# SHTF Pressure on Wildlife?



## philjam

In my neighborhood, the big meat item is deer.
Turkey, geese, beaver, groundhog, opossum, raccoon, coyote, fox and feral cat make up the next tier.
Then there are rabbit, squirrel, and all the smaller rodents - muskrat, corn rat, red squirrel, flying squirrel, chipmunk, vole & skunk.

Any bird that comes to a feeder is edible, no matter the size. Crows have a lot of meat. Robins, doves starlings, woodpeckers, and birds of this size, all have plenty of meat. 

Next are fish, amphibians, and reptiles.

Lots of fresh water fish, and turtles, around here. Not so many snakes but if you know where to look..... a six foot long water snake, or a black snake has lots of tasty meat. A 15 pound snapping turtle is a delicacy.

Not too many in the overall population have the what it takes to harvest. But there are enough sharpies to make an impact on local wildlife populations. My neighbors are all like minded.


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## Woody

Hunting was never part of my plan in my area. I figure there are too many who will be out there doing it and game will disappear mighty fast. A few birds perhaps but rabbits, deer and the like will be gone fast. I never thought about the smaller birds though, good thinking.


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## Hbarh

*our problem*

around here not only do we have what you have(also a FEW elk) and a few
tier 1 predators, also sadly i fear, in a rancher dominated area, we'll have a problem with the unprepared poaching cattle and other livestock. a rancher 
and 2 or 3 hands can't effectively or safely cover the ground that is needed 
to range the amount cattle they run.


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## HozayBuck

*I think one aspect of the SHTF issue that most people miss is simply the "Private Property" thing..

Now, in a SHTF event it will either be an all out rapid spiral into hell or a slow slide into Anarchy , either way shortly the issues of who owns that house will become "Who used to live here? who used to own this horse running wild? and Cattle!! folks, Remember the stories of the cattle drives started in Texas and ending up all points North , East and West , clear to the border and both Oceans , those cattle were the result of 4 years of civil war with most of the men gone to fight the Northern Aggressors , in one year of uncontrolled normal living all those cows will still get bred, the bulls "Will" break down the fences to get the job done, generally speaking those calves born in that first year will be wild as can be , by the second year there will be almost twice as many calves born , etc etc... in two years the herds will be as wild as Deer... and no brands just like in the big thicket area of Texas , it was estimated there were millions of cattle running wild in Texas after the war and most had no brands... they belonged to anybody who had the ability to catch them and drive them north.

Well that same thing will happen again , and if there really is a major SHTF event , just how many people do you think will survive the first year, two years ? while the animals keep on thriving , mankind will be hunkered down and trying to stay alive... so.. if you get thru the first year then for the most part it will be a scavenger life style , If it's out there and not in somebodies hands then it's pretty much gonna be free for the taking... of course there will be some fools who will try to claim every cow, rabbit and deer in a 5 mile area as their private property and that will be a problem for all concerned..

A year old unbranded cow is as much mine as the next persons, If I hunt it down and kill it and butcher it and cook it I'm by god gonna eat it! IT's mine!

We all sit here in our AC cooled homes or our well heated homes and talk about TEOTWAWKI but most paint themselves as while knights... BS !! lol.. if your hungry your not going to say " Who's unbranded cow is this"?

I'm not a White Knight, I'm a reasonably honorable man, I wouldn't shoot somebody to get their garden produce, but if I come up on an abandoned house with a weed choked garden with wild carrots etc growing I'm gonna eat them.. and so will all of you .

IF and it's a big IF, you are prepared and survive the first year then the remains of civilization as we knew it belong to the ones who stayed alive, from the metal roofing on a hay shed that you need to the barbed wire rusting away that can be used to make your place more secure..

I think I've pointed out enough to make yawl think...you may not agree but if you live thru the first year you will.. your biggest worry is that first year, after that believe me, the former ownership of the cow who birthed the calf your roasting to feed your family will not matter one tiny bit..or so I think....

Happy eating!! OH !! you might wanna prep some butchering tools, a cow is damn hard to handle when it's dead, not like a deer..! *


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## DirtyHarry

I understand the situation you describe, but we aren't living in the 1800's anymore. Most cattle operations now don't even have a bull. Even small farms have gone totally to AI. Young bulls are castrated generally at one month of age so there aren't pens of potential bulls waiting to escape. There could be a lot of dairy cows turned loose when they can no longer be fed or milked. I would hate to see how many of them would die the first year. They are not prepared to live in the wild. Eventually some bull calves would be born in the wild, but they wouldn't breed for another year, that is if people hadn't shot them all before that. For the most part there is no branding anymore. The government mandates ear tags that identifies the farm they are produced on. In a total collapse of society there would be no fuel for travel so probably most animals would end up being killed for just a day or two's meals. The rest would go to waste. The cattle would be easy to shoot at first. Being handled by people daily, they would let you walk right up to them. However, you are describing what people living in the country are expecting. I will tell you that most people in the country are arming themselves for such events as you describe, so if the people don't die off much quicker than the cattle do it's going to get ugly. I think most people see the fall of civilization as going back to some previous period in time. We aren't going back. You can't unring a bell. I can see a future that is far worse than most seem to be considering.


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## BillM

*You are*



HozayBuck said:


> *I think one aspect of the SHTF issue that most people miss is simply the "Private Property" thing..
> 
> Now, in a SHTF event it will either be an all out rapid spiral into hell or a slow slide into Anarchy , either way shortly the issues of who owns that house will become "Who used to live here? who used to own this horse running wild? and Cattle!! folks, Remember the stories of the cattle drives started in Texas and ending up all points North , East and West , clear to the border and both Oceans , those cattle were the result of 4 years of civil war with most of the men gone to fight the Northern Aggressors , in one year of uncontrolled normal living all those cows will still get bred, the bulls "Will" break down the fences to get the job done, generally speaking those calves born in that first year will be wild as can be , by the second year there will be almost twice as many calves born , etc etc... in two years the herds will be as wild as Deer... and no brands just like in the big thicket area of Texas , it was estimated there were millions of cattle running wild in Texas after the war and most had no brands... they belonged to anybody who had the ability to catch them and drive them north.
> 
> Well that same thing will happen again , and if there really is a major SHTF event , just how many people do you think will survive the first year, two years ? while the animals keep on thriving , mankind will be hunkered down and trying to stay alive... so.. if you get thru the first year then for the most part it will be a scavenger life style , If it's out there and not in somebodies hands then it's pretty much gonna be free for the taking... of course there will be some fools who will try to claim every cow, rabbit and deer in a 5 mile area as their private property and that will be a problem for all concerned..
> 
> A year old unbranded cow is as much mine as the next persons, If I hunt it down and kill it and butcher it and cook it I'm by god gonna eat it! IT's mine!
> 
> We all sit here in our AC cooled homes or our well heated homes and talk about TEOTWAWKI but most paint themselves as while knights... BS !! lol.. if your hungry your not going to say " Who's unbranded cow is this"?
> 
> I'm not a White Knight, I'm a reasonably honorable man, I wouldn't shoot somebody to get their garden produce, but if I come up on an abandoned house with a weed choked garden with wild carrots etc growing I'm gonna eat them.. and so will all of you .
> 
> IF and it's a big IF, you are prepared and survive the first year then the remains of civilization as we knew it belong to the ones who stayed alive, from the metal roofing on a hay shed that you need to the barbed wire rusting away that can be used to make your place more secure..
> 
> I think I've pointed out enough to make yawl think...you may not agree but if you live thru the first year you will.. your biggest worry is that first year, after that believe me, the former ownership of the cow who birthed the calf your roasting to feed your family will not matter one tiny bit..or so I think....
> 
> Happy eating!! OH !! you might wanna prep some butchering tools, a cow is damn hard to handle when it's dead, not like a deer..! *


You are correct . I see the same thing developing with our population. I would expect as many as 90 % to die off in the first year, most by starvation and natural causes.


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## HozayBuck

DirtyHarry said:


> I understand the situation you describe, but we aren't living in the 1800's anymore. Most cattle operations now don't even have a bull. Even small farms have gone totally to AI. Young bulls are castrated generally at one month of age so there aren't pens of potential bulls waiting to escape. There could be a lot of dairy cows turned loose when they can no longer be fed or milked. I would hate to see how many of them would die the first year. They are not prepared to live in the wild. Eventually some bull calves would be born in the wild, but they wouldn't breed for another year, that is if people hadn't shot them all before that. For the most part there is no branding anymore. The government mandates ear tags that identifies the farm they are produced on. In a total collapse of society there would be no fuel for travel so probably most animals would end up being killed for just a day or two's meals. The rest would go to waste. The cattle would be easy to shoot at first. Being handled by people daily, they would let you walk right up to them. However, you are describing what people living in the country are expecting. I will tell you that most people in the country are arming themselves for such events as you describe, so if the people don't die off much quicker than the cattle do it's going to get ugly. I think most people see the fall of civilization as going back to some previous period in time. We aren't going back. You can't unring a bell. I can see a future that is far worse than most seem to be considering.


*Harry I have no idea where you live but you sure ain't spent no time in Montana or Texas, ranchers run bulls with their herds, that's a fact, yes some cattle producers do AI, but it's more those into breeding blooded breeding stock.. a real rancher don't have the time or the money to have several hundred head in a pen waiting for a Vet or even doing it his self.. why bother when a bull will get it done with no help...

I spent a lot of my almost 40 years in MT riding and helping round up cows in the fall and there sure as hell were bulls mixed in..

I'll tell you this also, no you can't unring a bell, but you can damn sure ring it louder and more often...to see the future as some kind of end of all that we know is just flat wrong.. mankind has been knocked down many time but a few always get back up and keep going...that's the way of Man...

So where I'm at we have bulls, we have men who will get up, IF they get knocked down.. and doing the knocking may not be as easy as one would think..

I have faith...faith in myself, my family and my ancestors who settled this land and the ones in my family who were already here when the White Man "Found" the place ..

Maybe in parts of the country they do things like you say but everywhere I've lived it's not done that way...and your analogy of dairy cattle??? do you think a dairy cow will stand in grass and starve because the human ain't there to hand it to her?...and fences? HA..I've seen a bull walk thru barb wire like it was spider web..

Nope, all's gonna be ok , we may not make it but nature will... *


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## The_Blob

The only thing I've seen the *electrified barbed wire* fence do is remind the animals that there is still food inside the fenced in area, and it is (marginally) easier to turn around and eat that than to walk through the fence, but if they want out they *will* get out.

Horses, cows and other livestock are still branded around here, as well as being tatoo'd, ear-tagged, and ID chipped... some people with 'champion' livestock noseprint their prize bulls and heifers :nuts:


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## DirtyHarry

It seems you want an argument rather than an exchange of ideas. You are right, I have never spent time in Texas but I have been to Montana. Beef operations do run bulls, but that isn't the case for MOST of the country. I live in Michigan and I raise cattle, so I know exactly what cattle will and won't do. By far the biggest percentage of cattle here are on dairy farms where they are almost entirely bred by AI, since they are handled twice each day for milking. Some farms do keep a back up bull for those that won't take, but not many. Yes cattle will find food in the summer and will break fences down to get it if they are hungry. However, in this area I doubt that most cattle would make it through the first winter. We have masive deer die offs quite often when we have a bad winter. They are sure much better equipped to handle the winter than cattle that have never left the barn. 

I'm not saying that what you describe won't happen in some areas, but that's probably not what most of us can expect. As far as unringing a bell, read about how things were before and after the fall of Rome and you will see what I'm talking about. A lot of things happened with the fall of the Roman Empire. For example we lost track of all those who had already migrated to America when America was a "melting pot" the first time around. The white man has been "finding" this place for a very long time, along with about every other people on earth, just like they are doing now. 

I'm not sure what your idea of being ok is, but read how people lived in the dark ages, then multiply that by 100 for the fall of America. Not to mention that the people in power are not going down without a fight. I know man has been knocked down many times and rose again. Usually not because of how tough they are, but rather because of luck or divine providence. I just see this time around as being different, both in scope and severity. You don't have to agree with me.


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## ONEOLDCHIEF

When it hits the fan, I believe that the Gov't will be coming through farms and taking animals to feed the sheeple. They have an idea already of who owns cattle operations, chicken houses, hog farms and they will target the big ones first then the smaller ones. Will not be much you can do about it when they are coming in armed to the teeth. 

As for the wildlife population, it will be decimated. I remember my Dad and Uncles telling us stories about they would be on a deer drive days on end without seeing one deer. 40's. 50's, 60's and even into the early 70's there were not many deer in Southwewst Mississippi. People being hungry, they will randomly shoot anything and waste most of it. Give it six months, there will not be wildlife as we knew it. During the depression nearly all wild game became endangered, and it took decades for the populations to recover.


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## BillM

Remember , the wild life lives outside on their own all the time. People don't and as a whole are not likely to adapt to a hunter gatherer life style very fast.

From my perspective , if I was betting on who will survive the longest, I would place my bet on the wildlife.

If the SHTF, some wildlife will decline from over hunting and then when the human population declines at a faster rate than they do, they will rebound in spades!


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## LongRider

HozayBuck said:


> *I think one aspect of the SHTF issue that most people miss is simply the "Private Property" thing.. *


Around here that mind set will get you a dirt nap


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## DirtyHarry

ONEOLDCHIEF said:


> When it hits the fan, I believe that the Gov't will be coming through farms and taking animals to feed the sheeple. They have an idea already of who owns cattle operations, chicken houses, hog farms and they will target the big ones first then the smaller ones. Will not be much you can do about it when they are coming in armed to the teeth.
> QUOTE]
> 
> You are totally correct. When you run a farm the government requires you to provide an inventory of every type and amount of animals on the farm. They don't want you to have six chickens without them knowing about it.


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## marlas1too

I was raised in the swamps of Florida and anything that swims,crawls,fly s,runs, or digs can be eaten or in the language of the swamps et I plan on surviving-I have ate a many plate of wild critters growing up and didn't think twice about it -it was something to keep from getting hungry--people better wake up and stock up


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## JustCliff

And then again..... They can become a problem. I agree in the short term populations will go down and then rebound. One animal that would be a mixed blessing is hogs. There are problems in a few parts of the country with ferrel hogs. I have read and watched some stories on them. They can ruin crops in no time. fences mean very little to them. They breed quickly and over run areas in a short amount of time.
I wonder what effect they would have on other species of animals. BY them eating anything in site and being a bit on the aggressive side, I think they may drive out other more desirable species like cows, deer,goats,rabbits and such by ruining their habitats.


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## stayingthegame

nature can and will balance herself if left alone. if the shtf comes, it may take a couple of years, but the stronger of each species, including ourselves, will survive. the weak will die. that's nature. we humans try to control nature to much sometimes. one bull can handle a herd with no problem. and if the herd is left to its own, there will be baby bulls born even from AI. and when baby bulls grow guess what they look for and "take care of", baby cows. where I live in the south most framers that have bulls "loan " them out to farmers that don't have a bull. they will put a bull in the field and let him have fun for a couple of weeks. I know, because our fire department has been called out to help corral a run away bull. the best catcher, a hot female. let him do his thing and throw a rope on him.


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## BillS

LongRider said:


> Around here that mind set will get you a dirt nap


That's the risk a lot of people will take after it hits the fan.


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## BillS

ONEOLDCHIEF said:


> When it hits the fan, I believe that the Gov't will be coming through farms and taking animals to feed the sheeple. They have an idea already of who owns cattle operations, chicken houses, hog farms and they will target the big ones first then the smaller ones. Will not be much you can do about it when they are coming in armed to the teeth.


The government doesn't care about the sheeple. They could be warning everyone now about a potential economic collapse but they're doing nothing except encouraging more and more people to become more and more dependent on government.

The government will have a lot on its plate after the collapse. They'll have to guard the areas where the elite live, fight gangs in the cities, and guard supply routes from the coasts to the interior. Chances are there will also be armed insurrection.

I think their plan is to block exits from the cities, not let anyone out, and make sure as many people die as possible. You have to remember that there are a significant amount of people who believe that the biggest problem with the earth is human overpopulation. There's been a lot of talk about lowering the human population to sustainable levels.

Check this out:

http://www.amazon.com/Ecoscience-Population-Environment-Paul-Ehrlich/dp/0716700298

A customer review:

Forced abortions. Mass sterilization. A "Planetary Regime" with the power of life and death over American citizens.

The tyrannical fantasies of a madman? Or merely the opinions of the person now in control of science policy in the United States? Or both?

These ideas (among many other equally horrifying recommendations) were put forth by John Holdren, whom Barack Obama has recently appointed Director of the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy, Assistant to the President for Science and Technology, and Co-Chair of the President's Council of Advisors on Science and Technology -- informally known as the United States' Science Czar. In this book Holdren co-authored in 1977, the man now firmly in control of science policy in this country wrote that:

* Women could be forced to abort their pregnancies, whether they wanted to or not;

* The population at large could be sterilized by infertility drugs intentionally put into the nation's drinking water or in food;

* Single mothers and teen mothers should have their babies seized from them against their will and given away to other couples to raise;

* People who "contribute to social deterioration" (i.e. undesirables) "can be required by law to exercise reproductive responsibility" -- in other words, be compelled to have abortions or be sterilized.

* A transnational "Planetary Regime" should assume control of the global economy and also dictate the most intimate details of Americans' lives -- using an armed international police force.

Impossible, you say? That must be an exaggeration or a hoax. No one in their right mind would say such things. [...]


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## LongRider

BillS said:


> That's the risk a lot of people will take after it hits the fan.


There is not doubt in my mind about that. Hardly a thread goes by without someone talking about bugging out to some wilderness area without a thought that those places are already someones property or territory. Which is why we have a security plan in place to greet intruders and offer them the opportunity to move on or stay to fertilize the grounds they choose to invade.


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## dirtgrrl

I was gonna respond to a few posts but Hozay just about said it all. Out here there are places where 30 to 80 percent of the cattle have never felt the gentle touch of a hot iron or knife. There are many self-sustaining populations out here that haven't seen their "owner" in years. They have obviously been abandoned. 

As far as I'm concerned, a several year old slick grazing on public range is fair game. They're called "slow elk" for a reason.


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## Magus

[email protected] "Slow Elk" !!


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## HozayBuck

dirtgrrl said:


> I was gonna respond to a few posts but Hozay just about said it all. Out here there are places where 30 to 80 percent of the cattle have never felt the gentle touch of a hot iron or knife. There are many self-sustaining populations out here that haven't seen their "owner" in years. They have obviously been abandoned.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, a several year old slick grazing on public range is fair game. They're called "slow elk" for a reason.


*I love it when common sense shines thru the BS, DG your a ray of sun shine.... Yep Slow Elk..

But your doing ok if your still making a living in "Lost Wages" now yawl get rid of the dirt bag Harry Reid and I'll be pleased...*


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## HozayBuck

DirtyHarry said:


> It seems you want an argument rather than an exchange of ideas. You are right, I have never spent time in Texas but I have been to Montana. Beef operations do run bulls, but that isn't the case for MOST of the country. I live in Michigan and I raise cattle, so I know exactly what cattle will and won't do. By far the biggest percentage of cattle here are on dairy farms where they are almost entirely bred by AI, since they are handled twice each day for milking. Some farms do keep a back up bull for those that won't take, but not many. Yes cattle will find food in the summer and will break fences down to get it if they are hungry. However, in this area I doubt that most cattle would make it through the first winter. We have masive deer die offs quite often when we have a bad winter. They are sure much better equipped to handle the winter than cattle that have never left the barn.
> 
> I'm not saying that what you describe won't happen in some areas, but that's probably not what most of us can expect. As far as unringing a bell, read about how things were before and after the fall of Rome and you will see what I'm talking about. A lot of things happened with the fall of the Roman Empire. For example we lost track of all those who had already migrated to America when America was a "melting pot" the first time around. The white man has been "finding" this place for a very long time, along with about every other people on earth, just like they are doing now.
> 
> I'm not sure what your idea of being ok is, but read how people lived in the dark ages, then multiply that by 100 for the fall of America. Not to mention that the people in power are not going down without a fight. I know man has been knocked down many times and rose again. Usually not because of how tough they are, but rather because of luck or divine providence. I just see this time around as being different, both in scope and severity. You don't have to agree with me.


Harry, I'm not looking for an argument, you made a generalized statement about cattle operations, If you had said " Here in Michigan we do it different" no prob...

Maybe if I said " IN Montana, Okla, Texas,Northern Californacation, Wyo and N and S Dakots they do it this way I would have been more clear...

I know a guy who built a nice herd by riding the high country forest service lease grounds picking up Mavericks after the fall round ups were done.. he would usually find a few unbranded calves and if there ain't no momma they ain't no dispute on ownership.

I guess we could nitpick each others words till the SHTF but I'll pass, I speak of where I've been and what I saw with my own eyes .. and I never been to Michigan nor will I ever be there so I concede that point..


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## HozayBuck

LongRider said:


> Around here that mind set will get you a dirt nap


LR I agree in a normal sense... But please read my entire post and I believe you will see what I'm talking about...

Yes even in a SHTF event if you live on 100 acres or 10 acres it's your land no doubt tho the deed may be tied up in a mortgage someplace never to be seen again....

But just because you own that bit of dirt it gives you no rights to issue a " dirt nap " to somebody shooting a calf or deer on the land across the road...

That was not my point.. When , not if, the SHTF we all need to understand that no matter how much we believe we have the right to do whatever, the next person has the same idea... and if we don't make an effort to get along it's gonna be a short and nasty life...


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## dirtgrrl

HozayBuck said:


> *I love it when common sense shines thru the BS, DG your a ray of sun shine.... Yep Slow Elk..
> 
> But your doing ok if your still making a living in "Lost Wages" now yawl get rid of the dirt bag Harry Reid and I'll be pleased...*


Thanks Mr. Buck, I appreciate it.

Sen. Reid's not running for re-election, so he'll be gone in a few years anyway.


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## LongRider

HozayBuck said:


> LR I agree in a normal sense... But please read my entire post and I believe you will see what I'm talking about...
> 
> Yes even in a SHTF event if you live on 100 acres or 10 acres it's your land no doubt tho the deed may be tied up in a mortgage someplace never to be seen again....
> 
> But just because you own that bit of dirt it gives you no rights to issue a " dirt nap " to somebody shooting a calf or deer on the land across the road...
> 
> That was not my point.. When , not if, the SHTF we all need to understand that no matter how much we believe we have the right to do whatever, the next person has the same idea... and if we don't make an effort to get along it's gonna be a short and nasty life...


I retired at forty, We paid cash for the house and property, the bank and mortgage company has never owned any part of my home. Credit is something I was taught that you acquire not something you use. If I can not pay cash I can not afford it. We have spent a decade and continue to work at making our home safe secure and self sustaining. It has become our way of life.

Beyond that we will have to agree to disagree. As of today in Washington state lethal force is justified in the defense of self, and others and in the defense of property, to stop a felony from being committed and to stop a fleeing felon. Twice I have had the police called on me for making trespassers lay in the mud at gun point. Twice the police stopped at my property line and called me asking me to meet them. Twice the criminals told their story where they had entered my property without my consent or invitation. Both times the police told them I would have been within my rights to shoot them and than asked me if I wanted to press charges against the trespassers. The one bitch would not shut her trap so I had her locked up. CPS took custody of her kids. Much to my glee I really do despise Jehovah Witnesses.

Post SHTF our perimeter is two miles for our property lines it is there we will draw the line, make the stand to protect our homes and the wilderness area that we depend on for sustenance. People will be afforded the opportunity to move on peacefully. If they choose to ignore that invitation they will have committed a capitol crime. It is not about a piece of dirt. It is about our living or dying. Once SHTF the entitlement gravy train will have left, just because someone needs, wants or thinks they are entitled to what is in our territory does not give them the right to it. At no time do I accept responsibility for others complacency or ineptitude. I am not responsible for their choices. As we are dug in. Well supplied with lines of fire ranged, hides and terrain well plotted out any invader who attempts to violate our territory will have made a fatal mistake. Please let us live in peace, move on, go in peace, I wish everyone the best of luck. Steal from me or mine, slaughter our livestock or hunt our game and I have no qualms about the consequences you brought upon yourself. I expect that I will live a long full happy life. I hope others make choices that allow them to do so as well.

Added to be clear, the use of you is not directed at you personally or individually but used in general terms as in the other that is not me, you. Hope that makes sense.


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## Jaspar

DirtyHarry said:


> It seems you want an argument rather than an exchange of ideas. You are right, I have never spent time in Texas but I have been to Montana. Beef operations do run bulls, but that isn't the case for MOST of the country. I live in Michigan and I raise cattle, so I know exactly what cattle will and won't do. By far the biggest percentage of cattle here are on dairy farms where they are almost entirely bred by AI, since they are handled twice each day for milking. Some farms do keep a back up bull for those that won't take, but not many. Yes cattle will find food in the summer and will break fences down to get it if they are hungry. However, in this area I doubt that most cattle would make it through the first winter. We have masive deer die offs quite often when we have a bad winter. They are sure much better equipped to handle the winter than cattle that have never left the barn.
> 
> I'm not saying that what you describe won't happen in some areas, but that's probably not what most of us can expect. As far as unringing a bell, read about how things were before and after the fall of Rome and you will see what I'm talking about. A lot of things happened with the fall of the Roman Empire. For example we lost track of all those who had already migrated to America when America was a "melting pot" the first time around. The white man has been "finding" this place for a very long time, along with about every other people on earth, just like they are doing now.
> 
> I'm not sure what your idea of being ok is, but read how people lived in the dark ages, then multiply that by 100 for the fall of America. Not to mention that the people in power are not going down without a fight. I know man has been knocked down many times and rose again. Usually not because of how tough they are, but rather because of luck or divine providence. I just see this time around as being different, both in scope and severity. You don't have to agree with me.


That's a dairy. Most "beef" cow/calf producers I know have bulls. Just sayin.


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## Jimthewagontraveler

In Missouri I see lots of bulls


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## Tank_Girl

Jaspar said:


> That's a dairy. Most "beef" cow/calf producers I know have bulls. Just sayin.


Absolutely.

My ex's family owned large grazing enterprise.
Trust me when I say that these places covered many square kilometers.
Not one cow was covered using AI.
Ever.
Mustering was done with helicopters, portable yards and motorbikes.

It was nothing to see 4 or 5 year old clean skin bulls and cows, feral pigs beyond count, wild and unbranded horses and donkeys and wild goats.
Regardless of how thorough you think you've swept the country, animals will slip through the net and keep on breeding and surviving all without the interference of man.


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## LongRider

Tank_Girl said:


> It was nothing to see 4 or 5 year old clean skin bulls and cows, feral pigs beyond count, wild and unbranded horses and donkeys and wild goats.
> Regardless of how thorough you think you've swept the country, animals will slip through the net and keep on breeding and surviving all without the interference of man.


Yep like dirtgrrl said slow elk


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## *Andi

*SHTF Pressure on Wildlife*



stayingthegame said:


> nature can and will balance herself if left alone. if the shtf comes, it may take a couple of years, but the stronger of each species, including ourselves, will survive. the weak will die. that's nature. we humans try to control nature to much sometimes.


I agree, Nature can and will balance.

Just a few things I will toss out for general thought ...

New Pesticides, New Problems ~ This is IMO. 

It is estimated that "roughly" over 600 million birds are exposed yearly to pesticides. Again it is estimated that 10% (60 million) are killed by this poison.

Many die~offs have been attributed to diazinon, in 1990 it was classified as a restricted ingredient (banned for golf courses and turf farms) But hey, you can get it for "your lawn and most parks" ... (and diazinon is only one of about 40)

Then we could move on to Herbicides ... sigh ... But I think you get the picture.

I never knew that looking into the migration of the snow goose would be full of info.


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