# 100lb Propane Tank for Home Use



## ra-ym

Has anyone used a 100lb propane tank for home use - stove, etc, instead of having a 250 or 500 tank installed? How well has it worked out? Are they difficult to get filled?


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## ZoomZoom

Welcome to the forum.

I don't have one for the house but use 100# for the shop heaters. Works fine for me. To fill, I just put them in the truck and go get them filled.

Not sure if it's a code thing or just considered a PITA to use 100# for a house in that you'll have to fill more often.

If you're going to use the 100, consider using 2 with an automatic transfer switch. The switch will give a red indicator when it switched to the 2nd tank letting you know it's time to get the first re-filled.


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## ra-ym

Thanks. I've been mooching for a long time and finally decided to sign up. Lots of good info here.

I haven't decided the final setup, but I'm leaning to having just the stove on propane. I contacted several suppliers that cover where I will build my house, but not a single one will answer me. I want to have most stuff running on solar power.


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## BillM

I keep a 1000 pound tank full at all times . That holds 800 pounds of Propane .

That amount will heat my home for an entire winter and allow us to cook for an entire year.

I would recommend two 500 gallon tanks hooked to your line in parallel.

You can keep one tank shut off and when your first tank runs out , you shut it off and open the full tank and reorder propane . That way you will never have less than 400 lb of propane.


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## readytogo

I have 3 of them, one for the stove the other for the water heater and the spared one alone with 4 -20 pounders, so far I`m able to take them to get refill and the main reason for not having a 250 tank is no lines yet , but I will always keep the others you see the 100 pounders are galvanize steel , hard to find around this parts because some idiots turn them into BBQ`s. You have to consider fill-ups between how many month to control your service fees between fill-ups, think of a pressure gauge to monitor your tank that way you have an idea for the fill-up time. When I can`t find something I go here
http://gashosesandregulators.com/brassfittings.html
Hope this could help you.


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## hiwall

One of my first jobs I ever had was delivering those 100# cylinders. Many, many people used to use them. When full their weight approaches 200# so you have to think how you can handle that weight. Supposed to be hauled upright and chained solid with the screw-on metal cover over the valve. They last quite awhile on a kitchen range or water heater. They are fine but I my opinion, you should buy a larger permanent tank if you are thinking "prep item".


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## ra-ym

Thanks for the info. While I do want to keep plenty of stuff available, I am looking at building my house. Maybe down the road I can add stuff. This house is for now and I hope to be able to build a bigger one in a few years and give this one to my sister.
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/build-your-own-house

I would love to have enough to sit at home content with a few years supply. I looked at 500lb tanks, but getting one and getting a good idea of price seems hard to get, other than rather expensive. What I've found for 100lb tanks is they aren't that much and I can take them to get filled and not worry about a company filling them. Everything I've read on propane companies is they are hard to work with. I emailed a few to say I'm moving to the area and was looking for some service and pricing info and didn't get a single response. So I have little faith.

Will a moving dolly work to move those? Though I might need a heavy duty version.

I'm thinking just the kitchen stove will be propane and wood for heat. My wife is a good cook, so she still might burn through a 100lb tank fast.

I like the transfer switch idea. I had to google it since I hadn't seen those before. Thanks for the tip.


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## cowboyhermit

The advantages of those bottles is that they are "portable" and you don't need the propane company guys coming to the location where they will be used, this may be a positive for many reasons. If used for just a stove they will last a LONG time, other things like a water heater will take significantly more although I know someone who ran a full size refrigerator on them for years.
For storage of larger quantities the cost will be lower with a large tank.


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## Boomy

Growing up in Mexico, that is all we used. Always had two on hand so one was always full. We ran our stove and water heaters (no central heat) off of them. If we did need a heater we used a bbq tank and a ceramic heater.


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## LincTex

ra-ym said:


> Will a moving dolly work to move those?


Yes, that is what I use (with the nylon strap and built-in winch). I think any two wheel dolly would work fine, but a ratchet strap (in some form) is a necessity! You can't afford to have the tank fall off the dolly while moving it.



ra-ym said:


> I'm thinking just the kitchen stove will be propane and wood for heat. My wife is a good cook, so she still might burn through a 100lb tank fast.


That's what we do - wood for heat, range top is gas. The oven is a wall unit and is electric, but isn't used unless large meals are being prepared. Microwave for all small meals. The gas range cook top last a very long time on 100lbs.

Check Craigslist for larger tanks; always buy - never rent.


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## lilmissy0740

I know a few people who live in revs all year long in PA. They use the 100lb tanks. Some bought them from a store, others from other campers. But they take them to truck stops to get filled. Only one has a company that actually will come and fill them.


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## LincTex

Definitely shop around for prices. Big stores like U-Haiul and TSC have the highest prices. A local feed supply and RV park are the cheapest around here.

I have a small bulk tank at my house, and I make sure the propane guy is filling someone else nearby first (usually the big tank at the RV park) - that way the delivery fees are less. Some places will work with you, but you need to be ready to deal a bit first.


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## 8thDayStranger

Like has been mentioned, many people use a couple of them to run household stuff. A large bulk tank is better for a permanent structure. You can lock in the ever fluctuating LP prices for a set amount of time but your paying a big chunk at one time. 100# tanks aren't that bad to move around. A dolly helps but they aren't horrible. 

I would suggest storing them out of the rain to guard against rusting. I know folks who just set them in beside their house in the rain and then complain when I have to bead blast and paint there cylinder before I let my guy fill it cause its so rusty. 

Around here you can pick up new 100# cylinders at Lowes for $126 but talk to your local propane company or welding supply. They can usually cut you a better deal on used tanks.


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## Wellrounded

In rural Australia we use a x2 100lb tank system. Most places have a fuel depot that will come out and change them for you and you rent the tank (last time I had one it was about $20.00 per year). I've only ever used them for cooking and 100lb lasts a long time even with the amount of cooking I do. Now we take ours to get refilled. 
I use a wood stove in the kitchen for most of my cooking but have two rings for stuff like canning days and for the hottest weeks of summer. We also use it to heat the pig scudding bath, hubbies lead smelting, hot smoker and BBQing. We probably refill every ten months.


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## mosquitomountainman

LincTex said:


> Yes, that is what I use (with the nylon strap and built-in winch). I think any two wheel dolly would work fine, but a ratchet strap (in some form) is a necessity! You can't afford to have the tank fall off the dolly while moving it.
> 
> That's what we do - wood for heat, range top is gas. The oven is a wall unit and is electric, but isn't used unless large meals are being prepared. Microwave for all small meals. The gas range cook top last a very long time on 100lbs.
> 
> Check Craigslist for larger tanks; always buy - never rent.


Excellent advice here. Also from 8DS - We bought our last two at the propane dealer. We have four, 100 lb. tanks. They last 6 months on average. It is hooked to the cook stove only. My wife does a lot of canning. During the busy season we've been known to use the kitchen range and a two burner outfitter's stove (we have five pressure canners now).

One thing we do to make the propane last longer is shut of the pilot lights to the top burners. We use those long barbecue butane lighters to start the burners. When the butane runs dry we continue to use the lighter. The spark is at the end of the shaft so just hold it next to the burner and pull the trigger. We've used one for over three years now.

Another thing to think about: Our son is a firefighter and they responded to one blaze where a sheet of snow slid off a roof and on the tank and broke the hose at the point it entered the house. The house filled with propane then went "BOOM." The residents escaped unharmed (talk about miracles!) but it literally blew the roof up into the air and it settled back down (intact but not centered) on the walls. It also blew the fire out. We immediately moved our tank to a place where the roof overhang would prevent that happening at our house.


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## PreparedRifleman73

I have a 100lb tank myself. My home is on natural gas, but we grill outdoors year round on LP. It fit under the deck. It works great for us. In my opinion, it's better tha refilling 20lb tanks all the time. The only issue I've had is that I need to shut it off at the tank each time because it can be hard to find a good line for those tanks.

Also, I was looking at a standby generator. While I would buy a natural gas model, I did see that some of the LP ones require a 250lb tank or larger for some reason.

Best of luck to you.


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## LincTex

hawkmiles said:


> Also, I was looking at a standby generator. While I would buy a natural gas model, I did see that some of the LP ones require a 250lb tank or larger for some reason.


That's because as the liquid boils off to supply vapor, it gets colder and colder. If you have a large enough generator you can ice up a 20 lb bottle in just minutes! I see some guys use dual 30-40 lb bottles, but even those will get too cold really fast on a cold day. In Texas summer sun, no problem - but in the the winter it would be a problem. In northern climates, even a 250 lb tank would be too small in the winter, unless you could direct some of the heat from the generator towards the tank in some fashion (and still be safe).


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## LincTex

Around here, the cheapest "street price" for refilling 100lb cylinders is about $67-$69 (~$2.90 gallon). I can get them filled a fair bit cheaper if they are also filling the bulk tank at the same time (or $2.45 gallon if I drive them 30 miles!!). What are y'all paying?


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## ZoomZoom

I think I paid $74 for 100#'ers last time I filled up (last fall I think).


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## 8thDayStranger

We charge $84 over the counter. If someone does a decent amount of business with us or is a friend it's cheaper. My personal price is cost plus 10% but I can't think of the last time they actually made me pay for something.


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## GrinnanBarrett

If you plan to move one about and take it in for refill you are going to need a "Drum Dolly". that is a dolly built to handle 55 gallon drums that weigh in at over 500 pounds. You also will need a couple of folks to lift it in and out of your truck bed. I really prefer the 500 size. You need to work with your local propane dealers to get hooked up. They have the tanks and send out the trucks to fill them. They also know how to inspect them and do upgrades and repairs. GB


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## 8thDayStranger

A regular dolly will work. Two people loading it in the truck is a good idea but one person can do it. I do it all the time. If your moving it on flat hard ground you don't even need a dolly. Just grab the cap and lean it over til it's balanced and push with your foot. Takes a little practice but its not hard. A barrel cart is overkill.


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## ZoomZoom

I have a couple of drum dollies (example pictures below) and with mine, I don't see how it could work on a propane tank. It only has 2 little tabs for grabbing the drum. On a 100# tank, they're too far apart. For a 500# tank, being as the tank is rounded with a steel ring as its foot, I still don't know if the drum dolly could grab it.

For 100#, like 8thDay said, a regular dolly works fine. I position the empty tank near the tailgate of the truck. Lean the top onto the tailgate then lift from the bottom of the tank and slide it in the truck. When unloading, pull the tank slowly off the tailgate and then ease back onto the ground.


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## 8thDayStranger

Yeah the only way to move 500# tanks is with a fork lift or some kind of a boom. If that's what you plan on using you're going to need an on site fill service or have it mounted to a trailer. 

Some barrel carts have a lip all the way across the bottom but still that much cart is unnecessary for a little 170# cylinder.


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## millertimedoneright

Look around for used 250 gallon tanks...with everyone's push to go all electric these days you can find a used tank for little of nothing


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## LongRider

ra-ym said:


> Has anyone used a 100lb propane tank for home use - stove, etc, instead of having a 250 or 500 tank installed? How well has it worked out? Are they difficult to get filled?


We have three 500 gallon tanks as our primary fuel source. Many smaller 5,10, 20 gallon tanks but I can see a 100 gallon tank being useful say as a shop tank or to run the water pump. Get a refill nozzle for your larger tanks to fill the smaller tanks and vehicle tanks from. About $450. bucks well worth it


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## ra-ym

How reliable is a used tank? What are the chances of getting a good one that needs minimal costly work easy to find? I have this image of a used, rusty, broken tank when I show up to see the tank posted on craigslist.

What is the price range for a good condition used 250 or 500 tank?


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## bunkerbob

*25 lb propane tank*



ra-ym said:


> Has anyone used a 100lb propane tank for home use - stove, etc, instead of having a 250 or 500 tank installed? How well has it worked out? Are they difficult to get filled?


This is the second home that we have used the 25lb propane tanks that are available at most hardware stores. I have made a dual setup that has a simple switching valve for two tanks at a time, two are in reserve, total of four.
Now I can find the least expensive propane and not rely on a contract, their availability to fill, and the much higher price of propane they provide.
I also have a 500 gal tank filled to 80%, plumbed in, sitting there just in case.
The 100gal tanks cannot be made mobile on a trailer here in Calif.

BB


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## LincTex

ra-ym said:


> How reliable is a used tank?


They are fine, reliable as any day in their life as long as they are taken care of!



ra-ym said:


> What are the chances of getting a good one that needs minimal costly work easy to find?


The chances are excellent, just do a thorough search. If you are not looking, you will find nothing. The law of supply and demand comes into effect.



ra-ym said:


> I have this image of a used, rusty, broken tank when I show up to see the tank posted on craigslist.


Then don't buy it. Shiny paint with a rough surface means the tank has bad rust pitting and was just painted over. Might want to pass on that one. Look underneath it to see if it was up on blocks (correct) or if it sat right on the soil (pass on that one).



ra-ym said:


> What is the price range for a good condition used 250 or 500 tank?


That depends 100% on your area. 
"Supply and demand" rules apply, so what is the supply in your area and what is the demand in your area?


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## hiwall

the gas companies here all charge about $900 for a 250 gallon tank delivered. might be way different in your area. likely much cheaper from a private party. with any size used tank if it contains some fuel then you know it does not leak so buy it.


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## LincTex

bunkerbob said:


> This is the second home that we have used the 25lb (20lb?) propane tanks that are available at most hardware stores. Now I can find the least expensive propane ...


I refill my 20lb and 30lb cylinders from a 100lb tank (23.5 gallons) with a hose I made; you could save a few bucks doing the same thing. The worst part is the tool that you have to make that holds the 100lb tank inverted.

Most large bulk tanks do not have a liquid dip tube. One came up for sale locally recently (it was used to refill a propane tractor) but the price was outrageous.


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## 8thDayStranger

LincTex said:


> I refill my 20lb and 30lb cylinders from a 100lb tank (23.5 gallons) with a hose I made; you could save a few bucks doing the same thing. The worst part is the tool that you have to make that holds the 100lb tank inverted.
> 
> Most large bulk tanks do not have a liquid dip tube. One came up for sale locally recently (it was used to refill a propane tractor) but the price was outrageous.


If you can get a tank for a good price, you can always buy a dual Liquid/vapor valve and install it on an EMPTY tank. All you have to do is purge it very well with nitrogen (not air, that'll make a bomb) pull the old valve and screw in the new one. Then have the tank filled. Just tell the filler that the tank has been opened. They will purge the N2 out. Also no matter what have them do a pressure check on all the lines and fittings just to be safe. Most places around here are required to do that if you go below either 5-10%.


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## Boomy

8thDayStranger said:


> If you can get a tank for a good price, you can always buy a dual Liquid/vapor valve and install it on an EMPTY tank. All you have to do is purge it very well with nitrogen (not air, that'll make a bomb) pull the old valve and screw in the new one. Then have the tank filled. Just tell the filler that the tank has been opened. They will purge the N2 out. Also no matter what have them do a pressure check on all the lines and fittings just to be safe. Most places around here are required to do that if you go below either 5-10%.


Not sure which of those two posts confuses me more?
1- we always ran our 100# tanks straight up. We never inverted them?

2- Around here they don't purge the tanks with N2? Open the vent and let the LP purge out the air on the tank. Have had plenty of 7.5lb forflift tanks re-valved and never had an issue.


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## LincTex

Boomy said:


> 1- we always ran our 100# tanks straight up. We never inverted them?.


Only to get to the liquid when refilling smaller bottles. Some 100lb'ers have dip tubes, mine don't.

The other part (liquid valve) was for large bulk tanks, not 100lb'ers


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## 8thDayStranger

Boomy said:


> 2- Around here they don't purge the tanks with N2? Open the vent and let the LP purge out the air on the tank. Have had plenty of 7.5lb forflift tanks re-valved and never had an issue.


This is for if you're working on a large bulk tank. Before you pull the valve you want all the propane out. This is just a safety precaution. And you never want to purge a large tank with air. Anything over around 2% propane in air is extremely unstable and can ignite itself under the right conditions. Can you get away with pulling a valve without purging? Yeah but I wouldn't chance it on such a big tank. One spark is all it takes. The smaller tanks are easier. They don't usually hold much residual gas or liquid. You don't have to purge afterward. The propane will push out anything left. Some places will pull a vacuum on the tank before filling. It's all just a safety thing.


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## Tirediron

Many older bulk propane tanks have a liquid valve on the bottom, it has a blank plug in it, but there is a valve in the fitting that stops the flow when you take the plug out and lets you replace it with a liquid valve or hose. Most suppliers will charge road tax if you have a liquid line. 
Also automotive propane tanks are cheap or free here, and they can be good for long term storage if there aren't too many busy bodies around.


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## Bobbb

Tirediron said:


> Most suppliers will charge road tax if you have a liquid line.


What does that mean though? Some of us are stupid about these things and you've left out too many facts which you probably take for granted.

Why does a liquid line, whatever that is, incur a road tax? What makes a liquid line essential to vehicular propane tanks?



> Also automotive propane tanks are cheap or free here, and they can be good for long term storage if there aren't too many busy bodies around.


What's the difference between a vehicular tank and a home tank? Why shouldn't we use vehicular tanks for home storage? Something to do with that mysterious liquid line?

Bobbb reporting for school and here's a shiny apple for the teachers.


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## 8thDayStranger

Confused about the automotive tank terminology myself. Never heard this but maybe I just call them something else is all. 

And how does a liquid line (a line that pulls the liquid propane from the tank in order to trans fill another bottle) incur this tax?

I don't know much about the bulk tank side. I just deal in portable tanks (100# and under). I know basic regulations for propane in general but not specifics on the bulk side.


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## cowboyhermit

Propane for heating/cooking isn't taxed, propane for driving is taxed just like gasoline. Some people fill their vehicles at home to circumvent this, though there are lots of reasons.

You can't fill a tank with just the propane gas, well you can but it won't last 5 minutes, you need to get the liquid so either a valve on bottom of tank, tube from valve to the bottom of tank, or flip the bottle over.

You probably aren't supposed to "store" propane in automotive tanks just like the slip tanks for in truck boxes now are for "transfer only"

A lot of this stuff is probably dependent on location as well.


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## Tirediron

Most domestic use propane is tapped as vapour , unless it is really high volume. Liquid lines on bulk tanks are usually for filling smaller tanks, IE automotive and thus, here anyway, subject to road tax. Automotive tanks are usually liquid only, but some have a vapor port. As far as function automotive tanks are probably better and safer, but some busy body may feel different. Filling a loose automotive tank at other than a fixed location would probably be illegal. The solution to a liquid only tank is to find a tank that has a vapor port and fit a hose to transfer from the liquid tank to the vapor tank for home use.


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## Bobbb

The difference between a gas and a liquid is the environment they exist within, an environment characterized by temperature and pressure.

I'm going to assume that gas propane is used for cooking and heating and that liquid propane is used for powering vehicles. Is that a correct assumption?

In order to get the propane to liquid state the propane has to be cooled down more than in its gaseous state or it has to be subjected to greater pressure. Seeing how I haven't seen vehicular propane tanks with with their coolers I'm going to assume that vehicular tanks are designed to withstand greater pressure.

So if someone is going to be transferring gaseous-state propane into their vehicles they're going to need a way to pressurize it.

Am I on the right track here?

Conversely, there doesn't seem to be much economic sense in buying liquid propane for your home because you incur road taxes and now you have to have a mechanism to bleed off pressure and turn the liquid into gas before you can use it in your home. Is that right?


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## cowboyhermit

Propane is always stored as liquid in the tank, just slosh a little tank and it is obvious. Where the line is drawing from makes the difference. The pressure is created by the propane evaporating to it's vapour pressure.
Even a vehicle doesn't burn liquid propane, it is converted to gas with a "vapourizer".


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## Tirediron

Propane is stored and transported in a liquid state, it boils at -40 degrees and thus shifts to vapor , it also holds a liquid state at around 180 psi, temperature dependant. most tanks are set to release pressure at 250 psi or so. if you turn an old 20# tank upside down it will release liquid out of the vapor port, newer ones have a Anti Darwin awards valve (OPD) to prevent the unlearned from releasing - 40 degree liquid on themselves. Automotive tanks are probably more robust to meet transport standards.


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## Bobbb

Well that makes things as clear as mud. 

If there is no pressure differential between automotive tanks and home-use tanks, then what's preventing people from buying propane sold for home-use and transferring it to vehicles?


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## Tirediron

Being skeerd of "the man" and it is a bit of a pain in the A$$, pumps are hard to come by. otherwise the tank pressures just equalize and the tank being filled might not get full. Gravity helps and so does the cooling effect of the liquid flashing to vapor during the beginning of the transfer.


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## LincTex

Tirediron said:


> it is a bit of a pain in the A$$, pumps are hard to come by. otherwise the tank pressures just equalize and the tank being filled might not get full. Gravity helps and so does the cooling effect of the liquid flashing to vapor during the beginning of the transfer.


You also need to usually vent some of the vapor from the empty tank to establish flow.

http://www.mytractorforum.com/showthread.php?t=87216


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## mosquitomountainman

Bobbb said:


> Well that makes things as clear as mud.
> 
> If there is no pressure differential between automotive tanks and home-use tanks, then what's preventing people from buying propane sold for home-use and transferring it to vehicles?


The only prevention is fear of being caught (and most people aren't smart enough to know how to do it).

You can also buy "red dye" diesel and fuel oil that isn't taxed for road use. (We've used it in place of kerosene in oil lamps.) The DOT will check it if they suspect you're using it in on-road vehicles and you may pay a hefty fine if they catch you.


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## Bobbb

I did a quick search of the subject of road taxes in Canada and it looks like Ontario has the highest road taxes on propane 1.4 cents per liter. That can't be the sum total of road taxes imposed on propane, can it? I'm going to assume that there are other taxes that my search didn't uncover because for a 1.4 cent differential the extra work involved in trying to beat the tax doesn't seem worth the effort.


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## cowboyhermit

Taxes on fuel are higher than that but for some people it is a convenience and also you can buy when prices are low, propane stores forever.

When we buy bulk fuel 500 gallons or more at a time there is no discount compared to the pumps but by buying at the right time you can save a lot of $$$.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States
From wiki "The United States federal excise tax on gasoline is 18.4 cents per gallon and 24.4 cents per gallon for diesel fuel."
"On average, as of January 2013, state and local taxes add 30.4 cents to gasoline and 30.0 cents to diesel, for a total US average fuel tax of 48.8 cents per gallon for gas and 54.4 cents per gallon for diesel."
Not sure what propane is.


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## Bobbb

cowboyhermit said:


> Taxes on fuel are higher than that but for some people it is a convenience and also you can buy when prices are low, propane stores forever.
> 
> When we buy bulk fuel 500 gallons or more at a time there is no discount compared to the pumps but by buying at the right time you can save a lot of $$$.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States
> From wiki "The United States federal excise tax on gasoline is 18.4 cents per gallon and 24.4 cents per gallon for diesel fuel."
> "On average, as of January 2013, state and local taxes add 30.4 cents to gasoline and 30.0 cents to diesel, for a total US average fuel tax of 48.8 cents per gallon for gas and 54.4 cents per gallon for diesel."
> Not sure what propane is.


The road tax on gasoline in Canada is 16 cents per liter and there are other taxes, but I was looking specifically for the road taxes on propane and they're a pittance and you guys can even get grants to convert from gas to propane. It's clear that part of the incentive to convert is that there are lower road taxes applied to propane.

What I'm not seeing, maybe because I don't have the complete tax picture, is the incentive to buy non-road propane and then use it for your vehicle. It's not like farm diesel. I'm not seeing much price difference from the published sources I could find.

It seems like a huge hassle to save yourself $5 on a 500 liter purchase.

I misreported the Ontario numbers above. Here are the road taxes in various provinces:

Ontario:

Gasoline - 14.7 cents per litre
Ethanol - 14.7 cents per litre
Diesel - 14.3 cents per litre
Propane - 4.3 cents per litre
Biodiesel - 0.0 cents per litre
Natural gas - 0.0 cents per litre
Methanol - 0.0 cents per litre

Quebec:

Gasoline - 15.2 cents per litre
Diesel - 16.2 cents per litre
Propane - 0.0 cents per litre
Natural gas - 0.0 cents per litre

BC

Gasoline - 14.5 cents per litre
Diesel - 15.0 cents per litre
Propane - 2.7 cents per litre
Natural gas - 0.0 cents per litre
Methanol - 0.0 cents per litre (minimum 85% methanol)
Ethanol - 0.0 cents per litre (minimum 85% ethanol)
Biodiesel - 0.0 cents per litre (proportional to % biodiesel)


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## cowboyhermit

Well 500L is not very much propane, don't forget a propane vehicle will get less mpg than a similar one burning gasoline, there is simply less energy.
I don't know how much the "average" driver spends on fuel every year but I know a lot of people who drive 10's of thousands of kilometers every year, those are the one's would see the benefit.


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## Tirediron

there are more than just road taxes, it comes to about $00.10 a litre and the tax on gas is more like this 
http://retail.petro-canada.ca/en/fuelsavings/2139.aspx

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_Canada

I couldn't find motor fuel taxes on propane


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## LongRider

ra-ym said:


> How reliable is a used tank? What are the chances of getting a good one that needs minimal costly work easy to find? I have this image of a used, rusty, broken tank when I show up to see the tank posted on craigslist.
> 
> What is the price range for a good condition used 250 or 500 tank?


If you by a used tank have it pressure tested. If it does not look right don't get it. Any sane propane company will not fill a suspect tank without at least pressure testing it. All of our smaller tanks are aluminum cost a bit more but well worth it as they last forever unless seriously abused.

It has been awhile but as recall we paid about a grand for each of our 500 gallon tanks new and installed.



Bobbb said:


> If there is no pressure differential between automotive tanks and home-use tanks, then what's preventing people from buying propane sold for home-use and transferring it to vehicles?


Its what we do, fill all out smaller tanks including vehicle tanks from out 500 gallon tanks. As I recall the nozzle was about $350 may $450


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## kilagal

We use the 100 # bottles here at our place. And I cook a lot as well as can. And use the oven a lot as well. I only use the propane for cooking. And we take them to Costco to get filled. They are the cheapest here in our area. They last me around 6 months of cooking. I have 2 of them because sometimes it will run out when we are not keeping track of time. Like the one year we ran out on Thanksgiven when the turkey was in the oven. Grabbed the other one and hooked it up and finished dinner. Love to can using the propane. Here our electricity flucuates to much and it is hard to keep the canner on the pounds of pressure it needs. Not a worry with the propane. Best way to cook.


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## LincTex

kilagal said:


> We use the 100 # bottles here at our place. And I cook a lot as well as can. And use the oven a lot as well. I only use the propane for cooking. They last me around 6 months of cooking.


Wow, that's pretty good!


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## Meerkat

LincTex said:


> Yes, that is what I use (with the nylon strap and built-in winch). I think any two wheel dolly would work fine, but a ratchet strap (in some form) is a necessity! You can't afford to have the tank fall off the dolly while moving it.
> 
> That's what we do - wood for heat, range top is gas. The oven is a wall unit and is electric, but isn't used unless large meals are being prepared. Microwave for all small meals. The gas range cook top last a very long time on 100lbs.
> 
> Check Craigslist for larger tanks; always buy - never rent.


 Good info, we have paid for this tank by renting over and over again! :nuts: These people charge us 48 a year for rent plus we buy our propane from the,. .

We keep planning on buying 2 40 gal tanks but they are not cheap. They have them at Tractor Supply. And probably hardware stores here too. They will be easier to haul around and place.


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## hiwall

Meerkat, I started out renting my tank(free rent). When the gas company decided to start charging rent, I shopped around and found that all gas companies here charged the same to buy the tanks. So I bought the one that was already here and hooked up. When you own your own tank you can shop around and buy propane(delivered) from any company.


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## Meerkat

hiwall said:


> Meerkat, I started out renting my tank(free rent). When the gas company decided to start charging rent, I shopped around and found that all gas companies here charged the same to buy the tanks. So I bought the one that was already here and hooked up. When you own your own tank you can shop around and buy propane(delivered) from any company.


I'll check into this. I get mad everytime I write that check for rent. Thanks for info.

Everytime we are going to buy a tank the money goes for something else. Now its our bus.


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## helicopter5472

If it's for your bus why don't you try a wrecking yard and ask if they have a wrecked motorhome. The tanks ride in the undercarriage. Look maybe for some old motorhome in the neighborhood that someone gave up on.


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## LincTex

Meerkat said:


> We keep planning on buying 2 40 gal tanks but they are not cheap.


I think you mean 40 POUND tanks (about $99 new). Please try to not confuse the two terms.

40 gallons of propane is around 180 pounds for just the gas itself, plus would be about another 100 pounds for the steel tank. I have never seen a "40 gallon" tank.

100 pound tanks (23.5 gallons) are $199 at TSC and Lowe's here, But I usually see them for about $50 to $100 on Craigslist. They are right around 70 pounds empty, so a full one is around 170 pounds.

A 40 pound tank would be around 70 pounds or so full (30 lbs for steel tank and 40 pounds of propane), and holds a bit under 9 gallons.


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## helicopter5472

I found someone selling some 57 gallon ones, I paid 200 for both, one was 3/4 full, made by Manchester, they are a little hard to man handle. I lay them on the side and roll them to location and reset them up. They are just spares. I have a extended hose fitting on my motorhome and can use them if I plan an extended stay somewhere.


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## LongRider

cowboyhermit said:


> Well 500L is not very much propane, don't forget a propane vehicle will get less mpg than a similar one burning gasoline, there is simply less energy.
> I don't know how much the "average" driver spends on fuel every year but I know a lot of people who drive 10's of thousands of kilometers every year, those are the one's would see the benefit.


Propane burns more efficiently. Though you are correct you do lose some horsepower 5% to 10%. There is some debate about mpg depending on you vehicle set up. Honestly on my truck I have not noticed a significant difference. But lets grant that you get better mileage with gas. Propane remains FAR more cost effective. There is far less engine wear, associated repairs and maintenance, with propane. I have an engine with over 150,000 miles whose cylinder walls looked brand spanking new. Oil routinely comes out clear as the day it was put in after 3,000 miles. Not to mention cost of propane vs gas. I just filled my tanks a month or so back at $1.87 a gallon, compared to $3.98 a gallon for premium in my bike. For a prepper propane is a far better way to go IMHO. Less parts and replacements needed to to be stock piled for engines that run propane. Propane is much easier and safer to store. While you are correct 500 gallons is not a lot of propane. With three 500 gallon tanks we expect to only have enough fuel for about five years of rationed power, which is why we are still looking for addition energy sources. Still I think it is a much better solution than gas or diesel


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## cowboyhermit

LongRider, I wasn't saying anything negative about propane fueled engines, burning propane has very few drawbacks. Whether or not a vehicle gets better or worse mileage depends on a lot of things, I was merely pointing out that propane has less energy on a volume basis (pound for pound there is much less difference) than gas, and diesel. Gasoline is about 35MJ/L, propane is around 25MJ/L.

Bobbb was asking about why someone would bother with a savings of only $.10/liter and while I agree on a 500L tank it would not be substantial I would barely consider 500L(130ish gallons) to be a "bulk" purchase. A lot of people burn much more fuel than that per year and the savings add up. 2000L(500gallons) is the minimum the fuel trucks want to deliver to a farm in our area these days, even on just that much fuel only $.10 comes out to $200.


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## Bobbb

OK, if you have a 2,000 liter tank on your property and you fill your truck with propane from that tank, then you can completely bypass the road taxes and if you put a lot of miles on your truck, then I guess I see the sense and the decision becomes more sound as the price of the road tax increases. Someone upthread mentioned that it costs about $350 to get the gear required to use fill your own truck from your own tank. What exactly is required?

Second question. Does it make sense to convert an old gasoline tractor to propane?


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## LongRider

cowboyhermit said:


> LongRider, I wasn't saying anything negative about propane fueled engines, burning propane has very few drawbacks. Whether or not a vehicle gets better or worse mileage depends on a lot of things, I was merely pointing out that propane has less energy on a volume basis (pound for pound there is much less difference) than gas, and diesel. Gasoline is about 35MJ/L, propane is around 25MJ/L.


I understood that, and not debating your info at all. Just pointing out that is not all that goes into the cost savings of propane.



cowboyhermit said:


> Bobbb was asking about why someone would bother with a savings of only $.10/liter .


Not quite understanding the 10¢ a liter savings as propane costs about half of the price of premium gas. I first learned about practical results of propane from a auto parts delivery guy who drove from Rapid City SD to the Pineridge Rez in SD daily over 200 miles per day. He used propane due to the enormous savings in both fuel and maintenance costs.



Bobbb said:


> Someone upthread mentioned that it costs about $350 to get the gear required to use fill your own truck from your own tank. What exactly is required?


That would have been me. It was about that eight years ago. All it is, is a hose and connecting nozzle, same as you see at the gas station or propane filling station. 


Bobbb said:


> Second question. Does it make sense to convert an old gasoline tractor to propane?


To me it would be, others will argue that it is cost prohibitive I think conversion kits run about $800, less if your engine is fuel injected because basically that is what a propane carb is. You also want steel seats for your valves and of course all the associated hoses and tanks. As I said complete kits run about $800. You can also get a set up to have your propane fuel cool your air intake thereby condensing your air intake improving your mileage and upping your HP. That is most commonly used in high performance diesel trucks. High performance diesel engines also use propane the way nitrous is used in a gas engine. To get the best results and the most out of the benefits of a propane conversion I'd do it as part of a rebuild. You are going to have the top end off anyway to set the steel valve seats, so you may as well do a complete rebuild IMO. That way you will be rid of all the carbon crud and wear that gas has caused. So your engine will run more efficiently and last much longer.


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## cowboyhermit

LongRider, the $0.10/liter difference was comparing taxed to untaxed fuel, for instance propane at the pumps for road use compared with propane delivered for heating and cooking. This varies by the area a person is in.

Bobbb, back in the day many tractors were offered with propane as an option, if one of those were available in your area it would be worth considering. Converting is usually doable, whether it is economical will depend on how much use you get out of the machine more than anything. One factor to consider is that propane requires a bigger tank to hold the same amount, not much of an issue with a truck but slightly tougher on a tractor. It is actually really easy to make a propane/diesel engine like LongRider touched on, but that's a whole other ball of wax.


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## BlueShoe

Several yrs back I checked delivery versus refill/pickup at their site during a seasonal time and it was much cheaper (for some reason) to have them deliver, but you had to have a 100 gal minimum. 100 gal minimum is small and they didn't care how many tanks you had to address to get to the minimum. Weird. I guess they were just weeding out the small tankers trying to fill a 20 lber on site.


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## LongRider

cowboyhermit said:


> LongRider, the $0.10/liter difference was comparing taxed to untaxed fuel, for instance propane at the pumps for road use compared with propa.


Oh OK thanks I missed that, hence my confusion. There is an even greater savings when you have it delivered, I think around here the smaller home tanks are about 250 gallon over the price you pay at a refill station to fill portable tanks. Pretty simple economics there. The propane delivery company is the one who likely supplies the local fill up station. In effect the wholesaler, the fill up station has to mark it up to make a profit. If you buy direct from the wholesaler you don't pay the mark up and of course there is a savings associated with volume. Our "hill" buys as a unit and so we get a group discount. The trucks have to only make one run out this way, so they save in time money and fuel. We get part of the savings passed on the us, I would get a discount if I filled all three of my tanks but I prefer to fill up each tank as it nears empty, that way I have at least 1,000 gallons on hand.


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## LincTex

LongRider said:


> Oil routinely comes out clear as the day it was put in after 3,000 miles.


Then I would NOT change it, unless a used oil analysis said to do so. 
I have been running the same synthetic Rotella oil in my Cummins since 2010 (about 20,000 miles) and the results say "leave it, it's fine". If my oil looked that good at 3,000, I would run synthetic and never change it (please send it to me!). I have seen Cat engines in big rigs go 100,000 miles on synthetic oil. It's wasteful to change it if the oil analysis says not to.



Bobbb said:


> Does it make sense to convert an old gasoline tractor to propane?


Depends on where you are.
In central Texas, I see propane powered tractors selling as low as $200 for something that needs major work, but the tank, regulator, carb, etc. are all there and in good shape. Propane tractors used to be VERY common in Texas. I know of a Farmall M with a stuck engine (on propane) because it was left out in the rain, with decent tires for $400.



LongRider said:


> You are going to have the top end off anyway to set the steel valve seats, so you may as well do a complete rebuild IMO.


I know of a lot of old tractors on propane with umpteen thousand hours on them, and I do not believe (though I would have to research this) that their valves are all fine. If you run synthetic lube, you would likely get just a touch of oil past the guides that should be enough to keep the seats lubricated.


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## LongRider

LincTex said:


> Then I would NOT change it, unless a used oil analysis said to do so.


I have never thought to have an oil analysis done so have no clue on how to even go about it. I do know the drive into town will likely cost nearly as much as the oil, so I don't see the point really. I tend to err on the side of caution with my engine maintenance. That said oil breaks down from heat and contamination from the carbon in the engine. The black color of used oil is from the carbon contamination, not heat. Barring carbon contamination the oil may still have broken down due to engine heat.



LincTex said:


> If my oil looked that good at 3,000, I would run synthetic and never change it (please send it to me!). I have seen Cat engines in big rigs go 100,000 miles on synthetic oil. It's wasteful to change it if the oil analysis says not to.


Sure but again I suspect that the postage delivery my gas and time will cost you more than the oil new.



LincTex said:


> I know of a lot of old tractors on propane with umpteen thousand hours on them, and I do not believe (though I would have to research this) that their valves are all fine.


Of course they already have decent valve seats from when they were converted or originally built. My statement about the valve seats was in reference to older gas engines being converted to propane. The valve seats come with most conversion kits so why no use them unless you have a newer engine with better valve seats than what is provided in the kit. 
Again my point was in reference to converting an existing gas engine, like my old 350's to propane. Something as I recall you were opposed to as you believed it was being cost prohibitive. When doing so you will get the most benefit from the conversion, if you do a rebuild and eliminate all the wear and tear from having burned gas in that engine.


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## LincTex

LongRider said:


> Sure but again I suspect that the postage delivery my gas and time will cost you more than the oil new.


No one said you had to make a special trip just to mail an oil sample. The kits are ordered online and it comes in the mail, and the envelope you send it off in is postage prepaid. It can all be done at your rural mailbox, and it's only $20. Just take a sample once a year, and send it when it's convenient. Don't always believe what oil companies say about changing your oil every 3,000 miles - they are in the business to sell oil, period. If it's that clean I doubt it needs to be changed (especially if synthetic).

??? I would imagine you drive to town more than once a year or you would never put 3,000 miles on your oil in your truck in the rest of your lifetime.

Now, in my Evo Softail I do every 2,000 because it does get pretty dirty. I also use small neodymium magnets between the holes in the oil filter to get any really fine iron particles.



LongRider said:


> Of course they already have decent valve seats from when they were converted or originally built.


No, not from originally built. Deere, Massey (Continental) and Farmall tractors often used the same head part numbers for propane and gasoline. Some Farmalls did have a higher compression head for propane engines. As far as I know, no changes were made to the seats from the factory (that is from a head rebuilder guy I know). The RPM's were too low and the valve spring seat pressure to low to make any difference.


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## LongRider

LincTex said:


> LongRider said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sure but again I suspect that the postage delivery my gas and time will cost you more than the oil new.
> 
> 
> 
> No one said you had to make a special trip just to mail an oil sample. The kits are ordered online and it comes in the mail, and the envelope you send it off in is postage prepaid. It can all be done at your rural mailbox, and it's only $20. Just take a sample once a year, and send it when it's convenient.
Click to expand...

What the hell are you talking about? You said. 


LincTex said:


> If my oil looked that good at 3,000, I would run synthetic and never change it *(please send it to me!).* I have seen Cat engines in big rigs go 100,000 miles on synthetic oil. It's wasteful to change it if the oil analysis says not to.


To which I responded


LongRider said:


> Sure but again I suspect that the postage delivery my gas and time will cost you more than the oil new.


Your reply makes no sense at all. That said you little $20 kit cost more money and time than replacing the oil. Apparently what you do not seem to grasp is the contamination (dirty black colored oil) is not the only reason oil needs to be replaced. Heat breaks down the viscosity of oil just because it is pretty and clean looking DOES NOT mean it is lubricating as it should. I have been working on engines for nearly fifty years, long before I could even drive legally. The very few dollars and minutes of my time it takes to replace my oil is well worth the money to me. BOEING engineers, to run of the mill mechanics, race car and motorcycles racers all agree with me keeping your oil changed is the CHEAPEST MOST effective way to protect you engine and keep it running at peak efficiency. Please do as you please use all the little kits you like. I'll pass I prefer KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid). To me 

Spending $20, $40 or more dollars added to every oil change is a waste IMO
Driving into town to pick up your little kit at the post office (Do not assume we have a mailbox I live in the sticks.) 
Going back home to get an oil sample for your little kit
Driving back into town to send off your little oil sample.
Not driving the car/truck/bike until I get the results, rather than risk undue wear and tear in case the oil does need changing.
Driving back into town to pick up the results in the mail
Than changing the oil because the results say it is needed
Is a way to complicated waste of time and money for me. AGAIN, please use all the little kits you like, thank you for the suggestion. Continuing to harp on your one true way will change nothing. Back to what I said sending you my used oil is a waste of my time and money, even if I wanted too.



LincTex said:


> LongRider said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course they already have decent valve seats from when they were converted or originally built. My statement about the valve seats was in reference to older gas engines being converted to propane. The valve seats come with most conversion kits so why no use them unless you have a newer engine with better valve seats than what is provided in the kit.
> Again my point was in reference to converting an existing gas engine, like my old 350's to propane. Something as I recall you were opposed to as you believed it was being cost prohibitive. When doing so you will get the most benefit from the conversion, if you do a rebuild and eliminate all the wear and tear from having burned gas in that engine.
> 
> 
> 
> No, not from originally built. Deere, Massey (Continental) and Farmall tractors often used the same head part numbers for propane and gasoline. Some Farmalls did have a higher compression head for propane engines. As far as I know, no changes were made to the seats from the factory (that is from a head rebuilder guy I know). The RPM's were too low and the valve spring seat pressure to low to make any difference.
Click to expand...

Well than your head builder is an complete moron and not qualified to give head as his premise is irreverent RPMs and valve spring seat pressure has nothing to do with why you want either newer valves or need to replace them in older engines being converted to propane
In closing I will say you seem to know a lot about propane engines considering that just recently you went on for quite a bit making it clear you do not run any propane engines as you believe the conversions and use of propane engines was cost prohibitive. If you like I can provide you with the links and posts if you'd like to reread them. I have.


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## LincTex

You are starting to really confuse me - it seems like you are not reading some of the things I have typed.

Well, first off - you didn't make it clear that the cost of postage was in ref to the used oil itself (or I maybe missed that point). I was trying to state that mailing the sample kit was cheap (or even prepaid). 
Why do you once again seem to make reference to having to make a special trip into town?? You don't combine errands when you make a trip? I would have an awful hard time believing that.

And you obviously make a trip pretty often... since you manage to put 3,000 miles on an oil change driving "somewhere". Where are you going that takes 3,000 miles to get to if you are never driving to town to check your mail?

As well, you don't seem to understand how the used oil analysis "process/trending" system works. It isn't anything like what you described your perception of how UOA process works - I never said anything about making a special trip being necessary, or "Not driving the car/truck/bike until I get the results, rather than risk undue wear and tear in case the oil does need changing". That is completely off the path of where you should be thinking..... That's along the lines of "not eating a canned good the day after the expiration date", because magically after the stroke of midnight the item is no longer safe to eat?!?!!? You know as well as I do that it would be insane to think along those lines.

It would also be insane to think that changing your oil at the 3,000 mile mark is fine and good, but waiting until 3,001 miles means all the oil in your crankcase just instantly became bad?

What about at 3,500 miles? Will your engine seize up and turn into a tarball with oil that has 4,000 miles on it? Of course not!!!

*What makes you think 3,000 miles is a good number for you to use anyway?* Why not 5,000 miles? What does your owner's manual say about how often you should change your oil? Did Chevy add a special appendix to the manual for "propane fueled engine operations"? If not, don't you think you should do the research that tells you what mileage you SHOULD put on your oil when running propane and NOT gasoline? http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=19076

You also don't seem to understand where I am coming from - - - you are NOT going to do an oil change in a diesel truck with synthetic oil for $20 - no way in hell. Sometimes the oil filter alone is that much. If you have a plain vanilla Chevy 350 that uses a $3 filter and you change oil that costs $2 a quart, then sure, I can see that you would have no need for a used oil analysis kit. I also still stand firm that you are wasting a lot of money on oil changes at 3,000 miles if it isn't getting dirty. Don't believe for a SECOND that your oil temps are too high and causing thermal breakdown in 3,000 miles, because I sure don't believe that.

My whole point about you doing a used oil analysis was so that you would find out whether the oil change interval you have chosen was overly conservative or not. I believe you are changing far too frequently with *NO* benefit other than a lighter weight wallet.

BOEING engineers aren't that great of a source of info... We have engineers at work that used to work at Boeing and I help them to do their job all the time, so don't think for second that I think they are infallible. In fact, throwing that little bit of info out actually hurts your argument since the engineers I work with on a daily basis usually come to me for advice.

BUT, since you decided to throw out the aerospace card (an industry I have been in for over 30 years) did you know that jet turbine engines NEVER have their oil changed?? Well at least not until an oil analysts says to do so!!  Yes, that is correct. I have all the engine documentation for oil change intervals from Roll-Royce, General Electric and Allison sitting on the desk about three feet from my keyboard. If you lose oil during maintenance (like a gearbox change or something) then you replenish what you lost, otherwise they change the filters only and run the oil forever. http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/287212/

Anyways, enough of that....
My experience with propane engine is forklifts, irrigation pumps and gensets, and a smattering of tractors, combines (yep, an ol' Deere 95), and a few fleet trucks. I own one Onan genset that is set up for natural gas opns. I can tweak one adjustable metering orifice on the demand regulator and run it on propane if I wish to.

I would venture a guess that probably 90% or more engines that start off on gasoline (and get converted to propane later) don't get their valve seats changed.... a don't for a very long time - and then only if needed. I think it is very cost prohibitive to change valve seats on an engine that doesn't need them yet.

You are completely nuts if you think RPM has nothing to do with valve service life. Low RPM engines like tractors don't need hardened seats, even on propane (though it can't hurt anything) for Pete's sake I can take the valve springs off without even needing a valve spring compressor! That's less than 50 lbs of seat pressure. AND farmers *will* bitch if something is bad for them or their equipment - - - - and I have NEVER heard a farmer complain about bad valve seats in a propane powered tractor. Most propane powered tractors around here started life as a gas tractor and were converted to propane later.



LongRider said:


> you believe the conversions and use of propane engines was cost prohibitive


Yes, I still do - for the average person. It takes a very long time to earn back your savings on a conversion (several thousands of dollars) if a person starts with nothing and buys everything new. That was the point I was trying to make. Not many people can commit to buying the conversion and all the support equipment needed to refuel. Besides, it is a large "upfront" cost to convert a vehicle and buy bulk tanks with a wet line, and a lot of folks can't budget that. It does make a lot of sense for fleet owners and rural folks. Add it all up and write it on a piece of paper and show it to random "common" folks and see how positive (or not) their reaction is. You can save money in the long run, it's just that it does take a while to get there.


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