# Is there a thread for "how to make a safe box"?



## faithmarie (Oct 18, 2008)

I was wondering if there is a thread for making a safe box. I saw it mentioned on the book review of "one second after"?


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## allen_idaho (Oct 21, 2009)

The "Safe Box" in question would actually be a faraday cage. It is just something built to keep small electronics safe from an EMP blast. 

There are a few different ways of making them to suit your needs. It all depends on how big you need go to.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

Would a steel gun safe function as a faraday cage?


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## sailaway (Mar 12, 2009)

mosquitomountainman said:


> Would a steel gun safe function as a faraday cage?


Good question, I was wondering the same thing.


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## faithmarie (Oct 18, 2008)

Okay I have to figure out what a faraday cage is now.


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## Tex (Oct 31, 2008)

faithmarie said:


> Okay I have to figure out what a faraday cage is now.


It's a shielded container to protect the contents from an EMP attack. (Electro Magnetic Pulse)


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## bunkerbob (Sep 29, 2009)

mosquitomountainman said:


> Would a steel gun safe function as a faraday cage?


Yes it would if the safe is grounded, and the electronic gear inside is in another metal box insulated from the outer safe. Thus a farady cage. Actually that is where I keep my handheld Ham radios.


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## faithmarie (Oct 18, 2008)

what would be the best thing to keep in the FC? Like best batteries to keep. Would you have to put hand crank radios in there or would they work without protection?


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## bunkerbob (Sep 29, 2009)

faithmarie said:


> what would be the best thing to keep in the FC? Like best batteries to keep. Would you have to put hand crank radios in there or would they work without protection?


 Most electronics, batteries would not be affected, small transistor circuits are most vulnerable, even crank radios.


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## faithmarie (Oct 18, 2008)

so really you have to keep crank radios in there just in case .... 
Can you line a closet and make a small room into a walk in FC room.
Like they used to do in the Adirondack camps... a tin lined room to keep rodents and bugs out for the winter.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

The absolute simplest faraday cage is an old microwave that you don't use anymore. It is radiation-sealed already and has a large enough "cooking area" that you can put small electronics into.

You can turn a tin-shed into a faraday cage by filling it with a few filing cabinets seperated from the walls with insulation (a couple inches would be enough). In each drawer of the filing cabinets, you can place all kinds of small electronics (auto-computers, alternators, ignition-systems) that would be protected from an EMP-blast.

You can build another faraday cage inside your house by making sure that there are no power-lines in the walls near the special room. Line the outside of the room with thin-guage aluminum (20 guage would be good), cover with drywall and then line the inside with another layer of thin-guage aluminum. Inside the room have it lit with battery-operated lights - just replace the batteries regularly or you could use a couple of spiral-core gel-cell batteries and swap them out with each other and use a solar-panel to keep them topped up when outside of the faraday room.

There is lots of information on the 'net about a faraday cage, but, to get you started: Faraday cage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

:google:


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## bunkerbob (Sep 29, 2009)

faithmarie said:


> so really you have to keep crank radios in there just in case ....
> Can you line a closet and make a small room into a walk in FC room.
> Like they used to do in the Adirondack camps... a tin lined room to keep rodents and bugs out for the winter.


Sure you can build a Faraday cage just about anywhere and out of just about any metal, metal screening, hardware cloth, even small chicken wire, as long as you follow the guidelines, encased( top,bottom,& sides) outer cage grounded with the shortest ground wire(path of least resistance) and a inner core insulated from the outer grounded one. You do not want to create a electrical path between the two, the two being in close proximity may even create a path, thus the insulation. Putting a radio in a large ammo can that has been lined with foam and the radio wrapped in alternating layers of thinner foam and aluminum foil can resist EMP. AS long as the metal does not touch metal.
Here's a bunch of photos... http://images.google.com/images?q=f...esult_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CC8QsAQwAw


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## faithmarie (Oct 18, 2008)

That sounds easy enough.... not like I read on wickapidia.


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## bunkerbob (Sep 29, 2009)

faithmarie said:


> That sounds easy enough.... not like I read on wickapidia.


 I added a link with a bunch of photos. faraday cage - Google Search


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

Good tip on the microwave. I didn't know that.

Regarding radios, tv's, etc. If they have an external antenna the farady cage won't help because the EMP will use the antenna as a route to the radio/tv. If you want to use something with an antenna the best thing is to disconnect and ground the antenna any time you aren't using it. We do this with our CB and Ham radios when lightning storms move in or when we will be gone a few days.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

I found this on another site



UnitedStatesAction.com said:


> The reality of protecting all electronic equipment against EMP from a nuclear explosion over our shores is becoming imminent. We now live in perilous times.
> 
> The information to follow on building "Faraday cages" is timely indeed. A single atmospheric nuclear detonation releases enough electromagnetic pulse (EMP) to equal 100,000 volts per square centimeter on the ground. A single detonation 200 to 400 miles over the center of the continental United States would fry every unprotected computer chip from coast to coast, and from the middle of Canada to the middle of Mexico. And we are now into Solar Cycle 23, with solar flares common and expected to continue until the first of next year. CME's are capable of extreme damage to modern computerized equipment! Sure, we have our windup BayGen radio's and spare lap top computers, but unless electronic equipment is protected from an electromagnetic pulse, they will be fried!
> 
> ...


You don't need anything really fancy for a faraday cage - even a couple of nested cardboard boxes will do the trick ..


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## faithmarie (Oct 18, 2008)

I thought you would have to keep everything in there all the time unless in use. You don't really know when an EMP hits until it has hit.... right?? How long would you have to put stuff in? You might even want to have more than one of what ever you want. And if there is a EMP computers wouldn't work anyway. The satellites would be knocked out also right? We could keep a cage around our generator too. It is portable. But it is loud when on and people would hear it. We have 10 acres and when we had the storm this winter everything was so quiet you could hear the gen real well.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

There isn't anything in a generator to worry about for EMP - everything in them should be fine. You can run your genny-for-stealth (see our electrical section for a thread with that title).

Do not expect to be able to save everything from an EMP-burst, but, you can try to minimize your losses. When you are finished using your laptop, put it into its case, put the case into a filing cabinet and make sure that it is always closed. Have a portable DVD-player in a case and put it into another drawer in the filing cabinet.

Setup an RV-based solar system with small portable inverters (under 1000 watt) and keep the inverters in another faraday cage. When you need them, plug into the battery system (EMP will not harm solar charging systems unless they are grid-tied) and run 110volt.

The fact that you are on 10 acres tells me that you would be better off than 90% of the city dwellers - EMP would be less likely to harm you unless you have a major power transmission line running near your yard.


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## faithmarie (Oct 18, 2008)

A portable dvd player !!!! Thats a great idea! When the power was out our gen was hooked up to certain outlets and the tv was one of them. Believe it or not it was very comforting ..... as long as we didn't put on a disaster movie. 
I will definitely look into genny-for-stealth... thank you. 
How far away is far enough for major power transmission lines? I don't think we are too near but I'll ask my Hubby.
About 15 years ago they wanted to put a cell phone tower on out property and I said no but they offered to give us free cell phones and I said no nothing is for free. I was not going against my Husband either at the time he thought computers and cell phones were the devil....
My Husband has an inverter in his truck .... is that what you are talking about?
Would EMP effect those?


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

There is alot of information about EMP and the effect it has on electronics - so much that it might be easier to send you off to the many technical based websites that have that information easily accessible if you want to understand the technical nature of EMP.

The simplified version of an EMP-burst: unless an EMP-burst is directly overhead (within visible distance to each horizon), it will not affect you without being able to travel along power lines (think of the power lines as part of an antenna that transmits radio signal into a receiver). Unless you have a pacemaker installed, the EMP-burst will not affect your physical body.

The burst will "spark" towards anything that it can from the power lines and anything within direct contact to those lines can be fried, and anything within a certain distance of those lines can be fried if they are not in a faraday cage. You house is directly tied to those lines, so, your house can help spread the EMP-burst to anything inside your house that is electronic inside (TV, VCR, DVD, Computer, Phone) but it should not harm heavy-duty items like a furnace motor unless it was running at the time of burst - then your guess would be as good as mine.

Meaning - if you have a steel-quonset on your yard and it is nothing more than a shed without power and a vehicle is inside it, the EMP-burst will "flow" down the outside of the quonset and into the ground, missing the vehicle parked inside it.

Now, if that same vehicle is parked outside within a mile of an overhead power line, the EMP-burst might take out the computer in the vehicle making it inoperable. If the vehicle is driving and an EMP-burst happens and the vehicle happens to be on a road with an overhead power line within sight, the burst could again take out the computer and make it inoperable.

The vehicle could stall and not start again.

You have seen thousands of electrical bursts in your life (think thunderstorm with lightning) and in general they don't harm much, but when they do, they do lots of damage. EMP is similar in nature, only significantly more powerful with a greater range of electrical destruction than with summer lightning storms.


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## faithmarie (Oct 18, 2008)

Okay so we have a large metal barn with a concrete floor and a medal roof. Is that good?? With 4 vehicles in it.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

Very good if you have no power lines going to the building ... if you can flip a switch to turn on a light, an EMP-burst can get "inside" the building and fry electronics.


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## allen_idaho (Oct 21, 2009)

To clarify, An electric generator WILL be affected by an EMP burst. You see, the generator generates an electromagnetic field to create electricity. And an EMP burst will create a massive electromagnetic field inside the motor. And when a motor creates more current than it can handle, it burns out. 

An EMP burst is a wave of energy. And anything that wave comes into contact with will be excited by that energy. Your proximity to power lines is irrelevant. I'm not sure where Naekid got that one from. 

Think about a massive solar flare. The sun will fire off a wave of electromagnetic energy toward Earth. That wave will blanket an area, affected everything it touches. 

A faraday cage will intercept and divert that wave of energy, not allowing it to reach the items you have protected inside.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

allen_idaho said:


> An EMP burst is a wave of energy. And anything that wave comes into contact with will be excited by that energy. Your proximity to power lines is irrelevant. I'm not sure where Naekid got that one from.


I found that information from the Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse

Under the history section, it describes how during the initial testing of nuclear devices - "_All signal lines were completely shielded, in many cases doubly shielded. In spite of this many records were lost because of spurious pickup at the time of the explosion that paralyzed the recording equipment_" With no direct contact of the EMP from the nuclear devices bursting at ground-level, the wiring (even double-shielded) carried the pulse through to devices connected to those wires.

If you continue reading the wiki to the "Starfish Prime", it describes high-altitude nuclear explosion and how it takes out the power-systems (including lights) in Hawaii.

As for electric-generators, it was of my understanding that if they were not running at the time of the pulse and not connected to anything (sitting idle in a garage, shed, etc) that the pulse would have nothing to impact. Now, I could be totally wrong on that as I haven't done my own testing with EMP and small gas (propane, diesel) generators .. I will do some more research into it if you don't beat me to it and post it here :wave:


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## faithmarie (Oct 18, 2008)

You don't really have time to unplug or disconnect anything before an EMP hits.
Right?
Because our steel barn would be great.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

You would have all the time in the world to unplug everything - after the blast hits.

Just think of it like this, you are workin' in the kitchen with the radio on low, the lights on the stove turn off at the same time that the radio goes off ... and the fridge stops humming.

"Dammit", you say, "the power went out again. Supper is going to be late if I can't get it to the BBQ w/ side-burner to keep it cooking ... "



It wouldn't be till you tried to start the truck in the yard that you realize that it was an EMP and it is now too late.


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## faithmarie (Oct 18, 2008)

And that's what I thought...... I guess we could rig something like unplugging it every time we use it. How aboot that...eh?


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

If you could keep that up and unplug from the wall after every use - but - that gets more and more tiring after a while.

Wildmist and I both have our own laptops. I will unpack my laptop, plug it in, use it, shut it off, and then repack it away when I am done. My laptop's startup / shutdown sequence is under 45 seconds including the time it takes to wirelessly reconnect to the router.

Wildmist will leave her laptop plugged in and running all week long - even when we are not home because her startup sequence is closer to a 5 minute startup - she doesn't have the patience to wait for it to startup.

Now - think of plugging in the DVD player everytime that you want to watch something and then unplugging everything after you are done and placing the player into a faraday-cage of some sort. After a while, you would really get tired of doing it - I know that I would get tired of it quickly.

If you read some of Jerry's stories that are hosted on the board, you will see that he writes about people creating "safe-rooms" that are EMP-protected. By doing a "cascade" of technology, you can move your older equipment to an EMP protected zone and use the newer technology as part of your daily entertainment - but - always knowing that you have backups available in case of some kind of disaster.

There is a sayin' that I heard when I was still knee-high to a grasshopper.

*Two is one - one is dead*

What that means is if there is no backup, there is no protection or redundancy. I was a computer technician for years and I lost track of the times that I heard "My harddrive died, I don't have a backup - can you get my pictures / music / files / data back?"

Anything that you can do to create redundancy will add just another level of protection for you and your family.

Now you might understand a person's need to have several vehicles, a BugOutLocation (BOL), a BugOutBag (BOB), several first-aid kits (in house, in vehicle, at work, in camper), several tents, campers, BBQ's, stoves, water-jugs ... each time you have doubles of something, you are creating your own backups.


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## allen_idaho (Oct 21, 2009)

being plugged in or not is irrelevant. The electromagnetic energy will still come into contact with your electronic devices. This will cause them to overcharge and potentially destroy themselves. 

Take, for instance, a computer. Let's say you have an extra one that you keep sitting next to your desk. It isn't plugged in. So it must be safe right? Wrong. It will still be hit by an EMP. The hard drive, which writes data magnetically, would be completely scrambled. So you would not be able to start the computer. The capacitors used on the motherboard would overcharge and burn out. So you would no longer be able to start the computer if the hard drive somehow miraculously survived. See what I'm getting at? 

An EMP does not affect items that are simply plugged in. It doesn't surge your power line. It hits everything in it's path. If it isn't in a faraday cage during an EMP, it's more than likely toast. On or off. Plugged in or unplugged.


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## faithmarie (Oct 18, 2008)

We pretty much have two of most things. But we don't have a FC. 
But I would love to have the steel barn a FC. The oldest vehicle we have is a 97. So we should try and figure out how to protect at least one.


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## faithmarie (Oct 18, 2008)

Ummm isn't there something the government have been putting on the road ways or under the roads or at intersections that can stop your car like EMP?


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## bunkerbob (Sep 29, 2009)

faithmarie said:


> Ummm isn't there something the government have been putting on the road ways or under the roads or at intersections that can stop your car like EMP?


This is one concept for stopping modern vehicles...





I don't think there is any concerted effort by the government to install EMP devices under the roads.


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

Just a thought, wouldn't an EMP take out the electronic gun sights used today? they are all battery powered.... be a nasty thing to be in a fire fight and depending on such a sight and poof your red dot goes away..

So as I understand it, if I have a shop building that's metal walled and it's grounded and there are no power lines to the building everything would be shielded unless it were to be touching the metal wall?

rubber tires setting on concrete or even gravel or dirt would shield the vehicle from the emp surge as long as it were not in contact with the metal... a shop building with solar panels on the roof providing some power to the building would be safe? 

It's all so hard to understand for somebody who sees the AK 47 as wondrous science ...


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

faithmarie said:


> Ummm isn't there something the government have been putting on the road ways or under the roads or at intersections that can stop your car like EMP?


I remember reading something like that years ago in Popular Science or popular Mechanincs or some publication similar to those in which they tested a small remote control vehicle that could go under a vehicle and kill the electronics. I don't know what happened to it. The biggest problem would be containing the EMP area so that it didn't kill every other vehicle or computer, etc. in the areas around it. It would be very easy for vehicle manufacterers to put something in the on-board-computer that could be activated remotely to kill the engine. Again, the problem would be how to do it without affecting every other vehicle on the road. (Or having the technology used by criminals.)

There are a lot of reasons to have an older carburated/point ignition or non-electronic diesel vehicle that isn't susceptable to such devices.


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## faithmarie (Oct 18, 2008)

Hey if you have on star in your car they can stop it like that... right.
And how come cars aren't safe if they are all medal? Is it because of the windows? Isn't the engine enclosed enough?


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

faithmarie said:


> Hey if you have on star in your car they can stop it like that... right.
> And how come cars aren't safe if they are all medal? Is it because of the windows? Isn't the engine enclosed enough?


Don't know anything about the "star."

The bodies are metal (well, most of them are) but they aren't grounded. The metal protects somewhat but can't stop a major infusion of EMP, lightning strike, etc. The radio is always toast because the external antenna channels the outside EMP/Lightning strike directly into it. The vehicle's on-board computer is extremely sensitive to even slight voltage spikes and therefore extremely vulnerable.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

mosquitomountainman said:


> Don't know anything about the "star."
> 
> The bodies are metal (well, most of them are) but they aren't grounded. The metal protects somewhat but can't stop a major infusion of EMP, lightning strike, etc. The radio is always toast because the external antenna channels the outside EMP/Lightning strike directly into it. The vehicle's on-board computer is extremely sensitive to even slight voltage spikes and therefore extremely vulnerable.


MtnMan - She is talking about *On Star* the system implemented in many of GM's products that satellite links each vehicle to a main data-center that allows them to unlock your doors, shut-down the vehicle if it was stolen, track the vehicle, etc.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

Duh!!!!  I think I've heard of that!


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## Grizz (Jan 24, 2010)

*Grounding your vehicle*

Just a simple question. Would grounding your vehicle help any?


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## HarleyRider (Mar 1, 2010)

No. Grounding your vehicle would not help.


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## faithmarie (Oct 18, 2008)

Would a 1978 cessna 172 start if you can start it by turning the prop. So it will start , right, if there is any kind of EMP?


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

faithmarie said:


> Would a 1978 cessna 172 start if you can start it by turning the prop. So it will start , right, if there is any kind of EMP?


I would not be able to answer that question 100% positive, but, if the airplane is stored inside a steel hanger, I would imagine that it would start. If the plane is in the air within range of the EMP pulse, I would hope that the pilot could glide the plane to the ground without any collateral damage.

The thing is - the engine might not need a starter to get going (like a standard vehicle can be bump-started), but, the charging system might take a hit and shutdown. If there is no charging system, the engine will continue to run on battery power for a short amount of time (to fire the cylinders), but, once that battery is discharged, the motor will die off as well.

I might just have to ask my buddy who builds custom airplanes to find out more about the airplanes that he builds and if they would be considered EMP-proof (in the air and on the ground).


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