# Watch the oil



## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

If the current squable in Egypt blocks or slows the suez canal enough to effect oil shipment it could be enough to topple the fragile north american especially whats left of the US economy. Oil goes up , fuel goes up. North America relies on trucks to move freight , brokes charge more but they don't pass it along to the truckers. the transport industry is on life support now, big trucking companies have office staff that is so out of touch with the cost of the actual cost of transport that things are set to fold like a house of cards. If you have money and are putting off getting something that requires transportation you may want to rethink waiting.
The transport industry is vital and an easily disrupted system "IF you got it a truck brought it"


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## BasecampUSA (Dec 26, 2010)

Yeah man!

I'm filling an empty 500 gal diesel tank I have tomorrow...

I've already got 3 other 500 gal tanks full of diesel now... -everything on this homestead runs on diesel... cars, trucks, tractors and generators.

Diesel can keep for decades, not like gasoline that goes bad after a couple of years.

The farming must continue! Local farming (like this homestead) with be vital in the future.

- BC


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

BasecampUSA said:


> Yeah man!
> 
> I'm filling an empty 500 gal diesel tank I have tomorrow...
> 
> ...


 Actually diesel and home heating oil has a shelf life of about 2 yrs, you may get 4 by putting in an additive and stirring the the oil every few months to keep the sludge from settling. I've been storing 1500 gals here for yrs, but its' completely rotated about every 3 yrs


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

I have to disagree. Pri-d is an amazing product that I use in my diesel storage tank.

*From their site:
Tests indicate that PRI can keep fuels fresh, in many instances for 10 years or more. However, for maximum benefit, fuel should be dosed with PRI annually. If your fuel is already in poor condition, do not worry. PRI-D for diesel, and PRI-G for gasoline have demonstrated the amazing capability to restore very old, stale fuels to refinery fresh condition. *

Of course this is the company's claim but I've heard nothing but positive comments about Pri products.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Oil , gas and diesel*

This country is huge.

All goods and services are transported useing oil , gas and diesel.

Without transport of these goods and services, everything will come to a halt in a week.

When inflation drives Diesel to $5.00 for over two weeks , the economy will collapse!


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## Clarice (Aug 19, 2010)

My DH was an owner operator over the road trucker for 32 years. I also drove for a few years myself. Mainly we hauled food products going out but never knew what our backhaul would be till we loaded. There is nothing you use, eat, drink or wear that was not at some time hauled by a truck. Luckly we sold out before the fuel prices got much higher. Those operators that own their own rigs are responsible for their own maintenance and fuel, some weeks it was difficult to just break even. Don't know how the guys today are making it with the price of fuel so high. Don't kid yourselves the prices on everything will be going up along with the fuel as no retailer wants to cut their bottom line, and I can't blame them, they have to make a living too. Just a word of advise, IF YOU NEED IT GET IT NOW.


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

UncleJoe said:


> I have to disagree. Pri-d is an amazing product that I use in my diesel storage tank.
> 
> *From their site:
> Tests indicate that PRI can keep fuels fresh, in many instances for 10 years or more. However, for maximum benefit, fuel should be dosed with PRI annually. If your fuel is already in poor condition, do not worry. PRI-D for diesel, and PRI-G for gasoline have demonstrated the amazing capability to restore very old, stale fuels to refinery fresh condition. *
> ...


 I've used Pri-D in my tanks for yrs, the fuel still settles and all the sludge goes to the bottom if the tanks are not pumped out and rotated every couple yrs.I've also worked on oil burners and diesel engines for many yrs and most of the problems in winter has been with old fuel in old tanks


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## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

UncleJoe said:


> I have to disagree. Pri-d is an amazing product that I use in my diesel storage tank.
> 
> *From their site:
> Tests indicate that PRI can keep fuels fresh, in many instances for 10 years or more. However, for maximum benefit, fuel should be dosed with PRI annually. If your fuel is already in poor condition, do not worry. PRI-D for diesel, and PRI-G for gasoline have demonstrated the amazing capability to restore very old, stale fuels to refinery fresh condition. *
> ...


I wonder if it will improve my shelf life of Coleman camp fuel??

I only have 6 now and plan on getting much more when I learn the answer to this...
Test: 1/2 cup burned 55 minutes on low.

It is our backup; we have a wood/coal tent stove--neighbors will love us when that smoke starts coming from our garage window...ya think??


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## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

Clarice said:


> My DH was an owner operator over the road trucker for 32 years. I also drove for a few years myself. Mainly we hauled food products going out but never knew what our backhaul would be till we loaded. There is nothing you use, eat, drink or wear that was not at some time hauled by a truck. Luckly we sold out before the fuel prices got much higher. Those operators that own their own rigs are responsible for their own maintenance and fuel, some weeks it was difficult to just break even. Don't know how the guys today are making it with the price of fuel so high. Don't kid yourselves the prices on everything will be going up along with the fuel as no retailer wants to cut their bottom line, and I can't blame them, they have to make a living too. Just a word of advise, IF YOU NEED IT GET IT NOW.


We were owner-operators for a while and BIL still drives at age 76 for a company.
The truckers could shut this country down if they wanted to.:ignore:

Thank God I am 1/4 mile from a farmer/produce grower --don't know how well he is on storing his fuel...but I do see tanks at his nurseries.

That's why when calculating the stored food I have, I don't forget the 3 or so months I will be bicycling to this farmer if God wills it.


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## nj_m715 (Oct 31, 2008)

I have first hand experience that backs up Base. 
My unit was activated to prep 5 ton military tractors to be deployed to the gulf in '02. Most of the trucks were not started in 15 yrs since they were moved to the storage yard. Some even longer because they were towed. Most of them only needed new batteries to start up and run. They didn't run great, some had bad brakes or broken lights, but they did start and drive. What else can you ask for after that long? 

Most of the cases on the batteries we changed broke. The bottom of the case and the lead sat in the battery box while the top and sides lifted right up. That's how long they were sitting. 

compare that to a simple lawn mower that refuses to start after sitting through the winter. I'll take a diesel any day. Especially one running on wvo


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## kolob (Jan 14, 2011)

If you look up a site called gulf coast filters they sell systems to scrub diesel fuel. These are popular on boats and ships. They claim and made me a believer that diesel fuel doesn't go bad but it starts to grow algae because of moisture that gets into the fuel. I guess the algae actually feeds on the fuel.
If the fuel is scrubbed regularly its shelf life can be many years. The US military is one of their biggest customers.


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## 41south (Dec 4, 2010)

Lots of good points about fuel in this thread. In years past you could leave a diesel setting for years, and with very little work, fire them back off. But with the new ultra low sulphur fuel, this won't work as it used to. I don't expect ultra low to store well for much longer than a year. I have notcied, if it sets in jugs for a few months, water seems to drop out and settle to the bottom.

Ultra low fuel has more inherent water, due to water being used in the sulphur stripping process. That was my fuel supplier's statement, not mine. But I can say for a fact, ultra low is troublesome, it does cause more algae growth, especially in hot weather, and with our heat and humidity, I have first hand knowledge of the trouble with it.

It is easy to find the algae growth, pull the filters, saw them apart, scrape the paper with the back side of a knife blade, if it rolls up a black goo on the blade, it's algae. And it can be stopped, with a algaecide, and this is normally available at farmers Coops or local Cat dealers. Costs us about 2 cents per gallon to deal with the problem.

The standard fuel treatments to prevent gelling in cold weather, won't touch algae. It has to be the algae specific treatment, there are several good ones available.


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## BasecampUSA (Dec 26, 2010)

lotsoflead said:


> *Actually diesel and home heating oil has a shelf life of about 2 yrs, you may get 4 by putting in an additive and stirring the the oil every few months to keep the sludge from settling*. I've been storing 1500 gals here for yrs, but its' completely rotated about every 3 yrs


I don't know where you got that erroneous information...

1. The last job I had was as an Engineer in a Minnesota oil refinery...

2. I'm using some diesel up right now that I have had stored in a 275 gal tank since just before Y2K (Sept 1999). There's a good filter on the hose, and it was treated with a litte bit of diesel biocide when I got it. No problems at all.

NEVER stir the sludge up... you _WANT_ it to settle out, then draw the oil off _ABOVE_ the bottom of the tank... When the tank is about empty, drain the last 5 gallons or so out with the sludge to clean the tank. You can still filter out the sludge and use the oil in a furnace. Filtration is the key. Mineral - based heavier oils don't break down, but the lighter vapors evaporate off - that's the biggest problem. So with lower cetane due to evaporation, you're not getting 100% power you would with fresh fuel, maybe 90-95%. The cooler it is stored air-tight the better... buried tanks are the best. You can bring the cetane back up with a little additive like Power Service etc. -- which will also help keep the pump and injectors clean.

I have 600 gallons of _30 year old heating oil _that I have used in an old diesel tractor here for years... no problems ever! Just filter the heck out of it!

In all we've got 3500 gallons of diesel and heating oil stored up for WTSHTF. Most of it was bought under $2 a gallon back then. It is all for the diesel tractors, diesel VW's (50mpg), and diesel emergency generators here on the homestead.

We use no oil, gas or electrical power to heat with here... it is all solar and wood... if you get cold there is no thermostat, you throw wood in the stove and light it with a match. 16 Acres of forest behind the house, and I can't burn all the free deadwood and snags it produces every year.

Now... What you just stated about 2 years goes for _gasoline_... --MAYBE!

Just last summer, I used 120 gallons of UNTREATED gasoline I got right before Katrina hit (5 years old) in my F-700 farm truck- flatbed dump... I added 1 gallon of fresh super unleaded to each 5 gallons of the 5-year-old stored gas and it ran like a top. No problems, I was hauling gravel to build a farm road here on the homestead, 5 yards at a time from a pit 2 mile round-trip and wanted to use the old gas up...

So, that busted the "2-year gasoline storage" myth for me... it was all stored in metal 55 gallon drums and military "jerry" cans in the coolest part of the equipment shed.

Actual personal experience talking here !... - I wouldn't want to mislead anyone with what I just wrote. Results might vary with others...


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

We use red-dyed diesel in our oil lamps, and the can we're working out of right now, to fill the lamps, was filled 5 years ago and not treated with anything. It works fine in the oil lamps. If someone has a smaller amount their not sure about for a vehicle, they could save it for oil lamps, either for themselves or as a trade item. 

Make sure you have some ventilation while you use it. It makes the air smell a bit oily.


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

BasecampUSA said:


> I don't know where you got that erroneous information...
> 
> 1. The last job I had was as an Engineer in a Minnesota oil refinery...
> 
> ...


 I got most of my erroneous from over 50 yrs working with oil and much more on the net in the past few yrs. People on this board better wake up and do their own research and not pay any attention to what you've stated and i don't care if you was an "Engineer". one great thing about the internet is that you can be anything you want to be, but it don't make you an expert. I'm no expert either and have stored fuel oil for many yrs and I sure know what works the best from experience before the internet was invented.

you want to keep the oil stirred and not let the sludge settle or the bottom or the tank will be rusting out from the inside, if the snow wasn't 6 ft deep on some old tanks, i'd take pictures of some old tanks that have been cut in half and you could see where they are pitted from sludge and moisture laying there.
yrs ago we always installed tanks so that they were tilted to the rear and the sludge-moisture would go to the rear and stay in the tank forever til ir rusted out from the inside, today we tilt them to the front so the moisture comes out. the sludge is stired up today anyway as most pumpers are putting the oil in over 70 gal a minute.

I don't care if everyone of the board says they have oil over 2-5-10 yrs old. people do your own research and talk to your supplier unless he's some sort of a screwball.

here's just some info for the people who care to read facts and not some crap that someone tells about their peoronal experience, but there is plenty of info about shelf life of oil on the web. don't take my word or anyone elses, do your own research before you waste a lot of money.

*What is the Shelf Life or Storage Life of Home Heating Oil?*Diesel fuel, which is basically the same as No. 2 heating oil, is said by sources we've read to have a shelf life of 18-24 months without any fuel additives having been put into the tank. (Diesel fuel is basically No. 2 heating oil PLUS some fuel additives for winter use in vehicle engines).

Additives to diesel fuel are intended to be added when the fuel is put into the tank, not years later, and they claim to preserve the fuel's octane and combustion characteristics.

How can we extend the storage life of heating oil in a tank?
IF someone had put the proper additives into the tank of home heating oil when the fuel was delivered, it could have been reliably stored and then used up to two years later. Contact your heating oil delivery company to ask their recommended products for adding to and protecting the life of heating oil.

Can a heating oil additive "restore" old heating oil and make it good to burn in our oil burner?
Can an oil additive rejuvenate old stored heating oil? It's unlikely but we'd need to ask the chemical engineers who make those products. We speculate that products intended to be added to Diesel or perhaps to heating oil are intended to be added as preservatives at the time of delivery of the oil and that they are not designed to restore or rejuvenate old heating oil.

We have found no indication that adding a diesel fuel additive, or a heating fuel additive such as 4-in-one hot™ (sludge breakup and water remover) to heating oil will "restore" the original properties of oil that has been stored for a decade.

Remember that what was in the ground for a million years was not No 2 heating oil, it was a gooey ugly sludge crud that was then refined or cooked and purified at the oil refinery.

Abandoning Commercial & Residential Underground Oil Storage Tanks (UST) - Procedures & Regulations


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

lotsoflead said:


> I don't care if everyone of the board says they have oil over 2-5-10 yrs old. people do your own research


And what is research if not asking people with first hand experience? :scratch

Many, but not all "experts" are in the business of their area of expertise. They are looking to sell their product whatever it may be. Why? So they can sell more. Experts tell us to throw away canned food that reaches it's expiration date because it's no longer any good. I'd be willing to bet _no one_ on this board does that. Why? Because we know it just isn't true.

I'm another one with old fuel. I filled a tank at our "hunting cabin" in '04. Unlike what we have here, it was not treated with anything. I didn't know about treating fuel back then. It's still half full. That furnace gets run 3-4 times a year and as of Dec. '10, it has fired right up every time. I don't know if we have paid experts on the board but what we have are folks that have been "doing" for 10-20-30 years and if something has worked well for that long, as far as I'm concern that's better than the expert that may have another agenda.


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

UncleJoe said:


> And what is research if not asking people with first hand experience? :scratch
> 
> Many, but not all "experts" are in the business of their area of expertise. They are looking to sell their product whatever it may be. Why? So they can sell more. Experts tell us to throw away canned food that reaches it's expiration date because it's no longer any good. I'd be willing to bet _no one_ on this board does that. Why? Because we know it just isn't true.
> 
> I'm another one with old fuel. I filled a tank at our "hunting cabin" in '04. Unlike what we have here, it was not treated with anything. I didn't know about treating fuel back then. It's still half full. That furnace gets run 3-4 times a year and as of Dec. '10, it has fired right up every time. I don't know if we have paid experts on the board but what we have are folks that have been "doing" for 10-20-30 years and if something has worked well for that long, as far as I'm concern that's better than the expert that may have another agenda.


 If someone asks a question on one of these boards and takes the info and runs with it without doing anymore reseach, I'd say they were in a lot of trouble if the SHTF and all they had was info from some expert on a chat board.what can I say ,do what you want to do if it floats your boat.There are people on the net that have been doing many things for many yrs according to them, that don't make it right If you think he's right and I'm full of crap. great it's no money out of my pocket. Like i said people do your own reaserch after you've absorbed all the info here.

http://amsca.com/files/Download/Fuel_news_long_term_storage_diesel.pdf
http://www.lcbamarketing.com/long_term_fuel_storage.htm
http://www.ehow.com/about_6696306_diesel-fuel-storage-treatment.html
http://www.turbodieselregister.com/...90887-diesel-fuel-quality-storage-issues.html


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## Jason (Jul 25, 2009)

Old gas engine farm tractors made before about 1950 were made to run on sub standard gasoline. Typically you start them on gas then switched to "tractor fuel", distillate fuel, or even kerosene once the engine was warmed up, then switched back to gasoline a few minutes before you shut the tractor down so that the carb was full of gasoline for the next start up. We have a 1949 Farmall M that we run on gasoline that my uncle gets from a car dealership he works at when they drain a car's tank for whatever reason. Some of it has a little water in it and different issues like that. We let it settle in drums, siphon off the gas, and it runs fine. 

Just a suggestion if you have old gas around. You could get an old tractor yourself if you need one or it may make a really good barter item, i.e. the guy with the tractor and land has no gas, you give him gas, and he gives you some of the food he's able to grow.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Old gas will in, my experience, run in older carburated vechicles, the problem is start up. a splash of fresh gas down the carb throat is usually enough to get the engine fired.
Diesel fuel fomulation has changed drasticly in the last 10 years. old fuel(from 10 years ago) may still run an engine, but todays formulations prolly won't work very well in 10 years. things just aren't made to last anymore.


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

Tirediron said:


> Old gas will in, my experience, run in older carburated vechicles, the problem is start up. a splash of fresh gas down the carb throat is usually enough to get the engine fired.
> Diesel fuel fomulation has changed drasticly in the last 10 years. old fuel(from 10 years ago) may still run an engine, but todays formulations prolly won't work very well in 10 years. things just aren't made to last anymore.


exactly. and in this area, we can't buy anything but Biofuel.


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## lexsurivor (Jul 5, 2010)

Gas just jumped 20 cents overnight in lexington.


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## BasecampUSA (Dec 26, 2010)

lotsoflead said:


> People on this board better wake up and do their own research and not pay any attention to what you've stated and i don't care if you was an "Engineer". one great thing about the internet is that you can be anything you want to be, but it don't make you an expert. I'm no expert either and have stored fuel oil for many yrs and I sure know what works the best from experience before the internet was invented.


Read the bottom of my post again:

_Actual personal experience talking here !... - I wouldn't want to mislead anyone with what I just wrote. Results might vary with others... _


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## PamsPride (Dec 21, 2010)

Gas was DOWN .10-.15 in my area, depending on the station. I even saw one place that had it for $2.98. It was as high as $3.15 around here at some stations a couple days ago.


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## goshengirl (Dec 18, 2010)

Ours went the other way, Pam. $2.94 a couple days ago, $3.17 today.


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## ajsmith (Feb 1, 2010)

We've been at $3.24 for about two weeks, we're due for another increase any day.:gaah:


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## IrritatedWithUS (Jan 9, 2011)

It's $3.26 here and diesel is $3.49


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