# CraRazy Cow, want to buy one?



## Cotton (Oct 12, 2013)

While at the sale barn this week I heard a story from another farmer. A couple moved out in the country next to him, the farmer said they were “peppers” lol. They built a fence, a shed, then purchased a few cows for milk and beef. What no one had bothered to tell them… To a thousand pound animal a 4 strand barbed wire fence is nothing more than a suggestion. And, most importantly, there are crazy cows! :nuts:

They had invited the old farmer over to look at their livestock. He’d told them one of their cows was crazy, they didn’t listen, said she'd get used to them. That cow ended up dead in the highway beside a totaled car after being “spooked” by their dog. 

Reminded me… a couple years ago and old friend called (another state). He’d developed a prepper mindset and wanted to get a few cows. He was looking at buying directly from a farm and have them delivered. He remembered a crazy cow story about my uncle and wanted a few pointers.

How do I tell him on the phone what I don’t even put into words when I look at a group of cows? I had to think about it for a week or so and then called him back.

Commercial producers have heavy duty facilities and can deal with a few crazy cows in the herd, and there are always a few.

Crazy… 2 categories, fearless and spooky. Fearless - rare but sometimes a cow is born without fear of humans or anything else. Spooky - will panic, harm themselves, other cattle or people for no real reason, more common.

I came up with a test for judging the disposition of a cow. Quickly, take one step towards the animal and raise both hands above his head without making a sound.

1) If the animal bolts – spooky! Pass.
2) If they take a few steps, stop and look back, fairly docile, a good candidate.
3) If they just stand there and look at you they are either…
A. very docile, a great candidate, might give you a short look then ignore you.
B. Fearless, risky! Will look you in the eye and stare.

This worked for my friend, he ended up with a few gentle cows he’s not afraid to let his grand kids around.

Any thoughts on how to spot a crazy cow? This should be a chapter in a preppers bovine buying guide.

Side note… This week I sold the source of crazy in our herd. “Grey” a big charolais with a little brangus in her blood. She was tolerated because she produced 17 high quality calves in her life. Most weren’t but a few of her offspring were problems, one put me in the hospital.

Grey was fearless and docile. She wasn’t a problem until there was a clash of wills. Then she was very dangerous. Once she got some electric fence wire badly tangled in a hoof. When I tried to cut it out she destroyed 2 corral panels. This week I ended up bloody and bruised trying to load that old cow into a trailer. I’m glad she’s gone but I’m going to miss those calves. Her offspring were incredible, still have 3 of her daughters. So the crazy bloodline isn’t completely gone! Just dormant, hope it stays that way. :beercheer:


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

ya don't want this one

https://video.search.yahoo.com/vide...b=12a68m2t0&ct=p&age=0&fr2=p:s,v:v,m:sa&&tt=b


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## Jewel (Sep 6, 2014)

My best suggestion is to buy a calf and raise it. that way you know how it's been raised and what it's been raised on (organics) and you teach it from the start how to be a part of the family but still obey the kings and queens (all two leggeds).

Nothing wrong with buying a cow though. But I would add that if they're very docile at a sale barn they may well be sick and/or medicated. The sale barn is scary for them so they should be on edge a little. Or at least very alert. A sale barn is also the first place unscrupulous people go to unload their damaged goods. Poor things.

And just because the rules say you aren't supposed to do something doesn't mean people don't do it daily.

Things to look for in healthy cattle are healthy coat, clear bright eyes, very pink mucus membranes, wet nose. try to be sure you're around when they poop. Be sure it looks ... texture and color, as it should and that it smells like it should. A sweet, sour, chemical or road kill smell is bad. A road kill smell in ruminants usually means parasite overload. Smell and touch the hair if possible, it should not feel greasy or brittle.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Crazy cow stories, I could go on for days, it seems to be one of our favorite topics of conversation at times 

As much as a person might try to explain things like cattle a certain part of it is just a matter of experience and a certain part is just instinct. I have worked with many novices over the years (including myself at one point) and despite every effort (on my part and other's) to explain what each cow is thinking it usually takes MANY hours of actively working them to really understand. People often think they understand when a particular cue is explained to them but in reality there is just so much nuance it is hard to narrow it down. People without a lot of experience see or hear something like "See that cow with her head up, she's going to cause trouble" it quickly becomes evident that that's the case so they make a mental note and picture, next time they see a cow with her head up they say "So, that ones going to cause trouble?" "Well, no actually she is just being curious and friendly" much repetition and some frustration ensues

An animal with their head up is a good warning sign of an animal you don't want though, main one I use, a stiff neck too. 

I agree with the O.P though, it is hard to put into words. I looked for books even and they do a very poor job imho. The best bet is to just get some experience and help from someone who is GOOD with cattle (NOTE: Not everyone who has cattle is good with them, one of the worst people I could imagine to emulate has worked with them daily for ages). Offer to give them a hand with something. If you can watch them work with their own cattle and preferably others as well you will do fine, the rest is just experience.

Luckily though, with a bit of common sense and an eye to safety most people should do fine. Starting off with reasonably quiet animals and just taking it easy is a safe bet. If someone wants to start a rodeo with hootin and hollerin tell them to :gtfo:

As to the subject of fences, we still use some 2 wire barbed, most cross-fences (not perimeter) are 3 wire and some perimeter are only 3. Our cows are NOT pets, there are a couple of course but the majority have never been touched outside of a squeeze chute on rare occasion.

Fences are VERY situational though, all but the most strong are purely psychological barriers. First of all we just don't tolerate any fence busters, if they learn that habit we usually give them one chance to see the error of their ways (electric fencer) or it's adios. Second of all, we try to make sure the fence fits the situation. If the cattle have never crossed a fence before and you let them onto a new pasture, the last thing on their minds will be to cross it. After a few days the clock starts ticking on how little they care for that fence (unless a fencer is used) so, we would never expect even a four wire fence to hold up with the cattle confined to a small area over winter, that takes page, plank, etc, or the occasional application of a fencer.

Anyways, this whole post is a rambling jumble because there is just so much to say and it is all so hard to put it into words. Watching (or having them help you ) someone who truly "gets" cattle is a beautiful thing to somebody like me.


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## Wellrounded (Sep 25, 2011)

cowboyhermit you are so right about experience not always equaling good with cattle. Three of the dairy herds I worked with were terrified of the farm owner, in all cases if they walked into the milking shed every cow would poop and piss, start to shift from foot to foot. As they walked past the cows the girls would push as far away from them as possible. If the owner was the one that brought the cows in to be milked we'd be 10% down on harvest. In one herd I contract milked for 6 months I'd have bouts of mastitis for days after the owner did a milking shift, I ended up telling him to keep away from the cows if he wanted me to stay. The poor girls would be so stressed the whole time he was in there. When his wife walked into the shed it got much, much worse. At the end of the six months I was beginning to get as jumpy as the cows and left, they were not good people. Still feel sorry for those animals.


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

I've found that staying away from sale barn cattle is a good first step. Unless you plan on buying the best of the sale (which you'll pay for), you'll end up with average to poor cattle that you know next to nothing about.

I would much rather buy from a private owner looking to sell a few head since I will be able to see them in their natural habitat. I can then judge by their behavior whether or not they're under stress. I can see the quality of the grass they've been feeding on and get a pretty good idea of how well they've been treated when the cattle are brought up to the pen. Are they driven by men on horseback or dogs, or are they just called up and come on their own? I mention that since we used to just call up our cattle with the horn on a minibike or by banging on the feed bucket. We even had a collie mix dog for a while that would bark and call them up. The cattle would come up at their own pace, some trotting, some lagging, but most would be in the corral in 20 minutes waiting for their hay and range cubes. Now in the spring and summer, it'd take a little bit longer since they'd always stop to munch on the grass, but they were well trained and would get there on their own. 

The only issues we had with cows getting out were with new mothers who would hide their calves. even then, they would be hidden along the fence line in the cedars or brush. We did have one cow who learned to tiptoe along the edge of the cattleguard at the front gate. She'd never wander more than about 20' from the gate and would ignore passing vehicles until she was ready to come back in or the herd moved off. Our 2000# Brangus bull was gentle enough that I could walk up to him in the field and scratch his head and even play push his head down. For those of you who don't know, it's a dominance thing among bulls.

Now I will warn you that dairy cattle are a whole different thing. I can vividly recall a man getting killed by a Jersey bull in my little town back when I was in high school.

The best way I know how to put it is I always like fat, lazy cattle who aren't in a hurry to do anything or go anywhere.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Agreed, auctions in general should not be anyone's first choice for breeding stock, that just isn't their purpose imo. If you have a connection with a really good buyer, know cattle very well, or are talking about specialized sales, or herd dispersals, that is a different story.

Still, in my experience, you are more likely to just get mediocre animals (for breeding purposes) that way. It can be very difficult, especially when prices are crazy high like they are now to pay the prices that top notch animals are bringing but it can pay huge dividends. Much better imo to start small with the best you can afford (by the standards of your particular situation), even if that means one heifer, then rely on natural increase or other top quality purchases. 

As for the fat, lazy cattle, I tend like them on the slightly "spunky" side for our situation.

Holstein bulls :nuts:


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## Jewel (Sep 6, 2014)

I agree completely on the sale barns. Around here anyway it's where people take stock to sell quick and cheap because they want to get rid of them for some reason. That doesn't mean everything there is bad or sick and you can get a bad or sick animal in person too. It's just more likely at the sale barn.

Another reason to avoid is that the sick can quickly infect the healthy in such a crowded place.

I grew up with my Grandfather's Milking Shorthorn, the old fashioned kind. They were gentle giants, even the bulls. My aunt and uncle had Holstein and all those i knew were very docile. 

The meanest cow in the universe was the one Guernsey cow my Grandfather kept for her high cream content. My Grandfather was afraid of nothing but did fear that cow. Her name was Daisy but my sister and I called her Devil and refused to drink Devil milk in protest. She also happened to be about the most beautiful cow you could ever see.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Temple Grandon has a book about Cattle and behaviour, it has a lot of ideas about how the average cow will react to people and their surroundings, in practice however each herd has its own group dynamic. Hand raised animals can be the most dangerous, because the think they are people and out weigh you by several orders of magnitude. I don't like flighty cows, but I don't like pets either, pets are dangerous. I often use the eye as gage of how a cow or bull will be to get along with, dead eyed animals can be very dangerous. Another thing that can bring out nasty behaviour is being singled out from the herd. Years ago a neighbors cow got separated from her herd. I don't know the details of how that happened, but she was in our corral, I had been hauling some of our cattle and just got home with the stock trailer, Simple we load her in the trailer and take her home. (2 miles down the road) She would not get in the trailer and would try to kill anyone who got in the pen with her (poor handling system in those days) The owner showed up, saw which of his animals it was and said we needed a couple more of his cows to put in with her. So I went down to his yard, he sent his dogs to "get some cows" (that is what he told them) they brought about 10 head to the corral and we loaded a few in the trailer, I backed into our corral he let his cows out, put them in the holding pen while I backed up to the chute, he opens our chute pen gate, let the cows mix for a couple of minutes and the cow that had been trying to kill us 1/2 an hour ago quietly walked into the trailer with her herd mates. Simple? NO, kind of eye opening yes the cattle that I had been around had always been conditioned to function when alone, mostly by accident as far as I know, but the lesson for me was Cows are creature of habit and it is hard to break those habits. The funniest thing that I hear from people when handling cattle is "nothing dumber than a cow", when the cow has just beat them in a battle of wits. Cows are individuals, and behave differently, we have a cow that drops her calf on an icy spot and then decides to try to kill me when I help her, She is a great cow the rest of the year and raises a great calf.


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## Cotton (Oct 12, 2013)

I agree with the consensus, sale barns aren't the place to buy breeding stock. They hold special sales for breeders but they are advertised in advance. With prices this high everyone is dumping. Just good business, the stockyard buyers know what they are getting. I looked through the holding pens at the sale the other day, joked with some guy "I couldn't throw a rock without hitting a cull". I'm dumping too, getting rid of marginal cows what ever the reason. I'm planning to re-invest in some select heifers from an individual.

My friend was buying from an individual because of something I said long ago. I don't remember saying it but it sounded like something I would say. He paid top dollar but he got what he paid for, quality. He claimed my little test helped him "narrow down" his choices but I think it had more to do with man who was selling. That man understood the situation, knew what my friend needed and dealt with him fairly. I tried to help my friend with something a novice could easily see and judge.
_
An animal with their head up is a good warning sign of an animal you don't want though, main one I use, a stiff neck too. Cowboyhermit_

How do you compress years of experience into a few short sentences? I can't, try as I may. My main key for crazy has always been their eyes. I've no idea how to explain what I see, maybe more instinct than anything else.

I've heard crazy cows described by novices in other forums who didn't even know they had problem cows, thought what their new cow did was "cute". How do you tell them? Others tried but of course they didn't listen. My advice would have been buy salt, keep the cutlery and pans clean and hope no one gets hurt! 

I liked Jewels suggestion about buying a calf and raising it. I've given away calves I didn't want to bottle feed. Bad timing for me and someone got a bargain. If this interests you find some commercial produces and get your name in the pot. It happens from time to time, you can get a calf free or next to nothing, just don't make it a pet. Remember, "beef, its what's for dinner".


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## Wellrounded (Sep 25, 2011)

Both our dexter x jersey cows were bought as calves and hand raised. We lost a calf this year and did a quick trip to a local dairy and grabbed a little bully calf for the cow to raise, think we paid $50.00. Funny thing is he's now 2 months old and taller than any of our other cows, he's going to look such a monster as he grows.


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

Cotton said:


> I liked Jewels suggestion about buying a calf and raising it. I've given away calves I didn't want to bottle feed. Bad timing for me and someone got a bargain. If this interests you find some commercial produces and get your name in the pot. It happens from time to time, you can get a calf free or next to nothing, just don't make it a pet. Remember, "beef, its what's for dinner".


I too like the bottle feed suggestion. We did it twice (one male calf, one female) and it worked out pretty well. We got both calves, which were registered Brangus, for very reasonable prices. There is a considerable time and money commitment to bottle feeding though.

The only drawback is that both calves ended up stunted in size. The cow ended up being one of our best breeders while we sent the male off to the sale barn with the rest of that years crop.

One thing to look for in whatever cattle you choose to buy is the width of the hip pointers (distance between the pelvic bones.) Wide hip pointers make for easier calving which is a factor in how often you have to pull a calf.

I also prefer hornless cattle since the horns are weapons and are capable of doing quite a bit of damage. Depending on your local predator situation, you may decide differently.

In our neck of the woods, cattle rustling has made a big comeback. Most rustlers haul their cattle to distant sale barns.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Marcus said:


> I too like the bottle feed suggestion. We did it twice (one male calf, one female) and it worked out pretty well. We got both calves, which were registered Brangus, for very reasonable prices. There is a considerable time and money commitment to bottle feeding though.
> 
> The only drawback is that both calves ended up stunted in size. The cow ended up being one of our best breeders while we sent the male off to the sale barn with the rest of that years crop.
> 
> ...


Bottle fed calves need to have their head in the same position that they would while suckling the cow, this posture bypasses the first part of the rumen and lets the milk digest properly. this is especially important early in their life.


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## Txcatlady1 (Nov 9, 2014)

I don't name any of my cattle. They have a number or a description. I try to remind myself that they have a job and are not a pet. It still will be hard to sell them. After spending years gentling and feeding them, they are special to me. And God always provides. The years money is tight, we get bull calves. In good years, more heifers. Actually got anew bull calf yesterday out of my Brahford momma bred to a brangus bull. Big black baldy might make a good show steer. Only a day old so time will tell, but his momma got an udder!


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## Hooch (Jul 22, 2011)

When I was younger, my friends family always had a few cows who were all fairly docile. The first cow they bought for their herd my friend gentled and actually could throw a saddle on her. She was a small gentle cow who threw very nice babies. Rosie lived well into the upper 20's and they kept her around even after she stopped being a mom. 

That same friend decided to buy a full brahma cow to breed. My friend said oh ill make her friendly..yeh..right. She got a few babies out of here before Crystal ate a bullet after one of her many chase scenes, fence destroying jumping over everything cows gone wild days...

I used to ranchsit her house often and that beast was no joke..beautiful but lots of fire in her personality. All the other cows they had were mellow, wouldnt do anything to the dogs, you could go into their field, move them without fuss etc. I though all cows were pretty much like that untill I met Crystal.
The bull they rented chased me up a tree one time but it was a playful chase. He was hand raised but..he was a big guy. I was helping my friend get him into the area where his owner could load him up. I was leading Rosie cow, his favorite down the little roadway and my friend decides to grab the grain bucket. So his attention was shifted to following me and rosie quietly down the way to his most favorite..grain. It was only a few handfulls but enough for him to stop and me and rosie got just a tad to far from him and so when he was done he caught up. Well the sight of a happy humongous horned bull bucking, snot flying everywhere, jogging monster of a bull headed toward me at a good clip and I flew up the tree way faster I thought possible. My friend is laughing and screaming for me to just stay on the opposite side of Rosie but Im thinking no frackin way in the moment. He ended up taking a few rounds of bronco bull busting rodeo bucking fest around the tree. He was having a great time and I probably taught him a new fun game with humans but...I dont care. He wasnt my bull and the owner should have moved him out of the girls pen. 

Ill never forget the look he gave me of pure joy and slight confusion, I swear he cocked his big massive head like, " I dont get it but I like this game!" as he stopped inbetween bucks once. I could hear my friend laughing so hard, calling for her parents to grab the camcorder..as she pokes her head out of the shed she took cover in. His bucking fest only lasted a few minutes and he finally rammed into a stack of alalfha and straw bales stacked about 6 feet high with his head. He rammed them on purpose..I think just for fun and Im hanging upside down on a limp not far enough off the ground I see a 70 pound bales of hay fly apart. I looked at my friends and yelled.."See!! Stick by Rosie my @ss!!" 

Once he calmed down a few minutes later, we continued the journey to the other barn area. Ill tell you I was ready to bolt..Boy I didnt live that down for awhile. 

Another bull us kids would have to run through his field to get to the prime swimming hole. He would chase us..sorta if he was close. We didnt trust him but he wasnt really that interested in us either. 

When I was in college, I had a farm management class. We would go out on local ranches for class and do whatever needed to be done. One cattle ranch they had seperated all the younger ones, probably 6 month to year olds. I remember they were getting shots and those growth hormone pellets they put under the skin and whatever else they needed. They were rustled and very stressed out. I volunteered to be the one to direct them into the shoot thing when it was their turn. They had another area they were working first. I was feeling lazy, hanging out with them. They were keeping their distance from me but as im standing there quiet for a long time one got curious and came within about 6 feet or so. Without looking at it I inched closer and kneeled down. It spooked at first but curiousity got to it again..it got closer. I had a little whip thing and eventually I was scratching its belly with it. It took me alittle while, very slow non threating movements and eventually I could stand next to it and scratch away. It was about 4 hours later and I had about 6 or so calves around me all ok with me standing up and gently scratching them as I slowly moved about. Eventually my teacher and the rancher noticed it and wanted to see if I could lead them over into the shoot. A few I couldnt but a few followed me so long as the door to it was open already. The noise would shy them away and I didnt want to get knocked over. It was pretty cool..cows are not as dumb as folks usually think. 

Those are my notable expeirences with cattle. Most of the time, they were just there..part of the landscape. Im debating on if im going to get any once I move. I have almost 9 acres of really nice grazing rolling hills. I'd really want a hardy type breed, maybe a heritage breed? I hear Yaks are all around kinda neet. Hardy, docile, can get milk, hair and meat. I wont get alot of snow but in winter it will get cold so Id like a breed that can tolorate that.

Any suggestions?? 

 Or Ill get some goats..
Apparently, I have a crazy donkey that sorta came with the land. She actually belong to the neighbors down the way. The story is the gal who is in the place I bought had her for the summer for her son to try n get her more not crazy. Her son couldnt get close with her and donkey got out of her area. They couldnt catch her and she eventually got loose and has been running around the area most of the fall. Donkey shows up at someones house now and then, she likes company but not to be touched and handled. So, about a week ago, donkey showed up inside the property. The gal and her son tried to round her up and got dragged across the field. They gave up and donkey is hanging out still. She didnt know how Id take it that I have a semi wild donkey on the property they cant handle...lol!! Im told she isnt going after any of her animals and just hangs out mainly. 

I cant wait to meet Donkey!!


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Hooch said:


> ...
> I'd really want a hardy type breed, maybe a heritage breed? I hear Yaks are all around kinda neet. Hardy, docile, can get milk, hair and meat. I wont get alot of snow but in winter it will get cold so Id like a breed that can tolorate that.
> 
> Any suggestions??
> ...


Unless you are talking about a place with really cold temps like we have (-40 to be expected) then pretty much any breed will be fine. Brahmas are a notable exception, but they can do ok too. Even Texas longhorns which are great in the heat do fine up here.

There are certain breeds that do excel in the cold like highland, but they are not great for milking. My choice would likely be a dual purpose breed like short-horn or other similar. If you could find an old fashioned Simmental, imo they are one of the best cattle breeds for most circumstances. They were bred for beef, milk, and draught work and were kept hardy. Unfortunately most lines today are strictly beef and messed up at that (Simmental are NOT black or solid red)
They are supposed to look something like this;









Not like this;









In general, most milking and dual purpose breeds will do well, cattle are much more adaptable to climate than pretty much any livestock. Theoretically you can of course milk an angus, a hereford, or charolais (all decent cold hard beef breeds), but it will generally not be the most rewarding process


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## Jewel (Sep 6, 2014)

We have friends with Highlands and the milk is quite good but low in cream and not nearly as much as a dairy breed.

I hope for a Dexter although finding a bull will be difficult and expensive. Thankfully like any mammal you don;t have to continually breed for milk. But we want meat too and it does keep the milk production at peak. I've known quite a few Dexters, used to have a friend who raised them. There's always the chance for a bad one but all the ones I've known were very good, easy going cattle and excellent for triple purpose dairy, meat and draft. Plus the smallest o the real breeds.

Has anyone had or know anything about the miniatures?


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## Jewel (Sep 6, 2014)

Marcus said:


> I too like the bottle feed suggestion. We did it twice (one male calf, one female) and it worked out pretty well. We got both calves, which were registered Brangus, for very reasonable prices. There is a considerable time and money commitment to bottle feeding though.
> 
> The only drawback is that both calves ended up stunted in size. The cow ended up being one of our best breeders while we sent the male off to the sale barn with the rest of that years crop.
> 
> ...


I actually think you'll get a much healthier calf if it's raised by it's own mother. I personally would only bottle feed if it had to be. Of course, if you're buying the calves you can't handle them like they need to be handled though so bottle feeding might be the better option. We raised a lot of bottle calves growing up. I don't recall ever having any with stunted growth.

Also, on horns, I truly understand wanting polled but polled genetics isn't completely healthy and horns are used for cooling the animals in addition to itching and defense. I truly do understand though, I got broken ribs by an absolute sweet and gentle Jersey trying to swipe flies.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Even a dairy breed calf in good condition is bringing around $1000 @weaning (6months ish) at the auction (beef or dual purpose like simmental are much higher of course). Unless more cows are needed there is no need to breed to the same kind (crossbreeds generally perform better anyways) so with prices where they are getting a bull for a couple months or letting your cows go to one for a visit should not be that tough.

With a cow, especially a full-sized one, there is no reason for most people to wean the calf early (plenty of milk to go around) calves are to easy sell and should more than pay for any of the cow's expenses and of course the milk is just gravy.

There have been discussions of miniatures on here in the past. I have seen some good ones and some ones that simply had the dwarfism genes. I believe they are still improving but breeds like dexter seem to have a more solid reputation at this point. I know of a few people who LOVE the miniatures though :dunno: The one major downside imo is you compromise one of the best aspects of cattle imo, the fact that they are so easily marketable. Trying to sell other animals can be daunting and/or tedious but with cattle there are auctions practically everywhere that you can just drop off cattle and get a cheque from whoever wants them the most. And, unlike other animals, the prices are relatively fair and stable.


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## Jewel (Sep 6, 2014)

Hooch said:


> When I was younger, my friends family always had a few cows who were all fairly docile. The first cow they bought for their herd my friend gentled and actually could throw a saddle on her. She was a small gentle cow who threw very nice babies. Rosie lived well into the upper 20's and they kept her around even after she stopped being a mom.
> 
> That same friend decided to buy a full brahma cow to breed. My friend said oh ill make her friendly..yeh..right. She got a few babies out of here before Crystal ate a bullet after one of her many chase scenes, fence destroying jumping over everything cows gone wild days...
> 
> ...


goats might be the answer for you. They can be very destructive but cows can too in the wrong places. goats are much easier to handle overall and easier to home butcher. The main drawback is that you don't readily get cream for butter and even with a cream separate you need more milk for the same amount of butter you would get from cows cream. We did have one Saanen doe with enough cream to rise as it sat and I got about a 1/4 to 1/2 cup butter per week.

Otherwise you can do all the same things, I make cheeses, hard and soft, cottage cheese, cream cheese, yogurt, ice cream ...

I have a great friend who lives in Maine and raises Yaks. He's on the new Homesteading group remade from the old Homestead.org group. I can find the address or you, if you want it. His name is Chris and he actually lives with Yaks that come into his cabin. I've never met a Yak in purpose but he has sent me Yak hairs


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## Jewel (Sep 6, 2014)

cowboyhermit said:


> Even a dairy breed calf in good condition is bringing around $1000 @weaning (6months ish) at the auction (beef or dual purpose like simmental are much higher of course). Unless more cows are needed there is no need to breed to the same kind (crossbreeds generally perform better anyways) so with prices where they are getting a bull for a couple months or letting your cows go to one for a visit should not be that tough.
> 
> With a cow, especially a full-sized one, there is no reason for most people to wean the calf early (plenty of milk to go around) calves are to easy sell and should more than pay for any of the cow's expenses and of course the milk is just gravy.
> 
> There have been discussions of miniatures on here in the past. I have seen some good ones and some ones that simply had the dwarfism genes. I believe they are still improving but breeds like dexter seem to have a more solid reputation at this point. I know of a few people who LOVE the miniatures though :dunno: The one major downside imo is you compromise one of the best aspects of cattle imo, the fact that they are so easily marketable. Trying to sell other animals can be daunting and/or tedious but with cattle there are auctions practically everywhere that you can just drop off cattle and get a cheque from whoever wants them the most. And, unlike other animals, the prices are relatively fair and stable.


It's a little harder with Dexters because of their size. A Dexter bull can breed any full size dairy cow but a Dexter cow needs a smaller bull. Around here Herford, Angus, Simmental, Charolaise and there mixes are what most folk have and too big for a Dexter cow. Some of the bulls are the size of my blazer  Although I have seen some shorter angus mix bulls.

I agree completely on weaning naturally. Unless there's a medical reason all our animals wean naturally. Healthier happier animals make healthier happier food.

Dexters are naturally smallish, never bred to be so. They're a heritage breed.

I've always wondered about the miniature cattle. they must not be that great or they would have been more popular among smallholders. Breeding for genetic defects like polled, dwarfism, bobtail etc etc is never a good idea in my opinion.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Jewel said:


> It's a little harder with Dexters because of their size. A Dexter bull can breed any full size dairy cow but a Dexter cow needs a smaller bull.
> 
> Definitely, with the Dexters that is an issue, it is possible to breed with a bull from another breed but only with extreme caution, and typically with a smaller bull or a yearling for practical reasons aside from genetic ones. They are pretty much the exception to the rule though. For instance Jersey cows are small (though not AS small) and I have seen them successfully run (and I have done it) with big bulls of big breeds like Simmental with no problems. Jerseys in particular are good at that though.
> 
> ...


It's probably getting a little off-topic but I do think that it is fair to say that Dexters _were_ bred to be smaller, just like others were bred to be bigger, it just wasn't as organized and clear cut a process as most people understand it today.

As for the other traits, I don't think breeding for particulars is inherently a bad idea, I haven't seen any reasons for that personally. I just think it is something that must be done carefully and often takes time to work out. The amazing varieties of livestock we have available (and those lost to history) are all a result of selecting for abnormal traits at one point or another.

For example, it would be hard to suggest polled cattle are unnatural, Angus and Galloway have been that way since they existed as a breed (hundreds of years) and they are undoubtedly good cattle imo. True, horns are a good adaptation for heat but that only is an advantage depending on climate. Brahmas do great in the heat but are borderline in the cold :dunno: I think we are tremendously blessed by the breeding done by our ancestors in so many area and we are quickly throwing loads of it away


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

Jewel said:


> I agree completely on weaning naturally. Unless there's a medical reason all our animals wean naturally. Healthier happier animals make healthier happier food.


I agree, but if the mother rejects, can't produce milk, or dies, there's not much choice.

As far as horns, the Brangus breed characteristics call for no horns. I got sifted at the Houston stock show because my heifer had little buttons (1/2" or so.) If I recall correctly, Angus has the same thing.

One breed to avoid is the Piedmont/Piedmontese which is a rare breed in North America. From what I recall from Ag class many, many moons ago, this breed has a double layer of muscle and actually yields somewhere close to 55-60% of slaughter weight vs 40+% for a beef breed. The reason to avoid this breed is because the extra muscle causes birthing problems. Most calves have to be pulled.


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## Txcatlady1 (Nov 9, 2014)

We have gotten away from pure bred cattle. I miss those new gray or red Brahman calves! Easy calving usually but too lean for county shows without a Brahman class and not much money for steers at sale. Crossbreed sells better. We still have people calling for Brahford heifers as they love the tiger stripe. Brangus are popular too. No matter how much you handle these cattle, when a momma has a calf, beware. The Bulls are good in pen when working for just so long. They need to be let out first! Crazy can show up when you least expect it! We weeded out cows that don't pen well or calves don't grow well. Husband has built stock pen that allows him to work cows by himself but still needs a little help. Six foot tall pens. I have seen a cow clear a 5 ft. Before. Crazy heard a calf bellow one day while I was crossing pasture on foot. She chased me all the way up the hill! I was lucky to get to a tree before she got me.


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## Hooch (Jul 22, 2011)

..
Well I have a lot of research to do..I will look up those breeds you all mentioned and steer clear of the others. 

I had no idea people were breeding mini cattle?? but im not interested..

I think once I get to where Im going I will check out the area and see what kind of cattle are favored around the area, whats available locally, breeding options locally and all that. If I do get a cow, she will be young enough that I can work with her..like a kids 4 h or ffa project size and go from there. I plan on keeping her till she dies but her calves will be my canning and freezer calves. I may not even have to breed her every year either once I get a good stock in the pantry going. I guess I could do what my friend does and just buy a steer every other year and call out the butcher. But ideally what Id like is to have the ability to be a self sufficient as possible and a breeder..even if I just have one is better than nothing. And Ill get milk n products out of that and some draft work would be cool too. Boy wouldnt it be awesome if a bull was close by!! 

Or my other option would be a few goats...

So many choices


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## Jewel (Sep 6, 2014)

Marcus said:


> I agree, but if the mother rejects, can't produce milk, or dies, there's not much choice.
> 
> As far as horns, the Brangus breed characteristics call for no horns. I got sifted at the Houston stock show because my heifer had little buttons (1/2" or so.) If I recall correctly, Angus has the same thing.
> 
> One breed to avoid is the Piedmont/Piedmontese which is a rare breed in North America. From what I recall from Ag class many, many moons ago, this breed has a double layer of muscle and actually yields somewhere close to 55-60% of slaughter weight vs 40+% for a beef breed. The reason to avoid this breed is because the extra muscle causes birthing problems. Most calves have to be pulled.


For me, all the above fall under medical reasons  I've bottle raised calves, kids, kittens, puppies a colt.. and they all turned out healthy and happy.

I didn't know Brangus was a breed. The more I learn, the more there is to learn!

But, just because a thing is or isn't accepted by show or even breed standards doesn't mean it didn't get there without human interference in the first place  Not that there's anything wrong with it. I breed goats, rabbits and poultry with the intention of always bettering my stock .... health, quality, more milk, meat, even colors etc... Breeding for positive characteristics is a good thing as long as the line isn't crossed. Nature does the same ... generally the healthiest, strongest etc breed and the weaker lines usually die out. In nature genetic mutations are even sometimes killed by the parent or others of it's kind. I don't and would not do that if the creature was healthy, but I wouldn't add it to the gene pool either.


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## Cotton (Oct 12, 2013)

I had no idea miniature cattle could be dangerous but… At an auction I was checking out the holding pens. A female employee was herding 3 miniature brama’s, a bull and 2 cows. One of the cows kicked her on the shin. I had no idea such a small animal could kick that hard! 

The lady went to the ground holding her shin. It didn’t sound like a baseball bat hitting her… more like a golf club, maybe a 3 wood! It was loud! Whack!

I couldn’t help but die laughing, it was so comical! After a moment the lady looks around and see’s me laughing and gestured that I was “number 1”. She was smiling a little, it was sooo funny! 

Side note… breeders. I was being transferred across the country. I happened to stop in Lexington ky. derby weekend. I was exhausted, been towing a trailer 10 hours, headache, hungry, stopped at 5 motels before I got a room.

I checked the restaurant, closed. I stopped by the bar to see if they had chips or something to eat. The cook who’d just closed the kitchen was sitting at the bar. He offered to make me a ham sandwich, I was very grateful! :congrat:

There was a loud drunk on the other side of the bar. I ignored him. He finally spotted me, shouted across the bar “Are you here for the derby?”

I was in no mood for conversation, especially with a drunk. I said “No”!

He questioned my sanity for not being there for the derby etc. on and on... Then he shouted at me… “I’m here for the derby… I’m a horse breeder!”

“Does your wife know?” I asked. The other patrons roared in laughter! 

After he tried to attack me he was escorted to the door by a rather large gentleman. 

I enjoyed one of the best ham sandwiches I’d had in years. artydance:


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

Jewel said:


> I didn't know Brangus was a breed. The more I learn, the more there is to learn!
> 
> But, just because a thing is or isn't accepted by show or even breed standards doesn't mean it didn't get there without human interference in the first place  Not that there's anything wrong with it. I breed goats, rabbits and poultry with the intention of always bettering my stock .... health, quality, more milk, meat, even colors etc... Breeding for positive characteristics is a good thing as long as the line isn't crossed. Nature does the same ... generally the healthiest, strongest etc breed and the weaker lines usually die out. In nature genetic mutations are even sometimes killed by the parent or others of it's kind. I don't and would not do that if the creature was healthy, but I wouldn't add it to the gene pool either.


Brangus is 3/8 Brahman and 5/8 Angus. The breed was developed in an effort to produce a breed that combines the best qualities of each of the parent breeds.

Most of the hardier breeds like Brahman and Longhorns tend to have lean meat (less fat and therefore less marbling) which make them less desirable for eating. This is also one of the reasons Beefalo were developed since Buffalo meat is lower in cholesterol and higher in protein than beef.


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## txplowgirl (Jul 29, 2011)




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