# Bugging out to where? From what?



## MRGUMBY (Nov 3, 2011)

Talking about BOV's in other threads leads me to think quite a bit.

How many people know where they will go?
How many have a route planned out?

I see the 4X4 seems to be pretty standard for a BOV...but how much off road can there actually be?

Also, WHEN does the bug out happen? For someone who waits till there is martial law and weapons fire in the streets...kinda too late, no?


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

Bugging out in a normal size vehicle will *only* be possible when the bulk of the population hasnt figured out SHTF is happening yet.

One example how this _ could _happen might be :

It's 1 am and you just figured out from the latest report that infections in mexico city (from whichever bug is in the maintream news right now) are up to 10,000 w/ 1000 deaths. This coming from only 100 infections and 5 deaths in less than a week.

_That tells you, its deadly and fast and coming to your neighborhood soon.._

.. so you bug out in the middle of the night,.... it will be many hours perhaps several days, before the maintsream panics and absorbs whats going on. 
But you dont want to take the chance that they will catch on by morning and leave NOW.
You may even have some time to fill up your truck with sacks of rice...

You can find such Intel here BTW (even that post is still not a sticky yet I dont know, ????):
http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f2/website-pandemic-tracking-14176/

But short of a "lucky" early start like that,... I think it will be basically impossible, for anyone living in an urban area or even a suburban area for that matter...to get out to a BOL "in the country"

Think about how even a single accident can cause a huge jam in a normal environment..

Then add 10 times the cars and you dont even _need_ an accident and u r looking at _multiday_ traffic jams where people will have to abandon their vehicles and the preps within(!)

My recommendation is:

Unless you can be reasonably SURE you are beating the crowds to the roads... *stay*..at least then you have your preps, even if you have a nice BOL elsewhere... because being stuck in a jam in the middle of thousands of people will be veyr dangerous.. and a car/truck in the middle of a jam are even less defensible than even a small apartment.
That situation could be a death sentence.

Another solution is a motorcycle, but this cuts down on the amount of preps you can carry...and for folks with small children its a non starter.

But it may be the only way to get to your BOL.

(Hoofing it ,might be deadly since it takes long.. and that might just be long enough for the situation to go into phase 2... this will make long term travel on foot very hazordous and impractical for all but the fittest and best armed.. )

PS: I am sure this will be yet another example, of a sound and fact based operational analysis, not gathering "likes" or attention as much, as some mere opinion pieces w/ little sound analysis often tend to get.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

I know exactly where I'm going and multiple routes to get there. Most of the routes are paved, but some are just dirt and get kinda nasty when it rains. The last leg is all dirt and rock, and can get really hard to traverse if rain washes soil away in certain spots. A car isn't going to get in just because of the ground clearance required to get through some sections. A good driver can make it in something with slightly more ground clearance, but he/she will be stacking stuff in holes/dropoffs to avoid getting hung up.

The above assumes the paved roads will be clear of vehicles and other obstructions. If they aren't, 4wd might be needed to get through the ditches/median, or at the very least, more ground clearance than the average sedan. It might also be necessary to push/pull vehicles out of the way. That's not happening with a typical passenger car. It's not just about going offroad, but more about the extra capability of the vehicle itself.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

> I know exactly where I'm going and multiple routes to get there. Most of the routes are paved, but some are just dirt and get kinda nasty when it rains. The last leg is all dirt and rock, and can get really hard to traverse if rain washes soil away in certain spots. A car isn't going to get in just because of the ground clearance required to get through some sections.


My situation exactly. My BOL is safe, secure and semi-prepped. I have several ways to get there and a vehicle capable of going cross country if need be. I also have a large brush guard in order to push vehicles out of the way and am looking at a winch for various purposes as well.

As far as when to go, you have three options. (1) Go immediately. This gives you the best chance of getting there with the least amount of obstacles. (2) Wait until the S really hits the fan. This could result in a whole lot of hazards and greatly reduce your chance of successfully bugging out. (3) Bug in until after things began to settle back down. Then if you have to go; go.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

Reconing routes for bugout is a must in my opinion. Also recon SEVERAL alternate routes. Recon does not mean drive down once. Practice makes perfect. I would make it a point to drive my routes at different times of the day, in different weather, and in different traffic conditions. Enough foresight to beat the crowds is imperative in my opinion. All is situational dependent, but, after shtf I would be veru wary of roads. Roads are for people who like to be ambushed. If possible recon an overland route as well in case you are forced into that decision. You never know what you will have to drive down when forced off your route. Better to have 4*4 and not need it than need it and not have it.


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## emilnon (May 8, 2012)

BlueZ said:


> Bugging out in a normal size vehicle will only be possible when the bulk of the population hasnt figured out SHTF is happening yet.
> 
> One example how this could happen might be :
> 
> ...


Thanks for (re)posting that link- I got it bookmarked now


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

Your very welcome Sir ...


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## emilnon (May 8, 2012)

BlueZ said:


> Your very welcome Sir ...


Ahem, that's "Ma'am"


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## RoadRash (Sep 29, 2010)

I have 4 routes to take, i think I can have trailer loaded in 35 minutes timed my self a few weeks ago and a 45 drive with normal traffic 1 4x4 1 suv plus 3 motor cycles I will not be stuck or limited to get to BOL unless all bridges taken out I will add 45 minutes to cross in shallow area that is rocky about 18'' deep water ........Hey 2 train bridges i can take them if I had to.


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

Great plans fellas!

every one in this thread has made some good points.

Another consideration:

dont forget getting on the road early is key.
Its possible to push 2 cars, maybe 3, maybe even 10, but hundreds no...and some of those, whose cars being pushed out of the way may have armed family fathers on board...


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## prep4life (Jul 16, 2010)

we moved here to our bol last year. we aren't going anywhere. 
Anyone looking for a bol, we are talking to people about this now. We need more people to join us WTSHTF. We're in southern Missouri. Send me a PM if you think you'd like to consider it.


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

"when to leave" is common sense a lot of times... hurricane, wildfire, reports of riots, chem spill, etc. 

Sometimes it is preference. In a terror or food shortage incident I do not want to be anywhere near a city if I can help it. There are too many physical and personal vulnerabilities.

"where to go" shouldn't be a life decision--meaning you should already have shelter prepared for designated areas. The hexayurt is affordable and portable, and your designated areas should be out of sight/reasonably defensible. Long term water access is my primary concerns--and one thing that recently came to mind was the many water sampling wells in my area. They are usually owned/maintained by the state. Most have water quality/depth records... sometimes for decades. Some are remote and could be accessed with prepared equipment. Rivers, reservoirs and other obvious bodies of if water will be attractive to the general public.


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## SlobberToofTigger (Dec 27, 2011)

I believe the points posted so far are all well made and researched. Even yours BlueZ though you seem to have a low opinion of your own thinking&#8230; Grin. One of the interesting things about all disasters is that they are very personal, and so each person's ability to do whatever they have planned or in the case of most people just do, their results will vary.

I am in the interesting position of being able to test my plans for evacuation against reality. Or to put it another way I get to evacuate every few years due to hurricanes. Here are the results of years of experience. The most obvious one is if you get out early then evacuation is quite easy and is in many ways no different than going on vacation. Lots of packing, little traffic, and plenty of options as to where to go. If you leave very late (a few hours before the hurricane hits) you still have lots of packing and very little traffic if any but your options on where to go are limited. And of course if you leave any time in-between those two you are going to sit in your car for what will seem to be the remainder of your life and in a real disaster it will probably be the remainder of your life.

A few other interesting things I have learned. Go to gas stations after about 2am. Most of them in and around large cities get refueled about that time or later and so even if they were out of gas during the day they will have fuel for a while after about 2am. The cheap food always goes first in a grocery store. So make sure to buy any inexpensive items way before a disaster. They most expensive items will be on the store shelves for quite a while.

A part of my job is disaster planning for my organization (think large global org) so I have access to commercial notification services that study and predict upcoming disasters as well as report on current ones. Or to put it another way if "S" is on the way I have a pretty good idea it is coming. And of course I will share here so that you guys can get your buns out of dodge&#8230;

For a public version of some of the private Emergency and Disaster Response services I have access to check out this link:
http://hisz.rsoe.hu/alertmap/index2.php?area=usa


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Everyone's bug-out plan is a little different. I'm in a rural area already but on a "community" well so a grid down situation equals bug-out time for me. If its raining(rare but then I could save the rain water) it would be bad for me(dirt roads). Several BOL's picked out in different directions and distances.


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

Great link slobber


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## MRGUMBY (Nov 3, 2011)

It might be helpful to come up with a system to understand what each person is thinking on the forum.
I would understand where someone was coming from more if I knew they were an apartment dweller who's BOL was a tent in the national forest.

The next guy is 6 miles from a city like Austin, TX with a motor home who plans on running to the desert.

I wish there was a quick way to know city/country/suburb___Southern/Northern/Middle___own BOL land/BOL is national forest/BOL is going to be taken at gunpoint____BOV is my feet/BOV is a cycle/BOV is a deuce and a half/BOV is motor home...etc etc.
This would be very helpful to know at a glance.


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

MRGUMBY: Your right we all look at it form a different angle.

One solution I think is when we make a comment to state what environement we envision coming out of.
especially if it is distinct form the majority of americans.

My suggestion would be to presuppose someone is urban and/or suburban unless stated otherwise.
That is what I have been doing however it of course does not apply to everyone as we have a large number of rural folks on here as well.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

> I wish there was a quick way to know city/country/suburb___Southern/Northern/Middle___own BOL land/BOL is national forest/BOL is going to be taken at gunpoint____BOV is my feet/BOV is a cycle/BOV is a deuce and a half/BOV is motor home...etc etc. This would be very helpful to know at a glance.


That would be very helpful for planning, but horrible for OPSEC.


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

Sentry18 said:


> That would be very helpful for planning, but horrible for OPSEC.


haha, almost my exact response. We can apply what we read to our specific situations without needing location particulars.

But if someone wants help for their specific situation they can give their scenario. This group is very helpful.


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## SlobberToofTigger (Dec 27, 2011)

Sentry18 said:


> That would be very helpful for planning, but horrible for OPSEC.


Therein lies the problem. At what point do our discussions become so specific that it becomes easy to identify the actual person down to their physical location. At the moment, most folks have some protection in that 95% of the people on here who would like to know who they are, do not have the technical acumen to do so. But no one should assume they cannot be located while posting to a public forum. It is relatively easy to dump the user base and server logs of any public forum or use any of the other tricks of the trade to just have each users computer tell you where it is...

Obviously if you are computer/security savvy you can take precautions but as all of my customers adversaries have discovered those are not fool proof.


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## MRGUMBY (Nov 3, 2011)

Sentry18 said:


> That would be very helpful for planning, but horrible for OPSEC.


:ignore:

It sure could be if someone new you off the board.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

This is one of the biggest thread types here on the board (and many other boards similar to this one) - get outta town or stay home.

My rule-of-thumb is, if your home-location is compromised, you will have to BugOut. What consists of being compromised? A train-wreck nearby spewing fuel, chemicals and fire and such. A nuclear-plant going critical. A forest fire / field fire that is licking your doorstep. A slow flood where the water is caressing your property line. A mud-slide seperating you from your preps. A hurricane or tornado and your home-location isn't hardened against those kinds of winds and rain. There are other reasons as well, but, to me those are the best examples.

You then need to use some kind of satellite imaging (GoogleMaps, GoogleEarth, etc) to plot routes to and from your work and home. Use StreetView to look closer at possible problems. Then you will have to put your real time to the routes. Take a bicycle. Take a walk. Ride a motorbike. Drive a car. Drive a truck. Take a quad. Look at every single part of the route as being a potential problem and figure out what you need to do to circumvent that potential problem.

I personally would not want to BugOut if it is just a killer flu-bug, I would want to shutter myself inside my home where the possibility of the airborne annoyance will have a hard time reaching me. I prep so that I don't have to leave my house if I don't want to, but, I plan on having a second (or third or forth) location to reach if there is any reason why I cannot stay at home.


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## DJgang (Apr 10, 2011)

I guess I'm confused. 

Seems to me different situations would warrant different bug out locations, etc. How can we be prepared for every situation?

(disclaimer: I am more talking out loud here, to myself as well for sake of conversation and clarity on everyone part)

Nuclear war: your bug out location could be no better off.
You could not get there at all: tornado damaged paths

I don't know. I think that I'm sensing more folks have BOL who are in more populated areas? Correct? 

I would like to bug out to our lake house for the simple fact: water! However, I don't want to move preps there because what if I can't get there and end up needing preps at my home?

Now if you are elbow to rear end in the city with people everywhere, I understand wanting to go somewhere. Is is the case with everyone here talking about locations? God, what if you can't get there!!!! :eyebulge:

I don't know what to prep for as in bugging out except in a vehicle, we do have packs and I was thinking we could head further up on our mountain, but I've not made a exact location. Should I? 

Anyway, reading and learning.....


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

(not at DJ)

OPSEC reared its ugly head again..(in this case with a fear that someone might plunder your preps.)...

Come on fellas!

Do you seriously think someone reading this board will seek you out, in SHTF to plunder your preps???
*We dont all live with in a block of each other.*

Even if it *<was>* routinely possible for viewers to pinpoint one's exact location from threads (how??)to *such an exact fidelity *as to make a SHTF plunder run feasible (which is an absurd notion in itself, given no one publishes addresses) 95% of people on this board live way too far from each other to be able to get here during a SHTF.

On top of that, even if you know this location exact enough to justify a trip you gonna drive 50, 100, 1000? miles post SHTF, over certainly jammed roads, with perhaps the occasional downed bridge, perhaps remnants of the law maybe stopping you, or road blocks from locals stopping you for plunder, or exposing yourself to whatever caused the SHTF in the first place (!), to come here and plunder my or anyones preps??

*Use logic*: to steal someones preps you need a vehicle and fuel and large and well armed party to forcibly take preps and *defend them on the way back*.. For you to be in a positon to spend fuel and Ammo and men like that, _just for the chance_ at stealing someone elses preps, your resources are certainly *waaay better than theirs* and the pay off will almost certainly *be way less than what you spend * to get it.


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

I have the luck/planning to be rural so The first plan for me is to bug in. But due to not havng a crystal ball to tell me what is coming I do have plans for Bugging out. I don't have especially prepared locations in a four cardinal directions in case but if I"m bugging out I know I"m going to have to go and make my way. Even though I"m not really foot mobile this all started years ago when I was and habit dies hard so I start with all I can reasonable fit into a large rucksack that will allow me to survive (and packs for all others figured to be with me) Then thers the bike the pack/s go on the bike and additional stuff is added to the bike. the Bike is with the four wheelers which are fully stocked with room for the base pack to go on em. The ATV /s go on a trialer that is loaded with more stuff and connected to a truck/suv that is further loaded with preps. All of that is at the house I intend to stay in. So I have to leave ideally I take the most being the truck with trailer if there is a break down or an impasse then it's the atv if that isn't possible you step down to a bike if thats not doable then it's LPC and the minimum and even the pack is backed up by a fanny pack and coat/vest pockets full of goods. And of course that is backed up by a head full of knowledge that will allow if time and circumstances permit you to recreate the stuff that you have had to leave behind. Nobody except the foolhardy base their plan on a single BOB pack it should all be in layers with the BOB being more of a last resort than a first off plan of action. And my first off plan is to get home the vehicles carry Get home bags rather than bug out bags I am rarely more than 100 miles from home and so try to carry what I will need to get home in say ten to fifteen days. (I can barely walk so 10 in a long day and most of the night is actually generous rather than minimal). once home I can decide what direction to jump from there, but the ploan is to stay put beef up defenses put out the op/lp make sure the solar is up and going and concealed as much as posible. Sand bag bunker for the genny is built to control excess noise and if coms are available (working on it) start networking/checking on family etc. 

Can you tell prepping is my favorite subject I get plum windy when I get started. Sorry !


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

> OPSEC reared its ugly head again


OPSEC is not about fear of someone stealing your preps, it's about an overall mindset and attitude of not opening yourself up to be a victim.



> Even if it <was> routinely possible for viewers to pinpoint one's exact location from threads (how??)


And it's very easy to find someones location off of a forum if you have the technical know-how. For example I could post something that you have to click a link to see where you are redirected to my own website, now I have your IP address and mac address. I can post a link for something you have to download, like a book or a survival manual, that when opened places a trojan on your PC that sends me all available personal data. You would be AMAZED at what my LEO Computer Techs can do and what info they can obtain, and they are following the rules. Imagine what someone with the same skill and no code of conduct could do.

As an LEO a common theme I find amongst victims of crime is that they did not expect to be victims of crime (nor did they take enough precautions to avoid becoming victims). I don't have a common theme to offer amongst people with good OPSEC, because they are rarely ever in need of the police.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

Sentry is right;

Being a member on this forum leaves a permanent cyber trail right to your door. So beware of what you talk about. There are all of your personal records that are in some computer memory somewhere. It will contain everything about you back to about the mid 80's. If you use the wrong sequence of words it will be flagged and then sent for review by one of the federal agencies. 

There are probably even private parties that have the software to do this.

This includes all text messages, voice phone calls, E-mails, ETC. anything that goes over wires.


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## Tribal Warlord Thug (Jan 27, 2009)

we decided tShtF already in the bigger cities so we decide to buy and move out to our BOL before the sheeple decided they needed our stuff because they were to stupid to understand what is happening around them  ,and the excuse of OPSEC is something that i find as just that. if you are stupid enough to post yer exact location then i can see the worry of it....... lots of 'private party' software to track anyone online.....if you have the money, it's easy to track each one of you........any way if you worry about OPSEC then stay offline..period.....i think its a good excuse to be able to say 'i am this xxxx....keyboard commandos and wanna-bes can talk the talk......i walk the walk and have pics to prove it...LMAO :lolsmash:


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

Sure a trojan will do it..
But that danger exist for any interaction on the internet and its not a trivial thing to do.

as for the IP address its not much of na address.
Even for the majoroity of us who dont use VPN it may or it may not lead you to the same tonw.
I sometimes check my IP address with locator and is it close.
Sometimes its 100 miles away depending on form where i post.

Short of posting your exact address or an attack by virus, no one is going to figure out where you live , even the site admins who can see ypourt IP address cannot do it.

BUt as described beofre EVEN IF ,...then what?

All the the factors mentioned above still apply.

So I am not really worried about anyone finding me from this forum to find my preps for all the reasons listed above and neither should anyone else.

What does concern me though it the _lost opportunuty cost_ .
We all lose if we let fear of paranoid scenarios keep us from properly exhanging helpful information about what matters.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

BlueZ said:


> Sure a trojan will do it..
> But that danger exist for any interaction on the internet and its not a trivial thing to do.
> 
> as for the IP address its not much of na address.
> ...


 BlueZ

When you purchased your computer did you send in the warranty info, Bingo. address.

You are underestimating the ease to identify you from multiple sources. I agree that it's important to communicate without regard for thoughts of review from the overlords. But, the communications can be done in a way to not attract any needed attention. The wording is everything.


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## GrinnanBarrett (Aug 31, 2012)

Ideally you would be living at your BOL but reality is most of us have a drive to get to the place where we plan to retreat. I would not consider a BOL of more than 50 miles from where I live now unless I had a Cessna to get there. For my BOVs we use four wheel drive trucks and SUVs so that if we do have to go off road we can make it. My wife has driven a Jeep or Toyota 4 wheeler for the last 25 years. 

We have all routes planned out and drive each often getting to know the locals each way. If you know the locals getting through their area is a lot easier. You are not the unknown to them. Fear is the unknown. GB


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## Jimmy24 (Apr 20, 2011)

Well, I live at my BOL. And though you may find out where I live, I doubt it. No registrations, my address is a PO Box, a good ways away. I have only county records that show I own the land. My IP address does not have my name attached to it. No utility bills. No mail box with an address on it. VERY RURAL. You can see my BOL from Google Earth no doubt, if you know what you are looking at. And in my neck of the woods, when people, strange people, go to asking questions about where someone lives, they usually get the boot. My dozen or so neighbors that I have mutual agreements with are not much at telling strangers anything too. I am the same for them. 

Oh you may get in the neighborhood, just don’t think you’ll walk/drive up to my place. And then if you do make it up my drive, I either know your vehicle or I don’t. And if I don’t, it would not be smart to get out.

As a friend of mine said a few years back, "who you hiding from?"....

Jimmy


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## musketjim (Dec 7, 2011)

I spend quite a bit of time at my BOL and take family and friends with, but do not live there. Unless I get some solid info to convince them to leave early I am prepared to bug in until I feel it's safe to head to my BOL but it will be tough to get everyone there.


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## SlobberToofTigger (Dec 27, 2011)

musketjim said:


> I spend quite a bit of time at my BOL and take family and friends with, but do not live there. Unless I get some solid info to convince them to leave early I am prepared to bug in until I feel it's safe to head to my BOL but it will be tough to get everyone there.


Same here. There is no way I could support all my bad habits if I tried to live at my BOL all the time... Grin.


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## MRGUMBY (Nov 3, 2011)

BlueZ said:


> *Use logic*: to steal someones preps you need a vehicle and fuel and large and well armed party to forcibly take preps and *defend them on the way back*.. For you to be in a positon to spend fuel and Ammo and men like that, _just for the chance_ at stealing someone elses preps, your resources are certainly *waaay better than theirs* and the pay off will almost certainly *be way less than what you spend * to get it.


I have seen guns out in public twice in the last 12 years. Katrina was the worst.
Granted, no one was starving, but the attitude was really not "steal from thy neighbor" it was more, protect thy neighbor from the rapists and thugs.

I was amazed how fast beefs that had gone on for years before the trouble hit, got squashed when people had to band together to survive.
For the most part, people had to band together to make it...and they _did_!
I think most people talk about making it and pissing on their own little pile, when in fact, without good neighbors, there is no chance of extended life in a true balls-out-no-law-scenario.

My BOL, unless my counter starts clicking, is home. I am lucky enough to live in a rural farming area...but unlucky to be within 30 minutes of a small city.
Dropping a tree to block the road about 8 miles from our village would prevent 99 out of 100 trouble makers. By the time the fuel ran out, they would not pose a threat anymore anyway....so it would be more of a temporary measure.

Overall, in the prepper "community" I see a lot of concentration on guns/ammo/4X4's and toys...and (IMO) not nearly enough on medical and food production long term.
I would rather have a good .22 with a scope and 10,000 rounds...a few goats and 20 or so chickens than the best assault rifle in the world and a case of MRE's. I wish I had a dollar for everytime I have wasted my breath saying that to others.

7 days after the trucks stop rolling, most people have no milk or fresh food.
I think half of prepping is learning how to make it on your own long term.
6K in weapons won't do it. Learning how to raise rabbits, chickens, goats and grow a big garden...can the produce...make cheeses and soap...those skills are every bit as important as being a marksman.

(I am not singling out this forum at all...but more the meets and "classes" I have attended, where the focus seems to be playing soldier. When I mentioned that all the tactics they taught depended on being re-supplied by a standing army/infrastructure that would not be there...the leaders got upset with me.) YMMV


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

Tweto said:


> BlueZ
> 
> When you purchased your computer did you send in the warranty info, Bingo. address.
> 
> .


I enevr bother with sending the warranty info.
And in any event I have moved since then...

We all know its *possible*... but is it _easy and likely_,.. I say no.


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

MRGUMBY said:


> (I am not singling out this forum at all...but more the meets and "classes" I have attended, where the focus seems to be playing soldier. When I mentioned that all the tactics they taught depended on being re-supplied by a standing army/infrastructure that would not be there...the leaders got upset with me.) YMMV


Quoted for truth


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