# Time to learn welding... please offer suggestions



## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

Hello, I have never really welded before, I have done it, but only like a few times under the guidance of people who actually knew what they were doing, and even that was mostly just for familiarity for me, not for expertise by any means and it as 25 years ago!


I'm thinking I want to buy a welding rig, and I'm willing to buy the tools and materials necessary to learn. Some will be cheap, some will be spendy... I know that. but I want to be able to do this kind of metal fabrication and repair in an isolated environment.

any suggestions you have on welding rigs, the rods, and stuff like that would be greatly appreciated


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## NavaBoer (Dec 5, 2013)

I would suggest buying a cheap arc welder. With arc welding you don't have to deal with gas cylinders or hoses/ gas equipment. All you will need is the welder itself and the rods which can be stored easily. Look some up on Craig's list people sell them cheap all the time as they mostly just sit around without use.


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## Country Living (Dec 15, 2009)

If you have a community college or a technical school nearby, see if they offer welding courses either for credit or as a continuing education course. That's a good way to learn the basics of all types of welding and to also get pointers on the different types of equipment.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

I welded for several years in junior high and high school with an AC-only machine we had on the farm. Then I got to try a DC machine, and oh my goodness, the difference is incredible with what you can do with it! To the point where I can't see why anyone would own an AC only machine.

The next step up from DC is wire feed (MIG)... this is a really big increase in price (both for the machine and supplies, but also upkeep/maintenance) but makes welds you will admire and want to dhow off to people.

When it comes to welding that is better than sex, it's TIG all the way. You can do anything with TIG, but it is an art form. I was once aerospace certified in TIG but let the cert expire when I changed jobs. The most beautiful and amazing welds you will ever see in your life are all TIG.

Having said all that, a decent DC welder and a bunch of E6011 rods and I can weld my way out of nearly any bad situation.

Harbor freight used to make a really good AC/DC unit called the ARC-180 but its discontinued... I don't know what took its place. It doesn't need some huge monster size electrical outlet.

Have a good riding lawnmower? Then you can do what I did - get a '75-'88 Ford or Lincoln "Large Case" alternator and make a welder out of it!

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/on-boardwelder/index.html

http://www.hobartwelders.com/weldtalk/archive/index.php/t-9695.html

http://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/173653-ford-alt-welder.html

http://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/85853-onboard-alternator-welder-writeup.html

The beauty of these is the ability to drive down to the end of the driveway where there is no power, and be able to reinforce your gate, or build a lookout tower, etc.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

I would suggest a local community college. Every college that teaches welding has a class for general welding (normally a night course). Some even have classes specific to home projects or art work. 

My primary welding process it T.I.G. (Tungsten Inert Gas). TIG gives you the ability to weld very thin material (.040") and material up to 1/4" thick. It will also weld steel, aluminum, stainless steel, etc. The down side is the expense. I have about $3500 in it. Worth every penny!

The next best would be Oxy-Acetylene. For about $500 you can weld a variety of steel and cast iron in a wide thickness range. This process is very slow, but allows a chance to do intricate work. Same as TIG.

The most common welding process at for home use is M.I.G. (Metal Inert Gas). this process will run about $1200 with gas. The advantage is the simplicity and does not require allot of thinking. MIG does have limited range normally steel welding only. Material thickness from 1/16" to 3/8".

Arc welding or stick welding is also common. It is very good for heavy steel work such as construction and welding that has to be done in difficult locations like at the top of a wind mill. This process does require a little more skill and knowledge of the process then MIG welding. Rod selection and the maintenance of the rods is required to do a good job. This process will cost about $500.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Tweto said:


> TIG gives you the ability to weld very thin material (.040")
> 
> The down side is the expense. I have about $3500 in it. Worth every penny!


I have welded two feeler gauges together with a Miller Synchrowave.... and they were a LOT thinner than .040"!! 
I used .020" stainless safety wire for filler rod.

Miller makes a little bitty "inverter technology" welder about the size of a lunchbox, I paid about $650 for mine many, many years ago. it goes down to about 15 amps... perfect for welding feeler gauges together!! Check out the Miller Econotig if you a really serious about this stuff...



Dakine said:


> but I want to be able to do this kind of metal fabrication and repair in an isolated environment.


The alternator welder is by far the best option here. Portability is amazing with the device, especially if you break it down into just the engine and also the frame/alternator, you could make two trips and carry it nearly anywhere.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

LincTex said:


> I have welded two feeler gauges together with a Miller Synchrowave.... and they were a LOT thinner than .040"!!
> I used .020" stainless safety wire for filler rod.


I have Miller Dialarc HF-P. The thinnest I have ever done is .040. Maybe I could do thinner but I have never needed to.

I knew when I was typing this that someone would come back and say they weld beer cans together. Oh well.

BTW I have seen that at welding shows.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Shooooot... I have welded .020" _ALUMINUM_ before. It wasn't so pretty though.

Steel thinner than .010" is easier to TIG than .020" aluminum, by a long shot.

I can weld .032" aluminum pretty easily... let me go find some old photos of my work, I know I have some somewhere.

We have a guy at the weld shop here at work that does .016" stainless every day. I am often the Q.C. guy that stamps off his work.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

Dakine said:


> Hello, I have never really welded before, I have done it, but only like a few times under the guidance of people who actually knew what they were doing, and even that was mostly just for familiarity for me, not for expertise by any means and it as 25 years ago!
> 
> I'm thinking I want to buy a welding rig, and I'm willing to buy the tools and materials necessary to learn. Some will be cheap, some will be spendy... I know that. but I want to be able to do this kind of metal fabrication and repair in an isolated environment.
> 
> any suggestions you have on welding rigs, the rods, and stuff like that would be greatly appreciated


So .. you wanna learn to weld.

Start with some bathroom reading: http://www.amazon.com/The-Haynes-Welding-Manual-John/dp/1563921103

Then move into the DVD-sets: 

http://www.whitehorsegear.com/covell-videos-mig-welding-dvd
http://www.whitehorsegear.com/mig-welding-findamentals-dvd
http://www.whitehorsegear.com/covell-videos-tig-welding-basics-dvd
http://www.whitehorsegear.com/tig-welding-fundamentals-dvd
http://www.whitehorsegear.com/advanced-tig-welding-dvd

Visit the help-sections of Miller and Lincoln welding sites

http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-ca/support/Pages/resources.aspx

... visit YouTube and watch lots of videos ...

and then once you have a good grasp of what is all involved, then consider spending the money on a good machine. I currently have three machines - a 110v MIG (Lincoln), a 220v MIG (Miller) and a 220v TIG (Miller). Out of the three machines, I would say that 90% of welding is done with my Miller MIG and 10% is mixed between the other two machines. The ease and versatility of my 220v MIG makes it my #1 choice.

There is a thread on here of me building a trailer from scratch - many of the pictures show my 220v Miller-MIG hot-glueing the parts-n-pieces together.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

None of you monkeys mentioned oxy acetylene welding, the ultimate learning tool. 

If you buy a commercial DC welder buy a Miller NOT a Lincoln, Lincoln is still riding on the SA300 pipe line welders coat tails. their low end stuff is just that low end. 

Miller makes a little portable multi power welder that works well.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

Tirediron said:


> None of you monkeys mentioned oxy acetylene welding, the ultimate learning tool.
> 
> If you buy a commercial DC welder buy a Miller NOT a Lincoln, Lincoln is still riding on the SA300 pipe line welders coat tails. their low end stuff is just that low end.
> 
> Miller makes a little portable multi power welder that works well.


Ok ... call me a monkey will ya! :eyebulge:

I had considered commenting about forge-welding and other forms of primitive welding, but, the original post made me think that Dakine was more interested in some of the modern versions, but, I didn't think that he was going with the thought of putting the money down for a truck-mounted diesel or gas powered machine to use - especially for learning how to lay out a good bead and get good penetration.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

Lots of good advice here. I have a small Lincoln wire welder that works okay for me. I use hollow core fluxed wire instead of gas. It came with a decent DVD teaching a person how to weld. 

The mask was junk so I bought a new mask when I bought the welder.

DO NOT buy one of those little 115 volt arc welders. These use fluxed rods like their larger 230 volt cousins. They'll work on small stuff but they're difficult to use. An experienced welder can weld with one but most experienced welders wouldn't use one.


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## oldasrocks (Jun 30, 2012)

mosquitomountainman said:


> Lots of good advice here. I have a small Lincoln wire welder that works okay for me. I use hollow core fluxed wire instead of gas. It came with a decent DVD teaching a person how to weld.
> 
> The mask was junk so I bought a new mask when I bought the welder.
> 
> DO NOT buy one of those little 115 volt arc welders. These use fluxed rods like their larger 230 volt cousins. They'll work on small stuff but they're difficult to use. An experienced welder can weld with one but most experienced welders wouldn't use one.


Excellent advice. I have a Miller 200 with a heliarc attachment and 250 wire feed. Between the 2 I can account for at least 15 tons of rod used.


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

Tirediron said:


> None of you monkeys mentioned oxy acetylene welding, the ultimate learning tool.
> 
> If you buy a commercial DC welder buy a Miller NOT a Lincoln, Lincoln is still riding on the SA300 pipe line welders coat tails. their low end stuff is just that low end.
> 
> Miller makes a little portable multi power welder that works well.


well, gas welding was mentioned but people advised DC would be the way to go for a newbie, cheaper, easier and better to learn.

The Miller welding rigs I'm seeing so far seem to be VERY spendy. I'm not looking to buy a Cadillac right now. Did I miss finding the entry level version? if you have a link that would be appreciated!


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

NaeKid said:


> Ok ... call me a monkey will ya! :eyebulge:
> 
> I had considered commenting about forge-welding and other forms of primitive welding, but, the original post made me think that Dakine was more interested in some of the modern versions, but, I didn't think that he was going with the thought of putting the money down for a truck-mounted diesel or gas powered machine to use - especially for learning how to lay out a good bead and get good penetration.
> 
> :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


EGGZACELY!!!!

Dakine wants to burn two pieces of metal together or cut sloppy holes into plate steel without electrocuting, detonating, or burning himself in the process. :wave:

Low cost, high results in that very small arena of battle are what I'm hoping for


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

Dakine said:


> EGGZACELY!!!!
> 
> Dakine wants to burn two pieces of metal together or cut sloppy holes into plate steel without electrocuting, detonating, or burning himself in the process. :wave:
> 
> Low cost, high results in that very small arena of battle are what I'm hoping for


I started with Oxy-Acetylene. When I went welding school they started with Oxy-Acetylene.

In the right hands, Oxy-Acetylene is more valuable then any of the other processes. You can weld, cut, temper, heat treat plastics, solder, silver solder, braze, cast iron, etc. The only things you can do with the other welding processes is weld.

Another advantage to welding with Oxy-Acetylene is the ability to slow it way down to see the keyhole. In order to get proper penetration the keyhole has to be there, if it isn't then more training may be needed.

BTW the keyhole should present in the root pass on all the processes, TIG, MIG, and SMAW.

Oxy-Acetylene is still used in up scale shops. I have never considered Oxy-Acetylene as a primitive process.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

I also forgot to mention...
three 12 volt batteries wired in series (36 volts) and a set of jumper cables makes a fairly decent DC welder for emergency repairs. 

Not something you would do everyday, but for an emergency it can be done.

If you can score an old alternator that works, and spend a couple hours mounting it to something that runs and wiring it up, that is probably the cheapest electric arc welder you can come up with. 

The old AC "buzz boxes" are not hard to find for a cheap price. I just don't prefer them.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Tweto said:


> I started with Oxy-Acetylene. When I went welding school they started with Oxy-Acetylene.
> 
> In the right hands, Oxy-Acetylene is more valuable then any of the other processes. You can weld, cut, temper, heat treat plastics, solder, silver solder, braze, cast iron, etc. The only things you can do with the other welding processes is weld.
> 
> ...


Well said SIR, when I was learning the process gas welding was the learning tool, it as you said slows the process, really shows the process teaches Keyhole control.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Dakine said:


> well, gas welding was mentioned but people advised DC would be the way to go for a newbie, cheaper, easier and better to learn.
> 
> The Miller welding rigs I'm seeing so far seem to be VERY spendy. I'm not looking to buy a Cadillac right now. Did I miss finding the entry level version? if you have a link that would be appreciated!


the trouble with cheap welders is that they are harder to use and get decent results with. A cheap AC buzz box can frustrate even seasoned journeymen, So a rookie trying to learn to weld with one is a bit of a nightmare.

A miller maxstar 150S is about $1100. new , a less portable Thunderbolt® XL 225/150 AC/DC is around $750.00
http://www.millerwelds.com/products/stick/

Look around on the local classifieds, often you can buy a barely used machine for less than 1/2 the price., because people give up easily.

Check into some local courses as mentioned before, try to get one that will teach basic SMAW (stick) welding, Migs (GMAW) make the process look too easy and don't teach you much, great tool once you know what you are doing but IMO a bad learning tool.

Check into renting a good quality machine for the learning process, you don't want to handy cap yourself with a poor machine that won't make decent welds in the hands of a pro making you think you can't weld.

If you choose the cheap way and buy a low buck A/C buzz box you need rod designed for that machine. 6011 is a good root pass penetration/quick freeze control rod. 7014 is good for clean flat position welds 7018AC is a good all around rod for repairs.

If you can get an old hand to teach you basic Gas welding take that opportunity, then move on to stick with the skills learned there.


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## oldasrocks (Jun 30, 2012)

Dakine said:


> well, gas welding was mentioned but people advised DC would be the way to go for a newbie, cheaper, easier and better to learn.
> 
> The Miller welding rigs I'm seeing so far seem to be VERY spendy. I'm not looking to buy a Cadillac right now. Did I miss finding the entry level version? if you have a link that would be appreciated!


So ignore everyone and buy a Lincoln buzzbox. little 220 AC welder. I learned on one many moons ago. They used to sell for about $90 in my day. Last I saw for sale they were about $400. They only have 20% duty cycle but that' enough for a beginner. Then find an old man you can help in his shop for pointers. My first 5yrs I thought my name was "You dumb fxxxxxx kid."` So I'm a slow learner.


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## sailaway (Mar 12, 2009)

Look at you local vocational high school and see if they have adult ed classes. I took mig, tig, stick1 and stick 2 for $180.00 a class each class was 3hrs. long and went 10 sesions. This was about 8 years ago, and I really didn't practice much so I would probably try to barter with someone to get a job done.

The local weld supply shop did have some nice discounts for us students. I would recomend an electronic face shield. 

I believe Lincoln and Miller are the same company now. A mig welder would be a good start, maybe 3/8" plate strength. I would also recomend investing in a plasma cutter that will do the same depth. You can probably make more with the plasma cuter for income. Good Luck & have fun. Sail


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## brucehylton (Nov 6, 2010)

I have an old Wilson buzz box that I learned to weld with when I was 10 years old. They don't make anything equal to it today that I know of. I cannot run a wire feed for snot. But I can weld some pretty thin auto body material with that old buzz box. I have come across probably 50 old buzz boxes at farm auctions in the last ten years. Most sell in the $50 - $75 range without leads. They will cost more. Look on Craigs list. Take a welding class if you can. For small jobs, gas welding can do. And don't let anyone convince you that you can't weld with propane gas. It is not easy, but can be done with a big enough tip. And just so you know, I will be 65 in May and my buzz box is older than I am.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

Ok .. now that we have had some fun teasing Dakine :teehee:


I started stick-welding with an old buzz-box that my dad had. It taught me alot. Then my 110v Lincoln mig-welder was found at a pawnshop. I think I paid about $100 for it - but - it was very well used. Cleaned it up, fixed a bunch of little things, loaded it with FluxCore wire and welded up a cart out of 16-wall square-tubing. That little welder has been going well for me for about 15 years now and has burned through a couple hundred pounds of mig-wire (purchased in the 11lb spools).


Which ever route you take to learn to weld (finding an old farmer, locating a retired professional welder, taking a class or self-teaching based on books and videos) - take your time to get comfortable with it all and test your welds before you start to trust them. It is one thing to weld a couple pieces of pipe together to make a fence and have it collapse ... its another thing to build a trailer and watch it fall to pieces behind your truck ... vract:


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

NaeKid said:


> take your time to get comfortable with it all and test your welds before you start to trust them. It is one thing to weld a couple pieces of pipe together to make a fence and have it collapse ... its another thing to build a trailer and watch it fall to pieces behind your truck ...


You can prevent that from happening.

Make your own "test coupons" and destroy them by bending them in a vice or beating them to death with a hammer. (both are fun to do, BTW)

THAT will tell you how strong your welds are!!


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

LincTex said:


> You can prevent that from happening.
> 
> Make your own "test coupons" and destroy them by bending them in a vice or beating them to death with a hammer. (both are fun to do, BTW)
> 
> THAT will tell you how strong your welds are!!


I'll second that suggestion!!!

In the past I have taught basic welding to others and that is one thing that I will do. Let them weld a simple angle, put it on the floor and tell them to stand on the area that they welded. If they land on the floor, they did it wrong :laugh:

If it passes that, I will drive a vehicle onto the angle and see if the weld holds. I don't care of the rest of the metal bends or whatever as long as the weld itself doesn't break. If that is still good - then we move on and practice other facets of the use of the hotglue gun. artydance:


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## cnsper (Sep 20, 2012)

When I took my first welding class we had to weld 1/2" steel together with a butt weld. The instructor would then stick it in a vice and break it to show you what was wrong with your weld....

Mine did not break..... I welded both sides.... 

7018 and 6011 are my go to rod types. I would rather use a stick welder than a MIG but then I am also welding heavier gauge steel and I don't feel I get the same penetration with the MIG. As for my welds, well lets say that they are only something a grinder could love,but, I have never had one break and that is what counts.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

I just looked at Dallas Craigslist for some examples of machines I would buy.... 

Holy Crap, are people really thinking their stuff is going to sell for those prices?!?!?!? 

Check Ebay and refine search by "nearest distance" and that should get you better luck.

Or just wire three 12 volt car batteries together


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

No grid power needed:






"Home-made stick welder. Not fancy, but does the trick, for little $$$."


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

A machine like the one on the you tube is a way better plan than a A/C buzz box, if the demo would have been done with 3/32 7018 the weld would have looked very nice. the machine was working well 6011 doesn't make a pretty weld but it has it's place.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

LincTex said:


> No grid power needed:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

NaeKid said:


> Love the looks of that project welder, but, for those who cannot source-out all the parts-n-piece, I found a professionally produced unit just like it that can be found on eBay for about $500 ...
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Powerland-100-AMP-Welder-600-W-Gas-Generator-6-5-HP-/111255594494
> 
> That might be a cool new tool for the garage :congrat:


$500 is a lot more than I thought I'd have to get into for this, but as with lots of projects I learn how much I didn't know, and taking that in consideration, I'd rather spend $500 once than $300 many times because "it was cheaper" and the numbers are... whatever. it's the principle thats matters. There's primary and backups, and I like the knowledge of building one from the ground up, but whenever possible, i want to buy the good one for the primary...


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## offgridcooker (Mar 5, 2012)

I have a sheet metal shop and I use a small 110 volt Lincoln mig for most everything. The trouble is the lack of penetration, but that is great for sheet metal and thin tubing. This welder is not large enough to build a trailer though. They also make a small 220 volt welder that should do most everything you need to do. The gas bottles are expensive but worth the cost. The also make an inner shield welding wire that has flux on the inside and needs no gas. If you go with gas get the largest bottle you can because they charge almost as much for to refill a small bottle. I use Tri mix gas is expensive but good because it will weld galvanized metal and it will also bond steel wire to stainless. I discovered this by accident when I forgot to change the wire to stainless. If you use gas make sure your connections are tight and don't forget to turn the gas off after use. I have wasted a few bottles of expensive gas this way.
If you need to go portable just use your generator, and keep your drop cord short as possible, use a 12 ga or thicker.
Setting up the equipment and parts is as important as the skill to weld. The right wire, gas, drop cord, wind, clean parts, welder setting a gap between thick parts is necessary, also a large enough circuit breaker. 
Tack weld everything in place before your final weld because the parts will move on you.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

NaeKid said:


> I found a professionally produced unit just like it that can be found on eBay for about $500 ...
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Powerland-100-AMP-Welder-600-W-Gas-Generator-6-5-HP-/111255594494


I have had mixed results with the Chinese stuff....

This baby is 10 times (or more) the machine that thing is but 1/3 the price! 

Too bad I don't live near West Edmeston, New York

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lincoln-225-Welder-Onan-Generator/191051499320


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

LincTex said:


> I have had mixed results with the Chinese stuff....
> 
> This baby is 10 times (or more) the machine that thing is but 1/3 the price!
> 
> ...


... but ....

That one is listed as being for parts-only (see attached .pdf from eBay)



> the welder appears to be in fair shape but has not run for some time and i have not had the time to work on it. i bought this way and have not ran it, needs welding leads engine turns over, selling as is


A friend of mine is a great motorcycle mechanic. He finds $500 motorbikes all the time on the local classifieds, fixes them up and then sells them off at "market-value" - he makes lots of cash that way in order to support his habit of buying-n-fixing motorbikes. Something like that would would be right up his alley (he is also a gun-smith, certified machinist and certified electrician - so he can make parts if required).

For me - looking at that eBay welder, I wouldn't even hazzard a guess on where to start. For me, I need to start with something that functions properly and if it breaks, then I have some knowledge on its function in order to fix it. I would hate for Dakine to spend time-n-money on something that "might" become good and become frustrated with it - but - on the other hand, if it craps-out, he will already know that beast inside-n-out.

:scratch Dakine - what do you think - cheap Chinese that runs or high-quality that doesn't currently work but might if enough resources are thrown at it ...

Your call.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

I agree...but it *IS* an old Lincoln, with a Onan engine! As long as it turns over I doubt there is much wrong with it 

Lincoln SA200's around here sell for $1500 with a BLOWN engine! 
Running (even poorly) will fetch $3000 

All the same, I would go for small/lightweight for maximum portability. 

Having a welder way out in "BFE" has saved my butt many times.


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## brucehylton (Nov 6, 2010)

Well to make it easy, come on by the house with a pick up or van. I have a Centennial 110 volt inner shield wire feed welder, a Lincoln "tombstone" type buzz box in like new condition, and an older Victor cutting torch set with owner bottles and a cart that I will let you have for $500.00. I will even throw in 50 lbs of welding rod and an older chinese made plasma cutter that needs a new switch. No shipping. This offer is "first come, first served".


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

brucehylton said:


> Well to make it easy, come on by the house with a pick up or van. I have a Centennial 110 volt inner shield wire feed welder, a Lincoln "tombstone" type buzz box in like new condition, and an older Victor cutting torch set with owner bottles and a cart that I will let you have for $500.00. I will even throw in 50 lbs of welding rod and an older chinese made plasma cutter that needs a new switch. No shipping. This offer is "first come, first served".


Nice deal ... too bad that I don't have my passport and I can't visit Toledo ... :brickwall:


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## shamrock75 (Aug 4, 2013)

*welding*

Learning some basics in a short period of time without outside help is easier than you think and has benefits.If you want the most versatile cheap welder then any stick welder will do,for a first welder go w/a plain cheap 110v welder you can plug in anywhere.3/32" and 1/16" 6013 rod is your best all around rod.You can weld in any position and you can weld rusty,dirty metal easily.For experience i'd still recommend a simple basic welding book but really all you need is time welding.Welding instructors and professional welders all have slightly differing oppinions on whats best and how you should do things so learning on your own can give you a solid base without straying from your own personal needs.Grab some metal and your safety gear(auto darkening helmet is recommended),and spend hours burning rod to develop what works for you to get the best results.Then do research and feel free to step up to higher end welders and seek additional skill levels as you see fit.I would recommend oxy/acetylene for your next venture though...


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

shamrock75 said:


> Learning some basics in a short period of time without outside help is easier than you think and has benefits.If you want the most versatile cheap welder then any stick welder will do,for a first welder go w/a plain cheap 110v welder you can plug in anywhere.3/32" and 1/16" 6013 rod is your best all around rod.You can weld in any position and you can weld rusty,dirty metal easily.For experience i'd still recommend a simple basic welding book but really all you need is time welding.Welding instructors and professional welders all have slightly differing oppinions on whats best and how you should do things so learning on your own can give you a solid base without straying from your own personal needs.Grab some metal and your safety gear(auto darkening helmet is recommended),and spend hours burning rod to develop what works for you to get the best results.Then do research and feel free to step up to higher end welders and seek additional skill levels as you see fit.I would recommend oxy/acetylene for your next venture though...


WHAT 6013 is crap. it is junk that make a half decent looking weak crack prone weld, Your advice about Oxy acetylene is spot on, the best way to really learn to weld by far


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

NaeKid said:


> ... but ....
> 
> :scratch Dakine - what do you think - cheap Chinese that runs or high-quality that doesn't currently work but might if enough resources are thrown at it ...
> 
> Your call.


I have no idea! 

right now welding and buying a serious grade chainsaw are fighting each other for expendable cash, however buying more PM's just stomped on both of them!

and in other threads I'm talking about my need/wants to build a rabbitry among other hobbies, all of which are ways to spend more money lol!

besides the equipment investment, my other problem with welding is someone skilled enough to teach a novice, which I thought I could find at my local community college but that is not the case...


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## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

The PM's will buy you what? Something you need in the future, right? 

How about buying what you will need in the future NOW and not taking the double haircut of buying and selling PM's for coin-of-the-realm so you can get what you want?

I own a little silver, but only because it is a speculative investment, like a hot stock that I think will give a good return. When that comes to pass I will dump the silver like a hot rock. 

And buy a diesel tractor, or some other useful thing. 

If you aren't that hot on welding, then get the chain saw, but the PM's would be at the absolute bottom of my list.

You can probably buy a used AC stick machine and get started welding for the price of a new chainsaw--$400 or so.

Edit to add: I just bought an 18" Echo saw, made in 2012 for $125. Low mileage, but needed a new chain. Plenty of saw for me. My old Miller 330A/B/S machine does AC/DC stick and TIG. Paid $75 for the machine and got it fixed for another $300. Leads cost a bundle, but they are 50 feet long. It was made in 1978 and still works just fine. Consider the longevity of a welder compared to, say, that last car you bought and the welder price looks a lot better.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

"A/C only" machines can usually be found for under $100 (with short leads) if you look around.


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

I have no clue how to weld, it is on the bucket list for the next year or so. But, and this is just a thought, wouldn't learning how to solder help some? It's cheap and is something like the same principle. Maybe?


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

A welder is not so much a stand-alone device. Sure you can cut with it but who does that? 
Realistically you are going to want a torch as well at the VERY least, then you want a grinder, vice, clamps, welding hammer, wire brushes, helmet, welding gloves. Then there are many things that a welder typically has that make production much more efficient like a chop saw, press, drill press, and on and on.

So if you don't have all that there are lots of cost involved other than the machine, also are you actually going to use it today, ie are you going to trust your welds in a critical application or are they going to be pretty enough? How much welding do you actually need done in a typical year? 
Given those factors, for someone with not much experience a chainsaw trumps a welder hands down imo.

But if it interests you at all why not pick up a torch and give that a try, that way it will give you the possibility to do many things (heat, cut, weld,solder/braze etc) and if you get into an electric welder you are going to want/need one anyways.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

JimMadsen said:


> ... this is just a thought, wouldn't learning how to solder help some? It's cheap and is something like the same principle. Maybe?


I have seen some AMAZING repairs done with solder by my grandfather over the years. In those days, you couldn't afford to buy, so you had to repair everything. It is a good skill to learn.

However, solder will NOT teach you the skills you need to do a proper weld.

Even though you are indeed "joining two metals", the similarities stops there.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

cowboyhermit said:


> Given those factors, for someone with not much experience a chainsaw trumps a welder hands down imo.


Sorry to disagree, but 99% of all my chainsaw work has been firewood prep, and that is not very creative. I have tried a little wood carving with a chainsaw and made some crude log shelters, but not much.

My welding résumé is *huge*, all the way up to full size flyable aircraft (that I have flown).

It would take days to list all of the unique welding projects I have done.

With an axe, I can live without a chainsaw (but won't be happy)

I can NOT imagine life where no welding is possible! I would be lost!


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

I think for someone who has experience a welder would be extremely valuable. I still think they would be wanting a lot more than just a welder though. Repair work without a torch would be strange.

A chainsaw on the other hand is useable as is, sure there are lots of things that are handy but they are not needed. Someone with no experience can pick up a saw and use it whereas welding requires an investment of time as well as money in tools and materials. If you are willing to invest I think it could pay great dividends but I still think you will want a torch.

And welding is always going to be possible, even if it involves a hammer and a fire


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

JimMadsen said:


> I have no clue how to weld, it is on the bucket list for the next year or so. But, and this is just a thought, wouldn't learning how to solder help some? It's cheap and is something like the same principle. Maybe?


Here at my work we have guys showing up with lots of documentation stating that they are certified to the nth degree in welding. We look over the paperwork and then put that down and point to some scrap metal and a couple of machines and tell them to lay some bead - butt-welds, corner welds, lap welds ... etc - various thicknesses and material-types (mild, stainless, alum).

Some can make the best looking and strong welds in heavy-plate (like 2") but when they start playing with 16guage, they turn that into swiss-cheese. Others can do just fine with the TIG, but, hand them a box of rod and you find their limits.

While solder has its uses, many welders cannot fix a circuit-board and many electronic-wizards cannot even guess on how to use a welding machine. There are some who can do both - but - that isn't the normal from what I have learned.

So - long story short - being good at one form of joining metal does not mean that someone will be good at joining all kinds of metal.


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

Good to know guys. Still a skill on my list. Thanks


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

I have been around welding all me life. In my profession, I hired and a fired welders. When I meet some one and they say they can weld, it starts into a bragging session on how great a welder they are. Anyone that has welded anything is a first class welder in their minds.

I always had a few simple questions for all the "welders". These are the simplest of questions.

1. tell me what 7018 means when it comes to welding rod?
2. can you do vertical up with 7018 rod? How about overhead welding?
3. Show me a keyway!

If they get past those then I ask.

4. What color tungsten do you use for aluminum welding?
5 How do you prep the tungsten before welding aluminum?
6 What color tungsten for steel?
7 What is a neutralized flame?
8. What is the safe way to weld galvanized steel?

I can ask a hundred more, but I have never meet anyone that got the first 3 correct. Any "welder" should be able to answer the first 3 without thinking.


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## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

1. 70,000 PSI tensile, low hydrogen rod, Ac or DC reverse polarity.

2. 7018 is an all position rod.

3. A keyway is the slot milled into a shaft, or broached into a hole to accept a key. I've cut a lot of them, but can't show you one without a part at hand. A keyway is NOT the little square thing that goes in the slot.

4. Red is standard. Some people use pure tungsten (green) on some machines.

5. Sharpen to a point then ball the end on DC+.

6. Black (Lanthanum) for AC or DC. 

7. A neutral flame is balanced oxy/acetylene, no excess of either one. Used for heating and welding. Excess Oxygen will oxidize the metal and excess acetylene will pollute the weld with carbon. 

8. Grind off the zinc, wear a positive pressure hood, and assure plenty of ventilation. Or, you can go for a stiff breeze at your back and hope for the best like most bird-splatter experts do it. Then drink a lot of milk for the "zinc chills" (flu like symptoms).


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## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

The best bang for the buck for simple home fabrication is probably still the old AC buzzbox machines. Or, you can go for a cheap MIG and use flux cored wire for low first cost, but higher cost of operation due to the wire cost. 

The merits of each process have been covered pretty well here. The old AC stick machines will not do what a $5,000 AC/DC/TIG machine will do. But, they don't require you to take out a new mortgage, either, and they are very durable. DC rods won't run on an AC machine, so be careful when you buy rods. 

If you as a beginner have a knowledgeable friend who can evaluate a used machine then that would be your lowest cost option if you do your shopping well and don't get in a hurry.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

I would expect the answer to 3 to be the keyhole is the controlled part of the leading edge of a gapped root pass in which one gets to show off their puddle control. for keyway refer to machinists definition

8. I thought that it had been determined that milk just prolonged the zinc chills, my answer to 8 would be if you want galvanized welded you weld it.

most people assume that a welder is going to be a good fabricator, but many times the welder while able to perform the actual process of joining metal very well has little understanding of the properties of metal and the design of structures.

an AC buzz box will make welds, but the rod selection is very important. for most people that rod would be a 7018 ac rod not 6011unless it is absolutely necessary to have a fast freezing puddle for keyhole control and will be capped with a low hydrogen pass. 6011 & and the good old (NOT) scabb rod 6013 have no hydrogen exclusion built into their design and the welds are prone to hydrogen inclusion cracking.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Tweto said:


> 8. What is the safe way to weld galvanized steel?


I usually grind/sand it off away from the weld, or sometimes just burn it off with a torch (with good ventilation).

Do you have another trick I should know?


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## PurpleHeartJarhead (Mar 23, 2014)

I know I am jumping in late to this thread. I just wanted to share that I am employed with a large manufacturing company with a lot of welders. I am a project manager and as such, I tend to be more office oriented these days. However, I have built a pretty good relationship with a few welding supervisors who are willing to spin me up on some basic welding skills. 

Next month, I will get a few lessons during lunch and a little bit after working hours. Pretty happy about that prospect too. Welding is an invaluable skill. Depending on some geographic and and environmental circumstances, I would say it is a top 10 skill to have in a post-SHTF world. Outside of those aforementioned circumstances, top 15.


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