# Propane shortage



## weedygarden

Evidently there is a propane shortage. I have googled it to see the extent of the shortage, or the cause. The story is more demand due to wet crops and not the typical staggering of cops. As someone who has 2 extended family members who work in graineries, I was unaware that the drying of grains is accomplish via propane.

This story is more than a week old, but interesting. Like many things, the propane industry must distribute a certain amount of propane at a time and the demand has over stepped the typical distribution amounts.

http://www.kansascity.com/2013/10/26/4578701/propane-shortage-in-midwest-could.html



> Propane shortage in Midwest could affect harvests
> 
> October 26
> 
> The Associated Press
> 
> MANKATO, Minn. - Demand for propane to dry crops has spiked, leading to problems distributing the fuel to farms across the Midwest.
> 
> Two factors are contributing to the shortage: unusually wet crops and simultaneous harvests that are otherwise staggered through the fall, the Mankato Free Press reported (http://bit.ly/1a7oxo2 ).
> 
> Farmers get better prices for crops that are below a certain level of moisture. Without enough propane to remove excess moisture, farmers are likely to leave their crop in the field until they can get more of the fuel. That won't necessarily hurt yield but it raises the risk of having to harvest in snow season, which is more challenging.
> 
> "It's a short-term distribution problem," said Roger Leider, an executive with the Minnesota Propane Association. "The supply is good. It's just not here."
> 
> He said harvests in Nebraska and elsewhere are generally wrapped up by now, but farmers didn't get their crop in as early as usual. Now, harvests that are generally staggered are taking place at the same time, making it harder to get enough propane to all the farmers who need it.
> 
> Harvests of the state's corn crop have already been delayed.
> 
> About 20 percent of the state's corn crop was harvested as of Oct. 20, compared to the five-year average of 49 percent by that date. And that corn has a moisture level of 21 percent, slightly above the five-year average of 19 percent.
> 
> Leider predicted the propane shortfall would begin to ease up as early as the coming week.
> 
> Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/2013/10/26/4578701/propane-shortage-in-midwest-could.html#storylink=cpy


----------



## GrinnanBarrett

That is why I keep at least four spare 20 pound tanks at all times. Propane will only get us through a short term emergency so I like to keep it portable. Where I live now has restrictions on large farm type tanks for my back yard. I wanted to put one in to power my home generator but that got nixed by the inspectors from the city. The ordinance does not cover portable tanks like the ones used on my trailers or my outdoor grills. 

This is another reason I want to move out to the farm on a full time basis. GB


----------



## PrepN4Good

I have 4 20 pounders at home & 4 at the BOL...fortunately we haven't seen any shortages around here...yet. :2thumb:


----------



## Grimm

No shortage here. The trucks are still here weekly to fill everyone's tanks.


----------



## LincTex

No shortage whatsoever in Texas. That article clearly states its a distribution problem.



GrinnanBarrett said:


> That is why I keep at least four spare 20 pound tanks at all times. .... to power my home generator


Does your generator currently run OK on a 20lb'er? Most any over 4Kw won't if under a heavy load. You can always get 100lb tanks that hold 23 gallons each.


----------



## jsriley5

luckily not short here in fact I just bought another full tank and was pleasantly suprised that the prices are not up to where I had expected them to be. 48 bucks is a bite but I was actually expecting closer to 60 its been a whle since I bought any tanks and propane. I keep but I rarely use it  gonna burn some this winter in the big buddy I got I have a project of cleaning and painting my grill that needs done still. and some other stuff I can tinker with out there. ONce winters cold and dry hits I actually tend to feel like doing more


----------



## OldCootHillbilly

Real good way ta drive the price up. Ain't never seen a dry pipeline round these parts yet.


----------



## OHprepper

I can verify the high moisture in corn. We still haven't brought ours in because the moisture is at 19%. We need it around 15.


----------



## UncleJoe

No problems here. I have 10- 20lb tanks. When I empty one I stop at Tractor Supply on my way home and have it filled. $2.49/gal.


----------



## cowboyhermit

OHprepper said:


> I can verify the high moisture in corn. We still haven't brought ours in because the moisture is at 19%. We need it around 15.


I hate having to let a ripe crop sit in the field
Pretty much every drier around here has been switched to natural gas which at least is really cheap these days, still no fun working with tough grain though.


----------



## oldasrocks

They're jacking with the prices here in Missouri. I own 2-500 gallon tanks and only fill ever 1 1/2 yrs. One tank is still full but with so many things up in the air I want to get the 2nd filled. Normally I can shop around and find a decent price.


----------



## LincTex

oldasrocks said:


> They're jacking with the prices here in Missouri. One tank is still full but with so many things up in the air I want to get the 2nd filled. Normally I can shop around and find a decent price.


June/July/august is the time of year for best prices. Wait until then.


----------



## Jimmy24

I just installed a new 250 gal tank about 6 weeks ago. They filled it for $2.00 a gallon. I'm talking to them now to get another 250. They will do the same again, though they question my reasons for even the one 250. They estimate I will only use about 75-90 gallons a year.

My gas needs are not large at all, but if I get both tanks full, I can go years before running out. 

The prices here vary somewhat, but because the weather is not terrible in the winter, it stays pretty stable through out the year. I can buy it anytime for $2.29 a gal.

Jimmy


----------



## Meerkat

We only fill up 5 20 lb. tanks and one house tank of 80.lb.s.

The way I see it why stock up a bunch of supplies for the new SS troops to take. Every time in history the gov set up armies to control the people the first thing they did was confiscate the peoples goods.

I'll can and prepare some food but not a lot. We are tring to grow what we can eat and some to put up. Let the bastards work for it if they want it. 

America during the civil war took from the south to fed the troops, they will do it again if something happens bad enough to stockpile food and bullets.

The whole worlds army is practicing on our cities, that should tell you something. I don't think its for all the muslims they keep bringing in either.


----------



## weedygarden

Meerkat said:


> We only fill up 5 20 lb. tanks and one house tank of 80.lb.s.
> 
> The way I see it why stock up a bunch of supplies for the new SS troops to take. Every time in history the gov set up armies to control the people the first thing they did was confiscate the peoples goods.
> 
> I'll can and prepare some food but not a lot. We are tring to grow what we can eat and some to put up. Let the bastards work for it if they want it.
> 
> America during the civil war took from the south to fed the troops, they will do it again if something happens bad enough to stockpile food and bullets.
> 
> The whole worlds army is practicing on our cities, that should tell you something. I don't think its for all the muslims they keep bringing in either.


Meerkat, if you think the muslims will take your food, can up a bunch of pork. They won't want that!


----------



## *Andi

LincTex said:


> June/July/august is the time of year for best prices. Wait until then.


That is what we do ... They don't like to come down our road, so it was rather easy to talk them into putting in a 500 gal. tank.

They fill the first of July... well, as long as is not raining.


----------



## LincTex

Meerkat said:


> We only fill up 5 - 20 lb. tanks and one house tank of 80lbs. The way I see it why stock up a bunch of supplies for the new SS troops to take. Every time in history the gov set up armies to control the people the first thing they did was confiscate the peoples goods.


20lb'ers are SUPER duper easy to hide. I have enough stashed I need a map to remember where they are!


----------



## weedygarden

When I first began this thread based on an article I saw, it seemed that no one was affected by the "propane shortage".

I have a cousin who has a big hardware store in northern Idaho. His daughter, who is involved in the business posted this link today about propane.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/23/u...rices-and-bitter-cold.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0


----------



## Country Living

We've never had a problem getting propane.

Our 250 gallon tank was down to 50% this past weekend and that's my cutoff to call to get gas. I was going to wait until after the first of the month until Brian Williams talked about the shortage on NBC Nightly News Monday night. We were in town running errands Tuesday so we stopped by the dealer to see how much it was (delivered). $2.70/gallon and the price was going up again at the end of the day. Wow... it's not the highest we've ever paid; but, it's right next to it. We paid $2.35/gallon about three months ago. The delivery guy was out in our area that afternoon so he topped off both tanks. 

While we may not currently be experiencing a shortage, the price is going up because of supply and demand. However, I would not be surprised if some of the propane in the southern states doesn't get redirected to the Midwest and Northeast.


----------



## airdrop

With all the nature gas being produced today I wish they'd start laying lines and we could tell the propane guys to pound sand.


----------



## PrepN4Good

Country Living said:


> ...Brian Williams talked about the shortage on NBC Nightly News Monday night.


Same on CBS News last night. 



> While we may not currently be experiencing a shortage, the price is going up because of supply and demand. However, *I would not be surprised if some of the propane in the southern states doesn't get redirected to the Midwest and Northeast*.


Hey now! It's cold here in the South, too!!!!


----------



## Country Living

We didn't get above 35 degrees today and the snow that we weren't supposed to get started around noon. We're in for a hard freeze tonight along with a lake wind advisory.


----------



## grakita

I talked to a friend of mine in MN yesterday. They are limited to 200gal and it is at.... 5.00 per gal my son in Ashland WI confirmed the same. Per him it would be cheaper to heat his house with unleaded gas than propane. We are Ok at our BOL as the heat in on bare minimum and we filled prior to winter. Hope everything gets back to normal


----------



## backlash

Propane went up 40 cents a gallon in one day.
The day I bought it of course.
$3.40 a gallon here in central Washington.


----------



## crabapple

We use a lot of natural Gas at work, when it is really cold the price can double, so we switch to propane.
We get the propane in liquid form by the tanker full, we can store 2 tanker loads at a time.
We then mix the liquid to form a gas to burn.
In ten year we have had no problem getting the propane, not even once.
I am not sure, but I think with the amount we use, we would have heard if there was a shortage problem.


----------



## airdrop

It's kind of funny that a guy was interviewed a few weeks ago and propane business is chomping at the bit to sell propane overseas and WE'RE HAVING A SHORTAGE! Thier as bad as lawyers lol , with the well drilling out west theres so much gas an oil it's not funny so make a shortage and make money . We need to make it so they can't sell out of the country ,what ours is ours.


----------



## LincTex

grakita said:


> Per him it would be cheaper to heat his house with unleaded gas than propane.


He's right... and RUG has more BTU's per gallon than propane as well.

I'll bet you could do that with a modified propane vaporizer.

My grandfather had all kinds of gasoline powered "things", including cook stoves, lamps, and even a clothes iron!


----------



## BillS

Propane prices doubled here in Wisconsin but the price of kerosene at the pump at Mills Fleet Farm is up only 10% from $4.49 a gallon to $4.99 a gallon.


----------



## Country Living

The propane prices up north are going to get even higher - they're starting to ship it from Texas. Sure am glad we topped off our tanks several days ago.


----------



## jeff47041

10 days ago, I left a note for the lovely one to call and get the tank topped off because I heard we were headed for a shortage. (We were at 60%, so didn't need it) 

When I got home, her note said, "We're at 60% and the price is up 3%, so I didn't order any."

The price was $2.36 per gallon. Now, they want $6.50 a gallon. We're still at 40%. We turned 2 of the thermostats down to 58°, and one down to 50°. (We have 3 furnaces in our house)

Oh well, we'll just see what happens.


----------



## Country Living

You seem to be handling this quite well. 

This is the exact reason we put in a second (500 gallon) tank that we consider our "emergency backup" tank. We only use it when I have both tanks topped off to 85% and that's to get it down to 75% and that's where it stays until the next top-off.

We run off the 250 gallon tank for every day stuff and when it gets down to 50% I call for a delivery.


----------



## helicopter5472

We have a thousand gallon tank and fill it in the summer when the prices are down. I have two 57 gallon tanks and about (6) 5 gallon ones. We have propane heat, tankless propane water heater, and stove.
I have a pellet stove, wood stove, and electric heaters for backup. Also have a battery bank with two Trace inverters (220 volt) for the household electrical backup and well. We have used more propane this year with the cold weather but still have over half and should make it till spring. Prices for propane are thru the roof now and limited to two hundred gallons. Hope everyone else makes it and it warms up soon. I think I will stock more wood this summer as a safety for next winter.


----------



## Woody

I thought with all the Fracking we were allowing that they said gas would be plentiful and cheap? Isn't that the reason they fast tracked legislation to get them rolling along?

Maybe it is just me and the simple way I look at stuff. It costs no more to get it out of the ground than it did a month ago. It costs no more to store it. It costs less to truck it because gas prices have gone down. Yet, it cost twice as much now? Sure, sure, supply and demand. I went through this back in the 1980's when heating oil jumped from $.69 to $1.79 a gallon in a month one winter because of an unusually cold spell. But, who gets all this extra cash for a commodity that keeps folks alive? It would seem that, in the national interest, they would just ration NOT double the prices... why ration AND double the prices? Profiteering. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Capitalism at its finest. Road apples. This crap pisses me off but we, most folks anyway, are at their mercy. Pay the price or freeze.


----------



## Country Living

Unfortunately, economics are in play. Supply is short and demand is high. I'm not sure the allegations of price gorging are relevant because transportation costs to get the propane to the Midwest and Northeast are very high right now. The drivers have extended hours with overtime pay and there is more competition to get trucks to specific areas. 

You're also dealing with declining inventories, rising exports, a major pipeline supplying propane to Wisconsin, Minnesota and Iowa was shut down for maintenance in December - all compounded by the United States experiencing winter weather no one expected. Prices are up everywhere, even in Texas. If you look back over the past few years you'll see similar influences on the price you pay at the pump for gasoline. 

I suspect this summer a lot of people will be putting in an extra tank or a wood burning stove so they don't have to go through this again. For those people doing high-fives because they've not experiencing the propane shortage - it's just a matter of time before it's your turn to be short a commodity that's essential to your family.

This is one of those situations where people with either adapt or shrug it off as an anomaly. For many, it's a brutal lesson in contingency planning.


----------



## valannb22

I ordered propane the day after xmas, cost me $284. Called today to get another delivery and its almost $600 for the same amount!


----------



## dixiemama

Some natural gas is just as bad. Before our elderly neighbor died, her gas bill (small one room heater, stove, water heater and dryer) was $480 for one month. She was on the small town, mom and pop gas line that someone ran from their own personal well. 

Ours is a major gas company and due to stipulation in original deed selling the gas rights to them, we have a discounted, set rate that will never increase. 

There is a propane shortage in EKY as well as price gouging. 

Sent from my MB886 using Survival Forum mobile app


----------



## LincTex

Country Living said:


> Unfortunately, economics are in play. Supply is short and demand is high. I'm not sure the allegations of price gorging are relevant because transportation costs to get the propane to the Midwest and Northeast are very high right now. The drivers have extended hours with overtime pay and there is more competition to get trucks to specific areas.
> 
> You're also dealing with declining inventories, rising exports, a major pipeline supplying propane to Wisconsin, Minnesota and Iowa was shut down for maintenance
> 
> This is one of those situations where people with either adapt or shrug it off as an anomaly. For many, it's a brutal lesson in contingency planning.


Very true... 
remember all the people that bought propane ahead of time on a contract?
The prices people pay on the spot now make up for the losses for contracted priced deliveries.


----------



## TheLazyL

dixiemama said:


> ...price gouging. ...


I'm tired of that term.

Remember Econ 101? The law of supply and demand?

I have 100 widgets. The widgets cost me $1 each to engineer, develop and manufacturer. I hope I can sell them at $2 so I'll have a reasonable return on my investment, pay taxes, can expand production, pay taxes, hire more workers, pay taxes, retire at 75 and pay taxes.

I've got adult, mentality competent people offering me $5! Evidently there is a high demand for widgets and I've got a limited supply. "Price gouging!" some would say if I sold them for $5.

I put on a 2nd and 3rd shift. Manufacturing widgets 24x6. I've got bunches of widgets to sell at $5. No one buys. $4, $3, $2, finally at 50 cents I get Buyers. Supply is high but demand is low. Why isn't anyone yelling "Price too low?

If you think the price is too high then don't buy!


----------



## Woody

TheLazyL said:


> I'm tired of that term.
> 
> Remember Econ 101? The law of supply and demand?
> 
> I have 100 widgets. The widgets cost me $1 each to engineer, develop and manufacturer. I hope I can sell them at $2 so I'll have a reasonable return on my investment, pay taxes, can expand production, pay taxes, hire more workers, pay taxes, retire at 75 and pay taxes.
> 
> I've got adult, mentality competent people offering me $5! Evidently there is a high demand for widgets and I've got a limited supply. "Price gouging!" some would say if I sold them for $5.
> 
> I put on a 2nd and 3rd shift. Manufacturing widgets 24x6. I've got bunches of widgets to sell at $5. No one buys. $4, $3, $2, finally at 50 cents I get Buyers. Supply is high but demand is low. Why isn't anyone yelling "Price too low?
> 
> If you think the price is too high then don't buy!


Easy to put off a purchase when it is a widget, not so easy when you are locked into ONE way to heat your home. You are pretty much locked into paying whatever they want to keep warm. Pay the price or freeze. Whole different scenario.


----------



## Country Living

Two months ago I paid $2.35/gallon for propane. One week ago I paid $2.70/gallon. Today it's $2.85/gallon and still creeping up. 

You're right, Lazy... people scream like mad when prices go up and say very little when they go down. I think of this as dollar cost averaging. Sometimes it's high. Sometimes it's low. It is what it is when you need propane. You can either get a 1,000 gallon tank and try to fill it when propane is less expensive or have alternative plans for heating.

Everyone should have a contingency plan.


----------



## Woody

Country Living said:


> Unfortunately, economics are in play. Supply is short and demand is high. I'm not sure the allegations of price gorging are relevant because transportation costs to get the propane to the Midwest and Northeast are very high right now. The drivers have extended hours with overtime pay and there is more competition to get trucks to specific areas.
> 
> In my contracting business, I have a truck that blows an engine. Should I raise prices by 50% for a few months to pay for it? No, you suck it up and AVERAGE the price of it in your expenses. That is the cost of doing business. If folks do not like the 50% increase then can always put off that remodel or upgrade, they CAN'T put off getting fuel to heat their homes!
> 
> *You're also dealing with declining inventories*, I thought fracking was going to INCREASE the amount of available gas, that is what our politicians promised.rising exports, Again, what about us???a major pipeline supplying propane to Wisconsin, Minnesota and Iowa was shut down for maintenance in December Who was the genius that set this up? Let's do maintenance when we need gas the most TO HEAT PEOPLES HOMES- all compounded by the United States experiencing winter weather no one expected. True here. Al, the Goracle, said things would be getting warmer. As did the 'consensus of 'experts'. Who would have though 'global warming' would mean colder winters! Especially with the artic ice being gone, according to the experts. Remember the polar bears with no ice to live on?Prices are up everywhere, even in Texas. If you look back over the past few years you'll see similar influences on the price you pay at the pump for gasoline. Again, supply and demand. But who profits from these increases? It costs no more to produce but costs more to the consumer, follow the money.
> 
> I suspect this summer a lot of people will be putting in an extra tank or a wood burning stove so they don't have to go through this again. For those people doing high-fives because they've not experiencing the propane shortage - it's just a matter of time before it's your turn to be short a commodity that's essential to your family.
> 
> This is one of those situations where people with either adapt or shrug it off as an anomaly. For many, it's a brutal lesson in contingency planning.


Needed to add ten characters to post this...


----------



## LincTex

Woody said:


> You are pretty much locked into paying whatever they want to keep warm. Pay the price or freeze.


Thanks to: "Normalcy Bias"



Country Living said:


> Everyone should have a contingency plan.


Yeah, the problem is most people don't.

"But.....It's always been there!!"

Thus the cry heard in the future concerning running water, electricity, the hospital, gasoline, propane, etc. etc etc. etc.


----------



## JayJay

I started using the central heat today!


----------



## JayJay

valannb22 said:


> I ordered propane the day after xmas, cost me $284. Called today to get another delivery and its almost $600 for the same amount!


Which is why I started using our central heat today.

How many gallons? If you don't mind.


----------



## valannb22

That's for 125 gallons, its the minimum that they'll deliver


----------



## valannb22

Chad just got off the phone with the propane company again. Right now the price is $4.89 a gallon, and it's going up to $5.89 tomorrow BUT they'll give it to us for $3.51 a gallon IF we fill our tank all the way today. Sounds like a bunch of crap, but if it saves me $2 a gallon guess I'll have to do it.


----------



## crabapple

A friend just moved out of state & left us with some frozen foods & a 20 pound propane tank for our new grill.
So I now have 3 tanks to store propane in.


----------



## BillS

Woody said:


> Easy to put off a purchase when it is a widget, not so easy when you are locked into ONE way to heat your home. You are pretty much locked into paying whatever they want to keep warm. Pay the price or freeze. Whole different scenario.


No, they're not locked into one way to heat their home. They could buy electric heaters or kerosene heaters or put in a wood stove.

Besides, supply and demand is what it is. You can't expect to be exempt from the laws of supply and demand due to hardship reasons. It doesn't work that way.


----------



## moondancer

I'm in Indiana and a friend of mine just had to pay 5.25 a gal and they only filled it 75% and was told it's going up fri and there is a waiting list


----------



## weedygarden

I wonder if the price will go down in the summer?


----------



## valannb22

Went ahead and filled up $703 and some change. Yikes!


----------



## Country Living

$703 / $3.51 = 200 gallons. You were pretty low if you have a 250 gallon tank.


----------



## BillS

Woody said:


> Needed to add ten characters to post this...


_In my contracting business, I have a truck that blows an engine. Should I raise prices by 50% for a few months to pay for it? No, you suck it up and AVERAGE the price of it in your expenses. That is the cost of doing business. If folks do not like the 50% increase then can always put off that remodel or upgrade, they CAN'T put off getting fuel to heat their homes! 
_

No, if you have a contracting business you have a budget for truck repair expenses. You don't adjust your prices on an ongoing basis based on one vehicle repair.

It doesn't matter if people can't afford it. It costs more for the fuel at the wholesale level. It costs more to deliver that fuel. The fact that PEOPLE NEED FUEL TO HEAT THEIR HOMES doesn't change the basic facts of economics. The fact that someone ACTUALLY PROFITS from it is irrelevant and is in no way immoral. If you complain about that you might as well complain that water doesn't flow uphill.

_You're also dealing with declining inventories, I thought fracking was going to INCREASE the amount of available gas, that is what our politicians promised.rising exports, Again, what about us???a major pipeline supplying propane to Wisconsin, Minnesota and Iowa was shut down for maintenance in December Who was the genius that set this up? Let's do maintenance when we need gas the most TO HEAT PEOPLES HOMES- all compounded by the United States experiencing winter weather no one expected. True here. Al, the Goracle, said things would be getting warmer. As did the 'consensus of 'experts'. Who would have though 'global warming' would mean colder winters! Especially with the artic ice being gone, according to the experts. Remember the polar bears with no ice to live on?Prices are up everywhere, even in Texas. If you look back over the past few years you'll see similar influences on the price you pay at the pump for gasoline. Again, supply and demand. But who profits from these increases? It costs no more to produce but costs more to the consumer, follow the money._

I'm sorry but that all sounds like liberal nonsense to me on so many levels.

To keep it simple, you either sign a contract for your fuel or pay the spot price. If the price goes down you'd have people whining that they got shafted by the higher contract price. In this case, you have people complaining that their fuel costs went up. Yes, I understand the potential hardships involved but that doesn't change economics.


----------



## valannb22

Country Living said:


> $703 / $3.51 = 200 gallons. You were pretty low if you have a 250 gallon tank.


Yeah it was about out


----------



## LincTex

weedygarden said:


> I wonder if the price will go down in the summer?


Most likely


----------



## k0xxx

In our area of Arkansas it's currently $3.99 a gallon, up from $2.39 when I filled up in September. We only use propane for our water heater and stove, so we're good for at least 6 to 8 months with what we have on hand. If it gets back down to a reasonable level this Spring or Summer, we'll top off then. If it stays up, it looks like a wood boiler is in our future.


----------



## helicopter5472

I checked the prices here in mid Maine. $2.96/9 ($2.97) No limit on amount delivered. Last time I filled it was at 2.37 a gallon.


----------



## TheLazyL

I'm on automatic fill.

End of December a fill up and then January-Feburay again depending on the temperatures.

This season I got a fill middle of November and none since. Last night I tried to read the tank gauge and couldn't. 

I've been with the same LP company for 18 years and they have never let me down yet. But I'm thinking I may be running on fumes like valannb22. Wish I had remember to bring a LP invoice with me to work so I'd have my customer number. I'll have to give the LP people a call and ask.


----------



## LincTex

helicopter5472 said:


> I checked the prices here in mid Maine. $2.96/9 ($2.97) No limit on amount delivered. Last time I filled it was at 2.37 a gallon.


You probably get it from the Irving Oil Refinery in Saint John, New Brunswick.

No shortages, there.


----------



## Country Living

For all of you experiencing shortages and/or high prices, what will you do to mitigate these or similar problems in the future? What lessons could be learned and shared?


----------



## TheLazyL

Country Living said:


> For all of you experiencing shortages and/or high prices, what will you do to mitigate these or similar problems in the future? What lessons could be learned and shared?


Well...think I'll get a hold of the not so local natural gas company to see what and how much to extend their gas line to my place. 

That wood pellet boiler that I almost bought 5 years ago, I should have bought.


----------



## valannb22

Country Living said:


> For all of you experiencing shortages and/or high prices, what will you do to mitigate these or similar problems in the future? What lessons could be learned and shared?


Definitely keeping the heater turned down a couple degrees for now. This summer, we'll probably be putting in a larger tank and will be filling it in the warmer months. I'd like to put in a wood burning stove, but we live in a mobile home, so don't know how safe that is. I worry about it being too heavy or getting too hot.


----------



## jeff47041

Country Living said:


> For all of you experiencing shortages and/or high prices, what will you do to mitigate these or similar problems in the future? What lessons could be learned and shared?


This past summer, it was in our plan to get a small wood burner for in our dining room. We didn't. Now we will. and that would take care of heating our kitchen, dining, and living room.

Next, we were thinking either a wood burner in the garage That can attach to the apartment furnace, and the second floor furnace of our house for the lovely ones office and all of the bedrooms.

We keep considering an outdoor wood burner. That could hook up to all 3 of the furnaces and the water heater. I don't hear many good things about the newer outdoor wood burners. Everyone keeps telling me that the newer ones don't work very well due to something that the EPA made manufacturers do to them.
One way or another, I'll have at least some wood heat in the house for next winter.


----------



## moondancer

valannb22 said:


> Definitely keeping the heater turned down a couple degrees for now. This summer, we'll probably be putting in a larger tank and will be filling it in the warmer months. I'd like to put in a wood burning stove, but we live in a mobile home, so don't know how safe that is. I worry about it being too heavy or getting too hot.


I grew up in a trailer while dad built the house we had a wood stove it's just fine as long as you know what your doing . My family has always burned wood for heat do I was born with it and my father and his and do on . But I know it scares some people I have a friend in real money trouble and uses his oven for heat I gave him a wood stove he was to scared to hook it up .


----------



## goshengirl

valannb22 said:


> Definitely keeping the heater turned down a couple degrees for now. This summer, we'll probably be putting in a larger tank and will be filling it in the warmer months. I'd like to put in a wood burning stove, but we live in a mobile home, so don't know how safe that is. I worry about it being too heavy or getting too hot.


I don't have experience with this, but I do know that some wood stoves are rated as being okay for mobile homes, if that helps.

ETA: Such as in the description of this wood stove: Tractor Supply Company


----------



## Woody

Let me grab a brandy and post back...



BillS said:


> _In my contracting business, I have a truck that blows an engine. Should I raise prices by 50% for a few months to pay for it? No, you suck it up and AVERAGE the price of it in your expenses. That is the cost of doing business. If folks do not like the 50% increase then can always put off that remodel or upgrade, they CAN'T put off getting fuel to heat their homes!
> _
> 
> No, if you have a contracting business you have a budget for truck repair expenses. You don't adjust your prices on an ongoing basis based on one vehicle repair.
> 
> But I would adjust my seasonal prices based on seasonal changes I knew were coming? Isn't this the same thing? OMG this winter was really cold!!! I should charge much more because I didn't know the winter would be cold.
> 
> *It doesn't matter if people can't afford it.*
> 
> Well there ya go! F&%k em. They can' afford it let them go cold!!! The sheeple should have known that gas was going to go from $2 to $5 a gallon this winter!
> 
> It costs more for the fuel at the wholesale level. It costs more to deliver that fuel.
> 
> Ok, so why does it cost twice as much? Who if profiting fro that?
> 
> The fact that PEOPLE NEED FUEL TO HEAT THEIR HOMES doesn't change the basic facts of economics.
> 
> ="red"]'ll give you that.[/COLOR]The fact that someone ACTUALLY PROFITS from it is irrelevant and is in no way immoral. If you complain about that you might as well complain that water doesn't flow uphill.
> 
> Let me go out back and check.... No water still flows downhill at my place. I have to break through the ice but it still flows downhill.
> 
> _You're also dealing with declining inventories, I thought fracking was going to INCREASE the amount of available gas, that is what our politicians promised.rising exports, Again, what about us???a major pipeline supplying propane to Wisconsin, Minnesota and Iowa was shut down for maintenance in December Who was the genius that set this up? Let's do maintenance when we need gas the most TO HEAT PEOPLES HOMES- all compounded by the United States experiencing winter weather no one expected. True here. Al, the Goracle, said things would be getting warmer. As did the 'consensus of 'experts'. Who would have though 'global warming' would mean colder winters! Especially with the artic ice being gone, according to the experts. Remember the polar bears with no ice to live on?Prices are up everywhere, even in Texas. If you look back over the past few years you'll see similar influences on the price you pay at the pump for gasoline. Again, supply and demand. But who profits from these increases? It costs no more to produce but costs more to the consumer, follow the money._
> 
> I'm sorry but that all sounds like liberal nonsense to me on so many levels.
> 
> How is this 'liberal nonsense'? All We heard bout fracking was that it would increase 'domestic supply' and make us more energy independent. Prices would be lower, supply up, land of milk and honey!!!
> 
> To keep it simple, you either sign a contract for your fuel or pay the spot price.
> 
> Ahhhh.. Speculating on our energy costs. IF I had "BET" the price was going to go down, would I have made money? IF I had bet the price was going to go up, would I have made money?
> 
> If the price goes down you'd have people whining that they got shafted by the higher contract price.
> 
> SURE! If I had bought a thousand shares/GALLONS and the price fell, I'd be pissed. If I had bought a thousand gallons of paper and the price went up, I'd be a happy clam!, What matter to the most of us here is what is what costs us NOW. If you had to take PHYSICAL delivery of 1,000gallons of fuel in the summer, it would be a different storyIn this case, you have people complaining that their fuel costs went up. Yes, I understand the potential hardships involved but that doesn't change economics.


Economics, Economics... Back to my original truck predicament. It was unusually cold this winter, Who should pay for my misfortune at having a truck go kaput that I did not expect?


----------



## Country Living

Gee, Woody, do you go through all that when the price of gasoline goes up?


----------



## Woody

Sorry for the horrible trying to quote stuff.


----------



## lotsoflead

you can put a wood stove in anything, even a small wood stove in a camper on wheels, just keep it setting on firebrick or something fireproof.. 
keep the stove and pipe at least 18 inches from the walls and don't over load it, use at least 3 screws to connect the pipes and a double walled thimble where you go thru the wall. if you want a hotter fire, open the bottom draft, if you want to put the stove out , close the bottom draft and close the damper in the pipe almost all the way, just enough to let out the smoke. control the fire with the draft. in my short 74 plus yrs, I've used coal stoves for wood and wood stoves for coal, after a while, a person can adapt if they're careful and learn from their mistakes., I 've seen city slickers come up here that didn't even know how to strike a match, now they're experts when in comes to cutting and burning wood.


ps don't have the stove burning if the camper is moving.


----------



## Woody

Country Living said:


> Gee, Woody, do you go through all that when the price of gasoline goes up?


HELL YES! The price going up or down.

I make a widget of heat, it is a good widget and everyone loves it. Winter hits. It is a cold winter, I have a widget at $1 each. Bill offers a widget at $.50 each. Mine are now $2.00. You would have to spend $500 to convert to Bills, or pay my $2.59 to stay with me. Tomorrow Bill might want $8.00 A WIDGET. I might what $$.25.

As BillS points out, it is our choice. We can choose who we decide to get our heating fuel from. For the rest of us, it is not that simple.


----------



## VoorTrekker

Doesn't this shortages and price hikes happen every time a Democrat president is in office? Just saying...

1977 "energy crisis" was allegedly a hoax, I'm wondering if this one is a hoax as well.


----------



## k0xxx

Country Living said:


> For all of you experiencing shortages and/or high prices, what will you do to mitigate these or similar problems in the future? What lessons could be learned and shared?


Probably nothing. I already have two 250 gallon tanks. One is for a generator, but can be switched to the house if needed. If I do run out of propane, I can cook on/in the wood stove. The only other thing we use propane for is the water heater, and we've done without it for weeks, when we were without electricity due to an ice storm. For us, propane is convenience, but definitely not a necessity.

Although..., a wood boiler is looking mighty tempting.


----------



## LincTex

k0xxx said:


> Although..., a wood boiler is looking mighty tempting.


I made one from an old 30 gallon gas water heater a neighbor tossed out. I have solar water heat only at the BOL. I thought having a small wood fired water heater might come in handy. A little extra plumbing, a car radiator and a cheap box fan would make it hot water heat as well!


----------



## Riverdale

Last drop we had (just before Christmas) was $2.44/gal.
Drop we just paid for (yesterday) was $4.79/gal
The Michigan AG is looking into price gouging.
I am putting a pellet/multifuel stove in this year.

BTW we sold a meteric buttload of propane to China last summer.........


----------



## Riverdale

Ohh yeah, and the EPA has passed new 'regulations' that pretty much kills conventional wood stoves after 2015. Can't do squat if you have'em in before.


----------



## VoorTrekker

k0xxx, I like your new avatar.


----------



## simplymom

Thank goodness 99% of our heat is done by wood. I am going to be looking into seeking a way for our wood furnace to heat our water. Propane prices went from 2.35 to 5.25 in one day. Have seen on the news where it is 8.25. Temps are -16 and more with wind chills . We ordered propane when is was lower just to be on the safe side. They are not limiting how much propane people can order yet in my area but that could change at anytime. Hopefully the weather will start warming up.

This is just one of the reasons to be prepared for everything.



Sent from my iPad using Survival Forum


----------



## k0xxx

LincTex said:


> I made one from an old 30 gallon gas water heater a neighbor tossed out. I have solar water heat only at the BOL. I thought having a small wood fired water heater might come in handy. A little extra plumbing, a car radiator and a cheap box fan would make it hot water heat as well!


I toyed with the idea of a solar furnace water heater to heat my ham shack. I thought that I'd use a solar panel and 12v pump, to pump a coolant/water mixture though tubing and a radiator, a parabolic mirror to concentrator sunlight on a coil of the tubing, and a barrel as a heat reservoir. While it would have been an interesting project, I decided instead to just use my old pot bellied wood stove.

Now I'm thinking about wrapping some tubing around the stove to heat water...


----------



## LincTex

k0xxx said:


> I thought that I'd use a solar panel and 12v pump, to pump a coolant/water mixture though tubing and a radiator, a parabolic mirror to concentrator sunlight on a coil of the tubing, and a barrel as a heat reservoir.


Sounds like something I would have tried... or will try someday!


----------



## TheLazyL

Riverdale said:


> Last drop we had (just before Christmas) was $2.44/gal.
> Drop we just paid for (yesterday) was $4.79/gal


My 250 gallon LP tank was filled this morning (I'm on the auto fill plan).

200 gallons in a 250 gallon tank at $4.069 per gallon.


----------



## Country Living

If you got 200 gallons, then you were just about empty. I'm assuming all propane companies have the guidelines that if a tank runs empty they have to run diagnostics on it and that can get pricey.

For those of you on these small tanks (I consider 250 a small tank), have you thought about adding an additional tank and pig tailing the two tanks together or replacing the 250 with a larger one?


----------



## lilmissy0740

Daughter just got filled and her propane was $4.44 a gallon?



Sent from my iPad using Survival Forum


----------



## LincTex

Country Living said:


> I'm assuming all propane companies have the guidelines that if a tank runs empty they have to run diagnostics on it and that can get pricey.


If that's the case, I would just empty a full 20lb'er into the big one. Hey, it's 4 gallons... so its not empty, right?


----------



## TheLazyL

Country Living said:


> ...have you thought about adding an additional tank and pig tailing the two tanks together or replacing the 250 with a larger one?


I thought about it.

Fill twice as often for $800 per fill or half as many fills for $1,600 per. 

Or go with a budget plan with the LP Company and let them use my money interest free. 

Better yet. Organize the neighbors to petition the local natural gas utility to extend their line. :2thumb:


----------



## Country Living

I paid $2.70/gallon for propane three weeks ago. It's now $3.20/gallon. My propane supplier has a small printed brochure that's titled "A message to you about propane prices".

Some bullet points.

Record high crude oil prices have been the highest since 1991.
Record high natural gas prices
Low U.S. propane inventory levels are the lowest since 1996
Low propane imports. Total U.S. propane imports have fallen over the last two years, largely due to rapidly growing markets in countries like Mexico and China. Imports, which mostly come from Canada, make up 10% of the U.S. supply.

"Wholesale propane prices have more than doubled from what they were last year. As a result, we and the propane marketers across the country are paying more for our propane supply."

Adding to the increased costs for the northern part of the U.S. are the transportation costs to move the propane from areas that have it to areas that are in short supply.

When the prices fall to a reasonable level, hopefully this summer, we're going to put in a 1,000 gallon tank that will be the backup to our 500 gallon tank which is the backup to our 250 gallon tank which is our primary tank.


----------



## JayJay

LincTex said:


> If that's the case, I would just empty a full 20lb'er into the big one. Hey, it's 4 gallons... so its not empty, right?


Our gas company suggests to call @ 20 %; the price if it gets empty is $25.
Our gas here 2 weeks ago was $4; I had 30% at the time so I told Gene nope---I just put up sheets and heat the rooms we need. 
Have open concept house--hate it and am looking to install partitions on the openings if I can afford 8 ft. on two doorways.


----------



## LincTex

Country Living said:


> When the prices fall to a reasonable level, hopefully this summer, we're going to put in a 1,000 gallon tank that will be the backup to our 500 gallon tank which is the backup to our 250 gallon tank which is our primary tank.


I think a LOT of folks have the same idea in mind!!

I wouldn't be surprised to find the price drop isn't very much come summer 



JayJay said:


> Our gas company suggests to call @ 20 %; the price if it gets empty is $25.


Just another way "they" put the screws to "us". 
That's totally unfair, my tank gauge on my 250 gallon says "zero" when there's still 15-20 gallons in it!!!!


----------



## Woody

So, the question still stands. What happened to all this 'cheap' natural gas that was going to be available when they fast tracked all the fracking wells? It wasn't billed as a 'lets see what the market will bear' kind of thing, it was CHEAP ENERGY FOR EVERYONE!


----------



## drgnhntr37

Woody said:


> So, the question still stands. What happened to all this 'cheap' natural gas that was going to be available when they fast tracked all the fracking wells? It wasn't billed as a 'lets see what the market will bear' kind of thing, it was CHEAP ENERGY FOR EVERYONE!


I'm glad I'm not the only one that remembers this.

Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


----------



## Country Living

LincTex said:


> I think a LOT of folks have the same idea in mind!!
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised to find the price drop isn't very much come summer


I'll do the same thing I did the last time we bought a propane tank. We agree on the price of the tank and after that is done we negotiate the price of the propane. I got a nice discount since we were filling an empty tank. It also helps to pay cash.

We've only bought used tanks in the past. Do any of you know if there is an advantage of buying new versus used?


----------



## k0xxx

Woody said:


> So, the question still stands. What happened to all this 'cheap' natural gas that was going to be available when they fast tracked all the fracking wells? It wasn't billed as a 'lets see what the market will bear' kind of thing, it was CHEAP ENERGY FOR EVERYONE!


In a word: Exports

We are now exporting record amounts of LNG (Liquified Natural Gas) and export plans are ramping up. The Administration had been force feeding natural gas to the power generation industry as it strangles coal usage, while at the same time relaxing export controls on LNG. This, combined with the coldest Winter in decades, has pushed supplies down and prices up.


----------



## LincTex

Country Living said:


> We've only bought used tanks in the past. Do any of you know if there is an advantage of buying new versus used?


I can't think of one. 
Used ones are everywhere and don't cost much. As long as the data tag is still on and readable, I have never heard of one getting rejected for a refill.


----------



## lotsoflead

Country Living said:


> I'll do the same thing I did the last time we bought a propane tank. We agree on the price of the tank and after that is done we negotiate the price of the propane. I got a nice discount since we were filling an empty tank. It also helps to pay cash.
> 
> We've only bought used tanks in the past. Do any of you know if there is an advantage of buying new versus used?


a new one, you're good to go for ten yrs, a used one may have a date stamped in it that runs out in a month, then you'll have to take it to a place that pressure tests it and re stamps it so it can be filled, for a fee of coarse. I like the place here that has trade a tank, bring in the empty that has almost expired the date and pick up a full one with a good date.


----------



## TheLazyL

lotsoflead said:


> a new one, you're good to go for ten yrs, a used one may have a date stamped in it that runs out ....


The only local LP Provider gave me the option of purchasing or renting. I rent for $10 a year.


----------



## LincTex

lotsoflead said:


> a new one, you're good to go for ten yrs, a used one may have a date stamped in it that runs out in a month,..., bring in the empty that has almost expired the date and pick up a full one with a good date.


That applies only to "transportable" D.O.T. approved tanks. (100 lb and smaller)

The large stationary tanks sitting on concrete blocks in the backyards of many homes do not have a date restriction like that. Mine's from 1983 - no issues. It's been repainted once. Others in Texas I have seen that are still in use are from the early 50's.


----------



## k0xxx

TheLazyL said:


> The only local LP Provider gave me the option of purchasing or renting. I rent for $10 a year.


I had originally wanted to use my existing tank as a back-up and rent one from the supplier as our normal use tank. Unfortunately, when we switched to wood heat instead of the propane fueled central heat, our usage has dropped below the point where they will rent us a tank. It was the same thing with the other suppliers in the area. We ended up purchasing a used second tank.

I'd recommend anyone considering purchasing a used tank to speak to their suppliers and be sure what is required. In our state a tank has to have a plate with a state ID and certification number on it. It was good to know, since we had been looking at purchasing one from Missouri.


----------



## lotsoflead

One of the bst advantages of owning your own tank is that you can shop around for the best price, you're not stuck with the company that owns the tank. here companies would rather you own the tank as if they bring a tank and you only use it for a kitchen stove, they'll never get any return on the tank.


----------



## Woody

k0xxx said:


> In a word: Exports
> 
> We are now exporting record amounts of LNG (Liquified Natural Gas) and export plans are ramping up. The Administration had been force feeding natural gas to the power generation industry as it strangles coal usage, while at the same time relaxing export controls on LNG. This, combined with the coldest Winter in decades, has pushed supplies down and prices up.


Ahhh. I thought as much. Kind of like the XL pipeline they are pushing through to 'ensure domestic energy security'. We have heard this for years and years... "We need to increase domestic energy production to make us independent from the fluctuating world market!!!" Oh, and keep us safe 'or the terrorists win'. I believe we also keep the children safe this way too, or so I was told.


----------



## weedygarden

I am wondering about how prices are these days, especially since prices are supposed to drop in the summer?


----------



## *Andi

My summer fill price per the other day was 2.79 which is below the state average.

http://www.virginiagasprices.com/Prices_Nationally.aspx


----------



## farmboy223

I work for a small propane company i mid indiana. Over the winter our prices went up to 6.50 a gal. We are now back to normal summer fill prices. We had to go into survival mode as a company. Only filling home heat customers with 150-200 gal. At a time. We actually stopped filling grill tanks for a few weeks to save gas. We caught some flak from customers on the price. But our price to get the fuel to our bulk tanks was just as ridiculous as the price our customers were paying. We now have customers with a 250 or 120 requesting 500 or 1000 gal tanks. And i completely understand where they are coming from. 


Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


----------



## OldCootHillbilly

Now that the "season" is over, prices round here dropped back ta normal. There were never any shortage in these parts, just screamin high prices. How can we go from a huge surplus ta this huge shortage? 

I ain't blamin the dealers, this goes above them. Somebody wanted a nice fat profit and they done figured out how ta get it. I got a couple 100 pound tanks what I'll be fillin long before the price climbs again.


----------



## Geek999

Propane gets produced at a pretty steady rate but the demand is seasonal, so the price is going to go up and down with the seasons. This winter was also a record cold winter, exacerbating the usual cycle. The folks that are putting in larger tanks due to the experience are doing exactly what we as preppers should be doing, i.e. preparing for it to happen again and stocking up while the prices are reasonable and the product is available.


----------



## LincTex

The places that fill small bottles only (RV parks, farm supply stores) have not yet lowered their prices.... they were slow to climb... but now are slow to come back down again.


----------



## Country Living

Propane for the big tanks (not portables) is $2.80/gallon down from $3.15/gallon a month ago. Our propane driver said prices will go down more about the middle of June if we can wait (we can) and possibly down even more in July.


----------



## *Andi

A nice little surprise ... They fill my tank yesterday at a price of 2.599, 20 cents cheaper than the quote... Plus an extra 10% off if I pay within 10days.


----------



## timmie

friday i filled 4-20 pound tanks for 10 dollars each


----------



## JayJay

Country Living said:


> Propane for the big tanks (not portables) is $2.80/gallon down from $3.15/gallon a month ago. Our propane driver said prices will go down more about the middle of June if we can wait (we can) and possibly down even more in July.


The company we use has a summer refill discount.
Last summer, it was $1.50 a gallon, cash only. My thinking is it is to generate revenue when business is slow.
It took over a month to get delivered, so not a great thing if you need it in a hurry.

I'm betting it won't be $1.50 this summer. But maybe $2.


----------



## farmboy223

We are summer filling for $2.189. With 20# cylinders back to normal at $13. From what i herd about the winter shortage 40% of the inventory was exported. That with a high usage for crop drying made the pipeline price go up. Until everyone screamed price gouging. Then the price dropped about $2 a gal. 


Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


----------



## hiwall

Called to check the price here and its $2.39 delivered. Small tank fills are $2.10 gallon. I have been watching Craigslist daily because I want another big tank- no luck so far.


----------



## musketjim

Haven't checked here as we've been forward stocked for quite awhile. Worth a call tho.


----------



## zimmy

*Propane*

I buy my 100lb tanks at Ace Hardware and have them filled there also. I plan to buy two more tanks and was told that July 4th is the magic date for discounts, just not sure why. I use the propane for heating so no problem in waiting. I have propane, elec baseboard, and wood boiler heat, all I need now is a mini split heat pump to complete my circle of heating.


----------



## LincTex

zimmy said:


> I buy my 100lb tanks at Ace Hardware and have them filled there also. I plan to buy two more tanks ...


I like 100 lb tanks. They definitely have their use.

However, I feel if a person needs more than two ... then its time to step up to a 100-150 gallon (or more) tank. To fill a 100 lb tank (23 gallons) is $76, that's $3.30 a gallon! You can usually get it for half that amount in bulk.


----------



## helicopter5472

I just called my local provider, I have a 1000 gal. tank and going by bulk rate here in Maine it's $2.96 a gal. We will be lucky to see a summer rate below $2.60 gal. So all of you in the mid west and south smile cause you get it cheaper.


----------



## zimmy

*Propane*

I like the 100lb propane tanks because I can take and get them filled when and where I want to. Once my circle of heat sources are completed, it could be a very long time before fill ups. I also don't like the idea of a delivery service coming to the house for tank fills. I'll stick with the (4) 100lb tanks even if it cost more per fill ups, for the sake of OPSEC.


----------



## TheLazyL

I rent ($1 per year) a 500 gallon tank. I use just over 2,000 gallons a year.

I called my Local LP Provider to ask about a 2,000 gallon tank and would I get a discounted price for buying a larger quantity at a time?

2,000 gallon tank I would have to purchase and pay for delivery and setup.

No I would not get a discount for buying larger quantity at a time.

BUT.

They can contract to purchase at the low summer rate and store for me 2,000 gallons ($50 annual storage fee). My cost per gallon is the summer rate. No spikes during the winter heating months or during market panics. If I don't quite use 2,000 in year they normal look the other way. Any LP over the 2,000 I would pay the current going rate.

Considering during last winter's "shortage" a refuel price was just about doubled normal, a $50 storage fee will recouped on the first winter refill.

Told them to send the contract and I'll sign it.


----------



## LincTex

zimmy said:


> I also don't like the idea of a delivery service coming to the house for tank fills. I'll stick with the (4) 100lb tanks even if it cost more per fill ups, for the sake of OPSEC.


That's perfectly understandable


----------



## LincTex

TheLazyL said:


> I use just over 2,000 gallons a year.


Holy Crap!

For me...
2000 gallons x $2.50 (guessing) = $5000 a year, that's *10% of my income!!!*

I would be looking for ways to conserve energy.... a LOT.

I think its appalling we spend $2500 a year on _gasoline_.


----------



## Country Living

zimmy said:


> I like the 100lb propane tanks because I can take and get them filled when and where I want to. Once my circle of heat sources are completed, it could be a very long time before fill ups. I also don't like the idea of a delivery service coming to the house for tank fills. I'll stick with the (4) 100lb tanks even if it cost more per fill ups, for the sake of OPSEC.


Everyone out in the boonies in this part of Texas has large propane tanks so a delivery to us is simply a delivery to a normal customer. We just don't make a big deal of anything so there's nothing memorable about us.



TheLazyL said:


> <snip>
> They can contract to purchase at the low summer rate and store for me 2,000 gallons ($50 annual storage fee). My cost per gallon is the summer rate. No spikes during the winter heating months or during market panics. If I don't quite use 2,000 in year they normal look the other way. Any LP over the 2,000 I would pay the current going rate.
> 
> Considering during last winter's "shortage" a refuel price was just about doubled normal, a $50 storage fee will recouped on the first winter refill.
> 
> Told them to send the contract and I'll sign it.


I have not heard of that option. However, the more I think about it the more I would prefer having propane on our property because a lot of things can go wrong between now and then and there and here.

2,000 gallons? Wow.... that's about four years of propane for us and that's with a gas stove, gas water heater, small heater (for the office), a 19cf gas refrigerator, and a 16kw residential generator (average 5 utility blackouts a year for about four to ten hours each). We heat the house with a wood stove and that's probably where the difference lies.


----------



## helicopter5472

LincTex said:


> Holy Crap!
> 
> For me...
> 2000 gallons x $2.50 (guessing) = $5000 a year, that's *10% of my income!!!*
> 
> I would be looking for ways to conserve energy.... a LOT.
> 
> I think its appalling we spend $2500 a year on _gasoline_.


I live in Maine, my heat, hot water, and cooking are all propane. I use about 800 gallons a year....  2000 gallons, maybe the neighbor is secretly tapping in...


----------



## BillM

*Propane*

I use between 500 and 650 gallons of propane per year. This is used cooking , heating the shop, emergency heat for my home and running a propane generator for electricity if the power goes down.

I have a 1000 gallon tank and it will hold 800 gallons at full charge. In an emergency, we could shut off the heat in the shop and go about two years on 800 gallons.

I have the tank topped off in June when propane is the cheapest and as long as I fill it once per year, there is no tank charge or rental.


----------



## Country Living

BillM said:


> I use between 500 and 650 gallons of propane per year. This is used cooking , heating the shop, emergency heat for my home and running a propane generator for electricity if the power goes down.
> 
> I have a 1000 gallon tank and it will hold 800 gallons at full charge. In an emergency, we could shut off the heat in the shop and go about two years on 800 gallons.
> 
> I have the tank topped off in June when propane is the cheapest and as long as I fill it once per year, there is no tank charge or rental.


We are seriously thinking about adding a 1,000 gallon tank to our propane stable (we own our tanks). Right now our primary is a 250 gallon tank. Our "backup" is a 500 gallon tank (we only use it after the tanks are topped off to get it down to a 75% level and then it's not used). Our 19cf gas fridge uses about 130 gallons a year. That number would go up a bit more in a grid-down situation when it becomes the primary fridge. The stove and water heater use minimal propane. The office heater would be turned off and the generator would be rarely used if the grid went down.

Doing the math, without running the generator or the office heater, we have about 2.5 years of propane on hand when both tanks are at 75%. Tanks are not going to get any cheaper so this year just might be the time we get the third tank. If I have all three tanks - with the two larger ones being at capacity at all times - then we'll have about 1,400 gallons of propane on hand if there is an event.

Some of you may think this is nuts. However, we have an arrangement with the propane dealer that everything goes off the small tank and that's because a long time ago you had to be down to 25% to get a delivery (they have since stopped that practice). When I called for a delivery, I gave them the number off the small tank. When propane is delivered, both tanks are topped off.

Also, as with Bill, I prefer to buy in the summer when propane is reasonable than getting slammed like some of you did this winter with high prices and scarce product.

There's also another reason for us to increase our stable of tanks. In Texas (probably something similar in other states), the county sheriff has the legal right to confiscate gasoline and diesel if there is an event. Since more local and state vehicles are changing over to propane, there might be a chance, albeit small right now, that propane gets lumped into the confiscation bundle and it cannot be delivered until the sheriff releases it. Just something to think about.


----------



## WhywaitDRK

This may have been asked but can anyone tell me how long a 5gl. Tank will stay full without use just sitting expanding and retracting. I assume there is some leakage that takes place is why I ask.


WhyWait DRK Las Vegas Preppers


----------



## hiwall

there should be no leakage and propane never goes bad like gasoline.


----------



## helicopter5472

hiwall said:


> there should be no leakage and propane never goes bad like gasoline.


They also make caps/plugs to close off the threaded area, Also most propane companies have leak detectors, have them check the valve area if you either smell it or are worried. Propane as stated lasts forever or at least your lifetime.


----------



## WhywaitDRK

K good info. Guys I have also heard of the soup and water trick to check leaks. Also how would one safely store tanks around one's personal property.


WhyWait DRK Las Vegas Preppers


----------



## helicopter5472

WhywaitDRK said:


> K good info. Guys I have also heard of the soup and water trick to check leaks. Also how would one safely store tanks around one's personal property.
> 
> WhyWait DRK Las Vegas Preppers


You mean SOAP and water, and yes that works too but takes a little patience if you have a tiny leak. Well I can tell you I like to store mine out in my storage shed where its away from the house and out of the sun. It is not good to store them where there is any flame such as a pilot light in a heater or where you frequently use power tools like a garage. 
Oh yea and even though you may want to use it as a chair by the camp fire, well you know....The AMA says its not an approved method to remove hemorhoids. :laugh:


----------



## WhywaitDRK

Thanks for the tip, and yes I believe I spelt that wrong or the auto correct minion got me.


WhyWait DRK Las Vegas Preppers


----------



## jeff47041

WhywaitDRK said:


> K good info. Guys I have also heard of the soup and water trick to check leaks. Also how would one safely store tanks around one's personal property.
> 
> WhyWait DRK Las Vegas Preppers


And don't store them all in the same area...Hate for you to lose all of your stored up propane because of one accident.


----------



## WhywaitDRK

WhyWait DRK Las Vegas Preppers


----------



## Woody

WhywaitDRK said:


> Thanks for the tip, and yes I believe I spelt that wrong or the auto correct minion got me.
> 
> WhyWait DRK Las Vegas Preppers


Your auto correct actually gives you options or auto corrects the first time? Mine gives me no option or add to dictionary. I have to try a few times to actually get an option!!!! Kind of like what looking it up in the dictionary used to be, (for those young folks, a dictionary is a book that lists words, how they are spelled and the meanings of each one, in alphabetical order), keep substituting letters until you get close enough to find out how it is spelled. My Webster's was dog eared!!!


----------



## TheLazyL

LincTex said:


> Holy Crap!
> 
> For me...
> 2000 gallons x $2.50 (guessing) = $5000 a year, that's *10% of my income!!!*
> 
> I would be looking for ways to conserve energy.... a LOT.
> 
> I think its appalling we spend $2500 a year on _gasoline_.





> I live in Maine, my heat, hot water, and cooking are all propane. I use about 800 gallons a year.... 2000 gallons, maybe the neighbor is secretly tapping in...


Received the contract in the mail yesterday. I was in error. 1,000 gallons a year. Either my memory is going or....what was we talking about?


----------



## LincTex

hiwall said:


> there should be no leakage ...


Agreed, a standard 20lb "BBQ Grill" bottle will hold its propane for decades as long as the valve is good.



hiwall said:


> ...and propane never goes bad like gasoline.


Unless....

http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f2/gasoline-stored-5-years-success-22028/


----------



## BillM

*If I*

If I ever replace the 1000 gal tank, I would replace it with two 500 Gallon tanks, piped in parallel so that I can leave one turned on and the other shut off.

This would allow me to have half in reserve at all times in the event that I have a leak.


----------



## TheLazyL

BillM said:


> If I ever replace the 1000 gal tank, I would replace it with two 500 Gallon tanks, piped in parallel so that I can leave one turned on and the other shut off.
> 
> This would allow me to have half in reserve at all times in the event that I have a leak.


Hmmmm...I like that idea!


----------



## Country Living

BillM said:


> If I ever replace the 1000 gal tank, I would replace it with two 500 Gallon tanks, piped in parallel so that I can leave one turned on and the other shut off.
> 
> This would allow me to have half in reserve at all times in the event that I have a leak.


We did that with our two tanks. They're pigtailed as soon as the tubing goes underground - which is about four feet from the tanks.


----------



## Country Living

I'm wondering if any of you made any changes as a result of the propane shortage this past winter. Did you add an additional tank, go to a larger tank, put in a wood stove, do nothing, etc.?

Even though the shortage did not impact us, we filled both tanks to almost 90% a few weeks ago because I know the situation could turn in a heartbeat. We're fortunate we heat the house with a wood stove and always keep at least current plus two years worth of cut wood on hand.

What did you do or not do? Any tidbits of wisdom you can share with us?


----------



## AdmiralD7S

We pre-buy in the summer, so the shortage didn't affect us...we just rode it out. That being said, I'm trying to run the thermostat at 65 this year. Tried last year, but fiancé wasn't used to it and was struggling, so we ran 68. So far, we appear to be doing fine at 65.


----------



## helicopter5472

I am the same way as AdmiralD7S, I buy during the summer and have a 1000 gal. tank. They love to create shortages to up the price for their profits. Have a friend at one large outfit, says they never had a "real" shortage of propane at there business. Like stocks at the stockmarket, if a rumor starts about something, it effects the prices even if it never materializes.


----------



## hiwall

I had a 250 gallon tank and bought an additional 500 gallon tank this summer. both are now full. I have about a 2 year supply.


----------



## LincTex

Country Living said:


> I'm wondering if any of you made any changes as a result of the propane shortage this past winter. Did you add an additional tank, go to a larger tank, put in a wood stove, do nothing, etc.?


Our primary heat is with wood. I got a screamin' deal on a pair of 100lb tanks, both about half full ($60 for both!) and including what I already have will keep us set for over two years.


----------



## BillS

helicopter5472 said:


> I am the same way as AdmiralD7S, I buy during the summer and have a 1000 gal. tank. They love to create shortages to up the price for their profits. Have a friend at one large outfit, says they never had a "real" shortage of propane at there business. Like stocks at the stockmarket, if a rumor starts about something, it effects the prices even if it never materializes.


Last winter was earlier and colder. Suppliers were running out of propane. There's something called "supply and demand" from Economics 101.


----------



## Meerkat

We hope to buy a couple tanks soon. We rent tanks from supplier now. And fill up our couple grill tanks. If things get so bad that it doesn't turn around in a few weeks I don't see anyone keeping anything long anyway. If the desperados don't get you the feds will.


----------



## hiwall

Pretty hard for anyone to steal a full large propane tank. Now that it is full my 500 gallon likely weighs 3000 lbs or so.


----------



## LincTex

hiwall said:


> Pretty hard for anyone to steal a full large propane tank.


I often worry more about bullet holes, whether stray or intentional (or ANY major leak)


----------



## Tirediron

Around here anyway propane powered vehicles are becoming obsolete, a couple of my friends are in the scrap business, they have to remove the tanks before scrapping these vehicles, I sometimes get tanks with propane left in them, IF these are available in you area, look for tanks with vapor taps, and these could be filled and tarred and buried, should keep forever.


----------



## Tirediron

LincTex said:


> I often worry more about bullet holes, whether stray or intentional (or ANY major leak)


time for a "decorative" berm .


----------



## Country Living

Meerkat said:


> We hope to buy a couple tanks soon. We rent tanks from supplier now. And fill up our couple grill tanks. If things get so bad that it doesn't turn around in a few weeks I don't see anyone keeping anything long anyway. If the desperados don't get you the feds will.


When you buy your tanks you can have an adapter added to at least one of them that will allow you to refill your grill tanks. Just a suggestion in case that would be of interest to you.


----------

