# Military Goes with Sig p320!



## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

No word yet on the caliber they are going with. News reported they submitted 9 mill and .40 cal but the p320 can adapt to several calibers including .357. Interesting development. I prefer glock for my own personal needs but sig makes a damn fine firearm.

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/01/19/army-picks-sig-sauer-replace-m9-service-pistol.html


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## phideaux (Nov 7, 2015)

I own a Beretta M9, and it is a great platform , awesome handgun.

I also own (carry daily) a Sig Sauer handgun.
second to none.

Our troops deserve the best.

I sure will be watching to see what caliber they end up with.




Jim


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## cqp33 (Apr 2, 2012)

They will end up 9MM, its a NATO standard round. Thats my prediction anyways.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

I actually hope the .40 S&W will be the chosen round, though I was "wishing" .357 Sig would've won (as it would then make all .357 Sig ammo cheaper eventually).. but that won't happen except for special forces folks.

Most likely 9mm will be chosen


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

I, of course, pioneered the P320 movement with my personal endorsement back in 2016. 

After I picked up mine (I now have 3 of them) a couple of large LE agencies adopted them, then Army trials selected the P320 in XM17-guise, then ICE adopted it, then the other military branches followed suit. FN fought the selection but lost, Glock is still fighting against the selection. Now Steyr has sued Sig for patent infringement on the chassis system (even though there are several guns on the market that use the same type of system). Meanwhile the Army has announced the the tip of the spear 101st Airborne will be the first to get the XM17. 

I took me several months but I got the P320 approved for admin use at my department and then adopted agency wide. Although it could be a few years before we actually make the switch. SIg advised me they are currently running a 6-9 month backlog, which is only going to get worse. My P320 is now over 5,000 rounds and still running strong. I did however put in an Apex flat trigger as the old style trigger (which has been changed) would bite me.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

LincTex said:


> Most likely 9mm will be chosen


Looks like it.....
https://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2017/01/22/armys-new-580-million-handgun-sig-sauer-m17/
The 320 MHS will enter service as the M17, and while the caliber has not officially been named, it is thought that the Army with remain with 9mm NATO caliber, but with enhanced ammunition.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Pessimistic2 said:


> Looks like it.....
> https://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2017/01/22/armys-new-580-million-handgun-sig-sauer-m17/
> The 320 MHS will enter service as the M17, and while the caliber has not officially been named, it is thought that the Army with remain with 9mm NATO caliber, but with enhanced ammunition.


IIRC Sig demonstrated how a 147 grain 9mm in standard or +P pressures could easily equal the potency of the .40 with less wear and tear on the gun and without leaving NATO specs. The same reason why PD's all over the country are dropping the .40 and returning to 9mm. Before that the military kept testing 115 grain ball ammo and not being impressed (shocking).


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Sentry18 said:


> IIRC Sig demonstrated how a 147 grain 9mm in standard or +P pressures could easily equal the potency of the .40 with less wear and tear on the gun and without leaving NATO specs. The same reason why PD's all over the country are dropping the .40 and returning to 9mm. Before that the military kept testing 115 grain ball ammo and not being impressed (shocking).


Assuming the same muzzle velocity, for kinetic energy that 147gr has it all over the 115gr!! Jesus!


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Pessimistic2 said:


> Assuming the same muzzle velocity, for kinetic energy that 147gr has it all over the 115gr!! Jesus!


My department issue ammo is P9HST4 147 grain HST +P. It has served us very well since we left .40S&W behind. 14.5" of penetration at just under 1,000 FPS producing .608 wide projectiles post impact.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

Ive been considering getting the lone wolf drop in 9mm barrels for my g23 and 24 and getting out of .40. I just am having trouble finding a the barrel for the 24 as they dont make it anymore (as far as I can tell) and dont want to buy a used one. The 24 is my favorite pistol and dont want to give it up just for a caliber change.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

CrackbottomLouis said:


> Ive been considering getting the lone wolf drop in 9mm barrels for my g23 and 24 and getting out of .40. I just am having trouble finding a the barrel for the 24 as they dont make it anymore (as far as I can tell) and dont want to buy a used one. The 24 is my favorite pistol and dont want to give it up just for a caliber change.


I sold off all of my .40 Glocks except my G22C and G23C, which now both feature non-compensated stainless 40-9 Lonewolf barrels and Magpul GL9 magazines. Have not had a single problem with either of them shooting 9mm reliably. The G24 on the other hand would indeed be hard to buy a conversion barrel for. Maybe you should start hunting for a Glock 17L.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)




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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Sentry18......just out of curiosity, what do you think of the Browning .380?? This has been my preferred handgun for many a year, but for some reason most people don't seem to think it is enough "firepower."


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Pessimistic2 said:


> Sentry18......just out of curiosity, what do you think of the Browning .380?? This has been my preferred handgun for many a year, but for some reason most people don't seem to think it is enough "firepower."


The Browning BDA-380 was FN's answer to the Beretta 84/85, which it is a fairly close copy (with a slide mounted safety). Ironically enough FN had it made in Italy instead of Belgium. It was a very well made higher capacity .380 acp that was (and is) very accurate and soft shooting. The rub is that it is as big as many 9mm's that have almost the same capacity. But that is all about opinion and preference and nothing more. Using modern loads I would not feel under-gunned with 12/13 rounds of .380 acp in a gun that is capable of putting a lot of rounds in a bad guy quickly. I have a Beretta 84 that I really like and enjoy shooting, so I can see why the BDA is your preferred handgun.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Sentry18 said:


> I have a Beretta 84 that I really like and enjoy shooting, so I can see why the BDA is your preferred handgun.


The FiringLine people sure like the Beretta 84....looks to me like either would be a great choice......I'm just a die-hard Browning fan!


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Pessimistic2 said:


> The FiringLine people sure like the Beretta 84....looks to me like either would be a great choice......I'm just a die-hard Browning fan!


I think there is so little difference between the two guns they are six of one and a half dozen of the other. If I would have found a used Browning first then I would have that instead of the Beretta. FN (Browning) has been making guns a long long time, and they got it right way more often than they ever got it wrong.

Here's a Browning BDA with Beretta grips to show you how closely related they are too each other.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

gbfhjdks675849032


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Caribou said:


> My objection to a .380 is the power factor. I shoot a 9MM and the .45 guys say the same thing to me. You may require one more shot with the lighter round but with a lighter recoil you should be able to get that shot off quicker. Ultimately, shot placement is the key. Nice looking gun.


If a full clip + 1 won't do the trick, I need to be SOMEWHERE ELSE in a *hurry,* 'cause ain't *nothin'* gonna take that sucker down!!


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

gtfghdjskqwoeiuryt5678p-


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

While .380 does not have the ballistics of 9mm, you can buy much better and hotter .380 ammo for a handgun like the BDA than you can for the micro guns like the Ruger LCP or S&W Bodyguard. Which is what most 380 "defensive ammo" is designed for. Stuff that would crack the slide of an LCP will shoot just fine in the BDA, including +P ammo, which closes the gap between 9x17mm and 9x19mm.

In the end all handgun ammo is really inferior to centerfire rifle ammo. So whatever handgun one chooses should really be just a means to fight your way to your rifle. Or a sudden _I have to shoot this guy_ means of defense. I would take a 13 round .380 over a 6-7 round 9mm if I was in a shootout with multiple attackers.


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Caribou said:


> My objection to a .380 is the power factor. I shoot a 9MM and the .45 guys say the same thing to me. You may require one more shot with the lighter round but with a lighter recoil you should be able to get that shot off quicker. Ultimately, shot placement is the key. Nice looking gun.


9 mm, HST 147 grain, will stop what ever it hits. Also make a very good suppressor round. Quite (not silent) and lethal. My preferred carry round. On the bad side, a bit more expensive and can be hard to find.

Tell the 45 guys, they should switch to 44 mag, more knock down.  OR, can't knock down what you don't hit! :rofl:


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Caribou...."If you have to fire even one round, you need to be somewhere else."

In general, I would have to agree with you on this. Don't really want to have to get into an OK Corral blowout with the .380!! Would much rather have the S & W M/P II for THAT!!


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

ikri8uypo3ngiub4nvo[i62t4


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Caribou said:


> We had a .380 blow up with some Buffalo Bore at the range. Really glad your gun is stronger.


What gun was it? I love my LCP and LCP Custom, but the only ammo I use in them is plain old standard pressure FMJ. Plus neither of them are my primary so if I get to the point that I pull one I have probably been shot already or have run out of ammo in my primary carry gun.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

5ibj982ffkjnvdm3g5urvnqwnui65ri


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Caribou said:


> I don't remember the gun only that it was .380. Buffalo Bore did a serious number on a Keltec S2K also. I have an S2K so I remember that one.


Often times tiny pocket guns and "low budget" guns use the lowest (and thus least expensive) grade steel, alloys, and polymers in their construction. Keeps manufacturing costs down which keeps the guns cost down. But it also means they were designed to shoot and tested with only minimum spec ammo, like basic standard pressure FMJ's and nothing more. Buffalo Bore makes a variety of different ammo, but some of their hardcast +P stuff is crazy. I shot two rounds out of my Beretta 84 into gel and got something like 18-19" of penetration and it felt like I was shooting a .40S&W. Decided to pass on it.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

jbuy53orijistbjyvejhgafmljkrct


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Caribou said:


> If we opened a keg, sat down and discussed the benefits of our different choices we would run out of beer before we ran out of discussion. I was really pleased when Sentry mentioned that your gun will handle the +P. We had a .380 blow up with some Buffalo Bore at the range. Really glad your gun is stronger.


Better get two kegs!! 

I haven't tried the +P....I'm a little leery of it, and it is an old pistol. Been using the Tula FMJ's, though they are mostly "range/training rounds."

http://www.luckygunner.com/handgun/380-auto-ammo
380 Auto - 91 Grain FMJ - Tula - 1000 Rounds, $215.00
Ammo Quantity - 50 rounds per box; 20 boxes per case
Ammo Manufacturer - Tula Cartridge Works
Bullets - 91 grain full metal jacket (FMJ)
Ammo Casings - Berdan primed steel case
Muzzle Velocity: 1010 fps.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Caribou.....actually, I have another Browning .380 as well, but it's never been out of the box. Model 1911-380, 8 round clip, and I believe it would use the +P ammo. I don't really like the 1911, and it was kind of a knee-jerk purchase. I'll probably keep it as a spare, though.
http://www.browning.com/products/firearms/pistols/1911-380.html


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

[ujfirk9u4gtrjibnyut4hwngrm


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Caribou said:


> .
> 
> I want an expanding bullet in my carry ammo.


Luckygunner has Federal 99gr hollow points, but they don't mention Browning in their usage listing (SIG P238, Glock 42, and Ruger LCP), so I'm not sure about these. I want to get a few cases to take to the BOL next Spring/early Summer when I make the move out there "permanently," but I'm not really that sure WHAT to get.

380 Auto - 99 Grain HST JHP - *Federal Tactical* - 1000 Rounds ($750). "This .380 ACP ammunition from Federal is ideally suited for self-defense purposes. The HST bullet used in these rounds is a hollow point design cut (or "skived") in a way that produces expansion into a six-petaled shape upon contact with the target. The expanded projectile delivers excellent penetration while inflicting massive damage to an assailant for quick incapacitation. An excellent carry load for .380 Auto pistols like the *SIG P238, Glock 42, and Ruger LCP.*"

They also have the *Remington Golden Saber* 102gr...(500 rounds..$245), but again no mention of the old Brownings. "Remington's Golden Saber jacketed hollow points provide premium self-defense performance for when you need it most. Golden Saber rounds have match-grade accuracy and close to 100% weight retention. Their hollow points have deep penetration and offer knock down power through their rapid expansion. The powder used is designed for minimal muzzle flash and the primers are triple-inspected during the manufacturing process to ensure reliability."

I do want something better than the "range ammo," but I also don't want the damn thing blowing up in my hand!! The "in-the-box" 1911-380 would probably handle any of the ammo, but I'm kinda partial to the old one!! Got any recommendations?


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Just FYI, Lucky Gunner is not a bad place to buy ammo from but they usually aren't the cheapest either. I have been buying a lot of ammunition lately from SG Ammo and Bulk Ammo.

Federal Tactical HST / JHP is always my go to ammo. I have seen less than stellar performance from Golden Saber so I avoid it.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Sentry18 said:


> Just FYI, Lucky Gunner is not a bad place to buy ammo from but they usually aren't the cheapest either. I have been buying a lot of ammunition lately from SG Ammo and Bulk Ammo.
> 
> Federal Tactical HST / JHP is always my go to ammo. I have seen less than stellar performance from Golden Saber so I avoid it.


I see 1,000 rounds of Gold Dot HP's 99gr) for $449 on sgammo...and 95gr JHP (500 rounds) Winchester for $249 on bulkammo (same as the luckygunner Golden Saber). Not bad, but will the OLD Browning handle them, or am I gonna have to take the new one outta the box?


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Pessimistic2 said:


> I see 1,000 rounds of Gold Dot HP's 99gr) for $449 on sgammo...and 95gr JHP (500 rounds) Winchester for $249 on bulkammo (same as the luckygunner Golden Saber). Not bad, but will the OLD Browning handle them, or am I gonna have to take the new one outta the box?


Pess, Check *AMMOSEEK
*

They list just about every caliber with multiple prices, multiple suppliers. It is very easy to navigate and shows prices broken down by round cost, plus total cost and even makes note of the shipping fee ratings.

It is my go to for finding ammo at the best price. (no click here -- just click on site name --- nanner - nanner) 

I would also check out the AMMOQUEST YouTube channel, He does comprehensive ballistic testing on ammo and has a number of videos on 380 ammo. JFYI.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Tmttactical..."Pess, Check AMMOSEEK."

Looks like they have the HP's & JHP's, prices are about the same as luckygunner.
I want to go with HP's/JHP's, just a question of will the *newer* ammo be too much for the *old* Browning? :scratch


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Push come to shove, I can take the new one out of the box, but it has a completely different "feel" to it, and I'd need to put in some extensive range time just to get comfortable with it, never mind actually *hitting* anything! The old one? Point and pull, and I can do a 6-7" group at 15 yds, about a 10-12" group at 20. Maybe not the greatest in the world, but most people's chests are MUCH bigger than that, and "center mass" would be my first target.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Ammoseek, ammoengine, and slickgundeals all help you find the lowest prices, but they also sometimes direct people to crappy businesses or places that add insane shipping and other fees. I am okay with not getting the cheapest price as long as it is a reputable business that I know to be reliable. 

Any good American made JHP is going to run just find in your Browning BDA as long as your feed ramp is in good condition. I would avoid +P or +P+ ammo to avoid accelerated wear and tear on your frame and slide.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Sentry18...."Any good American made JHP is going to run just find in your Browning BDA as long as your feed ramp is in good condition."

Thanks! That's a relief. I don't plan on using any of the +P, but it's nice to know the newer HP/JHP's won't blow up in my hand. Some of the newer ammo is a lot more potent than the old stuff! Have also read on some of the forums that you should ONLY shoot FMJ's, or EFMJ's, because HP's will gouge the ramp...what about that?

Excerpt from one of the forums: "Great Browning BDA. Have one myself and love it. These are redesigned Beretta 84, it uses a standard slide instead of the open style of the Berettas. Only thing is you can only use FMJs in it. No hollow points as they may gouge the feed ramp since the lower is made of aluminum."


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Caribou...."Is your feed ramp really aluminum?"

Darn sure doesn't look like aluminum to me! I'm gonna take it to the local gun shop tomorrow and find out what is what...I've polished the ramp several times...it ain't "bright and shiny," and I don't THINK it's aluminum, but I suppose I could be wrong. :scratch


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

rhgtyfuidso4536728910-


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Caribou said:


> If your feed ramp is part of the barrel it is not aluminum. While you're at the gun store pick up a couple boxes of ammo to try in your gun. Some guns just don't like certain ammo and it would be good to know before you dump a grand on ammo whether it works for you.


This help?


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

tyuioe4r56cvbhjaOLKJHGF


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Pessimistic2 said:


> Caribou...."Is your feed ramp really aluminum?"
> 
> Darn sure doesn't look like aluminum to me! I'm gonna take it to the local gun shop tomorrow and find out what is what...I've polished the ramp several times...it ain't "bright and shiny," and I don't THINK it's aluminum, but I suppose I could be wrong. :scratch


If a magnet sticks to the slide, not aluminium. If it does not stick, could be polymer or aluminium.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

I highly doubt the feed ramp is aluminum. They may be confusing the BDA with the Beretta 84 which uses more of a locking block system that doubles as a feed ramp (see pic below). The 84F barrel and your barrel are definitely different. The change allowed the BDA to have a closed slide versus the open slide of the Beretta. But even steel feed ramps can get gouged, it's just unlikely that a standard JHP will do so. You would need some kind of coated steel bullet to make that happen.










Also remember not all JHP's are the same size and shape. Some are very rounded, some are cone shaped, some are just weird. And not all defensive rounds are JHP's. I would start with cheap and available 380 JHP, but as you can see if you have the time and the money you can eventually find the right reliable defensive load for any gun.

Hornady Critical Defense










Lehigh Penetrators










OATH Operators










Liberty Ammo Civil Defense










Remington Ultra Defense










Ruger ARX


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## phideaux (Nov 7, 2015)

On some pistols , the* angle of the feed ramp,* and the angle of the magazine lips, can be a problem for some bullets, not feeding smoothly.

Jim


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Caribou...."That is what I thought. Your feed ramp is part of the barrel and is steel."

Well, that's what I thought, too....didn't LOOK like a separate piece, which it would have to be to be aluminum. Hell, I don't think I've ever seen or heard of an aluminum feed ramp in ANY semi-auto pistol....until I saw that post in another Forum, it never crossed my mind. Still gonna go see Mike, though, and I'll pick up a couple boxes each of HP's & JHP's, and ask him about using +P in this thing. I have my doubts, though, it's going on 24 years old. BTW...The .380 I posted the pic of is NOT "mine," (I wish it were!!!), that's a "Presentation Issue," and likely cost about 10 times what I paid for mine!!! Mine doesn't look ANYWHERE NEAR that pristine, but I don't post pics of anything except the dogs, and that stupid "pool" my cousin erected in my front yard! I just got a thing against posting pics of personal stuff, don't matter what it is.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

lshjr85kyiefgnvm,b9eg


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Caribou said:


> I carry +P but I feed my handguns regular range ammo most of the time. The +P has higher chamber pressures and while I think my guns will handle it I don't care to subject them to the extra wear and tear just for practice. I put enough of any carry ammo through my firearm that I feel comfortable that it will function reliably.


I gotta get off this d52n machine, or I'll never get to the shop!!! It's frickin' 11:18 already!!


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Boy do I need some range time.......14" groups at 15 yds.....crap. Never mind 25! I don't even wanna talk about it! But the old pistola handles the HP & JHP just fine. Mike says *do not* try +P or +P+....the pistol wasn't made with that kind of pressure in mind. Got a box of MagTech 95gr JHP's and a couple boxes of SinterFire 75gr frangible HP's. But I sure do need to put in some range time...sheeesh!!


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Pessimistic2 said:


> Boy do I need some range time.......14" groups at 15 yds.....crap. Never mind 25! I don't even wanna talk about it! But the old pistola handles the HP & JHP just fine. Mike says *do not* try +P or +P+....the pistol wasn't made with that kind of pressure in mind. Got a box of MagTech 95gr JHP's and a couple boxes of SinterFire 75gr frangible HP's. But I sure do need to put in some range time...sheeesh!!


Like most things, shooting is a perishable skill. The good news is it comes back quickly with range time. And besides, 14" is still "minute of bad guy".


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Sentry18 said:


> Like most things, shooting is a perishable skill. The good news is it comes back quickly with range time. And besides, 14" is still "minute of bad guy".


Not much of a minute!! Either I need new glasses or I'm getting shakier than I thought! Might hit a bull elk if he was standing right next to me! Maybe..:facepalm::eyebulge:


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## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

I bought a Sig P320 last year on Sentry's suggestion and could not find magazines, nor holsters for it at Cabela's. An online search finally found a Serpa type holster arriving just in time for my concealed class. 

I fired 50 rounds and only had 17 holes, 250 points out of a possible 250 points. Pretty poor shooting for me. Should have been 5 holes. 

Now I am going online to get some magazines.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Pessimistic2 said:


> Not much of a minute!! Either I need new glasses or I'm getting shakier than I thought! Might hit a bull elk if he was standing right next to me! Maybe..:facepalm::eyebulge:


My Dad is a very skilled shooter who taught firearms for the FBI in the 1970's, spent 30 years in law enforcement and 10 years in corporate security. When he reached his mid-60's he complained that his accuracy just wasn't there anymore and he started practicing more. By his 70's he was having troubles again. One day he borrowed one of my handguns with fiber optic front and plain black rear sights and his shooting immediately improved. Now his S&W Shield has Warren Tactical plain rears and an Ameriglo ProGlo front (think Trijicon HD for 60% the price). He qualified last spring with a 88%. Not bad for a 73 year old guy who is as fast on the draw as he was 30 years ago. If my shooting every starts to decline the first thing I am going to do is reconsider what sights I am using, the second thing I am going to do is head in for an eye exam.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Sentry18 said:


> If my shooting every starts to decline the first thing I am going to do is reconsider what sights I am using, the second thing I am going to do is head in for an eye exam.


Well, first the new glasses....these are nearly two years old. Then maybe the sights. If that don't help, then comes the 12 ga, w/slugs and OO!! :gaah:


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Some possibilities...........not exactly sure they'd be *legal*, but if SHTF nobody is gonna worry about that little detail....


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Pessimistic2 said:


> Boy do I need some range time.......14" groups at 15 yds.....crap. Never mind 25! I don't even wanna talk about it! But the old pistola handles the HP & JHP just fine. Mike says *do not* try +P or +P+....the pistol wasn't made with that kind of pressure in mind. Got a box of MagTech 95gr JHP's and a couple boxes of SinterFire 75gr frangible HP's. But I sure do need to put in some range time...sheeesh!!


Here is a short video regarding defense ammo for the 380 caliber.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Tmttactical......Good video! At $139.99 for 250 rds, that's $559.96, shipping $22.69, total $582.65 direct from Precision One. Luckygunner doesn't carry Precision One, but the price is very close to the Gold Dot JHP ($625 if I remember correctly). So that ain't bad....I'll get Mike (Gun Shop guy) to order a 4-pack for me. 

Precision One; 380 ACP 90gr HP/XTP *NEW* Mega Pack 250rds: $139.99
HOME PROTECTION-PERSONAL DEFENSE. These rounds are made specifically for maximum power and effectiveness. All new components featuring the Hornady XTP Personal Protection round. An economical value pack with an excellent quality product. The rounds come bulk packaged and loose in one 250rd mega pak


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Pessimistic2 said:


> Some possibilities...........not exactly sure they'd be *legal*, but if SHTF nobody is gonna worry about that little detail....


Just for the record:

Kel-Tec KSG = Junk

Olympic Arms AR-15 pistol = Junk (and they just went out of business)

Bersa 9mm compact = Okay budget gun with very expensive mags

SERBU shotgun = Good for CQB but harsh recoil, 2+1 round capacity.

If you want a good point and shoot option, both mossberg and Remington now make a non-NFA 14" pistol gripped shotgun. I have one and while the recoil is not light, it is not unmanageable either.


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## phideaux (Nov 7, 2015)

OR...

If you can't operate a pump action, (like me), there is this one that sits by my bed .

Can run up to 25 rounds , mine is only 10 rounds , due to the excess weight.

















It actually is my wife's.

Jim


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

phideaux said:


> OR...
> 
> If you can't operate a pump action, (like me), there is this one that sits by my bed .
> 
> ...


I have wanted one for a while, but when I do get one I might swing for a Kushnapup conversion stock. All the goodness in a "shorter" package.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Sentry18 said:


> I have wanted one for a while, but when I do get one I might swing for a Kushnapup conversion stock. All the goodness in a "shorter" package.


That is one sweet looking package! :melikey:

1. What does that thing cost?
2. Where do ya get one?
3. 12 ga only, or can you get it in 16 ga?
4. What sight/scope is that?


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Pessimistic2 said:


> That is one sweet looking package! :melikey:
> 
> 1. What does that thing cost?
> 2. Where do ya get one?
> ...


$275 if you already own the gun.

http://www.kushnapup.com/order

I am betting 12ga only because the VEPR style AK shotties only come in 12 / 410.

Looks like a Vortex Red dot with a 3x screw in magnifier.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Sentry18 said:


> $275 if you already own the gun.
> http://www.kushnapup.com/order
> I am betting 12ga only because the VEPR style AK shotties only come in 12 / 410. Looks like a Vortex Red dot with a 3x screw in magnifier.


Have saved the url for future reference/use. I do not have a shotgun at present. Been thinking about the Remington Model 870, gonna have to have one for the BOL anyway. https://www.remington.com/shotguns/pump-action/model-870/model-870-wingmaster. Considering the Kushnapup conversion, though, what would you recommend? Currently I have only the two .380s (the BDA I carry and the 380-1911 still in the box), and the S & W MP-15 Sport II (.223). https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/mp-15-sport-ii (And I don't have a scope for it yet...thinking about the Nikon P-223 3-9x40...know anything about it?)

Oh, yeah, I also have a couple non-lethal plinkers...a Crosman Vigilante .177 CO2 pistol (435 fps), http://www.crosman.com/vigilante-revolver, (Fun to play with, but it won't even kill a squirrel!), and a Crosman 2100 air rifle, .177 cal. (10 pumps, 750 fps, pellets or bb's) w/4x el cheapo scope. https://www.walmart.com/ip/Crosman-2100X-Classic-177-Cal-Rifle-with-Scope/45848936#about-item (It will kill a squirrel, though, and it's hell on stray cats....I think there's a zillion feral stray cats living in the woods/swamp around here!! Damn things tear open all the garbage bags if ya set 'em out the night before pickup...them and the 'possums, '*****!! )


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

kmjhyretyu67890rtyui


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Pessimistic2 said:


> Have saved the url for future reference/use. I do not have a shotgun at present. Been thinking about the Remington Model 870, gonna have to have one for the BOL anyway. https://www.remington.com/shotguns/pump-action/model-870/model-870-wingmaster. Considering the Kushnapup conversion, though, what would you recommend? Currently I have only the two .380s (the BDA I carry and the 380-1911 still in the box), and the S & W MP-15 Sport II (.223). https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/mp-15-sport-ii (And I don't have a scope for it yet...thinking about the Nikon P-223 3-9x40...know anything about it?)
> 
> Oh, yeah, I also have a couple non-lethal plinkers...a Crosman Vigilante .177 CO2 pistol (435 fps), http://www.crosman.com/vigilante-revolver, (Fun to play with, but it won't even kill a squirrel!), and a Crosman 2100 air rifle, .177 cal. (10 pumps, 750 fps, pellets or bb's) w/4x el cheapo scope. https://www.walmart.com/ip/Crosman-2100X-Classic-177-Cal-Rifle-with-Scope/45848936#about-item (It will kill a squirrel, though, and it's hell on stray cats....I think there's a zillion feral stray cats living in the woods/swamp around here!! Damn things tear open all the garbage bags if ya set 'em out the night before pickup...them and the 'possums, '*****!! )


They do make a drop-in bullpup kit for the Rem 870 too.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Sentry18 said:


> They do make a drop-in bullpup kit for the Remington 870 too.


Who makes that? Do you have a link for it? It ain't as purty as the Kushnapup, but it looks pretty functional..


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Caribou said:


> Costs more than the gun.
> 
> http://bullpupunlimited.3dcartstores.com/Remington-870-Shotgun-Conversion-Kit_p_8.html


Just for you, pess and Sentry: Remingtomn 870 conversions


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Caribou said:


> Costs more than the gun.
> http://bullpupunlimited.3dcartstores.com/Remington-870-Shotgun-Conversion-Kit_p_8.html


I was considering the 870 Wingmaster ($847), but that 870 Express don't look like a bad deal, either ($443-$601).
https://www.remington.com/search/shotguns

With the BullPup being $359, the Express total would run $802-$960, which ain't a whole lot different than the Wingmaster alone ($847). That is likely what I'll end up going with....looks like a pretty good deal. :melikey:


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

tmttactical said:


> Just for you, pess and Sentry: Remingtomn 870 conversions.


Oh Oh, boy I don't like all those "failures to eject!!!" Might have to reconsider this!!


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Caribou said:


> Costs more than the gun.
> http://bullpupunlimited.3dcartstores.com/Remington-870-Shotgun-Conversion-Kit_p_8.html


Just finished watching that video Tmttactical posted....DO NOT like all those "fail to eject" sequences!!! May have to reconsider the 870 Express/BullPup conversion....The 870 Express is fine, but that BullPup conversion may not be the way to go! Might have to find something the Kushnapup will work with. I don't need something that's gonna hang up every 4-5 rounds!!


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Caribou said:


> Here is the 500 but the 870 goes on sale too and they make bullpups for both. $275+$360=$635
> https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog...ail&utm_campaign=BGSWS051517&utm_medium=email


I don't know all that much about shotguns....how does the Mossberg compare to the Remington for reliability? :dunno:


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Caribou said:


> The Saiga 12 goes with the Kushnapup and being semi auto the stock should not affect the cycling.


$1,800 - $3,000+......ummm, yeah, well....little steep!!
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/646755262

I'm leaning toward that 870 Express, or an 870 Tactical. My brother knows a heck of a lot more about shotguns than I do, and he loves Remington, says they are the best, period, end of story. Why is there such a price difference between that Mossberg and the Remington?? :dunno: (I don't even wanna think about the Saiga...Jesus!)


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Pessimistic2 said:


> $1,800 - $3,000+......ummm, yeah, well....little steep!!
> http://www.gunbroker.com/item/646755262
> 
> I'm leaning toward that 870 Express, or an 870 Tactical. My brother knows a heck of a lot more about shotguns than I do, and he loves Remington, says they are the best, period, end of story. Why is there such a price difference between that Mossberg and the Remington?? :dunno: (I don't even wanna think about the Saiga...Jesus!)


My shotgun of choice Molot VEPR 12ga. and you can get it at classic firearms.






Link to Classic Arms: *Click Here* : Current Price $799.99


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

tmttactical said:


> My shotgun of choice Molot VEPR 12ga. and you can get it at classic firearms. Current Price $799.99


Well, that was a pretty impressive video.....nice shotgun! I'm gonna send all this stuff to my brother tomorrow, well, actually later today sometime, jeeeez, it's 3:40 AM! Anyway, I'll have him look it all over. He knows way more than I do about shotguns...he must have a dozen of 'em! (Probably all Remingtons, the way he goes on about Remington!:ghost Back to bed fer me!! The terrorists will be up bright and early, I'm sure, and cousin will probably roust me up to go get the %$#@ rototiller around 8:30 or so...place opens at 9:00...


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

While I have no personal experience with that Bullpup conversion they have been selling for years now and continue to sell. So they must be working more often than not. Plus I am not very trusting of YouTube videos, especially "Deputy Matt" who has proven to be _less than an expert_ more than once. So I would check out numerous reviews before making a decision one way or another.

All said and done I like scatter guns, but only use them for home security. Boomy the Welcomer hangs above the front door (pictured), otherwise I have 3 old well-worn Remington 870 Police (Wingmaster) Magnums around the house in Shotlocks. I think I paid $125 each at a police auction 20 years ago. Not fancy or tactical, but they are all wood and metal and they all go boom. My preferred load is reduced recoil No. 4 Buckshot with flight control wad.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Pessimistic2 said:


> I don't know all that much about shotguns....how does the Mossberg compare to the Remington for reliability? :dunno:


Mossy versus Remmy is really just a matter of preference. They are equal in almost all regards. I have both of them and neither has caused me any issues or concerns. I really like the Mossbergs ghost ring sights versus the rifle sights on my 870 Police models.


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## phideaux (Nov 7, 2015)

I can tell ya from experience , that the VEPR is a Cadillac of semi autos, and with the auto gas valve, you can load it with 2 1/2"#9 light load, bird shot, and 00 buckshot 3" heavy load , and it will cycle without a hiccup.

Try that with a Saiga, 
And I have Saiga, and like em , but they dont have the auto gas vales.

I've never had a failure , in any way with the VEPR.

And with the proper muzzle break , muzzle control, and recoil (or lack of) is unbelievable.


Jim


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Forgot to mention there is a new VEPR/SAIGA style shotgun on the market for less money, a lot less. Looks like they run about $499. I have not touched one or read a review, just passing on the info. I do like the ghost ring rear and fiber optic front sights though.










https://gun.deals/product/ddi-12ga-ak-style-semi-automatic-shotgun-threaded-barrel-59999


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Sentry18 said:


> Forgot to mention there is a new VEPR/SAIGA style shotgun on the market for less money, a lot less. Looks like they run about $499. I have not touched one or read a review, just passing on the info. I do like the ghost ring rear and fiber optic front sights though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good info. I had forgotten this model. I had passed on it, because no top rail for Red Dot and no bottom rail for flashlight, but an excellent price point value. Home defense-point an shoot- best value going.

As for the Deputy Dog video, could not resist when I saw the Lego LEO Avatar (never pass up a heehaw). Not top quality video but funny to me!


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

tmttactical said:


> As for the Deputy Dog video, could not resist when I saw the Lego LEO Avatar (never pass up a heehaw). Not top quality video but funny to me!


Maybe that's why I don't like him. SOB is trying to steal my thing.


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Sentry18 said:


> Maybe that's why I don't like him. SOB is trying to steal my thing.


Yea, bet he even has fuzzy handcuffs.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

tmttactical said:


> Yea, bet he even has fuzzy handcuffs.


He is a deputy sheriff, I don't think they use handcuffs. Don't they just drag dead deer off of county roads, wrangle up cows when fences break and serve warrants for unpaid speeding tickets?


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

Very interesting thread. I learned a lot from it.:wave:


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