# From prepper to hoarder



## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

I am currently remodeling my man cave which serves as my armory, ammo storage, work room, safe space, gunsmithing area, overflow storage room, child free zone and tactical haven. The room is pretty good sized and is right next door to my actual storage room. Which is pretty much all dehydrated food buckets, water (bottles and rain water drums), medical supplies, alcohol bottles, duct tape, tarps, lanterns, zip ties, and other preps. The storage room is pretty well organized and is almost full as it is going to get and still allow access to the room. Most of the items in that room have very long shelf lives, so all it needs is the occasional inspection and some time with a shop vac. The man cave however is where my storage overflow goes, as well as other gear. It's that place where I shove everything and now as I prepare to remodel it, I am sorting through everything that is in there. What a job that has become. I am already a couple days behind my project timeline. 

This morning I decided it was time to cut back and prioritize. I am obviously not getting rid of guns or ammo (other than shooting it) but I discovered that I have a total of 12 back packs. 12!? There are only 9 people in this house and almost half of them could not begin to bear the weight of a pack. Some are Blackhawk, some are LAPG, some are Maxpedition. Over half are packed full. A few are brand new and were obviously purchased on clearance. I also found two boxes of work gloves, that's 48 brand new Uline heavy utility work gloves. 48!? I also seem to have more gun parts than the average gunsmith. I pulled out a box with 4 polymer 870 stocks and forends as well as 4 polymer Mossberg 590 A1 stocks and forends. I am sure they were free from the dept armorer, but why did I take 4 sets of each? What was I planning to do with them? Some time back I found the Lifegear 4-1 glowsticks and thought they would make a great addition to my preps, so I bought 6 cases of them. 6 cases! 2 cases of red, 2 of blue, 2 of green. I also apparently own anywhere from 1-4 holsters for every handgun I own and about 50 holsters for handguns I DO NOT OWN (and some I never have). I could go one with several more examples but I will digress.

Apparently there is a thin line between prepping and hoarding. A line I need to pull myself back from, well, maybe a little bit back from. The good news is I already called "my guy" who sells such items at flea markets and gun shows. I have sent him some pics and descriptions and he is going to make me an offer on my excess. Knowing him it will be a 60/40 cash to "store credit" offer. Which works for me as he sells guns and ammo too.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

I trade or sell my excess stuff all the time but I generally do it to fund other purchases I feel I need so my stuff does not decrease in a meaningful way . You are always welcome to send some of your stuff my way if you feel the need. We have a classified section here dont we? Lets make a deal!


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

*Tell me about it!!! Geeeez!!!*

Oh crapola on a stick! Whaddya have to go and bring *that* up for??? I don't have an armory, but I do have several *thousand rounds* tucked away for the BDA and S & W, not to mention a *couple cases* of co2 cartridges, bb's & pellets/darts for the pellet guns, plus the .380-1911 which is still in the box, and I just ordered more ammo (the HP's and JHP's). Then there are the *cases upon cases* of MRE's, several first-aid kits, 6 large duffel bags, 6 backpacks, God knows how many space blankets and miles of para-cord, 4 computers, three external HDD's, half a dozen flash memory sticks, two boxes of Jeppesen manuals and maintenance manuals for the Jet Ranger, compasses, GPS units, flashlights, and God knows what else I have stashed around here. And this isn't even my BOL!! (Can't have *too much* "stuff" at the *BOL, though!!*)

And that's not even counting all the stuff in the tornado shelter. Jesus! But at the same time, I have only *two* knives (the Buck and the filleting knife), *one* machete (which has been in the closet ever since the last "ex" bought it) and *two* hatchets......go figure!

Maybe it's time to do a complete inventory and see if I can cut down on some of this "stuff," and maybe add some things in short supply, like knives, and machetes. You would have to go and bring this up and get me to thinking about what I have around here! Rats! :wave:


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Last month I finished my annual firearms, magazine, and ammo inventory. The wife had to increase the rider on our homeowner's insurance and increase my NRA ArmsCare coverage again. I shoot a lot but I always end up ordering about 25-50% more ammo each year than I will ever go through. That surplus has built up quite nicely over the last 15+ years. The number of guns, magazines, weapon lights, optics, etc. I own is just part of my gun-based obsessive compulsive disorder. A mental disease I have no plans on seeking help for any time soon. Besides, someday I could have dozens of grandkids and definitely want each of them to inherit a small arsenal.


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## Country Living (Dec 15, 2009)

You just need a bigger man cave.....


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

Yes, it begins to feel like hoarding, and there are people who would be more than willing to call it that. 

I know there are limitations about selling here, but I wonder if you could put together a sales list and prices for us? Surely someone wants or needs a holster.


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## DrPrepper (Apr 17, 2016)

Sentry,
I could so easily do the same thing as you, but to control my "acquisitions", I set up an excel spread sheet with a page for each different area (canned food, water, medical, etc.). Each sheet lists the items I think I should have, how many I think I need, what I actually have, and then a final column for what I need. (Being excel, I have it set up to auto-calculate what I need.) That way, I know at a glance what I have, and what I still need to get. Once a month, I double-check food inventory, as we use that and rotate supplies. Some stuff is packed in totes, so "inventory" just means making sure the tape holding it closed is still intact.

Using this kind of spread sheet lets me fill in gaps and add to my preps on a routine basis, as I use the sheets to create my grocery list each week.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

weedygarden said:


> I know there are limitations about selling here, but I wonder if you could put together a sales list and prices for us? Surely someone wants or needs a holster.


I appreciate the offer and I am sure I could sell lots of stuff here, but I use a couple different intermediary's for a reason. And that reason is anonymity and OPSEC. I have learned some lessons about OPSEC the hard way (personal experience) and some the easy way (from other people's experience), but either way those lessons have become engrained in how I live. Besides "my guy" comes up with some pretty interesting and awesome stuff to trade for. He emailed me earlier to say he has a large stash of combat tourniquets and chest seals, as well Wolf performance ammo in sealed tins.


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Space limitations does help from becoming a hoarder. Firearms and accessories (current and future purchases) are listed in excel. Food, water, and household items are kept on Wonderful Wife"s paper notebook list (does not use spreadsheet, know how just old fashioned). Factor in a fixed income and overstocking in not a problem for us. 

Once the "Tin Hat House" is built, then hoarding is going to be a problem. I know my son and he will keep stocking until the rafters start to rise. His "Man Cave / Security Control Room" will look like a NASA Launch command center. His current computer center utilizes 3 monitors and that is without any security systems connected. 

Storage space design and space utilization is going to require maximum thought to avoid hoarding clutter vs. logical prep. My son will look like a neighborhood Walmart, if not kept focused. Loves his guns, ammo, wood working, metal work, gun Smithing (skill to be acquired), and computers, can assemble his own systems. Fun times ahead.


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## ContinualHarvest (Feb 19, 2012)

We're saving up to buy a house. After we find a suitable place, we've already talked about building a hardened room to store our emergency supplies. A good amount of my preps went into active use after the layoff in 2012. We haven't replenished much of the food stores and consumables due to the planned move. We're thinking late August. Then I have the green light from the wife to build a nice pantry and break out the pressure canner until my heart's content.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

tmttactical said:


> Space limitations does help from becoming a hoarder. Firearms and accessories (current and future purchases) are listed in excel. Food, water, and household items are kept on Wonderful Wife"s paper notebook list (does not use spreadsheet, know how just old fashioned). Factor in a fixed income and overstocking in not a problem for us. Once the "Tin Hat House" is built, then hoarding is going to be a problem. I know my son and he will keep stocking until the rafters start to rise. His "Man Cave / Security Control Room" will look like a NASA Launch command center. His current computer center utilizes 3 monitors and that is without any security systems connected. Storage space design and space utilization is going to require maximum thought to avoid hoarding clutter vs. logical prep. My son will look like a neighborhood Walmart, if not kept focused. Loves his guns, ammo, wood working, metal work, gun Smithing (skill to be acquired), and computers, can assemble his own systems. Fun times ahead.


THH Plan A. Excavate a gigantic maze with at least two dozen rooms, stub in all plumbing and electrical conduit, put up the forms, pour the floors, walls, create your entrance/exit ramps (extra wide)....roof it with steel beams and sheet metal, then cover with dirt (upon which grass will grow and the sheep will get fat), and yo'll have *plenty of room* for whatever you wish to do. This is, of course an oversimplification, but I'm sure you get the idea!


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Pessimistic2 said:


> THH Plan A. Excavate a gigantic maze with at least two dozen rooms, stub in all plumbing and electrical conduit, put up the forms, pour the floors, walls, create your entrance/exit ramps (extra wide)....roof it with steel beams and sheet metal, then cover with dirt (upon which grass will grow and the sheep will get fat), and yo'll have *plenty of room* for whatever you wish to do. This is, of course an oversimplification, but I'm sure you get the idea!


What I really need is the software to drag and drop to create a drawing , pictures like the one in your photo. 1) Has to be drag an drop simple. 2) Has to be simple scale-able (represent true dimensions). 3) Has to be cheap - not CAD costs.

So any suggestions? Oh Great ans Powerful Wizard! :groupwave: :comptoss:


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

tmttactical said:


> What I really need is the software to drag and drop to create a drawing , pictures like the one in your photo. 1) Has to be drag an drop simple. 2) Has to be simple scale-able (represent true dimensions). 3) Has to be cheap - not CAD costs. So any suggestions? Oh Great ans Powerful Wizard! :groupwave: :comptoss:


Say no more....here's the one I like:
https://www.smartdraw.com/floor-pla...tm?id=365485&gclid=CJ_Es5fmk9QCFYc2gQod_NEOEQ

But there are others....have at it!
http://www.sketchup.com

http://www.vagueware.com/top-10-architectural-design-software-for-budding-architects/

https://www.chiefarchitect.com/architects-builders-remodelers/

https://myarchicad.com/about.aspx

That oughtta give you enough to choose from. If ya need more, just holler. Begging and groveling would be good, too! Us Hamsters have big egos!! :lalala:


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## TriggerWarning (May 22, 2017)

I "hoard" a lot of medical supplies and medicinal herbs. As well as a lot of empty tins, jars, and vials to eventually hoard more supplies in. Part of this is a firm belief that most people lack adequate biology knowledge and medical skills, but mostly I just have a fascination (bordering on fetish) with biochemistry and physiology.  My first aid/field surgery kit feels like my most prized weapon.

Since room in our trailer is pretty limited, I can only stockpile what medical supplies fit in two small metal file cabinets. But that is only what we "officially" consider medical supplies. Many of the less-potent medicinal herbs can also be found in our spice cabinet, while certain more-potent herbs are used recreationally and can be found....elsewhere. I also have piles of hypoallergenic cotton gauze, oodles of suture thread I designed myself, and more needles than I could ever count because I need enough to lose everywhere. Sure find a lot stuck in my feet....

Syringes and hypodermic needles were the most difficult to acquire. At least until I gave up on plastic syringes specifically designed for medical purposes, because I don't like petrochemical thermoplastics anyway. And I specify what plastics I don't like because beeswax is technically a naturally-occurring thermoplastic. If the glass syringes I bought didn't have a tight seal, I'd use beeswax to stop leaks. But they do have a good seal. Until you drop them and the glass breaks, of course.

For the hypodermic needles, I bought hundreds of thin sharp hollow piercing needles. And although I hope to never need them, I have several syringes pre-fit with those needles, and dozens of medicine vials ready to be injected. Most have been self-tested by me to insure some level of safety and efficacy. Aside from the much safer herbal preparations advocated these days, I have a lot of potent tinctures my shaman ancestors would be proud of. Like belladonna for nerve gas poisoning.

There are a lot of naturally-occurring chemicals, such as atropine and THC, that I discriminate against based on purity. God mixes certain phytochemicals together in certain plants in a certain ratio for a certain damn reason.  He wrote the recipes, I just read the cookbook. Belladonna in bulk herb form can still kill you, but there will be less adverse effects (if grown and harvested properly) than an alcohol tincture, while "pure" atropine (as a sulphate in who knows what preservatives) is something we haven't evolved to consume. I'm not one of those "all chemicals are bad" types, but I might seem like it because I have to simplify my beliefs for simple people. 

I also have several surgical kits that I mix-and-match instruments from. Some have scalpels I like better, while others have more preferable forceps. but they're all basically backup kits. Again, I hope I'll never need to practice my surgical skills. Oh who am I kidding....? I'd love to finally use all these tools, I just don't want anyone to die, or arrest me for practicing medicine without a license.  That's why everything is totally just weird home decor.

Aside from the metal medicine cabinets and the kit I wear on my left thigh, I also shove medical supplies....anywhere else I can. Beneath my seat in the truck, there is a kit specializing in trauma and poisonings, just like my boyfriend/husband has weapons and ammo beneath the driver's seat. Or up his ass, around the corner, wherever else he can cram a knife, bow, or gun. Since the day I first met that boy in high school, he had more weapons than socks and underwear. But his "hoarding" is an entirely different story.

By the end of this year, I plan to distribute personal first-aid kits to all my loved ones. Not necessarily to pawn off my surplus supplies, but simply to redistribute some of the weight, and hopefully some of the skills to protect and provide for their own health and safety. I even wrote first-aid flashcards for my helplessly screwed up family. Obviously, the small children get more limited medical kits with only bandages and very basic kid-friendly medicines. And no one else but me gets any "advanced" supplies, like scalpels or syringes, unless they can prove they have the skills to use those things properly. All in black leather bags with cute little snake symbols on the front.


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

Pessimistic2 said:


> THH Plan A. Excavate a gigantic maze with at least two dozen rooms, stub in all plumbing and electrical conduit, put up the forms, pour the floors, walls, create your entrance/exit ramps (extra wide)....roof it with steel beams and sheet metal, then cover with dirt (upon which grass will grow and the sheep will get fat), and yo'll have *plenty of room* for whatever you wish to do. This is, of course an oversimplification, but I'm sure you get the idea!


Also don't forget to do all of this yourself so no-one else knows it is there. Oh yeah... do it in the dead of night a bit at a time or all in one night so the neighbors dont know.

It is easy to move across the line from collector of needed items to the hoarder category. When I used to buy military surplus my gal whisked away and confiscated all medical equipment and threw it into pelican cases. I'm not sure if that is hoarding or not though. Can you have too much medical?


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## TriggerWarning (May 22, 2017)

LastOutlaw said:


> Also don't forget to do all of this yourself so no-one else knows it is there. Oh yeah... do it in the dead of night a bit at a time or all in one night so the neighbors dont know.
> 
> It is easy to move across the line from collector of needed items to the hoarder category. When I used to buy military surplus my gal whisked away and confiscated all medical equipment and threw it into pelican cases. I'm not sure if that is hoarding or not though. Can you have too much medical?


I suppose, yes. One would hope that shelter, water, and food would be our most basic needs before any emergency medical treatment. Lack of those could lead to dis-ease in an otherwise healthy person. Frostbite, kidney failure, scurvy....Prevention is usually better than cure. Other people might carry a whole tent, a sleeping bag, a few MREs, up to a few gallons of water, while I carry a couple tarps, a blanket, a mini-distiller, and....more surplus medical supplies to refill the first-aid kits. Some might balk at my lack of more important essentials, like super glue or duct tape. 

Most other people are present-moment cerebral thinkers. They want things now and need things now, which isn't a bad thing at all in sudden situations. Duct tape is for most people. I have tape as well, but I made it myself. Cotton strips, beeswax, and pine resin. I also stockpile the ingredients to make more, and carry tins in my backpack. Basic multi-purpose supplies serve me better than specialized items. Unless I made the item myself, of course.

I'm kinda like Eugene on The Walking Dead: paralyzed by fear in the moment of immediate danger, but capable of anything if I have some quiet time in a safe space. Not that I can't take care of myself if I have to. But if someone doesn't invest time and effort in learning to make absolutely everything from scratch, who will? The factories and laboratories won't be around forever. Raw honey, beeswax, cocoa butter, shea butter, acacia gum, pine resin, charcoal powder, wood ash, bentonite clay, sea salt, sea sponges....Haha yeah, I hoard weird things. There's a lot of stuff I can do with those things though.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

TriggerWarning said:


> I'm kinda like Eugene on The Walking Dead: paralyzed by fear in the moment of immediate danger, but capable of anything if I have some quiet time in a safe space.


By that logic I am 1/2 Shane and 1/2 the Governor (when he had two eyes).


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## oldasrocks (Jun 30, 2012)

Hoarding? I thought everyone had several50 gallon barrels of toilet paper on hand to mention one item.


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## cqp33 (Apr 2, 2012)

Hoarding....that's why I have a 68' x 30' basement with 9' ceilings and my wife's room in the basement is 13' x 13' the rest is 'man cave'! 

My basement is made of 12" blocks filled with concrete and 3/4" rebar.

One12'x12' room has 8" block walls/1/2" AR plate/8" block, all block is concrete/rebar filled. Ceiling in that room is 3/4" boiler plate lag bolted to the floor joists. Door is...we will call it hefty. That's my armory room/secure storage/safe room.


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## oldasrocks (Jun 30, 2012)

Pessimistic2 said:


> THH Plan A. Excavate a gigantic maze with at least two dozen rooms, stub in all plumbing and electrical conduit, put up the forms, pour the floors, walls, create your entrance/exit ramps (extra wide)....roof it with steel beams and sheet metal, then cover with dirt (upon which grass will grow and the sheep will get fat), and yo'll have *plenty of room* for whatever you wish to do. This is, of course an oversimplification, but I'm sure you get the idea!


Steel roof???? I'm insist on poured concrete with fiber in it.


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

oldasrocks said:


> Steel roof???? I'm insist on poured concrete with fiber in it.


Okay, I will bite, what about "Poured concrete with fiber". Please educate the none educated. What is the advantage of the concrete vs. Steel roof? cost vs. life span vs. insulation (assuming insulated steel roof panel) vs. availability vs.?


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

Pessimistic2 said:


> THH Plan A. Excavate a gigantic maze with at least two dozen rooms, stub in all plumbing and electrical conduit, put up the forms, pour the floors, walls, create your entrance/exit ramps (extra wide)....roof it with steel beams and sheet metal, then cover with dirt (upon which grass will grow and the sheep will get fat), and yo'll have *plenty of room* for whatever you wish to do. This is, of course an oversimplification, but I'm sure you get the idea!


Uncle Pess said he might consider bankrolling this for all of us. Right Uncle Pess.:thumbup:


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

tmttactical said:


> Okay, I will bite, what about "Poured concrete with fiber". Please educate the none educated. What is the advantage of the concrete vs. Steel roof? cost vs. life span vs. insulation (assuming insulated steel roof panel) vs. availability vs.?


Fiber may, or may not, work out well....

https://alleghenydesign.com/fiber-reinforcing-in-concrete-slabs/

https://www.concretenetwork.com/concrete/slabs/fibers.htm

Steel roof.....my consideration was primarily "weight."

https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-...g-with-or-having-a-concrete-roof-on-your-home


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Flight1630 said:


> Uncle Pess said he might consider bankrolling this for all of us. Right Uncle Pess.:thumbup:


Uncle Pess my azz!! And *NO* I'm not bankrolling anything! You want a million dollar BOL, get busy!

You want a "large budget" to work with, there are numerous ways to make some pretty high incomes, and a couple of the "easiest" are exactly what I did for over 40 years.....flipping property. Tax lien sales, and buying up foreclosures. Told ya, I am a lazy SOB!!!

Working with foreclosures does require a bit of a bankroll to "begin with," say in the neighborhood of $50,000 and up. (If you have good credit, you *can* get away with less "up front, out of *your* pocket," but it requires some fast turnover, or *you're stuck* with paying off the loan.)

Tax lien sales, on the other hand, don't require a whole lot of "up front cash." The trick here is to get there *"first!"* You have to have a good contact in the county tax office, get the lists of upcoming tax sale properties, *research them,* so you're not buying ghetto dumps, but decent property that you can work with. Once you "buy it," you can rent/lease it, and use it to produce an income. I have acquired half-million dollar chunks of property (land, homes, defunct business buildings) for under $10,000 and held them the required three years, gained the clear title, and immediately sold them for $100,000 - $250,000 on a "quick sale basis." Yes, you DO have to pay the annual property taxes during those three years...and on a half million dollar piece of property that can run several thousand dollars (which is exactly why you rent/lease the place out, and let it "pay for itself"). It DOES take a while to "snowball" this so you build your way up to nailing down 10-12 properties at a time (same with foreclosure property), but the "profits" are HUGE, and you can sell for MUCH LESS (and STILL make a HUGE profit) than the "going market rate" for similar property.

Example: You snag a $350,000 home with 3 acres of land, tax sale price $8,500. Say your property taxes for the three year period are going to run you another $8,500...OK, you're going to have a minimum of $17,000 tied up in it. Call it $21,000 to give yourself a cushion, pay for any necessary repairs, mow the grass, etc., now divide that by three years (holding period until you gain clear title), and it's $7,000 annually. Divide that by 12, and you have a monthly "requirement" of $583. OK, check your local area rental market and see what $350,000 homes are renting/leasing for. (Hint, it's gonna be a helluva lot more than $583!) You think you're gonna have a problem renting or leasing it out for, oh, say $750 a month (which is likely $300-$500 *LOWER* than the local market)?? You'll have it rented/leased the same day you list the damn thing! 

*Note: Depending on the state you live in, property tax rates are extremely variable: Alabama, for example is .43%....but at the other end is New Jersey at 2.38%. Generally, property doesn't go up for tax lien sale until it's three years behind (buying tax certificates after ONE year's failure to pay taxes is a whole different ballgame, and I won't get into that). That $350,000 home/lot in ALABAMA after three years of not paying taxes is gonna be up for around $4500-$4600. That SAME property in New Jersey will go for around $25,000. Check your state's rate.*

But am I "bankrolling" anyone? Nope. You want to make big money, get busy and do your homework, and then get busy and DO IT. By the way, there are numerous OTHER ways to generate high incomes with comparatively small investments, and build up to just about whatever "level" you wish...all it takes is ambition, research, and getting off your butt to DO IT. I just used the property thing as an example because that's what I am most familiar with, and I KNOW it "works," because I did it for over 40 years.


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

Pessimistic2 I didn't mean anything by it I'm sorry if I offended you. It won't ever happen again.


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## RedBeard (May 8, 2017)

Concrete with or with out fiber has a shelf life. Steel however not left to rust will last forever.


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## RedBeard (May 8, 2017)

Although you could coat the crete with line x and make it tuff as nails. ....


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Flight1630 said:


> Pessimistic2 I didn't mean anything by it I'm sorry if I offended you. It won't ever happen again.


No offense taken.....pretty hard to offend me!! I'm just a firm believer that if ya want something, it's up to "you" to go after it!! I am probably one of the laziest SOB's you'll ever run across......if there's an "easy way" to do something, I'll find it! "Work" is a four letter word that I equate with another four letter word that is unmentionable here!!  :2thumb::beercheer:


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## SewingMachine (Mar 26, 2017)

Back to the original post...

I am exactly the opposite. I purchased a Ruger SR9E, and sold my extremely well used SR9. I picked up a CompTac Mtac, and once I am done fussing with it (next few days) I will throw away my uncle mikes IWB holster.

I do have a few repeat things for the sake of redundancy, but in general I have one of everything, and try to take good care of it. I sharpen my knives before they need it, I hand sew rips in my ONE fall down jacket.

I'm looking at an AR. I will get one, plain Jane carbine, no optics.

I think I just lived out of the trunk of my car traveling for work for too long. Now I see things I want, but I immediately imagine packing it in my backpack, or loading it in my Explorer, and I almost always pass.

Even when I had a house, I literally lived in one room, which contained 3 boxes of books and a laundry basket sitting beside a couch, a coffee table, and a garage sale floor lamp. That was it. I have a painting that has followed me a few years....

Not really my place to offer advice, but. Get rid of that stuff. Just get rid of it however you have to. If it isn't going to hurt you financially, throw it out in the trash. All those "things" will take hold of you, and become valuable out of proportion to their actual worth.


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## RedBeard (May 8, 2017)

Ya i dont buy that! I have five good sized animal house's the only thing i bought was an 89 dollar pail of screws. Everything else was "worthless" trash to others. I build all sorts of things and fix all sorts of things with stuff people just toss...


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## oldasrocks (Jun 30, 2012)

tmttactical said:


> Okay, I will bite, what about "Poured concrete with fiber". Please educate the none educated. What is the advantage of the concrete vs. Steel roof? cost vs. life span vs. insulation (assuming insulated steel roof panel) vs. availability vs.?


You can have fiberglass fibers added into the concrete. It adds a lot of strength and makes cracking less likely. Steel will rot out in a few short years and probably leak in the meantime. Soil is normally acidic and will eat the steel.

If poured properly you will use stop leak rubber in the floor and also in the wall tops. "stop leak" is a rubber fiber, mat that you sink halfway down into the floor and the walls pour over the top half This eliminates the cold seal leaks you would normally have between joints.

I have a cellar 8 ft X 20ft with a poured roof. Never has leaked. 3 ft of dirt on top.


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## oldasrocks (Jun 30, 2012)

RedBeard said:


> Concrete with or with out fiber has a shelf life. Steel however not left to rust will last forever.


We ran across a shelter 40 ft deep on an old farmstead. Traced it back and found it was hand dug and hand mixed and poured in the 30's. I'd say shelf life on the concrete is plenty long. It was an amazing cellar, about 30 ft across with a domed ceiling.

Mine has been in 17 years. Steel fence post rot off in about 10 years here with the acid soil. I can't even imagine how thick of steel you would need to pile 3 ft of dirt on top of it. I have a tornado shelter built out of an old gas tank that has 5/16 plate, round tank, 6,000 gallon, 10 ft diameter and 20 ft long. I buried it about 12 years ago. It was heavily tarred. It is showing signs of decay or weak spots. It is "buried" mostly above ground level and covered as a hill so I know drainage is good.


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## SewingMachine (Mar 26, 2017)

RedBeard said:


> Ya i dont buy that! I have five good sized animal house's the only thing i bought was an 89 dollar pail of screws. Everything else was "worthless" trash to others. I build all sorts of things and fix all sorts of things with stuff people just toss...


But I'm mobile. Generally. For the vast majority of my life, I wouldn't be able to keep that pail of screws, let alone other repurposed building materials.. Couldn't take it on an airline. Wouldn't make sense to keep it in the car.

And it seemed like Sentry was complaining about the clutter. I was just saying, don't like clutter...declutter.

When I start working on the Airstream (that I will buy someday I swear) I will WISH I had the means to set aside building materials instead of spending time looking around on craigslist for the cheapest exact thing I need.


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## RedBeard (May 8, 2017)

oldasrocks said:


> We ran across a shelter 40 ft deep on an old farmstead. Traced it back and found it was hand dug and hand mixed and poured in the 30's. I'd say shelf life on the concrete is plenty long. It was an amazing cellar, about 30 ft across with a domed ceiling.
> 
> Mine has been in 17 years. Steel fence post rot off in about 10 years here with the acid soil. I can't even imagine how thick of steel you would need to pile 3 ft of dirt on top of it. I have a tornado shelter built out of an old gas tank that has 5/16 plate, round tank, 6,000 gallon, 10 ft diameter and 20 ft long. I buried it about 12 years ago. It was heavily tarred. It is showing signs of decay or weak spots. It is "buried" mostly above ground level and covered as a hill so I know drainage is good.


I will double check with my boss (concrete guy for 35 years) but concrete spends the first 50 years curing and the next 50 breaking down. I think it's a hundred years is it's shelf life. Also steel that is rinho lined can last forever. Steel is way stronger than concrete hence why they add it to concrete to strengthen it. It would take less steel than it does concrete. Im not saying steel is better for a bunker application im just telling the facts.

This is a neat table of building material life expectancy ; http://inspectionprosla.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Life_Expectancy_Table.pdf


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## RedBeard (May 8, 2017)

SewingMachine said:


> But I'm mobile. Generally. For the vast majority of my life, I wouldn't be able to keep that pail of screws, let alone other repurposed building materials.. Couldn't take it on an airline. Wouldn't make sense to keep it in the car.
> 
> And it seemed like Sentry was complaining about the clutter. I was just saying, don't like clutter...declutter.
> 
> When I start working on the Airstream (that I will buy someday I swear) I will WISH I had the means to set aside building materials instead of spending time looking around on craigslist for the cheapest exact thing I need.


No i hear ya. Just saying some make use of the clutter. Just a heads up, i used to repair campers and air streams are very nice but are an absolute nightmare to repair.


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## SewingMachine (Mar 26, 2017)

RedBeard said:


> No i hear ya. Just saying some make use of the clutter. Just a heads up, i used to repair campers and air streams are very nice but are an absolute nightmare to repair.


In that case, I may take the liberty of asking a few questions when the time comes, assuming we are both still here.

Lived in Dover for a while, working on a new power plant. I was in the converted bank building over looking the square, I had the second floor corner apartment! Loved that waterfall (old dam) by the converted mill. I like New Hampshire, and one of the operators had his pilots license and we would rent a Piper and fly around up in Maine. Super nice!


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## oldasrocks (Jun 30, 2012)

RedBeard said:


> I will double check with my boss (concrete guy for 35 years) but concrete spends the first 50 years curing and the next 50 breaking down. I think it's a hundred years is it's shelf life. Also steel that is rinho lined can last forever. Steel is way stronger than concrete hence why they add it to concrete to strengthen it. It would take less steel than it does concrete. Im not saying steel is better for a bunker application im just telling the facts.
> 
> This is a neat table of building material life expectancy ; http://inspectionprosla.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Life_Expectancy_Table.pdf


"rinho lined"? educate me. I agree steel is stronger in certain application but how would you seal the joints so they would not leak? Any silicone, liner or cover would have a short lifespan- weakest link so to speak.

I have worked with steel for a long time and have even designed and built a bridge. I have one patent in my name for steel construction/design. I would still stay with concrete for a bunker.


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## SewingMachine (Mar 26, 2017)

Rhino lining is a truck bed lining. It is a polyurethane. So basically saying a poly coated steel, and better sealing from the spray application. I guess you would start looking at the breakdown time of the poly, which minus exposure to ultraviolet light would be a long, long time.


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## readytogo (Apr 6, 2013)

So why so much junk? How much is too much America? Are we expecting a war or a doomsday any time soon ,because even then 40 guns with different ammo configurations probably collecting humidity are simply a logistic nightmare in my point of view . What about spare parts ,lots of ammo no parts . Another logistic nightmare ,many flashlights many different lightbulds and batteries, outdated batteries too ,even fancy rechargeable ones when storing them for more than 1 year you need to charge them at least once a year to prevent leakage and deterioration in performance due to self-discharging, big pain ,why? .Dry food ,wet food ,water that never gets rotated , expired iodine tables ,hoarding is a big mess and wasted money ,if many things are not stored in the proper environment, they will turn to dust.
Just to many things to worried about in a already complicated world .Just have a garage sale or take it to church and give it away.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

RTG....."they will turn to dust."

RTG, if *YOU* don't get the heck put of Miami, and the SHTF, *YOU* are going to *"turn to dust!"* Miami is bad enough NOW, just think what it will be like if the SHTF!!


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## terri9630 (Jun 2, 2016)

readytogo said:


> So why so much junk? How much is too much America? Are we expecting a war or a doomsday any time soon ,because even then 40 guns with different ammo configurations probably collecting humidity are simply a logistic nightmare in my point of view . What about spare parts ,lots of ammo no parts . Another logistic nightmare ,many flashlights many different lightbulds and batteries, outdated batteries too ,even fancy rechargeable ones when storing them for more than 1 year you need to charge them at least once a year to prevent leakage and deterioration in performance due to self-discharging, big pain ,why? .Dry food ,wet food ,water that never gets rotated , expired iodine tables ,hoarding is a big mess and wasted money ,if many things are not stored in the proper environment, they will turn to dust.
> Just to many things to worried about in a already complicated world .Just have a garage sale or take it to church and give it away.


RTG, I just have to ask. Why are you on a prepping forum if you don't believe in prepping?


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

I couldn't agree more. Having enough food to feed three dozen people or more for over year is wasteful. Having enough medical supplies to see a good sized group through the initial 24+ months of SHTF is a waste of space. Having enough armaments to keep everything and everyone safe & secure is a logistical nightmare. And don't get me started on all these redundant fire starters, blades, tools, water purification systems, seeds, light sources, etc. Yep, better load it all up and take it to a church. Then my family can just hug each other until we die if things go hell in a handbasket, presuming there is no space in those luxurious FEMA camps.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Sentry18 said:


> Then my family can just hug each other until we die if things go hell in a handbasket, *presuming there is no space in those luxurious FEMA camps.*


Ummmm, you mean the ones loaded with formaldehyde?? They're going cheap....pennies on the dollar!! Better get one while they last! (Well, before the mold, formaldehyde, mildew and propane leaks get to it, anyway!) 

http://dailycaller.com/2010/03/12/get-your-poisoned-fema-trailers-on-the-cheap/

Excerpt: "On the one hand, living in one will give you cancer and make you reek of desperation. On the other hand, FEMA had to get rid of these things somehow: In a giant auction, the federal government has agreed to sell for pennies on the dollar most of the 120,000 formaldehyde-tainted trailers it bought nearly five years ago for Hurricane Katrina victims. But the sale of the units, perhaps the most visible symbol of the government's bungled response to the hurricane, has triggered a new round of charges that it is endangering future buyers for years to come. *Besides formaldehyde, units may be plagued by mold, mildew and propane gas leaks, FEMA acknowledged.*

"Proceed with caution, extreme caution, if you are tempted to respond to what appears to be an attractive offer for a travel trailer or manufactured home," Arkansas Attorney General Dustin McDaniel wrote in a consumer alert. He and others cautioned that the FEMA units could be resold many times, including over the Internet, and that unscrupulous sellers could remove warning labels or withhold information about the dangers.

Earlier this year, for example, local building inspectors in Missouri *discovered damaged FEMA units sold as scrap in earlier auctions in a Fenton, Mo., mobile home park, billed as housing even though their paperwork specified they were not to be occupied.*"

Get 'em while they're hot!! 

https://www.governmentauctions.org/fematrailers.asp

Excerpt: "While the government has stated that any "scrap" FEMA Trailers should not be used for occupancy and are not intended for habitation -- and we certainly do not advocate their use for anything other than scrap -- *a FEMA Release posits that the trailers are suitable for other non-occupancy uses such as for office space, command posts, or storage.* We're sure you'll figure out your own use. Just know that prolonged exposure to formaldehyde is very deleterious to your health, and, that a recent federal court decision (by US District Judge Kurt Engelhardt) ruled that government is not immune from lawsuits related to this issue. Nonetheless, various brands of travel trailers/campers are being sold (both individually, and in bulk), including Gulfstream Cavalier, Coachmen Cascade, R-Vision Trail-Sport, Monaco Holiday Rambler, Forest River, Recreation by Design, Fleetwood Spec and Merit, Pilgrim Spec, Crossroads Zinger, Jayco and others."


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## oldasrocks (Jun 30, 2012)

SewingMachine said:


> Rhino lining is a truck bed lining. It is a polyurethane. So basically saying a poly coated steel, and better sealing from the spray application. I guess you would start looking at the breakdown time of the poly, which minus exposure to ultraviolet light would be a long, long time.


The down side would be the steel ties used to make the framework out of the rebar. Where ever tied would cut through the rhino coating. Rocks in the backfill would also chip it.


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## oldasrocks (Jun 30, 2012)

readytogo said:


> So why so much junk? How much is too much America? Are we expecting a war or a doomsday any time soon ,because even then 40 guns with different ammo configurations probably collecting humidity are simply a logistic nightmare in my point of view . What about spare parts ,lots of ammo no parts . Another logistic nightmare ,many flashlights many different lightbulds and batteries, outdated batteries too ,even fancy rechargeable ones when storing them for more than 1 year you need to charge them at least once a year to prevent leakage and deterioration in performance due to self-discharging, big pain ,why? .Dry food ,wet food ,water that never gets rotated , expired iodine tables ,hoarding is a big mess and wasted money ,if many things are not stored in the proper environment, they will turn to dust.
> Just to many things to worried about in a already complicated world .Just have a garage sale or take it to church and give it away.[/QUOT
> 
> Storage of above is just like buying insurance. You pay hundreds if not thousands and rarely have a claim. So if you have to dis guard some preps write it off as a protection loss.


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## RedBeard (May 8, 2017)

oldasrocks said:


> The down side would be the steel ties used to make the framework out of the rebar. Where ever tied would cut through the rhino coating. Rocks in the backfill would also chip it.


Chip it? No you can't chip it. The pentagon is coated in the stuff. They use it to add blast resistance to the concrete walls. That stuff doesn't chip, rip, or come off at all. Mybuddy owns a shop in town here that sprays it on truck beds. They spray big dump trucks that get rocks dropped in them every day. No chipping no cracking.


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## AmishHeart (Jun 10, 2016)

I like guns.
Last I checked, it's ok to have lots of them.
And ammo. Everyone needs ammo.

RTG,,,It's Beans, Bullets, and Bandaids if you're a prepper.


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

Pessimistic2 said:


> Ummmm, you mean the ones loaded with formaldehyde?? They're going cheap....."


Shortened..... 
The good news is a person will be well preserved(and it won't cost to much to do it) and last as long as the Egyption mummys .  
Lol


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## SouthCentralUS (Nov 11, 2012)

terri9630 said:


> RTG, I just have to ask. Why are you on a prepping forum if you don't believe in prepping?


rtg has said many times if something happens the gov will rush right in to save them.


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