# Question about economic collapse..



## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

Something that just came up in my mind, that I have NEVER given thought to and wondered how many other people are in our situation.

We're renters. We do not own, the opportunity has not been there for us. We rent a house on nine acres. Wait before you think, "that's crazy, if you can afford the house on nine acres, you could afford to own", no not true. The house is a small older unimproved ranch home built in 1960, we only use 1 acre of the full property, although we could go anywhere on the property. The house is truthfully, dirt cheap for this market, it is $880 a month. In this area, no house goes for under $1400 a month to rent.

As well, houses average about $150,000.00, and it has just not been in the "stars" for us yet. 

So, I have to assume there are plenty more like us out there, renters, paying month to month, are we really in a terribly precarious situation? I do know in ours, the owner owns this property outright, he bought it to have it all developed with adjoining land, but the city pulled the plug on more development (the property is outside city limits, rural, but they are keeping it as low density/farmland) before it could be done. So renting this out is probably a way to pocket something in order to pay at least taxes on it, if he even does (I think there is a possibility that he gets to write the property off since he got it for that reason and now it is at a loss for him..).

If SHTF and the economic collapse is the thing that happens next in this nation, and this guy loses all his monetary assets and his other businesses..what kind of scenario could we expect? Would he continue to rent to us? If my husbands job did not fall under the collapse axe, and we still had income and could pay, does anyone think this guy would want more for this since he could be hurting?

I don't want to be worrying too much, and can hope for the best, we have a lot of time and some of our own $$$ invested in making our preps work here (big gardens, tools for that, chickens with their outbuildings...).Sage advice here would be appreciated. Thanks


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

Think about it and plan for it the best you can, but don't worry too much about it. It's one of those things you can't change. If you're going to stay where you are and renting is your only option, then let go of the worry. Make a list (on paper or in your mind) of things you have or could do for rent exchange if it comes to that. If TSHTF badly enough and your landlord loses his money and assets, probably your husband will lose his job too. No one will have money. It'll be a world we don't have experience in, so our thoughts on the subject are theories based on analysis and creating a potential solution. It's important that we spend time doing that, but worrying won't change the outcome. 

Even us landowners will face problems. How will we pay our property taxes if there's a collapse? We might be living in the cardboard box next to you under a bridge somewhere, Hoppe!  Hang in there. Most of the solutions will be created as we go after a collapse. Stay on good terms with your landloard. That's the best advice I can give you. He might like the security in numbers and having people he knows near him (if he lives near you).


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks gypsy, I am 100% sure he does not live nearby, he owns massive amounts of land out here and most are occupied by his nurseries, but he does not live out here in the farmland (neighbors know him and know he lives further up the mountain too).

I would suppose we're on good terms with him, he has a husband wife team who have a property management do the work for him with us, so we have never met him. I would assume he would be ok with us as we have been working on improving the yard since we moved in, it was filled with piles of rotten pallets, junk and such and overgrown bushes and weeds in the front. 

I can just hope for the best and simply take it day by day if something comes up. I would hope that he would simply let us stay till things became better...but then again, if he owns it outright and no one could pay their property taxes, and gov had nothing to run on, who would be able or in a position to pay someone to boot you, or me out of our dwellings anyways?


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

Here I go again.  

While you're cleaning the overgrown bushes and weeds, turn your yard into as much garden as feasible and add a few fruit trees as well. Now throw in a half a dozen chickens and you're in a position to help others; like your landlord who, theoretically, has lost everything. In the event of an economic collapse, having a variety of produce to offer as rent could go a long way in helping you stay in your home.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

If economic conditions suddenly deteriorate the best thing to do is stall for time. When things get bad the police won't have time to evict people.

It's too bad the economy is so bad right now. In Oshkosh, Wisconsin you can get some nice house for $100,000. Like this one:

1182 W 18th Ave Oshkosh WI - Home For Sale and Real Estate Listing - MLS #50032273 - Realtor.com®


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

HoppeEL4 said:


> Something that just came up in my mind, that I have NEVER given thought to and wondered how many other people are in our situation.
> 
> We're renters. We do not own, the opportunity has not been there for us. We rent a house on nine acres. Wait before you think, "that's crazy, if you can afford the house on nine acres, you could afford to own", no not true. The house is a small older unimproved ranch home built in 1960, we only use 1 acre of the full property, although we could go anywhere on the property. The house is truthfully, dirt cheap for this market, it is $880 a month. In this area, no house goes for under $1400 a month to rent.
> 
> ...


 houses aren't selling, even cheap houses unless there are jobs nearby, most smart landlords and banks are leaving their tenents in the house so bums,theives ect don't ruin the place. It would be nice if you could talk him into a 5 yr lease to cover the taxes , if he's reasonable and knows what's going on in the world, he may go for it, if he's greedy and thinks the election is going to turn things around, then he's out of touch.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

Just FYI,
If you were actually intersted in owning a home and if you qualified you could get probably get a 30-year $150,000 loan at 5% interest and your payments (minus the little addons) would be approx 800$ a month. 

Maybe its just not something you are interested in but interest rates are not likely to stay this low. If you love where you are at and dont see yourself moving away from that location then purchasing a home could be a smart idea. 

Just thought I would throw that out there for whatever its worth to ya.

As a comparison, if interest rates go up to 10% (which isnt all that far fetched) the payments on that same loan would be over $1300 a month. If you like where you are at and like the idea of home ownership now might be the time to act. At todays interest rates you could pay off the loan in less than 15 years at $1300/mo.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

I can see why you are concerned. Its just difficult to foresee how all this will play out. 

In the '29 crash, money was scarce but it still had value. I'm not looking for that to happen this time. Everything points towards inflating the money, and devaluing the dollar. We already are seeing it in the cost of many necessary items, like food and fuel. If that happens, then costs will go up, including the cost of housing. 

Rents in my area have increased, possibly due to people not qualifying for home loans. So, landlords have edged up rents due to demand for rental properties.

If you and your husband are good renters and have been there for a while, I would imagine the owner will want to maintain that dependable flow of monthly income, at least for the foreseeable future. I wouldn't worry too much over it.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

There's been a lot of rentals added to the market around here, by people about to lose their homes. They move out and rent their homes so they'll have money to make the payments and stay out of foreclosure. When they get back on their feet financially (some probably never will, but we know a few who have been lucky), they give notice to their renters that they'll have to move out in "X" number of days/months, and they move back into their homes. Some have stayed with relatives or in campers during that time, and some rented cheap apartments. 

Back to the subject. Hoppe, you should go in to some of the realtor's offices and just chat with them. A lot of times they don't list the low-cost properties, or the ones with owner financing. They're hoping for the bigger commissions on the pricey properties, and they have to pay their own advertising costs, so they don't tout the cheap stuff. But in person you might find out about all kinds of good deals. We did this with one of our daughters, and I was amazed how many cheap properties they had, and some even offered owner-financing or low/no down. 

That is, if you think you might want to pursue owning property.


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## Nadja (Jan 12, 2011)

gypsysue said:


> Think about it and plan for it the best you can, but don't worry too much about it. It's one of those things you can't change. If you're going to stay where you are and renting is your only option, then let go of the worry. Make a list (on paper or in your mind) of things you have or could do for rent exchange if it comes to that. If TSHTF badly enough and your landlord loses his money and assets, probably your husband will lose his job too. No one will have money. It'll be a world we don't have experience in, so our thoughts on the subject are theories based on analysis and creating a potential solution. It's important that we spend time doing that, but worrying won't change the outcome.
> 
> Even us landowners will face problems. How will we pay our property taxes if there's a collapse? We might be living in the cardboard box next to you under a bridge somewhere, Hoppe!  Hang in there. Most of the solutions will be created as we go after a collapse. Stay on good terms with your landloard. That's the best advice I can give you. He might like the security in numbers and having people he knows near him (if he lives near you).


First of all, property taxes ? Do you think that somebody would be working in the county or city offices to send out notice's that your taxes are due IF the economy were to colapse ? Not likely. No money, no jobs, no govt. In that event, you would be totally on your own. Now all that you would need to do, is keep control of it from looters, and not just food looters, but people looking for a place to live and farm.


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## AlabamaGal (Dec 27, 2011)

Two things:

One, you are playing a guessing game with not enough information and too many possible scenarios. "What if..." is a useful tool to prepare for alternatives, but don't let it keep you up at night.

Two, if houses in your area average $150k, then there are lots below that, and something very like the home you are in is probably one of them. Unless there is some other financial issues at play here, like no verifiable income or bad credit, if you can afford $880/month you can afford to buy in that kind of market. As low as interest rates aren't, this is a good time to get a mortgage. If you are interested in owning (and not everyone is), a local real estate agent or a loan officer at your friendly local credit union can help you crunch the numbers. If you want to figure it yourself, here's the bits that go into you monthly payment:

- P&I, or principal and interest. Calculators on the 'net abound.
- PMI, or private mortgage insurance. If you don't have 20% down, you will probably need to buy it. Divide by 12.
- Homeowners insurance. Rates vary widely. Your current insurance agent can give you a ballpark annual premium range. Divide by 12.
- Property taxes. Again, rates vary widely. Many jurisdictions have property assessment info online and you can look for similarly priced and zoned properties. Unless the method is calculation is very straightforward where you are, don't count on figuring it out accurately on your own.

The owner of the house you are in may be willing to sell to you. You can't write off a bad investment unless you take a capital loss, and that means you have to _sell_ it at a loss. Better he sell it to you.  He also may be willing to sell just a portion of the land, like the house and single acre you are using now. It can't hurt to ask, if that has interest for you.


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

*Damn I hate it when Ant starts making sense to the point I have to agree with him..... 
But he is right..about buying something of your own..if you can swing it... here's why.. while your renting and cleaning up the junk yard that was there...and you make the place look better the owner could say ..WOW this place should rent for more and there you are... 
It can and does happen all the time.. if things get bad and you can't pay your rent for a while..poof your out the door... if you own..and something happens..it takes a good while before they can do the whole foreclosure thing.. so your better off buying then renting...
And yes go see a realtor..they are damn near unemployed right now and a good one will bust a$$ to get you a loan.. nothing to lose and a lot to gain.. maybe the place your renting can be bought.. heck the owner might sell on a contract for deed.. ask.. nada to lose.. *


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## Ponce (May 3, 2009)

Hoppe? maybe he will want the property WTSHTF for himself?.....specially if he lives in the city.


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

We had thought about this one. We are on our last kid, the size is right (it was originally a two bedroom one level ranch, small but makes upkeep easy), but our neighbors who know this guy, the owner, feel positive that he will be unwilling to sell it. They are in their ealy 80's, own 10 acres next door, and had to fight him in county court to fend off him getting eminent domain for their property...strangely, they are on friendly terms with him...but said he was in no way letting go of any of these properties out here, my guess is he is waiting for them to pass away, or have to be in a home (I don't think this will happen, mr. neighbor is out cutting his own wood) and scoop up their property through the estate sale.

As well, it has been about three years since they fought him, and there was a moratorium (or something like that) on any talk within the city council of changing the zoning for ten years from that point, it is now about 7 years away, and my guess is he is chomping at the bit to go back for it. The neighbors on the other side are in their later 60's early 70's and he is fighting lung cancer, we think from his explanation, mesothelioma (he worked on cars for decades). If he loses that battle, I have the feeling his wife would sell, I think they are really struggling, and then our landlord would likely swoop in. 

So, knowing what I know about how he has dealt with things around here, I'd rather not deal with him, or buy it and find out huge development will be knocking at my backdoor (it's all these three story row homes full of snotty out of staters), and then have the city decide I could not have livestock in any way. Also, on a well right now, and I predict that if he gets his way, we would have to pay to get on city water, and city sewer (septic right now). That cost could be more than what we could afford.

Too many what-ifs in taking this on. I am open to a USDA loan, because the payments would be half of what they normally would be. I confess though, I do not know what our credit looks like, we filed chapter 11, fifteen years ago, and have not touched credit since, living on cash only. So I feel it is not up to par, and that chapter 11 sort of scared us, made us feel akward about asking for credit again. So, not sure where we stand and how we really feel about it right now. Renting has been an ok alternative for us, but I agree with you all in owning, it takes a whole heck of a lot more to get you out of your own place than someone elses.


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## Immolatus (Feb 20, 2011)

HozayBuck said:


> *Damn I hate it when Ant starts making sense to the point I have to agree with him..... *
> *But he is right*


 Took the words outta my mind! I agree. I hate to think that ever is 'time to buy', realtors are shysters and every time is a 'good time to' do whichever you are doing, buying or selling. In theory, in a collapse that land will be worth squat if noone has any money. THAT WILL APPLY EVERYWHERE. If you can swing it, try to buy it. If not there, then somewhere else.



HoppeEL4 said:


> Too many what-ifs in taking this on. I am open to a USDA loan, because the payments would be half of what they normally would be. I confess though, I do not know what our credit looks like, we filed chapter 11, fifteen years ago, and have not touched credit since, living on cash only. So I feel it is not up to par, and that chapter 11 sort of scared us, made us feel akward about asking for credit again. So, not sure where we stand and how we really feel about it right now. Renting has been an ok alternative for us, but I agree with you all in owning, it takes a whole heck of a lot more to get you out of your own place than someone elses.


If you can get some kind of cheap loan from the gubt, take it.
Check your credit score, you can get them for free, I dont think after 15 years it would matter, its the not having credit that may hurt you more.
If this guy wont deal, there are plenty of other (fish in the sea) places around.

To address what Ponce says, I would also make sure that this guy wont come a knockin and NEED to live in your place should shtf. My proposed BOL is in the same situation, but the landlord is in no situation to try to live on his own down by the river. He wont be comin there, Im pretty darned sure. And if its a total collapse, then if you are already there, well, how exactly would he get you out?


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

I can agree on a lot. There can be plenty of places cheap, and it is sometimes knowing someone who has it or is in the know of it. This is the town I grew up in so there is one advantage. 

I'd be plenty ok to stay here and buy if I did not have those concerns over development eventually being at our back doorstep. I know if I am going to buy, I want it where there is not really the threat of dense housing coming in, I just moved away from that, it was a bad situation and the bitterness of how bad is still in my mouth. As well I would feel better being out from large populations when/should SHTF. I know my way around out here, it is rugged and I know if I had to escape with my family, I could find plenty of spots to be in where I felt we were safer, being further in town, or living among tract townhomes filled with government dependent non-locals (for some reason they love moving to these kinds of places "in the country"), I would feel less safe.

Anywho, as for planting stuff, we have two apple and two pear trees coming this week, and am getting some blueberry and Honeyberry bushes. We have raspberry, but honestly the dang things are being sort of fickle, maybe this summer they will come up better. We also have grape someone planted here years ago, we cut it back, it was on a falling down arbor. We have cut our chickens area down, and the areas where they were are getting tilled to be fertile planting grounds. Just down the gorge from us is a river thats full of fish in spring and fall. We had two deer just near the old barn the other night, grazing, so..you know, things get bad, they come up to graze, and...you know.


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## AlabamaGal (Dec 27, 2011)

HoppeEL4 said:


> I do not know what our credit looks like, we filed chapter 11, fifteen years ago, and have not touched credit since, living on cash only.


The bankruptcy should be off your file now, but NO credit is just as bad as bad credit. Almost worse -- someone with a BK but others good recent history can certainly still buy a house since it's a secured loan.

If you are thinking about it at all, get a credit card and use it once a month for a tank of gas or something, then pay it off. This will trigger your bank to report frequently that you pay your account.


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## texican (Feb 15, 2010)

Ponce said:


> Hoppe? maybe he will want the property WTSHTF for himself?.....specially if he lives in the city.


I think possession would be everything (old saying 9/10ths of the law).... especially if one had the means to hold onto it.

One of the problems with distant BOL's is that all the locals 'know' it's there... and if things 'head south', daresay some local will have appropriated it quickly... and unless one had the means of extricating them (and what good would a BOL compound be, if someone could force them out).

If I couldn't own outright, I'd make sure I had everything I need stockpiled, just in case.... and the means to protect it. Landlords? Taxmen? Bankers? If you have to worry about 'them', the situation isn't really that bad... when it gets really rotten, those financial worries should not be real worries anymore.


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## SurvivalNut (Nov 13, 2008)

As a landlord, I have thought about this. In a collapse or downturn, for as long a I am ahead of the tax man, any payment or barter will be accepted as a month to month negotiable rent. Better any rent than an empty home open to thieves or vandals. 

I am sure there will be a lot of similar opportunites out there. I'd welcome any preppers to sit on a property for me in SHTF. 

Just don't do a Selco and tear up the floors and doors for firewood.


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## stayingthegame (Mar 22, 2011)

I have a rental on the market now. I would love to have a prepper for a renter. would be willing to trade for part of the rent if he raised a garden. or small animals.


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## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

HoppeEL4 said:


> I do not know what our credit looks like, we filed chapter 11, fifteen years ago, and have not touched credit since, living on cash only.


From experience, AlabamaGal is correct, no credit is very damaging. In my younger days I worked for a living (as compared to a cube farm job now) and paid cash. Bought a truck, lots of equipment, tools, everything but a house and land. I went to the bank for a loan and it was very, very hard and expensive to get anyone to touch me. Once I established a payment history (which is what they need to see) I was pretty good but only having one payment also brought my credit score down. Speaking of that what a racket that system is, eh? They can sell incorrect information about you and YOU have to monitor it and fight with them to correct it.

I have not had any revolving payments for years, since the early 90's I think. It was difficult to get a mortgage 6 years ago. Well, a mortgage that didn't include interest only payments for 5 years or a mortgage for a home I knew I could never really afford. No one wanted to touch me for an affordable home. I now have a good record of mortgage and car payments but my score is still low due to not enough credit used! It was recommended I get a few credit cards and use them for all the things I now pay cash for and pay the bills off each month. Sick system they have. I refuse to get a credit card because of the fees involved; they are not free for folks like us. It would cost me several hundred dollars just to establish a credit history. I have thought of getting a secured card, giving the bank a sum of money equal to the credit line they give me. But I try not to have any large amount of cash in the bank ($500, $1,000), due to what is happening around us today. So, we cash folks are screwed in the traditional system of buy the $150 sneakers now and pay later.


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## Gorseinonboy (Feb 16, 2010)

If a collapse were to come in any economy then it depends on the severity of that crash as to the seriousness of the consequences. Take Greece - there are some real problems there largely unknown by those of you in the USA etc. Social order is still holding there in spite of economic difficulties. rising unemployment and strike action.

But whether Greece tipples into something else depends. Isn't that the same for all countries currently going through difficulties.


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## goshengirl (Dec 18, 2010)

Hoppe, if you have no credit, there might be something for you if you hunt down Dave Ramsey resources. He's real big on living a no credit life (getting debt free and paying with cash only) - I think he may have lists of lenders who work with people who have no credit as a way of life...


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

Goshengirl, I'll have to look into that. Thanks.

Survivalnut and Stayingingthegame, thanks for the insight. I think this could be something useful later. There are a lot of variables in our life, some might see them as obstacles and the ones who are fully immersed in the typical sheeple existance see it as excuses. We're on our last kid, she is going on 15, then it will be the two of us. However, I think if SHTF, we would be the ones holding them all together and who they would gather up to, so having something reasonable in size to accomodate that is needed. I would hold on here should things go south real soon, it would be most practical.

I go back and forth on this. Sometimes feeling self concious that we are still renters, but then part of me would be glad to be able to walk away and not feel torn about the amount of investment we would be losing, and having our cash in hand (in the form of silver) instead. It swings like a pendulum with me about this subject. 

Woody, this system angers me most of the time. I believe in the Biblical principle of not being a borrower or a lender. This system we live in is enslaving us, making us subject to something God never intended for us all. How can a man (or woman) be truly free the way He intended if we are in owing so many? We are just them working for them in trade for our lives basically. So it is hard for me to think of being there again like we were once. It did not even feel good, and lead to some awful consequences for us in the end. Then if you owe to much these days and are out of work, it can jeopardize being hired...now that is sick. Employers think one of a few things. you might steal to get by, or you owe because you could not be trusted in the first place. Yet some might not hire because you filed bankruptsy, some might not because you have nothing proved in credit...damned if you do, damned if you don't.


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