# Small Diary cows



## Bobbb

We're currently buying about 3 gallons of milk per week.

I'm guessing that trading for that milk rather than having a dairy cow is probably the smartest route to take, but if that route isn't available what would you suggest as a path to getting that amount of milk? Extra milk could be used for cheese making I suppose, and for some butter and ice-cream and more is probably needed if we have to bake goods instead of buying in the store, but still there should be lots of milk left over, am I right?

What do farmers do with surplus milk that they can't sell? Feed it to the hogs and chickens? 
How much milk can a small breed like a Dexter produce?

If I can't trade for it, my ideal solution would be to find a human use for the milk and find a breed that doesn't produce a lot (thereby also not eating a lot) - it seems wasteful to send surplus milks to the livestock feed process.

Any words of wisdom for me?


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## catsraven

From what I understand Dexters only produce for a short time. I would get a small Jersey cow. In fact I really want one. The average milk produced is 1 to 4 gallons a day for a small Jersey. What I mean by small is 46 inch to 48 inch in height.


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## The_Blob

I know many are averse to it, but have you considered goats?


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## Bobbb

The_Blob said:


> I know many are averse to it, but have you considered goats?


As I grappled with the fact that a cow will likely produce too much milk for my family I did think about goat and sheep milk. I bought some goat milk from a local goat diary and it didn't go over too well with the family.

This brought me back full circle - no cow+trade for milk or small cow and find some uses for the milk we can't drink ourselves. What do people do with surplus milk?

I still have to track down sheep milk and give that a try. Maybe that is the solution.


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## *Andi

Remember a homestead cow will be different than a "dairy cow". A dairy cow is pushed to the limit where a homestead cow is not.

We would get 3 or 4 gallons per day from two Jersey cows ... With that we made butter, cheese and ice cream ... just for starters.  So thinking about it, we never had a surplus of milk. (always something to make. ) Then we had 4 kids, that loved milk.

As for the goats milk ... try before you buy.  (Then again the same thing goes for a cow.) A lot goes into the taste of the milk ... feed, weeds and the way it was handled.

Just a few things to think about.


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## hiwall

We used to have some Jersey's on our farm. I think they would be a good choice. Have you ever had raw milk? Milk from a Jersey is very rich. It's a little scary for some people when they pour some milk and get a big lump of cream! Would be easy for you to make your own butter.


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## Bobbb

*Andi said:


> Remember a homestead cow will be different than a "dairy cow". A dairy cow is pushed to the limit where a homestead cow is not.


Good point.



> We would get 3 or 4 gallons per day from two Jersey cows ... With that we made butter, cheese and ice cream ... just for starters.  So thinking about it, we never had a surplus of milk. (always something to make. ) Then we had 4 kids, that loved milk.


So about 25 gallons per week for 2 cows, 12.5 gallons per cow. Our current consumption of milk for drinking is 3 gallons per week. I guess I can make a lot of different types of cheese with a surplus of 9 gallons per week.

What's the beef from a Jersey taste like? Tougher, fatter, ????

If I go with one cow though I'll have to contend with a period of no lactation every year, right? How short can I make that period?


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## Bobbb

hiwall said:


> We used to have some Jersey's on our farm. I think they would be a good choice. Have you ever had raw milk? Milk from a Jersey is very rich. It's a little scary for some people when they pour some milk and get a big lump of cream! Would be easy for you to make your own butter.


I had raw milk when I was a lad, which might as well count as a no in that I haven't had it recently as an adult. The cream can be separated for other uses, right? I haven't really sat down and figured out our consumption of butter, ice cream, sour cream, cottage cheese, various cheeses, yogurt, etc but I seriously doubt that it amounts to 3x-4x our present milk consumption. Or are they so volume intensive in terms of milk input versus cheese weight output that it would surprise me?


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## *Andi

Bobbb said:


> Good point.
> So about 25 gallons per week for 2 cows, 12.5 gallons per cow. Our current consumption of milk for drinking is 3 gallons per week. I guess I can make a lot of different types of cheese with a surplus of 9 gallons per week.
> 
> What's the beef from a Jersey taste like? Tougher, fatter, ????
> 
> If I go with one cow though I'll have to contend with a period of no lactation every year, right? How short can I make that period?


You could breed one for fall freshing and one for spring, which is what we did with our goats. You always have milk ...

Jersey beef is grand ... (my husband said, longhorn was better lol)

lactation ~ is up to you ... I always gave my girls a break, some folks do not.

Now a few questions for you ...

1) Have you ever milked a cow or a goat?

2) Have you ever had to handle either?

3) Do you know how to make butter, cheese or even how to handle the milk?

Not asking to be rude ... just better how to answer you post.


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## Tank_Girl

I had dexters and I like the fact they were very small, dual purpose - beef and dairy and were very placid. We were able to milk out in the paddock with just a few handfuls of grain in the bottom of a bucket to keep them still. No head bail was required.
We got enough milk to meet our needs and any surplus was fed to pigs who drank up any milk we gave them.
The dexter steers gave a carcass that was small enough to fit into a chest sized freezer once it was broken down and the beef was very tasty and tender.
The added bonus was that the Dexter bulls had nice temperaments.


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## Bobbb

*Andi said:


> Now a few questions for you ...
> 
> 1) Have you ever milked a cow or a goat?
> 
> 2) Have you ever had to handle either?
> 
> 3) Do you know how to make butter, cheese or even how to handle the milk?
> 
> Not asking to be rude ... just better how to answer you post.


1.) For about a week when I was 10 and under adult supervision. Treat that as a no.
2.) See above.
3.) Helped a friend make some gouda cheese and saw him place it in his small home-built cheese cave (hobbyist) but no, it's not something that I've done regularly. Never made butter or sour cream, but have made ice-cream.

Here's where I'm coming from - I'm aiming to design a homestead system which can provide for a small family but, at times, would only be manned by one person (a retired parent living permanently in the home that is designed to accommodate my family) so I'm looking for rapid scalability if the need suddenly arises. I don't want to be hunting around for livestock as the world is in flames, I want to have everything in place or know where to get it in short order. The stored food on site will carry us for a year and then the land has to provide. What I garner from hunting and fishing will be nothing more than a bonus. My second goal is to decrease required inputs as much as I can, meaning I don't want to rely on commercial feed and such, so I want the land to support the cow(s), calf, a pig or two (enough to feed us), the chickens, a few turkeys, maybe some sheep and goats and rabbits, so I don't want to overtax the carrying capacity of the land, I want to have excess carrying capacity as a buffer.


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## *Andi

First ...thanks for being honest as where you are and where you want to go...

Second pick up a copy of Carla Emery's book ... The Encyclopedia of Country Living ... http://www.carlaemery.com/ (it is the best... imo)

It is easy to say you want to homestead and a lot different to do it ...

First ~ you need a second person (or a backup person) for the homestead chores ...It is no fun to have to milk if you have the flu, bad cold or what ever)... I telling you ... lol (I'm lucky to have my hubby or son as a backup person) ~

Second ~ If you are looking to start milking ... buy a tennis ball now, to get your hands ready. With that tennis ball you will "milk" for 30 minutes twice a day, get your hands ready now. (this is not a joke)

Third ~ research ... research and more research.... (no joke)


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## Bobbb

*Andi said:


> First ...thanks for being honest as where you are and where you want to go...
> 
> Second pick up a copy of Carla Emery's book ... The Encyclopedia of Country Living ... http://www.carlaemery.com/ (it is the best... imo)
> 
> It is easy to say you want to homestead and a lot different to do it ...


Thanks for the book recommendation. I'll be getting it, or one like it, to add to my library.

Saying and doing, yeah, I get it. Raising livestock is my weak link, gardening is not, engineering is not, construction is not, etc. so I'm not a complete city slicker - I've been gardening and pressure canning for years. Added greenhouse gardening to the repertoire a while back and will be seriously expanding that capacity on the homestead site. While I realize that there is a learning curve involved, I hope that it won't be a huge one because I'm not intending to do this to earn a living, so the amount of livestock and the time I have to devote to their care shouldn't (I hope) be taking up all of my time.



> First ~ you need a second person (or a backup person) for the homestead chores ...It is no fun to have to milk if you have the flu, bad cold or what ever)... I telling you ... lol (I'm lucky to have my hubby or son as a backup person) ~


I'm transitioning towards a telecommuting status for my work but that's not happening immediately. The situation is as it is - one person permanently living on site and he'll have to work things out with the neighbors in order to develop a local support system when I and my family are not there.



> Second ~ If you are looking to start milking ... buy a tennis ball now, to get your hands ready. With that tennis ball you will "milk" for 30 minutes twice a day, get your hands ready now. (this is not a joke)


So your opinion on portable milking machines is, what? Not worth the bother for so little milk?



> Third ~ research ... research and more research.... (no joke)


That's why I'm here, pick the brains of people who know more than me.


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## JayJay

hiwall said:


> We used to have some Jersey's on our farm. I think they would be a good choice. Have you ever had raw milk? Milk from a Jersey is very rich. It's a little scary for some people when they pour some milk and get a big lump of cream! Would be easy for you to make your own butter.


Yes, we skim off the top of our Amish milk.


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## The_Blob

Bobbb said:


> I haven't really sat down and figured out our consumption of butter, ice cream, sour cream, cottage cheese, various cheeses, yogurt, etc but I seriously doubt that it amounts to 3x-4x our present milk consumption. Or are they so volume intensive in terms of milk input versus cheese weight output that it would surprise me?


In my *humble* experience, it takes 2-3 *gallons* of milk to yield the cream to make only 1 pound of butter. It takes 1.5 gallons of milk to make cheese

FYI - 1 pound of butter is only 2 cups

I saw you mention sheep's milk earlier, so... consider another difference among the three milk types: you'll only see that rich, thick layer of fat-filled cream rise to the top of *cow* milk. This signifies that the milk is unhomogenized. Goat and sheep milk, on the other hand, is naturally homogenized, meaning that the fat globules in these milks are smaller and don't separate from the less-dense, water-based components in the milk. Most cow milk goes through a process of homogenization before it's sold, which fuses the cream with the milk for a totally emulsified liquid. The fact that cow milk is naturally unhomogenized explains why you can find cheeses made with part-skim cow milk. It's not so easy to skim the fat from goat or sheep milk.

FYI (part deux) - average fat content of whole milks per (8oz)cup

goat: 7g
cow: 8g
sheep: 10g
human: 10g (cuz it was there... and I found that FUNNY)
water buffalo: 15g :dunno: 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Milkproducts.svg


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## ovosapian

I would recommend sheep, i was milking a dorper ewe, and she gave me 3/4 of a quart daily, I made yogurt, drank milk and froze some for future soap making projects. It is thick and creamy, contains more vitamins and minerals, and freezes well. 

Sheep's milk is naturally "homogenized" so it isn't good for making butter, I did notice a little separation, but not enough to functionally separate it. 

Some wool breeds will carry the taste of lanolin through their milk and it won't have a very clear taste. 

A cow was gifted with larger teats for easier hand milking, but it's not difficult to find an equally gifted ewe. A cows teats are much harder then sheep tears and leave a persons hands sore at times. With experience milking 180 Holsteins (that are milked 3xdaily) a cow that's extremely used to milking can still be kicky and dangerous...a sheep can also be, but a sheep can easily be manipulated whereas a cow might not be. 

Sheep are much cheaper to keep, we keep 50 sheep and use 1/4-1/3 of the amount of feed our 15 cows take. Lambs are ready to slaughter between 2 and 6 months, calves take a year. Sheep will happily browse on weeds cattle wouldn't consider including young burdock and thistles.


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## The_Blob

ovosapian said:


> Sheep will happily browse on weeds cattle wouldn't consider including young burdock and thistles.


:scratch I must've had mutant cows... :lolsmash:

... they had NO problems eating thistles, not young thistles, mind you, FIVE FOOT TALL purple bloomers, with what I swear were hypodermic needles growing out of them!  :gaah:


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## mosquitomountainman

Have you considered partnering up with a neighbor? Our biggest obstacle is finding someone who is knowledgeable and dependable. You can share the cost of the cow, milking duties, feed and the milk produced. A dairy cow should keep three families supplied with milk. Get a breed that gives lots of cream. Remember, you'll be married to whichever animal type you choose. We milked twice daily, every day. No vacations or days off.

As has already been said, be sure to try goat and sheep milk before you commit yourself. They do taste different. I like goat milk if I mix some Nestle Quick with it.


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## *Andi

Bobbb said:


> So your opinion on portable milking machines is, what? Not worth the bother for so little milk?


I never have used a portable milking machine, so I'm no help there.


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## hiwall

A couple of things for new farmers- cows break stuff. They seem to go out of their way to break stuff to make your life harder. Cows will try different things to eat. They are not very picky eaters. Down here (beef)cows eat prickly pear cactus all the time. I was a happy camper when we decided to stop having cows on our farm. Bobbb, I don't know where you live but you might want to investigate the prices for hay and feed in your area. Down here hay is $15 to $25 per regular square bale.


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## ladyhk13

You may want to check out Minature Dexture Cows. Here is a link that gives you info on them, farms all over the country that you can contact and ask questions - the ones that I have emailed were more than willing to share and even offered to have me come out and see their operation. 
While some won't post their prices you can look on craigslist and find them for sale to get a better idea of cost. I think for a family that is going to use the milk for their own consumption it is a great option and one we are planning on doing once we get our new property up and running. good luck.
http://www.dextercattle.org/


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## ovosapian

The_Blob said:


> :scratch I must've had mutant cows... :lolsmash:
> 
> ... they had NO problems eating thistles, not young thistles, mind you, FIVE FOOT TALL purple bloomers, with what I swear were hypodermic needles growing out of them!  :gaah:


I need to borrow your mutant cattle, ours are much more selective with their dietary choices


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## kejmack

Bobbb, if you are only drinking 3 gallons per week you do not need a cow. Cows eat a lot and need a lot of acreage, plus supplemental feed to produce milk. In your situation, you would be better served by getting a goat or a ewe to milk. Goats and sheep thrive on forage that is not fit for cows. Goats and sheep are a lot more efficient and a lot cheaper to maintain.


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## Bobbb

kejmack said:


> Bobbb, if you are only drinking 3 gallons per week you do not need a cow. Cows eat a lot and need a lot of acreage, plus supplemental feed to produce milk. In your situation, you would be better served by getting a goat or a ewe to milk. Goats and sheep thrive on forage that is not fit for cows. Goats and sheep are a lot more efficient and a lot cheaper to maintain.


I'm hearing what you're saying and it makes sense, yet . . . the appeal of cow milk, for me and mine, is stronger than the appeal of goat milk (haven't yet found any sheep milk to try) so the decision is coming down to taste preference versus cost and efficiency, in other words, willingness to pay more for a "luxury" good.

I have about 5 acres of wet, year round, pasture available and there are far more acres that are treed and waiting to be cleared. The cost of feeding a cow is something that I'm wondering about - how much cost comes over and above the implied cost of feed that a cow grazes on in the field. I'm treating the cost of grazing as free - I have the land and it's not being used right now, so if a cow can be entirely supported by eating grass on my own land, then that reduces out of pocket costs. Doesn't it?

When you write that a sheep and goats are cheaper to maintain are you referring to other costs besides feed? Are these costs one-time costs or are they recurring or annual costs or costs linked to each new cow that is bought/born? Is it a matter of having to devote more land to each cow than you would to a goat or is it that with a cow that is ill you have to get a vet because you have so much money invested in the cow whereas if the goat is ill you simply put it down, butcher it, and move on with your next goat?

I really would like to try my hand as cheese making - at this stage this is of interest to me but I have virtually no experience in the process. If that does develop, then that should consume a number of gallons of milk per week, same with yogurt, ice cream, butter. What's keeping me in the indecision zone is my lack of knowledge about yields and production processes. Take a "typical" milking day - how much yogurt, hard cheese, cottage cheese, ice cream, and milk can I produce?

Another aspect in play is that we like beef as a table meat more than we like goat or sheep, so when cow/calf goes to be butchered, the cost of raising that animal for milk is offset by meat. If we don't raise a dairy cow and her calf, then that means we will very likely be buying beef and one of my goals is to create a homestead which has to rely as little as possible on outside commerce.

I appreciate all the feedback everyone is giving. There are many moving parts in this decision and I'm still in the dark about a number of aspects that I want to implement, so I'm still researching and learning as I stumble forward.


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## *Andi

As we move into late summer and early fall, the local & state fairs will be everywhere. (Or they will be around here )

May I suggest, you check them out. (go to as many as you can) You will be able to talk to people about their cows, goats or sheep. You can see how they handle them and get a feel for it.

As for the taste ... it is what it is. ~ A game in your mind, for the most part. Best of luck.


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## Wellrounded

I've milked both cows and goats through most of my life. At times I've milked as many as 3 cows to keep up with the milk etc we needed on the farm. 
I now have 2 Dexter x Jersey Heifers and a pure Dexter bull. Hopefully our young bull has done his job and we should be milking again in 8 or 9 months.

The cows I've had in the past were Jerseys and giving up to 5 gallons per day each, dropping back to 3 gallons or so by the end of the lactation. Feed is pasture when available, good quality hay (when pasture is lacking) and organic grain (only a pound or two a day).
We dry them up (stop milking) 8 weeks before calving to let them build some reserves for the next lactation. Their weight at calving has a huge influence on the milk production over that lactation. We stagger calving so we always have at least one cow milking. 
Not sure how the Dexter Jersey crosses are going to perform (down here in Australia the Dexter is used almost entirely as a beef breed and there are no milking records available) I hope we get 3 gallons or more per day from them, if not I'll also invest in a full Jersey. 

So what am I going to do with 6 gallons of milk a day? (Going to convert all this from metric so maybe a little off, lol)

For 4 adults, over a week. (At the moment we have 4 adults living here permanently but have up to 10 or so for a month or two at a time. when we have the extra people all the figures below change of course) 

4 gallons as house milk. 
5 gallons for hard cheese (this will make about 4 pounds, more than we will use but allows for failures and a bit in reserve for the times when we are only milking one cow)
2 1/2 gallons for other cheeses (mozzarella, camembert, cottage, basic acid cheese)
2 1/2 gallons for yoghurt (I make half of this into yoghurt cheese, it can be used anywhere you use sour cream or cream cheese)
8 gallons is put through a milk separator to produce enough cream to make 2 pounds of butter and a weeks worth of pouring cream (if you're just removing cream by skimming you'll need to set more milk than this to get enough for butter making)
The 'waste' products from these processes, like buttermilk, skim milk and whey are available if needed.

That's the basics for the house, waste like whey from cheese making, the separated milk and any waste or leftovers becomes stock/pet food. 

This is a lot of dairy produce but with everything on the farm made from scratch it's amazing how much you can use and we give quite a bit to family and friends. 

The rest of the milk........

15 gallons is made into stock yoghurt and fed to chickens, pigs, farm cats and anything else that likes it. Making this is simple, we have a small barrel seeded with a small amount of kitchen yoghurt and we simply add warm milk straight from the cow, needs to be somewhere warmish and cleaned once or twice a week. We could use much more of this if we had it. 
5 gallons to feed calves (the volume is an average and will change a lot as the calf grows, then stop altogether at weaning).

I've never used a milking machine at home, always hand milked (and the first few weeks of milking is hard but your hands get used to it), but I've spent years working on commercial dairy farms and have a thorough understanding of how they work etc. We are thinking of using a small machine set up in the future if we end up milking more than 2 cows. The upside is I will be able to continue milking as I get older and less able, the down side is the cleaning time. It must be perfectly cleaned twice per day.

On the farm milking and dealing with the milk is by far the most time consuming chore I have, probably 4 hours a day or more (not really sure as you combine tasks like cheese making with other jobs). I would love to have a dedicated area for dairy production (we are in the process of building a large second kitchen for this and a few other things like butchering and canning as well as a cold room and a cheese cave) I think I could save a bit of time that way. Do I think it's worth all the work? Without a doubt, fresh farm produced dairy is amazing and really rewarding and I love my cows! We are on grid at the moment and I use every shortcut I can but have spent 7 years doing all this without any electricity at all. Heat came from a wood stove, cooling from a kerosene fridge and then the cellar when it was finished. The big changes are churning butter (so easy with a mixer) and using thermostatically controlled vats for cheese and yoghurt making, not essential at all but easier and less time consuming.


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## Bobbb

Wellrounded said:


> So what am I going to do with 6 gallons of milk a day? (Going to convert all this from metric so maybe a little off, lol). . .


Hot damn! Every paragraph you wrote was so information rich that I had to read your post a couple of times to slowly digest the wealth of information that you imparted. Thank you so much. These real life numbers and how you use the milk helped me immeasurably.

The stock yoghurt for the animals was a new one for me - why yoghurt and not straight milk?

What I found surprising was your claim of how time intensive dealing with the milking process was. However, you did note that this also involved the food production that results from the milk. Could you break it down, even if roughly, between the time needed for animal care versus the time required for dealing with the milk processing.

You mentioned that if your Dexter-Jersey cross doesn't produce enough milk that you'll get a full Jersey, which I take to imply that you can always find a use for excess milk on your farm. Am I correct in that inference?

If the milk can always be used for feeding other animals, are there benefits to the animals from having milk as a food source compared to other feed types and if the cow(s) can be fed off of your land, is the milk as a feed supplement cost effective?

You also mentioned that Dexters are usually raised for their beef. At what age do you send them to slaughter and what is their hanging weight? Does one Dexter provide enough beef for a year for a family of four?


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## ONEOLDCHIEF

Run Bobbb, run...


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## ONEOLDCHIEF

Bobbb, you still there? Hope so... Cows need 1 1/2 acres per cow to graze and in the winter you have to feed them period. No matter if it is hay or grain. You can plant rye grass or oats, but you still need hay (dry matter) or they will get the runs on straight green rye grass or oats and that aint fun... I remember my Grandma milking a black angus cow, she gave a good amount of milk.

You can eat dairy cattle, they just do not grow as fast as beef cattle.

more to come... Contact your local county extension agent, he/she is full of information specific to your area...


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## mojo4

Wow tons of good info in this thread. I kept passing it up because it said diary cows and not DAIRY cows. I figured someone just had a cow that was moody and liked to write about life in the pasture and barn. I had no idea it took so much work and effort for milk and cheese.


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## Wellrounded

Oneoldchief is right, cows need a lot of pasture. I can only indicate what I've done over the years where I've lived. In Australia we use a feed indicator called DSE, this stands for DRY SHEEP EQUIVALENT and means how many dry (not feeding lambs) sheep each acre can support on a yearly basis. No idea what other countries use as an indicator. The area I live in is 2 DSE arid country (2 dry sheep per acre). A general rule here is 1 dairy cow = 18 DSE minimum. So each lactating cow needs 9 acres. This is in a perfect world, lol. Our winters are not really cold, we have frosts and it only snows every 20 years or so, but pasture growth is very slow for about 3 months over the coldest weather. Our summers are hot and dry, little rain for up to 5 months sometimes more and temperatures around 100 for weeks is not unusual. So we need to be very careful with pasture management and put up some quality hay when possible (or buy it in). We buy some grain from local farmers straight off the crop. Speak to your local extension agent (we have no equivalent here, our local agriculture department sees small farmers/homesteaders as a plague upon the planet, lol) find out all you can about the stock carrying ability of your country and allow a huge error margin. Be prepared to buy in feed while you get the hang of pasture management. 

I've milked 5 animals (3 cows and 2 goats) on a property that had no pasture at all, we bought in quality hay and organic grain. Did this for 7 years while establishing pasture on virgin country. It was costly but had many benefits, the land had never been farmed and was just poor rubbish native soil with no grass cover at all, just short native bushes, over the years we built fertility and organic matter capable of supporting good pasture. We also really needed the muck from the milking shed for garden and orchards, without it we wouldn't have grown much at all. 
We do the same kind of thing here even with pasture available (different farm in a different state, same kind of climate), lock up the stock at night with supplementary feed and a straw floor, this is mucked out twice a week and composted. We are always in need of quality compost and the cows and sheep provide a large part of what we need for garden and orchards. We do this more in the leaner times to take pressure off the pastures and when we need the muck.

We make the milk into yoghurt as it keeps better and the animals can digest it easier. We have to be very careful when offering dairy to animals as too much too fast can cause all sorts of problems. We feed a lot to pigs (never have enough), the lactating sows love it and it helps hold off draw down (draw down is the massive weigh loss sows will go through when feeding big litters) for an extra week or two and we get bigger better piglets at weaning. They help themselves to mum's feed and start eating the yoghurt pretty early on. The pigs are fat at slaughter but that's what we want, old fashioned fatty pork and we use a lot of lard in the kitchen and still room. We feed it to poultry of all kinds, cats, dogs and who ever turns up at the feed troughs. Like any feed it has to be fed in proportion and not in excess. 
Our farm is a pretty complicated semi closed system (we buy in some hay, straw, grain, mineral supplements, a cooked meat product to supplement protein levels for the pigs and some natural fertilisers) and we harvest from one animal or plant and feed to others taking what we need along the way. We are slowly adding to this cycle to limit the amount we need to buy. As far as the economics involved, we don't look at any one cost but look at the farm as a whole. Yes milk production is an expensive part of the system but we get grass turned into a nutrient rich feed that benefits a lot of the animals on the farm. The manure we get is another important product. For us it's about creating a complex interwoven system, some things are easy and cheap some harder and costly, it all balances in the end.

Time spent with cows and milk is a complicated thing, I'll do my best to break it down. 

Walking to the cow shed and preparing feed etc 10 minutes twice a day.
Actual milking takes 10 - 15 minutes per cow twice a day. (You won't believe that when you first start milking but as your hands strengthen it will get easier and faster.) 
Clean up in the cow shed after milking, 10 minutes twice a day.
Putting milk into small vat/storage containers 5 minutes twice a day.
Bucket clean up 10 minutes twice per day. (We use stainless steel seamless buckets and they must be sterilised after milking.)
Other small jobs are associated with milking, cleaning the cheese cloth I use to filter milk, cleaning storage containers, refilling milk jugs in the house, but all these are usually done while leaning/doing other things so don't add a lot to time spent.
So harvesting the milk from 2 cows takes about 1 hour 50 minutes per day. 

The rest of the time......

We process our own feed so that takes an hour or so a week. 
Hard cheese takes about 3 hours of actual hands on time spread over two days. Once per week.
Separating the cream from the milk is done twice per week and involves a lot of cleaning of equipment. We do this straight after milking with the milk from the night before added in (the previous nights milk needs to be at body temperature so requires heating, we put it on the stove as we are filtering the morning milk and cleaning buckets). About 1 hour twice a week.
We make 2 different butters sweet and cultured, sweet is made straight after separating the cream, cultured is made the following day. About 1 hour per batch, churning is quite fast if the cream is warm but washing the buttermilk out is time consuming.
Yoghurt one hour twice per week.
Other cheeses take between 1 (mozzarella) and 3 (blue) hours spread over one or two days.
Looking after the cheese once set to mature, I probably spend 3 hours a week doing this, turning the cheeses, monitoring humidity, salting, buttering or checking the wax coatings, as well as keeping everything around them clean and as sterile as possible.

Feeding calves takes about half an hour on average per day once they will drink from a bucket. There's pen cleaning every couple of days as well. With a few cows and staggered calving we feed calves through the year. At times we buy extra calves to raise for veal and beef or to sell as a weaner to other small holders.
Animal yoghurt about 2 hours per week, mostly cleaning the yoghurt barrel.
If you just want milk, cream and butter you can keep the time spend down a bit. Cheese making and aging is time consuming. When we have the new kitchen finished we'll have a more efficient system and it'll cut down a few hours of work. We will be processing bigger batches less often. We don't do everything every week, sometimes we are just too busy with other stuff. Not everything is done by one person, we have 4 adults on the farm, and no one does everything, chores are shared. Sometimes we have 5 or so extra adults as well and they all help. A lot of time is spent cleaning; we want the cleanest milk we can get from the healthiest cows. 

We slaughter our own stock on farm, beef, pigs, sheep, poultry and whatever else we raise for meat from year to year. Our system at the moment is a bit crude and working with big pigs or cattle is hard work. The last beef we killed (about 3 weeks ago) was an Angus steer; we put 671 pounds of boned meat and fat into the freezer. It was far too heavy for us to handle and we had to divide the carcase into manageable pieces to put into the cool room. This will be ample beef for us for 12 months but we do feed a lot of extra people through the year. With just the four of us and with all the other livestock we keep it would last 24 months easily. 

One of the reasons we have moved to Dexters is that we want a smaller animal at slaughter age. Australia Dexter lines generally produce a 350kg animal at 14 months or a little older with a dressed weight of 180kg. They have lower feed requirements than larger breeds and will suit what we are doing much better than the Angus we have been raising. Also the slower growth rates suit our pasture maintenance methods and our rainfall pattern. We can keep them through two springs and grow a better animal with minimal supplement feeding. Our calves will be 3/4 Dexter, the Dexter line the bull comes from produces champion carcases so it will be an interesting experiment. 

I will add here that our requirements for meat are a little different to most; we eat a lot of slow cooked dishes and very few grilled as we aim at alternative storage methods to freezing if possible. Being Aussies we do like a good BBQ but will use fresh killed pork, lamb or poultry more often than beef. We kill older animals quite often as we prefer the stronger flavours, the angus we just slaughtered was 8 years old, we prefer mutton to lamb when roasting or stewing and pork is good at any age (if you have a taint free line).

I hope some of this helps. I know how much there is to learn, not just about the livestock but your land, climate and particular situation. Every farm and family is different. I've been doing this for 25 years and I still learn something new every day, everyone you meet will have something they can teach you. When I first started out I found it so frustrating that I couldn't find information that would answer the questions I had. How much food to grow, how much hay to make, how much time would this all take, the internet has made it easier to research but harder to decide what is pertinent to your situation. I grew up on a small holding, my parents milked a few cows but didn't make butter or cheese and rarely even skimmed cream so had a lot to learn when I ventured out on my own. 

I personally know a few people who would much rather milk goats or sheep than cows and in their situation it suits much better. You'll have to make up your own mind about what is right for you. I love goats, they have the most amazing personalities and we have a few on the farm, last year we were milking two. Half the household quite likes goats milk the other two (me included) won't drink it. After a lot of research I found an article (wish I could remember where) on milk and meat taint that explained that some people are much more sensitive to taint in both and it was genetic and more common in women. I don't mind cowy milk but don't like goaty milk and having a bull doesn’t seem to change the flavour of cows milk but keeping a buck certainly seems to change the flavour of goats milk (maybe nannies are more hormonal, lol). Everyone on the farm likes cows milk so to keep things simple we will only be milking cows in the future.


----------



## Crrrock

WOW.!!!!
excellent response.


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## Wellrounded

I should have stated that 18 DSE per dairy cow is the average for commercial dairies in Australia and is really only a guide. Dexters have a smaller feed requirement and at a guess I'd say about 10 or 11 DSE. In my area that is 5 acres per lactating cow. 
My other half has just asked me what a still room is. So for those that don't know it's an old term used to describe where you make all the non food items like soap, medicines, cosmetics, alcohol etc .


----------



## Bobbb

Wellrounded said:


> I hope some of this helps. I know how much there is to learn, not just about the livestock but your land, climate and particular situation.


It helps more than I can say. You gave me, and others, a graduate level seminar, and I want to thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge.



> We also really needed the muck from the milking shed for garden and orchards, without it we wouldn't have grown much at all.


If you had to do this again, build up your soil, would you follow the same strategy? Here's why I'm asking - from where I'm standing, on the outside looking in, I see your process of buying feed for your animals and then using the waste to build up your soil results in you getting the milk and slaughtered animal as a bonus but it also involves many years of time and a lot of effort to nurture the soil. The alternative which jumps out at me is to buy truckloads of soil , forgo the milk and meat, and get to a more fertile farm operation that much sooner. Of course, buying soil is an expense and my question is would that be something that you would consider doing if you had to do it again? I suppose the cost differential between buying fertile soil and buying feed is in play, but the benefit is that your gardens and orchids are producing that much sooner, your pasture for your animals is producing that much sooner, thereby reducing your requirement to buy feed, or as much feed, as you would if there was no pasture on your land at all. Any thoughts?



> We feed a lot to pigs (never have enough), the lactating sows love it and it helps hold off draw down (draw down is the massive weigh loss sows will go through when feeding big litters) for an extra week or two and we get bigger better piglets at weaning. They help themselves to mum's feed and start eating the yoghurt pretty early on. The pigs are fat at slaughter but that's what we want, old fashioned fatty pork and we use a lot of lard in the kitchen and still room. We feed it to poultry of all kinds, cats, dogs and who ever turns up at the feed troughs. Like any feed it has to be fed in proportion and not in excess.


This is reassuring to read. It directly addresses one of my concerns about excess milk from a cow versus a more manageable amount of milk for a small family from a goat/sheep.

I'm not looking to run a hugely efficient agri-business, I'm simply looking to run a sustainable homestead, especially in the event of a SHTF event, when it might be very difficult to find livestock to buy, feed to buy, and so on, so the more that I can rely on my own land, the more secure I will feel. I get that raising one cow, 2 pigs, 3 goats, 4 sheep, 5 turkeys, 10 chickens, etc is not going to make me money and will probably end up costing me more money that going to the local supermarket and buying the meat and milks and eggs and vegetables that we eat, but if that supply chain gets disrupted, I'll starve and farmers won't.

So what I'm working towards is to design a small farm that basically produces enough for a small family and can be self-sustaining. The self-sustaining aspect, meaning that I need roosters alongside the hens, I need access to a bull, etc will probably result in producing more animals than one family can eat per year, so I'll have to sell them (which is good in a way because in my jurisdiction, the property tax is reduced for working farms and to qualify as a working farm, the farm has to sell $2,000 or so of product per year) and so my next question is how difficult is it to sell livestock in small quantities? If the cow produces a calf and I've still got beef from last year's slaughter in the freezer, what's the market like for selling one animal, or a few piglets, or some hens/rooster that are hatched?

Or do I have it all wrong here - can a self-sustaining livestock operation be small enough to actually feed only two adults and two children and produce no surplus meat?



> Our farm is a pretty complicated semi closed system (we buy in some hay, straw, grain, mineral supplements, a cooked meat product to supplement protein levels for the pigs and some natural fertilisers) and we harvest from one animal or plant and feed to others taking what we need along the way.


I know that I have a long road ahead of me but this is what I'm shooting for with the goal of reducing the semi-closed system as much as possible.



> (We use stainless steel seamless buckets and they must be sterilised after milking.)


Can the sterilization be done in a home kitchen and what equipment do you need? Or should this equipment be better placed outside of the home? My goal is to make my own cheeses and to make sausage and salami and to set aside some space in my buried root cellar where I can hang the salami and age the cheese. Obviously doing as much work in the kitchen keeps the family together inside the home and can extend the work hours for some family members while still keeping them close to the children. On the other hand, if we're talking about disrupting meal time preparation, needing special equipment for sterilization, for warming the milk into yogurt, then perhaps an expanded outdoor kitchen is a better way to go. Any words of wisdom to share?



> When we have the new kitchen finished we'll have a more efficient system and it'll cut down a few hours of work. We will be processing bigger batches less often. We don't do everything every week, sometimes we are just too busy with other stuff.


Is the new kitchen just to produce food for your own table or are you aiming to sell your cheese and milk products? If for your own table, what are you changing or adding in order to make your work life more efficient?



> One of the reasons we have moved to Dexters is that we want a smaller animal at slaughter age. Australia Dexter lines generally produce a 350kg animal at 14 months or a little older with a dressed weight of 180kg. They have lower feed requirements than larger breeds and will suit what we are doing much better than the Angus we have been raising.


I share the same concern. If the Angus would last you 2 years it would probably last us 4 years. So much for a self-sustaining cycle. A Dexter provides for slaughter more often and makes for easier processing by two adults.



> I will add here that our requirements for meat are a little different to most; we eat a lot of slow cooked dishes and very few grilled as we aim at alternative storage methods to freezing if possible.


A friend of mine's buddy is in the refrigeration trade and comes across a handful of restaurant freezers per year that can be had for cheap before they enter the resale or scrap market. I'm keeping my eye on this right now with the hopes of finding one that I can bury in my underground root cellar. What I need to nail down is how much electricity a freezer will use if it is situated in a thermally beneficial environment - I don't want to be paying $300 per month to keep a walk-in freezer going, but if it's buried with 8 feet of earth cover over it and the residual cold bleed-off works to lower the temperature of the adjacent rooms in the root cellar and the door isn't opened and closed everyday, then I'm thinking that the cost of operation should be drastically reduced because the thermal gradient of the environment isn't as steep as you'd find in a hot restaurant kitchen. Big blank slate on this one right now, but I'm digging for info.

Again I want to thank you for sharing your rich knowledge. You went into a lot of detail, probably mundane boring stuff for you, but for me you opened a window into a whole different topic about which I'm just starting to learn.


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## Wellrounded

I’ll answer as best I can but some of these questions can’t be answered well in a few paragraphs. I’ll also apologise for any incoherent sentences, I have a bad cold (also why I’m sitting so long at the computer today).
This thread was about dairy animals and I concentrated on what they do on and for the farm in my previous replies. The farm as a whole, as previously stated is a complex system and everything that happens here links with something else. We are not running the place for profit, it feeds us and sometimes helps our extended family and very occasionally we can sell excess to help pay for the things will still buy, feed, fertiliser etc. More about the ‘farm economy later’. 

Yes I’d use the same soil building system again. We don’t really have soil in Australia, just dirt, soil is hard to find lol. When I first began vegetable cultivation on this property I bought in 20 ton of the cheapest ‘soil’ I could find (was actually the cow manure scraped off a dairy feed lot mixed with the feed lot base) cost me $1000 delivered. To cover one acre with this to a depth of 2 inches would cost $10,000 per acre and this is about the cheapest I could find. It brought in three species of weed we hadn’t had till then and I have no idea how clean the soil was (free of nasties like antibiotics etc). It was a quick fix but only added fertility for one growing season and a small amount of structure. 

Building soil is a slow process you really can’t speed it up much, it’s a very complex environment that needs to be cultivated in the same way you’d grow any living thing and it takes years to grow. The fertility of the soil is only one aspect, it needs a structure that will allow deep root penetration, ability to hold moisture, needs to drain readily when flooded and so much more. This comes after you have worms and other soil flora and fauna and takes time. I like to think I’m feeding all those little beasties when I’m embarking on a soil improvement programme. I remember being told once that having pasture eating livestock doesn’t make you a sheep, cow or goat farmer it makes you a soil/grass farmer, the livestock are just a part of the system, wise words. If you want to learn more about soil farming Joel Salatin and Polyface Farm would be a good place to start (just google it), he’s dam good at growin’ grass and soil (and everything else!). Using more mainstream methods would give us fields full off pasture in a very short period of time but it’s not sustainable, doesn’t grow nutrient rich grass and doesn’t fit our long term aims. 

We use all sorts of soil improvement methods and spreading compost is just one of them. Purchased fertiliser (natural ones in preference) is one, growing and turning in green manure crops is another and spraying with natural inoculants and liquid manures is yet another. The deciding factors are usually money (we have very little) and time, we always have great plans laid for the year and find we run out of both before the plans are completed, just like everyone else lol. 

We are also aiming at a small sustainable homestead and are still trying to determine just how much we need of everything to reach this goal. At the moment we sell excess piglets, a few plants (strawberries, brambleberries, other perennial food plants and a few ornamentals as well) some poultry (and fertile eggs) and sometimes the occasional vegetable or two. This small farm income pays for most of the purchased feeds and fertiliser we buy through the year. We are both retired and use our very small retirement income for farm improvements like fencing or building projects and to pay all the licences and other Government fees being a landholder in Australia entails. Growing our own food and producing most of what we need is the only way we can keep our standard of living at the level it is. 

I’ve only been working on the farm development for 4 years. Before that I’ve had 2 other smallholdings, one in a similar climate and one in a wet, lush and cool area.

A basic outline of how things work here is as follows.

The farm totals 175 acres. 

120 acres of bush (forest Aussie style) this provides endless firewood, shelter for animals in extreme weather and timber for construction as well as fence posts. We also graze our horses here to save the good feed for the more productive animals. The horses are not ‘working’ horses at the moment but if the SHTF they will be. 

We have a 5 acre field with 1900 irrigation points for future development as orchard and vineyard. This is a very long term project and will take much money and time (especially if the dam kangaroos keep eating everything off). Our aim is to produce a lot of fruit for ourselves and stock feed not to sell crops as a commercial venture, although we will sell some to help pay for the costs if we have to. 

The homestead yard is about 1 ½ acres and incorporates the vegetable garden (1/8 acre), the small orchard (¼ acre) a plant nursery that includes a 60 foot hot house, the barn and the pig farrowing yard. 

The rest is pasture, some is still quite poor native grassland. 

We keep 2 Dexter cross cows, one Dexter bull, one Wessex boar and two Wessex sows, grower pigs from previous litters , 5 horses, 20 or so sheep (including one ram), 6 goats, 25 or so ducks, 12 geese, about 50 hens and a few roosters. We also have hunting dogs (5), sheep dogs (3) and livestock guardian dogs (2) and farmyard cats for rodent control. We keep entire (fertile) females and males of everything......just in case. We will move the goats on (sold or eaten) soon and keep a few more of this years ewe lambs to bring our sheep numbers up a bit. 

The cows graze across most of the farm, the sheep where the fencing is adequate to keep them in and the pigs have ½ acre pens (electric fenced) moved through the year. We cell graze everything using temporary electric fences (mains powered units but we have battery/inverter systems as backup). The poultry are moved as well (although they do have a permanent poultry house in a 4 acre field) they spread out the animal manure by scratching it about, keep insects at bay and contribute to the general fertility.
At this stage we need to supplement feed the cows, sheep and horses during the winter and a bit at the end of summer and autumn. We do feed at other times but don’t really need to. The pigs get a farm produced feed made from local grains, mineral supplements, eggs and all the farm wastes. But our aim is to graze the pigs as much as possible when the pastures improve enough to support them as well.

After 4 years we produce all our vegetables, meat, eggs and quite a bit of fruit. When the cows calve next year we’ll add dairy products to that (although if we come across a cow in milk that we can afford before then we may be milking sooner). Other products include soaps, herbs, propagation material (seed and cuttings) and probably more I’ve forgotten.

Our water is from a deep well (electric pump, but we have both wind and solar ready to go) pumped into a 20,000 gallon storage tank and a large pond. The house water is from the roof and collected in tanks. 
There is much more to the system than I’ve outlined but this will give you a basic idea of how we work.

I can’t tell you much about small scale livestock sales, it would be so different over there. I would guess that your larger population is an advantage though. We post fertile eggs all over Australia and our piglets have gone as much as 1000 miles away via courier. We have to work at these sales, it’s not easy. Plants I sell via ebay or facebook. 

On the subject of excess meat, we have 10 dogs lol. If something happens that changes the rules (SHTF etc) we would feed it to the pigs and chooks etc (It’s illegal to feed pigs meat in Australia due to disease problems as we import pork from countries that have diseases we don’t, so they put a blanket ban on meat feeding) and we can’t give home killed meat to friends or relatives as that is also illegal. We do ‘sell’ other family members and friends live animals and they can process them here while we ummmm watch. As terrible as it sounds to some you can also slaughter very young animals if you feel you have too many for your farm to support, rather than grow them out. Suckling pig, veal etc.

Also it’s worth remembering that keeping livestock is not always easy and you will lose some to birthing problems, disease and for a hundred other reasons. One is none is a rule to remember in the farm yard as well as when prepping in general. We have two sows not because we need all those piglets (20 per year per sow is our average) but ‘just in case’ we lose one. It takes many months to raise a replacement. We always keep a young male and young female in our grower pen ‘just in case’. Same works for most of the livestock, the exception is the bull, we really don’t want to keep two. There are bulls on farms all around us, we hope we could trade for a new one if we needed to.

We are working toward running as closed a system as possible, the only new input being energy from the sun. In reality this is a hard if not impossible goal, we will also just want to add something even if it’s not really needed. We have such poor soils that we are deficient in just about everything (get a comprehensive soil sample done!) and this will effect everything from pasture growth to milk production and ultimately our own health. We know we need boron and selenium before we can grow anything here, so I’d like a life time supply (100 years worth) of these stored, we don’t need much (micro amounts) and it’s really not a huge outlay. We also need lime (calcium), my dream is to have a small lime mountain (we already have a lime molehill for the poultry to chew on) somewhere on the property, lol, it’s cheap by the ton and we can dress pastures with it and use it as a stock feed supplement. A diverse plant population will make more nutrients available to live stock as different plants pull different things from the soil, do a bit of research on this to get to know what will grow in your area. Deep rooted plants can pull needed nutrients to the surface for shallower rooted plants to make use of (once the deep rooted plants have rotted down or composted). Buying in hay (or other feed) that has been grown on ground that is higher in needed nutrients will add some to our soil. 

We don’t intend selling any food products made in the new kitchen, too much red tape in this country for that. If I can find the time I would like to teach other’s what we do though and maybe make a few extra dollars by doing so. There’s not much we are changing really, bigger pots and vats for cheese making means twice as much cheese for pretty much the same time spent, therefore I’ll do it half as often. The main efficiencies will be in having dedicated areas for each task, no need to pack everything away to make room for the next task. Some things can be done at the same time as I’ll have more space. I can make cheese while keeping an eye on the canner. I will be adding more stove top area, a commercial dishwasher (mainly because I have one!) to sterilise large pots and equipment, a commercial cake mixer (mainly for butter production and because I already have it), we’ll have a permanent spot for the meat bandsaw so I won’t have to put it away between uses. Having everything in place without having to dig through cupboards or storage containers will streamline things a lot. Big sinks will be so much easier than normal kitchen bowls, tiled walls and easy clean surfaces will also help. We want it be useable even if we go off grid so are keeping this very much in mind. 
This new kitchen is attached to the existing kitchen so is still very much a part of the family home.
At the moment we sterilise buckets etc by scalding (pour boiling water over once to heat the metal then again to get as hot as possible) or boiling in a copper (large old washing boiler). We can also use chemical methods similar to those used by commercial cheese makers or brewers but it costs too much over time. When the new kitchen is finished I’ll have the big dishwasher but not sure how often I’ll use it and of course it will only be useable while we are on the grid.

We are running 5 freezers at the moment (contains the beef as well as pork, goat, lamb, vegetables and pre cooked meals) and have the huge power bill that goes with that. I will can most of the beef as I can afford the jars (at least $4.00 each here, yep that’s each!) and shut down each freezer as I empty it. We use the freezer more as a tool to spread out processing time rather than permanent storage. Our aim is to have one solar powered chest freezer, we will simply be using a standard freezer and super insulating it, as well as making sure heat generated is carried well away from the freezer. If you have a look at specialised solar freezers you’ll find most are standard units with much thicker walls. Your idea of using a commercial freezer sounds good, just remember to carry the heat generated out of the cool areas.

I haven't really answered anything comprehensively but I hope it might lead you to do a bit of research in areas you may not have thought about. 
What works for me won't work for others so listen to all comers and take away anything that might help in your situation.


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## Jimthewagontraveler

I think there is a better way solve the goat vs cow dilemma
1 step go out to your driveway and look at your TRUCK.
No truck? Get a goat.
2 very carefully count every scratch or dent ( of any size)
No dent or scratch? Consider a cow.
3 look into the future of the vehicle ( or it's replacement )
Will there ever be a dent or scratch that stays for more than 1 week.
If no buy cows
If yes buy goats AND a hand crank powered vacuum milker.
That should clear things up pretty well but I hate to quit when I rolling so well.
So if you want an animal that comes running and dances around you when you call buy a bottle baby goat and build your herd slowly 1 birth at a time.
If you want to spend money on hospitals because you called it at feeding time buy a cow and raise it just as caring.
Any animal will announce combat.
Learn fast!
With a goat you should leave the horns and when it's teenaged it WILL try to play with you.
Slap the ears left right left right about 3 lessons does the trick.
NEVER TOUCH/LIFT etc goat horns that gives them status and they WILL want more.
When teenage cow ( BULL!) wants to play 
Step 1 run
Step 1 climb
Step 1 jump
Step1 are ya there yet?
Step 2 if ya didn't do step 1 right FLY ( please send film)
Today the bull crossed 40 acres for an ear scratch and a hand out
I still don't trust him!
1 month ago the biggest baldy mama on the property caught me 
On foot!
Middle of the field!
No tree!
No truck!
OH CRAP!!!
I heard both my 1 ton draft horses thunder up?
1 did a skid stop 10 feet to my left!
2 did a skid stop 10 feet to my right!
I AM SO LUCKY not smart just lucky!
Cow went elsewhere horses received much candy and 
MUCH grooming 
If its a cow it WILL be dangerous once a month or when it has a baby or when it's hungry.
If its a bull it will be dangerous when it has 1 tiny whiff of estrus or it's hungry or happy or scared or&hellip;
And those are the hand fed gentled ones!
And I don't give a crap what breed it is I have seen them all freak out.
I think the dexter may be the most gentle they will only kill you a little bit.
The goat was one of the first domestic animals and if you don't hand raise each one ( socialize ) or if they are ever mishandled 1 time ( vet? stockman?) they can put you in a world of hurt.
The goat will remain social forever if raised proper.
If you let cattle go for 6 months they start to get rangy.
If a buffalo wants to go from point a to point b it does not even see the fence/gate/barn wall/truck and there is no easier path than through.
Go look at a flatbed 1 ton truck and picture 2 cows up there with you because you did not put the grain out quick enough. By the way they have no interest in the bag laying there on the truck bed they want the one in your hands.
Don't ever trade posture's with an adult cow just run.

By the way did I mention somebody in every herd will chase anything that runs!?!
Yesterday we had 2 cows locked in battle to the point where somebody was gonna die so the owner here hit them both with the truck.
They both turned and rammed the truck and went back to each other
I hope they both made it but I would not know we left and they were still going at it!
A few days before that when I was just riding around I found a dead cow hmmm sick? Nope crushed ribs!
Do/will you ever have old people around?kids?stupid people?lawyers? 
Or worse ppl who want to start raising cattle but have never been a farmers helper for 6 months?
Tell me again why I raise cows?
Oh yea big money and I have 2 bottle babys that weigh a ton each who carry me safely through the day.
1 to carry me and 1 to run interference 
It's finally raining here so the cows will be on the highway soon.
I heard not all cattle operations are this way.
Maybe someday I will see one?


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## *Andi

Jimthewagontraveler said:


> I think there is a better way solve the goat vs cow dilemma
> 1 step go out to your driveway and look at your TRUCK.
> No truck? Get a goat.
> 2 very carefully count every scratch or dent ( of any size)
> No dent or scratch? Consider a cow.
> 3 look into the future of the vehicle ( or it's replacement )
> Will there ever be a dent or scratch that stays for more than 1 week.
> If no buy cows
> If yes buy goats AND a hand crank powered vacuum milker.
> That should clear things up pretty well but I hate to quit when I rolling so well.
> So if you want an animal that comes running and dances around you when you call buy a bottle baby goat and build your herd slowly 1 birth at a time.
> If you want to spend money on hospitals because you called it at feeding time buy a cow and raise it just as caring.
> Any animal will announce combat.
> Learn fast!
> With a goat you should leave the horns and when it's teenaged it WILL try to play with you.
> Slap the ears left right left right about 3 lessons does the trick.
> NEVER TOUCH/LIFT etc goat horns that gives them status and they WILL want more.
> When teenage cow ( BULL!) wants to play
> Step 1 run
> Step 1 climb
> Step 1 jump
> Step1 are ya there yet?
> Step 2 if ya didn't do step 1 right FLY ( please send film)
> Today the bull crossed 40 acres for an ear scratch and a hand out
> I still don't trust him!
> 1 month ago the biggest baldy mama on the property caught me
> On foot!
> Middle of the field!
> No tree!
> No truck!
> OH CRAP!!!
> I heard both my 1 ton draft horses thunder up?
> 1 did a skid stop 10 feet to my left!
> 2 did a skid stop 10 feet to my right!
> I AM SO LUCKY not smart just lucky!
> Cow went elsewhere horses received much candy and
> MUCH grooming
> If its a cow it WILL be dangerous once a month or when it has a baby or when it's hungry.
> If its a bull it will be dangerous when it has 1 tiny whiff of estrus or it's hungry or happy or scared or&#8230;
> And those are the hand fed gentled ones!
> And I don't give a crap what breed it is I have seen them all freak out.
> I think the dexter may be the most gentle they will only kill you a little bit.
> The goat was one of the first domestic animals and if you don't hand raise each one ( socialize ) or if they are ever mishandled 1 time ( vet? stockman?) they can put you in a world of hurt.
> The goat will remain social forever if raised proper.
> If you let cattle go for 6 months they start to get rangy.
> If a buffalo wants to go from point a to point b it does not even see the fence/gate/barn wall/truck and there is no easier path than through.
> Go look at a flatbed 1 ton truck and picture 2 cows up there with you because you did not put the grain out quick enough. By the way they have no interest in the bag laying there on the truck bed they want the one in your hands.
> Don't ever trade posture's with an adult cow just run.
> 
> By the way did I mention somebody in every herd will chase anything that runs!?!
> Yesterday we had 2 cows locked in battle to the point where somebody was gonna die so the owner here hit them both with the truck.
> They both turned and rammed the truck and went back to each other
> I hope they both made it but I would not know we left and they were still going at it!
> A few days before that when I was just riding around I found a dead cow hmmm sick? Nope crushed ribs!
> Do/will you ever have old people around?kids?stupid people?lawyers?
> Or worse ppl who want to start raising cattle but have never been a farmers helper for 6 months?
> Tell me again why I raise cows?
> Oh yea big money and I have 2 bottle babys that weigh a ton each who carry me safely through the day.
> 1 to carry me and 1 to run interference
> It's finally raining here so the cows will be on the highway soon.
> I heard not all cattle operations are this way.
> Maybe someday I will see one?


Oh CRAP!!! You had me :lolsmash::lolsmash::lolsmash:

Been there and done that!

:bullit:
When teenage cow ( BULL!) wants to play 
Step 1 run
Step 1 climb
Step 1 jump
Step1 are ya there yet?
Step 2 if ya didn't do step 1 right FLY ( please send film)

The son tried run, climb and jump ... don't work.  But the hammer to the bulls head at 20 paces did slow him down so he could run, jump amd climb (again) into a horse stall...(it was a very nice toss)

All fun aside ... "any" critter can put a hurtin on you... even if they are just playing.


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## kappydell

Jerseys are known as family homestead cows as they are genetically smaller, but also more docile. I have heard they are also the best cow for tethering out as opposed to putting in a pasture to graze. Coupled with their higher fat milk, they would seem a good choice.


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## Jimthewagontraveler

I have to admit I have never personally met anybody who has been stomped to death by a jersey


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## *Andi

Jimthewagontraveler said:


> I have to admit I have never personally met anybody who has been stomped to death by a jersey


We had a black jersey bull, his name was shotgun ... because you didn't go into the field without a gun.

A cow or bull of any breed can put a hurtin on you, given the chance.
Just a fact.


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