# Gun safes are not magic boxes



## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Just a reminder that gun safes, even good ones, are not impenetrable boxes that guarantee the security of your valuables. They only keep honest people out and delay the time it takes for dishonest people to gain access to them. This is why a safe is merely one part of an overall home security plan. I have only seen one instance of a safe being breached where multiple other security measures were taken. I have seen numerous instances of safe's being breached or stolen completely where the safe itself was considered the primary measure of protection.

This is a photo from an actual theft. This safe is not low end nor is it a cheap security "cabinet". It's an actual safe. Estimated time from entry to exit was less than 20 minutes. They got several handguns, cash, jewelry, etc. and even left items (including long guns) that they did not consider to be valuable or portable. The safe is sitting in a room being remodeled and could have been easily seen by anyone allowed access to the home (plumber, carpenter, meter reader, etc.) and no other security protocols or measures were in place sans locking the door to the residence.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

Bummer.

A contact switch between the safe and back wall connected to a loud siren and dialer #1.

Motion detector in the same room as the safe connected to dialer #2.

Whole house alarm system for ALL floors.

Steel entry doors with dead bolts and window glass protection film.

Steel water pipe covering your outside telephone drop, and a steel box fasten securely to the house protecting the Telephone Network interface device (NID). Plant a bush with thorns in front of it all. Install a dummy NID on the side of the house in plain view.

Land mines between the house and the perimeter razor wire topped fence.

Elevated guard towers....


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## backlash (Nov 11, 2008)

Where is the Photo?


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## Balls004 (Feb 28, 2015)

It's amazing how much time and effort people put into dishonest and criminal enterprise, but won't put that into a real job. 

With the average response time by our Sheriff's department, unless I can slow them down by an hour or so, they'll be long gone by the time the SO gets here. Not knocking them, they've got a pretty big area to cover.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Like in all things OPSEC redundancy is key. Our home security system uses the Internet, if that's not available that uses a landline phone, if that's not available it uses a cellular backup. The system regularly communicates with the host and if no signal is received at the predetermined interval a response is automatically initiated. Even if I'm standing at the control panel with a gun to my temple, I can enter the emergency response code which will seem to turn the system off but will actually initiate a panic alarm response.

There are so many things that people can do to protect themselves. Simple things like replacing short screws with long screws. But unfortunately most people just don't seem to care or won't accept that they might become victimized. I have even had people who were burglarized refuse to take additional measures under the premise that lightning doesn't strike in the same place twice, even though we all know it does.


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## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

OK, what keeps popping in my mind related to that picture.

What did the owner have in that red Solo cup on the top shelf that was so important he had to put it in the safe? Must have had sentimental value only as the burglar(s) didn't seem to want it.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

That is the rare red solo cup Willie Nelson chucked off stage in 2003. Had the burglars read the certificate of authenticity that would have been the first thing they took.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

I know of another instance in which the guy thought his safe was all he needed. Couldn't keep his mouth shut about it. One night his front door was nearly knocked off the hinges and he was facing a couple of guys with guns. One had his wife and said "open the safe or else." He opened the safe. They tied the couple up and cleaned out the safe and were never heard from or seen again. Nor were the guns he had so joyously told the whole world about.


First rule ... keep your mouth shut! Rule two ... multiple layers of security.


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## Balls004 (Feb 28, 2015)

Well said MMM!!!!!


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

There is a guy who lives about 3-4 blocks from me who ordered a large gun safe around Christmas time. When it arrived he apparently found out that delivery meant to the curb and not inside the house. He had the truck driver just leave it in the driveway (for 3-4 days) while he arranged for someone to come with a stair-climbing hand truck/cart to help him get it in the basement. It was wrapped in clear plastic and he didn't even bother to put a blanket or something on it. He has yet to be robbed (as far as I know) but I imagine it is just a matter of time.


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## sgtusmc98 (Sep 8, 2013)

Keeping your mouth shut is definitely one of the best security protocols there is, nothing is impenetrable and everyone can be beat.

I wish I remembered the story better but in one of my anti terrorism classes the instructor talked about bragging, he spoke of a guy that was one of the best anti terrorist gurus in Britain (that's where I was then) and how he openly sad the IRA couldn't get him. He was wrong. If he had kept his mouth shut they probably would have left him alone.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

I'm in the process of picking out a safe. Which attacks do I have to worry about and what do I want to look for in a safe.


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## sgtusmc98 (Sep 8, 2013)

Caribou said:


> I'm in the process of picking out a safe. Which attacks do I have to worry about and what do I want to look for in a safe.


One of the things I like in a safe that is hard to get is the old mechanical combination lock not the digital key pad. I know the key pad is supposed to be harder to get into but I don't want to buy batteries (what if you can't? Long term grid down) or if the pad messes up (EMP)? In those situations I don't want my safe down. More than likely if my safe gets opened it will be like the picture Sentry showed, not some high speed safe cracker.


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## oldasrocks (Jun 30, 2012)

Add a bottle of CO2 inside connected to a 100 PSI valve that runs through a copper tube next to the outside steel Any cutting attempt will result in melting the copper tubing and releasing pressurized CO2 that will both put out any fire and make breathing difficult for the bad guys. They will hear the hissing and assume its poison gas of some type since breathing is difficult.

This has actually worked.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*The back wall*

The back wall of a gunsafe is 1/4 inch thick.

You can drill and saw through the back wall in 30 minutes and empty the safe.

Gun safes are to prevent unauthorized access to weapons.

While they provide some level of security from the average burglar, they do not provide security from a professional .

For that kind of security, you need a real safe.

A real safe has a rating that measures the number of minuets required for a professional to open the safe.

If you have cash, silver, gold or jewels, a good hiding place is better than a gun safe.


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## Resto (Sep 7, 2012)

Caribou said:


> I'm in the process of picking out a safe. Which attacks do I have to worry about and what do I want to look for in a safe.


Most Safes that you or I could afford,only have a Guarantee of 20 minutes against an Attack. That's better than nothing. Most thieves don't have the experience to mess with a good safe. For a "Dial Combination", I recommend "S&G" (Sargent and Greenleaf) with a Key in the center of the dial. I wont explain why. This is what the Fed Uses, all agencies use it. I was a Field Tech for the Fed until last year, when I retired. Part of my Job was Opening "Lock Outs" on Mosler Vaults. I know the S&Gs by heart. Next time you are at the Bank and the vault door is open, look at the Combination Mechanism through the clear plastic back on the Vault door, it will be an S&G with a complex timer, and lots of Relockers, the combination lock itself is only around 300 bucks. Most Locksmith shops carry them. S&Gs have "Relockers" built into them to resist tampering. Once a relocker trips, all you can do is "Drill It" or "Cut It" like the safe in the ops pic. With all that you still only get 20 minutes against someone who knows what they are doing or any Idiot with a Big enough Torch. On the Bright side, crack head Home invaders wont mess with safes, but if they see one they might tell someone who does for a small fee.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

Caribou said:


> I'm in the process of picking out a safe. Which attacks do I have to worry about and what do I want to look for in a safe.


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## Mase92 (Feb 4, 2013)

Not a whole lot to add, other than to say, great thread thanks for posting this up Sentry and to echo what MMM said....keep your yap shut and have layers. If someone with enough skill wants something they will get it. The point is to make the skillless dirtbags work for it long enough that they get caught.


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## millertimedoneright (May 13, 2013)

Only way to keep a safe out of harms way is to make sure thieves don't know about it and can't find it.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

Years ago I was looking at gun safes. After looking closely at several at my local gun shop I decided to not buy. The gun safes on the market really aren't safes at all, they are just lock boxes with some fire protection.

I have a 100 year old former commercial safe that I got at an estate sale. If I compared the 2 it would be like comparing a toy to a Sherman tank. My commercial safe has outside walls that are all 1 inch thick solid steel. The total thickness of the walls is 5 inches, when you shut the door, it has to be shut slowly to allow the air to escape and the crack between the door and the safe is less then a 32nd of an inch. The door has 1.25 inch solid steel locking pins on the door opening side and the hinge side of the door. It weights some where near 500 pounds and can only be moved with an engine lift. Keep in mind that this is a small safe.

At the locksmith shop, I tried to find an equivalent safe and all were flimsy. My opinion is that the average person can not buy a professional commercial safe at any price.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Real safes are available, but usually have to be part of new construction or a serious remodel. I know a person who bought a vault door from a bank that was being torn down and then had it become part of his basement. Never seen how it turned out because he won't let anyone into his basement (smart man). A safe or security cabinet or something in between all do what they are supposed to do, but only as one part of an overall security plan. I have known people to make gun "safes" out of vending machines, upright freezers, etc. They use concealment and misdirection, which is just as good if your OPSEC is too. The best place I have found for security items is government auctions. I purchased two high security filing cabinets from a joint state/federal auction. Mosler Class 5 and Mosler Class 6. I presume they contained the files about who really shot JFK and what really happened at area 51 because they were very well built (in like in the 70's) and extremely heavy. Already secure and with built in fire protection, all I had to do was line the Class 6 with fire retardant foam and install some reusable dehumidifiers to have two instant pistol safes the Class 5 already had a "roll out rack" built in.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

I agree with the idea that the best place to store guns and valuables is in some thing that doesn't look like there would be anything of value inside. If a thug breaks in and sees a safe, it's like a solid gold invitation to try to get inside. The best that anyone can do is to hide the safe as something else by building a cabinet around it. 

But with out a doubt, OPSEC is king. Never talk to friends about it and never let any one see it. Whether you have a safe or not, I think that OPSEC is a more valuable security measure then any other thing that you can do.


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## phideaux (Nov 7, 2015)

Heres an idea for ya,
I sleep well at night..
28,000 lbs on concrete ,wrapped around another 1500 lbs of steel.


















Jim


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

The idea of having 2 safes is interesting. The bad guys would have to decide which to break into.


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## phideaux (Nov 7, 2015)

and ...unless they are well prepared , spending a lot of time using cutting torches , to get thru the reinforced steel door.



Jim


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Here's a picture of my gun room / man cave. Of course everything I consider to be top secret has been redacted. If you look really close in the bottom left corner...ooops...nope, that was redacted too.


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## alwaysready (May 16, 2012)

Sentry18 said:


> Here's a picture of my gun room / man cave. Of course everything I consider to be top secret has been redacted. If you look really close in the bottom left corner...ooops...nope, that was redacted too.


This is by far the best example of OPSEC I have ever seen!


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

It would have been better OPSEC if sentry had not said it was a gun room.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

True. But to be fair every room I have or am in is a gun room.


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## Balls004 (Feb 28, 2015)

Sentry18 said:


> True. But to be fair every room I have or am in is a gun room.


And that my friend more than likely makes you a Republican! Your OPSEC is steadily declining! :lalala:


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Republican!? Those liberal moderates? No way! I am far to conservative to be a Republican.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

Tweto said:


> I agree with the idea that the best place to store guns and valuables is in some thing that doesn't look like there would be anything of value inside.


I used to think this was a good gun safe, not because of the engineering, but because of the disguise. My grandmother kept all her valuables in her freezer. I have heard they are good to keep valuables safe in a fire. I don't know if that is really true or not.

My upright freezer has frozen food in it. I think the lock on it could be easily broken into.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

I like this idea, but unfortunately no one would ever believe that people actually drink Pepsi.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

Sentry18 said:


> I like this idea, but unfortunately no one would ever believe that people actually drink Pepsi.


I would think any kind of soda machine would not be safe. Too many people cannot get through the day without one or two or six or more.


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## ras1219como (Jan 15, 2013)

Freezers are not a good place to hide valuables. Many thugs hide their own "valuables" (drugs & money) in freezers...usually in an open bag of chicken strips or something similar. They know people are likely to hide items here and in many cases will look through the refrigerator and freezer. I cannot count how many search warrants have ended with us finding dope in the bag of frozen tater tots...


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## Balls004 (Feb 28, 2015)

The best gun hide I've seen was built by a friend of mine, his wife wanted a new dining island (or whatever you call that bar like thing between the kitchen and dining room. Quite the woodworker, he built a really nice one for her. But what made it really neat, was the top was mounted on slides, and when the wooden locks were released, it would slide open to reveal a very nice nest of shotguns and rifles. Needless to say, it was very ordinary looking, and only family knew about it (I was sort of adopted by them after their son died). Wish I had a picture of it, many of you would appreciate the craftsmanship that went into it.

It might give y'all some ideas though...


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

ras1219como said:


> Freezers are not a good place to hide valuables. Many thugs hide their own "valuables" (drugs & money) in freezers...usually in an open bag of chicken strips or something similar. They know people are likely to hide items here and in many cases will look through the refrigerator and freezer. I cannot count how many search warrants have ended with us finding dope in the bag of frozen tater tots...


Freezers, under mattresses, in or under drawers have probably been the commonly used places to stash goods: drugs, money, deeds, etc.

I wonder where in a home would be a good place to hide stuff that would keep it safe and not likely found even by law enforcement?

In the movie Desperado, Carolina hides all her wealth in a book in her book store, which is then burned down and all her money is lost.

In South Dakota after the 1930s and bank failures, it was said that people buried their money in canning jars in their yards. One family in my home county had the man who buried the money die, and it was never recovered. There is probably a little bit of that out there.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

weedygarden said:


> I wonder where in a home would be a good place to hide stuff that would keep it safe and not likely found even by law enforcement?
> .


Hidden compartments in cabinets walls and floors might work. You are already aware of the burry it in the yard option. If you don't care about frequent access then you can cut a hole in an interior wall, place your item(s) inside, patch and paint the wall and just let it sit.

Remember that both cops and criminals have been searching for hidden items for generations. Only the people with experience know effective hiding places and if they are talking they already lost what was hidden. Part of hiding is the luck of the draw. I've heard stories of people forgetting about their gun and walking right through airport security. I've heard other stories where a stash was found and I couldn't understand what made the searcher look there.

There was an old building on a piece of property that my parents purchased. I played in it quite a bit as a youth and had a great time exploring it. Years later my brothers found a pocket watch in a hidden compartment that the previous owner had received from the railroad when he retired. We were able to return that to the family. You just never know.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

We bought a small fireproof safe. We haven't told anybody about it except here.


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## ras1219como (Jan 15, 2013)

Weedy, I have seen things hidden in the strangest places where most people would never think to look. I only found the items because of sheer luck and the fact that it was my job to find the stuff. 

The best advice I have is to be creative. Think of something unusual that isn't common place. For example if you're looking for a place to temporarily store small items or money inside a vacuum cleaner bag/container is a good place. It's out of the way, unusual, and unlikely to he thought of by bad guys.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

I was once told by an FTO (during my tour with investigations) while doing my first warrant service "The best hiding spots take a few minutes to get to. If it takes work most people will just stop looking and move on." He walked in with a small bag of tools from the trunk. Next thing you know he starts pulling off vent covers and outlet plates. Sure enough he found a small bag of cash stuffed into a cold air return and one of the outlets turned out to be fake (but was empty). Another Detective climbed up into the attic access and starts peeling back insulation all around the access, came down with a handgun. These guy had searched 100's of houses and it showed. 

Commercial solutions, like picture frames, clocks, fake cans of Coke, etc. with built in storage are the second places criminal checks. The first is of course dresser drawers, freezers and under mattresses. People are creature of habit and both cops and criminals know that very well. Do you know how often we find passwords taped under keyboards and lock boxes with keys or combos nearby? Or how often we find those small fire resistance safes or file holders and they are not even locked or bolted down? So often it's sad. Just like gun safes, if the criminal has time that are going to find it. Some people just make it a whole lot easier than others. 

Rather than worry about hiding places, I put my focus on deterrence and detection.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

Sentry18 said:


> ... These guy had searched 100's of houses and it showed. ...


Bank Teller has heard all of the jokes. 
Withdraw $50, "How would you like that?" 
"Hundreds would be fine", you answer.

An experience person would know of the common and uncommon hiding places. So I figure the best hiding place is on property that can't be traced back to you.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Well I can tell you that Rotties are helpful in keeping your stuff safe, but only when that rottie isn't as lazy as this one. Dammit Klaus! You had one job!


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## offgridcooker (Mar 5, 2012)

Sentry18 said:


> I have known people to make gun "safes" out of vending machines, upright freezers, etc. They use concealment and misdirection, which is just as good if your OPSEC is too.


I keep a small lock box full of silver plated silverware and nickels, with a note on it to "put silver in safety deposit box"


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## readytogo (Apr 6, 2013)

Loose lips sink ships….
This old phrase carries a lot of weight and pure common sense, back in my younger days if I had talk too much I could have put my father in jail, like mentioning his illegal transistor radio or the activities to find food or prohibited goods, in the Army it was heavily repeated by my instructors and officers, especially while station at the DMZ, Korea. You heartily hear it any more till the other day at my friend’s house; I was showing some home canning jars of food to them and the topic came up of range shooting and been follow home from the range, it turns out that one of his friends was at the range and had a nice conversation with another shooter there, he had brag about his weapons and ammo his safe and reloading set up in the garage ,well to make a long story short, he got hit ,although no weapons were stolen, jewelry, cash ,digital cameras and some tools were taken. The safe was hit but it never broke open, the officers there recommended that he should have kept his mouth shut and pay more attention to the road behind him. And this guy has a college degree.


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## readytogo (Apr 6, 2013)

I have install several of this type in different areas of the home and garage, so far they have never been found by the bad guys.
http://www.nationwidesafes.com/in-f...ign=allprods&gclid=CMuflOeFjMsCFQiQaQodDZcJnQ


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## chaosjourney (Nov 1, 2012)

The best safe is really anywhere that keeps your valuables your valuables. You really can't trust anyone with some information. 

An old man I knew passed away and one of his sons found a few large silver bars wrapped in old socks and used as door stops for decades.


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## jeff47041 (Jan 5, 2013)

chaosjourney said:


> The best safe is really anywhere that keeps your valuables your valuables. You really can't trust anyone with some information.
> 
> An old man I knew passed away and one of his sons found a few large silver bars wrapped in old socks and used as door stops for decades.


Hidden, right in front of everyone....Love that!


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*The secptic tank*

Place your precious metals in a PVC pipe and sink it in your septic tank.


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