# EMP proof a 91 Chevy K5 Blazer?



## d_saum

So.. in my searches, I've come across a 91 blazer, with a 350 with throttle body injection. I know that it has a computer tied to it... and I'm just wondering since my big fear is EMP/Solar Flare... is there a good way to EMP proof this thing if I buy it? Or do I just have to order spares? If so.. what parts? It appears to be all stock, and in good shape. I was originally just looking for an older blazer with a carb, but they are getting harder to find. Thanks in advance!


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## Redtail

The simplest way to do it would be to swap the TBI for a carb and replace the dashboard. No more computer. Your alternator is probably already shielded against anything that wouldn't kill you. 

The less costly, but arguably much more labor-intensive and potentially less effective way would be to wrap a fraraday cage around anything even remotely resembling a computer, anything connected to anything remotely resembling a computer, and anything connected to those things. And any long lengths of wire where electricity might accumulate. Or antennas. Or coils. Basically the whole car. 

And don't expect your radio to work afterward. 

I'd go with the first case, myself. Cut the risk to an acceptable minimum, and switch to a carbureted system that you can also much more easily convert to run on alcohol or propane. 

Something else you might be interested in, while switching to a carb. There are conversion kits available to either replace, or sit underneath, a 4bbl carb, to respectively either allow the use of propane as a fuel, or to allow you to switch back and forth from gasoline and propane as fuels. I think I remember them being about $400 and $600 respectively.


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## zombieresponder

It's neither easy nor cheap, but a swap to an older mechanically controlled cummins diesel like the 4bt or 6bt will be emp proof and yield far better fuel mileage than the gas 350, on the order of 23+ mpg from what I've been reading. It's a swap I plan to make on my 84 K5 blazer. Check out www.4btswaps.com


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## d_saum

zombieresponder said:


> It's neither easy nor cheap, but a swap to an older mechanically controlled cummins diesel like the 4bt or 6bt will be emp proof and yield far better fuel mileage than the gas 350, on the order of 23+ mpg from what I've been reading. It's a swap I plan to make on my 84 K5 blazer. Check out www.4btswaps.com


I appreciate the idea.. and no doubt the diesel would have benefits, but I really don't want to spend the money and/or the time (and hassle) to swap it over. If I was going to do that, I'd do it to my Wagoneer.

I also thought about swapping the throttle body over to a carb set up.. but what I'd really like to know is, what spare parts would I need in an EMP event? Just the computer for the injection? What about ignition? (and yeah.. I know about, and am not too concerned about losing my radio...lol). :beercheer:


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## Caribou

I would get myself a Chilton (or similar) Manual for that vehicle. I would go through the manual and get a spare for everything that was electronic or electrical. This is not an all inclusive list but some things to think of computer, turn signal switch, wiper motor, alternator, starter, spare bulbs especially any LED's, gages, sensors, window motors. Any spares, of course, should be stored in a faraday cage.

The car itself will provide a certain amount of shielding. If you are lucky enough to be parked underground or in a metal roofed and sided garage so much the better. Some portions of the electrical system are likely to survive intact but there is no way to tell which. Two cars side by side may have different problems. Priority should be given to systems necessary to keep operating. For example, in Seattle wipers are critical component, in Phoenix not so much.

The first thing to do after an EMP is to disconnect the battery for a bit then reconnect and see if any systems reboot. You may luck out and be able to get going. Remember since the vehicle provides some protection it is possible that certain things are just scrambled and not fried.


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## Tirediron

Is this truck a leaf spring front carry over or an independant front style??

If it is a carry over, going carb and hei or points is really easy, the independant would be a bit more work, but the trans if automatic is still cable controled. a 6.5 chev bolts right into the mounts and transmission and should beat a BT4 for power and milage, I get 21 mpg from a dually 1 ton, seen lots better from lighter stuff. 
If you buy a manual for the truck get a Haynes, not a chiltons but make sure it has the specific year that you need. 

A length of chain drug from the chassis is supposed to be enough to keep an emp from frying things, but who knows for sure. ecms and distributor modules should be cheap and plentyfull for that age of tbi, so that might be easier, a spare known good distributor would be a good idea too.


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## SlobberToofTigger

Don't bother. The government study on EMP effects on vehicles pretty much showed that the worst that will happen is if your vehicle is running it may shut down. If it is affected and shuts down you just turn the key and restart...


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## HamiltonFelix

A 350 with TBI. Should be pretty easy to swap to carb and points & condenser ignition. Just think of it as a 1969 Chevy when you are done. That type of ignition wants occasional tune-ups, but it's simple and spares for every component won't amount to much.

A 1991 is the last year of the second generation Blazer. With solid axles and leaf springs, you have durability, and suspension upgrades are easy. For Blazer and smallblock Chevy you can get about any aftermarket item you want. This is an easier vehicle to support than my 1999 Grand Cherokee with NV 247 transfer case and Quadra Drive. Without taking a position on Ford vs Chevy or Dodge, I prefer solid axles for durability (I do own a 96 Suburban with IFS, as well as a 1986 F250 with Twin Traction Beam front end).


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## WatchUr6

d_saum said:


> So.. in my searches, I've come across a 91 blazer, with a 350 with throttle body injection. I know that it has a computer tied to it... and I'm just wondering since my big fear is EMP/Solar Flare... is there a good way to EMP proof this thing if I buy it? Or do I just have to order spares? If so.. what parts? It appears to be all stock, and in good shape. I was originally just looking for an older blazer with a carb, but they are getting harder to find. Thanks in advance!


Thanks for starting this thread. I have an 85 K5, which I've been thinking about doing the same. The previous owner swapped out the 305 and put in a 350 with fuel injection. It runs good, but I might buy a Carb and store it away if I ever need to swap out.


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## Redtail

You may also need a new intake manifold. And throttle linkage. And ECU. And dashboard.


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## Mase92

Just a quick search because I've always heard that EMP's won't affect a car.

http://jalopnik.com/5937778/how-to-prepare-your-car-to-handle-an-emp-and-why-you-shouldnt-bother



> So it looks like most cars would not be seriously affected. This is largely the result of a car's wiring and electronics already being pretty well shielded against electromagnetic interference (so you can, you know, still listen to the radio and not the noises made by your fuel injection computer) and because your car can act a bit like a big Faraday cage.


http://www.empcommission.org/


> The EMP Commission was established pursuant to title XIV of the Floyd D. Spence National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2001 (as enacted into law by Public Law 106-398; 114 Stat. 1654A-345). Duties of the EMP Commission include assessing:
> 
> the nature and magnitude of potential high-altitude EMP threats to the United States from all potentially hostile states or non-state actors that have or could acquire nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles enabling them to perform a high-altitude EMP attack against the United States within the next 15 years;
> the vulnerability of United States military and especially civilian systems to an EMP attack, giving special attention to vulnerability of the civilian infrastructure as a matter of emergency preparedness;
> the capability of the United States to repair and recover from damage inflicted on United States military and civilian systems by an EMP attack; and
> the feasibility and cost of hardening select military and civilian systems against EMP attack.
> The Commission is charged with identifying any steps it believes should be taken by the United States to better protect its military and civilian systems from EMP attack.
> 
> Multiple reports and briefings associated with this effort have been produced by the EMP Commission including an Executive Report (PDF, 578KB) and a Critical National Infrastructures Report (PDF, 7MB) describing findings and recommendations.
> 
> The EMP Commission was reestablished via the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2006 to continue its efforts to monitor, investigate, make recommendations, and report to Congress on the evolving threat to the United States from electromagnetic pulse attack resulting from the detonation of a nuclear weapon or weapons at high altitude.


http://www.empcommission.org/docs/A2473-EMP_Commission-7MB.pdf <---is a 180+ book on what the study came up with.


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## Caribou

Thanks for the link Mase! I will be interested in reading the rest of the report. The thing that has me scratching my head is, if an EMP is of so little import why would the military harden so many of their vehicles? I agree that things may not be as bad as we fear but I will continue to prep for a worse case scenario as finances permit.


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## zombieresponder

d_saum said:


> I appreciate the idea.. and no doubt the diesel would have benefits, but I really don't want to spend the money and/or the time (and hassle) to swap it over. If I was going to do that, I'd do it to my Wagoneer.
> 
> I also thought about swapping the throttle body over to a carb set up.. but what I'd really like to know is, what spare parts would I need in an EMP event? Just the computer for the injection? What about ignition? (and yeah.. I know about, and am not too concerned about losing my radio...lol). :beercheer:


I don't know much about the TBI setup that GM used. I suspect that you would need to change the intake manifold if you go to a carb. If they were still using the HEI distributor, then you'll probably want at least a spare coil and ignition module. The ignition module isn't a bad idea anyway since they sometimes fail without any warning. If the fuel pump is electric rather than the old mechanical style, it's something else to consider.


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## Tirediron

TBI gms did NOT use the stand alone HEI distributor, they use a smaller distributor with a hall effect switch rotor and cap, timing is controled by the ECM. , you could just rewire a module from a hei into the loop, but the timing would not advance.


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## Tirediron

Mase92 said:


> Just a quick search because I've always heard that EMP's won't affect a car.
> 
> http://jalopnik.com/5937778/how-to-prepare-your-car-to-handle-an-emp-and-why-you-shouldnt-bother
> 
> http://www.empcommission.org/
> 
> http://www.empcommission.org/docs/A2473-EMP_Commission-7MB.pdf <---is a 180+ book on what the study came up with.


Yeah you should trust a study written for the very same people that tell you gun control will lower crime. :nuts:


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## Mase92

Tirediron said:


> Yeah you should trust a study written for the very same people that tell you gun control will lower crime. :nuts:


Its really sad that the only sources we want to believe is those that reflect our interest. But let me ask, these are the same people that are talking about gun control? Looks to me like Finestien has ZERO to do with this and it is more about Doctors and retired military. Oh, I get it now, it has something to do with the government and they all know they all have the same agenda, they all communicate perfectly and are all looking to screw those of us prepping for an EMP over. 

So with that said, I am totally going with your point of view. I mean why would I believe a group of people who took time to research, study, educate and put together 180 pages of info on said subject? That would be silly....:sssh:



> Caribou - Thanks for the link Mase!


NP, there is a wealth of info out there. Prepping for the worst is my policy too. You never know what will happen. We can never be 100% sure on our preps. To many variables, so you have to make your mind the ultimate prep and stock it with info and hope for the best.


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## zombieresponder

Mase92 said:


> Its really sad that the only sources we want to believe is those that reflect our interest. But let me ask, these are the same people that are talking about gun control? Looks to me like Finestien has ZERO to do with this and it is more about Doctors and retired military. Oh, I get it now, it has something to do with the government and they all know they all have the same agenda, they all communicate perfectly and are all looking to screw those of us prepping for an EMP over.
> 
> So with that said, I am totally going with your point of view. I mean why would I believe a group of people who took time to research, study, educate and put together 180 pages of info on said subject? That would be silly....:sssh:
> 
> NP, there is a wealth of info out there. Prepping for the worst is my policy too. You never know what will happen. We can never be 100% sure on our preps. To many variables, so you have to make your mind the ultimate prep and stock it with info and hope for the best.


Unless it's verifiable from an independent source, anything the gov't says should be viewed as a lie.


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## Mase92

zombieresponder said:


> Unless it's verifiable from an independent source, anything the gov't says should be viewed as a lie.


So go ahead and find something that contradicts this and we can start a conversation. Until then, it will be a tin foil hat discussion.

But here are a few more: (But feel free to research this yourself. Google is your friend - its simple and brings up results almost instantly. At best I can find is the quote below...its unknown so again, I'll take the advice of PhD's and retired military over the likes of Alex Jones etc...) But arguing on the 'net is useless 'specially if the party on the other side brings nothing to the conversation other than distrust. Good day!!



> While it was once believed that an EMP would destroy a car's engine, research has found that the majority o, even modern, cars will at worst stall and restart.


Read more: How to Protect Your Car From EMP | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_7928262_protect-car-emp.html#ixzz2KSnPvbH0



> Your car might survive due to its metal body but that shielding has gaps, so maybe it won't, it's kind of dicey to predict.


http://set2survive.com/EMP_survivors_notebook_1.html


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## zombieresponder

Mase92 said:


> So go ahead and find something that contradicts this and we can start a conversation. Until then, it will be a tin foil hat discussion.
> 
> But here are a few more: (But feel free to research this yourself. Google is your friend - its simple and brings up results almost instantly. At best I can find is the quote below...its unknown so again, I'll take the advice of PhD's and retired military over the likes of Alex Jones etc...) But arguing on the 'net is useless 'specially if the party on the other side brings nothing to the conversation other than distrust. Good day!!
> 
> Read more: How to Protect Your Car From EMP | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_7928262_protect-car-emp.html#ixzz2KSnPvbH0
> 
> http://set2survive.com/EMP_survivors_notebook_1.html


I'm fairly certain that if it weren't a viable threat, the military wouldn't bother with protection measures on any of their vehicles. Second, you undoubtedly voted for liars if you have ever voted at all.

http://www.damninteresting.com/starfish-prime/

http://www.ctbto.org/specials/infamous-anniversaries/9-july-1962starfish-prime-outer-space/

But, I'm just a "tinfoil hatter", right?  BTW, jones is a douchebag.


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## Mase92

zombieresponder said:


> I'm fairly certain that if it weren't a viable threat, the military wouldn't bother with protection measures on any of their vehicles. *Second, you undoubtedly voted for liars if you have ever voted at all. *
> 
> http://www.damninteresting.com/starfish-prime/
> 
> http://www.ctbto.org/specials/infamous-anniversaries/9-july-1962starfish-prime-outer-space/
> 
> But, I'm just a "tinfoil hatter", right?  BTW, jones is a douchebag.


WOW you know me so well! As you said, yes I voted, and news flash THEY ARE ALL LIARS! 

I agree the military comment. On the links...um, its 2013 and not the 1960's, did you read the links? They have zero to do with EMP effects on modern cars or cars period and say nothing about what it will do to them.
Nice try! 
I'll spell it for you so it will help -G O O G L E- effects of an EMP on a car/vehicle and then press enter.


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## Tirediron

Mase92 said:


> WOW you know me so well! As you said, yes I voted, and news flash THEY ARE ALL LIARS!
> 
> I agree the military comment. On the links...um, its 2013 and not the 1960's, did you read the links? They have zero to do with EMP effects on modern cars or cars period and say nothing about what it will do to them.
> Nice try!
> I'll spell it for you so it will help -G O O G L E- effects of an EMP on a car/vehicle and then press enter.


Did you have some special filter that left out any destructive effects???
http://gabriellecusumano.blogtownha...ers,_cars_and_most_other_modern_gadgets.thtml

A panel can find what ever they are told by their funders to find.

Current electronic management systems are many more mannetudes more suseptable to damage than stuff from the 60s, it doesn't take much of a voltage spike to mess an "modern" ECU up, but if you dont believe me just go hook 24 volts up to YOUR car and see what happens to the "robust" system. I have seen what an shorted voltage regulator does.


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## Caribou

Tirediron, check out the number of posts mace has before you get too responsive.


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## Mase92

Caribou said:


> Tirediron, check out the number of posts mace has before you get too responsive.


What does that have to do with anything? :nuts:


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## Mase92

Tirediron said:


> Did you have some special filter that left out any destructive effects???
> http://gabriellecusumano.blogtownha...ers,_cars_and_most_other_modern_gadgets.thtml
> 
> *A panel can find what ever they are told by their funders to find.*
> 
> Current electronic management systems are many more mannetudes more suseptable to damage than stuff from the 60s, it doesn't take much of a voltage spike to mess an "modern" ECU up, but if you dont believe me just go hook 24 volts up to YOUR car and see what happens to the "robust" system. I have seen what an shorted voltage regulator does.


Thanks, That's a solid article but doesn't quite get to the nuts and bolts. And I agree on the "why would the military be working to stop the effects" but It seems after reading it, this tech is still in the planning and unconfirmed stage. In other words depending on what you want to believe and source you look at, you will therein find your answer. You can believe whatever story you read on Google.

BTW that story you linked says this:


> But despite years of research and development, there is little sign of their deployment. The prospect of knocking out communications and other
> electronic systems is attractive, *but commanders prefer proven weapons
> with known effects.*


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## Tirediron

Well IF most automobiles do live after a large Grid down event it will be worse than if they hadn't,


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## Mase92

Tirediron said:


> Well IF most automobiles do live after a large Grid down event it will be worse than if they hadn't,


Ya know what? I totally agree with that. No gas will cause chaos! Good point.


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## HamiltonFelix

I'm a Hydroelectric Operator, been running powerhouses since 1974. A friend, another Operator, bought a new VW Passat and drove to Maine to see his parents. While parked in their driveway, lighting struck a tree next to the drive. Both his car and his parents' car were dead in the water. Eventually, the parents' GM product was repaired, which included replacement of three processors, A/C, Transmission and Engine Management. My friend's Passat was towed to the nearest dealership, where they went over it, consulted with insurance, then TOTALLED the vehicle and wrote him a check. He bought a new Toyota Matrix and drove home.

That's a small localized "natural" EMP. It so thoroughly wiped out an otherwise perfect and new vehicle that they did not try to repair it.

There's a lot of information and misinformation out there on the Web. Certainly, our military and ruling class know about it and have taken steps - but not for civilian infrastructure. The best "predictive novel" treatment of this is "One Second After" by William R. Forstchen. It has been introduced in Congress. I suggest getting the book, and beginning by reading the brief non-fiction afterword by U.S. Navy Captain William Sanders, regarding EMPs, which includes references to the reports of the United States EMP Commission and the book The Effects of Nuclear Weapons by Samuel Glasstone and Philip J. Dolan, published by the United States Department of Defense, which is considered to be the standard reference on nuclear weapons effects. BTW, the Russians stuck with vacuum tube radios in their military jets for many years; not because they are technologically backward, but because tube radios are far less sensitive to the EMP expected with a nuclear detonation.

Remember, this is well known. It has been rather obvious since the Starfish Prime tests of 1962 knocked out street lights in Hawaii.

The sun can cause, and has caused, EMP effects here. Take a look here: http://www.resilience.org/stories/2011-06-19/solar-storms-emp-and-future-grid
The most severe solar storm known was in 1859, and telegraph operators saw their equipment go crazy, even setting fire to paper strips that recorded dots and dashes.

In 1989 and 1994, minor solar storms knocked out communication satellites, shut down power plants, and disrupted the electrical grid. These were _minor_ solar flares.

Whether it's old Sol or a hostile nation, we're not talking "if," we're talking "when." While some government facilities are protected (an Electrician friend has worked in the AWACS Building at Boeing Field in Seattle, and you wouldn't believe how much taxpayer funded copper was used protecting that place), our own infrastructure is not. I can tell you that the generating plants on place in the 1960's would be recoverable after an EMP, but today's plants will be junk and will be down for months. The kind of parts we use cannot be simply bought from the hardware store.

I think it's prudent to consider life, with our without automobiles, after an EMP has hit us. Plan accordingly. My newest appliances, incuding gas range and gas dryer, actually "boot up" when power comes on. There's NO doubt they will suffer from an EMP.

I miss my simple diesel Yanmar tractor. Other than the starter motor, it had no need at all for electricity. A similarly equipped pickup truck would be nice to have.

I have some HAM radio friends. There's a possible source to consult if you're wondering what it would take to make your garage a Faraday cage.

I heartily endorse the plan of "EMP-proofing" a Blazer.


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## SlobberToofTigger

Lightening and EMP are pretty different effects so using them as an indicator of each other will cause your desired results to diverge a good bit.


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## HamiltonFelix

That's true. The lightning anecdote is merely an illustration of the fact sensitive electronics can be destroyed by outside electrical activity that does not touch them. 

In the case of EMP, there are two different components at work, one of which wreaks havoc with long electrical lines and can build up very high currents, the other of which tends to pop fragile electronics. 

But you're right, I can't directly compare the single large DC arc of lightning with EMP, whether caused by a fission device or solar storm.


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## franco

There is no way to know exactly what to expect. Some cars will be more resistive than others. The best thing to have in my opinion will be a carbureted Chevy with electronic ignition. The distributor is fully self contained. It would be easy to shield and have a spare in a metal box. Get one from a junkyard and in 10 min swap will put you back on the road. Most cars are well shielded to eliminate static on the am radios. Keep in mind that an emp that will take out transformers would probably take out anything with wire coils. Cars are full of coils. Relays ignition coils, starters, alternators electric fuel pumps just to name a few. Since it is difficult to simulate emp it will be a guess at best IMHO


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## SlobberToofTigger

I would say that franco just won the reasonableness award! Just buy some spare parts and then don't worry about it. If your stuff gets fried swap out the parts.


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## Tirediron

franco said:


> There is no way to know exactly what to expect. Some cars will be more resistive than others. The best thing to have in my opinion will be a carbureted Chevy with electronic ignition. The distributor is fully self contained. It would be easy to shield and have a spare in a metal box. Get one from a junkyard and in 10 min swap will put you back on the road. Most cars are well shielded to eliminate static on the am radios. Keep in mind that an emp that will take out transformers would probably take out anything with wire coils. Cars are full of coils. Relays ignition coils, starters, alternators electric fuel pumps just to name a few. Since it is difficult to simulate emp it will be a guess at best IMHO


This is the most accurate info on EMPs that I have seen:beercheer:


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## Trailblazer68

High all new here but a couple things id like to mention. First off keep in mind im still researching some things on this so take what i say with a grain of salt not gospel. 

Ok so on the vehicles themselves. Being an early 90s vintage remember that they have more steel than newer cars to help shield electronics. Also the electronics on gms old tbi system are relatively basic and so less susceptible to emp spikes. Unlike newer cars like the before memtioned vw. Those new cars run mostly on whats called a b-can system. That system is a complex interconnected network of small individual computers for every electronic function of the car and its accessories. These computers all talk to eachother constantly and just one of them going wonky will cause havoc with other systems. I once worked on a newer kia that had a missfire and hard start because of a window switch computer. 

The engine itself, is very basic. Easily upgraded and tuned with basic tools. The 350 also was used in some mines and plants to run vehicles off propane. So they are already able to do so with minor swaps. Ask your parts shop next time there. The system they use will list a different vin code for a propane powered 350. So with some research you could probably gather the fuel system components for a swap to propane online easily. 

These old castiron 350s still have the port for a mechanical fuel pump. The block off plate is down by the passenger side near the front of the block. shaped like that house emoji. What other parts youd need to add i havent figured out yet more information is needed as im not to familiar with gms mechanical pumps. 

I believe they sell adapter plates to drop a carb directly onto the stock tbi intake. Im pretty sure ive them in the past. And there may be carbs that will drop directly on without modifications.

All of the electronic parts for these trucks are fairly cheap brand new. I picked up a new oem transmission ecu for my last k2500 for under 80bucks straight from the dealer. Stickshift is better obviously but automatics from this age arent bad. For example that same k2500 (92) had the 4l80e trans. They sell manual valvebody kits for them. The turbo 350 auto trans already had em. Distributors as mentioned before are easily swapped to older hei system if needed. 
Junkyards are your friend. You can pickup 90% of the spare electricals for pennies. Get doubles or even triples as junkyards are hit and miss. 

Getting back to propane setups. In the event you didnt have time gather tge necessary items to convery it you can get away with nothing more than an adjustable regulator and hose and piping it into the crankcase vent intake into the tbi. This is how you convert gas generators to propane the easiest simplest way. 

Parts are cheap and everywhere for these engines. Its probably one of the best possible choices for an after shtf scenario. 

(Oh on a side note they sell "grounding straps" you can hang and drag from your vehicle to discharge static electricity from the body. They wear since they dtag but its a possible extra layer of protection and more legal than dragging a chain lol)


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## phideaux

Welcome to Prepared Society,

Thanks for joining.


Jim


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## CrackbottomLouis

Say you had an extra vehicle that wasnt your daily driver that was kept in an unsheided garage. Would it work to have a couple rubberized vehicle covers layered with mylar emegency tarps or tinfoil that was grounded? Would something that simple be effective?


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## SheepdogPRS

First, solar EMPs and CME will not affect cars and electronics. Even if your computer is plugged in and running the solar EMP will likely never get to it.
Next any EMP generated by a ground burst or air burst nuclear device will only effect those devices within the center zone or about 1 mile from the blast. That EMP will be the least of your worries.
It takes a high altitude blast from a nuclear device to cause widespread damage due to EMP. Called an HEMP a blast from 120 miles up would not have the normal blast and radiation effects of a "normal" detonation. It would however generate an electrical phenomenon called an E1 pulse. The E1 pulse is not, in itself, an electromagnetic pulse like a radio wave. It is an extremely high voltage pulse cause by the ionization of the atmosphere through gamma bombardment displacing the electrons in the atmosphere. Those free electrons create a 50000 volt charge throughout the air and ground. The charge affects any metal and the voltage is what wipes out the electronics. Having diodes or transistors in a metal can simply charges the can and the electronics at the same time much like a capacitor is charged. If the electronics are not sealed in a capacitive layered structure the junction that makes them work will be burned out. The E1 pulse is generated in less than a nanosecond and covers the area from horizon to horizon from the bombs point of view. This voltage is nearly homogeneous throughout the entire area. The electronic components in your car will be fried. Any semiconductor or IC not shielded in a capacitive shield will be affected.
Remember that your battery and starter motor will not be affected but your alternator, electronic fuel injectors, electronic ignition and computers will not work. A computer sitting on a shelf in the warehouse will be just as dead.
The book and movie "One Second After" was a total nuclear exchange and the EMP effects were greatly exaggerated. Those ground and air bursts would not have done as much electrical damage as portrayed. It was a fictional story designed to build fear but it did so with fictional information and not hard facts. After Hiroshima and Nagasaki the radios in the area still worked just like the radios used in all the tests in the USA and in the pacific. It takes a high altitude blast like Starfish Prime to cause an E1 pulse and the EMP results.

There is a lot of trash information out there but there is also some very good information.


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## Trailblazer68

I woukd think that anything to help insulate an electrical charge would help to some degree. How effective would it be? Almost impossible to say. Electricity like water takes the path of least resistance. Thats a simplified reason as to why farada cages work


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## SheepdogPRS

A Faraday gage works to ground high voltages from a point source. When the air and ground for miles is charged to 50000 volts a Faraday cage is worthless. Even if you had a sealed metal container it just becomes the first plate of a capacitor and what is insulated on the inside becomes the other side of the capacitor and receives the same voltage in reverse polarity. E1 shielding requires at least four layers of capacitance to protect the stuff inside.


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## Trailblazer68

So even if you had a grounded faraday cage surrounding something electrical, with the "something" insulated from the outer cage layer the voltage still wouldnt be stopped?


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## SheepdogPRS

I am unsure what you call a Faraday cage but I will assume you are talking about a completely seal metal box with a computer in a heavy trash bag suspended magically in the center of the box. If the box was grounded it would connect to the same charge as it is in the ground too. The voltage continues throughout all the air and the ground to a depth of at least 10 meters.

An E1 pulse would saturate the metal box with a -50000 volt charge for every square meter. That voltage would then charge the computer to +50000 volt inside its insulation due to the capacitor effect.

Can your computer withstand that much voltage?


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## Trailblazer68

A propper faraday cage is a copper mesh enclosure to my understanding not just a metal box. I was thinking along the lines of either a metal or insulating plastic container inside a copper mesh outer liner. With the interior of the box lined with a reasonably heavy rubber material if i was designing one specifically for an emp. 

Actually id probably go with something like a "yeti" cooler for the main box.


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## Tweto

It might be smarter to just buy a 50's or 60's car from Mecum auto auctions. These cars are in good running order and are not too overly expensive. Say for about $10,000 or less you could buy a daily driver.


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## Trailblazer68

For 10k you could easily do a carb swap on an early 90s car. And a manual transmission swap too if you wanted. Youd likely have a couple grand left over for other preps as well.


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## CrackbottomLouis

Id love to have a CUCV. Diesel chevy blazer as simple as they come that will do just about anything. And it doesnt stick out like a sore thumb like othe military vehicles.


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## Trailblazer68

There isnt much diffence between the cucv and the civilian versions. Other than most were the heavier 3/4 or 1 ton suspension options. That and removed most all electronics like am/fm radios and power windows. Otherwise smae basic vehicles


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## SheepdogPRS

The problem with Faraday cages is they are designed to protect against lightning strikes where the power is dissipated in the ground and the only thing you are protecting is people.
The E1 pulse from an HEMP is not like lightning. The E1 pulse is 50000 volts per meter from the middle of the atmosphere to 30 feet under ground. Grounding rods only act as antennas or high conductive paths for this voltage to flow to what you are trying to protect.
A Faraday cage made of wire mesh has gaps that the air flows through. It won't even slow down the E1 pulse. Let's say you make a copper box with high quality insulation inside and you make both air tight. You have some electronic gear inside the box but completely insulated from the metal box. In an E1 pulse event the outer box is electrified to a full potential (50000 volts) very fast (about 1/2 of 1 millionth of a second). You have a metal plate (actually six of them to make a box) completely insulated on the inside and then your electronics on the insulated side. That sounds like a reasonable way to stop the flow of electricity. It is not! 
You have built a capacitor which is two metal plates separated by an insulator. When you apply voltage to one side the other side charges at a reverse but equal potential. So, by having your electronics in a copper box with very good insulation on the inside and your electronics sitting inside, your electronics become the second plate of the capacitor. Now there is a key here that can be used to stop the E1 pulse from affecting your electronics. It takes time to charge each plate of the capacitor. So you add another metal plate and another layer of insulation. Do that one more time and you have three layers that must each charge and it takes enough time that the voltage on the inside is greatly reduced and the voltage rises slower that the pulse. You need to use metal of high conductivity like silver, gold, copper or aluminum for the plates and your insulators must be high in dielectric strength.
Surprisingly a trash bag is made of a plastic that has over 4000 volts of dielectric strength per mil (.001"). Zip lock freezer bags have a similarly high dielectric strength. If you put your electronics in a plastic freezer bag, wrap it in an envelope of heavy duty aluminum foil with the edges double folded and repeat the process three times you have an easy to make and inexpensive shield that will stop any damage to your electronics.
This is nearly impossible to do for a car or a room and impossible to do for a whole house. Any metal that goes from the outside to the inside will carry the E1 pulse with it. Grounding rods, plumbing and your lights and outlets will all transmit the E1 pulse to the inside of a room.


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## Trailblazer68

So you need a layered defense but in reality thats cheaper and easier than building an actual faraday cage. 

Im curious though if it creates a capacitor effect could you eliminate some of the risk by attaching a simple circuit to it? Say a car battery with a large diode and resistors inline with the grounding phase? The battery would store some of the power the resistors would draw it down and the diode would ensure a singular flow to the battery. Could something along those lines work?


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## Tirediron

since most of the EMP research is theoretical and little real world testing has been done that is available in the public realm the whole thing is a hypothesis.
I pose this question since the whole field is charged, would there be any effect on isolated ie disconnected components ?


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## SheepdogPRS

Trailblazer68 said:


> Im curious though if it creates a capacitor effect could you eliminate some of the risk by attaching a simple circuit to it? Say a car battery with a large diode and resistors inline with the grounding phase? The battery would store some of the power the resistors would draw it down and the diode would ensure a singular flow to the battery. Could something along those lines work?


What would protect your circuit from the E1 pulse? Short answer is No, it would not help. The diode would be destroyed first. The capacitive effect is that during the short duration of the E1 pulse only the first couple of layers receive a full or nearly full charge. Each layer takes more time and the pulse stops before all the plates can charge. Your shield doesn't have or need any connections that would just draw more power to it anyway.


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## SheepdogPRS

Tirediron said:


> since most of the EMP research is theoretical and little real world testing has been done that is available in the public realm the whole thing is a hypothesis.
> I pose this question since the whole field is charged, would there be any effect on isolated ie disconnected components ?


Tirediron,
This question is often asked and the answer that I have accepted is that even discrete components sitting on a shelf in a warehouse will be affected. The reason is that the charge is 50000 volts per meter. That means that the charge is traveling through the air. It is not a stable charge like a battery but like an electrical wind. All those electrons are trying to get back to their proton partners. As the electrons pass through the components the junctions of the semiconductor will be eroded away. Encapsulation is not a defense and the smaller a component is the faster it will be destroyed. A very large diode, say a 1000 amp diode, may survive the E1 pulse but it is unlikely that it will perform within its specified range after the event. There have been no actual tests with an E1 pulse since 1962 and that test overpowered most of the test equipment and affected an area many times greater than was expected. All of the testing done today uses microwave or magnetic pulse bombs which really are not at all like the E1 pulse. A grounded grid or wave guide can be made to stop any microwave pulse and a magnetic pulse doesn't generate the electron displacement that the E1 pulse does. The only way to actually test shielding would be to set off a nuclear explosion in space or if we were hit by a gamma ray burst from a distant supernova. If the exploding star were too close it would just wipe the atmosphere into space as ionized gas and then burn us all into oblivion. The bomb is a lot less powerful.


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## Meerkat

We have 1995 ford van and 1986 Nissan pickup. Wonder if they will work?


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## SheepdogPRS

Anything with semiconductors will not function. Electronic ignitions and electronic fuel injection systems will not work. I have a 66 and two 73 vehicles and the only electronic parts are in the alternators, The alternators will need new diodes and new regulators in order to charge the batteries. Although I do have the spare parts packaged in shields the cars still need fuel which will rapidly disappear. I have a plan to switch over to alcohol as a fuel but to be efficient the compression ratio has to be close to 14:1. That means it will run only on alcohol or LPG and is just about worthless because you can only travel as far as 1/2 tank of fuel will take you. After the grid goes down running cars will be a prime target and I see little advantage in having one.


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## Trailblazer68

Theres quite a few advantages to having a running vehicle. Besides transport they can be used like the old steam tractors of the late 1800s and early 1900s to power other equipment such as pumps generators etc. They can become beasts of burden for hauling plowing etc. They can become what equates to a small tank. And a myriad other uses. Besides its just as easy to convert to a wood gasifier setup as a propane or alchohol. Diesel engines can run on things like oils. Originally they were designed to run on peanut oil.


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## SheepdogPRS

The reduced effect at greater distance is a fallacy promoted on the basis of radio wave power over distance. This is not a radio wave. The gamma particles displace electrons from atoms so the effect is locally generated. The bomb makes the gamma particles but the displaced electrons cause the E1 pulse. Distance is not a deterrent to the displaced electrons or the gamma rays. The effect of the pulse won't reach beyond the horizon as seen from the bomb because the gamma particles travel in a straight line at the speed of light. Traveling through 1500 miles of air does little to slow them down and they are displacing electrons until after they hit the ground.
I do agree that you should store your electronics somewhere that increases your odds - just how to provide that safety is where I can only wish you luck.


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## RedBeard

Trailblazer68 said:


> Theres quite a few advantages to having a running vehicle. Besides transport they can be used like the old steam tractors of the late 1800s and early 1900s to power other equipment such as pumps generators etc. They can become beasts of burden for hauling plowing etc. They can become what equates to a small tank. And a myriad other uses. Besides its just as easy to convert to a wood gasifier setup as a propane or alchohol. Diesel engines can run on things like oils. Originally they were designed to run on peanut oil.


I think the word your looking for is horse... Why is everyone so insistent on having their cars after an emp event? I was raises with horses so i will just go back to what i know works. Another words it seems to me people have placed electronics as a necessity instead of the convenience that they are.


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## Trailblazer68

Sure you can use horses if they are available. However how do you know they will be? Most folks have cars or can justify a second one. Horses are harder. They require fuel waste removal water and land. What if you dont have and or cant afford the land to keep a horse before the event? You worked with horses so im assuming You know the infrastructure they need. Cars need not so much less infrastructure but less space. Food that coukd be feeding you now has to be spent on the animal. And while i do believe there would be a time when youd go back to a majority beast of burden life it wont be immediately. Nor does it need to be. Compared to keeping horses buying and storing spare parts is cheap.


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## RedBeard

Trailblazer68 said:


> Sure you can use horses if they are available. However how do you know they will be? Most folks have cars or can justify a second one. Horses are harder. They require fuel waste removal water and land. What if you dont have and or cant afford the land to keep a horse before the event? You worked with horses so im assuming You know the infrastructure they need. Cars need not so much less infrastructure but less space. Food that coukd be feeding you now has to be spent on the animal. And while i do believe there would be a time when youd go back to a majority beast of burden life it wont be immediately. Nor does it need to be. Compared to keeping horses buying and storing spare parts is cheap.


Your not wrong but in the country there is no shortage of horses either...


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## Meerkat

Tirediron said:


> since most of the EMP research is theoretical and little real world testing has been done that is available in the public realm the whole thing is a hypothesis.
> I pose this question since the whole field is charged, would there be any effect on isolated ie disconnected components ?


 I still have that old van you helped me with several years ago. Doing great and it loves to roll so saves on gas.


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## Trailblazer68

No not now. Imagine all the people that dont currently have a use for horses coming to the same idea that they are a better option though. Think youve still got enough running around?


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## RedBeard

Trailblazer68 said:


> No not now. Imagine all the people that dont currently have a use for horses coming to the same idea that they are a better option though. Think youve still got enough running around?


Yes because maybe a quarter of them can actually handle a horse. Well that and my sister owns a giant horse farm so it's no problem for me. Many advantages to growing up a farmer.


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## terri9630

Maybe where you are. Out here there isn't enough forage to feed horses (or groups of people)in a confined area. That's a large part of why Indians were constantly moving. And why so much alfalfa is grown.


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## terri9630

RedBeard said:


> Yes because maybe a quarter of them can actually handle a horse. Well that and my sister owns a giant horse farm so it's no problem for me. Many advantages to growing up a farmer.


And what of all those that don't own horses, where are they going to get them all of a sudden? Are you just going to give them yours or your sisters.


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## sgtusmc98

My two cents, from all the studies I’ve seen we don’t know what’s gonna happen, me having a computer if all the grid is down is useless anyway. There have been several times 5000 volts came up, what’s that gonna feel like? An interstate full of people getting hit by an electric fence equivalent jolt will be interesting.

For me there are more important things to focus on, like things that don’t involve electricity at all compared to trying to make something EMP proof when it’s really a shot in the dark (literally) anyway.


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## Tirediron

on simple shielding, would several layers of sealed plastic containers work in place of a faraday cage


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## RedBeard

Your right lots of areas can't sustain a horse but lots of areas can. Over 9 million horses in the usa. Not including canada or mexico. They breed them every day. I would think once we resort to the shtf situation people would breed them and sell them. As they have done for ever. Have we all forgotten that motor vehicles are but a tiny dot in the time line for humans? The horse used to be our life line. Shtf and you can have the loud easy to spot vehicle that is prone to breakdown and running out of fuel. Along with the need for a rd of some type. We have kept horses for centuries why is it so hard to believe we would do it again?


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## CrackbottomLouis

I would like to have an emp proof vehicle to get to a bol from my spot. If I lived at my bol I would be less concerned. Fuel wouldnt last forever but you could scavenge for quite a while. Especially diesel. There is a giant sealed tank on every big rig. You ever counted how many big rigs there are even on small highways at any given time? Its a lot. Diesel wouldnt go bad for quite a while in a sealed tank. Having transportation would greatly help getting set up in the beginning.

Horses are great. Im sure horses would be a thriving business after an emp if it actually takes out the grid. If not you can always eat them although I consider that a short sighted waste.

The great thing about prepping for an emp is that if you are prepared for that and a pandemic then you have a whole heck of a lot of bases covered. I dont know the science behind faraday cages but I sheild small stuff like my radios, nv, and a few other things in a solid aluminum box and layers of cardboard, aluminum foil, and (now after reading this thread) freezer ziplocks and trash bags. I store everything without batteries in it. About as best as I can do so Ill just hope for the best with small stuff. Down the road Ill get an older "emp proof" vehicle and store extra parts and spark plugs. Till I can do that Ill just make do with what I have and try my best to mitigate risks and think outside the box for solutions. 

I like the grounding chain idea. So much conflicting info on emp, hemp, etc I just have to do what I can and hope for the best. Would like an older ham with vacuum tubes along with that vehicle though.


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## LincTex

SheepdogPRS said:


> A Faraday gage works to ground high voltages from a point source. When the air and ground for miles is charged to 50000 volts a Faraday cage is worthless. Even if you had a sealed metal container it just becomes the first plate of a capacitor and what is insulated on the inside becomes the other side of the capacitor and receives the same voltage in reverse polarity. E1 shielding requires at least four layers of capacitance to protect the stuff inside.


Ummm...... not necessarily. You are neglecting to take into account "Skin Effect" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect

I work with a lot of military radar components operating over 50,000 volts (apparent), and I don't think four layers of capacitance is necessary at all, especially if there is a way to bleed off potential as it is rising.

In military equipment, "shielded is shielded", period. 
If a component is shielded, and the connectors are shielded ("Cannon plugs"), no concern is given to "capacitance between the outer shielding braid and the conductors within".


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## terri9630

RedBeard said:


> Your right lots of areas can't sustain a horse but lots of areas can. Over 9 million horses in the usa. Not including canada or mexico. They breed them every day. I would think once we resort to the shtf situation people would breed them and sell them. As they have done for ever. Have we all forgotten that motor vehicles are but a tiny dot in the time line for humans? The horse used to be our life line. Shtf and you can have the loud easy to spot vehicle that is prone to breakdown and running out of fuel. Along with the need for a rd of some type. We have kept horses for centuries why is it so hard to believe we would do it again?


It's not hard to believe in areas that can sustain them in a fairly contained space. The problem would be, how many can wait for a breeding/pregnancy/growing up to be able to make use of the horses. How many have the equipment and skills to effectively use the horse to survive. How many can keep the horses fed with out bales of hay and bags of feed.


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## LincTex

RedBeard said:


> Your not wrong but in the country there is no shortage of horses either...


Those untrained "hay-burners" won't be useful for growing food, and aren't very bullet-proof, either.



RedBeard said:


> Your right lots of areas can't sustain a horse but lots of areas can. Over 9 million horses in the usa. I would think once we resort to the shtf situation people would breed them and sell them. As they have done for ever.


"Having a horse" does not equal "having a useful horse". Many are just decorations.



terri9630 said:


> The problem would be, how many can wait for a breeding/pregnancy/growing up to be able to make use of the horses. How many have the equipment and skills to effectively use the horse to survive. How many can keep the horses fed with out bales of hay and bags of feed.


CORRECT. A saddle broke horse might be useful as "limited transportation" but can't pull a plow or a hay mower. Especially arabian and a lot of quarter-horse crosses. There are NOT enoigh qualified people to go around and make them all useful, either - - in a timely fashion. Yes, it can be done with TIME but if people are trying to sniper you so they can have horse steaks for dinner tonight, you won't have time to break a horse to pull a plow - - or even build a plow that a horse can pull.


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## LincTex

SheepdogPRS said:


> The E1 pulse is 50000 volts per meter


That's Per SQUARE meter.

So, an area of about 10cm x 10cm (about 4" x 4" = 16 square inches) is only 0.0103226 square meters. 
(4x4 is actually 103cm², but it's close enough to 100. 100cm² = .01m²)

50,000 volts over a square meter is only ~500-516 volts over such a small square. The shielding requirements for 500 volts are very, very, very, very, very small.

A 10cm x 10cm (4" x 4") sealed metal box can EASILY hold spare diodes, a voltage regulator, and elec ign module to protect against 500 volts.


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## Trailblazer68

And you believe that you can protect those horses from raider? Because as sure as horses shit there will people trying to take them. Horses require real estate. Thats just the way it is. More space means more to defend. You may be confident in your ability to use a horse but what happens when the golden horde comes up your road to thata farm and decides they want those horses more than you? Can yoy defend that entire plot from hundreds of massed people? A single car is easier to handle than a living animal. Sure they can break down but then its not exactly uncommon for a horse to go lame. Can you shoe your own horses? Most cant. What happens then? Cars will be everywhere. If you pick the right model spare parts will be abundant and easily scavenged. For example the chevy 350. Its been made since what the 60s? And basically remained unchanged until the mid 90s. It was put in nearly every gm vehicle at some point. And in a lot of custom builds as well. They were in everything from a malibu to small industrial cranes. They ran on gas or propane as a factory design.

When a horse goes lame its no longer useful as a beast of burden. If i blow a tire i can simply replace the tire. Same goes for most any failure on a car. Amother benefit of the gm 350 is its insane reliability if not stupidly abused. Horses are fine and dandy if YOU have the option. But i think youve failed to fully grasp the type of horses most folks have vs work horses. The maintenance involved the feed the waste the space necessary. I can store multiple vehicles including spare parts up to and including engines and transmissions in a single 2 car garage. You cant do that with a horse.

Its perfectly fine for you to rely on those horses but dont try and force others to rely on something they cant attain now. Because if you do guess whos coming to see your sisters farm immediately after an event? Hordes of people that think horses are the only option left. And chances are youll be killed for them.

Animals have advantages but so do mechanical means. There's a reason the horse was all but replaced.


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## RedBeard

You can say all that same crap about rigs. Just because people can't train them isn't my problem. In fact i don't care if they can. Over 4 million people can so we will have the upper hand. They are easy to train if you know what your doing. A horse can survive just about anywhere. In fact there are wild populations in the desert. And if they land is managed right you don't need that much space. We had 18 of them. I trained my first horse Cody when i was 12. You guys do know that before the car about every family had a horse right? Centuries of humans and horses and you people think it impossible and more likely cars will be better during the shtf. Get back to your roots because if the shtf does happen your fuel will only last so long along with your engine oil. And if you think the lazy American is going to steal my horse over your rig, haha only if they are hungry enough and then they are stealing your rig next.


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## RedBeard

Look i jumped track on the thread. Sorry, but to depend on something that will not last long without fuel and parts in a situation that fuel and parts will stop being made is just crazy to me. So build that blazer, but atleast give it 10 inches of lift and 38s so it can make it to where you need to go..


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## Trailblazer68

You dont 38s and 10 inches of lift. A stock blazer with goid rubber will go 90% of places youll ever need to go. 

And again im not denying the value of horses. Im stating the impracticality of them for most folks. Even with proper management you still need more property than with a car. Even for a single horse. You have 4million horse owners? Theres over 300million people in this country. Not all of them are gonna die in the first few months. Many will but nit enough to ignore. And when the food runs out in the cities theyll migrate in vast hordes to the country. Farms in particular. To think youre less likely to be attacked for horses than for a car is ignorance at its finest. Horses will almost certainly be the lomg term means to bridge the gap between when most fuels run out and when we start rebuilding the infrastructure to create more. However you need to bridge the gap in time it is going to take to breed more horses. Thats a couple years at the fastest. You cant have every single mare pregnant. It takes time to heal before you can breed them again as well without ridking losing the mares. But a couple years is a long time. You still need to till land. To have transport. To haul heavy loads. Telling people to just "get a horse" isnt that simple. Your family had horses. They already had the land and materials on hand to support them. How am i to support a horse even in a mid sized town? With less than a single acre of property that i maybe rent and most of that taken up by the house itself?


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## RedBeard

What mad max fantasy world are you preparing for? I think the debate we are having is not horse vs car, it's city folk vs country folk. You know what will change for the Amish? Nothing! Point being is if we do go all mad max, horse, car, dog for that matter will all have to be protected. Personally i rather work a little harder to keep a horse that can move almost unnoticed around the country side instead of a rig that in my eyes is a gaint easy to spot target.


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## Trailblazer68

Everything will change for the Amish. The second a group of folks with guns decide they want their shit. Most amish dont have any firearms. What few do have guns mostly have shotguns and bolt action rifles. No match for a group full of semis. 

You totally missed my point. One small garage is easy to defend. One small car is easy to defend. A large plot is not. Not without more hands. Likely more than youd care to admit. 

Also as long as your rig doesn't have a 10in lift and a loud ass exhaust its not hard to go unnoticed. I dont recommend camo or bright color paint either as both will draw attention. 

I have zero intention of being a mad max fan boy. My vehicle has very minimal noticeable protection. A cb antenna and a small brush guard is all youll see. Theres much more to it than that. However being as mine is a 93 its new enough that should i need to hide it i can get away with simply shutting it down and moving to cover. It can sit in plain view and noone would be the wiser because its typically old enough to survive an emp that takes out all electronics. However eith a couple quick swaps under the hood suddenly it is a viable vehicle again. There will be no scrap iron plow or armored windows involved. In fact ill be adding more exhaust muffling to quiet the engine even further. It wont be as quiet as a horse but close enough. 

Youre position is that horses are the beat all end all for this situation. And that need not be the case


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## RedBeard

Oh i see the difference now. Your a lone wolf type. No no i totally know how much work it is and how much help it entails. I'm part of a large group. We plan to stand our ground and setup shop. Basically a whole town. Things (like everywhere) are a little different out here in the woods. Defense isn't going to be a problem as long as we are not invaded by another country. Everyone always says wait till they come from the cities.... Let them come. We will have food growing already and will teach them to provide for themselves and the group. And if they need to steal or try and kill us then they become worm food. If you think country folk aren't ready for a fight and won't prevail over city folk then your crazy. We are more dangerous, especially on our own turf. Not much will change for us out here just how we do it. I hate community and people but when the shtf my plan is not to defend what is mine all mine, its to defend my community so everyone and their stuff is safe. For an example the recent story in Texas where a plumber stopped a mad man....


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## terri9630

Yes there are lots of wild horses in the desert. The difference is they roam thousands of acres to find enough water and graze. A confined horse can't do that which means it will have to be provided by mechanical means which won't be available. Even if there is a currently producing field there isn't enough surface water or rain water out here to keep it alive. The avg well here is 250ft deep, that means fields will have to be near the river (and still need a way to irrigate) where all the people in the deserts will end up looking for water.


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## SheepdogPRS

"Skin effect" is valid with alternating current, not so much with a single cycle. The E1 pulse is a single cycle. The voltage is 50000 volts per meter of air. The electrons flow through the air at close to the speed of light. Since the "connection point" of the E1 pulse is the entire sheet of metal the "skin effect" only operates on the different layers separated by insulation.

Let me put this another way. Your 60Hz 120VAC power will go through a 600 volt capacitor like there is nothing there. The capacitor is two pieces of metal with an insulator rated at 600 volts. The only effect the capacitor has is that it changes the phase between the voltage and amperage by 90 degrees. Running that power through an inductor puts it back in phase. You re trying to protect a device that has a junction region that is rated for 3 to 5 volts and a reverse voltage of about 200 volts maximum with a very slow rise time (several milliseconds) compared to the 1/2 nanosecond rise time of the 50000V E1 pulse. 

I am not here to convince anyone of anything. I am providing information to those who want a reliable and cheap way to protect their electronics from the E1 pulse of an HEMP and to help explain why it works. There are all kinds of mythical information on the web that attempts to use microwave and radio technology to solve the problem when it is a completely different problem.


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## SheepdogPRS

Horses are a good answer to transportation and a better answer to plowing fields and work to keep yourself fed. I don't have any right now but I might in the future. They do need food through the winter and a place to graze all year. The waste products are good for fuel and fertilizer. I like Appaloosas and my brother prefers Morgans but both breeds have their strong and weak points.


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## Trailblazer68

Sigh no it has nothing to do with being a lone wolf. Or city against country. Im not and never have said that horses werent a viable option. I said they arent the only option. Nor should they be.

Your making the same mistake most people make. Underestimating the mob and over estimating yourself. If you think your group, say you have 150 folks. I doubt it but say you do. Do you really believe you can hold off against thousands? And thats likely only going to be the first wave. Unless you have your properties setup like a fort within a week youre not only going to very likely be out gunned but severly outnumbered. On the order of hundreds to 1 odds. Im not saying this to be a dick im being realistic. There will be groups that weather the storm. But they will be armed camps. And if you seriously believe that horses are all youll need as far as vehicles for transport and work you are severly limiting yourself and your group flexibility is key in such a serious grid down situation. Dont limit yourself because your ego was bruised by some random guy that disagreed with your poorly thought out plan. For christs sake man at least look into a vintage tractor or 2 for your fields


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## RedBeard

SheepdogPRS said:


> Horses are a good answer to transportation and a better answer to plowing fields and work to keep yourself fed. I don't have any right now but I might in the future. They do need food through the winter and a place to graze all year. The waste products are good for fuel and fertilizer. I like Appaloosas and my brother prefers Morgans but both breeds have their strong and weak points.


Im a quarter horse man myself but having worked fjords before i would seek out a team if i could. An incredible little sure footed pony that is very powerful. Although i do love those appaloosas!


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## SheepdogPRS

Trailblazer,
What are you going to use for oil and gas? In a grid down situation there won't be any of either available.


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## RedBeard

No bruised ego here. I have no doubt ill be fine. Guess you would have to live here to understand. Good luck with the rig, hope it works out for ya.


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## terri9630

SheepdogPRS said:


> Trailblazer,
> What are you going to use for oil and gas? In a grid down situation there won't be any of either available.


Oil will be easy. There 5 to 12 quarts sitting in every vehicle out there. Gas will take some scrounging but if all the new cars die in an EMP they will have gas in the tanks. For a while at least.


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## SheepdogPRS

Terri,
I think there is likely to be more looters and ambushers than cars with gas in the tank.:curious:


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## terri9630

SheepdogPRS said:


> Terri,
> I think there is likely to be more looters and ambushers than cars with gas in the tank.:curious:


Eventually. I don't plan on using cars aside to get home. The size garden required to feed my family can be hand turned, (we already survive off of just what we grow so yes, I know what size we require) boar goats are desert dwellers and can survive on what we have as long as we don't over stock though the dairy goats will require more. grazing.


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## RedBeard

terri9630 said:


> Eventually. I don't plan on using cars aside to get home. The size garden required to feed my family can be hand turned, (we already survive off of just what we grow so yes, I know what size we require) boar goats are desert dwellers and can survive on what we have as long as we don't over stock though the dairy goats will require more. grazing.


Mmmm goat meat! So good and so good for you!


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## Trailblazer68

Sigh.... Again im jot saying its city vs country. Im telling you that the sheer masses coming from the cities are going to be extremely hard to deal with. Even for groups. Im also saying that being inflexible is a recipe for disaster. If your land is on any sort of main roadway youll be one of the first to get hit by the masses fleeing the cities. This isnt about being rambo. Its facts. A dozen well armed people simply cant hold off thousands without terain advantages and massive preparation in the way defenses. Im not talking fences. Im talking trip wire pipe bombs and mines and pit traps. Most farms are set on fairly open rolling hill country. I live in pa. We are nithing but forest and mountain. But like open country it has benefits and disadvantages... 1: in the open areas you can see threats coming but they can see you to. 2: in wooded country your plot is harder to spot off the main roads but its harder to see incoming threats. Down south you have a longer growing season but its warmer and people will flee in that direction to avoid the severe cold and snow up north. The northern areas will empty out in the cold months but you lose time for farming. You also need to set it huge stocks of fuel for fires to keep warm. The only ones in the country that be unaffected by a serious shtf situation will be the ones aleeady living off the grid in Alaska and the like. Some of the southern bayou boys maybe. 

Dont fool yourself. You sure dont sound half as prepared as you think you are. 

And dont assume im a lone wolf bevause i dont agree with your view of how things should go. You have no idea what my setup or plans are. Making assumtions like that is likely to bite your ass and hard when the time comes.


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## RedBeard

Yes i assumed too, you literally have zero clue as to my preparedness and my situation. I live off the land now. I've been farming in the great north for over 35 years with minimal machinery. I don't even own a tractor. When i buy new seeds it is to acquire a new vegetable, my garden gets planted with my own seeds. I don't depend on society now. You can say what you want about my plans and what we are capable of but really it is all pure speculation, good luck with that. Nh, vt, maine, although similar to pa, also very different and that goes for the people too.


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## RedBeard

I called you a lone wolf because most preppers are preparing for themselves. My plans include the common goal of the people in my area.


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## LastOutlaw

RedBeard said:


> Im a quarter horse man myself but having worked fjords before i would seek out a team if i could. An incredible little sure footed pony that is very powerful. Although i do love those appaloosas!


I have a horse for you! Spanish Mustang came from Blackjack mountain herds in Oklahoma. The same herds as the Hidalgo story horse.


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## RedBeard

LastOutlaw said:


> View attachment 21465
> 
> 
> I have a horse for you! Spanish Mustang came from Blackjack mountain herds in Oklahoma. The same herds as the Hidalgo story horse.


That's a neat little horse. Like to hook it to a sled and see what it can do! Looks like it has some power!


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## LincTex

None y'all should be forgetting the "transition time".

Motor oil lasts 10,000 miles easily easily easily, and alcohol fuels and "wood gas" will keep a lot of engines going for a long time. If you can, use them! (sparingly)

Even SOME good, trained horses will get killed after a huge SHTF event. You can't depend on current breeding stock today if a major event happens tomorrow. Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

I think it is safe to say ANYONE with "extra capabilities" (i.e., land, horses, tractors, etc etc) will be a target at SOME point after a major SHTF. 

It may not be just one fight either........ you may have a major fight every 3-5 weeks, who knows. If you live in Chesuncook, Maine you'll have fewer battles, but at some point even then there may be times when you have to defend yourself a against a group larger than yours.


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## RedBeard

Found this yesterday, seems appropriate.


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