# Topic of the week



## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

In this tread what I'm hopping to accomplish is this, Once a week myself or someone here is to post a question of the week, then we debate it, and at the end of the week take the best of all responses and do a write up on it, then submit it to the mods/admin to approve the submit entry.

All opinions here and even the new prepper has valued input. All prepers have something to learn even if they have been doing it for 4 decades :surrenderr more. So please have fun, even be silly, but most importantly be respectful of all.

All standard forum rules apply, i don't want this thread to have any politics in it at all. As far as I'm concerned this is a learning thread and hope everyone else sees it that way.


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

This is my question of the week, Whats the perfect Bug Out Location BOL. 


So what i have in mind is Type of house, size of house, were its located, how much land, and other things.


This is my perfect BOL, a 600 sf log house in the foothills of a Mountain, a slow moving river in behind the house, on a 50 acre plot of land with lots of trees to hide the house, lots of hunting and fishing, lots of garden space a green house,solar panels, and a good chainsaw for winter heat. 



Well that's what i think is a good BOL, all input would be greatly appreciated, then a write up will be done and submitted. 



Ps i will need help doing the write up from time to time.


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Flight1630 said:


> In this tread what I'm hopping to accomplish is this, Once a week myself or someone here is to post a question of the week, then we debate it, and at the end of the week take the best of all responses and do a write up on it, then submit it to the mods/admin to approve the submit entry.
> 
> All opinions here and even the new prepper has valued input. All prepers have something to learn even if they have been doing it for 4 decades :surrenderr more. So please have fun, even be silly, but most importantly be respectful of all.
> 
> All standard forum rules apply, i don't want this thread to have any politics in it at all. As far as I'm concerned this is a learning thread and hope everyone else sees it that way.


Flight, I think this a great concept and if it moves forward, let me know how i can be of assistance. I vote--- go for it.


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## SewingMachine (Mar 26, 2017)

Flight1630 said:


> This is my question of the week, Whats the perfect Bug Out Location BOL.
> 
> So what i have in mind is Type of house, size of house, were its located, how much land, and other things.
> 
> ...


Flight,

That IS the perfect BOL. It's my dream property.

I can never afford it...lol.

I see no problem with 50 acres. I think that's a size where you could hear trespassers, chainsaws, and see smoke from fires. Just kind of keep an eye on things. If it was 200 acres, before you know it you could be out hunting and come across a camp that's been there for a week or two.

I would want my house to mobile. That's what I want now. I can see many scenarios where it would be really useful to be able to start up your house and just drive off. But, I have never owned land, so I have no connections to it. Maybe if I own something, I will decide to stay and fight, people or mother nature.

So yeah, your choice of BOL seems like the bees knees to me.

Should we (can we) come up with a list of names, or a que for discussion subjects? Go by post count or something? It would be helpful to plan and research a topic, and know approx. when it was time to post the subject of discussion.


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

SewingMachine said:


> Flight,
> 
> That IS the perfect BOL. It's my dream property.
> 
> ...


Great comments and very valid points. This idea has tremendous potential but it needs to be properly indexed for future searches. I can see many upsides and very little or zero negatives. I think it would be helpful if the MOD's and Admin provide a little insight on how to establish the most effective format for future searches. I think we have a winner here.


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## SouthCentralUS (Nov 11, 2012)

I would rather have a house more fireproof. Maybe rock with a metal roof. No trees or anything flammable close to the house. Just raised beds - also fireproof.


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Flight1630 said:


> This is my question of the week, Whats the perfect Bug Out Location BOL.
> 
> So what i have in mind is Type of house, size of house, were its located, how much land, and other things.
> 
> ...


Flight, I like the concept of your first question. If I may, I think it might need to be narrowed a bit. The question could be reduced down to state, territory. I don't have many trees /forest in my neck of the wood or actually lack of the woods is the point. Question: What type of BOL would be best in a Desert climate or Mountain climate (white fluffy stuff climate), prairie / flat land location and then why do you think it would be best. Just a suggestion, this is your thread, so run with it, I am just enjoying the additional information.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

SouthCentralUS said:


> I would rather have a house more fireproof. Maybe rock with a metal roof. No trees or anything flammable close to the house. Just raised beds - also fireproof.


OK, don't want to nitpick, but considerations should take into consideration "family size," because this is going to determine the size "home" you need, as well considering HOW you're gonna feed them over the long haul. (Stored food, crops, animals, that sort of thing.)
1. 50 acres is a pretty good ballpark.....small enough to make your perimeter observable from a central location, large enough to let you nail any bad guys before they get too close. Would add "dogs" - - four footed alarm systems don't hurt!
2. Don't like the idea of a "mobile" home (what, a large RV, camper, etc.?). (If the shtf, and you're bugged out, you don't want to THEN start moving around! Exposes you to more potential danger.)
3. Solar, off-grid, yes, but also have a back-up generator (Even the solid state, no moving parts, equipment is subject to go kaflooey)....One thing you don't want to be without is power.
4. And then there's always the old standard....*location, location, location*! WHERE is that 50 acres gonna be??

Just a few thoughts, but your basic plan seems pretty good, and doable.
:2thumb::beercheer:


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

tmttactical said:


> Great comments and very valid points. This idea has tremendous potential but it needs to be properly indexed for future searches. I can see many upsides and very little or zero negatives. I think it would be helpful if the MOD's and Admin provide a little insight on how to establish the most effective format for future searches. I think we have a winner here.


Yes if the mods/admin could provide insight on how to make this better would be greatly appreciated. Even if it means "question of the week second try" lol


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

tmttactical said:


> Flight, I like the concept of your first question. If I may, I think it might need to be narrowed a bit. The question could be reduced down to state, territory. I don't have many trees /forest in my neck of the wood or actually lack of the woods is the point. Question: What type of BOL would be best in a Desert climate or Mountain climate (white fluffy stuff climate), prairie / flat land location and then why do you think it would be best. Just a suggestion, this is your thread, so run with it, I am just enjoying the additional information.


Ok that's a good idea. So maybe what's the best location for a BOL in the dessert, Forrest, farm land, and as some of you call it fluffy white stuff also known as SNOW.


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Flight1630 said:


> Yes if the mods/admin could provide insight on how to make this better would be greatly appreciated. Even if it means "question of the week second try" lol


You have come up with a great concept. The first steps in any new venture are the most difficult. Given a few trail and error steps, your idea is going to be a massive help. imagine where a novice can go to a specific are on eh forum and look up best BOL in -- Desert climate for a family or best BOL for a mountain region for a family. You have hit on a outstanding concept, don't let the bumps discourage you. I am currently working on the 8th, version of the "THH" and I am sure more versions will follow. Go for it, after all you only been married 14 years, you still got time. artydance:


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

First consideration is location. Wherever you're used to living is a big plus. Detailed knowledge of the location & it's wildlife, climate, dangers, & assets could very well be the difference between life & death. However, if you're looking to move, a place where food & water is plentiful would be ideal. Two growing seasons would double your chances of not starving to death. It might be wise to avoid extreme cold, (stores of wood & fuel will eventually run out & chopping wood by hand burns a lot of calories plus a limited amount of food can be grown.). 

Having an RV & the ability to bug out with it would ideal in some situations but it's harder to heat or cool one without electricity. Having both an RV & a house with a stove & Windows would be even better. 

Size matters. We all know that. You have a much better chance of not killing the family & friends you're surviving with if there's enough room for everyone to have some personal space & be able to get away from each other. The size you need depends on who you expect. 

We all know east Texas is best. Heck, in addition to abundant wildlife, lots of water, & two growing seasons, we have enough salt to last for thousands of years. Anyone else got salt mines? :kiss:


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

tsrwivey said:


> First consideration is location. Wherever you're used to living is a big plus. Detailed knowledge of the location & it's wildlife, climate, dangers, & assets could very well be the difference between life & death. However, if you're looking to move, a place where food & water is plentiful would be ideal. Two growing seasons would double your chances of not starving to death. It might be wise to avoid extreme cold, (stores of wood & fuel will eventually run out & chopping wood by hand burns a lot of calories plus a limited amount of food can be grown.). Having an RV & the ability to bug out with it would ideal in some situations but it's harder to heat or cool one without electricity. Having both an RV & a house with a stove & Windows would be even better. Size matters. We all know that. You have a much better chance of not killing the family & friends you're surviving with if there's enough room for everyone to have some personal space & be able to get away from each other. The size you need depends on who you expect.
> We all know east Texas is best. Heck, in addition to abundant wildlife, lots of water, & two growing seasons, we have enough salt to last for thousands of years. Anyone else got salt mines? :kiss:


Barberton, Ohio has salt mines....nanner, nanner! (quoting another member):rofl:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Bar...HBhLnTAhUD2SYKHSNiAmIQ7AkIUA&biw=1242&bih=602

Seriously, though, East Texas is great! Like the Lufkin area, but out away from town. Y'all have a good one!
http://www.east-texas.com/
Great starting point for anyone interested in East Texas. :wave:


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

Pessimistic2 said:


> Barberton, Ohio has salt mines....nanner, nanner! (quoting another member):rofl:
> https://www.google.com/search?q=Bar...HBhLnTAhUD2SYKHSNiAmIQ7AkIUA&biw=1242&bih=602
> 
> Seriously, though, East Texas is great! Like the Lufkin area, but out away from town. Y'all have a good one!
> ...


Too darn hot for me that far south lol


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Flight1630 said:


> Too darn hot for me that far south lol


What, are you a snowman? Said the human reptile. :rofl:


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

tmttactical said:


> What, are you a snowman? Said the human reptile. :rofl:


Lol I like that


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## Starcreek (Feb 4, 2015)

tsrwivey said:


> First consideration is location. Wherever you're used to living is a big plus. Detailed knowledge of the location & it's wildlife, climate, dangers, & assets could very well be the difference between life & death.


This was my first thought when I started reading this thread. I've often thought I would love to live in Alaska or Wyoming... a long way away from everybody. But I am unfamiliar with the climate, and as you say that could be the difference between life and death. So, knowledge of the area would be important. Stay in your element.

Multiple growing seasons are good.

Here are a few ideas that occur to me: Have a good, flowing spring, with nobody uphill from you (to contaminate the water table). That eliminates the need for a pump and allows the use of a spring house for refrigeration.

An earth-sheltered house would not only be less visible from above but in a pinch could get by with little or no heat in the winter and no cooling in the summer. A fallout shelter could easily be dug into the hillside in the back of the house.

If you had the 50 acres mentioned in the OP, you could put sheep/goat fence around it, leave a thick buffer of trees all around the perimeter (inside the fence) to block the view of anyone passing by. Then build a second fence about 50 yards inside the outer fence. Put a herd of goats or cattle in the outer area, with a pair of livestock guardian dogs to protect them -- and discourage trespassers. Anatolian Shepherds are the best (i.e., most aggressive) in that regard. Put a "hunt club" sign on the fence every few yards, and nobody would suspect someone was living in there.


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## bacpacker (Jul 15, 2011)

Great idea for the thread.

IMO, there are several factors to consider. How many folks to account for being top of the list. For just the wife and I, we want to be in or near the mountains. That limits us to a few states for starters. We love east Tennessee, so it would take a lot to get us out of here. But Idaho, parts of Montana, Wyoming, and Alaska would be suitable, but would all be a drastic change of pace for us.
Some things that we don't want to do without are water, preferably springs and a year round creek. I want abundant water to drink, irrigate if needed, and water livestock. Plus I want to be off grid and consider a micro hydro system to be the top of the heap as far as renewable power goes.
Plenty or property to grow veggies, grains, livestock, and food for them, timber, both for building and for firewood. Plus a buffer just because. I think 50-200 acres would be about right.
For our shelter, I would prefer an underground, or at least partial underground home. if done correctly, they are very energy efficient for both heating and cooling. Provide good protection for most any weather event and probably some against druggies/looters showing up. Size for the house IMO would range from something like 250 to 750 square feet per person. Storage indoors would have a lot to say about that.
Well that's my .02 for this post. Can't wait to see what others have to say.


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## Idaholady (Apr 24, 2010)

Having a mountain retreat would be nice, IF you are familiar with the climate and know what you need to do to get through a winter if there is snow. It would be nice to have that spring, but, how are you going to store water through the winter? Your water source may be frozen under a lot of snow and ice...then what? Do you have a pick or something to get down to it?

And for food; will there be a big area to store a winter's worth of food for you and your family? Winter can be four or so months and that is a lot of food to store. Sure hope you have a large supply of firewood; that is under cover and easy to access through four to six feet of snow. And, if you have animals, will you be climbing through four to six feet of snow to get to their pens to feed them? What about food for them during the winter months? And what are you going to do when that toilet backs up because the ground had frozen outside? What about toilet paper when you family is down to the last roll? Oh, oh, not so good...

Oh boy, you might want to find a more mild climate during the colder months. The other thing; will you be able to grow some of your food in the mountains during the better season?


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## oldasrocks (Jun 30, 2012)

Be careful of earth sheltered homes. I saw a lot of mistakes made. Earth will keep you at 55 degrees. You can't pour enough heat out to keep warm. The other problem is concrete seeps moisture.
You need to insulate away from the earth. Ideally is two waterproofed concrete walls encompassing 4 inches of foam insulation. You mix a chemical with the concrete to make it waterproof which also adds strength. Bar channel ceiling with concrete on top then a couple feet of dirt. Only the face of the house shows. I won't go into other details about the floor plan that I have drawn.

A few back acres is fine preferably in a frming community. Same as here-surrounded by thick blackberry bushes and other fun things. I do like the idea of a year around spring.


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

oldasrocks said:


> Be careful of earth sheltered homes. I saw a lot of mistakes made. Earth will keep you at 55 degrees. You can't pour enough heat out to keep warm. The other problem is concrete seeps moisture.
> You need to insulate away from the earth. Ideally is two waterproofed concrete walls encompassing 4 inches of foam insulation. You mix a chemical with the concrete to make it waterproof which also adds strength. Bar channel ceiling with concrete on top then a couple feet of dirt. Only the face of the house shows. I won't go into other details about the floor plan that I have drawn.
> 
> A few back acres is fine preferably in a frming community. Same as here-surrounded by thick blackberry bushes and other fun things. I do like the idea of a year around spring.


i would love to know more about the chemical you add to the concrete to make it waterproof and any other information about the problems of structures built underground. All information is greatly appreciated. I was looking into concrete forms with 2 inches of foam on both sides, so I am very interested to know your reason for 4 inches. Not a challenge, just curious why the difference. Thanks for sharing your post.


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

One thing I never even thought of was a rv or mobile house. What's the pro con compared to a unmovable house cabin for a BOL?


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## SewingMachine (Mar 26, 2017)

Pro's for me are:

Mobile (obviously). I can move to another location completely, or just move it to different places on the land.

Already Built! Can I build a cabin? Sure. But I would rather not. A camper has everything I need, is easy to set up for solar (at least I think it would be), and a decent one would be ready to go.

Separate from my main vehicle. I can drop it off, and scout ahead, without towing my house

Cons

Not very defensible. A .22 is going to zing right through in a lot of places.

Tires! I would have to go scrounge good tires if I had a flat, and depending on when it happened that might be pretty darn inconvenient.

Hard to conceal. I could throw a camo net over it I suppose, but it is never going to be as low profile as a small building tucked away half in a hillside.

Prone to cold weather problems. Campers can be hard to insulate in cold weather, and can develop leaks that are a pain to track down. I want an Airstream, because the construction is less leak prone, and you dont have to pull the roof, and replace the membrane every 10 or 15 years. 

I am sure there are more cons, but the biggest pro for me is the mobility. I don't like my neighbors? I move. Camper is getting hot? I move it to some shade. Bored of the view out the kitchen window? Move. And i don't have to pack and repack, all my stuff is right there.

Throw up a cheap sunroom, roll out the awning, and drink some hot coffee with a little "flavor" on a nice june morning. I'm in!


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Idaholady said:


> Having a mountain retreat would be nice, IF you are familiar with the climate and know what you need to do to get through a winter if there is snow. It would be nice to have that spring, but, how are you going to store water through the winter? Your water source may be frozen under a lot of snow and ice...then what? Do you have a pick or something to get down to it? And for food; will there be a big area to store a winter's worth of food for you and your family? Winter can be four or so months and that is a lot of food to store. Sure hope you have a large supply of firewood; that is under cover and easy to access through four to six feet of snow. And, if you have animals, will you be climbing through four to six feet of snow to get to their pens to feed them? What about food for them during the winter months? And what are you going to do when that toilet backs up because the ground had frozen outside? What about toilet paper when you family is down to the last roll? Oh, oh, not so good...Oh boy, you might want to find a more mild climate during the colder months. The other thing; will you be able to grow some of your food in the mountains during the better season?


All of the above are very valid questions, and SOME have played a big part in my BOL. Others have yet to be decided! Particularly the "animal thing!"
Water for the winter....(and yes, the creek WILL be frozen, no doubt about that)....the deep well, I'm not 100% sure of, as I have yet to actually SPEND a winter there. This is one of the "big worry areas" - - been working on this BOL for 25 years, NEVER spent a winter there...so I don't KNOW how that will go. I have two water sources...creek, and the deep well. I have water storage (bladder type) in a shed, and HOPEFULLY enough heat going in to keep it from freezing. "In-house water storage" is kinda small, and probably would NOT last the entire winter.
The "animal thing" is really the biggie....there are no animals there yet, but I am thinking in terms of chickens, ducks, goats, MAYBE pigs...no large critters like cattle, horses or donkeys. This is one of the things I need to work on later this summer and fall, when my brother and I fly in the final loads of equipment upgrades, spare parts, etc. I do have three, fairly large "fenced in" areas, with sheds, which I HOPE will do for the chickens, ducks, goats...gonna have to work on the "pig thing." (I am not a farmer, and what I don't know about chickens, ducks, goats and pigs would fill volumes.) I have all the "instruction books," but instructions and reality can be very different!

Food storage (for me) is not a problem....there's only "me" to feed people food, and storage space for dog food, and the chickens, ducks, goats is not a problem....the pigs, I don't know....the pig thing is still up in the air.

The valley is in one of those weird micro-climate areas....gets cold (freezing), but not really that much snow, and there is a good southeast exposure to the sun. North, West, East, mountains/cliffs, and MOST of the wind goes right over top of me, not that much at ground level. Water lines are wrapped in insulation, hopefully will not freeze. Toilet/sewage heads into a huge septic tank, and if the line freezes, yes, could be a bit of a problem. Line is wrapped with insulation, but who knows....I haven't spent a winter there yet to find out if either the water or sewage line will freeze up. TP and other supplies not a problem, I have LOTS of storage space, and supplies like that are already in place.

Aside from the upgrades/spare parts, the biggie to "put everything in place" is gonna be the animals (which can't be flown in until I actually take up residence...the weasels, foxes, mountain lions, bears, coyotes, and God knows what else would have them all for breakfast, lunch and dinner, with no one there, and there's just gonna be the dogs and me to look out for them).

The second "biggie" is simply how is the place gonna fare during the winter....are all the water/sewage lines gonna freeze up despite the insulation? Will the water/fuel bladders freeze up despite being in semi-heated sheds? Will the fuel lines to the generator freeze up, despite being insulated? I don't know.

Growing season is moderate...pretty much late May through September. Gardening shouldn't be a problem, but I'm not a farmer, and HOPEFULLY all those DIY manuals I have will get me through! Gonna be a challenge.

First winter I spend there will answer the questions....may need to make some changes, may not....just have to wait and see on that. The "animal thing" is the real buggaroo....."predators-R-us".....and I'm not at all sure just the dogs (two) and I can deal with that....there are a LOT of predators!

I plan on taking up residence there full time (final "retirement," so to speak) next Spring....the first year will tell me if I've got it together, and if not, then some changes will have to be made. The "animal thing" has me more concerned than anything else....I'm not a farmer, like I said, and I don't want to end up getting a bunch of chickens, ducks, goats, and maybe pigs, massacred because of my ignorance! 
:dunno::scratch

Anyone wants to weigh in here, feel free....I KNOW I'm ignorant!!!


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

I put my thoughts in bold red. keep in mind i was a farm kid over 20 years ago and thats what i remember. another thought with your well my dad had a pump at the bottom with a hose that was about 10 or so feet in the air so that it would drain out once pump was off.












Pessimistic2 said:


> All of the above are very valid questions, and SOME have played a big part in my BOL. Others have yet to be decided! Particularly the "animal thing!"
> Water for the winter....(and yes, the creek WILL be frozen,*Will it be frozen right to bottom?* no doubt about that)....the deep well, I'm not 100% sure of, as I have yet to actually SPEND a winter there. This is one of the "big worry areas" - - been working on this BOL for 25 years, NEVER spent a winter there...so I don't KNOW how that will go. I have two water sources...creek, and the deep well* Should be**ok, my dad used to have a well at farm that 15 or so feet down in well was a cover which was about 5 feet above waterline, so he used to throw 15 feet of snow or so down well to insulate *. I have water storage (bladder type) in a shed, and HOPEFULLY enough heat going in to keep it from freezing. "In-house water storage" is kinda small, and probably would NOT last the entire winter.
> The "animal thing" is really the biggie....there are no animals there yet, but I am thinking in terms of chickens, ducks, goats, MAYBE pigs...no large critters like cattle, horses or donkeys. This is one of the things I need to work on later this summer and fall, when my brother and I fly in the final loads of equipment upgrades, spare parts, etc. I do have three, fairly large "fenced in" areas, with sheds, which I HOPE will do for the chickens, ducks, goats...gonna have to work on the "pig thing." (I am not a farmer, and what I don't know about chickens, ducks, goats and pigs would fill volumes.) I have all the "instruction books," but instructions and reality can be very different! *One year our creek froze right through to bottom so my dad let cattle eat snow, they lived*
> 
> ...


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Flight1630 said:


> I put my thoughts in bold red. keep in mind i was a farm kid over 20 years ago and thats what i remember. another thought with your well my dad had a pump at the bottom with a hose that was about 10 or so feet in the air so that it would drain out once pump was off.


Shortened your post, hope you don't mind.

1. Frozen to the bottom? Don't know yet, have never spent the winter there. It is a fast running creek, mostly 2'-4' deep....It may freeze up completely.
2. OK, the well should be fine then.
3. Snow for water is an option, but maybe not much...the place doesn't actually get all that much snow from what I can tell.....cold, yes, snow, not so much. (Based on Google Earth observation....as I said, I've never actually spent the winter there.)
4. Buildings/sheds are all insulated, R-12 for the outbuildings/sheds, and R-30+ in-home. Water-sewage lines/fuel lines, wrapped in fiberglass batting insulation, R-7, lines are all under-ground. HOPEFULLY this is enough.
5. Gasoline anti-freeze will be going with me next Spring, but not much there runs on gasoline(gang mower, roto-tiller, post-hole drill, pretty much it) .....generator is diesel, and the Jet Ranger drinks JP-8.

Thanks for the input!

Envious? Don't be, just yet. Theory is one thing, and how this works out in REALITY may be a whole different kettle of fish!!!:dunno::scratch:wave:


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

River probably freeze through, might want to consider to to get some heat wire for pipes if you have a reliable power source. had to look up JP-8 fuel, wiki says it has anti-icing additives and other stuff in it, so should be good. as far as minimal snow might be able to cut out ice blocks and heat up if you have lots of firewood.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Caribou said:


> The stream will freeze on the top. I don't know your stream but many will have a significant flow under the ice. You can dig a hole in the stream and bury a tank or a sand filter below the freeze line. I lived on a river that froze every winter. We called it the "river road". I would drive my car, to other villages, on the river. I have seen road graders working the ice road, loaded dump trucks, and tractor trailer rigs headed to some village. I gave an ambulance to a village. They drove it 150 miles up river for their ambulance squad. People would drill holes in the ice to fish. The pond in front of my house, really just a wide spot in a small stream, had beavers and they swam under the ice to feed. It was not uncommon to see extended periods of -40*. Water and sewer lines benefit from insulation but if they are buried below the frost line that is the best. If your frost line is two feet down and you water and sewer are three feet down, no problem. Gasoline lines will not freeze unless you have water get into them. The gel point on the turbine fuel/Jet A for your chopper is about -70* plus or minus depending on the batch. If you expect -60*F or colder get an MSDS on your fuel oil. I don't expect that you would have #2 diesel but if you do you will need to put in an anti gel additive.


Thanks for the input!

The JP-8 should be fine, likewise the diesel (D-1). Cold, yes, but not -40!! (MAYBE -10/-20 at most, for very short periods.) Don't know how deep the frost line is but water/sewage lines are 2-2 1/2 ft deep, fuel lines about
1 1/2 ft. Creek, I don't know, it's a fast moving creek, maybe 25'-35' wide, but it's only 2'-4' deep. Never saw any Beavers or Muskrats. Trout, yes!!


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## sgtusmc98 (Sep 8, 2013)

I know everyone can't do this but living at your BOL would be ideal, it's hard to produce your own food and just moving in an emergency and trying to start farming would be extremely difficult. I read once that pioneers generally had a 16 acre garden, one for the family (5) and 15 acres for the livestock. 

I have 55 acres that I'm trying to develop but one of the greatest assets I feel like I have is thousands of acres of undeveloped land adjoining mine, that land isn't mine so I don't do anything on it but if SHTF bad enough hopefully I will first maintain my own land then secondly I have the other for looking for wild edibles. The Depression tells me there will be no deer after a shtf event but trapping may be available after any die off. 

If the plan is for TEOTWAWKI being way away from civilization would be the best, like in Alaska or Canada where supplies are flown in twice a year but most of us aren't that committed. The desert in the Midwest would be great if you could survive on it and were far enough away from any roads so travelers couldn't see you.

My simple answer to the question of the perfect BOL would be one where you lived so you knew the environment, the neighbors, had no travel time which would take the guess work out of when to bug out, you could already live in practice as you would after a fall,and if you were already there it would be hard for someone to say they were their first if the belief In deeds has deteriorated.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

*SgtUSMC98...*

The "gardening part" is going to be a challenge with just me & the dogs there. Land, I've got aplenty...I own the entire valley. The problem here is how large a garden can my soon-to-be 71 year old a$$ can handle effectively, and how much of that garden is going to be eaten by critters/birds! I am a confirmed Loner/Isolationist, ultra-paranoid old geezer, but I have to admit there are disadvantages to that....definitely sets an upper limit as to what you can pull off. "Gardening equipment" consists of a large roto-tiller, and the garden tractor used to pull the gang mower. Gonna be interesting, since I've never so much as planted a flowerbed! :scratch:dunno:


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Pessimistic2 said:


> The "gardening part" is going to be a challenge with just me & the dogs there. Land, I've got aplenty...I own the entire valley. The problem here is how large a garden can my soon-to-be 71 year old a$$ can handle effectively, and how much of that garden is going to be eaten by critters/birds! I am a confirmed Loner/Isolationist, ultra-paranoid old geezer, but I have to admit there are disadvantages to that....definitely sets an upper limit as to what you can pull off. "Gardening equipment" consists of a large roto-tiller, and the garden tractor used to pull the gang mower. Gonna be interesting, since I've never so much as planted a flowerbed! :scratch:dunno:


Pess, Gardening is back breaking work. if you are going to be the person growing and harvesting --- I would recommend raised beds to at least waist level. Weeding and harvesting is a lot easier on the body when you don't have to spend hours bent over. I would have recommended you investigate aquaponics but freezing temperatures might rule this out. Enclosures and heaters to maintain proper temps (water and air), could negate the value.

I certainly agree and applaud your preparations, I would be concerned with your hands on skill level. This is not stone throwing as I don't have any experience in these areas either. You and I are close in age, I win the disability battle, but the challenge is not the isolation but lack of on site support. One accident with ax or chain saw and there is nobody there to assist. Ever tried to apply a tourniquet, one handed/ with your non-dominate hand? How about stitching a cut on your back or even applying medication to the open wound on your back? You are doing an amazing job of prepping for things you can foresee but it is the unforeseen that will kill you (Literally). Bo and Lilly are great but until they learn to use the emergency radio, You may want to consider adding a human, as disgusting as that is. LOL You are self reliant, so the isolation is not a problem, just the surprises. Gopher hole, loose rock, infected chicken bite (okay we all know they peck, I just making sure you all were paying attention).

You don't have to invite a village but you really may want to add a second qualified person, if not for you -- how about Bo and Lilly? JMHO


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

tmttactical said:


> Pess, Gardening is back breaking work. if you are going to be the person growing and harvesting --- I would recommend raised beds to at least waist level. Weeding and harvesting is a lot easier on the body when you don't have to spend hours bent over. I would have recommended you investigate aquaponics but freezing temperatures might rule this out. Enclosures and heaters to maintain proper temps (water and air), could negate the value.
> I certainly agree and applaud your preparations, I would be concerned with your hands on skill level. This is not stone throwing as I don't have any experience in these areas either. You and I are close in age, I win the disability battle, but the challenge is not the isolation but lack of on site support. One accident with ax or chain saw and there is nobody there to assist. Ever tried to apply a tourniquet, one handed/ with your non-dominate hand? How about stitching a cut on your back or even applying medication to the open wound on your back? You are doing an amazing job of prepping for things you can foresee but it is the unforeseen that will kill you (Literally). Bo and Lilly are great but until they learn to use the emergency radio, You may want to consider adding a human, as disgusting as that is. LOL You are self reliant, so the isolation is not a problem, just the surprises. Gopher hole, loose rock, infected chicken bite (okay we all know they peck, I just making sure you all were paying attention). You don't have to invite a village but you really may want to add a second qualified person, if not for you -- how about Bo and Lilly? JMHO


Yeah, it ain't the stuff you "plan for" that will nail you....it's the "surprise. guess what just happened" stuff that is a killer. If my brother/family don't head my way, I may have to reconsider the "extra human" option, though that DOESN'T really appeal to me much (well, actually, not at all )....

Aqua/hydroponics not an option....I'd need a frickin' nuclear power plant to heat it in the winter. Prefab "greenhouses," maybe? Raised beds MIGHT work, I'll have to give that some thought. We've got a couple flights planned for later this year, may have to look into local (well, 45 miles away) sources for raised beds or the lumber to build them. Lumber would require less flight time, but require more construction time.....but a 47-D can carry a triple sling, so MAYBE could get them preconstructed and haul them in. For one person, two dogs, chickens, ducks, goats, and MAYBE pigs, got any idea how large an area of "raised garden beds" would be necessary? (I sure as heck don't!!:scratch)

Thanks for the input....I'm getting some good responses, and DO need some additional planning! :help::gaah:


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Pessimistic2 said:


> Yeah, it ain't the stuff you "plan for" that will nail you....it's the "surprise. guess what just happened" stuff that is a killer. If my brother/family don't head my way, I may have to reconsider the "extra human" option, though that DOESN'T really appeal to me much (well, actually, not at all )....
> 
> Aqua/hydroponics not an option....I'd need a frickin' nuclear power plant to heat it in the winter. Prefab "greenhouses," maybe? Raised beds MIGHT work, I'll have to give that some thought. We've got a couple flights planned for later this year, may have to look into local (well, 45 miles away) sources for raised beds or the lumber to build them. Lumber would require less flight time, but require more construction time.....but a 47-D can carry a triple sling, so MAYBE could get them preconstructed and haul them in. For one person, two dogs, chickens, ducks, goats, and MAYBE pigs, got any idea how large an area of "raised garden beds" would be necessary? (I sure as heck don't!!:scratch)
> 
> Thanks for the input....I'm getting some good responses, and DO need some additional planning! :help::gaah:


Ah, You just fell back into the modern man syndrome. You own the valley, cut down trees. The raised bed does not have to be water tight, just hold dirt. Think of them as low log cabins without roofs (  ).

Now, I can appreciate the disdain for human company (remember I don't do well with people) but there has to have been a few people in your life you could trust and would be a benefit to have along. just some thing to think about. Unless you an teach Bo to fix their own meals (open cans, bags of dry food, get it from store room and fight off predators (they be big -- bears be bigger), they are going to need a human around. If you don't know anybody, maybe your brother (the smart one) can make a few recommendations? Lone wolf (single person) is a great concept if that person is prepared to accept fate. I don't think you fall into that category, you are spending and planning on how NOT to fall into that category. YOU will need somebody else with you or at least in the valley near you. Just something to puzzle over, lose sleep and cuss my name. :cheers:


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## bacpacker (Jul 15, 2011)

I agree about winter being an issue in the mountians out west. Around here, the highest elevations can get 3-6 feet, but the foothills are the areas I want to be in. In our climate the foothills can get a foot or so, but mostly will be gone in less than a week, maybe two. Temps can get below zero for a week or two at a stretch, but generally doesn't hold out a great deal longer than that. so springs, while may be very icy around them, but rarely freeze up. Neither do the creeks in most cases. So water generally would not be an issue.

I didn't go thru an entire plan but do have plans for water storage and having plumbing underground below frost line. same with sewer system. Livestock will require putting up hay and grain as feed thru the winter. Barns to house them in during bad weather are in the plans as well. 

Food storage includes root cellar, spring house, drying capability (both freeze and heat dry), canning, and freezing. Any house we have will have adequate pantry space, as in an entire room fully insulated to keep in cool.

Underground homes have pluses and minues. Not sure that would be my route, but is a consideration. Timber Frames with SIPP panels are highly efficient, as are log designs. But regardless of design, water and air infiltration are key elements to perfect so no issues arise.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

tmttactical said:


> Ah, You just fell back into the modern man syndrome. You own the valley, cut down trees. The raised bed does not have to be water tight, just hold dirt. Think of them as low log cabins without roofs (  ). Now, I can appreciate the disdain for human company (remember I don't do well with people) but there has to have been a few people in your life you could trust and would be a benefit to have along. just some thing to think about. Unless you an teach Bo to fix their own meals (open cans, bags of dry food, get it from store room and fight off predators (they be big -- bears be bigger), they are going to need a human around. If you don't know anybody, maybe your brother (the smart one) can make a few recommendations? Lone wolf (single person) is a great concept if that person is prepared to accept fate. I don't think you fall into that category, you are spending and planning on how NOT to fall into that category. YOU will need somebody else with you or at least in the valley near you. Just something to puzzle over, lose sleep and cuss my name. :cheers:


Ummmm, except for smart brother, I've outlived the VERY few people I would ever trust! On the other hand, with said brother being involved with all those alphabet agencies and having his ops/residence located ON a military base, it's really "iffy" as to whether he would/could "head for the hills," if the shtf. Gonna have to give this some thought, as much as I really DON'T like the idea. :brickwall::brickwall::brickwall:


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

Open for the next topic. Any suggestions?


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Caribou said:


> If you have trout it is a fair guess that your stream flows year around. Find a deep spot, drill, chop, or cut a hole and drop a baited hook in to see if you can't catch dinner. While you are at it figure out how thick the ice is in late January or February.
> What do you use the D-1 for? Check with your supplier. Where I used to live the jet fuel, home heating fuel, D-1, and on road diesel all came out of the same tank. They had different names depending on their usage and taxes. Do you have a backhoe?


Yep, NICE trout stream! Look like cutthroats to me, but I'm no expert.

No backhoe....rented one many, many years ago when we put in the basement/foundation, and the footers/slabs for the sheds. Got a large, self-propelled rototiller (Gas), garden tractor ( Kubota Diesel) w/gangmower, posthole drill, and one of those DR bush hog mowers (Gas), and, of course, the generator is diesel. Will be taking in a middling size wood chipper and log splitter (both gas). Well, I wouldn't bet money the D-1 is actually D-1....told the guy I needed diesel fuel for the generator and Fall operation, HE said D-1 works better in lower temperatures, and he filled the the bladder halfway, we hooked up the sling and took it to the Retreat...did a bit of work before we left...putting up fences. Got water bladder, too, and bladders for the JP-8, gasoline, but there's nothing in them right now. Now whether he actually GAVE me D-1, or D-2, I have no clue. Local field is a small, private airport, and what diesel they have is for their own equipment, not for sale, coulda had 'em make a run to get some, but just for chuckles we decided to go to the truck stop ourselves. (Ya'd think they never saw a helicopter before! )
Local field does have JP-8, which is basically just JP-A-1 with corrosion/anti-icing inhibitors but it does give diesel engines problems with the injectors (viscosity difference/ pressure, and lack of lubricative qualities). Whatever happened to the good ole days when turbines ran off straight kerosene? :scratch

Got two trips out there planned for this year...brother says he can take time off, so we'll be hauling in more spare parts, some retrofit upgrades, more supplies....but no fuel, that'll be done next Spring. MOST of the equipment, bladders, parts, have been additions in the last few years. Only thing we did early on was the log home itself, furniture, the sheds, and a couple sections of fencing, gas generator (since replaced with the new diesel one), stockpiling MREs (swapped out every 5 yrs), tools, stuff like that...everything else has been taken in over the last 4-5 years. (Well, getting older, I thought more and more about just moving in permanently.....SHTF, or no SHTF, so decided to do a few add-ons.)
Not moving in permanently until Spring, but checking the creek during Winter will be on the agenda.....water turbine no work in ice!! Planned on installing it, using it Spring-Fall, and pulling it out in winter, but if the creek DOESN'T freeze to the bottom, maybe I can just lower it near the bottom, and it would actually be useful in Winter. :dunno:

Still have a lot to work on though....the garden thing, pig thing for starters. Also have to get serious about how to thwart four footed predators, everything from weasels to bears, and they'd ALL love to have chickens, ducks and goats for munchies. Then there's the birds, rabbits, maybe deer, that'll just love the garden! Know anything about "sonic deterrents?" I can't seem to find anything that wouldn't also affect the dogs.:dunno:

Thanks for the input....I still have a lot to work on. :wave:


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## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

That stream won’t freeze solid. I pulled water from a small creek (pronounced Krik) all winter in NE PA. Hardest part was having to open the hole every day. Anyway, what do you think happens to the water all winter, it stops flowing or dissapears? LOL!

Being single, with dog, my BOL would be in NC. Earth shelter with that 50-acre mark as the central point. You can grow year-round, with minimal protection. Yeah, hot enough in the summer to melt tomato plants, but I like that kind of weather. Winters are temperate enough. Year-round fish to be caught and if you are close enough to the sounds, more than enough variety of critters to eat. Only thing you need to be is 15’ above sea level.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Woody said:


> That stream won't freeze solid. I pulled water from a small creek (pronounced Krik) all winter in NE PA. Hardest part was having to open the hole every day. Anyway, what do you think happens to the water all winter, it stops flowing or dissapears? LOL!
> Being single, with dog, my BOL would be in NC. Earth shelter with that 50-acre mark as the central point. You can grow year-round, with minimal protection. Yeah, hot enough in the summer to melt tomato plants, but I like that kind of weather. Winters are temperate enough. Year-round fish to be caught and if you are close enough to the sounds, more than enough variety of critters to eat. Only thing you need to be is 15' above sea level.


Water in KRIK....ummmm, freeze solid as a rock, plug up hole in cliff, create huge backpressure, cliff erupts? :dunno::scratch

OK, OK, so the bottom part won't freeze, that's good to know! Might just make the turbine usable in winter. :2thumb::beercheer:

Thanks for the input! :wave:


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

The Tin Hat House is for everyday living. The house is also to function as a bunker / fortification with an emergency rabbit hole. It is to be completely off grid --water, sewer, power and food supply. 

Solar and propane generator for power, septic tank for sewer. Cistern / Rain Catchment for water. Aquaponics for food (vegetables & fish) Metal shop, wood shop, vehicle and RV storage all attached to house. House exterior walls (excluding shops and storage areas) are made to be ballistic resistant (concrete or ceramic balls). Roof fire sprinkler system (designated as roof wash system on design plans). Under ground "Rabbit hole" designated as 100 yard mushroom farm on building plans.

Ideally the "THH" would be located on about 2 to 5 acres of land and be be situated on the highest point (hill / plateau) for 2 miles, A 100 yard clear field all around the house. No trees, scrub brush, bushes, etc. within 100 yard of the house. The location has to be in a very low densely populated housing area -- rural with dirt road access --- no paved streets.

Due to relying on Aquaponic for food, the "THH" has to be located in a region with a moderate climate. All critical equipment, except Aquaponic setup, are hidden from view -- under ground. 

The "THH" has surveillance cameras providing 360 degree coverage with FLIR technology and motion activated silent alarms. 

This is intended to be close enough to civilization for occasional shopping but far enough that unwelcome visitors would not be inclined to head in that direction (preferred semi desert area). To the casual observer, this area would not offer a source of food or water and would also be difficult area for travel. 

This is to be a "GRAY MAN" house.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

tmttactical said:


> The Tin Hat House is for everyday living. The house is also to function as a bunker / fortification with an emergency rabbit hole. It is to be completely off grid --water, sewer, power and food supply. Solar and propane generator for power, septic tank for sewer. Cistern / Rain Catchment for water. Aquaponics for food (vegetables & fish) Metal shop, wood shop, vehicle and RV storage all attached to house. House exterior walls (excluding shops and storage areas) are made to be ballistic resistant (concrete or ceramic balls). Roof fire sprinkler system (designated as roof wash system on design plans). Under ground "Rabbit hole" designated as 100 yard mushroom farm on building plans.
> Ideally the "THH" would be located on about 2 to 5 acres of land and be be situated on the highest point (hill / plateau) for 2 miles, A 100 yard clear field all around the house. No trees, scrub brush, bushes, etc. within 100 yard of the house. The location has to be in a very low densely populated housing area -- rural with dirt road access --- no paved streets.
> Due to relying on Aquaponic for food, the "THH" has to be located in a region with a moderate climate. All critical equipment, except Aquaponic setup, are hidden from view -- under ground. The "THH" has surveillance cameras providing 360 degree coverage with FLIR technology and motion activated silent alarms. This is intended to be close enough to civilization for occasional shopping but far enough that unwelcome visitors would not be inclined to head in that direction (preferred semi desert area). To the casual observer, this area would not offer a source of food or water and would also be difficult area for travel. This is to be a "GRAY MAN" house.


What is your definition of "moderate climate?" And "semi-desert area" sounds like you're gonna be somewhere in the SW....Southern Colorado, New Mexico, Utah, Arizona, Nevada (never mind Southern Californication).
Personal opinion, for what you're trying to set up, I'd think about the "four corners" area, where Colorado, New Mexico, Utah and Arizona are kissing cousins. 
https://www.google.com/search?q=fou...=1b3-WPW_G4H8mAGEg5zQBg#imgrc=3_xNM5O2ZeFlmM:

Farmington, Blanding, Shiprock, Durango, or Cortez could be your "shopping town(s)." Plenty of isolated, or semi-isolated territory, but still within reasonable driving distance for shopping. And you'd be right over the Ogallala Aquifer.....typical well depth runs from 50-300 ft.
http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Oc-Po/Ogallala-Aquifer.html

This will give you some idea of the varied terrain in the area.
https://www.google.com/search?q=fou...7AkIbw&biw=1242&bih=602#imgrc=0QGuHdPIAkavkM:

For available land (and there is PLENTY available), hit the gov't auction sites (states & Federal), and if you have it (or are willing to install it on your computer), you can also search using Google Earth to locate the "type" of area you want to take a closer look at, then use the coordinates to match up with the auction sites, or local county title searches. Google Earth also comes in very handy for seeing what the area looks like in various seasons (history feature). Sure wish they'd had Google Earth 25 years ago!!!! It's *free*, and it is really great! Lets you zoom in on whatever you want, right down to a street level view! You can rotate the images to get a 360 degree look-see, too. FANTASTIC piece of software!
https://www.google.com/earth/download/ge/

Jesus, I feel like I'm back in the real estate business!!


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Jesus, I feel like I'm back in the real estate business!![/QUOTE]

Shortened for brevity.

You got the concept down. Dirt road, clear views, reasonable access to civilization but not a direction that would entice explorers to go investigating.

I did download Google Earth and now I will figure how to best use it. I saved your post for future reference. I did do a quick peak at the area and it has potential.

I also notice major Indian reservations in that area, I check on the economics and school system in any area being considered for the "THH" project.

While you have the problem of finding a person to trust, I have the problem of Modern Family life requirements to Bunker-ville status. I don't want the house to be the first choice of desperate zombies, if you get me drift. Your choice does have the advantage of multiple contractors from multiple states. Not all development from one firm and different workers. Has potential.

Thanks for the reply.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

tmttactical said:


> Jesus, I feel like I'm back in the real estate business!!


Yes, there are a number of Reservations scattered around that area, and in fact in ALL of those states......Me, personally, I'd avoid being too close to them as well. You'll love Google Earth....play with it a while, it grows on ya! Fantastic program! It also has a "flight mode," which you might find interesting, once ya figure out how to use it.

A lot of that area has low, rolling hills, rather than mountains or flat-as-a-pancake land......THH on/under one of those low hills would provide you with excellent perimeter visibility when ya raise the periscope!

Yes, you could get construction supplies, equipment, from multiple vendors in the various towns, a distinct advantage.


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Flight1630 said:


> Open for the next topic. Any suggestions?


How about a tactical problem:

Flying from east coast to west coast. During stop over at St. Louis airport, grid goes down, solar flare, per government emergency broadcast. So, what do you do next? you need to be precise and describe every step in sequence, missed 
step and maybe you die. Here is first question --- Do you try to retrieve your checked luggage -(as a good prepper, you have some supplies in the luggage)?

Feel free to change, just a possible topic.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

tmttactical said:


> How about a tactical problem:
> Flying from east coast to west coast. During stop over at St. Louis airport, grid goes down, solar flare, per government emergency broadcast. So, what do you do next? you need to be precise and describe every step in sequence, missed
> step and maybe you die. Here is first question --- Do you try to retrieve your checked luggage -(as a good prepper, you have some supplies in the luggage)?
> Feel free to change, just a possible topic.


I know I'll probably get blasted for being a frivolous old f54t, but:
Step 1. Can't get the luggage, no power, no conveyors moving.
Step 2. Hit the Snack Bar, load up on coffee while it's still HOT!
Step 3. If the cell towers are still up, keep up with the news, it might really be just a solar flare....the gov't doesn't ALWAYS lie....
Step 4. Find an old fashioned motel a bit out-of-town, the kind that still has actual keys instead of a "key card."
Step 6. Hit the nearest grocery store, stock up on food, say enough for 3-4 days.....IF it's a solar flare (most likely), it'll pass. If it AIN'T a solar flare, and your butt is in/near ST. LOUIS, yer chances of being able to "get away" are slim to none, right off the top! Good luck with THAT! 
Step 7. If ALL the power is down, cars computers fried, etc., best bet (I think) would be to load up a backpack with MREs, knife, firestarter kit, bottled water, and a pistol/couple boxes of ammo if you can get them, and start heading across country to where your BOL is located. Prolly won't be easy, and may take a long time to get there, but what else ya gonna do?? Sure as hell can't stay in St. Louis!!


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

tmttactical said:


> How about a tactical problem:
> 
> Flying from east coast to west coast. During stop over at St. Louis airport, grid goes down, solar flare, per government emergency broadcast. So, what do you do next? you need to be precise and describe every step in sequence, missed
> step and maybe you die. Here is first question --- Do you try to retrieve your checked luggage -(as a good prepper, you have some supplies in the luggage)?
> ...


Yes we can do that.

So the question is how would you go from one side of the Country to the other when you can not fly.


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

Pessimistic2 said:


> I know I'll probably get blasted for being a frivolous old f54t, but:
> .
> Step 2. Hit the Snack Bar, load up on coffee while it's still HOT!
> Step 3. If the cell towers are still up, keep up with the news, it might really be just a solar flare.
> ...


2 I drive truck does the coffee need to be hot. Nope because cold coffee is better then no coffee. L
3 might have a better chance with txt messages.
4 good idea
6 better off to hit like a 7-11 lots of food and less likely that people will go there first.

The rest. No qlue lol


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## sgtusmc98 (Sep 8, 2013)

Having cash always helps, credit card if the system isn't down


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Flight1630 said:


> Yes we can do that.
> So the question is how would you go from one side of the Country to the other when you can not fly.


Wellll, it wouldn't be fun, or easy, but the pioneers made it from Massachusetts to California, and they didn't fly to get there......:wave:


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## SewingMachine (Mar 26, 2017)

If I can I get my baggage. If the power is down, it may not be a good idea to wait. It's probably going to get hectic at the airport. I know I want to leave, post haste. Getting away from the airport, and out of the city is my number one priority. If I can estimate west, from the sun or moon, I will look for tracks heading that way, and use them to get out of town quickly. I would go out of my way, like a slight jog south or north, if it meant I would be outside the city faster.

I need an atlas, one that shows railroads, and I need to get out of city limits and away from intercity rail.

I need a sleeping bag or a couple decent comforters, a very basic cooking kit with lighters, any old pot with a lid, and a spoon. I need two or three boxes of instant oatmeal, and I would buy coffee if I could. I don't need a cup.

I need a tarp, or a box of garbage bags. I need a backpack.

I'm looking for trains running in the compass direction I am going, I can fine tune it as I get closer. I may need to stop and get another atlas to get a finer detail view of my destination state rail.

If the trains aren't running, I am walking the tracks. If the opportunity presented itself, I would grab a bike. I will need more food, I would estimate travel time between bodies of water on foot or bike.

I would be avoiding everyone, and focusing on getting where I need to be. Not looking to get sucked into any problems. If I encountered others on the tracks a few times, I would start paralleling the tracks, hiking a few hundred yards off of them.

If I'm hopping trains, I will move quickly but would expect more people.

If I'm hoofing it, I will be in for the long haul, and might as well take more time to be extra safe.


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

Well this is one topic I need to look into. Not to sure how I would get back. I will have to depend on my map. Avoid larger places like the plague. And use my smarts.


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

Well i guess that last topic was a flop lol, the new topic I'm thinking is,* What kind of long term foods would you store in your BOL?* weather its seeds, cans, freeze dried, dehydrated, or whatever and how much for say one year


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Flight1630 said:


> Well i guess that last topic was a flop lol, the new topic I'm thinking is,* What kind of long term foods would you store in your BOL?* weather its seeds, cans, freeze dried, dehydrated, or whatever and how much for say one year


What is your definition of "long-term?" Just one year?

5-7 years, with no gardening, hunting, fishing, trapping, or barnyard critters, pure low profile survival on "stored food," I'd personally have to say MREs, vitamin/mineral supplements, and protein powder, would be the priorities, along with dog food for Bo & Lilly.


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Flight1630 said:


> Well i guess that last topic was a flop lol, the new topic I'm thinking is,* What kind of long term foods would you store in your BOL?* weather its seeds, cans, freeze dried, dehydrated, or whatever and how much for say one year


Flight, I don't think the topic was a flop. I think many people just discovered they really have not given specific challenges enough thought. The purpose was not to total the number of idea's but to start folks thinking and to discover maybe we are not as prepared as we think.

Since most have responded, Here is my plan:

1) Determine if on-board luggage is going to be unloaded.
2) Get the hot coffee and city, state and national maps.
3) Obtain auto rental -- cash and id or force agency to accept manual run 
card . (all Visa & Master Card vendors are required to physically accept 
and provide paper copy).
4) if vehicles not an option, find a bicycle.
5) Bike / walk to a WallMart, sporting goods store and purchase Shotgun or 
rifle (I believe Missouri permits out of state purchase of shotgun or rifle). 
6) Purchase minimalist camp stove, MRE rations, water bottle, water filter, 
backpack, camping hatchet, knife, baby wipes, first aid kit, etc. (Bug Out 
Bag supplies) Purchase bike and bike trailer . Pay to have bike and trailer 
assembled or buy tools needed.
7) Get out of Dodge (St. Louise) Use back roads if by vehicle -- avoid densely 
populated urban area streets. If using bicycle, head to railroad tracks, get 
out of Dodge.
8) Work your way on home, avoid people as much as possible. Good Luck.

Now what we all overlooked was:: Why did we not have our route and access points (stores, roads, railways, firearm laws, etc.) all mapped out and on a simple Thumb drive, in our carry-on luggage. We are Prepared Society right, plan on worst survivable case (plane crash --kiss your tush goodbye). In this case it was being stranded in unknown locations, without our wonderful preps.

Folks, plan ahead. That is the whole point of prepping. Look at these questions as Life or Death because it could be. Prepped on the home front is great, prepped for the unexpected is even better.

On to the next question, time to put on my thinking hat.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

TmtTactical....."Why did we not have our route and access points (stores, roads, railways, firearm laws, etc.) all mapped out and on a simple Thumb drive, in our carry-on luggage."

Quick (honest) answer.......because in some respects, our dumba$$es are not as "prepared" as we think we are. Very good point you raised there!


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

Flight1630 said:


> This is my question of the week, Whats the perfect Bug Out Location BOL.
> 
> So what i have in mind is Type of house, size of house, were its located, how much land, and other things.
> 
> ...


This really sounds great, I'm sure a lot of us would love to have this situation even though it borders on utopia, kind of like my wish for at least a mile long driveway into the deep woods, kind of hard to hide a home and greenhouse and have enough sunlight hours to keep a solar system and greenhouse running properly. When I get our solar array installed it will be hidden by our home, trouble is, the home is about 100 yards from the county road and sticks out like a sore thumb, the good thing is it is up hill enough to be a defensible position. My only thought is that I would like to have steel panels that I could roll over the front of the home, a very expensive idea and I'm not sure my deck would handle all the weight, oh well, it was a good idea to begin with. :dunno:


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

Pessimistic2 said:


> What is your definition of "long-term?" Just one year?
> 
> 5-7 years, with no gardening, hunting, fishing, trapping, or barnyard critters, pure low profile survival on "stored food," I'd personally have to say MREs, vitamin/mineral supplements, and protein powder, would be the priorities, along with dog food for Bo & Lilly.


well hence the topic of the week so we can discuss what would be acceptable in a SHTF scenario lol. also would anyone have several 5 gallon pails of dry food like rice and different kind of beans, several gallons of cooking oils (not motor oil for all you gearheads lol, i shouldn't laugh i use diesel oil to cook with, is that right? :dunno and what else would anyone have?


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Viking said:


> This really sounds great, I'm sure a lot of us would love to have this situation even though it borders on utopia, kind of like my wish for at least a mile long driveway into the deep woods, kind of hard to hide a home and greenhouse and have enough sunlight hours to keep a solar system and greenhouse running properly.  When I get our solar array installed it will be hidden by our home, trouble is, the home is about 100 yards from the county road and sticks out like a sore thumb, the good thing is it is up hill enough to be a defensible position. My only thought is that I would like to have steel panels that I could roll over the front of the home, a very expensive idea and I'm not sure my deck would handle all the weight, oh well, it was a good idea to begin with. :dunno:


What about Kevlar matting? Works for bullet-proof vests...:dunno:


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Flight1630 said:


> well hence the topic of the week so we can discuss what would be acceptable in a SHTF scenario lol. also would anyone have several 5 gallon pails of dry food like rice and different kind of beans, several gallons of cooking oils (not motor oil for all you gearheads lol, i shouldn't laugh i use diesel oil to cook with, is that right? :dunno and what else would anyone have?


Will those things have a shelf life of "years?" :scratch


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

Pessimistic2 said:


> Will those things have a shelf life of "years?" :scratch


the grains will and im sure cooking oils will also have that.


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## AmishHeart (Jun 10, 2016)

You need fruit and veg, seasonings. It can be dehydrated or freeze dried. Rice and beans are something, but boy does that get boring. Vitamins. Wheat and a wheat grinder, baking powder for pancakes, dehydrated eggs. Powdered milk. Canned butter. Canned cheese,or make your own with powdered milk and vinegar. Even having dehydrated tomato powder and dehydrated onion and bell pepper strips to add to those stored pinto beans would be something better than just beans and rice. Pick up a good cookbook, like, "Cooking With Food Storage", and make sure you have the basics.


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

AmishHeart said:


> You need fruit and veg, seasonings. It can be dehydrated or freeze dried. Rice and beans are something, but boy does that get boring. Vitamins. Wheat and a wheat grinder, baking powder for pancakes, dehydrated eggs. Powdered milk. Canned butter. Canned cheese,or make your own with powdered milk and vinegar. Even having dehydrated tomato powder and dehydrated onion and bell pepper strips to add to those stored pinto beans would be something better than just beans and rice. Pick up a good cookbook, like, "Cooking With Food Storage", and make sure you have the basics.


This is what i had in mined when I or someone poses the topic of the week, and thank you for the great response, also think that having alot of the basics would be good.


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## terri9630 (Jun 2, 2016)

Flight1630 said:


> the grains will and im sure cooking oils will also have that.


The oil will have a limited life. The grains will last a very long time if kept whole, dry and bug free. Grind your wheat as you need it.


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

Caribou said:


> If you start a new thread for each question the answers will be less intertwined.


ok i was wondering about that, i will do that to the next question, thanks.


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

terri9630 said:


> The oil will have a limited life. The grains will last a very long time if kept whole, dry and bug free. Grind your wheat as you need it.


Just a question but why would oils have a limited shelf life, i thought they would last a long time.


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## terri9630 (Jun 2, 2016)

Caribou said:


> Oils go rancid. If you keep oil in the freezer it will keep for a very long time. I expect about three years on oil on the shelf.


Oil stored in a sealed metal container will last longer. I had a tin of olive oil that lasted almost 5 years.


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

terri9630 said:


> Oil stored in a sealed metal container will last longer. I had a tin of olive oil that lasted almost 5 years.


I read somewhere that olive oil does not go rancid. Being old I don't remember where I read it. I am sure one of our resident experts can provide the answer?


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

tmttactical said:


> I read somewhere that olive oil does not go rancid. Being old I don't remember where I read it. I am sure one of our resident experts can provide the answer?


I went to 10 sites......general consensus is 3-4 years, but it is apparently "edible" after that, just doesn't taste so good...
http://www.oliveoilsource.com/asktheexpert/what-shelf-life-olive-oil
Excerpt: "Lifespan can be as little as 3 months for an unfiltered late harvest olive bottled in clear glass and sold off a supermarket shelf above hot deli foods which is then stored by the consumer in bright light on a hot stovetop with the cap unscrewed. It can be as much as 3-4 years for an early harvest, high polyphenol containing olive variety which has been filtered then packaged in a well sealed tin or dark bottle then stored in a cool dark place by the grocer and consumer. Best to buy small quantities, use up the oil within 6 months. Any vegetable oil will go rancid with time. The oil is still edible but will taste bad."


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Pessimistic2 said:


> I went to 10 sites......general consensus is 3-4 years, but it is apparently "edible" after that, just doesn't taste so good...
> http://www.oliveoilsource.com/asktheexpert/what-shelf-life-olive-oil
> Excerpt: "Lifespan can be as little as 3 months for an unfiltered late harvest olive bottled in clear glass and sold off a supermarket shelf above hot deli foods which is then stored by the consumer in bright light on a hot stovetop with the cap unscrewed. It can be as much as 3-4 years for an early harvest, high polyphenol containing olive variety which has been filtered then packaged in a well sealed tin or dark bottle then stored in a cool dark place by the grocer and consumer. Best to buy small quantities, use up the oil within 6 months. Any vegetable oil will go rancid with time. The oil is still edible but will taste bad."


Thanks Pess. Internet, not every article is factual. Great to have somebody with the search talent, take me forever to find articles. :cheers:


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

tmttactical said:


> Thanks Pess. Internet, not every article is factual. Great to have somebody with the search talent, take me forever to find articles. :cheers:


Maybe......if I don't forget to look at 10-20 sites and not just stop on the first page!


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

In the 20 some years I worked for a local school district I saw a lot of whole wheat flour and corn meal go rancid in a short period of time, we ended up having to store those in a freezer. Brown rice will go rancid as well so we store it in a freezer. Any grain that has the germ still in it can go rancid fast unless stored in a cold place and any rancid food can be harmful to your health.


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## terri9630 (Jun 2, 2016)

Viking said:


> In the 20 some years I worked for a local school district I saw a lot of whole wheat flour and corn meal go rancid in a short period of time, we ended up having to store those in a freezer. Brown rice will go rancid as well so we store it in a freezer. Any grain that has the germ still in it can go rancid fast unless stored in a cold place and any rancid food can be harmful to your health.


That's why it's best to store grains whole and grind as needed. They last much longer.


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

We buy our flour from King Author and corn meal from Hodgson by mail. We order enough to last for a year hopefully.:dunno: Last week we got 25lb.s of each. We use self rising only except a couple bags for making cakes cookies and pastries.

We vacuum seal it with food saver. Is this ok? If we did freeze it and lights went out seems it would be quicker to go rancid?


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## terri9630 (Jun 2, 2016)

Meerkat said:


> We buy our flour from King Author and corn meal from Hodgson by mail. We order enough to last for a year hopefully.:dunno: Last week we got 25lb.s of each. We use self rising only except a couple bags for making cakes cookies and pastries.
> 
> We vacuum seal it with food saver. Is this ok? If we did freeze it and lights went out seems it would be quicker to go rancid?


Freezing won't make it go rancid faster. It will just kill any bug/eggs that may have gotten in during packaging and shipping.


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