# Anybody else hear this?



## Magus

I heard from this guy I know that the FCC wants to outmode/get rid of older CB radios because they can be used to jam a drone. is this for real or more rumors?:eyebulge:

Would explain how Iran got that one huh?


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## Startingout-Blair

Magus said:


> I heard from this guy I know that the FCC wants to outmode/get rid of older CB radios because they can be used to jam a drone. is this for real or more rumors?:eyebulge:
> 
> Would explain how Iran got that one huh?


Yes, I understand that quite a few state and local law enforcement and emergency-type services are going complete digital, which will supposedly render all older scanners useless. But as for CBs, I have not heard about it, but that may be true considering how they plan to increase usage of drones here in the States.


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## thoughtsofTHAtmom

So what would a move like that mean? (Can someone explain it to those of us who are technologically-challenged?)


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## k0xxx

I haven't heard anything about this. I'm not saying that it isn't true, because when the Feds are involved, any silliness can happen.

It would strike me as odd though, that a government drone would be operating within the 27 MHz band. I believe most decent R/C aircraft operate in the 72 MHz range, and some within the 6m Ham bands (50 MHz) for those with the license. 27 MHz is generally relegated to toys. There are also frequencies set aside in the 2.4 GHz band for R/C equipment. Also, there shouldn't be a difference between older CB gear and the newer ones. All operate on the same frequencies, and with the same power.

Again, when bureaucrats are involved, nothing and nobody is safe, but I'd be surprised if this is true.


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## Davarm

OK boys, lets sweep up all the old CB's and stockpile em! If the defense industry is dumb enough to make that mistake maybe we should prepare for it. If its just a story, no big loss, we'll have some back up comms.

Geeze, all those lists, I've gotta be on. Breaks my heart(NOT).


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## jsriley5

I can't even remember what they said the Rand D for one of those things are and then of course the cost to build them. I want some dumb MFerS head on a platter if they left them susceptible to common old CB radio wavesw. Sounds Like BS to me. But if you want to go out and point your cb at one realize it may use Radio tracking misslils that will ride right down on top of you


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## Clarice

I do know that CB's jam our TV reception. We live on a highway and the big trucks are on the move constantly and sometimes we can actually here what is being said. But every time one goes by our TV goes into pause mode very aggravating.


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## Magus

Maybe its the "boosted" ones? who knows? the guy was drunk but he "hears things" then mouths off after a pint or two.
sad thing is he's normally right!


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## k0xxx

Clarice said:


> I do know that CB's jam our TV reception. We live on a highway and the big trucks are on the move constantly and sometimes we can actually here what is being said. But every time one goes by our TV goes into pause mode very aggravating.


In most cases it's because of the cheap TV's, rather than the CB's. In the pursuit of making TVs (and most things) as cheaply as possible, they do not adequately shield them from RF interference and the "front end" get's overloaded from a nearby signal. Kinda like when a cell phone interferes with a nearby radio or computer speakers. My guess is that military equipment is at the very least somewhat shielded. If it can survive an EMP, is should survive a CB.


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## Padre

Don't you hate it when you have forgotten more than most other people ever knew....

I used to know all about the various frequencies and wave lengths but I haven't played with radios seriously in a long time. k0xxx is right, it would not make sense for most drones to work on a CB frequency. I believe most are operated by satellites via microwave, but the even for local drone control there is so much distortion on the CB bands and the frequency itself is so short range that I can't image that it is actually true that a CB could interfere with a drone. That doesn't mean a government goon knows that...


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## backlash

I have my doubts a CB radio could bring down a drone.
If that was true then every terrorist in the world would have one yelling
الكسارة الكسارة .
That's breaker breaker for us infidels.


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## FrankW

You cannot "jam" a drone with a CB radio.
It sounds like something a gov't bent on mischief would use as an excuse to deny citizens grid indepent COMMS.

As for LE digitilization,.... as military secure radios have come down in price may LE agencys can afford them now.

Part of this , drive for "OPSEC"


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## zombieresponder

Clarice said:


> I do know that CB's jam our TV reception. We live on a highway and the big trucks are on the move constantly and sometimes we can actually here what is being said. But every time one goes by our TV goes into pause mode very aggravating.


That's because most of them have illegally modified the radio for more power and/or are illegally using a linear amplifier.


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## BillS

I did a Google search. There's been talk of certain states banning the use of CB radios while driving. Nothing about a ban coming from the FCC for all CB's.


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## Magus

May be part of it.have yet to get my bud off the sauce long enough to get a solid answer.

Half his skull is a steel plate. eats enough pain killers in one dose that would kill a normal person too.
Wish I could remember his call sign, one of you hams might ask.


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## FrankW

Magus said:


> Half his skull is a steel plate. eats enough pain killers in one dose that would kill a normal person too.
> .


.

Hmmmm....


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## Magus

He was a formula driver after he retired the USAF.did not end well.


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## teotwaki

They won't interfere with a drone 
They are not in danger of being banned
But Magus may be getting another laugh over this....


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## Magus

Nope.I'm serious.


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## teotwaki

Magus said:


> Nope.I'm serious.


Okay, first off there is no FCC literature even hinting at eliminating CB. In fact, there is a lot of very ordinary "business as usual" applications from CB manufacturers to the FCC. See this link for an example of Uniden seeking a waiver to allow cordless microphone operation with their CB transceivers. http://www.fcc.gov/document/uniden-granted-waiver-allow-cordless-microphones-cb-radios

The FCC granted the waiver, not something that they would do if they were going to ban all CB operation, right?

Second on the issue of CB interference, there are lots of "drones" out there and I'd wager good money that most use a variety of different modulation styles and radio frequencies but they would share similar forms of RF protection such as spread spectrum and data protection with encryption and lost packet recovery techniques. About 3 years ago there was quite a scandal because the Predator's ground link was not encrypted. See this article: http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/200...pt-drone-video-in-king-sized-security-breach/

The Predator air vehicle and sensors are controlled from the ground station via a C-band line-of-sight data link during take off and a Ku-band satellite data link for beyond-line-of-sight operations.

CB is 27 MHz
C band is around 4,000 MHz (4 GHz)
Ku band is centered around 15,000 MHz (15 GHz)

C and Ku band frequencies allow for much smaller and much more directional antennas which is another way to eliminate deliberate interference. The 27 MHz CB band does not offer directionality without enormously large antennas and the signal strength over distance is greatly affected by atmospheric conditions.

None of this is meant to talk down to anyone but it is hard to skip some of the technical stuff entirely. PLEASE ask questions.

PS: The clever Iranians appear to have "tricked" our drone into a soft crash by feeding it a very strong fake GPS signal that made it think that it was at a higher altitude than it really was. GPS antennas are not too directional so this sort of spoofing is a real possibility.


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## jsriley5

would have thought the drone would be using the purportedly encrypted GPS signal that is strictly for millitary use or has that been done away with and if so why. Could be very very bad for aircraft manned that are flying in inclement weather I"d think as well. eek bad news.


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## Marcus

teotwaki said:


> PS: The clever Iranians appear to have "tricked" our drone into a soft crash by feeding it a very strong fake GPS signal that made it think that it was at a higher altitude than it really was. GPS antennas are not too directional so this sort of spoofing is a real possibility.


I recall seeing the video that a Texas professor posted showing how to do this. Basically if I remember correctly, they overpowered the GPS signal from the satellites using a local transmitter to transmit false GPS data in order to affect the drone they were using.


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## teotwaki

jsriley5 said:


> would have thought the drone would be using the purportedly encrypted GPS signal that is strictly for millitary use or has that been done away with and if so why. Could be very very bad for aircraft manned that are flying in inclement weather I"d think as well. eek bad news.


Military GPS receivers can use both encrypted and non-encrypted GPS broadcasts. In the absence of the higher-precision military signal the receiver would default to the standard lower-accuracy signal.


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## teotwaki

Marcus said:


> I recall seeing the video that a Texas professor posted showing how to do this. Basically if I remember correctly, they overpowered the GPS signal from the satellites using a local transmitter to transmit false GPS data in order to affect the drone they were using.


Exactly! Sort of like the loudest and most obnoxious guy screaming into his cell phone, distracting you with a signal that is much louder than the one you want to listen to.


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## Magus

teotwaki said:


> Okay, first off there is no FCC literature even hinting at eliminating CB. In fact, there is a lot of very ordinary "business as usual" applications from CB manufacturers to the FCC. See this link for an example of Uniden seeking a waiver to allow cordless microphone operation with their CB transceivers. http://www.fcc.gov/document/uniden-granted-waiver-allow-cordless-microphones-cb-radios
> 
> The FCC granted the waiver, not something that they would do if they were going to ban all CB operation, right?
> 
> Second on the issue of CB interference, there are lots of "drones" out there and I'd wager good money that most use a variety of different modulation styles and radio frequencies but they would share similar forms of RF protection such as spread spectrum and data protection with encryption and lost packet recovery techniques. About 3 years ago there was quite a scandal because the Predator's ground link was not encrypted. See this article: http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/200...pt-drone-video-in-king-sized-security-breach/
> 
> The Predator air vehicle and sensors are controlled from the ground station via a C-band line-of-sight data link during take off and a Ku-band satellite data link for beyond-line-of-sight operations.
> 
> CB is 27 MHz
> C band is around 4,000 MHz (4 GHz)
> Ku band is centered around 15,000 MHz (15 GHz)
> 
> C and Ku band frequencies allow for much smaller and much more directional antennas which is another way to eliminate deliberate interference. The 27 MHz CB band does not offer directionality without enormously large antennas and the signal strength over distance is greatly affected by atmospheric conditions.
> 
> None of this is meant to talk down to anyone but it is hard to skip some of the technical stuff entirely. PLEASE ask questions.
> 
> PS: The clever Iranians appear to have "tricked" our drone into a soft crash by feeding it a very strong fake GPS signal that made it think that it was at a higher altitude than it really was. GPS antennas are not too directional so this sort of spoofing is a real possibility.


Good enough for me.just wanted answers from other Ops NOT whacked on enough pain killers to overdose an elephant.


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## sundance23

This is not true at all. Citizens band radios do not occupy the same radio spectrum as "drones" would also cb is "amplitude modulation" where as radio control frequencies are in the "fm" higher frequency.


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## teotwaki

sundance23 said:


> This is not true at all. Citizens band radios do not occupy the same radio spectrum as "drones" would also cb is "amplitude modulation" where as radio control frequencies are in the "fm" higher frequency.


Even though I highly doubt they are using FM for a modern full sized drone, a very strong AM signal on the same frequency can overpower an FM signal. In fact, imagine an AM signal with no modulation, just a carrier. So if you listen to a local ham repeater when someone is yakking and just key up a stronger transmitter with no modulation, you will definitely interfere with the other guy's FM aignal.

FM would not support the bandwidth that they need for command and control of the typical Predator drone. FM is a form of angular modulation and so is phase shift keying (PSK) which can more efficiently handle higher bandwidths. It also allows digital compression and error correction techniques. Modern digital modulation formats are forms of PSK such as 8DPSK, QPSK, O-QPSK, MPSK, APSK and so on. Others that are available are MSK and SFSK.

tutorial here: http://electronicdesign.com/article...ng-Modern-Digital-Modulation-Techniques-64598


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## sundance23

Totally true. Actually i failed to remember this. Was about drones and not RC airplanes of the smaller kind.


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## zombieresponder

teotwaki said:


> Even though I highly doubt they are using FM for a modern full sized drone, a very strong AM signal on the same frequency can overpower an FM signal. In fact, imagine an AM signal with no modulation, just a carrier. So if you listen to a local ham repeater when someone is yakking and just key up a stronger transmitter with no modulation, you will definitely interfere with the other guy's FM aignal.
> 
> FM would not support the bandwidth that they need for command and control of the typical Predator drone. FM is a form of angular modulation and so is phase shift keying (PSK) which can more efficiently handle higher bandwidths. It also allows digital compression and error correction techniques. Modern digital modulation formats are forms of PSK such as 8DPSK, QPSK, O-QPSK, MPSK, APSK and so on. Others that are available are MSK and SFSK.
> 
> tutorial here: http://electronicdesign.com/article...ng-Modern-Digital-Modulation-Techniques-64598


When I saw this thread title again I happened to remember something, though not the specifics of it. _If_ I remember correctly, and _if_ I understand the drone control system properly, then it would be impossible(at least with my level of understanding) to affect a drone with an AM band radio. The AM frequency ranges don't penetrate the atmosphere of earth and are sort of "bent" back to earth. I know that 2m and 70cm will go through the atmosphere since nasa used 2m to communicate with the space shuttle and whatnot. I *think* the drones are controlled via a satellite link, so the frequency for the flight controls would have to penetrate the atmosphere. GPS signals obvious penetrate the atmosphere(though offhand I can't remember if they are UHF/VHF/etc.) and they are FM.

I'm not an RF engineer, but I'm guessing at some point you could create enough interference to interrupt flight controls and possibly the gps signal as well. I'd also guess you would have to output that interference through a directional antenna.


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