# How long does gasoline stay good?



## vic92

We loaded up on gas for the hurricane and it doesn't look like we will need it. But living here we are obviously pron to hurricanes but I'm wondering how long it will last. May be a dumb question.


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## OldCootHillbilly

Use a fuel stabilizer on it an personally I'd go six months. It might keep longer, but I hate fuel system problems. So six month's just be me.

Now that ya got it an obviously in containers, just use it an keep refillin the containers. Then ya got a fresh supply. Just my two copper worth.


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## Sentry18

I follow the 6 month rule as well, with the addition of some Sta-Bil or Sea Foam. Just make sure you are not storing it in your home, an attached garage, etc. If you are then I would start putting it in your car until you use it up.


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## vic92

I have one that is older than that I know. How should I dispose of it? I don't want to pour it in the grass or anything.


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## Sentry18

While this may not the _correct_ thing to do, when I have older gas I always just mix in some sea foam and some new gas and use it anyway. Unless we're talking like 5 year old gas or something.


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## Saiga308

vic92 said:


> I have one that is older than that I know. How should I dispose of it? I don't want to pour it in the grass or anything.


Most communities have a designated place where they accept paint, fuel, tires, oil etc. call your town hall or county commissioner's office.


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## EarlyPrepper

I use StarTron marine fuel enzyme stabilizer. Keeps the ethanol from phase separation for a year. When the gas gets to be 9-10 months old, I dump it on one of my vehicles and then refill the store.

It is more economical to buy it in the larger volumes, I buy the gallon jug. Treats over 2,000 gallons and stays good for years by itself. I always over treat the fuel with StarTron.

Vehicle and generator fuel is key for short term mobility and electricity needs. I keep enough to fuel my generator for 4 weeks on 4-6 hour cycles, along with enough to fill 2 vehicles (albeit, we have a 1/2 tank rule on the cars). Also gives range if the need to evac/BO occurs.


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## Viking

The only fuel I store is non alcohol and it's mainly for chainsaw, weedeater and generator. Using Sta-Bil I've had up to two year old fuel which still smelled fresh, usually when fuel starts to go bad you'll get a strong varnish smell. I will say that where I store my fuel the temperature stays evenly cool. As long as the old stored fuel doesn't have the varnish smell just mix it in with at least a half tank of fresh fuel, I doubt old fuel mixed that way will reduce power all that much.


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## hiwall

I use Sea Foam but down here in the summer heat you can not store it very long(maybe if you bury it). Easy enough to rotate though.


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## mowgli

*Agree whole heartedly*

++++ on the stabilizer and mixing with fresh gas. Give yourself a better start on the process by buying premium gas to begin with- your small engines will thank you...


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## SierraM37

Ok, this all sounds like good advice. What about the container itself? Jerry can, plastic 5 gallon?


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## zombieresponder

SierraM37 said:


> Ok, this all sounds like good advice. What about the container itself? Jerry can, plastic 5 gallon?


The genuine military Jerry cans have a good seal, so when you close it, it's closed. Air/moisture can't get in. Plastic cans don't seal that well, so moisture can condense inside the cans and contaminate the fuel. That being said, I've run untreated, year old fuel that was stored in plastic cans without any issues. If you rotate the stored fuel regularly, it's probably not going to sit for all that long.


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## LincTex

zombieresponder said:


> That being said, I've run untreated, year old fuel that was stored in plastic cans without any issues.


My 20 year old Ford Ranger will run fine on old gas mixed with new gas. I won't use 1-year-old gas in the small engines, though. They get fresh gas only (less than 1 month)


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## zombieresponder

I don't like using the ethanol crap at all in my mower/saw/etc., but it's about all we've got around here. I haven't bothered mixing new with old, but it's probably a good idea. I try to keep all my stuff tuned up and in good repair. That said, the last time I ran my generator it refused to run with the choke off so I guess I'll be putting in another $5 carb kit. 

Oh, for anyone that doesn't know, you can get factory repair manuals directly from Briggs and Stratton. There are several different manuals depending on engine type and when it was made. I think they were about $20 the last time I looked. Some stuff has changed from the older engines to the new OHV designs, so be sure to get the right one. I don't know if factory manuals are available from any of the other manufacturers though.


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## LincTex

zombieresponder said:


> That said, the last time I ran my generator it refused to run with the choke off so I guess I'll be putting in another $5 carb kit.


You need to clean the main jet out with a torch tip cleaning tool.

Just clean it - don't ream it to the next size larger! (it has been done before)


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## zombieresponder

Yeah, I know it's probably just trash stuck in the jet. Replacing the needle and seat + bowl gasket is just standard procedure for me when I have to take one apart. Bad thing is, the ethanol attacts moisture, so stuff is lots more likely to have corrosion issues now.  If I remember correctly, this one had a lot of oxidation and corrosion in it the first time I rebuilt it. The thing that really upsets me is that _none_ of the carb rebuild kits are rated for ethanol fuel, or at least none that I've found.


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## Viking

zombieresponder said:


> Yeah, I know it's probably just trash stuck in the jet. Replacing the needle and seat + bowl gasket is just standard procedure for me when I have to take one apart. Bad thing is, the ethanol attacts moisture, so stuff is lots more likely to have corrosion issues now.  If I remember correctly, this one had a lot of oxidation and corrosion in it the first time I rebuilt it. The thing that really upsets me is that _none_ of the carb rebuild kits are rated for ethanol fuel, or at least none that I've found.


 I've not tried to find kits rated for ethanol but I'm sure they are around. I know that just changing to nitrile fuel hoses can help, I'm just thankful that the outdoor power sports people pushed a bill through here in Oregon so that we can buy non alcohol fuel at a fair amount of gas stations at prices that are quite a bit less than racing fuel.


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## ZoomZoom

The only thing I can add that hasn't been touted on too hard is to use a "one for two" rule of thumb.

When dealing with E10 (10% Ethanol) gas I made this little rule for myself. Once I buy it, what it can go in changes over time.
Cylinders to months - After that time, use cautiously and don't leave any in the tank, fuel line or carb (run it dry)
1 cylinder = 2 months
2 cylinders = 4 months
3 cyls, 6 months
...
After a year, it only goes in one of the V6 or V8 engines and even then, it's run with a ratio of new gas included.

Speaking of draining the fuel lines, carb... I do it in any engine that won't be run again within a month.


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## simpleguy

When storing gas with ethanol I only use Stabil designed for ethanol. Seafoam is great for running in gas to help clean the junk out of a carb, but it will not keep the gas as good as stabil.....this is from my own personal experience. You can find stabil in the boating section of most big box stores


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## Jimmy24

I typically have 50 gallons stored for 'cane season. I buy it in the early spring, March usually. I only buy premium ethanol free gasoline. There are several around here who sell it. It is at a preimum price I might add. Usually 15-25 cents a gallon higher...but worth it. I treat it with Stabil. 

I keep this till the end of October. That gives me the winter to use it up buy March or so. It has never given me any problems. Gas treated this way, IMHO, will give you fuel for whatever for at least a year. I have had some treated this way go nearly 2 years with no issues.

Add the ethanol to it and throw my experince out the door. Just remember the old addage of sugar in the gas tank.....pretty much the same results.

Jimmy


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## longtime

I have a natural gas/gasoline generator. I am set up to run on natural gas. About one or two years ago during one of my monthly check, I noticed that I still had gasoline in the tank. I assume that I left a full tank of gas in the generator when I set it up for natural gas, that was over two years. This generator is in an unheated/uncooled shed. The tank was about 50% full and vented. The worse possible storage conditions with 50% evaporated. I started the generator on natural gas to warm it up. Shut it down and restarted it on the old gas. It started right up and I loaded it to 50%. This gas smelled like varnish, very old, but it worked ok in the generator. (the reason I could start the generator after all this time is that I always shut off the fuel and allow it to run dry, no gas in the carb.)

I always buy about 600 gals of gas in the spring before prices go up. I normally use it all by next spring. I use this gas in a modern engine, no problems.


Gas deteriorates with time! But everyone is way over thinking this issure.

If you have 6 month old gas just use it!


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## faithmarie

Wow where do you store your gas? We use a marine gas stabilizer ... stuff of some kind and then kerosine in the diesel fuel.


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## LincTex

longtime said:


> The worse possible storage conditions with 50% evaporated. ... Shut it down and restarted it on the old gas. It started right up and I loaded it to 50%. This gas smelled like varnish, very old,


Be careful - that varnish has a bad tendency to glue your intake valve to the valve guide... and also affects how the valve guide is lubricated. IF you do that again, make sure you run some fresh gas through it to "rinse off" the intake valve stem.

Also - if you haven't already done so, you need to run some fresh gas through the carb to clean the varnish out, or your inlet needle will be stuck "wide open" and the float will be stuck to the bottom of the float bowl.


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## Theriot

You need to check your local and federal laws. There was a law passed in 1929 that makes it illegal to store more then a few containers of fuel.


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## LincTex

Theriot said:


> You need to check your local and federal laws.


Every city I know of honors Federal DOT transport rules of one 55 gallon container.

Farms/rural areas everywhere have these, no permit required:


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## Theriot

My bad it's a Uk law. Damn fine print. Lol


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## VUnder

I get gas out of old junk cars and put it in a drum. I run it all the time in fuel injected vehicles, the pump just pushes it on through. I usually don't put it in the carb equipped engines. Some of it is almost black, but I mix a little fresh with it and head out. I save burnt motor oil and run my diesel engines on that. Sometimes it is almost straight black motor oil, but it goes just fine. Used to be that gas was good and lasted for years. I try to avoid all alcohol. They say it is ten percent ethanol, but I have taken tanks off to replace pumps, and it was almost pure alcohol, smelled like whiskey instead of gas.


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## machinist

I have a farm tank and use from it continuously, refilling whenit gets down 1/3 to 1/2 full. I add a quart of Sta-Bil when we refill. Never completely drained the tank, and never had a problem of any kind over many years. I do have a moisture trap filter on it that gets drained once a month or so, but never has any water in it. We have done this sort of process for 30+ years with farm tanks and never had a problem. 

I have come to believe that the big problem with storing gasoline is high and low temps, varying, that cause condensation and also tends to evaporate higher fractions. Larger tanks have less temp variation because of the thermal mass, so less problems.


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## The_Blob

RANGER_SURVIVALIST said:


> How long does fuel last in AK?


Due to the cold, gasoline has to be aged for 20 years there before it can be used, maybe a little less if you mix it with sugar first - that's why it's so expensive in AK. :factor10:


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## CapnJack

The_Blob said:


> Due to the cold, gasoline has to be aged for 20 years there before it can be used, maybe a little less if you mix it with sugar first - that's why it's so expensive in AK. :factor10:


Precisely.


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## RoadRash

I try to refill cans every 3-4 weeks 8 months out of the year I use it in motorcycles, winter storeage is 4 months with stablizer added also to motorcycles, all gas powered equipment that does not run in winter also get stabilizer. I Try to never let fuel gauge go below 1/4 usually top up at the half point. Never good to let car suck from bottom of tank.


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## LincTex

I have a line up on a couple more old propane tanks to store gasoline in:

http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f16/steel-containers-storing-gasoline-461/index2.html


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## Dawgbone

I have two 100 gallon alum tanks off a 18 wheeler along with five 7 gallon plastic containers made for kerosene or water. I use Stabil gas treatment at 1 once per 2.5 gallons. I decided to "test" Stabil's performance within the five 7gal containers.

I've been doing this for years and here are my results from the 7 gal containers:

1-year: No change in color or smell. Runs fine

1.5 years: Very slight orange hue but no change in smell. Runs fine.

2 years: Darker orange hue but no change in smell. Runs fine.

3 years: Gas is now discolored and has a slight varnish smell. Runs fine.

4 year: Gas discolored, stronger varnish smell. Runs but with intermient (slight misfiring). Mixed 50/50 with 2 yr gas and all misfiring stopped.

5 year: Gas very discolored, strong smell. Runs but poorly. Mixed 50/50 with 1.5 year gas and runs fine

Thus far I've found that mixing old properly stored gas with fresher properly stored gas is a good solution


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## Viking

It helps to run a bit of Marvel Mystery Oil in the fuel tank as well, it cuts through carbon build up helps lube the valve stems and may cut through any varnish build up in the intake runners. Every once and awhile I run a cap full through the carb and almost always the idle rpm raises quite a bit.


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## Tweto

The_Blob said:


> Due to the cold, gasoline has to be aged for 20 years there before it can be used, maybe a little less if you mix it with sugar first - that's why it's so expensive in AK. :factor10:


Bleach works better then sugar.


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## LongRider

vic92 said:


> We loaded up on gas for the hurricane and it doesn't look like we will need it. But living here we are obviously pron to hurricanes but I'm wondering how long it will last. May be a dumb question.


To the best of my understanding not long enough to be of real value in any real TEOTWAWKI scenario. You may be able to store adequate amounts for a short term SHTF scenario six months, a year or so. Provided you ration it and use very sparingly. I could be mistaken, but I know I never use last years untreated gas. As it is too easy to gum up your engine and really foul things up. Nor is it practical to store large quantities of gas, again I could be mistaken but I do not know anyone who has thousands of gallons of gas stored. But it is easy to store a thousand gallons of propane in a couple of tanks.

Which is why we converted all of our essential internal combustion engines to propane. We can easily store several thousand gallons and it does not appear to go bad ever. Provided I have enough stored I will have fuel ten, twenty, thirty years from now that is perfectly useable long after gas, kerosene and diesel have turned into varnish or gel.


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## LincTex

LongRider said:


> To the best of my understanding not long enough to be of real value in any real TEOTWAWKI scenario. You may be able to store adequate amounts for a short term SHTF scenario six months, a year or so. Provided you ration it and use very sparingly.


My gasoline is spiked with sta-bil and stored under pressure (no oxygen) in an "out of service" propane tank. I have enough to use in the rototiller and chainsaw and some occasional motorcycle use for maybe three years TOPS, and that is indeed sparingly. That is what I call the _"adjustment period"_.

Also have diesel enough for a small tractor, pickup, generator, and water pump. Will be mixing it with used oil to make it go a little further. Again, three years tops.

If we are TRULY to be without *ANY* additional supplies of refined petroleum fuels for three years, we will be in a completely different WORLD after three years!


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## ldmaster

The issue with gasoline is that the more volatile compounds, I.e. ether, benzene will evaporate out of solution. Gasoline is NOT a stable substance. Best stored in as cool a place and if possible under pressure. Also you should not attempt to store " winter formula" gasoline as its even less stable. Always purchase stores during summer months 

Again it is not going to "gum up" a motor to use older gasoline STABIL type products help bind volatile fractions to a higher degree but will deteriorate fast depending on storage conditions you are only SLOWING. The inevitable separation of the gasoline solution


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## LincTex

ldmaster said:


> The issue with gasoline is that the more volatile compounds, I.e. ether, benzene will evaporate out of solution. Gasoline is NOT a stable substance. Best stored in as cool a place and if possible under pressure. ...depending on storage conditions you are only SLOWING.


That's why I figure if I can keep the oxygen away from it and store it under pressure, it should last as long as propane does. The hydrocarbon molecules are all really the same, the only variables are oxygen and pressure. It should store as long as propane does.


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## LongRider

LincTex said:


> Also have diesel enough for a small tractor, pickup, generator, and water pump. Will be mixing it with used oil to make it go a little further. Again, three years tops.
> 
> If we are TRULY to be without *ANY* additional supplies of refined petroleum fuels for three years, we will be in a completely different WORLD after three years!


Essential equipment truck tractor generator, back up heat and cooking is what we have converted to propane because that is our plan to be prepared for long term collapse or permanent collapse of the infrastructure. Propane does not appear to have an expiration date, easier to store and it is a lot easier on your equipment. Less need for repairs and spare parts. Of course alternative sources of energy solar and wind are going to get into the mix. Actually my weakest link at this juncture for us to maintain our current standard of living. That is the standard we are working towards to be able to live as we do now no matter what happens in the world around us. Of course there are some givens in that equation such as not being able to travel freely as we do now but we should be able to enjoy a nice prime rib dinner, with a good drink and a movie after a hot bath or soak in the hot tub 20 or 30 years after the grid goes down. I am way to old to be hunkered down in some cave playing Rambo eating grubs.


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## LincTex

LongRider said:


> Propane .... easier to store


I have to disagree with you there...

Propane *must* be stored in VERY specialized containers (i.e., no Jerry cans or old oil drums) and it must also be transferred from one specialized container to another very carefully (you can't just pour it down a funnel).

I had a neighbor growing up with a J Deere 105 combine on propane, and it was a pain in the butt to deal with the special fuel tank "dolly" (only one on the farm) and also having to make sure someone in town was around to be able to have it filled. The rest of us just hauled gas around in 5 gallon cans.

I like propane as a cooking fuel.
If the infrastructure was right (meaning the whole set-up at your place) is good, it has advantages, but unless you have everything already it is a big start-up cost, you STILL have to find a guy who will deliver it...
(no going to get some yourself unless u have 100lb tanks... but the PRICE to fill those! $79 here) 
...and at a decent price (and not have a 400 gallon minimum) and doesn't beotch if your tanks are past the mandatory 12 year inspection date.

It used to be propane was a refinery "waste" product. A lot of old tractors around here are set up to run on propane because it used to cost 8 cents a gallons 50 years ago.... but now, if you want a 100 lb bottle filled it costs $79 and that for only 23 gallons... $3.44 a gallon. The truck cdrivers that do refills are guys that look really really hard to find fault with your tanks, valves, lines, etc. and give you a hard time about any piddly little thing. I can drive to the gas station and fill a 55 gallon drum and no one says a word. Gallon for gallon, gasoline will have a lot more BTU's than propane, so you can get more work per gallon.

Diesel is even better, of course. I like diesel for a lot of reasons and would have everything I own be diesel powered if I could. I look at third world South Eastern Asian countries and see how they do things, and the next step up from a water buffalo is a diesel powered rice paddy "walking tractor". No gasoline or propane... they run their diesels on vegetable oils. How they live their everyday lives is what we would consider TEOTWAWKI here.


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## LongRider

LincTex said:


> I have to disagree with you there...
> 
> Propane *must* be stored in VERY specialized containers (i.e., no Jerry cans or old oil drums) and it must also be transferred from one specialized container to another very carefully (you can't just pour it down a funnel).
> 
> I had a neighbor growing up with a J Deere 105 combine on propane, and it was a pain in the butt to deal with the special fuel tank "dolly" (only one on the farm) and also having to make sure someone in town was around to be able to have it filled. The rest of us just hauled gas around in 5 gallon cans.
> 
> I like propane as a cooking fuel.
> If the infrastructure was right (meaning the whole set-up at your place) is good, it has advantages, but unless you have everything already it is a big start-up cost, you STILL have to find a guy who will deliver it...
> (no going to get some yourself unless u have 100lb tanks... but the PRICE to fill those! $79 here)
> ...and at a decent price (and not have a 400 gallon minimum) and doesn't beotch if your tanks are past the mandatory 12 year inspection date.
> 
> It used to be propane was a refinery "waste" product. A lot of old tractors around here are set up to run on propane because it used to cost 8 cents a gallons 50 years ago.... but now, if you want a 100 lb bottle filled it costs $79 and that for only 23 gallons... $3.44 a gallon. The truck cdrivers that do refills are guys that look really really hard to find fault with your tanks, valves, lines, etc. and give you a hard time about any piddly little thing. I can drive to the gas station and fill a 55 gallon drum and no one says a word. Gallon for gallon, gasoline will have a lot more BTU's than propane, so you can get more work per gallon.
> 
> Diesel is even better, of course. I like diesel for a lot of reasons and would have everything I own be diesel powered if I could. I look at third world South Eastern Asian countries and see how they do things, and the next step up from a water buffalo is a diesel powered rice paddy "walking tractor". No gasoline or propane... they run their diesels on vegetable oils. How they live their everyday lives is what we would consider TEOTWAWKI here.


You are right about start up costs. Which is an expense. We have three 500 gallon tanks as I recall they were about $1k each, installed. But a lot of propane companies will give you tanks to use as long as you buy your propane from them, with a minimal annual purchase. Either way if the supplier does not like the tanks they can replace them out of their pocket. You can get the hose to fill smaller tanks for about $300. Than it is no big deal to fill those smaller portable tanks. I suggest aluminum tanks for your portable tanks as they last forever without issue. I do not see it any harder than humping around jerry cans of gas and I only have to step outside to do it not go to the gas station.

As far as supply as long as they keep gas stations open I expect they will deliver my propane. But of course the reason I try to keep 1,500 gallons on site is for when they no longer deliver. To me having three hopefully four (soon) propane tanks is a lot less hassle and less hazards than having 30 to 50 fifty gallon drums of gas laying around. Plus I still do not understand how you can store gas for years, while propane will last forever.

We've talked about home security what if a bullet hits one of those fifty gallon drums? Contrary to what I have seen in the movies bullets do not cause propane tanks to ignite or explode. At least not when I have tried it with both full and partially filled tanks. The pressure inside is so high that it simply blows propane out of the tank. If for some reason it did ignite it would just burn on the outside. As it was explained to me in order for it to explode it would need to ignite inside of the tank and the nature of the tanks and propane does not make that possible. You would need to put a blasting cap inside the tank to make it explode. If you are really concerned, having aluminum tanks provide some extra comfort as aluminum does not spark.

Propane has an average octane of 150. It burns cleaner and hotter than gas so I am not sure what you mean by you get more work out of gas. My 350 Chevy truck used to get about 14 mpg. With propane it is closer to 23mpg and the engine life will be ten times of that of a gas engine. Have you ever changed the oil in a propane engine? It is as clear as the new oil you are replacing it with. My generator seems to run longer on propane but to be honest it is hard to tell with it hooked up to a 500 gallon tank. I used to live in my Airstream and could run it for a month off of two tanks about $20 back then. Hooked up to electricity it cost me over four times that at a bit over $90 per month. Same with my heating and on demand water heaters. They cost a lot less to run on propane than electricity. I'd hate to see what it would cost me with a gas generator. Propane generally costs 30% less than gas. Less when you buy quantity. Last time I had my tanks filled about two years ago it was $1.29 a gallon. I think it is about $2.75 now still a lot cheaper than $4.30 (the average price of gas here)

I did get a bio diesel kit. It is still new in the shed. After I got it I learned all those places that used to pay to have their used oil hauled away are now charging for it. Raising enough corn or soy to produce your own vegetable oil costs more in fuel and fertilizer than the oil you will get. At least for a small homestead. I am investigating making alcohol with wood chips, grass leaves and other organic matter. As I understand it you can still use the mash to make compost. Much the same way you can use the mash from Ethel (drinking) alcohol as feed for livestock. But I really do not know much of anything about it.


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## Startingout-Blair

LongRider said:


> You are right about start up costs. Which is an expense. We have three 500 gallon tanks as I recall they were about $1k each, installed. But a lot of propane companies will give you tanks to use as long as you buy your propane from them, with a minimal annual purchase. Either way if the supplier does not like the tanks they can replace them out of their pocket. You can get the hose to fill smaller tanks for about $300. Than it is no big deal to fill those smaller portable tanks. I suggest aluminum tanks for your portable tanks as they last forever without issue. I do not see it any harder than humping around jerry cans of gas and I only have to step outside to do it not go to the gas station.
> 
> As far as supply as long as they keep gas stations open I expect they will deliver my propane. But of course the reason I try to keep 1,500 gallons on site is for when they no longer deliver. To me having three hopefully four (soon) propane tanks is a lot less hassle and less hazards than having 30 to 50 fifty gallon drums of gas laying around. Plus I still do not understand how you can store gas for years, while propane will last forever.
> 
> We've talked about home security what if a bullet hits one of those fifty gallon drums? Contrary to what I have seen in the movies bullets do not cause propane tanks to ignite or explode. At least not when I have tried it with both full and partially filled tanks. The pressure inside is so high that it simply blows propane out of the tank. If for some reason it did ignite it would just burn on the outside. As it was explained to me in order for it to explode it would need to ignite inside of the tank and the nature of the tanks and propane does not make that possible. You would need to put a blasting cap inside the tank to make it explode. If you are really concerned, having aluminum tanks provide some extra comfort as aluminum does not spark.
> 
> Propane has an average octane of 150. It burns cleaner and hotter than gas so I am not sure what you mean by you get more work out of gas. My 350 Chevy truck used to get about 14 mpg. With propane it is closer to 23mpg and the engine life will be ten times of that of a gas engine. Have you ever changed the oil in a propane engine? It is as clear as the new oil you are replacing it with. My generator seems to run longer on propane but to be honest it is hard to tell with it hooked up to a 500 gallon tank. I used to live in my Airstream and could run it for a month off of two tanks about $20 back then. Hooked up to electricity it cost me over four times that at a bit over $90 per month. Same with my heating and on demand water heaters. They cost a lot less to run on propane than electricity. I'd hate to see what it would cost me with a gas generator. Propane generally costs 30% less than gas. Less when you buy quantity. Last time I had my tanks filled about two years ago it was $1.29 a gallon. I think it is about $2.75 now still a lot cheaper than $4.30 (the average price of gas here)
> 
> I did get a bio diesel kit. It is still new in the shed. After I got it I learned all those places that used to pay to have their used oil hauled away are now charging for it. Raising enough corn or soy to produce your own vegetable oil costs more in fuel and fertilizer than the oil you will get. At least for a small homestead. I am investigating making alcohol with wood chips, grass leaves and other organic matter. As I understand it you can still use the mash to make compost. Much the same way you can use the mash from Ethel (drinking) alcohol as feed for livestock. But I really do not know much of anything about it really.


I have to disagree about the propane tanks exploding. As kids (little bad a$$es) we took a propane tank off a neighbor's camper and shot it with a .308cal rifle. The explosion just about blew us on our a$$es! Some of the kids went home to change their underwear! Lol


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## LongRider

Startingout-Blair said:


> I have to disagree about the propane tanks exploding. As kids (little bad a$$es) we took a propane tank off a neighbor's camper and shot it with a .308cal rifle. The explosion just about blew us on our a$$es! Some of the kids went home to change their underwear! Lol


How old? Asking to get an idea of perception. What is a huge explosion to a 10 year is not an explosion to an adult. I can see where you might get an explosion like a metal balloon popping but I have never seen an exploding fireball in real life. As I said we did shoot a couple up, likely for the same reason you did


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## Startingout-Blair

LongRider said:


> How old? Asking to get an idea of perception. What is a huge explosion to a 10 year is not an explosion to an adult. I can see where you might get an explosion like a metal balloon popping but I have never seen an exploding fireball in real life. As I said we did shoot a couple up, likely for the same reason you did


Early teens and we did get a huge fireball


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## Tweto

I was a volunteer fireman on a rural department for 20 years and we had a 500 gallon propane tank blow up on us on a winter night at about 2 in the morning. Here's is what happened.

The farmers tool shed was fully engulfed in flames when we got there it had collapsed in to a heap. We went into save the living quarters mode and had all firemen and trucks deluging the house that was only about 30 feet away.

What we did not see was the 500 gallon propane tank that was under all the burning debree from the tool shed. It was mounted 2 feet and parallel at the back wall of the building. 100 feet away from the end of the tank was our firetruck and fireman laying down water to the house. The tank blew-up and the end cap of the tank hit the firetruck hard enough to total the truck. Some how no firmen were hurt. The other end of the tank came off at the same time and we found that 1500 feet out in the middle of a field. 

Propane tanks this size have "pop off" valves on the top and the bottom to relief pressure so that the tanks don't blow-up. But if a tank is heated, as the pressure rises the valves will expel gas in a on-off way. As long as the valve is opening and closing the tank will not explode, but when it is just expelling gas it will be exploding and since fire or flames are heating the tank it does go in a fireball.

Here is the lesson learned. Never mount a propane tank near a building and never mount the tank with the ends pointed at anything you don't want to lose.

On a personal note, my biggest concern about using propane for emergencies is slow leakage. I lost a full 500 gallons over the summer because if a very small leak.


----------



## LongRider

Startingout-Blair said:


> Early teens and we did get a huge fireball


I stand corrected. I may have to redo my experiment. We were very disappointed that none of ours blew up. We used a full tank, a partially filled tank, and an empty not one gave us the desired results.



Tweto said:


> Propane tanks this size have "pop off" valves on the top and the bottom to relief pressure so that the tanks don't blow-up. But if a tank is heated, as the pressure rises the valves will expel gas in a on-off way. As long as the valve is opening and closing the tank will not explode, but when it is just expelling gas it will be exploding and since fire or flames are heating the tank it does go in a fireball.
> 
> Here is the lesson learned. Never mount a propane tank near a building and never mount the tank with the ends pointed at anything you don't want lose.
> 
> On a personal note, my biggest concern about using propane for emergencies is slow leakage. I lost a full 500 gallons over the summer because if a very small leak.


Good point I can see that happening as a result to intense heat exposure I think the closet a tank is allowed near a building is thirty feet here. Also go idea to check your equipment. A periodic pressure test is probably a good idea. Even a pin prick size hole can cause loss.


----------



## Startingout-Blair

LongRider said:


> I stand corrected. I may have to redo my experiment. We were very disappointed that none of ours blew up. We used a full tank, a partially filled tank, and an empty not one gave us the desired results.
> 
> Good point I can see that happening as a result to intense heat exposure I think the closet a tank is allowed near a building is thirty feet here. Also go idea to check your equipment. A periodic pressure test is probably a good idea. Even a pin prick size hole can cause loss.


You should see what happens when an acetylene tank blows up! Wow!!!


----------



## Country Living

LongRider said:


> As far as supply as long as they keep gas stations open I expect they will deliver my propane.


Our propane supplier has a full-fledge disaster preparedness plan so he's farther ahead than most companies. He converted several of his delivery trucks to run on propane and he has a propane-powered generator to run the office to make sure he can stay open for business. He also has the ability to pull propane off the main distribution center instead of waiting for it to be delivered to him.

I understand Tweto's concern about a slow leak. I constantly check the gauge on our tanks because of that same concern. I don't think anyone likes those kind of surprises.


----------



## LincTex

LongRider said:


> But a lot of propane companies will give you tanks to use as long as you buy your propane from them, with a minimal annual purchase.


That is what kills a lot of ideas for storing propane, is the minimum annual purchase. Some people don't use that much each year, so they have to buy their tanks outright to keep from getting charged that annual fee.



LongRider said:


> You can get the hose to fill smaller tanks for about $300. Then it is no big deal to fill those smaller portable tanks.


If you only have 300 gallons stored on site, the price just went up a dollar a gallon. How many people store more than that quantity of ANY fuel? That isn't very cost effective.



LongRider said:


> I suggest aluminum tanks for your portable tanks as they last forever without issue.


I only see those on RV's and even then not common. I have two of them, they are bigger than 20 lb and smaller than 30 lb. Around here most everyone uses steel 20 lb or 30 lb tanks because they are so common. Aluminum tanks are pretty rare.



LongRider said:


> To me having three hopefully four (soon) propane tanks is a lot less hassle and less hazard than having 30 to 50 fifty gallon drums of gas laying around.


I actually like "not having all my eggs in one basket". I have fuel stored in six different geographical locations. Three are local (10 minutes drive or less) and three are further than a 20 minute drive away.I would hate to lose them all at once, but I do not think it is likely that would occur.



LongRider said:


> Plus I still do not understand how you can store gas for years, while propane will last forever.


Well here is how I look at it.... what causes gasoline to go bad? 
Is it because the lighter components evaporate out? (yes)
Is it because oxygen reacts with the fuel to cause varnish? (yes)
Is it because water interacts and causes varnish and residue? (yes)

So, here is how I figure it. Take away the oxygen and water, and then pressurize the fuel so it can't evaporate. If you do all those things, you take away the reason for gasoline to degrade. I can't see how gasoline could go bad... if you take away the reasons why it goes bad.

I actually sampled a small amount of my stored gasoline, and aside from having the tiniest bit of propane smell (ethyl mercaptan) there was absolutely no indication that it was breaking down at all. It looked like the day it went in.



LongRider said:


> We've talked about home security - what if a bullet hits one of those fifty gallon drums?


Nothing would happen. Go out and tip it on it's side so the hole is at the top so it stops running out, and use up that drum first. That is all.



LongRider said:


> Contrary to what I have seen in the movies bullets do not cause propane tanks to ignite or explode.


Same with drums. Growing up with a dad who was a 21B and kept all his field manuals, we tried various containers with various liquid, and even tracers would *NOT* light them off. Makes holes, liquid runs out, no fire. Big disappointment.



LongRider said:


> Propane has an average octane of 150.


Not quite:


> Octane rating of propane is relatively high at 110


 WIKI /Propane



LongRider said:


> It burns cleaner and hotter than gas so I am not sure what you mean by you get more work out of gas.


It is all in the BTU rating. You are the first ever to claim better mileage on propane, all of the hard facts say otherwise. Fuels For Back-Up Generators


> The first thing to understand is the equivalent ratio of energy output for the three fuels as expressed in BTUs, the commonly used unit of energy. The following table will demonstrate:
> Gasoline 1 gallon = 125,000 BTUs
> Natural Gas 1 CCF = 100,015 BTUs (CCF=100 cubic feet)
> Propane 1 gallon = 91,700 BTUs
> 
> You can see from above that 1 gallon of gasoline is more efficient than 100 cubic feet of natural gas or 1 gallon or propane. In fact, the ratio is approximately: 1 gasoline = 1.25 CCF natural gas = 1.36 gallons propane


In other words, you would need 1.36 gallons of propane to produce the equivalent BTUs of 1 gallon of gasoline.

Also, the equipment to run your stuff on propane - tanks and regulators for each vehicle - isn't cheap either.



LongRider said:


> I am investigating making alcohol with wood chips, grass leaves and other organic matter. Much the same way you can use the mash from Ethyl (drinking) alcohol as feed for livestock. But I really do not know much of anything about it.


Is it really hard to make ethanol from cellulose (wood chips and grass) without a lot of specialized enzymes to break the hard starches down into sugars. That is why corn is so popular... lots of free sugar for the yeast to eat on!

All said, I am glad your plans have worked out the way they are, but you have a lot of expense involved in getting where you are at presently, and a LOT of preppers do not have that ability to sacrifice so much money to do the same.

I am only presenting an alternative - being able to store a fuel similar to propane that is stored with all of the benefits of long storage life with none of the specialized equipment. Good propane tanks are still selling for a dollar a gallon around here, so I am looking at $500 for a good propane tank, but I can buy a "decommissioned" 500 gallon tank for $100-$150, suck the air out with a vacuum pump (it takes a long time, I use the suction side of the air compressor) and replace the air with a small amount of propane (just enough to have a very slight vacuum left) and then start pumping gasoline in under pressure. You still have to leave space above the fuel for expansion.


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## LincTex

I had too many tabs open at once... here is a good read from a bunch of old timers (the Generators section on Smokstak) that walk the walk and talk the talk. The nice thing about the Smokstak forum is no falsehoods or lies are tolerated at ALL, so folks that throw BS always get called on it. The years of experience combined are many. Its a good place to learn.

http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38873


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## Tribal Warlord Thug

Viking said:


> It helps to run a bit of Marvel Mystery Oil in the fuel tank as well, it cuts through carbon build up helps lube the valve stems and may cut through any varnish build up in the intake runners. Every once and awhile I run a cap full through the carb and almost always the idle rpm raises quite a bit.


we use MMO to stabilize our fuels....plus we go down to the marina and git the good non-alcohol gas to store....use 2oz of MMO to every 5 gal. of fuel and it will be good for at least 2-3 years....you can add another shot at 1-1/2 years to keep it fresh. have been doing this for generations in our family and never have had any troubles. beware of using seafoam though....it can kill an engine if it has a lot of carbon built up and a catalytic converter.....:beercheer:


----------



## Tribal Warlord Thug

LincTex said:


> I had too many tabs open at once... here is a good read from a bunch of old timers (the Generators section on Smokstak) that walk the walk and talk the talk. The nice thing about the Smokstak forum is no falsehoods or lies are tolerated at ALL, so folks that throw BS always get called on it. The years of experience combined are many. Its a good place to learn.
> 
> http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38873


thanx LincTex.......couldnt remember for the life of me the name of that site.....

thanx again..:beercheer:


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## LincTex

rabidcoyote666 said:


> a catalytic converter.


No emissions regs here, so no cat converter! :beercheer:


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## Tweto

Startingout-Blair said:


> You should see what happens when an acetylene tank blows up! Wow!!!


Acetylene will not blow-up by itself. It will only burn. It needs a oxidizers to blow-up.

If you want have fun with Acetylene/Oxygen then start the torch like your were going to weld, adjust the Oxygen/Acetylene mixture for a neutral flame. If you are not sure what a neutral flame is any good welding book will show you. Then snuff the flame out by pressing the flaming welding tip on to the welding table till all you have is the mixed gas coming out (no flame). Then take a regular kids balloon and fill it up with the mixed gas. and tie it off.

Place the balloon on a safe surface. Use a lite cigarette or something similar touch the balloon. WARNING, HAVE HEAR PROTECTION, IT WILL BE LOUD!!!


----------



## LincTex

Tweto said:


> Then take a regular kids balloon and fill it up with the mixed gas. and tie it off.Use a lite cigarette or something similar touch the balloon. WARNING, HAVE HEAR PROTECTION, IT WILL BE LOUD!!!


I was nearby (20-30 feet) someone did this with a garbage bag. Totally not cool.


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## becky3086

On the propane tanks: I had some friends who threw a small 20 lb one on a bon fire one night. When it blew it took one guys head with it. No, I am not kidding.


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## Tweto

LincTex said:


> I was nearby (20-30 feet) someone did this with a garbage bag. Totally not cool.


When I suggested a balloon, that's what I meant. Even that small can break windows! A garbage bag, that could be very dangerous!


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## Startingout-Blair

Our friends owned a bus garage and used acetylene for welding. On the 4th of July, when we were young, they would fill large balloons with acetylene, tie a cloth wick to the balloon, light it and let it go into the air. When that thing exploded, it light the night sky like daylight and rattled the neighborhood's windows. I was never up close when they did it. Too dangerous


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## Viking

I know this post is highjacked at this point but since Oxy-acetylene go bang has been mentioned I'll have to throw in my fun and games, I'm just happy I didn't get fired for what I did. I used to work in a light fixture factory in Denver and I used to fix the welds that the Tig welder machine messed up and there were sqaure tubes for shelving near by that I would run the gas mix in and then light the torch and set it off. The first time I did it it scared my boss and the other workers half to death, thankfully my boss had a good sense of humor and it was a night shift. Day shift I probably would have been escorted out the door.


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## LongRider

LincTex said:


> That is what kills a lot of ideas for storing propane, is the minimum annual purchase. Some people don't use that much each year, so they have to buy their tanks outright to keep from getting charged that annual fee.


Most folks that use propane for heating cooking use more than enough annually to cover the minimum purchase requirement. If not I think the fee for the tank is about $19 a year, at least that is what I paid for one of the tanks I never had refilled. I bought our tanks so I can price shop and go with whomever gives me the best price



LincTex said:


> LongRider said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can get the hose to fill smaller tanks for about $300. Than it is no big deal to fill those smaller portable tanks.
> 
> 
> 
> If you only have 300 gallons stored on site, the price just went up a dollar a gallon. How many people store more than that quantity of ANY fuel? That isn't very cost effective.
Click to expand...

Sorry you lost me. A great many people have have 200, 300 or 500 gallon propane tanks. When the truck comes around for a refill the price is the same for 100 or 500 gallons. About thirty percent less than at a gas station or filling station that fills the small bottles of 10, 20 or 30 gallons. Some companies might give a discount if you are buying more. I dunno, I have never let my tanks run down enough to have to buy 1,500 gallons at once but I seriously doubt that it is a dollar less per gallon. If there is a company that does please let me know because a dollar off the current rate would bring my fuel price down to .15¢ a gallon.

But I don't know what that has to do with what I was saying about buying the hose to refill your own small tanks off of your main 200 to 500 gallon fuel tanks.



LincTex said:


> I only see those on RV's and even then not common. I have two of them, they are bigger than 20 lb and smaller than 30 lb. Around here most everyone uses steel 20 lb or 30 lb tanks because they are so common. Aluminum tanks are pretty rare..


Exactly. If I was talking about just day to day use the steel tanks are fine. As they are easily replaceable when they rust and wear out. But as we are discussing preps should SHTF the aluminum ones are well worth acquiring as they are virtually indestructible and last forever. While they may be difficult to find now. They will be invaluable when other tanks wear out and can no longer be replaced. My first two came with my Airstream but I did get the rest at an RV supply store.



LincTex said:


> I actually like "not having all my eggs in one basket". I have fuel stored in six different geographical locations. Three are local (10 minutes drive or less) and three are further than a 20 minute drive away.I would hate to lose them all at once, but I do not think it is likely that would occur.


Nothing bad about that at all. Surely one you have up on me as my homestead is the only place I have fuel. My tanks are in different locations based on need but they are all on the same piece of property. As are the rest of my supplies and equipment.



LincTex said:


> Nothing would happen. Go out and tip it on it's side so the hole is at the top so it stops running out, and use up that drum first. That is all.
> 
> Same with drums. Growing up with a dad who was a 21B and kept all his field manuals, we tried various containers with various liquid, and even tracers would *NOT* light them off. Makes holes, liquid runs out, no fire. Big disappointment.


Except that you do end up with flammable liquid exposed that can be ignited and create the scenario of the fuel container being engulfed in flames and exploding as a result of the heat expansion as been noted.



LincTex said:


> Not quite: WIKI /Propane


True My bad typo I meant 105 not 150



LincTex said:


> It is all in the BTU rating. You are the first ever to claim better mileage on propane, all of the hard facts say otherwise. Fuels For Back-Up Generators
> 
> In other words, you would need 1.36 gallons of propane to produce the equivalent BTUs of 1 gallon of gasoline.


That is not really on point or accurate. I do not understand nor really qualified to debate the physics or engineering of BTU, horsepower and MPG. I can only share my actual experience. What I do know it that there no real X BTU = X horsepower formula as there are to many variables. Including as your smokstak.com link indicates different BTU's are required by each fuel to create an equal amount of horsepower. 


smokstak.com said:


> A Diesel takes around 7000 btu to deliver 1 HP. A gas engine uses over 10,000 BTU to make1 HP.


Unfortunately the poster did not post what the BTU to HP ratio for propane is. Though I suspect those equations are best guess assumptions. As I said there are to many other variables. Which is why we can make cars with more horsepower that are more fuel efficient. We must also take into account that many assumptions about propane performance is based upon conversions of gas engines to propane. A conversion will never perform as well as a purpose built engine. A perfect example is you may recall GM original foray into diesel powered cars. They used converted gas engines. They almost destroyed the entire diesel powered market before it started because those engine were crap, that blew heads left and right. Gas engines were never intended to burn diesel. Just as a gas engine converted to propane will never perform as well a purpose built propane engine. This is especially true of carburetor engines that use a propane carburetor to convert a gas engine to propane. The below excerpt from Zonk.com will probably explain it better than I.



> Propane has a bad rap because of some bad conversions and some knee-jerk conclusions drawn from textbook physics.
> First, the dry & boring physics of it all: The exact numbers seem to depend on which authoritative textbook you reference, but on average propane has about 25% less BTUs of energy per gallon than gasoline. So it stands to reason that you'd get 25% less horsepower on propane, all other things being equal. But there's the catch-all other things aren't equal. Liquid gasoline has to be atomized and mixed with air before it can be burned effectively in your engine. Engine builders know that in a carbureted engine a portion of that gasoline doesn't fully atomize and falls out of suspension, ending up in a puddle somewhere in the intake manifold. This is why the cylinders downhill from the carburetor tend to run richer than the others. (It's also one of the reasons why fuel-injected engines are more efficient than carbureted engines.)
> Propane, on the other hand, is a gas, gas, gas. It doesn't need to atomize, and it doesn't puddle. Propane is only 1.5 times heavier than air, so it can literally hang out all day. And because it stays mixed with the air coming in the intake, all the cylinders get an equal air/fuel mixture. In short, propane makes up for fewer BTUs by burning more efficiently and completely. So the real-world horsepower loss for a propane conversion on an unmodified engine is more like 5%-15%.
> Which brings us to the issue of naughty conversions. Propane engines require a different ignition advance curve compared to gasoline, typically advanced 5-15 degrees under 3,000 RPM. Additionally, propane has a higher octane rating than premium gasoline (about 105 compared to 91 or so), so you can build an engine with a higher compression ratio, making the engine even more efficient. The bottom line? An engine built with propane in mind can achieve roughly the same amount of horsepower-in some cases more-than a comparable gasoline carbureted engine.


Also keep in mind that most of the horsepower loss is at the top end of the power band. Most of your equipment is not going to running maxed out. 


LincTex said:


> Also, the equipment to run your stuff on propane - tanks and regulators for each vehicle - isn't cheap either.


This is something I really fail to understand. You point out that there is some added costs with propane, seemingly ignoring that there are cost associated with any fuel storage system. Especially with a non standardized system like the one you describe. While failing to acknowledge that there are some dramatic short and long term savings to be had with propane. The cost of fuel alone can offset the cost of any equipment you may need for propane.
The cost of premium gas at last check is $3.60 a gallon. 1,500 gallons of gas would cost me $5,400.00. Of course I also have to pay to go pick up that 1,500 gallons in your thirty, fifty gallon drums of gas and transport to my home.
While the cost of propane Delivered to my home is $1.15 a gallon or $1,725 for 1,500 gallons. That is a price savings of $3,675 the very first time I fill up. That alone would cover the cost of every so called extra bit of equipment needed to use propane if you buy your own tanks. After that its $3,675 or so in your pocket every time you fill up. Of course the reality is I and I suspect most of us don't buy 1,500 of gas every time so the money in your pocket won't be quiet as much every fill up, though there will be a savings
But that is only the short term savings. The long term savings are far greater. Which brings us back to my primary reason for opting for propane. While I in fact have spare engines, motors and parts to rebuild or replace all of my engines and motors. Once SHTF we want our equipment to last as long as possible before we have to repair or replace them. Equipment that runs on propane is by far more reliable and has much longer engine life, than equipment that runs on other fuels. How much fuel you have managed to store will be meaningless if your equipment does not run. As result of using propane I need to store fewer repair and replacement parts like rings gaskets, valves in addition to fewer maintenance items like oil and spark plugs. Of course you will still need the same number of belts, hoses and things that just deteriorate over time. But the maintenance, repair, replacement parts and spare engines are far fewer.



LincTex said:


> All said, I am glad your plans have worked out the way they are, but you have a lot of expense involved in getting where you are at presently, and a LOT of preppers do not have that ability to sacrifice so much money to do the same.
> I am only presenting an alternative - being able to store a fuel similar to propane that is stored with all of the benefits of long storage life with none of the specialized equipment.


Actually I presented an alternative to long term gas storage, based upon what I have done. Since than it seems I have been responding to your disparaging presumptions that propane is not a viable option based upon inaccurate conclusions and obstacles that are either non existent or not nearly as insurmountable you seem to think. Like your insistence that using propane is too costly when it is obviously far less expensive in actual use than gas.


----------



## LincTex

It is only less expensive once the infrastructure of your "homestead" has been established.

To be fair, you have to compare current prices of new tanks and equipment. That stuff s not cheap. Texas has a lot of natural gas everywhere, so it hurts the propane market a lot.

I don't know what prices you are getting, but to convert a vehicle to propane in Texas starts around $2000 and goes up from there. We also (very ironically) don't get propane for as low a price as you say you are getting yours at, and it is because there are only two names in town and I think they make sure they both keep their prices up.

The negatives for propane as a vehicle fuel where I am at:
Limited delivery options (only two companies)
Cost of tank at home ($1 a gallon used, much more new) $500
Cost of conversion - $2000?
home refueling hose - $300
VERY limited refueling stations away from home, and those have weird hours

In short, it would take a while to save enough money in fuel costs to offset the start-up fees. Since I drive the Softail more than the truck, it would take years.

But all of this discussion is MOOT... 
We are talking about storing gasoline for WTSHTF.

Remember, most are on a budget, and a lot of folks on this forum have the ability to store maybe 50 gallons of gas or so, and that's it. So the choice for them would never be propane, it isn't feasible. I have the ability to store about 300 gallons of gas, max. I wish I could store 500 or 1000 or even 2000, but I just can't right now. What I need more than anything (and most reading this) is a way to store the fuel that our vehicles currently use. Diesel can go in drums and then in a storage building, but gasoline just doesn't keep that well. I have found a fairly easy and cheap way to store gasoline for a very, very long time. This info applies to 99% of the folks reading this thread. I applaud you for going all propane, but honestly.... it just isn't practical for most people.

Besides, you still need some gasoline for your motorcycle, rototiller and chainsaw, so why not store it the way I do?

Back on Post #37 I said we can really only store enough fuel to get through and "adjustment period", and I still stand by that. I see stored petroleum fuels as a means to not be "instantly" thrown into the 1800's again.... maybe after a couple of years, sure. But I doubt I would be able to store even enough for a couple of years unless the ONLY thing the fuel was used for was food/farming/gardening purposes.


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## vickers

It seems based on this thread that treated gasoline can be used 6 months later with no problem. At the 1 year mark, it may be ok. Under 2 years and you will want to mix it with fresh gasoline. Does that about sum it up?

Also, if I retreat gasoline at the 6 month mark, will i get additional time out of it, or is one treatment max?

Thank you.


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## hiwall

vickersja, I think storage conditions play a huge role in how long it lasts. Gas in an in-ground tank will likely last much longer than the gas in a car's tank due to more even storage temperatures. There are many variables that could change how long it lasts.


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## helicopter5472

I have 70 gallons of gas in my motorhome in which 3 years ago I added fuel conditioner, both the genset and engine start and run fine. I will probably drain and use the gas in my car this summer and replace it with treated fuel again.


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## LincTex

vickersja said:


> It seems based on this thread that treated gasoline can be used 6 months later with no problem. At the 1 year mark, it may be ok. Under 2 years and you will want to mix it with fresh gasoline. Does that about sum it up?


 Not necessarily......

Read this!!

http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f2/gasoline-stored-5-years-success-22028/


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## LincTex

*Removing Ethanol from Gasoline*

http://goldwingdocs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14679

http://eaaforums.org/showthread.php?1472-ethanol-removal

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/removing-ethanol-gasoline-12697.html
As to removing the water, I would suggest zeolite maybe or Silica "Gel" beads that come in beef jerky packages, shoe boxes, and the like. You just have to heat it up to evaporate the water in order to reuse it again. I've heard this is how gasohol home-brewers remove the water from their ethanol before mixing. I would assume this method wouldn't also absorb gasoline.


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## rugster

Viking said:


> The only fuel I store is non alcohol and it's mainly for chainsaw, weedeater and generator.


Me Too! as others have said Ethanol blended fuel doesn't last. Store non ethanol blended fuel and use a fuel stabilizers I treated some with Lucas Fuel Stabilizer it's about 4 years old now and I used it in my lawnmower last week still works fine.

Find non ethanol fuel near you here

http://pure-gas.org/

The other thing I keep around is Marvel Mystery Oil if you have seldom used power equipment this stuff works great for hard starting small engines.


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## LincTex

rugster said:


> Find non ethanol fuel near you here
> http://pure-gas.org/


Nothing near me except AvGas and marine gas... both are expensive so I do this:
http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f2/gasoline-stored-5-years-success-22028/#post297837


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## tattooedwhitetrash

Before they started putting ethanol in gasoline my CJ-7 sat for nearly a year to the day with about a quarter tank. It fired up just fine after replacing the battery and cranking on it for a few seconds. I did go to the gas station within a day or so but it ran fine. 

There are two places within 5 miles of me that sell ethanol free gasoline. My personal vehicles get it 95% of the time and lawn equipment 100% of the time. I will gladly pay the extra 10-15¢ per gallon for a higher quality product.


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## LincTex

tattooedwhitetrash said:


> There are two places *within 5 miles of me* that sell ethanol free gasoline... extra 10-15¢ per gallon


Wow, you are lucky!


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## rugster

I'm not buying massive quantities for a car but small equipment it's not a big issue to pay a little more.

The problem with ethanol is it's damaging to many plastics and seals in older combustion engines pre 1990's. It's also hydrophilic and absorbs water accelerating fuels deterioration when moisture is present and causes deposits. Our fire departments around here don't use ethanol blended fuel. I talked with a guy at the company that sells them the non-ethanol fuel it's for all their small engine stuff , pumps, saws, generators.

This is what they sell them expensive but not nearly as expensive as an engine that doesn't work.
http://www.vpracingfuels.com/sef-small-engine


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## LincTex

Back to the top again :-D


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## Meerkat

testingfro paste.


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## SheepdogPRS

10% ethanol has never been a problem in any of my 3 pre 1975 cars.
The ethanol does not rust steel lines, dissolve rubber or plastic fuel components, hurt the aluminum carburetors at all and the valves have been fine in all three of my V8 engines. My 1966 Ford started right up after being stored for 5 years with unleaded gas in the tank.

Ethanol will clean out your fuel system. Any rust or oxidized rust in the fuel system will be flushed and that stuff will plug your filters and when the filters by-pass it gets into your carburetor. Keep the filters clean and all ethanol will do is keep the system clean. Alcohol is a solvent but it doesn't attack fuel lines or aluminum and zinc carburetors.

Water is the enemy, not the alcohol. Now if you are running Methanol it is a very different story.


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## RedBeard

SheepdogPRS said:


> 10% ethanol has never been a problem in any of my 3 pre 1975 cars.
> The ethanol does not rust steel lines, dissolve rubber or plastic fuel components, hurt the aluminum carburetors at all and the valves have been fine in all three of my V8 engines. My 1966 Ford started right up after being stored for 5 years with unleaded gas in the tank.
> 
> Ethanol will clean out your fuel system. Any rust or oxidized rust in the fuel system will be flushed and that stuff will plug your filters and when the filters by-pass it gets into your carburetor. Keep the filters clean and all ethanol will do is keep the system clean. Alcohol is a solvent but it doesn't attack fuel lines or aluminum and zinc carburetors.
> 
> Water is the enemy, not the alcohol. Now if you are running Methanol it is a very different story.


What!?! Yes ethanol is a solvent that is why it does in fact dry out rubber fuel lines. It strips the natural and unnatural oils from the rubber and dries it from the inside out. It is a constant problem in the small engine field. That said automotive fuel line is usually a better quality. Ethanol also does the same to the gaskets and diaphragms especially in the small engine world. Granted gas does the same thing but the ethanol accelerates the process because it is a solvent. Your right about the metal and alloys though. The ethanol adsorbs moisture right out of the air and that causes the corrosion. Ethanols water absorption also makes it very very easy to remove the ethanol from your gas, simply add water and let it sit, then drain off ethanol and water.


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## RedBeard

http://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_problems_damage.html

"Engine Problems Resulting from E10*Ethanol Alcohol* Fuel Use: *Ethanol alcohol* is an excellent SOLVENT -*Ethanol* will dissolve plastic, *rubber*, certain types of fiberglass and even aluminum! *Ethanol* can dissolve and disintegrate just about anything that has accumulated in a motor engine."


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## SheepdogPRS

Fuel testers are selling testing kits for alcohol content. They are hardly a good source of information.
Don't tell all that crap to my cars, they obviously are unaware. I have had my 1966 Ford since 1982. people told me it would burn the valves, eat the hoses and fuel pump diaphragm, and rust all the metal fuel lines. Still going well after 35 years. It seems that the car was made of indestructible parts. My two 1973 Mavericks are still going strong too and we have had them for well over 12 years. I did rebuild the transmissions in them but with over 150000 miles that was expected. I built them stronger than the factory because I was building high performance and racing C-4s back then.

The site you quoted from goes on to say the E85 is a better fuel than E-10 because it has less gasoline. They seem to be confused.


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## RedBeard

SheepdogPRS said:


> Fuel testers are selling testing kits for alcohol content. They are hardly a good source of information.
> Don't tell all that crap to my cars, they obviously are unaware. I have had my 1966 Ford since 1982. people told me it would burn the valves, eat the hoses and fuel pump diaphragm, and rust all the metal fuel lines. Still going well after 35 years. It seems that the car was made of indestructible parts. My two 1973 Mavericks are still going strong too and we have had them for well over 12 years. I did rebuild the transmissions in them but with over 150000 miles that was expected. I built them stronger than the factory because I was building high performance and racing C-4s back then.
> 
> The site you quoted from goes on to say the E85 is a better fuel than E-10 because it has less gasoline. They seem to be confused.


Ha i didn't see that! Yes they are. I have never heard of it rusting metal fuel lines or seen anything rusted because of it. I have never seen a daily used small engine carbs damaged from it. I have never seen it affect a daily driven car carb. Anything that sits alot i have seen issues with, and way more in the small engine world. That is due to the ethanol attracting moisture. The moisture does alot of the damage. That said i have seen a lot of cheap carbs eaten away, that was the ethanol. It has to be something with the grade of metal used to make the carb. I think that's why ethanol doesn't affect vehicles as much, made from better quality stuff. Before ethanol it was nothing to get 20 years and more out of fuel lines and diaphragm pumps. Today your lucky if you get 10. Again i see more in cheaper stuff. It has to be a quality thing, the better the quality of the materials used to make the parts the more you never see it. I have seen rubber fuel lines become rock hard but work and not leak butt if you bent it to much it will break. Also seen the tygon type lines become soft as bubble gum and fall apart. These problems were around before ethanol and like i said the gas will do most of this but it's over a much longer time. Now with ethanol it is very common to see and consist of about 90percent of my small engine work. Since im not a scientist though i could be dead wrong, they very well could have changed the gas and it is speeding thing up and not the ethanol. That is possible. I know this either way since they added ethanol to the fuel i have made a lot of money because of this new fuel. I also know the marine industry went to court over the new fuel so they could get the old fuel again because the new fuel was eating the fuel tanks right out of the boats. I believe some in thw small engine industry joined in on that so they could sell ethanol free fuel to people who gave a crap. Me i buy e10 and remove the ethanol myself. Note i test a before sample from every batch that i do and it is very common to get e10 with 18 percent instead of 10.


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## SheepdogPRS

When you remove the ethanol you lower the effective "octane rating" because the ethanol provides more anti knock to the gas. My brother has problems with the quad, chain saws and small generators because he doesn't store them properly. I've never had problems with my generator or my chain saw. Well, I did have one problem with my chain saw when my son used it to cut roots to get a tree out of the ground, He is supposed to be getting a new chain for me "someday".


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## RedBeard

The amount it reduces the octane is marginal. Never had any issues with any of my stuff that i run the removed ethanol fuel through. And if you use husky, stilh, echo, ie name brand 2 stroke oil it already has fuel stable built in. Remember the good old days when the gas came as just gas and you didn't have to do anything to the gas to store an engine? I do.


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## SheepdogPRS

I remember cleaning the varnish out of carburetors and intake manifolds back in the late 1960s and cleaning the waxy sludge out of LPG vaporizers and regulators in the 70s and 80s. I remember cleaning valves with a wire wheel so they could be evaluated and ground or replaced. Those were the good old days?

I learned early on that you don't let gasoline set in carbs, fuel filters and lines unless you want to clean them out using.. wait for it... Alcohol.


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## RedBeard

Still cleaning varnish out of carbs. That's what gas does when it sits to long.... Well this is pointless then. People across the industry are having issues with ethanol. But not you, you think it's the new best thing and millions of people are wrong. So good luck to you.


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## LincTex

Here in the Texas heat, 10% Ethanol gasoline is absolutely hell on anything rubber. 
Here in the Texas humidity, 10% Ethanol gasoline is absolutely hell on any carburetor.

You have your experiences, I have mine. Obviously they are very different.

I have a box of WELL OVER a dozen different carburetors that all have severe damage from ethanol fuel. On cold & rainy days I try to clean them up to have as spares (if I am not doing something else that is a higher priority). Ethanol kills rubber parts including needle tips, and the water that ends up in the fuel turns into green jello in the carbs.


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