# Butter/Cheese & Botulisum?



## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

I got a feller herrasin me about water bath cannin butter an cheese. Said it's not safe that you will get botulisum. I think he be blowin smoke myself, but what yall think? If it was meat er somthin like that, yeah, yer gonna pressure can it, but I don't think so on dairy?


----------



## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

Everthing I keep readin on this subject says ta water bath can. I see no reason it needs ta be pressure canned.

I guess some people just need something ta grump about.


----------



## PamsPride (Dec 21, 2010)

Tell him he has nothing to worry about because you did not plan on giving him any anyways!


----------



## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

I boiled mine, following directions from another site...one lady said she opened a can 4 yrs. canned, and it was great--that sold me.


----------



## iouJC (Nov 20, 2010)

The problem with water bath canning butter s it is not "recommended" due to the fact that it contains fat which is not neccessarily rendered safe according to govenment standards for food preservation. The choice is yours to make....do you want to be absolutely safe or do you want to enjoy the flavor and joy of real butter on your food? 
I have not yet made up my mind....thus I have not yet canned any butter.


----------



## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

Well, guess life is full a choices. I ain't sure all the food we buy necessarily be safe, so, If I can keep things clean, store it properly I feel the risk would be minimal.

They sell canned butter, so it must not be immposible, maybe the only difference being pressure can it rather then water bath. Everbody I've seen that cans it though does so with a water bath canner. Guess we'll keep an eye on the experiment.


----------



## catsraven (Jan 25, 2010)

Why would you can cheese? Cheese will keep for long time if properly stored. Around 5 years.


----------



## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

I can cheese because it doesn't get mold on it that I have to cut off. It's an easier way for me to properly store cheese! My parents used to dip their cheese in wax and wrap it in cloth and it in a cool place. Every so often we'd cut off the mold and slice off what we needed.

I think part of the problem some people might worry about is the density, and does enough heat get to the middle to kill anything "bad". That wouldn't be a problem with butter, but cheese is pretty dense. 

Neither butter or cheese are foods that are associated with botulism and the environment needed for it to grow. I feel safe with my home-canned butter and cheeses. 

I just did a google search on it, and it appears that while cheese SAUCES can get botulism, because of other ingredients added, cheese itself cannot support the growth of botulism, since botulism is anaerobic. 

But certainly, if you have any doubts, don't can it or eat anyone else's canned butter or cheese. There are exellent freeze-dried cheeses and butters out there, as well as commercially canned products.


----------



## catsraven (Jan 25, 2010)

I dont see how it would be easier but to each his or her own


----------



## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

PamsPride said:


> Tell him he has nothing to worry about because you did not plan on giving him any anyways!


:melikey:

I will have to remember that! lol


----------



## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

OldCootHillbilly said:


> I got a feller herrasin me about water bath cannin butter an cheese. Said it's not safe that you will get botulisum. I think he be blowin smoke myself, but what yall think? If it was meat er somthin like that, yeah, yer gonna pressure can it, but I don't think so on dairy?


Just a question ... is this butter/cheese that you have made or do you buy it and then can it.

And to your question about botulisum ... I have no clue. (sorry) I do not can either.

but like catsraven said ... to each his or her own.


----------



## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

What could be hard about canning cheese? You just shove it in jars, put the lid and ring on it, and set it in a kettle, cover the jar with water and let it boil an hour. Done. 

I have a 5-gallon kettle of water boiling on the woodstove about 8 months of the year here in NW Montana. I just drop a canner rack in it and drop the jars onto it, and ignore the whole mess for at least an hour. Ues the jar lifter to fish them out and set them on a towel. 

Yup. To each his or her own!


----------



## catsraven (Jan 25, 2010)

You dont live in a house like mine . You have to get kitchen time or every one will get in your way . I have to fined a time when every one is gone or stay up late to do anything in the kitchen. Someone is always wanting to use the stove for something. It gets very aggravating. That is why it is easier to use wax in my house. Melt it (it only uses one small pan) and paint it on.


----------



## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

I didn't can butter for a cost benefit--I canned it because when electricity is no longer available---I can have pancake, syrup I canned, with butter I canned.

I know I can buy syrup at Save-a-Lot for $1---but it won't last like my canned syrup.


I hope!!:2thumb:


----------



## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

The stuff I canned was commercially produced.

I still don't find anything what says it will support botulisum. If this was a meat product would be a no brainer, inta the pressure canner it would go.

You can buy canned cheese an butter, I hate ta pay somebody else to do what I can at home plus the shippin. That be money that can add ta supplies. Also, ya never know where er what be in that product. At least here I have a better idear a what wen't inta the jar.


----------



## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

JayJay said:


> I didn't can butter for a cost benefit--I canned it because when electricity is no longer available---I can have pancake, syrup I canned, with butter I canned.
> 
> I know I can buy syrup at Save-a-Lot for $1---but it won't last like my canned syrup.
> 
> I hope!!:2thumb:


Well, we live off-grid, so we're doing the have-it-because-there's-no-electricity thing now, by cannnig butter (and cheese).

The only cost benefit I have is that I bought a lot of butter on a good sale ($1.50/lb.) and canned it at a cost of about 10 cents a lid. The canning process was free because I water-bathed it on the woodstove, which already had a fire in it to heat the house!

In the long range I still saved at least .90/lb. at off-sale prices of $2.50/lb and up. That's what I do with cheese, too. I wait until the 2-lb. blocks go on sale for $4 and buy half a dozen of them, and can them.

I have to admit, that paint-it-with-wax method sounds pretty tempting to try. I didn't remember how my Mom did that waaaaaaayyyyy back when I was a kid!


----------



## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

I thought that pressure canning / canners was to make up for the lower boiling point of water at higher altitudes.


----------



## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

A pressure canner raises the temperature a what water boils at allowin a higher cannin temp then ya can get with a water bath canner.

That be why it is used on low acid foods ta kill off the nasteys what will survive a water bath canner.


----------



## lhalfcent (Mar 11, 2010)

JayJay said:


> I boiled mine, following directions from another site...one lady said she opened a can 4 yrs. canned, and it was great--that sold me.


before you can butter you melt it and skim the fat off so you basically have clarified butter or ghee.
so you don't have the issue with botulism etc.
it does work and tastes fine. :2thumb:


----------



## rhrobert (Apr 27, 2009)

lhalfcent said:


> before you can butter you melt it and skim the fat off so you basically have clarified butter or ghee.
> so you don't have the issue with botulism etc.
> it does work and tastes fine. :2thumb:


You skim off all the goodness??? I can butter, I don't can ghee. My parents, and grandparents canned butter, water bath style, and ain't a one of us ever got sick.

OldCoot, just don't share it with them that don't think it's safe...to each their own.


----------



## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

I've always canned "whole" butter, and the only boiling it got was in the water bath. Some people melt the butter and pour it in the jars, but I melt it right in the jars.

Skim anything off it? Never have. But I've heard of "ghee" and never knew what it was. I appreciate that knowledge!


----------



## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

gypsysue said:


> I've always canned "whole" butter, and the only boiling it got was in the water bath. Some people melt the butter and pour it in the jars, but I melt it right in the jars.
> 
> Skim anything off it? Never have. But I've heard of "ghee" and never knew what it was. I appreciate that knowledge!


I WILL water bath next time--so much easier and less clean up--butter can be greasy!!:gaah:


----------



## hillbilly (Jan 24, 2009)

We only water bath which includes cheese and butter which is usually made in the summer when our Goats are giving us 5 gal. of milk a day.But we also only water bath all our meats,veggies,fruits,soups,sauces and never had any problems because you have to cook the meat and anything that might produce Bot after opening,because everything that is home canned or store bought has Bot organisms in it.


----------



## NotAGrasshopper (Oct 25, 2010)

OldCootHillbilly said:


> I got a feller herrasin me about water bath cannin butter an cheese. Said it's not safe that you will get botulisum. I think he be blowin smoke myself, but what yall think? If it was meat er somthin like that, yeah, yer gonna pressure can it, but I don't think so on dairy?


Sorry to necro-post but I found this doing a search and feel compelled to respond. I will be blunt.

Dairy/meat has nothing to do with it. Butter and cheese will support botulinum growth just like any other low acid food.

When you are canning, the *only* thing that matters (beyond aseptic conditions) is water activity. Acid lowers water activity. So does salt. If you don't understand what water activity is or understand its role in preventing bacteria growth, you have *no* business canning anything beyond using the USDA recommended recipes and methods.



> and ain't a one of us ever got sick


Love the cavalier attitude toward one of the most potent neurotoxins found in nature...

Just like with green beans or anything else, you can get away with canning butter or cheese improperly but all it takes is one botulinum spore in the product and someone is going to spend six weeks in an iron lung - assuming such medical care is available when it happens. Eat up, but giving this crap to anyone else is dangerous and irresponsible.


----------



## stayingthegame (Mar 22, 2011)

catsraven said:


> You dont live in a house like mine . You have to get kitchen time or every one will get in your way . I have to fined a time when every one is gone or stay up late to do anything in the kitchen. Someone is always wanting to use the stove for something. It gets very aggravating. That is why it is easier to use wax in my house. Melt it (it only uses one small pan) and paint it on.


just add a new stove that is labeled MOM'S ONLY.


----------



## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

nice article with reserach and many fine links to follow on this subject

To Bottle or Not To Bottle Butter « Preparedness Pro


----------



## Emerald (Jun 14, 2010)

The_Blob said:


> nice article with reserach and many fine links to follow on this subject
> 
> To Bottle or Not To Bottle Butter « Preparedness Pro


Thanks The Blob! Just what we needed. :2thumb:


----------



## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

stayingthegame said:


> just add a new stove that is labeled MOM'S ONLY.


Hey, cat'sraven..I'm coming to your house---dh couldn't find the light switch in the kitchen last week...there are two---he didn't know---been here 4 years!!!:gaah:


----------



## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

The_Blob said:


> nice article with reserach and many fine links to follow on this subject
> 
> To Bottle or Not To Bottle Butter « Preparedness Pro


Thanks so much for this article---I got so frightened with the first batch I put it in the freezer rather than lose it---then canned another batch after reading info something like this article---and again, I feel so much safer with my beautiful canned butter in the pantry beside my other jars.
peace.


----------



## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

NotAGrasshopper said:


> Sorry to necro-post but I found this doing a search and feel compelled to respond. I will be blunt.
> 
> Dairy/meat has nothing to do with it. Butter and cheese will support botulinum growth just like any other low acid food.
> 
> ...


I'll be blunt to cause I'm tired a this:

If ya don't feel comfortable doin it DON'T!
If ya don't wanna eat the food at my house DON'T!

As far as the USDA goes, I don't beleive everthin they say cause they got there own interest at heart, not ours. If dairy folks would spend all the money the USDA wan'ts em to I'm perty sure they'd come out with, cannin butter be fine.

Lets see, bing cherries were gonna kill ya, eggs were gonna kill ya, fish was gonna kill ya. A little common sense goes a long ways.

If ya follow proper sanitation an cannin practice ya should not have problems with yer products.

So, I will continue ta can my butter an enjoy it with no worries about eatin it anymore then all the other foods we can an store.

Blob, thanks fer the article, just a bit more proof that we ain't as crazy as some folks like ta think we be.


----------



## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

*Now I'm worried...*

*All my hootch is in Mason jars...do I need to water bath them?.. I doubt any crawlies can live in it but wanna be safe yanno?..:beercheer:

Hey Coot..I'll brang the Sinkers if you got butter!!*


----------



## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

Welcome any time. We'll put on a feedbag an sit sippin some good stuff round a fire Hozay!


----------



## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

Hey, OldCoot---did you read the article???
Let us tell EVERYONE here what the deal is...and what the odds are.
There are 320,000,000 people in the U.S......and every year, a whopping fricking BIG 34 people get sick from botulism.
Wow...just saying...when did they stop teaching common sense??:gaah:


----------



## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

JayJay, yup, read it.

Common sense died a terrible death a few years ago. Just because some government agency don't "approve" a method, don't mean it ain't safe ta do it. Simply means they ain't spent the money ta research it, er they ain't been paid enough by somebody else ta approve it.

As with anythin, proper procedure makes the practice safe, no different then the companies what sell canned butter, bacon an such.


----------



## NotAGrasshopper (Oct 25, 2010)

The_Blob said:


> nice article with reserach and many fine links to follow on this subject
> 
> To Bottle or Not To Bottle Butter « Preparedness Pro


The author of the article is misinformed. She says, "I may not be a scientist, but I do know what kills botulism: heat and oxygen; 180 degrees of heat, to be exact, for about 20- 30 minutes."

She's right on one thing: she's not a scientist.

C. botulinum spores will live right through 180 degrees - up to somewhere between 240 and 250 degrees.

Why would you post a link to someone completely unqualified to comment on the matter as support that this is a good idea?

I'm not saying that canning butter isn't doable at home. What I am saying is that everyone is doing it wrong. Generally I'd say to hell with the FDA, but on this one they're right when they condemn the practice of bottling butter as described on the interwebs.

There are two ways to eliminate botulinum as a concern:

1. Reliably get the temperature of the butter to 250 degrees. This obviously requires a pressure canner. It is difficult to know how much time is required for the entire contents of the jar to reach this temperature because fat is an insulator. *Some* amount of time will be enough but who knows how much?

2. Decrease the water activity of the aqueous portion of the butter by adding salt or acid to bring the water activity at storage temperature to < 0.97.


----------



## BayouShaman (Aug 17, 2011)

"2. Decrease the water activity of the aqueous portion of the butter by adding salt or acid to bring the water activity at storage temperature to < 0.97."


What does this mean? Add salt to your melted butter? How does this get measured? How would you determine that you had done this?


----------



## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

When these c. botulinum bacteria 'feel threatened' (sense environmental change), they envelop themselves in protective shells called 'spores' which can only be *killed* by boiling at 212° F (100° C) for at least 10 minutes. At temperatures above 140° F (60° C), c. botulinum spores *do NOT germinate*, only the spores that germinate produce the deadly botulinum toxin, although they are heat resistant.

High temperatures in a pressure canner ensure that the temp equals or exceeds 212° F (100° C) *throughout* the food, longer boil times can accomplish this as well.

Between 1975-1993, there were 543 cases of food-borne botulism in the United States(384) and Puerto Rico(159). In the early 1900s, 71% of botulism victims died, but with early diagnosis and treatment, the fatality rate had dropped to 5.5 % by 1984 and fewer than 1% by 1993. In the United States, an average of 110 cases of botulism are reported every year. Approximately 20% are food borne, 70% are infant botulism, and the rest are wound botulism.The number of cases of foodborne and infant botulism has declined slightly in recent years, but wound botulism has increased because of the wide spread use of drugs.

NotAGrasshopper is right with 'better safe than sorry', that being said... botulism does come from the soil, so keep everything (food & equipment) CLEAN & dirt-free & you'll be much less likely to be at risk.

P.S. 
the pH of homemade whole fat butter (72-86% fat) ranges from 4.8-5.6 which is pretty acidic, whereas store-bought butter has a (industrial standard?) pH of 6.2


----------



## partdeux (Aug 3, 2011)

Stupid question... but why can't you pressure can butter just to be safe?


----------



## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

partdeux said:


> Stupid question... but why can't you pressure can butter just to be safe?


as far as I know, nothing prevents that... :scratch

I don't because I make my own butter and it is slightly more acidic than store bought... :2thumb:

some people say the fat globules burst & it alters the taste... :dunno:

most of the pressure canners are busy with fruit this time of year... :beercheer:

I only started canning butter after reading it on this site, and only did a couple batches to try it out (and to put in the BOB  ) :newsign:

we eat the butter so fast, canning isn't necessary... if the neighbors' cows die? :surrender:


----------



## StrayDog (May 2, 2011)

The_Blob said:


> as far as I know, nothing prevents that... :scratch
> 
> I don't because I make my own butter and it is slightly more acidic than store bought... :2thumb:
> 
> ...


According to this POST, It would seem it can be done.

:scratch


----------



## NotAGrasshopper (Oct 25, 2010)

The_Blob said:


> When these c. botulinum bacteria 'feel threatened' (sense environmental change), they envelop themselves in protective shells called 'spores' which can only be *killed* by boiling at 212° F (100° C) for at least 10 minutes. At temperatures above 140° F (60° C), c. botulinum spores *do NOT germinate*, only the spores that germinate produce the deadly botulinum toxin, although they are heat resistant.


Botulinum spores are *not* killed at 212 degrees. At that temperature you will kill any actively growing cells and you will also denature any toxin that has been produced. That is why "they" suggest boiling canned low-acid food before eating it.

You need to heat food to above 240 degrees to kill the spores. Only a pressure canner will generate this heat.



BayouShaman said:


> What does this mean? Add salt to your melted butter? How does this get measured? How would you determine that you had done this?


It means adding at least 7 grams of salt (I use 10) per 93 ml of the "watery" portion of your butter. Salted butter already has some salt there, but how much is impossible to determine. By starting with unsalted butter and adding salt you can be sure.



StrayDog said:


> According to this POST, It would seem it can be done.


The only thing I got from that post is that the poster doesn't understand that canning low acid (i.e., low water activity) food in a water bath canner is dangerous, stupid and unnecessary.

If you're going to water bath can butter, for God's sake at least make sure it contains enough salt to prevent those spores from growing. Start with unsalted butter and using a reloading scale, add enough salt to bring the water activity (Aw) to below 0.97. This means at least a 7% (w/w) solution.


----------



## stayingthegame (Mar 22, 2011)

if the ph value of butter is part of the problem of safety, then can we raise the ph by adding something the way we do when we add vinegar to tomatoes to raise the acid levels? I am concerned with the safety of canning because I take drugs that lower my ability to fight infections. last infection left me on antibiotics for six months.


----------



## NotAGrasshopper (Oct 25, 2010)

stayingthegame said:


> if the ph value of butter is part of the problem of safety, then can we raise the ph by adding something the way we do when we add vinegar to tomatoes to raise the acid levels? I am concerned with the safety of canning because I take drugs that lower my ability to fight infections. last infection left me on antibiotics for six months.


Acid can certainly be used to *lower* the pH, but salt is more compatible with the taste of butter. If using acid, something like citric acid would be better tasting than vinegar (acetic acid). I haven't looked at using acid so I don't know how much you'd use.


----------



## NotAGrasshopper (Oct 25, 2010)

I've posted a brief article on this forum explaining how to can butter safely.


----------



## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

Hmmm...I'll have to give pressure canning butter a try. Someone else suggested to me that it wouldn't work to pressure can butter because the fats would boil over and keep the jar from sealing. I've also heard that the fat in butter IS basically a preservative but I've never heard that from a person in a scientific field. It's just "folklore" I guess?

I've been water-bath canning butter (and cheese) for years, and I realize that just because we've safely done it doesn't mean that it's a good idea or that we'll never be sickened by it. Maybe it's worked out okay for us because the canned butter is stored in a dark, cold root cellar that stays between 40 and 50 degrees (F) all year here in cold NW Montana, rather than at room temperature, and it goes into the fridge when a jar is opened. It's also usually used up in less than 6 months after is canned, since we rotate it and it's not part of our long-term food storage. Meaning, we don't have lots of it stored.

For our long-term storage we ordered a couple cans of freeze-dried butter powder. It'll definitely be a luxury if the SHTF.


----------

