# Living off financial grid



## phxrising

Has anyone gotten off the financial grid? I don't have a mortgage, and am paying down what debt I have quite quickly. I'm thinking of going off the credit grid entirely..any thoughts? Is this feasible? Have any of y'all done this? The only negative besides convenience I can think of is travel and car rental, but my husband has a card for that.


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## Caribou

The trick on the cards is to pay them off every month. If the cash is not in the bank then the purchase does not go on the card. I learned that lesson the hard way.

I've gone to the bank for both of the homes that I purchased. I paid both off early. Remember, a double payment is double the principal not double the payment. For example, Your payment is $1,000 and of that the principal is $100 while the interest is $900. Eleven hundred is a double payment. This is far more effective early in the mortgage than later.

Sounds like you're doing great.


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## mosquitomountainman

It's very difficult to just drop out of sight completely. In today's computerized record keeping you'd have to forego all internet purchases, and any orders delivered to your house or anything ordered under your name. Also do away with any grocery store "cards" or giving your telephone number for identification purposes or when they're used by the merchant to track your purchases (even cash ones). (Cabelas is the worst offender here.)

It's almost impossible to "leave no trace" in today's society. Plus, when you go on a cash basis only your credit score will be "zero" and no one will want to loan to you. You might not think that's a big deal but it can bite you in places you don't expect. We finally got a gas company credit card to establish a line of credit in case we ever need it. We've done cash/debit card only for years.

We also pick up old discarded grocery store cards and use them as our own. That way any records of purchases there are going on someone else's record yet we can still use the card for gasoline discounts for purchases at the grocery stores that sell gasoline.

We really don't buy a lot of groceries anymore anyway. We mostly live on what we grow/hunt/forage (and barter for) on our own.


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## backlash

You can get off the credit grid but getting off the financial grid would be very difficult in my opinion.
Very few jobs will pay you cash and the government uses direct deposit for almost everything.
You can withdraw all your money every month and pay cash so that will eliminate the paper trail you leave.
We are almost off the credit card grid now.
We have made an effort to use cash whenever we can to reduce our exposure to fraud.
Somethings we have to use a CC so we can't get completely dark, but we do pay the card off every month.



> Plus, when you go on a cash basis only your credit score will be "zero" and no one will want to loan to you


Something else to remember is insurance companies use your credit score to set the rate on your insurance policies.
Home, life and auto.
If your credit score is low you will pay more for insurance.
My homeowners insurance went up because the insurance company listed my daughter as the policy holder and her score was low. She didn't even live at home.
They said it was a paperwork error and they corrected it and refunded the money but it still ticked me off.


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## Caribou

MMM I use store cards that I get under an assumed name. In fact it is time to get new cards. 

I don't use credit cards over the net. Has anyone used a prepaid card? I'm not talking about a debit card that is attached to a bank account. More and more places are refusing to take phone orders.


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## phxrising

Great ideas folks, thanks! I am an American living in England, but I still have a US bank account and a couple credit cards. All of our utilities are under both my husband's and my names as is our insurance as well. I think off the credit grid may be a more feasible idea.


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## Gians

phxrising said:


> Great ideas folks, thanks! I am an American living in England, but I still have a US bank account and a couple credit cards. All of our utilities are under both my husband's and my names as is our insurance as well. I think off the credit grid may be a more feasible idea.


We've had our card for over 40yrs and 99.9% of the time, pay it off every month. Only have the one card so it's easy to track. FWIW Clark Howard had some advice if you're thinking of closing your cards down completely .

http://www.clarkhoward.com/news/cla...you-should-never-shut-down-line-credit/nFpDW/

"Do not close the old accounts! Thirty percent of your credit score is based on your available credit.

So let's say you have a credit card with a $10,000 limit. Then you get a new card that has the same limit. If you keep both the old one and the new one open, instead of shutting down the old one, you now have available credit of $20,000, instead of just $10,000. That extra $10,000 in available credit that you have sitting there untapped can really boost your credit score.

The only exception to this rule is if you're talking about an old card that has a significant annual fee. In that case, I recommend you close the old card after you get your new card."


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## Geek999

What are you actually trying to achieve? If your goal is to be debt free, then there is no harm in having a card that you pay off each month as a convenience. If your goal is to not leave a paper trail for some form of authorities to follow, then you need to give up the convenience of any form of check or card purchases and go 100% cash. That also implies giving up any Internet purchases, etc. Using cash to pay the rent, utilities, etc. gets to be a real PITA.

Be clear with yourself what you are trying to achieve.


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## Tirediron

Caribou said:


> MMM I use store cards that I get under an assumed name. In fact it is time to get new cards.
> 
> I don't use credit cards over the net. Has anyone used a prepaid card? I'm not talking about a debit card that is attached to a bank account. More and more places are refusing to take phone orders.


we have used prepaid cards, over the net, it seems to work, although some times you have to call the help desk to get the system to accept the payment, because prepaids have a different number pattern.


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## goshengirl

I have not done it. For a couple decades I've carried very little cash on me - a holdover from my days of living in New Orleans. When I lived there, I was robbed so many times. I learned: when your cash is stolen, you don't get it back, but when your credit card is stolen you can shut it down with a phone call and don't pay for unauthorized purchases.

We pay the balance off each month, so there are no interest fees. And we get the 'cash back' benefit as well. Plus, I do a lot of online shopping. For all those reasons, we won't give up our credit card (we just use one). 

That said, if your goal is to fly under the radar (so to speak), I can see the attraction. Kudos to you - go for it! 


Caribou, I try to use gift cards when paying online if I can. My grocery store gives bonus points for buying gift cards, and I use those points towards $ off at the gas pump. I figure it's a win-win - I pay less for gas, and I don't input my credit card on some website. But I can't get a gift card for every place I shop.


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## cowboyhermit

goshengirl said:


> But I can't get a gift card for every place I shop.


Well, you kind of can with the pre-paid credit cards if you want, they don't accept them everywhere but the visa gift cards for example work most places online. Sure they are tracked but if you buy them cash there need not be anything tying them to your info.


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## Quills

I wouldn't be without my credit card, and so long as it's used correctly, it can be a benefit to you, rather than a liability.


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## Sentry18

I am not anywhere near being off the financial grid, but we do not use credit cards, take out loans, use store credit, etc. At least 90% of all our purchases are done in cash, the other < 10% are via debit card or bank draft / money order. We have a checking account for our debit cards, online bill pay and direct deposit but we have not had any check blanks in a decade. I could not give a darn about any credit scores or the like. Our intention is not to be invisible but to not allow our money to become part of someone else's ridiculous and excessive profit margin. We work hard for our money and I don't have any desire to watch the bank or anyone else siphon it off with interest and fees. We make payments to ourselves as our own financial lender. About 12-15 more payments into our automotive savings account and we will have enough money to buy a new car. No interest, no banks, no lenders, no fees. Many car dealers who need a quick influx of cash will give amazing discounts if you walk in and tell them that you're looking to purchase a slightly used vehicle without financing.


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## phxrising

cowboyhermit said:


> Well, you kind of can with the pre-paid credit cards if you want, they don't accept them everywhere but the visa gift cards for example work most places online.


We have several of these kinds of cards in the UK. Some even come with bank details so an employer can load wages onto them. They do have small transaction fees, but some you only need to take cash to a Post Office and they'll load the card for you, so you don't need a bank account. Most I've researched allow you to load up to £5k which is about $7,500.

Investigating money cards to load cash on for travel is what got me interested in the first place, along with massively paying off debt. I've googled a bit about living without a bank account, or off the credit grid, and it can be done--but like another poster said, it depends on your goal. 
I threw it out there for discussion because I think it's an interesting idea worth hearing y'all's 2 cents worth on.


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## Quills

Is it even possible to book a hotel room or flight without a credit card any more? DH travels a lot for work, and I travel to see my family as often as I can -- I don't think we could do that without a credit card. I like the bonus points program that allows me to buy travel, services, or products. We've purchased bicycles for our family from them, and a canoe -- and we took the whole family to Europe once with those points.

Credit cards are not a bad thing if you use them properly. Of course, the banks and credit companies make money off of them if you don't, and they're banking on that, but if you only use them to purchase what you would purchase anyhow, and have the money in your account to do so, they can be very convenient.

We have bought new cars with financing -- but more often than not, we get 0% -- we have also done the "save until you've got it" method, and bought with cash -- you get a better deal with cash, but sometimes to EARN money, you have to have a reliable vehicle, too. We have no mortgage, because we didn't see the sense in paying two or three times what a house was worth to live in something we couldn't afford -- we bought a much more modest home than the bank told us we could afford, paid it off as quickly as possible, and then, when real estate went through the roof several years ago, we sold it and bought a farm that had been sitting empty for 25 years for cash and did the work on the house as we could.

Credit isn't a bad thing -- but you have to realize what it is -- it's not something that magically allows you to afford things you otherwise couldn't; it's a tool, just like a chequebook or a debit card.


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## Sentry18

There is psychological phenomenon called coupling. It has to do with the association in our mind about the item we purchase and the immediate or delayed payment of that item. When we spend cash the brain receptors fire as if in pain or suffering a loss. Yet when we swipe a card the exact opposite areas of the brain are stimulated. Some people feel nothing and others actually feel pleasure. It's much easier for us to walk out of the store with only what we need or nothing at all if I have to spend cold hard cash on it. It's also much easier for most people to throw lots of extras in the cart if they don't have to feel the loss. The entire lending, marketing, retail and commercial industries are based on these and other psychological consistencies.


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## Quills

I agree, Sentry, that the banking industry trades on that -- but the fact is, only you control your spending, and only the person doing the swiping has control over whether they do it or not. People get into a lot of trouble with credit cards, but it's important that we make the distinction that it's the PEOPLE getting in trouble with credit, not CREDIT getting people in trouble. We tend to dismiss the responsibility of the person, and that, to me, is a slippery slope.


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## Sentry18

I agree. The same way that I think drug addicts should be responsible / accountable for the choices that they make. But that does not mitigate the responsibility of those who manufacture and distribute the drugs. They should be held responsible/accountable too. The credit / lending system is designed on the same lines. To greatly encourage people to engage in activities which are essentially harmful to most people under the guise of short term euphoria. But just like taking drugs, that should be a personal choice. Like I said before, I work way too hard for my money to give a percentage away every month to the bank. I much prefer them having to pay me every month.


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## mosquitomountainman

I personally believe that there is culpability on both sides. People are in charge of their spending and if they aren't they should pay the penalty.

However, I thought it was ridiculous that we bailed out the big banks for their poor business decisions. Used to be (and still is for the little guy) that businesses who managed poorly simply went belly-up. Now if you are "big" enough you can get the government to bail you out (while giving the top dogs big bonuses as well!).

Of course as always it's you and me who are forking over the money for their failures.

Regarding credit cards specifically, can you imagine what a banker from the 1940's would say to bank executive who proposed to offer unsecured loans to virtually everyone who walks in off the street? He'd be right too ... they should be tarred and feathered!

The other truth is that we all pay for that stupidity as well.


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## Geek999

mosquitomountainman said:


> I personally believe that there is culpability on both sides. People are in charge of their spending and if they aren't they should pay the penalty.
> 
> However, I thought it was ridiculous that we bailed out the big banks for their poor business decisions. Used to be (and still is for the little guy) that businesses who managed poorly simply went belly-up. Now if you are "big" enough you can get the government to bail you out (while giving the top dogs big bonuses as well!).
> 
> Of course as always it's you and me who are forking over the money for their failures.
> 
> Regarding credit cards specifically, can you imagine what a banker from the 1940's would say to bank executive who proposed to offer unsecured loans to virtually everyone who walks in off the street? He'd be right too ... they should be tarred and feathered!
> 
> The other truth is that we all pay for that stupidity as well.


One more time: TARP was not a bailout. It was extortion. The government made money on the program by essentially stealing a chunk of each of the big banks when the market tanked due to government housing policy, then sold the stakes back at a significant profit.


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## BillS

I'm sure there are a lot of people living off the financial grid. You just get a job at a junkyard or a restaurant that's willing to pay you in cash. You stay in a dive hotel where you pay by the week under an assumed name. You take the city bus everywhere or you ride your bike. You pay cash for everything. 

FYI, when I used to do small business accounting we had clients that skimmed money from their businesses and paid employees in cash. Anywhere from 2%-5% of small businesses do that.


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## Hooch

The last few years its been my goal to not participate in the ever more corrupted financial system that has become the normal way of daily business by way of getting into debt, using credit etc. 
I paid off my card, only keeping it for emergencies untill I had a good savings to use instead. I paid off my truck early, I burned my checks n paid all bills except one locally in cash. Any others I used a money order, which was only a few a year. Postal money orders are can be tracked n youll get a refund if it doesnt make its destination too...so its pretty easy and safe. 
Online purchases ive used the visa vinalla card with no issues yet....or if on amazon get a gift card. Ive used the visa one to secure a hotel once so...
The place I made a offer on im paying with cash, I plan on not using banks or credit if possible as soon as I get into my new place. Store cards ive used a fake name for years. If possible im going to try n continue to not be apart of the corrupt financial system weve been brainwashed to believe is good for us. 
It believe it only reinforces our slavery...screw them..
Gold is the currency of kings, Silver is the currency of gentleman, barter is the money of peasants, debt is the money of slaves...

Someone said something like that..


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## Geek999

As most of you know I work as a consultant to financial services firms. The products and services available from financial services firms, e.g. Credit cards, can be used responsibly or irresponsibly. If you use a debt product irresponsibly, while another customer uses it responsibly, then a corrupt financial system isn't the problem.

Any time you use a debt product, you should be very sure of your ability to repay on time. If you aren't sure of your ability to repay, don't take on the debt.


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## readytogo

*Living off financial grid is easy*

Living off financial grid is easy if you applied yourselves to it and learn a few things, like living within your income after savings and bill paying, cooking your meals at home vs. eating out or saving for an occasional night out ,lay away is back or saved for whatever big item you need(NEED)not want, two different thighs, the main ingredient here is to be happy with your life and your needs, been greedy can get you in trouble fast, take a good look at your life and home, do you really need a new coffee maker or fry pan, how many pairs of shoes are really needed, buying with a credit card is for fools if you don`t have the money to pay for it, and if you have the money why used the card, you take the risk of having the numbers stolen anyway, getting a P.O from the retailer and sending a M.O or check is just as easy and no interest or numbers to steal. I guess what I`m trying to said is that is not hard to be careful with money but is easy to be a fool.


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## phxrising

A quick update.........3....2...1...

I'M DEBT FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## cllowe

Congrats. I have 4 years to go till house is done. Can't wait. Especially since I will be 40 then. Great bday present to myself.


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## Caribou

phxrising said:


> A quick update.........3....2...1...
> 
> I'M DEBT FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Congratulations! That is so cool. Thanks for reminding me how good it felt.

Have you considered the next step? Hey, we're preppers, there's always a next step.


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## Caribou

phxrising said:


> A quick update.........3....2...1...
> 
> I'M DEBT FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


One last question, "how are you doing?"


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## phxrising

Caribou said:


> One last question, "how are you doing?"


I'm doing great!. I haven't figured out the next step yet. I've not been debt free since I was 18, and that is 27 years ago! It really hasn't hit me yet that I don't owe anything besides cost of living bills like food, electric, gas, etc.

I will say, I had a substantial savings and was knocking debt from 0% balance transfer card to card for years. I rationalized that because I could afford the payment and wasn't paying interest, I should stockpile cash. Awhile ago I started throwing extra at it. Finally, I was just sick and tired of it altogether, made a plan on paper, and it took me about a week to get the guts to pay it off entirely. Well, in case anyone out there is doing what I did, don't. It's not worth it. It's really psychological (the stockpiling cash bit and rationalizing).

First of all, you pay fees for these transfers. Second, interest or not, the money is owed and it looms over your head every day. Also, I made sure I kept enough in the bank to sleep at night and cover 12 months' living expenses.

I can't tell you enough what freedom the feeling is. :2thumb:


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## tleeh1

And now that stockpile will grow unencumbered -- how cool is that?


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## phxrising

Does anyone have a recommendation on what the best prepaid money cards in the USA are? Is there one you use that you like?


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## LastOutlaw

Caribou said:


> Congratulations! That is so cool. Thanks for reminding me how good it felt.
> 
> Have you considered the next step? Hey, we're preppers, there's always a next step.


Hmmm. the next step...if you are already prepped I would guess is to become self sufficient. 
Your property is paid for so short of taxes they can't take it from you in the event of a financial crash. So...it seems to reason that the next step is to be able to feed yourself without needing others.


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## phxrising

LastOutlaw said:


> Hmmm. the next step...if you are already prepped I would guess is to become self sufficient.
> Your property is paid for so short of taxes they can't take it from you in the event of a financial crash. So...it seems to reason that the next step is to be able to feed yourself without needing others.


Actually I don't own property. I live in central London in a small flat. The goal for retirement is to come back to the States and buy a house outright cash. I just realized typing that, that is the next step...get that house cash going.


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