# FBI blasts Apple, Google for locking police out of phones



## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

Whaa...Whaa... The mean tech companies decided to make it harder for us to illegally search phones....

A court order, a warrant, can force someone to unlock their phone, and if they don't they can be put in jail for contempt...until they do, so this really isn't about legal warrants...as in the type that state grounds for the search and can be fought in court if those grounds are false!

Process = transparency = rule of law = possibility for a free society!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...c4e08e-4344-11e4-9a15-137aa0153527_story.html


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## Sparky_D (Jun 3, 2013)

> He said he could not understand why companies would "market something expressly to allow people to place themselves beyond the law."


Yet he's fine with Law Enforcement operating outside the law?

Oh the hypocrisy...


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## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

/sarcasm font

If you have nothing to fear you have no fear of...

Wait a sec...

If you do not fear... no...' If you DO nothing to fear...

Not it either...

I Fear no evil....

No not that one...


Sheesh... There have been SO many!

OH!! Hiding stuff!! That's the tickler...

If I hide thing..... No..

If nothing I hide....

Getting close...

If I have nothing to Hide, I have nothing to hide?

That sounds pretty close...

If I have nothing to hide, I have to hide nothing from someone looking for everything...

Damn...

I KNOW it is something like that!!!

Bottom line...

It for your own good, for the good of the children, if we do not so this, the terrorists win.

/Sarcasm font off


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

I personally don't understand the article at all. We have a computer guy with more cables, machines and software then RadioShack & BestBuy. When iOS 8 came out the first thing we did was test his software on an iPhone updated with the newest operating system. He was able to "break" it and access all the data without a whole lot of effort. I'm not sure why it has created such a barrier for the FBI. You would think that their computer crimes division would make ours look outdated. My guess is that this was somehow politically motivated comments or some kind of misinformation for the people. "Go ahead and do illegal stuff on your updated iPhone because we won't be able to get at it (insert evil laugh here)".


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Sentry18 said:


> I personally don't understand the article at all. We have a computer guy with more cables, machines and software then RadioShack & BestBuy. When iOS 8 came out the first thing we did was test his software on an iPhone updated with the newest operating system. He was able to "break" it and access all the data without a whole lot of effort.


iOS8 and android are using 256 AES encryption (what blackberry has used for years), the same level that is approved by the U.S government for "Top Secret" classified information. Used properly, this encryption is incredibly difficult (near impossible) for any government or agency in the world to beat. The only feasible way to "easily" get in is with weak passwords, backdoors, or flaws in the hardware/software on the device (not by breaking the encryption).

Apple has taken this move and publicity because it has been the worst in security for a long time (and with the latest leaks). Give your computer guy an iphone (iOS8) with encryption enabled and a decent password/pin and turn it off before giving it to him. I am somewhat doubtful that he will find it "easy" even with my extreme lack of faith in Apple.

Importantly though, this does not mean that texts, emails, etc are in any way more secure, because those are going through servers to get to you. It only means that what is stored on the phone will be encrypted. The only way to get around that is to actually use encrypted forms of communication such as with BBM protected (for example) or something like a secusmart card that encrypts everything (including calls).


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

That may be but the software suite that we have currently for defeating smart phone / tablet encryption seemingly walked right through it. Considering how much we paid (and pay) for it I would've expected nothing less. Perhaps it needs the hardware technology of the iPhone 6 to actually make it secure. We tested it on an iPhone 5s.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Sentry18 said:


> That may be but the software suite that we have currently for defeating smart phone / tablet encryption seemingly walked right through it. Considering how much we paid (and pay) for it I would've expected nothing less. Perhaps it needs the hardware technology of the iPhone 6 to actually make it secure. We tested it on an iPhone 5s.


There was/is a known vulnerability with iOS that can be remedied by turning the phone off (before the attack is made). I think that if encryption was enabled and a good password/pin chosen, and the phone was turned off prior to the tech receiving it then it wouldn't matter if it was a 5s or 6.

Apple has always been terrible with security though, so there may be other vulnerabilities inherent to the phones.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

It's also possible that law enforcement (or at least the NSA) can still eavesdrop. There's a good chance the protest is all for show.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Control, it's all about control, wait until somebody figures out brainwave scanner/decoders, then look out for the thought police. ..............

Law inforcement still needs to follow the rules, and get warrants, but those who are responsible for issuing warrants need to do so honestly and promptly.


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## Ozarker (Jul 29, 2014)

I'm no techie, I still use a flip phone, I don't text, I talk on it.

So, how is that China can shut down any internet traffic that hits their border?

Then why can't we shut down key word sites? 

Of course the HSA is watching and listening.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Ozarker said:


> So, how is that China can shut down any internet traffic that hits their border?
> 
> Then why can't we shut down key word sites?


Rule of Law? :dunno:


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## frankd4 (Oct 22, 2010)

There is nothing that the NSA cannot get in to; we take the batteries out of our phones when we go to our BOL and use burner phones only in case of emergency. You can use PSK31 with PGP encryption with a sixty four bit pin this works and is very hard to crack if you change the PIN every 24 hours, this method was put in to place by a retired ex NSA analyst in our group, be aware that encryption on HAM radio is illegal as per the FCC so proceed with caution.


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## jnrdesertrats (Jul 3, 2010)

frankd4 said:


> There is nothing that the NSA cannot get in to; we take the batteries out of our phones when we go to our BOL and use burner phones only in case of emergency. You can use PSK31 with PGP encryption with a sixty four bit pin this works and is very hard to crack if you change the PIN every 24 hours, this method was put in to place by a retired ex NSA analyst in our group, be aware that encryption on HAM radio is illegal as per the FCC so proceed with caution.


You must be a very interesting group of people to think the NSA is going through all that trouble to see what you are doing. Altho if they weren't watching you before you definately have thier attention now.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

jnrdesertrats said:


> You must be a very interesting group of people to think the NSA is going through all that trouble to see what you are doing. Altho if they weren't watching you before you definately have thier attention now.


I'm pretty sure the NSA wouldn't need those giant data centers if they weren't recording every second of every phone conversation and every byte of data sent over the internet.


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## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

Duplicate post, sorry.


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## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

jnrdesertrats said:


> You must be a very interesting group of people to think the NSA is going through all that trouble to see what you are doing. Altho if they weren't watching you before you definately have thier attention now.


We already know they are doing it, it is no longer a conspiracy theory. They have the ability to track, capture and store all that data (or meta data if you prefer).

I believe the choke point is in what to do with all that data now that they have it. Not only is it a lot of forms of data, it is a ton of different formats of data.

Sure they grab it store it away, but how to search through it looking for something specific? Example: They want to find out what Woodrow W. Woodchuck has been up to this past year. They HAVE the data... somewhere. First go through phone data. Do you search by phone #, name, account #? What fields are on the table the data is stored in? Phone number, easy right? That HAS to be a major field!! Ok, what is the field formatted as, text or numeric or Phone Number? Is it stored as 1234567890 or 123-456-7890 or 123 456 7890 or 123.456.7890? What program was used to create and store the data? Do we have a program to convert that to what we use? Will it convert cleanly?

Ok, got the phone data, now they need to compare it to.... something else from Woodrow, or gather more info on him. Does the data now being searched, have a phone # with it as a field? Ok, pull it by name or address. Now they have that data also. Let's compare them, to bring them together so we can search it all. Let's use name, both tables of data have that field! What is it formatted as? Text? Ok, easy then. Wait... Is it all in one field such as <last first middle> or <first last middle> or <last,first,middle> or three fields <last> <first> <middle>?

I hope you see where I am going. I was involved in several major integrations where one company bought another and we had to convert the data in one to match the system in the other. We were only dealing with 500,000 to 2,000,000 accounts with each one and were only dealing with converting ONE system to another one. It was a loooOOoong process. Convert, find the fallout, investigate why they didn't convert, fix the problem, try again..... You still end up with a lot of fallout for one reason or another that has to be dealt with one at a time.

With our beloved DHS they are taking data from many different sources (in many languages also!) and trying to put them into one searchable database or form. THEN... all the different agencies have to have it available to the programs they use! Remember, this is our government. You KNOW the CIA uses a different program than the FBI which is different from DHS which is different from TSA......... Just think back, in recent history, to the trouble they had taking data entered into ONE form (Health care website) and trying to make it available to all the different agencies. They all needed different fields, and all formatted differently!!! I would have LOVED to do QA on that project!! LOL!!! Job security for sure!


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

Surely you're aware that the US and the UK have an intelligence sharing agreement.
Since the early 70s, the UK (through the GCHQ) has recorded *every* phone conversation in the US. It's how the intelligence agencies in both countries got around laws restricting them from spying on their own citizens. In the UK, the US does the spying. The funny part is the US paid for the GCHQ facility here while the GCHQ paid for the facility in the UK. Since they share the data, the effect is the same as if the US was spying on its own citizens.

With the Patriot Act er the Big Brother Act, the spying has expanded.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

jnrdesertrats said:


> You must be a very interesting group of people to think the NSA is going through all that trouble to see what you are doing. Altho if they weren't watching you before you definately have thier attention now.


Coming from the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia, Ignorance is bliss. Kind of like no one needs to carry a gun everyday another Peoples Republic of Kalifornia myth. Obviously you missed that the poster was discussing his BOL group where OPSEC is everything and could cost lives if preached. Meaning better safe than sorry. Maybe his group is below the radar today but if the day comes that any member of his group becomes of interest, every phone call every key stroke on the internet can be instantly retrieved. Of course feel free to do as you wish your loved ones safety and well being.


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## william6697 (Feb 20, 2015)

cowboyhermit said:


> iOS8 and android are using 256 AES encryption (what blackberry has used for years), the same level that is approved by the U.S government for "Top Secret" classified information. Used properly, this encryption is incredibly difficult (near impossible) for any government or agency in the world to beat. The only feasible way to "easily" get in is with weak passwords, backdoors, or flaws in the hardware/software on the device (not by breaking the encryption).
> 
> Apple has taken this move and publicity because it has been the worst in security for a long time (and with the latest leaks). Give your computer guy an iphone (iOS8) with encryption enabled and a decent password/pin and turn it off before giving it to him. I am somewhat doubtful that he will find it "easy" even with my extreme lack of faith in Apple.
> 
> Importantly though, this does not mean that texts, emails, etc are in any way more secure, because those are going through servers to get to you. It only means that what is stored on the phone will be encrypted. The only way to get around that is to actually use encrypted forms of communication such as with BBM protected (for example) or something like a secusmart card that encrypts everything (including calls).


current TS traffic is 2048 encrypted with 3 layers of security at 256, 256, 2048... anyways.. nothing is "unbreakable".. one time pads are sorta, but thats assuming the pad isnt compromised... if you are worried about the secruity of your "stuff".. dont put it on anything on a network.. if its stand alone and you can deadman it, its reasonably secure... but every cell phone and email is childs play for a determined "entity" to get into. In the US, GB, AU, CA, country XXX.. anything we see on the "news" or on 99.99% of forums isnt truly secure


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