# Shooting with cold fingers.



## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

Every now and then you find a huge oversight in your prepps...

In the northern US SNOW is a ordinary part of life, for at least four months out of the year. I have always posited this to be a good thing, post SHTF. Snow has the ability to cripple transportation and kill those unprepared to deal with it. And so for the most part snow is my ally. If I can get to my BOL before it snows winter should guarantee that the golden horde from the city never makes it to my door. But after Christmas, having just received the first serious snowfall, I realized that snow was a two edged sword. Although it might deter the unprepared it will also tempt my group to abandon our security plan to retreat to the warmth of our buildings. In order to maintain our security plan, some sort of sheltered fighting positions will be necessary. Also, although MOST will be deterred by the snow those who are not will be better prepared, and perhaps more dangerous. After Christmas I wadon't out shooting my Christmas present when it hit me...I never shoother outdoors in the winter. My hands were quickly frozen and becoming useless, and though I learned that my warm barrel makes an effective hand warmer I wondered if anyone else had any thoughts or tricks of the trade?

So the question is can anyone provide any thoughts on shooting in the winter. I brought shooting gloves out bUT needed something with insulation. 

Also, any though on building fighting positions, or LPOPs that are both warm as well as concealed (i.e. no fire)?

Finally any thoughts on security in general during the cold months? I would particularly appreciate thoughts from winter soldiers. 

It strikes me that this may be an honest to goodness virgin topic, since I never remember seeing anything like it. Perhaps it will be helpful!


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

I have done a bit of winter hunting. It is not just your hands that you have to protect. Certainly good gloves are necessary. Something with insulated gauntlets helps. That extra layer around the wrists where the arteries are close to the surface aids you significantly. 

Multiple layers are important. Next to the skin you want something like polypropylene that wicks the moisture away. Stay away from cotton as cotton takes forever to dry and water will transfer heat 25 times faster than air. Another good standby is wool.

Another thing you will want is a wind blocking outer layer. I have used rain gear to some benefit but they hold in the sweat too well. I currently have insulated coveralls that work pretty well. My all time favorite is a Mustang Suit. This is a neoprene foam coverall that is approved by the Coast Guard as a lifejacket. I control my temperature with the zipper.

Don't sweat! If you find yourself sweating slow down or take off a layer. If you allow yourself to perspire then when you slow down the moisture will wick away your body heat and you will get cold. 

Good socks and winter boots are a must. An extra pair of boot liners will go a long way as you can let one set of liners dry as you wear the other.

I wear a fur hat with flaps that can be pulled over the ears. The head has little natural insulation so a good hat is important.


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## Balls004 (Feb 28, 2015)

The experts you seek are all Russian Vets from WWII... or members of the Screaming Eagles at Bastogne.

Cold is a secondary enemy. Not only does it dull the senses and slow reaction times, it reduces the will to fight. Survival from the cold becomes more important than the mission, until you factor in the "why we are fighting" part of the equation. Protecting others (loved ones or compatriots) in extreme conditions changes the dynamics of what's possible in cold weather.

Attacking forces will generally lose the will to fight in cold weather, unless they can quickly achieve victory. The defending force, while usually immobile, has an advantage, because they are typically defending home and hearth, or at least brethren. Prolonged battles in cold weather typically favor the defender.

There really is no magic bullet here. Even if you have Tier 1 equipment for winter operations, it all comes down to what an individual is willing to or can tolerate. Cold is going to be cold. The motivation to defend against any attacker is up to each individuals dedication to defense in the situation, based on their dedication to the cause at hand. 

It isn't really an equipment issue, but more of a "I've got to get this done" issue.


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

Padre said:


> Also, any though on building fighting positions, or LPOPs that are both warm as well as concealed (i.e. no fire)?


I'm speculating here, but I think that if the scenario presents itself, digging the LP/OP into the ground will help because earth is a natural thermal regulator, true having a cavity allows cold air to just fall in, but at least you have the insulation of the earth walls instead of a make shift duck blind that's 100% exposed to the elements.

Also, I think looking at how to build a fire that produces no smoke would be valuable. There's all kinds of highly efficient fire solutions, but if there's one that produces no smoke then you could minimize sight and smell give-aways to the LP/OP. if you can't do a totally smoke/light free fire at night, maybe you could do one during the day and use that to heat up large rocks? not huge boulders but at least very large river rocks that could be moved back and forth to the LP/OP? this seems very undesirable because it will only make wearing a path to the post even more obvious, but at some point decisions need to be made about whether it's better to compromise security and accommodate needs, or perhaps let the LP/OP succumb to the elements and then they are so numb that they may as well not even be there, even worse if they actually freeze to death.

how much time do you have in the summer to prepare this? maybe a very nice chimney could be built and buried and laid in the LP/OP sight and field of fire... bad guys assume they know the location of the post... oops, nobody home there, but just 25 yards away... adios, sayonara, buenes noches, aufwiedersehen... sucks to be a raider.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Man, that is a BIG topic for me. I have been hunting and trapping in temps down to -40 for my whole life, yes there are a million tricks and strategies to staying comfortable. This will be all over the place but here goes.

You DO get used to it, have seen *many* hunters come up here from the (warmer) states and they simply can't handle it, but the ones who keep at it, even by the end of a week have developed some real cold tolerance. Our bodies are very adaptable if our minds don't cave, they can redirect blood flow and do all kinds of things to keep us working.

It is rather cliche, but whether through layers, zippers, or flaps, you NEED to be able to constantly adjust your clothing to stay comfortable and NOT sweat too much. Dressing for sitting in a stand or blind (or hole in the ground) is a world away from what one wears when keeping a steady pace, even walking and if that isn't addressed things just don't go well.

So, as for truly staying warm in a worst case situation, which is sitting in a wind. You need a solid outer layer to stop the breeze, even a small amount of air moving through insulation reduces it's effectiveness immensely. Then you want some sort of insulation layer close to your body, lots of good options here. Over that go the regular clothes and then ideally IMO, a full length set of insulated coveralls with two way zippers on legs and front. It is possible to wear a parka over that, or a down or wool vest underneath. Toque or hat with good coverage, and possibly a hood over that, peripheral vision being adequate for the situation. Your feet will be one of the first things to get cold if you are sitting, so socks and boots are paramount, as is encouraging blood flow by keeping flexing or moving, and occasionally stretching knees. In worst case situations, TWO sets of gloves may be the best bet, thin and tight fitting pair inside of a larger and warmer pair. That way one can easily slip off the outer pair in a pocket and still have protection.

If that fails, there is still TONS that can be done with equipment. Heated EVERYTHING is available these days, socks, gloves, jackets, with rechargeable batteries can be bought reasonably that will make anyone comfortable. Another route is disposable warmers, on top of the typical hand and sole warmers of the past, these are available for every application, and now they have stick-on ones. They are dirt cheap, but disposable, so in a shtf situation they would likely have to be rationed to the worst situations, or bought in large quantities beforehand. Then there are the old fashioned fuel burning warmers, these are the least versatile but they work great for keeping hands warm, kept in a pocket(s) so hands can be warmed up when required.

Personally, I have gone full circle through all the high tech gear ($$$) and am now back to mostly down and wool for the winter with some leather and cotton in appropriate applications (for me). I am out there everyday, and I love it


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## bigg777 (Mar 18, 2013)

I use the disposable hand and toe warmers all the time if I'll be out in the cold for a couple of hours or more, post SHTF, I'm planning on using heated rocks for this purpose(not in the boots, but under them), they won't last as long but it's better than nothing.


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

So much good stuff said in here.
The disposable handwarmer are certainly an excellent method to get ready for an attack (yes attack everyone here talks about defense but the best defense is attack)

(For defense they are not sustainable to use IMO.)

Most important pother things ahve been said.
Must dress in layers.
Even if its 20F out you will cook in clothes that keep you warm when you suddenly conduct fire and movement one of the most taxing things a human can do short of boxing.
Must have your layers with zippers or buttons in front so you can open up down to your t shirt in a pinch to prevent excessive seating


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

As far as shooting goes, I was watching an all day TV show on the rise and fall of Hitler. And in the 5th hour the subject was the German invasion of Russia and a detailed account of what happen including how the soldiers survived the cold.

I can't remember if it was the Germans or the Russians but one of them equipped their soldiers with special triggers for their guns. It was an attachment to the trigger guard that allowed the soldier to fire the weapon with thick mittens on. It was a lever that extended down the stock maybe 8 inches and all they had to do was squeeze.

On the other items, I had a job that required me to be outside all winter and I did this job for 5 years so I got fairly good at winter dressing. I agree with most of the other posts, but what I can add is to never use heat from any source except your own body heat. The human body is and amazing thing it can adapt to the cold if you let it. I always dressed to be a little cold, that way I never sweat and I never got really cold. Sweat is the kiss of death, as soon as you start to sweat then the only way to recover is to get out of the cold.

You have to except the cold. If the body knows that it will be cold it makes some internal changes that makes it easier to be in the cold. At the beginning of the cold season I would always be cold no matter what I wore. But after a few weeks I discovered that I started to get warmer and even in 20 degree temps I was comfortable in just a sweat shirt where I needed a winter coat just a few weeks ago. You have to be in the cold for your body to adapt.


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## TimB (Nov 11, 2008)

I usually only wear a single pair of cotton jersey gloves down here when hunting. If it's going to be really cold, I also wear a pair of shooting mittens over the gloves. Mine are similar to these but have no fingers- just the flap that folds back to let your fingers out.

http://www.basspro.com/ScentLok-Fleece-PopTop-Gloves-for-Men/product/15021208415359/


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

Tweto said:


> ... And in the 5th hour the subject was the German invasion of Russia and a detailed account of what happen including how the soldiers survived the cold.
> 
> I can't remember if it was the Germans or the Russians but one of them equipped their soldiers with special triggers for their guns. It was an attachment to the trigger guard that allowed the soldier to fire the weapon with thick mittens on. It was a lever that extended down the stock maybe 8 inches and all they had to do was squeeze.


A lot of the better ARs have a pin on the trigger guard to allow for gloved hands. I seem to recall the Valmets rifles (AK variant) had a bunch of built in features for cold weather battle.

Interestingly, the Soviets lost a bunch of soldiers to freezing the first winter before returning to their historic roots with the issuance and training on the usage of the greatcoats. Their winter uniform was very basic: cotton long underwear, insulated boots, quilted wool trousers, wool shirt, the greatcoat, a hat, and gloves. Scarfs were also used, but I don't know if they were actually issued. I believe they buttoned and unbuttoned the greatcoat depending of whether they were static or moving to regulate their body temperature.

I have one of the replica Russian (fake) fur hats I bought for cold weather, but it doesn't get cold enough very often here in Texas. I've worn it when it was 20° F, and it was way too warm. So I ended up sweating within minutes.

As for the Germans, all they had were summer uniforms that first winter due to a bad command decision and supply constraints.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

We have a winter qualifier every year. Shovel off the range then shoot 100-150 rounds. Must wear all normal winter duty gear. Same time/accuracy requirements apply. One thing many of my officers will do is to wear the 7 mil black nitrile gloves under their thinner duty gloves. They claim it helps with shooting and manipulating their handguns, but also keeps their hands warm. Never tried it myself as I love the cold and it has never really bothered me to shoot in the winter with only my leather frisk gloves. Just went through 250 rounds outdoors yesterday afternoon with no gloves on, but I did have hand warmers in my pockets.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

Sentry18 said:


> We have a winter qualifier every year. Shovel off the range then shoot 100-150 rounds. Must wear all normal winter duty gear. Same time/accuracy requirements apply. One thing many of my officers will do is to wear the 7 mil black nitrile gloves under their thinner duty gloves. They claim it helps with shooting and manipulating their handguns, but also keeps their hands warm. Never tried it myself as I love the cold and it has never really bothered me to shoot in the winter with only my leather frisk gloves. Just went through 250 rounds outdoors yesterday afternoon with no gloves on, but I did have hand warmers in my pockets.


I have tried nitrile gloves under regular gloves and I found the my hands would sweat and the sweat would just pool in the nitrile gloves. My hands started to freeze faster then if I had no gloves.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

I have spent most of my adult life fixing machinery in the cold, Canada Cold, everybody is different, when it comes to their tolerance, but believe me it is far easier to kepp your trigger finger warm, than it is to change points on a generator engine at 25 below. 
I never tried the hi tech stuff, it doesn't like welding slag or engine oil, And I am about ready to slap people for the Cotton kills crap, cotton is fine not paying attention to your body kills. 

I find insulated bib overalls with full leg zippers and a good long front zipper to be a lot more functional when dealing with the changing insulation needs, Boots with good insulation are really important as well as keeping that insulation dry.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

Balls004 said:


> Attacking forces will generally lose the will to fight in cold weather, unless they can quickly achieve victory. The defending force, while usually immobile, has an advantage, because they are typically defending home and hearth, or at least brethren. Prolonged battles in cold weather typically favor the defender.
> ...
> It isn't really an equipment issue, but more of a "I've got to get this done" issue.


Yeah...that's what I always thought. I think I imagined and hoped that once the first 4 feet of snow covered the ground and no utility crews opened the roads, I could sit back with my group, eat my preps and essentially hibernate until spring came along.

My concern is not so much that I will be attacked by 10th mountain, but that people in my neck of the woods travel by snow. On snow machines, snow shoes, and skis. If some of those people are REALLY hungry, perhaps it's not smart to pull back my defenses to the warmth of home. But if I maintain some sort of security perimeter how do I keep those guys warm and in fighting shape.

So s couple of thoughts I had thinking about the question: 1) i am guessing shorter shifts would be a must. 
2) I like the idea of a dug out for a lp/op, perhaps insulated with branches and a couple survival blankets to control heat loss. Perhaps even a real structure like a ice fishing shed.
3) I am wondering about maybe using heated stones for a heat source...

4) I guess I gotta get out shooting with my gloves on and see how that goes. I have hunted some but never when it was cold enough to impair my ability to hold on to or pull the trigger on the rifle.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

Sentry18 said:


> We have a winter qualifier every year. Shovel off the range then shoot 100-150 rounds. Must wear all normal winter duty gear. Same time/accuracy requirements apply. One thing many of my officers will do is to wear the 7 mil black nitrile gloves under their thinner duty gloves. They claim it helps with shooting and manipulating their handguns, but also keeps their hands warm. Never tried it myself as I love the cold and it has never really bothered me to shoot in the winter with only my leather frisk gloves. Just went through 250 rounds outdoors yesterday afternoon with no gloves on, but I did have hand warmers in my pockets.


I am really impressed your department makes you do this...my experience with LEOs is that they are a mixed bag...some train hard, in fact I train with some of the hard trainers, some don't. Haven't been hugely impressed by what local departments make their guys do for training.

On an unrelated note I passed through an airport the other day and was suprised to see the Police carrying what looked like integrally suprised MP5s. It makes s lot more sense than NatGuard with M4s, and with the active shooter threat from terrorists, having a subgun might prove useful...that said I couldn't help thinking I hope they are trained with those things...at least they weren'the muzzling people like the Italian Carbonari and soldiers do. I once saw an Italian Leo drop the mag accidently out of his subgun...funny! Scary funny
:surrender:


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## bigg777 (Mar 18, 2013)

Another cold weather shooting tip is, use Glo-Mitts, those fingerless gloves with the flap over mitten cover. I use Glo-Mitts exclusively while out hunting in the cold.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

Padre said:


> I am really impressed your department makes you do this...my experience with LEOs is that they are a mixed bag...some train hard, in fact I train with some of the hard trainers, some don't. Haven't been hugely impressed by what local departments make their guys do for training.
> 
> On an unrelated note I passed through an airport the other day and was suprised to see the Police carrying what looked like integrally suprised MP5s. It makes s lot more sense than NatGuard with M4s, and with the active shooter threat from terrorists, having a subgun might prove useful...that said I couldn't help thinking I hope they are trained with those things...at least they weren'the muzzling people like the Italian Carbonari and soldiers do. I once saw an Italian Leo drop the mag accidently out of his subgun...funny! Scary funny
> :surrender:


When I started all we did was line up, shoot on command, reload as a group, shoot some more and count up our own scores. Likely the same course of fire developed when they carried wheel guns. To make a long story short, eventually I became the Lead FI and made many improvements. Most of which involved movement, malfunction drills, stressed reloads and target identification. After being promoted the next Lead FI made a lot more improvements before he left a few years later to be a sponsored professional shooter. The next guy came in and took it to an even higher level and so on. No we have 3 live fire qualifiers a year (summer, winter and night), a one week firearms refresher (advanced handgun and rifle) taught 1:1, 2 annual force on force trainings, 2 annual FATS (Fire Arms Training Simulator) trainings and a manual of arms training where the officer has to demonstrate familiarly with all weapon platforms. We devote a fairly large amount of resources to our program and routinely win top gun awards at the state academy during multi-agency trainings/competitions. We also get requests from municipal and county agencies to come in help them revamp their programs. Unfortunately many of them don't have the budgets needed to achieve much more than a moderate program. Still better than standing in a line however.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

Padre said:


> Yeah...that's what I always thought. I think I imagined and hoped that once the first 4 feet of snow covered the ground and no utility crews opened the roads, I could sit back with my group, eat my preps and essentially hibernate until spring came along.
> 
> My concern is not so much that I will be attacked by 10th mountain, but that people in my neck of the woods travel by snow. On snow machines, snow shoes, and skis. If some of those people are REALLY hungry, perhaps it's not smart to pull back my defenses to the warmth of home. But if I maintain some sort of security perimeter how do I keep those guys warm and in fighting shape.
> 
> ...


Instead of posting people in the cold to watch the parameter why not put some wireless video cameras that can be mounted in near by trees and then keep every body warm in the cabin. Also there are all kinds of parameter alarms like the 12 gauge alarm that would make so much noise that it may even keep the intruders from entering. I'm using trail cams in several locations on my property just for indications of people that are casing my property.


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## cantinawest (Nov 9, 2011)

*Korean war winter casualties*

There are many a Korean War veterans that can tell what it is like to fight in -40 F with hundreds of thousands of Chinese troops falling upon them in waves and weapons and machinery malfunctioning due to the extreme cold.

Many weapons were frozen and useless when soldiers and marines tried to use them against the enemy.

My fear when stationed in Germany in the mid 80's was that the Russians would use the dead of winter to attack the NATO forces, if they ever did attack. 
That was what helped them turn back the Nazi invasion.

Russians were probably more used to the cold than most of us American Servicemen.

I grew up in heavy winter territory, but I still hated the cold and hated it just that much more on guard duty at Graf-Hoensfeld at -35F


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

*Cold Fingers*

There are people that can adjust to the cold and there is ME! At 50 degrees my hands start to go numb.vract: I don't start to perspire until the temp is above 90 degrees.:2thumb: Now you understand why I am located in Arizona. Granted the winter nights can get cold (my concept of cold - low to mid teens). I would not survive a real winter, so many of you deal with but I will make a great desert warrior! I hope to never, ever see the white fluffy stuff again. Loving Arizona. :cheers:


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

tmttactical said:


> There are people that can adjust to the cold and there is ME! At 50 degrees my hands start to go numb.vract: I don't start to perspire until the temp is above 90 degrees.:2thumb: Now you understand why I am located in Arizona. Granted the winter nights can get cold (my concept of cold - low to mid teens). I would not survive a real winter, so many of you deal with but I will make a great desert warrior! I hope to never, ever see the white fluffy stuff again. Loving Arizona. :cheers:


I completely understand, I can't not handle temps above 80 degrees. my perfect day is 50f and sunny. Above 80 I just sweat continually. I also enjoy in a sick way temps below zero with the wind blowing at 50mph or higher and snowing so hard you can't see your hand in front of your. I would go out in it for hours and sometimes just sit in a drift and watch.

We went to Hawaii for a few weeks and I couldn't stand it, it was always above 80 and in the middle of the day it was 90-100 every day. High humidity and lack of AC at the condo we were stay at was unbearable. I have no plans on ever going back.


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## sgtusmc98 (Sep 8, 2013)

I didn't see it mentioned so sorry if it's a repeat but the H & K usp series of pistol has an oversized trigger guard for gloves, it's factory, don't know why no one else I know of doesn't do it, can't spin them on your finger like the old west very well, maybe that's why. I haven't looked at my AR but with the m-16 a2 you could push a pin to drop the trigger guard if you had gloves on, again it was nothing special.


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

Tweto said:


> Instead of posting people in the cold to watch the parameter why not put some wireless video cameras that can be mounted in near by trees and then keep every body warm in the cabin. Also there are all kinds of parameter alarms like the 12 gauge alarm that would make so much noise that it may even keep the intruders from entering. I'm using trail cams in several locations on my property just for indications of people that are casing my property.


putting all your shooters in one basket is just as bad as putting all your eggs in one basket 

I would also be very careful of some kind of structure that prohibits the good guys from seeing out, while allowing the bad guys to sneak up in without being seen.

that's a great place to help introduce the night vision cam's etc if... IF.. you can work them at the hut, if you cant' its.. no bueno.

a VERY well trained dog would be ideal there too. a soft growl and not barking would be perfect, and then the hut calls in, we're about to be attacked, and they go full out rock 'n roll


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

Dakine said:


> putting all your shooters in one basket is just as bad as putting all your eggs in one basket
> 
> I would also be very careful of some kind of structure that prohibits the good guys from seeing out, while allowing the bad guys to sneak up in without being seen.
> 
> ...


If you did a good parameter security job I don't understand how the bad guys would get close with out you knowing it. Multiple lines of alarms and cameras with motion detection technology would work well. In the movies, they always get around the security unnoticed, but real security is beyond valuable. A few trained dogs would be icing on the cake.

My view on this is that every one has already been there a few months. It would be impossible to keep 24/7 guards posted and alert. I would trust hard security over humans in that situation. Besides, you don't even know if any one is casing your location.

If there is snow on the ground then it will be easy to see if any unauthorized probing beyond the parameter is happening by the foot prints. If you see evidence of probing then post human security 24/7. Another way to see if any one is probing is to mount 2 stealth cams at distances away from the compound. Always mount 2 cameras from different directions in each location. In case one of the cameras is spotted there is another one. Very few people would suspect 2 cameras.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

I have said it before, I will say it again: automated sentry guns! All of the killing, none of the frost bite.


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## Balls004 (Feb 28, 2015)

Sentry18 said:


> I have said it before, I will say it again: automated sentry guns! All of the killing, none of the frost bite.


The only chance I stand of being able to get a couple of these is if Trump gets elected... I think I've found my candidate!:melikey:


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

Sentry18 said:


> I have said it before, I will say it again: automated sentry guns! All of the killing, none of the frost bite.


So that's the new Sentry gun. I thought you were getting a pistol.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

Sentry18 said:


> I have said it before, I will say it again: automated sentry guns! All of the killing, none of the frost bite.


I think the gun is Sentry. He's been fooling us for years, he's really a computer imbedded in the fire control box. It's a brave new world.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Cold Weather*

The recognized experts in cold weather fighting were the GI's that fought during the freezing weather in Germany.

My dad told me that to dig a fox hole, they fired a clip of M1 ammo straight down into the ground.

They used the entrenching tool to remove several scoops of soil and put a 1/4 pound charge of TNT in the hole and covered it back up.

They lit the fuse and retreated about fifty feet and laid prone until it exploded.

Then they could dig a fox hole.

Dad had two pair of wool socks.

He wore one pair on his feet and the other pair over each shoulder, under his clothes to dry them.

Once a day, he changed them and for a brief time his feet were dry.

This prevented "Trench Foot".

Every GI carried a Zippo Lighter.

You could refuel it by tying the wick to a string and lowering it into the gas tank on a vehicle .

They slept in fox holes with a two man shelter half tent pitched and camouflaged over the top.

You needed three men in a fox hole to keep from freezing.

I think they snuggled a lot .


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