# Fracking?



## MetalPrepper (Nov 25, 2012)

I'm just curious, some of you live in pretty rural areas, have any of you or any of your friends experienced fracking near you ? If so, how has it affected the land, water table etc? I keep reading both sides of the story and want to hear the facts fromn someone first hand if possible. :wave:


----------



## Jason (Jul 25, 2009)

MetalPrepper, the gas company (EQT) is in our township now, drilling the first of seven Marcellus deep wells. It's clear across the township from our farm but you can see the light from their work lights even from our place. Our farm is on the short list of places for one of the other wells.

We have banded together with several dozen other landowners to hire a law firm to represent us in dealing with the gas company. So far not much has happened.

As far as fracking goes, they drill the well bore, then force water, sand, and some pretty nasty chemicals into the hole under incredible pressure to fracture (frack) the shale rock that contains the gas. I think the sand stays in the cracks to hold them open. We have a spring, not a deep well, and the well bores (there will be 10 seperate wells, called legs) on our place if this happens) won't go under my spring, so I don't think our water will be compromised but they have already agreed to replace our water if it happens. 

Mods, if there is enough interest in this, should we make a sticky for deep well drilling and related subjects?


----------



## redhorse (Dec 27, 2012)

I'd like to see a sticky also. They will be drilling just down the road from us in the next 6-12 months, and it will be under my property. The lease most of us signed around here also has a provision stating that restitution must be made if the water is damaged. Supposedly, from what the land men have said in the community meetings we had, the fracking is down way to far to affect our water table. But I'm curious if anyone has fracking going on on right now under their property, and if there has been any issues?


----------



## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

MetalPrepper said:


> I'm just curious, some of you live in pretty rural areas, have any of you or any of your friends experienced fracking near you ? If so, how has it affected the land, water table etc? I keep reading both sides of the story and want to hear the facts fromn someone first hand if possible. :wave:


I live in Alberta which is the home for the fracking as we know it today. From my understanding, we have used fracturing (frac) for over 60 years with no known problems to exist in our province due to fracking. Depending on the land, some places might have issues (small earthquakes) as the land settles after the frac-process has completed, but, there have been no reported earthquakes in our province that are directly related to frac ...

Some light reading: http://www.morefactslessfriction.ca/?page_id=372&lang=en&numb2&gclid=CIiH77OJtrUCFU1yQgod3V8AKQ


----------



## OHprepper (Feb 21, 2012)

our county has been fighting fracking for a year or two now. the college i went to is having serious financial issues, but because they are a primarily outdoors/natural resources school, they have about 1200 unused acres. they had considered fracking it, as they could make up most of the funds they needed in about a year of fracking. the board of trustees for the school sent some of our wildlife management instructors over to WV to see some fracked areas over there to make the decision. 2 weeks later those teachers came back and the proposal was squashed. we never heard anything about it again. the news we get from just over the WV border is that they are having problems with drinking water contamination. The company solution has been to ship trucks of water in to these people. From what i have heard, when the power goes out (it was out for 2 weeks last july) or when we have real bad storms, the trucks wont run out their way. so as a prepper, i would fight the fracking with everything i could stand to lose. if there is even a chance i could lose my water, it isnt worth it. if TSHTF what happens when the water trucks stop rolling?


----------



## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

NaeKid said:


> I live in Alberta which is the home for the fracking as we know it today. From my understanding, we have used fracturing (frac) for over 60 years with no known problems to exist in our province due to fracking. Depending on the land, some places might have issues (small earthquakes) as the land settles after the frac-process has completed, but, there have been no reported earthquakes in our province that are directly related to frac ...


Fracking has been around for years and is always used to create fissures in the rock in an attempt to get a higher flow of oil/gas in order to make a well more productive.

A 'normal' oil/gas well tends to be 5x or more deeper than a typical water well.
http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_crd_welldep_s1_a.htm

Are there shallow oil/gas wells? Yes. But most of the easily recoverable oil/gas in shallow wells was pumped out years ago.

There are usually intervening layers of clay/rock (strata) between where oil/gas is found and where water is found. These layers protect against any possible contamination.


----------



## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

This is a pretty touchy subject. In central Alberta I know of people who have had their water horribly contaminated by conventional drilling, if you can prove it they will pay but how much? I consider a well that is not extremely deep and has produced amazing water for 100 years to be near priceless, how can they replace that? They offer to pay to truck water (good luck if shtf), or drill a well to the next aquifer if possible (like 300ft down and not nice water, they will provide distiller, again good luck if shtf) 

Everything I know about fracking indicates the kinds of things that you never want to do to an aquifer. Whether it is worth the risk or not should be up to the owner of the property which it will affect, but we do not live in a free world/market where property rights are protected.


----------



## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Yes they are deeper, but that is kind of the point, first they have to drill through the aquifer, they have no magical way of sealing off the two like some would have you believe. Then by combining pressure with the vibrations and cracking you are doing exactly the things that would cause contamination into the aquifer above. This is also not an exact science they do not know before hand how much pressure or fracking materials they will need, mistakes are made on oil field rigs all the time, believe me I know.
I am not saying that fracking should not be allowed just that the property owners should have the decision.


----------



## redhorse (Dec 27, 2012)

Even if we decided against signing a lease, with all the drilling going on in my neck of the woods, I would imagine my well would still be affected if there was contamination, and without the lease to protect me, there wouldn't be any restitution. I sure hope it doesn't come to that. I wonder if livestock could still drink the water, and still be safe for consumption? They have a 30 inch pipeline planned to come through a few farms down also. I worry much more about that. There was a pipeline that exploded about 40 miles from here a year or so ago. The shock wave rattled my windows hard enough to wake me up, and the glowfrom the fire was very visible. Thankfully it wasn't anywhere near homes, and no one was hurt, but I'd hate to see one explode less than a mile from me. We do have several operational shallow wells around here, which have not caused anything negative, and they've been here for decades.


----------



## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

The folks that worry about fracking are right up there with those who worry about high tension electrical lines. They have been fracking 'round here for years with no adverse effects. I am on the edge of the Eagle Ford Shale.


----------



## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Sorry if I made it seem like something to be afraid of, I am certain that MOST people will not suffer ANY consequences from this kind of thing.

In the particular incident that I know very well locally, the water was NOT usable by my definition. There were things floating in it and harmful chemicals, the oil company in question at first considered "fixing" the well but later just offered money (along with complimentary non-disclosure agreement ). As far as can be determined this incident was caused by poor drilling practices and not an indictment against drilling in general except that mistakes seem to happen quite a bit with drilling in general. We have a dead patch on a field 50 years later from when they did drilling, they rented that land but it was not voluntary on our part.


----------



## redhorse (Dec 27, 2012)

swjohnsey said:


> The folks that worry about fracking are right up there with those who worry about high tension electrical lines. They have been fracking 'round here for years with no adverse effects. I am on the edge of the Eagle Ford Shale.


Those of us that will be affected have every right to be worried, you can't always trust what the powers that be tell you, especially with the kind of money being thrown around. It is something new for a lot of property owners, and like Metalprepper said, there are two very vocal points of view. Great to hear you have had no issues! I sure hope there are none in my neighborhood either. In the mean time, it has had a dramatic effect on our local economy in a very positive way.


----------



## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

It is easy to say that people who are worried about something are nuts, that's what most say about preppers. They have found fracking fluid in ground water that to me is an adverse affect on it's own, whether or not the risks outweigh the benefits is another matter, suggesting there are no risks ignores the evidence.

Some info with citations for those interested.
http://www.landownerassociation.ca/rsrcs/WaterContaminationFactSheet.pdf


----------



## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

That piece if a mixture of half truth and plain ole lies. Natural gas is a cheap, clean source of energy. Ain't nothin' that doesn't have some risk. Natural gas will replace coal as a source of energy. You have any idea how many folks die from coal mining every year? How much polution it creates?


----------



## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

I have a pretty good idea of how many people die from coal mining and am well aware of the pollution and other problems it can create along with the possible ways of reducing those problems. The question here is whether or not we know the risk associated with fracking and whether or not we force people to be subject to them against their will.


----------



## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

Been fracking since 1947, been fracking on a large scale in Texas since 1998. They have been fracking the Eagle Ford Shale right next to me for the last several years. Can't say that I have heard of a single well contaminated by fracking. Fracking occurs literally miles below the water table.


----------



## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

I can’t believe folks think it is fine to pump toxic and carcinogenic chemicals into the earth and say all is well.

And that is all I have to say about that.


----------



## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

If you haven't heard of a SINGLE well contaminated you must keep your ears closed pretty tight 
Despite large sums of money and non-disclosure settlements this has been documented from the very beginning, in 1987 for instance there is a case where the American Petroleum Institute accepts that this well, drilled at 4000ft leaked fracking fluid into the ground water.

http://www.ewg.org/release/epa-report-fracking-contaminated-drinking-water

I could list more but now at least you will not have to say you have not heard of a single case


----------



## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

Do you read the stuff you post? One well in 1987 in West Virginia? I believe the fracking 'round here is below 10,000 feet not 4,000 feet.


----------



## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

Woody said:


> I can't believe folks think it is fine to pump toxic and carcinogenic chemicals into the earth and say all is well.
> 
> And that is all I have to say about that.


Everything causes cancer. You ever read how much radiation is released just from burning coal?


----------



## Wanderer0101 (Nov 8, 2011)

cowboyhermit said:


> Yes they are deeper, but that is kind of the point, first they have to drill through the aquifer, they have no magical way of sealing off the two like some would have you believe. Then by combining pressure with the vibrations and cracking you are doing exactly the things that would cause contamination into the aquifer above. This is also not an exact science they do not know before hand how much pressure or fracking materials they will need, mistakes are made on oil field rigs all the time, believe me I know.
> I am not saying that fracking should not be allowed just that the property owners should have the decision.


Your statement is simply not true. There is a "magical" way of sealing off the various zones that intersect the pipe. It's called cement. This is not just ordinary cement but stuff that's been designed specifically for this purpose and which can include a lot of different additives to make it work better. Oil companies and service companies spend millions of dollars in research and testing to make sure this stuff does what it's supposed to. Once it is in place the integrity can be assessed through wire line logging and if necessary it can be repaired. The actual fracking typically takes place thousands of feet away from potable water zones and there is not one single documented case of fracking contaminating a potable water zone in spite of the environazi propaganda that you hear. Let me repeat that, not one single documented case in 100,000s of wells. Frack and enjoy the money that comes in.

"Vibrations" have bugger all to do with it by the way.


----------



## Wanderer0101 (Nov 8, 2011)

Woody said:


> I can't believe folks think it is fine to pump toxic and carcinogenic chemicals into the earth and say all is well.
> 
> And that is all I have to say about that.


Good, because you clearly don't now anything about the subject.


----------



## Wanderer0101 (Nov 8, 2011)

cowboyhermit said:


> If you haven't heard of a SINGLE well contaminated you must keep your ears closed pretty tight
> Despite large sums of money and non-disclosure settlements this has been documented from the very beginning, in 1987 for instance there is a case where the American Petroleum Institute accepts that this well, drilled at 4000ft leaked fracking fluid into the ground water.
> 
> http://www.ewg.org/release/epa-report-fracking-contaminated-drinking-water
> ...


This case, which they clearly had to search exhaustively to find, is not in any way representative of the fracking operation and its spotless record. At best this has to do with fluid migration through a reservoir and reaching some old wells that hadn't been properly abandoned. It has absolutely zip to do with fracking. Of course facts don't have anything to do with subjects like this, it's all about emotion.


----------



## MetalPrepper (Nov 25, 2012)

Well all of your responses sure clear it up for me.....(LOL....NOT!) I see that the mixed reviews I read elsewhere are also here. I alternate between thinking it would be good for the economy to "oh my God, we have a well!!" I am in NC and they are talking about it...a lot.....I doubt it would occur any where near to us, but since our well is deep I wonder about the aquifer. I guess I'll just keep listening to both sides.


----------



## redhorse (Dec 27, 2012)

MetalPrepper said:


> Well all of your responses sure clear it up for me.....(LOL....NOT!) I see that the mixed reviews I read elsewhere are also here. I alternate between thinking it would be good for the economy to "oh my God, we have a well!!" I am in NC and they are talking about it...a lot.....I doubt it would occur any where near to us, but since our well is deep I wonder about the aquifer. I guess I'll just keep listening to both sides.


Yeah this is about how it went down at all of our community meetings we had. I'm with you, still somewhere in the middle. We all pretty much gave in when we realized we were at least somewhat protected with a lease developed with an attorney for the entire group. The primary concern was of course water. If they want to drill, there's no stopping it after some of the big farms signed up. That money is pretty hard to pass up too.


----------



## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

They have been drilling and fracing in this area as long as I have been alive(50+ years) and I know of no well contamination anywhere in the area.

In the last 5 or so years, they have picked up drilling in the Barnett Shale for gas and still haven't heard of problems with it. We have a few of the new wells nearby and no problems have surfaced concerning the fracing. Some of the locals around here are so crotchety that if anything out of the ordinary came about, they would make a big fuss.

Theirs more talk here about the earthquakes than the fracing itself.


----------



## Erick3758 (Aug 9, 2011)

Here in the marcellous shale we hit water about 300 foot when we drill surface.we drill straight down to 6000-8500 foot before we turn.there is a lot of testing that takes place to ensure all of the cement layers are sound.the last thing A company wants is a problem.where we are drilling the Utica is quite a bit deeper.we are not permitted to go below the Marcellus yet.in Ohio we are drilling the Utica.very busy there.


----------



## Country Living (Dec 15, 2009)

For our area of Texas, it's not so much the fracking - it's the salt water injection wells that are causing a problem with the water wells. Oh, the big whigs at the oil and gas companies say it's impossible to have salt water contamination because they inject it back into the earth several thousand feet. Tell that to all the people in about a five mile radius of a salt water injection well their water well is suddenly salty because... well...... it just is.

Another problem with the salt water injection wells - I know I'm digressing - is the wear and tear on the roads. Those heavy trucks do millions of dollars of damage and the counties are left to repair on their own. 

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program.


----------



## Erick3758 (Aug 9, 2011)

Here in New York State the debate is very heated towards drilling and fracking.i feel everyone is entitled to there opinion .the best way to get a point across is get a large number of people to stop supporting the industry.that would be gas ,heating oil,electricity ,butane ,propane ,natural gas,plastics,and any products that were delivered by truck or train.im sure I'm forgetting a lot.a lot of people here are good with fracking...as long as its somewhere else.


----------



## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

No kidding it is all about emotion, but on both sides.
I have stated all along that I am not opposed to fracking but the willful ignorance of those who say there is no risk is ridiculous, especially when they accuse others of the same.

How many people have said "*not one case of a well being contaminated by fracking*" 
It takes me two seconds to post a well documented example in which the API agrees that fracking at 4000ft caused the contamination. So what is the response? Is it oh really, I guess there is a legitimate risk, though it may be small? No it is the typical "naa naa naa naa naa, I'm not listening"
Tomorrow they will say they have NEVER heard of a well being contaminated by fracking.


----------



## Ireight (Dec 11, 2012)

I'm in ND and often travel into and deal with customers in the Bakken, I can't count how many times I've been told "oh yeah, my wife's cousins brother in law had his well bubbling horrid gasses and is now poison water". And to each time I say well I'd love to talk to him and get more info. And to this day no one actually has a well gone bad. 
In the link above from 87 I have $10 that says it was a crap well before any fracking ever started within 100 miles. 
And by the way I'm not in the business I am in construction but do own 400 acres of farmland on the edge of the Bakken. 
If you really want to hear about waste and ruining property, ask me about wind towers.


----------



## thenance007 (Oct 8, 2012)

I would suggest watching the documentary "GasLand" before you assume that fracking is always harmless. Scared the h*** out of me, even assuming these incidents are the exception, not the norm. The people and entire communities affected by it in the movie certainly weren't expecting to have the water coming out of their faucets to be flammable. Not saying it happens often, but obviously it happens often enough that I would be very concerned if they started fracking near my land.


----------



## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

This is exactly why these discusions go nowhere. You assersion that the well was bad anyways makes NO sense, if it was just the epa I would understand, many people don't trust them but the API would not have agreed that it was caused by fracking if that was the case.

I agree that there are unsubstantiated claims of wells being ruined, that is why they are usually tested before and after drilling. There are people on the other side that say there is NO risk, which is ridiculous.


----------



## redhorse (Dec 27, 2012)

thenance007 said:


> I would suggest watching the documentary "GasLand" before you assume that fracking is always harmless. Scared the h*** out of me, even assuming these incidents are the exception, not the norm. The people and entire communities affected by it in the movie certainly weren't expecting to have the water coming out of their faucets to be flammable. Not saying it happens often, but obviously it happens often enough that I would be very concerned if they started fracking near my land.


This example actually came up in a community discussion. Aparently the water wells, and water subsequently drawn from them had been like that since the 1800s, before any gas wells had been drawn. It was just a natural occurance. It was brought up by the land (gas) men presenting their case. I have no way to document it myself, I suppose an internet search is in order. They did have some old reports of the 'fire water' from said 1800s as evidence, but as I stated earlier, I don't always believe what I am shown. Most especially with all the money involved....

I'm still with cowboyhermit. There has to be some impact surely, but if it isn't makingthe water undrinkable, I suppose I am ok with it. Time will tell, the rigs are drilling within two miles from me now. But anyone that wants a job and can pass a drug test has a job, and our local economy is screaming along like back in the coal and iron days.

CountryLiving, yep, they are killing the roads. All those water trucks back and forth do not make for happy flat blacktop. We also still have a bunch of barely graveled dirt roads that have become rutted out mud pits. Fun when I bust out my Big Red to play, not so much when I want to drive my little car. We have gotten a lot of rain and snow melt, but still. I suppose once the wells are in place and the drilling rigs leave, the roads will be repaired.


----------



## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

cowboyhermit said:


> This is exactly why these discusions go nowhere. You assersion that the well was bad anyways makes NO sense, if it was just the epa I would understand, many people don't trust them but the API would not have agreed that it was caused by fracking if that was the case.
> 
> I agree that there are unsubstantiated claims of wells being ruined, that is why they are usually tested before and after drilling. There are people on the other side that say there is NO risk, which is ridiculous.


I'm open to discussion, I've just never heard of a water well in this area being damaged by drilling or fracing. If someone had a problem here, it'd be all over the news and in the scuttlebutt.

The disposal wells are another story.


----------



## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Sorry Davarm, I did notice that you were referring to your own area and I was not referring to anyone personally. I think that it is good for people to know what you have seen because for many this will inevitably happen in their area. I believe that most people's wells will not be affected 

The geological characteristics of some areas will make the likelihood of problems even more remote while others may be more susceptible depending on a long list of factors.


----------



## JulieLi (Nov 14, 2012)

I live in Texas and we have had quite a bit of fracking within a couple of miles of us. It stirs up the water table and we have occasionally had sand in our well water. We just had to replace our pump last year.


----------



## Erick3758 (Aug 9, 2011)

I believe any large industry will have accidents. To say they won't is crazy.the IBM in Endicott ny polluted the ground water for thousands of people.we still use the products.the coal power plant i worked at till it closed was the number one polluter in New York State .people protested but still bought the power.i really think as the prices rise we will be drilling in the states that did not want it before.politicians love money.the company i work for has pretty strict environmental policies .if the hurt a well its very costly.
The local news in Binghamton New York did a story a couple of years ago about people lighting the water on fire.they showed families in many different towns.the families said we have been doing this as long as we can remember.i think that clip helped the industry.new York is still trying to figure out if we can frack in the state.no permits yet.


----------



## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

I didn't see this posted already so I'll throw it out for consideration.

When they pump their fracking fluid into the ground, it contains chemicals X, Y & Z. When they pull it back out, it contains A, B, C _and through W_ as well as their X, Y &Z. Mom Earth has contaminated the fracking mix. There's a lot of "stuff" way down there that's been picked up by the fracking fluids. Yes, it needs to be taken care of properly when pulled back out but be advised that a lot of it came out of the Earth itself. It's not just the chemicals they used when pumping it in.


----------



## Wanderer0101 (Nov 8, 2011)

cowboyhermit said:


> No kidding it is all about emotion, but on both sides.
> I have stated all along that I am not opposed to fracking but the willful ignorance of those who say there is no risk is ridiculous, especially when they accuse others of the same.
> 
> How many people have said "*not one case of a well being contaminated by fracking*"
> ...


One side is all about emotion and one side is all about fact. As I already pointed out your example is garbage. Either you are incapable of understanding what they actually wrote or you just prefer your emotive anti-energy stance.


----------



## Wanderer0101 (Nov 8, 2011)

thenance007 said:


> I would suggest watching the documentary "GasLand" before you assume that fracking is always harmless. Scared the h*** out of me, even assuming these incidents are the exception, not the norm. The people and entire communities affected by it in the movie certainly weren't expecting to have the water coming out of their faucets to be flammable. Not saying it happens often, but obviously it happens often enough that I would be very concerned if they started fracking near my land.


Gasland, that would be the 100% lying propanda piece put out by anti-energy zealots which has been completely discredited. But don't let me bother you with the facts.


----------



## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

I wish I could have fracking at my house!! Seriously, most water wells don't go below 500 ft in my area (we are on city resevoir water anyway) and the gas around here is 6 to 8 thousand feet down. So those nasty chemicals have to seep up at a minimum of 500 feet through clay sand and rock??? Sign me up for 2 wells baby cause dad has Vegas money coming in!! I recently spoke to a widow (a hardcore democrat BTW) and she was complaining about all the new gas wells along I-70 here in Colorado. She said they ruin the land and the view. I asked her how she heated her house. She said the thermostat. Like the thermostat is frickin magic and heats her home all by itself. I explained she burned gas to heat her home from her furnace. She also has a gas stove. Apparently she never made the connection in her pea brain that the nasty med ruining her views also made heating and cooking possible. I explained to her that her other option was wood fueled fire like everyone did since the dawn of time. She got irritated and said "they" would figure something else out. And that is who we fight. The complete ******* who votes religiously but can't quite figure out how her life is sustained and somebody somewhere will develop an app that will keep her warm and cook her eggs in the morning. Another average democrat voting idiot.


----------



## OHprepper (Feb 21, 2012)

ok, i cant argue with facts. i understand there are people on this site that have had no problem with fracking.... there are plenty of others who have. i feel like all i can do is attempt to get my information from credible sources. i feel these ones show that there HAVE BEEN problems with fracking. i am not saying that ALL fracking operations cause contaminates. I AM saying there have been enough situations where it has happened that i would fight it in my area.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=fracking-for-natural-gas-pollutes-water-wells
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203501304577086472373346232.html
http://eponline.com/articles/2012/0...sks-from-fracking-to-recover-natural-gas.aspx


----------



## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

You should boycott natural gas and electricity.


----------



## OHprepper (Feb 21, 2012)

or i could just keep up my solar panels


----------



## GaryS (Nov 15, 2011)

There are a half-dozen gas wells within sight of my new house here in TX, and I have friends all over the Bakken formation in ND. I've not heard of one substantiated claim of water contamination from fracking. Damage above ground from salt water spills, yes, but the oil companies rush to clean them up before they become an issue for the media to overblow. Yes, roads are damaged and the wells are ugly, but most complaints come from surface rights owners who do not own the mineral rights.

FWIW, my new home will have solar panels, but every time I look at the well across the street, I'm going to be thankful for the fracking technology that's keeping us from having horrendous energy bills. I have far more fear of a few hundred collectivists in Washington than I do of the entire energy industry.


----------



## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Wanderer0101, you come across as a complete zealot who is unable to have an intelligent conversation, all you have done here is make statements with nothing to back them up and call people names.
You so eloquently pointed out that "my" example was "garbage" but your reason makes no sense. You say that it has nothing to do with fracking when the epa and the API agree that it was caused by fracking 
Your arguments are so typical of someone who wants to shut down any chance of intelligent discussion. Saying that I specifically have an "*emotive anti-energy stance*" should be ridiculous in so many ways to any objective reader of this thread. 
Is it because I repeatedly said that the risks are likely very small and most people would see no negative consequences, or maybe that I repeatedly stated that I was not opposed to fracking? But anti-energy???, that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard, does that mean I should be out protesting the sun and wind and rain?

swjohnsey says "You should boycott natural gas and electricity." Why exactly? Because someone wants to discuss the potential problems from one particular form of natural gas production? I am willing to discus the problems with any form of energy because I have an open mind and am a free thinker.

And I was proven correct though it did not take a day, GaryS what would it take for a claim to be substantiated, if the epa and the api are not proof enough.


----------



## redhorse (Dec 27, 2012)

cowboyhermit said:


> Wanderer0101, you come across as a complete zealot who is unable to have an intelligent conversation, all you have done here is make statements with nothing to back them up and call people names.
> You so eloquently pointed out that "my" example was "garbage" but your reason makes no sense. You say that it has nothing to do with fracking when the epa and the API agree that it was caused by fracking
> Your arguments are so typical of someone who wants to shut down any chance of intelligent discussion. Saying that I specifically have an "*emotive anti-energy stance*" should be ridiculous in so many ways to any objective reader of this thread.
> Is it because I repeatedly said that the risks are likely very small and most people would see no negative consequences, or maybe that I repeatedly stated that I was not opposed to fracking? But anti-energy???, that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard, does that mean I should be out protesting the sun and wind and rain?
> ...


Thank you. My thoughts EXACTLY. I for one appriciate both sides of the argument.

Fracking is a new thing in my area at least, and am glad MetalPrepper brought it up. Can we always trust what the news tells us? No. Can we always trust what multi billion dollar energy industries tell us? No. Thus questions are posted to the forum to obtain opinions and first hand knowledge from fellow members.

cowboyhermit, thank you for your opinions. All of your coments, good or bad, and several others were well thought out. Thank you to those other civilized posters as well.

Certain other people on this forum would do well to re-read their posts, and possibly rephrase them in a more forum friendly manner. Some of us are trying to learn so we can better prepare ouselves for the future. But sheesh, there are a couple seriously disrespectful persons on here that sound like spoiled winey brats. Chill out and have a beer or something. There are teenagers on here that don't behave in such a disparaging manner.


----------



## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

Ain't nothin' safe.


----------



## Erick3758 (Aug 9, 2011)

I work in the oilfield industry.i very much enjoy my job.i do miss the coal Powerplant i worked at.i live just over the border on the ny side.i work in pa.i would love to see ny allow us to work here.sounds silly but I don't really want any wells near my house.i know wher they start our area will be a prime location.its on top of a hill with woods all around.i have seen the full effects of the industry .the truck traffic is what I'm not looking forward to.


----------



## Attila (Jan 30, 2011)

I live in West Texas, and they have been fracing here for years. 70 years or so. In the early days they'd lower jars of nitro down to the production zone and set off. 

The annual space between the casing and the well bore is cemented. Packers are set inside the casing to prevent fluid from rising inside the casing around the long string (production tubing). The only way you could have migration of fluids into the water table would be for the fluid to rise from the production zone to the water table. If the water table is 250 feet from the surface and the oil well production zone is 9,500 feet the rise inside the casing would be 9,250 feet. 

All this furor about fracing is more facile hokum from the left, and their accomplices the environuts. They don't know what they're blathering about, not that that is unusual. 

The leftist hate the oil company's. Oil company's only realize at best a ten percent profit margin on investments, (drilling/production). The leftist seem to always leave this little of information out when vilifying the oil industry. Nor do they speak about the good paying jobs and opportunities oil exploration, production, and refining provides to everyone.


----------



## Attila (Jan 30, 2011)

JulieLi said:


> I live in Texas and we have had quite a bit of fracking within a couple of miles of us. It stirs up the water table and we have occasionally had sand in our well water. We just had to replace our pump last year.


I lived with only a water well for all water for nearly 30. Water wells in Texas sanding is something that happens. My guess is it's sand from when the well was drilled, or from the zone where the water is. I know my water well was just below the sandstone "redbed", so it would figure that it would produce sand.

If an oil well, or fracing actually caused any damage to the water table you would have contamination of natural gas, oil, and or production chemicals showing up in your water. I have not heard of this occurring.

Years ago north of the town of Big Spring arsenic started showing up in the water wells. The farmers blamed the oil companies, but when it was scrutinized, it was discovered the water table contamination was due to the farmers use of arsenic to kill cotton in their fields in the fall. It's simply physics: its easier to flow downward than upward, especially when flowing down is only a few hundred feet, and flowing up is many thousands of feet.


----------



## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Attila, I gave a well documented example of where fracking at 4000 feet led to contamination of a water well, this is not the norm but your comments seem to suggest it is not possible. I have always been the first one to defend oil companies when someone talks of gouging, etc, that does not mean I paint everyone who brings up a legitimate concern as a leftist environut.


----------



## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

cowboyhermit said:


> Attila, I gave a well documented example of where fracking at 4000 feet led to contamination of a water well, this is not the norm but your comments seem to suggest it is not possible. I have always been the first one to defend oil companies when someone talks of gouging, etc, that does not mean I paint everyone who brings up a legitimate concern as a leftist environut.


Well there is still speculation about that single well (accurate testing & the history of that well spewing chemicals / gases prior to fracking) but let's say that is 100% right. That well was totally destroyed by fracking. That is still 1 well of how many tens of thousands that are near fracking. Of course people love to say that big oil keeps it all hush hush when they get destroyed but that is nonsense. Numerous wells have had histories of gas coming out with the water long before fracking was even thought of. Now its blamed for every instance??


----------



## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Mojo4, thanks for making your point so calmly, I for one appreciate it. Of course there is still speculation, that should not surprise anyone, people speculate on everything known to mankind. The fact is fracking fluid was found in the water. 
I also think this has been very rare.
I am not proposing that oil companies are involved in some big conspiracy or cover up, just that it is in any company or industries best interest to keep these things at a low profile. Non-disclosure agreements are not something new and I can't fault them for wanting them. I absolutely agree that some people have had natural gas in their well water all along, here at least, you are allowed to use it, even if you don't have mineral rights as long as it is not below a certain level.


----------



## Jason (Jul 25, 2009)

http://www.oerb.com/Default.aspx?tabid=242

This video explains the fracking process. They case the well bore in cement to isolate it from the surrounding earth. I don't personally believe that the water table is jeopardized any more by deep wells than by shallow ones. The process has been around long enough now that the public is a little more educated and the gas companies can no longer run willy-nilly, if they ever did.

For us in our group, the concern is more financial. In our initial meeting with all the group members (several dozen local landowners), the landmen from the gas company waltzed in and said that they "are prepared to offer us" 12.5% production royalties. They acted like this was very generous and kept saying things like "if you sign up tomorrow" and things of that nature to try and get us on board quickly. We found out later that 12.5% is the PA state minimum for production royalties. They weren't just low balling us, they were starting negociations with the least they could offer us BY LAW. That right there chapped a lot of asses and put a big dent in the gas company's credibility. A neighbor called the land men the "used car salesmen" of the gas company, trying to offer next to nothing and make it sound like the world.

I can't stress enough that people in this situation HAVE to get a good lawyer and band together to stand up to the gasmen. They are in business to make money and regardless of what they say, they do not care about the land owners. I hope these wells in our area do happen, because we(all the land owners) stand to make a bundle, as does our township. It'll be a torn up mess for a while, then it will be done and they will move on, with just some access roads and well sites left behind. They have agreed to no onsite liquid or solid waste disposal and several other concessions already.

Just last night I noticed the rig set up at the drill site I mentioned earlier. It looks like a skyscraper. It's huge. It's around 5 miles away and I can see it rising way above the tree tops. I have mixed feelings of dread at losing my way of life to dreams of being able to make a living by just being a farmer again and not having to work off the farm.

We'll see, I guess...


----------



## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

The rig won't be there long. It is amazing how they rehab the drill pad, now. In a year nothin' but a wellhead.


----------



## Attila (Jan 30, 2011)

The nonsense of fracing rates up there with global warming, the yeti, and santa claus. 

The purpose of practical politics is to keep Boobus americanus stirred up by endlessly terrorizing the populace with one crisis after another, all of which are imaginary. The simply fact that the simpletons from hollywood are jumping on board the anti fracing bandwagon is enough to make by bullsh*t monitors go off.


----------



## Jason (Jul 25, 2009)

I hope they are in and out. That's something I do worry about. They are going to have about 30 acres of our farm tied up for the drilling/fracking phases. Two huge ponds and a dirt pile, I believe, plus the well site itself. When they are done all that will be there is a small access road and the 10 wellheads.


----------



## Erick3758 (Aug 9, 2011)

The company i work for leaves the pads.they have every intention of drilling the Utica when pa permits them.it may be quite a few years out. The oil is going to be the large payday.


----------



## Erick3758 (Aug 9, 2011)

We figure about 16 days of drilling per hole.about a week to break down move and set up.most pads we skid the rig( slide it a small distance) then put another hole.somtimes 6 holes per pad.


----------



## Jason (Jul 25, 2009)

Erick, our legal counsel is having all the Utica rights incorporated into these negotiations so that our bases are covered once that happens. And thanks for the time frame info.


----------



## Erick3758 (Aug 9, 2011)

Congratulations on the whole situation.i said it earlier, I believe every industry has a potential for accidents.i don't believe any could be 100 percent safe.i do believe most of the companies have above average safety and environment records.i have seen these wells make many farmers very wealthy.i use to work in the dimock area a lot .8 of the 10 largest producing wells are in that area.some of the people continue to give back to the community .i think it has been a good thing all around.


----------



## Jason (Jul 25, 2009)

I tear buildings down for a living with a company that has upwards of 3 million man hours over 20 years with no lost time accidents. We engineer everything down to the most minute detail and take our time. I say that to say this:

I agree completely that nothing is fail safe and that there is always the potential for the unexpected. Problems arise no matter how careful a company is. We don't like the pad location on our farm that the gas company wants to use because it's right outside my house and right above my neighbor's irrigation pond for his produce farm which is open to the public. In case of a big spill his pond (and potentially his crops) would be flooded with god knows what. Even at less than 1% concentration in the drilling and fracking fluids, there are thousands of gallons of acids, detergents, etc on site at various times. I will say I was impressed to learn that the whole pad site is one big revetment.


----------



## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Hydrocarbons have to have a layer of cap rock on top of them to have formed gas or oil depsits, if the don't , they migrate to the surface and evaporate or just loose a lot of the higher volitiles, like the oilsands.

if fracking occurs under this cap rock, it should not effect the ground water above it. if the ground water gets fracking chemicals into it it is probbably due to poor casing seals or unreported spills. 

In Alberta we are happy to see oil patch activity, because it means better roads when they are done, maybe if you are having road and other patch related problem you might want to look north for solutions.

Now coal bed methane and shallow gas , that looks to have a lot higher chance of water table contamination. , but I would be far more concerned about the non-fertilzing B S leaking from the socialist retards than the oil sector.


----------



## Bocephous (Oct 30, 2011)

thenance007 said:


> I would suggest watching the documentary "GasLand" before you assume that fracking is always harmless. Scared the h*** out of me, even assuming these incidents are the exception, not the norm. The people and entire communities affected by it in the movie certainly weren't expecting to have the water coming out of their faucets to be flammable. Not saying it happens often, but obviously it happens often enough that I would be very concerned if they started fracking near my land.


I suggest you watch "Fracknation" and a little video you can find on youtube called "Truthland." The latter was made by a local wife of a farmer who have multiple wells on their property.

There are gas wells all over the county I live in, and several within a couple miles of our home. With the exception of those people in Dimock (who have ongoing lawsuits against Cabot) referenced in the propoganda film "Gasland" I have heard of no water problems in my area.

The community of Dimock was not affected, just the 11 families that decided to sue Cabot. In my opinion a lot of the people fussin' are the ones that either:

A. Don't have enough property to make it worthwhile to lease and are covetous of their neighbors.

B. Politicians that are upset that they didn't see this coming and are having a hard time figuring out a way to siphon some of those funds into their own bank accounts. Personally, I'd rather see the farmers who have been busting their humps for 50 years get paid than our parasitic politicians.


----------



## Erick3758 (Aug 9, 2011)

I worked for Cabot.i have been down the road where the " affected wells" are. They are a cluster of very run down houses and trailers.after years of testing the dep made the ruling the water was not affected.i honestly believe they stuck together and tried to get a pay out from the company.i always got the feeling that Cabot was liked very much in that area.


----------



## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

Bocephous said:


> I suggest you watch "Fracknation" and a little video you can find on youtube called "Truthland." The latter was made by a local wife of a farmer who have multiple wells on their property.
> 
> There are gas wells all over the county I live in, and several within a couple miles of our home. With the exception of those people in Dimock (who have ongoing lawsuits against Cabot) referenced in the propoganda film "Gasland" I have heard of no water problems in my area.
> 
> ...


Thanks Bo.






I missed fracknation on the blaze. :brickwall::brickwall::brickwall:

Is anyone aware of it being aired again and when?


----------



## Bocephous (Oct 30, 2011)

Erick3758 said:


> I worked for Cabot.i have been down the road where the " affected wells" are. They are a cluster of very run down houses and trailers.after years of testing the dep made the ruling the water was not affected.i honestly believe they stuck together and tried to get a pay out from the company.i always got the feeling that Cabot was liked very much in that area.


You are correct in that the DEP found their water to be safe. I wasn't going to mention this in light of the fact that I put VERY little to no trust in gov't agencies, but just to further your thought, the EPA also found their water to be uncontaminated and safe. In "Fracknation" there is a scene that I found to be especially interesting:

Due to freedom of information, the filmmaker was able to watch, and included in his film, the filmed meeting between an EPA representative and one of the families suing Cabot. Upon hearing that their water was safe both homeowners threw a temper tantrum.

Earlier in the film the filmmaker asked the husband of this couple if he could have a sample of their water for independent testing. He (filmmaker) was offered one of the bottles he (homeowner) had stored in his garage. The filmmaker instead wanted to take a sample directly from their tap and after much throat clearing and excuses was denied that sample.

There is clearly some sort of cover-up taking place, and imo, it is not on the side of Cabot.


----------



## Erick3758 (Aug 9, 2011)

It was unfortunate when the allegations were made.the dep put a hold on all fracks near carter road.quite a few wells sat for a long time waiting to be fracked.i think if the complaints were legit the affected landowners would have understood.


----------



## Bocephous (Oct 30, 2011)

It is also unfortunate that Mr. Fox has, in a calculated and deceptive fashion, denied the farmers of Wayne County, Pennsylvania, the ability to sell the natural resources under the surface of their properties.


----------



## Erick3758 (Aug 9, 2011)

That's what landowners in New York State have been dealing with.i think the lawsuits will start soon.


----------



## Jason (Jul 25, 2009)

Is anyone familliar with the seismic testing they do when the gas companies move into a new area?


----------



## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

All too familiar they have seismic-ed this place SO many times. Last time they did a "3d" grid of the whole place, what a PITA! Tramp the field, slash the trees, cut the fences, guys wandering around your property all year, but it is all a one time thing:crossfinger: 

Pretty obvious that if I say anything bad about this on this forum I will get flamed so here goes, seismic ruined a beautiful spring fed lake on our land. This was decades ago when they used much more crude methods and didn't test wells or anything. More recently it caused a minor cave in, in a well but that well is still usable today and water quality is fine.
Standard practice here at least is to test the wells before and after the blasting, another PITA but worth it imo.
Otherwise not much to worry about.


----------



## Country Living (Dec 15, 2009)

Jason said:


> Is anyone familliar with the seismic testing they do when the gas companies move into a new area?


In the state of Texas (you'll have to figure out what's applicable in your state), the mineral rights owner (e.g. oil/gas company) has the right to seismic test on your land with or without your permission.

What we've run into in Texas (and this is where you need to research your state) is a third party for-profit seismic company is paying landowners $10/acre to run seismic tests on their property and they sell that data to the oil/gas companies. In Texas, since this third party provider is NOT the mineral rights owner they have no right to do seismic testing unless you agree.

We did not agree and told them so in three phone calls (they are a persistent bunch). One of them tried to bluff me and told me they had every right to run lines across our land. Thirty minutes later I was standing in front of him asking him to clarify his legal position. That put an end to it. Or so we thought. We came back from vacation to survey stakes across the pasture and through our woods. We sent a certified letter to the company with very blunt language about them trespassing on our property. The very next day there was a flurry of activity on the land around ours as they tried to figure out how to work their lines without going across our property.

Unfortunately, some of our neighbors also opted out and when the survey company went ahead and staked their land they relented. Then they regretted every giving permission. The seismic company left some of their lines out for months. One of the local ranchers finally told them they had 24 hours to get their lines up or they would be cut when he cut hay.

The third-party contact was crappy and all the benefits were on the side of the seismic company. I had a friend re-write it for insurance, bonding, timeline - the whole nine yards so if we were forced into letting them on our land they knew we would negotiate the terms of the contract.

You probably don't know there's a difference - you need to find out who is wanting to do the seismic testing, whether or not they legally represent the mineral rights holder (and verify), and what your state regs are in regard to this situation.

Clarify your question. My rant is officially over. For now.


----------



## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

They did 3-D siesmic on my place a few years ago, no problems.


----------

