# Gas Masks



## TechAdmin (Oct 1, 2008)

Any suggestions on gas masks? We have several local chemical plants around here and there is always the very slight chance one could contaminant the air. I recall a city in East Texas having a toxic cloud creep over their city a couple years back.


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## gds (Oct 10, 2008)

Always have on hand the $40 dollar respirator from your local box store ( better then a wet hankie). I think it's good down to .05 microns. That's what my acquaintances use for lead abatement, mold ,asbestos, etc..
The cost and maintenance on a true gas mask is beyond most. 
Allot of degradation going on in the filters and the suit if it is readily available. As in laying in the back of the truck/car.


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## ldmaster (Oct 10, 2008)

aw heck,

Not expensive at all to get a real gas mask and keep some filters for it.

I have a couple of millenium masks from MSA. The filters come in mylar sealed pouches with a several year shelf-life.

A true gas-mask filter can protect you from a lot of chemicals - a typical respirator mask is meant to protect you from SPECIFIC chemicals (like the fumes from paint) but it's not effective across a broad enough spectrum, AND chemical compounds (most) are far far smaller than a .05 microns. Essentially there are absorbtive chemicals in the higher level filters (NBC rated filters). A few tyvek body suits are pretty cheap insurance too. Depending on the nature of the contaminant, you MAY not have much time to get out of there before your filter fails. There is a nifty tool to calculate the time your filter can be useful.

MSA Cartridge Life Expectancy Calculator

Tyvek suits are impermeable, depending on the brand and equipment, they are indispensable in a chemical environment. here's a good discussion of their utility.

Information Bridge: DOE Scientific and Technical Information - Sponsored by OSTI

If you buy a case, you can get them as cheap as 3.50 a case of 25, the deluxe models (with hoods) costing slightly more.

So, a 150 dollar gas mask, 3 specific mylar sealed filters and a couple of suits and I'm set. Doesn't matter if they sit in my hot truck, or my cool basement.

You really REALLY need to check who stores large supplies of chemicals near you. The National Water Lab used to be near me, and they had at any one time the equivalent of 5,000 dry pounds (each) of sulfuric and nitric acid. The map they had on the wall showed how far the stuff would spread in a low-wind condition, in a fire situation, in 1 hour, 4 hours, etc... I really really wanted to be at least 5 miles away within the first hour.

I'd suggest talking to your local fire department, they have all these sites in a databse, firefighters like to talk - just ASK!


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## 1sttnrifles (Oct 18, 2008)

Sportsman's Guide has the East German m-10's, 3 for 29.99, includes bags, filters and extra lenses. Then Mainemilitary.com has the NBC hood's for these mask for 3.99. Just FYI......


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## Tom (Oct 24, 2008)

Anyone famaliar with the M-10 and it's efficiently as a mask?


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## 1sttnrifles (Oct 18, 2008)

Look up the US M-17, same thing......


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## ldmaster (Oct 10, 2008)

Masks are only effective if they are equipped with the PROPER filter for the environment you are in AND if they give you proper fit.  A mask with 80 percent fit you might as well not even wear if it's a truly dangerous environment. MSA sells a kit to help you determine total fit and to improve fit. Mask size is important, too small as well as too large - and some faces just aren't built for a good fit. You owe it to yourself to improve your mask fit, as well as find the appropriate filter for the mask. The M10, M17, Israeli civilian, etc... are all effective, it's the FILTER that you need to concentrate on, since most utilize the same threads, you can get a mask from one source and find a somewhat cheaper filter elsewhere. 

When you THINK you have an effective filter, put yourself in an enclosed space, and pour pure muriatic (pool acid) onto some dry chlorine and stir it. If you find yourself getting a whiff of it - RUN AWAY!!! It wont kill you, but the leakage is unmistakeable. 

You function test your firearms.
You taste the food you can.
You test your mechanical backup systems.

Why would you NOT test the one thing that can keep you alive long enough to get out of dodge in a chemical situation?


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

Having been a Hazardous Materials Specialist in a previous life, I do question the real-world protection of anyone purchasing surplus chemical protective gear. There simply are so many varibles. What's the chemical, what state is it in, how reactive, what does it react with, concentration, is it contained indoors or was it released into the atmosphere? You get the picture.

And, remember...your "gear" (whatever protection it provides, if any) is only good IF you have it with you and you don it BEFORE being inundated by a chemical cloud.

Finally, there is something called DECON. Removing contaminated gear when not having the ability to decon yourself or have others do it will still expose you to the chemical(s).

SARA Title III, a federal law passed years ago, mandates your locality to be able to show you what chemical inventory a near-by facility has on site. Contact your local Emergency Manager if you have questions.


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## Incoming (Oct 27, 2008)

I picked up 3 m-10's a while back from Cheaper Than Dirt for $20 with filter. They truned out to be new units with a bag manufactured in Sweeden. Put them in the BOB's so it seemed to be a bargin. Also have some good quality mask from Israel for home use and a case of filters for back-up.

Incoming


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## Deon (Oct 27, 2008)

Just pick up one from your local head shop and buy some filters for it. Don't head shops carry the filters for them though. lol


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## Incoming (Oct 27, 2008)

Just noticed in the "Cheaper Than Dirt" I received today that they have Finnish Gas Mask with a filter and bag for $9.97.


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## GPER (Oct 28, 2008)

Different makes of masks fit different people so you will need to be fitted with a mask that will fit your face. You also will need to be clean shaven since facial hair interferes with the fit of the mask.

Depending on the chemicals at the plants will dictate what cartridges you will need and how long they last. Depending on whatever it is you might need an air bottle.


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## SurvivalNut (Nov 13, 2008)

*Gas Masks - WARNING*

I think there is potential for a lot of deadly misinformation in this thread. Please be careful.

I retired from the Army in '95. Specialty was Nuclear Weapons / Special Weapons Team. If my information is wrong or misleading, please accept my apologies.

Military Gas Masks filter particles out of the air. If you are wearing a military mask in a chlorine or muriatic acid environment (like someone suggested for testing purposes) YOU WILL DIE. When a chemical replaces air (chlorine, carbon monoxide, ammonia, etc) the military filter is useless.

If you pour dirt through a water filter, you will not get water. If you filter a chemical through a gas mask, you will NOT get oxygen. 
The term "gas mask" is a misnomer.

Blood agents, nerve agents, blister agents, certain biological agents are heavier than air and are filtered by the mask filters, just like a water filter would filter micro bugs or sand from creek water

The further problem, is once you take the mask off, the mask in your hands, your clothing and environment is still contaminated with the offending agent. It is a specific military specialty to decontaminate (ever seen ET....)

Dust filters / masks are a useful piece of gear in your kit. DISTANCE is your only saviour for a chemical spill. (or a scuba tank, but come on....)

Please rethink the information being passed out here. It will kill someone.

Any firefighters/ EMT's want to lend a hand on this subject?

PS--the fibers in military gas mask filters degrade over time, that's why they are sold off. The US Military tosses their sealed filters after 2-3 years. MRE's last longer than filters. Aren't Saabs made in Sweden too? I don't keep one of those in my BOB either.

Think twice about this friends. I can go on about chemicals but for now, this topic should be the one who dies.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

I've used an Isreali mask in Cyanide.[methylisocyanate]it works quite well.
But not in the concentration where it replaced air.


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## skip (Dec 13, 2008)

SurvivalNut said:


> I think there is potential for a lot of deadly misinformation in this thread. Please be careful.
> 
> I retired from the Army in '95. Specialty was Nuclear Weapons / Special Weapons Team. If my information is wrong or misleading, please accept my apologies.
> 
> ...


SN, I live about 20 miles from a military base which trains, and stores chem weapons. The wind would usually blow anything away from us. Should we be worried?


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## Canadian (Dec 14, 2008)

I could use a suggestion on gas masks for my wife and I. The only thing I'm worried about is riot police shooting tear gas near my complex and having the wind blow it into our unit. I'm not too worried about other chemicals.


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## SurvivalNut (Nov 13, 2008)

Canadian said:


> I could use a suggestion on gas masks for my wife and I. The only thing I'm worried about is riot police shooting tear gas near my complex and having the wind blow it into our unit. I'm not too worried about other chemicals.


For your purpose the Cheaper than dirt military suplus masks are perfect. CS gas disperses quickly or can be showered off and is (mostly) not life threatening. A special suit s not needed, just a cheapo gas mask.


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## SurvivalNut (Nov 13, 2008)

*20 miles from an ammo dump*



skip said:


> SN, I live about 20 miles from a military base which trains, and stores chem weapons. The wind would usually blow anything away from us. Should we be worried?


On the first point you are right; the wind is your best ally.

Chemicals are a little out of my specialty. My forte is nukes. I will answer you with a hefty IMHO and address the question if I were in your shoes and compared to what I actually would do and am doing.

1/ A 72 hour kit is your best friend

2/ a half tank of gas, as a habit, is your next best friend.

3/ A 2-week supply of food, water and medicine, even before you break into your long-term food storage is a must.

Here is an article about building a safe room.

Homeland Security News » Safe Room

4/ Therefore, some cheap painter's tarps, duct tape and a homemade filter system complete your preparation. Download the free manual on Nuclear Survival. It is dated, but has some valuable parallel ideas. I sell the disk on eBay for $4. It has the complete manual and about 50 other e-versions of medical and survival manuals.

Masks will work for Military chemical agents, but what do you do to decontaminate your body. Some agents will kill you with just a small dot of agent on your skin. The Israeli's have child size masks, and they also shelter in place. But they are under threat of deliberate, delivered agents. Such was Dugway. A single canister breaking open and haphazardly dropping agent on the ground is a very minute threat.

A safe room is a much better idea.

In the Army, we would spend 30 minutes to 3 hours a day in full mask while on 30 day field exercises. Not fun. We also lived in our chemical suits 24 hours a day. Still, if hit with NBC weapons, we would still have taken casualties, both from the attack and the iffy process of decontamination. To have your children strap on a rubber mask that restricts breathing and makes you sweat like a pig is just cruel and impractical. For anyone who has bought a surplus mask in this thread, try wearing it for an hour and then tell me it is the best solution. I DARE YOU!

I read the wiki article on the Dugway incident.

Dugway sheep incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It agrees that the threat is heavier than air particles dispersed deliberately as an aerosol. Wind, Temperature, humidity and luck all play into determining the dispersal pattern and the "hang-time".

Terrorists are stupid. Unprepared civilians are stupider.

NOTE: some duct tape does not stick well to plastic tarps. Check your stock out to make sure it works and rotate your duct tape thru normal use.

BLUF: I'm okay where you are and wouldn't worry. Anyone should have steps 1-4 on hand. Rest. Enjoy life. Look forward to retirement.


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## jebrown (Nov 7, 2008)

I am a Viet Nam veteran and while in the military we held drills dealing with both chemical and nuclear contamination constantly. Those of you who have never been a part of decontamination don’t realize what is involved. That is why fire departments and military drill on the process constantly. It is more than standing in a plastic wadding pool and being showered by a water hose.
The assistant fire marshal at the time in my city (now retired) asked me to video tape some Hazard Materials drills for the department. There were few changes but for the most part it was the same. The biggest difference is the material that the protective suits are made of. 
Talk to your local fire department about what is involved in decontamination. It might be possible for you to observe their next drill. If so, I promise you will learn mush more than you ever thought
As mentioned earlier wearing as gas mask is extremely uncomfortable. You have to strain to pull air through it. If you think that children will continue to wear it just because you tell them to, well guess what when they get uncomfortable which will be 10 minutes at the most, off comes the gas mask. 
How many gas masks do you own? How long will they last? You will immediately learn that the times stated by the manufacturer and real life time is substantially shorter. 
What do you do when your masks run out? Will the incident be over or will the contamination go on for hours, days or weeks?
If you don’t know how to decontaminate and take you equipment off properly you will contaminate yourself and possibly others. Now how will you properly store or dispose of the contaminated equipment. It can’t be tossed to the curb for the trash man to pick up. He may not be around for days or even weeks.
As also stated what about your surroundings? Chances are your house, bug out villa, other buildings, vehicles, open water sources, possible community water supplies, trees, bushes, flowers or natural growing brush will still be contaminated.
What about the viability of your equipment? There is a reason that it is called military surplus. It is not considered reliable and functional. If they will not use it why would you want to? Was it declared surplus because there were too many or because it is not considered functional and reliable.
So you will buy your equipment at bargain basement “real deal” prices. Again why is it being sold so cheap? Is it in good working order and how reliable is it? Remember, if a deal is too good to be true, then it really isn’t a good deal. Do you really want to stake you and your family’s life on a bargain or something declared surplus.
You say you bought yours from what ever sales from a foreign country. Hey, it must be good they are using them! Is what they are using the same quality as what you get? Did a company screw up with quality control and they know they are defective. I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting on a recall notice. But then again, you may not need to worry holding your breath anymore.
Hazardous materials equipment can if it is the proper type filter out contaminates but it can’t provide the necessary oxygen to survive.
I am not against people using hazardous materials protection equipment. Just like guns, knives, cars, fire, bows and arrows, one needs to know the proper way to use them or they can like guns etc. kill you with improper use
Please if you choose to have this equipment take the time to use it properly so you can survive.


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## Lowdown3 (Oct 28, 2008)

ldmaster said:


> Masks are only effective if they are equipped with the PROPER filter for the environment you are in AND if they give you proper fit. A mask with 80 percent fit you might as well not even wear if it's a truly dangerous environment. MSA sells a kit to help you determine total fit and to improve fit. Mask size is important, too small as well as too large - and some faces just aren't built for a good fit. You owe it to yourself to improve your mask fit, as well as find the appropriate filter for the mask. The M10, M17, Israeli civilian, etc... are all effective, it's the FILTER that you need to concentrate on, since most utilize the same threads, you can get a mask from one source and find a somewhat cheaper filter elsewhere.
> 
> When you THINK you have an effective filter, put yourself in an enclosed space, and pour pure muriatic (pool acid) onto some dry chlorine and stir it. If you find yourself getting a whiff of it - RUN AWAY!!! It wont kill you, but the leakage is unmistakeable.
> 
> ...


Or you can buy banana oil ampules and avoid chemical poisoning from improper use of mask....

And FWIW, I've seen new top of the line masks fail a test just as easy as old surplus masks have.

Lowdown3


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## rainbowgardens (Oct 29, 2008)

I can definately see where a professional fitting would be important for any type of mask or respirator you are counting on to protect you. 
When I was certified to wear a respirator at work to run the paint booth I had to go in to Safety and Compliance to have it fitted. Before I went in, I read the fitting instructions and adjusted mine myself. I thought I had it done right but was surprised it wasn't. They put a plastic bag over my respirator and face,(not airtight,) and sprayed in different chemicals. They had me walk, turn back and forth and talk while wearing it. Sometimes I could taste or smell the chemical. I was sure I had it adjusted right.


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## Backwoods (Oct 27, 2008)

A lot of the gasmasks and other surplus NBC gear is either used or shelf life has expired which means their functionality is in doubt. That could make them at the least.....ineffective.......at the worst dangerous.

IIRC the US M-17 gasmask series used specific filters and general filters and were a bear to change. NBC requires frequent training and practice for proficciency. Not something you want to do on the fly with equipment whose quality is in doubt.

Now for the good part. All the protective gear, no matter how good is useless without a chemical detector, or other positive warning system. Once the alarm is sounded you only have a couple minutes to suit up at best. I have absolutly no faith in the system giving us ample warning either. A home grown chemical attack or accident could happen anywhere anyplace, and we won't know it until we drop. If it happens right on top of you your dead meat....mask or not.

Personally.............. I wouldn't worry too much about a mask. Best thing to do is to head upwind and just get out of the area if something goes down. The contaminated area will not be that big,maybe a few miles and anyone that has spent any time with either a mask or chem suit knows that an extended period in either one is a gloomy prospect at best.............


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

SurvivalNut said:


> Here is an article about building a safe room.
> 
> Homeland Security News » Safe Room


I just figured that I would copy / paste the information here just incase the original link dies off.



> *Sealing A Safe Room*
> 
> Pick a room with few, or if possible, no windows. Higher stories are better because chemical agents sink.
> If possible, pick a room with water, toilet and a phone.
> ...


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## bunkerbob (Sep 29, 2009)

I still have a 1/2 dozen M-17A and A1s, with all the accessories, replacement valves, hoods, filters, the problem with these are that the cheek filters cannot be changed in the field because the mask has to be remove. I now have the MCU-2A/P which can be purchased on ebay and from surplus outfits for around $65 plus shipping. I also have a supplier with in date milspec filters, another one for replacement valves and parts. These can be serviced in the field, do to the filter being screwed on from the outside. They also have full face shields with clear or tinted over cover. The 2A/P has a inside microphone that can be connected to almost any communication radio. The one I like the best in the first responder breathe easy powered mask in center, it takes 3 filters, and I have extra filters and lithium batteries. In the photo you will also see the full hood DuPont Tychem bio suit. Lower right is the MCU mask and left is the M-17 masks.

By the way vanilla extract will also work to test your filters, put on paper towel and hold near them, if you can smell it you either have a poor fitting mask or a bad filter.

The second photo, which you may have seen before is my whole house bio-filter, once windows and doors are sealed it will protect all rooms.


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## allen_idaho (Oct 21, 2009)

I've got a couple of MCU-2P gas masks as well. I've also got a couple sealed sets of ACPG suits with boots and gloves in 3-color desert camo. A box of personnel decontamination kits. And several sealed C-2 canisters for the gas masks. 

All I don't have are some self-injectors (2-pam chloride or atropine) or agent test kits. Although, I wouldn't be too worried about finding out what it is since its not my job anymore. 

I prefer the MCU-2P gas mask over other types because of the large full face plate giving a larger field of view, and the canteen hookup which is very easy to use.


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## bunkerbob (Sep 29, 2009)

allen_idaho said:


> I've got a couple of MCU-2P gas masks as well. I've also got a couple sealed sets of ACPG suits with boots and gloves in 3-color desert camo. A box of personnel decontamination kits. And several sealed C-2 canisters for the gas masks.
> 
> All I don't have are some self-injectors (2-pam chloride or atropine) or agent test kits. Although, I wouldn't be too worried about finding out what it is since its not my job anymore.
> 
> I prefer the MCU-2P gas mask over other types because of the large full face plate giving a larger field of view, and the canteen hookup which is very easy to use.


I've managed to obtain M15A2A detect kits still sealed and a couple of M256 kits, also the detect paper. Its important to get the manuals to operate these correctly. This photo is a document concerning the use of outdated kits.1999118_0000004_0000001.gif I also have the complete list of recalled C2A1 military filters.

If you can get an Epipen, I believe it has basically the same as the injector you mentioned, someone correct me if I'am wrong.

The full suits are for venturing out of the shelter and as you do I have the sealed chem suits in each vehicle with ditto gear.
Let me know if anymore info needed. 
The attached doc didn't work. Link did though.


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## SurvivalNut (Nov 13, 2008)

In my humble opinion,

Protective Masks are effective if not overkill for Biological Weapons or Nuclear Fallout in applied situations.

As far as Chemical scenarios go, when atropine injectors or 256 kits are discussed, then unless you are going to have a complete manned and supervised ventilated shower decontamination station, you are just going to die anyway when a pinhead sized drop from your suit can touch your skin and kill you in short order.

I respect anyone who wants to pursue info or prep for this, but the best survivablity scenario is the same as a nuclear fallout shelter and that is my prep plan.

Venturing outdoors in a chemical situation is simple suicide for a civilian.

I welcome the lighthearted debate to fall on my head over this:dunno:


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## bunkerbob (Sep 29, 2009)

SurvivalNut said:


> In my humble opinion,
> 
> Protective Masks are effective if not overkill for Biological Weapons or Nuclear Fallout in applied situations.
> 
> ...


I appreciate the active debate, if you have seen my previous posts in construction you will see that I also believe that all preparations are neccesary including a shelter. The mask and suit are just for insuarance. I would like to see your shelter prepations, post some photos. My shelter when complete will have a shower between the outside door and the inner armored one. I will be sharing the deteails as completed through photos. My present work inprogress is the design of a scrubber filter inside of the shelter, just about complete, it will mimic the system I have for the house. Also the high pressure 300cuft bottles are just about ready for inner pressurization system.


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## allen_idaho (Oct 21, 2009)

The stuff I have are just leftovers from my military days. One of my many jobs was as a CBR-Defenseman and Outside Monitor. My job was to go into the contaminated area, detect any agent, determine what it is and how much of an area has been contaminated. I was heavily trained to venture outside in these situations.

In my civilian life, I would not do this. I would, however, use this equipment to escape a CBR attack in my area. 

If you inject yourself with Atropine and 2-Pam Chloride, you are going to be down for the count. But you will probably survive. The Atropine is a very powerful stimulant. It will dramatically increase your heart rate and keep your body from absorbing a nerve agent. The 2-Pam Chloride is a very powerful depressant. This is used second, to keep your heart from exploding. But you will be relatively incapacitated, possibly even unconscious. 

You would only use these if you were in a contaminated area and started feeling a twinge in the small of your back. That is the nerve agent taking effect. So you need to inject yourself to keep from breaking your own spine. 

You can also cut yourself out of the suit without the use of a decontamination shower. But the shower helps reduce the risk of contamination. I have done it before. It is possible.


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## SurvivalNut (Nov 13, 2008)

I am not trying to be a know it all, just like the active discussion of pros and cons. As far as the above two posts (and previous concerning the same) I agree with you 100%. 

My advice to not bother would be to one who's experience would be laying money on the table at a surplus store for gear and thinking they were "ready". 

Bunkerbob and allen_idaho, et al, I agree you definitely undertand the benefits and limitations and i appreciate hearing your ideas and concerns.

Your plans are feasible, well thought out and definitely ahead of my own.:beercheer:


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## bunkerbob (Sep 29, 2009)

allen_idaho said:


> The stuff I have are just leftovers from my military days. One of my many jobs was as a CBR-Defenseman and Outside Monitor. My job was to go into the contaminated area, detect any agent, determine what it is and how much of an area has been contaminated. I was heavily trained to venture outside in these situations.
> 
> In my civilian life, I would not do this. I would, however, use this equipment to escape a CBR attack in my area.
> 
> ...


I also agree with you, anything you do must be done with caution. Thanks for the info Allen_Idaho.


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## RodUSMC (May 25, 2012)

Backwoods said:


> A lot of the gasmasks and other surplus NBC gear is either used or shelf life has expired which means their functionality is in doubt. That could make them at the least.....ineffective.......at the worst dangerous.
> NBC requires frequent training and practice for proficciency. Not something you want to do on the fly with equipment whose quality is in doubt.
> 
> Personally.............. I wouldn't worry too much about a mask. Best thing to do is to head upwind and just get out of the area if something goes down. The contaminated area will not be that big,maybe a few miles and anyone that has spent any time with either a mask or chem suit knows that an extended period in either one is a gloomy prospect at best.............


Very well said about training and quality equipment, etc. However, I politely disagree with the idea that a mask is not essential to an overall prep plan. Getting upwind in a real spill scenario will be very difficult in any populated area, as everyone will be trying to do the same, and you are likely to have to abandon your car and move on foot. Having a mask will give you time to do so. In 2005, there was a chlorine gas spill in SC which killed 9 people, and who could forget the Union Carbide spill which killed thousands? If you live within a mile of a railroad crossing, there's a risk. Add to that the risk of a super volcano eruption, pandemic, an accident like in 3 Mile Island, or Chernobyl, or Japan, or the eventual successful terrorist detonation of a nuclear weapon, or full scale war, and you have an ever increasing probability of an event. A mask can protect from volcanic ash, which destroys eye and lung tissue from crystalline silicates. A mask is not foolproof during pandemics, but it will reduce the level of respiratory risk from biologic agents. A mask doesn't protect you from radioactivity directly, but it does keep you from inhaling the radioactive dust, which is far more damaging than than having this dust just land on your skin. I am not 100% convinced that a major earthquake like another New Madrid, or an EMP event, or CME will not result in damage to our aging nuclear power plants. Given the Japanese propensity for preparation, they were the last country people thought a nuclear accident could occur...but it did anyhow.


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