# DIY Lead Acid Battery



## cowboyhermit

So eventually in long term preparedness discussion the fact that lead acid batteries used in vehicles and alternative energy systems do not last forever comes up. As long as we have some level of order I think batteries will be made, it is not a new technology (invented in 1859) and they do not require much modern technology to make.

However, in the interest of worst case scenarios and also because I think this kind of stuff is fun, I though I would start a thread about making lead acid batteries after TSHTF. Anyone who has any good info or ideas please add it to the thread, I had some good info but it seems to have disappeared into the digital abyss

First off, I have played around with this stuff before, just for fun, however it is a dangerous operation. Sulfuric or other acids are obviously to be treated with the utmost respect but there is also the danger of a short or a hydrogen gas explosion:eyebulge:

For basic tools you should have a good old battery hydrometer, every garage used to have these but they are not used much/ever anymore, something like thishttp://www.batterystuff.com/battery-products/EZBK101.html
Then you should have something to clean up, you can buy "neutralizer" but baking soda works too, and plenty of water.
It is good to have some distilled water, this will still be around in a shtf situation.
Good gloves, eye protection, long sleeved clothes, etc, etc.
A multimeter too is a must.

So basically you need some sort of acid resistant case, this usually means glass or plastic. It might be possible to reuse the case from an old battery, but sometimes they do get brittle. A glass jar will work although the shape is a bit difficult. 
One thing that does work and is relatively easy is an aquarium/like box made with acid resistant silicone. RTV silicone that you can get anywhere SHOULD work but it does not all have the same make-up so ymmv.

Then you need acid, you can buy acid but there are thousands of batteries lying around full of the stuff so you can drain it and reuse, testing it with your handy hydrometer for potency.

Ok, now we have an aquarium filled with acid, what could possibly go wrong

Lets throw some toxic heavy metals into the mix
There is still a lot of lead around these days, wheel weights, bullets, a little bit of roof flashing, oh yeah, and thousands of dead/non-functioning batteries.
The most basic design is just a flat lead plate, this does not have a lot of surface area, will not hold a charge for long, but it does "work".
Insert two plates NOT touching into your lovely acid bath and you have one cell, around 2 volts of electricity storage, you will probably want more cells than that, a standard "12V" battery has ... 6 cells, complicated huh?

So there are a million things I didn't cover in terms of making a "useful" battery. Alloy content, separators, connecting the plates, etc. If anyone wants to add go for it otherwise I will try to come back and continue at a later time.

But anyways, now everyone knows how to make a lead acid battery:laugh:

Here are a couple links that I still have
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Lead_acid_battery_construction

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~weza/


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## helicopter5472

I would like to store maybe 10 to 20 batts if I can find a manufacturer who sells them without acid. Does anyone know who sells them this way? How about the acid, does it have a shelf life.


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## LincTex

I think making something that works well for home power storage (from wind or solar sources) would be far more feasible than making something that can be used for vehicle starting purposes.


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## helicopter5472

LincTex said:


> I think making something that works well for home power storage (from wind or solar sources) would be far more feasible than making something that can be used for vehicle starting purposes.


That's what I'm looking for, "DRY" batteries for my inverter system. would like to store an extra set.


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## LincTex

helicopter5472 said:


> I would like to store maybe 10 to 20 batts if I can find a manufacturer who sells them without acid. Does anyone know who sells them this way?


http://www.enersys.com/products.asp

http://www.cdtechno.com/

Gill and Concorde Aircraft Batteries are always shipped dry, with acid separate.



helicopter5472 said:


> How about the acid, does it have a shelf life?


No, it does not.


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## helicopter5472

Thanks I will look into these companies


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## LincTex

cowboyhermit said:


> So basically you need some sort of acid resistant case, throw some toxic heavy metals into the mix.... The most basic design is just a flat lead plate...
> Insert two plates NOT touching into your lovely acid bath and you have one cell, around 2 volts of electricity storage


Close, but not quite. Two plain lead plates will not give you an anode and a cathode. The negative can be lead, but the other must be Lead Oxide:

Negative plate reaction(Anode Reaction):
Pb(s) + HSO−4(aq) → PbSO4(s) + H+(aq) + 2-e

Positive plate reaction(Cathode Reaction):
PbO2(s) + HSO−4(aq) + 3H+(aq) + 2-e → PbSO4(s) + 2H2O(l)


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## cowboyhermit

LincTex, completely correct. Now in terms of what type of oxide it is a bit tricky. 
A sheet of lead exposed to the elements will oxidize and this is enough to get a charge, however it is not impregnated into the metal.
If a person is reusing old batteries it will be easier to use the cathode and anode from there, they will have a suitable composition. There are other ways of making lead oxide though, it is not a new technology but there are different oxides to choose from.

Lead oxides used in batteries are typically a brownish colour (think rust) while pure(ish) lead is gray

There is also the process of forming which involves simply applying a voltage to the plates, this forms lead peroxide on the positive plate, it is not an instantaneous process but it improves surface area as well.

Here is a decent description from a site I posted above

"Forming is the process in which the active materials are formed on the plates. When a voltage is applied to the plates a thin film of lead peroxide is formed on the positive plate. If the charging polarity is reversed this thin film of peroxide (or PB02) will be converted to sponge lead on the negative plate. Sponge lead is a pourus form of lead. This increases the surface area available to the acid and thus increases the capacity. As this process of charging and reversal is continued the amount of sponge lead on the plates will increase. If continued indefinitely both plates will be entirely converted into sponge lead and fall to bits."

Here is a different description from an old book on the subject

"Forming. The next step is to change the paste of oxides into the active materials which make a cell operative. This is called "forming" and is really nothing but a prolonged charge, requiring several days. In some factories the plates are mounted in tanks, positive and negative plates alternating as in a cell. The positives are all connected together in one group and the negatives in another, and current passed through just as in charging a battery. In other factories the positives and negatives are formed in separate tanks against "dummy" electrodes.

The passing of the current slowly changes the mixtures of lead oxide and lead sulphate, forming brown peroxide of lead (PbO2), on the positive plate and gray spongy metallic lead on the negative. The formation by the current of lead peroxide and spongy lead on the positive and negative plates respectively would take place if the composition of the two pastes were identical. The difference in the composition of the paste for positive and negative plates is for the purpose of securing the properties of porosity and physical condition best suited to each."


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## Tirediron

I don't want to de rail this thread, but has anyone heard of some one cleaning out existing (modern automotive or rv )batteries.??


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## cowboyhermit

Tirediron, this can be done and is much more economical in time and money if it works, but it is not as fun as reinventing the wheel 

There used to be a place in Edmonton that re-furbished batteries, they made them as well, but that was years ago. Often if a battery is not holding a charge it is debris stuck in the wrong places or just built up too thick and could be fixed. We have a battery charger with a "desulfator" function that can sometimes fix this kind of thing (haven't had it for long enough to really tell).
Other times though things have cracked inside, are simply too corroded, or some other problem. They definitely don't make them in a way that makes repairing them easy.


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## Tirediron

I have heard a theory that a person could drain and flush an old battery, then soak it upside down in a hot water bath to melt the glue that holds the tank to the cap, but I haven't seen the process happen.


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## LincTex

Tirediron said:


> then soak it upside down in a hot water bath to melt the glue that holds the tank to the cap, but I haven't seen the process happen.


I have some old ones that might be worth a try, but really it looks to me more like the top and case are melted together on the seam, not so much like glue. Pretty tough to get apart.


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## BlueShoe

I don't want to derail either, but didn't see another thread to add this to. If it's out of order, please ignore. I appreciate the info on making lead acid batteries. I can definitely see the need for this info being posted, so don't take my post as an affront. I wonder how hard it is to find one of those antique glass battery cases to make a battery?



helicopter5472 said:


> That's what I'm looking for, "DRY" batteries for my inverter system. would like to store an extra set.





Tirediron said:


> I don't want to derail this thread, but has anyone heard of some one cleaning out existing (modern automotive or rv )batteries.??


I'd be interested in doing this with *NEW* automotive or deep cell batteries. Buy the batteries, empty the contents, flush with neutralizer base and dry thoroughly to prevent any plate erosion/buildup on the platelets.

Batteries just keep going up in price. Buying now for later is money in the bank. Sams Club/Costco golf cart batteries stored for later are an interest to me. I don't want to salvage old batteries to attempt to reuse them, and current batteries use a sonic welder to bond the top to bottom, I believe. You'd have to cut them apart and glue back. I would expect fair to poor results for the effort. Current manufacturing processes make delicate plates suspended from a bar and are separated with thin sock to keep them from shorting against one another. Handling them would further damage the plate dividers or the attachment of the plates to the bar. You'd end up with more dead cells than you started with would be my guess.

I'm off to check the price of the aircraft batteries shipping dry, but expect the cost to be extreme. ETA: Wow, I just checked priced for dry aircraft batteries and they are way, way high in price by my quick search. Nearly $300 shipped. Electrolyte sold separately. Looks like money way ahead to buy off the shelf, drain, flush, dry thoroughly and store.


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## helicopter5472

So buy a bunch of new ones, turn upside down and drain all acid, (save acid in large glass water bottle), rinse battery out with distilled water several times, turn upside down again, use dry air to dry inside plates. Or could you drain acid and rinse with alcohol. It would dry up on its own quickly???


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## BlueShoe

Distilled water wouldn't be complete enough in flushing for my piece of mind. A 'base' that does what baking soda does would be choice. Baking soda wouldn't be a good choice because it won't flush well enough. It's a good topical on terminals but I wouldn't trust it to come completely free inside the tight tolerances and confines of a battery cell. Just have to find another liquid base and then maybe a third flush with distilled water.

Will the diluted acid store after drained from the new batteries? 

EDIT: What happens to these batteries with a charge on them that get drained? I assume a person needs to discharge them completely?

For making new batteries, there are antique glass battery cases still around. This will start an argument; remember the statement about not storing batteries on concrete because they will go dead? It's false. You don't store batteries on concrete because the cases used to be made of glass and the case would chip. That's directly from battery training video seminar I received from a manufacturer that I sold for. Flame on.


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## cowboyhermit

The acid will store perfectly as long as you have a container that is up to the task.


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## BlueShoe

I've seen the statement that acid will store, but will diluted acid store once it's mixed with distilled water and then drained from the charged batteries.

I guess the battery/sulfuric acid is already diluted to a certain percentage when it's installed in the battery?
I can be thick when it comes to covering all the possibilities, so sorry in advance. 

The process of making is, fill with acid/water and charge. So unmanufacturing should be discharge and drain/flush immediately?


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## BlueShoe

Using basic chemistry I guess it's a matter of measuring pH and treating until you get to the desired level.

2.0 Acid and Base Neutralization
2.1 *Acids*

If you wish to dilute an acid with water before neutralizing it with a base (e.g., sodium hydroxide, potassium hydroxide or sodium bicarbonate), always add acid to water; never add water to acid.

Perform all neutralizations within a fume hood while wearing nitrile rubber gloves, a lab coat, and eye protection.

2.1.1 Hydrochloric Acid

1. Slowly add hydrochloric acid to a container of cold water to form a 1:10 dilution of acid to water.

2. Slowly add a 1M potassium hydroxide, sodium hydroxide, or sodium carbonate solution until the pH is in the range of 6.0 to 8.0.

3. Flush down the drain with an excess of cold water.

*2.1.2 Sulfuric Acid

1. Slowly add sulfuric acid to a container of ice-cold water to form a 1:10 dilution of acid to water.

2. Slowly add sodium carbonate until the pH is in the range of 6.0 to 8.0. 

3. Flush down the drain with an excess of cold water. *

2.1.3 Acetic Acid

1. Slowly add acetic acid to a container of cold water to form a 1:10 dilution of acid to water.

2. Slowly add a 1M solution of sodium hydroxide or sodium carbonate until the pH is in the range of 6.0 to 8.0.

3. Flush down the drain with an excess of cold water.

2.1.4 Phosphoric Acid

1. Slowly add phosphoric acid to a container of cold water to form a 1:10 dilution of acid to water.

2. While stirring, slowly add sodium carbonate until the pH is in the range of 6.0 to 8.0.

3. Flush down the drain with an excess of cold water.

*2.2  Bases*

2.2.1 Potassium Hydroxide

1. While stirring, slowly add potassium hydroxide into a container of ice water to form a 1:10 dilution of base to water.

2. Slowly add 1M hydrochloric acid about 1 ml at a time until the pH is between 6.0 and 8.0.

3. Flush down the drain with an excess of cold water.

2.2.2 Sodium Hydroxide

1. While stirring, slowly add sodium hydroxide into a container of ice water to form a 1:10 dilution of base to water.

2. Slowly add 1M hydrochloric acid about 1 ml at a time until the pH is between 6.0 and 8.0.

3. Flush down the drain with an excess of cold water.

2.2.3 Calcium Hydroxide

1. While stirring, slowly add calcium hydroxide into a container of ice water to form a 1:10 dilution of base to water.

2. Slowly add 1M hydrochloric acid about 1 ml at a time until the pH is between 6.0 and 8.0.

3. Flush down the drain with an excess of cold water.


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## helicopter5472

Or get a box of acid from auto parts store before SHTF, I believe lead acid batteries use sulfuric acid, and would have no clue on how to figure out all that stuff you said above. 

I'm sure that it wouldn't end well with some sort of explosion leveling half my State, I would be burned beyond needing just a bottle of Jack Daniels, I'm sure it would include some sort of divorce, and the need to buy a whole lot of new things, I don't believe that Obamacare will cover any of this, and trying to wipe my butt will result in major pain, however the plus side is Obama says I don't need an ID to vote.


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## BlueShoe

Hey, you gotta go sometime. 

Sounds like getting the replacement acid solution is easy if it's on the shelf at parts stores.

Getting the base solution to neutralize the battery case/plates should be pretty easy too. You can get test strips to measure the pH. Testing by filling the case with distilled water/base solution, letting it sit and contacting the strip with solution.


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## Tirediron

If you go far enough up the supply chain you should be able to get dry batteries, a lot of ATV batteries are shipped dry , along with a tank of acid. 
Automotive and industrial batteries must be dry at some point.


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## BlueShoe

If someone placed an order for enough of them, it could be done.
I know two fellars who worked at a major manufacturer of batteries for a good while. They said they couldn't get them like that. It would take a large order from a supply house to order them that way if it's possible, because they were sealed batteries at that plant. It might be easy to retool for that, but they said they didn't do that there. That plant has since gone out of the country. I'll ask them again if it was an automotive battery plant or what kind. I can't remember.


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