# Night vision vs thermal vision.



## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

Night vision vs thermal vision.






How to avoid thermal detection (maybe the guys that wear foil hats aren't so nuts after all?)


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

Both have there advantages. Big disadvantage ta thermal be the cost.

We use thermal camera's at work all the time. They show ya alot. However as ta beatin a thermal image, the only true way ta do that is ta be at the exact same temperature as the surrondins. That means ifin the ambient air (er fer example the wall ya be against) be 78 degree's, ya gotta be at 78 degree's an so on. Just the slightest difference will show on a good system. Ours have a thermal temperature function good ta a hundredth of a degree. Perty tough ta beat that.

Night vision works well especially ifin it has a illuminator to. I've used a fair amounta it. The goggles be nice but outa the price range a most folks. Ya can get the hand held ones an they do perty well, good enough fer the average joe I'd say.

They can be bout fer around 200 ta 300 dollars. Thermal camera's on the other hand (ones we got at work) run about 7500 dollars. That be down from 10,000 dollars just bout 6 years ago. We've played with our thermals allot. Ya can see a feller in on the other side ofa insulated wall perty well. We wrapped on feller up in a space blanket an it didn't take long tall fer him ta start showin a good heat signature. Plus, the heat signature will reflect to. That means on some surfaces, yer own heat signature will shadow on the surface in fronta ya. There a neat tool, but they do have limitations to. One thin bout thermal, ya gotta be super carefull with the lens. Ya don't just wipe em clean er ya destroy the coatin on the lens.

Fer my money (ifin I'm spendin my own) I would get the night vision. Just makes better financial sense in my book. Ifin it all fell ta pieces, I'm purty sure I could "borrow" a thermal camera from work an have the best a both worlds.

That be my two coppers on it from workin with both anywho.

On edit: I just watch the evadin thermal vid. Notice how ya could see that glove plain as day? Why? Because it weren't the same temp as the bacground. Less visible then his uncovered body, but still very visible. So, even ifin he made a whole suit that same way, he'd still be recognisable as somethin needin further investigation cause it would still be visible, less so then normal, but still there. Over time, it's gonna heat up from yer body heat. Just be the way it works, warm always wan'ts ta travel ta cold. Perty hard stuff ta evade really.

Over the short term, ifin ya treated a small room thata way, ya could be less visible. But ya ain't never gonna be totally invisible fer a extended period a time. Well, maybe real deep in the ground ya could be.


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## crabapple (Jan 1, 2012)

OldCootHillyBilly, 
what you are saying make sense, but what about hiding in the suit, behind something of the same ambient temp?
The ambient shield would hide the suit & the suit would keep the person from raising the shields ambient temp.
What, I do not know & it would not work if the watcher walked past the ambient shield.
If the watcher was only scanning the woods line, then it would work, wouldn't it?
Show me why this would not work, I welcome all insight.


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

It would work fer awhile. 

Ta wear that suit what the feller made the mitten outa, I'd be hopin it were real cold out cause all that insulation gonna make it real miserable quick like. 

The other thin bein, even though we thin the thermal gear at work be expensive (an fer joe average it be that) it's really cheap stuff compared ta what say the military uses. 

I thin what it boils down ta, ya can lessin yer thermal signature but ya ain't never gonna eleminate it.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

Thermal worked great at detecting machine parts that are about to fail. Every month we would inspect our machines at work for bearing problems then put it on maintenance orders for the week end crew.

I used to walk around at night with my night vision and was always amazed at what I saw. I could walk right up to nocturnal animals (within 10-20 feet) and they wouldn't move.

If I had to pick thermal or night vision, I would rather have night vision. But it would be great if you could have both.


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## Cast-Iron (Nov 8, 2013)

I'm not an expert on this so if you are and I'm missing something, please chime in. I have seen some comments here that don't mesh with what little research I've done on FLIR technology so I figured I would offer a few comments. Thermal imaging is reported to be easily compromised for *short durations* by simply cloaking yourself beneath a heavy wool blanket, behind/beneath building insulation, or even moving behind a glass panel.

Your body maintains a core temp of around 98.6 degrees (give or take). If your in a 70 degree nocturnal environment, your body's heat signature greatly contrasts with that of your cooler surroundings. This temperature contrast makes you easily detectable to anyone with infrared technology. These systems can't "see" thru mass. In other words if pointed at a boulder, they will only recognize the temperature at the surface facing the detector. They basically "see" the surface temperature of anything in their line of sight. Going underground may conceal your signature from detection indefinitely. Much like losing a radio signal in a tunnel. If you are near exhaust vents with warm air coming out, the heat from the exhaust could obscure or complicate the detection of your heat signature.

It is a useful technology and someday if I've got more money than sense, I wouldn't mind having FLIR equipment myself. Just remember brief thermal scans can readily be defeated by a person or persons with the knowledge, means, and inclination to do so.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

When the forest fires were burning this summer I looked due West through night vision binoculars and saw fires burning all over the mountain side that could not be seen through my high quality 7X50 binoculars. I was amazed at how well the night vision worked through all the smoke that obscured the standard binoculars. I'd love to have both but thermal vision can be very expensive.


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

Mass will mask yer signature.

However, say that exhaust yer standin in be warmer then yer body temp, yer still gonna be seen, as a cooler spot in a warm cloud. It be all about temps, ifin they be exactly the same yer not gonna be seen, ifin not, yer gonna show. That be why in the video ya can see the shape a that mitten he made, it were different temp then what was behind him. Granted, not nearly as visible as without it, but still visible. Like that piece a glass he was hidin behind, notice how ya could see the shape a the glass? Notice how the edges glowed where he were ahangin onta it? Temperature difference. Folks what be highly trained in it's use know how ta read all that. Also notice his thermal reflection when he tilted that glass. That be sumtin else ta take inta consideration.

Fer short periods a time home insulation will hide ya, but not indefinitly. I ain't no full on expert with theremal, but we've played with em lots at work when we be bored. Just my 9 years a experience a playin with it. Like I said fore, the better the equipment the harder it be ta hide from it. It's not all seein, but lots harder ta hide from.


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## Cast-Iron (Nov 8, 2013)

OldCootHillbilly said:


> Mass will mask yer signature.
> 
> However, say that exhaust yer standin in be warmer then yer body temp, yer still gonna be seen, as a cooler spot in a warm cloud. It be all about temps, ifin they be exactly the same yer not gonna be seen, ifin not, yer gonna show. That be why in the video ya can see the shape a that mitten he made, it were different temp then what was behind him. Granted, not nearly as visible as without it, but still visible. Like that piece a glass he was hidin behind, notice how ya could see the shape a the glass? Notice how the edges glowed where he were ahangin onta it? Temperature difference. Folks what be highly trained in it's use know how ta read all that. Also notice his thermal reflection when he tilted that glass. That be sumtin else ta take inta consideration.
> 
> Fer short periods a time home insulation will hide ya, but not indefinitly. I ain't no full on expert with theremal, but we've played with em lots at work when we be bored. Just my 9 years a experience a playin with it. Like I said fore, the better the equipment the harder it be ta hide from it. It's not all seein, but lots harder ta hide from.


_With all due respect, I find it difficult to try and read your intentionally poor grammar and spelling in your apparent effort to sound folksy. It's a shame because it usually means I simply ignore and skip over your posts to avoid the frustration of having to try and decipher their content. If in fact you lack the education or capacity to correctly use our English language, please accept my apologies as I never want to discriminate against the illiterate or the disabled._

That being said, if you were completely behind a "wall" of exhaust fumes that exceed your own heat signature, you WILL NOT be seen as a cold spot. If you are only mixed in with that exhaust, than it is possible that you would be seen as a cold spot but your profile would likely be quite distorted. FLIR does not see through a thermal mass to image what lies beyond it. Just as it can't image a person beneath a dense canopy of vegetation but can sometimes detect heat signatures below a broken canopy for the same reason. It is a fine line perhaps, but it is this distinction that explains how this technology can be defeated.


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

Cast-Iron said:


> _With all due respect, I find it difficult to try and read your intentionally poor grammar and spelling in your apparent effort to sound rural. It's a shame because it usually means I simply ignore and skip over your posts to avoid the frustration of having to try and decipher their content. If in fact you lack the education or capacity to correctly use our English language, please accept my apologies as I never want to discriminate against the illiterate or the disabled._
> 
> That being said, if you were completely behind a "wall" of exhaust fumes that exceed your own heat signature, you WILL NOT be seen as a cold spot. If you are only mixed in with that exhaust, than it is possible that you would be seen as a cold spot but your profile would likely be quite distorted. FLIR does not see through a thermal mass to image what lies beyond it. Just as it can't image person beneath a dense canopy of vegetation for the same reason. It is a fine line perhaps, but it is this distinction that explains how this technology can be defeated.


By all means ignore my posts an my experience with this. It won't bother me in the least bit. Be yalls loss not mine. Ya can keep yer apologies ta yerself, ain't welcome er wanted.

Ta others what read this, cast iron already said he got little experience with thermal imagine cept what he's read. I work with it all the time. It's all bout temperature, any difference an it's gonna show. With that, I'll be done with this post. My information an experience ain't wanted here, I'll give it ta folks that do wan't it. Don't trust yer life with somebody what only reads bout technology.

You can see wires in a wall, pipes in a wall. Why? Because they have a different temperature signature then the wall. Get it. It's about temperature. Yeah, it ain't gonna be a perfect picture, but somebody trained ta use it will know ifin there be a hot spot where it ain't spoused ta be gonna pay lots more attention ta that area.

By yall.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

Aww c'mon coots, ya ant gotta be so sensative! The newb was being lippy n disrespectful, mostly out of ignorance, just being a newb.

Im sure im not the only one that was following along because of your experience.


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

Ain't sensitvie, just don't deal with idiots no more. Yall got questions, PM me, be glad ta answer em ifin I can.


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## txcatlady (Sep 26, 2013)

Silly me! I was reading right along and didn't realize that I should be struggling with understand what hillbilly was saying. I guess that make me a old coot too. Fabulous! I wish I had just a little of his experience, knowledge and common sense. Keep it up my friend! I choose to read your posts. The highly technical stuff is boring. I want to know what works and why from real people! Not trying to start a fight,,,,just my thoughts.


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## Cast-Iron (Nov 8, 2013)

Wow I am called ignorant and idiot in consecutive posts! What a gift you two must have for discerning a person's intellect with just a few written words. Your families must be so proud of you.

I am wise enough to exercise caution when approaching someone with extensive hands-on experience using equipment or technology that I have limited knowledge of or experience with. However when claims are made that seem to contradict the laws of physics as I understand them, I feel obliged to comment and clarify what I believe to be wrong or misleading statements.

Infrared detectors do not look through physical mass. What they will detect is the heat transferred to adjacent materials. By manipulating, dissipating, or concealing this heat transference, you can effectively camouflage your thermal image profile. There is plenty of video evidence out there which explains and demonstrates how it works. FLIR devices are a great technology for many different applications, but like any other technology it has its limitations.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

Cast-Iron said:


> Wow I am called ignorant and idiot in consecutive posts! What a gift you two must have for discerning a person's intellect with just a few written words. Your families must be so proud of you.
> 
> I am wise enough to exercise caution when approaching someone with extensive hands-on experience using equipment or technology that I have limited knowledge of or experience with. However when claims are made that seem to contradict the laws of physics as I understand them, I feel obliged to comment and clarify what I believe to be wrong or misleading statements.
> 
> Infrared detectors do not look through physical mass. What they will detect is the heat transferred to adjacent materials. By manipulating, dissipating, or concealing this heat transference, you can effectively camouflage your thermal image profile. There is plenty of video evidence out there which explains and demonstrates how it works. FLIR devices are a great technology for many different applications, but like any other technology it has its limitations.


Dude, seriously, calm down. First, you are not saying anything substantialy different than what Coots said. Next, the criticisms aimed at you, and this is important, are in reaction to you insulting Coots (a highly valued, well respected, obviously skilled long time member here) because of the way he expresses himself here. You put your own ignorance on display by insulting members here, dont be all butt hurt when you get called on it.

Now the only question is, can you contribute, or will you let this incident turn into an insult fest that get this thread locked.. choice is yours...


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## BlueShoe (Aug 7, 2010)

Yeah guys, let's make our peace and get back to the dissemination of facts and experiences. This is a good and needed topic for discussion.


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## Cast-Iron (Nov 8, 2013)

FatTire said:


> Dude, seriously, calm down. First, you are not saying anything substantialy different than what Coots said. Next, the criticisms aimed at you, and this is important, are in reaction to you insulting Coots (a highly valued, well respected, obviously skilled long time member here) because of the way he expresses himself here. You put your own ignorance on display by insulting members here, dont be all butt hurt when you get called on it.
> 
> Now the only question is, can you contribute, or will you let this incident turn into an insult fest that get this thread locked.. choice is yours...


Thanks for your additional comments, FatTire. Believe me when I say I am perfectly calm and I have been so all day today. Sometimes I get caught up in semantics, splitting the fine hairs if you will, and I realize that it is often not viewed as an endearing quality of mine. Additionally, I never meant to offend Coots. I just expressed my personal opinion about his choice of writing style. It just happens to annoy me. It may have lacked tact, but it was my honest opinion and was only meant to inform him that I am reluctant to read his posts. You can call it ignorance if you prefer, but I figure honesty is the best policy even if it makes me look like an a$$ to others on this forum. No hard feelings here and I'd like to believe that Coots is seasoned enough to respect my candor, even if I muffed the delivery.

Anyway I don't know that I have anything more constructive to add here so I'll bid everyone a good evening!


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

Well Cast-Iron I see that you're from the Texas hill country, are you born and raised in Texas? If so then I suspect you have a bit of Texas drawl which some of us Northerners might have a little trouble understanding. Then again you could be a misplaced person living in Texas, kind of like that salsa ad with the guy from New York wearing fancy cowboy boots and Western hat putting whipped cream on his special coffee. I'm from the Northwest and I have no problem understanding what OldCootHillbilly writes, in fact I rather enjoy it, it adds color and warmth to the subject.


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## pawpaw (Dec 21, 2011)

ALRIGHT, you guys! Don't MAKE me pull this car over.....


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## BlueShoe (Aug 7, 2010)

I haven't used much night vision, but the items I'm familiar with start around $2000 for a comparable-to-thermal option. I don't shop around, but I've seen thermal at shows for $1800. I know there are $300-400 night vision devices, but they don't look like much to me and can be seen in Youtube vids. For IDing hiding figures, thermal seems like the ticket.


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