# Question for Vegans...or those who tolerate them...



## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

If Vegans don't eat meat, don't want to eat meat, why do they have meat-like products and items designed to simulate and/or taste like meat?

I'm not being facetious...I'm thinking that is strange. It's like folks who decide to stop eating bacon and pork sausage, then get some horrible imitation of bacon or chicken patties rather than simply move to steak and eggs.

In my faith we're pretty much allowed to eat whatever God provided, it's not like an entire real religion will fall apart because some adherent gobbled a breakfast link, but if there was something I'm not supposed to eat, I don't want some substitute for what I'm not supposed to eat. I don't want to smoke pot, don't have a desire to do so, and I don't rush out to find something to smoke that's like pot. If I didn't drink, I'd not want some near beer...so why do people who decide they're forbidden from eating something simulate?


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

Interesting question and I've often wondered that myself but does it have anything to do with survival or preparing?


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

SNT, that's a good point! I suppose people who are new to the beliefs need something resembling "normalcy" for themselves? Also, there are people who develop health problems and have to stop eating certain foods, and maybe it helps them stick to their new diet rather than a sudden switch to new foods. Some people embrace the new diet and enjoy the new tastes, but I've known some who felt victimized by having to eat different, and "fake" meat helps.

My sister-in-law was diagnosed with diabetes, high blood pressure, and high cholesteral last year. So she, among other changes, started buying turkey bacon instead of pork bacon. When I visited, she cooked up a whole pack and divided it among my brother, me, and her. Egads, the stuff was awful. Dry and tasteless. I'd have rather had two slices of good, delicious pork bacon on fewer occasions than to sit down to 5 or 6 slices of that turkey bacon as often as they do!

If I feel the need to cut back to maintain health, I do, but I also enjoy at least a couple bits of what I really want to eat. I switched to buying bags of the mini candy bars, because I'm happy with a bite or two of chocolate and don't need the temptation of a whole, full-sized candy bar to consume!


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

mosquitomountainman said:


> Interesting question and I've often wondered that myself but does it have anything to do with survival or preparing?


This is under "General Food and Foraging Discussion" and by extension, a survivalist might be exploring other food areas to see if there are some other options but learning about others helps me learn about myself.

I wonder if there's something that in inate in us that we prefer to eat things that are familiar. I wonder if there's some sort of protein nuggets or other item that we generally don't eat, or food in some form that can be stored. NASA and the Europeans have toothpaste tube like food storage and serving items. A neat one was a smoked fish paste that actually wasn't bad. Not something that would take the American market by storm, but useful and clever.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

What we eat seems to be derived from culture. If someone set a bunch of chicken feet in front of me I'd probably puke. Many Asians would have no problem eating them. (And I'd have no problem letting them have my share.)


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

mosquitomountainman said:


> What we eat seems to be derived from culture. If someone set a bunch of chicken feet in front of me I'd probably puke. Many Asians would have no problem eating them. (And I'd have no problem letting them have my share.)


... and I am a white-guy who has no problems eating chicken-feet or chocolate covered maggots or giant squirmy worms or ... but I do draw the line at eating some kinds of vegitables as I have found that most veggies and I do not get along very well.


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

My sons brother in law is a vegitarian, raisin his kid ta be one to. So at my sons ship out party, this 6 year old is tellin me an everbody else eatin the pulled pork I brought how bad that meat is fer us. Finally told the kid ta go eat his damn vegi burger an leave me alone!

If it's gotta look like the real thing eat the real thing. 

I can see if there be health issues, but if ya just wanna be a vegie, leave my real meat outa it.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

NaeKid said:


> ... and I am a white-guy who has no problems eating chicken-feet or chocolate covered maggots or giant squirmy worms or ... but I do draw the line at eating some kinds of vegitables as I have found that most veggies and I do not get along very well.


I like most veggies grown at home. Once you get used to the home grown stuff the store bought varieties fall kind of short.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

OldCootHillbilly said:


> My sons brother in law is a vegitarian, raisin his kid ta be one to. So at my sons ship out party, this 6 year old is tellin me an everbody else eatin the pulled pork I brought how bad that meat is fer us. Finally told the kid ta go eat his damn vegi burger an leave me alone!
> 
> If it's gotta look like the real thing eat the real thing.
> 
> I can see if there be health issues, but if ya just wanna be a vegie, leave my real meat outa it.


We have some neighbors who are vegans. They don't make a fuss over anyone else eating meat so we get along just fine.


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

Hey if folks wanna be meat free, knock yerself out, I ain't complainin. I just don't wan't no 6 year old tellin me what be good fer me er not. He ain't sure how ta pee in the toilet right yet.

Kid keeps buggin me, might find himself on a spit in the smoker!

I got a nieghbor what kept turnin me inta the fire dept. cause I'd run my smoker on the weekend. Nothin they can do bout it.

After the second time I had a bunch a food leftover from a caterin job so I took it all down ta the fire dept. Made a bunch a good friends that day! The next time she called em, they stopped by, "hey yer the guy that brought all the bbq"! Yep that be me. They told the cop ta tell her if she called it in again they was gonna have her arrested fer filin false reports. Ain't had no trouble sense.

I also know folks who er vegie's that let it alone. Were perty good friends. They do there thing an I do mine. Way the world should be. Shouldn't shove our ways er beliefs down nobody elses throats.

I've had the vegie burgers an such. Just don't do much fer me. I guess if I had ta eat em I would. Look out rats, rat burgers ta the rescue!


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

That child is going to be in for a wonderful surprise when he eats his first ribeye or some wings!

Simply tell him, don't knock it until you try it. Unfortunately, if he does like meat, his confidence in his parents and what they've told him about life will be compromised.

For developing children, a vegan lifestyle is unhealthy. It's not easy to properly set a vegan menu because of the severe restrictions and a lot of vegans aren't exactly dieticians. I know that parents have a right to raise their children, but few vegans do it correctly for themselves. I guess I must accept that deterimental lifestyles do exist, just as there are children in crack houses and subject to forms of abuse.

This is a sidebar, but it was mentioned:

Untitled

_Other veganism concerns involve pregnant and lactating women and children. Pregnancy is a time when a woman must increase the amount of nutritional needs not only for herself, but also for her fetus. During her pregnancy, a woman must consume a higher recommendation of vitamins and minerals than usual. A series of studies [2,3] at the Farm, a community where vegan diets are part of a socially responsible lifestyle, have shown that vegans can have healthy pregnancies and that infants and children can safely follow a vegan diet (The EnviroLink Network). In contradiction to these studies, many physicians have found vitamin deficiencies in not only the mothers, but their infants which suffer from various disorders. Because vegan mothers believe that their breast milk is best for their infant, these children suffer the risk of inadequate nutrients from their diet. "Sklar's laboratory data of a vegan mother's lethargic infant (1986) revealed macrocytic anemia and methylmalonic acid in the urine, consistent with vitamin B12 deficient anemia." Another study performed at University Children's Hospital Basel in Switzerland (1991) showed the effects of a vegan mother's breast-fed infant. The infant suffered from dystrophy, weakness, muscular atrophy, loss of tendon reflexes, psychomotor regression, and haematological abnormalities resulting from low concentrations of vitamin B12 in the infant and mother. These potential disorders in the infants of vegan mothers should be a concern for future pregnancies and proper supplements should be taken.

Another growing concern is the number of vegan children. While there are many concerns with children, diet must be a primary one. Making sure that children obtain enough of the nutritional vitamins and minerals that they need for growth and development is essential. Many studies concerning vegan children have shown potential obstacles that can be resolved.. Problems that have occurred with vegan diets include "limited volumetric capacity of the stomach of infants, toddlers, and preschoolers; low-caloric-density foods eaten by vegans; limited food choices; and restriction of number of meals and snacks eaten by vegan children (Truesdell and Acosta, 1985)." Parents must take extra care when raising a child in a vegan lifestyle to ensure that they are following a healthy diet. If these pitfalls are avoided and supplementation provided, children can safely follow a vegan diet and maintain normal growth and developmental standards._

But back on topic, I still wonder why they shape it like meat. I think more of us might be willing to try more dishes if they simply made them like some of the Asian dishes, as the end product themselves, not a poor imitation. I'm checking out some vegan recipes, and it's interesting. One site showed the turkey replacement and the items use, it looked like a combination of healthful pill bottles and supplement jugs instead of 'food' but I guess much of that is shelf stable.


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

an analysis from a *former* vegan's viewpoint:

Work


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

I especially liked the part on the Vegans ACTUALLY supporting the notion of seperating predators and prey in Africa and them not understanding about the overpopulation of grazers without predation and that the predators can't suddenly turn to eating grass!

This reminds me of the fiasco over a hundred years ago at Yellowstone where they killed the wolves because they were mean to the deer and what happened with the dying off of deer from starvation. (Samething happened here more recently with Elk due to hunting restrictions.)

The answer to my question is there. The reason Vegans develop meat shaped replacement items is because many of them aren't too bright and they've not thought things out...this isn't about all Vegans, it's about some who haven't thought it out.


However, that doesn't mean that some worthwhile food items haven't been developed.


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## goose (Jun 12, 2010)

You ask this question as if Vegans are some sort of religion or community, as if they are all in cahoots, and as if they all believe the same thing. Were you just looking for some group to denigrate, and Vegans happened to be in the crosshairs?

Why do you care what Vegans do? I have little time for supposed people of "faith" who will look at others and try to find ways to belittle their beliefs, when those beliefs and behaviors harm no one. 

Sheesh. 

The meatless meats exist for those who might try vegan and want the same textures and mouth-feel as meat, or who might want to make traditional recipes that look like traditional recipes. There are other reasons as well. What I know for certain is that to lump all Vegans together as if they all believe the same thing is no different than lumping together all African Americans, or Latinos, or Kentuckians, or Appalachians, or Irish, or even People From Seattle.

And FWIW, I eat meat. All kinds. What I don't care for is intolerance.


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

Actually, to be a Vegan, in that context is to follow a shared practice, so it'd definitely a self selected _grouping_ and it is an identity for most. Why are you jumping in like that when you admit you don't have a dog in that fight?

geez!

_The meatless meats exist for those who might try vegan and want the same textures and mouth-feel as meat, or who might want to make traditional recipes that look like traditional recipes. There are other reasons as well. _

The underlined part is precisely what I'm wondering about! What are those reasons? Are there practical considerations a person who is using TVP should be aware of?

*Back on topic. *

I'm wondering why the meat simulation. Does it make it easier to transition? I've a lot of TVP in different forms. Some of it is flavored like meat, but some of it is merely TVP. Is it better to present it as a meat or can it be in an unfamiliar form, be accepted? It'd take a lot of production using the material, heat and effort to find out and that's the hard way. Knowing would save resources.


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## sailaway (Mar 12, 2009)

I've wondered the same thing, where would you find TOFU in the wild? or an immmitation cow or pig? If I can't have a real cow, pig or fish, I would rather have a Gummi Fish, Worm or Rat.

Who needs real food anymore anyways, you can get what ever you need for your diet in the form of a potato chip. I just ate a bag of quessodia ones.


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

Oh, TVP is textured veggie protein, it's made from soy and it's considered a good meat substitute because it stores for a long, long time, it's cheap, generally packaged in shelf stable forms and supposedly stuff can be done with it. As I try to find out more on how to use it, I keep seeing that the Vegans turn it into meat like products. I'm wondering if there's a social or psychological reason for it. The heaviest individual users of TVP are vegans. Some institutions and schools slip TVP into their menu supposedly for health reasons, but actually for economical reasons.

With dry soy beans, they store well, but take additional prep time over most other beans.

I'm not overly fond of TVP and soy beans, but this is one option that stretches my prep dollars. While I have some meat based #10 cans, they cost up to 6 times as much as TVP so I need to learn to accept the spongy or gritty slop. Some will say you can fool people into believing TVP is meat, and you can, they just wonder what's wrong with the 'meat' or later have an aversion to the same dish. Others can eat anything.

The advantage of knowing about these things is it's every expensive to store long-term storage food containing meat and this has to be a supplement.

I don't know where I got them, but I once bought egg rolls, 'pork flavored'. We ate them, they seemed OK to eat, but for some reason they didn't do it. The remainder languished in the freezer. We even stopped eating egg rolls for a while...then I checked the box and found the egg rolls contained TVP, not meat. So that got me realizing how much of a problem this might be. Better than nothing, but worth learning more about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textured_vegetable_protein

With TVP you can fill that protein need inexpensively.

http://vegetarian.about.com/od/glossary/g/TVP.htm


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## iouJC (Nov 20, 2010)

Maybe I can shed some light on this topic.....I was a vegatarian for 7 years. This was not for health issues or because of animal rights reasons, but was purely economic. At that time, my first husband and I were in college and we were barely scraping by financially. This was with his GI Bill, my scholarships and my working part-time. He was more into the animal rights part of it, I just saw the price of meat in the store and knew we couldn't afford it!
We were what is called ovo-lacto vegatarians, meaning we ate eggs and dairy products. Eggs, milk and cheese were still fairly cheap back then. 
I think the reason simulated "meat-looking" products are used, is most vegetarians really CRAVE meat. 
I know I did....I gained 40 pounds in those 7 years, mainly because I had a "hunger" that was not satisfied. This was during a time when I was getting PLENTY of exercise....rode my bike the 7 miles to and from college, to work, which was 15 miles round trip, and did all of my shopping and laundry using a 10 speed bike. I just CRAVED protein, and was literally addicted to peanut butter, eggs and cheese! 
The experience was not a total waste however, I learned a great deal about combining foods to create "complete proteins" and this will be very useful if the right financial and economic conditions occur again in which I must forgo the inclusion of meat in my diet. 
The way it ended, my first husband got really deep into animal rights and I started eating meat again when we could afford it.....needless to say, he was outraged and pretty much the relationship was over by then anyway, so we parted our paths and life continued.
But yes, I think the "artifical meat" is because vegetarians really want the entree of meat and are looking for a substitute. I know my health improved tremendously when I started eating meat again and I lost all that "carbohydrate fat" that I was carrying around.


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## twiggie (Jan 3, 2009)

I had some friends that were really into the veg lifestyle a few years back that I invited to a barbecue. I let them know that I would be willing to help prepare whatever they would like for dinner, seeing as how they probably wouldn't have any of the smoked brisket. They showed up with a pack of veggie based "hot dogs" so they would more or less blend in with the traditional barbecue foods. 
They ate them to fit in, maybe others do also. I can also see how it would help someone adjust to a veg based diet if they had to stop eating meat.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

iouJC said:


> Maybe I can shed some light on this topic.....I was a vegatarian for 7 years. This was not for health issues or because of animal rights reasons, but was purely economic. At that time, my first husband and I were in college and we were barely scraping by financially. This was with his GI Bill, my scholarships and my working part-time. He was more into the animal rights part of it, I just saw the price of meat in the store and knew we couldn't afford it!


When I was in tech-school, I couldn't afford vegitables, meat was more filling and cheaper than fresh vegies. I could make a meal out of liver and bacon for half the price of making a meal out of lettuce and bell-peppers (especially out of season like it is 3/4's of the year around here). I also was riding bicycle and needed to wear size 38 waisted pants just so that I could fit my calf-muscles through the thigh-section of the jeans. I used a rope to pull the 38" waist-section down to 30" so that they would stay up on me.

Now, I have troubles eating more than just a little bit of vegies - my diet is probably 75% meat and the other 25% is shared between breads and vegies. Not healthy (by food-standards) but I feel healthier this way.


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