# Fight or Flight or Freeze up (self defense considerations)



## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

I am going to post a link down below. Embedded in the web page is a video that will take a little while to watch but is well worth it (you can pause it by clicking on the video itself one, then clicking again to resume). The video is about self defense with references to law enforcement and those who carry concealed. Many of these training methods and beliefs have been in use with my agency for awhile but most police agencies are still stuck in the past. Most non-LEO concealed carry or handgun instructional classes are extremely oversimplified and generally ineffective when it comes to self-defense. This video does a good job of helping destroy many of the myths, commonly accepted misinformation and blatant keyboard commando crap that will not serve you well in a potentially lethal situation. I am not recommending the business that produced the video or asking you to buy any of their products, but their video IS excellent and does provide some very good information that you may need to hear. By the way I do have their video series (received it perhaps 16-17 months ago) and in comparison to many of the commercial available training programs (in person or video based) consider it to be one of the better ones I have every seen. Again, not trying to sell anything here and have NO affiliation with the company at all. Video takes 15-20 minutes or so and is worth every second you invest in it.

http://concealedcarryconfidence.org...ng-and-gear/?gclid=CMOxo_qGx8cCFdcXHwodPS8JMw


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## Balls004 (Feb 28, 2015)

Pretty good presentation, it's definitely something a lot more people need to hear.

Personally I like the instruction available from Suarez International. It is also science and reality based, and the training methods are not set in stone, instead they are updated as better techniques are developed and proven.

My wife and daughter now carry concealed, and they have benefited from seeing SI's force on force training and close quarter pistol fighting. Next year, we plan to attend a live course as a family. But at least now, they know about moving off the "X", shooting the bad guy to the ground, and many other important skills needed in a gunfight, including the warrior mentality.


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## Country Living (Dec 15, 2009)

Thanks, Sentry.

I Googled for coupons and wound up on this website that has the same Concealed Carry University seal as on the concealedcarryuniversity website. https://concealedcarryconfidence.org/

Scroll all the way down to almost the bottom of the page. The DVDs for the Concealed Carry are temporarily priced at $147 (down from $199). There's a statement the discount is for the Illinois Victory Celebration.

We just ordered Concealed Carry set and hope there will be a coupon for the Master Handgun Mastery DVDs.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Balls004 I have been through the Suarez International course myself (Combat Arms Instructor). Excellent school. I would have attended more courses but it's long way to AZ. A year or so later I had them make me a custom Glock 17 upper half.


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## Balls004 (Feb 28, 2015)

The biggest problem that any of us who wish to actually get better at armed combatives, whether it is a firearm, knife, hand or improvised weapon, is finding _QUALITY_ instruction, by people who actually know of what they are teaching.

It is important to remember that no matter what class you go to, it does not mean that you are prepared for whatever event might come your way. Excellent classes teach you not only the motor skills needed to win a violent encounter, but also what to do to survive one.

There is nothing cut and dried about any life or death situation. The less overwhelmed you are by the initial flood of information, and the more experience you have in tailoring your response to a violent incident makes it more likely that you will survive.

Excellent training costs money. Pure and simple. In the long run though, it is worth every penny. It's worth some research to find the best available to you.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

I've been to a couple concealed carry classes. The good one was very explicit that this was not a defensive handgun class. I've heard it stated, repeatedly, that a CC class was not training. I would say that it is more accurate to call a CC class legal training. I recommend that everyone that owns a gun take a defensive handgun (or rifle, or shotgun) course at least once a year.


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## Balls004 (Feb 28, 2015)

Caribou said:


> I've been to a couple concealed carry classes. The good one was very explicit that this was not a defensive handgun class. I've heard it stated, repeatedly, that a CC class was not training. I would say that it is more accurate to call a CC class legal training. I recommend that everyone that owns a gun take a defensive handgun (or rifle, or shotgun) course at least once a year.


Amen Brother!


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Agreed. Concealed carry classes and basic firearms instruction classes are meant for people with little to zero knowledge/experience looking to understand the most basic of gun safety, operation and applicable laws. A basic hunter safety class does not quality or prepare someone to go lion hunting with their dentist in Africa. It's just a jumping off point. 

When it comes to "combat" level instruction for every good combat instructor out there, you find a half dozen Dyanmic D-Bags. Many of whom will receive glowing reviews from students who simply succumb to their tacticoolness and operator like operations. Or competition shooters who believe combat and competition are essentially the same thing. But even if you do find a good instructor, the instruction is only part of the learning curve. You need regular real-world practice and you must refresh those skills often. You need to set benchmarks and demonstrate improvement. You need to understand the legal complexities of your jurisdiction. You need to have good equipment and know it intimately. You need more training from different qualified instructors with different points of view with different challenges and methodologies. Then you are right back to needing regular real-world practice. The process is cyclical and the skills are perishable. However I would recommend self-learning and lots of practice over going to a tactical-timmy class.

When I attended my first law enforcement firearms training in 1990-ish all we did was line up and shoot for static accuracy. It was very rigid and controlled but in no way prepared any of us for an armed encounter. Now we not only run through many hours of training and simulation each year, our instructors take out officers one on one for a "combat refresher" every 6 months. 6-8 hours of intensive live fire shooting and scenario based skills testing. I would need another 2 paragraphs to cover everything that is jammed into that time frame. The change from 1989 to 2015 is almost unimaginable. Yet many law enforcement agencies (even local ones to me) are still living in 1990.


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## Balls004 (Feb 28, 2015)

There would probably be more money in many LE agencies budget if the brass were actively patrolling, and local politicians were required to be POST certified and patrol periodically as reserves...

Institutional inertia is often to blame too, though. Far too many LE leaders, as well as officers, feel that training is a burden or that advanced concept combat training is only needed by SWAT or other tactical teams. 

I know far too many local LEO's who have paid their own money for the really good classes. They tend to look at it the same way I do, they want to stack the odds in their favor as much as possible, so they get to come home everyday.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

That's how I started. Paid for 3-4 courses before I made firearms instructor then a couple more before I made SWAT. Now that I am a desk jockey (with a particular set of skills) I have implemented many of those training regiments into our program. Even hired John Farnam and Wes Doss (separately) some years ago to come in and do special train-the-trainer courses with just our firearms instructors. The program has improved greatly because of it. 

By the by we do a fun shoot where we take politicians and VIP's out to shoot some guns, under the watchful protection of numerous range officers. Makes them all warm and fuzzy and more willing to approve firearms and training related requests. Some of them even do ride-a-longs, but they have to stay out of the action.


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## Gians (Nov 8, 2012)

Looked up the entire video that was used in the presentation, horrific end to such a young life. Apparently the guy(Andrew Howard Brannan 49) pulled over for speeding, had combat training and experience in Vietnam, he came at the officer(Deputy Kyle Dinkheller 22) with a M-1 Carbine. Seems mistakes were made early on in the pull over, apparently many of them since LE around the country uses it for training. They carried out the death sentence on Brannan in January of this year, 17 years after the murder. Other things I've read(use internet grain of salt here) was that the Deputy had just 2 yrs experience patrolling and that he had recently been reprimanded for being too quick to draw his weapon...it did seem he was reluctant to pull it. If true it cost him his life, makes you think about some of what's happening right now.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

Watched the Video up to the sales pitch for the DVDs

Unfortunately the Officer remind me of some parents who continues to yell at their child numerous times, "If you do that then I'm going to do this." Child does that and the parent does zilch.

The vid up to the sales pitch makes it clear that the Officer froze and freezing is not a good idea during a encounter.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

Son is getting us interested in 3-gun competition. Would this help eliminating freezing during and encounter?


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

TheLazyL said:


> Son is getting us interested in 3-gun competition. Would this help eliminating freezing during and encounter?


It certainly could. You will practice moving and shooting, multiple targets, and quick reloads. All this will be of benefit if you ever are forced to defend yourself. You might also look into IDPA and USPSA competition.


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## Balls004 (Feb 28, 2015)

Any of the competitive shooting sports will help with learning weapons manipulation and improve your overall confidence with a firearm, as well as introducing stress while doing so. Some like IDPA, which are scenario based, help with problem solving that a gunfight might require. None of them will entirely prepare you for armed CQB with knives, pistols, clubs, etc.

Even the military, which has a long record of training people for combat, has not been entirely effective in eliminating the freeze up or flight responses from soldiers, sailors, marines, or airmen. Part of it is the individual's own personality and experience as to which response they exhibit during their initial exposure to combat. It is impossible to predict accurately beforehand, but in the military, you are seldom all by yourself when a threat appears, so it's not nearly as deadly as if you are facing a threat alone or with your unarmed loved ones, who you have to protect.

If you are unused to violence, you are more likely to freeze up or attempt to flee, than if you have trained in Force on Force or other CQB combatives. There is no magic pill here, to be effective, you have to invest time and money into practicing something that you might never need, but if you need it, your life or those that you love most lives may depend on that skill.

Yeah, LazyL, shoot 3 gun, it sure won't hurt, and it's a heck of a lot of fun to boot!


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## Country Living (Dec 15, 2009)

TheLazyL said:


> <snip>remind me of some parents who continues to yell at their child numerous times, "If you do that then I'm going to do this." Child does that and the parent does zilch.


My favorite is when the parent tells the child "if I see you do that again...." which means, IMHO, it's OK to do it as long as the parent doesn't see you.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Competitive shooting sports are beneficial in many ways but they are detrimental in many ways too. For example many require a specific number of rounds be fired per station, which creates a muscle memory of shooting say 3 rounds each and every time and then moving to engage the next target. In real life you need to shoot until your primary target is no longer a threat. May take more than three rounds, may only take one. It is essential that one's defensive training regiment is not routine or repetitive. Competition shooting and training for competition shooting is almost always routine and repetitive. The same way Skeet shooting is very different from hunting waterfowl. I have a couple master-class and A class shooters in my department. They are insanely fast and insanely accurate. But when we do combat training, which includes being shot at by a .40 paintball gun, they do not tend to reach the same levels of performance. They also tend to forget about other defensive options.


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## Balls004 (Feb 28, 2015)

I think what Sentry is pointing out is that in competition, you know what is going to happen _beforehand_ and can plan your movements, fire, reloads, etc. prior to actually doing it.

Real life encounters do not allow that luxury, even if you have exceptional situational awareness and have a plan in place before a violent encounter begins. Once started, it becomes dynamic, and therefore unpredictable in what can occur. That is where competitive shooting may become a liability.

My wife and daughter are trained to shoot an attacker(s) to the ground until they are no longer a threat to them. _No threat to them_. In other words, they are completely incapacitated, whether it takes one magazine or more, then retreat to safety. I might have trouble explaining why I felt it necessary to empty a full mag into a bad guy, but there aren't many juries that would question a woman doing so when their life is in danger.

I think it's important to remember that competition does not replace good training, but definitely can improve your weapons skills.


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## kinda (Sep 8, 2015)

video is like an Ayn Rand book. Takes 10x as long to say what needs to be said, as it should take and it shows you nothing.


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