# Water capturing systems?



## Sentry18

This spring we will be replacing all of our gutters, downspouts, etc. with seamless gutters. Seems like the perfect time to put in some kind of water capturing system to collect some of that precious H20. Just for some background I do live in the winter wonderland of the Midwest and no there are no weird laws governing water rights here. If it falls on my house it's mine. My thinking is to create or buy some kind of collection system that goes into large containers with a spout / hose attachment. Then use some of it for the garden and pump some of it down into storage containers in the basement. One of the downspouts in the back yard is only a few feet away from a basement window (storage room next to my man cave) which is currently well secured with steel bars. I could even run some pipe through the wall. I should be able to just use gravity to get the job done.

What do you have in place? How big is it? Do you move the water indoors? Share, scheme and discuss!

This is sort of what I have in mind (2 or 3 of them), for the time being anyway.


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## LincTex

I have three IBC totes (two are 300 gallon, one is 275 gallon) next to the house. They used to have food grade liquids in them. I get them on Craigslist for about $50-60 each.










I use white steel gutters and vinyl downspouts.

I also have two old galvanized steel "floating dock" tanks that are about 800 gallons each!


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## ZoomZoom

I too have/use the IBC totes.

If you don't mind saying, what's it cost per foot for the seamless gutters nowadays? I'm planning on doing the same on my house in the next couple years.


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## Wellrounded

We have a 5000 gallon concrete tank, collects off of the house roof, plus smaller tanks on sheds etc. Gutters are zincalume, down pipes are pvc. 

Standard setup for Australian rural areas. This tank supplies all our water to the house via booster pump (gravity will feed to the kitchen sink but no the hot water store tank or shower). There is no filtration in the system, also standard for Aussie systems.


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## hiwall

Whatever system you end up with make sure you have a plan for the over flow.


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## Sentry18

My presumption is that the IBC tanks will not survive -20° temperatures. How big are they (size not capacity)?

I already have two 55 gallon food-grade drums in my storage room that I feed from a whole-home water filtration system (which in and of itself is a large capacity water storage tank). My thinking is to add 2-4 more (or perhaps an IBC Tank) and feed them directly from a rain water reservoir. So in essence they will become part of the overflow. The primary water will be used for gardening and other plants. If there is additional water after that it will just go out the overflow valve hose and go where rainwater normally goes when it leaves our downspout. I also have several dozen cases of bottled water that needs to be used in the next year or so, time to replace them with a better long term solution.


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## ZoomZoom

Sentry18 said:


> My presumption is that the IBC tanks will not survive -20° temperatures. How big are they (size not capacity)?


Off the top of my head, they're about 3' wide, 3.5-4' deep and probably 4' tall.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "not survive -20"? They're pretty flexible so I'd think they could take the freeze and water expansion.


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## Sentry18

My presumption was that if they were full of water and then froze, the expansion would possibly break the container. But more importantly frozen water outside would not help me if I needed water. I could just go scoop some snow, bring it inside and heat it up far easier. Hence wanting to keep the tank in my basement. Which also aids in the security of the precious liquid (if things go bad). Although if such a container could handle the freeze then perhaps one or two indoors and one or two outdoors would be a good option.


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## ZoomZoom

Well, whatever you pick and leave outdoors is going to freeze. I've never left mine full outside in the winter. 

If you look at the tote LincTex posted, you'll see the bung at the bottom of the tote. Since ice freezes on top, unless it's frozen solid, you should still be able to pull water from the bottom.

If you have some of these indoors and outdoors, I'd save the inside ones for drinking water. The outdoor ones could be chemical treated to slow or stop the freezing (depending on agent and mixture) and then use these for non-drinking or dish washing purposes.

These totes are used all over the world and in cold climates. I'd think they would need to handle expansion should the content freeze.


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## LincTex

Sentry18 said:


> How big are they (size not capacity)?


I am pretty sure their footprint is the industry standard of 40" x 48" (the most common pallet size anywhere) and little less than 4 feet high? I'll bet you can fill a standard 48 foot dry van with them. (I need to ask a trucker)

My biggest concern in Texas is not the tank contents freezing (even at 20*), but the water trapped inside the "ball" of the ball valve. It has no where to go.


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## LincTex

Sentry18 said:


> Then use some of it for the garden and pump some of it down into storage containers in the basement.


Do you have a floor drain?



Sentry18 said:


> Do you move the water indoors?


Yep, when needed. A DC 12 volt Shur-flo pump from an RV does that job when no grid power is available. I have other AC 120 volt pumps as well... even engine driven ones.


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## LincTex

I forgot to mention if you put them in your basement, build platforms to set them on. Higher is better; easier to drain. Also makes places underneath to store other stuff.


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## goshengirl

Look into a 'first flush' system for anything you'd be bringing into the house for potential human consumption.

Roof tops collect bird poop and other debris that gets washed away after the first several minutes to half hour (depending on the amount of rain). So the first gallons of water coming down the downspout will be more toxic than later gallons. A 'first flush' system captures that initial, more toxic water before it goes to your storage tanks, and allows later, cleaner water to flow to the tanks. Once the rain is over, you can release what was captured in the first flush into a drain system (like a regular downspout system) so that it will be ready for the next rain. (ETA: the amount of water diverted in a first flush depends on the size of your roof)

If you're going strictly for horticultural use, I wouldn't worry about a first flush. But if you're starting from scratch and considering some of the water for human consumption (even just bathing), it would make sense.

wikipedia first flush
rainharvest first flush diverter
amazon first flush kit
loomis tank products
tank town products


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## Caribou

I have about a 1500 gallon plastic tank sitting above ground outside. The city filled it up without my knowledge. It survived -40* that winter. No guarantee but I had good luck.

You can put heat tape on your suction pipe. This will allow you to pump your water. It will also allow for water to flow on top of the ice and relieve some of the pressure as the ice expands. You can just hang a heat tape in the middle of the container for the same effect.

You can partially bury your tank in the ground. If you can get it below the frost line the ground will keep it from totally freezing. Some spray foam above ground will add additional improvement.

If you have the room in your basement and you are willing to give it up for a cistern you can wall it off (reinforced cinder block or concrete), and add a plastic liner. PM me if you want I've made several cisterns and lived with them for decades. Here is a link for an article on cistern that might help.

http://www.survivalblog.com/2013/01/water-cistern-facts-by-rex-x.html


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## Sentry18

Yes, I have a floor drain. The room currently holds our hot water heater, water filtration system and water softener. It is also the center for all things plumbing and where the main water line enters our home. It used to be a laundry room as well, but we relocated that to the main floor. 

Is a first flush system as necessary if I plan on running the water through a filtration system before consuming it? I never heard of a first flush system so that gives me something to research.

Lots of good stuff, thanks everyone.


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## Sentry18

ZoomZoom said:


> I too have/use the IBC totes.
> 
> If you don't mind saying, what's it cost per foot for the seamless gutters nowadays? I'm planning on doing the same on my house in the next couple years.


My wife has the paperwork so I would have to double check, but it was around $6.25 per linear foot (premium grade aluminum).


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## Caribou

The first flush sounds like a good idea. I've only lived in one house that had a bird problem and we didn't have a collection system there. Dad built the house in the late '50's and collected all the domestic water since. The only bird problem they ever had was the time the eagle tried to fly through the front window. Mom says she never saw Dad move so fast.


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## ZoomZoom

Sentry18 said:


> My wife has the paperwork so I would have to double check, but it was around $6.25 per linear foot (premium grade aluminum).


Thanks.

Gulp. Maybe I won't be doing it. I have about 250'. No way I'm spending over $1500 on gutters.


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## FatTire

Good stuff.. Ive also been looking a lot at stuff like 'earthship' systems which utilize cisterns and gray water recycling. I think water collection and management are going to be of critical importance in the not too distant future, and especially critical for anyone wanting live sustainably off grid.

Anyone have any good source info on building ones own cistern, also anyone have any experience with grey water recycling systems (how do they not stink?)?


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## LincTex

Sentry18 said:


> Is a first flush system as necessary if I plan on running the water through a filtration system before consuming it?.


It's a piece o' cake...

Just google " rain float water diverter " and click on "images"

http://www.harvesth2o.com/first_flush.shtml

here's the basic concept:


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## Sentry18

ZoomZoom said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Gulp. Maybe I won't be doing it. I have about 250'. No way I'm spending over $1500 on gutters.


If it makes you feel any better, were spending well over three times that amount when you calculate in downspouts and soffit. 

Although you could get vinyl seamless gutters for much less.


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## LincTex

A better picture of the floating ball diverter idea. A lot of folks plumb the bottom to a 55 gallon drum so the roof *really* gets rinsed before the water runs to your storage tank 

http://www.homepower.com/articles/home-efficiency/equipment-products/catching-cloudburst


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## lhalfcent

LincTex said:


> I have three IBC totes (two are 300 gallon, one is 275 gallon) next to the house. They used to have food grade liquids in them. I get them on Craigslist for about $50-60 each.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I use white steel gutters and vinyl downspouts.
> 
> I also have two old galvanized steel "floating dock" tanks that are about 800 gallons each!


oooo! great tip on the craigslist idea! however i found these in my area one one person having them but they are 125$ a pop. I think i will buy two of them. however the guy is williing to trade so waiting back to hear what he is looking for. the IBC totes he has are food grade.


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## FatTire

How do you clean them out n trust that whatever was in them is really gone?


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## LincTex

FatTire said:


> How do you clean them out n trust that whatever was in them is really gone?


1) Most are still labeled with prior contents, only get the ones that had food grade stuffs in them.
2) Well, I consider it "rough" water storage and not "potable". I plan to treat and filter the water that comes out anyway.

1 Half Cent - keep looking! They are out there!


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## FatTire

i guess for me id really have to get a good read on the seller... what sort of setup are you planning or do you have for filtration and treatment?

At this point our basic plan is well for potable water, catchment for garden n critters, but i think we would be well served to really exploit as much caught water as we can, collecting runoff from every structure, plus grey water recycling..


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## LincTex

FatTire said:


> what sort of setup are you planning or do you have for filtration and treatment?


Me? or Sentry?


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## goshengirl

Sentry, I don't know if you _have _to use a first flush if you've got a house filter system, but I personally would. It's not that expensive a set up (especially when compared to your gutter system ), and it helps take a load off your house filter. If you've been using a house filter with city or well water, I'm thinking that you'd see a big difference in debris with rainwater. I don't know how many trees you have or how dusty your area gets, but ours gets pretty dirty. Nothing that doesn't settle out, mind you, but again, why tax the house filter unnecessarily? Also, we have birds in our area, so bird poop is a consideration.

I should clarify that we have been collecting rainwater only for non-potable purposes for the past several years and do not have an elaborate system, just a lot of 55 gallon drums that get a lot of use. But we've been researching for a couple years. We are not on city water but on a cistern that has to have water trucked in (no wells in our area, too much hardpan) and it's expensive. This summer we hope to have a whole system in place that includes potable water along with agricultural water. We want complete water independence, and I'm with FatTire - we need to exploit all water resources. I'll be including collection systems off a sheds/coop for animal use, and we're looking into solar pumps to get water from house/shed collection out to the garden and orchard.

Sentry, what is your house filter system like? My biggest concern with collecting rainwater is making it potable, and not needing electric to do it.

lhalfcent, we can get those around here for $50-$70 on craigslist. They are getting harder to find, though - I think more people are seeing their value. 

FatTire, we don't have the large totes yet, but I do know that whenever we get 'new' (new to us) 55 gallon drums, they clean up pretty well. They still smell like the food that was in them when we get them (tea or flavor syrups like cherry and peach). We fill them about 1/4 the way and roll them around, then shake them out. Then we just use them, and by the second time they fill up, the scent is totally gone.


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## LincTex

goshengirl said:


> My biggest concern with collecting rainwater is making it potable, and not needing electric to do it.


Piece of cake.

The easiest way is using a slow sand filter (not always necessary) and then through a Berkey filter.

You could add a touch of bleach or Ca(ClO)2 and letting it sit for quite a while before running it through the Berkey for peace of mind.


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## goshengirl

LincTex said:


> The easiest way is using a slow sand filter (not always necessary) and then through a Berkey filter.
> 
> You could add a touch of bleach or Ca(ClO)2 and letting it sit for quite a while before running it through the Berkey for peace of mind.


Yeay! Because that's pretty much where I'm at right now. I like the idea of a whole house filter system, too, though in a SHTF situation we would be limited by the number of filters we've stored. (hence the slow sand filter)

Our intake pump (from cistern to house) is electric, and I want to see if we can have that switched over to solar this summer, or at least to solar back-up.

ETA: Sorry Sentry - I hope this isn't derailing the intent of your thread. There's a lot of good input here, and I'm glad you started it.


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## LincTex

goshengirl said:


> Our intake pump (from cistern to house) is electric, and I want to see if we can have that switched over to solar this summer, or at least to solar back-up.


Post #11, second page



LincTex said:


> Yep, when needed. A DC 12 volt Shur-flo pump from an RV does that job when no grid power is available...


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## Wellrounded

Although I agree that first flush systems are a good idea they are not essential. Your mileage may differ if you are in a heavy industrial area. Our rainwater varies from 5ppm to 25ppm dissolved 'other' stuff. About 50 times better than local townwater. 
We clean our tanks out every 20 years or so, maybe, if we feel like it. Keeping bugs and sunlight out is important. 


FatTire, I design greywater systems, have for the past 20 years. Now retired but I designed them and provided the plants for the systems. 
This is a temperate climate and I have no idea what to do in a system that freezes  
Run the water through a very crude filter first, we use bark based potting mix as the media (as it's easy for people to obtain here), sawdust will also work (wet it well first). This is to take fats and some oils out of the water as well as any big solids and should be changed once a year. Most of the systems use 5 to 10 gallons of media, surface area is the most important factor. Water is dropped on top of the media (vertically) it does not flow through it (horizontally). On my own system I have a catch basket before this filter that needs emptying frequently (weekly at the least), they are not put on other peoples systems as they might not be emptied often enough.
Next drop the water from a height, a couple of inches will do, this will dissolve a bit of oxygen into the water and speed up breakdown of organic matter. Pass the water through a very course gravel bed planted with fast growing aquatic plants. If you're a good gardener I'd recommend something like watercress or an aquatic mint. The reason they use reeds etc in these systems is not because they are ideal filters but because they are just about indestructible once established. 
If you've chosen a more delicate plant in the first gravel bed plant a second bed with something like reeds just in case of plant failure. It's a good idea to drop the water again to pump a bit more oxygen into it. 
Water should be looking pretty good at this point, you can then use it for irrigation or flushing toilets. 
The most important factor to managing grey water is not what you do with it once it goes down the drain but what you put into it before it goes down the drain. if you use a lot of heavy chemicals you will always struggle getting the system to work, same with a big fat/oil load. Detergent is terrible, use alternatives where ever possible. If the system stinks you need more aeration, or you are building up fats etc too quickly, disturbing the bottom section of the gravel beds will ALWAYS stink, just like any bog. The size of the bed will need to be tailored to your largest water flow. Bigger is not always better, smaller multiple gravel beds always work better than one big one. If you get to the last bed in your system and the plants don't grow well (but did in the first ones), congratulations your system is perfect 
The real beauty of a grey water system is that it can grow, if you don't think it's filtering enough add another gravel bed. 
I should add that the systems I've built were NOT approved, they were all put in as afterthoughts by people wanting to use their greywater to water gardens. They wanted a better system than simply diverting the water onto the ground.

Because these systems are natural they will vary in efficiency with temperature and may completely fail (just as septic systems do), they are not foolproof and do need some attention to work well.


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## Sybil6

I came up with a design last year. It's very similar to the one you posted, Sentry. But with open gutters and methods to purify and filter the water in mass. To catch bulk debris like leaves we though about something as simple as a screen over the spout of the gutter and regularly clean them. Then boil and filter the water as used. I'm glad to see that somebody else had an idea close to mine and now I know a couple of ways to improve it.


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## grakita

Sentry18: Here is a really good video of a water catchment: 



He also has a step by step on that goes into much more detail. We are looking to put something like this in, I am trying to figure out how to keep it from freezing in SD winter. As an FYI they do make "covers" for the IBC totes but they are expensive. I am trying to figure out something using thermosyphoning.


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## jeff47041

ZoomZoom said:


> I too have/use the IBC totes.
> 
> If you don't mind saying, what's it cost per foot for the seamless gutters nowadays? I'm planning on doing the same on my house in the next couple years.


Around here, seamless 5" gutters run right about $3.50/ LF. The downspouts count as footage, as well as each elbow and fitting counts as a foot.


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## Sentry18

Is that materials or materials + installation? Aluminum?


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## biobacon

Glad you posted this. I also am Looking into doing this. Mine is going to be around 50 gallons or so. But all for garden.


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## jeff47041

Sentry18 said:


> Is that materials or materials + installation? Aluminum?


Aluminum, material and labor to install $3.50/LF. They usually charge a bit more to remove existing gutters


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## Sentry18

That's what they wanted for vinyl gutters! 

$6.25 / LF was for removal, disposal, material, labor and 10 year warranty. Plus a re-inspection at the one year mark to make sure everything was still in perfect working condition. The 5 year warranty aluminum gutters were a little cheaper but not much.


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## jeff47041

Vinyl gutters are pretty much junk if you live where there is ice IMO. 
Just curious, did you call one place or a few? Most places will tell you an approx. price/LF just over the phone, without having to come look at the job. 
Just a good idea to get a few prices.


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## forluvofsmoke

If you really want potable water, you should check out the Sawyer Point Zero Two water purification systems. They aren't expensive, especially when you consider that they can be back-flushed and used indefinitely. Just don't let them freeze once they have been put into service, as they cannot be dried-out internally. They have bucket systems for drip-purification and also inline systems. The Point Zero Two is a 0.02 absolute micron purification system, which removes every biological hazard (not chemical) down to, and including, viruses, hence, why they are classified as a water purification system, not a filter. These are stemmed from kidney dialysis technology. The only real down-side to these is if there is a risk of chemical contamination, you need to provide additional abatement measures for that. If the Sawyer is used with a particulate pre-filter up-steam, be it pre-manufactured or a more natural method, it would reduce the loading of particulates into the Sawyer, thus reducing the frequency of back-flushing required to keep the Sawyer flowing.

I have no affiliation with Sawyer, but do own one of their products for my GHB, a Zero Point One (0.1 micron) filter bottle, and I see a strong, long-term potential for the Point Zero Two systems for anyone living off-grid, and especially for SHTF. I want a Point Zero Two in the worst way imaginable...I'll be ordering one as soon as I can budget one. From the right vender, the bucket drip system can be had for around $100.00, if you're curious. The biggest selling point for me is unlimited water purification, without the need for replacement filters, cartridges and the like. These are a sustainable biological water purification system...what could be better?

Great thread, and great info shared thus far. I have lots to do to get our water supply up to speed once we are moved to a better long-term BIL. All of this will give me more things to consider during my planning. Keep it coming!!!


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## forluvofsmoke

Regarding vinyl gutters, as stated, don't waste your money. They get brittle over time, and even smaller hail will destroy them once UV has had some time to break-down the material. Aluminum and steel can be repaired, without much effort, and is less susceptible to weather related damage. Just keep them clear of debris, regardless of the type you have.

Just a thought...has anyone used heat tape in their gutters to prevent freeze-up of snow-melt in winter? I've seen it used a lot in areas where there are big temp swings causing daily freeze/thaw, just to prevent over-flow and the resulting icicles hanging from the gutter (may cause structural failure of the gutter system at some point). If heat tape is used, one could actually continue to collect water in winter, with a properly system for collection, and underground/basement storage.


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## Caribou

I've seen friends use heat tape in their gutters effectively.

If you have much in the way of icicles then you have a problem with your roof insulation.


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## forluvofsmoke

Caribou said:


> I've seen friends use heat tape in their gutters effectively.
> 
> *If you have much in the way of icicles then you have a problem with your roof insulation*.


That depends on the local climate. We just had -27*F less than 10 ago, if I recall, and at the same time we were getting light to moderate, but almost daily snowfall...now it's in the 50's with snow-melt running everywhere. In a few more days we'll see sub-freezing daytime highs again. The warm winds and sunshine are creating quite a melt-down on their own, so water is dripping all over then place.


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## Wellrounded

On the subject of longevity...
Our zincalume gutters were put up in the early 1970's. Most still have many years left in them, one section needs replacing as a tree hit it in a storm. I'm pretty sure that the new gutter we buy to replace the damaged section won't last that long. We buy all the old guttering we can get our hands on for outbuildings, it's twice as heavy as the new stuff. 
We repair with patches of the same material and silicon or bitumen paint to seal. A coat of bitumen (tar? don't know what you guys call it  ) on the inside of the gutter and they'll out last me. 
I think the most vulnerable part of our water collection system is the concrete storage tanks. We're saving up to buy liners just in case. We do have smaller corrugated iron tanks as well, these are old salvaged leaky tanks that we have either put a concrete base in or mortar plastered the walls. These smaller tanks fill from the overflow of the larger tanks.


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## Sentry18

jeff47041 said:


> Vinyl gutters are pretty much junk if you live where there is ice IMO.
> Just curious, did you call one place or a few? Most places will tell you an approx. price/LF just over the phone, without having to come look at the job.
> Just a good idea to get a few prices.


We got 4 quotes; 2 from local businesses and 2 from national chain stores. The local business both came out, the chain stores just emailed us a quote. They were all in the same price range for the quality and features we wanted. My wife has a 3rd degree black belt in Haggle-Fu and a Masters degree in internet research. So when she presents me with a quote and says this is who I want to go with, you can rest assured they've been researched and vetted 6 ways from Sunday.


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## goshengirl

For what it's worth, this little book I just finished reading is pretty good (even though it's a bit pricey). You can keep an eye on it and see if any used copies show up that are less the $20.

Rainwater Collection for the Mechanically Challenged

It gives an overview of different options for each aspect of a rainwater collection system to be used as the water source for the home. It doesn't give detailed tech drawings, but it does give a good overview. The information is available online, but the way it's presented all together has given me a much clearer picture. The book is short and simple.


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## ronald_stufflebeam

*My water catchment plan*

We plan on building hugelkultur beds this year along with swales on contour to offset the need for irrigation. We're also building stealth ponds in the near future to augment our need for well water or just to have water were no well water is available. I also plan on building a natural swimming pool when time allows.


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## LincTex

A MUST read:

http://www.rwh.in/RainwaterHarvestingManual_3rdedition.pdf


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## dirtgrrl

LincTex said:


> A MUST read:
> 
> http://www.rwh.in/RainwaterHarvestingManual_3rdedition.pdf


Thank you sir!


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## Bushpig

Thanks for the link. I am going to putting an irrigation system on the garden this year. Using tethered 55 gal drums for water storage allowing me to add capacity if needed. Hooking them to an RV water pump.


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## LincTex

Bushpig said:


> Hooking them to an RV water pump.


Shur-Flo pumps are typically *low* flow and *high* pressure. They would be good to use for a "misting" device for cooling, or for small jobs like a "spot sprayer" or a small sink... but they are very poorly suited for irrigation pump use. They just don't move any GPM (gallons per minute).

In the case of your garden, gravity will be your biggest friend. always use gravity flow irrigation when possible.

If your garden is uphill from your water tanks, there are several ways to skin that cat.

I have a 30 gallon water heater tank on and elevated stand that I use at my BOL for gravity fed hot water (solar heated). I fill it from the ground using the shur-flo pump, and it takes about 15 minutes or so


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## Bushpig

My test to compensate for the low flow but high pressure was to couple it to a drip system using their spray heads. Most of the drip system spray heads that I am finding are rated in GPH. Was going to use the pressure to compensate for the long run. Was hoping that the GPM pump would be a good match to push the GPH heads. I got the pump salvaged out of an old RV and it gave me the idea. If not I definitely can elevate the drums and just let gravity do her thing.


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## TheLazyL

Caribou said:


> I've seen friends use heat tape in their gutters effectively.
> 
> If you have much in the way of icicles then you have a problem with your roof insulation.


I agree.

Heat lost thru the roof melts the snow/ice.

Water runs down to the roof until it reaches the part of the roof that overhangs and starts to refreeze. Causing an ice dam, roof leaks and gutter damage.

Or

The gutters are not cleaned out before winter. Water fills the gutters and has no where to go, over flow results in ice sickles and possible gutter damage.


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## LincTex

Bushpig, if you ever need a higher flow rate, look into the idea of using a venturi jet pump with your high pressure pump to add more GPH to your flow:


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