# An Open Letter To The Police



## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

*I know we have some LEO's and ex-LEO's here on the board. I found this short essay at LewRockwell and was wondering if I could get some feedback on it from a few of you. Do you feel this is accurate? Do you feel you are/were used by your superiors in ways that your position was never intended? Are you offended that someone would feel this way? Any comments you could offer would be appreciated. Thanks. UJ 

From the above link:*

The time has come for you to make a choice. You must choose where you stand. You must take a stand and decide what society you wish to live in. Do not tell us that you follow orders, we dealt with that one decades ago. We don't want to hear that policies are set far above you, by those with more power than you. They have no power without you; you are their power. Without your willing participation, they are nothing more than miserable creatures, talking to the walls in overly decorated rooms. You convert their statements into physical actions. You decide which orders to follow, and from whom. It is your call.

We know why you joined the force. You wanted to protect the weak and the innocent from the strong and vicious. You desired a society where justice is done, the guilty punished. You abhor the use of violence against women and children. You wanted to stand for good, protect those who need protection. Are you doing this now?

Have you noticed the decline, over the past few decades, in public regard for your profession? When I was growing up, the friendly police officer was a part of our neighborhood. Children aspired to grow up to be policemen; the job was respectable. Seeing a police officer nearby meant safety. Today, citizens are fearful of you. When you drive by, they shudder - the innocent as well as the guilty. A policeman in close range no longer is resassuring. Citizens today worry that they will be assaulted, be electrocuted, or in other ways be harmed by their former public servants. Children worry that they will raise suspicions. Your job has changed from keeping the peace to enforcing various arbitrary, bureaucratic dictates. Have you wondered why?

You are the hired muscle of a small group. You no longer work for us, but for an alliance of businessmen, politicians, and bankers. They are determined to make society over in the vein they wish to see it. You are their muscle, their enforcer. This is why the public no longer respects you, but rather fears you. It is why your ranks have become full of sadists uninterested in the tasks that motivated you to join the force. It explains the orders you have been receiving.

Perhaps, though, you are thinking that the men you take orders from know best. Look around you. Is our society better than it was 50 years ago? Are we better off? Are we a more moral society? Take a drive down any of our highways in your cruiser, but this time, rather than looking for speeders, take a good hard look at what you see. Count the billboards advising drivers to part with their hard-earned money for a small thrill. Notice how much of our economy is simply entertainment - playgrounds for grown-ups - designed to take away the boredom and disillusionment we all feel. How many psychiatric offices will you see? How many people stream in and out of those offices each week, perfectly healthy, except that they need a vial of pills to get over the pointlessness of their lives? Can a healthy society ever be one in which most adults take anti-depressants? Will you see the obese people lining the sidewalks? After your drive, study what has happened to our food chain, and how the government has influenced it.

As you drive, notice the traffic patterns. Don't use your lights, drive as the rest of us do. When I question the need for government, I am often referred to roads as a prime example of the good done by government. Drive through a metropolitan area, if there is one in your jurisdiction, and observe the traffic patterns. Ask yourself if government has done a good job with the roads. Are the cars moving and merging in ways that seem safe? Are the roads designed to serve the driving public, or do they seem designed to facilitate the movement of weapons first, to make access to major corporations easier second, and the safety and comfort of the public a distant last concern?

Ask yourself what it would feel like to drive down that road as a civilian. Notice that, when you aren't in the mindset of giving orders, driving becomes a matter of being given orders, almost constantly. Signs direct you, under threat of physical violence, to move in certain ways. Is a healthy society one in which citizens receive constant orders and threats? In a decent society, would every sign indicate "Prohibited"? Drive the speed limit for a time. Do you feel quite sure that going faster would be unsafe?

People move in constant fear of, quite by accident, violating some rule or other, and suffering a penalty at your hand. When you issue a ticket, who is enriched by the fine? Is it you, or is it the faceless bureaucrat who issues your orders? Are you punishing evil behavior, or a simple inability to follow the many arbitrary and contradictory rules? Why should you spend your time taking money from a man who drives safely, but in excess of a number posted on a sign, and delivering that money to men who spend their time planning mass murder?

The men you serve have had their chance; the world we have today is the one they have delivered. Have they done well? Theirs is a world in which some are forever rich at taxpayer expense, others are forever poor due to regulations preventing them from improving their lot.

You are not a leader. You are not a CEO, and you will never be paid as one is paid. You will never be granted access to the ruling class; your assigned lot is to remain forever hired muscle. You are working class, what OWS calls the 99%. Why do you serve those whose lot is different? You work hard and want a peaceful world; they start wars and collect their bailouts. Why do you choose to protect them?

Speaking of OWS, they have been cleaned out of the park. Men like you were ordered to remove them; ordered by a Wall Street billionaire. How much of his money was made honestly? My guess is none of it. He lives on bailouts, and demands that you and others like you use violence to eliminate anyone who calls him on it. Right or wrong, do you think they should have had the chance to speak? Do you think it was correct to order the use of weapons and SWAT teams against peaceful protestors? How did you feel when that took place in other countries - why is it any different when it takes place here?

It is time for you to consider where you stand. The government is force, not eloquence, not reason. The symbol of government is the barrel of a gun - a gun you hold. The government has allied with carefully selected men - not with you - to siphon wealth from the rest of us and award it to the selected ones. They regard you as the unthinking, uncaring tool of their desires. They will rip us off, trample on our rights, and you will carry it out, all without gaining a thing for yourself. Will you prove them right? Or will you stand against this? Will you join us in calling for a free market, one where some participants do not get bailed out while others get regulated into oblivion? Will you join us in calling for freedom? Or will you help them to keep their boot directly over our throat? You are one of us, not one of them, do not continue as their deluded tool. Return to your mission of protecting the innocent from the depredations of the strong - protect us from government by bailout.


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

*I saw things as a LEO that were wrong and while I didn't partake in them I didn't try to stop it... and felt bad that I stood by... it was nothing super wrong, but not right either.. I saw an Under Sheriff plant a small amount of pot during a vehicle search and then he told me to write it up and I told him the Get F'd...and to step aside because I was leaving.. yet I did nothing about it since it was a $50.00 fine and the fact was the guy was a dealer to the local youth,but we couldn't prove it, but it still wasn't right.. Had the issue ended up in court and I were sworn in I would have gladly told the truth... but no excuses... I let it slide.

I put over 50 people in jail for drunk driving in about a 2 year period. but I made more then that lock their car and I drove them home and told their wives that this time it was on me, next time he would be in jail... I never got any second offenders out of that.. I hope my moment of kindness maybe saved a life or a marriage...

So... yes I can see where the article is coming from and I see the points.. of the OWS protesters they have the right to protest, they have the right to be heard... BUT they do not have the right to break the law while doing so... when people use their rights to engage in an activity that involves stepping on others rights then it has to be stopped..

I knew we were heading down the wrong road the day they stopped painting "To Serve and Protect" on the side of cop cars..

It's not a long leap from freedom to a Dachau ... it only takes good people to not speak out against wrong.. and I feel we are heading there.

I had something happen to me many years back that made my entire day....
My wife ( a very good looking Blond) and I were walking in the local mall and a beautiful blond woman came up to me and called me by name and said how nice it was to see me etc etc... I quickly confessed I didn't know her and she stopped and laughed and said well yea I guess, then told my wife that when she was in 2nd grade she loved it when I parked my Patrol car near the cross walk and stood talking to the crossing guard because it made people really slow down or stop...lol.. this was 20 years later so she was about 27 ??... she thanked me again and I never saw again... my wife looked at me and said boy that worked out for you!!! and said honey You should have seen you're face!! DEER in the headlights!!.. hell I wasn't married to her at the time!! women are unforgiving!! lol

All in all.. I hope most LEO's will remember their Oath of office but their leaders don't and our national leaders don't so.. there ain't much hope I guess....sadly*


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

Both good post,I agree somewhat with both of you. More so with Buck far as th cops should not break the law,but also they should not get broken by the law breakers either,so its catch 2 .
I hear cops and sheriifs are joining groups now like oath keepers and first offenders . Many troops and leo's are wising up to their leaders. They did not sin up to die for the rich or other nations or to see their nation turn into a communist hell hole ruled by dictators .Hope its contagious.


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

Meerkat said:


> I hear cops and sheriifs are joining groups now like oath keepers


I visit oathkeepers occasionally. It's refreshing to here some of their views. 
The township to our south and west has a force of 6 and they cover their township and ours. We know one of them fairly well and really like him. He doesn't try to be an SS storm trooper like some in the more populated townships to our north. One of these days I'm going to ask him if he is familiar with oathkeepers.


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## yankeeswagman (Oct 20, 2011)

I was a Deputy Sheriff for 12 yrs. I use to give Drunks rides home most of the time. If i knew the person they was. and understood that this person usually didn't behave like that. Fight with the wife. Divorce stupid excueses for being drunk. or feeling good. The Head Sheriff got wind of this and ordered me to stop playing taxi on the Countys time. I informed him i was hired to protect and serve.. These people i gave rides to helped pay my wages. I just nipped something bad in the bud, got them before they got behind the wheel..
He still didn't like that much. The clincher was i was called in to a silent alarm going off at a local hardware store. Kids on the roof.. 14, yr olds.. 3 of them.
2 was on the roof.. holding onto a rope. the other one was inside a vent stuck..
I got the fire dept. there got the kid out.. and wow low and behold ... guess who's kid it was.. you guessed it.. the head Sheriff's kid. now this went to juvie court. and this happened in the town so i let the patrolman from that town handle it. i just assisted him initially.
At the hearing the judge asked how the 2 boys pled.. i asked the cop.. where's the Sheriff's kid..?
ummmm he said dunno.. i raised my hand and asked to approach the bench. i explained to the judge i assisted.. here's my report.. Where's the Sheriff's kid..?
The judge was pissed.. posponed the hearing till he could get to the bottom of this.

Well needless to say.. i really pissed off the Sheriff.. i told him you wanted me to do no favors remember..? But it seems that you wanted me to now.. just because it's your kid. Nope don't matter to me anymore.. i'm all done, not going to put up with this crap anymore.. but yeah.. It's not like it use to be anymore. I'm no longer in law enforcement, too many robo cops out there.. skin head wanna be's trying hard to look like they just got out of boot camp, and none of them have ever been in the military.
I asked one once back when the younger new hires were coming in.. Do you have a problem with lice..? no they said why.. i said your heads are all shaved off. just wondering.. ;-)


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

I'm speaking form the civilian side of the equation. I also cannot speak for the big-city situation since the nearest "big" city is over 200 miles away. 

What I'm tired of is getting pulled over for mundane, BS stops. Once for a cracked windshield (like, show me a windshield in Montant that ISN'T cracked ... they use gravel to "sand" the highways in winter because real sand - according to the EPA - causes too much air pollution). In the meantime we'd just come off the interstate where we identified at least two vehicles with obviously drunk drivers behind the wheel while the cop was sitting at a gas station watcing for people with cracked windshields!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! On top of that he had "back-up" from a local deputy sheriff! TWO COPS MAKING THE WORLD A SAFER PLACE!!!!!

Incidentally, if you think I look like some street thug or bad boy? I look like Santa Claus. Not hardly a threatening figure!

Another time it was for an inoperative license plate light. Is that the best they can do????? It's difficult to respect a profession that wastes their time with BS "law violations" while the people who are actually a danger on the road drive with impunity. (By the way, I've seen too many innocent friends die because of some drunk hitting them on the highway.)

Then there are citations written to adults for not wearing a seat belt or some other nonsense law that endangers no one except the idiot who isn't wearing a seatbelt. Don't you guys (LEO's) have enough to do keeping the streets safe? Are you so bored that you waste time harrassing people who aren't hurting anyone nor endangering anyone else? 

Now, I've been pulled over for a tail light, brake light, head light,etc. being out and recieved "fix-it" tickets. Those I don't mind. Those are safety issues. Our road is very hard on lights and I'm always having to replace them. But a license plate light?!!!!

If you're a "peace oficer" or really are there to "protect and serve" you have my full endorsement. If you're just some knee-jerk, badge wearing, thug who is enforcing the "law" please move to the USSR where you belong. Personally, I'd feel offended to be identified as a "Law Enforcement Officer."

To all the "LEO's" out there. There may come a day when you need our help. Clean up your act or you'll find out what it means to stand alone against the mob.


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## partdeux (Aug 3, 2011)

As a civilian, I find the LEO community is broken into two distinct groups, the jack booted kick ass because they can, the ones that truly care. Unfortunately, the ones that care can not or will not stand up to the 1st (and much smaller group). Even in my small town, the Chief said he couldn't control what his officers do when he's not around... pretty sad statement.


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

In the town closest to me they have a 'rule' -- not an official policy or mandate -- that every patrol has to run a license plate every 15 MINUTES, unless 'otherwise engaged in a traffic stop or other incident'; many times you will see 3 and even 4 patrol cars engaged in a simple traffic stop. I provide a 'voluntary drunk shuttle' service for free ('tips' are preemptively encouraged  ) and used to be pulled over almost nightly merely because it was 2am  I was given the distinct impression that certain municipalities would prefer to prosecute (extort) the offenders as opposed to seeing them NOT pose a danger to themselves and the community :gaah: :surrender:


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

*Just a quickie add on... I recently got stopped in OK...in an obvious speed trap.. the "Town" wasn't even in sight of the highway!! 10 MPH over the limit..."$110.00" !!!!!! can you believe that!!!! and he was "Cutting me some slack" because I have a good driving record!... and I'm still not sure there was a sign of any kind marking any city limits! and no warning of entering a 55 mph zone...

Can we all say " Revenue Enhancement "??? *


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Peace Officer*

I was a deputy sheriff. I took an oath to enforce the laws of the Commonwealth of Kentucky and the United States of America.

I worked for the citizens of my county. My allegiance was always to them.

The oath of a Kentucky Peace officer, contains this , " I swear to treat the rich the same as the poor".

My responcibility was to protect your constitutional rights.

I arrested a lot of bad people but I never violated their rights to do so.

I never allowed another Officer to violate anyones rights in my presents.

Under the law , an Officer enjoys "Soverign Immunity". This means you cannot sue me unless I violate your constitutional rights or Title seven of the Civil rights act. Any officer who risks loseing his protection under soverign immunity is an idiot.

I never gave a drunk driver a ride home . If I did that and he decided to leave again after I had contact with him and knew he was "driving under the influence" and he kills or injures another motorist, he can sue the county and the other motorist can sue the county.

If I stopped you , I had probable cause to believe a law had been broken.
I took the time to make sure you were insured in accordance with the law in Kentucky. and that you and your vehicle was properlly licensed to be on the road. Again if I failed to do this and there was an accident following my contact,I exposed the citizens of my county to a law suit.

I did not cite a citizen unless they were endangering their self or others.

In most cases a warning was sufficent. I devoted my time to apprehending and arresting criminals. If an investigation revealed that the case was borderline, I let the perpitrater go. If he or she was truely a criminal, they would do it again. I would get another , better case against them.

I never wrote a citation that did not result in a conviction or a guilty plea on some level. Most times the process would result in a lowering of the charge to expidite a guilty plea.

I never seriously injured anyone in the course of making an arrest and was never seriously injured myself but I was very lucky in that I could have been killed or forced to kill another person numerous times.

I was not the most popular officer on the department nor was I the most hated officer but the job is not a popularity contest. The job carried a great responcibility and is very rewarding if you are willing to settle for the good you are able to do and you do not have expectations of cleaning up sociaty.

I never made an enemy I did not have to make and if I arrested you , once you were cuffed and in my custody I treated you with respect as long as you would allow me to do so.

An officer will make enough enemys just doing his job without going out of his way to do so.

If you think you would be better off without the police, just wait untill they are gone !

:usaflag:


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

I'm not a cop. Never was a cop. (Almost became a game warden once, and was actually hired as such but decided in the end to stay were I was) I did work hand-in-hand with cops. City cops, mostly, There were always a few who always had to show their ass. Even the other cops didn't like them and often joked about them. 

The cops I worked with either have retired out are on the verge of it. These were the seasoned "been there, done that" boys. I'm sorry to say that even in my small burg I've noticed that the ones replacing them are not cut from the same cloth. Dressed in their subdued para-military attire festooned with gadgets and gizmos, they have developed that arrogant strut most of us are all too familiar with. I don't like it! I am offended by it. These idiots have the authority to ruin not only your day, but the remainder of your life on mostly a whim. What they say goes. Better not even think of questioning them... or you might just be in for some special attention. And God help you if you are a young person, especially out at night. You will be a target. You will be stopped and harassed even if not charged with anything. All three of my sons have been.

There are several very informative videos on youtube that everyone should watch... and then watch again. One is "Why you should never talk to a cop". Knowing what your rights are as a citizen is extremely important if ever stopped, especially now that TSA is fielding illegal "Viper" teams on our highways to stop and search travelers. 

No, the police are not my friends any longer. They may be a necessary evil, but evil they are. Those of you in LE, or who have worked in LE... this is not a slight, and there is no intentional attack here. But things have changed, and its not for the betterment of a free society.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

UncleJoe said:


> *I know we have some LEO's and ex-LEO's here on the board. I found this short essay at LewRockwell and was wondering if I could get some feedback on it from a few of you. Do you feel this is accurate? Do you feel you are/were used by your superiors in ways that your position was never intended? Are you offended that someone would feel this way? Any comments you could offer would be appreciated. Thanks. UJ
> 
> From the above link:*
> 
> You are the hired muscle of a small group. You no longer work for us, but for an alliance of businessmen, politicians, and bankers. They are determined to make society over in the vein they wish to see it. You are their muscle, their enforcer. This is why the public no longer respects you, but rather fears you. It is why your ranks have become full of sadists uninterested in the tasks that motivated you to join the force. It explains the orders you have been receiving.


I don't whether to scream or vomit.

Completely and totally untrue. The police are being shackled. Prevented from enforcing the law. When the Occupiers trespass, illegally sleep on public property, destroy property, defecate on the street, prevent businesses from operating, harass people, and assault people, the police aren't allowed to make arrests. When the marxist occupiers refuse to leave and insist on being pepper sprayed, the police are treated like Nazis. It's the lawless Occupiers and their political allies who are the danger to the country.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

I was a Security Officer/instructor, Branch Manager for a Security Company (4 yrs.), Reserve Deputy Sheriff (two yrs.), and a Detention Officer at our County jail (11 yrs.). I dealt with "good and Bad" on a daily basis including the public as well as inmates and the criminal element on the street. I, just as any other LEO, took an oath to uphold the laws of the City, County, and State and uphold the Constitution. I took that oath very seriously just as I did the times I took the oath of enlistment in the military. In my dealings with the public I did my level best to keep everything peaceful and civil, altho there were times that the individual or individuals that I was dealing with made that an almost impossible task. I made it a point to treat everyone I dealt with the same as I would want to be treated and over 90% of the time I had no physical confrontations to deal with. There are (sadly) individuals both in public and in jail that do not respond to "verbal Judo" and the only thing they understand is the use of force.
I never arrested a single individual that hadn't broken the law nor did I break any laws just so I could arrest them, IMO that makes the LEO no better than the perp. and to my mind actually worse than the perp.

Would I have followed and Unconstitional or illegal order in order to seize property or make an arrest? No absolutely not!

Do I believe that any honest and patriotic LEO (at the local and county level) would follow orders such as going into a residence without a warrant to confiscate firearms? No I do not! 

Do I believe that some of the agents of the Federal Government would do an illegal search ans seizure? 
Yes I do, they have proven that that will do just that time and again. 

To a person every City, County and even some State LEO's that I have spoken to feel exactly the same way I do and will uphold the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. 

At the same time I do realize that there will be a small percentage of "bully boys" that would jump at the chance to be "unleashed" on the public and stomp all over a person's rights. I truly believe the "bully boy" types are few in number and should pose no real threat to anyone in a SHTF situation.

Folks the City and County LEO's don't have stupid written on their foreheads and they know that even with a lawful order to enter a home to collect firearms, they would be facing firepower that would make their body armor useless. I don't know of a threat level of body armor that will stop a 30-06 round, much less a 7MM Mag or larger.

We in the Law Enforcement field that are Patriots and Constitutionilsts will not step on anyone's rights, and any LEO's that do should be dealt with just as you would any domestic terrorist. JMHO


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## horseman09 (Mar 2, 2010)

Oldvet, you and I seem to agree on most issues, but on this one, we are certainly on opposite sides of the fence.

The majority of LEOs (at least here in PA) are elitist cowboys whose strutting and driving clearly show their superiority and dominance over us lowly civilians. Many times on this forum I have vented about cops driving like punk teenagers. If they will flaunt the law when driving down the road (because the CAN), should we really expect them to respect the law any other time if they can get away with it?

LEOs who truly respect the law would set a good, highly visable example when driving by....................*obeying the law!!!* I drive interstate a lot, and I can tell you that not one in ten cops drive lawfully.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

I have been to almost every state in the U.S., many different countries, and have seen a large sampling of the LEO's across the country and world. Many of them have what I call a "God Complex", when the power and authority goes to their head they must feel like God. Those are the bad apples.

I am very fortunate that in my local area, which happens to be where I was born and raised, they still believe in "To Protect and Serve" and I have the highest regard for them. 

In my life I have lived in different areas where I would not give you a red cent for the lot of them but for the here and now, the ones in my area, they have my full support and respect. 

The ones that I not only respect but fully admire for their bearing, dedication, and professionalism are the Game Wardens. My hats off to them and they can sit at my fire anytime.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

First ... Gun confiscation will not be going door to door and collecting firearms. It will be first by registration of firearms. Question: would you as an LEO arrest someone for having an unregistered weapon if the law required registration?

After registration, laws are enacted against certain classes of firearms or, in a bad situation, all firearms. Those owning said firearms will recieve anotice to turn them in to a collection center, city hall, or some other designated location. Those who don't "voluntarily" surrender their firearms will be notified to appear within XX days to surrender those arms. If they don't, an arrest warrant will be issued for "failure to appear." As an LEO, will you arrest that person knowing that the rreason you are arresting him is because he did not surrender his firearm as required by law?

That's the way it was done in Kalifornia regarding their "assualt weapons." The police never uttered a word of protest. They were merely enforcing the law. That's what an LEO does. Enforce the law. He's a tool with a gun forcing compliance with the "law."


Second: which laws do you enforce? Do you cite everyone you see jaywalking? speeding? faulty lights? Left of center? Or do you have some discretion in which laws you enforce? Now, I'm all for discretion to a degree but c'mon!!! an inoperative license plate light? A cracked windshield (and it was a single crack, not something that would impede visibility in any way. It was just an excuse to hassle someone who was an obviously safe and sober driver but who happend to drive an old vehicle and was out later than the officer thought prudent (even though it was an out-of-county plate and they were probably going home).

Anyone seeing the difference between an officer who is protecting the public and one who is "enforcing the law"???

Third, think about the "civilians" who hear LEO's brag about breaking the law but flashing their badge when caught and enjoying that "brotherhood" that lets them of without so much as a stern rebuke. If you want respect then obey the laws and excpect your "brothers" to do the same...whether on duty or off. If you think the law shouldn't apply to you then be honest about it and run for congress.

Fourth, dump the "us vs. them" after midnight nonsense. I have a son-in-law who works late and was pulled over on two separate occassions. Once he was in his uniform and seemed to have a "legitimate" reason for being out. No citation issued. The other time he was out of uniform and didn't seem to have an excuse and was ticketed. My son was out cruising late one night and was tailed by the local cops for about 15 minutes. He's a bit like me and got behind the cops and tailed them a few blocks and they pulled him over. No laws broken except that they didn't like him following them. They told him to go home. He told them he wasn't breaking any laws, he was over 18 and he had every legal right to be driving at that time. He told them if they didn't like it he'd call his dad (me). I wasn't any kind of official but evidentally the thought of dealing with an adult (when they clearly had no legal legs to stand on) was enough for them to back off and they did. He drove around another half hour to show that he could then came home. I followed up with city hall the next day. I got some lame excuses and the promise that they'd talk to the officers involved and never heard anything more. I used to work a late shift and got off at 2:00 am. There was a distinct difference in the way I was treated when I was in uniform compared to when I was out of uniform. 

YOU DON'T OWN THE STREETS. If someone is a danger to the public then do your job. Otherwise, mind your own business.

I don't trust LEO's. They are just another branch of oppressive government. Local LEO's may or may not be a problem but the larger the force and the farther away they are from local control the worse they get. If you are an LEO think of this, I used to admire the cops but not anymore. And it's been because of what I've seen as an adult ... not as some rebellious teenager. In my experience too many cops use their authority and the law as a club to threaten us "civilians."

I could bring up lots more but what's the point. Nothing is going to change.


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## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

Man, I wish I had a printer--when my third conked in 8 years, I refused to feed the beast--I'd send this to my sheriff AND police dept---great line of thought in that letter.
Dh hauls logs and he hates the bastards DOT..yes, it's a strong emotion; he reserves it for these *******s.
HozayBuck--YOU are the kind of man we need to protect our communities--you are in my prayers.

Jezcruen--every soul in this country needs to watch that video--you know a lawyer is speaking? Does that tell us something when a lawyer tells us to never talk to a cop??

BillS...about the OWS..I don't care one way or the other..but your comment..you're generalizing...not good; all those protesters weren't misbehaving and those that were may have infiltrated the crowd to start some chit..which they did.
Think outside the box.

And MMM..I don't see gun confiscation--I do see ammo prices raised to a level only the rich can afford them.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

Horseman 

I understand where you are comming from, but i guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the good cop bad cop issue. certainly there are as I said "bully boy" types and some with the "God complex" and i cannot and will not lump all LEO's into that catagory. Let me just say that of the Officers that I served with, the vast majority of them were good honest Cops just trying to do their jobs.

Mosquito

To answer your question, no I would not arrest someone for not regestering a firearm if they had broken no other laws. The second amendment clearly states that we as citizens have a right to bear arms and says nothing about a requirement to regester them.

No I could not and would not enforce a law that I felt was unconstitutional.

Now as to rounding up or collecting the guns from law abiding citizens, well you must be cleared by the feds to purchase a firearm and fill out a 4473 form when you purchase it from a dealer right?

Well here in Texas there is no law that requires you to register your guns, but basically you did just that when you bought them, unless you got them from an individual. 

"They" know who has the firepower and who they would target if a roundup was ordered by the "Feds". The thing that I am saying is that in my neck of the woods local LEO's including the Sheriff would tell them to stick it.

You seem to have a very bitter taste in your mouth about Law Enforcement and I am honestly sorry to hear that, because as I said we are not all bad yet you seem to be lumping all LEO's in that "bully boy" image or role. 

I will also say that during my time on the street we mainly responded to dispatched calls and rarely ever worked traffic. If on the rare occasion we (myself and the deputy I was riding with) worked traffic our stops were legitimate stops, like an obivious DWI, or speeding through a school zone as well as other honest traffic violations and not stops for a busted tail light or Jay Walking.

During my time in LE I took pride in the manner in which I handeled myself when dealing with the public and the only, and I stress the only time I ever got physical was when the individual or individuals we were dealing with left me and my partner absolutely no choice. 

I will say that I do not regret any of my 35 plus years in the service of my Country and the service of my community and I do take pride in the fact that I served both honorably and to the best of my ability, and would do so again in a heartbeat.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

One of my sons and several of his friends loaded into his car one evening to go out and have dinner. He was pulled by a city cop. The reason given was because his car had a cracked tail light. Almost immediately the cop wanted to search his vehicle. Now, HOW does a traffic stop morph into a vehicle search when there was no probable cause? My son refused (as I had schooled him). So, he and his friends were held for over 45 minutes to allow time for a drug dog to be summoned to walk around the exterior of the vehicle. The dog did not indicate a "hit", and my son was finally allowed to go. But in reality, the cop could have claimed the dog hit for almost anything. As he pulled off, he said there were FIVE police cars at the scene of his traffic stop. Now folks, thats BS! It goes on all the time. Currently, state police in Kentucky are pulling out of state drivers headed west on I40 and demanding they tell the troopers how much cash they have. Anyone having what the trooper says is a large amount of cash has their money confiscated as "possible drug money". It could take weeks and numerous court appearances to get their money back. 

Cops enforce the law, period, whatever that law happens to be. They don't decide if the law is constitutional or not. They enforce the law. Its up to a judge and a court to determine if a law was violated or not, or if a law is unconstitutional, or if the police behaved in some way outside the law themselves. How many time have we read of an incident where a citizen was abused and after the police investigate themselves come out and state, "they were only following protocol"? 

Cops today are not the cops of yesterday. These young ones are different. They are dangerous. And if they are "bad" cops, they still do a lot of damage before getting any punishment or fired. Then, they just join another police force and it starts all over again

Sorry, guys. But when someone screws with my family I don't forget it, and I'll even the score later if I can. Just the way I roll!


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

oldvet said:


> ...Mosquito
> 
> ...You seem to have a very bitter taste in your mouth about Law Enforcement and I am honestly sorry to hear that, because as I said we are not all bad yet you seem to be lumping all LEO's in that "bully boy" image or role.
> 
> ...


I'm glad that you served honorably and I thank you for it. What all "LEO's" need to understand is that one bad apple leaves a very sour taste in a lot of mouths. From the civilian standpoint, who do we trust? If one out of a hundred cops are bad how do we know if the one who stopped us is good or bad? If one out of every hundred paychecks you received bounced wouldn't you be suspicious of every paycheck? Plus, if you know that you have cops that abuse thier authority and do nothing about it why should anyone else respect you or any other cop? Seriously, how much respect would you have for a mother who knows her husband is sexually abusing her daughters yet doesn't take whatever measures are necessary to stop it? Yet LEO's are apparently content to let the "bad apples" carry a gun in public and abuse their power and trust. If you knowingly let it happen you bear at least part of the responsibility for what's happening. If LEO's are charged with upholding the law yet fail to keep each other accountable they have betrayed the public, the law and most of all, everyone who wears a badge and serves honorably.


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## GaryS (Nov 15, 2011)

My son-in-law is a twenty-year patrol officer in a small town, so besides my own experience, I've heard a lot from that side.

I don't think cops have individually changed as much as all of us have. When I was a kid, cops scared me to death and some deserved to be feared. Give them any sass and you'd wear sap on the back of your head, so no intelligent person would even think of talking back or resisting. I also don't recall them conducting unwarranted searches, as we didn't do things that required a search. People respected reasonable laws and laws were written for reasonable people.

Today I fear the police because they work for governments that no longer believe in the Constitution, not because I might be abused by an officer. The cops fear the citizens because the courts no longer act responsibly, so they do what it takes to protect themselves, not the citizens. Lawbreakers and politicians respect no one or anything, while lawyers feed off the confusion, disrespect, and distrust.

When civilization devolves to where there is little but selfishness, irrational fear and lack of respect, we have what we see today.


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## horseman09 (Mar 2, 2010)

Some have referred to a once applicable and honorable motto: "Protect and Serve".

Want a glaring example of how far LEOs have deviated from that? Think Columbine. 

Badly wounded and dying teachers and students were begging for help on the phone for over 90 minutes while LEOs were hiding behind armored vehicles outside because it might be dangerous inside. 

Even from 1500 miles away, I am very bitter about the LEOs cowardice that day. I am embarrassed and ashamed. I just can't imagine how much rage I would feel if it had been one of my daughters dying and begging for help while the "protectors and servers" were cowering behind cover as my child bled out on the floor.

The action of LEOs that day is one of the most disgraceful days in America's history.

Protect and Serve? Riiiiiight.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

mosquitomountainman said:


> I'm glad that you served honorably and I thank you for it. What all "LEO's" need to understand is that one bad apple leaves a very sour taste in a lot of mouths. From the civilian standpoint, who do we trust? If one out of a hundred cops are bad how do we know if the one who stopped us is good or bad? If one out of every hundred paychecks you received bounced wouldn't you be suspicious of every paycheck? Plus, if you know that you have cops that abuse thier authority and do nothing about it why should anyone else respect you or any other cop? Seriously, how much respect would you have for a mother who knows her husband is sexually abusing her daughters yet doesn't take whatever measures are necessary to stop it? Yet LEO's are apparently content to let the "bad apples" carry a gun in public and abuse their power and trust. If you knowingly let it happen you bear at least part of the responsibility for what's happening. If LEO's are charged with upholding the law yet fail to keep each other accountable they have betrayed the public, the law and most of all, everyone who wears a badge and serves honorably.


I understand where you are comming from and I also understand that there are bad cops out there and the bad ones do bring the good ones down in the public's eyes.
I was never put in a position where I was witness to the dealings of a "bully boy" or "Bad cop" breaking the law. I can truthfully say that I would not have turned my head and ignored it. I might have been black balled by my fellow officers or even lost my job by doing "the right thing" but in my mind there is no price that can be put on integrity, you either have it and do what you know to be right no matter what may be done to you or you don't and that makes you no better than any criminal. I guess the old school LE's must be in the minority these days and that is a crying dang shame that a few bad apples can tarnish the badge.


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## horseman09 (Mar 2, 2010)

BillS and Oldvet, if you are in the tiny minority of LEOs who administer the law equally and fairly to everyone -- no matter who it is, I sincerely salute you and respect you. 

If you don't speed in your cruiser "just because you can"; if you ticket other LEOs who DO speed; if you bust drunk drivers even if they are cops; if you arrest a drunk LEO in a bar fight just like evevyone else, IMHO, you are truly, truly, a very rare and very precious bird indeed.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*That changed*

Want a glaring example of how far LEOs have deviated from that? Think Columbine.

Badly wounded and dying teachers and students were begging for help on the phone for over 90 minutes while LEOs were hiding behind armored vehicles outside because it might be dangerous inside.

Horseman,
Prior to Coliumbine, officers were taught to establish a perimeter, call for a hostage negotiator and wait out the hostage takers.

Coliumbine changed that. Officers are now taught to make immediate entry , find and engage the shooter or shooters to draw fire away from the hostages.


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## horseman09 (Mar 2, 2010)

BillM, tell that to the parents of the dead kids.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

horseman09 said:


> BillS and Oldvet, if you are in the tiny minority of LEOs who administer the law equally and fairly to everyone -- no matter who it is, I sincerely salute you and respect you.
> 
> If you don't speed in your cruiser "just because you can"; if you ticket other LEOs who DO speed; if you bust drunk drivers even if they are cops; if you arrest a drunk LEO in a bar fight just like evevyone else, IMHO, you are truly, truly, a very rare and very precious bird indeed.


I cannot speak for Bill or anyone else but myself when I say that when I was in LE I did everything in my power to be as fair and as honest as I could be and I believe I suceeded in doing so. I had to live with myself and look at myself in the mirror daily and I never wanted to be ashamed of who I saw looking back at me in that mirror. I am not bragging or BS'ing anyone when I say that the oath I took to uphold the law meant everything to me and I did nothing during my time in the Military or law Enforcement to to bring discredit to me or my unit or department and I darn sure didn't want to let the ones I cared about the most ever feel ashamed of me. YES I CAN TRUTHFULLY SAY THAT I UPHELD THE LAW NO MATTER WHO THE PERSON WAS OR WHAT THEY HAD DONE!!!! As I said you either have morals and entigrity and do what you know is right no matter WHO IT IS, or you have no buisness in that uniform.


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## horseman09 (Mar 2, 2010)

Dan........salute! America needs more -- many more like you to regain the average American Joe's confidence and respect in LEOs.


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## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

Jezcruzen said:


> One of my sons and several of his friends loaded into his car one evening to go out and have dinner. He was pulled by a city cop. The reason given was because his car had a cracked tail light. Almost immediately the cop wanted to search his vehicle. Now, HOW does a traffic stop morph into a vehicle search when there was no probable cause? My son refused (as I had schooled him). So, he and his friends were held for over 45 minutes to allow time for a drug dog to be summoned to walk around the exterior of the vehicle. The dog did not indicate a "hit", and my son was finally allowed to go. But in reality, the cop could have claimed the dog hit for almost anything. As he pulled off, he said there were FIVE police cars at the scene of his traffic stop. Now folks, thats BS! It goes on all the time. Currently, state police in Kentucky are pulling out of state drivers headed west on I40 and demanding they tell the troopers how much cash they have. Anyone having what the trooper says is a large amount of cash has their money confiscated as "possible drug money". It could take weeks and numerous court appearances to get their money back.
> 
> Cops enforce the law, period, whatever that law happens to be. They don't decide if the law is constitutional or not. They enforce the law. Its up to a judge and a court to determine if a law was violated or not, or if a law is unconstitutional, or if the police behaved in some way outside the law themselves. How many time have we read of an incident where a citizen was abused and after the police investigate themselves come out and state, "they were only following protocol"?
> 
> ...


You from Kentucky??


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

GaryS said:


> My son-in-law is a twenty-year patrol officer in a small town, so besides my own experience, I've heard a lot from that side.
> 
> I don't think cops have individually changed as much as all of us have. When I was a kid, cops scared me to death and some deserved to be feared. Give them any sass and you'd wear sap on the back of your head, so no intelligent person would even think of talking back or resisting. I also don't recall them conducting unwarranted searches, as we didn't do things that required a search. People respected reasonable laws and laws were written for reasonable people.
> 
> ...


 Most criminals now are considered victims . We are a society of bankrupt values and principles cops are just another product of who they serve or society as a whole.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

"You from Kentucky??"

No, Jay Jay. I read the story on Drudge. Seems that they are more interested in the money going west than the drugs moving east. (They get to keep the money, you know)

According to the article, they profile out-of-state travelers heading west. They stop a lot of truck drivers. The troopers ask to search the vehicle, then ask if the occupants or driver is carrying any large amounts of cash. Depending on the trooper, carrying a couple of grand can get your money confiscated as possible drug money.

The recent case in Florida where a Florida State Trooper pulled a local officer and initially held him at gun point for driving in excess of 100mph. (The officer was late for some appointment) Now there is a big brew ha ha as one agency is pitted against another. Its gotten nasty over a trooper doing her job.

We had a Virginia Deputy pull a caravan of NJ police officers who were headed back to NJ on I81 in Virginia who were running 'code three" with lights and sirens traveling 90 - 100 mph so they could get to NJ sooner. The NJ police chief and NJ police union sent scathing,threatening letters to the sheriff, and the deputy received death threats against himself and his family.

I have a really good friend who is a retired motor officer from NY. He has told me that he has gotten out of numerous traffic violations by showing his badge, and that he expects that sort of privilege from other officers even though he is retired.

How about the cop who pulled the man and his passengers and commenced immediately to curse him, and when the man informed the officer that he (the man) was armed and had a CCW, the officer went berserk and threatened to pull his weapon and kill the driver? The cop had an entire sheet of complaints, but was still working.

Or the cop in Washington state who arrested the woman in her own yard because she wouldn't stop videoing the officer during a traffic stop in front of her house. There are hundreds of reports and videos from around the country, and it doesn't stop. Just do a search on police abuse. You'll tire of watching and reading of current accounts. Something is wrong, folks!

I'm not bashing cops, especially those of you on here that gave a big portion of your life to really protecting and serving your fellow citizens. I thank you sincerely. But something has changed. Some adversarial attitude is soaking through the fabric of LE. I have seen it myself, and I worked with cops for over three decades. Hell, I taught ICS to police departments. The young ones are different. They are being taught it during basic and it only grows once on the street.


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## VUnder (Sep 1, 2011)

Yes, like the police arresting you for videotaping, then when it goes to court, there is not evidence, charges are dropped. Now, you try and destroy evidence and see what happens. 

About the money, the metal strips put off a signal. That is how numerous agencies show up to bust the same guy. Wrap your money in tin foil, multible layers. Every bit they confiscate is in plastic or paper, or in a box. They don't show the foil idea on TV, because it works.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

Jezcruzen said:


> "You from Kentucky??"
> 
> No, Jay Jay. I read the story on Drudge. Seems that they are more interested in the money going west than the drugs moving east. (They get to keep the money, you know)
> 
> ...


If what you are saying is true, then we will have a whole new generation of LEO's that are being groomed to be "robots" for "big brother". I certainly hope you are wrong because it would mean the end of true "protect and serve" law enforcement as we know it and the start of a "police state".

That is definitely not what us old school LEO's thought would ever happen.

If in fact the new generation are being groomed to stomp all over the Constitution and subject the citizens to terror tactics then we are in trouble indeed.

I find it hard to believe that there aren't enough LEO's left that have the ethics and moral fortitude to counter the "propaganda" and teach the young ones the correct and lawful way to conduct themselves.

Are we as a Nation honestly that far gone?

If a "police state" occurs will that be the spark that finally puts enough steel in the backbone of the citizens of this Country to unite, stand firm, and then stand up and say "OH HELL NO, THIS WILL NOT FLY"?
I for one don't know the answer to that, but I do know that I have the backbone needed to say no more and I know without a doubt that there are a great many others on this forum that have the steel in their backbones and will stand and say NO MORE.

I just hope that if that time ever comes we are not standing alone.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

Old Vet, everything I posted is true. 

My wife and I attended a weekly outdoor music concert in my hometown one Friday evening this past summer. Parking was at a premium. I turned into a lot and slipped into an empty parking spot. We got out and walked towards the entry point. A young police officer I didn't recognize strutted, (yes, he "strutted) over to me, chest all puffed out, arms spread like a gunslinger to inform me that I couldn't park where I did because it was private restaurant parking. "No problem", I said, and I went and moved the vehicle to another place near-by. Returning, I walked over to the cop to thank him so that I didn't get towed. As I approached, he puffed all up again. I reached out to pat his elbow as a friendly gesture and he jerked away from me and assumed some defensive stance. Stunned, I asked him what the problem was and that I certainly wasn't going to hurt him. "Its my training" he blurted out. I stood there dumbfounded for a second before shaking my head and walking away. This young idiot was obviously trained to view all citizens as a potential threat to him. Since these weekly concerts require security, the organizers hire off-duty cops. I paid more attention that evening to the demeanor of those cops who were there. All young. Arrogant. They just glared at people as people walked by, some in their subdued militaristic uniforms, weapon, taser, cuffs, etc. all plainly displayed. Once I noticed these things I found that it was actually intimidating. The older cops I know are nothing like that. In fact, I walk up, grab 'em, and give them a big ol hug. Not these young ones. I would probably be gang beat, tazed, cuffed, and hauled off to jail!


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Confication of firearms*

Confication of firearms in Kentucky during a disaster in by Kentucky statute illegal.

Registration of firearms by citizens is illeagle under US Codes.

I am no longer a Deputy Sheriff but I can tell you I would not participate nor allow another officer to conficate firearms from law abideing citizens during normal times or during a disaster.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

BillM said:


> Confication of firearms in Kentucky during a disaster in by Kentucky statute illegal.
> 
> Registration of firearms by citizens is illeagle under US Codes.
> 
> I am no longer a Deputy Sheriff but I can tell you I would not participate nor allow another officer to conficate firearms from law abideing citizens during normal times or during a disaster.


Thanks Bill now I know there were at least two of us on the job that went by the rules and "played fair". Good on ya.

Jez,

Altho I don't agree with the "strutting" and "puffing up", I will say that I can't blame the Officer for not letting you "put hands on". 
I don't know of a LEO that I worked with that would allow someone they didn't know to put their hands on them and yes that includes me. 
The only safety feature that comes with the job is our training and being able to use that big lump that sets on our shoulders.

No LEO that is worth a flip will allow anyone they don't know to be non agressive to get within their comfort zone, which for me was about three to four feet. A good Officer would more than likely take a step back and ask you to please back up and to keep your hands where he can see them. If you refused to comply and kept moving toward the Officer, then I can only say that such an idiotic move as that can get you seriously hurt, arrested or both. Now according to you he did not act in a professional manner when you attempted to touch him and I don't doubt your word on that, but please don't judge all LEO's by the actions of a few bad apples.

There isn't a person on this forum or anywhere else for that matter that can ever convince me that there are no more "good cops" out there doing the job that they were trained for and expected to do.

Like I said, in no way do I approve of the puffed up bully boy types and I honestly believe that they have no place in Law Enforcemrnt.

As far as I am concerned this horse has been ridden to death and you all know how I feel and I don't intend to change my feelings because I am absolutely positive that there are just as many good stories that could be told as there are bad ones. So as far as this thread goes, I am done.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

I don't think anyone who used that "lump" would have considered me to potentially be aggressive while in the company of my wife and wearing a golf shirt, shorts, and flip-plops on my way into an outdoor concert. Aggressive posturing is also not necessary as demonstrated in this instance by any officer in this sort of environment, and in this case I was outnumbered three to one, with me being the oldest and smallest.

I'm done as well.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*What about*



Jezcruzen said:


> "You from Kentucky??"
> 
> No, Jay Jay. I read the story on Drudge. Seems that they are more interested in the money going west than the drugs moving east. (They get to keep the money, you know)
> 
> ...


What about the thousands of car stops done dailey all over the USA where the officer just does his job? Those do not get the kind of press or attention that a few bad apples get.

What about the thousands of times an officer places his own life in danger to protect the public from violent felons?

There are a lot of Lions that prey on the Sheep. To be a Law Enforcment Officer, you can't be a Sheep! Neither can you be a Lion !

A good officer is a Sheep dog ! Did you ever see a good sheep dog work?

Sometimes he has to nip the sheep to make them move away from danger, but he will fight the Lion to the death for them !


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

Jezcruzen said:


> Old Vet, everything I posted is true.
> 
> My wife and I attended a weekly outdoor music concert in my hometown one Friday evening this past summer. Parking was at a premium. I turned into a lot and slipped into an empty parking spot. We got out and walked towards the entry point. A young police officer I didn't recognize strutted, (yes, he "strutted) over to me, chest all puffed out, arms spread like a gunslinger to inform me that I couldn't park where I did because it was private restaurant parking. "No problem", I said, and I went and moved the vehicle to another place near-by. Returning, I walked over to the cop to thank him so that I didn't get towed. As I approached, he puffed all up again. I reached out to pat his elbow as a friendly gesture and he jerked away from me and assumed some defensive stance. Stunned, I asked him what the problem was and that I certainly wasn't going to hurt him. "Its my training" he blurted out. I stood there dumbfounded for a second before shaking my head and walking away. This young idiot was obviously trained to view all citizens as a potential threat to him. Since these weekly concerts require security, the organizers hire off-duty cops. I paid more attention that evening to the demeanor of those cops who were there. All young. Arrogant. They just glared at people as people walked by, some in their subdued militaristic uniforms, weapon, taser, cuffs, etc. all plainly displayed. Once I noticed these things I found that it was actually intimidating. The older cops I know are nothing like that. In fact, I walk up, grab 'em, and give them a big ol hug. Not these young ones. I would probably be gang beat, tazed, cuffed, and hauled off to jail!


 Not defending cops but they do have a lot of enemies now.Some people hate them all .Plus many are killed by lunatics . Most cops are ok ,imo.it would be a dangerous place without them.
I think the higher up leo the more apt to do a citizen harm . I still can't believe what they id to those people in Waco or Ruby Ridge,yet known dangerous gangs and groups are right in their face. But then again not all of them are bad either.


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## partdeux (Aug 3, 2011)

One of the problems as I see it, the bad ones are protected, nobody holds bad police officers accountable. It's not until a youtube video is released do they get the attention they deserve. Also, there's an undercurrent rationalization that the ends justify the means.


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

BillM said:


> What about the thousands of car stops done dailey all over the USA where the officer just does his job? Those do not get the kind of press or attention that a few bad apples get.
> 
> What about the thousands of times an officer places his own life in danger to protect the public from violent felons?
> 
> ...


:melikey:

Very well put ...


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

partdeux said:


> One of the problems as I see it, the bad ones are protected, nobody holds bad police officers accountable.


Not always ...

Back a few years ago our Sheriff's Office was turned inside out, the top twelve or so are still doing time. So, sometimes the bad boys do get held accountable.

I know some very good cops ... but with that said, I know some ... I would not give the time of day.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

BillM said:


> What about the thousands of car stops done dailey all over the USA where the officer just does his job? Those do not get the kind of press or attention that a few bad apples get.
> 
> What about the thousands of times an officer places his own life in danger to protect the public from violent felons?
> 
> ...


Cute post. The thing is that there are many cops who are a credit to the force but those who are not can pretty much erase all of the good things done by the others. One wolf disguised as a sheep dog will make the sheep view all sheep dogs with suspicion, distrust and fear.

Rapists don't rape every woman they see. They may be model citizens 99% of the time. Yet that one percent makes them reprehensible in the eyes of every decent citizen on the planet. It's the same way with cops. They truly need to be above reproach 100% of the time.


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## kappydell (Nov 27, 2011)

i am a recently retired state trooper and so glad to be retired. the last 5 yrs things were starting to sour. there was more interest in 'activity' than in actual law enforcement. we were wearing BDUs and training in military tactics and being trained on M-16s, which was interesting enough, but bothered me. i signed up to be a citizen-officer, not a soldier. others also felt uneasy.
when i joined, the emphasis was on treating folks like human beings, and enforcing the law, not using it to beat people over the head with. when i retired it was on how high you could get your 'contact' numbers. the state passed a law banning quotas, but the bean-counters that had not been in the field in years (except maybe for photo ops) simply renamed them something else and pressed even harder, making the temptation to take the 'cheap pinches' to get the sgt off your back greater and greater. i retired as soon as i could and was glad to go. i loved the work, i loved the action, but i did NOT love the new emphasis on treating folks like numbers!


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

BillM said:


> What about the thousands of car stops done dailey all over the USA where the officer just does his job? Those do not get the kind of press or attention that a few bad apples get.
> 
> What about the thousands of times an officer places his own life in danger to protect the public from violent felons?
> 
> ...


To paraphrase your first sentence - What about the thousands of drunks who drive and make it home safely without having a crash and/or killing someone on the highway? Those don't get the kind of attention the way the drunk drivers who kill other motorists do.

Same logic, BillM.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

Well I guess you can call me a liar, because I said I was done with this one, but I honestly just can't let some things go so I just have one last thing to say and that is:
If some of you folks that don't like or don't trust the current LEO's get in a bind like being robbed, beaten, raped, shot, stabbed, or any number of "unkind" acts, then don't scream for the cops that some of you seem to hate so much to come save you. Call your friends, neighbors, and relatives and see if they will willingly put their asses on the line for you.
If this post pisses anyone off, well I will just say, get over it because I really don't care. What I really do care about is the total bashing of (it seems) all Law Enforcement.
Now that I have finally said how i honestly feel, I will bow out and let the bashing continue if that is what you want to do. 

Kappydell,

I applaud and thank you for your service to your community. I have no doubt that your career in LE was honorable and that you truly protected and served. Good on ya.


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

Well ... alright then ...

Cops being put in with drunk drivers and rapists ... What can one say.

I'll will not bring this post up to my son in law (a cop) nor will I say a thing to my daughter ... when she calls, scared and crying because something is going down in the area. (And she has a normal and a very real fear of what can happen to her husband.) 

All I can say is if you don't like the system, then "change it". Sign up and become a "Good cop" ~ Stand a post!!! 

I now feel a need to go and split some firewood ... for some odd reason ... 

So ... I'll bow out also and get on the wood, should get a lot done ...


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

I said I was going to stop, too, and I am. This is it.

Regardless of the board that I am on, every time someone posts about cops it always end the same way. Those who are cops, were cops, or have family members who are cops are on one side, and most (not all) everyone else is on the other. The cop side is offended, and the other side is accused of "bashing".

Shouldn't it be obvious that SOMETHING IS GOING ON in order for so many to have a negative impression?

Andi, you need to read my post again once you finish chopping wood. I DID NOT equate cops with drunks! I DID make a point about Bill's logic... thats it. I could have used many examples in an attempt to get my point across. I chose that one for no particular reason.

Oldvet - I have enjoyed your company on here and hope to continue doing so. I understand your frustration over how some of of feel on this issue, and its obvious that you are proud of your service, and you should be. But I would like to clear one thing up - if a crime is committed against my person, the damage is done BEFORE any LEO arrives. I don't, nor have I ever, depended on any LEO to protect me or my family. You know it doesn't work that way. 

For someone else (can't remember who) that said those of us who were not exactly enamored with current LE should ourselves "stand a post", I have this to say. I have stood a post, mister, since I was 19 years old. I'm now 60! Enough of THAT talk!

Now I hope this is over. It IS over for me. Now lets all be friends.:kiss:


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## kappydell (Nov 27, 2011)

thanks oldvet for the kind words. i am proud that even folks i arrested have come up to me since and told me that i treated them right; that the folks in the county thought of me as one of 'the good guys' . i was always gettin in hot water for taking the time to talk to folks and explaining what was going on so they had the option of calming down and cooperating, rather than getting their backs up (or getting afraid) and fighting with LE folks. one of my most interesting moments was when a certified, fer-real gang-banger said that as a professional criminal he would rather be arrested by me or one of my troop because he knew we would be professional about it rather than taking the arrest 'personal'. He felt that if he was 'professional' as a bad guy and submitted to arrest without fighting, he should be treated better than a piece of you-know-what. I thought he was pulling my chain, but after he explained what he had experienced from other depts I told him that as one 'pro' to another, it was praise indeed. And jezcruisin, Im not going to complain bout you stating the obvious. If someone is a jerk, or a sociopath for that matter, or has those tendencies, the badge really brings it out. I wish that the higher ups would root those folks out, rather than rewarding them by promoting due to their inevitably high 'production rates'. Oh well, I guess that is why I remained a happy-go-lucky-slick-sleeved sheepdog all those years, with no regrets about retiring. I am worried about the 'new breed' and what they could morph into suddenly.


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

Okay, I didn't read all of the responses, as I feel like they will just piss me off.

As a federal LEO, the letter from the original post is largely ignorant and almost entirely offensive. I have addressed a lot of those claims in other threads and will not rehash old arguments. I largely agree with OldVet's view on the matter.

Now, from a federal standpoint, my perspective may be a bit different from some of the local guys. I view my job as primarily safeguarding this country and it's people. We don't generally worry about the little stuff like repair tickets and such, unless it presents a clear hazard to the safety of others.

This is a fairly thank-less job. Depending upon the circumstances, an officer is generally met with annoyance, irritation, anger, fear, hate, or rarely, gratitude. I can tell you that in the lawful execution of my duties, it is rarely gratitude. However, since we tend to deal more with counter-terrorism than failure to signal before a turn, if I have put someone in cuffs, there is a damned good reason for it. 

It may not be on the side of the vehicles anymore, but the job is still to serve and protect. Tactics may have adapted to the times, but the vast majority (everyone that I know) of cops put on a badge to protect people. There aren't any "bad" cops in my agency, because they are not tolerated and don't keep their badges very long. There may be a few slackers who are near retirement and don't want to work very hard, but they are largely kept away from the action.


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

Jezcruzen, you are correct; these always wind up as "us versus them", for some reason. I have my theories on that.

I am sorry that some people have had bad experiences with law enforcement. However, they should not let one or two bad experiences sour their opinion of the group as a whole. That is no different than saying, "well a (insert race here) person stole my wallet, so all (same race) people are thieves." People don't like it when they think officers are profiling, so why do they do the same to officers?


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## horseman09 (Mar 2, 2010)

Turtle said:


> People don't like it when they think officers are profiling, so why do they do the same to officers?


***********

Why? Because overwhelmingly, police officers are themselves blantant law breakers. As I have related on many posts on this forum, just watch them drive. For that matter, listen to them talk among themselves at a bar. By far, the majority will never bust a fellow cop nor will they be busted *and they brag about it * even to us civilians. That very thing happened at my kitchen table just a few months ago. Arrogance and elitism on public display. It's their way of lettng us know that they are of the privileged class.

Question to the LEOs on this forum: Have you ever given a pass to a fellow cop because he is a cop? Have you ever accepted special treatment because you are a cop or have you ever overlooked such things with other officers rather than reporting it?

If you can honestly answer "no" to both, you have my sincere respect.


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## kbjuan95560 (Oct 17, 2011)

Humboldt county war on the poor
Discrimination due to a Person’s 

Social-Economic status

is a HATE CRIME.



All persons are Entitled to Equal Protection Under the Law regardless of their Social- Economic Status. All acts of Violence including threats, assaults, thefts, and homicide must be treated without discrimination by law enforcement.



Taking a person’s Property is Theft.



Taking Persons’ Property -- tents, tarps, clothes, boots, sleeping bags, cooking utensils, food, campstoves, lanterns, and such

Needed for Survival is Endangering their Health and Threatening their Right to Life

Whether committed by an Individual or Government.



For 20 years since the loss of timber and fishing jobs Humboldt County has documented more than 2,000 homeless persons, yet within Humboldt County less than 200 shelters beds exist serving <10% of those needing a place to be.



If you lost your home today where would you stay tonight? For how long? Due to global economic collapse and natural disasters millions have joined the ranks of the homeless. Criminalizing homelessness costs everyone far more than subsidizing affordable housing.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

Turtle

"People don't like it when they think officers are profiling, so why do they do the same to officers? "

I have no problem with profiling, it is an effective way to catch bad guys. I only have a problem with the LEO's when they wont let it go when they find that they are wrong and dig and dig and dig to find something.

I feel the way laws are set up today is to make all people guilty of something.
That way the Law Enforcement Officers only have to find the smallest thing then hold that over you go get what they want.


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

Davarm said:


> I only have a problem with the LEO's when they wont let it go when they find that they are wrong and dig and dig and dig to find something.


Many years ago before I met her, DW was working at a club. She left around 3:00am to go home. She was about 6 blocks from the club when she saw the flashing lights. She pulled over and was asked if she was drinking. She said no, I was working. That wasn't what the cop wanted to hear. He asked her to touch her nose then walk the line, which she did with no problem. Then she was asked to take the breathalyzer test which came back negative. Now this guy is really pissed because he KNEW she was drinking even though she wasn't. He took her in to the station and gave her another breath test. Negative again. Next, he took her to the ER at the local hospital to get a blood test done. The township didn't have a contract with the hospital so the nurse ask him who was going to pay for it. He told her B..(DW) was. She said " No I am not. If you want a blood test, you pay for it". The nurse looked at him for confirmation and he turned and walked away... but not too far. He ended up taking her back to the station and charging her with parking in a dangerous place when he pulled her over.

Now on the other side of the coin, about 15 years ago, I was pulled over about a mile from home. I had no idea why. Turns out I had no tail lights on the truck I was driving. The cop, knowing I was close to home from my license, asked me if the 4-ways worked. I flipped them on and he told me to be careful and get right home. Not even a written warning.

Another time, just a couple years ago, I had a license plate light out and got an $85 fine for it. Go figure.

So I've had both positive and negative experience. I believe there is a mentality that takes over *some* people when they put the uniform on.


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## partdeux (Aug 3, 2011)

Uncle Joe,

It is well worth every person's time to watch a couple of videos. I can look them up later, but search youtube for do not talk to police. One set of videos is a scenario with some kids getting pulled over. the other far more important one is a law professor and a police detective talking to a law class. It's about 45 minutes and worth every second.

WRT DW, she would have asked, am I being detained or am I free to go? If she was being detained, then it should have been what is your reasonably articulatable suspicion?


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## Davo45 (Apr 29, 2011)

partdeux said:


> Uncle Joe,
> 
> It is well worth every person's time to watch a couple of videos. I can look them up later, but search youtube for do not talk to police. One set of videos is a scenario with some kids getting pulled over. the other far more important one is a law professor and a police detective talking to a law class. It's about 45 minutes and worth every second.
> 
> WRT DW, she would have asked, am I being detained or am I free to go? If she was being detained, then it should have been what is your reasonably articulatable suspicion?


I've seen that video and can only agree with about 20% of it, particularly when talking about anyone whose shot someone in self-defense in or out of one's home. Unless the victim reports that they were assaulted, robbed, etc. first that caused them to fear for their life the police will only be investigating one crime, namely homicide if the "shooting victim" died as a result of being shot.

To hear this guy talk the police in this country are aggressively looking to arrest as many people as possible regardless of the circumstances and in my 20 years experience this is simply not the case. My first chief told me, "Son, I've been in this business for a long time and am here to tell you, you'll go a lot further looking for a way to NOT take someone to jail then always looking for a way TO put someone in jail." As another chief told me, "Some people will just about beg you to take them to jail and you've been doing this long enough to know which ones, other than them I don't expect to see you making a lot of cases."

I don't know about other states, but in Alabama a driver who's given a citation for an equipment violation have 48 hours to get it fixed and checked by a LEO then get their copy to the court before the court date and the case is dismissed without cost.

I've known a few officers who waited down the road within sight of bars and stopped any vehicles they saw pulling out, but I've never seen one arrest anyone who wasn't impaired, or appeared to be in the case of some drivers who've been told by their attorneys (or seen videos like the one you referred to) and refused to say anything or do any roadside test. Sometimes that works in keeping them from being convicted of DUI and sometimes it doesn't. It all depends on the officer's evidence (video, etc.) and how well they articulated why they made the arrest in the first place. Officers who fail to document their evidence usually lose in court while those who documented their cases well win.

I've let other officers go for speeding, but then I've let even more civilians go with a warning IF I stopped them at all, I flash my blue lights at far more speeders than I stop. As long as they slow down I don't stop them, but if they didn't slow down I stop and cite them. I've seen several officers around central Alabama arrested for DUI and DV, including one deputy federal marshal.

Maybe it's because I've policed small towns most of my career, but most people don't act "scared" of the police, many kids will run up to my patrol car to say hello and look inside at the "cool police stuff", including many from the housing projects. I often have people tell me of suspicious activity that they saw.

Of course there are a few people who act nervous around the police, usually because they, 1. have a warrant (or THINK they do), 2. are driving with a suspended or revoked driver's license, no insurance, etc. In short, there's a REASON that they're nervous and it has nothing to do with them being "scared" of the police, rather because they know they're doing something or have done something wrong.

An even smaller number of people just hate the police, because they believe they are above the law and resent the police depriving them of their chosen professions, burglary, theft, drug dealing, etc. The only people I've ever seen who acted "scared" of the police were small children because their idiotic mothers point us out and say, "If you misbehave he'll put you in jail!" 
I've chastised several out over the years and consoled their child(ren) telling them that we don't put children in jail and don't know why their mother told them that.

I had a rather intemperate youth and did several things I'm not proud of, including driving impaired more times that I can count. I deserved to get caught, arrested and convicted each and every one of those times. If I had have been it would have been MY OWN FAULT and not the officer's. I've always tried to treat others with the same respect that I expect to be treated with. I have had very few problems with MOST of the people I've arrested, cited, etc. I've had more than a few people I've arrested shake my hand after court and thank me for treating them with respect, even when they believe they didn't serve it.


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## partdeux (Aug 3, 2011)

It's a running mouth that can inadvertently provide police with an insurmountable defense. Look at Michael Jackson's Dr. He thought he was smarter than the police, who had no idea how he died. Had he shut up and not said a F* thing, it would have been a lot more difficult to convict him. My own daughter did something really stupid when her big bad self decided to talk to the police and earned herself a misdemeanor minor in possession ticket. Had she kept her F* mouth shut, she would have not gotten the MIP ticket. I'll go with the advice of the attorney and police Lt to let my attorney do the talking!

Remember, police do not have to tell the truth to you and they are trained to ask you questions, including entrapment questions. 

DAVO, I'm glad your busted perps appreciate your professionalism, and I'd bet you're at the top of your field... but unfortunately some of your peer group is not as professional. When I listen to my town's Chief complain his officers are violating state law and he "can't control them". Or a Sgt in the same dept single handily decide that all the places that serve alcohol are going to be shut down. Or my fav, citizens should not be permitted to own firearms... I'll take my chances keeping my big mouth shut.


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## horseman09 (Mar 2, 2010)

Davo, you seem like a straightup guy and the sort of LEO who deserves respect.

You said, "I've let other officers go for speeding, but then I've let even more civilians go with a warning IF I stopped them at all, I flash my blue lights at far more speeders than I stop. " That's fair enough, but *did you ever let a cop off the hook because he is a cop? * That is where the intense resentment comes from from most of us civilians. LEOs should not be above the law -- they should exemplify lawfulness by setting a good example.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Retired Deputy*

I am a retired Deputy sheriff.

About everyone I ever put in jail talked their way into jail.

If you are involved in a self defence situation, you should tell the officer you were defending yourself and decline to answer further questions until you have consulted an Aty.

If you are a suspect in a criminal investigation, you need the advise of an Aty.before you talk to the police.

Even giving the police an alliby can get you charged with a crime when simpley declining to speak to them without an Aty. would prevent your being charged.

That is what I would do and I still know most of the officers personally in my area.

Never talk to a federal officer without a lawyer in a criminal investigation !


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## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

I watched a video that urged and advised all people; DO NOT EVER TALK TO A POLICEMAN.

It was made by an attorney; he was funny and said even if you are the complaintant, they can get you to say things that will get you in trouble.

In Ky, the DOTs are on every truckers a**, so if you're in ky, they are out for revenue..couldn't find dh with any violations so made him go to court because he doesn't have an INTERSTATE LICENSE #...uh, dh can't drive over state line--he only has one eye...so, he doesn't need an INTER--just an INTRASTATE and it needs no Motor Carrier # for an intrastate.
In trucker's terms, they are a**holes.

I'm a female, and I will not open my door for them---I WILL hand my license/reg. through the window if ever asked though.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

Turtle, BillM, Davo, and any other LEO's on this forum.

I was also in LE, both on the street and as a Detention officer and I applaud you for your service to your community, State and Country.

LEO's are not some super human specimens bred and trained to be perfect little robots that treat everyone exactly the same with no exceptions and go about their duties with no feelings or emotions.

We are human just like anyone else and because we choose to take up a profession that entails dealing with some of the worst types of people in this country and because of that we try not to show much if any emotion when we are sizing up the people and the situation we are dealing with, we are labled as A--holes at best when we are dealing with the "good law abiding folks" that we may pull over from time to time. 

Do we ever have a bad day just like everyone else? yep. 
Do we ever get pissed at someone we are trying to deal fairly with? Yep.
In other words folks LEO's are just as human as anyone else with all of the same strengths and weakness's.
Do we ever give fellow LEO's a pass? Yep.
Do we ever give citizens that same pass? Yep.

Now if the ones of you on this forum that apparently have much disdain for local Law Enforcement are ever in need of assistance from your Local Law enforcement, what will your attitude toward them be? 

Folks there are good and bad in every type of environment that you can name, and as was said earlier that to blame everyone for the actions of just a few is dead wrong.

I spent 20yrs in the Military that included a combat tour in Vietnam where I had to take some lives, so does that fact make me a A--hole or a "killer", or just another G.I. put in a position where I had no choice but do what i did.

Folks I could go on and on and more than likely never change some folk's mind about LEO's or anything else for that matter, it's just that I don't like undeserved lables hung on me because of the job that I was in even tho I did that job as fairly as I knew how being the imperfect human that i am.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

Yes, I understand that the LEO's have bad days and are only human like the rest of us, but they have the power of life and death over the many of us. They also have the ability and means to destroy our lives in a number of ways. 

I have the highest regard for my local LEO's and support them fully, not to be said for some areas I have been to/lived in.....My point being that with the authority and power they have over our lives, they must be held to a higher standard, more closely scrutenized and more closely watched than the average citizen.

It may be a character flaw but in my book all(not only LEO's) deserve to be questioned/doubted until they prove trustworthy.


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## pawpaw (Dec 21, 2011)

Another ex-LEO here...
The face of law enforcement HAS changed over the past 15 years. In the early 90's, I was the field training officer every time we hired a new cop. 
One such troop was riding with me early on a Friday evening when we pulled over a 21 year old boy for having no tail lights. My troop freaked out because I simply let the boy go about his business after a warning. He too, clearly saw the marijuana "roach" in the boy's ashtray. I had just "short-circuited" all his academy training; he was about to blow an o-ring or something until I calmly explained:
" Yeah, we could've made the arrest. We knew he was already on probation for marijuana possession, anyway. But what you never put together is that he had groceries & diapers in the back seat, and was on his way HOME after work on a Friday night-not to a bar, not to a liquor store. So I simply stopped & asked myself this simple question: SHOULD I make the arrest? We'd have impounded his family's car, diapers and all, spoiled the groceries, and he'd likely have trouble posting bail because he probably spent a lot of his paycheck in the grocery store. Then there's the sentencing...So, maybe I'll destroy his life, all because he forgot to eat that pitiful "roach" in the ashtray. Naw, I'll wait for an arrest with a little more self-satisfaction. Let's go to Waffle House - I'm hungry."
I got a call recently from the Chief of Police of one of the largest cities in Florida. It was my troop from that day, and we'd kept loosely in touch through the years. He said he wanted to thank me; that he's trained HIS troops that way ever since, and it has served him well. He also privately admits that we'll never see those days again; that external pressures exist promoting the 'new community policing' practices, and he could not go into much detail about it...


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Discression*



pawpaw said:


> Another ex-LEO here...
> The face of law enforcement HAS changed over the past 15 years. In the early 90's, I was the field training officer every time we hired a new cop.
> One such troop was riding with me early on a Friday evening when we pulled over a 21 year old boy for having no tail lights. My troop freaked out because I simply let the boy go about his business after a warning. He too, clearly saw the marijuana "roach" in the boy's ashtray. I had just "short-circuited" all his academy training; he was about to blow an o-ring or something until I calmly explained:
> " Yeah, we could've made the arrest. We knew he was already on probation for marijuana possession, anyway. But what you never put together is that he had groceries & diapers in the back seat, and was on his way HOME after work on a Friday night-not to a bar, not to a liquor store. So I simply stopped & asked myself this simple question: SHOULD I make the arrest? We'd have impounded his family's car, diapers and all, spoiled the groceries, and he'd likely have trouble posting bail because he probably spent a lot of his paycheck in the grocery store. Then there's the sentencing...So, maybe I'll destroy his life, all because he forgot to eat that pitiful "roach" in the ashtray. Naw, I'll wait for an arrest with a little more self-satisfaction. Let's go to Waffle House - I'm hungry."
> I got a call recently from the Chief of Police of one of the largest cities in Florida. It was my troop from that day, and we'd kept loosely in touch through the years. He said he wanted to thank me; that he's trained HIS troops that way ever since, and it has served him well. He also privately admits that we'll never see those days again; that external pressures exist promoting the 'new community policing' practices, and he could not go into much detail about it...


An excellent example of discression. The other consideration in makeing or not makeing an arrest is , is this arrest worth taking my unit out of service for two to three hours while I transport and book the suspect?

There could be a real emergency !

Is this a convictable offence ? Will the County aty prosicute this and will a jury convict?

This is what I was taught and later taught other officers. "If the case is borderline, let him go".

If he is really a criminal, he will do it again !


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## partdeux (Aug 3, 2011)

pawpaw,

I was at the high school one day, our school resource officer was standing about 10' from me and had to smell the same burning weed I smelled  She didn't do anything, and I wondered why, when the same city sits and nails speeders all day long. In fact, and this is without exaggeration, 50% of the police activity (published in the local rag), is traffic enforcement.


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## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

I respect any man or woman who chooses LE as a profession, because it's dangerous. Having said that, I think there are a lot of abuses. I dated a cop many years ago. He drove 80 in a 60 all day, every day off duty or not. This guy was in ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION?? It scared the crap out of me and when I said something about it, he chuckled and said "I'll never get pulled over." I'm sorry, but he was putting a lot of people in danger.
I've also (just recently) had a cop tell me that as much as an air freshener hanging from my rear view mirror is enough 'probable cause' to search my vehicle while pulled over for a traffic violation. I said he'd need a warrant. He said "nope, I'll just make you sit there until my K-9 unit shows up and sniffs it out". I said "Sniffs what out?" He said "Whatever". Really? I get it that the dogs are trained to smell drugs, but how do I know they're not trained to sniff out lots of other things? 
I don't want to be suspicious, and it's a bad feeling to think that anybody would ever have a reason to, but the few have spoiled it for the many.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

JayJay said:


> I watched a video that urged and advised all people; DO NOT EVER TALK TO A POLICEMAN.


Saw the same or like video, when they are striking up a conversation, they are not being sociable it is a means of fishing for info. Its amazing what info people will pass off to a complete total stranger.

When you "clam up" it may tend to pi** the LEO's off, they probobly are not accustomed to law abiding citizens not giving cause for abuse.

It is a shame it has to be that way but you have to look out for your loved ones and yourself first and not depend on a stranger in uniform to do it for you, they often have their own agenda.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

After I retired, I was hired by the US government as a federal security officer. Everyday, I talked with local LEO's and State Troopers. I would also converse with the local FBI, DOJ, and when they would come to town, I would have conversations with the Secret Service, and the CIA. And if anyone was woundering the federal government has several more agencies that have LEO's employed.

Of all these agencies the local LEO's were the hardest to deal with, they were very stiff in their approach to law enforcement. All the other agencies were easy to work with.

In my opinion, the best way to handle talking to local police is to be as honest as possible, but only answer the questions that they ask you. Do not volunteer information!

Just as a side note, I met no local LEO's that approved of carry permits. The State Patrol was fine with carry permits.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*As a Former*

As a former local LEO, I have two comments.

1. I never met a federal LEO that wanted to help on an investigation unless they could take it over.

2. I don't know a single Local LEO that I ever dealt with that was opposed to our CCWD licenseing in KY.


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

partdeux said:


> pawpaw,
> 
> I was at the high school one day, our school resource officer was standing about 10' from me and had to smell the same burning weed I smelled  She didn't do anything, and I wondered why, when the same city sits and nails speeders all day long. In fact, and this is without exaggeration, 50% of the police activity (published in the local rag), is traffic enforcement.


I would have to consider why is bringing in that pot for these kids to smoke? Also a pot smoker[ I can't stand the stuff,it made my mouth dry and slowed me down too much] is not as dangerous as some speed demon in a car,even worse in a huge truck.

I would scair the kid though.Traffics violators kill more people and kids than any other crime.


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## RedWolfs (Jun 4, 2013)

Only fools believe that they could survive without police. Hats off to the great service gentlemen.


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## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

I'm a fool.


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## mtexplorer (Dec 14, 2012)

HozayBuck said:


> *
> 
> All in all.. I hope most LEO's will remember their Oath of office but their leaders don't and our national leaders don't so.. there ain't much hope I guess....sadly*


I took that oath. I still believe in it. I left the LEO world because I believed in that oath and chose not to stay in a profession that I saw crumbling under corruption with individuals seeking power and no longer serving the public.

The misuse of power by Sheriff's, Undersheriff's and other officers is what drove me away from this profession.

I refused to just stand by and watch what was happening so I walked away from that world. I see it getting worse every day, it's a sad state of affairs to see it happening in this great country and it doesn't look like it's ever going to stop

Montana


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

swjohnsey said:


> I'm a fool.


I thought you were banned. So the first thing you do when you come back is try to make people mad? I think letting you back was a mistake.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

swjohnsey said:


> I'm a fool.


I would have been charitable and said retarded.a fool makes a conscious decision to be stupid.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

swjohnsey said:


> I'm a fool.


I think that is something we all agree on.

In regards to people being able to survive without police, people did so for at least 100 000 years, so...

Would life be the same, NO.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

> In regards to people being able to survive without police, people did so for at least 100 000 years, so...


While policing in the modern sense is a relatively new concept, there has always been a system of regulation in place. Before "police" it was sometimes tyrannical military rule and civil brutality by those under the employee of the rich and powerful that kept things "in line". Modern policing is like a fresh slice of peach pie compared to those years.


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## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

Police are there to make a report and clean up the mess. Things are much better today with police wearing body armor and ski masks. What's the sayin', "When seconds count the police are only minutes away?"


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## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

BillS said:


> I thought you were banned. So the first thing you do when you come back is try to make people mad? I think letting you back was a mistake.


I don't get it. How does sayin' "I'm a fool" make folks mad?


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Sentry18, the job of "policing" has always existed, however having individuals that filled that role as a significant part of their time (whether it be police, soldiers, etc.) has only been around for 10 000 years or so. Prior to that "policing" was done by everyone. Many societies never developed "police" such as native Americans, inuit, and many others.
Division of labour has brought us a lot of benefits with some drawbacks but you are correct in that the chances of going to a society without "police" (most likely worse than today if tshtf), is much more likely than moving to a society where policing is a joint responsibility. 
In the same way we are unlikely to ever move away from agriculture for example, despite the fact that we survived for just as long without that paradigm.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

I would refer those who think they will be better off without police to the scene from "Gone with the wind" where Clark Gable says, "There goes the Confederate army and with it the last of vestige of civilization".

If you think it is bad with the police wait until they are gone!


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Hopefully we are not basing our society on movies, but if we are I have some ideas:hmmm:
There are many examples of societies that do well without police, there are many more with examples of "police" that are MUCH worse than we have in developed nations today.


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## Tex (Oct 31, 2008)

While I don't have a desire to have police around me in my personal business, if a loved one was kidnapped or harmed, I'd want someone with resources and expertice investigating.


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## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

Don't want the police around? Fine with me. Most people here could take care of themselves. Its the other %98 that would drive everyone batty. Besides with no 911 who would you call when mcdonalds screws up your order??


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

The police are not obligated or equipped to protect you. 

It is your obligation to protect your self.

The police are there to provide enforcement of the law and investigate crimes once they are committed.

When the enforcement and investigation stops, you will almost be guaranteed the opportunity to protect yourself on a daily basis .

The bad guys will not be afraid of you . 

The fact that they may get killed doesn't enter into their thinking when they want what you have.


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## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

I know a bunch of criminals types and all of them are afraid of dying. They might not be afraid of me but they pretend to be.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

a 12 gauge OO snake eyes can make a 98 pound granny fearsome as Rambo if she has the will to use it.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Not what you think*



swjohnsey said:


> I know a bunch of criminals types and all of them are afraid of dying. They might not be afraid of me but they pretend to be.


Criminals are not the stereotypical cowards you think they are so I hope you are the Rambo you think you are !


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## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

Criminal are about like the rest of us.


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## GreenMan (Jun 26, 2013)

You have to be smart to survive without police. So I believe everyone couldn’t do so..


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## Orly51 (Jan 17, 2013)

Still serving and protecting for 13 years now. Many good points of view and sincere personal stories have been expressed here. I'll take 'em all to heart when I gear up for duty. I've taken my oath seriously thus-far to uphold and uphold the constitution to the very best of my ability so help me God. 

While still a country of laws we enforce them all; criminal, local and traffic. As a field training officer I tell my recruits to respect the people they come across with dignity and professionalism. 

After many years I still believe most people out there are law abiding and respectable citizens. For this reason I make an effort everyday to shake hands and/or share a smile as I patrol. I tell people that behind this vest still beats a human heart. My 2¢... Take care and keep the conversation going.


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## tc556guy (Apr 28, 2011)

Orly51 said:


> After many years I still believe most people out there are law abiding and respectable citizens..


1% of the population ruins it for the other 99 %
That's simple reality.


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## ras1219como (Jan 15, 2013)

As a LEO I can honestly say I have never witnessed another officer break the law or commit any ethical violations. I wouldn't tolerate it if I had witnessed it. I can truly say I have never been given a "break" because I'm a cop (I haven't been stopped since I was 18 years old and I do my best to obey all traffic laws). 

I do my best to be professional, polite, and courteous to all citizens that I have contact with. I'm fair with people and I try to be understanding. Unfortunately citizens sometimes don't extend me the same courtesy. Many people who have this "bad taste" for law enforcement are immediately rude, hateful, and angry regardless of my level of professionalism. It is difficult for officers to repeatedly endure a barrage of insults and hateful speech for years on end without becoming slightly disillusioned (hence us vs. them). 

I myself have experienced the rude police officer and I know how irritating it can be. But please think about this LEOs are human beings with emotions. Sometimes we have bad days and aren't always as polite as we should be, sometimes we see things we don't want to have to see and it effects our demeanor, sometimes (most of the time) we are running on burnt black coffee and a couple hours of sleep. We are humans that make mistakes like everyone else. So if you get pulled over or otherwise come in contact with us try to remember this, don't let the bad apples color your judgement of all of us. We aren't all bad...


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Do you really want to reopen this thread?


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## ras1219como (Jan 15, 2013)

I wasn't aware that the thread was closed....I was just offering my opinion and statement, same as everyone else.


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## airdrop (Jan 6, 2012)

I've rubbed elbows with some LEO's and for some there is always a under current of street justise in them. Not all but some. It's funny I had heard this form some guys that when they got thier Concealed carry that they were more likely not to get a ticket, an I experianced it my self later. I wonder lol you think they don't want to screw with the guy that might one day stop and save thier butts along the road when a car load of jerks wants to kick some badge.


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## tc556guy (Apr 28, 2011)

ras1219como said:


> I wasn't aware that the thread was closed....I was just offering my opinion and statement, same as everyone else.


I think that was directed at me
I don't see an issue with contributing to older threads that we weren't part of during it's original run.
These are on-going conversations and I'd rather see one thread that runs to 100 pages than ten threads with minimal discussion that fade away quickly


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

airdrop said:


> I've rubbed elbows with some LEO's and for some there is always a under current of street justice in them. Not all but some.


It seems there are very few.



airdrop said:


> It's funny I had heard this form some guys that when they got their Concealed carry that they were more likely not to get a ticket, an I experienced it my self later. .


Texas cops seem to scrutinize further.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

tc556guy said:


> I think that was directed at me
> I don't see an issue with contributing to older threads that we weren't part of during it's original run.
> These are on-going conversations and I'd rather see one thread that runs to 100 pages than ten threads with minimal discussion that fade away quickly


It wasn't really directed at all. The thread had not had a post in over 6 months. If you all want to resume this discussion that is fine. We've had a lot of discussion in other threads about the quality of the police around the country, so this thread is as good as any place to continue if you are up for it.

I suggest rereading the OP as it was written several years ago.

My personal experience with LEOs has been so bad that if I post something LEOs start whining about "cop bashing" or something similar. I'm sort of surprised to see anyone wanting to reengage on the topic.

As a result, I'll toss in a book recommendation. "The Rise of the Warrior Cop" by Radley Balko. I think it is worth a read no matter which side of the debate you're on and it gives a good historical perspective on how we got here.


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## Outpost (Nov 26, 2012)

At the risk of opening old misunderstandings. I have several family members who were cops (on a variety of levels) and have quite a few friends in the profession. Not all of the friends and acquaintances have been local to here in NH. I've known cops from Texas, California, Massachusetts (my uncle was a cop there), one or two right here in NH, and even one from Chicago. One of my old girlfriends was a cop and my best buddy is a retired "Statie". Hell, my mother-in-law is a former Chief..... (and in the interests of "full-disclosure" I have to admit that I'm one of those strange guys that actually loves his mother-in-law!)

(by the way, I use the word "Cop" as a generalization, and I mean no disrespect by its use. Some of the folks referenced above were at a Federal level, some local....)

Over the years they've told me of a number of things they've seen change. It varies from place to place, and from agency to agency, but there's an undercurrent of "pre-dispositioning", if you will, that seems to seep down from certain higher levels. They tell me that it's gotten worse over the years. In many ways, (and again, some areas are more susceptible than others) there's an air of division. It's almost as though there was some great force working to instill fear of each other between cops and the general public.

There's an absolute need for any LEO to be cautious when dealing with someone they don't know, and certainly sometimes with someone the do, but there is a *reasonable* fear, and then there's outright bigotry.

The general public is also being "pre-dispositioned", I believe. The contemporary "Cop Shows" don't do *anybody* justice. They just don't give much of a background before showing the "action". On the flip side, for example, if I didn't know any better, I'd think Alaska was populated by nothing but poachers, drunks, and wife-beaters.....

I've seen cops retire and get replaced by young bulls who seemed to think they were bullet-proof, and acted accordingly. They're also the ones that seem to succumb to the "us vs. them" mentality the easiest.

The point is, I suppose, is that our society is, in fact, in the process of becoming sharply polarized along certain lines. In some ways, it could ultimately be a healthy thing. We'll find out who loves freedom, and who want's to take it away; who's wiling to die for it, and who's willing to kill to crush it. Then, and only then, will the problem have a resolution. I don't know which will win, but *there will be resolution.*

In the mean-time, we *all* must decide where we stand; what we are willing to do and unwilling to do; what we are willing to tolerate, and what we won't; whether we're motivated by what's right, or by what we can get away with.

Slowly, (and some places slower than others) but surely it is happening. We can only fix it by facing it. We may actually be facing a slow, methodical "purge" at some point, if not already. It's happened before and it *is* happening again. To paraphrase, failing to learn from history condemns one to repeat it.

God Help us all....

'blessed are the peace-makers, for they shall be called the Children of God...'

-Peace to all


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

When NY cops beat up an 84 year old man for jaywalking, there is a huge problem that cops are unwilling to address.


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## tc556guy (Apr 28, 2011)

Geek999 said:


> As a result, I'll toss in a book recommendation. "The Rise of the Warrior Cop" by Radley Balko. I think it is worth a read no matter which side of the debate you're on and it gives a good historical perspective on how we got here.


Balko is not a good source at all.
I'm not familiar with your personal issues with LE, but if those issues extend over multiple officers over time I would suggest that the problem is not them but you, as you are the common denominator


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

tc556guy said:


> Balko is not a good source at all.
> I'm not familiar with your personal issues with LE, but if those issues extend over multiple officers over time I would suggest that the problem is not them but you, as you are the common denominator


I would suggest that the officers involved were always in control in any incident involving myself. There is no right to carry here, and I am not a large or intimidating guy. I am no more of a threat than that 84 yo man beaten up for jaywalking. Armed cops were clearly in control and fully responsible for each encounter.

It is also worth noting that the most serious encounter involved a cop entering my home without my knowledge, let alone permission. It's hard to make a case I was responsible for that. The police subsequently refused to investigate the matter. It resulted in a settlement with the town such that certain officers may not enter my home under any circumstances. If there is a warrant or 911 call other individuals must be sent. I think you will agree that is not typical.

Illegally entering a person's home will definitely earn the distrust of that person.

Meanwhile, beating up 84 yo jaywalkers is the act of thugs. I see no response to that incident in your attempt to personaize this issue.


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## tc556guy (Apr 28, 2011)

Geek999 said:


> I would suggest that the officers involved were always in control in any incident involving myself. There is no right to carry here, and I am not a large or intimidating guy. I am no more of a threat than that 84 yo man beaten up for jaywalking. Armed cops were clearly in control and fully responsible for each encounter.
> 
> It is also worth noting that the most serious encounter involved a cop entering my home without my knowledge, let alone permission. It's hard to make a case I was responsible for that. The police subsequently refused to investigate the matter. It resulted in a settlement with the town such that certain officers may not enter my home under any circumstances. If there is a warrant or 911 call other individuals must be sent. I think you will agree that is not typical.
> 
> ...


Some of the most willing to fight folks I've known over the years were scrawny people. Some of them were small in addition to being scrawny, but just because someone isn't a burly guy doesn't make them any less of a threat for the LEO dealing with them.

I don't know about why the officer believed they needed to enter your home. Regardless, I am sure we wont get an unbiased explanation of those facts from you. Did someone you live with allow them in, was there exigent circumstances?
I don't know about the incident with the 84 year old guy, so I didn't comment on it.
The reality is in such situations that if you're relying on media reports of an incident you aren't getting the full story. The media sells via sensationalism.


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## Zeev_Zwaard (Jan 27, 2010)

BillM said:


> If you think you would be better off without the police, just wait until they are gone!
> 
> :usaflag:


The ARE gone, aren't they? Better we start being sincere about it and paint "To abuse and terrorize" on the cars. How long did it take for Germany to go from whatever passed for civilization there and then to the SS storm troopers taking over? How did it happen? Well . . . look around you. THIS is how it happens.

DC 911 Puts Woman on Hold...During a Home Invasion
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiep...-woman-on-holdduring-a-home-invasion-n1588581

The Sheep of Watertown
http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/04/the_sheep_of_watertown.html

And the list goes on forever. Really, it never ends.

If there were no more SS storm troopers at least the rest of us would ONLY have to deal with ONE kind of criminals.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

Josie the Outlaw, food for thought...


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## tc556guy (Apr 28, 2011)

Zeev_Zwaard said:


> The ARE gone, aren't they? Better we start being sincere about it and paint "To abuse and terrorize" on the cars. How long did it take for Germany to go from whatever passed for civilization there and then to the SS storm troopers taking over? How did it happen? Well . . . look around you. THIS is how it happens.


No, LE is a long ways from being gone in the US
Todays LE is more heavily scrutinized and over-watched than at any previous time in history.
Do you live in anything resembling the LA riots on a daily basis? No? Then LE is not 'gone"


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Oath Keepers*



FatTire said:


> Josie the Outlaw, food for thought...


I am a member of "Oath Keepers". This is exactly what the organization preaches and requires of all it's military and police officers


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

I have to doubt that bill.. Josie is pretty clearly saying that cops should not arrest people for marijuana, and i doubt seriously that other keepers are refusing to arrest people for marijuana possession in states that it is illegal...


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

BillM said:


> I am a member of "Oath Keepers". This is exactly what the organization preaches and requires of all it's military and police officers


Oath Keepers sounds great, but is there an example of a law currently on the books that Oath Keepers will not enforce? Is there any consensus among Oath Keepers about where the line is? It's one thing to say gun confiscations won't be done, but what about gun registration. That's an "infringement" in my mind. Magazine limits? Another infringement. As far as I know Oath Keepers are enforcing these laws.


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

tc556guy said:


> No, LE is a long ways from being gone in the US
> Todays LE is more heavily scrutinized and over-watched than at any previous time in history.
> Do you live in anything resembling the LA riots on a daily basis? No? Then LE is not 'gone"


Well said, sir.

Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

Geek999 said:


> Oath Keepers sounds great, but is there an example of a law currently on the books that Oath Keepers will not enforce? Is there any consensus among Oath Keepers about where the line is? It's one thing to say gun confiscations won't be done, but what about gun registration. That's an "infringement" in my mind. Magazine limits? Another infringement. As far as I know Oath Keepers are enforcing these laws.


Not to split hairs with you, Geek, but one's OPINION does not unconstitutional a law make. I agree that magazine limits are stupid; I've also never seen anyone charged with that particular violation, nor would I ever charge someone.

I am a member of Oathkeepers, as well. I know a lot of cops and military guys who are members.

Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Turtle said:


> Not to split hairs with you, Geek, but one's OPINION does not unconstitutional a law make. I agree that magazine limits are stupid; I've also never seen anyone charged with that particular violation, nor would I ever charge someone.
> 
> I am a member of Oathkeepers, as well. I know a lot of cops and military guys who are members.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


Great! I have a simple question. Is there any law, currently on the books, that Oath Keepers will not enforce? If there is I would appreciate knowing more. If not, it sounds like Oath Keepers will enforce anything that hasn't been struck down by the Supreme Court. Since non-Oath Keepers won't be enforcing laws the Supreme Court has struck down, one has to ask so what does being an Oath Keeper mean? What's the difference? I basically want to know where Oath Keepers draw the line.

As for magazine limits, there have been cases here in NJ (Keith Pantaleon currently) and there are cases underway in NY due to the new Safe Act. In fact we had the good fortune that a recent NY case led to a judge declaring that the part of the law that said you cannot load a 10 round magazine to more than 7 rounds is unconstitutional. I also read that the NY Safe Act has led to over 1000 arrests. I've only seen that once so it could be an error, but there have definitely been arrests since we now have cases working through the courts.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Geek is*



Turtle said:


> Not to split hairs with you, Geek, but one's OPINION does not unconstitutional a law make. I agree that magazine limits are stupid; I've also never seen anyone charged with that particular violation, nor would I ever charge someone.
> 
> I am a member of Oathkeepers, as well. I know a lot of cops and military guys who are members.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


Geek is a cop hater.

You can never convince him . Let it go !


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

BillM said:


> Geek is a cop hater.
> 
> You can never convince him . Let it go !


Turtle knows me well enough, and at this point I am asking him a question. I am quite willing to view Oath Keepers differently than say, the local cops in my town, if they are doing something that is different than the local cops. If they aren't doing anything differently then I'll probably wind up viewing them as irrelevant, but at the moment I admit I do not know much about Oath Keepers so I would appreciate simply getting some information.

As of now my understanding is they won't participate in door to door gun confiscations such as occurred during Katrina, but that was an illegal act on the part of law enforcement anyhow. If there is more to it I think the non-LEOs here would like to know. I certainly would.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*The Ten*



Geek999 said:


> Turtle knows me well enough, and at this point I am asking him a question. I am quite willing to view Oath Keepers differently than say, the local cops in my town, if they are doing something that is different than the local cops. If they aren't doing anything differently then I'll probably wind up viewing them as irrelevant, but at the moment I admit I do not know much about Oath Keepers so I would appreciate simply getting some information.
> 
> As of now my understanding is they won't participate in door to door gun confiscations such as occurred during Katrina, but that was an illegal act on the part of law enforcement anyhow. If there is more to it I think the non-LEOs here would like to know. I certainly would.


You have asked the question and I am going to give you our web site.

There are ten orders that "Oath Keepers" are all sworn to disobey.

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2013/01...use-to-enforce-gun-bans-or-registration/?cp=8


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

Geek999 said:


> Turtle knows me well enough, and at this point I am asking him a question. I am quite willing to view Oath Keepers differently than say, the local cops in my town, if they are doing something that is different than the local cops. If they aren't doing anything differently then I'll probably wind up viewing them as irrelevant, but at the moment I admit I do not know much about Oath Keepers so I would appreciate simply getting some information.
> 
> As of now my understanding is they won't participate in door to door gun confiscations such as occurred during Katrina, but that was an illegal act on the part of law enforcement anyhow. If there is more to it I think the non-LEOs here would like to know. I certainly would.


Geek's animus against cops notwithstanding, I think it is a good question. The Supreme court is supposed to be the supreme judge of the constitution, but for over 100 years it has made decisions that any thinking human being knows can not be reconcile to the plain language of the constitution...

If you read the 10 orders and oath keeper will not obey most of them are SHTF scenarios, and I supposed there is something to be said for having LEOs who in that worse case scenario would (hopefully) act. In order to have them in a position to act in that worse case scenario, however, it means that there are many laws that are blatantly unconstitutional that Oath Keepers might not stand up so strongly against.

Machine gun bans for instance...clearly unconstitutional from a plain reading of the constitution--which understands that "well regulate" does not mean dis-armed but if anything up-armed, more combat effective, and that Militia means (by law BTW) every able bodied male--may need to be enforced (really its the manufacture ban that is unconstitutional, the NFA is just contrary to the spirit of the law...) while hopefully freedom loving American's work on a political solution. Of course, there is also the possibility of discretion....

One of the "laws" which is also one of the 10 orders, that I wonder if Oath Keepers refuse to obey today is civil forfeiture laws... a clear violation of due process?

Part of the problem is, and this is not a LEO's fault, is that law is not supposed to be subjective, and yet the disrespect of the courts (before all others) for the rule of law undermines the concept of law. Individual LEOs should not have to appoint themselves jurists to determine the constitutionality of laws, however to truly be an oath keeper you do take this roll on because the courts have failed. Waiting to refuse one of the truly odious "10 orders," means that you have allowed things to get that bad, because bad laws don't just appear out of no-where.

Its tough, in a law-less nation I don't envy you the task of attempting to enforce laws... I demand a lot from Cops, but I also understand the difficulties.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Padre said:


> Geek's animus against cops notwithstanding, I think it is a good question. The Supreme court is supposed to be the supreme judge of the constitution, but for over 100 years it has made decisions that any thinking human being knows can not be reconcile to the plain language of the constitution...
> 
> If you read the 10 orders and oath keeper will not obey most of them are SHTF scenarios, and I supposed there is something to be said for having LEOs who in that worse case scenario would (hopefully) act. In order to have them in a position to act in that worse case scenario, however, it means that there are many laws that are blatantly unconstitutional that Oath Keepers might not stand up so strongly against.
> 
> ...


I agree that the history has been to chip away at the Bill of Rights in small steps. For instance, the Fourth Amendment prohibition on unreasonable searches has been pretty much trashed between SWAT teams and TSA. Viper squads are the latest assault on the Fourth Amendment.

This practice makes being an Oath Keeper a challenge if you aren't real clear on where the line is. We have states like CT now introducing gun registration for so-called assault weapons. It appears CT is going to start doing confiscations where people have not registered weapons they already own. Is this over the line?


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## Zeev_Zwaard (Jan 27, 2010)

tc556guy said:


> No, LE is a long ways from being gone in the US
> Todays LE is more heavily scrutinized and over-watched than at any previous time in history.
> Do you live in anything resembling the LA riots on a daily basis? No? Then LE is not 'gone"


I meant they are morally gone. I meant they are gone as their usefulness to decent and civilized folks.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

BillM said:


> There are ten orders that "Oath Keepers" are all sworn to disobey.
> http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2013/01...use-to-enforce-gun-bans-or-registration/?cp=8


I hope there are a lot more like " Oathkeeper 151 " out there than it seems there are.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

Unethical people aren't necessarily stupid.

I want your property. Law says no.

I could convince the local Authorities to ignore the law. But then in a higher court I'd lose.

I can go to the trouble and get the law changed. But then you could get it changed back.

Or I can get a sympathetic Judge appointed to rule in my favor. Checkmate.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

I don't get it. If he works for the NJ state police he must know that we have an effective registration system in place already. We also have an assault weapons ban, etc. We also have laws limiting transport of guns which directly contradict federal law.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*I agree*



Geek999 said:


> I don't get it. If he works for the NJ state police he must know that we have an effective registration system in place already. We also have an assault weapons ban, etc. We also have laws limiting transport of guns which directly contradict federal law.


IL and NJ gun laws are unconstitutional and I would not enforce them .

I would therefor not work as a law enforcement officer in either of those states.


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## irishboy61 (Jul 7, 2014)

BillS said:


> I don't whether to scream or vomit.
> 
> Completely and totally untrue. The police are being shackled. Prevented from enforcing the law. When the Occupiers trespass, illegally sleep on public property, destroy property, defecate on the street, prevent businesses from operating, harass people, and assault people, the police aren't allowed to make arrests. When the marxist occupiers refuse to leave and insist on being pepper sprayed, the police are treated like Nazis. It's the lawless Occupiers and their political allies who are the danger to the country.


All around where I live there have been cops shooting and killing people. Just this year a 90 year old woman was killed because they got a tip that drugs were in the house. The woman kept a gun in her house because it was a bad neighborhood. The swat came in and the woman thought that it was one of the local criminals and pulled out her gun. She was shot over 50 times and it was the wrong house. Nothing happened it was just an "oops" situation. Then in the same month swat threw a flash bang into the crib of a 1 year old boy. They blew his nose off and he had 2nd degree burns all over his face and probably brain damage or blindness. This was another tip and it was ALSO the wrong house. One swat officer was suspended and that was all. That makes me real safe.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

BillM said:


> IL and NJ gun laws are unconstitutional and I would not enforce them .
> 
> I would therefor not work as a law enforcement officer in either of those states.


Somehow I missed this when it was current.

Thank you for that stance and thank you to irishboy for reopening this old thread resulting in my overdue thank you.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

irishboy61 said:


> All around where I live there have been cops shooting and killing people. Just this year a 90 year old woman was killed because they got a tip that drugs were in the house. The woman kept a gun in her house because it was a bad neighborhood. The swat came in and the woman thought that it was one of the local criminals and pulled out her gun. She was shot over 50 times and it was the wrong house. Nothing happened it was just an "oops" situation. Then in the same month swat threw a flash bang into the crib of a 1 year old boy. They blew his nose off and he had 2nd degree burns all over his face and probably brain damage or blindness. This was another tip and it was ALSO the wrong house. One swat officer was suspended and that was all. That makes me real safe.


Links to the news stories you shared, please. Otherwise it didn't happen.


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## irishboy61 (Jul 7, 2014)

I'm using an ipod to write these and it won't let me put the links but you can see even more stories about this happening at wbtw.com. Sorry about the links. I have had this happen several times.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

irishboy61 said:


> I'm using an ipod to write these and it won't let me put the links but you can see even more stories about this happening at wbtw.com. Sorry about the links. I have had this happen several times.


An introductory post would also be appreciated. Welcome to the forum.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

irishboy61 said:


> I'm using an ipod to write these and it won't let me put the links but you can see even more stories about this happening at wbtw.com. Sorry about the links. I have had this happen several times.


Yeah, seeing that you are a teen and not backing up anything you are posting with details and real info sorry but I have to call...

Shenanigans.


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

Grimm said:


> Yeah, seeing that you are a teen and not backing up anything you are posting with details and real info sorry but I have to call...
> 
> Shenanigans.


I saw and read both stories ... I will try and find the links.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Johnston_shooting

http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f31/georgia-flashbang-grenade-injures-toddler-24826/


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## irishboy61 (Jul 7, 2014)

Grimm said:


> Yeah, seeing that you are a teen and not backing up anything you are posting with details and real info sorry but I have to call...
> 
> Shenanigans.


Well you could actually look at the articles on the real life news site


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

irishboy61 said:


> _*All around where I live*_ there have been cops shooting and killing people. Just this year a 90 year old woman was killed because they got a tip that drugs were in the house. The woman kept a gun in her house because it was a bad neighborhood. The swat came in and the woman thought that it was one of the local criminals and pulled out her gun. She was shot over 50 times and it was the wrong house. Nothing happened it was just an "oops" situation. Then in the same month swat threw a flash bang into the crib of a 1 year old boy. They blew his nose off and he had 2nd degree burns all over his face and probably brain damage or blindness. This was another tip and it was ALSO the wrong house. One swat officer was suspended and that was all. That makes me real safe.


You are a BLOWN OUT LIAR.

The Kathryn Johnston shooting happened in ATLANTA, GEORGIA in November, 2006. She was hit 5-6 times out of the 39 shots fired at her.

The Flash Bang incident also happened in ATLANTA, GEORGIA but in May, 2014.

That is an 8 year time span and not even in the same month like you stated!

Not to mention you posted in your intro you are in North Carolina! How could this have happened in the same month of the same year in your home in a different state!?!?!?!?!


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

*Andi said:


> I saw and read both stories ... I will try and find the links.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Johnston_shooting
> 
> http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f31/georgia-flashbang-grenade-injures-toddler-24826/


I looked and they are not in this kid's town in NORTH CAROLINA but they happened in Atlanta, Georgia *8 YEARS APART!*


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

irishboy61 said:


> Well you could actually look at the articles on the real life news site


I was calling you out on your lies.


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## irishboy61 (Jul 7, 2014)

Oh well it's still happening. Shy the h*ll do you care. It's on the topic for gods sake! It's not like I'm a f*cking now it all child always trying to prove everyone wrong. I'm not trying to actually do anything. I just joined and I'm trying to pitch in on conversation and topics that's all I wanna do. That's why I got this.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

Its a bad idea to get lippy with grimm.. and you lied... its probably best if you just leave...


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

Grimm said:


> I looked and they are not in this kid's town in NORTH CAROLINA but they happened in Atlanta, Georgia *8 YEARS APART!*


And ???

............................


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

irishboy61 said:


> Oh well it's still happening. Shy the h*ll do you care. It's on the topic for gods sake! It's not like I'm a f*cking now it all child always trying to prove everyone wrong. I'm not trying to actually do anything. I just joined and I'm trying to pitch in on conversation and topics that's all I wanna do. That's why I got this.


As the old adage goes, Children should be seen and not heard.

Seeing as how you are new to the forum you should be reading and learning not lying and trying to impress the grownups.

We have other teen members here that are wonderful additions to the forum but they don't lie and inflate their own egos for the sake of seeming bigger and badder than they are. Maybe you could learn something from them. (I'm talking about you, Prepper and Sybil.)


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

FatTire said:


> Its a bad idea to get lippy with grimm.. and you lied... its probably best if you just leave...


If the teen stopped the back talk and told the truth then they might learn something about prepping as they state that is why they are here.


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## irishboy61 (Jul 7, 2014)

FatTire said:


> Its a bad idea to get lippy with grimm.. and you lied... its probably best if you just leave...


I'm not trying to get lippy and I didn't mean to lie. I know you are just trying to help out in the situation but I don't wanna just leave. I just joined so I could learn the tools of the trade.


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## irishboy61 (Jul 7, 2014)

Grimm said:


> If the teen stopped the back talk and told the truth then they might learn something about prepping as they state that is why they are here.


Look man. I tried to share some useful info I've heard from my dad. How the h*ll could I have known it was 8 years apart? I heard this yesterday and all u wanted to do was look into this discussion and talk with the other members. I didn't mean for this to all to take a wrong turn.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

well then stop yapping and start reading. and do try to act like you are a decent human being.


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## hellrazor762 (May 20, 2012)

Is this a joke?


Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

irishboy61 said:


> I'm not trying to get lippy and I didn't mean to lie. I know you are just trying to help out in the situation but I don't wanna just leave. I just joined so I could learn the tools of the trade.


#1 Be able to back up your stories with real facts and news stories.

#2 Accept you have been called out and move on.

#3 You don't have to leave if you can behave (not lie or bring teen BS to the forum). You are here because your eyes are open to what is happening in our world but try not to add to the problem by sensationalizing things with BS.

#4 Reading older posts will help you on your path.

#5 Its not a trade but Skills for SURVIVAL.

#6 Read, read, read, read, read, read everything you can and ASK questions.


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## irishboy61 (Jul 7, 2014)

Grimm said:


> #1 Be able to back you your stories with real facts and news stories.
> 
> #2 Accept you have been called out and move on.
> 
> ...


All right. I'm sorry about all this.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

And yes, Grimm fell off the "be nice to the noobs" bandwagon. 

Back to the Original Topic, please.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

irishboy61 said:


> I'm not trying to get lippy and I didn't mean to lie. I know you are just trying to help out in the situation but I don't wanna just leave. I just joined so I could learn the tools of the trade.


Stick around. Every newbie gets a dose of hazing here. Do post an introduction to give us some context, e.g. What experience you have, what. You hope to get out of the forum, age (sounds like you are young which will get you some slack with some members and not so much from others.

Having actually experienced some disasters goes a long way with me but isn't vital.


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

I think we are done with this one ...


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