# Silver prices starting to explode



## BillS

On April 15th silver was about $16.25. Over the next month it briefly reached $18.00. Then it dropped back down to the $16 range by June 1st. After that it reached $17 and bounced around that price. Then last week it started to take off. When I got up Thursday morning I saw that it had crossed $18 during the night. By Friday morning it crossed $19. It closed Friday afternoon at $19.75. I think it would have hit $20 if not for the afternoon close. It's been over 5 years since silver went up by a dollar or more on consecutive days.

There's a lot of evidence that the prices of gold and silver are being suppressed by the Federal Reserve and the big banks to prop up the dollar. Either that's not working now or they've stopped trying. I think we're going to see metals prices explode from here. 

Around April 15th I made a big purchase. I have about 90% of my savings in metals with 90% of my metals in silver.


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## Sentry18

Good news. I have been buying silver for some time.


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## tsrwivey

BillS said:


> Around April 15th I made a big purchase. I have about 90% of my savings in metals with 90% of my metals in silver.


Wow! That's a lot of eggs in one basket!


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## Tweto

On the US National Debt Clock list the value of Gold at $7,600 and Silver at $844. These numbers are suppose to represent the PM's value unencumbered by outside interference.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/#

If this is true that Gold and Silver are the best investments for the future that any one could imagine.


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## Woody

*In my opinion:* I also firmly believe the price of PM's is being artificially manipulated to keep the dollar as the reserve currency. Not only the US economy but large banks, other countries and the major players in finance have a vested interest in keeping it so. Someone mentioned in another thread (I think it was the Brexit one) the historical 1:16 ratio of Gold to silver. I also have heard similar values as Tweto mentions above, silver should be over $800.

With the US going off the gold standard and the fiat printing presses working triple shifts, as well as 'digital money' (PM's included), the dollar should in reality be just about worthless. I follow silver more than gold. The double eagles I have were bought long ago as collector coins. I knew even in my youth that even though I paid well over PM value, they would never be totally worthless.

I tend not to think in terms of an actual investment that should grow. PM's are similar to a home for me. I live in it and when I go to sell take all my mortgage payments, insurance, repairs, original cost... and average them together. The difference is what it cost me to 'rent' a place to live. I always smile when folks say they sold a home and made $50k! Well.. If you take all you have into it, you always lose 'money' but had a place to live and came out with something, it was not totally worthless in the long run. The only contradiction to this would be folks who flip houses not homes.

There I go rambling and getting slightly off topic! Poke me next time.


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## tsrwivey

Tweto said:


> On the US National Debt Clock list the value of Gold at $7,600 and Silver at $844. These numbers are suppose to represent the PM's value unencumbered by outside interference.
> 
> http://www.usdebtclock.org/#
> 
> If this is true that Gold and Silver are the best investments for the future that any one could imagine.


I wish I could trust my government but unfortunately that's not the case.


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## BillS

I see silver as a way to protect myself when the dollar loses value. Jim Willie claims that the Chinese want the dollar devalued by 70% but that the US will enact two 35% devaluations. Rob Kirby said that a dollar devaluation is imminent. Jim Willie said it will happen this year. 

Let's say the dollar was just devalued by 20%. That means that the prices of everything just went up 25% but not your wages. If life in the US is on its way to becoming life in Venezuela in the next one to five years can you survive? Let's say you bought $5,000 or $10,000 worth of silver today. If the dollar is devalued your silver went up by the same amount. Not only that, when things get bad enough there will be panic buying of precious metals. And when large price increases start coming everyday, coin dealers will stop selling until the prices plateau.

I work part time for an animal shelter. As soon as the economy gets bad enough donations will dry up and I'll be out of a job. Even 20 hours a week at minimum wage is $7500 a year. That income would be difficult to replace. My wife works in a union factory. Her wages are locked in by contract. I don't see the company paying its workers more because the dollar was devalued. I expect to see food prices skyrocket and a lot of people struggling to buy food and pay their bills. I don't know when that will start but this fall looks like 2008 all over again. 

I think eventually you'll used cars for sale on Craigslist where the people don't want dollars. They'll want silver or gold coins instead.

I think this week is a pivotal week. If silver prices are smashed then the process can go on much longer. But if silver is at $25 or more by next Friday that means time is a lot shorter. If we see silver hit $100 by the end of the year that doesn't mean it's time to sell. It means the sky is the limit.

I think we could have $100 silver and an economy much like today. But chances are we wouldn't want to live in a world of $1,000 silver because of what that would mean for the dollar and the economy.


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## Tacitus

BillS said:


> I see silver as a way to protect myself when the dollar loses value.


Yes. 100%. That is why I buy precious metals.

If the US is to get exports going again, then there must be devaluation relative to China.

If the national debt is to be paid, then there must be inflation.



BillS said:


> If life in the US is on its way to becoming life in Venezuela in the next one to five years can you survive? Let's say you bought $5,000 or $10,000 worth of silver today. If the dollar is devalued your silver went up by the same amount. Not only that, when things get bad enough there will be panic buying of precious metals. And when large price increases start coming everyday, coin dealers will stop selling until the prices plateau.


Two things: rapid price increases of PMs and/or hyperinflation.

If just the former, then metals owners will sell, metals buyers will buy, and coin dealers will sell and buy and sell and buy as fast as they possibly can (because coin dealers make money on the transaction premiums, not the metal values). Rapid increases in metals prices will likely happen before hyperinflation, but hyperinflation will not necessarily follow the increases. If the currency remains _relatively_ stable (not hyperinflationary), coin dealers will sell.

If there is hyperinflation, then moving PMs out, and taking in cash, would be detrimental. At that point, the coin dealer will stop selling for profit, and start trading for goods.



BillS said:


> I think eventually you'll used cars for sale on Craigslist where the people don't want dollars. They'll want silver or gold coins instead.


I think this will happen only after the currency fails, and hyperinflation starts. As long as the currency is mostly stable, people will still transfer value at least temporarily into cash. They may walk the cash over to the coin dealer sooner rather than later, but they will still accept cash. Cash is the universal value translator, as long as it is not unstable.



BillS said:


> I think this week is a pivotal week. If silver prices are smashed then the process can go on much longer. But if silver is at $25 or more by next Friday that means time is a lot shorter. If we see silver hit $100 by the end of the year that doesn't mean it's time to sell. It means the sky is the limit.
> 
> I think we could have $100 silver and an economy much like today. But chances are we wouldn't want to live in a world of $1,000 silver because of what that would mean for the dollar and the economy.


Agreed. This is an important week. I tend to think it will level off...but I'm worried it will keep rising. I hate buying now, after a big rise, but I will likely make a minor purchase on Tuesday, and just write off my losses as risk management if it drops back down...and then buy a lot more if it drops back down. If it goes to $25 by Friday, I may have to abandon all my metal buying, and return to normal preps.


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## DKRinAK

"Around April 15th I made a big purchase. I have about 90% of my savings in metals with 90% of my metals in silver".

I also believe the price of PMs will rise but I have taken a different lesson from Argentina that most here seem to believe.

That lesson?










The line of people isn;t in front of a bank. The line is in front of a food store, where even basic foodstuffs are becoming impossible to obtain - _at any price._

I can't eat gold or silver. I moved some of my savings into red winter wheat, rice, dry non-fat milk, sugar, honey, salt, etc - and the stored energy to cook with. Just a thought, bread may not always be $3/loaf....it may be impossible to buy.


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## DrPrepper

DKRinAK said:


> "Around April 15th I made a big purchase. I have about 90% of my savings in metals with 90% of my metals in silver".
> 
> I also believe the price of PMs will rise but I have taken a different lesson from Argentina that most here seem to believe.
> 
> That lesson?
> 
> The line of people isn;t in front of a bank. The line is in front of a food store, where even basic foodstuffs are becoming impossible to obtain - _at any price._
> 
> I can't eat gold or silver. I moved some of my savings into red winter wheat, rice, dry non-fat milk, sugar, honey, salt, etc - and the stored energy to cook with. Just a thought, bread may not always be $3/loaf....it may be impossible to buy.


DKR, I tend to agree with you. It doesn't matter how much silver or gold you have if there is nothing to buy. Knowing there are food and supplies in the pantry is more comforting to me than having stacks of coins. Not that there is not value in precious metals- I have a goodly stack of both brass and lead! :2thumb:


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## Tweto

Collecting PM's is only done after water, food, lodging, and security have been cared for. I could make an assumption that the majority of the Gold and Silver stackers are already comfortable with their core preppings.

This is the natural progression for PM holders.


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## hiwall

PM's are an easy prep (if you have the money). they are simple to buy and take up very little storage space that does not require climate control.
Food and water take way less money but a large amount of storage space that often has to be at least somewhat climate controlled.


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## Tacitus

DKRinAK said:


> The line of people isn;t in front of a bank. The line is in front of a food store, where even basic foodstuffs are becoming impossible to obtain - _at any price._
> 
> I can't eat gold or silver. I moved some of my savings into red winter wheat, rice, dry non-fat milk, sugar, honey, salt, etc - and the stored energy to cook with. Just a thought, bread may not always be $3/loaf....it may be impossible to buy.


If those people had gold or silver, they might not be standing in that line.

But, your point is well taken.



Tweto said:


> Collecting PM's is only done after water, food, lodging, and security have been cared for. I could make an assumption that the majority of the Gold and Silver stackers are already comfortable with their core preppings.
> 
> This is the natural progression for PM holders.


True. I started with food and water and everything else. It is only after I built up a multi-month supply of other things that I began looking at metals.

And, after I achieve my metals goals, I will return to food and water and medicines.

Also, it all depends on what you are prepping for. Some prep for EMP. Some prep for a bank holiday. Some prep for a layoff. Different circumstances and goals warrant different kinds of preps for different people. In certain types of economic disasters, there will be a period of time in which metals will have tremendous value. I don't so much "buy silver" as I _convert cash savings into silver savings_.


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## Tweto

Tacitus said:


> . I don't so much "buy silver" as I _convert cash savings into silver savings_.


Most people don't understand this simple thing about Gold and Silver. You don't "buy it" you convert wealth from one asset to another. In my state there's no tax to acquire PM's or sell PM's so it's a simple transfer.

If you personally hold physical PM's what you have done is to take your wealth off the grid. It's now untraceable and transferable with no traces. Underground real estate planning has rich people converting there cash so that in case of a death the estate can be transferred without the government knowing about it. This is kept quite and not many articles are written about it.

There are several other advantages if you use a little imagination.

Technically Gold and Silver is money, cash is currency, the words say it all.


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## bigg777

Silver up another 4.40% this morning on international markets.

$20.45/oz @7:30am EDT


P.S. - With the 200 day moving average at $20.50, if silver breaks through that threshold, it could trigger large institutional buys.


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## bigg777

At 8:30 am, silver hit it's 200 day m.a.

Now things could get very interesting, especially if it closes above this level. Tomorrow, when the U.S. markets are open their should be some serious action, IMO.


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## Woody

Tweto said:


> Collecting PM's is only done after water, food, lodging, and security have been cared for. I could make an assumption that the majority of the Gold and Silver stackers are already comfortable with their core preppings.
> 
> This is the natural progression for PM holders.


I started stacking long before I knew what prepping really was. I collected collectible coins, loved silver 'proof sets' from 1955 on and Morgans. Back then I considered it my retirement fund, hoping they would be worth a lot more when the time came that I needed them. As collector coins not just PM's that is. Living in the boonies, there was always a minimum of a month or two worth of anything you could need at the place.

But your point is well taken! Folks SHOULD be comfortable with their food and sundry preps before putting their money into something that is just an investment or store of monetary value. Although.... a silver piece here and a silver piece there makes one feel good, me at least. And they add up quickly. A 'scrap' quarter every three months is an 'ounce, of value a year. Not an actual ounce of silver though, but I think y'all get my point. Skip that fast food lunch once a month and bring a PB&J to work, take that money to your local coin dealer... It will add up even faster.


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## Tweto

Woody said:


> I started stacking long before I knew what prepping really was. I collected collectible coins, loved silver 'proof sets' from 1955 on and Morgans. Back then I considered it my retirement fund, hoping they would be worth a lot more when the time came that I needed them. As collector coins not just PM's that is. Living in the boonies, there was always a minimum of a month or two worth of anything you could need at the place.
> 
> But your point is well taken! Folks SHOULD be comfortable with their food and sundry preps before putting their money into something that is just an investment or store of monetary value. Although.... a silver piece here and a silver piece there makes one feel good, me at least. And they add up quickly. A 'scrap' quarter every three months is an 'ounce, of value a year. Not an actual ounce of silver though, but I think y'all get my point. Skip that fast food lunch once a month and bring a PB&J to work, take that money to your local coin dealer... It will add up even faster.


I have had collector silver coin sets all my life. They were all presents from relatives.

I never took stacking seriously until about 5 years ago. I had already taken care of all my prepper concerns and wanted to do even more to soften the blow of a possible TEOTWAWKI scenario.

I do believe that we are in for some serious times ahead. Maybe Gold and Silver won't help but it won't hurt ether. The good thing about Gold and Silver is that it is valuable anywhere in the world and recognized by any other knowledgeable people and there would be no question about it's value.


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## Woody

Interesting thing about some of my coin investments. I religiously bought proof and mint sets each year from the mint. Some of them, from the 70's I think, are still only worth the amount of fiat I purchased them for. So in actuality I have lost money, or spending power on that investment. Say I bought them for $8 new, they are still only worth $8, but in 2016 dollars not the 1970 dollars I bought them with.

I also have silver certificates I pulled out from circulation that are used, and not worth much more than face value of $1. Had I known they would never really be worth more, as a collector piece, could have been turned in for coins or I believe actual silver before 1968.


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## bkt

Woody said:


> Interesting thing about some of my coin investments. I religiously bought proof and mint sets each year from the mint. Some of them, from the 70's I think, are still only worth the amount of fiat I purchased them for. So in actuality I have lost money, or spending power on that investment. Say I bought them for $8 new, they are still only worth $8, but in 2016 dollars not the 1970 dollars I bought them with.
> 
> I also have silver certificates I pulled out from circulation that are used, and not worth much more than face value of $1. Had I known they would never really be worth more, as a collector piece, could have been turned in for coins or I believe actual silver before 1968.


Not to take the wind our of your sails, but proof sets from the 1970s are not made using precious metals. It may be that San Francisco issued silver-clad coins, but big deal; I wouldn't give you anything for them. Offer me solid silver and we'll talk.

Not trying to be a jerk...just trying to be sure folks have their eye on the ball in the context of wealth preservation.

Don't look at PMs in dollar values. Look at them in the context of other consumables you might need or want. Dollars are the most manipulated false nonsense currency there ever was. Gold and silver are real. Meat and produce is real. Land is real. Pay attention to reality. To hell with dollars.

Personally, I buy bullion only. I'm a numismatist and I enjoy my coin collection, but I couldn't expect someone to respect the historical value of a Greek drachm from Rhodes minted circa 450BC other than as the small amount of silver it really is. All PMs I buy these days have the weight and purity clearly marked. That's what folks will be looking for.


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## Woody

bkt said:


> *Not to take the wind our of your sails, but proof sets from the 1970s are not made using precious metals.* It may be that San Francisco issued silver-clad coins, but big deal; I wouldn't give you anything for them. Offer me solid silver and we'll talk.
> 
> Not trying to be a jerk...just trying to be sure folks have their eye on the ball in the context of wealth preservation.
> 
> Don't look at PMs in dollar values. Look at them in the context of other consumables you might need or want. Dollars are the most manipulated false nonsense currency there ever was. Gold and silver are real. Meat and produce is real. Land is real. Pay attention to reality. To hell with dollars.
> 
> Personally, I buy bullion only. I'm a numismatist and I enjoy my coin collection, but I couldn't expect someone to respect the historical value of a Greek drachm from Rhodes minted circa 450BC other than as the small amount of silver it really is. All PMs I buy these days have the weight and purity clearly marked. That's what folks will be looking for.


You are correct, sorry for not pointing that out to folks.


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## Remyart

Where is the best place to buy Silver bars or coins from? Places that offer the best quality and real silver not just a layer of silver onto something else.. I had some coins that on the outside where covered in a layer of silver but on the inside where copper. totally ripped of.


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## Tweto

Remyart said:


> Where is the best place to buy Silver bars or coins from? Places that offer the best quality and real silver not just a layer of silver onto something else.. I had some coins that on the outside where covered in a layer of silver but on the inside where copper. totally ripped of.


I acquire all my Gold and Silver from local well established coin shops. By using the local people I can transfer cash and only cash to PM's and there will be no trace of it. The only caveat to this is if you do more then $10,000 at a time then the shop has to fill out a fed form with your name and address. I keep it under that amount for this reason, also they have never had more then 7 ounces of Gold and on one occasion they only had about 30 Silver one once coins that I could get.

If you trade over the internet, beware that there will be traceable records with any of these trades. I should not have to say why this is bad.

BTW I trade for recognizable coins like Eagles, Krugerrends, Maple leafs, and Liberties and I have no interest in collectable coins.


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## Woody

Agree! If you are buying a small quantity at a time, shop your local coin shops and talk to the folks there. find one that you like the sales folks at and stick to it. The more they see you around, and you are an actual buying customer, the more likely you will get a 'cash' discount for buying a larger quantity. Just don't expect them to sell them for under spot, they are a business after all.

I have bought Govt sealed rolls of silver eagles from JMBullion online. Not making a buy from them only recommendation or anything, just that I have dealt with them and no issues, insured delivery went great. They will all sell for over spot price for selling and under spot price for buying PM's. 

But I do recommend buying something that is recognizable by the general public, if you are buying to use in a situation. "Junk" silver (very worn US coins dated 1964 and before) are easily recognized. Bullion is great if you plan to hold.


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## Tacitus

Tweto said:


> I acquire all my Gold and Silver from local well established coin shops. By using the local people I can transfer cash and only cash to PM's and there will be no trace of it. The only caveat to this is if you do more then $10,000 at a time then the shop has to fill out a fed form with your name and address. *I keep it under that amount for this reason*....


Careful...the feds _may_ consider that to be _"structuring"_ which is illegal.

That is, if you intend to buy $15,000 of gold, and you make two separate transactions of $7500 each in order to avoid triggering the report to the government, those two purchases may be illegal, whereas the single larger (reportable) purchase would not have been illegal. You may want to check the law on that.

Interestingly, my LCS won't make cash transactions over that amount. I assume this is so that they don't ever have to make the report. The only reason I know that is that they have a sign up in their shop stating this.

Happily, or unhappily, for me, I don't have to worry about this problem, because I have never had $10,000 to spend on precious metals.


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## Woody

I never had to worry about that $10,000 ceiling either. Largest purchases I made were single, double eagles ( $20 US gold pieces before 1932, 90% gold) back in the 1970's. One was over $1,000 due to condition or date. Don't really remember the actual highest price I paid though. I only have 6, I went with silver because it was much more affordable for me.

Recently buying Govt sealed rolls of silver eagles, most paid was just over $600 as I remember. I have a few interesting bars but mostly recognizable US coins.


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## BillS

Remyart said:


> Where is the best place to buy Silver bars or coins from? Places that offer the best quality and real silver not just a layer of silver onto something else.. I had some coins that on the outside where covered in a layer of silver but on the inside where copper. totally ripped of.


You can buy from national dealers. I buy mine from Providentmetals.com. I've bought American junk silver and nationally minted coins from Canada and Australia. I don't trust silver bars or silver rounds. You can buy 1 kg Australian silver coins so you don't have to buy bars.


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## Tweto

Tacitus said:


> Careful...the feds _may_ consider that to be _"structuring"_ which is illegal.
> 
> That is, if you intend to buy $15,000 of gold, and you make two separate transactions of $7500 each in order to avoid triggering the report to the government, those two purchases may be illegal, whereas the single larger (reportable) purchase would not have been illegal. You may want to check the law on that.
> 
> Interestingly, my LCS won't make cash transactions over that amount. I assume this is so that they don't ever have to make the report. The only reason I know that is that they have a sign up in their shop stating this.
> 
> Happily, or unhappily, for me, I don't have to worry about this problem, because I have never had $10,000 to spend on precious metals.


I have never intended to spend more then $9000 at one time and I have never traded more then twice a year. Actually, I have never found more then 7 ounces of Gold coins on any one shopping trip.

On 2 trips I found no Gold and very little Silver and went home with just a few Silver coins.

One shop told me that they have one customer that brings in 3-5 Gold coins at the first of every month to pay for his retirement. He has been doing this for years.


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## TheLazyL

DrDianaAnderson said:


> DKR, I tend to agree with you. It doesn't matter how much silver or gold you have if there is nothing to buy. Knowing there are food and supplies in the pantry is more comforting to me than having stacks of coins. Not that there is not value in precious metals- I have a goodly stack of both brass and lead! :2thumb:


I just can't wrapped my mine around buying PM. Ride a short term inflation event, OK I understand that.

Long term? I can't eat PM. And I don't care how much gold or silver you offer, my cans of beans I'm keeping for my family.


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## bkt

+1 on local coin shops. Just make sure you know the current spot price of whatever metal(s) you plan to buy before you go so you can get an idea whether or not they're charging too much. Some shops around me just deal in collector coins and carry very little bullion. Calling ahead and asking if they carry bullion and what they charge over spot can save you some gas and frustration.

I've also purchased from APMEX, Provident Metals and JM Bullion and have had good experiences with each. Both Provident Metals and JM Bullion accept bitcoins and I've taken advantage of that in the past.



TheLazyL said:


> I just can't wrapped my mine around buying PM. Ride a short term inflation event, OK I understand that.
> 
> Long term? I can't eat PM. And I don't care how much gold or silver you offer, my cans of beans I'm keeping for my family.


You can't eat dollars, either yet (I assume) you keep them in your bank account. The purpose of precious metals is to preserve wealth, not necessarily grow it. The idea is that when the dollar loses its value, gold and silver will still maintain their value. As others have said, it's best to have the necessities taken care of first - food, water/water purification, meds, etc. - before worrying too much about PMs.


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## TheLazyL

bkt said:


> ...You can't eat dollars, either yet (I assume) you keep them in your bank account. The purpose of precious metals is to preserve wealth, not necessarily grow it. The idea is that when the dollar loses its value, gold and silver will still maintain their value. As others have said, it's best to have the necessities taken care of first - food, water/water purification, meds, etc. - before worrying too much about PMs.


Still trying to wrap my mind around it.

So the assumption is when paper is worthless merchants will accept PMs?

Silver has average right around $20 since 1973ish. If gasoline (as an example) doubles in price, it will take twice the amount of silver to purchase a gallon. How is that preserving wealth?

I understand the advantage of not putting all of your wealth into anything the Feds can trace or take. They can take my pension but not the silver buried in the backyard, but wouldn't they also make it illegal to trade in PM?


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## bkt

No, not really. Some might, but that's beside the point.

Let's say you have $10,000 in cash. After the dollar loses value you will have nothing. If you use part of that $10,000 to buy silver or gold, after the dollar crashes the metal you own will still have its value relative to other commodities. It's dollar value won't matter because dollars won't matter. Eventually after the dust settles, a new currency will come along and being able to exchange that metal for the new currency that is once again worth something is extremely useful.


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## TheLazyL

bkt said:


> No, not really. Some might, but that's beside the point.
> 
> Let's say you have $10,000 in cash. After the dollar loses value you will have nothing. If you use part of that $10,000 to buy silver or gold, after the dollar crashes the metal you own will still have its value relative to other commodities. It's dollar value won't matter because dollars won't matter. Eventually after the dust settles, a new currency will come along and being able to exchange that metal for the new currency that is once again worth something is extremely useful.


I think I got it, thank you for the explanation. I shouldn't be attaching a monetary amount to the equation.

PM because they are precious metals should be always worth something.


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## mikeymike

Where is the best website to keep a eye one the PM market? I have PM's that have been handed down to me and know very little about the markets and etc. I would like to keep a eye on them to see what is going on.


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## BillS

TheLazyL said:


> I just can't wrapped my mine around buying PM. Ride a short term inflation event, OK I understand that.
> 
> Long term? I can't eat PM. And I don't care how much gold or silver you offer, my cans of beans I'm keeping for my family.


PM's are real money. Fiat paper isn't real money.

Buy your preps first. Then keep your savings in PM's.


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## bkt

mikeymike said:


> Where is the best website to keep a eye one the PM market? I have PM's that have been handed down to me and know very little about the markets and etc. I would like to keep a eye on them to see what is going on.


There are a bunch out there...not sure there's a "best". kitco.com is pretty good. You can check spot prices and see recent trends with http://www.kitco.com/charts/popup/au24hr3day.html and http://www.kitcosilver.com/charts/24hoursspot.html

If you're looking to invest, maybe others here can assist. If you wish to sell, local coin shops often will evaluate your PM - determine the purity and weight - and make an offer. As when buying, you need to know the current spot price to conduct business intelligently.


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## hiwall

Anyone can look on ebay to see what coins and bars are currently selling for. The prices there change throughout each day so they are always current. There are many large bullion dealers who sell on ebay.


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## Tacitus

hiwall said:


> Anyone can look on ebay to see what coins and bars are currently selling for. The prices there change throughout each day so they are always current. There are many large bullion dealers who sell on ebay.


Newbies need to be careful here. In my experience, prices can be higher on ebay than anywhere else. ebay prices vary greatly depending on the seller. Sure, you can get deals there, but I would not go to ebay to learn the values of the products if I were just starting out.

Before going to ebay, find the spot price per ounce. (bkt linked to kitco.) Think of the spot prices as the melt price for bullion, regardless of what kind of coin the bullion is formed into. Then, you will know the base price, and be able to compare different coins with each other. Some coins will go for $2 over spot prices; some will go for $40 over spot price. Sometimes the premiums are warranted (e.g., due to rarity/demand), but sometimes the premiums are not warranted. When starting out, I would stay away from rare coins...too easy to get taken, I think. Learn the coins first while you buy bullion coins (lower premium coins, such as current or recent year Eagles [US], Maple Leafs [Canada], Libertads [Mexico], Philharmonics [Austria] or similar coins). Stick to one ounce coins for a while, so it is easy to compare coin prices to the spot value.

If you are on a reputable dealer site (bkt mentioned APMEX, Provident and JM Bullion), then you are probably fine. If I buy online (which is rarely), I go to a dealer's primary site, not their ebay store. The websites of those dealers are better places than ebay to learn the relative values of different coins.


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## LastOutlaw

mikeymike said:


> Where is the best website to keep a eye one the PM market? I have PM's that have been handed down to me and know very little about the markets and etc. I would like to keep a eye on them to see what is going on.


http://www.coinflation.com


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## Grimm

mikeymike said:


> Where is the best website to keep a eye one the PM market? I have PM's that have been handed down to me and know very little about the markets and etc. I would like to keep a eye on them to see what is going on.


I use http://www.coinflation.com/


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## hiwall

I just happen to like looking on ebay. Many bigger dealers like APMEX, Provident and JM Bullion sell there. And looking at prices are so easy because once you pick a certain coin you want to buy you have have them listed by price point. And on Ebay there is free shipping and no up-charge for using a credit card. I admit all the silver that I have bought has been on that site. I did check locally but it was cheaper on ebay (plus I must say I trusted the big online dealers more than the locals).
But like always you should buy anything where you feel most comfortable doing so.


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## Grimm

hiwall said:


> I just happen to like looking on ebay. Many bigger dealers like APMEX, Provident and JM Bullion sell there. And looking at prices are so easy because once you pick a certain coin you want to buy you have have them listed by price point. And on Ebay there is free shipping and no up-charge for using a credit card. I admit all the silver that I have bought has been on that site. I did check locally but it was cheaper on ebay (plus I must say I trusted the big online dealers more than the locals).
> But like always you should buy anything where you feel most comfortable doing so.


If you buy from ebay often you should consider setting up an account with TopCashBack. You can get 1.1% cash back on ALL ebay purchases while PMs don't qualify for the 2% ebay bucks.


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## Tacitus

hiwall said:


> I just happen to like looking on ebay. Many bigger dealers like APMEX, Provident and JM Bullion sell there....


I trust those dealers.

I was just warning newbies (not you) that there are individual sellers who may charge amounts that are unrelated to spot.

I would think that the main sellers would have similar prices to those found on their primary websites, and so their prices should be good.


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## hiwall

Grimm said:


> If you buy from ebay often you should consider setting up an account with TopCashBack. You can get 1.1% cash back on ALL ebay purchases while PMs don't qualify for the 2% ebay bucks.


I know because you told me before but I just never did it. Thanks for the second reminder and others might find that useful also. Pretty hard to turn down free money.


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## Tacitus

Tacitus said:


> ...This is an important week. I tend to think it will level off...but I'm worried it will keep rising. I hate buying now, after a big rise, but I will likely make a minor purchase on Tuesday, and just write off my losses as risk management if it drops back down...and then buy a lot more if it drops back down. If it goes to $25 by Friday, I may have to abandon all my metal buying, and return to normal preps.


Well, no $25 (thank goodness), and there was a bit of a dip today, so I bought. Turns out, it is easier to make a purchase when you have over-saved for that purchase. I spent more than I had in previous months for x amount of bullion, but I didn't feel as bad about it.

What convinced me to buy?

I looked at the percent of my savings that is in cash, and in the market...and the percent that is in gold and silver is very, very low. I've bought stock before, and lost money. I may lose money on precious metals, but why would I be more nervous about that than buying stock? In the long run, I feel that gold will outperform any stock or bond I could buy. If it becomes volatile, I can't imagine it being volatile in the down direction. I could be wrong, but we all have to decide what to do with our own money...so, I did.


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## Woody

I buy because they will never be totally worthless. Unlike pretty pieces of paper; 'shovels and rakes and other implements of destruction' as well as PM's will always have some value. Speaking of that... Where is Ray and my red VW micro bus?


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## BillS

We're seeing wild swings in the silver price. I think the big banks and the Federal Reserve are working harder to suppress the price. We'll see silver spike upward and then suddenly drop within minutes. The 200 month moving average price for silver is at $20.35. Once it moves above that there will be more institutional and hedge fund buying of silver.

The Republican National Convention starts this Monday. If there's widespread violence that will encourage more buying of precious metals.

I have some gold. I bought some 1/10 of an ounce Canadian Maples. I think the small size makes it easier to trade them when the gold price goes way up.

I listened to an interview with Bo Polny from gold2020forecast.com. He expects precious metal prices to go way up this month.


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## FloridaPrepper

It's great to see that over the last few weeks silver has been building support in the high 19's. This bodes very well for a continued price hovering around $20. Not seeing much more movement until after the election - everyone will be on the sidelines for the next three months as is usually the case.


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## BillS

FloridaPrepper said:


> It's great to see that over the last few weeks silver has been building support in the high 19's. This bodes very well for a continued price hovering around $20. Not seeing much more movement until after the election - everyone will be on the sidelines for the next three months as is usually the case.


The wildcard is when the COMEX defaults. It's being reported that there are more and more buyers who are holding out for physical silver instead of being paid out in extra cash. There's an estimated 50 to 100 paper ounces of silver for every ounce of physical silver in the COMEX vaults. On the other hand, it's worth noting that there's been talk of a COMEX default for years and it still hasn't happened yet.


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## icMojo

I thought the latest move was due to the Japanese bond market instability, could be wrong I suppose  (It wouldn't be the first time - not even the first time, today!)


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## LastOutlaw

Just let me know when it runs over 30 per ounce again and keeps climbing.


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## Tacitus

LastOutlaw said:


> Just let me know when it runs over 30 per ounce again and keeps climbing.


Is that when you sell?...Or when you head for your bunker?


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## LastOutlaw

Tacitus said:


> Is that when you sell?...Or when you head for your bunker?


Well last time it hit 30 the manipulators were able to push it back down. Im guessing that may be the magic number. If it hits 30 and keeps climbing it is probably out of their control. I won't sell until it gets like Iceland where you could buy a $300,000.00 home with silver you purchased for $300.00...lol
If the manipulators cant control it any longer the game is up.
I'm guessing around $30 for silver and above $1400.00 to $1600.00 for gold.

My silver is not an investment to make a profit on... it's my hedge against inflation.


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## Tacitus

LastOutlaw said:


> ...My silver is not an investment to make a profit on... it's my hedge against inflation.


Me too.

When I realized that silver (and gold) had come down significantly after the post-2008-rise, I took a break from traditional prepping to stock up. (I had never bought any before.) I decided that precious metals were preps for anything shy of TEOTWAWKI.

When metals start back up above the numbers you give (and maybe before that for me), that is my cue to stop buying metal, and restart buying more traditional prep items (e.g., food).

That is my current plan right now: when metals are low, buy metals. When metals are high, buy food, etc. I don't lose any sleep either way. I know you can't eat metal, but metals are better savings than wheat, since you can exchange them back for cash at any time you need.


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## BillS

LastOutlaw said:


> Just let me know when it runs over 30 per ounce again and keeps climbing.


If you wait until it hits 30 it may be too late. It might depend on how it starts going up rapidly. What if it becomes public that Deutsche Bank is insolvent and Germany doesn't have enough money to fix it? It's already in the news that it's not doing well. Once silver really starts going up the dealers may just stop selling it until it plateaus again. So maybe it goes from $25 to $60 before you can start buying it again.


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## Tweto

Gold and Silver has been difficult to find in any quantity. In the last few years, I have traded for all the Gold and Silver I could get. The most I have ever found was 7 ounces of Gold, but most the time, all I could find was 1-3 ounces of Gold and maybe 30 ounces of Silver. On some occasions, I have found no Gold and just a few ounces of Silver.

The point I think I'm making is that the only times the PM's are available is if some one is selling and they only sell when prices are up. When prices are down, there's no Gold or Silver for sell.

I go into town 1-2 times a year looking for PM's and if I find any, I trade for it. I don't care what the dollar value is because I think both will be going multiple times much higher.


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## LastOutlaw

BillS said:


> If you wait until it hits 30 it may be too late. It might depend on how it starts going up rapidly. What if it becomes public that Deutsche Bank is insolvent and Germany doesn't have enough money to fix it? It's already in the news that it's not doing well. Once silver really starts going up the dealers may just stop selling it until it plateaus again. So maybe it goes from $25 to $60 before you can start buying it again.


Bill
Too late for what?
I'm not buying at 30 and I'm not selling at 30.
I'm watching for signs is all.


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## Tacitus

BillS said:


> ...Once silver really starts going up the dealers may just stop selling it until it plateaus again. So maybe it goes from $25 to $60 before you can start buying it again.


If history is a guide, the dealers will always be selling...barring a fractal event such as US Dollar hyperinflation.

Silver went to 45 back in 2011, and I'm told (I wasn't there) that there two long lines in the coin store: sellers taking profits, and buyers trying to get in on the action. The store would buy and resell as fast as they could, over and over and over again. They make money more on the transactions (premiums above value), and less on the value of the metal itself. That is their business; they don't try to predict the market.

Having said that, 2011 wasn't hyperinflationary. If we get hyperinflation, then they may indeed stop selling...but so will hardware stores and grocery stores.

I don't have a strong finance/business/economics background, so feel free to comment to the contrary. That is just my understanding.


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## bkt

Tacitus said:


> If we get hyperinflation, then they may indeed stop selling...but so will hardware stores and grocery stores.


^^ THIS ^^

Repeat after me: "It is always a good day to trade Federal Reserve Notes for money."

And Tweto, I'm not sure where you are that you can't find PM but around me there are several LCS that always have plenty of everything. One near me stocks 100oz silver bars along with the regular smaller stuff.

Failing LCS there are always places like JM Bullion, Provident Metals and APMEX, all of which enjoy a good reputation.


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## RevWC

bkt said:


> ^^ THIS ^^
> 
> Repeat after me: "It is always a good day to trade Federal Reserve Notes for money."
> 
> And Tweto, I'm not sure where you are that you can't find PM but around me there are several LCS that always have plenty of everything. One near me stocks 100oz silver bars along with the regular smaller stuff.
> 
> Failing LCS there are always places like JM Bullion, Provident Metals and APMEX, all of which enjoy a good reputation.


Ebay is a good source as well.


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## BillS

LastOutlaw said:


> Bill
> Too late for what?
> I'm not buying at 30 and I'm not selling at 30.
> I'm watching for signs is all.


It may be too late to buy it cheap.


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## hiwall

> It may be too late to buy it cheap.


Maybe $20 IS really cheap!


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## LastOutlaw

I'm not buying any more. I've had what I need for a couple of years now. I'm just watching for the balloon to go up. These days everything extra goes into making the homestead more viable.


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## recon-1

Do most of you people buy silver coins?


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## Woody

I do. Back in the day I saved all the silver that I could find in circulation, junk silver today. I bought lots of Morgan silver dollars at I believe $4 or $5 each. I also collected coins, for a retirement plan, so have gold and silver worth many times the ‘face’ value in PM. Recently I buy the Silver Eagles from one of the online places, 20 to a roll. I wanted something easily recognizable, by about anyone.

My thoughts are I can take them anywhere and have someone recognize their PM value. They aren’t worth making fakes of… yet. I do have a pair of Morgan silver dollars, I forget the year and mint mark. One is real the other is a fake. I bought the fake knowing it was such, just to have. If you are not familiar with them, it would be hard to tell. If you are familiar with them it just sticks out as being a little different. Pick up any other Morgan and look at them, it is easy to spot. The lettering is a little larger and it is noticeably heavier.

I grew up being reminded of the Great Depression, over and over and over, by folks who had gone through it. Even back then, I knew that my coins would never be completely worthless, like the pretty pieces of paper folks lost everything on. Those were stock certificates. Also saw lots of pictures of folks carting around wheelbarrows full of German money to buy a loaf of bread. PM coinage still had an intrinsic value.

Even back when I was young enough to think I had it all figured out, I did get part of it right. Although many of the numismatic values did not increase like I had hoped for, the actual PM value did. Even a blind pig finds an acorn now and again.


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## Tweto

recon-1 said:


> Do most of you people buy silver coins?


No one buys Silver or Gold, they covert wealth from dollars to Gold or Silver and I do both.

For thousands of years the term "money" has meant Gold or Silver. The dollar is currency (as in what is the current method of wealth preservation). The current dollar has only been current for 50 years. Before that the US dollar was backed in money (Gold) and had value. Todays currency only has the value that the user gives it.

And to answer the OP, I do trade value from dollars to money all the time.


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## hiwall

> Do most of you people buy silver coins?


I only buy coins. I trust coins many times more than I would trust a bar that someone told me was made of silver.


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## recon-1

No bars for me just the coins for now. Been buying those Mercury coins lately.


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## bkt

I buy rounds in various weights - 1/10th ounce up to 10 ounces - as well as bars...1oz, 5oz and 10oz. Don't really see a point in 100oz silver bricks but they are kinds neat.


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## 1XJ99

bkt said:


> I buy rounds in various weights - 1/10th ounce up to 10 ounces - as well as bars...1oz, 5oz and 10oz. Don't really see a point in 100oz silver bricks but they are kinds neat.


I do as well. Last I checked spot was at
$17.56...


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## LincTex

RevWC said:


> Ebay is a good source as well.


A seller was selling 10ea 1oz Troy round Eagles/Liberties for $182.00 a few weeks ago; I got 20.

Today, they are $193.40 (free shipping)


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## ZoomZoom

I think as a group, we should work on our timing.

Y'all just mention here that you're in a position to buy.

I then pick my spot when it looks good to me and do a buy.

The price then crashes the next 3 days.

Then y'all buy at a nice price.


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## BillS

recon-1 said:


> Do most of you people buy silver coins?


I don't trust silver rounds.

I started out buying junk silver. Now I buy only Canadian Maples. You can get them cheaper than American Eagles.

I switched buying from Provident Metals to SD Bullion. They're cheaper. I can get Canadian Silver Maples for $1.79 over spot for any quantity.


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## TheLazyL

If PMs are such a good investment why would anyone be willing to sell?


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## camo2460

BillS said:


> I don't trust silver rounds.
> 
> I started out buying junk silver. Now I buy only Canadian Maples. You can get them cheaper than American Eagles.
> 
> I switched buying from Provident Metals to SD Bullion. They're cheaper. I can get Canadian Silver Maples for $1.79 over spot for any quantity.


Bill where is the best place to buy PM's?


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## hiwall

TheLazyL said:


> If PMs are such a good investment why would anyone be willing to sell?


There is an ever increasing supply. You could say the same about any gun - If a Colt is so good why you sellin' it?
I'm selling silver coins because with each dollar of profit I can buy more silver for my own stash.


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## Tacitus

TheLazyL said:


> If PMs are such a good investment why would anyone be willing to sell?


You could ask the same question about stocks and bonds: Why do people sell them?

PM dealers sell because they make their profits off of premiums, not off of the investment value of the precious metals. They sell on the way up; they sell on the way down, and they make money going both ways, regardless of the dollar-to-PM ratio because they charge a premium for delivery regardless of that ratio. The same is true with people who sell stocks and bonds.

As for me?...I'm not selling. But then, I don't look at PMs as an investment. To me, they are wealth preservation to protect against the changing value of the dollar. If and when we have serious inflation (dare I say hyperinflation?), PMs will retain their value while the US dollar loses its value.

Most people think of the dollar as a way to measure value. But, the dollar is not like a yard stick for measuring height, because unlike a yard stick, _the dollar changes in value_ based on Federal Reserve monetary policy and the monetary policies of foreign nations.

If your kid grows an inch in a year, and your yard stick shortens by six inches in the same year, did you kid grow 1 inch, or 7 inches? An investor would say your kid grew 7 inches, because investors measure gain in dollars. But I think we can agree that's not really true.

This is where PMs come in handy. PMs have a _*relatively*_ constant value, but the dollar changes in value based on Federal Reserve monetary policy.

A car may be $1000 today, and a chunk of gold may be $1000 today. But really, we have three things here: the car, the money, and the gold. All 3 change in value depending on supply and demand (too much of any of them, even of the money, drives value of the oversupplied item down...but the supply of gold increases far more slowly than cash).

Suppose instead of buying a new car for $1000 today, you put the money under your mattress. Ten years later, the equivalent new car is $10,000. You can't buy it with your cash. Your cash has lost value because of inflation. You still have $1000, but you can then only buy one-tenth of a car.

Suppose instead of putting the money under your mattress, you buy $1000 in gold. Ten years later, the value of the gold has "gone up." You can likely exchange it for about $10,000 in future dollars, and you can then buy that car. That is what PMs do: They preserve wealth.

An investor measures value in terms of dollars, and might say, "I made $9000 on my gold investment!" But your "gain" was really due to inflation (loss of value of the dollar), not due to wealth gain (increasing demand for the gold). The gold will hold its value relative to the car, while the dollar inflated (lost value) relative to both the car and the gold. That's why I buy PMs...not as an investment, but as wealth preservation. (And, gold won't be subject to bankruptcy or market crashes like stocks...it won't be subject to inflation like cash...it won't be subject to depreciation like the car.)

Now, obviously buying PMs is not for everyone. Unless you are totally comfortable with this approach, you should not buy any PMs.


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## bkt

Excellent post, Tacitus. Money, by definition, is a store of wealth. The currency we use, and indeed all currency everywhere, is not money because it is not a store of wealth. Gold and silver are money.


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## Tacitus

Thanks bkt.

At the risk of beating a dead horse...

*Thinking like an investor:* "Great news! My silver has tripled in value! I made a lot of money in a good investment. I think I will sell now and lock in my profits, and get my cash, which was always my goal: cold, hard, immutable cash...the measure of all value."

*Thinking like a prepper:* "Uh oh. My silver has tripled in value. Something may be seriously wrong with the economy, or with the cash supply, or both. My cash is really decreasing in value, in that I can't buy what I used to be able to buy with it. I better hold on to my PMs in case I need to exchange the PMs for something I need later, when cash is not counted, but weighed, like in Venezuela. I'll exchange my PMs for cash only when I have to, because if I do it too soon the cash will decrease in value further before I need something of real value, like food. Cash (shaking head)...mutable, unreliable cash."

--

A sudden increase in PM value (as measured by my national currency value) may be a time for me to stop _buying_ metal with my national currency, but that does not mean that it is time to "take my profits" by _selling_ my PMs for national currency. It is an indicator that I may want to use my currency to place that food order that I've been postponing while metals were low.

And, by the way, I don't put all my savings in PMs. I have selected a percent savings goal to have in PMs, and I am far behind on that, since my wife is not on board with a major commitment in this regard. So, I just approach this like everything else: I do a little here, and a little there...my PMs, like my stored food, are insurance I hope I'll never have to use. If I do have to use them, I will not be totally prepared, but I will be better off than most people.


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## Tacitus

Interestingly, PMs are also the prepper's hedge, in that they work in most economic disasters, and when economies are strong.

If our prepper concerns are misplaced, and we are actually entering a period of 100 years of a New Renaissance of Unprecedented Peace, Freedom and Prosperity for All Mankind...well, then, we can trade our PMs in for cash...unlike some of our preps. 

If not, and the stuff hits the fan, then the PMs can be cashed in at any time short of the end of the world to buy any prep need that we missed buying earlier.


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## Texas

I agree with Tacitus on the reasons to buy PM's. I would add that just like having more than the basic firearms, I like PM's just because I like the different kinds of rounds and bars. I like to see the different engraving and art work. I have a Glock but love to just look at my Beretta O/U just because its a functional gun and a piece of art. Enough rambling, hope you get what I mean.


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## TheLazyL

Tacitus said:


> ..the stuff hits the fan, then the PMs can be cashed in at any time short of the end of the world to buy any prep need that we missed buying earlier.


Wouldn't that be the same as accurately guessing when the time to get out of dodge is? The odds of guessing right aren't in our favor.


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## bkt

TLL, the point is that precious metals have never been worth nothing. If you have silver or gold, you can either cash them in (if cash will still buy things) or barter (if cash is worthless) for those things you need. You won't be doing much guessing: if the price in dollars of something is so high no one can afford it, but it can be bought with a few ounces of silver, that'd be pretty good. Who knows that the dollar value of silver might be at that time...but who cares? Dollars are the problem.

Precious metals are a hedge. In the event nothing at all ever goes wrong, hey - I have silver and gold! That doesn't suck! ...and scotch, and rum, and wine, and ammo, and guns, and food, and meds, etc....

If you have faith the dollar will hold strong (even though it hasn't), that's cool. Do whatever works for you. For me, I'll set aside a portion of my income to wealth preservation in the form of PM. Some goes into a 401k, some goes into a Roth IRA, etc. PM is just a hedge.


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## Tacitus

Dropping now. Good time to investigate buying if one is inclined to store wealth in this form.


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## Tweto

As long as the dollar is increasing in value, gold and silver will continue to decrease. Trump's election was a huge adrenalin injection to the US economy and as long as it lasts the dollar will be considered the best currency in a world of bad currencies and gold and silver will keep dropping.

If this continues, PM's will go lower. I'm buying more after the end of the year. But, there is the possibility that it will keep sliding until something serious happens.

However, world events are an unknown to the value of PM's. China, and Russia, will obviously not pass this up and buy more and decrease the world supply and if the rules of "Supply and Demand" worked correctly it should increase PM's but over the last decade common sense economic rules have not applied.

If gold gets down to $1000, buy, buy, buy!


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## AmmoSgt

for Trump's plan to increase jobs and increase exports needed to increase jobs and decrease imports he will have to do something to weaken the dollar. I'm not so sure that the dollar is strong right now on it's own merits as opposed to everybody else weakening their own currencies to gain trade advantage. 

Any attempt by the FED to increase rates will just strengthen the dollar. Trumps suggestion of a partial default on our debt or renegotiating the debt will weaken the dollar but risks the dollar crashing out of control.

These current PM prices don't seem to have much of a downside risk given what we know of the policy desires of the incoming administration.


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