# Underground Shelter



## michigan98gt

Hello all...first time here and am just starting to poke around at the idea of building an underground shelter. 

I currently have a nice little log cabin tucked away in the woods with a fresh, spring fed stream running behind it. Sits on 40 acres with thousands of acres of state land behind it. The stream runs through a pretty steep valley sitting about 15ft below the cabin. It serves as a nice hunting cabin but I am looking into building something more secure for my family in case things ever take a turn for the worse. 

I would love to get some advice on where/what to look for to get this built. Here are some thoughts:

Electric supplied by the stream...figured it has a 8ft. head (of pressure?)
Fresh water by way of a well.
Space for my family (wife, 4 kids, and room for a few others)
Ample storage for food, supplies, etc. 
Radiation resistant
Fully secured against intruders
Air filtration
Off the grid living basically 

Above all else, I want this to be almost 100% hidden from the outside world and able to support us for at least 1 year. I would like to budget around $50,000 or so accomplish all this. 

Any help would be great! Thanks!


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## Canadian

Use concrete and build the bunker into the side of a little hill. Plain old dirt stops radiation if it is thick enough. The hillside should do the job. Make it comfy as you might be in there for a while.


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## Tex

A concrete dome house can be buried. This is a good example, even though he wants a fortune for it and the interior decoration is way over the top. It's a very nice house, complete with shop, stock tank, and pastures. You could plant your garden on your roof. Even a small one would bust your budget though, especially if you include power generation and well.

For Sale: Luxury Underground Monolithic Dome Home


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## Canadian

The concrete dome decor is horrible!


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## jebrown

If you want complete protection from outside contamination of any kind, have a look at Utah Shelters System.
www.disastershelters.net


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## Expeditioner

Another thought (kind of crazy but the science is sound).....neutron radiation is shielded by water and poly-based materials (I used to work in the nuke industry). Poly water containers can be used for this purpose, and it will give you a backup water supply as well.


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## TechAdmin

What kind of terrain is it? Solid rock under the top soil?


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## oraltool

I live in a large town the size of 250,000. i live in a residential area. i don't have land to dig up and drop in a shelter. has anyone done the thing where you cut a hole in your basement and start digging a shelter right friom your basement. taking out dirt one 5 gallon bucket at a time? Sounds nutty but it could be done. Has anyone done this? My wife would think I had lost it.


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## northernontario

oraltool said:


> I live in a large town the size of 250,000. i live in a residential area. i don't have land to dig up and drop in a shelter. has anyone done the thing where you cut a hole in your basement and start digging a shelter right friom your basement. taking out dirt one 5 gallon bucket at a time? Sounds nutty but it could be done. Has anyone done this? My wife would think I had lost it.


The problems you get with this are:

-city bylaws may not approve it... and most City's think you should always get proper building permits before attempting anything more difficult than replacing a light bulb. 
-potential structural hazard - if you start digging under your basement, whats going to support your basement? 
-What are you going to do with the existing drainage system... all the weeping tile system around the outside of your foundation... the water will want to get into the hole you are digging
-Whats your plan to survive? (IE... fresh air in, fresh water in, sewage/waste out, electricity for lighting)

Building something like that is risky... you are essentially building your own tomb. If there is some emergency and you seek shelter in your 'bunker'... and become trapped... you will only last so long.

Much better off to look at investing in some acreage outside of town... something that is within a reasonable distance (1/4 tank of gas MAX... )

Why do I say 1/4 tank of gas... lets say there is a big power outage, or something shuts down communications... you may not be able to purchase fuel... but you may still be able to drive. If you've only got a 1/2 tank of gas, you will use all of that just driving to your remote location and then back to town. Unless you can keep fuel at your residence, and cycle it with your regular fuel usage.


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## Canadian

You're going to need more than a "hole" for survival. A real bunker is a serious piece of work. I'd find a place out of town to put one. Perhaps split the cost with family and friends? You could rent a basement in a large apartment or condo block. My condo basement is built like a concrete bunker. The storage lockers are often for rent. I don't think my complex could take a direct hit. But you could live down there with more safety than in a house.


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## jebrown

If you dig an underground bunker cellar or what ever and you don't get permission from the city or county which ever issues building permits. Probably no problem.
Try to sell your house in the future you will be required to remove the hide out and fill it back in at your expensive other wise it can not be sold. No mortage company will mortage any property containing modifications without building permits. Think you can hide it from them? Don't even try. Smart home buyers hire a home inspection company to inspect your home before theyh purchase the home and will make the purchase contingent on a home inspection report.
You might be fined by the city or county that issues permits for building wihout a building permit.
You may not want to sell your home but one never knows about the future. Often people have to sell thier homes in the future do to medical problems job reloaction etc..
It could also prevent title transfer to a family member.


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## bobf19460

*electric from water*

google "hydro power" to look for info on water powered electricity

Bob


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## NaeKid

I heard a story about a guy who purchased several old rail-road cars (passenger cars, sleeping / dining / etc) and then started digging a hole in the ground. He then carefully placed the 4 cars into the hole in the ground and built a "connecting tunnel" between all the cars so that he could go back and forth from the dining area to the sleeping to his "living room"). Once he had all that setup and working fully open to the air he built sky-lights and a stair-way that reached to the "grade-level" - above ground.

He then back-filled the hole till only the stair-way and skylights were visible - built a large garage for his vehicles and access to his underground home. Sky-lights allowed sunlight to brighten the home, ventilation came through the garage and circulated via solar-powered fans. The whole setup was powered via 12volt LED lighting and solar-charging systems.

All-in-all - it looked like it was well designed, built and lived in.


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## kettleMan

NaeKid said:


> I heard a story about a guy who purchased several old rail-road cars (passenger cars, sleeping / dining / etc) and then started digging a hole in the ground. He then carefully placed the 4 cars into the hole in the ground and built a "connecting tunnel" between all the cars so that he could go back and forth from the dining area to the sleeping to his "living room"). Once he had all that setup and working fully open to the air he built sky-lights and a stair-way that reached to the "grade-level" - above ground.
> 
> He then back-filled the hole till only the stair-way and skylights were visible - built a large garage for his vehicles and access to his underground home. Sky-lights allowed sunlight to brighten the home, ventilation came through the garage and circulated via solar-powered fans. The whole setup was powered via 12volt LED lighting and solar-charging systems.
> 
> All-in-all - it looked like it was well designed, built and lived in.


Very cool, man!


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## Expeditioner

kettleMan said:


> Very cool, man!


I think the idea is cool as well. Gives me an idea on building a "panic" bunker for a friend who is new to prepping.


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## bunkerbob

*building shelter one 5 gal bucket at a time*

Answer: yes, I am, and my wife knows about it. Working on it for about 2 months, I have excavated a 10 x 10 room, 6ft hight so far, under a workshop slab. I will connect it with the house eventually. I have pre-purchased the filter system parts, co2 scubber material, pelletized charcoal, o2 tank, hand cranked centrifical blower, inline 110v ac fan, 4" steel gate valves( to seal shelter when necessary). It will have a hand pumped flush up toilet, water from 2- 5000gal tanks, filled from a well. I live off-grid with a 3.5KW wind -solar hybrid elect system, with t-105 batteries. The shelter will get the dc power from the existing system, charging a banks of batteries, then to a 4000 watt Trace sw4024 inverter. I have a bunker door to be concreted in when ready. I have an extensive food storage larder on hand to be transfered down when finished.
I built a Nu-Dura block house about 3 years ago, 1ft thick walls almost make it an above ground shelter already. It has a bio-filter system that can filter down to .5 microns and has a ultraviolet pre cleaner, all self designed and tested.

*One mans shelter can be another mans promised land*


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## NaeKid

That sounds like a very sweet setup! It sounds like you are living what I am dreaming of!


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## bunkerbob

Thanks for the reply, not to brag, survival, is not just a whim with me, it is my hobby. I study everything I can on all aspects. I have 5 acres removed from the suburban population, not to far but far enough, built a energy efficient home, live off the grid, have a large organic garden and orchard from which I preserve and can every year, keeping a fresh addition to my home food storage larder. I like to keep up on the latest in bio-chem-radiological protection, with masks, full body chem suits and shelter gear. One benefit to being retired is that I have more time to focus on these and keep my immediate family prepared. The internet is a wonderful place to gain this knowledge, some must be taken with caution, but as a whole can be very useful. I hope I can pass on some of this knowledge to others who might benefit. This shelter is actually the second one I have designed and built, the last was left with the new owner of my last home, whom I believe did not appreciate its viability and usefulness. My latest project was to design a simple clear acrylic canister air scrubber for the shelter, using sofolime pellets and pelletized carbon charcoal, with a O2 tank injector.

Never forget the story of the Ant and the Grasshopper.


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## Canadian

I'd love to see pics when you're done. Sounds like an awesome setup. I like it when things are done right. 

Peace!


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## bunkerbob

Believe it or not this is the first time that I have participated in a forum. I am some what reluctant to talk about what I am doing, I don't want anyone to think that I am trying to brag or out to impress someone about what I have done or going to do. Sometimes these forums bring out the wrong impression. So I hope the group will acknowledge this and see that I am here to spread the good word about self reliance. Also it will take some time to learn how to add photos to my replies. Visit bunkerbob to see how my home has evolved. Not very professionally done, but will give some ideas what I've been up to.


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## NaeKid

I took a quick peak at your webpage - looks like you are smack-dab in the middle of a desert. How has that influenced your design of the house / etc?


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## bunkerbob

Southern Calif is like a high desert in parts, this area is about 2200ft in altitude, mostly chaparral type brush and trees, some years we get snow, not much, about 1 foot, rain about 12" per season. Good water though, the well produces about 40gal min, pump runs about 1 1/2 hours a day to keep water tanks topped off. Soil not great, but after adding truckloads of manure very rich. Clay type soil on surface, deeper it changes to decomposed granite. Hard to dig, need jack hammer to get anywhere but great for excavation, holds well enough not have concrete or block on sides while digging. Because of tempature swings, up to 110 degrees during summer months and below freezing in winter, the Nu-dura was a great choice for building materials, r50 insulation factor in walls and r38 fiberglas in ceilings. No forced air HVAC, temp inside 81 degrees max summer months, use wood stoves for heat during winter. To conserve power we have a tankless water heater, led and cf type light bulbs, but we still have a sink garbage disposal, dishwasher, jacuzzi tub in the master bath, large refer, and freezer like most homes here. A security system with intrusion alarm sensors, IR 50' range outside cameras conneted to every tv in the house, using a video sequencer so all cameras are seen in order.


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## Canadian

House looks nice. I want to see the bunker!


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## bunkerbob

Here are a few photos


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## bunkerbob

photos continued...


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## Canadian

Wow! The plug and the blast door are awesome. The hand crank blower is cool too. Nice stuff. Thanks for posting the pictures. I look forward to seeing more as work continues. Cheers!


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## The_Blob

*saw THIS on another thread & thought of you*

6 Safe, Strong-and Chic-Bomb Shelters You Can Buy Now

The bomb shelter business is booming. At least that's the consensus of the men and women who design, construct and install underground sanctuaries. They attribute the growth in business to Kim Jong Il's erratic missile lobbing, the intransigent Iranian clerics hell-bent on getting nuclear weaponry, the impending total collapse of the global financial system, and the end of the world in 2012, as predicted by the Mayan Calendar.

"For whatever reason-and we're not totally sure ourselves-but business is incredible," Brian V. Camden, an engineer at high-end shelter builder Hardened Stuctures, says. "Twenty-twelve, the financial collapse: I just had to hire a new architect Tuesday. Right now we're doing a lot in Tennessee, Kentucky, Pennsylvania. All through Appalachia, it's people who share a similar mind-set."

"We get do a lot in Texas, and a lot in New York too," says Sharon Packer, of Utah Shelter Systems, "because they've already had an event. We're having considerably more activity in the last six months. As one of those businesses that thrive on bad news-and the newspapers are full of real threats right now. People are becoming more savvy to those."

American preparedness and paranoia in the form of the bomb shelter dates back to the earliest days of the Cold War. A 1951 article from Popular Mechanics titled, "If the A-bombs Burst," detailed crucial steps for surviving the opening salvo of World War III, complete with a list of how to stock a shelter. The subsequent decade saw more of the same in PM's pages, with stories such as "Backyard Bomb Shelter," "Atomic Hideouts," and "You Can Build a Low-Cost Shelter Quickly."

According to industry experts, bomb-shelter tech has changed little in the five decades since World War II. Today's fallout-shelter offerings show that the industry standard is a far cry from the cheap-and-quick backyard bunker. Today, they're bigger, stronger and setting one off is guaranteed to leave a crater in your checking account. Here are six we'd like to hole up in until the fallout settles.

6 Top Bomb Shelters - Fallout Shelters You Can Buy Now - Popular Mechanics


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## bunkerbob

Thanks for the reply. I saw this article on the web also, but...,you know as well as I that most of these "low cost" alternatives are still not in line with most folks budgets, especially now. I'm showing how a lot of free self labor can bring about the same results. Go online, read, study, research, experiment, make survival your hobby as I have done. Its nice to dream about, but today is the best day to prepare. Whether you start small or all out, don't wait til the last moment when the:shtf:, buy a little at a time, instead of that extra 6 pack of beer for the weekend, purchase a case of water for your food storage. Enough lecturing, but be serious, act, not just talk.

*Remember Mans ingenuity*


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## The_Blob

noted AND seconded... :beercheer:

don't forget we have THIS smilie: :shtf: when you don't wanna use the acronym


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## bunkerbob

Thanks for the note and smilie, I'am new at this.


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## TechAdmin

Looks good bunker bob. I've thought about it for sometime. But in Texas we have a tremendous amount of limestone that you have to blast through and getting a permit to do that in the city is impossible.


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## bunkerbob

Did you notice the jackhammer in the background on one of the photos. My subsurface ground is decomposed granite, pick and shovel are not usable, except to fill buckets, jackhammer only. 
I work for about an hour then, haul out 5 gal buckets one at a time for about an hour for about 2 cycles, then in the afternoon 1 cycle, good work out, for a retired old guy. Then I tend to the garden, feed the animals, work on projects for the shelter(designing recirc-scubber filter right now), even find time to hand-load cartridges for my firearms sometimes, also prepare dinner for my wife who still works. Also I put up pickles, can tomatoes, and make jam. I am also a HAM radio operator and volunteer for the local fire dept RACES team. Get up early, go to bed early that's my motto. You have to start somewhere, no excuses!

*Nothing is impossible when you put your mind and back into it*


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## RedRocker

Great info Bob, I just got my Ham license, also headed in the same direction
as you, unfortunately at a much slower pace. I need to research ICF a little more.


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## bunkerbob

*House never really done...*

If you don"t mind try my link for more info... bunkerbob its not much but I try to keep it up-to-date as much as possible. I can answer questions if you would like. Here is a photo of the outside of the house, still doing some finish work, trim, painting doors inside, caulking around doors and windows. You're never done building a house really, and awhile back I took on the shelter project. My HAM license is a great tool, my wife and I received them at the same time, and now both vehicles are fitted with radios and portables, preset for local repeaters. One note, we had a large fire south of here a few years ago in San Diego county, which proved the worth of HAM radio, as you know, cell phone transmissions will not penetrate accumulated smoke in the air and this made it difficult to impossible for the emergency teams, police, and fire to communicate because they rely heavily on their cell phones these days. Also the fire took out a large percentage of the mountain top emergency comm repeaters, and fixed land lines. The RACES teams were called in to provide point to point communications. 73s

H.A.M. is one acronym for..."had alot of money"


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## RedRocker

I hear ya on the money, I don't even have a radio yet, but I'll probably start with 
a 2 meter and Lord only knows where it will end.


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## Billbagdaddy

I have a 100' x 50' backyard. I put in a 7'x7'x12' "root cellar" with a hatch type entrance that looks like a table on top of it. The table top is hinged and when opened you descend thru what appears to be the table base. All done in nice thick wood painted white. I even put decorative moulding around it.


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## bunkerbob

Send a photo to share so we can compare ideas.

Remember the Ant and the Grasshopper fable...


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## Billbagdaddy

*Photo's*

Still figuring out the photo thing. I'm barely computer literate. I remember a new black & white tv.


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## bunkerbob

So you had one of those fancy dancy TVs, I remember 'watching' the Howdy Doody program on the radio.

Use the "Go Advanced" button at bottom of screen, then go to attach files near bottom, use "manage attachments" button, then browse your computer for the folder you keep your photos in, usually the 'My Pictures' folder, then select photo, then download, it will attach to your reply automatically.

Never forget the Ant and the Grasshopper fable...


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## kc5fm

*Shelter*



michigan98gt said:


> Above all else, I want this to be almost 100% hidden from the outside world and able to support us for at least 1 year. I would like to budget around $50,000 or so accomplish all this.


If it's a storm cellar you seek, the link to the National Safe Shelter Assocation is linked to the blog in my signature. If you need shelter for more than eight, adjust the costs upwards.

Hope that helps.


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## TechAdmin

Any body else have pics of their shelters?


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## youpock

Dean said:


> Any body else have pics of their shelters?


I'd love to see some pictures too, those Utah shelters didn't seem that great. But that one link a few pages back about 6 cheap options. It would be sweet to get an old military silo.. haha

I also like the idea of railcars, there's none on craigslist in my area..  but you can get shipping crates pretty easily for about $1500 or less, not a bad option to hide in the ground.


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## questor

just a thought.
However I'm moving to WY. next year and will be 
installing some sort of underground 'storage'

Pre-Cast Concrete Box Culverts for Grain Reclaim, Cattle Pass and More


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## bunkerbob

questor said:


> just a thought.
> However I'm moving to WY. next year and will be
> installing some sort of underground 'storage'
> 
> Pre-Cast Concrete Box Culverts for Grain Reclaim, Cattle Pass and More


Wow, now thats a bunker, great site questor.


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## Canadian

I want a bunker now too.


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## questor

bunkerbob said:


> Wow, now thats a bunker, great site questor.


the thing I like is that the precast units come in different lengths.
also, with a little ingenuity, you can make almost any configuration you want.

I have a buddy that lives in 15 or so shipping containers.
some below ground (he claims a couple of levels)
some at ground level and some stacked.
all his power comes from several wind generators.


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## questor

jebrown said:


> If you dig an underground bunker cellar or what ever and you don't get permission from the city or county which ever issues building permits. Probably no problem.
> Try to sell your house in the future you will be required to remove the hide out and fill it back in at your expensive other wise it can not be sold. No mortage company will mortage any property containing modifications without building permits. Think you can hide it from them? Don't even try. Smart home buyers hire a home inspection company to inspect your home before theyh purchase the home and will make the purchase contingent on a home inspection report.
> You might be fined by the city or county that issues permits for building wihout a building permit.
> You may not want to sell your home but one never knows about the future. Often people have to sell thier homes in the future do to medical problems job reloaction etc..
> It could also prevent title transfer to a family member.


some areas do not require permits for "basement structures"
but DO get an underground locator out.
NOT a good idea to dig up your or your neighbors power or water and such


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## Von Helman

Nice link, thanks !


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## kenny

The box culverts look very interesting with the potential for many sizes and possible configurations. Anyone have any idea what these cost I would like to get something like a 8x10 x 20 long and bury it in the side of a hill.
anyone have a rough guess on pricing.


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## questor

I called the company . .
forgot to ask price
the measurements you see are width by height by 4 foot sections.
I would imagine that there would also be shipping charges

you may also want to check out how their silos are constructed
some possibilities there, too


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## questor

kenny said:


> The box culverts look very interesting with the potential for many sizes and possible configurations. Anyone have any idea what these cost I would like to get something like a 8x10 x 20 long and bury it in the side of a hill.
> anyone have a rough guess on pricing.


I emailed them this is the response I got

"We price them by the job. 
As it is different on each project with freight and load ratings, etc".

Mike Hanson

Hanson Silo Company

11587 CR 8 SE

Lake Lillian, MN 56253

1-800-THE-SILO

320.664.4174 x102 Direct

[email protected]

Precast Concrete Panels and Bunkers - Hanson Silo Companies


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## greaseman

the problem is not so much in the dig, but what to do with all the dirt. The digging can be done, but that is a monumental ammount of dirt to get rid of. might be interesting to look at examples from prisoners of war that dug tunnels to escape their camp. How did they do it? what did they do with the dirt? etc...


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## questor

We used ours to make raised garden beds, berming some out buildings, earthbag experiments and other landscaping projects.


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## kappydell

Hmmm - canadian, I like the condo storage area idea, esp if the basement is totally underground and the floors above are concrete.


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## 1969cj-5

The Pre-Cast idea is what the Wife and I are looking at for our shelter.I am researching local suppliers. If I can get them delivered to the Farm, then I can install them myself and not worry about local cement contractors knowing about my "wierd" Basement...

If I can not get this figured out them I am considering using cement block and builing my shelter then burrying it. The less people who know where and what it is the better.


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## longtime

1969cj-5 said:


> The less people who know where and what it is the better.


Don't forget about the eye in the sky. I had mine open for over two months during construction. County did their yearly property tax survey from the sky during that time. Can't see it from the road but the assessor and codes people have a nice picture.


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## TheAnt

longtime said:


> Don't forget about the eye in the sky. I had mine open for over two months during construction. County did their yearly property tax survey from the sky during that time. Can't see it from the road but the assessor and codes people have a nice picture.


Bastards! (not you, the assessors) Your point is well made. If any of this type of construction goes on it would be best to do it under some kind of cover. I have thought about draping one of those big camo net thingys over an area during construction but it would be difficult. Also have thought it would be best to build a metal building over the area first but that would be expensive and necessarily permanent.


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## questor

how about a large parachute. They're relatively, inexpensive, innocuous, fairly common and come in many sizes.
here are a few
http://store.colemans.com/cart/parachute-100-ft-usgi-p-2531.html
http://store.colemans.com/cart/parachute-64-ft-usgi-p-1427.html?currency=USD
http://store.colemans.com/cart/parachute-32-ft-british-p-1426.html


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## greaseman

any thoughts on turning a regular basement itself into a fortress of sorts? I talking about designing a secure way to close up the entrance, secure any outside access, such as ground level windows. Doing all this, without trying to dig another lower level below the basement as mentioned. The basic problems mentioned about going below the basment level are very difficult to deal with from an engineering , and safety aspect. Drainage issues alone would make this nearly impossible to deal with.
I read some older civil defense stuff on how to make a concrete blast shelter in a basement. The story dealt with all the necessary material and design aspects of this shelter. This whole shelter in a basement thing without digging further down seems like it might make more sense than digging another shelter below the existing basement. That will be quite the enginerring job. good luck.


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## longtime

I have a problem with any of these under a house (made of wood). About 4 years ago we were burned out, complete loss. If you have built your last chance under a wood frame house, it's easy to lose.

Just a thought.


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## dataman19

Bunkerbob - Interesting Reference to the old Borax Mine Shelter ... My late step father was chief civil Engineer at Edwards in the 60's.... He was one of the developers/builders of that very shelter complex.
...
Used to have tons of pictures of the old Boron, Ca Bunker - but after the funeral my dear brother and sister threw out/burned most of his old photos. Sibling rivalry, it always seems that the ones who care the least always want to deny the ones who want it the most after a funeral. Shame.... The only thing that survived were some of his old cowboy photos (like the panoramic's of the cowboy and their horses taken on the ranch in southern Arizona near Wilcox, AZ in the early 1900's...).
....
I have yet to get back to Southern California and the Mohave Desert - we moved away in the mid 1960's when my father retired and bought a business in Middle Tennessee where he employed over 3,700 people for 31 years.
...
I guess my early years of hanging around dubious characters (lake Captain Yeager, Col Scott and Mr. Kelly Johnston ) at Edwards was a great influence upon my lifes works. While working for the US Government I helped design/build a dozen bunkers - from simple Command and Control to Chemical/Biological refuges. Now like you, I am retired and bored.
..
Now the stupid generation is in charge. We can only sit on the sideline and wonder what they heck.... What are they thinking? No need for a Military Infrastructure? No need for a trained workforce? No economy (and the only opportunities going to private interest groups)? Congressmen who get paid over $65K monthly to look after special interest groups interests in Congress?
....
Get ready gang, the Third World War is coming quickly.... All we need is to open our defenses a little more, eliminate a few more nuclear weapons and drop a few more defenses. We already dismantled 80% of our Nuclear Arsenal, eliminated about 65% of our Military Forces and oh yea - tore down the 486L Mediterranean Military Backbone Communications Network that John F. Kennedy had built to give our Country positive control of our deployed military forces on a global scale. With it we dismantled not only the communications backbone, but the Satellite Weather Imagery Network for the National Weather System out of Langley Virginia. Then they transferred the Military Communications workload to :leased Lines" provided by foreign nations Telecom Company's. Our National Air Traffic Control System is being remodeled to eliminate ground based radars and retrofitted to employ Satellite Imagery (under the false assumption that Satellites are safe from harm - Just like the U2 that Gary Powers flew over Russia in the 1960's - don't get me started).
....
The MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction) system kept the world safe from Nuclear War for over 40+ years because it gave no one Nation the First trike Advantage. You see the First Strike Advantage only works if there are "limited" Nuclear Weapons. With MAD, there were too many. Now the anti nuke weenies are telling us everyone should not have Nukes (I partly agree - nukes are totally inhumane. But who is to say that some backward thinking nationality won't secretly build a few?). So now the mentality is that everyone should only have one or two - which means the First Strike Rule now applies. So now any country that decides to strike first could achieve a "winning advantage". Now to make it even scarrier - the BEMEWS (Ballistic Early Warning System - the one spanning from Alaska in the west across the Canadian North to Greenland) is being re-tasked and dismantled as a cold war relic. They have already Dismantled the Phased Array Radars at Homestead in Florida, The One in South East Texas (I think it's actual location is still classified - Why? Maybe because it is being retasked as a congressional sex club retreat, who knows...). Even the ones in California, The Philippeans, and the in Puerto Rico have all gone bye bye. I guess next they will dismantle the Bomber Safe Havens like the one at at Mayaguana Island, Bahammas (oops - was that still a secret???). I guess Thule Greenland is next (last time I checked on Google Earth, Thule has been downsized considerably - like a 95% reduction.)
...
So since the world is shifting to the "Honor system" that brought about the Crusades mentality of the early 16th Century I guess we are all "ON our Own". Heaven help those who are depending upon our self servicing government leaders - you know who I'm talking about - The ones who moved all the jobs to China so that China could become the next domineering superpower. The Government Officials who are getting paid more to dismantle America and sell our national security and secrets for personal net gains?.....

As for some of the other concerns on this forum - Ya never know what you can do til ya try....
..
As for building a bunker/shelter under a wood frame house? Why not? Fire? Concrete will burn, but it has to be really really hot - like molten iron hot. So a reinforced and thermally isolated bunker structure would survive a hundred fires that would take out a wood framed structure. A layer of sand and soil eliminates thermal transfer and provides the barrier to keep things manageable. An Air Intake that is separate from the wood frame structure is however highly advisable, since the wood frame structure is a tinderbox in waiting....
...
Right now I need to go and check my HEPA Filters...
...
Good Luck - Remember - "I'm Prayin For Ya"...
Dave
Phoenix, AZ


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## bunkerbob

dataman19 said:


> Bunkerbob - Interesting Reference to the old Borax Mine Shelter ... My late step father was chief civil Engineer at Edwards in the 60's.... He was one of the developers/builders of that very shelter complex.
> ...
> Used to have tons of pictures of the old Boron, Ca Bunker - but after the funeral my dear brother and sister threw out/burned most of his old photos. Sibling rivalry, it always seems that the ones who care the least always want to deny the ones who want it the most after a funeral. Shame.... The only thing that survived were some of his old cowboy photos (like the panoramic's of the cowboy and their horses taken on the ranch in southern Arizona near Wilcox, AZ in the early 1900's...).
> ....
> Dave, I'm not sure if this mine, The Underground City, is the same you are referring to, it is a abandoned gypsum mine near Blythe, Ca about 75-100 miles from Boron, or Edwards AFB. To bad about the loss of the photos though, some people don't value these items, I would have loved to see them for comparison.


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## VUnder

1969cj-5 said:


> The Pre-Cast idea is what the Wife and I are looking at for our shelter.I am researching local suppliers. If I can get them delivered to the Farm, then I can install them myself and not worry about local cement contractors knowing about my "wierd" Basement...
> 
> If I can not get this figured out them I am considering using cement block and builing my shelter then burrying it. The less people who know where and what it is the better.


Just an idea I may have tried. Build a metal building. But, instead of pouring a slab, just pour a formed footing all the way around just the perimeter. Then, you build a hull of a building. Make an A frame to lift your dirt out and set out of your hole. Make your A frame heavy, because you will have to use it to get your bobcat or mini excavator back up out of the hole. The end of the A frame that is on the back side of your hole needs to be able to pivot. The end toward the door needs to be able to travel, so you can swing the A frame to and fro. This is because you will run out of room to put your dirt. Buy plastic 55 gal drums and cut in half and make buckets out of them. You can make a quick release latch that is normally open unless weight is on it. That way you can pick your dirt up, send it out of the hole, and when you set the barrel down, the latch opens and you can bring the hook back to you, leaving the dirt topside. Being able to swing the A frame lets you put a lot of dirt out before you have to stop and do something with the dirt. You don't have to move all the dirt, because you will need to back fill your walls and cover the top. ICF's are a lot easier to fool with than cinder blocks, and a lot stronger. Get you an old electric mixer for your concrete. A lot of the concrete can be poured in dry and water added if you don't want to do all the mix and pour. You can also skip the digging equipment and do it all with shovels, but having the A frame and being able to move the dirt out is the main key to successfully accomplishing this. You will have twenty percent more dirt than you dig out, because of non compaction. The dirt is really the main problem. You can even stack the barrel sections if you don't want to be putting it out and raising suspicion. If you have a piece of equipment, stack the barrels and then scoot them out of the way, against the wall, to be retrieved later. I built one for a customer that was five thousand square feet of floor space. The dirt handling was the main problem.


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## twodollarbill

*underground structure*

I don't know if this fits your bill, but I saw a pretty cool multi room concrete structure. There website is http://rainydayrootcellars.com/
Good luck.


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## RedRocker

twodollarbill said:


> I don't know if this fits your bill, but I saw a pretty cool multi room concrete structure. There website is http://rainydayrootcellars.com/
> Good luck.


Thanks for the link Bill


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## Von Helman

@dataman19

That was a great post and so right on the mark, but too bad all the sheeple are asleep while they are getting sheared. 

All we can do is build our own survival places and make them as self sufficient as possible.


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## Ration-AL

really nothing to add at this point, just in awe;-)
other than amazing thread, and will be watching it closely! subscribed! :congrat:


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## Wanderer0101

Bunkerbob I'm interested in building an ICF house. Any particular reason you selected Nudura? I've been reading the literature on the various options and finding it difficult to make up my mind. Did you do the work yourself and what kind of compressive strength was your concrete?


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## bunkerbob

Wanderer0101 said:


> Bunkerbob I'm interested in building an ICF house. Any particular reason you selected Nudura? I've been reading the literature on the various options and finding it difficult to make up my mind. Did you do the work yourself and what kind of compressive strength was your concrete?


When we built the house they were one of or the only one with "T" shaped forms, the others required you to cut and make your own. I also liked the folding plastic web holding the two sides together, this only required the forms to be opened, not assembled.
I also found a local architect and builder who were familiar with these.
We used the V-buck door and window framing and found it awesome. 
http://www.vbuck.com/
I can't remember what the concrete strength was, but we had an inspector here during the wall form pour who took three samples and tested two leaving us with one for backup.
We helped some, but relied on the contractor to do most of the work.
BB


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## Wanderer0101

bunkerbob said:


> When we built the house they were one of or the only one with "T" shaped forms, the others required you to cut and make your own. I also liked the folding plastic web holding the two sides together, this only required the forms to be opened, not assembled.
> I also found a local architect and builder who were familiar with these.
> We used the V-buck door and window framing and found it awesome.
> http://www.vbuck.com/
> I can't remember what the concrete strength was, but we had an inspector here during the wall form pour who took three samples and tested two leaving us with one for backup.
> We helped some, but relied on the contractor to do most of the work.
> BB


Thank you so much for the information. The Vbuck product looks very interesting.


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## akgirl

After the Joplin and Denning tornado's, the initial project began as a storm shelter and then it grew. I just wanted to state up front, NO this shelter will not withstand a direct impact of any kind (bombs, nuclear, etc.), the exception being tornado's. And NO it wont last for a hundred years. It will however offer protection from the elements, possible fallout and will add a degree of stealth for those looking to get out of the line of fire. Easier to warm in winter and cooler in the summer should fuel/electricity become an issue.

The initial 20'x20' structure cost; less than $2000.00.

Don't think in terms of the total amount of construction, you don't need to buy everything at once. If you have a location available you need to dig. I did not add the cost of our excavation to the construction cost, as this amount will vary depending on where you are (terrain), who you know and the size of the structure you want to build.

http://realworldreport.com/forum/#topic/How-to-build-an-underground-shelter-on-a-budget.htm


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## TheAnt

Interesting video. You guys put in a lot of work there to build that structure! What I dont understand is how its going to stand up to rain, termites, etc? I guess you said it wasnt supposed to last a hundred years. If it fills your need then more power to ya! Just a lot of work for such a temporary structure isnt it?


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## akgirl

TheAnt said:


> Interesting video. You guys put in a lot of work there to build that structure! What I dont understand is how its going to stand up to rain, termites, etc? I guess you said it wasnt supposed to last a hundred years. If it fills your need then more power to ya! Just a lot of work for such a temporary structure isnt it?


Everything is temporary in life, lol. 
Estimated life of the structure 15-20 years, longer with the right care. Sealing against moisture is Key. Since the 1st video the building has double in size and I have been living inside from the beginning of last winter.


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## MichaudSpencer

Hey guys im 13 from manitoba up in Canada and was just wondering if there is a cheap shelter like up to $9000.00 because thats all I got


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## CrackbottomLouis

jebrown said:


> If you want complete protection from outside contamination of any kind, have a look at Utah Shelters System.
> www.disastershelters.net


Cool link! Thanks for posting. C'mon lotto #'s!


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## TheLazyL

michigan98gt said:


> ...Electric supplied by the stream...figured it has a 8ft. head (of pressure?)...!


One or two of these should suplement or inplace of solar: http://www.absak.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/33_89_90/products_id/3


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## questor

just saw this on a website showing the 10 most 'radical homes' in the 20th century. I was thinking that if you changed the exterior wall(s) it would be suitable for what we're talking about. If nothing else a good tornado shelter or 'wine cellar'. 
This is the caption below the photo.

Malator, Pembrokeshire Coast National Park, Druidston, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Architect: Future Systems

Commissioned from British architecture firm Future Systems by politician Bob Marshall-Andrews and his wife, Gill, and completed in 1996, the residence known as Malator is practically invisible, a cunning structure literally subsumed by its national-park site.

Responding to strict prohibitions against visible construction, destruction of the landscape, and disruption of wildlife, husband-and-wife architects Jan Kaplický (who died in 2009) and Amanda Levete replaced the old military barrack that had been used as their clients’ vacation getaway with a smaller two-bedroom retreat that is largely underground — a softly contoured, one-story wedge of glass, concrete, timber, and stainless steel tucked beneath an artificial hill.

Only a small metal chimney poking through the turf gives away the location of what some observers call the Teletubby house. On the opposite side of the hill, however, concealed from the view of park visitors, a long, crescent-shaped glass wall takes in resplendent rocky views of St. Bride’s Bay and the Atlantic Ocean beyond.


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