# Mom needs solar help...



## roselle (Oct 20, 2013)

I live with my 4 home schooled children. After going without heat, we are now blessed with a wonderful, very large outdoor wood boiler. It heats our house and all of our hot water...Wonderfully. I had two extra pumps put on the furnace, but they are not currently used. I believe the pumps are 1.5 amps. We hope to use the extra pumps to heat a barn and greenhouse soon. 

My children are the BEST! They are all devoted preppers...Thankfully... because that is a lifestyle and a huge job. 

We want to run the outdoor boiler with solar panels...Doesn't it seem kind of stupid to need electricity to heat with wood? I just want, for now to run the boiler pump and the fan on the old heating system, so we can heat without electricity, but also heat if there is no electricity. I am just determined that my children should NEVER have to do without heat again. I would eventually like to be able to run my 5 freezers long enough not to lose everything we have struggled to grow, in the case of a power outage....Been there....Done that!

Anybody up to the challenge of guiding a mom and 4 kids...2 of which are autistic in this project? We know nothing about solar, although I bought a
"Power 4 Patriots" set of DVD's.....Barely could watch the first 15 mins. it was so poorly done. 

I do have some very gifted children, in spite of many problems.(This is what I have to say about giftedness "Sorry my children....The gift isn't your IQ, it's what you will give back!") This type of project is right up their ally, but I have no clue where to start or what to do. 

I will say we love our boiler. It is a lot of work, but we are so blessed to have it. We have had our electric bill, in the winter and summer, drop to approx. $200 a month, from approx. $400-600. No dryer, no air conditioning, no electric water heater, and no electric heat. I am proud of us! This has helped keep my children on their own little farm and on their own land!

Something others may want to look into...Our electric company has a new policy...They either spray or cut down any vegetation in the path of their power lines...They keep hauling wood to us free. It isn't always in manageable pieces, but it burns and our boiler takes huge pieces of wood. We are small and have some serious orthopedic problems, but little by little...We get the stuff out of the front yard and this year, for the first time in a lot of years...My children will be as warm as they want! I bribe the tree cutters with our fresh maple syrup and jams and jellies and you know what?! They keep coming back! Now that is a gift! They also bring us huge loads of wood chips. Within 2 days, only several inches into the pile of chips.....Smoke pours out!

Thanks for any guidance you can share! Have a happy day!


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Not sure if I got all the details right, assuming pumps are [email protected] AC (household power) then they will require 165 Watts each, that is not insignificant, depending on how many you are using and if they are running 24/7. You will have to run an inverter if they are AC and so there are some losses there as well. 

For the sake of extreme simplicity rounding up to 200W X 24hours=4800Wh
Sticking with the over-simplicity 6 hours of sunlight would require 800W of solar to run the one pump. That is going to run you $800 + inverter, batteries, charge controller etc. Is this going to fit into your budget?

If you had DC pumps then you would be miles ahead:dunno:


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

cowboyhermit said:


> Not sure if I got all the details right, assuming pumps are [email protected] AC (household power) then they will require 165 Watts each, that is not insignificant, depending on how many you are using and if they are running 24/7. You will have to run an inverter if they are AC and so there are some losses there as well.
> 
> For the sake of extreme simplicity rounding up to 200W X 24hours=4800Wh
> Sticking with the over-simplicity 6 hours of sunlight would require 800W of solar to run the one pump. That is going to run you $800 + inverter, batteries, charge controller etc. Is this going to fit into your budget?
> ...


Plus the forced air furnace blower?

I get the impression that the house is forced air, furnace has a heat exchanger that "converts" the hot water from the boiler to warm air for the furnace?


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## roselle (Oct 20, 2013)

cowboyhermit said:


> Not sure if I got all the details right, assuming pumps are [email protected] AC (household power) then they will require 165 Watts each, that is not insignificant, depending on how many you are using and if they are running 24/7. You will have to run an inverter if they are AC and so there are some losses there as well.
> 
> For the sake of extreme simplicity rounding up to 200W X 24hours=4800Wh
> Sticking with the over-simplicity 6 hours of sunlight would require 800W of solar to run the one pump. That is going to run you $800 + inverter, batteries, charge controller etc. Is this going to fit into your budget?
> ...


The pumps are easily accessible. Could they be switched to DC? Right now I only use one pump. The hot water doesn't require a pump.

Let me go sneak a peak at my system again...There is a pump for the boiler and a fan that comes on, when the temp. on the thing drops...Then there is the fan on old heating system, that draws/blows the heat into the house. I will go see what the amps. are on those. THANKS! I do have a 300W portable solar panel and some batteries....


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## roselle (Oct 20, 2013)

TheLazyL said:


> Plus the forced air furnace blower?
> 
> I get the impression that the house is forced air, furnace has a heat exchanger that "converts" the hot water from the boiler to warm air for the furnace?


Yes...It has a heat exchanger in the ductwork. A fan to blow O2 when the fire goes out, and then it goes through the forced air. The only thing that still works on that is the fan. Thanks!


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## roselle (Oct 20, 2013)

Well this didn't prove as easy as I thought. I guess the pumps are .92 amps., but we are only using one at this time. It only runs until the house is at the set temp. The sticker with all the details for the forced air is so old, it's unreadable. It is a Ruud 4 ton...I think 4 ton. It's about 14 years old and I bought it used...Just for the wood boiler. I looked it up online and just found details on newer 4 tons...So it seems the motor to the fan is 1/3 hp, unless things have changed. The fan on the boiler is 1.5 amps and only comes on when the boiler drops to a set temp. 

Now...My 15 year old had to help me with all these details...


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Let me take stab at it to say between $1500 to $2000 to go solar.
Would that be in you budget?
Or a $400 to $500 generator for the rare times the power is out in the winter.


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## roselle (Oct 20, 2013)

hiwall said:


> Let me take stab at it to say between $1500 to $2000 to go solar.
> Would that be in you budget?
> Or a $400 to $500 generator for the rare times the power is out in the winter.


I do have a generator, but would prefer solar, in case the grid goes down etc. Also safer and the sun might be available, when gasoline won't be. I would also like to build the solar panels with my children. In the long term, I think this would be a wise expense. I would just do this bit by bit, just like I do everything else.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Ok, so if things are already setup to only run on demand it shouldn't be too bad. The next step is estimating run-time and total energy use. Ideally the way to do this is to actually measure your usage over a period of time, the longer the better but a cold day would give you a good idea.

If you were to pick up a Kill-a-watt or similar device, they are the easiest way to measure energy consumption, you simply plug whatever is to be measured into the unit and it will total up the usage /day etc.

If that isn't an option you could measure the current with a clamp multimeter or just use the listed ratings and actually determine how long these things are running for in a 24 hour period.

Once you have a better idea of your usage the size of the system can be determined.


If this will be a step by step project then you might consider getting the batteries and inverter first so that you will have emergency backup. The batteries could be charged with the generator (to reduce runtime), grid power when it is available, or even a vehicle in a true emergency.


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## roselle (Oct 20, 2013)

cowboyhermit said:


> Ok, so if things are already setup to only run on demand it shouldn't be too bad. The next step is estimating run-time and total energy use. Ideally the way to do this is to actually measure your usage over a period of time, the longer the better but a cold day would give you a good idea.
> 
> If you were to pick up a Kill-a-watt or similar device, they are the easiest way to measure energy consumption, you simply plug whatever is to be measured into the unit and it will total up the usage /day etc.
> 
> ...


Hey....I think we have one of those things....My kids get very weird Christmas presents. I've sent one of my kids to retrieve the thing and see if it is a Kill-a-watt meter.


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## roselle (Oct 20, 2013)

Yay! Kill-A-Watt P3....

One of the best things about an autistic child...They know right where their things are...Of course he had to stop and play the piano on his way to grab it!

So...I should just plug this in the outlet of each device...Boiler pump and boiler fan? It is cold now, in the 30's, so should give us a good estimate. It can get colder, but can be warmer too. 

What about the fan on the forced air system? I think it is wired in....Guess I could send one of my scouts under the house tomorrow to see if that is so. 


Thanks! You are nice to help!


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## roselle (Oct 20, 2013)

roselle said:


> Hey....I think we have one of those things....My kids get very weird Christmas presents. I've sent one of my kids to retrieve the thing and see if it is a Kill-a-watt meter.


I must have thought these would have been cool stocking stuffers....I've been informed we have TWO! Give me a bag of flour, a seed, a plant, a kid or baby...I'm good! If it has a plug or wire...I'm bad!


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Awesome about the meter, yes the furnace is likely direct wired unfortunately, it is easy to convert to a plug but with as with any electrical caution is key. If you were to go ahead with the backup/solar system then you would have to either convert the furnace to a plug or install a transfer switch.
For the sake of estimating your power usage it would probably easier to just keep track of how many minutes/hour you fan is running, rather than starting with wiring.


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## roselle (Oct 20, 2013)

cowboyhermit said:


> Awesome about the meter, yes the furnace is likely direct wired unfortunately, it is easy to convert to a plug but with as with any electrical caution is key. If you were to go ahead with the backup/solar system then you would have to either convert the furnace to a plug or install a transfer switch.
> For the sake of estimating your power usage it would probably easier to just keep track of how many minutes/hour you fan is running, rather than starting with wiring.


One of the kids ran out and plugged in one of the meters. Us kooks have done some wiring....Cuz we were desperate. We put in our new double ovens...The electrician didn't show...We hadn't had working ovens in a long, long time. These kids call store bread "artificial." The ovens finally arrived. All four of them circled those ovens like vultures. I caved...We watched lots of "YouTube." Turned ALL the power off inside the house...Actually outside too...Just to be extra safe. We each took a color of wire....Wa-La....We did it! The biggest problem was lifting the things. We brought pallets in...Lifted onto one, brought in another...lifted onto that...Shoved the things in. We had bread by the end of the day.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

The blower is your energy hog in this system. If funds permit you might consider putting in hydronic baseboards around the house. This would allow you to remove the blower from the system. I replace my forced air furnace with a boiler and baseboards. I had less dust, less noise, and a more comfortable home. 

One way to do this is to break your home up into zones, typically each zone is one or two rooms, then circulate each zone with its own circulator. If you have three speed circulators you can probably use low speed using about 40% of the electricity as compared to high speed. I like to run baseboard around the outside walls as much as possible. The more baseboard you have the cooler the water that will effectively heat your home. If the water is hotter it just doesn't circulate as long. 

You can also use zone valves but zone valves require more maintenance and are about the same price. Also, if you are just using one circulator then when it does go out you are out of heat with zone valve zoning. If a circulator goes out in a circulator zoning system you only lose one zone.

At first glance you may think that running multiple circulators would burn a lot more electricity by if you run them on low speed that is not really so. Seldom do you have more than one or two zones on at a time and it takes three to start costing you electricity and the amount of time that you run one or two more than makes up for it. This depends on you having the three speed circulators.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

In the OP she all ready has a 300 watt solar array and battery. Do you have a little electronic box between your solar cells and battery that keeps from over charging the battery?

1 boiler circulating pump is actually .92 amps. Assuming it's 120 AC that would be 120 watts (rounded off).

Ma'am, as a experiment.

Setup your solar cell and get the battery(s) fully charged.

Connect a 500 watt Power Inverter to the battery(s).

If your boiler's circulating pump's electric cable plugs into a receipt, unplug it and plug it into the inverter.

No plug on the circulating pump? Turn off the electric to the boiler. Follow the electrical cable from the pump back to a junction box. Make a drawing (or take pictures) of how and what the wires are connected to (so you can reconnect everything back if the experiment fails). Remove the circulating pump cable from the junction box. Put a electrical plug on the end of the cable you just removed form the junction box. Black wire to the brass screw, White wire to the silver screw and green wire to the green screw. Plug it into your inverter.

Now you boiler's circulating pump should be running on solar! Unfortunately it is also running continuously but you know your setup works! Depending on the size of you battery(s) this will power you pump for a few hours after dark.

Now put all the wring back as it was originally. Call an Electrician. What you want the Electrician to do is provide you with a cable that you can plug into your inverter that turns the pump on only when the boiler is calling for heat.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

> Connect a 500 watt Power Inverter to the battery(s).


A 120 watt running load motor would need maybe 1500 watts to start it.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

hiwall said:


> A 120 watt running load motor would need maybe 1500 watts to start it.


That is a possibility. From the OP description, I'm thinking she doesn't have a traditional circulating pump but a smaller specialized pump.

I could be totally wrong.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

TheLazyL said:


> ....circulating pump but a smaller specialized pump. I could be totally wrong.


I immediately thought of the Taco pumps as well.... I think the starting current is really very low on those.

If I had a schematic of the control circuit (what tells the pump to to turn on and off) it would be very easy to recommend an interface to allow the pump to run off the inverter, but only at times when it is needed (as it is now) instead of continuously.


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## roselle (Oct 20, 2013)

LincTex said:


> I immediately thought of the Taco pumps as well.... I think the starting current is really very low on those.
> 
> If I had a schematic of the control circuit (what tells the pump to to turn on and off) it would be very easy to recommend an interface to allow the pump to run off the inverter, but only at times when it is needed (as it is now) instead of continuously.


Do you want a pik of the boiler guts?


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

roselle said:


> Do you want a pik of the boiler guts?


I need a wiring schematic of the controls system. You can easily use a solid state relay to operate the pump (when needed) off of the inverter.


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## roselle (Oct 20, 2013)

LincTex said:


> I need a wiring schematic of the controls system. You can easily use a solid state relay to operate the pump (when needed) off of the inverter.


Well everyone has been sick and we have had something come up every day, so I finally went to visit the guy that built my wood boiler. I asked him if he had the wiring schematic....He said he had no clue what the schematic was.......


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Can you post a picture of the pump, especially the spec tag, as well as the whole boiler and the heat distribution system in the house, With the amount of skill and knowledge on this forum , somebody should have a reasonable solution.
I have a couple of ideas brewing but would like to see some pics first.


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