# Final expenses included in "prepping"



## valannb22 (Jan 6, 2012)

How much thought have you guys given to preparing for final/burial expenses? I have a life insurance policy for both me and my husband as well as burial insurance for us and all three of our children. I've been thinking about this a lot for the last week. My cousin died very unexpectedly last weekend of a heart attack. She was 41 years old and leaves behind two daughters 25, and 13. She lived off of disability, had no assets, and no insurance. My grandmother is now stuck with the $5700 bill for the service and cremation. Her 25 yo is now going to have to raise the 13 yo along with her own three kids. They didn't even have the money to rent a Uhaul to clean out their mother's house, so Chad and I had to do that. I went over to help pack up the house, and it was like an episode of Hoarders. Filth and bugs everywhere. She's lived in there for 5+ years and it's a rental. The house is going to need major rehab, and I don't know if the landlord can sue for damages or not, but if it were my home I'd sure want to. Her death leaves the family in a really bad spot. If I didn't already have something set up in case of our deaths, I would certainly do so now. I feel so bad for her daughters. Just something to consider if you haven't already.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

K and I are more concerned with who would care for Roo in the event of our deaths. We'd want my folks to do it but if they had passed or were too old the state of California would give her to K's siblings. This is an issue. Because of the trust set up for Roo's long term care/education his siblings would take Roo in only to get their dirty hands on her money. I'm afraid they'd be abusive because she would just be a burden once the money was wasted.

I have been thinking of my cousins. They have children around Roo's age and I do keep in contact with them. It would be a change for Roo to go from California to New York but my cousins are smart educated women (sisters with their own families) that are not as liberal with the laws as K's siblings. One of them is already the trustee for my and Roo's trusts from my grandmother. So they are versed in handling that by the book.

I am in the process of talking to my cousins about this so we can get a will/trust written up. I know K's siblings would be offended if and when they find out but I don't trust any of them to properly care for my daughter.


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## valannb22 (Jan 6, 2012)

Yes, my youngest sister and her husband are going to take our kids if Chad and I both die. No way would I ever allow either our mother or Chad's family to be in charge of raising my kids.

Another cousin on my mom's side lost custody of her kids for abuse/neglect as well as allowing her boyfriend to spend time alone with them after her then 3yo daughter accused him of sexual abuse. Those kids have been passed around various family members as well as several foster homes. They've been with my parents for about 6 months. The ONLY reason my mom took them in is because she saw dollar signs. She doesn't treat them very well and uses the money intended for their care on herself. Its disgusting.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

valannb22 said:


> ... My grandmother is now stuck with the $5700 bill for the service and cremation. ....


I'm confused. How can the Grandmother be held responsible for the $5,700?


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

valannb22 said:


> Yes, my youngest sister and her husband are going to take our kids if Chad and I both die. No way would I ever allow either our mother or Chad's family to be in charge of raising my kids.
> 
> Another cousin on my mom's side lost custody of her kids for abuse/neglect as well as allowing her boyfriend to spend time alone with them after her then 3yo daughter accused him of sexual abuse. Those kids have been passed around various family members as well as several foster homes. They've been with my parents for about 6 months. The ONLY reason my mom took them in is because she saw dollar signs. She doesn't treat them very well and uses the money intended for their care on herself. Its disgusting.


One of K's sisters has 2 kids as it is. Both kids have different dads and are 6 years apart in age. Her youngest is her current favorite because she is still dating the dad. The older one is neglected and abused because his dad is no longer in the picture. The child support for the older goes to caring for the baby and to buy the baby's dad beer and his truck payments.

Everyone in the family pays for the older ones care, food and clothing. I stopped helping care for the older one when he tried to molest Roo last year during her birthday party. No one was watching the kids play but me and I heard him tell my 2 year old not to tell her mommy and daddy about their secret. I peeked in the play tent and he was handsy with Roo. she was 2 so she had no idea what was going on but I took the play tent away and refused to let him be alone with Roo after that. Who knows what he might try if she lived with them and they were a few years older or even early teens!?

Call me crazy but because they are not truly related (K and his sisters are adopted and there is no blood relation) I fear this kid could act on all the sexual things he has seen or heard from his mom and her many 'dates'.


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## valannb22 (Jan 6, 2012)

TheLazyL said:


> I'm confused. How can the Grandmother be held responsible for the $5,700?


Someone has to pay for the cremation and service. My aunt sponges off of my grandma, and my cousin's older daughter has no money.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

My wife and I each have $100,000 worth of life insurance. That's more than enough for burial and to pay off the mortgage.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

This was definitely in the forefront of our concerns when we started having children. It became an even larger issue when we started to have a lot of children. Our current functional 5 year plan involves my wife and I each having 7 figures worth of life insurance, 25k worth of life insurance on each child, a very clean & clear last will & testament and a living will. If the Mrs. and I both depart this world together, a large amount of money will go into a trust for the care of our children and many of our other assets will be liquidated. My parents will automatically gain proprietorship and will move into my home (they are both retired). We have little debt but we do have will be paid off instantly from our assets. The interest on the principal of the trust should provide for a very comfortable existence and meet all the needs of the children, include college tuition and associated expenses. We have set things up to change as little as possible from the children's lives. Same home, same church, sane schools, same nanny, etc. Our oldest child is now in college and if something happens to my parents or after approx. 5 years from now we pass away, then our oldest child will assume the roll of proprietorship. My oldest sister and my wife's oldest sister will become co-executors of the trust and they will make large financial decisions together. There are a lot more contingencies and specifications than that, but you get the gist. Setting this up was like playing a game of chess against a master class player, but I think we are close to having all of our bases covered as possible.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

This is a good topic. I'd ike to suggest for those who are younger that you purchase a small whole life policy, or if you can afford a small annuity instead, do that. Insurance through your job is termm life and ends with the job. You want something permanent for final expenses that will pay out immediately upon death. You want to get this while young when your health is good and the cost is low.

Also, make sure you have a will and a trustworthy executor.


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## goshengirl (Dec 18, 2010)

Excellent points, val. We just recently buried my dad, so the cost of services strikes a chord for us. When family members are hurting financially, just the cost of services can be quite a burden. Thankfully my parents bought plots in the past year - but at 85 years old, they should have bought plots sooner.

As for hubby and myself, we do have some updating to do when it comes to custodianship of our one remaining minor child, as the sibling/sibling-in-law we had previously listed have both had some severe illnesses (prostate cancer and back problems) this past year, and guardianship of a minor might be too much for them at this point. Thanks for the reminder.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Question-- Are not burial expenses optional? If there is no one to pay doesn't the county bury them in 'potter's field' or where ever? I know this sounds bad but is it not an option?
We had small life insurance policies on or kids that automatically dropped when they turned twenty five. We carry small policies on ourselves to cover any last expenses (hopefully). We have no debt but even a short stay in a hospital even with health insurance can build up some debt pretty fast.


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## valannb22 (Jan 6, 2012)

There probably is, but who is not going to go claim a loved one's body and give them a service? My grandma wouldn't be legally obligated to provide a service, but that's a pretty horrible thing to do IMHO.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

hiwall said:


> Question-- Are not burial expenses optional? If there is no one to pay doesn't the county bury them in 'potter's field' or where ever? I know this sounds bad but is it not an option?
> We had small life insurance policies on or kids that automatically dropped when they turned twenty five. We carry small policies on ourselves to cover any last expenses (hopefully). We have no debt but even a short stay in a hospital even with health insurance can build up some debt pretty fast.


The disposal of the body would not be what you would want and there would still be a charge against any estate. Estates must pay debts before distributing to heirs.

Your kids should now get their own life insurance and do their own planning. You should make sure your kids know your wishes in detail.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

valannb22 said:


> Someone has to pay for the cremation and service. My aunt sponges off of my grandma, and my cousin's older daughter has no money.


I understand now. Your grandmother stepped up and provided for a decent burial.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

We had 7 figures worth of life insurance on hubby, not quiet as much on me but a nice sum nonetheless. When our two grown daughters were minors, in the event of our death the kids would've went to a single mom friend of ours & we wanted to make sure she wouldn't have to worry about money. As we've gotten more financial assets, we have less of a need for insurance. Our son would go to my mother-in-law. 

Both of our fathers have copies of our wills, in addition to copies of our "red book". The red book has detailed information about every asset, account, etc. we own as well as contact information of people we trust to help liquidate some of the assets (like a builder friend to help sell the woodworking machinery, trailers, etc. & a pilot friend who would handle the sale of the plane & hanger). 

There would never be a time I wouldn't have either insurance or assets to cover at least $60,000 on each of my kids. Even when they're grown, I can afford funeral expenses but what if we had to fight her husband for visitation of our grandbaby at some point? To me, money = choices & I like having choices.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

Grimm said:


> K and I are more concerned with who would care for Roo in the event of our deaths. We'd want my folks to do it but if they had passed or were too old the state of California would give her to K's siblings. This is an issue. Because of the trust set up for Roo's long term care/education his siblings would take Roo in only to get their dirty hands on her money. I'm afraid they'd be abusive because she would just be a burden once the money was wasted. ... I am in the process of talking to my cousins about this so we can get a will/trust written up. I know K's siblings would be offended if and when they find out but I don't trust any of them to properly care for my daughter.


This was a bit of concern for me about my daughter. Her dad could have taken care of her, but he died when she was a child.

I would not have wanted ONE of my relatives to have raised her. They would have been more interested in money than anything about her.

And, I believe money was the reason my grandmother insisted we were going to live with her after my mother died. Joke was on her. In those days, and maybe still, you had to pay in x amount for there to be SS benefits. My mother was short less than $3.00 earnings for us to get any benefits. So since there was no income from having us, I was assigned to be head servant at the age of 6 because I was the oldest girl. That would have probably happened, no matter what. Boys were special. They got waited on.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

My wife and myself have discussed this with our lawyer. We found that it is not a big issue. If I die first everything is in both of our names and the wife can do what ever she wants, if she dies first then I have no legal issues. The big problem is the airplane.

For you airplane owners, my aircraft is only in my name and this was an issue, she could not sell the plane. The lawyer said to put the aircraft in both of our names but to do that we would be technically be selling the plane and then buying it back. Here in Nebraska, when that happens then you have to pay sales tax (one time) and the then property tax for the next 5 years. I did the math and it was over $11,000. So I researched what other aircraft owners had done. They printed all the forms off the FAA internet site to sell the aircraft and then filled everything out and got it notarized, but don't mail it. We did this so when I die my wife will just send in the forms and she will be the owner and can sell it.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

tsrwivey said:


> We had 7 figures worth of life insurance on hubby, not quiet as much on me but a nice sum nonetheless. When our two grown daughters were minors, in the event of our death the kids would've went to a single mom friend of ours & we wanted to make sure she wouldn't have to worry about money. As we've gotten more financial assets, we have less of a need for insurance. Our son would go to my mother-in-law.
> 
> Both of our fathers have copies of our wills, in addition to copies of our "red book". The red book has detailed information about every asset, account, etc. we own as well as contact information of people we trust to help liquidate some of the assets (like a builder friend to help sell the woodworking machinery, trailers, etc. & a pilot friend who would handle the sale of the plane & hanger).
> 
> There would never be a time I wouldn't have either insurance or assets to cover at least $60,000 on each of my kids. Even when they're grown, I can afford funeral expenses but what if we had to fight her husband for visitation of our grandbaby at some point? To me, money = choices & I like having choices.


If any of that is whole life rather than term, you could convert it into an annuity adequate to cover your now lower insurance need. The annuity can serve as a retirement asset or still be useful in event of death as it would pay out immediately upon death.


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## Toffee (Mar 13, 2012)

We talked about this yesterday and today, actually. We have 75,000 each in term life and plan to get more as we have kids. We also plan to buy bonds for our kids, so that they can pay a large portion of their college tuition. Plans have been made to talk to two of my husband's sisters once any babies are born about them taking over just in case. We do prefer one over the other, but both are fantastic. None of my family and the rest of my husband's family are either not in a position or place we trust or do not share our values. We will also meet with a lawyer and have papers drawn up specifically covering any foreseeable events.


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## notyermomma (Feb 11, 2014)

This thread reminds me of my grandparents, both pairs. They were polar opposites in how they addressed the inevitable.

My paternal grandparents kind of set the tone with complete denial. They lived in an isolated holler in Appalachia that was hard for the family to get to. We talked with them on the phone a lot, but it wasn't until gf had a massive stroke did we realize that gm was in a state of pretty advanced Alzheimer's. At the age of 87 she refused to discuss making a will ("why would I do that? I feel fine!!") Ultimately the adult kids had to seize power of attorney to put her in a (very swanky) nursing home and write an equitable will. It's a good thing they raised such wonderful functional offspring or the whole situation would have been a nightmare with lots of lawyers and mudslinging. As it was, gm left a full house with one suitcase when she moved to The Home. It was left to her kids to sort through over a century's worth of heirlooms and memories. Tragically because of time and space constraints, 95% of it went into a dumpster. 

My maternal grandparents watched all this unfold and learned the few lessons they didn't already know. They pre-paid final expenses, plots, and the elements they wanted to include in their memorial services. They not only downsized, but moved all the way across the country to be closer to their kids for support. The family has full access to all their legal documents (in fact, my uncle monitors their checking account as a backup because they don't trust computers! ) They have everything in writing - power of attorney, medical advance directives, who inherits which heirlooms. After dealing with the nightmare my other grandparents left behind, we admire and appreciate them all the more for it.

Me? I'm a child of my father. At 41 I haven't even balanced my checkbook in years. I'm not proud of it, and it's one reason I keep coming back to this forum. I'm getting better about this stuff, and you guys keep me honest.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

For about the hundredth time I had a talk with my dad on the phone this afternoon about this topic. I verified that all the important info was still in the safe deposit box that I am listed on (don't have a key but for $150 can have the lock drilled). Like before my folks went to Israel many years ago he told me all about the trust and how it was set up.

I told him I wanted a trustee to help handle the estate so if something happened to me it was there for Roo. 

I also reminded my dad to call my lawyer in NY about my next installment from my grandma's trust and that I did not want a lump of what was remaining of the trust. Installments are preferred.

Good thing everything is set up in trusts that revert to Roo in my death. I don't have to worry about any of the planning part aside from funeral planning.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Grimm said:


> For about the hundredth time I had a talk with my dad on the phone this afternoon about this topic. I verified that all the important info was still in the safe deposit box that I am listed on (don't have a key but for $150 can have the lock drilled). Like before my folks went to Israel many years ago he told me all about the trust and how it was set up.
> 
> I told him I wanted a trustee to help handle the estate so if something happened to me it was there for Roo.
> 
> ...


The safe deposit idea is not good for the will. Legally the bank should not give you access if they are aware of his death even if you are named onn the box. They should only give access to the executor. Establishing who the executor is can be difficult with the will in the box.


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## Genevieve (Sep 21, 2009)

We have insurance on us both and we had it for both the kids. Didn't expect to have to use it for both the kids tho. We figured they'd take over the payments when they got set in their lives. The money paid for both funerals which were not extravagant believe me.

This goes hand in hand when trying to explain to people why you prepare. You have insurance on yourselves, you house and car and other things why wouldn't you have insurance of you being able to survive a disaster of some kind?


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

And PLEASE, ya'll do some research & serious consideration about what you want to happen in the event you are unable to make your own medical decisions. This can happen at any age & without warning due to a car wreck, accident, etc. After you know what you would want, talk in depth with everyone close to you about it, appoint someone to make those decisions, make a living will, & give copies to your doctors & family members. This will be a tremendous help to your loved ones in a very difficult situation & can save them a lot of grief.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

tsrwivey said:


> And PLEASE, ya'll do some research & serious consideration about what you want to happen in the event you are unable to make your own medical decisions. This can happen at any age & without warning due to a car wreck, accident, etc. After you know what you would want, talk in depth with everyone close to you about it, appoint someone to make those decisions, make a living will, & give copies to your doctors & family members. This will be a tremendous help to your loved ones in a very difficult situation & can save them a lot of grief.


Excellent point. Screwups with end of life issues can cause terrible splits between surviving family members.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Geek999 said:


> The safe deposit idea is not good for the will. Legally the bank should not give you access if they are aware of his death even if you are named onn the box. They should only give access to the executor. Establishing who the executor is can be difficult with the will in the box.


There is no will. Everything is in a living trust and the lawyer has a notarized copy and my folks copy is in the box on top of photo copies are in their filing cabinet and the house safe. I am not named on the box but a an owner of the box so I have the right to drill out the lock even if my folks are dead. I know where the keys are but it is possible for me to gain access if I can't find them.

Not to mention I am the executor of the estate. Executor is different than trustee. Executors are only given enough power to gather the estate and dispense it as the will/trust states. In this case I can only give the assets to the trustee to be managed for the beneficiaries. Roo and I are the only beneficiaries. All of this is to protect us from having the estate wasted by others in our name... K wanting to blow it on a new truck for himself etc.

I also need to mention that for a will to be considered valid it needs to be filed at the courthouse before the person dies by their lawyer. Otherwise it can be denied as real after their death and thrown out.


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## dixiemama (Nov 28, 2012)

Your last comment is based on states laws which are different. In KY, a handwritten will is called a holographic will and is valid. A will drawn by an attorney is also valid. They are not filed before a person passes and are not required to be. In fact, the courthouse can only hold it but not put it on record, until they are notified of a persons death. 

We have trusts set up that will be changed once the Littles situation is figured out. As it stands now, I receive a trust for 1 part of my grandfathers estate, mom gets one and sis gets another. All are separate from each other. Bub gets all real (land) and personal (vehicles, money, collections) property. 

Thankfully, all of my grandparents have had last directives. Its saved us lots of stress and aggravation.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

> Originally Posted by *valannb22* Not once has the answer turned out to be magic. Ever.


Sorry to temporarily derail the thread, but I just saw your signature line valannb22 and you are seriously mistaken.

1. What line of work is David Copperfield in? Answer: Magic

2. Are lucky charms fantastically delicious? Answer: Magic

3. How did Obama get re-elected? Answer: Magic

4. What was Michael Johnson the BB player's nickname? Answer: Magic

5. What was the original name for dry erase markers? Answer: Magic

6. What do they call Mike the Stripper in that movie? Answer: Magic

7. What is the name of Orlando's sports team? Answer: Magic

8. What is the name of the magazine for illusionists? Answer: Magic

9. Name of Apple's first multi-touch track pad? Answer: Magic

So as you can see Magic is the answer to a whole lot things.  Back to the topic at hand!


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## GrinnanBarrett (Aug 31, 2012)

We set up with the NEPTUNE SOCIETY to have ourselves cremated paid in advance. The system is set up nationwide so it keeps my bride from having to leave my body beside the road. Big thing for most people is having a will that is written by an attorney so that they don't run into problems later on. I would not recommend the fill in the blanks wills you find on line. You need someone who knows how to keep your wishes from being twisted around due to incorrect wording. 

The more you can avoid probate the better off you are. For financial accounts make you and your spouse JTWRS (Joint Tenants with right of Survivorship) This means in the event of your spouses death the accounts pass straight over to her or him without court action. 

For items you have in your possession like antiques, guns, art work, gold/silver, jewelry, collections of any kind you should have written directions as to who gets what attached to your will. 

Consider placing land holdings in a trust that passes from you and your spouse to children. 

Life Insurance policies need to have both primary and secondary beneficiaries. GB


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

Mom & Dad has paid for their cremation, funeral expenses and cemetery lot in advance.

Everything is is both of their names "and/or".

There are no debts.

Their will splits everything 50-50 between my Sister and I.

I am the Executor of the will. 

When Dad died Mom granted "Power of Attorney" status to my Sister & I on all the accounts.

Sister and my names have been added to the car Title "and/or".

We recent did a Quit Claim (form pulled of the Internet) on the property, adding my Sister & I the "purchasers". 

Sister has never married and has lived with Mom & Dad for the last 15 years, keeping an eye on them and getting them to Doctor's appointment's etc. In appreciation I have verbally given her my half of the house. 

When Mom dies, burial expenses paid. I will close out the bank accounts and give the Sister half (as per parents will), sell the car and give 1/2 the proceeds to my Sister and do a Quit Claim on my half of the house.

In my Sister's will she has left the house to my children (sister has none of her own).

Sister & I are in agreement. 

No probate or government interference will be needed.

My wife and I have a will. 

Upon are deaths everything is to be sold. 10% of the proceeds will go to the church we are members of at the time of our deaths. The remaining 90% to be split equal among our children.

Everything thing we own is in both of our names.

2 life insurance polices. Wife is beneficiary on one and the grown children on the other.

I have managed to recuperate from my earlier government employment to accumulate a nice retirement nest egg.

If I die before my wife, I just hope she sales my guns for what they are worth, not for what I told her I paid for them.


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## Gians (Nov 8, 2012)

GrinnanBarrett said:


> We set up with the NEPTUNE SOCIETY to have ourselves cremated paid in advance. ..........


After seeing what my folks funeral expenses were, wife and I both prepaid for NEPTUNE SOCIETY cremation also.


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## Toffee (Mar 13, 2012)

Gians said:


> After seeing what my folks funeral expenses were, wife and I both prepaid for NEPTUNE SOCIETY cremation also.


What is the Neptune society?


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## AdmiralD7S (Dec 6, 2012)

Toffee said:


> What is the Neptune society?


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neptune_Society_Columbarium

One big urn for human ashes...


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## Ozarker (Jul 29, 2014)

Some tips as to life insurance. 
Burial policies are small and very expensive on a cost per thousand dollars of coverage. Another rip is travel insurance highly unlikely for a claim, but whatever, it can be a couple bucks.

Life insurance is sold, not bought, that's the saying in the industry but not totally true. You'll probably end up with what the agent wants to sell, not what you need

Tricks used, "Don't you love your family Mr. Smith? I know you do and you don't want Sally and the kids to face financial ruin. You said you want your kids to be able to go to college, let's look at that.....A state college, on the average is XXXXXXXX" 
What they will do is come up with costs for your spouse to live the rest of their life or darn near to it and costs of family care, living expenses, an education and slick ones will ask if they should be able to go on vacation or buy new cars every five years and show the cost of living increases.
Then they sell you that amount.

WRONG, just don't buy life insurance from some agent that visits your house!

First, see an accountant, they will be the least costly advisor, you're not looking for insurance advice or estate planning, you're looking first at a number. The number is the "present value" of your expected financial risks, it's not really the cost of a new car ten years from now. 

Have to get real, what's the chance of the spouse getting remarried? IMO, taking care of a spouse isn't making them rich while someone else enjoys the benefits. 

Will the spouse be working? I'm not turning my spouse into a couch potato to watch TV all day and buy new cars, if an adult is capable of earning anything that should be discounted and considered. Same with kids.

Debts become due on some lines of credit, your mortgage does not need to be paid upon death. If current interest rates on your mortgage are 5%, it will probably be very foolish to pay that off, it's not the balance that needs to be insured but that contribution necessary for financing. Homes are sold, they might be leased, they can provide an additional income, so they aren't a total liability. If you can get 8% after taxes on an investment why use the money to payoff a 5% mortgage? Not a good use of money.

Are you married to a business minded level headed type that is good with money or a spender that can't save a dime? An annuity may be a solution, not a lump sum insurance policy. Policies that pay death benefits as an annuity option pay a horrible rate, an accountant can explain the "capitalization rate" of a stream of payments considering alternative investments. It's not rocket science. 

Each day you live your risk of financial losses decreases. Insurance is a poor investment due to the costs of risks assumed by the company. 

An accountant or any finance type can help you get a number that reflects your actual financial risk, in it's present value after considering what your specific needs will be.

Now, start shopping for a policy, you can get a cost per thousand on the phone. Agents may push for that home appointment, I suggest you not let them start with their analysis and sales pitch, tell them you have a financial counselor and all you need is the cost. You can check out the company yourself to be satisfied but really, all life insurance companies have very little risk of default, if one goes belly up another company will buy up those policies. Insurance risks are traded and sold much like mortgages are, any default to the public hurts the entire industry so don't be overly concerned with it being Prudential or Metropolitan or New York Life or Old Tree Top of Texas, they are all regulated. There can be differences on administration and timely payment, none pay the next day!

Find a good agent you can communicate with and who has been around the block. Ask others, the agent is not on the claims side, but in marketing, good ones can influence customer service in claims.

There are various types of policies, let's cut to the chase, you need a small amount of permanent insurance. This is the basic Whole Life policy and there are variations. The other basic type is Term Insurance. Each cover different needs and your types of needs will not be the same. 

I mentioned mortgages, there is mortgage term, it's more expensive actually and provides less coverage, mainly because it's easy to sell, matching up your outstanding balance of you loan to the coverage. Another type is "Decreasing Term" this is the cheapest, the coverage amount decreases annually and evenly over a set term. The term can be one year, 5, 10, 20 or 30years. Look at your debts to be paid off, those that will be and the annual outstanding balances owing over the years. You can then apply a uniform annual decreasing term policy that never decreases less than your outstanding debts, so you're always covered. Now, you may have $185,600 in debts, you can buy $200,000 of coverage, checking the decreasing schedule you can fit a policy as mentioned, the additional coverage is fluff that allows you to continue in your life and business dealings that can cover future activities. 

Decreasing term also covers the risk of having funds for children as they grow older their risk to you is less.

Term won't take you to the grave in old age, term is really for business dealings, for example; a company buys term on the life of an executive to pay costs of replacing them if they die (key man policies) or between two business partners who each have a risk of losing a partner. Your family is like a business. Losing the primary bread winner is the real risk but there is certainly value to the other partner. Those home visit agents will point out the expense of day care, before you know it they'll have you hiring a butler, maid and driver on staff. 

There is "Joint Term" that insures to lives under one policy and should be investigated at least to the amounts of common coverage required. A husband and wife mat have $50K in their initial risks, the primary bread winner may provide support that can be lost and that may be found to be $200K, so, take the joint policy and get the primary earner a separate policy for $150K.

Use Term to insure the bulk of your risks. Some risk amounts may not decrease but remain rather constant over ten to thirty years, for that there is "Level Term". You may decide that you'll always have a car payment, vacation and education expenses may be rater level over a long period so over this earning period of your life you can cover your risks with a Level Term policy. 

But, at retirement you need coverage for final expenses. Term won't generally go past 65, but can in specialized policies and it's not the cheapest. 

Everyone knows insurance costs more as you age, buying a whole life type product early is key. Things happen besides death, like incapacitation, injury or illness, most people now become uninsurable or "rated" to higher cost levels due to smoking or being overweight or high blood pressure. Buy when you're young and healthy.

When you buy, you get a policy feature called "guaranteed insurability" this means that if you buy at some policy amount, you'll be guaranteed to be able to purchase up to an amount equal to that limit, regardless of your health but as being rated at the older age, if you buy initially at 28, you'll have the same premium rating at 54, but you'll pay that rated premium charge then in effect for someone who is 54. 

Usually, a young family say 25ish, needs only term coverage unless they can really afford to buy the permanent type coverage. Your guaranteed insurability can most often be used to buy any type of policy, so when you're eating hotdogs and raising little ones money can be tight, you can buy your additional or change to permanent policies when you're 36 and in a better position to pay that higher premium, and there won't be that much difference between 25 and 36. wait till you get to your mid 40s and 50s and you'll start paying, wait till you in your 60s, you better focus on increasing your assets to pay your own way instead of insuring the matter.

Buy insurance that you can afford and as it becomes affordable. Use policies and policy features to build a life long plan rather than taking some number from that agent at your kitchen table. Ask an accountant to help identify the present value of your needs or someone handy with a finance calculator. Build your family plan like a business, it mat take 2 or 3 types of insurance in different policies. Know why you have each type and the purpose for each.

There is no computer program that identifies individual risks and breaks down specific needs your agent may have a program designed to sell you insurance.

Your agent should be advising on types of insurance, coverage, policy features, insurance claim provisions and staying in the insurance arena instead of holding themselves out as a financial counselor or attorney. Seek appropriate advice! 

You should review your insurance annually, most don't but they should, but at least glance at it every 5 years! A good time to review is after April 15th, on the 16th, you have a good idea where your are financially and your records should be in good form from doing taxes.


Other related points;

Get a Will. Powers of Attorney die with you so don't assume wifey can take care of things easily just because your have a small estate. Don't put life insurance policies in a safe deposit box as lock boxes are locked by your bank upon death and must be opened according to estate settlement laws, momma may not be able to get that policy out in a timely manner, just delaying further any claim. You can have separate boxes, dad puts his policy in moms account and vise versa. Ask your bank about joint accounts and access at death. Use a payment on death option on deposit accounts. When you truck on without a Will you pass intestate and your estate, regardless of size, must be administered by probate courts. With a Will you appoint an Administrator an Executor and successors in the event they can't or don't preform. You really need to know your family when appointing an executor, there are fighting siblings, slighted relatives and you need to know if the task at hand will be something that person can do, it is a big responsibility and often a job that creates friction in a family.....consider a God Parent or good friend or even your accountant if they accept. Also an Administrator or executor is often entitled to compensation in liquidating an estate by law, doesn't mean they have to charge anything but Aunt Edna may be able to, so get that addressed up front in your Will. You may hear that a Will avoids probate, not really true, the Will allows to avoid the process of probate and your Will is still approved by probate allowing your Executor to act. Wills and findings of probate can be contested, check with an attorney if the think you're going to "write someone out of your Will" state laws in Community Property States may address inheritances by law. If you die intestate your estate will be probated and an Administrator appoint, often the Public Administrator is appointed and your estate is charged at a statutory amount of the total value of the estate. Executors administer Wills, Administrators carry out probate requirements. (Trustees administer Trusts).

I read the first page of posts and decided to post, so this may have been covered, it may contradict another post, so, take it for what you might think it's worth, I didn't charge you for it! I have others in the past.


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## Ozarker (Jul 29, 2014)

Tweto said:


> My wife and myself have discussed this with our lawyer. We found that it is not a big issue. If I die first everything is in both of our names and the wife can do what ever she wants, if she dies first then I have no legal issues. The big problem is the airplane.
> 
> For you airplane owners, my aircraft is only in my name and this was an issue, she could not sell the plane. The lawyer said to put the aircraft in both of our names but to do that we would be technically be selling the plane and then buying it back. Here in Nebraska, when that happens then you have to pay sales tax (one time) and the then property tax for the next 5 years. I did the math and it was over $11,000. So I researched what other aircraft owners had done. They printed all the forms off the FAA internet site to sell the aircraft and then filled everything out and got it notarized, but don't mail it. We did this so when I die my wife will just send in the forms and she will be the owner and can sell it.


 Suggest you ask an "Estate Attorney" about transfer of title for estate planning purposes as transfer taxes are generally not applicable to these transfers as there are not sales, your wife still has a marital interest in your estate and check on TODs with the state license folks, transfer on death provisions are generally not sales.


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## Ozarker (Jul 29, 2014)

Grimm said:


> There is no will. Everything is in a living trust and the lawyer has a notarized copy and my folks copy is in the box on top of photo copies are in their filing cabinet and the house safe. I am not named on the box but a an owner of the box so I have the right to drill out the lock even if my folks are dead. I know where the keys are but it is possible for me to gain access if I can't find them.
> 
> Not to mention I am the executor of the estate. Executor is different than trustee. Executors are only given enough power to gather the estate and dispense it as the will/trust states. In this case I can only give the assets to the trustee to be managed for the beneficiaries. Roo and I are the only beneficiaries. All of this is to protect us from having the estate wasted by others in our name... K wanting to blow it on a new truck for himself etc.
> 
> I also need to mention that for a will to be considered valid it needs to be filed at the courthouse before the person dies by their lawyer. Otherwise it can be denied as real after their death and thrown out.


Just to point out, you don't record a Will in public records, that is a private matter and is never made public, you may under state law be required to perfect the Will by filing, that is done with a notice of Will affidavit that simply states the existence of the Will and who may be appointed as the Executor (if a male) Executrix (if a female).

Drilling out a lock box can be rather expensive, I'd suggest giving the keys to an officer of the bank. To open intestate, you'll need an Administrator appointed by probate, an officer of the bank and a witness. With a Will you'll need the approval of the Will from probate showing the approval for the Executor to act, the bank officer and the bank will have a witness. An inventory of the box will be made and the Executor should have a certified copy of the inventory. By "officer" I mean an executive officer, president, vice president, treasurer or secretary (or their appointee) not a loan officer or employee.

Not sure what inter vivos trust you have, but sounds like Roo is the beneficiary, the trustee has investment authority you may have successor trustees, you can generally change trustees if you're having issues of prudence of administration.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Ozarker said:


> Just to point out, you don't record a Will in public records, that is a private matter and is never made public, you may under state law be required to perfect the Will by filing, that is done with a notice of Will affidavit that simply states the existence of the Will and who may be appointed as the Executor (if a male) Executrix (if a female).
> 
> Drilling out a lock box can be rather expensive, I'd suggest giving the keys to an officer of the bank. To open intestate, you'll need an Administrator appointed by probate, an officer of the bank and a witness. With a Will you'll need the approval of the Will from probate showing the approval for the Executor to act, the bank officer and the bank will have a witness. An inventory of the box will be made and the Executor should have a certified copy of the inventory. By "officer" I mean an executive officer, president, vice president, treasurer or secretary (or their appointee) not a loan officer or employee.
> 
> Not sure what inter vivos trust you have, but sounds like Roo is the beneficiary, the trustee has investment authority you may have successor trustees, you can generally change trustees if you're having issues of prudence of administration.


As for the trust, my folks had it set up so the mortgage was paid off upon their death. Since they have now paid the mortgage there was no need for that in the trust. The house is now in the trust and can not be sold until after my death and my youngest child is 45 years old. It does say that the house can be rented out and the trustee is to manage the expenses such as repairs and taxes.

As for drilling the box. I know for a fact the bank the box is in only charges $150. I have spoken to the bank directly as has my dad. We both deal with the lawyers and the trustee as it is right now.

It is hard to remove a trustee if none has been named. My aunt is the executor of my grandma's estate and after 15 years has not named a trustee. I still get my payments but she doesn't want to let go of the bulk of the money. This has been a court battle as I am out of state and all other parties are in NY. We have tried removing her as executor but since the trust was written in Florida no judge in NY wants to deal with this. Grandma died in NY. I share this as a lesson for others with kids living in different states and other family that may be named as a beneficiary.


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## dixiemama (Nov 28, 2012)

Ozarker said:


> Just to point out, you don't record a Will in public records, that is a private matter and is never made public, you may under state law be required to perfect the Will by filing, that is done with a notice of Will affidavit that simply states the existence of the Will and who may be appointed as the Executor (if a male) Executrix (if a female).
> 
> Drilling out a lock box can be rather expensive, I'd suggest giving the keys to an officer of the bank. To open intestate, you'll need an Administrator appointed by probate, an officer of the bank and a witness. With a Will you'll need the approval of the Will from probate showing the approval for the Executor to act, the bank officer and the bank will have a witness. An inventory of the box will be made and the Executor should have a certified copy of the inventory. By "officer" I mean an executive officer, president, vice president, treasurer or secretary (or their appointee) not a loan officer or employee.
> 
> Not sure what inter vivos trust you have, but sounds like Roo is the beneficiary, the trustee has investment authority you may have successor trustees, you can generally change trustees if you're having issues of prudence of administration.


That must be the law in your state, but in Kentucky, I can go to any court house in the state and get a copy of any Will ever filed for a small fee.


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## valannb22 (Jan 6, 2012)

Sentry18 said:


> Sorry to temporarily derail the thread, but I just saw your signature line valannb22 and you are seriously mistaken.
> 
> 1. What line of work is David Copperfield in? Answer: Magic
> 
> ...


That quote is referring to a completely different topic that has been just about beaten to death here, so I'll just leave it at that


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## Ozarker (Jul 29, 2014)

Grimm, $150 is kind of steep for a bank charge, didn't mean astronomical. 15 years is a long time not to carry out the duties of appointing a trustee, that would be a slam dunk for any practicing attorney. I understand if you don't want to rock your Aunt's boat.

Dixie, not saying people don't file Wills, I'm not familiar with KY law, I'm saying you can give notice that you're not required to spill the beans about how your estate is to be liquidated. Some folks may not want the kids to know that they each get ten thousand bucks and the bulk of their $10,000,000.00 estate is going to some minister or the animal shelter. You'll only get copies of those Wills where people filed who had poor representation, not everyone that may have a Will. 

Without looking at the law, the theory behind filing documents of any kind is giving public notice. Specific disclosure as to the nature of a document may not be required, not generally, as disclosure publicly perfects the authenticity of the document and that interest beneficiaries (as to folks who may benefit from the recoding) may have. For example, a deed of trust is recorded to perfect the security interest the lender has, all of the note terms need not be disclosed but only the security agreement. The security agreement is made a part of the note, thus referred to as "note and deed of trust". 

Ask your attorney about filing notice of the Will instead of filling the original Will in its entirety.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Ozarker said:


> Grimm, $150 is kind of steep for a bank charge, didn't mean astronomical. 15 years is a long time not to carry out the duties of appointing a trustee, that would be a slam dunk for any practicing attorney. I understand if you don't want to rock your Aunt's boat.


I have been fighting this for the full 15 years. Good thing my lawyer stopped charging me. He still works the case but doesn't bill me for his time. I think he realizes that this is his fault for not being proactive for this time.

Why it has been so hard to remove her is the trust was written and filed in Florida and New York will not touch it with a 100 foot pole.

The trust accountings every six months show the money is indeed there it's just my aunt has a box full of screws loose with a few studs missing and knows how to play the system. Even her lawyer doesn't want to keep dragging this out.

The reason this is happening is my aunt wanted to screw my dad out of his share of the estate. She didn't realize that while my grandmother listened and wrote my dad out she wrote me in instead. My aunt had no idea and doesn't think I deserve my share seeing as how I am my dad's daughter.


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## dixiemama (Nov 28, 2012)

I deal with those on a daily basis Grimm. I feel for you. 

In Kentucky, if you want the state to recognize that an estate is finalized, the original will, in its entirety has to be filed. You file a Petition to be appointed Executor/trix, notify all the heirs, Judge appoints you, creditors have 6 months to file a claim and if they don't, you can finalize the estate. 

If someone died intestate (no will), basically the same process, except you have to notify next of kin (even if it is only distant cousins), file inheritance taxes, pay claims (if any) then distribute the estate in proportionate shares based on relation. 

Either way, it is HIGHLY recommended that an attorney help with this, laws change frequently and it could/can/does get ugly.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

dixiemama said:


> I deal with those on a daily basis Grimm. I feel for you.
> 
> In Kentucky, if you want the state to recognize that an estate is finalized, the original will, in its entirety has to be filed. You file a Petition to be appointed Executor/trix, notify all the heirs, Judge appoints you, creditors have 6 months to file a claim and if they don't, you can finalize the estate.
> 
> ...


The only reason I am even bothering to pursue my share is for Roo. The trust states my share goes to my children in the event of my death. Seeing as how it is a sizable amount this could provide Roo a very extensive ivy league college education and buy her a home after she graduates. I have to think of her.

My aunt is hoping the money spent to get my share far exceeds the amount I will get.


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## Ozarker (Jul 29, 2014)

I'd say it's time for a come to Jesus meeting with your Aunt and then court.

Considering her conduct the prevailing party probably won't have the costs, she needs that explained to her, she has clearly failed in her duties and becomes personally liable as an executrix/admin. 

Might speak to another attorney, sounds like he is avoiding a trashing in court by a judge.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

This happened to my father-in-law. He has or had 2 sisters and a brother and they were reasonably close, until their father died and his oldest sister became the executor of his estate. Greed turned into, deceit and manipulation, which turned into legal battles, which turned into the end of any relationship they had lef. My father-in-law decided to just walk away early on and told them that they could fight amongst themselves and disgrace their dad's memory without him, he would just go live a happy life. Not one of the siblings has spoken outside of a court room since, no one attends weddings or funerals or acknloedges each other (or their families) in any way. This is why my father-in-law has a will that is as ironclad as the lawyers could get it. His children all had to sign a document agreeing to the terms of the will in advance or be written out of it. Of course they were also raised hearing the tale often and being reminded daily that family is worth more than money.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Remember when I shared that K's father passed last July (2013) without a will? Well his widow (wife of 6 years) ran off with all the assets and claims there were none. The law in California says the estate was to be split into thirds- one to her and the other 2 divided among the 5 kids and 4 grandkids.

No one has even seen the family photos since she skipped town. Not to mention the creditors are calling the other 4 kids about daddy's debt.


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## tc556guy (Apr 28, 2011)

For years I carried essentially 3/4 of a million in insurance between my SGLI and the state NG insurance plans
Once I retired from the Guard I lost the inexpensive SGLI. I turned 50 right around then and the inexpensive NG insurance quadrupled. So I had to trim the total coverage substantially
After my divorce I am required to maintain enough life insurance to pay off the remaining child support balance that I would have paid were I still alive. I added in enough to pay off the house mortgage so the kids could have that free and clear and enough to bury me.
They'll do OK beyond that.


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## cnsper (Sep 20, 2012)

valannb22 said:


> How much thought have you guys given to preparing for final/burial expenses? I have a life insurance policy for both me and my husband as well as burial insurance for us and all three of our children. I've been thinking about this a lot for the last week. My cousin died very unexpectedly last weekend of a heart attack. She was 41 years old and leaves behind two daughters 25, and 13. She lived off of disability, had no assets, and no insurance. My grandmother is now stuck with the $5700 bill for the service and cremation. Her 25 yo is now going to have to raise the 13 yo along with her own three kids. They didn't even have the money to rent a Uhaul to clean out their mother's house, so Chad and I had to do that. I went over to help pack up the house, and it was like an episode of Hoarders. Filth and bugs everywhere. She's lived in there for 5+ years and it's a rental. The house is going to need major rehab, and I don't know if the landlord can sue for damages or not, but if it were my home I'd sure want to. Her death leaves the family in a really bad spot. If I didn't already have something set up in case of our deaths, I would certainly do so now. I feel so bad for her daughters. Just something to consider if you haven't already.


Everyone is in a different situation. For me, divorced and kids out of the house.... I told them not to claim the body or give any instructions what to do with it. They don't need the expense and it is one last thing my so called government can do with my tax money. Besides they will probably tax my kids on whatever I leave to them.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

cnsper said:


> Everyone is in a different situation. For me, divorced and kids out of the house.... I told them not to claim the body or give any instructions what to do with it. They don't need the expense and it is one last thing my so called government can do with my tax money. Besides they will probably tax my kids on whatever I leave to them.


You miss the point of a funeral. It isn't for you. It is for those who care about you.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Geek999 said:


> You miss the point of a funeral. It isn't for you. It is for those who care about you.


So is a wake.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Grimm said:


> So is a wake.


A wake implies a body that is not being disposed of so cavalierly as cnsper implied. Like the funeral the point of some end of life insurance is to cover the expenses of whatever final arrangements you want and that your family wants. (more them than you) In this case cnsper doesn't want much, but his family may want to do more than would be his preference. In his case I believe a small whole life policy, or a small annuity, would fill the bill if his family wanted to do more than what he prefers. If they follow his wishes the money is available to be used in some other fashion.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

I thought there was another thread about wills, but could not pull it up with a search.

I had seen something about "free wills" somewhere a while ago, but found this today.

I know that everyone's situation is different. For me, I want my only child to be my sole heir. I do not want anyone else to get a red cent.

http://www.jbbardot.com/self-relian...testament-inexpensively-and-without-a-lawyer/

I know this does not work for everyone.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Anyone can write their own will for free, but each attorney charges a different fee to review and file it


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## tc556guy (Apr 28, 2011)

weedygarden said:


> I thought there was another thread about wills, but could not pull it up with a search.
> 
> I had seen something about "free wills" somewhere a while ago, but found this today.
> 
> ...


Can't recall if this has been mentioned.
If you're a retired vet you can still avail yourself of JAG for wills and updates at no cost


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