# Natural Resources



## cnsper (Sep 20, 2012)

There is a lot of talk about utilizing natural resources such as deer, elk, rabbits, birds, fish and so on....

The problem comes in when society collapses and there is no longer any restriction on how many people will keep. Here it is not as much of a problem as it will be in urban areas.

I see a lot of waste happening. I can see a single person catching 3-4 fish when they can only eat one or two at a time. I know, I know, preserve the other 2 right? Well most people will not do this or know how to do this so after a day or so the fish they did not eat will be wasted.

Same goes for all kinds of game animals they will be killing.

What I am getting at is that you need to be responsible enough to protect your resources and not over harvest them. Not only so your grandkids can eat but so you can eat.

Around urban areas, game is going to be as nervous as a cat in a room full of rocking chairs.

All you have to do is look to the past and see what happened to the buffalo alone if you think that this will not happen.


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

I agree.

I also think during SHTF we cannot rely on hunting as all the game will be hunted, perhaps into extinction in many states.


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## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

I'm thinking, you kill a deer, my fire is set up and ready for a burger!!:laugh:


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## cnsper (Sep 20, 2012)

What about the rest of the animal? Remember, the part taken from the buffalo was usually the hide and the hump meat. We have to be ready to use the entire animal.


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

cnsper said:


> All you have to do is look to the past and see what happened to the buffalo alone if you think that this will not happen.


Sorry. I couldn't resist.


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## cnsper (Sep 20, 2012)

LOL... that is only one animal for example. What about streams that USED to have salmon and/or steelhead runs in them that are no longer there?


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## Wellrounded (Sep 25, 2011)

One of the reasons I'm so glad to live where I do. Very low population and heaps of game and gatherer type foods. Locals will work their way through live stock first (except for those that already hunt and there are few of them) and other than a few very basic weeds the locals have not a clue about edible plants. The downside to this is that they will be very hungry, lol.


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

cnsper said:


> LOL... that is only one animal for example. What about streams that USED to have salmon and/or steelhead runs in them that are no longer there?


But why are they not there ...


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## jeff47041 (Jan 5, 2013)

BlueZ said:


> I agree.
> 
> I also think during SHTF we cannot rely on hunting as all the game will be hunted, perhaps into extinction in many states.


I've told this to many people that say "I'll be fine because I can hunt"

Well, I hunt too, but we are only about 35 minutes from Cincinnati, OH. 
The population of Greater Cincinnati is a little over 2 million and when they (or a portion of them) all come this way, killing everything in sight to eat it, there will be nothing left.

I think every game animal, bird, fish, rodent, livestock, along with gardens & fields will be obliterated when they come through. This is one of my biggest worries of when SHTF


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

jeff47041 said:


> I think every game animal, bird, fish, rodent, livestock, along with gardens & fields will be obliterated when they come through. This is one of my biggest worries of when SHTF


I'm sorry but I don't see it ... Number one, "most" folks (in the city) would not know what to do with a deer, beef or a garden pea.

They will loot any store/house they can come to. (but I think the critters will be safe. ~ For the most part)


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## goshengirl (Dec 18, 2010)

jeff, I'm on the other side of Cincinnati - a bit further out than you but I understand your concern. I'm hoping they all head up I-75 (no offense to our forum members in Dayton).



*Andi said:


> They will loot any store/house they can come to. (but I think the critters will be safe. ~ For the most part)


That's a really good point.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

Thats a pretty picture, a bunch of city people trapesing through the woods looking for something to shoot! Dont think the critters would have a lot to worry about, especially around here where the land owners would shoot first and ask NO questions.

I'm not trying to put down any of you who live in the city but just look at some of your neighbors and think about them trying to shoot their dinner. They would likely only be a problem for a short while before they gave up or died off.

For me, I'm not counting on any hunting, fishing or foraging for survival, anything "harvested" from the wild would just be icing on the cake.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

I think hunting in many places would be viable for awhile. Length of time would depend on population of both people and animals. Fairly quickly I think you would see "professional" hunters providing meat for trade. I think fishing might be viable for a little longer length of time.


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## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

Grandad said that during the Depression of the 1930's, game got REALLY scarce. He did not say how long it took to get that way, but with today's greater population (almost 3 times as many), I'd say it would not take long. Even if only a few are capable of hunting, they will either eat, waste, or trade what they can get, so they will hunt every critter they can find. 

Some game is HARD to find, so some will survive. By the time I was growing up in the early 1950's they were back again. Rabbits, quail, squirrels, and deer were pests. 

I know about unskilled hunters. We lived in a valley rich with deer for many years and saw all manner of fools and worse out hunting. Had one guy try to run me out of MY OWN WOODS, but that didn't end well for him. Another one, on his first hunting trip, kept his single barrel shotgun cocked from the time he went into the woods until he was on the way home in the truck. Truck hit a bump and the gun went off, blowing a hole in the floorboard. Nobody hurt, but his hearing was damaged. 

Even with all the idiots, even a blind pig finds an acorn now and then, so they will kill a lot of game. I'd say it is better not to plan on game being a mainstay in your diet. There are WAAAY too many people for that. As a poor kid, I ate a lot more game than I wanted to, so I'm planning on having other things to eat.


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## Roebears (Feb 17, 2013)

I think you are right, wild game won't last long. Also if you grow a garden you better have some way of securing it, or they will steal you blind.


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## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

Yep, lots of thieves around now. My dog has to eat SOMETHING!


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

don't forget the waste of injured but not harvested game animals. Find lots of gut shot carcasses around here after the St louis hunters have come through. YOu know the guys who shoot and shoot and shoot all day but if the animal doesn't just fall over where it was standing they keep going cussing their gun which was propbably only bore sighted to begin with. Makes me sick now all the waste and deer are thick enough now to be pests. Will really sicken me when they are a rescource to be carefully gaurded. 

Grandad used to talk about the deer and turkey being transplanted into the ozarks when he was a young man them having been hunted to local extinction during the depression. Squirrels were always around but even they got scarce and rabbits seemed to disappear but did re populate naturally eventually. Talks about how happy folks were to get the animals back that people who wouldn't talk to authorites about murders would turn in a poacher. 

And I doubt it will be limited to wild game live stock would have to be carefully husbanded and kept hidden as any that can be seen will be shot and either killed or just wounded to crawl off and die and waste and those that are killed will have whatever can be cut off quickly taken and the rest left to rot. Guess I have very little faith in my fellow man especially my fellows from the city and urban areas.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

People killed the buffalo for sport or for hides or just for the tongue. Also, the US army fighting the Indians in Kansas decided that the only way to keep the Indians on the reservation and to keep them from raiding the settlers every spring was to kill off the buffalo.

I don't think people will be hunting like it's 1880 any time soon. 

And yes, in cities every bird, rabbit, and small animal will be hunted for food. There will be a lot of people fishing in whatever streams and lakes are nearby. I expect people to cut down every tree to burn for heat and cooking too. The most immediate problem will be finding water to drink though. A lot of people will get sick on bad water. Having diarrhea when you're dehydrated will kill you.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Many think that only the "whites" killed the buffalo. But when the Indians found out they could trade the buffalo "parts" for money they became market hunters just like the "whites".


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

Most of the population got no idear what so ever bout huntin an fishin. Yeah, they might try, chances be the animal gonna be safe cause they can't hit a barn ifin the was in it. 

Same fer fishin, most of em only seen it on tv. Plus, most em ain't gonna know where ta go. Back in the depression, there was more folk livin on farms, they hunted, fished an raised there own. Taday, a family farm be nearly a thin a the past. All be corporate farms. 

The folk what know how ta hunt an fish gonna have a better time a gettin extra food fer the table. I ain't gonna rely on wildlife fer my food, but that don't mean I ain't gonna be out there harvestin it niether. The creeks an pounds we got round us be loaded with edible food that I'd say 99.9% a the folk in the area got no idear bout. Crawfish, turtle, cattail an so forth. It'll never cross there minds that they can eat that stuff. The real hunters an fishin folk already know ya don't take more en ya can use. There be some slobs out there, but that be in everthin. How many folks know how ta set up snare traps? Not many an yet that be a great way ta put food on the table. It be workin while yer out findin other resources. Same a trot line er bottle lines. Most folk got no clue.

I thin yall see most city folk scroungin fer prepared foods cause that be all they know. Sadly, many will starve cause a the fact they got no skills no more. Wan't a example? Go ta the camp ground some time an watch the city slickers simply try an park there rig. Then watch em try an start a fire. Watch what there cookin. It always be good fer a few chuckles!

The biggest thin bout natural resources be known where they be an how ta use em. That'll leave allotta folks out. Look at them hurricanes, Katrina an Sandy. When ya seen folks wanderin round the ruins complainin they had no food er heat. Yet layin all round em was useable materials what could easily have been put ta use. Problem, they got no idear how ta use the available resources. It just never cross's there minds cause they don't live er thin thata way.


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

OldCootHillbilly said:


> Taday, a family farm be nearly a thin a the past. All be corporate farms.


That couldn't be farther from the truth. But it's besides the point here.

All the talk about the depression here is different than the stories my Gpa talks aboot. Seems it was a bit of a fun time on the farm here. His favorite uncle and another cousin couldn't find any work so they lived on the farm for room and board. Many hands made light work and plenty of free time for making and consuming hooch.


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## OHprepper (Feb 21, 2012)

to back up packer backer...

http://www.agweek.com/event/article/id/71528/publisher_ID/22/

"According to the study, small family farms - which USDA defines as farms with annual sales of $250,000 or less - comprised 88 percent of all U.S. farms in 2007. Small family farms also held about 64 percent of all farm assets, including 63 percent of our nation's farmland."


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## OHprepper (Feb 21, 2012)

however, from the same article...

"The study found that large-scale family farms — those with annual sales of $250,000 or more — plus nonfamily farms, comprised 12 percent of U.S. farms in 2007, but accounted for 84 percent of the value of U.S. agricultural production."

which leads me to believe that while their are a lot of small family farms.. they dont feed very many people. the large agro-business farms feed almost everyone...or at least give a greater dollar amount to exports


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## Trinka (Feb 16, 2013)

Depending on the city.....they may not even have guns to hunt with...

some cities have banned guns.....

There will be alot of folks who just won't know what to do and by the time they figure out the Gov. isn't coming to "save" them....they won't be able to get far..

and how many will be able to do the hiking it will take to get out to the country any way....there will be some.....but not huge sums all at once....

I'm glad there is quite a distance of farm land/country side before they get to us....the only thing that gets me is we're not a big hike from the interstate, if some one is dressed/footed for walking...


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

Speaking as a Deer hunter, who has been sucessful in hunting deer, for the amount of energy expended to set up a stand provide the habitat and kill a deer, the reward is not enough to justify the effort.

If you had a good location and wanted to set snares for deer, you might be able to kill several but just hunting them would not work for the average person. They would be more likely to kill a deer by driving at high speed back and forth through the national park, hopeing they hit one with their car.

As for fishing with a rod and reel, there would be a low return for the time and effort. You are probably better off just eating the bait.

Now if you have access to a large body of water and a lot of tackle, you could set a hundred limb lines and a trot line or two and catch enough fish to get by but not just sitting on the bank with a rod & reel.

Unless you are fishing with dynomite you are probably waisting time.

If you plan on fishing or hunting to make it, better be living in someplace where you can kill large game animals like Alaska or commercially fish like the everglades and you had better know what you are doing there or you can die trying.

For a modern man to suddenly become a subsistance hunter or farmer is like an aboriginal suddenly becoming a computer programer.


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

OHprepper said:


> however, from the same article...
> 
> "The study found that large-scale family farms - those with annual sales of $250,000 or more - plus nonfamily farms, comprised 12 percent of U.S. farms in 2007, but accounted for 84 percent of the value of U.S. agricultural production."
> 
> which leads me to believe that while their are a lot of small family farms.. they dont feed very many people. the large agro-business farms feed almost everyone...or at least give a greater dollar amount to exports


Them small "family farms" round these parts be called a hobby farm. Reason bein, the people livin on em generally got a job cause they ain't makin a livin offin the farm. It be more of a hobby then a livin. Most everthin in this parts be a corporate farm an over 5000 acres. Family farms round here be bout gone. The kids sell off the land when the folks die off cause they don't wanna farm an the land be crazy in price.


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## cnsper (Sep 20, 2012)

Well that and to pay the inheritance taxes.


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

I have honestly never hunted, my brother has, but I have not, and certainly know my husband has not...we'd be better off making sure we have some livestock around. Rooster and hens, rabbits (both girls and boys) and guess if we could get away with it (depending on the circumstances we find ourselves in at the time of a collapse) maybe something bigger.

Now I have issue with considering beef. I have never butchered, I know I could with chickens and rabbits, but a cow...that's a big job has to be handled right. Some people talk about goats, but goats are so personable, I would find it hard to want to butcher them.

We have ample deer here in the Pacific Northwest, I think they outnumber humans (LOL...) There are wild turkeys around, though I have not seen any around here. Salmon run in the river right down below us, trout around. Seems using the smaller game and fish is more practical in our case, and our own small livestock.

As for wild foods to eat here, well mushrooms, but I have never gathered and don't want to die, so I plan to avoid that. Plenty of edible ferns (when they are just coming out), berries..but really just planned on growing foods we knew we were safe with.


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## Wellrounded (Sep 25, 2011)

HoppeEL4 said:


> I have honestly never hunted, my brother has, but I have not, and certainly know my husband has not...we'd be better off making sure we have some livestock around. Rooster and hens, rabbits (both girls and boys) and guess if we could get away with it (depending on the circumstances we find ourselves in at the time of a collapse) maybe something bigger.
> 
> Now I have issue with considering beef. I have never butchered, I know I could with chickens and rabbits, but a cow...that's a big job has to be handled right. Some people talk about goats, but goats are so personable, I would find it hard to want to butcher them.
> 
> ...


Butchering a beef is a big job! Last one we butchered was about 1300lb or a little heavier. Although we have a fine setup for pigs, goats and sheep this fellow was too big for our kill area. We shot him in the paddock, skinned him and butchered him on his skin. We had to bone out nearly everything because we couldn't even lift a leg, lol. We ended up with 660lbs of meat, no bones, plus fat. We let it set in the cool room (just insulated no cooling) and I spent 3 days getting it all in the freezer, then started canning it. 
Post SHTF I'm pretty sure we'd have more people here on the farm and the work would be shared, much easier to handle a quarter of beef than a whole.
We are still working on our kill area and it will handle beef when finished. 
You're right to be careful with mushrooms, if you're not sure leave them alone and be very careful if someone offers you any. Last property I owned has a type of mushroom that looked much like a horse mushroom. We put signs up warning people they would get a bad belly ache but they still climbed our fences and picked them. Pretty sure they thought we were trying to keep them all for ourselves. Even my mother wouldn't believe me, told me to shut up and listen to my elders, she ate 'em, she wasn't feeling too good for a few hours after, told me must have been something else she ate!


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

Seems a bit overly angry, packer...

Anyway, what that article doesn't address is the number of 'family' farms that are for all practical purposes controlled by transnational corporations. Farmers are contracted to produce very specific quantities of, for instance, chickens, with specific tolerances for size weight ect. 

What this amounts to is corporate control of family farms. 

I like CSA farms as a concept. My beautiful awesome SO and I are working towards being able to step away from the corporate food table...


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

That's a pretty minor segment of ag.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

CSA's are a minor segment, yes. 

From the couple of farmers I know, and several documentaries I've seen though, corporate contracted farms sure seem pretty common.


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## stanb999 (Nov 14, 2011)

FatTire said:


> CSA's are a minor segment, yes.
> 
> From the couple of farmers I know, and several documentaries I've seen though, corporate contracted farms sure seem pretty common.


CSA's might be a small portion of agriculture. But they are the profitable portion for the small land owner/farmer. Big farms make "profit" with subsidy....


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

Stan, there are many reasons I don't like corporate farms, subsidies don't top the list, but are on it...


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## goshengirl (Dec 18, 2010)

FatTire said:


> CSA's are a minor segment, yes.
> 
> From the couple of farmers I know, and several documentaries I've seen though, corporate contracted farms sure seem pretty common.


Yep, my husband's family and all the neighbors he grew up with have gone that route. It's a sensitive subject when we go for a visit... (these are family farms that have been around for generations)


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

Subsistance farming is vastly different from a large corperate farm or even a famiely farm that grows one or two crops.

Mennonites and Amish are subsistance farmers. 

They are like my wifes granddad who raised 9 children on a subsistance farm.

He knew everything that it took to sustain a famiely from how many hogs to kill per person to how much to plant to make sure there would be enough to last untill the next harvest.

He could not drive but he could work a team of mules and grow enough to feed the livestock and the number of people in the famiely.

In 1929 when the depression struck, 83 precent of the people in the USA worked on famiely farms where subsistance farming was the norm.

If that happened again people will starve. They no longer possess that wealth of knowledge.

This is 2013 and 98 precent of the U S population work outside agriculture.

If you are not actively practiceing the subsistance farming lifestyle now , don't expect to just be able to master it the first year after a disaster, when you can't afford to make a mistake.

Mistakes will kill us then.

I once asked my wifes granddad why he grew so much. He was in his eightys and he told me he could not help doing it because he was taught by his father to always grow five times what you would actually need in case there was a drought , insects or any other problem that hit the garden.

These maximums were driven deep into his brain and he could no more stop doing them than he could hold his breath.


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## PackerBacker (Dec 13, 2012)

BillM said:


> Mennonites and Amish are subsistance farmers.


Not around here. Most if not all are commercial farmers.


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