# Milk - Doesn't do a body good



## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

I am not a milk drinker, never have been and never will be. I remember a nutritionist once telling me that the benefits of milk were highly exaggerated and based on unproven assumptions and not scientific fact. This article seems to support that. Doesn't surprise me at all either, especially in a country where the dollar always trumps science, health and reality.

http://drhyman.com/blog/2013/07/05/...+Lack+of
+Evidence+for+Milk's+Benefits+#close



> There is no biological requirement for cow's milk. It is nature's perfect food but only if you are a calf. The evidence of its benefits is overstated, and the evidence of its harm to human populations is increasing.
> 
> The white mustached celebrities paid by the Dairy Council promote the wonders of milk in their "Got Milk" ads. Scientists are increasingly asking, "Got Proof?" Our government still hasn't caught on, in part because of the huge dairy lobby driving nutrition guidelines. When I once lamented to Senator Harkin that all we wanted to do was to make science into policy, he cocked his head and with a wry smile and said, "that would make too much sense."
> 
> ...


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## gabbyj310 (Oct 22, 2012)

You know Sentry,there is soooo much hype and garbage on what to eat/drink and NOT to eat and drink.it rattles the brain.I can find 25 reports that says milk is a MUST.I think we as people should take it ALL with a grain of salt and to each his own. The same goes with meat and fish,too much.Sugar, red dye, and we could all talk about liquor.Smokers and non-smoker over the past few years too.While I've never smoked and hate to smell it too,my gradfather in law smoked up until he was 93(yep it will kill you)and it does kill my breathing....So there you go. I think with all the CRAP they add to everything nowdays we should all try to get back to less of ANY kind of additives period!!!!Common Sense is what WE should be all about!!!!!


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

This could come right from PETA. Cows are enslaved and kept in horrific conditions. The way to free them is to attack the demand for milk. Milk is a good source of protein, vitamins, and other nutrients. After it hits the fan we'll go back to needing a high calorie, high fat diet to support a lifestyle of hard, physical work.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

I would submit, under the umbrella of common sense, that consuming the breast milk of another animal is bizarre to say the very least. People would gag at the thought of walking up to a stranger and sampling her breast milk but consider drinking the breast milk of a cow or a goat to be perfectly normal. Like I said, I don't really drink milk because and I am a very healthy person who has suffered in no way from avoiding it. I just love how the government ingrains in elementary school kids that something is good or something is bad and those people spend their rest of their lives convinced that it is true.


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## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

For me, it's Quality Of Life.

I'd be sad if I couldn't have a tall glass of milk with:
- A bowl of ice cream
- A candy bar
- A good steak (beer is a valid substitute at times)

Think of all the all the times you smile when you see a kid (or a hot blonde) wearing a milk mustache.


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## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

Sentry18 said:


> I would submit, under the umbrella of common sense, that consuming the breast milk of another animal is bizarre to say the very least.


I did learn in an Anthropology class years ago that it is an oddity both in practice as well as biology that allows us to drink milk past our weaning days. We're the only species with a large population that isn't lactose intolerant. BTW, cats like it but in general they can't handle it.

Also, it's generally only those with European ancestry that can drink milk. Peoples from most other parts of the world can't drink milk.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

"Back in the day" milk was a great way to give kids the calcium and needed nutrients. It was as easy as milking the family cow. Now we can give a child a gummy vitamin and boom they have it all! 

Like BillS said, when SHTF we will go back to old fashion diets because of the need for the calories and fat.


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## Coastal (Jun 27, 2013)

I agree, cows milk is for baby cows. I drink vanilla almond milk for a substitute. Another benefit to almond is it is 7ph unlike acidic cow milk.


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## lovetogrow (Jan 25, 2011)

Breastfeeding became a 'shameful' thing to do and grown women in the 1950's dared not even say the word pregnant  instead they said P.G. in it's place (a few here may recall that).

Well no wonder there was a major shift from nursing children to bottle feeding with all that 'shame' women had attached to their bodies if they dared nurse their babies, and gaaawd forbid if they ever nursed even in the most chaste way in public (been there). Hence a huge shift to cow's milk, formula and the like. Big bucks, big business that indoctrinated parents and kids in the school system(every school had a milk program) to drink lots and lots of milk and parents bought in.

I love a tall cold glass of milk with a scrumptious piece of chocolate mousse cake on occasion, and my kids used to say shake the jug Ma shake the jug (instead of skimming the cream from our cow's milk for butter). My grown children are all very much more informed today, so not a whole lot of milk aside from coconut milk in the grandchildren's diets and every child was/is breastfed.

Hells Bells the shaming of chaste nursing mothers in public continues today! If I may take liberty here Sentry and post this link as I don't think is far off topic:

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/07/05/hollie-mcnish-breastfeeding_n_3552062.html


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## Coastal (Jun 27, 2013)

Grimm said:


> "Back in the day" milk was a great way to give kids the calcium and needed nutrients.


That's what the large dairy special interest groups want you to think, dairy shouldn't even be a food group. The calcium in milk is a bit of a farce too. 

http://saveourbones.com/osteoporosis-milk-myth/


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## PrepN4Good (Dec 23, 2011)

I haven't drunk milk in years... IMHO, it's only good for making cheese & butter.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

*I am not sure*



Grimm said:


> "Back in the day" milk was a great way to give kids the calcium and needed nutrients. It was as easy as milking the family cow. Now we can give a child a gummy vitamin and boom they have it all!
> 
> Like BillS said, when SHTF we will go back to old fashion diets because of the need for the calories and fat.


Grimm, I have always felt that a simple vitamin is not enough. I had a debate in college during speech class, because I believe our food is so over processed that we really do not get much nutrition from it. I don't just take a one a day vitamin, I take a one a day (sometimes 2 two a day) and glucosomine, calcium, vitamin B, C, D, E, kelp (radiation protection), and I also try to eat fresh fruits and vegetables. I know anyone would be hard pressed to get a young child to take more than a one a day. I am not nearly as good as it sounds though. I love sweets and I have to really resist to not eat them. Ever been to a wedding and declined the cake? I have.

As a kid, we were very poor. After mom died when I was six, the evil grandmother had her ways, and one was that she didn't serve us very much milk. A gallon of milk could last a week or so (4 kids, 3 or 4 adults). We had milk with our breakfast cereal (oatmeal, cream of wheat, or cornmeal mush, good food storage type breakfast) and we had milk with our coffee (yes, from the time I was six). At school, we had a morning break and had a cup of milk. We received commodities and powdered milk was included. We never drank it, but it was used in cooking (much as my food storage p. milk).

One of the differences between us and most of the rest of the kids was that we were very thin. I always wondered if we had had a glass of milk with each meal, instead of a glass of water, how much difference it would have made in our weight? BTW, we were very healthy and I had one, maybe two cavities total by the time I graduated from high school. We did not take vitamins. But we had a huge garden, canned it and ate from that for the rest of the year in addition to canning enough fruit to eat every day.

My sister has found as an adult that if she partakes in dairy, she gets a sinus infection. I have known many people who were lactose intolerant.

I am also concerned about how strong my bones were and are. I do take a good calcium supplement, but it is a concern. And I try to drink milk because of the calcium. I do not get sinus infections or any other sickness from milk that I can tell.

I have heard that cow's milk is really not good for us, but is it someone's hype? I like BillS's rationale about it being driven by PETA and such.

There are other foods that have calcium, such as broccoli and almonds.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Coastal said:


> That's what the large dairy special interest groups want you to think, dairy shouldn't even be a food group. The calcium in milk is a bit of a farce too.
> 
> http://saveourbones.com/osteoporosis-milk-myth/


Personally, I don't drink milk. It interacts with my thyroid medication and makes me violently ill. I can't even take a calcium supplement for the same reasons. We do have milk in the house in various forms for cooking, baking and Roo.

My views on drinking milk are based on generations of family experience dating back to before my family came to this country.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

Sentry18 said:


> People would gag at the thought of walking up to a stranger and sampling her breast milk but consider drinking the breast milk of a cow or a goat to be perfectly normal.


I would consider walking up to a stranger and sampling her breast-milk ... the only problem I would guess is the broken nose and two black eyes after her husband was done with me


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Cows milk is for calves, horse milk is for foal,...... The major clue to the facts here should be proponents of "healthy" eating say eat whole foods. the dairy bureau wants people to drink skim milk, why because it is better business to sell a waste produce than dispose of it. A study was done about 20 years ago in which it was discovered that skim milk does contain calcium, but that it was not absorbable in the human body. the calcium found in cream & butter fat how ever was. Believe what ever you want as long a fools buy skim milk it keeps cream and butter cheaper.


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## MDsapper (Mar 12, 2013)

drinking milk in basic training helped me get rid of the severe shin splints that i was suffering from


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## biobacon (Aug 20, 2012)

Well every one else has put there two cents in so here's mine. Last week I said to hell with it and eat a bit more of some foods Ive been trying to stay away from. I worked out harder and boom, I lost 3lbs last week. Now I know I shouldn't do that all the time, but heck, every now and then some protein and carbs are needed in larger amounts. I know native americans did just fine without milk after infancy for 14,000 years at least. On the other hand I like it, as I like cheese and butter. Is processed factory made anything good for you? Duhh. But conversely I have rapidly cut my milk and cheese by about 60% (and soda by about 80%) and have lost almost 30lbs. So conclusion, I don't have a frekin clue as to whats right other then keep things in moderation and get out and get some exercise but hey you already knew that didn't you? LOL


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Milk isn't good for you but NOT for the reasons in Sentry's article.
Cows are pumped full of hormones and chemicals.if you've ever been to those factory farms,
you might have noticed the 18" RATS here and there.said hormones can over long exposure
produce morbid obesity and chemically induced homosexuality syndrome.the milk itself can
keep the stomach from digesting things properly and on occasion make for a nasty hystimene 
reaction in older folks.now having said all that:

*I LOVE CHEESE!*


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## biobacon (Aug 20, 2012)

produce morbid obesity and chemically induced homosexuality syndrome

? lol


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

i been telling people this for years. im often surprised at how upset people get when you tell them milk isnt all that. cite a double blind study and some people get genuinely angry. people dont like their cultural myths messed with..


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

Magus said:


> Milk isn't good for you but NOT for the reasons in Sentry's article.
> 
> chemically induced homosexuality syndrome
> 
> *I LOVE CHEESE!*


Just being a smarta** here, but is homosexuality a syndrome?

Somehow I never considered that as a possibility for why there seems be about 10% homosexuality. Sexuality is related to hormones.


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

Sentry18 said:


> I would submit, under the umbrella of common sense, that consuming the breast milk of another animal is bizarre to say the very least.


I would submit, under the umbrella of science, that the* rapid *adaptation of lactose tolerance in European and some East African adult populations conferred VERY significant survival advantages.

The only way this adaptation can sweep through a population is to confer a very high survival advantage to ADULTS who can drink milk, thus enabling them to have more children than their lactose intolerant neighbors.

If there is no nutritional value in milk and milk, as contended by these authors, increases the incidence of cancer, type 1 diabetes, intestinal bleeding, iron deficiency, allergy, asthma, and eczema then it's quite likely that milk drinking adults would have been dropping dead or being sidelined with illnesses and thus not have had more children than their non milk drinking neighbors.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

I elect Bobbb to begin drinking the breast milk of a huge variety of animals until he finds the perfect survival food. Perhaps a Lemur or a Kitty. Something I can put in my bug out bag and attach a straw too.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

Bobbb said:


> I would submit, under the umbrella of science, that the* rapid *adaptation of lactose tolerance in European and some East African adult populations conferred VERY significant survival advantages.
> 
> The only way this adaptation can sweep through a population is to confer a very high survival advantage to ADULTS who can drink milk, thus enabling them to have more children than their lactose intolerant neighbors.
> 
> If there is no nutritional value in milk and milk, as contended by these authors, increases the incidence of cancer, type 1 diabetes, intestinal bleeding, iron deficiency, allergy, asthma, and eczema then it's quite likely that milk drinking adults would have been dropping dead or being sidelined with illnesses and thus not have had more children than their non milk drinking neighbors.


the negative effects of milk work over time and do not take people out before their prime breeding years. in short, that dog dont hunt...


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## biobacon (Aug 20, 2012)

Sentry18 said:


> I elect Bobbb to begin drinking the breast milk of a huge variety of animals until he finds the perfect survival food. Perhaps a Lemur or a Kitty. Something I can put in my bug out bag and attach a straw too.


I think Bobb would be more interested in trying out the breast milk of different ethnicities, I think he would enjoy that more :factor10::factor10:


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

FatTire said:


> the negative effects of milk work over time and do not take people out before their prime breeding years. in short, that dog dont hunt...


And yet we see the positive health effects in a bunch of old broads.

To expand on the above:

Lactase persistence is an autosomal-dominant trait that is common in European-derived populations. A basic tendency for lactase persistence to increase from the southeast to the northwest across European populations has been noted, but such trends within countries have not been extensively studied. *We genotyped the C/T−13910 variant (rs4988235) that constitutes the putatively causal allele for lactase persistence (T allele representing persistence) in a general population sample of 3344 women aged 60-79 years from 23 towns across Britain.* We found an overall frequency of 0.253 for the C (lactase non-persistence) allele, but with considerable gradients of decreasing frequency from the south to the north and from the east to the west of Britain for this allele. Daily sunlight was positively related to C (non-persistence) allele prevalence. However, sunlight exposure and latitude are strongly correlated, and it was not possible to identify which is the primary factor statistically underlying the distribution of lactase persistence. The C/T−13910 variant (rs4988235) was not related to drinking milk or bone health (although drinking milk itself was protective of bone health), and was essentially unrelated to a wide range of other lifestyle, health and demographic characteristics.* One exception was general health being rated as being poor or fair, for which there was an odds ratio of 1.38 (1.04, 1.84) for women homozygous for the C allele*; on adjustment for latitude and longitude of place of birth, this attenuated to 1.19 (0.87, 1.64). The lactase persistence variant could contribute to the examination of data for the existence of, and then statistical control for, population substructure in genetic association studies.​
Interesting outcome wouldn't you say? There were significant health disadvantages to these old women who were homozygous for the C allele when compared to the women who had the C and T alleles or two T alleles. These women were shorter, had higher incidences of hip fractures, wrist fractures, and more cataracts.

The ability to metabolize milk presents benefits long past menopause. Now this isn't saying that milk drinking is the agent responsible for these benefits, it's saying that simply having the ability is key. So what to make of 60 year old women in the past? It's quite plausible that family groups with lactase persistence could use the labor of these old women because they were still fit and this resulted in higher survival rates for the family and the children than was experienced by family groups where the old grandmothers were breaking their hips and had to be euthanized or left to die and thus not able to help their family survive.


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## Boomy (Mar 17, 2012)

Sentry18 said:


> I would submit, under the umbrella of common sense, that consuming the breast milk of another animal is bizarre to say the very least. People would gag at the thought of walking up to a stranger and sampling her breast milk but.......


That is a rather big asumption? What does said strainger look like?:factor10:
I would asume that in said scenerio that I'm single, how long has it been:eyebulge:????? 
Is it coming from the source:sssh:?????? 
Big asumptions I tell you........


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

If this is okay, then it doesn't matter what the woman looks like.


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

Sentry18 said:


> If this is okay, then it doesn't matter what the woman looks like.


I like to think that you have an entire vault full of zany photos and that it has taken you an entire lifetime to accumulate your collection and that you're going to make your kids very rich when you pass on and leave this "art" collection to them.

What's amazing is the completeness of your collection, in that you have a photo for every occasion.

If only we could pair up your photos with my hard drives filled with academic studies on every topic, then perhaps the universe would explode.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

I have complete access to government computer databases. All Federal agents really do is collect photos and play solitaire.


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## Wellrounded (Sep 25, 2011)

We drink milk, lots of milk. Two of the members of my family have serious problems with commercial milk but can drink what ever they want of our farm milk.

I really don't see that it's weird to drink the product of another species mammary gland, I'll chew on a beef steak too but I'm not all that keen on eating a people steak or drinking human milk...  (That's more from a cultural taboo point of view than any objection to the milk as a food)

I don't think there is a food out there that hasn't been demonized at some point.

My cows are part of my lifestyle and they always will be if I have my way. Cows are an important part of the farm, milk, cheese, yoghurt, cream, butter and meat for us, the pigs, dogs, cats and chickens as well as manure for the gardens, orchard and pastures. They are great grass converters.

I'll stick to my traditional diet and lifestyle. I'm not sure how many of my ancestors kept cows but I know it's been all the generations in Australia so far and as we are among the longest living in the country I guess the poor dirt farmer diet suits us.


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## RevWC (Mar 28, 2011)

There is nothing wrong with milk...


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

There is nothing wrong with a little cows milk in moderation or if you need the calories. If you don't need the calories it isn't good. It is a liquid produced by a cow to produce another large cow. If you want to be a large cow drink lots of it. Otherwise use sparingly. Not complicated.


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## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

Y'all bitches are fighting form, not function

I will continue to eat dairy. I will also be by your side.

If your big thing is bitching about milk Ill backed you up but we really got bigger fish to fry.


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

CrackbottomLouis said:


> If you don't need the calories it isn't good. It is a liquid produced by a cow to produce another large cow.


I know you're not the only one who is making this argument, but you're the last one in this thread, so I'm just going to use your comment as a jumping off point. Don't take it personally.

Similarly, honey is produced by bees for the benefit of bees and so shouldn't be consumed by humans.

Similarly, almonds are produced by almond trees in order to create new almond trees and thus shouldn't be consumed by humans.

This line of thinking - what a product is produced to accomplish doesn't tell us anything about how a product can be used.

Rubber is the sap of a rubber tree and therefore shouldn't be used to make rubber bands.

Maple syrup is the sap of the maple tree and shouldn't be spread over one's pancakes.


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## RevWC (Mar 28, 2011)

Go figure...


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

Sentry18 said:


> I would submit, under the umbrella of common sense, that consuming the breast milk of another animal is bizarre to say the very least. *People would gag at the thought of walking up to a stranger and sampling her breast milk but *consider drinking the breast milk of a cow or a goat to be perfectly normal. Like I said, I don't really drink milk because and I am a very healthy person who has suffered in no way from avoiding it. I just love how the government ingrains in elementary school kids that something is good or something is bad and those people spend their rest of their lives convinced that it is true.


I knew when I read this, Sentry, a bunch of you were going to be able to keep this thread going for a very long time.


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## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

I'm old, so I remember TPTB telling us that salt was good for us (1950's health class), bad for us (1970's health publications), and now it is good for us IN MODERATION. Again. Hmm. 

This is the same science community that gave us nuclear war, DDT, Agent Orange, and who knows what else. I prefer to base my lifestyle on several thousand years experience of the human race. 

I have been drinking milk in some quantity since I was born. Grew up on a small dairy farm, drank it straight from the cows, and ate far more than my share of butter , homemade cottage cheese, drank buttermilk, and much more. At age 67 I am a bit over 6 feet tall and weigh 156 pounds. Not what you'd call fat. In fact, I sink in water, and always did. Call me dense, but you can't call me fat. 

At my wife's insistence, I had to find a new family doctor, since I hadn't been to one in about 20 years and the last one had died. The new doctor said my test numbers were all good, low cholesterol and all that, despite loving my butter and lard and bacon-and-egg breakfasts. 

Maybe what explains my physical shape has something to do with working hard every day, and eating what I NEED to eat, then stopping at that. I overate ONCE when I was kid, and was miserable for a whole 24 hour day. That hasn't happened since then. 

Believe what you want to. I've heard enough BS from the media in my life already, so I don't need any more of it. I have it on good authority that you can die from drinking too much pure water, too. To each his own. In fact, breathing AIR is not only the most addictive behavior known to man, but also ALWAYS ends in death!


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

machinist said:


> I'm old, so I remember TPTB telling us that salt was good for us (1950's health class), bad for us (1970's health publications), and now it is good for us IN MODERATION. Again. Hmm.
> 
> This is the same science community that gave us nuclear war, DDT, Agent Orange, and who knows what else. I prefer to base my lifestyle on several thousand years experience of the human race.
> 
> ...


Amen to that!


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

ZoomZoom said:


> Also, it's generally only those with European ancestry that can drink milk. Peoples from most other parts of the world can't drink milk.


The gene responsible for the ability to effectively digest lactose into adulthood arose at least twice, (there is more than one version of the gene) one being in Sub-Saharan Africa. Instances of lactase persistence may have arisen earlier but without animal husbandry they would not have held a significant advantage.
What we do know is that almost as soon as animal husbandry arose (in relative terms) the gene for lactase persistence spread with amazing rapidity, this indicates it offers a significant advantage.
*However*, this is only in reference to milk specifically, exceedingly few cultures that engaged in agriculture did not consume milk products. In areas where very little lactose tolerance existed, dairy products that had the processed by bacteria like yogourt, kefir, etc. were often very important. Also hard cheeses, butter and other dairy product that are low in lactose.



Coastal said:


> I agree, cows milk is for baby cows. I drink vanilla almond milk for a substitute. Another benefit to almond is it is 7ph unlike acidic cow milk.


Heaven help you if you drink a glass of orange juice ph 3.5! Milk is about 6.5 btw.



FatTire said:


> i been telling people this for years. im often surprised at how upset people get when you tell them milk isnt all that. cite a double blind study and some people get genuinely angry. people dont like their cultural myths messed with..


Please cite double blind studies!

The original article is an opinion piece that isn't even cohesive, people will believe what makes them happy, next Sentry will come up with an article about how bad seafood is
But seriously the author is talking about sugar, artificial sweeteners, low fat alternatives Not worth picking apart imo.

If the quantity of milk Americans are consuming(250kg/capita) is unhealthy then what about the top 5 consumers; Finland(360kg/capita), Sweden(355kg), The Netherlands(320kg), Switzerland(315kg), Greece(315kg) 
How they must be suffering:scratch, wait a minute, all these countries have a higher life expectancy than Americans how can this be?
Switzerland is second only to Japan and yet they are 4th in milk consumption per capita?

The negative effects of milk consumption must be hidden very well from scientists and even natural selection.

As to the cows milk is for making cows :dunno: it also makes bulls.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=real-males-eat-yogurt

"But "the most entertaining aspects of all this were things we didn't anticipate," Erdman says.

First, the scientists noticed that the yogurt-eating mice were incredibly shiny. Using both traditional histology techniques and cosmetic rating scales, the researchers showed that these animals had 10 times the active follicle density of other mice, resulting in luxuriantly silky fur.

Then the researchers spotted some*thing particular about the males: they projected their testes outward, which endowed them with a certain "mouse swagger," Erdman says. On measuring the males, they found that the testicles of the yogurt consumers were about 5 percent heavier than those of mice fed typical diets alone and around 15 percent heavier than those of junk-eating males.

More important, that masculinity pays off. In mating experiments, yogurt-eating males inseminated their partners faster and produced more offspring than control mice. Conversely, females that ate the yogurt diets gave birth to larger litters and weaned those pups with greater success. Reflecting on their unpublished results, Erdman and Alm think that the probiotic microbes in the yogurt help to make the animals leaner and healthier, which indirectly improves sexual machismo."


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## Saoirse (Jun 25, 2013)

I drink around a gallon of milk a day. At least 3/4s. Not doing too badly. NOT fat.

As far as a post-collapse lifestyle goes:

http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional-diets/the-good-scots-diet


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## Saoirse (Jun 25, 2013)

Calcium, the new carbon.


Run...


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## Coastal (Jun 27, 2013)

cowboyhermit said:


> Heaven help you if you drink a glass of orange juice ph 3.5! Milk is about 6.5 btw.


One would think, but citrus is not acidified in the body like animal proteins. It's actually quite the opposite. Coffee, soda and beer are the main common drinks to avoid.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Coastal said:


> One would think, but citrus is not acidified in the body like animal proteins. It's actually quite the opposite. Coffee, soda and beer are the main common drinks to avoid.


If you are actually worried about supposedly "acid forming foods" then why did you quote the *ph* of almond milk, a little misleading don't you think

How "acidifying" is milk? Surely you have credible sources
How acidifying are grains, beans, walnuts, hazelnuts, pomegranates, olives, tomatoes, according to those "scientific" sources. Surely you must avoid eating all these and many more foods if you are concerned about the acidifying effect of milk.

Of course if in fact the acidifying effect of milk is detrimental it sure is well hidden, as per above explanations. Why are the Swiss and the Greeks not suffering immensely from their much higher consumption?

In the real world, countries with high consumption of dairy are among the healthiest in the world, the detrimental effects must indeed be very subtle.


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## Coastal (Jun 27, 2013)

cowboyhermit said:


> If you are actually worried about supposedly "acid forming foods" then why did you quote the *ph* of almond milk, a little misleading don't you think
> 
> How "acidifying" is milk? Surely you have credible sources
> How acidifying are grains, beans, walnuts, hazelnuts, pomegranates, olives, tomatoes, according to those "scientific" sources. Surely you must avoid eating all these and many more foods if you are concerned about the acidifying effect of milk.
> ...


Almond milk is 7ph which is neutral. 

If you eat the standard american diet which is coffee, cola, meat, beer, milk, etc etc etc...your body intakes too much acid and can't deal with it. The body wants to be alkaline....too much acid makes you more prone to cancer. I cut out everything useless (like milk) and eat/drink the good acidic stuff in moderation. If you were prone to esophageal cancer....you would be concerned too.


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## Coastal (Jun 27, 2013)

cowboyhermit said:


> How "acidifying" is milk? Surely you have credible sources
> How acidifying are grains, beans, walnuts, hazelnuts, pomegranates, olives, tomatoes, according to those "scientific" sources. Surely you must avoid eating all these and many more foods if you are concerned about the acidifying effect of milk.


I wasn't going to reply to your rude immature post, but since you are a 10 year old, I figured I should help out and found one with pretty colors for you.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

> I wasn't going to reply to your rude immature post, but since you are a 10 year old, I figured I should help out and found one with pretty colors for you.


That was a bit offsides.


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## Coastal (Jun 27, 2013)

Sentry18 said:


> That was a bit offsides.


I should've added a smiley face. :surrender:


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## Saoirse (Jun 25, 2013)

Should stomach acid be purged?

If milk is useless and only benefits baby cows, what good is meat? Does nothing? 

Or is a credible perspective only gotten from misguided, obsessed folks who sell their personal preferences as fact and The Way as a profession?

Milk, by the way, is far from useless. Unfortunately, it seems to require a certain level of strenuous activity to be appreciated. Personal distaste does not change its benefits, however. Nor does the affect of diet on a sedentary person inform others of beneficial choices when surviving requires effort.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Coastal,
Milk turns you gay.
you're proof.
Have a nice hormone mainline.


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## 8thDayStranger (Jan 30, 2013)

Magus said:


> Coastal,
> Milk turns you gay.
> you're proof.
> Have a nice hormone mainline.











Sorry. Couldn't resist


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

> Milk, by the way, is far from useless. Unfortunately, it seems to require a certain level of strenuous activity to be appreciated. Personal distaste does not change its benefits, however.


Well Dr. Saoirse, please share the results of your double blind scientific study verifying the specific tangible benefits of milk. I look forward to reading them.


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## Saoirse (Jun 25, 2013)

Sentry18 said:


> Well Dr. Saoirse, please share the results of your double blind scientific study verifying the specific tangible benefits of milk. I look forward to reading them.


I have all the proof I need. I don't spend my days trying to convince people who fall for nonsense. You dislike something, that's fine. But so far you've fallen far short of proving your case. A nonsense, biased article is nothing to stand on. But it's your life.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

see.. told you people get upset..

we are talking about milk here people, sheesh...


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## 8thDayStranger (Jan 30, 2013)

FatTire said:


> see.. told you people get upset..
> 
> we are talking about milk here people, sheesh...


Right? Milk is like way down on the list of things to get hostile about.

Also to add my two coppers, milk sucks. I don't care if its the freakin fountain of youth, I don't drink it unless its full of Hershey's syrup. I don't even like it on cereal.


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## valannb22 (Jan 6, 2012)

Damn! Ya'll sure like to fight lol. I'm not sure how good or not milk is for you, I personally don't drink it.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

FatTire said:


> see.. told you people get upset..
> 
> we are talking about milk here people, sheesh...


You know all those steroids produce psychotic hostility right?
I think the buffout boys call it "roid rage".


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

> I have all the proof I need. I don't spend my days trying to convince people who fall for nonsense. You dislike something, that's fine. But so far you've fallen far short of proving your case. A nonsense, biased article is nothing to stand on. But it's your life.


Did you send your study? I didn't get it. Oh you're gonna go with the 'cause I said so arguement. Yeah, who wants to use facts and science when you can just declare it to be so. Well played. 

Next I am going to post that Pepsi is totally gross and see who I can get all worked up over that one (P.S. Pepsi is gross!).


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## Saoirse (Jun 25, 2013)

Sentry18 said:


> Did you send your study? I didn't get it. Oh you're gonna go with the 'cause I said so arguement. Yeah, who wants to use facts and science when you can just declare it to be so. Well played.
> 
> Next I am going to post that Pepsi is totally gross and see who I can get all worked up over that one (P.S. Pepsi is gross!).


Hmmm. Let's try this:

You have no proof for your argument against. None. Such proof must come from cultural studies because there is no chance of reducing confounding variables or even identifying effects of milk consumption otherwise. The cultural proof is strong. As it is in America, where the strongest individuals predomiantly consume quite a bit of milk and dairy products.

I don't believe it because I want to. The proof is there. In this thread we have points made that calcium causes bone fractures. Nonsense. Just because someone set up a biased "study" that went through scientific steps does not mean the study applies to anything. Or has any basis in reality. The majority of studies miss the reality boat. What excerpts have been posted scream of biased, false attacks. Not proof.

Don't like milk? Fine. But don't spread lies and misinformation. Just because someone created a study and makes a claim does not absolve the blame from those who spread their misinformation.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Well I say skim milk is bad No rebuttal , I win the baseless argument.


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## RevWC (Mar 28, 2011)

Drinking Milk is like swallowing a big loogie!


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Coastal said:


> I wasn't going to reply to your rude immature post, but since you are a 10 year old, I figured I should help out and found one with pretty colors for you.


So that is your idea of a scientific source? According to that chart isn't orange juice acidifying?

With response to the studies, typically when a substance that has shown immense value, as demonstrated by natural selection and the significance of the advantage gained over the last 10000 years, it does not need to prove it's benefits. It is a food, do people really need studies to tell them that beans are ok to eat, or lettuce? Normally if people believe that a substance is harmful they try to find evidence to that effect.
That aside, since no one has come forward with any actual evidence that milk is bad for you I will give some examples of studies showing the benefits.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090722083720.htm
"Research undertaken by the Universities of Reading, Cardiff and Bristol has found that drinking milk can lessen the chances of dying from illnesses such as coronary heart disease (CHD) and stroke by up to 15-20 %"

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121003163740.htm
"Milk consumption has been linked to improved health, with decreased risks of diabetes, metabolic syndrome, and colon cancer. A group of scientists in Sweden found that lactoferricin4-14 (Lfcin4-14), a milk protein with known health effects, significantly reduces the growth rate of colon cancer cells over time by prolonging the period of the cell cycle before chromosomes are replicated. In a new study, investigators report that treatment with Lfcin4-14 reduced DNA damage in colon cancer cells exposed to ultraviolet (UV) light."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090428141618.htm 
"A Purdue University study shows dairy has an advantage over calcium carbonate in promoting bone growth and strength."
""We found it was an advantage having milk or dairy while bones were growing over calcium carbonate, and it protects you later in life," Weaver said."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130314141142.htm
"College-age kids who don't consume at least three servings of dairy daily are three times more likely to develop metabolic syndrome than those who do, said a new University of Illinois study."

I could go on and on, but it really shouldn't be necessary as there is nothing to indicate milk is *unhealthy* in the first place, which is what has been asserted. 
Are there issues with milk and dairy to be considered? Absolutely, for instance the hormones that are so often mentioned are not allowed in Canada and many other places and I believe that is a good thing.

I have no vested interest in whether or not anyone drinks milk, I don't sell it, we all make our own choices and that's how it should be. I only take issue when people claim that science is on their side when in reality science, natural selection and cultural evolution indicate milk and dairy are a great food source.


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## crwilson (Nov 16, 2013)

to all of you who don't like milk I purpose a test. you are allowed only 1 consumable for the next year, it can either be something to eat or something to drink but not both. it can only contain one ingredient. I choose milk. what do you choose


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

*What a thread!*

Back on topic!

I have heard some that raw milk, unpasteurized, is actually better for us than pasteurized milk. Of course, the government has huge guidelines about that.

I think many organic foods are better than non-organic, but I am not sure that it is 100%. The one thing that I consistently do buy that is organic is milk. I say that, not being 100% sure that it is really hormone free, but probably are. It is the one thing that I think is the most important food to be organic for us and our children. I have been doing that ever since I found organic milk in the grocery store.

One of the reasons I don't buy more organic is due to the price, and maybe it is because I have gotten used to it, but I have gotten used the price of organic milk.


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

page seven ... :gaah:

And we have ........


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

Weedy, 'organic' milk sold in stores is flash pasturized, brought to a higher temperature for a shorter time. Still better than milk not labeled 'organic' in that it comes from grass fed cows not pumped up on hormones (at least in theory, to be sure of this you need to research each specific product). Raw milk is just that, raw, fresh from the cow. Some states allow the sale of it in stores, others do not, but there is a lot data suggesting that raw milk is qquite for you, specially if you are very active. 

I recently watched the documentary 'Farmageddon' on netflix and found it quite interesting. Anecdotal evidense, so take it with a grain a salt, but a mom claims her sons allegies went away using raw milk. And there seems to a fairly strong effort by corporate farming to get rid of raw milk producers.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

crwilson said:


> to all of you who don't like milk I purpose a test. you are allowed only 1 consumable for the next year, it can either be something to eat or something to drink but not both. it can only contain one ingredient. I choose milk. what do you choose


Under your scenario I would choose human breast milk, because I am not a baby cow. I may need a few different producers to make sure I met my required daily allotment. All non-drinkers of course. And I would drink it from a glass, I am happily married after all.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

I haven't had a drink of milk since the 70's. We don't use milk for any cooking purpose. I can't remember the last time I had ice cream and I have no desire for ice cream.

All of the people that I have known to drink milk into their 30's and 40's seem to be pudgy and some are down right over weight. 

Why is the human the only animal that drinks milk into maturity?

Here is what I think. back before refrigeration, and back when 50% of the population lived in a rural location, they had 3 choices for drinking. Alcohol (safe to drink, but not good for kids). Water (not always clean and could cause dysentery leading to death), and then there was milk (which was almost always safe to drink because it came directly from the cow)

How many people now know that they used to add alcohol to water to kill the bacteria. So this only left milk for the kids.

Milk has been in our culture for so long now that no one questions why we still drink it.


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## crwilson (Nov 16, 2013)

cows milk has about 3 times the protein and vitamins as human milk so I still choose cow milk. you will probably starve on human milk as an adult haha.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

I am pretty sure I would not starve to death drinking an abundance of breast milk. But as Tweto said, why would I? I am not a baby anymore. I am certainly not a baby cow, or a baby goat, or a baby monkey....


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## crwilson (Nov 16, 2013)

was just trying to prove a point that cows and cow milk is a good thing especially for people who are interested in survival and being prepared. I doubt there is a single other item you could possible have that could give you the level of nutrition and calories as a good healthy dairy cow in a survival situation. If you have access to several acres more than you can possibly garden yourself then you can put that into good use feeding a cow. if she is a jersey you can expect 20+ L a day of the highest quality milk with more nutrition than say a Holstein. 20 L wow that is 12000 calories a day and 640 grams of protein. enough to feed your entire family and several pigs and chickens for just wasted ground. in a true survival situation there will be grass everywhere people will not be maintaining lawns or road edges. Keep your cow in a shed if you had to hide her and scythe all the grass she needs just be careful. as a bonus you will get either another good milking cow in two years or you can eat her baby if it is a bull raise him for two years and get almost 600 pounds of meat. If society truly breaks down people wont be surviving on wildlife and foraging, just not enough calories unless you live in extremely remote areas with access to yearly animal migrations. 

all hunter gatherers lived near animal migrations or moved about continuously or were part agrarian. all these people that think they could survive in the wild on forage or game are complete idiots "unless you live near a migration route" you cant possibly do it year after year. yeah you may get lucky the first couple years but animal populations rise and fall continuously, let alone if everyone else in America is planning on doing the same. I know this post wasn't about milk and cows in a survival situation but this is what these forums are about so give cows and milk the respect they deserve as probably one of the greatest achievement our European ancestors gave us. during the years of the American homestead act losing your cow was pretty much a death warrant. "yeah that's how important they were"

not to mention milk can be eaten in about 100 diff ways and used in everything from baking to preserving. cheese is an awesome survival travel food. 25 gr of protein per 100g. lots of fat for fuel pair it with some fruit leather for carbs and your set. cheese will keep you super warm on a cold night if you had to shelter on the run. wax your cheese and you can keep it in your pack longer than your pack will last. you can freeze it thaw it put it in the sun or submerge it, it dosent brake or make a clanking sound in your bag. would you rather be chewing on some old dry trail mix cowering in a down pour or eating some delicious cheese, great morale boost.

there wont be any surgery energy drinks after the shtf how about a big ass glass of milk to keep you fueled and hydrated to keep you working and alert all day.


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## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

If you don't want to drink it you can use in as an ingredient in LOTS of things. I took my kids off commercial cow's milk after our pediatrician told me it puts girls into early puberty( 8 years old). She said it in a very nonchalant manner as if it was a matter of course. I was horrified to think that if it could cause girls to go into puberty at age 8, what could it be doing to my boys? So we got milk goats and have never gone back. I know what's going into them, I know what's not going into them. I don't force milking beyond what they are naturally capable of giving. I don't pasteurize because I don't see the point of going to all that work, trouble and expense just to kill all the 'good stuff' that milk naturally has. 
I don't care if most people wouldn't dream of drinking goat milk, and I don't care if people think milk in general is icky. What I DO care about is that it is ILLEGAL in a lot of states for people to make that choice for themselves. If I chose to sell my raw goat milk in this state I could literally lose the farm. I think that's crazy!


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

If all the threads on this site were on this level I would have left long ago.

On one hand we have people acting like children saying "eww, that's gross" to something that has sustained humanity for millenia, on the other people are bringing forth facts and logic. According to science and logic, milk and it's products have given humans a huge advantage to the point where 1-2 BILLION people have identifiable genes who's sole purpose is to digest milk into adulthood. However this is only a fraction of the people who consume milk products, historically all dairy was consumed by people who were lactose intolerant and it STILL gave enough of an advantage for it to become hugely successful. This is not a European phenomenon, the genes for lactase persistence have come about in Africa as well, but more importantly other cultures like in India and the middle east found many ways to utilize the resource without the genes for it.

The same people who are using ridiculous arguments like "I don't drink cow's milk because I am not a cow." are the ones who drink toxic sludge like artificially sweetened carbonated beverages. Humans are very well equipped to consume milk, particularly it's cultured derivatives, for many they are made for it on a genetic level, NOBODY is made to drink pop.

Like mentioned before, humans are NOT the only animals that drink milk as adults, they are just the only ones with the means to access it on a regular basis. Many omnivores and carnivores feed on milk when the opportunity arises, the mammaries of lactating animals are often fed on preferentially by predators and scavengers. Mice, cats, dogs, pigs, etc jump at the chance to drink milk (of course there are exceptions like with any food source). Studies show that many animals drinking milk have improved heath, at least one of which I posted earlier.

lazydaisy67 brings up a good point about the hormones, like mentioned before these are not a concern in most countries other than the U.S., and even there a link has failed to show up in studies. Still, organic or home-raised would likely be preferential in the U.S. if at all possible.

http://children.webmd.com/guide/causes-symptoms?page=2


> Early Puberty: Related Factors
> 
> While they aren't necessarily causes, a number of factors seem to be related to early puberty. They include:
> 
> ...


I believe the research now points to milk not being a cause of early puberty.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

The hormones added to milk is probably what started the milk causes early puberty. milk is probably a very good thing to have around post SHTF, but the fantasy that skim milk adds useful calcium in the degree that marketers would tell you is just like most marketing.
the naturally preserved milk products are where Milk really shines


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

weedygarden said:


> Back on topic!
> 
> I have heard some that raw milk, unpasteurized, is actually better for us than pasteurized milk. Of course, the government has huge guidelines about that.
> 
> ...


Unpasteurized milk can be dangerous. People die from it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_raw_milk_debate

According to the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, more than 300 people in the United States got sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk in 2001, and nearly 200 became ill from these products in 2002. "Drinking raw milk or eating raw milk products is like playing Russian roulette with your health," says John Sheehan, director of the Food and Drug Administration's Division of Dairy and Egg Safety. "We see a number of cases of food-borne illness every year related to the consumption of raw milk."[24]
In 2006, the California Department of Food and Agriculture temporarily quarantined milk and cream from Organic Pastures, California's largest raw milk producer, after four children were stricken with E. coli O157:H7 bacterial illness. The department determined that the common link in all four cases "was consumption of raw milk or raw colostrum from Organic Pastures in the week prior to symptom onset."[25]

People with weakened immune systems, such as elderly, children, and those with certain diseases or conditions, are most at risk for severe infections from pathogens that can contaminate raw milk. In pregnant women, Listeria monocytogenes-caused illness can result in miscarriage, fetal death, or illness or death of a newborn infant, and Escherichia coli (E. coli) infection has been linked to hemolytic uremic syndrome, a condition that can cause kidney failure and death. Other groups, such as the Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition[26] and American Academy of Pediatrics, also warn that raw milk is dangerous, especially for children.[6]
The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) cite numerous cases of serious or fatal infections caused by raw milk, with E. coli O157:H7 being the most important because it can cause hemolytic-uremic syndrome, a life-threatening condition.[27] In a CDC report, numerous cases were traced to raw milk from a cow-share program in Cowlitz County, Washington. After five children were hospitalized, a court order was issued to bring the farm into compliance.[28] In 2007, Kansas State University published a list of outbreaks[29] associated with consuming raw milk or dairy products and an article[30] about the investigation of raw milk outbreaks.

http://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/rawmilk/raw-milk-questions-and-answers.html#risks

Can drinking raw milk hurt me or my family?
Yes. Raw milk can cause serious infections. Raw milk and raw milk products (such as cheeses and yogurts made with raw milk) can be contaminated with bacteria that can cause serious illness, hospitalization, or death. These harmful bacteria include Brucella, Campylobacter, Listeria, Mycobacterium bovis, Salmonella, Shiga toxin-producing E. coli, Shigella, Streptococcus pyogenes, and Yersinia enterocolitica. From 1998 through 2011, 148 outbreaks due to consumption of raw milk or raw milk products were reported to CDC. These resulted in 2,384 illnesses, 284 hospitalizations, and 2 deaths. Most of these illnesses were caused by Escherichia coli, Campylobacter, Salmonella, or Listeria. It is important to note that a substantial proportion of the raw milk-associated disease burden falls on children; among the 104 outbreaks from 1998-2011 with information on the patients' ages available, 82% involved at least one person younger than 20 years old.
Because not all cases of foodborne illness are recognized and reported, the actual number of illnesses associated with raw milk likely is greater.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

*BillS*

I know that the reason pasteurized milk has been the norm for so many years is exactly why raw milk has been virtually banned.

It may be true that people have gotten sick and died from drinking it. The articles you added support that. I did hear of one place in Colorado where some people got sick from the milk, and I think it was from a C.S.A. (Crop Share Association). I am surprised we have not heard about more because it seems there is a big effort to regulate that and scaring people by informing them of such incidents is one method of doing so

I think that much of our food supply is not as it seems and is not as good for us as we are led to believe. Pasteurizing milk changes it up in some not good ways. I will come back with some documentation, later.

I do not drink raw milk. But I think that raw milk should be allowed for those who opt to use it, just as hormone free, organic milk is available. I am not sure that raw milk should be in grocery stores, but I think people should be able to have access to it if they so desire. There are people who believe strongly in it.


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## redhorse (Dec 27, 2012)

BillS, for once I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you. All of the 'harmful bacteria' listed above can commonly be found in your kitchen, with or without milk being present.

I have been drinking raw goat milk for years. I take good care of livestock, and take precautions to make sure that I do not get sick from the milk I drink. The girls are not out eating weeds while in milk, their are certain onces that can be toxic and pass through the milk to whoever drinks it. They are on quality hay or staked out to graze on grass. They get grained twice a day. I keep their udders shaved, and wash them every time I milk. Anything that the milk will touch is either stainless steel, or glass, which is ALWAYS cleaned and steralized after the milking is completed and the milk is put away, and again just before I milk again. My kitchen is always super clean when handeling milk or milk products. I also always squirt a little milk in a white cup before I start milking to make sure there is no blood, pus, or anything else that would indicate something might be wrong with my girl and her milk.

I think if proper precautions and common sense are used, raw milk is very safe. I do not recomend buying a milking goat from a sale, milking straigt to a glass, and taking a swig. There are way to many things to go wrong there.

You can also pasturize your milk at home if you choose, although I do not.

I do buy organic cow milk when I let the girls dry up for the winter.

Here is a rather gross article about common bacteria found in your kitchen. All are listed as culprits in raw milk deaths and sicknesses. I am by no means a neat freak, but I do keep the kitchen clean!

http://www.marlerblog.com/lawyer-oped/where-does-danger-lurk-in-you-kitchen/



> Where does danger lurk in you kitchen?
> Posted By Bill Marler on August 10, 2013
> According to Food Safety Magazine, NSF International's Applied Research Center (ARC) has released the 2013 NSF International Household Germ Study, revealing that many common kitchen items harbor unsafe levels of E. coli, Salmonella, Listeria, yeast and mold. NSF International scientists point to a number of contributing factors - including improper food storage, handling, preparation and cleaning - which may help explain why more than 20% of foodborne illness outbreaks result from food consumed in the home.
> 
> ...


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

weedygarden said:


> But I think that raw milk should be allowed for those who opt to use it, just as hormone free, organic milk is available. I am not sure that raw milk should be in grocery stores, but I think people should be able to have access to it if they so desire. There are people who believe strongly in it.


Exactly, lots of things have been "proven" to be "bad" for you and could potentially make you very sick such as junk food and in the past many things like tomatoes were considered unhealthy. If you give the power to the food police to control one food it is only a matter of time until they try to come after the next one.

As an aside Fattire mentioned before about organic and grass-fed. Not all organic milk will be grass-fed and not all grass-fed milk is organic.

redhorse really demonstrates the reality imo, sure you can get sick from unpasteurized milk if it comes from a bad source, but done right it is a different story. Would I drink unpasteurized milk from a conventional typical dairy? Not so much. The push to industrialize agriculture made these things a necessity, and the government regulation ensured the monopoly. Same thing happened with commercial meat inspections, when buying from the local butcher who bought from the local farmer inspection was not an issue. Only when industrial slaughterhouses came into being and the public was disturbed did the government step in to ensure the continued existence of these facilities.


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## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

Bill, those numbers are pretty small in comparison to the numbers of people who get sick and die from food pathogens. 2011 estimates by the CDC state 9.4 million getting sick, 55,000 getting hospitalized and 1.300 dying from 31 different pathogens in food. Personally, I would be WAY more afraid to eat at Golden Corral's buffet than to eat my own raw milk cream cheese based on those stats.

I am extremely careful with milking practices. Clean goats, clean teets, clean milk room, clean milk stand, clean milk bucket, etc. I understand the risks and accept the responsibility for my family to drink raw milk and eat raw milk products. I understand it's not for everybody, but it's our choice.


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## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

When I was 16 I lived with a farmer family as a farm hand. This was a dairy family farm. They also had the "Milk Commission" which was a gestapo agency.

The cows' teats were cleaned with a bleach solution before the milker was placed on the cows and the teats were cleaned when finished. The cows were "started" with a few squirts into a dump pail. After milking, the milk lines were cleaned with a bleach solution and dumped. The holding tank was 200-300 gallons and was cooled with a low energy system (probably liquid nitrogen) until the creamery tanker arrived. The holding tank was sanitized as well. 

Pregnant and nursing cows were milked into a dump can and discarded. 

We drank the raw milk and never had a problem. For raw milk to be safe, the cows must be healthy (inoculated) the mangers and milk stations must be clean and free of fecal and urine debris, the milking systems must be sanitized after each milking. This is just work chores, not a burden. 

Pasturized homogenized milk is not healthy, it is corporate policy. Raw milk is healthier because it can be disinfected with 35% food grade hydrogen peroxide instead of heat. 

All of their cows were fed silage, grain and hay all year and meadow/pasture fed during the warmer seasons. 

Some Mediterranean people have a slight intolerance to cow milk. Mostly northern Europeans drank cow milk as well as some sub Saharan people.


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