# LEO non-SHTF question



## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

So... I am reading some prepper fiction on my day off. Great little series called 299 days. And I have been getting a few ideas, but one of them that INITIALLY I thought was a GREAT IDEA, seems to be universally poo pooed on the net.

The idea was buying one of these CCW Badges that look like cop badges but say NOTHING about being a cop on them. 

Initially I thought if I ever had to use my side arm in defense of my life being able to display a badge might calm a nervous LEO down about a "man with a gun" long enough for him to verify my CCW, and discover I am not a threat, particularly if I had to hold an assailant at gun point. 

My home town boys in blue are class acts, but I can't say as much for other departments and some of the state boys, so it always worries me that if I did need to use my gun I might be shot by the cavalry.

Lots of comments that its infantile, which I grant it would be if it was about showing it off, my thought is to have it in case I need it. 

Others suggested it might be illegal but there are all sorts of rent a cops and security folk, not to mention Bail Enforcement types, who use badges. I can't imagine that its illegal unless it says POLICE or you pass it off as if it did. 

All that being said, many police act not based on clearly expressed rationally explainable understandings of the law but based on feelings. So I am interested in you "feelings" too.

If you concur that the badge is a bad idea do you have any suggestions both in the KIA situation as well as the assailant at gun point, how would you recommend I transition away from my gun.

Hopefully it never happens, but if it does and I need to deal with LE what does one do? Also be interested in the thoughts of anyone who has been in this situation (preferably not as the assailant). :scratch


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

I have had this discussion before. In my department we are taught to treat an unknown LEO (or anyone displaying badge or police ID clothing) like any unknown person & officer safety threat until their ID is verified, the scene evaluated and a supervisory officer authorizes that persons release. In the case of a shooting the officers would likely hold you at gun point and provide loud verbal commands. You would be disarmed, handcuffed and secured. Even if you were an LEO wearing a "POLICE" coat and displaying a badge or an armed security officer, bail enforcement agent, armored car driver, etc., etc. Even if you were just some guy off the street. When you roll into an unknown you treat it and everyone there as a threat; badge or no badge.

Now we also teach our officers that if they are involved in a shooting or lethal incident off duty or in plain clothes to immediately dial 911 and provide a brief overview of the incident and to describe their clothing and physical characteristics. If they are safe (as in the bad guys have been killed or disarmed) the second the squad cars begin to roll on scene they should turn their badge around (so it is on their back and not their chest), place their gun in a secure holster or safely on the ground (after dropping mag and removing round from chamber), take several steps back, get down on their knees and interlock their fingers on top of their heads. Make no attempts to move unless instructed, comply with all instructions and the second they are approached by an LEO to say "Officer John Smith, State Police, Badge Number 213". Then prepare to be handcuffed as things get worked out.

So now lets talk about Average Joe on the street with a CCW badge, the police response would be the same, but Avg Joe's response might not be. That may create more concern and a greater potential for something to go wrong than not having a badge. Being adrenalin pumped (on both sides of this) causes little things to seem like big things. My other concern would be after the fact. Some police investigators might have issue with that CCW badge, but Lawyers would have a field day. I can easily see that badge becoming the basis for claims of cowboy vigilantism. If its a case of judge by 12 than carried by 6, then who cares, but it may taint an otherwise righteous shoot.

So my personal opinion is that there is too much downside and not enough upside. Just make sure you are as non-threatening as possible as the LEO's roll up and then be sure and tell your tale with all due fear and justification.

This may be a better option and will definitely grab the LEO's attention. By the way they make them for police too. They fold up and go into a little pouch on your belt. You just grab the tab, pull and throw over your head. http://www.dsmsafety.com/ccw.html


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

Sentry18 said:


> I have had this discussion before. In my department we are taught to treat an unknown LEO (or anyone displaying badge or police ID clothing) like any unknown person & officer safety threat until their ID is verified, the scene evaluated and a supervisory officer authorizes that persons release. In the case of a shooting the officers would likely hold you at gun point and provide loud verbal commands. You would be disarmed, handcuffed and secured. Even if you were an LEO wearing a "POLICE" coat and displaying a badge or an armed security officer, bail enforcement agent, armored car driver, etc., etc. Even if you were just some guy off the street. When you roll into an unknown you treat it and everyone there as a threat; badge or no badge.
> 
> Now we also teach our officers that if they are involved in a shooting or lethal incident off duty or in plain clothes to immediately dial 911 and provide a brief overview of the incident and to describe their clothing and physical characteristics. If they are safe (as in the bad guys have been killed or disarmed) the second the squad cars begin to roll on scene they should turn their badge around (so it is on their back and not their chest), place their gun in a secure holster or safely on the ground (after dropping mag and removing round from chamber), take several steps back, get down on their knees and interlock their fingers on top of their heads. Make no attempts to move unless instructed, comply with all instructions and the second they are approached by an LEO to say "Officer John Smith, State Police, Badge Number 213". Then prepare to be handcuffed as things get worked out.
> 
> So now lets talk about Average Joe on the street with a CCW badge, the police response would be the same, but Avg Joe's response might not be. That may create more concern and a greater potential for something to go wrong than not having a badge. Being adrenalin pumped (on both sides of this) causes little things to seem like big things. My other concern would be after the fact. Some police investigators might have issue with that CCW badge, but Lawyers would have a field day. I can easily see that badge becoming the basis for claims of cowboy vigilantism. If its a case of judge by 12 than carried by 6, then who cares, but it may taint an otherwise righteous shoot.


That policy makes sense. But my question is not so much about policy but application. Lets say I was a LEO, can you honestly say that seeing a POLICE badge wouldn't make you or any other cop you know slow down a little and not jump to assumptions? Can you honestly say that I would be less safe with that badge.

Your answer makes me think the answer is: no. As you admit, you were instructed to display your badge if ever involved in a shoot, if the badge didn't offer you protection (IN THAT MOMENT, as latter on everything can be sorted out) why do it in the first place? I mean you guys have been known to give each other a break from time to time....



> So my personal opinion is that there is too much downside and not enough upside. Just make sure you are as non-threatening as possible as the LEO's roll up and then be sure and tell your tale with all due fear and justification.


I don't plan on telling any tale without my lawyer present, I will tell them who I am and about the status (safe) of my gun, where they might find any evidence, and if there are any other perps at or fled from the scene, but my lawyer recommends that I don't say a word about what happened and that seems smart to me, you can't misinterpret or twist words I haven't said.

My big concern is getting to that point where I can surrender my gun (as evidence) and assert my fifth amendment protections safely. So unless there is an actual law that I am breaking I am not worried about that, what I am worried about is my safety in that initial encounter with police. As you say if its a choice between jury of 12 or carried by 6, I choose the 12. I have thought through the legal ramifications, and I am willing to be a test case all the way to the supreme court if I have to. I believe my lawyer friends would have a field day defending me in court, I make a very sympathetic defendant .

Also, I am not implying that you guys are trigger happy or anything, I am just acknowledging that it is a tense situation.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Good instructions*



Sentry18 said:


> I have had this discussion before. In my department we are taught to treat an unknown LEO (or anyone displaying badge or police ID clothing) like any unknown person & officer safety threat until their ID is verified, the scene evaluated and a supervisory officer authorizes that persons release. In the case of a shooting the officers would likely hold you at gun point and provide loud verbal commands. You would be disarmed, handcuffed and secured. Even if you were an LEO wearing a "POLICE" coat and displaying a badge or an armed security officer, bail enforcement agent, armored car driver, etc., etc. Even if you were just some guy off the street. When you roll into an unknown you treat it and everyone there as a threat; badge or no badge.
> 
> Now we also teach our officers that if they are involved in a shooting or lethal incident off duty or in plain clothes to immediately dial 911 and provide a brief overview of the incident and to describe their clothing and physical characteristics. If they are safe (as in the bad guys have been killed or disarmed) the second the squad cars begin to roll on scene they should turn their badge around (so it is on their back and not their chest), place their gun in a secure holster or safely on the ground (after dropping mag and removing round from chamber), take several steps back, get down on their knees and interlock their fingers on top of their heads. Make no attempts to move unless instructed, comply with all instructions and the second they are approached by an LEO to say "Officer John Smith, State Police, Badge Number 213". Then prepare to be handcuffed as things get worked out.
> 
> ...


These are good instructions.

Unless you are a security guard,( in which case you should also be in uniform), you should not hava a badge.

If you find yourself in the possition of holding an assalant at gunpoint, when you call 911, be sure to tell the 911 opereratorwho you are and what you look like and tell her you need an officer to take control of the suspect.

Tell her that you are not a threat to the officers and that you will comply with their instructions as soon as they arrive.

If the dispatcher tells you to put your weapon on the ground before they get there don't do it!


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

Sentry18 said:


> This may be a better option and will definitely grab the LEO's attention. By the way they make them for police too. They fold up and go into a little pouch on your belt. You just grab the tab, pull and throw over your head. http://www.dsmsafety.com/ccw.html


The question remains what would calm down a cop more, this or seeing a badge, even if the two said the same thing. Precisely because you can't immediately read a badge I would think the badge would be better.



BillM said:


> Unless you are a security guard,( in which case you should also be in uniform), you should not hava a badge.


Why not if there is no law against it? Does it make me MORE, LESS, or the same, safe when the police respond. I am not asking for legal advice about what might hypothetically happen when I get to a nice safe court house (where I am very much at home), just about the initial encounter. So far no one has addressed that.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

Also the other thought is, seeing a badge, I am less likely to be described as a crazed man with a gun by witnesses calling the police.

I get the impression from many threads that cops don't like it because a civilian (one of the riff-raff) are claiming the protection of the thin blue line, that cops treat me with the same respect and deference that they would treat another cop with, i.e. innocent until proven guilty (which is all I want). 

So my question remains, what is in your mind, honestly, when you come to a scene and there is a man:

with a holstered gun and hands raised and a badge vs the same without the badge

or even more dangerously:

with a badge and a drawn gun pointed at a disarmed individual vs without the badge.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*No better impression*



Padre said:


> The question remains what would calm down a cop more, this or seeing a badge, even if the two said the same thing. Precisely because you can't immediately read a badge I would think the badge would be better.
> 
> Why not if there is no law against it? Does it make me MORE, LESS, or the same, safe when the police respond. I am not asking for legal advice about what might hypothetically happen when I get to a nice safe court house (where I am very much at home), just about the initial encounter. So far no one has addressed that.


You never get a second chance to make a first impression.

The police are not going to shoot you as long as you don't point the weapon at them and you follow their instructions.

However, what the officer writes in his police report regarding what he saw and hears is fodder for the lawyers and the courts.

He will be a witness and will give his opinion and it will be given great weight.

Many officers would be highly whizzed if you flashed a fake badge, ( even if it just identified you as a CCW holder).

It isn't more likely to keep you from getting shot neither is the shoulder banner.

The last thing you would want to appear to be is a Wantabe .

George Zimmerman is in enough trouble as it is. All he did was to identify himself as the Captin of the "Neighborhood watch", ( a police sponcered orginization).

He has been painted as a "Wantabe" with a gun looking for trouble who killed an unarmed youth.

Self defence dosn't end when the trigger is pulled, it just begins.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

BillM said:


> George Zimmerman is in enough trouble as it is. All he did was to identify himself as the Captin of the "Neighborhood watch", ( a police sponcered orginization).
> 
> He has been painted as a "Wantabe" with a gun looking for trouble who killed an unarmed youth.
> 
> Self defence dosn't end when the trigger is pulled, it just begins.


George Zimmerman was going to walk until race baiting PC crud caused him to be arrested for political reasons, and even so, not having seen the discovery, I bet he will walk anyway, if nothing else on appeal...

BTW its not a fake badge, its a real badge, just not a police badge... 

I think you answered my question.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

I have had the pleasure of working with security in the close vicinity of a number of heads of state, and although I always had the proper credentials, its quite frequent that cool cats walk right through security by looking the part and get way too close. A little decoy like a badge that says nothing goes a long way...






*If you've never seen this, this is hilarious, disrespectful, but hilarious.*


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## SlobberToofTigger (Dec 27, 2011)

Padre,
I am going to give you some advice you are not going to like so you might was well stop reading. In fact you are going to try and argue against this advice because you did not come to this discussion looking for information and advice but to justify your own position.

1. Sentry has provided you with the rules of the game. And yes you are playing a game. He has told you exactly what you need to know to come out on top every time in your specific scenario. If you follow his advice you win. If you do not follow his advice you may eventually win but your path to victory will be longer and harder.

2. Social engineering does work. But without the years of experience and training in social engineering that you do not have, to understand why it works in one situation vs why it does not work in what appears to be the exact same situation, is like explaining the inner working of a computer to a dog (and yes you can explain them to dogs eventually but forget cats as they are morons). 

3. Badges are designed to help identify law enforcement to the public. They mean nothing to law enforcement because they run into fakes on a daily basis.

4. If you want to buy a badge get one for your wife/girlfriend and play cops and robbers in your bedroom. It will allow you to work off some of your aggression towards cops in a positive way and you both will be happy afterwords.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Absolutly*



Padre said:


> I have had the pleasure of working with security in the close vicinity of a number of heads of state, and although I always had the proper credentials, its quite frequent that cool cats walk right through security by looking the part and get way too close. A little decoy like a badge that says nothing goes a long way...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Pardre, I got my laugh of the day out of the motorcade.

That should be used as a training film !


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

Padre said:


> I have had the pleasure of working with security in the close vicinity of a number of heads of state, and although I always had the proper credentials, its quite frequent that cool cats walk right through security by looking the part and get way too close. A little decoy like a badge that says nothing goes a long way...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There's an old saying: A man with a clipboard can go anywhere.

It's all about looking like you belong and having the confidence that goes with knowing that you belong there. That video is pretty embarassing for those guys, though, as it really just illustrates that point.


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## Friknnewguy (Jun 30, 2012)

Turtle said:


> There's an old saying: A man with a clipboard can go anywhere.
> 
> It's all about looking like you belong and having the confidence that goes with knowing that you belong there. That video is pretty embarassing for those guys, though, as it really just illustrates that point.


A pizza delivery guy once told me he's gone into a lot of private places , without being stopped just because he was carrying a hot bag with a pizza in it .


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

Not to contradict Sentry, as i cannot argue anything he said and he is more experienced than I, but to address what I believe was the original question:

Were I to arrive on scene and find a man holding a gun, and a shiny gold badge on his belt, it would probably give me a moment's pause longer than not. Only because, FLETC suggested to us that when are wearing a weapon off-duty, we should wear our badge next to the holster so that should something like that happen, it's more obvious that it was a police involved shooting.

So, yes, it might buy you a moment's time. But it could also be seen as impersonating an officer in the moments to follow.

I agree that it probably isn't worth the tradeoff. I've never seen the neon banner before, but that strikes me as a much better option. It would grab the attention enough that it would show that you are not some gun-toting maniac vigilante, but a prepared and responsible CCW holder.

That's my take on it.


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## Onebigelf (Sep 17, 2011)

I am not LEO, but I HAVE been in a shooting incident. 

I remained armed until law enforcement arrived, then cleared my weapon, locked the slide back, held the magazine in one hand and the firearm in the other by the muzzle with both hands well above my head. I then waited for the officer to tell me what he wanted to do next and followed those instructions carefully and very slowly and deliberately. My goal was to be as non-threatening as possible. The officer appreciated and understood the effort and did not feel the need to shoot me while he figured out what was going on. 

I feel that this is a much better idea than some "badge" that might irritate the officer. One person on the scene has already violated the rule "Don't irritate the man with the gun". Don't you be number two.

John


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## Frost (Nov 8, 2012)

I dont see Padre's post as " your aggression towards cops" at all. he said "display a badge might calm a nervous LEO down about a "man with a gun" long enough for him to verify my CCW, and discover I am not a threat, particularly if I had to hold an assailant at gun point. "

I work side by side with officers, but an NOT a LEO. I am a (use a term i hate but ya'll like) rent a cop. 
I can see your point about the badge and the hope that it would give the arriving LEO's a hint of "ok, not the perp" moment. But I agree with sentry18. 

If I was a cop, and I am not, IF i was..
I got a call about an armed man, and shots fired! 
I am going to wonder, am I going to get shot at?
Am I going to have to shot someone?
I arrive and there is a man holding another person to the ground, at gun point....
yes, Im going to be tense, I see a badge on the standing man. I dont know if it is plastic or not. if your a good guy or not, hell I dont know for sure that your a guy. 
I do KNOW, that you have a gun. it IS pointed at another human, and I do know that I do NOT want anyone but me and my fellow Leo's to be holding a firearm. So yea... I would advise no badge, I dont see how it would help. I can see how it would hinder. and the lawyers (damn sharks) would have a field day with that information.
IMO.


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## trooper0366 (Sep 27, 2012)

In my active duty days, having a badge did not mean much to me or the folks I worked with. If you were not in uniform from a known agency, you would be made to lay your weapon down and move away, etc., until things got sorted out. Do as you are told and don't do anything that can be construed as threatening and you should not have any problems. I realize that in different areas of the nation officers have different procedures, but we are trained to use deadly force only in defense of ourselves or someone else. Once an officer is on scene, lower your weapon so you are not preceived as threatening another. As was pointed out in another post, let the communications people know what the situtation is and what you look like/clothing. I've seen more crooks with different types of badges, including law enforcement badges, than good decent folks having them. Anyone can buy a badge.


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

I just watched that video. Funny stuff but it makes me sad for the world. While growing up my Dad always stressed to me that a professional is marked by the pride in how he does a job. He never relies on the appearance of doing something nor on his gut, what a professional does is work precisely because it's not the easy route but the hard route. 

These cops took too much for granted. But it's not just them. Look at Generals Petraeus and Allan both used their positions to write letters of recommendation for a woman in a divorce. That's a betrayal of the code of professionals. They used the stature of their position inappropriately.

As for the video, have the security organizers never heard of red teams? Send out teams whose job is to break through the security perimeter. 

Those cops look like TSA agents - it's not really about actual security, it's security theater - entertainment designed to look like security. This depresses me so much because I see this more and more in different walks of life. What the hell is happening to pride in a job well done?


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## Frost (Nov 8, 2012)

Its not pride or lack of you are looking at there.
What you are seeing is ( I worked TSA security for a while until I realized just what my role was).

What you are seeing is proof of the "Dog and Pony show" that is to give you the idea of security.


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## CulexPipiens (Nov 17, 2010)

Badges are easy. Got $150 bucks or so?

http://www.lapolicegear.com/smith-and-warren-badges.html

Pick your starting design, add color, add up to 4 lines of text. Decide on gold or silver or black or...

Of course if your badge says "Zombie Hunter" everyone gonna know it's BS. If it says "police" and you aren't a LEO... well, you're gonna be in a whole lot more trouble.


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

CulexPipiens said:


> Badges are easy. Got $150 bucks or so?
> 
> http://www.lapolicegear.com/smith-and-warren-badges.html
> 
> ...


I actually was just involved in an arrest of a guy from out of state who was a former LEO and had had a copy of his badge made to try to get away with carrying his personal weapon after he left. He was working as a private investigator and trying to pass himself off as an officer.


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## PipLogan (Apr 25, 2011)

Turtle said:


> I actually was just involved in an arrest of a guy from out of state who was a former LEO and had had a copy of his badge made to try to get away with carrying his personal weapon after he left. He was working as a private investigator and trying to pass himself off as an officer.


Whoops lol...


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## bahramthered (Mar 10, 2012)

Has anyone else considered the flip side? Carrying a fake badge might make a situation happen? Or get you shot for it.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

Turtle said:


> Not to contradict Sentry, as i cannot argue anything he said and he is more experienced than I, but to address what I believe was the original question:
> 
> Were I to arrive on scene and find a man holding a gun, and a shiny gold badge on his belt, it would probably give me a moment's pause longer than not. Only because, FLETC suggested to us that when are wearing a weapon off-duty, we should wear our badge next to the holster so that should something like that happen, it's more obvious that it was a police involved shooting.
> 
> So, yes, it might buy you a moment's time.


Thank you for an honest answer, and not because he agreed with what I was thinking, I would want to know if you really would react no different. All I am asking is the difference in your personal reaction, or your observations about other cops reactions, to a badge vs. no badge--I agree 100% with Sentry's departmental policy, you should not treat cops or law abiding citizens any differently in a shooting situation, both should be presumed innocent, and both should be treated with respect, and both should be disarmed (because the gun is evidence), both should be detained to answer questions about the shooting (although I don't know that handcuffs are really necessary unless either suggests a threat). My question is what do you actually do, I doubt I will get any preferential treatment after I identify myself as not a LEO (the preference you may show a LEO in real life), and I realize this, but in that most dangerous moment of the encounter with police, I think I may be granted some safety. That's my question. It's an honest one.



SlobberToofTigger said:


> It will allow you to work off some of your aggression towards cops in a positive way and you both will be happy afterwords.


I have no aggression toward cops, I resent cops treating non-cops unequally before the law, but that doesn't always happen, and so I have no general resentment. Equal protection under the law is the American way, and if the REALITY was that all cops would treat an armed civilian in the same way they treat an armed person presenting themselves as a LEO, as Sentry notes is POLICY, then I wouldn't even waste to seconds thinking about this. Sadly I have seen both good Cops who are true gentlemen and keepers of the peace as well as bad cops who are petty tyrants, as well as many in between who have been at least a little corrupted by power.

I suppose, I would also be interested in your opinion if I am too concerned about the danger of this encounter. It just seems to me that cops are so quick to use force these days, it quite frankly scares me if I ever have to exercise my God given right to defend myself. Here is praying that I never have to, because although I believe I am willing if necessary, my hope is that I never am faced with that choice.


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## MsSage (Mar 3, 2012)

OK I am going to through a monkey wrench in the mix......what are the thoughts of street officers when they come upon a prison transport in trouble? We carry weapons and yes inmates will try to escape including killing the CO to get away. We have badges and guns BUT no authority outside the walls of our prison except in stopping an escape or assault of an inmate in our custody for transport.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

In my state a Corrections Officer, Parole Agent, Court Service Officer, Probation Officer, Jailer, etc., etc. are ALL law enforcement officers with equal protection and status under the law. If I (or any other LEO) responded to a prisoner transport in trouble I would respond like a fellow officer in need of assistance. Our CO's wear full uniforms and duty gear and are easily recognizable. They are also certified and have been through a full firearms training program. Most transports are done in either in a marked squad car with reds & blues on top or in a van/bus with a marked squad car escort. My first job in law enforcement was driving one of those cars with a Glock 19 on my hip and star shaped badge on my chest. Like you the expectation was to focus strictly on public safety by preventing escape, even if that meant shooting an unarmed attempting-to-escape inmate or anyone who was trying to assist in that escape. And those types of events did happen, just not to me. When they did it just became a cooperative law enforcement effort or a crime scene.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*We always*



MsSage said:


> OK I am going to through a monkey wrench in the mix......what are the thoughts of street officers when they come upon a prison transport in trouble? We carry weapons and yes inmates will try to escape including killing the CO to get away. We have badges and guns BUT no authority outside the walls of our prison except in stopping an escape or assault of an inmate in our custody for transport.


We always did everything possable to help you get your prisoner back under control and custody.

If he went home to Momma and is hideing in the house , we would have you wait outside while we went through the house and if he was in there , we would turn him back over to you after we rearrested him and charged him with any additional violations.

You are a sworn officer from a diffrent jurisdiction and would be treated the same as any officer from another jurisdiction who lost a prisoner .


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## kappydell (Nov 27, 2011)

as a leo i ran into lots of badges, and although i thought they were ego-enhancers, i did not do anything other than verify the bearer was what they claimed to be, very cautiously; but they angered some colleagues something fierce, so much that they started looking for anything they could find to bust the bearer on. in my area it is a felony to pretend to be leo, and you never know when someone might decide THAT is your intent, no matter what you may say about it (because leo folk learn early to discount much of what is being said, relying on their own eyes and common sense instead). i don't recommend a badge for that reason. i don't even carry a 'retired' leo badge, for those that think i might be a hypocrite...Sentry has it right and NO MATTER WHAT do not lose your temper if they seem overly cautious. Do what they tell you to, even if it seems (to you) to be unneccessary, outrageous, or insulting. For pete's sake don't get shot because your ego thinks they should be able to tell you are 'the good guy' just by looking at you! Bad guys lie, and some go out of their way to look more like cops than cops, so everyone is suspect until things get sorted out. Its not you...its just the way it is because the cop wants to go home in one piece. And so should you.


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## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

When in a tense situation, every LEO I have talked to, and I am related to 2 of them, tell me what sentry 18 said--"innocent until proven guilty is out the window until the scene is secured", (not trying to put words in your mouth here, but that is how it translates to me), and probably later, too, if the track record means anything. Too many bad shoots by LEO's, most often people who should never have been LEO's to start with. The internet has made this a lot more obvious and well advertised.

Those bad situations unfortunately have the general public scared to death of LEO's now. Lots of really fine people putting it all on the line every day to keep the peace, but they get tarred with the same brush as the bad ones, and it doesn't take many bad ones to do that. 

For us John Does, it means we have to be VERY wary, and keep our heads down. I can't think of anything worse than being around when a violent crime goes down. I want to be CLEAR THE HECK OUT OF THE WAY! Mistakes can, and often are, fatal to even bystanders, as happened lately in NYC when LEO's took down a criminal, but also shot several bystanders.

How many of those NYC LEO's will do time for manslaughter for hitting a bystander? 
What would be the chances of a citizen doing time for manslaughter, or murder, if he hit a bystander attempting to stop a felony? 

I know I wouldn't want to take the chance.


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## Moby76065 (Jul 31, 2012)

CHL holders ARE NOT COPS!
DON'T TRY TO BE A COP UNLESS YOU'RE A COP!
Don't get a badge, a light in your car, or act with authority if you do not have it.

MIND YOUR OWN F'n BUSINESS AND KEEP YOUR FIREARM SECURED AND COVERED!
If you see someone in danger THINK!! Then act appropriately.

CHL does not = COP


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## ComputerGuy (Dec 10, 2010)

Moby76065 said:


> CHL holders ARE NOT COPS!
> DON'T TRY TO BE A COP UNLESS YOU'RE A COP!
> Don't get a badge, a light in your car, or act with authority if you do not have it.
> 
> ...


JFC. How about toning it down a bit?


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## SlobberToofTigger (Dec 27, 2011)

Padre said:


> Here is praying that I never have to, because although I believe I am willing if necessary, my hope is that I never am faced with that choice.


I agree with you on that one 200%! I have a CWP (Though I admit I rarely carry anymore) and I hope that I never get in a situation where I need to use a gun.

Many years ago I was a security officer in the one state in the union that grants security the same arrest powers as a sheriff (notice I did not say a deputy). Interestingly this was done because the sheriffs were arresting senators on their way to vote so the senators needed protection from the sheriffs... Grin. The agency I worked for was a no holds barred agency and we worked stuff the local LEOs wanted nothing to do with, and so as you can imagine I have both been shot at and returned fire. I only had to arrest two LEOs (one off duty and one on duty) and the off duty guy was from NJ. He screamed the whole way to jail, after being disarmed, claiming I had no right to arrest him and even tried to work over the judge. The on duty guy was involved in a drug deal and I guess had not gotten the memo we had taken over the complex. His coworkers were very embarrassed and apologized profusely when the came to transport... What this taught me was that a badge has no meaning and I needed to treat everyone the same. It also convinced me to get out of that line of work and do something where I do not get shot at as much!


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Blood born pathigens*

Everyone understands the precautions taken by people who work around injured people who may be HIV positive.

Officers have the same approach toward suspects when they stop a vehicle or respond to a crime scene.

We assume everyone is a threat until we have secured the scene or compleated the vehicle stop .

So if you are involved in a shooting or a citizens arrest, follow the officer's instructions and do nothing that could be construed as threatening.

Remember he is frightened too !


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

Turtle said:


> I actually was just involved in an arrest of a guy from out of state who was a former LEO and had had a copy of his badge made to try to get away with carrying his personal weapon after he left. He was working as a private investigator and trying to pass himself off as an officer.


The Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act (LEOSA) is a United States federal law, enacted in 2004, that allows two classes of persons-the "qualified law enforcement officer" and the "qualified retired law enforcement officer"-to carry a concealed firearm in any jurisdiction in the United States, regardless of state or local laws, with certain exceptions.







In accordance with 18 USC 926C,[5] a "qualified retired law enforcement officer" is an individual who:
separated from service in good standing from service with a public agency as a law enforcement officer;
before such separation, was authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law, and had statutory powers of arrest or apprehension under section 807(b) of title 10, United States Code (article 7(b) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice);

before such separation, served as a law enforcement officer for an aggregate of 10 years or more; or separated from service with such agency, after completing any applicable probationary period of such service, due to a service-connected disability, as determined by such agency;

during the most recent 12-month period, has met, at the expense of the individual, the standards for qualification in firearms training for active law enforcement officers, as determined by the former agency of the individual, the State in which the individual resides or, if the State has not established such standards, either a law enforcement agency within the State in which the individual resides or the standards used by a certified firearms instructor that is qualified to conduct a firearms qualification test for active duty officers within that State;

has not been officially found by a qualified medical professional employed by the agency to be unqualified for reasons relating to mental health and as a result of this finding will not be issued photographic identification; or has not entered into an agreement with the agency from which the individual is separating from service in which that individual acknowledges he or she is not qualified under this section for reasons relating to mental health and for those reasons will not receive or accept photographic identification;

is not under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance; and
is not prohibited by Federal law from receiving a firearm.


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

Thanks Padre, I passed this information along to my father. He will need to find some private training that would meet or exceed the standards of the dept he worked for and provide documentation, but I'm sure that's something he'd be willing to seek out.


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## SlobberToofTigger (Dec 27, 2011)

Padre said:


> The Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act (LEOSA) is a United States federal law, enacted in 2004,


That law would not come into effect in this case because the ex LEO was working as a PI. As such his ability to carry a firearm would be covered under the state law that deals with licensing PIs. When he was not working as a PI he could carry under the federal law but as soon as he put his PI hat on the federal law no longer applies. It also sounds like Turtle said he was trying to pass himself off as a current LEO which is against both state and feral laws.


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## drfacefixer (Mar 8, 2013)

Just my cent,

If I was on a jury where something happened and a nonleo person was displaying a shield for whatever reason, my first thought is that they've abused a society standard. LEOs are given a certain amount of power for a reason. they undergo training And have to adhere to strict codes and regulations as a burden for bearing that status. I understand the reasoning for the question and I love to hear the policies on the Leo side. It just pushes the boundaries of " I planned just in case this happened "which really seems like" I was out looking for an opportunity to act like a LEO."


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

*Thank you to those who answered my question*



drfacefixer said:


> If I was on a jury where something happened and a nonleo person was displaying a shield for whatever reason, my first thought is that they've abused a society standard. LEOs are given a certain amount of power for a reason. they undergo training And have to adhere to strict codes and regulations as a burden for bearing that status. I understand the reasoning for the question and I love to hear the policies on the Leo side. It just pushes the boundaries of " I planned just in case this happened "which really seems like" I was out looking for an opportunity to act like a LEO."


Unless you present yourself as a cop, your CCW badge accurately describes the authorization you have from the state to carry, I bet a halfway decent lawyer gets it excluded from evidence as prejudicial.

This post was never about my desire to carry a badge, although I admit that there is a little of boyhood romanticism about the idea...., which since I was about 10 I have never seriously thought about trying out. It was DEFINITELY never about showing it off on a regular or semi-regular basis. It was about the idea, that I read in a prepper-porn book (written by a Lawyer BTW, for all those concerned about the legality) that having a badge on a chain on display IF AND ONLY IF you were involved with a self-defense shooting, citizens arrest of someone who violently attacked you and who you were holding your assailant at gunpoint, ar (SIC, freudian slip though I thought I would leave it in, should read OR)an active fire fight, might give police pause, identify you as a POTENTIAL good guy, and make you a bit safer in the process that Sentry described, of being disarmed, taken into custody, and questioned.

Lots of people wear badges who are not cops:
EMTs, Fire departments, PIs, Security officers, Bail Enforcement agents, prison guards, postal inspectors

I don't want to wear one (to show it off), in fact, I never had any inclination to ever buy one, (my REAL credentials will get me to so many places a badge simply will not) it is just a question I had. After having heard your comments and read a number of other pages I have determined that COPS are really sensitive about this subject (and there is the do not piss off the man with the gun principle). That being said, their vocal anger (RAGE, at times) about even the suggestion that a CIVILIAN could be carrying a badge, does make me wonder if it is not moral outrage at a violation of the law (which it is not) or overwhelming concern about the safety of us civilians, but disdain that a non-LEO would muddle the waters and claim the protection of the thin blue line. Up here they actually have a thin blue line bumper sticker that they only sell to LEOs (with department ID) and the staties actually have a decal that only staties can get, which I am told has some effect on your likelihood to get a speeding ticket. Anyway I thank all of you who calmly and reasonably answered my question.
:beercheer:​
To the LEOs on the page I really enjoyed this article about things cops can do to tell CCWs from perps: http://www.policeone.com/police-pro...citizens-legally-carrying-a-concealed-weapon/



SlobberToofTigger said:


> That law would not come into effect in this case because the ex LEO was working as a PI. As such his ability to carry a firearm would be covered under the state law that deals with licensing PIs. When he was not working as a PI he could carry under the federal law but as soon as he put his PI hat on the federal law no longer applies. It also sounds like Turtle said he was trying to pass himself off as a current LEO which is against both state and feral laws.


I am not going to read the whole law, and I definitely don't want to get into a tit for tat, but unless there is an exception written into the federal law it would be the general principle that the federal preempts the state, although as a Constitutionalist I would agree that the State should have the right under the 10th amendment to limit ex-cops, particularly their own ex-cops, from carrying. I don't know the particulars of the situation Turtle was in, and I am not telling him how to do his job, but I just wanted to point out that there actually is a law that allows ex-cops to carry EVERYWHERE, it is I believe the same one that allows cops to carry on a commercial flight.


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## Cabowabo (Nov 6, 2012)

Going back to that book in the 299 day series. What he did was actually illegal. He said that he was a cop, while that wasn't his intent when he got the badge. Thats what he said to get past the neighborhood watch, and in a store to avoid possible punishment. Yeah it was illegal for him to do that. 

Second when LE comes onto the scene I'm going to do what they say. Chain of custody is pretty easy to understand. My unregistered firearm will now be registered in a shooting because it will be evidence. Keep in mind all that extra stuff that people with CHL's do. Extra classes, carrying a badge if they aren't a cop. Can and probably will be used against them in a court of law. The last thing you want is to make it look like you are looking for a reason to kill someone. Getting a CHL badge like that will defiantly be used against you in a court of law. Personally I wouldn't do it. If in the civilian world I had to pull my firearm and use it in a defensive setting. I'm going to make sure its 1) justified, and 2) not to get jumpy when LEO arrives on scene. 

Question for LEO, not meant to hijack. But I'm considering applying for a LEO position when I seperate. Do ya'll have to get tased? I did that today I have video evidence, and I'd rather not do it again.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

> Question for LEO, not meant to hijack. But I'm considering applying for a LEO position when I seperate. Do ya'll have to get tased? I did that today I have video evidence, and I'd rather not do it again.


Some departments _may_ accept your video and not zap you, but in my department every officer has to go through the whole course, pass the written test and get tased before they go out on the road. That includes lateral transfers who have already been through the training and rode the lightning. We video tape the process and use it for liability purposes. Our instructors have to be tased every 3 years and our lead instructor gets tased every year to prove you cannot build up a tolerance. He has been tased like 13 times now.


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## Cabowabo (Nov 6, 2012)

Sentry18 said:


> Some departments _may_ accept your video and not zap you, but in my department every officer has to go through the whole course, pass the written test and get tased before they go out on the road. That includes lateral transfers who have already been through the training and rode the lightning. We video tape the process and use it for liability purposes. Our instructors have to be tased every 3 years and our lead instructor gets tased every year to prove you cannot build up a tolerance. He has been tased like 13 times now.


I'd do it again if I had to for a job. But that's a long 5 seconds. I feel sorry for your lead instructor.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

Cabowabo said:


> Going back to that book in the 299 day series. What he did was actually illegal. He said that he was a cop, while that wasn't his intent when he got the badge.


I would have to go back and reread it but I am pretty sure the author says he made sure not to say that he was a cop, but that many people assumed he was despite what the badge actually said and the fact that he never said he was.


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

SlobberToofTigger said:


> That law would not come into effect in this case because the ex LEO was working as a PI. As such his ability to carry a firearm would be covered under the state law that deals with licensing PIs. When he was not working as a PI he could carry under the federal law but as soon as he put his PI hat on the federal law no longer applies. It also sounds like Turtle said he was trying to pass himself off as a current LEO which is against both state and feral laws.


Correct. The guy had been on the job (if I recall correctly) less than two years. Also, the separation creds are not guaranteed; one's agency or department must approve the issue of said credentials.


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## tc556guy (Apr 28, 2011)

Don't waste time with some poser badge.

As far as not winding up KIA, don't point the gun at responding officers, and follow their instructions once they're on scene.


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## pawpaw (Dec 21, 2011)

drfacefixer said:


> Just my cent,
> 
> If I was on a jury where something happened and a nonleo person was displaying a shield for whatever reason, my first thought is that they've abused a society standard. LEOs are given a certain amount of power for a reason. they undergo training And have to adhere to strict codes and regulations as a burden for bearing that status. I understand the reasoning for the question and I love to hear the policies on the Leo side. It just pushes the boundaries of " I planned just in case this happened "which really seems like" I was out looking for an opportunity to act like a LEO."


I haven't been a LEO since the 90's. I carry daily, but always drill myself mentally on scenarios in which I would-or would NOT use my weapon in the gravest extreme. It's just too easy for attorneys to convince a jury that, with your prior experience & training, you should be held to a somewhat higher standard than the usual "reasonable man" standard. The implication, of course, being that you miss being a 'cowboy', and spend your days awaiting your chance of being a hero.
Needless to say, I would never get out of my vehicle to follow a skittle-laden youth wearing a hoodie anywhere......


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Judgment*



pawpaw said:


> I haven't been a LEO since the 90's. I carry daily, but always drill myself mentally on scenarios in which I would-or would NOT use my weapon in the gravest extreme. It's just too easy for attorneys to convince a jury that, with your prior experience & training, you should be held to a somewhat higher standard than the usual "reasonable man" standard. The implication, of course, being that you miss being a 'cowboy', and spend your days awaiting your chance of being a hero.
> Needless to say, I would never get out of my vehicle to follow a skittle-laden youth wearing a hoodie anywhere......


You are correct on both accounts.

The "reasonable man standard" is based on the question , "would a reasonable man, knowing what this man knew at the moment he fired his weapon, be in fear of his life?" If you have prior training, that is something you knew.

If you are not a cop, don't act like a cop. Call it in and show off with a detailed discription and account of the crime. It always impressed me when the witness could give me an actual license tag number.


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