# Faraday cage i built works



## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

A while ago I asked about Faraday Cages. Between this forum and other sources I finally built two large Faraday Cages. We finally got, piece by piece, a Solar Generator 1800watt with 4 deep cell, 200 amp hour batteries. We can only use two at a time, the others are for back-up. Two large 160 watt solar panals, and a 600 watt wind turbine. with controllers, wires etc. At 68 going on 69, I started to think beyond the cave with furs, flints for fires and water dripping from the ceiling for drinking. We made the cage big enough for a 21 inch TV, DVD player, CD players, battery chargers (solar and 110volt) , re-chargable batteries, the panels, the electric part of the turbine, emergency radios, transcievers, walkie talkies, my chain saws without the bars, some electrical tools, and other items that will be put in if we are warned that a 5 or 6 CME is coming in on the 24 hour alert phone call we are subscribed to about CME's. I built the Cage of 2 x 2's. I purchased 40 - 8 footers, a 4 ft x 100 ft. roll of the metal screening that used to be used for screen doors (non-painted), and then proceeded to staple, overlapping the screening over the cages. When I ran into where I had the door, I overlapped the screen around the 2 x 2's, put hinges on the doors and screen door latches to keep it tightly closed making sure the screen touched when closing the door. I personally put them above ground on two desks. I put a floor of plywood to hold the generator and other items, and shelving for the solar panels, making sure nothing touched the wire mesh screening. To keep the generator battries charged, plus the other electonics inside (walkie talkies, transciever, radios, etc). For the generator ground, I have an AGW 3 ground wire that I just pushed through the screen to a hollow metal tube that has screws on each end to tighten on the seperate ground wires. If a CME or EMP is known to be coming in all you do is disconnetct the ground wire that goes to the Solar Generator, then wait until it is over, before setting up your panels and wind turbine, because they can be affected by a CME. It is said if a large Carrington Event 1859 type CME comes in, once it is gone, after a few days, the probability of another large CME hitting earth again so soon is remote. I keep the charge on the deep cells once a month and the other items too. The AGW 3 or 4 ground wire goes out the basement to a grounding rod that for our area only has to be four feet deep. This depends on the year round dampness depth of your soil.
So the cages were built and just sitting there. Well the other day I saw a TV a show called Apocalypse 101 on TV and they built the same exact Faraday Cage I did, but used a rubber mat on the wood flooring, that you really do not need. Once completed they turned on a tansistor radio on, put it in the cage, closed the lid and it stopped playing, therfore proving that the wave can not get through the cage when built properly. To my knowledge there is no CME or EMP wave small enough to get through the tiny screen holes from those waves.
I also did the same type of ground attached to the frames, for our cars, since they are all metal, although I hear this will work, but have not seen the proof yet. They also say if you know a CME is coming through the telephone warning system we have, get the car batteries out and put them in the faraday cage. 
So this type of Faraday Cage does work, if built properly.


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## db2469 (Jun 11, 2012)

Good job...I'm not able to do all that but I have some galvanized cans to protect smaller electronics...just trying to find out the best way...


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

db2469 said:


> Good job...I'm not able to do all that but I have some galvanized cans to protect smaller electronics...just trying to find out the best way...


Still might research the cost, It is easier and beleive it or not does not cost that much for the amount of space you get. One of my cages is 6 x 2 1/2 x 3 feet. The other is 2 x 2 x 4 feet. Total was aobut $200.00 depending on prices week to week. The problem I found with gavanized ducting for furnaces is that you have to insulate the insides. Space is what you need once you realize just what you want to survive with. I got lots of rechargable batteries, then solar rechargers and 110v rechargers. It is amazing just how we depend on electricity. Some can do without but at our age we need some of it. We still cut our own wood, can our own food, and the yard work, but the one thing we decided we need were lights and some entertianment at night.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Sounds like you have a good setup very efficient use of materials for a Faraday cage. I think making it convenient is the best way to ensure it's usefulness.

Putting lead acid batteries in a Faraday cage is pointless imo, they will not be damaged by any conceivable emp especially if not connected to a circuit. Any battery that is not connected to a device will be fine, new rechargeable lithium ions with a microchip may be an exception.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

Good going popcorn, it's good to be prepared considering this year is supposed to be the solar maxim and as of Friday there was a relatively large CME that's reported to possibly cause some Northern lights. I kind of miss seeing them down here in S.W. Oregon, when I was living in Washington just North of Bremerton I saw a lot of spectacular Northern lights especially in the mid to late 1950's. I'm pretty sure that some of the CME's during that time were very powerful, thing is in those days transistors were just starting to be made and tube radios could take a strong solar punch and keep on working. These days micro chips have conductors in them that are thinner than a human hair and need protection from EMP's and major CME's. Presently I have to get two more ground rods to drive into the ground at the N.W. and N.E. corners of our home to ground our metal roof. It's amazing how much radio signals have been cut out since installing just the S.W. and S.E. corners. We are storing our solar panels, controller and inverter-charger in this protected environment until this solar activity dies down. Who knows just how strong of a CME that could happen and it would be a shame to loose valuable equipment when it may be needed more than ever if grid systems get knocked out.


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## db2469 (Jun 11, 2012)

cowboyhermit said:


> Sounds like you have a good setup very efficient use of materials for a Faraday cage. I think making it convenient is the best way to ensure it's usefulness.
> 
> Putting lead acid batteries in a Faraday cage is pointless imo, they will not be damaged by any conceivable emp especially if not connected to a circuit. Any battery that is not connected to a device will be fine, new rechargeable lithium ions with a microchip may be an exception.


Do regular flashlight batteries need to be in a cage for protection?


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

db2469 said:


> Do regular flashlight batteries need to be in a cage for protection?


No, for all intents and purposes they are immune to the effects of an emp if not connected to a device. It is possible if they are installed in a device for it's circuits to act as an antenna and short them out but that is extremely unlikely.

With small batteries there is no harm done by storing them in a Faraday enclosure, they don't take a lot of space and they are easily portable. When it comes to carrying a car battery to put it into an enclosure that seems to me like a lot of time and energy wasted.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

With vehicles it's been my thought that if I were to drive a ground rod as close as possible to an electronically sensitive computer controlled vehicle it might just save the electronics by having a heavy ground wire to clamp to it. In the case of our van I'll have to put a grounded screen under the hood because the hood is fiberglass.


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

Great to hear from you all. I may have gotten the wrong information, but I was told that any battery because it has the flow through from positive to negative would be damaged, a large CME wave would cross over the posts or ends and essentially fry them. As far as cars go if it is all metal, and you ground the frame it is supposed to work. I have not personally seen anything that proves that true. Any car 1968 or before is supposed to be safe, if the electronics have not be modified or updated. 
My concern about the car battery, would be to put it in the Faraday cage only, repeat only when a lever 5 or 6 CME is on its way. At the very least you would save the battery which will be needed. I am on a phone call list that will notify of a large CME event at any time. For me it is worth it at $4.95 a month. But that is me. Best to all and being prepared makes one sleep well at night. Knowledge is power the lack of knowledge will enslave or destroy you.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

I started typing a response and realized it had become wordy with too much technical information so I deleted the majority of it. I'll just state the conclusions. If you would like the technical reasoning, I can provide that, but it would most likely put a lot of people to sleep.



A CME induces currents into long conductors and nothing in your car is long enough to be affected by a CME in this respect. An EMP is different and can affect automobile electronics..

The concern with CMEs is the long high voltage distribution lines crossing the US. Currents can be induced into them which can burn out the large transformers on the grid. There is some concern on the medium and low voltage lines supplying residential areas. If high voltages are induced in them, it could affect anything in your home that was plugged in at the time.

Batteries aren't susceptible to damage from a CME or an EMP unless they're connected to very long cables. CMEs cause motion of the Earth's magnetic field. That motion is the only thing lacking for the generation of electricity in the long conductors of power lines. It's along the same lines as passing a strong magnet back and forth over the battery terminals.

The Faraday cage you built could possibly be effective in the event of an EMP, but it will have zero effect during a CME. Put a compass in the Faraday cage and see if you can get a reading. If you can, then the Earths magnetic field isn't being blocked. Faraday cages are not effective against slow changes in magnetic fields. They are effective agains the rapid changes in charge caused by electromagnetic radiation which isn't what happens during a CME.


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

The problem we face is CME's also come as Gamma Bursts and Class - X storms that can be electro - magnetic. Electro - magnetic storms will affect electronics at this magnitude. In about 1995 NASA Scientist, Pysicists, and Electrical Engineers warned Congress to protect the major power grid stations. They did not. South Africa lost 14 major transformer station due to an electro magnetic solar storm, Toronto was parrilized because of an electro magnetic solar storm. Every 100-200 years the sun ejects a massive Solar Flare, CME, Gamma Burst, Electo Magnetic Storm, or what ever a person wants to call it. If we get this Class-X storm, sattilites will get fried, some already have becasue of solar storms, much of our electrical grid will be fried, and much of our electrical items would be fried if not protected. Carrington Event 1859 showed in a minor way, because there was very little electicity back then what can happen with a major Solar Storm. The telegraph being one then, was almost totally destroyed. It is the old story I hope I am wrong and the scientists are wrong, but what if they are not. For such a low price is it worth ignoring the facts of the past. Just my thought, and since I was an USAFSS Intell Analyst 1964-74 the retrained and retired from the USAF in 1983. I do prepare, because in our field we see the worst can happen.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

With regards to batteries I don't feel like doing a ton of math and google didn't come up with a calculation I saw before.
The oversimplified basics though are simply that it takes a LOT of energy to short a car battery, that amount of energy is not possible from any sort of electromagnet field in an area as small as a battery. Same thing for smaller batteries, they can handle less but are also subject to less effects. Connecting batteries to REALLY long cables makes it possible to "absorb" enough power which is then "concentrated" at the ends where the battery is connected, potentially causing damage.


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

Cowboyhermit, I do not disagree with you at all. You have done research like I have. My research makes me go with what I did and am doing. One has to remember, that the field I was in while in the USAF makes me a lot more caucious than some. I worked as an Intelligence Analsyt. 1963-74 last ten years 1974-83 I retrained to another field. During that era we prepared for the worst case situation in the military that could occur. When dealing with irrational leaders you could never go on past performances. You had to understand they may not roll that way again. So preperation for the wrost was best. If the worst happened you were ready, if it did not happen and the normal reaction happened then you were more ready anyway. The Carrington Event 1859 did prove on the limited electrical grid we had at the time, Telegraph, under those circumstances was destroyed. If we had another Carrinton Event of the same magnitude today or larger, (they will never be the same) , the only history we can go by is what has happened over the past 20 or so years with the technology we have today. South Africa looseing 14 major electrical generating/transformer station because of a solar flare (gamma burst), electro-magnetic storm. Toronto hit by a electro magnetic storm was grid locked for three days. China was hit with one with similar results in limited areas. These by comparission were small storms. We are dipping back through our arm of the galaxy and entering an Galectic Energy Cloud for what is estimated to be the next 2000 years, and science says that will enhance solar and atompheric events. But, who really knows, this is fertile ground yet. No situation is the same. When you enter a Doctors office You are an Experiment. The medical field has base lines for symtoms, but as many have seen not all treatments work the same and not all sysmtoms mean you have the same problem. Science is the same. Nothing is written in stone. Like regulations and manuals are not written in stone, they are guidelines to go by for situation, but are flexible, but if you do deviate from them you better have a good reason. So as far as batteries go and such, a Carrinton Scale Event or worse coupled with the Intergalecitc Energy Cloud we are entering may put to rest all science and therories. No one really knows. My personal objective is to take all precautions according to the best histroy and science availabe today and with the X-Factor being the unknown. So for the small amount of money and time to build what I did and the space to put batteries in there, to me is prudent. That is my opinion, and if I am wrong no harm but again what if I am right? I pray I am wrong, because the worst case situation would be devistaing ot the world at large. Anyone really like the eraly 1800's? We have our modern day items, but we also have the back to basic items for such a sitatuion, if it happens. We went 9 days in the later 1980's without electricity, and that made me wake up. If it had been in the winter I would not have cared much. It happened in early summer, so we had generators running to keep refrigerators and freezers running. We had our own well and had to run the generator to keep water on when needed, the stored in buckets for days. A bath we so welcome after those days. Our socieity has become lazy in regards to preperation, and why I got lulled into that lazyness years ago I do not know. The only person that will help you is you. Do not depend on Gvoernment to be there. Cowboy I do hope you understand were I am coming from I respect your thoughts, situation and preperadeness, but I also would rather be over prepared than be caught flat footed. Take care.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

What's interesting about the Carrington event is that in turning telegraph wires red hot, they wouldn't have been on a closed circuit as far as I can understand unless the telegraph key contacts were closed as in sending a message. It seems what happened is that the impulses from the solar flare generated very large amounts of electricity in those lines. The forces of nature can really mess with what we see as normal. If those lines were anything like the old telephone lines that used to follow the railroad down past our place they were iron or copper plated iron wires. It would have been interesting to see the Northern lights during that event as I've read that they were observed as far South as the Caribbean Islands.


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

Viking said:


> What's interesting about the Carrington event is that in turning telegraph wires red hot, they wouldn't have been on a closed circuit as far as I can understand unless the telegraph key contacts were closed as in sending a message. It seems what happened is that the impulses from the solar flare generated very large amounts of electricity in those lines. The forces of nature can really mess with what we see as normal. If those lines were anything like the old telephone lines that used to follow the railroad down past our place they were iron or copper plated iron wires. It would have been interesting to see the Northern lights during that event as I've read that they were observed as far South as the Caribbean Islands.


I also rad that in London you could read a newpaper at midnight, probably a it dimmer though.


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## gabbyj310 (Oct 22, 2012)

I was told a microwave would work,is that so or not????? Also I was in Wal-Mart today and saw a small galvinized(6 gal) bucket with a fitted lid,thought that might do for small items.also............Heads up.........This Wal-Mart in Ckarksville Tn,was almost TOTALLY out of ammo..I just left central fl and that Wal-Mart had plenty of ammo.I'm going back at the end of the month and if they still have it I will buy as much as they will allow!!!!


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

I would go back fast if you can. I had to go to four stores to get what I wanted. By the way I was just told that a weapon that is a must is, a Pellett Gun .22 Cal. Silent to a point, pushes the projectiles out at 950 up to almost 2000 for the really expensive ones. I got a Beeman .177 and .22 cal, two different barrels and a scope. You realize tha Lewis and Clark had an air gun on the trip across the U.S. Schools did not teach much of that did they. It was mentioned on the first page of their memoirs, and about 33 times in the entire writings, yet no teacher ever taught about it. It made a journey of the magnitude safe. It held (can not remember psi) psi, had an ammo feed of 20 - .44 cal or so round balls with a rifled barrel, and could put a ball through a large piece of wood at 100 yards. Took 800 pumps to get it up to pressure. No people ever, wonder how they went all the way across and never had trouble. When they came to the differennt tribes they would dress up, fife and drum into the village, pull out that gun. and they could shoot 40 times before have to repump it and re-load it. So the tribes had no idea if they one of 36 of these guns. As was stated by the museum currator presenting the gun and how it worked on u-tube, this is a good example of Peace Through Strength of firepower.
Back to the microwave, what I have heard and read it is a faraday cage, but you have to open it up and gut the mechanisims and wiring. Get all the electronic guts out of it, by what I have read. I had thought of it, but there was not a big enough microwave hull to hold a 21 inch TV.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

popcorn590 said:


> The problem we face is CME's also come as Gamma Bursts and Class - X storms that can be electro - magnetic. Electro - magnetic storms will affect electronics at this magnitude.


The only significant effect this will have on electronics are those outside or partially outside the earths magnetic field. The effects that occurred on the ground were caused by the solar ejection's force upon the magnetic field of the earth and not by the

Gamma rays do not cause significant electrical effects except in the case of an EMP and then it's not the gamma rays that are the damaging aspect. It's the electrons that are liberated from atoms by the gamma rays. These electrons then interact with the magnetic field of the Earth to produce a portion of an EMP. A gamma burst would probably have enough energy density to cause this, but if the Earth were hit by one the survival of electronics wouldn't matter because the radiation itself would kill everyone.

To generate electricity using magnetism you need 
a magnetic field
a conductor
relative motion between the field and the conductor.

We always have the magnetic field and conductors but what causes the induced voltage is the motion of the earths magnetic field that results from the CME. None of the examples you cite differ from my statements. Every one of them was caused by high voltages induced into long transmission lines because of the motion of the Earths magnetic field. Your battery, your car and any other device not connected to transmission lines will not suffer from a CME. I'm just trying to give you the facts. It's still your time and money to do with as you please.


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## d_saum (Jan 17, 2012)

I've heard the easiest way to build a Faraday cage (box), is take a cardboard box, and wrap it in aluminum foil. No gaps, no holes.. That's what I'm doing. A decent sized box with an old laptop, thumb drives, radio, walkie talkies, and some extra sensitive car parts just to be safe. :beercheer:


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

labotomi said:


> The only significant effect this will have on electronics are those outside or partially outside the earths magnetic field. The effects that occurred on the ground were caused by the solar ejection's force upon the magnetic field of the earth and not by the
> 
> Gamma rays do not cause significant electrical effects except in the case of an EMP and then it's not the gamma rays that are the damaging aspect. It's the electrons that are liberated from atoms by the gamma rays. These electrons then interact with the magnetic field of the Earth to produce a portion of an EMP. A gamma burst would probably have enough energy density to cause this, but if the Earth were hit by one the survival of electronics wouldn't matter because the radiation itself would kill everyone.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the advise but I will prepare and be ready and if I am wrong so what, if I am right, again so what.I have one question for you. Why are the NASA Scientist, E.E.'s , Phys. Michu Kaku, and other scientists, when they all agree, at least the ones I have read the heard, if a massive CME hit the earth all computer operated items not protected would be done? Just askin because I, like you do what we do to be ready. If as you say we are wrong why are, as I know they are, military vehicles, acft, ships, tanks and other facilities being protected with Faraday type protections? I have knowledge of the preperations the government is making with food, ammo, bunkers, all protected with faraday cages. Just curious, Hay what the hay, best to You and Yours in what you are doing. Later.


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

d_saum said:


> I've heard the easiest way to build a Faraday cage (box), is take a cardboard box, and wrap it in aluminum foil. No gaps, no holes.. That's what I'm doing. A decent sized box with an old laptop, thumb drives, radio, walkie talkies, and some extra sensitive car parts just to be safe. :beercheer:


Aluminum is not a great conducter, I must say I have used cigarrett wraping foil when I smoked to wrap around a fuse that was bad and it worked until I got a good fuse. Danger to the equipment but it was always for a short time.
For the size you seem to want why not the screen that is small metal mesh? Just curious.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Aluminum is one of the best conductors for practical purposes. What kind of metal screen are you using if not aluminum?


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

cowboyhermit said:


> Aluminum is one of the best conductors for practical purposes. What kind of metal screen are you using if not aluminum?


I purchased the metal screening at ACE hardware. I got a 4' x100' roll for about $90.00.


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

Okay All, There seems to be a difference of opinion about CME's and Faraday Cages effectiveness. I am done talking/giving my opinion after research against another and their research. Respect is given to all opinions and should be honored. I personally know military members that have told me their electonic equipment is faraday style protected from EMP's AND the possiblility of Large CME's. An EMP low yield Nuke exploded at 100 to 300 miles above earth over the area to be targeted, is a selectively chosen targeted area. A large CME, Carrington Event or larger, is like a shotgun blast compared to a rifle. Here are two sites you can read and decide for yourself:
www.boingboing.net/2012/01/24/what-happens-when-a-coronal-mass.html AND
http://survivethecomingcollapse.com/331/surviving-solar-flares-conronal-mass-ejections-and-emps/
Take a look.


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

Okay All, There seems to be a difference of opinion about CME's and Faraday Cages effectiveness. I am done talking/giving my opinion after research against another and their research. Respect is given to all opinions and should be honored. I personally know military members that have told me their electonic equipment is faraday style protected from EMP's AND the possiblility of Large CME's. An EMP low yield Nuke exploded at 100 to 300 miles above earth over the area to be targeted, is a selectively chosen targeted area. A large CME, Carrington Event or larger, is like a shotgun blast compared to a rifle. Here are two sites you can read and decide for yourself:
www.boingboing.net/2012/01/24/what-happens-when-a-coronal-mass.html AND
http://survivethecomingcollapse.com/331/surviving-solar-flares-conronal-mass-ejections-and-emps/
Take a look.


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

popcorn590 said:


> I purchased the metal screening at ACE hardware. I got a 4' x100' roll for about $90.00.


It is regular metal screening to my knowledge. You could get aluminum or metal screening for screen doors when I was young many years ago. The sceening I got was to me, metal, it did not cut like aluminum and it sure as heck scratched and poked me pretty bad during the cutting and building.


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

popcorn590 said:


> Okay All, There seems to be a difference of opinion about CME's and Faraday Cages effectiveness. I am done talking/giving my opinion after research against another and their research. Respect is given to all opinions and should be honored. I personally know military members that have told me their electonic equipment is faraday style protected from EMP's AND the possiblility of Large CME's. An EMP low yield Nuke exploded at 100 to 300 miles above earth over the area to be targeted, is a selectively chosen targeted area. A large CME, Carrington Event or larger, is like a shotgun blast compared to a rifle. Here are two sites you can read and decide for yourself:
> www.boingboing.net/2012/01/24/what-happens-when-a-coronal-mass.html AND
> http://survivethecomingcollapse.com/331/surviving-solar-flares-conronal-mass-ejections-and-emps/
> Take a look.


SORRY, somehow two of these got posted. My fault.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

My point is the screen you bought is probably aluminum so the comment about it not being a good conductor is confusing. Steel (including stainless) is a MUCH worse conductor than aluminum.


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

cowboyhermit said:


> My point is the screen you bought is probably aluminum so the comment about it not being a good conductor is confusing. Steel (including stainless) is a MUCH worse conductor than aluminum.


Sorry I was wrong, I went into the basement and took a magnet. It is aluminum, sure did not cut like it. FYI: After I retired from the AF in 1983 I did some pig tailing in mobile homes connecting the copper wiring at the outlets then crimping it on the aluminum wiring that ran through the home. Seemed the aluminum could get hot near the boxes I guess and could cause over heating and fires. By putting the copper at the end run of aluminum at each box/outlet the insurance company would then insure the home. With this fact in mind it proves your point of conductivity with aluminum.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Yeah aluminum wiring has certainly had some problems over the years, most but not all due to incompatible metals. 
The vast majority of high voltage power lines are aluminum, it can serve very well, especially when weight and price are factors.
Most people think steel is a great conductor but compared to aluminum it is very poor, by volume and even worse by weight.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

I have some background in these two fields as an EE with a background in nuclear physics as was a prior reactor operator in the military. I would like to see reports or articles other than survivalist, doomsday or sites selling faraday cages or plans to make them because nothing I've read from reputable sources indicates that CMEs will directly affect electronics except for those such as satellites (outside or somewhat outside the Earths magnetic field)

My persona opinion is that you're confusing or combining CMEs with EMPs. The articles you've linked all state that a CME can cause widespread damage due to damage to the electrical grid and that an EMP can fry electronics as well as duplicate the effects of a CME. They've mad the distinction between the two. I am in no way saying both are not potentially damaging, but they are not the same thing. A Faraday cage will protect against the E1 component of an EMP but it will not do anything for the effects of a CME or the E3 component of an EMP. The great thing is that a CME isn't going to affect anything you put in the Faraday cage anyway.

*CME*


> *Impact on Earth*
> 
> When the ejection is directed towards the Earth and reaches it as an interplanetary CME (ICME), the shock wave of the traveling mass of Solar Energetic Particles causes a geomagnetic storm that may disrupt the Earth's magnetosphere, compressing it on the day side and extending the night-side magnetic tail. When the magnetosphere reconnects on the nightside, it releases power on the order of terawatt scale, which is directed back toward the Earth's upper atmosphere.
> 
> Solar Energetic Particles can cause particularly strong aurorae in large regions around Earth's magnetic poles. These are also known as the Northern Lights (aurora borealis) in the northern hemisphere, and the Southern Lights (aurora australis) in the southern hemisphere. *Coronal mass ejections, along with solar flares of other origin, can disrupt radio transmissions and cause damage to satellites and electrical transmission line facilities, resulting in potentially massive and long-lasting power outages.*





> *Humans in space or at high altitudes, for example, in airplanes, risk exposure to relatively intense so-called cosmic rays.* Cosmic rays are potentially lethal in high quantities. The energy absorbed by the astronaut is not reduced by a typical spacecraft shield design and, if any protection is provided for the astronaut, it would result from changes in the microscopic inhomogeneity of the energy absorption events.


Note that the danger is to humans (biological damage). Nothing is said about the aircraft electronics being affected by the CME.

*EMP*


> E1
> The E1 pulse is the very fast component of nuclear EMP. The E1 component is a very brief but intense electromagnetic field that can quickly induce very high voltages in electrical conductors. The E1 component causes most of its damage by causing electrical breakdown voltages to be exceeded. E1 is the component that can destroy computers and communications equipment and it changes too quickly for ordinary lightning protectors to provide effective protection against it.





> E2
> The E2 component is generated by scattered gamma rays and inelastic gammas produced by weapon neutrons. This E2 component is an "intermediate time" pulse that, by the IEC definition, lasts from about 1 microsecond to 1 second after the beginning of the electromagnetic pulse. The E2 component of the pulse has many similarities to the electromagnetic pulses produced by lightning, although the electromagnetic pulse induced by a nearby lightning strike may be considerably larger than the E2 component of a nuclear EMP. Because of the similarities to lightning-caused pulses and the widespread use of lightning protection technology, the E2 pulse is generally considered to be the easiest to protect against.
> 
> According to the United States EMP Commission, the main potential problem with the E2 component is the fact that it immediately follows the E1 component, which may have damaged the devices that would normally protect against E2.
> ...





> E3
> The E3 component is very different from the other two major components of nuclear EMP. The E3 component of the pulse is a very slow pulse, lasting tens to hundreds of seconds, that is caused by the nuclear detonation heaving the Earth's magnetic field out of the way, followed by the restoration of the magnetic field to its natural place. *The E3 component has similarities to a geomagnetic storm caused by a very severe solar flare. Like a geomagnetic storm, E3 can produce geomagnetically induced currents in long electrical conductors, which can then damage components such as power line transformers.*
> 
> *Because of the similarity between solar-induced geomagnetic storms and nuclear E3, it has become common to refer to solar-induced geomagnetic storms as "solar EMP." At ground level, however, "solar EMP" is not known to produce an E1 or E2 component.*
> ...


*Geomagnetically induced current*


> Geomagnetically induced currents (GIC), affecting the normal operation of long electrical conductor systems, are a manifestation at ground level of space weather.


*Faraday Cage*


> Faraday cages cannot block static or slowly varying magnetic fields, such as the Earth's magnetic field (a compass will still work inside).


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

FWIW, I too have a BSEE and a little bit of experience in emf shielding. *labotomi* is correct in what he's written on this thread about the effects of a CME and its differences from an EMP.


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

Great posts and knowledge to be learned. So I gather that if a Carrington Event or larger does have an effect on power transformers, then I assume that all the lines from that station are conductors to houses, factories, gas stations, and one connected to the lines power station and whatever is on line when the geomagneitic effects hit the transformer station will then effect all connected to it. Am I wrong? If so please correct in simple terms. Not that I am simple, just an old and retired Intell Analyst, USAFSS.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Anything attached to the grid would have some degree of risk. Something with a microprocessor, connected to the grid has substantially more risk especially if it has no "hard" power switch as these are typically "always on". Surge protectors may not help at all (as with lightning) but depending on the design a physical on/off switch may help.


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

cowboyhermit said:


> Anything attached to the grid would have some degree of risk. Something with a microprocessor, connected to the grid has substantially more risk especially if it has no "hard" power switch as these are typically "always on". Surge protectors may not help at all (as with lightning) but depending on the design a physical on/off switch may help.


When I was at NSA 1968-71 we had protections on all electrical impulse equipment, and anything that plugged into the wall. Tehre we interfearers on all outgoing metal pipes, etc. I was at Fairchild AFB, a while ago in an office and noticed protections on some equipment power plugs. I get the impression that most types of microproccessor items the general public purchases certainly would not be protected, except by the owner with a good faraday cage. Again I emphasize, that we are entering an Interstellar Galectic Energy Cloud for the next 2000 years, as we re-enter our spiral galaxy going through it again. This combined with a plausible Carrington Type or better event might make everything that science predicts invalid, because there are now equations in the mix that we have never delt with except theroetically. No two events are ever the same. For example if we happen to get a a new Carrington Event, it could be smaller or larger, and if very large the gamma radiation from it might end all anyway.


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## jeremiyah (Feb 13, 2009)

popcorn590 said:


> A while ago I asked about Faraday Cages. Between this forum and other sources I finally built two large Faraday Cages.


Just saw this, and this idea has prolly been posted before, but in case anybody does not know, Microwave ovens, made to keep frequencies in, make good Faraday boxes to keep EMPs out. DO NOT CUT THE CORD; ground it, and you can either strip the three wires and put in a ground clamp on a ground rod, or whatever, but do ground it!!! 
Store radios, External Hard Drives, etc, in these. Scrounge old ones from appliance centers, etc. Hey, they also make great rodent proof bread boxes, etc!!!

jeremiyah


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

jeremiyah said:


> Just saw this, and this idea has prolly been posted before, but in case anybody does not know, Microwave ovens, made to keep frequencies in, make good Faraday boxes to keep EMPs out. DO NOT CUT THE CORD; ground it, and you can either strip the three wires and put in a ground clamp on a ground rod, or whatever, but do ground it!!!
> Store radios, External Hard Drives, etc, in these. Scrounge old ones from appliance centers, etc. Hey, they also make great rodent proof bread boxes, etc!!!
> 
> jeremiyah


What you suggest works good. Glad some are getting ready just in case, no matter what science says. To many varriables going on in our section of space during the next ten years of solar maximum.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Yeah but where is that darn solar maximum? We were expecting some crazy northern lights this winter but there were only a few really powerful days One thing for sure, science still does not have solar cycles figured out completely, first they though it would be a big solar max, then a small one :dunno:


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## gabbyj310 (Oct 22, 2012)

I've checked out yard sales,Salvation Army Store and consignment shops and finding old microwaves for as low as 10.00 a piece,yep I have 3,one very old very heavy old one and two smaller ones.I've got my computer,flashligts and radios as well as a few other things in them.Sure hope they work.


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## jeremiyah (Feb 13, 2009)

Right, if it is like a lighting strike three miles away which blew all phones, PCs -our friends phone almost exploded.
They said it came in on phone line, not electrical line.

External Hard Drives, especially -I have one with a lifetime of research, well organized in files, 2 TB; keep stuff like that in Faraday Cage. Spare sets of Walkie Talkies, Short Wave Radio, Flash Drives, etc.

jeremiyah


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## jeremiyah (Feb 13, 2009)

And we have friends, he was Pentagon, who only buy Panasonic Hardbooks; Hardened, both physically as well as electronically; see You Tubes on Motorola Vs Panasonic, or Mythbusters, I think it was. Neither stood up to dynamite; oh well...


jeremiyah


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

cowboyhermit said:


> Yeah but where is that darn solar maximum? We were expecting some crazy northern lights this winter but there were only a few really powerful days One thing for sure, science still does not have solar cycles figured out completely, first they though it would be a big solar max, then a small one :dunno:


We got through the meander minimum that was the last then years. We just entered into the solar maximum at the end of 2012 officially. This will go on for about ten years, as has been recorded over the past as ten year cycles. So there is plenty of time for those solar storms. I hope we do not have it. I know we have had some disruption, directv told me that had trouble with satellites, and other stuff is happening. I say stuff because again I believe we are enetering into a total unkown area with so many veriables this time in space and the area of space we are now going through. We could go on with valcanos, earthquakes comet, meteors (Apophis - spelling), and much more. The only items I feel that makes me and some others feel in as much control as we can get it to prepare. We are taking as much control of our destinys as we can by preparing and stocking up. Being prepared before the 1960's was as regular as the sun coming up. Most everyone canned, grew gardens and other such thing, Most families are 9 meals away from starvation, the local supermarket, if their was a run on it becasue of a disaster by locals only, has 3 days supply of food. Preservation of gas is a must for those that live in outer areas. All you have to do is Sta-bil it every 6 months and it is good. To many do not know about survival. Example, how many people out there have more than 4 boxes of bandaids in reserve. Next time you get a cut, from the first bandaid to the last count how many you have used. It will shock you. How many have, extra soap, de-natured alcohol, peroxidie, betadine, other medical material, emergency medicine in the wilderness books, toilet paper, paper towels, extra canning lids and screw tops, extra canning bottles, lots of extra sugar stored, extra sea salt stored (here is one. we purchased sea salt by the gallon from Cash - in - Carry every time we went to town for $6.92 a gallon. One day last year I went into the store and it was $16.92 a gallon. Sugar has near doubled over the past four years, white rice has near doubled,, flour has gone up more that is normal, and on and on. We store extra wheat germ, dried peas, 1/2 and whole, barley, white rice, beans, beans and more beans. We also stock up on all spices (a good trade item), all kinds of pasta, we make the soups and stews from the Gifts in a Jar books, great emergency food at the ready, and on and on. We make sure we have manual tools for everything from a hydraulic wood splitter, emergency stove, propane, burners, cooker that uses charcol, propane and wood, dutch ovens, extra sleeping bags, and plenty of blankets, lots of cotton swabs, I could go on and on. but evryone has a different idea of prreperation. One should prepare the way that is best for them, within their own persoanl budget. Do what is confortable for you. I personally get the greatest feeling going into our basement after five years of stocking up, and feel pretty secure with all hte canned goods, meals, vegetable, jellys, and the on sale canned goods, and materials. So all have to do what is best for them. Take care and remember, Knowledge is power the lack of knowledge will enslave or destroy you.


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

One thing I want to say. 
Being retired military, I will say one thing, that today most young people do not grasp. First: When others know a person is a prepper, making a bunker, stocking up on food, and stuff, it seems that some in the media and many other people degrade those that prepare as, wackos. I hate to tell all those people that do condem people that prep, BUT The United States Government is also a Prepper. They have stockpiles of food for years, they have weapons and plenty of ammo, they have many undergorund bunkers that will house government officials and their families, they have operating rooms, and medicine, kitchen, motor pools, storage of fuels, vehicles, comm equip that is faraday protected from EMPs and CMEs, and on and on. So if the Government is a prepper, why do so many feel it is okay for them, but not okay for the average citizen? My last assignment in the USAF was at Vandenberg AFB, Ca. 1974-83 I was manager of all single enlisted quarters on the base. I was also a shelter manager with all the radiological equipment, chem suits, etc. I know and have read what the governemnt does to prepare, and now in my opinion, it is not for an external war or invasion. They know something in coming, whether an EMP from Korea, China or the former Soviet Union which is now re-starting the cold war, a comet or meteor strike, economic collapse, or whatever, they are getting ready. There is nothing to protect We The People except the us people. This is what makes me mad, we are fools if we prepare, but the government is not. If a disaster comes try to enter their facilites for portection or food, good luck. My answer is prepare for any disaster to the extent that you are comfortable.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

The solar cycle that you are refering to that is about 10 years (9-14) is measured from maximum to minimum. So you don't get ten years of solar maximum, the maximum is the peak and activity goes down from there, in about ten years it will hit minimum and begin climbing again. 
There are longer cycles as well, which would include the maunder minimum which I believe you were refering to, this actually happened a long time ago (late 1600's). The dalton minimum was more recent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maunder_Minimum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_variation

Anyways if we have in fact already reached solar maximum in 2012 it was a pretty lame one imo. It looks like it may have been pushed back to fall of 2013 though. 
It has been years since the northern lights were really active like when I was younger

Just adding a link for the current cycle we are in. (looks like a rather unimpressive maximum)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cycle_24


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

cowboyhermit said:


> The solar cycle that you are refering to that is about 10 years (9-14) is measured from maximum to minimum. So you don't get ten years of solar maximum, the maximum is the peak and activity goes down from there, in about ten years it will hit minimum and begin climbing again.
> There are longer cycles as well, which would include the maunder minimum which I believe you were refering to, this actually happened a long time ago (late 1600's). The dalton minimum was more recent.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maunder_Minimum
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_variation
> ...


Agree with you completely. The ten year mark for both is just a number they pick because it is an average overall. The 1600 maunder (I use maunder just for reference, I should say warming) minimum is recent, it is just one that seems to show the differences between the two. The 1600 one was one of the greatest warming trends ever recorded while humans wee around to notice, there were population explosions, Europe was growing grains and having a grand old time with a really warm climate. Then came the down side as the mini ice age, that had it's effect into the late 
1800's, before it started another warming trend until now. In the 1970's it was predicted that we were entering another mini iceage at around this time. Remember they were so worried about us going into an ice age back in the 1970's they even suggest the transport aircraft spray ach/soot all over the polar ice caps to stop the cooling. Again Science is always an experiment. Anyone can study climatic changes over the last 550 million years with reports of cliff faces that show growth periods during warmer and colder times, and deep drilled ice cores. There have been many warming and cooling trends over those millions of years. It seems according to the records kept the earth has had nominal warming and cooling trends in the last centuries compared to the millions of years. I cut blow-down wood for farmers and their records from the 1880's in our area and some families records back to the early 1800's that came to this area in 1880 show warming and cooling trends small and large all the time. The farmers kept records all the time. They had to. So the warming and cooling, in my opinion is axis tilt, orbital distance closer and futher from the sun, solar activity and the oceans warming or cooling as this mini iceage of 2010 into how long whao knows, and was predicted in the 1970's. Areas of the Earth are going through much cooler times now and some are going through much warmer times now. It happens and will continue to happen when we are all gone. So I suggest suck it up, change from warm weather garden crops to cool weather gardens crops with shorter growing seasons. Get little plastic green houses that are easy to put up and take down for tomatoes and such to get the starts going for longer season vegetable you want, so you do not have to bring the tomatoes in and spread them around the house to rippen, whent he frost is close. Just my thoughs ans some suggestion I use for weather and growing season changes.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

I agree. Humans need to stay adaptable, it is our greatest ability. That being said so many people are always looking for the "right way" to do things that the majority of people convince themselves they are unable to adapt. Diversity is key, as long as there is enough variation then there will be a way that works.


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

cowboyhermit said:


> I agree. Humans need to stay adaptable, it is our greatest ability. That being said so many people are always looking for the "right way" to do things that the majority of people convince themselves they are unable to adapt. Diversity is key, as long as there is enough variation then there will be a way that works.


Absolutley. All people have to do is look at early history. Can anyone imagine during cold winters living the way the Eskimos, Samoyed, American Indians, and others lived, survived and did well. Adaptation is the key. We live on the Palouse of Washington State. Five years ago we had two really great growing seasons. Tomatoes were planted from seed in the ground and rippend on the vine. Three years ago we had a cooling tend that has continued to date. Almost everyone in our town are farmers or retired farmers and to a tee, they all say here we go again for a few years having to change our gardens to cool weather vegetables, with short growing season. We stated that and are doing pretty well, some cool weather vegetables are not my cup of tee, but they are good and easy to grow so we do it. We have a crock and did 35 pounds of saurkraut the old way. Then canned it and it is great. This year I am planting field peas, then till them in when they are about a foot tall with leaves and straw, then plant another crop to harvest then till the tops in for nitrogeon. The next year we will plant once again. We canned over 150 quartes of tomatoes five years ago and about 80 the next year. We canned so much stuff, meats and meals that we are good for a couple of years at least. I am going to order about 50 lbs of Roma tomatoes from the farmers market and make sause with oregano, or whatever in it. Plus green peppers for jelly, we already have over 250 1/2 pints canned. We have an apple tree and make sause from it. Blueberry bushes, grapes, raspberrys, strawberries, plus a couple of plum trees, a pear tree and two new apple trees. If one does it right it is so easy to have all this and get really great food, that canned properly will last litterally forever. Canned food 100 years old was tested by a univeristy and although it had degraded in the jar is was still edible. A fruit cake was properly treated and over 100 years old and was tested, and as much as I hate fruit cake, unless I can smother it with that sweet white sause, it was still edible. When you can food it should be in a year round basement temp of about 65 and limited light. That is optimal storage, but it is still good as long as it is not super hot and cold in storage. Canning is so easy I do not know why others do not do it. I know a food inspecter that gets so upset when his kids throw out food that passed its use by date. His advise is if the can buldges throw it out, if it smells bad throw it out, but after all that if you still have to eat it, A ROLLING BOIL for 30 Minutes, will make it safe to eat. Hope I never have to try that. So much has been lost and when most of us older people are gone, well, I do not know what most will do when everything goes South, which will happen if all countries keep going the way they are. Hell the UN is looking at a way to raise crickets and other stuff for a food source because the world CAN NOT produce enough Beef to feed the world. This last winter it was reported that the human race finally reached the point of no return with the birth of the 7 billionth child. We reached the point of no return by what they say where the earth can not produce enough food to feed all. We really do not produce enoughnow so I do not know what that was about, except to put out a report. Take care and keep the faith


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

popcorn590 said:


> Absolutley. All people have to do is look at early history. Can anyone imagine during cold winters living the way the Eskimos, Samoyed, American Indians, and others lived, survived and did well. Adaptation is the key. We live on the Palouse of Washington State. Five years ago we had two really great growing seasons. Tomatoes were planted from seed in the ground and rippend on the vine. Three years ago we had a cooling tend that has continued to date. Almost everyone in our town are farmers or retired farmers and to a tee, they all say here we go again for a few years having to change our gardens to cool weather vegetables, with short growing season. We stated that and are doing pretty well, some cool weather vegetables are not my cup of tee, but they are good and easy to grow so we do it. We have a crock and did 35 pounds of saurkraut the old way. Then canned it and it is great. This year I am planting field peas, then till them in when they are about a foot tall with leaves and straw, then plant another crop to harvest then till the tops in for nitrogeon. The next year we will plant once again. We canned over 150 quartes of tomatoes five years ago and about 80 the next year. We canned so much stuff, meats and meals that we are good for a couple of years at least. I am going to order about 50 lbs of Roma tomatoes from the farmers market and make sause with oregano, or whatever in it. Plus green peppers for jelly, we already have over 250 1/2 pints canned. We have an apple tree and make sause from it. Blueberry bushes, grapes, raspberrys, strawberries, plus a couple of plum trees, a pear tree and two new apple trees. If one does it right it is so easy to have all this and get really great food, that canned properly will last litterally forever. Canned food 100 years old was tested by a univeristy and although it had degraded in the jar is was still edible. A fruit cake was properly treated and over 100 years old and was tested, and as much as I hate fruit cake, unless I can smother it with that sweet white sause, it was still edible. When you can food it should be in a year round basement temp of about 65 and limited light. That is optimal storage, but it is still good as long as it is not super hot and cold in storage. Canning is so easy I do not know why others do not do it. I know a food inspecter that gets so upset when his kids throw out food that passed its use by date. His advise is if the can buldges throw it out, if it smells bad throw it out, but after all that if you still have to eat it, A ROLLING BOIL for 30 Minutes, will make it safe to eat. Hope I never have to try that. So much has been lost and when most of us older people are gone, well, I do not know what most will do when everything goes South, which will happen if all countries keep going the way they are. Hell the UN is looking at a way to raise crickets and other stuff for a food source because the world CAN NOT produce enough Beef to feed the world. This last winter it was reported that the human race finally reached the point of no return with the birth of the 7 billionth child. We reached the point of no return by what they say where the earth can not produce enough food to feed all. We really do not produce enoughnow so I do not know what that was about, except to put out a report. Take care and keep the faith


Well, maybe the movie, Soylent Green, was not far off the mark.


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## d_saum (Jan 17, 2012)

gabbyj310 said:


> I've checked out yard sales,Salvation Army Store and consignment shops and finding old microwaves for as low as 10.00 a piece,yep I have 3,one very old very heavy old one and two smaller ones.I've got my computer,flashligts and radios as well as a few other things in them.Sure hope they work.


I wouldn't bother with microwave ovens.. but that's just me. As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, I'm going with cardboard boxes wrapped in aluminum foil. I can wrap any size box, and getting more is easy enough. Also.. if you want to be extra safe, you can put an item in a small box (like, maybe the one it came in), wrap that in foil, and then place that, along with other wrapped items, in a larger wrapped box. Again.. just make sure there are no gaps or holes in the foil. Cheaper, easier, and takes up less space than a big bulky microwave.

By the by.. there are plenty of videos on Youtube showing how effective aluminum foil is at stopping emp type signals and RF.

Just my $.02


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

I guess if you want to just have stuff packed away then the foiled box would work. For me though it makes more sense to have something that is convenient to use on a regular basis. Something that you can just open up and take inventory, rotate things in and out, drop in something you just picked up, etc. The more effort involved in doing something like this the less likely it is to get done regularly a year down the road, imo.


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## db2469 (Jun 11, 2012)

cowboyhermit said:


> I guess if you want to just have stuff packed away then the foiled box would work. For me though it makes more sense to have something that is convenient to use on a regular basis. Something that you can just open up and take inventory, rotate things in and out, drop in something you just picked up, etc. The more effort involved in doing something like this the less likely it is to get done regularly a year down the road, imo.


I agree...I'll be using galvanized steel cans, cardboard on the bottom, items wrapped in ant-static bubblewrap then foil...do I need to tape it shut? What kind of tape, if needed?


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## jeremiyah (Feb 13, 2009)

The friend who was Pentagon, BTW, said that some of the shielding Faraday protection on the Pentagon is....chicken wire???


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## d_saum (Jan 17, 2012)

jeremiyah said:


> The friend who was Pentagon, BTW, said that some of the shielding Faraday protection on the Pentagon is....chicken wire???


Nu-uh! lol.. if that's true, that's crazy!

On another note.. I've heard ammo cans make good faraday boxes! You could use those for your easy access items. Most of my stuff is/will be, not needed UNTIL an EMP/Solar flare event, but I totally understand the need for some to get into their stuff, and I agree, the foil thing is not optimum for that. :beercheer:


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

db2469, like a lot of this stuff some people say you should tape it with aluminum tape others say it should be fine. As long as the lid fits tight imo tape is not necessary. You can do the radio test thing to make sure it fits tight. The nice thing with galvanized cans is that you get a good electrical connection between lid and can since there is no paint.


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## Skeeter (Nov 7, 2009)

After 6 pages I hate to jump into this, but, What I'm not getting is don't the cages have to be grounded for the electricty to have somewhere to go?...run on sentence, I know.


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## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

Viking said:


> What's interesting about the Carrington event is that in turning telegraph wires red hot, they wouldn't have been on a closed circuit as far as I can understand unless the telegraph key contacts were closed as in sending a message. It seems what happened is that the impulses from the solar flare generated very large amounts of electricity in those lines. The forces of nature can really mess with what we see as normal. If those lines were anything like the old telephone lines that used to follow the railroad down past our place they were iron or copper plated iron wires. It would have been interesting to see the Northern lights during that event as I've read that they were observed as far South as the Caribbean Islands.


Telegraph wires are always on a closed circuit except when someone is sending a message. The telegraph key is opening and closing the circuit.


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## d_saum (Jan 17, 2012)

Skeeter said:


> After 6 pages I hate to jump into this, but, What I'm not getting is don't the cages have to be grounded for the electricty to have somewhere to go?...run on sentence, I know.


If you were trying to protect a building maybe.. but a small faraday box/cage? no.. There are some people who think that grounding them is actually worse because then you are creating an easier path and attracting more of a charge... I think.. Something like that anyway.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

cowboyhermit said:


> Yeah but where is that darn solar maximum? We were expecting some crazy northern lights this winter but there were only a few really powerful days One thing for sure, science still does not have solar cycles figured out completely, first they though it would be a big solar max, then a small one :dunno:


I just read a few days ago that the solar maxim may be extended into 2014. Oh great, I've been delaying installing my solar power system for the peak that was supposed to happen this year, oh well we still have relatively low cost grid power and we are switching to LED's as often as we are able to afford to do so. Anyway maybe by doing a few things to reduce electrical use we can keep the power company wolf away from our door until it's safe to put up our panels. As to grounding faraday cages, I've always heard that they need to be grounded with as short of a wire possible.


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

jeremiyah said:


> The friend who was Pentagon, BTW, said that some of the shielding Faraday protection on the Pentagon is....chicken wire???


It is a mesh copper wire for the Pentagon, NSA, CIA, Homeland Security, and other Government bldgs. Where the rub is, is that normal people feel if the private citizen does this were a fools and crackpots while the government does it and that is okay, GO FIGURE.


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

d_saum said:


> If you were trying to protect a building maybe.. but a small faraday box/cage? no.. There are some people who think that grounding them is actually worse because then you are creating an easier path and attracting more of a charge... I think.. Something like that anyway.


There are always going to be contradictions, I personally would rather be safe than sorry. On all my posts I mentioned an AGW 3 or 4 ground wire from the faraday cage to a deep ground rod in the ground deep enough to readch and go into the damp soil year round level.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

popcorn590 said:


> There are always going to be contradictions, I personally would rather be safe than sorry. On all my posts I mentioned an AGW 3 or 4 ground wire from the faraday cage to a deep ground rod in the ground deep enough to readch and go into the damp soil year round level.


Simple question...

Since electrical current requires a complete current path, what circuit does the grounding of the cage complete?


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

labotomi said:


> Simple question...
> 
> Since electrical current requires a complete current path, what circuit does the grounding of the cage complete?


It can dissipate a charge, just like a wire strip hanging from a vehicle, or fuel trucks that connect a ground wire before pumping.


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## d_saum (Jan 17, 2012)

popcorn590 said:


> On all my posts I mentioned an AGW 3 or 4 ground wire from the faraday cage to a deep ground rod in the ground deep enough to readch and go into the damp soil year round level.


That's great that you mentioned a ground wire... but if my aluminum wrapped box is sealed, and no EM waves can penetrate.. why do I need to ground it? Just wondering because.. do you honestly think the box is going to retain that charge indefinitely? Personally.. I'm thinking no.

Also.. EMP waves penetrate soil. I'd be worried about that ground acting as an antenna and bringing even more of a charge back up to my box/faraday cage.

From This Wiki:

"The worst effects of a Soviet high-altitude test occurred on 22 October 1962, in 'Operation K' (ABM System A proof tests) when a 300 kt missile-warhead detonated near Dzhezkazgan at 290-km altitude. The EMP fused 570 km of overhead telephone line with a measured current of 2,500 A, started a fire that burned down the Karaganda power plant,* and shut down 1,000-km of shallow-buried power cables between Aqmola and Almaty.*"


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

In the example provided those cables were insulated from the ground, opposite from a ground wire, current is induced in them in the same way as in above ground power lines.


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

labotomi said:


> Simple question...
> 
> Since electrical current requires a complete current path, what circuit does the grounding of the cage complete?


Since the EMP, beginning path is the low yeield nuke, or massive CME electro magnetic pulse, beginning path is the Sun, is searching for a ground (the Earth) you have given it a pathway around the electrical items you want saved and to the ground wire that completes the circuit through the grounding rod and to the earth.


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## jeremiyah (Feb 13, 2009)

d_saum said:


> That's great that you mentioned a ground wire... but if my aluminum wrapped box is sealed, and no EM waves can penetrate.. why do I need to ground it? Just wondering because.. do you honestly think the box is going to retain that charge indefinitely? Personally.. I'm thinking no.
> 
> Also.. EMP waves penetrate soil. I'd be worried about that ground acting as an antenna and bringing even more of a charge back up to my box/faraday cage.
> 
> ...


On grounding and damp soil: Commercial grounding systems and old Earth Batteries, use a drip system with Epsom Salts in solution to keep ground at peak conductance.

jeremiyah


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

popcorn590 said:


> Since the EMP, beginning path is the low yeield nuke, or massive CME electro magnetic pulse, beginning path is the Sun, is searching for a ground (the Earth) you have given it a pathway around the electrical items you want saved and to the ground wire that completes the circuit through the grounding rod and to the earth.


The sun is in no way searching for the. ground. Some lightening travels from the ground to the sky. That would make the ground the highest potential energy source. Power would travel from that high potential to the low potential in the sky

All electrical circuits return the power back to the source. With an EMP why does the actual ground play ant part other than to send people in the wrong direction and to gain nothing and potentially worsen the situation


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

jeremiyah said:


> On grounding and damp soil: Commercial grounding systems and old Earth Batteries, use a drip system with Epsom Salts in solution to keep ground at peak conductance.
> 
> jeremiyah


Epsom salts are a good idea, it increases the ground. Just curious, did you mean Alma-ata in your statement?


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

labotomi said:


> The sun is in no way searching for the. ground. Some lightening travels from the ground to the sky. That would make the ground the highest potential energy source. Power would travel from that high potential to the low potential in the sky - NOT WHEN IT COMES FROM OUTER SPACE, IT WILL SEEK THE GROUND.
> 
> All electrical circuits return the power back to the source. With an EMP why does the actual ground play ant part other than to send people in the wrong direction and to gain nothing and potentially worsen the situation


When I said the sun it is meant as the originating point of the Elctro Magnet Storm that comes by the earth in the massive CME with a portion entering the earth upper atmosphere, once in the atmposphere, it seeks out the grounding agent which is the earth. The rest goes on past us to wherever.


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

popcorn590 said:


> When I said the sun it is meant as the originating point of the Elctro Magnet Storm that comes by the earth in the massive CME with a portion entering the earth upper atmosphere, once in the atmposphere, it seeks out the grounding agent which is the earth. The rest goes on past us to wherever.


 The EMP is the positive transmission seaching for the negative, being earth. The Size of the EMP when it comes by computer chip items, builds enough static and energy around the item that it destroys the chips.


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

Popcorn, you're talking about 2 different things here which have very different effects.
A CME is basically a radiation event.
An EMP (HEMP) is basically an electrical event.
The only crossover in their effects is on long conductors (miles long) such as power lines.

As labotomi has already pointed out, the radiation flux from a CME causes the protective radiation belts (Van Allen Belts) surrounding the Earth to move which induces a current in long electrical transmission lines. The effect is due to the length of the wire(s) in a moving magnetic field. 

Have you ever taken apart a motor or generator? There's not just 1 winding of wire; there's usually hundreds of windings. Think of your home electronics as a generator with only 1 winding. It won't produce much power in since it isn't efficient. Similarly, your home electronics won't produce much power in a CME since there's not enough of a winding to induce a current.

In an EMP/HEMP, there are 3 different effects of which only the E3 is similar to a CME. The E1 & E2 from an EMP/HEMP are what destroys electronics. The E2 has similar effects to a lightning strike and overvoltages unprotected electronics. The E1 likewise overvoltages electronics, but is due to the gamma ray burst ionizng air molecules in the atmosphere. When I say overvoltage, I mean that the semiconductor breakdown voltage is exceeded which destroys the semiconductor junction itself and ruins the semiconductor.

You don't need a Faraday cage to protect against a CME.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

d_saum said:


> From This Wiki:
> 
> "The worst effects of a Soviet high-altitude test occurred on 22 October 1962, in 'Operation K' (ABM System A proof tests) when a 300 kt missile-warhead detonated near Dzhezkazgan at 290-km altitude. The EMP fused 570 km of overhead telephone line with a measured current of 2,500 A, started a fire that burned down the Karaganda power plant,* and shut down 1,000-km of shallow-buried power cables between Aqmola and Almaty.*"





cowboyhermit said:


> In the example provided those cables were insulated from the ground, opposite from a ground wire, current is induced in them in the same way as in above ground power lines.


cowboyhermit;
commercial power lines are grounded systems meaning they already have a point in the circuit connected to ground potential. Every isolated circuit is grounded such as across transformers. The statement that these are insulated from the ground is false.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

cowboyhermit said:


> It can dissipate a charge, just like a wire strip hanging from a vehicle, or fuel trucks that connect a ground wire before pumping.


Why is this done and what does it have to do with a faraday cage?


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

popcorn590 said:


> Since the EMP, beginning path is the low yeield nuke, or massive CME electro magnetic pulse, beginning path is the Sun, is searching for a ground (the Earth) you have given it a pathway around the electrical items you want saved and to the ground wire that completes the circuit through the grounding rod and to the earth.


This is the result of assumptions based on a bad choice of terminology. I truly wish they had never picked "ground" as the term to use in electrical circuits. Many times it's misleading or downright incorrect... eg. What is the "ground" on your vehicle? Is it the frame or the Earth? Are the frame and Earth at the same electrical potential? If not then why is the frame termed "ground"? If you connect a wire from Earth ground to the positive battery terminal, is it going to cause it to discharge? No, it's not. This is the same as what you're stating when you say that this positive from a CME is going to seek the negative of the Earth.

A CME does not seek out "ground potential". Why would the sun reference it's potential to the potential of the Earth? It is not attracted to the Earth, it does not have an affinity for the Earth. The Earth is irrelevant... completely.

The only time a charge seeks ground potential is if the common side of the source is already connected to ground. This makes the ground part of the circuit.

I'm trying to say this as politely as I can but you keep on going down a path you don't understand and giving out false information to others.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

popcorn590 said:


> The EMP is the positive transmission seaching for the negative, being earth. The Size of the EMP when it comes by computer chip items, builds enough static and energy around the item that it destroys the chips.


First of all, a CME does not produce a positive source. It moves the magnetic fields which oscillate back and forth like a guitar string. 
Second, when it's moving one direction, it's going to induce a positive voltage in the conductors, when it's moving the other way, it's going to induce a negative voltage. 
At one point in time the "ground" as you keep putting it, is going to have a lower potential than induced voltage in the conductors. This would make current flow *FROM* your box through your ground strap to the Earth. At other times the "ground" would be at a higher potential than the conductors and current will flow from the ground *TO* your box.

Thanks to you putting a ground strap on this Faraday Cage, you've now caused it to become a conductor of low frequency AC current whereas leaving off the straps would only cause a "very" slight buildup of AC voltage. You wouldn't even be able to read the increased voltage with a multimeter.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

labotomi said:


> cowboyhermit;
> commercial power lines are grounded systems meaning they already have a point in the circuit connected to ground potential. Every isolated circuit is grounded such as across transformers. The statement that these are insulated from the ground is false.


Come on Labotomi, now you are being intentionally obtuse. I am sure you know very well the difference between a ground cable embedded in the earth and a buried power transmission line. I am sure you can easily determine how those differences will effect a induced current on the conductors. If the wires were not insulated along their length from the ground, and each other, any 6th grade kid can tell you that they won't work.

With regards to the wire on fuel trucks it is done to prevent explosions obviously. Not just on fuel trucks but aircraft and many other situations, it is why you should touch the metal pumps before pumping gas, and also why women cause more gas station explosions than men (they get in and out of the vehicle while pumping and then don't touch the vehicle or pumps.


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

Marcus said:


> Popcorn, you're talking about 2 different things here which have very different effects.
> A CME is basically a radiation event.
> An EMP (HEMP) is basically an electrical event.
> The only crossover in their effects is on long conductors (miles long) such as power lines.
> ...


We are not talking about a small 1,2,3 or 4 CME we are talking about a Carrington Type Event that was a 5 or 6 or more. With those comes a massive Electro Magnetic Pulse.


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

popcorn590 said:


> We are not talking about a small 1,2,3 or 4 CME we are talking about a Carrington Type Event that was a 5 or 6 or more. With those comes a massive Electro Magnetic Pulse.


If a CME is not damaging then why do scientists contimue to talk about a Crrington Type Evnet putting theEarth back into the early 1800's. Type in your seach engine "Damage from a CME Electomagnetic Pulse." Then later type in "Will a Faraday cage protect from a CME." As has been stated there is no worry about the 1,2,or 3 CME, it is the massive 5 or 6 lever, that can last from seconds to hours to days. The scale they go by on the phone warning system about CME's is 1,2,3,4,5, and 6. The 5 and 6 being massively damaging. For the minimal cost to make a Faraday cage does anyone want to take the gamble ------------------- that a Faraday Cage is Not Needed for a massive CME! Being prepared means just that, being prepared according to all best scientific information, and at times, our Sixth sence, that is the final internal warning of situations that can, would, or could be of danger to us and ours.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

popcorn590 said:


> There are always going to be contradictions, I personally would rather be safe than sorry. On all my posts I mentioned an AGW 3 or 4 ground wire from the faraday cage to a deep ground rod in the ground deep enough to readch and go into the damp soil year round level.


For the most part in the area where we live the summers have very little rain and the soil can dry out very deeply to where common electrical and phone grounds are not doing their job. Electrical potentials for shock can happen and phones get noisy so what I sometimes do is dump a lot of water around the grounds and it does work. I have been driving 8 foot ground rods at the four corners of our home to ground our rib lock roof panels and so far with just two the radio signals barely get inside.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

labotomi said:


> cowboyhermit;
> commercial power lines are grounded systems meaning they already have a point in the circuit connected to ground potential. Every isolated circuit is grounded such as across transformers. The statement that these are insulated from the ground is false.





cowboyhermit said:


> Come on Labotomi, now you are being intentionally obtuse. I am sure you know very well the difference between a ground cable embedded in the earth and a buried power transmission line. I am sure you can easily determine how those differences will effect a induced current on the conductors. If the wires were not insulated along their length from the ground, and each other, any 6th grade kid can tell you that they won't work.


Actually what I stated was factual. A 6th grader might think he knows what's happening as it seems you do as well, but the truth is that most distribution systems are grounded and the ones that claim to be ungrounded are by nature capacitively grounded. The US power distribution system runs on a grounded system. The transformers have a connection to the common tap on transformers wired directly to ground. Without this, the ground point in your home would be useless.

Note the earth ground connected directly to the transformer.










According to you, this system wouldn't work (It's a grounded delta connected transformer)










Here's an entire article that describes the grounding of electrical equipment. Please read it or at least look at the diagrams. I'm not bothered by you calling me obtuse as most people don't understand what grounding actually means as opposed to what most think it implies.

*http://electrical-engineering-portal.com/types-of-neutral-earthing-in-power-distribution-part-1*


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

popcorn590 said:


> If a CME is not damaging then why do scientists contimue to talk about a Crrington Type Evnet putting theEarth back into the early 1800's. Type in your seach engine "Damage from a CME Electomagnetic Pulse." Then later type in "Will a Faraday cage protect from a CME." As has been stated there is no worry about the 1,2,or 3 CME, it is the massive 5 or 6 lever, that can last from seconds to hours to days. The scale they go by on the phone warning system about CME's is 1,2,3,4,5, and 6. The 5 and 6 being massively damaging. For the minimal cost to make a Faraday cage does anyone want to take the gamble ------------------- that a Faraday Cage is Not Needed for a massive CME! Being prepared means just that, being prepared according to all best scientific information, and at times, our Sixth sence, that is the final internal warning of situations that can, would, or could be of danger to us and ours.


Nobody is saying a CME isn't a threat. We're saying that a Faraday Cage will not in any way protect anything from a CME. We've discussed the mechanism that causes damage due to a CME and why it will not cause damage to small electrical or electronic equipment unless connected to long conductors. I even pointed out that the links you provided supported my statements and that you were mixing and matching the effects of a CME and an EMP. I also said it's your money and time to do with as you choose. I haven't seen anyone with a scientific or engineering background in this thread support anything you've stated.

Any google search for "will a faraday cage protect from a CME" only I repeat only brings up links to survivalist sites and sensationalistic articles. Not one reputable source. If you type in "faraday cage EMP" then the search results return scientific data.

Just because YOU don't understand something doesn't mean others don't understand it either. I can give you down to the molecular level what happens during a nuke explosion to cause an EMP. If you would take a little time and look up the requirements for generating voltage using a magnetic field you might start to understand what's happening during a CME.

All this talk about


popcorn590 said:


> we are talking about a Carrington Type Event that was a 5 or 6 or more. With those comes a massive *Electro Magnetic Pulse.*


Now you're trying to say a large CME causes an EMP? This is complete nonsense. The effects of the Carrington event are well understood. It wasn't an EMP by any means.


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## popcorn590 (Aug 29, 2010)

Viking said:


> For the most part in the area where we live the summers have very little rain and the soil can dry out very deeply to where common electrical and phone grounds are not doing their job. Electrical potentials for shock can happen and phones get noisy so what I sometimes do is dump a lot of water around the grounds and it does work. I have been driving 8 foot ground rods at the four corners of our home to ground our rib lock roof panels and so far with just two the radio signals barely get inside.


I can not verify this but have heard to increase a ground epsom salts can be used. If I were in a dry area and have this problem, I would get a gas post hole digger and go down as deep as I could. Then get a 8 to 10 foot grounding rod and pound it in leaving about five inches above the ground level. Next I would put crushed rock or walk path tinny rocks in the hole to the top. Next I would just make sure I wet that area every day. Where the epsom salts might come in is for another person. This is just a suggestion by what I know of grounding. I am sure others will have a different idea. I did take Electical Classes in School and have worked with wiring all my life and with the circuit boxes, etc. So I have some experiance about electricity. BUT I AM NO EXPERT. What I have stated above is just a suggestion for discussion from others.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

labotomi, I said you were being *intentionally* obtuse, If I am wrong I apologize. 
It is hard for me to imagine someone with your background having trouble with these concepts, like not understanding the grounding of fuel tankers etc.
Since you seem to be the only one having difficulty with the difference between a ground within a circuit and an uninsulated ground wire/rod I am not going to spend a lot of time looking for ways to explain what should be obvious to anyone with a rudimentary understanding of electricity, maybe you are overthinking this.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

With regards to the grounding issue, we have to establish really good grounds because our power is single wire earth return, there is only one wire coming to our properties, the earth completes the circuit. I am not sure how common that is in the U.S, luckily most of our land has a good clay base and getting a ground is not too difficult, just need to go DEEP.
Another reason we do a lot of grounding is with electric fencers, most people don't realize just how important the ground is with these things. We have doubled the lengths of ground rods we use and put more of them and had much better luck with fences.
As far as the epsom salts go they would act as "electrolytes" in the water I suppose, making it a better conductor. Distilled water of course will not conduct electricity. I wonder how much they would help if dried out and also whether they would encourage corrosion on the ground rod. Oxides can make a ground much less effective in certain circumstances.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

cowboyhermit said:


> labotomi, I said you were being *intentionally* obtuse, If I am wrong I apologize.
> It is hard for me to imagine someone with your background having trouble with these concepts, like not understanding the grounding of fuel tankers etc.
> Since you seem to be the only one having difficulty with the difference between a ground within a circuit and an uninsulated ground wire/rod I am not going to spend a lot of time looking for ways to explain what should be obvious to anyone with a rudimentary understanding of electricity, maybe you are overthinking this.


No need. If we're not on the same subject I apologize. I'm aware of grounding for safety with respect to static electricity. We had to "equalize potential"' whenever doing a transfer on the submarine which while it isn't technically "grounding" it's serves the same purpose.

The ex is visiting the kids from out of state so I'm probably a little distracted.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

cowboyhermit said:


> With regards to the grounding issue, we have to establish really good grounds because our power is single wire earth return, there is only one wire coming to our properties, the earth completes the circuit. I am not sure how common that is in the U.S, luckily most of our land has a good clay base and getting a ground is not too difficult, just need to go DEEP.


Single leg grounded systems are not as common as they used to be but there's still remote areas where this setup is used. It's against the US codes so special permission must be granted to use this type. Maybe some are grandfathered in.


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## Outpost (Nov 26, 2012)

I'm not even thinking about preparing for an EMP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse

Any EMP that would clobber my stuff would have to be induced by a nuclear device. In that case, the EMP is the least of my worries.

Power outage? Yup. That has my attention. One good Nor'Easter and we could be toast for weeks. It's happened here before... It'll happen again... for whatever reason. So, a no-power situation, be it localized or wide-area, is certainly realistic.

I do what I can, within reason, to protect against lightning (considering that my entire life is on my home servers and laptop)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_strike 
Big-A$$ed U.P.S.s and Faraday cages can help there, a little.... (non-fiberglass bodied vehicles are good for human protection because the metallic "SKIN" of the vehicle tends to shunt the current around the occupants, rather than through us, but I'll bet my dashboard compass goes apeshit in the process!).

As for Gamma-Bursts... the side of the planet that suffers a gamma burst will get completely sterilized, so I'm not going to bother.

I suppose a localiaed EMP weapon (maybe in the form of a Flux Compression Generator Bomb) { http://www.howstuffworks.com/e-bomb3.htm} may be something to worry about... (if I attract enough attention and make it worth the expense of being targeted.... but that's probably a pretty fantastic leap into delusional-level self-worth).

I probably have more to fear from "Tempest Attacks".....

Hey labotomi......! Got any good plans for a Tempest Room?

:canofworms-opened:

<ducking and running>
:brickwall:


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

When I was employed by the local school district in the custodial/maintenance department I had a Limited Industrial Electrical License, about every two years I had to take classes to keep up the license and there was three areas of National Electrical Code that were in those classes. I seem to remember Grounding and Bonding was always one of the classes so it's pretty much stuck in my mind how important grounding is and so if a friend is running power to a shed away from their homes power panel I always tell them to install a ground rod just outside of the sub panel that's in the shed. Back in the 1950's grounding must have been hit or miss because I remember my foster dad hooking up a welder one time and when he was using it a neighbor got a shock off of their kitchen sink faucet. What's interesting is that every other power pole along our county road has a ground rod.


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

Outpost said:


> I'm not even thinking about preparing for an EMP
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
> 
> Any EMP that would clobber my stuff would have to be induced by a nuclear device. In that case, the EMP is the least of my worries.


Not necessarily. Let's say a rogue state with ICBMs launched a satellite or two into a low earth orbit. Then 30 days later, the satellite detonated over the continental US producing an EMP. Then 45 minutes later, another satellite did the same thing.

The US would in effect be transported back to the early 20th Century with all non-hardened/sheltered semiconductors rendered inoperable. There'd be about 200,00 dead (avg # of airline passengers at any given time) plus those who require electronics to live (pacemakers, life support, undergoing some surgeries, etc.) Yet there'd be no damage to anything physical beyond electronics and the electrical grid. Even the retaliatory strike would likely not raise radiation levels worldwide by very much.

So you're alive but nothing electronic works and the grid is down.


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## Outpost (Nov 26, 2012)

Marcus said:


> So you're alive but nothing electronic works and the grid is down.


Yup.

If the grid is down, and it would take the kind of detonations your scenario uses, saving *my* electronics is, like I said, the least of my (our) worries. But, even that scenario won't kill everything. Never the less, I'm still planning on low-tech. People depend way too much on technology.


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## d_saum (Jan 17, 2012)

Outpost said:


> I'm still planning on low-tech. People depend way too much on technology.


I agree wholeheartedly.. :beercheer: I DO want to protect some things though... and, it'd be damn nice to have a running vehicle. But yes.. I want to be able to get things done the old fashioned way. :cheers:


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## Outpost (Nov 26, 2012)

:beercheer:


d_saum said:


> I agree wholeheartedly.. :beercheer: I DO want to protect some things though... and, it'd be damn nice to have a running vehicle. But yes.. I want to be able to get things done the old fashioned way. :cheers:


Vehicles can be an invaluable resource, as long as there's fuel for them. I've just become so disgusted with the reliability of the contemporary automobile, even in ideal conditions, that I just can't bring myself to be reliant on one in a SHTF scenario.

I'd actually like to find something that uses good ol' points, condenser, and a real distributor with a rotor and cap.... getting scarcer than hens-teeth though.....

Those things *WILL* run, even under a localized nearby EMP. (no friggin' computer on board to crap out).

:beercheer:


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## d_saum (Jan 17, 2012)

Outpost said:


> :beercheer:
> 
> Vehicles can be an invaluable resource, as long as there's fuel for them. I've just become so disgusted with the reliability of the contemporary automobile, even in ideal conditions, that I just can't bring myself to be reliant on one in a SHTF scenario.
> 
> ...


Well.......... I'll tell you what.. if I had the property for it, I'd have a couple of horses, and maybe a wagon. I really think in another life, I was a cowboy... I just love riding, and as a bonus, they are EMP proof. 

My BOV is a 1990 GMC Jimmy... and I've got the list of parts for my faraday box in case we do get hit.. so in the event, she may be down, but not out. And I'm thinking of keeping the parts in an old ammo can in the vehicle, so even if I'm out and about, I'll have the parts on hand!


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## jeremiyah (Feb 13, 2009)

popcorn590,

I just C&Pd it; I wondered what you meant, as I did not notice that; very sharp) 
Curious: HOW /WHY did you notice?

Answer: Almaty (Kazakh: Алматы / *Almatı, i.e. "father of apples" or "father of apple trees") *is the former capital of Kazakhstan and the nation's largest city, with a population of 1,472,866 (at 1 December 2012)

The Declaration of Alma-Ata was adopted at the International Conference on Primary Health Care (PHC), *Almaty (formerly Alma-Ata),* Kazakhstan (formerly Kazakh Soviet Socialist Republic), 6-12 September 1978.

jeremiyah


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## jeremiyah (Feb 13, 2009)

d_saum said:


> Well.......... I'll tell you what.. if I had the property for it, I'd have a couple of horses, and maybe a wagon. I really think in another life, I was a cowboy... I just love riding, and as a bonus, they are EMP proof.
> 
> My BOV is a 1990 GMC Jimmy... and I've got the list of parts for my faraday box in case we do get hit.. so in the event, she may be down, but not out. And I'm thinking of keeping the parts in an old ammo can in the vehicle, so even if I'm out and about, I'll have the parts on hand!


EMP PROOF; SWEET!!! ONLY PROBWUM IS....
THEY HAVE LEAKY FUEL TANKS!!! 

I love the Signature line!!!

40MM Big Thumper 
*The historical reality of the Second Amendment's protection of the right to keep and bear arms is not that it protects the right to shoot deer. It protects the right to shoot tyrants, and it protects the right to shoot at them effectively, thus, with the same instruments they would use upon us.* .50 Ma Deuce


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## Outpost (Nov 26, 2012)

jeremiyah said:


> EMP PROOF; SWEET!!! ONLY PROBWUM IS....
> THEY HAVE LEAKY FUEL TANKS!!!


Yes, but their exhaust grows *GREAT BIG VEGGIES!*


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## jeremiyah (Feb 13, 2009)

Outpost said:


> Yes, but their exhaust grows *GREAT BIG VEGGIES!*


and not too hot for sweet potatoes almost pure...plus make compost tea, etc

jeremiyah


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