# EMP: what do you do....



## Padre

I had the pleasure to visit OH, WV, VA, and NC the other week. Pretty much had a week off and decided to go for a ride and see some friends. As I was driving through the Appalachian mtns a question hit me... what would I do if an EMP left me stranded right here in the middle of nowhere. Between me and my home is 1000miles of wild rugged back country, as well as a few hundred miles of urban wilderness. I remembered a book on W2K in which the protagonist is a survivalist (before the term prep per was ever used) who prepares a BOL, moves his wife in shortly before the Y2K hits, and then through an ironic twist of faith gets caught 1000+ miles from home. In the book he of course traverses this eventually returning home to find his family all dead except his best friends half crazed wife, and new born daughter. 

This book and my travels made me wonder... in reality, if you got caught worlds away from your family and provisions does it make sense to try to make a thousand mile trip, possibly without a motor vehicle, in the midst of post-SHTF lawlessness? I know my emotions would tell me: get out of the car load up your AR mags, unsling your rifle, strap your pistol on your hip, slip your pack on your back, and get walking....

But, does this make rational sense?

Any thoughts on getting caught far afield (military overseas or businessman on a trip) from home during a SHTF?

One thing it makes me realize is that all my plans will be wasted if I don't have others ready to implement them if I am away.


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## alwaysready

As long as I'm in CONUS I would walk I know there would be no guarantee that I would make it. But my family is the most important thing in life. I know it wouldn't be easy I would not walk on roads and would avoid all contact with others. Better safe than dead as I have said it won't be easy but neighter would living in unfamilier suroundings.


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## PrepN4Good

One of my greatest fears is an EMP & having to walk to our BOL (100 mi). The thought of it (for 2 middle-aged people) turns my stomach. I have a bike, but it's pretty hilly country. 

But, what other choice is there?

(Could be worse...one of our group travels overseas frequently; I know this is a great fear of his, to be caught in China.)


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## urbanprepping

Alot of us have the same thought. But in the event per se. You could get transport a horse, a bike. You need to keep wits about you and always look to see what's around you. 1k is a haul but you could do it if needed.


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## LincTex

PrepN4Good said:


> One of my greatest fears is an EMP & ... The thought of it turns my stomach. But, what other choice is there?


Well....

Any 70' to 90's model domestic car or truck can be easily made to run again with just a few spare parts stashed in a metal box behind the seat. I really don't think you have much to fear about.

About $25 worth of electronic gizmos (safely stored) will get any 1986 (and down) Ford, Chevy or Dodge running again.


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## Tacitus

Padre said:


> ... in reality, if you got caught worlds away from your family and provisions does it make sense to try to make a thousand mile trip, possibly without a motor vehicle, in the midst of post-SHTF lawlessness? I know my emotions would tell me: get out of the car load up your AR mags, unsling your rifle, strap your pistol on your hip, slip your pack on your back, and get walking....
> 
> But, does this make rational sense?


I think it does. That is my plan. If an EMP hits me (I am in the zone of effect), I will start my journey the moment it happens (gather supplies and walk), while others are standing around trying to figure out what happened. Maybe I will get a few days travel in before the mayhem hits. Men made it across the country (the US in my case) largely on foot in the past...or died trying. I can do it today...or die trying. The dying part is beyond my control; but I do control the "trying" part. Because I have thought about this, I don't expect to experience panic; rather, I expect to experience fear with focus. I plan to act with purpose...more purpose than I exhibit in my current life. Disasters can provide focus, because as they destroy worldly things, they also destroy all the petty things competing for our attention, all the things that distract us from the important things in life.

But note: I have family to get to. If I didn't have a wife and kids, I would consider other options.

I worry more about traveling family members. What would my daughter off at college do? My wife wants to go to NYC with that daughter next year. If an EMP hit then, and we were both in the zone of effect, I honestly think I would have to resign myself to never seeing them again--that would be more crushing to me. At least if I were the one traveling, I would know my wife would be the one home with the supplies.

Now, if I'm out of the country, or outside the zone of effect, I will spend my time trying to figure out how to volunteer for an aid organization...trying to organize some air-dropped aid into my area (with me leading the way on a one way trip).


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## Tacitus

LincTex said:


> About $25 worth of electronic gizmos (safely stored) will get any 1986 (and down) Ford, Chevy or Dodge running again.


Do you know of any good sites or publications out there which list these parts for those of us who know nothing about automobile engines? Misinformation on EMP seems to be a big problem on the Internet.


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## hiwall

> Misinformation on EMP seems to be a big problem on the Internet.


Boy is that a true statement. Most of what you read about EMP effects is all supposition.


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## LincTex

Tacitus said:


> Do you know of any good sites or publications out there which list these parts for those of us who know nothing about automobile engines? Misinformation on EMP seems to be a big problem on the Internet.


Well, any engine needs three things to run. 
1) Compression (a sound engine in good condition)
2) proper fuel air/mix
3) ignition source.

1) and 2) are not affected by an EMP, if the engine uses a carburetor (not EFI). Many folks believe an EFI vehicle might just be restarted with no difficulty. Who knows for sure?

If you have 1 and 2 working fine (no electricity needed) Number 3 needs electricity, if the vehicle runs on gasoline.
Some folks believe an older vehicle with ignition points (apprx 1971 and earlier, or a newer vehicle that has been converted ) is the way to go... I suppose that would be fine, but as long as you have an spare electronic ignition module from any of these vehicles, you will have "spark" back in minutes. You can go with stock, or aftermarket. The MSD website has wiring diagrams for all popular systems. By studying the wiring colors, you can mix and match components and vehicles easily.

Just search the web for:* "GM hei module swap"*
See these: http://www.carbdford.com/tech/HEI/hei.htm (NOTE: purple and orange wires should be swapped!)
http://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15779
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/converting-gm-hei-1154582/

Even works on motorcycles:
http://xs650temp.proboards.com/thread/7899
(Take note of this statement within: "If you want to trigger it with points then I would suggest a Ford TFI module. It has the best dwell control I've seen in a factory unit and clamps the current at 7 amps. You want the gray module, not the black one.I was originally planning to use a TFI module triggered by points. I've done it on old cars. You will never burn points again but you will still need to adjust them periodically.")

Hondas and Kawasakis:
http://home.comcast.net/~loudgpz/GPZweb/index.html#home
http://home.comcast.net/~loudgpz/GPZweb/Ignition/CBheiModCavCoil.html

And with a little more work, with points:
http://home.comcast.net/~loudgpz/GPZweb/Ignition/GPZheiModForPoints.html

To keep number 3 going (ignition) you need to keep the battery charged. To do that, just keep a spare alternator protected and ready to swap on (with needed tools). You can get one from an auto wrecking yard (or many garage sales, even!) for pretty cheap, sometimes rebuilds can be had for $29. Look around hard enough and you'll probably find someone to give you an old one they aren't using. Again, these can be swapped between vehicles very easily with just a little studying of how just a few number of wires function (familiarize yourself with the terms "field" and "stator" and you have it!). I have mixed and matched more alternators between cars, trucks, tractors and even airplanes (yes, you read that right) than I can remember. Pretty much the same three wires for nearly any of them.

Rebuilding an alternator is really easy to do.


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## LincTex

Alternatively.... there are mechanically injected diesels, like the 3.9L-4BTA Cummins diesel I swapped in my F-250. If I can coast down a hill and pop the clutch in 3rd, it needs zero electricity ever. (a fact they conveniently left out in the TV show *Revolution* )

I also think any older engine with a magneto should handle an EMP pulse.


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## TheLazyL

I'm _trying_ to write a story and my problem is reversed.

Wife and I are at the midway BOL. I leave for 3 days to bring in the son and his family. We return and find out my wife took her bicycle and went looking for her mother 2 cities over.

Do I go with the son and family to the final BOL, send him and his wife and I stay for the wife's hopeful return or do we all stay?


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## Tacitus

Thanks, LincTex. My concern in the past has been that microprocessors are used to run these engines now (not just start them), and to control the optimum time for cylinder ignition, and what not. (I make this statement with much ignorance, so feel free to correct me.) So, my concern was that even if I could start an engine on a newer model, it might die or not run well. And even if it would run, I might not be able to control it very well as I sit in a modern car's "cockpit" filled with electronics. 

But, perhaps the basics are there for running and controlling the engine and steering the car in the mechanical and hydraulic subsystems, without microprocessors. Perhaps all the microprocessors that are on cars nowadays are there to control radios, backup cameras, on-star, airbags, tire sensors, engine monitors, etc., and perhaps the failures of those microprocessors won't affect my ability to drive a car. If so, then the EMP will not be as big a catastrophe as I fear, which is great news. It would be bad, but as long as the country can get farm equipment and trucks running again, and as long as we can fix generators for water purification and pumping, people will be able to eat.


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## readytogo

*My honest opinion???*

I really don`t think on things like this any more than I think on Super Bowl Sunday for that matter, I rather think about the things that I really miss now like the change of seasons in nature or a perfect family camping trip under a lite snow , trout fishing , fresh mountain air , I`m sorry but my blood pressure goes up every time I have to go shopping. :beercheer:


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## LincTex

Tacitus said:


> But, perhaps the basics are there for running and controlling the engine and steering the car in the mechanical and hydraulic subsystems, without microprocessors.


Pretty much.... The biggest thing is stay away from anything that uses electric shift solenoids in the transmission - without a good computer, you ain't driving anywhere with one of those, even if you do get the engine running.

I also said _get 'er running_ - - I didn't say anything about getting stellar gas mileage or passing emissions tests! :factor10: :brickwall: :beercheer:
Actually, even EFI engines have a chance to make run (just not very well) by cobbling stuff together. But a getting a good carb'd engine running again is a piece of cake!!



Tacitus said:


> If so, then the EMP will not be as big a catastrophe as I fear, which is great news.


Well, it still depends, really. Who knows what will happen? I have two trucks and two motorcycles I can easily make run after an EMP, so I am not worried about it.



Tacitus said:


> It would be bad, but as long as the country can get farm equipment and trucks running again, and as long as we can fix generators for water purification and pumping, people will be able to eat.


As long as the EPA will quit making everybody trash their "less-than-Tier-III-emissions" diesels we can. Old agricultural diesels in Texas are still exempt. Kalifornia can go suck it!


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## ONEOLDCHIEF

TheLazyL said:


> I'm _trying_ to write a story and my problem is reversed.
> 
> Wife and I are at the midway BOL. I leave for 3 days to bring in the son and his family. We return and find out my wife took her bicycle and went looking for her mother 2 cities over.
> 
> Do I go with the son and family to the final BOL, send him and his wife and I stay for the wife's hopeful return or do we all stay?


First cut a good apple switch, have son and family wait two more days before going to final BOL, go find wife, switch her legs real good and tell her next time wait. Grab mother-in-law and everyone head to final BOL together...:2thumb:


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## Tacitus

readytogo said:


> ...my blood pressure goes up every time I have to go shopping.


Well, maybe an EMP would help you out in that regard!


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## Tacitus

LincTex said:


> Pretty much.... The biggest thing is stay away from anything that uses electric shift solenoids in the transmission - without a good computer, you ain't driving anywhere with one of those, even if you do get the engine running.


"Electric shift solenoids"...I assume that is not all automatics. Probably just high performance cars? I'm beginning to wonder if my next vehicle should be a manual transmission so that I have at least one.

Edit: I just found this on Wikipedia:

Shift solenoids
Modern electronic automatic transmissions have electrical solenoids which are activated to change gears. Simple electronic-control designs (such as Ford's AOD-E, AXOD-E and E4OD) use the solenoids to modify the shift points in an existing valve body, while more advanced designs (such as the Chrysler Ultradrive and its follow-ons) use the solenoids to control the clutches directly, by way of a greatly simplified valve body.


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## LincTex

Tacitus said:


> I'm beginning to wonder if my next vehicle should be a manual transmission so that I have at least one.


Preferably - you can always push start a manual, you can't do that with an automatic.

There are things called "standalone transmission control" (search it) to make an elctronic transmission shift, but I would suggest this option only at the extreme end.

anyways....

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_1203_transmission_controllers_tested/viewall.html

http://www.becontrols.com/

http://www.simple-shift.com/

http://www.tciauto.com/tc/ez-tcutm-...t-gm-4l60-4l65-4l70-4l80-and-4l85e-to-09html/

http://www.hgmelectronics.com/products-compushift-controllers/compushiftii

IN OTHER WORDS.... there are *ALWAYS* more than one way to skin a cat!!!


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## mosquitomountainman

If the electronics fail on a transmission you should still have forward and reverse (it just won't shift up to a higher gear). It's called the "limp" mode and is there to get the vehicle home or to a shop.


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## LincTex

mosquitomountainman said:


> If the electronics fail on a transmission you should still have forward and reverse (it just won't shift up to a higher gear). It's called the "limp" mode and is there to get the vehicle home or to a shop.


Driving home in first gear would suck (3 mpg?). Some cars no longer have a mechanical linkage whatsoever to the trans (100% electronic) so if it got zapped bad enough you would have no gears at all. If that's the case, too bad for you.

However... if sit down and study the correct wiring diagram, have a toggle switch (or two, or three!) and some wire and tape, I'll bet I could figure out how to energize the necessary solenoids to force it into gear. That's what those stand alone controllers are doing.

Oh well - - if you happen to see a blue '79 F-250 cruising by with a good ol' diesel rattle and a slight blue haze.....


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## Wellrounded

Reguardless of why I was stranded, I'd be heading home. I don't visit cities, don't go on holidays`etc so I'd be traveling in rural areas. I figure I'm more capable of looking after myself in the bush than around other people so that's where I'd go. I should add that I can't travel alone so I'd always have hubby with me. 
One of my 'hobbies' is to travel all possible routes to a destination. Every time we go somewhere we'll take any unknown roads we can. Over time I've got to know nearly every road within a couple of hundred miles (about how far we travel). 
I'd rather die making the attempt, than stay somewhere and be one of the 'new poor'.


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## Tirediron

Tacitus said:


> Thanks, LincTex. My concern in the past has been that microprocessors are used to run these engines now (not just start them), and to control the optimum time for cylinder ignition, and what not. (I make this statement with much ignorance, so feel free to correct me.) So, my concern was that even if I could start an engine on a newer model, it might die or not run well. And even if it would run, I might not be able to control it very well as I sit in a modern car's "cockpit" filled with electronics.
> 
> But, perhaps the basics are there for running and controlling the engine and steering the car in the mechanical and hydraulic subsystems, without microprocessors. Perhaps all the microprocessors that are on cars nowadays are there to control radios, backup cameras, on-star, airbags, tire sensors, engine monitors, etc., and perhaps the failures of those microprocessors won't affect my ability to drive a car. If so, then the EMP will not be as big a catastrophe as I fear, which is great news. It would be bad, but as long as the country can get farm equipment and trucks running again, and as long as we can fix generators for water purification and pumping, people will be able to eat.


Modern Ag equipment would be a big problem, if the computers were to fail, most AG systems are proprietary and only dealers have access to the scanners etc, I guess with nothing to loos and lots to gain people would start experimenting, or BlueZ's reports are correct and EMP won't effect ECUs (I wouldn't hold my breath, stanadyne can't get the fuel pump drive right for the GM 6.5 after 20 years.


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## Padre

Tacitus said:


> I think it does. That is my plan. If an EMP hits me (I am in the zone of effect), I will start my journey the moment it happens (gather supplies and walk), while others are standing around trying to figure out what happened. Maybe I will get a few days travel in before the mayhem hits.


I agree that if I am near my home the minute an EMP hits we pack and start walking the 250 miles to the BOL. Its a 30-40 day walk, but if I could just get out of the major metro area I live in my chances would be decent.

My question is if you were 5-6 months walk from home, passing through multiple urban areas to get there does it make sense to likely get yourself killed, particularly if you have no idea where your family will be after 6 months?

Horses I like.

I know very little about cars but if I see one working I would definitely be looking to barter security and/or gold for transport.


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## helicopter5472

Padre said:


> I agree that if I am near my home the minute an EMP hits we pack and start walking the 250 miles to the BOL. Its a 30-40 day walk, but if I could just get out of the major metro area I live in my chances would be decent.
> 
> My question is if you were 5-6 months walk from home, passing through multiple urban areas to get there does it make sense to likely get yourself killed, particularly if you have no idea where your family will be after 6 months?
> 
> Horses I like.
> 
> I know very little about cars but if I see one working I would definitely be looking to barter security and/or gold for transport.


Wow, That's quite a distance to your BOL, I would get a good bike at least with extra tire repair items, and build a rack in back.


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## Tirediron

IMO if for what ever reason Motor vehicles are not a viable mod of transport, a bicycle modified to run on train tracks would be a fairly good mode of transportation, it would need to be able to be converted back to road use to skirt urban and or damaged areas, Railways don't have very steep grades, & the efficiency of a highly inflated tire on steel would be a lot higher and quieter


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## VUnder

I would keep maps of every state between me and the house so I would know where to go if I was afoot. Just a simple map and compass won't take up much room.

If something did happen, I figure you might have a few hours of gettin away with having the only vehicle that runs. I do my best to stay within a few hours of home. Preferably less than two. I always have enough fuel to make it back too. Stations may not work either. 

Plus, having everybody at home informed of what to do if you don't make it back directly should be a priority. If they know you will walk back if you have to, but you are coming back, then they will feel good and secure until you do come back. Also, have a certain place or sign they will leave if they have to go away. Really, they should put the info in the secure place as soon as any trouble is suspected. They can always remove it if nothing comes of it. Let's say the police come up. Home folks can leave a note in the secret area that the police came. So, if you get home from your long walk, there will be a note, and you will know to start with the police to find them. If the police come and go, they can just throw the note out. But, if they do have to go with the police, you will at least know where to check. I hope this makes sense.

I drive old trucks. Kinda hard on gas, but I have no payments and cheap insurance, so I guess it works out. Everybody can't keep the old rides going, I realize. The next best thing is a good BOB, some good, comfortable shoes, be prepared to walk it out.

I did break down a couple weeks ago. In a newer vehicle. It was late, and I had just went down into Louisiana to get a few things. I lacked a few miles making it there. I walked on in. It was late and I didn't want to wake anybody to come get me. I was going to walk the twenty miles back to my house. Figured I could make it home before daylight. Luckily I got the vehicle to bust off and limped home stopping at every gas station and volunteer fire dept. along the way. I keep good walking shoes with me. I was also amazed at how many pit bull dogs are out chained up everywhere and out running loose. Walked right by the big billboard where ole Trace Atkins welcomes you to Webster Parish.

It seems important to be prepared. It is also important to be prepared to deal with not being prepared. Be resourceful, clever, ingenious, aware, take what you have and turn it into what you need. Kinda like buying all the tools but not knowing how to rebuild an engine. With tools being your survival gear and rebuilding the engine being your survival. You are better off knowing how to rebuild an engine, you can scrounge up enough make do tools, knowing what you can get away with, what you have to do and don't have to do and so on. Which goes back to self awareness, confidence in your abilities, knowledge and skill.

Horses are one thing that everyone could be learning about. There is a lot to a horse, a lot to know. It is not unlearnable, but the more time you spend around them, the more you will learn. Equestrian is a hands on deal. You need to be very familiar, which means hands on time. Just think of how much somebody tells someone to do with their dogs if they are going to be gone a few days. Horse, I only maybe get them to throw out some hay and drop some feed. I don't let anybody touch the horse. I know, in the old days on the cowboy movies, everybody used anybodys horse. But, those horses were used to different riders and everybody could ride good too. You let a horse have a bad experience and it will take years for it to get over that. I was married to a barrel racer once. We had a huge horse that she rode all the time. Woman was 6' tall. She bought a two horse trailer. I advised against it. Horse filled it up. The horse was always ready to come out soon after you arrived somewhere. I was just used to it, and always let him out first. Had him since a colt. I never tied him in the front. She tied him that day, when she took him to the vet. He went to pull back, and his back feet slipped up under him and he was in a sit down position with his head tied up high at the front. I wasn't there, and no matter how many pocket knives I gave that woman, nobody had one. Knot was drawed up too tight to undo and couldn't un snap at the halter. I guess they finally got the vet out there to cut him loose. The horse was 16 1/2 hands. For years I had major trouble to load him in a trailer. He rared up and caved the tops in on trailers. He was a handfull to load. A dangerous handfull.

Boy I work with had a horse he had raised from a baby. Still had the mare. Rode that horse several times a week, went to horse shows, entered in events. I am talking about keyhole, flag, buddy barrel pickup, cones, just a lot of horse events. One night he was loading the horse in the trailer to head home. Walked behind the horse like he did all the time. Horse kicked with both back feet in his stomach. Busted the boys guts. He now has a scar wide as my thumb from his chest down past his beltline where they had to do emergency repair on him. And, he knew better. If I have to walk behind one, I get real close and pat them on the hip as I cross. When you are three or four feet away, they can get some power in their punch. Just telling this so you can be careful.


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## hiwall

My wife and I have both spent alot of time around and riding horses. I can and will ride one if I have to but to me they are just a meat source.


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## Tirediron

the last 2 post bring up a great deal about horses and their use, a lot of people think they can use horses to solve SHTF, even if they have only ridden a rental horse at a dude ranch. horses require a lot of work and skill (as posted above) they will also be targets post SHTF, do you need another target near you.


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## pawpaw

LincTex said:


> Well....
> 
> Any 70' to 90's model domestic car or truck can be easily made to run again with just a few spare parts stashed in a metal box behind the seat. I really don't think you have much to fear about.
> 
> About $25 worth of electronic gizmos (safely stored) will get any 1986 (and down) Ford, Chevy or Dodge running again.


Perhaps an older vehicle could run as stated. Now, let's see...travel hundreds of miles unmolested by the transportation-impaired masses, much less Law Enforcement bent on commandeering your ride "For the public good" .
Traversing a metropolitan area littered with dead vehicles could be useless if it happened at bumper to bumper rush hour. Not to shoot down your knowledge of vehicles, I've just thought of that scenario endlessly for a long time.


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## Turtle

Padre said:


> I had the pleasure to visit OH, WV, VA, and NC the other week....
> 
> .


Funny that this particular drive would inspire you to ask this question, as it was the long drive from MD, through VA and WV, to OH which first got me playing the "what if..." game.

Having a pregnant wife at home? I would do everything I could to get home. Were I still single and otherwise unattached? It would depend largely upon the distance, what equipment I had with me, and the type of event which caused the issues in the first place.


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## TheLazyL

Turtle said:


> ...Were I still single and otherwise unattached? It would depend largely upon the distance, what equipment I had with me, and the type of event which caused the issues in the first place.


Wouldn't "home" be wherever you are?


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## Turtle

TheLazyL said:


> Wouldn't "home" be wherever you are?


Exactly. At that point, you are only trying to get back to stuff. I can get more stuff. But I'll never find another of my family.


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## Idaholady

I often travel over 900 miles from Idaho to CA to visit family. I now carry a BOB, tent, water and extra food. I have often thought about this 'what if' scenario. All I can say is that I'd grab my maps and try to walk to whichever location was the closest; either to CA or back to Idaho. I've considered taking a bike with me too; better than walking. I hope I never have to experience this kind of situation.


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## talob

I asked myself this what if question a couple of months ago while I was driveing around downtown Housten Texas, sure wasent a pleasent thought!


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## Toffee

Given that we rarely travel outside of our city or even then, outside of the state, our biggest issue would be whether to try for home or stop by my dad's house and help him first. If we were close enough to him, we would stop there and try to get him at least partly set up and then continue home. I would likely stay near the highway, because I don't want any farmers or ranchers thinking I'm trying to steal their stuff.


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## LincTex

One other thing.....

You can always swap an older engine into a newer vehicle/chassis.


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## BillS

I'd still head home because I don't know any other area very well and my family is here. That being said, I don't travel much. I've only been 150 miles away once or twice in the last 5 years. Given the way things are now there's no way I'd travel 1,000 miles away for any reason.

I'm not as concerned about an EMP as I am the collapse of the dollar. At some point there will be people stranded at airports because the airlines can't afford the jet fuel. Gas will get too expensive for people to buy. Our electric bills will get too expensive and the entire system will collapse.

I've read different things online warning about something big happening early in October. I think we'll see a stock market crash in October. That's when they usually happen and the stock market is riper for one now than in any time since the 1920s. I think we're looking at a 1929 type of crash and not a 1987 type of crash.

There are still rumblings of World War III too. There's been talk about war with Iran.


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## Magus

You know, any of those sensitive things from the more modern cars can be stored in a Friday cage and will be good to go after the event right?



BillS said:


> I'd still head home because I don't know any other area very well and my family is here. That being said, I don't travel much. I've only been 150 miles away once or twice in the last 5 years. Given the way things are now there's no way I'd travel 1,000 miles away for any reason.
> 
> I'm not as concerned about an EMP as I am the collapse of the dollar. At some point there will be people stranded at airports because the airlines can't afford the jet fuel. Gas will get too expensive for people to buy. Our electric bills will get too expensive and the entire system will collapse.
> 
> I've read different things online warning about something big happening early in October. I think we'll see a stock market crash in October. That's when they usually happen and the stock market is riper for one now than in any time since the 1920s. I think we're looking at a 1929 type of crash and not a 1987 type of crash.
> 
> There are still rumblings of World War III too. There's been talk about war with Iran.


Good ol BillS is a wise man in a lot of ways.a man would have to be pretty self assured not to admit that many of his posts make one think, sometimes a LOT.

Anyone notice major disasters come in threes?example:
9/11_Katrina_ bubble burst.
Sometimes they are directly intertwined as dominoes, sometimes not.I get the Idea, maybe the revelation, from BillS and others, that as soon as the nightmare has passed, get ready for the next one on its heels.


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## LincTex

Magus said:


> You know, any of those sensitive things from the more modern cars can be stored in a Friday cage and will be good to go after the event right?


Most alternators can be rebuilt pretty easily, but I would just keep an entire spare unit handy. The ignition module for older vehicles is the size of a pack of playing cards, but ECU computers for newer vehicles are the size of small phone book.


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## dixiemama

This is prob very ignorant and please forgive me, but would the entire phone system be down? We have a bunch of land line, 1950's-1970's phones that still work, in storage. Could we use them after an EMP to contact our group if they aren't here?


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## Tirediron

dixiemama said:


> This is prob very ignorant and please forgive me, but would the entire phone system be down? We have a bunch of land line, 1950's-1970's phones that still work, in storage. Could we use them after an EMP to contact our group if they aren't here?


I believe that most of the switching equipment (the stuff that makes the connection to the number that you dialed) has been replaced with computerized electronics, and would probably get fried, because of the amount of wire involved


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## dixiemama

Thanks. We are trying to figure out how to communicate with those of our group that we would have to go get. Back to the drawing board....


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## PipLogan

dixiemama said:


> Thanks. We are trying to figure out how to communicate with those of our group that we would have to go get. Back to the drawing board....


Not to sound to old fashioned, there are certain members of our group that communicate with homing pigeons. Its fascinating! Idk if an emp would mess with their brains and homing abilities but its just another tool in the tool box.


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## LincTex

Tirediron said:


> ...most of the switching equipment (the stuff that makes the connection to the number that you dialed) has been replaced with computerized electronics, and would probably get fried,


Correct, all phone lines use fiber optic cable to transmit light signals for you conversation. All of that would be toast along with microwave signal towers. Your old phones are only good for a local circuit that still uses the old relays, and that's very doubtful.


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## dixiemama

All I know is if our power is out, our landlines work. 2/3 of the county was without power one winter and only those with hard line phones could communicate with anyone. I don't know what our company uses but its worth checking out.


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## TheLazyL

dixiemama said:


> All I know is if our power is out, our landlines work. 2/3 of the county was without power one winter and only those with hard line phones could communicate with anyone. I don't know what our company uses but its worth checking out.


Power to operate your phone (not including cordless phones) comes from the Telephone Company. TC is required to have 8 hours minimum of batteries plus generator.


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## TheLazyL

LincTex said:


> ... all phone lines use fiber optic cable to transmit light signals for you conversation....


Wellllll...technically majority of telephone lines are still copper.

Interconnections between Telcos are mostly fiber optic cable. Fiber optic cable is "glass". And glass does not conduct electricity and there by will survive an EMP. BUT the electronics on both ends of the fiber optic cable in all probability be fired to a crisp.


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## Tirediron

So if one knew where to look they could probably set up their own communication system with in a local area, one giant party line


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## dixiemama

So I'm gonna keep my old rotary dial phones in hopes they will work. Would a Faraday cage be necessary? Like I said, they are from the 50's-70's.


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## LincTex

dixiemama said:


> So I'm gonna keep my old rotary dial phones in hopes they will work. Would a Faraday cage be necessary? Like I said, they are from the 50's-70's.


They will only be good to your closest switching control panel, no calls will likely go further than that (and only until the batteries run dead). You might be able to talk between neighbors, that is all. Long-distance would be a definite "no way".

If a true major EMP wipes out the phone company *system*, your old rotary phones won't be of much use.


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## LincTex

Tirediron said:


> So if one knew where to look they could probably set up their own communication system with in a local area, one giant party line


You would still need a way of powering it somehow, but yes that is theoretically possible.


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## Mase92

LincTex said:


> Well, any engine needs three things to run.
> 1) Compression (a sound engine in good condition)
> 2) proper fuel air/mix
> 3) ignition source.
> 
> 1) and 2) are not affected by an EMP, if the engine uses a carburetor (not EFI). Many folks believe an EFI vehicle might just be restarted with no difficulty. Who knows for sure?
> 
> If you have 1 and 2 working fine (no electricity needed) Number 3 needs electricity, if the vehicle runs on gasoline.
> Some folks believe an older vehicle with ignition points (apprx 1971 and earlier, or a newer vehicle that has been converted ) is the way to go... I suppose that would be fine, but as long as you have an spare electronic ignition module from any of these vehicles, you will have "spark" back in minutes. You can go with stock, or aftermarket. The MSD website has wiring diagrams for all popular systems. By studying the wiring colors, you can mix and match components and vehicles easily.
> 
> Just search the web for:* "GM hei module swap"*
> See these: http://www.carbdford.com/tech/HEI/hei.htm (NOTE: purple and orange wires should be swapped!)
> http://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15779
> http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/converting-gm-hei-1154582/
> 
> Even works on motorcycles:
> http://xs650temp.proboards.com/thread/7899
> (Take note of this statement within: "If you want to trigger it with points then I would suggest a Ford TFI module. It has the best dwell control I've seen in a factory unit and clamps the current at 7 amps. You want the gray module, not the black one.I was originally planning to use a TFI module triggered by points. I've done it on old cars. You will never burn points again but you will still need to adjust them periodically.")
> 
> Hondas and Kawasakis:
> http://home.comcast.net/~loudgpz/GPZweb/index.html#home
> http://home.comcast.net/~loudgpz/GPZweb/Ignition/CBheiModCavCoil.html
> 
> And with a little more work, with points:
> http://home.comcast.net/~loudgpz/GPZweb/Ignition/GPZheiModForPoints.html
> 
> To keep number 3 going (ignition) you need to keep the battery charged. To do that, just keep a spare alternator protected and ready to swap on (with needed tools). You can get one from an auto wrecking yard (or many garage sales, even!) for pretty cheap, sometimes rebuilds can be had for $29. Look around hard enough and you'll probably find someone to give you an old one they aren't using. Again, these can be swapped between vehicles very easily with just a little studying of how just a few number of wires function (familiarize yourself with the terms "field" and "stator" and you have it!). I have mixed and matched more alternators between cars, trucks, tractors and even airplanes (yes, you read that right) than I can remember. Pretty much the same three wires for nearly any of them.
> 
> Rebuilding an alternator is really easy to do.


Thank you for this post full of solid info.

Question for you as you seem to have a good grasp of this info? Do you not think or feel most or some cars due to the engine compartment shape would act as a faraday cage in a sense?


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## Caribou

I would not expect to survive a thousand mile walk though a healthier person might. I would head to a closer friend or family member. 

My first act would be to disconnect the battery on my car, let it sit for a bit and then reconnect the battery. This might reboot some of the microprocessors in the car. The vehicle, being metal, should provide some, though imperfect, protection to the electronics. A chip might be fried in which case, oops. Another chip might not be affected at all. Some chips might not be totally fried but just knocked for a loop, so to speak. These chips might reboot. It would be inconvenient if the wipers didn't work or the windows wouldn't go up and down but if the car ran I would be happy enough.

As far as the phones go, some systems will probably be up just because some will be stronger of take a lesser hit. Some of the systems will be repaired at some point. Once the system is up you will need a functional phone. Don't expect working phones to be available in the stores for an extended period. If your phone is fried so will be the ones on the shelves in the store.


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## hiwall

I wonder if a solar flare(CME) strong enough could short out humans brains? Thinking about it for a possible book idea I have.


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## Reblazed

hiwall said:


> I wonder if a solar flare(CME) strong enough could short out humans brains?


Just my opinion .... but many don't require ANY solar flare ... they shorted out long ago. 

.


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## Tacitus

hiwall said:


> I wonder if a solar flare(CME) strong enough could short out humans brains? Thinking about it for a possible book idea I have.


Seems highly unlikely. As a reader, I would have a hard time suspending disbelief. You would need a fair amount of work on the setup of your premise.

Human brains are bio-chemical networks, not electrical. Electrical circuits are affected by EMP because the gates of transistors are blown. Human brains have neurons, not transistors. Each neuron performs the function of dozens if not hundreds of transistors, and there is no "gate" which can be blown by EMP or solar flare.

Perhaps you can use a near-Earth supernova for the premise of your book. The radiation from that would expose us to harmful solar and cosmic radiation...basically, it would be an extinction event. Maybe you could propose a new type of scientific phenomena...a hybrid, and heretofore undiscovered supernova-flare?  Use the old Star Trek standby, and say it affects human brains because it is at a "different frequency" than normal solar flares. (I think Treknobabble relies on abuse of the term "frequency" for many a plot line.) I'm not saying it is likely to be real. I'm just offering a suggestion for the fiction part of your science fiction. Still probably a reach. I hereby assign my rights in this idea to you, as long as you put a cryptic mention of "Tacitus" somewhere in the book.


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## DFlynt

Mase92 said:


> Thank you for this post full of solid info.
> 
> Question for you as you seem to have a good grasp of this info? *Do you not think or feel most or some cars due to the engine compartment shape would act as a faraday cage in a sense?*


Only thing I can see that might be wrong with your thought is that a Faraday cage is usually grounded to the actual earth, I'm not sure if the tires on a vehicle might interfere with that ground. :dunno: I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.


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## Tacitus

Welcome to the forum, Festus.


DFlynt said:


> Only thing I can see that might be wrong with your thought is that a Faraday cage is usually grounded to the actual earth, I'm not sure if the tires on a vehicle might interfere with that ground. :dunno: I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.


There is a tremendous debate as to whether Faraday cages need to be grounded. I am of the "grounding is unnecessary" school. I think they shield, or they don't. Others will jump to disagree with me, to be sure. I suspect the biggest reason a car's frame would not act as a shield would be the gaps--it does not totally surround. It could provide some attenuation, I suppose.


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## Caribou

DFlynt said:


> Only thing I can see that might be wrong with your thought is that a Faraday cage is usually grounded to the actual earth, I'm not sure if the tires on a vehicle might interfere with that ground. :dunno: I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.


Actually, small faraday cages, smaller than room size, work better if they are not grounded. Grounding a faraday cage is quite complicated and if done improperly it can actually act as an antenna. The potential gain of grounding a small faraday cage is outweighed by the potential loss.


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## Tirediron

OR the whole metal body acts as an antenna and fries all the diodes and transistors etc:brickwall:


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## Tacitus

Tirediron said:


> OR the whole metal body acts as an antenna and fries all the diodes and transistors etc:brickwall:


There is that. (Don't hurt your head on that wall!  )


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## Caribou

Tirediron said:


> OR the whole metal body acts as an antenna and fries all the diodes and transistors etc:brickwall:


There is always that possibility. :dunno:

The only thing that would tick me off more than having my car circuits fried is to be five miles down the road and have my car pass me with a stranger at the wheel. :brickwall: I'll take a few minutes and try disconnecting the battery, what can it hurt?


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## Country Living

Our mechanic said to disconnect the battery, assuming the car wasn't running when the EMP hit, and to wait about 15 minutes before reconnecting the battery. If the car doesn't start then, it's not going to start. All bets are off if the car is running. We carry tools in each car to loosen the battery cables so they can be removed and we also carry an extra set to "loan" to people who are stranded in the same area. That may sound chivalrous; however, it's purely self-serving so we can get on the road and not leave a bunch of people wondering why we didn't help them with their batteries. 

We have 1996 and 1997 models that have computers; but, not all the whiz-bang stuff you see in the newer cars.


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## Ezmerelda

Ok, I just had a brainstorm. A Faraday cage can be as simple as an old microwave, or as complex as a system of copper mesh, right?

So, if you threaded copper throughout a fabric car cover, one long enough to reach itself under the vehicle on all sides and overlap slightly, with buckles to hold it together, would that act as a Faraday cage for your vehicle?


Theoretically speaking, of course. I realize that much of what we "know" is conjecture, since motor vehicles have changed greatly since the U.S. was involved in nuclear testing.


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## Tacitus

Country Living said:


> Our mechanic said to disconnect the battery, assuming the car wasn't running when the EMP hit, and to wait about 15 minutes before reconnecting the battery. If the car doesn't start then, it's not going to start. All bets are off if the car is running....


My plan is to abandon my car in place. If it stops running, and doesn't start immediately, I can't think of a law of physics that would allow it to "cool down" from an EMP blast. Apologies, but unless your mechanic has a degree in physics or experience with semiconductor design and manufacturing, I'm not sure his opinion means much. I'm not 100% sure an EMP will disable my car, but if I'm on a highway with hundreds of other stopped cars, and people are standing around...I'll know its time to hoof it out of there as soon as possible.


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## Tacitus

Ezmerelda said:


> ...if you threaded copper throughout a fabric car cover, one long enough to reach itself under the vehicle on all sides and overlap slightly, with buckles to hold it together, would that act as a Faraday cage for your vehicle?


Yes and no. It would be a Faraday cage. Would it protect against EMP induced radiation? I don't know. You may need a full metal cover, and a mesh may not be enough. I honestly do not know


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## Caribou

Ezmerelda said:


> Ok, I just had a brainstorm. A Faraday cage can be as simple as an old microwave, or as complex as a system of copper mesh, right?
> 
> So, if you threaded copper throughout a fabric car cover, one long enough to reach itself under the vehicle on all sides and overlap slightly, with buckles to hold it together, would that act as a Faraday cage for your vehicle?
> 
> Theoretically speaking, of course. I realize that much of what we "know" is conjecture, since motor vehicles have changed greatly since the U.S. was involved in nuclear testing.


Parking your car inside a mesh cage should do just fine. The mesh needs to be smaller than the frequency of the EMP and needs to cover all six sides. Any gaps will allow access to the EMP. If your cell phone works inside the cage an EMP can reach you.


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## Tirediron

I have seen ECU failures that could be nursed a bit further after a reboot, if the shutdown was overcharged, but not blown capacitor related, the reboot might allow for it to function, studies have shown both results , so until it happens no one knows, thus if at all possible we take a fully mechanical vehicle on longer away trips. And make sure to "file a flight plan" when on short trips.


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## LincTex

If all of us would just get proficient with MegaSquirt we would never again have to worry ever! (as long as we had spare components)

It's EFI for all... folks have even put them on single cylinder Briggs & Stratton engines!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MegaSquirt
http://www.diyautotune.com/
http://www.megamanual.com/index.html
http://www.msextra.com/

Honestly ... fuel delivery is no biggie. I can swap an S&S Super E carb from a Harley onto nearly any vehicle's throttle body and have fuel delivery. A 5 gallon gas can, a $20 fuel pump and $10 worth of hose, and VOILA!! Fuel problems have now been manged. (not exceptionally - just adequately)

Now, getting spark is a bigger deal. C-O-P systems and coil packs systems are far more complex than a good ol' fashioned distributor (with just one ignition coil)


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## offgridcooker

I am skeptical of this whole EMP thing. I do not believe it will be as sever or as wide spread. 
Could someone refer me to some reliable information if there is any such thing about the subject. 
It may have to happen to really know.


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## LincTex

offgridcooker said:


> Could someone refer me to some reliable information if there is any such thing about the subject. It may have to happen to really know.


*
NO ONE....* _really knows!! _

We can only speculate.... Therefore, consider the WORST case scenario.

Me? Well, while the rest of the world goes back to the steam age, I'll still be gardening with diesel tractors that need no electricity, or old magneto-fired Farmalls running on woodgas!


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## hiwall

offgridcooker said:


> I am skeptical of this whole EMP thing. I do not believe it will be as sever or as wide spread.
> Could someone refer me to some reliable information if there is any such thing about the subject.
> It may have to happen to really know.


It has happened in the past. It could/will happen again. Read this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859


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## Hooch

lets just hope none of you all are in a big heavy airplane when and if it happens...k 

or anywhere near a nuke plant...but if your near a nuke plant youd have 3 days to get far far away and upwind.. so a working vehicle might be a good thing to have..

thatd be a good thing to reasearch..any who has to escape the nuke plants to make sure they dont come into the terrirory of another melt down nuke plant evac zone...what a mess...ugg..

meteors from comet ison debris tail in january might be interesting. Earth will have something like 14 days of traveling through its tail field as its leaving away from our sun and earth and their might be stuff left over trailing in its path towards the sun. The earth passes that unknown at the end of the 14 days we traverse through its field heading out. Could be a double whammy or nothing... And no one knows what it brings and leaves behind. could be nothing our atmosphere cant burn up or could be lots of rocks. 
google Stereo comet ison to check out its path..its interesting to look at. 

ok im rambling..sorry..it all be interesting tho..


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## Tacitus

offgridcooker said:


> I am skeptical of this whole EMP thing. I do not believe it will be as sever or as wide spread.
> Could someone refer me to some reliable information if there is any such thing about the subject.


This might be a good starting place for you:

:radioactive: Commission to Assess the Threat to the United States from Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Attack

This too:

:radioactive: One Second After (Looks like the forum died a long time ago, but the site still has some information. The book is worth a read. [Edit: The book is fiction, but the story takes place within the context of a comprehensive EMP--basically, the worst case scenario.])

EMP has to be among the top 10 topics on the Internet, as measured by the amount of *dis*information on the topic present on the Internet. There are a lot of self-proclaimed experts.

But few deny that the effect is real--it was experienced in small part in past air burst nuke tests. We don't know how bad it will be, because nuclear tests are now prohibited, so we can't test newer electronics. It is generally believed that with each generation of semiconductors, as the transistors get smaller and smaller, they become more and more susceptible to EMP effects. The military has (at least in the past) sought out "rad-hard" electronics that can withstand EMP and other radiation effects because of the increased susceptibility of newer electronics. Civilian electronics are manufactured without regard to radiation hardening.


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## Country Living

Lights Out is a pretty good book about post-EMP survival.


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