# A Funny Thing Happened at Walmart today...



## fteter

So I ran out to the local Walmart today to pick up a few things. As I'm planning on doing some target shooting with the adult kids over the next week or so, I thought I'd swing by the ammo counter to pick up a little 7.62x39 for my SKS rifle.

When I get to the counter, there is plenty of 7.62x39. Stacked high and deep. So I ask for 10 boxes...shoot some and top off my supply a bit. The clerk points to a big sign: "3 box limit per caliber per customer - applies to ALL ammunition". When I mention that this was not the policy as recently as six days ago, said clerk explained that the word came down from corporate this week. The logic: with the federal US government putting out a solicitation for bid in order to purchase a huge amount of .223 ammo, the corporate folks figured it would impact available materials for all bullet production in the U.S. and decided to start protecting their supply chain now. Not sure I buy it, but that's the explanation I got from the local Walmart.

After leaving the store, I did some research on "the big government solicitation". I found the solicitation on FedBizOpps.gov:

_Solicitation Number:
HSBP1015R0025
Notice Type:
Presolicitation
Synopsis:
Added: Apr 13, 2015 2:13 pm
U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) intends to solicit offers to Request for Proposal (RFP) HSBP1015R0025 for .223 Remington (.223 Rem) Caliber Training Ammunition for Department of Homeland Security (DHS) locations nationwide, including those in the continental U.S., Alaska, Hawaii, Guam, the Northern Marianna Islands, Puerto Rico, and U.S. Virgin Islands. HSBP1015R0025 is scheduled to be issued on, or about, April 30, 2015.

This requirement will be procured as a full and open competition.

The purpose of this solicitation is to achieve price savings over the current .223 Rem duty ammunition. The Government reserves the right to cancel this solicitation in its entirety if it feels this price savings cannot be reasonably achieved. Resulting award will be used for training/qualification only, not for duty use, and will be used as a direct substitution in lieu of procuring like quantities of duty ammunition. The requirement will result in an indefinite delivery/indefinite quantity (ID/IQ) contract against which individual delivery orders will be placed. Estimated quantity is approximately 12,600,000 (12.6 million) rounds of .223 Rem training ammunition per year, totaling 62,500,000 (62.5 million) over the life of the contract. Key criteria for the training ammunition includes, but is not limited to: being easily distinguishable from duty ammunition (both in packaging and cartridge appearance), and meeting ballistic criteria to insure officer competency requirements are achievable.

All items will be in accordance with the statement of work (SOW) and RFP that will be provided at time of solicitation issuance. The awarded contract will be for a period of five (5) years from date of award.

The applicable North American Industry Classification System (NAICS) code is 332992._

I'm not much for rumor-mongering, but it does cross my mind that the Walmart might have been giving me the straight story  Thoughts?


----------



## BillS

It sounds like you're getting the straight story. It's pretty clear that the federal government has been stockpiling large amounts of ammo for use against American citizens.


----------



## fteter

Since my original post, I've spent part of my day checking out the situation at other local outlets. Sportsman's Warehouse, Big 5 Sporting Goods, Scheel's: plenty of stock and no purchase limits other than .22lr. But I also checked several other Walmarts in the region: they're all on the three box limit for everything. Maybe it's just weirdness at WallyWorld? One can only hope...


----------



## Starcreek

Think they're buying up the ammo to keep the average Joe from having it? The last lead mine in the U.S. closed down about a year ago, so any lead is imported. And ammo for .22's has been scarce for over a year now.


----------



## squerly

BillS said:


> It sounds like you're getting the straight story. It's pretty clear that the federal government has been stockpiling large amounts of ammo for use against American citizens.


 I'm not saying you're wrong but do you have any data to substantiate this?


----------



## Starcreek

squerly said:


> I'm not saying you're wrong but do you have any data to substantiate this?


This was substantiated on several forums maybe a year ago (?), by links to the actual bid sheets online. They bought millions of rounds of ammo, even the Forest Service and the Dept. of Education purchased tons of ammo. Don't ask me what the purpose was, but I know it was well-documented. The info. is probably still around, if you want to do a search for it.


----------



## squerly

Starcreek said:


> This was substantiated on several forums maybe a year ago (?), by links to the actual bid sheets online. They bought millions of rounds of ammo, even the Forest Service and the Dept. of Education purchased tons of ammo. Don't ask me what the purpose was, but I know it was well-documented. The info. is probably still around, if you want to do a search for it.


Actually, I'm looking for info to support the ammo is going to be used against American citizens.


----------



## hiwall

> Actually, I'm looking for info to support the ammo is going to be used against American citizens.


Non-military gov agencies can only use ammo for practice or against US citizens. Many have explained that they actually use that much ammo for practice but you have to draw your own conclusions.


----------



## Balls004

I don't know, and to be truly honest, really don't care anymore, why any ammo, pick a caliber or gauge seems to be in stock everywhere, or non-existent on store shelves. 

I don't consider myself an ammo hoarder, and yes, I've got quite a bit put away, but it's not because I'm saving it for the end of the world. I have a lot of ammo, because I enjoy shooting, because I like reloading, and because I go through a lot if the weather will cooperate a little.

I look at it like this, if you are hoarding ammo and not shooting it, it is just going to be that much easier to take all that hoarded ammo if and when it's really needed. Think about it this way, how many 50 cal. ammo cans full of ammo can you carry more than a mile or two? 

The problem in my opinion, isn't that the government is buying up too much, but that people are buying up ammo for unrealistic reasons. Either that they are going to defend their location like the Alamo (anyone remember how that turned out?) or that they will be able to barter it or sell it should the SHTF. 

C'mon folks, I know of one "prepper" that has thousands of rounds (I'm talking about 10,000 plus) in every caliber, but never shoots them. It's kinda like watching one of those goofy hoarder shows on tv. If that's your plan, then drop the money for a full auto, belt fed gun and at least have some fun as you get overrun. 

Otherwise, buy a reasonable supply of ammo, shoot it and don't help inflate the ammo manufacturers profits.


----------



## Caribou

If the purchase of this practice ammo does reduce the amount of duty ammo purchased, as described in the add, then purchases should balance out.

Theory 17F:

In the recent ammo shortage my guess is that Walmart liked having everyone come in on a daily basis buying their ammo and, oh by the way since I'm here anyway, I might as well pick up a… If you want ten boxes of ammo you will now enter their store at least four times instead of just the one time today. You may also decide to pick up more than ten boxes because of the potential shortage. If enough people decide to stock up again then perhaps they can increase sales a bit.

Walmart just shut down five stores and laid off 2200 staff. Anything they can do to bring customers through the door...


----------



## Balls004

Caribou said:


> If the purchase of this practice ammo does reduce the amount of duty ammo purchased, as described in the add, then purchases should balance out.
> 
> Theory 17F:
> 
> In the recent ammo shortage my guess is that Walmart liked having everyone come in on a daily basis buying their ammo and, oh by the way since I'm here anyway, I might as well pick up a&#8230; If you want ten boxes of ammo you will now enter their store at least four times instead of just the one time today. You may also decide to pick up more than ten boxes because of the potential shortage. If enough people decide to stock up again then perhaps they can increase sales a bit.
> 
> Walmart just shut down five stores and laid off 2200 staff. Anything they can do to bring customers through the door...


Are you by chance one of the marketing geniuses that WallyWorld employs?
If not, send your resume!


----------



## Marcus

Starcreek said:


> The last lead mine in the U.S. closed down about a year ago, so any lead is imported.


I seem to recall that it was the last lead smelter that dealt with virgin lead that was shut down.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/10/20/remaining-lead-smelter-usa-closing/

After doing some research, I found that 94% of the lead used in bullets is recycled. The ammunition companies weren't expecting any supply issues since the Missouri facility only produced 150,000 tonnes a year or roughly a third of what was mined in the US. The other 2/3 of the production was smelted in other countries including Canada.

Most larger ammunition companies have their own electric furnaces which melt down the recycled lead. Melting it is cheaper since there are fewer environmental constraints due to the lower temperatures required for melting versus smelting. The only real pollution these furnaces produce is from trace contamination by oils, solvents, and sulphuric acid.


----------



## jnrdesertrats

I know a guy who talks way to much about his prepps, to anyone who will listen. He is single and caims to have massive amounts of ammo 20,000 plus. He is either full of it just stupid or both. One day I asked him how many gun fights he expected to survive? Or how much he could carry. Blank stare


----------



## bigg777

Let's see . . . Hillary declares for Prez, ammo gets rationed at WallyWorld.

Hmmm, something stinks around here!


----------



## sgtusmc98

Thought this was interesting, this is only one article and I don't know how reliable it is but the NRA has put out similar articles.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/342161/great-ammunition-myth-charles-c-w-cooke


----------



## zombieresponder

squerly said:


> I'm not saying you're wrong but do you have any data to substantiate this?





Marcus said:


> I seem to recall that it was the last lead smelter that dealt with virgin lead that was shut down.
> 
> http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/10/20/remaining-lead-smelter-usa-closing/
> 
> After doing some research, I found that 94% of the lead used in bullets is recycled. The ammunition companies weren't expecting any supply issues since the Missouri facility only produced 150,000 tonnes a year or roughly a third of what was mined in the US. The other 2/3 of the production was smelted in other countries including Canada.
> 
> Most larger ammunition companies have their own electric furnaces which melt down the recycled lead. Melting it is cheaper since there are fewer environmental constraints due to the lower temperatures required for melting versus smelting. The only real pollution these furnaces produce is from trace contamination by oils, solvents, and sulphuric acid.


Yep, unfortunately any new lead that is available will come from outside the U.S..



jnrdesertrats said:


> I know a guy who talks way to much about his prepps, to anyone who will listen. He is single and caims to have massive amounts of ammo 20,000 plus. He is either full of it just stupid or both. One day I asked him how many gun fights he expected to survive? Or how much he could carry. Blank stare


I have that much in .22 LR. I bought over a couple of years(and still buy when I find it at a reasonable price). When it came back after obaminations first "election", I made up my mind to stack it deep. Other stuff I don't have nearly as much of since I can always load more.

I suggest caches of ammo along routes of escape to BOL's.


----------



## readytogo

*Ammo for the taking........*

Just left the local range/store 24 hours ago and unless things change that quick there was no limit on ammo sales nor rumors that the government is planning to shoot USA citizens, my friend just got two 1000 rd. cases of .5.56 62g fmj with no problems and yes the local Wally has the 3 box limit in place but their shelves are full of ammo, so one way or another I have my ammo under lock and key and enough to feel safe and according to my sources the local armory is holding enough ammo for ww3 and beyond. I also wonder what Florida is going to do with all the high performance animal food under a DOD bid. Oh well zombie rumors...........


----------



## Magus

Not to throw fuel on the fire, BUT anyone notice the storable food drying up too?
Last I looked food wasn't canned in lead or brass. My two cents is "THEY" smell something BIG coming,
and it has little to do with the Gadsden flag waving crowd. My first guess is a Carrington event/ big meteor,
my second would be we're finally going to piss Russia off enough to take us out.[ON PURPOSE!]


----------



## fteter

Balls004 said:


> I don't consider myself an ammo hoarder, and yes, I've got quite a bit put away, but it's not because I'm saving it for the end of the world. I have a lot of ammo, because I enjoy shooting, because I like reloading, and because I go through a lot if the weather will cooperate a little.


Enjoyment of shooting - both me and my family - that's the primary reason I buy too. Yes, I'm socking some away for a rainy day, but I have no illusions about running and gunning after any kind of event. And when I buy in bulk, I do it online. I only use the local Walmart to top off, mostly for the sake of convenience.

My primary purpose in posting was to learn about what other folks were experiencing...was this just WallyWorld going nuts in my area (northern Utah) or was it the start of something more widespread? Seems like the former at this point...


----------



## Idaholady

I am beginning to think that Wal Mart and the government are starting to work together; something is amiss with those two; just wait and see....

When everything goes in the tank, there will still be one store standing; a Wal Mart.....that is why they have been putting one in every little town all over the place. It'll be a government store; where you will line up with everyone else to get your food, clothing or whatever......you'll see what I mean in the next 10-18 months or less.....


----------



## AdmiralD7S

Idaholady said:


> It'll be a government store; where you will line up with everyone else to get your food, clothing or whatever......you'll see what I mean in the next 10-18 months or less.....


Will we get a prize when that doesn't happen? I love "doomsday" and related predictions. I'll keep tabs on this one for you. See you on 24 October 2016...


----------



## Marcus

My local Wal Mart only has limits on 22. Everything else is get all you want. Perhaps it's a regional or distribution issue???


----------



## LastOutlaw

Anyone consider that all of the huge amounts of ammo purchased for departments that doesn't make sense like dept of ed and social security is merely being purchased to ship out of the country to support Obamas private army, ISIS or The Muslim Brotherhood? How about the cartels?


----------



## HamiltonFelix

> I am beginning to think that Wal Mart and the government are starting to work together; something is amiss with those two; just wait and see....


 Idaholady, that's pretty much a sure thing. Benito Mussolini said "Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is a merger of corporate and State power." We've been living under such a system for many years now. A corporation the size of Walmart undoubtedly owns enough congresscritters, etc. that it IS a sgnificant part of the "Government." Whether or not it works out exactly as you suggest, you can bet Walmart is part of "The Plan."


----------



## writerperson

*Writer Person*

Okay, if you're going to hoard something that you can't eat and you can't use, ammo is as good as any.

However, a long time ago I was given what I still think was excellent advice. Beyond a reasonable supply of food, clothing and blankets, the best thing to hoard is soap and toothpaste. That's because when things get really bad, people will trade their gold, diamonds and yes, ammo for a chance to be clean, or at least cleaner.

Writer Person


----------



## bigg777

Here is a staggering statistic, Roy Walton's family, of Walmart fame, has amassed wealth equal to that of the bottom 40% of America's entire population.:eyebulge:


----------



## Marcus

bigg777 said:


> Here is a staggering statistic, Roy Walton's family, of Walmart fame, has amassed wealth equal to that of the bottom 40% of America's entire population.:eyebulge:


Now here's a really staggering statistic:

*Biggg777* has amassed wealth equal to the bottom 20% of America's *entire population,* assuming he is worthless (ie. worth $0.) :eyebulge:

See Table A1 in the Appendix
https://www.census.gov/people/wealth/files/Wealth distribution 2000 to 2011.pdf

From what I recall but couldn't find, somewhere around 25% of Americans have a negative net worth.

*"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." Mark Twain*


----------



## TheLazyL

bigg777 said:


> Here is a staggering statistic, Roy Walton's family, of Walmart fame, has amassed wealth equal to that of the bottom 40% of America's entire population.:eyebulge:


And Roy Walton EARNED the "amassed wealth" by working hard, taking personal financial risks and investing long hours.

He didn't sit in a Taxpayer rented apartment, eating Taxpayer paid food complaining about how poor he was on a Taxpayer paid cell phone.


----------



## Starcreek

Are y'all talking about *SAM Walton*?


----------



## Marcus

Starcreek said:


> Are y'all talking about *SAM Walton*?


You mean it's not the card trick guy?


----------



## bigg777

Yes, Starcreek, I did mean Sam, and I am not denegrating the efforts or innovations he used to earn his family's wealth, the disparity is just an eye opener.


----------



## addseo1119

Nice posts. Thanks for sharing the information.


----------



## Mase92

Not seeing any restrictions at all. Other than .22LR.

I stock on what I need, just incase the next incident happens and the hoarders go into full gear and dry the market up again.

In total agreement with Balls004


> The problem in my opinion, isn't that the government is buying up too much, but that people are buying up ammo for unrealistic reasons. Either that they are going to defend their location like the Alamo (anyone remember how that turned out?) or that they will be able to barter it or sell it should the SHTF.
> 
> C'mon folks, I know of one "prepper" that has thousands of rounds (I'm talking about 10,000 plus) in every caliber, but never shoots them. It's kinda like watching one of those goofy hoarder shows on tv. If that's your plan, then drop the money for a full auto, belt fed gun and at least have some fun as you get overrun.


See that's common sense, that seems to be commonly lacking, more and more.


----------



## TheLazyL

I figure the shortage is because of 2 reasons. Listed below in priority by my reckoning. 

1. U.S.A. is/was fighting two wars. Military, during war time, has the tendency to shoot a lot more ammo then they do in peace time. I reckon that ammo manufacturers make more profit selling to the military then they do to civilians (IMHO). Make more profit on 50 caliber then 22 LR ammo. The production of 22's will just have to wait a bit.

Fill those Federal contracts has quickly as possible because when the wars are over so is the profit.

2. You have a Federal government that evidently isn't trusted. Hoarders are buying, Preppers are buying and Speculatives are buying. The production of 22's will just have to wait until things return to normal...if they do.


----------



## tsrwivey

TheLazyL said:


> And Roy Walton EARNED the "amassed wealth" by working hard, taking personal financial risks and investing long hours.
> 
> e.


Not to mention spending his money on ASSETS instead of liabilities & money wasters like cars, gadgets, gizmos, etc. & he passed those skills on to his kids & grandkids. Unlike most of Americas "poor" who get thousands in cash other people had to work for each year & blow it on big screens, iPhones, high dollar purses, car rims, stereo systems, etc. & pass those poor habits on to their kids.


----------



## Caribou

TheLazyL said:


> I figure the shortage is because of 2 reasons. Listed below in priority by my reckoning.
> 
> 1. U.S.A. is/was fighting two wars. Military, during war time, has the tendency to shoot a lot more ammo then they do in peace time. I reckon that ammo manufacturers make more profit selling to the military then they do to civilians (IMHO). Make more profit on 50 caliber then 22 LR ammo. The production of 22's will just have to wait a bit.
> 
> Fill those Federal contracts has quickly as possible because when the wars are over so is the profit.
> 
> 2. You have a Federal government that evidently isn't trusted. Hoarders are buying, Preppers are buying and Speculatives are buying. The production of 22's will just have to wait until things return to normal...if they do.


From what I understand they are making .22 as fast as they can. The factories are working around the clock. The demand has risen to this level. First, we have more new shooters than ever before and there is nothing better than .22 to learn on. Second, people are keeping larger stocks of ammo. Third, some people are hoarding .22. While 2 and 3 may seem the same I don't define them the same. I use about a brick at a range visit. Six years ago two or three bricks was adequate, now I want eight or ten bricks. That I define as increased inventory. There are people out there with tens of thousands of rounds of .22 and even a few with well over a hundred thousand rounds. That I define as hoarding.

It costs about 50 million to make a new .22 factory. While the increased number of shooters is probably a permanent rise in ammo usage it may well shift to other calibers. When people like me reach their new comfort level they quit buying. This is evidenced by increased availability of .22. Not too long ago I had to take what was available, now I can wait for my brand to show up.

Here is what I see happening if a new factory is opened. The stores suddenly have all the .22 that anybody wants. The hoarders quit buying and possibly even selling off large amounts. People like me become comfortable with smaller stocks so we don't buy any more for the next year while we shoot up our newly redefined excess. So, invest fifty million to sell fewer rounds or keep running your factory at maximum?


----------



## Marcus

TheLazyL said:


> I figure the shortage is because of 2 reasons. Listed below in priority by my reckoning.
> 
> 1. U.S.A. is/was fighting two wars. Military, during war time, has the tendency to shoot a lot more ammo then they do in peace time. I reckon that ammo manufacturers make more profit selling to the military then they do to civilians (IMHO). Make more profit on 50 caliber then 22 LR ammo. The production of 22's will just have to wait a bit.


That's not how it really works. The military manufactures their own ammunition (through contractors) at their own facilities. Here is an older but good article about the capabilities of the Lake City Ammunition Plant: http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues/SepOct10/spectrum_smallarms_ammo.html

The article states: "Over 99 percent of all small-arms bullets (5.56-millimeter [mm], 7.62-mm and .50-caliber) consumed by the Army under its Title 10 responsibility to supply and equip its forces are manufactured at the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant. Production demand is driven by current operational requirements; any production shortfalls at Lake City are outsourced to private companies within the United States." That means that *at most* the military buys 17.1 million rounds from private industry. *However,* it likely that number is much lower since common sense would tell a person that most of the private industry buys were probably high-end rounds for military snipers.

If you ever buy 5.56, you know some manufacturers claim to use Lake City brass. If the military had a shortage of ammunition, this brass would not be available.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_City_Army_Ammunition_Plant

A look at the employment statistics history for small arms ammunition manufacturers is telling. It's a bit hard to find, but only about 6700 people (of whom ~5200 were production employees) were employed in the industry in the late 1990s. In 2012, there were 10,026 total employees in the industry. So while demand has roughly doubled, the industry hasn't kept pace. BTW, the NAICS number is 332992 for small arms manufacturers in case anyone wants to do some more research.

Caribou is probably correct as to the reason why the 22 shortage hasn't eased since there seems to be a boom bust cycle in ammunition manufacturing. It appears we were in such a bust when demand suddenly skyrocketed.


----------



## sgtusmc98

As stupid as this sounds I know a guy that had to buy 9mm ammo at Walmart for his team before deploying to Iraq. And yes they were military but not infantry.


----------



## Balls004

TheLazyL said:


> He didn't sit in a Taxpayer rented apartment, eating Taxpayer paid food complaining about how poor he was on a Taxpayer paid cell phone.


I couldn't believe it, but the other day my wife and I ran across a "free cell phone service" tent, conveniently located near our "subsidized housing". I dang near blew a gasket!

Just when the hell did having a cell phone become a right?


----------



## hiwall

You have to remember that a million new guns are sold each MONTH here in the land of the free. That means a million people per month are looking for ammo for their new gun. 22 ammo can be bought now but the price is stupid. 223 ammo is readily available and is quite cheap now (brass cased ammo is $5 per box on up).


----------



## VoorTrekker

hiwall said:


> ...223 ammo is readily available and is quite cheap now (brass cased ammo is $5 per box on up)...


Quality 5.56 ammo? Or just .223 Rem.? Where is it at $5.00 for a box of twenty?


----------



## hiwall

Here is an easy way to find ammo deals on the internet. I've used it many times. Obviously the deals change everyday (though some last a week or more). I just ordered a case of PMC (which shoots very well in my gun) for $7 per box delivered.

http://www.slickguns.com/category/ammo?caliber=11


----------



## VoorTrekker

Those are great deals!


----------



## jeffreyclay

*So capable, so deluded*



jnrdesertrats said:


> I know a guy who talks way to much about his prepps, to anyone who will listen. He is single and caims to have massive amounts of ammo 20,000 plus. He is either full of it just stupid or both. One day I asked him how many gun fights he expected to survive? Or how much he could carry. Blank stare


Don't you love that type? They must have some sort of "Walter Mitty" running in their head. They see themselves being able to return fire against multiple platoons on all flanks and never taking a slug. Meanwhile they thinout the aggressors until they retreat. He'll probably radio his home base and tell his company, well probably just his wife, that he's coming in for a MRE and some creek water. His ghillie suit provides total cover. Once he reaches the 100 yard fire zone surrounding the hidden camp he taps out morse code on his Archer-"Space Patrol" walkie-talkie this phrase, "john has a long moustache". His wife responds on the megaphone, "OK dinner's ready" and his mission comes to a close. :nuts:


----------



## LilRedHen

In my small town, I can't find .22lr at all. The local feed store has had a pallet of just .22 on order for over 6 months. I found some at a yard sale a couple of weeks ago. I was getting real low; I don't practice and all I've got is an old single shot that I use on critters in the garden. I don't know what is going on around here.


----------



## Balls004

We are starting to see .22LR in reasonable amount around here, but some folks are gouging and some (I hate to say this, but Walmart) aren't. I buy it at the best price I can, but I won't buy it at the inflated prices. I figure that if they want to sit on it long enough that it starts becoming a burden on their bottom line, that is their choice. 

Same goes with everything else I shoot. Between reloading and having a pretty good stock to begin with, I'm willing to wait the leeches out on this one.


----------

