# Economy In Full Recovery?



## UncleJoe

*25 Questions To Ask Anyone Who Is Delusional Enough To Believe That This Economic Recovery Is Real*

If you listen to the mainstream media long enough, you just might be tempted to believe that the United States has emerged from the recession and is now in the middle of a full-fledged economic recovery. Any "recovery" that the U.S. economy is experiencing is illusory and will be quite temporary. The entire financial system of the United States is falling apart, and the powers that be can try to patch it up and prop it up for a while, but in the end this thing is going to come crashing down. ...

...But as obvious as that may seem to most of us, there are still quite a few people out there that are absolutely convinced that the U.S. economy will fully recover and will soon be stronger than ever.

So the following are 25 questions to ask anyone who is delusional enough to believe that this economic recovery is real....

*#1)* In what universe is an economy with 39.68 million Americans on food stamps considered to be a healthy, recovering economy? In fact, the U.S. Department of Agriculture forecasts that enrollment in the food stamp program will exceed 43 million Americans in 2011. Is a rapidly increasing number of Americans on food stamps a good sign or a bad sign for the economy?

*#2)* According to RealtyTrac, foreclosure filings were reported on 367,056 properties in the month of March. This was an increase of almost 19 percent from February, and it was the highest monthly total since RealtyTrac began issuing its report back in January 2005. So can you please explain again how the U.S. real estate market is getting better?

*#3)* The Mortgage Bankers Association just announced that more than 10 percent of U.S. homeowners with a mortgage had missed at least one payment in the January-March period. That was a record high and up from 9.1 percent a year ago. Do you think that is an indication that the U.S. housing market is recovering?

*#4)* How can the U.S. real estate market be considered healthy when, for the first time in modern history, banks own a greater share of residential housing net worth in the United States than all individual Americans put together?

*#5)* With the U.S. Congress planning to quadruple oil taxes, what do you think that is going to do to the price of gasoline in the United States and how do you think that will affect the U.S. economy?

*#6)* Do you think that it is a good sign that Arnold Schwarzenegger, the governor of the state of California, says that "terrible cuts" are urgently needed in order to avoid a complete financial disaster in his state?

*#7)* But it just isn't California that is in trouble. Dozens of U.S. states are in such bad financial shape that they are getting ready for their biggest budget cuts in decades. What do you think all of those budget cuts will do to the economy?

*#8)* In March, the U.S. trade deficit widened to its highest level since December 2008. Month after month after month we buy much more from the rest of the world than they buy from us. Wealth is draining out of the United States at an unprecedented rate. So is the fact that the gigantic U.S. trade deficit is actually getting bigger a good sign or a bad sign for the U.S. economy?

*#9)* Considering the fact that the U.S. government is projected to have a 1.6 trillion dollar deficit in 2010, and considering the fact that if you went out and spent one dollar every single second it would take you more than 31,000 years to spend a trillion dollars, how can anyone in their right mind claim that the U.S. economy is getting healthier when we are getting into so much debt?

*#10)* The U.S. Treasury Department recently announced that the U.S. government suffered a wider-than-expected budget deficit of 82.69 billion dollars in April. So is the fact that the red ink of the U.S. government is actually worse than projected a good sign or a bad sign?

*#11)* According to one new report, the U.S. national debt will reach 100 percent of GDP by the year 2015. So is that a sign of economic recovery or of economic disaster?

*#12)* Monstrous amounts of oil continue to gush freely into the Gulf of Mexico, and analysts are already projecting that the seafood and tourism industries along the Gulf coast will be devastated for decades by this unprecedented environmental disaster. In light of those facts, how in the world can anyone project that the U.S. economy will soon be stronger than ever?

*#13)* The FDIC's list of problem banks recently hit a 17-year high. Do you think that an increasing number of small banks failing is a good sign or a bad sign for the U.S. economy?

*#14)* The FDIC is backing 8,000 banks that have a total of $13 trillion in assets with a deposit insurance fund that is basically flat broke. So what do you think will happen if a significant number of small banks do start failing?

*#15)* Existing home sales in the United States jumped 7.6 percent in April. That is the good news. The bad news is that this increase only happened because the deadline to take advantage of the temporary home buyer tax credit (government bribe) was looming. So now that there is no more tax credit for home buyers, what will that do to home sales?

*#16)* Both Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac recently told the U.S. government that they are going to need even more bailout money. So what does it say about the U.S. economy when the two "pillars" of the U.S. mortgage industry are government-backed financial black holes that the U.S. government has to relentlessly pour money into?

*#17)* 43 percent of Americans have less than $10,000 saved for retirement. Tens of millions of Americans find themselves just one lawsuit, one really bad traffic accident or one very serious illness away from financial ruin. With so many Americans living on the edge, how can you say that the economy is healthy?

*#18)* The mayor of Detroit says that the real unemployment rate in his city is somewhere around 50 percent. So can the U.S. really be experiencing an economic recovery when so many are still unemployed in one of America's biggest cities?

*#19)* Gallup's measure of underemployment hit 20.0% on March 15th. That was up from 19.7% two weeks earlier and 19.5% at the start of the year. Do you think that is a good trend or a bad trend?

*#20)* One new poll shows that 76 percent of Americans believe that the U.S. economy is still in a recession. So are the vast majority of Americans just stupid or could we still actually be in a recession?

*#21)* The bottom 40 percent of those living in the United States now collectively own less than 1 percent of the nation's wealth. So is Barack Obama's mantra that "what is good for Wall Street is good for Main Street" actually true?

*#22)* Richard Russell, the famous author of the Dow Theory Letters, says that Americans should sell anything they can sell in order to get liquid because of the economic trouble that is coming. Do you think that Richard Russell is delusional or could he possibly have a point?

*#23)* Defaults on apartment building mortgages held by U.S. banks climbed to a record 4.6 percent in the first quarter of 2010. In fact, that was almost twice the level of a year earlier. Does that look like a good trend to you?

*#24)* In March, the price of fresh and dried vegetables in the United States soared 49.3% - the most in 16 years. Is it a sign of a healthy economy when food prices are increasing so dramatically?

*#25)* 1.41 million Americans filed for personal bankruptcy in 2009 - a 32 percent increase over 2008. Not only that, more Americans filed for bankruptcy in March 2010 than during any month since U.S. bankruptcy law was tightened in October 2005. So shouldn't we at least wait until the number of Americans filing for bankruptcy is not setting new all-time records before we even dare whisper the words "economic recovery"?

Go to the original article to get links to confirm all the above numbers and facts.
25 Questions To Ask Anyone Who Is Delusional Enough To Believe That This Economic Recovery Is Real


----------



## mosquitomountainman

Add in the "natural disasters" like volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, tornados, flooding, etc. and the world political and economic situation and it looks even worse. 

I've told our kids that in all the years I've been preparing these current times are the most unsettled I've ever seen.


----------



## Expeditioner

Very interesting post. I have been liquidating unused assets for quite sometime because "I have a bad feeling about this Lucy".


----------



## Littlebit

Unclejoe-Your the man! :2thumb: Great Post. I need to show this to ( You Know) that part of the family who thinks My sister and I have lost our minds :nuts: Kids now days have know idear whats going on passed there own cell phones, Ipads, Iphones and what ever elses that takes batteries.
Thanks :melikey:


----------



## lotsoflead

just the first sentence stopped me in my tracks, the Americans on food stamps is now over 49 million.


----------



## horseman09

IMHO we are heading for The Perfect Storm -- much of it manmade, but then throw in a natural disaster or two, coupled with a disgraceful, devious, greedy, self-serving, Marxist administration, and we will have the crisis needed for them to justify draconian laws (in the name of protecting the common good) the likes of which we have never seen. 

A number of times in our nation's history, sedition laws were imposed that resulted in jail time just for verbally disagreeing with the fed. During WW1, criticizing our involvement could get you 2 years. In the 20s, the rapidly climbing J. Edgar Hoover orchestrated "radical raids" that jailed thousands. Most were subsequently released or deported in short order, but it all stemmed from public fear, ambitious feds, and the trashing of the Constitution.

Can it happen again?


----------



## JeepHammer

Actually, the economy is doing what it always does after a pretty hard recession,

Jobs loss is trickling down,
At slightly under 10% right now and holding pretty much steady.

There are a lot of small businesses opening up, and people are finding jobs there.
Like it always happens, small business will fuel the recovery,
And like it always happens those small business owners will either sell out to larger companies, or their owners will be recruited to work for larger companies and close the small businesses as the big corporate employers get bloated,
Then in about 12 to 20 years we go through a correction again,
And the big business cuts back on bloat, and we have unemployment around 10-20% again...

I saw it in '87 when Ronnie Ray-Guns nearly bankrupted the country, and again now from GWB trying to bankrupt the country.

I swore in the first round I would NEVER allow myself to be marginalized and out of the work force!
Welding and machine schools for me! Continued my education in electronics...

Since I didn't sell off or merge my small business,
And since people are needing to make their older farm equipment/vehicles last longer,
My machining and welding services have increased.

I'm seeing more 'Custom' electronics jobs, older alternators & starters, people wanting vehicles to be wired for more modern electronics so they can mount the latest versions of planting, fertilizer, pesticide/herbicide application computers, ect.

It just baffles me they would trade in a 2 year old tractor simply because the wiring harness wasn't compatible with this years version of computer...
I guess this is teaching them it's not all about 'Bright & Shiny', but I'm getting old enough to realize every generation has to lean that for themselves...

It's surprising to me the people my age that didn't see this coming again,
But I guess it's true, stupid people are doomed to repeat their mistakes!
And when the 'Young' won't seek guidance from the 'Old', and rely on books, they aren't going to see the cycles coming either no matter how much education they have...

Anyway, when you grow your own food, make your own power, have your own local trade, You are pretty much Recession Proof,
But most people are WAY too lazy to get out of bed and work every day, all day long!
And they are WAY too lazy to learn about electronics, gardening, animal husbandry, financing, tax liability, and all the other things it takes to run a 'Farm' without falling on your face.

People think 'Dirt Farmers' are stupid because they talk slow and don't jump every time the stock market jumps up or down 100 points...
Maybe it's because they are thinking the answer over and considering it from several different view points before they pop off with some canned answer from a TV show!

*YES, the economy is recovering,*
It will be a long, slow process since big business REALLY picked the bones of the American Tax Payer!
But one thing that AMERICANS DO REALLY WELL is pick themselves up by the boot straps and make good no matter what the sh!t sandwich they were handed.

It's *not* due to people second guessing the current administration's actions.
It's from actual, hard working people realizing that there aren't any '9 to 4' jobs hanging on trees,
They are digging in, building something from scratch,
Finding a niche in the economy and making it pay for them.

They are paying off debt, saving money, staring businesses, and working their butts off instead of looking for corporate jobs so they can do as LITTLE as possible...

Pick yourself up, Dust yourself off, Find something you can do and build a proper small business around that.
DO NOT sell 'Made In China' crap to idiots that don't know any better like Wal-Mart does.
DO NOT think you can get away with 9-4 hours and expect your position to be secure.

ACTUALLY TAKE CHARGE of your surroundings, make those payments into your retirement accounts,
Pay those bills in 15 days,
DON'T BUY THE CRAP YOU CAN'T AFFORD!
Assess what you actually NEED, opposed to what you 'Want'.
Put in a FULL days work and you WILL make it!


----------



## horseman09

*jeephammer quote: "Actually, the economy is doing what it always does after a pretty hard recession,"*

Jeephammer, there is no historical precedent for the national environment which America and the world is in currently.

Socially and culturally, America has become more divided, government-dependent, weak, ignorant, and apathetic than ever in our history. Unprecedented.

Economically, the majority of America's government entities are on the verge of profound bankruptcy. Medicare, Social Security, Medicaid, Fanny Mae, Freddy Mac, the Post Office would all be in bankruptcy if they were private entites. An unresolved housing bust, with corporate and personal credit bubbles on the verge of bursting will dramatically compound the crisis. Unprecedented.

Globally, most of the Western govenments are even worse off economically that America. That gives a whole new meaning, in this global economy, to "The Dominoe Affect". Unprecedented.

Industrially, our manufacturing capacity (our saving grace in WW2) is disgracefully anemic and getting worse. Unprecedented.

The list goes on and on.

The only historical precedent I can find to our current situation is Rome; and we have a fiddler in the White House.


----------



## gypsysue

This is true: "Socially and culturally, America has become more divided, government-dependent, weak, ignorant, and apathetic than ever in our history. Unprecedented."(horseman09), 

But this is also true: "ACTUALLY TAKE CHARGE of your surroundings, make those payments into your retirement accounts,
Pay those bills in 15 days,
DON'T BUY THE CRAP YOU CAN'T AFFORD!
Assess what you actually NEED, opposed to what you 'Want'.
Put in a FULL days work and you WILL make it!" (JeepHammer)

God bless America...


----------



## mosquitomountainman

JH - I'd like to share your optimism but I don't. I believe we will "recover" eventually but it will be a long hard pull. One of the major differences today is our lack of a manufacturing base. You speak of repairing farm equipment and electronics. Where are your parts made? When I as a mechanic even our "GM original equipment" parts were mostly made in Mexico. When I worked at the Ford dealership most parts were made in Canada. The steel mills are closed. Coal mining is under attack as is oil drilling. Logging is nearly gone. The government pays our farmers to not plant crops. 

We have a service oriented economy. That means that money just changes hands. It's like a giant pyramid scheme that works great until you run out of people to contribute. You are make your living in the service sector. You don't produce anything out of raw materials that increase in value. I'm not against what you do (I made my living the same way for a long time.) It's just that service sector jobs don't increase the amount of money going into a system.

Agriculture, mining, oil production, and manufacturing take raw materials and in each step they produce goods that increase in value. The farmer takes seeds, plants them and produces more seeds in the form of crops. He starts with little and creates more. The same with mining, logging, etc. A factory takes raw materials and produces a product that has increased in value. These things bring in money rather than just shuffle it around from hand to hand. 

The countries that have growing economies have large manufacturing bases. 

Our economy has been driven for many years by borrowed "wealth." The government is trying to bring prosperity by borrowing money. Borrowing to build a factory is one thing. There you actually have a chance to produce wealth. Borrowing to fund wars and social programs without increasing real productive jobs as a dead-end street. Americans as individuals tried to borrow their way to prosperity. It didn't work. The same thing will happen to the government. If things are going to turn around we need to restore our manufacturing and agricultural base. 

The unemployment figures are cooked. They don't count the people who are classed as "no longer looking for work" (basically people whose unemployment benefits have run out). Real unemplyment is closer to 18 percent. Inflation figures are also cooked and are often qualified with statements such as "not counting fuel and food prices" inflation has remained low ... So what happens when real figures are given that do count fuel and food increases?

We have a government that is concerning itself with fringe issues instead of the things that need to happen. Despite my dislike for Clinton he did repeat the mantra "It's the economy, stupid!" during his campaign for the presidency. He kept his focus on what was important to the American people. He didn't foist a psuedo national health care for everyone bill that simply required everyone to purchase health insurance nor did he get mired down in social issues such as homosexuality and immigration reform.

Not even enough jobs are being created to employ the new people entering the work force let alone for those who've been working for years but have lost their jobs.

I don't know what the future holds regarding the economy and social unrest. I'm no youngster (I'll be 56 in a few days) nor do I frighten easily but I do see some very bad signs on the horizon. I'm quite nervous about a future North Korea, Iran and China alliance getting us nto another wrld war. Middle Eastern terrorists are also growing far more bold and effective worldwide. We are stretched to the limits alrady militarily with all these brush wars past administrations have gotten us involved in.

I do agree with you on buying merchandise made anywhere except America. Lets just keep buying the Chineese stuff and export a few more jobs over there and contribute to the vast amounts of money they funnel into their military. Then when the time comes that they're pointing the guns at us (U.S.) we'll rest easy knowing we financed the war machines they're using against us.


----------



## lotsoflead

The real US unemployment rate is 16 percent if persons who have dropped out of the labor pool and those working less than they would like are counted,If one considers the people who would like a job but have stopped looking -- so-called discouraged workers -- and those who are working fewer hours than they want, the unemployment rate would move from the official 9.4 percent to 16 percent, there are some that say the unemployment rate is up around 22%


----------



## HarleyRider

Economy in full recovery? When pigs fly!!


----------



## Expeditioner

Anybody who truly believes the numbers that are being bantied about needs to keep on drinking the kool-aid. There are some serious systemic problems that have not been addressed. Yes a few small businesses are flourishing....mine is thank goodness....but in my area I see more failures than successes. 

God save us all!


----------



## carlnet

I work in the IT consulting sector and hire about 40 to 50 people a month if you include contractors. In the last 6 months it has gotten harder to find available IT talent and so I asked my sourcing team to come up with some numbers to explain the issue. For the total labor pool in general the unemployment rate seems to be 12% to 17% depending on who you ask. On the other hand for IT people with college educations the unemployment rate is 3% (this is the pool I hire from). This explains quite a lot because 6 months ago I could have hired as many IT people as I wanted at any ridiculously low rate. Whereas today I have a hard time hiring people at very good rates.

I do not attribute the change to an improvement in the economy but instead pent up demand. Companies tried as long as they could to put off doing major IT work/upgrades after they downsized at the start of the recession. But, now they risk hurting their businesses if they do not improve/upgrade their IT. So the companies are using as many contractors and consultants as they can so they do not have to hire and take the risk of having to fire the new people.

When we see companies start to hire for the IT positions they fired people from we will then be in a real recovery.


----------



## UncleJoe

MMM said it best. Without an expansion in the manufacturing base, there is little prospect of a serious recovery and business's are not going to expand with the potential for tax hikes in 2011.
I have a small business; and yes, it's in the service arena. I took a 60% cut in revenue in 2009. This year has been a little better but I attribute a lot of this to some severe storms we had in May. Folks tend to get concerned when they see their neighbors trees falling down so they think "prevention". 
I deal with the general public every day. When I talk to people, either new or repeat customers, and the conversation turns to the economy, everyone feels that there is more pain to come. There is concern over job security and retirement savings that is coming up far shorter than what they expected it would be. 
Government is spending billions, for pet projects and entitlement programs, that they don't have by borrowing from countries that produce something the world needs. What it doesn't borrow, it prints in the form of quantitative easing. Nice harmless sounding term to sell to the masses.  Inflation will be the next step because that will ease the governments debt burden, which IMHO will not be able to be paid off; ever. 
This "recovery" is just the next, and final bubble in a series of bubbles that have grown and burst over the last 40 years.


----------



## nj_m715

Jeep, I feel like we may be two peas from the same pod with some of the projects we've both built, but I just plain disagree. I'm 35 so I may not be a experienced or wise as some other here, but I just don't see it getting better. My gut tells me that we are riding on a tarp bubble. car sales were up with cash for clunkers, home sales were up with the rebates, but those things are turning. 
Our local and state govenrments are upside down, cut backs and latoffs have cops,fireman and teachers looking for jobs. Those guy should have been set for life with those positions. Even with the cut back backs the gov. is still short, so they will be coming to us with their hand out, raising taxes. You can't get blood from a stone. 
Just look around at your friends and family. Many are working longer hrs for the same or less money, or can't find enough hrs to work. 
Look at the job numbers and like they said the foodstamp numbers.

Again I'm relatively young, I haven't lived through this before, but I just don't have a good feeling right now. I think we'll see the double dip before see the recovery. 

I save what I can for a rainy day and the rest I reinvest in myself not a 401k. I drive an '85 Mercedes on waste oil. I could go get a shiny new truck, but I'd rather put my money into other things. 2 yrs ago I put in a tarm dual fuel wood/oil boiler and a high effecientcy gas boiler right next to it. I can stay warm with heating oil, waste oil, wood or gas. I'm thinking real hard about putting up a large solar panel system. I just need to get up the stones to shell out the money. Both of those heaters were big ticket items, but I'll have them for the rest of my life and they'll make/save money for me for the rest of my life. I figure I'll break even in about 8 yrs and that's not counting rising fuel costs. Not to mention that It makes me that much more self sufficient.


----------



## lotsoflead

nj_m715 said:


> Jeep, I feel like we may be two peas from the same pod with some of the projects we've both built, but I just plain disagree. I'm 35 so I may not be a experienced or wise as some other here, but I just don't see it getting better. My gut tells me that we are riding on a tarp bubble. car sales were up with cash for clunkers, home sales were up with the rebates, but those things are turning.
> Just look around at your friends and family. Many are working longer hrs for the same or less money, or can't find enough hrs to work.
> Look at the job numbers and like they said the foodstamp numbers.
> 
> * I think we'll see the double dip before see the recovery. *.


you could be half right, I think we'll go double dip and deep depression in many parts of the country. The government is not telling the truth about unemployment firgure or anything else. Obama can't keep borrowing money to keep social programs going,99 weeks unemployment, a raise for people of welfare, money for teachers and cops.It's the liberals way of buying votes.Just wait til companies get their heath bill, many more will move out of the country as they're going to go up to pay for Obama care.there'll be nothing left here but government,state, county workers(people taking out of the system) food service people, and some people working for cash doing odd jobs for the rich.

*Fed, Citing Slowdown, to Buy U.S. Debt*

WASHINGTON - Acknowledging that the recovery has slowed, the Federal Reserve on Tuesday announced that it would use the proceeds from its huge mortgage-bond portfolio to buy long-term Treasury securities.

By buying government debt, the Fed is taking an unmistakable step to maintain the large amount of money that it pumped into the economy, starting in 2007, to prop up the financial and housing markets..

Fed, Citing Slowdown, to Buy U.S. Debt - Yahoo! Finance

*Obama signs emergency bill to halt teacher layoffs*

It is their union that is helping put us in this fix.
WASHINGTON -- Summoned back from summer break, the House on Tuesday pushed through an emergency $26 billion jobs bill that Democrats said would save 300,000 teachers, police and others from election-year layoffs. President Barack Obama immediately signed it into law.
Obama signs emergency bill to halt teacher layoffs - Forbes.com

*Beware the light at the end of the tunnel
Commentary: It's a debt train about to collide with federal obligations*
GREENWICH, Conn. (MarketWatch) -- The federal deficit is no longer an abstract long-term problem; it's a financially critical freight train hurtling down the track at alarming speed.

Here's a dramatic way to look at it: Nominal GDP is only $100 billion higher than it was back in the third quarter of 2008. That means it has been *growing at only $4 billion per month,* while new federal debt has *been accumulating at around $100 billion per month*
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/watch-out-for-the-federal-debt-freight-train-2010-08-11

Just ask your self how long you could survive if you borrowed every month to pay bills and live, eventually everyone is going to cut your credit, them how could you pay for your life style?can you say crash? if you live in one of the Blue states that is up side down, you better buy more rice and beans for the yrs ahead. everyone had dreams of their children living better than they did, i think it'll be at least three generations before they'll see that again.

*"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples' money." Margaret Thatcher*


----------



## fobhomestead

UncleJoe said:


> *25 Questions To Ask Anyone Who Is Delusional Enough To Believe That This Economic Recovery Is Real*
> 
> So the following are 25 questions to ask anyone who is delusional enough to believe that this economic recovery is real....
> 
> *#1)* In what universe is an economy with 39.68 million Americans on food stamps considered to be a healthy, recovering economy? In fact, the U.S. Department of Agriculture forecasts that enrollment in the food stamp program will exceed 43 million Americans in 2011. Is a rapidly increasing number of Americans on food stamps a good sign or a bad sign for the economy?
> 
> Go to the original article to get links to confirm all the above numbers and facts.
> 25 Questions To Ask Anyone Who Is Delusional Enough To Believe That This Economic Recovery Is Real


THIS IS EXCELLENT. :congrat: I am very happy to see that there really are people paying attention and actually researching things themselves (not just turning on one news or the other. Granted, I AM a huge GB fan, but only because I am happy to see that he is at least trying to understand). 
The reality behind my desire to homestead is because I know that our economy and way of life is in a free fall. I WORKED for Social Services in the WELFARE Department and I can honestly say that there are good people who are on hard times that need those programs. I stayed there as long as I could for them. I couldn't keep working there though because (I have severe PTSD and in their mind it meant I was going to "go postal", which is :rant:and completely propagated by DRs and their BS, and) I could no longer go against my morals and patriotic duty to stand as an American for our way. The goverment is actually WORKING on its service workers to get them to treat WELFARE like a benefit and those who come thru the door are supposed to be "customers". (hmmm... maybe emailing the Gov and her cronies and telling them their solution is crap had something to do with them thinking I am postal? :scratch) Anyway... it is what it is, and we had better prepare NOW before the masses wake up to the danger and panic sets in (aka: inflation)


----------



## kyfarmer

Just wanted to add i have some wonderful land down south for sale ( maybe a little soggy ). Think positive there is so much ya can do with swampland. With the economy poppin so good. I should be able to sale it fast. Do you think they believe the tripe they are trying to feed us. I for one am just sick of the garbage coming outa DC on an hourly not daily basis.


----------



## fobhomestead

kyfarmer said:


> Just wanted to add i have some wonderful land down south for sale ( maybe a little soggy ). Think positive there is so much ya can do with swampland. With the economy poppin so good. I should be able to sale it fast. Do you think they believe the tripe they are trying to feed us. I for one am just sick of the garbage coming outa DC on an hourly not daily basis.


 Is that sarcasm I sense? My sarcie senses are going off... I also have ocean front land in AZ for sale... It's on the internet and our government is telling me its a great deal... it must be true!!


----------



## sailaway

I am directly involved in manufacturing, seems to be kind of a jobless recovery. Employees were kept busy painting safety lines on factory floors and are now running their machine tools again. I do believe a skilled machinist can go anywhere and get a job though, we haven't produced many of them the last 30 years and the youngest ones are approaching 50.


----------



## horseman09

Claiming the economy is in recovery is like claiming the brain-dead patient is recovering because his finger twitched. Nevermind that his vitals are all heading steadily toward straight-line ..... his finger twitched so he must be getting better. Just ask the government.

Our national debt alone is enough to drown America in the next few years, not to mention corporate debt, personal debt and global debt.

On top of that, ObaMao is spending like a thief who just jacked Soro's credit card. The problem of course, is that that America-hating, Marxist traitor is spending money that you and I, our kids and our grandkids haven't even earned yet. 

Things are gonna get tough folks, the likes of which America has never experienced.


----------



## Diego2112

Normally, I would not compare America to ANY place (figurative OR literal) other than Rome (because lets face it, America is the modern day Rome, and we ARE BURNING!), but these verses stuck out in my head in a recent study:

From Revelation Chapter 18:
1 After all this I saw another angel come down from heaven with great authority, and the earth grew bright with his splendor. 2 He gave a mighty shout:

"Babylon is fallen-that great city is fallen!
She has become a home for demons.
She is a hideout for every foul[a] spirit,
a hideout for every foul vulture
and every foul and dreadful animal.*
3 For all the nations have fallen[c]
because of the wine of her passionate immorality.
The kings of the world
have committed adultery with her.
Because of her desires for extravagant luxury,
the merchants of the world have grown rich."

4 Then I heard another voice calling from heaven,

"Come away from her, my people.
Do not take part in her sins,
or you will be punished with her.
5 For her sins are piled as high as heaven,
and God remembers her evil deeds.
6 Do to her as she has done to others.
Double her penalty[d] for all her evil deeds.
She brewed a cup of terror for others,
so brew twice as much[e] for her.
7 She glorified herself and lived in luxury,
so match it now with torment and sorrow.
She boasted in her heart,
'I am queen on my throne.
I am no helpless widow,
and I have no reason to mourn.'
8 Therefore, these plagues will overtake her in a single day-
death and mourning and famine.
She will be completely consumed by fire,
for the Lord God who judges her is mighty."

9 And the kings of the world who committed adultery with her and enjoyed her great luxury will mourn for her as they see the smoke rising from her charred remains. 10 They will stand at a distance, terrified by her great torment. They will cry out,

"How terrible, how terrible for you,
O Babylon, you great city!
In a single moment
God's judgment came on you."

11 The merchants of the world will weep and mourn for her, for there is no one left to buy their goods. 12 She bought great quantities of gold, silver, jewels, and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk, and scarlet cloth; things made of fragrant thyine wood, ivory goods, and objects made of expensive wood; and bronze, iron, and marble. 13 She also bought cinnamon, spice, incense, myrrh, frankincense, wine, olive oil, fine flour, wheat, cattle, sheep, horses, chariots, and bodies-that is, human slaves.

14 "The fancy things you loved so much
are gone," they cry.
"All your luxuries and splendor
are gone forever,
never to be yours again."
--------------------------------------

Now, I'm not saying that America is the BIBLICAL Babalyon, but the fact that we seem to be headed that way is just plain SCARY.

Once your borders had no end, and your dream was like a shining light to the nations you surround. Did your golden domes reveal the frailty of the consequence, the Conqueror was real.-Kerry Livgren

As if I have to tell anyone here, prepare for the worst my friends. It's coming.

He's only philosopical when he's on painkillers ,
~Diego2112*


----------



## sailaway

Just came from a minority block party in my community, they are trying to raise money to get the kids ready for school. They are giving free hair cuts for a week at the local barbershops, trying to get 500 bookbags full of pencils and paper for the kids and working at swapping and raising money to get them shoes and public school uniforms. These are all things that I always took forgranted. Most of these people would like to work, but the gubbermint pays them not to. The jobs they would be good at have all gone over seas.


----------



## carlnet

sailaway said:


> Most of these people would like to work, but the gubbermint pays them not to. The jobs they would be good at have all gone over seas.


It is an interesting dilemma that is only going to get worse. The era of good paying factory jobs is gone and the short lived activity of exporting the jobs overseas is soon to come to an end as well. Mechanization is advancing so rapidly that soon no humans will be required to manufacture any product. The only thing holding it back now is the retooling required to produce a new product. But with constant advances that issue will be solved very soon.

The need for billions of people is over. The only issue is the human race has not evolved to meet the new reality...


----------



## rflood

I think there are glimmers in the economy but the numbers from housing are showing that we still are on the way down to the bottom. What happens after the mid-terms will be the tell, if the dems come out on the losing end, who knows what will get shoved through during the lame duck. If they hold fast or we see some balance we might get things a little slower implemented.


----------



## truthismyname33

Diego2112 said:


> Normally, I would not compare America to ANY place (figurative OR literal) other than Rome (because lets face it, America is the modern day Rome, and we ARE BURNING!), but these verses stuck out in my head in a recent study:
> 
> From Revelation Chapter 18:
> 1 After all this I saw another angel come down from heaven with great authority, and the earth grew bright with his splendor. 2 He gave a mighty shout:
> 
> "Babylon is fallen-that great city is fallen!
> She has become a home for demons.
> She is a hideout for every foul[a] spirit,
> a hideout for every foul vulture
> and every foul and dreadful animal.*
> 3 For all the nations have fallen[c]
> because of the wine of her passionate immorality.
> The kings of the world
> have committed adultery with her.
> Because of her desires for extravagant luxury,
> the merchants of the world have grown rich."
> 
> 4 Then I heard another voice calling from heaven,
> 
> "Come away from her, my people.
> Do not take part in her sins,
> or you will be punished with her.
> 5 For her sins are piled as high as heaven,
> and God remembers her evil deeds.
> 6 Do to her as she has done to others.
> Double her penalty[d] for all her evil deeds.
> She brewed a cup of terror for others,
> so brew twice as much[e] for her.
> 7 She glorified herself and lived in luxury,
> so match it now with torment and sorrow.
> She boasted in her heart,
> 'I am queen on my throne.
> I am no helpless widow,
> and I have no reason to mourn.'
> 8 Therefore, these plagues will overtake her in a single day-
> death and mourning and famine.
> She will be completely consumed by fire,
> for the Lord God who judges her is mighty."
> 
> 9 And the kings of the world who committed adultery with her and enjoyed her great luxury will mourn for her as they see the smoke rising from her charred remains. 10 They will stand at a distance, terrified by her great torment. They will cry out,
> 
> "How terrible, how terrible for you,
> O Babylon, you great city!
> In a single moment
> God's judgment came on you."
> 
> 11 The merchants of the world will weep and mourn for her, for there is no one left to buy their goods. 12 She bought great quantities of gold, silver, jewels, and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk, and scarlet cloth; things made of fragrant thyine wood, ivory goods, and objects made of expensive wood; and bronze, iron, and marble. 13 She also bought cinnamon, spice, incense, myrrh, frankincense, wine, olive oil, fine flour, wheat, cattle, sheep, horses, chariots, and bodies-that is, human slaves.
> 
> 14 "The fancy things you loved so much
> are gone," they cry.
> "All your luxuries and splendor
> are gone forever,
> never to be yours again."
> --------------------------------------
> 
> Now, I'm not saying that America is the BIBLICAL Babylon, but the fact that we seem to be headed that way is just plain SCARY.
> 
> Once your borders had no end, and your dream was like a shining light to the nations you surround. Did your golden domes reveal the frailty of the consequence, the Conqueror was real.-Kerry Livgren
> 
> As if I have to tell anyone here, prepare for the worst my friends. It's coming.
> 
> He's only philosopical when he's on painkillers ,
> ~Diego2112*


*

"Now, I'm not saying that America is the BIBLICAL Babylon, but the fact that we seem to be headed that way is just plain SCARY". 


It's time to stop being in denial!! AMERICA IS THE BABYLON!! There....I said it, it's time for the people to WAKE UP!! Seriously.*


----------



## Diego2112

truthismyname33 said:


> It's time to stop being in denial!! AMERICA IS THE BABYLON!! There....I said it, it's time for the people to WAKE UP!! Seriously.


I dont think so. I think America will no longer be a world contender when the End Time scriptures are fufilled. I could be wrong, I have been before. But I really do think America is "the one who is holding it back" mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8

7 For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back steps out of the way. 8 Then the man of lawlessness will be revealed, but the Lord Jesus will kill him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by the splendor of his coming.

THAT is why I dont think America is Babalyon. We'll be gone LONG before then!


----------



## Bigdog57

horseman09 said:


> On top of that, ObaMao is spending like a thief who just jacked Soro's credit card. The problem of course, is that that America-hating, Marxist traitor is spending money that you and I, our kids and our grandkids haven't even earned yet.


I generally liken 'bobo the illegal whitehouse clown' to a drunken sailor in a whorehouse with the Captain's stolen credit card......

BUT.... that sailor would have better taste in just what he buys.......


----------



## mrbroker

*I feel bad for some of you.*

Don't ever let anyone or anything beat you down to the level that you can't see the opportunities in front of you. I think that many of the points brought up in this thread are very valid but many are pretty short sighted. A survivor will look for the positives in any situation. Don't doom yourself by limiting your abilities based off of 'ANYONEs' words or actions. It is really sad for me to see so many on here and in my life practically giving up. Rise up and do what you can! That is what being a free American is all about. Don't place all your bets according to the words of Glenn Beck, Barack Obama, or anyone else. You are your own person and only you will determine your outcome. Personally, I am not a prepper because I fear, but because I am a responsible American. An American has the freedom to be prepared for any situation. We must be careful though to not focus so much on doom and gloom that we miss the sunshine today.

"Over-preparation is the foe of inspiration." Napoleon Bonaparte

If you are always preparing for the worst, will you be mentally prepared to help fight to make things better? Be responsible fellow preppers. Be proud that you are an American and if things come up that are against your values, then be PREPARED to fight for them. Don't shrink into your cellars.


----------



## horseman09

mrbroker, I agree with you -- I think. 

IMHO, life is about balance. On one hand, I think tossing and turning every night and being constantly fearful of armageddon is unhealthy and ultimately self defeating.

On the other hand, most Americans have had their head up their a$$es with an attitude that nothing really nasty can happen here. After all, we're like, you know, we're like, Americans and stuff and it's like, a law or it's in the like, you know, like the Bible and stuff, and it's like, in that Constitution thingy or somethin' that all that like, killing and hunger and torture and stuff, like, can't like, you know, like, happen here. :surrender: 

I have said this many times on this forum -- my apologies for being repetitive, but we Americans have had it way to good for way to long. We have failed to teach the last few generations morals, history, culture work ethics.......the list goes on.

We're gonna pay for this. Dearly.


----------



## UncleJoe

OK. It's official now. The recession is over. :scratch
I guess I wasted a lot of time doing all that gardening and canning. Now what am I suppose to do with all the leftover canning jars and lids that I've been stocking up on? 

*WASHINGTON* - It turns out the recession ended more than a year ago.

Feeling better now?

The panel that determines the timing of recessions concluded Monday that this one ended - technically, anyway - in June 2009, and lasted 18 months. The duration makes it the longest since World War II.

The recession is over! So where's the party? | Comcast.net


----------



## The_Blob

UncleJoe said:


> OK. It's official now. The recession is over. :scratch
> I guess I wasted a lot of time doing all that gardening and canning. Now what am I suppose to do with all the leftover canning jars and lids that I've been stocking up on?
> 
> *WASHINGTON* - It turns out the recession ended more than a year ago.
> 
> Feeling better now?
> 
> The panel that determines the timing of recessions concluded Monday that this one ended - technically, anyway - in June 2009, and lasted 18 months. The duration makes it the longest since World War II.
> 
> The recession is over! So where's the party? | Comcast.net


send them to ME! :wave: ... along with any spare tinfoil hats you have :sssh:


----------



## mosquitomountainman

UncleJoe said:


> OK. It's official now. The recession is over. ...


:lolsmash::lolsmash::lolsmash::lolsmash::lolsmash::lolsmash:  :gaah:

Now did they figure this out by themselves or did Owe-bama tell them what to say?


----------



## NaeKid

mrbroker said:


> If you are always preparing for the worst, will you be mentally prepared to help fight to make things better? Be responsible fellow preppers. Be proud that you are an American and if things come up that are against your values, then be PREPARED to fight for them. Don't shrink into your cellars.


But - what if I am not a proud American, but, a proud Canadian? Will this apply to me as well? :dunno:


----------



## nj_m715

Only if you add "EH" to the end of the sentence. 

I'm a proud Canadian, eh.


----------



## Woody

Agreed, if y’all add enough of those, you’re in. Heck, I’d even be willing to loan a firearm or two since they’ve been gobbling up all of yours.


----------



## NaeKid

Woody said:


> Agreed, if y'all add enough of those, you're in. Heck, I'd even be willing to loan a firearm or two since they've been gobbling up all of yours.


I have the 4 basics right now as far as projectile systems go.

Silent = scoped CrossBow

Quiet = scoped .22lr semi

Loud and intimidating = 12 guage semi

Loud and precise = scoped .303

I am allowed to own "small" - but - haven't found the right small ones yet for the right price ...

Oh ya - cross-border lending is kind of discouraged - from both sides of the border. For me to bring toys south I need to have lots of paper-work filled out and verified months before I would attempt the trip. For you to bring toys north, it seems to be a little easier ... :gaah:


----------



## fobhomestead

NaeKid said:


> Oh ya - cross-border lending is kind of discouraged - from both sides of the border. For me to bring toys south I need to have lots of paper-work filled out and verified months before I would attempt the trip. For you to bring toys north, it seems to be a little easier ... :gaah:


That is when you just come on down to my place and store your toys here... I would let ya.... only if you pinky swear not to go on some crazy shooting spree though, eh?? :ignore:


----------



## NaeKid

fobhomestead said:


> That is when you just come on down to my place and store your toys here... I would let ya.... only if you pinky swear not to go on some crazy shooting spree though, eh?? :ignore:


I don't work for the post-office :sssh:


----------



## Tirediron

So if the reccesion is over does that mean the depression has started cause even in the land of blind bliss that surrounds Calgary's oil sector the money just isn't flowing like it should be if everything is bright and rosey EH!

:gaah:

In the event that the US economy crashes we should have a couple of weeks of denial time before it sinks in here :scratch


----------



## nj_m715

The news reported that the amount of people living below the poverty level is now the highest that it's ever been in the 50 yrs that they have been keeping records on it. 
The dollar's going down, gold/silver are going up, the government is debt, fire,police and teachers are losing their jobs and unemployment is still near 10%????

Where's the recovery? I feel they are using wishful thinking to manifest a recovery.

They can say what they want, but it doesn't match what I'm seeing. 
As the say: I'm from Missouri, you need to SHOW ME!


----------



## NaeKid

Recession = everything going downhill at a rapid pace

Depression = what happens when everything going downhill stops at the bottom of the valley

Ya - the MSM (*M*ain *S*tream *M*edia) is telling us that the recession is over, so, go spend all your money on frivolous things. What the MSM isn't telling us is that we hit rock-bottom and are fully into a depression. Prices of housing is "expected" to go up, so, *buy-now!!!* because the prices will not last long. What I am seeing is that prices are still dropping and I don't see any signs of that slowing down anytime soon and then rising.

BigBusiness knows that the only way to keep money flowing into their pockets is to get people into regular payments. Banks are not approving everyone, so, the BigBusiness (Chevy, Ford, Dodge, Honda, Toyota, etc) are all doing in-house loans at the lowest rates that they can afford - just so that there is that hook into regular flowing cash.

We might be able to spend our way out of these problems, but, that money has to come from somewhere. The game of monopoly is almost over again, the players who have everything have sucked all the money out of the other players - who are now quitting the game - because they have lost everything.


----------



## nj_m715

My feelings exactly, you just explained it better.


----------



## Woody

NaeKid said:


> We might be able to spend our way out of these problems, but, that money has to come from somewhere. The game of monopoly is almost over again, the players who have everything have sucked all the money out of the other players - who are now quitting the game - because they have lost everything.


And I do believe it is going to continue to spiral. With less folks paying taxes (due to unemployment), more folks drinking at the trough (those same folks) and Uncle Obama still proposing spending what he doesn't have, it can't last for long. The only one left to buy the US debt is the Federal Reserve corp. And they can only afford it because they print the money to buy it with!

Now, even though the common working people (you and I) think things are grim, there are people who think we are actually in a recovery stage and things are great. First is a group I talked with from Seattle, WA. They had just bought a new home in a great neighborhood and were talking about taking trips and their new cars and all. So, these seem like folks with lots of money and even losing 20 - 30% of what they had, still leaves them with more than they know what to do with. I couldn't chat with them too long and never mentioned how things look from down here where I am. The only things we had in common were we are bipeds, breathed oxygen and exhaled CO2.

Second group is folks in academia, professors and their wives (true socialists). This is a fun group to chat with and I see 3 or 5 times a year. According to them it is all rainbows and unicorns in their little world! Things are back to normal, not that they really ever changed for these folks, and all the MSM news does is spread nasty rumors. The internet also needs to be 'monitored' and should only be used for its intended purpose, research and sharing research with like minded academic types. We really do need to help world poverty and the US should throw money around to the rest of the world in military and aid. After all, we have had things way too good for too long and it is time we spread the wealth and protect those who can not protect themeslves. They give time and money to charity, ride a bike (or take the campus bus) only 'occasionally' use their 1 car and can not see why anyone would complain about paying their fair share in taxes. These are folks who live on campus (nice places too!). Get meals and benefits as part of their 'package' so only go to the store to buy wine and crackers for home or food for the dinner party. They eat out most of the time. I do have fun chatting with these folks but nothing is going to change their mind. According to them, y'all here are the 'terrorist' types Obama has been talking about and homeland security (bless those guys) are hunting down. You gun toting, ammo stocking, supply hording, militant militia forming masses are going to be the downfall of this country!!! Put your trust in the government, that is what they are for and they are looking out for your best interests.

These folks know I have firearms, garden, live in a trailer (excuse me; modular, low-cost dwelling in the lower income outlying areas) and work for a living but I'm not like the rest of 'those people'. No, they do not know I am a prepper or the extent of my preps! I am an honest hard working man who just needs to give it that little extra effort to make a real success out of myself. I can tell them a thousand times I am happy where I am and how I live but they just do not get it. Don't get me wrong, I love these folks and they really do have the best intentions in mind. And, there are lots of folks like this. So when you see polls and are surprised at the results, consider what group or area the poll was taken in. Hey, if I lived in a place like Duke University or UNC Chapel Hill I would most likely have unicorns prancing through my back yard also! And no, you can not shoot imaginary animals for food because there are no firearms allowed on campus.


----------



## carlnet

Woody said:


> there are people who think we are actually in a recovery stage and things are great. First is a group I talked with from Seattle, WA. They had just bought a new home in a great neighborhood and were talking about taking trips and their new cars and all.


These are the types of people I employ and they are exactly as you described. Mine are all in IT and see nothing but rosy skies. I never discuss topics that might "scare" them.



> Second group is folks in academia, professors and their wives (true socialists).


On one hand I pity these people as when we start the long road down they will be clueless and completely unprepared. On the other hand they have been raping the public by providing shoddy educations, at ultra inflated prices, and sitting on their butts collecting pay checks.

Even if the SHTF does not happen for a long time they are going to get a rude awakening when people stop paying their over inflated prices for sub standard educations. I have been looking for funding to start an online University that would provide the same level of education for less than half the price. If I don't make it happen someone else will and our current crop of overpriced schools will fade into obscurity.


----------



## mosquitomountainman

NaeKid said:


> ... The game of monopoly is almost over again, the players who have everything have sucked all the money out of the other players - who are now quitting the game - because they have lost everything.


I think that's the best analogy I've heard describing the present world economic situation.

The reason it happens is because most Western Civilization economies are service oriented. They do not produce wealth ... they only redistribute it. Eventually the money runs out because the people with the power/money/investments bleed the others out of the game.

For us to become a "producing" society that actually creates wealth we'd need to concentrate on agriculture (farming, forestry, trapping/fur-harvesting, etc.), mining and drilling. Industries that begin with raw materials and increase their value at each step of processing. All of these are under attack by environmental wackos and an unfriendly government and court system. For any economist to believe that we can ever attain our former economic status without relaxing regulations on these industries and encouraging their growth is foolish.

Unfortunately, the only thing the present administration wants to do it take the money from the "rich" and redistribute it to the "poor." (Generally defined as those who can get them re-elected.) Of course during this time of "transferring the wealth" a large part of it will stay in the "government's" pockets. It won't actually "fix" anything but by the time they've bled the "rich" dry they'll (government) be in complete control. Of course this is socialism and then we'll all be in the same boat as Cuba and Russia. And like them we'll have a population that's been told all their life that the "rich" deserve to support them so it'll be virtually impossible to motivate them to do anything on their own to improve their situation. Then you'll have riots such as those going on in places like Greece where the people don't care about anything but getting back their benefits even if it wrecks the economy for theim and their children. After all --- the government "owes" them!

The scary thing is that I believe we're almost there now.


----------



## Tirediron

Canada's economy has been based on selling raw materials wholesale and buying manufactured goods retail for years, and the manufacturing sector employees kept electing an anti manufacturing government.
A lot of people around the world held the belief that America could not fail and bought the US dollar even in the event of stupid decisions. I don't see how it won't get worse especially with the conspicus consumption habits people have adopted.
The service sector can't last that long either when most consumer goods can be bought cheaper than repaired , because they are manufactured in 3rd world sweat shops. Waite for China to build a fairly reliable SUV with all the bells and whistles,


----------



## carlnet

Tirediron said:


> Waite for China to build a fairly reliable SUV with all the bells and whistles


They already do. It is called the Jeep Grand Cherokee from three models back. Currently they only build it for internal consumption. And it is the last Jeep GC built before jeep turned the GC into a grocery getter.


----------



## horseman09

Is the economy in full recovery? :lolsmash::lolsmash::lolsmash::lolsmash::lolsmash::lolsmash::lolsmash::lolsmash:

That's a good one.


----------



## RoadRash

Economy .....
Automotive built North America , then we out source any of the hard jobs to mexico , china. All the good manufacturing jobs left because of corporations greed and our need for cheaper goods. Look at Detroit a couple of assenbly plants left ,the steel industry. We used to build what we needed fridges stoves cars all outsourced now. It may cost a little bit more but I try to buy American / Canadian most of the time. Do not drive an import. We have become a throw away society, dependant on the government which is what they want. just my .02 
L8R RR


----------



## carlnet

roadrash said:


> All the good manufacturing jobs left because of corporations greed and our need for cheaper goods.


Rather common misconception.... Jobs are outsourced due to cost. Labor in NA priced itself out of a job in a global economy. Why would anyone pay an uneducated assembly person a large salary especially when it could be done elsewhere cheaper?

More interestingly yet. With robotics why would you pay a person at all? As soon as the cost to operate a factory, build a product overseas and then ship it home is greater than it costs to roboticise a factory in the US all of the manufacturing will move back home. But no new jobs will be created only a reduction in the trade deficit.

The days of large, uneducated, well paid workforces are over. The writing has been on the wall for years. We have cheap transportation and world peace which improves the efficiency of trade to blame for the loss of jobs in NA. That very efficiency of trade is what improves the ability of capital and goods to move across borders. This enables other peoples to enjoy some of the exceptional standard of living enjoyed by NA. But on the other hand reduces people in NA's standard of living as it is being shifted elsewhere.

If you want your standard of living back you need to either start world war III or increase the cost of transportation to where it is prohibitive to ship products globally. Of course the increase in transportation will happen naturally over time due to the scarcity of energy. Most of the worlds transportation is based on oil and even if you do not believe the fact that there is a limited supply of it there is also a limited ability to produce it. So either limited supply or limited demand will or both will drive the cost of transportation up and at some point make the production of goods overseas prohibitive.

When manufacturing moves back home there is a very good chance Canada and Mexico will benefit greatly. Both states have very low expenditures on their military and have been able to do so due to their strategic significance to the US. This by the way is also what has allows Canada to have their socialistic programs and afford them. Whereas Mexico has squandered this peace dividend due to their exceptionally corrupt government. If Canada had to pay for a military to protect themselves they would go broke. Sorry I digress but the low expenditures and close proximity to the US will improve the chances for the manufacturing to move to both Canada and Mexico. So in the short run high oil prices will hurt all NA but over time Canada should come out better unless your socialistic government ruins it for you.


----------



## Elinor0987

carlnet said:


> If you want your standard of living back you need to either start world war III or increase the cost of transportation to where it is prohibitive to ship products globally.


Imposing trade tariffs is another option, but I wouldn't hold my breath and wait for that to happen. There's been a slight mentioning of this in the media suggested by a few members of congress. The reality of the situation is they are dependent upon foreign buyers of treasuries so that they can fund their pork projects and buy more votes at taxpayers expense. As long as we have leaders that are more concerned with lining their own pockets and winning the next election, nothing significant will be done to alleviate the unemployment problem here in America. 
November can't get here quick enough.:gaah:


----------



## carlnet

Elinor0987 said:


> Imposing trade tariffs is another option


The issues with trade tariffs is that you get them imposed back on you and then you are in exactly the place you were in before. Which means you then have to impose more and it becomes a vicious cycle that never produces the results you are looking for... In other words though you are right they are an option they are a very ineffective option.


----------



## carlnet

Elinor0987 said:


> The reality of the situation is they are dependent upon foreign buyers of treasuries so that they can fund their pork projects and buy more votes at taxpayers expense. As long as we have leaders that are more concerned with lining their own pockets and winning the next election, nothing significant will be done to alleviate the unemployment problem here in America.


Now you have hit on the right issue. It is the elected officials, at all levels of government, that "we the people" have put into power and then not held responsible for their actions.

An interesting point from history, worth keeping in mind, is that as populations increase freedoms are reduced and governments become more socialistic. It is a natural process that is required to deal with the increase in populations and all of their wants. The only solution is war or disease.


----------



## nj_m715

All of those robot factories need to be built, programmed and maintained. What ever is built will need to be transported and the trucks doing the transporting need to be driven, dispatched, and maintained. At least a few jobs will come along with that. It might not be a building full of people like before, but it's not an empty building like it is now.


----------



## gypsysue

I agree with carlnet on a lot of that. When we're earning money, we want top dollar. When we're spending money, we want to pay bottom dollar.

It doesn't work that way very long.


----------



## The_Blob

roadrash said:


> Economy .....
> Automotive built North America , then we out source any of the hard jobs to mexico , china. All the good manufacturing jobs left because of corporations greed and our need for cheaper goods. Look at Detroit a couple of assenbly plants left ,the steel industry. We used to build what we needed fridges stoves cars all outsourced now. It may cost a little bit more but I try to buy American / Canadian most of the time. Do not drive an import. We have become a throw away society, dependant on the government which is what they want. just my .02
> L8R RR


and exactly what companies' automobiles are cheaper now? (hint: it isn't "American" (is that term even eppropriate anymore?) car companies' products)


----------



## carlnet

nj_m715 said:


> All of those robot factories need to be built, programmed and maintained. What ever is built will need to be transported and the trucks doing the transporting need to be driven, dispatched, and maintained. At least a few jobs will come along with that. It might not be a building full of people like before, but it's not an empty building like it is now.


You are right. The question then becomes what form of transportation is used? Trains use significantly less fuel per pound to move a good a mile but take longer. So will people be willing to pay the premium to get it there faster by truck or less to get it there by train? But you are still right either way because after the train drops it off someone still needs to move it to and from the consumer and factory.

We have a very interesting 50 years ahead of us. I don't bet and I gave up Tarot cards (grin) so I have no clue if we will maintain the peace or have another war or get hit by a super bug. Either way everyone on this board will be ready.


----------



## Elinor0987

carlnet said:


> The issues with trade tariffs is that you get them imposed back on you and then you are in exactly the place you were in before. Which means you then have to impose more and it becomes a vicious cycle that never produces the results you are looking for...


That depends. If the US had an equal trade balance with other countries where we exported the same amount of goods as we import, it could turn into a vicious cycle. We have a serious trade imbalance where we import much more than we export. In addition, some countries are intentionally manipulating their currency and de-valuing it (at the expense of their citizens) just to give it a competitive trade advantage. This is why jobs are being shipped overseas in droves and unemployment is so high. The argument that was made by the few members of congress that actually did speak up about this is that if these countries weren't manipulating their currency and would allow the value of it to appeciate to a natural level, it would cost more to have goods manufactured overseas and many companies would eventually start manufacturing here again. One of the reasons for that is if it costs the same to make something overseas as it does here, companies would actually save money in shipping costs if they made things here. I'll add the links as soon as I find the articles I read about this.


----------



## carlnet

The_Blob said:


> and exactly what companies' automobiles are cheaper now? (hint: it isn't "American" (is that term even eppropriate anymore?) car companies' products)


The problem with absolute comparisons is that they do not take into account the value of the currency at the time verses the value now. Of course the problem with relative comparisons is that they depend on what you are using to compute your factor...

Since I like to cheat here is a good site that gives you a choice of factors to use for your comparison. You may be surprised at how cheap or depending on the factor you favor expensive things are today vs in the past.

Measuring Worth - Relative Value of US Dollars

I think your real point is that at any price there are no NA cars to buy. But that is our fault for buying cheaper imports rather than just keeping our old cars and demanding that NA based companies produce what we want.


----------



## carlnet

Elinor0987 said:


> That depends. If the US had an equal trade balance with other countries where we exported the same amount of goods as we import, it could turn into a vicious cycle. We have a serious trade imbalance where we import much more than we export. In addition, some countries are intentionally manipulating their currency and de-valuing it (at the expense of their citizens) just to give it a competitive trade advantage. This is why jobs are being shipped overseas in droves and unemployment is so high. The argument that was made by the few members of congress that actually did speak up about this is that if these countries weren't manipulating their currency and would allow the value of it to appeciate to a natural level, it would cost more to have goods manufactured overseas and many companies would eventually start manufacturing here again. One of the reasons for that is if it costs the same to make something overseas as it does here, companies would actually save money in shipping costs if they made things here. I'll add the links as soon as I find the articles I read about this.


A such, it is a good argument and stands well on its own. Unfortunately when you introduce other factors into the mix it starts to fall short.

1. The rise in cost to produce goods by China not manipulating their currency will drive prices in the US up significantly in the short term (10 years or so) without any change in wages. So if China did not manipulate their currency which keeps the cost of consumer goods low you and I would would pay a lot more for an item.

2. The argument is based on the assumption that manufacturing would move back to the US is not a good assumption as wage costs and government regulations in the US and Canada will make producing the goods in another country much more attractive. AKA manufacturing will move from China to somewhere in South America or possibly Africa.

3. The US government has made the cost of currency flow in and out of the country much higher than it was in the past making us a less efficient place to store wealth. So people with capital will not place that wealth in the US and instead place it elsewhere making investment in new factories less inviting for foreign capital.


----------



## Elinor0987

carlnet said:


> 1. The rise in cost to produce goods by China not manipulating their currency will drive prices in the US up significantly in the short term (10 years or so) without any change in wages. So if China did not manipulate their currency which keeps the cost of consumer goods low you and I would would pay a lot more for an item.
> 
> 2. The argument is based on the assumption that manufacturing would move back to the US is not a good assumption as wage costs and government regulations in the US and Canada will make producing the goods in another country much more attractive. AKA manufacturing will move from China to somewhere in South America or possibly Africa.
> 
> 3. The US government has made the cost of currency flow in and out of the country much higher than it was in the past making us a less efficient place to store wealth. So people with capital will not place that wealth in the US and instead place it elsewhere making investment in new factories less inviting for foreign capital.


Those are all good points. The likelihood of the government easing up some of its regulations to make it easier for manufacturers to produce things here is slim, so we're equally responsible for the mess that we're in. It just makes me wonder if it's possible to reverse course and go back to an economy that is viable enough to allow ample production and manufacturing, or have we reached a point of no return?


----------



## carlnet

Elinor0987 said:


> ... or have we reached a point of no return?


Is an interesting question and one that you are likely to get as many responses to as the number of times you ask it.

Prepping by nature is a response to a negative. As such many peppers come across in a negative way and over time many become very negative in their outlooks. With this in mind do not be surprised if you get more negative responses to this question than positive... Grin.


----------



## Tennessepreppers

I believe the government wants to change the definition of full recovery to mean a stop the loss of.......... you fill in the blank not a return to times prior too. History tells us there will be another world war and our enemies know a rich America can't be beat so they bankrupt us so we can't afford to fight. Take our manufacturing jobs so we can't convert them into war time factories and feminize the USA population so we have no will to fight.


----------



## mosquitomountainman

Tennessepreppers said:


> I believe the government wants to change the definition of full recovery to mean a stop the loss of.......... you fill in the blank not a return to times prior too. History tells us there will be another world war and our enemies know a rich America can't be beat so they bankrupt us so we can't afford to fight. Take our manufacturing jobs so we can't convert them into war time factories and feminize the USA population so we have no will to fight.


We didn't do too bad in WW2. Worse economic times than now.

The definition of "recovery" does seem to need a little explaining by our government though.


----------



## Tennessepreppers

During ww2 we still had factories to convert to war time factories we also had a male population that had not been nuetured and did not owe our potential enemies more than we could ever repay. We had hardly any debt as a individual or a nation. Nor was our military so restricted in their rules of engagement.


----------



## CulexPipiens

Re-opening this can of worms. 

I just read through all the responses and admit that I agree with a lot of points however I did not see one, that my wife and I share, listed.

The local economic effect. A lot of states, counties and cities are going broke too. Many in my area have been doing massive cuts to avoid bankruptcy. These cuts include police and fire personal. One nearby city already said that with the latest round of cuts where they layed off 6 more LEOs, that all responses will be strictly reactionary. No preventative measures. No patrols, etc. To me this screams of rapid increases in crime. 

All we need is one racial shooting from someone protecting their home or family to trigger mass riots, looting, etc. With the severly limited LEOs situation, do you think they'll be trying to stop unrest? or protecting their own families (as the rest of us will be doing)? 

As much as I look at the big picture and everything that's wrong, the little picture might be the catalyst and causes me as much if not more concern.


----------



## gypsysue

You're right, culex. In our county they cut the library, the county nurses, and one other department, by a considerable amount. They cut the library money by 40%, the county nurses by 24%, and I can't remember what the third department was.

Services are dwindling and employees are overworked.


----------



## Woody

I hear a lot about Police, fire, libraries and all being cut back on too. What I never hear is about any cuts to the offices that are making the decisions about what services are to be cut.


----------



## nj_m715

I get a kick out of the staff when I go in to pay my tax bill. There is always some sort of silliness going on like they're all wearing sweaters in the summer because the air conditioner is so cold you can hang meat, or the windows are cracked in the winter and the girls are wearing shorts. But I guess it's easy to be wasteful when it's not your money that's being wasted.


----------



## sailaway

Woody said:


> I hear a lot about Police, fire, libraries and all being cut back on too. What I never hear is about any cuts to the offices that are making the decisions about what services are to be cut.


I agree, look at the DOE, Pres. Carter set it up to wean us off foreign energy. They are now over 90,000 and we rely on foreing oil more than ever.


----------

