# I live in a metropolitan area of 4,000,000 people



## tpawebdesign

If the SHTF, for whatever reason, isn't it a reasonable assumption that I will be stuck on the road with 3,999,999 other people trying to get out of the city? That cannot be a very safe situation.

Should I just plan/prepare to stay in place? I cannot find much information about that - everyone says leave big cities but I'm afraid that is going to be almost impossible. So how do I prepare?


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## Moby76065

When you're in a heavily populated area you might consider "what" triggers will cause you to bug out. If I lived in a situation like you do I would be likely to bug out rapidly before most thought about it knowing I might bug out when not needed.
I would have supplies at my home and my BOL. Your first stage BOL might be a friends home outside the area of heavy population. With the option of getting farther away should the situation worsen. Bugging in in my opinion would not be wise but is dependent on your situation and not knowing more details I can't be more specific. Take your family if there is one into consideration and the fact you may all be exiting from different areas.


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## Woody

If we didn't already.. Welcome to the forums!

As stated, if you have a chance to get out of Dodge before anyone knows what is up, do it! That is *IF* you have a BOL to go to. If not ,waiting it out in place is your only option. Getting stuck on the highway with the other 3,999,999 is going to spell death. After the stores are looted for big screen TV's and designer sneakers, the folks stranded in the open are the next predator target. You can assume the panicking hoards have already looted all the groceries, no reason to venture outside if possible.

An apartment building will only have a few entrances, Front, back, service and roof. Gather anyone left and prepare to stand your ground. You will be forced to band together with those in the building. If you live in a condo or something not in the most urban area, make your place look unattractive. Scatter clothes, furniture and random crap from the front door into the yard. It will look already looted and much less likely to draw attention even if the door is locked. 

If it just waiting out something like this storm? Hunker down. You only have to keep you and/or yours happy for a few days, week... 10 days tops. In my rural location, I am more than willing to share all but my LTS supplies for a storm situation, done it before.


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## bigg777

I'd recommend at least moving out of the urban center and into the suburbs. If you don't have vehicular transport already, how are you planning to leave that hell hole anyway?

A move out of center city will give you a chance to vamoose ahead of the swarm of sheeple. The inconvenience of the commute should be offset by the piece of mind of being out of the armpit of the city.


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## Viking

Just thinking about this makes me very glad that we no longer live in a large city, I've lived in Seattle and Denver and just thinking of what the freeway and bridge traffic would be sends shivers down my spine. It's bad enough that we live just four miles from a little town of 1,500 or so people since I know some of them that more than likely, WILL cause problems to good people when things begin to go bad. I fully believe that big cities will be a nightmare, Woody's suggestion may help some. Warning time before SHTF happens may be too short to get you out of an area that heavily populated. Sad to say it but most people are already living in a survival mode, living pay check to pay check, striving just to keep a roof over their heads and have a vehicle to get them back and forth to work, not much extra cash for things like a BOL, BOV, food and water storage, let alone a defensible bug in location. Sounds like you are stuck in the metro area because of your job, if I were you I would prep for walking away from your job, hopefully you have a vehicle large enough to put what you need in for short term until you could get somewhere safer, perhaps a relative in a rural area. I certainly wish you the best, you are on a good site here for survival info with a lot of good people with helpful knowledge.


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## TheLazyL

I agree. It wouldn't be a good idea to try and leave the city along with 4 million of others trying to do the same.

If a person could safely hold out in the city for a few weeks or a month, until the hordes are dispersed.

Lots of water in a high rise building. Turn off the main water valve in the basement so the water doesn't drain down and out of the building. Then remove the lever or wheel of the main water valve.

Secure all the entrances to your building including fire escapes. 

Secure all the elevator and stairway entrances to each floor.

Go thru all the abandoned apartments gathering potting soil and cataloging resources. 

Use the potting soil gathered for a garden on the roof. Try to shield it so someone on a higher roof line can't see your garden.

Make your retreat on the top floor in the room with the least about of outside wall exposure (retain heat better).

If possible run a zip line(s) to adjunct building(s). Zip Lines will be your emergency escape route if the lower floors become comprised. Store sufficient supplies in each of the adjunct buildings to enable you to escape the city.

Don't leave your building unless absolutely necessary. OPSEC breach if you are spied coming and going.

About 2 weeks after you have observed the last person then plan to leave the city. This will be the hardest part.

Get your hidden mountain bicycle, load up your carry load and leave. I'd suggest about 2 AM and no moon. Rain would be good, keep the bad guys inside and help mask any noise you may make. 

If there is snow on the ground you will leave easy to trail tracks.

Bridges and overpasses are choke points, avoid them.

Can you get out of the city by 5 AM? If you can't then you need to quickly find a dry secured area to speed the day. Set your perimeter alarms and you will be running a cold camp. 

You preplanned several exit routes that would enable you to leave the city with minimal risk. Idealistically you would have a rental storage unit at each of these points of exit. 

Rental storage units would allow you to replace the bicycle with a faster mode of travel (moped or motorcycle), increased carry load and a larger range of supplies. Or worst case scenario a source of supplies if you had to leave the high rise building empty handed.


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## Tirediron

If the other people left there is no need to leave, build a bigger garden and set up a trap line in ravens and river valleys.


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## NaeKid

tpawebdesign said:


> If the SHTF, for whatever reason, isn't it a reasonable assumption that I will be stuck on the road with 3,999,999 other people trying to get out of the city? That cannot be a very safe situation.
> 
> Should I just plan/prepare to stay in place? I cannot find much information about that - everyone says leave big cities but I'm afraid that is going to be almost impossible. So how do I prepare?


Which city? Depending on the city in question, there might be other ways to leave the area safely. I'll look at some maps (including underground) of your city to see if I can create something for ya.


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## Grimm

I think we need to all remember that the OP lives in a travel trailer.


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## Tirediron

retaining that much information would overload my harddrive


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## camo2460

I break out in a sweat sitting in a restaurant with 20 people, I'd be mad as a shaved cat in a city of 4 mil. I'd get away from there as soon as possible.


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## Tirediron

@ Camo, I am really glad that I wasn't drinking anything when I read that, but I do have to agree , that is about how I feel too, Are shaved cats madder than scalded ones??


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## camo2460

Tirediron said:


> @ Camo, I am really glad that I wasn't drinking anything when I read that, but I do have to agree , that is about how I feel too, Are shaved cats madder than scalded ones??


LMAO, I Don't know "T" I guess it depends on whether the cat is shaved with a straight razor or "Nair".


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## sgtusmc98

It is nice living in your primary BOL!


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## gnome

Bugging out is a fantasy, it is a nice way to escape reality, however you most likely will not have the ability to bug out In a real situation. Your best case is prepare to take care of yourself and family for 90 days. Then maybe work on more if you can after that.


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## Cotton

tpawebdesign said:


> If the SHTF, for whatever reason, isn't it a reasonable assumption that I will be stuck on the road with 3,999,999 other people trying to get out of the city? That cannot be a very safe situation.
> 
> Should I just plan/prepare to stay in place? I cannot find much information about that - everyone says leave big cities but I'm afraid that is going to be almost impossible. So how do I prepare?


History is replete with such stories. If you can't leave you only have 2 options&#8230; be a ghost or organize an army. History is also replete with stories of how to do both. What ever you do be aware of another ancient adage&#8230; the plan goes out the window when the first bullet (or arrow) flies&#8230;

Your local library contains or can get, on request, dozens of books that will help you. Start with Sun Tzu's book the "Art of War" and "Caesar's Commentaries on the Gallic War & On the Civil War". If you can't raise an army these books describe in painful detail what you will be facing.

My advice... get out before it's obvious you can't even if you have no destination. If you can't get out be a ghost, put casper to shame.


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## oldasrocks

What he said above. Pay attention and get out while the sheeple are still watching reality shows. When that days is? That's everyone's question. A few practice runs just give you good information for the real thing.

You need a location to go to though. Being stuck out in the open will be worse that SIPing.


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## sgtusmc98

gnome said:


> Bugging out is a fantasy, it is a nice way to escape reality, however you most likely will not have the ability to bug out In a real situation. Your best case is prepare to take care of yourself and family for 90 days. Then maybe work on more if you can after that.


Generally I agree bugging out is a fantasy, the idea of building a great BOV and all is really fun, running to the hills is exciting but in reality it's not sustainable for most people, as a backpacker 3 days is close to the time limit without re supply. I spent weeks living out of a backpack but helicopter dropped supplies made that possible.
When it comes to bugging out it is important to answer why. If you live in areas prone to flooding like we saw with Katrina, yes there needs to be a short term escape plan whether it's going to relatives or a hotel. If it's hotels you should have a list of them in your phone that meet your needs like excepting pets, trailers etc. Having a "bob" with toiletries, close and snacks is a great idea not so much for running to the hills but to a hotel or a hospital at a moments notice if something happens to you or some one else. I do recognize some people have to live in places that are less than perfect but recognizing or at least guessing what the problem is that we will be facing is helps. Natural disasters are probably the most likely wide spread events and often somewhat predictable. If it's government take over by troops we are all in trouble, not many of us can take on platoons, Apaches, or Abrams.
Only so much food can be carried compared to what can be stored at home and most problems will pass in less than 90 days.

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## sgtusmc98

I also believe that generally speaking being out of debt and having emergency money is probably the single best prep you could have and one I don't have unfortunately, I could live for two or three months without any more food or electricity but struggling with debt is a huge challenge.


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## readytogo

*Panic is your worst enemy*

So you have 4 mil neighbors, good for you, it just means that you have to be better prepared and don`t brag about it, my county alone has 2.5 mil and during Andrew in 92 all hell broke lose,traffic,food,power,water and I just sat in my front porch enjoying a cup of Joe while baking biscuits. I can see leaving my area if told by the government of a major coming event or looming assault by evil forces from another world but worrying about nothing just raises my blood pressure, an unknown event even in a small unpopulated area will still cause panic but drastic mother nature events in the past few years have shown communities coming together to help each other with your average animals lootings here and there, my point or logic is to stay put till told to evacuated and keep a level of readiness and supplies based on your finances. I know of many who evacuated on their own and came home to a totally burglarize house, panic is your worst enemy.


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## Grimm

My husband and I (plus our daughter and pets) lived in a very large city very close to the beach. The summers would bring in several million more people who were vacationing, traveling or just escaping the inland heat by going to the beach. This city was only a handful of miles from Los Angeles where my husband works. When we realized living in this giant sardine can was going to be the death of us if SHTF we moved to a hamlet with only 700 people and not all were year round residents. 

Yes, my husband's commute is longer but the rent is cheaper for more space, the air is cleaner, it is a farming area so everyone does for them selves and we are that much farther from the city hordes.


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## LincTex

sgtusmc98 said:


> Generally I agree bugging out is a fantasy, the idea of building a great BOV and all is really fun,


Having "a place to go "isn't that hard to do. Even if it's a 8' x 12' storage building (or old travel trailer) set on a friend's land a few hours away is better than nothing.

BOV's should be functional, and "not look like a BOV". 
It's amazing what you can do with a stock Bronco or 4-Runner.


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## gnome

sgtusmc98 said:


> I also believe that generally speaking being out of debt and having emergency money is probably the single best prep you could have and one I don't have unfortunately, I could live for two or three months without any more food or electricity but struggling with debt is a huge challenge.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


that is why I am against spending all of your money on this kick ass bugout bag that you will never use. I understand the fantasy of it just not the need of it. If someone really wants to prep buy the foods that they like to eat that will store well. Then figure out ways to make it a month without going to the store. After that figure out what you need to be comfortable when you loose power. Then maybe if you have the time join the volunteer fire department and train to be an EMT(in most areas a volunteer fd member can do it for free)

If you are smart about it a prepper will save money not spend it.

This is coming from a guy that has his house paid off all of his cars paid off that started with little to nothing. And no I am not living in a mansion and I am not rich. I own my own business that I have to work at.


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## gnome

LincTex said:


> Having "a place to go "isn't that hard to do. Even if it's a 8' x 12' storage building (or old travel trailer) set on a friend's land a few hours away is better than nothing.
> 
> BOV's should be functional, and "not look like a BOV".
> It's amazing what you can do with a stock Bronco or 4-Runner.


A bug out location just for bugging out is a waste of money, do you honestly think anyone would care if that was your property if you really needed it. If it was really needed your friend of a stranger would take your crap. If you enjoy hunting or camping with your family buy a nice location for that. But buying a location for bugging out that you will not use for anything else is for the loonies.


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## gnome

Grimm said:


> My husband and I (plus our daughter and pets) lived in a very large city very close to the beach. The summers would bring in several million more people who were vacationing, traveling or just escaping the inland heat by going to the beach. This city was only a handful of miles from Los Angeles where my husband works. When we realized living in this giant sardine can was going to be the death of us if SHTF we moved to a hamlet with only 700 people and not all were year round residents.
> 
> Yes, my husband's commute is longer but the rent is cheaper for more space, the air is cleaner, it is a farming area so everyone does for them selves and we are that much farther from the city hordes.


I can understand where you are coming from, I live in a county that has between 4 and 6 thousand residents. However I have lived in Chicago before, and my wife is from Virginia Beach, we are both happier living where we take care of ourselves and do not need to depend on others. The other nice thing about living in the country is you can count on others to help when needed.


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## sgtusmc98

LincTex said:


> Having "a place to go "isn't that hard to do. Even if it's a 8' x 12' storage building (or old travel trailer) set on a friend's land a few hours away is better than nothing.
> 
> BOV's should be functional, and "not look like a BOV".
> 
> It's amazing what you can do with a stock Bronco or 4-Runner.


I believe you should have a place to go, I'm not planning on leaving but what if the house burns to the ground or a tornado hits it?
1st stay a few nights at my church

2nd stay where my wife works, it has an apartment up stairs

3rd probably my parents

4th hopefully I could have some shelter at the homestead again

I do believe having a capable vehicle is good too but some can get crazy.

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## sgtusmc98

All that to say I know this thread started out from someone who lived in the city and not on rural land so I may have been getting off topic. If my house without land was in the city #4 wouldn't be there.


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## Marcus

In a large city, I'd look at the sewers and rain water drains. The idea is to get to a place most people will overlook or be unwilling to go in.
One of these makes a damn good shelter as long as there's no rain. It might be worth it to find a key to the manholes in your local city.


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## weedygarden

Marcus said:


> In a large city, I'd look at the sewers and rain water drains. The idea is to get to a place most people will overlook or be unwilling to go in.
> One of these makes a damn good shelter as long as there's no rain. It might be worth it to find a key to the manholes in your local city.


I am curious about this, because I have thought about this. I wonder how far storm cellars go and if you could travel on foot underground for a ways if you knew how and where you were going.

I have also been thinking this because I know of someone I think lives underground in one, or has excavated to use it to get to his underground abode. It is someone I am staying away from, so I won't be asking him. He is a man who is homeless off and on and who has done some work digging out tree stumps on my property.


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## Viking

Marcus said:


> In a large city, I'd look at the sewers and rain water drains. The idea is to get to a place most people will overlook or be unwilling to go in.
> One of these makes a damn good shelter as long as there's no rain. It might be worth it to find a key to the manholes in your local city.


It can be a good idea, however, my guess is that homeless, those staying out of site of the law and mental cases probably already inhabit the places that are livable.


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## Tirediron

Most large older buildings have a lot of infrastructure under ground, especially places that have several buildings on a lot like a college or tech school. there are often tunnels that inter connect the building and house the utility conduits.


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## cnsper

tpawebdesign said:


> If the SHTF, for whatever reason, isn't it a reasonable assumption that I will be stuck on the road with 3,999,999 other people trying to get out of the city? That cannot be a very safe situation.
> 
> Should I just plan/prepare to stay in place? I cannot find much information about that - everyone says leave big cities but I'm afraid that is going to be almost impossible. So how do I prepare?


You would probably be fighting 100,000 trying to leave, 1,000,000 trying to get to the looting and 2,900,000 waiting for the Government to "SAVE" them.


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## Cotton

gnome said:


> A bug out location just for bugging out is a waste of money, do you honestly think anyone would care if that was your property if you really needed it. If it was really needed your friend of a stranger would take your crap. If you enjoy hunting or camping with your family buy a nice location for that. But buying a location for bugging out that you will not use for anything else is for the loonies.


Strong statement and a direct insult to boot! If you think a bol isn't a wise choice just say so.

I disagree with you assertion. What's the old adage&#8230; don't put all your eggs in one basket? This seems to be your approach, are you sure you're little suburban neighborhood or quaint old city block can be defended?

It's better to have backup plans within backup plans. Multiple locations with gear cached at each. In chaos you're going to be forced to relocate, if only temporarily, and your supplies taken. If you doubt me&#8230; just take a short walk through history.

I live at my bol, my farm in a very rural area. I fully expect to be force off it, my cattle and supplies taken (at least some of them ).

"A bol I will never use?" That's saying a lot! Did you break out the "Ouija board" to discern that?

Also, you don't have to invest a lot of money either. One can lease the hunting right to 100's, even 1000's of acres of timber company lands. Their only stipulation&#8230; no permanent structures or electricity. Not a problem in a grid down situation and certainly "no property" for someone else to occupy. However, a great location to cache supplies and where a base camp and shelter can quickly be established. If careful you can even pick the terrain!


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## Marcus

weedygarden said:


> I am curious about this, because I have thought about this. I wonder how far storm cellars go and if you could travel on foot underground for a ways if you knew how and where you were going.


I was actually thinking of using these as a place to layover during the journey to get out of the city. It's almost like a bunker and holing up in one gives a person quite a bit of protection.

From my experience when I was a kid, storm drains empty into the nearest stream pretty quickly. So I don't know if they'd be suitable for traveling very far.

As Tirediron mentioned, there are steam tunnels that interconnect buildings too.


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## gnome

Cotton said:


> Strong statement and a direct insult to boot! If you think a bol isn't a wise choice just say so.
> 
> I disagree with you assertion. What's the old adage&#8230; don't put all your eggs in one basket? This seems to be your approach, are you sure you're little suburban neighborhood or quaint old city block can be defended?
> 
> It's better to have backup plans within backup plans. Multiple locations with gear cached at each. In chaos you're going to be forced to relocate, if only temporarily, and your supplies taken. If you doubt me&#8230; just take a short walk through history.
> 
> I live at my bol, my farm in a very rural area. I fully expect to be force off it, my cattle and supplies taken (at least some of them ).
> 
> "A bol I will never use?" That's saying a lot! Did you break out the "Ouija board" to discern that?
> 
> Also, you don't have to invest a lot of money either. One can lease the hunting right to 100's, even 1000's of acres of timber company lands. Their only stipulation&#8230; no permanent structures or electricity. Not a problem in a grid down situation and certainly "no property" for someone else to occupy. However, a great location to cache supplies and where a base camp and shelter can quickly be established. If careful you can even pick the terrain!


Think about this, we have an event that is an "end of the world" event. Do you honestly think anyone is going to be looking for who owns the place before they move in? 300 miles is going to take weeks with everyone freaked out. If you have food stored where you can easily find it it will be gone if it is hard to find you will not be able to find it yourself. If you want to live away from major cities for your sanity or because you are worried about them crashing fine do it, I respect that. But to think that you can get 300 miles with your family and the bug out bunker you have will not be occupied is the definition of lunacy.

The other point I have is I hate the idea of people burying guns for cashes. Come on if you are drove off your property do you really think you are going back to dig up more guns and take it back. First off you will be likely dead, second off if you are not dead you will not want to go back. All you are doing is giving left wing nutjobs the ammunition to ban guns saying you are not keeping the secure.

I am honest enough to admit I will not survive and end of the world event. I would try to stop and help anyone I could until someone killed me. I also say I will be better off being killed at that point because to do otherwise is not living. If you want your neighbors to be prepared sell it to them as getting prepared in case of a earthquake, snow storm, car wreck, fire, tornado, flood, hurricane, or helping someone that has just gone threw those. Start prepping for things that happen every day. Then if your end of the world event happens you will not see it affect people as bad.


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## Tirediron

gnome said:


> Think about this, we have an event that is an "end of the world" event. Do you honestly think anyone is going to be looking for who owns the place before they move in? 300 miles is going to take weeks with everyone freaked out. If you have food stored where you can easily find it it will be gone if it is hard to find you will not be able to find it yourself. If you want to live away from major cities for your sanity or because you are worried about them crashing fine do it, I respect that. But to think that you can get 300 miles with your family and the bug out bunker you have will not be occupied is the definition of lunacy.
> 
> The other point I have is I hate the idea of people burying guns for cashes. Come on if you are drove off your property do you really think you are going back to dig up more guns and take it back. First off you will be likely dead, second off if you are not dead you will not want to go back. All you are doing is giving left wing nutjobs the ammunition to ban guns saying you are not keeping the secure.
> 
> I am honest enough to admit I will not survive and end of the world event. I would try to stop and help anyone I could until someone killed me. I also say I will be better off being killed at that point because to do otherwise is not living. If you want your neighbors to be prepared sell it to them as getting prepared in case of a earthquake, snow storm, car wreck, fire, tornado, flood, hurricane, or helping someone that has just gone threw those. Start prepping for things that happen every day. Then if your end of the world event happens you will not see it affect people as bad.


Wow we have an all knowing Guru, I guess all the effort the Admins, Mods and Members have done over the years is for nothing, a gnome shows up and tells us the rules for the future............... Who knew????????????? vract:


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## BillS

Grimm said:


> I think we need to all remember that the OP lives in a travel trailer.


His chances of survival in a city of 4 million are about 0 after it hits the fan. Not only does he live in a travel trailer but he can't have much in the way of stored food, water, or fuel.


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## Grimm

BillS said:


> His chances of survival in a city of 4 million are about 0 after it hits the fan. Not only does he live in a travel trailer but he can't have much in the way of stored food, water, or fuel.


Yes, I agree. I wanted to remind everyone of the OP's situation so they could factor that in their replies. Most commented as if the OP lived in a high rise.


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## TheLazyL

Grimm said:


> I think we need to all remember that the OP lives in a travel trailer.


OP does? Ah! Intel gleamed from a separate post. :surrender:


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## gnome

Tirediron said:


> Wow we have an all knowing Guru, I guess all the effort the Admins, Mods and Members have done over the years is for nothing, a gnome shows up and tells us the rules for the future............... Who knew????????????? vract:


I do not know what is going to happen I just feel that shows like doomsday preppers have encouraged posts telling people to buy a bug out location and all will be well. I also live in an area where you have a lot of people buy locations to bug out too. Some even joke that if they ever needed to bug out they would just move into a bunker someone else built... I also feel that a more appropriate use of ones money at first is making sure they can make it threw a snowstorm before they start to dealing with bug out locations. Most people I know make fun of preppers until I talk to them about power outages or tornado. Things that happen often around here that they can prepare for.

We would all be better off if everyone was a prepper. I just think more people would prepare if you gave them events that happen every day to prepare for, not something that they have never seen, or that they can not see happening where they live.

I should not have called the guys that have bug out locations lunitics I was wrong, but I still do not think that should be advice for people starting out.


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## Grimm

gnome said:


> I do not know what is going to happen I just feel that shows like doomsday preppers have encouraged posts telling people to buy a bug out location and all will be well. I also live in an area where you have a lot of people buy locations to bug out too. Some even joke that if they ever needed to bug out they would just move into a bunker someone else built... I also feel that a more appropriate use of ones money at first is making sure they can make it threw a snowstorm before they start to dealing with bug out locations. Most people I know make fun of preppers until I talk to them about power outages or tornado. Things that happen often around here that they can prepare for.
> 
> We would all be better off if everyone was a prepper. I just think more people would prepare if you gave them events that happen every day to prepare for, not something that they have never seen, or that they can not see happening where they live.
> 
> I should not have called the guys that have bug out locations lunitics I was wrong, but I still do not thing that should be advice for people starting out.


Since the OP never gave any specifics as to their prepping experience of knowledge we had to make judgement calls.

Based on the info given by the OP in another thread their best bet is to bug out. They live in a travel trailer with no real storage or space to bug in. Given their situation they will die in a SHTF event if they stay put.


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## Viking

gnome said:


> that is why I am against spending all of your money on this kick ass bugout bag that you will never use. I understand the fantasy of it just not the need of it. If someone really wants to prep buy the foods that they like to eat that will store well. Then figure out ways to make it a month without going to the store. After that figure out what you need to be comfortable when you loose power. Then maybe if you have the time join the volunteer fire department and train to be an EMT(in most areas a volunteer fd member can do it for free)
> 
> If you are smart about it a prepper will save money not spend it.
> 
> This is coming from a guy that has his house paid off all of his cars paid off that started with little to nothing. And no I am not living in a mansion and I am not rich. I own my own business that I have to work at.


We never leave home without having a very small bugout bag, extra water and blankets in our vehicle. Thing is you never know how important it is until you get stuck somewhere in the middle of nowhere, like a few years back when a family from San Fransisco decided to take a shortcut from I-5 to the coast highway via info on GPS, got stuck in snow, dad died walking for help (didn't follow the road he came in on), I'd say they would have been happy to have had a KA bugout bag, would have been happier if they hadn't believed what a GPS told them. I really feel for the family and I'm trying to be nice, but anyone who puts their trust in a GPS that leads them to hell, I wonder if they should even be driving. Just my thinking, I use good old maps and I read the signs that warn of winter travel on roads like that and to boot, at the first sign of snow, unless I was well prepared, I would have turned around, they got stuck right off the bat. Sorry, got carried away, but prepping is about surviving anything that may be thrown at you, so why wouldn't I want a good KA bugout bag? Could just save our butts, even a small bag with food is better than nothing.


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## Gravlore

Just sit back and watch the chaos. I doubt anyone knows what to do if it is not on an app. The stupid will "take care" of each other without you needing to worry about it. For the remaining .000000001% you need a plan.


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## LincTex

Knowing "when to leave" (not too soon, not too late) will be more important info than knowing where you will end up. 

Try to stay with family or close friends. 

Don't show up at their place hungry and empty-handed.


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## Tirediron

gnome said:


> I do not know what is going to happen I just feel that shows like doomsday preppers have encouraged posts telling people to buy a bug out location and all will be well. I also live in an area where you have a lot of people buy locations to bug out too. Some even joke that if they ever needed to bug out they would just move into a bunker someone else built... I also feel that a more appropriate use of ones money at first is making sure they can make it threw a snowstorm before they start to dealing with bug out locations. Most people I know make fun of preppers until I talk to them about power outages or tornado. Things that happen often around here that they can prepare for.
> 
> We would all be better off if everyone was a prepper. I just think more people would prepare if you gave them events that happen every day to prepare for, not something that they have never seen, or that they can not see happening where they live.
> 
> I should not have called the guys that have bug out locations lunitics I was wrong, but I still do not think that should be advice for people starting out.


I also think a distant unused bol is a after everything else acquisition, but a stash of simple supplies in a storage container or cache seems pretty valid for someone who might have to "abandon their luggage" if their home location ceased to be viable.

the step system has been mentioned lots of times on this board, and I don't think "run out and buy a BOL first thing has been mentioned.

:scratch


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## LincTex

Tirediron said:


> ...but a stash of simple supplies in a storage container or cache seems pretty valid for someone who might have to "abandon their luggage" if their home location ceased to be viable.


Heck yeah...

Even a couple ammo cans with some basic food, a wool blanket and new socks could be a life saver!

Just don't forget where you hid them.


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## bigg777

gnome - This one's for you Bud!

As with almost any group, you need to establish a reputation before trying to "school" everybody. I still consider myself a prep noob, there are people that have decades of experience doing this sort of thing. Whackjobs, yeah some are, but most of these people are adults with decades of life prep under their belts, the last thing they're going to take a shine to is some dude rolling in and calling them out.

You can chart your own course here, it's your right, but if you cool out and listen more than you speak, your life will be enhanced. It's your call, make it the right one.


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## DM1791

I think timing would be key. Even if there is some sudden and cataclysmic thing that happens (for instance, a wide-spread EMP attack) that most people will simply sit and wait for at least 2-3 days. They would expect someone to show up from the government to help them. Look at Katrina, and how many people just simply sat and waited until it was too late to move.

When a disaster hits, assuming you're not blocked by flooding or something, I think the key is to hit the road immediately and get as far away as you can. Gather all of the portable dry foods you have with long shelf life, some canned protein of some sort (tuna, soup, etc.), and get as much water as you can carry, then hit the road. The farther out of that population area you can get quickly, the better. Like I said, most people will just wait in their homes for at least the first 2-3 days and live off what they have at hand before they think about leaving in really large numbers.

The only exception I see to that principle are in either limited impact events such as localized storms, earth quakes, etc. In those situations, as long as you have supplies for 10-14 days (easy and affordable with a little forethought) and an effective means of defense, you should be good. And the other exception would be an attack on the scale of 9/11 or larger that shuts a city or portion of the nation down. In an attack situation, people would be much more likely to try and move as quickly as possible from fear if nothing else.

One key thing to remember.... If you are the only one you see packing and hitting the road, you are either the first one to catch wind of danger, and good for you.... or you've jumped the gun and everything is probably going to be fine. However, if you go outside to leave because something is either coming your way or something already happened and it's getting rough, and you see every car on your block with people rushing to pack and leave (think Independence Day when the space ships first show up) then you are probably already too late.

By the time everyone is thinking "LEAVE" at the same time you are, it's already too late. Time to stop packing the car, and start getting (buy, cheat, lie, steal, whatever) anything you get your hands on as far as food, water, and protection. In essence, forget the instincts of the herd, and act. That is often the most difficult part of a crisis situation, but it can be overcome with planning, diligence, and commitment. 

Hope this helps... 

Also, for perspective, I live just outside what is probably the largest city in North Carolina (Charlotte, NC), so I feel your discomfort and trepidation. We decided to live in the suburbs, on the less populated side of town within 5-10 minutes of side roads and state highways that can take us out of town and to our fall back location without ever touching interstates. 

And I've already told my wife that if the day ever comes when I say it's time to go, we get in the car and we leave. We can always come back if I'm wrong, but I'd rather look like an idiot then get stuck. For instance, when the first ebola patients was taken to Atlanta, I told her point blank that the first case of Ebola that originates in Charlotte, we hit the road. Period. No waiting to see if it gets bad. 

Welcome to the forums, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I have. This place is an absolutely amazing wealth of information and experience. Glad to have a newcomer on board.


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## Hooch

...maybe since the op lives in a travel trailer...move it to a nice town or very small community that is in more of a rural area if possible?? 
gnome..is moving possible? or sell it and move?? you can get online so research areas you'd like to be in and get out of anywhere near a city. 
Its a start..I know as far as where to store stuff is a issue but moving to a less populated area wont be as bad. Maybe you can find a trailer park located not far from a water source. Just that would increase your odds alot. Knowing how to fish, grow some veggies like a few nutrient dense ones. Maybe you can advertise to be a "caretaker" for someones property? Lots of people want caretakers on their remote ranches all over the US. Often it's just your presence that is wanted and needed with maybe a few small duties like a few animals to feed and water. If you already have a travel trailer to live in...boy you could hook yourself up well for a long term job that will get you out of the city..then you can expand your plan.


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## UncleJoe

Hooch said:


> ...maybe since the op lives in a travel trailer...move it to a nice town or very small community that is in more of a rural area if possible??


This thread made for a good discussion but I don't believe the OP lives in a trailer or in a metro area of 4 million. It was a hit and run post in hopes that folks here would visit his/her website.


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## Grimm

UncleJoe said:


> This thread made for a good discussion but I don't believe the OP lives in a trailer or in a metro area of 4 million. It was a hit and run post in hopes that folks here would visit his/her website.


I didn't see any type of link to a site in either post.


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## sgtusmc98

The name "tpawebdesign" is a company name in England. May have no relation but they have been quiet other than starting the post.


Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


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## Grimm

sgtusmc98 said:


> The name "tpawebdesign" is a company name in England. May have no relation but they have been quiet other than starting the post.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


In their other thread they posted 2 responses. One even saying they are located in Florida.


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## gnome

Viking said:


> We never leave home without having a very small bugout bag, extra water and blankets in our vehicle. Thing is you never know how important it is until you get stuck somewhere in the middle of nowhere, like a few years back when a family from San Fransisco decided to take a shortcut from I-5 to the coast highway via info on GPS, got stuck in snow, dad died walking for help (didn't follow the road he came in on), I'd say they would have been happy to have had a KA bugout bag, would have been happier if they hadn't believed what a GPS told them. I really feel for the family and I'm trying to be nice, but anyone who puts their trust in a GPS that leads them to hell, I wonder if they should even be driving. Just my thinking, I use good old maps and I read the signs that warn of winter travel on roads like that and to boot, at the first sign of snow, unless I was well prepared, I would have turned around, they got stuck right off the bat. Sorry, got carried away, but prepping is about surviving anything that may be thrown at you, so why wouldn't I want a good KA bugout bag? Could just save our butts, even a small bag with food is better than nothing.


I am not suggesting that you not be prepared, and leaving with supplies to keep you alive for a few days is a smart thing to do. What I hate is the idea when you go on forums is everything is about the BUG OUT. I feel the best advice is to start small and prepare for things that happen in your area every year. For example in my area we loose power often, while you would not need a generator you do need some way to prepare meals and keep your pipes from freezing.

I am also for storing at home first, a storage facility gets expensive all but the die hard people will give them up after a while. Plus you need to rotate your food so that it is not bad when you need it. Personally I want to be as comfortable as possible when things are not going right.


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## UncleJoe

Grimm said:


> In their other thread they posted 2 responses. One even saying they are located in Florida.


And their IP address says something completely different.

Either they are lying or they are bouncing their IP around to hide their actual location. Either way, they never intended to be a contributing member. More like a stealth spammer.


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## gnome

bigg777 said:


> gnome - This one's for you Bud!
> 
> As with almost any group, you need to establish a reputation before trying to "school" everybody. I still consider myself a prep noob, there are people that have decades of experience doing this sort of thing. Whackjobs, yeah some are, but most of these people are adults with decades of life prep under their belts, the last thing they're going to take a shine to is some dude rolling in and calling them out.
> 
> You can chart your own course here, it's your right, but if you cool out and listen more than you speak, your life will be enhanced. It's your call, make it the right one.


The amount of posts someone has has no bearing on how prepared they are, In fact how prepared I think I am has not reality as to how prepared I am depending on what happens. Personally I have only been threw floods, snowstorms, and tornado. Therefor my experience is limited. I am not here to school anyone just give my opinion and learn from others as I can. I do not expect to be liked on a prepper forum as my views are drastically different then most on here but maybe a different point of view can help some.


----------



## Grimm

gnome said:


> I am not suggesting that you not be prepared, and leaving with supplies to keep you alive for a few days is a smart thing to do. What I hate is the idea when you go on forums is everything is about the BUG OUT. I feel the best advice is to start small and prepare for things that happen in your area every year. For example in my area we loose power often, while you would not need a generator you do need some way to prepare meals and keep your pipes from freezing.
> 
> I am also for storing at home first, a storage facility gets expensive all but the die hard people will give them up after a while. Plus you need to rotate your food so that it is not bad when you need it. Personally I want to be as comfortable as possible when things are not going right.


If you really took the time to read this forum and get to know the nature of the long standing members' posts you understand this is a _*HOMESTEADING*_ forum and not a survivalist/mall ninja/lone wolf in the woods forum like all the rest. Your impulsive posts and accusations shows your lack of desire to be part of the group but the next trouble maker to be kicked out.

Take your close minded name calling some where else, please.


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## labotomi

gnome said:


> The amount of posts someone has has no bearing on how prepared they are


 That's not at all what he was saying


> am not here to school anyone


But that's the impression you give with your posts


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## Viking

And Grimm is being nice about it, so take it to heart.


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## Grimm

Viking said:


> And Grimm is being nice about it, so take it to heart.


Seriously. Where is this 'nice' attitude coming from!? Not normal for me at all. I better have the dosage of my meds checked!


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## LincTex

Both sides of the argument have valid points.

There are pros and cons BOTH to "bugging in"
There are pros and cons BOTH to "bugging out"

Each person must make the choice ahead of time...
whether to bug out... or not...
and WHEN


It doesn't have to be a riot. 
A tornado or hurricane can happen.

During Hurricane Ike in Sept 2008, my uncle in Houston decided to "Bug In" - -but he made the rest of his family Bug OUT - - long before it got there..., 

He wanted to protect the house. 
Wife and kids all had a place to go (300 miles away, but still)

He was lucky - some of the neighbors weren't

There are a LOT OF VARIABLES that can happen in ANY situation - 

Make a plan "A" and expect it to get tossed in the trash if needed...
so have Plans "B", "C" and "D" ready to go if needed!

So.... the choice is yours.
gnome - you are right and wrong all at the same time.


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## tpawebdesign

I am in Tampa

Is 800 miles too far to travel to a BOL?

I am not a hit and run whatever you called it, nor am I in England, nor am I hiding my IP address - whatever that means. 

I am new to this whole process and am trying to get some very basic questions answered on a very overwhelming topic.

Thank you to those who have given thoughtful responses.


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## Cotton

tpawebdesign said:


> I am in Tampa
> 
> Is 800 miles too far to travel to a BOL?


A method of traveling long distances often over looked is the water. 800 miles from Tampa covers a lot of ground. A boat up the east coast is possible as well as the Mississippi. Something to consider anyway, if the river you can travel at night, lay up during the day. For a long distance I wouldn't think linear, you can travel a long way by water giving yourself a much shorter walk in the end. It would also give some degree of safety from chaos than on an overland walk.

Another thought - can you fly a Cessna? They are really simple aircraft to fly, take a few lessons. In some kind of major disruption you might be able to rent or "borrow" one!  A 4 seat 172 has a 700 mile range.

If by some twist of fate I was caught 1000 miles away from home wshtf I would strongly consider both of the above.


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## fteter

You'll get tons of opinions, advice and "out of the box" thinking on bug-in v bug-out situations. Good stuff for you to sift through. What follows is my own take, based on a perspective from suburbia close to a city of a few million myself. I hope it helps.

My own plan "A" is to bug in, for three reasons: 1) I suspect that when I've figured out it's time to scoot, everybody else will have figured it out too - can't find any batteries to fit that dang crystal ball in my closet; 2) I'm coming to the age where I doubt I can "run and gun" my way to safety anymore; 3) My preps include not only supplies, but renewable sources of food here on my property. But I will also free admit that we keep bug-out bags for everyone in the house, just in case a situation arises that makes my plan "A" unrealistic.

I understand you're in a travel trailer? There is an upside there: you're free to be mobile even if you don't bug out...like quickly moving to a safer area of the city after the droves have departed. The downside is that a travel trailer is not very secure without some serious mods. So there's a trade-off to think over...one only you can answer. Or you could consider moving once to a more secure location within the city - an abandoned house, apartment, or even a storage unit that you've discreetly prepared to bad times.

Bottom line: seems like flexibility in your planning, providing you the ability to adapt to the situation at hand, matters most.

800 miles seems like a long distance to cover in an unstable situation, regardless of how you get there (unless Scotty calls on the communicator and tells you that the teleport is ready to go). Might be best to hole up close to where you are until the horde bugs out and disperses...then maybe start that trek, should you choose to go the bug-out route? Timing is everything 

OK, so I've rambled enough. You get the idea: prepared, flexible, adaptable. Hope this helps!


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## Tirediron

tpawebdesign said:


> I am in Tampa
> 
> Is 800 miles too far to travel to a BOL?
> 
> I am not a hit and run whatever you called it, nor am I in England, nor am I hiding my IP address - whatever that means.
> 
> I am new to this whole process and am trying to get some very basic questions answered on a very overwhelming topic.
> 
> Thank you to those who have given thoughtful responses.


Glad to see you back, we get a fair number of one hit wonders (they make one post with a question and then disappear)

starting the prep life style is a baby step process.


----------



## Marcus

800 miles? That's roughly a third of the way across the country.

I think I'd wait until things cooled off if possible. I'd also look at unconventional means such as a boat, railroad, etc. Even an ultralight might be a possibility if it can carry a decent amount of cargo.

Just walking that far will take ~40-60 days assuming no problems and decent physical shape. And even then you're limited to what you can carry or pull/push. The Mormons did something similar when they moved to Utah. They used push carts with large wheels. I mention it since you might want to download the cart plans.
You might also want to consider using a bike with a trailer since you'll be able to haul more what you could on your back and you'll move faster.

To go that far within a reasonable time and not be exhausted when you arrive may be the biggest obstacle.


----------



## mosquitomountainman

First: everyone needs a bug-out plan and supplies. In addition to some of the hazards already mentioned there are things like chemical spills, floods, possibility of radiation leakage or fallout from nuclear power plants in addition to firestorms (can happen in cities with no water or means to fight fires), or other things we don't normally expect.

If nothing else have the gear ready in layers: vehicle bug-out, bicycle bug-out, or hoofing it. Naturally the amount of supplies you can carry will drop with each method.

Have several locations to chose from with some of them far away. That way if the disaster is wide ranging/spread you'll still be able to find a safe location.

If you have a located, privately owned, bug-out location have plans to bug-out from it also. You just never know what might happen so cover as many bases as possible.

Try to set up a network of friends in other locations to go to if you need to BO.

Set up some caches with food, rudimentary medical supplies, extra ammo, etc. You don't need to invest a lot of money in them. Aim to replenish your BOB with them ... not to set up shop (unless it's your destination).

DO NOT just plan to go to your favorite camp site in the national forest. Undoubtedly there are a thousand other people with the same idea.

Have alternate means of transportation. Be careful on streams/rivers/waterways. Streams often make lots of turns and it's very easy to get ahead of someone and wait at the next bend to ambush them.

Our bug-out vehicle is a 14 foot U-Haul moving van we've converted into a motor home complete with solar power and a wood burning stove for heat and cooking. Below that we have panniers, racks, and bags for our bicycles and below that we have backpacking gear. We have relatives and friends all over the nation. We plan on using them just as we hope they'd come to us if they were in need.


----------



## Cotton

Just my op, walking 800 miles could easily take 4 to 6 months and the miles walked could increase dramatically in a shtf scenario. You’re going to have to fish, snare game, cook said acquired foods. The biggest obstacle I see are other people, most will have to be avoided. This means back tracking and circling, sometimes miles. It could easily take a year.

I see Marcus also mentioned flying and I wanted to say a little more about that. I’m lucky enough to have over 50 take offs and landings in Cessna’s and King Airs with several hundred hours of flight time. There is another alternative to training, remember, the 9-11 highjackers had never flown jets, they learned on flight simulators. There is some very good software available to the public. The following 2 programs are used for training today and still available for purchase. MS flight simulator 2002 and 2004.

In the 90’s I’d only flown Cessna’s then I had a serious health issue. I bought the then just released FS2002, very good software. Version 2004 is said to be better. Both will run on xp and win8 and are still available on Amazon.

The first thing I did with the new software was fly a Cessna 172 from Halifax NS to the Panama Canal to Whitehorse AK and back to Halifax. It took a year but I didn’t fly everyday. Granted, you don’t have the physical sensation of flying but all the technical aspects are there. The software is good enough so that if you screw up, you crash and burn! All you need is a cheap joystick, keyboard and speakers.

I still use my version. It allows me to download current weather conditions. Plan flights, practice takeoffs and landings on a couple dozen different aircraft types and in all weather conditions. It has free flying mode and teaching mode. In the teaching mode the program gives you audible warnings and gives step by step instructions.

One more word about a Cessna 172, I recently drove a friend’s 2015 Silverado. That truck is far more complicated than a Cessna. It had lights, buttons and switches everywhere. Lol  Go out to the local small airport and ask around, there is always a pilot who’s willing to take you up for a joy ride or two. It’s not that expensive. Maybe even take a couple of flying lessons. This is a very valuable skill for any prepper.

I’d urge anyone who might contemplate traveling a long distance in a shtf situation, consider flight.


----------



## Viking

Cotton said:


> A method of traveling long distances often over looked is the water. 800 miles from Tampa covers a lot of ground. A boat up the east coast is possible as well as the Mississippi. Something to consider anyway, if the river you can travel at night, lay up during the day. For a long distance I wouldn't think linear, you can travel a long way by water giving yourself a much shorter walk in the end. It would also give some degree of safety from chaos than on an overland walk.
> 
> Another thought - can you fly a Cessna? They are really simple aircraft to fly, take a few lessons. In some kind of major disruption you might be able to rent or "borrow" one!  A 4 seat 172 has a 700 mile range.
> 
> If by some twist of fate I was caught 1000 miles away from home wshtf I would strongly consider both of the above.


I was thinking about a boat as well, certainly a good way to get off an island rather than driving across bridges, power boats would be a bit noisy unless it was a quiet inboard, sailboat being the least noisy but have a sail that sticks out like a sore thumb.


----------



## gnome

Grimm said:


> If you really took the time to read this forum and get to know the nature of the long standing members' posts you understand this is a _*HOMESTEADING*_ forum and not a survivalist/mall ninja/lone wolf in the woods forum like all the rest. Your impulsive posts and accusations shows your lack of desire to be part of the group but the next trouble maker to be kicked out.
> 
> Take your close minded name calling some where else, please.


My mistake, I thought it was a prepping website, I must have been confused by the site name, topic and advice given to the user as the the type for forum this is. Now the other crap I do not know users qualifications so I can not say as to that.

I stand by my original assertion if you only prepare to bug out you are not prepared for anything. I feel the need to stick around an make things better otherwise no point in staying alive. If you go to your neighbors and talk about prepping to bug out for any disaster they why would they prepare with you. Sometimes just how you word things would make a large difference in getting others to join you. That alone is why I hate the BUG OUT BAG...

As to the 800 mile bug out, if you have family and friends 800 miles away go for it. I can only speak as to myself but if a family member or friend showed up to my place naked and needing weeks of bed rest I would be overjoyed that they came to me. I am sure I am not the only person that feels that. If you do not have family and still want to bug out 800 miles I still wish you luck.


----------



## ClemKadiddlehopper

Sorry, wrong post wrong time


----------



## Woody

gnome said:


> My mistake, I thought it was a prepping website, I must have been confused by the site name, topic and advice given to the user as the the type for forum this is. Now the other crap I do not know users qualifications so I can not say as to that.
> 
> I stand by my original assertion if you only prepare to bug out you are not prepared for anything. I feel the need to stick around an make things better otherwise no point in staying alive. If you go to your neighbors and talk about prepping to bug out for any disaster they why would they prepare with you. Sometimes just how you word things would make a large difference in getting others to join you. That alone is why I hate the BUG OUT BAG...
> 
> As to the 800 mile bug out, if you have family and friends 800 miles away go for it. I can only speak as to myself but if a family member or friend showed up to my place naked and needing weeks of bed rest I would be overjoyed that they came to me. I am sure I am not the only person that feels that. If you do not have family and still want to bug out 800 miles I still wish you luck.


Gnome. Relax, chill, have a cup of tea, a beer, smoke em if you got em or whatever. Welcome to the forums!

We are a very diverse group here. Folks too young to drive to those who probably should not still be driving. (And you know who you are!!!) Folks who live farther out than you could imagine, off the grid, grow/process all they consume, to folks who live in studio apartments in large cities. Folks who plan on the end of times, to folks who just want to prepare for a night without lights. And everything in-between!

Not every idea posted here will apply to everyone, far from it. What we bring together is varied ideas from a multitude of adults concerned about the same thing. Being Prepared for whatever happens.

Yes, some people will say a BOB is the most important item, others think a GHB (Get Home Bag) is. But I think everyone here would agree that having some sort of survival 'bag' or gear in your vehicle would be a high priority item. And what it contains will depend on your location. If you live in a large southern US city or a remote northern Canada location, those needs will not be the same.

We are open to new ideas! Heck, I've heard some crazy ones on here... but... at times there is always a little tidbit you can pick out which might fit your situation.

You don't plan on bugging out so don't feel the need for a BOB is required, great! I don't plan on bugging out either, THIS is my BOL. I have no stash hundreds of miles away or a secret plan to run to somewhere and hide. ALL of my preps are here on my property. But... There is a nuclear power plant not all that far away, lots of major train routs close by, major highways too... This area is a major medical research area.... AFTER I am prepared for a local storm, and to keep myself (AND the puppy!!!) alive for an extended time, wouldn't it be prudent to at least have a bag with a change of underwear and socks, maybe a couple dollars in it... just in case?

I've rambled enough, sorry...


----------



## Marcus

Woody said:


> Not every idea posted here will apply to everyone, far from it. What we bring together is varied ideas from a multitude of adults concerned about the same thing. Being Prepared for whatever happens.
> ...
> We are open to new ideas! Heck, I've heard some crazy ones on here... but... at times there is always a little tidbit you can pick out which might fit your situation.
> ...
> I've rambled enough, sorry...


I can't speak for anyone else, but I come here for the ideas.

This is a rather diverse group, and while some of the ideas aren't appropriate to what I want to achieve, some are. But even more importantly, some of the ideas make me think of new ways to do things.

For instance, someone posted a video of some folks out in Arizona who had greenhouses that were basically just a hole in the ground and covered with plastic. That got me to thinking of how I could apply such a thing here in Texas where we get a whole lot more rain. Add in raised beds for the garden along with the possibility of growing citrus trees, and I have taken the original idea much further than I expected. And it all came from watching a video and thinking things through to achieve the result I wanted.

As for you Woody, keep rambling.


----------



## DM1791

Another thing to keep in mind is that you can't really predict what you're going to do or how you're going to react when the time comes that the proverbial "stuff" hits the whirling fan. The reason for this is quite simple.... you never know what's going to hit until it hits.

I think when people build their entire strategy around one central theme like a Bug Out Location (BOL) or what I like to call a Shelter In Place (SIP) strategy, they are locking themselves into one train of thought. That kind of single-mindedness can be very dangerous in a real crisis situation. The thing that will best protect you in a truly critical moment is the ability to react to what you're facing with ease and fluidity. My father was a 23 year veteran of the Navy, a pilot, and eventually an officer of the watch at USCENTCOM. He always used to tell me to be prepared and to have a plan, but to remember that all a plan really constitutes is something to deviate from down the road. Planning is really just a training exercise to teach you new ways to look at and examine the world and events around you, not a set-in-stone action item list.

This is why the military trains or all kinds of possible contingencies. A plan is a great thing to have, and it teaches you a way to think about certain things, but a plan can also be dangerous. Once a plan gets set, people often feel very reluctant to step outside the step by step response or "plan" of action. 

One of the things that I have learned from years of research and months of mining these forums is that preparedness is less about a stockpile of ammo, food, water, medicine, BOL's, SIP's, BOB's, or anything else than it is about a state of mind. Being prepared is really about being ready to act or react as the situation calls for instead of waiting for circumstances to dictate your actions. In areas of the world where we have seen crisis and turmoil strike, it is the people who are ready to move in whatever direction and way that the situation requires when the moment of opportunity comes that are the ones who are likely to survive. 

In some situations, that moment will come and it will mean that you gather what you can and you hit the road a day or a week ahead of everyone else. In other situations, it will mean that when that time comes that everyone around you is panicking and fleeing, you gather what you can, secure yourself the best you know how to, and you SIP. The key to survival is training yourself to examine those situations and learning how to tell which action is called for, and then trusting yourself enough to see it through even when everyone around you is moving the opposite direction.

That's how I see it, anyway.... and now, I second Woody's motion that I have rambled too much, and I yield the balance of my time to the floor....


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## Cotton

Many times, the speed someone can react to change, is life! This is the reason for plan B, C, D, E&#8230; etc. I don't have to sit and think up plan B in a crisis. I can react quickly. I was also in the Navy, my job was to operate and repair missile systems. I've been a part of many war games, plan A almost always fails!

In case of the original OP&#8230; 800 miles in a crises is possible. In fact it's just as viable as staying in place with no resources in a small travel trailer. If in the OP's situation, I'd be prepared to move at a moments notice. Movement offers opportunities and options, none of these seem available to the OP by staying in place without a multilayered support system (limited information provided).

In his situation I'd scout the east coast marinas, find multiple locations where a sail boat may be "borrowed", the same for the Tampa area. Since I can fly I'd scout every small airport in the area. I'd give myself options in advance.

The main reason I'd want to leave Tampa in a shtf scenario&#8230; my skill set is far better suited for survival in a rural part of southern Appalachia than a large metro area in florida. If I had no support system in Tampa and no support system waiting anywhere else&#8230; I would still "bugout" to an area that matches my skill sets, an area where I best understand the people, weather and eco system.

Dm1791, "_Planning is really just a training exercise to teach you new ways to look at and examine the world and events around you, not a set-in-stone action item list._" You are so right.

As I posted in another thread&#8230; a few years ago I had the opportunity to take an "Urban escape and evasion" class in Atlanta (SERE toned down for civilians). I though&#8230; if shtf while I was there "How would I get home" I spent 3 months planning, going over ever scenario. The planning itself was an education and worth the effort. In preparation for the class I floated down a river for a day. I loaded a game cart with gear and went on a 10 mile hike. I did both these things in winter, adverse weather, just to see first hand what realistic expectations were. At the end of the day&#8230; the ability to adapt to changes was the key!


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## tpawebdesign

I did consider a boat and just heading out to sea. Would that be a good idea or utilize it to make my way to my bol?


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## sgtusmc98

tpawebdesign said:


> I did consider a boat and just heading out to sea. Would that be a good idea or utilize it to make my way to my bol?


If I had the money to do so, lived near the ocean, and liked being on the water (hobby) I would get a sail boat big enough to handle the ocean and that would be my bug out location if not my home with enough food and water to last a long time, long enough to hear if things settled or if South America was sounding good.

Yes I know this idea is extreme but it gives more options than many bug out plans.

Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


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## DM1791

The idea of going out to sea is definitely appealing, if for nothing other than the total isolation. There are several key drawbacks, though:

1) Eventually, you have to put back in for resupply.

Even nuclear subs have to come back to dock now and then to reload on supplies. When that day comes, where do you go? How will you get what you need? 

2) Increased risk of natural disaster affecting survivability.

I think this one is pretty self explanatory. You can't sink a mountain cabin in a sudden squall line.

3) No retreat/escape.

If you get cornered by hostile forces (possible despite the size of the oceans... just ask Blackbeard...) then there isn't any fallback location or escape route. You are totally exposed, isolated, and vulnerable. Your likelihood of surviving a hostile encounter would be pretty low unless you arm your boat to the teeth. I'm not sure what kind of international laws there are against hard-mounted, belt-fed weapons on the high seas, but I'm sure there are some pretty serious red tape issues there.

Using a boat to get from where you are to where you're going, though, could be a very viable way to travel. Especially if you are using a sailboat with no real need for artificial power.


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## tpawebdesign

It is overwhelming, and hugely expensive when you start looking at all of the different areas in which one must prepare - food storage, water storage and purification, tools, clothing, shelter, protection, food production, first aid, etc. the list is never ending! I hate to sound fatalist but what are the chances of surviving if I get trapped in a city of 4,000,000 without a huge network of like minded people working together? I've looked around the net for a local group, with no luck.


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## camo2460

tpawebdesign said:


> It is overwhelming, and hugely expensive when you start looking at all of the different areas in which one must prepare - food storage, water storage and purification, tools, clothing, shelter, protection, food production, first aid, etc. the list is never ending! I hate to sound fatalist but what are the chances of surviving if I get trapped in a city of 4,000,000 without a huge network of like minded people working together? I've looked around the net for a local group, with no luck.


We all understand how you feel, but prepping is a little like learning to walk, one step at a time. One thing to remember is that prepping is not only about how much "stuff" you have, but what you can do with the stuff you have. Having skills to fall back on will go a long way for your piece of mind, so learn some camping skills, both old fashioned and contemporary, maybe a trade such as building, welding, black smith, or animal husbandry to name just a few would assist with piece of mind. You don't even have to be a master at anything, but have enough skill to assist someone else would be very useful. Just remember that slow and steady wins the race, so a little each week goes a long way. One more thing: you might want to check out the books written by Susan and Stephan Gregerson, you can find them for a very modest price at Amazon.com. These authors live off the grid, and walk the walk and talk the talk. One book that might be of interest is "Prepping on a Budget" by these authors, and contains a lot of good information.


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## oldasrocks

Hey Camo, How it hanging?

I just finished reading The Survivalist Series by A. American. I have to send the books on to others in the group or I'd hold them for you to read.

You city folk need to read these. They are available on Amazon.

I don't think most city folk will make it out of the city unless they leave early whenever that is. Pay attention and remember most sheeple will be standing around like a deer in the headlights for a day or two in most cases.


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## IlliniWarrior

oldasrocks said:


> Hey Camo, How it hanging?
> 
> I just finished reading The Survivalist Series by A. American. I have to send the books on to others in the group or I'd hold them for you to read.
> 
> You city folk need to read these. They are available on Amazon.
> 
> I don't think most city folk will make it out of the city unless they leave early whenever that is. Pay attention and remember most sheeple will be standing around like a deer in the headlights for a day or two in most cases.


hope you didn't revive this Zombie just to post your "sage" advice ....

don't know long you've been prepping .... but I'll give you some advice .... don't believe everything you read in the PAW fiction - don't use it for references when giving advise to other preppers ....

hate to bust your bubble .... but in certain SHTFs you'll see people going INTO the cities for assistance - that's where any available help will be centered ...


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## oldasrocks

IlliniWarrior said:


> hope you didn't revive this Zombie just to post your "sage" advice ....
> 
> don't know long you've been prepping .... but I'll give you some advice .... don't believe everything you read in the PAW fiction - don't use it for references when giving advise to other preppers ....
> 
> hate to bust your bubble .... but in certain SHTFs you'll see people going INTO the cities for assistance - that's where any available help will be centered ...


I suggest you read the books before you pass judgement either on the books or me. I'll put my prepping skills, training in several disciplines, and experience above 80% of the average preppers. McGuyver would be an amateur in our group. I've spent 40 plus years developing my skills, not because I'm a prepper, but because I would rather do and fix everything myself. I've been in SHTF situations and see how people actually react. I've spent over 100K getting set up for this current coming problem and wish I had another million or so to spend.

So my "sage" advice is just that. These books are more realistic on what the ground situation might upfold to that most others I've read. I do think that some things in the books happen a little too conveniently.

I agree that most people will head for the cities and expect the government to care for them. When those supplies run out what will happen in the crowd?


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## readytogo

*Forget the millions and concentrated on you.*

Ok so let's do the numbers in my area between the two counties we have a total population of 4,532,109 and per square mile comes to a total of 2760.4 so with that in mind and taking in consideration that we have 3 major highways out of here you have to picture the death toll on the roads alone, the last major event here was Hurricane Andrew in 92, people actually went hysterical, the government had to deliver fuel to vehicles stranded on the roads, so with that been said you have to forget the 4,000,000 and worry and count on only one, that means You and Family.
Many in this forum will tell you the same, it doesn't take a logistic expert or a Rambo jungle expert to tell you so, survival is mainly a sound way of doing things in a environment gone sour, for instance you save money for an emergency ,you plan your meals accordingly ,you take care your health ,you take car your vehicle ,etc ,those are survival preparations. I personally don`t prepared for a WW3 event or a nuclear explosion or what many called a Zombie attack ,I definitely find more ways to save money than spending it ,I have learn during my lifetime to do things ,skills, trades , that support my way of life and keep me from depending on others ,from preparing more meals at home to keeping the plumber away, so my advice to you is to simply learn as much as you can ,if you like apples; canned appels,if you like bread ;learn the art of baking ,save your money ,eliminate the waste in your life ,and be careful of the confidence trickers,also known as a con game, a con, a scam, a grift, a hustle, a bunko (or bunco), a swindle, a flimflam, a gaffle or a bamboozle, all they want is your money in the name of survival.:wave:


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## oldasrocks

readytogo said:


> Ok so let's do the numbers in my area between the two counties we have a total population of 4,532,109 and per square mile comes to a total of 2760.4 so with that in mind and taking in consideration that we have 3 major highways out of here you have to picture the death toll on the roads alone, the last major event here was Hurricane Andrew in 92, people actually went hysterical, the government had to deliver fuel to vehicles stranded on the roads, so with that been said you have to forget the 4,000,000 and worry and count on only one, that means You and Family.
> Many in this forum will tell you the same, it doesn't take a logistic expert or a Rambo jungle expert to tell you so, survival is mainly a sound way of doing things in a environment gone sour, for instance you save money for an emergency ,you plan your meals accordingly ,you take care your health ,you take car your vehicle ,etc ,those are survival preparations. I personally don`t prepared for a WW3 event or a nuclear explosion or what many called a Zombie attack ,I definitely find more ways to save money than spending it ,I have learn during my lifetime to do things ,skills, trades , that support my way of life and keep me from depending on others ,from preparing more meals at home to keeping the plumber away, so my advice to you is to simply learn as much as you can ,if you like apples; canned appels,if you like bread ;learn the art of baking ,save your money ,eliminate the waste in your life ,and be careful of the confidence trickers,also known as a con game, a con, a scam, a grift, a hustle, a bunko (or bunco), a swindle, a flimflam, a gaffle or a bamboozle, all they want is your money in the name of survival.:wave:


Excellent advice above.

It breaks down to 3 major things. Either share your food till you starve also, shoot till you run out of bullets or are shot and 3 hide where no one can find you till the crap blows over.

I prefer Option 3 by far. I'm not going to share and have no desire to shoot anyone. One of the nicest city setups I've seen is a bunker built under the garage floor. The trick is to get it built without nosy neighbors seeing it done.


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## NaeKid

oldasrocks said:


> I prefer Option 3 by far. I'm not going to share and have no desire to shoot anyone. One of the nicest city setups I've seen is a bunker built under the garage floor. The trick is to get it built without nosy neighbors seeing it done.


A guy I know had done that, but, according to the city-planners, it is a wood-working shop under his garage. He has it built with great ventilation systems (both in and out), coms, self-contained power, etc.

Don't always need to hide it - most people will forget about it if he doesn't make mention of it.


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## Caribou

I've lived through one experience where I thought I might have to bug out. I was a freshman in college, living with relatives, and we had a wild land fire approaching us.

First, as soon as we knew that there was a potential to bug out we loaded the cars and pointed them down the driveway for a fast exit.

Second, we had a destination set.

Third, we had a trigger. If the fire jumped the road a hundred yards from the house we were gone. The fire burned down to that road. When the smoke was blown through a culvert and appeared on our side of the road the pulse rate took a bit of a jump.

If you are going to leave, leave early. As soon as the possibility arrises start packing and get the vehicle(s) topped off. Figure out what is going to trigger your exit and as soon as it happens hit the road. Make sure that your trigger is sooner than the great majority. If the traffic looks like five on Friday you might as well stay home and ride it out.


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## DM1791

My father was a military vet and worked as a civilian in military intelligence, command, and logistics. We talked about this subject quite a bit and how it related to different potential situations. For some things like wild fires and hurricanes, you have a good bit of advance warning and you can get out way ahead. Some things sneak up on you, though. 

There were some things that he gave the advice of leaving as soon as you hear about it. A case of small pox in an American city, for example. He always said if we ever saw that on the news it was time to leave. Right then. Didn't matter what city the case was in or how close it was to our home. That was the trigger to immediately bug out and go to our fall back location. 

Most things weren't that extreme, but I think you see my point. For some cases, you need to have an immediate trigger to get out ahead of the potential traffic jams or quarantine zone establishment. For other cases, a period of Shelter-in-place could help reduce the likelihood of getting caught out on the road when the excrement hits the spinning turbine, if you get my drift. 

The other thing that has always really stuck with me from his advice is to keep a paper map of both the city and the state you're in handy. If you do find yourself in a situation where you're heading out with the rest of the greater metro population around you (like you wake up and find the two square acre alien spacecraft hovering over downtown, or some such nonsense) it's always a good idea to have a low-tech way to find routes off the beaten path and away from main travel routes to get yourself clear.

Oh, and never discount rivers. A good inflatable raft or kayak that can hold basic supplies can get you miles downstream and away from the danger zone if you need to leave by unconventional paths.

:beercheer:


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## kinda

People have no clue. You can still WALK out of those cities, 20 miles per day. The highways are to be avoided if shtf. A mountain bicycle can help in certain condtions, mostly if you walk alongside of it and let the wheels carry the weight of your gear and water,, but now and then, you can coast downhill with it. Get nvd goggles, move at night and be 10x safer. You won't be going anywhere with a 4 wheeled vehicle, unless you live on the edge of the city and are able to leave first thing. A bike makes it feasible to carry an inflatable raft. and the raft can float you, your gear and the bike, too.


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## hiwall

Or hole up in the city until everyone leaves and then have the whole place for yourself!


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## DM1791

The only problem I would see with waiting it out in the city until "everyone leaves" is a that before you get to the point where people leave, you get to the point where people get desperate. In the city where I live there are somewhere over a million people in the metro area. If things really go bad (EMP, Small pox, Zombie apocalypse, etc) then long before you reach a point where all those people just up and leave, they'll get really desperate.

And desperate people are capable of wildly dangerous things. I keep coming back to Hurricane Katrina and the fact that within a week you could get shot over bottled water in some parts of New Orleans. When civil order truly breaks down, people will do just about anything to stay alive. And unless you have some master plan to completely avoid detection by the desperate people around you, the remaining in or around that population center will at some point become extremely hazardous to your health. 

Pretty much any major city in the world has its own organized crime groups, street gangs, etc. They will be the ones that end up strong arming the frightened people when push comes to shove. And when things really get thin, they'll start wiping out everyone around them who is either a threat, vulnerable, or competition. 

In my estimation, if you're in or around a major city and something really bad goes down, a true SHTF situation, you have a ticking clock. There will be a window of opportunity when you can leave, and leave fast, before the rest of the countryside starts locking down and the cities start eating themselves from the inside out. If you don't make it out within that window, you can either find some faction to take up with and hope your group is able to fight off the others for survival, or you can hide and hope to everything holy that you manage to stay hidden.

Neither prospect is really attractive to me. I've long said that depending on where you are, you have to know what your red line moment is. And if/when it hits, you move. Period. 

Just my 2 cents.

Love the discussions that end up breaking out here. I need to make it a point to take more frequent breaks from working on my second book. 

Cheers.


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## ras1219como

DM I completely agree with you. Staying in a major city after SHTF for any length of time is likely to be a poor decision. I would extend that to any population center with more than 15 or 20,000 people.


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## TheLazyL

hiwall said:


> Or hole up in the city until everyone leaves and then have the whole place for yourself!


That would be an option. Like any plan there would be some ifs involved.

If you can remain alive while the hordes escape the city.

If you can remain hidden until the remaining population and gangs move out or die off.

If potential plagues pass you by.

If the scavengers coming back into the city looking for supplies don't find you.

If you could find a area that could provide you with advanced warning of anyone trying to sneak up on you. Bit hard to do in a city full of buildings, tunnels, and etc.

If you could have multiable escapes routes. A zip line to another building would be cool.

Then I'd say you would be sitting pretty.

Haul top soil to roofs for food gardens.

A lot of roof areas for rain water collection.

Take out a few windows for bird traping. I'd suspect birds would be your primary source of meat.

Lots of sources for materials to MacGyver things to make your life more comfortable.


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## Marcus

If I were going to try to survive by holing up in a major city, I'd look for a very specific type of skyscraper. In addition to LazyL's list, I'll add these requirements.

1. It would have to be the tallest building within at least a mile and preferably 2 miles. It would also have to taller than any surrounding terrain within probably 10 miles.
Reason: I don't want tangos to be able to shoot me or even observe me when I was on the roof. Assuming helicopters are still flyable for a time after the event, whatever I put on the roof would have to be disguised so as not to be different from any other buildings.

2. I'd have to have access to all maintenance spaces, ideally with a set of keys. 
Reason: I want to be able to shutoff the water supply on the roof (or upper story), the water supply in the basement, and on as many floors as possible. I also want to be able to shutoff any elevators and perhaps the sewer. The sewer will depend on the building layout and whether a sump pump is used.

3. I'd want enough steel available to block off all stairwells at multiple points well below whatever the floor I choose to reside. I'd also figure some way to secure elevator doors on every floor.

4. I'd also want a lift system for the elevator shafts for moving materials to heights easily.

I'd also want a large supply of stored food along with a way to cook it on an upper floor. That pretty much limits you to solar or camping type stoves. Sustainability will be the biggest issue especially for potable water.


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## PeachesBackwards

*I'm Exactly in Your Situation in LA (suburb) Here Are Some Tips*

First off I just skimmed over a few responses so if anything has already been said, I apologize. I'm in the same situation as you and my biggest fear is security of my prep & future prep items especially from the morons in my apt. building.

First off, I'd get both an electric bike and a regular bike as you won't be able to go anywhere with a car.

2. I would have up to 2 years worth of food that won't expire or will last a long time like spaghetti, rice, etc. This would be food that you normally eat anyway but you have it in your home so you won't get screwed when the Supermarkets close down. I would also have a considerable amount of freeze dried food that can last 10-30 years unopened especially protein. I buy a few of these each month. Once opened you have to eat them within 1-2 weeks usually.

3. Stock as many medicines and herbs as you can and don't throw away clothes if you've lost weight because those close show that you don't have much food, lol.

4. Establish some kind of out of the way place where you can stay say in Exchange for your food, etc. I still have to do this.

5. Have at least $500 cash on you,

6. Get a shotgun or at least a stun gun legally.

Much more to add but these are some of the top ones.


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## hiwall

PeachesBackwards said:


> First off I just skimmed over a few responses so if anything has already been said, I apologize. I'm in the same situation as you and my biggest fear is security of my prep & future prep items especially from the morons in my apt. building.
> 
> First off, I'd get both an electric bike and a regular bike as you won't be able to go anywhere with a car.
> 
> 2. I would have up to 2 years worth of food that won't expire or will last a long time like spaghetti, rice, etc. This would be food that you normally eat anyway but you have it in your home so you won't get screwed when the Supermarkets close down. I would also have a considerable amount of freeze dried food that can last 10-30 years unopened especially protein. I buy a few of these each month. Once opened you have to eat them within 1-2 weeks usually.
> 
> 3. Stock as many medicines and herbs as you can and don't throw away clothes if you've lost weight because those close show that you don't have much food, lol.
> 
> 4. Establish some kind of out of the way place where you can stay say in Exchange for your food, etc. I still have to do this.
> 
> 5. Have at least $500 cash on you,
> 
> 6. Get a shotgun or at least a stun gun legally.
> 
> Much more to add but these are some of the top ones.


Water would be the most critical thing for you. Water is very cheap(or free) to store but very heavy and bulky.
Also all that food would require water and a method to cook it.


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## jimLE

i live 6 miles outside a small city of 1200.but yet im in agreement with this.staying where i live right now.WILL become a kill/dead zone eventually..in which,thats a chance i wont take with my life.and that means i'll bug out the first safe chance i get..

In my estimation, if you're in or around a major city and something really bad goes down, a true SHTF situation, you have a ticking clock. There will be a window of opportunity when you can leave, and leave fast, before the rest of the countryside starts locking down and the cities start eating themselves from the inside out. If you don't make it out within that window, you can either find some faction to take up with and hope your group is able to fight off the others for survival, or you can hide and hope to everything holy that you manage to stay hidden.

I've long said that depending on where you are, you have to know what your red line moment is. And if/when it hits, you move. Period.


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## Gians

I'd get to know several like minded sane neighbors and where accessible water is located in case you run out. Having a plan of action would be a good idea, can always modify it. Wouldn't migrate to skyscrapers or tall buildings if there's no fire dept.


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## PeachesBackwards

hiwall said:


> Water would be the most critical thing for you. Water is very cheap(or free) to store but very heavy and bulky.
> Also all that food would require water and a method to cook it.


Forgot to include that, sorry. Right now I only have about a month supply of bottled water.


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## PeachesBackwards

jimLE said:


> i live 6 miles outside a small city of 1200.but yet im in agreement with this.staying where i live right now.WILL become a kill/dead zone eventually..in which,thats a chance i wont take with my life.and that means i'll bug out the first safe chance i get..
> 
> In my estimation, if you're in or around a major city and something really bad goes down, a true SHTF situation, you have a ticking clock. There will be a window of opportunity when you can leave, and leave fast, before the rest of the countryside starts locking down and the cities start eating themselves from the inside out. If you don't make it out within that window, you can either find some faction to take up with and hope your group is able to fight off the others for survival, or you can hide and hope to everything holy that you manage to stay hidden.
> 
> I've long said that depending on where you are, you have to know what your red line moment is. And if/when it hits, you move. Period.


Agree totally with you which scares the hell out of me cause right now I don't have any escape safe house.


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## PeachesBackwards

Gians said:


> I'd get to know several like minded sane neighbors and where accessible water is located in case you run out. Having a plan of action would be a good idea, can always modify it. Wouldn't migrate to skyscrapers or tall buildings if there's no fire dept.


That's the problem. The people in my apartment building are morons and won't consider the possibility of these situations and too high a percentage of strangers that would are nutcases that I don't want to know. Like I say a problem!


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## Grimm

PeachesBackwards said:


> That's the problem. The people in my apartment building are morons and won't consider the possibility of these situations and too high a percentage of strangers that would are nutcases that I don't want to know. Like I say a problem!


It might be time for you to move out of the metro area.

Best decision K and I made- to move out of the immediate Los Angeles area.


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## Country Living

Peaches, when you're first starting to prep it's easy to imagine all of the big things that could happen and those are the ones on which you initially focus. Don't get so intent on staring at the forest you don't see the rattlesnake coiling by your feet.

It's the small things that seem to hurt the most. 

Live below your means. It's not how much you make; but, how much you spend that counts.
Have an emergency fund. 
Get out of debt. It's amazing how much more freedom and relief you have when you are working to live instead of working to pay off debt.
Protect your finances by putting a freeze on your accounts at all three credit bureaus. 
Have your annual wellness and dental exams. 
Keep your vehicle maintained. 
If you don't know, learn how to make all kinds of bread from scratch.
Learn to can (get fresh veggies from a Farmer's Market).
Never - carved in stone - co-sign for a loan for anyone. I don't care if it's your sister, mother, best friend. If they can't get the loan on their own, they have proven to the financial institution they either don't have the income or can't manage their money.
Pay attention when you're walking to and from your car. 
Trust; but, verify. It used to be the news was objective and factual. The primary purpose of the news these days is to make money for the station in the way of viewership. The more horrific the news the better for the moneymakers. I miss the days of Walter Cronkite.

Where I'm going with this is don't be so focused on the "could be" where you miss the more probable "will be". You're more likely to be a victim of identity theft than an EMP. You're more likely to need something fixed on the car than you are for a pandemic. Put a plan together to pay off the credit cards (and quit using them for consumables).

IMHO.


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## PeachesBackwards

Grimm said:


> It might be time for you to move out of the metro area.
> 
> Best decision K and I made- to move out of the immediate Los Angeles area.


Easier said than done, unfortunately. There are reasons some of us live where we do. In my case, my sister who I'm close to, lives a 10 minute walk away with her husband and she has no desire to move away. I place my relationship with her above moving out of the City.


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## Grimm

PeachesBackwards said:


> Easier said than done, unfortunately. There are reasons some of us live where we do. In my case, my sister who I'm close to, lives a 10 minute walk away with her husband and she has no desire to move away. I place my relationship with her above moving out of the City.


I'm glad you have a strong relationship with your sister. Family is a good reason to prep. Talk to your sister and BIL about prepping. Maybe they will start prepping with you and you will be one step closer to forming a MAG. Then you stand a better chance when SHTF in the city.

I guess I lucked out. I'm an only child and K's siblings are all asshats that are selfish. They actually have no idea where we currently live by their own choice. But that is a story for a different day.


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## PeachesBackwards

Grimm said:


> I'm glad you have a strong relationship with your sister. Family is a good reason to prep. Talk to your sister and BIL about prepping. Maybe they will start prepping with you and you will be one step closer to forming a MAG. Then you stand a better chance when SHTF in the city.
> 
> I guess I lucked out. I'm an only child and K's siblings are all asshats that are selfish. They actually have no idea where we currently live by their own choice. But that is a story for a different day.


Yeah that and job requirements. Obviously the best scenario which unfortunately I don't have the money for is a second house isolated that is accessible by bicycle or walking. In the mean time at least I'm trying to make food and medical preparations in my apartment and hope later on to form some kind of group or arrangement where I'd have access to an out of the way location. Honestly, if TEOEWAWKI started this year, I'm screwed and I know it but hopefully later on I won't be if it happens.


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## Cotton

PeachesBackwards said:


> Honestly, if TEOEWAWKI started this year, I'm screwed and I know it but hopefully later on I won't be if it happens.


Your apartment building&#8230; not a good place to be.

1st - Things look different on foot than while driving, one sees all sorts of things that had gone un-noticed. I'd start scouting the neighborhood block by block, mapping as I went. I'd look for any structure with reinforced concrete walls, not cinderblock. Any such building that is empty or a business that is likey to be empty during a disaster. I'd log all access points to any structure that made it onto my list. I'd especially look for any structure that had been a bank in the past, not worried about a vault, just reinforced walls. They are usually on a corner or away from the rest of a strip mall but share the same parking lot. A lot of banks went out of business in '08.

Next I'd map all out of the way or hard to see fire hydrants close to any structure that makes my list as well as swimming pools.

2nd - I'd map several possible foot routes to my sisters. I'd walk most of each route mapping solid structures, hiding spots and possible water sources as I went. Pull up google satellite maps of these routes, easy to see swimming pools, possible hiding spots, clumps of thick brush, abandoned buildings.

3rd - I'd scout a 5 block radius around my sisters place for solid structures and water sources.

At all the mapped locations I'd scout food sources as well, mom & pop places with can goods, dollar stores, no place with high value for idiots like places selling liquor or beer. I'd also mark places were weapons could be obtained, like sporting good stores, bows & arrows, heck, even BB guns. Again, nothing high value like gun shops, they are going to well guarded or in criminals hands moments after a shtf event.

Even in LA there are many un-noticed drainage routes.

The above would take time to accomplish if you're not used to looking at your surroundings a different way. If you know anyone with military training that would go a long way to making this a much easier task. Check for any veteran groups in the area.

In the end&#8230; during a disaster or chaos&#8230; you have options, you're not hiding in terror in an apartment building some idiot might torch.

http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f23/urban-escape-evasion-22131/

I posted about a class I took. This guy teaches in LA a couple of times a year. It's expensive but well worth it! I'm ex-military but still learned much in a class toned down for civilians.


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## Grimm

PeachesBackwards said:


> Yeah that and job requirements. Obviously the best scenario which unfortunately I don't have the money for is a second house isolated that is accessible by bicycle or walking. In the mean time at least I'm trying to make food and medical preparations in my apartment and hope later on to form some kind of group or arrangement where I'd have access to an out of the way location. Honestly, if TEOEWAWKI started this year, I'm screwed and I know it but hopefully later on I won't be if it happens.


I can relate to job requirements and commuting.

Right now K has to commute to Downtown LA for work. Before Roo was born I commuted all over LA County for work. It seems everywhere I have lived commuting has always been a part of life. Even when I lived in Tracy, CA you had to drive a while to get to work or even the grocery store. If we could guarantee where the job site K works and find something 'rural' near by living with a shorter commute could be possible.

Since the forum knows next to nothing about you or your situation it is hard for us to offer advice and solutions. You don't need to tell us anything but please consider that we have been told nothing about you when you read and respond to our comments.


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## Grimm

Cotton said:


> Your apartment building&#8230; not a good place to be.
> 
> *CUT FOR LENGTH*
> 
> I posted about a class I took. This guy teaches in LA a couple of times a year. It's expensive but well worth it! I'm ex-military but still learned much in a class toned down for civilians.


I wanted to share a blog post I found a while back. The author seems to be the type who keeps their eyes open when walking around or traveling through their urban city.

http://armageddongirl.blogspot.com/2010/02/squeezing-rock-for-water.html



> Depending on where you live and if you plan on getting the hell outta Dodge asap you can score 5 gallon cooler bottles of water. While taking my morning walk with the dogs I noticed about a dozen homes that get these bottles delivered. The new bottles are left outside until they are needed. There is no way to be 100% sure these will be there in the end but it never hurts to know that they are there now.


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## PeachesBackwards

Thanks I like a bunch of your ideas (below) which I never thought of particularly. The one thing that intrigues me is, moving to say an abandoned office building, space, one of those buildings where they rent offices each month, etc. Do you really think people looking for resources like food, water, medicine, etc., still won't go looking regularly in those places? My guy feel unfortunately is they will. Am I wrong?



Cotton said:


> Your apartment building&#8230; not a good place to be.
> 
> 1st - Things look different on foot than while driving, one sees all sorts of things that had gone un-noticed. I'd start scouting the neighborhood block by block, mapping as I went. I'd look for any structure with reinforced concrete walls, not cinderblock. Any such building that is empty or a business that is likey to be empty during a disaster. I'd log all access points to any structure that made it onto my list. I'd especially look for any structure that had been a bank in the past, not worried about a vault, just reinforced walls. They are usually on a corner or away from the rest of a strip mall but share the same parking lot. A lot of banks went out of business in '08.
> 
> Next I'd map all out of the way or hard to see fire hydrants close to any structure that makes my list as well as swimming pools.
> 
> 2nd - I'd map several possible foot routes to my sisters. I'd walk most of each route mapping solid structures, hiding spots and possible water sources as I went. Pull up google satellite maps of these routes, easy to see swimming pools, possible hiding spots, clumps of thick brush, abandoned buildings.
> 
> 3rd - I'd scout a 5 block radius around my sisters place for solid structures and water sources.
> 
> At all the mapped locations I'd scout food sources as well, mom & pop places with can goods, dollar stores, no place with high value for idiots like places selling liquor or beer. I'd also mark places were weapons could be obtained, like sporting good stores, bows & arrows, heck, even BB guns. Again, nothing high value like gun shops, they are going to well guarded or in criminals hands moments after a shtf event.
> 
> Even in LA there are many un-noticed drainage routes.
> 
> The above would take time to accomplish if you're not used to looking at your surroundings a different way. If you know anyone with military training that would go a long way to making this a much easier task. Check for any veteran groups in the area.
> 
> In the end&#8230; during a disaster or chaos&#8230; you have options, you're not hiding in terror in an apartment building some idiot might torch.
> 
> http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f23/urban-escape-evasion-22131/
> 
> I posted about a class I took. This guy teaches in LA a couple of times a year. It's expensive but well worth it! I'm ex-military but still learned much in a class toned down for civilians.


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## Cotton

PeachesBackwards said:


> Thanks I like a bunch of your ideas (below) which I never thought of particularly. The one thing that intrigues me is, moving to say an abandoned office building, space, one of those buildings where they rent offices each month, etc. Do you really think people looking for resources like food, water, medicine, etc., still won't go looking regularly in those places? My guy feel unfortunately is they will. Am I wrong?


Exactly what is your "other" opposed too?? Does he suggest folk's looking for food, medicine, weapons or booze will over run "Joe's Knit Wit" yarn store (formally a bank)? That folks will mob just any business? I don't think so.


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## mojo4

Survival in a city is always a question of how long can you survive, not thrive. Too many people fighting over scarce resources, a serious inability to grow crops and animals, limited access to water and too many threats to security. For apartment dwellers it's even worse. No space to grow food or keep animals and too many other hungry and dangerous people after several weeks of disaster. It would be a shame to be murdered over backyard chickens but that is highly likely for urban pioneers.


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## PeachesBackwards

Cotton said:


> Exactly what is your "other" opposed too?? Does he suggest folk's looking for food, medicine, weapons or booze will over run "Joe's Knit Wit" yarn store (formally a bank)? That folks will mob just any business? I don't think so.


LOL Sorry I'm male and straight. Peachesbackwards was the telephone phone number of a whore house in NY in the 60s and is easy to remember! Logically you are correct and I wish things worked that way but we're dealing in an illogical world with moronic desperate people! But its a better choice than staying in my apartment!


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## Cotton

I was wondering about that name... lol. I always thought the biggest threat in a big city was from fire, at least initially. An uncontrolled fire in a place like LA would be devastating. If I lived there I'd have a man-hole cover tool in my kit, never know when you might need to go underground for a few hours.

edit... out of curiosity I checked amazon, of course they have them! You can buy manhole cover hooks for about $30.


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## gabbyj310

Since I've been out of touch for sometime,this was a great thread for me. In being away I did decide to give up my place in Fl and move totally to my "mini" farm in Ky.!!:congrat:For all the right reason I would think. But even then,since I do live in a somewhat out of the way area if things do get worse,my daughter in law's grandmother has a 100 acres in a very very rural place just off the beaten path in KY(one way in one way out on a gravel road)(caves included too).We, as in most of the family have all talked to her and she welcomes us to "bug out" there with all of our supplies close at hand,she has a deep well and plenty of space so we don't cramp anyone elses area. I decided to buy a small camper trailer that can be pulled at a moments notice.This way I have "my space" to sleep use the bathroom and even cook.If we have to huddled together it's still a good idea to have some private space but close enough for security and not get on each others nerves either(very young kids and older people can sometimes be a hard mix).I was going to buy one of those large camo nets to also cover the trailer just so it's not so noticed.I have a nice solar generator for a little power too. All in all it could work.Now I just hope I'm home and not floating around in the ocean working. I want to be with the family since we are all like minded!!!


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## Beaniemaster2

Gabbyj310... You mentioned you have a solar generator... Could you please tell me about it? We are thinking about getting one... Thank you so much in advance... We also relocated to KY and got a 'mini' farm... We have a camper too and ready to go but only if we have to... We don't know where to go yet, that is what we need to figure out cause we are meeting others... You are very lucky to have your new set up... congrats!


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## tmttactical

tpawebdesign said:


> I am in Tampa
> 
> Is 800 miles too far to travel to a BOL?
> 
> I am not a hit and run whatever you called it, nor am I in England, nor am I hiding my IP address - whatever that means.
> 
> I am new to this whole process and am trying to get some very basic questions answered on a very overwhelming topic.
> 
> Thank you to those who have given thoughtful responses.


I live in Arizona but I use a VPN and my IP address can show up from 30 of more locations. I don't hide to be sneaky but I DO GET VERY IRRITATED by spammer, and ad companies. My 2 ad blockers have blocked over 1000 (not a typo) internet trackers and the number is still climbing. I use FireFox private browser mode too. I don't worry about the government snooping, simply because I can't stop them but I can slow down the companies selling my private info. I will post my thoughts about Bugging In, as that is my plan.


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## tmttactical

tpawebdesign said:


> If the SHTF, for whatever reason, isn't it a reasonable assumption that I will be stuck on the road with 3,999,999 other people trying to get out of the city? That cannot be a very safe situation.
> 
> Should I just plan/prepare to stay in place? I cannot find much information about that - everyone says leave big cities but I'm afraid that is going to be almost impossible. So how do I prepare?


Here in my concept. I am a prepper noob, so my idea and 3 dollars will get you a cup of coffee at Denny's. If you have enough warning and can leave for a safe location before the rest of the city hits the road, then go. If you don't have these options, then you need at the minimum, food, water and security. First food and water, you should to store at least 3 months. All the security in the world won't help if you don't have nourishment. After the first 2 items, then security becomes your main concern. Your objective is to become invisible. Here is my take on "Invisibility". Board up all window, no light in - no light out. Block exterior access doors. Before blocking windows post hand written signs indicating food gone, water gone, your gone. There are many details to be resolved to maintain your cloak of invisibility and your security but If you have no other viable choices, then you have to do the best you can.


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## tpawebdesign

How do I stay invisible?


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## hiwall

tpawebdesign said:


> How do I stay invisible?


If you stay inside and block the windows, no one is likely to find you.


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## Caribou

tpawebdesign said:


> How do I stay invisible?


People will be attracted to light, noise, and smell. Blackout curtains after dusk. Keep things as quiet as possible. Cooking can be a big giveaway. If other homes are close be very cautious about what you cook and when you cook it. Think about how far away you can smell a cigarette or food, especially when you are hungry.

You might try some misdirection. As mentioned earlier, a note on the door, Tom (or other fake name) We waited as long as we could. Food gone, water gone so we loaded up everything else in the trailer and went to Burt's. A few odds and ends scattered in the yard to simulate a fast packing job might add to the deception.


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## jimLE

tpawebdesign said:


> I did consider a boat and just heading out to sea. Would that be a good idea or utilize it to make my way to my bol?


have a island in which you can go to?if not,then what? if so.then do you have the needed means to survive on the island?and whats the chances of someone else showing up there?


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## TheLazyL

Caribou said:


> People will be attracted to light, noise, and smell. Blackout curtains after dusk. Keep things as quiet as possible. Cooking can be a big giveaway. ...


And another give-a-way is cigarette smoke.

I had a boss that like to sneak up on employees. What he didn't realize is that I could smell him coming.

I don't have any real close neighbors, so when I smelled cigarette smoke I investigated. A City Hunter was cutting thru my part of the woods smoking :nuts:

When you are pulling night guard duty the glow from the cigarette is a perfect locator of your position.


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