# Rioting, looting, and the Shotgun round for defense.



## Moby76065 (Jul 31, 2012)

During a SHTF crisis where rioting and looting occurs the home/land owner needs to understand the options available to deter or defeat attackers.
This youtube shows the various capabilities of different shotgun rounds. Please pay particular attention to the Dragons Breath. I live in a typical neighborhood in a Cul-De-Sac. I have thought about how to turn back a group entering the Cul-De-Sac and warning them that a fight is not in their best interest. I know many will jump on the tactical scenario but my hope is to avoid grabbing the .308 and putting people down. My thought is one or two Dragons Breath rounds fired over a crowd or onto a vehicle to "shock & Awe" potential threats without having to kill them. The Dragons Breath effective rang is 25 yards which is about perfect for my area of concern.


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

MY opinion is if it is worth shooting then it is worth killing. Until that time they may not even know I have a gun. If I was a cop then yeah I"d be intrested in bean bags and rubber buck but I am not anymore. If the guns have to come out it is because I fear for my life, when that occurs the threat will be killed or I will be. If you want to threaten use a sign, a bullhorn, or your mouth. LIke I say that is my opinion I"m sure it will vary greatly.

Great video by the way and it confirms what I suspected about buck and ball loads, I really need to get some of those Aim had some made by centurion I just keep running out of money before they get purchased. wish they had done some 50 yard plus shooting with the flechettes I think they would have shined a bit brighter at the longer range when the darts are stabilized and not still wobbly.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

One advantage to buck shot is that it is likely it will hit areas that are not covered by body armor. If you suspect body armor you can also just aim for the legs.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

The old lead bird shot at distance is great for a less than lethal round. It would sting and then you either have to get em all out or suffer with lead poisoning till you die. Probably not what you had in mind for an immediate deterrent but something to consider. Pretty much forces a would be thief into the hospital where they may be apprehended.


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## IlliniWarrior (Nov 30, 2010)

Moby76065 said:


> During a SHTF crisis where rioting and looting occurs the home/land owner needs to understand the options available to deter or defeat attackers.
> This youtube shows the various capabilities of different shotgun rounds. Please pay particular attention to the Dragons Breath. I live in a typical neighborhood in a Cul-De-Sac. I have thought about how to turn back a group entering the Cul-De-Sac and warning them that a fight is not in their best interest. I know many will jump on the tactical scenario but my hope is to avoid grabbing the .308 and putting people down. My thought is one or two Dragons Breath rounds fired over a crowd or onto a vehicle to "shock & Awe" potential threats without having to kill them. The Dragons Breath effective rang is 25 yards which is about perfect for my area of concern.


the minute you shoot ... Dragon's Breath or 00buck .... somebody in the opposing group is going to fire back and all h*ll is going to break loose ..... you better have plenty of backup while you replace those 2 rounds you basically wasted


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

In Texas, firing a handgun/rifle/shotgun is considered the use of deadly force. There is no distinction in the law for "non lethal" or "less than lethal". If the situation calls for the use of deadly force, then use it. The dead/wounded at the front will slow the advance of the rest of the crowd at the least, and at best will deter them from presenting a further threat.

This sort of boutique ammo is a waste of money. I've seen "dragon's breath" fired in person and I was not impressed.


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## WatchUr6 (May 18, 2012)

No warning shots period! If I'm shooting, I'm not wasting any ammo.


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## horseman09 (Mar 2, 2010)

Remember the terrible Katrina hospital personnel prosecution fiasco? Docs and nurses were faced with trying to care for terminal patients with no power, no lights, no water no help and no way to administer appropriate meds. Rather than allowing them to suffer, they administered available meds sufficient to ease their suffering.

These were extraordinary times requiring extraordinary measures. Yet later, many of these compasionate people were prosecuted using "normal" medical/legal standards. So far as I know, all were exhonerated, but you can bet their lives were hell in the mean time.

With that in mind, if you kill X number of (unarmed?) threatening people in extraordinary times, are you prepared to go to prison for murder a year or two later after being convicted by ordinary legal standards when things get back to normal?

We have to do what we have to do to protect our families, but if we have a choice, perhaps it's better to put a few .22 rounds in some bad guys guts at and let them hobble away to die somewhere else rather than have a dozen corpses in your yard. Speaking of corpses in your yard, whatcha gonna do with them?

Remember watching clips of riot police firing into crowds? The rioters are pretty brave until the bullets start flying -- then they disperse pretty fast. Better yet, IMHO, if some shock and awe fired above their heads makes them run, that is a win/win situation. The threat is removed, no corpses in your yard to try to dispose of and no prison time (or worse).


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

In case you're interested.
http://www.antipersonnel.net/sdllc/005.html
Fletchettes are $2.70/round in bulk. I have ordered from these folks and do recommend them.


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## truecarnage (Apr 25, 2010)

Better check your local laws first!
All these items are a federal firearms violation where I live and just having the fletchets can be construed as intent.
I can buy brass Knuckles , switch blades, fletchets, drop in auto sears Etc. But dont get caught with any of that stuff unless you have about 20 years free time on your hands.


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## Immolatus (Feb 20, 2011)

This guy has some much more 'fun' videos.
I couldnt find the exact one, but he had one a few years back of him using all kinds of 'exotic' shotgun shells that he had made himself.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

Marcus said:


> In case you're interested.
> http://www.antipersonnel.net/sdllc/005.html
> Fletchettes are $2.70/round in bulk. I have ordered from these folks and do recommend them.


I wish that I could purchase something like that around here ...


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## GrinnanBarrett (Aug 31, 2012)

One very important thing to know about Dragons Breath shells is they can really mess up your barrel when you shoot them. I agree with many of the posters and say don't try to scare anyone. Many of them can shoot back. GB


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## IlliniWarrior (Nov 30, 2010)

Marcus said:


> In case you're interested.
> http://www.antipersonnel.net/sdllc/005.html
> Fletchettes are $2.70/round in bulk. I have ordered from these folks and do recommend them.


developed for the military .... never proved to be effective compared to buckshot ... it's only value would be as ballistic shrapnel ...


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

truecarnage said:


> Better check your local laws first!
> All these items are a federal firearms violation where I live and just having the fletchets can be construed as intent.
> I can buy brass Knuckles , switch blades, fletchets, drop in auto sears Etc. But dont get caught with any of that stuff unless you have about 20 years free time on your hands.


Unless made and registered prior to May 19, 1986, you cannot do so legally.*

*some exceptions apply


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## Boomy (Mar 17, 2012)

zombieresponder said:


> Unless made and registered prior to May 19, 1986, you cannot do so legally.*
> 
> *some exceptions apply


Like possessing a Class 3 Federal Stamp? I know guys who have 'em. Just a process and some fees.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

Boomy said:


> Like possessing a Class 3 Federal Stamp? I know guys who have 'em. Just a process and some fees.


That would mean it was made and registered prior to May 19, 1986. After that date, no new machineguns could legally be made for sale to civilians. If it was made/registered prior to that date, it's a relatively simple matter of filling out a form 4 and some other paperwork, plus a $200 tax, to legally own one.

I wish the ATF would hurry up and approve the form 3 transfer of my suppressor to the dealer so I can get the form 4 paperwork going. It's probably gonna be the end of next year before I get my hands on it at this rate.


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## Startingout-Blair (Aug 28, 2012)

It is my understanding (and I could be wrong...I am wrong a lit if the time,just ask my soon-to-be ex-wife), but once you have a class 3 license, you have basically given the ATF permission to come and legally search your home at any time under the pretense that they are ensuring you did not illegally resell your licensed items (machine gun, silencer, etc).


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## DJgang (Apr 10, 2011)

Startingout-Blair said:


> It is my understanding (and I could be wrong...I am wrong a lit if the time,just ask my soon-to-be ex-wife), but once you have a class 3 license, you have basically given the ATF permission to come and legally search your home at any time under the pretense that they are ensuring you did not illegally resell your licensed items (machine gun, silencer, etc).


Yep, my boys keep wanting us to get class 3 so they can have fun and spend money and blah blah blah....but I do not care at all to be on THAT list. No sir ree....no feds ... nope, nada.....

I guess we better stop talking about this on this forum, boss will close it down.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

Startingout-Blair said:


> It is my understanding (and I could be wrong...I am wrong a lit if the time,just ask my soon-to-be ex-wife), but once you have a class 3 license, you have basically given the ATF permission to come and legally search your home at any time under the pretense that they are ensuring you did not illegally resell your licensed items (machine gun, silencer, etc).


Go to the BATF website and search out the answer yourself. From what I have read, they can demand that you produce the firearm, but they can't just kick your door in and search in the manner you are suggesting(legally anyway). It's really no different than having a C&R FFL.

There is no "class three license", unless you're referring to a dealer or manufacturing license. Each item requires individual paperwork and a $200 tax to be paid(with the exception of the AOW category, which is a $5 tax).


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

A guy started a wildfire this year with a shotgun and Dragons Breath(or something similar). It burned thousands of acres of land. I believe he pled guilty but I don't remember his sentence(seems like a $3 million fine and some jail time).


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

hiwall said:


> A guy started a wildfire this year with a shotgun and Dragons Breath(or something similar). It burned thousands of acres of land. I believe he pled guilty but I don't remember his sentence(seems like a $3 million fine and some jail time).


Unfortunately ALL the idiots are NOT on the Anti Gun side. It would be much easier to fight em if no idiots ever bought guns, went out in public or reproduced.


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## fedorthedog (Apr 14, 2011)

Start with 25 rounds as fast as possible from the 22 hip level at the group, drop that and pick up the Ar and go to work on the hard core who have stayed around.


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## Gians (Nov 8, 2012)

jsriley5 said:


> MY opinion is if it is worth shooting then it is worth killing. Until that time they may not even know I have a gun. If I was a cop then yeah I"d be intrested in bean bags and rubber buck but I am not anymore. If the guns have to come out it is because I fear for my life, when that occurs the threat will be killed or I will be. If you want to threaten use a sign, a bullhorn, or your mouth. LIke I say that is my opinion I"m sure it will vary greatly.
> 
> ...


 I agree, I was taught many years ago, don't pull a gun unless you plan on using it, no warning shots or trying to wound, don't let anyone get within arms reach of you, if you have to shoot, shoot to kill..otherwise don't pull a gun out. I hope the movement and it's knowledge grows to the point where guns won't be necessary except for extreme circumstances. Americans pull together more often than not...hope it stays that way.


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## hilljen (Nov 28, 2012)

1. Take the time to do the deterrent stuff - make your cul de sac look a lot less inviting than someone else's. Every battle you don't have to fight is one you win. Don't forget to consider the back yards - looters don't always choose to take the "front door".

2. If you draw your weapon and shoot, shoot to kill. Aim to maim is a fantasy strategy that usually ends in disaster in reality.

3. Nothing will slow a mob faster than seeing several of the leaders or folks up front go down with bloody injuries. Be prepared to make it easy for them to leave in the direction you choose and hard to come running panicked into your cds to take cover within. Scared, cornered people can be very dangerous.

4. Regarding what to do with the bodies, leave them there for advertising purposes. If need be, post an accompanying sign "Looters NOT welcome here". Burn the body if you have to for biological purposes, but leave the scorched bones where they fell at the entrance to the cds. This is not forever, you can move it later when things settle down.

5.Are there any like minded folks there? In your free time now, think about the best vantage points to deter dangerous intruders or to drop them from behind(plan clear lines of fire, etc.) if they get the jump on you. Shots fired simultaneously from multiple locations makes it hard to figure out who is shooting at you. Have a prearranged "line of demarcation" such as the minute they pass this mailbox or whatever.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

Any use of a firearm is going to be considered the use of deadly force.

If your testimony in court was that you shot to wound and the person you shot was killed, you would have a hard time proving that the use of deadly force was justified. 
By your own admission you only thought it nesicary to wound him !

If you fire a warning shot because you have a treaspasser, and your pardner thinks you have fired at him because he has done somthing that made him a deadly threat and he shoots the treaspasser, you both could be charged with manslaughter.

Leave off the warning shots and shots to wound.

You only shoot to stop the aggression and you stop when the aggression no longer threatens your safety.

The law is never going to go away. It will always come back to bite you eventually.


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