# Coffee, bath tissue and marlboros!!!



## JayJay

The Silver Bear Cafe

Why Marlboros May Be a Better Investment Than Gold???


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## UncleJoe

Here's the original post.

Martin, a Desert Shield veteran and former Boeing (BA) aerospace engineer, has written a book called Apocalypse: How to Survive a Global Crisis, which, according to the author himself, will help readers survive "any global crisis, be it a natural disaster, a financial meltdown or, yes, even an alien invasion."

"When things break down and infrastructure fails, people won't know where to go," he tells Minyanville. "They'll run to gold first, since Mastercard (MA), Visa (V), and Amex (AXP) will be utterly useless. Banks are going to be gone, cash won't be worth anything."

Aside from weapons, which Martin maintains are absolute necessities to stave off "some unwanted post-apocalyptic guest [who] will want to liberate" your belongings, Martin is investing in a wholly different asset class:

Cigarettes.

While others debate the merits of owning one precious metal versus another, Martin, who happens to be a non-smoker, is loading up on as many Marlboros (MO) as he possibly can.

"Americans are addicted to tobacco," he says. "Anything people 'can't live without' will become essential trading materials."

Kurt Vonnegut painted quite the realistic picture of cigarette-as-currency in a posthumously published story called "Brighten Up," about his experience as a prisoner of war in Dresden during WWII:

"Louis converted most of his wealth into the most negotiable of all securities, cigarettes. And it wasn't long before the possibilities of being a loan shark occurred to him. Once every two weeks we were issued twenty cigarettes. Slaves of the tobacco habit would exhaust the ration in one or two days, and would be in a state of frenzy until the next ration came."

After taking off for Central Mexico, where he learned "mechanics, welding, fire control, security, farming, ranching, construction, architecture, woodworking, first response, sanitation, plumbing, electrical, heating and air-conditioning, and metalworking," Martin returned to the States with his new wife, putting down roots in the desert, "leaving the world, family, friends and the rest of the sheep behind."

"For 10 years, I've had no TV, no bank account, no bills, no debt, no mortgage, no news, no mail," Martin says. "I haven't stood in a line, haven't sat in traffic, haven't spoken to a telemarketer -- I don't have a phone."

While the "sheep" are left to their own devices, Martin and his wife will subsist on the goats he and his wife breed, raise, and slaughter, along with chickens, catfish, and produce courtesy of "hydroponic technology pioneered by those growing illegal substances."

Though his "portfolio" may tend toward the atypical, Martin is traditional enough an investor to diversify.

"Besides cigarettes, there's really only two other things I'm stocking up on," he says. "Coffee. And toilet paper."

Why Marlboro Cigarettes May Be A Better Investment Than Gold | Markets | Minyanville.com


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## The_Blob

since manufactured cigs have a large percentage of 'recycled' tobacco in them & all kinds of other crap, don't they go bad (intentionally) faster than canned tobacco? :scratch



> Chemicals are added by cigarette manufactures for organoleptic purposes. 599 additives have been approved by the Dept. of Health and Human Services in April 1994 for use in the manufacture of cigarettes. None of these additives need to be listed as ingredients on the cigarette pack. The list of legal cigarette additives was created by the five major American cigarette companies. A key ingredient that makes cigarettes more addictive is the inclusion of *reconstituted tobacco*, which has additives to make nicotine more volatile as the cigarette burnsAmmonia is on the list and is particularly useful because it helps convert bound nicotine molecules in tobacco smoke into free nicotine molecules. This process is known as freebasing which enhances the effect of the nicotine on the smoker.


  :nuts:


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## lhalfcent

Freebasing???? what the????????????????


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## Woody

The_Blob said:


> since manufactured cigs have a large percentage of 'recycled' tobacco in them & all kinds of other crap, don't they go bad (intentionally) faster than canned tobacco? :scratch
> 
> :nuts:


They sure do and even a humidifier or humidor will not bring them back to good as new taste. I invested in cigarette tubes and a packing machine. The tubes have a filter and look like a store bought smoke only empty. You can buy leaf tobacco with NO TAX because it is an agricultural product. It is easy, yet a bit time consuming, to process and cut it up.

The tubes I prefer are $118.00 for 50 cartons of 200. The rolling/packing machine was $40, 2 for $80&#8230; always want a backup and extra parts! I have several large bags of flue cured leaf and tobacco seeds as a backup. It takes me a few weekends to process enough tobacco to last a year. Vacuum seal it up, label it and it is good to go, just make sure it is not too moist or it will mold, experience speaking here. If you know your farmer and help pick it out yourself you can get several grades of leaves. I forget the actual names they call them but it is lower, middle and tops. Lower are light, slightly harsh and low nicotine. Middle leaves are as strong to stronger than store bought regular smokes. The tops, well... you best be sitting and have some time on your hand as they are strong.


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## Meerkat

The_Blob said:


> since manufactured cigs have a large percentage of 'recycled' tobacco in them & all kinds of other crap, don't they go bad (intentionally) faster than canned tobacco? :scratch
> 
> :nuts:


 We roll our own from pipe tobacco,using filtered tubes.I'm sure its not much better but its 1/6 the price.Don't know if we 'freebase' or not.its a bad deadly habit for SURE.But no worse than many other habits.Bad way to die too,smothering,but I don't guess theres a good way to die.
I've had some people who never smoked give me dirty looks for smoking who could hardly walk they were so uhealthy.Other drugs are no better than my nerve remedy cigs.


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## UncleJoe

Meerkat said:


> We roll our own from pipe tobacco,using filtered tubes.


We do the same thing. Tobacco; $11 per lb. Tubes; $2.50 per carton. 2.5 cartons +/- per lb. of tobacco. Finished cigs; around $8.00 per carton

We started making our own back in '08. I have 3 totes that are always filled with 20 - 1# bags. Like most things, unopened, it keeps very well in a cool dry environment. I keep it rotated and that 60# will keep us supplied for 2 years if it disappears from the shelves. 
I vacuum packed a pound back in '09. Last year that bag came up in the rotation. It turns out that when sucking out the air it seems to have removed a lot of the moisture as well. It keeps a lot better in the original packaging.

*NOTE:* There is legislation in congress right now to raise the tax on pipe tobacco to match the cig tax. That will raise the price from $11 to $45 per lb. Right now it's sitting "in committee." Don't know when but sooner or later it will be addressed. I guess our congresscritters are a little busy right now. Good time to stock up.


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## Woody

UncleJoe said:


> *NOTE:* There is legislation in congress right now to raise the tax on pipe tobacco to match the cig tax. That will raise the price from $11 to $45 per lb. Right now it's sitting "in committee." Don't know when but sooner or later it will be addressed. I guess our congresscritters are a little busy right now. Good time to stock up.


Yes, they are going to close that 'loophole' because all you folks who do that are screwing them out of their tax money! They will catch-up to folks who buy whole cured leaf soon too. We can't have people finding ways to steal their due tax money away from them.


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## JayJay

Meerkat said:


> We roll our own from pipe tobacco,using filtered tubes.I'm sure its not much better but its 1/6 the price.Don't know if we 'freebase' or not.its a bad deadly habit for SURE.But no worse than many other habits.Bad way to die too,smothering,but I don't guess theres a good way to die.
> I've had some people who never smoked give me dirty looks for smoking who could hardly walk they were so uhealthy.Other drugs are no better than my nerve remedy cigs.


My mom started smoking @age 15...lived to be 77...yes, died of cancer, but who's to say from what?:scratch
Some are more susceptible than others...same can be said for lots of things??


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## TechAdmin

I keep a (non) healthy portion of smokes on hand, but that's honestly for me and mine when SHTF. I think I made need a smoke at that point.


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## gypsysue

I don't smoke but my grandpa smoked heavily and lived to 92. Yet others die young from smoke-related illnesses. It's a gamble, I guess.

We store tobacco, vacuum-sealed and in an airtight bucket, in a cool, dark place, for future tradeing potential.

What is pipe tobacco? Is it different from the bags of loose tobacco? If it's cheaper (for now, until the taxes are slammed on it), I should get some, but I have no clue about it.


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## Woody

Pipe tobacco is basically a rougher/wider cut than for cigarettes. I believe some are flavored but you can get straight pipe tobacco also. I’ve read most commercial cigarettes are made out of a low grade tobacco with plenty of additives to flavor them. Most of the tobacco grown in the US is exported, other countries pay a premium because of all the insecticides we prohibit. Most of the commercial smokes are made from imported tobacco where there is little regulation on using pesticides. Ours is expensive, theirs is cheap. It might say 100% Virginia tobacco but that is a type of plant, not where it was grown! I smoke 100% Virginia tobacco that was grown in Franklin County NC.


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## gypsysue

Thanks, Woody. How do we find US-grown tobacco then? Especially this far from tobacco country (Montana). Is there any way to pick through the BS lables and figure it out?

I guess since mine is for trade use and not for us, it shouldn't matter, but I don't want to sicken my friends and neighbors, either. I know, some would say just offering them tobacco in trade isn't doing them a favor, healthwise, either. :dunno:


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## BillS

It'll be good to have booze too. I'm not a drinker but I plan on having at least 4 bottles of Absolut Vodka. I'll probably need a couple of drinks just to get to sleep after it all hits the fan.

I see gold as having the most value in the time leading up to the collapse and after the government gets the economy going again. Laptops and iPhones won't have much value during the SHTF time either. 

During a collapse I think canned food will be a very valuable item along with toilet paper, cigarettes, booze, guns, and ammo. Another valuable item will be pet food. My wife and I plan on getting a cat or two in the coming months. Now I'll need a year's supply of pet food and kitty litter too.


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## The_Blob

BillS said:


> Another valuable item will be pet food. My wife and I plan on getting a cat or two in the coming months. Now I'll need a year's supply of pet food and kitty litter too.


you'll find that Mother Nature has provided PLENTY of cat food... BIRDS! (and mice) :lolsmash:

as for litter box... if you have potted plants.....................


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## Nadja

I will disagree with most here on the gold issue. If the shtf, and you have 1,000 gold coins in oz. , what will happen if you try to trade it for a few potatoes ? How would the tator grower make any kind of change ? Right now, if you were to go to the grocery store and try and pay your bill with a 1oz rand, would the store make you change ? Silver , I think would be a far better managable source of barter. 

But, cigs, oh man, that is better then gold. This is spoken from a smoker for about 50 years now.


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## JayJay

BillS said:


> It'll be good to have booze too. I'm not a drinker but I plan on having at least 4 bottles of Absolut Vodka. I'll probably need a couple of drinks just to get to sleep after it all hits the fan.
> 
> I see gold as having the most value in the time leading up to the collapse and after the government gets the economy going again. Laptops and iPhones won't have much value during the SHTF time either.
> 
> During a collapse I think canned food will be a very valuable item along with toilet paper, cigarettes, booze, guns, and ammo. Another valuable item will be pet food. My wife and I plan on getting a cat or two in the coming months. Now I'll need a year's supply of pet food and kitty litter too.


Mr. Bill...melatonin...I have stocked up!!!:ignore:


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## tsrwivey

Nadja said:


> I will disagree with most here on the gold issue. If the shtf, and you have 1,000 gold coins in oz. , what will happen if you try to trade it for a few potatoes ? How would the tator grower make any kind of change ? Right now, if you were to go to the grocery store and try and pay your bill with a 1oz rand, would the store make you change ? Silver , I think would be a far better managable source of barter.


I honestly don't think precious metals will be the primary means of trade. The problems with them are deal breakers, IMHO. Their value is not widely known. Who knows what an oz of gold is worth? They're not useful, they meet no immediate need. Most can't determine a real gold/silver coin from a fake. Why would they trade for metals when they could trade for something either they have an immediate need for or know that item is something someone else would need? That's my .02 on the matter so we have no PMs. :dunno:


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## Emerald

tsrwivey said:


> I honestly don't think precious metals will be the primary means of trade. The problems with them are deal breakers, IMHO. Their value is not widely known. Who knows what an oz of gold is worth? They're not useful, they meet no immediate need. Most can't determine a real gold/silver coin from a fake. Why would they trade for metals when they could trade for something either they have an immediate need for or know that item is something someone else would need? That's my .02 on the matter so we have no PMs. :dunno:


While I do have some silver and a bit of gold held back, I don't believe that it will be worth anything for barter either(maybe some of the rings for weddings later on).. Maybe in the beginning when folks think that the SHTF is not gonna last(think back to Katrina and the ding dongs stealing tvs and electronics that would not be useful for many many many weeks). Sure some folks will want to trade for them but not many... I have sewing needles-fishing hooks and extra line, and am stocking up on threads too. at the moment I have been going thru stuff for a yard sale and some stuff is going straight to thrift store.. But all good jeans are still here and will be kept after yard sale. I can either barter them, or make things from them.. good sturdy clothing will become like gold--just think-sure there is clothing everywhere now.. but with no china or asia for our cheap ass clothing to come from we will not have replacements right at hand. Just one of the many things that are seldom thought of by folks other than us preppers. And then even some preppers might not have thought of this. All my sewing machines can be converted to pedal power if needed.. No fancy smancy digital machines for me.


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## Immolatus

tsrwivey said:


> I honestly don't think precious metals will be the primary means of trade. The problems with them are deal breakers, IMHO. Their value is not widely known. Who knows what an oz of gold is worth? They're not useful, they meet no immediate need. Most can't determine a real gold/silver coin from a fake. Why would they trade for metals when they could trade for something either they have an immediate need for or know that item is something someone else would need? That's my .02 on the matter so we have no PMs. :dunno:


While this is obviously true in some sense, in a societal collapse there will be few people able to afford gold, and the problems with making change, BUT, in the event of some kind of monetary collaps, gold will go through the roof, and other than actual true tangible assets (food/water/guns/etc) this will be the only form of money still worth anything. 
Other than those above assets, it will be the ONLY medium of exchange. I include silver with gold.
I would think who doesnt know the price of gold? It the only true measure of inflation, and the only real measure of currency value. What is your dollar worth? A Euro? Its true measure is how much gold it will buy.
Gold and silver have always been THE mediums of exchange. Always.
While an ounce of silver isnt worth anything to someone who has no food, when SHTF, gold and silver will be literally worth a fortune. If the dollar/euro collapse, it will be the only money around. A quarter from 1963 is worth $6.
Just for the sake of discussion, lets say the dollar collapses on August 3rd.
What will people use or accept as money? Your dollars are worthless. Gold and silver are now worth a ton of 'money' because they are the only money around that everyone understands.

I assumed that everyone on this forum would know this. Its basically the only discussions going on in the money and investing threads.
It will be the only form of money, because it has always been.


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## gypsysue

We started to buy booze of different kinds for future trade items, then discovered many of our family and friends were making booze of different kinds: wine, wiskey, and rum. So I don't think booze will be all that rare around these parts.

We have a small amount of gold and silver coins, but don't really have the money to make much of an investment there, and also think it won't be easy to use in the part of the country we're in. Barter is likely to the type of exchange here, although I'm sure there'll be some gold or silver floating around.

I think the items the OP mentioned are among the best barter items, and I'm sure we could make quite a list from there!


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## tsrwivey

Immolatus said:


> I would think who doesnt know the price of gold? It the only true measure of inflation, and the only real measure of currency value. What is your dollar worth? A Euro? Its true measure is how much gold it will buy.
> Gold and silver have always been THE mediums of exchange. Always.
> Gold and silver are now worth a ton of 'money' because they are the only money around that everyone understands.
> 
> I assumed that everyone on this forum would know this. It will be the only form of money, because it has always been.


I have heard the arguements for years, I just don't think they're realistic. Yes, initially when the current currencies of the world begin to collapse, many people with turn to PMs as a means of protecting their cash flow. But what happens when the collapse has completed? Some will have a stock of PMs, to do what with?
Most people couldn't even begin to tell you how much a given gold or silver coin is worth, so how could it possibly be used as a means of trade? In order to be used as a basis for trade, its value has to be known to the person you are trading with.

A few years after SHTF, maybe people will begin to be interested in shiny things again & at that point PMs may be valuable but until then you better have food, bullets, & other supplies to trade with. JMHO


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## Nadja

Lets say for the sake of argument , that I have 100 beef steers in my back yard. You have 100 gold coins. I am going to butcher one and you come over with your gold coins. Am I going to trade you meat for gold ? Gold is really hard on my teeth and even harder to digest, so the answer is no. I will trade my beef for something else we need , such as tators, gas, oil, or whatever, but not gold. Even if you could establish some value to a coin or oz.


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## tsrwivey

What about marijuana? I think it's legal to have the seeds & it can be used for all sorts of things! Kinda like having a replenishable stash of cigs, xanax, pain killers, etc. :ignore: I don't smoke anything but as a nurse have seen the benefits of marijuana. Just a thought...


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## The_Blob

Nadja said:


> Lets say for the sake of argument , that I have 100 beef steers in my back yard. You have 100 gold coins. I am going to butcher one and you come over with your gold coins. Am I going to trade you meat for gold ? Gold is really hard on my teeth and even harder to digest, so the answer is no. I will trade my beef for something else we need , such as tators, gas, oil, or whatever, but not gold. Even if you could establish some value to a coin or oz.


idk... if you (I) were in that well off of a position (a self-sustaining farm with large herds of live stock AND security to protect it) you (I) just might start positioning yourself (myself) or your (my) legacy to become the new 'power elite' sometime in the future, unfortunately neither ambition nor ability are hereditary traits

but I have to agree that in the short term PMs aren't as valuable as immediate survival needs like food and ammunition


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## Nadja

No, I am not in that position. Will be building my first chicken coop in late fall. My garden is starting fairly well, and my acrage has lots of trees and privacy. My solar and wind keep the house going pretty well. I have some silver, but only as an edge on inflation. If we go into total melt down as a planet, I assure you that pms are going to be worthless for many many years. 

You can argue this all you want , but look and think closely at my point in my last post. You can be sitting on ft knox, and starve in the above event. Gold is pretty, feels good in the hand, but you can't eat it.


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## Clarice

I beleive tobacco and booze will be good barter items but wouldn't salt or other spices be better?


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## Immolatus

tsrwivey said:


> I have heard the arguements for years, I just don't think they're realistic. Yes, initially when the current currencies of the world begin to collapse, many people with turn to PMs as a means of protecting their cash flow. But what happens when the collapse has completed? Some will have a stock of PMs, to do what with?
> Most people couldn't even begin to tell you how much a given gold or silver coin is worth, so how could it possibly be used as a means of trade? In order to be used as a basis for trade, its value has to be known to the person you are trading with.
> 
> A few years after SHTF, maybe people will begin to be interested in shiny things again & at that point PMs may be valuable but until then you better have food, bullets, & other supplies to trade with. JMHO


Your points are totally valid. but the OP includes Marlboros. If you do not smoke, a pack of cigs has no value to you. Does this mean you wouldnt consider stashing some away? Obviously these will be worth a lot to a smoker who has none. 
I still say how could anyone not know the value of an ounce of gold? Since its breaking all time highs now, its in every news broadcast every day. It the only way to know how much your dollar bill is actually worth. Valuing it in a SHTF situation will be a different story, but it will obviously have tremendous worth if there is no other form of money around.



Nadja said:


> Lets say for the sake of argument , that I have 100 beef steers in my back yard. You have 100 gold coins. I am going to butcher one and you come over with your gold coins. Am I going to trade you meat for gold ? Gold is really hard on my teeth and even harder to digest, so the answer is no. I will trade my beef for something else we need , such as tators, gas, oil, or whatever, but not gold. Even if you could establish some value to a coin or oz.


See above. Again, if the gold has no value to you, then you wont take it. But gold and silver have ALWAYS been THE medium of exchange.
I completely applaud you if you have no need for money in a SHTF situation. Thats somewhat the point of this forum.
For anyone else, when the dollar goes into freefall and it ends up worthless, pm's will be the only money around. If I run a general store that somehow remains open, what could I accept as money? Trading in goods would not be always practical. What would I do with your steer? What if you have nothing I actually want/need? The only thing I will take is money. Its why money was invented. And the only money will be gold and silver.

I will assume you do not plan on having any money at all? Or accepting money in trade for anything? Again, that is great for you if you do not. I am totally envious. I would love to live like that, with no need for money and to be totally self sufficient. Thats not realistic in a societal sense, correct?

If I dont smoke or drink coffee, it may not be worth it for me to stash some. If I could stash some to use as money, assuming I have the resources to do so, it would obviously be worth it for me to do so.

I totally agree with both of your points of view. The only way I see for pm's not have no value at all would be a teotwawki situation. In that case, were all living like cavemen anyway. Whoo hoo!
Food, water, and everything else you need to survive is priority number one. Even in a barter economy, there will always be a need for money.


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## IrritatedWithUS

tsrwivey said:


> What about marijuana? I think it's legal to have the seeds & it can be used for all sorts of things! Kinda like having a replenishable stash of cigs, xanax, pain killers, etc. :ignore: I don't smoke anything but as a nurse have seen the benefits of marijuana. Just a thought...


You're the very first person I've seen on this site in a year to mention marijuana.
Thank You


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## HarleyRider

I'm not sure, but I believe one of our "guests" married Juana, and we all said "congratulations". Might now have been a year ago.


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## BillS

tsrwivey said:


> I have heard the arguements for years, I just don't think they're realistic. Yes, initially when the current currencies of the world begin to collapse, many people with turn to PMs as a means of protecting their cash flow. But what happens when the collapse has completed? Some will have a stock of PMs, to do what with?
> Most people couldn't even begin to tell you how much a given gold or silver coin is worth, so how could it possibly be used as a means of trade? In order to be used as a basis for trade, its value has to be known to the person you are trading with.
> 
> A few years after SHTF, maybe people will begin to be interested in shiny things again & at that point PMs may be valuable but until then you better have food, bullets, & other supplies to trade with. JMHO


Most likely our future world currency would be based on gold or silver. Before we had "Federal Reserve Notes" we had "Silver Certificates". You could redeem your Silver Certificate for one dollar's worth of silver. Gold is an excellent medium of exchange because it has intrinsic value and the supply doesn't fluctuate.


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## tugboats

I am taking no chances. I have some gold. Most of my precious metal holdings are in silver. Silver is needed in so many areas of manufacturing, medicine and electronics. This is the most "needed" metal other than copper. I have stored a large quntity of copper pipe, fittings and the equipment to bend, cut and solder them together.

As far as metals go I will concentrate on silver and copper. Steels should be easy enough to scavenge.

I keep several pounds of tobacco in my stores. Filter tubes and rolling papers will also be needed. If you doubt the value of cigs to some observe someone at an event or at a gas station. I have seen people lay down $8.00 for a pack of smokes. I roll my own for about a buck a pack.

Each pay day I pick up some half pints of gin, vodka, blended, scotch and bourbon. These go into my stores(one type at a time). I use it infrequently but when I camp I need a touch of "ground softener". I belive this will be true of others.

Cigs, booze, clean water and food will be in the most demand, but I also stock TP.


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## Woody

Nadja said:


> No, I am not in that position. Will be building my first chicken coop in late fall. My garden is starting fairly well, and my acrage has lots of trees and privacy. My solar and wind keep the house going pretty well. I have some silver, but only as an edge on inflation. If we go into total melt down as a planet, I assure you that pms are going to be worthless for many many years.
> 
> You can argue this all you want , but look and think closely at my point in my last post. You can be sitting on ft knox, and starve in the above event. Gold is pretty, feels good in the hand, but you can't eat it.


Look at it another way. You still have your 100 head and a person wants some and they only have silver coins. You talk about what other items they have to trade and it is nothing you want. What you need is someone to fix a wagon wheel, you need a blacksmiths services. You know a blacksmith but they are a vegetarian, no need for beef. You need some medium of exchange to trade your beef for a service. Say the blacksmith needs steel, you do not have any but know someone who has lots. Do you tell the blacksmith that if they fix your wheel you will tell them where they can get steel? It doesn't usually work like that. Do you go and trade beef for the steel then trade the steel for the repair? That is true barter but takes a lot of time and you need the wagon to haul the steel with and it needs to be repaired before you can haul the steel! You need an easy, portable, common 'currency'. This is where the actual value of money comes in. It might have no value to you but you know the blacksmith will fix your tire for 10 pieces of silver. You need to 'sell' enough beef to get ten pieces of silver. How much beef is that? It depends on what the person buying it deems its worth is and what you are willing to part with to get your repairs. If the repair is worth 10 pounds of beef to you then you need to get the person to buy 10 pounds of beef for 10 pieces of silver. You might end up trading 15 pounds for the silver or perhaps 5 pounds. But, you both will come to an agreement as to the price of the beef because you both need something besides beef.

People know about silver and gold and that it has 'value' or at least did in the pre-SHTF world. It will still be a valid form of 'currency' used. Its value will be decided between those that trade it for goods or services and it will find a value in each community or group. It might be worth a lot more to one group that has little of it and less to a group that has tons of it but it will have value.


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## tsrwivey

IrritatedWithUS said:


> You're the very first person I've seen on this site in a year to mention marijuana.
> Thank You


LOL It was the anniversary of a patient that used it & then recalled a friend's dad & his copy of "High Times" that advertised seeds for sale. It had never occurred to me before the other day.


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## Immolatus

Woody said:


> Look at it another way. You still have your 100 head and a person wants some and they only have silver coins. You talk about what other items they have to trade and it is nothing you want. What you need is someone to fix a wagon wheel, you need a blacksmiths services. You know a blacksmith but they are a vegetarian, no need for beef. You need some medium of exchange to trade your beef for a service. Say the blacksmith needs steel, you do not have any but know someone who has lots. Do you tell the blacksmith that if they fix your wheel you will tell them where they can get steel? It doesn't usually work like that. Do you go and trade beef for the steel then trade the steel for the repair? That is true barter but takes a lot of time and you need the wagon to haul the steel with and it needs to be repaired before you can haul the steel! You need an easy, portable, common 'currency'. This is where the actual value of money comes in. It might have no value to you but you know the blacksmith will fix your tire for 10 pieces of silver. You need to 'sell' enough beef to get ten pieces of silver. How much beef is that? It depends on what the person buying it deems its worth is and what you are willing to part with to get your repairs. If the repair is worth 10 pounds of beef to you then you need to get the person to buy 10 pounds of beef for 10 pieces of silver. You might end up trading 15 pounds for the silver or perhaps 5 pounds. But, you both will come to an agreement as to the price of the beef because you both need something besides beef.
> 
> People know about silver and gold and that it has 'value' or at least did in the pre-SHTF world. It will still be a valid form of 'currency' used. Its value will be decided between those that trade it for goods or services and it will find a value in each community or group. It might be worth a lot more to one group that has little of it and less to a group that has tons of it but it will have value.


Well done. The PTB have done everything they can to blur the concept of money that we are becoming blind to it.
Ron Paul: Is gold money?
Ben Bernanke: No.
Paul: Then why do goverments hoard it?

If this was 1972, after our Federal Reserve Notes were completely removed from pm's, we wouldnt be having this discussion, because it would still be on everyones minds what they had done, and its implications.


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## ReconCraftTheta

Not a smoker, don't intend to be. However, tobacco does have antiseptic properties! Never tried it, though.


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## Meerkat

UncleJoe said:


> We do the same thing. Tobacco; $11 per lb. Tubes; $2.50 per carton. 2.5 cartons +/- per lb. of tobacco. Finished cigs; around $8.00 per carton
> 
> We started making our own back in '08. I have 3 totes that are always filled with 20 - 1# bags. Like most things, unopened, it keeps very well in a cool dry environment. I keep it rotated and that 60# will keep us supplied for 2 years if it disappears from the shelves.
> I vacuum packed a pound back in '09. Last year that bag came up in the rotation. It turns out that when sucking out the air it seems to have removed a lot of the moisture as well. It keeps a lot better in the original packaging.
> 
> *NOTE:* There is legislation in congress right now to raise the tax on pipe tobacco to match the cig tax. That will raise the price from $11 to $45 per lb. Right now it's sitting "in committee." Don't know when but sooner or later it will be addressed. I guess our congresscritters are a little busy right now. Good time to stock up.


 Many of these polititions are chain smokers,but since we pay for their wants and needs they can afford to raise the price .We rolled our own for last 12 years,did use Tops or Bugler,then it went to almost $6 a box so we switched to pipe tobacco.
Should have seen OUR middlE aged kids faces when we pulled out the can and rolling papers.." WHAT IS THAT!DO YOU HAVE TO ROLL ONE OF 'THOSE THINGS'."


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## Meerkat

ReconCraftTheta said:


> Not a smoker, don't intend to be. However, tobacco does have antiseptic properties! Never tried it, though.


 Good for you,I'm a smoker and I can't stand the stuff.I've quit 1000 times.


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## BillM

*PM's*



Immolatus said:


> Well done. The PTB have done everything they can to blur the concept of money that we are becoming blind to it.
> Ron Paul: Is gold money?
> Ben Bernanke: No.
> Paul: Then why do goverments hoard it?
> 
> If this was 1972, after our Federal Reserve Notes were completely removed from pm's, we wouldnt be having this discussion, because it would still be on everyones minds what they had done, and its implications.


For the last six thousand years Gold and Silver have had an exchange rate for every currency in the world.

In the event of a disaster that stops all commerce, a lot of bad things will happen that will result in the death and distruction of sociaty as we know it.

At some point following this people will rebuild their sociatys and new currencys will be accepted to allow for the easy transportation of wealth.

I'm betting on Gold and silver to transport my wealth from this sociaty and monitary system to the next.

I am counting on stored provisions to feed me and protect me during the crises.

I trade in precious metals to produce income in dollars but I put back a portion of my profits in phyisical gold and silver as insurance against the failure of the US Dollar.


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## goshengirl

BillM said:


> I'm betting on Gold and silver to transport my wealth from this sociaty and monitary system to the next.


Same here. I don't think of precious metals as something to use during a collapse, but something to preserve (at least to some degree) our savings for after the collapse. I think durable goods (tools, supplies, etc.) and food/water are needed during the collapse, and pm's are needed to rebuild afterwards (as they will have recognized value regardless of what the currency turns out to be).


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## IndigoLight

Emerald said:


> All my sewing machines can be converted to pedal power if needed.. No fancy smancy digital machines for me.


What kind of machines for you have? I was thinking about buying an old-fashioned manual one...


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## stayingthegame

ReconCraftTheta said:


> Not a smoker, don't intend to be. However, tobacco does have antiseptic properties! Never tried it, though.


every hear the line "don't blow smoke up my butt" . it comes from a treatment for many ailments in the 1800's . they would place a wooden straw in the anus, and then blow tobacco smoke up the straw! :surrender:


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## kejmack

In the old days, tobacco was ingested as a wormer for humans and animals alike. 

At our house, we have chocolate, coffee, and beer brewing to use as currency.


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## kejmack

BillM said:


> I'm betting on Gold and silver to transport my wealth from this sociaty and monitary system to the next.


The problem is you can't eat gold. When post-war Germany suffered from hyper-inflation, food and cigarettes were more valuable than gold.


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## Emerald

IndigoLight said:


> What kind of machines for you have? I was thinking about buying an old-fashioned manual one...


I have an old Montgomery Wards machine from a yard sale (cost my mom a whole whopping $10) and I also have a heavy duty White that is much newer-sews slower but can go thru 4 layers of leather/swede and about 8 layers of denim. Since they are not digitally/computer controlled and just a push the pedal and sew type machines I can just sew by turning the wheel-that kind of machine can easily be made into a crank or foot pedal or even bike type pedaling sewing machine. 
A big thrift/bargain store near me has about 20 old pedal sewing machines-mostly singer ones and I have been thinking about just buying one and seeing if they can be converted into being used with my newer machines. the Main problem with them is the belts being hard to find.
But first I need to get rid of all the crap in the junk room and make it a sewing/craft room.


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## BillM

*They were valuable*



kejmack said:


> The problem is you can't eat gold. When post-war Germany suffered from hyper-inflation, food and cigarettes were more valuable than gold.


True , they were valuable, however, the Nazi's that escaped and set up in a palatial lifestile in argentina and Brazil did so with Gold and diamonds, not Marks.

:wave:


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## VUnder

tsrwivey said:


> What about marijuana? I think it's legal to have the seeds & it can be used for all sorts of things! Kinda like having a replenishable stash of cigs, xanax, pain killers, etc. :ignore: I don't smoke anything but as a nurse have seen the benefits of marijuana. Just a thought...


When there isn't any law, why would it be illegal.


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## Calista

It made an indelible impression on me when, as a young adult in the hospital undergoing elective surgery many years ago, my roommate on the other side of the curtain -- a middle-aged woman with diabetes and a gangrenous foot -- whined incessantly to her doctor about "needing a smoke." He explained about her compromised venous circulation in vain, as it were. 

I saw her family members sneak a pack of Marlboros into her room that evening and watched while she lit the first one up, sucking on it feverishly. Even when I rang for the nurse to object to the cloud of noxious smoke drifting over my bed and nauseating me while I was trying to recover from the anesthetic, this woman refused to put out the cigarette and finished it before the doctor arrived to confiscate the rest of the pack.

When I checked out the next morning, my roommate was back to complaining about her need for a cigarette while the doctor informed her amputation of her foot was a real possibility in her case. 

So I often think of the value of stockpiling tobacco and rolling papers for all those nicotine addicts out there who would probably trade their first-born to keep puffing -- but I just can't do it. 

I'll stick with the extra TP, coffee, and bottles of booze -- although the latter might be problematic, too, in loosening up the inhibitions of the MZBs. :dunno:


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## lickit

*tp ROTS in a couple of years, people.*

big waste of money. go with free telephone books, instead, altho you must know that such paper won't biodegrade enough for use in flush toilets. Since almost nobody will have working flush toilets after shtf, that is a non issue. Cigarettes go very stale in a few months, if they are not kept in a freezer. Better to stock .22lr ammo for the short term, and gold coins, 1/10th oz ones, now, for later on, after things calm down, cause nearly everyone is dead.


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## BillS

lickit said:


> big waste of money. go with free telephone books, instead, altho you must know that such paper won't biodegrade enough for use in flush toilets. Since almost nobody will have working flush toilets after shtf, that is a non issue. Cigarettes go very stale in a few months, if they are not kept in a freezer. Better to stock .22lr ammo for the short term, and gold coins, 1/10th oz ones, now, for later on, after things calm down, cause nearly everyone is dead.


Toilet paper lasts forever if you keep it dry. I don't care if there aren't flush toilets. I'm still storing and using toilet paper. It's a lot gentler on your skin. You don't want to use coarse paper and then end up with skin problems that you don't have the medicines necessary to treat.

Does Toilet Paper Expire? The Great TP Debate

"To get to the bottom of this debate, I went to the King of Toilet Paper himself, Kenn Fischburg, author of the Toilet Paper Encyclopedia and President of our company,ToiletPaperWorld.com. Here's what the King had to say: "Paper can last generations and will only lose effectiveness if it gets wet or moist. There is no set expiration date.""

According to Philip Morris, cigarettes are good for 9 to 12 months. I'm sure after a collapse smokers will smoke them long after that.

At what point do cigarettes go out of date? | LinkedIn Answers | LinkedIn

"Nine months after production date cigarettes are no longer good to be shipped ex-factory. Still, after those nine months, a smoking panel can be organized (random cigarettes are being smoked from the affected lot) and if the results are satisfactory, the lot can still be sold for three more months. After that, no more exception is being granted. So, your answer is nine to twelve months."

One tenth of an ounce gold coins sell for a significant premium and they're too expensive to use for most barter transactions. If gold is worth $1680 an ounce, a tenth of an ounce coin is worth $168. That's a lot to use if you want to buy some apples or tomatoes from someone. Junk silver coins are much better for that. With silver at about $30 an ounce, an old 90% silver Liberty dime is worth about $2.10. So a 1/10 ounce gold coin is worth about 80 old silver dimes. You can read about junk silver here:

Junk silver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## LilRedHen

ReconCraftTheta said:


> Not a smoker, don't intend to be. However, tobacco does have antiseptic properties! Never tried it, though.


Chewing tobacco will take the pain and swelling from a bee or wasp sting. It has to be freshly chewed to work well. Wetting tobacco from a cigarette does not work. I remember having this remedy applied to my stings as a child when OTC meds were not plentiful and going to a doctor was only for a near death event. As a child with an earache, having smoke blown in my ear was an almost immediate relief.


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## LilRedHen

kejmack said:


> In the old days, tobacco was ingested as a wormer for humans and animals alike.
> 
> At our house, we have chocolate, coffee, and beer brewing to use as currency.


A pouch of chewing tobacco will worm a horse, so will a pound of brown sugar. As a child, I was given 3 drops of turpentine on a half teaspoon of sugar if my mother thought I was 'wormy'. It was awful!


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## LilRedHen

Emerald said:


> I have an old Montgomery Wards machine from a yard sale (cost my mom a whole whopping $10) and I also have a heavy duty White that is much newer-sews slower but can go thru 4 layers of leather/swede and about 8 layers of denim. Since they are not digitally/computer controlled and just a push the pedal and sew type machines I can just sew by turning the wheel-that kind of machine can easily be made into a crank or foot pedal or even bike type pedaling sewing machine.
> A big thrift/bargain store near me has about 20 old pedal sewing machines-mostly singer ones and I have been thinking about just buying one and seeing if they can be converted into being used with my newer machines. the Main problem with them is the belts being hard to find.
> But first I need to get rid of all the crap in the junk room and make it a sewing/craft room.


Emerald,
I have three electric machines and 3 treadles. Last year I rescued a treadle that the Rooster has had longer that he has had me. It was a completely rusted hulk. It took a can of WD-40 and a large bottle of oil and many many hours of work, but it now sews even with the old needle that was in it. It is an 1888 model Singer. It is on display in my house, but I would use one of the other treadles as my primary machine in a SHTF situation, since the feet & bobbins interchange with my electric. My small town fabric store had 3 belts for the treadles, & I bought all three. I see the belts almost constantly on EBay. The treadles were straight stitch machines, but I have attachments that will do zig zags and other decorative stitches, hem stitching, ruffling, etc. If the treadles at the thrift store turn well by hand and have bobbin cases and attachments with them, it won't take much to make them sew like a charm and you won't have to go to the hassle of trying to convert an electric.


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## BillM

*Ear Ache*



LilRedHen said:


> Chewing tobacco will take the pain and swelling from a bee or wasp sting. It has to be freshly chewed to work well. Wetting tobacco from a cigarette does not work. I remember having this remedy applied to my stings as a child when OTC meds were not plentiful and going to a doctor was only for a near death event. As a child with an earache, having smoke blown in my ear was an almost immediate relief.


My dad was born in 1910. When he was eight years old he got a bad ear ache.

His mom and dad were told by the old woman next door that if they poured "maiden's urine" in the affected ear , it would cure the ear ache.

They secured some urine from dad's aunt and held him down while his mother poured the urine in his ear.

I asked him if it cured the ear ache and he told me that his ear still hurt but he never complained about anything hurting again.

He didn't know whether the remidy was bogus or his aunt wasn't the virgin she claimed to be but he didn't want to undergo any further attempts at folk remidys !


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## lotsoflead

LilRedHen said:


> A pouch of chewing tobacco will worm a horse, so will a pound of brown sugar. As a child, I was given 3 drops of turpentine on a half teaspoon of sugar if my mother thought I was 'wormy'. It was awful!


 that was also our remedy in the 40s


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## Emerald

LilRedHen said:


> Emerald,
> I have three electric machines and 3 treadles. Last year I rescued a treadle that the Rooster has had longer that he has had me. It was a completely rusted hulk. It took a can of WD-40 and a large bottle of oil and many many hours of work, but it now sews even with the old needle that was in it. It is an 1888 model Singer. It is on display in my house, but I would use one of the other treadles as my primary machine in a SHTF situation, since the feet & bobbins interchange with my electric. My small town fabric store had 3 belts for the treadles, & I bought all three. I see the belts almost constantly on EBay. The treadles were straight stitch machines, but I have attachments that will do zig zags and other decorative stitches, hem stitching, ruffling, etc. If the treadles at the thrift store turn well by hand and have bobbin cases and attachments with them, it won't take much to make them sew like a charm and you won't have to go to the hassle of trying to convert an electric.


Thanks for that advice! I may just go and check them out again.. Most of them were under $50.. most around $20. Just went and checked Amazon and you can buy 25 feet of leather singer sewing machine belt.. (I am assuming you cut to size and sew it together(?) But I'll bet that with my knack for fixing things with out the right stuff I may just be able to make a belt to fit.


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## beanpicker

Ok , at this moment, I have went two weeks, 2 days , 6 hours an 27 seconds with out a cigeratte.. well 28 seconds now , an I'll be darn if I bring them back into the house to barter for any thing , I hope to just clean myself of this nasty habbit, an maybe use the extra money for things like food.. 
The first week I like to ripped my better half in two,just with words, poor guy didn't even know I was trying to quit. I didn't tell him in fear I would fail for I have failed a couple times before. ok 29 seconds now,, 
But he findly noticed I wasn't smoking an things have gotten so much better, at least now I can go in an pay for my gas an not look at the cigeratte section or check my purse to see if I have enought in my pack to last till tomorrow. 

But NO, NO ,NO ,will I buy another pack, but Lord help us all when thoes around us don't have there smokes when things get bad.. 
My better half doesn't smoke an we don't don't drink , other that water, lol ,an course don't use drugs , an I honestly wouldn't want to be around these people who life styles are daily users of this crap.. heck most will kill off there family members first .


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## beanpicker

Time sure does fly when your having fun,,, 2 weeks, 2 days, 8 hours an 56 seconds,,, give or take a second eather way..


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## neldarez

beanpicker said:


> Ok , at this moment, I have went two weeks, 2 days , 6 hours an 27 seconds with out a cigeratte.. well 28 seconds now , an I'll be darn if I bring them back into the house to barter for any thing , I hope to just clean myself of this nasty habbit, an maybe use the extra money for things like food..
> The first week I like to ripped my better half in two,just with words, poor guy didn't even know I was trying to quit. I didn't tell him in fear I would fail for I have failed a couple times before. ok 29 seconds now,,
> But he findly noticed I wasn't smoking an things have gotten so much better, at least now I can go in an pay for my gas an not look at the cigeratte section or check my purse to see if I have enought in my pack to last till tomorrow.
> 
> But NO, NO ,NO ,will I buy another pack, but Lord help us all when thoes around us don't have there smokes when things get bad..
> My better half doesn't smoke an we don't don't drink , other that water, lol ,an course don't use drugs , an I honestly wouldn't want to be around these people who life styles are daily users of this crap.. heck most will kill off there family members first .


:congrat: I'm praying for you also!! Good job........I have now been a nonsmoker for 16 months after smoking for 47 years


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## Ezmerelda

LilRedHen said:


> Chewing tobacco will take the pain and swelling from a bee or wasp sting. It has to be freshly chewed to work well. Wetting tobacco from a cigarette does not work. I remember having this remedy applied to my stings as a child when OTC meds were not plentiful and going to a doctor was only for a near death event. As a child with an earache, having smoke blown in my ear was an almost immediate relief.


And tobacco makes a good insecticide also, but I can't find my recipe! 

I had heard that if your ear ached, or was stuffy, the remedy was to light a cig and place the filter part in the ear. My aunt claims that the ear actually drew on the cig! She said her ear cleared up and she had no more problems with it. I'd be willing to try that, anything to get rid of the pain of an earache.


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## beanpicker

Thanks neldarez, I can use all the help I can get an the LORDS help is the best one can ask for.. an get .
Good job being smoke free for 16 months. I just take one day at a time now,,,, was seconds , then minutes, an soom hopeing for one week at a time.

My gril friend who come out yesterday said she an her husband both quit in 2004 an at times she still has the "wanting " for a cigeratte. 

I quit when I got PG with my first baby, then started back when the baby was 5 months old , then quit when I got PG with 2nd child an darn it started again when that child was about 8 months old ,, then years later we had a smoke free program at work so I again quit for about a year an a half , then like a fool I started again,,, each of these times I just kept telling my self it was soooooo easy to quit an I could quit any time I wanted to for I have done it before,,,,, well now that Im older, Im finding it so much harder to do so,, 
Hubby said maybe if I got PG again , ( putting the child health first ) It would be eaiser to guit. I know for sure I would quit if I got PG again ( at the age of 61) I would just take a gun to my head an no more smoking problems for me... ( just a joke folks,, ) 
I love my grand kids but I don't want to raise any more.


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## beanpicker

Oh yea, as a child I allways had ear aches, an my dad would gently blow cigeratte smoke im my ears ,,,an it did feel so good.


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## Wallrat

It's curious to me that some think gold won't be worth having...you only have to look at history to see that it has more uses than trying to buy a sack of potatoes. It might buy your son or husband out of jail, or get you through a roadblock you absolutely have to get through. Gold might also buy a piece of land 'dirt cheap' to position your family better for after things begin to return to normal. Plus, you can buy placer gold, not rounds. It has a lower gold content than coinage, but it can be divided into any amount so you can buy small items. Just a thought. I'm a goldminer so I'm biased, but it's plenty versatile even now. I live off of it. I can only imagine how much more valueable it'll become in the SHTF days. I still want to have other commodities, like food and booze, clothes and weapons, etc. But PMs are worth having.


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## BillS

I like gold coins better because that way people who don't know much about gold will still recognize it. You pay extra for gold coins but I think it's worth it. Junk silver coins are good too. If you get silver dollars they're worth about $26 each based on the melt value. It's about 67 silver dollars per one ounce gold coin based on current prices. But for having maximum value in the smallest amount of space you can't beat gold.


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## Jimmy24

Smoked for 35+ years. Got non-small cell squamous carcinoma lung cancer. Caused by smoking. Lost my left lung. Had chemo. Had to retire (not ready). It's a bitch, but my fault. I'll deal with it best I can.

Oh guess what? Ever notice there is no big attention getting months devoted to Lung Cancer (though Nov is)? That's because 85-90% of all lung cancer can be eliminated if smoking stopped. No guessing, no "well you can get it regardless", it's just bad luck.

It's pure fact. Lung cancer will kill more people this year than breast, liver, pancreatic or ovarian cancers put together. It's proven fact that smoking increases your risk at developing lung cancer, period. Yep my fault, but I'm obligated to help my fellow man by testament.

So will I store tobacco for trade? Why would I do that to my fellow man? Booze is bad too, but not as bad as tobacco, IMO.

:rantoff:

Screws, nails, cheap blankets, used basic clothes, used shoes, oil lamps and lamp oil, basic hand tools, seeds are just a few of the things I've gathered to use for trading material. Things to build some sort of semblance of society back.

Just me thinking out loud...:earthhug:

Jimmy


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## BillM

*Quiting*

Quiting smoking is somthing I attempted and finally suceeded in doing 30 years ago.

I quit cold turkey. After I quit , when I would come under stress, i would get the urge again but I resisted and eventually the urge never returned.

This is why it is so hard to quit. When you smoke, the nicotine is stored in fat cells. When you come under stress, the fat cells reliese glucose and any thing else in them. The brain recognizes the nicotine and you crave it again.

The trick is after you quit , to sucessfully resist the urge during subsiquent stress events. Eventually your cells will empty out the nicotine.


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## beanpicker

BillM , gosh I have lots & lots of fat cells, so Im doomed for years I guess. So far I have made it 5 weeks, 3 days, 12 hours an 32 minutes an 12 seconds. lol with out a cigeratte. 
One great plus is I can now use that money on Fabric , for I love sewing an trying to get some fabric ahead . 
Come shitf if you see a man runnning around with a pink shirt with yellow an blue flowers you know it may just be my man, I ready do need to get some print for men, but I sew mostly for me an the grand dughter, so I hate to stock fabric I may never use. I did get several yards of children print, so so come shitf I can make kids clothes too, 

Now it 47 minutes an 18 seconds, lol I think I can ,I think I can, I think I can, I know I can ..


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## Jimmy24

beanpicker said:


> BillM , gosh I have lots & lots of fat cells, so Im doomed for years I guess. So far I have made it 5 weeks, 3 days, 12 hours an 32 minutes an 12 seconds. lol with out a cigeratte.
> One great plus is I can now use that money on Fabric , for I love sewing an trying to get some fabric ahead .
> Come shitf if you see a man runnning around with a pink shirt with yellow an blue flowers you know it may just be my man, I ready do need to get some print for men, but I sew mostly for me an the grand dughter, so I hate to stock fabric I may never use. I did get several yards of children print, so so come shitf I can make kids clothes too,
> 
> Now it 47 minutes an 18 seconds, lol I think I can ,I think I can, I think I can, I know I can ..


WOOOHOOO!!! YES YOU CAN, YES YOU CAN, YES YOU CAN!!!

Jimmy


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## beanpicker

Thanks Jimmy 24, I have let my family down so many times trying to quit before they don't even encourage me any more to do so. So the little words mean a lot to me. 
5 weeks . 3 days, 17 hours, 12 minutes an 45 seconds,, LOL


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## stand

*that stuff will be degraded beyond utility in a year or so*

and at least that long will have to pass before you can risk doing any bartering. Only after all the fighting and diseases have killed off nearly everyone am I going to risk having any human contact at all.

Alchoholic drinking is stupid now, so when one oversight will be lethal, having your head swimming will help clean the gene pool of your stupidity. People can easily make wine out of any fruit or juice, so why would they pay for such stuff? They can grow their own pot and mushrooms, too.

Tea is a lot better for you than coffee, and can be "steeped" out of pine needles, etc. Since TP degrades to nothing in a year or so, people will have long since switched over to using old yellow pages, catalogues, corn cobs, etc, so no barter value there, either, really. A few thousand rds of are worth having for barter, but most tools, gear and materials will be lying everywhere, since 99% of the population will be dead a year after shtf.


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## LincTex

stand said:


> Since TP degrades to nothing in a year or so...


Not true at all, I have a roll in the aluminum truck bed box behind the cab (for road trips) that is from the early 90's. Not rotted or decayed at all.


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## stand

*If so, it would clog your septic system badly.*

 It's made to "bio-degrade" swiftly, for just this reason.


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## TongaTebah

*Gold and Silver*



Nadja said:


> I will disagree with most here on the gold issue. If the shtf, and you have 1,000 gold coins in oz. , what will happen if you try to trade it for a few potatoes ? How would the tator grower make any kind of change ? Right now, if you were to go to the grocery store and try and pay your bill with a 1oz rand, would the store make you change ? Silver , I think would be a far better managable source of barter.
> 
> But, cigs, oh man, that is better then gold. This is spoken from a smoker for about 50 years now.


Gold and silver (G & S) will not be great for barter. Someone brought up the point that you can not get change when you take it to the grocery store. That is possibly true. 
It is highly like likely that there will be some form of currency being used by the masses. The gold and silver are kept to convert to that currency and used to purchase items. How negotable is a 10oz bar of silver valued at $1000, $10,000, $100,000, $1,000,000, sky is the limit??? During a time of trouble you can not place a dollar value on it. How many pieces of paper is it worth? It is worth whatever the other person says it is.

What good is it then??
G&S can be used for large purchases. A house, generator, payment for someone adding on to your house, MEDICINE and MEDICAL CARE. In times of trouble how will we pay for our medical care; with a chicken or a pack of smokes? Perhaps that will suffice for little ailments but what if it is serious. How many chickens will a doctor take? Where will the doctor store them? G&S are small and transportable. MOST IMPORTANT, they are a store of wealth that can be converted to the local "currency" and hold thier value in terms of the labor/life it took you to make the money to buy them. 
A few G&S coins are excellent to have. I have heard that pilots during war carried gold coins in case they were shot down. GOOD TO HAVE TO GET YOU OUT OF A BIND. 
Gold and Silver are items that should be added to your stash AFTER, food, water, heatsources, shelter. You can not eat, drink, burn, live in G&S and DON"T ASSUME that there will always be someone to take your G&S in exchange for the other items. After WWII Germans were trading family fortunes for a meal.


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## LincTex

TongaTebah said:


> DON'T ASSUME that there will always be someone to take your G&S in exchange for the other items. After WWII Germans were trading family fortunes for a meal.


Yep - PM's will be worthless to the person who is trying to keep their family from starving. The phrase: "Not at any price... " comes to mind.


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