# Getting Robbed/Abducted at Gunpoint Is this Generally True?



## PeachesBackwards (Sep 8, 2015)

Just read this somewhere else as I was trying to see if there are any crime statistics and odds for what to do if you were in a certain situation. Someone commented "A cop I know told me that I should run like hell if anyone ever tries to abduct me at gunpoint. *He said that once you get something like 20' away from the person they have a 90% chance of missing you with a handgun.
*

Is this a good general rule of thumb, that the odds of getting hit by a bullet from a handgun 20 feet away especially when running away are 10% or less? Don't know anything about guns at this stage which is why I'm asking. Thanks for your input.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

It's amazing how much influence on common sense that TV and movies can have on us.

The fatal flaw in that scenario is that the abductor can run too. So you will never be 20 feet away. Also, in most cases he will probably be on drugs and as soon as you pull away he'll shoot.

I watched a video at a 7-11 of a women coming out of the store and a guy grabbing her and trying to rip her clothes off, she got away and started running. before she got to the other side of the store he was on top of her again. There are only a few people in good enough shape to out run most.

Ya, in the movies they always get away, cars blow-up when they go off a cliff, and the bad guy misses the good guy in a 10' by 10' room with a fully automatic weapon. 

A smart person will be aware of their surroundings and not let themselves get into these situations in the first place.


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## dademoss (Aug 6, 2011)

How long would it take you to run 7 yards? Remember, don't telegraph the move, and my average reaction time is under 400 milliseconds from thinking to gun goes off.

Do the math and decide for yourself, but like UncleJoe, 8 inches in 20 yards(60 feet, 3 times the distance you quote) is quite attainable for me.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

It's better to be shot than be abducted at gunpoint. There have been cases of women being held captive that were raped and tortured for YEARS.


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## backlash (Nov 11, 2008)

I would run. What other options are there?
Stand there and get abducted or shot point blank.
Running might not save you but it's better than doing nothing.
As for hitting an 8" target at 20 yards that's great. Now try it when your amped up on drugs or adrenaline and your target is moving.
How many bad guys spend any amount of time at the range getting proficient at shooting?
Run Forest run.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

The most important thing to recognize is that a criminal trying to abduct you will always take you someplace that's advantageous to *them*. *The best option to escape is before he takes you away*. You will *never* have a better chance of escape than you do at the moment.

The second most important thing to remember is that trained police officers have less than a 20 percent hit rate in a firefight. Few crooks can attain that. Few people do any better _under stressful conditions_. Moving targets are extremely hard to hit. Especially if the "victim" is aware and took off running at the first sign of a problem.

Third, the criminal already is two steps ahead of you because he has a plan worked out already. You have to formulate a plan which takes time. Time is not on your side. Always work on situational awareness and be forming a plan in your mind of what you would do if ________ happens. That way when it does you aren't trying to decide what to do. You are doing it. (For example, do you know where the emergency exits are as soon as you enter a building? What about potential weapons, fire extinguishers, garden tools, household chemicals, etc. Be aware of your surroundings at all times and be ready to act on a moment's notice.) Trust your instincts and do not be worried about offending strangers (especially!!!).

We sat down in a McDonalds in Chicago once to have a meal. (We were waiting for our train to depart in an hour.) A stranger had the audacity to sit down at our table. He said very quickly that he didn't want money then immediately asked if we'd buy him some food. My instant reply, in a loud voice, was "No I'm not going to buy you any food." He was gone before I finished speaking. (I also had my "always with me companion" out and cupped in my hand with the blade extended.) Crooks don't like to draw attention to themselves so you should always do it for them.

The number one fear of a criminal is getting caught. Even if he has a gun he doesn't want to shoot it because guns are loud and people always look. He doesn't like "victims" to draw attention to him either. You should yell loudly, "fire" and keep yelling it. Many people will ignore screams or cries for help out of fear but most everyone will look for a fire. If someone calls 911 to report a fire that's okay too. Cops always respond to fires.

Criminals want calm victims so they will always try to reassure you that if you come quietly you will not be harmed. Criminals lie. Once he has you where there is no help you are completely at his mercy. The very best chance of survival is to flee as fast as you can.

That's especially true if there are two or more of you. It runs against the grain of most men to run and leave a loved one in danger but there are countless stories of one person running back to help a friend then both becoming victims. Even for guys the best thing is to escape and get help. Remember the number one fear of criminals is getting caught. Your companion is far safer if the criminal is afraid there are witnesses and help is on the way.


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## Mase92 (Feb 4, 2013)

backlash said:


> I would run. What other options are there?
> Stand there and get abducted or shot point blank.
> Running might not save you but it's better than doing nothing.
> As for hitting an 8" target at 20 yards that's great. Now try it when your amped up on drugs or adrenaline and your target is moving.
> ...


Great post.

Tweto made some great points, but at the point when it's life and death, what options do you have? Fight or flight.

The average person moves 21 feet in a second in a half. That's 21 feet of time/distance you bought yourself. While Uncle Joe and others can consistently hit a static target at that distance, they are practiced and trained shooters. There are simply too many variables in this to but food for thought: A gun can jam, the shot placement might be off, they could slip or they might not have a loaded gun. About 75% of people shot with a hang gun survive.

Here's the only thing I know too be true in this: You either fight or flight for your life or there is a point blank shot coming at you, probably a few so.... I'll take my chances in a certain death situation that distance in this case equal increased odds of living. I hope....


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

It is impossible to offer sound advice on a scenario this vague. Is the would-be kidnapper wearing a black suit with black leather gloves holding a suppressed German made pistol or a meth head with yellow teeth holding a rusty Taurus 92. That would make a huge difference to me. What are your cover/concealment options? Will you be running into a building or just down the sidewalk? Witnesses in the area? Are you armed? What kind of footwear did you choose that morning? Bad guy on foot or mobile? One would presume if this is an abduction that they are near or partially inside a vehicle or a residence/building. Why would someone want to abduct you? Are you good looking and would make good money on the sex slave market? Or are they a serial killer and you fit their target pattern? Is your Ex crazy and now it's time for their revenge? Is it Bill Clinton? Are you wearing a blue dress?

My advice is use good operational security [all the time], use good situational awareness [all the time], be ready, willing and able to go on the offensive [all the time], use tactical thinking and run "what if" scenarios in your mind [often] and if all that fails you [which is unlikely], then run as fast as you can as far as you can screaming as loud as you can. A bullet and the chance of survival is often a better option than [insert unimaginable worst case scenario here].


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

Never surrender. Never let someone tie you up, put you on your knees, or lead you in to a back room. Once you do these things you are relying on their kindly nature. Hello, they are pointing a gun at you, they don't have a kindly nature. The more violent the response the better. Get a gun, get some training, and if your State requires it get a CCW permit.

If you are already twenty feet away then it might work. This is where being alert to your surroundings will help.

If you run directly away from the shooter you are effectively a stationary target. Running at an angle makes you harder to shoot. Most right handed shooters miss to the left so running away, to the shooters right, at a 90˚ angle gives you the best odds if you decide that running is your best option. If you want even better odds, get a gun.

I recommend that you go to Gun Facts and download their PDF. It is over a hundred pages so if you don't feel comfortable going to a site you have never been to before, then don't. I just downloaded the newest version and had no probnjnvjqkebvu6dmfgr8gfkmrt83-. 

http://www.gunfacts.info


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

This is very easy to answer. It depends. Just like many above have stated. I am in fairly good shape but I have never been a runner. Not that I would hesitate to run if I was in this situation. If the opportunity presented itself I would up my chances by striking my opponent before I took off running. Hit him, kick him, throw up on him, anything to give you an edge. Then either run like an antelope until my lungs burst or stay and fight like a desperate wildcat. 
I used to teach simple self defense classes but the only thing I really taught was to NEVER give up. NEVER.


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## PeachesBackwards (Sep 8, 2015)

*What a Great Idea, Thanks*

While I hope never to get into this or a similar situation the idea of yelling "Fire" instead of ""Help" is pure genius and I thank you immensely. I never would have thought of that in a million years and surprisingly never read anywhere before of doing this. Some of you wonder why I am on Forums like this especially the dude who is keeps calling me "Troll" and this is why. Thank you once again.



mosquitomountainman said:


> The most important thing to recognize is that a criminal trying to abduct you will always take you someplace that's advantageous to *them*. *The best option to escape is before he takes you away*. You will *never* have a better chance of escape than you do at the moment.
> 
> The second most important thing to remember is that trained police officers have less than a 20 percent hit rate in a firefight. Few crooks can attain that. Few people do any better _under stressful conditions_. Moving targets are extremely hard to hit. Especially if the "victim" is aware and took off running at the first sign of a problem.
> 
> ...


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

PeachesBackwards said:


> While I hope never to get into this or a similar situation the idea of yelling "Fire" instead of ""Help" is pure genius and I thank you immensely. I never would have thought of that in a million years and surprisingly never read anywhere before of doing this. Some of you wonder why I am on Forums like this *especially the dude who is keeps calling me "Troll"* and this is why. Thank you once again.


I'm a woman and the 5 week old fetus growing in my uterus will verify that I was born a woman. That and the cesarean scar from my first child below my bikini line.

Troll.


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## fteter (May 23, 2014)

PeachesBackwards said:


> Just read this somewhere else as I was trying to see if there are any crime statistics and odds for what to do if you were in a certain situation. Someone commented "A cop I know told me that I should run like hell if anyone ever tries to abduct me at gunpoint. *He said that once you get something like 20' away from the person they have a 90% chance of missing you with a handgun.
> *
> 
> Is this a good general rule of thumb, that the odds of getting hit by a bullet from a handgun 20 feet away especially when running away are 10% or less? Don't know anything about guns at this stage which is why I'm asking. Thanks for your input.


I'm skeptical, if only because this sounds like some confusion or misapplication of information coming from the Tueller Drill: a self-defense training exercise to prepare against a short-range knife attack when armed only with a holstered handgun.

The drill originated in the early 1980s when Sergeant Dennis Tueller, of the Salt Lake City, Utah Police Department wondered how quickly an attacker with a knife could cover 21 feet, so he timed volunteers as they raced to stab the target. He determined that it could be done in 1.5 seconds. These results were first published as an article in SWAT magazine in 1983 and in a police training video by the same title, "How Close is Too Close?"

The real issue in a Tueller scenario is not whether you can hit a target at 20 feet when they're running away. It's whether you can pull your firearm and hit the target quickly enough while functioning under the stress of an on-rushing attack at close quarters.

While running away is probably the best option in most scenarios, I doubt that your odds of getting away unscathed are 90% at 20 feet if the shooter has any experience and an unobstructed field of vision.


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## fteter (May 23, 2014)

Oh, one more thing: Grimm, congratulations!!! Hope the pregnancy goes well.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

I still think the OP is a TROLL for a few very simple reasons.

1. OP claims to have lived in New York City in the past but as most of us know it is not the safest place to walk down the street with your head in the clouds.

2. OP claims to currently live and work in Los Angeles. As we all know this is also not a safe city to walk in with your head tucked firmly up your butt.

3. OP's responses to people calling him on his BS in other threads are enough to have gotten him banned but for some reason the twit is still here. Those responses contained lots of vulgar language. The OP did go back and edit the posts many times to stay out of trouble.

4. The OP now claims to be retired but still living in Los Angeles. YEAH RIGHT. No retired person living on a pension can afford to live there! My parents are retired and live near LA County. Studio apartments are about 2K a month in LA. 
https://losangeles.craigslist.org/search/apa?is_paid=all&search_distance_type=mi&query=studio


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

On a side note, the whole FIRE! versus HELP! things was true in the 1970's but not so much today. Probably get more people's attention by shouting "GUN!" or maybe "RACIST!".


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## Balls004 (Feb 28, 2015)

Absolutely no strategy or action is 100% effective in this or any other scenario anyone here proposes. Nothing I've read here is a bad idea, but you do have to keep in mind that once initiated, your options become much more limited. Ideally, don't let yourself get boxed in to limited options, but if you do for whatever reason, surrender never is the best option.

If you haven't read about, trained or heard of the OODA loop, do so. If you are facing a gun or a knife, and don't know what getting off the "X" is, find out how to. If what is on your phone is more important to you than your life or your family, you might ought to re-evaluate your priorities. The difference between a victor and a victim is usually just training and mindset. Sometimes it still goes wrong, but at least you were trying...


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

BillS said:


> It's better to be shot than be abducted at gunpoint. There have been cases of women being held captive that were raped and tortured for YEARS.


Being shot does not stop an abduction. Or for that mater being shot doesn't stop a rape or torture.


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## PeachesBackwards (Sep 8, 2015)

Balls004 said:


> Absolutely no strategy or action is 100% effective in this or any other scenario anyone here proposes. Nothing I've read here is a bad idea, but you do have to keep in mind that once initiated, your options become much more limited. Ideally, don't let yourself get boxed in to limited options, but if you do for whatever reason, surrender never is the best option.
> 
> If you haven't read about, trained or heard of the OODA loop, do so. If you are facing a gun or a knife, and don't know what getting off the "X" is, find out how to. If what is on your phone is more important to you than your life or your family, you might ought to re-evaluate your priorities. The difference between a victor and a victim is usually just training and mindset. Sometimes it still goes wrong, but at least you were trying...


Yeah OK. Will look up OODA. While there is no 100% guarantee of any strategy, the point for me is to have some different strategies available for reference instead of none. Again and this is not directed at you but its better to gather as much information on things from others that you haven't gathered yourself to help you make informed decisions on related matters should you find it necessary in the future.


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## Country Living (Dec 15, 2009)

Grimm said:


> I'm a woman and the 5 week old fetus growing in my uterus will verify that I was born a woman. That and the cesarean scar from my first child below my bikini line.
> 
> Troll.


Congrats! If you're looking for names....Lil' Country Grimm has a nice ring to it...


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

I suggest a name that's ripe with nick-names and initials that he can choose himself!

AJ can be Andrew Jackson, Arley Joseph, etc


I wanted to name my kids after my grandparents but that never happened, such is life! Congratulations on the new baby and best wishes!


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

Grimm said:


> I still think the OP is a TROLL for a few very simple reasons.
> 
> 1. OP claims to have lived in New York City in the past but as most of us know it is not the safest place to walk down the street with your head in the clouds.
> 
> ...


I'm still waiting for the OP to make a contribution of any kind to this site. Asking questions is fine; asking questions that have already been answered in other threads multiple times is not.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Police*

When I was a Deputy Sheriff, we were taught, when confronted by a subject with a gun, to retreat to cover while returning fire.

The purpose of this was to increase the odds of your assailant missing, while you,(someone who trains regularly), would stand a better chance of hitting him ,than he of hitting you.

If you are not armed, and you just run, for every eight feet you put between you and the average thug, you increase the odds of him missing you exponentially .

Even if he runs after you, you have put him in the position of having to shoot while running. This makes him likely to miss.

Stats say that if you simply run, he has only a fifteen percent chance of hitting you and a two percent of the hit being fatal .

It is my sincere belief that anything beats a point blank shootout. That is usually a lose/ lose scenario.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

Tweto said:


> Being shot does not stop an abduction. Or for that mater being shot doesn't stop a rape or torture.


It makes it a lot less likely. Leaving a blood trail into someone's vehicle and on their clothing makes abduction less appealing. Besides, just the sound of gunfire could bring unwelcome attention.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

BillS said:


> It makes it a lot less likely. Leaving a blood trail into someone's vehicle and on their clothing makes abduction less appealing. Besides, just the sound of gunfire could bring unwelcome attention.


You are assuming that the attack is taking place where there are people close enough to hear and or care if there is a gun shot. Where I live in the country, gun shots are very common and I don't even look to see where it's coming from. Almost every week I see a news report of a shooting in the inner city and some one says they didn't hear or see anything and the next door neighbor was shot in his yard 12 times.

Yes being shot does make abduction less likely but not out of the question.


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## oldasrocks (Jun 30, 2012)

I once hit a running rabbit in the back of the head at 50 yards running away from me with a quick draw of a .22 revolver. No blind luck of course. Shuda see the look on the faces of my hunting buddies.

Point being you're bigger than a rabbit and slower. The bad guy may get lucky too.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

oldasrocks said:


> I once hit a running rabbit in the back of the head at 50 yards running away from me with a quick draw of a .22 revolver. No blind luck of course. Shuda see the look on the faces of my hunting buddies.
> 
> Point being you're bigger than a rabbit and slower. The bad guy may get lucky too.


I guess a person could just stand still and wet their pants and/or submit or they can act and take their chances.


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## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

Sentry18 said:


> On a side note, the whole FIRE! versus HELP! things was true in the 1970's but not so much today. Probably get more people's attention by shouting "GUN!" or maybe "RACIST!".


When I lived in Camden, N.J. we would yell, "...what you looking at white boy!..." That got everyone's attention.

Also try: "Is that Elvis?" (replace with a popular celebrity)

Republican! Conservative!

I see where this is going...hijacking and derailing a thread and in front of a cop!


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

BillM said:


> When I was a Deputy Sheriff, we were taught, when confronted by a subject with a gun, to retreat to cover while returning fire.
> 
> The purpose of this was to increase the odds of your assailant missing, while you,(someone who trains regularly), would stand a better chance of hitting him ,than he of hitting you.
> 
> ...


I can't do that. My brain doesn't work that way.

i don't do flight, if I'm there I FIGHT, and I'll do what I can to the bad guy(s) as long as I can. yep, that means maybe I lose... maybe. I want that chance to WIN! to hell with them.

nobody knows what happens next when SHTF, shooting ppl isn't fun, being interviewed/interrogated isn't fun, but if you defend yourself its because the bad guy made the event happen, not you!

get a GOOD, REALLY GOOD LAWYER. Ideally have them in your phone already and call them immediately even before calling 911 (assuming you're safe from other attackers)

you will need IMMEDIATE representation. They need to be activated immediately, and you should say NOTHING. "Everything you say can and will be used against you."

YOu're better off saying NOTHING!!!!!

let the lawyers fight it out. you want a legal bill a lot more than you want a 10 year prison sentence because you said the wrong thing at the wrong time.

The most important part is that YOU ARE ALIVE! the bad guy? maybe, maybe not, but so what, that is their problem, and if they choose to do criminal actions then screw them, IM glad if someone takes them out permanently.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Secondary location*

If you ever allow an assailant to move you to a secondary location, even if it is to the back of a store or into a vehicle, the odds are that he is going to kill you. Run or fight . Even if you lose, you stand a better chance of living if you are found where the attack originally took place.


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## PeachesBackwards (Sep 8, 2015)

*Great Advice!*



BillM said:


> If you ever allow an assailant to move you to a secondary location, even if it is to the back of a store or into a vehicle, the odds are that he is going to kill you. Run or fight . Even if you lose, you stand a better chance of living if you are found where the attack originally took place.


Thanks Dude!


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## Mase92 (Feb 4, 2013)

BillM said:


> If you ever allow an assailant to move you to a secondary location, even if it is to the back of a store or into a vehicle, the odds are that he is going to kill you. Run or fight . Even if you lose, you stand a better chance of living if you are found where the attack originally took place.


I think that was lost on a few of the posters here. The OP question was about abduction and movement buying you time/safety. There was a question of distance equaling odds of staying alive. The majority have done well to describe the odds increasing when added distance comes into play.

Like with lots of threads the OP's question was missed for an opportunity for posters to proclaim they'd be the next action hero. Skipping answering the question or bringing anything of substance to the talk.

Thanks BillM for you solid answers on this question. It cleared it up a lot (so have a few others) :thumbraise:


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