# Square Foot Gardening



## Davo45

Has anyone else tried Square Foot Gardening besides me? I'd never had a garden before 2 years ago, but decided to give it a try after my sister heard about Square Foot Gardening and told me about it. I researched it on the internet then bought the book @ Lowes. 

It cost a little at 1st to built the raised beds, buy the soil mix, etc., but it has been well worth it. With only 2 tomato plants last year I had more tomatoes than I could use from early June until the 1st frost in November. I had 12 Clemson spineless okra plants that were over 7' tall planted in 1'x8' made out of 1x6"'s. My family ate fresh okra throughout the summer and frozen okra in soups and stews through out fall and winter. I've had kale, green onions and Swiss chard throughout the year.

If you've never tried Square Foot Gardening I highly recommend you check it out.


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## worldengineer

Its actually quite popular with the members that have limited space. I have one large planter for gardening and a smaller one. Both are "experiments" to learn how to grow in limited space. 

All but those two planters is run in rows. It is easier to maintain for me, because of the larger space. This year my the biggest bed has radishes, lettuce, taters, patty pan squash,and jalapenos. The small one has green bell peppers, and more squash. 

I enjoy learning with the garden beds.


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## ComputerGuy

We do square foot gardening with 8 foot by 8 foot above ground gardening.


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## Nadja

Besides a raised bed garden, I am starting a bucket in a bucket garden right now. If all goes well, should be much better then the raised bed garden, and use much less water. I will keep you all posted. This is also something that looks to be fantastic for people living in apts etc.


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## *Andi

I bought a 4 X 4 raised bed yesterday ... for some of my herbs. Main reason to keep my son or hubby from mowing them down.  lol

Not sure if it would be called Square Foot Gardening or not ... :dunno:


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## Cahri

Davo45 said:


> Has anyone else tried Square Foot Gardening besides me? I'd never had a garden before 2 years ago, but decided to give it a try after my sister heard about Square Foot Gardening and told me about it. I researched it on the internet then bought the book @ Lowes.
> 
> It cost a little at 1st to built the raised beds, buy the soil mix, etc., but it has been well worth it. With only 2 tomato plants last year I had more tomatoes than I could use from early June until the 1st frost in November. I had 12 Clemson spineless okra plants that were over 7' tall planted in 1'x8' made out of 1x6"'s. My family ate fresh okra throughout the summer and frozen okra in soups and stews through out fall and winter. I've had kale, green onions and Swiss chard throughout the year.
> 
> If you've never tried Square Foot Gardening I highly recommend you check it out.


I have done it, and it is mostly successful. I still use some of the principles but not for everything. You just have to test it and see if it works for you


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## Kai22

I just read about square foot gardening yesterday! My property is fairly large, but there isn't one good large spot for a garden. We've decided we will have to put in several small gardens throughout the yard. The square foot gardening looks like a great idea! 

Now, if it would just stop snowing and frosting, I might be able to plant something outside...  for now, seedlings are taking over my kitchen/back porch/every free surface in my house....


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## BuggingIn

I've been converting to raised beds (started last year and am probably gonna need a couple more years to get the whole garden converted), but even before building the beds, I did a form of sfg. I have been very pleased with the yield compared to conventional rows.


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## Halfway

I have achieved very good results with this methodology. I am adding another bed this year for additional cucumbers.

I look for the highest efficiency and "Mel's mix" works very well and will last several years if you keep adding compost.

I will add additional calcium for the tomatoes this year. Tomatoes will stretch the limits of compost and they need the extra calc to prevent blossom end rot. With the wet summers we are having, it is a "must".

Best of success. It will pay you back a few times over!


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## lilmissy0740

Halfway- whjat do you add for calcium? Epson salt? Is that calcium? dah
I tried the method of starting seeds in vermiculite only and loved it. Except for peppers. Any ideas why?
Has anyone tried his method of staking tomatoes or have a good way of staking them besides posts at each one?


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## Cahri

lilmissy0740 said:


> Halfway- whjat do you add for calcium? Epson salt? Is that calcium? dah
> I tried the method of starting seeds in vermiculite only and loved it. Except for peppers. Any ideas why?
> Has anyone tried his method of staking tomatoes or have a good way of staking them besides posts at each one?


Oyster shells, egg shells, dolomitic lime, that sort of stuff for calcium, all organic. Fish meal, blood meal and bone meals for peppers, they love food and acidity around 6.5 and peat moss adds to good drainage. For tomatoes I group them around single tomato cage, works well for me


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## Halfway

lilmissy0740 said:


> Halfway- whjat do you add for calcium? Epson salt? Is that calcium? dah
> I tried the method of starting seeds in vermiculite only and loved it. Except for peppers. Any ideas why?
> Has anyone tried his method of staking tomatoes or have a good way of staking them besides posts at each one?


finely crushed egg shells in each hole and I'm gonna use Mater Magic for additional fertilizer this year. Last year went from extrememly wet to extremely hot and back again all summer long. I think they could have used the extra fertilizer, so this year I will give them a little help.


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## CulexPipiens

Halfway said:


> I think they could have used the extra fertilizer, so this year I will give them a little help.


I was at a short garden seminar this past weekend and someone asked the speaker about tomatoes. His advice was to fertlize when you first plant, then nothing until the first flowers appear. At that time give it another small dose and then that's it. His reasoning was to give the plant a boost to get it going, then to stress it a bit to cause it to fruit. When the flowers appear it's starting the fruit process again so give it another small boost. I haven't tried this method yet but am thinking of giving it a shot this year on some of the plants to have a comparison.


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## HoppeEL4

Had to do garden beds before we moved, we had a small backyard, with limited sun exposure. It works really well, and is efficient. We moved from the crowded suburbs to the country in late November, and are renting right now, a house in acreage. We are so excited to have something big, and open to the sun, and actually be able to grow a lot for ourselves, hope we are not over-doing it....so far the tilled bed is 100 square foot, I wanted more, but we'll see. I know with those raised beds, they can do well and produce a nice little crop, we did potatoes in it last year, and got about 50 pounds out of a 32 square foot bed.

Tomatoes do better in ground we found. We kept having problems with them drying out too fast, and it was hard to get the tomato cages to stand firmly without falling over, because if they do well, they are heavy plants. You can find pre-made 1x1 inch wood frame kits at garden centers for the tomatoes, and those are nice, but easily made, and much cheaper than the kits.


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## worldengineer

CulexPipiens said:


> I was at a short garden seminar this past weekend and someone asked the speaker about tomatoes. His advice was to fertlize when you first plant, then nothing until the first flowers appear. At that time give it another small dose and then that's it. His reasoning was to give the plant a boost to get it going, then to stress it a bit to cause it to fruit. When the flowers appear it's starting the fruit process again so give it another small boost. I haven't tried this method yet but am thinking of giving it a shot this year on some of the plants to have a comparison.


Be easy on the fertilizer when you first plant, otherwise you will burn the plant and kill it. That's basically how I grow maters in rows. A little when I start, then a small dose once they get going.

10-10-10 is good to use as it is not very powerful and won't burn a plant as easily.


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## goshengirl

I was really inspired by Mel's book. There's a lot of raised bed/intensive gardening in almost every homesteading book I've read, and I know many folks on this site practice that.

To me 'intensive gardening' is planting in raised beds and using the same plant spacing as Mel has in his book (if a plant can grow 1 foot apart in a row, it can grow 1 foot apart in all directions). And compost, compost, compost. I could be wrong, but to me that is the gist of 'intensive gardening.'

The things that make Mel's Square Foot Gardening unique are the things that we had to modify/go without, because the size of our garden makes it cost prohibitive. Mel has solidly construced box frames lined on the bottom with weed inhibitor fabric. He also starts with a perfect blend of topsoil, compost, peat moss and vermiculite that gets added into the bed, then yearly home-grown compost on top of that.

We've got two rows that are 72' x 4', one row that's 64' x 4', and two rows that are 60' x 4'. (That's phase I of our garden, we've got more in the works for phase II) With that much gardening space, there's no way we could afford to build boxes lined with weed fabric. Nor could we afford to create Mel's perfect soil mix. Instead, we're working with the native soil (we're working in what used to be a pasture, so it was naturally composted with manure years ago and is quite good soil), we've trucked in a bunch of topsoil, and we'll add in leaf compost we started last fall as well as peat moss. We won't have well-constructed box frames, but I'm picking up as many free wooden pallets as I can find on c-list and breaking them down for the wood. Our youngest son is also in charge of gathering rocks from the creek to use as a bed liner. 

It's great seeing what everyone else is doing in their gardens and the results they've had.


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## HoppeEL4

goshengirl, sounds like you have quite an operation going on. How long have you been at it? We just got started this year, the last where we lived in town, was terrible weather, and before that we did ok, could not use tomatoes fast enough. We are still learning, and are really hoping for corn this year, the last two, our first two really, we did not get anything (meaning they grew but simply did not produce a viable, edible cob of corn).

We tilled up and it looks like phenomenol soil. We PH tested, it says it is 6.0, and needs some nitrogen. The tiller had no problems breaking through once the sod was gone, and it is just enough that it holds together, but yet comes apart when you break it up. It once housed a field of blueberry plants, about 8 years ago, and has been sitting since, unused. I do think potatoes are going to love this soil, as well as other root vegetables. 

As well, we were lucky enough to have had a field behind us, part of the property, that was being used to house horses, and there is ample mulching material for fall, as well as what our chickens supply.


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## goshengirl

HopeEL4, we just got started this year, too. This time last year we were living in the 'burbs on a lot that was smaller than the pasture we're now turning into a garden.  We know it's a big bite to take all at once, but this is actually my non-prepping DH's desire, so I'm running with it! He grew up on a farm, so being able to garden makes him happy, and he loves the idea of being self-sufficient when it comes to food. 

The goal for us isn't so much to use as to store - canning/freezing/dehydrating/cellaring all of it (we already can/freeze/dehydrate a lot of non-home-grown stuff). We've also put in 11 fruit trees, and will be adding more, as well as nut trees. 

You mentioned corn - a decade and two houses ago we grew corn and did well with it, but then again we are in the corn belt. We'll be trying a number of varieties this year, to learn what grows best for us. I hope your endeavors work this year, too. Sounds like you have good soil to work with!


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## gypsysue

goshen, enjoy your corn while you're still in Ohio, and preserve as much as you can! If you get to make that move to your property in Montana, there goes the corn-growing! Even with short-season corn it's tough to grow here. I drool whenever I read you people in the corn belt talking about growing it! I'm planning to go all the way to Pennsylvania at the end of the summer to help horseman09 eat some of their sweet corn! 

I love hearing everyone's gardening stories, and about the things they've learned, either on their own or from books or classes! 

We've been doing intensive gardening for the last 7 years, right in the ground in our garden soil. We rotate where things are planted and add fresh compost each year. So far we've done well with it.

The main reason we started doing that is our climate is so cold that we have to cover things almost every night all summer. Planting things close together in blocks makes that easier to do. It isn't that we get frost every night, though we can get frost in any month. Even when it's 90 during the day, the nights drop to 40 or lower all summer, and those cold nights stunt growth and reduce harvest. Covering at night seems to make a lot of difference in yield.


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## goshengirl

gypsy, you let me know when your driving through Ohio, and I'll meet you at Lehman's with some corn to take back to MT.


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## HoppeEL4

gypsysue, we live about 35 miles from Mount Hood, and it is an established farming area, but we too have colder nights than most places in summer. Last summer was awful. It never really got to be summer, and we had one three day hot streak, but was not enough for anything to warm up and ripen, if it even barely grew.

goshengirl, guess you are in the "corn belt" there, and envy the ease with which corn grows there. Up here in the Northwest, it takes a herculean effort to get it to, plus finding the best variety. I was told gypsysue, that the early varieties are best in our chilly region, one local farmer told me "Bodacious". I bought "Candy Corn", it too is an early variety. Put it in last night, although I am anxious, the soil was still cool to the touch. We decided to do only four rows of 20 each, and just see how well, so we do not feel like we lost a lot if it does not do well.

Another issue is our region is in a cool streak. Farmers Almanac is very accurate and one person stated it says we certainly are, and may have a few more to go. 

Our only hope is it will be a good summer. We know the spot and soil is, so here's hopin'!:crossfinger:


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## HoppeEL4

BTW, I was told by a lady we know, who is a Master Gardener (OSU), she said they taught the old farmers rule about corn, how to tell it was doing well, the saying is "knee high by Fourth of July".


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## mrghostwalker

I use a modified Square Foot Gardening technique. 
I have several 4x18 raised beds which I divide into 4x4 squares. I use a lot of vertical growing (with great success). I also have regular plots depending on what I am trying to grow. I do grow pumpkin and squash but I let them run so I don't grow them in 4x4 squares..


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## gypsysue

Hoppe, I think that cold summer last year was spread over the whole northwest, so I guess we had a shared misery!  Hopefully it won't do that this year, though spring has sure been late in coming.

My Dad always said "Knee high by 4th of July" too. I grew up in Wisconsin and we had great sweet corn. I miss it here.

goshen, I'll take you up on that corn! Either way, we still plan on meeting you guys at Lehman's! When the time gets closer we'll figure out when is a good time for you. 

Our trip will take us from Montana across to Wisconsin, down through Indiana and over to the far east end of Pennsylvania, down into western Kentucky, west to SE Kansas, over to Colorado (Leadville), then back home to NW Montana. Yes, there are specific people at those locations that we planned our route around!

Anyone along that route or reasonably close that wants to meet somewhere and visit, let us know. We're talking between mid-August and Mid-September. Unless the SHTF or seems imminent.


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## HoppeEL4

Yes gypsysue, right now, it is raining again....Had a few gorgeous spring days, spent almost all of it outdoors, and now this...I know what can we expect living in NW Oregon?.... I have lived here ALL of my life, born and raised here, and know better. Sometimes the rain refuses to go away into early June, I just keep hoping, and praying, for less, and a good warm up soon this time around.


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## danerogers

HoppeEL4 said:


> Yes gypsysue, right now, it is raining again....


Hi Hoppe, I empathize with your cold, wet season last year. I'm in Corvallis. Regarding corn, I wanted to share with you that I've had great success by starting my corn in 72 cell Jiffy trays and usually set it out at about 3 inches tall around the end of May. I gave up growing sweet corn many years ago because I get it from a neighbor at 5 for 1$, plus, the raccoons made it almost impossible. Now I grow flint corn which I let fully dry and store as dry grain, and use for polenta and cornmeal. The extra time I get by growing corn "starts" - about 150 of them, gives it plenty of time to dry down before weather gets too wet in the fall. I suspect you are colder than I am here in Corvallis, but give the starts a try. I'll be starting mine this weekend.


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## gypsysue

We used to dry extra sweet corn and grind it for making cornbread. It sure made good cornbread, but then us "northerners" like sweet cornbread! When we lived in Kentucky the locals didn't care for the sweet cornbread. 

Gee, you Oregon people might want to consider growing rice, with all that rain! lol Hoppe, I hope you get some more of those gorgeous spring days --and then send them our way! 

That's a good idea, danerogers, starting the corn inside. It gets you a longer season, so to speak.


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## danerogers

A few years ago, a friend gave me a couple of big boxes of sweet corn. I blanched it, cut it from cobs, dried it, and packed it away in the garage. But it never made it back to the kitchen. Every time I went to the garage for something, I'd walk past those containers and take a hand full to snack on. It was so good. Needless to say, it didn't last long! 

I wish we could grow rice here in Oregon but it is a bit too cold. My wife is gluten intolerant and I want to learn what it takes to grow sufficient starches that easily store, like corn and potatoes, to meet her needs. Part of my prepping, is the gaining of that knowledge, and of course, to maintain a stash of locally adapted seeds! 

I've got a good idea -- "gorgeous spring days" for everyone!!


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## gypsysue

If you like "wild rice" you can grow it there, danerogers. They grow it in Minnesota, and it's REALLY cold there! We planted some around a marsh on our property a few years ago, more as a leave-it-alone, stealth-garden emergency patch of food. 

You should be able to get some from a health food store and plant it! 

Corn and potatoes should grow quite well where you are. Potatoes are easily propagated, but I'm not sure how hard it is to find heirloom or open-pollinated corn. It's been too long since I lived where we could grow it, other than attempts at playing around with hybrid "short season' Corn. 

Good luck. My husband has to avoid wheat products during hayfever season, and that's not easy unless you're cooking from scratch!


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## HoppeEL4

Wild rice may not be native here, and state of Oregon is pretty freaky about non-native grasses, especially aquatic ones. If they find the person who planted a non-native plant, which they could classify as invasive, they might go after them.

However, checking with OSU extension service for that info might be helpful, as we might have a native species that is pretty much equivelant and can be harvested.

All just a thought knowing the state here. However, I can bet if they could go after the botanist for introducing Himalayan Blackberry to this state, they'd do it (whoever it was is long gone, but not the thousands of acres of thickets of blackberries they left behind).

Danerogers, do you go up into the Cascades to pick blue hucks? I freeze them and use them in place of hybrid blueberries...make syrup with them and jam...


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## danerogers

Gypsy, I really like the idea of planting wild rice and leave alone as an "emergency patch of food". And wild rice is grown locally as I have purchased it the past when I find it in the market. However, Hoppe is EXACTLY correct about invasives. I have a seasonal stream on my 5 acres that might be suitable for wild rice, BUT, it would probably be overwhelmed with Blackberries as Hoppe indicated, but also things like Canary Grass and English Ivy. I'll be very careful about researching before introducing wild rice. If a wild rice could out compete the canary grass, it would be far to aggressive to release. I need to find the local w.r. farmer and see how it's done. 

Regarding open pollinated corn, I have a very special local resource that might be useful for you too. The author of a recently released book, "The Resilient Gardener", Carol Deppe, lives here in Corvallis. She is a Harvard Phd of biology and is dedicated to breeding open pollinated staple crops. Her book focuses on teaching what and how to grow, locally adaptable crops for troubled times. Fits right in with prepping! One of her goals for corn has been to breed in the ability to germinate in our all to frequently soggy, cold springs. I confess I'm not un-biased as I have volunteered to rework her website after her previous help abandoned the effort. Three years ago, I took a class from Carol about her previous book, "Breed Your Own Vegetable Varieties". She is a wealth of information on obtaining the skill of providing much of your own food on an ongoing basis - long after storage foods are exhausted. Good stuff!

No Hoppe, I have not picked the blue hucks except when hiking and camping and don't get to that very often. You must have some great picking spots to have enough to preserve - sounds yummy!


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## Jimmy24

Though I have a large traditional type garden, I have 4 boxes I have used for years. I started after Mel's 1st book. I build mine out of 2x10s. They are 4x8. I grow all my herbs, peppers, tomatoes, squash, cucumbers during the summer in them. Garlic, onions, broccoli, collard greens in the winter.

I use regular garden for potatoes, field peas, green beans, butter beans, corn, watermelon and okra. Kale, turnip greens and buckwheat in winter.

I love my gardening and always have. What I don't can or freeze goes to 2 different soup kitchens in town. They love it.

Glad so folks garden here.

Jimmy


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## gypsysue

Jimmy, you live in a great climate for gardening! I bet your can grow all kinds of stuff year round.

Hoppe, I didn't think about the wild rice being potentially an invasive species. Definitely something to check on. I'd gladly trade gallons of our Montana huckleberries for those delicious blackberries. In the late 80s we lived between Aberdeen and Olympia,Washington, and I'd pick tons of blackberries and can them. I keep saying I'm going back some year and pick them until my fingers fall off!


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## HoppeEL4

Dane, I am assuming they grow all up and down the higher elevations of the Cascades....I know they do by Mount Hood (we live just down the highway, about 35 miles from the mountain). Yes Dane, there are some prime spots for blue hucks up here, I still have some in the freezer from last year too. If ever picking, late August, early September, five gallons is supposedly the limit, which is really a lot. In fact Dane, one of the best spots is near Hood River, Oregon, and their harvest happens about the same time as the apples, so we drive the "Fruit Loop" from home (Highway 26 up to Highway 35, and back).

Gypsy.....I know Montana has them in abundance up high too, my grandmother lived in Kalispell and when coming through areas, we'd stop and picnic, and of course pick them (it has been a long time and cannot remember where we stopped). Funny you'd love access to the blackberries here, as to us, they are weeds and drive us crazy. Although the berries are good to use, the canes are actually invasive and since they are not a native species, they seem to have no natural checks to keep them under control, except the people who raise goats to eradicate them for a business! The Himalayan Blackberry has a lot of seeds, and has to be filtered out of the mix in order to be enjoyable. I have made the jam and taken out about 3/4 of the seeds.

Gypsy, here's a thought for you. Around here we have lot's of "outsiders" who have moved into the area (Portland). These are people who came from southern Cal, and east coast, and know nothing of blue hucks, and are into the wild and local foods. We have thought to get permits from Forest Service to pick more than our allotment and sell them. Although, it has to be done carefully, they are pretty perishable. My son had a woman come in where he works who said she would pay up to $5.00 a pound for local wild berries.......Can bet there are some out your way too. Make some cash and turn it into silver for the chance of you-know-what hitting the fan in the future.


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## Jimmy24

gypsysue said:


> Jimmy, you live in a great climate for gardening! I bet your can grow all kinds of stuff year round.


Gypsysue, I hate to say it, but after spending one year in Thane, Wyoming, I will always stay south. The growing season is so short and even then some things just don't do well.

Luckly you guys up there are blessed with wild foods and of course beautiful landscapes.

Jimmy


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## gypsysue

Jimmy, I'd love to live in a warmer climate! We spend the last half of the winter down south to escape our long, long winter! Summer gardening is a challenge up here in NW Montana because even in July and August when the daytime highs are in the 80s and 90s, it drops around 40 or colder at night. The cold nights are hard on plant growth and production.

I love Mississippi. I rode my bicycle through Missisippi last year on the Natches Trace, up through Tennessee and back down to Jackson to catch the train home (took the train to Hammond, LA for the start of my trip). Beautiful, beautiful place, and I love the people and the food! I felt safe everywhere except downtown Jackson! 

Hoppe, you're on the right track, there is money to be made picking the huckleberries here. It's a big deal to sell huckelberry products to tourists, so there are places in Kailspell (Jam makers, candy makers, soap makers, etc.) to sell them. They've paid as high as $35 a lb. in the last 5 years. Last year we picked 9 gallons.

I never minded the seeds of those Washington/Oregon blackberries! I thought they were delicious. We made jam, pies, and stirred berries into vanilla ice cream! Yum!


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## goshengirl

No kidding about those huckleberries! When we're in MT, my son and I LOVE the huckleberry soda, but man is it expensive! So this year I actually ordered and planted three huckleberry bushes here in OH, and I'm hoping to figure out how to make some at home, lol. So far, they're not looking like happy little bushes...


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## Emerald

goshengirl said:


> No kidding about those huckleberries! When we're in MT, my son and I LOVE the huckleberry soda, but man is it expensive! So this year I actually ordered and planted three huckleberry bushes here in OH, and I'm hoping to figure out how to make some at home, lol. So far, they're not looking like happy little bushes...


Check your soil's PH huckleberries and blueberries like it more on the acidic side. And they are slow growers so don't be discouraged about how tiny they are and how little they seem to grow the first few years.


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## Emerald

And on the topic of wild rice-they say that it hasn't been seen in our area for many years due to over harvesting and that mostly it is found farther north.. Well my secret is I've found it growing along our river and it seems to get thicker each year... Just by wading down a short ways from the landing one year I harvested about 3 cupfuls by hand. I am thinking that maybe this fall I will talk the hub's into taking me down the river in the canoe, using my drumsticks as knockers and maybe harvesting enuf for a few nice dinners for this coming Thanksgiving and Solstice dinners. I love wild rice in my turkey stuffing.


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## gypsysue

Emerald, that sounds like a cool way to harvest wild rice! Almost like the people of long ago did! What a great thing to have with turkey! Yum!

Goshen, are the huckleberries you ordered the same as Montana huckleberry plants? I've seen them in the Gurney catalog and wondered about those. The ones here are so particular about elevation and soil that people who have tried to transplant wild bushes to their yard haven't been successful. I'll be glad to bring you some huckleberries, fresh or dried, when we come, to trade for that sweet corn you promised me on another thread!


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## Ezmerelda

goshengirl said:


> The things that make Mel's Square Foot Gardening unique are the things that we had to modify/go without, because the size of our garden makes it cost prohibitive. Mel has solidly construced box frames lined on the bottom with weed inhibitor fabric. He also starts with a perfect blend of topsoil, compost, peat moss and vermiculite that gets added into the bed, then yearly home-grown compost on top of that.


I use old cardboard boxes broken out flat instead of weed cloth in the bottom of my beds (and in between them). I get them for free from the local furniture store, and they attract earth worms, which are VERY good for your soil.

I use my shredded junk mail (no shiny stuff) as mulch.

I have a friend who grows tomatoes year round in a green house. She feeds them a tonic of crushed egg shells, powdered milk, and Epsom salts. Apparently, the same plants keep producing fruit for her, season after season.

Because our ground is clay, clay and more clay, I just about have to do raised beds. The ground is like concrete in the summer, and mushy in the winter, and it would take a bigger machine than I can fit in my yard to break it up sufficiently to add the compost, manure, etc. it would take to actually be able to grow something.

So, SFG it a lifesaver for me!


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## gypsysue

Ezmerelda, how did you build the sides for your raised beds? The cardboard for the bottoms is a good idea!


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## Jimmy24

gypsysue said:


> Jimmy, I'd love to live in a warmer climate! We spend the last half of the winter down south to escape our long, long winter! Summer gardening is a challenge up here in NW Montana because even in July and August when the daytime highs are in the 80s and 90s, it drops around 40 or colder at night. The cold nights are hard on plant growth and production.
> 
> I love Mississippi. I rode my bicycle through Missisippi last year on the Natches Trace, up through Tennessee and back down to Jackson to catch the train home (took the train to Hammond, LA for the start of my trip). Beautiful, beautiful place, and I love the people and the food! *I felt safe everywhere except downtown Jackson! *Hoppe, you're on the right track, there is money to be made picking the huckleberries here. It's a big deal to sell huckelberry products to tourists, so there are places in Kailspell (Jam makers, candy makers, soap makers, etc.) to sell them. They've paid as high as $35 a lb. in the last 5 years. Last year we picked 9 gallons.
> 
> I never minded the seeds of those Washington/Oregon blackberries! I thought they were delicious. We made jam, pies, and stirred berries into vanilla ice cream! Yum!


I wish it was different, but alas, everywhere has there issues and Jackson can be a danderous place no doubt.:dunno:

So glad you enjoyed your bike trip.:congrat: Sounds like it was fun. Come back when you can!

Jimmy


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## goshengirl

Emerald, thanks for the info - I didn't know they like acidic soil, and they're definitely not getting it right now. Their size doesn't concern me, just their leaves turning funny colors and falling off... 

GypsySue, I'll gladly enjoy some dried huckleberries!  You just let me know how you'd like your corn.


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## gypsysue

Goshen, if you're a coffee drinker, save your grounds and sprinkle them around your blueberry or huckleberry bushes once in a while. They help with the acid balance of your soil. I've heard this is good for strawberry plants and plum trees, too.

We'll have to talk about that sweet corn. We're going to be traveling on our motorcycle (cheaper than our car, faster than a bicycle!), so I'd have to ship it home! Do you ever dry your sweet corn? That might be an option? I'll bring you some vacuum-sealed dried huckleberries. I'm not sure fresh ones would hold up on the trip. We'll be visiting folks in a few states on the way there, so by the time we get to Ohio we'll have been on the road at least a week.


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## Clarice

We have baby yellow squash. The tomatoes & bell peppers are blooming and the snap beans are up about 4".


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## Ezmerelda

gypsysue said:


> Ezmerelda, how did you build the sides for your raised beds? The cardboard for the bottoms is a good idea!


Well, that was still the expensive part. My husband used 2x12 lumber and we made 4'x4' beds. Cheaper alternatives are shelves from stores going out of business, or worn out tractor tires (my husband WILL NOT allow me to use these-he's so weird), recycled pallets, recycled doors, old logs...

Also, those black plastic barrel liners make good places to plant potatoes and other deep root items. I cut the bottoms out, lined the bottom with cardboard, and filled 'em up. My friend with the greenhouse partially buries her barrels so that the retain moisture better, she says.

I haven't had any problem keeping them moist (mulch is my friend!) and the soil in the barrel warms up before the ground soil, so I can plant earlier.

I give my blueberries the dredges of the coffee pot every so often, to keep their soil nice and acidic. Seems to be working.

The only thing I've no luck with is corn. It grows, the bees are all over it, but the ears (when any form) are puny and sickly looking. As soon as I find some more cardboard and something for the sides, I'm going to try the three sisters approach. Maybe that will get me some corn. :crossfinger:


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## Emerald

Ezmerelda said:


> Well, that was still the expensive part. My husband used 2x12 lumber and we made 4'x4' beds. Cheaper alternatives are shelves from stores going out of business, or worn out tractor tires (my husband WILL NOT allow me to use these-he's so weird), recycled pallets, recycled doors, old logs...
> 
> Also, those black plastic barrel liners make good places to plant potatoes and other deep root items. I cut the bottoms out, lined the bottom with cardboard, and filled 'em up. My friend with the greenhouse partially buries her barrels so that the retain moisture better, she says.
> 
> I haven't had any problem keeping them moist (mulch is my friend!) and the soil in the barrel warms up before the ground soil, so I can plant earlier.
> 
> I give my blueberries the dredges of the coffee pot every so often, to keep their soil nice and acidic. Seems to be working.
> *
> The only thing I've no luck with is corn. It grows, the bees are all over it, but the ears (when any form) are puny and sickly looking. As soon as I find some more cardboard and something for the sides, I'm going to try the three sisters approach. Maybe that will get me some corn. :crossfinger:*


Are you planting your corn in long rows or blocks? Corn in garden beds does not do as well planted as they do in big farmer fields. I've seen gardens with two or three long skinny rows and they do not produce well as corn is mostly wind pollinated. Now if you garden small planting in blocks of say 15 by 15 foot blocks they get pollinated better and produce bigger and fuller ears of corn. Don't pull any suckers either(also called tillers) a study done by one of the big colleges noted that corn with tillers produced better ears of corn and more corn than those who had their tiller removed. Side dress with good composted manure or add your favorite fertilizers a couple times during the growing season. right when they tassle and about halfway thru the ear growing time. I probably left out tons of things but that is what I remember for now.


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## Halfway

Wow, this thread has turned into an info-loaded bonanza!

:beercheer:


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## Halfway

Any updates?


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## TheAnt

Here is a picture of my raised bed garden from a couple months ago.

The ground here is rock hard, you can litterally sweep your back yard of the loose dirt on top and have a concrete like surface. I measured my garden to be 6'x12' and drove small metal stakes at the corners. I drilled holes in those stakes and screwed a 2 foot (approx) 2x4 to that. I then ripped down 3/8" plywood (would have used thicker but i had scrap around already, reinforced things in places with other scrap) and attached those to the 2x4.

See the corners:









Where the plywood would not reach to the other corner I attached two pieces together using other scrap and then to hold the center from busting out I ran a 'bridge' of sorts between them.










I put down cardboard, as mentioned earlier to hold water better, and purchased a truckload (maybe 2) of soil to fill it all in. Then I added some miracle grow topsoil and some other stuff on that and mixed it in. You can also see I have it on an irrigation system that floods it once a day. With the heat and dry air here I find its dry by the time its time to water again.

Worked for me! I have bush beans, and baby squashes already coming up. Tomatoes are about to flower! Onions and cilantro look like they are doing well too.


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## JustCliff

I have finally gotton around to building my raised beds. Lowes had 2X8's on sale the last couple of weeks so.. I got a bunch. I have 11. 4'X16' beds done and enough wood for 36 more. I wont be done till the fall cole crops are ready to plant but next year will be quite busy. I also have drip irrigation and a dedicated well and green house.


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## farmerbrown23

I've been trying to find an app for gardening the square foot method for a while now and I think I might have found something pretty useful. Smartgardener.com just came out with a new "add on" to its online application that lets you map out your garden with suggested square foot spacings and even has cool little structures for trellises, cages and other types of support. 

It's also a plus that the website generates personalized reminders of my garden tasks and has a huge database of all the growing info I would ever want about the plants I'm growing right down to the variety level. I'm going to give this a try this summer and then reply back with my experience with it and I'd like to hear some feedback from others about this app and other apps that are useful for growing a lot of food quickly in small spaces. 

Can't wait to trellis my Pumpkins and Melons and hang them in their slings! And I'm also doing rainbow mix carrots, finocchio, Siberian Tomatoes (they easily produce fruit in my cooler summer here in SF, unlike many other types), Strawberries, and surrounding my square foot plot with perennial herbs (lavender, rosemary, thyme, mint, winter savory, french tarragon, fennel, Lemon Balm, Mexican Tarragon and more) to keep the pests down, and the space fresh!


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## HoppeEL4

I feel envious...I was feeling uninspired about the veggie gardening, our summer last year was so bad nothing finished and we hardly got a thing. I was going to downscale and of course with raised beds figured I could get better results...I kept piddling around, felt sort of hesitant to do it at all, but could not figure out where my motivation went to. I think it was "Providential"....I was in the back field last Friday trying to put up some coyote proof fencing to ward off another massacre of our hens, came towards the house, and my son pointed to the front, and there sat a "for sale" sign....

The house is being sold out from under us, and we were not notified till that sign. Maybe God knew starting a garden could have been a waste of time. Now we have to get rid of our chickens too.

I think the owner is in bad financial trouble as they have other properties here and they are for sale too, this one (listed as acreage only, 8.71 acres, house value not included in price) is going for $395,000.00, and in 2005 he bought it for $1,111,250.00!!!!! what a loss. And no, we cannot finance that much, since they are selling it as unimproved land, I think that changes the loan issue altogether too (found out the well belongs fully to the neighbor..this land does not have its own water source anyways).

So no garden. Got a few tomato plants I will pot and keep with some herbs but thats it till next summer and we have found something else....


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## goshengirl

Hopp, I'm so sorry you found out that way. We'll keep you and yours in our prayers as you search for a new place. (Or maybe you'll be able to stay if the new buyer buys the property as investment?)


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## brucehylton

HoppeEL4 said:


> I feel envious...I was feeling uninspired about the veggie gardening, our summer last year was so bad nothing finished and we hardly got a thing. I was going to downscale and of course with raised beds figured I could get better results...I kept piddling around, felt sort of hesitant to do it at all, but could not figure out where my motivation went to. I think it was "Providential"....I was in the back field last Friday trying to put up some coyote proof fencing to ward off another massacre of our hens, came towards the house, and my son pointed to the front, and there sat a "for sale" sign....
> 
> The house is being sold out from under us, and we were not notified till that sign. Maybe God knew starting a garden could have been a waste of time. Now we have to get rid of our chickens too.
> 
> I think the owner is in bad financial trouble as they have other properties here and they are for sale too, this one (listed as acreage only, 8.71 acres, house value not included in price) is going for $395,000.00, and in 2005 he bought it for $1,111,250.00!!!!! what a loss. And no, we cannot finance that much, since they are selling it as unimproved land, I think that changes the loan issue altogether too (found out the well belongs fully to the neighbor..this land does not have its own water source anyways).
> 
> So no garden. Got a few tomato plants I will pot and keep with some herbs but thats it till next summer and we have found something else....


I am getting ready to sell an 8.4 acre parcel 65 miles north of Portland. Would take work or money to develop, but water is not an issue and lots of plants to eat. If you are interested, PM me.


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## lhalfcent

HoppeEL4 said:


> I feel envious...I was feeling uninspired about the veggie gardening, our summer last year was so bad nothing finished and we hardly got a thing. I was going to downscale and of course with raised beds figured I could get better results...I kept piddling around, felt sort of hesitant to do it at all, but could not figure out where my motivation went to. I think it was "Providential"....I was in the back field last Friday trying to put up some coyote proof fencing to ward off another massacre of our hens, came towards the house, and my son pointed to the front, and there sat a "for sale" sign....
> 
> The house is being sold out from under us, and we were not notified till that sign. Maybe God knew starting a garden could have been a waste of time. Now we have to get rid of our chickens too.
> 
> I think the owner is in bad financial trouble as they have other properties here and they are for sale too, this one (listed as acreage only, 8.71 acres, house value not included in price) is going for $395,000.00, and in 2005 he bought it for $1,111,250.00!!!!! what a loss. And no, we cannot finance that much, since they are selling it as unimproved land, I think that changes the loan issue altogether too (found out the well belongs fully to the neighbor..this land does not have its own water source anyways).
> 
> So no garden. Got a few tomato plants I will pot and keep with some herbs but thats it till next summer and we have found something else....


so sorry you have to go through this. My family and I went through a landlord who was foreclosed by the bank and we didn't know until a bank rep came to the door looking for the landlord!
I had already established a garden with plants that were to come up year after year like asparagus. sigh It is hard and kinda takes the wind out of you. but God is faithful and He will show you a nice place where you can settle down and do all you need to do. blessings


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## HoppeEL4

Thanks all. Hope it works out good. Bruce, I appreciate it, my husbands work is here, well actually in Portlands industrial area and this is as far as we can go.

I understand this landlord must be taking a hit selling off properties like he is, and taking a lot less for this one than he paid, I have to assume there has been financial trouble, which I wish there was not for him, it all trickles down you know. Someone like him who has the money to invest and make jobs and such, and also have the places to rent to people like us, as really people we need, in this country, to be doing well.

The manager is a different case....he had to have been told, he was about another place of this guys up for sale just 1/2 mile down the road that HE managed too, so you know he was told about this place, and was not telling us the see how long he could drain the rent from us before it sold. However, in this market, people I know who used to deal in real estate and one in construction, said large plots of land are not moving right now, people do not have the money to build or improve on, and this place is not improved, nor has its own water source, so this would be an expense for anyone taking it on.

I hope to have the summer here so we can just enjoy one more before we have to move. I like the location, its nice, open, pleasant rolling farmland, though I don't like the busy road...people in the new subdivisions just up the road from us, all work in Portland and use our road as a means to get to the highway, and they drive too fast and their teens like to hot rod down it as a racetrack of sorts (one of those hills that bottoms out and then tops out enough to be "fun").


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## Woody

I was worried about starting a garden when I rented also, losing all that work and effort but it was worth it for the years I was there.

I have a medium garden (30' x 40') and still use SFG techniques, I like the little plots with wide spaces between them for working. For larger plants I modify SFG but they are not really straight one plant rows. For something like radishes and carrots I have a 12" to 16" wide 'row' 10' long, all my rows are 10' long. I put radishes in every 3" in a checkerboard pattern using 1' of the row. [EDIT: more like an X pattern, not squares.] The next foot I do the same with carrots. Two weeks later I do another foot of both and on and on. This gives me succession of crops so not all come ready at once. I am single so this works well for me, with a family you might do 2' or 3' for each planting depending on your needs. I start plots early, as in way early because if we get an easy spring I'll have early vegetables. If we do get a hard freeze and I lose them it is not a huge loss and I plant again. I do this with all my cool weather crops: peas, lettuce, spinach, radishes and carrots. To get a jump on beans, corn, squash and cukes I put black plastic down on the row for a week or so to warm the soil. I'll plant half a row (5') and come back two weeks later and plant the other 5'. If I lose some it is not a huge loss and I can plant that space again later. Not all plantings will germinate, might be too cold or wet so I just wait two weeks and plant again in the next spot. If the seeds don't rot they will spring up when conditions are right for them.

For the beans I'll put two lines in the soil, 6" apart in a ~8" wide trench that is 2" or 3" deep. The trench allows me to target water to the roots, I can put some food in there if needed and I fill with mulch as they grow. I'll go along the lines planting a seed every 4" then go back and put one in the middle between the outside ones so it forms kind of an X pattern. The middle one is right under the trellis. I get almost triple the production as planting a single row and the plants are not too crowded, they all seem to get enough light. I do the same with peas and cucumbers but the peas are 3" spacing and I put in 4 rows of seeds in one trench. I grow pole peas and beans, not sure if this would be too crowded for bush varieties. For the early plantings I do 5' of the row.

For corn I make 6 - 10' rows one foot apart. I'll plant 3 or 5 plots, depending on the conditions, two weeks apart. For the early plantings I'll use 5' of the rows and plant the other 5' two weeks later. I have always had good pollination with this spacing. Some years the early 5' will grow slow and the second 5' catches up and they are both ready at the same time. That's just the way it goes some years!

Tomatoes I draw lines 2' apart and plant then in a saw tooth pattern 3' from each other. They fill in and I can get to both sides easily. Depending on your variety some can be closer, some need to be spaced farther apart. Same with peppers but closer, I believe 12" to 14" in the pattern. Not really SFG but not straight rows wither.

Squash I just plant in hills that are in a straight row.

I use newspaper, cardboard and triple shredded hardwood bark for mulch. I'll put two layers of newspaper down and cover with a light layer of mulch and water well. Never had an issue with them blowing away, but if it has been really dry they may need a bit of water. For where I walk between rows I use cardboard and spread a little mulch over it, don't need to put mulch it just makes me happy. In a few more years I'll be able to move all the rows over a few feet and till the path to plant. Yes, I think I'll have to till not use as a lasagna bed, it is pretty compacted.


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