# The "American Redoubt"



## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

A *redoubt* is a fort or fort system usually consisting of an enclosed defensive emplacement outside a larger fort, usually relying on earthworks, though others are constructed of stone or brick.[1] It is meant to protect soldiers outside the main defensive line and can be a permanent structure or a hastily-constructed temporary fortification. (Wikipedia)

I'm hearing more lately about the "American Redoubt" - the combined western tier of states consisting of Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, Washington specifically - as THE place to be to survive the coming social and economic calamity awaiting us. Open spaces. Lots of open spaces. Low population density, and those who are there share certain beliefs, like Christianity, prepping, independence minded, and mostly caucasian. Jim Rawles boasts about the American Redoubt over on his site, "Survival.com". When the prominent Christian paster Chuck Baldwin left his Florida church and moved his family "kit & caboodle" to Montana last year it signaled the beginning of a migration into these states from other areas by people who had been reading all that stuff about how great being there was.

I don't get it! Sure, its pretty, but the growing season is short. Frigid temps throughout the winter, some dropping to as low as -50 degrees F and snow measured in feet. Few jobs paying a livable wage for newcomers, and has anyone looked at real estate prices in any of the more desirable areas? I could sell every material possession I own and still not be able to afford a modest house on a few acres of land! Almost everything they consume must be trucked in from other parts of the country - food, fuel, clothing... So, how is it a "redoubt" if there remains such a dependance on outside supply?

I've never been there. I just know that easily found information about the area wouldn't add up to the only good place to be as some would have you believe.

So, any of you out in that area care to comment? What's the truth of the matter?


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

Well, I don't live there, but my dad just bought a house with a big chunk of land in the pan-handle of Idaho. He plans to retire out there, so the job issue doesn't really matter to him. He already stores up a lot of food, fuel, and supplies, so that isn't much of an issue to him, either. Also, he grew up on an orange orchard in Florida (on what is now a parking lot for Disney.),and he currently owns some livestock and butchers a lot of his own meat, so he knows how to survive if the supply chain shuts down. Not to mention the fact that he plans on selling about 200 of his guns before he moves, since he doesn't really want to hang on to his WWII stuff... that will leave him with about 200 modern guns... so, yeah, he's pretty well prepped.

He has been looking at moving out there for about seven years, so he isn't jumping on the bandwagon, by any means. There may be a few unprepared idealists moving out there, but I have a feeling that the majority of folks who are moving out there will be of a similar sort.


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## rhrobert (Apr 27, 2009)

I think I'll stay right here in the Ozarks, where people of like mind are flocking to as well. Mild winters, long growing season, low crime (at least in my area), plenty of space, and no zoning. 

The Pac NW has always seemed to call to the masses, and it was an area we looked at, but not for long. It just wasn't for us, we'll stay in the heartland, but wish all those well who move to the NW.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

If its everything some are crowing about, then it deserves a look. But,. its not like you can just take a truck full of preps with you and be all set. You will have to find the means for a sustainable long-term existence for when the preps run out. Growing vegetables requires some room and a growing season long enough to harvest. Growing livestock takes a LOT of room and a lot of time and knowledge. 

I'm simply curious. I currently live in an area where the crime rate is low, we have temperate seasons allowing for long growing seasons, the region is holding its own economically, and the people here help each other. Most have been here for generations. Many can trace their heritage back to Jamestown. We have beautiful mountains, forests, streams, rivers, and fertile soil. It would take a lot for me to call in the dogs, put the fire out, and head to the American Redoubt. 

Hopefully, someone out there will be willing to enlighten me (us) in the same polite way in which the question is being asked.


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## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

If it ain't for you, well it ain't for you. Sounds more like your looking for support of your belief that they are not as smart as those who live where you live. It is America we can live anywhere we [email protected] well choose to live. I think you are "Insecure" in your choice or it would not be an issue for you.

:kiss::kiss::kiss:


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## kejmack (May 17, 2011)

Texas suits me just fine. I visited the "Redoubt" area and a couple of other places before deciding on Texas. I moved here with a specific purpose in mind. There are many people on this forum who do not have the luxury of moving and they must make do where they are. There are probably just as many people who have different needs that are met elsewhere. To each his own.


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## kejmack (May 17, 2011)

Jezcruzen said:


> Jim Rawles boasts about the American Redoubt over on his site, "Survival.com".


Survival.com is owned by Ron and Karen Hood. Not someone named Rawles. Can you post the link?


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## Asatrur (Dec 17, 2008)

kejmack said:


> Survival.com is owned by Ron and Karen Hood. Not someone named Rawles. Can you post the link?


It is actually SurvivalBlog.com
I am not a fan of the redoubt, as it is seems to much like a cult to me.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

I was born-n-raised in western-Canada having similar weather patterns as what you will find through-out the PNW (Pacific NorthWest) of the USA through Idaho, Montana and the Dakotas - growing season isn't the same as way down south, but, we do get great vegitables and fruits growing here, just not the same as down in Texas or Florida or .... but, lots of cucumber, tomato, lettuce, berries, plum, cherry, apple (and so on). Our heartland of the prairies grows amazing canola, wheat, mustard and we have great beef, pork, chicken too.

Just because we are north of 49° doesn't mean that we cannot survive - Sourdough does well north of 60° ... The bonus is that it is cool enough around here that we don't have to worry about them massive snakes, croc's and 'gators and spiders of immense proportions ... :gaah:

Give me the bears and mountain-lions any day over ugly little spiders ... :club:


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

We're right here in the country you're talking about. We have 20 acres and a log cabin in NW Montana. We produce around 85% of what we eat, though gardening (potatoes, onions, carrots, peas, celery, lettuce, etc., grow well here, plus we have apple, plum, and cherry trees, and strawberries, raspberries, and blackberries), foraging (huckleberries by the gallons, wild grapes, salad greens, cooking and medicinal herbs), hunting (deer, elk, squirrel (though it would almost take 4 & 20 of them baked in a pie to make a meal), turkey, grouse, etc.), and fishing (Pike, Perch, Bass, Trout, and Salmon). I grow some of our own grains (wheat, rye, and oats) but need to plow up more land to grow enough. We have chickens for eggs and barter food with a neighbor for milk. 

Pretty good surviving, IMO. However, there is little money here, very few jobs. Real estate is outrageous because Montana has been filling up with Californians and other out-of-staters and it's driven up the prices. People USED to be pretty much like-minded here, however now we're filled with a lot of liberals who get all frenzied and stir things up all the time. Our governor and both Senators are Democrats, and our state has passed some sickening laws such as the one in the last year to require sex ed starting in Kindergarden. 

So things are definitely going downhill as far as a great retreat type of place. Population density here and in surrounding states is much lower than most places, which I'm sure helps. But it's like a lot of places... the people are condensed in certain areas. Look at a map of Montana. The state, especially our county in the top left corner, is mostly National Forest, National Park, Wilderness areas, BLM land, State forest, etc. That means the people who are here are mostly in certain corridors. 

If our kids and grandkids weren't all within 65 miles of us I'd be looking for a place with a milder climate. The ozarks are great, although more humid than I'm used to. Southern Colorado, parts of New Mexico and Nevada. Even the area I used to live in SE Kentucky had very remote places back in those hills. The climate was great! 

Personally I don't care much for Rawles or his website, just based on what I hear living in this area. Partly it's because I just want to roll my eyes every time someone buys land around here and moves in with their Rhodesian Ridgeback guard dog (most of whom bound up to me joyfully instead of barking) and their Suburban they just bought and are going to fix up to be EMP-proof, bullet-proof, and everything else proof (and will never get around to, much less even need, most likely), and start asking around if anyone has ever made a Claymore. Give me a break. Foolish people that don't know the first thing about survival or preparedness, and they just assume that those of us who live here already will teach them, and keep them alive when the SHTF. Sigh... :gaah:


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

Gypsysue, thats the kind of information I wanted. Having never been in the region, it is easy to get misconceptions. I always wanted to get out there but life has a way of moving on and some plans and wants just don't come together. I know its beautiful! By your description it sounds like a great location.

I checked real estate in and around Klellinspell, (sp) Montana. WOW! I just couldn't afford that. Same for much of Idaho. Homer, Ak. and its surroundings was more in my price range.

Sourdough, I think your response was a bit on the rude side. I have no reason to justify my decision regarding where I live nor do I have the need to cast dispersions on anyone choosing to live some place else. I am very happy here in the Blue Ridge of Virginia. I have deep, deep roots here. My family fought for this dirt on more than one occasion in our history. That doesn't mean I'm not also interested in other locations like where Gypsysue resides. 

Gypsysue, I can see some friction developing between the natives and those rushing to re-locate into the area due to the information (good and bad) being passed around the net by the likes of people like Rawls and Baldwin.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

gypsysue:

I have no doubt that you know how to deal with those types that expect to be taken care of or want something for nothing. :club:

It sounds to me that you have an excellent way of life, and produce enough for you and yours to live fairly well no matter what befalls this Country. :2thumb:

I know it takes a heck of a lot of work to maintain a "back to basics" type of life style and at 64 yrs. old I am finding out just how much work it takes to get our retreat set up for 30 people. My old butt is dragging by the end of the day, but it is certainly worth every drop of sweat that it takes to get it done.

Good on ya. :congrat:


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## Ponce (May 3, 2009)

Cruzen? to me the only place to be at is right where I am at.....in the years 2,000 I knew for certain what the future was holding for everyone in this country and after spending three weeks in the internet looking around I decided in South West Oregon.......here the winds blow in from the ocean and in land and I whith hills and mountains all the way around me......the winds will take away any gas attack and the mountains will protect me from nukes, besides, there is nothing here that the enemy would like to nuke.

I own my home and not counting food and gasoline all that I need to live here is $4,300 a year which I can cut down to $3,600 with no problems... we have no state or local taxes and we also have the best roads in the country.

One of the main things that I like about here is that the forest is my backyard and in case of an emergency I have a BIGGGGG place to hide and from where to fight.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

Sourdough said:


> If it ain't for you, well it ain't for you. Sounds more like your looking for support of your belief that they are not as smart as those who live where you live. It is America we can live anywhere we [email protected] well choose to live. I think you are "Insecure" in your choice or it would not be an issue for you.
> 
> :kiss::kiss::kiss:


I think you hammered Jezcruzin a bit hard. I don't believe he meant any harm in his posts, I feel he just wanted some info on the area.

He might have worded it a bit differently, but I really don't believe he meant to insult anyone.

I have been stationed all over the west and north west including a 3 yr. tour in Alaska (loved it) and every area including here in Texas has it's good and bad points.

I love my state, but I darn sure don't love the high heat and humidity in the Summer.

It is all a matter of "give and take" and you just have to figure out how much you are willing to give, and if you are willing to give that much so you are able to take what you need.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

Ponce:
I was stationed at Kingsley Field in Klamath Falls, Oregon (back in the late 60's) for almost two years and loved it. You sound like you just might live close to that area. :2thumb:


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

Ponce said:


> I decided in South West Oregon.......here the winds blow in from the ocean and in land and I whith hills and mountains all the way around me......the winds will take away any gas attack and the mountains will protect me from nukes, besides, there is nothing here that the enemy would like to nuke.


Ponce, I love that area where you are! We drove down through there in the end of June, cut over to the coast south of Salem and drove down into northern California, then across east to Redding, CA.

It looks like great country there, lots of forest and there's nothing like the coastline along there. Beautiful! Lucky you!

oldvet is right, though. There's good and bad about every place. We looked at a lot of areas in the last year and a half, and although there were some we considered equally as good as where we are right now, none were better enough to convince us to move. The negative things here would include the growing season, the looooong cold winters, the real estate prices, and the large numbers of west coast transplants and wanna-be's.

If you're in a good area and you know how to survive there, then stay. If not, keep looking or learn more about being self-reliant where you are.

As for a "last stand" kind of place, that could be anywhere. It might be several folds back into the Appalachians up a tree-filled 'holler' somewhere, or in a ravine in Arizona way the heck back in there, or on a ridge of land back in a bayou, in a coulee in North Dakota, or who knows where. If people out there think of Montana and this area as some sort of hold-out survival-type place, the government probably does too. "They" might be in my backyard before they're in yours!


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

Ponce said:


> Cruzen? to me the only place to be at is right where I am at.....in the years 2,000 I knew for certain what the future was holding for everyone in this country and after spending three weeks in the internet looking around I decided in South West Oregon.......here the winds blow in from the ocean and in land and I whith hills and mountains all the way around me......the winds will take away any gas attack and the mountains will protect me from nukes, besides, there is nothing here that the enemy would like to nuke.
> 
> I own my home and not counting food and gasoline all that I need to live here is $4,300 a year which I can cut down to $3,600 with no problems... we have no state or local taxes and we also have the best roads in the country.
> 
> One of the main things that I like about here is that the forest is my backyard and in case of an emergency I have a BIGGGGG place to hide and from where to fight.


Sounds great, Ponce! My oldest spent the past 4/5 years in Westport, Wa. He was (is) a commercial crab fisherman. While I don't think I'd like all the rain, the beaches, forests, and mountains are breathtaking! I attended the National Fire Academy with a firefighter from Wa. that actually knew and had frequent contact with (damn, can't remember his name) living at Spirit Lake prior to the volcano. Its an amazing place. Wish I could visit each of you... even your butt, Sourdough, to see what its like. And, you could visit me, here near Appomattox, Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry, and others.


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## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

Jezcruzen said:


> Sounds great, Ponce! My oldest spent the past 4/5 years in Westport, Wa. He was (is) a commercial crab fisherman. While I don't think I'd like all the rain, the beaches, forests, and mountains are breathtaking! I attended the National Fire Academy with a firefighter from Wa. that actually knew and had frequent contact with (damn, can't remember his name) living at Spirit Lake prior to the volcano. Its an amazing place. Wish I could visit each of you... even your butt, Sourdough, to see what its like. And, you could visit me, here near Appomattox, Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry, and others.


Odd that you would waste even a minute of life assessing my alleged rudeness. As it turns out I happen to love Virginia, and I could even live there if the population was 20,000 for the whole state. Now, back to peeing you off. What a silly statement, "I don't think I would like the rain". It reminds me of people who say, I would need to eat healthy foods in a survival event, I would never eat sardines packed in oil, I would need packed in water, and spring water at that.

I find it silly that people will say I would like this, or I would not like that. This is Martha Stewart talk from people who have never missed a meal unless on a diet. This is NOT sunset digest magazine, this is a survival forum.


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## Jason (Jul 25, 2009)

I think Jezcruzen's point was that we have the luxury of living anywhere in this country (and probably Canada) that we want to and as such, we can basically pick what type of climate we live in. This is a survival forum, yes, but we do have the ablility, at least so far, to move around as we please. There's nothing Martha Stewart about moving across the country to find less population, more rain for a better chance at a successful garden, less cold weather, etc.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

Jason said:


> I think Jezcruzen's point was that we have the luxury of living anywhere in this country (and probably Canada) that we want to and as such, we can basically pick what type of climate we live in. This is a survival forum, yes, but we do have the ablility, at least so far, to move around as we please. There's nothing Martha Stewart about moving across the country to find less population, more rain for a better chance at a successful garden, less cold weather, etc.


:2thumb: I do believe you have ended this little disagreement. I couldn't agree more.


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## Harv2 (Jun 7, 2011)

Sourdough said:


> I find it silly that people will say I would like this, or I would not like that. This is Martha Stewart talk from people who have never missed a meal unless on a diet. This is NOT sunset digest magazine, this is a survival forum.


Well Sourdough, I'll bet even you have some "Martha Stewart" likes and dislikes....are you always this negative?...Maybe you need to straighten out your underware..folks like you generally keep me from posting on this forum!...H


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

Harv2 said:


> Well Sourdough, I'll bet even you have some "Martha Stewart" likes and dislikes....are you always this negative?...Maybe you need to straighten out your underware..folks like you generally keep me from posting on this forum!...H


Well, he _does_ have "sour" in his name... I guess there _is_ a little truth in advertising!


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## kejmack (May 17, 2011)

I had never heard of the "American Redoubt" before this post... but after reading all the cranky replies it has re-affirmed my decision to "go it alone" and not be part of any survival community. We are not even in a survival situation and people are already trading barbs. Can't imagine living with some of the people on this forum. I bet you all don't refill the icetrays and you leave the toilet seat up! LOL


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

kejmack said:


> I had never heard of the "American Redoubt" before this post... but after reading all the cranky replies it has re-affirmed my decision to "go it alone" and not be part of any survival community. We are not even in a survival situation and people are already trading barbs. Can't imagine living with some of the people on this forum. I bet you all don't refill the icetrays and you leave the toilet seat up! LOL


Guilty... I have been known to leave the toilet seat up... sorry :surrender:


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## Immolatus (Feb 20, 2011)

kejmack said:


> I had never heard of the "American Redoubt" before this post... but after reading all the cranky replies it has re-affirmed my decision to "go it alone" and not be part of any survival community. We are not even in a survival situation and people are already trading barbs. Can't imagine living with some of the people on this forum. I bet you all don't refill the icetrays and you leave the toilet seat up! LOL


I would never leave the toilet seat up! Never! Why is that such a big deal that women will get that upset about it? 

Good points, but everyones just expressing their views, and since this is an anonymous internet forum, theres a little less need for tact.

As to the OP, I'll agree with Asatur that it seems a little cultish to me also, but I assume that his 'followers' (in the context of this discussion) and those of like mind are such a small percentage of the population as to be meaningless. Rawles is a little too religious for my tastes, in my eyes religion and personal freedom dont mix well. I cant even buy liquor in my county on Sunday.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

kejmack said:


> I had never heard of the "American Redoubt" before this post... but after reading all the cranky replies it has re-affirmed my decision to "go it alone" and not be part of any survival community. We are not even in a survival situation and people are already trading barbs. Can't imagine living with some of the people on this forum. I bet you all don't refill the icetrays and you leave the toilet seat up! LOL


I can understand where you are comming from, can't say that I totally agree about going it alone tho.

I agree that this should be a place to exchange knowledge and ideas, not a forum for "trading barbs".

I left a site almost a year ago for that very reason. There was way to much bickering, name calling and just generally pissy attitudes (very childish) towards each other.

If it starts happening on this site (and I truly hope it doe's not), you can color me gone. :crossfinger:


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## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

kejmack said:


> I had never heard of the "American Redoubt" before this post... but after reading all the cranky replies it has re-affirmed my decision to "go it alone" and not be part of any survival community. We are not even in a survival situation and people are already trading barbs. Can't imagine living with some of the people on this forum. I bet you all don't refill the icetrays and you leave the toilet seat up! LOL


 Don't worry about the toilet seat, I never flush. But I do poop in a bucket (Honey Bucket) in the winter, and set it outside to freeze till needed the next day. And for the record, I can't imagine you living with me either, I have had two (2) showers this year (sadly, I have become such a sissy'man in my old age).

And what is a "icetray", I get all the ice I need when I fill the water jugs from the creek.


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## Ponce (May 3, 2009)

Sourdough said:


> Don't worry about the toilet seat, I never flush. But I do poop in a bucket (Honey Bucket) in the winter, and set it outside to freeze till needed the next day. And for the record, I can't imagine you living with me either, I have had two (2) showers this year (sadly, I have become such a sissy'man in my old age).
> 
> And what is a "icetray", I get all the ice I need when I fill the water jugs from the creek.


Don't worry, at 71 you are not alone...........


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## dirtgrrl (Jun 5, 2011)

Not to worry Oldvet, most of us are much sweeter than Sourdough!


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## Sourdough (May 22, 2010)

dirtgrrl said:


> Not to worry Oldvet, most of us are much sweeter than Sourdough!


Word is hot sourdough smothered in butter and honey......... Ooooops, this is a family forum.


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