# Outhouse Verbotten



## diane5000 (Oct 22, 2009)

It is now October in Ontario Canada and the temperature is dropping fast.

The rainwater system in our outhouse is pretty much frozen.

We have no indoor plumbing, no running water and no septic system in the old

homestead and we are getting a tinge desperate.

We would welcome any advice out there on how we could makeshift a new biffy.

Diane

From Beyond the Grid | Lliving the green life


----------



## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

I would think that it is a little late to prepare for that before the winter-snows come along.

I did some digging on information regarding outhouses in Ontario (I am in Alberta) and found that you do not need a permit to build it. For the details on construction and the requirements for building it, please peak at this site that I dug-up for you: Cottage Planner Outhouses and Building Codes


----------



## Canadian (Dec 14, 2008)

For the waste you can just bag or bottle it and dump it outside in one spot. It'll freeze solid. In the spring you can burn it. 

Keeping water on hand to drink is easy. I'm not so sure how simple it would be to take showers. Perhaps there's a place nearby or on the way to work that has a shower. I had a friend who got a health club membership. Worked out a bit and showered before work. 

Sounds tough. Good luck!


----------



## northernontario (Oct 29, 2008)

Not exactly sure I understand the problem... i've used plenty of outhouses in the winter... various camps/cabins/wilderness trips. Perhaps what's confusing me is your 'rainwater system'... usually an outhouse just has a toilet seat and a pit. Every once in a while you throw some lime on the pile to help with breaking things down. 

Ideally your outhouse has a DEEP pit.

And you may find that a chunk of blue/pink foamboard, with a hole cut in the center, is much more comfortable in the winter than a toilet seat. The foamboard heats up almost instantly when your bare butt hit it... almost no cold shock. Whereas the toilet seat tends to hold the cold, and makes it very uncomfortable. The foam actually warms up from your body heat, and is quite comfortable.


----------



## TechAdmin (Oct 1, 2008)

Incinerator if you have access to one is great.


----------



## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

You could try a sawdust toilet.

weblife.org: Humanure Handbook: Chapter 8: The Sawdust Toilet


----------



## diane5000 (Oct 22, 2009)

*Our Outhouse is Verbotten!!!!*



dtompsett said:


> Not exactly sure I understand the problem... i've used plenty of outhouses in the winter... various camps/cabins/wilderness trips. Perhaps what's confusing me is your 'rainwater system'... usually an outhouse just has a toilet seat and a pit. Every once in a while you throw some lime on the pile to help with breaking things down.
> 
> Ideally your outhouse has a DEEP pit.
> 
> And you may find that a chunk of blue/pink foamboard, with a hole cut in the center, is much more comfortable in the winter than a toilet seat. The foamboard heats up almost instantly when your bare butt hit it... almost no cold shock. Whereas the toilet seat tends to hold the cold, and makes it very uncomfortable. The foam actually warms up from your body heat, and is quite comfortable.


To clear any confusion...we cannot dig a DEEP hole because of a lot of rock! We have a shallow hole, so to disperse the waste, we have built an outhouse
that uses rainwater. When in use we are quite close to the hole, so we have hooked up a RV bowl to separate us from the dung beetles and the odour. Now that it's winter we need to use a different system, because any water would naturally freeze. If you would like to see this super summer john we have a vidio on our site.

From Beyond the Grid | Lliving the green life

Cheers,
Diane and Warren


----------



## Canadian (Dec 14, 2008)

I can't get your link to work. What is the waste water draining into? Is there a septic system of any kind? If not is it draining into a local body of water such as a pond? I hope it isn't simply getting washed onto the soil. Proper disposal of waste is important. For the winter it will freeze but unless you have a proper sanitary way of disposing of the waste you risk health problems and possible contamination of your soil, local water, and ground water.


----------



## diane5000 (Oct 22, 2009)

*the politics of poop*



Canadian said:


> I can't get your link to work. What is the waste water draining into? Is there a septic system of any kind? If not is it draining into a local body of water such as a pond? I hope it isn't simply getting washed onto the soil. Proper disposal of waste is important. For the winter it will freeze but unless you have a proper sanitary way of disposing of the waste you risk health problems and possible contamination of your soil, local water, and ground water.


The site host was having difficulty, please try again.

This is a benign little system. It uses very little water to function. I'd say we went through about 60 gallons of rainwater all summer. Not much different than going in the bush and letting rainwater wash it into the soil. Compared to a septic system I think this is much more environmentally friendly. Solids from that system are spread on some farmer's field in high concentrations. The outhouse is about a quarter mile from any water and we are a mile into the bush and there are hundreds of acres of forest around us. I don't think our little deposits are going to seriously pollute the regional ecosystems.

I gotta say, it is precisely why we live where we live that we don't have to deal with the bureaucrats telling us where to poop.

Diane and Warren


----------



## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

Canadian said:


> I can't get your link to work. What is the waste water draining into? Is there a septic system of any kind? If not is it draining into a local body of water such as a pond? I hope it isn't simply getting washed onto the soil. Proper disposal of waste is important. For the winter it will freeze but unless you have a proper sanitary way of disposing of the waste you risk health problems and possible contamination of your soil, local water, and ground water.


I was able to get the link to work - some great writeups there!!! :2thumb:

For a temporary fix, you could get a waterless porta-potty which is basically a 5-gallon bucket lined with a heavy-plastic that is placed into a larger bucket that has a lid and a seat to sit on. Purchased from CanadianTire for about $35 it did well enough. Kinda like a Yukon "HoneyPot" that sits in the cold-zone of a house (enclosed, but, unheated porch) and will freeze through-out the winter-time. Dumping it is a scentless process when frozen - in the summer, plug that nose!

Reliance Portable Chemical Toilet | Canadian Tire

I have since upgraded to a "water-filled" upper tank that will wash-down any "cling-ons" into the lower collection "black-water" holding zone. Both styles work well for camping, I don't know if they would be sufficient for use longer than a few weeks. :dunno:


----------



## northernontario (Oct 29, 2008)

I second Naekid... given the limitations on your location (rocky), you might want to look at chemical toilets or composting toilets. My step-mother's small cottage on Georgian Bay has an outhouse, but she and my father added a composting toilet after seeing them at the Cottage Show in Toronto. The outhouse still gets used, but the composting toilet is great for those nights when you don't want to walk to the outhouse... there are a lot of bears in the area. 

I definitely understand rocky conditions. Where I am, near Sudbury, is quite rocky. The crawlspace in the original part of our house has exposed rock in certain areas. The foundation was built right over the rock!


----------



## Canadian (Dec 14, 2008)

Human waste from septic tanks should never be spread on farmland. It can spread human diseases. Only animal waste can be spread on crops safely. Also just "going" in the woods at random without burying the waste is bad. Even wild animals know to bury their waste. 

I'm not concerned about you damaging the environment. Rather I'm concerned that human diseases and bacteria would end up contaminating the area around your camp. 

If a friend if yours comes to visit and has some form of hepatitis and uses your "toilet." His waste will be washed into the area surrounding the toilet area. If you were to then come into contact with dirt (i.e. touching your shoes to take them off) from the surrounding soil you could be contaminated. Many of the diseases are permanent and highly communicable. 

Also simple bacteria can breed in the area around the toilet and cause serious illness. Sanitation is a serious issue. Especially if the waste is exposed and mixed with non moving water. The human bacteria can then be carried back into the home and onto food supplies by flies and other insects. 

I'm not saying you need a full septic system. Just that contamination and illness are possible if the set up isn't sanitary.


----------



## diane5000 (Oct 22, 2009)

*Don't poop on the ground*



Canadian said:


> Human waste from septic tanks should never be spread on farmland. It can spread human diseases. Only animal waste can be spread on crops safely. Also just "going" in the woods at random without burying the waste is bad. Even wild animals know to bury their waste.
> 
> I'm not concerned about you damaging the environment. Rather I'm concerned that human diseases and bacteria would end up contaminating the area around your camp.
> 
> ...


So, if I am reading you right, I should not poop on the ground and I should not let my friends poop on the ground, especially those who are diseased. Well, that's why we have an outhouse, all enclosed including an RV toilet bowl between us and the poop so we don't get any on our shoes.

I'm sorry, just having some fun with it, you are absolutely right, of course. We should all be careful and sanitary about what we do with poop and such.

And although, as you say, poop should not be spread on farmland but there was a case in Ontario not so long ago where truckers were hauling the stuff from Toronto and spreading it on vacant land north of the city. So, it's not right but it happens. My point was that the risks of contamination of our little outhouse pale in comparison to the potential damage done by one trucker who decides that rather than deposit his septic load at a legitimate depot, instead just finds a vacant property and dumps it. How many people know what happens to their septic wastes after it leaves their property in a truck or a pipe?

:flower:
Diane and Warren


----------



## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

diane5000 said:


> [..deleted..]
> My point was that the risks of contamination of our little outhouse pale in comparison to the potential damage done by one trucker who decides that rather than deposit his septic load at a legitimate depot, instead just finds a vacant property and dumps it. How many people know what happens to their septic wastes after it leaves their property in a truck or a pipe?
> 
> :flower:
> Diane and Warren


I used to work for the "village-works-department" of my hometown - collecting garbage, maintaining the parks and checking on the sewage-system. I got to see first-hand what happens with the sewage-system in the pond and how to take care of it all. The processes that needed to be followed in order to allow the final clean-water back into the eco-system was very precise and there was no "human waste" left - just basic compost that was able to be used as such.

For your place being rocky as you describe it, I would say that your best-bet is to tank your waste and have a pumper-truck come by from time to time to pump it out for treatment.

You could use basic chemical-toilet procedures to extend the period of time between pump-truck requirements and you could also use a solar outhouse where the UV light is directed into the holding tank to kill bacteria, use a medium sized solar-panel connected to 12-volt fans to circulate fresh-air through duct-work to remove the moisture content from the holding tank and from time to time use lime to break-down the waste and help turn it into compost which could be used to fertilize non-food-bearing shrubs / bush (like a hedge).


----------



## zorro (May 6, 2009)

NaeKid said:


> ...you could also use a solar outhouse where the UV light is directed into the holding tank to kill bacteria, use a medium sized solar-panel connected to 12-volt fans to circulate fresh-air through duct-work to remove the moisture content from the holding tank and from time to time use lime to break-down the waste and help turn it into compost which could be used to fertilize non-food-bearing shrubs / bush (like a hedge).


I own an old house, also built directly on the rock. There is 2 feet of crawling space, and it is directly on the rock, no soil at all. My neighbor is the son of the builder. His father died shortly after digging the shallow well (by hand) in the rock (not drilling it, digging it, it's about 10 feet deep X 10 feet X 8 feet). I am concerned about the well becoming contaminated by greywater and poop.

Nobody can tell me what is the water treatment system, and my neighbor (and other elder people around here) says most probably it's a two-stage: two cavities in the ground at a given distance, with a horizontal pipe linking the top of the two cavities. But nobody knows where it is located. I start having an idea because two spots of lawn are starting to "recess". But I have no idea if the cavities are just soil, or lined in any way. I'm also concerned about that system becoming "full" at some point (seems to be really big cavities according to the two spots, but more than 90 years operating...).

So I am seriously thinking composting the toilet content and treating greywater. I have looked to buy a commercial composting toilet, but I feel like the price is way too high. I tough building one myself but was concerned about bacteria in the final product. I like NaeKid idea. It's winter here (5 feet of snow already), but this spring I will build something and post the results here.


----------



## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

zorro said:


> So I am seriously thinking composting the toilet content and treating greywater. I have looked to buy a commercial composting toilet, but I feel like the price is way too high. I tough building one myself but was concerned about bacteria in the final product. I like NaeKid idea. It's winter here (5 feet of snow already), but this spring I will build something and post the results here.


zorro,

Attached is a basic-picture showing how the system works. You can have multiple stacks (shown is just one) where fresh-air is brought into the tank and stacks as exhaust. The solar-panel could run direct to the 12-volt fans if you wish, could be hooked to a battery-timer, could be hooked to a pressure-switch (sit-down and the fans kick-on) and then using a "sun-tube" direct the UV-light into the holding-tank.



COMPOST TOILET SYSTEMS said:


> This company has devised a great unit for more constant use than the occasional weekend vacationer. Installed in many parks these units are suitable for public needs, and really don't cost that much. CTS builds composting aerobic digesters that digest up to 90% of everything that goes in. Seen in the picture, the upper building (a two-holer) is provided by you, the user, and the composting tank is installed under the floor. It has only 2 moving parts. The fan and the toilet seat. When the sealed toilet seat is opened for use, air is let into the tank and forces all the vapors from the tank out the vent stack. For proper operation, the toilet lids need to be kept down and sealed. Non-electric models with extra high capacity run about $1,200.00. Electric models are slightly higher at around $1,700.00. These models have no bad odors at all. They can be powered by solar panels (as seen above, right) or plugged into your off-grid systems. Venting is standard 8" PVC plumbing.
> 
> The access panel on the lower front end of the tank is to clean out the fertile organic humus, similar to garden soil, that is the end product of the digested waste. It has no objectionable odor and is easily removed.


Hope this helps you in your quest for more information.

PS. You can combine the technology of a solar-still with the solar-outhouse and get water quickly that could be used to water your garden instead of just venting the moisture directly to the air.


----------



## zorro (May 6, 2009)

*What I finally did*

Hello guys! We finally decided what to do after reading this enlightening book : 
The humanure handbook from Joseph Jenkins. 
Here is the solution he suggests and we choosen : 

First, build a compost bin
Second, put a good layer of straw in it's bottom
Get a truckload of wood sawdust (without chemicals in it)
Get a couple of plastic buckets
Build a wooden box with a hole which your bucket fits into
Put some sawdust in the bucket and shit
When the bucket is full, empty it in your compost bin
Always put some stuff (straw, soil or any vegetable matter) on the compost pile
Always put some sawdust after you shit in the bucket
When the compost bin is full, build a second one and let the first one "cook" another year
A 4 x 4 x 4 compost bin is supposed to be enough to collect a year of shit for a 4 persons household

That's that easy! Then, after two years of "cooking" your compost is ready to be used in your garden. If you don't believe it, GO GET A COPY OF THAT BOOK. This must be the best kept secret in the world!


----------



## GroovyMike (Feb 25, 2010)

Our outhouse is not for daily use, but when needed everyone just puts scoop of wood ash on top. Seems to work fine. When the pit gets full, dig a new pit and pull the outhouse (bulit on skids) to the new hole. Cover the nearly full pit with ash and earth and you are good for another couple of years.


----------



## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

We've lived on our land for 7 years and all we have in an outhouse. We dug a new hole when we first moved here and moved the outhouse over it. About 3 years ago we dug another new hole and moved the building. Now most of the kids have reached adulthood and moved out, so it's not filling as fast.

We leave the door open when no one is in it. (It faces a direction where it's not an eyesore!) That keeps it aired out, in addition to the vents. It also lets us know at a glance if it's occupied. Another plus is that it keeps mice and packrats from setting up housekeeping, though around here people keep their toilet paper in mouse-proof containers (metal cans, usually).

Since most people in our neighborhood have and use their outhouses, we all decorate them nicely, paint them a light, cheerful color, hang pictures (humorous, if possible!), and keep entertainment there. One friend has an etch-a-sketch in their outhouse!

The top couple feet of our ground is rocky, and under that it's a gravely clay. Our hole is 5' deep. My husband has talked about doing the double-chamber style of outhouse where one side is composting while you use the other. By the time the other side is full, the composting side is ready to be cleaned out and distributed.

Milwaukee, Wisconsin has (or had, back in the '80s) a product called "Milorganite", and it's composted human waste, bagged and sold at garden centers such as Stein's. I don't remember if they had a warning on it about whether it could be used on food-producing ground, or just flowers.


----------



## zorro (May 6, 2009)

*more precision*

Well, I'm not going for the "outhouse" option for 2 reasons : 
1) As here it goes below -20 Celcius very often during winter (-4 Fahrenheit), an outhouse would literally be a pain in the ass. 
2) It is forbidden by law here, because of the risk to pollute underground water. As I get my water from a well (its a shallow one, only about 10 feet deep), I'm very aware of the risk of polluting drinking water.

We're going to put that toilet inside the house, at the exact place where the traditional toilet was. Many people (on another forum) who do humanure composting for years told me that if you put a good amount of wood sawdust on feces (and urine) then it's not supposed to smell. However, you need to insist on the "good amount", which is supposed to be enough so to create a barrier. In other word, after each visit to the toilet, you need to completely cover your thing with sawdust. So this solution works only if you're able to get a lot of sawdust (which is feasible here as there are a lot of sawmills around).

By composting the content of the pail, instead of just letting the thing rot in a hole in the ground, we will get a useful by product (compost, which will be very useful as our ground is not very good to grow stuff), and we won't risk to pollute our well.


----------



## Emerald (Jun 14, 2010)

zorro said:


> Well, I'm not going for the "outhouse" option for 2 reasons :
> 1) As here it goes below -20 Celcius very often during winter (-4 Fahrenheit), an outhouse would literally be a pain in the ass.
> 2) It is forbidden by law here, because of the risk to pollute underground water. As I get my water from a well (its a shallow one, only about 10 feet deep), I'm very aware of the risk of polluting drinking water.
> 
> ...


Not to poke fun, but you feel okay saying "ass" but not "poop" aka thing?  gave me a good chuckle this afternoon!


----------



## earthorca (Feb 3, 2010)

I've heard alot about composting toilets, howeverthere is one called Incinolet that runs about 2k and allgedly burns the waste into ash. Sounds like a good idea but was wondering if anyone had any experience with the product.

I know you would have to have elec. but hopefully you could use your solar to run the thing.

Any clues?


----------



## zorro (May 6, 2009)

I don't have any experience with burning toilets, however that would be a shame to burn such good organic fertilizer. Unless you have no choice to do it because of a stupid inspector... You should really read this : weblife.org: Humanure Handbook: Contents or purchase this book The Humanure Handbook - Center of the Humanure Universe. 
By the way the author of this book provides free copies for stupid inspectors.

Another link Humanure: Journey to Forever organic garden

No energy is required for composting humanure - other than human muscles.


----------



## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

zorro said:


> Another link Humanure: Journey to Forever organic garden


This is a great site! I've printed a lot of information from it. I think everyone hear should have it bookmarked. 

Here's a link to the table of contents


----------



## mdprepper (Jan 22, 2010)

This thread had me reading the links on Humanure. 

Unfortunately, my Husband asked me what I was reading and I told him. He really thinks I have lost my mind.:nuts: 

He is a heavy equipment operator, and for the last 15 years he has worked for utility companies replacing water and sewer lines. He, of all people, should realize how fragile the infrastructure is and should be glad I have a back up plan.

Next time he asks, I'm going to just tell him I am reading about composting or gardening!:flower:

I was very surprised to find that human waste can be useful. I had always thought, assumed and/or heard that human waste would be toxic/harmful to use on food for human consumption.

I love Prepared Society I always learn something new and useful!:kiss:


----------



## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

Well...after all these years, we're going to have an indoor toilet! We bought a composting toilet and plan to get it installed before winter! Some friends had bought it to put in their off-grid home and then changed their minds and put in a septic tank and "real" toilet instead. They sold us the composting toilet, still brand-new and never installed, for half price! It came from Sancor Industries in Ontario, Canada. 

I imagine we'll still use the outhouse in good weather, but it'll be nice to have an indoor option for below-zero and stormy days.

And we'll get a usable product from the "compost".

It's a whole new experience for us, learning how to manage a composting toilet system. It's hard to find real-life anecdotal information about day-to-day life with a composting toilet system.


----------



## Emerald (Jun 14, 2010)

gypsysue said:


> Well...after all these years, we're going to have an indoor toilet! We bought a composting toilet and plan to get it installed before winter! Some friends had bought it to put in their off-grid home and then changed their minds and put in a septic tank and "real" toilet instead. They sold us the composting toilet, still brand-new and never installed, for half price! It came from Sancor Industries in Ontario, Canada.
> 
> I imagine we'll still use the outhouse in good weather, but it'll be nice to have an indoor option for below-zero and stormy days.
> 
> ...


After spending most of my summers at the "cabin" that our family owned when younger, having a composting loo in the cabin would have saved me the "grab the flashlight, put on the shoes" in the dead of night, many times! Plus I think that the more you use them the more "lively and working" they are. The only thing I can truly remember about them is that you can not use any cleanser in cleaning them other than water and "baking soda"? Or was it vinegar:scratch.. If I can remember where I read it I will post a link for you. I am hoping that it will be online and not the extensive book/magazine library that I have.

ETA:I just went to Mother Earth News as I have been a subscriber for over 20 years and sure enuf there are several good articles about composting loo's-- just go there and search composting toilets and it will bring up a few pages worth.


----------

