# I am so excited....FIRST gun show this weekend!



## TexasMama (Dec 3, 2012)

There is probably a better place to put this - but I don't know where. I just HAVE to share.

We don't own any guns but after reading the "299 Days" series in particular and other books also, I've become convinced that we need to bump up on our list of preps the need to purchase some guns and get some training and our conceal/carry license. 

So, Lord willing and our van gets fixed on Thursday - we're going to travel the 4+ hours to Austin, TX to go to my first gun show this weekend and use some of my husband's bonus money to buy each of us a gun and ammo. I also want to look into good quality backpacks. I have an idea of what I want for those.

I know next to nothing about guns but I find myself leaning towards a Glock (I forget which one - I have it written down) because I understand that they are easier for newbies like me. 

I am just so excited. I don't think like it will be long before we get our rights to have guns revoked...at least a lot of them - and we're going to get our guns and training before that happens.

Thanks for listening to me about this - my family doesn't quite get my excitement.

Oh - the one thing we do know is that we want to both use the same size ammo to make things easier at first!


----------



## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

> I've become convinced that we need to bump up on our list of preps the need to purchase some guns and get some training and our conceal/carry license.


This is where I stand up and start a slow clap that leads to a full applause. :congrat:

There is a recent thread reviewing a book about gun info for the unfamiliar. Might be worth buying to give you a good base of info before you head out and explore that gun show. Because, and this tip is free, gun salesman are NOT knowledgeable about guns. They are knowledgeable about what guns they want to sell you and what to say to get you to buy. Think used car salesman. Sometimes just for fun I will go to gun shops and play "gun chess" with salesmen only to find out they could barely play "gun checkers". While this may not be universally true, in my experience across this land, it is true WAY more often than not. I once intervened when a salesman was trying to convince a novice woman that the perfect gun for her for home defense was a $1000 1911 in .45acp. This woman explained in detail that she knew nothing about guns and had never shot one. I stepped in and told her not to listen to this guy and we had a nice chat about guns and home defense. She ended up buying a $250 Smith & Wesson Model 65, a set of Hogue grips and 2 speed loaders from the stores manager. I then got her set up in an NRA basic course at my range.

Found the thread: http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f49/gun-book-beginners-15789/


----------



## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

As Sentry noted, you're going to be dealing with used salesmen.

To be honest, although I do go to the shows, I don't think I ever bought anything. Most of what they're selling is available at your local gun store for the same price. Know the prices of what you're looking at before buying at the show! Personally, I prefer dealing with a person/store that's going to be there the next day...


----------



## smaj100 (Oct 17, 2012)

Sentry and Zoom both hit the nail on the head. Try to do some research on both prices and features.

I've been around guns most of my life since I was able to hold up that ruger 22. While my father and I didnt always see eye to eye I can honestly say I am glad now that he taught me what he did, and tanned my hide on more than one occasion for screwing around with firearms when there was no need for it. 

That being said my wife had never held a gun (she's a yankee from Mass). The best thing I did for her was to take her to a rental range that I frequented at a non busy time and let her hold many unloaded weapons and see which one felt good in her hand after trying to explain what that "feeling" was. Then I let her shoot the ones she thought felt good. I opted to not let her choose a glock period. I didn't want a trigger safety type gun in that bottomless pit she calls a purse. And while some say it's ok and don't carry one in the chamber ( i don't think thats practical or prudent). She eventually choose a 38sp snubby revolver. 

She now shoots better than I do with most of my guns and has added a couple more to her collection of daily carry's. I can't emphasize enough about getting some training both basic and advanced. I spent 20+ years in the army around all manner of firearms, so I could teach her alot, sometimes it's better to hear something in a different way from someone else.

Just my .02 worth, hope it helps.


----------



## Shammua (Jan 27, 2012)

Here are some site's I use to price shop, and I have even bought from and been extremely happy

www.gunbroker.com
www.stonertactical.com
www.bulkammo.com
www.budsgunshop.com
www.cheaperthandirt.com

Hit your local shops, and don't forget family or friends that are long time shooters and have exposure to several kinds and styles.

When I was buying mine, my buddy kept telling me to get an AK instead of an AR, but since I wouldn't change my mind he did some digging as well to show me what he would get if he was getting an AR for himself.

I do have to admit I have an unfair advantage around here because I know a ton of Special Forces guys from all branches of service and they have lots of exposure to things we don't get to play with and they also have more trigger time than your average bear...


----------



## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

You just got some good advice. I like glocks just dont over pay. Congrats in advance and get enough ammo to get good with your new piece . Unarmed equals subject armed equals citizen.


----------



## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Before that gun show, if you get a chance I would go to local gun shops and shop. Handle several guns and kinda get a feel for something that might fit you good. I am not a Glock fan but there is no doubt that they are "good" guns. Keep an open mind and handle both autos and revolvers. There are advantages for both. A tip - the smaller a gun the easier/more comfortable it is to carry(especially concealed). The smaller a gun is the harder it is to hit your target and the more felt recoil. Auto pistols shoot one caliber of ammo, while revolvers often can shoot more than one(lighter and heavier loads) that can be a plus.


----------



## kejmack (May 17, 2011)

Hiwall, Sentry and the others are right! Don't go to a gunshow to buy your first gun. 

If I were you, I'd go to a reputable gun store and handle a few. If they have a range, you can shoot one or two to see if you really can handle it. Take someone who knows guns with you if at all possible.

If I had known ahead of time, I would be able to meet you in Austin and help you.


----------



## backlash (Nov 11, 2008)

If you drive 4 hours just to go to a gun show you just spent more on gas than you can ever save at a gun show.
Shop local.
I gave up on gun shows a long time ago.
Deals are not very good at the ones I have been to.
Like everyone else said be a smart consumer and know what the gun you want actually cost before you buy.
I would also suggest you look at revolvers if you are new and don't know much about guns.
I have revolvers and auto loaders and I think the revolvers are safer in the hands of a new shooter.


----------



## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

You can however go have a great time handle a ton of different guns and collect cards or business numbers from anyone that had a gun you were intrested in. Write down the info do some gun specific research and contact them after you have made a decision and or talk to your local guy (love to support those little local guys) he might be able to find you one maybe even a better price or you can find one on gun broker or somewhere and have it sent to your local guy or you can contact the gun show guy and have him send the gun to your local guy. Don't let em pressure you into a impulse buy at the show. Go look have fun you can often get better ammo deals at the shows somply because you are eliminating the shipping of the heavy items. Should be surplus guys around to might get a good deal on the BOB bags you mentioned gotta love them old alice packs.


----------



## Ravensoracle (Oct 4, 2010)

I found my first EDC at a gun show. But I had already fired the same model at a local gun store. I would have bought through the local store but the salesman made a derogatory comment about women shooters in front of my wife. Kinda glad the guy was a prick, found the same gun from a semi-local dealer about an hour and a half further away from us. Got the brand new XDM-9 for $50 less than the first store was selling their used ones. The guy I bought from had prices 10% cheaper than almost all of the other tables at the show as well.


----------



## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

I'm a little late to the party, but congratulations.

I *won't* tell you not to buy your first gun at a gun show. I *will* tell you that what you buy may not actually suit you once you get it home and actually fire it. I recommend to _everyone_ who is new to firearms that they handle and shoot as many different brands/models/calibers as possible before making a decision and spending money. I am probably too far away to be of any assistance, but I don't mind taking new folks to the range and letting them shoot my firearms(you'll have to pay for your own range fees and ammo though.  ). That said, I prefer revolvers and don't have much variety in autoloaders. Some ranges will rent firearms, so that's another avenue.


----------



## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

A lot of sage advice here.
Guns are fun and <if you ar eknowledgable> good deals camn be had.
If not its harder.

For an absoulte novice like yourselfs Revolvers might be a better choice.
As they are simpler to use, (arguably) need less cleaning, and are for many more intutive to aim accurately.

Since Revolvers are currently not so much in fashion better prices can often be had for used ones.
BUt new ones arent super expensive either.

Enjoy the gun show and few it like a fun trip to the spa.
If you cna take aknowledgable perosn with you.
Since you are in TX there is a good chance someone form this site might be going there too.


----------



## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

http://www.gunshowminute.com/gunshows/texas/

This is a link to gunshows in Texas. There's also one in San Antonio this weekend and one in Live Oak & Robstown next weekend. I seem to recall there was one in McAllen last weekend.

I will also agree with previous posters about buying local.
The best deals I've found at gunshows are for ammo and some optics, but YMMV depending on what you're searching for.


----------



## Startingout-Blair (Aug 28, 2012)

Most experienced gun owners get excited when they hear an inexperienced person show an interest in guns. You are getting a whole lot of great advice here. If I may suggest, find your local sportsman clubs, shooting clubs, ranges, etc. Go down and talk to people. Some will be willing to let you try what they are utilizing that day. Also, some of the clubs provide safety classes. It's a great way to learn about the different guns available, even if you don't shoot any, and also a great way to connect with other shooters and potentially, Preppers. All this takes is just a little of your time and well worth a try!


----------



## biobacon (Aug 20, 2012)

That forum BlueZ has a link to is awsome, I dont have the time to spend there but join if you can, lots of good people there who know alot about guns.


----------



## partdeux (Aug 3, 2011)

gun shows can be fun, but good deals are hard to find...

plus, and most importantly you can't shoot multiple firearms to find the one that you like best. I would prefer a range where you can rent multiple guns and maybe even get some time with an instructor.

What part of texas are you in? Might want to wander over to the sister site, firearmstalk.com to see if anybody has a recommendation in your area.


----------



## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

Texasmama stay home!! The best thing you can do is go to a range that rent pistols. In 9mm, .40 and .45, fire a Glock, Smith n Wesson M&P, Springfield XDm and also a few revolvers. You will decide which one fits you the best and you feel most comfortable with. Then buy one online and have it shipped to a local FFL seller. You will save money and buy the gun that fits you best. Most gun shows have higher prices than you can find online and you definitely don't want to buy a gun you haven't shot first.


----------



## TexasMama (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks everyone for the advice. I know we have a shooting range here....not sure if they rent anything. 

The only "gun store" that I know of here in town is run by a rancher who is there and has the store open more of when he's ins the mood..from what I've been told. I can go look at Ace Hardware and at some pawn shops maybe.

It's a long story - but our van has been in the shop for the last 10-12 weeks (mechanic has been ill for a bit - got ill after starting to work on the van - should be out of the shop today - hence the ability to go to the show in Austin).

Anyway - once the van is out of the shop we can go to a shop about 70 miles away. I guess I thought if we went to the gun show (which we will still be going to) I could see different guns, etc.

I was going to take a list of the ones I'm interested in - and the prices from the internet with me.


----------



## Startingout-Blair (Aug 28, 2012)

No problem going and window shopping. I do agree with the others: don't buy unless you know what you're getting. On the other side of things, you could always get your FFL yourself.


----------



## Boomy (Mar 17, 2012)

Four hours west? I know for a fact that Mason has a couple of shops. I can't imagine any town over on that side not having a shop? This time of year look for blaze orange signs. Shops put them out to attract hunters. Hunters like guns.... you get the idea...


----------



## TexasMama (Dec 3, 2012)

backlash said:


> If you drive 4 hours just to go to a gun show you just spent more on gas than you can ever save at a gun show.
> Shop local.
> I gave up on gun shows a long time ago.
> Deals are not very good at the ones I have been to.
> ...


Well - 3.5 hours of that drive is to see our son in San Marcos.....so I can't say we're ONLY going to see the guns and stuff at the gun show.

The only "local" gun shop besides the one owned by the rancher guy is if I go to Ace Hardware or Walmart....which doesn't have much selection.

I do know enough to know I want to have something that uses a magazine. I also want 9mm cause that is what my husband wants and we would like to share ammo as we stock it up.


----------



## TexasMama (Dec 3, 2012)

Many of you will probably laugh at this and shake your heads...that's ok. You have to understand that my husband's bonus comes in this week - every year we set aside 80 hours of pay so he has a "bonus" even if it is of our own making.

A friend of his who has a lot of guns - saw something in Walmart and was talking to him about it - how he wants to get it to use out around where he lives for vermint, etc. Here is a link to it from Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Beeman-Grizzly-Air-Rifle-Combo/dp/B003MTGXRA

It is an air rifle combo with both .177 and .22 barrels. It was only $114 or something like that.

My husband came home and we talked about it - I know more about the finances but I could see that he "REALLY" wanted it. I told him to go back and get it - plus one for me to have so I can practice pretty cheap.

I know it's not a "real" gun per se as far as using bullets vs. pellets - but dang..that thing is heavy!

We live in town but we can go out to his friend's place and put up targets or bottles or whatever and practice shooting with these. My husband also has an air pistol or something like that we can use.

We're still going to get "real" guns as I called them....but this is sort of a way for me to ease into shooting a rifle and the ammo is so cheap (he paid $16 to get 500 of both sizes) and it will give us both something to do together.

I'm still wanting a gun for Christmas - but at least this looks scary and realistic and the government can't take it away from me.


----------



## TexasMama (Dec 3, 2012)

Boomy said:


> Four hours west? I know for a fact that Mason has a couple of shops. I can't imagine any town over on that side not having a shop? This time of year look for blaze orange signs. Shops put them out to attract hunters. Hunters like guns.... you get the idea...


Actually, I'm 3 hours west of San Antonio. Don't know where Mason is...sorry.

My husband was told we should go to Uvalde to the gun shop there - but that is 70 miles from here.


----------



## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

Nothing wrong with air guns. I've switched a lot of our family shooting to using those. It is a LOT cheaper when doing your plinking. Can't speak for the one you're looking at but a couple of ours can hit a 1/2 dollar sized object from about 25 yards all day long. They're not the BB guns of yesteryear. They're pretty darn accurate nowadays.


----------



## sgtrunningfool (Dec 8, 2012)

I am thinking there is a couple of shops in del Rio and I know of several in San Angelo.


----------



## GaryS (Nov 15, 2011)

Ditto for the advice you've gotten. I've been to many gun shows and never bought a gun, but they have lots of accessories that I've bought because you can see and handle competing products.

When shopping for a concealed carry gun for my wife, I bought her a Ruger LCP, and then discovered that arthritis in her hands made it impossible to jack a round in the chamber. She eventually found a rental 9mm Beretta that she could operate to get her license, so she qualified with both a revolver and a pistol. She bought a S&W .357 Magnum revolver to carry in the car.

My preference is a .45 Colt, 1911 model. I like the accuracy and the low recoil from the heavy gun, but it might be too much gun for many women. My wife loves shooting it, but thinks it's too big. 

One thing I did for her was buy a rifle chambered for .357, so she would have a long gun that fired the same ammo as her revolver, and the fact that it can fire cheaper .38 rounds makes it a lot easier on the bank account to practice.


----------



## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

Startingout-Blair said:


> No problem going and window shopping. I do agree with the others: don't buy unless you know what you're getting. On the other side of things, you could always get your FFL yourself.


That's a lot of BS to deal with, particularly for anyone without a dedicated business storefront. Home based FFL's are still obtainable/doable, but it adds more crap on top of existing stupidity.


----------



## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

GaryS said:


> Ditto for the advice you've gotten. I've been to many gun shows and never bought a gun, but they have lots of accessories that I've bought because you can see and handle competing products.
> 
> When shopping for a concealed carry gun for my wife, I bought her a Ruger LCP, and then discovered that arthritis in her hands made it impossible to jack a round in the chamber. She eventually found a rental 9mm Beretta that she could operate to get her license, so she qualified with both a revolver and a pistol. She bought a S&W .357 Magnum revolver to carry in the car.
> 
> ...


The .357 mag in a levergun is just almost on par with a 30-30 and burns about half the powder. A .357 carbine was my wife's first deer rifle.


----------



## Startingout-Blair (Aug 28, 2012)

zombieresponder said:


> That's a lot of BS to deal with, particularly for anyone without a dedicated business storefront. Home based FFL's are still obtainable/doable, but it adds more crap on top of existing stupidity.


I agree with you! Way too much BS. I have at least 4 gunshops within a 10 minute drive from here. One even has the ability to sell fully auto. But, if I was in a situation where I did not have a gunshop with an hour drive, I would consider the FFL


----------



## Boomy (Mar 17, 2012)

TexasMama said:


> Actually, I'm 3 hours west of San Antonio. Don't know where Mason is...sorry.
> 
> My husband was told we should go to Uvalde to the gun shop there - but that is 70 miles from here.


Sorry, Menard. I go on a annual get together out there.

Also I checked and Uvalde has at least one and Utopia has a couple, and there is one in Del Rio.


----------



## TexasMama (Dec 3, 2012)

Well - I'm not going to the gun show - several reasons (part of which is y'all convinced me it isn't the smartest idea).

We did rent a car and went to Ace True Value and looked at guns today. The guy I dealt with was awesome....not pushy at all. It's pretty obvious he sells to a lot of newbie women and is used to dealing with us.

He had me handle a few different guns and see how they felt in my hands. I found one I really liked - and another one which was my second choice of what he had. He also had me try some that were slightly "heavier" but I didn't feel comfortable with them.

Then he had me "cock" them (is that the term?) - I don't know how to describe it. He said before he sells a woman a gun, he always likes to have them try that because sometimes we don't have the upper body strength that men do and he wanted me to understand what goes into using the gun, etc. 

He said that he's found that if a man buys a gun and it isn't a good fit, he'll make himself master the gun (or sell it to someone and buy another one) but if a woman buys a gun and it isn't a good fit- she'll put it in the drawer and not use it like she needs to. 

In other words - he's very careful about selling women their first guns because he wants them to enjoy using them and not buy something that isn't a good match.

He was more than willing to sell me a gun today - however - he recommended that BEFORE I buy a gun, I take a gun safety course (and he give me business cards for three people here in town) and ask to try out several guns to see how they feel when I use them.

WOW - sounds just like a suggestion y'all had for me. 

He said that while it would probably run $150 or so for the lessons - that it might save me hundreds of $$ on a gun that wouldn't work well for me.

With that said - the two that I liked the best were the Taurus PT-740 (I think I have that right) and the Kel-Tech P-11. I have these written down - I'm sharing them here from memory. 

The Taurus felt best in my hand but was harder for me to work with (required more upper body strength) - whereby the Kel-Tech wasn't as comfortable in my hand but was much easier to use.

I've decided to ask for the lessons for Christmas and then I"ll go ahead and get the gun in January or whatever - after I've tried a few different ones. 

I must admit - I didn't realize how much would go into buying a gun - how they would each feel different in your hand - how they would need different strengths, etc. to work with them. WOW. So much to learn.

I'm so glad I decided to visit a local dealer....he was absolutely awesome - not high pressure at all. The only bad thing about it was my husband was with me - and of course he had to "lecture" me about "gun etiquette" in front of the guy because I wasn't thinking about where I was pointing the UNLOADED (no magazine, etc) gun while I was trying to hold it in my hand. He might've made points with folks for knowing how to handle a gun - but he also made bonus points for being a douchebag about embarrassing me in front of the salesman.

As I told my daughter (who was with us also) - I am definitely going to go back and talk to the salesman - but without my husband from now on.

This is a shame cause after 33 years of marriage...we normally get along great, etc - you'd think he'd be smart enough to be encouraging about all this - instead of being a pain in the butt.

Anyway - I'm glad I looked locally and I'm glad I now have some contacts in the area for getting some gun training before buying a gun.


----------



## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

Well I duno HOW he corected you but I do it to my fiance as well she said somthing to me about it and we discussed it. I pointed out that all guns are to be considered loaded at all times. And it only takes one screw up to end a life. And pointed out that not only do I do it to everyone, (she got the idea I was singling her out) But that I expect her to watch me and point out when I make mistakes as after 30 years of gun handling I can stil make mistakes to. I also always watch my tone I am trying to create a shooter not run a potential shooter off. 

She has looked at several guns as well and liked a few. Guess which one of MY guns she habitually carries. My kel tec P-11. You may also look at the kel tec pf 9 if you get a chance it actually holds a few less rounds but is probably a little easier to shoot accurately. I have personal prejudices against the taruses so I"ll stay out of that one esp since I don't have familiarity with that particular one. 

As for your sales guy he sounds like a real keeper. Even if he manages to be a couple dollars higher somtimes He sounds like the kind of guy that needs to be kept in business. 

Question have you looked at any bigger (what i call duty size) handguns. What you have mentioned is certainly good and will serve excellently as a concealed carry peice. But for teotwaki you might want somthing with a big more size and capacity (just my 2c worth) I love that you decided to get some training BEFORE selecting your handgun hope the trainers are truly as good as the sales guy and give you a good selection to learn from. 

sounds like you got it all mapped out Congrats.


----------



## Startingout-Blair (Aug 28, 2012)

I don't know you or you husband and I am not taking sides, but your husband may not have been trying to embarass you. The single most important thing to remember and practice at all times when handling, transporting, or storing guns is SAFETY! First rule is: treat every gun as if it is loaded at all times. So many people are accidentally killed by "unloaded" guns. You always hear people say "but the gun was unloaded" or "I didn't think there were any shells in it". Follow this first rule and you should never be dealing with an "accident". Second rule: never point a gun at anything unless you plan to shoot it. Just looking at a weapon, many people get excited or distracted and don't realize the barrel of the weapon is pointing at someone or something that they would never plan to shoot. In combination with Rule 1, this should ensure accidents never happen. Third Rule: never touch the trigger until you are ready to fire at your target. These basic three rules will ensure safety for 99% of the time. There are many other safety rules, but I believe these three are most important!


----------



## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

TexasMama said:


> Many of you will probably laugh at this and shake your heads...
> ...It is an air rifle combo with both .177 and .22 barrels. It was only $114 or something like that.


I'm laughing because I have the same air rifle, but I remember it being a bit more than $114.  Wal Mart also sells a bullet (pellet) trap (~$15) so you can practice in your backyard.


----------



## TexasMama (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks everyone. My husband is a great guy - really nice - really smart - but not so great on tact. Even my daughter said that it was like he was trying to impress the guy with his knowledge of guns....and that he was out of line. (She's 28).

I must admit that the salesman is a keeper - I really appreciated the fact that he didn't push me to get a gun NOW and in fact he was like, "I can tell you're disappointed and if you really want a gun - I'll sell you one...but I would prefer to see you have a good experience." I smiled and thanked him for his time (and bought a flashlight for my son's stocking - cause the guy had spent the better part of at least half an hour if not an hour working with us...).


----------



## partdeux (Aug 3, 2011)

GREAT NEWS!

If he has one, look at an M&P Shield too. I will argue with the salesman, with technique, almost everybody can pull back a slide. My wife is on her third carry piece, I think this one is going to be a keeper, .38spl revolver. It's not the friendliest gun to shoot with, but you pull the trigger and it goes bang.

Take an orientation class, then go shoot a bunch at a range. As you get comfortable, take your CHP class, then shoot some more.

Bottom line, most women will outshoot their husbands. During our conceal course, the instructor created a scenario of noise and activity, and I shot like crap. SWMBO became extremely focused and became scary accurate.


----------



## TexasMama (Dec 3, 2012)

I probably didn't correctly quote him. It was basically that "at first" many women can't pull back the slide right off and they might give up on owning/using the gun if they buy it without trying that first. 

He also talked about building muscle memory by taking out the magazine, etc. and just sitting and pulling back the slide while watching tv so that you build up the upper body strength and the muscle memory, etc.

Anyway - it wasn't so much that women "can't" as it was that they might give up if they hadn't realized how hard it could be.

He also was real positive about women shooters though and he said it can be a LOT of fun for a woman to go out to the range or a couple, etc. He said he has a lot of women customers - even repeat customers who wind up collecting guns.

He was truly a keeper as far as someone I want to deal with.


----------



## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

The salesman's(kudo's to the guy btw) comments are spot on from my experience, though most people I know will sell a gun if it doesn't suit them.

My wife has a KelTec P11(she picked it out herself). I've been pretty impressed with the little gun, though the trigger is _terrible_ and reminds me more of a staplegun than a firearm. The overall downside to the P11 is lots of recoil, but that's to be expected given the light weight. My wife doesn't like shooting it, though I think it was more from the checkering on the grip rubbing her hands than the recoil itself. I put a hogue grip sleeve on it to fix that. Be sure to shoot one, if possible, before you buy. Kahr Arms makes some guns that are similar in size, but are of much higher quality overall. The price difference reflects it. I'm not saying that the KelTec is low quality, just that you only get so much at a given price level.

Something you'll probably never come across again: _Most_ women will learn faster and be able to shoot better than their male companions. The reason is mindset and preconceptions. Men tend to approach something like firearms thinking that they already know enough, while women tend to approach them just the opposite. My wife has outshot me with my own firearms, one of which being the first time she fired that particular handgun.

Maybe I've overlooked it somewhere in this thread, but what is the intended purpose of this handgun going to be? In other words, will it be a concealed carry gun, home defense gun, etc.? If it's not going to be a concealed carry gun, then I suggest looking at full size models instead of compacts and subcompacts. Yes, they're bigger and heavier, but they're also easier to aim and will have less recoil. The slides, with an autoloader, are almost always easier to operate on larger guns as well. That's not just because there is more to grab onto, but also because the recoil spring doesn't need to be as strong with a larger, heavier slide.


----------



## TexasMama (Dec 3, 2012)

Zombieresponder - this will be my first gun and probably my conceal carry gun. 

If I find I like shooting - heaven help us....I could see myself getting more and more of them - one for the bedroom - one for the kitchen - etc. etc. (for PROTECTION of course!)


----------



## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

ONe is NEVER enough!!


----------



## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

> With that said - the two that I liked the best were the Taurus PT-740 (I think I have that right) and the Kel-Tech P-11.


To be the voice of reason here, I personally would be hesitant in buying either of those guns. I know they are both popular with low-end budget gun community, and I actually own a Kel-Tec P11, but they fail quickly under stress testing and are really not the best starter gun. There is a thread over at Gun Nuts Media where they tested a Kel-Tec PF9 and the barrel was broken by 300 rounds. They are also not drop safe and have pretty harsh recoil compared to other similar guns by major manufacturers. We have yet to have a single Kel-Tec model pass our required testing to be carried on duty as a back up gun, but we have broke a dozen or so in the process.

In the Taurus slim series the PT-740 is known to be much more problematic than the PT-709, primarily because of the over pressured .40 round. The PT-709 is a little more popular and it is a better gun. Taurus has spotty quality control but are getting better. I am not trying to pee in anyone's koolaid, but much better guns are available for just a little more money. I am not going to make a long list of guns I would rate much higher than those two, the choice is obviously yours, but I will offer up this advice; entry level "budget" products are fine for some things, but not for something that you may be betting your very life on.

My wife went through several guns in her hunt for a pistol she liked. She loved the size and feel of compacts, but HATED the sharp recoil that is inherent in the design. She loved the feel of some of the larger guns out there but did not want to drag the weight around with her all the time. In the end she settled on a compact single stack (the S&W Ladysmith 3914) with a little more heft and a larger slide. Recoil is soft, accuracy is very good, reliability is not a concern and it fits her hands well. But we bought and sold approx. 7 guns before we found that one. I immediately went out and bought two S&W 908's (same gun in value priced configuration) for my daughters. Then we had more daughters and I had to go buy more Smiths!


----------



## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

TexasMama you hit a homerun with that salesman. As a one time gun shop owner and a firearms instructor, I can tell you that he gave you some of the best advice that a gun salesman could give. 

If you are not comfortable with a pistol or revolver, you will not be confident in that firearm and in your ability to hit what you aim at with that particular firearm.

If you go with a pistol (semi-automatic), as the salesman said make sure that you can comfortably operate the slide and that the slide release lever is not stiff and is easy to operate. Using the slide release to let the slide go forward after you remove the magazine is fine, but one "trick of the trade" that many (if not most) long time pistol shooters will tell you is not to rely on the slide release lever when loading a round into the chamber. Instead pull the slide fully to the rear and release it and let it slam forward. Do not hold on to the slide as it goes forward, but as I said just release it and allow it to "slam forward.

99.9% of the time allowing it "slam forward" will result in the pistol going into "full battery" (which is what should happen when you use the slide release, but dosen't always occur) and resulting in the round being properly seated, the action all the way forward, and a pistol that is totally safe to fire.

As for gun shows, well they (for the most part) are a great place to find ammo, mags, parts, military surplus and usually a bunch of "prepper goodies", but as was said many times don't buy your guns there.

Good luck, God's speed and have fun learning.


----------



## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

Sentry18 said:


> To be the voice of reason here, I personally would be hesitant in buying either of those guns. I know they are both popular with low-end budget gun community, and I actually own a Kel-Tec P11, but they fail quickly under stress testing and are really not the best starter gun. There is a thread over at Gun Nuts Media where they tested a Kel-Tec PF9 and the barrel was broken by 300 rounds. They are also not drop safe and have pretty harsh recoil compared to other similar guns by major manufacturers. We have yet to have a single Kel-Tec model pass our required testing to be carried on duty as a back up gun, but we have broke a dozen or so in the process.
> 
> In the Taurus slim series the PT-740 is known to be much more problematic than the PT-709, primarily because of the over pressured .40 round. The PT-709 is a little more popular and it is a better gun. Taurus has spotty quality control but are getting better. I am not trying to pee in anyone's koolaid, but much better guns are available for just a little more money. I am not going to make a long list of guns I would rate much higher than those two, the choice is obviously yours, but I will offer up this advice; entry level "budget" products are fine for some things, but not for something that you may be betting your very life on.
> 
> My wife went through several guns in her hunt for a pistol she liked. She loved the size and feel of compacts, but HATED the sharp recoil that is inherent in the design. She loved the feel of some of the larger guns out there but did not want to drag the weight around with her all the time. In the end she settled on a compact single stack (the S&W Ladysmith 3914) with a little more heft and a larger slide. Recoil is soft, accuracy is very good, reliability is not a concern and it fits her hands well. But we bought and sold approx. 7 guns before we found that one. I immediately went out and bought two S&W 908's (same gun in value priced configuration) for my daughters. Then we had more daughters and I had to go buy more Smiths!


My wife's hasn't been shot a ton, but the only time it's failed was when I tried feeding it some 147 grain winchester HP's. It shoots well enough to keep everything on a paper plate at 50 yards. Given the staplegun trigger and the price, I'd say that's pretty damned good. In contrast to that, I shot a Bersa .45 that wouldn't hold 3" groups at I think it was 7 yards. Keltec never intended for one to shoot tens of thousands of rounds...and in all honesty, 99% of gun owners wouldn't even come close to wearing one out in a lifetime--even if the intended service life is only 10k(and I'm not saying it is, just tossing in a number). I doubt they'd wear one out if the service life was half that. They're not +p rated, and I'd bet on the use of it drastically shortening the life of the gun.

As far as the barrel breaking on a PF9, if it's made anything like the P11, then I'd say it was a defect in the steel.

My mother in law qualified(leo) on a range with about a dozen other people. She had a CZ75, there was one glock, and the rest were S&W autos. Her CZ was the _only_ gun to make it through without any malfunctions at all. Several of the S&W's had parts breakage and their owners had to finish with a loaner gun. Sidenote: apparently S&W auto failures were pretty common based on what the instructors told her, based on their experience. I have no idea on the models or used/new/LE trade in status, but apparently at least some of them were pretty close to the LE trade ins that were on the market at the time. The only reason I know that is because she'd been looking at them before purchasing the CZ and asked my opinion. I've seen just about every brand and model of popular, and some less popular, pistol fail in some manner. I've also seen defective guns(not cheap ones either, prices at the $900+ mark) brand new from the manufacturer.

I'll agree with you on Taurus, though I've had both good and bad experience with them personally. Horror stories of their customer service and "repairs" abound. That being said, they're decent guns if you don't get a lemon.

After having said the above, I want to clarify. I'm not championing Keltec nor am I saying anyone should buy one. I do think they are a very good gun given the price. I think many others are better overall, but may or may not be worth the price. On the other hand, some are utter junk and are best used as throwdowns or fishing weights rather than as a defensive tool.


----------



## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Guns like Kel-Tec are like knives by BudK; they are made using every measure possible to cut costs and maximize profit. And while they do intend to make a usable product, there is only so much you can do with low bid materials and low cost manufacturing. No one expects these types of guns to shoot 10,000+ rounds. But one would expect frames and slides not to crack under normal use, to have continuous issues with mag retention and to not have them fire if dropped on the ground. All of those are well know and documented issues Kel-Tec has had over the years (that they have no bothered to change). And while it is true that EVERY manufacturer is going to produce a bad gun from time to time, it's all in the numbers. S&W has indeed made some problematic guns, but they also have made probably 1,000 guns for every gun Kel-Tec has made. Statistically the problematic Smiths are rare while the problematic Kel-Tec's are common in comparison. That being said even a BudK knife will kill someone if you stab them with it. But how much use and abuse can it take before the blade breaks or it just won't hold and edge anymore. Which is why most people prefer a better made knife. 

I can only presume that these problem Smith & Wessons with failure your mentioned were the 1st gen Sigmas, which were definitely a smudge on an otherwise incredible lineage.


----------



## smaj100 (Oct 17, 2012)

Texasmama,

My wifes first gun was a hipoint 380 ( a giant brick), but it taught her how to clear a malfunction and shoot and control the gun. Once she felt she was ready or a daily carry we went to the store after shooting a few revolvers at the range of different folks. In all my years of shooting there are very few folks who if asked politely will not allow a new or fellow shooter to fire their weapons. I have even offered to give them a few bucks for the ammo. She wanted something lightweight and comfortable to shoot. We opted for Taurus ultralight 38+P, once we had she found the trigger and hammer both a little hard to squeeze and charge, so I took it back to the gunstore we purchased it from and for $35-50 had him change the springs and polish the trigger. This made the gun perfect for her, she can now pull the trigger without first having to pull the hammer back, and is deadly accurate. She loves it.

I'm very glad to hear that guy at the store was patient and offered some very good advice. While I can't speak for your husband, I too have fussed at my wife on more than one occasion for mishandling a weapon. As others have said it only takes one mistake to tragically alter your's and someone elses life.

I've seen more than one well trained solder, civilian alike have an accidental discharge and or accidentally shoot themselves in the leg or foot.

Keep charging ahead, if you take the course absorb all you can from it. If you can find a public range shoot as often as your budget allows as this will only make you better and more comfortable handling your weapon. Woman if trained well are often better shooters than men, there's a reason the Russians had so many woman snipers during WWII.


----------



## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

Shoot all you can afford to AND I suggest finding a range partner. Feedback from someone is good to get you running safer and keep you safer. It is to easy to develope bad habits by yourself. So with a partner you help keep each other on your toes by pointing out the little mistakes, I know it sounds weird to invite someone to complain to you about what you are doing but active critique can be a good thing. So long as everyone remembers it is to be helpful not demeening. 
So get a friend involved add another new shooter to the rolls and gain a training partner. Or befreind a skilled and knowledgeable shooter either way you both benefit as during teaching I often remind myself of basics I have started to let slip and no one is EVER too new to point out safety issues. Right is right. If your partner doesn't recognize this then switch partners.


----------



## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

Sentry18 said:


> Guns like Kel-Tec are like knives by BudK; they are made using every measure possible to cut costs and maximize profit. And while they do intend to make a usable product, there is only so much you can do with low bid materials and low cost manufacturing. No one expects these types of guns to shoot 10,000+ rounds. But one would expect frames and slides not to crack under normal use, to have continuous issues with mag retention and to not have them fire if dropped on the ground. All of those are well know and documented issues Kel-Tec has had over the years (that they have no bothered to change). And while it is true that EVERY manufacturer is going to produce a bad gun from time to time, it's all in the numbers. S&W has indeed made some problematic guns, but they also have made probably 1,000 guns for every gun Kel-Tec has made. Statistically the problematic Smiths are rare while the problematic Kel-Tec's are common in comparison. That being said even a BudK knife will kill someone if you stab them with it. But how much use and abuse can it take before the blade breaks or it just won't hold and edge anymore. Which is why most people prefer a better made knife.
> 
> I can only presume that these problem Smith & Wessons with failure your mentioned were the 1st gen Sigmas, which were definitely a smudge on an otherwise incredible lineage.


The smiths were either 59 series or 69 series or something very close. My mother in law wouldn't have recognized them if they hadn't been close to what she had been looking at. I don't recall which it was that was commonly available as PD trade ins at the time. From what she said, the people she was qualifying with were even less gun savvy than she was, so some of the malfunctions and breakage may have been attributable to defective user syndrome.

1st gen Sigmas were total crap. That lemon will haunt S&W forever.


----------

