# Icynene Foam Insulation = Big Savings



## RodUSMC (May 25, 2012)

Gents, wanted to share my experience with my Icynene foam insulation recently installed in my house. This was a retrofit on my home which was built 3 years ago. House was built to Energy Star standards, and is also a Touchtone energy home, which means it was built to very high energy efficiency standards (R-36 on attic floor, R-15 in walls, etc.). Despite this, our power bills were still higher than I liked. Attic is walk in, and was about 110 degree in the summer. After some research, decided on spraying the underside of the roof with Icynene. Estimate to install was $6000, which was negotiated down to $5000 (house has about a 3800 sq.ft. footprint, with a steep 12-12 pitch). We used low density foam because we plan on moving in 5-10 years, and we thought high density foam might take too long to recover the cost (high density is about double the cost, but I think it is superior as it adds better structural strength to the roof). Anyhow, we saved over $1000 in the first 6 months of use, as compared to last year's power bill. Of course, winter was mild, but our utility rates were higher than last year as well. Other benefits of both low and high density foam are: both help hold the roof sheathing to the roof trusses from the "glue" effect; they help prevent soffit failure in high winds because the soffits are sealed; there is a very high amount of noise reduction now that the soffits and ridge vents are sealed...it's almost impossible to hear the rain unless the rain blows against the windows; the attic is cooler in the summer, and warm in the winter; and finally it reduces fire risk, as the house is tighter and there's less oxygen available from open soffits and ridge vents should a fire start. Icynene is also less flamable than wood. Anyhow, I am VERY pleased with the decision, since it was not fun risking $5000 for an unknown return. I am not a builder or icynene dealer either...just a retired Marine, and current airline pilot. Hope this helps someone with their decision.


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## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

Interesting. Will have to look at it closer.

Conventional wisdom says DON'T DO IT, especially as it relates to closing the soffits and ridge vent.


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## GaryS (Nov 15, 2011)

The plans for my new house include a non-vented attic with low density foam in the 2X6 walls and in the rafters, as well as premium low-e doors and windows. It will also have vertical, closed loop, geothermal heating and cooling , plus it will be wired to install solar power at a later date. Our current house has geothermal and good insulation, and it's wonderful, but we want to downsize and get as close to being energy independent as we can get. 

The problem we have run into is getting an appraisal that takes into consideration the energy efficiency. In today's economic situation, we will have to come up with nearly half the real value in cash before we can get a construction loan. They base their appraisal on 15-year-old pre-Energy Star guidelines, and comps from recent distressed sales of spec homes with similar square footage.


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## RodUSMC (May 25, 2012)

ZoomZoom said:


> Interesting. Will have to look at it closer.
> 
> Conventional wisdom says DON'T DO IT, especially as it relates to closing the soffits and ridge vent.


Yeah, heard that too, but conventional wisdom is dead wrong. Believe me, I was very concerned about that as well, but after digging further discovered its really inaccurate. This myth is similar to the other one that said foam under the roof voids shingle warranties, which is also not true. Even then I wasn't convinced, so I waited until unvented roofs were building code approved here in Coweta County, GA. We have very strict building codes, and every new house in our neighborhood, Lake Redwine Plantation, is being built this way. Houses here are typically fairly high end, and usually custom, so we are not talking about cheap spec houses either. Unless you build a house out of ICF, 99% of new homes, even very tight ones, have plenty of ventilation even with the vents sealed. If your house is too tight, which can be the case with a home built with foam from the start (walls, attic, everything), you can add mechanical ventilation later at very little cost. Another benefit is it does help keep humidity at the appropriate level in homes with heat pumps. Heat pumps pull too much of the little water vapor out of the house in winter when humidity is so low. If you use a humidifier to improve this problem, a sealed house will help retain the desired level of humidity. Our home is still bone dry, even during very high humidity periods...but again, we have heat pumps. Oh, I should add that our two air handlers are in the attic, so we are seeing larger savings than would be the case if your heat pump is in the basement.


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## RodUSMC (May 25, 2012)

GaryS said:


> The plans for my new house include a non-vented attic with low density foam in the 2X6 walls and in the rafters, as well as premium low-e doors and windows. It will also have vertical, closed loop, geothermal heating and cooling , plus it will be wired to install solar power at a later date. Our current house has geothermal and good insulation, and it's wonderful, but we want to downsize and get as close to being energy independent as we can get.
> 
> The problem we have run into is getting an appraisal that takes into consideration the energy efficiency. In today's economic situation, we will have to come up with nearly half the real value in cash before we can get a construction loan. They base their appraisal on 15-year-old pre-Energy Star guidelines, and comps from recent distressed sales of spec homes with similar square footage.


Smart Gary...our retirement home will be similar to yours, except probably ICF walls vice foam, and perhaps even a concrete roof using ICF too.


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## Domeguy (Sep 9, 2011)

Icynene foam is open-cell foam, and lacks several advantages of higher density, closed cell foam. Open cell foam is not vapor or air tight, is not structural, and has half the r-value of closed cell foam. r-3 compared to r-6+ per inch Always try to stick with closed cell if you can afford it. Having said that, any foam is better then no foam at all.


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

It will deteriorat over time an loose R-value. We've seen allota homes with foam inuslation an the stuff be turnin ta dust.

Much less expensive an more efficient ways a insulatin a house. Done right with less costly materials ya can seal a house upta the point it has air quality issues an stuff won't deteriorate like foam will. 

We weatherize homes an foam is the least efficient of all the products available. Cellulose insulation an proper sealin a the by-passes will get ya better results without all the draw backs. 

Just my coppers worth.


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## Domeguy (Sep 9, 2011)

Really??! The least efficient!? Cellulose (fluffed paper)!? Riiight.



OldCootHillbilly said:


> It will deteriorat over time an loose R-value. We've seen allota homes with foam inuslation an the stuff be turnin ta dust.
> 
> Much less expensive an more efficient ways a insulatin a house. Done right with less costly materials ya can seal a house upta the point it has air quality issues an stuff won't deteriorate like foam will.
> 
> ...


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## GaryS (Nov 15, 2011)

It is indeed a tradeoff when comparing closed cell to open cell foam. However, at nearly twice the cost for closed cell, there really isn't an option for me. My insulation installer does them all, and says that in this climate, open cell is the better (most cost effective) choice. If I still lived in snow country, I'd opt for closed cell.

My first custom home had fiberglass batts and my current home has cellulose...6" in the walls and 18"-24" in the attic. I can't notice a difference in the comfort level or cooling cost between those two.

The ventilation issue is handled by a energy recovery ventilator on the HVAC system.

Rod, we considered concrete also, but it's too expensive in this area and there are only a couple of companies building that type of home. Our concrete is limited to a safe room/pantry in the center of the house.


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

Domeguy said:


> Really??! The least efficient!? Cellulose (fluffed paper)!? Riiight.


Yup, right. When proper installed it be very effecient. Stops air flow (main point a weatherization) an good R value. Be why the state an federal goobernut says it be what we'll use. An it works.

Dense pack a slope in it virtually stops air flow, installed properly an in correct amounts does a excellent job in the attic. Dense pack a wall with it an it again nearly stops air flow.

We do hundred a homes a year, so feel perty certain it works an our testin says so to.

Dollar fer dollar it'll out perform that foam over the life of a home.


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## Domeguy (Sep 9, 2011)

Okay . . . . I'll keep building energy efficient, tornado proof, fireproof, termite proof, earthquake proof, concrete homes and let ya,ll handle the rest.


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## Dixie (Sep 20, 2010)

RodUSMC said:


> Lake Redwine Plantation,
> 
> *Will you adopt me?*


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

Domeguy said:


> Okay . . . . I'll keep building energy efficient, tornado proof, fireproof, termite proof, earthquake proof, concrete homes and let ya,ll handle the rest.
> View attachment 2321


You do that, an I'll keep retro fittin homes an make them more energy efficient, fire resistant an bug resistant.  We deal with temps from -10° ta +100°. Like I said, we insulate an weatherize hundreds a homes a year. We don't build just a select few. If this didn't work, it wouldn't still be done nearl 40 years later.

Plus, we are recyclin products, we ain't usin a man made product what will continue ta gas off an deterorate over time. You use what ya wanna, but I'll still tell folks there be cheaper more effecient ways a doin the job.


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## Domeguy (Sep 9, 2011)

Cellulose insulation has to be treated with chemicals to make it fire retardent and bug/mold proof. Unless packed extremely dense it will settle up to 20% in just a few years. THe house wrap/vapor barrier has to be almost 100% to keep moisture from infiltrating and deteriorating the r-value.

Properly engineered and applied cellulose is a cost effective means of insulating an existing home. Far better then doing nothing. To represent that it's a better insulation material then polyurethane foam is not true. Maybe more cost effective or affordable in a particular application (especially retro-fitting older home)

Foam used to be made with formaldhyde that will off-gas over time. It's still used in autos (part of the 'new car' smell) Building foam has not been made like that for decades. Like you, i have installed alot of all kinds of insulation over the last 35 years, if you can use it and afford the extra up front cost, foam is better.


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