# What's acceptable?



## Starcreek (Feb 4, 2015)

I was at a public meeting recently here in my little rural town, and an older man was complaining about a rezoning request near his farm that would allow apartments to be built. After the meeting, I overheard him having a casual conversation with the local police chief about whether someone who steals food because they're hungry should be punished, and the old man said this: "Well, (Mrs. so-and-so) asked me the other day if I didn't think I needed to put up some extra food for hard times, and I said, 'I have a gun.' She said, 'Oh, yes, I guess there are lots of squirrels in the woods.' And I said, 'You don't understand. I have a gun, so I will get my food from people that don't have guns.'"

I slipped out of the room thinking to myself, "We don't live out far enough...."

What do y'all think....what is acceptable, and where do you draw the line? If times got really hard, and you had family or friends to provide for, what would you consider acceptable?


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Most people can not honestly answer that question. 
I am a very unemotional, rational, cold hearted realist but I can not honestly say what I would do. 
I am ready for death and I do not fear it. But if my family was starving that is different. There are just too many variables.

Would you kill people just to find out you only get two days rations?
What if it was one day's rations?
What if it was two months worth of food?
Are they your neighbors or a stranger of a different race?
What if it was someone that you know and don't like?
What if you would have to kill a whole family including an infant?
Way too many variables. And way too hard to be honest to yourself.


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## Resto (Sep 7, 2012)

Guess we will find out. Im prepared. I don't care what anyone else does.


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## crabapple (Jan 1, 2012)

I thought he was saying to stop people from taking his food.
I hope he is a cagey old fox playing poor, so no one will take his stores.
I would only kill to save a life, which includes killing anyone trying to took my stores.


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## Starcreek (Feb 4, 2015)

I don't know the man well enough to say, but I'm guessing he does not want to kill anyone, just point a gun at them and demand their food....if things got really hard.

Problem is, you don't find out what your values really are until times get really hard.

We've all heard of the Donner Party....how they got stuck in a mountain pass in the winter and ended up resorting to cannibalism to survive. I heard a radio program about it one time, and one of the families did not "taste human flesh." They survived. They were willing to risk death, rather than compromise on what they believed to be right, and they survived anyway.

Where do we draw the line?

And is it worth surviving, if we give up what we believe to be right?


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## AmmoSgt (Apr 13, 2014)

it's one of the main reasons I work so hard on my wildcrafting , trapping, and hunting, gardening, permaculture/ orchard.
I have had to use lethal force line of duty. I will not use lethal force to protect property, only life. believe in a lot of deterrents and whole house defensive gadgets, barriers, strengthened doors , storm windows http://freckleface.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/polycarbonatesheetonequarterinchthick.html dogs and I have my house arranged that given half a chance and a few seconds we can retreat to a safe defensible area, and you can have the rest of the house appliances TV's whatever and never get shot.. pass the entrance to the safe area, I will shoot.

I will not steal or kill a human for food. I know the cost, a life of regret and mental anguish. This is no secret, but I really do believe people simply don't understand or even grasp the implications... Using nuclear weapons in war is unimaginable, having them fall into the hands of unauthorized people/ terrorists is unthinkable.. We have a very strict , no questions asked policy with hard and fast rules about a proactive use of lethal force to prevent anything even coming close to unauthorized access.. we and every other nuclear power, because it comes with just having the weapons, have policies that make terms like unthinkable and unimaginable seem real easy to understand and common sense. You see signs that mention the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 1946 up thru 2008 and that the use of lethal force is authorized, Believe it. Do not doubt, do not expect anything even coming close to a reasonable response, to not expect being stopped and questioned.

Not saying they will always shoot first, they are experts at handling planned protests without killing protestors .. but they are completely authorized to kill you without warning once you enter the security zone. It simply that they will not risk unauthorized access.

Anyway.. you decide where you draw the line, now, and then stick to it. and do not leave out the fact that using lethal force defending what you will defend with your life, includes dying or getting your family killed in the attempt to defend it. What you are willing to kill to protect, others are willing to kill to get. Perhaps even more desperately than you are to keep it. When you prep, prep with that in mind, have what you can afford to lose, or are not willing to die or kill defending arranged where you do not have to kill or die.. indecision will get you killed faster than anything, trying to decide when or if it is legal to use lethal force, or in a shtf situation worth risking it at the moment you have to make the decision will get you killed.

If you carry concealed do not get your information from the internet.. get a lawyer , sit down with them for an hour and have them explain what the local laws allow, what they want you to do before, during and after so they have the best possible chance to defend you given the local laws. And then put them on retainer so you have a lawyer to call , to refer the police to should the worst ever happen. You have to be mentally clear before hand or you will be racked with doubts afterwards and for the rest of your life. If you have any soul or conscience , even the cleanest, most clearly justified shoot will haunt you. You have to be crystal clear about what you believe justifies using lethal force, or you will hesitate, clear on the law, clear on the morality .. because at the moment you pull the trigger you will not have enough information to puzzle it out.. you either perceive an immediate threat to you life or the life of another person or you don't and all the what if's fall might happen a month later if you don't have enough food falls into don't.

If you carry now, before the shtf when all the laws are in force, I strongly recommend you also carry insurance like Second Call or a similar policy. Come shtf you need to plan for when the canned food you stack runs out. There are no prizes for starving to death last, or killing yourself because you can't live with what you had to do to stay alive. When it comes to taking human life, or risking your life and the lives of your loved ones,, it has to make moral sense at the time to you, and it has to make moral sense when the lights come back on. It has to be the right thing to at the time in your own head, even if the law convicts you, and you have a long time to think about what put you behind bars if you get convicted for it. And that is a risk, no matter how legally justified it seemed at the time.

Get the best legal advice by talking to a lawyer, talk to your minister now about the moral consequences. Now or post shtf.

this is a long video but I highly recommend it for anybody who carries or plans on using lethal force against another human being to survive











more at https://www.killology.com/

and this 




5 parts about 10 minutes each not sure if they all come with this one link just search the title on you tube


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

I'm fairly confident on how I would handle that if I was my only consideration. But it would be hard to say if I had to come home to a starving wife or, God forbid, a starving child. I've seen how people act in desperate situations. Becoming that scares me. That's why I prepare for bad times by stocking essential goods, having skills that will help me procure essential goods in a bad situation, and having a plan. Every prep I have and every skill I master is just one more thing between my current situation and that of a desperate scavenger with limited options. I will do everything in my power to live by the moral code I have chosen. That doesn't include taking from others. My lack of planning and knowledge does not constitute an emergency for others. I honestly believe doing the right thing pays dividends and my plan is to stick to that. Hope it always stays that way.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Starcreek said:


> "Well, (Mrs. so-and-so) asked me the other day if I didn't think I needed to put up some extra food for hard times, and I said, 'I have a gun.' She said, 'Oh, yes, I guess there are lots of squirrels in the woods.' And I said, 'You don't understand. I have a gun, so I will get my food from people that don't have guns.'"


My father made the same comment at Christmas. He said there is no need putting up extra food and supplies because he has guns and can just take from those that don't have guns.

We gave my folks a 3 day kit for them to keep in their car when they come out to see us. It was a subtle way to bring up prepping with them since they are close to their late 60s/early 70s.

For once in my 37 years of life I could not figure out if my dad was kidding with that comment.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

I'm always confused by the "I don't need to have goods on hand; I have guns" statement. This is America. Everyone has guns. Having guns doesn't make you special. Having guns doesn't make you good with them or proficient at all the skills that go along with being good in an armed altercation. Even if you are good at all that there is always someone better and if they aren't better than you there are a ton of ways to mitigate weaknesses ie, having greater numbers, a defensive plan, weapons that can be considered a combat multiplier, etc. Violence and force should always be a last resort for good reason. Even the best can't control all the variables in a bad situation. Spec ops guys die all the time and they have training and experience far beyond anything I've done. Anyone using violence and force as their go to survival plan will learn some hard lessons very quickly. Keep in mind we have been at war for over 10 years and have a large population of veterans in this country. That sleepy looking guy with a nice family and a little middle aged married belly in the next neighborhood could be much better with a situational awareness and a firearm than you might assume.


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## AmmoSgt (Apr 13, 2014)

Hmmm people are funny... the world is full of starving kids , we got starving kids right here in America.. not a lot of armed robberies of Grocery stores for food.. mostly sneak thief/ shoplifting stuff or grab and run stuff ... just saying

Millions of single parent families, where one parent simply doesn't give a rip, no time , no support, no sense of responsibility

all 50 states have safe surrender laws and drop off points https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe-haven_law

I commend those that feel that sense of responsibility, but I simply don't see it as a major reason folks will try to steal food at gun point from preppers .

Might be a lot of begging, or folks offering what little they have for food for kids .. mothers prostituting themselves to get stuff for their kids ...

I don't see a whole lot of difference between killing them for trying to steal food and taking advantage or taking their dignity if they come begging.

threaten me and all bets are off .. come begging and I can probably find some honest work for a few days for a few people at a time in exchange for food and temporary shelter.. depends on the overall situation.

the world is a far more pitiful and pitiless place than most know, even now. All the more reason to know and understand nutrition ...

if you have hungry mobs , they are more a threat to each other if they find food , than they are to the people with food... ask anybody that has ever delivered emergency food to people in a famine .. the priority is crowd control and trying to keep folks from killing each other fighting over food .


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

It wouldn't be right to rob someone of their food regardless of how much they have or how badly you need it. Which is why I'll use a gun to defend the food that I already have when that time comes.


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## AmmoSgt (Apr 13, 2014)

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way—in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only"

C.Dickens


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## AmmoSgt (Apr 13, 2014)

BillS said:


> It wouldn't be right to rob someone of their food regardless of how much they have or how badly you need it. Which is why I'll use a gun to defend the food that I already have when that time comes.


Bill .. those videos I posted. the last one is an hour long how and why it is that only 2 people out of 100 can and do shoot to kill on the battlefield despite thinking when they joined up and before combat they were steely eyed killers

And the first one is over three hours on how to really be a steely eyed killer when you have to be.

and the middle one is also helpful with becoming combat effective.

There is also a lot of discussion on why 98% of men won't watch them or believe they aren't already steely eye killers... but the simple fact is.. odds are, if you were in fact a steely eyed killer you would already be in a profession where that was a necessary skill set. And chances are you would have already found the videos.

Military has spent 70 years and a lot of time, money, and thought trying to figure out how to make soldiers more combat effective and to increase the number that will aggressively shoot to kill. Those videos are the cliff notes about what we know so far.

And it starts with forgetting Hollywood and video games and accepting the fact that in a life or death shoot to save a life situation fully one third of those that can actually do that, pee their pants, or crap themselves, or puke when they do... I'm a puker.. it's a good thing to know about ones self.

if you are serious about what you say you will watch the videos.

There is a reason that guns are used to stop crime , depending on which estimate you prefer , 160,000 to 400,000 times a year and only about 5000 people die each year committing crimes, and most of those are police shootings.. and probably mostly police that watched the first video.

There is a reason that police, all who have passed qualification shoots, either on a paper target or combat pop up range multiple times, have to fire 42 times to hit the criminal.

there is a reason over 2000 rounds were fired at close range in the North Hollywood bank robbery by police and criminals, and the body count was 2 bad guys dead 8 police and 12 bystanders injured and the bad guys heads were about 3 times bigger that the bullseye's on a police qualification target. Except the bad guys had real eyes .. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

about 1 out of a hundred bullets actually hit in an effective place. and then mostly by accident and not the intended target .. which in real life is pretty good shooting actually.

https://jonathanturley.org/2011/01/10/gao-u-s-has-fired-250000-rounds-for-every-insurgent-killed/ and keep in mind, the vast majority of terrorists killed are killed by artillery/mortars and air strikes, or crew served weapons, not small arms fire .

http://www.historynet.com/men-again...apons-at-the-enemy-during-the-vietnam-war.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killology

Don't get me wrong, I truly believe If somebody came to steal your chesse you would be incredibly angry and incredibly brave and probably even charge them with guns blazing and you would scare the living bejesus out of them and they would run away.. if you really want to hit them/ kill them, you will watch the videos .

Yet another reason that IDPA is good training.

And this to help inform your training https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPx0aY5zIancLjIgoa6s4Gg


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

This question is the basis of why I / we prep. I will have enough to outlast my neighbors, so by the time I run out of food, there will not be any neighbors to steal from. I will shoot (I am one of those 2 out of a 100 who will shoot to kill) to protect my family and supplies and not lose a minute of sleep.

I believe in actual field type training but I am not a strong supporter of organized heavy rule type events. I don't care if my shot occurred before I reached the cover. Being accurate, having situational site awareness, and being proficient with all my weapons is my goal.

Understanding the legal aspects of concealed carry and the legal justification to shoot is an absolute. These laws and justifications change in every state, know and understand them for each state you travel or live. You are not Hillary and not have the intent is not going to keep you out of jail. JMHO


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## readytogo (Apr 6, 2013)

hiwall is on the money ,to many variables on this one ,I don`t think none of us have been in a situation were we needed to kill someone for a loaf of bread and I pray we never have to ,but in my country people have to steal to survived and is very common for neighbors to steal from each other or face prison terms for stealing from their jobs, taking a pound of coffee from a government warehouse is a 5 year term ,is very common for people to keep pigs in their bathroom at night or in the country side family or friends keep watch over their livestock and crops ,folks a pound of coffee is $40 Cuban dollars, 1 egg is $1.20 ,loaf of bread $5 and the average salary is $450 which equals $22 American dollars a month ,people have to steal to survive ,so I guess that situation here will create lots of dead bodies around the farm.


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## AmishHeart (Jun 10, 2016)

In your first sentence, you refer to "in my country"
Do you mean Cuba? Are you an American?


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

Twice I have had friends say that they didn't have to store food because they would come and take mine if the need arose. They couldn't understand why I wasn't laughing too. I wanted to tell them that the reason that I wasn't laughing was that I didn't think that killing them was funny but I figured that I had already said too much. 

I don't believe that they meant to threaten my life but I do believe that if their families were starving that they would come looking for food and that they would resort to violence if they were hungry enough.

I believe that I am in the 2%. I would hate it. I would loose sleep. It would be the worst day of my life, but I would defend myself and my family.


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## AmmoSgt (Apr 13, 2014)

Everybody thinks they are in that 2%. it's simple, if you have already killed someone face to face you are. If you haven't, ,the video's, especially lt Col. Grossman's video's are one way to improve your odds.

There is a difference between think you are, and doing everything you possibly can to be ready when the moment comes..

and here Is the ugly truth. Special Forces, SEALS, Rangers , Force Recon, SAS the best of the best, tried and tested, get killed. They just get killed less often and in far more unbalanced and extreme scenarios. sweat saves blood,

When the adrenalin hits you brain.. you have two modes of function, muscle memory and fumbles.

women are actually better at this than men as a group .. more women have experienced total physical dominance by interpersonal violence with the threat of death than men have. Which means more women know what it feels like and are more prepared for how their body reacts and betrays them the tunnel vision, the shakes, the loss of co-ordination, the loss of simple multi tasking ( how many times have you been so afraid you have forgotten to breath? ), time distortion/ everything slows down/ everything happens in slow motion, the crapping and pissing themselves .. which happens to be a defense mechanism against rape .. hard wired. There is also an out of body response, you mentally separate from your body but can still control it.. it's not just not caring if you live or die.. it's more than that.. it's more like getting past the fear, it's a type of euphoria.. there are many chemicals / hormones in the body .. anybody here ever experience the "runner's high' a release of endorphin that is quite distinctly different than " getting your second wind" which can be from endorphins but milder .. well imagine a total dump of endorphins greater than the adrenalin dump, an override If you will.. a total acceptance of fate, utter clarity, man, people talk about handing it ( it being the outcome) over to God and knowing He has intervened on your behalf for just that moment... I did that ONCE. Second wind many times, runners high half dozen times maybe a couple of those are arguably might have just been a second wind on an exceptionally beautiful day .. but a full endorphin dump only once.. I am willing to bet it is what is also called an epiphany but brought on by fear rather than shocking realization. and you never forget it and yet, the details of what happened are a little vague , more impressions.

Anyway.. I know you guys genuinely believe you are in the 2% odds are 50 to 1 against you being right. It has nothing to do with being brave, it has everything to do with crossing a line between trying to dominate the bad guy , scaring him off making him drop his gun, piss himself, on one side of that line.. and killing him on the other. Folks who can just kill deliberately are sociopaths

I've posted stuff that will help you be that 2% even if you aren't, without being a sociopath. To take it to the next level, to be able to do what must be done if all the normal things of threatening a bad guy doesn't work in making them leave and you " winning" the showdown. The duel if you will, except with modern weapons .. swords were mostly a first blood type of thing.. the dueling scar a tangible sign you have the cajones to stand your ground .. when it comes to flintlock pistols or cap and ball duels .. know this, the ballistics , aside from smoothbores being notoriously inaccurate, the foot pounds of energy from a black powder round ball from a Colt or Remington 44 .. is about the same as a .380 from a 3" barrel http://poconoshooting.com/blackpowderballistics.html If you die from a single shot it was either exceptionally well placed or as a result of the lousy medical care of the day. Not to say a .380 isn't a lethal weapon, it is, but nobody advises taking a single shot and then stopping and checking for results with a .380 .. it's keep shooting until the threat is stopped.

watch the video's get some realistic training .. IDPA has a minimum "power factor" that you can use in competition which is about where 9 x19 mm starts. anything smaller can't be used for official competition. And that's a little weird since 22LR has killed more people than any other caliber.

all I can tell you is that if armed self defense factors into your plans and you can imagine a scenario where you might have to use lethal force in defense of self or others .. knowing everything you can know and training as much as you can train will improve your odds.. by definition you have to fear for your life before you can try and kill the attacker.. you will be facing death, don't let your ego or unsupported opinion of yourself get in the way of having every possible advantage at that moment. Here is what the pros do, the regimen they follow just for target shooting

http://www.saveourguns.com/Ar_Marks_Un_Pistol_Train_Guide.pdf you will be amazed at what the manual covers.

you have to have mastery of your weapon and yourself.. if you don't make the effort the only person you are BS'ing is yourself.

Just owning a gun is not enough .. just like there are no bad guns that go around committing crimes by themselves , there are no good guns that automagically defend you and your loved ones. the more factors you can control thru training and understanding and knowledge of the laws, your weapon, yourself, and especially your mind the better your chances are. You can't count on going temporarily insane or so angry you lose all control over your conscience and awareness of the consequences to kill.. and that is your only other option

For those that don't know L. col. Grossmans most famous work is this

https://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/1709289-Book-Excerpt-On-Sheep-Wolves-and-Sheepdogs/

and please notice, those that really are in that 2% do everything possible to prepare, actually they can't help themselves but to prepare. to that 2% the threat is constantly real, the motivation to prepare for a intimate violent personal conflict is irresistible and a major priority in their life. That is how you know you might be a Sheepdog... if you just assume and think you will do well in a lethal force situation, especially if you do not have and never felt the need to get professional training , felt the need to actually get and do the training , then you really are fooling yourself.

It's just the way things are.. the folks really in the 2% would be falling all over themselves to get some of the stuff in this thread .. know they are different than most folks and are either trying to understand it or just accept it and choose a career where they can allow their instincts some room to operate.

Keep in mind that 2% we are talking about are 2% of people already in military/combat arms/ police/ firemen as a profession. Not 2% of the general population. They are the people that not only want to join the military or the police force, but that also openly say they want to serve with the best, Airborne or Ranger or Special Ops and double and triple volunteer for increasing elite units.

I am not in any way dissing anybody who thinks themselves capable of handling the situation.. in my state 1 in 10 adults have carry permits http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2014/09/washington_county_has_highest.html they can't all be right, but the ones that really feel that they will step up run into the flames make a personal effort and go out of their way to get the knowledge and training against the critical moment






.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

I will not murder or steal today and I will not murder or steal without rule of law either. There is a higher law that I try my best to obey instead of following the world.


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## AmmoSgt (Apr 13, 2014)

The time line goes like this.. after the Israelites left Egypt and the rule of law, God gave Moses the Tablets with the 10 Commandments .. pretty sure it was done that way because they didn't need them as much when under Pharaoh's. But whatever else it means, it's pretty clear they apply when no other law does.


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

AmishHeart said:


> In your first sentence, you refer to "in my country"
> Do you mean Cuba? Are you an American?


Assimilation issues.


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

When I lived at my last home I heard some friends say that they would come to my house if SHTF. My reply was ... I won't be there by the time you get there. My plan was to be gone to a BOL long before the masses realized there was a real problem.

I've also heard those who state " I don't need to store food, I have guns!" I've heard that in RL and also on prepper sites.

Now I have moved onto a homestead over 6 hours from my last residence. No one from there knows where I live now. No one around here knows I prep or am prepared. I don't even fire weapons here. I do that elsewhere to sight in rifles or practice. The only weapon fired here is a .22 cal rifle to deal with varmints on occasion. 

I doubt that a lack of food will be a problem here. This is major farm/ranch country and everyone around me has a garden and cans food. There are quite a few people around this area who have moved here to become self sufficient. If anyone around here needs food the church will give them food. Any overages of food are given to the local churches to distribute to parishioners. Lots of eggs and vegetables etc.


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## terri9630 (Jun 2, 2016)

LastOutlaw said:


> When I lived at my last home I heard some friends say that they would come to my house if SHTF. My reply was ... I won't be there by the time you get there. My plan was to be gone to a BOL long before the masses realized there was a real problem.
> 
> I've also heard those who state " I don't need to store food, I have guns!" I've heard that in RL and also on prepper sites.
> 
> ...


That's the way it is in the area around our new place. I think half the land out there is BOL's.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

AmmoSgt said:


> it's one of the main reasons I work so hard on my wildcrafting , trapping, and hunting, gardening, permaculture/ orchard.
> I have had to use lethal force line of duty. I will not use lethal force to protect property, only life. believe in a lot of deterrents and whole house defensive gadgets, barriers, strengthened doors , storm windows http://freckleface.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/polycarbonatesheetonequarterinchthick.html dogs and I have my house arranged that given half a chance and a few seconds we can retreat to a safe defensible area, and you can have the rest of the house appliances TV's whatever and never get shot.. pass the entrance to the safe area, I will shoot.
> 
> I will not steal or kill a human for food. I know the cost, a life of regret and mental anguish. This is no secret, but I really do believe people simply don't understand or even grasp the implications... Using nuclear weapons in war is unimaginable, having them fall into the hands of unauthorized people/ terrorists is unthinkable.. We have a very strict , no questions asked policy with hard and fast rules about a proactive use of lethal force to prevent anything even coming close to unauthorized access.. we and every other nuclear power, because it comes with just having the weapons, have policies that make terms like unthinkable and unimaginable seem real easy to understand and common sense. You see signs that mention the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 1946 up thru 2008 and that the use of lethal force is authorized, Believe it. Do not doubt, do not expect anything even coming close to a reasonable response, to not expect being stopped and questioned.
> ...


Lot of variables, as others have pointed out. If the shtf and you live within 40-50 miles of any medium-large urban areas, you WILL have some major decisions to make when THEIR food runs out...which won't take long! Best actual "survival areas" are waaay out in the sticks, and make yourself completely self sufficient. Hard to do if you are a "working man," and your job is in or near any urban area. Thing to do there is prepare your "survival area," and GET GONE if the shtf! Better to be prepared and not need it, than to be unprepared and suddenly find yourself SOL!


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## 101airborne (Jan 29, 2010)

The problem with that mentality is, Yes you may have a gun. BUT what about the other person may have a bigger gun, be better trained to use it, and the incentive to use it! Especially if he/ she has worked hard and long to prepare so their families will be okay and won't roll over and give them up. 

As for me I'll do whatever it takes to protect me and mine. If some idiot points a gun at me or mine they $#@% sure better be ready to use it cause given a chance I'll put them down with extreme prejudice! My philosophy is " I prepped, did without and scrimped and saved to do so. Anyone else could just work a bit harder, cut back some, and do the same thing! If they choose NOT to do so out of ignorance or just plain laziness it ain't my fault"


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## readytogo (Apr 6, 2013)

AmishHeart said:


> In your first sentence, you refer to "in my country"
> Do you mean Cuba? Are you an American?


I`m sorry AmishHeart ,bad English, I should have stated my country of birth.:surrender:


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## readytogo (Apr 6, 2013)

What is acceptable is the fact that we who know better should be ready to help and guide our family and friends as much as we can to remind them what the weather can bring at times and not close our doors to them ,what`s`s not acceptable is the fact that after trying to help little Julio and he doesn't want to learn or heed our warnings ,then the Hell with little Julio and his little 3 pigs ,my point of view .


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## fteter (May 23, 2014)

The continual theme throughout this thread is pretty clear and worth considering: if we do come to a SHTF situation, the biggest problem will be people...too many people in the area will lead to too many problems in that area.

I'm all for helping those that need it. I've prepared to do so. But it's those that think they'll simply take what they want who concern me. When I hear a single person say that they don't need to lay up food and preparations because they have a gun, I simply smile and nod and give a little prayer of gratitude that another lone wing nut has revealed his or her true intent...and I do keep a list of such wing nuts around my area. They'll be greeted with a big, buckshot hello should they show up at my place, no questions asked.

My real concern is for when people band together and come to take my preps. The best answer I've come up with is to maintain a high level of "OPSEC" in the present day and to have an isolated place to go if the need arises. Out of sight = out of mind.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

fteter said:


> The continual theme throughout this thread is pretty clear and worth considering: if we do come to a SHTF situation, the biggest problem will be people...too many people in the area will lead to too many problems in that area.
> 
> I'm all for helping those that need it. I've prepared to do so. But it's those that think they'll simply take what they want who concern me. When I hear a single person say that they don't need to lay up food and preparations because they have a gun, I simply smile and nod and give a little prayer of gratitude that another lone wing nut has revealed his or her true intent...and I do keep a list of such wing nuts around my area. They'll be greeted with a big, buckshot hello should they show up at my place, no questions asked.
> 
> My real concern is for when people band together and come to take my preps. The best answer I've come up with is to maintain a high level of "OPSEC" in the present day and to have an isolated place to go if the need arises. Out of sight = out of mind.


Yup...."Out of sight = Out of mind." And you have the best answer....Whenever one lives in a city, the best thing to do is have some secondary, self-sufficient place as a retreat, waaaaay out in the boonies! If shtf, get gone!


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

My answer to those that say they are coming to my house when SHTF.

"Your plan is to come to my place when SHTF? How's that going to work because I'm planning on coming to your place!"

:dunno:


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## headhunter (Nov 21, 2008)

Lt Col Grossman first book I believe was "On Killing" . He writes that during WWII , if you examine a rifle squad of 8 men, 4 would not shoot even if being shot at, 4 would shoot back, but only 2 would aim at the enemy. So strong is it ingrained "thou shall not kill". In his second book he deals with post traumatic stress. He carefully points out that until WWI the troops would gather around the campfire (no airplanes) so when dark came usually fighting stopped and they would debrief each other, the shared experience helped get rid of the guilt "why not me syndrome", the sharing of the experience, the "brother hood of war"- thanks for helping me today-you saved my life, and officers would tell them "great". He points out during WWII pilots were debriefed, had little flags painted on their air craft, leaders made them aces (society approves), their air crews celebrated, and at day's end the pilots could debrief each other and celebrate with - - -. Piiots did not show near the signs of PTSS.of the ground pounders who were faced with total war 24/7.


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## bbqjoe (Feb 10, 2017)

I once read that it only takes about 9 missed meals to start changing a person.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

bbqjoe said:


> I once read that it only takes about 9 missed meals to start changing a person.


9 meals? 9? Jeeez, if I missed 9 meals I'd be too weak to be much of a threat to anyone!


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

I believe he was referring to the "9 meals from anarchy". A quote from Henry Lewis in 1906 I believe.

Edit...here is a link

http://www.internationalman.com/articles/nine-meals-from-anarchy


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## headhunter (Nov 21, 2008)

"What is acceptable", I believe in part this depends on your belief of what is happening and what the duration of the calamity will be. Are we in a place were this is temporary or are we in a place where this is going to be the permanent state of affairs? If this is to be resolved in a week or two and then we will resume the ROL. A person may find themselves having to explain why they popped a cap at an appropriate target 200+ yards away or more. If it were for a short duration, how would you explain shooting at people who sought refuge in an out building- one holding what you will need next month or next year?
For events of a longer duration, I believe that the paradigm for acceptable behavior will shift.
To protect yourself you need to stay informed (listen to your radio), if reasonable -communicate with your neighbors. Make sure your land is posted and a gate at the road would be a good thing. Should you have to defend yourself later - the intruder chose to ignore your posting, they destroyed your fence/ gate or climbed over it. How could you - a reasonable person, concerned for your safety, not conclude you were in the greatest danger. 
At present simply displaying a weapon will get you in more trouble than you want to think about. If you are not happy with that, try discharging a weapon and you'll be in deeper "DO", shoot at a trespasser now and the sheriff will have a new gun collection-YOURS! Take care of you and your family.


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## AmmoSgt (Apr 13, 2014)

I don't think morality and values are situational, God gave the Hebrews the 10 Commandments after they bugged out because that was when they really needed them. 

I believe in self defense.. I have legally carried for decades .. but the rules are for protection of life or grave bodily harm.. self or others.. not fences or cheese supplies or flat screen TV's or stopping other crimes.. protection of life from an immediate threat.. not some possible threat which should rightly put you on alert... 

Nothing but nothing is worth a human life except saving a human life. And just as strongly my faith says I should strive to end suffering.. and bind up wounds feed the hungry... I just pray my faith is stronger than my fears when I am tested.


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## SewingMachine (Mar 26, 2017)

I don't think it is acceptable to become a marauder. Someone else mentioned in another post above, that many people (especially those of us here) are gun owners, and if not trained at least proficient. I don't see bandits lasting long. I know that if I were in a true, SHTF situation where I am, and I heard about people getting killed for food, I would be knocking on doors to get some of the neighborhood guys together to go take care of it. Gotta nip that stuff in the bud. 

Honestly, for what, 95% of known human history, people have been able to : get food, have babies, build shelter, form societies, and raise the babies without much help from "the state" or "the grid" or whatever. Sure, some people would cave, but I think a lot of people would do what we have always done, adapt, and carry on and do our best to keep at least some sort of moral compass pointing north.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

*Marauders....*



SewingMachine said:


> I don't think it is acceptable to become a marauder. Someone else mentioned in another post above, that many people (especially those of us here) are gun owners, and if not trained at least proficient. I don't see bandits lasting long. I know that if I were in a true, SHTF situation where I am, and I heard about people getting killed for food, I would be knocking on doors to get some of the neighborhood guys together to go take care of it. Gotta nip that stuff in the bud.
> 
> Honestly, for what, 95% of known human history, people have been able to : get food, have babies, build shelter, form societies, and raise the babies without much help from "the state" or "the grid" or whatever. Sure, some people would cave, but I think a lot of people would do what we have always done, adapt, and carry on and do our best to keep at least some sort of moral compass pointing north.


You are correct, marauders would need to be put down fast. The question is, will the would-be "victims" overcome (quickly enough) their ingrained sense of non-violence to get the job done? The "lets call 911" crap just ain't gonna cut the mustard....there isn't gonna BE any 911, period.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

The capabilities and mentality of people today are very different from when people grew up having to live a more self sufficient lifestyle. Today there are no where near the strong community ties that type of lifestyle made necessary at least in most places. Not saying we wouldnt adapt and overcome but I do expect quite a trying transition period. For a short time I would expect quite a bit of violence and wrol. I prep for that and if Im wrong than I am at least no worse off.


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## phideaux (Nov 7, 2015)

CrackbottomLouis said:


> The capabilities and mentality of people today are very different from when people grew up having to live a more self sufficient lifestyle. Today there are no where near the strong community ties that type of lifestyle made necessary at least in most places. Not saying we wouldnt adapt and overcome but I do expect quite a trying transition period. For a short time I would expect quite a bit of violence and wrol. I prep for that and if Im wrong than I am at least no worse off.


CBL, I agree , 
but I do believe it depends on your physical location .

There are areas of the country(fewer and fewer) where the community/neighbor are very tight and supportive .

Its still that way in the back woods ,rural , area of KY that I reside. 
I recall the 09 ice storm...OMG.... everybody was out helping everybody , and sharing whatever. It was like Boonesboro.

I cant imagine this being the case in the inner city of Nashville (my closest City). Probably anarchy.

Jim


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

I think that you are all right. The anti gun owners will have to think twice about their choice, for if they don't they will be severely hindered in surviving if they live at all. It will be a very steep learning curve for most people including myself but I'm learning so I'm hoping that I'm a bit ahead of the curve.


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## AmmoSgt (Apr 13, 2014)

phideaux said:


> CBL, I agree ,
> but I do believe it depends on your physical location .
> 
> There are areas of the country(fewer and fewer) where the community/neighbor are very tight and supportive .
> ...


Like I keep telling folks it was that way here in Huntsville , inner city and all, during a week long power outage .. everybody trying to help everybody else.. If you had damge from the Tornados you had to pick between a whole church showing up to clean up the mess or a high school football team...there wouldn't be room enough for both to work the same area

and I would remind folks during Sandy in NY City they had a stretch on no murders for 8 days right after the storm hit.. and over all crime stats were down.. with an up tick in burglary which includes looting.. but even that was ( to me ) shockingly rare.

here is a pretty good article refuting Wayne LaPierre's article describing hell on earth and mayhem in Brooklyn . In a dark humor kinda of way.. and yes I am an NRA member a CCW license Holder ( as is every adult in my extended family, it's a thing with us ) and I have an 03 FFL . Wayne blew it.. he described what many here expect to happen .. that Hollywood, normally the opponent of conservatives and guns, have made literally billions of dollars portraying .. while the crime stats paint a very different picture http://articles.latimes.com/2013/feb/18/nation/la-na-nn-nra-lapierre-brooklyn-20130218

Even the reported crime and killing , looting and rapes during Katrina mostly didn't happen , legitimate professional reporters on the scene and getting info from normally reliable sources way overstated and exaggerated and misreported stuff that either didn't happen at all or bore little resemblance to the heated and dramatic descriptions in the news

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...rs_later_the_myths_that_persist_debunked.html

http://ajrarchive.org/Article.asp?id=3998

http://www.nola.com/katrina/index.ssf/2005/09/rape_murder_gunfights.html

I find it kind of funny, in a dark way, that the MSM, who good conservative preppers won't believe for fear of being seduced by Satan himself.. quote some of the BS about human misbehavior during disaster that the MSM spews, like it was from the Bible itself ...

Downtown Nashville will probable be okay.. except it might be hard to get tickets when some of the big stars that live in the area decide to throw a telethon or fund raiser to raise money to rebuild


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## AmmoSgt (Apr 13, 2014)

Caribou.. of course they are.. how many times have you heard both sides of the story or seen it in print?

The first reports, almost always inaccurate, usually wildly inaccurate are the shocking dramatic click bait air time grabbing ratings winners .. and they are on when folks attention in on the subject.. so that is what people think happens .. I know a lot of people that think they are the last sane decent people on earth and everybody else is an animal or worse .. so that justifies them responding in kind when the shtf..

They have no personal experience of being in a disaster or working with the people that are in a disaster. the stores of folks helping of rescuing the lady and here dog from the flood as her car sank was on page two.. and wasn't covered by infowars http://www.wistv.com/story/32765504/woman-dog-pulled-from-water-now-in-shelter.

the really sad part may be that the people that are moving away are taking their expectations of how people are with them, and it's mutual thing, all the movers, think all the other movers are probably that kind of people ...

you know who isn't running?






and they are the very folks who have already seen the worst in us


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## readytogo (Apr 6, 2013)

AmishHeart said:


> In your first sentence, you refer to "in my country"
> Do you mean Cuba? Are you an American?


This one has to be a joke, right?. I think I still have my Cuban passport somewhere but is only good foe emergency outhouse purposes.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Caribou said:


> Ammo, you could be right but many thousands disagree and are voting with their feet.
> 
> https://www.infowars.com/thousands-of-americans-are-fleeing-the-big-cities/
> 
> ...


The "Left-Wing Elite," and the run of the mill, average "liberal sheep," are two completely different bodies......the "Elite" are well aware that when you finally "fall off the cliff," you better damn well have a recovery plan.....hence their interest in "prepping." The run of the mill "sheep," have no clue the cliff is approaching, much less what to do when it all goes to hell once they fall off the cliff.

Even the dumbest Conservative has SOME idea of what can/will happen when the shtf.

Extremely polarized politics, out-of-control Black/Latino gangs & their atrocities, illegal immigrants & their crimes, Muslims & their crimes, extreme racial polarization......the writing is on the wall, and one would do well to not ignore it. We are heading for anarchy, and it's just a question of time until the cliff is RIGHT THERE!


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## bbqjoe (Feb 10, 2017)

FWIW, here's my theory.

I don't think it's going to take one big thing to set the whole mess off, like a leader being assassinated, or something like a day when gas suddenly jumps to $5 bucks a gallon.

Something I've noticed, particularly in the food industry, is that people seem to have an unconscious collective thought process.

Having worked in all fields of the food industry, I couldn't help but make an observation such as this:
You work all week cooking breakfast, and not one person has ordered the cooks nightmare; poached eggs. Not one person. 
Then all of a sudden on one day, it seems everybody and their brother walks through the door, sits down, and wants a poached egg on a pancake.

Why? Somehow, everybody woke up that morning, and they all had the same thought; a poached egg on a pancake.
Did they all watch the same TV show the night before where some actor ordered it?
I don't think so. 

It just happens for some reason. And that's how I think the cookie is going to crumble. It won't be some big thing on the news, everyone will just wake up one morning, and that will be it. People will just start snapping, much like popcorn in a pan.


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## crabapple (Jan 1, 2012)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmishHeart View Post
In your first sentence, you refer to "in my country"
Do you mean Cuba? Are you an American?
This one has to be a joke, right?. I think I still have my Cuban passport somewhere but is only good foe emergency outhouse purposes.
__________________
By sharing my bread I will build a community
readytogo is offline Add to readytogo's Reputation Report Post 


In fact Cuba is part of America.
Part of North America, Not Central America.
Cuba is not part of USA, but the USA is a small part of the Americas & anyone born there is an American.
From Canada to Chile we all are American.


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

crabapple said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by AmishHeart View Post
> In your first sentence, you refer to "in my country"
> Do you mean Cuba? Are you an American?
> ...


Woo hoo Canada was mentioned in a American website


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

To me if a person is saying American it usually means USA. But American can mean North, South and Central America. Thoughts?


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

Caribou said:


> When I was about 19 I tried explaining that to a Canadian. He almost took my head off. You're on your own with that one. I survived that argument once I'll not push my luck.:surrender:


I can honestly say it wasn't me  and I'm sure there's a good story behind this one


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## crabapple (Jan 1, 2012)

Caribou said:


> When I was about 19 I tried explaining that to a Canadian. He almost took my head off. You're on your own with that one. I survived that argument once I'll not push my luck.:surrender:


Yes, some Mexicans do not like being called American.

But saying I do not like being called carrot top or woodpecker dose not change my hair color.

If it is a fact, then like or dislike will not change the fact.


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## headhunter (Nov 21, 2008)

During the 90’s a close friend’s relatives were moving out of Kalifornia into Colorado. Sirens sounded throughout the night, the sound of low flying helicopters would awaken them, and their backyard being lit up by search lights (should be better now with the thermal imaging) told them it was time to go. I can’t imagine such a life.
A siren going by means a neighbor we know has a serious problem. A low flying helicopter means a serious problem on the interstate 20 miles to the west and it’s a medical flight to the large drama center thirty miles east of us
I will admit that grandma will not patronize a large grocery store in that city after watching a couple of fights break out during broad daylight in the parking lot, unless grandpa goes along. Twenty years age it wasn’t a problem, but, Hmong, Hispanic, and Somali groups seem to have some difficulties and every once in a while the disenfranchised whites enter in.
Our small farm community got a whole lot smaller as the surrounding farms grew larger. We have become a bedroom community for those that work in that larger city. For those on the lower economic end our community provides “cheap housing”.
On the plus side, we are still rural enough I can head to the back yard and still have my 40 yd. handgun and my 100 yd. rifle range without a problem; and we still see turkeys, pheasants, and deer in the mile between the house and state highway. I still climb on the four wheeler to visit friends and the louder sounds are a chain saw or tractor. God is great, beer is good, grand children make me glad to be alive!
I am an American of Soumi (Finn) descent. Two of my best friends after 60+ years, one is of Italian and one is of Bohemian descent. They may yell, "Hey, Finlander!" I take no offense ,but grin from ear to ear. May you be so fortunate.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

Back in the day each village had a Idiot. I'm not referring to race, skin color, hair color or political or religious leanings. It was the person that kept repeating the same same mistake over and over expecting a different outcome each time.

The Village Idiot would finally do something really dumb and get themselves killed. The law of averages would provide the Village with another Idiot.

Then the Lawyers, Judges and Juries started mandating everything should be Idiot proofed. Instead of dying off the Village Idiots started multiplying.

With population growth village became towns and cities which resulted in more Idiots. And the Idiots were breeding too!

Some Idiots were taught they would get paid for having more children (welfare) thereby breeding more Village Idiots. And if they voted for a particular political party they would receive "freebies" too!

Too many of the Village Idiots were elected by their peers to political office. The once thriving communities started to decline because of their elected Village Idiots pattern of repeating the same mistakes and still expecting a different outcome.

All of a sudden, the Village Idiots had no one to care and look out for themselves and they didn't know how to do it themselves! They started migrating to the neighboring communities and states!

And now you know why (IMHO) people like Johnson or Feinstein exist today.

Johnson: 




Feinstein:


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## AmishHeart (Jun 10, 2016)

It's painful to listen to those two.

Go Ted Cruz!


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## headhunter (Nov 21, 2008)

Respect for the ROL is demonstrated by Sen. Cruz asking the chair to be allowed to reply. Sen. Feinstein decided to forgo this in her second reply ???


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