# Hiding Pain Killers from addicts



## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

This is a topic I have thought about before, and this story illustrates part of my concerns. 
http://blogs.babycenter.com/mom_stories/grieving-mom-message-06272015-jacksons-light/



> A grieving mom's plea: We never, ever, imagined this could happen
> 
> Liza Piper, a Montessori teacher from the Pacific Northwest, is speaking out to share "the most tragic heartbreak in our family's life" in hopes her message can save the life of someone we love. You see, close to one year ago, her 15-year-old son Jackson died suddenly.
> 
> ...


I have had company at my house, one person who I later figured out was an addict of some painkillers. She claims to be in recovery, from alcohol and cocaine, but I believe she has one last dirty little secret. I know she gets prescription pain medication from other people.

I also now believe that she rifled through my 3 medicine cabinets and night stands, looking to see what I might have that she could take. It is common, to always be on the search, and it happened in this story.

It happens to be that I have never taken prescription pain medications that I remember. I do have aspirin in every medicine cabinet and night stand.

But if this is a potential problem, where would be a better place to store medications than in their typical place? I do have a couple medical to go bags, but aspirin is what I have for pain in there. I also have some alternatives to aspirin, but not much.

If I had a teenager at home, or had frequent teenage visitors, and if I had painkillers, I would not be leaving them in the normal places. I would want some oddball place to keep them.


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## DrPrepper (Apr 17, 2016)

Weedy, over the last 30 years of nursing, I have seen so many lives ended or destroyed by prescription pain medications. I blame our society in large part. We want to be painless- and there has to be a drug to take away all of our pain. I've taken care of patients who had really significant surgery and were angry to find out we could not completely remove their pain afterwards. What did they expect? I also find that even though there are great non-opioid pain killers available- toradol (Ketoralac) is one and ultram (tramadol) is another, people are often not interested. Both are great for post-operative pain, neither one lends itself to addiction, and neither one gives the high or rush that you get with morphine, dilaudid, or oxycodone. Because of the lack of side effects, people do not want to take toradol or ultram- they want the rush. We see so many people in the emergency department who are in pain but refuse pain killers offered and instead demand dilaudid (hydromorphone) or morphine. It is really sad to see how people's lives can really be ruined by a drug that was invented to help people! We see at least a couple of overdoses a week in patients taking more than the prescribed amount, and we see far too many kids taking grandma's pills and then OD-ing.

I know many of us in this forum may have prescription pain meds put aside for SHTF events, but I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to not store them in traditional places like medicine cabinets. I recommend locked metal storage boxes, or even placing them in a gun safe or other type of secure place where guests, kids, and especially addicts cannot be tempted by them. 

If you have old pain meds that you do not want to keep around (expired, etc), do not flush them. Contact your local pharmacy, drug store, or even local police department to find out when they are having a drug take-back event. My hospital does this a few times a year where meds can be turned in and properly disposed of without getting into the water table. The good thing is these events are "no questions asked" events, not stings to arrest drug users.


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## camo2460 (Feb 10, 2013)

Get yourself one of those small fire proof lock boxes from Wal-Mart, they're pretty cheap, put your med's in it, lock it and slide it under the bed. I doubt if your average "druggie" will find it, and if they do, they will not want to take the time, or make the noise trying to get it opened.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

*Thank you!*

Great idea to lock them up in a gun safe or other lock box. Thank you, DrDiana Anderson and Camo! Simple and effective, if I ever get that type of medication. But it is also good to pass onto others that are in pain. I have a friend who has degenerative disc issues and takes morphine.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

An addict will find a way to get the drugs. If they don't steal them from you, they'll steal your valuables to go buy them. Everything & everyone is a means to the next high. 

When we had teens in the house, I made sure all prescription meds were locked up in the safe when they had company. I always kept a count on all narcotics in my house, occupational hazard. No one got into them but me. 

Parents say there were no signs, but there's almost always signs. Too many parents are too busy doing other things to be actively involved in the lives of their teens, so they miss those signs. If you ask the teens friends, teachers, etc. somebody's not all that surprised.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

We have a small wall mounted locking medicine cabinet above the toilet. When ever we use the potty we see the cabinet. Right now it is not locked and does not have any thing in it except a box of latex free gloves and my urine sample cups from my ob-gyn. The painkillers we do have are in a small locked box buried under frozen peas in the freezer.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

tsrwivey said:


> Parents say there were no signs, but there's almost always signs. Too many parents are too busy doing other things to be actively involved in the lives of their teens, so they miss those signs. If you ask the teens friends, teachers, etc. somebody's not all that surprised.


I totally agree with this. I think it isn't just teens who people give too much credit to. My cousin, "who is in recovery" has so many family members fooled. The manipulation and b.s. that comes out of people's mouths when they are deep into addiction becomes so convincing, sometimes they convince themselves.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

Keep positive control of your sensitive items. Always good advice.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

I know a teen that got hooked on pain meds after a sports injury and stole prescription pads. I know a home care nurse that stole prescription pain and other meds from her patients. To pay for the drugs that she couldn't steal she stole from her mother and daughter. It's not just kids you have to worry about. Addicts are pro's at hiding their addiction.


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## Cotton (Oct 12, 2013)

It happens to almost all families, even mine. A pain killer addict caught red handed stealing from another family member. He even stole from me… At my age doctors throw Hydrocodone at you, especially if you have been trampled by a bull. Christmas dinner hasn’t been pleasant for several years…


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

Many people, particularly older people, falsely believe that they have nothing worth making them a target for burglary or home invasion.

Your prescription drugs are all you need have to make you a target for addicts .

Be discreet at the drug counter and in public when discussing your medications.

Do not leave them in plain sight at home or in your hotel room.

There are people who will kill you for your prescription medication.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

I get that people are misusing pain killers but I'm concerned about patients with chronic pain, & even those with moderate to severe acute pain, getting the relief they need. 

When I went to nursing school, it was drilled into our heads that pain is a vital sign, it hurts as bad as the patient says it does, & it should be treated as such. To me, the whole idea of practicing medicine is to ease suffering. I don't have chronic pain, by the grace of God go I. I've taken care of patients with it though & I worry about their future ability to get relief. 

I take hydrocodone when I hurt my back with a patient or playing construction worker. I only need it for a day or two but when I need it, I need it. I've never gotten high off of it, I take it because it's one of the few things I can take that doesn't make me feel sleepy, nauseous or foggy & actually works. It doesn't make me feel any kind of way but pain free (or at least decrease the pain to a functional level)I'm giving 20 different meds to medically fragile kids, I can't be foggy. My last script was written after my C-section with Cam four years ago. In the past, I've always just been able to call my OBGYN & he'd call me in a script. I wonder if it will still be that easy? Will I now have to pay for an office visit instead of just a $4 prescription because some idiots want to get high?


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

tsrwivey said:


> I get that people are misusing pain killers but I'm concerned about patients with chronic pain, & even those with moderate to severe acute pain, getting the relief they need.
> 
> When I went to nursing school, it was drilled into our heads that pain is a vital sign, it hurts as bad as the patient says it does, & it should be treated as such. To me, the whole idea of practicing medicine is to ease suffering. I don't have chronic pain, by the grace of God go I. I've taken care of patients with it though & I worry about their future ability to get relief.
> 
> I take hydrocodone when I hurt my back with a patient or playing construction worker. I only need it for a day or two but when I need it, I need it. I've never gotten high off of it, I take it because it's one of the few things I can take that doesn't make me feel sleepy, nauseous or foggy & actually works. It doesn't make me feel any kind of way but pain free (or at least decrease the pain to a functional level)I'm giving 20 different meds to medically fragile kids, I can't be foggy. My last script was written after my C-section with Cam four years ago. In the past, I've always just been able to call my OBGYN & he'd call me in a script. I wonder if it will still be that easy? Will I now have to pay for an office visit instead of just a $4 prescription because some idiots want to get high?


My first and last prescription was for hydroncodone after my c-section with Roo. I still have 90% of it almost 5 years later. Like you I have only used a pill here or there to ease a pulled back or very bad body pain. Never felt high.

K got a prescription for Oxy right after the car accident that totaled the Saturn. He took 2 pills out of the bottle the first few days and stopped. He didn't like the way they made him feel. I still have these pills as well tucked away for emergencies and I know how many are in the bottle.

I never got getting high from pain pills.


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## DrPrepper (Apr 17, 2016)

tsrwivey said:


> I get that people are misusing pain killers but I'm concerned about patients with chronic pain, & even those with moderate to severe acute pain, getting the relief they need.
> 
> When I went to nursing school, it was drilled into our heads that pain is a vital sign, it hurts as bad as the patient says it does, & it should be treated as such. To me, the whole idea of practicing medicine is to ease suffering. I don't have chronic pain, by the grace of God go I. I've taken care of patients with it though & I worry about their future ability to get relief.
> 
> I take hydrocodone when I hurt my back with a patient or playing construction worker. I only need it for a day or two but when I need it, I need it. I've never gotten high off of it, I take it because it's one of the few things I can take that doesn't make me feel sleepy, nauseous or foggy & actually works. It doesn't make me feel any kind of way but pain free (or at least decrease the pain to a functional level)I'm giving 20 different meds to medically fragile kids, I can't be foggy. My last script was written after my C-section with Cam four years ago. In the past, I've always just been able to call my OBGYN & he'd call me in a script. I wonder if it will still be that easy? Will I now have to pay for an office visit instead of just a $4 prescription because some idiots want to get high?


tsrwivey,
First off, my admiration of you just grew, knowing you provide pediatric care. It takes a really special person to work with medically fragile kids (and I am not one of them!) so thank you!

I do have chronic pain as a result of a car accident, 3 fusions to my ankle, a knee replacement on one knee and bone-on-bone arthritis in the other, bulging disks in my back, etc. I DO NOT take pain meds, and I do go to work every day. I believe there are 2 kinds of people with chronic pain: those who give up and rely on pills to get through the day, and those who choose to grit their teeth and move forward. I choose the latter. I would rather hurt and LIVE than exist in a painless clouded world. There are times when I understand people choosing the drugs- end-stage cancer, after a bad wreck, major surgery, etc. Those are times when it is truly appropriate. I think, though, that when people with chronic pain rely on drugs, it is more that they are treating their fear of pain than the pain itself. And, since pain is really psychogenic, that makes sense. I would rather work through the fear and avoid "better living through chemistry"!

As for calling your doc and getting a scrip, good luck with that! With all of the current attention being shown to opioid use, the govt is really tightening down how easily physicians can prescribe these medications.

I agree with you 100% that our role is to ease suffering, and I have worked with many patients to teach them non-pharmaceutical means of pain relief. Distraction, guided imaging, relaxation techniques, etc. are all validated, evidence-based means of pain management, and I prefer to try them for chronic pain sufferers whenever possible to avoid the addictive potential of heavy narcotics.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

My pain doc has informed me that he will not write a script if he has not seen me in over 90 days. He needs to keep himself out of trouble with the feds.

I take half pill at a time. I hate feeling like my head is inside a bag of cotton balls. I have been in pain for so long and have mostly avoided pills for so long I am often able to ignore the pain. 

I try to keep a few pills set aside. When I have a reserve it is easier to ignore the pain. When I run low I worry more about the pain and therefore take more meds.


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## camo2460 (Feb 10, 2013)

I also hate to take Pain Med's, and only took the lowest dose possible when the Pain became unbearable. Now, however, with my only Kidney on the verge of collapse I only take the Medications that are absolutely necessary to keep my B/P and B/S under control. If I have out of control Pain it has become a "Bite the Bullet" situation. Mostly my Pain comes in the form of Cluster Headaches that can become so bad I refer to them as "Shoot Me Headaches". I am not looking forward to the next one.


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

After my last knee operation, I was prescribed Perkadan (not sure about the spelling). They did not kill the pain but I did not really care --- whoopee. :eyebulge: The doc declined to provide a refill and I kept the extra pills for several years. Worked outstanding on very severe headaches. I just wanted the refill for long term use. Smart Doc., sly patient.:laugh:


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

tmttactical said:


> After my last knee operation, I was prescribed Perkadan (not sure about the spelling). They did not kill the pain but I did not really care --- whoopee. :eyebulge:


I took those after having wisdom teeth dug out when I was 21. Silly me had it done on a Thursday afternoon, so by the time the meds I got in the office wore off & I figured out I can eat Percocet like M&M's, I was screwed. Tylenol & Advil worked better for me. I learned another valuable lesson when I tried to get ahold of my dentist on a Friday :laugh: (they're on the golf course). Luckily I had a dope head sister & brother in law who hooked me up with God knows what pill but it took the pain away.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

DrDianaAnderson said:


> tsrwivey,
> First off, my admiration of you just grew, knowing you provide pediatric care. It takes a really special person to work with medically fragile kids (and I am not one of them!) so thank you!


Those kids are awesome. Pedi home health nursing is a pretty unique setting. It's centered on the whole patient, which allows me to learn physical therapy, occupational therapy, speech therapy, etc. We are often their first teachers because they're too fragile to go to school. I love it & I wouldn't do well working with whiny adults. :laugh:


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

I have had a few opportunities where I probably could have had pain pills. I honestly do not remember ever having them. I have always used aspirin for pain, and only in the last decade or so have I gotten Canadian 222s. I only have 2 or 3 in the house now. They really were not noticeably different for pain.

When I was a senior in college I had all 4 wisdom removed one day. I was living in a house with 5 others. It was 3 days later and we had a party. A man told me he was in such pain because he had his wisdom teeth removed 3 weeks ago. I told him I had had mine removed 3 days ago, and the relief was amazing. He looked at me like I was lying. I was not. My wisdom teeth were sideways and pushing forward with such pressure, it truly was a relief. No pain meds for me that I remember.

I have gotten migraines since I was 13 or 14. They can be debilitating. The best relief for me has been using 3 or 4 aspirin/acetaminophen/caffeine combination pills.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

*Addicts affect many*

http://www.westword.com/news/rocky-...surgical-tech-is-hiv-patients-freaked-7967320

This is one of the local stories that is scary, very scary. This is a man who was a "surgical technician" whose "job" allowed him access to all the drugs he wanted to use.

There are other stories out there, but this has lots of people potentially now scrambling. We really do need to tighten laws and guidelines for people who deal with heavy duty pain meds.



> Rocky Allen, Accused Needle-Swapping Surgical Tech, Is HIV+, Patients Freaked
> 
> Earlier this year, we introduced you to surgical tech Rocky Allen, who was accused of swapping needles to inject the high-powered painkiller fentanyl - a situation that led to a recommendation that nearly 3,000 patients be tested for hepatitis B and C, as well as HIV.
> 
> ...


There is a 14 page legal document shown.

This story comes from a newspaper called The Westword. It was started by 3 people decades ago. They were recent college graduates from Cornell and joined forces to create this paper. Only one of them is still involved with it. One of the women went on to be a writer of pieces for textbooks, but was killed in a tragic accident with her family about 8 years ago. The Westword is ad heavy, but free in dispensers all over town. They do really in-depth stories about local crime and news. Depending on the story, it can be pages long, giving the details we rarely get in mainstream news about all kinds of political or crime stories and the people involved.

There are a few links in this story on their page, to other stories they have done about this man in particular.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

weedygarden said:


> I have had a few opportunities where I probably could have had pain pills. I honestly do not remember ever having them. I have always used aspirin for pain, and only in the last decade or so have I gotten Canadian 222s. I only have 2 or 3 in the house now. They really were not noticeably different for pain.
> 
> When I was a senior in college I had all 4 wisdom removed one day. I was living in a house with 5 others. It was 3 days later and we had a party. A man told me he was in such pain because he had his wisdom teeth removed 3 weeks ago. I told him I had had mine removed 3 days ago, and the relief was amazing. He looked at me like I was lying. I was not. My wisdom teeth were sideways and pushing forward with such pressure, it truly was a relief. No pain meds for me that I remember.
> 
> I have gotten migraines since I was 13 or 14. They can be debilitating. The best relief for me has been using 3 or 4 aspirin/acetaminophen/caffeine combination pills.


I had my wisdom teeth out at 16. All four and they were also impacted like yours. They gave me 800mg of Tylenol.

I spent the week eating ice cream and malts. That was all I needed to numb the pain.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*% year old*



Grimm said:


> My first and last prescription was for hydroncodone after my c-section with Roo. I still have 90% of it almost 5 years later. Like you I have only used a pill here or there to ease a pulled back or very bad body pain. Never felt high.
> 
> K got a prescription for Oxy right after the car accident that totaled the Saturn. He took 2 pills out of the bottle the first few days and stopped. He didn't like the way they made him feel. I still have these pills as well tucked away for emergencies and I know how many are in the bottle.
> 
> I never got getting high from pain pills.


If they are five years old they likely have about 80% of their original strength


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

BillM said:


> If they are five years old they likely have about 80% of their original strength


I think that is worth knowing. Personally, I would still keep them, because 80% is better than nothing.


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## prepperking22 (May 21, 2016)

It's sad that most of these addicts start with a necessary prescription. Can definitely get out of control fast. Agreed that you ALWAYS need to keep sensitive materials locked up no matter what they are.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

I have always had a cavalier attitude about my well being. As a result of that I have many many scars on my body and several bones with the tell-tale bump where they were broken. When ever I went to see a doctor they never had to ask me what was wrong, they always just got out the needle and thread to sew me back up. I still have have the same attitude now that I am older only more so. I feel I have led a great life. Many of the old injuries that I had are now coming back to haunt me. Through all the years I have always used aspirin when a pain med was called for but that was seldom. My wife often asked why i would take no pain meds and even aspirin. My answer was that I wanted to save them for a time when I might really need them. I have learned to have a high tolerance for pain (or maybe I just ruined many of my pain receptors?). Pain does not scare me but pain killers do.


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

hiwall said:


> I have always had a cavalier attitude about my well being. As a result of that I have many many scars on my body and several bones with the tell-tale bump where they were broken. When ever I went to see a doctor they never had to ask me what was wrong, they always just got out the needle and thread to sew me back up. I still have have the same attitude now that I am older only more so. I feel I have led a great life. Many of the old injuries that I had are now coming back to haunt me. Through all the years I have always used aspirin when a pain med was called for but that was seldom. My wife often asked why i would take no pain meds and even aspirin. My answer was that I wanted to save them for a time when I might really need them. I have learned to have a high tolerance for pain (or maybe I just ruined many of my pain receptors?). Pain does not scare me but pain killers do.


That must be a requirement for wanting to live in Az. 3 yrs. high school football (150 pound middle linebacker), then 10 yrs. martial arts competition (many dislocations and injured bones), then into the construction field (another knee surgery). Pain medication is nice but must not be relied upon. Broken bones and torn ligament are just a part of a very active life and I have enjoyed every minute. Old age does talk a little meaner to me now but it is better to suck it up and get on with living life. JMHO.


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## DrPrepper (Apr 17, 2016)

tsrwivey said:


> I love it & I wouldn't do well working with whiny adults. :laugh:


No, I don't do well with whiny adults, either. My love has always been geriatrics- especially Alzheimer's patients. When you've spent a long day with them, and you're ready to go and they kiss you on the cheek and call you by the wrong name, but tell you they love you......makes it all worthwhile! Of course, now my love now is germs- but I won't be letting any of them be kissing me on the cheek, that's for sure!!!


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

DrDianaAnderson said:


> No, I don't do well with whiny adults, either. My love has always been geriatrics- especially Alzheimer's patients. When you've spent a long day with them, and you're ready to go and they kiss you on the cheek and call you by the wrong name, but tell you they love you......makes it all worthwhile! Of course, now my love now is germs- but I won't be letting any of them be kissing me on the cheek, that's for sure!!!


In today's social circles you would be labeled a Germophobe, you bigot! Spreading bad rumors about all those hard working germs. They are just trying to live their lives as best they can. Shame on you. :rofl:


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

I was at a graduation/pre-med school party last evening for a young woman I have known almost 30 years. One of the people at the party was another woman whom I have known since she was 5 years old, and is now a medical doctor. She has lived and worked in Laos, and is quite the world traveler.

Of course I had to bring up the subject of pain pills. Having seen some of the poorest of the poor, she talked about how so many people in the rest of the world just do not have access to pain medication. 

Here is a question: has anyone ever died from pain? I know people have died from injuries and diseases, and pain can cause people to faint, or pass out. But death from pain? I wonder if it has ever happened?


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

weedygarden said:


> I was at a graduation/pre-med school party last evening for a young woman I have known almost 30 years. One of the people at the party was another woman whom I have known since she was 5 years old, and is now a medical doctor. She has lived and worked in Laos, and is quite the world traveler.
> 
> Of course I had to bring up the subject of pain pills. Having seen some of the poorest of the poor, she talked about how so many people in the rest of the world just do not have access to pain medication.
> 
> Here is a question: has anyone ever died from pain? I know people have died from injuries and diseases, and pain can cause people to faint, or pass out. But death from pain? I wonder if it has ever happened?


I was under sever pain from a kidney stone and when I was admitted to the hospital for surgery they said they couldn't operate on me because my BP was 220/170. They gave me an intravenous pain killer and my BP dropped almost immediately. The doctor told me that at any time, I could have had a heart attack with the BP I had.

So, maybe you can't die from pain, but how does the pain affect other areas of the body?


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## tortminder (Oct 15, 2008)

*A different perspective*

I come at this from a different, (and in many cases an unpopular) direction.
We have established how well government works at failing to deter unwelcome behaviors while adding onerous burdens to those who have a propensity to follow rules.

Laws are made by legislators and enforced by the executive branch. Legislators and political executive people are politicians. Politicians are interested in maintaining their own power.

We have established that prohibition doesn't work. We have established that "rescuing and rehabbing" of druggies doesn't work. We have established that incarceration doesn't work.

With a nod to my Libertarian friends, what say we let people make their own decisions regarding, (in this case), what chemicals they put into their bodies to chemically alter their state of consciousness. Make the chemical substances used generally available and reasonably priced, (that would remove the profit motive for drug dealers). Their body, their choice. The other side of that coin, however; is that they are also responsible to the consequences of those choices individually. That means no efforts of others to rescue them from overdoses; no public funds for rehabilitation; no welfare money or EBT cards to feed, house or clothe them.

Will some die from drug intoxication? Absolutely! Will some die of exposure to the elements or from starvation? You betcha! Stupid should hurt. Extreme stupid should hurt extremely.


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## DrPrepper (Apr 17, 2016)

tortminder said:


> With a nod to my Libertarian friends, what say we let people make their own decisions regarding, (in this case), what chemicals they put into their bodies to chemically alter their state of consciousness. Make the chemical substances used generally available and reasonably priced, (that would remove the profit motive for drug dealers). Their body, their choice. The other side of that coin, however; is that they are also responsible to the consequences of those choices individually. That means no efforts of others to rescue them from overdoses; no public funds for rehabilitation; no welfare money or EBT cards to feed, house or clothe them.
> 
> Will some die from drug intoxication? Absolutely! Will some die of exposure to the elements or from starvation? You betcha! Stupid should hurt. Extreme stupid should hurt extremely.


Tortminder, I agree with you with one caveat- we would have to change a lot of laws for that to be successful, and I am not just talking about drug laws. For one thing, EMTALA (Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act) says we have to provide medical screening to anyone who shows up in our emergency department and treatment if their case is life threatening. So...... the many ODs, bad trips, and meth-related issues we see would all fall into this category- and of course, there are the folks who are not even responsible enough to apply for Medicaid, and so we wind up providing free care. Then, we also need tort reform because even if EMTALA was changed, we would still have druggies or their families suing us for not saving them or keeping them from brain damage, etc...... Also, we would need to change child protective rules so that parents who wanted to do drugs could not keep kids they couldn't care for. I have a few horror stories about the kids who were injured or worse by parents who were under the influence.

Can we just maybe send all the druggies to one area, build a big fence around the place and allow natural selection to occur???????


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## tortminder (Oct 15, 2008)

DrDianaAnderson said:


> Tortminder, I agree with you with one caveat- we would have to change a lot of laws for that to be successful, and I am not just talking about drug laws. For one thing, EMTALA (Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act) says we have to provide medical screening to anyone who shows up in our emergency department and treatment if their case is life threatening. So...... the many ODs, bad trips, and meth-related issues we see would all fall into this category- and of course, there are the folks who are not even responsible enough to apply for Medicaid, and so we wind up providing free care. Then, we also need tort reform because even if EMTALA was changed, we would still have druggies or their families suing us for not saving them or keeping them from brain damage, etc...... Also, we would need to change child protective rules so that parents who wanted to do drugs could not keep kids they couldn't care for. I have a few horror stories about the kids who were injured or worse by parents who were under the influence.
> 
> Can we just maybe send all the druggies to one area, build a big fence around the place and allow natural selection to occur???????


I'm sure that the details could be worked out so that the unintended consequences could be held to a minimum if not eliminated entirely. It is a matter of people taking responsibility for their own actions. The late Paul Harvey used to say that self-government without self-discipline won't work.

The sad truth is, however, that there aren't enough politicians with the guts and the ethics to see that this was implemented,


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## rt66paul (Apr 15, 2016)

weedygarden said:


> I was at a graduation/pre-med school party last evening for a young woman I have known almost 30 years. One of the people at the party was another woman whom I have known since she was 5 years old, and is now a medical doctor. She has lived and worked in Laos, and is quite the world traveler.
> 
> Of course I had to bring up the subject of pain pills. Having seen some of the poorest of the poor, she talked about how so many people in the rest of the world just do not have access to pain medication.
> 
> Here is a question: has anyone ever died from pain? I know people have died from injuries and diseases, and pain can cause people to faint, or pass out. But death from pain? I wonder if it has ever happened?


Maybe not died from pain, but chronic pain that is not dealt with can make a person suicidal. In most of the third world herion or just the extract from the poppy is available almost everywhere and it is very cheap.
Obama care is just an excuse to control doctors. There is no goverment or zero tolerance policy that is better than doctors. Taking away pain medicine form the people that need it will only increase illegal profits on street drugs or will cause undue suffering. There are many worse things than having grandma dependant on prescription drugs.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

weedygarden said:


> I was at a graduation/pre-med school party last evening for a young woman I have known almost 30 years. One of the people at the party was another woman whom I have known since she was 5 years old, and is now a medical doctor. She has lived and worked in Laos, and is quite the world traveler.
> 
> Of course I had to bring up the subject of pain pills. Having seen some of the poorest of the poor, she talked about how so many people in the rest of the world just do not have access to pain medication.
> 
> Here is a question: has anyone ever died from pain? I know people have died from injuries and diseases, and pain can cause people to faint, or pass out. But death from pain? I wonder if it has ever happened?


Pain will raise your blood pressure which can cause you to have a stroke or heart attack. Long term high BP can cause other problems. Pain can be a complicating factor in shock which can kill. A number of people have committed suicide from chronic pain. Did Pain kill all these people? It depends on how you choose to define it. My answer is yes.


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## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

If there are people around that you can't trust then they don't come around. Even more so in a SHTF scenario.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

mojo4 said:


> If there are people around that you can't trust then they don't come around. Even more so in a SHTF scenario.


I trust very, very few people.


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