# Need a thorny hedge for our garden



## goshengirl

We are in the process of fencing the perimeter of our five acres. That will keep some things out of our garden and orchard, but not everything. Our own dogs will be on our property, and our biggest concern is deer - they did a number on our orchard last year, no matter what repellant we used.

The orchard and garden are adjacent to each other, a combined area of 200ft x 140ft. A tall electric fence (solar) is one option, but I'm also wondering about a thorny hedge. I especially like the idea of something that would produce food as well as be a barrier. Something that grows fast would be important (may not get the job done this season, but not something that will take 10 years). Is it possible to keep out deer with a hedge? I know a fence should be at least 8ft tall (preferably 10) to keep out deer, but would a hedge need to be as tall since it would also have some width to it?

I think hedge-building might be worth looking into in general, as a deterrent for trespassers, and for privacy. What would be some recommended plants for designing a thorny hedge? I'd love to hear some names of specific varieties.


----------



## brucehylton

Blackberry


----------



## boomer

Just a fence will not work as deer will jump it unless very tall. Just a hedge will not work either as they will crawl through at the bottom. Open page wire at least 5 feet tall with bushes, at least 5 feet in width, generally inside the fence does work. Two five foot fences five feet apart also works. Great place for chickens. I think I have seen them called chicken moats.


----------



## cnsper

Put in a standard fence then line it with say hawthorn or blackberries etc.


----------



## Davarm

I dont know if it will grow up your way but you could consider Bamboo, not really thorny but it will grow dense enough(does here anyway) to keep out just out about anything more than ankle high.

It can get out of hand though, your next problem could be keeping it under control or getting rid of it.


----------



## ContinualHarvest

Don't go for the bamboo. It's invasive. A combination of fence and blackberry bushes could be the way to go. An added benefit you get to eat the berries.


----------



## goshengirl

Thanks for the recommendations. We have some great blackberries, but they're thornless. I need to look into thorny varieties. I've wondered about gooseberries, too - I think some are thornless, though. My other consideration is rugosa roses, I just don't know if they have significant thorns or not (but I hear they have great rose hips). Osage orange and black locust are both really thorny, but I'd rather have tall shrubs than trees (don't want to block anymore sun than necessary).

Davarm, bamboo does grow well here - a little too well.


----------



## Davarm

I've threatened several times to start a bamboo hedge to keep my neighbors dogs out of my yard. 

Invasive? Thats why I considered it, it would grow "both" directions from the property line!


Have you considered a vining rose or holly?


----------



## Viking

I've seen an old trick for deer fencing, leaning it outward at the top, deer tend to come very close to fences before jumping so the fence only needs to be just a bit taller than the deer to keep them from going over.


----------



## goshengirl

Davarm said:


> I've threatened several times to start a bamboo hedge to keep my neighbors dogs out of my yard.
> 
> Invasive? Thats why I considered it, it would grow "both" directions from the property line!
> 
> Have you considered a vining rose or holly?


I confess, I've thought about bamboo along the property line, right in front of the drug dealing neighbors' houses... 

I had not considered holly - that's a shrub that would certainly deter _me_. I'll check that out (height, growth rate, etc.)

As for the vining rose, I'm not real familiar with those. Are you thinking of them growing up a fence? Could a fence take that?


----------



## weedygarden

I would do a combination of fencing, thorny berry bushes and roses. 5 acres would be a lot of berries, but hey, SHTF, you could have plenty of berries to eat. I would plant a variety of berries, thorny raspberries, blackberries, and whatever else you can find. 

If you can find the right varieties of roses, they can grow long. Climbing roses would work and some varieties are not listed as climbing, but they are.

Bamboo: I wouldn't plant bamboo. You will spend the rest of your life trying to get rid of it.


----------



## txcatlady

Deer eat berry vines and roses


----------



## Servelan

Japanese barberry and its relatives. Attractive, but inch or longer thorns, and lots of them. 

Bamboo can be useful IF REPEAT IF you keep it controlled, but as a hedge or fence, I don't think so.


----------



## Davarm

goshengirl said:


> I confess, I've thought about bamboo along the property line, right in front of the drug dealing neighbors' houses...
> 
> I had not considered holly - that's a shrub that would certainly deter _me_. I'll check that out (height, growth rate, etc.)
> 
> As for the vining rose, I'm not real familiar with those. Are you thinking of them growing up a fence? Could a fence take that?


I've seen quite a few fence lines full of Vining/Climbing Roses, they would most definitely prove a deterrent once they were established.

You could plant some fast growing trees along the fence line to provide an additional framework for the vines and that would take some weight and strain off a fence, the tree would likely be completely engulfed over time and die out.

I did a quick search and found a site that shows many verities of the roses.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Climbing_roses

You could get a few established alnog the fence and start as many more as needed from cuttings - they are easy to do. In a few years you could have a formidable hedge that "I" most definitely wouldn't try to cross! lol

The attached picture has roses climing on a brick wall but I've seen them grow on anything that would support them.


----------



## camo2460

You might also think about Hawthorn trees. They can be trimmed to maintain a hedge type of growth, or allowed to grow into medium sized trees. An added benefit are the Haws, which not only are good to eat, have a high vitamin C content, and can be used as a tea or tincture to strengthen the heart


----------



## *Andi

The key is to maintain a hedge...

Research, research and a little more ... think flora rose.

Best of luck!


----------



## goshengirl

But, but, but Andi... this thread _is _my research.  (j/k)

When you say flora rose, do you mean of the multiflora variety? Geez Louise, don't want that! lol Spent the last three years getting rid of that stuff! (along with the bush honeysuckle) And yes, while the drug dealing neighbors tempt me to plant bamboo (and let it spread on their side of the property line :ignore, seeing the effects of invasive non-natives will keep me in check.


----------



## goshengirl

camo2460 said:


> You might also think about Hawthorn trees. They can be trimmed to maintain a hedge type of growth, or allowed to grow into medium sized trees. An added benefit are the Haws, which not only are good to eat, have a high vitamin C content, and can be used as a tea or tincture to strengthen the heart


I'll be planting a washington hawthorne this week (wanted it for medicinal purposes). I didn't know they could be trimmed/maintained as hedges - thanks for the suggestion!


----------



## goshengirl

Davarm said:


> You could get a few established alnog the fence and start as many more as needed from cuttings - they are easy to do.


That sounds wonderfully economical - just the sort of thing I'm looking for.  That image sure is beautiful, the way they drape over the side of that wall. Makes me want to have the kids dig a few tons of rocks out of the creek and build a wall for roses.


----------



## goshengirl

txcatlady, good point about the deer eating fruit and roses. I'm not concerned about the deer eating what's on the outside of the hedge (I figure there will be enough to go around). I just want to prevent them from getting on the inside of the hedge. 


weedy, the hedge isn't for the whole 5 acres (although I'm having a blast planting stuff darn near everywhere). The hedge is just to go around the garden/orchard, about 200 x 140 (ft), a smaller rectangle inside the property boundary. I'm leaning toward berries and roses (and looking into hawthornes) due to the fact that they all provide something (fruit and/or herbal medicine). The way I figure, we don't have to eat/use all the fruit (birds and other wildlife will gladly help with that) - but the fruit would be there if we needed it. Generally speaking, I like unusual native plants (such as aronia/chokeberry), but I also want thorns.


----------



## Saffer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carissa_macrocarpa










Carissa macrocarpa. If your climate allows it and you plant it dense, it will keep most things out.


----------



## Davarm

goshengirl said:


> Makes me want to have the kids dig a few tons of rocks out of the creek and build a wall for roses.


There goes their summer vacation! lol


----------



## goshengirl

What summer vacation? We're homeschoolers, we don't do summer vacation. <insert evil laugh>

Saffer, glad you mentioned the natal plums. I'm too far north (6a), but they may be a good option for southerners.


----------



## HardCider

A farm next to where I used to live did some research on fencing for deer. The most economical and effective was two electric fences set 4-5 feet apart. The other post about 2 page wire fences set 5 feet apart sounds like the same concept. Or one page wire fence and put a dog house and an attack dog loose inside to keep deer and the neighbors out


----------



## Davarm

goshengirl said:


> What summer vacation? We're homeschoolers, we don't do summer vacation. <insert evil laugh>
> 
> Saffer, glad you mentioned the natal plums. I'm too far north (6a), but they may be a good option for southerners.


Speaking of plums, do wild plums or "Mexican Plums" grow up there? I looked and they are supposed to be OK for all of zone 6.

They grow into dense thickets and produce some nice little fruits, they can be kinda like bamboo though if you're not careful.


----------



## crabapple

http://www.csoonline.com/article/21...-and-other-plants-that-deter-trespassing.html

http://www.doctorgreenfingers.co.uk/Gardening_Records_Archives/Garden_security.html

Andi right, research, some of these plant are worse then the deer.
The roots are like bamboo & the seedling come up ever where.
So look for the negative & you will find something you can live with.


----------



## weedygarden

*Why you do not want bamboo*



ContinualHarvest said:


> Don't go for the bamboo. It's invasive. A combination of fence and blackberry bushes could be the way to go. An added benefit you get to eat the berries.


My neighbor two houses away planted some bamboo, many decades ago. I asked him recently about it. He said he had no idea how bad it would be and now his next door neighbors have it. They are actually the place between us. When I bought my house 24 years ago, I had a patch of bamboo growing in the yard and I promptly got busy and dug it out. I didn't get it all right away, but I kept at it until I got it all.

The neighbors between us have it and are not resisting it at all. Guess what? It is trying to come back into my yard again. It has literally been coming up in my yard and through the fence, but there it is in their yard, right up to the fence. What can I expect? It sends out horizontal roots.

I went out to try to prune it back as there was lots of it. I have cut back a lot that was in the ground on their side, but through the fence on my side. It is right where I like to plant a patch of corn, but it was so dense, there was little sun getting through.

They have a house sitter this week who was gone during the day. I also sprayed the edge of their yard with round-up to try to force back the invasion of the bamboo as well as creeping bell-flower and violets.

No, no one wants bamboo.


----------



## cnsper

With hawthorne you also can use the thorns for sewing and with a little pitch for glue, a fishing hook.


----------



## crabapple

There is a clump bamboo that gets to about 24-36 inches in Diameter.
It will not spread like river bamboo, but it will not make a good fence. 
You would need a lot of clumps of bamboo to make a good fence, it would cost a lot to install.

https://www.onegreenworld.com/Bamboo/Dragon39sHead/2156/


----------



## karlsgunbunker

http://www.softgardening.com/post/61484889339/building-a-living-fence

I like this design done with Orange Osage. 
Back home in Texas we called it Bois D'arc (Bodark, Ya'll).
Also known as Horse Apple Tree's.

Very tough oily wood, snaps like crazy when burned and will Dull a saw in seconds.


----------



## crabapple

karlsgunbunker said:


> http://www.softgardening.com/post/61484889339/building-a-living-fence
> 
> I like this design done with Orange Osage.
> Back home in Texas we called it Bois D'arc (Bodark, Ya'll).
> Also known as Horse Apple Tree's.
> 
> Very tough oily wood, snaps like crazy when burned and will Dull a saw in seconds.


I looked into the is plant & it will take your garden over with spouts & seedlings.
I only went by what I found on the net, never seen or used this plant.
But I was scared away from using it, by what I read.


----------



## goshengirl

karlsgunbunker said:


> will Dull a saw in seconds.


Oh, no doubt. And the more dead they are, the more the sparks fly. It's like a pyrotechnic display...


----------

