# Violence and the threat of violence-ramifications



## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

I'm figuring that there will be situations when we will be faced with problems and there won't be the Rule of Law, however, we might later be facing courts staffed by people who are making decisions about our actions in air conditioned offices, with full stomachs, feeling safe and having come to work after a full night of sleep, in contrast to the environment post disaster. This happened to folks who made snap decisions in the wake of Katrina in New Orleans and can happen to all of us.

What will most of us fall back upon for our criteria for use of force?


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

SurviveNthrive said:


> What will most of us fall back upon for our criteria for use of force?


Protecting home and family from those that would attempt cause us harm.


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

In the movei Red Heat with Arnold Schwarzenegger and James Belushi, I think it was Schwarzenegger who said shoot them first.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

UncleJoe said:


> Protecting home and family from those that would attempt cause us harm.


Sounds like a good plan to me. Doesn't mean I'm going to wait until they shoot first then shoot back. They just have to have desire and ability to inflict harm. At that point they're fair game.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Worrying about the reaction of the very people who were instermental in causing the problems that have led to the crumbling of society while trying to defend your loved ones is counterproductive, The little game of "wait for the authorities" gets a little old when facing down invaders, 
The "law" should be checking into why they failed to protect the people who were invaded. 
Home invasions are getting more and more common place because the cowards who do them are sure the Sheeple on the otherside of the door are more scared than they are.
The stupidest part is Leo s put their lives in danger to protect, only to have the "legal" system let the criminal element thru the revolving door to do it again.
:scratch
If you have to use deadly force to protect your loved ones (and this means your supplies,SHTF) make sure to use it all the way


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## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

That’s my plan also. That and having a corner of the garden available for extra fertilizer so that no one is the wiser. Nothing odd about a freshly tilled plot with newly planted seeds.

My Dad, when teaching me about firearms said, “Never point a gun at anyone, but if you do make sure it is loaded and be willing to pull the trigger.”


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## RoadRash (Sep 29, 2010)

Use of force is differant in Canada with so few guns compared to the USA .
I will protect family but would prefer to blend in. the fact that few know about our prepping up is good, I have already thought about it and with 9 of us in house someone will always be up and ready. I want us to appear as needy as anyone else, and of course the women and children stay indoors.
Kinda of blending in with the masses seem like u have nothing so why would u be attcked. If i am attacked we will defend. Why waste resources if it is a long drawn out SHTF I will need my resources for survival. 
Just my .02 
L8R RR


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

it's easier to beat a manslaughter rap than it is to pay someone damages they're/you're whole life... just sayin'


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

Kinda hard ta prosecute a case if there ain't no evidence!:dunno:


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## nj_m715 (Oct 31, 2008)

"Use of force is differant in Canada with so few guns compared to the USA ."
Use of force has nothing to do with the availability of guns. It has everything to do with force. Empty hands, knife, gun, bat, car, it doesn't matter. As long as you are within your rights and using the force to protect yourself or another person. 

In NJ those people sitting in air conditioned offices are required to consider the situation. Meaning they must put themselves in the person's shoes. How would a reasonable person with similar training and experience act in the same situation with the same information available at the time. Meaning if a person points a toy gun at you and you shoot him, it would be a reasonable response because you had no way of knowing at the time that the gun was a toy even though it was later discovered that it was a toy. Every state has different laws.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

SurviveNthrive, I like how you get us thinking. You've started some great threads! Thanks! 

Regarding your original question here, I guess I'd use force if the government has collapsed beyond repair or recovering, AND if my life or the lives of my family were at stake. 

Even now, if someone burst in our door waving a gun, I'd be going for mine. Not sure at what point I'd pull the trigger. I'd have to really believe it was life or death, but make no mistake about it, I WOULD pull the trigger.


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## jnrdesertrats (Jul 3, 2010)

I never served in the military or been a LEO, but I think I can do what needs to be done. One thing for sure is there will only be one side of the story...


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## nj_m715 (Oct 31, 2008)

If someone breaks through my door I don't need to wait to see him wave a gun or any other weapon. In NJ, in your home you only need to be in fear for the safety of your family to take action. There is no need to wait to see a weapon or even worse wait until it is pointed at you. My advice is do not wait, especially in your home. Do you think that POS cares about waiting? I hope you pull the trigger right away.


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

*This is not a new or a future problem*

When in the line of duty a LEO has to shoot, he usually has at most a couple of seconds to make the choice to shot or not... But regardless , the Lawyers always have months and months to prepare a case against the Officer.... and to twist things to fit their version..

Case in point young Marine lit up a wounded fighter in Iraq.. TV camera filmed it... then the film was used to try to put him in prison.. a Military court found him Not guilty last I heard.. but yet his actions were in the heat of battle and he reacted as trained..

Moral of the story...If you have to shoot there should be only one person testifying to the jury.."YOU"!... also reporters should have an open season on them.. they are scumbags as much as lawyers or is it..Lieyers..


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## nj_m715 (Oct 31, 2008)

Do what you feel is right. I don't want to be the guy caught on camera standing over a wounded man and firing several rounds into his chest to execute him so he can't testify. The reporters and lawyers will be having a field day, but it won't be on him. 

"shoot to stop", "double tap", "keep pulling the trigger until they stop moving toward" are all fine advise, but be careful how you word your advise. Don't get me wrong, I agree with your point, but I would never word it like that. You need to be in immanent fear for yourself or someone else to use force. If the fight is over, than the fight is over or else you will become the bad guy. 

God forbid that you had to use force and the other side walked into court with a print out of this thread in their hands. 
"So, Mr. Buck 15 years ago you wrote ...."


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## thunderdan19 (Oct 12, 2010)

If I catch someone unaware (they are not acting agressively toward me or my loved ones, not purposely trespassing on my property as such), they get exactly one fair warning, whether verbal or the sound of me pumping the shotgun or locking and loading. If they turn away, at worst they will get a warning shot (depending on whether they are trying to carry something away with them or not). If they turn toward me and become agressive or reach for/raise a weapon, it's over. If they respond respectfully like a decent human being (polite), I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, while remaining on guard. Maybe we can work something out. It would be desperate times, so who knows for sure...


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## Clarice (Aug 19, 2010)

If someone is breaking in my door, I would have to believe they were there to do harm. Shoot first ask questions later. If someone is plundering thru our stuff outside, I would let them hear me pumping the shotgun, I would not speak because I think they would hear the fear in my voice. Who knows how any of us would react?


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## HarleyRider (Mar 1, 2010)

OldCootHillbilly said:


> Kinda hard ta prosecute a case if there ain't no evidence!:dunno:


Them thar Florida 'gators can make lots of things disappear.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

HarleyRider said:


> Them thar Florida 'gators can make lots of things disappear.


You've just heard this, right?


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## RoadRash (Sep 29, 2010)

HarleyRider said:


> Them thar Florida 'gators can make lots of things disappear.


So do wood chippers and pigs LOL


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## kyfarmer (Feb 22, 2009)

OldCootHillbilly said:


> Kinda hard ta prosecute a case if there ain't no evidence!:dunno:


Now there's a man who knows mountain way's.  Mess with my family during any time and it's bad ju ju.


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## jkbrown_us (Oct 4, 2010)

One of the few benefits that government does provide is here in Texas. I just finished my class to be able to carry a concealed weapon. During that class we learned that in Texas lethal force can be used to protect yourself, your property, or others from a person committing a violent felony including robbery. The down side of using this force is you are almost guaranteed of getting arrested but you will probably beat being charged if you used any common sense. I started shooting in competitive events here and many LEO do as well. I am going to do more research on the realities of what we were taught but it still looks like Texas is going to be a much better place to justify using force after the fact in the scenario described.


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## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

jkbrown_us said:


> One of the few benefits that government does provide is here in Texas. I just finished my class to be able to carry a concealed weapon. During that class we learned that in Texas lethal force can be used to protect yourself, your property, or others from a person committing a violent felony including robbery. The down side of using this force is you are almost guaranteed of getting arrested but you will probably beat being charged if you used any common sense. I started shooting in competitive events here and many LEO do as well. I am going to do more research on the realities of what we were taught but it still looks like Texas is going to be a much better place to justify using force after the fact in the scenario described.


Welcome to Pennsylvania (_Except we don't require a class_).


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## Ron22 (Oct 30, 2009)

*Deadly Force*

Lots of good examples here. The circumstances of when deadly force would be okay can be broken down even further into what is called the "The Deadly Force Triangle".

Think of a triangle with each side having a name. These are Opportunity, Capability, and Intent. When all three are present then you can use deadly force.

Opportunity is met by their presence.

Capability can mean that they have a weapon or it could be that they are physically bigger and stronger and therefore capable of killing you are committing serious bodily harm on you. This can also be met by their being multiple attackers.

Intent can be shown by verbal threats.. ie, "I'm going to kill you"; or approaching in a threatening manner. It could also be shown by a failure to stop when ordered to do so. Especially if you are armed or you are on your own property. In most cases a rational person with no evil intent will stop if someone with a gun orders them to 

Now to use one of the examples that's been given here. An armed person or persons breaks into your home. They have Opportunity because they are there, they have Capability because they are armed, and they have shown Intent because they broke into your home. Under those circumstances you can use deadly force and you should have no worries about prosecution (unless it's malicious prosecution of course which does happen sometimes in some places that are particularly anti-gun)

When the entire thing is over... the most important phrase to remember is, "I was afraid for my life [and my families, or/ friends, etc..]

In many states you have duty to retreat if it is at all possible, the main exception being your home known at the Castle Doctrine. Some states, Florida being an example have instituted laws that protect you if you defend yourself in the event someone is committing a crime. You are protected and do not have to retreat but may defend yourself or others.


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## nj_m715 (Oct 31, 2008)

That's a good rule of thumb, but it depends on your state laws. As stated, in TX you can shoot someone for trying to take your car, even if you do it from the window of your house. Use of force to protect property is allow there. Here in NJ you can shoot an unarmed person in your house as long as you fear for the safety of your family. In both of those cases there may not be capability or intent to harm you, but you are within your rights according to the law. 

Be familiar with your laws and if something ever happens do not say anything to anyone. Ask to be taken to the hospital because you are "shaken up" and want to be checked out. Once the Dr. gives you something for the stress no law enforcement SHOULD be allowed to question you while you wait to talk to your lawyer. Expect to be arrested and have your weapon taken as evidence, even you did nothing wrong. It could happen, so be prepared, but it should be cleared up quickly. 

Protecting yourself legally after an incident is just as important as protecting yourself physically during an assault.


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

nj_m715 said:


> Do what you feel is right. I don't want to be the guy caught on camera standing over a wounded man and firing several rounds into his chest to execute him so he can't testify. The reporters and lawyers will be having a field day, but it won't be on him.
> 
> "shoot to stop", "double tap", "keep pulling the trigger until they stop moving toward" are all fine advise, but be careful how you word your advise. Don't get me wrong, I agree with your point, but I would never word it like that. You need to be in immanent fear for yourself or someone else to use force. If the fight is over, than the fight is over or else you will become the bad guy.
> 
> ...


Yep I did write it and I'll live or die by it.. as the hunting guide in MT told the jury after one of his hunters shot a charging grizzly...

"I never had one seconds doubt which was the endangered species"

Taking action when you think you should is your right, yes lawyers can screw with it... he who hesitates is lost! better tried by 12 then carried by 6..

Westerners and Easterners have a whole different way of looking at things... if your on trial in NJ your jury is made up of different people then one in MT... that is a fact...you have my pity..


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## Salekdarling (Aug 15, 2010)

bczoom said:


> Welcome to Pennsylvania (_Except we don't require a class_).


Yep, just got to pay a fee! =] I love PA.


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## paladin562 (Jun 30, 2010)

As Jeff Cooper said, "why worry about the law when your life is in danger". I miss that guy. I would love to hear what he would have to say about our current administration.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

Ron22 said:


> Lots of good examples here. The circumstances of when deadly force would be okay can be broken down even further into what is called the "The Deadly Force Triangle".


That is a great way to describe it. :2thumb:

Nice to have you on-board.


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## whisperingwinds (Oct 16, 2010)

paladin562 said:


> As Jeff Cooper said, "why worry about the law when your life is in danger". I miss that guy. I would love to hear what he would have to say about our current administration.


 I agree with that....I had never felt a need for a gun...until last week. I was robbed, my van, money and money card.
Funny thing about being robbed, at least with me...I feel stupid, God, I so feel so very very stupid. 
He has my keys, yes I have changed my locks and my ways too.
I bought a 38 and wondered if I should keep it loaded...It is now...what do you, my new friends, think?

I have no children, so that isn't a problem.

David is 103, and I MUST protect him.
The police cant do anything....at least thats what they said. 
I am so afraid right now....
So when the SHTF, I might have a little practice.
If I can ever sleep again.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

Sorry to hear about being robbed. Keep that 38 handy and loaded at all times and hope that you never need to use it. What did the robber have that convinced you to let him have your stuff - or - did he take it all when you were not looking?


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## whisperingwinds (Oct 16, 2010)

I hired him from the classified, auto mechanic. 

My van needed seals for the transmission.
So I hired him. He seemed so honest...at the time. 

As he came up with more and more problems with my van, (needed new transmission, alternator, battery, etc.

I got suspicious, the battery and alternator was 2 months old. I wouldn't give any more money to him. He must of snatched my card when he was here.

Now they found my van in a walmart parking lot. Walmart cameras has him driving it there and leaving it, the day he picked it up.
It was never even worked on.


With all the surveillance tapes they say I need a court order to see them. 

Weird thing is....today I was running late on depositing checks, and there he was, sitting in one of his trucks across the street. He saw that he was seen and took off!

Seems there will be trouble here.

I was so stupid!


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

You were tagged by a con-man, not an ordinary thief. He "makes his living" by telling people what they want to hear and taking their money. My dad was pulled in by a smooth-talking con-man as well and lost over $100k to him. In fact, the con-man was so good that he took his own retired mother for over $250k ...

Don't feel bad about it, feel mad and let that anger protect you from it ever happening again.


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## dakada (Jun 4, 2010)

*violence*

hi, 
i have been reading this forum for awhile. i am so grateful for all your thoughts and wisdom.
i never comment but felt the need to let you know what happened to my husband and me.
we had a home invasion. last year. 2 men came out of the heavy brush, shot at my husband, took the keys to our chevy. forced their way into our home.
my husband had a moment to get ahead of them, they were scared because our dogs were barking.
i had no idea anything had happened. i was in another part of house with the fans on and didn't hear the gunshot. when i walked up hallway and saw my husband trying to keep them out by pushing on front door, i joined him.
they started shooting. they overpowered us and entered house. 
i was shot, in my leg, they just missed the big artery there.
they tied my husband up right away. they knew i was hurt and didn't tie me up until the end.
i managed to talk them through what they wanted and give it to them. the keys to both of our trucks, the money on our bodies and the combination to the cattle gate at the bottom of our mountain. so they could leave in our trucks and not damage them! 
they had walked up and were watching us, planning their invasion.
we did have a gun in our home. it all happened so fast. in the heat of the invasion, i feel like the only thing going through a persons mind is to fight back, to survive.
i now feel like a person would have to carry a firearm to be able to protect themselves and their family immediately.
i also know that believing that we would know how to respond during the time you are attacked is totally different than actually having the training and immediate response as a reaction.
we need to make sure we have the skills to protect ourselves not just the equipment.
they took our trucks, some money but more importantly they took any security i had. the terror of that morning is still with me but we are so lucky to have our lives. i am grateful every moment.
thanks for all of your information. it helps knowing that there are people who are speaking out about our personal safety and the need to make sure we are prepared.
oh, one last thought, they thought we had money. we had just finished building our dream home and it was in a very remote location. i feel as they had been part of one of the crew in the building process.
i have never returned to that home. any home of ours in the future will definitely be low-key and built by a skeleton of a crew.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

Wow, dakada. That's some serious stuff you went through. My sympathy to you. I'm glad you both survived.

I hope you will be able to feel secure in your new home. 

We never believe it'll happen to us. And you're right, it happens SO fast.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

Got some scary thngs happening to people. We tend to forget that the crooks have already thought out their moves and can act instantly. We are always on the defensive so act slower. That's why the military and police rehearse and practice for certain situations. That way the react quickly. It sounds paranoid but it's a good idea to rehearse, at least in thought, what you would do if ...? It saves in reaction time. Try to think like the crook. How would you handle a situation if you were up to no-good? Plan a home invasion of your own home. Plan out how you would ambush someone on the street to take their money or worse only pretend that you are the victim. It's a scary way to live so most don't do it but the crooks do it all the time and you can bet that if they come for you they've already planned how to do it.

I'm sorry for the harm you've suffered. It really can happen to anyone so don't blame yourselves.


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## Concerned_ Citizen (Jan 20, 2010)

*Thank you for sharing your exp dakada*

My family and I just moved into our first home.....4 1/2 acres out in the country.....2 days after we moved in, I purchased my first firearm....Mossburg 500 12 gauge. I have been running all these types of scenerios in my head......trying to teach my wife what to do if someone tries to break into the home.....My instruction was to lock herself in the bedroom with our daughter, sit down in the corner of the room and point the gun at the door, unload the whole thing if the door opens.......

I was told by a guy at work about reasonable force and all that.......He said its simple......for someone such as myself or my wife that have received little to none proffesional instruction that if i need to use a gun on someone to unload every round the gun has.........That way it shows we where definitely feeling fear....

For someone that has tons of experience, maybe won a bunch of comps etc....use the least amount of ammo as not to look to gun ho........made sense to me.

Kinda like if I where to get into a fight with mike tyson and he punched me 100 times breaking bones and what not knowing fair well one properly place punch would put me out of commission.....


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

Concerned_ Citizen said:


> ..for someone such as myself or my wife that have received little to none proffesional instruction that if i need to use a gun on someone to unload every round the gun has.........That way it shows we where definitely feeling fear....


 Just one or two rounds of #1 buck is enough, Setting in a corner with an empty gun isn't any good if there are more intruders out there.Usually not saying anything and just sliding back the receiver to put a shell in the chamber is enough for most intruders.


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## Jason (Jul 25, 2009)

I've always heard that you get one shot. Shoot the baddie once when he is in your house and make sure it's a kill shot. Doing so means 1(you can't be testified against and 2( he got close enough to you that you got him with one shot even with the adreneline pumping.

I live in PA and yes, I do have a carry permit, no class required.


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## pdx210 (Jan 8, 2010)

nj_m715 said:


> In NJ those people sitting in air conditioned offices are required to consider the situation. Meaning they must put themselves in the person's shoes. How would a reasonable person with similar training and experience act in the same situation with the same information available at the time. Meaning if a person points a toy gun at you and you shoot him, it would be a reasonable response because you had no way of knowing at the time that the gun was a toy even though it was later discovered that it was a toy. Every state has different laws.


Remember what they must consider is also a side presented to them by a DA, homicide detectives

We have a family friend that is a retired homicide detective. At a family event one time we were talking about CC and guns and he tells me if you are out in the middle of nowhere and are forced to kill someone in self defense to bury their body leave and never go back. His opinion of his former job was to take evidence and figure out how to make it into a criminal case&#8230; Not to find the truth.


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## GatorDude (Apr 23, 2009)

Whoa guys! I'd suggest that you buy some of the gun rags and start reading the articles of Mossad Ayoob. He is an expert on police and civilian self-defense shootings and usually has lots of good practical advice about self-defense, shooting incidents, and the legal ramifications of using force.

I've got a couple of observations:
1) If you shoot someone and conceal their body or flee the scene, you will look guilty. You must call the police first, seek legal representation, and be prepared to defend your actions.

2) You are shooting to stop criminal activity and the threat that you face. Shoot until the threat is stopped. Overkill does not look good to a jury and it wastes ammunition that could be used for additional threats (accomplices).

3) Ayoob has examined a lot of bad reactions (drag the body inside, shoot until the assailant is dead, plant a "throw-down weapon" on a dead perp, flee, throw your weapon in the river) and has shown how they have had disastrous legal consequences for individuals involved in a shooting.

Beyond Ayoob, you'll want to research the laws where you live and think about how you would deal with the aftermath of a shooting.


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

pdx210 said:


> Remember what they must consider is also a side presented to them by a DA, homicide detectives
> 
> We have a family friend that is a retired homicide detective. At a family event one time we were talking about CC and guns and he tells me if you are out in the middle of nowhere and are forced to kill someone in self defense to bury their body leave and never go back. His opinion of his former job was to take evidence and figure out how to make it into a criminal case&#8230; Not to find the truth.


Good thing he is retired, because he should lose his badge!

Dirty Cop giving out bad advice.


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## pdx210 (Jan 8, 2010)

always seemed honest to me maybe thats the real problem he's honest!

problem is the system isn't always honest. his real point you are a killer calling the cops and admitting to or tying yourself to a homicide you are now 2/3 the way to being a murderer they will build a case on physical and circumstantial evidence. They will not look at this from a standpoint of proving your innocence but your guild as a murderer. They will dig through your personal life, computers, people you know!

Here's a guy that served 27 Years in prison and DNA testing proved his innocence whats the DA to do ...? "The State Attorney's Office asserts that it plans to retry Mr. Dillon"

Innocent Man Released After 27 Years | Death Penalty |Axisoflogic.com

and cops never break the law or lie

Video Saves Innocent Men From Crooked Cops | News One


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

If you shoot someone in this country, it's the cops job to string you up and the DAs job to slap the horse out from under you.You may get off after spending your lifes savings,mortgage your house and making msome layers very rich, we're over lawed,prosecuted,over investigated and under common sensed, if this make sense.


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

lotsoflead said:


> If you shoot someone in this country, it's the cops job to string you up and the DAs job to slap the horse out from under you.You may get off after spending your lifes savings,mortgage your house and making msome layers very rich, we're over lawed,prosecuted,over investigated and under common sensed, if this make sense.


What country do you live in? That's horrific. I'm glad I live in the U.S.A.!


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## pdx210 (Jan 8, 2010)

lotsoflead said:


> If you shoot someone in this country, it's the cops job to string you up and the DAs job to slap the horse out from under you.You may get off after spending your lifes savings,mortgage your house and making msome layers very rich, we're over lawed,prosecuted,over investigated and under common sensed, if this make sense.


Maybe,.. truth is you are at the mercy of the system. Don't get me wrong i have much respect for law enforcement but there are plenty of examples where cops and DA bend and twist the truth. Ultimately some of the people that run the justice system are not honest, truthful or ethical.

"How police harassment, jailhouse snitches, and a runaway war on drugs imprisoned an innocent family"

Guilty Before Proven Innocent - Reason Magazine

"Michael Toney Was Convicted for the Bombing Murder of 3 People - Nine Years Later, the DA Admits to Hiding Exculpatory Evidence"

DA Watch: Texas Death Row Inmate Toney Freed Last Night and May Not Face Re-Trial | Dallas Criminal Defense Lawyer Blog - DWI Attorney

"spent 19 years behind bars after being framed by a notorious New York Police Department detective who also doubled as killer for the mob."

Barry Gibbs, Framed For Murder By "Mafia Cop", Gets Record Settlement From City


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## semperscott (Nov 7, 2010)

As American's we have the right to own and carry weapons as GUARANTEED by the Second Amendmant. Anybody breaking into my house, truck, barn, or anything else that I own will be 'double tapped'. 

But since I lost ALL of my guns in the middle of the lake as I was fishing and my boat overturned, any thought of 'double tapping' a criminal is just hypothetical!


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

dakada said:


> hi,
> i have been reading this forum for awhile. i am so grateful for all your thoughts and wisdom.
> i never comment but felt the need to let you know what happened to my husband and me.
> we had a home invasion. last year. 2 men came out of the heavy brush, shot at my husband, took the keys to our chevy. forced their way into our home.
> ...


Dakada
I'm sorry you folks had to go thru that and I'm sorry you've given up on your dream home , but giving up on it is up to yawl... what I or others would do isn't at issue..

I have a lady friend who when running the vacuum has her 9mm Glock on her belt., they live way out and are isolated and they have had bears and Mtn Lions wonder thru the yard.. but mostly it's because she can't hear and feels better knowing she can defend herself, she is a shooter and works at it.. seems overboard paranoid to some folks.. seems normal to me.

I have a friend who is a FED LEO, god as my witness he takes a handgun into the shower with him...

I'm a former Marine and Leo and I carry every minute I'm not in bed and even then I have never less then 2 weapons close to hand..

My point is that no matter who you are, where you are, night or day, trouble can come at you.. I too have a dog now and she lets me know if there is something or somebody moving around in the night.. I just lay there and wait until she lays down then I go back to sleep.. IF there is something out there they can stay out there, I'm long past the run out into the night thing, It/they can come in , then I'm in charge..

Please take this as I mean it... Having been in the place you were you can either let them win by staying closed in for the rest of your life ( meaning living in fear) or you can deal with it...

Look around, find a good NRA certified instructor , get some schooling in gun safety and handling, then find a shooting club or school, pay the money , go to a good one there are 100 poor ones for every good one, and 100 good ones for the few best of the best... it ain't cheap.. I won't recommend one I'll leave that to others I've never been to one ..lol.. I've been at the shooting game since I was 4 yo... and it seems all I've done all my life has involved guns.. anyway, check it out, get a gun, work at being not good.. but being great with it.. I've shot against a lot of ladies in match's and a bunch of them have handed me my butt at days end.. you can do it, anybody can if they have the spark.. the spark to live but not in fear, to live but not in the shadows..

It's mostly about being aware , knowing where your at every minute... control your life in all ways..

Example... When going into a restaurant I never just sit where the Hostess wants to seat me.. I look around and find the exit door, and a corner table and that's where I tell her/him that I want to sit, I've seldom gotten an argument.. and when I did I just said then I'll wait until that spot is available , it can PO whomever is with me but that's fine.. Should it bother somebody where I sit? I'm renting the table, I'm paying somebody to take my order and bring it to me , if they do this in a good manner then I'm a very good tipper if not I don't go back. this is controlling your life.. don't be a member of the herd being driven along.. find your own path..

I've had many ladies get in a snit because I reseated them so I could have to view of the room... TS ,they aren't armed, they can't defend us, if they were and could and I knew they were aware , I'd still sit so I can see the room.. life is short so why catch the express ride?

Two men I use as example when I explain my reasoning to these folks who think I'm being overly paranoid are .. James Butler Hickok and John Wesley Hardin , both old west gun fighters one a Lawman, the other just a killer, both lived by the rule of never sit with your back to the door, yet both did, one time and both died with a bullet in the back of the head... Paranoid? hell yes but not paranoid enough it seems.. Hardin killed 42 men or so they say... I doubt it but..

Anyway I do have a tendency to babble on and on.. coz I'm a story teller I guess...

My point to you is, learn from it, get training, get, not good ,get damn good.. live your life on your terms not the terms of the past, you came out alive last time , next time ( and there well may be one) come out the winner !! better to be tried by 12 then carried by six... and maybe, if you ain't sold your home, think about it ,it's your dream home.. why let the bastards win twice... just plan to win next time.

Sorry for being so long winded but I really believe every word I wrote and i live them every day. I hope they keep me alive but if not you can rest assured I did not go into the night alone...or at least without a fight...

Good luck and I hope you will give this some thought.


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## sailaway (Mar 12, 2009)

OldCootHillbilly said:


> Kinda hard ta prosecute a case if there ain't no evidence!:dunno:


I have to agree with Rev. Coot. Use a revolver, there aren't any cartridges to police up.:sssh:


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

SurviveNthrive said:


> What country do you live in? That's horrific. I'm glad I live in the U.S.A.!


Dude can I use the time machine when yer done?? It ain't 1953 anymore 
what Lotsoflead said applies to current USA and Canada more so in mexico


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

1. If it's like that there, why would you be foolish enough to live there? Why wouldn't you move on?

2. Perhaps it's a matter of association and behaviors. I don't hang with people who have problems with the law.


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## nj_m715 (Oct 31, 2008)

sailaway said:


> I have to agree with Rev. Coot. Use a revolver, there aren't any cartridges to police up.:sssh:


If that's your plan, than use a scattergun, no ballistics!

But like I said, know your state laws if you have a weapon. In TX you can shoot someone who is breaking into your truck, but in NJ you are required to report it to the police, you can only use force to protect yourself or another person when there is no other option (like retreat) available to you. There is no need for a shovel if you did nothing wrong.


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

SurviveNthrive said:


> 1. If it's like that there, why would you be foolish enough to live there? Why wouldn't you move on?
> 
> 2. Perhaps it's a matter of association and behaviors. I don't hang with people who have problems with the law.


 Maybe you should come out of your cave and live in the real world for a while as you have no clue as to what you're talking about.


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

I believe that even in just comparative screen names, one of us definitely has a better center and understanding of reality.

If your version of your personal existence is that terrible place you portray, it's more a matter of poor decision making than how things can be. Wouldn't it be silly to operate in such a place, where everyone, including the court system and law enforcement are out to getcha?


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

Like i said come out of your cave, you've read something into the post that just isn't there, like what do screen names have to do with anything. good bye.


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

What I'll maintain: I'd strongly advise that anyone who gets involved in a self-defense shooting IMMEDIATELY, make sure that you secure the scene. Use your cell phone to take a picture of the firearm or weapon carried by the other party because it might disappear, make sure that you're not holding a firearm when the police show up and lawyer up.

Those who want to play power games with the police and the courts are silly.


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## pdx210 (Jan 8, 2010)

SurviveNthrive said:


> IMMEDIATELY, make sure that you secure the scene.


You the suspect secured the scene? .... so you could plant the weapon and manipulate evidence of the cold blooded murder you committed



SurviveNthrive said:


> Use your cell phone to take a picture of the firearm or weapon carried by the other party because it might disappear


DA expert say the victim could have been dead an hour or more before the defendant called police. Further more, our own police photos of the scene when compared with our photos from the defendants cell phone clearly show the gun and other evidence had been move or staged after the defendant took cell phone photos further showing his desire to hide his crime.

Then the DA brings up family members /friends of the murdered man that say he didn't own a gun or ever seen the knife.

even though it was rookie cop that lost his cool moved stuff by the time he fess up to the DA if he does they will suppress this info.

I'm not telling anyone to hide the body and run. I was told by a retired homicide detective If you kill someone in self defense and have no witnesses out in the middle of no where you have a big problem.


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## sailaway (Mar 12, 2009)

The small city of 24,000 I live in has been averaging a shooting a week. We are almost 70% minority. Most are on food stamps and section 8 housing. There are alot of crack houses and gangs.:surrender: It is smart to have some sort of protection around here.


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

pdx210 said:


> You the suspect secured the scene? .... so you could plant the weapon and manipulate evidence of the cold blooded murder you committed
> 
> DA expert say the victim could have been dead an hour or more before the defendant called police. Further more, our own police photos of the scene when compared with our photos from the defendants cell phone clearly show the gun and other evidence had been move or staged after the defendant took cell phone photos further showing his desire to hide his crime.
> 
> ...


Very bad advice, nevery harmful and criminal.

If you get involved in a self defense shooting, call 911.


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## whisperingwinds (Oct 16, 2010)

dakada said:


> hi,
> i have been reading this forum for awhile. i am so grateful for all your thoughts and wisdom.
> i never comment but felt the need to let you know what happened to my husband and me.
> we had a home invasion. last year. 2 men came out of the heavy brush, shot at my husband, took the keys to our chevy. forced their way into our home.
> ...


 Wow, I am just glad you both are alive.

The shame is having to give up, what was your dream, security and choices.

Fight or Flight.... Did they ever catch the thiefs?

I suppose I would probably get killed trying to find them, if noone else did.

Just a little humor here (kinda), but the pharohs used to throw the workers, that knew of the secret places, in a grave too. :gaah:


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