# Laid Off



## pixieduster

Today my husband tells me his brother got laid off. A well educated man who creates (created) educational software. BIL says that cuts due to Obama has now taken his job. I said, Wait a minute! My BIL who voted for Obama twice now has no job and crying because he is not prepared for any of what's to come? I feel he has many things to learn. Told DH that its only the tip of the iceberg and I wish BIL was receptive to hear me out about being prepared for hard times. He has a wife and little girl who seem to all live in a fantasy world. Now I don't want to see them have a ruff time, but I'm wondering if maybe sometimes its not a necessary evil in order to open ones eyes. My family is very different. We all prep in some way and have almost unspoken plans, rules, skill sets and strengths. We know each others weaknesses which is just as important to planning. I feel a sense of comfort in knowing we have "insurance". So I'm thinking, what now? He gets unemployment or drains retirement while looking and hoping to get a job?


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## jsriley5

hipe he is smart enough to prep now instead of blowing all he has left trying to maintain his lifestyle as he has come accustomed to. Might be a good time to at least suggest gardening to fill his time till he gets a new job. teach him some canning maybe give him a fighting chance at least


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## DocDiesel

There are none so deaf, as those who refuse to listen...


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## Bobbb

I'm sorry that your BIL is hurting and because I don't know him I can say the following - in the grand scheme of things, it's a good thing that as an Obama voter he is feeling the consequences of his vote and the most unjust situations are lay-offs which fall on people who didn't vote for Obama and actually tried to fix the problem, especially when Obama-voting co-workers are spared the axe.

When you wrote "I wish BIL was receptive" did you mean in the present or the past tense. If you had tried to broach this subject with him in the past and he rebuffed you, then I don't know what kind words I can say to make you feel better other than you tried and his ears were closed. If the present, then I'd still give it a shot because the advice you could give him could probably help in reducing his living expenses as he trades increased time of preparation for lower costs - more cooking and canning will mean less spent on eating out, quick meals, etc.

I also agree with you that this might be a necessary condition. Lots of people suffer from normalcy bias - things are normal today so they will always be normal and the bad things always happen to everyone else. The likely outcome here is that this event will push him onto the welfare machinery that Obama keeps expanding and likely make him thankful for the "Caring" that Obama shows him instead of focusing on how Obama pushed this situation onto him. Pushed deeper into the comforting bosum of Obama's Marxism.


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## mojo4

I kinda feel bad for him but supporting an obviously anti business man should have consequenses. Maybe his eyes are open now but i feel its too late to correct our nations course without disaster. Nope, we had our chance to turn away but instead its full speed ahead for disaster.


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## mma800

Always sad to hear of another hard working American losing their job. Whether your BIL preps or not, he still got his butt to work everyday. That cannot be said for a lot of others. Unfortunately, things will probably get worse before they get better (thanks mr. President!)
Maybe this wil be bil's wake up call to live simply and self sufficiently.


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## cnsper

He may not be willing to prep but there are things you can show him like how, what to purchase and cook to save money. Have him cook up a chicken and then show him how to make a soup with the left overs and carcass. It may not be prepping but it is a start.


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## Dakine

I hope BIL wakes up, but I have a hard time believing that it will happen. This is the mindset that these people have (as I've observed in CA)

1. It's not fair, it shouldn't have happened to me, at least I can rely on the gov't to help me. (these are people who make $40k a year and bought million dollar houses)
2. it's all the republicans fault because they block all of the things democrats want to do which would fix our economy.
3. all we need to do is make everything union and put up massive protection tariffs and import taxes and we can save all of the american jobs.


I could go on... and these aren't my opinions, this is what I really hear from the left day in and day out, they truly believe this stuff. 

back to the BIL, they might cut back, but if he doesn't find some comparable work soon, his family is going to be in trouble, and they honestly won't have the first clue why.


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## jsriley5

OH the other option you have is to do the whole neener nneener I told you so thing  So he's had a minute for it to set in good what has he determined to do ?


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## ComputerGuy

I hope a bunch of freaking people wake up and learn that those who are in the left, socialists, unionists, etc DO NOT have their best intentions at heart. The play to Wall Street and get more money through tactics learned from crooks. Just ask the auto manufacturers, Hostess, etc.

Sorry for you BL. I am sure there are jobs out there, but not paying the wages he is probably used too


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## Sentry18

While I do not know him; if he follows the general pattern of the American sheeple he will probably become part of the 47% receiving entitlements. Then he will simply be another dependent of Obama and love him even more for it. Like how some women (and men) cling to an abusive husband (or wife).

_Why do you keep receiving entitlements when it's killing you and your country!? (Insert tears here) But, but, but Obama loves me... He loves me... Doesn't he?_


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## Lake Windsong

Just for a bit of perspective, I was laid off while Bush was president. Should I blame him? Now I have a job with better pay and benefits. Should I thank Obama? People get laid off, people get new jobs.


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## DJgang

Lake Windsong said:


> Just for a bit of perspective, I was laid off while Bush was president. Should I blame him? Now I have a job with better pay and benefits. Should I thank Obama? People get laid off, people get new jobs.


I got laid off in 1996. I did not see it coming at all ... It was the most depressing, most out of control feeling that I've ever had.... We were in the middle of building a house! . But I got a job, lot less pay, that I learned skills that needless did I know, would be beneficial to owning our own business. Seems like we don't hear enough of the ....I got laid and things are better stories...so Ive added mine to Lake's!

Another door will open for your brother. Hopefully he will be willing to research and see what may have happened with this job, and he may now be able to find something that will be more productive for his family in the future. Sometimes when we get comfortable with things in life, something happens and it usually happens for a reason.....which is a good thing. Things are happening in our society for a reason, we just got to hang on and let it all pan out, hindsight will be 20/20 and hopefully we will all live to see it.


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## Sentry18

> Just for a bit of perspective, I was laid off while Bush was president. Should I blame him? Now I have a job with better pay and benefits. Should I thank Obama? People get laid off, people get new jobs.


I don't know. Did you lose your job as a direct and irrefutable result of something the President Bush did that was bad for America? Because if so then yes, you should blame him. Did you get your new job because of something that Obama did specifically to create that job for you? If so then yes, you should thank him. There is a huge difference between losing your job over how the business operates, market fluctuations, etc. and losing your job because a president created policies that put A LOT of people out of work because he just could not foresee the consequences of his actions. Even though he was repeatedly warned that people would lose their jobs.


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## Lake Windsong

My prepper mentality isn't going to allow me to blame or thank anyone. All part of that 'self-reliance' part of the way I think.


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## Bobbb

Lake Windsong said:


> My prepper mentality isn't going to allow me to blame or thank anyone. All part of that 'self-reliance' part of the way I think.


Nice way to avoid dealing with the issue that you raised. Wouldn't the more honorable course be to acknowledge Sentry18's point as being correct and then falling back to what you wrote?


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## Lake Windsong

Bobbb said:


> Nice way to avoid dealing with the issue that you raised. Wouldn't the more honorable course be to acknowledge Sentry18's point as being correct and then falling back to what you wrote?


I didn't avoid an issue. Who is president of the US when I lose or get a job is a nonissue. That's the point I was making. Gaa.


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## NaeKid

I have been "laid off" many times in my history of working which goes back 30+ years, but, I have never been without work. Looking outside your "career" could find work that you could do easily enough to continue bringing the coin home.

I was a full-time hardware / software / networking computer technician - when the company I worked for went belly-up, I started a business doing courier-work - delivering HVAC equipment. Because of that business that I ran, I became a manager of a metal-fabrication shop. When the owners of that business sold out, I moved on to another metal-fabrication shop ... and if something happens and I no longer have a job there, I can always fall back onto my own metal fabrication skills and start up another business making metal artwork fulltime (part-time right now).

Tools and knowledge together with a willingness to get dirty will always put coin in the pocket.


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## Bobbb

Lake Windsong said:


> I didn't avoid an issue. Who is president of the US when I lose or get a job is a nonissue. That's the point I was making. Gaa.


It's a complete avoidance of the issue. Sentry18 rebutted your position, convincingly I might add, and you avoiding acknowledging, never mind contesting, his comment. You just pretended it didn't exist. That's avoidance.


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## Lake Windsong

I willingly acknowledge that I will now avoid all posts made by Bobbb. *ignore* 

Back to prepping.


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## Bobbb

I suppose that Obama wasn't to blame for oil workers in the Gulf being laid off due to his policy of restricting oil drilling in the Gulf. Those workers were laid off because no one in the world wants to buy oil, or something, and political decisions have no effect, absolutely no effect, on the job market. Obama himself has stated that his first priority was not job creation or creating better economic conditions, that he wanted to make the US more "fair." As Sentry18 pointed out there are business cycles and randomness at work alongside the consequences which develop from governmental policies which harm the economy. Obama has been a master at harming the economy and the job losses due to his policies are growing in number. To close you eyes to this and simply believe that Obama has no effect on the labor market is wishful thinking.


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## Dakine

Lake Windsong said:


> I didn't avoid an issue. Who is president of the US when I lose or get a job is a nonissue. That's the point I was making. Gaa.


I agree with you in that when I was laid off, Clinton didn't send me a postcard "Dak... you gotta go!" It was a company who had lost their contract, and in fact, I knew that when I took the job and its actually WHY I took their job, they were under contract to provide services until the last day and there were cash rewards for staying the last year, so that helped put money in my pocket when I wasn't really doing anything else at the time anyway.

with that said, I also agree with Sentry. While Bush or Obama or whomever may not have directly caused someone's job to be lost, the policies they support, the presidential decrees and directives they support, and the bills they will or will not sign can have a huge impact on jobs.

I dont know if you're an Obama supporter or not, so please dont read too much into this, it's just recent so I recall it. Example: Obama saves union jobs by bailing out GM, however non union workers were terminated, so I think it's fair to say that those jobs were lost directly to the policy of the administration. (same argument could be made that if he had not intervened ALL of those union jobs would have been lost under restructuring, and that simply would not do with organized labor being a big contributor so... anyway lol)

Solyndra would be another example of jobs that weren't lost (yet) however the taxes spent on rewarding campaign contributors is a fraud and to some extent jeopardizes everyone's jobs as high restrictive taxes have a negative impact on all businesses and the states because higher taxes have been proven to lead to lower tax dollars collected.

Just because Obama doesn't directly cause someone to lose their job, his policies can be toxic to the businesses and customers and that can have deep influence on the employees. See what I mean?


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## squshnut

be prepared to protect yourself and your family from his entilement attitudes. and other hand be prepared to figure out what your BIL can contribute.
It can go either way. Good bad and Ugly.


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## partdeux

Advice for your BIL, beyond stop being an effin idiot...


Retirement money is NOT to be touched for any reason at all... NONE! If he can't pay the bills on unemployment, it's only stuff. Stuff that can be replaced later.


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## Viking

Lake Windsong said:


> Just for a bit of perspective, I was laid off while Bush was president. Should I blame him? Now I have a job with better pay and benefits. Should I thank Obama? People get laid off, people get new jobs.


Thing is there are businesses cutting back hours, and more than likely jobs, due to Obama Care. So the reality is that some lay offs can and will be attributed directly to actions that have been initiated by Obama. Bush allowed things to happen to the economy which may have indirectly led to your lay off, makes him still culpable just the same and that's why all the "It's all Bush's fault." is brought up frequently.


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## Grimm

My DH has had it hard job wise since July. Because of lay offs and budget cuts he has been able to work but part time. It seems we have gotten more prepping done during this time of tight purse strings than we have when he was working full time. Now that he has full time hours again we will continue to live on air only spending on Christmas for Roo and on preps. It is nice knowing we have plenty for the hard times and can add to our stores during the good.

Show your BIL that he has to think of his little girl before getting that new TV or smartphone. (examples of foolish spending)


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## pixieduster

Lake Windsong said:


> Just for a bit of perspective, I was laid off while Bush was president. Should I blame him? Now I have a job with better pay and benefits. Should I thank Obama? People get laid off, people get new jobs.


I agree. He says he was told he was being laid off due to Obama cuts. :dunno:


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## pixieduster

partdeux said:


> Advice for your BIL, beyond stop being an effin idiot...
> 
> Retirement money is NOT to be touched for any reason at all... NONE! If he can't pay the bills on unemployment, it's only stuff. Stuff that can be replaced later.


Boy don't I know it. He didn't say that's what he is going to do. I was prospecting what he may have to do. With nothing to fall back on (preps) , where else ya gunna pull from? They don't garden, thrift store, make meals at home, etc. I see a hard road ahead and lessons to be learned.


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## Erick3758

Almost 2 years ago i lost my job at a coal burning powerplant.the company made the decision a year before that to close.everyone there knew how Obama felt about coal.all of the policies that contributed to us closing were all in place when the dictator was elected.this plant is located in upstate New York.it was the liberals that had very strict guidelines in place then the bottom fell out of the natural gas market with the marcellous shale.i have been working in the gas drilling for a while now.thing worked out very well for us.my wife was able to take the volunteer severance from Lockheed .she has plenty of time to home school the kids now.we almost relocated to another powerplant the company owned.it was a hard decision.instead we paid most everything off except the house. And did the uncomfortable thing.look at a new industry.there are always options for people that are willing to work.


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## Lake Windsong

pixieduster said:


> Boy don't I know it. He didn't say that's what he is going to do. I was prospecting what he may have to do. With nothing to fall back on (preps) , where else ya gunna pull from? They don't garden, thrift store, make meals at home, etc. I see a hard road ahead and lessons to be learned.


Anyone in the family being without a job during the holidays can be rough, and can make extended family get togethers awkward, but can be a good time to count blessings and realize what's really important. Do they live close by? Maybe his wife and girl would be interested in an afternoon together making homemade Christmas presents, simple cookies made from basic preps, or a joint grocery shopping trip with you gently pointing out frugal shopping strategies. If the daughter is overhearing worried conversations, it might help her feel a little more at ease. And might open the wife's eyes to the benefits of prepping.


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## pixieduster

Lake Windsong said:


> Anyone in the family being without a job during the holidays can be rough, and can make extended family get togethers awkward, but can be a good time to count blessings and realize what's really important. Do they live close by? Maybe his wife and girl would be interested in an afternoon together making homemade Christmas presents, simple cookies made from basic preps, or a joint grocery shopping trip with you gently pointing out frugal shopping strategies. If the daughter is overhearing worried conversations, it might help her feel a little more at ease. And might open the wife's eyes to the benefits of prepping.


They are eight hours away. My husband and I are the odd balls, but only in his family. We don't make photo christmas cards and send to over 200 people. We don't buy every person imaginable a present or gift card. I do make small food baskets for close family. Every year is a diffeeent theme. Italian with canned roma tomatoes, pasta and olive oil infused with garlic. (You get the idea). So the BIL and his wife may feel uncomfortable. Dunno. Either way we are extending arms and emotional support. I'm not feeling sorry for him, I don't look down on him for making poor choices. But I do think this may be a healthy growing pain.


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## Dakine

Lake Windsong said:


> Anyone in the family being without a job during the holidays can be rough, and can make extended family get togethers awkward, but can be a good time to count blessings and realize what's really important. Do they live close by? Maybe his wife and girl would be interested in an afternoon together making homemade Christmas presents, simple cookies made from basic preps, or a joint grocery shopping trip with you gently pointing out frugal shopping strategies. If the daughter is overhearing worried conversations, it might help her feel a little more at ease. And might open the wife's eyes to the benefits of prepping.


Not only that but you can introduce them to the notion that prepping isn't about zombies, that's sideshow BS for TV and giggles on the internet. It's about being ready for the unexpected and being laid off can be very unexpected sometimes. (although the shambling undead are going to be very unexpected for most people, not me though, cuz I prep!!! :laugh:

I know there's a .pdf out there that was a guideline for preparing food storage the way Mormons do, where you buy things you use, and use what you buy, and that guideline was showing how very economically increase your overall food preps over the course of a year instead of going broke doing it all at once. It was a 52 week plan and it was really well thought out and documented, but I cant find it anywhere now and all of the sites that I tried to pull up that looked like they were what I was looking for are no longer available 

The closest I could find is this site, which only lists a 4 week plan on spending $10 a week, same concept but a lot less specific and granular on how the whole thing comes together. http://lds.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/hagan59.html


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## Lake Windsong

pixieduster said:


> They are eight hours away. My husband and I are the odd balls, but only in his family. We don't make photo christmas cards and send to over 200 people. We don't buy every person imaginable a present or gift card. I do make small food baskets for close family. Every year is a diffeeent theme. Italian with canned roma tomatoes, pasta and olive oil infused with garlic. (You get the idea). So the BIL and his wife may feel uncomfortable. Dunno. Either way we are extending arms and emotional support. I'm not feeling sorry for him, I don't look down on him for making poor choices. But I do think this may be a healthy growing pain.


I understand. I have a relative that lives some distance away and sometimes ends up in financial trouble (bad decisions or just the way things go), and any time I've extended offers for a hand up instead of a handout I'm met with strange looks or excuses. You do what you can. Hope the links in the pm's help, for the little girl's sake, anyway.


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## jsriley5

Dakine said:


> I know there's a .pdf out there that was a guideline for preparing food storage the way Mormons do, where you buy things you use, and use what you buy, and that guideline was showing how very economically increase your overall food preps over the course of a year instead of going broke doing it all at once. It was a 52 week plan and it was really well thought out and documented, but I cant find it anywhere now and all of the sites that I tried to pull up that looked like they were what I was looking for are no longer available


Thats going to be an issue as described they don't make meals at home, And the LDS sites don't have any descriptions for canning big macs and fries  Gonna have to start the tutorial a lil bit more basic than that for them it would seem. Gotta learn to cook the stuff before it becomes what you eat and then store what you eat. They really need to wake up and go whole hog learning how to restructure their life and learn from those that are offering. Have no idea how likely that is but it is whats gonna happen or they will go dead broke fast paying 30dollars plus for meals not prepared at home.


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## Dakine

jsriley5 said:


> *Thats going to be an issue as described they don't make meals at home, And the LDS sites don't have any descriptions for canning big macs and fries * Gonna have to start the tutorial a lil bit more basic than that for them it would seem. Gotta learn to cook the stuff before it becomes what you eat and then store what you eat. They really need to wake up and go whole hog learning how to restructure their life and learn from those that are offering. Have no idea how likely that is but it is whats gonna happen or they will go dead broke fast paying 30dollars plus for meals not prepared at home.


OMG! that cracked me up, nice one!!! :laugh:


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## DethAngel

pixieduster said:


> Today my husband tells me his brother got laid off. A well educated man who creates (created) educational software. BIL says that cuts due to Obama has now taken his job. I said, Wait a minute! My BIL who voted for Obama twice now has no job and crying because he is not prepared for any of what's to come? I feel he has many things to learn. Told DH that its only the tip of the iceberg and I wish BIL was receptive to hear me out about being prepared for hard times. He has a wife and little girl who seem to all live in a fantasy world. Now I don't want to see them have a ruff time, but I'm wondering if maybe sometimes its not a necessary evil in order to open ones eyes. My family is very different. We all prep in some way and have almost unspoken plans, rules, skill sets and strengths. We know each others weaknesses which is just as important to planning. I feel a sense of comfort in knowing we have "insurance". So I'm thinking, what now? He gets unemployment or drains retirement while looking and hoping to get a job?


How did Obama contribute to your BIL's unemployment?


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## Grimm

Dakine said:


> Not only that but you can introduce them to the notion that prepping isn't about zombies, that's sideshow BS for TV and giggles on the internet. It's about being ready for the unexpected and being laid off can be very unexpected sometimes. (although the shambling undead are going to be very unexpected for most people, not me though, cuz I prep!!! :laugh:
> 
> I know there's a .pdf out there that was a guideline for preparing food storage the way Mormons do, where you buy things you use, and use what you buy, and that guideline was showing how very economically increase your overall food preps over the course of a year instead of going broke doing it all at once. It was a 52 week plan and it was really well thought out and documented, but I cant find it anywhere now and all of the sites that I tried to pull up that looked like they were what I was looking for are no longer available
> 
> The closest I could find is this site, which only lists a 4 week plan on spending $10 a week, same concept but a lot less specific and granular on how the whole thing comes together. http://lds.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/hagan59.html


Here is a good LDS 52 week food storage list...

http://preparedldsfamily.blogspot.com/p/52-weekly-food-storage-lists.html


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## ComputerGuy

Hi and welcome dethangle!!


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## Dakine

DethAngel said:


> How did Obama contribute to your BIL's unemployment?


Obamacare or the ACA is costing jobs left and right. I have two examples I can cite from the last 2 weeks.

I did an ER shift at a local hospital 2 weeks ago, before the shift meeting everyone was talking about coming reductions, and staff hours being cut... due to... Obamacare.

Second example, I was in the hospital for out-patient surgery last week and the nurses have been notified that 700 positions will be cut. That's KP. These were the nurses in pre-op care, when I was in recovery I spent some time talking to the nurses there and they confirmed it, and said it's still a very good field to get into but there are too many unknowns because nobody really understands or knows how exactly ACA will affect health care providers so hospitals are taking self protection preventative measures.

My company did the same thing in 09, we saw the writing on the wall with the economy and we trimmed a LOT of positions, and the cuts went deep, this wasn't just fluff. I think the health care companies like KP and others are just doing what they can to get ready for a storm.

In both these cases it's not BHO walking the halls saying "you're fired, you can stay, you're fired, you're fired, you stay..." but it's clearly his policy and that is the same thing as him doing it himself.


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## ComputerGuy

That pretty much answers what I am seeing too. I have 2 friends that are doctors, and both are closing shop because of ACA.

Said it was better to close up shop (btw the loss of over 30 jobs) than deal with ACA and class warfare


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## jsriley5

Hope they are smart enough to set up shop in their basements likely to be a booming business in black market medical aid. Not to mention when the push for the resett really comes our side will need doctors too. preferable reasonably well equiped ones.


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## Dakine

jsriley5 said:


> Hope they are smart enough to set up shop in their basements likely to be a booming business in black market medical aid. Not to mention when the push for the resett really comes our side will need doctors too. preferable reasonably well equiped ones.


Completely agree! and it's also a part of why I wanted to take the EMT classes. I enjoy learning new stuff anyway and this definitely scratched that itch, but it just might turn into very valuable knowledge when traditional resources are no longer available.

It might make a marketable skill for me also, those doctors and veterinarians are going to need competent help and it doesn't hurt to be good with combat skills and have my food too!


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## DethAngel

Dakine said:


> Obamacare or the ACA is costing jobs left and right. I have two examples I can cite from the last 2 weeks.
> 
> I did an ER shift at a local hospital 2 weeks ago, before the shift meeting everyone was talking about coming reductions, and staff hours being cut... due to... Obamacare.
> 
> Second example, I was in the hospital for out-patient surgery last week and the nurses have been notified that 700 positions will be cut. That's KP. These were the nurses in pre-op care, when I was in recovery I spent some time talking to the nurses there and they confirmed it, and said it's still a very good field to get into but there are too many unknowns because nobody really understands or knows how exactly ACA will affect health care providers so hospitals are taking self protection preventative measures.
> 
> My company did the same thing in 09, we saw the writing on the wall with the economy and we trimmed a LOT of positions, and the cuts went deep, this wasn't just fluff. I think the health care companies like KP and others are just doing what they can to get ready for a storm.
> 
> In both these cases it's not BHO walking the halls saying "you're fired, you can stay, you're fired, you're fired, you stay..." but it's clearly his policy and that is the same thing as him doing it himself.


I was asking for how directly ACA is contributing to the lose of jobs. These are just two vague examples of people in healthcare industry telling you that they might loose there jobs. Not really what I was looking for.


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## ComputerGuy

DethAngel said:


> I was asking for how directly ACA is contributing to the lose of jobs. These are just two vague examples of people in healthcare industry telling you that they might loose there jobs. Not really what I was looking for.


So what are you? The out of the nowhere Democratic Panel study group?

Remarkable! How you come out of nowhere no introduction, no nothing. You more than likely are a troll.


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## Dakine

DethAngel said:


> I was asking for how directly ACA is contributing to the lose of jobs. These are just two vague examples of people in healthcare industry telling you that they might loose there jobs. Not really what I was looking for.


No, it's not a "might", KP is definitely cutting 700 positions. When employers over a certain size are going to make cuts of a certain number or percentage they have to follow various laws regarding disclosure of that. The nurses "might" lose their job in the fact that which 700 nurses are getting RIF'd wasn't determined yet, but there will definitely be 700 let go, and the letter said that was active positions, they were NOT going to be taking advantage of offering early retirements or anything of that nature.

There must have been some details about the severance package as well because they were also talking about a years pay on the way out the door and one of them was near retirement age and she wrote back to their HR dept while I was there, commenting that it was unwise not to use those near retirement so they could save jobs for people that are still staying in the work force. I didnt want to ask more about the severance benefits because that seemed like it would be prying and out of place.

In the ER shift, that also was not a "might" those were positions and hours being cut, totally different health care network, not even remotely related to KP.

It doesn't bother me if you're a fan of ACA or Obama... if you are that's fine, but the simple truth is that there are consequences to implementing policies and legislation like that. Personally I'm not opposed to health care "reform" I just think they did a really horrible job of it with that particular bill and it should be fixed but not like that.


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## Grimm

DethAngel said:


> I was asking for how directly ACA is contributing to the lose of jobs. These are just two vague examples of people in healthcare industry telling you that they might loose there jobs. Not really what I was looking for.


A lot of people are losing their jobs as a preemptive step by companies. With new policies requiring companies to give benefits to employees etc these companies are trying to stay in the black. If this means letting go of half or more of their work force then so be it.


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## Grimm

ComputerGuy said:


> So what are you? The out of the nowhere Democratic Panel study group?
> 
> Remarkable! How you come out of nowhere no introduction, no nothing. You more than likely are a troll.


I thought I smelt something fishy. 
:feedtroll:


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## headhunter

I have a daughter who works hard (60-80 hrs a week) managing a "big box store". She is not stupid, nor lazy; she is well paid. I think because she has such an investment in things running "normally" she can not see what her aging father sees. She is so involved with arranging for trucks rolling in and out smoothly the thought that it might stop has as much reality to her as 'little green men" on her front lawn.
Preparedness for her is, "Dad, I do have my boots, snow pants, heavy jacket, snow shovel, scraper,and jumper cables in the Jeep. "
She has been given two handguns, a .22 rifle ,and a deer rifle. She has a good sleeping bag, knives and an axe: and they all stay at home.
Skills, she earned her Sharpshooter Bar 7 and has a 5X5 mule deer on the wall taken at 200+yds. She has been a camper since she was 2 or 3.
I believe she voted for #44 because of his opponent's earlier "pro-life" stand (she really figures it's up to the individuals) she's as hard headed about it as her father is about the Second Amendment. I guess I'm trying to say it wasn't just about business vs. anti business.


----------



## partdeux

pixieduster said:


> Boy don't I know it. He didn't say that's what he is going to do. I was prospecting what he may have to do. With nothing to fall back on (preps) , where else ya gunna pull from? They don't garden, thrift store, make meals at home, etc. I see a hard road ahead and lessons to be learned.


He is going to have to take inventory of what he has, and what he needs. When I got laid off, I started at the bottom of needs, and took a completely different look at life. Took a hard line business like approach to everything. It made a HUGE difference in how we even live today.

Needs based bottom up budgeting is a tough concept, but necessary.


----------



## DethAngel

ComputerGuy said:


> So what are you? The out of the nowhere Democratic Panel study group?
> 
> Remarkable! How you come out of nowhere no introduction, no nothing. You more than likely are a troll.


I don't know much about ACA that's why I'm wondering.. And still all of you have avoided the question.

I'm just wondering how ACA is causing these job loses. Shouldn't be hard to tell since all of you feel so strongly about this topic.


----------



## ComputerGuy

DethAngel said:


> I don't know much about ACA that's why I'm wondering.. And still all of you have avoided the question.
> 
> I'm just wondering how ACA is causing these job loses. Shouldn't be hard to tell since all of you feel so strongly about this topic.


DEth go beyond the MSNBC reading points and get a good idea yourself. People here are giving first hand examples.

Looking for graphs? Looking for site. I am sure that Bobbb can get involved and point out everything to you.

People here are sharing their example. Open your eyes!


----------



## Dakine

DethAngel said:


> I don't know much about ACA that's why I'm wondering.. And still all of you have avoided the question.
> 
> I'm just wondering how ACA is causing these job loses. Shouldn't be hard to tell since all of you feel so strongly about this topic.


I think it's a whole lot harder than your expecting. The ACA was something like 1,100 pages of legislation I think? That is a LOT of conditions, exemptions, regulations, taxes, oversight, rules, etc.

How that entire piece of work is applied to a company like KP (leading to their decision to reduce headcount in the nursing dept) may be completely different than the reasons that the individual doctors chose to end their practice that ComputerGuy was referring to. The cause is the same, but the specific reasons inside of the legislation are applied differently to the different examples. Regardless, it was a negative impact that all of those parties had to assess and reach a conclusion on how they were going to proceed.

In addition to all of that, there's still a lot of unknown regarding the ACA. There's been ONE very talked about Supreme Court challenge of the law, but there are still others coming up. Also there's states rights that apply and will lead to even more challenges.

The unknown of whether they are following a poorly written and some have labeled "impossible to implement" law and yet still be held financially and legally responsible could easily cause someone to say "I've had it with this business, I'll go sell..." I dunno, pick a product...

I already said I think it was horribly implemented. Since you still ask, I'll expand that statement...

I dont think it's the governments job to go around mandating health care coverage for a companies employees. If a company wants to be profitable they will want the best quality employees they can get. Those quality employees are going to look at their options... do they want company A which is going to pay them X amount of dollars and offers little or no benefits, or do they want to go with company B which offers competitive salary, bonuses, 401k plans, and health care benefits? Pretty clear choice right? And nowhere in there was it necessary to create a layer of bureaucracy of oversight or a thousand pages of laws and taxes and exemptions and conditions, etc...

I dont think it's the governments job to say "we need to pass this bill so we can see what's in it!!!" - Nancy Pelosi.

I dont think it's the governments job to say they are going to be "open and transparent and every law will be fully available for the public to read online" and then pass bills in the middle of the night when nobody is looking.

See what I mean?


----------



## Grimm

Dakine said:


> I think it's a whole lot harder than your expecting. The ACA was something like 1,100 pages of legislation I think? That is a LOT of conditions, exemptions, regulations, taxes, oversight, rules, etc.
> 
> How that entire piece of work is applied to a company like KP (leading to their decision to reduce headcount in the nursing dept) may be completely different than the reasons that the individual doctors chose to end their practice that ComputerGuy was referring to. The cause is the same, but the specific reasons inside of the legislation are applied differently to the different examples. Regardless, it was a negative impact that all of those parties had to assess and reach a conclusion on how they were going to proceed.
> 
> In addition to all of that, there's still a lot of unknown regarding the ACA. There's been ONE very talked about Supreme Court challenge of the law, but there are still others coming up. Also there's states rights that apply and will lead to even more challenges.
> 
> The unknown of whether they are following a poorly written and some have labeled "impossible to implement" law and yet still be held financially and legally responsible could easily cause someone to say "I've had it with this business, I'll go sell..." I dunno, pick a product...
> 
> I already said I think it was horribly implemented. Since you still ask, I'll expand that statement...
> 
> I dont think it's the governments job to go around mandating health care coverage for a companies employees. If a company wants to be profitable they will want the best quality employees they can get. Those quality employees are going to look at their options... do they want company A which is going to pay them X amount of dollars and offers little or no benefits, or do they want to go with company B which offers competitive salary, bonuses, 401k plans, and health care benefits? Pretty clear choice right? And nowhere in there was it necessary to create a layer of bureaucracy of oversight or a thousand pages of laws and taxes and exemptions and conditions, etc...
> 
> I dont think it's the governments job to say "we need to pass this bill so we can see what's in it!!!" - Nancy Pelosi.
> 
> I dont think it's the governments job to say they are going to be "open and transparent and every law will be fully available for the public to read online" and then pass bills in the middle of the night when nobody is looking.
> 
> See what I mean?


If Dethangel STILL doesn't think "his/her" questions were answered I think they are a troll.


----------



## alwaysready

pixieduster said:


> Boy don't I know it. He didn't say that's what he is going to do. I was prospecting what he may have to do. With nothing to fall back on (preps) , where else ya gunna pull from? They don't garden, thrift store, make meals at home, etc. I see a hard road ahead and lessons to be learned.


When the student is willing the teacher will appear.


----------



## Bobbb

DethAngel said:


> I don't know much about ACA that's why I'm wondering.. And still all of you have avoided the question.
> 
> I'm just wondering how ACA is causing these job loses. Shouldn't be hard to tell since all of you feel so strongly about this topic.


There is a thread here entitled "Layoffs" where all the news reports of companies laying off people due to Obama's policies have been linked and analyzed.

It's really as simple as this - policies have consequences. The obvious consequence of Obama Care is that it is designed to provide health care to people. There are however other consequences, the chief one being that it imposes significant costs on employers and employers will react to this massive new tax on them by trying to avoid it or to minimize it. Lots of people tried to school liberals on this issue before Obamacare was passed but all liberals saw was dancing fairies delivering free health care to everyone.


----------



## Viking

Just as a footnote, a few years ago while visiting my VA doctor for an annual check up he told me,"If you think health care is bad now just wait until Obama Care kicks in." Well the VA is expanding a third clinic within a 100 mile radius but may not be able to staff the existing facilities plus the new one with enough people for proper care of an ever increasing amount of vets that need the care. I was supposed to have my annual in May but couldn't get one scheduled until last week.


----------



## Dakine

Viking said:


> Just as a footnote, a few years ago while visiting my VA doctor for an annual check up he told me,"If you think health care is bad now just wait until Obama Care kicks in." Well the VA is expanding a third clinic within a 100 mile radius but may not be able to staff the existing facilities plus the new one with enough people for proper care of an ever increasing amount of vets that need the care. I was supposed to have my annual in May but couldn't get one scheduled until last week.


Yeah, I wish it weren't so, but ultimately the VA is caught in the same loop that other public health care is. Increasing amounts of customers, limits on budgets, rising costs of care and the physical supplies required to provide it. And you combine all of that with a populace who now lives longer, and therefore will suffer more old age diseases because they weren't killed when they had their first heart attack, or maybe even the first stroke, ALZ, and those are just natural old age diseases...

The only difference in private health care is that they have the option of raising rates and setting exclusions for new people with pre-existing conditions, or at least they did, I'm not sure how ACA will or will not affect that. it's quite possible that's not true anymore, or will not be true following a decision by the supremes.

Health care in general is in a bad place right now, and it's only going to get worse.


----------



## Bobbb

Dakine said:


> Health care in general is in a bad place right now, and it's only going to get worse.


This will continue as long as we have opaque pricing. Health care is no more in crisis than any other aspect of the household budget. Are we facing a crisis because people enjoy living in more spacious houses than did their parents and grandparents? Are we in a crisis because people like driving expensive SUVs and luxury cars rather than Chevy Vegas and Ford Pintos?

The point is that people make choices on how they spend so that they believe that they get value for the dollar. Right now people are forced to pay for medical coverage and they don't feel that they're getting their money's worth. Bronco wants to centralize this even further by mandating what insurance must provide.

For the health care system and for people's appreciation of the health care system to improve we need to be moving in the opposite direction of what Bronco is advocating. People feel good about their spending when it is freely engaged in and they believe that they're getting good value for the money then spent. Some people are happy when they buy a BMW or a Mercedes and others are happy when they buy a Hyundai and both parties would be unhappy if FORCED to buy the car that they didn't want.


----------



## Dakine

Bobbb said:


> This will continue as long as we have opaque pricing. Health care is no more in crisis than any other aspect of the household budget. Are we facing a crisis because people enjoy living in more spacious houses than did their parents and grandparents? Are we in a crisis because people like driving expensive SUVs and luxury cars rather than Chevy Vegas and Ford Pintos?
> 
> The point is that people make choices on how they spend so that they believe that they get value for the dollar. Right now people are forced to pay for medical coverage and they don't feel that they're getting their money's worth. Bronco wants to centralize this even further by mandating what insurance must provide.
> 
> For the health care system and for people's appreciation of the health care system to improve we need to be moving in the opposite direction of what Bronco is advocating. People feel good about their spending when it is freely engaged in and they believe that they're getting good value for the money then spent. Some people are happy when they buy a BMW or a Mercedes and others are happy when they buy a Hyundai and both parties would be unhappy if FORCED to buy the car that they didn't want.


I think it goes a lot deeper than that. For example some of the things you mentioned:

Opaque pricing, sure, I agree... but take that even further! There's rampant fraud, it's in pricing and billing and who is eligible for services and exactly which services. I've heard numerous reports of charges for very minor things that you wouldn't necessarily see and catch unless you review every line item on your bill, and who does that if they have insurance from work that covers it? Very few I guess and absolutely nobody that has government sponsored health care. And yet the stories are out there, you came in for a routine physical, but your bill submitted had charges for aspirin or bandages to treat a lacerated hand. Because they know it's under the radar of what insurance will audit, and they've got to make up the lost revenue somewhere right? This is the elephant in the room, and until we do address it, we just keep going down hill. healthcare doesn't magically get cheaper just because the gov't buys it, but somehow people let themselves believe this myth... they WANT to believe it so badly, that they'll accept whatever they have to trying to get there.

The car analogy is good too, except the people who would normally be walking or possibly buying the pinto, are being handed the keys to a brand new Hyundai, and the people that had the BMW are being carjacked and left with nothing but the Hyundai to drive now. So I don't agree that nobody is happy with it, unless of course the folks who were on the shoe leather express REALLY start getting FINED/TAXED for not paying their mandated insurance premiums. Do you really think that's going to happen? the ACLU will step in and sue, health care just got labeled a right, and you cant charge someone a bill for a right, that's racist dont ya know... BOOM! instant collapse.

LOL actually the more that I think about it, bring it on. Better to get it over with now than drag it out another 20 years.

:soapboxrant:


----------



## Bobbb

Dakine said:


> I think it goes a lot deeper than that. For example some of the things you mentioned:
> 
> Opaque pricing, sure, I agree... but take that even further! There's rampant fraud, it's in pricing and billing and who is eligible for services and exactly which services. I've heard numerous reports of charges for very minor things that you wouldn't necessarily see and catch unless you review every line item on your bill, and who does that if they have insurance from work that covers it?


Third party insurance is part of the opaque pricing system.






P.J. O'Rourke:

"1. You spend your money on yourself. You're motivated to get the thing you want most at the best price. This is the way middle-aged men haggle with Porsche dealers.

2. You spend your money on other people. You still want a bargain, but you're less interested in pleasing the recipient of your largesse. This is why children get underwear at Christmas.

3. You spend other people's money on yourself. You get what you want but price no longer matters. The second wives who ride around with the middle-aged men in the Porsches do this kind of spending at Neiman Marcus.

4. You spend other people's money on other people. And in this case, who gives a sh*t?"​


> healthcare doesn't magically get cheaper just because the gov't buys it, but somehow people let themselves believe this myth... they WANT to believe it so badly, that they'll accept whatever they have to trying to get there.


People want free stuff. I haven't run into one liberal who wants to pay more for his own health care so that others can be subsidized, it's always the reverse, people want free stuff.



> Do you really think that's going to happen? the ACLU will step in and sue, health care just got labeled a right, and you cant charge someone a bill for a right, that's racist dont ya know... BOOM! instant collapse.


Yeah, when liberal dreams intersect the real world, there is a cataclysmic boom, just like when matter and antimatter mingle.


----------



## Dakine

Really nice find, that video certainly does crystallize a part of the problem doesn't it?

Maybe since Kagen helped author ACA she should be forced to watch this "clockwork orange" style :laugh:

$3k solutions to $30k problems... win win for everyone except the lawyers and bureaucrats


----------



## Bobbb

Dakine said:


> Really nice find, that video certainly does crystallize a part of the problem doesn't it?
> 
> Maybe since Kagen helped author ACA she should be forced to watch this "clockwork orange" style :laugh:
> 
> $3k solutions to $30k problems... win win for everyone except the lawyers and bureaucrats


People who understand people can see clear solutions. This, btw, excludes liberals.

Compare shopping for a LCD or Plasma TV to shopping for a smartphone package. People are happy with a straight purchase where pricing is transparent but all of the gobblegook hidden into the smartphone plan makes people unhappy. People are happy when they go to a theater to watch a movie but they're unhappy about having to pay for a cable tier package where they end up paying for a package of 10 channels in order to be able to watch 1 or 2.

This is what is going on with health care - people are paying for insurance packages that includes lots of services that they don't want and they're unhappy about the costs.

The best way to achieve consumer satisfaction with health care spending is to offer choice and to eliminate comprehensive insurance plans. People pay as they go and when a medical event happens which requires expensive treatment then their catastrophic insurance plan kicks in and takes over paying. This way people can decide whether to pay for the doctor in the high volume clinic, the doctor who spends more time with patients, whether to pay for the latest test or make do with the simpler, less expensive test, etc.


----------



## NaeKid

Bobbb said:


> There is a thread here entitled "Layoffs" where all the news reports of companies laying off people due to Obama's policies have been linked and analyzed.


Here is the quick-link to that thread ... http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f31/massive-layoffs-14954/


----------



## Grimm

NaeKid said:


> Here is the quick-link to that thread ... http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f31/massive-layoffs-14954/


I think "dethangel" is a troll trying to stir the sh*t.

:feedtroll:


----------



## Dakine

Grimm said:


> I think "dethangel" is a troll trying to stir the sh*t.
> 
> :feedtroll:


It's okay...

If he was intentionally trolling, he didn't get the fight he wanted. nobody here that I know of really cares that Obama is president because he's this or that, they care about how policy is implemented and what the effects are.

If he wasn't trolling and meant his questions honestly, he either got his answers or still thinks we or I are holding out on him... I can't help that. I have a day job and trying to read and understand every possible implication of the ACA is not part of it. If he's not satisfied with the answers I or others can provide, so be it... maybe he can find the answers somewhere else


----------



## pixieduster

DethAngel said:


> How did Obama contribute to your BIL's unemployment?


His words, not mine. He didn't get into details. I'm sure he was way to upset. I was very surprised to hear him say that due to his political stance on things.


----------



## pixieduster

alwaysready said:


> When the student is willing the teacher will appear.


Love that! So true. :flower:


----------



## alwaysready

pixieduster said:


> Love that! So true. :flower:


My guess is that he is aware of prepping and unless he finds comparable employment soon. He will be blessed with his personal little SHTF situation. Nothing motivates like discomfort not enough money, late on bills, ect. I call it a blessing because he has an oppertunity to open his eyes and really see and understand reality. My sons worked in construction making alot more money than I do. They understand what it means to be prepared but since I am the main person making plans and executing said plans. They were laxed and wasteful. Then back in 2008 they lost their jobs "Layed off" They did survive with Unemployment, Odd jobs and some of my preps. Fast forward to 2012. They are once again gainfully employed and see life differently my "our" preps are in the best shape ever. They are greatful for the SHTF practice run they were blessed with. Hope your BIL catches on.


----------



## Grimm

alwaysready said:


> My guess is that he is aware of prepping and unless he finds comparable employment soon. He will be blessed with his personal little SHTF situation. Nothing motivates like discomfort not enough money, late on bills, ect. I call it a blessing because he has an oppertunity to open his eyes and really see and understand reality. My sons worked in construction making alot more money than I do. They understand what it means to be prepared but since I am the main person making plans and executing said plans. They were laxed and wasteful. Then back in 2008 they lost their jobs "Layed off" They did survive with Unemployment, Odd jobs and some of my preps. Fast forward to 2012. They are once again gainfully employed and see life differently my "our" preps are in the best shape ever. They are greatful for the SHTF practice run they were blessed with. Hope your BIL catches on.


This is what happened to us in 2010 before our daughter was born. My DH is in construction and this summer's lay off has proven to be the most fun. No joke, our preps have made it easy to live without having to worry about food etc. Not even our Roo's birthday stressed us out. All the food at the party except the meat were from our preps. I even canned the left over meat and we are still enjoying it. 

I had gotten her presents after Christmas last year when toys were on sale so not even that stressed us out. I have toys and presents for her for the next 3-4 years tucked away in a closet so even if SHTF right now she'd have normal birthdays/Christmas. I even fixed up my own dolls and toys to pass down to her. Before she was a twinkle in our eyes I was an avid doll collector. My collection was ridiculous! I trimmed it down since are ALL those dolls really needed!? 

But back on topic. Prepping has really helped my family through some hard times. Now my husband really understands what I have been doing.


----------



## ComputerGuy

That is a very nice post Grimm.


----------



## Grimm

ComputerGuy said:


> That is a very nice post Grimm.


Thanks. Unemployment and side jobs only covered our rent and bills so the preps and pre-planning for Roo's party really helped keep us sane. It also didn't hurt that I had preps for our cats. Otherwise the litter box would have killed our noses! Now if I could keep Alice out of my lap and Roo off the keyboard. Kids and cats...!


----------



## BillM

Find a job.

Start a business

Move somewhere that has more oppertunity.

Take minimial employment, ( McDonalds) If one shift won't do it, take two shifts.


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## pixieduster

BillM said:


> Find a job.
> 
> Start a business
> 
> Move somewhere that has more oppertunity.
> 
> Take minimial employment, ( McDonalds) If one shift won't do it, take two shifts.


Agreed. But that's what I would do. Hope the BIL does something quick before he's in trouble.


----------



## Grimm

pixieduster said:


> Agreed. But that's what I would do. Hope the BIL does something quick before he's in trouble.


I have an ebay shop that I 'open' when money becomes an issue or right after we do our spring cleaning. I end up selling parts of my collections and random things that will sell for a lot. My DH will take side jobs, handyman gigs or anything he can find just short of standing outside of Home Depot. We do what we have to.


----------



## LincTex

I ate lunch at a local Subway yesterday. I picked a seat away from the main dining area because it is secluded. 

I think they forgot I was there... The manager held a meeting in the main area with all hands. She laid it on the line... thanks to new "policy" (she didn't mention Obama) no one will be allowed to work longer than 28 hours per week. The employees were REALLY upset.


----------



## pixieduster

LincTex said:


> I ate lunch at a local Subway yesterday. I picked a seat away from the main dining area because it is secluded.
> 
> I think they forgot I was there... The manager held a meeting in the main area with all hands. She laid it on the line... thanks to new "policy" (she didn't mention Obama) no one will be allowed to work longer than 28 hours per week. The employees were REALLY upset.


What an eye opener. Sombering isn't it. I suppose I would have to work subway and mcdonalds and throw papers in the morning if I didn't have a skill/trade. When I turned 16, that same day I went and got two jobs.


----------



## alwaysready

Grimm said:


> This is what happened to us in 2010 before our daughter was born. My DH is in construction and this summer's lay off has proven to be the most fun. No joke, our preps have made it easy to live without having to worry about food etc. Not even our Roo's birthday stressed us out. All the food at the party except the meat were from our preps. I even canned the left over meat and we are still enjoying it.
> 
> I had gotten her presents after Christmas last year when toys were on sale so not even that stressed us out. I have toys and presents for her for the next 3-4 years tucked away in a closet so even if SHTF right now she'd have normal birthdays/Christmas. I even fixed up my own dolls and toys to pass down to her. Before she was a twinkle in our eyes I was an avid doll collector. My collection was ridiculous! I trimmed it down since are ALL those dolls really needed!?
> 
> But back on topic. Prepping has really helped my family through some hard times. Now my husband really understands what I have been doing.


Sounds like a winner my Grandchildren know not to expect presents from me until January. Then the rules are simple " Choose wisely because you only choose once. Being a Grandpa is fun they go along with whatever I say that's because Pa is old and set in his ways.


----------



## JayJay

pixieduster said:


> Today my husband tells me his brother got laid off. A well educated man who creates (created) educational software. BIL says that cuts due to Obama has now taken his job. I said, Wait a minute! My BIL who voted for Obama twice now has no job and crying because he is not prepared for any of what's to come? I feel he has many things to learn. Told DH that its only the tip of the iceberg and I wish BIL was receptive to hear me out about being prepared for hard times. He has a wife and little girl who seem to all live in a fantasy world. Now I don't want to see them have a ruff time, but I'm wondering if maybe sometimes its not a necessary evil in order to open ones eyes. My family is very different. We all prep in some way and have almost unspoken plans, rules, skill sets and strengths. We know each others weaknesses which is just as important to planning. I feel a sense of comfort in knowing we have "insurance". So I'm thinking, what now? He gets unemployment or drains retirement while looking and hoping to get a job?


I have just one neighbor that actually spoke to me--one of those one-sided half-a** friendships where I ALWAYS went to her porch.
So one day I get an email from the Ostupid supporters about how Ocare was gonna go into their bank account, blah, blah, blah.
So, being the 'concerned' neighbor I am, but a neighbor with not much patience for stupidity for those that continue doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, I responded honestly.
Other than the few words on MY back porch this time, after they received the email, I haven't heard from them.


----------



## dixiemama

My husband had a stroke last year at the age of 27. He was off for a month. That was our eye opener. We have started actively prepping and when he was off this summer for surgery, we didn't stress about food. Now we are looking for him to be placed off work permanently and again, have food so we don't have to worry. I also buy gifts on sale after Christmas for birthdays. We have steadily been reducing our debt and will only have vehicle payments (2 years and counting), my student loans and 1 credit card after February. Our power bill is minimal, free water and gas for our home. 

I sold a lot of things last fall, old doll collection, clothes/shoes/purses. We live very minimally now and plan on continuing it. It can be done, he just has to be scared enough about his daughter going hungry to realize what needs to be done.


----------



## ContinualHarvest

Many companies are cutting workers mainly to protect their executive bonuses. It's not Obamas fault, it's just plain old greed. Look at Hostess for example. The company would have done fine and made it through the rough patch it hit if it weren't for the executives increasing their salaries by 3 times. We're talking millions of dollars. This is a perfect example of Bain style economics. Hollow out the company, make millions then dump it, no matter how many hard working American families they hurt.
Then you have companies like Papa Johns and some of the mining companies. Major supporters of the GOP, just protesting the outcome of the election. They just like to play "god" with people's lives. Those folks didn't need to lose their jobs. The CEOS made a huge money grab then fought to have their bonuses protected under the bankruptcy agreement. Pure corporate greed.

So, don't blame a president, or even a party. Blame the CEO up top, protecting his bonus for cutting labor and benefits, or the board members thinking more about the stock value than the families that depend on the job. 
We need more companies where the employees own them. Give the people actually doing the work a major stake in the company, and not something minuscule, something tangible. 
It's unfortunate the your BIL lost his job. But Obama, or his policies didn't single him out. Someone in that specific company did, for whatever reason be it personal or to protect higher profits/bonuses etc. So, when the CEO is out enjoying a 30-40k$ company paid trip, driving a new company car or enjoying a large cash bonus, just think about how much of that could have covered the salary of an employee.


----------



## Dakine

ContinualHarvest said:


> Many companies are cutting workers mainly to protect their executive bonuses. It's not Obamas fault, it's just plain old greed. Look at Hostess for example. The company would have done fine and made it through the rough patch it hit if it weren't for the executives increasing their salaries by 3 times. We're talking millions of dollars. This is a perfect example of Bain style economics. Hollow out the company, make millions then dump it, no matter how many hard working American families they hurt.
> Then you have companies like Papa Johns and some of the mining companies. Major supporters of the GOP, just protesting the outcome of the election. They just like to play "god" with people's lives. Those folks didn't need to lose their jobs. The CEOS made a huge money grab then fought to have their bonuses protected under the bankruptcy agreement. Pure corporate greed.
> 
> So, don't blame a president, or even a party. Blame the CEO up top, protecting his bonus for cutting labor and benefits, or the board members thinking more about the stock value than the families that depend on the job.
> We need more companies where the employees own them. Give the people actually doing the work a major stake in the company, and not something minuscule, something tangible.
> It's unfortunate the your BIL lost his job. But Obama, or his policies didn't single him out. Someone in that specific company did, for whatever reason be it personal or to protect higher profits/bonuses etc. So, when the CEO is out enjoying a 30-40k$ company paid trip, driving a new company car or enjoying a large cash bonus, just think about how much of that could have covered the salary of an employee.


Yeah, the unions had nothing to do with it and were innocent bystanders, like always! :brickwall:


----------



## Bobbb

ContinualHarvest said:


> Many companies are cutting workers mainly to protect their executive bonuses. It's not Obamas fault, it's just plain old greed.


Oh brother! Don't blame the mugger for stealing your wallet, watch and wedding ring, it's not his fault, it's yours for being so greedy as to have a watch, wallet and wedding ring when the mugger doesn't have those. Lesson: If you're not greedy then you won't be mugged.



> Look at Hostess for example. The company would have done fine and made it through the rough patch it hit if it weren't for the executives increasing their salaries by 3 times. We're talking millions of dollars. This is a perfect example of Bain style economics. Hollow out the company, make millions then dump it, no matter how many hard working American families they hurt.


Do you purposely seek out investments which pay lower rates of return than alternative investment choices? If one bank is offering a 3% GIC do you bypass them and stick your cash with the banks that offers a 0.25% return? If you don't then why do you expect investors who buy companies OUT OF BANKRUPTCY to flush their own investments down the toilet?



> So, don't blame a president, or even a party.


That's right. Don't blame Bush for Iraqi deaths, blame the soldiers who shot the Iraqi terrorists. Bush is completely blameless.



> We need more companies where the employees own them.


Mortgage your house, borrow from your parents, start a business and give each employee that you hire a share equal to your own. Show us how it's done when it's your money that you're giving away to your employees.


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## ContinualHarvest

Bobbb said:


> Oh brother! Don't blame the mugger for stealing your wallet, watch and wedding ring, it's not his fault, it's yours for being so greedy as to have a watch, wallet and wedding ring when the mugger doesn't have those. Lesson: If you're not greedy then you won't be mugged.
> 
> Do you purposely seek out investments which pay lower rates of return than alternative investment choices? If one bank is offering a 3% GIC do you bypass them and stick your cash with the banks that offers a 0.25% return? If you don't then why do you expect investors who buy companies OUT OF BANKRUPTCY to flush their own investments down the toilet?
> 
> That's right. Don't blame Bush for Iraqi deaths, blame the soldiers who shot the Iraqi terrorists. Bush is completely blameless.
> 
> Mortgage your house, borrow from your parents, start a business and give each employee that you hire a share equal to your own. Show us how it's done when it's your money that you're giving away to your employees.


Comment of Investments- I'd rather have a sustainable lower rate investment rather than one with a higher return interest rate that will burn out long before the lower interest one. In the end you'll make more money with "slow and steady".

The Iraqi terrorist comment - More than 15 of the 9/11 terrorists were from Saudi Arabia. Not Iraq. Saddam was bad and needed to be taken out, but that's another story.

Mortgage Your House comment - These CEOs didn't mortgage anything. There is no comparison to the small business owners that make this country. These multinational corporate vampires have not vested interest in the company. They want to just make a bunch of cash however they can, ethics and social responsibility be damned. They don't care about the life of the company either. When employees own a stake in a company, I'm not even saying a majority stake just enough to make them care about the future of the company, they will be more productive, which is good for everyone.

And the comment about the mugger is just ridiculous. If that's a reference to taxes, we all enjoy relatively safe roads, clean air, water, a military to protect us and education so that we aren't stuck in the dark ages.


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## Bobbb

ContinualHarvest said:


> Comment of Investments- I'd rather have a sustainable lower rate investment rather than one with a higher return interest rate that will burn out long before the lower interest one. In the end you'll make more money with "slow and steady".


I hope you aren't too offended when I point out that a person who is economically illiterate shouldn't be giving out investment advice.



> The Iraqi terrorist comment - More than 15 of the 9/11 terrorists were from Saudi Arabia. Not Iraq. Saddam was bad and needed to be taken out, but that's another story.


Right over your head. This has nothing to do with 9/11. Your argument was not to blame Bronco and the Democrats but to blame the CEOS who were responding to the conditions that Bronco imposed on their business. The parallel here is to not blame Bush for launching a policy, war, which leads to high levels of mortality in Iraq but to blame the soldiers for killing people, many of whom are planting IEDs and fighting against the soldiers. The issue that you don't want to examine is WHY are the CEOs making these decisions? Why are the soldiers killing Iraqis? They do so because of policies imposed upon them.


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## partdeux

ContinualHarvest said:


> Many companies are cutting workers mainly to protect their executive bonuses. It's not Obamas fault, it's just plain old greed. Look at Hostess for example. The company would have done fine and made it through the rough patch it hit if it weren't for the executives increasing their salaries by 3 times. We're talking millions of dollars.


While I'm not a fan of the Hostess exec bonuses, Hostess was losing hundreds of millions of dollars each and every year. That was not sustainable by any stretch of the imagination.


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## JayJay

*More than 15 of the 9/11 terrorists were from Saudi Arabia
*
Have you honestly been living on the moon for the last 10 years??
Geeze, where do you people come from?? CNN??


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## Dakine

Osama Bin Laden is from Saudi Arabia himself, the movement he wanted to perpetuate would transcend traditional national boundaries and render them useless and ineffective. 

The vote is still out if he was successful, we just dont know yet. I hope it does not come to pass, I really do NOT need another gang of thugs to worry about if we have a collapse.


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## TheLazyL

partdeux said:


> While I'm not a fan of the Hostess exec bonuses, Hostess was losing hundreds of millions of dollars each and every year. That was not sustainable by any stretch of the imagination.


Really? The your Yankee Federal government believes it's sustainable...


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## partdeux

TheLazyL said:


> Really? The your Yankee Federal government believes it's sustainable...


Cash flow will always trump losses... for awhile.

Fed Govt is still the worlds reserve currency... see cash flow above.

Fed Reserve is more then happy to provide additional cash as needed, at an interest rate of 6%.


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