# Underground shelter



## NavyKen

Thinking about building a underground shelter. I am finding conflicting information on the lateral strength of cinder-block walls filled with cement and reinforced with re-bar. If there are any structural engineers out there I could use some help. I don't want these walls moving in laterally when the structure is back filled and covered. I want to go down at least eight feet, I would prefer 16 but I need to find out what exactly is down there before I start digging.


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## zorro

Well, I'm certainly not an engineer and will not give any advice.

These guys sell books on concrete masonry basement building : Concrete Masonry Publications - CMACN Online Bookstore

Maybe this e-book can help, I don't know if you can get it from other sources though : 
Wood-Frame House Construction #73 free download - free download online.

Maybe one of the e-books listed here, again I haven't checked the other sources to get them : Scribd

I can give you personal experience though: my house is built on top of a cinder blocks basement. The structure is in place for 40+ years and still is OK. I live in Canada, where temperature drop below -22 F (-30 C) many times every winter. The concrete slab of my house has been built below the water table level and thus the slab and the blocks are always damp. Part of the house is surrounded by soil and is only 10 feet away from a street where fully loaded trucks pass many times every day. The blocks are filled with cement and reinforced with rebars. The blocks sit on the concrete slab, which top is 8 feet below ground level.

Only problem: joints (mortar) that needs to be repaired quite often. This is due to the water table level problem. I must specify that I didn't built this house. I would have installed a French drain + an elastomeric waterproofing membrane on the blocks (I plan to fix that at one point...).


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## NavyKen

Thanks zorro, that's good to hear. Sounds like well sealed reinforced filled blocks will work just fine. all I need now is blocks and LOTS of re-bar. my only other concern is pouring the floor and ceiling slabs. I almost guarantee I will not be able to do it in one pour and I'm sure as hell not having a truck deliver it. The last thing I need is a lot of questions and a noisy county building inspector showing up. "_This is a mighty deep hole ya gots here son... Ya'll gots permit for this here bomb shelter?_"
:gaah:


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## TreeMUPKennel

I'm in the same situation tring to find out how where to build me a shelter of some kind. Been watching your to see when the ideas start rolling in.


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## zorro

Oh, then I hope you don't have nice neighbors like mine, who seem to notice every single detail of my life, except when someone cut my garage door heavy padlock and throw everything around in there!  I'm sure they would call the municipal inspector if I'd be digging anything bigger than a 45 gallons drum. 

You might still want to read about what makes a building resistant to most external factors (which includes earthquakes, strong winds and such). This is discussed in any building engineering book you may find at the nearest public library. Also, there are many e-books and website describing how to build an underground shelter.


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## NaeKid

Zorro, it sounds like you have neighbors like mine. They seem to watch everything that I do and if they feel like I might be slightly out of line, they call in the bylaw officers. But, if someone tries to break into my vehicle or steal something from my yard, no-one ever sees what happens.

*Note:* Out-of-line can include parking my vehicle on my lawn in the front of the house to unload groceries or supplies. Out-of-line can include not having my grass trimmed to their specifications. Out-of-line can include dog-sitting while a friend is out of town for a couple of weeks and not having a Calgary-dog-licence even if the dog is registered in another city.


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## NavyKen

Zorro I have read some of your other posts. If I ever loos my mind and start considering it remind me never to move to Canada.


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## waynemart

I toyed with burying a shipping container for years. They don't do well with dirt piled on top so I decided to pour a slab of concrete over it instead. Check out my You Tube step by step:


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## kogneto

the most recent thing I've found scouring the internet is some classic pdf detailing how to make one out of wood and dirt.

One thing I've heard is that 10' is the maximum distance between supports or the weight of the concrete will eventually cause it to collapse. Especially if is very deep underground. But this seems like it would make for a very awkward living space. 

I like the container wine cellar, but if you were looking for something a little more comfortable for emergency living, would it be possible to connect containers? of course then you have a house made of hallways and I guess that isn't any less awkward. 

Time to find some natural caves


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## TreeMUPKennel

Zorro got love those nosey neighbors Thank goodness I dont have any like that. We live in a very small neighborhood on the edge of it. So that a plus. I have great neighbors we all get along great. Never had any problems even with all my late night **** hunting. Comen home late at night with my hounds or skinning rack with animals on them or my homemade shooting range down behind my house were I shoot sometimes. Were all pretty tight nit around here. With the exception of a few odd balls. No one would bother wondering what was going on if I was digging a bunker. We all joked around before bout building one connecting are properties and running it out to the canel in the woods before.


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## JeepHammer

I have a hill in the backyard, and I've virtually covered one 20' container up and using it as a root cellar,
The second one sits a little further exposed, and still uses the regular double doors as entry way.
The second is the 'Projects' and building storage for tools, ect.

I put floor drains in mine, 
Coated the outside with basement sealer, and pushed them back into holes dug into the hillside and covered them up.

Works very well for me, but I sure didn't spend $12,000+ on them!


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## testhop

ZORRO
remember what gos around comes around .
keep a eye open and that busybody will slip up. and payback is a b****H .


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## hank2222

that why i will never again live where there are h.o.a. in my book there are nothing but a bunch of old women who have nothing better to do than get into everyone life and become a problem with there little stupid ways of life..

that why i tell one person never live where a hoa is for they are not worth the money in my book..


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## JeepHammer

The neighbors down the road build a 'Root Cellar' out of old truck tires.
Got paid to haul them off!

Rammed earth in them for walls, and it works VERY well.
Not sure what he used for roof, looks like wooden beams and tin on the inside.

If I had it to do over again, I'd put pitch to the doors in mine instead of elaborate floor drains.
They were kind of a pain in the butt to do, but I was thinking 'Shelter' instead of storage, and I put a crapper & shower in one so I could stay out there while in the early stages of building.
That mind set kind of stayed with me when doing the second one we now use as food storage.

Pitch towards the door would have been plenty...

I wouldn't put a DESCENDING ramp into it either, it's a pain to keep clear of leaves, snow, ect.


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## questor

these may already be in here, but
you may want to take a look at them

http://www.monolithic.com/

http://www.crestprecastconcrete.com/precast-concrete-box-culverts.htm

http://www.trenwa.com/?gclid=CPrdioiplqICFQcupAodSW4oFA


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## NavyKen

questor, These are good Ideas but the containers only cost between $500.00 and $2000.00 also these raise questions and draw unwanted attention.


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## questor

mine are buried.
No one asked any questions.
anymore than, one day you have containers and the next day they're gone.
I have more than 2000 sq ft of usable space.
and you wouldn't know it's there.
metal rusts. 
what are you using for an entry way?

also the right location counts for a LOT in my book


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## OldCootHillbilly

Goin that deep I'd use arched ceilin, will stand upta the weight lots better. Besure an have a drainage system all around it. 

I'd maybe build the walls with block set crosswise two wide say ever 4 ta 6 feet formin a T all the way around ta help stop any shiftin. 

I ain't a engineer but seen some stuff built deep before an thats how they do it. Also, Pour the floor first an put rerod er large bolts in it where the block meets, better yet, use say 4 foor rerod up inta yer block, then rerod them tagether an fill with cement.


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## hank2222

as far as metal rusting ..there is diff coatings you can use ..line-x-is the top of the line in my book ..along with sherman willains tar paint to coat the outside the metal before you burie the tank ..

plus good wide drainage field around the area it design to help keep the water that does come down away from the top to the bottom into the drain field around the metal building ..


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## questor

that's why I went with the monolithic domes.
once I found a location that suited my needs it took a minimum of work to clear the area (5 days). Put in drainage and foundation (about 5 days).
install the domes (2 weeks). cover the whole thing up (a week)
The house took a little longer as it was stick built. The shop is a Steel building.
total cost for the storm cellar $32,000 materials and labor, split 5 ways.
We do have containers . . .as garden sheds and tool storage and such.
We even use three (a 30 and two 20) side by side by side for an "Office/Game room.

I have a friend, in Washington, that lives in 16 containers that (he claims) go down 5 levels. I do know they go up 3 and down at least 3.
He told me that he started getting leakage problems after about 5 years in the deeper ones and one, that was off by it's self, collapsed after a year with only 6 feet of earth on top. It seems all the support is only in the corners where the containers stack on top of one another. He owned a RinoLiner franchise.
He had to sand blast each one that was going to be coated. otherwise it don't stick correctly.


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## hank2222

first off is containers are a bad idea to try as a shelter even with a semi arched top over the container top unit along with tring to bury it with dirt and even a semi modications on the top to support it ..it better go with a product like monilithic domes or raduis defense or utah shelter companys to be building underground system or a more squared building like the american bomb shelter company 

second off drainage has to be done right the first time and not trying to redone at a later date..

third .. ..rinoliner is a not a good product in my book.i done a lot of research on the line -x- product line and found it in my own personal opinion it a better product than rinoliner


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## questor

Pre-Cast Concrete Box Culverts for Grain Reclaim, Cattle Pass and More


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## kbscobravert

We use shipping containers for bunker systems all the time. The key is to flip the container over. The roofs are not designed to support weight except at the corners. The floors however support tons and tons. When we flip a container it generally has 3-4 of earth above it to be able to withstand a direct 107mm rocket or 81mm mortars. The insides are reinforced just as a precaution. I have seen a few we have done without the center reinforcement and the ceiling (the floor) looks great.


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## unclebob

If you look around a bit you may find the cast concrete blocks that act as forms. Very similar to the foam blocks. That would be stonger and still allow for DIY. The foam concrete form blocks would be stong enough once filled also, I just wonder about the water proofing if the foam surface.


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## thunderdan19

I got some bad news for the OP. If you dig down in HR, VA, you're gonna have a swimming pool. It's gonna be near impossible to seal anything up well enough that close to sea level. And if you somehow manage to, it'll actually float up...


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## NavyKen

Yes in this area water is only six feet down. But I am only _STATIONED_ here I retire before long and that's when I will build.


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## diablo

You don't want to dig lower than the high water table for your area.

Here are plans for building an underground bunker using cement filled blocks reinforced with rebar. Basically the company offers the plans for free, in hopes you will buy their products to complete it.

Home:
American Bomb Shelter - the best underground steel reinforced concrete bomb shelter kit available

Plans:
http://www.americanbombshelter.com/manuals/ASR-bomb-fallout-shelter-kit.pdf

I would of already built one except I live in FL and when I first moved here I was putting in a fence and hit water with in 2 feet. I've decided I'm just going to do something similar to a berm house. Where it's 2-3 feet underground and then you completely cover the exposed areas, except the entrance with earth.

Something along the lines of the below image, except I plan to use the double doors. I also plan to build something like 2000 sq ft in size. Which is possible, as I already spoke with the company about it and when I'm ready I will get plans specific for it. I just need to find a piece of property to do it, as I currently live in an upscale deed restricted community and there's no way they will approve such.


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## Virgil_cain

*Pre-Cast Culvert Bunkers - Questions*



questor said:


> these may already be in here, but
> you may want to take a look at them
> 
> Monolithic ? Home of the Monolithic Dome
> 
> Precast Concrete Railroad & Box Culverts | Crest Precast | La Crescent, Minnesota
> 
> Welcome to Trenwa


Questor,

I agree that a waterproof, concrete, underground shelter is the gold standard for an SHTF dwelling. Really, we're talking about a bunker here and that's exactly what you want.

However, got a question for you on your approach. I can see the value of the pre-cast concrete culverts, but I see a few issues that I wonder how you solved.

1.) A pre-cast culvert is basically a concrete box with two open ends. My question - what did you do about the open ends? Minimally, I'd like to buy a concrete box with at most one open end, that way I could buy two and I could join them at the open ends and end up with a larger closed six sided box. Is this what you did or did you cast the "ends" in place?

2.) To get more square feet I could see the need to join two or more pre-cast culverts. I know they have tongue and grove joints at the ends, but did you do this and if so did you have any problems getting the joints to be waterproof? If so, what did you do?

3.) Did you coat the outside of the culverts with any sort of waterproofing to ensure a dry underground space? I'm thinking I might want to spray on the green elastomeric stuff I see builders spraying on in-ground basements. What do you think of that?

Appreciate any insight you might provide.

Thanks,


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## questor

1
Actually, the company we got these from do supply 'end caps'
and access methods and they seal up quite nicely. 
http://www.hansonsilo.com/culverts.php

2
the tongue and groove joints have a built in seal in all the joints
a sort of a tar or rubber substance that you could see ooze out
as the pieces were put together. Before it was all covered, we 
poured tar in the seams and covered them with 1 foot wide strips of 
plastic across the top and 3/4 of the way, or better, down each side.
our drainage worked fine three years ago when we had some bad rains 
in the area. Turns out we DID pick the right spot to build!

3
we just left ours 'Au Natural' and it's been in place for almost 
seven years now. No leaks, drips or seepage that we've seen.
and no cracks! The manufacturer gave us a 50 year warranty 
against leakage. We also have 4 monolithic domes 
(with two more going in) incorporated into it.

we're deep enough that the temp stays a workable 54 degrees.

we are also, now, experimenting with below grade 'Earth Bag' construction


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## Virgil_cain

Thanks for the info Questor. This seems like a very efficient method to build an underground shelter of some significant size. 

Did you do any special site preparation, like putting down gravel, any special backfill, french drains, etc? 

If you don't mind me asking, how deep below grade did you go?

Thanks,


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## Clarice

I envy you guys that can have a underground shelter. Our water table is so high here there is no way we can afford to do what is necessary. Don't know what we will do in case of nuke attack. Pray I never have to find out.


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## Virgil_cain

Clarice said:


> I envy you guys that can have a underground shelter. Our water table is so high here there is no way we can afford to do what is necessary. Don't know what we will do in case of nuke attack. Pray I never have to find out.


Well, you can always build a concrete structure above ground (or in ground as far as your water table will permit) and then mound up earth around and on top of it. You see munitions bunkers constructed in this fashion. I agree given the choice I'd go underground, but you got to do what you got to do. You can definitely mound up enough earth for an effective fallout shelter. I like below grade because it is more stealthy, but you can even make an above mounded earth shelter stealthy if you're prepared to move enough earth (basically you end up making your own hill). Expensive unless you've got your own earth moving equipment or have friends and family that do.


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## questor

the group I'm with are experimenting with these above ground and below
after some research, it seems VERY promising, inexpensive and fairly easy

Earthbag Building Index
Green Home Building: Natural Building Techniques: Earthbag


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## Virgil_cain

questor said:


> the group I'm with are experimenting with these above ground and below
> after some research, it seems VERY promising, inexpensive and fairly easy
> 
> Earthbag Building Index
> Green Home Building: Natural Building Techniques: Earthbag


I read your earthbagbuilding website and it was very interesting. It made me think of something that my grandparents did back in the 1970's in a completely different application.

Back in the 1970's, my grandparents had a very modest lake cabin (a shack almost) on a fairly decent sized lake. They had problems with shore erosion and they decided to build a "seawall". They looked at several different construction techniques, mainly things based on cinder block construction (we had lots of family members who were concrete guys and masons). The problem with a cinder block sea wall is you need to put in a pretty deep foundation otherwise the water will eventually undermine it and the wall will collapse into the water.

About that time, they noticed a sea wall down the lake that seemed to be built out of exceeding regular sized rock. On closer inspection we saw that the rock was concrete in these fairly uniform sized pillow shapes.

We talked to the property owner and he revealed what he had done. When the lake was let down annually he had simply stacked 60lb bags of quikrete into a wall. When the water level was allowed to rise, the water seeped into the bags, and hardened the concrete into interlocking concrete pillows. After awhile the paper bags deteriorated and were washed away. It left a very heavy, very solid, and good looking "rock" wall when finished. Apparently back in the 60's and 70's Quikrete actually had a little "how-to" on how to build a wall in this fashion. The interesting thing was that allowing the concrete to set like this (i.e. concrete powder in a bag with water soaking through) actually produced a much stronger concrete than what you get with traditional methods. Also, according to my memory of the quickrete how-to, this method was not limited to sea walls. You could use it anywhere and simply hose down the stacked bags every day for some number of weeks and get the same results (and in fact, I've seen unopened bags of quickrete left for long periods in damp environments like under a crawl space and indeed it does harden eventually into a very hard bag shaped lump of concrete).

It made me wonder if this technique could be combined with your earthbagging technique. It might be especially useful in areas where good bag fill material is hard to come by (where I live in the southeast most of our soil is almost 100% red clay which is a terrible fill material for earthbagging). Also, one would presume that the hardened concrete bags would be both denser and stronger than an earth filled bag, which would be useful in a fallout shelter situation. I've started to look around the Quickrete website to see if they still have a how-to or whitepaper on this technique, but so far I haven't turned up anything.

I haven't run up any figures on the cost, so that may or may not be an issue.


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## Virgil_cain

I found a white paper on the Quikrete website about the type of wall I'm talking about. Apparently Quikrete now has a specific product for this application called Quikrete Rip Rap. Here's a PDF file on the product:

http://www.quikrete.com/PDFs/Projects/RipRapProjectsAndErosionControl.pdf

You can't easily use the normal bags of Quikrete for this application any more since they now have a plastic liner to keep moisture out. Back in the 1970's this wasn't the case, they were just thick paper bags. The Rip Rap bags does not have this liner.

The cool thing is with this product you can hammer rebar through the bags as you stack them which will will lock everything together when it sets.

Looking on the web, an 80 lbs bag of Quikrete Rip Rap is about $3 per bag if you buy by the pallet, cheaper in larger quantities. 25 bags will build an 8ft long by 2ft high wall (or $75 or less for that much wall). This would be $300 or less for an 8ft by 8ft section of wall. Definitely more expensive than earth filled bags, but it does have some advantages in strength and density, and might be particularly interesting where good fill earth is hard to come by.

I think this kind of wall may need a setback as you build up, so I imagine you might still need a filler material to go inside a double wall built of this material. Something to think about.


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## questor

in one of the "earth Building" sites I read about a guy that actually did use a mix. He didn't give any results as he was still in the construction process.
as to the lakeside beach wall did the water eventually undermine the wall anyways? Or did the neighbor dig down and start 'below grade' ???


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## Virgil_cain

questor said:


> in one of the "earth Building" sites I read about a guy that actually did use a mix. He didn't give any results as he was still in the construction process.
> as to the lakeside beach wall did the water eventually undermine the wall anyways? Or did the neighbor dig down and start 'below grade' ???


We ended up building a wall using this very construction technique in about 1976. As of about 2004 it was still standing. When the lake was let down (it had a power generating dam on it and this was done annually) we did dig about 1 to 2 feet below grade to lay the first course or two of quikrete bags, and we used about a 30 to 40 degree setback into the shore, and we drove rebar into the bags with a sledge hammer. We actually drove the rebar in at about 45 degree angles so that it intersected in an "X" pattern.

So, that wall lasted close to 30 years that I know of and it very well may still stand to this day in a pretty demanding environment. We probably had close to 300' feet of running wall that was perhaps 3' high, maybe a little more. Aside from the weight of the quikcrete sacks, I can't think of an easier construction technique and I know for a fact that nearby cinder block seawalls did not last as long.


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## Tirediron

I have read about earth bag builders using bags of quick mix concrete for foundations, and many "natural" builders add cement to the earthmixes , calling it stabilized earth. you can also fill (pack) tires with earth mixes to build foundations and should be able to dome them with a little planning (like earth bags)


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## HELIXX

I have dreamed of an underground shelter but being underground just does not set well with the Lexxi and I. I guess things change as you get older.
So were doing ours above ground. At least it will keep out the biologicals and the bullets. Were calling it a castle and not a baum shelter. 
Sounds better......:2thumb: We will embelish it on the exterior to actually look like a castle and not have the ominous appearance of an ICBM silo or compound. This is whats called hiding in plain sight. Copied from the British in WWII.
It will also be 8 inches of solid concrete. Even the roof. It will be huge!!! The wife has alot of GF's. 
This will be our home.


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## Marcus

I have a couple of cousins who live in the Texas Panhandle and used to build houses when their farming was over for the year. Since the area is part of Tornado Alley, most homes have some sort of shelter. The technique they used was to dig out the basement walls using either a backhoe or a trencher with a long snout before doing any other construction. They'd then fill the walls with concrete and then lay out the house slab adjacent to the cellar. Before pouring the house slab, they'd dig out the cellar so they could pour the cellar floor at the same time. I don't think they used hydraulic concrete for the walls since they didn't have water table problems, but that's always a possibility. I don't recall exactly how they did the cellar roof, but if the cellar entrance was big enough for a bobcat, I'd pour the roof at the same time I did the walls. Then dig out the dirt and pour the floor.


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## testhop

NaeKid said:


> Zorro, it sounds like you have neighbors like mine. They seem to watch everything that I do and if they feel like I might be slightly out of line, they call in the bylaw officers. But, if someone tries to break into my vehicle or steal something from my yard, no-one ever sees what happens.
> 
> *Note:* Out-of-line can include parking my vehicle on my lawn in the front of the house to unload groceries or supplies. Out-of-line can include not having my grass trimmed to their specifications. Out-of-line can include dog-sitting while a friend is out of town for a couple of weeks and not having a Calgary-dog-licence even if the dog is registered in another city.


 Ihad that problum back when i first moved in .
the way i fixed it wasi kept a eye openfor them to goof up and a had the cops over to there house ever late party , ever fight any thing. and here comes the law soon thay got the idea now we have peace.


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## crowneagle

CAUTION! Be careful about using Quikrete Rip Rap for retaining walls. It's not made for that because it's strictly a sand/portand mix; which is much weaker than a standard concrete mix. Also the plastic liner in normal quickrete mixes is not a problem. It actually, in the end, helps make the concrete stronger by lengthening the hydration process. You must be extremely careful about using products for which they are not intended. Concrete is a science; not a hobby.


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## gabbyj310

Ok friends.I've wanted a underground home(one day) but in the mean time I had decided that a "container" put into a small hillside would do for a tornado shelter and storage/root cellar..Where I live in Kentucky was a "strip" mine about 50/60 years ago.Course it's been reclaimed and I have some huge trees but,digging down to plant a few trees I have found a small line of crappy looking rock/coal looking shale about 1/2 in thick.Since I'm like everyone else on here and need to buy more "preps" I just can't find anyone that will give me "real"advice on this.If I "flip" the container over and coat it,also re-enforce the now bottom/sides and use a good drainage system on the outside on a bed of gravel this should make a reasonable tornado shelter and can also be used as storage???I would have the door almost even with the outside corner and some side/top panels to keep the dirt from falling in.I would like lights and maybe a camper toilet in case I need to be in their for more than just a few minutes.I'm looking at reasonable(very)..your suggestions are welcome...Now everyone there is just ME no SO to help out...have to hire it all done.


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## HamiltonFelix

Lot's of info out there, lots of methods. Lots of disagreement on what's best. But at least we know it is possible on a shoestring budget.

BTW, I met Mike Oehler at a preparedness expo in 1998 or 99. He was the only guy there who was barefoot.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...round+house+book&sprefix=$50+and+up+u,aps,287


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## unbill

I have a 2600 sq ft underground bunker built from concrete blocks filled with re-bar
and concrete. My web site is www.baconhillbunker.com. If you go to the forum 
there you can ask any construction questions you may have. I would not recommend using cinder blocks as they are much weaker than concrete blocks. My bunker is totally self sufficient and was built after 911 with a 40 person capacity.


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## sirdavid

unbill said:


> I have a 2600 sq ft underground bunker built from concrete blocks filled with re-bar
> and concrete. My web site is www.baconhillbunker.com. If you go to the forum
> there you can ask any construction questions you may have. I would not recommend using cinder blocks as they are much weaker than concrete blocks. My bunker is totally self sufficient and was built after 911 with a 40 person capacity.


Your website is gone. I'm interested in what you did.
Did you have your design made by a certified engineer?
I like the size of what you made.
Is it still problem free?


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## BillS

I like the idea of burying a shipping container into a hillside for use as a root cellar. That's awesome.

I hate the idea of living in an underground bunker. To me, it's a death trap. I don't know how you get enough air in one just to live. And we're not even talking burning wood or kerosene to heat it. 

I think it's a lot more doable if it's mostly buried in a hillside and you have enough natural ventilation. I like the idea of adding a big enough selection of random young trees and shrubs to hide the part that's not buried.


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## weedygarden

BillS said:


> I like the idea of burying a shipping container into a hillside for use as a root cellar. That's awesome.
> 
> I hate the idea of living in an underground bunker. To me, it's a death trap. I don't know how you get enough air in one just to live. And we're not even talking burning wood or kerosene to heat it.
> 
> I think it's a lot more doable if it's mostly buried in a hillside and you have enough natural ventilation. I like the idea of adding a big enough selection of random young trees and shrubs to hide the part that's not buried.


I agree that they could be a death trap. Like any home, I would not build it with one entrance. Two entrances makes it easier to breach and diminishes security, but also makes it easier to escape.

I don't like the idea of burying a container. How long before it rusts? How do you shore it up so the top doesn't collapse? I have seen photos of these that people have buried, but I think concrete would be sturdier.

I know a woman whose parents are Mormons. Some of her extended family from her polygamous grandfather live in cave homes near Blanding, Utah. Her father told me that in the far depth of the cave, it is dark, quiet, and you can lose track of time. I am trying to post an image of a similar home, lets see if it works. There are other places where people have dug into limestone to create homes and facilities.


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## TheLazyL

gabbyj310 said:


> ... a "container" put into a small hillside would do for a tornado shelter and storage/root cellar....


A containers door's swing out. Tornado debris would block the doors from opening trapping you inside.


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## Viking

At one time we were considering having an earth berm home. I used to do concrete form setting and so I had a lot of great understanding of the use of rebar and foundations. When I was doing the research for my walls I talked to many people that had done both concrete block and poured walls, I even looked at an earthberm home to get some ideas. But the one thing that was told to me by a guy that has had decades of experience was that he had seen block walls blown out when the soil had become saturated to where it would flow and he recommended concrete as being the best. If I were to have a concrete roof I would use the cable pre-stress route, it's expensive but it really increases the load strength. The earthberm home I looked at had what looked like cardboard covering on the outside walls and roof, only what would be hollow was filled with water expandable clay (forgot the name of that due to a brain fart) and tons of 1/2"- gravel filled the space between the earth and cardboard covering the walls and roof. The pictures I've posted are of our walls, there is 9 yards of concrete in the footing for a cantilever wall that is 10" thick both have crosshatched 1/2" rebar.. I made the slip forms which are leapfrogged to make individual pours. We are no longer considering an earthberm home but I may use this as a greenhouse/ garage/shop, meanwhile it give me a bit more space to do things on the side of our hill.


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## weedygarden

Viking said:


> .... The earthberm home I looked at had what looked like cardboard covering on the outside walls and roof, only what would be hollow was filled with water expandable clay (forgot the name of that due to a brain fart) and tons of 1/2"- gravel filled the space between the earth and cardboard covering the walls and roof.


I am wondering if you are talking about bentonite?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bentonite



> Uses
> 
> Bentonite used as cat litter
> 
> Creating a bentonite slurry for fining after wine pressing
> The main uses of bentonite are for drilling mud, binder (e.g. foundry-sand bond, iron ore pelletizer), purifier, absorbent (e.g. pet litter), and as a *groundwater barrier*.[2] As of around 1990, almost half of the US production of bentonite was used for drilling mud.[2]


Bentonite is in the soil in the Denver area. There was a section of homes on one block that were all torn down due to massive cracks. Before new homes were built, there were many loads of soil removed.


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## Viking

weedygarden said:


> I am wondering if you are talking about bentonite?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bentonite
> 
> Bentonite is in the soil in the Denver area. There was a section of homes on one block that were all torn down due to massive cracks. Before new homes were built, there were many loads of soil removed.


That's it, hey, at my age I do have an excuse for those occasional brain farts.


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