# Need help with firearm choice



## Willdabeast

Being in the UK guns are harder to come by, however I will be able to justify getting rifle or shotgun for hunting. My question to those who are more au fait with firearms (I.e the Americans haha ) what is more useful; a shotgun of any kind as long as it doesn't store more than 3 rounds at a time. Or a .22 rimfire rifle. I'm thinking rifle as shotguns are not rifled and so are shorter range. Any help would be greatly appreciated ! Thanks guys 


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## Dakine

not sure how long this post will last before it's banished, because firearms talk is out of the code allowed by the providers that the forum buys services from.

Shotgun slugs are rifled so that they fire in a smooth barrel.

I guess it really depends what you want it for... I shoot my .22lr out past 150 yards all the time, but at that range it's not bringing a lot of energy, it's only a 36 grain bullet. 12 gauge slugs still bring the love at 100 yards, and there are models that are very accurate at that range.

Anyway, back to do what do you want it for? if you want game hunting, the shotgun can do that, both birds, rabbits and large game with buckshot or slugs, and you can use it for trap and skeet competitions which are a lot of fun.

If you also want it for self defense, the shotgun is the clear winner in my opinion.

Good luck! and I hope you get to see the answers before the post gets moved


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## Willdabeast

Ahh yes helpful answer It was more the range of a .22 for hunting but I think I shall opt for a shotgun, didn't know firearm talk was banned, can I remove it and save them the trouble ?


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## Dakine

I dont know if we can delete entire threads, I've never tried that. You could edit the post and the title maybe...


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## Willdabeast

No it's not letting me oh well



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## LincTex

Hopefully it will stay on topic as a "Hunting" thread only - and that is allowed.

I will throw my hat in the ring with a .22 for many reasons.

.22LR ammo is easy to store in quantity and weight.

5qty - #6 shot 12 gauge shells weighs 195 grams (39g each)

20 rnds of .22LR is only 64 grams... so 100 rds = 320 grams.

Wow! That is a BIG difference in "bangs per kilogram"!!

Do you want to lug around 10, 20 or more shotgun shells? Or just a few .22 rounds?

A Benelli 12 gauge weighs about 9 pounds, while a Mossberg 702 Plinkster weigh a little under 4 lbs. The same Benelli is almost 4 feet long!! The little Mossberg is barely over 2 feet long.

To me, the advantages are clear.


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## Willdabeast

Hmm weight would be an issue to, I think rifles seem to be better all rounders as you could hit a meal from a longer distance. It seems like personal preference really


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## HardCider

If I was only going to have 1 gun for hunting, it would be a 12 gauge. From tiny snipe and partridge all the way up to deer and also could do duty as a home defense tool. Get a second barrel(rifled) and scope and I have dropped deer sized game out at a 150 yds. Pumps are very reliable and an excellent hunting tool. Now having said that, I have also taken snipe,small game, foxes, and many deer with nothing more than a recurve bow and it's silent


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## Geek999

Firearms are not terribly interchangeable. Here in the US, where a wider assortment of firearms is available you can get some real debates going over what is "best". The problem is that what is best for one purpose may not be best for another.

My personal opinion is that there are a minimum of 4 classes of firearm (others may have their own views) 1) .22 rimfire, good for target shooting and small game, e.g. squirrels, 2) shotgun, good for birds, small game, and other purposes out to 75-100 yards, 3) center fire rifle, good for larger game and longer distance shooting, 4) handgun, good for very close range defense and probably irrelevant in the UK.

For a prepper in the US, I'd say you need at least one of each, with ammo, spare parts, tools, cleaning supplies, ad nauseam just to be minimally equipped. Depending on the size of your group you would need multiples.

As a result, I would say you need both the .22 and the shotgun, and you're still short of what you really need.

At least you don't need to incur the expense we face here.


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## Willdabeast

Out of the guns I've shot I think I lean towards shotguns. I can't get a rifled barrel for it though as then it's a firearm not a shotgun licence and is a different type of gun by law  


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## Willdabeast

Geek Having any gun leaves you amazingly overpowering 8/10 people here, I think a shotgun is probably also the easiest to justify by law for hunting game


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## Boomy

For purely hunting the .22 has killed more deer in my local woods than anyone will ever know (very illegal but it happens), so for critter hunting purposes that would be the way to go. 
Now for critter hunting and "zombie":sssh: hunting in one gun I would go shotgun all the way. Far more stopping power on a quicker shot. Even a wee little .410 can shoot slugs all the way down to bird shotand the ammo is fairly light. My dad had a .410 bolt and a Remington 870 12 gauge. I could outshoot my self using the .410 on clay pigeons everytime.


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## hiwall

Here I would pick a 22 rifle hands down over any shotgun but I'm not in the UK.


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## Geek999

Willdabeast said:


> Geek Having any gun leaves you amazingly overpowering 8/10 people here, I think a shotgun is probably also the easiest to justify by law for hunting game
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using Survival Forum


Absolutely, but you did request an American perspective. If you want defense against 8 to 10 assailants, you have a different need than discussed to this point. Assume a few misses and assume you need to hit each assailant twice. You now need 30 shots. That's an AR. Good luck in UK. If you can get a .22 semi-auto like a 10/22 with magazines, that's probably your answer. A shotgun with 3 shots leaves you 5-7 shots short even if you don't miss.

You might want to consider migration.


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## Dakine

Geek999 said:


> Absolutely, but you did request an American perspective. If you want defense against 8 to 10 assailants, you have a different need than discussed to this point. Assume a few misses and assume you need to hit each assailant twice. You now need 30 shots. That's an AR. Good luck in UK. If you can get a .22 semi-auto like a 10/22 with magazines, that's probably your answer. A shotgun with 3 shots leaves you 5-7 shots short even if you don't miss.
> 
> You might want to consider migration.


I'm not sure if he meant taking on 8-10... uhhhh this is a hunting thread... He's hunting 8 or 10 deer, all of them, at the same time!!! 

I read that as having *ANY* gun whatsover is more than 80% of their population has, and that is very easy to believe given their laws.


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## LincTex

Boomy said:


> For purely hunting the .22 has killed .....


...every animal in North America!!

Don't go hunting Polar or Grizzly bears with one, though.

Deer are very hard to kill with a .22 Possible? Yes, but not practical.

I don't think I'll be killing many deer after SHTF. Others will do that in the first few weeks and then they will be extinct.

I worry about feral dogs... both now - (they are a genuine problem, currently) and in the future - a .22 works well with feral dogs. And in large packs you need many rounds.


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## Dakine

are air rifles regulated or banned in the UK? There are air rifles here that are .357 and above! and yeah, they use a scuba tank for air charges, but...

Here's an example in 9mm, and it's using a very compact air tank, 20 useful shots per charge. Pretty cool!!! spendy, but cool, and maybe very legal where firearms are outlawed?

http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Evanix_Conquest_9mm_Air_Rifle/2749#


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## Geek999

LincTex said:


> ...every animal in North America!!
> 
> Don't go hunting Polar or Grizzly bears with one, though.
> 
> Deer are very hard to kill with a .22 Possible? Yes, but not practical.
> 
> I don't think I'll be killing many deer after SHTF. Others will do that in the first few weeks and then they will be extinct.
> 
> I worry about feral dogs... both now - (they are a genuine problem, currently) and in the future - a .22 works well with feral dogs. And in large packs you need many rounds.


I don't think there are any bears in the UK, other than perhaps in a zoo.


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## Geek999

Dakine said:


> I'm not sure if he meant taking on 8-10... uhhhh this is a hunting thread... He's hunting 8 or 10 deer, all of them, at the same time!!!
> 
> I read that as having *ANY* gun whatsover is more than 80% of their population has, and that is very easy to believe given their laws.


Well, if he only wants 1 deer, definitely the shotgun.  The rest of the deer can be left for others.

You're probably right, but in a SHTF situation, I suspect you don't need to worry about the 80%, or more, of folks that don't have guns.


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## Coastal

LincTex said:


> Deer are very hard to kill with a .22 Possible? Yes, but not practical.


or ethical.

I'm playing with a Marlin 45-70 Lever action...my new favorite toy! Reloading for it is pretty fun and there are endless recipes.


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## cedarguy

If its for hunting and a .22 or a shotgun are my only options I believe it would be the shotgun for me. Slugs for the bigger game and shot shells for the smaller. I like to think I'm a decent shot with either but for a running rabbit or a pheasant blasting out of a brush pile the shotgun just seems to be the better choice.


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## GrinnanBarrett

How much ammunition will the government in your area allow you to keep on hand? I have friends in the UK who have to store their guns in Belgium at "Shooting Clubs".


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## Viking

Shotgun is a good choice, a lot depends of ammo availability as well and if it's like anything around here .22 LR is next to impossible to get unless one sits around like a vulture at the stores with the knowledge of when a shipment comes in and you bully your way into line to get the few boxes available.


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## TheLazyL

Would the UK permit an over and under? 

A 22 rifle caliber top barrel and 410 shotgun on the bottom barrel would give you the best of both worlds for hunting purposes.


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## Magus

Willdabeast said:


> Being in the UK guns are harder to come by, however I will be able to justify getting rifle or shotgun for hunting. My question to those who are more au fait with firearms (I.e the Americans haha ) what is more useful; a shotgun of any kind as long as it doesn't store more than 3 rounds at a time. Or a .22 rimfire rifle. I'm thinking rifle as shotguns are not rifled and so are shorter range. Any help would be greatly appreciated ! Thanks guys
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using Survival Forum


Howdy.
I would get an over and under and then purchase several sub caliber adapters, thus adding to its versatility and ammunition availability.

http://www.mcace.com/shotguninserts.htm


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## Geek999

TheLazyL said:


> Would the UK permit an over and under?
> 
> A 22 rifle caliber top barrel and 410 shotgun on the bottom barrel would give you the best of both worlds for hunting purposes.


Excellent choice and there are some relatively inexpensive models available.


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## Wanderer0101

Willdabeast said:


> Being in the UK guns are harder to come by, however I will be able to justify getting rifle or shotgun for hunting. My question to those who are more au fait with firearms (I.e the Americans haha ) what is more useful; a shotgun of any kind as long as it doesn't store more than 3 rounds at a time. Or a .22 rimfire rifle. I'm thinking rifle as shotguns are not rifled and so are shorter range. Any help would be greatly appreciated ! Thanks guys
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using Survival Forum


Having been through the process I can say it seemed considerably easier to get a shotgun certificate than a firearms certificate. Don't know if that impacts your decision or not.


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## Willdabeast

Wanderer I think I am going to go shotgun for many reasons, they're also easier to justify, you don't really need 20 bullets to kill a pidgeon or a pheasant haha


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## Kodeman

TheLazyL said:


> Would the UK permit an over and under?
> 
> A 22 rifle caliber top barrel and 410 shotgun on the bottom barrel would give you the best of both worlds for hunting purposes.


I completely agree with the over/under, I learned to shoot and hunt with one many years ago. It is very versatile as is and more so if you take Magus' suggestion on caliber adapters.


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## Dakine

I got the 20g sleeves for my over/under 12g and they work great! I dont know how the restrictions are on ammo in the UK but if you have a .410 barrel, it will shoot .45acp bullets! I'm not sure about .45 long colt, although that's an uncommon round even here in the US so I'd be surprised to learn if there's more than 2 boxes total of it in the entire UK.

*Correction*: It's the .45LC or Long Colt that you can shoot in .410 shotty's. Thanks to Admiral for clearing that up!


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## Sentry18

Strictly provided as information in reference to hunting:

This particular item could be the perfect hunting companion as it allows you to scrounge for whatever ammunition is available. You can hunt a variety of different animals with this rifle. A quick web search will provide more information about this hunting implement. You know, as it pertains to hunting.

Chiappa M6 X-caliber survival rifle



> X-CALIBER
> 
> Item Number: CF500.124
> 
> X -Caliber® is designed for use in any condition and with any ammunition available. Originally designed with two calibers, a rifled .22 LR and a smooth bore .12 GA -, this rifle can fire up to 12 different calibers thanks to the 8 steel adapters supplied. In addition to the two original gauges, adapters allow you to shoot 8 pistol calibers ( .380 , 9 mm , .357Mag/.38SP , .40 S & W, .44 Mag, .45 ACP , .410/.45colt ) and two shotgun calibers (410 ga, 20ga), combining the flexibility of a shotgun and the power of a rifled gun.


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## AdmiralD7S

Dakine said:


> ... if you have a .410 barrel, it will shoot .45acp bullets! I'm not sure about .45 long colt,,.


Are you sure that's right? 45acp has a notched rim, while 45LC (like the .410) has that flange for a rim. My Taurus judge is 410/45LC, not 45auto, so I'm thinking you have those reversed.

Sent from my iPhone usi


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## Dakine

AdmiralD7S said:


> Are you sure that's right? 45acp has a notched rim, while 45LC (like the .410) has that flange for a rim. My Taurus judge is 410/45LC, not 45auto, so I'm thinking you have those reversed.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone usi


You're right, my bad! it's .45LC


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## AdmiralD7S

Dakine said:


> You're right, my bad! it's .45LC


No worries! in this case, the worst that happens is someone hears a click as they watch an entire bullet with casing fall out the end of their barrel


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## Wanderer0101

Gentlemen, I can tell you for sure that if you put a rifled insert into a smoothbore shotgun barrel in the UK it immediately becomes illegal unless you have a firearms certificate. Same thing with any kind of combo gun that includes a rifled barrel. Great idea but it'll get you thrown in jail there. They're very serious about this stuff. When I left the UK they tracked me down somehow even though I was seven thousand miles away just to make sure of how I'd disposed of my shotgun.

The one thing you can buy there with no problem is a silencer. No permit, no nothing, it's like a loaf of bread.


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## rugster

Dakine said:


> not sure how long this post will last before it's banished, because firearms talk is out of the code allowed by the providers that the forum buys services from.


Yikes! That's too bad


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## HamiltonFelix

I wonder how it happened that a prep site is restricted on firearms discussions. Recent change by a PC provider? Maybe time to shop for another. This country has LOTS of firearms forums.

I was going to say that any 12 gauge shotgun is very versatile, then ask about a "shell shrinker" insert to fire .22 LR. But if that's a legal no-no in the UK, I guess I will just recommend a decent shotgun. Being in this country, it's hard for me to imagine not having both a shotgun and a .22 LR.


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## Viking

HamiltonFelix said:


> I wonder how it happened that a prep site is restricted on firearms discussions. Recent change by a PC provider? Maybe time to shop for another. This country has LOTS of firearms forums.
> 
> I was going to say that any 12 gauge shotgun is very versatile, then ask about a "shell shrinker" insert to fire .22 LR. But if that's a legal no-no in the UK, I guess I will just recommend a decent shotgun. Being in this country, it's hard for me to imagine not having both a shotgun and a .22 LR.


If you will look in the Homesteading Forum Section here you will see a Sub-forum Link to a Firearms Discussion Forum, it's a good site that I go to occasionally.


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## cowboyhermit

HamiltonFelix said:


> This country has LOTS of firearms forums.


I think that is the thing though, there is no shortage of places to discuss firearms on the internet, or politics, or religion. Not having the main focus on those things makes this forum a bit different from others.

Choosing between a shotgun and a .22 for me is like pulling teeth. I guess it would come down to how often it would be used. If you intend to use and practice on a regular basis a .22 is exponentially cheaper and easier on your arm to shoot. There isn't much you can't do with a .22, there are a lot of things that it is not great at of course.

IF this is still true;



Wanderer0101 said:


> The one thing you can buy there with no problem is a silencer. No permit, no nothing, it's like a loaf of bread.


Then that would be the deciding factor for sure, a good .22 rifle with a silencer is an impressive tool to say the least, preferably one with a decent magazine capacity. If you can get a combination that is sub-sonic a .22 is nearly silent and can be very accurate.

I have seen bulls over 2000lbs drop like a stone with a properly placed .22 to the brainstem and I have also helped track a buck over a mile that was shot with a .300 magnum.


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## Sentry18

By the way there is a gun related sub-forum here at PS, you just have to be a forum supporter to access it.


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## Fn/Form

If it's only small game, few larger game you can reasonably stalk and other rare uses over a long distance and/or time period, then a .22 is my choice.

If the intended application includes larger game a likely reality and urban use over short durations... then the shotgun wins out. Bird, slug, even cut shells. Best with ghost ring or rifle sights. I'm pretty sure some of my boxes of Brenneke products say Made in England. As far as slugs on the open market go I can't find better products. Suppressed, shorter barrel with a quality choke?

I do wonder if action type is restricted... pump and lever actions can be quick if semi-auto is not permitted. Due to similar restrictions some have shown up at U.S. fighting rifle courses alongside semi-autos.


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## LincTex

Fn/Form said:


> I do wonder if action type is restricted... pump and lever actions can be quick if semi-auto is not permitted. Due to similar restrictions some have shown up at U.S. fighting rifle courses alongside semi-autos.


Fastest:


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## Fn/Form

"Somebody give me a hug!"


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## Caribou

If those are your choices then I'd get both.

For me, my first purchase would be a shotgun. The different ammo available makes a shotgun an extremely flexible firearm. An ounce or more of lead V. 40Gr. makes it far more effective. Both can reach out to 150 meters but both are more effective under 100 meters.

A .22 is very effective especially with excellent shot placement. A 12ga is more effective even if shot placement is less than perfect.


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## Rooster1984

I would go with the shotgun. More ammo variety for hunting game large and small.


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## nightwing

look for a single shot with interchangeable barrels 
rifle 308 22lr 12 ga. not because they are better calibers or not but 
they are standards and will be available all the time by one means or another.
and a good semi 22LR side arm because sometimes you need a fast few to keep heads down 
and know your no one trick pony.
and small game is more available and if your loaded for bear 
your side arm will come in handy and if your at a longer range the long arm
in whatever suits the target.

a couple can be configured with as many calibers including BP


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## Ozarker

Willdabeast said:


> Being in the UK guns are harder to come by, however I will be able to justify getting rifle or shotgun for hunting. My question to those who are more au fait with firearms (I.e the Americans haha ) what is more useful; a shotgun of any kind as long as it doesn't store more than 3 rounds at a time. Or a .22 rimfire rifle. I'm thinking rifle as shotguns are not rifled and so are shorter range. Any help would be greatly appreciated ! Thanks guys
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using Survival Forum


I'd say some missed the fact that you're in the UK, you won't be getting an AR, unless you can justify that.......doubtful. Same with a pistol of any kind.

A shotgun would probably be the easiest to get a hold of legally, then a rifle, most hunt with a shotgun, not a .22 I'd say.

To say you need a .50 cal for bear won't be too believable either. Deer is probably big game where you are. You can take a deer easy enough with a slug, need to be more tactical as you might be with a bow. Don't fox hunters carry shotguns?

Get a 12 gauge shotgun! That works on all kinds of game you have there, it also works very well in any game you might get into for protection. Get an auto if you can That's what I used there for skeet tournaments) ,a pump is okay, but either one you can load in seconds.

A .22 is illegal to use on deer here, if you hit me with a .22, you'd just make me really ticked off!

The reason we have a Second Amendment was due to weapon restrictions in the Old World


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## Kodeman

. 

A .22 is illegal to use on deer here, if you hit me with a .22, you'd just make me really ticked off!



Ask Bobby Kennedy what a .22 can do!


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## LincTex

Ozarker said:


> A .22 is illegal to use on deer here, if you hit me with a .22, you'd just make me really ticked off!


Any decently placed .22LR shot is fatal on human beings.

You might not die if shot in the thigh or the forearm, but a direct heart shot will kill you - EASILY... Same with any major artery.

Every animal in the North American continent has been harvested with a .22LR.


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## TheLazyL

Kodeman said:


> .
> 
> ... if you hit me with a .22, you'd just make me really ticked off!...


That's a possibility in today's world.

In a EOTWAWKI world if a 22 didn't kill you outright it would in all probability by infection.


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## Caribou

Kodeman said:


> .
> 
> A .22 is illegal to use on deer here, if you hit me with a .22, you'd just make me really ticked off!
> 
> Ask Bobby Kennedy what a .22 can do!


Actually the .22 is quite a deadly round. The problem is that unless it is a perfect shot that a .22 may take a bit of time to kill. It is illegal for large game because of the high likelihood that the animal will get away from the hunter before it dies. Without perfect shot placement it is also an inhumane to way to hunt.

Often criminals that are shot with a .22 are found dead several blocks away. If they had used their energy to continue the attack rather than to run then the victim may have also been injured or killed. While far from the best defensive or hunting round out there, for larger game, it can do the job if you can do your part.


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## hashbrown

I don't know but Ozarker may be right, I bought a box of .22 awhile back that didn't have the power to work the action on a semi automatic. Hell, I think a good Carhartt jacket would have stopped them. Crappy ammo!


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## nightwing

If things are really bad the legality is not an issue

gardens are prime targets for deer and if the range is 25 meters the ear hole head on 
the flat portion between the eyes and horns from behind under the horns back 
of the skull.

I have always knew that 22 is just as deadly as any other cartridge recent 
videos on youtube shows that the military definition (the ability of the projectile to penetrate 1/2 in plywood) is capable of being a lethal strike.
If at 300 yards it can go through a FROZEN turkey or a ham with 4 layers of denim 
I think that is argument settled .

an AR15/M16 round is 22 caliber and they cross ballistics at around 100 yards for the 22LR
and 600 yards for the AR or there abouts.
anyone reading the side of the box should realize that 1.5 miles was placed there for a reason they just did not pull it out of thin air.
all that needs happen is pop the right artery and your all done.


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## GaryS

When butchering beef or hogs, we never used anything bigger than a .22, and the animal usually dropped instantly. However, a missed shot can be a real problem. I saw my dad shoot a large hog that moved its head at the last moment, and a wounded hog can be extremely dangerous. Dad used up the remaining rounds in the magazine, and the hog was still running around squealing and snapping at everything. Dad finally tackled the hog and slit its throat with his skinning knife. Guess that's one reason I quit hunting and raising my own meat. I've sort of lost my stomach for butchering.

That said, if limited to one firearm for survival, it would be a .22. The quality of ammo is indeed a big deal, so while I might buy cheap for plinking, nothing but the best goes into storage.


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## LincTex

hashbrown said:


> I bought a box of .22 awhile back that didn't have the power to work the action on a semi automatic.


What Brand? 
.... so I can avoid buying it! 

Believe it or not, I have had good luck with Russian Wolf .22LR
They even make Russian "match grade" .22LR ammo

I have some Aguila ammo made in south america, or mexico, or.... ?
It shoots really well but STINKS!!! Like ammonia something or other (some say smells like piss!). 
I love the smell from normal .22 ammo smoke, though.


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## nightwing

hashbrown said:


> I don't know but Ozarker may be right, I bought a box of .22 awhile back that didn't have the power to work the action on a semi automatic. Hell, I think a good Carhartt jacket would have stopped them. Crappy ammo!


LincTex is right

I would try to find a good high speed 1200 feet per second (FPS)
or better as of now it is spotty on finding 22 and expensive 
when the world was normal I only advised CCI high velocity 40 grain solid 
copper plated bullets

copper is a dry lubricant so your rifle will not gum up with wax 
hollow points are good but can be destructive at close range and waste meat.
CCI had a very good velocity deviation over other brands which equates
to good accuracy if a brand has a extreme spread of velocity from shot to 
shot your pattern will open up and the farther the worse it gets.
depth of wound on a solid is way deeper on game I think that is better 
for the ability to inflict a deep wound than a large superficial one 
this has been show in test in ballistic jell.
and last I have rarely in fact I cannot remember having a dud / failure to fire with CCI and some are 30 years old.

you will have to ask the many folks here as all I shoot is CCI high velocity
I have other 22's but if I am screwing around I shoot a paint can I have 
of shells I used for testing, I grab a couple of hand fulls and go across the road I found that if your stealthy and get in 15 yards you can hit a squirrel 
size target where depends on the ammo and all my stuff is sighted in with 
CCI and I do not change it so some dead reckoning is in play if I 
can sort some of the same out but it's a mess shorts longs long rifle 
hollow points low and high and ultra high velocity I some times can recognize them by the nose but that is a guess so I sort them on the table and see if I can get a group going just for fun.

If you can print out a ballistics table for the various brands 
or the brand your using it is a very good guide when shooting at distance 
if you can find a brand that works well and is accurate try to buy 
all you can in a case preferably as a unopened case is most likely the same lot number and they should all shoot the same out of your arm.
I am no brand snob if it works I would use it too hard to find now to get all picky.


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## Ozarker

Hey guys, I didn't mean to sound anti .22, I love the Rugger 6" barrel. Wish I still had the old AR7 with the floating stock, they say many aren't accurate, mine was fine. 

I went hunting with some Army buddies, they said we were going after cat squirrels, I thought it was like our red or fox squirrel. Everyone grabbed a shotgun, I chose the Rugger 22 and they got a big laugh out of that. 

One guy nailed the prey at about 30 yards in a tree, I looked at it and said "dang, that's just a baby!" he said no, that's how big these get! End of the day, I had the highest count bagged and mine weren't torn up, later on after cooking a few were spitting out shot too.

If I could only have one long gun, it would be a shotgun. 

During the cold war, the weapon of choice for an assassination was a .22 pistol with silencer, silencers were easy to fabricate, a shot just below the skull in the back of the neck or a temple shot and they were done. 

Yes, a .22 is or can be lethal, so can a slingshot, just ask Goliath. You can also protect yourself with your arms and hands from some close range shots and survive, that would really tick me off. And, I agree the ammo isn't what it use to be, I think I had some bad Winchester .22s. 

I got enough scenario battle stuff in the military so I don't go there and thus my quick comment about the .22. There is a time, place and situation for any gun.

Another aspect of the shotgun is the ammo, there are other uses for shells that can be rigged up and be effective and not many other uses for .22 ammo (without a lot of work). I won't go into such things as I'm aware that we have some here that would be like giving an Uzzi to an 8 year old, they don't need any ideas.

I do like .22s, bur if I can only have one I'd have to take the shotgun.


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