# Caliber question.



## Magus

How effective is the .223/5.56 on medium game such as deer or feral hogs?
Anybody use it for light hunting etc?


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## Caribou

I can't speak to hogs but the .223 is fine for deer. Like any round, shot placement is the key. I prefer the 30 calibre, anything from 30-30 to 30.06 or equivalent, but the fast light weight bullets will get the job done.


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## ZoomZoom

Here in PA you're normally looked down upon for using such a small caliber on deer (but we have some decent sized deer). Our kids and wives use at least a .243 but reach for a 30-06 or similar if they can handle it.

With perfect shot placement you could drop a deer but you'll most likely be tracking that deer for very long distances before it finally falls.


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## Woody

A previous neighbor here in NC took two deer every year with a bolt action 22, iron sights. One shot. One shot for each one at different times that is. Granted this was sitting on his back porch and the shot was maybe 60' to 75' but still, one shot with a 22 LR.


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## Caribou

Woody said:


> A previous neighbor here in NC took two deer every year with a bolt action 22, iron sights. One shot. One shot for each one at different times that is. Granted this was sitting on his back porch and the shot was maybe 60' to 75' but still, one shot with a 22 LR.


A friend of mine took caribou (no relation) regularly with a single shot from a .22. He got up close and personal. He could afford the .22's. No, it was not legal but his family ate.

The one hog I shot took three shots to the head with a .357 at close range.


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## hiwall

The 223 will take deer but you will have to pick your shots. It is commonly used in some areas. Not all states allow the use of 223 so you might want to check your state regs for legal calibers for big game. My choice would maybe be something a little bigger but I would use the 223 if that is all I had.


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## helicopter5472

Keep that 30 round clip handy for that feral hog...


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## millertimedoneright

All I use is a .223 for hogs. Like they said shot placement is key. I have dropped 275 pound hogs in their tracks but I have also had to track one that was around 150 pounds for over a mile. Let me tell you tracking a wounded hog on foot through his territory is about as scary as it gets. When hunting with dogs we use either a .22 or knives. Deer hunting I use my 30-06. 


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## Sentry18

I agree with hiwall. I have taken deer before with the 5.56mm, but good shot placement is a must. Some of the more modern bullets / loads have improved the .223/5.56mm considerably in recent years.

I don't hunt deer with centerfire rounds anymore preferring instead to use muzzleloaders. Shoot a large deer with a .58 cal 555 grain Thompson Center maxi-ball behind 95 grains of pyrodex and your days of following blood trails are over.


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## CrackbottomLouis

Longest shot ive taken with 5.56 on a deer was 250 meters. Worked just fine. Never used that round for hog before.


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## TheLazyL

Magus said:


> How effective is the .223/5.56 on medium game such as deer or feral hogs?
> Anybody use it for light hunting etc?


I believe a 5.56 is meant to neutralize a human. Human weights 180 to 250 pounds?

Whitetail deer 130 to 300 pounds?

Feral Hog 110 to 200 pounds?

I'll agree with Sentry on this one. Larger the caliber the better.


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## Sentry18

I have always believed that the 5.56mm was a terminal roll of the dice. If it kills a man, he is out of the fight. If it wounds a man, he is out of the fight and perhaps his buddy too. Win-Win. If it was all about killing the military would have never given up on the 7.62. Even the US Army said (a couple years ago) that if the enemy combatant did not go down after one shot, to shoot him again. Military logic at it's finest. Now sure how all that applies to deer and hogs, but I bet there is some valid info in there somewhere.


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## Magus

The reason I'm asking is I'm getting too "frail" to pack my beloved 308 and 7.62X39 looks more and more like an endangered species IF we have another libtarded regime.
223 is my only other option.


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## camo2460

I had a buddy years ago that took several Deer per year with a .22.He shot them in the neck and severed the Spine. I think that you will do just fine with the .223/5.56. As for Hogs I probably would go with a larger caliber, but on the other hand, I've seen them taken with throwing knives, so pick your poison, either way you you'll do fine.


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## mojo4

With the .223 the rounds are usually very accurate. With a heavier grain like a 62 HP load you can put it pretty much anywhere you want. I have never shot a hog (wish we had hog infestation here in Colorado!!!) but a relative has taken numerous hogs with his. He always does a head shot and says they drop right away. His hogs never break 200 pounds so I wouldn't use it for hogzilla! We aren't allowed to use that round for deer here either so only second hand info here but if anyone has hog problems I will gladly volunteer for more research into this noble query!


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## Magus

South GA is eat up with them, last I looked there was a bounty too.

EDIT:
Bounty's closed. still pretty much open season for residents.
I love wild boar myself..


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## millertimedoneright

We are infested with hogs. I trap them and run them with dogs. I have friends that people call and pay them to remove hogs. I will also shoot the occasional one off my deer stand if the freezer is getting bare. The ones I trap I cut and fatten up in a hog pen before taking the meat.


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## LincTex

Hog Hunt With Airgun HD - GAMO Hunter Extreme .25 caliber






Hog Hunting with Gamo Hunter Extreme Air Rifle






Hog Hunting with Gamo Hunter Extreme .22 Air Rifle - One of the Fastest Air Rifles in The World


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## Dakine

Caribou said:


> The one hog I shot took three shots to the head with a .357 at close range.


you need to hit a vital organ, I don't think the head counts on hogs!


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## millertimedoneright

Only a few spots on the head is worth even trying. I have skinned out hogs and found multiple large caliber rifle bullets attached to the skull and even some just under the skin that didn't even penetrate. 


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## Caribou

Dakine said:


> you need to hit a vital organ, I don't think the head counts on hogs!


So, for someone who obviously doesn't know, where are the best shot placements on a hog?


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## Viking

.22 center fire is allowed for deer here in Oregon. I shot a deer with a Mini 14 years ago right between the eyes at 100 yards and when I went to pick up the deer with an antler I found that the whole skull was shattered. A shot placed in the neck joint or between the eyes is the only way I will shoot them anymore, I hate wasting any meat. Once I started shooting them that way I also found that they dropped where they stood. As to wild hogs, we just don't have them around at our elevation and I've not heard of them being in S.W. Oregon. We have a lot of bear around but I don't think I'd want to try shooting them with a .223, you really don't want to piss one of those guys off by wounding them, that's not to say that a .223 couldn't kill them but you had better be able to place the shot perfectly.


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## LincTex

Caribou said:


> So, for someone who obviously doesn't know, where are the best shot placements on a hog?


http://hunting.about.com/od/deerbiggame/a/wheretoshoothog.htm

http://www.wildhoghunters.com/hog-hunting/868-best-shot-placement-decision-quick-death.html

http://www.texasboars.com/anatomy.html

http://www.skinnymoose.com/hogblog/...ment-on-hogs-arguments-against-the-head-shot/

http://www.chuckhawks.com/feral_hog_cartridges.htm


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## Moby76065

Magus said:


> How effective is the .223/5.56 on medium game such as deer or feral hogs?
> Anybody use it for light hunting etc?


I just put up a post on my first Hog hunt.
They will not allow .223. Not enough knock down power for larger hogs.

Good for piglets however. Their experience is that anything over 100 lbs without perfect shot placement doesn't get the job done. A head shot however on most anything short of bear will always work.

I prefer .308 as an all around larger game rifle.


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## Magus

I love my 308's however between weight and recoil on my crappy health, its time for something a bit lighter.
I really miss my 300 Magnum though. nothing says awesome like a shockwave!


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## ZoomZoom

I didn't recall it being mentioned but you may want to check on the legality of hunting with a semi-auto rifle. In our State, they're not allowed on deer.


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## hiwall

> they're not allowed on deer.


Many states have mag capacity rules also


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## machinist

I don't see any problem taking deer with a .223, but like several others said, use a head shot. 

For hogs, I'd want something heavier because they are so MEAN! And that head bounces up and down when they run. For hog hunting, I want a 12 gauge with slugs and a proper slug barrel with sights. Hit him most anywhere with that thing and he'll lose interest in whatever he had in mind. 

FWIW, back when elephant hunters used the .500 Nitro express in a double rifle, the gun bearer was the hunter's backup. If the elephant didn't go down from the rifle shots, the gun bearer used---a 12 gauge shotgun with slugs. He aimed for a knee. They can't charge on 3 legs.

You put a 1 1/4 ounce slug in a hog's head and he will probably drop. And you REALLY want him to drop.

Yeah, I have killed hogs for meat at home with a .22 LR. I prefer at least a .357. The last one we butchered I had loaded some .38 SPL with 150 gr. Sierra hollow points and a compressed load of Blue dot. They clocked around  1,250 FPS out of my 4" S & W. Shot the hog in the curly spot between the eyes. I found the slug 3" above his front knee. It had expanded to the size of a nickel. He dropped like a stone, but the placement was perfect.

The last I heard, slaughter houses use a sledge hammer and hit where the curly spot is. By contrast, a friend of mine went hog hunting in northern Florida and it took 4 rounds from a .44 Mag to drop a boar. The shot placement was off.


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## cowboyhermit

Did you consider anything in between or is a non-military (surplus) caliber out of the question?

There are quite a few calibers in the middle ground between the .223 and the .308 that have good points. For instance .243 is the minimum for big game up here and it is a pretty decent round imo, a lot of small guys and girls use them and it can even do a decent job on moose or elk if careful. IMO it is a more versatile cartridge, especially in terms of bullet sizes available (something like 50gr to 100gr) it is a great varmint gun and a decent big game round with over 2000ftlbs as opposed to the over 1000 of a .223 (still a lot less than the .308). It also has a decent effective range.

.243 is just the most common up here though, there are a lot in between those calibers, of course you can't get surplus ammo but if it's for hunting :dunno: gotta buy expanding bullets for that anyways. Something like the 6.8 spc still has a lot of potential though, imho.


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## HardCider

The .243 and the .270 are both awesome rounds. I mostly shoot a 30 06 and .54 cal. muzzleloader now. But if I really want to flatten something I go with 12 gauge slugs


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## cowboyhermit

The .270 is still my favorite all around hunting gun, whether it's partially nostalgia or it just fits my situation :dunno: I have taken more coyotes, deer and moose with it. The only thing is, it really doesn't kick any less than the .308 and the longer round means you aren't going to find a lot of light guns in it, even if you wanted to.


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## Caribou

cowboyhermit said:


> The .270 is still my favorite all around hunting gun, whether it's partially nostalgia or it just fits my situation :dunno: I have taken more coyotes, deer and moose with it. The only thing is, it really doesn't kick any less than the .308 and the longer round means you aren't going to find a lot of light guns in it, even if you wanted to.


The Model 70 Featherweight in .270 is light (+-7#) and doesn't kick much.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/catalog/detail.asp?family=001C&mid=535200


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## Viking

hiwall said:


> Many states have mag capacity rules also


It's been awhile since I've checked the regs here in Oregon but I think it about five, maybe six, but that could be with one in the chamber.


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## Wanderer0101

The .223 will work but bullet selection and shot placement are critical and even so it's less than ideal. I was raised to put the biggest possible hole in things but as I get older I have to admit that I would prefer to avoid recoil and high carry weights as much as possible. I'm actually about to buy a .257 Roberts for most of my hunting. It doesn't fit in with my ammo storage but I've already got lots of stored ammo so adding an adequate number of rounds for practice and hunting will be OK. You might also consider the .260 Remington or one of the 6mms. I don't particularly like the .243.


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## LincTex

Wanderer0101 said:


> I'm actually about to buy a .257 Roberts for most of my hunting. It doesn't fit in with my ammo storage... I don't particularly like the .243.


Never heard of it. Everyone compares it to a .243



> "splitting hairs, there isn't enough difference between the three: 257 Roberts vs. 25-06 vs. 270 WIN ..."


http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-369986.html

http://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/257-roberts-vs-243.74576/

http://www.chuckhawks.com/25caliber_cartridges.htm

http://www.shootersforum.com/rifles-rifle-cartridges/72726-257-roberts-vs-25-06-vs-270-win.html


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## Wanderer0101

LincTex said:


> Never heard of it. Everyone compares it to a .243
> 
> http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-369986.html
> 
> http://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/257-roberts-vs-243.74576/
> 
> http://www.chuckhawks.com/25caliber_cartridges.htm
> 
> http://www.shootersforum.com/rifles-rifle-cartridges/72726-257-roberts-vs-25-06-vs-270-win.html


With the .257 you can use heavier bullets and you also get better long range performance. It handily covers everything from antelope to mule deer and is deadly on varmints with the lighter weight bullets. Lots of elk have been killed with the .257 but you do have to be careful about shot selection. Very mild in both report and recoil, works well from shorter barreled rifles.


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## readytogo

Magus said:


> I love my 308's however between weight and recoil on my crappy health, its time for something a bit lighter.
> I really miss my 300 Magnum though. nothing says awesome like a shockwave!


The Savage Bolt Action 25 Varminter at 6.9 pounds is it too much for you?


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## Magus

I'm a fan of 7.62X39 in brush, I guess there will be hunting ammo out there a bit longer.
good old 30-30 works too but I'm basically wanting a do-all or as close as I can get.


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## phicks36420

I really like the 7.62X39 I have a SKS and I built a AR 15 in 7.62, Also built one in 5.56 & 223.
I had a loading problem with the 7.62 but I changed out the springs using AK springs. I lost about 4 rounds in a 30 round mag but know more feeding trouble.
I machines out the lowers but you have to be on the ball one little mistake and its trash.(Don't ask me how I know).
As for hogs we have a bounty of them here in lower Alabama, And its always open season on them.
Deer a can get in the back yard, How ever I prefer to watch them now. But if need be they will feed us.

Paul


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## readytogo

Winchester m70 featherweight,ns,308,6 lbs 12 oz


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## 220combat

The OP failed to mention in the original post, WHY the .223/5.56 was a consideration. 

If hes looking to use a caliber that he already has in his arsenal, then that caliber WILL WORK with proper bullet selection and shot placement. 

If hes looking for an ideal 1 caliber gun to use for multiple game species, then I would have to direct the OP to the .270WIN or .30-06SPG. Both calibers are capable of taking most any medium/large game in North America, (I'd prefer a much larger caliber for the large bears). Both calibers are available in a huge selection of bullet designs and weights, and ammo for both is available in every little gun shop everywhere in the Country. 

The .223/5.56 was designed to take the enemy out of the fight, not to kill. If the enemy is injured, then enemy resources are tied up tending to the wounded, making those other enemy resources unable to fight back. 1 wounded soldier removes 2-3 or more from the fight.


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## hiwall

220combat here was why he was asking....................



> The reason I'm asking is I'm getting too "frail" to pack my beloved 308 and 7.62X39 looks more and more like an endangered species IF we have another libtarded regime.
> 223 is my only other option.


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## 220combat

hiwall said:


> 220combat here was why he was asking....................


Got it. I read through a bunch of the following replies, yet I must have missed that that reply was his, with his reasoning.


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## bushcraft_halbritter

I use a 7.62x54r for all medium game an the 7.62x54r armor piercing could crack the hard skull of a hog


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## Dakine

Caribou said:


> The Model 70 Featherweight in .270 is light (+-7#) and doesn't kick much.
> 
> http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/catalog/detail.asp?family=001C&mid=535200


You can also consider the Ruger American Rifle in .270 and it weighs in at 6.25 lbs per their website.

http://www.ruger.com/products/americanRifle/models.html

That new rifle design of theirs has been very popular.


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## Dakine

Another thing to consider, this appears to be a very comprehensive discussion of long range shooting, and in episodes 2 and 3 he discusses using facts to determine the caliber you want to choose. Here's the link to Episode 2






But if you like that, you may want to back up and watch the first one as well just so you get to start from the very beginning.


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## hiwall

An old rule of thumb for whether a cartridge is a capable deer load is that it should produce 1000 ft/lbs of energy at the striking distance. With the right bullets a 223 does this out to about 200 yards.


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## Dakine

hiwall said:


> An old rule of thumb for whether a cartridge is a capable deer load is that it should produce 1000 ft/lbs of energy at the striking distance. With the right bullets a 223 does this out to about 200 yards.


did you mean 100 lbs of foot force? At 200 yds a civilian accessible round isnt even producing 2/3 of that and problems get harder FAST loading bigger bullets into .223 because if you want to really send the love with 70+ grains bullet, you run out of room for the powder from what I've read.

I've pulled and stored this graph locally but it was originally in a post on ar15.com

1000 ft lbs of energy falls off the chart... immediately after sending the bullet downrange


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## hiwall

No it is 1000 ft/lbs. There are scores of loads to choose from. Here is one. But there are many bullet weights to choose from and in a deer load I would go a little heavier - maybe 62 to 70 grain bullets.

Bullet Weight: 53 Grains.
Bullet Ballistic Coeffecient: .290.
Bullet Energy:

Muzzle 100 yds. 200 yds
1,413 1,135 906 FT. LBS.

Hornady, 223 Rem., Superformance, 53 Grain V-Max Bullet
Or look here...........
http://www.hornady.com/store/223-Rem-68-gr-BTHP-Match/


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## Dakine

hiwall said:


> No it is 1000 ft/lbs. There are scores of loads to choose from. Here is one. But there are many bullet weights to choose from and in a deer load I would go a little heavier - maybe 62 to 70 grain bullets.
> 
> Bullet Weight: 53 Grains.
> Bullet Ballistic Coeffecient: .290.
> Bullet Energy:
> 
> Muzzle 100 yds. 200 yds
> 1,413 1,135 906 FT. LBS.
> 
> Hornady, 223 Rem., Superformance, 53 Grain V-Max Bullet
> Or look here...........
> http://www.hornady.com/store/223-Rem-68-gr-BTHP-Match/


Unless I've missed something...

Magus wants readily available ammo and rifle for going walk-about while the PAW blossoms.

You're showing us stats:
from a hand picked NEVER available caliber / bullet weight on civilian shelves.
from one of the premier ammo manufactures... they do not make junk, but that doesn't make it affordable or "find-able"
Also, you're making a apples and oranges statement on comparing 53 and 68 grain projectiles, they are not the same.

and by the way, are you really asking Magus or anyone else to go try and buy those Hornady 68gr bullets off the shelf? do you want to depend on "unicorns" that should be out there, or ammo you can really shoot?

If you can buy that off the shelf at your local wallyworld by all means please post pic's... I don't think those rounds are going to be very easy to find or affordable if you do find them.

Did you get a look at that BCE?? .35 really? I guess I could try to punt clay bricks into someone's backyard and hope it kills one of their chickens when it lands on them but pulling the trigger on something about as aerodynamic on one of those bricks and assuming it's going to do what I want it to, IF... IF... I can find it on the shelves to buy it, and train with it...

I personally do not find the .223/5.56 a favorable round for Magus' scenario, and I'd encourage everyone to think about what the end game is with that caliber. Utility, Cost, Availability; unless I've mistaken his post.

If someone already HAS .223/5.56 and has NO money for any other gun, I'd absolutely leverage that, including specialized loads like that round you quoted above, but that means networking and find friends, and BUYING the reload materials..

as opposed to buying a box of .270 off the shelf and calling a day...


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## oldvet

Magus, I haven't read every post in this thread, so I don't know if anyone has said this, but here goes. I use my AR (.223) for Deer and Hogs, *HEAD SHOTS!*

I have yet to find a recipe for cooking antlers or skulls, so why not head shots if you are able to make them.

It's a win-win all the way, because 99.9% of the time the animal will drop where it stands (no suffering) and no meat is messed up.


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## hiwall

Dakine, we are not disagreeing! I was just showing that you could find or load 223 that would meet that old rule. Like I stated before I am not in favor of using the 223 for deer even though many many deer are shot with them every year. Just look at all the deer that have been shot with with the incredibly weak 410 slug, sure it can be done but the risk of wounding is high. As for those that say take head shots, sure it would lead to a one shot kill if you can hit the the spot the size of a snuff can. I have seen a deer with the jaw shot off that someone missed while taking a head shot. That deer was still alive but faced a lingering death. There is another old saying--Use enough gun.


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## Dakine

I heard a very similar story somewhere about an elk a guy shot and spent a couple days trying to track it to put it down but never found it and it haunted him the rest of his days.

I have a box of Sierra MK that are 69gr HPBT that I've wanted to try to work up some custom heavy loads but I have two concerns. One is that I dont really have a way to measure energy, I can make some ballistic gel to capture a shot and see effects of weight and also use my chrono to add more data on muzzle velocity but for me thats still just going to be WAG on what the energy at target is, unless someone knows a poor mans way to accurately gauge that??

My other concern is that I'll really LIKE the heavy load .223 and then I wont be able to shoot the store bought stuff anymore and I'll have to use the heavier spendier 69gr bullets all the time


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## hiwall

Here is a bullet energy calculator 
http://www.firearmexpertwitness.com/customguns/calcnrg.html


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## Viking

oldvet said:


> Magus, I haven't read every post in this thread, so I don't know if anyone has said this, but here goes. I use my AR (.223) for Deer and Hogs, *HEAD SHOTS!*
> 
> I have yet to find a recipe for cooking antlers or skulls, so why not head shots if you are able to make them.
> 
> It's a win-win all the way, because 99.9% of the time the animal will drop where it stands (no suffering) and no meat is messed up.


I mentioned this awhile back, I hated wasting good venison or elk and so I worked on pinpointing my shots to neck joint or right between the eyes, if I couldn't get a clear shot for this I just let the animal go on. Ideally, if I could catch an animal bedded down that would be the best, absolutely no adrenalin in their system, no bitterness to the meat or other hormonal tastes due to flight reaction. I also never shot a running deer or elk for that reason, it's amazing how tender and flavorful the meat is when it is done this way. As to caliber, I have always liked big bore stuff, .45 Long Colt, 44 mag., 30-06, and for a short while I owned a Ruger #1 in .458 Winchester mag. but I've shot deer with .223 and .25-06. Overall I've probably put more venison in the freezer with my 44 mag. Redhawk but I would never be afraid to take them with a .223


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## Magus

Just when I was debating one of those gee whiz comps for my FAL, I get a straight answer! LMAO
If a 223 will stop a Texas hawg, it'll stop pretty much anything we have in this area!

Headshots are how I roll too.


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## musketjim

LincTex said:


> Hog Hunt With Airgun HD - GAMO Hunter Extreme .25 caliber
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hog Hunting with Gamo Hunter Extreme .22 Air Rifle - One of the Fastest Air Rifles in The World


Just bought a .22 air rifle. We don't have hogs up here but plenty of rabbits, birds, squirrels and coyotes. Can't wait to try it out.


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## Magus

Coyotes rolled back into the hood again last night.looks like it's 10/22 time.
@$#$%$#@ Mud dawgs!


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## HardCider

A 22lr or airgun is a little light for yotes but than again it's the weapon of choice for deer poachers so it would work with great shot placement. About 30 years ago, I was stalking up on a herd of deer in the WV mountains with my bow, I still had about 30 yards to go when I caught movement right out in front of me. It was a hillbilly with a 22lr. He didn't even know I was right behind him. He eased up and dumped a big doe with a head shot between the eyes. I just sank down in the grass and let him grab his deer and move on. At that point, I was more worried about him panicking. Never bring a bow to a gun fight. By the way, is a 10/22 awesome or what


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## PurpleHeartJarhead

hiwall said:


> sure it can be done but the risk of wounding is high. As for those that say take head shots, sure it would lead to a one shot kill* if you can hit the the spot the size of a snuff can.*


Absolutely AGREE!! The reality is, no matter what most profess, most hunters cannot consistently make this shot. I'm not calling anyone out in this forum, I am just stating fact and experience. There's a whole lot that goes into making a shot in a target of this size and most people do not have the training to understand it. And that is before you even talk about distances beyond 100 yards.

In my opinion, there is little cogent argument for taking a head shot on a deer regardless of caliber.



> I have seen a deer with the jaw shot off that someone missed while taking a head shot. That deer was still alive but faced a lingering death. There is another old saying--Use enough gun.


As have I, and it is sad. My best friend put one down two years ago, in the name of mercy. I've also come across carcasses like this in the field and you know not only did the animal die in pain, but died also starving.

I have been a competitive shooter as well as an extremely proficient infantry Marine rifleman, having qualified 17 times an expert and earning a Distinguished Shooting Badge while a member of USMC shooting teams. It's easy to post ballistic data and talk about energy and velocities. It's another thing entirely to have been taught, understand and apply the fundamentals of marksmanship; what a cold bore zero is; down/up angle deflections; minute of angle (MOA) calculations; what the MOA accuracy of one's weapon, scope and their combination is; gravitational and rotational effects on distance shooting; and much more.

Again, in no way am I calling anyone out in this forum; I am simply stating some factual information and opinions derived from many years of shooting which I offer as anecdotal evidence. I have seen exponentially more people make claims of high shooting skill than those who actually possess it.

Making a shot inside a roughly 2-1/2" diameter target with consistency is challenging. When hunting for food, the heart-lung shot is the best and most humane shot to take. You _*might*_ have to walk a little bit, but the truth is, a clean heart-lung shot will not have an animal such as a whitetail deer running for miles and miles. The instances where that may happen are by far the exception and were likely not clean heart-lung shots.

*As to the original post*...sir the .223 is a light-weight cartridge and when paired with M16/AR platform, is a very light, capable and accurate weapon/caliber combo with adequate power to put down any whitetail deer at ranges to 150 yards with little effort when zeroed properly.


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## Magus

I've "played" with a few A2s before, but you sound like you know a bit more than me when it comes to the usefulness if the round as a deer caliber,
Locally our deer seldom get over 150 Lbs dressed, where would be a good secondary shot area? would a heart/lung shot with a 5.56 take one down without having to run all over NGa?

I'm still thinking of putting a brake on my 308 or 8mm.


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## PurpleHeartJarhead

Magus said:


> Locally our deer seldom get over 150 Lbs dressed, where would be a good secondary shot area?


This is a tricky question to answer without getting back into my previous comments about skill. It largely has to do with *your *ability however.

If you have properly zeroed your .223 weapon, and can consistently hit a 3" circle at 100 yards, say at a rate of 80-90%, then this gets easier.

If you want more specifics on the zero process, send me a PM and I will provide more info. I certainly don't want to insult you by going into detail you may not require.

So, once you know you are in the 3" circle at 100 yards with regularity, if you have no heart-lung shot, the only other I would take, and only if it was my only option, would be the neck/skull pivot. In such a case, I would only do so if the animal was largely broadside and I would attempt to get it to turn its head toward my muzzle so I could focus on the white of the neck. Aiming below the chin, your round has a very high probability of striking the spine at or near the base of the skull, also penetrating the trachea, causing it to also bleed into the lungs.

If your shot is low, and from an elevated stand in particular, trajectory (down angle deflection) will likely cause the wound channel to be directed toward the top end of the lungs. This also exposes the carotid/aorta vessels which are also potential impact areas for bullet drift/aiming errors.

If your shot is high, you will of course have a high probability of a strike to the skull, and a frontal head shot on a deer is far more likely to result in immediate death than one taken with the animals head presented to the shooter from profile.



Magus said:


> would a heart/lung shot with a 5.56 take one down without having to run all over NGa?


Absolutely. The nice thing is about getting proficient with a 3" group is that about covers the mass of a deer's heart. If you truly understand the anatomy of a deer, refining your shooting technique to this standard will result in a blown out heart more often than not. I've never had to track a deer more than 200 yards under those circumstances. Most often, they go down where hit when their heart is gone. (Of course exceptions apply to every rule, this is only my experience.)



Magus said:


> I'm still thinking of putting a brake on my 308 or 8mm.


I am assuming you are talking about a muzzle brake; my apologies, I didn;t read every post. If this is the case, do your homework! Not all brakes are created equally, and many are little more than Gucci-flage accessories.

Ultimately, what is important to remember about the 5.56 is this. It was designed to create maximum damage in a small package. It was designed to do this on humans, but deer are similarly sized as humans, so it will work equally well, if not a little better on them.

The .223 is NOT exactly the same as 5.56, hence the variety of civilian loads in this cartridge, while there only being 1 widely used round for military use. However, the heavier civilian loads and moderately lower velocities and remain extremely effective out to 150 yards for the average meat-hunter looking for venison.

If you truly have a need for longer range shots, I would recommend a bolt gun platform and moving up to a .243-.270 caliber range. Still very effective, less punishing and lighter than .308/8mm.


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## Magus

I refuse to shoot at anything game wise out past 100 yards, I'm a freak like that. ran over too many gut shot deer in my lifetime.
Do they still make saboted accelerator rounds? I haven't seen any in ages.Made my old M1A feel like a 243!
More importantly, does anyone make reloading kits for them?
I've decided to go for the lighter weight and recoil of the 5.56/223 due to my health going to hell
and I've kind of zeroed in[pun intended] on the AR platform as my "Monkey wrench" rifle for the B.O.B
I really hate to start adding new equipment at this stage in the game OR start budgeting in new calibers.
IF I was only hunting, I'd probably use my old 94 Winchester, it's quite adequate for the local fare,
BUT NOT adequate for looters n such.


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## Viking

Magus said:


> I refuse to shoot at anything game wise out past 100 yards, I'm a freak like that. ran over too many gut shot deer in my lifetime.
> Do they still make saboted accelerator rounds? I haven't seen any in ages.Made my old M1A feel like a 243!
> More importantly, does anyone make reloading kits for them?
> I've decided to go for the lighter weight and recoil of the 5.56/223 due to my health going to hell
> and I've kind of zeroed in[pun intended] on the AR platform as my "Monkey wrench" rifle for the B.O.B
> I really hate to start adding new equipment at this stage in the game OR start budgeting in new calibers.
> IF I was only hunting, I'd probably use my old 94 Winchester, it's quite adequate for the local fare,
> BUT NOT adequate for looters n such.


The furthest I've ever shot an animal is about 125 yards, most I've gotten between 50 and 100 feet. Most of the areas around here are trees, underbrush, mountains and valleys, not a lot of long range shooting can even be done. Over the years I've learned to walk as quietly as possible because of these conditions and a few times when a deer hasn't caught wind of me I have walked within 15 to 20 feet of them. I've pretty much learned to pick my shots rather than getting all excited and doing quick shots, buck fever can push a person to do that, especially when a big buck with awesome antlers shows up in front of you. I haven't seen saboted ammo for rifles for many years, great idea just not a lot of demand. I know that many years ago they made some for 30-06, don't remember the sabot caliber but they were very fast.


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## oldvet

PurpleHeartJarhead said:


> Absolutely AGREE!! The reality is, no matter what most profess, most hunters cannot consistently make this shot. I'm not calling anyone out in this forum, I am just stating fact and experience. There's a whole lot that goes into making a shot in a target of this size and most people do not have the training to understand it. And that is before you even talk about distances beyond 100 yards.
> 
> In my opinion, there is little cogent argument for taking a head shot on a deer regardless of caliber.
> 
> As have I, and it is sad. My best friend put one down two years ago, in the name of mercy. I've also come across carcasses like this in the field and you know not only did the animal die in pain, but died also starving.
> 
> I have been a competitive shooter as well as an extremely proficient infantry Marine rifleman, having qualified 17 times an expert and earning a Distinguished Shooting Badge while a member of USMC shooting teams. It's easy to post ballistic data and talk about energy and velocities. It's another thing entirely to have been taught, understand and apply the fundamentals of marksmanship; what a cold bore zero is; down/up angle deflections; minute of angle (MOA) calculations; what the MOA accuracy of one's weapon, scope and their combination is; gravitational and rotational effects on distance shooting; and much more.
> 
> Again, in no way am I calling anyone out in this forum; I am simply stating some factual information and opinions derived from many years of shooting which I offer as anecdotal evidence. I have seen exponentially more people make claims of high shooting skill than those who actually possess it.
> 
> Making a shot inside a roughly 2-1/2" diameter target with consistency is challenging. When hunting for food, the heart-lung shot is the best and most humane shot to take. You _*might*_ have to walk a little bit, but the truth is, a clean heart-lung shot will not have an animal such as a whitetail deer running for miles and miles. The instances where that may happen are by far the exception and were likely not clean heart-lung shots.
> 
> *As to the original post*...sir the .223 is a light-weight cartridge and when paired with M16/AR platform, is a very light, capable and accurate weapon/caliber combo with adequate power to put down any whitetail deer at ranges to 150 yards with little effort when zeroed properly.


I have thought long and hard about posting a reply to this post and finally decided that I will just say this...I am not in the habit of lying about any of the things I have done and continue to do, so if I were to tell you that a Rooster can pull a freight train...you just might want to hook that sucker up and watch the show.

I have hunted with my AR for the past 20+ years and have made nothing but head shots, and have harvested a Deer every one of those years. Every Deer I have ever shot with that AR (in .223) has dropped like a rock where they stood.

Yes I am a Damn good shot and have proven it time after time. I qualified as expert every time I was required to go to the range during my career in the Air Force, and I have been an NRA Certified Instructor, and an NRA Certified Training Counselor, I was trained and certified by the State of Texas as a Concealed Carry Instructor, and before that I was Certified by the State of Texas as a Private Security "class room and Firearms" instructor.


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## cowboyhermit

The whole head shot thing is a tough one for me, I am not going to say how many I have taken, especially when one includes fur-bearing animals but more than a few to say the least. I have relatives that would just do this as a matter of course and they were accurate enough to do so.

However I cringe to recommend them because of all the other stuff I have seen over the years
We have a lot of "hunters" come up here from the U.S and from other provinces (after the Hanson buck years ago it was crazy) and that quickly taught me to doubt the proclaimed capability of other hunters 

Seeing a deer wounded by a head shot is brutal, and I have seen a lot of things for comparison. If you KNOW your gun, KNOW your range, Know your shooting position (braced) then taking a headshot can be done consistently and is a perfectly viable option. BUT the second you take that shot you damn well better have another shell chambered and IF that animal doesn't go down like a sack of potatoes you better take another one quick, not sit there staring and waiting, contemplating life 

Sorry for the rant, touchy subject for me.
If someone on here says they have the ability to take a shot reliably I am not going to argue, I have seen it many times. IRL however, someone hunting with me better make damn sure of their actual abilities, especially when buck fever hits. I have seen middle aged men with military experience waving their guns around like a flag trying to get steady when a big buck walked in front of them.

Edit to keep all my b.s in one post;
Range is a big factor too, there are many places where you simply won't see the game at less than 100 yards, others where 100 yards is about the farthest you can see.

200 yards is too bloody far to track a deer with a properly placed shot, that just indicates to me "Not enough gun". What happens when the shot is not perfect (wind gust, deer turns, etc, etc.) The only time I have ever tracked a deer that far was from people putting the bullet in the wrong place. Of course, up here .243 is minimum legal caliber.


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## Viking

One factor that I strive to take care of no matter what the caliber is to make sure the rifle is as accurate as it can possibly be made. Glass bedding, barrel weights (I know there are ones made for Mini 14's that definitely improve their accuracy) and floating barrels, like I've done on my 30-06 Ruger. Glass bedding is a project that is often best left for a good gunsmith that knows what they are doing. At least by taking out the weapon accuracy factor it leaves only the persons effects, such as flinch, proper breathing, trigger pull, holding the rifle steady or whatever. The most out of the box accurate rifle I've ever owned was a Ruger 25-06 that had a factory installed custom bull barrel, it was a real tack driver, when I sighted it in for elevation all three rounds were in a straight vertical line about one inch high of aim point, one inch low of aim point and the last one at aim point. I really like that rifle but it was just too much to lug around the mountains and I traded it back to my gunsmith friend for a Ruger 260 which is feather weight in comparison.


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## PurpleHeartJarhead

oldvet said:


> I have thought long and hard about posting a reply to this post and finally decided that I will just say this...I am not in the habit of lying about any of the things I have done and continue to do, so if I were to tell you that a Rooster can pull a freight train...you just might want to hook that sucker up and watch the show.
> 
> I have hunted with my AR for the past 20+ years and have made nothing but head shots, and have harvested a Deer every one of those years. Every Deer I have ever shot with that AR (in .223) has dropped like a rock where they stood.
> 
> Yes I am a Damn good shot and have proven it time after time. I qualified as expert every time I was required to go to the range during my career in the Air Force, and I have been an NRA Certified Instructor, and an NRA Certified Training Counselor, I was trained and certified by the State of Texas as a Concealed Carry Instructor, and before that I was Certified by the State of Texas as a Private Security "class room and Firearms" instructor.


Not sure why you chose to quote me and make the statements you did. I Have hunted deer with .223 on several occasions and have no problem with it.

The only problem I have ever said in this thread is that I do not recommend head shots, period. Too many people take what a few can actually do and fail to replicate the results, causing animals to be wounded & suffer instead of killed.

If you are of the type who can routinely make this shot, good for you. I did not and am not attempting to discredit anyone. Again, simply stated my experiences in finding dead or wounded animals that died suffering because their jaws had been shot away by some jackwagon who thought taking a head shot would be "cool."


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## hiwall

I said I was against head shots but all my life hunting squirrels that is the only shot I ever took. I guess if you can shoot a half-dollar size squirrel head then you can shoot a deer in the head.


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## oldvet

PurpleHeartJarhead said:


> Not sure why you chose to quote me and make the statements you did. I Have hunted deer with .223 on several occasions and have no problem with it.
> 
> The only problem I have ever said in this thread is that I do not recommend head shots, period. Too many people take what a few can actually do and fail to replicate the results, causing animals to be wounded & suffer instead of killed.
> 
> If you are of the type who can routinely make this shot, good for you. I did not and am not attempting to discredit anyone. Again, simply stated my experiences in finding dead or wounded animals that died suffering because their jaws had been shot away by some jackwagon who thought taking a head shot would be "cool."


PHJ, I know by quoting your post you assumed I was coming down on you. but that was not my intent. I was attempting to answer what I perceived as a challenge to my ability to consistently make those shots. If I offended you I do apologize as that really was not what I intended to do.

I agree that the majority of hunters and especially those "jackwagons" (I like that phrase) that think they are hunters, cannot routinely make those type of shots. I also realize that not a whole lot of people spend the time at the range that they should to have the ability or be confident enough in their ability to make those head shots.

I also realize and agree that the majority of well placed heart/lung shots do normally drop the animal almost immediately or it only takes a few steps before dropping and I am in no way against taking those shots, as I have done that very thing myself over the years.

I will clarify one thing and that is that I have passed many shots that I could have taken because the animal was not in the "perfect position" for that head shot. I will and do wait for that "perfect position" (between the eye and ear) before I make those head shots.

Again my post was not meant as an attack on you, and as I said I do apologize if you took it that way.


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## readytogo

*Ballistics Calculator*

http://www.winchester.com/learning-center/ballistics-calculator/Pages/ballistics-calculator.aspx


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## Stryker

Those calibers will do fine on any large game in North America as long as you use effective loads. Speed kills with that round.


Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


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