# When does SHHTF



## goodmedivice

Sometimes I think about what kind of Indicator should I look out for that will notify me to step up my preps another level or worst get to my BOShelter.
I would like to know what some of you think. what kind of triggers are you watching for that will tell you this is for real and its happening now.
This is important for me because I dont want any imagined crisis affecting my daily "normal" life. I dont like to think im compulsive or paranoid as some may call us and ,I dont like my mind being consumed by rediculous Notions daily because it is unhealthy. I would like to go on my daily routine without thinking I better get another bag of rice, or is this the start of bad times.
For example Glenn beck once said the absolute "trigger" would be when the chinese stops buying our bonds- then we got 1week befor the economy colapses. Someone may see there trigger as an unemployment rate of 18%.
Another may see it when a 20lb bag of rice hits 25$. Because im not to smart about the economy and stuff my eye is on the chinese not buying our bonds, then ill shop till i drop. pls share


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## lhalfcent

I keep wondering about that too.
I figure if the tropical storms wipe out our oil rigs, fires and drought destroy a whole seasons crops and the prices at the grocery store go up like double over night... i don't know..that would do it for me!


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## VUnder

I would stay home until the day that automobiles will not run anymore. When that happens, you will have just a few hours until people realize that it is really over. If you live in a heavily populated area, you better get to moving. I don't know why more people aren't keeping an older vehicle that will survive an EMP or solar flare. Most every vehicle on the roads today will be disabled.


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## mikesolid

I'm personally waiting for the "staples" of our government to disappear or collapse or however you want to put it. staples like oil and other resources. Also I've heard alot of random people (from bars, co-workers, friends) mention the word "revolution". Yea sure this might just be them venting about their anger towards our government but you never know.

Weather problems I rely on the news and my own instinct.

Alot of people say relying on the news for a SHTF situation can be bad, whether it's the news telling you to "stay inside due to rioting" or whatever. But as long as you KEEP YOUR EYES AND EARS OPEN and use your own COMMON SENSE you'll be able to seperate the crap from the reality.

another words, yea the news might be telling you to stay inside but oh hey you look outside and see rioters breaking down doors and throwing molotov cocktails through random windows. To me this would be a "Get my gun and get my family the hell outta here" situation.

The bottom line is as long as your ALWAYS as prepared as you can be, that's all you can do.


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## Jezcruzen

People.. its already hitting the fan... in slow motion so as the average person doesn't even notice. Its here. You need not wait or look for any clues. ITS HAPPENING NOW!


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## TheAnt

I live in a place I would not want to be in a total economic collapse or societal collapse. I would be wanting to move about 1200 miles away from here. Cant go now -- wouldnt make economic sense.

When I start seeing or hearing reliable rumors of restriction of movement or other restrictions because of shortages of some kind that look like they will last that will be my queue to get out of dodge.

Apart from that or if things progress from bad to worse too quickly I will stay right where I am and do the best I can from here. Maybe book it up into the mountains. Honestly I would probably be best to stay at the house and keep a low profile. :dunno:


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## RevWC

Good Post! I think things will really go fast when Israel is attacked or attacks to prevent a nuclear confrontation and the mid east escalation goes into hyper boil. I believe this will result in an immediate world economical collapse. Oil and food prices soaring with certain shortages imminent. Better to start stocking sooner before later. Unfortunately, I believe this will happen in the near future. God Bless us all!


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## VUnder

Yes, but once the transportation shuts down, that is when society will get bad. Your biggest problem will be other people. People will be trying to make it as long as they can go. Of course, you can leave any time before that, if you choose. But, the auto deal is going to be significant. Once that happens, it will be a long time before things get back to running right.


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## UncleJoe

You can also watch the U.S Dollar Index. Most of the financial sites I read say that if it drops below 70; look out.

DOLLAR INDEX SPOT (DXY:IND) Index Performance - Bloomberg

And Jezcruzen, I agree. We are on a long slow slide right now with no practical way to stop it.


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## oldvet

Jezcruzen said:


> People.. its already hitting the fan... in slow motion so as the average person doesn't even notice. Its here. You need not wait or look for any clues. ITS HAPPENING NOW!


I would have to agree with you on that it is happening now. We are slowly loosing our rights and liberties.

Think about this; Even if we get a Republican/conservative President and control of both the House and Senate, do you honestly think that they will start drastic cuts in spending?

What would be the first to go? 
Probably entitlements, then watch all of the brood mares, druggies, wellfare recipients, Hud housing residents, illegals, a whole host of liberals and want something for nothings have a complete melt down and start at the very least civil disobedience. Then comes the funding for a whole host of programs that the Dems have been handing out to their cronies. The list of cuts could go on and on and include almost anyone. If that happens sit back and listen to the screaming and watch the riots begin.

Unfortunately drastic cuts in spending is the only way we as a country can ever hope to pay off the national debt, and even with those cuts I don't think it could be paid off in our Grandchildrens lifetime. 

I truly think that this Country is in serious trouble and I also truly believe all of the trouble we now have started when the powers that be started trying to take God out of this Country and out of our lives.

I am ashamed to say that we (myself included) Christians have stood by and allowed this to happen instead of screaming to high heaven and telling the ACLU, and any other "politically correct" group or organiztion to go straight to Hell.

We as Christians should have been hitting the streets in mass and proclaiming our beliefs, calling our representatives and telling them that if they want to continue in their jobs they had better get religion very quickly and stand up for the beliefs that our forefathers founded this Country on.

Forgive my rant, I am just Damn tired of looking for a light at the end of the tunnel and seeing nothing but a dim candle glow.


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## goodmedivice

It would be brilliant to ID the trigger than can cause such a mayhem(minus a any weather related catastrophe (we are strong enough as a nation to resolve such disaster) ). 

cool show i saw on TLC the other night "Living for the Apocalipse" about four different sets of preppers. Many wonder W*T*F are these people Mad?
I hope it becomes a regular, got to see alot of their setups.


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## tugboats

goodmedivice said:


> Sometimes I think about what kind of Indicator should I look out for that will notify me to step up my preps another level or worst get to my BOShelter.
> I would like to know what some of you think. what kind of triggers are you watching for that will tell you this is for real and its happening now.
> This is important for me because I dont want any imagined crisis affecting my daily "normal" life. I dont like to think im compulsive or paranoid as some may call us and ,I dont like my mind being consumed by rediculous Notions daily because it is unhealthy. I would like to go on my daily routine without thinking I better get another bag of rice, or is this the start of bad times.
> For example Glenn beck once said the absolute "trigger" would be when the chinese stops buying our bonds- then we got 1week befor the economy colapses. Someone may see there trigger as an unemployment rate of 18%.
> Another may see it when a 20lb bag of rice hits 25$. Because im not to smart about the economy and stuff my eye is on the chinese not buying our bonds, then ill shop till i drop. pls share


I wish I had the "Crystal Ball". This is like timing the stock market. Plus, hind sight is allways 20-20. The question is: not if but when?. Depending on how the populace behaves it might be weeks, years or decades. My pretty two pennies worth is that it will not happen on a grand scale. It will be small encroachments on our lives that very few will even notice. I choose not to be paranoid but I do prepare for what I feel is inevetable.

Even among us preppers we look for foods that have 25-30 year shelf life. If the "fertilizer hits the mix master" we will not need to worry about shelf life of our preps. Almost everyone here is hedging their bets as well. The makes the most sense, plan for the worst and pray for the best. All bets are off if there is a world shattering event.

My guess is that Isreal will not tolerate the current goings on much longer. When they stand up and hand out a few cans of "whoop a$$" oil will go through the roof, world trade will come to a standstill and our economy will take a nose dive. This is the scenario that I envision,

I take solace in the fact that we are Americans. We will survive and best any and all situations. We became the greatest nation on earth just by being Americans. We cheer on the underdog, allow all the chance to get ahead and most importantly allow everyone the option of success or failure. When more Americans get back in touch with the things that have made us great in the past it will make us greater in the future.

Because there is no timetable I hope I will be ready by morning or maybe 3 days from now or in 5 years. I pray that all of my stores will not be needed at any time, but I will not go down the road without a spare tire. My preps are the spare tire for the vehicle I call my future and the future of my family.
To quote John Wayne : "equal opportunity is predicated on equal obligation".


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## UncleJoe

oldvet said:


> I am just Damn tired of looking for a light at the end of the tunnel and seeing nothing but a dim candle glow.


Don't bother looking anymore.

"Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of gas, electricity, and oil, as well as current market conditions, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off." 

From another member's sig line.


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## VUnder

When Israel tears down the Dome of the Rock and commences to building Solomons Temple at its original location, you can probably take that as a little hint that things may be changing.....


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## BillS

UncleJoe said:


> You can also watch the U.S Dollar Index. Most of the financial sites I read say that if it drops below 70; look out.
> 
> DOLLAR INDEX SPOT (DXY:IND) Index Performance - Bloomberg
> 
> And Jezcruzen, I agree. We are on a long slow slide right now with no practical way to stop it.


I agree with you. I watch that Dollar Index every day. When the Dollar Index suddenly drops like a rock that'll mean that other countries are dumping the dollar. It's going to hit the fan when other countries dump the dollar and OPEC no longer accepts dollars as payment for oil. The US will go down really quick as all those dollars hit the economy. I believe we could see prices go up as much as ten fold in a very short time. We could go from normal living to a complete collapse in less than 30 days.


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## BillS

goodmedivice said:


> Sometimes I think about what kind of Indicator should I look out for that will notify me to step up my preps another level or worst get to my BOShelter.
> I would like to know what some of you think. what kind of triggers are you watching for that will tell you this is for real and its happening now.
> This is important for me because I dont want any imagined crisis affecting my daily "normal" life. I dont like to think im compulsive or paranoid as some may call us and ,I dont like my mind being consumed by rediculous Notions daily because it is unhealthy. I would like to go on my daily routine without thinking I better get another bag of rice, or is this the start of bad times.
> For example Glenn beck once said the absolute "trigger" would be when the chinese stops buying our bonds- then we got 1week befor the economy colapses. Someone may see there trigger as an unemployment rate of 18%.
> Another may see it when a 20lb bag of rice hits 25$. Because im not to smart about the economy and stuff my eye is on the chinese not buying our bonds, then ill shop till i drop. pls share


I think the trigger will be either sudden very large price increases on everything, especially gasoline.

I'm nervous enough about the economy that I want to get all I'm going to need by the end of this month with the exception of kerosene. I can't legally have more than 60 gallons in my garage.


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## BillS

oldvet said:


> I would have to agree with you on that it is happening now. We are slowly loosing our rights and liberties.
> 
> Think about this; Even if we get a Republican/conservative President and control of both the House and Senate, do you honestly think that they will start drastic cuts in spending?
> 
> What would be the first to go?
> Probably entitlements, then watch all of the brood mares, druggies, wellfare recipients, Hud housing residents, illegals, a whole host of liberals and want something for nothings have a complete melt down and start at the very least civil disobedience. Then comes the funding for a whole host of programs that the Dems have been handing out to their cronies. The list of cuts could go on and on and include almost anyone. If that happens sit back and listen to the screaming and watch the riots begin.
> 
> Unfortunately drastic cuts in spending is the only way we as a country can ever hope to pay off the national debt, and even with those cuts I don't think it could be paid off in our Grandchildrens lifetime.
> 
> I truly think that this Country is in serious trouble and I also truly believe all of the trouble we now have started when the powers that be started trying to take God out of this Country and out of our lives.
> 
> I am ashamed to say that we (myself included) Christians have stood by and allowed this to happen instead of screaming to high heaven and telling the ACLU, and any other "politically correct" group or organiztion to go straight to Hell.
> 
> We as Christians should have been hitting the streets in mass and proclaiming our beliefs, calling our representatives and telling them that if they want to continue in their jobs they had better get religion very quickly and stand up for the beliefs that our forefathers founded this Country on.
> 
> Forgive my rant, I am just Damn tired of looking for a light at the end of the tunnel and seeing nothing but a dim candle glow.


I don't believe your grandchildren will be paying off government debt. I believe that we'll see hyperinflation before too long and the government will pay off the debt with inflated dollars. So if the dollar becomes so worthless that a candy bar costs $1,000 then a $15 trillion dollar debt is more like a $15 BILLION dollar debt.

I really think that we'll see the total collapse of the US in the next two years and that will set the stage for the one world government prophesied by the Book of Revelation.


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## Ponce

And that's why you should have gold, or better yet, and silver........ remember the movie "Soylent Green?" where the cost of a jar of jam was of $178.00?...
that's why I am holding my PM as a preservation of my capital and not as an invesment........what cost me $2.50 today will cost me the same tomorrow.


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## partdeux

My opinion, it will be a black swan event. I fully expect to continue this pseudo limping along for a few years.

We have reached our exponential limits, limits on supporting the growing society, limits on financial growth, limits on govt supported socialism.


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## JayJay

Well, today I learned there have been 2 EQ..below 6.0, but still...

And then, a wild brush fire in California shutting down I-15....

and then oil re-emerging from the Gulf and they say it's not all new..that some is old material matching the 2010 remnants..

Now, Texas, Oklahoma, and Arizona are killing animals because they can't feed them through the winter..and crops WILL suffer due to their droughts.....

4 million fish died in rivers from volcanic ash in Brazil.

4 million acres of cropland were destroyed when the Missouri River was 'allowed' to flood.

and I haven't had but one rain in Kentucky for the last 3 months!!!!!

Is that enough, are you convinced it's more than about economic collapse for me---it's about food shortages...not in third world countries---BUT RIGHT HERE!!!

I can never have enough for dh and me...I think I'll go to Sam's and get more rice this weekend...I only have 500 lbs...why did I stop buying rice and tuna??? DUH

Now, I've read each view...and Israel??? That's why I read Luke 21: 7-36 EVERY morning...it is my 'center'.

God bless all us smart enough to be today's Noahs.


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## ashley8072

My best friend called and asked if she could take a shower at our house last week. I said sure. I was at work at the time. HUbby got home and she asked if I had any deodorant. He pointed her to the bathroom cabinet. She found my recent purchases of bathroom items to be shocking. She asked if I was prepping for the end of the world. Hubby said yes. lol! I talked to her later that day and she made a comment of me being a hoarder and why did I have things like 10 bottles of deodorant. I simply told her, my fav deodorant is $5 now, and I can barely make ends meet now. What makes you think I can buy them next year when their $10? lol! 
I found out that there's several dif kinds of preppers preparing for dif things. I'm preparing for my comfort items to become too expensive to get, or hard to come by, while I struggle to pay bills. I want to be prepared to bug in for weeks or months at a time and not have to worry how I'm going to buy that 1 roll of toilet paper.


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## JayJay

ashley8072 said:


> My best friend called and asked if she could take a shower at our house last week. I said sure. I was at work at the time. HUbby got home and she asked if I had any deodorant. He pointed her to the bathroom cabinet. She found my recent purchases of bathroom items to be shocking. She asked if I was prepping for the end of the world. Hubby said yes. lol! I talked to her later that day and she made a comment of me being a hoarder and why did I have things like 10 bottles of deodorant. I simply told her, my fav deodorant is $5 now, and I can barely make ends meet now. What makes you think I can buy them next year when their $10? lol!
> I found out that there's several dif kinds of preppers preparing for dif things. I'm preparing for my comfort items to become too expensive to get, or hard to come by, while I struggle to pay bills. I want to be prepared to bug in for weeks or months at a time and not have to worry how I'm going to buy that 1 roll of toilet paper.


Exactly Ashley..I haven't left the house in 9 days...no need to...and nice post.

Keep storing those things...they won't get cheaper...and anyone thinking they are wealthy enough to not be bothered??? 
The joke may be on them when the store is empty!!!:ignore:


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## ashley8072

JayJay said:


> Exactly Ashley..I haven't left the house in 9 days...no need to...and nice post.
> 
> Keep storing those things...they won't get cheaper...and anyone thinking they are wealthy enough to not be bothered???
> The joke may be on them when the store is empty!!!:ignore:


Thanks JayJay.  What got me started in prepping was when we ran out of toilet paper. We didn't have the fuel to use in the cars to drive to town, and had to buy at a local convienant store. $2 for ONE roll of crummy paper. That was the last time. When SHTF it takes us 20min to get to the nearest grocery store. By that time the necessities will be gone from people that live closer. All it takes is a Scare, and people are all out buying.


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## lotsoflead

ashley8072 said:


> My best friend called and asked if she could take a shower at our house last week. I said sure.* I was at work at the time. HUbby got home and she asked if I had any deodorant. He pointed her to the bathroom cabinet. *She found my recent purchases of bathroom items to be shocking. She asked if I was prepping for the end of the world. Hubby said yes. lol! I talked to her later that day and she made a comment of me being a hoarder and why did I have things like 10 bottles of deodorant. I simply told her, my fav deodorant is $5 now, and I can barely make ends meet now. What makes you think I can buy them next year when their $10? lol!
> I found out that there's several dif kinds of preppers preparing for dif things. I'm preparing for my comfort items to become too expensive to get, or hard to come by, while I struggle to pay bills. I want to be prepared to bug in for weeks or months at a time and not have to worry how I'm going to buy that 1 roll of toilet paper.


 she's not a friend, she's just a nosey acquaintance who can't be doing very good if she has to bum a shower, you can bet that you'll have another to feed and shower when TSHsTF


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## oldvet

I would say that we all have excellent points and indicaters as to where we are headed and we seem to be on a very fast pace getting there.

Speaking for myself all I can say is, I will continue to prep and store. I also have my unshakable faith in the Lord to keep me going.

Really what more can we do while waiting for the bottom to completely fall out.:dunno:


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## RevWC

oldvet said:


> What would be the first to go?
> Probably entitlements, then watch all of the brood mares, druggies, wellfare recipients, Hud housing residents, illegals, a whole host of liberals and want something for nothings have a complete melt down and start at the very least civil disobedience. Then comes the funding for a whole host of programs that the Dems have been handing out to their cronies. The list of cuts could go on and on and include almost anyone. If that happens sit back and listen to the screaming and watch the riots begin.


Yea but we are only talking about 100,000,000 people no problem. :gaah:


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## JayJay

ashley8072 said:


> Thanks JayJay.  What got me started in prepping was when we ran out of toilet paper. We didn't have the fuel to use in the cars to drive to town, and had to buy at a local convienant store. $2 for ONE roll of crummy paper. That was the last time. When SHTF it takes us 20min to get to the nearest grocery store. By that time the necessities will be gone from people that live closer. All it takes is a Scare, and people are all out buying.


My starting point came from an online friend in California..I told dh --the most procrastinating azzhole on the face of this beautiful earth---what she was doing and he said, when you're at the grocery, why not pick up a case(not just two or three cans, oh, no!) of extra ????? and I did; then found the prepper sites by accident, learned a billion things and started with water, supplies, BOBs....and the rest is history...THANK YOU PREPPER SITES!!!!


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## oldvet

RevWC said:


> Yea but we are only talking about 100,000,000 people no problem. :gaah:


Thanks Rev, I needed a good laugh.:2thumb:


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## Magus

The $h1t has already "hit the fan".
The fan's just not spinning fast enough to sling it properly yet.

It will,and there won't be ANY notice!


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## Emerald

ashley8072 said:


> My best friend called and asked if she could take a shower at our house last week. I said sure. I was at work at the time. HUbby got home and she asked if I had any deodorant. He pointed her to the bathroom cabinet. She found my recent purchases of bathroom items to be shocking. She asked if I was prepping for the end of the world. Hubby said yes. lol! I talked to her later that day and she made a comment of me being a hoarder and why did I have things like 10 bottles of deodorant. I simply told her, my fav deodorant is $5 now, and I can barely make ends meet now. What makes you think I can buy them next year when their $10? lol!
> I found out that there's several dif kinds of preppers preparing for dif things. I'm preparing for my comfort items to become too expensive to get, or hard to come by, while I struggle to pay bills. I want to be prepared to bug in for weeks or months at a time and not have to worry how I'm going to buy that 1 roll of toilet paper.


There is a lesson here young grasshopper(in the voice of the kung foo master) First lesson-I never keep my spare stash in the bathroom the steam and temp. fluctuations are not that good for stuff. second part of lesson one-if it had been stashed in the upstairs(or basement or spare room) cubby/shelf/ closet your friend would not have seen it.
I like a cheaper deodorant that has just as much active ingredient as the big expensive clinical strength one for women-Arrid XX dry (comes in several different fragrances and no fragrance)and Ban (vanilla) they both have 19% and the dove clinical has 20% humm.. which to buy Arrid has been on the 10 for $10/11th free sale about every other month and I had coupons for BOGO with the Ban and it was on sale so I decided to try it.(by the way I love the vanilla ban.. works great) and the Dove clincal $6.99 with a coupon!! 
So upstairs in the spare bedroom shelving unit is about 18 or so deodorants that were way under $20 to pick up.. who knows how much longer these prices are gonna last.
I've been lucky with the coupons and internet finds and got several coupons for full size "try me free" coupons last month.. combined with a buy one get one free coupon I ended up with 6 full sized items for free. Each item would have cost right around $3..

I'm of the opinion that we will not have a huge, all of a sudden, SHTF but more of a long slow "how the heck did this happen" SHTF.. Where all of a sudden we find ourselves in a world where nothing is affordable and it will be all we can do to keep ourselves fed with a roof overhead.. Then one day it all just stops.. The power will go out and no one will be there to fix it, cuz they have all been downsized and the job will be too big... chaos will happen after that and hopefully if we do come out of it in our life times things will be better.


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## Meerkat

Jezcruzen said:


> People.. its already hitting the fan... in slow motion so as the average person doesn't even notice. Its here. You need not wait or look for any clues. ITS HAPPENING NOW!


 I agree,the finisher is now in control.
I buy food when we can afford it,and try to get prepped for small things to keep us alive and not too miseable.
But most of our preps will be our chickens for eggs and our small garden.


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## HoppeEL4

I think it is happening slowly also. I am unsue of everyones ages here, I am 44 and can remember just back in the early 90's when my husband and I were first married. Things were pretty good, jobs were fairly easy to get, and finding reasonable places to live on a budget was also good. Gas prices were affordable, food prices were decent, overall the dollar was worth a heck of a lot more, and that was only 20 years ago (does not seem like it.....~sigh~....).

Now we have war/conflict, one after the other, financial troubles everywhere, corruption in the highest places, crime on the rise (due to lack of funding in many place in many police agencies), natural disaster affecting major crops....the list feels endless. 

Look, even here in the Pacific Northwest, we are in a cold streak for our springs and summers. It has adversely affected personal crops here. We could not start our garden till way too late, and nothing had really flourished. Many people we know have said the same. No early corn here. 

In other times, when population levels were much smaller, this would have affected our society differently, and of course in those times, our social morals and beleifs were different as to affect how people dealt with calamities. Now a good portion of our society has no problem with the idea of using force to get what they want, hurricane Katrina as an example (the looting).

I do firmly believe we are slipping down this slope, but it is slowly, we are just not as aware of it as much, with exception to people here, and some others.

Lord help us all when that last straw is out and it all finally is apparent to the whole society, and especially to those who are already trouble as is....


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## Immolatus

To me its all about the dollar as Bill said.
A collapse in the dollar could be brought about by a lot of different scenarios.
The most likely ones to me is where China decides to stop purchasing US debt, and/or the BRICS nations stop using the dollar as a reserve currency, which there is evidence they have already started.


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## gypsysue

Thar she is, folks: :shtf:

It's in the fan. If anything is added to our nation's economic downslide, such as a major earthquake or hurricane (yeh, I know about the east coast having both last week!), an EMP/solar flare, or terrorist attack, it's going to get bad fast. In the meanwhile, times just keep getting harder. We just hit the wall ourselves, so thank goodness for our preps. 

:surrender:


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## VUnder

You will find that when people lose everything, and they have nothing to lose, they really lose it.


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## Possumfam

Emerald said:


> Arrid has been on the 10 for $10/11th free sale about every other month and I had coupons for BOGO with the Ban and it was on sale so I decided to try it.


Where does that happen? What stores? Now for a stupid question, all you super couponers - is it just the Sunday paper or what?
(not intended to hijack thread - so sorry)


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## JayJay

All the more reason to hit Dollar Tree that I frequent---it has more groceries than any I've seen...it's 30 miles but worth it..prep too much???:dunno:
Is there such a thing??:2thumb:

Message this morning: God is the bread of life for the soul..

Yes, pastor, but right now, I'm a little concerned about the belly!!!


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## oldvet

JayJay said:


> All the more reason to hit Dollar Tree that I frequent---it has more groceries than any I've seen...it's 30 miles but worth it..prep too much???:dunno:
> Is there such a thing??:2thumb:
> 
> Message this morning: God is the bread of life for the soul..
> 
> Yes, pastor, but right now, I'm a little concerned about the belly!!!


JayJay: You are right on the mark, there is no such thing as too much prepping.

It's like I told my wife, one of two things will eventually happen, either the fecal matter will make contact with the oscillating cooling device and we are prepared for it or nothing happens and we have a very large amount of supplies that will last us quite a while. Either way...win win... :melikey:


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## HoppeEL4

I think that preparing is not outside of Biblical bounds at all. In times where people lived completely off the land, they always set aside food for as long as they could, it was survival and practical. Anywho, anyone who ignores the oncoming issues we have been seeing, and does nothing to prepare for a worst case scenario, is nothing short of the fool described in the Bible. Look even those who do not believe in Biblical prophecy are having shows on preparing, magazime articles talking about it, and websites devoted to it, so EVERYONE feels something coming on.

Should things stabilize for another 20-50 years, then great, wonderful even, keep your stock up and rotate as needed, and you can always count on being able to help others during those better times (close family I mean).


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## SageAdvicefarmgirl

VUnder said:


> Yes, but once the transportation shuts down, that is when society will get bad. Your biggest problem will be other people. People will be trying to make it as long as they can go. Of course, you can leave any time before that, if you choose. But, the auto deal is going to be significant. Once that happens, it will be a long time before things get back to running right.


All right, another Arkie in the house! Do you have a BOLocation away from LR?


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## BillS

Things are a lot different now than they were in September, 1978 when I first came to Wisconsin from Upper Michigan. The factories were in business and hiring. I walked into the Neenah Foundry and got hired on the spot. I started out at $5.67 an hour which would be $13 an hour in today's money. My first apartment cost me $160 a month. Back then gas was 56.9 cents a gallon. My liability insurance on my first car was about $100 every six months. There were good paying jobs for unskilled people without a college education. That's not true any more.


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## partdeux

BillS said:


> There were good paying jobs for unskilled people without a college education. That's not true any more.


The jobs are gone for the college educated too... I have three degrees, one state license, and a highly coveted certification. Working now, but don't consider it guaranteed.


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## Homegrowngirl

I agree, I believe that SHTF has already begun. It is a slow beginning, but will gain in speed as the time comes. We can't rely on the media because they only let us know what the government wants us to know. I see that when ever I look at the stock market and they contradict themselves almost daily on job growth and the economy. Just keep prepping, and go about your daily life, but be aware of false hopes that the media tries to push off on people.


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## Beanie

I agree...it's been a slow creeping in. The media sees the world as we are the 'oh so fabulous' and far too advanced a nation to even think about what would happen if the world suddenly took a giant step backwards in time. They still see through the rose colored glasses of 'it's up from here'...

Those talking heads with $800 suits will get hungry long before the preppers do. Hmmmm....how does one cook a suit? :scratch


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## stayingthegame

when 1% of the people control 90% of the wealth, what does that leave the rest of us.

living in the poor house and 
working for THEM!!!


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## BillS

It could start very soon. Check this out:

The Worst Is Yet to Come

"Europe is within days of a massive economic implosion that will put the entire global economy at risk of economic disaster. The Greek bailout is now in tatters. The EU is about to break apart. European banks are insolvent. There isn't enough money in all the world to save the EU. This will set off a chain reaction of epic proportions across the globe."

"The bad news is Europe won't go down without a fight . . . with America's money. The result of this economic Armageddon will be "the mother of all bailouts." I predict Bernanke and the Fed will team with central bankers all over the world to create the biggest coordinated economic rescue in world history."

"Call it QE3. Call it "the mother of all bailouts." Call it "Stimulus Squared." The name doesn't matter. The dollars involved will be the headline grabber. Trillions of dollars of artificial money will be pumped into the system in a desperate attempt to save the world economy. This will be the biggest government intervention in world history. And as always - it will fail miserably."


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## oldvet

BillS said:


> It could start very soon. Check this out:
> 
> The Worst Is Yet to Come
> 
> "Europe is within days of a massive economic implosion that will put the entire global economy at risk of economic disaster. The Greek bailout is now in tatters. The EU is about to break apart. European banks are insolvent. There isn't enough money in all the world to save the EU. This will set off a chain reaction of epic proportions across the globe."
> 
> "The bad news is Europe won't go down without a fight . . . with America's money. The result of this economic Armageddon will be "the mother of all bailouts." I predict Bernanke and the Fed will team with central bankers all over the world to create the biggest coordinated economic rescue in world history."
> 
> "Call it QE3. Call it "the mother of all bailouts." Call it "Stimulus Squared." The name doesn't matter. The dollars involved will be the headline grabber. Trillions of dollars of artificial money will be pumped into the system in a desperate attempt to save the world economy. This will be the biggest government intervention in world history. And as always - it will fail miserably."


BillS:

I can hope and pray all day long that you are wrong, but from everything I have seen, heard, and read, I do believe you are right on the money and I also believe that whatever befalls this country folks like us will survive. Other folks can call us crazy survivalists or anything else they care to, I don't care, what I do care about is me and mine surviving whatever is dealt us. That I believe is the total bottom line for everyone on this forum or we wouldn't be doing what we are doing and urging others to do it also.

Unfortunitely I think there will be millions upon millions of folks left with their mouths hanging open and wondering how "the government" is going to bail them out.

Hang in there friends and keep on keeping on and hopefully when we eventually start to rebuild this nation it will be done with Faith, Trust, and a whole big dose of Common Sense.


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## kejmack

I think the SHTF is happening slowly. By the time most people wake up and think to prepare, it will be too late.


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## oldvet

kejmack said:


> I think the SHTF is happening slowly. By the time most people wake up and think to prepare, it will be too late.


You, I believe are right on the money. No matter how much we have prepared or how well we are set up. Even those of use who will be living well off the "beaten path" can expect some of the non-prepaired to pay us a visit.

As I said in another post, we will turn no one away without at least giving them a meal unless they attempt to take what we have by force. If they attempt to use force, I hope the Lord will have mercy on their souls because when it comes to protecting my family I certainly won't.


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## Woody

Lots of interesting thoughts on this thread, I’ll add mine.

Change, and not for the better, has been coming slowly. It is the ‘give a little’ way it happens. Look at DHS and what has happened since they were started. First at airports it was screen your bag, then screen you too, then removing your shoes, then items started being denied, then the cancer scanners, then your attitude is looked at, now it is what, no taking pictures and they are using facial scanning? Look around at all the places OUR rights are slowly being eroded away. Lemonade stands, illegal to voice your opinion outside designated free speech areas, you need a permit to gather and voice your opinion… Something for sure is coming and it is not going to be pleasant.

Take the economy of the world. Slowly laws were enacted here to make it easier for US companies to send jobs overseas. NAFTA started it, ‘Mexico is our friend and they deserve jobs like we have here, it will be beneficial for the US to do this’… It was not a mass exodus but year by year jobs here were lost. India, China you name it, US companies shut down here and take up there while having corporate HQ somewhere else. I am not saying corporations are all evil, they did it because it makes financial sense, less for labor more in profits. That is how the system works you know. Now look at currencies. We have been screwed since the beginning of the FED and debt based monetary policy. We are at the point where there are not enough US dollars in the world to pay off our existing debt. They ‘create’ a dollar and at that point we owe .10 more than exists (or whatever the interest rate is at the time). Fast forward to where we owe trillions of dollars and how much ‘US currency’ actually exists in the world???

I believe the US debt is going to be inflated away. Old Ben is going to pump more dollars into the system. Heck with what has come to light with the partial FED audit, he has been doing it right along it is just that nobody was told! I bet the money creation and loans are happening as I write but we will never know. The system is a ponzi and unsustainable. It is doing now what it was designed, or destined to do. Look at a graph of the debt, it is racing skyward with no way to stop it. Austerity and cutting spending? If you think that is going to do anything to our escalating debt I have some property in Afghanistan to sell you. But, they will enact austerity measures against the main population. There will be massive cuts to programs that do not influence our ruling class (that includes politicians). Our taxes will increase as fast as prices for goods increase. Heck, it is happening now! As prices increase the taxes you pay for those goods increase! That $1.00 item you paid .07 tax on is now $2 and you pay $.14 tax on it.

Alright, I get long winded sometimes about all this. I only have the puppy to discuss this with and although she is a great listener, she is not much of a conversationalist. End thought. I do not believe we will see an all of a sudden SHTF moment, like flipping a light switch. It is sneaking up on us and as is happening now, slowly more and more regular folks are getting into trouble and slowly but surely more and more of us are going to join them. Preparing now to produce as much of your needs as possible is going to be the only way to sustain yourself and loved ones. Even with the inevitable ‘terrorist attack’ that is coming, that is not going to be the last straw. It will create more regulations and take away more of our freedoms until one day you will wake up and realize you have to scan your chip before you are allowed to leave your house. There will be no way around it either. Before they can accept your property tax you will need to be scanned… ‘for you protection’ of course!!!


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## oldvet

Woody;

Wow! Exellent post, I do believe you have hit the proverbial nail square on the head. You basically summed up everything that is leading to the downfall in four paragraphs. :thumbraise:

The only thing I have a problem with is the "chip" buisness. 

I WILL OBEY THE LORD'S WORD AND WILL NEVER TAKE THE MARK OF THE BEAST, BE IT A CHIP OR TATTOO OR WHATEVER FORM IT COMES AT US IN. :rant: 

THEY CAN TAKE THEIR CHIPS AND THEIR ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT AND STICK IT WHERE THE SUN DOSEN'T SHINE.


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## HoppeEL4

Woody, I agree with you. It is a slow process, but it is happening as we speak.

One example in my mind is the emissions tests required by most states for cars. Now I can agree that keeping air quality is in the best interest of everyone, but, what I found out was that police here (not sure about other places) could see a really bad vehicle, smokin down the road, and they could be stopped and their vehicle towed, taken from them. Now mind you, you do not see it often, but once in a while, you see one of those old beaters and the person driving it looks beyond destitute, it is not as if they have the money for something newer, or for engine work.

We have gotten to a point where little by little, the things even we all once agreed upon as a good thing enacted, has become something that is now infringing on peoples ability to function and prosper in this nation. All manner of government backed laws and regulations are making it hard to just live freely. This is how it is happening with everything, little by little, till there is no freedom to move about freely and pursue or obtain success. Right there is the reason for the downfall of this nation.


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## Meerkat

We worry about our families who refuse to prepare for bad times .We can't afford to prepare for them too.

Then you see all the foreigners doing better now than our sinking middle class and no comparison to our poor.
Go to WalMart and sit in the parking lot and see whos driving the new autos,big trucks,Cadilacs ,etc. Then look whos drivign the clunkers. Stand in checkout line and see what they buy with their food stamp cards.Go to clinics and see the exspensive test they get for them and their large families [especially prenatal cre for their many kids],test many of us can't afford or are denied by our dr.s because of cost.
While we still have to buy food,pay for care and have nobody to protect our security its hard to prepare when our broke in jobless.Watch who is workign now,from engineers and dr.s to ditch diggers its mostly foreign from 3nd world nations,many illegal from visa overstays or otherwise,and they keep brining them in from Somalia ,and other enemy filled nations.
Where do you bug out at in a nation like this one has become?


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## HoppeEL4

Meerkat, this subject is exactly what made me more proactive as I am now. I lived in an area where those here illegally were raping the system, and I witnessed it daily, even had one American born mother (married to an illegal alien) who bragged how she and the others in that area would lie to the state to get all sorts of benefits, saying the childrens father left them.......you can see where that was going.

I became so enraged one Christmas, us struggling as badly as we had been, and seeing these people roll into the complex above us, in their SUV's and trucks, unloading bags from several non-profits (bags were marked) with gifts for their kids, you're only supposed to sign up for one. Then they would haul in a back-end load from Walmart as well, loads of groceries....(I would witness their shopping at our local discount store with state food card, state cash on cards and WIC, while we pinched pennies and put things back).

I knew then that this was going to be one of the things that would pull this nation down, and knew preparing was our best bet, especially moving away from town. I also witnessed how these same people reacted to anything they deemed an "injustice" and know when things get bad, they will storm state offices, maybe some looting and/or break-ins of homes. They won't be the only ones though, Hurricane Katrina showed that even some of our own citizenry is capable of behavior we would normally attribute to angry masses in third world nations.

It is very hard to see people with no loyalty to this nation, and often times here illegally, prosper while Americans are living out of their vehicles, sometimes dumpster diving, and out of work. We can only hope that the tough times we all suspect and foresee ahead will purge our nation of aliens who only came here to financially benefit from our losses, then we can hope to rebuild things the way they needed to be all along, and get back to making America, and Canada the greatest nation(s), as they had been before.

You can bet you-know-what will hit the fan, people here in the US are getting fed-up, things are getting more rough, I have siblings (in their 50's) who have been out of work for over one year, and no prospects in sight, people with college loans unable to find any work to pay those loans, people losing homes, the list feels endless. People out there are noticibly more aggressive in their behavior (driving, in store lines and such) and I think it is due to the times.


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## USMCVeteran

goodmedivice said:


> Sometimes I think about what kind of Indicator should I look out for that will notify me to step up my preps another level or worst get to my BOShelter.
> I would like to know what some of you think. what kind of triggers are you watching for that will tell you this is for real and its happening now.
> This is important for me because I dont want any imagined crisis affecting my daily "normal" life. I dont like to think im compulsive or paranoid as some may call us and ,I dont like my mind being consumed by rediculous Notions daily because it is unhealthy. I would like to go on my daily routine without thinking I better get another bag of rice, or is this the start of bad times.
> For example Glenn beck once said the absolute "trigger" would be when the chinese stops buying our bonds- then we got 1week befor the economy colapses. Someone may see there trigger as an unemployment rate of 18%.
> Another may see it when a 20lb bag of rice hits 25$. Because im not to smart about the economy and stuff my eye is on the chinese not buying our bonds, then ill shop till i drop. pls share


I believe that the SHittingTF is happening incrementally. I've been a prepper since the 1970's. Given the present geopolitical turmoil around the world and the apparent slide into economic chaos in the U.S. and around the world mentally I've conditioned myself to accept the possibility that a collapse can happen at any time.

For your viewing pleasure:
National Inflation Association


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## Immolatus

Regarding BillS's post:

What I see is that no matter what happens with all the big banks, American and European and all the inflation they cause and all the backroom dealings and bailouts, I stil think they could prop up the govts almost indefinitely. Its been going on for this long, I think they can keep us all stringing along.
What it will come down to is when some higher up finanacial managers, and then the average Joe begins to lose faith in the dollar/Euro. After all, thats all it is, faith. It aint backed by anything, just our belief in it. If the public loses that faith, then the fiat system will collapse. If we no longer believe, then the dollar becomes worthless.

As for Roots article (I voted for him for VP last election) my real issue with what he says is him trying to pin it all on Obama, like there were no prblems under the previous administration. This is not all Obamas fault. Bush basically started most of this mess, both wars, the Patriot act, etc, and blaming it all on Obama is just scapegoating him for political reasons. while I may agree with those reasons, that doesnt ean the blame should be totally placed on his shoulders.
Its akin to blaming 'welfare queens' and others that exploit the system for the country's ills. They are essentially victims. For all the ranting about them, and illegals etc, not one of us would trade places with them.


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## Foreverautumn

HoppeEL4 said:


> Meerkat, this subject is exactly what made me more proactive as I am now. I lived in an area where those here illegally were raping the system, and I witnessed it daily, even had one American born mother (married to an illegal alien) who bragged how she and the others in that area would lie to the state to get all sorts of benefits, saying the childrens father left them.......you can see where that was going.
> 
> I became so enraged one Christmas, us struggling as badly as we had been, and seeing these people roll into the complex above us, in their SUV's and trucks, unloading bags from several non-profits (bags were marked) with gifts for their kids, you're only supposed to sign up for one. Then they would haul in a back-end load from Walmart as well, loads of groceries....(I would witness their shopping at our local discount store with state food card, state cash on cards and WIC, while we pinched pennies and put things back).
> 
> I knew then that this was going to be one of the things that would pull this nation down, and knew preparing was our best bet, especially moving away from town. I also witnessed how these same people reacted to anything they deemed an "injustice" and know when things get bad, they will storm state offices, maybe some looting and/or break-ins of homes. They won't be the only ones though, Hurricane Katrina showed that even some of our own citizenry is capable of behavior we would normally attribute to angry masses in third world nations.
> 
> It is very hard to see people with no loyalty to this nation, and often times here illegally, prosper while Americans are living out of their vehicles, sometimes dumpster diving, and out of work. We can only hope that the tough times we all suspect and foresee ahead will purge our nation of aliens who only came here to financially benefit from our losses, then we can hope to rebuild things the way they needed to be all along, and get back to making America, and Canada the greatest nation(s), as they had been before.


But...but...they're VICTIMS, HoppeEL...they're ALL GOD'S CHILDREN (and we're not, of course)...they ONLY want a BETTER LIFE...they're ENTITLED to all the stuff they want, 'cuz remember, we're all SEXISTS, BIGOTS, RACISTS, AND HOMOPHOBES!


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## oldvet

Foreverautumn said:


> But...but...they're VICTIMS, HoppeEL...they're ALL GOD'S CHILDREN (and we're not, of course)...they ONLY want a BETTER LIFE...they're ENTITLED to all the stuff they want, 'cuz remember, we're all SEXISTS, BIGOTS, RACISTS, AND HOMOPHOBES!


:melikey: Now that's funny.

So my question is if an illegal is an un-documented worker, is a drug dealer an un-licensed pharmacist? :dunno:


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## HoppeEL4

oldvet and foreverautumn.....we MUST know each other from another group, great minds think alike.

It is time for this nation, and Canada from what I have heard, to take back what our ancestors worked so hard to make. 

Part of the SHTF is this huge influx of people, illegally here, and a handful of aliens workers (those working here legally) who have no love for this place, and what it is about. It has been one of the factors in this whole process we have been talking about.

I know how these people live. I have seen the lack of forethought, simply living in the moment. I know they will not be prepared for the oncoming problems we all really see coming. There will be two scenarios for these people, either loot and riot (expecting for their handouts to continue if they demand enough) or to run home to their native lands. Either way, in the long run, we will be the winners, having been able to re-start and rebuild our country.


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## oldvet

Disregard this was a double post.


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## oldvet

HoppeEL4 said:


> oldvet and foreverautumn.....we MUST know each other from another group, great minds think alike.
> 
> It is time for this nation, and Canada from what I have heard, to take back what our ancestors worked so hard to make.
> 
> Part of the SHTF is this huge influx of people, illegally here, and a handful of aliens workers (those working here legally) who have no love for this place, and what it is about. It has been one of the factors in this whole process we have been talking about.
> 
> I know how these people live. I have seen the lack of forethought, simply living in the moment. I know they will not be prepared for the oncoming problems we all really see coming. There will be two scenarios for these people, either loot and riot (expecting for their handouts to continue if they demand enough) or to run home to their native lands. Either way, in the long run, we will be the winners, having been able to re-start and rebuild our country.


Very, very well put and I have to agree with you totally.

There will be a whole host of folks (citizens and illegals alike) that will be standing around with their mouths hanging open wondering when "Uncle Sugar" is going to come and bail them out.

Once a lot of them finally realize that they are on their own, then the trouble starts.

Folks if and when it hits the fan, get the heck out of the cities or any large towns that have a bunch of the types of people that want something for nothing or will want what you have.

If what we fear comes to pass there will be civil unrest, riots, looting, murders, and just about any type of lawlessness you can think of.

So unless you live in a serious fort and have a private army with heavy weapons, unlimited food, water, and ammo, and figure you can fend off any attack, get the heck out of Dodge.

I realize I am probably preaching to the choir, but I said it anyway.


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## stayingthegame

most cars made after about 2000 have a black box. if you are in an accident the box will tell the insurance company how fast you were driving when you started to brake when you impacted, ect. YOU can not refuse the "officials" the right to check this box. also some of the newer car like those with on star can be controlled from a far remotely. there was a place on line that showed you how to defeat the black box but when I looked lately I could not find it :scratch:dunno:. some of the boxes are suppose to send your information wirelessly to whoever requests it.


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## HoppeEL4

Oldvet, I am glad we are outside of the "metro" area here. We did live in town, and we saw the continous downgrade of the area we were in, and this is what really prompted us, even before our move, to start planning for the worst. When you see the degredation of one area, and know this is multiplied all around the nation, you cannot deny the need to be away from it and be prepared to wait out the potential social disasters that will come from the numerous financial straits to come.


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## kejmack

stayingthegame said:


> most cars made after about 2000 have a black box. if you are in an accident the box will tell the insurance company how fast you were driving when you started to brake when you impacted, ect. YOU can not refuse the "officials" the right to check this box. also some of the newer car like those with on star can be controlled from a far remotely. .


I just want to point out that there are legitimate reasons for the blackbox. One night we had a child that was abducted from the jurisdiction where I work. The offender then stole a car that had a blackbox. We were able to use the location of the blackbox through OnStar to locate the vehicle and have the Mississippi authorities intercept it as it careened down the highway at 85+ miles per hour. I doubt we could have found that child alive if it had not been for OnStar!


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## oldvet

HoppeEL4 said:


> Oldvet, I am glad we are outside of the "metro" area here. We did live in town, and we saw the continous downgrade of the area we were in, and this is what really prompted us, even before our move, to start planning for the worst. When you see the degredation of one area, and know this is multiplied all around the nation, you cannot deny the need to be away from it and be prepared to wait out the potential social disasters that will come from the numerous financial straits to come.


I believe you made a very wise move getting out when you did. As I said I firmly believe that the main problems folks will be facing will be in the large "metro" areas. :2thumb:

If I see the time is right, and we do bug out we only have a little less than 30 miles to go to our BOL and that is all back roads.

We will be well off the beaten path and I don't forsee many people comming our way. If they do and they have malicious intent, they will be dealt with. :club:


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## TheAnt

kejmack said:


> I just want to point out that there are legitimate reasons for the blackbox. One night we had a child that was abducted from the jurisdiction where I work. The offender then stole a car that had a blackbox. We were able to use the location of the blackbox through OnStar to locate the vehicle and have the Mississippi authorities intercept it as it careened down the highway at 85+ miles per hour. I doubt we could have found that child alive if it had not been for OnStar!


I laughed when I read this post and thought of the following, "those that would trade freedom for security deserves neither".

The fact that something has been used for good (or bad) from time to time does not justify it being forced on everyone against their free will.


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## LincTex

Immolatus said:


> Its akin to blaming 'welfare queens' and others that exploit the system for the country's ills. They are essentially victims. For all the ranting about them, and illegals etc, not one of us would trade places with them.


How can you mean this? Victims HOW exactly? Everybody I see (and I mean EVERYONE) that is in line in front of me paying for their groceries with a LoneStar card has nicer clothes than me and drives a nicer car!!! HOW IS IT THEY ARE VICTIMS?!?!

"wouldn't trade places with them"... it is because they refuse to get off their butts and get to WORK!!!! I work and get taxed like crazy, but get no government handouts at all. Their lives are miserable because they BRING IT ON THEMSELVES.

When you take away someone's purpose in life, they become miserable. What they need more than handouts is a PURPOSE.


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## TheAnt

LincTex said:


> How can you mean this? Victims HOW exactly? Everybody I see (and I mean EVERYONE) that is in line in front of me paying for their groceries with a LoneStar card has nicer clothes than me and drives a nicer car!!! HOW IS IT THEY ARE VICTIMS?!?!
> 
> "wouldn't trade places with them"... it is because they refuse to get off their butts and get to WORK!!!! I work and get taxed like crazy, but get no government handouts at all. Their lives are miserable because they BRING IT ON THEMSELVES.
> 
> When you take away someone's purpose in life, they become miserable. What they need more than handouts is a PURPOSE.


Big ups! :congrat:


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## LincTex

TheAnt said:


> I laughed when I read this post and thought of the following, "those that would trade freedom for security deserves neither".
> 
> The fact that something has been used for good (or bad) from time to time does not justify it being forced on everyone against their free will.


So true!!!!


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## kejmack

TheAnt said:


> I laughed when I read this post and thought of the following, "those that would trade freedom for security deserves neither".


No one forces you to install OnStar. You can buy something other than GM if you don't want it.

If it was your 3 yr old child or grandchild, you might not be so smug.


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## HoppeEL4

LincTex, so true. They play the victims, but they are not. 

However Immolatus, I agree these people will eventually be prisoners to their own played up "victim" state they have gotten caught up in. However, they got themselves into it and they wanted it, so as far as I see, they do not get my sympathy.

These are the people who, either American or illegals, have decided life would be easier if they could be the victim, it was a choice, and they will be the first to suffer when SHTF.....Our set, who have been proactive to prepare for the future, will make it.


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## HozayBuck

UncleJoe said:


> Don't bother looking anymore.
> 
> "Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of gas, electricity, and oil, as well as current market conditions, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off."
> 
> From another member's sig line.


:beercheer::beercheer::2thumb::2thumb:


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## lhalfcent

i have come to the conclusion we are just past the start of the SHHTF.
today a report is out that 15.1% of americans are in poverty over 10% are unemployed and that does not include under employed and those who quit looking. 
so I am guessing we are most likely at 22 or more % unemployment. maybe more. 
hyperinflation is near and already we are feeling the affects of the droughts and floods on our crops.
so yeah, we are there it is just rolling slowly along much like a tidal wave begins. the big wave when it hits will devestate all in its path. sigh


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## BillS

TheAnt said:


> I laughed when I read this post and thought of the following, "those that would trade freedom for security deserves neither".
> 
> The fact that something has been used for good (or bad) from time to time does not justify it being forced on everyone against their free will.


Onstar can tell you where your car is. Onstar isn't the government. Or the black box can tell you how fast your car was going. I don't see either one as a threat to our privacy or safety from the government.


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## Ezmerelda

We're all frogs in a big ole pot of water on the stove. The fire gets hotter, but it's gradual enough to keep us from jumping out. By the time it's boiling, it will be too late.


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## goshengirl

Ezmerelda said:


> We're all frogs in a big ole pot of water on the stove. The fire gets hotter, but it's gradual enough to keep us from jumping out. By the time it's boiling, it will be too late.


That, sadly, is an excellent description. :gaah:


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## VUnder

BillS said:


> Onstar can tell you where your car is. Onstar isn't the government. Or the black box can tell you how fast your car was going. I don't see either one as a threat to our privacy or safety from the government.


But, I don't like the idea of somebody being able to turn off my vehicle because they think it is the best thing to do. Maybe I am heading to my retreat with my family. It wouldn't go over good in the old days if they shot your horse out from under you "just because they could".

Some people want their privacy respected. Others think "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear".

If the police come to search my house for no reason, you will be hearing about it on the national news the next morning.

My sis, she don't care, she has nothing to hide, so she has nothing to fear. She thinks it is fine, they don't even have to show her a warrant. She is not a dummy. Bill Clinton sent her to college. In high school she was taking calculus in college at night and had a 105 average, but she is a blue blooded liberal all the way through.

The government that can give you anything you want can take anything you have. By letting this go on, they can control you if they want to. Federal wire taps are illegal too. They still use them all the time, they just don't use them in court. But, with the wire tap, they find out what is going on, where without the wire tap, they would never know. Just because it is illegal, doesn't mean they don't do it.

When you have a speeding ticket, should be gone in three years. Guy did a crime, they couldn't understand why, because he had only had three tickets in his whole life. So, those things are on a record somewhere, and they really never go away. I am all about liberty, freedom, capitalism, free market solutions, choice and competition. I am requesting for that to be on my tombstone.


----------



## Foreverautumn

oldvet said:


> Folks if and when it hits the fan, get the heck out of the cities or any large towns that have a bunch of the types of people that want something for nothing or will want what you have.
> 
> If what we fear comes to pass there will be civil unrest, riots, looting, murders, and just about any type of lawlessness you can think of.
> 
> So unless you live in a serious fort and have a private army with heavy weapons, unlimited food, water, and ammo, and figure you can fend off any attack, get the heck out of Dodge.


Well, oldvet, I may be screwed in that regard. I live in a single-bedroom apartment in a city, and my family is scattered to the four winds (i.e., all across the country). Depending on exactly HOW shtf, they may not be in any position to take me in. So, in my humble opinion, I have no realistic place to go (again, depending on just what excrement hits what fan). And even if I did, until I actually GOT there, I'd be just another refugee.


----------



## stayingthegame

who ordered onstar to stop the car with the child in it? 
they are the one I would be afraid of.


----------



## LincTex

VUnder said:


> But, I don't like the idea of somebody being able to turn off my vehicle because they think it is the best thing to do. Maybe I am heading to my retreat with my family.


Cut and/or remove the antenna. That should do the trick.


----------



## VUnder

There is more to it than that. My bro works for the phone company. His vehicle is tracked all day every day. He showed me how he does it, and it ain't easy.


----------



## LincTex

VUnder said:


> My bro works for the phone company. His vehicle is tracked all day every day.


Not if it is stock... it must have added equipment.


----------



## kejmack

BillS said:


> Onstar can tell you where your car is. Onstar isn't the government. Or the black box can tell you how fast your car was going. I don't see either one as a threat to our privacy or safety from the government.


OnStar is a TOOL! It is an excellent tool if you are abducted or if you are unconscious from an accident. I have sent EMS and Fire out numerous times when OnStar has notified us of a crash with airbag deployment. Undoubtedly it has saved many lives.

Secondly, do you people who are afraid of OnStar have cellphones???? Do you know that the police can LEGALLY look at your cellphone WITHOUT A SEARCH WARRANT when you are arrested? Do you not realized that the police can look at your cellphone and find out exactly where you have been? We use cellphone records all the time in the police department to solve murders and rapes by putting the suspect at the scene of the crime.


----------



## BillM

*Hideing !*

I made my living tracking people down for the last fifteen years I worked prior to my retirement.

I tracked down some pro's at hiding. They all wanted to know how I found them.

It is impossible to hide in the USA unless you are a psychotic genius with a lot of cash and a physical disguise capability.

You have to be able and willing to break all ties with anyone who knows you and that includes all friends and relatives.

You can never use a credit card or a cell phone unless it is stolen.

You can never use your own name again.

You must have several documented identitys and separate cover storys and life historys for each one.

You must totally change your appearance because you will be photographed any time you go out in public.

You must change the habits you are known for. Example : Do you gamble, golf, fish in Bass tournaments, go to concerts, etc.

You can never submit your finger prints or DNA to anyone.

Don't get sick or hurt! The hospital and or doctor will want a medical history !

Are you getting the picture yet ?


----------



## MyBackAchers

*When?*



Jezcruzen said:


> People.. its already hitting the fan... in slow motion so as the average person doesn't even notice. Its here. You need not wait or look for any clues. ITS HAPPENING NOW!


I agree 100%. it is happening now. But most people don't know the real cause so here goes. Believe it or not:

Outside our solar system is a brown dwarf. You can see it in google sky now. Here's how: Click on google sky, click on the bottom button "constellations" and then click on Leo so the map moves to Leo. Let the page load and then click on the infrared button. It's the blue sparkly thing under the front paw of the lion.

The sun is under Virgo, you can see it if you zoom out. See the blue energy between the brown dwarf and the sun? We get to go through it in late Feb-early March. Wanna bet all the "authorities" are deep under ground then?


----------



## gypsysue

So... is this the first time Eearth has passed through that blue energy line? Do we know what will happen? Is it radiation, or EMP-like? 

It would be nice to have a few more details for those of us who read that and said "huh?"


----------



## Vertigo

To get back on topic, as I have come to believe, waiting for any one single or group of signals that would announce a SHTF situation is about to start is a very unwise thing to do. 

First of all, playing the waiting game will only push yourself to postpone exactly those investments that will be so difficult and expensive to obtain once the SHTF. Waiting to order that batch of corn and rice, waiting to buy that generator, that piece of land or that underground tank for gasoline, will make it impossible and/or prohibitively expensive to obtain them at some fictious set moment in time. It also pushes all those expenses to one single date, instead of spreading them out over months and years.

Secondly, playing the waiting game will also make you postpone acquiring the necessary skills and way of living necessary to more easily acclimate after the SHTF. 

Thirdly, I do not believe in specific events that make you prepare. These big events are usually only recognised afterwards by historians, while for those in the middle of it, it is not so easy to recognise. And even if it were, it would be an event so big that every one else would get the same ideas and we come back to my first and second point.

In my honest and humble opinion, if you are now thinking about preparing or getting ready, this should be all the reason you ever need to actually start. The biggest thing you must do however, is not to let your preps impact your daily life. Therefore, start small and with the basics. Get your finances in check, get out of debt, spend less on comfort items like restaurants, hobbies and a big car, then spend some on things like a generator, extra fuel, basic foods and a way to cook them and a way to clean and store water. When you do all this, you shouldn't be impacted in a big way in your daily life, but you will be much more prepared. Then keep up the lifestyle as best you can.

just my 2 eurocents,

V.


----------



## Foreverautumn

Vertigo said:


> In my honest and humble opinion, if you are now thinking about preparing or getting ready, this should be all the reason you ever need to actually start. The biggest thing you must do however, is not to let your preps impact your daily life. Therefore, start small and with the basics. Get your finances in check, get out of debt, spend less on comfort items like restaurants, hobbies and a big car, then spend some on things like a generator, extra fuel, basic foods and a way to cook them and a way to clean and store water. When you do all this, you shouldn't be impacted in a big way in your daily life, but you will be much more prepared. Then keep up the lifestyle as best you can.


I agree, Vertigo; anyone who waits until he sees a "sign" to start prepping all at once is going to wind up a day late and a dollar short - not a whole lot better off than the sheeple. 

That being said, I cannot realistically prepare completely for every single possible contingency; such people who try are, in my arrogant opinion, either rich or obsessed, or both. I do what I can, with what I've got, just like the guy on Today's Survival says.


----------



## goshengirl

Vertigo, you're singing to the choir here.  People on this site aren't waiting to prep (prepping is why they're here). Some just wonder what S hitting the F looks like - when does the beginning of the end (so to speak) start.


----------



## Vertigo

goshengirl said:


> Vertigo, you're singing to the choir here.  People on this site aren't waiting to prep (prepping is why they're here). Some just wonder what S hitting the F looks like - when does the beginning of the end (so to speak) start.


Well, then I must have completely misunderstood the original poster.

But even I have, the question would still be as unimportant as it would be pointless. Trying to accurately predict what specific event will be the catalyst for _the_ hypothetical SHTF moment, is something better asked from a fortune teller, then from a sane human being. There are just way too many possibilities out there to accurately predict just next weeks weather, let alone world geo-politics.

I am sorry for being so blunt about it, but too many people like 'reading' and fantasizing about prepping, while never actually going out and doing anything. It is at those times that vague questions like these pop up: "How to recognise a SHTF situation?", "What gun is the best to buy?", "Is this bug-out bag big enough?", etc.

well, it is late and this spanish wine isn't helping my mood 

rant off

V.


----------



## JayJay

We understand...and most here are not just reading and 'wondering'..as for me, I learn a fact each time I log on...or why bother..it may be an economic disaster fact or something simple in prepping..I've been at this for 3 years...I'm okay with it happening today---JUST AS LONG AS I GET TO PUSH THAT 'RESET' BUTTON AND GET MY AMERICA BACK!!!
Fire CONgress; get back to God given rights; nothing is given by law or regulations; only through God.
Most people want God's world, but not God. Sad..

Rant offf!!!:ignore:

God bless federal reserve..don't even ask.


----------



## UncleJoe

JayJay said:


> God bless federal reserve..don't even ask.


Nice touch.  :congrat:


----------



## JayJay

UncleJoe said:


> Nice touch.  :congrat:


I thought so---I'm not on enough lists..let's join a few more---and give those snooping bastards something to read..

Federal Reserve...a license to steal.


----------



## goodmedivice

Vertigo said:


> The biggest thing you must do however, is not to let your preps impact your daily life. Therefore, start small and with the basics. Get your finances in check, get out of debt, spend less on comfort items like restaurants, hobbies and a big car, then spend some on things like a generator, extra fuel, basic foods and a way to cook them and a way to clean and store water. When you do all this, you shouldn't be impacted in a big way in your daily life, but you will be much more prepared. Then keep up the lifestyle as best you can.
> 
> just my 2 eurocents,
> 
> V.


 Thanks, this is the ballance that im trying to get. Have a normal life while learning about self sufficiency and putting stuff on the side. I'm really happy with what i got so far. there's perishable stuff i would like to get just before the last minute such as gas, candy ,& jerky. Their is also things i need to do , like move my storage to another. so a week or a month will give me a chance to do this without being stuck in a line or traffic. I'm not to worried about wars, 2012, or natural disaster , i believcve if anything, it will be an economic coollapse .


----------



## oldvet

JayJay said:


> I thought so---I'm not on enough lists..let's join a few more---and give those snooping bastards something to read..
> 
> Federal Reserve...a license to steal.


Lol, I hear you and totally understand, Let me see, former militia member, retired military, retired L.E., Christian, BATFE supporter :rantall of my firearm purchases are on paper) , a member of a preppers site (duh!), and last but not least my name is on almost every type of petition and written protests that you can think of.
List, what list? eep:
Not me no sir they don't know me! NOT!!. The big question is; Do I really care how much big brother knows about me? NOPE I DON'T. They can take all of their lists and use them in place of toilet tissue or stuff them in the orifice of their choice.::rantoff:


----------



## flayer

*When...*

Well I agree with some of what I've read here, I think it's in progress now. 
Anyone who has studied History should have a sick feeling in the pit of their stomach when the decline and fall of the Roman Empire is examined and the stunning parallels to the decline of the United States of American are realized. It is frankly, well... eerie and depressing. 
I have had that feeling in my stomach for some time and whether it be a species/racial ESP or a nudge from higher up it, a little imagination can be an unsettling thing.


----------



## gatorglockman

Interesting post and responses.

I think the US has experienced several episodes of unrest wherein confidence has been lost, economy has failed, our ways that worked have been lost or division has separated us. Crap man....if you lived in the 70's, you felt what we are feeling now to a large degree. Morons in charge, morons on the street...wise people planning. That said, I am not gripping fear that we will indeed collapse, as we are a smart group of people and we have resolve when truly tested. If I did not believe that, I would certainly not be living here anymore. Now I say this as my gloves are up and I am ready for anything..

I don't think you will get "a sign" per the OP's orig question. We are all preppers so we get it. I think, bar a disaster or real collapse of the union, we won't get a flare gun effect to shelter in place and defend. Grey is the threat advisory color of the day. 

Building a better lifestyle, having confidence in my prep the best I can and working to cultivate a set of friends/local community in league is the best ideal for me. Outwit, outlast, out play is the focal point I come to.


----------



## stcycly66

We have been "living in Rome" for many years. Look at the lifestyles of the ancient romans and see what you think...and Rome imploded upon itself.


----------



## Johnboy

goodmedivice said:


> Sometimes I think about what kind of Indicator should I look out for that will notify me to step up my preps another level or worst get to my BOShelter.
> I would like to know what some of you think. what kind of triggers are you watching for that will tell you this is for real and its happening now.
> This is important for me because I dont want any imagined crisis affecting my daily "normal" life. I dont like to think im compulsive or paranoid as some may call us and ,I dont like my mind being consumed by rediculous Notions daily because it is unhealthy. I would like to go on my daily routine without thinking I better get another bag of rice, or is this the start of bad times.
> For example Glenn beck once said the absolute "trigger" would be when the chinese stops buying our bonds- then we got 1week befor the economy colapses. Someone may see there trigger as an unemployment rate of 18%.
> Another may see it when a 20lb bag of rice hits 25$. Because im not to smart about the economy and stuff my eye is on the chinese not buying our bonds, then ill shop till i drop. pls share


I think things are already on a down-hill slide. Whether it can be reversed, or stopped or slowed is the question. I would like to be optimistic but I'm not. When the inflation rate and the unemployment rate both go above 15%, things will get much worse very rapidly. Unless the Republicans take back the Senate and White House AND act quickly to cut government and reduce taxes and regulations, I expect we'll see both rates above 15% as early as 2013.


----------



## BillS

clementius said:


> Over at the Shadowstats web site is a fairly chilling report in which Mr. Williams gives his opinion that the latest date when hyperinflation will hit in the states is the end of 2014.
> 
> I've followed that site for some time, because he gives very good reason why the consumer price index, inflation index, unemployment, and other government reported numbers are fabricated/falsified - then gives his own.
> 
> The report on hyperinflation got me going seriously, though.


----------



## BillS

Johnboy said:


> I think things are already on a down-hill slide. Whether it can be reversed, or stopped or slowed is the question. I would like to be optimistic but I'm not. When the inflation rate and the unemployment rate both go above 15%, things will get much worse very rapidly. Unless the Republicans take back the Senate and White House AND act quickly to cut government and reduce taxes and regulations, I expect we'll see both rates above 15% as early as 2013.


I think it's too late for that. Not only is our official national debt out of control, unfunded liabilities for 2010 were an additional $5.3 trillion. They now total an estimated $60 trillion.

U.S. funding for future promises lags by trillions - USATODAY.com


----------



## JayJay

BillS said:


> I think it's too late for that. Not only is our official national debt out of control, unfunded liabilities for 2010 were an additional $5.3 trillion. They now total an estimated $60 trillion.
> 
> U.S. funding for future promises lags by trillions - USATODAY.com


I wasn't going to post---but since you said it--I totally agree---those with their heads not in their XXXX or in the clouds are saying the same thing..
what can we expect from an irresponsible CONgress that raised the debt ceiling on one that interest-only pmts are being made and not easily, at that, but at a sacrifice of the peoples' commodities??

I think they know what's going down---total collapse.:dunno:

If I had a credit card about to be recalled(whatever that term is), would my last night on that card be Wendy's or Red Lobster??
That $20 headset or the awesome 52 inch big screen??
Kmart or Macy's???

Oh, they know.


----------



## lickit

*I"m building all the credit I CAN*

and fully intend to do the last "emergency" part of the "stocking-up" with OPM, as the real estate people call it (other people's money) After all, if shtf, nobody is going to be collecting any debts, eh? I have no intention of buying land, I will simply hide out on public land, where my caches and dugout are located.


----------



## oldvet

JayJay said:


> I wasn't going to post---but since you said it--I totally agree---those with their heads not in their XXXX or in the clouds are saying the same thing..
> what can we expect from an irresponsible CONgress that raised the debt ceiling on one that interest-only pmts are being made and not easily, at that, but at a sacrifice of the peoples' commodities??
> 
> I think they know what's going down---total collapse.:dunno:
> 
> If I had a credit card about to be recalled(whatever that term is), would my last night on that card be Wendy's or Red Lobster??
> That $20 headset or the awesome 52 inch big screen??
> Kmart or Macy's???
> 
> Oh, they know.


 :ranton:

Sure they know, they just don't care about anyone or anything except their own power hungry, greedy, sorry excuses for human beings selves.

They will sit back in their richly appointed retreats with all the wind and solar power they will ever need, food for decades and probably even servants to take care of them hand and foot. All of that having been paid for with "our money" that they have stolen from us over and over again.

Do these "elected officials" care about "we the people" or what could be the total downfall of this Country of ours? I would imagine everyone on this forum knows the answer to that question.:gaah:

It seems to me that no matter if we get a consertative President and every member of the house and senate is a consertative, I still don't see how in the world we can be pulled out of the total collapse that we are facing.

The sky is falling, the sky is falling, get your tin foil hats. NOT!
Maybe a decade ago that could have been said of us, but not now. We know better or we darn sure wouldn't be doing the prepping we are doing instead of running around wringing our hands and wondering how "big brother" is going to take care of us.

IMHO the only Presidential candidate with any integerity, and is a buisness man instead of a career leach oh I meant polititian, is Herman Cane (sp). He probably doesn't stand a snowballs chance in Hell of getting nominated much less elected and that is a Damn shame.

Agree or disagree that is your right, but as i said that is just my opinion. :rantoff:

DM


----------



## lickit

*Ron Paul is a fine man.*

and has lots of support, but no media chance.


----------



## analogman

Also remember that it may only be hitting your fan! Losing your job, being injured and unable to work, unexpected expenses, local power outages or natural events. You may have to ride out a personal crisis long before it hits the big fan!


----------



## HoppeEL4

analogman, VERY exellent point. We experienced this just a little bit ago, were getting some very wet snow, and of course it weighed down the lines and out went the power...not for too long, but we had firewood for our woodstove, heat, a way to boil water (saved up too), plenty of canned goods to warm up on aforementioned woodstove (should power stay out long), candles, matches and other supplies. We only had power out for very little, but we were comfortable, warm, hydrated and fed.


----------



## greaseman

Interesting posts. I noticed the posting dates, and now we have the advantage of more time passing, and we can see if some of the ideas mentioned have panned out. In a short answer--yes. Here's my 2 cents worth. One of the things i watch for is definetly trouble in the banking sectors, both domestic, and international. if you have been following alternative news at all, you know Europe is barely hanging on to solvency. the US is in no better shape though. I have read much analysis of what to watch for, and I think the Euro has a better chance at collapsing before the dollar. This problem with the Greek debt just isn't going to go away, and no matter how much happy talk is put out there, Greece is going down. since all the banks are connected through derivatives used for insurance purposes, what happens to one, has an effect on all of them.
So, if trouble in Europe goes ballistic, I don't think we have long before our banks are going on hoilday. Plus, you notice our fearless leaders are doing everything they can to go to war with Iran. This is called distraction, and they have used it many times.--it works. Our idiot FED has used all the bullets in their economy gun, and there is nothing left to do but QE to infinity. We know that isn't going to work forever.
In some of the alternative news circles I read, next month, sometimes in March, has been speculated as when our leaders are going to call for a bank holiday. They know it's all over. When you add up everything that's going on, this guess is as good as any other I have heard.
We know that there are many domestic troop movements going on inside our borders as we speak. There are also continous "training" exercises going on weekly. There have also been notices put out for employment opportunities in some of the Fema camps.(on the down low, of course). Then you have the passage of the NDAA. How much more evidence do we need. Something is getting ready to happen, and I don't think we have long to wait.
My advice, do what your're going to do, and get it done, The fat lady is about to sing. when the SHTF, human nature will take over, and when the sheeple figure out that the government has been lying to them all along, and the entitlements start to slow down, or stop, it ain't going to be pretty. What do you think is going to happen when the banks are closed, the ATM's don't work, and the president declares martial law? At one single moment in time, 100% of the sheeple, are going to figure out that they don't have enough supplies to last even a couple weeks, and run to the ATM's , and run to the stores, in an effort to get what they need.
we all know how that's going to turn out. Have a great day, and good luck to us all.


----------



## BillM

*Tshtf*

TSWHTF , will happen when the trucks stop rolling on the interstates for any reason for more than a week.

Regardless of what the initial cause is, the result will be the same .


----------



## Tweto

BillM said:


> TSWHTF , will happen when the trucks stop rolling on the interstates for any reason for more than a week.
> 
> Regardless of what the initial cause is, the result will be the same .


I think you have a good point!:2thumb:


----------



## greaseman

*shtf*



BillM said:


> TSWHTF , will happen when the trucks stop rolling on the interstates for any reason for more than a week.
> 
> Regardless of what the initial cause is, the result will be the same .


You are correct. But the trucks not rolling will be just one of the many indicators of a maze of problems. I predict that trucks won't roll without a military esscort. Many people, who can't get any food at the local grocery store, because the ATM's have no cash, cause the banks are closed, will be on the rampage. Just remember human nature. it wins out every time. 
I prefer to be at home, armed, and working with my neighbors, guarding the neighborhood from the hungry masses who will, by necessity, start pillaging for food. It's just a natural course of events, all brought on by a collapse that has been planned for a long time.
My policy to help me decide what to do---Anything the government tells you--believe the opposite, and you'll know the truth. How many people believe we are in a recovery??? You get the picture. How many people believe that QE to infinity is going to fix the economy?? How many people believe we must invade, and go to war on Iran, because they are a threat to us??? The masses are waking up slowly, and the elites can't have this. So, get ready for a collapse soon. We will have a major bad event, whether false flag or otherwise, very soon. The wheels are coming off the wagon, and one show is abnout to end, and the next performance begin. Have a great day. keeep preppin.


----------



## greaseman

*now*



oldvet said:


> I would have to agree with you on that it is happening now. We are slowly loosing our rights and liberties.
> 
> Think about this; Even if we get a Republican/conservative President and control of both the House and Senate, do you honestly think that they will start drastic cuts in spending?
> 
> What would be the first to go?
> Probably entitlements, then watch all of the brood mares, druggies, wellfare recipients, Hud housing residents, illegals, a whole host of liberals and want something for nothings have a complete melt down and start at the very least civil disobedience. Then comes the funding for a whole host of programs that the Dems have been handing out to their cronies. The list of cuts could go on and on and include almost anyone. If that happens sit back and listen to the screaming and watch the riots begin.
> 
> Unfortunately drastic cuts in spending is the only way we as a country can ever hope to pay off the national debt, and even with those cuts I don't think it could be paid off in our Grandchildrens lifetime.
> 
> I truly think that this Country is in serious trouble and I also truly believe all of the trouble we now have started when the powers that be started trying to take God out of this Country and out of our lives.
> 
> I am ashamed to say that we (myself included) Christians have stood by and allowed this to happen instead of screaming to high heaven and telling the ACLU, and any other "politically correct" group or organiztion to go straight to Hell.
> 
> We as Christians should have been hitting the streets in mass and proclaiming our beliefs, calling our representatives and telling them that if they want to continue in their jobs they had better get religion very quickly and stand up for the beliefs that our forefathers founded this Country on.
> 
> Forgive my rant, I am just Damn tired of looking for a light at the end of the tunnel and seeing nothing but a dim candle glow.


I would like to chime in, and give my 2 cents. There have been some good points made, and some keen observations given. On one point though, i don't feel we are slowly losing our rights, I feel they are already gone.
With the passage some time ago of the patriot act, and now the NDAA laws, we have been sold down the river for some time now.
Some other opinions i would like to toss into the mix. We have all been deceived into believing that our votes make a difference in the big elections. If we vote for either of the establisment candidates from either party, there is no real difference between them. The elites make donations to both party candidates, and both parties are run by the corporate big dogs. There is only one party in DC, it's the Republicrats.
The recent passage of the NDAA law should be evidence enouigh. The vote of passage by 92-7 should have alarm bells going off. Since when does the Senate pass anything by that margin, with virtually no debate whatsoever? That tells me they know what's coming, and are getting the laws set up to put anyone away they choose.
Wake up people. The ways of our past are over. Things will never be the same as they have been. No ammount of saving, cutting , trimming, or anything is going to save our economy from collapse. We have crossed the point of no return. Why do you think we were recently told by bernanke that he would continue QE till infinity? There is nothing else they can do. It's over, fini, Hasta la vista, finito, whatever. As a nation, we are a dead man walking. The evidence is all there. just look at it.
Whatever your're going to do, do it quick. You'll notice the red flags come with quicker intervals, and the happy news from the lame stream media is in overdrive. If the economy was in such great shape as the government says, they wouldn't have to keep telling people--the people would know it. Whatever "they" tell you, believe the opposite, and you'll know the truth. The breakdown we have all been prepping for is coming, make no mistake. It will happen when the elites want it too. Good luck to us all.


----------



## Davarm

greaseman, my fear is that your right, my desire is that your wrong.

Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.


----------



## greaseman

*shtf*



Davarm said:


> greaseman, my fear is that your right, my desire is that your wrong.
> 
> Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.


 make no mistake, I absolutely hope I'm wrong about what I'm saying. But with each passing day, there can be no doubt about what awaits our nation. I still shake my head in disbelief, but the facts are staring us in the face. Anyone who doesn't believe we have fundamentally entered into a new era of a fascist type government, where the corporations, and the banks are running the show, is a fool, plain and simple. Just look at the evidence, and forget about all politics. Politics is a distraction. When you own both parties, what you call either is a moot point.
When we hit the bottom, and start the trek upward, many scenerios are possible. Just keep prepping, as it is the only defense you have to the possible outcomes. good luck.


----------



## SierraM37

My prediction, which I've felt for about a year now, is that everything is being setup by those in power to cause civil disobedience (OWS-SEIU etc...) to such an extent that they simply cancel the election and declare Marshall law. Hope I'm wrong of course, but that would be an indicator. We will know soon enough.

Please also take notice of the barter agreements being established between
Iran and India
Iran and china
China and russia

Those who have espoused our collapse if the dollar DXY falls below 70...this is the whole point of what above mentioned countries intend. To end the use of the dollar as the reserve currency of the world. When that happens, game over.

If you believe it's a slow motion downward spiral, there is much to that. A global economy means a global standard of living, for which this country has Been living high on the hog since the dollar displaced the pound as the reserve du jour. Our standard will necessarily decline as other nations rise until an equilibrium is reached, which is what is slowly happening now with the erosion of our mfg. base and industry. The dollar losing reserve status will exacerbate the decline. 

Keep the discussion going. Eventually we will be back to very localized agrarian communities and the liberal enviro wackos will have their wish of forced population control. That was a little cynical but you can see it.


----------



## SierraM37

*Professional Investors are making DD reccomendations now*

http://money.msn.com/stock-broker-guided/25-investments-for-doomsday-marketwatch.aspx

Thought I'd share.


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## partdeux

My dates have not changed at all, and in fact I'm in greater belief they are correct.

My take, the govt is doing everything possible to prevent the collapse and literally grasping at straws by throwing money at the problem. If Obama loses the election, I suspect we'll see rioting in the streets, and a possible coup attempt. If he wins, we will have absolute and military enforced martial law.

As part of my MBA, I included international studies, and well as global macro economic studies. I consider myself reasonably intelligent with reasonably well developed cognitive abilities. I hope to God I'm wrong, but I do not see a solution to the problem, and in fact, think the problem is getting worse. IDK


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## UncleJoe

partdeux said:


> I do not see a solution to the problem, and in fact, think the problem is getting worse. IDK


I couldn't agree more. I see only two ways for the US to get out this mess.

1) Default. This would instantly plunge the financial world into chaos. I don't see it happening.

2) Inflation. Pay off debt with worthless fiat created out of thin air. Less pain for the banksters and TPTB but devastating to the average person. Being a slow motion type approach, this would be the in the best interest of the financial elite. Steal from the people a little at a time in hopes that they don't notice or at least don't revolt immediately giving them more time to prepare.


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## SixGunsRattlesnake

Watch the skies.....

Air traffic will give you a damn good warning that It has in fact hit the fan.

Everyone has their own scenario and their own definition. Could be a social fallout you are planning for or a tornado. However big or localized the 'S' is when it hits the fan is going to determine the social reaction. That's what I'm preparing for... Society's reaction to whatever gets thrown our way...cause the 'S' can only be speculated upon, I have little faith in today's society to deal with very much, so I'll be running at first sign...


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## greaseman

*SHTF*



SierraM37 said:


> My prediction, which I've felt for about a year now, is that everything is being setup by those in power to cause civil disobedience (OWS-SEIU etc...) to such an extent that they simply cancel the election and declare Marshall law. Hope I'm wrong of course, but that would be an indicator. We will know soon enough.
> 
> Please also take notice of the barter agreements being established between
> Iran and India
> Iran and china
> China and russia
> 
> Those who have espoused our collapse if the dollar DXY falls below 70...this is the whole point of what above mentioned countries intend. To end the use of the dollar as the reserve currency of the world. When that happens, game over.
> 
> If you believe it's a slow motion downward spiral, there is much to that. A global economy means a global standard of living, for which this country has Been living high on the hog since the dollar displaced the pound as the reserve du jour. Our standard will necessarily decline as other nations rise until an equilibrium is reached, which is what is slowly happening now with the erosion of our mfg. base and industry. The dollar losing reserve status will exacerbate the decline.
> 
> Keep the discussion going. Eventually we will be back to very localized agrarian communities and the liberal enviro wackos will have their wish of forced population control. That was a little cynical but you can see it.


 Wow, I think you absolutely hit the nail on the head correctly. You make some great points. I think the fact that the US dollar is losing international reserve status by the day is a very big factor in our downfall. I don't know what the final tipping point will be, but we have to be geting close. All the FED can do now is print money--QE to infinity.
And I also agree that the NWO folks are doing their best to bring Americas' standard of living down, to meet the rest of the world.
Preppers, realize this. Whatever you plan to do, do it quick. I have heard the possibility of banking problems as early as march. This whole disaster we call an economy, isn't going away. The problems just get worse and worse. And tipping point???? anytime I think


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## HoppeEL4

Sixgunsrattlesnake, I agree, the mainstream society cannot be trusted in an emergency situation, whatever it will be. Katrina was our guidepost for this. Magnify that scenario all over this nation should there be a financial fallout and we will see some terrible consequences of our disconnected, over entertained governmentally dependent society in action. This is the scenario I plan for the most.

You can plan for one thing, or another, but you cannot truly plan for every last emergency or threat. The best you can plan for is the care of your own when it gets rough and resources are limited by the natural, or man-made disaters that could come. I cannot plan which way the wind will blow if my own mountain, or Yellowstone, blows up. There are too many things that could happen, but the worst in it we have seen is the greed and panic of human-kind.

Sierra, it's mud huts they want us in....up here they have forced people in the city limits (I don't live in that, thank goodness) to buy only low flow toilets. Same city has banned plastic bags. Who knows whats next....banning toilet paper?


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## SierraM37

Look what is happening in Greece, right now. Granted their public sector got way out of control, but they essentially have two choices right now.

1. Take the EU edict to keep the banks and banking system afloat. Go to zero hedge.com and read about what this will mean. That the EU can come into Greece and force collections of taxes and sell public property (not private yet but is that step two?). This to make the banks whole. 
2. Default and suffer the short term consequences but maintain your sovereignty. This is where I would go. 

Whether its the EU or the US Gov't, they need the banking system to keep the money flowing to keep them in power and control. If the banking system collapses, or the dollar, faith in fiat currencies collapses and so does the respective society. This is the most massive ponzi scheme ever created and to keep it going, they need to borrow more and more and more. This to pay for the entitlement and social programs that keep the base from pulling a nationwide Katrina. It is indeed a very wobbly house of cards and as others have pointed out, only one cataclysmic event, or less, brings it all down. 

Do you see where this is all going? Will China force this upon the the US in the not too distant future? Or the UN? Wonder why the current admin has signed on to the UN small arms treaty? They don't want us to be independent and self reliant. Their power is derived from having society dependent and reliant. We are 50% there already.

The citizens of this country, well maybe half of us, truly believe in principles of independent self reliance and community. This is the American DNA make no doubt about it. I am not a religious person per se, but I do believe in morals and community and the ten commandments are pretty solid basics. Our moral fabric has decayed and greed has been the mantra for a number of decades now. If and when the SHTF and civil society collapses, there will be a period of weaning out the weak and reliant. Communities will form around the above mentioned principles and will survive. Communities will weed out the carpetbaggers and scumbags in their own way and barter will be the new currency. We really are only 200 or less years removed from this way of life. This of course if the S does hit the fan. 

Would make a great fiction novel and screenplay anyway.


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## Clarice

Little do we realize just how the government has taken away our rights with our blessing evidently. Some of their ideas were beneficial but only that we allowed them to get their foot in the door, so to speak, to levey even more of their rules and regulations on us. Greece is a sad state of affairs, but will that not be our country in a few months or years? When greed enters common sense leaves. 
We as a nation have always managed to pull ourselves up by our boot straps, but we have a complete generation who has no idea what that saying means.


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## SierraM37

*What Indictors on Timing?*

So we have had one contributor mention using the DXY as a benchmark of a potential impending collapse point. Let's see if we can't compile a list of worthy benchmarks and try to ascertain at what level they potentially trigger trouble. If we have 5 indicators and 3 of 5 are at trigger points, well then maybe that says something.

Here's what I've got as potentials and they are all economic:

TT=Trigger Target

DXY Dollar Index TT= 70 (http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/index/DXY)

BDI Baltic Dry Index - Still researching this one
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-m-lW2xq3nUQ/TzTNv5rT5EI/AAAAAAAAOO0/_gDTJhAM2q4/s1600/%24BDI+Daily.png

Petroleum Distillates and Gasoline Usage in Barrels per Day
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GsvKWz8en...00/wallace+petroleum+usage+1991+-+Present.png

I have no TT on the last two but these are indicators that all is not well here and over there....


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## greaseman

*SHTF*



SierraM37 said:


> So we have had one contributor mention using the DXY as a benchmark of a potential impending collapse point. Let's see if we can't compile a list of worthy benchmarks and try to ascertain at what level they potentially trigger trouble. If we have 5 indicators and 3 of 5 are at trigger points, well then maybe that says something.
> 
> Here's what I've got as potentials and they are all economic:
> 
> TT=Trigger Target
> 
> DXY Dollar Index TT= 70 (http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/index/DXY)
> 
> BDI Baltic Dry Index - Still researching this one
> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-m-lW2xq3nUQ/TzTNv5rT5EI/AAAAAAAAOO0/_gDTJhAM2q4/s1600/%24BDI+Daily.png
> 
> Petroleum Distillates and Gasoline Usage in Barrels per Day
> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GsvKWz8en...00/wallace+petroleum+usage+1991+-+Present.png
> 
> I have no TT on the last two but these are indicators that all is not well here and over there....


 the Baltic dry index is a key indicator. I have read news stories covering this index, and some leasing companies are paying shippers to lease their boats just to get then moving. it's less expensive to pay someone to use your ship, thqn it is to sit and wait. I have also seen pictures of hundreds of ships off the Asian coasts, just sitting there, because they have nothing to transport.
Folks, does this sound like a economic recovery??? If nothing ships, this will have a chain reaction effect sooner or later on our economy as a whole. But never fear, I watched a few minutes of several lame stream media news shows(that's all I could take), and they assured me everything was fine. Just keep buying stocks, and all would be fine. These psycopaths are amazing. An asteroid could hit the earth, destroying half the planet, and they would say just keep buying stocks, and all will be fine. it's truly sickening.
Keep prepping, and good luck.


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## mojo4

When the russians airborne drop in calumet colorado its time to bug out. WOLVERINES!!


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## dragon5126

the S hits the F at different points for everyone. And this is something most preppers dont get through their skulls. It isnt TEOTWAWKI, it when you are against the wall and have to put to use what you have been building up and studying and planning. It's when both you and the spouse are unemployed and there is no income for food, so yoy break into the MREs to feed the kids and start using those esoteric skill sets to make cash for the house payments and doctorbills because lil mamma is eight and a half months along. Hell it naynot even be a real Disaster, just something that makes you make a major change in your way of life, like ripping down the ramshackle garage to make room to plant food crops... It might be when a car engine spins a bearing and you dont have the money to fix it, or a drunk drives through your family room. or God forbid, there is a death in the family... Rarely will it be something that actually changes the world that we live in, but it will change our life, atleast for a short period of time.


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## bubbaphx2

I think we are at a tipping point or close to it. There is so many things that could happen that could push us off the cliff. for example, Isreal attacks Iran, Iran gets a nuke and shuts down the straight, European economy gets worse, China stops buying bonds, Russia gets a new President back (Putin) and he starts turning Russia into the military state it once was. or we get a lame duck president that doesn't care about re-election and makes radical regulatory changes that affect the country for the worse. I'm just starting to get prepared. But I live in a decent place to start and already grow a good garden every year and I'm able to protect it pretty well. could always be better and definitely need to do more.


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## BillM

*Sigma Six*

The masses depend compleatly on Sigma Six.

Sigma Six is the Japanese computerized method of restocking only as necisary.

When you buy that can of beans and it goes through checkout, it is automaticlly reordered and shipped from California to NY the very next day.

Three days later it is sitting on the shelf at the local Walmart once again.

Sigma Six has done away with any need to carry an invatory beyond what is immediatly available on the shelf.

Joe and Jane Sixpack have also adjusted to Sigma Six and also have an invatory of essentials three days deep.

Anything that stops interstate commerce, (Trucks running from one end of the country to the other for a week will trigger TSHTF.

This could be financial, logistical,manmade or a natural disaster.

It realy dosen't matter what starts the food shortage and the resulting riots, the result will be the same.


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## TeufelHunden

An interesting article...

http://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/04.09/pandemonium.html

I think it's going to be time to bug-out when one of the following happens...

1. The economy collapses. You think they rioted during the L.A. riots just wait til they shut off welfare! Cities will BURN...
2. There is a major "attack" on us soil that results in the institution of martial law. 
3. Food prices go through the roof.
4. Gas prices go through the roof. 
5. The power grid fails. I used to work at a power plant where I was told by the CEO of the company that if 3 low level plants in my area were taken out the whole NE power grid would go down. It's much easier than you'd think.
5. Police Forces turn into military units. This is already happening. Police forces around the country are cross-training with military personnel. I see this myself as I work for a prison system who has a security response system that can easily be adapted for military use and is designed to be used as such in the event of any civil unrest. 
6. The "elite" are getting prepared while the "sheeple" are kept int he dark. Already doing it.
7. If civil unrest gets bad enough in the US the UN will send in it's "Peace Keeping" force just like they do with every other country. The other countries would LOVE to get the chance to "invade" the US under such pretenses.


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## BillM

*The diffrence*



dragon5126 said:


> the S hits the F at different points for everyone. And this is something most preppers dont get through their skulls. It isnt TEOTWAWKI, it when you are against the wall and have to put to use what you have been building up and studying and planning. It's when both you and the spouse are unemployed and there is no income for food, so yoy break into the MREs to feed the kids and start using those esoteric skill sets to make cash for the house payments and doctorbills because lil mamma is eight and a half months along. Hell it naynot even be a real Disaster, just something that makes you make a major change in your way of life, like ripping down the ramshackle garage to make room to plant food crops... It might be when a car engine spins a bearing and you dont have the money to fix it, or a drunk drives through your family room. or God forbid, there is a death in the family... Rarely will it be something that actually changes the world that we live in, but it will change our life, atleast for a short period of time.


The diffrence between a recession and a depression:

When you are out of work and the car is repossessed, the bills are all due and you get a forclosure notice, thats a "recession".

When I am out of work and my car is repossessed, the bills are all due and I get a froclosure notice, thats a "depression"!


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## Hooch

I too think it's happening already, been a slow decline by all that has already been mentioned. 
New: Last monday a bill was passed to essentially make protesting illegal

the powers that be are making sure they have us by the &*@! ...
I was reading yesterday the exectutive orders that are in existence if martial law is enacted..so even with preps one might should have ideas to hide stuff..they can take basically everything and even relocate whole towns ( fema camps ?) 
anyways...I've kicked up my preps lately for sure..
In late march is when greece is due to pay up on money owed...even with bailout funds its not nuff...seems that might be a good time for distraction ie: war with Iran ? or right before the admin creates some sorta "disaster" to win the mainstream american will to go to war? who knows what they will really do and then we got all the natural stuff in between like tornados lately..so keep preppin folks n good luck


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## ContinualHarvest

BillM said:


> The masses depend compleatly on Sigma Six.
> 
> Sigma Six is the Japanese computerized method of restocking only as necisary.
> 
> When you buy that can of beans and it goes through checkout, it is automaticlly reordered and shipped from California to NY the very next day.
> 
> Three days later it is sitting on the shelf at the local Walmart once again.
> 
> Sigma Six has done away with any need to carry an invatory beyond what is immediatly available on the shelf.
> 
> Joe and Jane Sixpack have also adjusted to Sigma Six and also have an invatory of essentials three days deep.
> 
> Anything that stops interstate commerce, (Trucks running from one end of the country to the other for a week will trigger TSHTF.
> 
> This could be financial, logistical,manmade or a natural disaster.
> 
> It realy dosen't matter what starts the food shortage and the resulting riots, the result will be the same.


That's all part of the "Just In Time" method for retailers. It depends on cheap fuel and transport. I have a feeling that system needs to change before gas gets to $5.00 per gallon.


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## ContinualHarvest

greaseman said:


> You are correct. But the trucks not rolling will be just one of the many indicators of a maze of problems. I predict that trucks won't roll without a military esscort. Many people, who can't get any food at the local grocery store, because the ATM's have no cash, cause the banks are closed, will be on the rampage. Just remember human nature. it wins out every time.
> I prefer to be at home, armed, and working with my neighbors, guarding the neighborhood from the hungry masses who will, by necessity, start pillaging for food. It's just a natural course of events, all brought on by a collapse that has been planned for a long time.
> My policy to help me decide what to do---Anything the government tells you--believe the opposite, and you'll know the truth. How many people believe we are in a recovery??? You get the picture. How many people believe that QE to infinity is going to fix the economy?? How many people believe we must invade, and go to war on Iran, because they are a threat to us??? The masses are waking up slowly, and the elites can't have this. So, get ready for a collapse soon. We will have a major bad event, whether false flag or otherwise, very soon. The wheels are coming off the wagon, and one show is abnout to end, and the next performance begin. Have a great day. keeep preppin.


It's only a matter of time before you see the millionaires hiring private armies to protect their gated compounds. The hungry masses will be tearing down their golden gates and ivory towers.


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## LincTex

ContinualHarvest said:


> It's only a matter of time before you see the millionaires hiring private armies to protect their gated compounds.


I saw these in Russia. 
If you have any money, you also have 14' high brick walls and guards at the gate.


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## allyn211

I have a 13-year-old son with autism. We take Medicaid in order to help pay for our son's speech therapy. My husband and I are married (were married long before our son was born) and we are both legal citizens, as is our son.

It irks me to no end when I hear of people cheating the system. The people who do that take away funds from those who need it, like my son and others like him.



HoppeEL4 said:


> Meerkat, this subject is exactly what made me more proactive as I am now. I lived in an area where those here illegally were raping the system, and I witnessed it daily, even had one American born mother (married to an illegal alien) who bragged how she and the others in that area would lie to the state to get all sorts of benefits, saying the childrens father left them.......you can see where that was going.
> 
> I became so enraged one Christmas, us struggling as badly as we had been, and seeing these people roll into the complex above us, in their SUV's and trucks, unloading bags from several non-profits (bags were marked) with gifts for their kids, you're only supposed to sign up for one. Then they would haul in a back-end load from Walmart as well, loads of groceries....(I would witness their shopping at our local discount store with state food card, state cash on cards and WIC, while we pinched pennies and put things back).
> 
> I knew then that this was going to be one of the things that would pull this nation down, and knew preparing was our best bet, especially moving away from town. I also witnessed how these same people reacted to anything they deemed an "injustice" and know when things get bad, they will storm state offices, maybe some looting and/or break-ins of homes. They won't be the only ones though, Hurricane Katrina showed that even some of our own citizenry is capable of behavior we would normally attribute to angry masses in third world nations.
> 
> It is very hard to see people with no loyalty to this nation, and often times here illegally, prosper while Americans are living out of their vehicles, sometimes dumpster diving, and out of work. We can only hope that the tough times we all suspect and foresee ahead will purge our nation of aliens who only came here to financially benefit from our losses, then we can hope to rebuild things the way they needed to be all along, and get back to making America, and Canada the greatest nation(s), as they had been before.
> 
> You can bet you-know-what will hit the fan, people here in the US are getting fed-up, things are getting more rough, I have siblings (in their 50's) who have been out of work for over one year, and no prospects in sight, people with college loans unable to find any work to pay those loans, people losing homes, the list feels endless. People out there are noticibly more aggressive in their behavior (driving, in store lines and such) and I think it is due to the times.


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## mojo4

Well the chinese will probly stop buying our worthless bonds sometime this year. Only an idiot would buy into our massive debt......there's not a snowballs chance in hell we could ever repay what we owe!! What happens when uncle sams plutonium visa gets rejected??? Everyone is afraid the military will stamp down.....but they are very conservative also and I'm sure they would also be like us....scared and wanting to take care of their families!! What happens when the paychecks bounce for police/military?? Do you wanna risk your butt for free???


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## HoppeEL4

allyn211, I agree. One time long ago, when my husband was not making much, and our kids were young, we sought out help for our electric bill, grudgingly (I hated doing it). In the office, where funds were limited, I overheard two social workers, one was asking how to get this family through the system although they did not qualify financially!!!!! Then the other told her to ask them if there were others in their households without Social Security numbers, she said "usually there is" (who does not have them? Illegal aliens, thats who...) and told her to put them down as part of the household so the application would pass thru....Now with no Social, and not here legally, there would have been no way to verify if those others she was suggesting to add had income or not, they could have been grossly over income for the help, and still gotten in while people who really did not have the needed income and were citizens, were passed over for these applicants!!!! Social workers helping along people who are not even taxpaying citizens to get taxpayer help.

This was my last time in a place like that, I was so enraged, I felt terrible myself, and thought of how at least one deserving family would not be helped because of these social workers and this illegal household.

This is the kind of thing that has been eroding at our system and our frayed collective nerves..You see it all around you, people driving off in nearly brand new vehicles, having just used federal/state funds to purchase their groceries..

The only thing that is a consolation in this is knowing those of us who have decided to prep and think ahead, will continue to survive and live well during a crisis, and those who would not do for themselves, will not.


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## UncleJoe

*Here is another opinion as to when does TSHTF. It's a 17 minute video with Karl Denninger from The Market-Ticker*


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## fedorthedog

ContinualHarvest said:


> It's only a matter of time before you see the millionaires hiring private armies to protect their gated compounds. The hungry masses will be tearing down their golden gates and ivory towers.


From the perspective of the armed unfed guard, what does millionaire taste like.

When one is loyal to money they only remain so if money has value, and they are the armed ones.


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## Katurner55

Can someone answer what I would think is a simple question? What is it that back's up the dollar? When will anyone be able to tell when the money become no good. I see how much we as a country are in debt and how high prices are getting. But when will be the Tipping Point. How will I as a homemaker mother "see" when this will happen?


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## HoppeEL4

That is a good question. Used to be that gold and silver once backed up our dollar, but no more, really now nothing does in the way it should. The way I see it is our dollar is only backed up by how much we all spend together, that vicious consumerist circle we have been put in since the feds took us off the gold standard. Since the economy is down, so is the dollar. Also our debt (really it is the feds debt they have encumbered us all to when we did not want it) also has caused our dollar to be worth less.

How will we know? Well, as a homemaker, start keeping track of the prices you see in the stores. If you see a continual price increase on items you need, like flour, sugar, corn based products, milk, oils, meats....and no seasonal drops, in my own opinion thats when you know it is an issue. However, I have already been seeing this, though I think the whole process is going to be somewhat gradual, so it is happening right now, but just not in the way people experienced it in 1929. Gov't controls prices so much now that we're really not seeing the real problem since they can essentially hide it from the public.


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## Immolatus

Katurner: Hey! Im up off 270!

The answer to what is backing the dollar is faith, nothing else. Since we got off the gold standard, thats all it is. Faith that the person taking your money for goods and services values it the same way you do, and faith that the people running the printing presses dont print it into worthlessness.
I think the 'conventional wisdom' says that the Euro will fail first, and then it wouldnt be too much longer after that that the dollar fails.
There are a lot of other things that could bring about the dollar collapse:
A swift overthrow of the house of Saud (Saudi Arabia).
China and/or Russia (but more so China) actually ceasing to buy Tbills, which they are both currently reducing.
Its all really that fragile.
But all it would really take is for the people to say "I will not accept your worthless piece of paper in return for my goods"


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## Viking

Probably a big indicator will be the dissolution of the US$ as a world trade currency. The petro dollars that have been used are now being circumvented with China making deals around the world to use other more liquid currencies including gold in trade for oil. Also the derivatives amounting to hundreds of trillions of dollars will bring about global indebtedness. Watch the new world order group claim whole countries as theirs in payment for debts totally out of countries ability to pay back. Greece is basically in that situation along with other PIIGS nations plus some newly added ones.


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## BillM

The sole thing that has backed up the dollar as the world currency for the last 15 years is our ability and willingness to act as the world policeman. We have been a military for sale to the Saudis and that is about over now.


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## Halyna

I guess it all depends. It depends on the type of crisis, we all know SOMETHING is going to happen but we don't know WHAT is going to happen.
What I learned is: what is likely to happen in your location. Where I am I don't have to worry about droughts, tornadoes, hurricanes or tsunamis. but i do worry about economic collapse, civil unrest, or nuclear or war atrocities.
Each of us need to assess our location, what is likely to occur and watch out for those clues.
But a true prepper is always ready. 

Then too I always have fox news on during the day, the police scanner in my neighborhood, and email alerts from several sources. Any "clue" I act on, e.g. When they said gas was going up, I went and got all I could. Peanut butter, wheat, chocolate, cornmeal went up, so I stocked up.

One alert NOW is get all the guns, ammo, etc you can. Don't forget the mace, taser, etc too.

If you are always alert you can't go wrong. In ANY case, you will still be better than most.


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## BillM

Inflation is quickly eating up the purchasing power of the U S dollar. It will eventually go into hyperinflation wherein the price of items like food will double every two weeks until the dollar will purchase nothing.

This will likely be triggered without warning one monday morning when the Federal Reserve offers U S Bonds for sale on the world market and no other country buys them.


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## md1911

BillM said:


> Inflation is quickly eating up the purchasing power of the U S dollar. It will eventually go into hyperinflation wherein the price of items like food will double every two weeks until the dollar will purchase nothing.
> 
> This will likely be triggered without warning one monday morning when the Federal Reserve offers U S Bonds for sale on the world market and no other country buys them.


Inflation is allready here. I know it will get worse but I went to walmart thisevening after work picked up a few things I needed. Last month the same items cost me $22.75 I checked the receipt. This month it cost $29.54. That's $6.79 more in one month. Same items same store.


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## lefty

and it will get worse


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## partdeux

BillM said:


> This will likely be triggered without warning one monday morning when the Federal Reserve offers U S Bonds for sale on the world market and no other country buys them.


One correction, the US Treasury sells US Bonds. Federal Reserve is a PRIVATE corporation, owned by the big banks.

Bill, I would have agreed with you. But, what is happening is the central banks are buying Treasury notes, using our money as we buy their T-Bills. Also, with Quantum Easing, the federal reserve aka big banks, accept the IO of the T-Bill on their own balance sheet, which is an instant devaluation of the currency. That is the partial reason for why we are seeing an increase in oil. What we are not seeing is the spiraling out of control food prices that are being seen overseas... mostly because we still grow a lot of the food here.


----------



## BillM

*The rate*



md1911 said:


> Inflation is allready here. I know it will get worse but I went to walmart thisevening after work picked up a few things I needed. Last month the same items cost me $22.75 I checked the receipt. This month it cost $29.54. That's $6.79 more in one month. Same items same store.


The figures you are giving equal a 30 % inflation in one month. You must have made a purchase that deviated from the previous shopping list .


----------



## MsSage

BillM said:


> Inflation is quickly eating up the purchasing power of the U S dollar. It will eventually go into hyperinflation wherein the price of items like food will double every two weeks until the dollar will purchase nothing.
> 
> This will likely be triggered without warning one monday morning when the Federal Reserve offers U S Bonds for sale on the world market and no other country buys them.


 I went shopping last week and jiffy corn muffin mix was .79 a box 2 weeks before it was .49. I do believe we are nearing hyperinflation....Yes I know it is only one item but it was my kick to know I am no where near ready and its coming fast.


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## cabinetman

Hello, all. First post here. Great forum.

There has been a lot of thought put into the posts on this thread, all of which have valid points. What will trigger a SHTF scenario, however, could be any one of dozens of things from a natural phenomenon, a financial meltdown overnight, a major attack here in the states generating a declaration of martial law, etc., etc. The trigger, however, is almost inconsequential but, as a trigger does it will begin a cascade of situations that will rapidly cause major disruptions. Ultimately, the day that the local banks don't open and the unexplainably ATMs don't work for more than a few hours you can pretty much rest assured that the crunch has started. There will be an immediate panic response by people to run to the store and buy up what they can with the cash they have. Everything from Twinkies to gas will be stripped clean. As a prepper, however, your response should be that you begin to consolidate your supplies, cash, ammo, etc. and prepare to defend yourself as you've planned, where you've planned. While those around you being to lose their control, you will be the ones to know you've made good plans and will put them into immediate effect. 

That's how I see things happening. We're oh so slowly headed to that day but there are only so many fingers to be put in the failing dike. One morning you'll wake up to the radio reporting of a financial collapse in Greece or Italy or Spain or all three and that it threw our markets for a loop, necessitating the banks to close or not open for that day until things get sorted out. That's when the flag should go up the pole and you put your plan into effect.

So, the real issue is not if it'll happen but when, and when it does happen, you'll know when the guy next door can't buy his morning coffee at the corner shop with his ATM because nothing will work. 

Just as an aside, I still clearly recall how all that felt when, back in October, we had a freak storm that closed everything in a wide swath many miles long and wide. ATMs were down and my neighbors acted like it was the end of the world. We had no power, no stores, no ATM or credit cards and no gas for almost 8 days. That really separated the prepped from the non-prepped especially when it got cool at night and gas was at a premium. It still gives me chills to recall that first day even knowing that this was a local event. When it becomes a national event, I'm confident that the chills will be even more pronounced.

Rome


----------



## stayingthegame

allyn211 said:


> I have a 13-year-old son with autism. We take Medicaid in order to help pay for our son's speech therapy. My husband and I are married (were married long before our son was born) and we are both legal citizens, as is our son.
> 
> It irks me to no end when I hear of people cheating the system. The people who do that take away funds from those who need it, like my son and others like him.


if you need speech or other help contact your local shriners. they helped my son with speech when no one else thought he needed help. they can help with other therapies too. if I ever win the lotto the shriners are one of only three charities I will help.


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## mojo4

Yes billm inflation is on a tear. I bought 25 lb beans for 16 bucks 4 months ago. Today it was 21.50 and the shock was palpable. Yes its like were rolling downhill and were gaining steam!


----------



## fburgprepper

Jezcruzen said:


> People.. its already hitting the fan... in slow motion so as the average person doesn't even notice. Its here. You need not wait or look for any clues. ITS HAPPENING NOW!


You are absolutely correct it is happening right before our very eyes. Most of the sheeple dont want to think it is happening. Now is the time to be doubling your efforts, prep with what extra money you may have and learn survival skills, if you have no money try and at least learn some survival skills. Most importantly.....Pray!


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## HoppeEL4

allyn211, I have to ask something about Autism, well charities that claim to be helping with it. Some people will set up this table at our local Walmart, soliciting donations for "Autism Awareness". This is all it says and they have pamphlets...do you know anything about this, or have heard of this as a supposed charity, and if you do know, is it legitimate?


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## partdeux

highly likely to not be valid charity.
http://www.charitywatch.org/

I don't donate any money in public, no matter how legitimate or how good it seems.


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## Kessler

oldvet said:


> I would have to agree with you on that it is happening now. We are slowly loosing our rights and liberties.
> 
> Think about this; Even if we get a Republican/conservative President and control of both the House and Senate, do you honestly think that they will start drastic cuts in spending?
> 
> What would be the first to go?
> Probably entitlements, then watch all of the brood mares, druggies, wellfare recipients, Hud housing residents, illegals, a whole host of liberals and want something for nothings have a complete melt down and start at the very least civil disobedience. Then comes the funding for a whole host of programs that the Dems have been handing out to their cronies. The list of cuts could go on and on and include almost anyone. If that happens sit back and listen to the screaming and watch the riots begin.
> 
> Unfortunately drastic cuts in spending is the only way we as a country can ever hope to pay off the national debt, and even with those cuts I don't think it could be paid off in our Grandchildrens lifetime.
> 
> I truly think that this Country is in serious trouble and I also truly believe all of the trouble we now have started when the powers that be started trying to take God out of this Country and out of our lives.
> 
> I am ashamed to say that we (myself included) Christians have stood by and allowed this to happen instead of screaming to high heaven and telling the ACLU, and any other "politically correct" group or organiztion to go straight to Hell.
> 
> We as Christians should have been hitting the streets in mass and proclaiming our beliefs, calling our representatives and telling them that if they want to continue in their jobs they had better get religion very quickly and stand up for the beliefs that our forefathers founded this Country on.
> 
> Forgive my rant, I am just Damn tired of looking for a light at the end of the tunnel and seeing nothing but a dim candle glow.


I couldn't agree more with this post.....AMEN


----------



## partdeux

According to David Stockman, it's coming soon
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-post-emperor-naked


----------



## CAN1975

> if I ever win the lotto the shriners are one of only three charities I will help.


I know this is off topic - but I want to say that I agree with this statement a thousand times over. I was born with a birth defect and when other high profile "charities" turned my family down - the Shriners stepped in and helped me have a "normal" childhood despite my birth defect. I credit them, with my parents, for who I am today. They are good people who will give you everything under the moon to help you and ask for nothing in return.

Hijack over! :flower:


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## RobTaylor

I think this year we'll see inflation keep increasing whille the media and the masses ignore it. Next year it'll be on everyone's minds and by next summer it'll be bad enough that there will be very minor civil unrest - increases in crime etc. By 2014 I fully expect an Argentina style collapse. That's if nothing major goes down between now and then


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## kenn

Response to Dan's post. As a Vietnam Veteran, I too agree with what Dan posted. We all have a tendency to just sit back in our easy chairs and complain. We've become too much like Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh. They talk a good story but I don't see them doing anything except raking in the doe. As a Christian, I am opposed to conflict but it just happen to be a fact of life. When our "President' declares that homosexuals shoud have the right to marry, how can he claim to be a Christian? I wonder what Islam thinks about homosexuality. There are millions of Christians in this country and Dan is right, we should be out on the streets proclaiming our beliefs. But, don't be too surprised if the media has something better to do.

kenn


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## bananagoatgruff

I think we are gettin cooked like a frog. The thing to watch is derivatives, just last week jp morgan chase got burned for a couple of billion. There will be more of that. 700 trillion in outstanding derivatives around the world. It is a giant ponzi scheme that banks, multi-national companies, and governments are up to their ears in...you don't believe revelations fine, but when this thing comes unglued, there will be a world financial collapse, and the powers that be will replace it with the New World Order. Its coming...


----------



## TheLazyL

When does SHTF?

Well. Let me answer that question with another question. How do you catch wild pigs?

First you scatter feed for them.

When the pigs are accustomed to the "free" feed then you build one side of a fence and continue to feed the pigs.

When the pigs are accustomed to the one side of a fence you build a 2nd side to the fence and continue to feed the pigs.

When the pigs are accustomed to the two sides of the fence you build a 3rd side to the fence and continue to feed the pigs.

When the pigs are accustomed to the three sides of the fence you build a 4th side to the fence with a open gate and continue to feed the pigs.

When the pigs are accustomed to the four sides of the fence with open gate you continue to feed the pigs as you slowly shut the gate. Pigs don't even realized they have been caught!

When does SHTF? When the gate is slowly being closed you just missed SHTF!


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## greaseman

*SHTF*



bananagoatgruff said:


> I think we are gettin cooked like a frog. The thing to watch is derivatives, just last week jp morgan chase got burned for a couple of billion. There will be more of that. 700 trillion in outstanding derivatives around the world. It is a giant ponzi scheme that banks, multi-national companies, and governments are up to their ears in...you don't believe revelations fine, but when this thing comes unglued, there will be a world financial collapse, and the powers that be will replace it with the New World Order. Its coming...


 You are 100% correct. You can just about ignore everything else in the financial world. derivatives ARE the financial world. And why are they so important you ask?? because all the too big to fails have leveraged their asses to the max with these things, and when humpty dumpty falls, none of "O"'s men, or Bernsnakey's cohorts are going to be able to do anything. it will happen fast, and it will be vicious. it will be a period of time that you will tell your grandchildren about.
the powers that be, know this is the big kahuna, the 800lb gorilla in the room, whatever. The big boys, witness JP Morgan, are already having to deal with the beginning of the end. get ready folks, this is going to be the ride of a life.


----------



## gypsysue

LazyL, the analogy about the wild pigs is exellent.

And too true...


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## HoppeEL4

We all know those pigs love freebies too...I see them every day, in the store, cards loaded with taxpayers dollars buying them all manner of garbage food, sweetened drinks, living in their subsidized apartments and having private social services pick up their heating bills tabs for a portion of the winter. 

We have become a nation used to being coddled and "hand fed" and too often just expect when we're struggling, for government to help us out without even trying to struggle. 

Can you all imagine the panic from those mentioned above if/when the government totally collapses? It scares me to think of the chaos that will ensue...


----------



## d_saum

TheLazyL said:


> When does SHTF?
> 
> Well. Let me answer that question with another question. How do you catch wild pigs?
> 
> First you scatter feed for them.
> 
> When the pigs are accustomed to the "free" feed then you build one side of a fence and continue to feed the pigs.
> 
> When the pigs are accustomed to the one side of a fence you build a 2nd side to the fence and continue to feed the pigs.
> 
> When the pigs are accustomed to the two sides of the fence you build a 3rd side to the fence and continue to feed the pigs.
> 
> When the pigs are accustomed to the three sides of the fence you build a 4th side to the fence with a open gate and continue to feed the pigs.
> 
> When the pigs are accustomed to the four sides of the fence with open gate you continue to feed the pigs as you slowly shut the gate. Pigs don't even realized they have been caught!
> 
> When does SHTF? When the gate is slowly being closed you just missed SHTF!


Alas.. I disagree. I DO agree that the powers that be are trying to close the gate, but... the S has not hit the F yet. There is still plenty of time to avoid the splatter moment.

Also.. about the pigs... while your method would certainly work, it's slow and arduous. I've seen pens built all at once with a trap door that closes behind the pigs after they enter to get the free food, and they can't get out. I've seen over a dozen pigs and piglets get caught at once, and that method would appear to use a LOT less food. :2thumb:


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## BillS

The event that triggers SHTF has to be the collapse of the dollar. That could happen because the world dumps the dollar as the reserve currency or the derivatives market collapses or the crisis in the eurozone causes the Fed to create tens of trillions overnight or China refuses to buy any more of our debt. The collapse of the dollar causes hyperinflation in the US, bankruptcy at all levels of government, and the electrical grid going down. The collapse of the dollar will be a sudden event. Most likely something that happens virtually overnight which is why you need to get prepared and stay prepared.

This is one scenario:


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## bananagoatgruff

*when does TSHTF*

I have been trying to figure that for a long time, and there are about a million or more scenarios. There is information overload on all of them. So I had to go back to the basics for me. That would be the Bible, if your not a believer go ahead to the next post. The bible being the absolute truth, there is much warning in the Bible of Nations who become apostate. I think even the basic moral unbeliever could read the paper or watch cnn and discern that we have become quite an apostate nation. There is discipline due to nations who go down this road. I like Daniel, Jeremiah, and Ezekial. There is a lot of info in there about your nation going down, the apostasy and lawlessness of it all. Habakuk is also real good especially on the lawlessness, the rich taking advantage of the not so rich, and the legal system being perverted. A lot of good info in there. The main lesson I take is even in national disaster and loss of national sovereignty the lord has a use for the spiritually mature, that would be Daniel. Christians who have refused to learn and try to live the word no matter how prepared materially can expect no quarter from the lord. I, like many Christians, am hoping for a get out of jail card free and not have to go through the collapse of my nation, yep I am hoping for the rapture. It may be a ways off though, and the lord may have some serious discipline in store for the church in these United States for its lack of leadership and its own apostasy. Therefore, I am trying to prepare materially and spiritually. There is no crystal ball, and I don't think we can predict which event will be the alpha domino. I think we all agree that we are slowly getting cooked like a frog, and as our fiscal policies continue we will see hyper inflation.  To that note we must all be vigilant and continue to prepare the best way that we can.


----------



## HoppeEL4

bananagoatgruff....Amen, I cannot add to this and make a better statement. I too believe this is our problem and this is why we are un such trouble. How jaded have we become, senseless violence, abuse of our children, death, destruction all has become the nightly news.

Even the once morally conservative Republican base, we once used to be able to count on for leadership, has stopped standing for those moral issues and so concerned for their piece of the power pie, they have caved in on those issues. They cannot even be counted on, or trusted.

We can hardly trust teachers, principals, scout leaders, summer camp counselors and more, with our children. We cannot trust they do not have perverse intentions, can be trusted to instruct them correctly, will not abuse the power of their position to try and sway their little minds to their own belief agendas...

Lord help us all, He is our only hope in this nation now, we cannot keep trusting the leadership we have it has taken us down a dark path and we have allowed ourselves to be led to this.


----------



## JayJay

HoppeEL4 said:


> bananagoatgruff
> Lord help us all, He is our only hope in this nation now, we cannot keep trusting the leadership we have it has taken us down a dark path and we have allowed ourselves to be led to this.


I did get an antennae and only have 3 stations.
While watching each night for a few minutes (to see if there is anything worth watching) I heard the word 'penis' on a program with charlie sheen.
At that moment, I remembered why I stopped cable 3 years ago.
And we wonder what is wrong with our children??


----------



## HoppeEL4

Its true JayJay...kids hear way too much and are exposed way too much these days. I had to get after my husband at times, he would watch things that were just too violent with the kids in the room, not thinking either it would bother them or they would understand. I refused to allow my kids to watch any of the horror movies because I have always felt when you watch this stuff over and over, even with a sane mind, you can become so jaded to human suffering, and begin seeing it as entertainment. I know this is so, a friend of ours thought it was ok for her kids from little on up to watch movies like "Chuckie" and such, it was pretty constant, then her youngest was outside with my daughter, saw her fall and get hurt, and she laughed!

That was when I knew I had been doing the right thing. My kids ever saw someone get hurt, they would try to help, or were very sympathetic. Same goes for being exposed to sex on TV as often as it is in prime time now. Then our society wonders why we have more sexual predators than ever before, and many of them seem to have little inhibitions in acting this out.

I remember my mother, or older siblings, covering my ears If we heard dirty language in public, and the one covering my ears would have a look of absolute shock....if a bad word ever slipped out of our mouths, it was soap in the mouth, but usually it only happened one time per kid, then never again after that. Just think, I am only 44, and it has changed so drastically from my generation to my kids....its so appalling.


----------



## JayJay

HoppeEL4 says: Its true JayJay...kids hear way too much and are exposed way too much these days. I had to get after my husband at times, he would watch things that were just too violent with the kids in the room, not thinking either it would bother them or they would understand. I refused to allow my kids to watch any of the horror movies because I have always felt when you watch this stuff over and over, even with a sane mind, you can become so jaded to human suffering, and begin seeing it as entertainment. 

I operated a home-based day care for 4 years...movies brought in by children and okayed by parents went in their cubby...
1) my schedule for the day was waaay too full for movies
2) they get enough unsupervised tv/movies at home
3) when cooking lunch, my 'babies' were NOT watching that filth and violence....educational vids were the thing, and no complaints.

Anyone noticed..the older we get, the better we understand 'granny' and 'grandpa'??


----------



## HoppeEL4

> Anyone noticed..the older we get, the better we understand 'granny' and 'grandpa'??


Oh yeah...in fact I am one now...two, a boy 7 and girl 21 months. Neither get to watch too much TV, very little junk food...my daughter remembered, although growing up I was so terrible to her ...LOL

Kids are just so much better off without a lot of TV. Just finding something tro do other than stare blankly at the TV...We took ours our for hikes, go see new places, rock hunting, picnic at a local river and teach them to build a lean-to with fallen branches...it was always fun and our son, getting ready to get married, has his feance (raised in town, did not get out much) always out running around in the woods on their days off. I think his future kids will be outdoors all the time.


----------



## TheLazyL

VUnder said:


> ... I don't know why more people aren't keeping an older vehicle that will survive an EMP or solar flare...


Obama's "Junkers for Clunkers" program...


----------



## lefty

HoppeEL4 said:


> Oh yeah...in fact I am one now...two, a boy 7 and girl 21 months. Neither get to watch too much TV, very little junk food...my daughter remembered, although growing up I was so terrible to her ...LOL
> 
> Kids are just so much better off without a lot of TV. Just finding something tro do other than stare blankly at the TV...We took ours our for hikes, go see new places, rock hunting, picnic at a local river and teach them to build a lean-to with fallen branches...it was always fun and our son, getting ready to get married, has his feance (raised in town, did not get out much) always out running around in the woods on their days off. I think his future kids will be outdoors all the time.


LOL,, Yeah I rmember waking up one day and realizing my grandfather was right (I was raised by my grandparents) 

Thanks to the economy I am a stay at home dad, I limit/ control what TV is watched. Most of what is on is junk.


----------



## Viking

TheLazyL said:


> Obama's "Junkers for Clunkers" program...


The way I saw it being pushed I figured the PTB also wanted the masses to get into cars they could track, tax for miles driven or shut down in order to control people for their purposes. MY guess is that most new cars bought on that program have GPS systems like On Star.


----------



## BillM

*Grand daughter*



lefty said:


> LOL,, Yeah I rmember waking up one day and realizing my grandfather was right (I was raised by my grandparents)
> 
> Thanks to the economy I am a stay at home dad, I limit/ control what TV is watched. Most of what is on is junk.


I took my six year old Grand daughter to the golf course today and hooked up with another grand dad and his nine year old grand daughter.

We played golf with them until they wanted togo to the play ground and we let them play until they were filthy.

They wanted to run through the sprinklers on the practice green and we let them do that.

We bought them lunch and they wanted to eat it in the play house on the play ground and we said ok.

They wanted to hunt for golf balls and we took them to a large pond and they retrieved balls from the waters edge for an hour and a half.

During the entire day we bought them all the candy , ice cream and crap they wanted.

On the way home my grand daughter fell asleep in the truck .

When grandmaw saw how dirty she was, she freaked out and gave her a bath and put some clean cloths on her.

I'm betting she will remember this day as one of the best days.

I know I had a ball just watching !


----------



## lefty

BillM said:


> I took my six year old Grand daughter to the golf course today and hooked up with another grand dad and his nine year old grand daughter.
> 
> We played golf with them until they wanted togo to the play ground and we let them play until they were filthy.
> 
> They wanted to run through the sprinklers on the practice green and we let them do that.
> 
> We bought them lunch and they wanted to eat it in the play house on the play ground and we said ok.
> 
> They wanted to hunt for golf balls and we took them to a large pond and they retrieved balls from the waters edge for an hour and a half.
> 
> During the entire day we bought them all the candy , ice cream and crap they wanted.
> 
> On the way home my grand daughter fell asleep in the truck .
> 
> When grandmaw saw how dirty she was, she freaked out and gave her a bath and put some clean cloths on her.
> 
> I'm betting she will remember this day as one of the best days.
> 
> I know I had a ball just watching !


good for you. My Father in Law tells me all the time that grandkids are way better then your kids. All the fun non of the responsibility :0 my oldest is spending a couple weeks with them now, having the time of his life, getting spoiled rotten.


----------



## md1911

lefty said:


> good for you. My Father in Law tells me all the time that grandkids are way better then your kids. All the fun non of the responsibility :0 my oldest is spending a couple weeks with them now, having the time of his life, getting spoiled rotten.


My granddaughter is only 18 mths but I can't wait to take her fishing and shooting and all that. Oh and. Have a grandson on the way.


----------



## lefty

md1911 said:


> My granddaughter is only 18 mths but I can't wait to take her fishing and shooting and all that. Oh and. Have a grandson on the way.


congradulations.


----------



## BillM

Was there an exact time that anyone can pinpoint when the Roman Empire fell?


----------



## mojo4

The empire was over when rome was sacked by the germanic tribes. Sometime in the 700's i think.


----------



## Marcus

BillM said:


> Was there an exact time that anyone can pinpoint when the Roman Empire fell?


Eastern Empire: Generally given as the fall of Constantinople on May 29th, 1453. Others give the date as late as August 15th, 1461.

Western Empire: Deposition of Romulus Augustus on September 4th, 476. Others claim the assassination of Julius Nepos in 480.


----------



## Moby76065

Don't count out the American process so quickly folks. YES, I do believe if we win the house the Senate, and the Ovil Romney, even being a RINO, will cut spending! It is what he does and how he got rich. His entire business modle is cutting deadwood from companies and rebuilding them. Also, please don't give up that flag and the United States of America. We ARE the greatest country on Earth! We have been in the crapper before and come out stronger than ever. The important thing is to vote! And take freinds to vote with you! Make a dinner party out of it. Get some folks to meet at your house then go to the polls together. Then dinner or a BBQ. Many a young man laid down their very lives for you to cast that vote. Take America BACK! Texans don't give up in a fight and we're fightin for our way of life and our childrens future. Pull yur boot straps up, get your war face on and get back the America we need! Remember the Alamo, every last man died fightin. This ol cowboy will too!!! Never quit!!!!


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## HoppeEL4

Moby, I WANT you to be right. My only concern is we are in trouble in this nation SO deeply that I am unsure about how much he or anyone more conservative that the current administration, can change things in order to have better long term results. 

Then, it's also about how much people are willing to change their ways. I hope and pray we have enough better politicians coming up than we have had, and also people have been scared enough to stop being so lazy and think they need to be cared for by big government from cradle to grave (half our problem is too many entitlements, minus Social Secutiry, that was something people paid into for their own retirement, in good faith it was supposed to be there for them later).


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## LincTex

mojo4 said:


> The empire was over when rome was sacked by the germanic tribes. Sometime in the 700's i think.


BUT... (and this is BIG) before any of that happened, the Roman Empire was WEAKENED and *lost power* due to.... devaluation of its currency.


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## TheLazyL

Moby76065 said:


> Don't count out the American process so quickly folks. ...


When a "Christian" nation elects non Christians to public office then why should a different outcome be expected?


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## db2469

TheLazyL said:


> When a "Christian" nation elects non Christians to public office then why should a different outcome be expected?


My friends here have advised me not to reply in depth to inane posts like this one so I won't...but the temptation is so strong! You have a right to your opinion...
DB


----------



## Padre

*His point was...*



BillM said:


> Was there an exact time that anyone can pinpoint when the Roman Empire fell?


I think Bill's point is that while today we might be able to cite some scholarly but completely arbitrary date for the fall of Rome, to the average Roman, their realization that indeed the S had HTF is subjective. Sure Constantinople fell, but for the Roman's living in Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Asia Minor, etc, the empire had fallen long before that last hold out of Christianity fell to the attacking Muslim armies. Sure Rome was sacked, Emperors deposed, and assignated but just like what happens inside the belt way today, most of those events didn't really matter to those who were suffering the fall of the empire in Iberia or Bratannia, or Germania, or Gaul long before the "official" fall.

And... for those who were PREPPARED and self-sufficient, living a quite peaceful life tucked away from the rest of the world, perhaps the fall of Rome didn't happen for years after Rome had "officially" fallen.


----------



## Clarice

If you keep making the same mistakes and expecting a different outcome then there is something wrong. The best solution IMO is if they are already in office vote them out.


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## ContinualHarvest

TheLazyL said:


> When a "Christian" nation elects non Christians to public office then why should a different outcome be expected?


Secular nation. Some of the founding fathers were not Christian and wanted this nation to be tolerant of all religions no matter how fruity as long as they didn't practice things like human sacrifice.
This country is not a theocracy.
Religion in many cases is just another form of social control. Think about when the Catholic Church owned 80% of the land in Europe during the reign of the Holy Roman Empire. See what is commonly referred to as the Dark Ages. Think of all of the social controls that were in place. People had to live the way the Church told them to. The Theocrats lived in bigotry and decadence despite preaching tolerance and taking vows of poverty. Look at Scientology today and how they control people with money and power. Even take a look at some of the Protestant Christian sects. They preach that they will let people live as they choose as long as they choose to live how their church wants them to.
Reminds me of Ford saying "You can have any color you like, as long as it's black".
I'm a firm believer of separation of church and state. People should be able to believe as they want and not have religion force fed to them.
/endrant


----------



## db2469

ContinualHarvest said:


> Secular nation. Some of the founding fathers were not Christian and wanted this nation to be tolerant of all religions no matter how fruity as long as they didn't practice things like human sacrifice.
> This country is not a theocracy.
> Religion in many cases is just another form of social control. Think about when the Catholic Church owned 80% of the land in Europe during the reign of the Holy Roman Empire. See what is commonly referred to as the Dark Ages. Think of all of the social controls that were in place. People had to live the way the Church told them to. The Theocrats lived in bigotry and decadence despite preaching tolerance and taking vows of poverty. Look at Scientology today and how they control people with money and power. Even take a look at some of the Protestant Christian sects. They preach that they will let people live as they choose as long as they choose to live how their church wants them to.
> Reminds me of Ford saying "You can have any color you like, as long as it's black".
> I'm a firm believer of separation of church and state. People should be able to believe as they want and not have religion force fed to them.
> /endrant


I agree with much of what you said, but be careful, I might be the only one here that does...good luck!
DB


----------



## Emerald

ContinualHarvest said:


> Secular nation. Some of the founding fathers were not Christian and wanted this nation to be tolerant of all religions no matter how fruity as long as they didn't practice things like human sacrifice.
> This country is not a theocracy.
> Religion in many cases is just another form of social control. Think about when the Catholic Church owned 80% of the land in Europe during the reign of the Holy Roman Empire. See what is commonly referred to as the Dark Ages. Think of all of the social controls that were in place. People had to live the way the Church told them to. The Theocrats lived in bigotry and decadence despite preaching tolerance and taking vows of poverty. Look at Scientology today and how they control people with money and power. Even take a look at some of the Protestant Christian sects. They preach that they will let people live as they choose as long as they choose to live how their church wants them to.
> Reminds me of Ford saying "You can have any color you like, as long as it's black".
> I'm a firm believer of separation of church and state. People should be able to believe as they want and not have religion force fed to them.
> /endrant


Thank you.. you stated what I wanted to say but could not find the words to not offend others.. Thank you very much..:congrat:


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## valannb22

^^^
Agreed


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## ContinualHarvest

db2469 said:


> I agree with much of what you said, but be careful, I might be the only one here that does...good luck!
> DB


No intention of offending anyone. Just trying to say I'll believe what I want. You believe what you want and they believe what they want and I'll be damned if someone tries to force me to believe otherwise.
I've mentioned before here, that I like choice and I respect the rights of others to make their own choices. I just expect the same in return.


----------



## Hbarh

oldvet said:


> I would have to agree with you on that it is happening now. We are slowly loosing our rights and liberties.
> 
> Think about this; Even if we get a Republican/conservative President and control of both the House and Senate, do you honestly think that they will start drastic cuts in spending?
> 
> 
> 
> If they put the federal goverment in charge of the sahara desert in 5 years
> there would be a shortage of sand. Even if the taxes were increased 100
> fold they would first spend what they took in, then as much more as they
> could get away with.
Click to expand...


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## LincTex

Thank you all for your religious opinions.... but, 
PLEASE - all beliefs aside, let's get back on topic. 
Let's stop the discussion before it spirals. Thank you.


----------



## ContinualHarvest

Hbarh said:


> oldvet said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would have to agree with you on that it is happening now. We are slowly loosing our rights and liberties.
> 
> Think about this; Even if we get a Republican/conservative President and control of both the House and Senate, do you honestly think that they will start drastic cuts in spending?
> 
> 
> 
> If they put the federal goverment in charge of the sahara desert in 5 years
> there would be a shortage of sand. Even if the taxes were increased 100
> fold they would first spend what they took in, then as much more as they
> could get away with.
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if the government is chock full of republicans or democrats. It only matters who has sold their souls to big corporations and is sacrificing our civili liberties and environment in the name of profit. As for government spending, there is a bunch of pork barrel spending cuts that could be ended but there are a lot of worthwhile programs out there too. Why are we giving oil companies 2 trillion dollars in subsidies and special contracts? Why were we using mercenary armies like Blackwater and X in Iraq? Why is a Monsanto Exec running the USDA?
> Don't go looking for a "Conservative Republican" or "Liberal Democrat" to save us. All of the major parties are guilty of selling out the people and it's a disgrace!
> 
> The only way we will survive as a nation is to treat each other with mutual respect. Respect each other's rights. Help other people out when they need a leg up. Protect our wildlife and habitat because we only have one world.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## LincTex

ContinualHarvest said:


> It doesn't matter if the government is chock full of republicans or democrats.
> All of the major parties are guilty of selling out the people and it's a disgrace!


Correct. 
B.O. or Mitt, will make zero difference. 
So sad our country is headed this direction.


----------



## Padre

ContinualHarvest said:


> This country is not a theocracy.
> 
> Religion in many cases is just another form of social control. Think about when the Catholic Church owned 80% of the land in Europe during the reign of the Holy Roman Empire. See what is commonly referred to as the Dark Ages. Think of all of the social controls that were in place. People had to live the way the Church told them to. The Theocrats lived in bigotry and decadence despite preaching tolerance and taking vows of poverty.


I agree that this nation is not a theocracy, and that a theocracy is not desirable, but I disagree with a BIGOTED, ahistorical, anti-Christian rant. That's right anti-christian because there were no other Christians in the 5-14th centuries other than Catholics.

The so-called "dark ages" was the result of the fall of Rome due to cultural decadence and political corruption, that had started with Julius Ceasar before the birth of Christ. Sure after Theodosius mainstreamed Christianity many of the corrupt were nominally Catholic, just as many of the corrupt today, including our president, call themselves Christians, but that does not reflect upon the Church or Christian faith. When POLITCAL order failed in the 7th century the CHURCH was the only institution PREPPARED enough to maintain civilization. People flocked to the Church, or to war-lords, because these were the only two sources of stability and protection. The Church, for its part, built hospitals and schools and orphanages--AND IMPOSED Christianity, by which I suppose you mean the ten commandments, on Christians (and a few jews) whose faith required their adherance anyway. However, as many theists noted in the 18th century, and St. Thomas noted 5 centuries earlier, the 10 commandments can be rationally deduced from nature, and this natural law is binding on all those who have the use of reason. Certainly we were trying to build a society with Christ and God at the center, but since when is it immoral for Christians to do this? What social control was the Church exerting, trying to get nominal Christians to live actual Christian lives because we believe it is God's will and good for the individual? We yes we are guilty as charge of that... but aside from the explicit commands of Jesus and the Law for the most part the Church was content to let people live their lives loving and serving God as they saw fit.

Sure, as the Church gained political power because of its fortunate position in history, that is to say being prepared when society crumbled, there were some, perhaps even many instances of corruption. But these were mostly instigated by connected politically important families who wanted to use the Church to advance their political agenda and personal family wealth. Can you really blame the Church or Christianity for those who call themselves Christians but want to use the Church for secular ends? Judas Iscariot was one of these types and yet most everyone forgives Christianity for his error. Even if the Church does share some blame for failing to defend her purity your characterization of the Church ignores the reality of history.

This is not a religion thread, but I will not sit by and see my Faith attacked, without correcting misstatements and addressing bigotry. I have seen a certain protestant anti-Catholic bias before in comments, and it is just as ignorant as racism or antisemitism!


----------



## boomer

I tend to see secular as the current official state religeon. Anything else appears to be actively discriminated against with what remainds me of fundametalist zeolotry. 

Check out Mutually Assured Destruction as a defence philosophy. It mandates that people of faith in God; any God, and a belief in any sort of afterlife cannot be trusted to keep the peace. And therefore, should not hold decision making office.


----------



## LincTex

Padre said:


> This is not a religion thread, but I will not sit by and see my Faith attacked, without correcting misstatements and addressing bigotry. I have seen a certain protestant anti-Catholic bias before in comments, and it is just as ignorant as racism or antisemitism!


I agree... however, opinions must be kept very mild in public threads like this, or it will spiral out too quickly. disservice has been done by all parties/believers that have caused others to be angered.

In this case, it is just best to just say: "I politely disagree. Have a good day".


----------



## ContinualHarvest

Padre said:


> I agree that this nation is not a theocracy, and that a theocracy is not desirable, but I disagree with a BIGOTED, ahistorical, anti-Christian rant. That's right anti-christian because there were no other Christians in the 5-14th centuries other than Catholics.
> 
> The so-called "dark ages" was the result of the fall of Rome due to cultural decadence and political corruption, that had started with Julius Ceasar before the birth of Christ. Sure after Theodosius mainstreamed Christianity many of the corrupt were nominally Catholic, just as many of the corrupt today, including our president, call themselves Christians, but that does not reflect upon the Church or Christian faith. When POLITCAL order failed in the 7th century the CHURCH was the only institution PREPPARED enough to maintain civilization. People flocked to the Church, or to war-lords, because these were the only two sources of stability and protection. The Church, for its part, built hospitals and schools and orphanages--AND IMPOSED Christianity, by which I suppose you mean the ten commandments, on Christians (and a few jews) whose faith required their adherance anyway. However, as many theists noted in the 18th century, and St. Thomas noted 5 centuries earlier, the 10 commandments can be rationally deduced from nature, and this natural law is binding on all those who have the use of reason. Certainly we were trying to build a society with Christ and God at the center, but since when is it immoral for Christians to do this? What social control was the Church exerting, trying to get nominal Christians to live actual Christian lives because we believe it is God's will and good for the individual? We yes we are guilty as charge of that... but aside from the explicit commands of Jesus and the Law for the most part the Church was content to let people live their lives loving and serving God as they saw fit.
> 
> Sure, as the Church gained political power because of its fortunate position in history, that is to say being prepared when society crumbled, there were some, perhaps even many instances of corruption. But these were mostly instigated by connected politically important families who wanted to use the Church to advance their political agenda and personal family wealth. Can you really blame the Church or Christianity for those who call themselves Christians but want to use the Church for secular ends? Judas Iscariot was one of these types and yet most everyone forgives Christianity for his error. Even if the Church does share some blame for failing to defend her purity your characterization of the Church ignores the reality of history.
> 
> This is not a religion thread, but I will not sit by and see my Faith attacked, without correcting misstatements and addressing bigotry. I have seen a certain protestant anti-Catholic bias before in comments, and it is just as ignorant as racism or antisemitism!


Again I'm not attacking anyone's religion, just pointing out instances in our history where religion brought about periods of fascism. In the East there was Maoism and before that was "Divine Right to Rule". In Egypt it was the pharaohs being the incarnations of the gods. Perhaps I should have included those into the original post.


----------



## TheLazyL

TheLazyL said:


> When a "Christian" nation elects non Christians to public office then why should a different outcome be expected?


I apologize for my brief earlier post (quoted above). When you're my age, trying to type with your thumbs as you are trying to focus thru trifocal glasses on a iPhone's tiny screen, I have the tendency to be too brief.

Let's say there is an organization formed by likeminded people to prepare for catastrophic world events.

Let's call this organization: Save and Hide for Tomorrow's Freedom or S.H.T.F.

Officers are elected, by-laws passed, membership is in agreement and a web forum is created. All goes good with SHTF.

Then a new member who is also a member of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) joins. After some time this new member gains some influence with the membership, with a minority membership attending the meeting, SHTF by-laws are changed to discourage the use of animal furs for clothing.

A military Veteran thinks it would be nice if SHTF organized a colored guard together to march at parades like the V.F.W. and promote SHTF. Since most of the SHTF doesn't botter to attend the vote, this request easily gets approved.

As S.H.T.F. becomes involved with more and more secondary programs membership dues continue to rise to fund them. Membership complains about the raising "taxes" and about revolting or moving and joining TEOTWAWKI!

Before you know it you have a bunch of naked (PETA) color guard members (VFW) marching in parades all over the country. And the majority (who never bother to vote or attend membership meetings or refused to get involved) are wondering what happen to good old days and SHTF?

Little by little our U.S.A. is being change by elected Officials whose interests are different then our founding Fathers. And they are allowed to do so by the silent majority who choose not to vote, attend meetings and refused to get involved.


----------



## Padre

ContinualHarvest said:


> Again I'm not attacking anyone's religion, just pointing out instances in our history where religion brought about periods of fascism. In the East there was Maoism and before that was "Divine Right to Rule". In Egypt it was the pharaohs being the incarnations of the gods. Perhaps I should have included those into the original post.


NO! I do not agree to disagree. Opinions may be plentiful, but facts are facts...

Lot's of politician's throughout the ages have tried to use religions for various purposes, sort of like different folks use guns for different purposes, some good some bad. Just like a gun, the goodness or badness of religion is based on how true it shoots, not based on what people use it for. Not sure what definition you are using for FACISM, but according to the technical one, fascism, which is consequentialist in its morality, facism is intrinsically opposed to Christianity, and therefore its earliest manifestation Catholicism. In fact, the Fascists were historically sort of anti-Catholic.... I mean thousands of our priests were executed in the death camps... If you read up on your history a little you may find that the Catholic Church has in the history of the world been the victim of tyranny, and the champion of truth, more often than not.


----------



## ContinualHarvest

Padre said:


> NO! I do not agree to disagree. Opinions may be plentiful, but facts are facts...
> 
> Lot's of politician's throughout the ages have tried to use religions for various purposes, sort of like different folks use guns for different purposes, some good some bad. Just like a gun, the goodness or badness of religion is based on how true it shoots, not based on what people use it for. Not sure what definition you are using for FACISM, but according to the technical one, fascism, which is consequentialist in its morality, facism is intrinsically opposed to Christianity, and therefore its earliest manifestation Catholicism. In fact, the Fascists were historically sort of anti-Catholic.... I mean thousands of our priests were executed in the death camps... If you read up on your history a little you may find that the Catholic Church has in the history of the world been the victim of tyranny, and the champion of truth, more often than not.


I'm well aware of trials and tribulations of the Catholic Church and how early christians were persecuted in it's early years. I agree with you that the good or evil of religion is based on the how true to it's origins it remains. You cannot deny that any religion has stayed 100% true to it's core beliefs 100% of the time throughout history.

But I also know of the abuses of power that occurred when the word of the Church was law. For instance Pope Phillip the II ran a brothel out of the Vatican. Or our current pope Ratzinger was part of Hitler Youth. Or that the Church covered up years of molestation and abuse. Other organizations are just as guilty of doing the same things. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
I've also seen, lived and experienced the true good folk of the Catholic church as well. 
Again I respect a lot of things that the church does and disagree with a lot they do as well.

I'm not going to continue this because I don't want this turning into an argument and I think the thread will get off topic. I just want you to know that I respect your beliefs. I was just pointing out examples of religious based social control in history.


----------



## Marcus

Padre said:


> I think Bill's point is that while today we might be able to cite some scholarly but completely arbitrary date for the fall of Rome, to the average Roman, their realization that indeed the S had HTF is subjective. Sure Constantinople fell, but for the Roman's living in Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Asia Minor, etc, the empire had fallen long before that last hold out of Christianity fell to the attacking Muslim armies. Sure Rome was sacked, Emperors deposed, and assignated but just like what happens inside the belt way today, most of those events didn't really matter to those who were suffering the fall of the empire in Iberia or Bratannia, or Germania, or Gaul long before the "official" fall.
> 
> And... for those who were PREPPARED and self-sufficient, living a quite peaceful life tucked away from the rest of the world, perhaps the fall of Rome didn't happen for years after Rome had "officially" fallen.


While I understand your point, the decline of the Western Empire started a long time before its actual fall. I will point out that in those days folks lived a lot closer to the earth so self-sufficiency was almost a given for most rural residents. 
A civilization is not just a sum of its technologies and political system, it also contains a component of freedom. That was one of the weaknesses of the Roman Empire....the slavery and the rigid caste system. I opine that these weaknesses caused the fall to be much harder than would happen in the US today. The only contraindicating factor in a US fall would be the distance urban folks live away from the earth. That would cause a US fall to be harder for urban residents.


----------



## BillM

*Bingo*



LincTex said:


> BUT... (and this is BIG) before any of that happened, the Roman Empire was WEAKENED and *lost power* due to.... devaluation of its currency.


Give the man a cigar ! :2thumb:

They devalued there currency to keep gold in the country.


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## bananagoatgruff

Part of the decline was due to all of the slaves that were brought into the empire through military conquest. The slaves displaced the middle class. The citizenry went on the doll and were entertained at the amphitheaters for free. sound familiar. feed me and entertain me. this is where comedy became perfected. it was entertainment for the common man. the drama and tragedy were more sophisticated. during this time period the ruling class were so intimidated by the mob, the unemployed citizenry on the doll, that comedy and gladiators flourished. kinda like today, trashy tv, american idol, NFL. don't get me wrong i am a football player (was), but i realize the importance of an informed citizenry over fantasy football hysteria. The empire declined for 500 years, the empire split and there have been hundreds of historians who made a life long career of studying the rise and fall of rome. none the less we share many interesting similarities with their rise and fall. another interesting aspect of their decline is how they treated their military veterans. in the rise of rome, soldiers could earn citizenship through valor and service. veterans were taken care of, during the decline, they started cutting the benefits of their veterans. sound familiar. politicians want us to worship our heroes, yet now they are looking to cut their benefits at every turn. very interesting. one thing i think you can take to the bank. the rise and fall of rome took 1500 years. ours want last that long.


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## BlackParacord

bananagoatgruff said:


> One thing i think you can take to the bank. the rise and fall of rome took 1500 years. ours want last that long.


True. Most Americans have failed in our efforts to control our base instincts for greed and power, and it is costing us in a much speedier way than it did the Romans. (Well, we do tend to like our instant gratification! Lol.)

Humans in general are able to collectively lose our humanity much more quickly than we used to because of the MSM, social networking, and the like.

Stories created to inspire fear and ingratitude are piped into people's hands and homes on a daily basis.

Naturally, many of us are more likely to become discontent and ungrateful when the "latest" fashions and gadgets are paraded around by the "beautiful people" 24/7, and the normal people are made to look like incompetents...and to become complacent when we see people getting sued (or harassed, or assaulted) for trying to help another human being!

It's also easy to choose NOT to stand up and fight for a free land when disrespect for--and complacency about--the Revolutionary War, the Constitution, and freedom itself, are carefully taught in the same arenas where our patriots used to be educated.

When people give in to their baser instincts on such a mass scale, it is an invitation to chaos.

The "Bread and Circuses" aspect of Rome's fall was, I believe, a symptom of the problem rather than the problem itself. (Much as Hollywood worship, American Idol, etc. are symptoms of the growing problem in America.)

Many of us are undernourished (though we seem to have food everywhere around us!) drugged up, under-educated, and hopelessly s

It's not a trend I see reversing anytime soon. In fact, it seems to be getting worse every day. Imagine removing all the "toys" and entertainment from the hand-me-out babies of America, and then you're really talking apocalypse!

To answer the original purpose of the thread, I guess I will really know the S has HTF when


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## BlackParacord

Argh. That last post sent before I wanted it to, so it went through unfinished. But I'm sure y'all get the point! Lol. 

America is already nearly over. IMHO the S has basically already HTF. At this point, we're just waiting for "life support" (AKA modern bread and circuses) to be pulled so the dead wood can be weeded out and we can get on with the revolution. 

Guess I'm a pessimist!


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## machinist

BlackParacord,

Others agree with you that it is here now.

65 signs it is happening NOW:
http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/a...eady-happening

And, no, it is not evenly distributed, as some are quick to point out, saying that many people are doing fine. But they remind me of what one guy said about "average":

"If you have one bare foot in ice water and the other bare foot in a hot fire, ON THE AVERAGE, you are comfortable...."

That seems to describe our country at the moment. A lot of folks aren't very comfortable right now and more are headed that way every day. AS Thomas Jefferson warned us, inflation and deflation will bankrupt the country and deliver it to our bankers. This video makes a case for our present deflation (the collapse of DEBT MONEY/CREDIT) becoming a crisis, THEN, the inflationary reaction by central banks ("the Big Print") creating a world wide currency crisis, where nobody wants paper money of any kind. 





The clock is ticking, and it it about 2 minutes until midnight, IMHO. Prep now. Beat the rush.

Note that I am using the terms inflation and deflation as defined by Austrian economists, referring ONLY to the supply of money--deflation = less money supply (as in credit drying up), and inflation = more money supply (as in more credit/debt money in existence).

At present, with major 'loans' like Greek government bonds going bad, that is DEFLATIONARY. This is being countered by central bank 'printing', or money creation through loans to other banks. By these definitions, which are for analytical purposes only, don't say anything about PRICES of GOODS. Prices of goods are SYMPTOMS of money policies and supply and demand, all put together. Also, at present, deflation is winning the race between loans going bad and central bank printing, so there is LESS money in the system, and thus, people are less apt to spend.

This all makes price prediction much more difficult, and less obvious. The average person uses the term inflation to mean rising prices. We DO have rising prices at the moment. And we also have DEFLATION at the moment, that is, less available credit money. Many factors besides money supply affect prices.

For us to benefit from the prediction of the first video, we have to understand what it means in terms of prices and ultimately, VALUES of goods in a real sense. That leads me to prep by way of using fiat money to acquire REAL HARD GOODS as a sort of bottom line to what this video tells me.

RE: the 'race' between printing and credit "money" deflation.

Eventually, the central banks will be forced to "print money", big time. They don't want to because it destroys the value of the fiat money they have now. Also, when "printing" is overdone, you get a currency crisis, where people lose faith in the currency as a 'store of value', and prices rise dramatically---what most people call "inflation".

However. World economies are in terrible shape now and getting worse. This means that governments get less tax revenues and have to spend more into the economy to prevent collapse and revolt, or at least be driven from office. So, they tell lies constantly and try to prop up the economy with more spending of money they don't have.

But they have almost used up their credit line to where people are wondering if they will ever be able to pay back what they borrowed to spend. That is the crisis point, as is happening in Greece. It is a slow process, and will be dragged out to the max. At some point, more countries will be unable to borrow and look like Greece. I don't think the US has much more credit line left.

Then, government spending will be cut--one of two ways. Either they cut spending directly, "austerity", which is never popular, OR the VALUE of their spending gets cut by a currency collapse (nobody wants the dollar and prices go crazy).

That is the best I have been able to come up with anyway. I hope somebody can help me clarify the future, because my crystal ball is cloudy....


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## BillS

Marcus said:


> While I understand your point, the decline of the Western Empire started a long time before its actual fall. I will point out that in those days folks lived a lot closer to the earth so self-sufficiency was almost a given for most rural residents.
> A civilization is not just a sum of its technologies and political system, it also contains a component of freedom. That was one of the weaknesses of the Roman Empire....the slavery and the rigid caste system. I opine that these weaknesses caused the fall to be much harder than would happen in the US today. The only contraindicating factor in a US fall would be the distance urban folks live away from the earth. That would cause a US fall to be harder for urban residents.


Rome didn't have a hard fall but we will. We'll have hyperinflation, the dollar will become worthless, and millions will starve. I think 90% of Americans will die. I might be overly optimistic that 30 million Americans will still survive. The federal government will provide for key personnel and the military. A lot of preppers will probably die in the violence that follows. We live in a unique time in history where the vast majority of people are unfit to survive on their own. We're dependent on electricity and we're not suited to grow our own food without machinery.

To answer the original topic of the thread, I see it hitting the fan in the fall. The US economy continues to decline. Wall Street is crying for QE3. When that happens the world will abandon the dollar. The dollar could collapse before that. We're still on the verge of war in the middle east. Russia and China are involved. There's a good possibility that when we fight Syria or Iran that China will dump our dollars and our debt. The eurozone is crumbling. When the euro dies the Fed might pump trillions to stabilize the world's banking system. That could kill the dollar. Or the collapse of the eurozone could trigger 200 trillion dollars in derivatives that can't be paid.

ON A RELIGIOUS NOTE, I'd been praying regularly that God would give me a dream or a vision that would tell me the time of the year of the collapse. One night I got into bed. Before I even got to sleep this came into my mind:
I'm standing outside my favorite restaurant. It's been out of business for some time. The windows are dirty with windblown dust and rain has streaked the windows. There are autumn leaves swirling in the parking lot. Where I live we have our first frost around the first week of October and leaves start to fall shortly after that.


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## db2469

BillS...I just can't believe it will happen that soon(in the Fall)...In spite of all the conspiracy theories floating around the Web, I can't believe governments/bankers/anybody WANTS this to happen and will postpone this as long as possible but it could very well happen in the way and for the reasons you wrote, but not this year IMO...I still have some hope that the severe cuts we make (and have to) to the budget late this year or early next (can't remember the exact timeline) will alleviate the likelyhood of a collapse, at least for some time...
DB


----------



## TheLazyL

BillS said:


> ...ON A RELIGIOUS NOTE, I'd been praying regularly that God would give me a dream or a vision that would tell me the time of the year of the collapse.....


Mark 13:32 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.


----------



## BlueShoe

No man knows the hour and day of the _return of the Lord_. That's making a huge, huge, huge, Harold Camping assumption that the economic crash is what is prophesied in scripture indicating "The Return".

But it gives a person a clue on what we've placed as our god/idol in America. I'm not immune to that, but I recognize it. It's sorta like old time preachers describing heaven by saying "streets paved with gold and everyone gets a mansion". Sounds like the lure to send us to Hell to me, by valuing heaven in monetary terms.


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## HoppeEL4

> streets paved with gold and everyone gets a mansion


I'll take a country dirt road with a farmhouse...I like simple.


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## 101airborne

VUnder said:


> Most every vehicle on the roads today will be disabled.


 Not really. Actually a MCE, ( Mass corneal eruption) A.K.A solar flare is more likly to shut down the power grid and fry electrical items that are plugged in and not on a commercial grade surge protector. Most vehicles and things like computers and such that are protected or unplugged will usually be safe.

True an EMP ( Electro-Magnetic Pulse) would be different, But the steel bodies on most vehicles now will offer some protection. Your more likly to be safe 30 miles away from "ground zero" than one mile away. Same with a nuke attack. From what I have studied from dozens of sources only about 25%-30% of vehicles will be completely fried by an EMP. Most others can be repaired by replacing a couple of electronic modules.


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## 101airborne

Jezcruzen said:


> People.. its already hitting the fan... in slow motion so as the average person doesn't even notice. Its here. You need not wait or look for any clues. ITS HAPPENING NOW!


Couldn't agree more. It's been getting worse the last 3-4 years.


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## lefty

101airborne said:


> Couldn't agree more. It's been getting worse the last 3-4 years.


like the frog in the pot of boiling water


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## JerryMac

IF Obama is relelected, you might as well buckle up n hang on ..... it will progress a lot faster..... we cannot turn our back on Israel, and expect to come out on top, and one rouge crazy group, with the capability to send a nuke over the US, if from a container ship even, would put us in the dark like we have never seen....
I asked my stock broker, where i should be investing my money, he said, in canned goods n ammo !!!


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## BlueShoe

I'd advise anyone interested in where to place money should listen to King World News broadcast interviews. They have some of the leading investors and you'll understand for yourself what is going to happen. They don't all agree on the time, but mostly do on the results. Cash will not be king is the long and short.

Foreign policy regarding Is'l is a sore spot for me. We haven't turned our back on them. We just aren't going to go to war with their enemy in an election year, and they have actually turned their back on us when it came out that they were posing as CIA and paying a terrorist organization called Jundallah to commit acts in Afghanistan and Iran during the Bush admin. We don't allow any association with that group and they were blaming us as the nation supporting Jundallah. Do you really think we can afford another war with a country of 70 million who just had a non-aligned, but well attended meeting of support with nations from around the world regarding Israel's threats to attack them? The stuff you see from them this past month is their response to leaked documents that summarize the already prepared attacks which are planned against them. If we can get past the Oct elections in Is'l and the Nov elections here, we might avert war. At least for a while.


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## BillM

TSHTF when the banks close !


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## EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER

Nobody knows...... Thats kinda the point! If ppl knew, then they can prevent it and we wouldnt have to worry!


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## f4phantomgib

*The Tipping/Trigger Point*

Hello Everyone

I agree with Immolatus about the tipping point. The world economic powers are working together to replace the dollar as the world's reserve currency. The Tipping point will be the day they do that.

That day will start a similar series of events Argentina has experienced beginning in December of 2001. Ferfal Aguirre at The Modern Survivalist site has well documented his experiences of those years. You can read his 'Thoughts on Urban Survival' here, http://www.themodernsurvivalist.com/forums/general-discussion/thoughts-on-urban-survival This post became the foundation for his book, Surviving the Economic Collapse. That is how I think it will start.

I follow the philosophy espoused by Jack Spirko, The Survival Podcast. You prepare for a personal disaster first, then local, regional, national, and global, and keep God in your heart. That is all we can do.

Best of luck to you all.

F4PhantomGIB


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## LincTex

f4phantomgib said:


> That day will start a similar series of events Argentina has experienced beginning in December of 2001. Ferfal Aguirre at The Modern Survivalist site has well documented his experiences of those years.


Fernando (FerFAL) is pretty well known. A lot of folks have read his blog.


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## JerryMac

Why do you think they pushed so hard for the cash for clunkers deal.....something that makes ya go hmmmmm......


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