# After Armageddon



## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

I was watching "After Armageddon" and it got me thinking...
With refugees streaming out of the cities and only those whom were prepared would have made it that far to be in the outskirts or rural areas, what would be the means and strategy to take back the cities from the looters and dangerous people.

This is a strategic decision game, a planning game, an EXERCISE.

Suppose your community ended up intercepting these refugees and they couldn't be turned away? Suppose they were incorporated into your community because they had skills value? 
The electrical power is out, the water is not flowing, no internet, radio or television. No food or anything on store shelves. The pandemic has passed and the survivors have had to flee because of the dangerous people. 

My Executive decision would be to reoccupy the cities because of the existence of the infrastructure. Let us develop a strategy to take back the city and restore a civilized environment. 

Questions are: Take it by section/zone? Or by structures and importance of the infrastructure?
Take the freeways and main streets first? Or the most direct routes?

Do we have or can we develop the skills to get the power, water and sewage back online? 

The object of this exercise decision game is how to, not a debate of should we. 

I will add my version as a reply.


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## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

A reconnaissance element would sneak into the downtown area of (CITY) and maintain stealth and radio contact, with daily sit-rep reports.
After "enemy" strengths and tactical procedures are noted, a small strike force is assembled from the community and refugees. All are now "the community."

Targeted areas are now occupied. Our key areas are the City Hall and the Police Station and Sheriff's Office. Reason: Infrastructure and information offices and access to locations of service areas and tools as well as equipment. Then we establish the supply line, fuel, food and fresh water and provisions for the occupation. 

Secure a line of communication: A secure route with route security as best as we can. 

All hostile elements are dispatched and no incarcerations at this time. It is a war zone. 

Once a building, or block is occupied, it must be secured. That means keeping out all unauthorized people and hostile elements. 

There will be "civilians on the battlefield." That means innocent people who are not hostile and are not looters. They will be looking for protection and possibly salvation from the chaos and the event. Anyone with a "marketable skill" will need to be incorporated immediately to further the strategy. For people who are too young, too uneducated, or too old; they will be transported to the outskirts, or sequestered in an occupied building which is easily secured and defended. 

Once the service crews have the power, water and sewage restored, the recon-S&K teams will hold an area block by block. Support crews will secure the necessary provisions, or produce those provisions for the main body. Route security will be assisted by service crews to block the onramps and off ramps and to clear the obstructions from the freeways and the main streets. 

Any contact with other cities or communities with similar situations or strategies will require a Liaison Diplomacy Team. We are not at war with the world, just the dangerous and hostile elements. We will assist them and ask for their assistance in anyway which is feasible to restore the CITY. The idea is to re-establish a civil society and a civilization in the form of a municipal community. 

Once the Library is open and people can settle without a hostile environment, once we have established a safe and secure environment and freedom of movement and a reasonable freedom from harm, we can then establish a city government, commerce and industry. 

(This would make and amusing video game. Similar to Fallout.)


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

The first step is to figure out if it is worth attempting. If you can't get the water and other utilities working, why bother? If you can get those working, then the utilities become your first objective. Once the utilities are back on, the rest becomes easier.


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## cqp33 (Apr 2, 2012)

my thought process is that the utilities would remain on if a financial collapse because the people that run them know that without them things will only get worse on a grand scale. The only way they would go down is a EMP or cutoff by "big brother"! IMO

But I will play the game!

Intel would be the biggest factor for creating a plan to retake CITY. Find out where the occupying force/forces are headquartered at and isolate them first, that will separate the dedicated ones from the opportunist's. Opportunist's might only be with them because it was the "easy" way to survive where the dedicated to power ones require immediate dispatch because they would only try to manipulate any situation to further their power base and therefore they are immediate threats to any future security of CITY. Once they are isolated a block by block take back of the CITY can begin! Early on in the take back stage a sheriff should be the nominated/assigned until Government can be set up in a stable manner. At this stage martial law would be the rule until a sense of normalcy can be obtained within CITY. Strike teams would then be assigned to the sheriff along with stationary perimeter security teams to keep areas secure. At this stage planning and communications between security, strike teams and the sheriff are essential for both intel gathering of safe/secure areas and any movement outside the perimeter within sight of the perimeter security teams. This type of information would help develop a plan for the next days "activities" especially for the strike teams that are taking back city blocks in CITY.

The concentration of area to retake would be towards the utilities then moving onto any manufacturing areas to allow things to get back up and running again. Then after utilities and manufacturing setting up a Government for the CITY could begin to be established!


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## Plainsman (Nov 29, 2013)

My first step would be to lay siege to CITY, considering that hostiles will get weaker with time through hunger, while the surrounding forces have the resources of the countryside to re-provision. Deserters and defectors from CITY will be a source of information on CITY forces, as will besiegers' scouts infiltrating CITY and reporting back.

In the fullness of time, besiegers will have options: an expensive urban battle, building by building, street by street or a coup d' etat, carried out by disgruntled CITY force officers with encouragement and assistance provided by besiegers agents.


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## piglett (Dec 10, 2010)

Geek999 said:


> The first step is to figure out if it is worth attempting. If you can't get the water and other utilities working, why bother?


correct a modern city is IMHO worthless without power & running water
a modern city will be a good place go to die without these

on the other hand small towns with plenty of good farm land & plenty of places to forage for wild roots /plants will have a very high value

you can have all the cities you want
cities bring nothing to the table in a post SHTF world
they are not worth retaking


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

If you can get the utilities running again, then it would save a lot of lives to have that infrastructure working.


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## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

This is a how to exercise. The decision of the "elders" has been to retake CITY for community security and to re-establish commerce and industry. 

** domestic population reduced by 60% and no national power grid or electronic communications. No interstate commerce at all. 

cqp33, intel and recon are paramount to the operation. I never considered "opportunists" and dedicated. I suppose that in the post disaster scenario that the surviving bandits would organize into a faction. But is there honor amongst thieves? How strong or tight would be their bonds? 

Plainsman, siege? What would be your strategic approach? Scouts and recon for intel, defectors for intel is a standard of S-2, so good point. 

Geek999, re-read post #2, that's what I would do in my initial approach. However, no plan ever survives first contact and no amount of careful planning will ever compensate for just plain dumb luck.

My idea is that I would secure CITY and re-establish civil order for commerce and industry. Then the standard of living can flourish.


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## Resto (Sep 7, 2012)

IMO Urban Combat is an Expensive Venture, in terms of casualties,I wouldn't do it.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

I don't see the point in retaking the cities. I don't see why the city's infrastructure will be more valuable than suburban or rural infrastructure. Most people won't make it out alive. There won't be enough available food for those that do. Not unless there's a farm and crops were already planted before it hit the fan. 

Most people won't be in the position to take in anybody. Even if I had two year's of food and a garden planted, I'd be taking a serious risk in helping anybody. Unless I was looking for a wife for myself or for a mate for one of my adult children.


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## Navajo (Mar 4, 2013)

Let it burn.....let then die off...give it a few months and you can walk in and start rummaging thru the remains for valuables.

You go in you have to feed, cloth, medicate all those people...where do you get all that stuff? Much less dispose of waste, what do the cities produce that you need if you are self substaining on the countryside.

After being in Iraq and being part of CPA and seeing what it taked in manpower and money to "secure and save " a city...where will you get those kind of resources "After Armageddon"? Thosands of people and hundreds of millions of dollar just for one city.


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## Cast-Iron (Nov 8, 2013)

I'd have to agree with many of the earlier posts that don't favor attempting to take or hold a city in a post apocalyptic world. They wouldn't offer any real benefit to me. In fact they would likely introduce complications and risks I'd rather avoid.

My first line of defense would be separation and concealment. I wouldn't be looking for a fight, but I would defend what I had to with the necessary application of force. I figure that if I am at least a three to four day walk from any population center, well off of any major road or highway, have access to a sustainable potable water supply, good soils, good hunting and completely off grid, then I'd be less of a target for any opportunistic hoard. 

Fortunately I have not one but three such locations which offer me varying degrees of these particular attributes. Two of them are in an area which is surrounded by properties long held by extended family. Most of these folks being quite proficient with many different types of weapons. I figure if things got really ugly, the lone wolves out there won't have a very high survival rate. For me, being surrounded by people I can count on gives me considerable peace of mind.


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## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

Because in this scenario the gangs and bandits will move into your smaller and isolated community, you'll be outmanned and outgunned. The CITY has the needed industrial infrastructure for manufacturing and an oil refinery.

It's an exercise on how to, the decision was made to take it, not move your family into it. Now, how will you take it?


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

What infrastructure does a city offer that makes it desirable. Cities are consumption zones not production zones. They are efficient at housing and providing for large numbers of people who in turn provide highly skilled functions. After a SHTF those highly skilled functions will be worthless because you lack the division of labor to make them possible. A modern cities infrastructure is geared toward a economic system that can't exist if society/the economy collapses. 

Cities usually do not produce food, and need to import food along with water, power, fuel, etc. Compounding this cities provide these and other utilities efficiently by having large volume systems to provide them, these systems need large numbers of skilled workers, often far away from the center city to provide these service. 

Of course if you are talking about a plague then you also need to contemplate huge numbers of decaying bodies that need too be dealt with ASAP, again requiring huge manpower. This would be true to some degree in any SHTF where a city had to be abandoned.

Power, and with it water and sewage, will be the last thing that the Government allows to fail, however, if enough of the skilled laborers who keep these utilities flees either because they are not being payed or, even more likely, because they need to protect and care for their families then I think a failure of power is very possible. And without power most cities would be useless.

I think the only "cities" that would be potentially salvagable is small town sized cities in the mid-west close in proximity to farm land. Large buildings are useless without power and so cities with buildings of no more than 4-5 stories, low populations, and local utilities close to town might be worth looking at.


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## piglett (Dec 10, 2010)

Navajo said:


> what do the cities produce that you need if you are self substaining on the countryside.


CORRECT
what do they produce?
most life long city people would be worthless out in the sticks where i will be dug in. so unless i find a nurse or doctor all the rest can stay where they are.
a city draws from the countryside both food & in many cases water.
without power how can you even live in a modern city?
i would go in to see what tools/machines i could bring out yes
but the city people IMHO would have less value than a country person

lets look at it like this
say i ended up in need of a wife
i would rather have a rather plain looking country girl
over a really hot looking city girl post SHTF

the country girl already has some skills that we will need so we can make it out of this mess alive. i would need her help & i don't need to hear "oh guns are bad, never been around them in my life". 
i say leave the city people in THEIR city
let them sort out their own city thankyou


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## Gians (Nov 8, 2012)

I haven't seen the show, but to play the game that a city must be taken.... I think part of the military would still be in tact, even if only 5 or10% of troops survived a pandemic, they would have real combat experience and be the best resource. Towns and cities would probably have neighborhood checkpoints set up to try and stop any virus or looting from spreading. Might even be exit checkpoints to prevent people from leaving certain infected or lawless cities. Whether it's part of the current military or a newly formed regional group, my guess is that would be the best choice. Society would have to slowly reform itself, as it did after other plagues.


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## Tim_SkyWatcher (Oct 23, 2013)

Geek999 said:


> The first step is to figure out if it is worth attempting. If you can't get the water and other utilities working, why bother? If you can get those working, then the utilities become your first objective. Once the utilities are back on, the rest becomes easier.


Exactly! What good are the facilities if you don't have the . . . uh, "facilities?"


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## TimB (Nov 11, 2008)

So in your exercise, is this scenario after the gangs have exhausted the food and water supplies available to them in all the stores and warehouses in a big city? 
Tough call but from where I'm located and where I'll wind up post-SHTF, I wouldn't be interested in taking a city. Just MHO.


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## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

Gians said:


> ...Society would have to slowly reform itself, as it did after other plagues...


Excellent observation, the COMMUNITY would provide the security until the residence of the CITY could operate the infrastructure themselves. The other posterers who opted to small town it got overwhelmed by well supplied and well informed gangs of looter bandits with the element of surprise and numbers. After re-securing the CITY, COMMUNITY connected with a similar COMMUNITY B and found they had networked with COMMUNITY C & D.

A Regional Task Force was set up and eventually COMMUNITIES took down the looter bandits and had a bunch of new stuff which had been liberated from dead owners.


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

VoorTrekker said:


> The decision of the "elders" has been to retake CITY for community security and to re-establish commerce and industry.


Time to replace the elders IMO. They aren't thinking clearly.

Just look at some of the footage from Berlin in 1945. The costs would just be too high to go door to door in an attempt to secure a large city. There is very little in the way of industry inside a densely populated city. Commerce? That can be started anywhere. If there are people in need of something, commerce will happen.

It would be much easier and more productive to secure a rural county and start from there. Once you have a firm base established you are prepared to deal with the groups of gangs in the city that are running out of resources and beginning to reach out to secure more.

Sorry, I can't visualize any scenario that would make taking back a city worth the cost.


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

The 'elders' obviously know something they're keeping from the general populace... 

... the food stores are near empty and this is just an attempt at population control! 

:gaah:

Admiral Akbar says,"it's a TRAP!" :teehee:


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## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

You didn't read the first post. Population reduction. This isn't a debate on should, it is a strategic exercise on how to. Thanks anyway.

Maybe the players should pick a city. 

Los Angles?
Houston?
Portland, OR?
Kansas City, KS/MO?
Atlanta?
Philadelphia?
Pittsburgh?
Phoeinix?

One of these will be our model. Which one do you prefer?


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## crabapple (Jan 1, 2012)

I would let the skilled workers stay & work for food & rent.
Unskilled would have to fill in the gaps or leave.
I would forget the city, write it off as a total lost & start over with the out lay communities.
But I never liked Big Cities an ways.


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## Jimmy24 (Apr 20, 2011)

The utility issue is paramount. Without electricity, nothing happens as far as recovering the populace. 

And I don't think anyone has a clue what it will take to get the electricity back on. It won't be go in take the city back and turn the switch on. 

As far as utility operators keeping the power on regardless, that is false. Yes they may want to keep it on, but there is much more to that equation. What of their fuel providers? Power plants don't just sit there and hum along, they require massive amounts of maintenance. If the turbines are off and not on rollout, they will have to be overhauled, MASSIVE UNDERTAKING. Gas fired plants will only run as long as the pipes to them remain full of NG. Nuclear plants for as long as their current rods will run. Coal plants generally keep 60-90 days of coal in the stocks. Coal is normally delivered in one of two ways. Rail or barge.

Now if there has been lawlessness rampant for say more than a year or two, the infrastructure for the power distribution will likely be in shambles. I can just see power poles being taken down in the cold areas for firewood. It takes poles, wire and associated materials to put them back in some sort of working order.

And it takes skilled folks to do these tasks and they will likely be few and far between.

Having said all this, the planning to "take back" and hold the cities is nothing compared to the repair and getting the infrastructure back in some semblance of order. Taking them back will be the easy part....

Jimmy


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## crabapple (Jan 1, 2012)

Jimmy24, I agree.
One of the many problems with the Iraq War was that we (USA) thought we could just reconnect a few lines & out laying areas would have power.But the Infrastructure was so bad/poor under the Bath party that we had to rebuild it, which took months, not days.


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## Jimmy24 (Apr 20, 2011)

crabapple said:


> Jimmy24, I agree.
> One of the many problems with the Iraq War was that we (USA) thought we could just reconnect a few lines & out laying areas would have power.But the Infrastructure was so bad/poor under the Bath party that we had to rebuild it, which took months, not days.


Yep and that was with a trained work force and materials being brought in. With no manufacturing ability (read no power), materials will be scarce in a post SHTF scenario. A 45 ton turbine shaft is just the beginning.

As much as I try to plan for whatever comes along, I surely don't want it (reset button or whatever) to take place....

Lots of folks just don't understand what just a one year shutdown will mean in the long run...

Jimmy


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

IMHO

A city is a death trap that will suck up your resources and you'll have limited open land for farming to replenish your food supply. 

Water and wastewater treatment plants can actually run "automatically" for a period of time without human intervention.

Water and wastewater treatment plants usually have back up diesel or natural gas generators.

Most water and wastewater treatment plants will be located in the suburbs, not in the high population centers.



You want the city? I'll let you have it. Let's see if you want to keep it. 

Too large of a perimeter for you to guard securely. I can easily slip in and out at will.

Your water source is my number one priory. Electrical #2 and Wastewater Treatment plant is of little concern to me (no water no sewer).

Public water distribution systems work on pressure. No pressure no water. 

Most fire hydrants have an underground shut off value. Use a screwdriver to pry off the access lid. Fill with concrete (the best option) or anything that restricts access to the valve (or a rigged hand grenade would be a plus). Remove about 8 bolts on the fire hydrant to remove top half. Remove the water shut off stem too. My crew will take the parts with them. We'll hit as many fire hydrants that are as far away as possible from your water pumps that we can in a few nights. 30-06 rounds into the base of any Elevated water towers will slowly eliminate them as a water source. You now have a water pressure problem.  We'll keep hitting your fire hydrants until we figure we are pressing our luck and then will move on to phase 2.

Phase 2. The distraction. 

When you flush a stool the flow runs down hill to the treatment plant. It isn't practical to slope a pipe until the pipe is deep underground. So lift stations are used to pump the sewage up so it cans start running downhill to the next lift station and so forth until it arrives at the wastewater treatment plant. My crews start destroying the electrical controls to the lift stations. 

Now I got your security stretched trying to guard the Cities perimeter, fire hydrants, guarding repair crews and the sewer infrastructure. On to Phase 3.

Phase 3. The Coup de grace. 

Red teams are positioned within rifle range of your water pumps. Blue teams take out the electric feed to your pumps. The Red teams locate the water pumps standby generators by their sound. Red teams place a few 30-06 rounds into the generators engine blocks and then withdraw.

As time passes the Blue team will continue disrupting your electrical source (taking down power poles, shoot electrical transformers and isolators) and destroy fire hydrants.

You now have no power to pump water and even if you did no pressure to deliver. No water equals unsustainable situation. Hey. You're the one that wanted the city.

Red teams are setup at concealed choke points to encourage any leaving Citizens to return to the city. I want to keep as many citizens in the city as possible to deplete their resources, cause strife and disease. 

I have just defeated a larger force with minimum exposure on my part.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

I read the OP and gave it some thought as an exercise.. then i read the thread. what i come with is the best lesson that can be learned from the exercise is that there is no good reason to try and retake a city once it has stopped functioning.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

*Only it it is an industrial base*

The only redeeming feature of a city would be if it contained industry that could be put to use


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## partdeux (Aug 3, 2011)

how many people know how to keep a nuclear power plant from melting down, much less running?

How about processing sewage?

Water?

Electrical distribution?

If it gets to Armageddon level, you had better be well clear of hungry desperate society with enough skills to survive without ANYTHING provided by anybody else. I don't know about you, but I would be unlikely to survive at that level.


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## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

Many of you are thinking as a goldfish in a bowl. I was thinking on a higher strategic level, like a whale in the ocean. 

TheLazyL, are you saying that you would make war against the CITY after it has been secured, or that you would destroy it so that it cannot be re-inhabited? 

The criminal element wouldn't have technicians and engineers to restart power plants and utilities. The incident is only weeks after the pandemic ends.


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## crabapple (Jan 1, 2012)

IMHO,
No, the criminal element would take over & enslave the skilled, rape & kill the rest.
Who was it that said "We hang little thieves & elected the BIG thieves to office."
Mob boss would run the city.
The Lazy L was showing you how that Mob Boss would take over.


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## Jimmy24 (Apr 20, 2011)

VoorTrekker said:


> Many of you are thinking as a goldfish in a bowl. I was thinking on a higher strategic level, like a whale in the ocean.


It takes many fish bowls to make an ocean.....there are a lot more goldfish than there are whales....

Your whole scenario is a non-starter to most people here and for good reason.

Jimmy


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## BlueShoe (Aug 7, 2010)

If it's a city, there will be people there who were part of the power structure whether in management or security of it. That structure will take control again as best it can because they have the ambition with connections & experience. What parts they don't control they'll have a working agreement with the groups who do whether they're evil or virtuous. 

IMO, the more likely scenario is establishing a group to grab a part of the city with a weak control structure. And that depends on your ability to manage people. And the corruption in all groups will be rampant.


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## Hooch (Jul 22, 2011)

I dont want to be in a city now and especially after an shtf event...

that said...since this is an exercise in who to..I really like the plan lazy l had. 

What came to my mind is to inflict some sort of poison or drug to incapicitate the bad guys. Find out how how,what n where they are drinking ( probably eaisest way) from or food sorce and drop a bunch of LSD or whatever drug or poison I could into or on it. Or maybe leave a truck full of goodies, make it look like it was a great find that folks will want to consume. Come back later at a time after the poison/drug took out the majority...do something like what lazy L suggested to further create hardship n chaos and to weed out the rest. 

Can you imagine a group of bad guys frying on LSD or shrooms..I wouldnt have to fire a shot, they'd mostly all kill themselves or eachother...

But Ill stick to the countyside n what I know...In a year most of them will be dead for lack of knowledge n skills anyways...the country still has it's share of bad folks with skills that have to be...


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## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

Thanks for playing the game. Next time I have a good strategy I will refrain from sharing with this board. Your opinions were expressed, but facts were omitted and the evil intent of some posters completely missed the point of the exercise. Should any of you ever need to respond to a strategic action, I believe your best course of action would be to avoid and evade and never return.


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## Hooch (Jul 22, 2011)

Wasnt your point of the exercise to retake a city from the bad guys to reestablish utilities, security n community at some point?? or did I miss something?? The stragetic planning could be fun I spose..and worthwhile to ponder. I see lots of folks are scratching therir heads at the city idea because most would never find cities places they want to be even in good times other than a visit or business. Evil intent?? err....? can you elaborate?? lol?


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## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

This exercise would probably be better suited for the combat arms thinking people, apparently it doesn't appeal to civilians. The exercise was a "how to do this" not a debate over moot points and inhibitions. The exercise was a failure and I withdrawal the effort. This has become pointless and I will no longer share any ideas requiring thought. 

If you would like to know my course of action for this exercise I will share it with you, Hooch.


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## Country Living (Dec 15, 2009)

You're right... you had the wrong audience. IMHO you were focusing on adverse possession of a city and wanted to know the hurdles that would be faced on such an endeavor.

Those of us in rural communities see the cities as a death trap. There are limited skill sets in large cities, lack of sustainable food and water, potentially lack of sanitation, and a strong dependency on the supply chain. Unless you're in a strong gun-rights state, most of the city people don't know how to defend their homes and families (don't the rest of you ding me on this comment - I know a lot of people in cities have guns; the majority, however, depend on police protection which won't be readily available after an event).

Trying to take back a city for no other reason than to take control of it seems a bit over the top. Unless the city has sustainable food and water sources, as well as septic and sanitation, it won't survive much less thrive. 

The rural communities will not be able to support the cities because the machinery and fuel needed for extensive crops and livestock may not be available. Then there is the logistical problem of how do you move crops and livestock from the farm and ranch communities to the processing / distribution points in the cities. 

Had your question been more general on how to make at least a section of a city survivable, then you would have gotten different answer. I understand your frustration. One of the nice things about this forum is the diverse backgrounds sharing their opinions.


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## BlueShoe (Aug 7, 2010)

The problem with cities is there are people who live there who don't have much to lose in life or much to live for. Most of us have more to lose than they do, which puts us against someone who's more determined than us who will do stupid/crazy things just because they were raised doing it and are good at it if they've lived.


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## Hooch (Jul 22, 2011)

VoorTrekker : yea I would if your willing to share still...if not its ok but im wondering what you had in mind.


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## Jimmy24 (Apr 20, 2011)

VoorTrekker said:


> Thanks for playing the game. Next time I have a good strategy I will refrain from sharing with this board. Your opinions were expressed, but facts were omitted and the evil intent of some posters completely missed the point of the exercise. Should any of you ever need to respond to a strategic action, I believe your best course of action would be to avoid and evade and never return.


Look, others expressing their opinions have the same rights you do. Sounds to me you don't respect anything anyone else says. Heck you got a ton of response. Just because it didn't all agree, doesn't make it evil...

Whining will get you no where.

If your skin is that thin, you might want to take your own advise and not post your opinions.

Evil intent!? Really? Come on man, lighten up.

Jimmy


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## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

Hooch said:


> VoorTrekker : yea I would if your willing to share still...if not its ok but im wondering what you had in mind.


Well, Hooch, here it is:

Okay. CITY has a navigable waterway which has proximity to the ocean, a canal for ocean vessels and two major railways running through the industrial section. It has one refinery and varied manufacturing aspects.

The mission is to secure the CITY from further encroachment and occupation by hostile and criminal elements and to help the residence whom are capable of securing their own safe and secure environment and freedom of movement. There would be capable people who will return to fill these functions.

COMMUNITY is NOT MOVING to the CITY, they are safeguarding their own interests by pacifying the CITY.

So here's my strategy for the CITY:

*Recon Team 1* scouts a safe route into the city along a waterway (a canal with both natural and paved walls) and collects data on foot and vehicle traffic in the proximity of the waterway. 
*Recon Team 2* moves into the CITY and scouts a route to the Police Station and the Jail. They occupy by force a vacant building and establish surveillance operations on movements and disposition of hostile forces and non-combatants. 
All radios are set to illegal frequency above channel 16 Motorola or other radios available.

*Recon Team 3* moves along Team 1 route and sets up 180 degrees from Team 2. Team 3 establishes surveillance operations same as Team 2.

*HQ* draws up plan for necessary forces in numbers and equipment for the first strike.

*#1* If there are large numbers of hostile forces,* Force 1* will use snipers and ambushes at appropriate hours of the day according to tactical necessity. 
When hostile forces have sufficient atrophy, *Force 2* will begin small unit engagements at key points for decimating hostile forces' numbers.

Force 2 will then occupy by force the key terrain features needed for tactical and maneuver superiority. (Police and Fire stations, Jail and the downtown hospital, church, Library, etc.)

Force 1 will expand their perimeter of influence and continue with sniping and ambushing with Force 3 as the maneuver elements.

*Liaison Team 1* will coordinate with local civilians to assess and classify all non-combatants who are peaceful elements. Should there be no peaceful elements CITY becomes a Free Fire Zone. Geneva Conventions do not apply as this is a domestic incident and a support operation.

The use of Force 1, 2, 3 will occupy by force the key terrain features and the route into the CITY, a rear guard composed of non essential people will hold the seized key terrain features. Should the hostile forces attempt counter-attacks or retaliatory operations, FORCEs will set up a defensive position in order to engage hostile forces and decimate their numbers through direct contact. (Defensive Operations.)

CITY REFUGEEs whom were intercepted by COMMUNITY would begin the inhabitant and infrastructure domestic operations. (Power, water, sewage and street sanitation and recovery.) CITY Inhabitants would also establish their own internal security and administration via carefully selected capable personnel. Since politics, PC and "sensitivity" created the former dysfunctional environment, these negative qualities would need to be eliminated.

FORCEs would establish a GRID layout of zones, FORCE teams would do a search and clear, sweep and clear and engage all elements in the free fire zone. Since recon teams had given a number count on hostile forces, body counts could help direct the next course of action. Hostile forces may have night vision devices, but without training and proper batteries, their is no guarantee of the hostile forces effectiveness for night operation. Since power is out, most looting and scavenging will be likely taking place during daylight hours after sunrise and until twilight.

Tactics dictate that any stealth engagements would be preferable to firearm contact in order to keep enemy casualties unknown to the hostile forces. Daylight ambushes at likely supply points should also be effective as well as ambushes as near to hostile forces bases as possible. If Hostile forces are mobile and not making permanent camps and bases, all ambushes will be at likely supply points and avenues of approach. (supermarket, liquor stores, big box stores, etc.)

*#2* If hostile forces are not numerically superior, or are scattered and independent of one another, sniper and ambush operations would be conducted by FORCEs until key terrain features are occupied and secured. Liaison Team 1 would still conduct support and recovery operations as in scenario #1. 
FORCE 1, key terrain features. FORCE 2, ambushes and avenues of approach. FORCE 3 GRID sweep and clear of zones. 
RECON Teams would be reorganized into surveillance and observation posts within the CITY and a Force MP for route security from COMMUNITY to CITY. 
Medical and resupply directed out of COMMUNITY HQ. Tactical Operations Center will move from COMMUNITY into CITY as soon as a key building is occupied and secured. CITY hospital will be used once it is occupied and secured. Any non-specialized REFUGEEs will be used for labor and observation points and the Inhabitants Command Center of Operations.

Once the hostile forces numbers have been sufficiently reduced or nearly completely eliminated, Inhabitants will re-establish an internal security force and continue with recovery and refit operations and activities. Daily SITREPs and communication will be conducted until CITY can ensure and guarantee that bandit and looter operations have ceased. FORCE 1, 2, 3 and Recon Teams will return to COMMUNITY and stand down. Liaison Team will use a volunteer force to observe and report the status of CITY, a SPOOK Team will also monitor the CITY in a most clandestine and covert manner.

End of Operation RESTORE CITY.


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## helicopter5472 (Feb 25, 2013)

Damn, that would make a good game for X-box


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## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

Thank you, helicopter5472, now will one of those savvy computer whippersnappers get on it!?


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## Hooch (Jul 22, 2011)

Wow...very detailed! Thankyou for sharing


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## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

Hooch said:


> Wow...very detailed! Thankyou for sharing


 :kiss:

You're welcome. It's a tentative battle sketch. If it were really put into detail, it would be about twelve pages. All of the combat arms veterans here can attest to that. What really gets into detail is the communications: codes, frequencies, security (passwords, number combinations, etc.), the service and support.  When I was an infantryman squad member I remember reading just the unclassified pages of a battle plan for a patrol/raid, it was a few pages of stuff.


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## suasponte2 (Jan 24, 2012)

It all sounds great if you had the manpower that was trained and the proper equipment. You would need to move a sizable force...usually not a reconassiance job unless you are doing a reconassiance in force (company level or higher). 

Securing a building in a hostile location takes a seizure and support team in tow. Your logistical train would have to be established along the route since if you encounter heavy resistance you're going to get overran. Unless you are using encrypted comms they will get intercepted. 

Now I'm not busting out anyone, but having been in both Afghanistan and Iraq it was easy to plan but a lot harder to execute and maintain. The facts backing this up is the timeframe we spent in both areas. And we never really maintained anything without superior air support or fire support. Take it from guys in FOBs that were attacked professionally and the only thing that stopped a complete overran situation was the use of Apaches and preplotted indirect fires. 

In this type of situation you are without that extra aide and support, and not to exclude trained personnel that understand the tactics themselves.


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## suasponte2 (Jan 24, 2012)

My apologies, I did not answer your question. Unless the city had actual value, it's not worth taking. Too costly (think Fallujah 1). We ended up pulling out with a great loss of great men. Better to set blocking points along the main routes out of the city. Using natural features as obstacles (rivers, bad terrain, etc...) and strong point them with jesrsey barriors, fallen trees, spike strips made of tire strips or wood with heavy nails, and covering good fields of fire so no one can bypass it. And at the actual checkpoint, Good covered positions with fields of fires, 

For comms, use set brevity codes, channel hopping at set intervals, and time windows. 

Roving mobile patrols along side access routes...you can send smaller 2-4man teams in town to gain Intel with planned comm windows and report formats. They infil and exfil along planned routes.

I could go on, but I think a point was made based on my own experiences and opinion. Just my two cents for what it's worth.

RLTW!


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## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

suasponte2 said:


> ...Too costly (think Fallujah 1).
> Roving mobile patrols along side access routes...you can send smaller 2-4man teams in town to gain Intel with planned comm windows and report formats. They infil and exfil along planned routes....


Good plan for the recon operation, but...



suasponte2 said:


> It all sounds great if you had the manpower that was trained and the proper equipment. You would need to move a sizable force...usually not a reconassiance job unless you are doing a reconassiance in force (company level or higher)....
> ...Securing a building in a hostile location takes a seizure and support team in tow.
> ...In this type of situation you are without that extra aide and support, and not to exclude trained personnel that understand the tactics themselves.


In this scenario, we are not a modern bureaucratic army, the population of the CITY has been greatly reduced and the purpose of COMMUNITY responding is that the hostile elements will arrive eventually and sooner than expected. It is one of those must do situations.

COMMUNTIY is not engaging Al Queda, or Taliban, or SpetzNaz. They are engaging multiple criminal factions whom are unaligned, disorganized and possibly hostile to one another. And before the hostiles can identify the opposing force decimating them, they will accuse one another and act on that assumption.

That is why I planned on ambushes and snipers.


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## Gians (Nov 8, 2012)

:scratch what totally killed off the US military and other law enforcement? If the virus was that bad then any organized crime group would be decimated too, perhaps more so without meds..no?


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## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

Find the television special "After Armageddon" and view it to get a grasp for this exercise. It was a well researched and detailed presentation. I saw it on satellite so I don't remember if it was NatGeo, NGC, or NGW, or Discovery, or Science, or History or H2, or Military Channel.


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## suasponte2 (Jan 24, 2012)

VoorTrekker said:


> Good plan for the recon operation, but...
> 
> In this scenario, we are not a modern bureaucratic army, the population of the CITY has been greatly reduced and the purpose of COMMUNITY responding is that the hostile elements will arrive eventually and sooner than expected. It is one of those must do situations.
> 
> ...


Good discussion...if this is the case. Then defense in depth. Don't wait until they come to you. Reverse the situation and engage they as far away as possible. Fall back, engage again, and repeat...that will kill them off as well add their motivation.

But even unorganized, hostile amongst themselves bad guys WILL align towards a final goal and then turn on themselves.

Earthly days of Iraq II, it was the disorganized bands wreaking havoc on our guys...they aligned once they had a common goal....and then the animals turned on themselves. AQ did not enter the picture until a few years into Iraq.

The reason I keep going back to that scenario is that it is a great example of what happens when a civilized country collapses...yeah I know, most would not call Iraq civilized, but in that area, they were on top.

Anyways, you do have some great ideas...go od snipers can wreak havoc. Harassment ambushes cause massive destruction and greatly reduce morale.

But in my opinion, I would not set up a centraly controlled TOC. It's a sitting target. Take a mobile approach...keeping it moved around, makes it a hard target as well as DF(direction finding). Since you need three lobs to get a good fix (location) For those that don't understand, a lob is one DFer getting a fix, a cut is two DFers getting a lob each, three DFers will give you a fix.)

AQ is great at this and the reason its is still hard getting the higher echelon guys.

But the endstste is still why are you willing to risk lives for a city? I don't want to sound cold, but, if the situation is this bad , your resources would be better suited to growing your societies infrastructure and resources. UNLESS, that city actually holds any true value, why? No matter what you to in preventive measures, you're going to lose guys...you can't put a value on them. Are they worth losing? Are you medically prepared to assist wounded folks? In this situation , infection its gong to be your major medical concern. Sanitation is critical.

I'm gong off track. Please continue on...this is enjoyable and good for mental practice!


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## suasponte2 (Jan 24, 2012)

Voor Trekker...if you want to discuss this offline, pm me....I find this interesting and would gladly enjoy refning this.

RLTW!


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## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

The mobile TOC is a good idea, tedious, but feasible. The reason COMMUNITY is taking back the CITY is because more refugees will arrive, word gets out and then the situation becomes untenable. Once the unchecked threat of hostiles has been eliminated, the Inhabitants can return to the CITY and resume recovery of their civil administrations. The COMMUNITY doesn't want to increase their numbers of refugees by adding them to the County rolls. They want the CITY Inhabitants and Refugees to go home!

The personnel of COMMUNITY are both combat veterans, some M-Day national guard and small town peace officers. With that, the tactics are not the same as a major army of a high population nation. Think Australian Army tactics. All NCO and supervisory positions are qualified only and no PC or politics. So ambushes, raids and engaging by sudden instantaneous and un-sustained contact is the tactic for direct engagement. Since COMMUNITY and the Hostiles do not have RF detectors or indirect support, the Middle East quotients are non applicable. 

There is the possibility of the Hostiles using the radios of public safety vehicles and taxi-cabs, utility vehicles. I don't think they will be using HAM radios. So COMMUNITY can use unsecure civilian radios on set channels and using COMSEC procedures and code talk, comms should be somewhat secure from hostiles using counter measures. 

Think more like families of professional thieves, gang bangers, knock out games, etc. as the qualifying aspects of the hostile forces. COMMUNITY SOP forgoes hoo'ah! and 'oorah! grandstanding. No glory hounds and whipper snappers and no unnecessary overburdened TOE. Consider the (Taliban)--riflemen, ammo and water bearers, mobile cache sites and daily changing the ORP just like the password number combo changes daily. What if cell phone towers are still functioning? Satellite telephones should still be working, that's secure comms.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

Its still absurd to suggest that a large city cam be made sustainable without a great deal of infrastucture. Im sure you are a fine soldier, but without a lot of people who have a lot of skills, your retake the city plan is a lot of very wasted effort.

now if you just want to eliminate a threat, I get that, ill fight with you for that. But you dont need to take and hold the city to eliminate the threat. The sandbox should have tought you that.


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## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

After the threat to the city has been eliminated, the people of COMMUNITY go home, they aren't holding anything. It is now in the hands of the CITY to keep it running. They don't have to supply the entire city, Inhabitants can consolidate as they need to, or spread out. We don't care, as long as they stay in the CITY.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

Ok.. so then isnt your mission better described THREAT ELIMINATION rather than 'capture the city'? It seems you mis represented the original goal. Not trying to bust your balls, just saying that eliminating the threat of criminals and thugs in a city, is a vastly different, and far more worthy, goal than captiring and securing a city


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## millertimedoneright (May 13, 2013)

The only way I could see taking over a city worth the hassle would be to open up a major trade line(if it was a city high in water navigation and trade)...when I think of a city after a shtf event I think disease, hungry people, thugs, thieves, etc...however if one was to have full control over a major city and trade route(think Houston or a city along the Mississippi River) you would not only have great power and influence but you would prolly be a very wealthy person in terms of security, security forces, workers, food, gold, silver, etc...opening a huge network of trade routes and securing the local utilities would be a necessity as would acquiring a large amount of personal and enough food to feed them...provide protection and food and you will have workers for security, farms, local utilities, etc...in order to rid any undesirables one would need the regular citizens on their side along with a decent sized and well organized army...10-15 towns folk will not walk in and resecure Houston or any other decent sized city...it would take several hundred to several thousand depending on the level of experience and the equipment your army has...their will be tens of thousands of armed hungry and desperate people(if not more) that you will either have to feed or shoot...and thousands will be thugs and gangbangers killing anyone and everyone for what food they can find...


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## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

millertimedoneright said:


> ...The only way I could see taking over a city worth the hassle would be *to open up a major trade line*...however if one was to have full control over a major city and trade route(think Houston or a city along the Mississippi River) you would not only have great power and influence but you would prolly be a very wealthy person ...opening a huge network of trade routes and securing the local utilities would be a necessity ...provide protection and food and you will have workers for security, farms, local utilities, etcy...10-15 towns folk will not walk in and resecure Houston or any other decent sized city......their will be tens of thousands of armed hungry and desperate people(if not more) that you will either have to feed or shoot...and thousands will be thugs and gangbangers killing anyone and everyone for what food they can find...


In post #1 the population has been greatly reduced, watch "After Armageddon" to get a grasp of this. There wouldn't be tens of thousands, or even thousands of hostiles. As for 10-15 towns folks, depends on who they are, but the OP has more than 15.

The first part of your post is why COMMUNITY would recapture CITY and leave YOU in charge. You know what you are doing and have a tentative and viable plan, with a strong sense of posterity.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

Geeze n she thought I was a dreamer... well good luck


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## Gians (Nov 8, 2012)

VoorTrekker said:


> Find the television special "After Armageddon" and view it to get a grasp for this exercise. It was a well researched and detailed presentation. I saw it on satellite so I don't remember if it was NatGeo, NGC, or NGW, or Discovery, or Science, or History or H2, or Military Channel.


Thanks, I found it on YouTube and realized I'd caught a little of it on TV before, watched the whole movie today. Learned some new stuff and got refreshed on some other things. The only law enforcement it shows surviving is a local sheriff :scratch it may take a while but it's hard to imagine the Fed/State/County/City just up and throwing in the towel...too much power and money involved. Near the end, the movie states that the big cities probably won't ever return, if something this large were to happen, I'd have to agree.


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## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

Gians, me too. I really liked the format and execution of that production. I don't agree with some of the suggested survival tactics, but is was well researched and presented. It was a TEOWAKI type of scenario.


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