# A shotgun ammo qeustion....?



## catdog6949

I just picked up a folding stock 12 ga. And have a qeustion about ammo size? OO buck is that larger than #1 buck??? My state requires #1 or larger buck too hunt Bear and Deer with.
I am setting this up as both a home defense, that's why the folding stock w/ pistol grip.

Slug's too hunt Elk. Also what would be a good scope or aiming system too install on this?

Cat and Sleepy Turtle in Seattle


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## PurpleHeartJarhead

catdog6949 said:


> I just picked up a folding stock 12 ga. And have a qeustion about ammo size? OO buck is that larger than #1 buck??? My state requires #1 or larger buck too hunt Bear and Deer with.
> I am setting this up as both a home defense, that's why the folding stock w/ pistol grip.
> 
> Slug's too hunt Elk. Also what would be a good scope or aiming system too install on this?
> 
> Cat and Sleepy Turtle in Seattle


00 Buck is bigger (.33 cal) than #1 buck (.30 cal).

As for the scope, can you give details, model, brand of shotgun, barrel length, etc?


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## catdog6949

*Thank's.......*

Its short barrel, shoots slugs and shot, no choke, they said, it says Mossberg, has a synthetic aftermarket pistolgrip folding stock with butt pad. Has a very simple sight area and bead front sight.

I plan on getting bright orange paint, and lining the "U" shape at the rear and painting the front bead? What I intend too use this for is Survival/home defense and some hunting.
I only own 3 guns a .22 and a .357 revolver, and now this Shotgun.

In this state in the Mountains is loaded with Deer, Bear, and Elk. The Law is #1 buck or bigger for deer and bear, Elk you have too use slugs.

In the past I had a Rifle with a scope, but I can get real close too the Deer and Elk here, so decided to go with the Shotgun.

I would like a "Simple" scope or Aiming device that's reasonable in price? I work with a budget!

Cat and Sleepy Turtle


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## CrackbottomLouis

I have never put a scope on a shotgun. I dont believe one is needed. Even a slug at shotgun ranges is etremely easy with just iron sights. For home defense just use birdshot. At home hallway distances that will be fine and not go through walls enough to endanger family. If you have concerns about birdshot doing the trick get a pork butt and some ribs then wrap in denim, pace out the longest hall way and hang package at that distance, shoot package and look at damage. For home defense I would consider a surefire light (at least 200 lumens).


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## Caribou

What CBL said. For working in the dark where seeing any sight is a challenge a laser is an excellent choice. Here is one option though there are others on the market that cost less.

http://www.laserlyte.com/products/sight-cm-dual-lens-black


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## ARDon

My home defence shotgun is a Steven mod. 320 Tactical 12ga., I used the Federal Power-Shok 2 3/4" )) Buck (9 pellets) & Winchester rifled slugs 1oz 3". Its all about big leaky holes. As of accessories, just a good set of iron sights & a good tactical flash light & a shot shell holder. A shot gun is designed as a point & shoot firearm. 

As a owner of a business in the firearm industry gunsmith, custom modifications along with custom gun finishes not all shotguns nor all 00 buck patterns the same. Even though most will have a cylinder bore, patterning your shotgun on a pattern board is a must to see how well your buck shot patterns. I find that in "my" case Rio 00 Buck has to be the worst, were Federal Power Shok 00 Buck pattern the best for my Steven 320. Your want to have a pattern that is good & consistent. I start off at 30 yards with a sheet of construction paper 40" by 40" with a 18" circle with a 2" dot in the center and work back 10 yards increments taking 1" masking tape and covering the holes each time until I hit 50 yards. This way I can found out what my max yards is while still holding a fairly good pattern.

Another is mechanics of the shotgun, the interior of the receiver, de-buring & polishing the action for a smooth cycle. Trigger job to a respectable 4lbs. Barrel work, I like forcing cone lengthening, is the area in a shotgun barrel just in front of the chamber that directs the shot load into the bore. When lengthening the forcing cone and polishing to a mirror finish velocity is increased by reducing the sudden friction encountered with a short forcing cone. Felt recoil is reduced because the reduced friction allows the shot load to smoothly enter the shotgun bore. Any modifications done is always a increased advantage.


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## hiwall

Like said above I would nix the idea of a scope. Here is a good reason why..............


> I can get real close too the Deer and Elk here


As far as defense IN the home your choice of loads would actually have little difference (at 10 to 20 feet birdshot or buckshot will act about the same). As far as for big game hunting if you check the accuracy of slugs and find what distance you can ALWAYS put them in a paper plate then use slugs and keep your shots to that distance or closer.


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## IlliniWarrior

slugs aren't only for hunting ... you need to be EXTREMELY careful of your background with them .... but you'll find them almost indispensable when dealing with vehicles .... a sabot can just about go thru a car lengthwise ....


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## Magus

Ever see any of those cast bronze slugs they use for big game defense in Africa?
they can [and do] drop Rhino and water buffalo all the time.


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## Sentry18

Optics and boom sticks go together like peanut butter and jelly!

I use reduced recoil No. 4 Buck for indoors and 00 Buck with flight control wad for outdoor use.


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## Caribou

Sentry18 said:


> Optics and boom sticks go together like peanut butter and jelly!
> 
> I use reduced recoil No. 4 Buck for indoors and 00 Buck with flight control wad for outdoor use.


What type of optic are you suggesting?


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## Sentry18

Simple compact red dot. Shotgun recoil is pretty stout for an optic so I prefer the Aimpoint T1 Micro or Trijicon RMR, but they cost a lot more than your average shotty. Primary Arms has a nice clone on sale for $49 (don't let the price fool you). They are surprisingly durable and well made, but you will likely break them on a shotgun eventually. I also really like the ghost ring sighting system for the Mossberg 500/590 series. In my world 870's get red dots and Mossy's get Ghost Rings. However it may be cheaper to just buy a replacement barrel with rifle sights. Another option is Dead Ring sights. Check them out below. I should also point out that all of my pump or auto shotguns, most of which are SBS, are designed for home defense.

https://deadringerhunting.com


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## Dakine

Cat and Turtle, depending on what you're hunting you might want to keep in mind that shotgun shell terminology can be confusing or even somewhat misleading because traditionally with firearms the bigger the number the bigger the bore or bullet, but that's not so with shotguns.

When Sentry talks about #4 buckshot, he's talking buckshot not #4 birdshot. The #4 birdshot is what you'll commonly find at Walmart and it's for Turkeys and other stout critters. The buckshot makes a distinctly different impact on the target, if you go to about 2:45 into this video, he is shooting #4 birdshot and then #4 buckshot onto a steel plate and the difference is very clear at that point.


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## catdog6949

*Your Responses.....*

We appreciate your, responses and input! And yes that was a great video, very informative. I'll look into the optics you suggested. There are screws on top of the reciever, I would assume that's too mount optics?

Yes when I said a scope I meant something like the Aim point, because I do a lot of camping in the Cascade's dense rain forest. Thanks all who responded, I have a couple of qeustions are there after market rear "iron" sight's? Also the shotgun cover shown in the one pic, where did you find that?

My "Comander" frame pack has a pocket and straps too hold the shot gun on the outside of the hunting pack! As I said I have a folding stock w/ pistol grip so its pretty short.

Cat and Sleepy Turtle in Seattle


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## Dakine

catdog6949 said:


> We appreciate your, responses and input! And yes that was a great video, very informative. I'll look into the optics you suggested. There are screws on top of the reciever, I would assume that's too mount optics?


Those screw holes are most likely for mounting a rail, picatinny rails get mounted to the weapon and then they allow for a standardized universal mount. Many optics and accessories will attach directly to the rail, some still require rings that hold the optics, and the rings mount directly to the rail.

That's not 100% always the case, there are optics that are made with a specific firearm in mind, and they can mount directly to it, that's fine but it's becoming increasingly rare to find that at least in my personal experience.

As with any accessory or part, read the reviews, I get so much good info from buyers comments.

For example:

WOOHOO! arrived today and this thing is badass! I can't wait to mount it and get me some huge bucks next year, FIVE STARS ALL THE WAY!!!

BOOM! instant ignore. You'd be amazed at how many people give a great or crappy review and in their own review they clearly say they haven't even mounted it yet!!!! how in the world would they even know then????

A good review might be something like:

I mounted this on my <insert brand/model> and all the pieces fit perfectly, the fit and finish was high quality. I tested this with x# of rounds and it held zero, the clarity was maybe 8/10 but the light coming in really made up for it.

Anyway... especially on gun parts I'm looking for someone that tried it, shot with it and what their real world experience was, not how shiny and cool it looked in the box  Oh and if they had to contact customer service, what was their experience like there? that's important to me too. There are a lot of brands, where if you bought their product they are going to move mountains if they can to get you out shooting and enjoying their product! I've had good luck with them and hear mostly about the wins other people have calling in with some weird gotcha problem they encountered.

One of the problems with those brands is that because of the general high quality of their gear, they are a little proud of it (you get what you pay for) GG&G, Magpul, Troy, NightForce, Leupold, LaRue, there's many many superb quality brands, those are just a few off the top of my head.

Oh, and one other thing I'll do, price check!!! I want a specific brand or a specific type of part, I'll check MidwayUSA, Brownells, Natchez shootersupply, MidSouth Shooter Supply, Cabelas and even Amazon and eBay.

Those are online, but whenever possible I will do business with brick and mortar shoppes in my area. There's several shops with highly knowledgeable staff around me, and if you establish a good relationship with them, they'll do everything they can to keep your business (of all the LGS, there's only one that I will ONLY go to if I have to have something today and nobody else has it).

In my opinion the online guys are really convenient, but it's the local guys that I will always deal with when I can... they are the one's that keep the sport and enthusiasm alive, they are just as much and more so involved with skin in the game than some warehouse 1000 miles away; especially in a 2A unfriendly state like California. If online is 25 dollars, and these guys are 28 or 30, I dont care, I pay it. That their store is open and doing business is a huge finger in the eye of the anti 2A movement, and if I can help them out, I'm all for it!


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## HardCider

With a setup like yours, I think you will found a big foster style slug flies better out of a short, non rifled barrel than any sabot style slug. I have a cantilever scoped 870 with a rifled barrel that shoots Lightfield slugs well enough to hit a soda can at a 100-150 yards every time. My short barreled Marine Mag 870 smooth bore shoots a foster style Winchester slug best and is deadly at fifty yards or less. The vast majority of deer I have killed have been inside 30 yards. If your shooting big game, go with a slug. With an open choke you will be disappointed with the buckshot on deer and bear unless you are right on top of them and your blood trail may be poor on heavy coated bears.


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## ARDon

HardCider said:


> With a setup like yours, I think you will found a big foster style slug flies better out of a short, non rifled barrel than any sabot style slug. I have a cantilever scoped 870 with a rifled barrel that shoots Lightfield slugs well enough to hit a soda can at a 100-150 yards every time. My short barreled Marine Mag 870 smooth bore shoots a foster style Winchester slug best and is deadly at fifty yards or less. The vast majority of deer I have killed have been inside 30 yards. If your shooting big game, go with a slug. With an open choke you will be disappointed with the buckshot on deer and bear unless you are right on top of them and your blood trail may be poor on heavy coated bears.


Your so correct HardCider, would be wise to use a rifled slug out of a smooth bore shotgun. Shooting a sabot slug out of a smoothbore the sleeves aren't likely to release efficiently. This means very poor flight characteristics and greatly reduces your range & accuracy for the slug. Where rifled slugs and full-bore slugs for smoothbores can be virtually as accurate, and hit as hard if not harder, as sabot slugs from rifled barrels from ranges of 75 to 100 yards.

I hunt & shoot a Rossi Slug gun and it like the Lightfields 2 3/4 lights.


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## Magus

Caribou said:


> What type of optic are you suggesting?


Nice title2 man! Have you tried the Mossberg style or tac star forends/grips?
they make for great control on abbreviated pumps!

I put a Weaver red dot on mine something like 25 years ago, its been there ever since,
I would replace it with a newer, more stream lined scope, but there's no batteries to
go dead.Its useless in low light though.


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## Sentry18

I have recently converted two of my shotties over to railed forends with stubby foregrips. I like the control and the speed but not the extra bulk.


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## catdog6949

*Sentry18.....*

A qeustion about your "shot gun " cover, where can I get one of those? My Hunting frame pack will hold our shot gun inside, but that's hard too remove with other stuff packed around it. It also has a rifle shotgun sleeve whith compression straps and a butt stock bag.

But that leaves it out in the open! For all too see, with a cover like you show in the pic, it would be out of site!

Cat and Sleepy Turtle in Seattle


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## Magus

I made mine out of bull hide, not as cool as his, but fun and useful anyway.


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## hiwall

> shot gun " cover, where can I get one of those


here's one for $24
http://www.ebay.com/itm/30-34-Black...409?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19ed94bd69


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## Sentry18

Have a couple by Explorer and one by Condor. But the best bang for the buck right now is the Voodoo Tactical shotgun scabbard, they run around 25 bucks and come in black, OD green, FDE and camo.


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## Caribou

Magus said:


> I made mine out of bull hide, not as cool as his, but fun and useful anyway.


Picture?:wave:


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## mojo4

I would definitely look at the ghost ring and fiber optic front sight. Most scopes or holographic sights will cost way more than your gun and it sounds like saving money is important. Another possibility is to find a longer barrel for hunting. The barrels are easy to swap out and a short barrel for home and long for hunting works well. I would go for slugs for all big game hunting and I like #4 buckshot for home.


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## catdog6949

*Thank's all.....*

For all Your Informative responses! Thank's Sentry 18 for the Scabbard Idea's. And all the others. Yes "Cost" is Important! We have biult Our Prep's a piece at a time, mostly on "Sale" which take's a Lot of Time.

The bag I bought for Camping and going too the woods, backpacking is also the BOB/EWLS bag, it has a holder on the Side to hold the shotgun/rifle, but as I said before this Leave's the Firearm in view. And if I place it in side the bag, which is okay hiking into the woods, when things are ok, if you had too, "Get it Out Quickly", that would not work!

So I'll check out those Scabbards!

Cat and Sleepy Turtle in Seattle :wave:


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## Magus

Caribou said:


> Picture?:wave:


Would you believe I've misplaced the shotgun?!
As you can see, its had a rough life.LOL


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## Dakine

Magus said:


> Would you believe I've misplaced the shotgun?!
> As you can see, its had a rough life.LOL


Does Rex have your shotgun?


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## Magus

Who's Rex?


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## catdog6949

*Magus......*

Thank's for sharing 

Cat and Sleepy Turtle in Seattle


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## BillM

*A shotgun*

The 12 gage shotgun is the all around ultimate survival tool.

You can hunt anything with it.

The ammunition is cheap and versatile.

You can even hand load the shells provided you have a good supply of primers.

You can use black powder and match heads as primers to reload shells.

Here is a depression trick to turn a round of bird shot into a slug that will fell a Grizzly Bear.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3M46XVfVOU


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## Dakine

Magus said:


> Who's Rex?


The best **** dog ever!


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## TheLazyL

catdog6949 said:


> I just picked up a folding stock 12 ga. And have a qeustion about ammo size? OO buck is that larger than #1 buck??? My state requires #1 or larger buck too hunt Bear and Deer with.
> I am setting this up as both a home defense, that's why the folding stock w/ pistol grip.
> 
> Slug's too hunt Elk. Also what would be a good scope or aiming system too install on this?
> 
> Cat and Sleepy Turtle in Seattle


From your questions it appears you are be a firearm novice. I would strongly suggest you use only the iron sights until you can hit what you are aiming at. Once you are proficient with the iron sights then and only then add a red dot.

My suggestion could save you from having a terrible day when the red dot fails.


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## Magus

Dakine said:


> The best **** dog ever!


For some reason I thought you meant Max, as in Mad max.looks like 
his shotgun.


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## catdog6949

*LazyL.......*

Well actauly I am not a Novice, I have hunted all my life(I was also in the Army) but now that I am older gal 56 I decided too get a shot gun to hunt with, just didn't understand the wording about the term #1 buck or larger now I do!

My state has a lot of very confusing hunting laws..... I bought slug's and 00 buck, besides bird/ and target. This will also be my survival/defense ie. Folding stock and pistol grip.

Most of my life I hunted with a Handgun , and an .30-.30 with scope, but as I have gotten older and hunt mostly in forest, I decided the 12ga. Would be a good all around weapon for me so that's why I switched.

Cat and Sleepy Turtle in Seattle


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## HardCider

A great choice and probably just about the most adaptable tool in the cabinet. Just by changing shells you could effectively take anything from a tiny dove to a giant moose. You could breach a door or clear the room, fire a signal flare or a non lethal beanbag. And if you don't get too tacti-cool, you wouldn't raise an eyebrow in most places.


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## nightwing

Any way you figure it and you cannot cheat is to fire your shotgun with the loads you can get.
once you as one of the replies stated "pattern your gun" this saying is not as simple as it sounds as it also shows the relation of your sight picture to the point of impact.
Sounds crazy but different brands will shoot wildly different in my experience.
faster hits lower slower strikes higher and if you have 10 different boxes of 
brands your all over the place.
and is the pattern consistent in the same brand?

I personally shoot BB's and larger only I either want a clean kill or knockdown 
on even little birdies.
Sand shot wounds some birds and if they are not found 
that bugs me I do not like waste.

find a good load and or brand and stick with it that in itself will make you a better 
marksman than any other information I could pass on and that goes for any firearm.
target loads are for people who have bought a weapon that is more than 
they can handle we all have to grow into a weapon not so much adapt the load
to suite us I will explain if you have target loads and forget or go for a walk 
and not put in your super duper sho' nuf elephant killers a hog is going to eat you
or whatever your defending yourself against.
some test have shown that what is consider a low powered load will NOT penetrate
heavy or layered clothing.
Add in the fact that a human body is mostly water and organs move and there are not many rounds that can insure a one shot stop and not be a threat to yourself 
or others if you have a accidental discharge (AD).
A wound is not only in the hole it is also burst vessels and arteries surrounding 
the strike zone and that is why people die if you could just plug the hole 
hardly anyone would die.

as far as a point and shoot well that depends on how scared or how much you can 
focus under life and death situations I have seen people shoot a hole in their own 
butt holster and floors ceilings and a stop sign a block away and the Nimrod
they were trying to hit they could have just as well slapped them down.

A firearm is not a magic wand just racking the slide only lets them know your armed and if your silhouetted you get shot first not a good outcome.
If it is at all possible for the family to be safe do not hunt for them even in your own home let them come to you for this to work like a fire escape plan everyone has to know their position and duty even if that is hiding in a closet sucking the carpet, otherwise collateral damage may be the outcome.
have a plan practice your plan and have a backup.
Children have a habit of getting drama bound screaming running and they need to know it may put them and other in jeopardy for no reason.

I have been present at many a shooting qualification and can say without fear of 
being wrong that some people cannot point shoot anything naturally they could 
miss the target with a full size car.

It is a long subject and if folks do some research you will find a few points
first the closer to 1,000 feet per second I would guess that 800 the least 
your bullet / projectile or load of shot or slug will do what it is intended.
Faster is not always better if a bullet penetrates deep enough and stays or 
expends all it's energy into the target the better.
Expanding bullets do not come open as they hit as it encounter resistance it 
opens up or deforms if that is as it is leaving through a shoulder blade 
then the wound could be superficial ( depends on which side going in or coming out) .

Want to hear a funny story an uncle jumped into the middle of a battle in WWII
he was 
shot like 17 times if I remember correctly from his foot across his body to his 
shoulder by a ground soldier with a 9MM machine gun he not only lived but after he hit the ground he sat up and shot the man who shot him and killed him with a 45 
he lived until he drank himself to death about 8 years later.

NO arm or shell is an absolute factor it is the brain between your ears.
most times people do not stand still and your rights if you get chasing them diminish in some areas inside only in other your property line know your limits. 
a person who has been shot is a wounded animal and either can kill you.
Deer have got up and injured or killed hunters after being shot with a rifle.
a finishing shot for animals unless your knowledgeable or real sure they are dead.
For people call the police and the coroner can pronounce them you keep yourself and family back.
do not get distracted keep them in sight folks get shot not paying attention
the bad guy runs up and across your peripheral vision and your all done.
the same wall your worried shooting through about they are not if your arm will not penetrate you have a very expensive confetti thrower, in bad times in normal 
times you need to figure out just exactly what you need and know it as fact.

I wish things were simpler but not so brethren. 
A lot of states and clubs magazine ads have legal groups that will defend you 
if your involved in a shooting research them and pick one, as most lawyers
want your house and car as collateral to defend you the law is not on your side.

I get calls and have to email and do other things so pardon me if my post gets 
jumbled or sidetracks a bit or a lot.

It is almost impossible to test in real world as ranges have enough rules to make the EPA blush.

here are a few sites to get a feeling for what to expect from your ammo or arm

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/

http://www.myscienceproject.org/shooting.html

http://ammocollector.blogspot.com/2012/12/shotgun-shell-shot-size-comparison-chart.html


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## besign

if such critters "drop" to any shot, i'ts because the spine or the brain were hit. there's nothng about body hits, (no, not even heart hits) that is physically incapicitating. Jeff Cooper, Elmer keith, Jim Carmichael, and many others have writtern about 458's and the like failing to stop much smaller animals, and failing a LOT on big bears, zebra, even wart hog. Don't kid yourself. Even men have not been stopped by 00 blasts, centered on the chest, at 10 ft, and slugs have failed, also. it's rare, 1-2 in 100 chest hits, (half of torso is the gut, reemember) and often, many pellets either completely miss or only hit limbs.


'the big problem, with any longarm for defense, is the odds are very high that you won't HAVE it when you need a gun. the pistol need never be more than one second away from being fired (if you are fast) 1/2 second if it's openly worn.


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## catdog6949

*Well, I appreciate everyone's input......*

Before now, I've Hunted with Mostly a .44 mag. "Super Blackhawk", for Deer and Bear, and for, "Elk", I've used a .30-.30 Lever Action. With these, I've had good Hunting Trip's! I decided too change too the Shotgun, because, I practiced, shooting wit a Friend's and Noticed at the Range's I hunt at, it just gave me more confidence!

So I sold the .30-.30 and bought the Mossberg! Yes I took it out and fired 30 shell's through it 10 rnds bird#7, 10 rnds turkey loads, they all hit the target! Then tried 5, 00 Buck's and 5, Slug's into the Targets, I did not miss with any Shoulder fired Shot's. (My Shoulder Now Hurt's!!!)

Out of the 30 shot's, I experimented with the stock Folded, My Sock fold's too the side and has a "Padded" buttstock. I hit all shot's except 1 Slug! Anyhow this is Going too work well for us!

Cat and Sleepy Turtle in Seattle(for Now)


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## nightwing

catdog6949 said:


> Before now, I've Hunted with Mostly a .44 mag. "Super Blackhawk", for Deer and Bear, and for, "Elk", I've used a .30-.30 Lever Action. With these, I've had good Hunting Trip's! I decided too change too the Shotgun, because, I practiced, shooting wit a Friend's and Noticed at the Range's I hunt at, it just gave me more confidence!
> 
> So I sold the .30-.30 and bought the Mossberg! Yes I took it out and fired 30 shell's through it 10 rnds bird#7, 10 rnds turkey loads, they all hit the target! Then tried 5, 00 Buck's and 5, Slug's into the Targets, I did not miss with any Shoulder fired Shot's. (My Shoulder Now Hurt's!!!)
> 
> Out of the 30 shot's, I experimented with the stock Folded, My Sock fold's too the side and has a "Padded" buttstock. I hit all shot's except 1 Slug! Anyhow this is Going too work well for us!
> 
> Cat and Sleepy Turtle in Seattle(for Now)


Rugers are fine pistols the brass should last for re-loading purposes 
order up some reloading components for the shotgun and save your hulls


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## headhunter

Our state is divided, the soutern part is shotgun for deer and the northern is rifle. I've come to respect the shotgun as never before. I've the 870 Wingmaster , camtilevered scope mount, and fully rifled. It has a Leupold VariX II 2X7 . It keeps the Remington copper solids sabots into about 2 1/2 inches at 100 yds. It is my understanding that they now make the detachable barrel lock in the same position with a screw for even more acciracy. I have also use my 1100 with an improved cyl . choke with various standard slugs and it would hold 3" at 75 yards. I've been tempted to leave my .270 home when I go back home up north to hunt. The short barreled 870 with the copper solids is awesome.
Many years ago one of our national sporting magazines had an article about a mountain man who did everything with only two guns. One was a pump shotgun which be always kept loaded with number 6 shot (even for bear protection at extremely close range the pellets don't spread too much) and a Colt Woodsman .22 that was his "meat" gun, even for sheep. The reason I'm bringing it up is a man can only carry a certain amount of hardware and I think your choice of a 12 is a good one.


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## Geek999

A shotgun is only going to be accurate for a very limited distance, so you're not going to want a scope because you don't need the magnification. Depending on what you have in the way of sights at present you may want some sort of upgrade to the sights, but no magnification.


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## hiwall

That is the big advantage with a cantilevered scope mount as it is really just attached to the slug barrel and in seconds you could switch to a standard barrel. I still don't like shotguns though


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