# Vehicles after batteries?



## d_saum

So let's say that your SHTF scenario has happened, and you are a few years down the road. Your preps have kept you alive and in good shape, and your BOV has been serving it's purpose dutifully the whole time with only minor issues here and there along the way. As the days go by, you are noticing that your battery is cranking slower and slower each day, and you cannot just run up to Walmart or Autozone to get a new one... Now what? If your BOV is a stick, sure.. you can push and pop the clutch.. but is that really practical every time you need to start it? What if your BOV is an automatic? How do you start it then? Even if you could find batteries left behind, they wouldn't hold a charge after sitting on the shelves for so long. 

Ideas?


----------



## cowboyhermit

Well, if there were no good batteries around, it is possible to make one with lead, just not easy to make one that is very good.

Easier methods would be a pony motor, which is basically a small engine that you pull start and then it starts the large engine, these are used on big deisels up in the north (here)
You could also use a generator and an AC motor, I pack one around all the time right now on the farm.
Hydraulic powerpack would work as well.

The trick would be in the retrofit, on most regular vehicles it would be tricky but it could be done one way or another. A big old 3ton is a lot easier, especially with a pto.

Now that I think of it, you could have a small motor with a robust enough DC power source and keep your starter.


----------



## smaj100

Hey I just had a wild thought? Someone with some electrical experience might jump in here and enlighten us. What if you took a hand cranked generator wired to a large capacitor and then wired that directly to the starter? Hence no need for a battery, give the old hand crank some spins and fill up the cap, then pow start it up. Once it was running you could wire the regulator to the cap and recharge it while you drove.

Any thoughts?


----------



## Caribou

You could keep one or more dry lead/acid batteries and only add the fluid years later.


----------



## cowboyhermit

smaj100 said:


> Hey I just had a wild thought? Someone with some electrical experience might jump in here and enlighten us. What if you took a hand cranked generator wired to a large capacitor and then wired that directly to the starter? Hence no need for a battery, give the old hand crank some spins and fill up the cap, then pow start it up. Once it was running you could wire the regulator to the cap and recharge it while you drove.
> 
> Any thoughts?


Capacitors are great and I think they will improve in the future, however they do not have an unlimited lifetime either. Also, any kind of capacitor that you will find around will not come close to starting a vehicle, you would have to use a bank of them and with a hand crank it would take awhile but you could charge them other ways like solar or even the alternator depending on how long the vehicle would be shut off and the discharge rate of the capacitor. Good idea though!


----------



## Jimthewagontraveler

Capacitors will not work they are a sudden discharge item. 
If you have enough juice to do any good they would just 
weld the starter wires into a big glob.
Brigs & Stratton made small motors for many years with a
wind up starter that worked very well. 
But the spring needed would be quite dangerous for a small auto
engine. 
I think the best device for your answer would be an air starter
with a small hand crank heavy flywheel air compressor as an
auxillary to the one the engine itself uses to pump up a small
air tank.


----------



## smaj100

Not sure what this company is selling these for, but this was what I was wondering if you could build. Gonna do some more research and maybe start a project.

http://www.maxwell.com/products/ultracapacitors/products/16v-large-modules

Found a supplier in the US, they are going for $650 each, but they have been using them in AU for awhile on big trucks and such.


----------



## UncleJoe

There is also the solar powered battery charger/desulfator. AuntJoe got me one a few years ago. I took an 8 year old Interstate battery, hooked it up to this unit and then just let it go. It took about 6-7 months but one day I took a look at the "battery-minder" and it was flashing in the "maintenance charge" mode. I'm now using that battery in one of my trucks.

Yes, it's painfully slow but it does work and I've been using that "dead" battery for 2 years.


----------



## Sentry18

VW's all the way up to the 1960's had a notch in the crankshaft pulley so you could use a leather strap with a rivet and a t-handle to pull start them. Any low compression engine should be able to be pull started. So perhaps we should all be buying old 1300-1600cc beetles and turning them into baja prepper vehicles. I also believe that crank start engines were made into the late 1950's.


----------



## LincTex

A lot of old aviation engines had a flywheel starter that took a good strong mechanic about 30 seconds to get up to speed (some spooled up with a small electric motor), then a clutch engaged the flywheel inertia into the engine gearbox to start the engine. That's one Idea. It is a heavy item, but requires no other energy than human-powered motion.

The air starter is another good one, but it has it's pluses and minuses also. You need a very large air tank because they use 100's of CFM of air in a very brief moment. A small magneto-ignited gasoline (moonshine?) powered air compressor would need to run for several minutes to build up enough air.

You would also want a small magneto ignited engine running a small permanent magnet alternator to supply power for the ignition system. If the vehicle's alternator is good, it will continue to run on its own alternator.


----------



## cowboyhermit

Yeah, that's a misconception about capacitors, they CAN deliver large amounts of energy quickly but they don't need to, the amount of power drawn will be determined by the voltage and resistance of the circuit, they are often used in electronics to smooth out a power supply.

With any kind of modern vehicle (not magneto or generator) they have to have some electricity to start, it doesn't need to be much just enough to provide a field in the alternator. Our old W4 starts with one flip of the crank and no battery but it has an electrical system more like a small engine than a modern vehicle.


----------



## swjohnsey

Not sure that most modern cars will run without a battery even after it is started.


----------



## cowboyhermit

swjohnsey said:


> Not sure that most modern cars will run without a battery even after it is started.


Yes, they will.
Best to have something in it, even with negligible capacity though.


----------



## LincTex

cowboyhermit said:


> Yes, they will. Best to have something in it, even with negligible capacity though.


Correct. 
No battery at all is a killer.... 
but they will run with a crappy battery in place - it is just enough of a "cushion" for the alternator output to make it all work.


----------



## LincTex

cowboyhermit said:


> Our old W4 starts with one flip of the crank and no battery but it has an electrical system more like a small engine than a modern vehicle.


Give me a bit of time in a machine shop, and I'll turn any modern EFI engine into a carb-and-magneto engine!

It's easier to do this kind of thing with 4-bangers, since 4 cyl mags are so darn easy to find. 6 cyl and 8 cyl aviation mags are available as well. I can also use two 4 cyl mags running 45 degrees apart from each other and run a V8 engine that way.

This DOHC 4.6 liter Ford now runs a distributor off the camshaft and a Holley carb. Swap a magneto in place of the distributor, and there you go.


----------



## Justaguy987

Caribou said:


> You could keep one or more dry lead/acid batteries and only add the fluid years later.


I like this idea, I do not see a problem with it. Would a dry battery be emp proof?


----------



## LincTex

Justaguy987 said:


> I like this idea, I do not see a problem with it.


The problem is, It's just that they are so dang hard to find like that (in sizes any larger than motorcycle)



Justaguy987 said:


> Would a dry battery be emp proof?


I would only imagine so. Most believe a filled acid battery is pretty darn emp proof, anyway. I would have to agree (for various reasons).


----------



## Marcus

Justaguy987 said:


> I like this idea, I do not see a problem with it. Would a dry battery be emp proof?


An EMP will only affect semiconductors, and to a lesser extent, vacuum tubes along with very long wire run (transmission lines.) Since a battery has neither, it'll be ok.


----------



## LincTex

Marcus said:


> and to a lesser extent, vacuum tubes


I'd say a LOT lesser. I have seen them pushed waaaaay harder then they should have been in guitar amps and still keep working, so I am pretty impressed by their hardiness.


----------



## readytogo

*Simple things go a long way.*

I was 7 years old when my Father put me behind the wheel of a 1948 Chevy
flat V8 with 3 on the column, made or adapted our own spare parts, the battery was conserved by pushing the car whenever possible, no solar panels, no portable starting equipment, a battery will run you about $1000,00,if you could find one.So I really don`t think much of a doom scenario, I lived one back then, but if I had the money I will convert my Astro Van to a I6/3 or 4 on the floor or buy me a Ford Van with the same,nothing electric no computer, a few modern amenities yes with the foresight of spare parts and tools. The first vehicle I had was a 1974 VW station wagon,1200 Porsche Eng.no water cooling system, mechanical cooling system and heating and a very small metric tool set. Simple.
Now days we have many options, solar charging, portable generators and battery packs, also removing the battery from the Eng. compartment will keep it cooler, never put tap water in it if contains chlorine, battery isolator for a two battery system works great, you will always have extra power and the largest alternator your vehicle will handle, keep the batteries cool.


----------



## Tirediron

most batteries that cannot be fixxed by a desulphator, need to have the "trash" cleaned out of the bottom which is probably shorting some plates,
but there are air starters for large motor applications and there are spring starters for industrial application where a electric starter might be a danger.
or use a little "Bengal" ingenuity


----------



## helicopter5472

I know this sounds funny but I seen where a guy used one of those air wrenches used for putting your lug nuts on and off it was one that had a 1 inch shaft ment for big trucks, they sell at Harbor Freight. He used a socket on the front balancer bolt. In the old days some of the cars used a big generator to do both start the car and generate juice for the battery. I have a generator at home that uses the generator to start it. Most Onan RV generators are this way.


----------



## LincTex

helicopter5472 said:


> I have a generator at home that uses the generator to start it. Most Onan RV generators are this way.


Yeah, mine is too but I don't like it. It needs a huge battery to work right. I have enough parts to add a starter to the flywheel, so that looks like what I will probably be doing eventually.

A person could toss something like this together very easily to keep in your car/truck to get you started when your battery gets weak. http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f16/homemade-generator-17799/


----------



## cowboyhermit

Someone else playing with the capacitor idea, still don't think you are going to find them around but if you bought some now:dunno:


----------



## cnsper

Well that is why you have a vehicle from the 70's that can run without a battery... i.e. No Computer.....

Jump start it with your battery booster that runs off your generator.


----------



## Jason

I don't know much about batteries but if you had a dry automotive battery, would you have to worry about the plates oxidizing? Would that prevent them from working right?


----------



## LincTex

cnsper said:


> Well that is why you have a vehicle from the 70's that can run without a battery... i.e. No Computer.


They still need a battery. It's too much too ask of the alternator to precisely handle load changes without possibly huge voltage spikes. The battery, even if bad, acts as a cushion (as long as it isn't shorted out internally).

The old timers would dissemble them and clean them out. Maybe its a good time to relearn old tricks. Tough to do with new designs, but not impossible.


----------



## Tirediron

many batteries only have one cell fail, so if one were to separate the good cells (2volt) they could series a few together to make a starting battery, again knowledge and skills over stored supplies


----------



## helicopter5472

Earlier someone said motorcycle batteries are too small. I have taken the battery from my 4 wheeler and started my truck with it. No reason that you couldn't buy and stock a lot of these batteries without the acid in them. You could put two together, (easy to fit two in battery compartment) Get the largest ones. Maybe someone who has more time can see if any battery manufacture will sell without the acid installed. I remember when I worked in service stations in the late 70's and 80's we used to get all our batteries in dry and had to fill them and charge them before installing. I would like to pick up about ten automotive type and thirty six volt deep cycle for solar/inverter use and store them acid free for future use. I watched a film that took a Ford Taurus and EMP'd it as they drove it, It killed the engine,(electronics) but the battery still worked and so did the electric windows. Wish they had some real world testing of the EMP damages, I could think of a good area, North Korea.....


----------



## Tirediron

while on the subject of atv batteries, a few of my friends used to get gelcell wheel chair batteries to put in their atvs for more winching power, this was in the late 90s , does anyone know about the life cycle of these??


----------



## LincTex

helicopter5472 said:


> I have taken the battery from my 4 wheeler and started my truck with it. You could put two together, (easy to fit two in battery compartment) Get the largest ones.


The newer PM (permanent magnet) gear reduction starters use far less juice than their older series-shunt wound brethren. Did you try this when it was really, really cold out?


----------



## LincTex

Tirediron said:


> a few of my friends used to get gelcell wheel chair ...does anyone know about the life cycle of these??


Not great. 
Better yet is the AGM batteries, like Optima and Odyssey... and others.


----------



## d_saum

cowboyhermit said:


> Someone else playing with the capacitor idea, still don't think you are going to find them around but if you bought some now:dunno:


Hmmm.... That might be something to look into!!! I'm wondering what the lifespan of these caps are? I'd think it's pretty long like all other caps... I know some of the smaller ones last 30 - 40 years plus! :2thumb:


----------



## cowboyhermit

Lifespan can be affected by temperature and other factors, that much I know, would heat under the hood be too much? If so, I guess you could put them elsewhere.


----------



## smaj100

Cowboy they are affected by heat and cold. But you could easily place them in an insulated box either under the hood or elsewhere since weight is not really a concern. And with not off gassing or leaking acid I would even be inclined to place them in the cab. The cab/trunk area poses it's own heat problems though.

The other big concern would be slow self discharge. While most supercaps self discharge at a very slow rate, how often are you going to drive a vehicle post shtf? Would it sit for days/weeks before you make the trip to town or for whatever? You would definitely need some form of either wind/solar power to trickle charge the caps and keep them topped off.

For those in super cold/hot environments you could consider placing a single super cap across your battery to help boost its starting power and maybe extend the longevity of the battery. I thought about placing a batteryminder that runs on 12v attached to the battery full time in my truck, that would probably prevent me from placing a cap inline with the battery. I know how caps and battery's work separately but i'm not sure I wanna supercap under the hood near the battery while the batteryminder is doing its pulsing desulfator phase. That might not react well with the cap.

Thoughts?


----------



## Mortblanc

Leave it to American teen agers


----------



## LincTex

smaj100 said:


> For those in super cold/hot environments you could consider placing a single super cap across your battery to help boost its starting power and maybe extend the longevity of the battery.


This is what the car stereo competition guys are doing. When you hit a heavy bass note and the amp is at its highest draw, the capacitor is there to supply the inrush amperage.

Since car manufacturers want to save weight and space, I guess it's only a matter of time before they start doing this for starting circuits


----------



## helicopter5472

LincTex said:


> The newer PM (permanent magnet) gear reduction starters use far less juice than their older series-shunt wound brethren. Did you try this when it was really, really cold out?


Well I have a older Chevy pickup (2000) with a 5.3, it has 136K on it. It was in the 30's the morning when I did this, but I took the battery out of the 4 wheeler which was in the garage all the time, also was on a trickle charger so was fully charged, but the battery is 2 years old. I used hose clamps to mate the cables and terminals. I'm not saying this is the best setup but when in a bind, use what you got. Put two together this would be even better. How about garden tractor batteries. If it gets you going and gets you down the road, it's makes me happy.


----------



## d_saum

smaj100 said:


> The other big concern would be slow self discharge. While most supercaps self discharge at a very slow rate, how often are you going to drive a vehicle post shtf? Would it sit for days/weeks before you make the trip to town or for whatever? You would definitely need some form of either wind/solar power to trickle charge the caps and keep them topped off.


In the video he shows how fast it charges back up from a solar panel. It looks like that'd keep it topped off nicely.


----------



## VUnder

A generator might be best. If you can find an old magneto distributor, you don't even need a generator. You can rig up some type of rope start. We have started large diesels by using a large rope wrapped around the front pulley and tying to a hitch ball on a truck and taking off. Which in a grid down you could use a dropped weight, beast of burden, push it. Most engines with just a little prime will bust right off anyways. Trust me, I live in amongst a lot of junk and drive 70's and earlier vehicles on a regular basis. I have a 75 and a 76 licensed right now. I fool with old things all the time. I can get my hands on a couple of magneto distributors for a 300 I-6 Ford right now. An old tractor with a magneto or even a diesel tractor would be a better vehicle because food would be a quick concern. So, get you a distiller so you can make your own fuel to run this thing. Make you a few carbs with the jets drilled out to run on alcohol. If you have an old diesel you may can run it on some kind of oil, but filtering is a problem. Plus, with a carburetor you can just clean it out, but a goofed injector pump will shut you down. I spent last weekend working on an old Mack Super Liner that had been sitting for years, they cranked it, and ran it completely out of diesel. It had 300 gallons in the tanks, but had lost its prime. But, I was glad to get it off of my place, taking up a lot of room.


----------



## LincTex

helicopter5472 said:


> Well I have a older Chevy pickup (2000)


Year model 2000 is not generally considered as being "older". 
That's pretty darn new to me... maybe I am getting "older" than I thought!!!

Yes, the 5.3 used a PM GR starter that is pretty low on the amperage draw. You could probably fit 4 ATV batteries where one large truck battery fits.


----------



## LincTex

VUnder said:


> If you can find an old magneto distributor, you don't even need a generator.


An HEI module will run off of a 9 volt battery of all things. I didn't try it out for how long, probably less than an hour. But I'll bet I could run an engine with an HEI for several hours on an ATV or motorcycle battery.



VUnder said:


> We have started large diesels .... in a grid down you could use a dropped weight, beast of burden, push it.


I have started the Cummins in my truck many times just rolling down a hill and letting the clutch out in 3rd, just to see if it would. No problem. I do live on a hill, so that makes it easier, too. Also have a hand crank diesel tractor, I can drag any vehicle up a hill with that!


----------



## Tirediron

I found a stone flat Optima style AGM battery in a stored vehicle, put my old torcan charger it, in about 6 hours it was pulling full guage charge, so I swapped to a bigger charger on a low setting, it took charge easy from that one too, (it wouldn't activate when fully flat), the battery got warm to the touch, and is still taking charge. we will see how it turns out.


----------



## LincTex

Tirediron said:


> AGM battery.....it took charge easy .....the battery got warm to the touch


Be careful, AGM batteries can "vent off" hydrogen and "dry out" if charged too fast, once they are "dry" there's no getting the electrolyte back.


----------



## helicopter5472

LincTex said:


> Year model 2000 is not generally considered as being "older".
> That's pretty darn new to me... maybe I am getting "older" than I thought!!!
> 
> Yes, the 5.3 used a PM GR starter that is pretty low on the amperage draw. You could probably fit 4 ATV batteries where one large truck battery fits.


Well if you lived in Maine you would understand that a 2000 is old. Most cars/truck, that age are rusted out.


----------



## Tirediron

LincTex said:


> Be careful, AGM batteries can "vent off" hydrogen and "dry out" if charged too fast, once they are "dry" there's no getting the electrolyte back.


How fast is too fast?? I started with the old 10 amp Torcan, and switched to a larger one , but set it to 2 amps, the battery "took" about 6 to 8 according to the guage, I put a newer automatic charger to avoid an overcharge.


----------



## cowboyhermit

Hope it works for you, I have seen deep cycle agm batteries stand up to a lot of damage, even one with a hole in the side that still worked

I have seen that needle on the charger bouncing around max on a dead battery, not a good feeling
One thing I have done that worked on completely flat batteries is to set the charger for 6 volts at first, let it stabilize there, then put it back to 12 for top up. Also had good luck with solar trickle charger, they can only put out so much.


----------



## LincTex

On old timer once told me a long time ago that you can undo some of the damage to a lead acid battery that has been completely discharged by charging it back up again really slowly. He said too many amps at first doesn't clean the plates off properly, so "dead spots" will be created on the plates where the sulfation is stuck onto, and they stay forever. 

I suppose it made a lot of sense at the time, so I always followed that advice and have been pretty happy.


----------



## helicopter5472

I have found that many if not most tossed batteries are because people have refilled them with tap water, let them sit for long periods of time discharged, or boiled the acid out till they die. Haven't had much luck making them work. I must be finding the wrong ones. (maybe taking them out of 60's junk vintage cars has something to do with it) Note to self; move to a late model junk yard or hit up NAPA


----------



## LincTex

helicopter5472 said:


> I must be finding the wrong ones. (maybe taking them out of 60's junk vintage cars has something to do with it)


One of the yellow EverStart MAXX batteries in my truck has been in there since early 2007. It was dead when I pulled it from the wrecking yard, but only one month old. I went to wally world and bought it's twin. They've been working side by side for 6 years now, no worries!


----------



## cowboyhermit

Batteries had been pretty hit and miss for us, for a while we were spending a fortune on good brand names of batteries and yet failures were really adding up. Just on the farm in vehicles/machines we have a couple dozen batteries so it can really add up.

We have cut our battery failures about in half and the cost even more so, I though I might put out some of the things that worked for anyone interested.

The biggest thing was we found a middle of the road, good quality battery in a standard size. Because it often gets -40 there is a big push to buy the most expensive battery with the most CCA, well we did this for awhile but found that even ones that cost twice as much were often failing sooner than the middle of the road ones with a decent CCA and reserve capacity. After inspecting a few it seems to be that in the attempt to get the maximum energy output they often sacrifice durability for surface area, and leave less room for deposits to collect without causing harm.
We got a lot more solar trickle chargers, mostly the ones you can pick up for $10-20. This helped a LOT with the batteries that were used very infrequently.
On some of our machines that are used very rarely I installed Anderson power poles (175A), so I could install or remove the battery in minutes or just pull the plug to prevent any slow drain.
The last thing we did was get rid of odd size batteries, we had nothing but problems with a tractor that used semi batteries and found when we swapped over to a regular battery, performance was not noticeably changed, but the batteries cost less than half John Deere used to like long skinny batteries, we got rid of those too though it meant installing completely new battery boxes.

Well that's all I can think of, maybe it will be useful to someone, keep in mind this is only referring to vehicle/machine batteries, deep cycle are a whole different ball of wax.


----------



## Caribou

Many years ago a friend told me to take my new batteries wash them with soapy water, rinse, and let dry. Then he said to tape up the terminals and spray the battery with a clear lacquer. He claimed this would double the life of a lead acid battery. It worked for me.


----------



## FrankW

A little late to the thread..
but if you can find batteries that were unused these years they will have still reatiend alot of charge and still work quite well after years of storage unattached to a draw.

Also marine style or Optima style dry batteries can last forever.


----------



## VUnder

I bought a welding machine brand new. The battery lasted eleven years. I could not believe it myself. But a lot of batteries play out from overcharging. You can put a baking soda/water mix in an old battery and clean it out this way. It gets the junk out between the plates. I want to try canning gel in the batteries, I heard it works fine. May be a good idea to clean a bunch of batteries out and keep the other stuff stored.


----------



## LincTex

cowboyhermit said:


> The last thing we did was get rid of odd size batteries, we had nothing but problems with a tractor that used semi batteries and found when we swapped over to a regular battery, performance was not noticeably changed, but the batteries cost less than half. John Deere used to like long skinny batteries, we got rid of those too though it meant installing completely new battery boxes.


EXCELLENT advice!

A local farm supply sells group 24 and 24F batteries on sale for $59. 700CCA and a very standard size. Moving up to group 34 costs another 30 bucks and only gets another 130 CCA!

Our 806 had the long skinny 6 volts and they never held up and were big $$$$, one good 12 volt spins it just fine!

Those group 8D "semi" batteries you speak of aren't anything magical for output despite their huge size.


----------



## Tirediron

One size for All makes for a lot easier battery buying and the 24 group does seem to come on sale cheap and often. Apparently there are only 2 manufacturers for most conventional lead acid batteries, Johnson controls and who ever make the Delco style with the "hydrometer eye". 
8D batteries are expensive, but after they stop releasing a cranking load, many time they are still good for RV type low draw applications.


----------



## cowboyhermit

Yeah, around here most batteries get migrated down the line as capacity diminishes. Start off in a high demand vehicle, then maybe on a small engine, last stop is usually on a solar panel running a fencer or something with a low amperage. Well, last stop is actually at the recyclers to get the last few $$$ back.

The Delco's are mainly what we had bad luck with but I hate saying anything bad about them because they performed decent and after that we tried other supposedly top quality batteries with no better results.
Btw, we use UFA batteries now, not going to mean anything to Americans and others are not as fond of them as I am so didn't bother mentioning the name. Never did figure out who was making them for sure.


----------



## ContinualHarvest

Caribou said:


> You could keep one or more dry lead/acid batteries and only add the fluid years later.


This is possible. Lead acid batteries operate on an equilibrium of ions. Given the correct chemistry, you could be able to rebuild one as long as you had access to some chemicals and a bit of know how. We learned a bit about it last semester in our electrochemistry unit. I can only assume, I'll be learning more about it next year when I take physics.


----------



## cowboyhermit

Started a thread on diy lead acid batteries for anyone with an interest/experience, very in depth description of the process so far

http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f16/diy-lead-acid-battery-19558/#post259150


----------



## Tirediron

Well apparently the AGM battery that I "rescued" is junk, after several days on the charge, it tested a bit weak with the load tester, no terrible just a bit weak, but after it sat for a few day I tried it in a truck, it didn't even light the idiot lights.


----------



## LincTex

Tirediron said:


> Well apparently the AGM battery that I "rescued" is junk... after it sat for a few days I tried it in a truck, it didn't even light the idiot lights.


Sorry 

Atwood's Ranch and Home has group 24F batteries for $49 this week.


----------



## Tirediron

It was scrap when I found it, I can usually get at least a 1 in 4 rescue rate on scrap batteries, especially if they aren't frozen


----------



## cowboyhermit

The vast majority of my experience with AGM batteries is with deep cycles and they are quite different than cranking batts. However what I have found in general is that the AGM's are much less likely to have problems and can tolerate abuse (complete discharge, physical damage, etc) very well. But when they die they are dead. We have brought a few back but not like with flooded batts. I think most of the problems that are cured with our flooded batts never happen in the first place with the AGM's.


----------



## Tirediron

This particular AGM has had a Hard life, it has been used in an extreme Off road race truck and probably been discharged too many times, not to mention shaken. So this particular fail doesn't change my view of AGM batteries.


----------

