# Education?



## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

Let me preface this by saying that I do not intend to offend anyone.

In reading through some of the threads on here (and elsewhere on the internet), I am struck by the blatant lack of familiarity with basic grammar and spelling. This caused me to wonder: Should things "go south" on a large scale, how prepared is everyone to maintain some level of education for their families/groups? 

Think of the fall of Rome and all of the learning that was lost. Are we prepared to be thrust into an intellectual Dark Ages again? Just some food for thought; perhaps add a few of Plato's and Shakespeare's works to your libraries.


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## Frugal_Farmers (Dec 13, 2010)

When TSHTF, I'll take the wisdom of the uneducated hillbillies around me any day of the week over someone with a formal education.

I have learned all kinds of things from these folks.

I guess it boils down to where you place formal education on the survival scale.

It's kind of funny because I used to think these folks were just dumb a$$ hillbillies, but now I have the wisdom to know, they have first hand experiences that could never be taught in higher education learning environments.


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## power (May 7, 2011)

A high priced degree and correct spelling will be down on the bottom of the list when people are trying to keep from starving to death.
I am with FF on this. Would much rather have a poor uneducated farmer with me if SHTF than someone with several degrees from major colleges.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

It would be fine by me if we did lose all those grammar rules!  I am formally educated, it doesn't make me smarter than anyone else it just allows me to do my job legally. My hubby is way smarter than me with no post high school schooling & in a SHTF situation I would much rather have to get by with the information in his head than what's in mine in most instances. 

I have homeschooled K-12, one graduated & the other is a junior. I'm a bookaholic, mainly nonfiction & classics. I sure wouldn't want to homeschool K-12 with only the materials I have, but I could make do.


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

tsrwivey said:


> I have homeschooled K-12, one graduated & the other is a junior. I'm a bookaholic, mainly nonfiction & classics. I sure wouldn't want to homeschool K-12 with only the materials I have, but I could make do.


Can you say the same for the next generation & the next & the next tho? I think that's more what the OP is asking as opposed to a "who's smarter?" or a "vs" scenario.

Civilization didn't disappear overnight, it gradually degenerated, and in many instances had a lot of intentional help in the process (ie book burning, raiding, redacting/censoring)


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## stayingthegame (Mar 22, 2011)

there is a difference between book smarts and common sense. we will need both when the shtf comes. common sense will solve everyday problems, but book learning will be needed to reset and rebuild our world. I agree that the hilbillys and country folks ways will be the best for us in the immediate future, next will come math and science, reading and writing. somewhere, there after will come Plato and his friends.


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

stayingthegame said:


> I agree that the hilbillys and country folks ways will be the best for us in the immediate future, next will come math and science, reading and writing. somewhere, there after will come Plato and his friends.


as a "hillbilly" I'd like to say "gawrsall-fishstix, sum uv us hav sum buk-larnin' "   

P.S. have fun trying to survive at even the 'frontiersman' level without some STEM (Science Technology Engineering Math) skills... if you think there's anything 'simple' about a 'simple blacksmith' or 'basic carpentry'... :dunno:



> this is it... this is the day my math teacher warned me about... when Algebra was going to save my life


Val Kilmer in Mission to Mars


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## Frugal_Farmers (Dec 13, 2010)

power said:


> A high priced degree and correct spelling will be down on the bottom of the list when people are trying to keep from starving to death.
> I am with FF on this. Would much rather have a poor uneducated farmer with me if SHTF than someone with several degrees from major colleges.


Hey, Hey, Hey--who are you calling a poor, uneducated farmer?


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## Frugal_Farmers (Dec 13, 2010)

OK, so let me revert back to the OP.

In considering life post-SHTF, I would have to say that teaching my children and grandchildren basic life skills is still more important than any higher education degree. Take the european model, trade schools exist because not everyone will go to University. We still need "the butcher, the baker, and the candlestick maker".

When your septic sytem backs up and you need someone to take care of it. That uneducated "turd sucker" becomes the most important person in your life.

I have literally been around the world and been to plenty of 3rd world countries. Perhaps those places that had the greatest impact on me were those people who living the good life void of all those material possesions that enslave people to careers they hate.

Ask yourself what our higher education sytems are teaching our youth today. Medical schools are owned by big drug companies, business schools are teaching "maximizing profits" and we have created a society where greed wins out over taking care of your customers.

I would say that community homeschooling would be the way to go post-SHTF.


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## Jason (Jul 25, 2009)

Without learning history we are doomed to repeat it-to make the same dumb mistakes generation after generation. We need a written record of our accomplishments and failures, even afther TSHTF. We'll need math to figure out how far uphill a given ram pump can make the water go. We're not going to blindly blunder through trial and error-ashuman beings we are the most intelligent beings in the known universe and as such we are born to explore, and to record those explorations. 

I don't care about a formal education per se (and I do hold a bachelor's degree) in its own right after SHTF. What I do care about is that people remain willing to learn and that accepted spelling and math are taught. Does everyone need to excel at everything? No, of course not. I can spell well but I'm awful at math without a calculator. That gets back to us being basically pack animals who do better as a well rounded group than as individuals.

By teaching (and learning) how to spell, write, and solve math and science problems we will be able to climb back out of the 1800's if a solar flare/pandemic/whatever puts us there.

I don't look down on people wo can't spell well or have whatever weakness...lord knows I have plenty of weaknesses myself. But you're damn straight I'll do my best to make sure my boy has book smarts if he has no other way to get it. Rather than dividing between "dumb farmers" and "lawyer types" I think basic education is crucial to us all as a species and a society, and I really think that basic education will prevail after SHTF.


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

Some a the most book smart folk I know ain't got the sense ta pound sand in a rat hole.

Good common sense an knolwedge of things bein lost cause it ain't put inta a book are far more valuable. Walk inta the campin sectiona a walmart with a flint an steel an have one a them folk start a fire. Most ain't never seen one er if they have been on the boob tube, let alone be able ta use it. They won't know nothin much bout raisin food be it vegitables er meat, that comes outa the grocery section on tather side.

Lost a early knowledge bein lost do ta "modernization" an that be education what we may never get back. Yup, books got a place, lots ta be learned from em, but put that learnin ta use with experience an ya got it. A hillbilly, er a farmer use more mental thinkin in a day then lots a them scientific types an in a way what benefits a great many folk.

So, cause I write an talk funny, am I uneducated? Naw, I actually got two degree's, yeah they've helped over the years, but I prefer ta stay true ta my roots an practice the old ways. Been a rite many times that old information saved the day. Much a that information ain't real tecnical but is more valuable in my opinion. I teach anyone what wan't ta learn cause much a it be a dissappearin art.

In a total breakdown such as a pandemic similar ta the show after armageddon, a computer programmer ain't gonna be a much use ifin he er she don't have some other skill set. The world relies far to much on technology taday an the time may come when it becomes useless. Books er better cause they don't take batteries but need ta be the right books fer the job. 

Ok, I'm done cause this gettin to long winded! Education will always have a place, right next ta knowledge an experience.


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## Quills (Jun 14, 2011)

Reading skills and effective comprehension are imperative to learning things if you do not have someone to show you. Communication skills can save your life. 

I, too, am dismayed at the general lack of communication skills, reading, writing and comprehension, of today's youth. Apparently, it's more important that they reach adulthood with their ego intact than able to understand a list of simple directions. 

I have a degree, and I agree that it is simply a legality, I have learned most of my skills by DOING the work with people who have more experience than I, but there are parts of my job I simply could not do if I did not understand the basics of grammar, spelling, and effective communication and comprehension.

My DH has three degrees, all in the sciences. Who is smarter? Well, the jury is still out, but I tend to have much more common sense and problem solving abilities, and he has more pure, instinctive knowledge -- neither of those were attained through our degrees, but that "formal" education sure taught us how to utilize and apply our intelligence.

A good education doesn't teach you THINGS, it teaches you how to THINK. Because of this, we pulled our kids from public school early on, because they were simply being taught what would be on the government-mandated tests, and not how to utilize knowledge or how to gain new knowledge. We have educated them classically, and taught them along the guidelines of the trivium of learning which will allow them to continue to learn for the rest of their lives.

Education is not something that stops with the high school diploma, or the degree -- it is something that those things are supposed to give you the skills to pursue for the rest of your life. Unfortunately, government involvement and standardized testing, which send the message that the scores, not the learning, are what is important, rule the day. Remove that, and we'll get back to what education is all about: broadening our horizons, opening up our world view, and attaining the skills that allow us to continue to learn for the rest of our lives.


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## power (May 7, 2011)

Frugal_Farmers said:


> Hey, Hey, Hey--who are you calling a poor, uneducated farmer?


Sorry, didn't mean any disrespect. I was talking about poor uneducated farmers, not someone as skilled with words as you.

We are now discussing two separate things. The first thing was when everything went south, SHTF. Then we will need people with more hands on experience and common sense.

The second thing we are now discussing is the need for an education if S don't HTF. Education is a great thing. Helps in just about all steps in life.
I have two degrees and two trade school degrees. Never been without a job. They sure have helped me out all through my life. Made it possible to retire early.

We need both types. Can't make it very well if we have to choose one over the other. Each has their place.


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## Quills (Jun 14, 2011)

power said:


> We need both types. Can't make it very well if we have to choose one over the other. Each has their place.


Doesn't it make sense though, that we would need people who know how to learn? Learning is a skill in and of itself. Unfortunately, it's a skill that many no longer have access to, because they've been told that it doesn't matter if they spell "differently" than others, or don't use proper grammar and punctuation... proper grammar and punctuation can change the meaning of a sentence completely. If you can't decode the meaning, you can't learn what the sentence is trying to communicate.

Logic, pragmatic thinking skills, problem-solving, and rhetoric all used to be taught. Where are these in our education system now? Now we have "whole word" reading rather than phonics and learning vocabulary roots. We have "estimation" rather than learning the multiplication tables. We have made things like history and civics courses take a back seat to basketball and football programs, and we don't teach our children anything that is "hard" because the failure rate brings down the "percentages". We've told kids that it's okay to fail, and it's resulted in a populace which is too uneducated to support itself.

Perhaps if education requirements were a little more straightforward -- children MUST know how to read, write, do arithmetic, and can comprehend basic ideas from the written word in order to graduate high school, we'd have a population more able to learn new skills when required. Perhaps if it took more than having the tuition to get into institutes of higher education, we wouldn't have so many people out there with degrees, but no job skills.

Sorry, this is a bit of a soap-box for me. I believe that the dumbing-down of our society is an intentional thing, and I am concerned about what this means for our future. You want to talk feudalism? With no job skills, and no ability to GET them, where does that leave our "educated" masses?


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

Turtle said:


> Let me preface this by saying that I do not intend to offend anyone.
> 
> In reading through some of the threads on here (and elsewhere on the internet), I am struck by the blatant lack of familiarity with basic grammar and spelling. This caused me to wonder: Should things "go south" on a large scale, how prepared is everyone to maintain some level of education for their families/groups?
> 
> Think of the fall of Rome and all of the learning that was lost. Are we prepared to be thrust into an intellectual Dark Ages again? Just some food for thought; perhaps add a few of Plato's and Shakespeare's works to your libraries.


 I'm one who makes a lot of mistakes with grammar and spelling,partly because of typing keys that stick,no spell check that most use and just plain getting old.

Education is not always why peopel don't do well as evidenced by Einstein who was well educated had the same problems with grammar and spelling,google it'.

What you should be more concerned with is what is being taught in the schools now.

Not to speak of so many who have an education yet don't have enough common sense to benefit from it.

I took hort in college 20 yr.s ago.Lots of science.I was the oldest in my class and and my grades were above most of the young students there.Even though the lesbian professor hated me.


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

"From Cambridge University . 

O lny srmat poelpe can raed tihs. 
I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, t he olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rgh it pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! if you can raed tihs psas it on !!"


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## power (May 7, 2011)

Quills said:


> Doesn't it make sense though, that we would need people who know how to learn? Learning is a skill in and of itself. Unfortunately, it's a skill that many no longer have access to, because they've been told that it doesn't matter if they spell "differently" than others, or don't use proper grammar and punctuation... proper grammar and punctuation can change the meaning of a sentence completely. If you can't decode the meaning, you can't learn what the sentence is trying to communicate.
> 
> Logic, pragmatic thinking skills, problem-solving, and rhetoric all used to be taught. Where are these in our education system now? Now we have "whole word" reading rather than phonics and learning vocabulary roots. We have "estimation" rather than learning the multiplication tables. We have made things like history and civics courses take a back seat to basketball and football programs, and we don't teach our children anything that is "hard" because the failure rate brings down the "percentages". We've told kids that it's okay to fail, and it's resulted in a populace which is too uneducated to support itself.
> 
> ...


Most people can get the meaning of what a person is trying to explain. Maybe it would be better if a person listened to what the other person was saying instead of looking for mistakes in grammar and punctuation.

My grandfather never went to school, couldn't read, and could barely sign his own name. He raised 3 kids that didn't belong to him though and provided a good life for them. He owned his own business.
Kids should know the skill of learning before they ever start school. Learning does not begin when they start school.

I will agree with much you have said. Sports has become more important then basic schooling. We are the cause of that. We encouraged that when we decide to pass the kid who can't spell his name but is great on the football field.

When I lived in Texas we had an outstanding football player in our school. Got a scholarship to college and then went into the pros. He was in on a drug deal gone bad where a man was killed and he wasn't allowed to play football anymore. He came back to his home town and started looking for a job. He wasn't able to fill out a job application, barely could print his name.
He had a high school diploma and a college degree and could not write his name. He bought a shoeshine business but failed miserably as he couldn't keep records. The last I heard from him he worked as a jailer. His size was the deciding factor, that and the fact he was so dumb he would do whatever he was told to do without thinking.


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

Now for the other side of the coin.

Education is the building blocks of a civilized society.Our ancesters were educated and they founded the greatist nation on earth.Without higher education American never woudl have prospered and grew.

I agree we need to have good grammar and an education,what I don't understand is why most don't understand that principles,morals and values are just as important.


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## power (May 7, 2011)

Meerkat said:


> I'm one who makes a lot of mistakes with grammar and spelling,partly because of typing keys that stick,no spell check that most use and just plain getting old.
> 
> Education is not always why peopel don't do well as evidenced by Einstein who was well educated had the same problems with grammar and spelling,google it'.
> 
> ...


Meerkat, I don't have a problem understanding what you post, don't always agree with you but I don't have any trouble reading it. 
I would rather spend my time thinking about what a person is saying rather than looking for misspelled words and missing periods.


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## goshengirl (Dec 18, 2010)

I don't believe the OP was indicating that education is more important than experience, or even talking about higher education. I think he was asking if, in a post-SHTF scenario, are we prepared to educate our children/grandchildren in the absence of government education systems.(Please correct me if I'm wrong.) 

As a homeschooler, I prep for education as much as I prep for food storage, etc. We've had our own mini-SHTF situation economically, so I've planned ahead a number of years and stocked up on the minimum materials we'd need to educate my son, just in case something happens. 

I never thought about it for non-homeschoolers before, but it does merit consideration - if you have a young child or grandchild, do you have what you need to teach that child to read? How about high school history? (I firmly agree with Jason - if we don't learn history, we are doomed to repeat it.) 

It's not higher education, just basic education. We do need that.


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## Quills (Jun 14, 2011)

power said:


> Maybe it would be better if a person listened to what the other person was saying instead of looking for mistakes in grammar and punctuation.


Absolutely correct. But what if the knowledge required to do a job isn't available from a person that you can listen to, but instead, needs to be learned from a book? Additionally, language is more than the written word, it's understanding vocabulary, and word meanings -- much of that is attained through reading.

Additionally, if you cannot read and comprehend for yourself, you must TRUST the person teaching or guiding you. I'm, unfortunately, not the trusting sort 

My father has an 8th grade education. He had to leave school to help support his siblings during the Great Depression. He is probably the most educated, well-informed man I know. I am one of eight children, and Dad farmed and worked construction for most of his life -- no WAY could he afford to put us through university. He told us, though, that education was free to the man (or woman) who made the effort to learn how to learn. The degrees and paperwork are just licences that say that you are qualified to do what you say you can do -- nothing more. But being able to read and truly able to comprehend and apply what you are reading are IMPERATIVE to furthering your education beyond the pap that they dole out in our public education system.

I'm not saying that people can't DO things without a formal education, I'm saying that society as a whole won't believe that they can without that "licence". I value what I learn from people who "do" much more than what I learned in school, but we're not talking about schooling, we're talking about education, and today, they mean two very different things.

And I maintain that good communication skills that include reading, writing, vocabulary, grammar and punctuation, make that a lot easier.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

Turtle said:


> Let me preface this by saying that I do not intend to offend anyone.
> 
> In reading through some of the threads on here (and elsewhere on the internet), I am struck by the blatant lack of familiarity with basic grammar and spelling. This caused me to wonder: Should things "go south" on a large scale, how prepared is everyone to maintain some level of education for their families/groups?
> 
> Think of the fall of Rome and all of the learning that was lost. Are we prepared to be thrust into an intellectual Dark Ages again? Just some food for thought; perhaps add a few of Plato's and Shakespeare's works to your libraries.


I am a bookworm - with that being said, I do have ancient-texts in my library that include the classics from Shakespeare, technical books, novels, training manuals and DIY books. Give me a book over a movie any day because I like to use my imagination.

I am formally trained beyond high-school (computer programming) and OTJ trained (and certified) in computer IT (hardware, software, networking) as well as OTJ trained in CAD (Computer Aided Drafting). That doesn't mean that I am just a geek with tape holding the glasses together and no social skills.

I also enjoy wood-working, metal-working (welding, forging, etc), fixing vehicles --- all taught the old-fashioned-way - hands-on.

Personally, I feel that there is a need for both learning skills by hands-on and by books, but, to learn from books, you need to be able to read and understand what is in those books - formal education. Basic math, basic reading / writing and basic communication skills are needed by everyone.

I will do what I can to keep the basic skills alive by teaching what I can of the basics and will do what I can to keep advanced skills alive by sharing what I know.


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## efbjr (Oct 20, 2008)

*Psas it froawrd...*



*Andi said:


> "From Cambridge University .
> 
> O lny srmat poelpe can raed tihs.
> I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, t he olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rgh it pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! if you can raed tihs psas it on !!"


Oaky Adni ! Il"l psas it on!


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## power (May 7, 2011)

*Andi said:


> "From Cambridge University .
> 
> O lny srmat poelpe can raed tihs.
> I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, t he olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rgh it pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! if you can raed tihs psas it on !!"


No problem reading it. I am more of a speed reader anyway. I don't look at a single word. I look at groups of words. Most of the time there is only a word or two in a sentence that matters, the rest is just filler.


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## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

Turtle said:


> Let me preface this by saying that I do not intend to offend anyone.
> 
> In reading through some of the threads on here (and elsewhere on the internet), I am struck by the blatant lack of familiarity with basic grammar and spelling. This caused me to wonder: Should things "go south" on a large scale, how prepared is everyone to maintain some level of education for their families/groups?
> 
> Think of the fall of Rome and all of the learning that was lost. Are we prepared to be thrust into an intellectual Dark Ages again? Just some food for thought; perhaps add a few of Plato's and Shakespeare's works to your libraries.


1) will we care??:dunno:
2) some sites are getting old school books and storing:congrat:
3) I am an ex teacher and I hope I can barter for things using my skill:2thumb:
4) some of the misspellings are typing errors; or not proof reading before submitting; and some ARE grammatical errors ....like were for where????
I even noticed 'and' for 'an' a lot lately and that shouldn't be a typo??

EDIT: Now that I scanned and perused most posts, I can say this...my daddy had a 6th grade education and when he laid my blocks, framed my walls, etc...I NEVER in 15 years found one space out of plumb...that's hard to say about a house from ANY contractor---and he wasn't licensed..he was sure he would fail the test...


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

power said:


> Meerkat, I don't have a problem understanding what you post, don't always agree with you but I don't have any trouble reading it.
> I would rather spend my time thinking about what a person is saying rather than looking for misspelled words and missing periods.


 Thanks Power,I know I can be aggrevating and lazy with my words at times.but I'm slow to type.And been too busy with grandkids for past 25 years.Then setting up farming for 10 so you forget how to speak,spell and communicate.:dunno:


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

As I stated at the very beginning, I did not begin this thread with the intention of offending anyone. Perhaps I should also have mentioned that my intention was not to rate the superiority of a classical education over that of real-world trade skills.

I simply meant to say that there is great value in preserving a basic level of literacy, and for those so inclined, that basic level of literacy could lead to an appreciation of those classical works which have elevated the simple conveyance of ideas into an art form.

In the same way that it is a tragedy how our society has lost many of the simple skills which our forefathers took for granted, it would also be a tragedy if future generations were deprived of the opportunity to experience great literature, works of philosophy, or to understand the history of the people from whence they came. Recall, if you will, the sense of discovery and accomplishment you felt the first time that you heated a piece of steel to a working temperature on your own, or the first batch of bread which came out of the oven perfectly risen, or the first time you managed to join two pieces of wood seamlessly, or the first time you fired a round that you had reloaded yourself... those moments also exist for children (and adults who enjoy reading and learning) who grasp a philosophical concept for the first time, or when they bridge the centuries and discover their heritage, or see the beauty in a poem.

I would never go so far as to say that intellectual pursuits are more important to survival than those skills that allow us live off of the land. However, I would put forward the idea that merely surviving is not truly living. There is more to life than not starving or having a roof over your head. Without culture, we are little better than animals.


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

Agreed. Many many things ta be learned from books. An even hillbillies habe culture, ya hear it in the music. The lives a aboriganals can be seen in there cave paintins an in there music as well, be how they pass on there knowledge.

Technology has it's place, but sometimes it causes a loss a technology to. The best example I can give ya be in basic math. Folks taday can't do nothin without a calculator! I can do it in my head faster an more accurate then them fellers at work usin the calculator on there phone!


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

OldCootHillbilly said:


> Agreed. Many many things ta be learned from books. An even hillbillies habe culture, ya hear it in the music. The lives a aboriganals can be seen in there cave paintins an in there music as well, be how they pass on there knowledge.
> 
> Technology has it's place, but sometimes it causes a loss a technology to. The best example I can give ya be in basic math. Folks taday can't do nothin without a calculator! I can do it in my head faster an more accurate then them fellers at work usin the calculator on there phone!


This is so true. :melikey:


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## Aemilia (May 27, 2010)

*Don't forget penmanship ....*

I think a basic education is important for rebuilding society. At least the ability to read, write well (which includes clarity & persuasiveness as much as grammar or spelling) and do math. I homeschool my kids, and I think history would be taught as stories told or books read - real books, no textbooks with end of the chapter questions. Science would be nature study itself for a long time - just growing a garden or butchering a deer will provide plenty to learn. But I think only the 3Rs would be seat work.

I have enough printed material to do reading, spelling, writing and math to algebra. I have enough on the computer to be comfortable with K-8th, excluding upper level science. I have a small collection of good books, random things from Homer to Shakespeare to Sherlock Holmes to nature handbooks to animal husbandry to practical things like woodworking and automobiles. (Now for the time to READ them )

Anyway, I'd recommend An Old Fashioned Education - free and very complete for all grades. And if you want more reading try Ambleside Online - they list a lot of downloadable / printable books.

What I find funny is what will people do when they have to hand-write things? Handwriting is hardly taught any more, it might be they have perfect grammar, but if you can't read it what good does it do?


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## Doomskull (Mar 25, 2011)

I actually have a huge selection of books that I am going to have to pick through when SHTF. I have 3 younger children and am more than prepared to educate them myself. Back in the day knowledge was passed down through stories and song. All knowledge can be passed in such a manner if need be. We just have to be creative and put it in a format the children can remember if books are not available. The most valuable things I've learned have been word-of-mouth from my grandfather, uncles and so forth. We might have to make do with that until things even out somewhat then the collection of texts can commence. "Book of Eli" anyone... It's a good question though.


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## CulexPipiens (Nov 17, 2010)

Reading, Writing and Arithmetic. The basics will still be useful. If you can read (and understand) something you can learn from it. If you can write you can record potentially vital and life saving information. If you can do math you can plan properly. 

I got a 16' x 4' raised bed. How many feet of board do I need to go around it? Gold is 1500 an ounce. What is a 1/10th ounce krugerand worth? Buckets of wheat are being bartered at a "value" of $25 each. How many can I get with my 1/10th ounce krugerand? Did the guy I just traded with try to rip me off or was his offer fair?

Of course passed down knowledge and hands on experience will be just as useful. A healthy balance of passed on, book learning of the basics and plain old hands on will serve just about everyone in a long term bad situation.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Books*

I have some college but do not have a degree.

I have a "Master HVAC license", a" Master Electrician's License", Five "Code Welding certifications" and was an "architectural representative" for a major firm in KY. I hold a KY PI license and have worked as a carpenter, Tool Maker and plumbers asst. I was a licensed "Supervisor of Asbestos Abatement" I was the HVAC engineer for a major Health Care Corp for 20 years.

I was a Deputy Sheriff and had all the necessary training associated with the position. I owned and operated a P I company specializing in asset recovery for about 30 lenders. I personally conducted over 3600 involuntary Repossessions. I always had a job and a business or two going at the same time. Now I am retired. I play golf, fish a little and hunt a little. I read at least two books a week.

The best education you can get is from experience and reading. Never stop learning. I never learned anything I did not use at some point in life.


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## stayingthegame (Mar 22, 2011)

THERE IS NOT A MAN I HAVE MET AND NOT COME AWAY THE WISER FOR HAVING KNOWN HIM. 
the dumbest people are the ones who THINK they know it all. when you stop learning thats when you start getting dumber. as long as you are willing to learn from some one you will be wise. wish i could remember who said that.


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## PamsPride (Dec 21, 2010)

I will have to blame my kids for my lack of grammar! They are always distracting me when I am typing! So who knows what is going to end up written in the post!!


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

PamsPride said:


> I will have to blame my kids for my lack of grammar! They are always distracting me when I am typing! So who knows what is going to end up written in the post!!


 LOL,I have to blame age and a dog that stands in-between tv and keyboard.By the time I yell at her to move,I've lost my train of thought.or spouse talks to me whole time I'm typing.


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

Turtle said:


> Let me preface this by saying that I do not intend to offend anyone.
> 
> In reading through some of the threads on here (and elsewhere on the internet), I am struck by the blatant lack of familiarity with basic grammar and spelling. This caused me to wonder: Should things "go south" on a large scale, how prepared is everyone to maintain some level of education for their families/groups?
> 
> Think of the fall of Rome and all of the learning that was lost. Are we prepared to be thrust into an intellectual Dark Ages again? Just some food for thought; perhaps add a few of Plato's and Shakespeare's works to your libraries.


 I understand your concerns with those of us who don't speak and spell correctly.

'My Fair Lady'an old classic movie is about this subject.A great movie with ,Rex Harrison and Audrey Hepburn.It explains the importance of proper language and speech.I suppose we should all try to be more presentable.


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

Haha! "My Fair Lady" is a fine film, indeed! The classics are always the best, and that particular film is especially amusing to me, as the Cockney accent which Hepburn affects in that movie is the linguistic ancestor of the local Baltimore "Hon" accent. It's all the more amusing when it can be put into a local "real-world" context.


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

Turtle said:


> Haha! "My Fair Lady" is a fine film, indeed! The classics are always the best, and that particular film is especially amusing to me, as the Cockney accent which Hepburn affects in that movie is the linguistic ancestor of the local Baltimore "Hon" accent. It's all the more amusing when it can be put into a local "real-world" context.


 It also gets the point across without offending anyone,or was 'offending' the correct word?:scratch


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

Turtle said:


> Haha! "My Fair Lady" is a fine film, indeed! The classics are always the best, and that particular film is especially amusing to me, as the Cockney accent which Hepburn affects in that movie is the linguistic ancestor of the local Baltimore "Hon" accent. It's all the more amusing when it can be put into a local "real-world" context.


 Anyway,I'm glad you brought this subject up.it helps me to realize how much I needed to hear it.:wave:


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

*Andi said:


> "From Cambridge University .
> 
> O lny srmat poelpe can raed tihs.
> I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, t he olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rgh it pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! if you can raed tihs psas it on !!"


you do realize that those of us (like me) with dyslexia didn't get this joke...


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

Turtle said:


> Let me preface this by saying that I do not intend to offend anyone.
> 
> In reading through some of the threads on here (and elsewhere on the internet), I am struck by the blatant lack of familiarity with basic grammar and spelling. This caused me to wonder: Should things "go south" on a large scale, how prepared is everyone to maintain some level of education for their families/groups?
> 
> Think of the fall of Rome and all of the learning that was lost. Are we prepared to be thrust into an intellectual Dark Ages again? Just some food for thought; perhaps add a few of Plato's and Shakespeare's works to your libraries.


I'm sure people will be concerned about education for their children once they're no longer worried about basic survival.

You could also look at it another way: why are so few "educated" people prepping? Is it because they were indoctrinated with liberalism when they were in college?


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

BillS said:


> I'm sure people will be concerned about education for their children once they're no longer worried about basic survival.
> 
> You could also look at it another way: why are so few "educated" people prepping? Is it because they were indoctrinated with liberalism when they were in college?


Quite right. I never meant to imply that the ability to recite sonnets would aid one's survival abilities, only to bring up the point that it is something to consider. Had it not been for remote outposts of monks who preserved manuscripts, the world would have lost a lot more with the fall of Roman civilization. Just something to consider. If we do not preserve the basics of our language and fundamentals of writing, within two generations people from New England would be unable to converse with someone from the Midwest.

I believe there is a definite correlation between the lliberal politcal leanings and the liberal mindset of, "Someone else will take care of me, I don't have to do it myself."


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

The_Blob said:


> you do realize that those of us (like me) with dyslexia didn't get this joke...


What joke ...

If the story about the research is true, it was just that research into reading habits.

I posted the said results from Cambridge University.

And if I cause displeasure, anger, resentment, or wounded feelings to people with dyslexia ...

I"M SORRY ...


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## OrangePekoe (Jul 9, 2011)

I would say more people now read and are educated because of the internet and mobile devices. When auto correct typing gets to internet forums and comments maybe we will all sound like Shakespeare.


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

University of Edinburgh 2003?


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## Jason (Jul 25, 2009)

The fact of the matter is we are pack animals and different people are good at different things. Some people are more predispositioned for book learning and some people can't read or write worth a darn but can just instinctually fix things. While we on this forum are prepping to go it alone if need be, the forum is called Prepared SOCIETY. Society is the people word for herd, flock, whatever. 

I'm not trying to spark up a debate out MAG groups or going it alone or building Utopia in the desert; I'm just saying that no one person is expert at everything and we got to the top of the food chain because we work together, on the whole. I'm as anti social as they come-I'd rather hang out with a few close friends than go out into the crowded masses any day, but I'd also hate to have to live (pre or post SHTF) truly alone with just my family. 

Personally, I'm kind of in the middle of the road-for example when the hydraulic brakes on our 1966 Farmall tractor started seizing up, I'd have had no idea how to fix them without reading the manual. But by reading what to do, then making slight adjustments and using trial and error, my operational experience with the tractor (literally all of my life) told me when I got it right.

There's no right or wrong answer here but it does make for a really interesting conversation and has given me a lot to think about.


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## stayingthegame (Mar 22, 2011)

we need to balance all phases of our lives. knowing how to read a Shakespeare sonnet, won't fix a tractor, but might keep the soul warm on long nights. beside you need to know how to read all the know-how stuff we preppers tend to find.


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## Jason (Jul 25, 2009)

@Stayingthegame-bingo!


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## kejmack (May 17, 2011)

I agree with the original poster. There is an appalling lack of the basics of English grammar and spelling on this site, however, it isn't just this forum. I belong two equine forums and it is the same situation there. 

For those of you making fun, the ability to master a language also indicates your ability to master reason and thought. People who are thoughful and reasoned are a lot easier to co-exist with if the SHTF. A sonnet can't fix the tractor, but they can read the manual and learn to do it.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Writeing a letter*

The young people are losing the ability to write a letter . I blame text messaging. Go into grandpa's attic and read some of the letters sent during WWII and you will see what I am talking about. The average teen cannot express their self with pen and paper because they have never had to. They have always been able to pick up a phone or text using that God awful abbreviated half sentence communication. What are they going to do when it is no longer available ?


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## Quills (Jun 14, 2011)

Jason said:


> Personally, I'm kind of in the middle of the road-for example when the hydraulic brakes on our 1966 Farmall tractor started seizing up, I'd have had no idea how to fix them without reading the manual. But by reading what to do, then making slight adjustments and using trial and error, my operational experience with the tractor (literally all of my life) told me when I got it right.


Exactly, Jason, but imagine that you were brought up in an environment were "book learning" -- or reading at all -- wasn't encouraged, and your survival was dependent on, not only being ABLE to read that manual, but being able to comprehend and apply what you were reading.

That's the situation with a lot of people in our world today. They can read, they have the mechanics of it down, but they were never taught how to properly comprehend what they had read. Comprehension doesn't matter when all you're doing is teaching rote information to be regurgitated on a test. University is a hard lesson for a lot of high school graduates -- because in university, studying is much more independent and applied, often at odds with the way the student has learned up until that point, and they've not been taught to teach themselves, or gain information for themselves, only what is spoon-fed to them.

First day of university, a professor told the room to look at the person to our left, then at the person to our right. When he had our attention again, he told us that, of the three of us, one would be gone from the program by the end of the first year, and another would be gone by the end of second year; only one would survive to have a shot at graduating, and which one did we want to be? It was quite a lesson, and it's stuck with me for well over twenty years, now. It's one of the reasons why I homeschool my kids, because I want them going into that situation with the tools for independent learning that I didn't have. Ramping up over that first year was a nightmare, and one that could have been avoided if I'd been taught how to gain knowledge when I needed it, rather than taught facts to be spat out for a test when required.

Survival may depend on our ability to read, comprehend, and apply knowledge with no teacher in the room. We must be our own teachers to be truly independent, and proper reading and communication skills are absolutely necessary for that.


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

BillM said:


> The young people are losing the ability to write a letter . I blame text messaging. Go into grandpa's attic and read some of the letters sent during WWII and you will see what I am talking about. The average teen cannot express their self with pen and paper because they have never had to. They have always been able to pick up a phone or text using that God awful abbreviated half sentence communication. What are they going to do when it is no longer available ?


I agree completely. I am a very old-fashioned sort of fellow, and I blame technology for a lot of the faults in our society. This is not to say that I find technology to be inherently evil, but I believe that it has made society lazy.

I was reading a 13th century manuscript several days ago, a written account of a bishop's travels to the churches in his district. What struck me the most was the wit displayed by the author, who was able to convey humor without resorting to, "LMAO! LOL! ROFL!" Likewise, read Chaucer and note his subtle and dry sense of humor. It is an ability which is being lost, not due to a lack of resources, but to sheer laziness.


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## Jason (Jul 25, 2009)

OMFG! U cnt B 4real!

Sorry...had to do it. I really hate people who do that and I cringe every time I get a message like that.


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

Jason said:


> OMFG! U cnt B 4real!
> 
> Sorry...had to do it. I really hate people who do that and I cringe every time I get a message like that.


Sometimes you can cure people of that by SPEAKING that way to them in a face-to-face conversation...  

Then say, "Do you see how annoying that is?"

not that I would ever do that...


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## Jason (Jul 25, 2009)

You know, I hadn't thought of that. Going to have to try that some time.


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

Jason said:


> OMFG! U cnt B 4real!


I had my son to translate ...  lol


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## Ezmerelda (Oct 17, 2010)

I'm a bibliophile, and have a very eclectic collection of books. The day I leave them behind is the day the nukes fall. Nothing short of that would pry me away.

I still have most of my textbooks from college, plus homeschooling materials from daughter's high school years, for son to use when he gets to that age.

Reading is not only useful for learning skills, but it is a cheap form of entertainment that actually teaches you while you enjoy it, unlike TV.

Being able to re-tell the stories you've read in an entertaining manner will be appreciated by your friends and family in a dreary world...after the day's work is done, of course. Just as those who are able to play instruments will be welcome. 

I seem to recall an article written by a gentleman living through Argentina's collapse, in which he states that you should learn to play an instrument and maintain that ability, because music helps keep everyone sane during the black outs.


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## Aemilia (May 27, 2010)

Ezmerelda said:


> I seem to recall an article written by a gentleman living through Argentina's collapse, in which he states that you should learn to play an instrument and maintain that ability, because music helps keep everyone sane during the black outs.


Very true. I remember reading an article about how we are becoming music consumers - passively listening, unlike in the past where music had to be played or sung. Everyone near me will now be happy to know I have a sopranino recorder and can play half a dozen ditties ..... :flower:


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## goshengirl (Dec 18, 2010)

Quills said:


> Exactly, Jason, but imagine that you were brought up in an environment were "book learning" -- or reading at all -- wasn't encouraged, and your survival was dependent on, not only being ABLE to read that manual, but being able to comprehend and apply what you were reading.
> 
> That's the situation with a lot of people in our world today. They can read, they have the mechanics of it down, but they were never taught how to properly comprehend what they had read. Comprehension doesn't matter when all you're doing is teaching rote information to be regurgitated on a test. University is a hard lesson for a lot of high school graduates -- because in university, studying is much more independent and applied, often at odds with the way the student has learned up until that point, and they've not been taught to teach themselves, or gain information for themselves, only what is spoon-fed to them.
> 
> ...


:congrat: Excellently put.


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## dirtgrrl (Jun 5, 2011)

Seems to me the essense here is communication. If "LMAO" conveys what you are feeling, and the reader understands that feeling, then it is the appropriate thing to say. As long as you can communicate appropriately and effectively, then the particular vernacular you use is irrelevant. While "rotate clockwise" may be a little more precise than "turn it to the right", both pretty much convey the same meaning.

What bothers me is that many people do not understand the difference. Many times I have to remind the younger people in my office that official government communications are written in a different language than their texts or spoken word. I remind them that everything we write can be FOIA'd. Would they want this vaguely-worded and misspelled memo reminicient of a 12-year-old plastered on the front page of the local fed-hating newspaper? Would they really want the whole world to think they are stupid and wasted a hundred grand on their education? By their reactions, sometimes I think they really never thought about it that way before.

I think though, the best advantage of having an education is that I can immediately understand most well-written or well-spoken ideas. I read extremely quickly and have excellent comprehension so I don't waste time puzzling out unusual words or figuring out context. I will also add that I didn't acquire this ability from my formal education; I learned to read very young and had a college-level reading level before sixth grade. But, interestingly, not from reading Shakespeare or some other high-brow tome, but from the likes of Vonnegut, Clarke, and Asimov! If my parents had tried to push Shakespeare on me, I think I may have hated reading. As it was, they just got me a library card and didn't really care what I read. I found a genre I really enjoyed early on, and never looked back.

But anyone who knows how to think (not what to think) and communicate effectively has a leg up, no matter how formally or informally educated.


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

dirtgrrl said:


> Seems to me the essense here is communication. If "LMAO" conveys what you are feeling, and the reader understands that feeling, then it is the appropriate thing to say. As long as you can communicate appropriately and effectively, then the particular vernacular you use is irrelevant. While "rotate clockwise" may be a little more precise than "turn it to the right", both pretty much convey the same meaning.
> 
> What bothers me is that many people do not understand the difference. Many times I have to remind the younger people in my office that official government communications are written in a different language than their texts or spoken word. I remind them that everything we write can be FOIA'd. Would they want this vaguely-worded and misspelled memo reminicient of a 12-year-old plastered on the front page of the local fed-hating newspaper? Would they really want the whole world to think they are stupid and wasted a hundred grand on their education? By their reactions, sometimes I think they really never thought about it that way before.
> 
> ...


I agree completely. While I have been known to throw a "LMAO" or an "LOL" at the end of a text to my wife, we both know how to communicate without tbose crutches.

I also agree that reading comprehension plays a big part in later conceptual development. I also began reading at an advanced level at a young age; as you said, not great literary works, but Tolkein, Dumas, David Eddings, and the like. As I grew in years, so too did I grow in appreciation for the classics which inspired them. What it really instilled in me at a young age was a desire to learn.

As a side note, FOIA is a bitch, eh? I have had to remind coworkers of the same thing, especially when it pertains to legal matters.


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## CulexPipiens (Nov 17, 2010)

Ezmerelda said:


> I seem to recall an article written by a gentleman living through Argentina's collapse, in which he states that you should learn to play an instrument and maintain that ability, because music helps keep everyone sane during the black outs.


I think you might mean the author of this book. Amazon.com: The Modern Survival Manual: Surviving the Economic Collapse (9789870563457): Fernando Ferfal Aguirre: Books


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## Ezmerelda (Oct 17, 2010)

CulexPipiens said:


> I think you might mean the author of this book. Amazon.com: The Modern Survival Manual: Surviving the Economic Collapse (9789870563457): Fernando Ferfal Aguirre: Books


That's very possible.

In response to all the "I learned to read..." posts, I learned to read using the King James Bible - which ruined my spelling grades, since I live in America and learned all the British spellings from the Bible. I would get so annoyed with the teacher, and argue, "That's how you spell it and I can prove it." Then, she would say, "This is America and we don't spell it that way." :gaah:


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## 101airborne (Jan 29, 2010)

Frugal_Farmers said:


> When TSHTF, I'll take the wisdom of the uneducated hillbillies around me any day of the week over someone with a formal education.
> 
> I have learned all kinds of things from these folks.
> 
> ...


+1 I agree here along with what power and Ts said. While I really don't care all that much about "proper grammer" and such. IMO if you can express your point in a somewhat intelligent manner the way you spell it is just someone nit picking for lack of anything better to do.

Potato.... potatoe... tomato.... tomatoe.... it's all the same.


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

oldsoldier said:


> +1 I agree here along with what power and Ts said. While I really don't care all that much about "proper grammer" and such. IMO if you can express your point in a somewhat intelligent manner the way you spell it is just someone nit picking for lack of anything better to do.
> 
> Potato.... potatoe... tomato.... tomatoe.... it's all the same.


I could not disagree with you more. Think of it this way: Grammar is the difference between "I helped my uncle, Jack, off a horse" and "I helped my uncle jack off a horse". See the difference? People that are incapable of coherently and clearly expressing themselves stand the risk of letting their ignorance speak louder than their words.


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## Quills (Jun 14, 2011)

Turtle said:


> I could not disagree with you more. Think of it this way: Grammar is the difference between "I helped my uncle, Jack, off a horse" and "I helped my uncle jack off a horse". See the difference? People that are incapable of coherently and clearly expressing themselves stand the risk of letting their ignorance speak louder than their words.


Agreed, Turtle. I also find that good grammar and spelling tend to come as a result of reading. Extensive reading broadens our horizons and exposes us to ideas that otherwise, we might not be exposed to. That exposure allows us to better gauge situations, gives us better judgement.

Not much can replace experience, but learning from the experiences of others through reading comes a close second.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

In the movie "The Road" it was 20 years after TSHTF (oh-oh, an educational blunder, I'm using an acronym!  ) and the new generation couldn't read. They were making a library of books somewhere near San Francisco but I don't know if anyone was actually allowed to read them...if they could read at all.

Most of the bad grammar and misspelled words on these posts appear to me to be people in a hurry, distracted, or using text abbreviations. I noticed as I read through the pages of this thread that it contained the best grammar, spelling, and punctuation of any thread on the forum! Everyone is being careful I guess!  (Are these smiley icons 'bad gramar' as well, like text-speak? lol---oops, there I go again. I'll spell out "ha ha ha ha and inform you all that I laughed out loud when I typed that!)


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## dirtgrrl (Jun 5, 2011)

Gypsy, that movie was "Book of Eli", not "The Road" . But yes, one reason The Book had so much power was because most people at that time were unable to read. Being able to read automatically gave the reader more power, and so lent even more credibility and influence to his words.

There is nothing wrong with using language appropriate for the situation, no matter what it is. I speak differently at a conference full of scientists than I do one-on-one with a rancher. I speak differently with my friends than I do with strangers (whether they are scientists or not). The object, once again, is to communicate my intent, as well as explore and understand what the other person is saying too. 

Now I will hasten to add before someone brings it up that I do NOT talk DOWN to ranchers. I know a couple of the old guys still sitting on a horse and working the cattle well into their 80's. Watching them move those wild animals around is amazing. I've learned a tremendous amount from these guys, and quite frankly, you have to respect someone who can hobble a bull! So whether I'm speaking with a rancher, Native American, member of the general public, or an ivory-tower academic, I tailor my language (both verbal and body) to the situation.

And oh yes. If you ever run into some smarty-pants know-it-all spouting gibberish, don't tell them they don't make any sense. Just tell them their argument is counter-intuitive.


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## Quills (Jun 14, 2011)

The few grammatical errors or spelling errors seen on internet forums are inconsequential. I'm a trained proofreader and editor, and even I make them. It's the nature of the media, and it happens. What I'm talking about when I say "lack of communication skills" goes a bit deeper than that -- it's the wanton ignorance that goes with the belief that books and formal education are "useless"; the belief that "textspeak" is appropriate for any written communication, including business letters. It's the lack of comprehension by most people under 30 of a simply written instructional paragraph. 

I do freelance editing work, and up until a few years ago, it was considered standard for periodicals to write to a 10th grade reading level. This was considered the "limit" of comprehension for the average adult reader. Today, that has been lowered to a FIFTH GRADE reading level. We're talking ONE step above picture books. Why? My opinion is that the reason is twofold.

One, we've dumbed down the reading and comprehension requirements for grade-schoolers because "failing" them might hurt their little egos. We don't fail kids any more, even if they can't read.

And two, because people don't read as much as they used to. They are into all sorts of social media, most twelve year olds can text faster than I can type, and video games and online entertainment have replaced books in the average home. Parents don't put value on reading, so children don't. We're getting dumber, and it's not because we're any less intelligent than we used to be.

There is also the argument that children's brains are starving for proper nutrients, but that's a whole different thread.

The fact of the matter is, if we do not comprehend what we are reading, we are not understanding it, and that has all sorts of ramifications with regard to our daily lives. Didn't understand that mortgage agreement? Too bad, you're going to be paying through the nose. Didn't understand that lease agreement? Too bad... Didn't understand that contract? That agreement? Those instructions? You lose.

Comprehension is important, and you only get it by learning how to read properly (none of this "whole language" crap) and doing it often, with a wide range of reading material. It also helps if you've got an attention span longer than that of your average turnip, but again, that's another thread altogether.

Language is important. Communication skills are important. You can't effectively communicate ideas without those skills, and being able to effectively communicating ideas may, at some point, save your life.


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## tugboats (Feb 15, 2009)

Let me start off wirh this. "My math and history reachers done OK but my engkish teacher done learned me up real right swell."

Grammer and proper English are some of the most important things for the future. Please forgive my feeble attempts at writing.

I wish I had concentrated more when I had the opportunity. If I had better grammar, context and spelling I would be better at conveying my thoughts. I always stress learning in every endeavor of daily life. 

The art of communication is to convey your ideas to the audience. I am more educated than my writing indicates. My shortcomming in life (here is a big lie....my only shortcomming) is lack of confidence in writing. Your post has spurred me on to take a writing class the next time I see one listed.

All records, accomplishments, failures and events must be recorded. Doing this correctly will be a great and valuable skill to have. Thank you very much for raising this issue. You will get remembered in my will. 

Again, I say thank you. 

Knowledge will be our greatest asset. I noticed that you got some negative feed-back from some posters. I do not take you original premise as an attack. I think of it as a wake up call.

I'll do it, you record it, iffin I don't get me some learnin' soonly.

Thank you.


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## Calebra (Nov 8, 2010)

" A person who spells the same word in the same way over and over again lacks imagination. " Mark Twain. I am way over educated for my good. Now a days time spent in college is largely wasted--leaves you with nothing but a bunch of student loans and ex girlfriends you wish you could forget lol. People are never taught to think for themselves,to analyze facts. As a matter of fact usefully skills are largely lacking from most school and college programs as well. School has become mostly a mandatory indoctrination tool. To be honest there is really no place for pride in the educational achievements.


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

tugboats said:


> Let me start off wirh this. "My math and history reachers done OK but my engkish teacher done learned me up real right swell."
> 
> Grammer and proper English are some of the most important things for the future. Please forgive my feeble attempts at writing.
> 
> ...


Honestly, Tug, I would say that your ability to write is well above the average that one sees on a regular basis on the internet.

However, with that said, I am very happy that you took my original post as a "wake-up call", as that was all that I intended it to be. As I said, I think that you are already at a fine level, though I am not an English major by any means, so don't take my approval as a benediction from the Grammar Gods.  Kudos to you, as well, for choosing to pursue a topic in which you like to improve. I forget who originally said it, but: "Wisdom begins with admitting that you know nothing."


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

Calebra said:


> " A person who spells the same word in the same way over and over again lacks imagination. " Mark Twain. I am way over educated for my good. Now a days time spent in college is largely wasted--leaves you with nothing but a bunch of student loans and ex girlfriends you wish you could forget lol. People are never taught to think for themselves,to analyze facts. As a matter of fact usefully skills are largely lacking from most school and college programs as well. School has become mostly a mandatory indoctrination tool. To be honest there is really no place for pride in the educational achievements.


I must agree with you, in that most college courses do not encourage thought, only the regurgitation of facts. However, I also believe that even the most mundane class can be beneficial if one takes the need to learn upon themselves and does not depend on the instructor to make you think. Granted, the instructor's job is to facilitate learning, but if they are only presenting materiel, challenge yourself to dig a little deeper and actually learn something. I began to enjoy college much more when I began to take this approach.


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

Turtle said:


> I must agree with you, in that most college courses do not encourage thought, only the regurgitation of facts. However, I also believe that even the most mundane class can be beneficial if one takes the need to learn upon themselves and does not depend on the instructor to make you think. Granted, the instructor's job is to facilitate learning, but if they are only presenting materiel, challenge yourself to dig a little deeper and actually learn something. I began to enjoy college much more when I began to take this approach.


 My grandauter had a teacher in the 12th grade that hated her.Although most conservatives are called 'haters'there is noone more hateful than a liberal when you disagree.Also one of her college professors was the same way.She is the enemy of most unionizd teachers and agenda pushing professors,shes straight,white and conservative also very attractive.The 12th grade teach gave her bad grades and humiliated her in front of the class.She was on honor roll throughout most of school.She would come home in tears sometimes,when I told her I'd go set the freaks straight,she said, please don't it will only be worse.Intimidation is just one of many tools these thugs use on our children.


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## CulexPipiens (Nov 17, 2010)

Calebra said:


> " A person who spells the same word in the same way over and over again lacks imagination. " Mark Twain. I am way over educated for my good. Now a days time spent in college is largely wasted--leaves you with nothing but a bunch of student loans and ex girlfriends you wish you could forget lol. People are never taught to think for themselves,to analyze facts. As a matter of fact usefully skills are largely lacking from most school and college programs as well. School has become mostly a mandatory indoctrination tool. To be honest there is really no place for pride in the educational achievements.


College, for many, serves only to get that piece of paper so you can get past one of the "resume filters" in the workforce. HR: "Hmm... let's see, we have 300 resumes and I don't want to read them... ok, let's throw away the 140 with no college degree. Now let's throw away the next 100 with no certifications. Now let's dump any that put down fair salary requirements instead of being willing to work for peanuts. Good. 12. I can go through those." Not to put down HR here... however there is a lot of candidate filtering that happens on an arbritray basis. Instead of finding the most qualified based on knowledge and experience they look for someone who makes it past their useless filters.


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

You can get rusty with grammar if you leave society.Basically thats what we did a couple decades ago.Hubby worked but it was blue collar and not a lot of socializing,mostly I've been a housewife,mother and grandmother.While others were having n-hood bar-b-ques and parties we were going camping,fishing or boating with kids ,then grandkids.You can forget proper english if you don't use it that often.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

What's that old saying "a bad idea well stated is better received than a good idea poorly expressed" or something to that effect. At any rate, someone well-spoken & skilled at rhetoric can make anything sound great. That's often how we've ended up with bad ideas being implemented in the past & that's how we'll end up with more of it in the future if people aren't educated. If you put someone skilled in rhetoric with decent command of the English language experessing a bad idea against someone uneducated expressing a bad idea, the masses will choose the bad idea everytime.


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

tsrwivey said:


> What's that old saying "a bad idea well stated is better received than a good idea poorly expressed" or something to that effect. At any rate, someone well-spoken & skilled at rhetoric can make anything sound great. That's often how we've ended up with bad ideas being implemented in the past & that's how we'll end up with more of it in the future if people aren't educated. If you put someone skilled in rhetoric with decent command of the English language experessing a bad idea against someone uneducated expressing a bad idea, the masses will choose the bad idea everytime.


 Not always is it the education of whos talking but the idea that people like good news and entertainment.Idols and those who will tell them things they want to hear.Someone said 'reality is scolfted at,illusion is king'.Gift of gab only goes so far if the message is not popular or promising.
Take a good look at some of the most popular race hustlers,especially atheletes and movie stars,most are not that good with grammar,especially the fools that say 'and uhh',and like'and other phrases 50 times in a 100 word sentence.Some spit alot too.This is who we listen to,not english majors.
And like ,I had a nice time,and like we went to 'and like'the show,and like we 'uhh like' had to ..........This is who fools make millionaires and billionaires out of.


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## Quills (Jun 14, 2011)

Turtle said:


> I must agree with you, in that most college courses do not encourage thought, only the regurgitation of facts. However, I also believe that even the most mundane class can be beneficial if one takes the need to learn upon themselves and does not depend on the instructor to make you think. Granted, the instructor's job is to facilitate learning, but if they are only presenting materiel, challenge yourself to dig a little deeper and actually learn something. I began to enjoy college much more when I began to take this approach.


Absolutely, Turtle! The operative word here, however, is *IF*. Children coming through the public education system over the past twenty years have lacked this skill -- they don't know what they don't know, because everyone they've ever encountered has been so busy telling them how wonderful and accomplished they are!

Try employing someone under 30 these days. They have an over-elevated view of their own skill-set. They don't want to learn from people who have more experience than they do, and their degree is ALWAYS "more advanced" than anything YOU might have. They have an attitude that, once they write the correct tests and gain that degree, that's all they need.

My DH is a PEng. He has three advanced degrees, and twenty five years work experience. Hiring someone three or four -- or even ten -- years out of school is a nightmare to him, because he knows that they, as a rule, they don't know how to learn, and worse, they don't think they have to.

Regurgitation of facts is not an education. Training your brain to think in a certain way, and assimilate knowledge and experience into something applicable is. We NEVER stop learning, if we've been taught how to teach ourselves. Unfortunately, children in our public schools are no longer taught this skill.


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## CulexPipiens (Nov 17, 2010)

Quills, well said. We get lucky and sometimes get a new to the workforce person who turns out to be good but most fall in your your analysis... think they know it all and don't want to work.


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## goshengirl (Dec 18, 2010)

Quills said:


> Absolutely, Turtle! The operative word here, however, is *IF*. Children coming through the public education system over the past twenty years have lacked this skill -- they don't know what they don't know, because everyone they've ever encountered has been so busy telling them how wonderful and accomplished they are!
> 
> Try employing someone under 30 these days. They have an over-elevated view of their own skill-set. They don't want to learn from people who have more experience than they do, and their degree is ALWAYS "more advanced" than anything YOU might have. They have an attitude that, once they write the correct tests and gain that degree, that's all they need.
> 
> ...


:congrat: :congrat: :congrat:
I often think how that attitude must be a nightmare for today's employers.


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

goshengirl said:


> :congrat: :congrat: :congrat:
> I often think how that attitude must be a nightmare for today's employers.


which is why I'll never BE an 'employee' ever again... if my way works better then I will put my competition out of business, if it doesn't... then I'll be on the losing side (hint: it hasn't happened yet  )

I'll learn as much as I can from people with more experience; that being said-- just because you've been doing something for 20-30 years, doesn't mean you've been doing it _*right*_. :surrender:

experience is more than just 'time served' for people of ANY age


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## 101airborne (Jan 29, 2010)

Quills said:


> Agreed, Turtle. I also find that good grammar and spelling tend to come as a result of reading. Extensive reading broadens our horizons and exposes us to ideas that otherwise, we might not be exposed to. That exposure allows us to better gauge situations, gives us better judgement.
> 
> Not much can replace experience, but learning from the experiences of others through reading comes a close second.


Well... I about half way agree here, While I admit my speelling isn't great,my punctuation is terrible I admit. i won't even mention my grammer, LOL. That doesn't really prove anything about me the person. I have an extensive library with everything from "shoot em' up' westerns to many of the classic's I spend more time reading and studying than watching TV or on the "net".

I have a couple of friends that have the slightest clue what a proper sentence structure is, Nor couple the spell the capital of Afganistain. BUT they can tell you and show you how to build a fire using several methods NOT using matches, lighters or such. They can as can I take you out into mothers natures drug store and show you what plants to use to cure "the runs" along with several dozen othe ailments.

Who would you rather learn "survival" procedures from? Someone like that despite the fact they are bad spellers? Or some desk jockey that can write a perfect sentence or paragraph but doesn't know a cattail from a corn cob?

Now I agree that being able to properly express one's self Is important. Because if we can not get our point across to others or be able to let others know what we want or need can be a problem. I just don't really care if someone can not spell something exactly corect as long as one can understand the meaning.


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