# I'm looking for ideas for a survival retreat



## ckpettit (Jul 5, 2012)

Any info on plan's, locations, etc would be a great help 

I need all the help i can get. Thanks


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

Be where most folks ain't.


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

If you can afford it find a small valley with a creek, some flat ground, surrounded bu hills and with wildcat coal.

Only one good entrance thru that you cna dynamite and make impassable for vehicles in a SHTF.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

Having land over a confined aquifer is one of my "when I have money" criteria for a land purchase.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

BlueZ said:


> If you can afford it find a small valley with a creek, some flat ground, surrounded bu hills and with wildcat coal.
> 
> Only one good entrance thru that you cna dynamite and make impassable for vehicles in a SHTF.


Could you define wildcat coal? Jgoogled it just came up with places. Assuming industry term for unmined coal on property?


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## Wanderer0101 (Nov 8, 2011)

Ragnar Bensons' Survival Retreat book is a good place to start. You can buy a hard copy or you can probably find someplace to download a pdf version.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

*My criteria*



ckpettit said:


> Any info on plan's, locations, etc would be a great help
> 
> I need all the help i can get. Thanks


These are the criteria, I used. My biggest concern about my retreat is its distance, which is a blessing and a curse. Ideally criteria 1 and 2 work together, and you live where you plan to retreat. That is not possible for me...

1) Close enough to your source of income/home that you could get there in an emergency.
2) As far as possible from large population centers, major highways, military bases, and nuclear installations (mainly power plants but also silos).
3) Plentiful: water, fuel sources (primarily wood not coal), and arable land--make sure that you personally own enough land and resources, don't just depend on their being plentiful resources in the area, because your neighbors may not want to share.
4) Natural defenses: I prefer mountains, but thick forests, water, or uncrossible deserts also work!
5) Prepared neighbors (preferably local people close to the land, although other preppers could work).

If you have the $$ or the skills, once you find a place, think about putting a log cabin, with thick walls, on the property or consider the various options for underground homes. Both of these options provide great insulation and thus energy efficiency.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

I'm dreaming about this perfect place but I'm short on the cash side: http://www.privateislandsonline.com/childrens-bay-cay-bahamas.htm


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## pandamonium (Feb 6, 2011)

I certainly cannot afford to purchase property, so what I have decided to do is if the shtf, I am packing up everything that I can fit into my grand Cherokee and my brothers pick up and heading to a 10,000 acre WMA. There is a 300 acre lake there and one road that runs through there. I figure if it gets bad enough it wont matter if it is "state" owned property. Plenty of game, fish, birds, etc. The lake was once a cranberry bog that was dammed up to form the lake. Still cranberries growing there too. I just wanna go where the people aren't!!


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## kejmack (May 17, 2011)

pandamonium said:


> I certainly cannot afford to purchase property, so what I have decided to do is if the shtf, I am packing up everything that I can fit into my grand Cherokee and my brothers pick up and heading to a 10,000 acre WMA. There is a 300 acre lake there and one road that runs through there. I figure if it gets bad enough it wont matter if it is "state" owned property. Plenty of game, fish, birds, etc. The lake was once a cranberry bog that was dammed up to form the lake. Still cranberries growing there too. I just wanna go where the people aren't!!


Surely you are kidding! Hasn't it occurred to you that thousands of other people are probably betting on the same plan. And don't you think that the people already living in the area are going to lay claim to that wildlife as well. What are you going to do when the wildlife is gone?


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## pandamonium (Feb 6, 2011)

kejmack said:


> Surely you are kidding! Hasn't it occurred to you that thousands of other people are probably betting on the same plan. And don't you think that the people already living in the area are going to lay claim to that wildlife as well. What are you going to do when the wildlife is gone?


Not kidding a little bit! This is south jersey, there aren't thousands of other people who could last for two days in that environment. A handfull of hunters use the area during hunting season. If you have a better suggestion I am all ears! It would be nearly impossible to escape south jersey if things got to the point that would require bugging out. 
The plan is to stay alive untill the worst of the maddness passes, a few months maybe. Then see about escaping the state. Not a lot of options at this point, i'm stuck in jersey for a few years yet. Bugging in is not an option either, the house is right on a major thourofare in the area, house is 35' off the road. It wouldn't be long before the door to door shopping sprees start. I would just as soon NOT be there.
I you have a better idea, I would love to hear it!


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

CrackbottomLouis said:


> Could you define wildcat coal? Jgoogled it just came up with places. Assuming industry term for unmined coal on property?


yes Wildcat coal are seams too small ot be worth it for industry to bother with. But isnce in this country we are blessed with such large seams the bar of whats considered "worth it" for a company is pretty high.

Never hurts to have your own source of heat and/or steam.
IN the deprerssion many people sold it.

almost all of appalachian mountains are on top of wild cat coal, Pennsylvania is full of it too.
Other states too but the appalachina mountains are where its very prevalent.
if you ahve larger property chances there are good there might be coal on it somewhere.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

pandamonium said:


> I certainly cannot afford to purchase property, so what I have decided to do is if the shtf, I am packing up everything that I can fit into my grand Cherokee and my brothers pick up and heading to a 10,000 acre WMA. There is a 300 acre lake there and one road that runs through there. I figure if it gets bad enough it wont matter if it is "state" owned property. Plenty of game, fish, birds, etc. The lake was once a cranberry bog that was dammed up to form the lake. Still cranberries growing there too. I just wanna go where the people aren't!!


:dunno: I don't think its a good idea to plan on squatting on anyone else's land, or even state land, unless it is really in the middle of no where! I bought my property for just 40k and there are lots of properties out there if you look for them. Check out Bank foreclosures and auctions. It's fine to have a few thousand of acres that MIGHT be available to you, but I don't think you are prepared unless you have a foothold of property that establishes you as a resident of the area. BTW... you want to get to know your neighbors, can't do that if you don't really own the land...



Padre said:


> don't just depend on their being plentiful resources in the area, because your neighbors may not want to share.


...Hi, I am joe smoe and I plan to squat on that land down the street in the event of a SHTF.


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## Nadja (Jan 12, 2011)

pandamonium said:


> Not kidding a little bit! This is south jersey, there aren't thousands of other people who could last for two days in that environment. A handfull of hunters use the area during hunting season. If you have a better suggestion I am all ears! It would be nearly impossible to escape south jersey if things got to the point that would require bugging out.
> The plan is to stay alive untill the worst of the maddness passes, a few months maybe. Then see about escaping the state. Not a lot of options at this point, i'm stuck in jersey for a few years yet. Bugging in is not an option either, the house is right on a major thourofare in the area, house is 35' off the road. It wouldn't be long before the door to door shopping sprees start. I would just as soon NOT be there.
> I you have a better idea, I would love to hear it!


Assuming your a Marine or ex Marine, you would or should be able to survive there for a couple of months anyway. Then, if I were stuck on the loonie left coast, I would head up into the woods of Maine for a more permanent retreat area. In fact, while you still have good weather over there can you take a long camping vacation up to that area and maybe scout around for a more permanent place for later on ? I really think that if it were me stuck over there , that would be my best bet. Just think, Moose steaks ! mmmmm


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## pandamonium (Feb 6, 2011)

Padre said:


> :dunno: I don't think its a good idea to plan on squatting on anyone else's land, or even state land, unless it is really in the middle of no where! I bought my property for just 40k and there are lots of properties out there if you look for them. Check out Bank foreclosures and auctions. It's fine to have a few thousand of acres that MIGHT be available to you, but I don't think you are prepared unless you have a foothold of property that establishes you as a resident of the area. BTW... you want to get to know your neighbors, can't do that if you don't really own the land...
> 
> ...Hi, I am joe smoe and I plan to squat on that land down the street in the event of a SHTF.


 I can only dream about being able to afford to purchase a property. After alimony and child support, I bring home 500 for two weeks. Barely enough to live on. Buying property is out of the question. I am well aware that this is not the ideal situation, but I will do whatever I have to do to survive. The area is very rural, not many homes close by. It is big enough to be able to disappear. Which is all I need. I have about three months worth of food stored now, getting more as I am able.

Bottom line, we will all do what we can with what we have. Our goal is to get through whatever befalls us. If it means I have to bug out to the nearest remote unpopulated area, the that is what I will do.

Again, I know it is not ideal, but desperate times will call for desperate measures!!


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

kejmack said:


> Surely you are kidding! Hasn't it occurred to you that thousands of other people are probably betting on the same plan. And don't you think that the people already living in the area are going to lay claim to that wildlife as well. What are you going to do when the wildlife is gone?


Agreed. 
Every "non-prepper" I talk to has the same plan... head for the wilderness and go hunting.

I'll bet 10,000 people show up on that 10,000 acres and strip it bare of anything useful in two weeks flat.

Period.


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## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

If your in South New Jersey, I would head towards Ft Delaware - on map it looks like a state park on Delaware River... If you had an inflatable boat, canoe you could reach it... The bad thing being in SNJ is crossing that river to head inland to someplace safer. With the island if you were first there it would be easier to defend and should have fishing resources for you too, then after a few months bug out to Delaware and head to wherever....


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

ckpettit said:


> Any info on plan's, locations, etc would be a great help
> 
> I need all the help i can get. Thanks


If you are not going to live on it day in and day out to build a self sustaining homestead don't bother.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

The fantasy that you can bug out to some remote location with the skill knowledge and experience to create a self sustaining sanctuary with a garden, self sufficient power, livestock, hunting and gathering. In short doing what you have never done in order to survive is just that a fantasy. A fantasy that will get you and yours killed


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Very few people understand the difference between surviving and flourishing. Basically right now we are all flourishing(whether you think so or not). Surviving means extreme hardships (worse than the internet going down for an hour). Man has proved he can survive almost anywhere in most any conditions but in today's society most would die unless they really are set-up well. So plan well and pick your spot with care.


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## pandamonium (Feb 6, 2011)

LongRider said:


> The fantasy that you can bug out to some remote location with the skill knowledge and experience to create a self sustaining sanctuary with a garden, self sufficient power, livestock, hunting and gathering. In short doing what you have never done in order to survive is just that a fantasy. A fantasy that will get you and yours killed


At the risk of hijacking this thread, for me, the intent is NOT to bug out to this area and live there for the rest of my life. The intent is to go where the people are NOT, untill the worst of the shtf is over.

I am well aware of what it takes to survive in an area like this for a while. I am not new to the experience.

I know the type of people who live in this area, majority can't do ANYTHING for themselves. I doubt I will have a lot of folks out there. If other like minded people show up then I will have to see what happens.

Hiding in the house is out of the question. Buying a property elsewhere (at least for now) is out of the question. My options are severely limited. If things get ugly, as in riots and mass looting, people killing each other in the streets and the like, I don't think a road trip is gonna be such a great idea either.

If anyone has any GOOD ideas, instead of telling me how much of a BAD idea my plan is then I am all ears. I intend to survive, I am a survivor and I don't give up. With luck and prayer, things will hold together for another 5 years and I will be able to get a place of my own that will be in a better and, shall I say, not as vulnerable location, as the place I live now. Then I wont have to bug out.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

pandamonium my post was for the OP not you. I understand your position and think you most likely already have the best plan available to you. I envy those that live in the country and have a garden and their own well. I own my own home but we have a community well so if the power goes down we have running water for about 24 hours. Plus I have no reasonable place for a garden. So I also have to bug out in a bad SHTF situation. I bought an RV for that purpose and have several spots picked out. Many don't have ideal SHTF locations. All we can do is have a plan.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

LincTex said:


> Agreed.
> Every "non-prepper" I talk to has the same plan... head for the wilderness and go hunting.
> 
> I'll bet 10,000 people show up on that 10,000 acres and strip it bare of anything useful in two weeks flat.
> ...


A great many will show up to learn that land is being defended, claimed and homestead by those who have lived there for decades even generations. That the land will be well defended and protected by those whom the land will continue to sustain as it has been doing all along.

Even now there are places where if you are not related to the game warden or ranger in some way you are poaching no matter what your tags says. You will get it dismissed but by than your tag has expired and anything you bagged will be long gone.


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## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

Well pandammonia unlike longrider who has a giant stay away sign permanently attached to him, a bug out location is a smart choice. I'm not sure where you are but google population density maps. I'm in colorado so there are millions of acres of forests available. To the north is WY which is the least populated state in the US. Tons of open areas there too. South is NM and west is UT with fewer people in all 4 states than So Cal. So plenty of open spaces. Just scout out and when you pick a spot it might be a good idea to cache food and supplies nearby in case you can't carry all your goods with you. 300 bucks in cached beans and rice can be the difference between life and death. I have several abandoned cabin built by miners in the mountains scouted out and with plenty of down timber for building and heat survival can be easily possible. So don't listen to naysayers cause bugout is a damn fine option.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

Where I'm currently planning on buying land is roughly two hours away, and can become inaccessible(at least to those without well equipped/built 4wd vehicles) after a couple of heavy rains. My parents already have a place there, and I've met most of the folks who own land around them. Nice folks. It's a designated wilderness area, though it is close to a major highway, and unfortunately it's also known for being dotted with meth labs and marijuana growing sites. No utilities are available. 

My advice:
1. Look for places with really bad roads. This is one step that will reduce the number of people interested in it, and also increase everyone else's difficulty to get there if you buy it. The latter part is to mean that you'll have fewer uninvited "guests".

2. Look for places with no utilities available. This is another step that will reduce the number of people interested. It also means that you'll have to take care of those things yourself, so if you have to bugout to that location, it's ready and waiting. Side bonus is that if it's like the area I'm looking at, everyone else in the area has already provided for themselves.

3. Look for places near small communities, especially farming/ranching communities. I don't know that it's the same everywhere, but in my experience, the people are generally more friendly and more willing to help out(provided you understand that the same is expected in return).

I don't know why, but lots of the older farmer/rancher types seem to hang out at either dairy queens or local convenience stores. This has been true almost everywhere I've traveled in TX, haven't spent enough time in other states to know about them. You can find out a LOT about what's going on locally if you listen to those guys for a while, from hunting leases to land for sale, etc.. Might be worth a shot if you've got free time on your hands.


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## Lindyann42 (Nov 19, 2011)

I think Panda should go to his location and go ahead and bury some things here and there, just like mojo4 suggested. You will never have what you need, but you can always make do. Be evasive, avoidance will be key. Find those roads and drive some nails in the roots and cut the heads off, leaving the nails sticking up, of course. Cut a large tree or two across the roads. A cache of traps and cast nets would help you out a lot. In fact, digging a small cellar on your own property and hiding what you have extra around the house is a good option too. You can take a plastic barrel and cut the top out, cut another drum in half and press it down on it and use for a top. Also it is a little taller this way. Dig a hole with post hole diggers, and take plastic to put your dirt on, so it will be easier to leave things unnoticed. I always cut out the size of my hole, and then I try to scoop off the vegetation, dry leaves, etc... and leave together to lay back over my hole after I am done. Be sure to pack the ground good and leave the dirt a little high when you finish, because it will settle. Graves are always left a little high with dirt, because they settle. I have heard some have had problems with wild pigs digging things up, so may want to put a net of barbed wire or some hard type repellant to keep them from digging. Old rusty barbed wire will work best, because if the hogs dig it up, and leave it exposed, nobody will think much about rusty barbed wire sticking out of the ground.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

pandamonium said:


> If anyone has any GOOD ideas, instead of telling me how much of a BAD idea my plan is then I am all ears. I intend to survive, I am a survivor and I don't give up. With luck and prayer, things will hold together for another 5 years and I will be able to get a place of my own that will be in a better and, shall I say, not as vulnerable location, as the place I live now. Then I wont have to bug out.


My post was directed at the OP, not your post. Still, I am sorry you choose to take offense to it but I can only tell you what I know based upon my experience. Sorry it is not that yours is the best most effective plan that I have ever come across.

If you truly want something that works maybe you need to start by understanding what does not work. What I have posted is based upon what I know from my experience. I'd be curious to know how many of those who claim bugging out to a wilderness location have actually done it? If not what are they basing their conclusions on? What they imagine? Fantasy? A movie they once saw? Or a book they read? Not sources I personally base my life and death decisions on, I doubt you should.

Let me preface this by saying that from 1973 to 2003 like you I was on the BUG OUT bus, for many of the same reasons. I had scouted locations and laid down caches en route. In fact along several different routes over the decades. Based on have a plan, have a back up plan because plan A will fail and of course my Bug Out locations changed as I moved about. Over the years some of those BOL and cache locations turned into strip malls, in what was a very remote location at the time I laid the cache. I lost several rather spendy caches and a few BOL options. So I rerouted went on to plan B than C, D and E. In that time I developed and honed what I determined to be survival skills, took a host of courses plant identification, harvesting, uses, storage and preparation, hunted and fished, took courses in carpentry, small engine repair, cooking, sewing knitting, first aid (EMT certified) combat medic trained and basic ER skills, welding, basic metal fabrication, automotive repair, electrical, plumbing, animal husbandry, gardening, sailing, navigation, canning, trapping, tanning, fire arms & tactical training, martial arts, to name a few. For over thirty years it seems I have been in a perpetual student. Routinely survival camped with only a knife and a Altiods tin survival kit and learned to live in the bush for weeks. Though I have to admit to having call and be picked up twice as I was in over my head. Have spent a month or two bugging out a few times. Hunted, hiked, fished, camped routinely all over the western hemisphere. 
My bug out plans went from a plan with a
A) Fully loaded 53 chevy flat bed dually and Airstream 
B) Fully stocked 30 foot sail boat
C) The truck alone
D) The Motorcycle
E) The ATV 
F) and last on foot hoofing it, depending upon caches en route. 
I believed that I could have, would have survived. Like you I believe I am a survivor. Been there, done that, have the stories to tell and the scars to prove it. But that it would be meager, harsh and brutal existence at least based upon my experience. If one thing went wrong, death could be eminent post SHTF there would be no one to call to come get me. So not a way of life I would want to sustain long at my age. So I am not saying that your bug out plan is a guaranteed death sentence. I am saying if you have not done it it is vastly more difficult than folks imagine and at best it will be the most rudimentary existence.

Some time in the 90s it became apparent to me that a simpler self sustaining way to live would suit me better. In part because the advertising lifestyle I was living of compulsive consumption more never being enough, image is everything was making me sick and disgusted. So much of my focus changed. I sold an award winning business and in 03 bought our place after five years of looking for the ideal location. Since than we have aspired to be self sustaining. With every possible resource available to us and all the time in the world we have no quiet gotten there after ten years of effort.

Think about that last statement for a moment.

There are things, equipment and tools that it never occurred to us to acquire until we needed them. There are skills we needed to learn we never even thought of until we needed them. Point is, right now we are fortunate. We have the luxury of time and access to anything we need or want. We have been in place long enough that our crops go into the ground when they are supposed to, we have been here when wild foods have come into season. Here to hunt, trap, fish the available local game. So we have had time to gather prepare preserve and stock pile what we need to get us through the year. We know what we cannot or at least do not produce yet so we can stock pile those items. We raise enough livestock to feed us but not enough to have a viable breeding program. So eventually what we have would be gone. Two years worth of fuel maybe five if we rationed but no where near having self sustaining power. Again that is with every possible option open to us after ten years of working at it.

Point being where do you think we would be if we started with only what we could pack in on our backs and have cached with no further outside resources?

There are other issues like would I know what indigenous plants are available or when and where to harvest them in my turf? Do I know where the patches of huckleberry, Morel or Chanterelles mushrooms are? Can I harvest, prepare and preserve enough of them to last me through the year? Am I accustomed to eating what grows wild? If you are not living at your BOL you simply cannot know what resources are available or where they are. When you are hungry or starving is not a good time to learn how to gather prepare and consume foods you are not accustomed to. If you are not living on your BOL living off of what is available you definitely will not be accustomed to it when SHTF

Same goes with security if you do not live at your BOL or spend significant time there. You simply cannot know the lay of the land well enough to institute an effective defense plan.

If you do not live or spend significant time on your BOL how do you know someone else has not identified that turf as theirs? Already using it to sustain their family? If you are there for a weekend no one is going to mind especially of it is state or federal land. What happens if you are there a month and set up a permanent shelter? Do you know?

Lets add some things that never occurred to me before I bought property and moved out here. Small communities don't much like outsiders as general rule. It took years for us to become part of the community. After SHTF they are going to like them even less and will likely treat all outsiders the same. As marauding raiders threatening their well being. You can easily see that there is good cause for that concern. Even the best intentioned outsider is going to be a drain on the limited resources those communities will depend on to survive. How many little communities and towns do you need to go through before you get to your BOL. It may be one thing if you can show that you live up the road a couple of towns over but if you cannot show that you have a vested interest in the community or own land why would they let you through? Think about it. Would you allow strangers with no connection to you, your community or the land they intend on inhabiting to diminish the resources you and your families lives depend on?

Than consider your BOL. Are you absolutely certain no one owns it or uses it? I have a friend who has had people try to homestead on his private property convinced it was public land. After a couple of warnings the homesteader woke up to a bulldozer leveling his shack. Today 100s of thousands of acres of state and federal lands are leased and used by ranchers, farmers, timber, energy companies and private individuals. Try getting on those lands claiming that they are public lands. A Yellowstone buffalo a protected species life expectancy on leased state lands in Montana is about ten seconds after it is discovered. Montana ranchers will kill it the instant it leaves Yellowstone National park and enters onto any grazing lands they have leased from the state or feds. Out here folks get shot over mushroom picking areas. I have found myself locked out from a favorite fishing hole and hunting areas by timber companies. As I said before there is an area not far from me that if you are not a member of that community the game warden, park rangers will arrest you for poaching if you are hunting on their turf. No matter what license or tag you may have. Thats today, now imagine what it will be like once there is no rule of law and you enter onto property not knowing that it is turf a local uses to gather food or hunt on. Your presence represents a threat to their food supply. How welcome do you think you will be? Who do you think will be better equipped to defend that area? The person who has arrived with what they can carry on their back or the guy who lives there? The one who knows the land like the back of their hand. Has a homestead with ample supplies, food and ammo stored. A warm safe secure hardened home with the back up of his neighbors and community? Remember you will be the stranger the outsider.

I have just reread this post and it sounds pretty harsh written out as does the following ideas for a solution. But that is not my intent I am not saying all of this to shoot you or anyone down. Rather I hope to provide some observations to those who plan on bugging out they may not have considered. Help you recognize the need to establish yourself at your BOL. Nor are my thoughts about the solution intended as an attack or put down. Please try not to take this as an attack or put down.

Any statement preceded by I can't is a self fulfilling prophesy for failure. They are right. As long as they say they cannot get a homestead or that it is impossible out of the question, they won't be able to. The true fact is anyone who can afford rent can afford a homestead, if they are willing to pay the price.

As an example, when we bought this place we were very blessed I had retired. So we were able to pay cash for our place but my wife did not want to retire. She works in the medical field and it very much a part of who she is. So she chose to keep on working. To do that she had to commute three and a half hours each way. Which gave her 15 hours work days. She was up out of the door at 4:30 AM and got home at 8:30 to 9M. She did that for six years. It was tough on her but she was willing to pay the price to have what she wanted. Point is if you really want something you need to be willing to pay the price.

Before I had met my wife the plan was for me to live in the Airstream while I built the house. An RV or single wide is not as spacious or as comfortable as a decent apartment or house. But they are affordable. Hell, some single wides are free if you haul them to your property. So there is a bit of a sacrifice in that but land is a lot cheaper than a home and anyone who can afford rent can afford land if they look. Around here there is land available all day long for a grand an acre and I suspect that many areas in the country are cheaper. Most anyone can afford $5,000 or $20,000 for a 5 or 20 acre lot if they are willing to pay the price and make the necessary scarifies.

Many are not be willing to make the necessary kinds of scarifies. Like living in a mobile or spending hours commuting daily. It just means that they are not ready or willing to pay the price to have a homestead *NOT* that it isn't possible. Which is fine. Many folks are not cut out to have a self sustaining homestead either. It is not a way of life that suits them. But they are not qualified to say it can not be done.

However you have already stated the ideal is that you live and homestead your BOL. We agree on that. Why not start now instead of five years? Locate the place scout it out. Look for a place with infinite water, is fertile has abundant natural resources ideally surrounded by state or federal lands has limited access. Look for places that only have one road to your area and is geographically defensible.

A fifteen year loan on 20K at 4% is under a $150 a month. I know people who spend more than that on lattes every month. So it is hard to imagine that money is the hold up. Instead of waiting five years why not get a foot hold in now? Than in five years you will know your land. Be a part of it and the community you live in. Belong there. Making most of the issues I brought up and others I spaced non issues. By than you will understand more of what I am saying. Because you will be one of us. One of those folks protecting their homestead from those who want to bug out to your turf and use up your resources. In five years you will be in a better place to get the money to build a far better self sustaining home than what I own because it will have been built with that in mind rather than remodeled as ours is.

Anyway those are my thoughts, sorry it is so long. Hope some of it is helpful and that you at least take a look at the risks involved with bugging out. Regardless of the path you choose I do wish you the best of luck.


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

IMO,there will be no place to run and no place to hide.These people have satilites and soon will have drones[they are building them in florida as we write].I just hope my soul is in order because I don';t think the rst of me is going to survie these luceferians,just my opinion of course.Those things can see through any barrier we might hope to hide under.Maybe a cave as in head for the hills?
PS, I was going to download spell check,but since I don't know what I'm doing I did'nt,hope you cfan forgive the lack of it all.


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## Tribal Warlord Thug (Jan 27, 2009)

very well put longrider......and i agree 132% with ya too. thatz why we sucked it up and got rid of some toyz, bought our BOL out in the Lake of the Ozarks and am in the process of gittin' to know our neighbors and the community (ol ladys a volunteer fire fighter now, i'll be helping the local food pantry out, ect.) finishing up the house, scouting every inch of the property to map it in our heads and continuing to procure all the supplies/preps that we still have/want/need to start our homestead so we will not have to worry about buggin' out.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

You could check out realtor.com for foreclosed properties that you could bug out to. Keep a list. Check them out if you get time. Update your list once a month so you can remove the ones that sold and add better ones. If you have no better options, at least you have that one.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

LongRider said:


> Try getting on those lands claiming that they are public lands. Out here folks get shot over mushroom picking areas. I have found myself locked out from a favorite fishing hole and hunting areas by timber companies.


I know about this firsthand - when I lived in Northwestern Montana, the most hostile people I ever met in my life were the ones screaming to get off of their property.... with no fences, signs or boundaries of any type at all identifying "their" property as being separate from the other land around it.

I laugh and laugh and laugh when people say "if anything bad happens, they will flee to the mountains". They will all be killed, I am sure. Or starve, either way.



LongRider said:


> As long as they say they cannot get a homestead or that it is impossible out of the question, they won't be able to. The true fact is anyone who can afford rent can afford a homestead, if they are willing to pay the price.


 I saved up enough cash down-payment where I got owner financing at 0% interest for 5 years. Smile and be professional and look like a trustable person, or you won't be able to pull that off.



LongRider said:


> Hell, some single wides are free if you haul them to your property. So there is a bit of a sacrifice in that but land is a lot cheaper than a home and anyone who can afford rent can afford land if they look. Most anyone can afford $5,000 or $20,000 for a 5 or 20 acre lot if they are willing to pay the price and make the necessary scarifies.


My first structure on my property was an outhouse. I "prebuilt" all the frames and made all the cuts at the house, and loaded it on the trailer as a "kit". I had it completely built in just a couple hours (digging the hole took much longer).

Second structure was a 8x8 cabin. 4x8 OSB was about 5-6 bucks a sheet, and it took 14 sheets (less than $100) and some other scrap lumber (2x4 and 2x6 scrap from a construction subdivision) and some old windows, a door and some barn tin and I had a house (albeit small) for about $300.

I did later get a 14x76 single wide for *free* that a tree had fallen on one end of. I cut about 1/3 of it off and fixed up the rest. 14x40 is pretty big, compared to 8x8.

I did not commute every day, but I have spent many weekends out there. Get to know your neighbors!!!


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## pandamonium (Feb 6, 2011)

LongRider, excellent post, there are many good points to ponder.

Let me tell you about my situation and maybe you or someone else can come up with a better solution. After my divorce, in which I had to sell the house that I built, I have moved in with my brother and his wife. Very very generous of them!! After alimony and child support, my take home pay is barely $500 for two weeks. This has to cover food, gas, car insurance and 1 credit card bill that I got stuck with. I try to spend as little as possible on me. I have two children, 5 & 18. I spend as much time with them as possible. Not being with that little girl is the WORST part of the divorce. So, when I AM with her, I tend to treat her a bit. Believe me it isn't much, cause there just ISN'T much!!
So, buying my own property now IS out of the question. That is why I would have to wait 5 years, I have 4 years left to pay the alimony. Oh, and my credit rating took a smash from the divorce too.

My brothers house is literally 30' from the road, a rather busy road too. I would think, that in a SHTF situation, this place wouldn't be the safest place to be. The area is rural, mostly residential and some farms. But NOT defensible, just too vulnerable. Hence my decision to vacate. The rest of my family is in logistically/strategically worse areas. So that is not an option.

The main area I an considering, is a _state owned_ wildlife management area. There are no homes there, it is completely wooded other than the lake. One road in, one road goes through the whole place. I have spent A LOT of time out there hunting and fishing. That was what first made me think of the place. Over 10,000 acres, a 300 acre lake. Heavily wooded.

I don't know where you live, but if you have never been to South Jersey, it is NOTHING like North Jersey!! Look at it on google maps. It is mostly wooded areas. I could literally walk out the back door and walk in a straight line for nearly three miles and I would be in the woods the whole way. Granted I would be cutting through people properties, but still in the woods.

The idea is if it did come time to vacate, we would load up all that we have prepped, tools, clothes,guns, ammo, bow, etc. And disappear untill the worst is over. We would, with what we have in stock and what I/we could hunt/trap/catch/harvest, get by for as much as three months. After, come back to the house, if, it is still standing. After that? Honestly, who knows?

Mine and my brothers skill sets are very comprehensive. There is not much that I haven't done, and if I haven't done it my brother has. I have spent periods of time in the woods with next to nothing, I DO know how difficult it is. I am NOT fooling myself about anything. I am well aware of the risks involved and he requirements of living in the woods for a few months.

So, What do you guys think.

Crap, maybe I should start this in it's own thread. *Sorry for hi-jacking!!*


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

I'd do a map of population density and then I'd hunt around for a map of wildlife density that some State or Federal wildlife bureau has compiled. I'd look long and hard at those two maps and try to find a spot that was high on wildlife density and low on, and far away from, population density.

If you're anywhere near a high population density area and you bug out to a wilderness area, you're likely to have a lot of company pretty damn quick and the wildlife is going to be shot to pieces in the first few weeks. So, the way I figure it, while the getting is good, get far away, so far that it becomes a chore for those who picked clean the near areas to follow you later when the roads become impassable. 

Then I'd take some time to scout out these far-away areas and if resources permit, drop a buried cache there to tide you over once you arrived in the area after an event. Stock one area first. Then if society is still standing, when your resources permit, stock a back-up area. Rinse and repeat. 

The point here is that if you're going to live off the land it will help you immensely if you're not one of 759 people trying to do the same in a space of 10 square miles.

Also figure that the locals aren't going to want you there, so screw 'em, prepare your cache in a location that is off the beaten bath - if it's easy for you to get to it, then it'll be easy for the locals to stop you getting there.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

pandamonium said:


> We could hunt/trap/catch/harvest, get by for as much as three months.
> 
> So, What do you guys think?


I think there will be a LOT more people besides you that are thinking along the same lines, so you won't be the only ones out in the woods hunting/trapping/catching/harvesting... and with that many people around, three months of "available food" will become three days.

Don't believe for a second that you are the only one that has done a lot of hunting and fishing that knows about that area.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

pandamonium said:


> I certainly cannot afford to purchase property, so what I have decided to do is if the shtf, I am packing up everything that I can fit into my grand Cherokee and my brothers pick up and heading to a 10,000 acre WMA. There is a 300 acre lake there and one road that runs through there. I figure if it gets bad enough it wont matter if it is "state" owned property. Plenty of game, fish, birds, etc. The lake was once a cranberry bog that was dammed up to form the lake. Still cranberries growing there too. I just wanna go where the people aren't!!


I am in a similar position and also plan to head to a remote area. I dont have a choice at the moment. I have found a couple remote swampy areas i can get to via vehicle then shuttle goods to an island in boat then hide said vehicle. I choose nasty swamps because I hope less people will be willing to stay in a place like that. This is not a long term plan. Just a way to ride out the beginning of the storm. Hopefully food stores and bug spray will last through the worst of it. Hopefully I can then emerge and make myself useful to people. As you say, its not the best plan but the one within my means until I can do better.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

I don't want to sound like I'm down on the "I'm heading to the woods" idea, since that's where I'm going, but realistically if you don't already have a shelter of some sort in place before you get there, you're going to have a _really_ hard time surviving. Living in a tent or a makeshift shelter for a month or more is going to suck. The other thing is carrying all the tools you'd need to construct a more permanent shelter, assuming you have the knowledge to build something like a log cabin, for example. Back in the days of crosscut saws and axes, lumberjacks burned something like 7000-8000 calories a day, so your food requirements will be elevated as well.

I just don't see "heading to the woods" as a viable option for a major event without having a shelter already in place. I'm sure there are people out there capable of doing it, but probably not many.


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## kejmack (May 17, 2011)

Pandamonium, I had to chuckle when I read your line about being able to go three miles. Out here, it is 40 miles in any direction. LOL 

Honestly, I don't care what your skill set is, a plan to "live off the land" is a death sentence. You would be better off staying put until you can make it out of the city or place you are in and get to a safe place where you have a chance at survival.


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## pandamonium (Feb 6, 2011)

kejmack said:


> Pandamonium, I had to chuckle when I read your line about being able to go three miles. Out here, it is 40 miles in any direction. LOL
> 
> Honestly, I don't care what your skill set is, a plan to "live off the land" is a death sentence. You would be better off staying put until you can make it out of the city or place you are in and get to a safe place where you have a chance at survival.


One thing is certain!! South Jersey aint TEXAS!!! My point with that 3 miles was just that many folks think Jersey is all concrete and asphalt. Not the case in South Jersey.

I would not be living off the land, I would merely be "supplementing " off the land. With the food we have put up already, we would only need to supplement.


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## pandamonium (Feb 6, 2011)

zombieresponder said:


> I don't want to sound like I'm down on the "I'm heading to the woods" idea, since that's where I'm going, but realistically if you don't already have a shelter of some sort in place before you get there, you're going to have a _really_ hard time surviving. Living in a tent or a makeshift shelter for a month or more is going to suck. The other thing is carrying all the tools you'd need to construct a more permanent shelter, assuming you have the knowledge to build something like a log cabin, for example. Back in the days of crosscut saws and axes, lumberjacks burned something like 7000-8000 calories a day, so your food requirements will be elevated as well.
> 
> I just don't see "heading to the woods" as a viable option for a major event without having a shelter already in place. I'm sure there are people out there capable of doing it, but probably not many.


 I have the tools and the knowledge and experience to built a shelter that is adequate for a couple few months if needed. And the tools are handtools, the experience is practical. I have built a similar shelter with said tools. NOT a 2000 sq ft log cabin, but a shelter that will retain heat, be water "resistant", and is very hard to see untill you're almost on top of it. The first one I built in a day and a half.


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

Best plan, place or what works best...If you can buy land, look for BLM land which usually is in the west. You can buy huge tracts of land for near nothing, but, be sure there us a water source and it has some landscape as well as trees. Some of those tracts of land are 5,000 feet up in the Snake River region, well above any water sources, although could be quite strategic, also would leave you exposed from the lack of trees. Well, you get my point. 

I had thought of this for us, buying it with the intent of "camping" on it. Your own private campground. 

If you cannot buy, then know your region and find the most remote place you can, that would be my thoughts. Out here we have lots of those spots and most people, agreeing with pandamonium, will not think to, or would not have the ability or thought even to do so. There will be others like minded to yourself, but best we can all hope for is to be sure we have strong personal defenses in place and also having others within our family with us, safety in numbers, stability and survival in numbers.


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## Nadja (Jan 12, 2011)

Head for the hills. Hmm, just think about this for a minute. 

It is Dec. , something happens, you head out to the hills. Lets see here, snow ? Rain ? Cold for sure, and your going to be trying to survive. You and only a few million people all, trying to shoot bambi to eat ! Without the proper gear for snow camping, doomed is the word for most people. I say this from experience, as I used to do a lot of snow camping. Tough at best , even when preparred for it. Now add those desperate other people out there with guns and no food or forethought. Very very Bad !


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

rabidcoyote666 said:


> very well put longrider......and i agree 132% with ya too. thatz why we sucked it up and got rid of some toyz, bought our BOL out in the Lake of the Ozarks and am in the process of gittin' to know our neighbors and the community (ol ladys a volunteer fire fighter now, i'll be helping the local food pantry out, ect.) finishing up the house, scouting every inch of the property to map it in our heads and continuing to procure all the supplies/preps that we still have/want/need to start our homestead so we will not have to worry about buggin' out.





LincTex said:


> I saved up enough cash down-payment where I got owner financing at 0% interest for 5 years. Smile and be professional and look like a trustable person, or you won't be able to pull that off.


Both these are worth repeating. As an example to all those who say they can not do it. It is possible for you to have a safe secure environment for your family. It may take some sacrifice and determination but it is doable


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## Nadja (Jan 12, 2011)

Best advice I could ever give. I am in my mid 60's and know the ways of the world. 

I would if I lived in the city, as I once did, to find a place way out in the woods, where there are no elect lines or even phone lines. I found 8 secluded acres, 6 miles of dirt roads, well away from any pavement, and about 26 miles from the nearest town. 

Now, one of the things you need to be aware of , or a couple of things, is first off, finding work can be a trial, and when you do find something, it is not going to pay you like in the cities. Second, it takes time to get "in" with the local folks. But here, in my town, just about everyone knows everybody by first name. Mayberry, you bet. But Andy and Barney do keep the hoodlems at bay. You walk around here with your pants around your knees, and you will end up in the hoosgow. Then when the justice of the peace lets you out, you will be escorted to the end of town and invited to leave. 

Sure makes for a quiet extisence and less worries. If you move out of the city now, you just may have time to get ingrained into country life and aquire solar, wind, water power or what ever will work best for you. Gangs coming up from the big city down in the vally to create problems ? Well, picture a bunch of mad goat ropers with old fashined 30/30's. Don't laugh, they are potent weapons. Thing is, all these goat ropers around here shoot, and shoot well. You don't want to go to any rural area with bad intentions on your mind. Us locals will NOT adapt to you, you will adapt to us or move. Keep that in mind. If you want sidewalks and green lawns, this is not the place for you to come to. 

But , if you want peace of mind, good sleep at night, then this is the place to be. 

You can find 5-10 acres in most places really cheap if you look where there are no impovements, utilities or paved roads etc. 
Then after making the minimum down payment, find an older used mobil home and have it moved in. 
Septic tank, solar, back up gennie and your pretty well set. Oh, a couple of nice sized dogs not used to seeing people much, are a real assest to sleeping well at night. Something for thought anyway.


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

Nadja,thats right,down here we have some places low as $300 dn and a couple hundred a mo.
But some have restrictions and some are not developed at all.When we moved here nobody had lived here since 1953,just a clump of woods.We camped out primitive until we got money for power ,then mobile home,finally a house.We worked all the time,still do,only hubby has lots of limits.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

I know of places in North Dakota (yes, it can get cold) that have an abandoned farmhouse with a decent well (if cleaned up), power lines, septic, and several outbuildings on a few acres..... surrounded by excellent farmland.... for less than $10,000. Not lying.


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## Theriot (Aug 17, 2012)

How about libya. You could test your survival skills there right now.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

Nadja said:


> Best advice I could ever give.


Best advice anyone can give or receive. The sooner those who truly want to survive or just plain want a decent life start their own self sustaining homestead the better.

I think people would be amazed at what they can accomplish once they get past all of the I can't excuses and decide to make it happen.


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## Doomsday (Apr 1, 2012)

LongRider said:


> Best advice anyone can give or receive. The sooner those who truly want to survive or just plain want a decent life start their own self sustaining homestead the better.
> 
> I think people would be amazed at what they can accomplish once they get past all of the I can't excuses and decide to make it happen.


Im looking for a cheap but good BOL


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## Nadja (Jan 12, 2011)

Will you survive in your home in the city ? 
I have seen a lot of people over the last couple of years both here and on a few other sites that think they will be able to survive after the s...t hits the fan in their homes in the cities. I have given this a lot of thought and my answer would be NO. First , you would have to survive the angry looter phase, which the largest part would be from a couple of days to a couple of months. 
Then you would have he tougher and more careful scroungers going from building to building looking for anything that they could use. 
So you have a larger then most back yard and you think that by planting a garden , it would provide you with enough food to keep you and your family going over the long winter months. Not possible. You can not grow enough food to provide for a family of say 4 in a city back yard to keep you going. 
Even if you have a very large back yard, it would most likely fall prey to :"scroungers:" Keep in mind , that even if you have a two year supply of food stored, you would give yourself and your food away when you start cooking it. If you went outside, sooner or later, you would be spotted by someone else.

Water in the city afterwords would be a major concern.

Sewage would be yet another major concern

By any realistic standards , anything less then two fertile cleared acres would be a waste of your time and resources. Do you living in the city have two plus acres of good fertile land to plant and tend ? Not likely. If your one of the even less fortunate ones living in an apartment building, even less of a chance. 

To survive a long term whatever, you need good fertile land, all year source of good clean drinking water and irrigation water, and method of sewage disposable. 
\
So , all you people living in the city, give a lot of thoughts to your current plans to wait it out in the cities.


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## semperscott (Nov 7, 2010)

Pandamoium I understand your issues and wish you the best DevilDog! Only suggestion would be to head to the ocean, get a boat and head South. From Virginia on down South there is lots of places to land in remote regions and head inland. Contact some Marines around Camp LeJeune and attempt to hook-up with them in SHTF.

And for those looking for a good BOL, check out this listed property:
http://harpandassociates.com/mls-details/?ListingID=128889


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## Jerry D Young (Jan 28, 2009)

My thoughts on obtaining a piece of property. This is what I’m looking for when I get rich and infamous:

Minimum of 100 miles away from any SAC base, missile site, naval base, military staging & training area, and major cities

Minimum of 50 miles away from large cities, nuclear power plants, research center, dams up stream from the proposed location, concentrations of potentially dangerous businesses (Refineries, bulk fuel plants, industries using chemicals in bulk quantities, airports, rail interchanges, etc)

Near a small city or town of twenty-five thousand population or less, with a diversified economic base is best. Agriculture does not have to be the primary industry, but there should be at least some types of food production locally. Small truck farms are better than a huge single crop plantation.

Preferably, the town will own and operate its own power generation plant as well as the water supply and sewer disposal facility. In some smaller towns, this is not possible, or even likely, but check anyway. You might get lucky.

Make sure you have absolute right of way to the property. Some realtors will sell land in the middle of a tract that has no access. Beware.

Climate/micro climate: The area should allow production of food crops with reasonable effort, and not have extremes of temperatures summer or winter. Green houses can off-set somewhat marginal garden conditions.

Good southern exposure on at least part of the property

Hopefully a wooded/forested area to the north of the property

Flowing water is nice, a good potable water source is mandatory. Check out the depth, quality, flow rate, and expense of water wells in the area

The ideal water situation would be a reliable city or rural water district supply of high quality untreated water, backed up by a twenty-five to fifty foot shallow well with a static water level of seven to fifteen feet and a flow rate of fifteen hundred gallons per hour or more of soft, uncontaminated water with a three-quarter horsepower to two horsepower shallow well pump with a forty-two to one-hundred-twenty gallon pre-pressurized storage tank. Finally, with a hand pump kept in good repair on the well you are ready for any emergency.

The sewer disposal situation is a little different. Very few areas permit installing a septic system if a city sewer line is within two hundred to five hundred feet of the property line. You have either city sewer or a septic system. You cannot have both of them. An exception is where a new sewer line is installed in an area not formerly served by city sewers. There is usually a period of two to five years to allow everyone time to make hookups before the septic systems are declared illegal to use.
If you must hook to the city sewer, be sure that the system is reliable. If it is not reliable during normal times you really have problems in a disaster. If reports indicate poor sewer service either find another place in the same town with better service, if possible, or find another area.

Check on the availability of telephone, cell phone service, natural gas, and electric service before purchasing the land. If any of the services are not available, you must consider what alternatives you will choose.

Besides room for a garden, there should also be space available for burying small amounts of human waste and garbage for a short time if it ever becomes necessary.

Space provisions for dogs, cats, rabbits, and chickens, bees, etc., should be made if you ordinarily have them or plan to keep these animals. Space should also be allocated for any other special reasons you may have.

Total acreage depends on how much elbow room you want, garden space needed, animal space needed, farm support crop area needed, firewood requirements, among any other needs you may have. I don’t think you can have too much land. Five acres if you aren’t going to burn your own wood for heat. Ten acres is better. Twenty-five should do. More at your discretion and bank account balance.

If you are going to use wood for fuel, most forested lands can produce one cord of firewood per acre per year continuously by using coppicing techniques. Try to get double the amount of woodlot you need and set it up to coppice as you harvest the wood.


Just my thoughts on the matter at hand.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

Jerry D Young said:


> My thoughts on obtaining a piece of property. This is what I'm looking for when I get rich and infamous:


I think this is the mindset that puts having a self sustaining homestead in the fantasy realm for so many. There is no need to be rich to have a decent self sustaining homestead. An aside as you mentioned it IMO any place that is connected to any kind of sewer system, city water or has a population of 25,000 is NOT rural or a decent BOL location. By definition it is urban.

Strange the differences in perception. If I had more than 200 people within 20 miles of me I'd be moving due to the expanding urban sprawl


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## Jerry D Young (Jan 28, 2009)

I was trying to say that being near, not in, a community of 25,000 or less, would be all right. Guess I need to reword that sometime.

It doesn't take much for me to feel rich. 

Just my opinion.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

Jerry D Young said:


> I was trying to say that being near, not in, a community of 25,000 or less, would be all right. Guess I need to reword that sometime.
> 
> It doesn't take much for me to feel rich.
> 
> Just my opinion.


Nothing wrong with your opinion. Just pointing out the differences in perception. The closest high density population of about 42,000 to just over 100 miles away. Between us and them I think the largest population is about 5,000. It is actually much closer than I wanted to be but I wanted to keep my wife. Again a matter of perception, to her way we are way out in the wilderness. To me we need to be at least 100 miles, more like 200 miles farther out and off grid to really be in the wilderness.

IMO the farther away from people the better.


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## tc556guy (Apr 28, 2011)

LongRider said:


> Nothing wrong with your opinion. Just pointing out the differences in perception. The closest high density population of about 42,000 to just over 100 miles away. Between us and them I think the largest population is about 5,000. It is actually much closer than I wanted to be but I wanted to keep my wife. Again a matter of perception, to her way we are way out in the wilderness. To me we need to be at least 100 miles, more like 200 miles farther out and off grid to really be in the wilderness.
> 
> IMO the farther away from people the better.


Part of the problem is that you aren't going to survive well as a lone wolf. You'll still need society in some form. If you're out in the middle of nowhere, you wont have a group to work with to pull through. One nuclear family group and its resources wont be enough.

Whatever the current population of your local population centers are, it'll be a crap shoot on whether they'll be diminished through illness, flight, etc or stressed through an influx of refugees. No way to know which way it'll go ahead of time.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

tc556guy said:


> Part of the problem is that you aren't going to survive well as a lone wolf. You'll still need society in some form. If you're out in the middle of nowhere, you wont have a group to work with to pull through. One nuclear family group and its resources wont be enough.
> 
> Whatever the current population of your local population centers are, it'll be a crap shoot on whether they'll be diminished through illness, flight, etc or stressed through an influx of refugees. No way to know which way it'll go ahead of time.


Why is that? I keep hearing that but no one seems to be able to give an example of any experiences they have had to support that.

The two of us have been doing just fine for about ten years now. If SHTF there are other property owners around that have agreed to band together for perimeter security. There won't be any refugees staying here long, unless they insist on being fertilizer. Beyond that most folks up on this hill are pretty self relent.

Thought I would add this a few years back a Bro's wife's grandfather passed, at 76. He lived his whole life out on his place away from everyone. Only got a phone 2 years before he passed that was only because my bro's wife paid to have it installed so she could check up on him occasionally the only electricity he ever had was a single light bulb. According to him, when the sun went down it was time to sleep when it came up it was time to go to work. Had a small herd of cattle he raised to sell for the few things he did not make or grow. Was a great mentor, friend and inspiration to me. Pretty much how he lived all of his life, just him the wife and kids. The last twelve or so years alone, except when folks would visit. He had wonderful stories of a magnificent life. Another reason why I wonder why folks think they can not make it on their own


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

LongRider said:


> Why is that? I keep hearing that but none seem to be able to give an example of any experiences they have had to support that.


TC556guy is probably referring to the fact that it would be very difficult to secure your property against a group of marauders and still maintain a self-sufficient lifestyle. If you never have to worry about the band of marauders part, you should be fine


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

LincTex said:


> TC556guy is probably referring to the fact that it would be very difficult to secure your property against a group of marauders and still maintain a self-sufficient lifestyle. If you never have to worry about the band of marauders part, you should be fine


Sounded as if his assumption is that a nuclear family could not do produce enough to sustain itself that somehow a group is required to do the work. It is not the first time that I have heard that opinion. Which is pretty contrary to our experience and I wonder what folks make that assumption. For the most part out homestead is a one man operation


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## EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER (Sep 24, 2012)

Im planning on making something I call a "badger house"

Its a house dug into the side of a hill/mountain with a hidden entrance with a water collection system, 1 or 2 escape routes, and lots of rooms.


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## EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER (Sep 24, 2012)

Its going to be able to able to house up to ten small families.


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## cnsper (Sep 20, 2012)

tc556guy said:


> Part of the problem is that you aren't going to survive well as a lone wolf. You'll still need society in some form. If you're out in the middle of nowhere, you wont have a group to work with to pull through. One nuclear family group and its resources wont be enough.


One name... Dick Proeneke

How did all the people that moved west in the 1800's survive then when their house was out in the middle of nowhere? They also had bands of marauders to contend with.. i.e. Indians, outlaws. And they had to defend themselves when the attacks came, not when help arrived. Yet they persevered.

If they needed the warm and fuzzy of society, they went to the nearest town which sometimes was days away from home.

You need society if you think you need them. People have been doing fine for years without society. Not all of them are freaks either. Me, I can not see another house unless I climb the 700' hill behind me. Even then I can only see 5 and of those, 3 are part timers.

I was born way too late. Should have been born when they were crossing those foothills they think are mountains back east.... LOL

Ok for the OP... To get far enough away from every thing you listed, take a look at the Aleutian Islands.... LOL


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

LongRider said:


> It is not the first time that I have heard that opinion. Which is pretty contrary to our experience and I wonder what folks make that assumption. For the most part out homestead is a one man operation


From a purely operational and sustainability aspect, you are correct. The response TC556 gave would weigh with a great portion of the population, but as you have shown there are always others who do not "need" a "society".

In this scenario I had also also assumed one would have to stop what they are doing (task-wise) that makes the homestead function, to go pick up a weapon and fend off intruders/marauders (in number, not just one or two). If under siege, intruders can distract you enough that the daily tasks you still manage to accomplish don't add up to enough to keep the homestead functional.


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

Cool, a house built into a mountainside!! I have always wanted, one, and I have also wanted a straw bale home. Better yet, convert a found cave into a home!


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## EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER (Sep 24, 2012)

HoppeEL4 said:


> Cool, a house built into a mountainside!! I have always wanted, one, and I have also wanted a straw bale home. Better yet, convert a found cave into a home!


Im planning on making one that has lots of rooms and im gona sell the rooms to anyone without a criminal record.


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## tc556guy (Apr 28, 2011)

cnsper said:


> One name... Dick Proeneke
> 
> How did all the people that moved west in the 1800's survive then when their house was out in the middle of nowhere? They also had bands of marauders to contend with.. i.e. Indians, outlaws. And they had to defend themselves when the attacks came, not when help arrived. Yet they persevered.
> 
> ...


There were a lot of people who couldn't handle doing it on their own.

I think we also tend to over-romanticize the degree to which people 'did it alone". The mountain men, for instance, seem to be thought of as guys who did it alone when actually they didn't. Over the years I've read of people on the frontier who simply couldn't handle the solitude of the frontier.

As for your last point, the frontier has always been a pressure release valve for the malcontents and anti-social types of society who couldn't stand to live by the rules of general society. I suppose there are still ways of getting away from the bulk of societal restrictions. There was a video a while back on the survival boards of an older couple who still get by without electricity or much social interaction with others. It can be done if you want to go to that extreme....


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## EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER (Sep 24, 2012)

tc556guy said:


> There were a lot of people who couldn't handle doing it on their own.
> 
> I think we also tend to over-romanticize the degree to which people 'did it alone". The mountain men, for instance, seem to be thought of as guys who did it alone when actually they didn't. Over the years I've read of people on the frontier who simply couldn't handle the solitude of the frontier.
> 
> As for your last point, the frontier has always been a pressure release valve for the malcontents and anti-social types of society who couldn't stand to live by the rules of general society. I suppose there are still ways of getting away from the bulk of societal restrictions. There was a video a while back on the survival boards of an older couple who still get by without electricity or much social interaction with others. It can be done if you want to go to that extreme....


Idk what im gona do exactly....... I cant live in a community cuz i hate ppl...... But i also hate being by myself for long periods of time....


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## stephengrem (Oct 18, 2012)

pandamonium said:


> At the risk of hijacking this thread, for me, the intent is NOT to bug out to this area and live there for the rest of my life. The intent is to go where the people are NOT, untill the worst of the shtf is over.
> 
> I am well aware of what it takes to survive in an area like this for a while. I am not new to the experience.
> 
> ...


 Get a sailboat, fishing pole, BBQ, and water purification. 
Sail out of reach/sight of shore and sail south to warmer weather ( since fire and boat don't usually like each other.)


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## tc556guy (Apr 28, 2011)

EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER said:


> Idk what im gona do exactly....... I cant live in a community cuz i hate ppl...... But i also hate being by myself for long periods of time....


You hate ALL people?


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

tc556guy said:


> You hate ALL people?


He won't be able to answer because he is banned. 
I think he meant to say he hates spending a lot of his time with people, and when he does it is a select few.


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