# We are the 99 percent.



## Salekdarling (Aug 15, 2010)

I don't know how to feel about all of these people. I support their right to have their voices heard and yet I feel like they aren't trying to do something about their debts. It's almost like they are asking for handouts.

We Are the 99 Percent

I am one of these 99 percent and I'm pretty darn sure the rest of you are too. My Husband and I are living from paycheck to paycheck and we have no health insurance. The student loans between the two of us is probably around 50K. I had to put a forbearance on my loans just last week because my paychecks will NOT cover all of my loans per month...and now my loans are going to accrue more interest. Not a happy camper about that either way but I will pay my debt off. I just can't right now with the level of income I have. It's enough money to insure a roof over our heads and food in the pantry. (Also, coupons, food perks and buying in bulk is a blessing in disguise)

I'm aiming for ten years to be debt free...if TEOTWAWKI doesn't happen before than.  I'm at least trying to take responsibility for my debts.

What's your take on Occupy Wall Street? Annoyed? Angry? Supportive?
What about the 99 percent?


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## Asatrur (Dec 17, 2008)

I think some are bums asking for a handout, but then most are just sick of the fake free-market/capitalist economy we have where those big companies get rewarded with bailouts, while the little person gets screwed. Our politicians are corrupt from down low to up high including all sides of the aisle and it is time for the people to take back what it ours. The tea party talks a good talk, but these guys are getting folks talking and listening. This reminds me more of the good old revolution days more than listening to a bunch of tea party folks talk about doing something.


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## kejmack (May 17, 2011)

They are demanding free college tuition and free health care. I don't know who they think is going to pay for all this "free" stuff.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

I think they are a bunch of uninformed folks who think they are entitled to a certain standard of living with certain benefits (health care being one of those). This is as anti-American as it gets. They are entitled to NOTHING but opportunity and most wouldnt know an opportunity if it landed on their iPad or their free lunch. 

I have no sympathy for them but I support their right to assmeble peacefully and protest the color of lawn grass if they like.


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## Bigdog57 (Oct 9, 2008)

THEY are NOT 99%. And they do NOT speak for me. I do NOT support this silly and ill-thought out scam. George Soros, SEIU and the other usual suspects of the Socialist World are backing and pushing this event.

There are better ways to get one's needs heard than making a filthy spectacle of oneself. THIS is no the way to do it. It marginalizes any relelvance they may have had. They are simply tools who do not know they are being used.


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## Immolatus (Feb 20, 2011)

I will have to say that I see more vehemence from the right towards these people, who are everyday Americans, who seem to be asking for the same thing that C, BAC, AIG, GM etc etc got when they were in trouble than towards those companies themselves.
Why is that?


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

Immolatus said:


> I will have to say that I see more vehemence from the right towards these people, who are everyday Americans, who seem to be asking for the same thing that C, BAC, AIG, GM etc etc got when they were in trouble than towards those companies themselves.
> Why is that?


Those companies dont deserve anything from the gov't either. There is nothing American about those companies getting bailed out just like there is nothing American about those blood suckers protesting for more handouts.


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## PopPop (Sep 14, 2010)

Please dont include me in the 99%. We are struggeling but do not endorse the collectivist solution. The bank bailouts were the wrong thing to do and have caused all of us to suffer to some degree and this 99%ers occupation should have been expected and probably was even desired. We are on course for the destruction of the republic and that will not benefit anyone.


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## mikesolid (Aug 24, 2011)

These "protests" are filled with little immature people who have NO idea what they are protesting. 

And just think about it. It only takes ONE...I STRESS THE WORD ONNNNNNNE...ONE OF THESE IDIOTS TURNS VIOLENT AND THE REST WILL FOLLOW SUIT. THEIR MINDLESS LITTLE COLLEGE TEENY BOPPERS THAT ARE "PROTESTING" TO BE TRENDY. 

It's happened here. "occupy iowa"...Just in a matter of days they've protested over ATLEAST 5 different things. unorganized, bored, little teenagers is all they are. (I'm saying this as a "young" person myself....But I know which way is up and which way is down.) they even had the NERVE to start trashing the police because they were "violent"...all that happened was their permit to stay was up and the police asked them to leave...THEY WOULDN'T (WHICH IS CALLED TRESPASSING, WHICH IS CALLED ILLEGAL)...The police arrested people...EVIDENTLY, WE WHO FOLLOW LAWS AND UPHOLD THEM, (according to these hip protestors) ARE "VIOLENT"

THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT. NOT. NOT. NOT PROUD-HARD-WORKING AMERICANS.




sorry for the caps....it's been pissing me off since it started.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

PopPop said:


> Please dont include me in the 99%. We are struggeling but do not endorse the collectivist solution. The bank bailouts were the wrong thing to do and have caused all of us to suffer to some degree and this 99%ers occupation should have been expected and probably was even desired. We are on course for the destruction of the republic and that will not benefit anyone.


Well said!


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## Salekdarling (Aug 15, 2010)

mikesolid said:


> These "protests" are filled with little immature people who have NO idea what they are protesting.
> 
> And just think about it. It only takes ONE...I STRESS THE WORD ONNNNNNNE...ONE OF THESE IDIOTS TURNS VIOLENT AND THE REST WILL FOLLOW SUIT. THEIR MINDLESS LITTLE COLLEGE TEENY BOPPERS THAT ARE "PROTESTING" TO BE TRENDY.
> 
> ...


I agree. I guess I'm not one of those folks if I'm not whining to get free everything. Like I said before, I take responsibility for my debts. It's not like I'll wake up tomorrow and the Government will say, "Sorry for making you pay! Your slate is wiped clean!"

That'd be cool though. Not going to happen!


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## dahur (Dec 18, 2009)

TheAnt said:


> Those companies dont deserve anything from the gov't either.


No they don't....but they DID get the money didn't they? So they could afford to pay their CEO's their huge compensation packages that were previously contracted for. The American taxpayer sure got screwed on that one, so the fat cats could get theirs.


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## Ezmerelda (Oct 17, 2010)

I've only read about 2 dozen of the posts by these people and it seems to me that they should be "Occupying College Campuses" because their biggest beef seems to be that they were "tricked" into taking out enormous student loans for "worthless" degrees.

If, as it seems, that's their biggest beef, then they should be occupying the guidance counselor's office instead of Wall Street.

I made a similar bad decision, took out student loans to get a business degree from one of the largest degree mills in the country, but you won't see me protesting on Wall Street or any where else. 

I made the bad decision, and as an adult, it's my responsibility to learn from it and move on...AND pay off my student loan, even if that means working at McDonald's until it's paid off.


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## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

Great topic, great posts...but has anyone actually thought what could have happened if that TARP money was issued to each state and used for jobs??
15,740,000,000 for each state would have gotten this nation producing again...I know; screw China and their trade agreement.

15 billion, 740 million for each state...but no, it was given to other nations and tucked away in someone's offshore bank accounts.
There will be blood before this is over. For every county in ky, 131 million dollars would have gone a long way.


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## Salekdarling (Aug 15, 2010)

JayJay said:


> There will be blood before this is over.


I don't think any of this will truly be over. I just have that gut feeling that this is all going to just snowball into something more major then we can all expect. I pray that isn't the case.

I haven't really paid attention to the media as of late. (I've been practically living at my job for two weeks straight) When I do check media websites, I don't see much media coverage on Occupy Wall Street. Must not be much of a big deal to the media.:dunno:


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## Maxbeard (Oct 10, 2011)

I find the protest to be high comedy. One disaffected youth, when asked who he wanted for the next president said Mao Zedong. Mao would have run all these dumb sh#ts over with a tank like Tienamin Square.


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## texas_red (Sep 9, 2011)

Asatrur said:


> I think some are bums asking for a handout, but then most are just sick of the fake free-market/capitalist economy we have where those big companies get rewarded with bailouts, while the little person gets screwed. Our politicians are corrupt from down low to up high including all sides of the aisle and it is time for the people to take back what it ours. The tea party talks a good talk, but these guys are getting folks talking and listening. This reminds me more of the good old revolution days more than listening to a bunch of tea party folks talk about doing something.


I think you just hit it over the fence. :congrat:


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## efbjr (Oct 20, 2008)

JayJay said:


> 15,740,000,000 for each state would have gotten this nation producing again...


Here, in Rhode Island, the legislature would have have whizzed it away before the ink dried on the check! :gaah:


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

The Wall Street protesters are ignorant anti-capitalists who've been brainwashed by their Marxist college professors. They're being funded by groups friendly to the Democrats. 

If they really wanted to do something constructive they'd march on the White House. 1. Demand that Obama fire everyone of his people who cheated on their taxes or was behind in paying them. 
2. Demand that the people who bundled toxic mortgages and those who rated them AAA all be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
3. Demand that the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac regulators be prosecuted. Investigate both agencies fully and prosecute everyone who committed crimes. Those who are also responsible but can't charged with crimes should be banned from ever working for the government again.
4. Kick out all the members of the house and senate who opposed Bush's call for more oversight on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Kick out everyone who got campaign contributions from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
5. Change government rules regarding student loans. Make loans subject to bankruptcy laws. Suspend interest charges for people below a certain income level. Make the maximum payment be 10% of gross income.
6. Freeze government spending to 2008 levels and make no adjustments for inflation.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

It surprises me that even some of you here just don't get it. Why are some of you so upset with the companies that got the bailouts or the lavish bonuses given to a number of CEOs and now want THEM punished in some way?  Why are you not directing your anger towards those who engineered all this mayhem - the politicians like Bawwney Frank and Chris Dodd. They are responsible for the housing mess. Why are these two not in prison already? 

How about the revolving door between some of these companies and Obama's staff? Moving back and forth, from private corporations and government, looting the public as they go! None of this crap could have happened without the collusion of government criminals like Geithner, Obama, Jarret, Axelrod, Holder, and the bevy of communists Obama has appointed throughout government, including 39 unconstitutional czars that are not accountable to anyone but HIM?

It not capitalism. Its not the free market system. Its certainly not the Constitution or the foundation upon which this nation was built. It criminal activity that has moved from the back allies of Chicago right into the White House infused with a mainline drip of communism and radical islam. Unfortunately, the uneducated, the ignorant, the easily manipulated, and the gullible have swallowed hook, line, and sinker that its the American economic system thats at fault while the perpetrators continue to laugh and stuff even more into their pockets.

Listen, what has happened here is nothing short of treason. Its not enough that some of these criminals might be voted out of office. They only take their "winnings" with them and resurface at one of the corporations that used them. This is TREASON! The guilty must be discovered. They must be charged, arrested, prosecuted, and, if convicted, executed. Will it happen? Hell no! No one wants to stand up. No one wants to become a target. No one wants to be set upon, lied about, and possibly ruined. But, one time long ago there were a group of men who knew what the score was and the odds of failure. Even so, they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor to each other and to the struggle of independence and individual freedom. But YAWH is a just God. He poured His blessings on that earlier group. I fear He is pouring his wraith on us now, and we deserve it!


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

Jezcruzen said:


> It surprises me that even some of you here just don't get it. Why are some of you so upset with the companies that got the bailouts or the lavish bonuses given to a number of CEOs and now want THEM punished in some way? Why are you not directing your anger towards those who engineered all this mayhem - the politicians like Bawwney Frank and Chris Dodd. They are responsible for the housing mess. Why are these two not in prison already?
> 
> How about the revolving door between some of these companies and Obama's staff? Moving back and forth, from private corporations and government, looting the public as they go! None of this crap could have happened without the collusion of government criminals like Geithner, Obama, Jarret, Axelrod, Holder, and the bevy of communists Obama has appointed throughout government, including 39 unconstitutional czars that are not accountable to anyone but HIM?
> 
> ...


Well said on every single point! :congrat::congrat::congrat:


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

I certainly have no interest in being included in their number!

As has been said before, these trust-fund babies are nothing but pawns, and stupid pawns, at that.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

Turtle said:


> I certainly have no interest in being included in their number!
> 
> As has been said before, these trust-fund babies are nothing but pawns, and stupid pawns, at that.


Coaties aren't included!


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

Jezcruzen said:


> Coasties aren't included!


Of course not... They're already in deep, and we can't swim!


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## Beeorganic (Oct 11, 2011)

I tend to believe anyone here who subscribes to or supports this 99% stuff are just swallowing the ol "class envy" bait. Isn't this the type of scenario of why people become preppers to begin with?


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

Interesting bit I heard on Neil Boortz show relating to the 99% issue:

The top 1% of income earners earn 18% of earned income in the US and pay 40% of income taxes in the US and make as little as (approx) 380k/year.

Interesting statistics about the 1%... on the other side of the coin:

The bottom 99% of income earners earn 82% of earned income in the US and only pay 60% of income taxes and make as much as (approx) 380k/year. 

By those stats Im probably in the bottom 70% or lower. I say gratz to the top 1% and shame on those folks trying to take advantage of them!


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## Necred (Sep 26, 2010)

This is the beginnings of the new party,,"The Flea Party" as they are human parasites, looking for uncle to give them more.


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

Necred said:


> This is the beginnings of the new party,,"The Flea Party" as they are human parasites, looking for uncle to give them more.


One of the guys on the radio called it "The Teat Party", because they have spend their entire lives suckling at the figurative breast of the governtment. Another guy called it "The Me Party", because they are only concerned with what they stand to gain.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

Necred said:


> This is the beginnings of the new party,,"The Flea Party" as they are human parasites, looking for uncle to give them more.





Turtle said:


> One of the guys on the radio called it "The Teat Party", because they have spend their entire lives suckling at the figurative breast of the governtment. Another guy called it "The Me Party", because they are only concerned with what they stand to gain.


You guys!!! :lolsmash::lolsmash::lolsmash::kiss::beercheer:


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## SageAdvicefarmgirl (Jun 23, 2011)

Jezcruzen said:


> It surprises me that even some of you here just don't get it. Why are some of you so upset with the companies that got the bailouts or the lavish bonuses given to a number of CEOs and now want THEM punished in some way? Why are you not directing your anger towards those who engineered all this mayhem - the politicians like Bawwney Frank and Chris Dodd. They are responsible for the housing mess. Why are these two not in prison already?
> 
> How about the revolving door between some of these companies and Obama's staff? Moving back and forth, from private corporations and government, looting the public as they go! None of this crap could have happened without the collusion of government criminals like Geithner, Obama, Jarret, Axelrod, Holder, and the bevy of communists Obama has appointed throughout government, including 39 unconstitutional czars that are not accountable to anyone but HIM?
> 
> ...


 Great points!:congrat: Can i copy and paste this to my local newspaper? I love it!

I worked as a Realtor, in 2008, a mortgage lender and I were talking, I asked: how they could put together loans for those who had no reliable income or simply were not crditworthy? she said: We HAVE to, by Govt regs, we have to make 30% of loans to disadvantaged buyers. She told me back then that S would someday HTF because of it. I got out of the business shortly afterwards, wish I had sold all my properties then, too!


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## Necred (Sep 26, 2010)

I get it, democraps want/need to have as many on the teat as possible, 48% will asure them of almost half the votes they need to stay in power, they will woe another 10% with promises and another 10% that are just ignorant.


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## preventDamage (Sep 16, 2011)

I saw a sign that someone that was rich made. It said "I was born into wealth and I have so much when others are struggling to survive TAX ME! I am the 1% I stand with the 99%" I thought that was really cool.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

preventDamage said:


> I saw a sign that someone that was rich made. It said "I was born into wealth and I have so much when others are struggling to survive TAX ME! I am the 1% I stand with the 99%" I thought that was really cool.


Why is that "cool"? That idiot can send in more tax money anytime he wants. There are provisions on the tax forms that make that very easy. My guess is he's a plant holding his little idiotic sign. I'm sure that the socialist media ate that up.

Now, listen up. The 1% of top earners pay 40%.... thats FORTY PERCENT of the income tax collected. The top 40% of earners pay 75% of the income tax collected.

We hear all about "fairness". Well, whats fair, and who is it that decides what fair is? Who decides when someone... someone who EARNED what they have, have too much? If that entire concept isn't communist there isn't a cow in Texas!

Oh, BTW... 47% pay NO INCOME TAX. How about this.... How about they pitch in?


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

Jezcruzen said:


> Why is that "cool"? That idiot can send in more tax money anytime he wants. There are provisions on the tax forms that make that very easy. My guess is he's a plant holding his little idiotic sign. I'm sure that the socialist media ate that up.
> 
> Now, listen up. The 1% of top earners pay 40%.... thats FORTY PERCENT of the income tax collected. The top 40% of earners pay 75% of the income tax collected.
> 
> ...


Word up my brotha!


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## gatorglockman (Sep 9, 2011)

LOL'ing at these idiots on parade....not really 

I work 2 jobs...7 days a week...and that is the truth. Now for another shocking truth. When we have openings at the easier of the two/pm job/weekend gig I do, it is hard to get anyone. I am shocked at the crap talent we finally end up hiring. I had a long chat with the lead manager and a few other leaders as to why. Their explanation was that people did not want to give up their unemployment money.

As a senior leader in my daytime job, I travel across the US to 9 different states. In several of these states, turnover is horrible and in some cases directly tied to the nanny/entitlements that some states afford their people. It is easier for these folks to make a few K less than actually WORK for a fortune 100 company. Nevermind if you do get your foot in the door and work, you can make a lot of money....that is fwd thinking and a lot of work..... 

Screw these bums and their lazy attitudes, drug lust and raw ignorance. If I hear another whack job talking about 911 being an inside job, etc...I will hurl. 

The only thing I can be sympathetic towards is how some CEO's, etc have made millions on failing companies as the walls fall down. There is a moral failure in many aspects and this greed has infuriated many (like me)...but I have not stopped working to go and act like a bum.


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## Immolatus (Feb 20, 2011)

gatorglockman said:


> The only thing I can be sympathetic towards is how some CEO's, etc have made millions on failing companies as the walls fall down. There is a moral failure in many aspects and this greed has infuriated many (like me)...but I have not stopped working to go and act like a bum.


I think you just hit the main point of all of the protests.
While you work two jobs, the CEO's of C, BAC, AIG, etc made millions while whining to the gubt and getting bailed out. Your neighbor loses his house for whatever reason and is now on the street.

Right or wrong, the peasantry will not stand for this forever. It doesnt matter whether its their own fault because they are lazy bums, or are legitimately unable to get ahead. THAT IS NOT THE POINT. Whether its resentment, envy, self pity, whatever. It may not be (is not) the gubts job to keep people working at a 'living wage', or be able to be proud of themselves, or even be content. But when the people become discontent over what they see in the world around them they will do what people have always done. Rise up. They will point the finger at someone above them on the (social, economic) ladder and say "Its your fault".

I assume noone believes that the 50% who dont pay taxes, are poor, who live on gubt handouts, in projects, are scared to get sick are actually happy or satisfied with their lot in life, self imposed or otherwise? Are the parents of the 25% of children who are on food stamps happy or proud when they have to feed their children with someone elses money because they are unable or unwilling?

I am not defending them, I am trying to point out their greivances at the most fundamental level. If the masses are not happy with the system, they will deal with it for as long as can. When they cant stand it anymore, they will change it. The question is how they will go about it.
Again, and I cant stress this enough, it DOES NOT MATTER whos fault it is. 'They' will point the finger at the people who are better off than them, the people who make the rules, the people who are (real or imagined) keeping them down. Then they will do something about it.

Ah. Giving this some more thought, it is the gubts job to keep the masses happy. For if a gubt does not keep its people at least content, it will not last for long. Its called self preservation.


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## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

I worked as a Realtor, in 2008, a mortgage lender and I were talking, I asked: how they could put together loans for those who had no reliable income or simply were not crditworthy? she said: We HAVE to, by Govt regs, we have to make 30% of loans to disadvantaged buyers. She told me back then that S would someday HTF because of it. I got out of the business shortly afterwards, wish I had sold all my properties then, too! 


So, Sage, you know about the banks not wanting to be labeled as 'redlining'; it was the kiss of death??


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## goshengirl (Dec 18, 2010)

JayJay said:


> So, Sage, you know about the banks not wanting to be labeled as 'redlining'; it was the kiss of death??


I know about redlining. I worked with a small mortgage company in 1992 when it was all coming down. The boss was scared to death about these loans they were being forced to make - she knew it would break them.

And if these folks want to lump me into their 99%, they can kiss my posterior.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

IMMOLATUS wrote: "I assume noone believes that the 50% who dont pay taxes, are poor, who live on gubt handouts, in projects, are scared to get sick are actually happy or satisfied with their lot in life, self imposed or otherwise? Are the parents of the 25% of children who are on food stamps happy or proud when they have to feed their children with someone elses money because they are unable or unwilling?"

Its actually 47%, not 50%, but it may be higher soon.

There is actually an entire segment of the population who have made it their career to leech off the entitlement system... for life. I could take you to houses in the adjacent city near me where as many as four welfare generations live together. I have been in hundreds, if not thousands, of homes and apartments like that. The first thing I would notice is the BIG SCREEN TV, followed by the stereo, and toddlers stumbling around mostly unsupervised. These people have no shame in them. They think WE OWE THEM THE MONEY! Well meaning but left leaning churches actually have classes to instruct these people how to apply for every freebie program there is available - food stamps, WIC, fuel assistance, subsidized housing, free dental care, free medical care, school lunch program, after-school lunch program, soup kitchens, food banks, holiday food baskets.... The only expenses they really have is what they spend on "Rent-to-Own" furnishing, drugs, jewelry, cigarettes, alcohol, cars, drugs, $200 basketball shoes, sports team clothing, drugs, gambling... did I mention drugs? The only thing people like this are scared of is the prospect of having to really get a job and go to work.


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## Necred (Sep 26, 2010)

Millions have been taught that its their right to live off others and live by their rules. Unfortunatley, the "flea party" is a force to be reckoned with.
They, with union thugs, have the power & the ignorance.


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## stayingthegame (Mar 22, 2011)

right now I am one of those 50%ers. dh lost his job after a heart attack. the company had not paid insurance ( so we have no health ins.). he is trying to go back to work, but mean while he helps out at our volunteer fire dept. as a paramedic. we use the health care system to try and keep him in his meds we can't otherwise afford. I can't work due to a disability. we saved for over 30 years for retirement but how are going thru that to live on. we have paid into the system all those years and never ask for help. Now they say because the last 5 years were with the state dh is not going to get any disability help. they told him to go find a job and work 5 years and then maybe he would get something. he has been looking but because of the heart attack no one wants to hire him ( he's been looking for almost 5 months now). we owe over 200,000.00 for what happened now we are broke and can not even get food stamps because they use last years 1040.


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## Salekdarling (Aug 15, 2010)

stayingthegame said:


> right now I am one of those 50%ers. dh lost his job after a heart attack. the company had not paid insurance ( so we have no health ins.). he is trying to go back to work, but mean while he helps out at our volunteer fire dept. as a paramedic. we use the health care system to try and keep him in his meds we can't otherwise afford. I can't work due to a disability. we saved for over 30 years for retirement but how are going thru that to live on. we have paid into the system all those years and never ask for help. Now they say because the last 5 years were with the state dh is not going to get any disability help. they told him to go find a job and work 5 years and then maybe he would get something. he has been looking but because of the heart attack no one wants to hire him ( he's been looking for almost 5 months now). we owe over 200,000.00 for what happened now we are broke and can not even get food stamps because they use last years 1040.


Wow, that's insane. Wouldn't a heart attack be considered discrimination in the work place? Just because he had a heart attack does NOT mean he is invalid.  I'm assuming you have to wait to try and get food stamps until after taxes are over next year? Meh.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

stayingthegame said:


> right now I am one of those 50%ers. dh lost his job after a heart attack. the company had not paid insurance ( so we have no health ins.). he is trying to go back to work, but mean while he helps out at our volunteer fire dept. as a paramedic. we use the health care system to try and keep him in his meds we can't otherwise afford. I can't work due to a disability. we saved for over 30 years for retirement but how are going thru that to live on. we have paid into the system all those years and never ask for help. Now they say because the last 5 years were with the state dh is not going to get any disability help. they told him to go find a job and work 5 years and then maybe he would get something. he has been looking but because of the heart attack no one wants to hire him ( he's been looking for almost 5 months now). we owe over 200,000.00 for what happened now we are broke and can not even get food stamps because they use last years 1040.


Is your husband the paramedic? OSHA has a "presumption clause" nationwide that says that cancer, heart disease, and respiratory disease is automatically presumed to be job related for emergency workers, with benefits. Check into it.


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## stayingthegame (Mar 22, 2011)

he was working as a teacher when it happened.


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## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

stayingthegame said:


> right now I am one of those 50%ers. dh lost his job after a heart attack. the company had not paid insurance ( so we have no health ins.). he is trying to go back to work, but mean while he helps out at our volunteer fire dept. as a paramedic. we use the health care system to try and keep him in his meds we can't otherwise afford. I can't work due to a disability. we saved for over 30 years for retirement but how are going thru that to live on. we have paid into the system all those years and never ask for help. Now they say because the last 5 years were with the state dh is not going to get any disability help. they told him to go find a job and work 5 years and then maybe he would get something. he has been looking but because of the heart attack no one wants to hire him ( he's been looking for almost 5 months now). we owe over 200,000.00 for what happened now we are broke and can not even get food stamps because they use last years 1040.


Well, you could do like the girl whose mom worked for social services ---she told her to get out of the house or get a few belongings, put them in the car, tell the social worker she was living in her car---rewarded her with $400 in food stamps a month and mom let her move back in.
True story---Kentucky.


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## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

goshengirl said:


> I know about redlining. I worked with a small mortgage company in 1992 when it was all coming down. The boss was scared to death about these loans they were being forced to make - she knew it would break them.
> 
> And if these folks want to lump me into their 99%, they can kiss my posterior.


Yes, I've read of the fear of bankers and redlining.
And relating to this topic; my sister, age 60 and drug addict, her daughter(two brain tumors), and her daughter(unexpected miracle baby, radiation, etc) all live on our taxes...and S.S from two fathers....I feel sorry for them because they will starve when TSHTF...I cannot take her food now; she will give it away, or sell it.
I don't want that here--her behavior is one reason I moved.

I do have a bag of $1 items I find on sale or yard sales for the 11 year old or WTSHTF, she won't have socks and undie, and a few clothes. It's not her fault her mom and granny take her check.
There should be a program that oversees these children's checks or return to govt cheese, cereal, oatmeal, etc.
Sorry, I'm cruel, but if they haven't learned personal responsibility---we must do for them to help them survive.


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## dahur (Dec 18, 2009)

preventDamage said:


> I saw a sign that someone that was rich made. It said "I was born into wealth and I have so much when others are struggling to survive TAX ME! I am the 1% I stand with the 99%" I thought that was really cool.


I think you and I are hugely outnumbered on this thread! As to "thought that was cool". You have every right to think however you want without having to justify it to anybody. Problems arise when people state their "opinions" as facts. IMO, THAT's very confrontational.
I also "believe" this thread is only a couple wrong words away from a political confrontation.

Cudos to Warren Buffet! He da man, ( IMO).


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

dahur said:


> I think you and I are hugely outnumbered on this thread! As to "thought that was cool". You have every right to think however you want without having to justify it to anybody. Problems arise when people state their "opinions" as facts. IMO, THAT's very confrontational.
> I also "believe" this thread is only a couple wrong words away from a political confrontation.
> 
> Cudos to Warren Buffet! He da man, ( IMO).


Would you please address for the rest of us what "opinions" were used as "facts"?

Warren Buffet is an ass! Now, that is my opinion. Someone who is awash in billions of dollars saying that he isn't taxed enough. All 'ol Warren has to do is check the box and send his money in to the IRS. Show the other filthy rich how its done, Warren. Put your money where your mouth is. The House is working on a bill that will make it even easier for Mr. Stuffet, er, Buffet.


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## Immolatus (Feb 20, 2011)

Jezcruzen said:


> There is actually an entire segment of the population who have made it their career to leech off the entitlement system... for life. I could take you to houses in the adjacent city near me where as many as four welfare generations live together. I have been in hundreds, if not thousands, of homes and apartments like that. The first thing I would notice is the BIG SCREEN TV, followed by the stereo, and toddlers stumbling around mostly unsupervised. These people have no shame in them. They think WE OWE THEM THE MONEY! Well meaning but left leaning churches actually have classes to instruct these people how to apply for every freebie program there is available - food stamps, WIC, fuel assistance, subsidized housing, free dental care, free medical care, school lunch program, after-school lunch program, soup kitchens, food banks, holiday food baskets.... The only expenses they really have is what they spend on "Rent-to-Own" furnishing, drugs, jewelry, cigarettes, alcohol, cars, drugs, $200 basketball shoes, sports team clothing, drugs, gambling... did I mention drugs? The only thing people like this are scared of is the prospect of having to really get a job and go to work.


Jez: While I will agree that there is such a segment of the people that are permanent "leeches" on society, I would not think that its as large a segment of those on welfare as you (and others) think. I dont think either of us have the means to back up our positions factually.
2 points:
1) While these people you speak of, and they certainly exist, I am not doubting that, may live off the system and have big screen tv's, etc, may question is no matter how we may view them, do you think that they are actually happy with their situation? Yes, they may have a bunch of 'stuff' that may make them feel like they are actually doing well in society, but when it comes down to it, most of them are stuck in bad neighborhoods riddled with crime, drugs, family problems etc, live in housing projects/HUD/tenements etc. I would postulate that these people deep down are very unhappy with their situation.
2) It is the system that keeps them there, and for the most part wants them there. What would it mean for society if these people were cut off from the public teat? What would it mean for the gubt? What would it mean for you? Playing devils advocate, if they are all as bad as most people think, turning them loose on society and cutting them off would be disastrous. I think its easier for the gubt to keep them in this position to keep them complacent than to face the prospect of 48% of the population being completely cut off and becoming an angry unruly mob. The gubt has an active interest in keeping them at least somewhat satisfied with their positions because they would be disruptive to society, and a direct threat to all classes above them, and the PTB.

Staying in the game: I wish you the best of luck! Please try to keep a positive attitude!


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

Unfortunately, I was a career paid pessimist... seriously. As a firefighter, and later, as a chief officer we all were extensively trained to think ahead - not just what is happening now, but what could be happening minutes or hours from then and how to plan for it - and what could be the worst case scenario. All public safety personnel are trained that way. Just ask any of them.

It is not true that "the system" put these people in the situation they are in and that most don't like it. Minorities in this country have been catered to at least since the early 60's. I know, because I am old enough to have witnessed it all happen. Affirmative Action was, and still is, as racist as any Jim Crow law. Minorities have had given to them all the opportunities anyone could ask for - free education, including special consideration when it came to higher education with loans, grants, and eased admissions policies. Minorities have never been required to be responsible, nor have they been held accountable, even by their own. They were minorities, and that was/is the blanket excuse for irresponsible... even criminal behavior and no one would dispute it because they might be called a "RACIST". 

I have been a long time observer of human behavior. I have observed minority behavior for a long time. In fact, ten percent of the population caused 90 percent of the problems as I experienced during my career, which spanned over three decades. I don't require a poll, a survey, a study, or a spread sheet filled with numbers to tell or confirm what I already know.

We now have people of all races who are in REAL need due to the corrupt, inept governance of BOTH political parties. People who worked in our factories, our plants, our small businesses who now find themselves without a means of supporting themselves except with miniscule government handouts - people who made the right choices, were responsible and accountable, and were good citizens. They are now our concern, not those who violated our sovereignty by coming here illegally and who are now soaking up the entitlements or the homegrown parasites squeezing out one baby after another because it mean "mo money".

Limbaugh recently said that misplaced compassion is one reason we are in the shape we are in as a nation. I agree. Decisions made on "feelings" or "emotion" are usually terrible decisions. Personally, I think some of you who think that those abusing our generosity really don't want to be doing it need to just get over yourselves. In reality, they want even more.... they would take everything YOU have if they could, and there are people out there who are attempting to make it easy for them to do - "distributing the wealth".

Look, I can tell you are a good person. I don't mean to dismiss what you say or how you think. But its time for people to stick their heads up and see which way the wind is really blowing... and its an ill wind.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*What do they and the conservatives agree on?*

What do the Wall street protesters and Conservatives agree on ?

1. That the banks and big business should not have been bailed out!

2. That the money they spent on education was wasted !

What are the areas of disagreement?

1. That they should have gotten the money instead ?

2. That the government should give them a free , worthless education?

My solution to the Wall street protest would be to spray them all with a detergent mixture to remove the oil from their drawers and hair, just before the first freezing weather.

It worked to reduce the Starling population !


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## Beeorganic (Oct 11, 2011)

stayingthegame said:


> right now I am one of those 50%ers. dh lost his job after a heart attack. the company had not paid insurance ( so we have no health ins.). he is trying to go back to work, but mean while he helps out at our volunteer fire dept. as a paramedic. we use the health care system to try and keep him in his meds we can't otherwise afford. I can't work due to a disability. we saved for over 30 years for retirement but how are going thru that to live on. we have paid into the system all those years and never ask for help. Now they say because the last 5 years were with the state dh is not going to get any disability help. they told him to go find a job and work 5 years and then maybe he would get something. he has been looking but because of the heart attack no one wants to hire him ( he's been looking for almost 5 months now). we owe over 200,000.00 for what happened now we are broke and can not even get food stamps because they use last years 1040.


I don't mean to sound like a total curmudgeon here and this is not to be intended as a personal attack upon this person; However, when I read about someone who claims they can't work due to a disability- yet can type in complete sentences and convey a cohesive thought process on a forum site- it draws my ire and find it impossible to sit on my hands. There is absolutely, positively nothing a person of this sort can do for income? Nothing at ALL? Like on the computer? Starting a at home/cottage business (working your own hours when you felt capable)? $200 K in debt, and still (I'm speculating) can afford a computer and internet access? I have a neighbor who was a policeman a few years ago, until he went on disability because of a bad back. It's nice to know his disability doesn't prevent him from driving his truck with a fishing boat behind it 16 hours to TX to go fishing twice a year. It's stories like this I wish the system would collapse, you'd be surprised how quickly some would recover from their disability enough to be productive.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

The Wall-Street protesters are ignorant anti-capitalists who want everything for free. They've been indoctrinated into thinking all corporations are evil and anybody who has money is evil. A lot of other people have joined them because all they want to do is get drunk, get high, get laid, and then act like they changed the world. They're a joke.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

From Michelle Malkin

Unlike Tea Party activists who focused like a laser beam on politicians in both parties responsible for redistributing wealth to Big Business cronies by force, the Occupy Wall Street movement is everywhere and nowhere. The entitled Kamp Alinsky Kids are poaching WiFi and trespassing on private property under the guise of "social justice," but in plain service of themselves.
Their t-shirts and speeches glorify Marxist radicals Che Guevara, Emiliano Zapata, and Chairman Mao. They lionize convicted Death Row cop killer Troy Davis and WikiLeaks collaborator Bradley Manning. They condemn "Nazi Bankers," Jews, Fox News, the American Legislative
Exchange Council, Wisconsin GOP Gov. Scott Walker, the Koch family, and the New York Police Department ("pigs!"). They promote the illegal alien DREAM Act and 9/11 Trutherism.
They spout bumper-sticker profanities and inanities: "F**k banks." "Unf**k the world." "Fuuuuu*k." "Free education." "Smash nationalism."
"People not profits."
They flash peace signs while celebrity supporter Roseanne Barr calls for beheading financial industry workers and fellow marchers call explicitly for "violent revolution" or for Obama to "Send Seal Team 6" to Wall Street.
Then they huff and puff (preferably in a creepy, uniform chant they call the "human microphone") that we just haven't taken the time to understand what they're all about - as they hawk $20 "Eat the Rich" polo shirts and license their protest photos to Getty Images.
Viva la revolucion! Up with people! Stop the greed! (Cha-ching. Cha-ching.)


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

The media isn't covering the anti-semitism at the Occupy events around the country.

The PJ Tatler » More Anti-Semitism at Occupy Los Angeles

There's a lot there to check out.


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## Immolatus (Feb 20, 2011)

Ah, maybe the cities go bankrupt from the costs piling up? I would find that funny.

It would teach the PTB a lesson if the gubt (generally) goes broke not because of its shady/illicit dealings with the world (wars and empire/nation building specifically) but because it cannot satisfy its own citizenry, right or wrong and keep them complacent.


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## dahur (Dec 18, 2009)

Jezcruzen said:


> Would you please address for the rest of us what "opinions" were used as "facts"?
> 
> Warren Buffet is an ass! Now, that is my opinion. Someone who is awash in billions of dollars saying that he isn't taxed enough. All 'ol Warren has to do is check the box and send his money in to the IRS. Show the other filthy rich how its done, Warren. Put your money where your mouth is. The House is working on a bill that will make it even easier for Mr. Stuffet, er, Buffet.


Just go back and re-read the posts. Anything that doesn't have "I think, I believe, or in my opinion" is expressed as a fact(s), IMO.
There sure is a lot of them.....

I think it's funny in a sad sort of way that as soon as Warren Buffet backed the President, he has been attacked mercilessly.

I'll say it maybe loud enough for Rush, Sean, Glenn, and Sarah to hear too:
Go Mr. Buffet. You have all my respect!!!


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

dahur said:


> Just go back and re-read the posts. Anything that doesn't have "I think, I believe, or in my opinion" is expressed as a fact(s), IMO.
> There sure is a lot of them.....
> 
> I think it's funny in a sad sort of way that as soon as Warren Buffet backed the President, he has been attacked mercilessly.
> ...


No, YOU go read all of the previous posts. Basically, put up or shut up. YOU make the assertion regarding "facts" vs "opinion".

No one attacked Buffet for siding with the fraudulent marxist in the WH. Buffet was called out after his unbelievably stupid comment about not paying enough taxes. Now the House is passing a bill that would make it a lot easier for people like Buffet, and people who LIKE Buffet to sign that increased amount on the check and send it in to the IRS like good little socialists.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

Beeorganic said:


> I don't mean to sound like a total curmudgeon here and this is not to be intended as a personal attack upon this person; However, when I read about someone who claims they can't work due to a disability- yet can type in complete sentences and convey a cohesive thought process on a forum site- it draws my ire and find it impossible to sit on my hands. There is absolutely, positively nothing a person of this sort can do for income? Nothing at ALL? Like on the computer? Starting a at home/cottage business (working your own hours when you felt capable)? $200 K in debt, and still (I'm speculating) can afford a computer and internet access? I have a neighbor who was a policeman a few years ago, until he went on disability because of a bad back. It's nice to know his disability doesn't prevent him from driving his truck with a fishing boat behind it 16 hours to TX to go fishing twice a year. It's stories like this I wish the system would collapse, you'd be surprised how quickly some would recover from their disability enough to be productive.


Like you I cannot sit on my hands after reading your post. Now I know what you said, about the personal attack and I said ok. Then I read the rest of your post.

Don't you think that just maybe you could have said something like, have you ever thought about..... or maybe you could do something like... instead of basically saying that they just don't want to work and implying that they are trying to get on welfare so they don't have to work. I realize that you didn't come right out and say that, but it is what you implied.

Good Lord don't you think that a family can fall on hard times through no fault of their own and honestly deserve the help that they had never asked for before and had been paying for all of their working lives.

I didn't read anything about the brood mares, druggies, or any of the untold number of people actually abusing/milking the system.
I didn't read anything about those of us that think that that our tax dollars should go to folks that have fallen on bad time and are at least trying to pull themselve's up.

Basically what I read in your post was a personal attack on their character and I certainly don't believe this is the forum for such attacks.

You can lambast me all you want and it will roll off me like water on a duck's back, because I will just consider the source.

If this rebuttal to your post sounds harsh or you think that I am getting on your case you would be correct.

I don't think that I need say anymore other than if you want to start "crap" please take it somewhere else.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

Folks I am aware of what I have said in the past about starting pi$$ing contests and I honestly am not trying to start one now, it's just that I felt like that post should not go unanswered and because it really frosted my shorts.


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## stayingthegame (Mar 22, 2011)

we are trying to work. the debt is for medical bills from when dh had his heart attack and lost 80% of his heart. I sell candles and do sewing from my house. but we also live over 40 miles from a town of about 40,000 with unemployment at about 10%. dh can't walk more than a short distance before being out of breath. I can hardly walk at all. we have kept all others bills paid and have no other debt than what is owed the hospital. and that is because the people dh worked for failed to pay his blue cross. we own what we have because we did not but on credit. now when we could use some help with meds we can find very little help . just one of my meds run almost 4000.00 a month another runs almost 700.00 I have some insurance but right now hubby has none his new meds run us over 600.00 a month. right now his mom helps when she can. and maybe in about a month the doc will clear him to go to work and then he has some one who wants he to work so things will improve but until then......


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

stayingthegame said:


> we are trying to work. the debt is for medical bills from when dh had his heart attack and lost 80% of his heart. I sell candles and do sewing from my house. but we also live over 40 miles from a town of about 40,000 with unemployment at about 10%. dh can't walk more than a short distance before being out of breath. I can hardly walk at all. we have kept all others bills paid and have no other debt than what is owed the hospital. and that is because the people dh worked for failed to pay his blue cross. we own what we have because we did not but on credit. now when we could use some help with meds we can find very little help . just one of my meds run almost 4000.00 a month another runs almost 700.00 I have some insurance but right now hubby has none his new meds run us over 600.00 a month. right now his mom helps when she can. and maybe in about a month the doc will clear him to go to work and then he has some one who wants he to work so things will improve but until then......


I understand what you are saying and where you are comming from and I truly hope that you can get the help you deserve.

I know you didn't deserve what Beeorganic posted and that is why I posted the response that I did.

I will speak only for myself when I say that when I hear of good, hardworking folks like you needing help from the "system" that your tax dollars has supported all of your working lives, being denied that help.....Well lets just say that at the very least I am pissed. As I see it the system seems to be geared toward those sorry suckers that bleed it instead of folks like you that truly deserve the help.

I realize that what I have said dosen't help you with your troubles and I wish I had the answers to give you that would help, but I don't so about all I can offer is my prayers that the Lord shows you a way out or brings someone into your lives that has a solution.

God bless both of you and know that I will keep you in my prayers.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

+1,000,000,000


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## Salekdarling (Aug 15, 2010)

oldvet said:


> I understand what you are saying and where you are comming from and I truly hope that you can get the help you deserve.
> 
> I know you didn't deserve what Beeorganic posted and that is why I posted the response that I did.
> 
> ...


Well said Oldvet! :congrat::kiss::flower:


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## dahur (Dec 18, 2009)

Jezcruzen said:


> N
> 
> No one attacked Buffet for siding with the fraudulent marxist in the WH. Buffet was called out after his unbelievably stupid comment about not paying enough taxes. Now the House is passing a bill that would make it a lot easier for people like Buffet, and people who LIKE Buffet to sign that increased amount on the check and send it in to the IRS like good little socialists.


Wow, such hate and anger, IMO. (name calling usually is a sign) Rush is that you back there somewhere pulling the strings? Reminds me of my Dad. He parrots Rush all the time.


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## Immolatus (Feb 20, 2011)

Jezcruzen said:


> It is not true that "the system" put these people in the situation they are in and that most don't like it.


Hey, no offense taken. Just dont comment on my baldness! 

My point is not necessarily that the system PUT them there, but it certainly encourages them to stay. Why else would we allow a permanent, multi generational welfare condition? There can only be one reason; because we want it to exist.

I agree that if Warren Buffet wanted to be taxed more, he could always just write a check.

And lets please not attack someone whos come on hard times. I hope you didnt mean it how it came across.


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

Immolatus said:


> Hey, no offense taken. Just dont comment on my baldness!
> 
> My point is not necessarily that the system PUT them there, but it certainly encourages them to stay. Why else would we allow a permanent, multi generational welfare condition? There can only be one reason; because we want it to exist.
> 
> ...


I would say that we... you and I... mostly agree across the board. The "system" does indeed encourage dependance.

Oh, I won't comment on your baldness if you won't comment on mine... unless its a good comment, that is!


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

dahur said:


> Wow, such hate and anger, IMO. (name calling usually is a sign) Rush is that you back there somewhere pulling the strings? Reminds me of my Dad. He parrots Rush all the time.


Well, I will own up to the anger part. I am angry. I had the unfortunate experience yesterday of listening to some of Obama's "speech" from his stop in N.C. What an arrogant, race-baiting, divisive, lying, conniving, POS he is! His "jobs bill" is a sham. No way could he ever do with half a billion what he is claiming it will do to "put people back to work". Total nonsense, and some are buying it!

Yes, I am angry. Every American should be angry at what is being done to our Republic by this shyster and his goons.

Your dad sounds like a wise person. Nothing wrong with repeating the truth.


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## stayingthegame (Mar 22, 2011)

of the 99%,I think that only 50% know what hard work is. and by that I mean working and getting paid what the job is worth. many of these students seem to think that going to school and getting a degree is the only thing will make life better. when dh and I had a business, we tried to find help. most of the ones who applied did not seem to want a job that you 'sweat' at. we were working side by side with them. so many of them were 'going to school and wanted a real job'. I wonder how many of them are paying off large school debts and still 'sweating at a job'. so many people still look down down on the trades such as electrical, plumbing, ect. who does the doc call when the sh*** comes out of the toilet? his laywer? the younger people seem to expect that what their parents have is what they deserve. most of worked sweated and earned what we have none of it was a given. I not judging, my dau is among them, and I try to make her see that what I have was achieved by working hard and doing without until we could pay for it not by charging it. thats why we have no debt now (except medical). and why we will get that taken care of as fast as we can. I don't have a lot but what I have is mine.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

Jezcruzen said:


> Well, I will own up to the anger part. I am angry. I had the unfortunate experience yesterday of listening to some of Obama's "speech" from his stop in N.C. What an arrogant, race-baiting, divisive, lying, conniving, POS he is! His "jobs bill" is a sham. No way could he ever do with half a billion what he is claiming it will do to "put people back to work". Total nonsense, and some are buying it!
> 
> Yes, I am angry. Every American should be angry at what is being done to our Republic by this shyster and his goons.
> 
> Your dad sounds like a wise person. Nothing wrong with repeating the truth.


ROTF! :congrat::congrat::congrat::wave:


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## dahur (Dec 18, 2009)

Jezcruzen said:


> Well, I will own up to the anger part. I am angry. I had the unfortunate experience yesterday of listening to some of Obama's "speech" from his stop in N.C. What an arrogant, race-baiting, divisive, lying, conniving, POS he is! His "jobs bill" is a sham. No way could he ever do with half a billion what he is claiming it will do to "put people back to work". Total nonsense, and some are buying it!
> 
> Yes, I am angry. Every American should be angry at what is being done to our Republic by this shyster and his goons.
> 
> Your dad sounds like a wise person. Nothing wrong with repeating the truth.


You forgot to add "In my opinion", because that's all it is.

I will say this about Rush, Sean, Glenn, & Sarah. I give them credit for having the uncanny ability/talent to keep their core of followers mad and angry IMO. I think they earn those millions, through their mesmerizing, entrancing, hypnotic skills at wordsmithing, inflection, and emotion. 
For a while my Dad quit listening to Rush. When Rush made the statement "I hope the President fails!" My Dad felt that was wrong, that if the President fails, then the country fails, and he didn't want that to happen.
To his credit, My Dad taught me to be an independent thinker, and that made it near impossible for him, or anybody to impose their will on me. 
No way do I agree with President Obama on everything he says, but overall I support our President. I am against entitlement programs! However there ARE some people that need help, and deserve to get it. The trick is weeding out all the lazy bums. This abuse of the system has been going on for decades, and decades. Not just the last 3 years, LOL, as I think the above would have all believe! 
I never liked the 2nd Bush. But I never sent out daily, (or hourly) hate e-mail, or ever. I never called our President hateful names. I never laid awake at night trying to come up with out of context statements on things he said, to fuel people's hate and anger. 
As I previously said, I'm an independent thinker.....I won't allow anybody to mind manipulate me.

My neighbor has been preaching doom and gloom also for the last 3 years. I finally asked him....please explain to me exactly how has YOUR life gotten worse over the last three years? 
Well, he couldn't, because it hasn't. His response was, "Oh it will!"
I replied, "You've been saying 'It will' for three years! When's it gonna happen?" His silence was deafening.

IMO, any "change" is a direct threat to the status quo of the ultra rich, and greedy corporations. And will be (is) fought on all fronts with all available artillery. That's MY independent thinking, and I'm sticking to it.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

dahur said:


> You forgot to add "In my opinion"
> 
> I will say this about Rush, Sean, Glenn, & Sarah. I give them credit for having the uncanny ability/talent to keep their core of followers mad and angry IMO. I think they earn those millions, through their mesmerizing, entrancing, hypnotic skills at wordsmithing, inflection, and emotion.
> For a while my Dad quit listening to Rush. When Rush made the statement "I hope the President fails!" My Dad felt that was wrong, that if the President fails, then the country fails, and he didn't want that to happen.
> ...


I think maybe this thread belongs in the "Politics" category but I will say this:

Ever since Obama said that he wanted to "fundamentally tranform the United States of America" I have wanted him to fail. I do not want him to fundamentally transform this great nation. The fundamentals are sound and have served this nation well. The fact is we need to get back to fundamentals.

Obama: "Fundamentally Transforming the United States of America" - YouTube

So yes, I do hope he ultimately fails. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that line of thinking and I would venture a guess that maybe you have been duped into thinking that there is something wrong with that sort of thinking... think about it some more and see if you dont change your mind.


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## dahur (Dec 18, 2009)

TheAnt said:


> I think maybe this thread belongs in the "Politics" category but I will say this:
> 
> Ever since Obama said that he wanted to "fundamentally tranform the United States of America" I have wanted him to fail. I do not want him to fundamentally transform this great nation. The fundamentals are sound and have served this nation well. The fact is we need to get back to fundamentals.
> 
> ...


I have previously thought about it a lot, and I try to choose my words carefully. On this, I agree with what my Father said: "If our President fails, then our country fails. I don't want that to ever happen". He made that statement despite his hatred of President Obama. My pride and respect for my Father grew leaps and bounds! Neither do I. And if you think about it some more.....

I think something extraordinary is going to have to take place to stop what appears to me, as a downward spiral of this great country. A downward spiral that started way before the current administration, IMO. Something extraordinary, I think, is going to HAVE to fundamentally transform this country to stop our destruction. Unfortunately, I think any "transformation" means a loss of revenue for certain groups, and individuals. I think it will continue to be fought in the trenches right to the bitter end, whatever the end is I don't know. And no one else does either.

School kids read about "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire".
IMO, unless there IS a change in the current status quo, the "business as usual", I fear someday people may be reading about "The Rise and Fall of The United States of America"


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

dahur, I really can't force myself to get through all of your posts. Its just the same old same old that two categories of people spout - socialist apologists or immature young adults.

Listen up, dahur... this country... the United States of America is more stable, is more strong, is more resilient than any one man or woman... than any president, even a president as inept, as corrupt, as narcissistic as the one we suffer from currently. We will remain that way as a country as long as most Americans are able to recognize right from wrong. Simple.

So, you asked your neighbor if they could point to how worse off they are now than three years ago and they didn't give you an answer you liked so automatically being worse off under Obama is fiction. Is that right?

It would be my guess that you are not the one in your family who "brings home the bacon" but maybe lives off the one who does. You must have no experience supporting a household month to month as inflation takes hold and costs shoot up. You don't buy the groceries, fill the tank up, or pay the health insurance premiums... all of which are rising as the result of your bud Obama. 

"We have to pass it so we'll know whats in it". Thats what that witch from San Francisco said on the House floor as the sham health care bill was rammed down America's throat when 70% opposed the bill. The negative impact of Obama on this society doesn't happen overnight. This one success of the shyster Obama is already beginning to stress the seams of this nation and it doesn't begin to go into effect until next year. Its not about health. Its about control... control of people like you... young people who will look back one day and say to themselves, "Why was I so blind? Why was I so gullible? Why was I such a ******* to believe anything that conniving marxist had to say?"

While you are so busy finding reasons to dislike Limbaugh, Beck, and whoever else it is you have developed a hate relationship for, Obama and his administration are busy disrupting small businesses, including farming, industry (whatever is left), energy development, land use - even private property, through Executive Orders, draconian regulation by his EPA, HHS, DOT, ICE, and a bevy of similar government alphabet agencies that are designed to have far-reaching effects from now on towards dissolving private property rights, strangling productivity, and bringing this once great country that Obama hates in-line with the UN, as in Agenda 21, and a New World Order. Now, thats not "opinion". That is really happening and YOU will have to live it (if you can) far longer than I will!

"When I was a child, I behaved as a child. When I became a man, I put away childish things."


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

Jezcruzen said:


> "When I was a child, I behaved as a child. When I became a man, I put away childish things."


Dr. Robert Doback: When I was a kid, when I was a little boy, I always wanted to be a dinosaur, I wanted to be a Tyrannosaurus Rex more than anything in the world, I made my arms short and I roamed the back yard, I chased the neighborhood cats, I growled and I roared, everybody knew me and was afraid of me, and one day my dad said "Bobby you are 17, it's time to throw childish things aside" and I said "OK Pop", but he didn't really say that, he said that "Stop being a [email protected]<!^g dinosaur and get a job".

:lolsmash:

sorry had to do it


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

TheAnt said:


> I think maybe this thread belongs in the "Politics" category but I will say this:
> 
> Ever since Obama said that he wanted to "fundamentally tranform the United States of America" I have wanted him to fail. I do not want him to fundamentally transform this great nation. The fundamentals are sound and have served this nation well. The fact is we need to get back to fundamentals.
> 
> ...


Ant,

You nailed it Brother, I also hope he fails. 
His failure to transform this Nation from a Republic to a Marxist/Communistic form of Government will not IMO bring this Country down, but what he and his stooges are attempting to do, if sucessful will certainly be the end of our Republic and freedoms we enjoy.


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## GreyWolf (Mar 17, 2010)

Jezcruzen said:


> dahur, I really can't force myself to get through all of your posts. Its just the same old same old that two categories of people spout - socialist apologists or immature young adults.
> 
> Listen up, dahur... this country... the United States of America is more stable, is more strong, is more resilient than any one man or woman... than any president, even a president as inept, as corrupt, as narcissistic as the one we suffer from currently. We will remain that way as a country as long as most Americans are able to recognize right from wrong. Simple.
> 
> ...


Very well stated.


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## dahur (Dec 18, 2009)

Jezcruzen said:


> It would be my guess that you are not the one in your family who "brings home the bacon" but maybe lives off the one who does. You must have no experience supporting a household month to month as inflation takes hold and costs shoot up. You don't buy the groceries, fill the tank up, or pay the health insurance premiums... all of which are rising as the result of your bud Obama.
> 
> While you are so busy finding reasons to dislike Limbaugh, Beck, and whoever else it is you have developed a hate relationship for, a New World Order. Now, thats not "opinion". That is really happening and YOU will have to live it (if you can) far longer than I will!
> "


Well I guess you're not always right in your intuitions, but thanks for judging me anyways! (Although so far off base you're out of the park)
Just to enlighten you in your misperceptions, I've never won anything, inherited anything, or received anything from anybody I didn't earn. 
I worked very hard and long hours for over 30 years repairing phone lines, all the while running my own business (laundromat and drycleaners) . Paid my 30 year home mortgage off in 12 years, in 1988, and I've been debt free since. I owe nobody a nickle, sold my business, retired from AT&T and moved here to NM in 2008.
(Wow, you weren't even close!)

Don't have "hate" relationship with Rush, or the rest, but thanks for putting words in "my" mouth. 
Funny thing, I saw Beck on another talk show saying he doesn't believe most of what he says, it's just for the ratings! Lol....
(Now I expect to hear an attack on Beck)

Look, I've been on this forum long enough to know I'm vastly outnumbered in "my opinions". I know I'm waging a war with numerous opponents on many fronts. I see the little political jabs gotten in here quite often, and have said nothing. I HAVE been recieving several PM's from members, agreeing with me, and thinking they were the only ones who thought the way I do. And they congratulated me for having the fortitude to go against the majority here. (Thanks again you guys!)

BTW, speaking of the majority. As I told my Dad, when he was angry (again) about something, the President doesn't waltz into the room, wave his magic wand, and make things happen. He has to have the majority agree with him to make anything happen. So whatever happens, or doesn't happen is because the MAJORITY wants, or wanted it that way. (IMO)


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## dahur (Dec 18, 2009)

Jezcruzen said:


> dahur, I really can't force myself to get through all of your posts. Its just the same old same old that two categories of people spout - socialist apologists or immature young adults.


You forgot to add "In my opinion", because that's all it is.

Therein lies one of the major problems with discussing religion or politics. IMO, the problems arise when people have no respect for other people's opinion(s) that oppose theirs. Opposing opinions are quickly discounted,( like above). It comes off to me as: "My words count...yours don't!
I'm right, you're wrong. I know what I'm talking about....YOU don't!
THIS is the way it is....why?.....because I said so, and you just have to accept it." I don't think so.

I think that's why these discussions very often escalate out of control. I decided long ago, not to raise my voice, to accept, and respect people's "opinion's" even if I don't agree with them. I don't ever want to sink way down to the level of calling people names, for IMO, if I did that, I'm throwing in the towel. Game over. Resorting to name calling, IMO, is the same as saying, " I got nothin...so I'll call you names".


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

TheAnt said:


> Those companies dont deserve anything from the gov't either. There is nothing American about those companies getting bailed out just like there is nothing American about those blood suckers protesting for more handouts.


 Very good Ant.Could'nt have said it better myself,but then you already know that .


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

dahur said:


> I have previously thought about it a lot, and I try to choose my words carefully. On this, I agree with what my Father said: "If our President fails, then our country fails. I don't want that to ever happen". He made that statement despite his hatred of President Obama. My pride and respect for my Father grew leaps and bounds! Neither do I. And if you think about it some more.....
> 
> I think something extraordinary is going to have to take place to stop what appears to me, as a downward spiral of this great country. A downward spiral that started way before the current administration, IMO. Something extraordinary, I think, is going to HAVE to fundamentally transform this country to stop our destruction. Unfortunately, I think any "transformation" means a loss of revenue for certain groups, and individuals. I think it will continue to be fought in the trenches right to the bitter end, whatever the end is I don't know. And no one else does either.
> 
> ...


 Ironic that you bring up The Roman Empire .If you compared today with then ,you'd see the very same kinds of people protesing 'OWS' are the kind who took down the empire of Rome. Immoral,violent citizens and radical demanding immigrants invited in by the lazy gredy citizens .
Also there comes a time when freedom of speech is sedition at best treason at worst. Freedom of speech is not free,it has to be earned and guarded or it is lost .


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## Gravlore (Dec 10, 2011)

PopPop said:


> Please dont include me in the 99%. We are struggeling but do not endorse the collectivist solution. The bank bailouts were the wrong thing to do and have caused all of us to suffer to some degree and this 99%ers occupation should have been expected and probably was even desired. We are on course for the destruction of the republic and that will not benefit anyone.


Its a republic only in name. You sir are in an Oligarchy.


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## TarheelPrepper (Dec 13, 2011)

One way to tame this "Oligarchy" and restore our Republic is to implement Congressional term limits. No more career politicians.

However, if the elitist few have amassed enough power and control then they'll prevent this from happening. If that is the case then blood and bullets will be required to restore the Republic. At the Constitutional Convention in 1787 when asked about the type of government being drawn up, Ben Franklin replied, "A republic, if you can keep". I'm afraid we're losing our Republic faster and faster every day, every election.


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## azurevirus (Jan 20, 2009)

*99%*

I agree with Mikesolid on this, if I had a kid that was doing this..oh boy, they would know hard times for real after that..they seem to know not what their purpose is..a different kid gives a different reason..and all they are doing is hurting real working ppl..and yet Nancy Pelosi applauds them, keep it up Nancy and you will lose the senate and the presidency..(I ferverently hope)


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## dataman19 (Dec 4, 2011)

I read this entire thread,,,
Boy the fangs and claws are fully extended...
.
Fact: The Constitution affords the right of "free Speech" and "Freedom of Expression" to every man woman and child.
.
Fact I server 24 Years in The Military to support our Constitution. I retired after 24-years (and didn't stay 30 because I saw the writing on the wall - Our Government doesn't care about the Average American).
.
I watch in disbelief in Phoenix as the Police randomly showered the Occupy Phoenix Protestors with pepper spray. Why? Because the policemen are pissed off at them.
.
I watch in disbelief as the Oakland California Authorities ordered the removal of Porta Potty (portable Bathrooms) and locked the public restrooms in the parks so they could "Cite Health hazards" as a reason to deny the Protestors their right to free speech.
.
All across the country people are trying to exercise their freedom of speech - yet the government doesn't want to grant that to them.
.
I lived and worked in Germany in the 1980's. The German people were protesting our Persian II Missiles being stationed in Germany. the Persian II Missile is capable of carrying a tactical nuclear warhead.
.
The German protestors shouted and screamed and even laid down in the street. The German Police picked them up and put them on the side of the road. Why - because in Germany they have a Constitution that gives the Citizens the right to free Speech and Guarantees their Right To Freedom of Expression. It is a constitutional right - not a privilege. Protesting without rioting is one of those "guaranteed" privileges.
..
Policemen are there to protect and serve the public - not to decide who can and cannot have the right to free speech.
.
The mortgage crisis was caused by wall street and our Government Bozos who were all asleep at the wheel. they should have been tending to the business of the People of These United states - not getting payola and paid under the table by special interest groups who's only purpose is to drain the Treasury. 
.
They bail out Wall Street under the guise that people are losing their pension. When in fact it is the executive bonuses and Balloon Payments that were really at risk.The mom and pop's who's life savings were at risk - they lost them anyway - why, because all those mom and pops were not parts of the special interest lobby's that have financial strings holding the Congressman and Senators. Was this wrong - Only the absolute stupidest couldn't see it.
.
The Banks scream that the Mortgage scandal has hurt housing values, and therefore placed them at risk of losing money if people walk out on their mortgages. They scream that they need money to stay afloat. While hammering those very mortgage holders to pay up under the threat of foreclosure. Congress does something unprecedented - they make the banks adjust mortgages and Freddie Mac underwrites the mortgage adjustment program.
..
Enter the special Interest groups (you know the people who pay the Congressmen and Senators to do what "they want" - not what is in the best interest of the American Citizens). They convince the Congress to Bail Out The Banks (Its Good For The economy after all). Then the bill is written where Banks can be reimbursed by the Feds at a rate of 115% of the original Loan Value of the loan if they buy a bad mortgage from another FDIC insured banking institution. So all the banks have to to is stop readjusting mortgages, sell the mortgage to "other" banks, who collect up to 115% of the original loan amount as a financial incentive to foreclose. So the banks do just that - they take those $300K 20-year Notes that are 14-years old and sell the remaining note balance to their buddy at the "other Bank" who then forecloses and collects the $345K Bailout Check. Then they liquidate the property and keep what the foreclosure sells for as profit. Forget adjusting mortgages - there is more profit in foreclosure liquidation.
.
Then the auto makers step up to the public money trough. Congress bails out the Auto Makers and the Feds demand that they scale down" and liquidate dealerships - putting thousands of people out of work. This is after all what the Special Interest Groups who have the Congressional and Senatorial Legislators on their payroll want - to strengthen their financial positions, the needs of the country are secondary... So all the car dealers are shut down and the buildings torn down. 
.
So how is it the government can just hand out money - money they obviously don't have? They can't.
.
So the occupy movement people see a problem. So they protest. It is their Constitutional Right. I may not agree with everything they say but hey - I SERVED TO GUARANTEE THEM THE RIGHT TO FREEDOM OF SPEECH. I stand by that guarantee - my service to my country is testament to my defense of that right and I challenge anyone to try and take it away. People who don't vote are telling me that these people shouldn't be afforded their right to freedom of speech. State and Local Governments don't think they should have any rights to free speech (as demonstrated by the local governments aggressive behavior and attempts to set constitutional privileges aside to further their "private funded" agendas.
.
I also stand by your right to disagree with me - it's your opinion and your right. What I do not stand by or agree with is the right of anyone to deny anyone else of their freedom of speech, to the right of peaceful assembly and yes even to protest stupid and ignorant and sometimes criminal government behavior.
.
If our Congressmen and senators were actually working for the American People instead of working to maximize their bribe income - then maybe those protestors wouldn't have anything to protest about.
.
An associate (and fellow retiree) recently eMailed me and asked if I was afraid of the coming 21 Dec 2012 date. I eMailed back and told him I am not, no more than I was afraid of Y2K. But I am afraid of the current state of our country. A country that has mutated to a borderline police state. A country where the Constitution has no meaning. And the Occupy movement is a catalyst that may or may not turn out to be good. If it effects government reforms and causes the Congressmen and Senators to open their eyes and see their own corruption and clean up their act - it will be a good thing. On the other hand - if the dark forces that want to control and dismantle all that our Country Stands for continues to influence our Leaders and pushes them along the dark path where protestors are just seen as moving targets for policemen and their net worth to society reduced to puppet and pawn status - it won't turn out well. Like one poster already pointed out - it only takes one hot head on either side to escalate the problem. The police can only brutalize the public for so long before someone figures out that they have the police out numbered and act upon a dark impulse to create mayhem and disorder. In Germany the Police realize that they are there to protect and serve the public - but they also realize that the public can turn on them any time. therefore the German Police respect the public. In the United States - the opposite is true. the police believe they are superior and want the public to be afraid of them (they have a bully mentality - and bullies almost always cause more problems that not). The powder keg is growing. No I am not afraid of 21Dec2-12 - I am concerned with the upcoming revolution. A revolution that will be more costly in human life and suffering than anyone could realistically imagine. A revolution that will be amplified by political corruption and greed.
.
21Dec2012 doesn't scare me. Our Governments corruption and political graft and greed scare me. Dark days are ahead. And I fear that the Citizens of these United states need to wake up and quit clinging to false promises being made by politicians who only want to continue the gravy train and could care less about their fellow citizens. It's time to clean house in the Congress and Senate. It's time to limit terms to two terms. It's time to bring America Back to the Land where Freedom takes precedence over corporate greed and political graft. It's time for the American People to Take back "Their" Country.
.
Incidentally the 1% has realized a net worth increase in wealth of over 800% gain in the last four years. the 99% are paying the majority of the taxes and doing so with 45% less income per capita.
.
My late father owned a factory. He employed over 4,000 people. He got tax breaks for creating and maintaining jobs. He also paid a lot in taxes as well. In 1974 my late father paid over $190K in personal income taxes. His plant paid over $50K in monthly payroll Taxes and Social Security. Now we have a country where we don't have factory jobs (more accurately - most of our factory jobs have been moved to other country's). We eliminate over 60,000 jobs a quarter, and replace them with only 40,000 new jobs. This isn't growth, this is destructive.
.
So why is it that the Government has less money to spend? - because they have less payroll taxes coming in. Simple math. Less workers paying less payroll taxes equals less revenue. To make matters worse, tobacco sales are down, so tobacco taxes are also down. And all those Wal-Marts are keeping a majority of the sales taxes they collect as an incentive to keep selling those Chinese imitation products"
.
Like I said - I DEFEND THE RIGHTS OF ALL AMERICANS TO EXERCISE THEIR RIGHTS TO FREE SPEECH. But then I consider myself one of the 99%. And most of all "I AM AN AMERICAN"...
.
Dave
Phoenix, AZ


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## dahur (Dec 18, 2009)

Well said Dave. I also consider myself one of the 99%. I'm so glad you said "Congress, Congressmen, Senators".


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

Dataman, thres more to it than wha you are saying,imo.
First off these protesters 'free speech'should never interfere with others freedm of movement or public or private entrance to business . They have caused many small shpos to close because people could'nt get to them because of the protesters.
Also vacatcy is not free speech or the right to assembly if it interfers with the rights of others or causes public outbreaks of deseases and crimes like rapes and beatings.
Protest and then go home and come back next day,don't move into a tent cty of filth and crime. Don't say you have the right to stop others from freedom of movement.
I went to one of these OWS protest and these people from what I saw and read from their own flyers are one worlder,open border anti-Amarican communist on the most part.
Tea Party was hopeful they did'nt shit in the streets or on cop cars ,nobody was raped,they cleaned up after themselves ,they went home or to a motel .Then the polititions got inside and ruined everything.


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

dahur said:


> Well said Dave. I also consider myself one of the 99%. I'm so glad you said "Congress, Congressmen, Senators".


 What I don't understand about people who defend these ows protesters is the fact that they are against more of our laws and constitution and bill of rights than they are for.
They are against freedom of association for all others;against private property;the right to keep what you earn and not be forced to provide for others ; to demand that our president be an American and can prove it; to impeach leaders and judges who refuse to obey the rules set gorth by the constitution; the right to bear arms ;the right to keep America,America and protect its sovereingty from outside invasions and other ignored issues I can't even think of at the moment.


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## dalkathas (Oct 15, 2012)

Im one of the 99% and i dont want a handout, i want a fair chance, and the way our system is set up i have no way of getting that chance. The Federal Reserve is nothing more than a pyramid scheme making the bankers richer and richer and the rest of us poorer and poorer. We live in a society where Halliburton, JPMorgan Chase, Wal-Mart and Monsanto write our laws and own our politicians. A society in which Corporations are entitled to Constitutional protection, what kind of BS is that? Meerkat, im not against any the rights you claim im against, Im against Corporate Greed and what that greed has done to what should be the greatest nation on the planet, but isnt, at least not in any good way. Our founding fathers did not intend for us to live as virtual slaves, owned by Corporations. OWS isnt about getting handouts, its about living free from oppression.


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## Startingout-Blair (Aug 28, 2012)

I spent 6 1/2 years in the army as enlisted (Sergeant). I then worked full time at a factory while getting my degree at night and weekends full time. I was what you call a 99%ER. I then got a job with the Federal Govt, and then with a contractor after that. In 10 years I was making approximately $150,000. I believe that is considered a 1%ER (over $200,000) with the wife's income. We lived in the Washington DC area and still struggled with bills. I don't see how this system is set up for others to not make it. Anyone can if they work hard, make good decisions, and try their best! 
Of course, now I am partially paralyzed and in massive pain daily due to bad back surgery. I cannot work. Believe me, I tried after surgery, but they let me go because they were afraid I would fall and sue them. I now collect SSD (I was totally vested before I even got into the system) and I was smart enough to pay for long-term disability insurance. Am I rich? Hell no! But I'm also not starving


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## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

I am a 1%, because our combined income is well over $250,000 even with my business losing $200,000 worth of business over the last 4 years. I don't have a college degree, my wife doesn't either... Both of us were 6 digit earners before hitting 35 years of age. Anyone who is willing to work, and I mean work, putting in 70 hrs for a 40 hr pay check, always looking for opportunities to better oneself or the business they work for, etc. can lead to financial success... The only one holding a person down is the person.


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## Startingout-Blair (Aug 28, 2012)

I'm in total agreement with Invision.


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

I have no sympathy for the OWS crowd, none at all, but I can't go as far as supporting Invision's conclusion that "The only one holding a person down is the person." I'd like to see whether Invision and his wife could earn their incomes if we plonked them down in Somalia.

Our personal success are embedded within societal foundations and when the rules of society can be shifted to advantage one group then people in other groups will suffer due to structural reasons. It's very hard to make a $250,000 per year income in Somalia no matter how hard you work nor how well educated you are.


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## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

Bobbb said:


> I have no sympathy for the OWS crowd, none at all, but I can't go as far as supporting Invision's conclusion that "The only one holding a person down is the person." I'd like to see whether Invision and his wife could earn their incomes if we plonked them down in Somalia.
> 
> Our personal success are embedded within societal foundations and when the rules of society can be shifted to advantage one group then people in other groups will suffer due to structural reasons. It's very hard to make a $250,000 per year income in Somalia no matter how hard you work nor how well educated you are.


Bobbb, we live in America... Not Somalia... Since I live in the US, I only care about the US... However, I guarantee you something buddy - no matter where I would be plopped down in, I would strive to be the best I can be, and I would climb to be the best, and I would become a top earner... That isn't "tree hugging" "social foundation" rhetoric that you spree with each post. Man, it is 100% my chemical makeup. My grandfathers on both sides became self made, both without college educations, my parents with colleges educations, made their own fortune with out assistance, I without the college degree just followed in their footsteps and guess what - without assistance... It's in my DNA to strive to be the way I am....

I feel some jealousy from you which is truly sad, since you seem educated... i do have to ask, If your not 1%, then what's your excuse? Not everyone feels the need to strive to be 1% which is completely acceptable, however don't pick a fight with me unless you think you can win it son, Remember I have asked you to debate any topic you want in the off grid area and you shut up for 2-3 weeks... Hmmm still care to my offer is still open?... Remember no stating research just from your mind, heart and soul...

For anyone else, please understand, what I claimed as its the fault of the people, I think it is... If anyone works hard, stops blaming everyone but themselves (oh wow that sounds like Obama) anyone can be what they want to be. If you love working on cars, then become a mechanic, if you love science become a doctor or teacher or engineer. The main thing is, when you choose your path, understand the payout your determining. If your comfortable making $30,000 a year, and live within those means and you are happy, in my book you are no better than me, and I have extremely close friends who are in this category. If instead, you were a sales guy and became unemployed and didn't do anything about bettering yourself - retooling, improving sales skills, changing professions, etc and only bitch about it, then you are to blame.


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

invision said:


> That isn't "tree hugging" "social foundation" rhetoric that you spree with each post. Man, it is 100% my chemical makeup. My grandfathers on both sides became self made, both without college educations, my parents with colleges educations, made their own fortune with out assistance, I without the college degree just followed in their footsteps and guess what - without assistance... It's in my DNA to strive to be the way I am....


Your income is derived from working with computers, so what if the companies that hired you for your services got it into their head that they were paying too much and used their political influence to create programs in government which actively sought to import 5,000,000 new immigrants with your exact skill set and who could match the capital resources you have invested in your operation? Do you know enough basic economics to tell us what happens to your income when demand for your service remains constant but the suppliers of the service increase 100-fold in two years?

This is what I'm talking about - the rules of the game can be changed by one group so that there are deleterious effects washing over other groups.

Check this graph:










I've talked about this effect at length in other threads - economic gains from commerce are split between the input provided by labor and the input provided by capital. The allocation of gains between labor and capital is highly dependent on their scarcity. When capital works to open the immigration gates then the effect is to flood the labor market with more workers, thereby increasing labor supply and producing a smaller allocation of gains towards labor. The system is gamed.

Look at that graph. During the period of immigration restriction the labor share of national income rose in relation to what was allocated to capital and after immigration reform opened the flood gates capital once again started to capture more and more of the gains arising from increased productivity.



> I *feel* some jealousy from you which is truly sad, since you seem educated...


I'm sure that you're not intended to come across like a comedian, but you make my sides split with your projections.

Let me try this mode of thinking:

I sense that you passed gas as you were writing that comment and I know this because I can smell it coming across the fiber optic cables. What's that you say - gaseous clouds can't be transmitted across thousands of miles of fiber optic cables. Pah, don't bother me with reason and logic, if I *"feel"* something then it must be anchored in reality.​


> don't pick a fight with me unless you think you can win it son


Watch me in action - I never stake out a position on topics which rest on mere opinion. When I debate, I win.



> Remember I have asked you to debate any topic you want in the off grid area and you shut up for 2-3 weeks... Hmmm still care to my offer is still open?...


Because you're speaking Swahili. I looked at the main page of this board and there is no discussion forum called "off-grid"



> Remember no stating research just from your mind, heart and soul...


This is the most bizarre thing I've read in a long time. A totally fact-free debate where if you, in your heart, believe that the color red is actually green, then I can't dispute your soulful view on this topic by citing light spectra which shows you to be wrong.

A debate is not constrained by bizarre rules like "No facts and only emotion."



> For anyone else, please understand, what I claimed as its the fault of the people, I think it is... If anyone works hard, stops blaming everyone but themselves (oh wow that sounds like Obama) anyone can be what they want to be.


Can Arnold Swartzenegger become President? No, he can't because the structure of our governance system prohibit him from achieving that goal. Can you become a physician without going to medical school? No, you can't because government is going to throw your ass in jail when you begin practicing medicine without being licensed. Can you open up a barber shop in your basement and start charging for haircuts? In many states that would make you a criminal.

The point is that some groups capture the power of government to pass laws which benefit them and impose costs on the rest of society.


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## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

Bobbb said:


> Your income is derived from working with computers, so what if the companies that hired you for your services got it into their head that they were paying too much and used their political influence to create programs in government which actively sought to import 5,000,000 new immigrants with your exact skill set and who could match the capital resources you have invested in your operation? Do you know enough basic economics to tell us what happens to your income when demand for your service remains constant but the suppliers of the service increase 100-fold in two years?
> 
> This is what I'm talking about - the rules of the game can be changed by one group so that there are deleterious effects washing over other groups.


Here we go with Mr. Bobbb's wonderful world of research... Actually Bobbb, I have consulted on more than just IT, try SAS70 compliance, SOX, management consulting in the banking industry, etc. example, i was a co-lead on a large Canadian bank consolidating 120+ call centers into 2 super centers... the cost savings? Millions... So I would adjust my practice. I have several firms that I have turned down over the last 4 years to come on with them, everyone from Microsoft and Cisco, to the top 5 financial consulting firms... So I think I would still be a top earner.

Now let me refute your example, i was one of the first 3 companies in Atlanta to offer a managed service platform, now there are hundreds, some competitors, i have even guided a few down the path on how to do it. for example, if you call Sharp Business Solutions of Ga, yes Sharp, and ask about managed service or online storage you will end up talking to me. When managed service was an infant in IT 6+ years ago, I spent the money to build out as system that could be white labeled, then I worked to resell with other vendors. As market matured, everyone jumped on the band wagon. Myself, I have held very steady, I haven't lowered my prices, and in fact 70% of my competitors charge more than I do...

You want to debate, let's debate. However, what you do is throw examples of situations that can never be proven, let's take your plopping me in another country. If it was right now, I would be at a disadvantage but I would work day and night to figure out how to succeed in their culture and economic conditions. Now if I was born there, I wouldn't be me would I so that is moot. However, if I was born there with parents that constantly pushed me the same way my parents did me here, gave me the same vital work ethics, that knowledge and skills as well as dedication and motivation are fundamental to success, then I would definitely look for every ladder to climb, even if it meant leaving the country, I would.

However, let's say IT fell off because of a gross influx of immigrants and there was zero opportunity, and i lost 100% of my contacts that i have made in the last 20 years and lost all my other available skills and I ended up at McDees to flip burgers, I would look at how to get into management with the franchiser. I would work as hard as possible to get back what I lost financially.

Sorry off path, then general chit chat... Created a thread for you too...


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

invision said:


> You want to debate, let's debate. However, what you do is throw examples of situations that can never be proven . . .


No, what I do is I object to your blanket statements. Look back to my objection and note the consistent theme of my criticism in this thread.

"*The only one* holding a person down is the person."​
You're arguing a strawman. I never wrote that personal initiative is not important, I wrote that structural factors can be substantial impediments which prevent success.

That you don't comprehend the written words in my post and instead charge off arguing against something I didn't write simply baffles me. I stay on point and I give you further examples of structural impediments and you recite your resume to me.



> let's take your plopping me in another country. If it was right now, I would be at a disadvantage but I would work day and night to figure out how to succeed in their culture and economic conditions. Now if I was born there, I wouldn't be me would I so that is moot. However, if I was born there* with parents that constantly pushed me the same way my parents did me here, gave me the same vital work ethics, that knowledge and skills as well as dedication and motivation are fundamental to success*, then I would definitely look for every ladder to climb, even if it meant leaving the country, I would.


There are a lot of things to pick apart in the text above which run contrary to your assertion that "The only one holding a person down is the person." You're making the case that the influence your upbringing had on you was a crucial component to the success you enjoyed in later years. That contradicts your position that you alone are responsible for your own success. Your upbringing was a valuable contributor to your success, so if the experiences of your upbringing helped you in your success then what of those men and women who aspire to success via hard work who fail to achieve their dreams because they lacked the ingredient you identify as important to your own success? They matched you for intensity but they lacked what you were given by your parents in the way of upbringing. That invalidates your position that individuals alone are responsible for their own success. No, this isn't a riff on Obama's "You didn't build that" asinine argument, it's a challenge to your simplistic statements that nothing else has influence on a person's success but their own ambition and willingness to work hard.

What if you were a woman and your ambition was to be a Navy Seal? What if you were born a crack baby and your ambition is to be the next Einstein? What if you were born with cerebral palsy and your ambition was to be an opthalmic surgeon? There are plenty of factors outside of "The only one holding a person down is the person" which work to inhibit a person's path to success. I'm simply baffled by why this uncontroversial point escapes you and upsets you so.


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

I read through every post on this thread and that was truly work.

I would like to mention to the left leaning posters here, especially in regards to the "Warren Buffett is right" comments... he is a philanthropist, like Romney he donates vast sums of money to charity. Why is it that he donates those monies to privately run organizations and funds instead of voluntarily paying more money to the gov't? 

I think the answer is because as a business man he wants ROI, he expects his money to produce something and get to the intended recipient without funding a bureaucracy to support the money while only a very small portion trickles to the recipients. 

Case in point... look at the fraud and waste in FEMA during Katrina, those cash cards were a joke! now compare that to non profit run outreaches done by all kinds of churches and local citizens groups... 

If someone truly admired Buffett I think they'd put their money where their mouth is and pony up some dollars getting to people who they want to help because they identify with that cause, and because private organizations are a lot more transparent about the money that is spent in overhead vs what is delivered. 

Taken one step further, if Uncle Sam stopped taking so much of MY hard earned money from me for HIS unpaid debt and spending programs that I never got to opt out of, I'd be very willing to put money into donation coffers, but right now I'm just happy to be able to keep up, make ends meet and try to look out for me and mine as best I can. 

it would be an interesting constitutional amendment that said "if you vote for this law, you're financially obligated to support it, and anyone who does not vote for it, is not obligated to pay for it" 

obviously that plan is unworkable, but just the conversation might start waking people up to the cost of the emotional outbursts at the polling stations when it's time to vote. It would also eliminate the welfare entitlement programs and truly restore the sense of security that unemployment insurance was supposed to be.


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## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

Dakine said:


> I read through every post on this thread and that was truly work.
> 
> I would like to mention to the left leaning posters here, especially in regards to the "Warren Buffett is right" comments... he is a philanthropist, like Romney he donates vast sums of money to charity. Why is it that he donates those monies to privately run organizations and funds instead of voluntarily paying more money to the gov't?
> 
> ...


Actually buffet donated a large sum of his entire portfolio to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation... Their worldwide contributions can be found out, I am sure there is overhead, but I am positive it is far lower than Red Cross.

Imagine a world, were these billionaires and Multi-Multi millionaires did not donate to charities... I donate every year, no way anything compared to what they so, but their 1 donation equals a 1000 of me...

I do like your plan though, would love to see that in place...


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## Londoner (Aug 24, 2012)

In Britain they would get free public housing, welfare cheques, free heathcare, free dental etc. And once they are on it thats where they stay. Its not an ideal situation, half the world seems to be beating a path to our door. Many not wanting jobs, just welfare.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

For all the people who blame the wealthy for not shareing the wealth , I have one question relating to employment opertunitys.

How many people here have ever been given a job by a poor man ?

I always worked for rich men and wealthy corp's.

When you take away the wealth from the rich, who is going to employ you?


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## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

BillM said:


> For all the people who blame the wealthy for not shareing the wealth , I have one question relating to employment opertunitys.
> 
> How many people here have ever been given a job by a poor man ?
> 
> ...


Nicely put... But for those of us who do own our own businesses, there is a difference between wealthy, rich and well off, I consider myself well off, I have never had a years income equal to a million dollars. Yet, I am classified rich... While I know a guy that had the original patents on how ATM networks ran, he told me once, I don't get out of bed for less than $2,000 an hour. He charged Intuit, Inc. $45,000 for 2 hrs to moderate a BOD meeting. His annual income was around $2MM a year. That is rich. I know another guy who is CEO of an Asset Management company with over $120B under management. His bonus two years ago was $75MM... That is wealthy...


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

I'm one of the 25% of the 99%
I paid for it, it's MINE.if you don't pay in, you shouldn't take out.
Don't give a damn you have to live on macaroni and fried baloney.that's what churches are for.
don't give a damn you drive a hoopti car either.you're poor,I'm poor. NOBODY can help you,but you.
LIFE is NOT fair,nor will it ever be.some animals are more equal than others.life's a b1tch,it eventually kills you,get over it 99%. if you were clever, you could get around the road blocks,I'm living good on my whole 19$ a month in stamps divided into two payments.IF you were REAL clever you could be the next Bill Gates and your hippie buddies could all b1tch because you don't give it all away.LOL


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## Ravensoracle (Oct 4, 2010)

Invision and the other 1%'s (not meaning to call you out specifically but your resume keeps drawing my attention so you stick out in my poor memory.)

What about people that have disabilities that limit what they can do to excel. I'm not talking about just being fat& lazy, but serious things like a child born with downs or a man that worked hard all his life until he suffered traumatic brain damage? Are they still responsible for their success? Is your statement absolute or can their be caveats.


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## Startingout-Blair (Aug 28, 2012)

Ravensoracle said:


> Invision and the other 1%'s (not meaning to call you out specifically but your resume keeps drawing my attention so you stick out in my poor memory.)
> 
> What about people that have disabilities that limit what they can do to excel. I'm not talking about just being fat& lazy, but serious things like a child born with downs or a man that worked hard all his life until he suffered traumatic brain damage? Are they still responsible for their success? Is your statement absolute or can their be caveats.


Of course there are caveats! When I talk about living the original American Dream, I am speaking to the majority of healthy (physically and mentally) Americans. I am now disabled myself! Not because I am fat or lazy, but because of bad back surgery that left me partially paralyzed and in constant pain. Yet, I still try to find ways to get ahead. For instance, due to my disabilities, I know some may consider me to be a liability in a SHTF scenario. So, to make myself an asset, I learn as much as possible, gain as many potentially needed skills as I can, and hope to teach and use those skills when needed. Will it make me rich? No. Will it keep me alive? I hope so. If I hadn't strived to do as well as I could before becoming disabled, I would be totally screwed right now and unable to make ends meet. But, since I did strive to get ahead, I am comfortable financially. I have no issues with people that need social security utilizing it, if they NEED it! Those who game the system are taking from every hard working person out there that pays into the system.


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## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

Ravensoracle said:


> Invision and the other 1%'s (not meaning to call you out specifically but your resume keeps drawing my attention so you stick out in my poor memory.)
> 
> What about people that have disabilities that limit what they can do to excel. I'm not talking about just being fat& lazy, but serious things like a child born with downs or a man that worked hard all his life until he suffered traumatic brain damage? Are they still responsible for their success? Is your statement absolute or can their be caveats.


No offense taken Ravensoracle... I agree there are caveats. As I mentioned in an other post, I have a very dear friend who is slowly dying. He has had crones (sp?) disease all his adult life, he had a million dollar trust at one point, and now he has kidney failure, losing his house, no insurance, no job, and no family. He was the single person that kicked me in the ass to go into IT, so I feel I owe him a lot... Is his misfortune to blame on laziness - no...did he work when i knew him best? yes... can he get a job now? Not when he is on dialysis once a day. I know he made financial mistakes - staying in the market and not moving money around wisely, did he blow it on stupid things? No he lived a very modest lifestyle...another mistake was not going on Medicare until he was in dire straights, etc. do people like him deserve assistance, absolutely. Am i trying to help him? absolutely.

When I speak about its up to you to make it, I mean of course those who have the mental/physical capabilities to do so... Please don't get me wrong, I am a very charitable person and believe in being as charitable as possible. For example, the year I was head of one 501-c3, my organization's annual BBQ donated all revenue made to support two assistance dogs, the full cost of one dog for life is $18,000 - 5 of use put together the investments to pay for the entire BBQ - instead of having the BBQ pay back the operation fund of the 501-c3... By doing that we raised enough money for 2 dogs. Every person evolved was at the program where the dogs went to a family in need - both went to kids with special needs, there wasn't a dry eye in the place. The 501-c3 just had its 65 BBQ last weekend and celebrated its 168th year serving the Roswell, Ga. Community. They bought 2 scopes used by firefighters to see through doors and walls with the proceeds this year and gave them to the local fire department.

What pisses me off is seeing a friend, who was making a decent living as a client service manager at an asset management firm, jump ship to make $15,000 more a year, then she was axed (1st in 1st out) when the hedge fund firm she went to (same position) got into financial trouble- she has 2 BS, and 1 Masters. She has decided since she can't find anything in her "new salary" range, she isn't going to look and is staying on the teet of the government for the full 99 weeks. Now she is going to nursing school on my dime for another degree... Is this right? There are jobs available to her at the lower range, including the previous firm - I know I talked to the COO of that firm about it. They would love to have her back, would offer her same job at her old salary if she asked....she won't.

Blair for example, led a very productive life prior to surgeries, which left him partially paralyzed - and I am sure is in a lot of unmanageable pain... I would have him on my team any day...


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## Startingout-Blair (Aug 28, 2012)

Thank you Invision! And I would do my utmost to be an asset for the team! Being paralyzed doesn't mean I can't pull a trigger, pull guard duty, help with the cooking, etc. It may be a lot harder for me post-SHTF without pain meds, but I would get over it. Although I may be in a foul mood for a while...lol. Also, as I am honing my fermentation and distillation knowledge and skills (in compliance with all laws), I will be able to add trade, medical, and fuel items to the group's supplies (they will also help with morale)


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## Ravensoracle (Oct 4, 2010)

I don't like getting into personal details on the net but the reason I ask is that I am disabled. Did I work my ass off before that happened.? Yes.did it help when I went down and my wife was trying to juggle a work schedule, the kids,and my failing health? Not so much. 

I have seen the corruption of these e gov't systems first hand. From watching a drug dealer making 6 figures having his wife collect every program out there. They drove Lexus's but had a pos Honda just for the trips to get the handouts. I have had the wife of one of the most successful construction companies in the city I was in at the time tell me she had a many homes and she told the gov't she was seperated just so she got benefits. Plus the whole spectrum of generational families that don't care to work.

The system is there for a reason. But I think the original intention has been lost to the beuracracy and corruption.

I'd agree with your statement Invision only amending it slightly. You are the Core reason for your success.


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## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

Ravensoracle said:


> I don't like getting into personal details on the net but the reason I ask is that I am disabled. Did I work my ass off before that happened.? Yes.did it help when I went down and my wife was trying to juggle a work schedule, the kids,and my failing health? Not so much.
> 
> I have seen the corruption of these e gov't systems first hand. From watching a drug dealer making 6 figures having his wife collect every program out there. They drove Lexus's but had a pos Honda just for the trips to get the handouts. I have had the wife of one of the most successful construction companies in the city I was in at the time tell me she had a many homes and she told the gov't she was seperated just so she got benefits. Plus the whole spectrum of generational families that don't care to work.
> 
> ...


That is very cool statement, thanks... And I totally agree with you about those cheating the system, they need pointed out and removed from it and from the US, strip their citizenship...


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## RoadRash (Sep 29, 2010)

I basically started life as a ditch digger switched alot of jobs over the last 27 years, worked my way up the ladder so to say never been on social assistance, could of used it a couple of times but never was, I have thrown out my back have tennis elbow two shot knees from installing carpet, So I got up dusted off my pants and found another job. 
The problem with todays generation is we as parents have given them everything and they demand more instead of working for it, look at the school system or little leauge everyone makes it no more try outs or failing a grade why do they need to try they have been taught we are all equal........ Bull poop 
Reality is now hitting them and they dont understand that HARD WORK + SMARTS + DETERMINATION+ a Bit of LUCK + SKILL + TAKING A CHANCE will get you alot farther 
I have recently taken a weekend position that pays more with better benifits but less time with family is it worth it we have a better standard of life (BOL now) time will tell!! 
So to the 99% get up off ur A$$ take the crappy low paying jobs move out of ur parents houses or get off of welfare start seeing whats its like to have to work for a living , I have hated bosses in the past and wanted to quit, I was taught a MAN works and provides for his family, guess generation after generation on welfare cant say that... If we take the people on welfare and have em clean the hotel rooms, pick tobbaco and veggies, landscapping and renovations, guess what there goes the need for illegal immagrants.....


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