# Off grid well system qestions.



## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

I am putting in a well on a piece of land off grid. The well pump most likely will be run off of a 240 volt generator. I'm curious if anyone else runs a system like this. I know I cant run genny to run the well pump every time someone turns on some water. I was thinking I would need an elevated tank that I could pump water into from time to time as needed then use gravity feed from the tank as water is needed and refill the elevated tank from time to time.
Any better ideas?


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## Wellrounded (Sep 25, 2011)

We have three ways of pumping from our deep well. Mains (or generator), solar and a windmill. We pump up to one 15,000 gallon store tank and two 1250 gallon store tanks. The tanks are on the highest point of the farm, about 75 feet higher than the vegetable garden. This system works beautifully for our irrigation and farm reticulation. Our household supply is a 5,000 gallon rainwater store tank under the eaves, currently has a mains pump/pressure switch on it. One of the 1250 gallon tanks on the hill will become extra rainwater store and give us 75 feet gravity feed to the house. We'll do this as soon as we can afford to run another water line up the hill. We'll put a solar pump set up on this. This is the type of system I've had on every farm I've lived on with the exception that I've had engines running pumps rather than mains supply pumps on a few off grid setups.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

Wellrounded, have you ever put a pressure gauge on your gravity feed? We have a hand cast concrete 1,100 gallon cistern at the top of our property, gravity fed from a spring 460 feet from the corner of our property up the mountain behind us. Since the spring really slows down in the summer months it isn't feasible to be used as a direct spring water supply, however even at it's slowest it does restore what's used out of the cistern during each days use. I get 25 psi from the cistern at the house. If we didn't have the spring we would have to pump from a well at the lowest portion of our property and I have thought of putting in such a system just in case of a drought situation where the watershed was not replenished from winter rains and snows, or if the forests above were logged to where subsurface water isn't stored as well, I say that because over the years of living here as the trees have regrown from logging before we came here our spring outflow during the summer has improved considerably. And yes, we realize how blessed we are not to have to use electricity to have water pressure in our home.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Like mentioned, the best setup imo, especially from a preparedness perspective is to pump the water from the well into a surface or elevated storage tank. From there you can use gravity, OR an efficient pump to pressurize the water to a standard psi. There are many very efficient pumps available, from the small RV varieties, up to much larger units.


If for some reason you need to avoid a storage tank it is entirely doable to have a submersible pump "on-demand" like a regular grid application, you just need to install a battery bank. This works fine, have done this many times (temporary application and too cold to install an above ground tank) but is generally much less efficient due to stop/start cycles and much higher pressure at the pump.

The performance of your system will be greatly effected by the type of well pump you install, so it is best to figure this out ahead of time for sure. For example, if you ever intend to run the pump off batteries or any other alternative power system, you will want a very efficient pump, likely with a low gpm. If you are going to run it only via gen. power then maximizing your wells gpm is likely going to be more important, as long as it fits within available wattage.


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## Wellrounded (Sep 25, 2011)

Testing my memory here but if I remember right it's about 43 psi at the well head below the house and about 35 psi or a little more at the house. We run a 1 hp pump (mains) at the well and pump somewhere around 3 - 4 gallons a minute to the top tank, we'd do a bit better if we did a thorough line flush as it builds deposits pretty. That's about all we can pump as the wells recharge rate is pretty low. We can fill the 15,000 gallon in about 3 days. Our water use is pretty high in summer, not at all unusual for us to use 5000 gallon a day.


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

cowboyhermit said:


> OR an efficient pump to pressurize the water to a standard psi.


So are you saying to pressurize the storage tank in order to have good line pressure everywhere else? Is that possible with a 1500 gallon tank like the ones you would buy at a farm store? I know the small tanks that are put on an on-grid home are designed to have some air and some water in order to pressurize but a large storage tank is just a large empty tank.

I do have a solar system to install there as well as a battery bank but I really don't want to utilize the bank for the well unless it was needed in a genset down situation. I will probably need that power from the batteries to keep other things running especially in the summer.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

LastOutlaw said:


> So are you saying to pressurize the storage tank in order to have good line pressure everywhere else? Is that possible with a 1500 gallon tank like the ones you would buy at a farm store? I know the small tanks that are put on an on-grid home are designed to have some air and some water in order to pressurize but a large storage tank is just a large empty tank.
> 
> I do have a solar system to install there as well as a battery bank but I really don't want to utilize the bank for the well. I will probably need that power from the batteries to keep other things running especially in the summer.


No, not the storage tank, the pressure pump goes in-line between the tank and the house (or whatever you will use it for). Essentially like the system in an rv when using tank water. Adding at least a tiny "surge" pressure tank will give you a more steady pressure and longer pump life but are not necessary with many pumps (especially diaphragm ones).


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

cowboyhermit said:


> No, not the storage tank, the pressure pump goes in-line between the tank and the house (or whatever you will use it for). Essentially like the system in an rv when using tank water. Adding at least a tiny "surge" pressure tank will give you a more steady pressure and longer pump life but are not necessary with many pumps (especially diaphragm ones).


I'm not familiar with an RV system. So this in-line pressure system has a smaller tank or bladder in the line to hold pressure up? How often would power be needed to re-pressurize the line each time a faucet was opened? The reason I ask is that I will be very limited on available electricity...now I'm running off to research an rv water system.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Sorry if I was unclear, here is an example, no comment on the models or site, just random.

http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-6029-aquatec-5513-1e01-b606-pump-60-gpm-12-fpt-115v-ac-no-cord.aspx









http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-9468-remco-powerrv-5200-rv-water-pump-12vdc-60-psi.aspx









http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-11374-shurflo-181-201-accumlator-tank.aspx









The size and type of system what kind of gpm you need, and how consistent of a pressure will dictate how small or large all the components need to be. You don't_ need_ a pressure/accumulator tank but it is better to have one in most cases. These pumps use very little power, especially in small sizes, obviously more than gravity but nothing compared to a traditional well pump.


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## Wellrounded (Sep 25, 2011)

Reading through threads like this makes me realise the huge differences between climates, countries etc. Cowboyhermit your comment about being too cold for above ground storage made me do a double take :laugh: I've only ever seen snow once in my life, never seen anything more than a light frost and an inch of ice on troughs would be time to go get the camera. We use pressure pumps EVERYWHERE here, we have rainwater storage just below eave level and have small pressure reduction switched pump (turns on when you turn the tap on therefore dropping pressure in the system, no bladder or storage) to bring psi up to about 25psi on average (higher for 2 level homes). When you turn the tap on there will be a short pause then the pump will kick in. Off grid folk use gravity feed as the norm though.
We also DO NOT filter rainwater, well some city people do and ex-city people, us country folk just drink the stuff. All country homes have rainwater storage, 5000 gallon would be about the minimum.


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

OK, I see now. I'm going to need an elevated tank for sure. I'm guessing I can play it by ear as to whether or not I need to add one of those pumps depending on the line pressure. Those pumps look much like the 12 volt flojet pump I'm using on my ecotemp shower. So, I need to set up my well pump to pump directly to an elevated tank on poles above the wellhead. Then I can see how much line pressure I have after it comes out of the tank and drops to ground level. I was hoping to have well diggers in there next weekend and pump installers right behind the diggers. (My well diggers no longer deal with the pumps) So it looks like I have a lot of work to do before i can bring in pump installers. Tank will have to be set up before I bring in pump installers I would guess. I also want to set up a hand pump in the system but that will depend on how deep they have to go for the water. Maybe the pump installers can answer some of these questions since they have done a few of these in the area.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

LastOutlaw said:


> So, I need to set up my well pump to pump directly to an elevated tank on poles above the wellhead. Then I can see how much line pressure I have after it comes out of the tank and drops to ground level. ...


4.3psi for every 10ft of head, regardless of the size of tank (which confuses a LOT of people), that doesn't account for line losses when in use which will depend/vary based on gpm use and the size of pipe.



Wellrounded said:


> Reading through threads like this makes me realise the huge differences between climates, countries etc. Cowboyhermit your comment about being too cold for above ground storage made me do a double take :laugh: I've only ever seen snow once in my life, never seen anything more than a light frost and an inch of ice on troughs would be time to go get the camera. ...


-20C here tonight , need a lot of flow or insulation to keep a big tank from freezing without added heat in that. Oh and the frost line is probably 6ft down


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

*Thanks*

Thank you all for your input. You have been a great help!


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

LastOutlaw said:


> Those pumps look much like the 12 volt flojet pump I'm using on my ecotemp shower. So, I need to set up my well pump to pump directly to an elevated tank on poles above the wellhead.


Yes, exactly!

What is your terrain like? Hills or no? House in valley or on hilltop?

I have a cabin in a valley completely obscured by trees. My water supply (for the time being) is two 275 gallon IBC totes inside and old single-wide trailer house on top of a hill, behind a bunch of trees, about 75' from the road. I have about 40' drop from "the ol' trailer on the hill", down about 600 feet (using cheap plastic lawn sprinkler line) to the cabin. I refill this tank hauling water with a 315 gallon (2500lbs) IBC tote on a trailer.

I use a wood fired water heater... I've been lookin' at them propane-powered ecotemp units. Been kind of scared to buy one since "on demand" water heaters are finicky little buggers and I ain't sure how the Chinese ones hold up.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

Divide the height of the column of water by 2.31 = P.S.I. at the base of the column.

What he say?

If the water tank is full and the top of the water tank is 100 feet above the water faucet. 100 feet / 2.31 = 43.3 P.S.I. of water pressure at the faucet.

Don't confuse P.S.I. with flow. A garden hose with a water pressure of 43 P.S.I. will allow more flow (a bucket will fill faster) without a spray nozzle then with a spray nozzle on the end of the hose.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

a lot of people forget that a submersible pump has to lift the water column from the top of static depth to ground level AND pressurize the water system, 
If you have to move water under less than ideal power conditions removing the pressure in the system first can save a fair bit of load. 

Anything not main stream requires thinking outside the box. most "professionals" have trouble with that.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

LastOutlaw said:


> OK, I see now. I'm going to need an elevated tank for sure. ....


Or use a ground based pressurized well tank.

A elevated water tank would be a better solution (IMHO). A tank large enough for 1 or 2 days worth of drinking water would keep the water fresher and minimize the start/stop time of the generator. Perhaps a smaller solar/battery powered pump could keep the water circulating so the tank and lines don't freeze during cold spells.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

TheLazyL said:


> A tank large enough for 1 or 2 days worth of drinking water would keep the water fresher and minimize the start/stop time of the generator.


I'm pretty anal-retentive with my "_generator *run plan*_"

I only plan to run for 1-2 hours a day, MAX. The first load is always the largest, smaller loads can be added once the biggest is "up & running".

For instance: make sure the well pump will *not* cycle off....but make sure there is NO RESTRICTION if it runs non-stop, either. Open every valve you have ... and fill every tank you have ... with every hose available for the 1-2 hours it will run. get the maximum amount out you can, in the shortest amount of time you can to save fuel.

Once the well pump is started, go ahead and add things like a small air compressor (air your tires), an electric flour mill, hand mixer, blender, drill, deep freezer, battery charger.... etc. etc - - whatever you need to make work so that the next time you fire the generator 22-23 hours from now, you'll have all the stuff you need working and ready so you don't need to start the generator again.



TheLazyL said:


> Perhaps a smaller solar/battery powered pump could keep the water circulating so the tank and lines don't freeze don't cold spells.


Not a bad idea.... Or make a tank from concrete, or an earthen berm lined with black plastic. Use the heat from the earth to your advantage if you can. I've even seen folks store water in root cellars.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

Then there is the Ram pump that can be used to pressure a water pressure tank when connected to a gravity feed system, it uses the water hammer effect to give more pressure than would otherwise be obtained without an electrical pump.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

There are a myriad of ways to accomplish this and the best for you is going to be site specific. 

Viking has what I consider to be the best setup with an elevated cistern fed by a spring. No electricity is needed and if you are in a cold climate then an insulated shed can be built around it. The ground may provide adequate warmth.

TheLazyL has a good idea with the pressure tank. This would give a limited amount of water but multiple tanks could help greatly. An expandable system like this set up in the basement might be the ticket especially in a cold area. I would prefer a single pressure tank and a cistern. The larger the pressure tank the less often the pump will need to run. This will mean less power usage and reduced wear on the electric motor.

I have built and/or lived with a number of cisterns. Just to toss out another idea for you, you might consider a rain catchment system with a cistern under the house or buried next to it. If it is warm enough an above ground cistern works well. A 110V shallow well pump and/or a 12V pump, as described by Cowboyhermit, combined with a pressure tank can provide your domestic water. This will provide you with rain water most of the year, if you have any rain to catch. In dry times the well could be used to add to the cistern. 

With the fridge, freezer, washer, pump, and battery charging being the main loads these items can be operated in any combination to get the best efficiency out of your generator. 

A water ram works great if you have a stream with adequate drop and water flow as the water ram pumps only a fraction of the water and loses the rest back into the stream. The weight of the lost water pushes the pumped water up hill or to wherever you wish, within the capacity of the system.


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

LincTex said:


> Yes, exactly!
> 
> What is your terrain like? Hills or no? House in valley or on hilltop?


My cabin sits on top of the ridge. I wish it was a bit below the hilltop for numerous reasons but that's where it was when I bought the land. I'm guessing I won't have a lot of water pressure as I probably won't get he storage tank much above 10 to 15 feet higher than the cabin but any flow is better than none. 
I'm much like you as far as genset running. I run it as little as possible. Right now I recharge a battery bank off of a honda eu200i and an iota charger and run other items that normally don't run due to larger draws at that time as well. I will be buying a larger 240 volt genset soon to run the well pump only and at other times as needed for larger draw items such as welder or major shop equipment. As for the ecotemp...I really like it but yes it can be a bit temperamental and there is a learning curve to it. I have to say though it is really nice to just turn it on and have a hot shower any time I want. When i first got the cabin and the ecotemp I had it set up as a temporary outdoor shower. I enjoyed it outdoors until I got in it one afternoon to cool off after working and heard a loud buzz at my feet. I stepped quickly back out of the shower area as I realized I was sharing it with a 4 foot rattler that was drinking from the puddle left from my morning shower. My timeline for an indoor shower stall was quickly moved up. Getting back to the ecotemp... I bought the cheaper model ( about $130.00) and have had a couple of issues with it. The shower hose blew up on me and they quickly sent me a new one. The next problem I had was with ignition but it turned out to be a faulty regulator on the line. I will say that if you have a problem under warranty expect to troubleshoot it yourself with their guidance rather than sending the unit in. That seems to be their policy.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

LastOutlaw said:


> I will be buying a larger 240 volt genset soon to run the well pump only and at other times as needed for larger draw items such as welder or major shop equipment. .


See if you can get one really cheap with a gummed up fuel system from sitting unused. I often get used 5,000-8,000 watt machines for less than $200 in pristine condition 'cause the fuel system is toast. I can convert one to run on propane for less than $100 and then sell them for a nice profit. I always keep a few gasoline ones around as well... just now the price of aftermarket carbs has come down enough to make this feasible. At any given time I have close to a dozen generators.



LastOutlaw said:


> As for the ecotemp...I bought the cheaper model (about $130.00) and have had a couple of issues with it. The shower hose blew up on me and they quickly sent me a new one. The next problem I had was with ignition but it turned out to be a faulty regulator on the line. I will say that if you have a problem under warranty expect to troubleshoot it yourself with their guidance rather than sending the unit in. That seems to be their policy.


Roger that. I thought about just making something similar from a new car heater core I have lying around. Still wouldn't mind one "already made" from time to time.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

LastOutlaw said:


> My cabin sits on top of the ridge. I wish it was a bit below the hilltop for numerous reasons but that's where it was when I bought the land. I'm guessing I won't have a lot of water pressure as I probably won't get he storage tank much above 10 to 15 feet higher than the cabin but any flow is better than none.


You might want to think about building a "bath house" or Sauna farther down the ridge. That way, what little water you use up at the cabin (Washing dishes, brushing hands and teeth) will be so little, pressure won't matter.


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

LincTex said:


> Roger that. I thought about just making something similar from a new car heater core I have lying around. Still wouldn't mind one "already made" from time to time.


If you would like I can take the covers off of mine when I'm there next and shoot some pics of the system design. There isnt a lot to it. A small heater core type of thing and 3 electronic ignitors and a few propane pilot light looking items.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

LastOutlaw said:


> If you would like I can take the covers off of mine when I'm there next and shoot some pics of the system design. There isnt a lot to it. A small heater core type of thing and 3 electronic ignitors and a few propane pilot light looking items.


I've seen similar pictures... That's why I thought :"Heck, I'll just build a vertical sheetmetal duct around a heater core and place it over a propane space heater"


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

Not sure that would work... the burners in this thing are right up against the tubing of the heater core type gizmo. Not sure your plan would generate enough heat to heat the water quick enough considering the speed that the water flows through. might be worth experimenting with though.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

LastOutlaw said:


> Not sure that would work... the burners in this thing are right up against the tubing of the heater core type gizmo..


I've got enough crap around to come up with something. A burner from a gas grill is about the right size!


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## HardCider (Dec 13, 2013)

Lots of good info. I'm in the process of deciding what system to go with right now myself. Local well company says I should have a well depth of about 190 ft. and the static water depth is probably going to end up around 35 ft. I'm looking at the Bison deep well hand pump and the Simple pump. Farm is off grid. Bison seems way more beefy but the Simple pump can easily be converted later to a solar powered pump and seems to require less force to pump. Without having a ton of money, I'll probably have the casing installed and install the hand pump later. Then add on. I have a 30x40 metal roof barn I can capture rain water with. Maybe build a small water tower also ( property is relatively flat).


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

HardCider said:


> Lots of good info. I'm in the process of deciding what system to go with right now myself. Local well company says I should have a well depth of about 190 ft. and the static water depth is probably going to end up around 35 ft. I'm looking at the Bison deep well hand pump and the Simple pump. Farm is off grid. Bison seems way more beefy but the Simple pump can easily be converted later to a solar powered pump and seems to require less force to pump. Without having a ton of money, I'll probably have the casing installed and install the hand pump later. Then add on. I have a 30x40 metal roof barn I can capture rain water with. Maybe build a small water tower also ( property is relatively flat).


A 12 VDC pump to fill the tower? Float switch in the tower to shut off the pump when full. Gravity feed to the barn. Add a battery or two later with a solar charging controller.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

There are ways to attach a 12 volt powered gear-reduction motor to any "piston-style" water well pump.

I can't make any promises on the speed at which they pump - but it is possible.

Seen this?
http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_waterpumping.html


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## HardCider (Dec 13, 2013)

No, I was thinking about raising a tank 8-10 ft to hold rain water from the barn roof but I'm not sure it would really accomplish much other than gravity flow to a conventional toilet and sink


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

HardCider said:


> No, I was thinking about raising a tank 8-10 ft to hold rain water from the barn roof but I'm not sure it would really accomplish much other than gravity flow to a conventional toilet and sink


I don't see a problem if it meets your needs. You could always build a small water tower and fill the tower with a 12 volt pump....

...or the alternative is to just use the pump as needed to pump from a ground level tank up to whatever faucet you need.

The first is gravity operated and the pump only fills the elevated tank and nothing more, the second option requires the pump to be used anytime you need water. Either way, you are still pumping the same exact number of gallons.


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