# Cheap fortification?



## pengyou (Dec 23, 2013)

Has anyone here built a house out of earthbags? I am thinking of doing so, partly because of the lower cost (though much more labor intensive) but partly because I think a wall made of bags full of gravel would be pretty good defense. Any experiences or thoughts?


----------



## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

the cheapest and possibly best is earth filled tires. Available for free and once packed tight with dirt you have a 2 to 3 foot thick earthen wall. Very labor intensive though.
http://www.simpleways2gogreen.info/tire-house-eco-friendly-house/


----------



## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

pengyou said:


> Has anyone here built a house out of earthbags? I am thinking of doing so, partly because of the lower cost (though much more labor intensive) but partly because I think a wall made of bags full of gravel would be pretty good defense. Any experiences or thoughts?


I'd checked your local zoning and building laws before putting too much money into the idea.

Resale value would be IMHO minimal.

A few well placed holes in the bottom row of bags would cause the rest of the house to settle and/or collapse.


----------



## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

My dream house would be made out of foam forms filled with concrete. A stone or brick facia would add additional ballistic and fire protection. The rebar would provide some protection against earthquake.


----------



## bigg777 (Mar 18, 2013)

If you are going to use gravel, use 3/4 inch clean or "crush and run". Do NOT use pea gravel, the irregular shape of 3/4 or c&r will not run out of a cavity as readily as round pea gravel.

PS - One of the least expensive fortifications I can think of is earth berming, if you have a brick. stone or block wall, "berming" dirt up against it will not only give you a degree of ballistic fortification, it will also insulate your walls and save you money on heating and cooling.


----------



## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

earthbag construction usually uses a clay type stabilizer in the mix. anything beats 6 inches of fiberglass mat insulation. 

Filling tires with dirt is very labour intensive, they have to be packed, earthbag can be mechanized fairly easily.


----------



## crabapple (Jan 1, 2012)

bigg777 said:


> If you are going to use gravel, use 3/4 inch clean or "crush and run". Do NOT use pea gravel, the irregular shape of 3/4 or c&r will not run out of a cavity as readily as round pea gravel.
> 
> PS - One of the least expensive fortifications I can think of is earth berming, if you have a brick. stone or block wall, "berming" dirt up against it will not only give you a degree of ballistic fortification, it will also insulate your walls and save you money on heating and cooling.


This is why the Israeli store their planes underground to protect against bombs. Some crazy people plant veggies & flower in the 4'X4' bermed earth walls.


----------



## cnsper (Sep 20, 2012)

I delivered the tires for this house

http://earthship.com/montana

At about the 6:30 mark or so I am dumping the tires.


----------



## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Build a regular house and just put on a rock face to make it highly bullet resistant. Or a regular house and build high dirt filled planters in strategic spots for bullet protection. Or build six inch thick dirt filled boxes and attach to any house to make it highly bullet resistant.


----------



## crabapple (Jan 1, 2012)

hiwall said:


> Build a regular house and just put on a rock face to make it highly bullet resistant. Or a regular house and build high dirt filled planters in strategic spots for bullet protection. Or build six inch thick dirt filled boxes and attach to any house to make it highly bullet resistant.


Will six inches of soil stop a 38 round or AK-47 round?


----------



## cnsper (Sep 20, 2012)

The absolute best is a tire bale house. 4.5' of compressed rubber tires will stop a 50 cal.


----------



## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

crabapple said:


> Will six inches of soil stop a 38 round or AK-47 round?


If the dirt is tamped, it'd probably stop both. It all depends on the type of dirt.

Here is a really interesting article where sand was used.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-7-the-sands-o-truth/

6 inches of sand stopped everything (barely.) Surprisingly, pistol calibers performed better due to bullet shape and lower velocities. The high powered rifle bullets tended to tumble and disintegrate. Calibers used were 22, 9mm, 45 ACP, 5.56, 7.62, 12 Ga slugs, and 45-70(!)

I like hiwall's suggestion with a slight modification. I'd use sand in the bottom and only fill it with just enough dirt that the plants required in order for them to grow.

To disguise it a bit and make it even more useful, I'd use railroad ties (the real kind with the creosote) spiked together with a minimum width of 2 feet. That should stop even 50 BMG. Then call them your 'raised bed' garden and grow food in them. It would probably be a good idea to line the inside with a plastic cloth to help hold the sand.

If the raised beds were 4 foot high and you lived on the top of a hill, you would likely have protection for the ground floor. Figuring out your fields of fire and shooting points is important before you begin since anyone who can get to your 'garden' will now have good cover too.


----------



## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

I had done a simple test with a box I put together from scraps. It was less than five inches and I used loose dry sand/dirt I found at the rifle range. I shot it many times with 223 full metal jacket rounds and none went through.


----------



## crabapple (Jan 1, 2012)

hiwall, I AM SURPRISED!
I was thinking loose sand, but that dose not matter.
Thanks.

Marcus, Thanks for the link.


----------



## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

Dont know if this would interest you but have you considered "Rammed Earth" construction? I read about it years ago in "Mother Earth News" and found the same article online.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/diy/rammed-earth-house-zmaz73sozraw.aspx

I'd imagine an 18-24 inch thick wall would stop anything that could be shoulder fired and it could last almost forever. Parts of the "Great Wall of China" were rammed earth and they're still there.

A little more background info from Wikipedia...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rammed_earth


----------



## SwordsandSaddles (Mar 14, 2015)

Backwoodsman Magazine had a little side article one time about nailing together 3 2x4's to make a trough, and filling it with cement/concrete, whathaveyou to make a cement board. They then did something similar with 2x8's, maybe, to make a slotted cement post that the cement boards would slide into.


----------



## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

SwordsandSaddles said:


> Backwoodsman Magazine had a little side article one time about nailing together 3 2x4's to make a trough, and filling it with cement/concrete, whathaveyou to make a cement board. They then did something similar with 2x8's, maybe, to make a slotted cement post that the cement boards would slide into.


If they used that for a wall, why not just pour the wall in the first place? In some areas of the country poured cement walls are fairly common. 
I know you were just posting about an article Swords but I wondered about the advantage.


----------



## SwordsandSaddles (Mar 14, 2015)

I remember expense and effectiveness as a privacy screen. Something you could do yourself. I believe that the article was meant as an alternative to a rail fence, not as a fortification option. Haha.


----------



## JustCliff (May 21, 2011)

I bought a book on Earthbag construction. I even bought 1000 bags. I want to build a root cellar with it. I do have some links but for me it is late and I really need some sleep. I will check back on here soon and see if I cant give you some info.


----------



## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

crabapple said:


> Will six inches of soil stop a 38 round or AK-47 round?


.38 Special or S&W, yes as long as it's well packed. I wouldn't bet on it stopping 7.62x39.

If you want cheap, go look for scrap steel.


----------



## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

zombieresponder said:


> .38 Special or S&W, yes as long as it's well packed. I wouldn't bet on it stopping 7.62x39.


You didn't even read the thread, did ya?

High powered rifle cartridges performed worse than pistol rounds due to their velocity and pointed ends.


----------



## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

Marcus said:


> You didn't even read the thread, did ya?
> 
> High powered rifle cartridges performed worse than pistol rounds due to their velocity and pointed ends.


I don't need to read the entire thread to answer the question I quoted. I have been shooting .38spl since I was 5 and x39 since I was ~10, both mostly into *dirt* backstops. Based on that experience, I would expect 6" of _packed_ dirt to stop the majority of .38 bullets and few x39. I can also tell you that x39 ball is very prone to ricochet. I've also shot both(and many others) into water and know that typical rifle rounds do quite poorly with that test medium. It's not really surprising.

The pointed end doesn't really matter except in creating a destabilizing effect to generate yaw upon impact with _some_ test media. Bullet construction and velocity are far more important.

This one has been updated since the first tests were conducted.
http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp


----------



## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

zombieresponder said:


> I don't need to read the entire thread to answer the question I quoted. I have been shooting .38spl since I was 5 and x39 since I was ~10, both mostly into *dirt* backstops. Based on that experience, I would expect 6" of _packed_ dirt to stop the majority of .38 bullets and few x39. I can also tell you that x39 ball is very prone to ricochet.
> 
> The pointed end doesn't really matter except in creating a destabilizing effect to generate yaw upon impact with _some_ test media. Bullet construction and velocity are far more important.


I don't reckon your 'experience' trumps an actual test.

This is what was left of 7.62 x 51 shot into a box constructed of 1/2" drywall facings separated by 2x6 ends and filled with sand (5.5" of sand total.) As I mentioned in an earlier post, the type of soil used as fill will cause variations in penetration. The fact that a 45-70 and a 7.62x51 wouldn't penetrate 5.5" of sand makes it highly unlikely that a 7.62x39 would.


----------



## musketjim (Dec 7, 2011)

My BOL and my house are already built , but since I can't stay awake and patrol 24 hrs. the idea of building barricades for them to hide behind to shoot up my place isn't very appealing. Make sure you have extra friends willing to pull guard duty if your building barricades. :2thumb:


----------



## readytogo (Apr 6, 2013)

*Home Fortification...............*

A bunker is a defensive military fortification designed to protect people one very important aspect of a fortification is the top or roof, it will do you no good to have thick walls and a weak roof, fortifications have no windows either, a very weak link in home defense, so unless you have lots of money and the building codes agree with you, build a nice home with a white picket fence and be Happy.
Because there are no cheap fortifications,cheap will get you kill.


----------



## Onebigelf (Sep 17, 2011)

Build a concrete block raised bed 36-40 inches high against the house. Fill it with planting soil and raise vegetables in it. 30-36" wide and a row of block on both sides (filled) will stop anything, it'll add insulation, it's too close for attackers to use as cover, and it'll help feed you.

John


----------



## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

*Be careful about the kind of block you use!*



Onebigelf said:


> Build a concrete block raised bed 36-40 inches high against the house. Fill it with planting soil and raise vegetables in it. 30-36" wide and a row of block on both sides (filled) will stop anything, it'll add insulation, it's too close for attackers to use as cover, and it'll help feed you.
> 
> John


https://beauregardparishcountrylife...-note-toxins-in-concrete-blocks-and-concrete/



> By George Giltner, Adv. Master Gardener, MS Biology (and Pesticide Applicator Certified)
> 
> Gardeners love raised beds. And, raised beds are so easily built with concrete blocks which are thought of as the most inert and safest product on the market for gardening. Gee, I hate spoil your perceptions. Like the commercial food we consume, some is good and some is bad, just like concrete products used in gardening.
> 
> ...


----------



## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

From the article the danger from the blocks seems very slim. The blocks MAY contain ash. The ash MAY contain heavy metals. Local conditions MAY allow acids to attack the concrete. The acids MAY allow the heavy metals to become mobile. Odds seem very small that every condition would be met.
But like all information it is good to have so you can make a good decision.


----------



## Griff (Jan 12, 2013)

Like most of you, I've been trying to figure out how to keep what I've built without going off the deep end. 
So I did some thinking and searching and ended up learning about Roman Field Fortifications. They developed ways to use what was right in front of them, over their heads, and under their feet to CYA. 
The basic principles are clear the land, dig some ditches, build a hill with the dirt and rocks, and put a log wall on top of it. The tree limbs and branches are ready-made obstacles, or can be used to make fascines or dirt baskets.
Nothing was wasted. All done by hand and horse. Find a buddy with a skid-steer and knock this stuff out real quick. 
Might be worth a look if you don't want to spend the mortgage payment on concertina wire, t-posts, and landscaping timbers, or just to get some ideas for a layout plan if you should ever need it. 

(If you really want to get fancy, look up "Circumvallation of Alesia")


----------



## terri9630 (Jun 2, 2016)

hiwall said:


> I had done a simple test with a box I put together from scraps. It was less than five inches and I used loose dry sand/dirt I found at the rifle range. I shot it many times with 223 full metal jacket rounds and none went through.


Those would be perfect targets for our area!! It's hard to go to the shooting range because of the wind. The public ranges don't have target holders so we have to bring our own and the "portable" ones are extremely heavy or flimsy.


----------



## readytogo (Apr 6, 2013)

Don`t forget the many escape routes needed to survived and make a good escape.


----------



## crabapple (Jan 1, 2012)

readytogo said:


> Don`t forget the many escape routes needed to survived and make a good escape.
> View attachment 14806


Me likey!
Do you have a link?


----------



## oldasrocks (Jun 30, 2012)

hiwall said:


> I had done a simple test with a box I put together from scraps. It was less than five inches and I used loose dry sand/dirt I found at the rifle range. I shot it many times with 223 full metal jacket rounds and none went through.


I built some targets with 1/2 " plywood and 2X4's, filled with chat ( limestone driveway rock) . It would even stop a 44 mag.


----------



## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

oldasrocks said:


> I built some targets with 1/2 " plywood and 2X4's, filled with chat ( limestone driveway rock) . It would even stop a 44 mag.


If larger boxes were built such as this and attached to a home for bullet protection it would also provided some radiation resistance for WW3.


----------



## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

Dirt fortifications are cheap, easily repaired and the materials are readily available.
You may find this interesting about Fort McAllister near Savannah Georgia.

It was an earthen fortification that withstood all naval bombardments and held the Union navy from advancing on Savannah Georgia during "The War of Northern Aggression".

http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/articles/history-archaeology/fort-mcallister

Fort McAllister was a Confederate earthwork fortification near the mouth of the Ogeechee River in Bryan County. The fort played an important role in the defense of Savannah during the Union navy blockade of the Georgia coast.
Fort McAllister, a Confederate earthwork fortification near the mouth of the Ogeechee River, was designed by military engineers to absorb considerable punishment from Union bombardment. The fort was built chiefly for defense against naval attacks.
Fort McAllister
Built in 1861 at Genesis Point, the fort was constructed on the plantation of Lieutenant Colonel Joseph Longworth McAllister, for whom it was named. Fort McAllister provided protection from the U.S. Navy for the southern flank of Savannah, about fifteen miles to the north, during the Civil War (1861-65). It also afforded defense for the productive rice plantations of the lower Ogeechee River basin, and for the Savannah, Albany & Gulf Railroad Bridge, a key transportation link, farther upriver.
The earthworks were designed by military engineers to absorb considerable punishment from Union bombardment. The fort was built chiefly for defense against naval attacks, rather than against a landward assault. Fort McAllister had ten large-caliber guns and facilities for the heating of "red-hot shot," cannonballs that, when striking their targets, could set wooden warships ablaze.
During 1862 and 1863, Fort McAllister repelled seven Union naval attacks
During 1862 and 1863, Fort McAllister repelled seven Union naval attacks. Fort McAllister never fell to Union naval forces because of its unique earthen construction. In 1864 Union general William T. Sherman's army captured the fort from the landward side.
Fort McAllister
by elements of the blockading forces offshore and in nearby Ossabaw Sound. Several of these attacks were made by the latest in naval warship technology, including the ironclad monitors USS Montauk and USS Passaic. One of the casualties of the Union assaults was Major John Gallie, Fort McAllister's commanding officer. The fort sustained damage to its earthwork walls, but the guns of Fort McAllister managed to drive off the Union attackers each time they came upriver to bombard the fort. Blasted sections of the fort were quickly replaced with dirt and marsh mud.
In early 1863 the Confederate blockade-runner, CSS Rattlesnake (formerly the CSS Nashville) took refuge in the Ogeechee River. After taking on a load of cotton, it was grounded on the mudflats not far from Fort McAllister. Union gunboats proceeded to fire on the Rattlesnake at long range across the marsh and eventually set her on fire. The Confederate vessel and its cargo were completely destroyed.
Fort McAllister never fell to Union naval forces because of its unique earthen construction. This was in sharp contrast to the much larger and supposedly impregnable Fort Pulaski at nearby Cockspur Island, which fell after less than thirty-six hours of bombardment by Union forces using newly developed rifled artillery. (Rifling, or the addition of spiral grooves within a gun's barrel, made these weapons especially effective against Fort Pulaski's masonry fortifications.)
Elements of the right wing of Union general William T. Sherman's Army of the Tennessee crossed the Ogeechee River in early December 1864, near the end of its March to the Sea. Sherman's orders to Major General O. O. Howard were to capture Fort McAllister from the landward side, so that the Union army might be resupplied from navy transports anchored offshore. Reduction of Fort McAllister would also open the "back door" to Savannah for Sherman's forces.
The Union land assault on Fort McAllister on December 13, 1864, overwhelmed the heavily outnumbered Confederate defenders
A Union land assault on December 13, 1864, overwhelmed the heavily outnumbered Confederate defenders in a brief, but very intense, battle. Fort McAllister is now maintained by the Georgia Department of Natural Resources as a state historic park.
Fort McAllister
in a brief, but very intense, battle of fifteen minutes. Federal infantry poured across the narrow causeway linking Genesis Point with the mainland, despite the mining of the approaches to the fort by the Confederates. Sherman observed the successful attack from a vantage point atop the rice mill of the Cheves Plantation across the river. Following the surrender of Major George W. Anderson's force, Sherman and members of his staff landed at Fort McAllister by boat, and they made contact with the Union naval forces in Ossabaw Sound.
For the remainder of the war, Fort McAllister served as a prison for Confederate soldiers captured on the upper Georgia coast. After the war, the fort fell into ruin and remained so until the late 1930s, when it was restored as a historic site for the public through funding provided by Henry Ford, who owned the property at that time. Fort McAllister is now maintained by the Georgia Department of Natural Resources as a state historic park, with a museum, guided tours, and interpretive programming.

VIRTUAL TOUR:
http://www.quantumtour.com/entity/mcallister/tour/mcallister/scene/cannon1/#viewer


----------



## Onebigelf (Sep 17, 2011)

First, "War of Northern Aggression" is inaccurate. My mother's family had ancestors that were at Sumter. According to family legend, the War for Southern Independence started over a drunken bet as to whether the 6lb cannon of the Carolina Light Artillery could reach the fort
(It did). The first shot struck and killed the commander's dog and the war was on.

As to the toxicity of concrete in building garden boxes for defense. You can paint or line the inside with a food-safe coating or material if it worries you. I suggested it because our home in S. Florida had brick planters all across the front, painted to match the house.

John


----------



## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

As to the toxicity of concrete, I think there are many people that have concrete cisterns at their houses(I think several on this forum) so all their drinking water is stored in concrete.


----------

