Here I come! Get ready now, I'm going to breach your perimeter!" That's the kind of thing I usually hear from my friend's twin 4yos. The element of surprise is one of the cheapest, easiest, most effective factors in a perimeter breach, and this boy done went and threw it away. But I guess the philosophy of in quiet, work fast, out without a trace isn't popular with those who are seeking glory and not the successful completion of their mission.

I think we may have 2 prime examples of what not to do. Thanks for the lessons, guys. This gives me a better picture of who will and won't survive.


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## BillS

BullDozer said:


> What I hate sometimes is preppers that think they are invincible. Just because you have preps Dosent mean you will survive. Also, people that are used to living on the street will survive. Whoever adapts will thrive.


It doesn't matter if you're used to living on the street. If you live on the street there has to be people giving you food or money. Or you've learned to steal. After the collapse there won't be food for anyone who isn't already prepared. Unless you count the meager amount of urban wildlife that exists. And that won't last long when half the population owns a gun.


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## BillS

trikey said:


> I honestly think a lot of people may just commit suicide. I go anywhere in public and see a lot of depressed people. Or people who are always complaining how hard their life is and what not. I really think that if people had to survive a serious or long situation that many people who were not prepared will just kill themselves. You also have to think about so many people on antidepressants and when they stop taking them how many would become suicidal? How many people commit suicide everyday right now? How many of people think about it on a daily basis but have friends, coworkers, or family members to help them through it? So many people base their whole lives off of material things, what if it all disappeared tomorrow and they had nothing to show for their whole lives? I am sure many people would think that it is no longer worth living. Or the people that would see it as the end of the world completely and there is no way to survive so why struggle. All the friends, family, or even total strangers dying around someone would drive many to be suicidal. I know it would be hard to grasp or deal with for anyone. So many people would die just from suicides alone. So combine this with the people who starve, dehydrate, stupid people, drug addicts, the "That would never happen" people and I do not think many people will survive the first month or two after SHTF.


I agree. I think a lot of people will kill their families and themselves after it hits the fan and everyone is hungry.

Depending on where they live, a lot of people will be miles from the nearest source of water and most likely that water won't be safe to drink. If you get sick enough to get diarrhea from polluted water and that's only water you have, you're going to die.

I think a lot of young people would commit suicide once they can't go online or text or drive or use any of their electronic toys. They'd probably consider life not to be worth living without those things.


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## BillS

hilljen said:


> I usually just lurk, but wanted to comment here. I agree, terrible opsec to outline your set up and dangle your preps in public. Because there are many idiots, not just the ones who show themselves by commenting, who would be glad to test those perimeters and take what they wanted. Also not all that wise to take the bait that drew you out of the gray and into sharp contrast. Too late now. It's out here in cyberland for all and sundry to see, for as long as electronic media shall live. Hope it was worth it to tell that little twerp off.
> 
> Also, the Rangers and Seals I know are smart enough to never announce to their opponent, "Here I come! Get ready now, I'm going to breach your perimeter!" That's the kind of thing I usually hear from my friend's twin 4yos. The element of surprise is one of the cheapest, easiest, most effective factors in a perimeter breach, and this boy done went and threw it away. But I guess the philosophy of in quiet, work fast, out without a trace isn't popular with those who are seeking glory and not the successful completion of their mission.
> 
> I think we may have 2 prime examples of what not to do. Thanks for the lessons, guys. This gives me a better picture of who will and won't survive.


All you'd have to do is wait awhile to attack someone once you warned them first. Don't do it right away. They're going to be on alert for awhile. In fact, they'll probably stay up all night and start neglecting their work on their property. You could watch from long range if you have the right equipment. Wait until a day when they've exhausted themselves getting caught up with their farm work and you'd have the best chance to take them.


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## Gians

BillS said:


> I agree. I think a lot of people will kill their families and themselves after it hits the fan and everyone is hungry.
> 
> Depending on where they live, a lot of people will be miles from the nearest source of water and most likely that water won't be safe to drink. If you get sick enough to get diarrhea from polluted water and that's only water you have, you're going to die.
> 
> I think a lot of young people would commit suicide once they can't go online or text or drive or use any of their electronic toys. They'd probably consider life not to be worth living without those things.


Sad thing is a lot of young people, esp males, are already killing themselves...yeah we'd see a definite increase.


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## LongRider

hilljen said:


> I usually just lurk, but wanted to comment here. I agree, terrible opsec to outline your set up and dangle your preps in public.


If that is a major concern probably should not be a member of this board. A quick member search will get all the info about any members preps and location anyone would wants. An IP address will get you to anyones front door in a heart beat.



Tribal Warlord Thug said:


> sorry LongRider....just seein' a flaw in posting to much info need for ground recon.........one month of glassin' and shakin' the locals fer info and bam............crosshairs are a terrible place to be caught in...other then that.....nice setup......lol


If you knew my location you'd would know no one can not get me in their cross hairs. Unless they are in a plane. I seriously doubt what I and a few Northwest ******** have is worth a full scale military assault, artillery and air strikes.

Edited to add. 
Not that you gentlemen observations are invalid but I really could give a rats ass as I told the one jerk he is welcome to come and get it if he see's fit. Won't be my first rodeo doubt it will be my last. Bottom line those who DO have the wherewithal to breach our perimeter and security can find far richer targets than our piddling lil homestead. No one is invincible anyone can be taken down so the question is which target is worth the effort? Simply stated the price that will be paid to take what is ours will be far to high. When richer softer targets are available. Could be wrong I don't spend any of my time thinking about how to rip rob and steal from others.


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