# This years garden



## Immolatus (Feb 20, 2011)

I just got around to working on the garden again. Having expanded it (I added another whopping 10x10' area to the existing 10x10!) I tilled up the ground, and will add about 4" of topsoil and leaf compost from the local nursery, and probably add a thin layer to the existing spot.
I was only workin on the new spot, the old spot is fill of one specific unidentified (does it really matter?) low growing flowering weed.
I am a total nOoB when it comes to gardening.

Some things I have noticed.
The garlic, strawberries, lemon balm and spearmint are still alive. The rosemary, which we dont use but smells good doesnt look much different from last year, it never died or turned brown.
The strawberries need to be moved out of the garden, maybe to the front as ground cover, as the plant expanded and is taking up too much space. Heres hoping I dont kill it in the process. Never got any berries, but one piece of advice I got said that it should this year and to keep it growing.
I am going to move the herbs to a different spot and try to devote the whole area to food only.

Anything else I should add to the soil?
The new area was a decorative rock (white gravel, which was a PITA to move) garden, so its a couple of inches lower than the rest, so the plan is to take off the top layer of the old area and put it in the new and cover it all over with the mix of soil/compost. I cant find anywhere local that has rotted manure (plenty of fresh, but I got nowhere to put that while it rots) so I'll have to forgo it.
It should be ready to go after next weekend, cant wait to get planting.


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## AlabamaGal (Dec 27, 2011)

A farm with manure may have a poop pile as big as your house. If they have a loader and are willing to load, ask them to dig around and get some from the middle; it should be pretty well composted inside. Another source is if your city has a yard waste program they probably have a municipal compost file.

Before going willy-nilly on additives, get a soil test done. If you can afford it get a one-time test for micronutrients & minerals done by Wallace Labs or a similar company. Otherwise, you local Ag Extension office, Master Gardeners program or possibly even a nursery will do an NPK test for you.

Rosemary is evergreen most places. It's nice to put by a window and watch the bees some to the blooms on a warm day in winter.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

AlabamaGal said:


> A farm with manure may have a poop pile as big as your house. If they have a loader and are willing to load, ask them to dig around and get some from the middle; it should be pretty well composted inside. Another source is if your city has a yard waste program they probably have a municipal compost file.


I dont want to be a wet blanket or sound like a broken record, but, before you get manure from a farm you need to make sure that the farmer didnt feed the livestock hay that has been treated with herbicides!

Some of them can persist through the digestive system of the animals. My dad made that mistake and wound up with a lot of dead tomatoes.

A work around for the herbicide issue is to get the manure and let it sit and compost for a year or two before using it. Microbial activity will help to break the poisons down to a benign state.

Another precaution to take would be to do a "Grow Test". Take some of the manure and apply it to "Broad Leaf Plants" and see if they wither or thrive.


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## ContinualHarvest (Feb 19, 2012)

If you're anxious to get started you should buy some well composted manure, and top soil. Mix it up real good and then put it into the garden bed. If you want to cut down on weeds, you can mulch the beds and or use a plant based landscaping cloth. I use a product made from corn husks and just cut little Xs into it when I add new plants. Water and nutrients pass through fine. Mulching keeps you from having to water as often and prevents erosion.
As you progress through the year, compost veggie scraps and plant matter. Best plant food in the world is compost. MAke sure it's well rotted though.


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## Immolatus (Feb 20, 2011)

Friday a mix of leaf compost (3/4) and composted manure is being delivered to fill up the new area. My hands are sore from diggin/tilling and just generally playing in the dirt, which I always loved to do.
I stopped at HD to get a wheelbarrow, and got a few beefsteak heirloom tomatoes just cause they had them. Its not time to put them in yet, but Ill keep em inside til it is.
The strawberry plants had gone absolutely nuts, so I moved em to a mulch bed. If they live and produce, great, if they dont, well, meh.
I like that mesh idea, the weeds got a little out of control over the winter. An older gentleman I bought some plants from off Craigslist last year had stacks of newspapers between his rows, so I planted some papers myself. He had a garden taking up most of his suburban backyard and said it used to feed their whole family, so I assume he knows what hes doin.


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## AlabamaGal (Dec 27, 2011)

Sounds good. I've spent all day outside on chores and feel so tired/relaxed now you'd think mindaltering chemicals were involved. Anything to get the heavy chores done before the mercury starts climbing.


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

I was outside all day too. 

I'm working on a new wood shed. 12'x16' and 9' tall.
Some general spring clean-up.
Helped DW with some new flower beds. 
Cleaned out the chicken coop and threw it on the garden. 

Then...

Fired up the tiller and dug the first section of the garden. The ground was nearly perfect for tilling. :2thumb: Cool weather stuff will be going in the ground in a week or so. I'm soooo ready to get started.


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## sailaway (Mar 12, 2009)

Last night I planted my tomato & Pepper seeds in little containers w/ potting soil, about a 100 of them. I will transplant out side when they begin growing, not sure where yet.

Hey Uncle Joe!:wave: Mind if I use your new shed for my BOL? That will save me building one.:2thumb:


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## kappydell (Nov 27, 2011)

My prep partner & I made our raised bed gardens today - not really huge, just 5 x 30 feet and 10 inches raised. We have a separate 'pyramid bed' set up for the strawberries. Now we are planning out where to plant our fruit trees and bushes. We have the veggie starts going already, and are planning a fish pond, too. (No, I havent told her the koi are edible....)


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

sailaway said:


> Hey Uncle Joe!:wave: Mind if I use your new shed for my BOL? That will save me building one.:2thumb:


Well, I have 8" gaps in the wall planking to let air flow through so you'll have to do a bit of insulation work. The chicken coop is sealed better and has nice soft straw on the floor. You could move right in. 

Back on topic... The handlebar assembly on my tiller broke tonight.   That's going to set me back a few days.


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## Immolatus (Feb 20, 2011)

If I only had a (brain) tiller. Tilling by hand with a shovel, even in my small area...sux.
I could swear the broccoli still has some green on it. From some quick reading, it seems it will only survive three years at most, assuming it survives the winter. Odd.


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## AlabamaGal (Dec 27, 2011)

Consider going no-till, Immolatus. It takes time to build soil, but then again it takes time to build soil anyway. Just don't expect good root veggies until you develop a nice tilth. On the other hand, you'd be astonished how far a thick layer of fall leaves and your earthworms will get you just over the winter.

It won't work for every garden or every gardener, but where it does it's a huge time and effort saver.


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## Immolatus (Feb 20, 2011)

What do you mean 'no till'? Maybe I should explain that to me, tilling means me turning over the dirt, adding dead plants/leaves/etc if I have them.


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## AlabamaGal (Dec 27, 2011)

Tilling or plowing is not a requirement in almost any kind of agriculture. Increasingly, large farms are going no-till or what they call conservation tillage, which basically means they use machinery for the seed furrow.

One, it saves energy which means it saves money. Two, it's better for the soil not to be disturbed -- less erosion and also less loss of CO2 to the atmosphere that you have to replace with fertilizer. The soil also retains moisture much better if left unturned. Three, it's better for the plants because tilling destroys natural tilth -- ironically tilling causes soil compaction. Four, it's better for maintaining populations of beneficial soil organisms. Five, you get less weeds sprouted from seed when you don't till and if you have running weeds like bermuda grass tilling pretty much ensures a massive infestation.

Of all of these, soil erosion is really the biggest issue. Loss of topsoil destroys farms, large swaths of cropland and even destroys entire civilizations. No joke.

There are downsides. In some places, there are pests that are very problematic, but can be knocked back by exposing their larvae to freezing temperatures by tilling. Another potential downside is that if your soil is wet, the extra moisture retained can cause them to rot. You can't control weeds by tilling between the rows; you have to use some other method. You still need to avoid walking on your garden beds -- I suggest basically permanent rows -- which isn't an issue on a large farm where people rarely walk through the fields. And if you are a home gardener just getting started, turning the soil the first year can be what makes planting possible at all, especially if your soil is compacted quite badly.

In the long run, however, by mulching and top dressing, you WILL be adding organic matter to the soil thanks to the efforts of bacteria, fungi and small inserts and worms, and the soil tilth and fertility will get better each year. Not a bad outcome for being lazy. Raised bed gardening, lasagne gardening and various other methods that have become trendy lately are variations on no-till, but you can do it straight in the dirt.

Personally, I think no-till makes a LOT of sense if one is thinking of survival gardening in a low energy world. But like everything else in gardening, it's just one of many methods that can be successful.


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## Immolatus (Feb 20, 2011)

Hmm. Thanks for making me lazier than I already am!
The new portion had been covred by rocks for the last ? years, and its getting buried under at least 4" of new compost anyway, and the older portion did well enough last year I was just gonna put an inch or so on top of the old stuff. So dont till it in? Say no more!


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## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

I hate, hate, hate to garden. Weeds take over around July and I give up. Can't grow an onion bigger than a golf ball, tomatoes get black spots no matter how many egg shells I put around the base, and cucumbers grow to about 3 inches and then die, Broccoli and cauliflower go to seed on me, zucchini is either too small, too large or completely takes over the entire garden, nobody eats the lettuce or squash, carrots taste like dirt and so do beets, blah, blah. I keep doing it every year cause I think "THIS year it's gonna be better". It's usually not.

I do have VERY good bug control from my ducks. They leave the plants alone and eat all the bugs. It's great. 

So "this year" (lol) I threw in a bunch of composted horse poop and lightly tilled it in. Then I covered the whole dang thing with a woven plastic my husband gets free from his work. It's actually giant bags that we've cut open and laid out. When it comes time to plant I will cut an 'x' and put the plants in. I'm getting all heirloom seeds this year, hope that helps in some way, but I'm skeptical. I think some people are made to garden and others just aren't. My neighbors across the road have a garden that people come to take pictures of, which makes me want to sit down and bawl. 

I generally have good luck with giant ragweed, cockle burrs, stinging nettle and an occasional potato


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## Immolatus (Feb 20, 2011)

Come up with a recipe for ragweed and cockleburr sandwiches!

I wish you the best of luck! I like to garden. Sure weeds suck, but for me its like playing in the dirt as a kid.
Do those woven mats actually work the way Im imagining? No weeds? Sounds too good to be true!


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## AlabamaGal (Dec 27, 2011)

Immolatus said:


> The new portion had been covred by rocks for the last ? years, and its getting buried under at least 4" of new compost anyway, and the older portion did well enough last year I was just gonna put an inch or so on top of the old stuff. So dont till it in? Say no more!


I would till that new section your first year if it's hard and compacted... and I'm guessing if it's been under rocks is sure is, and much of the soil life has been baked out of it. If you just through 4" of compost on the top this year you'll probably have plants with roots exactly 4" deep and no drought tolerance.

If your old section is in better shape, it's probably fine to skip the tilling. Ideally, though, you'll keep mulching it through the growing season (keeping it away from the very base of the plants) and let it rot in. Then at the end of your season throw your mulch and compost on and let the worms do their thing all winter. I don't really have a season when I have nothing growing, so I just mulch empty spots when I have them.

Forewarning: watch for snails and slugs. They love mulch. As do some nasties like squash bugs. Snails aren't too hard to control but if the mulch gives you a huge squash bug infestation, rake it out and don't do it next year.



> Do those woven mats actually work the way Im imagining? No weeds? Sounds too good to be true!


Not in the south, it doesn't. It either bakes the plant roots into oblivion or becomes the absolute perfect substrate for bermuda grass rootlets that can then never, ever be eliminated. YMMV.


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## ContinualHarvest (Feb 19, 2012)

lazydaisy67 said:


> I hate, hate, hate to garden. Weeds take over around July and I give up. Can't grow an onion bigger than a golf ball, tomatoes get black spots no matter how many egg shells I put around the base, and cucumbers grow to about 3 inches and then die, Broccoli and cauliflower go to seed on me, zucchini is either too small, too large or completely takes over the entire garden, nobody eats the lettuce or squash, carrots taste like dirt and so do beets, blah, blah. I keep doing it every year cause I think "THIS year it's gonna be better". It's usually not.
> 
> I do have VERY good bug control from my ducks. They leave the plants alone and eat all the bugs. It's great.
> 
> ...


Plant grapes and wake wine.  Wine always tastes good after a couple of glasses.


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## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

Have no idea if it will work or not. Spraying 24D doesn't keep them under control and if I spray Rounup nothing will grow. So its my last option for getting plants I WANT to grow and if it's a big fat flub, then I quit. 
This plastic is thicker than landscape fabric, which I've tried also. One year I tried putting newspaper in between the rows and plants....the weeds just pushed through that and went along their merry way. One year I spread wood mulch between every single plant and the rows, spent a bunch of coin for all those bags, too!! It seemed to help a little but eventually the weeds took over that too. It's not that I plant and then walk away and never go out there again...I AM out there pulling weeds, trust me. 
I swear if I could grow an onion, just ONE that was the size of a baseball I'd be thrilled to pieces!!


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## AlabamaGal (Dec 27, 2011)

lazydaisy67 said:


> Weeds take over around July and I give up.


I think gardeners get way too uptight about weeds. A few weeds don't hurt. If you can't see the plants for the weeds you might have a problem. Then again my Mom's garden always looks like that and she gets lots of food out of it. So, she doesn't weed.

If you have stuff with tubers or running roots, the only solution is to sit down in the dirt and sift through everything digging them out and putting them in buckets to be either burned or relocated to an enemy's garden. After you do this 4 or 5 times over the course of a couple of years, it gets better.

If you don't have that kind of stuff, 5 minutes a day pulling weeds will keep you in pretty good shape. 35 minutes on Saturday is not as good. Forget the hoe, it just annoys them.



> Can't grow an onion bigger than a golf ball,


Might be a soil tilth issue. Have you tried walking onions? They grow above ground.



> tomatoes get black spots no matter how many egg shells I put around the base,


Are the spots specifically at the base (where the blossom is) or somewhere else? Several things can cause tomatoes to get black spots.



> and cucumbers grow to about 3 inches and then die,


Most likely a pollination problem. Do you have healthy populations of native bees (especially bumble bees)?



> Broccoli and cauliflower go to seed on me,


Both are biennial plants. They only go to seed if they think more seasons have passed than actually have. Weather fluctuations can do it, as can seedlings being grown in a greenhouse, placed outside in the cold, and then you get a warm spell.

I've given up on spring planting of them here because our weather yo-yos so much I always lose the broccoli. Instead, I plant in the early fall and let them overwinter in the garden. Cabbages, collards and kale, too.



> zucchini is either too small, too large or completely takes over the entire garden,


Zucchini plants come in "too small"?!  Dang, I need some of those.



> nobody eats the lettuce or squash,


Then don't plant them. Save your effort for something else. Plant more of what you grow well.



> carrots taste like dirt and so do beets, blah, blah.


Do they actually taste like dirt, or these are just people complaining about them? Because if they are actually tasting bad, it could be either the choice of varieties, the soil or, less often, the climate.



> I'm getting all heirloom seeds this year, hope that helps in some way, but I'm skeptical.


Maybe, maybe not. If the heirlooms are regional and adapted to your climate, they probably will do better, but "heirloom" can also mean a plant adapted to radically different conditions, in which case they'll probably not do well at all.



> I think some people are made to garden and others just aren't.


My Dad was the one who originally taught me how to grow food and I learned what to actually pay attention to from him, instead of sweating the small stuff. Here learned it from his parents, and so forth. Growing food is not encoded in your genes. Your choices are to either learn from people or to learn the hard way by trial and error -- most of us do some of both. I will never forget the look on my Dad's face when late one fall he was angrily muttered, "well these peanuts did nothing!" right before he pulled them up. :lolsmash:



> My neighbors across the road have a garden that people come to take pictures of, which makes me want to sit down and bawl.


So... have you asked your neighbors which varieties do well for them and what their routine is? You'll rarely meet a gardener who isn't willing to talk your leg off about it, but if they turn out to be mean, then you know what to do with all the nutsedge roots you pull out of your garden.


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## ContinualHarvest (Feb 19, 2012)

I used landscape fabric and tons of mulch in a mound. Nothing else grows but what I want and intentionally plant in the area now. Used to battle a lilac bush every year until I used a kill mulch method.
I've got my beery brambles there now. Even a few grape vines on one side of that area. No more lilac intrusion from the neighbors yard.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

lazydaisy67 said:


> Spraying 24D doesn't keep them under control and if I spray Rounup nothing will grow.
> (


When was the last time you used the 24D on your garden plot?


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## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

The 24D and Roundup was several years back and only around the edges of the actual "garden" part. I've never used any type of chemical for weed control on the actual garden itself. I never spray for weeds on windy days, you know, all the usual rules. I usually have giant rag weed in the pasture behind my house that grows taller than my horses. Then last year for some reason it was all cocklebur weeds. The poor horses had to spend hours all summer long with me tugging on their manes and tails to get them out. Stinging nettle is RAMPANT on my entire farm as well. The kids call it Fire Bush and it's absolutely horrible.
I'm pretty sure my neighbors just pick up seeds from the local nursery. They don't know how to use a computer, so I don't think they order anything on-line. They are out there every, single, solitary day for hours on end. I have SOME time, but sheesh, I gotta feed my kids and do some laundry once in a while too. Along with the 100 other projects going on around my place. Like I said, if this plastic landscape fabric thing doesn't pan out, I'm gonna quit trying cause I have tons of other stuff in my life that kills my self esteem, I don't need my garden to do it to me too.


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## worldengineer (Sep 20, 2010)

I'm not sure how you garden. Is it by rows or bed type structures? I tend to use both as I have a tractor and my dad does also. In my plant beds I use good old digging and pulling to get rid of the weeds. No roundup or any chemicals because it will kill what you want to eat. When it comes to rows try to use a little bit more space between the plants as this will aid in the weeding with a hoe. Use a tiller too as it will help, just make sure to keep it around 2 inches deep to mainly kill off the roots of the grass. Around the end of July our garden also gets weedy quick, because of other obligations. But a nice day with an hour or two free and its back to being weed free. Gardening is something you have to devote some time too. 30 minutes a day to prevent lots of work down the road.

I'm young, but because of my grandfather and my dad quickly learned how to grow a garden. Sadly we don't have good land and can't expand out. But we do get enough out to have three healthy meals a day.


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## sailaway (Mar 12, 2009)

I was looking at seeds today at TSC, on the backs of the packets they said origin CHINA.  These were Burpee Brand!


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## derek78 (Feb 25, 2012)

I buy american every time i can. Sometimes i wont buy if not. Of course some of our seeds, especially hierlooms, come from overseas. Just like tv's or lumber. Exchangable goods. But i always try


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## Possumfam (Apr 19, 2011)

lazydaisy67 said:


> I hate, hate, hate to garden. Weeds take over around July and I give up. Can't grow an onion bigger than a golf ball,


I got into this thread a little late 

Hey, Daisy - maybe try a smaller garden, maybe just a few of your favorite plants. From my childhood, I hated gardening, too! It was too hot, too many weeds, horrible allergies, etc...etc...etc... But DH has taught me a few things. Every year, he'll gather bags and bags - loads and loads - of leaves that others are disposing of. He'll pour them 6 - 8 inches deep between the rows and around the plants. We hardly ever have to weed, keeps the moisture in, and he tills it back in at the end of the season (organic fertilizer.) I guess you could get some bad stuff in those bags, but so far we've been lucky. We started 20 years ago w/ mostly tomatoes, a few cukes, and black-eyed peas....over the years, we've learned more and added more veggies. This year, we became the proud owners of our very first harvest of home grown carrots! Finally!!!!! We can't get an onion bigger than a golf ball either, so I just use more onions. :dunno: This year, we're really gonna try to go organic. I saw the ugliest worm thing and squished it, only to find out it was gonna be a lady bug when it grew up. I quit squishing all the bugs - alot of them are good guys and they'll eat the bad guys if we don't sevin dust everything (which will also keep the pollinators away.) I know it can be frustrating, but maybe back up and start small. And use those neighbors to your advantage - maybe they'll help you figure it out. You don't have to re-invent the wheel.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

lazydaisy67 said:


> I hate, hate, hate to garden. Weeds take over around July and I give up. Can't grow an onion bigger than a golf ball, tomatoes get black spots no matter how many egg shells I put around the base, and cucumbers grow to about 3 inches and then die, Broccoli and cauliflower go to seed on me, zucchini is either too small, too large or completely takes over the entire garden, nobody eats the lettuce or squash, carrots taste like dirt and so do beets, blah, blah. I keep doing it every year cause I think "THIS year it's gonna be better". It's usually not.


If you are game for another try at the garden, I have a suggestion, kinda in line with what Possumfam said. Cut down your garden to just what you feel is the best part and plant some of the most prolific and least demanding plants such as green beans, squash, radishes and toss a few kernels of field or "Dent" corn, you probably will not get anything from the corn but it will be a kind of diagnostic tool.

The things like broccoli and cauliflower take a long time to produce and can be prone to alot of pests so temporarily forgo those. Keep the size down to what can be easily managed, keep it watered well and if the plants seem kinda "poor" add fertilizer. The fertilizer can be your choice but I would recommend liquid fish and liquid seaweed. Reason - its hard to over feed with them and they will not usually "burn" the plants if over used(unless you really OVER DO it).

You said that the ducks keep the bugs down so no spraying should be necesary, you dont want to get to many variables in the experiment.

If you are willing I think we can find what the problem is with a little work, you game?

Note: I cant grow onions bigger than a golf ball either, thats why I just pull them young and dehydrate the bulb and greens all together.


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## Possumfam (Apr 19, 2011)

lazydaisy67 said:


> I usually have giant rag weed in the pasture behind my house that grows taller than my horses. Then last year for some reason it was all cocklebur weeds. The poor horses had to spend hours all summer long with me tugging on their manes and tails to get them out. Stinging nettle is RAMPANT on my entire farm as well. The kids call it Fire Bush and it's absolutely horrible.


Just a thought, we have a few goats and they seem to like some of the brush/brambly kinda stuff. Maybe you could invest in a couple of goats???


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