# Cell towers after an event



## pawpaw

I was reading a local article from here in Florida's panhandle about local cell service slow-downs & even disconnects.
It seems that the annual spring break deluge in Panama City this year has cell tower capacities maxed out. Those kids ARE about tweets & f-book, ain't they?
It just got me to thinking: the same thing happened on 9/11, Katrina, and other regional emergencies, didn't it? But spring break? My guess is that after a NATIONAL event, it's game over.
I see many posts about how you can keep your electronics charged after an emergency, but now I wonder if these systems have even kept pace with increased customer loads, etc. Just sayin'....


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## forluvofsmoke

There has been pretty sketchy service in my area for a few weeks already. Customer use has been high and both major providers have proven to be not very reliable. In SHTF scenario there won't be wireless, even mobile to mobile, unless the site has back-up power.


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## Tweto

Don't count on your cell phones when SHTF happens. Once they lose power they will stop working. Some cell sites do have emergency power, but emergency power will only operate for so long. Land line phones do have emergency battery back up for 4 hours. I would think that satelite phones should work but I'm unsure about this.


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## CdnMtlHd

Tweto said:


> Don't count on your cell phones when SHTF happens. Once they lose power they will stop working. Some cell sites do have emergency power, but emergency power will only operate for so long. Land line phones do have emergency battery back up for 4 hours. I would think that satelite phones should work but I'm unsure about this.


I believe that the connection to the satellite will continue to work just fine, it will be the ground-tether that links the satellite in the sky with regular phones on the ground that could be severed.

I think that the only system of communication that will continue to work after all hell breaks loose will be pen-n-paper or personal radio systems like FRS, CB radio and Ham and I am not too sure on the Ham system because I believe that they are tied to the grid (power) for the repeaters, but, someone can correct me on that.


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## Fn/Form

CdnMtlHd said:


> I believe that the connection to the satellite will continue to work just fine, it will be the ground-tether that links the satellite in the sky with regular phones on the ground that could be severed.
> 
> I think that the only system of communication that will continue to work after all hell breaks loose will be pen-n-paper or personal radio systems like FRS, CB radio and Ham and I am not too sure on the Ham system because I believe that they are tied to the grid (power) for the repeaters, but, someone can correct me on that.


Ham radio can be repeater-based (generally frequencies 50MHz and up) or point to point (any frequency). The radios that work on repeaters will also work point to point, but they'll need one or more of the following: more power, better antenna, better position. You'll also have to coordinate a calling frequency where you meet in case anything happens. For example, the national amateur radio 2 meter band calling frequency is 146.52MHz.

Remember that texts usually get through when voice calls can't be made due to busy towers. Many people forget this and miss out. If you can get a signal, try texting.

Also, most urban cell towers are linked via fiber optic cable or microwave repeaters. And they depend heavily on GPS timing signals.


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## FrankW

paw paw and others.

its been well established that cell phone service will be essentially completly off line during any major event due to overload.
All response organisations are operating on that principle.

remember its a commercial system that needs to make money and will always operate just-enough capacity for normal operations.

This is why responders are usually required to operate a landline in addition to just a cellphone, because those are much more robust.


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## FrankW

PS: yes actual satellite phone will still work.


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## pawpaw

BlueZ said:


> PS: yes actual satellite phone will still work.


Yes, but- wasn't shutting down (disabling) civilian comms the order of the day for the gubbermints of Egypt, Libya, & others during unrest?


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## JoKing

Everybody had to get cable, a converter box, or a new T.V. so that emergency services could use the analog signals. 

Question: Are there channels reserved for civilian use during the main event?

Also: Are digital T.V.s still going get FM reception as they evolve?


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## Fn/Form

JoKing said:


> Everybody had to get cable, a converter box, or a new T.V. so that emergency services could use the analog signals.
> 
> Question: Are there channels reserved for civilian use during the main event?
> 
> Also: Are digital T.V.s still going get FM reception as they evolve?


As I understand, the switchover to digital television did a lot of things. It used less bandwidth, it has higher quality and farther-reaching quality with less power and it also facilitates emergency communication by TV.

The design for public safety primary bands are well outside of TV frequencies. And they're digital, not analog. The original public safety digital systems pushed out analog cell phones in the 800MHz band, and now they are moving into the 700MHz band nationwide. That's why cities are having to move to 700MHz.


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## JoKing

Wow. I've got some reading up to do. I'm too embarrassed to even hint about the way I thought it work. 
Thanks (I think)


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## musketjim

I try to have multiple modes of comm. Cell phone with texting, FRS, marine band and CB running off 12V. I would like to upgrade to Ham but I have other priorities to take care of at the moment.


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## fedorthedog

I dont know about cell phones but in 89 after the SF quake I could not call home for three hours due to overloaded circuit's.


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## Fn/Form

JoKing said:


> Wow. I've got some reading up to do. I'm too embarrassed to even hint about the way I thought it work.
> Thanks (I think)


No worries. We are all here to learn.

A lot of the Spanish-speaking stations around here still have analog signals; but they are low power, and they'll eventually have to go digital.

There are still a lot of rural emergency services that still use analog. Also some metro ambulance-->hospital comms. Some of their frequencies are near the old TV frequencies. A lot of fed dollars are being spent on updating everyone to digital AND the new frequencies. Texas has been working on a statewide digital system for some time.

When I worked a hurricane response there were several law enforcement volunteer groups turned away because their radios didn't work on the affected area radio systems. One "sister city" actually showed up with frequency-agile radios and radio techs to program them. Now THAT'S professionalism!


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## Jason

We have a cell tower on our farm that's owned by a communications company that starts with V but has multiple carriers on it. The tower has been here since 1994 and has a backup generator that is run one day per month as a test. It's a diesel generator but I have no idea how much fuel is stored there. I get really good cell reception here.


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## ms_a2gwus

pawpaw said:


> Yes, but- wasn't shutting down (disabling) civilian comms the order of the day for the gubbermints of Egypt, Libya, & others during unrest?


I think you're right on that, pawpaw, it would make sense to disrupt the communications quickly to keep the rebellious ones from coordinating their activities and from alerting others that the gov't was coming in to round up people/take weapons/shoot to kill... and ask questions later. :scratch


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## SouthernComfort

Where exactly is this diesel generator and fuel supply? LOL


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## kappydell

pawpaw said:


> I was reading a local article from here in Florida's panhandle about local cell service slow-downs & even disconnects.
> It seems that the annual spring break deluge in Panama City this year has cell tower capacities maxed out. Those kids ARE about tweets & f-book, ain't they?
> It just got me to thinking: the same thing happened on 9/11, Katrina, and other regional emergencies, didn't it? But spring break? My guess is that after a NATIONAL event, it's game over.
> I see many posts about how you can keep your electronics charged after an emergency, but now I wonder if these systems have even kept pace with increased customer loads, etc. Just sayin'....


That is why some preppers keep stamped (with forever stamps) post cards in their kits. Coms might fail, but in other disaster situations the mail always got thru anyway. I think it would probably be more quickly restored than electronic systems even if it got slowed a bit.


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## pawpaw

*FCC taking input from citizens*

Well, I'm the one that started this thread. In it, I queried wether gubbermints would shut down comm's during an "emergency", as in Egypt, Libya, etc.
Well, I just read a Fox News.com article about the city of San Francisco doing just that during a perceived "emergency", i.e; a planned protest on their transit system.
The FCC is now looking into wether local governments have the right to do that, and what criteria should be used, and they're accepting public input on the matter.
I don't know how to post a link, but I recommend you get a look-see for yourself. It's under Latest News. I firmly believe that Gov'ts will do as they see fit, regardless of existing guidelines, then say "So Sue Me." Just sayin'....


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## Jason

Pawpaw, just go to the website you want to link to, right click on the address in the top of your screen, when the little menu pops up, hit copy, then come back to prepared society. When you get to the post where you want to add the link, right click in the post, click on paste, and you're done. It should automatically turn blue and people will be able to click on it.


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## mosquitomountainman

HAM radio is the way to go. Much better range than any other radio. Our 65 watt base easily reaches 70 miles or more without a repeater. Most of the repeaters I know of have solar or wind power but then all of them around here are located on top of mountains where there is no grid power. In any case, most HAM operators are prepper minded and have drills to simulate emergency communications. The FCC encourages HAM operators to become involved.

Even if you don't have a HAM radio or license get a scanner. You can listen in on police and fire channels for up to the minute info from the people who are on site. Scanners are under $100.00 and you don't need a license just to listen.

CB and FRS/GMRS are for local comms only. There are so few channels that a scanner will pick up your frequency in the time it takes to push and release the talk button. If you use CB's see if you can find someone to tweak the power up a bit. They're limited by law to 5 watts transmit power (I think??). If you get someone to power it up a bit they'll reach a lot farther. (Of course your neighbors might hear interference on their television which makes them a bit irate.) It's illegal to broadcast on the higher watts but if TSHT who cares!

FRS/GMRS radios aren't much better than toys. They're pretty much line of sight which means that if there's termite mound, a tree, or the nighbor's cow between you, you won't be able to get through. We use ours for comms around the property only. They're so easy to block it isn't funny. Many have built in scanners and once they have your channel they just need to tape the transmit button down and you're locked out.

Cell phones are a joke during a widespread crisis. The towers are overloaded immediately. Land lines may not be much better.


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## ms_a2gwus

pawpaw, was this the one you were talking about?

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012...n-jamming-publics-cellphones/?test=latestnews


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## mattheb24

Cell towers do have limited capacity, it is really a shell game as far as bandwidth goes. You hope not everyone wants to look under all the shells at the same time.

As for natural disasters, Katrina was a different issue all together. A lot of cell sites were still up but a lot of the telco central offices were damaged or destroyed. It would be like your cordless phone being unplugged from the jack, you came page it but the call has no where to go.

The same thing happened across large portions of South Florida after Wilma. The issue then were fiber optic interface boxes out in the flied. They had enough battery back for let us say 12 hours, but after that the lights went out.

Technology is great but it does have it's draw backs. Fiber optics allows much greater capacity and bandwidth to be deployed out in the communities. But unlike the old copper pair requires power at the box.


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## dataman19

mattheb24 said:


> Cell towers do have limited capacity, it is really a shell game as far as bandwidth goes. You hope not everyone wants to look under all the shells at the same time.
> 
> As for natural disasters, Katrina was a different issue all together. A lot of cell sites were still up but a lot of the telco central offices were damaged or destroyed. It would be like your cordless phone being unplugged from the jack, you came page it but the call has no where to go.
> 
> The same thing happened across large portions of South Florida after Wilma. The issue then were fiber optic interface boxes out in the flied. They had enough battery back for let us say 12 hours, but after that the lights went out.
> 
> Technology is great but it does have it's draw backs. Fiber optics allows much greater capacity and bandwidth to be deployed out in the communities. But unlike the old copper pair requires power at the box.


...
How true...
Incidentally in the 90's FEMA came up with a "brilliant Plan" (or at least "they" thought it was brilliant). Verizon posed a proposal whereby they would "guarantee" Cell services to "select phones" in a national crisis situation. The term "select phones" has always bothered me, but alas "I had three of those "select Phones", so I was happy). A controlled test was done in Middle Tennessee. Success rate was a whopping 7%, (it was actually around 18% initially, but dropped to 7% when the Verizon Network was voluntarily reduced in capacity as a prerequisite for the test). They did it by slecetively blocking zones in the MTSO region under test. For those not familiar with Cell Phone Tech Speak: The MTSO is the cell phone equivalent of a main Central Office (the telephone Central Office). One MTSO can control as many as twenty cell phone tower sites (these are interconnected by Microwave - those microwave dishes you see on may cell phone towers). Cell phone towers can also be interconnected with their MTSO via a Virtual Private link that uses the "public internet". The public internet option is a bad idea from the get go - if the public internet fails, the MTSO region fails as well.
...
Anyway, the live test was carried out long before Katrina. It was almost undetectable because people in the test zones just got a lot of "no signal" or "no service" indicators on "their" cell phones (no concern there, it's normal). But the test proved and highlighted the vulnerability of the cell phone network. Did you know that there is one transmit/receive frequency group for every 38 cell phone subscribers?. The public "wired" telephone network has a ration of only 9:1 (or three times as much capacity).
..
No cell phones are not a good idea for SHTF.
..
SATCOM - get real. As a former Program Manager for Hammer Rick (the UHF Handheld hemisphere communications handsets) SATCOM is a very vulnerable communications link. All a SATCOM link needs is one bozo with a "high powered" booster to hit the Satellite, effectively shadowing it and blanking it out (don't believe it? Why do you think there is a signal limitation to uplink to a satellite? Because too high a signal will result in what is known as blanking - effectively blocking uplink and downlinks. This is more commonly attributed to FM Capture effect. The strongest signal will be locked in first. But with SATCOM, the strongest Signal will not only be locked onto first, it will result in all the adjacent transponders locking into the rogue signal.
...
24+ years of government service, and a ton of mobile SATCOM and Mobile Microwave, and UHF/VHF/Microwave experience has taught me one valuable lesson. There is always a way. Always a way to interrupt or disrupt high tech gear.
..
Cell Phones and SATCOM Phones are at the bottom of my survivable Comms List (in fact they don't even rate the bottom of the list).
...
Dave
Phoenix, AZ


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## pawpaw

Dataman,
I know that you're not advocating the 'two cans and a string' method, but with your obvious knowledge of systems, what WOULD you suggest as far as local communications?


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## pawpaw

mosquitomountainman said:


> HAM radio is the way to go. Much better range than any other radio. Our 65 watt base easily reaches 70 miles or more without a repeater. Most of the repeaters I know of have solar or wind power but then all of them around here are located on top of mountains where there is no grid power. In any case, most HAM operators are prepper minded and have drills to simulate emergency communications. The FCC encourages HAM operators to become involved.
> 
> Even if you don't have a HAM radio or license get a scanner. You can listen in on police and fire channels for up to the minute info from the people who are on site. Scanners are under $100.00 and you don't need a license just to listen.
> 
> CB and FRS/GMRS are for local comms only. There are so few channels that a scanner will pick up your frequency in the time it takes to push and release the talk button. If you use CB's see if you can find someone to tweak the power up a bit. They're limited by law to 5 watts transmit power (I think??). If you get someone to power it up a bit they'll reach a lot farther. (Of course your neighbors might hear interference on their television which makes them a bit irate.) It's illegal to broadcast on the higher watts but if TSHT who cares!
> 
> FRS/GMRS radios aren't much better than toys. They're pretty much line of sight which means that if there's termite mound, a tree, or the nighbor's cow between you, you won't be able to get through. We use ours for comms around the property only. They're so easy to block it isn't funny. Many have built in scanners and once they have your channel they just need to tape the transmit button down and you're locked out.
> 
> Cell phones are a joke during a widespread crisis. The towers are overloaded immediately. Land lines may not be much better.


I've always somehow had a notion that if I got a HAM License, Uncle Sam would have no scruples about 'impressing' my services, with or without my consent, 'for the good of the country'...


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## Jimmy24

Might be a moot point....

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...national-security-and-emergency-preparedness-

Jimmy


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## steveinusa

When shtf, Thinking outside the box here, and seeing how cops and the public acted in Katrina I kinda think all commercial, and law enforcement coms going down would be a BENEFIT to the *PREPARED *person.
I don't want the Law taking my stuff like they did during katrina. I don't want bands of thugs being able to communicate, congregate then taking my stuff.
I am a ham radio operator and that is the best way to go. They have repeaters for county wide comms. Also I have a portable 12 volt radio the size of hard cover book that talks on almost all frequencies HF, VHF and UHF and does receive on all. With a small motorcycle battery, and that in my back pack I will be connected to my family and the world with a piece of long wire as an antenna strung up between trees an a rubber-duckie antenna. Of course the prepared person has a list of all important frequencies and repeater access codes in bug out bag. Family members each have a walkie with pre-programmed channels each knows how to use. Government in some/most terror scenarios will throw the switch on all cell and internet and shut it down anyhow, but leave military and LEO's comms working so they can round everyone up. Not what I want. 
Remember, the Law has a family that needs food and water and they have shown they will take it from people that have it using their intimidation tactics. So if they cannot communicate with their law buddies, all the better. Sounds harsh but its just being real. Being prepped means having the edge on EVERYONE.


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## Geek999

pawpaw said:


> I was reading a local article from here in Florida's panhandle about local cell service slow-downs & even disconnects.
> It seems that the annual spring break deluge in Panama City this year has cell tower capacities maxed out. Those kids ARE about tweets & f-book, ain't they?
> It just got me to thinking: the same thing happened on 9/11, Katrina, and other regional emergencies, didn't it? But spring break? My guess is that after a NATIONAL event, it's game over.
> I see many posts about how you can keep your electronics charged after an emergency, but now I wonder if these systems have even kept pace with increased customer loads, etc. Just sayin'....


9/11 was a different problem. There were 10 cell towers on the top of the WTC that obviously went out, but more importantly there was a Verizon switching center about 1 block north of the WTC. Debris (like big steel beams) came through the roof of the building taking out 400,000 lines, so all service was out, not just cell service.

9/11 was also pre-Facebook and twitter and relatively few phones had cameras, so none of that was a factor either. However, there were plenty of people just trying to contact their families to tell them they were okay.

More recently we had Hurricane Sandy and the cell service had about 8 hours of backup power and then it became sketchy.


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## Padre

Geek999 said:


> 9/11 was a different problem. There were 10 cell towers on the top of the WTC that obviously went out, but more importantly there was a Verizon switching center about 1 block north of the WTC. Debris (like big steel beams) came through the roof of the building taking out 400,000 lines, so all service was out, not just cell service.
> 
> 9/11 was also pre-Facebook and twitter and relatively few phones had cameras, so none of that was a factor either. However, there were plenty of people just trying to contact their families to tell them they were okay.
> 
> More recently we had Hurricane Sandy and the cell service had about 8 hours of backup power and then it became sketchy.


That might be true in NYC but we had the same problems in DC. At the time I was working next door to the whitehouse and early on I had a hard time getting through and then after the plane hit the pentagon I couldn't until I got out of the District.

My first and only real experience of bugging out, years before ever hearing of the term.

Sent from my XT1080 using Survival Forum mobile app


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## TheLazyL

dataman19 said:


> ......but dropped to 7% when the Verizon Network was voluntarily reduced in capacity as a prerequisite for the test)...people in the test zones just got a lot of "no signal" or "no service" indicators on "their" cell phones...


I find this hard to believe.

Verizon purposely risk loosing customers by testing during a non maintenance window?


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## Geek999

Padre said:


> That might be true in NYC but we had the same problems in DC. At the time I was working next door to the whitehouse and early on I had a hard time getting through and then after the plane hit the pentagon I couldn't until I got out of the District.
> 
> My first and only real experience of bugging out, years before ever hearing of the term.
> 
> Sent from my XT1080 using Survival Forum mobile app


Having to Escape from New York, I can relate to the problems of getting back across the Potomac.

The cell network has always been subject to overload, particularly if the network is degraded for some reason. Facebook and Twitter are just the latest uses for bandwidth. If the bandwidth goes away, . . .


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## LincTex

Geek999 said:


> The cell network has always been subject to overload, particularly if the network is degraded for some reason.


I can scarcely get through the network to call family members on Christmas or Mother's Day, so an emergency makes things ten times worse.

I do have a cell tower not far from me with a diesel generator below it... looks like about 100 gallon fuel tank, so I give it two days tops.


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## Geek999

LincTex said:


> I can scarcely get through the network to call family members on Christmas or Mother's Day, so an emergency makes things ten times worse.
> 
> I do have a cell tower not far from me with a diesel generator below it... looks like about 100 gallon fuel tank, so I give it two days tops.


That set up sounds like they are planning to refuel as needed, but during Hurricane Sandy there were so many downed trees that you couldn't get to what needed service. The whole process of repair required getting trees out of the way whether it was power lines, communications, fuel delivery, or anything else.


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## LincTex

In a TRUE "WROL" event, I give that generator a week tops before it sprouts feet and runs away. Same with the new Kohler diesel unit the city installed the other day on the sewage lift pump 2 miles away. 

The batteries and fuel will be gone first, anyway.


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## Outpost

During the Boston Marathon Bombing event, cell systems were bogged down well North into New Hampshire. (I can only assume it was the same within the same radius in all directions)

Lots of people were under the mistaken belief that the F.B.I. had shut down service. (This was a rumor started by an ignoramus speaking to the media).

The truth is that there were so many people checking up on each other that the network was clogged to a screeching halt. At the time, voice calls were impossible as far North as Concord New Hampshire due to the routing and re-routing (which happens automatically), but text messages went through with only slight delays. 

Cellular communications, it seems to me, is probably the least reliable for any mass emergency. 

Some of the remote radio transmitter and cell sites I've seen (in N.H.) use propane powered generators. The tanks are usually helicoptered in. (you can probably figure out that they don't use very big tanks!) The only roads are usually old logging roads.... not reliably passable.


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## Geek999

On 9/11 I had to get across the Hudson and about 20 miles further into NJ before I got a signal.


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## hiwall

The cell tower that is closest to me has either a 250 or a 500 gallon propane tank. It does have a three or four mile very rough dirt road that leads to it.


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## cnsper

The best uses of the cell towers after the event is a deer stand. Or pigeon stand if you are in NY etc.

BTW for those in the city, pigeon is a dark meat and does taste really good. When I was a kid we got a grouse, pheasant and pigeon one weekend and grandma cooked them all up at once. They are so small though you might have to convince your SO that it is a cornish game hen... LOL


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