# Cuttin Time



## Cotton (Oct 12, 2013)

My boys lost their boys today. The horse and donkey were raised together since they were foals, both studs. About 6 months ago the fighting became serious, they had finally reached that age. They had chunks of hide and hair missing, coming up lame etc. It was a none-stop battle for weeks.

The bad part, I’ve a pasture full of cows and calves. Unintentionally they could easily maim or kill a calf during a fight. So, today was castration day! Neither was very happy about it… 

I’ve seen a horse cut in the past. Today he bled some, for about 20 minutes. Then he clotted up nicely. Just the way it was supposed to go.

This was my first time seeing a donkey cut. I knew from reading that donkey’s bleed a lot more than horses, a lot more. They have a larger arteries going to their testicles than do horses. After 2 hours the blood finally slowed. I was told this was normal. The amount of blood was still very alarming (and I was born on this farm and have slaughtered many animals).

The second problem today was his inability to sedate the donkey properly. He had to inject into the muscle which meant it was slower to take effect and slower coming out of it. It was hard to judge if the donkey’s behavior was due to the sedative or blood loss. After 3 hours the bleeding finally stopped much to my relief. :congrat:

So, if any new preppers face this in the future… be warned! It was a good learning experience. If necessary I could do this.

Anyway, both critters got a badly needed hoof trim while we were at it and the horse got a hair cut. I trimmed his mane with scissors, now he looks like one of the Beatles with a bowl cut.  Don’t make fun of him though, he’s a working man, no fifty dollar hair cuts at the salon for him! Besides it was hard to cut with him lying on the ground and his mane is extra thick.


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## hashbrown (Sep 2, 2013)

Do you castrate by the moon?


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## Cotton (Oct 12, 2013)

hashbrown said:


> Do you castrate by the moon?


The young fellow said the moon was wrong but it was the only time he could come down, 2hr drive... Not easy to find someone who makes farm calls these days.


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

Different and interesting ...

Thanks ...


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## Cotton (Oct 12, 2013)

*Andi said:


> Different and interesting ...
> 
> Thanks ...


I almost didn't post this&#8230; For folks who didn't grow up farming it's not a pleasant subject. For those of us who did, castration of pigs and cattle are fairly common. Then I thought, how often does the subject come up with equines?

For folks who don't know&#8230; Equines, sometimes their testicles don't drop from their bodies until they are 2 years old. So, the general rule of thumb&#8230; wait until they are at least 2 years old. Cattle and pigs etc are cut when they are very young.

I thought at least it would be useful for folks to see the harness that is used and understand why it is sometimes necessary. Large animals full of testosterone can easily injure themselves, other animals and people.


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

Very true ...

But we do things a little different on our farm. We never "hog tie" our horses or a donkey... not that it is wrong, just different. It is of interest to me how other folks do things ... 

Again thanks for posting.


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## Cotton (Oct 12, 2013)

I wanted to add one small bit of information to this. After a phone call to another customer of the young man who came to castrate my critters, I was lead to believe that a small amount of bleeding could continue overnight (donkey). The guy raises horses and donkeys and has a lot of experience with this.

Out of concern I tried something unusual. Achillea millefolium – yarrow. One of the oldest written records of the use of this plant was by Achilles in the Trojan war. He used it to bind wounds of his soldiers. 

Yarrow has been used since ancient times to stop bleeding, one of the best in the plant world for this purpose.

I had some yarrow tincture I made last fall. The donkey’s bleeding had slowed late yesterday but he was still dripping bright red blood on his hooves (from and artery). The sedative had worn off to the point he was more responsive to me. I thought he might eat a little.

I took a pint of sweet feed, added half a chopped apple and a table spoon of yarrow tincture. I poured the yarrow tincture slowly allowing it to soak in thoroughly. The donkey ate about half of it. 10 minutes later the bleeding stopped completely.

I have no way to prove it was the yarrow, but I think it was. The bleeding had slowed but showed no sign of stopping. I was lead to believe it would continue to drip for several more hours. Yet it stopped as if at the snap of a finger. Imho… If in this situation in the future I’m going to use the yarrow tincture a whole lot sooner! 

Both critters are doing fine this morning. The donkey put his forehead against my chest begging for a good ear scratching! So I guess all is forgiven.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

This is an art that needs to be learned properly to be done properly.

I know of too many folks that lost good animals from blood loss due to a botched "cutting".


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Curious if he used any sort of emasculators, and if so how long he kept them on?


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## Cotton (Oct 12, 2013)

Yes, he did use emasculators, I did one testicle myself under direction for the experience/knowledge. I wasn’t timing it but he was, seemed at least 3 minutes.

After the deed was done and he'd left, I found this pdf online. It describes using an absorbable suture to tie off the artery before the emasculator tool is removed (for donkeys).

https://donkeyrescue.donordrive.com/assets/donkeyrescue/files/$cms$/100/1030.pdf

It states that this step eliminates the excessive blood loss because with donkeys the emasculator isn’t enough. This was not done by the fellow I hired.

At least nothing tragic happened in spite of this omission. Next time I’m at the vets office I’ll pick up some absorbable suture, a handy thing to have around.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Cotton said:


> Both critters are doing fine this morning. The donkey put his forehead against my chest begging for a good ear scratching! So I guess all is forgiven.


I was curious how the boys were doing. Spoil them for another day or so and they will never think twice that you did this to them.


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## Cotton (Oct 12, 2013)

Yeah, they are both doing fine. I turned the horse into a 15 acre pasture by himself. There are tufts of green fescue scattered about. That will keep him walking to graze. I was told walking would keep swelling to a minimum. He was repeatedly whinnying at full force so I know he’s not in pain. 

I turned the donkey into a much smaller pasture… same purpose and conditions, scattered green fescue with a little clover. The donkey hasn’t tried to bray… keeping a close eye on both of them.


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## Cotton (Oct 12, 2013)

Late afternoon update – The donkey always brays at me when I feed the chickens and rabbits before him (he gets annoyed). Right now he’s in a small pasture right against the chicken pen so I had to walk around him with their feed.

After the chicks and bunnies were taken care of I went to the barn to get the donkey some feed. The donkey cut loose braying, big time!  For those of you who’ve seen a donkey bray… Safe to say he’s not in pain either.

When I fed the horse, he was dancing around trying to take the feed bucket away as I led him back to the corral. So he’s doing fine as well! No unusual swelling in either animal.

At the end of the day it was an educational experience, I learned a lot about equines I didn’t know. If needed in a grid down situation I could perform this procedure safely. I also learned that yarrow works on equines. Even better, in a couple of months I’ll be able to turn my boys out into the pasture together without them trying to kill each other! :2thumb:


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Glad to hear the boys are doing well.


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## moldy (Feb 14, 2015)

Just wondering if equines are ever banded instead of cut. I suppose it would take longer for the fighting to stop, though.

We band our calves, but sometimes have to run them thru the chute twice to cut off the dried bag.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

moldy said:


> Just wondering if equines are ever banded instead of cut. I suppose it would take longer for the fighting to stop, though.
> 
> We band our calves, but sometimes have to run them thru the chute twice to cut off the dried bag.


I don't think so, not %100 on why. I remember looking it up before but :dunno: the boys don't hang low enough?

For cattle, sheep, and goats, bands work great. We often use the calicrate large bander, works up to mature bulls.

Is there a reason you feel you have to run them through to cut off the bag? We have done this to ship sooner and it is safe, but not the most fun job

The old fashioned rings did not have the same tension as these and particularly the bands are great because you can actually determine the tension based on the size of animal. When put on properly they are remarkably painless for the animals, and they allow for later castration with less risk than a knife. We DO try to give a tetanus shot before the band, as is recommended, but antibiotics and painkillers are recommended for cutting:dunno:


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## ClemKadiddlehopper (Aug 15, 2014)

I learned horse castration when I was a kid from a neighbor who was the go to guy for all things that needed learning on a homestead. His method is one I have never seen done since. I did run it by the local large animal vet here when I had him sedate a big crazy fella, and he did it my way. He thought the method was a keeper.

Basically, the neighbor clamped the tubes using a wooden clothes pin tied tightly closed; they made better clothes pins back then as well. These days you can buy a proper suture clamp.

He had a small flat piece of metal heating red hot in a fire near by and burned through the tube rather than just cutting/fraying it the usual way. Zero issues with bleeding because of the cauterization. Horses he did could be turned back on to the open range with nothing more than a squirt of pine tar for infection and fly control.

For cattle, I now use the callicrate bander when they are near a year old; either late fall or early spring. I love this contraption. The yearlings don't seem to feel a thing and carry on as if nothing happened. The tetanus shot is what gets them po'd. Seems like most people around here that have tried the bander, including the vet, hate it because of complications but I think it must be a technique thing because I have done over 50 bulls and never had an issue; even in fly season. I beleive many are cutting the scrotum as well as using the bander and the steers are getting infected. It may also be that many banded steers are not being kept in clean conditions during the month the whole process takes place. I always try to make sure they go out on pasture when they are banded.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Yeah, I have done hundreds and infection just hasn't been an issue, but... at least 90% of those were after October (6 months without flies:chilly. Improper placement, tension, and very hot weather can cause problems. 
Also, they should get the first shot of vaccine WELL ahead of castration but we often haven't and not one problem thankfully.


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## ClemKadiddlehopper (Aug 15, 2014)

cowboyhermit said:


> Yeah, I have done hundreds and infection just hasn't been an issue, but... at least 90% of those were after October (6 months without flies:chilly. Improper placement, tension, and very hot weather can cause problems.
> Also, they should get the first shot of vaccine WELL ahead of castration but we often haven't and not one problem thankfully.


I haven't found a difference between giving the shot 2 weeks before or at the time of banding either. Since the shot makes them skittish about going in the chute a second time, and I have a small mickey mouse set up, I just give it at time of banding now. I kept a record on the first lot, and there really wasn't any significant open flesh around the band the first 2 weeks at which point the vaccine will have kicked in. Clean digs takes care of potential problems.

One of the complications the vet was going on about was the high number of pneumonia deaths in older banded steers. I still cannot figure that one out.

The vet is also the guy who inspects the cattle at the auction barn and I am always having to prove they are properly steered because no one else in the area is banding older steers and mine have the bullish look compared to the banded as calves lot. Forunately, with the competition for beef heating up, all the bull hooey is starting to go away.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

ClemKadiddlehopper said:


> ...
> 
> One of the complications the vet was going on about was the high number of pneumonia deaths in older banded steers. I still cannot figure that one out.
> 
> The vet is also the guy who inspects the cattle at the auction barn and I am always having to prove they are properly steered because no one else in the area is banding older steers and mine have the bullish look compared to the banded as calves lot. Forunately, with the competition for beef heating up, all the bull hooey is starting to go away.


Yeah, that's a tough one to figure out, sounds like some bias there imho. Does he perform surgical castrations for $$$ by any chance?

We have found under 500lbs buyers don't care if they are castrated or not, but in that 750-1000lb range you often get screwed whether they were recently banded or not done yet. Might as well keep till they get big it seems, with the price of actual bulls :dunno:

I won't say I am worried, but I am _interested_ to see what prices do this week, in light of recent_ incidents_


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## moldy (Feb 14, 2015)

We band after the first freeze here (Oct-Nov) when the calves are around 7 months old. We use the calicrate bander and give a tetanus at the same time. Seems to work well, and we usually only have to do one run thru the chute. Occasionally, the sack just doesn't seem to want to fall off, so that can require a second run thru the chute (right now, we have a couple Jerseys that we banded in Dec that still have dried up bags attached. If we get around to selling them soon, we may have to run them thru and cut them off).

I think most around here cut because Rocky Mountain oysters are a big deal in this area. FFA groups have oyster fries to raise money, and people just seem to like them.


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## ClemKadiddlehopper (Aug 15, 2014)

cowboyhermit said:


> Yeah, that's a tough one to figure out, sounds like some bias there imho. Does he perform surgical castrations for $$$ by any chance?
> 
> We have found under 500lbs buyers don't care if they are castrated or not, but in that 750-1000lb range you often get screwed whether they were recently banded or not done yet. Might as well keep till they get big it seems, with the price of actual bulls :dunno:
> 
> *I won't say I am worried, but I am interested to see what prices do this week, in light of recent incidents*


Now you got me worried. What incidents are you referring to? I have been out of media touch this past week or so.


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## moldy (Feb 14, 2015)

I"m guessing he's referring to the case of mad cow in Canada.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

How about letting this topic die?

Every time I read the title my boys cringe. They remember the horror when the Nurse gave them a local by bouncing a 12 foot fat needle off the pelvic bone to sneak up on them from the back side.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Yup, like moldy guessed, off topic but I am in Canada so... Not especially worried but always "interested" in the media circus.

TheLazyL,


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

TheLazyL said:


> How about letting this topic die?
> 
> Every time I read the title my boys cringe. They remember the horror when the Nurse gave them a local by bouncing a 12 foot fat needle off the pelvic bone to sneak up on them from the back side.


Was _HE_ at least attractive?


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

Grimm said:


> Was _HE_ at least attractive?


Yuk. "He" was a 300 pound, Attila the Hun, *female* gorilla.


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