# Just Thinking ?



## PopPop (Sep 14, 2010)

Well its a stormy morning here and that is making a for a slow day here at the homestead, so my mind is wandering a little. I have been thinking about my the direction of my preps and also the direction others are taking. We are blessed to be in an area with a long growing season, lots of fish and game and we have enough land to raise livestock, so that is the direction we are taking. We farm and preserve all that we can. We try to stock up on items that we cannot produce. Some call this prepping or survivalism, we call it self reliant. We have no intention of bugguing out and we have the means and determination to stand our ground. 
The thing that troubles me is why are people who could stand, planning on bugging out. I read about BOBS and BOVs and MAGs, etc. I know that apartment dwellers and people that live in the inner city face challenges that I dont but there are many suburbanites and rural families that would be better served with an attitude that focused on staying in place rather than bugging out.
Which would be better for most, a BOV or a tiller and gardening and preserving supplies? Listen I know the toys are more romantic and fun, but which way provides the best means of self reliance. What is better a BOB and a MBR or a full pantry and every storage space fully utilized? Are you really better served learning how to start a fire with a flint or learning how to can and dehydrate. Is your golly whopper survival combat knife going to serve you better than a drawer full of RADA knives and a hundred cans of food?
I do not mean to be critical of anyone and I do not think my is the only way. i just hope everyone considers the consequences of the plan they are working. I am worried that all of the BOVs and BOBs will be stopping off at places like mine with an empty belly and that will not work out well for anyone. If you have a yard of any size or you have friends with land think very hard about staying put and planning for self reliance. We face some hard times, but we do not have to face anarchy.


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## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

In my case, it's based on the situation. If the nuke plant 6 miles upwind from me should blow or some major flood comes my way, I'll be bugging out. Power outage, blizzard... I'm staying put.

SHTF or TEOTWAWKI, that's a tough call. Since my BOL is close, more secure, larger and has more tillable land then the homestead, I may go there but the biggest consideration will be security. If it's relatively quiet out there amongst the masses I'd stay put but if there's large roving groups with ill-will out there, I'd have to go to the BOL.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

I think security is the biggest reason people may be planning to bug out. Even if someone with a large suburban yard could grow a garden, they still have to protect it. 

Plus the things bczoom mentioned. It might depend what is nearby that could present dangers, as well as the type of disaster or situation. 

Even those of us who are planning to stay put should be running bug-out scenarios. No matter how safe and secure the location, there's always a chance things will go differently than we think. The likelihood of us having to bug out is slim, but still needs to be considered.

People in small towns and rural areas can possibly work together to protect their areas, but when people start getting more spread out, that becomes more difficult.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

I live on the edge of a fairly large city where looking around while standing on my deck with a burger-flipper in hand and burgers smokin' away on the BBQ I can see the control-tower of the international airport and watch the planes zipping up and down the runways.

While standing there, I can listen to the rumble of trains heading north-n-south down in a gully about 250 yards away from my feet. Just on the other side of those train tracks is a major north-south highway (3 lanes each direction) that transport trucks use to carry equipment, chemicals, food, etc.

A "small" accident at the airport could cause some troubles for those trucks and trains that are zipping by all day and all night. That "small" accident could start a fire that could head up the grassy-hill towards the single row of houses between me and the roads and tracks. That fire could carry ammonia fumes or other such stuff.

My plan is to BugIn primarily, but, those kinds of circumstances may force me to hook up the camper and GetOutOfDodge (GOOD) and stay out of the way of those who are trained to deal with such problems. By taking myself away from the problem, I allow the hazmat people room to move without tripping over my prone body ... ya know what I mean, eh?


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## sinbad (Oct 27, 2009)

I don't think those who have a BOB , a BOV, and a BOL plan to bug out as their 1st response to a disaster. Preparedness means that you have a plan A, a plan B , and maybe a plan C. So if you stay put and a messy situation becomes more messy , and looks like it isn't improving, it is then wise to think of other options, including bugging out.

Also, please keep in mind that a prepper should be an improvizer. So, a BOB is not necessarily devoted for one purpose of bugging out. It gives you the auurance of having all bases covered in a small package. 

A few years back when I was building the house in a town 15 miles from where I lived ( it is the town where I work ) , we visited the house and went shopping. When we eere thinking of travelling back it started raining bad. 

We went to our uncompleted house. It was made of concrete and basic structure was complete with roof and all. So, we went into a room and BOB or GHB with us into the house. Stuff in there was most helpful. I lit some cyalume and some candles and we "camped" there till rain stopped. 

So, a BOB/GHB is always a good thing to have on hand. You never know.


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

I think many of us already live in our BOLs :sssh: :ignore:

most of my BOB preps are really for my vehicles for when I'm NOT at home & want to *get back safely* :beercheer:


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## unclebob (May 14, 2010)

PopPop said:


> Well its a stormy morning here and that is making a for a slow day here at the homestead, so my mind is wandering a little. I have been thinking about my the direction of my preps and also the direction others are taking. We are blessed to be in an area with a long growing season, lots of fish and game and we have enough land to raise livestock, so that is the direction we are taking. We farm and preserve all that we can. We try to stock up on items that we cannot produce. Some call this prepping or survivalism, we call it self reliant. We have no intention of bugguing out and we have the means and determination to stand our ground.
> The thing that troubles me is why are people who could stand, planning on bugging out. I read about BOBS and BOVs and MAGs, etc. I know that apartment dwellers and people that live in the inner city face challenges that I dont but there are many suburbanites and rural families that would be better served with an attitude that focused on staying in place rather than bugging out.
> Which would be better for most, a BOV or a tiller and gardening and preserving supplies? Listen I know the toys are more romantic and fun, but which way provides the best means of self reliance. What is better a BOB and a MBR or a full pantry and every storage space fully utilized? Are you really better served learning how to start a fire with a flint or learning how to can and dehydrate. Is your golly whopper survival combat knife going to serve you better than a drawer full of RADA knives and a hundred cans of food?
> I do not mean to be critical of anyone and I do not think my is the only way. i just hope everyone considers the consequences of the plan they are working. I am worried that all of the BOVs and BOBs will be stopping off at places like mine with an empty belly and that will not work out well for anyone. If you have a yard of any size or you have friends with land think very hard about staying put and planning for self reliance. We face some hard times, but we do not have to face anarchy.


Many wise things here. I feel much the same way and plan to stay on my own property that I am setting up for self reliance.

As far as the big bug out thing, it is the only option for many in and near the cities. If there is a national level emergancy anarchy will start in days if not even a week.
Early on people that try to ride it out will most likely be met with police and worse when trying to proactivly protect their own property let alone their gardens. Police will ride around and show up after the crimes and write reports if they are still on duty.

The preperation to get out of the way is a realistic safe option as opossed to being in the war zone that may erupt in the weeks to follow. I might add that people that are making these plans don't want to BO they feel its the safest option for their situation.

Heck as a guy in the country, I would love for them to stay put and take out the trash but I understand the need to plan for the best option for their family


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## semperscott (Nov 7, 2010)

At this time should SHTF I will be on foot with my BOB heading to a spot in the woods that I have alread scouted out. It is 5,000 acres heavily wooded. 

I am currently looking for some land and once purchased it will be my permanet residence as well as my BOL. I know the area I am looking in and there is a small Corps of Engineers campground in the area that will be the rally point for family and friends. The only large to med size town is over and hour away and the small towns closer are primarily country/rural folk who are for the most part self reliant.


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## unclebob (May 14, 2010)

The_Blob said:


> I think many of us already live in our BOLs :sssh: :ignore:
> 
> most of my BOB preps are really for my vehicles for when I'm NOT at home & want to *get back safely* :beercheer:


You said it
My BOV is to get home and also if I have to make a run to pick up a family member very near a big city.


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## Clarice (Aug 19, 2010)

We have talked of bugging out but cannot afford another home. My biggest worry is we live on a busy state hwy. We have now cleared all around the property so there is no way anyone could sneak up without the fear of being seen. But it still bothers me.


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## PopPop (Sep 14, 2010)

Good comments! After making this morning's post, I went out to the shop and worked on my BOV. It is a 1970 cheverolet 4x4 flat bed with a 50 gal auxillary fuel tank. I then sharpened my Rat7 and my Cold Steel R1 Classic knives and then loaded up a hundred rounds of .308. Yep, I have a Bug Out Plan! I just know that for most people, myself included, leaving my well stocked home is an act of desparation. My concern is that too many have decided to prep along the lines of Bugging Out first. I would bet that a BOL is a fantasy for most. If I were to bug out, I would just be another refugee with some cool stuff.


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## CulexPipiens (Nov 17, 2010)

I've thought about BOL.. including the "deep in the woods" and some rural areas. Some problems I see if SHTF is that others may have thought of the same location(s) setting up for confrontations at a minimum and "king of the hill" battles as a possibility. I've also thought about buying some acreage in a rural area... but unless you can establish some type of presenece on it ahead of time... I wonder what the locals will think when I show up and appear to be a squatter trying to live there. If it is that bad, do you think a "deed" to the land is going to really make a difference? You'll just be seen as a competitor for resources. 

As a result I'm working on some possible BOLs where I am already known and hopefully will have a pre-arranged agreement in place prior to needing to move there. Not necessarily a MAG but at least an acceptance of my presence. If bugging out becomes necessary it will be stressful enough with all the unknowns to have an uncertain or questionable destinations in mind.


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## Jason (Jul 25, 2009)

We plan on staying put unless there is absolutely no way that can happen. We have acreage, a few animals, and buildings and equipment that we can use to remain successful. 

We are learning new skills all the time. Just today my wife tried canning meat for the first time-she's got 3 pints of venison boiling away as I type this. Sure it's not much but it's an experiment-a first attempt. Also, she butchered our Boer goat at the same time she cut up her deer so we had goat for dinner tonight-another first for us. Turns out it's really good.

We're stocking up on stuff as we can afford it, and we're balancing food with other items as money allows. To get back on point, though, we'd really be much better off staying put than hitting the road.


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

As others have said, we're not going anywhere except in a really dire circumstance. My biggest concern is how to work, patrol and protect 10 acres of animals and garden with only 2 of us. :dunno: We do have another place to go and have begun to stash some supplies there but we are located at what we hope is our BOL.


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## Ponce (May 3, 2009)

Clarice? do a google search for "Wireless drive way alarm", I have two recievers and eleven senders that protects my property.

Ten years ago I knew what was going to happen and the first thing that I did was to move out of CA and into the mountains of OR, in those ten years I have been getting ready in many ways and lucky for me I had the money to do it with.

One of this days I'll write about the alarm system that I have and about what you can do.


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## Clarice (Aug 19, 2010)

Thanks for the information Ponce, I'll look it up right away.


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## azurevirus (Jan 20, 2009)

*Bugging out*

I agree with Sinbad, I hope to stay put in a bad scenario..but I always have a plan two or three..just in case


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## goodmedivice (May 7, 2010)

"BOBS and BOVs and MAGs, " Can someone post me a link with these acronyms spelled out al;so what is TIWAN...??


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f45/faq-standard-acronyms-2285/

As Naekid would say: ask and you shall receive.


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## tac803 (Nov 21, 2010)

In my case, bugging out is a situation of last resort. Some family members would be hard pressed to travel great distances, so staying put it the better option for most scenarios. That being said, there are situations that would necessitate leaving for points elsewhere. I'm fortunate in that I live in a suburban community that is populated with retired LE, military, and other responsible folks that pull together when things get tough. Keeping all options open is important. It's also important to realize when the time has come to hunker down or get out of dodge...:usaflag:


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## azurevirus (Jan 20, 2009)

*Just thinking*

The one thing that does bother me about bugging in or staying in place in a major event is soon..ppl will know how prepared you have been..when they are crying hunger and your not..would tend to raise an eyerbrow or two to say the least..also..this house of mine is a wood house and no matter how well I "secure" it..its only a matter of time before some desperate "citizens" gain entry one way or another..and, thus being wood..it, I imagine would only take a couple well placed molotov cocktails to run me out and get killed or worse..only silver lining would be most if not all the vittles would go up with the house so the attackers would get a minimum if any..guess thats a couple of things


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## dawnwinds58 (Jul 12, 2010)

I have too much family to bug out, and I am flat too old to start over. I am however dug in like a tick on a hound dog. The place looks like you dropped a bomb in a wrecking yard. There are usually 4 or 5 ancient vehicles and assorted pieces of paint faded, "rustic looking" old pieces of farm equipment all over. What seems to go without notice is the fact, they all work. We have small livestock, poultry, and a garden every year. There's a 5000w generator sitting in a shed that looks as if it hasn't run in years, which works. We have quite a range of old muzzle loaders here, crossbows, fishing gear, and even an old boat with stadium seats set up for us...ahem...taller people. Nothing looks top of the line or speaks of money. Before the city mobs hit anywhere near us they have to find us. 

We are 10 miles out off a back road that is not a main through way to any important place. The geology of the area strangely between fault lines,so if anything "rocks" we float it out. There are branches of two different rivers less than 5 miles either direction and cave structures on both in the river banks. There is game galore and several cattle ranches in the area. The only real issues we would have is a natural gas pipeline about a quarter mile away, a rich city guy who doesn't know how to live "country" a half mile away, and a couple of nuclear power plants that could possibly go "pop." Neither of these are local, one being in the western part of the state, and the other in the state below us, but wind patterns could shift something our way. That would have to be considered. 

Summer we would have problems and winter we wouldn't. I watch weather and patterns regularly and have for years. I know this place, how the rain patterns run, when it gets warm enough for direct planting, and when the rain drys up and heat becomes an issue. Right now we are 11 degrees, but it is the wind chill which is the issue. We can gust up to 60mph around here at times. Last night it was 27mph with a windchill of -9. Summer can see heat in the 102 index and 98% humidity. Desert and arctic people, get clothes ready for both. 

Get cloth, needles, thread, and what you need to cloth your group as well. Get those "decorative" snowshoes on the wall, and do some research how they wear clothes in a desert to protect from the sun, and WHY they do it that way. While you have the chance, have the internet, it is you best tool. 


Can you build a smokehouse to keep you meat? Do you even know what a hickory tree looks like? What native plants provide Vitamin C ? It isn't like you would run to WalMart for 'One-a-Day's" and orange juice to keep you from getting scurvy, and natural foods, grown foods, ARE NOT vitamin enhanced like you are used to. Ever stored ice in the winter for summer use? Know how to build an ice house and keep it if you tried? What are the concepts of a root cellar? What vegetables can be stored long term and what can or cannot be stored in the same environment? 

Without store deliveries of salt, sugar, coffee, tea, spices, and oils, how do you cope and supply what you need? Can you make butter if you need to? Know how? Can you render lard from a hog? Do you know what type of canning you need for meat, and what for vegetables? Where will you get those jars any way? See what I mean?

A single person, or even a few could survivie. But talking about several families of kids and grandkids, it takes a community to survivie, and those people must be willing to work and defend their resources. No free rides if you want to eat through the winter. THAT is the reality, and this ain't camping. 

It is 100% change of life and living requirements you have to get used to and accept the fact there won't be a McDonald's to run to for a burger and fries. The previously mentioned meal will require a butchered cow and you grind the meat, a potato crop planted, protected from potato beetles, dug, cured, and stored, lard for frying so a butchered hog and rendered lard, a lettuce, tomato, and cucumber crop, aka pickles AND knowing how to can dill ones which means growing the dill, drying and storing it, and making the vinegar as well. Don't forget eggs and oil for mayonaise so the chickens count too. Do NOT ask for catsup on those fries unless you made some, which does contain brown sugar so either a sugar cane or sugar beet crop is also in there, AND knowing how to process them. Prepare yes, but train, and train others to know what you know. Don't do all this for your loved ones, then die and take the knowledge of how to survive with you.

Ok, a book to help, John and Sally Seymour, Farming for Self-Sufficiency:
Independence on a 5-Acre Farm. Get it and read it. It can be adjusted to locations and needs. But you need a "manual" to live AFTER eveything goes to hell in a handbasket. Use the internet to find things you need, say a way to make a wringer washer bicycle powered. Now that was a handy thing to find. I've done the "grape stomp" in a bath tub and it truly sucks. Online I found how to build a root cellar around your well using the well pipe as a way to help with the cooling. I'm collecting old oil and kerosene lamps and found the cheap gallons of olive oil will burn nicely with extra air supply to the tanks. I even found a pattern for a lard lamp. I'm pretty sure that one will smoke like crazy so my husband is working on modifying it with a glass chimney to catch soot, which by the way, is WHY there are chimneys as well as to keep a breeze from putting out your light. I am buying wick and finding out how to make it myself out of old cotton clothes.

Trust me, no one is completely prepared for every consequence.


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## Clarice (Aug 19, 2010)

You brought out some good points, Dawnwind, none of my family is interested in learning these things. They don't believe the balloon will go up. I am writing every process down and have printed valuable information from the internet, this is all kept in a large 3 ring binder with index tabs. Hopefully I will be around to help in the beginning, but at 65 can't be too sure.


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## Ponce (May 3, 2009)

The trick to feeling safe is knowing where they are there BEFORE they attack you........and that way if you have a pre-attack plan you can then implement it.

Another way to do it with loud sound makers that they will set off when approaching your home and that way they would know that you are not a "soft target".

Also to have a inner fence inside of your outer fence that would be ten feet wide and all the way around your home......this ten feet "death zone" would be booby trap in many different ways.

Be sure to have a pre dug hole where to put in the bodies.


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## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

azurevirus said:


> The one thing that does bother me about bugging in or staying in place in a major event is soon..ppl will know how prepared you have been..when they are crying hunger and your not..would tend to raise an eyerbrow or two to say the least..also..this house of mine is a wood house and no matter how well I "secure" it..its only a matter of time before some desperate "citizens" gain entry one way or another..and, thus being wood..it, I imagine would only take a couple well placed molotov cocktails to run me out and get killed or worse..only silver lining would be most if not all the vittles would go up with the house so the attackers would get a minimum if any..guess thats a couple of things


I was just discussing with husband if gubermint comes giving rations (more likely NOT), take them and at least play the part.

I really don't think there will be any vans of food patrolling the suburbs.


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## piglett (Dec 10, 2010)

dawnwinds58 said:


> I have too much family to bug out, and I am f
> A single person, or even a few could survivie. But talking about several families of kids and grandkids, it takes a community to survivie, and those people must be willing to work and defend their resources. No free rides if you want to eat through the winter. THAT is the reality, and this ain't camping.


yup i would think a group of about 20 adults would be about the size you would want (but i could be wrong) some can be off fishing, others out hunting, others plowing ,tilling ect. the kids will be good for helping bring in all the firewood that will be needed.



dawnwinds58 said:


> Ok, a book to help, John and Sally Seymour, Farming for Self-Sufficiency:
> Independence on a 5-Acre Farm. Get it and read it. It can be adjusted to locations and needs. But you need a "manual" to live AFTER eveything goes to hell in a handbasket. Trust me, no one is completely prepared for every consequence.


i have the book Farming for Self-Sufficiency on it's way from Amazon 
it was $11.49 with shipping so i can work with that price:congrat:

I also got the following 
Wild Edible Plants of New England: A Field Guide, Including Poisonous Plants Often Encountered used $14.49 shipped to my door &
Foraging New England: Finding, Identifying, and Preparing Edible Wild Foods and Medicinal Plants from Maine to Connecticut it was $13.98 with shipping.

your rite on the money Dawnwinds get these N O W while you still have the internet to help you. if the SHTF then i guess we will all figure out really quickly if we do or don't have the rite things.

piglett


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## dawnwinds58 (Jul 12, 2010)

Just remember, if a community starts bartering and trading it won't take long for those "superiority complexes" to pop up. What is acquired is community owned and passed out to meet the needs of that "village" so no one does without what they need. No person should be better or worse off than anyone else. You won't be rich, but needs will be met. If a roof goes down, all help to fix it. If it is time to hay, everyone capable assists or supports as it benefits all. If you like butter on your bread, it just makes sense to be a part of what keeps those cows going. Like blackberry jam? Picking time will come even if you are one of the egg raisers. Oh, and one favorite point in that book I love, get paired cows for milk. Put both calves on one to feed them and milk the other. Loved that one as I have bottle fed a rioting crowd of 22 calves after being taken off their mothers in a dairy. It ain't easy. I like the idea of calves being raised BY cows rather than herded into a pen and orphaned. Makes for better tempered cows. Chickens are the same. Pick your best "broody" hens for mothering all the eggs you want to hatch. Incubators didn't come first, and hens run on "chicken feed" rather than electricity.

All are connected by common needs and problems. It's the way it USED to be before mass production and city people who claimed, "Why should I care about a dairy or a chicken farmer? I get my eggs and milk from the grocery store!" Honest *****, they said it on TV!! My kids have been butchering meat and skinning deer since they were old enough to understand to eat meat means something must die. How that death is done should be humane, quick, neat, and with respect for the life taken for your survival. No cruelty, no shabby work. Do it right, or be a vegetarian.


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

JayJay said:


> I was just discussing with husband *if gubermint comes giving rations* (more likely NOT), take them and at least play the part.
> 
> I really don't think there will be any vans of food patrolling the suburbs.


 remember, before the government can give anything away, they have to take it from someone else, ther first line of business will probably be to collect all the food for redistribution


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## rflood (Aug 19, 2010)

My wife and I are looking at bugging in at our current location right now, but are looking at moving to a place which is going to afford us an opportunity to be away from large cities but still keep us in range of commuting to work. Right now I am looking at 3 properties that are roughly 30-40 miles from the major city here and also away from the nuke plants. They are 5, 8 and 25 acres that will give us a place to really build in some self sufficiency, right now we could stay where we are short term but couldn't manage to keep it long term. That book Farming For Self Sufficiency is going to be on my Christmas list.


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## dawnwinds58 (Jul 12, 2010)

*Shared Information*

I have loaded all I could of what I have collected in an album on my Imageevent site. This includes eBook copies of the Foxfires I could find. Right click is NOT disabled so you can save copies to your own computers to pront out. Some text files will have to be matched up with the picture files because they would not load in order. This is the link. Share what you know so more may take advantage of the information.

Modern Pioneer


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## worldengineer (Sep 20, 2010)

rflood said:


> My wife and I are looking at bugging in at our current location right now, but are looking at moving to a place which is going to afford us an opportunity to be away from large cities but still keep us in range of commuting to work. Right now I am looking at 3 properties that are roughly 30-40 miles from the major city here and also away from the nuke plants. They are 5, 8 and 25 acres that will give us a place to really build in some self sufficiency, right now we could stay where we are short term but couldn't manage to keep it long term. That book Farming For Self Sufficiency is going to be on my Christmas list.


I have always prefered 20 acres. Gives you enough land to grow, cut wood, and recreate on. Any less and I feel like I don't have enough, and anymore is hard to manage. Though its just my opinion. A nice 1 acre garden if tended all year can produce food for 4 or 5 months of storage while supplimenting your daily food. Depending on how you eat.


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