# Weapons as Tools



## Geistmacher (Sep 24, 2011)

Weapons are Tools

Almost everyone has seen the TV commercials that show a wonder tool that can fit every nut and bolt, every screw, and allow you to fix every broken part on you car, and still fit in your pocket. As most handymen know, there is no such practical tool.

Weapons are tools. Each performs a specific task very well, and other task not so well.

In a survival situation there are a couple tools that make life much easier.

First is the human body, and the knowledge and wisdom it contains.
This tool will allow you to make all other tools and use them efficiently. This tool, once supplied with training, needs only food and water to function. This tool will get you food without using up irreplaceable ammo. My tool is a lifetime of very special training and experience.

Second is the knife.
A strong knife with a full wide tang through the handle, with no artsy cut outs in the metal. This is the tool that will help you make a shelter, fire, and prepare food much easier than using your teeth. The knife needs to be big enough to do the job and not so big as to be cumbersome. It should have a cross guard to protect the fingers and a grip that is not slippery when wet. The blade should be sharp enough to cut without hacking, as the knife is not a good club. This tool needs occasional care to protect it from corrosion, and sharpening to enhance it's function. The range of the knife is limited to just beyond the reach of the user. The knife does not run out of ammo nor make much noise in it's use. My choices are the Tekut Ares Combat and the Tekut Ares Folder. The handles are G10. The blade is heavy, strong, and the steel the best I have seen in any knife for the price. The blades are a Chromium, Vanadium, Molybdenum based stainless, with a Titanium Nitride flat black coating. Workmanship is excellent and the knives come hair shaving sharp. I added a Leatherman Wave tool as well to my kit. Always include a sharpening device in your kit to maintain the edge.

Third is the staff.
A long stout stick will give you comfort on a hike. The staff can be attached to the knife to further the knife's reach. The staff can be used with lethal results in defense of your person against less armed assailants, or animals. The staff is quiet, like the knife. The staff can support you in rough or soft terrain. You can get a staff using the knife and in almost every environment. My staff is made from Persimmon wood, urethane coated and with a steel spike and ferule. I wrapped the handle with 550 black paracord.

Fourth is the firearm.
This is the subject of greatest contention in the survival community. It seem everyone has a favorite firearm.

In choosing the firearm, one should first look at the purpose it will fill. If you are hunting, a small concealable derringer will not do very well. If you need a deep cover firearm for concealment and defense while in public, the 12 gauge shotgun is not going to do well. If you are planning on surviving a firefight against multiple enemies, then that .22 Cal rifle is going to be useless. No one gun will do it all. Some guns will do several things well. A firearm is always better than a sharpened stick until you are out of ammo. Firearms make noise. Noise can spell disaster if you are detected. Remember you must know your firearm well, and shoot it well. A miss with a 7mm magnum rifle at 200 yards is still a miss, and a hit in the brain with a .22 rim fire pistol at 200 yards is still a hit.

These are my choices for one man, to two man, mobility, your mileage will vary. This list is not the best or the only as your choices need to fit your specific needs and environment.

.22 Cal pistol, Ruger 22/45 in stainless steel.
This is a pistol I shoot very well. A proper neck shot on a deer will drop it like a rock at greater ranges than most will believe possible. The pistol is small and light weight. The five hundred rounds of ammo takes up little room and weighs less than most “Assault Rifles.” This is a hunting weapon when the noise is not a problem. I choose this weapon on the bases of weight, ammo supply, and effective hunting range. I am choosing heavy woodlands and wetlands for my survival environment. This pistol will be plenty for the job.

5.56 mm Nato M4 carbine.
My rifle is set up with a rail top, no sights. I added Wilson Combat flip up front and rear sights. I put a half inch riser under a non-magnifying red dot type optic. The sights when up, are dead center of the optic and allows me to use both without removing either. This came out like a work of art. This rifle is set up for close firepower in a defensive capacity. I choose my environment to match the rifle's limitations. 240 rounds of ammo rounds out the package. I choose not to put lights or lasers on the rifle. Just like the tracer ammo, lights and lasers work both ways. The rifle is very light compared to many other choices, and the ammo is readily available and in this case interchangeable with .223 cal. Overall the ammo is light and effective at great range.

.45 ACP Model 1911.
This weapon is for close defense and concealment. 50 rounds of ammo. This is a proven firearm for defensive purposes. Enough said.

Do not forget to include tools, spare parts, and cleaning kit for the firearms. If it does not go bang, it is not much good as a spear. Remember that without resupply of ammo, the firearms will soon be useless. Be prepared to use the old ways of hunting with snare and primitive weapons. Waste not, want not.

My opinion for what it is worth.


Geist

Luck favors the prepared.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

Geistmacher said:


> Weapons are Tools
> 
> Almost everyone has seen the TV commercials that show a wonder tool that can fit every nut and bolt, every screw, and allow you to fix every broken part on you car, and still fit in your pocket. As most handymen know, there is no such practical tool.
> 
> ...


Altho some will surely disagree with you on the choice of firearms and the amount of ammo, I (for the most part) agree with your choices and commend you on an excellent post.
I like a .22 revolver in that type of survival situation, but totally agree on the M-4 and 1911.

In fact I have two hundred rounds of .22, fifty rounds of .45 and an extra 30rd. mag and sixty rounds of .223 in my butt pack along with 3 days rations, a small multi cal. cleaning kit, 550 cord, several utility knives, multitool, extra socks, fire starter and several other good to have items. yep it is a little on the heavy side and packed cram full, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

I am old school and still use all LBE (or ALICE) gear. I have a "six pack" carrier on one side of my web belt and a three mag pouch on the other for a total of 270 rds. in nine 30rd mags. I also keep a loaded thirty rounder in my weapon because if it ain't loaded when TSHTF, that ain't the time to fumble for a mag, you might as well have a rock.
I have the .22 revolver on the belt next to the mag pouch and a thigh rig for my 1911. My fighting knife is a K-Bar Tanto with a seven inch blade (and yep it will shave) and I also have my Gerber Gator Jr. on my side.

I posted all of this as an example of what you were talking about and to let other folks know that even at 64yrs. old thats a load that I can still hump a considerable distance before my old legs need a break. So you youngsters out there should have no problem. Right?


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## dragon5126 (Nov 30, 2008)

I agree, I disagree... it dont matter... generically you hit the nail on the head. Absolutely no arguement there. But I am in a slightly different boat. I own an arsenal, literally. Between my family and myself, our Bots and Bovs, we can grab most of it and run. But when the bottom line is the deciding factor, circumstances are what will determine the choices that are made. Am I going to be forced to stay Urban? Shotguns and ARs are the choices... Rural, the shotties are not the best and will be replaced with something in the 7.62x51 caliber like my G3 and AR10s... Handguns... well they are dependent on the shooters comfort level, most enjoy the 9mm and I cant argue that considering the kid's accuracy with them. The Frau and I have no issues with the .45 and it's superior power so we will carry both. Particularly since a .45 is her edc piece. For me that straddles me with three... My edc is a .40... her edc and mine are the result of professional obligations... so it would be a waste of tome to dump them until they are depleted. The 9mm is only chosen for one reason for our uses... the lowest common denominator being the youngest child (14 yrs) has issues with larger calibers at this point, and this allows us to stick with mated magazines and ammunition among us. The rifles are selected in pairs but are supplied in four of each caliber. Since the kids were originally trained with .22 handguns, they are an obvious item in each person's bog. Food aquisition is tantamount to surviving. As for noise, cb caps work nicely... But above all thepoint I am making is that this is all SITUATIONAL. I can carry multiple handguns with no issue. I carry my edc on my right hip. I can throw a .45 on in a shoulder rig and a 9mm in a cross drawall with multiple magazines and not notice any of them, but I stand 6'7" and weigh 275. Other people wouldn't be able to do the same while carrying other gear. Again, its situational, and dependant on what is going to be taken and left. For example, if we were forced to abandon vehicles and leave weapons, Parts would be removed for repairs, which is why these specific weapons were chosen. "Battlefield" repairable. 

Now it sounds like I am spending all my time dealing with firearms. This is because they require the most thought and effort to deal with, as they can create the greatest issues if the time is not taken to choose wisely and train with them properly. No other singular area can be cause for more concern. The safety issues they bring up alone are substantial. The skill to use them not insignificant. However, they are not the primary items in the list. They are, in fact, the very last. 
First and formost is the brain. Knowledge and skill has to be the most important skill above all. Without it no singular tool will be of use. with is a rock canbe a vital tool. My father was aproduct of the Great Depression. He taught me that you will not be able to pay someone to do whatever needs to be done every time you need something done, so you have to be able to be self sufficient. This also prevents others from taking advantage of you. Ive spent my life learning every skill I could. From medical knowledge to blacksmithing. Ive got it covered... And Ive taught many of these skills to others. Other than what I have in my pockets and clothing sufficient for the climate and season I really dont NEED to take anything with me to survive. b But what I choose to take is to make it substanially easier and to allow my family and I to THRIVE, not simply survive, long term, So dont take my comments about the firearms as the comments of an arm chair survivalist or a wannabe Burt Gummer. I HAVE been at this over 40 years, and have chosen my gear carefully over time, and have had time to collect it that few other have had.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

If you think a .22 is a good choice, please read this.

I was watching a show called the FBI files on ID tv. The FBI was investigating a mob gang in Washington DC (I could be wrong about the city). On of the enforcers in the mob turned and became an informant. The mob found out and invited the unlucky guy to a meeting. While the informant was sitting at a table another mobster came up behind him and shot him 3 times in the back of the head with a .22LR revolver. The informant took the gun away from the assasin and shot him with it then he proceded to beat the crap out of another guy in the room (he died). After being shot 3 times, he left the room went to his car and drove himself to the hospital. He had a full recovery with no brain damage.

Food for thought.

I will never depend a on a .22 caliper for protection!


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

Tweto said:


> If you think a .22 is a good choice, please read this.
> 
> I was watching a show called the FBI files on ID tv. The FBI was investigating a mob gang in Washington DC (I could be wrong about the city). On of the enforcers in the mob turned and became an informant. The mob found out and invited the unlucky guy to a meeting. While the informant was sitting at a table another mobster came up behind him and shot him 3 times in the back of the head with a .22LR revolver. The informant took the gun away from the assasin and shot him with it then he proceded to beat the crap out of another guy in the room (he died). After being shot 3 times, he left the room went to his car and drove himself to the hospital. He had a full recovery with no brain damage.
> 
> ...


Anything can happen...case in point Gabby Givvins Phnx AZ...thru the head with a 9mm and lived and is walking and talking..

I'm not saying your story didn't happen but I would say I'll bet the gun was loaded with CB caps or something like that to lower the sound..

people have been shot in the heart and survived , others have been hit in the hand, went into shock and died.. each of us is a different animal .. I've shot deer thru the heart and saw them run a 100 yds... ( only once) others drop like a rock..

You can trust or not the stuff you watch on TV.. I chose to believe what I see for myself...

I've seen the results of a 22 LR on the human body.. I have no doubts about it.

As to the OP... Very well thought out and IMHO dead on for my taste , If it seems his ammo count is low remember he's talking about laying low in rough rural areas and not looking to play Rambo... which is smart..


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

All very good posts, thanks.

As for the .22 argument, carry what you can trust. I would rather have a .22 than a rock and would hate to be hit with either!


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

* I dug this out of an old post from a couple years ago or so.. every once in a while some things need to be dusted off and this is one.. the original post in the other forum had pictures along with it..

I'm not posting this to start an argument but to show what actual testing can prove.. each to their own.. as for me I'd be perfectly happy with my 10-22 and Ruger pistol as with any of my other stuff... not a single doubt it...

Mostly I want those people with little experience with guns and what they will and won't do , to have a chance to get some good info and advice on where to look for more..

I would point out that a family of say 4 , Mom, Dad , 2 kids.. say in the 10 to 13 age bracket.. with a limited amount to spend on defensive weapons.. could buy 4 10-22's , 12 Butler Creek 25 round high caps , scopes , slings , and 20 K rounds of ammo for ..approximately $1600.00?? more if the scopes are top quality, less if the guns are bought from Pvt sellers.. Now you have a family of four shooters all able to afford to practice..a lot!! plus Mom and the kids won't be bothered with recoil. and folks, 200 rounds of 22 LR bullets coming at you is not a joke.. All for the price of one AR with a good quality scope and extra mags.. the key word being "ONE" , 4 people shooting a lot of small bullets beat one person shooting small bullets...

I've said all this before many times and will keep saying it.. the 10-22 is the best family self defense weapon pound for pound dollar for dollar in the world..for the "Average" family..

I have everything from a single shot 22 to a 375 H%H Mag. I'll still take my 10-22 with no fear of being unable to do whatever I want to do.. and I can take a rabbit for dinner without waking every Zombie within 20 miles..

So, please lets all remember that while "WE" may have and use everything up to a 50 Barrett , we are being read by folks trying to learn and figure out what will work for them...

We are doing harm if we beat down the things we don't like regardless of " Will it work for others"..

If it was back in the early 90's again I'd buy a truck load of SKS's.. the Russian one with the Laminated stocks...!! $110.00 awesome !..and ammo for 90.00 a K...but oh no, I hadda have AR's.. dumb!

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=504301&fpart=1*


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## SixGunsRattlesnake (Feb 9, 2012)

Scattergun: Remington 870- most reliable tool I own. 

PDW- Berretta Px4 in .40- hi capacity, light and comfortable on the hip. 

Long rifle- .308 bolt action, synthetic stock, bipod and scope
While smaller calibers work well, I want to know that elk is going down. And if I were to defend my homestead, I could do it at a good distance, for a short time at least

Engagement Rifle
AR-clone. Flip up sights, 2x red dot light fast with good capacity. Ammo is lighter than most assault rifles and hunting rifles. Range is fair on my setup( no scope)

These are the tools I won't leave behind. 
My family members are designated several themselves as well. .38spl and shotgun for the misses, .22 short pistol and .22 long rifle for the eldest child.


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

As the OP states, there is a lot of contention regarding firearms choice.

I've spent a lot of time in research of terminal ballistics regarding police pistols and carbines. This includes lab/demo results and actual shootings.

I have spent time training with/gleaning the minds of real world shooters such as Paul Howe, Jeff Gonzalez, etc.

One of my continuing goals is to identify the Constants of firearms effectiveness; those things we can control or rely on 99% of the time.

Another goal is to realize the Variables; those elements we cannot control but likely affect actual use.

Here is my current opinion. Comments are welcome, I am always looking to improve my knowledge and application on the subject.

*How do firearms kill or end a threat quickly? (Constants)*

Three things: _Interruption of Central Nervous System (brain/spinal), blood loss, mental breakdown (shock or simple loss of will to fight)._

The only way to reliably cause the above is through reliable Penetration and Shot Placement.

PENETRATION is a function of good bullet design, mass and high velocity.

SHOT PLACEMENT. Your primary focus should be the Central Nervous System (CNS); brain through spine. This is the ONLY assured immediate fight stopper. Everything else (blood loss, shock/loss of will) exponentially lengthens the time the threat can harm you. Shot placement should be a Constant; you can control it through increasing skills practice and realistic training.

Compromising any of the above factors greatly reduces your effectiveness. You make compromises when you fail to train or make sub-par choice of caliber and hardware.

_*The real world (Variables)*_

There are some real world dynamics that greatly effect pistol ammunition performance.

BARRIERS: Corners/walls, car doors, auto glass, clothing, etc. Your bullet loses velocity. Some bullets begin to fragment or separate when they pass through a barrier. This leaves little mass to penetrate and affect the brain/blood/psyche of the bad guy.

BULLET ATTACK ANGLE: In the real world we don't get to shoot at bad guys head-on. The bullet attacks the barrier or flesh at an angle. This has a huge effect on performance (and for the .223 rifles as well!). The bullet may not expand or act predictably.

BULLET EXPANSION: Hollow points don't always expand in the real world. Sometimes the hollow point cavity gets plugged and doesn't expand. Sometimes the bullet is slowed by a barrier and doesn't have enough velocity to force expansion in the target. My recommendation is to not expect hollow points to work, but you get a free bonus if it does.

ABILITY/OPPORTUNITY: Not every shooter in your group will be armed 100% of the time and actually have a shot view on the bad guy. So often in the real world we get only one fleeting opportunity to stop a threat with a firearm:
-	The threat may close the distance too quickly
-	Threat may move too far away
-	The threat may start another problem (fire, hostage, theft, etc.) that further complicates the matter
-	Threat may take cover or flee
The bottom line is that you need to do as much damage as possible with every opportunity, especially if it's only one brief opportunity.

*Well&#8230; what choices do I have?*

_Caliber. _ The handgun sub calibers (.22LR, .25, .32, etc.) fit a niche, but they should not be considered for a primary self-defense caliber. They lack penetration power and most lack a good self-defense bullet design. Remember, we are CHOOSING a caliber here. We are NOT forced to use something sub-standard. In North America-and in consideration of crisis availability--this generally leaves us with 9mm/.40/.45.
_
Ammunition._ The best 9mm/.40/.45 ammunition tends to level the playing field between those calibers. There are few bonded bullets that make the cut: Speer Gold Dot, Federal HST, Winchester Ranger (bonded bullets only, not the Win Ranger non-bonded). 9mm vs. .40 vs. 45 really is a moot argument when you stick with bonded bullets in the mid-weights. 9mm/124gr, .40/165gr, .45/200gr.

Common self-defense revolver calibers may be just as capable of delivering the same velocities, but no one spends time developing bullets for them.

_Firearm choice._ Firearm reliability is just as important as penetration and shot placement. Do your research. Choose a model that fits, works in all weather (cold and wet, bare hands and gloves, one-handed, etc.), works for everyone in the group and practice as much as you can.


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## roym6015 (Feb 8, 2012)

I think a 22 is no better than a glorified pellet gun. It's good for small game if your hunting.A 10-22 is another story that has a lot more powder and can do more damage. If your going to be around people you need to think about close range fighting.If your going to shoot a gun use a bullet with some take down. I had a 40cal and didn't like it I'm going with a 45cal. I also plan to buy a self defense shot gun, and a 3006 or 330. if not that a semi auto like the M1 I can't afford a M4 or an AR10. I would say if your going to have a 22 have a 22lr or a 22mag that has a very large clip. a 308 pistol is a good choice for small arms but a 38cal will be cheaper and the main factor to conceder is the price of ammo.Right now I have a lot of 223 casings so that just may have to be the way I go.Better to have enough bullets than not enough for that perfect gun.I'm a slow moving fat target so I need to have some knock down power and maybe some Kevlar.


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## Geistmacher (Sep 24, 2011)

*Helping where I can*

The bigger, heavier slow bullets do more damage than the faster light bullets. 
Remember that the 9mm might expand. The .45 ACP will not shrink. 
The bigger bullet will hit areas that a smaller bullet might miss. 
This gives you a little latitude when the shot is not perfect.

Points to note:
A bullet not only transfers energy to the target, disrupting the target integrity, but absorbs energy as well as it deforms on impact. This is why a .22 LR will penetrate less than a .25 ACP fired form the same 2" length barrel. Only a .5 FP energy different. .22 RF and the .25 ACP will open the same size hole, but he .25 will not deform and so spends more energy in the target.

If the energy and bullet design is good enough to disrupt the target and deform the bullet and still spend a little down range then the combination of 
bullet and velocity and target make up is ideal.

Bad if the bullet spends a lot of energy downrange after impacting the target, the the transfer of energy to the target is incomplete and wasteful of energy. If the target is not disrupted enough, the target remains.
The bullet may pass through the target leaving little effect. The M4 in 5.56mm NATO will not be as effective at 0 to 100 meters as it is from 100 to 300 meters.

Bad if the bullet deforms a lot and absorbs to much energy for the deformation and does not leave enough for the disruption of the target integrity. The bullet will not penetrate deep enough to reach vital organs. A fine example of the Glaser Safety Slug. Shallow wide holes, no deep penetration required for vital organ disruption.

Targets are not always ideal, in the orientation of the target, makeup of the target area struck, and the path the bullet takes though the target, are all factors in the terminal effects.

In any case the bullet purpose is to disrupt the target systems to bring about failure. The central nervous system is the number one place to strike.
This brings about failure to the autonomic functions, and incapacitates the target fastest. No brain, no function.
The blood supply is the number two place to strike. This disrupts the oxygen supply to the central nervous system. Slower but effective.
Third a shot to the Lungs will bring about a slower but certain disruption of the oxygen supply and then the central nervous system fails. 
Bullet placement is the number one factor of the effect on the target. If you shoot a deer with a 460 Weatherby Magnum, through the top of the ear, he will not like it and run off. He will live.
If you shoot the deer in the neck at the first joint between the neck and the base of the skull with a .22 short at 100 meters, he will drop like a stone. You must be able to use the weapon well.

A bullet is a compromise as is the weapon platform:
Weight, velocity, construction material, shape of bullet, target material, path through the target material, distance to target, wind speed and direction, air pressure, humidity, cross sectional density, intended effects on impact at the target, over all accuracy, angle of impact, etc...

The weapon firing the bullet has a profound effect on the bullet. The twist rate of the rifling, to much will tear the bullet apart or disrupt the bullet design, to little will cause wobble and an inaccurate flight.
Chamber head spacing, bore lead, and tolerances in the bore diameter, all place a significant roll in accuracy.

Ballistic forensics is a science all by itself. You could make a career out of this subject alone.

Ammo weight will have a profound effect on how much you can carry to supply your weapon. The bigger the terminal effect the less ammo you can carry. The lighter ammo will allow more to carry, but less effects.

A way around this is to choose a weapon for a certain range and target, and purpose. Then you choose your environment for the effects of the weapon chosen. Stick to the environment that suits your weapon. It is the combination of this and the tactics used by the shooter than wins the day. 
Pick the right tool for the job.

A .22 cal pistol allows you to carry a lot of ammo. The effects are good against unarmored targets at close range. Many deer are successfully poached with the .22 long rifle rim fire. A M4 Carbine will allow a much longer range, very good effects, and a fair amount of ammo carried. A M1 Garand will weight a lot more than the M4, and the ammo will weight a lot more, limiting your ability to carry much, but will give you a longer range, deeper penetration at range, and better effects.

If any one caliber of ammo, or particular firearm was the best for every thing, then there would not be so many to choose from.

Hope I was of help.

Geist

A knife does not go bang, and will not run out of ammo.


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

*"The bigger, heavier slow bullets do more damage than the faster light bullets"*

I have learned that expansion cannot be relied upon in the real world; autopsies and operating rooms prove this time and again. For our discussion, I'll give the full .452 vs. .355 credit.

The size difference of a .45ACP on an edge impact is about 49 thousandths of an inch. That's the thickness of 12 sheets of copy paper. Or the spark plug gap on my truck.

IMO, a maximum .049" difference does not offer a significant advantage. The difference is even less if you compare to a .40.

*
Energy does not kill people. *

Let's look at the "energy" numbers for the largest difference in the common calibers-9mm and .45.

For reliable penetration of 12" or more in ballistic gelatin/barrier tests:
- 9mm 124gr displays: ~360 and 410 ft lbs (regular and +P)
- .45ACP 230gr is at: ~400 and 450 ft lbs (regular and +P)

9mm needs less energy for comparable penetration. _Penetration is the name of the game_, not energy.

All we can do with a pistol is penetrate with bullets until it finds it's mark in their CNS, psyche or tissue.

*The bottom line*

_9mm/.40/.45 aren't different enough in actual performance to support a choice based on caliber alone. _A person stands a good chance with any of them as long as they have a good firearm and train realistically.

However, the needs of a Prepper (multiple users in a group, cost, weight, etc.) may sway someone's choice one way or the other.

Given the 9mm and .45 again&#8230; the 9mm offers:
- Faster back on target
- Less wear/tear on the user(s)
- Cheaper, lighter cartridges that also use less powder
- Higher capacity magazines in the same size pistol


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Ballistics*

All hand guns are small.

A .44 mag is still small compaired to the ballistics of a rifle.

That is the reason soldiers carry rifles.

When I was in the sheriff's department, I carried a 357 mag. revolver but if I was going to a gun fight or to a situation where I knew the suspect was armed, I carried a shotgun or a rifle.

We wore ballistic vests and they would stop most handgun rounds but almost any rifle round would penitrate the vest.

To shoot long range effectively, takes a long gun. The pointability and control of the sight picture and focus is multiplied with a long gun.

I am regarded as an expert shot with a handgun but I would not hunt with a pistol, particulary if I was hunting for food!

If I had to choose only one weapon, it would be a breakdown breach loading shotgun. The variations of ammo allow total versitility of use and in a pinch it will even function as a black powder weapon.


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## tac803 (Nov 21, 2010)

Robinhoodsbuddy said:


> I think a 22 is no better than a glorified pellet gun. It's good for small game if your hunting.A 10-22 is another story that has a lot more powder and can do more damage.


10-22 is the name of a rifle made by Ruger and uses a standard .22 LR round. As for the .22 being a glorified pellet gun, when I was a paramedic, I dealt with a lot of people that had been shot with a .22, and some that had been hit with a pellet gun. As a rule, most of those shot with a .22 went to the ER, and some transitioned to the morgue. I don't recall ever transporting a pellet gun victim to a hospital. BTW, some folks in history have used a .22 quite effectively to handle close in work.

If I could have only one gun, it would be a Ruger 10-22.


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

tac803 said:


> ...BTW, some folks in history have used a .22 quite effectively to handle close in work...


Reminds me of the Israelis with their integrally suppressed 10-22s for "dogs" and other trainers' close work...


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

Robinhoodsbuddy said:


> I think a 22 is no better than a glorified pellet gun. It's good for small game if your hunting.A 10-22 is another story that has a lot more powder and can do more damage. If your going to be around people you need to think about close range fighting.If your going to shoot a gun use a bullet with some take down. I had a 40cal and didn't like it I'm going with a 45cal. I also plan to buy a self defense shot gun, and a 3006 or 330. if not that a semi auto like the M1 I can't afford a M4 or an AR10. I would say if your going to have a 22 have a 22lr or a 22mag that has a very large clip. a 308 pistol is a good choice for small arms but a 38cal will be cheaper and the main factor to conceder is the price of ammo.Right now I have a lot of 223 casings so that just may have to be the way I go.Better to have enough bullets than not enough for that perfect gun.I'm a slow moving fat target so I need to have some knock down power and maybe some Kevlar.


Well I guess I will have to be the "bad guy" here and shoot down several things that you said in your post. First of all please don't take what I am about to say as an attack on you, because it isn't, I just don't want some of the less experienced folks on here to get some bad info or wrong ideas.

You said that a.22 is no better than a "glorified pellet gun", first of all I have no idea what exactly a "glorified pellet gun" is other than maybe a .17 or .22 cal. air rifle or pistol that has been painted "pink".
Please read HozayBuck's post in this thread about the venerable .22 of which I am in complete agreement with him on.

As was said in another post a 10-22 is a Sturm Ruger Company manufactured .22 cal. Carbine that is a highly accurate, dependable, and inexpensive rifle that is IMO an ideal survival firearm, in that they are an excellent game getter, fairly quiet, and can be used as an effective self defense weapon.

The 10-22 is not a .22 round loaded with more powder, it is as I said the nomenclature of that specific rifle. There are to my knowledge only three types of standard .22 amunition and they are the .22 short, the .22 long rifle, and the .22 magnum (that does contain more powder).

Now as to "close in fighting" or CQB (close quarters battle) as it is known to the ones of us that have been trained in it, experienced it, or both. IMO CQB in a defensive posture should be avoided if at all possible (keep the "bad guys" at a distance with supressive fire). Supressive fire can be accomplished with most any calibre of firearm and yes that includes the .22. If you find yourself in a CQB situation and all you have is a .22 and you are a better than average marksman, can keep your composure under duress, and have ample ammunition in your magazine to clear a room of "bad guys", then IMHO that .22 is as effective as a .223, .308/7.62x51, 7.62x39 or anything else for that matter.

Now as far as "knock down power" there is no such "animal", there is stopping power but not knock down power. Forget what you have seen come out of Hollywood or on TV when for example one person shoots another with a 12 guage shotgun and the person that was shot goes flying off his feet backwards through a plate glas window. Bud that just dosen't happen in real life for several reasons. First the body absorbs most if not all of the energy expended by the round that hit it and it is a proven fact that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, so what do you think would happen to the shooter if in fact that load of 12 guage 00 buck did knock the "shootee" through that plate glass window? If there were such a thing as Knock down power and since what I told you about opposite reaction is true then the shooter would go flying backwards through a plate glass window also. What actually happens when a person is shot isn't very exciting and dosen't make for good action in the movies so they invented "knock down power" that is much more "entertaining" and totally unrealistic.

I have said all of this in the hope that you and others have learned something and hopefully will benifit from some of us old school on here and the knowledge and experience that we have.

In the future please think about what you are going to post, think about who is going to read it, and think about what effect it may have on the less experienced person that reads it. In other word have your facts together before you post, because if you are wrong you will be called out on it just as I just did. 
Again this was not a personel attack against you, I intended it to be a learning experience and I hope you take it that way.


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## Geistmacher (Sep 24, 2011)

In a word:
George Henry Makins
Experiences of a Battlefield Surgeon during the Boer Wars in Africa
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/21280/21280-h/21280-h.htm

Read it, study it, and understand it.

A battlefield surgeon in the Boer Wars. His book has the graphic drawings, and photographs of actual battlefield wounds, and his experiences in the battlefield, as he tried to save the lives of the soldiers he worked on. His evaluations of the ammunition of the time, and the effects of the bullets on the targets are very accurate. I will always quote this man for his direct experience. His observations were that the heavy slower bullets did more damage than the faster light bullets. Penetration is not the solution.

9mm and .45 ACP is very similar in the effects on impact. The .45 ACP having only a little edge over the 9mm in each bullet where the 9mm allows more ammo and faster follow up pending on the training of the shooter and the size of the shooter. Jerry Miculek for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Miculek[/url]. I met Jerry at the Clark's Custom Guns outfit in Haughton Louisiana, a few minutes drive from my residence. I am proud to have trained with him as my teacher. Bullets are a compromise of many things: Design of the bullet, the material of the bullet, the target material, and the environment, etc... They lack the effects of the high powered rifle. Still I would like the edge given with the .45 ACP loaded with a 230 grain ball for the effects over the 9mm with a 125 grain ball for the penetration with the same bullet. Both perform well in their limits, both will do well if you have it when you need it.

Still a hit with a .22 lr in the brain is still a hit, and the miss with the .45 ACP is still a miss. I have an extensive collection as a member of the ArklaTex Gun Collectors Association. Still I often carry a little .22 lr revolver from North American Arms. It is with me always where the .45 might be left out or behind. I prefer the .45 ACP over the 9mm when I can carry it. I prefer the 12 Gauge loaded with 3" mag slugs and 3" mag buck shot if the range is close, and the 5.56 if a firefight is in order. The 30-06 in the case if the range is very far.

In any case, we split hairs to discuss the best pistol ammo for the job. Like a 1 lb hammer and a 2 lb hammer driving nails. They both drive nails. I would split hairs to my favor with the .45 ACP.

True, energy is not the issue, it is the disruption of vital tissue that is the name of the game. Energy plays a roll as does the make up of the bullet and the path the bullet takes through the target and the distance the target is from the firearm. The .45 ACP will disrupt more tissue for a given depth than the 9mm. If both bullets pass completely through the target, the .45 ACP will do more damage than the 9mm. The difference is small but may very well be a matter of life and death. If you miss the 9mm could give you a better second shot and maybe a third or more. Do you have the time for this luxury? Maybe, but you don't have the foreknowledge of the situation.

Variables that make a difference in the bullets effects:
Speed of the bullet. Weight of the bullet. Material construction of the bullet. Shape of the bullet. Target material. Path through the target. Angle of impact. Distance of the target. Psychological makeup of the target. Influence of drugs on the target. Situational awareness of the target. Belief system of the target. Physical prowess of the target. Past experience of the target. Determination or desperation of the target.

The only thing you control is the bullet material, shape, speed, number of rounds, and the weight. On what will you bet your life?

Firearms are tools. Use the tool that fits your needs.

Vergiss das nicht, Gott uber alles. 
Don't forget that God is over all.

Geist


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

What a wealth of information! Thanks guys!

I am a huge fan of the .45 ACP. I have considered getting a 9mm for concealed carry. In my case it may well be that its better to *carry* a 9mm than *talk about *a .45 that is too heavy/bulky for me to conceal.

The jury is still out on what I end up getting but this discussion is right on target. Thanks!

EDIT: My first question to anyone who says that what I carry is no good would be "what do you carry?". Its better to carry a .22 than to have a 50 cal at home!


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

To the proponents of the .22LR... 

What ammo will you choose for your intended purposes? Have you tested that particular ammo on live, human-sized animals? What ammo would you NOT recommend--and why?

What parts of the body do you aim for, i.e., how do you prioritize them?

What are the most dependable magazines out there? Do you plain to retain your mags during mag changes? What techniques/parts do you use to make quick mag changes? How many mags do you carry? What do you use to make magazines quickly accessible? 

What kind of failure drills do you train for with your specific model? What is your drill for a Failure To Extract?

What accessories improve the reliability of the rifle you chose?

What ammo/lube works in freezing temps when ammo pressure is lowest, the action is slowed and/or fights action freezing?

What is your normal sight-in distance?

What sights/optics do you currently use in training?

What is your bump-in-the-night .22 rig? What light method do you use?

What do you use for low profile movement?

What spare parts must you stock? What are the most common parts to break?


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

Geistmacher said:


> In a word:
> George Henry Makins
> Experiences of a Battlefield Surgeon during the Boer Wars in Africa
> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/21280/21280-h/21280-h.htm
> ...


You seem to be contradicting yourself.

On one hand you cite a 100+ year old war surgeon's book as supporting Bigger-is-Better. But in the very next paragraph you write .45/9mm are "very similar"? And that we "split hairs" to compare them?

*For anyone interested in current wound ballistics, please refer to the works of Dr. Martin Fackler and Dr. Gary Roberts, to name a few.*

_Dr. Fackler is possibly the world's foremost expert on ballistic wound analysis. _Here's an online list of some of his contributions:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/wbr.htm

_Dr. Roberts is also an expert, and he routinely comments on civilian and military ammunition performance. _Here is an online bit of his contributions.
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#HandgunAmmoDocGKR
Also, here's his 2008 presentation on 5.56 ammo (1MB PDF file):
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf

If you have any questions, please comment. I know that some of the photos/abbreviations in the Roberts images can be a bit confusing.

*One more excellent repository of modern pistol/5.56 ammunition performance are the Wound Ballistics Workshops put on by ATK (they own Federal, Speer, CCI). *

These Wound Ballistics Workshops (aka WBW) are 100% sponsored by ATK. They trailer a shooting set up to any agency/entity willing to host them. They provide the shooting fixtures, gelatin, barriers. They do NOT provide the guns or ammo, not even ATK ammo.

The host agencies provide their own guns and ammo, including ammo from ATK. That way no one can say ATK doctored the setup.

They record the data and post results for everyone to see. You can find some of it on their site. I asked nicely and received a large set of raw data.

_The most valuable part of this type of field/lab shooting are the variables involved. Actual duty firearms with real-world variables. _ Maybe the auto glass wasn't always at an X-degree angle. Maybe the shooter wasn't always perpendicular to the target. Maybe it was cold (lower velocities).

The result is a growing data set that demonstrates a cartridges performance when you *do* make variations. I've had the pleasure of attending one of these shoots. Hats off to ATK for sponsoring these shoots and allowing anybody's duty firearms/ammo to be shot.

Here's a video of how they set it up; actual SWAT shooter/firearm:
http://kiesler.com/atk-gel-shoot.html


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

*OLD VET !! good reply ..I was chewing my lip to not reply because I'm not as nice as you...lol..

Now I'm out of this one it's turning into "who can Quote the most Facts"...or who can spell the biggest words..war ,and as usual nobody really learns anything...

But first...

I'll sum it up from my perspective..

" I've been shot... I've also Shot.... " it hurts to get shot... but some folks look at the blood and say "SHI$ !! and keep going , others fall down and die because that's what they believe happens when you get shot..

When things go into this kind of word war it confuses the folks we are trying to help prep.. I know that's not the intent but it is the outcome...

OV there are also 22 CB and BB caps as they were called but in truth I've not seen any for years..picture a short, short.. I've killed tree rats and rabbits with them.. but don't recommend them unless making noise is a no no in which case it's better to be hungry a while longer..
*


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

HozayBuck said:


> *...Now I'm out of this one it's turning into "who can Quote the most Facts"...or who can spell the biggest words..war ,and as usual nobody really learns anything...*


"Where no oxen are, the crib is clean: but much increase is by the strength of the ox."

Stick around, I hope it's just now distilling into good information.

These days we are very lucky to have good resources on firearms/ballistics. Resources and data that did not exist even 15yrs ago.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

HozayBuck said:


> *OLD VET !! good reply ..I was chewing my lip to not reply because I'm not as nice as you...lol..
> 
> Now I'm out of this one it's turning into "who can Quote the most Facts"...or who can spell the biggest words..war ,and as usual nobody really learns anything...
> 
> ...


Thanks Buck, us old warriors do seem to think alike where and when it counts. You got me on those .22 short shorts, the only ones I ever knew of for vermin or snakes was the .22 rat shot.

Ant,
Almost all of the major gun makers that produce .45's do make them in smaller frames for concealed carry, so if you are wanting a .45 check those out.

The arguement about which caliber is more effective is really a moot point, because what it all boils down to when everything is said and done and the "bad guy" is under a sheet about to be loaded into the "meat wagon" is that no matter what caliber was used to take him out it was "bullet placement" that did the job. 
.22 cal. to .44 mag. and everything in between is only effective if you hit them in the right place, and IMO it really makes no difference what caliber you use as long as you are comfortable with it, accurate with it (get the proper training and then practice until you think you have it down, then practice some more until hitting center mass becomes the norm) and able to think and act clearly in a stressful situation.

No matter what you carry, if you can't draw your weapon and put a "double tap" (two rounds) center mass into the individual or individuals while in an extreemly stressful situation, and before they realize what you are doing, then you will probably loose that confrontation.

What I just described is not a normal human reaction, but fear is and not only will you have to overcome that fear that will rear it's ugly head no matter who you are, you will have to have had extensive training and practice to pull it off and survive the encounter.


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## md1911 (Feb 9, 2012)

Hi I'm new here but I've been shot and returned fire also. I agree cal. Don't matter at all


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Damn useful thread guys! good stuff!


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## tac803 (Nov 21, 2010)

Fn/Form said:


> Reminds me of the Israelis with their integrally suppressed 10-22s for "dogs" and other trainers' close work...


I read somewhere that a specially modifed Beretta 21-A in .22 LR might have played a role in cleaning up after Munich. 
In WWII Donovan and the OSI used reduced load .38 spl to minimize recoil, muzzle flash, and allow quicker follow up shots. The .44 special has a following in some circles, as does the recently introduced .410 revolver. Bottom line, it doesn't matter as much what the tool is, but matters more how it's applied. Shot placement is the most important factor, doesn't matter if you are using a slingshot or a howitzer.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

Geistmacher said:


> Weapons are Tools
> 
> Almost everyone has seen the TV commercials that show a wonder tool that can fit every nut and bolt, every screw, and allow you to fix every broken part on you car, and still fit in your pocket. As most handymen know, there is no such practical tool.
> 
> ...


I totally agree.

#1 is to train your body and mind. A couch-potato cannot wake up one morning and run a marathon. A 7 year old child cannot hop on a bicycle and ride 8hrs a day for a week away from home. You must train your body to handle the stresses in all forms of excercise, even stacking cord-wood or swinging an axe.

Training your mind doesn't just mean reading books or going to school, it means using that grey-matter in all kinds of ways to think about problems that are beyond what you can learn in a school. Physics and chemistry are two "school subjects" that all preppers should have a good background in. Physics teaches you that when chopping down a tree to stay the hell out of the way when it falls.

#2 is to carry a good knife. Personally, I like a knife that rides well on the hip or on a pack or on an ankle. One such knife that I love is a traditional diving-knife that is all one piece, slim, weather proof and it can be strapped just about anywhere on the body or pack. A second knife that I love is known as a Paratrooper-knife. It is a very safe knife to use where the blade is stored in the handle and it takes two hands to open the handle to slide the blade into use. It is a great knife to have when on motorbike or even horse-back because you cannot hurt yourself with it. The third knife I love is a high-carbon-steel knife with hollow-handle made by ColdSteel called the Bushman. It is designed to be used as a knife or as a spear when attached to a large stick. I shaved a piece of hardwood to attach to the Bushman knife. When hiking, it would be a great piece of protection against a charging animal by placing the stick into the ground and letting the force of the charging animal impale itself. My final "knife" that I like to have around is my basic machette that has a full-tang hidden by a comfortable handle. It can hack through small brush easily and with a little more work can take down small trees to use for shelter, heat or cooking small game.

#3 is to carry a good staff. Also agreement here - the Bushman knife I mentioned previously is a great tip to that staff. I love the idea of the paracord-wrap on the staff, that is something that I will add to mine as it is just polished wood for now. I also have take-down hiking-poles for use when cross-country skiing, snow-shoeing or just regular hiking. When out in the bush, they will help you keep your balance and keep your pace steady.

You may notice that I did not make mention of firearms. I consider them to be secondary tools in the form of a "nice-to-have" but, depending on circumstances, might be more of a hinderance to you due to their weight, size and consumables.


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## Geistmacher (Sep 24, 2011)

I am glad to have helped get a lot of thought going on this contentious subject. 

In a deadly situation you will get tunnel vision as your body focuses on the immediate threat. You will scream and curse and say things you will not remember or intend as your mind is jolted with adrenaline. You will hear noise reduced as your brain shuts down senses not needed for the immediate threat at hand. Your fine motor control will completely disappear. Nausea will bring your last lunch to the front of your mouth. Your memory will be reduced until you have had time to sleep a couple cycles. Fear is for the aftermath. Courage is doing what is needed in spite of the fear. 

In all weapons, they are tools. Each fits a certain need. Many can double up on function and form. Many can do several things really well and others, marginally so. Training, experience, belief system, physical strength, and health has a lot to do with the survival of a deadly situation. The staff, knife, and firearm are all just extensions of your body. Training makes for accuracy under stress as the body will remember the training without thinking. You indeed fight as you train. Experience allows you confidence to make good decisions under stress and in dangerous situations as you know, you "been there and done that." Belief system keeps you calm even in the face of death, allows you to think clearly when your life is on the line and your breath may be your last. Physical strength allows you to fend off an attacker that otherwise can over power you. Your health will allow you to recover from injury better. Weapons only give you an little edge over a lesser armed attacker. 

Bottom line is: Don't be sold on a wonder gun/knife. Choose you weapons carefully to match your capabilities and needs, then choose the environment to operate within the parameters of that weapon. They need to fit like a glove. You and your weapon and your world must be one. 

My opinion for what it is worth.

Geist

In the end of the matter, your rights are enforced by your threat of using deadly force. Are we sheep or lions?
George Washington, if he failed, would be in the history books a terrorist and a footnote in history books.


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## Geistmacher (Sep 24, 2011)

Doctor Makin's book is based on real world war time stats and personal experience, not simulations or gelatin. My observations are from a life time of law enforcement and military experience. (since 1978 to present) This is my opinion based on my experiences. The real world is a strange place full of exceptions. I will believe on what I have seen and felt and tasted and smelled.

My opinion for what is it worth.

Geist


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## dragon5126 (Nov 30, 2008)

Geistmacher said:


> Points to note:
> A bullet not only transfers energy to the target, disrupting the target integrity, but absorbs energy as well as it deforms on impact.


Your presumption is incorrect. Were this true, the target that the bullet is fired at, no matter what it is, would always cause the same deformation of the bullet, and the deformation would be consistent no matter what the velocity of the projectile. The deformation is caused by the dump of energy into the target and is only based on four specific variables: projectile composition and mass, projectile design, projectile velosity and composition and density of the target. The ONLY energy being imparted is that of the projectile, the energy transfer is from the projectile and is dependent on it's mass, the amount of expansion and the mass of the target. This means deep penetrating projectiles will not transfer as much energy to the target as the same mass projectile that expands thereby limiting penetration but dumping the entire amount of energy immediately rather than bleeding it off through deeper penetration. This has been proven time and again by bullet manufacturers who have taken literally over one hundred years of continious data collection from big and medium sized game hunters and transferred it to law and personal protection bullet designs. If you have ever field dressed a deer that has been shot with a modern designed expanding round as opposed to a traditional design, the difference would be obvious through massive deep tissue damage in areas the bullet never traveled. You can tell from Arguements applied, who has actually seen first hand, the damage the shots they have taken vs those whos knowledge has come from books written decades ago supplying only empirical information. I'm sorry for busting your bubble in this manner but the facts do not lie. There is more money expended in research for hunting rounds than law enforcement, and military rounds are REQUIRED by treaty to be full metal jacketed, for pencil hole penetration, to disable and prevent "unnecessary" (you figure that one out, politicians wrote the treaties) suffering...


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## dragon5126 (Nov 30, 2008)

Fn/Form;108139[B said:


> Energy does not kill people. [/B]


I hate always being the Bad Guy but again I have to say INCORRECT. Energy imparts the damage that the projectile transfers, the weight of the projectile is the key point not just the diameter of the bullet. Until you understand this fact you will never be able to understand how a high power rifle round at 100 yds is still more powerful than the average "magnum" hand gun at 10 ft... This is the same paradigim as being hit by a mack truck doing 3 miles an hour or a buick doing 65...


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## dragon5126 (Nov 30, 2008)

Fn/Form said:


> *How do firearms kill or end a threat quickly? (Constants)*
> 
> Three things: _Interruption of Central Nervous System (brain/spinal), blood loss, mental breakdown (shock or simple loss of will to fight)._
> 
> ...


This brings back a thesis I had to write a few decades back for my forensic sciences degree... "The Cause of Death." There is only one real cause of death, and that is the cessation of all brain activity. Every other thing you believe to be death is acutally secondary to the real cause- brain death. Stopping the circulatory system, stopping resperation or obliteration of brain tissue. These are the three secondary causes. The first two cause oxygen starvation of brain tissue, the third is direct physical trauma.
There is a fourth possible cause however it generally causes one of the first two, and rarely is a true secondary cause itself and that is toxins/poisons/ biological infections. While these do affect the brain, they generally affect regions of the brain that control resperation and circulation, causing these functions to shut down rather than destroy the brain tissue directly, with the exception of a few specific pathogens. This cause is usually the result of a cascade effect of damage to the body, so it doesnt fall into the classification of "secondary" in the pyramid of death.

So where does this fit into our discussion? We often hear the term "one shot kills". For a shot to be a true one shot kill, it must shut down the brain. Period. A mortal wounding leaves an opponent viable, perhaps long enough to return fire, if armed. History is filled with people who have died at the hands of the dead. We are trained to "double tap" the Center of Mass, the center of the resperatory and circulatory systems of armed opponents to ensure a kill. Many try to practice a "Mozambique Drill" by adding a third round centered in the occular/cranial cavity, ensuring brain tissue distruction. thats three shots. A true one shot kill would have to be placed to totally obliterate the heart or the brain, or the brain stem or sever the spine at the base of the brain so it shuts down the entire body immediately leaving the brain alive for only a matter of seconds... SO this brings us to the point of real contention, who among us, in the heat of REAL combat, loaded with a massive load of adrenaline, can accomplish that type of shot?

One other poster G, (dont want to destroy the spelling of your name Kind Sir) commented that the bigger round may be more forgiving, in battle when a narrower round will miss the vital organ and turn what would have been a mortal shot into a bad wound. I have seen this multiple times in autopsies, and is one of the reasons why the higher power .40 was adopted and almost universally replaced the 9mm in law enforcement. The higher velocity, heavier hollow points, even under the worst case senarios have proven to expand substantially greater than the 9mm supplying a minimum profile of at least .50" at the average, dumping it's energy central in the body cavity, where even unexpanded the 9mm doesnt penetrate the human body through the rib cage structure to this depth. Again this comes back to the importance of energy transfer being of vital importance as it is what causes the expansion of the round, as well as full penetration. Without sufficient bullet weight, the energy can not be transfered to the body... this is a "trinity" of requirements... Mass, Energy and Bullet Profile


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

dragon5126 said:


> I hate always being the Bad Guy but again I have to say INCORRECT. Energy imparts the damage that the projectile transfers, the weight of the projectile is the key point not just the diameter of the bullet. Until you understand this fact you will never be able to understand how a high power rifle round at 100 yds is still more powerful than the average "magnum" hand gun at 10 ft... This is the same paradigim as being hit by a mack truck doing 3 miles an hour or a buick doing 65...


No worries at all, mate! I'm very glad to have your input. Ecstatic, actually.

My comment could be read as oversimplification. It was not intentional. I wrote then edited out the obvious link between energy/penetration. Brevity in consideration of audience.

I hope you will stick around and give more of your time and knowledge!


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## Geistmacher (Sep 24, 2011)

Energy is transferred as the bullet deforms. 
Energy is transferred as the target is deformed.
It takes energy to deform the bullet as well as disrupt the target.

For a firearm to be effective, the projectile must be given sufficient energy to disrupt vital organs.
For the shooter to be effective he must be able to place the bullet path through the target so that vital organs are disrupted. 
For the bullet to be effective, it must have sufficient energy and integrity, to disrupt the target vital organs, regardless of the path the bullet takes through the target.

On the extreme for example, a 30mm GAU round from the A10 through a chest of an unarmored man and fired from six feet will result in spectacular effects no matter the path of the bullet through the target. But, the average man can not carry such a firearm in combat, or concealed on his person.  

On the other hand a .22 short revolver from North American Arms can be concealed very well and carried with little effort. But, when fired at an unarmored man in the chest and at six feet will probably not effectively stop him unless the bullet path is very good and strikes the spine with enough effect to disrupt the nervous system therein. 

One should consider in carrying a firearm somewhere between these two extremes. A compromise in size, weight, effectiveness and based on their ability and training to use the firearm well. 
In the realm of practical concealed carry, one is spitting hairs in effectiveness, one calibre to the next when compared to high powered rifles. The main keys to being able to walk away lies with the shooter, not the firearm. 

Overall, I think this threat had given all of use a great deal of very useful information. I really appreciate the vast amount of experience that the forum members have brought to the table. 

Many thanks to all involved.

Tschüs
Geist


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

dragon5126 said:


> This brings back a thesis I had to write a few decades back for my forensic sciences degree... "The Cause of Death." There is only one real cause of death, and that is the cessation of all brain activity...


(I am trying to keep this simple/in lay terms to keep the attention span of most readers. Couldn't quite finish this on my lunch break...)

My original comment focus was elimination of an immediate threat in the real world.

Eliminating the threat does not necessarily involve death. Also, the long-term secondary/tertiary causes of death do not matter in this limited, exigent scope. Would you mind if we keep our discussion within this scope? May we assume handguns only/modern bonded bullets for at least our preliminary discussion? I would appreciate that.

*My current thoughts*

If you are forced to shoot... the brain and spinal cord are the quickest way to ending/turning the situation in your favor. Thus the CNS should be THE target and focus of training (more on that in a bit). Any other bodily harm (skeletal, lung, gastro, etc.) is a decided lesser advantage.

The CNS is largely protected by bone; but those areas are still sensitive to impact. Thus my focus on Penetration.

Energy is a component of penetration, but energy numbers alone don't necessarily equal the penetration and force necessary to incapacitate via the CNS. I believe 9mm/.40/.45 offer comparable and decent penetration performance with modern, bonded bullets.



dragon5126 said:


> ...We are trained to "double tap" the Center of Mass...
> 
> ...SO this brings us to the point of real contention, who among us, in the heat of REAL combat, loaded with a massive load of adrenaline, can accomplish that type of shot...


YES! I'm fist-pumping! I didn't think this topic would get this far.

Paul Howe introduced me to a targeting/training method that I believe supersedes all other training I have received or am aware of.

I'll do my best to make a simple description of his method. NOTE: He prefers to describe/teach the actual drills himself to prevent the consequences of incorrect form. That said, a pic of his training target will help with the general explanation:








http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=CSAT

The vertical, rectangular box drawn in the middle of the target is centered on the CNS. This is the most likely area for immediate incapacitation. Hit this and you very likely establish dominance (if not permanent incapacitation). From that point you can service the target again or move to a more pressing threat.

He teaches and runs a series of timed shooting drills that focus on this vertical boxed area. All shots must be in the "spine" and "brain" boxes. Shots outside the box do not count. The drills specify when you shoot spine or brain. Surprisingly, 9 of the 10 drills are at 7yds. The 10th is at 25yds.

The time and accuracy requirements are demanding; but they are what his study and battle experience identify as basic competence for a gunfight. They are attainable with regular, perfect practice.

I know of no other training method that sets such a realistic standard. Physiology, accuracy, pressure. Along with all the necessary supporting elements such as follow-through, threat scanning, etc. It is up to you to continue applying pressure and stress training.

(BTW, at the time of my class Paul preferred .357SIG.)


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## sidewinder (Jan 24, 2012)

Just to add some simplicity to this topic, "threat elimination" does not always equate to a "one shot kill". IMO, and that of many others, is that, in a survival situation, the object is not so much to ensure a fatality as much as it is to buy time and space in order to successfully escape the situation unharmed. Granted, the more effective your TRAINING is the greater your likelihood of inflicting fatal shot placement. Training obviously being the key, from WHERE to shoot down to WHAT to shoot, in relation to type of firearm and THREAT ASSESSMENT. 
My main point being that avoiding a firefight can be your best method of survival. If you don't HAVE to shoot, don't waste ammo. It you DO have to shoot, make the shot count and Bug OUT! 
Either way, if you plan on needing to protect yourself with a firearm then TRAIN and PRACTICE.


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

I found photos of meat shots I did in 2004.

A 3.5" thick brisket that was allowed to warm to 80 degree ambient temp before use. A brisket cut is a plain slab of fat/meat, no bone. I decided to place it against a hard surface (tree) for worst case meat compression.

*Ruger GP100
Win Silvertip 154gr
*Larger than caliber entry, even larger channel exit; full penetration and embedded further into the pine tree

*Savage II-F 21" bolt rifle in .22LR
Aguila 60gr Sniper SubSonic round nose*
This was a surprise; although subsonic it penetrated farther than all other .22LRs. It barely poked out the back of the 3.5" thick brisket. Very good weight retention.
*CCI Mini-Mag 36GR hollow point*
Almost all penetrated 3" or so; very consistent expansion, very good weight retention, one made it to the back of the 3.5" brisket

*Stoeger 20" .410 double, smooth bore; all slugs designed for smooth bore
Brenneke Silver Slug 2 3/4" 1/4oz*
Full caliber entry and exit; no dramatic expansion indicated by channel or exit. 
Wow. After seeing the Rem/Win slugs fail... this was an eye-opener. An alloy slug that fully penetrated the meat and embedded into the pine tree. This is the go-to for the .410.
*Remington Express .410 2 3/4" 1/4oz* and *Winchester Super-X .410 2 3/4 1/4oz*
Very poor performance; full caliber entrance, complete disintegration within 2", very little weight retention and only a sliver left in the shallow channel. I won't be buying these for any serious use.


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## TimB (Nov 11, 2008)

Fn/Form said:


> ... Surprisingly, 9 of the 10 drills are at 7yds. The 10th is at 25yds.
> 
> ...


Some time back I was watching a show on one of the sports channels (forget which show :gaah: ). Part of it was on defensive tactics. The gentleman running the drill had the target placed at 10 yards. When asked why so close, he responded that 90% (IIRC) of hand-gun battles occur within 10-12 yards, not at 50-100 yards like is so often depicted on TV.  
When I first got into hand-gunning, one of my customers (FBI agent) and I got to talking about it. He told me if I was ever unfortunate enough to find myself in a situation where I had to shoot, to keep shooting until the threat is neutralized. In other words, until they stop moving (his words). Several years later, my cousin became a county police officer and said he was taught the same thing at the academy.

Tim


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

TimB said:


> Some time back I was watching a show on one of the sports channels (forget which show :gaah: ). Part of it was on defensive tactics. The gentleman running the drill had the target placed at 10 yards. When asked why so close, he responded that 90% (IIRC) of hand-gun battles occur within 10-12 yards, not at 50-100 yards like is so often depicted on TV.
> When I first got into hand-gunning, one of my customers (FBI agent) and I got to talking about it. He told me if I was ever unfortunate enough to find myself in a situation where I had to shoot, to keep shooting until the threat is neutralized. In other words, until they stop moving (his words). Several years later, my cousin became a county police officer and said he was taught the same thing at the academy.
> 
> Tim


Aye. My police academy taught the same thing... until Columbine. The school resource officer had a chance to take Harris or Klebold out at an extended distance. But he didn't train for it... and he didn't have his prescription glasses on. That's just one example where >7yds is needed, and there were many more before that. But that was the one that finally changed minds around here. And Paul still covers the long shot. The drill involves taking a knee and a 25yd shot within the "box"/time restraint.

What surprised me was the fact Paul's cumulative experience around the world resulted in this 9/10 @ 7yds drill. If you don't already know, he was an Army Delta team leader and trainer; he continues to train the elite of the world. He was a shooter during the Black Hawk Down incident and killed 30+ there alone.

But then I realized that it was just the pistol's place in his training system. Paul speaks of his pistol methods dovetailing with his carbine method which dovetails with all of his specialized classes. You don't learn conflicting techniques or habits when transitioning from carbine to pistol, carbine to medic, pistol to breacher, etc.

I'm glad you brought this up. It reminded me to add that dovetail approach to my prep design.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Frangible ammo*

In the late 70's The newely formed air martial service asked ammo manufacturers to develope ammo that would be a good one shot stoper but would not penitrate the target and injure innocent passengers on a commercial airline.

The Glasser Safety Slug was developed for this purpose.

This round consisted of a copper jacket with a teflon tip.
The inner core was filled with lead shot and liquid teflon.

The teflon tip allows the round to penitrate heavy clothing and the round then fragmates compleatly in the soft tissue so that no through and through penitration occures.

A compleat energy dump takes place in the core of the target. The resulting shock to the organs is tramatic.

There are several simmilar rounds that have been developed for the same purpose by competeing manufactures.

I have used this ammo and found it to be an excellent self defence round.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...ECEA5A968BC6971B3D15EC&view=detail&FORM=VIRE5


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## Donald (Sep 1, 2010)

no matter the calibre of the weapon or qauge of the shotgun the one thing that applies to each equally is: it is the placement of the hit that counts....
Donald


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

BillM said:


> In the late 70's The newely formed air martial service asked ammo manufacturers to develope ammo that would be a good one shot stoper but would not penitrate the target and injure innocent passengers on a commercial airline.
> 
> The Glasser Safety Slug was developed for this purpose.
> 
> ...


Did you see his "test" on actual wallboard/gelatin? It looks like it turned into a regular bullet. Not what I expected, and not what they advertise.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Brassfetcher_evaluates_9mm_Glaser_Safety_Slug.pdf

Nowadays FAMs use .357SIG with the Speer Gold Dot. One of the most penetrating calibers/loads out there. They know now that bullets going through the exterior won't cause catastrophic damage.

Actually, in the Law Enforcement Flying Armed class, they tell Law Enforcement to simply not aim at the floor where the hydraulics, etc. are located. Otherwise LE is allowed to fly while armed with their usual duty pistol/ammo.

A link to .357SIG penetration of sheet metal:
http://intrencik.com/357sig.htm


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## Norse (Jan 30, 2010)

You folks are knocking the .22 caliber? Are you freaking stupid.

.22 calibers entering the torso of a human body are devastating. Instead of like a large caliber handgun, which yes, does much damage, .22 calibers being a high velocity, small mass projectile, do what is known to surgeons as, "Squibbing".

That means when such a bullet like a .22 caliber hollow point hits soft tissue, it flattens out, and continues a meandering path through the tissue.

So, you can get shot in the lower abdomen, and the bullet can come out your neck.

This incessant need to quibble about caliber is stupid. You know what caliber is best for self defense? ANYONE you can defend yourself with.


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

Norse said:


> You folks are knocking the .22 caliber? Are you freaking stupid.
> 
> .22 calibers entering the torso of a human body are devastating. Instead of like a large caliber handgun, which yes, does much damage, .22 calibers being a high velocity, small mass projectile, do what is known to surgeons as, "Squibbing".
> 
> ...


I'm still waiting for my equipment/training responses from Page 2, Post #19. Please help me out with some specific recommendations from your personal experience. My simple testing shows .22LR HPs are not that great for penetration.

A .22HP won't "meander" unless it strikes something it cannot penetrate.

Police, military don't carry it because it's not reliable in performance, ammunition, consistency or power. And it's their job/life on the line.

Make your claim in a class taught by Farnam, Jeans, Lamb, Vickers, Rogers or any other respected trainer. Tell it to the FBI. Let me know what they say about it being a good first choice for self defense.


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## Norse (Jan 30, 2010)

Tweto said:


> If you think a .22 is a good choice, please read this.
> 
> I was watching a show called the FBI files on ID tv. The FBI was investigating a mob gang in Washington DC (I could be wrong about the city). On of the enforcers in the mob turned and became an informant. The mob found out and invited the unlucky guy to a meeting. While the informant was sitting at a table another mobster came up behind him and shot him 3 times in the back of the head with a .22LR revolver. The informant took the gun away from the assasin and shot him with it then he proceded to beat the crap out of another guy in the room (he died). After being shot 3 times, he left the room went to his car and drove himself to the hospital. He had a full recovery with no brain damage.
> 
> ...


I find that highly suspect, for the clear reason a "Mob hit man" would know better than to make head shots with a .22.


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## meltdown1232000 (May 17, 2011)

9mm pistol with 5 15 rd mags. Kel tec s2000 in 9mm with 9 17 rd mags and a 10 rd. 12 ga pump...6 + 1. And a scoped Marlin 30-30. 300 rounds of 9mm, 6 boxes of 12 ga, and 100 rds of 30-30...all fits in my backpack or on it in scabbards. Still have room for food and water for 3 days. Haven't thought about firefights much, but it's possible that a black rifle is next.

I figure a lot of people are going "Keltec? What the heck?" It folds in half and fits the bag. And, if you haven't fired one....try it...accurate as hell out to 100!


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## headhunter (Nov 21, 2008)

Not LEO, not ex-military I have read a lot and I hunt and have done my own butchering.
Point 1- The critical mass target is not new, I first ran into in in a magazine "Survive" or "Survival in the '70s.
Point 2- An insane person attacked President Regan, using a .22 and some "Devastator" ammo ( a bullet designed for Air Marshals) three people were not in good shape.
Point 3- American doctors in the Spanish American War (1898) noted that modern high velocity rounds such as the 7x57 (from Spanish guns) were apparently more "humane" than the rounds from the .45-70s, the wounds caused were nowhere as horrific and soldiers were more apt to survive.
If you wish to kill something and you want it down yesterday, the best way to do it is to break as much bone as possible. Even a heart shot deer will go a surprising distance. If you wish to anchor that deer before it gets on the neighbors land, break the shoulder bones. If you want to save the most meat, shoot behind the shoulder.
Last, a friend,who is a Federal "Special Agent" is allowed to carry on an aircraft, however, must have the captin's OK to intervene.


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## Norse (Jan 30, 2010)

Fn/Form said:


> I'm still waiting for my equipment/training responses from Page 2, Post #19. Please help me out with some specific recommendations from your personal experience. My simple testing shows .22LR HPs are not that great for penetration.


Oh really? stick one under your chin, I bet you did not try that "lack of penetration" experiment.



Fn/Form said:


> A .22HP won't "meander" unless it strikes something it cannot penetrate.


Really, gee, your IQ must be well over 50, because a .22 will "Meander" when hitting water, and since most tissue is largely water, anyone with a angstrom of logic can figure out that equation.



Fn/Form said:


> Police, military don't carry it because it's not reliable in performance, ammunition, consistency or power. And it's their job/life on the line.


No, most police are restricted to pea shooters anyways, and anyone dense enough to mention the military and .22 is just plain dumb.



Fn/Form said:


> Make your claim in a class taught by Farnam, Jeans, Lamb, Vickers, Rogers or any other respected trainer. Tell it to the FBI. Let me know what they say about it being a good first choice for self defense.


The FBI? ya, maybe you should contact the FBI, because they will tell you .22 caliber is the preferred round of contract killers.
Any firearm is only as lethal as the person using it. I can understand why small caliber firearms seem to be problematic for retards though. They usually only end up hurting themselves.


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## elder (Oct 25, 2008)

I couldn't find it on a search, what is the lowest cost source for 22LR 36gr hollow points in 6300 qty?


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## headhunter (Nov 21, 2008)

*cost*

I had a great deal of faith in Remington golden .22s. A couple of years back they became unreliable. Yesterday the grandson and I shot roughly 80 rounds ( it was 19 degrees) and there were five that didn't go bang. When I pulled the bullets and dumped the powder, we found the green priming compound mixed in with the powder. 
No matter how little they charge for it- it isn't a bargain.


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## dragon5126 (Nov 30, 2008)

Norse said:


> Oh really? stick one under your chin, I bet you did not try that "lack of penetration" experiment.
> 
> Really, gee, your IQ must be well over 50, because a .22 will "Meander" when hitting water, and since most tissue is largely water, anyone with a angstrom of logic can figure out that equation.
> 
> ...


these are some rather intellectual and civil (NOT) comments and really add to the quality of the site (almost)


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## elder (Oct 25, 2008)

elder said:


> I couldn't find it on a search, what is the lowest cost source for 22LR 36gr hollow points in 6300 qty?


I already own a High Standard Longhorn 22 revolver and a Sears pump 22 rifle so regardless of all the "facts" I would like a good source for ammo.


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## SouthernComfort (Mar 14, 2012)

My "22" is a 223/5.56. Other than that, my 22LR is reserved for small game or target plinking. It isn't so much the caliber of bullet as much as it is the type. Remember Hydra-Shock? I have many weapons in many calibers. My EDC is Glock 30/45ACP and Glock 17/9MM, both in double rig Galco SH. I even carry the LCP 380 if it's a place you're not suppose to carry. 380 Hydra Shock works well as a multi-function bullet, second only to one-shot placement. There are a few other "exotics" depending on season and what people may be wearing, but not a .22LR.


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## elder (Oct 25, 2008)

All the argument against 22LR does not convince me to have no 22LR ammo. If SHTF I may be eating small game. If I run out of larger bore ammo I am a pretty good shot, even a zombie will have a tough time getting to me without shoulders and kneecaps. I'll look elsewhere for 22LR ammo experience and info. Have a nice day!


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## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

Well the firearms talk sure does bruise egos!! I do like a good .22 though and the ruger 10-22 seems to be the best on the market at that price point. But what I need to know from the .22 fans is 2 things.....what is the best hi-cap magazine for the 10-22 and what ammo is better the federal, winchester or remington. All three are at walmart in around a 550 box ammo for 20 bucks but which one has better quality?


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## fedorthedog (Apr 14, 2011)

22 is the first gun every one should get. It is cheap and can fire a lot of rounds for not much money. I agree with the 4 10-22 for the cost of one assault rifle concept. Even if you end up with an assault rifle and good quality pistol for all of your family, how much can you carry. I can carry a 10-22 and 2000 rounds. More importantly my 8 year old can too. After the shtf you will run into the unprepared who need a weapon. The ability to arm those you befriend benefits you. 

As to 22 not doing anything, look up the stats there are more people killed with 22 than any other caliber, because it is the most common caliber out there. Think about it that means most houses have .22 ammo in them.

The Israelis use 22 to wack people, it seems to work for them.


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## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

So dog what ammo do you recommend?? And magazines?? I need advice from .22 lovers out here!! Come on people.....toss me a rope I'm drownin here!!


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

CCI's higher end ammo has been the most reliable for me. This includes cold weather, dirty guns. I prefer the Mini-Mag for my autos for those specific reasons. Federal Champion copper plated has also been pretty reliable. But all the above is not the cheapest.

This illustrates further why .22 is not a good self-defense CHOICE. The ammo isn't reliable like quality centerfire ammunition. I could probably fill a couple 500rd bricks with my duds from the last several years.

Couple that with poor chamber access for doublefeeds/failure to eject or extract, lack of power in real cold weather/cold or frozen lube, mags with a necessarily small/tight tolerances and all the other things we've discussed.


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## elder (Oct 25, 2008)

I don't get it, if one has .22 weapons it makes no sense not to have ammo. I doubt that many people would move toward .22 fire. I don't list all my weapons for "data mining" reasons.


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## Momturtle (Nov 2, 2009)

My favorite gun is my Ruger 10/22 rifle. I can hit a 2 inch group at 50 yds w/o a problem and have a variety of ammo for it. Several thousand rounds of Federal Bulk copper plated, have shot box after box with no misfires so far. Not so with the Remington. Also have the super high velocity for longer range and better penetration. 
Also have a Ruger bolt action 77/22 and a custom Ruger predator which is an awesome accurate 22LR rifle.

The Ruger 30 round magazines are very reliable, not had a problem with ours but always use your magazines to check them as our local gun shop got in a bunch of bad magazines that sprayed bullets into the air instead of cycling them through -- not fun. Once they were replaced all was well. 

In the NATO War Surgery Manual they show wound channels from the different calibers and I was very impressed to see the 22LR created a huge and devastating wound channel because as soon as it penetrates, it starts to tumble. Even when it doesn't hit bone and bounce about, the tumbling action creates havoc. When the diaphragm is shredded, the lungs don't work. For longer distance, the 22 Hornet and 22 mag are also great and you can reload the Hornet. 

As with any caliber, shot placement is key. Practice practice practice and it is even better to avoid a bad situation completely. That is the skill I want to perfect!


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

I have never seen .22LR in any NATO Emergency War Surgery manuals. There are a few ".22" wound cavities, but they are for US military M193 and M855 ammo, which is .223/5.56 and worlds apart from .22LR. 

You can also scroll back and see my personal testing of .22LR ammo on plain meat. No tremendous wound channel.


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## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

Thanks for the ammo tip. I don't wanna load up on crappy ammo! Where's the fun in that!


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## fedorthedog (Apr 14, 2011)

mojo4 said:


> So dog what ammo do you recommend?? And magazines?? I need advice from .22 lovers out here!! Come on people.....toss me a rope I'm drownin here!!


Ruger 10-22 and any 25 round mag with steel feed lips. So far I have not found one that does not work. I do like hot lips and Butler creek.

I am not picky on ammo, I have seen enough posts (autopsy's) to know that shot placement is what counts not the bullet. I buy name brand .22 40 grain if I can find it. I avoid Remington as I have had a lot of failure to fire with this ammo. (1 round in a 100) I like Winchester Western Wildcats, Peters, and Federal Bulk. Bi Mart seems to have the best sale prices If you are in the Oregon Washington area. I ordered strapping and clips from strap works and made my own tactical slings.


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## elder (Oct 25, 2008)

The best deal I can find for .22LR is Cabela's due to free shipping. The price is $79.99 for 2100 rounds with free dry can.


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## Geistmacher (Sep 24, 2011)

*A case for the .22 Rimfire pistol*

The .22 Long Rifle cal Rim Fire pistol:

Cost - The .22 cal ammo cost about $85.00 for 2,100 rounds.
Noise - Low to moderate.
Effectiveness - Will kill deer size game in excess of 50 yards with a well placed shot. A very accurate combination. 
Weight - Ammo is very light, and the pistol is very light.

The pistol is easy to suppress. The weight is minimal. The ammo is cheap.

If I had a choice of one gun to choose in a mobility survival situation with no resupply in sight, I would choose a suppressed .22 auto pistol and a few thousand rounds of ammo.

In a survival situation, food gathering will be the main purpose of the firearm. The quantity of ammo and the low noise of the weapon makes the .22 cal a good choice.

When weight is a premium, the .22 cal makes sense.

My opinion for what it is worth.

Geist


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## prepare_survive_thrive (May 7, 2012)

roym6015 said:


> I think a 22 is no better than a glorified pellet gun. It's good for small game if your hunting.A 10-22 is another story that has a lot more powder and can do more damage. If your going to be around people you need to think about close range fighting.If your going to shoot a gun use a bullet with some take down. I had a 40cal and didn't like it I'm going with a 45cal. I also plan to buy a self defense shot gun, and a 3006 or 330. if not that a semi auto like the M1 I can't afford a M4 or an AR10. I would say if your going to have a 22 have a 22lr or a 22mag that has a very large clip. a 308 pistol is a good choice for small arms but a 38cal will be cheaper and the main factor to conceder is the price of ammo.Right now I have a lot of 223 casings so that just may have to be the way I go.Better to have enough bullets than not enough for that perfect gun.I'm a slow moving fat target so I need to have some knock down power and maybe some Kevlar.


I share these and do my best to not insult those who say a 22 or even smaller cant be used for self defense. It all depends on how intelligent you are with your firearm and ALWAYS comes down to shot placement. Please just watch these clips and take just a moment to think how this information could be useful in defense and hunting for food in a hostile area.



 .



. 



. 



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## weaselrunner (Apr 16, 2013)

The only thing you can pretty much be assured that is going to drop somebody is a .50 caliber. Now not a lot of people are going to be carring these around. Sometimes it is a matter of luck. LEO have had bullets deflected by their badge, others by a book or wallet or necklace. If you hit what you are aiming for and not spray and pray, then yes a 22 lr can drop a deer or a human, while a 30-06 can just piss somebody off while they do unto you. now back to our regularly sched. progamming...
My .02$ now valued at .00001$


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Seems we need a Mk#3 defeater up in this thread.

Glad to deliver:
Take your average hollowpoint in substantial caliber.
Insert a hardened sheet metal screw into the cavity.[the black ones duh?]
Remove excess screw with rotary tool cutting bit.
Enjoy the fact that standard Kevlar is now useless against you.


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