# I see a lot about guns. what about hand to hand?



## hiking_pop (Apr 9, 2010)

I see a lot of posts on this and other sites about guns, which I'm all for & own. What I don't see a lot of is anything about preparing if you don't have access to a firearm. I understand that not all of us have been through the military, I have not. Does anyone take any training courses? I'm taking Krav Maga, have been for 7 months now. What I really love about it is the way they train you to be in the mindset of ending it quickly and smartly. It's easy to learn and remember, you don't have to be in gladiator shape to use it. Our facility in San Antonio also holds women's only classes dealing with home invasion scenarios, ATM and putting groceries up/car jacking. Does anybody feel the same as me?


----------



## TimB (Nov 11, 2008)

I took karate (TaeKwonDo) when I was younger and remember most of it. Not sure if I can still do spin kicks or the like (just had my knees replaced) but if I'm within arms reach, watch out.  Hopefully, I won't need to use it cuz like the old saying goes- "I'm too old to fight so I'll just shoot you." I wish I could get my wife interested in a self-defense course but that will never happen. 

Tim


----------



## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

We had a topic similar to this not long ago.

The best weapon is the one closest to you. If you are in the kitchen doing some baking (pies - yummy) you will have a rolling-pin right there. Use it.

If you are camping and just finished cooking a great meal and something comes towards you - use the hot cast-iron fryin' pan and lay out the smack-down. Even better if there is still some hot oil in that pan.

Training to use what is available to you is better than trying to rely on a single "planned" weapon. Having a gun in the bedroom ready to use when you are in the living room and someone breaks-in will not do you any good. Having a knife in the kitchen won't help you if you are in the garage - use a wrench!

It is only when you are not ready for something to happen that it will - and - no-one can have weapons always ready .. Would you have a gun on your hip when you are in the shower? Probably not. My weapon of choice at that point would be the shower-curtain and the curtain rod ...


----------



## bunkerbob (Sep 29, 2009)

NaeKid said:


> We had a topic similar to this not long ago.
> 
> It is only when you are not ready for something to happen that it will - and - no-one can have weapons always ready .. Would you have a gun on your hip when you are in the shower? Probably not. My weapon of choice at that point would be the shower-curtain and the curtain rod ...


There you go again, getting into that naked image.


----------



## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

NaeKid said:


> It is only when you are not ready for something to happen that it will - and - no-one can have weapons always ready .. Would you have a gun on your hip when you are in the shower? Probably not. My weapon of choice at that point would be the shower-curtain and the curtain rod ...


Me, seen naked in the shower? I pity the poor housebreaker who saw that! I wouldn't need a weapon to get them to leave.

Seriously though, some very good points about using what's at hand.

These things usually happen so suddenly that most victims are caught without a plan. By rehearsing such possibilities in your mind at all times you will save valuable reaction time...and maybe your life.


----------



## Doomsayer (Apr 6, 2010)

I have spent military but as Naekid says anyting close by works. I dont own any fire arms either, but know how to fight very well ;erant the hard way grew up in a rough neighbourood. One of the best things I have learnt about self defense is are you ready to kill. It is nice to chase an attacker off yes but he will return with help later, but if the attacker fears for their life when they attack odds are they wont ever come back. My plan for SHTF event to proctect my loved ones is make anyone who attempts to harm me and my loved ones is to kill not deter they try to gain entry i pull him in kill and drag the body out.


----------



## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

Doomsayer said:


> I have spent military but as Naekid says anyting close by works. I dont own any fire arms either, but know how to fight very well ;erant the hard way grew up in a rough neighbourood. One of the best things I have learnt about self defense is are you ready to kill. It is nice to chase an attacker off yes but he will return with help later, but if the attacker fears for their life when they attack odds are they wont ever come back. My plan for SHTF event to proctect my loved ones is make anyone who attempts to harm me and my loved ones is to kill not deter they try to gain entry i pull him in kill and drag the body out.


I wouldn't bother with draggin' the body out, except to put on the BBQ and serve with a nice sauce ...

I am not willing to kill anything that I am not willing to eat ... :sssh:


----------



## Doomsayer (Apr 6, 2010)

the body is to atract additon protection/alarm system in the way stray dogs that are starving. once feral dogs have that taste the roam lookin for others to eat.


----------



## Sonnyjim (Sep 17, 2009)

I have been lucky enough to have a large ammount of training(probably 2 months in total straight) of hand to hand combat in the military. However, this like anything else tends to fade in skill over time if not practiced. In a world survival situation you sure as heck bet that I'd be practicing with whomever I'm with these skills whenever I could and perfect them back up to full potential.


----------



## allen_idaho (Oct 21, 2009)

If the fight goes hand to hand, you are doing something wrong. Best advice I've ever been given. 

I've had an assortment of hand-to-hand training throughout my life but I will probably never use it. Karate when I was a kid. Tan Belt when I was stationed on a Marine base. Aikido and Kendo when I lived in Japan. 

But I would be more likely to strangle somebody with my shoelaces if it came down to it. It's just faster. You pop somebody's eye out of the socket with your finger, the fight is over in seconds and you didn't have to put them in a single arm bar or leg hold.


----------



## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

I've taken years of karate and kendo, been trained by local and state law enforcement agencies, the military, and hoping to get in to federal law enforcement pretty soon. I've also trained extensively with swords, shields, rattan bos, escrima sticks, maces and clubs. All of that has trained me pretty well to be able to improvise and use most any item as a weapon. Remember, you can kill someone with just about anything under the correct circumstances; the trick is to train for, and recognize those circumstances.

In example: I've trained with a bo staff . . . a broom handle works pretty well. Escrima? A long mag light or a length of pipe will work. Shield work? Grab pretty much anything with a handle and swing it. Once you start to cross-reference your training with everyday objects, you'll start to see a lot of things that could be used in an emergency.


----------



## sailaway (Mar 12, 2009)

I studied TaeKwonDo in college years ago, only remember a couple of blocks. Studying it again would be a great way to get back into shape. I have always enjoyed the mental aspects of martial arts also.


----------



## Sonnyjim (Sep 17, 2009)

Allen Idaho I could not wholeheartedly agree any more than to your statements. If it were to come down to hand to hand combat then you are fighting for your life straight up. It's not about knowing how to outpunch your oponent in a boxing match or have him run away bleeding and lost, it's about killing him and protecting yourself and your family or friends. In a shtf situation the only time you'd need hand to hand would be to protect yourself from somebody who is trying to take your life or severely injur you after all other methods have failed. And in a shtf situation a small cut alone from an opponent could mean infection(if supplies are run out), let alone broken bones and a cut deep enough for stitches or internal bleeding. 

One thing I learned in the military is that hand to hand is dirty. Yes, they teach you disarming techniques, chokeout techniques, and knife fighting, but nobody that learns the latter can EVER use this in a civilian fight because they are killing techniques. In a shtf situation(globally/continentally), as Allen Idaho said, you need to know how to gouge eyes, rip tracheas, blood choke, dislocate spinal colums with the palms of your hands. 

I'm sure Karate and other martial arts teaches a wonderful array of techniques for self protection which would 100% surely come in handy, but in a world survival situation you must know how to kill efficiently with your hands if necessary, or if anything be willing. What if a 280lb leviathan comes at your with brute force and wants to pummel you to death with his fists?? Karate or no Karate, you are toast unless you are willing to take it to the next step. Pluck those eyes out, rip that trachea, blood choke him, heel palm strike him to the chin, know every pressure point on the human body. 

But also as Allen Idaho said, there shouldn't be a cause for this. Use your shoelace, use a big stick, something big and pointy, a rock or something, you have two choices..... your life or theirs.


----------



## DocWard (Nov 10, 2008)

I hold a brown belt in Kenpo, in addition to my military training. From my perspective, there are many good points. if no weapons are at hand, improvised weapons come in very handy. I strongly believe that the martial arts create a very good foundation for both empty hand and weapons based combat. However, the foundation is worthless without the mindset to do what is necessary, and the mindset is not fully actualized without wisdom, or the ability to read a situation.

While "killing blows" cannot be utilized in sparring, they can be practiced on a bag or some of the new training dummies that are out there. Ideally, practice beforehand to reach proficiency, but if in a shtf situation, I too would be practicing constantly, along with practicing as much as possible with firearms, doing "washer drills" and the like if ammunition was a problem or shooting was not tactically advisable.


----------



## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

Hmmmmm...and double hmmmm... I will talk about me and what I know which ain't much, but it's real world not UFC in the cage...

Faced with an Ice Man or Brock Lestner I'd have to shoot them, I could not stand up and fight one of them and if they are close enough to hit me then my plan is not working

First thing is , there is no defense for a sucker punch, your walking down the street and somebody walking past you just pops you, your going down.

Situational awareness is the first line of defense, maybe I'm a coward, but I watch everybody around me. 

I never sit with my back to a door except in one instance, I have a few friends who are like me and if they are in the good seat I'm ok because I know they are doing what I would do, I can tell from their eyes if there is a potential problem nearby. I should mention that all my friends are armed, all the time, I have one buddy who don't have a CCW. 

I've pissed off more then a few people by asking them to trade me seats, No I don't think I have any enemies who are looking to shoot me in the back, but Bill Hitchcock did as did John W. Harding and they knew better!

I avoid places where a problem might exist, such as local tough guy competitions, there's always the drunk who has something to prove and as I'm a big guy I draw their attention. 

When I say I'm always armed I mean .."Really" not a loose comment, I carry, and in my truck there's one under the arm rest, I have my "Man Purse" by Maxpidition , with a handgun in it, it travels with me... everywhere...

I'm typing this with my sweet little SIG Mosquito at hand along with my Surefire light. and now it really gets bad!!, by my bed there is a short bbl pump 12 ga, under the bed is a short dbl bbl 12 ga, both loaded with #1buck

And last ...I sleep with my XD45 under the covers with me, and my hand on it...Paranoid
? maybe, ok maybe a lot.. but if I get caught off guard hopefully I'll make it...

I carry a knife that the cops won't hassle me over but I have a CCW good in every state I will be in, I will not drive thru a state that won't recognize my MT CCW... when I wear my Justin cowboy boots there is a sweet little boot knife made and given to me by my Late friend Rob Siminich one of the best custom knife makes ever... 

I also am aware of the ball point pen in my pocket, the long key to my Dodge.

I also remember the stuff they taught me 50 years ago in the Marines, but none of it works for dealing with a pushy drunk, it was all about killing the other guy.. and I'd hate to be in court for killing some dumb chit who had a few too many and thinks he's Randy Couture ... my only defense in that case is to leave...fast..OR, beter plan, don't be there in the first place...

A sharp #2 pencil will never catch the eye of a cop...but it will put somebody down fast!... there is that short stick thing that you can carry on your key chain, hold it in your palm and do a hammer blow with it...damn,,what is that called...and I have one..anyway, they work and don't break your knuckles..

Where I live the Lady of the Manor never owned a gun, never shot a gun, never touched a gun, in the last year she's shot my AK, don't like it, won't shoot my Saiga 12 ga... but likes the 10-22...so I bought her a Ruger 22 MK 2 ...she shoots it like she was born with it in her hand... she's having to spend a lot of time in H'ton because of a family member in the hospital, I asked her to take her Ruger, she said it was too heavy and long, so we went looking and found a good deal on a Taraus that works like the tom cat... after about an hour and 300 rounds she was hitting pop cans at 20 yds! she named it "Thelma" and of course the Ruger is...... anybody???..

I've taught her situational awareness , she used to be bothered like many other women in my life that I don't sit staring into their eyes while talking...I'm watching the room..hell she even heads for the table in the corner now...

I'll sum this up by sauing I've had to have a bullet dug out of me and I've had to use a my gun...I can say that I think I know what I'm doing, I hope I do, but that sucker punch can still kill you...

As bill Jordon wrote in his book of the same title.." There's no second place winners in a gun fight"...he would know, he planted over a dozen bad guys...


----------



## DocWard (Nov 10, 2008)

Good points, all, Hozay.

I assume you mean a kubotan?


----------



## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

Yes !!! thanks Doc...I'm more dangerous for the things I forget then what I know!! 

:beercheer::beercheer:


----------



## DocWard (Nov 10, 2008)

HozayBuck said:


> Yes !!! thanks Doc...I'm more dangerous for the things I forget then what I know!!
> 
> :beercheer::beercheer:


I know exactly what you mean.


----------



## eurotrash (May 17, 2010)

if theres ever a situation where youll be forced to flee and survive off of your own back id say hand to hand will come naturally.
on the other hand all that money you may spend on combat lessons would probably be better spent on a wee pile of 9mm ammo. ammo has a good shelf life and in a dog eat dog situation id shoot 1st and ask second!


----------



## Grizz (Jan 24, 2010)

I truly believe that if it came to hand to hand, I will kill the f..., with anything I can get my hands on. or break my elbows, knees, hands , forehead trying.


----------



## DocWard (Nov 10, 2008)

Grizz said:


> I truly believe that if it came to hand to hand, I will kill the f..., with anything I can get my hands on. or break my elbows, knees, hands , forehead trying.


During the middle of the last century, Col. Rex Applegate wrote a book called "Kill or Get Killed" which was used as the basis for much of the combatives used by OSS, Marines and others in WWII and beyond. As I recall, there was discussion of just the mindset you describe.

Many martial arts these days emphasize use of the elbows and knees for striking. The power that can be generated with them is devastating, and they aren't as prone to injury as the hands are.

I also strongly believe that practicing martial arts is just another way of adding to our general overall conditioning, which is important at any time, but becomes vital in SHTF scenarios. Doing so allows us to do something practical (training) while increasing our physical condition, which increases our effective use of time.


----------



## TechAdmin (Oct 1, 2008)

I carry knives. I also grew up learning how to use them as it was a principal part of the martial arts I took. I realize that this doesn't make me unstoppable. I look to not be in those situations by whatever means necessary. Every fight I have ever been in took it toll on my body and I would hate for that to happen again.


----------



## GatorDude (Apr 23, 2009)

*My Super Secret Conflict Avoidance Technique*

Watch COPS. 
Watch the movie - "Deliverance" 
Watch the movie - "New Jack City"
Watch the TV Show - "The Shield"
Watch terrorists on the news.

Stay away from people who look like characters or extras or suspects from any of the above.

If you are looking for a martial art, check out Cuong-Nhu Oriential Martial Arts. They are a non-profit style with very smart, level-headed, practicioners. It combines useful elements of Shotokan Karate, Vovinam, Wing Chun, Kung Fu, Aikido, and Judo. I spent about three years studying it as a younger man.


----------



## faithmarie (Oct 18, 2008)

Has anyone heard of "captain chris"? There is a self defense advertised somewhere and I was wondering if it is worth it 
My son in law does MMA .... but the guy selling the video (somewhere on the web) said his self defense course is better.
I bought a couple of base ball bats and put them by the doors.
Is that wrong.........?:sssh:


----------



## jek1947 (May 19, 2010)

*The Flashlight*

The Flashlight is a useful tool and can be used as a weapon. It requires no license. There are several varieties and costs. I for one, would like to see some of our law enforcement members describe thier training and use techniques for these.


----------



## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

jek1947 said:


> The Flashlight is a useful tool and can be used as a weapon. It requires no license. There are several varieties and costs. I for one, would like to see some of our law enforcement members describe thier training and use techniques for these.


I have the 6 D-cell Maglite flash-light. I have it always ready on the side of my homemade bed. In the base, I have a spare bulb, and I have protected the insides from water / corrosion by coating all the electrical connections with dielectric grease (aka, sparkplug grease) and coating all the moving parts with petroleum jelly (aka vasoline).

Because of the flashlight's size, I carry it with the back resting on my shoulder and the light resting in my hand. I have practiced swinging the flashlight in short and long arcs which are similar motions to my twin-stick practices (think flail without the middle chain).

I have also praticed with other medieval weapons ...


----------



## DocWard (Nov 10, 2008)

faithmarie said:


> Has anyone heard of "captain chris"? There is a self defense advertised somewhere and I was wondering if it is worth it
> My son in law does MMA .... but the guy selling the video (somewhere on the web) said his self defense course is better.


Don't waste your money. He is not well looked upon by the members of the martial arts community that I am familiar with. Lots of lofty claims with no proof to back them up.

I would also suggest not purchasing any video course for training, unless it is used as an adjunct to formal lessons. There are nuances that are difficult, if not impossible to get a feel for through video training. At least that is my opinion.



> I bought a couple of base ball bats and put them by the doors.
> Is that wrong.........?:sssh:


A baseball bat is a start, but there are much better weapons out there. They can be clumsy, so if you don't get good contact the first time, you leave yourself kind of open. If you like the idea of using clubs or stick weapons, I would suggest one of the forms of Filipino stick fighting out there. They are very effective and also translate well to both empty hand and some bladed weapon techniques.


----------



## TechAdmin (Oct 1, 2008)

jek1947 said:


> The Flashlight is a useful tool and can be used as a weapon. It requires no license. There are several varieties and costs. I for one, would like to see some of our law enforcement members describe thier training and use techniques for these.


When my Dad was in law enforcement and had to use his flashlight once after he lost hi baton fighting a speed freak. It saved his life.


----------



## faithmarie (Oct 18, 2008)

Thanks DocWard! I guess thats out then. Oh well. I have a lot of pepper spray........ is that any good? I am just looking for something easy. Just lazy I guess.


----------



## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

faithmarie said:


> Thanks DocWard! I guess thats out then. Oh well. I have a lot of pepper spray........ is that any good? I am just looking for something easy. Just lazy I guess.


There is nothing "easy" about beatin' off someone who wishes to do you harm. It will take all your strength that you have in order to save your own life. Martial-arts is nothing like what you see in the movies - that is all "cut-n-pasted" together into one sequence to make it look easy.

If I may suggest, if you want to do a video-training, pickup some TaiChi, TaiBo (Boxing) and similar "exercise videos" and master them. You may not be the best martial artist once mastered, but, at least you will be in good enough physical condition to do battle and not loose-out due to using muscles that you may rarely use.

Weight-training combined with cardiovascular will also help you with stamina.


----------



## faithmarie (Oct 18, 2008)

Thanks NaeKid
Hey ...soooo ........ that MMA stuff is worthless too? When I watched them they spent a lot of time on the floor.


----------



## DocWard (Nov 10, 2008)

faithmarie said:


> Thanks DocWard! I guess thats out then. Oh well. I have a lot of pepper spray........ is that any good? I am just looking for something easy. Just lazy I guess.


A good capsicum spray will slow most attackers, unless they have a high tolerance for pain or are on drugs. On the downside, if they approach from upwind, there is the possibility of blowback incapacitating you.

I understand not wanting to put a lot of effort into it, and there isn't really a need to seek out a black belt, unless you try it and like it. There are a number of self defense courses that are meant to teach what is often called "instinctive response" self defense in short seminar sessions. They often employ what is called a "redman" suit, a heavily padded suit that the "attacker" wears so that the "defender" can aggressively attack in response. Many of these are geared specifically toward women. Krav Maga is another noted martial art that is supposed to be heavy on the instinctive aspect and able to give a solid foundation in a short period of time. I don't have any personal familiarity, but know a few who do and like it. As with many things, these are perishable skills, and need to be practiced to maintain proficiency.

One bit of advice, and it is personal opinion only. You are much better off as a female with a weapon than without, so long as you are trained and confident in its use. The weight and strength disadvantage that most females have against most males makes that a simple truth. Also, while I am not opposed to knowing how to grapple, (MMA, Jujutsu, Brazilian Jujitsu, etc.), I strongly believe that most women would make a mistake going to the ground with a male attacker. They've instituted weight classes in MMA for a reason. Find an art that teaches you how to deal with a ground threat so that you can get back on your feet as quickly as possible.

A lot of grapplers and wrestlers assert that 90% of all fights go to the ground. There has been a body of research that shows that figure to be greatly exaggerated, but one thing is certain. Virtually 100% of all fights start on your feet. And there is no shame in running away when the opportunity presents itself.

I'll get off my soap box now.


----------



## TechAdmin (Oct 1, 2008)

faithmarie said:


> Thanks NaeKid
> Hey ...soooo ........ that MMA stuff is worthless too? When I watched them they spent a lot of time on the floor.


It's not worthless, it's just not great for real world application. A lot of the fundamentals in striking and grappling are actually quite useful, but the majority of the time when a fight makes it's way to the ground it's because it's over. Also taking something to the ground leaves you vulnerable so just not a great idea, unless you know what you're doing when you get down there.


----------



## DocWard (Nov 10, 2008)

Dean said:


> It's not worthless, it's just not great for real world application. A lot of the fundamentals in striking and grappling are actually quite useful, but the majority of the time when a fight makes it's way to the ground it's because it's over. Also taking something to the ground leaves you vulnerable so just not a great idea, unless you know what you're doing when you get down there.


Things to remember about MMA:

It is fought in a ring with a canvas surface, decidedly free of rocks, gravel, tree roots, broken bottles and other things that can slice you up and cause you serious pain.

There are rules against specific attacks.

The opponents don't have a "friend" or friends just waiting to jump in.

Is it worthless? Not by a long shot. Is it the be-all-and-end-all of martial arts? I don't think so.


----------



## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

faithmarie said:


> Thanks NaeKid
> Hey ...soooo ........ that MMA stuff is worthless too? When I watched them they spent a lot of time on the floor.


I totally agree with the posts above mine. There are no "worthless" skills when it comes to fighting off an attack. You will need to understand "close-combat" as well as "distance-combat" and when to use each.

If you are walkin' down the street and someone tries to take you down, you will need to understand what can be done to stay on your feet. Your feet will take you further from the fight than stayin' there and trying to win. There is no shame in flight vs. fight, but, whatever you do, make sure that you cannot be followed.

A good fight instructor will be able to teach you the moves - a good area of your house or yard will help you keep the skills and visiting the class from time-to-time will also keep the skills tuned-in.


----------



## HarleyRider (Mar 1, 2010)

I'll just have my teenage stepdaughter talk them to death. :soapbox2:


----------



## TechAdmin (Oct 1, 2008)

HarleyRider said:


> I'll just have my teenage stepdaughter talk them to death. :soapbox2:


I would give up. :club:


----------



## 11D20 (Jun 12, 2010)

*Hand to hand*

I trained in Isshinryu Karate while in the Army..I started it in 1973 and continued in it till 1991...I attained a 3rd degree black belt and taught at my own business, as well as seminars in another state....I believe in self-defense whole heartedly....There is NOT one self-defense method out there for everyone...It is the person the fits the martial art...But I can say this...Isshinryu Karate has been modified and is now the standard system that is taught to the U.S. Marines as of the mid-90's......It is a simple system to learn and it is the system that Tatsuo Shimabuku taught to the Officers of the Japanese Military during WW2....they were fierce fighters, needless to say...After WW2, Master Shimabuku taught the U.S. Marines at Camp Henderson and is still taught there today....

anything can be used as a weapon....Keys, fingers, spit, hats, handkerchiefs with money in them as a flail, credit cards, anything that is available...becomes a weapon...Most of all, have the warrior instinct and mindset~!

After one masters a system, then when a weapon is placed in a persons hands, like an AR-15, they are then the ultimate weapon....

Places like Gunsite and several others across the nation offer classes to prepare....some of them are even offering a firearm if you enroll now for their class in NV....Worth their weight in gold....
become a warrior, like the Samurai, but only more modern in today's world~!


----------



## model130 (Jun 20, 2010)

If anyone has ever had the good luck,  to be in jail, they know everything is a weapon. A straw to drink from, a well place hand with a ring to the eye. I bought into the Martial Arts BS. I was lucky to have a good instructor. Don't get me wrong.... It is great to keep in shape but your skills. He had all the skills and had trained in Japan and China. He was a sought after body guard. Why? He did not belief that martial arts saves your life. It is street fighting that saves your life. He tauht us Karate and street fighting. Martial arts works in the movies and looks pretty. You can get a series of pretty moves rom a book. The question is... Is do you have the ability to kill. Could you walk out your door and pop a squirrel in the head with your practice pellet gun and toss it in the garbage? If not, you will probably not kill but just talk about self-defense. This is not a dump on martial arts. You will have some skills. But, the most important skill you need is the willingness to kill or incapacitate. Very few people have that. You also need the ability to deal with your mental state when you cross that line. Most trained soldiers never dealt with death. They talk about their training, but the ones that did it, have some mental problems when they get back. No disrespect here about anything. Just a thought. Can you cross the line between what you say you will do and what you can do?


----------



## model130 (Jun 20, 2010)

Maybe I sounded negative. I did not mean to. My point was.... Your ability to fight and win is more important than the skills you think you have. I have seen 12 year old black belts walk out of these studios. Sorry, they just want your money. They are a business like a food store might promise you more energy by buying a caffine drink. Your kid will most likely get hurt real bad when the bad guys hear his "HI" that sensui taught him. A spin kick.... cool in the movies, but a good time to nail your gonads and send you to the floor in disabled pain.


----------



## model130 (Jun 20, 2010)

11D20- 
Dude. If you are correct on your training and I think you never had any, the first thing you learn is the ability to kill. You did not mention that in your post. You can have all the dam training you want. Why would you take some no nothing person behind a desk and jeporize their lifes with a quote about martial arts? This is survival. The best thing a "lay" person can do is bug out. They will get hurt by the 16 year old that had a gun in their ghetto. They will get hurt by the 16 year olds that grew up fighting in a ghetto. I met my wife on line. She lived in frog town in Minneapolis. Gun fire every day and every night. If you are really military and I doubt it, you know these people can't go to a dojo and learn killing skills. You are putting them in harms way. If I owned a survival training center, the first question I would ask is.... "who thinks they can kill someone"? If someone says, "I can't" they are out of there. Let's not sugar coat the ability to survive. It is this site and this is what is talked about. Anyone going to a Martial Arts class will have the ability to get killed when that s&^t does not work. And you know it.


----------



## model130 (Jun 20, 2010)

I guess another apology on my part. I have hit and hurt people, I am 6'3" and 225. About Brett Favars size. I feel good about it. I won. You have to have the ability to do it before you get the training. I can plunge the knife and pull out the serrated edge of the guys stomach. Can you? Think before you cross the line and get violent. You might not come back and be what you are not. Don't buy into self defense. Your mind will need to change and you will never be the same person again. Your first hit will change you. Are you ready for that change? Gonna become democratic rather that Republican? Gonna like rabbits rather than eat them. Think before you commit to survival. It may cost you.


----------



## DocWard (Nov 10, 2008)

To quote Drill Sergeant Hulka in Stripes, "Lighten up, Francis."

I think it is safe to assume that most on this forum understand that there is a specific mindset necessary to survival, and that there is an often unspoken mindset necessary to be willing to take the life of another. Guess what? Often that is not known until the instant the threat is confronted. Veterans of prior combat freeze up, little old ladies and women who never could imagine taking a life kill because they simply don't want to die. The human mind is a funny thing like that.

The best we can do is attempt to be realistic in our expectations and in our preparations. The most important thing we do in prepping is to attempt to anticipate our needs and plan accordingly, along with Plan B and perhaps Plan C. This goes toward food, water, shelter and security. Clearly, practicing to proficiency with those weapons we expect to have at our disposal is one such way we often plan to provide for both food and security, with Plans B and C on the security front being alternate weapons and empty hand techniques.

I can say for a fact that mindsets being "equal," I would rather face a fit martial novice than an unfit martial expert. Regardless of level of physical fitness, muscle memory, experience and knowledge all make for an opponent more likely to cause me physical harm.

So, while having the proper mindset is a vital component to survival, it is not the only component. Bug out? I firmly believe that if getting out of a particular AO increases my chances of survival, then it is dumb not to do so. If there is a point in time where fighting is the only choice, then ideally my choice of weapons is rifles, shotguns, pistols, handheld weapons and empty hand techniques, in that order. To paraphrase Col. Jeff Cooper, the purpose of a pistol is to stop a fight somebody else started, thus my inclination to use longer range weapons to keep bad guys at long range. My empty hand skills are, for me, both a means of physical fitness and a means of last resort.

Finally, remember that bad guys typically prey on the weak, the unaware and the unprepared. A clear showing of awareness, suspicion, and of ability and willingness to use protective measures is every bit as important as any other aspect of survival and prevailing against those who would do violence.


----------



## Expeditioner (Jan 6, 2009)

DocWard said:


> To quote Drill Sergeant Hulka in Stripes, "Lighten up, Francis."
> 
> I think it is safe to assume that most on this forum understand that there is a specific mindset necessary to survival, and that there is an often unspoken mindset necessary to be willing to take the life of another. Guess what? Often that is not known until the instant the threat is confronted. Veterans of prior combat freeze up, little old ladies and women who never could imagine taking a life kill because they simply don't want to die. The human mind is a funny thing like that.
> 
> ...


Well said Doc!!!


----------



## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

Don't know who said it but they said it best..." God Made Man, Col. Colt made him Equal"

I remember about a hundred years ago in the Corps when an instructor said " I know AH-KEY-DO , Kerottie , and jewdo and a few other **** sounding words so don't F*^%%$#* with me..." I was impressed!...

All this kill crap is just that, nobody knows what they will do until the time comes , I'm a shooter, have been all my life, I've trained at nobody's school, but I shoot in IDPA, 3 gun and plain pistol matches, drawing and shooting becomes second nature after a while, muscle memory is a great thing, if I were to have an encounter I have no doubt my training will go into action, will I win? don't know, will worry about that later. but I will not just stand there with my Pee Pee in my hand, simply because training and fear will drive me... and I know if I can get my gun into action I won't go alone... not because I'm tuffer then anybody but because I will react as I've trained..

Nuff said !!


----------



## DocWard (Nov 10, 2008)

Expeditioner, thank you, I appreciate it. I just try to "call 'em like I see 'em."

HB, I couldn't agree more. I have not been to a formal "name" shooting school, but my rifle and pistol training has been courtesy of the U.S. Army, I've been a competitive shotgunner in college and as an amateur-where I have learned from some very smart and talented shooters, and I've picked up additional pistol pointers from a couple of masters, and I attempt to hone my skills as much as time and money allow. I really need to start reloading one of these days. About your instructor in the Corps, with all of his hand-to-hand skill, I am willing to bet that he was also a tremendous rifle shot, being a Marine.


----------



## tom o. (Nov 10, 2009)

Target Focus Training is excellent training. If you can go to a live training all the better but the online and dvd videos are also very good. They have lots of fr*e info including a newsletter. You never look at a tough guy the same after you know how to crush his trachia or take his eye with your thumb. I took my 75 year old dad with me to a live training event. He is the most calm man in the world when in a tough spot. He goes where he wants. No fear of strangers as one might expect in Chicago (murder capitol of the world right now, I think).

I also took my adult kids. My wife is on the list. She is pretty tough already. ; )

Self Defense Training | Tim Larkin | Martial Arts Training - Target Focus Training

I do not get paid to send you to their site. I just want to spread the word.


----------



## wkrbee (Jul 29, 2010)

I was one of those skinny guys always getting picked on in school.When we had the boys,they ,myself and my wife started Kung Fu San Soo.Remember the TV show Kung Fu? That was San Soo.Grandmaster Jimmy Woo's students did the stunts in that show.When the boys hit middle school the usual jockeying for pecking order took place.Both the boys were picked on ONCE.Got the kid in a leverage that hurt like H&*&,but didn't leave any marks.Guess what? Not once did they have any problems with anybody all the way through high school.They have a great attitude,knowing thay can kick most anybodies butt and have nothing to prove.San Soo doesn't rely on programmed lessons and it's quick.If you know 4 lessons,they can be put together 16 different ways.Just about every other martial art comes from Sansoo,they just concentrate on a small part,Karate-strikes,judo-throws.tai-qan do-kicks.
San Soo does it all.The boys are 2nd degree black belts,my wife is a green belt.Me? An old fat 4th degree black belt/Instructor.
Check out San soo.


----------



## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

I believe some of the modern ground fighting techniques are superior to Asian martial arts.


----------



## lexsurivor (Jul 5, 2010)

I have been taking taekwondo since I was 3.(im 15 now) Also I have been taking jiu-jitsu for 2 years now. I only way 105lbs but I have taken down people twice my size. Hand to hand is very useful for when you cant grab a weapon as others have said.


----------



## battleforliberation2534 (Sep 29, 2011)

I've been involved in multiple martial arts for many years. My Kenpo teacher was a very wise, down to Earth man who told me two things that resonate with me til this day.
"It is better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6"
and in regards to preparation:
"You have me beat until I win. How I win is how I train."
Self Discipline is two fold. You need discipline to stick with your craft and practice and you need to know how and when to use it. You must know that you have to be willing to hurt the person more than they are willing to hurt you if you expect to win or survive. Immediately as that person engages you, a decision is made whether you are more willing to impose your will than the attacker.


----------



## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Disarming an attacker*

I was a Deputy Sheriff and owned and operated a Repossession Company for fifteen years prior to retirement.

I averaged dealing with an armed incident about once a month.

While I carried a side arm 24/7 , almost all my armed incidents were within arms reach with little time to react.

I was fortunate in being able to disarm my attackers in multiple incidents.

Fortunately most of them were drunk or unable to produce the weapon before I was on them.

My thinking was this, if I am already at point blank range, I want your weapon not my own. No one wins a point blank shootout!

Get a pardner and practice some disarming technics until they are second nature so you will immediately resort to them

Most of the time the assailant is going to be right there in your face before you know he is armed.


----------



## Wanderer0101 (Nov 8, 2011)

hiking_pop said:


> I see a lot of posts on this and other sites about guns, which I'm all for & own. What I don't see a lot of is anything about preparing if you don't have access to a firearm. I understand that not all of us have been through the military, I have not. Does anyone take any training courses? I'm taking Krav Maga, have been for 7 months now. What I really love about it is the way they train you to be in the mindset of ending it quickly and smartly. It's easy to learn and remember, you don't have to be in gladiator shape to use it. Our facility in San Antonio also holds women's only classes dealing with home invasion scenarios, ATM and putting groceries up/car jacking. Does anybody feel the same as me?


I've always believe that if you have to go hand-to-hand you've made a huge mistake. Any kind of weapon, even if it is improvised, puts you in a much better situation.


----------



## Claymore5150 (Nov 17, 2011)

I've studied quite a bit over the years. What I've learned is that I know just about enough to get myself hurt really bad if I'm not extremely careful.

I will absolutely agree that training will do you A LOT of good. 
It has been said that you will be lucky to remember 10% of what has been drilled into you during a time of duress and the more you know, the better your 10% will be. 
The more you get to put your training into actual practice at full contact/speed, the more you'll realize how much more you need to know to keep from getting yourself hurt.

I'm also gonna go with Hozay by reiterating, in a "standard" every day life, your own situational awareness will count more towards your safety than anything at all. I also second the motion that it's best to be prepared for a gunfight when a knife fight breaks out...if at all possible. 

If guns aren't your thing....wear a belt and take a class to learn how to use it or take your lumps and teach yourself. 
I always wonder how many belts were on board the 9/11 flights...:dunno:


----------



## DocWard (Nov 10, 2008)

Wanderer0101 said:


> I've always believe that if you have to go hand-to-hand you've made a huge mistake. Any kind of weapon, even if it is improvised, puts you in a much better situation.


I suppose there is truth in the old saw that if you find yourself in a fair fight you didn't plan well. However, martial arts training can make that huge mistake or lack of planning a much smaller problem to contend with.

Many martial arts also deal with weapons usage, many of which lend themselves to improvised weapons. Staffs, kali sticks, sai and even edged weapons and kama training can be improvised with everything from broomsticks to serving forks. Canes can be downright deadly, and there is a martial art that has evolved around their usage. Most martial arts I am aware of treat weapons as an "extension of the body," meaning that if you are willing to think outside the box, you can often modify that training for improvising weapons.


----------



## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

DocWard said:


> I suppose there is truth in the old saw that if you find yourself in a fair fight you didn't plan well. However, martial arts training can make that huge mistake or lack of planning a much smaller problem to contend with.
> 
> Many martial arts also deal with weapons usage, many of which lend themselves to improvised weapons. Staffs, kali sticks, sai and even edged weapons and kama training can be improvised with everything from broomsticks to serving forks. Canes can be downright deadly, and there is a martial art that has evolved around their usage. Most martial arts I am aware of treat weapons as an "extension of the body," meaning that if you are willing to think outside the box, you can often modify that training for improvising weapons.


I will do whatever is necessary to stay out of any physical confrontation for several reasons. One is my age, I'm to old. Second is that I know that no mater how good you are or how tough you are there is always some one tougher, smarter, and meaner. Third is all the people I know with martial arts training (including several black belts) that carry guns.

In a post SHTF world there will be no hospitals and no doctors. If you get hurt you will most likely die. I'm sure that before 1900 if someone was hurt on their farm that it was a life threatening event. Even if you survive the injuries it may cause lifelong disabilities that make normal daily chores to stay alive impossible.

There is a lot more to be said, but I will leave it alone.


----------



## DocWard (Nov 10, 2008)

Tweto said:


> I will do whatever is necessary to stay out of any physical confrontation for several reasons. One is my age, I'm to old. Second is that I know that no mater how good you are or how tough you are there is always some one tougher, smarter, and meaner. Third is all the people I know with martial arts training (including several black belts) that carry guns.


I think I mentioned this earlier, but in the interest of full disclosure, I hold a first degree brown belt in Kenpo, one level away from black belt. I still train some, but my skills are not as sharp as they were when I was training and sparring regularly. With that said, I strongly believe that staying out of a physical confrontation is always the preferable route. Sometimes, it is thrust upon us though. In those situations, I would rather have training than not. I know that there are those out there who are "tougher, smarter, and meaner." Does that mean if I were in an altercation with someone I suspect is one or all of those, that I would assume the fetal position and pray for the best? No. If I were unable to extricate myself from the situation, be it through diplomacy or shoe leather on pavement, I would fight with every bit of skill and intensity I have. I believe it is better to fight and have a chance than give up and have no chance at all.

Certainly, bringing a gun to a knife fight, as was said previously, is even more preferable, but sometimes, it just doesn't happen that way.



> In a post SHTF world there will be no hospitals and no doctors. If you get hurt you will most likely die. I'm sure that before 1900 if someone was hurt on their farm that it was a life threatening event. Even if you survive the injuries it may cause lifelong disabilities that make normal daily chores to stay alive impossible.


No doctors? No nurses, nurse practitioners, physicians assistants, paramedics or EMTs? No books or common knowledge of first aid skills? Will it all just disappear? I agree hospitals might disappear, in the sense they will be looted and shells of buildings, but that is in a true post-apocalyptic world. There are smaller SHTF scenarios that mean short term survival is necessary.

I also would assert that getting "hurt" is something that may or may not be life threatening. A penetrating wound to the thoracic cavity, likely. It is still a dangerous wound today, as is a femoral fracture. However, there are any number of smaller "hurts," to include broken bones that, while initially debilitating, are certainly survivable with knowledge and reasonable treatment. Examples would include any number of lacerations that, if left unchecked could mean a bleed out. Some of the lesser traumatic brain injuries are another. Heck, even non-displaced fractures, or certain displaced fractures to extremities, are survivable.


----------



## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

DocWard;

It is better to know martial arts then to not know martials arts. It seems like almost all of the people in my family are well versed in the arts. I've seen enough fights to know something. 

If I get into a fight, the plan is to kill, not injure, knock-out, etc. Well if my plan is to kill, then why would I want to get physical, I will just use a gun.

If you don't kill then expect to be hunted down and the next meeting will not turn out in you're favor.


----------



## DocWard (Nov 10, 2008)

Tweto said:


> If I get into a fight, the plan is to kill, not injure, knock-out, etc. Well if my plan is to kill, then why would I want to get physical, I will just use a gun.
> 
> If you don't kill then expect to be hunted down and the next meeting will not turn out in you're favor.


I can't say I have a "plan" other than to react quickly and violently in order to extricate myself from the situation. I have, as a younger man, been in violent situations. I was able to fight enough to remove myself from the situation, without severe bodily harm to myself or my assailant. I've never felt the need to look over my shoulder as a result, either.

All platitudes aside, if a person's plan is to kill, either by virtue of a firearm or other weapon, then the person should be realistically aware of what the consequences of such actions are, both from a personal perspective and a legal one.


----------



## Nexquietus (Jun 29, 2011)

Just as the best answer to "What gun should I get?" is "The one that fits you best." The same should hold true in the Martial arts. I hold a Black belt in Aiki-Jujutsu, a brown belt in Judo, and have for the past 1 1/2 years been learning Pekiti Tersia Kali, a Filipino blade based martial art. The most important thing a person needs is to find an instructor that is easy to learn from. I have seen both kinds and no matter how "easy" the art, a good instructor makes all the difference. Second thing is to really look at what you want to be learning. Read the book, Meditations on violence by Rory Miller. He does a great job of pointing out that martial "Artists" don't know how to fight out well (generally) and that "Fighters" don't do things all that pretty. Think about it. In your class if you hit your instructor while learning a technique, do you say sorry? In a manner of speaking, you are training to take it easy. Now, I must admit that I find myself saying sorry also, it just comes from a life spent being a bigger guy than others and needing to take it easy. 
War is for warriors, a nice life is for Nice guys. 99% of your time is spent in nice guy mode. It's easier to be able to think into bad guy mode than to live there and be on edge all the time. I'm kind of fragmenting my post here, but I'm following a line of thinking. I guess what I am getting at here is that this is by design a preparedness board. Not a learn how to be a farmer, plumber, doctor, electrician, or any myriad other thing board. Along those same lines we don't need to learn how to be a super killer badass. We learn how to plant a good garden. We learn how to make serviceable gear for a worst case scenario. We learn skills for that worst case and the martial arts aren't any different. Train to do the best you can, not to become what you don't want.

So on the martial arts side (Back to the original topic) my recommendations:
Find something with a practical focus
Find a club or art that at least occasionally spars, full contact is good
Seek weapons training
Read about mindset (Rory Miller's stuff is fantastic, with good stuff on deescalating as well). 
Keep an open mind
Train hard, have fun.

Thanks for reading...

jim


----------



## DocWard (Nov 10, 2008)

Well said.


----------

