# copper bars for investment purposes?



## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

Has anyone done any dabbling in buying copper bars as an investment? Curious to see what the the thoughts out there are... I have "some" silver, but I always want to get more, I keep stacking! Gold is out of my reach, and so is palladium. I was thinking about going with some copper as a little diversity to my PM's.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

I'd say copper is too bulky to use as an investment. You'd be better off either with an investment in the metal through a mining company or a commodities contract. If you want it as a prep item, you'd be better off with a bunch of pipe from Home Depot.

Shares of SCCO, a Chilean mining company, are at the low end of their 52 week range right now if you are serious.


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

Thank you! that's definitely an interesting thing to think about.

I have hesitations though because I personally don't know the first thing about evaluating the worth or investment risks into a mining company, also, while they may set the world on fire with profits, if there's any kind of financial chaos, I don't want to be left holding only a piece of paper which I'd have to walk 3000 miles to show someone just to be told "well that company folded up shop (or was nationalized) years ago, go away"

I also agree with the comments about pipes, it's a tangible and USEFUL asset that makes it worth holding.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

If you want to invest you need to follow business news generally and then study the specific investment in some detail. Any financial asset is going to be worthless if we get TEOTWAWKI, but will not be significantly driven by the normal hurricanes, freezing temps, or other short term headaches we prepare for unless you have the bad luck to invest in a stock right before their main factory gets hammered or some similar form of bad luck. When you invest in financial assets, it is for normal times. I'm sure most of us have retirement accounts. The whole idea of retirement assumes things are okay.

When you prep, you want physical, not financial assets, because you will probably not be able to access your financial assets until (and unless) the crisis passes. So the first question is whether you're thinking of this as a true investment or a prep item. Your original question seemed vague on that point. My answer was primarily a financial asset, normal times, response. Allow me to go a bit further to give you some further idea of what you need to study if you are thinking of normal times, financial asset, then shift to prep item.

Copper is used heavily in construction. Construction tends to be strong when the overall economy is strong, so copper usage will go up along with a rise in the world economy. Construction in China is considered to be the biggest driver of copper prices, so you would generally expect it to go up with the Chinese economy in particular doing well.

The largest company in the copper business in the US is Freeport McMoRan, but they are into other businesses, so if you are looking for something that will move with copper prices, it is a consideration, but might not be as directly connected to copper as you would like. Chile is one of the largest copper producers in the world and SCCO is the largest Chilean miner. Their price will move more directly with copper prices.

I'd say this whole idea is a good one if you are thinking we're about to come out of the economic slump and launch some new construction, or the Chinese are about to pick up their pace. That's hardly a prep scenario.

If you're thinking of a disaster scenario, then all financial assets are moot and you want physical assets. I do think tools and materials, basically anything at Home Depot, would be extremely valuable in a wide range of scenarios, (anything that causes a lot of physical damage) so the idea of some copper pipe or wiring, particularly if you know how to work with it (plumbing or electrical skills) might be useful. However, my first choice of a material would be plywood for boarding up windows. Others might choose something else, but a mix of materials is something to consider.

Since this is a prepper forum, I think I should probably drop the investment angle and we should stick to the prepper angle.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

Stay away from mining stocks. Hyperinflation would destroy their business by making it impossible for them to continue to mine.

Copper is $3.37 a pound. I don't think it makes any sense to buy copper as an investment. Not when you can buy junk silver dimes.

You can buy 1/10 oz gold Maple Leaps at Providentmetals.com for $138.07 each.


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## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

I have not invested in copper bars, copper sheet though. 16 or 18 gauge sheets are, to me anyway, a valuable thing to own. My own stocks of them have dramatically increased in value. My investments in 12/2 and 12/3 rolls of copper wire have also shown a dramatic increase in 'value'. I have several 1,000' rolls of 12 gauge and 14 gauge wire that I am sure are more costly to replace than what I paid for them. No, I have no immediate use for them, other than what I have built from some. No, I do not plan on selling them at this point. Yes, I do plan on holding on to them and if the need or opportunity arises to buy more.

But, you might invest in some Tin bars if you are going the invest in copper route. Last I bought was $10/pound... Just checked and the latest is $9.79 USD/pound. Did I 'lose money' on it so far? Nope. I hold it so I own it! I can take some tin snips, a sheet of copper, tin and a torch and produce something of value with them. The 1# rolls of 95/5 silver solder I bought for $35 each are worth much more than that for the silver alone. To me, an investment in any usable, HOLDABLE commodity is a worthwhile investment. Sure you can go the paper route but like many of us found out in 2008/9, POOF! You 'own' nothing. Yes, folks stayed with it playing the odds but some of us got out. Have I done as well as someone like Geek who plays the markets? Nope, not at all! I am SURE he has made more 'money' on his investments than I have. But, it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy when I can fondle a cold sheet of copper, a few cold rounds of silver, a few cold rounds of brass with lead on the top, a few cold cans of supplies, some charcoal filters, firewood..... I'm a much happier guy than I was in 2008. Poorer than others who stuck with it, yes, but happier.

EDIT: I just did a quick check on copper sheet. I have several 4' x 8' rolls of 16 and 18 gauge copper. Even at the lowest grade - roofing- (don't remember what mine are) they are $282 for a 3' x 4' roll of 19 gauge. C110 is $314 for a 3' x 4' piece, MINUS shipping. Highest I remember paying for one was $99. I also looked up (had to this was intriguing me) a 24" x 24" piece of .125", H110 copper I bought to cut a bottom for a lobster boiling pot I was thinking of making. I paid $72 delivered in November of 2005 (just REALLY lucky finding that manifest!!!), todays price $323. Could I go out tomorrow morning and trade any of this for something to eat? Nope. But no need to. Could I take a piece of paper saying I owned 100 shares of a gold mine in South America and trade it for food if the need arose?


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Actually, if I buy SCCO and you buy a bunch of copper sheets, our results should be quite similar. In both cases we are making money in Chile, which is the largest source of copper. When you buy copper the funds go to the seller, probably Chile. When I buy the stock, same result. (Sorry I couldn't resist throwing that in. It is really more relevant to the other thread.)

In both cases, if the price of copper goes up, we benefit and if the price of copper goes down we suffer. The difference is in normal times I can get in and out within minutes with low transaction cost, while you can't, but you still have your copper in a SHTF world while I won't be able to access a financial asset like a Chilean stock. I don't have to worry about storing the stuff, where you take comfort from being able to touch it.

From a prepper sense you are doing the better job. From an investment for normal times perspective, I am doing a better job.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

Go out and collect 1982 and older pennies. Today their melt value is $0.02 each and their cost is $0.01. The problem is that you have to buy what I expect to be an an expensive sorting machine or you have to sort by hand.

Today you can buy a roll of nickels for $2, it will never drop in price and there is no sorting. Current melt value is $0.044 each. Melt value has been above a nickel and with inflation I expect it to be again.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

I also have tons of copper wire (both usable and "scrap") and pipe... many of these items were bought as new surplus at a deep discount for immediate savings. It seems they only go up in value.

I have about 100 lbs of pre-82 pennies... If a person is sharp with the understandings of physics, you can make a sorter based on density and gravity to let the heavy ones fall in one pile and the light ones fall in another pile.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

Caribou said:


> Go out and collect 1982 and older pennies. Today their melt value is $0.02 each and their cost is $0.01. The problem is that you have to buy what I expect to be an an expensive sorting machine or you have to sort by hand.
> 
> Today you can buy a roll of nickels for $2, it will never drop in price and there is no sorting. Current melt value is $0.044 each. Melt value has been above a nickel and with inflation I expect it to be again.


I just don't see either one as practical. Would anybody want to sort through them for barter purposes? It would legal to melt them someday after the dollar is dead but who would want to?

A nickel right now is worth 4.4 cents in melt value. A nickel weighs 5 grams. There's about 91 per pound or about $4 per pound based on current melt value. So $1,000 in nickels would weigh about 250 lbs. Not exactly portable. And would someone accept 5 lbs worth of nickels for $20 in food?

A 1964 or earlier dime weighs 2.5 grams and is worth about $1.43 right now. That's 182 dimes or $260 a pound. So to keep it simple, $1000 in old dimes weighs about 4 lbs. It's a lot more practical for barter and a lot more portable.

Right now gold is at $1230 at ounce. At providentmetals.com you can buy 1/10 of an ounce gold Canadian coins for $137.61 each or 1 ounce gold Canadian coins for $1274.36 each. If you have a lot of money in physical metal it makes sense to own gold. With a melt value of about $20,000 a pound it's great for maximum value at the smallest size. It would be the easiest way to smuggle real wealth across the border somewhere.

Some people obviously like nickels and old pennies but I'm just not one of them.


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## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

I can't afford gold, I have bought silver in the past and plan to again. Pennies cost me $0.01 each at this time. I have always saved my change to go through, looking for numismatic value ones. I roll it up and cash the rest in once a year, to help pay for a vacation. 

On cold nights (and days!) like we are having, I have lots of time where I just want to be inside and keep warm. I get out the free-standing magnifying glass, break out the change jars and spend time with some tunes playing checking each one. Yeah, I'm not making $100 and hour (UNLESS I find a good one!) but at least I am doing something besides watching TV.

I hypermile with my gas vehicle. Folks used to chuckle when I had to park in a certain spot so I could put it in neutral to coast back out of it before starting it and driving off. I had all the lights timed on my commute, still do on my PLANNED trips to the store. My saying to them is 'ten pennies make a dime, ten dimes make a dollar'. True, I might only save a penny or two worth of gas with each technique I use but they add up! I can turn a vehicle which gets 32.5 combined MPG into one that gets me 45MPG in the winter, and 50+MPG in the summer. I have nothing against folks who can afford an expensive vehicle that gets horrible mileage, more power to them if they spend their money that way! Me? Not so much.


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