# First place to raid



## zombiesarehere (Apr 25, 2014)

What would be the first place you would raid / acquire gear if a zombie apocalypse or government downfall happened?

I would start with a car dealership then army surplus store. 


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

I wouldn't. I'm not a thief, not now or ever.

If I had the opportunity to make a last shopping trip, it would be to the grocery. There are some things you just can't have enough of - cooking oil, baby formula, bottled water, sugar, canned meat, & spices that I can't grow. And some other things you won't be able to get, like fresh bananas and kiwis, I'd like to have one last feast on.


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## PrepN4Good (Dec 23, 2011)

Assuming this is a _theoretical_ discussion - I can't see myself breaking in or stealing from others, but I guess we all never know - I think I would head to the pharmacy. Insulin, painkillers, & antibiotics.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

Zombie apocalypse im after ammo, armoured transport, and claymore's. Gov downfall im after food, water, ammo. Although, I wouldnt do anything that could be classified as raiding. Scavenging im ok with.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

zombiesarehere said:


> I would start with a car dealership then army surplus store.


Why car dealership? If you don't have the right key (in a lock box, BTW) you ain't getting one..

The local military surplus store has employees all armed... as are MOST of the customers. I would not mess with them unless you want a fast death.

You know.... like this guy:
*Man shot while trying to rob Waukegan gun store*
http://www.examiner.com/article/man-shot-while-trying-to-rob-waukegan-gun-store


> It boggles the mind to think that someone would try and rob a gun store. Of all the places that once could rob, a gun store would seem to be the worst choice, as the employees are guaranteed to be armed and rather familiar with guns...


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## AdmiralD7S (Dec 6, 2012)

zombiesarehere said:


> What would be the first place you would raid / acquire gear if a zombie apocalypse or government downfall happened?
> 
> I would start with a car dealership then army surplus store.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Survival Forum


Ah, another ignorant first-time, borderline-Rambo poster... Hopefully you stay around long enough for us to straighten you out. A good place to start would be to introduce yourself in the appropriate thread.

In the meantime, prepping is about being ready before something happens, at least to the degree that your individual situation allows. It's usually not out of reach of most folks to have a reliable vehicle (and you do have a plan on where you're going, right?). Also, I'm not sure there's more than a handful of people here who don't have at least some level of guns, ammo, food, water, tools, etc. While we all would like more, it would be the exception for folks here to rob places , especially on day 1.

I recommend you get to know us by reading threads in the forums you care about. I don't ride into Texas on a horse shouting "GIDGIYYYYUP!" while dragging along a branding iron and shooting my six-guns into the air. Why, you ask? Because that's not how the average Texan is...just how some outsiders perceive them. Similarly, preppers are not about the smash-and-grab on the day of the apocalypse where we steal new vehicles and take over the local armory for our headquarters. Those folks are crazy and will get themselves killed rather quickly.

It's like immigrating to America. Don't show up and expect us to change to be what you think we should be. Leave your past and preconceptions at the door and become a one of us locals. You'll learn much more, and you won't irritate everyone else along the way.

Sent from my iPhone usi


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## Country Living (Dec 15, 2009)

Ditto what the Admiral said.... 

The new person is obviously very young (deduced from the name s/he chose and the youthful comments used in the post - mid-teens at the most) so there is hope s/he will come on board to read, learn, and eventually participate in meaningful dialog.

Car dealership? I think this is the first time anyone has said they would first go to a car dealership!


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## ras1219como (Jan 15, 2013)

We'll said Admiral!!

That being laid out there...I don't plan on "raiding" anything. Raiding is another term for stealing. I prepare so I can support myself without having to resort to stealing during TEOTWAWKI. 

Besides for about the first week or so you'd be fighting hoards of panicked people for anything you wanted anyway and that's a recipe for disaster. 

Stay on board and read the threads here. You're guaranteed to learn something!


Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum. Please forgive typos.


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## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

zombiesarehere said:


> What would be the first place you would raid / acquire gear if a zombie apocalypse or government downfall happened?


Your house while you're out car shopping.


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## Country Living (Dec 15, 2009)

ZoomZoom said:


> Your house while you're out car shopping.


The perfect answer! :congrat:


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

I'll probably be too busy double checking my security measures to worry much about raiding.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

If you come around my way I can let you know where the last place you'll attempt to raid is.


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## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

Why would this be your first post?? Are you from the government taking names and numbers? :gaah:


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## jeff47041 (Jan 5, 2013)

Well said Admiral.

This post makes me think of another question. What will everyone do with the bodies of intended raiders at your place? I'm not directing this just at Admiral, I'd like to hear thoughts from everyone.

Digging a hole is hard work and takes a lot of time. Even if the ground is soft, it still takes a long time to dig a hole big enough for a body. And you could end up needing a lot of holes.

You can't have dead bodies laying around stinking, and spreading disease, so what would you do when there isn't just someone to call to come get them. Really, I have wondered this. Dragging them about a quarter of a mile away may work, but then, you have to leave your place unguarded while away. You can't wait a few days, it has to be done right away. And do you think you would give a little service, or just ditch the body? 

I know this will be hard at first, (I have never killed anyone) and will be a shock to you. As time goes on, it will be more common to have to do, and you would get more used to it. But what d you think you will do?


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## valannb22 (Jan 6, 2012)

People might stick around long enough to learn some things if we were nicer to them when they show up. Just sayin' We should be able to disagree without being downright rude.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

AdmiralD7S said:


> Ah, another ignorant first-time, borderline-Rambo poster... Hopefully you stay around long enough for us to straighten you out. A good place to start would be to introduce yourself in the appropriate thread.
> 
> In the meantime, prepping is about being ready before something happens, at least to the degree that your individual situation allows. It's usually not out of reach of most folks to have a reliable vehicle (and you do have a plan on where you're going, right?). Also, I'm not sure there's more than a handful of people here who don't have at least some level of guns, ammo, food, water, tools, etc. While we all would like more, it would be the exception for folks here to rob places , especially on day 1.
> 
> ...


Can we just send Magus after this troll?!

Or let me beat him with my troll hammer?!?


Seriously, I don't steal. That being said my first trip would be to the lumber yard in town to *BUY* as much as I can to fortify my home and property. Then the gun shop and pawn shops to *BUY* guns and ammo.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

jeff47041 said:


> This post makes me think of another question. What will everyone do with the bodies of intended raiders at your place? I'm not directing this just at Admiral, I'd like to hear thoughts from everyone


Funeral pyre as far off the property but still within sight.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

jeff47041 said:


> What will everyone do with the bodies of intended raiders at your place?..., I'd like to hear thoughts from everyone.


That's good protein... part will be cooked, dried, and blended into chicken food, some into dog food.... hog food? etc.

The bones can be ground up for calcium and bone meal. 
Not for human consumption, of course!


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## Country Living (Dec 15, 2009)

jeff47041 said:


> This post makes me think of another question. What will everyone do with the bodies of intended raiders at your place?


Another advantage of living in the boonies - we have lots of turkey vultures. The last time I shot a feral hog the turkey vultures had it picked clean within 24 hours. Then the crows came around to see if anything was left.

We think of it as a personal commitment to recycling.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

I'm more afraid of this...


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## backlash (Nov 11, 2008)

Leave them where they die.
Buzzards got to eat same as worms. 
Josey Wales.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Zombie apocalypse and government downfall are two very different scenarios. I figure a zombie apocalypse is not a problem as there are no such thing as zombies.

A government downfall on the other hand might prove to be beneficial. Imagine the taxes you'll save! The economy will boom! With all that extra money you may have a hard time figuring out what to spend it on.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

jeff47041 said:


> Well said Admiral.
> 
> This post makes me think of another question. What will everyone do with the bodies of intended raiders at your place? I'm not directing this just at Admiral, I'd like to hear thoughts from everyone.
> 
> ...


Okay, I guess the first place I'll raid will be an implement dealership ... I think a backhoe would come in real handy!


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

Geek999 said:


> A government downfall on the other hand might prove to be beneficial. Imagine the taxes you'll save! The economy will boom! With all that extra money you may have a hard time figuring out what to spend it on.


A prepper that can't find a place to spend money?


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

jeff47041 said:


> Well said Admiral.
> 
> This post makes me think of another question. What will everyone do with the bodies of intended raiders at your place? I'm not directing this just at Admiral, I'd like to hear thoughts from everyone.
> 
> ...


Friends and family get buried, criminals get dumped in a remote spot for the scavengers. I don't have the energy and digging a hole like that will be a labor of love.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

jeff47041 said:


> Well said Admiral.
> 
> This post makes me think of another question. What will everyone do with the bodies of intended raiders at your place? I'm not directing this just at Admiral, I'd like to hear thoughts from everyone.
> 
> ...


I think the best thing to do is to drag them into an unoccupied house that has all of its windows intact.

If you can't do that, drag them a block east of your house. Any wind at all will blow the smell away from your house since the wind seldom comes straight east. If there's no wind then you'll smell it.

There's also the possibility some people will just consider the body to be a fresh kill and they'll take it off your hands.


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## cqp33 (Apr 2, 2012)

I say take them a mile up the road and and hang them in a tree with a sign that reads, "This was a thief, come in peace or accept your fate!"


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## cqp33 (Apr 2, 2012)

Country Living said:


> Ditto what the Admiral said....
> 
> The new person is obviously very young (deduced from the name s/he chose and the youthful comments used in the post - mid-teens at the most) so there is hope s/he will come on board to read, learn, and eventually participate in meaningful dialog.
> 
> Car dealership? I think this is the first time anyone has said they would first go to a car dealership!


Car dealership because having new wheels during TEOTWAWKI is important!:brickwall: I hope this youngster learns something here, but we shouldn't be surprised that this is how 80% of the population would answer!


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## zombiesarehere (Apr 25, 2014)

This is a hypothetical of course. Because transportation is important when things go wrong and your car might be damaged. Plus just getting a new car you might go through ammo just getting one. I think trying to raid peoples homes is wrong and will get you killed. Id just get out of dodge.

Find a place relatively remote, just close enough to see whats going on. Hunting is important and when things go wrong everyone who lives in the country are 50% there in the survival senerios.



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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

zombiesarehere said:


> This is a hypothetical of course. Because transportation is important when things go wrong and your car might be damaged. Plus just getting a new car you might go through ammo just getting one. I think trying to raid peoples homes is wrong and will get you killed. Id just get out of dodge.
> 
> Find a place relatively remote, just close enough to see whats going on. Hunting is important and when things go wrong everyone who lives in the country are 50% there in the survival senerios.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Survival Forum


How old are you?


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## cnsper (Sep 20, 2012)

:facepalm:

The pantry.... Gotta make dinner.:yummy::yummy::yummy:


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

zombiesarehere said:


> This is a hypothetical of course. Because transportation is important when things go wrong and your car might be damaged. Plus just getting a new car you might go through ammo just getting one. I think trying to raid peoples homes is wrong and will get you killed. Id just get out of dodge.
> 
> Find a place relatively remote, just close enough to see whats going on. Hunting is important and when things go wrong everyone who lives in the country are 50% there in the survival senerios.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Survival Forum





Caribou said:


> How old are you?


Twelve, or a VERY mature nine year old!


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Dakine said:


> Twelve, or a VERY mature nine year old!


Is it raining down there yet?


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

Just started raining HARD!

and as it happens, I have a new cat. who was so skin and bones she was unable to even present a defense when the mutt was all up in her business. She made an admirable attempt to clear the yard, but bounced off the vines, couldnt even claw her way out.

And she immediately followed me everywhere when I put the flashlight everywhere I was walking. Absolutely trusting of humans, and completely ignored the dog because she couldnt do anything about her anyway. 

I can only figure... an indoor cat that never had to hunt and therefore isn't any good at it? and then somehow she got lost and now she's a wreck. But a very pretty wreck! she's got a bit of brindle in her fur, and she's super friendly. Not super happy about being outside in the rain right now, but she's better in the cat carrier protected from yotes and other predators after getting a meal and a half, and tomorrow I'll sort out something better for her. 


I fed her and gave her the wet cat food leftovers that my cat always has. I suspect she was in the yard because she smelled the rabbits. She was probably hoping for a meal, but in her state, first off, she couldn't break into the bunny bunker if she had a week, and lets say for S&G she did... the rabbits are individually packaged in cages she definitely can not get into, and they will just hop to the other corner when she pokes all 3 or 4 inches of paw into the cage.

And by then the mutt will be going absolutely apeshit so I'm gonna be woken up to find out what's going on...

She's locked up in a cat carrier right now, had more food in the last 2 hours than she's probably had in the last 2 weeks and a water bowl! 

I do NOT know how this will end, but I foresee a bunch of money leaving my wallet


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Dakine said:


> Just started raining HARD!
> 
> and as it happens, I have a new cat. who was so skin and bones she was unable to even present a defense when the mutt was all up in her business. She made an admirable attempt to clear the yard, but bounced off the vines, couldnt even claw her way out.
> 
> ...


So, Ninja is solid black like my Bai and Dori and now this new cat is a torti like Alice... Are you starting to collect cats?!


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)




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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Dakine said:


>


Okay. More like a roan tabby cat.


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

Grimm said:


> So, Ninja is solid black like my Bai and Dori and now this new cat is a torti like Alice... Are you starting to collect cats?!


She's not really a fan of other cats... including her own kittens after they were weaned when they were here. I'm certain this will not go well unless new cat stays away from her unless it's Ninja that want's to cuddle, which was always the problem when it was the other cats who were her own kids lol. She's kind of a PITA. And now without other cats to boss around she takes it out on the dog lol...

Big day tomorrow, and Sunday... was a huge day today... and adopting a starving cat was not part of the plans.

One day at a time!


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Dakine said:


> She's not really a fan of other cats... including her own kittens after they were weaned when they were here. I'm certain this will not go well unless new cat stays away from her unless it's Ninja that want's to cuddle, which was always the problem when it was the other cats who were her own kids lol. She's kind of a PITA. And now without other cats to boss around she takes it out on the dog lol...
> 
> Big day tomorrow, and Sunday... was a huge day today... and adopting a starving cat was not part of the plans.
> 
> One day at a time!


Bai is the same way. She hates other cats- especially Sebastian, my flamepoint. He can't even look at her cross eyed without her throwing a loud and uncalled for fit... He IS cross eyed!
:brickwall:


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

Grimm said:


> Okay. More like a roan tabby cat.


if you say so! I was never into cats until I was working from home highly contagious with whooping cough. I only had a Ninja motorcycle at the time and thus the name, and I was pretty sure she would not be happy about riding in a backpack to the vet to get fixed, as it turns out she turned herself into an indoor kitty after getting knocked up lol.

Anyway, new kitty is now inside, sequestered from the other animals, I wish I could give her more room to roam but I'm still hesitant to let her out of the cat carrier, I just dont have the time to spend hours sorting out a potential cat squabble as one is hiding and the other is protecting turf.

I need one of those catio cages so I could make a barrier from the hallway to the bathroom so I can enter one area without exposing the entire house to a little critter looking to escape!


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## Jason (Jul 25, 2009)

Keep in mind if the "event" is an EMP there's a good chance all those shiny new cars will be absolutely worthless, and flocking to a car dealership will most likely result in your running into a bunch of confused, angry people who can't figure out why the cars won't run (if the keys even become obtainable). People will end up dying over what amounts to shiny junk.


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## Country Living (Dec 15, 2009)

I must admit I am a bit impressed with ZombieWhat'sHisName. While I may not agree with his/her premises in the two posts, I think they are that of a young almost-thinker. At least s/he can write well, use correct subject/verb correlation, knows how to use punctuation, writes a cohesive sentence, and can succinctly communicate his/her ideas. 

It's not often we get young people who know there is more to text-typing and can think instead of regurgitate what is taught in school. I think young Zombie has some potential. 

Now, Zombie person..... hop over to the introductions section and introduce yourself. Go on.... scoot over there......


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## lovetogrow (Jan 25, 2011)

:ditto:

It would be good to give you a proper :welcome: Zombie person  and you will find a whole lot of good folk here who are willing to answer your questions if you are really interested in learning a few things kiddo (at least I think your a kiddo...I'm just an older lady and I too am learning a whole lot of useful things from the good folk here)


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## partdeux (Aug 3, 2011)

Car dealership, where are you planning to get gas?


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## GrinnanBarrett (Aug 31, 2012)

The term raid does tend to bother most of us. For those who don't prepare but assume all is well it comes down to places not wiped out in the initial 24 hours after an event. 

Car dealerships will be overrun by criminals looting and going after that new ride. 

If you have cash you may be able to buy some items but remember in most power down situations credit and debit cards do not work. 

If you plan on stealing stuff just join the looters in line. Just be aware they will kill each other for the last loaf of bread. GB. 


Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


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## Country Living (Dec 15, 2009)

GrinnanBarrett said:


> The term raid does tend to bother most of us.


I equate the word "raid" with "Tyler the Doomsday Idiot". I'm assuming he's still waiting for his trial date.


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## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

zombiesarehere said:


> What would be the first place you would raid / acquire gear if a zombie apocalypse or government downfall happened?
> 
> I would start with a car dealership then army surplus store.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Survival Forum


No, this is a good question. First place I am going to raid/acquire gear is MY HOME! I'm making a beeline for it, locking the doors and going through MY stuff. It is not setup like a store, where you walk down the isles and things are lined up nice and neat like. Stuff is in boxes and scattered around a bit.

For the typical zombie apocalypse/Govt. collapse, I would first prepare defenses. Make sure all firearms were handy with all clips/magazines filled and extra ammo by their sides.

For a natural disaster, I would take the standby heat/light and dig out the backups. Spread them out and make sure that all were handy in every room.

In either case, next step is to secure water. If there is still electric, fill all I can from the well. If you do not have extra barrels in the shed, fill the bathtub and any coolers or jugs you have. If no electric, turn the shutoff to the well and drain the lines.

Depending on the time of year, check the garden next! What [email protected]@ks good for folks that did not prepare and would RAID to STEAL YOUR STUFF. Take what I can use inside, more if I can do an emergency canning batch or two. If not ,leave it and plan to lose it or defend it as you can.

Gasoline would be the last thing on my list, as would a brand new vehicle. In any disaster, think Katrina or the LA riots, the first place the 'zombies' go is to electronic stores. Grab that BIG TV or the latest games!!! I would avoid any places like that like the plague!!! If I did have the chance at going to a store it would be a grocery store, as pointed out, to get any veggies and fruits I cannot grow. Salt, sugar, beans and the like I have plenty of. What I do not have is.. a pineapple, out of season strawberries and stuff like that. Maybe a supply of nuts too, all I could get. For this you might need CASH, as all electronics might be out. I keep $60 (2 - 20's, a ten, a five and five ones) in the car. This along with any cash I have in my wallet would get me something if needed.

For me, there is no 'raiding' or 'looting' at this point. For one, there is a big chance of getting killed, another is running into others that would kill you for what you just took.

There are lots of things folks THINK they need to survive, that they really don't. If there is something I have forgotten or do not have I simply do without. Example: before a storm folks flock and raid the milk, bread, eggs here. Heck, I can survive without them! What you cannot survive without is water and SOMETHING/ANYTHING to eat and protect yourself from others and the elements. A new vehicle is not even on the list.


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## Hooch (Jul 22, 2011)

I like the idea to hang a few bodies with signs by any roads comming into town. Gives a fair warning of what raiders or other trouble makers can expect. Burning bodies to eliminate spreading of disease idea sound. Unfortunetly we've seen that have to happen after mass disasters like the tsumanies even in modern times. 

I spose around my local area, folks would eventually use dead raiders as fish/crab bait. hack'em up and throw them in the bait boxes. Be a bit gruesome but...

I spose one could fire up the road crews brush and tree limp shredder to make fast work of raider bodies. It'd chop up the bones real nice and grind up the rest for the idea Lin-tex had...or spread for fertilizer?? or chum??

...might want to start with some of the jail/prison populations... just sayin..


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

Why give fair warning tho? Nah hanging bodies is a serious downer. I dont want to ever get to the point of celebrating brutality. If someone wants to be a problem, shoot them and burn the bodies.


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## rugster (Mar 2, 2014)

I'd hit the store for food and medicines and i'd pay cash I'm not a thief


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

cqp33 said:


> I say take them a mile up the road and and hang them in a tree with a sign that reads, "This was a thief, come in peace or accept your fate!"


Hang them from a tree stripped with a sign around their necks, "Courtesy of the U.S. Army."

Think that would make any future Raiders stop and reassess their plans?


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

I always thought a sign that says: "I am watching you right now through the crosshairs" would be pretty effective.


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## HardCider (Dec 13, 2013)

LincTex said:


> I always thought a sign that says: "I am watching you right now through the crosshairs" would be pretty effective.


I like the one down the road from me, "Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again"


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

HardCider said:


> I like the one down the road from me, "Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again"


NO EXTRA FOOD or WATER, LOTS of EXTRA BULLETS
TRESPASS AND WE WILL SHARE THEM WITH YOU!


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## cnsper (Sep 20, 2012)

"This house protected by shotgun 3 nights per week. YOU guess which 3!"


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## Wellrounded (Sep 25, 2011)

If you have an urge to 'raid' for items you need for goodness sake put them at the top of your 'must store' list. No way am I going to town for ANYTHING. I have what I need, that's what I put aside FIRST. If you're thinking of raiding for material gain then whatever happens to you you deserve. 

On the subject of getting rid of inedible meat, look up composting livestock. We have a mesh cage that can be placed over an animal and we stuff it full of straw or leaves or anything that has a high carbon:nitrogen ratio. No smell and the bones go to the pigs in 12 months or burnt to make nice little calcium snacks for the chickens. Digging a trench inside the cage perimeter will catch any liquids and the organic matter will soak it up.


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## HardCider (Dec 13, 2013)

cnsper said:


> "This house protected by shotgun 3 nights per week. YOU guess which 3!"


Other local sign I like (my personal favorite) "Ain't nothing up here worth you dying for" plain, simple and right to the point.


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## NATIVEBONES (Feb 3, 2014)

Lol


Survive and Thrive


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

Dakine said:


> NO EXTRA FOOD or WATER, LOTS of EXTRA BULLETS
> TRESPASS AND WE WILL SHARE THEM WITH YOU!


I truly do enjoy this type of sign. I find them funny and to the point. A word of caution, before you put one on your property think how you will explain that in court. If Bundy had a sign like that what would you have seen on the nightly news?


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

Caribou said:


> I truly do enjoy this type of sign. I find them funny and to the point. A word of caution, before you put one on your property think how you will explain that in court. If Bundy had a sign like that what would you have seen on the nightly news?


We don't call 9-1-1 & certainly not the news.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

tsrwivey said:


> We don't call 9-1-1 & certainly not the news.


Should that terrible day ever come you will call 9-1-1 and explaining that body will be a lot easier without the "forget the dog beware of the owner" or "this house guarded by S&W" sign. I won't be on your jury and the prosecutor will do his best to see that people like us here are nowhere near the jury box.

One of the things I prep for is to survive the legal system after a self defense situation. Even if you are found innocent you could end up paying well into the six figures for a legal defense. A recent study suggests that four percent of the people on death row are innocent. Every year around 8000 convicted people are let out of prison because they are found to be innocent.

At the bottom of each of my posts there is a link to an organization that help protect people after a self defense action. I've sent enough people to their website that I got a thank you, but I have not received a nickel off my dues. It costs nothing to read their journal. I strongly recommend that you go there and read as many back issue as you have time for. Knowing how to deal with legal issues is just another skill.


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## Country Living (Dec 15, 2009)

Caribou said:


> I truly do enjoy this type of sign. I find them funny and to the point. A word of caution, before you put one on your property think how you will explain that in court. If Bundy had a sign like that what would you have seen on the nightly news?


It's the same thing as putting up a sign to _Beware of Dog_ (or something similar) because any defense you use in court for a dog bite just went down the tubes. Adding to the problem - if someone from your insurance company does a drive-by and sees the sign you'll get a cancellation notice in the mail.

I must say living out in the boonies has several advantages, one being everyone - even the bad guys - know you are not only armed; but, you also know how to shoot reasonably well. If you're out on the property, you probably have a firearm either on you or within quick reach. Signs are not needed.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

Even if you were the first person to raid a place after it hits the fan, you might be murdered on your way out by people coming in.

After it hits the fan there won't be any gas to buy. A car would useless unless you have gasoline stored at home.


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## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

I don't need signs at my place. It is a 'manufactured homes' community of 284 lots ranging from 1.5 to 5 acres each. Dirt road through it off a rural macadam road. Anyone scoping out the place will hear gunshots going off at just about anytime, except at night that is. I feel very safe knowing that most of my neighbors are armed and regularly practice in their back yards. Any bad guys would see and hear this and move on. There are several $300,000 to $500,000 communities just a mile or two up the road. You don't hear any gunshots coming from them.

Sure, they could take a chance and break into my community knowing that the chances of finding a gun to steal were very good. But, the chances of finding that gun with someone on the other end was just as good. The expensive places just up the road would look like a much better target, at least to me. Setting off an alarm would give them 5 minutes before anyone would arrive. Breaking into my community would give the owners much more time before anyone arrived, if at all.


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## Hooch (Jul 22, 2011)

...but a new car look so pimp yo!!! 

.. drive it like he stole it lookin fine lookin fine in ah' new g'ride...OOOHhhh..... 

...what'cho mean he cant buy gas...just use the plastic..that he probably raided too...

..genius..fo'real...shoo'dawg... he'ah gangster!

:wave:


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## millertimedoneright (May 13, 2013)

I have to comment on this. I would bet my paycheck that 90 percent of the high and mighty types around here would raid somewhere if it became necessary. It's easy to say what you would or wouldn't do but the fact is if any of us get desperate we will do whatever it takes for our families. I bet you won't be so against "raiding" if your house gets looted or burned down the first week of shtf. We prep so we don't have to steal or worry but the fact remains that anything can happen and having a high and mighty attitude will get you killed just as fast as being a thief come shtf. I personally can see some benefits to a car dealership that no one else can seem to see. While it would not be my first choice their is resources to be had there. All the batteries one would need for a solar battery bank could be got their easily. Plenty of cloth and foam insulation. Vending machine with snacks. Plenty of electrical wire could have many uses. Lots of gas and oil to be had there. Could possibly get you a useful vehicle. All the tires you would ever need could be got there. Replacement parts for your vehicle. My point is that everywhere will have useful resources and if the shtf you can't overlook anything if you want to survive. 


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

millertimedoneright said:


> I have to comment on this. I would bet my paycheck that 90 percent of the high and mighty types around here would raid somewhere if it became necessary. It's easy to say what you would or wouldn't do but the fact is if any of us get desperate we will do whatever it takes for our families. I bet you won't be so against "raiding" if your house gets looted or burned down the first week of shtf. We prep so we don't have to steal or worry but the fact remains that anything can happen and having a high and mighty attitude will get you killed just as fast as being a thief come shtf. I personally can see some benefits to a car dealership that no one else can seem to see. While it would not be my first choice their is resources to be had there. All the batteries one would need for a solar battery bank could be got their easily. Plenty of cloth and foam insulation. Vending machine with snacks. Plenty of electrical wire could have many uses. Lots of gas and oil to be had there. Could possibly get you a useful vehicle. All the tires you would ever need could be got there. Replacement parts for your vehicle. My point is that everywhere will have useful resources and if the shtf you can't overlook anything if you want to survive.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


Scavenging and raiding are 2 very different things...

*raid*
rād/
noun
noun: raid; plural noun: raids

1.
a sudden attack on an enemy by troops, aircraft, or other armed forces in warfare.
"a bombing raid"
*synonyms:	attack, assault, descent, blitz, incursion, sortie; More
onslaught, storming, charge, offensive, invasion, blitzkrieg*
"the raid on Dieppe"
a surprise attack to commit a crime, especially to steal from business premises.
"an early morning raid on a bank"
a surprise visit by police to arrest suspected people or seize illicit goods.
synonyms:	search; More
informalbust, takedown, shakedown
"a police raid"
Stock Market
a hostile attempt to buy a major or controlling interest in the shares of a company.

verb
verb: raid; 3rd person present: raids; past tense: raided; past participle: raided; gerund or present participle: raiding

1.
conduct a raid on.
"officers raided thirty homes yesterday"
*synonyms:	attack, assault, set upon, descend on, swoop on, blitz, assail, storm, rush*
"they raided shipping in the harbor"
rob, hold up, break into;
plunder, steal from, pillage, loot, ransack, sack;
informa lstick up, heist
"armed men raided the store"
quickly and illicitly take something from (a place).
"she crept down the stairs to raid the pantry"

*scav·enge*
ˈskavənj/
verb
verb: scavenge; 3rd person present: scavenges; past tense: scavenged; past participle: scavenged; gerund or present participle: scavenging

search for and collect (anything usable) from discarded waste.
"people sell junk scavenged from the garbage"
*synonyms:	forage, rummage, search, hunt, look, root around/about, grub around/about* 
"they scavenge for food in the restaurant's trash cans"
(of an animal) search for (carrion) as food.
search for discarded items or food in (a place).
"the mink is still commonly seen scavenging the beaches of California"
remove (combustion products) from the cylinder of an internal combustion engine on the return stroke of the piston.
Chemistry
combine with and remove (molecules, groups, etc.) from a particular medium.
"chlorine molecules can scavenge ozone at a very fast rate"


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## hashbrown (Sep 2, 2013)

millertimedoneright said:


> I have to comment on this. I would bet my paycheck that 90 percent of the high and mighty types around here would raid somewhere if it became necessary. It's easy to say what you would or wouldn't do but the fact is if any of us get desperate we will do whatever it takes for our families. I bet you won't be so against "raiding" if your house gets looted or burned down the first week of shtf. We prep so we don't have to steal or worry but the fact remains that anything can happen and having a high and mighty attitude will get you killed just as fast as being a thief come shtf. I personally can see some benefits to a car dealership that no one else can seem to see. While it would not be my first choice their is resources to be had there. All the batteries one would need for a solar battery bank could be got their easily. Plenty of cloth and foam insulation. Vending machine with snacks. Plenty of electrical wire could have many uses. Lots of gas and oil to be had there. Could possibly get you a useful vehicle. All the tires you would ever need could be got there. Replacement parts for your vehicle. My point is that everywhere will have useful resources and if the shtf you can't overlook anything if you want to survive.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


I'm going to tell you, I aint raiding nothin! I don't mind trapping, eating what I can find or grow, done that shit for better than forty years. Prepping is BS I want nothing to do with people in my everyday life and damn sure don't want anyone around my little family when shit goes wrong. Raiding is not the way to survive! Far as I'm concerned a good defense is the only way and knowing how to live in the


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## hashbrown (Sep 2, 2013)

millertimedoneright said:


> I have to comment on this. I would bet my paycheck that 90 percent of the high and mighty types around here would raid somewhere if it became necessary. It's easy to say what you would or wouldn't do but the fact is if any of us get desperate we will do whatever it takes for our families. I bet you won't be so against "raiding" if your house gets looted or burned down the first week of shtf. We prep so we don't have to steal or worry but the fact remains that anything can happen and having a high and mighty attitude will get you killed just as fast as being a thief come shtf. I personally can see some benefits to a car dealership that no one else can seem to see. While it would not be my first choice their is resources to be had there. All the batteries one would need for a solar battery bank could be got their easily. Plenty of cloth and foam insulation. Vending machine with snacks. Plenty of electrical wire could have many uses. Lots of gas and oil to be had there. Could possibly get you a useful vehicle. All the tires you would ever need could be got there. Replacement parts for your vehicle. My point is that everywhere will have useful resources and if the shtf you can't overlook anything if you want to survive.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


I'm going to tell you, I aint raiding nothin! I don't mind trapping, eating what I can find or grow, done that shit for better than forty years now. I want nothing to do with people in my everyday life and damn sure don't want anyone around my little family when shit goes wrong. Raiding is not the way to survive! Far as I'm concerned raiding is only for the day. My family has lived like things have already gone bad for the as long as I have been sucking air. When is the last time you ate a muskrat, gathered morel mushrooms, trapped pelt or lived without a heat source that was not plugged in from a utility? I don't have to raid, I'll have whatever you have in 30 days no matter. Prep on!


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

Caribou said:


> Should that terrible day ever come you will call 9-1-1 and explaining that body will be a lot easier without the "forget the dog beware of the owner" or "this house guarded by S&W" sign. I won't be on your jury and the prosecutor will do his best to see that people like us here are nowhere near the jury box.
> 
> One of the things I prep for is to survive the legal system after a self defense situation. Even if you are found innocent you could end up paying well into the six figures for a legal defense. A recent study suggests that four percent of the people on death row are innocent. Every year around 8000 convicted people are let out of prison because they are found to be innocent.
> 
> At the bottom of each of my posts there is a link to an organization that help protect people after a self defense action. I've sent enough people to their website that I got a thank you, but I have not received a nickel off my dues. It costs nothing to read their journal. I strongly recommend that you go there and read as many back issue as you have time for. Knowing how to deal with legal issues is just another skill.


I understand what you're saying, and I agree. Today is completely different from WROL though..

I also get the point millertime is saying what if you're house is burned down... man life sucks, I'm hoping to start diversifying my larder soon so that an emergency here is not so bad if I can still get to "there"


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

Dakine said:


> I understand what you're saying, and I agree. Today is completely different from WROL though..
> 
> I also get the point millertime is saying what if you're house is burned down... man life sucks, I'm hoping to start diversifying my larder soon so that an emergency here is not so bad if I can still get to "there"


I hear you. WROL will suck and I might wind up scavenging if things are bad enough for long enough but I won't start out that way. By the time I need to scavenge things will have thinned out. I will never steal from someone. If things are bad enough then abandoned property is another matter. Those people who have a plan to start out stealing are a danger to themselves and others.

My larder is already in three places so a fire, flood, or raid will not starve me out or turn me into a thief. As much as I hate to beg I would do that first and I have skills to trade.


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## millertimedoneright (May 13, 2013)

The way I see it is places like car dealerships and other non essential businesses will be long abandoned and forgot by most after the masses start dying off. Call it scavenging, raiding, or stealing if you want but in a shtf I will have no issues taking what me or my family could use from an abandoned business. I prep so I don't have to steal but in the end you never know what circumstances you may face so to condemn others for something you may be forced to do is ignorant in my opinion. The fact is you no one knows what they would do if in true need. Your house may burn or be looted. Your land may be tainted or crops destroyed. Local game animals and potential food sources could become scarce or non existent. It's easy to sit back and say what you would do or wouldn't do in good times but it's another to actually do it if put in a position of extreme starvation. Rob a vending machine or let your wife and children starve? Break into a pharmacy or let your child die of infection? Would any prepper want to ever steal? No we wouldn't. I do believe though as a prepper you have to have a survivalist mentality and that means doing what is necessary in order to provide for your family. 


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

millertimedoneright said:


> The way I see it is places like car dealerships and other non essential businesses will be long abandoned and forgot by most after the masses start dying off. Call it scavenging, raiding, or stealing if you want but in a shtf I will have no issues taking what me or my family could use from an abandoned business. I prep so I don't have to steal but in the end you never know what circumstances you may face so to condemn others for something you may be forced to do is ignorant in my opinion. The fact is you no one knows what they would do if in true need. Your house may burn or be looted. Your land may be tainted or crops destroyed. Local game animals and potential food sources could become scarce or non existent. It's easy to sit back and say what you would do or wouldn't do in good times but it's another to actually do it if put in a position of extreme starvation. Rob a vending machine or let your wife and children starve? Break into a pharmacy or let your child die of infection? Would any prepper want to ever steal? No we wouldn't. I do believe though as a prepper you have to have a survivalist mentality and that means doing what is necessary in order to provide for your family.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


If the location/items are abandoned I see it as scavenging and it would be fine if a person had to.  If it means taking something- anything from a living person that had possession of it then it is raiding and I will not do it. I want to fly under the radar and hide in plain sight to survive. Why piss off a possibly larger group by stealing from them?! They might/will murder my group/family to get it back. Why die if you don't have to?!


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## millertimedoneright (May 13, 2013)

Very true however I don't see a car dealership owner sitting around defending his new cars instead of tending to his family. In the end it is all stealing cuz how will you truly know anything you take is not someone's stash? You can try to make everything seem moral in however way you see necessary but in my opinion we must all be willing to do immoral things in case our best laid plans fail if we plan to survive. It's a dog eat dog world and only the tough survive. While I hope no one here ever needs anything outside of their preps I do feel that at least some of us will be put in a bad position and will have to do what it takes to survive. Any of us would kill an animal for food but very few could kill a human being if it became necessary. Everyone says they will do the moral thing when times are good but if your daughter was deadly sick and your neighbor had an overwhelming supply of antibiotics and refused to give or trade any what would you do? 


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## bkt (Oct 10, 2008)

Please be patient with me - I'm a relative newbie. It seems zombiesarehere dropped a turd on the table then ran. He's got two posts (that I could see) and they're both in this thread. My objective is not to troll or stir the pot.

But this thread got me thinking. As a prepper, I'd think "shame on me" if I were ever caught without something I needed. But the unforeseen can happen and some storage areas can disappear. So I asked myself, Is there a time when I would consider raiding someone else's supplies. My nature is to say no, and to offer my services (knowledge and whatever I have with me) in exchange for access to what I might need. But until put to that test...I don't know.

There's *needing* something for yourself or a loved one, without which they'll die, and then there's wanting to horde something to give yourself power. The latter is completely repulsive to me. The former...I would try everything else first before taking forcibly from someone else.

What do you folks think?


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

The whole premise of "raiding" immediately upon SHTF is what annoys folks. The fact is preppers will be high on the list of folks being raided, so not only do folks disagree, but someone like the OP is a problem the moment SHTF.

Now if he had used a word like "scavenging" he woulld have gotten a more balanced response, or if he asked where you'd go shopping for last minute supplies just as a crisis was unfolding he might have gotten a very positive response.


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## bkt (Oct 10, 2008)

Geek999 said:


> The whole premise of "raiding" immediately upon SHTF is what annoys folks. The fact is preppers will be high on the list of folks being raided, so not only do folks disagree, but someone like the OP is a problem the moment SHTF.
> 
> Now if he had used a word like "scavenging" he woulld have gotten a more balanced response, or if he asked where you'd go shopping for last minute supplies just as a crisis was unfolding he might have gotten a very positive response.


Sure, I agree. Scavenging is one thing. Raiding - taking stuff from others by force - is completely different and I do not advocate it.

We can be as prepared as we can get in our environs but it could be there's a time when someone else has something we truly need.

Does one person's need - and we're talking life and death, here - outweigh another person's greed or otherwise pigheaded refusal to provide whatever it is that is needed?

This is a philosophical question but it may be one many people encounter if there is any large-scale long-term disruption.


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## Gians (Nov 8, 2012)

Yes the OP did make it sound like the "raid" was going to happen right off the bat, which I don't agree with. If we get desperate over the long haul, I'd look for abandoned items, old orchards, wild food, abandoned fuel supplies. It all depends on what emergency has happened. But really we are prepping so that we can last on our own for an extended period of time, without taking from others.
The time to prep is now, tomorrow is today. If you live at home still, talk to your parents about emergency preparedness. If they blow you off, then you'll have to learn and prep on your own, maybe learn how to plant a garden, learn CPR, how to shut off the gas, where to go and who to contact if away from home, how to put together a good first aid kit, etc... Much about being ready isn't exciting or glamorous, but it is effective. Lots of better ideas spread around this forum, makes for good reading


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

millertimedoneright said:


> Very true however I don't see a car dealership owner sitting around defending his new cars instead of tending to his family. In the end it is all stealing cuz how will you truly know anything you take is not someone's stash? You can try to make everything seem moral in however way you see necessary but in my opinion we must all be willing to do immoral things in case our best laid plans fail if we plan to survive. It's a dog eat dog world and only the tough survive. While I hope no one here ever needs anything outside of their preps I do feel that at least some of us will be put in a bad position and will have to do what it takes to survive. Any of us would kill an animal for food but very few could kill a human being if it became necessary. Everyone says they will do the moral thing when times are good but if your daughter was deadly sick and your neighbor had an overwhelming supply of antibiotics and refused to give or trade any what would you do?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


Have you ever considered that the car dealer defending his inventory is protecting his assets and therefore his means to feed his family. I guess with a rationalization like that it would be easier to kill the car dealer that was not "defending" his family in a manner approved by you.

Having premarital sex may be immoral but it is not rape. Just where are you willing to draw the line with your morality. Stealing from the dead or from someone that has abandoned their property may be stealing but that is a whole different level of morality than stealing from a living person. Are you really willing to steal to feed your family while another family starves because of your actions. Shame on you.

I can't see someone with "an overwhelming supply of antibiotics" that would refuse to sell or trade. Were I that neighbor I may well not want to have any dealings with you. In fact I wouldn't want you on my property.


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## Country Living (Dec 15, 2009)

bkt said:


> Please be patient with me - I'm a relative newbie. It seems zombiesarehere dropped a turd on the table then ran. He's got two posts (that I could see) and they're both in this thread. My objective is not to troll or stir the pot.
> 
> But this thread got me thinking. As a prepper, I'd think "shame on me" if I were ever caught without something I needed. But the unforeseen can happen and some storage areas can disappear. So I asked myself, Is there a time when I would consider raiding someone else's supplies. My nature is to say no, and to offer my services (knowledge and whatever I have with me) in exchange for access to what I might need. But until put to that test...I don't know.
> 
> ...


It's easy to be an armchair psychologist and come up with several reasons when doing the wrong thing is right. What these very personal types of decisions come down to is our own moral compass. I think those of us in the prepper mode have a different mindset and maybe a slightly different ethics/morality gauge than that of the general non-prepper group.

Those who prep know we will be faced with all kinds of decisions that must be made before, during, and after an event. Some decisions will be very difficult. As preppers, we are aware of the responsibility to do what we can to mitigate having to do something that goes against our values. Most of us have walked through - in our minds and with our family/friends - what would happen "if".

As Geek said, the word raiding is offensive. It shows lack of preparedness, lack of planning, and unadulterated selfishness in reacting to something for which there should have been at least a Plan A. _If I don't have it, I'll just take it._ You can justify anything - to a degree. Smashing the store window to take the TV... they have lots of them, they have insurance to cover the loss, and you need a new TV.



> Does one person's need - and we're talking life and death, here - outweigh another person's greed or otherwise pigheaded refusal to provide whatever it is that is needed?


Your life and death may mean their life and death. Just because you need it doesn't make them "pigheaded" by refusing to give it to you. You're thrusting your moral dilemma on someone else and are trying to make it their problem.

Let's take a specific example. Your child has Type 1 diabetes. You're running short of insulin and the pharmacy is closed and you have no way to replenish your supplies. Under your premise, you feel it's your right to go to the people down the street who also have a diabetic child and take from them. Saving your child costs them their child.

Another example. You chose not to store enough food for your family to get them through a six month event. Stores are closed. Gas stations are closed. It's going to be a cold winter and you were just too busy to put in that wood stove or get enough firewood to last through the winter. Then you go to your neighbors and demand they feed and house your family.

It's no different that the decision we had to make when we were in philosophy class in college. You're driving down a steep incline and the brakes go out in your car. If you keep the car on the road a short distance down is a safe exit area (sand, padded railings, etc.) You're picking up speed and the safe area is in sight. You breathe a sigh of relief.... until you see the stopped school bus right in the area you need to go and it's full of kids. What do you do?

Someone denying you something you feel you must have doesn't make them bad. They're just like everyone else - trying to take care of their family the best they can during a bad situation. That doesn't make them the enemy.


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## millertimedoneright (May 13, 2013)

Once again it's easy for you to sound high and mighty in these good times. You do not have a child or family in need. No one said anything about murdering another family for your survival. If my neighbor had a huge stash of antibiotics and my stash was obliterated somehow and my daughter or son needed them I could sit here and talk about how great of a person I am and how I wouldn't steal blah blah blah or I can be truthful and say I really don't know how I would react. The fact is talk about how great your moral compass is all you want. Most everyone has a great moral compass until they are desperate. Those with "great morals" will be the first to mentally breakdown and will "slowly stretch" their morals to fit whatever situation that helps them. The only difference between me and many other preppers is I'm willing to admit that I don't know what I would do. My family and children come first to me always. I will do whatever I can to protect them and care for them(hence my prepping). It's like the same song on repeat around here. All I hear is how peoples morals don't allow them to steal unless they think the owner is dead then it becomes ok. 90% of people will steal and kill to survive. Survival is the strongest human instinct but I'm expected to believe you wouldn't swipe a handful of antibiotics from someone's huge stash if your child's or spouses life depended on it. 


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## Norse (Jan 30, 2010)

You must be talking a ELE...........Extinction level event.......in that case.....


1. Because things go South does not give you a license to be a criminal piece of fecal matter. That is the point of being a prepper.....so you do not have to become what most preppers despise........just another poor sap who did not see it coming.

2. The mayhem of such a event is pretty much already been seen.... in closed locations. Like Hurricane Katrina or the Rodney King riots......the best place to be in a major SHTF event is NOT COMING IN CONTACT WITH ANYONE ELSE FOR AT LEAST 60 DAYS.

By that time.....unfortunately the vast majority of unprepared folks will sadly and most likely already perished. 

3.Some other badass may be willing to go further down the scumbag road of barbarity.... while looting the last can of baked beans.

4. THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT OF BEING PREPPER GENIUS........SO SOME EX NAVY SEAL DON 'T TAKE YOU OUT....... BECAUSE YOU WERE LOOTING HIS FATHER IN LAWS GROCERY STORE DURING A CRISIS.


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## RJJackson (Sep 28, 2012)

Terminology is a big thing. Raiding is taking something by force. Looting rates about the same. A subtle difference between the two but both are criminal acts that will in all probability get someone hurt or killed. 

To relate to the OP and their zombie name, this example should hopefully put things into perspective. The 1978 version of Dawn of the Dead, who were the looters/raiders in that film? 

A) The SWAT guys and the TV helicopter dude and his girlfriend who took shelter in the mall

OR

B) The biker gang that shows up at the end and trashes the mall


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

Norse said:


> You must be talking a ELE...........Extinction level event.......in that case.....
> 
> 1. Because things go South does not give you a license to be a criminal piece of fecal matter. That is the point of being a prepper.....so you do not have to become what most preppers despise........just another poor sap who did not see it coming.
> 
> ...


:kiss:
:congrat: :congrat: :congrat: :congrat: :congrat:


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

RJJackson said:


> Terminology is a big thing. Raiding is taking something by force. Looting rates about the same. A subtle difference between the two but both are criminal acts that will in all probability get someone hurt or killed.
> 
> To relate to the OP and their zombie name, this example should hopefully put things into perspective. The 1978 version of Dawn of the Dead, who were the looters/raiders in that film?
> 
> ...


I tried to differentiate between the two using the dictionary definitions but it seems to have flown right over some folks' heads. I hope your illustration works better.


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## Country Living (Dec 15, 2009)

In spite of millertime's histrionics, he does bring to light an important point. The drugs that will be most needed, and in immediate short supply, after an event will be the antipsychotic meds.


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## HardCider (Dec 13, 2013)

It's probably just me but I'm tiring of the whole zombie this and zombie that. When the poo hits the fan(like in my hurricane prone area, or economic collapse) it's usually a case of having water, food, shelter, and a little space while not being tyed to electric or petro fuel, that and flying under the radar. Ya'll that live in heavily populated areas, I don't envy you. Good Luck


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## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

Folks have some good points that you really do not know how you would react in a certain situation. Insulin and antibiotics were brought up as examples. If you, or a family member, have a need for them, why haven't you seen that and done your preparations accordingly? Obviously the folks you are looking to STEAL them from have planned ahead. Why else would they have "more than they needed" and have extra on hand? Not sure you may need antibiotics after an event? Well then, why not at least have a bottle of peroxide, a tube of Neosporin, some band-aids, an herb garden or SOMETHING that might help ahead of time? I will be willing to BARTER for some Yarrow, Skullcap, tinctures or teas but they are not there for the taking. I have ace bandages and packages of gauze that are 10 years old, never used locked in a plastic case. I may never need them but there they are, just in case. I suggest you that plan to STEAL them, think the same way.

Think ahead folks. Plan ahead. I really do not know what I would do in one of those situations, I would like to think my morals would not change, but you really never know.

In a temporary SHTF natural disaster I would be happy to share what I have, and have done so with neighbors. In a total SHTF ELE situation most likely not. If there is some medication or special supplies one of you or your children need, why is that not #1 on your list of things to stock up on???

As far as the anti-depressant crowd. Yeah, when they run out of their 30 day supply they will be trouble. Some will come around after they break out of their drug induced euphoria and come back to reality. Others will be real trouble.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Country Living said:


> In spite of millertime's histrionics, he does bring to light an important point. The drugs that will be most needed, and in immediate short supply, after an event will be the antipsychotic meds.


I have some medical supplies, intend to obtain more over time and would try to help others. However, I am not stocking antipsychotic medications as no one in my group is psychotic.

In WROL lead will be the preferred substitute for antipsychotic meds. It will be administered at dosages from 1,000 to 3,000fps.


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## alwaysready (May 16, 2012)

The OP said the first place to raid after SHTF. On the surface it sounds like someone that just can't wait for their opportunity to engage in criminal behavior. Maybe he's just young or maybe it was a poor choice of words. If he really meant raid then he is wrong. I also read the hypothetical "what if". Anyone who can think up a "what if" has foreseen a potential problem and should be working on a solution while there is still time. If the SHTF ever does happen it will truly be a dog eat dog world. I find that those who would do harm to others usually make two mistakes. They underestimate their intended victims and they fail to realize that there is always someone out there who is bigger and badder than they are.


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## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

Let's look at two possibilities of survivors. 

One, a sudden die off of a majority of the population. No one would be "looting" or "raiding." With the loss of an intact infrastructure of civilization, there are no longer property laws and mercantile commerce. Everything is up for grabs for whomever can make it work.

Two. No mass die off. Total warfare, for example. Economic collapse, no intact infrastructure and plenty of desperate people. Looting and pillaging is rampant. (Note every city under a state of war since 1945 to the present.) Buildings may be burned to the ground, damaged or just defaced. The Balkans 1993-2003, Egypt, Syria, Libya 2012, Central America and Africa ca. 1977-1989. 

Somehow, these posts give me the mental pictures of the Terminator future scenes, The Book of Eli, The Crazies, Carriers. But also for the first scenario: Volcano, Dante's Peak, The Andromeda Strain, The Holocaust (mini-series 1979), The Dogs of War and The Wildgeese, Shot Through the Heart.


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## millertimedoneright (May 13, 2013)

The scenario I presented was based on the premise that some disaster happened and your preps were destroyed. I prep anything I feel I could possibly use but I also prep mentally in case the worst happens and my preps are destroyed. 


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

millertimedoneright said:


> The scenario I presented was based on the premise that some disaster happened and your preps were destroyed. I prep anything I feel I could possibly use but I also prep mentally in case the worst happens and my preps are destroyed.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


No. What you are trying to do is to rationalize. Somehow you are trying to make it right in your mind that if you run out of something and I am better prepared then it is okay for you to take my supplies.

If I have the same medical condition, or my wife does, as one of your family members and you don't have enough meds too bad. I am not going to die from lack of meds because you were unprepared or didn't take proper precautions. On the other side of that I will not steal the life saving drugs from your child.


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## millertimedoneright (May 13, 2013)

No I'm trying to wake people like you up. It's easy to sound high and mighty and self righteous during good times over the Internet. It is another entirely to live by those words when you or your loved ones are in need. I prep so I never have to do anything immoral but don't think for a second I will stand back and watch my family and loved ones die unnecessarily. In my opinion anyone who wouldn't beg, borrow, or steal for the sake of their children in real times of need isn't much of a parent. I would do anything for my children including die for them and regardless of how high and mighty many on here want to seem I would bet my paycheck if times got desperate they would do the same. 


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## ras1219como (Jan 15, 2013)

I don't think anyone is saying that they won't do what they have to do to ensure the survival of their families. What I'm saying is I don't plan on stealing food or supplies from someone else's family. What kind of person would I be if I survived by stealing food from a child?

I can provide for myself and my family, after the SHTF, without stealing from another persons family. 
There is a significant difference between scavenging for abandoned resources and stealing resources.

I won't sacrifice my moral code of ethics. It's one of the only things that separates us from the dregs of society. 


Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum. Please forgive typos.


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## Country Living (Dec 15, 2009)

Has anyone seen Uncle Joe? I think it's time to turn off the lights and lock the door.


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## millertimedoneright (May 13, 2013)

That's my whole point. Human nature is and always will be to survive. At what point does it effect our moral code will be different for us all but to say that you will sit back and live off your preps and land is a dangerous idea. I'm just trying to get the group to look outside the circle of prepping cuz what happens if your crops and preps are destroyed. In order to survive we have to think outside the box and get away from the mentality that everything will happen just as we plan for it to. Would I sacrifice another family or child for mine? Nope. But I would swipe a handful of antibiotics if they had a large supply. Would I take things like supplies from places like an abandoned car dealership? You better believe it. Would I go out looking for trouble the day after catastrophe hits? No I'm set for a few months at least. Would I commit an armed assault on a family to steal their food? Hell no. But don't think for a second that half the population wouldn't steal or kill for your food and medicine when times get desperate. I truly hope everything goes how I plan it but when 30, 40, or 50 people come to your door demanding food who knows how it will turn out. The whole premise to my posts come down to us needing to be mentally prepared just as much if not more so than physically prepared. The mentally weak will not survive no matter how many preps they have unless they are just extremely lucky. 


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## NATIVEONE (Apr 29, 2014)

Raiding NO WAY not going to happen but scavenging I am okay with. but put in the choice of my family's survival or there family survival well I would like to think I would do the right thing but it is a situation where either he is going to kill you are you are going to kill him


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## NATIVEONE (Apr 29, 2014)

Raiding NO WAY not going to happen but scavenging I am okay with. but put in the choice of my family's survival or there family survival well I would like to think I would do the right thing but it is a situation where either he is going to kill you or you are going to kill him... So in the situation you will have to choose. It's like eye for an eye situation. Well thanks for taking your time to read this comment.
NATIVEONE


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

millertimedoneright said:


> ...will be to survive. ... I would swipe a handful of antibiotics if they had a large supply. ...


Who determines how large the supply has to be, that makes it OK to steal them?


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Country Living said:


> Has anyone seen Uncle Joe? I think it's time to turn off the lights and lock the door.


I'm finding the thread interesting. We're basically into what is ethical in a WROL situation. I think that is a worthwhille conversation.


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## millertimedoneright (May 13, 2013)

You are right what makes their supply big enough to take a handful for your children's or spouses survival? Would it make a difference to you if you knew they had stolen the meds in the first place? Everyone will have different answers on where their moral compass begins and ends. It's easy to say you would not steal under any circumstances until your children and family are sick or starving. Desperation will make most people do what they say they would never do. Would you kill a teenager or child if he stole your child's last bit of food or medicine? Would you beg, steal, kill, raid, or "scavenge" for your kids? How would each of us react in times of true desperation?


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## SixGun (Apr 10, 2012)

OK. I didn't read all the posts. 11 pages, I read half. The very beginning and the end. I think I have enough to jump in.

I understand where Millertime is coming from. He is not coming out to say he is a thief, he is simply pointing out that in a bad ass situation he is going to react to his surroundings. So would I. So would you.

Today, right this second I live in a society of civil minded people. The mass majority are law abiding citizens. I'm a good person, we help people when we can. Take all those good people away, take away a civil community.
What's left?


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## millertimedoneright (May 13, 2013)

Exactly. I'm just trying to get people to think outside the "I'm a prepper I will not be in a bad situation after the shtf" state of mind. We as preppers get too soft in our mentality since we see what's coming when others can't. We believe since we see it coming we will be prepared.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

millertimedoneright said:


> You are right what makes their supply big enough to take a handful for your children's or spouses survival? Would it make a difference to you if you knew they had stolen the meds in the first place? Everyone will have different answers on where their moral compass begins and ends. It's easy to say you would not steal under any circumstances until your children and family are sick or starving. Desperation will make most people do what they say they would never do. Would you kill a teenager or child if he stole your child's last bit of food or medicine? Would you beg, steal, kill, raid, or "scavenge" for your kids? How would each of us react in times of true desperation?


This is my last visit to this thread so in departure I will leave you with one last thing to think about. Every time you go out to raid you put your life at risk. Most others will help where the can and most will defend when they must. For your plan to work you have to win every time. These odds are not in your favor. If you are killed in a raid you can do nothing further for your family, ever. Good luck.


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## SixGun (Apr 10, 2012)

If you raid, you will die.
If you stay with your stores, you will die.
If you steal from Grammy, you will die.
If you give to those in need, you will die.
If you take care of your family and eat Fiddo, you will die.
If you stay on your 10,000 acre ranch with endless water and food, away from the broken down society. One day you will come out of your bunker to clean the barrels on those 50's and a raider will kill you.


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## SmugWaffle (Mar 26, 2012)

How many are thinking of raiding in terms of an armed assault?

How many are thinking in terms of B&E style robbery? Structure may or may not be vacant/abandoned.

How many are thinking in terms of searching through obviously vacant/abandoned structures?
====================
I would never full-on raid anybody. Too risky, morals don't even come into play here.

If it was a steal or die situation, I would steal what I need from someone else.

Searching abandoned structures is nothing more than scavenging. Just don't get complacent and fall into a booby trap.


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## bkt (Oct 10, 2008)

Respectfully, I asked "Does one person's need - and we're talking life and death, here - outweigh another person's greed or otherwise pigheaded refusal to provide whatever it is that is needed?", but I didn't take one side or the other and I'm not thrusting my moral dilemma on anyone. 

Certainly, if I failed to stock up on supplies I know I would need then I have no right to take or demand similar supplies someone else was intelligent enough to stock up on. Hopefully, I can barter with someone to get what I need. But then again, is there anything you would not do for your child?

Most people I know are preppers but that's due more to the circles I travel in more than prepping being wildly popular. Most people don't have more than a week or two worth of food on hand, let alone medical supplies, water purification, etc. I suspect they will be the ones inclined to beg, plead and ultimately raid.

Again...I'm not taking one side or the other. I'm just throwing out ideas for discussion because it will help me think it through ahead of time. 



Country Living said:


> It's easy to be an armchair psychologist and come up with several reasons when doing the wrong thing is right. What these very personal types of decisions come down to is our own moral compass. I think those of us in the prepper mode have a different mindset and maybe a slightly different ethics/morality gauge than that of the general non-prepper group.
> 
> Those who prep know we will be faced with all kinds of decisions that must be made before, during, and after an event. Some decisions will be very difficult. As preppers, we are aware of the responsibility to do what we can to mitigate having to do something that goes against our values. Most of us have walked through - in our minds and with our family/friends - what would happen "if".
> 
> ...


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## doubleTHICK (Jun 19, 2012)

I love threads like this, they are the hard questions that people don't like to ask or answer.

Would I raid? Simple answer is Yes. But first I would have to determine what 'raid' means. If it passes the first test then I would have to consider when. When can I justify to myself that this is the best decision I can make; when is it so bad that I will consider this and make my answer Yes. I don't know that BUT I do know that there is a threshold for me to consider the option.

Although I was not affected by Katrina I did see coverage and internet photos and it made me believe that people will turn, and man they turn fast. I don't underestimate America's ability to be civil one moment and barbaric the very next second. This is not for any one particular part of our society - but the newer generations have been assimilated into depending a great deal on the government and have an even higher sense of entitlement. When Big Brother is not there to help them it's not going to be good, not good at all.
But I still don't think the above is close to my threshold of raid mode. Actually like most here the above will be the hide/stay out of sight/bug-in/invisible phase.

Now to the question of where to go 'scavenging': 
1) auto parts store
2) office buildings
3) veterinary (a lot of the medicines are interchangeable)
4) Goodwill for clothing (assuming the masses would go to big retail places for their clothing needs)

To be honest, as I was making that list it felt very uncomfortable. I hope like hell I NEVER need to put the list into use. #scarytimes


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

Caribou said:


> This is my last visit to this thread so in departure I will leave you with one last thing to think about. Every time you go out to raid you put your life at risk. Most others will help where the can and most will defend when they must. For your plan to work you have to win every time. These odds are not in your favor. If you are killed in a raid you can do nothing further for your family, ever. Good luck.


QFT

If you(or anyone) are already rationalizing what it's okay to take away from someone else, you're only prepping to be a raider/looter.

A lot of people will enter that profession, they will also find out that it's a big boys world and even those that think they are prepped by having a gun are gonna have a really bad day when they go looking for dinner where they don't belong.


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## millertimedoneright (May 13, 2013)

Dakine said:


> QFT
> 
> If you(or anyone) are already rationalizing what it's okay to take away from someone else, you're only prepping to be a raider/looter.
> 
> A lot of people will enter that profession, they will also find out that it's a big boys world and even those that think they are prepped by having a gun are gonna have a really bad day when they go looking for dinner where they don't belong.


It's not prepping to be a looter it's preparing your self mentally for surviving in case something happens to your preps. We all prep so we can live peacefully and decently but the fact is you don't know if your preps will be there for you when you need them. If you aren't prepared for losing your preps then the only thing that will keep you alive is pure blind luck. Millions will want your preps and in most cases a small band of looters can destroy or steal what most people have. No amount of weapons or planning can stop a hundred starving and desperate people. You and your family are now starving, desperate, and homeless. Your child is deathly ill and you know of a local man who looted the local pharmacy and has thousands of antibiotics. You have nothing to barter so he laughs at your request for a handful of pills to save your child's life. You then have a choice. The man chooses profit over your child's life. Will you choose your daughters life over morals and greed or will you let her die? I know what I would do and what 95% of the population would do.

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## doubleTHICK (Jun 19, 2012)

I just don't feel that it is realistic for someone to think they will never go out and forage at some point. I answered the question to this post and like I said it was difficult to even make the list but I did. 
This is a prepping site and it should be about preparing for everything. This post started out as a damnation and has gained speed...why? This is a realistic question. There could EASILY be a point in every one of our life's where we are faced with this question. That's why you answer now when you can think about and play out scenarios instead of making a poor choice later on; better yet not even thinking and just reacting.

I truly, truly believe that at some point it is very possible that we all could be faced with this very question. It is something you should consider at least finding you proverbial line in the sand. For me it will take a lot before I leave my domain with the intent and sole purpose of scavenging. I mean A LOT.
But, I have thought about this tough question, and I have defined MY go or no go point.

Remember: You're not preparing for now but later, and nobody plans to fail they just fail to plan


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

the main problem with the original post in this thread is how it was presented, Raid as opposed to salvage. Raid sounds like what will you take from others.
Salvage is what will you gather if the owner is not going to use it and it is abandoned. HUGE difference here, Raiding if it follows the description above is asking to be terminated with extreme prejudice. Salvage on the other hand can help to keep a lot of people alive and well, just leaving things to rot does no one any good.


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## millertimedoneright (May 13, 2013)

You have to understand though that the majority of people see the word "raid" as used like if you go "raid" your refrigerator not in the context of an "armed raid". If you look at the context of how the op stated it it is obvious he didn't mean to commit an armed assault nor did he state he would immediately head to the dealership. He said where would you raid first he didn't say where would you head as soon as the shtf. So many people on here saw the word raid and immediately went off on the newbie all over his bad choice of word usage. I saw a person looking outside the box who could've possibly brought new insight to this forum filled with the same regurgitated talking points but now I doubt he will be back and once again do the the rudeness of the "high and mighty" around here we will lose what could be new refreshing ideas.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

yeah your probably right, we seem to like to trash the newbies here lately for not using proper English (which is a language designed to confuse the commoner and keep scribes in business ) and perhaps the same for the non member approved choice of words, if we are not careful with the newbies we won't be getting many especially the young ones, 'cause after all it is paramount to perpetuate two too many to s over actual prepared related discussion. 

After all those academic only professors at the post secondary institutions have done so much to keep society on track with their complete lack of practical application, we should help them by perpetuating "proper" use of the English code, I mean language


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## mikeymike (Mar 8, 2012)

Sad to say it but alot of kids these days would probaby raid Foot Locker or Best Buy. Just saying!


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## millertimedoneright (May 13, 2013)

Walmart, foot locker, best buy, and anywhere with anything of value


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

millertimedoneright said:


> You have to understand though that the majority of people see the word "raid" as used like if you go "raid" your refrigerator not in the context of an "armed raid". ...


Please provide references/polls/links that show that I'm in the minority.

Thank you.


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## millertimedoneright (May 13, 2013)

No need for references/links/polls when you use common sense. Look at the context of how the word is used and it's not difficult to figure out that he had no plans to commit an armed assault. How many times in the mainstream have you heard the words loot and raid instead of the word "scavenge"? If that doesn't tell you something then nothing will.

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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

TheLazyL said:


> Please provide references/polls/links that show that I'm in the minority.
> 
> Thank you.


I think Miller was using society as a whole as his basis and not the forum where here the community has already expressed what the definition of the word "raid" is. Just look at the posts that he claims are us acting high and mighty. Everyone sees the word "raid" as an aggressive word that can lead to more violence.

The folks here have already proven that we are not the societal norm and society's definitions and standards don't apply!


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## millertimedoneright (May 13, 2013)

If societal standards don't apply here then why throw him under the bus like society would for misusing a simple word. As soon as he said it anyone with common sense knew what he meant yet he still gets bashed. 


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

millertimedoneright said:


> If societal standards don't apply here then why throw him under the bus like society would for misusing a simple word. As soon as he said it anyone with common sense knew what he meant yet he still gets bashed.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


I'm sorry but I hardly see the members of this forum as part of the gimme-gimme-gimme faction of society. They are the norm now so again this forum are not part of the norm. If society sees the word "raid" in a sentence such as the OP's, "*What would be the first place you would raid / acquire gear if a zombie apocalypse or government downfall happened?*" They may think as you do and think it is innocent. Here in this forum we see that sentence and the one after it (*I would start with a car dealership then army surplus store.*) and see the OP as a marauder/thief.

Your opinion is yours and no one is trying to tell you you are wrong. Our opinions are ours and no one can tell us we are wrong. But I must say YOU are the minority here in the forum for your take on the OP's post.

As it has been said before, the OP was more than likely just trying to stir sh*t.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

Grimm said:


> I think Miller was using society as a whole as his basis and not the forum where here the community has already expressed what the definition of the word "raid" is. Just look at the posts that he claims are us acting high and mighty. Everyone sees the word "raid" as an aggressive word that can lead to more violence.
> 
> The folks here have already proven that we are not the societal norm and society's definitions and standards don't apply!


Ah...

My dander gets up when I'm _*told*_ what I think or are *told* what I saw.


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## doubleTHICK (Jun 19, 2012)

I read the title from the main page and was interested in some of the responses, then I started reading the post. To say the least I was taken back.
Being new here myself and contributing when I am able I wasn't sure what to think. Personally, it never crossed my mind that the OP meant any malicious acts to be taken; but that is my perception. 

I still hold steady that if worded better this is a reasonable idea to consider. While this has not happened to me personally it has happened to many others all over the world. 

Another one of my 'as I am typing this' moments I think I may be perpetuating this argument - if so- it is not my intent. Just sometimes we are faced with hard choices in life...


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## millertimedoneright (May 13, 2013)

The problem is when instead of using common sense people would rather jump to conclusions. Yes he didn't use the correct word. Cry me a river. Anyone with an ounce of common sense should have been able to tell that he meant no harm. He should've been informed of his mistake not bashed and ran into the ground. Was his post malicious or just mistaken as malicious? We will never know. I personally enjoy seeing someone around with a new perspective however so many of y'all would rather hear the same regurgitated story's and topics every day and freak out anytime someone who doesn't fit into what is your idea of the perfect citizen around here. Time and time again y'all run off new people cuz of y'all running your mouths. He could've possibly provided good information and provided a much needed alternate perspective around here. I think we need more people around here who think outside y'all's "prepper norm". For such sensitive people this group sure is filled with grit when a newbie arrives.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

millertimedoneright said:


> For such sensitive people this group sure is filled with grit when a newbie arrives.


You are very wrong on this point.

I see plenty of posts by new members that are welcomed by the forum. HECK! I didn't see anyone in this thread chastise the newbie but share their opinion which is what he asked for in the first place! If all the members saying they would not steal or "raid" is beating the noob to the ground then I think you are the one who is super sensitive.

Mods, I think we are beating a dead horse here.


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## hashbrown (Sep 2, 2013)

Raiding a Wal Mart or anyplace is just stupid. It puts you in dangers way out with the rest of the unprepared. All the raiding in the world will not take the place of a good skill set.


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## millertimedoneright (May 13, 2013)

The only posts by newbies that are welcomed are the ones who ask the same regurgitated questions that have been asked a million times. The ones that fit into this forums mold of "ok" questions. God forbid anyone ask a question that will get the regulars on here out of their zone of comfort by actually posting something different or something that will force people around here to think about something other than "what am I gonna can today" or "how do I grow a tomato plant". This forum is full of great people and great information but nothing new is ever brought up or it is quickly shot down. It's a catastrophe around here if someone is asked to actually think about their own mental toughness or how they would react to certain situations. 


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## Lake Windsong (Nov 27, 2009)

millertimedoneright said:


> The only posts by newbies that are welcomed are the ones who ask the same regurgitated questions that have been asked a million times. The ones that fit into this forums mold of "ok" questions. God forbid anyone ask a question that will get the regulars on here out of their zone of comfort by actually posting something different or something that will force people around here to think about something other than "what am I gonna can today" or "how do I grow a tomato plant". This forum is full of great people and great information but nothing new is ever brought up or it is quickly shot down. It's a catastrophe around here if someone is asked to actually think about their own mental toughness or how they would react to certain situations.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


Wow, tell us how you really feel.  When I disappear from the forum (and the internet in general), it's usually because I've downloaded some TOM or JDY PAW fiction and am taking my free time to read/plan and really think about the scenarios. Man, some of those stories and their main characters do things totally opposite of my way of thinking. So I get a chance to think outside my own background, skills, and morals and see things from a different angle. I think it's a good mental exercise for anyone who has difficulty with hypothetical questions on the forum.


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

millertimedoneright said:


> It's not prepping to be a looter it's preparing your self mentally for surviving in case something happens to your preps. We all prep so we can live peacefully and decently but the fact is you don't know if your preps will be there for you when you need them. If you aren't prepared for losing your preps then the only thing that will keep you alive is pure blind luck. Millions will want your preps and in most cases a small band of looters can destroy or steal what most people have. No amount of weapons or planning can stop a hundred starving and desperate people. You and your family are now starving, desperate, and homeless. Your child is deathly ill and you know of a local man who looted the local pharmacy and has thousands of antibiotics. You have nothing to barter so he laughs at your request for a handful of pills to save your child's life. You then have a choice. The man chooses profit over your child's life. Will you choose your daughters life over morals and greed or will you let her die? I know what I would do and what 95% of the population would do.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum





millertimedoneright said:


> You have to understand though that the majority of people see the word "raid" as used like if you go "raid" your refrigerator not in the context of an "armed raid". If you look at the context of how the op stated it it is obvious he didn't mean to commit an armed assault nor did he state he would immediately head to the dealership. He said where would you raid first he didn't say where would you head as soon as the shtf. So many people on here saw the word raid and immediately went off on the newbie all over his bad choice of word usage. I saw a person looking outside the box who could've possibly brought new insight to this forum filled with the same regurgitated talking points but now I doubt he will be back and once again do the the rudeness of the "high and mighty" around here we will lose what could be new refreshing ideas.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


If anyone feels it's okay to "raid" my house because they ran out of something they need, in the same "watered down" version of the word "RAID" as it applies to "raiding your refrigerator"...

well then...

You'll get to dynamically experience things I prepped for besides the food/water/meds that you believe YOU *NEED* more than *I* do...

We're still gonna share preps tho... so you'll be happy about that right? 

Molon Labe!


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

I think we covered that rather well ... 

Closed


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