# Complete Ecoomic Melt Down



## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

Well, Fox News was reporting on the rioting in Greece and went on to say that independent economist are predicting the same in the U.S. within 2 years. Currently we, The U.S., is paying $4,000,000,000(billion) a WEEK in interest on the deficit, and by 2016 that will jump to $9,200,000,000 a week. 

Was Megan Kelly just spitting into the wind or is their something to this claim? At what point will the interest exceed the income and what will happen then? I'm afraid I know the answer to that one, thats why I am prepping.


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## lefty (Sep 29, 2011)

YOU are right it is going to get real ugly I fear. I believe it was this year that our debt now exceeds our GNP


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## SierraM37 (Nov 2, 2008)

I encourage you to frequent zerohedge.com to gain an understanding of what's really going on in the financial markets. Good focus on global, not just US. In essence, the gov'ts are propping up the banks (TARP, to big to fail) because the banks buy and disseminate gov't debt, which is what keeps the ponzi scheme alive. that's how I see it anyway. If Greece defaults vs. taking the bailout, the banks will incur losses, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Italy may follow and that's too much debt to default on. The banking system will collapse as will the ponzi scheme. Educate yourselves and prep.


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

anyone paying attention since 9/11 should have seen this coming, problem is no one but Ron Paul will talk about it. The government, the GOP candidates, the MSM will not even mention it and the melt down here will probably be soon after the election, then which ever party is in the WH will have to break the news to the millions of brain dead sheeple, we're broke, we're out of paper to print more money and no one will give us any more credit.


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## partdeux (Aug 3, 2011)

lotsoflead said:


> anyone paying attention since 9/11 should have seen this coming, problem is no one but Ron Paul will talk about it. The government, the GOP candidates, the MSM will not even mention it and the melt down here will probably be soon after the election, then which ever party is in the WH will have to break the news to the millions of brain dead sheeple, we're broke, we're out of paper to print more money and no one will give us any more credit.


Everybody is refusing to believe or understand this is a real problem

I will correct you on one minor point, as the reserve nation status, we don't actually borrow any money, we infinitely borrow money. The problem comes in, and believe it or not, it's some of what is causing the problems overseas, we create worldwide inflation. We're avoiding it, because most of what is getting hit are things like food, which we export.


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## Bigdog57 (Oct 9, 2008)

Since our 'money' is really just based on DEBT, not real value, and since 'money' in the national/global sense isn't 'printed' so much as 'created' in a virtual banking system, all they need to do is shift the decimal - "Voila!", another many BILLIONS of 'dollars' pumped into the system. It's all on computer files. So easy, a Federal Caveman can do it......


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

I know everything you guys have been saying but for some reason... especially as of late... you guys are scaring the shit out of me. I feel like I am tied to the tracks in front of the "economic meltdown" train station.

I have seen a train coming down the track for at least the past five or so years and I keep telling myself I have a little more time before the train hits the station but I swear now I am hearing the whistle blow and I am wondering if I have enough time to get out of its way before I get squashed... this should scare the crap out of everyone. 

We all know it wont even be in the back of most folks minds until its far too late -- if it isnt too late already. I am in a place where I DO NOT WANT TO BE when that train comes in yet I cant quite leave just yet either. Some day -- maybe soon -- I may disappear from this forum without warning (no clapping!) and if I do rest assured it is a good sign (unless its because of some JBT). Hopefully it means I have escaped the tracks in front of the station and am on my homestead feeding chickens, raising goats and living the homesteaders dream.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

TheAnt said:


> I know everything you guys have been saying but for some reason... especially as of late... you guys are scaring the shit out of me. I feel like I am tied to the tracks in front of the "economic meltdown" train station.
> 
> I have seen a train coming down the track for at least the past five or so years and I keep telling myself I have a little more time before the train hits the station but I swear now I am hearing the whistle blow and I am wondering if I have enough time to get out of its way before I get squashed... this should scare the crap out of everyone.
> 
> We all know it wont even be in the back of most folks minds until its far too late -- if it isnt too late already. I am in a place where I DO NOT WANT TO BE when that train comes in yet I cant quite leave just yet either. Some day -- maybe soon -- I may disappear from this forum without warning (no clapping!) and if I do rest assured it is a good sign (unless its because of some JBT). Hopefully it means I have escaped the tracks in front of the station and am on my homestead feeding chickens, raising goats and living the homesteaders dream.


I thought I could see the light at the end of the tunnel, but damned if it wasn't that train. 
yep I too believe that we are about to be totally screwed because it's not "if" anymore, it's "when". All we can do is keep on prepping and we will make it when it all else has gone to Hell.


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## RevWC (Mar 28, 2011)

"As Rome debased its silver denarius into lead, Rome’s power to purchase compliance faded away. If “Helicopter Ben” Bernanke inflates away the purchasing power of the dollar, Washington’s power will melt away also."

All of the inflation around the world is by design to collapse the Western World! They are well on their way with Nancy, Harry, and Hussein not providing a real budget and spending 6.5 trillion in 3 years more than all of the Presidents and Congress before them by .3 Trillion.

We have all lost 1/2 of everything we have while they have 6.5 trillion dollars disappear in 3 years. (David Copperfield can’t even figure it out) That is something like $20,000.00 for every man, woman and child that live in the USA. 

Folks I do believe this is :shtf:eep: 
.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Math*



Davarm said:


> Well, Fox News was reporting on the rioting in Greece and went on to say that independent economist are predicting the same in the U.S. within 2 years. Currently we, The U.S., is paying $4,000,000,000(billion) a WEEK in interest on the deficit, and by 2016 that will jump to $9,200,000,000 a week.
> 
> Was Megan Kelly just spitting into the wind or is their something to this claim? At what point will the interest exceed the income and what will happen then? I'm afraid I know the answer to that one, thats why I am prepping.


All you have to do is the math.

It isn't prophetcy it is just math.

Do you know what an exponential equation is ?

When the inflation rate starts to double, the price of everything will double every two weeks until a 1.00 can of beans costs $128.00 in just fourteen weeks !

This happened in Argentinia and will soon happen in Grease and Spain.

It is coming here and will happen very quickly.

The goverment will tell you everything is OK the day before it happens.


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

oldvet said:


> I thought I could see the light at the end of the tunnel


According to Jason's signature line:

*Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of gas, electricity, and oil, as well as current market conditions, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off.*


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## SuspectZero (Feb 3, 2011)

Hyperinflation is otw. The average price of gas has doubled since 2008 along with many other commodities. Our debt to gdp ration means nothing when you look at all of our unfunded liabilities. The OP said in the next 2 years which is what caught my attention. My wife text me from work today saying a patient of hers (whos a doctor) told her the same thing. In 2 years. She has been frantic all night talking about all the things we need to do and to speed up our preparedness. Drastic cuts must be made and people must learn to ween off the gov teet or we will fail as a society. If any of our households did what the gov has we'd have declared brankruptcy 10 ten times over by now. Continue preparing for the worst and hope for the best. As another prepper friend of mine said being in the mindset of preparing already puts you ahead of 99% of other people.


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## partdeux (Aug 3, 2011)

Zero,

The problem is getting people off the govt teet. There is no weaning off. It will be anarchy and riots in the street when it happens.


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## Clarice (Aug 19, 2010)

Prep like there is no tomorrow, because tomorrow may be the day. Every morning I wake up thinking this could be the day. It keeps me motivated, not in a crazy way, but in a calm and organinzed frame of mind.


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## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

I know it's conjecture, but what exactly will we heard on the news or see in the paper that we haven't already seen when these wheels get rolling? Will the media try to downplay everything like I assume they will (and have been). I just don't want to try to read between the lines. I want a CLEAR message like "take cover" or "run for the hills" or some such thing.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

lazydaisy67 said:


> I know it's conjecture, but what exactly will we heard on the news or see in the paper that we haven't already seen when these wheels get rolling? Will the media try to downplay everything like I assume they will (and have been). I just don't want to try to read between the lines. I want a CLEAR message like "take cover" or "run for the hills" or some such thing.


The wheels ARE rolling! And as expected the media HAS been covering up. You want a CLEAR message? Here you go:

Take cover NOW! Run for the hills NOW! There is only so much more our financial system can take before the curtains go up and our hideous financial situation is laid bare before everyone -- when that happens it is already too late for you to prepare (ie. take cover and run for the hills).


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## denniscarmichael (Nov 29, 2010)

I would have already run for the hills as I had planned for the first of this month if my daughter hadn't informed me of my becoming a grandfather in Sept. Since she doesn't want to believe that everything is going to collapse, she won't leave until it's too late, and I can't leave her here WTSHTF. I still haven't figured out how to handle this situation since I'm convinced that we won't even make it through THIS year. The economy is too bad to save no matter what we do.


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## SierraM37 (Nov 2, 2008)

*Silence*

We likely won't hear anything as in one cataclysmic event. It will happen like Lehman IMHO. There will be a trigger, likely in Europe and likely from Greece defaulting rather than succumbing to the banks bailout. When you hear about it on the news that night, it will be too late, for the financial markets anyway.

Once the capital markets collapse under the weight of all the debt being defaulted on, that's when the Gov'ts time starts running out. With collapsed capital markets the ability to sell bonds to fund the deficit spending dries up. The Fed ? The only thing they have left, even today, is hyper inflation, which they've conveniently exported to the rest of the world already and has started the dominoes falling in the Middle East. Well, it's come home to roost as Gas here in Kalifornia is $3.76 as of yesterday.

Stock up, prepare to hunker down and live a much more simple life after thing settle out.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

denniscarmichael said:


> I would have already run for the hills as I had planned for the first of this month if my daughter hadn't informed me of my becoming a grandfather in Sept. Since she doesn't want to believe that everything is going to collapse, she won't leave until it's too late, and I can't leave her here WTSHTF. I still haven't figured out how to handle this situation since I'm convinced that we won't even make it through THIS year. The economy is too bad to save no matter what we do.


Dennis, although the situation is dire you are correct, you cannot leave your daughter. Just want to give you some moral support and tell you that you are doing the right thing. Remember your survival is and always has been in Gods hands and leave that to Him and prepare as best you can for what you see coming. Best of luck to you and your family!


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

Dennis, you are right about not leaving your daughter. My belief is that when my first child was born, my life ceased being my own. From that point my sole purpose for existing is to give them, my next generation, every possible advantage possible in life. I am not waiting on them hand and foot or allowing them to sit back and have a life of leisure, no way, but, I am doing all I can do to ensure that they have the best chance at making it in this new world coming down the road, thats what families do in my book. 

I did my running around, sowed my wild oats, and had my fun before they arrived in this world, now they(and my grandson) are my priority. I'm not saying that I am their slave - far from it. They are learning what no school or college can teach, how to take care of themselves and think independently.

Don't abandon your daughter.


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## AlabamaGal (Dec 27, 2011)

denniscarmichael said:


> I would have already run for the hills as I had planned for the first of this month if my daughter hadn't informed me of my becoming a grandfather in Sept. Since she doesn't want to believe that everything is going to collapse, she won't leave until it's too late, and I can't leave her here WTSHTF. I still haven't figured out how to handle this situation since I'm convinced that we won't even make it through THIS year. The economy is too bad to save no matter what we do.


Perhaps you can get far enough away to be within bug-out distance but not so far that you can't see the tyke often? The cost of living is mighty cheap in the Alabama Black Belt... provided you don't need a job because there aren't any to be had.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

Run now, run to the hills? Too many preppers are unable to let go of their current life, their current jobs, and step out of their 'comfort' zone and move to a safer place. They have as many excuses as sheeple sometimes! The ones who plan to stay where they are, are prepping for that scenario. But there are plenty that wring their hands and say they know they need to get out of Dodge. The question is... will they? Will they, before it's too late? *tick...tock...tick...tock...* 

Time is running out.


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## md1911 (Feb 9, 2012)

gypsysue said:


> Run now, run to the hills? Too many preppers are unable to let go of their current life, their current jobs, and step out of their 'comfort' zone and move to a safer place. They have as many excuses as sheeple sometimes! The ones who plan to stay where they are, are prepping for that scenario. But there are plenty that wring their hands and say they know they need to get out of Dodge. The question is... will they? Will they, before it's too late? *tick...tock...tick...tock...*
> 
> Time is running out.


I agree to bad family concerns keep me from going now


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

md1911 said:


> I agree to bad family concerns keep me from going now


Then just do all you can to make the place where you are as safe as you can.


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## md1911 (Feb 9, 2012)

Ya that's what I'm doing thanks


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

It is a sad state of affairs that so many are already in a survival mode, just not the one they need to be in. For those here that are working, running a business, starting families, buying homes, renting and etc. you are already in a survival mode. Making sure there is food and water, a roof over your head and transportation to get you to whatever you do, that's survival but it can also be an unavoidable distraction. When you're in this type of survival mode it's very hard to afford setting yourself up for the ultimate survival needs. The first thing I tell people is GET OUT OF DEBT, quit relying on credit cards, forget about all those fancy specialty coffees, stop smoking, stop gambling (the odds are NOT on your side) and get down to basics. I know many have to stay in areas that are far less than desirable because that's where the jobs are but you can work on bug out and when you do do research on every path out of were your are, know your alternatives and you'll stand a better chance of getting out of what could be a zone of hell and zombies. I really wish all that have this "survival preparedness" attitude could have their country home as some of us have, but I know that you have responsibilities that have you somewhat locked in, but figure ways to get unlocked if you see the turd heading for the fan.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

lazydaisy67 said:


> I know it's conjecture, but what exactly will we heard on the news or see in the paper that we haven't already seen when these wheels get rolling? Will the media try to downplay everything like I assume they will (and have been). I just don't want to try to read between the lines. I want a CLEAR message like "take cover" or "run for the hills" or some such thing.


The world will dump the dollar as the world's reserve currency. We're going to see sudden and drastic price increases first in gasoline and then in everything we buy in the store.


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## Clarice (Aug 19, 2010)

Stay or go, Prepare Now! I feel the balloon will go up sooner than we thought. The hair on the back of my neck is standing up. Things are getting so out of hand. Iran, Syria, Greece, the ecconomy, fuel prices. Fuel prices going up will effect the price of everything else we use or eat.


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## partdeux (Aug 3, 2011)

BillS said:


> The world will dump the dollar as the world's reserve currency. We're going to see sudden and drastic price increases first in gasoline and then in everything we buy in the store.


You won't see any other country's currency used as "reserve" currency. But, you might see something like gold used as the reserve.

Other countries are seeing the massive inflation, and it is part of the cause of the overseas riots, food costs have soared through the roof. We are somewhat immune, because we produce our own food. Products from China are somewhat immune, because the Chinese govt manipulates the currency value to US value.


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## goshengirl (Dec 18, 2010)

Clarice said:


> I feel the balloon will go up sooner than we thought. The hair on the back of my neck is standing up.


Same here.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

It's the old saying of "Waiting for the other shoe to drop." We've heard the first shoe drop with the huge increase of turmoil around the world (all in the name of democracy, what a joke), unending printing of phony money to throw at problems that the powers that be don't want solved in the first place, total distractions to keep us off balance while they steal whatever we have left. One could not find a more vile, evil despotic people than the globalist puppet masters. Wither its the hair standing up on the back of your neck or the anticipation of waiting for the other shoe to drop it's like a premonition of something evil is about to happen. The silence before the storm or in our case here, that short silence just before the SHTF. In past decades the erosion of freedom has been incremental. Much like how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. Now the pace has picked up one hundred fold and we here are seeing huge bites being taken and that's why the hair on the back of your neck is standing up, it truly is frightening to the core of our being.


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## partdeux (Aug 3, 2011)

inteesting reading, which crosses over several different threads here


> After this past week I'm apoplectic with rage and fury as the rule of law has been discarded and the Constitution trampled upon by a wealthy connected oligarchy bent upon using their absolute power to further enrich themselves. The Wall Street banks that committed the largest financial crime in history, including: fraud in the inducement, forgery, fabricating documents, bribing rating agencies to rate toxic mortgages as AAA, selling fraudulent derivatives to customers, shorting the derivatives they sold to their customers, throwing millions of Americans out of their homes, charging inflated and bogus fees during the foreclosure process, and conducting a colossal cover-up, were slapped on the wrist and made to pay a miniscule $5 billion to the millions of victims of their crimes. Not one banker has been prosecuted. Not one person has gone to jail. Justice in this country is a putrid joke. There has been no outrage from the general public. The propaganda spewed by the corporate media instructs the masses to rejoice at this fair and just verdict. The truth is that 95% of the population didn't know or didn't care about the 50 state foreclosure-gate settlement. They were engrossed by the huge controversy over M.I.A. flipping the bird during the Super Bowl halftime show and whether Madonna was upset about the incident.
> 
> *source*


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## stayingthegame (Mar 22, 2011)

if we poor have nothing left maybe the rich will leave us alone?


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## Jaspar (Feb 3, 2010)

stayingthegame said:


> if we poor have nothing left maybe the rich will leave us alone?


Think again. The spooky super rich NWO dudes believe a couple of things.

You and I are taking up their land, air and resources. It's theirs. 
:dunno:

They won't stop until we're all slaves/serfs, or dead.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

Jaspar said:


> Think again. The spooky super rich NWO dudes believe a couple of things.
> 
> You and I are taking up their land, air and resources. It's theirs.
> :dunno:
> ...


I've been saying this for years, they look at us as parasites and they are very jealous of the things they think they own. This all goes back to the understanding of what our founding fathers had, that of breaking free of the monarchy. Where the king of England owned the land, the rivers and the lakes. He owned the deer in the forests and the fish in the rivers and lakes and if the serfs were caught killing those deer or catching the fish for there families to eat, more than likely they would be put to death. The only care that the NWO people have for the common man and woman is the use of our productive years, generally 18 to 35. After that you become a non productive consumer. This is a "Logan's Run" scenario.


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

Davarm said:


> *Was Megan Kelly just spitting into the wind or is their something to this claim? At what point will the interest exceed the income and what will happen then? *I'm afraid I know the answer to that one, thats why I am prepping.


Here's a simple exercise that can answer your question. Look at the current interest rate on T-Bills and then compare to the interest rate in a high inflationary period. Currently the Feds are paying 0.13% on a one year term, 0.72% on a 5 year term and 1.87% on a 10 year term. Back in the late-Carter an early Reagan era, interest rates were higher, for instance, in the week of Sept 4, 1981, the Feds were paying a yield of 17.15% for a 1 year term and 16.13% for a 5-year term.

Here is the simple algebra - if we ASSUME that the Feds have rolled over all of their debt and managed to sell it at present low rates, say a 5 year maturity at 0.72% and this is resulting in $4 billion per week in interest, then if inflation of the Carter era returns and that Federal Debt has to be borrowed at a 5 year term of 16.13%, a multiple of 22.4x the present rate, then the current $4 billion per week would balloon up to $89.6 Billion per week. Present annual interest payments of ($4 B x 52 weeks) $208 billion would balloon up to $4,659 Billion per year, which is $1 Trillion more than the present Federal spending of 2011 of $3,598 Billion.

And keep in mind that the high interest rates of the Carter era weren't really all that bad in the grand scheme of things when we compare to what other countries with collapsed finances have had to endure. An interest rate of 15% would be a godsend to most credit card borrowers - it's tough, but certainly people can live with it. The problem here is the gargantuan amount of money that we've borrowed to live beyond our means. When that high, but manageable, interest rate is applied to the total federal debt, then maintaining debt service on the debt becomes unmanageable.



Viking said:


> The first thing I tell people is GET OUT OF DEBT, quit relying on credit cards, forget about all those fancy specialty coffees, stop smoking, stop gambling (the odds are NOT on your side) and get down to basics.


If we are heading to an era of higher inflation and interest rates, then the last thing you should be doing is getting out of debt. You should be using debt to load up on assets which can appreciate in an inflationary cycle. You borrow money at today's rates and you repay the principal sometime in the future with devalued dollars. Buy a farm for $200,000 by borrowing $150,000 at 5% and ten years later, when the farm is worth (10 compounding of $200,000 at annual rate of 15%) $809,000 you repay the remaining principal on the $150,000 loan.

Secondly, debt markets depend on society being orderly but if the SHTF and credit agencies can't use the threat of bad credit to induce you to cooperate and the courts system breaks down and liens, seizure orders and garnishee orders can't be executed because so many people have moved their lives to the black market and off-grid, then it really won't matter that you've been sued, that your credit is in the toilet. The only situation which would matter is if you borrowed money from friends and family and stiffing them involves personal hardship. If the banks go down then it won't matter that the whole credit system has collapsed because all that you had invested and deposited with the bank is worthless, so the fact that you owe the bank will similarly matter very little. What will matter a lot is what you've done with the money that you borrowed. If you're in possession of land or survival assets, then you've done very well on your borrowing transaction because instead of saving your money and being debt free and being in possession of worthless paper money, you control assets.

Even if you completely discount the doomsday scenario of society completely breaking down and simply go with having to live in a highly inflationary economy, the smart thing to do is to borrow and buy appreciating assets which keep pace with inflation and then repay your loans with future devalued dollars.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

I guess I can only know the experience of getting out from under $50,000 debt to find that after we cleared the debt from hanging around our necks we found that each dollar spent feels like it has the buying power of $10. We have done things with a less than average income that others in debt with six figure incomes were unable to do. Maybe we're just a fluke, who knows but one thing I will admit to is that there are cycles that run through time and perhaps we were woken up at the right curve of a cycle which we grabbed onto that set us free. We lost our butts on a few investments, to try and start our own businesses. One shining example of stupidity was one that came in at the tail end of the Dot Com boom when we tried marketing web pages. A few others were equally as costly, we call them lessons learned on what not to do. By being out of debt we're able to stay ahead of the inflation increases in food and fuel which are not recorded in the BLS because they claim those prices are too volatile. Anyway, I'll lay our debt free life against indebted people I know that earn four times what our income is and all I can tell you is that they are a slave to debt and can't do what we can do. If I revealed here what our income is most here would probably think we were poverty stricken. The truth is we learned to have delayed gratification, we lived minimally, we lived in a 17 foot travel trailer for 17 years while we built things, paid cash for supplies, double paid our property payments so we could get out from under the interest that could no longer be discounted by the IRS at tax time. So, as things go, for my wife and I being at the low end of a five figure income we consider ourselves to be more than free.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

Since I pretty much filled the previous post space I might add here that many of the people I tell to get debt free couldn't even begin to get the loans that Bobbb is talking about. Many are just scraping by, some pay check to pay check. Some are concerned their jobs will disappear because the saw mill has to cut back due to no new homes being built. With so many banks closing many banks around here are reluctant to make home or car loans as they get better returns from the government for sitting on the cash. So I guess in talking about getting out of debt it's all relative, we live in an area of high unemployment, low standard of living and low income levels but on the other hand it is paradise. It has a fairly good growing season, weather is very moderate (not too hot in the summer and not too cold in the winter), lots of game in the forest and fish in lakes and streams and mountains to hide in if necessary. It's just that there is a price to pay for living in paradise and that's low income and lack of jobs.


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

Viking said:


> Anyway, I'll lay our debt free life against indebted people I know that earn four times what our income is and all I can tell you is that they are a slave to debt and can't do what we can do.


Being debt free in a low interest/low inflation environment is different advice than doing the same in a high interest/high inflation environment, especially an environment where the RATE of inflation is increasing month over month. You lock in a loan rate and you pay back the nominal principal you've borrowed but every month you make a payment, the actual value of the dollars you use to make your payment are less. This is why it sucks to be a lender in an inflationary environment.

Your financial advice to people is sound FOR TODAY, but the topic of this thread is "economic meltdown" and I know of no economic meltdowns which occurred with sound money systems. Economic meltdowns are usually tied at the hip to high inflation and hyper inflation.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

Bobbb said:


> Even if you completely discount the doomsday scenario of society completely breaking down and simply go with having to live in a highly inflationary economy, the smart thing to do is to borrow and buy appreciating assets which keep pace with inflation and then repay your loans with future devalued dollars.


I believe you are correct -- the problem is that we dont know when the S is going to HTF and you dont want to go bankrupt before SHTF. I wouldnt recommend necessarily going into debt for anything that you would have to pay off in the short term however if you are in the market for a farm or homestead in the country and that is how you want to live dont let the fear of future debt scare you off from it. I also wouldnt recommend paying more than the minimum payment on your debt at this time unless you have so much money it doesnt matter (none of us here I presume). Instead pay the minimum payment (pay the principal and interest payment) and prep with the rest of your finances.

This is what I think EVERYONE HERE needs to understand on this topic:
!*!*!*!*!In all likelyhood we will see unprecidented inflation, if so, your money is worth more now than it will be next year, 2 years, 10 years, 20 years. Spend your money while it has the most value on things that you will need now and later while you can afford it. Food, tools, and maybe even land purchased today will be worth more tomorrow -- and possibly the prices so inflated that you cannot afford them in the future. BUY NOW, SAVE LATER.!*!*!*!*!

Personally I am saving my money to purchase land (maybe a house too) where I want to live. I have a small window of opportunity to do this before my money is worth less (if not worthless). I am hoping to make this transaction this year or next. In the meantime if there is something I *KNOW* I will need in the future (prep wise) I go ahead and purchase it. My family and I are making sacrifices NOW to make the most of our money NOW by purchasing things we will need (and possibly wont be able to get) in the future.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

I spent alot of time and effort getting out of debt, what you'll are saying makes sense as I read it but I am not going to throw all that away and go back into debt. I am debt free now, I own my own house and land, it is only an 1800 hundred square feet double wide(that needs a new roof and to be leveled at some point in the near future) on 2 acres of land, but I will never have to worry about some banker knocking on my door trying to take it. I drive a 12 year old Tahoe, still runs good and is in good shape. I have a bank debit card, no credit cards or other plastic and no other loans, secured or unsecured.

If I want to take off for a week and go fishing, nooo problem - I go. If I want to buy a wind generator and bank of batteries(which I do), I will save and drop the cash and for it. The future has too many unknowns to go back into debt even if you can spend the money now while it is worth more.

I am no college educated economist and i'm not independently wealthy. The things being said in the above posts may well be true and good advice to heed but, I will stay debt free and worry a little less about the future. It holds enough unknowns to prepare for without worrying about loosing it all.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

Davarm said:


> I spent alot of time and effort getting out of debt, what you'll are saying makes sense as I read it but I am not going to throw all that away and go back into debt.


Davarm, I wouldnt argue at all with you on this point. Being debt free is a GREAT way to live. Ultimately that is my plan as well (essentially) but for many if not most of us debt is something we are going to have for the next 30+ years unless we commit a sizeable portion of any 'extra' finances we *might* have to paying down the principal. Even if we were to do that we may not be able to pay off that debt in 10 years. In 10 years it may not even matter. If times were a little more stable I would recommend folks pay down that principal but as things stand that may not be the best course of action for many. I think you understand this and said as much in your post. You keep doing what you are doing, you have done well to be debt free. I congratulate you and hope I can say the same some day! :congrat:


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## partdeux (Aug 3, 2011)

Davarm said:


> I am no college educated economist and i'm not independently wealthy. The things being said in the above posts may well be true and good advice to heed but, I will stay debt free and worry a little less about the future. It holds enough unknowns to prepare for without worrying about loosing it all.


Being highly educated does not make you any smarter.

You own the shelter, you own the land, you owe nobody nothing. That's an ineviable position to be in. A very small percentage of people have that.

I own my house, I have a small amount of credit card debt, which we are focusing on getting rid of. One car loan, and my student loans from my MBA.

Trying to manipulate everything for the potential collapse is a throw of the dice. We are going to be stuck with what ever black swan event comes our way. Hyper inflation, total collapse, one world currency??? Each of these would require a different planning. I'm working on not being enslaved to nobody, and have sufficient resources to supprt us for some limited time period. My belief is we're going to see a total societal collapse, and it's not going to matter what you have done. It will be pure adhoc for what little bit of society that remains.


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## AlabamaGal (Dec 27, 2011)

Leveraging debt can be a viable strategy, especially in a robust economy. It is also a very risky one. The point of leveraging debt is that you HAVE the cash but you choose to invest it comewhere where you will (you hope) get a higher rate of return than the interest you pay on your debt. 

Deliberately going into debt when you know you can't pay it on demand? That's a different thing altogether, and is even more risky. For some, the risk may seem worth it, but as partdeux pointed out, you are betting the farm on one particular economic scenario. You might be wrong, and you need to think about what your exit strategy is if that happens.


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

Davarm said:


> The things being said in the above posts may well be true and good advice to heed but, I will stay debt free and worry a little less about the future. It holds enough unknowns to prepare for without worrying about loosing it all.


What would you say to a new prepper who in planning for a SHTF event is to buy a 10th floor apartment right next to a supermarket so that they never run out of food?

I would guess that you'd tell them that they have to educate themselves some more on the nitty gritty of what happens, or is likely to happen, in a number of SHTF scenarios and that counting on "existing processes/features of society" continuing uninterrupted, like daily food deliveries to supermarkets, is going to be an assumption that is highly loaded with risk of not continuing.

Well the same principle applies to debt issues. Debt is a tool to use to help you be better prepared, just like having a BOB is a tool to use to help you in the event of a SHTF event, and having a BOL to go to is a tool to use.

You shouldn't use debt to get a new plasma TV but you should use debt to help you buy an appreciating asset and this rule strengthens in an inflationary economy. To ignore this rule only hurts you, just like ignoring what would happen to food deliveries to supermarkets would also hurt you if the SHTF.


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

partdeux said:


> I'm working on not being enslaved to nobody, and have sufficient resources to supprt us for some limited time period. My belief is we're going to see a total societal collapse, and it's not going to matter what you have done. It will be pure adhoc for what little bit of society that remains.


Being enslaved to someone, in modern society, means that your slavemaster can seize your assets, garnishee your wages, put liens on your assets thus preventing you from selling them and so on. ALL of these tools of the "slavemaster" absolutely require a functioning society to be useful. If you think that we are going to see a total societal collapse, then that event is going to break all the chains that that the slavemaster is using to hold onto his slaves. If you owe Citibank $10,000 on your credit card good luck to Citibank in having your wages garnisheed or your vehicle seized when there is no one working at the Courthouse to process the garnishee order and there are no bailiffs to seize your car because everyone is off trying to survive in a society that has collapsed and that's not to mention the fact that there would be no one at Citibank actually trying to collect your credit card balance from you because for the person who used to do that job when times were normal, it was just a job to them, it wasn't money that you owed them in person, so to them they don't really care whether you pay it back to Citibank or not.

You know there is also a flipside to the issue of disorder arising from a societal collapse - you can't count on society backing you up with legal ownership records for your property. You'll "own" the property that you can stand on and defend against those who want to take over "ownership." You having no mortgage on the property in a post-collapse society likely won't be too important.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

First of all, I sense that some of you are think that I am taking a "mightier than thou" approach for being debt free, that could not be further from the truth and if that is how I presented myself, I humbly apologize, my error completely. 

I spent most of my life in debt and after a nasty divorce in which I lost everything I gained all the family debt. I did eventually get my children back but I kept the debt. I vowed to never be in debt again. That's where I am coming from on the issue. Worrying about a SHTF situation didn't have that much to do with it but was a consideration.

I understand that debt can be a tool in modern society but that is a game I have chosen not to play, possibly because I have proven to myself that I dont play it very well, my shortcoming and I accept it. It does have its draw backs but I have learned to live with them.

Bottom line, I do not put someone down for having debt, probably the opposite, putting myself down because I dont deal well with it. Now that that is cleared up, lets continue with productive discussions.


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## SierraM37 (Nov 2, 2008)

I think the point here is most would prefer to be debt free. If you are like me, you still have a mortgage. My thinking as it relates to current events is, if you believe inflation is going to pick up, hyper or not, it is worth considering refinancing. I'm 10 years in on a fixed 30. I could refi and save perhaps $600 per month, so that, in and of itself is seriously being considered. Inflation, in theory, will make the even smaller mortgage more affordable, if you have work and income. If I refi, it makes savings go farther if I become unemployed. 

We have 12 acres and two homes on the prop and don't want to lose it and grabbing a lower payment, even if extending it out to 30 again, is something to seriously consider. I don't have the means to pay off the balance yet and would if I could. Everyone's situation is different and I heartily applaud those who are free and clear!


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

> The problem is getting people off the govt teet. There is no weaning off. It will be anarchy and riots in the street when it happens.


So true and the reason for Greece's riots, due to voting for "austerity measures", meaning they are kicking people off the socialist government rolls and their people are so used to being taken care of, they feel entitled and thus are rioting because their entitlements taken. Same will most certainly happen here, this is one example of the entitlement mentallity: http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/02/portland_police_arrest_five_sq.html

These people, anarchists and Occupy movement involved, decided that what someone else worked for should be theres simply because it should be...this type of trouble will be multiplied when our own police forces are dwindled because of budget cuts, or none at all. When SHTF these kinds will be out there taking full advantage of our governments collapse due to financial strains, and this will leave us to taking care of ourselves.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

Here's my thoughts on the ramifications of a complete economic melt down. Let's just say that the US dollar gets wiped out and you have mortgaged property for approximately $200,000 because you may have in mind that with the economy collapsed no one is going to collect on what you owe, maybe there will be debt forgiveness and you'll be just fine. Then again your name is on the books in the bank, mortgage company and county records and if whatever powers that be want just recompense by appropriating your property. Or on a county level engage eminent domain. These situations can and do happen. Here in S.W. Oregon there are groups working on accumulating private and federal lands to turn into wilderness, part of the Re-Wilding of America. So far there is 535,000 acres proposed and state wide these NGO groups want another 5,000,000 acres of Federal (We The Peoples) Land. Believe me they wouln't hesitate to add so called privately owned (Your mortgaged property) property. If you hold title to your property have you looked at the way the title is written? Most are written with the property owner as being a "Tenant". The only way one can possess property full and free is by having an Alloidial Title, if you can get one. If the county in which you buy property hasn't already been presented with a request for and alloidial title you may be able to get one but they learn fast, they don't like the freedom that that type of title provides. Usually an alloidial title is payed for with silver coins. Getting one now days may be next to impossible but if you can then the land is truly yours and it's doubtful if eminent domain could remove the property from you without just compensation. This is all that I will add, in fact due to the huge increase in actions by the powers that be in destroying the Constitution and this Republic I'm going to have to put more of my time and efforts towards getting freedom retaining information out to as many as will listen. infowars.com is the best information source for what's really going on in the world that I have ever seen or heard off in the over thirty years that I've been studying freedom issues.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

Davarm...good buddy and pal! We, too, are debt free. We own our home/land and vehicles free and clear, and no credit cards or other loans. I'm glad to meet someone else who is in the same position. We paid our home/land off in a little over half the time of the owner-financed land contract we had. It's a dang good feeling, and there is no way we'd take a loan for anything or get into debt again. I love the freedom. We worked hard to get where we are, and now we have the time (and still have the health!) to enjoy our 'toys'!


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## goshengirl (Dec 18, 2010)

gypsysue said:


> I love the freedom.


We're debt free with the exception of our home (and that's a big exception). But even with that, I understand what you mean about the freedom - it's exactly the word I was going to use.


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## stayingthegame (Mar 22, 2011)

we are almost debt free. would be except for the bills from dh's heart attack (no insurance). working on that. we were debt free before that and had been for many years.


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## Roslyn (Feb 20, 2012)

If you really want to learn the insanity that is our banking and monetary systems then check out the Zeitgeist movies. Peter Joseph does a great job teaching how money and banking works in really easy to understand terms.

It's amazing how insane it is. Every little penny in your pocket or that jar on the shelf is only on LOAN and you owe interest!!!

Economic collapse is happening all around us. My husband makes double the income that he did 9 years ago, yet we can NOT afford anything past roof, electricity and nat. gas heat and cooking. No phone, no cable tv, no vacations, no eating out. We are at bare minimum, yet his take home pay is double. 

That is collapse.


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

We too scrape by and just make it. We have things we could do without, like extended basic cable, but it is really cheap part of a package deal in order to have phone and internet, so we took it. Have pondered getting rid of both phone and cable, since we have cell phones, and having cable means sitting and watching TV instead of being more productive.

It is the electricity that is eating up our budget. Rates are unbelievable now. We have baseboard heaters and it is all too easy to just turn them on instead of using the wood stove. We have to keep electricity going for all the usual reasons, but we have a well pump and neighbors are tied into our system and share the well, so have to keep it going (besides flushng toilet would become and issue). Our lease payment is less than what a house payment could be, and this works for us right now, the size of the place is right, and location is a wonderful.

My husbands income is also quite decent from what it used to be, but things have gone up and it gets gobbled up by all the basics. My mother was recalling how much more affordable things were back in the 60's when they were having all 6 of us. Though she felt that incomes have pretty much kept up with things, it's the food, household goods and electricity prices that are eating away at leftover income.


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## partdeux (Aug 3, 2011)

HoppeEL4 said:


> extended basic cable, but it is really cheap part of a package deal in order to have phone and internet,
> ...
> how much more affordable things were back in the 60's when they were having all 6 of us.


we live a totally different life today

Drop the cable and put up an antenna. Compromise and get a TIVO. Make the internet a commodity, drop the house phone. Pay careful attention to all the electron vampires. Once my kids left the house, it was amazing how much my electric bill went down.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

Banking on hyperinflation is speculation at best. I could tell lots of stories of people who borrowed to buy land, homes, equipment and all kinds of other things banking on the belief that "this, that or the other" would happen in the future. When it didn't pan out they lost everything. The rule of thumb is to never use money you can't do without for speculation on anything!

I've seen farmers mortgae their land to buy more land because land prices were skyrocketing and there seemed to be no end in sight. The local bankers actually went to their homes and talked them into taking out loans using the equity in their land for down payments. Two years later the bottom fell out and almost every one of those farmers went bankrupt. We have neighbors who bought land when prices were going up here and expected to make a killing. Wrong!!! They actually mortgaged their homes to get loans and now have serious financial problems because of the current recession. 

I've seen some real "experts" make fools out of themselves when forecasting future events.

Be careful of debt. What Bobbbbbbbb is saying is pure speculation. He's banking on hyperinflation and/or TEOTWAWKI. I'd be careful of this idea that there will be no repossessions in the event the SHTF. First, it will depend on how serious it is. Second, what makes you think the banks wouldn't sell the delinquent debts to a collection agency or the highest bidder who will find ways to drive you off the property or simply reposses whatever you owe money on? Think about it, if a business offered to sell you a generator, vehicle, or whatever that someone had defaulted on at 10 percent of it's market value would you take him up? Not even if all you had to do was go get it? If it was yours and you are the one who owed on it, would you take a chance of getting shot to keep it? If someone owed you something and quit paying on it, what would you do to get the money or get the merchandise back? How would it be different after TSHTF and you didn't have to worry so much about legal reprisals?

I had a friend tell me that in the Great Depression his father had a mortgage on his farm with the local bank. He also had more in savings than he owed on the farm. The bank went broke and called his loan in. His savings were gone AND the bank repossessed his farm. Talk about injustice! But the "law" was on the bank's side and the sheriff served the eviction notice so they were homeless and without an income.

Be careful with debt. If you want to speculate on future events then do it with money you don't need. Speculating on future conditions or events is just a different form of gambling.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

partdeux said:


> we live a totally different life today
> 
> Drop the cable and put up an antenna. Compromise and get a TIVO. Make the internet a commodity, drop the house phone. Pay careful attention to all the electron vampires. Once my kids left the house, it was amazing how much my electric bill went down.


Works if you live close enough to a city that has broadcast TV stations, and you have a HDTV that will receive the transmissions! We don't on either count! We also live where there is no cell signal.

I agree on dropping cable, though. There's much to watch for free on the internet, including most of the TV shows, often within a day after they aired on cable/satelite.

Ghost loads are a killer. We're off-grid with solar power, and we can tell you that it DOES make a different to unplug things, or to use outlet strips that can be unplugged. Something was draining our power slowly but surely and we had everything like the TV and computers unplugged. Darned if it didn't turn out to be my old radio/cassette/CD player, turned to "off" but plugged in. I had no idea an older simple-electronic thing like that would be such a power leech. :dunno: People on the grid seldom think about the nickel-and-dime stuff running their power bills up, slowly but surely.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

Sue, we buy our internet by the Gig, its the only option open to us so...no videos, no games(thank goodness), or any other high bandwidth features. If we could get high speed here, bye bye Dish Network.

Hoppe, with the new regulations power companies have to follow, Im afraid that the electricity rates are only going to go up so no relief in that area. Where we have cut big bucks is our garden. If I remember your posts, you raise a good part of food also, a good choice would be to make it produce every little bit possible(that is if you dont already) . I was out tilling all day today and when I finished up I drug the 100 foot tape out and came up with a rough increase from 1/2 to 3/4 of an acre. My goal is to have as much of our 2 acres as possible producing food.

We have kind of a game we play during the garden season, we see how little we can spend at the grocery store - that includes anything purchased, food, soaps.... Our best month was 2 years ago when we spent a total of less than $40.00(maybe 50-its been a while) and we did not go without very much. Thats for a family of four(myself and 3 daughters at the time).

Make a game out of it, what you can do may surprise you and forgive me if you are already doing that.


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## partdeux (Aug 3, 2011)

gypsysue said:


> Works if you live close enough to a city that has broadcast TV stations, and you have a HDTV that will receive the transmissions! We don't on either count! We also live where there is no cell signal.


Tivo is your friend 

They are making some great high gain omni directional antennas.

Then there's always amazon to pay to DL those can't miss cable shows, or you may consider torrents to DL (which many consider theft).


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

gypsysue said:


> I had no idea an older simple-electronic thing like that would be such a power leech. :dunno: People on the grid seldom think about the nickel-and-dime stuff running their power bills up, slowly but surely.


Most all of the electronics now days run of external or internal transformers. The ones plugged in the outlet are obvious but inside radios or other electronics they are most often always connected and you only switch the DC power side. An electrician friend once told me that where there are many such un-switched transformers on one power leg they can set up a resonance and draw much higher amperage than house wires are rated. Even little LED's can leach some power and when you're off grid every little thing must be taken into account.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

mosquitomountainman said:


> Banking on hyperinflation is speculation at best. I could tell lots of stories of people who borrowed to buy land, homes, equipment and all kinds of other things banking on the belief that "this, that or the other" would happen in the future. When it didn't pan out they lost everything. The rule of thumb is to never use money you can't do without for speculation on anything!
> 
> I've seen farmers mortgae their land to buy more land because land prices were skyrocketing and there seemed to be no end in sight. The local bankers actually went to their homes and talked them into taking out loans using the equity in their land for down payments. Two years later the bottom fell out and almost every one of those farmers went bankrupt. We have neighbors who bought land when prices were going up here and expected to make a killing. Wrong!!! They actually mortgaged their homes to get loans and now have serious financial problems because of the current recession.
> 
> ...


All of what you have said is why I posted #50 on this thread and I did it in the most politically correct way I could, being careful not to step on toes because like you I've seen and studied what debt can do and I know the immediate and long term outstanding result of being debt free, THANK GOD!!!


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

Davarm, we're working on the garden. Last year was awful weather wise, and hardly anything ripened and some things did not even come up. We have planted some juvenile fruit trees and blueberry bushes, and although they will not produce for another years or so and even then in limited quantities, it was important to me to have these started. 

Oregon, our area near Mt. Hood, has a lot of wild berries, including the invasive, but useful, Himalayan blackberry, and Hood River is a nice drive away in fall for cull apples and pears (averging .40 cents a pound). We were up at Hood River a couple of years ago and bought corn 5 ears for $1.00!! So for what we have not been able to produce down here, we can get super cheap and fresh, or in the case of the berries, free.

I am looking forward to a nice warm summer so we can have some things actually come to fruition. Three years in a row we have tried corn and it has been so chilly that it just did not do well. I am wanting this more than anything. Last year we got potatoes, but they were small and mealy, and we were finding it had some sort of worm/larvae, so we had to toss them. We forgot to dust the starts before we planted, although as mealy as they were, they would have been unpalatable anyways.

We have expanded our area, cut back the chickens, but, since we had such a rough time last year, we are going to take it small to learn instead of wasting a whole bunch of seeds. We'll try the square foot gardening method and see how much better this works for us, to manage and then if things go well, we'll step it up for the following summer.


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

mosquitomountainman said:


> Banking on hyperinflation is speculation at best. I could tell lots of stories of people who borrowed to buy land, homes, equipment and all kinds of other things banking on the belief that "this, that or the other" would happen in the future. When it didn't pan out they lost everything. The rule of thumb is to never use money you can't do without for speculation on anything!


A rule of thumb has to be anchored in a social environment. Not using money you need in order to speculate is a good rule in our time and place at the present. Notice the thread title - "Complete Economic Meltdown." When the environment changes so do the rules.



> Be careful of debt. What Bobbbbbbbb is saying is pure speculation. He's banking on hyperinflation and/or TEOTWAWKI.


Again, did you miss the thread title? Look, what I wrote was common strategy back in the 70s and early 80s when inflation was only in the low to mid teens. Buy a house, back then, for $40,000, borrow $30,000, hold it for 12 months, and the price, due to inflation, jumped up to $46,000. Pay back the $30,000 loan. Rinse and repeat.

I'm not telling people to do anything today, rather I'm telling them that the tried and true strategies that some are espousing won't work in a high inflation environment that is swirling around a "complete economic meltdown." If you hold all your wealth in cash and in assets which don't hold their value in an inflationary economy, then every year your wealth will decrease as inflation robs you. Period.



> I'd be careful of this idea that there will be no repossessions in the event the SHTF. First, it will depend on how serious it is.


What part of "Complete Economic Meltdown" is unclear? Complete means everything falls apart. Complete Economic Meltdown is different from "Economic Hardship" and "Partial Collapse" and "Banking Crisis" or "Mortgage Crisis" - complete means complete, which means everything falls apart.


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## akgirl (Feb 22, 2012)

Roslyn said:


> If you really want to learn the insanity that is our banking and monetary systems then check out the Zeitgeist movies. Peter Joseph does a great job teaching how money and banking works in really easy to understand terms.
> 
> It's amazing how insane it is. Every little penny in your pocket or that jar on the shelf is only on LOAN and you owe interest!!!
> 
> ...


Zeitgeist is an excellent choice of information. I recommend it highly to everyone I know and to those still in the dark-understanding how their system works is the only to break free of it. Collapse by design.


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## gatorglockman (Sep 9, 2011)

My take may be a little diff than others....

1. Yep, our foolish and corrupt excuse for leadership has dug us a dung hole of debt with no immediate plan to fix.
2. So has most of the rest of the civilized worlds government....they are in worse shape than the US for the most part.

If the domino effect of debt and collapse starts....and nation after nation defaults, surely the current global economy will collapse and we will have a major problem. How/when the do-over button and debt forgiveness occurs is anybody's guess, but it will likely have to happen.

I think all rules of ownership, rule of law and and our paradigm of order shall surely be challenged. Being debt free may be an advantage...but....then again....I am not sure it will ultimately make a real difference in the total melt down.

Squatters, changes in laws/rules and raw tenacity may be enough...if you are prepared and ready to rumble.

Again....not saying this is the answer, etc....but I am saying that structure as we know it, a piece of paper saying "I own it", etc may not hold currency in a new world order. Hope this makes sense.


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## HoppeEL4 (Dec 29, 2010)

gatorglockman, think people will survive by being a squatter in abandoned places? I suppose my question is will owners of property that rent or lease, such as what we are currently in, will these owners be likely to simply abandon things that they'd rather not deal with in tough times? This question has come to mind often for us, if SHTF will this owner even bother collecting any rents if he has enough troubles trying to stay afloat himself, or would he be willing to make some trades for staying (food...supplies, work)?


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## gatorglockman (Sep 9, 2011)

HoppeEL4 said:


> gatorglockman, think people will survive by being a squatter in abandoned places? I suppose my question is will owners of property that rent or lease, such as what we are currently in, will these owners be likely to simply abandon things that they'd rather not deal with in tough times? This question has come to mind often for us, if SHTF will this owner even bother collecting any rents if he has enough troubles trying to stay afloat himself, or would he be willing to make some trades for staying (food...supplies, work)?


Exactly...or in the case of those with mortgages like me...if banks default and collapse, etc...employees of the banks have no job...who is going to force the hand of bank foreclosure, etc or even keep records to process your mortgage payments?

I am not saying debt free is bad, etc....it is awesome and right! I am just saying, many of those who are not....may have options pending the level of collapse. Now at some point, restoration may occur and restructuring may happen. Just throwing my spin.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

gatorglockman said:


> Exactly...or in the case of those with mortgages like me...if banks default and collapse, etc...employees of the banks have no job...who is going to force the hand of bank foreclosure, etc or even keep records to process your mortgage payments?
> 
> I am not saying debt free is bad, etc....it is awesome and right! I am just saying, many of those who are not....may have options pending the level of collapse. Now at some point, restoration may occur and restructuring may happen. Just throwing my spin.


My big fear for those who have mortgages and other large debts is that since debt has become a commodity that is bought and sold, the debts may be sold to say, China(for the purpose of this discussion). At that point they can change the terms of payment to just about whatever they want to and forclose on homes and seize homes to pay unsecured debt.

I am no economist and have no formal education and little experience in finance so this may be a totally irrational fear, but it is a possible scenario for the future.

My imagination can tend to run overtime and hopefully a lot of my fears will be totally invalid.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Look Back*



Davarm said:


> My big fear for those who have mortgages and other large debts is that since debt has become a commodity that is bought and sold, the debts may be sold to say, China(for the purpose of this discussion). At that point they can change the terms of payment to just about whatever they want to and forclose on homes and seize homes to pay unsecured debt.
> 
> I am no economist and have no formal education and little experience in finance so this may be a totally irrational fear, but it is a possible scenario for the future.
> 
> My imagination can tend to run overtime and hopefully a lot of my fears will be totally invalid.


Banks will sell their paper to those who still have the means to purchase it.

This is what they did during the last depression.

In a hyperinflation situation, you may use your devalued currency to pay off your morgage.

To do this , you need some gold to convert into currency now and then you can sell a portion of it when the price of gold soars due to hyperinflation.


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## k0xxx (Oct 27, 2011)

BillM said:


> ...In a hyperinflation situation, you may use your devalued currency to pay off your morgage...


Maybe. If we do see hyperinflation, I would not be surprised to see politicians pass a law saying that loan balances are adjusted to the inflationary rate. Even during hyperinflation banks would have the money to buy... er, to lobby politicians. Politicians always tend to pass laws to protect their owners/donors.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

k0xxx said:


> Maybe. If we do see hyperinflation, I would not be surprised to see politicians pass a law saying that loan balances are adjusted to the inflationary rate. Even during hyperinflation banks would have the money to buy... er, to lobby politicians. Politicians always tend to pass laws to protect their owners/donors.


There are a lot of things that COULD happen but if politicians took that route then there would be no standard for justice financially and they could just as easily confiscate all your wealth. Going down this road is a Pandoras box and there isnt much value in even discussing the possibilities. I know they have changed them in the past but contracts are supposed to be set in stone and not amendable by a single party.


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## partdeux (Aug 3, 2011)

Davarm said:


> I am no economist and have no formal education and little experience in finance so this may be a totally irrational fear, but it is a possible scenario for the future.


this article does a good job articulating what is happening with the world's macro economies.


> 2012 is proving to be the 'Year of the Central Bank'. It is an exciting celebration of all the wonderful maneuvers central banks can employ to keep the system from falling apart. Western central banks have gone into complete overdrive since last November, convening, colluding and printing their way out of the mess that is the Eurozone. The scale and frequency of their maneuvering seems to increase with every passing week, and speaks to the desperate fragility that continues to define much of the financial system today.
> 
> *source*


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