# conflicting views, what to do?



## mamak (Nov 28, 2012)

I've been reading through a lot of different posts. Sone on what to do and some on what not to do and I've got a question.

Everyone talks about either bugging-in or bugging-out but regardless of where you are when SHTF in the winter months (in certain areas) you are going to need to stay warm. Lots of preppers have a fireplace, wood stove, whatever, to do just that. I've seen a lot of posts that the smoke from your location is a big come and get me sign. So, what do you propose? 

Again, along that same idea, preppers are investing in solar panels and alternative sources of energy. I was thinking "great". Then I see some comments about lights on in that home or hearing a generator running is again a big I'm really stupid flag. 

Maybe the answer is obvious but I'm new and I have a family with 4 children. Since I'm still in the planning stage, I'm looking for all different ideas. Of course, making some mistakes are inevitable but I'd like to make as few as possible. 

What to do, what to do?


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

Do some research into rocket mass heaters. They can be built by hand fairly easily and supposedly burn hot enough that they dont really emit much smoke (if any). They also burn so efficiently that they require much less wood than a fireplace or even a traditional wood stove. This is something I am interested in looking into myself. I bet some others on this forum would have more to offer on this subject.

Here are some threads that deal with these rocket stoves:

http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f16/rocket-mass-heater-14898/

http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f35/heating-14131/

http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f2/rocket-stove-fuel-13933/


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

Here is a good site for information on these:

http://www.richsoil.com/rocket-stove-mass-heater.jsp


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## cnsper (Sep 20, 2012)

Basically you have to do what makes you comfortable. I personally don't care if my chimney smokes a little. The drier the wood the less smoke you will have also.


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## AuroraHawk (Sep 12, 2012)

Blackout curtains will eliminate the lights being seen at night. I am going to look into http://www.firecrest-fireplaces.com/Products-Russian.htm for heat, hot water and some baking needs.


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

There are always going to be some things that are not ideal. I think its going to be highly situational as to how much risk it really represents.

The hungrier people are, the more likely they are to come find out why they smell bacon cooking and where it's coming from. So I think you're right when you're looking at various things that can give you away. Light discipline, noise, smells - both smoke and cooking, activity, what they can see of your house and family from where they are watching... all of that combined, and then better or worse for you depending on the exact nature of what's happened and where you are. 

In the context of me bugging in, there's not going to be a lot of geographical or weather isolation for me to rely on, unless this is all precipitated by massive flooding or earthquakes of the size that my region is not supposed to be able to generate (we're only supposed to get high 6's or maybe a 7 at worst) So for me, there's no snow or flooded creeks/streams/rivers that I can rely on to isolate me from those who didnt get ready prior to whatever the emergency is. Sucks, but that's the hand I'm dealt so I'm gonna run with it.

The bigger and farther reaching the problem is, the more I plan to turn turtle and not do anything that will draw undue attention until at least the first round of chaos is over. I will rehydrate with warm water instead of cooking outside with my BBQ, I will not need (thankfully!) to have a fire for heat so if it happens in the winter I'll dress warm and that will have to do.

The conventional wisdom says that most people have 1-3 days of food in their house, and that's your window of time to make sure you are NOT standing out like a beacon on a hill. Just low key and not giving anything up to prying eyes, because they will be looking around, nervous... "what if this keeps going?" 

After that, because I live in a city of 100,000 I think it's going to get really noisy really fast when people start settling scores or go cruising to see what's out there for dinner.

It really depends on the nature of the emergency, but if you look at the difficulty that storms or regional wildfires present even when everything else is just ducky in the rest of the country, if the problem is national or global, the response from the Gov't will be non-existent and that is going to push a lot of people over the edge. 

They are simply too used to being provided for, and life without the reliance on turning a switch for light or driving to the grocery store for food is something they have no concept of how to handle, much less being told that "sure, there's food, but your money isn't worth very much now, so you need a wheelbarrow full of those $100 to buy a loaf of bread, how many do you have?".


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## mamak (Nov 28, 2012)

thanks everyone, this gives me some things to think about and to research. I appreciate your thoughts.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

A generator can be quieted significantly by installing an automotive muffler on it. With the right combination you can make it so quiet you can hear the mechanical noises it makes from the internal engine parts. You can also run it in an insulated or sound proof shed. Putting carpeting or styrofoam under it to help dampen vibrations will help also. If you run it inside a building be sure there is adequate ventilation. Don't run it in your house! With a generator you can power an electric heater although running a genny 24/7 gets expensive. It's not a long term solution but could get you by for a week or so if the fuel holds out.

Blackout curtians for the light and/or only use interior rooms with no windows. That's for any kind of light source.

Candles, kerosene, presurized lanterns (Coleman) and/or propane lights also give off heat. Again, be careful of ventilation. If you're going to use any live heat source my advice is to purchase a CO detector for every occupied room.

You can get heat from a cook stove if the propane or natural gas is still available.

I'd forget solar for heat. The electrical requirements are too high and that many panels would be very expensive and very obvious.

Alcohol burners give some heat and the flames are practically invisible and oderless. Just remember that cooking food is easy to smell. You'll need to stock up lots of alcohol for fuel.

Wood can burn smoke free if you keep the fire hot and use dry wood. Even invisible wood smoke/exhaust can be smelled from long distances though in the right circumstances.

You can still get catalytic heaters that use white gas or propane and wick type kerosene heaters. Again, stock up on fuel.

In a short term emergency consider stocking up on food that doesn't need to be cooked (or refrigerated). Might be a good time for peanut butter and jelly, spam and other canned meats and jerky, MRE's, granola bars (they're actually good if you spread enough peanut butter and chocloate chips on them!), etc. These will save fuel for heating purposes, water for clean-up afterwards, and also time.

If you're talking long term the best thing is to be well armed and part of a group of people working together to provide mutual security.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

The simplest thing to suggest is to get you to seriously look at what would be most likely to impact your lifestyle where you live right now and build a safety-net for those situations. Setup your living area in such a way that you have easy access to emergency supplies - flash-lights, oil-lamps, LED-security-lights, propane campstoves, food, water ... secondary heating systems, etc.

Your home is your primary location, you should be able to keep yourself safe there the longest. But, sometimes situations beyond your control show up and you have to leave your house behind - that is where Bugging Out comes into play. For some, bugging out is the first choice, some it is the last choice and some, it isn't a choice. Those during Katrina in NewOrleans who left, BuggedOut (or evacuated) to safer places. Some went in motorhomes, some went with a truck-n-trailer, some took their car and a tent and some just went to the shelters. For you, with four children, I would suggest a motorhome or truck-n-trailer (van and trailer) would be the best kind of BugOutVehicle (BOV) - learn to random-camp with your gear and you would be golden.

Everyone has different plans, there isn't any plan that is better than the next because we all have different needs. Don't make one plan and stick to it - make a dozen different plans ahead of time and then test them all in all weather conditions - from that - you can fine-tune the plans and come up with something better. Also remember, as the children age, the plans will have to change to reflect where they are in their life .... 


:goodluck:


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

mamak said:


> ...winter months (in certain areas) you are going to need to stay warm.... So, what do you propose? ...


Draft free basement room. Lots of clothes, blankets, sleeping bags and closeness to keep warm.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Many also say they will throw trash, clothes, etc out on the front lawn so their house looks like it was already looted. Others say they will spread dead looters around their front yards. Low key, hunkered down, inconspicuous is the answer for most folks.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

I'm a big believer in kerosene heaters and cooking stoves. You can buy the cooking stoves here:

http://www.stpaulmercantile.com/

Kerosene heaters aren't as nice as propane heaters but storing kerosene is a lot safer and takes up a lot less space. Kerosene weighs about 6.4 lbs per gallon so a 55 gallon barrel of kerosene weighs about 350 lbs. Think about how much space 350 lbs of propane would take up. All you'd need is one tank to leak and your whole house could go off like a bomb. If you have a fire place you can leave the flue open for ventilation and nobody will know that you're heating your home.

I bought 3 kerosene heaters there were the same make and model. I bought this one:

http://www.fleetfarm.com/mff/detail/dyna-glo-23-000-btu-kerosene-heater/0000000006924

I also bought this one but the flame tends to get too high and it's difficult to get it to burn the right way. Don't get this one:

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...rd=kerosene+heater&storeId=10051#.ULk1w9uF9AM


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

I plan on cooking food but keeping the windows closed. In warm weather we'll still have to cook indoors to avoid giving off cooking odors. The only windows we'll have open will be our upstairs windows and even then it will only be at night. We'll have to close them again before sunrise.


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

If you're in the planning stages, then you should give some serious thought to whole house heating via a Masonry Heater. You burn your load of wood once per day, the wood burns so hot that there is little smoke residue and if you really want to minimize the chance of giving your location away, simply burn the load of wood before sunrise. Unlike metal wood stoves, you don't get a stove which responds instantly to the heat and then cools, so by burning early in the morning or late in the evening, the heat isn't wasted. The heat goes into the mass of bricks or stones and then is slowly released over the course of a day, hence the one burning per day being all that is required to heat a 1,5000-2,000 square foot home.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

I've got to remember some of the advice given here.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

There is also a link to a hybrid stove in the enery forum, it uses a normal wood heater, then has a thermal mass chimeny.


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## fedorthedog (Apr 14, 2011)

I plan to light the local slash piles off one at a time to hide my smoke. the joys of living in timber land. Then I may off the odd explorer looking for the source.


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## thenance007 (Oct 8, 2012)

+1 on kerosene heaters. I've picked up several on Craigslist for $20 - $40. I prefer the smaller, rectangular ones with the removable fuel tank over the tall round ones you have to move outside to fill. The rectangular ones are usually around 8-9,000 BTU whereas the round ones are usually twice that. I can use the smaller one in my basement to warm the whole house as heat rises, and one tank, less than a gallon, burns about 18 hours. When it was 6 degrees for a week, keeping it going kept me from ever having to switch my heat pump to auxiliary heat, and the floors were nice and comfy. Get extra wicks from Miles Stair, who also has lots of good info at his website: www.milesstair.com


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## supersixone (Dec 6, 2012)

so much good info on this site!!


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## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

Carefully evaluate your place of residence with regard to possible threats. If there is a high population density, that means there will be a lot of needy folks around with their hands out for help. If so, consider moving to a more self reliant area with fewer people. 

Many today think it is not possible/feasible for them to move. It may be so for some, but it really depends on HOW BAD YOU WANT TO. Not all, but most of the reasons for staying in or near cities are not NEEDS, but CONVENIENCES. Think hard about this.

Out of sight, out of mind, for those smoke signals and visible solar panels you are concerned about. So, think about how to make them not visible. The best way is to not have people looking for them because there are no people around. 

Even better is having a few people around, and knowing them ALL, by being an integral part of a small community. You won't make it by yourself for very long. The "lone wolf survivor" is a Hollywood myth that needs to be put to rest permanently. Communities are going to have to work together. Much better to get acquainted NOW and establish mutual trust and cooperation. Thus, you eliminate the problem.


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## DJgang (Apr 10, 2011)

Wow, how overwhelming of a thread. 

start where you can right now to feel some peace....a kerosene heater or buddy propane will do that right now.

It takes time to get it all, so you start with what you can do. It will take time to put in a wood stove or build a rocket mass heater, but if shtf today and you have a kerosene, that would be better than nothing!


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## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

+1 Yep. Do what you can now. Then, form a long term plan ASAP, 'cuz, if you don't know where you're going, any old road will take you there....


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

Since you're still in the planning stages, here is another heating system you may want to consider - geothermal heat pump. You can get 5x the heat from this system than you can from an electric baseboard system with the same amount of electricity.

Combine this system with radiant tube heating embedded in your floors and your heating efficiency increases because the heat first warms your feet and this makes people more comfortable thus allowing the room temperature to drop by a few degrees while maintaining equal comfort level.

If you embed the radiant tubes into a 1.5" concrete layer in your floors then your efficiency increases even more in that the concrete can store the heat and disperse it across a wider area than is the case with stapled up radiant tubes that are placed underneath your subfloor. Secondly, because of the heat retention in the concrete flooring the actual time that heating is applied isn't so critical, meaning that there isn't an immediate gain of heat once you turn on your heat pump. This means that you can heat during the day and not at night, or vice versa, and the floor retains that heat.

Now you can supply the electricity via wind or solar and run the pumps which move the water from the ground to the heat pump during the day and charge up your heat stored in the concrete flooring and then let the heating system go dormant at night, or not in the case of wind.

If you're connected to grid power then the efficiency of the system at delivering heat for little electricity input will be a big bonus. The drawback is that this is an expensive system to put in place.

I actually like this type of system because it can create a modern convenience in your household even during a time of societal collapse in that the electricity required to keep this system functioning is pretty modest and can be generated on site. This frees you up from having to expend any effort to heat your home - no wood cutting, no cleaning the fireplace, no searching around for kerosene, alcohol, propane, no attempts at distilling your own alcohol from plant matter that you've grown. The trade-off is that you have to spend more money to get this system established in your home while society is still functioning than would be the case with the alternatives.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

Where we live almost everyone burns wood for heat and it's not all that hard to just throw a soup or stew pot on the stove for cooking while we're at it.


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## munik (Dec 3, 2012)

I have a propane ventless stove. I ran pipe in from tank outside. One 80lb tank lasts me about a winter and half just using to heat the living room so as not to heat the whole house. Works great. It is my backup heat source. I highly recommend it.


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## kappydell (Nov 27, 2011)

LazyL has it right on the basement room, and keeping warm. Good clothing in a draft-free room will help; check out the winter survival informtion in military manuals for good ideas. Your house pipes will freeze when it gets to 40 degrees or less if you have no heat, so you would need to drain the system and put in RV antifreeze. A draft free, insulated room can be kept warm enough so you will not freeze to death (IF PROPERLY CLOTHED), and good clothing, warm sleeping bags, etc are a must. You will be wearing coats, jats, gloves inside, and even to bed. A smaller area is easier to keep heat in, so partition off large and unused rooms with tarps, quilts, etc to keep from losing the warmer air of your dwelling area. A low ceiling (1 foot or so higher than the tallest person) will keep any warm air from rising away from you, so you may even want to rig a 'tent' roof with a tarp or quilt to lower a high one. You will need to cook outside - you do not want to asphyxiate because you wanted warmth or a hot meal. When you cook, boil up some water for a thermos or two. Hot cocoa is very warming and the calories help you keep warm too. If it is cold enough, you can use one of the unheated rooms as a walk-in refrigerator! Put frozen foods in a clean box outside in the unheated garage if it is cold enough and you have one, or bury in a snow drift somewhere you can keep an eye on it to chase away varmints who may be looking for food. Keep food that you do not want to freeze in your living area.

As far as lighting, solar is nice, just remember you don't have to 'light the night' with bright and numerous lights in multiple places. One person I know of recommended using solar 12 volt lights, a marine battery-box backup, with amber LED bulbs in the lamps to simulate the color of firelight (Look in automotive section for yellow tail-lights). In that way you could run enough lighting to keep from tripping, but still look like everyone else on the block using firelight or candles to see by. I thought his reasoning was sound advice for living gray (avoiding attention) during a 'situation'. Just light up one room - the one you are conserving heat in. You don't need much light. How late will you be up - you will be tired from physical labor required to secure food & water & security during the day light hours and may well go to bed when the sun does (except for the person pulling night watch, if you find it necessary).

Many people forget that civilizations did exist before electricity, central heating, and night-time lighting. Their ways may be useful during rugged times.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

I hope everyone has king sized beds. Cause the kids will be sleeping with mommy and daddy!


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## DJgang (Apr 10, 2011)

Attachment parenting happened years ago before it was vogue.


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## pixieduster (Mar 28, 2012)

mosquitomountainman said:


> A generator can be quieted significantly by installing an automotive muffler on it. With the right combination you can make it so quiet you can hear the mechanical noises it makes from the internal engine parts. You can also run it in an insulated or sound proof shed. Putting carpeting or styrofoam under it to help dampen vibrations will help also. If you run it inside a building be sure there is adequate ventilation. Don't run it in your house! With a generator you can power an electric heater although running a genny 24/7 gets expensive. It's not a long term solution but could get you by for a week or so if the fuel holds out.
> 
> Blackout curtians for the light and/or only use interior rooms with no windows. That's for any kind of light source.
> 
> ...


Muffler on a generator!! Gosh I love you. : ) that's my next project..


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

DJgang said:


> Attachment parenting happened years ago before it was vogue.


Roo has her own room and bed were she sleeps. We tried having her in our room the first week home after she was born but the cats were climbing into her basket. They felt displaced with the moses basket in our bed.

I have no problem letting her sleep with us as long as she sleeps in her own bed when it warms up.


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## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

I know a guy who ran his generator exhaust through a truck muffler, then into a barrel of water. The pipe is perforated to make the exhaust bubbles smaller. All you can hear is a fizzy sound a few feet away. He has the genny in a shed with bales of straw around it. Anybody more than a few feet away can't hear much of anything.


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## mamak (Nov 28, 2012)

All of this is great! Thank you all so much. I'm noticing there are two routes - zero power, zero tech or implementing something that needs a power source that can be high tech and costly. Since I have zero skills in this area I'm going to plan for zero power, zero tech. If I go, say solar, and it is comprimised in any way, I won't be able to fix it. Also, because I think at some point the grid will be out (or at least certain areas). So if I purchase a generator I believe it will only be a matter of time before my fuel runs out (it's not like I can run to the gas station and fill up if there is an outage for whatever senario) and I'll have no choice. If I take the money I invested in that and put it towards learning the skills needed to be self sustaining I feel I will have gained more. Let's say a disaster is temporary - I can teach things to my children for them to have for their lifetime. I have no problem heading back in time and I feel more comfortable using low tech tools and ways. As much as I love some of the ideas you all passed along I have to chuckle and say Well, wanna come over and set it up for me? lol I have no clue how do to some of this stuff. And it's not that I can't learn.....I know myself and my limitations.....trying to teach me how an engine works and how to fix it is really just going to be a waste of time. I'm more of a hand-crank and root cellar kinda girl. High tech for me is my vaccuum sealer. 

But, my dream plan is to one day get the heck out of suburbia and into a little cozy home down a dirt road. When that happens I will definitely want a rocket mass heater or the masonry heater. In the mean time, I'll work on my plan, work on skills, teach my kids and continue prepping.


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