# Has anyone taken out a loan to prep with?



## myrtle55

Just wondering if anyone has taken out a loan to prep with? I am debt free except for mortgage, so don't want debt as income stretched thin, but things like cistern (big ticket Items) would take a loan. Of course if shtf no bank would come looking for me to pay it probably


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## Geek999

I think you'll find this group to be quite conservative financially. For property improvements, you might want a Home Equity loan, but generally staying out of debt is the best policy.


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## Country Living

We would not incur debt just to buy something for our preps. 

Food, water, shelter, and protection are just one facet of our disaster preparedness plan. Our plan also includes staying debt free, having an emergency / contingency fund, and a solid plan in place so we know how much to budget for maintenance, repairs, and purchases. We make every dollar count which is why we don't buy "stuff".


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## tsrwivey

I would rarely recommend taking out a loan for anything other than a house. If your income is stretched thin, the last thing you need is more bills (debt). When the income is stretched thin, my recommendation is to cut down on lifestyle &/or downsize the house. Your house note shouldn't be more than 20% of your income! much more than that & it becomes stressful.


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## Sentry18




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## Grimm

WHAT!?! 

Go into debt just to prep?! 


Doesn't that defeat the point of prepping????


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## myrtle55

I am feeling good on how we stand here financially, have paid cash for all property improvements and maintenance, have cash stashed for contingency, and food stashed for 12 people for 6~8 months and the garden I s almost all in. But will just have to save up for water storage I guess, am just feeling a crazy crunch about needing to get larger water storage. Thanks all for talking me off the ledge. I was not comfy with a loan situation


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## Tirediron

I would think a cistern would be a fair reason to borrow a bit of money if you could get it for a decent interest rate, people will finance a car that depreciates faster than a lead ball drops, so a cistern that add value to you life make sense to me.


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## cowboyhermit

It seems like a reasonable thing to borrow money for, I would avoid it personally though. Preparedness should save you money imo.

If the water thing is really bothering you, have you considered something temporary that could be sold or re-purposed? There are 1250 imp gallon (1500 gallon U.S.) tanks for less than $600 (new) available that have decent resale value for instance.


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## Caribou

Every dollar paid in interest is a buck less in preps.


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## Dakine

The .gov calls it a loan, but it's also 401k. I can "borrow" and pay interest to myself and the only risk is that the returns on my investments will be substantially lower because I was not investing as much into the funds/bonds/etc while the amount of the 401k was diminished by the loan.

Okay cool.

Now, what do you with that money? If you remodeled your kitchen and bathroom, hey, fantastic, I'm happy you're happy!  on a preppers forum, does investing 10-40k on remodeling make... sense?

Sure!!! why not? if you already have preps, you're good with beans, bullets and bandaids and you've got all the angles covered, why not?

If you have NO preps and all of a sudden you have $20 mad money to spend, and you want to make the best use of it... ? that's a totally different question!

You're not going to buy a gun, you're not going to buy livestock, but you do have options!

You may consider porch gardens in 5 gallon buckets, or you may think about raising meat rabbits as food. You cant buy a cage or a rabbit for the $20 I just mentioned, but watch craigslist, there's "curb alerts" as someone I know called them, I don't know if that's what Craigslist calls them... where stuff is put out for free! just come get it!

for $20 you can go back to the porch gardens, that's better than nothing. Carrots, potatoes, beets, who knows what, in 5 gal buckets. Tomatoes from drop down bags in the ceiling on your patio. PROTIP! the $1 "eco-friendly" grocery bag at your local store is NO DIFFERENT than the $12 "grow upside-down!" bag. buy a $1 at the grocer and just use the same strategy, cut a small X for the tomatoes to sprout through and monitor them accordingly.

anyway... lots can be done on a budget 

So back to borrowing... new Capital One CC agreements have some kind of provision that they will send people to your work or to your house to collect or harass you? There was a thread here that detailed that. 

I would be wary of buying on CC... but you have to evaluate your risk, your ability to cover your bills, and timeline for being prepped in the fashions you want to adapt.

Nobody wants to be the last person to know when the SHTF, and nobody wants to be screwed because they had their money in this bank, or that bank, and nobody wants to be screwed...

Congress will pass laws that take "EVERYTHING"
they will pass illegal laws to seize everything because the welfare class they've spent the last 120 years creating demands bread and circus instead of paying our debt.

buying on CC debt just gives them a reason to come "collect" 

A very slippery slope!


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## BillS

We took out a 401k loan to prep with. I'd definitely consider taking out a loan to get the prep items that you need. People always say to stay out of debt but why? When it hits the fan do you want to have what you need or do you want good credit while you do without?


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## Geek999

The issue in my mind is that you have no idea if, or when, a disaster will occur. Then toss in not knowing what will occur. Let's say you take a loan and buy a year's supplly of food for the whole family. Next a tornado hits and scatters your food all over the next county. Oops! :-(

Preps are like insurance. Would you take a loan to buy insurance?


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## Tirediron

the OP asked about a cistern not remodeling or bags of lts food, if someone needs a cistern, they are probably in a water challenged area, a cistern is really a necessity and it needs to be well built, (try to stay on track kids not just type what the monkeys running around in you head say)


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## Moose33

Personally I'd save for it but I abhore debt. That's why I drive a 14 year old car and have furniture that is even older. 

While saving I would be stashing alternatives though. Rain barrels, bottled water, store your own in 2L bottles, whatever but no debt.


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## Country Living

If you take out a loan against your 401k and you lose your job, you either have to immediately pay back the loan in full or take a huge hit on your income tax because it would be considered income. And if you're under 59 1/2 - that bit old 10% penalty really hurts.

Just something to think about.


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## Grimm

BillS said:


> People always say to stay out of debt but why?


I feel that staying out of debt is important to prepping because you'll leave your preps and free cash to your loved ones if S never HTF when you die. Would you rather leave mountains of debts and preps or stashes of silver/gold/fiat money AND preps?

K's dad passed away in July. He left sooooooo much debt in loans and credit cards (to remodel the house he refinanced with a 30 year loan at 65 years old) that his wife ran out of state and changed her name to escape it. All the items he bought with the credit and loans was sold and donated to offset the amount owed in taxes. So nothing was really left for the family to inherit except debt when the creditors come when they can't find his wife.


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## Geek999

BillS said:


> We took out a 401k loan to prep with. I'd definitely consider taking out a loan to get the prep items that you need. People always say to stay out of debt but why? When it hits the fan do you want to have what you need or do you want good credit while you do without?


Very few people can manage debt effectively. It generally works best if you are using the money for something income producing, which isn't what most consumers do. The income pays off the debt.

Using a mortgage to buy a house is pretty much the only way most people can do it and there are significant tax advantages, so that is an exception to the rule of avoiding debt. Overall there is more credit available than people know how to use properlly.


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## cowboyhermit

Geek999 said:


> Very few people can manage debt effectively. It generally works best if you are using the money for something income producing, which isn't what most consumers do. The income pays off the debt.


I don't know if I have ever agreed more with Geek999, that is pretty much my view of debt. If it is going to make/save me money now, then it is worth considering, if not then I should get the cash for it first.


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## readytogo

*Loans for preping,no way.*

In my opinion I prep to avoid trouble or headaches in the event of a shtf situation getting a loan to prepared for this shtf situation will only created more headaches and family stress, of course I`m looking at this from the point of a family man on a low working salary/pension/SSA disability income, if anybody has the high income and feel the need for a loan to buy truck loads of supplies or ammo, go for it, just remember that sometimes too much is not enough.


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## Caribou

Tirediron said:


> the OP asked about a cistern not remodeling or bags of lts food, if someone needs a cistern, they are probably in a water challenged area, a cistern is really a necessity and it needs to be well built, (try to stay on track kids not just type what the monkeys running around in you head say)


Monkeys running around in my head? Really? Excuse me for a minute while I feel offended.

I have lived for decades on a cistern for all my water needs so I have an idea what they are all about I have built and taken care of several. We lived for years with an above ground swimming pool that had a plastic liner. These can be had for as little as a thousand dollars. We used ours till we could afford better.

I believe my parents currently own six cisterns and the swimming pools is long gone. They never borrowed for any of them. A friend of mine pot three cisterns in for his home. Most people within 10 or 12 miles of my parents have at least one cistern. With 150" to 200" of rain per year, no I would not call it water challenged. Unless your cistern is too small.

The OP has water now. So my advice is to save a grand and buy an above ground pool. This will function for years after which tim you should be able to save up for an in ground cistern.


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## myrtle55

All grand advice, and the fact that there is a bit controversary over it proves that my discomfort in the decision is justified. I appreciate each and every reply, thank you kindly!


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## Geek999

Tirediron said:


> the OP asked about a cistern not remodeling or bags of lts food, if someone needs a cistern, they are probably in a water challenged area, a cistern is really a necessity and it needs to be well built, (try to stay on track kids not just type what the monkeys running around in you head say)


The OP asked about taking a loan for preps. The cistern is an example. If the cistern is needed for regular usage then I wouldn't consider it a prep, but a need for basic habitabilty of the property. If it is desired for emergencies, but isn't normally needed then we are talking a prep. However, the basic question is the advisabilty of taking a loan for preps.

To discuss this one needs to consider what are good ways to use credit vs. Ways to use credit that get you into trouble as well as what does or doesn't qualify as a prep item.

I think the respondents are doing okay.


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## Tirediron

@ geek I do my best to be politically correct, some people simply don't subscribe to my anarchist policy.


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## Geek999

Tirediron said:


> @ geek I do my best to be politically correct, some people simply don't subscribe to my anarchist policy.


If we all agreed on everything what would we talk about?


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## myrtle55

I personally enjoy the diversity of responses here. I feel the more diverse we are the more we can learn from each other


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## doubleTHICK

myrtle55 said:


> All grand advice, and the fact that there is a bit controversary over it proves that my discomfort in the decision is justified. I appreciate each and every reply, thank you kindly!


I say this all the time to people and they look at me like I am an A-hole, but it really is true. 'If you feel you have to ask the question, then you already know the answer'

To be honest here I think you already had your answer and maybe was hoping for someone to tell you it's ok to get a loan. 
'I really want/need a cistern, but it would require me to get a loan. What should I do?' The "but" answered your question. (I could easily be wrong)

If you feel you have to ask the question, then you already know the answer.


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## 101airborne

No loan but we do have a low interest credit cars we use for big purchases or emergencies.


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## Caribou

myrtle55 said:


> I personally enjoy the diversity of responses here. I feel the more diverse we are the more we can learn from each other


You are absolutely correct. If everybody agreed with me how would I ever learn. We each get to make our own decisions. Sometimes there is no right answer or no wrong answer, only a decision.

I tend to get a little PO'ed when people start with the name calling. I expect this from the trolls but when I get this from someone that I like and respect then I tend to get a bit more emotional.


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## Beaniemaster2

I cashed in my government retirement to get all my long term storage... I have no confidence that it will still be there at any time based on the current events.... 

If all I had was a mortgage then yes I would use credit to stock up... Get all you need with just a monthly payment sounds good to me... If SHTF.... what payment???? hahahahaha


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## Geek999

Beaniemaster2 said:


> I cashed in my government retirement to get all my long term storage... I have no confidence that it will still be there at any time based on the current events....
> 
> If all I had was a mortgage then yes I would use credit to stock up... Get all you need with just a monthly payment sounds good to me... If SHTF.... what payment???? hahahahaha


What if no SHTF?


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## Caribou

Geek999 said:


> What if no SHTF?


Or, what if the S does HTF. Katrina? The Great Depression? It seems like creditors always want their due. We may have our beans and oatmeal but creditors have their accounts receivable.


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## gabbyj310

I took out a loan to buy my mini farm but..... it was NOT just a BOL it was/is my home.I got a good piece of land a double garage(needs work) and a old old trailer I should have burned down for scrap but decided I knew enough to have it re-done(my third one btw)...ha BIG mistake.Now I'm so far into it I can't turn back.Still and yet if I EVER get it done good for me.I will still have three acres(almost paid for) a very nice trailer so I will drag the thing over by the pond, rent it out for a little extra cash,and hope by that time I can afford to have a small underground house built.I'm paying as I go,with no credit,just cash . But when I build the house I will have to take out a loan,but by then the land will be paid in full and maybe just part of the house,I will have to get a loan on. I'm always afraid "they" may want it so If I stay below the radar and don't owe then I can go un-noticed.Other than family I'm sure they may think they know what I have but ...oh boy they will never know what,how much or where it is.If I haven't used credit it will be hard to KNOW what I do or don't have....


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## TheLazyL

myrtle55 said:


> Just wondering if anyone has taken out a loan to prep with? I am debt free except for mortgage, so don't want debt as income stretched thin, but things like cistern (big ticket Items) would take a loan. Of course if shtf no bank would come looking for me to pay it probably


No.

Borrowing a $1 and then being obligated to pay $1.05 (annual interest) back is (IMHO) ludicrous. You would save 5% by paying cash. And that 5% savings could be used for more preps!

Too many borrow for a house, cars, boat, appliance, furniture, vacations, ATV, snow mobiles, wide screen TV with surround sound, credit card debts, college education, latest smart phone and finally a divorce from all the financial stress.

A better method (again IMHO) is to Tithe 10% of your income, save 10% and live on the rest.

Savings isn't large enough for that cistern you want? How about 55 gallon plastic barrels to catch your rain runoff? Look for a older above ground pool that someone would let you have for the cost of moving it? 5 gallon jugs stored in your basement? Anything is better then nothing and would allow you to continue to save towards the cistern.

To address the thought of borrowing all a person could because somehow they KNOW that TEOTWAWKI event will prohibit anyone from collecting on the debt is (again IMHO) is thievery.


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## LincTex

I borrowed $10K against my 401K to put a down payment (owner financed) on some land. Paid it off over 60 months. Interest went back into my 401K.


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## rugster

myrtle55 said:


> Just wondering if anyone has taken out a loan to prep with? I am debt free except for mortgage, so don't want debt as income stretched thin, but things like cistern (big ticket Items) would take a loan. Of course if shtf no bank would come looking for me to pay it probably


Not me.

Part of my prep is being as debt free as possible


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## LongRider

myrtle55 said:


> Just wondering if anyone has taken out a loan to prep with? I am debt free except for mortgage, so don't want debt as income stretched thin, but things like cistern (big ticket Items) would take a loan. Of course if shtf no bank would come looking for me to pay it probably


That is almost a oxymoron. At least in my mind being debt free is the most basic prep. IMHO pay off the mortgage even one or two extra payments a year on the principle will do miracles in that dept. Once the mortgage is paid off you can use what you are accustomed to paying out on the mortgage for preps. At least that is my take on it but I am way old school from my mom who lived through WWII Italy. I have never bought anything on credit that I could not pay off at the end of the month. In our family credit is something you build not use.


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## Tirediron

Has anybody tried the patchwork solutions instead of just doing what you are going to do eventually in the first place??? I guess without details on the cost and design of this particular project it is hard to justify why you should or should not borrow to reach the goal. Most temporary solutions eat up more time and resources than just doing what will eventually be done.


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## forluvofsmoke

Tirediron said:


> *Has anybody tried the patchwork solutions* instead of just doing what you are going to do eventually in the first place??? I guess without details on the cost and design of this particular project it is hard to justify why you should or should not borrow to reach the goal. Most *temporary solutions eat up more time and resources than just doing what will eventually be done.*


Excellent point, and speaking from experience, as I have done that on many occasions for various reasons, knowing full well that I would make changes later. It does oftentimes create a new set of problems. If the resources I used for the temporary fix can not be re-purposed for the long-term solution, then I now have to reassess the possibility of using the temporary items for redundancy, and try to incorporate it all together...it doesn't work out very well in some cases, while others do. In the long-term, I have invested more time, resources and money than would have been necessary if I'd just done it right the first time around. And, that time, resources and money could have been used for other necessities later on.

I still do this to this day (you'd think I would have learned by now ???), but there is always a process of evaluation involved. You know what you need, but you can't get it now with the resources you currently have available...so you begin to weigh your options...the benefits and drawbacks...how high on your list of priorities is it, and is there a high risk of failure without it. Eventually you have to make a decision on waiting to do it the way you know it needs to be done, or, gamble with a compromise to get it sooner in hopes that you can make improvements later that won't gouge into cost vs effectiveness/benefit.

I think at some stage in the game we will/have all reach(ed) a similar cross-road with our preps, and that is going to be a challenge that each of us will need to evaluate when we're faced with it. Take each set of potential problems as a challenge, not a road-block...to gain knowledge and expand this into opportunities to reach our goals in, hopefully, a better state of preparedness than we thought was possible with the means we have available...and to know that we have achievable goals (this sets our standard for continuing forward, does it not?). Getting unbiased, yet diverse opinions will, at the very least, give us ideas which we can expand upon. We are all here for the same basic purpose, and the more creative thoughts we are exposed to, the more possibilities we will be able to see as viable options for our own set of goals.

I'm like many regarding debt...don't like it, don't go out of my way to get it. Sometimes it's unavoidable...do you compromise by taking on debt, or not meet your goals? Do you re-evaluate your goals and compromise with your needs? How do you repay the debt, and what part of your budget is going to get cut? These are not easy decisions to make for anyone, especially those with fixed/limited incomes. Hang tough, 'cuz it's not going to get easier, but you will come through it with more character and insight with each of these challenges that you face, as long as you rise to the challenge and make every effort within your means to do what you know is right for your situation.

Just don't forget to live a little in the [here and now], as well as the [what if]...life's too short to get stuck in the middle, or, allow yourself to make rash decisions basing absolutely everything you do on [what if]...'cuz [here and now] will fall apart. Finding a good balance is the key.


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## myrtle55

What are patchwork solutions?


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## Caribou

myrtle55 said:


> What are patchwork solutions?


I believe they are referring to doing a little bit here and a little bit there as cash allows. This can sometimes mean doing a temporary job till you can do it right.

For example, my parents needed a larger cistern when my brothers showed up. An above ground free standing pool did the job for, give or take, fifteen years. After a permanent concrete cistern was built this one was trashed. I think we got out moneys worth out of it but there is a valid argument that that money was wasted and that we should have invested in the concrete cistern originally.

These are considerations you need to weigh for yourself. Does the temporary fix cost more than the interest? How bad do I need it? Can I afford the payments? How secure is my income? There are many other factors to consider before you borrow.

I know what my decision is but I don't know all the particulars about your situation. The great thing about being an adult is making your own decisions. Good luck,


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## Tirediron

myrtle55 said:


> What are patchwork solutions?


instead of building the cistern you want/need, some people suggested a bunch of temporary solutions that might fill the gap but use up time and resources that could be better spent on the real goal.


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## myrtle55

We are financially stable, with bug income to handle mortgage, maintenance, insurances, 5 vehicles (all paid off) , 2 RV'S, cargo trailer, gardens, etc. No debt except mortgage. I can save for water storage and hope sh doesn't hit f before I get something. I feel confident that my preps are adequate for 12 ppl for at least 6 to 8 months. So now is when I am gathering Intel on what is my next big ticket item and how do I want to obtain it. This is the purpose of my question. As I have said, I feel sh is gonna hit sooner rather than later...or.....I could be full of it...lol


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## Beaniemaster2

Well, I guess it all boils down to are you willing to take a chance... Don't buy stuff now and SHTF, you're screwed... You may end up paying alittle more in interest but get back a whole lot in security...


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## Caribou

If you borrow for a large ticket item do you think you will have time to pay it off before the S does HTF? If time runs out is your income source reliable enough to make your payments in tomorrows world?


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## helicopter5472

O.K. what happens if say you have 2/3 credit cards say 20K between all available. You decide to max them out and then start making the monthly payments as planned...Then SHTF and you still have an outstanding balance of thousands. If it a major SHTF like EMP or financial crisis, who is going to come and collect? If you are buying a car/truck or equipment or your house you may have a chance that someone will show up to repo. said items, but I wouldn't want to be that person, Most people will guard their property, especially when everything is in turmoil conditions. Banks probably will be out of business, credit card companies can't really collect on basic goods. It's a pretty safe bet that you are safe in any "Major SHTF" scenario. Major items cars/trucks, homes, have or can get insurance polices for loss of job which might be a good extra option if you feel the end is near.


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## myrtle55

Caribou said:


> If you borrow for a large ticket item do you think you will have time to pay it off before the S does HTF? If time runs out is your income source reliable enough to make your payments in tomorrows world?


Ultimately I believe financial collapse is what I am prepping for. I made sure I was out of debt so that if shtf I will not be feeling guilty about being unable to pay because my money is not worth anything. I have awesome credit, because it's all paid off. I believe in paying off what I purchase and not sure how I would feel if I could not do so for above reasons. My income source is military so I don't think that will continue in this scenario. I am sure I will figure it out, just hope I have time to. I HATE owing anyone..interrupts my sleep..lol


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## Tirediron

there is also the option of building a wood framed dug in cistern lined with heavy plastic , then a pool liner, and this way you can use the same space to build the concrete cistern when funds are available, but that being said if the military owes you money and it stops, why feel guilty for not being able to pay back a loan from a corporation that exists to grab a few percent from people with income usually using other peoples money IE parasites.


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## Caribou

helicopter5472 said:


> O.K. what happens if say you have 2/3 credit cards say 20K between all available. You decide to max them out and then start making the monthly payments as planned...Then SHTF and you still have an outstanding balance of thousands. If it a major SHTF like EMP or financial crisis, who is going to come and collect? If you are buying a car/truck or equipment or your house you may have a chance that someone will show up to repo. said items, but I wouldn't want to be that person, Most people will guard their property, especially when everything is in turmoil conditions. Banks probably will be out of business, credit card companies can't really collect on basic goods. It's a pretty safe bet that you are safe in any "Major SHTF" scenario. Major items cars/trucks, homes, have or can get insurance polices for loss of job which might be a good extra option if you feel the end is near.


Anything short of a "Road Warrior" world or death the banks are going to come after you. Banks have been collecting bad debts for centuries. This is the money business and they are the professionals.

When your bank goes belly up it is not like a ship sinking. Their assets, i.e. your debt, still exists. Another bank buys it up and they come after you. I was a bankruptcy trustee for a few years. About the time I got out of the business credit card debt became a non dischargeable debt.

When I borrow money I promise to pay it back. I may not like the company I borrowed the money from but that does not matter. What matters is my word.


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## Geek999

I think each of us has some particular scenario that seems more credible than what others may be prepping for. Because of my experience having to dodge airplanes, I've come to the conclusion that what will actually happen may be completely different than what we may expect.

The good news is that most of the preps will be useful under almost any scenario, so if you prep for economic collapse and what happens is a pandemic, you still need water, food, etc. As a result, you can be totally wrong in the scenario you think is going to occur, and still be right in having chosen to prep.

You also have to consider the idea that what you expect happens, right after you've been foreclosed on due to non-payment of debt. :-(


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## Padre

Myrtle55 in general I agree with the debt free approach but for a NEW prepper...or a prepped who believes there to be a big hole in his preps sometimes a little debt to get you to a bare minimum standard of preps is worth the cost in interest because of what you make up in peace of mind. When I was starting out some years ago I took out a few low interest short term loans to get me squared away.

Just realize you could be trading the equivalent of a half year of food for that immediate gratification.


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## doubleTHICK

LongRider said:


> That is almost a oxymoron. At least in my mind being debt free is the most basic prep. IMHO pay off the mortgage even one or two extra payments a year on the principle will do miracles in that dept. Once the mortgage is paid off you can use what you are accustomed to paying out on the mortgage for preps. At least that is my take on it but I am way old school from my mom who lived through WWII Italy. I have never bought anything on credit that I could not pay off at the end of the month. In our family credit is something you build not use.


That is my new t-shirt. Never heard anybody say it that way before- love it :congrat:

Running through the posts it appears to be a choice that only you can make for yourself, there doesn't seem to be a clear 'winner' for each side of the argument.

Damn I don't want this to come out the wrong but; some on here and probably other preppers not on here have fallen into the Hollywood trap. Going out and maxing your credit cards and creating debt with no worries of repayment is at best delusional. Even if the stock market tanks and the Dollar is no longer the World's currency and the 1930's seem like resort-style living that debt you created will still be there. Super rich people/banks buy that debt at a great deal and they will expect you to pay it back in whatever the World's currency is at that time. It now is even more debt because of the loss in exchange rate. (of course this may never happen)
I just want those to be aware that your debt doesn't go away if the dollar does.


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## Dakine

Grimm said:


> I feel that staying out of debt is important to prepping because you'll leave your preps and free cash to your loved ones if S never HTF when you die. Would you rather leave mountains of debts and preps or stashes of silver/gold/fiat money AND preps?
> 
> K's dad passed away in July. He left sooooooo much debt in loans and credit cards (to remodel the house he refinanced with a 30 year loan at 65 years old) that his wife ran out of state and changed her name to escape it. All the items he bought with the credit and loans was sold and donated to offset the amount owed in taxes. So nothing was really left for the family to inherit except debt when the creditors come when they can't find his wife.


I understand fully what he did.

He realized he was never going to get it better than borrowing against something that he didnt particularly care about handing down to anyone anyways!

I have no idea how he felt about his wife, your stories about that family are pretty concerning, I'd hope he at least thought he was going to outlive her and then he was WILLFULLY giving the middle finger to the bank that lent him the money AND to the offspring who thought they were gonna get a payday, but who knows...

basically good for him for enjoying his last years. I have a lot of problems with how that credit was handed out, but I'm glad an old geezer got to enjoy a little bit of comfort, and F the banks. they're so busy raping everyone I have no sympathy for them at all, what really gets me going is when congress starts giving them exemptions.

banks and congress = PROBLEM!!!


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## Dakine

Caribou said:


> You are absolutely correct. If everybody agreed with me how would I ever learn. We each get to make our own decisions. Sometimes there is no right answer or no wrong answer, only a decision.
> 
> I tend to get a little PO'ed when people start with the name calling. I expect this from the trolls but when I get this from someone that I like and respect then I tend to get a bit more emotional.


meh... I squabble with ppl I like too, not happy about it but it happens, thankfully rarely 

it's not personal, it's never personal... I have an opinion on "thing A" so someone has a different opinion.. okay! lets concentrate most of our effort on agreeing on thing B, thing C and thing E and we disagreed again on "D"..


----------



## Caribou

We all have our own opinions on credit and that is as it should be. Let me explain why I feel as I do. A couple years after I paid off my first house I got sick. The doctor gave me the option of sitting inside with the drapes closed or going blind. By the time my illness had run its course I had lost my job. They held it for a few months but hey they had a business to run and I couldn't show up. By the time I healed up and found another job it was close to a year later. If I had a mortgage to pay I would have lost my home. 

I had food in the cupboard and cash in the bank. When I finally went back to work I had about two weeks before my monthly bills came due and I did not have the cash to cover them. The cupboards were bare. I got through by the skin on my teeth only because I held no debt.

I sold that house and bought another, through the bank, but I paid that one off early also. I use credit sparingly.


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## LongRider

FYI Backwoods Home Magazine has an article on how to build a 1,100 gallon Cistern for under $400, At Build a cistern out of
corrugated road culvert In case you are interested

An aside IMHO Backwoods Home Magazine should be on every prepper, homesteader list of subscriptions.


----------



## millertimedoneright

I keep seeing people worry about repaying debts after the shtf. Let's say you owe 20 thousand dollars and then the shtf. If they come to collect during or after the shtf you will still owe 20 thousand dollars. Notice I keep saying dollars. Your debt is 20 thousand dollars not 20k worth of food or gold. After the shtf the dollar will be practically worthless and 20k could prolly be got for a bag of oranges. Even with the dollar being completely useless that is the debt you are to pay back. They can't change up the debt after it is already agreed upon.


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## LongRider

doubleTHICK said:


> That is my new t-shirt. Never heard anybody say it that way before- love it :congrat:


Your welcome. It is something mom pounded into our thick skulls, it stuck and mom was right.

Rereading all the posts and the above article I may need to reconsider my post. How much money are we talking about $3,000 to $4,000? Is that about right? I would need to consider. Is water is a critical issue? Where I live Washington State next to a rain forest water is not much of an issue. So saving for it, would be the best solution. We have separate accounts for different projects/needs. But I forget each of our situations are different creating different priorities. 
If water is a critical issue and a cistern is necessary to sustain life off grid. My opinion might change. As others have said if a interim solution will work I'd go that route I would still opt to save for the concrete cistern.
Honestly I do not see why a corrugated road culvert cistern would not work. So I would use it and call it good, if for some reason it does not meet your needs I'd use it until I saved the money to build the cistern I want and keep it as back up. Now if we get to it does not even come close to meeting your needs than I might consider a loan. If there was no other way to raise the money within your perceived time constraints. You do have significant assets. If push came to shove could you liquidate some of them for your cistern? If so under those conditions I may take out a loan for a relatively small amount, though honestly with your resources and assets I do not see why you could not save that same amount. Which I think is always the number one solution


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## cowboyhermit

millertimedoneright said:


> I keep seeing people worry about repaying debts after the shtf. Let's say you owe 20 thousand dollars and then the shtf. If they come to collect during or after the shtf you will still owe 20 thousand dollars. Notice I keep saying dollars. Your debt is 20 thousand dollars not 20k worth of food or gold. *After the shtf the dollar will be practically worthless* and 20k could prolly be got for a bag of oranges. Even with the dollar being completely useless that is the debt you are to pay back. They can't change up the debt after it is already agreed upon.


This is making some huge and for the most part baseless assumptions and even if these assumptions are true in the long run it might not matter.

Nobody knows how things will go in a shtf situation, all we can do is look at history and make inferences based on sound reasoning. What history and reasoning tell us is that it is impossible to predict with any accuracy the order or timing of the breakdown of societal institutions.

Take for instance the great depression, many people with debt lost everything in that time while people with cash were able to get a huge leg up in some circumstances. There was no more credit to get so if you suddenly couldn't make your payments or property taxes say goodbye to all your property. Now despite all the governments efforts to prolong the depression  a war came along and ended it for them, but what if it hadn't? Imagine having land, preps, etc with a sizable debt when along comes several years of true economic depression. You can't pay the bills or the property taxes; maybe there is some inflation, maybe there isn't, deflation or stagflation is a real possibility under some circumstances. Bank comes and takes all your stuff or you try to sell it to pay the bills but nobody is buying and either way you have no job, no money, no property and no stuff. Then the wheels ACTUALLY come off the bus entirely and the government collapses.

Many of us like to think of the shtf happening in a way that would be convenient to us but the truth is that something completely unexpected could upset the applecart just as well.


----------



## Grimm

Dakine said:


> I understand fully what he did.
> 
> He realized he was never going to get it better than borrowing against something that he didnt particularly care about handing down to anyone anyways!
> 
> I have no idea how he felt about his wife, your stories about that family are pretty concerning, I'd hope he at least thought he was going to outlive her and then he was WILLFULLY giving the middle finger to the bank that lent him the money AND to the offspring who thought they were gonna get a payday, but who knows...
> 
> basically good for him for enjoying his last years. I have a lot of problems with how that credit was handed out, but I'm glad an old geezer got to enjoy a little bit of comfort, and F the banks. they're so busy raping everyone I have no sympathy for them at all, what really gets me going is when congress starts giving them exemptions.
> 
> banks and congress = PROBLEM!!!


What I don't get is he bought the house in 1979 for 30K. He refinanced the house in 2007 for 250K. He was less than 5K from paying it off at the time!!!

K's dad had a gambling problem. He actually didn't take out most of the debt for enjoyment other than betting on the ponies. He clearly didn't care about his 3rd wife as he didn't bother with credit life for any of the debt except what the family knew about before he died (the mortgage is the major exception- no credit life on THAT f***ed up mess)


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## myrtle55

LongRider said:


> Your welcome. It is something mom pounded into our thick skulls, it stuck and mom was right.
> 
> Rereading all the posts and the above article I may need to reconsider my post. How much money are we talking about $3,000 to $4,000? Is that about right? I would need to consider. Is water is a critical issue? Where I live Washington State next to a rain forest water is not much of an issue. So saving for it, would be the best solution. We have separate accounts for different projects/needs. But I forget each of our situations are different creating different priorities.
> If water is a critical issue and a cistern is necessary to sustain life off grid. My opinion might change. As others have said if a interim solution will work I'd go that route I would still opt to save for the concrete cistern.
> Honestly I do not see why a corrugated road culvert cistern would not work. So I would use it and call it good, if for some reason it does not meet your needs I'd use it until I saved the money to build the cistern I want and keep it as back up. Now if we get to it does not even come close to meeting your needs than I might consider a loan. If there was no other way to raise the money within your perceived time constraints. You do have significant assets. If push came to shove could you liquidate some of them for your cistern? If so under those conditions I may take out a loan for a relatively small amount, though honestly with your resources and assets I do not see why you could not save that same amount. Which I think is always the number one solution


I am on the peninsula of western wash and you probably know our rain situations around here. What I want/ need is a large holding cell of some kind for rainwater to collect in that we can access for our needs. I have currently a collection system of about 350 gal. But watering garden and fruit trees eats that in no time. I like the corrugated idea and may have someone help me look into it..might be my answer, and I am ok with a debt of that size..couple, 3, ? months without mishap could square that away. (Waving to ya neighbor)


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## Caribou

I know several with the culvert type of cistern and I have helped set a couple. These are one of my favorite. Usually these are much larger like up to 12' across.


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## LongRider

myrtle55 said:


> I am on the peninsula of western wash and you probably know our rain situations around here. What I want/ need is a large holding cell of some kind for rainwater to collect in that we can access for our needs. I have currently a collection system of about 350 gal. But watering garden and fruit trees eats that in no time. I like the corrugated idea and may have someone help me look into it..might be my answer, and I am ok with a debt of that size..couple, 3, ? months without mishap could square that away. (Waving to ya neighbor)


Isn't there any water on your property? The corrugated cistern seems like it will work very well for you. You are also right a three month debt is no big deal.
Last it almost seems like A different question than your OP. It appears that you are talking about a present day self sustaining need, rather than a prep. I think many would have had a different response, if the OP had the info that it is a present day need and only a very short term (3month?) debt. Still, if a less expensive option will work I'd go that route


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## myrtle55

We are on public water but septic sewer. When we bought this place seller had to pay to have new septic tank and drainfield installed so I paid th extra to have a system twice the required size put in. But if water stops pumping then all we have is rainwater and what we have stored. Present day we do fine on public water, cistern would fall under a prep in my brain. We use our rainwater collected to water gardens right now (we have to pay utility for our water usage so try and keep it as small as 7 people can ). But this idea of corrugated cistern seems to be right what I need, and if cost is truly smaller perhaps after paying for one another could be in future. OP was thought that to store large amts would be like 10k


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## Caribou

The picture is of a tank wholly above ground. You may want to dig down far enough that the top of the tank is below the gutter and the bottom of the tank is below the frost line. The culvert is designed to be underground so backfilling is no problem. Being below the frostline will help protect the tank and water line from freezing.


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## LongRider

myrtle55 said:


> We are on public water but septic sewer. When we bought this place seller had to pay to have new septic tank and drainfield installed so I paid th extra to have a system twice the required size put in. But if water stops pumping then all we have is rainwater and what we have stored. Present day we do fine on public water, cistern would fall under a prep in my brain. We use our rainwater collected to water gardens right now (we have to pay utility for our water usage so try and keep it as small as 7 people can ). But this idea of corrugated cistern seems to be right what I need, and if cost is truly smaller perhaps after paying for one another could be in future. OP was thought that to store large amts would be like 10k


Is a well than not an option at all as in prohibited? From the article it appears that cisterns are in the $3,000 range if I recall correctly. The culvert cistern was under $400 according to the article. Of course you will need to do your own due diligence get some quotes locally to get an accurate cost comparison. I'd be interested in what you learn along that line.

We just have a different perception about what prepping is. No big. We are trying to be self sustaining. Of course in its entirety that is prepping but it is also and more importantly to us a way of life that we choose whether or not SHTF. Doing anything and everything we can to get off of local utilities and services. So something we will use today goes into the improvements/construction/ building category. So you can see how having a water supply independent of local utilities is part of being self sustaining Just a minor different way of looking at things. So the funds come from an account we have set aside for that. Preps are along the line of duplicate equipment, tools, stored food et all and is paid for out of the preps account. 


Caribou said:


> The picture is of a tank wholly above ground. You may want to dig down far enough that the top of the tank is below the gutter and the bottom of the tank is below the frost line. The culvert is designed to be underground so backfilling is no problem. Being below the frostline will help protect the tank and water line from freezing.


Some good points, definitely worth considering. Of course being below ground would require some sort of pump to get the water below the water spout/outlet.


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## millertimedoneright

To each his own but I don't prep for a depression I prep for a true shtf situation. I can provide my family with food for the next 30 years off our land if we only have a depression. If the value of the dollar skyrockets then I will be in good shape if it drops to nothing then I can pay off any debts for basically nothing. Either way it will benefit me. However i can't see the value of the dollar going up or even staying the same. We have entirely to much currency in circulation for it to increase in value like it did during the depression. If it increases in value every middle class person and every lower class person who keeps physical cash will be rich. The only poor will be the rich who keeps everything in banks and stocks. 


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## doubleTHICK

millertimedoneright said:


> I keep seeing people worry about repaying debts after the shtf. Let's say you owe 20 thousand dollars and then the shtf. If they come to collect during or after the shtf you will still owe 20 thousand dollars. Notice I keep saying dollars. Your debt is 20 thousand dollars not 20k worth of food or gold. After the shtf the dollar will be practically worthless and 20k could prolly be got for a bag of oranges. Even with the dollar being completely useless that is the debt you are to pay back. They can't change up the debt after it is already agreed upon.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


Which is fine if you have $20k of less valuable money laying around in this time of despair. What's more it will take longer to get to the $20k mark because you have to make up for the devalued percentage (because they sure as hell will not adjust or devalue the debt owed to them) and it will also be more difficult to raise that kind of money when the money is 40% weaker. (40% comes from most of the conspiracy guys)

OR just have a bag of oranges or two laying around and you'd be set 

Depression Part II or living the American Dream I am in the camp of having debt that can be paid in a months time, that's it.


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## hashbrown

Prepping will only get you a few months down the road. I would never borrow money for that.... Prep what you can and work on your survival skills. Figure out where the closest spring you can drink from is buy a few steel traps and learn how to use them and maybe buy a 22. If you are planning for the sthf most can't afford to prep for a lifetime but they can gain the skill to survive.


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## Padre

cowboyhermit said:


> This is making some huge and for the most part baseless assumptions and even if these assumptions are true in the long run it might not matter.
> 
> Nobody knows how things will go in a shtf situation, all we can do is look at history and make inferences based on sound reasoning. What history and reasoning tell us is that it is impossible to predict with any accuracy the order or timing of the breakdown of societal institutions.
> 
> Take for instance the great depression, many people with debt lost everything in that time while people with cash were able to get a huge leg up in some circumstances. There was no more credit to get so if you suddenly couldn't make your payments or property taxes say goodbye to all your property. Now despite all the governments efforts to prolong the depression  a war came along and ended it for them, but what if it hadn't? Imagine having land, preps, etc with a sizable debt when along comes several years of true economic depression. You can't pay the bills or the property taxes; maybe there is some inflation, maybe there isn't, deflation or stagflation is a real possibility under some circumstances. Bank comes and takes all your stuff or you try to sell it to pay the bills but nobody is buying and either way you have no job, no money, no property and no stuff. Then the wheels ACTUALLY come off the bus entirely and the government collapses.
> 
> Many of us like to think of the shtf happening in a way that would be convenient to us but the truth is that something completely unexpected could upset the applecart just as well.


Some debts are secured, some are not. If you don't have an asset tied to a debt a default only hurts your credit. Of course we are not talking about mortgages here!!! This is why I think its OK to have some unsecured debts if you this also means you have some real assets.

Just think back to the Newtown scare last year--ARs I bought for $600 were going for double that. How easy it would be to sell an AR for 10k if the SHTF?


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## millertimedoneright

doubleTHICK said:


> Which is fine if you have $20k of less valuable money laying around in this time of despair. What's more it will take longer to get to the $20k mark because you have to make up for the devalued percentage (because they sure as hell will not adjust or devalue the debt owed to them) and it will also be more difficult to raise that kind of money when the money is 40% weaker. (40% comes from most of the conspiracy guys)
> 
> OR just have a bag of oranges or two laying around and you'd be set
> 
> Depression Part II or living the American Dream I am in the camp of having debt that can be paid in a months time, that's it.


If our dollar is so severely devalued why not simply trade a few handfuls of fruit or food for it. By the time they come looking for their money everyone would have realized how worthless it is and will trade tons of it for a few canned goods since no one else will be willing to use it for anything other than toilet paper. If the value of the dollar collapses their will be tons of it laying around and no one will have a use for it. Oh you are hungry but have nothing of value to trade? Oh you have a few thousand dollars of our useless currency laying around? I will take it off your hands

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## Dakine

millertimedoneright said:


> If our dollar is so severely devalued why not simply trade a few handfuls of fruit or food for it. By the time they come looking for their money everyone would have realized how worthless it is and will trade tons of it for a few canned goods since no one else will be willing to use it for anything other than toilet paper. If the value of the dollar collapses their will be tons of it laying around and no one will have a use for it. Oh you are hungry but have nothing of value to trade? *Oh you have a few thousand dollars of our useless currency laying around? I will take it off your hands
> *
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


why? what makes you think the old dollars would be worth anything special? How much are those confederate dollars worth? how much were they worth after the war ended??

lets say you have an entire orchard that nary a locust or a looter raids... why do you want wheelbarrow fulls of useless money? you're gonna turn that into... ???

reminds me of the Southpark underwear gnomes episode:

Stage 1: gather underwear! (worthless paper currency)
Stage 2:
Stage 3: PROFIT!!!!

The same banking laws that will force old dollars to be traded in for whatever the new dollars are, will also have caps, because they'll say "we're stopping those involved in illicit trade (drugs especially, but other criminal enterprises) from keeping their ill-gotten gains"

good luck!


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## millertimedoneright

Use the dollars you collect to repay your debt. Any debt you collect now is in dollars so it can be repaid in dollars after the shtf even of they are useless and worthless. A 20 thousand dollar debt will still be a 20 thousand DOLLAR debt afterwards. They can't just change up the currency and say oh well you owe us 20k in gold. Any loans are made in dollars and you agree to repay in dollars. Besides that after the shtf how many banks do you think will still be standing? Computer systems will crash and they will be looted. If the bank has no money, no records, no location, and no employees how exactly are they gonna still be in business to come after you? Any event bad enough to collapse our current currency will collapse the banking system too.


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## myrtle55

LongRider said:


> Is a well than not an option at all as in prohibited? From the article it appears that cisterns are in the $3,000 range if I recall correctly. The culvert cistern was under $400 according to the article. Of course you will need to do your own due diligence get some quotes locally to get an accurate cost comparison. I'd be interested in what you learn along that line.
> 
> We just have a different perception about what prepping is. No big. We are trying to be self sustaining. Of course in its entirety that is prepping but it is also and more importantly to us a way of life that we choose whether or not SHTF. Doing anything and everything we can to get off of local utilities and services. So something we will use today goes into the improvements/construction/ building category. So you can see how having a water supply independent of local utilities is part of being self sustaining Just a minor different way of looking at things. So the funds come from an account we have set aside for that. Preps are along the line of duplicate equipment, tools, stored food et all and is paid for out of the preps account.
> 
> Some good points, definitely worth considering. Of course being below ground would require some sort of pump to get the water below the water spout/outlet.


And Presto, you have made me rethink the whole idea out here. We r working on becoming self sustaining in food dept but thought only preps for water when the real questions might be how will we sustain said water for life, and then...what is that answer worth to me...hmmmm. I love people's back and forth conversations here, makes me see other thoughts I hadn't considered. 
Water is life, guess I need to walk around the question and see what my new thoughts are


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## myrtle55

Also, just sitting here talking to mom in the hot tub. .... yep, hot tub...400 gal plus of water, and when the grid goes, a place to fill with rainwater...duh!


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## Geek999

millertimedoneright said:


> Use the dollars you collect to repay your debt. Any debt you collect now is in dollars so it can be repaid in dollars after the shtf even of they are useless and worthless. A 20 thousand dollar debt will still be a 20 thousand DOLLAR debt afterwards. They can't just change up the currency and say oh well you owe us 20k in gold. Any loans are made in dollars and you agree to repay in dollars. Besides that after the shtf how many banks do you think will still be standing? Computer systems will crash and they will be looted. If the bank has no money, no records, no location, and no employees how exactly are they gonna still be in business to come after you? Any event bad enough to collapse our current currency will collapse the banking system too.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


I think you have made some excellent points. However, I think you would find that anything short of an EMP would not destroy any records and banks would be able to switch over to a viable currency (not the dollar) pretty readily. Many of them are able to operate in multiple currencies now.

Banks are required to have extensive disaster plans, alternate locations, etc. They've been through the whole Y2k planning BS, bounced back from 9/11 in less than a week, had Hurricane Sandy flood a bunch of facilities and really not had a hiccup.

Furthermore the records are not just lying around the local branch in paper form waiting to be destroyed by looters. The records are generally backed up in multiple locations and stored on WORM optical disks, which I suspect would survive an EMP.

If every industry were as well "prepared" as the financial services industry the country would be in much better shape.


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## millertimedoneright

Geek999 said:


> I think you have made some excellent points. However, I think you would find that anything short of an EMP would not destroy any records and banks would be able to switch over to a viable currency (not the dollar) pretty readily. Many of them are able to operate in multiple currencies now.
> 
> Banks are required to have extensive disaster plans, alternate locations, etc. They've been through the whole Y2k planning BS, bounced back from 9/11 in less than a week, had Hurricane Sandy flood a bunch of facilities and really not had a hiccup.
> 
> Furthermore the records are not just lying around the local branch in paper form waiting to be destroyed by looters. The records are generally backed up in multiple locations and stored on WORM optical disks, which I suspect would survive an EMP.
> 
> If every industry were as well "prepared" as the financial services industry the country would be in much better shape.


I can definitely see that as a viable point for sure but from a personal stand point if the banks are still functioning then we aren't bad off enough for me to worry about not being able to repay the debt. One more reason I use a locally owned bank. Lol. The event I'm preparing for I don't foresee bank employees showing up for work and worrying about that 3,000 dollars you borrowed anyways. If you are worried about the bank coming after you then simply don't tie any of your loans into collateral.

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## Geek999

millertimedoneright said:


> I can definitely see that as a viable point for sure but from a personal stand point if the banks are still functioning then we aren't bad off enough for me to worry about not being able to repay the debt. One more reason I use a locally owned bank. Lol. The event I'm preparing for I don't foresee bank employees showing up for work and worrying about that 3,000 dollars you borrowed anyways. If you are worried about the bank coming after you then simply don't tie any of your loans into collateral.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


That brings me back to a point I seem to make from time to time here. The event that occurs may not be the event you expected. Most preps, e.g. Food will be needed under any scenario, so it may not matter, but planning on what survives vs. What fails may prove challenging.

Banks existed before electricity. They will probably exist even if the grid faills. Even if your bank fails, your note may be transferred to an acquiring bank. We'd be fortunate if hospitals were as secure.


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## millertimedoneright

Very true. Just that much more reason to not tie any notes in with collateral.


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## SuspectZero

I have a friend that is doing something similar. He is using credit cards to build his preps then plans on defaulting since he believes the gubment will default on its debt making the dollar worthless. 


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## Geek999

SuspectZero said:


> I have a friend that is doing something similar. He is using credit cards to build his preps then plans on defaulting since he believes the gubment will default on its debt making the dollar worthless.
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using Survival Forum


You need smarter friends.


----------



## millertimedoneright

Personally I would never go to the lengths of prepping by taking out a loan unless it was a necessity now just as much as it would be after the shtf. 


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## cowboyhermit

millertimedoneright said:


> Very true. Just that much more reason to not tie any notes in with collateral.


Also, don't assume that rules for debt collection won't change either. Governments have not been afraid of changing the rules of finance in the past and it is not outside the realm of possibility that they could make things like garnishing wages much easier or even liens on property, heck it is not entirely possible to rule out the return of "debtor's jail" or something similar (in a sense they still haven't even entirely disappeared in many places including the U.S).


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## millertimedoneright

cowboyhermit said:


> Also, don't assume that rules for debt collection won't change either. Governments have not been afraid of changing the rules of finance in the past and it is not outside the realm of possibility that they could make things like garnishing wages much easier or even liens on property, heck it is not entirely possible to rule out the return of "debtor's jail" or something similar (in a sense they still haven't even entirely disappeared in many places including the U.S).


That is always a possibility but in my opinion when the shtf it's gonna hit a reset button for this country. In my opinion getting the bank that 3k you borrowed will be the last thing on anyone's minds.

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----------



## cowboyhermit

millertimedoneright said:


> That is always a possibility but in my opinion when the shtf it's gonna hit a reset button for this country.


That would be convenient for a lot of people, personally I wouldn't bet my life on it. I have too much to lose and too much experience with things going sideways to count on the situation falling apart in a way that can be predicted or that is in any way helpful.


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## millertimedoneright

Like I said earlier if you are worried then don't tie any loans in with collateral that you don't want to lose. I never do and never will. 


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## tsrwivey

SuspectZero said:


> I have a friend that is doing something similar. He is using credit cards to build his preps then plans on defaulting since he believes the gubment will default on its debt making the dollar worthless.


Borrowing without the intent to pay it back if theft, pure & simple. Nothing I hate worse in this world than a thief. He needs to get off his lazy a$$ & work for what he wants, not steal it from other people. IMHO, you need new friends. I sure wouldn't want him in my camp now & definitely not post SHTF.


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## cowboyhermit

millertimedoneright said:


> Like I said earlier if you are worried then don't tie any loans in with collateral that you don't want to lose. I never do and never will.


You seem to have missed my entire point, just because those loans aren't "tied" to specific collateral now doesn't mean that TPTB won't change the rules in the future to allow the debt holder to go after said collateral, or garnish wages, or put you in jail.

If we are willing to accept the idea of a true shtf situation (something that hasn't happened very often through history) we should also consider possibilities that might be more likely (debtor's jails still exist and governments change rules of finance regularly).

Like mentioned before if things went from normal to FUBAR quickly then the gov would have little power or concern for matters of finance (that would likely be left to the debt holder to deal with as they see fit). However, history gives us many more examples of things slipping for awhile before the collapse, in this time govs tend to change the rules with abandon and often still have the authority to enforce them.


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## squerly

cowboyhermit said:


> Like mentioned before if things went from normal to FUBAR quickly then the gov would have little power or concern for matters of finance (that would likely be left to the debt holder to deal with as they see fit). However, history gives us many more examples of things slipping for awhile before the collapse, in this time govs tend to change the rules with abandon and often still have the authority to enforce them.


You should also take into consideration that the lender (regardless of bank or otherwise) will cut their losses and sell your debt to someone else, i.e. a collector of sorts.

In the scenario being discussed, you're going to have enough to worry about without having "less than desirable(s)" showing up at your place of existence to collect on the debt. My guess is it'll cost you some chickens, possibly a goat, but either way you're gonna pay these people.


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## millertimedoneright

My whole point is in a shtf situation my local bank will not have employees to worry about my debt. I prepare for a true shtf situation not a slight recession or depression. I can handle paying my debts in those events do to my electronic assets.(they can't systematically erase my money and expect me to pay them back). If they have records of my loan then they will have records of my money and even if they don't i do. In a shtf people will be worrying about how they are gonna eat and survive not some debt that is owed to them in worthless paper. Even in a recession or depression we(preppers) will turn into the wealthy ones.


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## cowboyhermit

squerly said:


> You should also take into consideration that the lender (regardless of bank or otherwise) will cut their losses and sell your debt to someone else, i.e. a collector of sorts.


Good point, even governments have been known to buy up or take over huge amounts of debt and they have no trouble putting people in jail today for failure to pay, who knows who you could be dealing with.

Governments have also been known to freeze or confiscate bank accounts (ie; Greece). Sure it wouldn't be "fair" to consider a loan under default under such circumstances but...


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## machinist

*Borrow Money?*

We took out an 80% , 20 year mortgage to buy our first homestead farm in 1978. When we inherited half the price of my parents' house, we paid it off 2 years later in 1980. Haven't borrowed for anything but a car loan since, and the last one of those was 15 years ago.

I guess you could call that farm a "prep". That was the idea of it anyway. By the time we paid off the farm, I had logged the place and built a furniture shop there for more income above my day job, so we were in pretty good shape. I had a loan for a Massey 65 tractor for about $2K then, too, but we paid that off when we paid the mortgage.

Today I wouldn't borrow a dime for any reason.


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## tsrwivey

*


millertimedoneright said:



My whole point is in a shtf situation my local bank will not have employees to worry about my debt. I prepare for a true shtf situation not a slight recession or depression. I can handle paying my debts in those events do to my electronic assets.(they can't systematically erase my money and expect me to pay them back).

Click to expand...

*If you have the money sitting in the bank to pay for it, just pay for it. Lord knows you'd pay way more in interest than you're making on a savings account or CD. Seems kinda silly to pay to borrow your own money. There's a lot of possibilities between TEOTWAWKI & a "slight recession" & many of those possibilities can be financially devastating &/or turn even a small amount of debt into a noose around your neck.

*


millertimedoneright said:



Even in a recession or depression we(preppers) will turn into the wealthy ones.

Click to expand...

*Don't bet on it. The powers that be are not as near as clueless about what's going on as some would believe. They generally adjust to change quickly & have what it takes to land on their feet regardless of the situation. There are reasons they are where they are in life.


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## Geek999

I suspect being a prepper has little to do with your level of wealth.


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## Caribou

To me honor has a value and I'll not sell mine. Should I not be able to pay my debts that will bring shame on me. Millertime, I think you are a troll and are just trying to stir things up. I could be wrong and you are just without honor.


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## millertimedoneright

Caribou said:


> To me honor has a value and I'll not sell mine. Should I not be able to pay my debts that will bring shame on me. Millertime, I think you are a troll and are just trying to stir things up. I could be wrong and you are just without honor.


I have more honor in my pinky toe then you have in your entire body. I was giving my opinion on these matters and even stated that I personally wouldn't do this. If you would have actually have went through and looked at the rest of this thread before you opened your mouth you would have known this. I have never failed to repay a debt. I borrow money all the time even if I have the money in the bank for the simple reason that yea I may have to pay interest but I also don't deplete my entire savings. It's about peace of mind. If I go spend 40k on something and then lose my job I have no bills but then I can't afford gas or food for my table. But if I have 40k cash then I have a monthly note but I have time to find another job well before my reserves run out. If I was sitting on a large farm growing my own food and completely self sufficient then I wouldn't have a problem paying cash. Just cuz I'm a prepper doesn't mean I don't also have to live in the world we have currently.

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## Geek999

If you look at preps as insurance, i.e. a way of reducing a risk you can't afford, then you have to consider that the risk you are insuring against does not happen, or something entirely different happens.

If you are planning on a specific scenario, you probably need to take your meds as there is the possibility that things might look quite different. For instance, the idea of taking debt and having it be worth less or uncollectible depends on a scenario of either runaway inflation or not only bankruptcy, but destruction of all bank records. What if we have an economic collapse that looks like the 1930s? That would bring deflation. What if we have failure of the banks, but the government survives enough to transfer all the records to the FDIC and now you simply owe the government instead of the banks?

Anything short of WROL will not expunge your debt and even that might not do it. To take on a debt on the belief that WROL is going to happen is going to feel really dumb if it doesn't happen, or happens right after you go through bankruptcy.


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## helicopter5472

Caribou/Millertime, I don't want to get into this "Honor" thingy fight. The only "honor thingy" I like is..."He" offered is Honor, "She" Honored his Offer, so all nite long it was Honor, Offer...Honor, Offer. 
O.K. I will have to agree with Millertime, most of us don't have the cash to buy large ticket items such as property, tractors ect. Not all of us inherit the farm, and or got lucky in the stock market, or lottery. I'm sure that we all realize the dangers of having debt. A lot of the older folks made a better living some years back than many can make today with the high cost of inflation. The smart ones now live debt free lives and can spend saved money on prep items, gold ect. Many here live paycheck to paycheck which makes it hard to get prep items. With all that's going on in the world everyone is feeling the pressure to be fully prepared for a very likely poor future. As Millertime said, "Just cuz I'm a prepper doesn't mean I don't also have to live in the world we have currently." So we can listen to the good advice from everyone here, but each has a different situation. No one wants to be haunted by bill collectors, or starve to death either. There is some risk for many of us, but we all are trying to limit them to a minimum.

How about this, what would you do... You just got some inside info that was 100% reliable that our current money system was going to collapse, and tomorrow the banks will be closing, you have less than 24 hours. Will you take your cash and pay all current bills, debts or go and get last minute items with the money, and will you use your credit cards to get more. (I know the answer from you folks who have mega bucks stored at home, and have everything paid off.) But barring being able to get large amounts of cash from the bank and or being able to cash in investments, CD's ect. what would you do before the panic starts???


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## myrtle55

I don't know the answer of people with megabucks stored at home. What would they do?


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## Caribou

helicopter5472 said:


> Caribou/Millertime, I don't want to get into this "Honor" thingy fight. The only "honor thingy" I like is..."He" offered is Honor, "She" Honored his Offer, so all nite long it was Honor, Offer...Honor, Offer.
> O.K. I will have to agree with Millertime, most of us don't have the cash to buy large ticket items such as property, tractors ect. Not all of us inherit the farm, and or got lucky in the stock market, or lottery. I'm sure that we all realize the dangers of having debt. A lot of the older folks made a better living some years back than many can make today with the high cost of inflation. The smart ones now live debt free lives and can spend saved money on prep items, gold ect. Many here live paycheck to paycheck which makes it hard to get prep items. With all that's going on in the world everyone is feeling the pressure to be fully prepared for a very likely poor future. As Millertime said, "Just cuz I'm a prepper doesn't mean I don't also have to live in the world we have currently." So we can listen to the good advice from everyone here, but each has a different situation. No one wants to be haunted by bill collectors, or starve to death either. There is some risk for many of us, but we all are trying to limit them to a minimum.
> 
> How about this, what would you do... You just got some inside info that was 100% reliable that our current money system was going to collapse, and tomorrow the banks will be closing, you have less than 24 hours. Will you take your cash and pay all current bills, debts or go and get last minute items with the money, and will you use your credit cards to get more. (I know the answer from you folks who have mega bucks stored at home, and have everything paid off.) But barring being able to get large amounts of cash from the bank and or being able to cash in investments, CD's ect. what would you do before the panic starts???


I have worked with scores of bankrupt individuals. Most were honorable individuals. Some were not, in my estimation. For example, the guy that said, "I have a good job. I could knuckle down and pay everyone, but I don't have to." Then there was the guy that saw the the writing on the wall, cashed everything out and went to Las Vegas. If you can't pay your bills then, oh well, nice try. If your plan is to leave your creditors hanging then that is fraud. Not paying your bills is bad. Not giving it your best effort is less than honorable. Entering into an agreement with plans to defraud is illegal and dishonorable.

If you read my post I said that I felt millertime was trolling us and looking for a reaction. I also remarked that I might be wrong and that dishonor was another possibility. Millertime claims he is honorable and I believe him. He made no denial of being a troll.

As to your scenario. I'd get as much cash as I could. Most of my creditors will take plastic by phone so I'd set the wife to paying them. I'd pay ahead if possible. I'd pay the credit card by phone and even put extra on it. Then I'd go buy my last minute purchases using the card as much as possible. If I ran over my prepayment I would make an additional payment by phone that night.


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## TheLazyL

helicopter5472 said:


> ...How about this, what would you do... You just got some inside info that was 100% reliable that our current money system was going to collapse, and tomorrow the banks will be closing, you have less than 24 hours. ...


...100% reliable... :scratch

401K and other long term financial investments would be toast. Impossible to liquidate them within a 24 hour period.

Savings would be withdrawn from the bank and spent on consumables.

I would not pay in advance on any prior loan obligations.

Making credit card purchase knowing in advance that there would be no means to pay back would be (to me) unethical. I plan my preps so I don't have to face this choice.


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## helicopter5472

Oh I know...reliable...  but lets just say...

I would do the same, I just want to hear what others would do. How many will or would use their credit cards, a check (if they exist) to gain items, food ect. The last shot at it in the civilized times....


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## myrtle55

I would go buy what I could with the cash I have stashed..period


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## Tirediron

this has kind of gone off the rails, but if you thought something was up and you had the opportunity to buy usefull stuff with your credit card and didn't because you might not be able to pay it back because the system failed, not because you intend to commit fraud. Not getting the things you could use or need is kind of like shooting your self in the foot, or more like not killing a deer to feed your starving family because you don't have a tag.


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## millertimedoneright

Okay dokey


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## Country Living

Caribou said:


> <snip>As to your scenario. I'd get as much cash as I could. Most of my creditors will take plastic by phone so I'd set the wife to paying them. I'd pay ahead if possible. I'd pay the credit card by phone and even put extra on it. Then I'd go buy my last minute purchases using the card as much as possible. If I ran over my prepayment I would make an additional payment by phone that night.


I'd pay current plus two years on the property taxes (and get a receipt) in hopes of keeping the carpetbaggers away. I'd hit the ATM and get out as much cash as possible. I also would buy any last minute purchases using my card as much as possible AND log online to pay the entire credit card. That way nothing is hanging over me and people to whom I owe money get paid.



millertimedoneright said:


> You have forgot that everyone one here will do the honorable thing. This forum has nothing but the people with the highest sense of honor and morals. I would bet my paycheck every single one of those saying they would use every last dime to pay off their debts would go on a vast spending spree and collect mountains of debt if they truly had 24 hours of warning. None of us have everything we need. Even the well prepared would get more of everything and pick up a few luxury items. And the one guy expects us to believe he would not only pay off his debts but pay extra. Lmmmfao hahahahahaha. Remember part of being honorable is being honest.


Some of us simply have different values than you just as our definition of "honor" and "honorable" is different than yours.


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## Caribou

“Rationalization is a process of not perceiving reality, but of attempting to make reality fit one’s emotions.” 
― Ayn Rand


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## millertimedoneright

Country Living said:


> I'd pay current plus two years on the property taxes (and get a receipt) in hopes of keeping the carpetbaggers away. I'd hit the ATM and get out as much cash as possible. I also would buy any last minute purchases using my card as much as possible AND log online to pay the entire credit card. That way nothing is hanging over me and people to whom I owe money get paid.
> 
> Some of us simply have different values than you just as our definition of "honor" and "honorable" is different than yours.


Oh I know y'all would always do the right thing. That has been said a thousand times by a few individuals on here but saying something and living it are different things. I could come on here and tell everyone how I would be the perfect saint during and after an event but the fact is no one knows how they would react. Someone could scrape by on what they already have but most would go all out if they had initial warning. With warning people could stock up on enough supplies to save several individuals using non existing electronic currency or credit cards. So is honor paying a billion dollar corporation your "debt" that won't even exist come tomorrow or helping save many many lives? Is it honorable to keep this information to yourself with so many millions being unprepared knowing that you keeping quiet could cost so many people their lives? In my opinion "honor" comes in many different forms. If I "steal" from a corporation today that won't exist tomorrow and use the supplies I gather to save lives is that honorable or dishonorable? I believe it's the intent of the person and not the deeds that a man is to be judged by.

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## LongRider

hashbrown said:


> Prepping will only get you a few months down the road. I would never borrow money for that.... Prep what you can and work on your survival skills. Figure out where the closest spring you can drink from is buy a few steel traps and learn how to use them and maybe buy a 22. If you are planning for the sthf most can't afford to prep for a lifetime but they can gain the skill to survive.


Only a few months down the road? Really?

I began prepping since 1973 or 75, when I buried my first cache. In addition to a BA I have taken courses in small engine repair, auto mechanics, welding, sheet metal, carpentry, wood working, animal husbandry, horticulture, first aid, EMT, self defense, firearms, archery and every other skill I think I need to survive. I survival camp, hiked the pacific trail, hunt, fish, harvest wild edible & medicinal plants. I sold my business over a decade ago for enough cash to last a life time. Have zero debt, everything I own I own outright, having paid cash for most of it. We bought property up on the military crest of hill a bit under two miles up dirt road that is easily defensible. We have invested a decade in making our home a comfortable secure place capable of sustaining us comfortably no matter what happens in the world around us. Our home has fertile soil that is increasingly providing us with all the food we need, with years of food stored, beans and rice alone will last us a decade. An infinite water supply, years worth of firewood and fuel stored. Soon we will be producing enough electricity to last us forever. Ample guns accumulated over three generations and three wars. Ammo, reloading supplies dies, for 45/70, 308, 223, 30/30, 306, .45, 9mm, .380, and .22. Powder, bullets for each to last several life times. Wood, metal, machinist, carpentry, plumbing, welding, electrical tools machines, equipment. Sheds filled with building supplies, stores of nails, screws, pipes, hangers, etc. Spare parts and replacements for every piece of equipment. Our 922,561 acre back yard (aka a national park our property adjoins) provides an infinite supply of, berries, game animals, medicinal and edible plants, mushrooms, fish, shell fish far to many to list. Please explain to my dumb ass how our preps will only last a few months. Since I have been under the delusion that we are close to being able survive forever of grid if need be. Which is what I believe the OP is striving to achieve.



Caribou said:


> "Rationalization is a process of not perceiving reality, but of attempting to make reality fit one's emotions."
> ― Ayn Rand


From the movie The Big Chill


> Michael: I don't know anyone who could get through the day without two or three juicy rationalizations. They're more important than sex.
> Sam Weber: Ah, come on. Nothing's more important than sex.
> Michael: Oh yeah? Ever gone a week without a rationalization?


I've always found that to be pretty true



millertimedoneright said:


> I believe it's the intent of the person and not the deeds that a man is to be judged by.


I have always lived by the exact opposite. The best intention in the world mean nothing if you do not live by them. Intentions are meaningless action and the result of those actions is all that counts. As an example a man is drowning, I can intend on saving him, I can plan on saving him, I can even try to save him and he will drown. He only live if my actions save him.


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## labotomi

millertimedoneright said:


> Oh I know y'all would always do the right thing. That has been said a thousand times by a few individuals on here but saying something and living it are different things. I could come on here and tell everyone how I would be the perfect saint during and after an event but the fact is no one knows how they would react. Someone could scrape by on what they already have but most would go all out if they had initial warning. With warning people could stock up on enough supplies to save several individuals using non existing electronic currency or credit cards. So is honor paying a billion dollar corporation your "debt" that won't even exist come tomorrow or helping save many many lives? Is it honorable to keep this information to yourself with so many millions being unprepared knowing that you keeping quiet could cost so many people their lives? In my opinion "honor" comes in many different forms. If I "steal" from a corporation today that won't exist tomorrow and use the supplies I gather to save lives is that honorable or dishonorable? I believe it's the intent of the person and not the deeds that a man is to be judged by.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


Intent is key as you state. I intend to honor my obligations up until the point that I cannot.

I would never rationalize dishonesty. If it's stealing now, it'll be stealing then, If it's murder now, it'll be murder then etc. etc.


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