# Are You Saving Your Nickels?



## UncleJoe

Legislation to change the metal composition of nickels is on the table. If it goes through (which in all likelihood it will) nickels produced before the change will begin to disappear just like silver coins did. 

Coin Composition Change Included In Obama's 2011 Budget

By Alec Nevalainen
Coinflation.com
February 02, 2010

This section appears in the Terminations, Reductions, and Savings portion of the budget. This document can be found at http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2011/assets/trs.pdf.

One omission from the proposed composition change is the Presidential and Native American Dollars. Either they are satisfied with the current composition or they were left out inadvertently (which I can understand, the Presidential dollar program is easily forgettable).

Full text from page 100:

OTHER SAVINGS: COINAGE MATERIAL
Department of the Treasury

The Budget proposes to provide the U.S. Mint with greater flexibility in the material composition of coins to reduce its losses on some coins and the production costs associated with volatile metal prices.

Justification

The Mint's primary cost driver is the price of metal, a factor over which it has no control. Daily spot prices of copper and zinc, the Mint's two main metallic materials, have fluctuated in excess of 100 percent, and the price of nickel by 500 percent in recent years.¹ This contributes to volatile and negative margins on both the penny and nickel: in recent years the penny has cost approximately 1.8 cents and the nickel approximately 9 cents to produce.² Costs have exceeded the value of these two coins by over $100 million in prior years. Through its gains on other coins, the Mint annually returns hundreds of millions of dollars to the Treasury General Fund (GF) and is funded by the Mint Public Enterprise Fund. ...

Stash away your nickels now.


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## Lake Windsong

*Nickels*

Interesting... thanks for the info. My dad always taught us from a young age to look at the dates on coins before we rolled them up or spent them. We'd go through piles of change, trying to be the kid with the most 'special coins'. I get strange looks from people when I look at the dates of loose change when making everyday transactions.  I'm glad he taught us from an early age, I've found several buffalo nickels as well as lots of 'junk silver' just from following his advice.


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## mdprepper

Stupid question.

Should I be saving the currently in use nickles (go to the bank and get rolls) or ones that are pre-19??

I alwas try to save old coins (because my son likes them) but was unaware of the composition of the coins.


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## TechAdmin

I guess I'm starting to collect nickels now.


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## catsraven

Hmm I have three rolls of nickels. Im going to save them unless I desperately need them.


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## Ponce

My last buy was of 50 rolls of nickels ($5,000).........before that about 30 more.

I have been keeping all my loose change for the last 33 years and up till now have 5 five gallons plastic containers full of coins and dollar bills..... there should be another 20 bricks of nickels in there.

Why all my loose change???????? simple.....coins are made by the US Treasury and the fiat paper dollar by the Federal Reserve........which one do you think has better chance of surviving? 

Lots of reasons to keep your loose change.......tell you later.


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## james_black

Thanks you for the article UncleJoe. I need to get some "change" now.


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## UncleJoe

mdprepper said:


> Should I be saving the currently in use nickles (go to the bank and get rolls) or ones that are pre-19??


Sorry md, I missed your comment. 
Any nickels in circulation before the change is made, which looks like sometime in 2011. Once the new composition goes into circulation, the old ones will begin to disappear just like silver coins did in 1965. 
As others here have said, I have been buying nickels from the bank. When I go to the bank to cash a check, I will ask the teller for $10-$20 in rolled nickels instead of all paper bills.


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## Ponce

Very good Uncle Joe..............

"The coins of today in the future will be what the silver coins of yesterday are today"... Ponce


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## UncleJoe

Ponce said:


> My last buy was of 50 rolls of nickels ($5,000)


  

My bank has $2 rolls. 50 rolls would come to $100. What am I missing?

*md,* Something I should have mentioned; nickels stamped between 1942 and 1945 (war nickels) contain 35% silver so you may want to keep those separate from the rest.


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## Concerned_ Citizen

UncleJoe said:


> My bank has $2 rolls. 50 rolls would come to $100. What am I missing?


An 18 wheeler


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## Expeditioner

Ponce said:


> My last buy was of 50 rolls of nickels ($5,000).........before that about 30 more.
> 
> I have been keeping all my loose change for the last 33 years and up till now have 5 five gallons plastic containers full of coins and dollar bills..... there should be another 20 bricks of nickels in there.
> 
> Why all my loose change???????? simple.....coins are made by the US Treasury and the fiat paper dollar by the Federal Reserve........which one do you think has better chance of surviving?
> 
> Lots of reasons to keep your loose change.......tell you later.


Okay so what are all your reasons for keeping loose change?????


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## ironhat

Expeditioner said:


> Okay so what are all your reasons for keeping loose change?????


Yes, and what is the silver content of non-war nickels? Greater I would suppose.


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## UncleJoe

ironhat said:


> Yes, and what is the silver content of non-war nickels? Greater I would suppose.


0% silver 75% copper 25% nickel


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## ironhat

Thanks, UJ. That was a quick comeback. Where do I find the percentage of silver in current and older US coins?


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## UncleJoe

Here is American
Current Melt Value Of Coins - How Much Is Your Coin Worth?

Here is Canadian
Canadian Coin Melt Values - Coinflation.com

Have fun


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## Ponce

Hi, sorry it took me so long to come back........

About loose change, back in Germany from 1918 to 1923 the German government had 178 printing house printing the paper fiat but none the coins so that the coins and the OLD PAPER FIAT was able to retain its value.

This little old lady with a bathtub full of coins was able to live like a queen and with no worries at all.

Me? I started to save all my coins just for the hell of it and now I am glad that I did.........as we all know it cost the US government more to produce the penny and the nickel than the actual value of the coins themselves, thanks to the metal, and soon they will change all that with new coins.

In nickels alone I hold about 80 bricks plus about 20 or 30 more in loose change, for someone who collects coins they would have a ball checking all my coins :wave:


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## UncleJoe

Nickel is at a 21 month high. Stash 'em before they change the composition.

Nickel rallies near two-year high - The Globe and Mail


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## beericus

Hmm, this is very interesting. I also have been collecting coins, i never spend change when i buy something. I always pay in bills, and pocket the change, when i get home at night i empty all my change out in to a pasta sauce jar. Once its full i cap it, and store it. 

Why do i do this?? Well it started back ten years or so i guess. Id save up a gallon jar of them, then take it to the bank and deposit it into my money market, it would be about $500.00 at a time, nothing major just another form of saving. 

Then after 911, and all the other crud we don't need mentioned here, i figured if there was ever a run on banks or atm's, that me and Mrs Beericus could sit at home and not have to rush out to try to get money. Also, change is heavy and harder to steal.


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## TheUrbanSurvivalist

It will be many many years before "pre 2011 nickels" become rare or hard to find in change unless the price of precious metals really goes nuts. In 1982 they changed the composition of pennies. They went from 95% copper/5% nickel to 97.5% zinc/2.5% copper. The metal content of modern pennies is only worth about half a cent. It's the production costs that drive the price to the government above the face value of the penny. The metal content of the old copper pennies make them worth about 2.5x face value just in metal. 

Every now and then I'll get a brick of pennies ($25 worth) and go through them to look for really nice BU coins, copper coins, wheat pennies and other oddities. I'd say that about 25-30% of every box are old copper pennies. They're common but they're a pain to sort through unless you really like that sort of thing. Silver quarters and dimes are much more rare but they're easier to sort through because you can just "edge check" them. Silver coins are silver on the edge. The versions currently in circulation are brown on the edge. Just consider yourself lucky if you find one or two in an entire box of rolls. 

Putting aside a few boxes of nickels right now can't hurt. If nothing else just don't cash in your change until you've taken out all of the nickels. At least the new nickels are easily distinguishable from the old ones so you'll only be sorting through the last few year's of nickels if you decide to do some sorting in 10 years.


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## beericus

Gotcha, 

are you looking for any real gains though, or is this more of an interesting hobby?


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## Turtle

I am a restaurant manager, so every day I have to count the bar drawers and the cash drawers . . . so I've been sorting through the coins as I do it, keeping a bit of new change in one pocket that I swap out for old coins when I find them. I handle a lot of cash, so it gives me a good chance to sort through them, and I don't have to buy huge bricks from the bank to do it. More of a passive method, I suppose. I've probably found about ten bucks worth of silver dimes, about three bucks worth of silver pennies, and probably about ten bucks worth of silver nickels. Not bad for just carrying some extra change around for the last year or so!


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## UncleJoe

A bill to authorize research and development of new metal composition of coins was passed by the House and Senate and signed into law on Dec. 14, 2010.
The composition is now sure to change but no timeline is given.

Coin Modernization, Oversight, and Continuity Act of 2010 - Public Law 111-302 | Coin News

H.R. 6162 [111th]: Coin Modernization, Oversight, and Continuity Act of 2010 (GovTrack.us)


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## nj_m715

beericus said:


> Gotcha,
> 
> are you looking for any real gains though, or is this more of an interesting hobby?


I don't know. Ask anyone who is old enough to have changed a couple hundred dollars into dimes in 1963. I bet their hobby paid off. If the dollar crashes, is revalued overnight or the Euro or Yen becomes the world currency nickels have real value compared to paper. I keep a little green in my pocket and I keep a little more in nickels and pre 82 pennies in the safe. If I were to keep green in my safe, I'd rather have Canadian green at this point.


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## IrritatedWithUS

nj_m715 said:


> I don't know. Ask anyone who is old enough to have changed a couple hundred dollars into dimes in 1963. I bet their hobby paid off. If the dollar crashes, is revalued overnight or the Euro or Yen becomes the world currency nickels have real value compared to paper. I keep a little green in my pocket and I keep a little more in nickels and pre 82 pennies in the safe. If I were to keep green in my safe, I'd rather have Canadian green at this point.


I inherited literally ROLLS and ROLLS of dimes from 1963 and nickels from the 60's as well has dozens of $2 bills from 1956 and earlier last year And of course dozens of silver dollars and Franklin halves...

Just checked the silver prices and as of the 13th of January the price per ounce of silver is $28.80


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## wallstwench

*Buyer of Boxes of Nickels*

Every time I go to the bank I get a box of nickels. The metal content is worth .0667. It's the only losing trade the Fed can't get out of and stick to the Americans. Only problem is they are HEEEEEAAAAAVY. I tried carrying two boxes home one day and I was in pain the next day.


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## 778008

nj_m715 said:


> I don't know. Ask anyone who is old enough to have changed a couple hundred dollars into dimes in 1963. I bet their hobby paid off. If the dollar crashes, is revalued overnight or the Euro or Yen becomes the world currency nickels have real value compared to paper. I keep a little green in my pocket and I keep a little more in nickels and pre 82 pennies in the safe. If I were to keep green in my safe, I'd rather have Canadian green at this point.


YEs, I was very young but I remember first just taking the older silver coins like Mercury dimes and the war nickels. Wheat pennies were also collected. But as 1964 came around all the silver coins were kept. There after, not much was found except when I worked as a teller in the early 1970s, I was able to get some dimes and quarters. The nickels are great since I decided to go though some, the first roll had a silver and buffalo that led me to look through even the machine wrapped. I have been lucky to find many older nickels and am going to put together a collector book for my grandson! Many dates out there in the rolls . As an aside, we got a 1944 penny in change just yesterday!


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## ZoomZoom

Question for y'all.

Using coinflation.com, I can get the meltdown prices for coins. Now, why pay that meltdown price as one could buy .999 pure bullion for that same price.

Is there a percentage or something that gives a guideline what market price should be for buying these coins?

E.g. A 1964 Kennedy half-dollar currently has a silver value on the site of $13.39. What would one expect to really get selling that coin?


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## nj_m715

One easy place to get real world selling price. Looks like about $13 or so. 
90 silver kennedy items - Get great deals on Coins Paper Money, Antiques items on eBay.com!


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## 778008

bczoom said:


> Question for y'all.
> 
> Using coinflation.com, I can get the meltdown prices for coins. Now, why pay that meltdown price as one could buy .999 pure bullion for that same price.
> 
> Is there a percentage or something that gives a guideline what market price should be for buying these coins?
> 
> E.g. A 1964 Kennedy half-dollar currently has a silver value on the site of $13.39. What would one expect to really get selling that coin?


THe place I buy from buys at a percentage under the current spot for any silver coin. They sell at the same percentage over spot. YES, they base the amt they will give you on the actual silver amt in a coin. Meltdown would defeat the purpose of the 'junk coins' potential use as well. These coins can be used as currency again. Back when they were minted the value of the coin basically was equal to it's purchasing power. An example is that a $20 gold piece could buy a good men's suit and that value amt still can today (yes, a good suit!!!) The thing with nickels is that the metal they are made of can do the same if the coins are taken out of circulation by not minting any more. People will save them for sure just like we did in the 60s with silver coins! Look what happened there! The thing with nickels now is there is no cost factor- you get a roll of nickels for $2.00 paper (that will have no value soon it seems) The nickels will always be worth at least 5 cents but could be worth more (just like the silver coins are now) if they are not minted anymore and the metal value exceeds a nickel! You would NOT have to melt down since the nickels as well could be either bought/sold like the silver coins are now OR used as a currency in the future since their metal content is constant and a known factor so value can be applied.

Hope this helps.


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## ZoomZoom

Thanks.



778008 said:


> THe place I buy from buys at a percentage under the current spot for any silver coin. They sell at the same percentage over spot.


Can you tell me what percent?

My story is that my MIL recently passed away. My FIL is going through her things and found a nice cache of coins and he wants to sell them. I want to make sure he's getting a decent deal on the sell.


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## MrSfstk8d

Um, buy them yourself, lol.


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## ZoomZoom

That's exactly what I plan to do but want to make sure I'm giving him fair value...


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## 778008

bczoom said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Can you tell me what percent?
> 
> My story is that my MIL recently passed away. My FIL is going through her things and found a nice cache of coins and he wants to sell them. I want to make sure he's getting a decent deal on the sell.


Well back in the fall from the local person I go to the percentage was 5%, now it's 3%(actually that's what it was the end of Feb). I guess to be fair he lowered the percentage somewhat since the price has risen so. Don't forget the overhead for a store etc. Don't forget that if your MIL sold it she would get the lesser than spot price. To me to be fair I would just do the spot, she gets a little more than selling to a stranger, you get it for less than buying from a stranger! That's what I would suggest if in your position. I would kind of just give her whatever Coinflation says or maybe a little less since it changes so quickly. They give you the value of the silver itself from what I understand at the current price. Talk to your MIL to see what she thinks is fair price for the silver content. I think you can change the price on Coinflation and put the number of coins. If they are only for the silver value that's the way to do it I think. If there is any numismatic value, that's another story. The coin pricing guides are outdated as soon as printed. Mine is for 2011 and the price for silver is only around 20/oz! So they aren't really a good pricing method unless you somehow account for the price of silver rising. I would think being a family member, this would be fair to both of you! Hope this helps. Silver changes quite a bit even over the course of a day and really is on any upswing.

I misread and thought you were going to be buying them. But the percentages are what were going price now. Sorry to misread. I, personnally would go locally. Where do you live?


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## Immolatus

bczoom said:


> My story is that my MIL recently passed away. My FIL is going through her things and found a nice cache of coins and he wants to sell them. I want to make sure he's getting a decent deal on the sell.


If you havent already done this, the answer is very simple.
Spot price.
My local store will give you spot price for any junk or silver rounds.
You should never accept less than spot price, unless you have no alternative.

As to the nickels, I have been looking into this. At first, I thought, what a great idea, and at least a cant lose investment.
I spoke to my local dealer, he deals in numismatic coins, but his real deal is silver/gold/platinum (they even mint their own rounds, they are according to the owner of 40 years one of the top 3 silver dealers in the country), he does not deal in copper coins for one reason.
It is illegal to melt down copper coins, as of 2006. Until this law is changed, which it could, a nickel will only be worth $.05.
Just theorizing here:
This law has no chance of changing until, and this is an obvious given according to Greshams Law, the composition is changed after all of the existing nickels are out of circulation. I thought I read somewhere (helpful, huh?) that its already in the budget to change the composition. Obviously they have to, you cant charge less than the raw materials are worth/cost.
You obviously cannot lose actual money in nickels, all that you can lose is the opportunity cost of your investment.
It has only been in the past year that hoarding silver quarters wouldve beaten the S&P since 1964. You wouldnt have had to pay any taxes on quarters, but think of the hassle of holding 40,000 quarters wouldve been over all that time? If you wouldve invested $10k in BRK, it would be worth $80 million today. Your 40k quarters are worth $312000.


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## nj_m715

Keep your old coins! They didn't cost you anything and their value is going up. If you are going to sell them, you should be able to get a little over spot if you wait for the right buyer. 90% U.S. Silver Coins 
Look over at the right side of the page. See the difference in the buy and sell price. As demand ramps up so does the premium over spot.

The 2006 melt law doesn't take away the value of the metal in the coin. It just prevents you from legally melting it down. Heck, people cook meth and smoke crack everyday and that's illegal too  Your old penny is still worth about .03$ in metal. If you hold $100 in nickels and the value of the USD goes down, as it's been doing for years, your money retains value. A $100 bill could become t.p. I guess it comes down to how much faith you have in the economy. 
How much would you have today if you invested in enron instead of brk? Hind sight is always 20/20. I think the market is like poker. It takes some skill, but you still might loose. I like to invest in sure things like paying down bills, solar panels, wood/waste oil heaters.


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## Immolatus

Hey, Im not saying dont do it, I have $200 worth of em already.
All Im saying is that there are opportunity costs of that money, and using silver coins as a guide, barely worth the trouble, and that only takes into account what has happened to silver in the last year. Without the huge runup in silver, pre 64 coins wouldve been a bad investment relative to the S&P.
You are correct about the law not taking away the value of the metal. But if you cant find someone willing to melt them at great legal risk, then they are only worth 5 cents. If the law changes after all the copper nickels are gone, and copper skyrockets, then its worth the energy and money. If that doesnt happen (the law changing, because if the price goes up enough, there will be people willing to take the risk) in your lifetime or at lest relatively soon, then it isnt worth it.
That said, if the SHTF, then all bets are off and the copper would be worth a fortune and to hell with the law.
Its obviously worht saving the nickels you have and accumulate as change, but I dont think its worth it to actually 'invest' in them. Hmm. I guess since I am here on these forums, I guess it actually would be...


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## nj_m715

Immolatus said:


> That said, if the SHTF, then all bets are off and the copper would be worth a fortune and to hell with the law.


That says it all, especially when you factor in stuff like this
http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f26/what-dollar-really-worth-6158/#post64094

I can weld, but I never got into melting. It doesn't look too hard.
melting metal in a home foundry, backyard metalcasting, metal casting


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## Immolatus

You are completely correct.
I am having trouble separating my traditional investors mind, and my Econ schooling, with my relatively new SHTF mind. Only within the last year or so have I really began to believe that our country is in real trouble.
When I listen to my silver guy, I gotta remember that hes a businessman, and not worried about SHTF, cause hes in the best position possible already, sitting on tons of silver and gold.
Ultimately, my reason for hoarding nickels is the same as my reason for buying silver.

Thank you.
Its the reason I am on this forum.
A true ("What an alcoholic would call") "moment of clarity".

Hrm. All of that said, I would think that silver is the better investment, just taking sheer weight into account, and the fact that they will assumedly move in tandem. 'Fact' and 'assumedly' should not be in the same sentence.

Copper may actually have more value in a complete societal breakdown, because it has more uses to the average person than silver, no?
But in a collapse of the dollar, which may or may not bring a total societal collapse, silver is better.


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## adaptivesurvivordotcom

Would you guys recommend melting the metal down and just storing ingots, or is that a bad idea based on the fact that the coins could theoretically be worth more at face value again than the metals spot price? I would like to just melt them down, A) because its cool to smelt stuff, and B) because it allows me to stack ingots for easier storage, but I'm afraid that is the wrong answer. What do you guys think?


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## dc300a

Dont melt the coins!

Coins are minted by a trusted source and by virtue of that, people will know exactly what their composition is. If you melt down the coins into ingots, a stranger will have no way of knowing how pure your production is or if you are trying to scam him, etc.

Face coins have known values, known compositions, and they are more portable than ingots.... DONT melt them!


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## dc300a

On a side note... Smelting is Fun :2thumb:

I just would not do it to my coins.


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## 778008

Immolatus said:


> If you havent already done this, the answer is very simple.
> Spot price.
> My local store will give you spot price for any junk or silver rounds.
> You should never accept less than spot price, unless you have no alternative.
> 
> As to the nickels, I have been looking into this. At first, I thought, what a great idea, and at least a cant lose investment.
> I spoke to my local dealer, he deals in numismatic coins, but his real deal is silver/gold/platinum (they even mint their own rounds, they are according to the owner of 40 years one of the top 3 silver dealers in the country), he does not deal in copper coins for one reason.
> It is illegal to melt down copper coins, as of 2006. Until this law is changed, which it could, a nickel will only be worth $.05.
> Just theorizing here:
> This law has no chance of changing until, and this is an obvious given according to Greshams Law, the composition is changed after all of the existing nickels are out of circulation. I thought I read somewhere (helpful, huh?) that its already in the budget to change the composition. Obviously they have to, you cant charge less than the raw materials are worth/cost.
> You obviously cannot lose actual money in nickels, all that you can lose is the opportunity cost of your investment.
> It has only been in the past year that hoarding silver quarters wouldve beaten the S&P since 1964. You wouldnt have had to pay any taxes on quarters, but think of the hassle of holding 40,000 quarters wouldve been over all that time? If you wouldve invested $10k in BRK, it would be worth $80 million today. Your 40k quarters are worth $312000.


Yes, and the reason to keep nickels is to have actual real money that is easily recognized if the dollars collapses. They will be right up there with the silver pre 1965 coins at a lesser value! They are real money and no premium at least not yet. You never lose money! Of course you aren't getting interest, but really eveyone should have a little 'cash' in their possession and nickels are real money!


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## 778008

Immolatus said:


> If you havent already done this, the answer is very simple.
> Spot price.
> My local store will give you spot price for any junk or silver rounds.
> You should never accept less than spot price, unless you have no alternative.
> 
> As to the nickels, I have been looking into this. At first, I thought, what a great idea, and at least a cant lose investment.
> I spoke to my local dealer, he deals in numismatic coins, but his real deal is silver/gold/platinum (they even mint their own rounds, they are according to the owner of 40 years one of the top 3 silver dealers in the country), he does not deal in copper coins for one reason.
> It is illegal to melt down copper coins, as of 2006. Until this law is changed, which it could, a nickel will only be worth $.05.
> Just theorizing here:
> This law has no chance of changing until, and this is an obvious given according to Greshams Law, the composition is changed after all of the existing nickels are out of circulation. I thought I read somewhere (helpful, huh?) that its already in the budget to change the composition. Obviously they have to, you cant charge less than the raw materials are worth/cost.
> You obviously cannot lose actual money in nickels, all that you can lose is the opportunity cost of your investment.
> It has only been in the past year that hoarding silver quarters wouldve beaten the S&P since 1964. You wouldnt have had to pay any taxes on quarters, but think of the hassle of holding 40,000 quarters wouldve been over all that time? If you wouldve invested $10k in BRK, it would be worth $80 million today. Your 40k quarters are worth $312000.





dc300a said:


> Dont melt the coins!
> 
> Coins are minted by a trusted source and by virtue of that, people will know exactly what their composition is. If you melt down the coins into ingots, a stranger will have no way of knowing how pure your production is or if you are trying to scam him, etc.
> 
> Face coins have known values, known compositions, and they are more portable than ingots.... DONT melt them!


Exactly, you will keep the nickels. If things go bad, you have real money along with silver pre 1965 coins! Everyone knows what they are and what they're made of (those that don't will learn very fast) They are not meant to be melted, just kept for a rainy day!


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## 778008

nj_m715 said:


> Keep your old coins! They didn't cost you anything and their value is going up. If you are going to sell them, you should be able to get a little over spot if you wait for the right buyer. 90% U.S. Silver Coins
> Look over at the right side of the page. See the difference in the buy and sell price. As demand ramps up so does the premium over spot.
> 
> The 2006 melt law doesn't take away the value of the metal in the coin. It just prevents you from legally melting it down. Heck, people cook meth and smoke crack everyday and that's illegal too  Your old penny is still worth about .03$ in metal. If you hold $100 in nickels and the value of the USD goes down, as it's been doing for years, your money retains value. A $100 bill could become t.p. I guess it comes down to how much faith you have in the economy.
> How much would you have today if you invested in enron instead of brk? Hind sight is always 20/20. I think the market is like poker. It takes some skill, but you still might loose. I like to invest in sure things like paying down bills, solar panels, wood/waste oil heaters.


YES, I agree.


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## ZoomZoom

EDIT. I must have missed a page of posts. I see I'm just piling on. Can't delete my post...

Myself, I would keep them as coins. They're value and silver content can easily be known when you go to sell them. Melted down, you'll probably end up paying for testing so the buyer knows exactly what they're getting.


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## Immolatus

dc300a said:


> Dont melt the coins!
> 
> Coins are minted by a trusted source and by virtue of that, people will know exactly what their composition is. If you melt down the coins into ingots, a stranger will have no way of knowing how pure your production is or if you are trying to scam him, etc.
> 
> Face coins have known values, known compositions, and they are more portable than ingots.... DONT melt them!


Yes, you do not melt the coins.

How much will you give me for a few kilos of shiny lumpy metal, that could be anything. I say its fine silver. What say you?


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## Immolatus

*Its almost over...*

*Mint awards firm contract to research alternative coinage metals*

So in 09, it cost .07 to make a nickel, and now its .09, and theyre still doing it?
:nuts:


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## UncleJoe

Just like almost anything else in DC it takes 15 committees and several years of banter to get something done.


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## Immolatus

Yeah, this shouldve taken about 10 minutes of discussion, and maybe a few days to sort out, and shouldve been done years ago. Imagine if this had happened at your job. Heads wouldve rolled.

According to the mint, we produced almost 600 million nickels from Jan to July of this year, at a loss (according to my last post) of .04 each.

Ugh.

So the solution is to make them out of junk metal? Seems the only way to go. The last coin still made out of something valuable will soon be gone. and we can all say we were around to see it!
Whoo hoo?


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## Ponce

Like I posted before.........I hold between $9,000 and $11,000 in nickels (not sure how much) but the main thing is.........any coin will be worth more than a paper green back, save your loose change as I have been doing for the past 27 years and rewarded in the future you will be.


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## 778008

Yes I agree 100 percent. All and any coin will have more value than paper!! Nickels and pre 1982 pennies (of course pre 1965 dimes quarters halves silver dollars) have greater than face intrinsic value but all coins better than paper!


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## BillS

Ponce said:


> Like I posted before.........I hold between $9,000 and $11,000 in nickels (not sure how much) but the main thing is.........any coin will be worth more than a paper green back, save your loose change as I have been doing for the past 27 years and rewarded in the future you will be.


Your money is losing value as the dollar loses value. I think you'd be better off selling your coins and buying gold coins or junk silver coins.


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## ImNotCrazyRU

Any United States dime, quarter, half dollar or dollar that is dated 1964 or earlier is made of 90% silver. In the dime series, all coins dated 1965 or later are clad coins and contain no silver at all


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## Immolatus

BillS said:


> Your money is losing value as the dollar loses value. I think you'd be better off selling your coins and buying gold coins or junk silver coins.


Yes, but along the same lines, wouldnt the copper in the nickles be more likely to at least hold its value if not increase?


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## 778008

I agree with Nickels holing their value. Nickels at least are just a trade of money. There is no premium. I feel any coin actually has at least their intrinsic metal value therefore Worth more than Any paper money. Nickels and 1982 an prior pennies are worth in metal more than face already. Yes I know no melting but worth keeping for when debased. I was very young in the mid 1960s but we kept all silver coins. Yes a long time to keep but a real value holing item. Yes of course the silver coins are a great holder of value now but are so much over face in a moving market. Nickels are face anf you can not lose anything. So YES save them and all change! In many currency devaluations coins have retained their value while paper has been replaced


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## The_Blob

historically the value of gold to silver was 17:1, if that were true today silver would be $97 instead of $32.50

as of 10am this morning gold was at $1657.85 & silver was at $32.50 making it 51:1 for gold:silver

I believe this is called the 'silver ratio', so IMHO anybody that has gold would be best served converting (most of) it to silver right now & wait for either the price of gold to go down (less likely) and/or the price of silver to go up (more likely). I actually think the price of both will go up, but silver's gains will outstrip gold's.

I think I shall go follow my own advice right now... tootles


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## Meerkat

We use to save only dimes and quarters, and that really comes in handy sometimes,now we save nickles in a different place.


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## BillS

Immolatus said:


> Yes, but along the same lines, wouldnt the copper in the nickles be more likely to at least hold its value if not increase?


I'm sure it'll have some value as the dollar declines. Despite all the value that the dollar has lost, the melt value of a nickel is still the same as its face value. It seems to me that it won't hold its value as well as silver or gold. A 1946 nickel has a melt value of $.05 but a 1946 dime has a melt value of about $2.25. It takes about 45 nickels to equal the value of one 90% silver dime. To me, nickels are impractical when it comes to using as a form of barter. Who would want to accept 1000 nickels for the equivalent of a $50 purchase? It would be a lot easier to count out 23 silver dimes.


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## BillS

The_Blob said:


> historically the value of gold to silver was 17:1, if that were true today silver would be $97 instead of $32.50
> 
> as of 10am this morning gold was at $1657.85 & silver was at $32.50 making it 51:1 for gold:silver
> 
> I believe this is called the 'silver ratio', so IMHO anybody that has gold would be best served converting (most of) it to silver right now & wait for either the price of gold to go down (less likely) and/or the price of silver to go up (more likely). I actually think the price of both will go up, but silver's gains will outstrip gold's.
> 
> I think I shall go follow my own advice right now... tootles


It's an interesting question. Central banks around the world have been buying gold and not silver. I think the current price ratio between gold and silver could remain the same. It could even move more in favor of gold. Still, PMs are a good investment. I own both gold and silver.


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## TheAnt

The_Blob said:


> historically the value of gold to silver was 17:1, if that were true today silver would be $97 instead of $32.50
> 
> as of 10am this morning gold was at $1657.85 & silver was at $32.50 making it 51:1 for gold:silver
> 
> I believe this is called the 'silver ratio', so IMHO anybody that has gold would be best served converting (most of) it to silver right now & wait for either the price of gold to go down (less likely) and/or the price of silver to go up (more likely). I actually think the price of both will go up, but silver's gains will outstrip gold's.
> 
> I think I shall go follow my own advice right now... tootles


I have thought (and acted) on the same premise. BillS makes a good point as well. One thing about silver is that it is a much smaller market and is therefore much more volitile (subject to larger upswings and downswings) so you may see it drop a large % then go up a large %.

Often folks "swap" gold for silver and silver for gold when the ratio is in favor of one or the other. In doing so you can increase your holdings without actually spending any money. You do have to have significant holdings for this to work because you will pay some kind of premium during said swaps.

There are two main reasons I purchase silver instead of gold besides the ratio you mention:

1) Gold costs too much for me to purchase it. I would have more eggs in one basket. If I had 100k in the bank I would definitely purchase some gold.. but alas I dont have even 10k in the bank.

2) Silver is in smaller denominations and would be easier to use for trade. You cant walk up to someone with a 1/10 gold coin and offer them 1/4 of that coin to buy a chicken or goat. Without them knowing (or assuming) you have more. Its much easier to have one 1oz coin and offer them that for the goat.

Gold is a good medium for storing vast wealth... silver is good for storing smaller amounts of wealth for everyday trade. JMO


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## Immolatus

Since silver is a smaller market, its also more easily subjected to market manipulation, see the last round of margin increases and its effect on the price.

Now a nickel is only worth face, but a few months ago it was worth almost $.07.
Bill is definitely correct on a nickel being impractical as barter money, you might have to think really long term (like holding silver dimes/quarters since the 60's) for the price of copper to rise enough to make it worth it.


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## TheAnt

Immolatus said:


> Since silver is a smaller market, its also more easily subjected to market manipulation, see the last round of margin increases and its effect on the price.


This is true but makes no difference in SHTF. The fact also remains that silver (as well as gold) is and always will be real money. As with any investment there is the possibility of losing if you buy/sell at the wrong time. However if you are sitting on piles of silver coins after SHTF you are better off than anyone sitting on piles of pennies/nickles/dimes/dollars etc (unless they are silver).


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## Immolatus

Absolutely.
Was just pointing it out for pre SHTF.


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## cajunmeadows

Just started.Boy it is alot easier and cheaper than trying to get gold r silver!


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## BlueShoe

If someone presented a 1 oz silver to me, I'd assume they have a lot more of them since they were easy to acquire. If someone offered me a portion of gold coin, I'd assume they might have a couple more portions of it somewhere. But I wouldn't assume they have a bunch of those coins.

Didn't the term "bit" in 2 bits, 4 bits, 6 bits a Dollar come from people sectioning what were called PIECES OF EIGHT coins into 8 factions/bits? Eight bits making up a whole unit--12.5 cents per bit.

Sectioning larger coins was the common method.


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## whome

Yes, yes I am saving my nickles...I have advised others to do so...they look at me like I'm crazy. Oh, well.


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## BillS

I don't think it make much sense to save nickels. A 1946 nickel is now worth its melt value after 65 years. A 1946 dime is worth $2.52 today. I'm sure those nickels will appreciate in value at a much slower rate than silver since they're based on industrial metals and not metals that are money. Throughout history silver has been used as money. It was minted into coins as a way to conveniently verify the value of the silver being used in the transaction. Silver IS money. Nickel coins are only money if people think they have value. Save your money. Buy junk silver coins. I bought some for only 6% over the spot price. That included shipping, insurance, and the credit card surcharge.

90% SILVER Coins | Buy Mercury Dimes Online | $1 Face

Current Melt Value Of Coins - How Much Is Your Coin Worth?

Junk silver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Besides that, who would want to accept nickels in a barter situation? Would I rather accept 300 nickels in exchange for food? Or 6 silver dimes? I can imagine that junk silver coins will become an alternative currency during hyperinflation. I can also imagine people not wanting to deal with large amounts of pennies or nickels.


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## 778008

Yes a nickel is just that but no cost (if you are keeping cash around) to get. Silver junk is alo a great item but costs over face. We did save our coins back in the 60s! As well as those pre 1982 pennies. I can get junk silver coins including halves for 3 percent over spot at my local shop. No postage delivery man and on the spot.


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## UncleJoe

*Bills,*

Yes, silver is certainly worthy of investment. But as 778008 said, you pay a premium for it. Copper and nickel are down right now so the spread between face value and metal value has decreased. 
The composition of the nickel will change, probably next year. When it does the old ones will begin to disappear just as silver coins did in 1965. They will then become collectible. I still agree with the original article. I pick up $10-$20 in rolled nickels whenever I go to the bank. They will always keep their face value and while they might not provide a great investment for me, my kids will benefit from it just as I benefit from the silver coins my folks held.

JMHO and worth every nickel you paid for it.


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## VUnder

adaptivesurvivordotcom said:


> Would you guys recommend melting the metal down and just storing ingots, or is that a bad idea based on the fact that the coins could theoretically be worth more at face value again than the metals spot price? I would like to just melt them down, A) because its cool to smelt stuff, and B) because it allows me to stack ingots for easier storage, but I'm afraid that is the wrong answer. What do you guys think?


No, the point of saving this money is to have money to trade with and buy with. Money is a great convenience in our society. Think of going to town to buy some clothes and having to lug a cage with three chickens and two rabbits in it to town and then tote the empty cage back home, along with the clothes. Money makes things easier. This makes gold a way to retain your wealth, but it will be hard to trade with a 1500.00 coin in the future. The lowly nickel is the next best option. It is worth more than its face value.


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## 778008

Yes and every so often there is a silver or buffalo nickel in the rolls! If there is any cash you keep on hand make some nickels and really all coins. Just get the rolls of nickels and put all other coins in a coffee can (if you can even find a metal one. Most brands are cardboard or plastic)


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## SMOKEYMOUNTAIN

VUnder said:


> No, the point of saving this money is to have money to trade with and buy with. Money is a great convenience in our society. Think of going to town to buy some clothes and having to lug a cage with three chickens and two rabbits in it to town and then tote the empty cage back home, along with the clothes. Money makes things easier. This makes gold a way to retain your wealth, but it will be hard to trade with a 1500.00 coin in the future. The lowly nickel is the next best option. It is worth more than its face value.


Agreed. If the S ever HTF, the price of gold and silver will SKYROCKET. That means even junk silver coins will be a store of substantial wealth not to be used in day to day transactions but to be held and closely guarded. Moreover, if you are openly trading in a market with gold and silver, you will become a mark and be seen as a target to be robbed or worse.

Consequentially, semi-precious metals like copper and nickel will replace dollar bills as day to day barter/exchange currency. Even a 5 year old can recognize an American nickel. Everybody knows it weighs 5 grams and is 75% copper/25% nickel.

Want to buy one cigarette? Give me one or two nickels. Need a lift to the next town or market? Give me 5 nickels. Want to buy a gallon of milk and a loaf of bread? Give me a roll of nickels. Walking around with 2 or 3 rolls of nickels is not weight or space prohibitive for the average person. More importantly, you will stay under the radar and not be seen as a mark.


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## BillM

*I'm pretty sure*

I am pretty sure it is illegal to deface US coins. You start melting them down and the Secrete Service will have a beef with you !


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## nj_m715

Why melt it? It has value for the metal it's made from right now and it's easy to identify.


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## BlueShoe

SMOKEYMOUNTAIN said:


> Agreed. If the S ever HTF, the price of gold and silver will SKYROCKET. That means even junk silver coins will be a store of substantial wealth not to be used in day to day transactions but to be held and closely guarded. Moreover, if you are openly trading in a market with gold and silver, you will become a mark and be seen as a target to be robbed or worse.


Some say the PMs will only spike temporarily and then drop in value after the fiat currencies are gone. I'd plan that they will ultimately drop in the value based in the terms that we speak of today.


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## HozayBuck

*Nope..no "nickles" no dimes or penny's... BUT !! I do have thousands and thousands of round of ammo...is that ok? will I survive ? can't eat ammo... OH..yea i have food too...no coins tho*


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## SMOKEYMOUNTAIN

HozayBuck said:


> *Nope..no "nickles" no dimes or penny's... BUT !! I do have thousands and thousands of round of ammo...is that ok? will I survive ? can't eat ammo... OH..yea i have food too...no coins tho*


Yeah, I have like 7k+ rounds of .22 lr, 2.8k .40 cal S&W, 100 shells of 00 buck and 100 shells of 1 oz lead slugs.

Although primarily for self-defense and hunting, I stack ammo for investment value and barter in mind as well.

But in reality, I would really hesitate to trade someone food for bullets. They could just load up, shoot you, and take it all. Bartering with ammo is a last, desperate resort with no other alternatives. In that case, I would rather just kill the other person and take what I need to survive.


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## BlueShoe

I have some nickles because they're nickle. I only have $50 or so of them. I mean to buy more so when they change the content to some sort of junk metal in the near future.... They're kind of in my way though.


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## prairie

Kyle Bass thinks it's a good idea to have a few nickels on hand.


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## SageAdvicefarmgirl

We've been saving all our change for ages...every day it goes into a jar or a can or something. So I expect we have a few nickles buried around here somewhere. Its our only true savings account!:sssh:


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## BillS

SageAdvicefarmgirl said:


> We've been saving all our change for ages...every day it goes into a jar or a can or something. So I expect we have a few nickles buried around here somewhere. Its our only true savings account!:sssh:


I don't think it makes sense to save change. The dollar depreciates due to inflation. You'd be much better off if you cashed in your change and bought junk silver coins.


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## UncleJoe

I would think it depends on how far the dollar depreciates. For example; let's say inflation gets totally out of control. Now the *Federal Reserve* decides to revalue the greenback by dropping a "0" or two from the denomination. $100 becomes $10. With a bucket full of change, you're instantly $90 richer. I'm not sure silver could match that kind of return for the investment. Could it happen like that? :dunno: But I wouldn't put anything past the* Federal Reserve*.


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## Immolatus

I'll agree with Bill, maybe save all the nickles and pre 82 pennies, the rest is junk, and would be better served spent on something useful.


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## VUnder

Do not become a target. There was a large plantation around here before the Civil War. Nine older sons went to war, and the old men, women, and children stayed on the farm. I never heard about what happened to these people. I know they were there, part of the farm is still there. But, the people aren't there, or the descendants, rather. I knew that the locals had barn dances there on up in the 1960's. Finally, I found an old fella that didn't live here, but was raised here, and knew the story.

The Union soldiers got in that plantation. They tortured, raped, and killed all those people trying to find out where the gold was hidden. I have respect for them, because nobody talked. In the fifties, a man here was pushing a gang cutting trees. A couple of them went looking for some worms to fish with in the creek later that day. They dug up a five gallon churn of gold coins. I will leave it at that. But this tells you what can happen if you are a target and there is no law around. 

The soldiers burned the house on the way out. The barns and things are still there. The locals held barn dances there for over a century in remembrance.


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## UncleJoe

*Legislation Seeks Steel Cents and Nickels*

Two bills were introduced in the House of Representatives on December 15, 2011 which seek to immediately alter the metallic composition of the one cent and five cent coins. Although the text of the bills is not yet available, statements released by Rep. Steve Stivers who introduced the bills H.R. 3693 and H.R. 3694 indicate that the legislation would require the coins to be made from steel.

"This legislation is a common-sense solution to decrease the cost of minting pennies and nickels," said Stivers. "Not only will it cost less, but steel is an American resource that we have and can manufacture right here in our backyard."

Since 2006, the cost to manufacture and produce both the cent and nickel have exceeded their face values. Based on the most recent information from the US Mint's 2010 annual report, the costs were 1.79 cents for each cent and 9.22 cents for each nickel. The total losses related to producing cents and nickels from 2006 to 2010 are $243.1 million.

Under existing law, the Secretary of the Treasury may prescribe a composition of copper and zinc for the one cent coin. Currently, the coins are struck in copper plated zinc with a net composition of 97.5% zinc and 2.5% copper. The five cent coin is currently required under law to consist of an alloy of 75% copper and 25% nickel.

The bills introduced by Stivers would require both coins to be made from steel, with the penny coated in copper. According to Stivers, the appearance of the coins would not change, just the materials to make them...

... At the end of 2010, a bill was passed and signed into law which provided the Secretary of the Treasury with the authority to conduct research and development activities related to coinage materials. At the end of a two year period, a report is due to Congress, which may make suggestions for alternative coinage materials. The first report is required before December 14, 2012. Any actual changes in composition resulting from the report would need to be made through legislation passed by Congress.

The two bills introduced yesterday by Rep. Stivers have been referred to the House Committee on Financial Services. Each bill is cosponsored by two Ohio Representatives, the state from which Stivers also hails. Ohio is one of the three top steel producing states in the country.

Legislation Seeks Steel Cents and Nickels | Coin Update News


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## SMOKEYMOUNTAIN

Time for me to stop by the bank and pick up a few more $100 boxes of federal reserve nickels. 



UncleJoe said:


> Two bills were introduced in the House of Representatives on December 15, 2011 which seek to immediately alter the metallic composition of the one cent and five cent coins. Although the text of the bills is not yet available, statements released by Rep. Steve Stivers who introduced the bills H.R. 3693 and H.R. 3694 indicate that the legislation would require the coins to be made from steel.
> 
> "This legislation is a common-sense solution to decrease the cost of minting pennies and nickels," said Stivers. "Not only will it cost less, but steel is an American resource that we have and can manufacture right here in our backyard."
> 
> Since 2006, the cost to manufacture and produce both the cent and nickel have exceeded their face values. Based on the most recent information from the US Mint's 2010 annual report, the costs were 1.79 cents for each cent and 9.22 cents for each nickel. The total losses related to producing cents and nickels from 2006 to 2010 are $243.1 million.
> 
> Under existing law, the Secretary of the Treasury may prescribe a composition of copper and zinc for the one cent coin. Currently, the coins are struck in copper plated zinc with a net composition of 97.5% zinc and 2.5% copper. The five cent coin is currently required under law to consist of an alloy of 75% copper and 25% nickel.
> 
> The bills introduced by Stivers would require both coins to be made from steel, with the penny coated in copper. According to Stivers, the appearance of the coins would not change, just the materials to make them...
> 
> ... At the end of 2010, a bill was passed and signed into law which provided the Secretary of the Treasury with the authority to conduct research and development activities related to coinage materials. At the end of a two year period, a report is due to Congress, which may make suggestions for alternative coinage materials. The first report is required before December 14, 2012. Any actual changes in composition resulting from the report would need to be made through legislation passed by Congress.
> 
> The two bills introduced yesterday by Rep. Stivers have been referred to the House Committee on Financial Services. Each bill is cosponsored by two Ohio Representatives, the state from which Stivers also hails. Ohio is one of the three top steel producing states in the country.
> 
> Legislation Seeks Steel Cents and Nickels | Coin Update News


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## gitnready4it

Very good to know. Thanks for the post!:beercheer:


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## SVT80

Hello All.

I'm brand new to the site, and trying to wrap my head around this "nickel saving" idea. 

Let's say I owned 1000 nickels that are all dated in the year 2011. Let's assume these nickels have increased in value based on their copper/nickel makeup. How is it even possible to profit from this increase in value? Who would buy these nickels?

Best Regards,

SVT

FYI: It's possible I'm totally confused and have no idea what I am talking about.


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## Immolatus

For you to actually 'profit' from them, 2 things would have to happen:
1) The composition of the nickel would have to change, which is apparently in the works. Once this happens and they are made out of worthless zinc or whatever, the copper nickels will dissapear from circulation very quickly.
2) The law that prohibits the melting down of said copper coinage (nickels and pre 82 pennies) is repealed. Until then, you will be hard pressed to find someone to give you more than face value (i.e. the value of the metal) because noone wants to take the risk of melting them down.


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## nj_m715

The dollar in your pocket could end up only being worth the paper it's printed on or you could wake up to 50% devalued dollar one day. A dollar is magically worth only 50 cents. A nickel is now worth 1/2 too, but a nickel would still be worth it's weight in metal. It has value in scrap and value as money just like pre'65 coins. Nickels are the only cash left that has true value. (I know you could spend a week sorting pennies, but come on.)
Right now no one will pay you scrap value (and it's illegal) when you can get them at face value from a bank, but years from now, who knows? I bet I would have made out better if my grandparents gave me rolls of old dimes instead of bonds.

They don't need to be melted to have value. A gold ring doesn't need to be melted. It's still going to be XX grams of gold. Nickels could still be used for trading and it's easy to identify your "scrap metal" when it's in coin form.


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## SVT80

Immolatus said:


> For you to actually 'profit' from them, 2 things would have to happen:
> 1) The composition of the nickel would have to change, which is apparently in the works. Once this happens and they are made out of worthless zinc or whatever, the copper nickels will dissapear from circulation very quickly.
> 2) The law that prohibits the melting down of said copper coinage (nickels and pre 82 pennies) is repealed. Until then, you will be hard pressed to find someone to give you more than face value (i.e. the value of the metal) because noone wants to take the risk of melting them down.


I think I'm confused...when I first started reading about this, I thought just buy a bunch of nickels in the hopes that when they go out of circulation they would increase to say 5x's their value in the future (maybe)...then you could sell them off for a profit....I guess that's not a possibility.


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## Salekdarling

So, to a person new at collecting coins, what year pennies and nickels should I look for?

Also, I've been collecting wheat pennies. I'm surprised to see so many still around.


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## UncleJoe

SVT80 said:


> I think I'm confused...when I first started reading about this, I thought just buy a bunch of nickels in the hopes that when they go out of circulation they would increase to say 5x's their value in the future (maybe)...then you could sell them off for a profit....I guess that's not a possibility.


That's the idea. Once they start to disappear from circulation, collector value kicks in just like pre '65 dimes, quarters and half dollars.



Salekdarling said:


> So, to a person new at collecting coins, what year pennies and nickels should I look for?
> 
> Also, I've been collecting wheat pennies. I'm surprised to see so many still around.


Any nickels until the change is made. One thing to note; 1942-1945 "war nickels" contain 35% silver and have more value.
If you have the time you can sort through pennies. Pennies made before 1982 are 95% copper. After that, 95% zinc. Wheat pennies are easy to notice. I grab those but don't sort through looking for pre-'82. Just doesn't seem worth it to me.


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## Salekdarling

UncleJoe said:


> Any nickels until the change is made. One thing to note; 1942-1945 "war nickels" contain 35% silver and have more value.
> If you have the time you can sort through pennies. Pennies made before 1982 are 95% copper. After that, 95% zinc. Wheat pennies are easy to notice. I grab those but don't sort through looking for pre-'82. Just doesn't seem worth it to me.


Thanks for the quick and precise answer, Uncle Joe!


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## Woody

Salekdarling said:


> Also, I've been collecting wheat pennies. I'm surprised to see so many still around.


I've noticed a big surge in finding older change too. My thinking was that folks are hard pressed to pay bills these days and that old change purse or jar of coins that has been sitting around for years is now getting used.


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## SVT80

SVT80 said:


> I think I'm confused...when I first started reading about this, I thought just buy a bunch of nickels in the hopes that when they go out of circulation they would increase to say 5x's their value in the future (maybe)...then you could sell them off for a profit....I guess that's not a possibility.





UncleJoe said:


> That's the idea. Once they start to disappear from circulation, collector value kicks in just like pre '65 dimes, quarters and half dollars.


So how do you sell or cash-in the nickels if they significantly increase in value? How do you take advantage of that?


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## nj_m715

You can do it like this: "Hey Mister, I'll trade you 10 of my rare copper/nickel 5 cent pieces for 10 of your paper amero dollars."
or "I'll trade you a few old nickels for (insert item you need)."

It's pretty much like selling or trade anything of value the same way people do it today. Search collectable coins on ebay or c-list, you'll get the idea.

Read the first few pages of A World Made by Hand to see the value that the author put on a fish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation

It should help you get the picture why some guys would rather hold metal money instead of paper money.


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## SVT80

nj_m715 said:


> You can do it like this: "Hey Mister, I'll trade you 10 of my rare copper/nickel 5 cent pieces for 10 of your paper amero dollars."
> or "I'll trade you a few old nickels for (insert item you need)."
> 
> It's pretty much like selling or trade anything of value the same way people do it today. Search collectable coins on ebay or c-list, you'll get the idea.
> 
> Read the first few pages of A World Made by Hand to see the value that the author put on a fish.
> 
> Hyperinflation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> It should help you get the picture why some guys would rather hold metal money instead of paper money.


ah ok...so it's not as easy as, buy $1,000 worth of nickels now, watch it's value inflate by 5x's, then cash in for $5,000.

It's more of a longer-term strategy for trading if the dollar collapses/devaluation of the dollar by the gov't.


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## SVT80

So it's more of a long-term strategy for trade/greater purchasing power than it is a bank cash-in plan for more dollars.


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## nj_m715

It is for me, but in the mean time if you need cash, you have it. Let's say I put cash into something I think will increase in value, like a silver coin or a baseball card for example. Now my engine blows in my car, my heater takes a dump etc. I need to turn my baseball card into cash to spend. The nickels/copper pennies are a hedge and cash. Two for one. 

If you really think copper and nickel will go up 5x in a few years and you want to invest. Then just go to the scrap yard and buy some copper. You can sell it for cash anytime you want to. If the value of copper goes down (it did last years) you could end up on the wrong end of the deal. If copper goes to 10 cents a pound a nickel is still 5 cents. That's the dual role.


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## SVT80

Isn't part of what makes all those coins worth more is that they are rare? Or does that make only a negligible difference since most of it's value comes from what it is made of?


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## nj_m715

Yes, no and both. It depends on the coin. I'm not into it for rare. I'd have no idea where to start and I don't want to get burned by paying $50 for a $10 coin. I have a little bit of junk silver. Junk means it has no rare collector value.
You can look up the scrap value of any metal coin online. This page shows silver coins, but you can go to the home page for gold or standard coins. You can see a 1960 quarter is worth $5.50 but a modern quarter is worth 5 cents in scrap.

Silver Coin Melt Values - Coinflation (Live Prices)


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## Woody

Consider it like pre 1964 silver US coinage. On the chance that our current nickels go the same way, they could be worth more than 5 cents someday. We used to trade or spend the silver coins for face value but now you can trade or sell them for their metal value without melting them. I saved a bunch of silver coins when I was but a young lad and they have increased in value as the value of the dollar decreases. Same principle.


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## nj_m715

Ok, here's a good example. This coin has value 3 different ways.

1934-D PEACE $ MS64+ PCGS | eBay

This guy wants $800 for a silver dollar as a collector item. It's also worth $23.50 in scrap silver value and finally it's still a US coin so it has a $1 face value. So, if the price of silver, copper etc go to the moon, the value of your coin goes up. If the cost of metals go to zero, you still have the face value of the coin.


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## jjwilson72000

I'm sold, let me make sure I got this correct.
Pre 1982 pennies
Pre 1965 dimes, quarters, half-dollars and coin dollars.
All nickels until they change the composition.
Anything rare (wheat pennies,buffalo nickels, etc.)
That correct?


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## nj_m715

That's the basics. When in doubt just "rock a wiki" or check coinflation.
There are some exceptions. 1/2 dollars were 40% silver until '70. There's some 40% Ike's and other proof coin but they are pretty rare. You probably won't see them in your pocket change. 

I have gone through boxes of coins from the bank with my little boy. We get an empty collector folder from the coin store then fill the folder and check for silver at the same time. It's good, cheap, rainy day family fun. I had the best luck finding silver with boxes of nickels or dimes. The edges of the silver nickels look the same as silver nickels so they don't get weeded out as easy. Look at the dates or the mint letter stamped on the back. The edges of the dimes are very thin so silver dimes slip through. I found very few quarters and only 1 half dollar. I know some guys had great luck with halves, but I didn't. You can find "treasure hunting" vids on youtube of guys finding several halves in one box. 

I see you're new here, so I'll offer my 2 cents for what it's worth, ignore it if you want. I wouldn't worry about spending money on silver until you have built up a supply of food, water, heat, fuel etc. first. The idea of pm's is to store your wealth. One day you may need to trade silver for food, water or energy. So you might as well just have the food in the first place. I don't see anything wrong with going through a box of coins on a cold Sunday night as you watch tv. Almost the whole box will go back to the bank, so it's basically a free hobby. I'd start with vac sealed rice, beans, pasta and a good water filter long before I worry about pm's.


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## jjwilson72000

I am focusing on the basics but I have a family member who has quite alot of coins that have never been gone through, so I am hopeful of finding a stash of "junk silver" in there.


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## nj_m715

I hope you tell grandma' what you're doing


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## SMOKEYMOUNTAIN

The only drawbacks that I can see in investing in nickels and pre-82 pennies is the sheer bulk/weight of storage, say if you live in an apartment and frequently move, and the lost opportunity cost of that money invested into said coinage.


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## AlabamaGal

I'm seeing more old coins lately, too. I think the coin jugs are being emptied... but then again I notice more lately than I used to. Anyway, I sort my coins and roll up the non-keepers. When I have a small pile, I take them to the bank and either put them in my savings account or use them for a special treat. (I bought my Nutrimill and my Excalibur that way.) The change adds up pretty fast but you hardly notice the money leaving.



jjwilson72000 said:


> I'm sold, let me make sure I got this correct.
> Pre 1982 pennies
> Pre 1965 dimes, quarters, half-dollars and coin dollars.
> All nickels until they change the composition.
> Anything rare (wheat pennies,buffalo nickels, etc.)
> That correct?


Almost. The half dollars and dollars are tougher.

I keep an index card by my coin jug for easy of memory. Granted, some of these are worth a whole lot more than their metal content.

90% silver:
1837-1891 seated liberty dollar
1873-1885 trade dollar
1878-1921 morgan dollar
1921-1935 peace dollar
1892-1964 half dollar
1916-1964 quarter
1892-1964 dime

40% silver:
1965-1969 half dollar

35% silver:
1942-1945 nickel

copper:
1793-1857 penny - 100% copper
1857-1864 penny - 88% copper
1864-1982 penny - 95% copper
1938-1943 nickel - 75% copper
1946-2012 nickel - 75% copper


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## UncleJoe

SMOKEYMOUNTAIN said:


> The only drawbacks that I can see in investing in nickels and pre-82 pennies is the sheer bulk/weight of storage, say if you live in an apartment and frequently move, and the lost opportunity cost of that money invested into said coinage.


$188.00 in ($2.00) rolled nickels fit nice and snug in a 30cal. ammo can  and the handle makes it easy to carry.


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## 778008

Yes the ammo can works well! We all should save the nickels! I haven't been here in a while but received an update email.


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## Salekdarling

AlabamaGal said:


> I'm seeing more old coins lately, too. I think the coin jugs are being emptied... but then again I notice more lately than I used to. Anyway, I sort my coins and roll up the non-keepers. When I have a small pile, I take them to the bank and either put them in my savings account or use them for a special treat. (I bought my Nutrimill and my Excalibur that way.) The change adds up pretty fast but you hardly notice the money leaving.
> 
> Almost. The half dollars and dollars are tougher.
> 
> I keep an index card by my coin jug for easy of memory. Granted, some of these are worth a whole lot more than their metal content.
> 
> 90% silver:
> 1837-1891 seated liberty dollar
> 1873-1885 trade dollar
> 1878-1921 morgan dollar
> 1921-1935 peace dollar
> 1892-1964 half dollar
> 1916-1964 quarter
> 1892-1964 dime
> 
> 40% silver:
> 1965-1969 half dollar
> 
> 35% silver:
> 1942-1945 nickel
> 
> copper:
> 1793-1857 penny - 100% copper
> 1857-1864 penny - 88% copper
> 1864-1982 penny - 95% copper
> 1938-1943 nickel - 75% copper
> 1946-2012 nickel - 75% copper


Wow, thanks for that information! I'm going to print this post out! Ahh, you're awesome! :kiss:


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## AlabamaGal

Salekdarling said:


> Wow, thanks for that information! I'm going to print this post out! Ahh, you're awesome! :kiss:


Or perhaps just compulsive. 

You're welcome.


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## TheAnt

Immolatus said:


> For you to actually 'profit' from them, 2 things would have to happen:
> 1) The composition of the nickel would have to change, which is apparently in the works. Once this happens and they are made out of worthless zinc or whatever, the copper nickels will dissapear from circulation very quickly.
> 2) The law that prohibits the melting down of said copper coinage (nickels and pre 82 pennies) is repealed. Until then, you will be hard pressed to find someone to give you more than face value (i.e. the value of the metal) because noone wants to take the risk of melting them down.


I went back through and read this whole thread.

Immolatus has it right in the above post but I would add:

If you expect to realize a profit from investing in pennies and nickles that have a higher content value then face value keep a few things in mind.

Firstly none of us know what is going to happen in the future though we can make some educated guesses that can give us a higher chance/rate of returns.

The way I see it the only way to have a good chance of making a real profit on these coins is for what Immolatus said above to happen but then you *MUST *sell before any perceived collapse happens that greatly affects industry. The problem is that the high price of copper and nickel right now is primarily because of industry. If there is less industry there is going to be a glutton of copper/nickel on the market and your coins will be worth less (but not worthless like your paper currency).

IF a collapse of this magnitude were to happen I expect it to happen fairly quickly which means your window of opportunity would close quickly. An expanded timeline like Immolatus':

1) The composition of the nickel would have to change, which is apparently in the works. Once this happens and they are made out of worthless zinc or whatever, the copper nickels will dissapear from circulation very quickly.

2) The law that prohibits the melting down of said copper coinage (nickels and pre 82 pennies) is repealed. Until then, you will be hard pressed to find someone to give you more than face value (i.e. the value of the metal) because noone wants to take the risk of melting them down.

3) SELL BEFORE ANY SORT OF INDUSTRIAL COLLAPSE MENTIONED IN STEP 4. This window of opportunity could last years, months, maybe even days.

4) Perceived collapse on a scale that greatly affects consumption or industry causes copper and nickel prices to collapse therefore destroying profits before realized. A collapse of this nature may not happen but my guess is that if things dont change we will see a precipitous drop in consumption worldwide and industrial metals (copper, nickel) will lose value quickly. Silver and gold should maintain value and even rise in relation to any and all fiat currency in a collapsed economy because their value is timeless. Silver could likely see some drop early on in a collapse of this nature but I believe it would eventually gain popularity as a trade currency.

Whats my point? Copper and nickel will be abundant in a major collapse. If there is no electricity and you needed copper just pull it out of your walls. I mean the stuff is everywhere and in a very refined state. The only reason it has such a high value is because we live in an industrialized world now. I would not plan on saving copper and nickel for trade in a *severely* collapsed society.


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## Immolatus

SVT80 said:


> I think I'm confused...when I first started reading about this, I thought just buy a bunch of nickels in the hopes that when they go out of circulation they would increase to say 5x's their value in the future (maybe)...then you could sell them off for a profit....I guess that's not a possibility.


In theory, yes, but IMHO, only because of the value of the metal, not because it will be 'rare' or a collectors item. There are millions of nickels around, it will be a looong (prolly not in our lifetime) time before they have any numismatic (value as a collectors item) value.



UncleJoe said:


> That's the idea. Once they start to disappear from circulation, collector value kicks in just like pre '65 dimes, quarters and half dollars.


If you mean 'collector' value as in numismatic, I dont think that will ever happen in our lifetime. A 1963 dime is worth its silver content, and nothing more, unless it is some special rare coin.



nj_m715 said:


> It is for me, but in the mean time if you need cash, you have it. Let's say I put cash into something I think will increase in value, like a silver coin or a baseball card for example. Now my engine blows in my car, my heater takes a dump etc. I need to turn my baseball card into cash to spend. The nickels/copper pennies are a hedge and cash. Two for one.
> 
> If you really think copper and nickel will go up 5x in a few years and you want to invest. Then just go to the scrap yard and buy some copper. You can sell it for cash anytime you want to. If the value of copper goes down (it did last years) you could end up on the wrong end of the deal. If copper goes to 10 cents a pound a nickel is still 5 cents. That's the dual role.


Yes.



SVT80 said:


> Isn't part of what makes all those coins worth more is that they are rare? Or does that make only a negligible difference since most of it's value comes from what it is made of?


See above.



TheAnt said:


> The way I see it the only way to have a good chance of making a real profit on these coins is for what Immolatus said above to happen but then you *MUST *sell before any perceived collapse happens that greatly affects industry. The problem is that the high price of copper and nickel right now is primarily because of industry. If there is less industry there is going to be a glutton of copper/nickel on the market and your coins will be worth less (but not worthless like your paper currency).
> 
> *3) SELL BEFORE ANY SORT OF INDUSTRIAL COLLAPSE MENTIONED IN STEP 4. This window of opportunity could last years, months, maybe even days.*
> 
> *4) Perceived collapse on a scale that greatly affects consumption or industry causes copper and nickel prices to collapse therefore destroying profits before realized. A collapse of this nature may not happen but my guess is that if things dont change we will see a precipitous drop in consumption worldwide and industrial metals (copper, nickel) will lose value quickly. Silver and gold should maintain value and even rise in relation to any and all fiat currency in a collapsed economy because their value is timeless. Silver could likely see some drop early on in a collapse of this nature but I believe it would eventually gain popularity as a trade currency.*
> 
> Whats my point? Copper and nickel will be abundant in a major collapse. If there is no electricity and you needed copper just pull it out of your walls. I mean the stuff is everywhere and in a very refined state. The only reason it has such a high value is because we live in an industrialized world now. I would not plan on saving copper and nickel for trade in a *severely* collapsed society.


I would like to point out how many times Ant said "Immolatus". 

*This is 2000% correct in a SHTF event. No electricity=no demand for copper=no value. Financial meltdown=no investment demand (say goodbye to any numismatic value for anything, much less a 2012 nickel)*, *and I would have to assume that it wouldnt increase in value at all and youre better off spending them rather than hoarding them.*

IMHO: If you are doing it for fun, looking for silver, have at.
Saving nickles you get during your day makes sense, actively searching them out does not.

Strictly as an investment, you could only make out if 1) and 2) happen (sorry I deleted my own quote out of this before I wrote it...) but NO SHTF. If 1 & 2 happen, lets just say a nickel doubles in value, you sell 3/4 of your nickels for the 50% profit ("locking in the profit"), and hang on to the rest, just for kicks and just in case it keeps going up. _This sounds too much like investment advice. See standard investment disclaimer._

In summary, Ant is right. I would like to hear what Bill has to say about all this too... Seems like its purely an investment play, and not a prep. UncleJoe, is this correct?


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## timmie

*cashier*

i work as a cashier and you are right;a lot of old money is being brought in to our store.my daughter saves nickels and pennies as a hobby. i support this hobby. they may or may not ever be worth anything but face value,but it is something she enjoys doing.she separates them by mint and year and then rolls them up. actually any change;but also if we need it for something we use it .this is one of those never ending hobbies.


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## BillS

After it hits the fan I see old coins as having value based solely on their melt value. I think whether or not anyone ever plans on melting them down is irrelevant. Silver was made into coins as an easy way to verify that you were getting a standard amount of silver. Silver and gold have long been viewed as money regardless of their other uses. The fact that pennies and nickels contain metals that are purely industrial metals makes it more difficult to agree on their value after it hits the fan. In a post-SHTF world it's easy to imagine people seeing gold and silver coins as being valuable but seeing little or no value in pennies and nickels. Right now a 90% silver dime is worth about $2 or about the same price as a loaf of bread. I could see post-collapse barter based on selling groups of items for sale for one silver coin. So maybe 5 apples or 10 potatoes or 1 loaf of bread would equal one silver coin. Just some thoughts.


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## UncleJoe

Immolatus said:


> Seems like its purely an investment play, and not a prep. UncleJoe, is this correct?


Sorry Immolatus, I missed this the other day.

That's the way I look at it. I don't expect to be able to get a huge return on my stash, but in 30 years when the real nickels are long pulled from circulation, my kids will have something of value.


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## cajunmeadows

What date should we stop collecting. All coins up to 2012?


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## UncleJoe

It depends on when the change takes place. If it happens this year, 2010 on back is what you'll want. If it doesn't happen till next year, add 2011 to the collection.


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## OdieB

Uncle Joe - You and I do math the same way... perhaps he was talking about "bricks" of nickels. The big boxes that the banks use. I think this is a great idea though. -OdieB


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## OdieB

Hi Everybody! Ant has several very valid points. In my opinion no matter what route we take we should be well balanced. Some of this, some of that. I think it's always smart to have some hard coins. One thing is true for me: I can "save" coins easier than I save paper bills. When I want to go to the store, or grab money for a restaurant, or for the kids, or just for my pocket, I always go for paper money. If it's a choice between rolled coins or nothing - I often choose to go without. This has been an interesting experiment with my children too. When they need money for a movie, or a treat and I tell them all I have is a roll of nickels, they hesitate. Sometimes I think they are embarrassed to pay with coins. Other times I think they really take a look at our restricted budget! Either way, more money saved. -OdieB


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## UncleJoe

*House Holds Hearing On Future Of Coin Production*

http://www.coinworld.com/articles/testimony-cites-savings-from-using-steel/

One industry consultant argues that eliminating the cent would not result in any cost savings, that even if the U.S. Mint received for free the metal used in making the cent and 5-cent coin, the remaining costs assigned to the two denominations would still be above their face value.

Switching to a steel-layered composition for all circulating U.S. coin denominations would save millions of dollars annually in production costs, a consultant testified April 17 before a House Banking Subcommittee hearing on "The Future of Money: Coin Production."

Rodney J. Bosco, director of disputes and investigation practice for Navigant Consulting Inc., Washington, D.C., presented the 68-page findings from Jarden Zinc Products during testimony before the House Committee on Financial Services' Subcommittee on Domestic Monetary Policy & Technology.

Among his comments, *Bosco advocated the adoption of a program to recover selected circulating coinage in their current compositions for metal reclamation.*...

...Canada has maintained an active program the past six years to remove the older nickel and nickel alloy coins from circulation, defacing them and selling the recovered metal for scrap, as the multi-ply coins remain in circulation, Weber said.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*If TPTB are looking at "reclaiming" the base metals, that only means one thing. They have real value.

ARE YOU SAVING YOUR NICKELS? *


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## Alienhomicide

Does anyone here collect "junk" silver coins?


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## md1911

Alienhomicide said:


> Does anyone here collect "junk" silver coins?


I do a little. I practice everything in moderation.


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## BillS

Alienhomicide said:


> Does anyone here collect "junk" silver coins?


Yes. I'm a big believer in junk silver. I bought mine from Provident Metals for 6% over the spot price. That included shipping and the credit card surcharge. The first junk silver I bought was a big pile of dimes. Silver is down right now. The spot price for dimes is slightly less than $2 each. Any more junk silver that I'll buy will be either quarters or dollars.

http://www.providentmetals.com/coins/us-silver-coins/coin-90-silver-us-junk.html

And just for the record, and for about the fifth time on this thread, I don't think stocking up on nickels makes much sense. The great thing about junk silver dimes is that they're great for small purchases during hyperinflation or a barter situation. If I remember right, 1000 90% silver dimes weigh about 7 1/2 pounds. It's also much more portable if you have to bug out.

A nickel weighs about 5 grams. A 1964 and earlier dime weighs 2.5 grams. By quantity a 1964 or earlier dime is worth 40 times more than a modern nickel. By weight a 1964 or earlier dime is worth 80 times more than a modern nickel.
$2000 worth of dimes weighs 7.5 pounds. $2000 worth of nickels weighs 600 pounds. And of course that much silver is about the size of a paperback book and is much easier to conceal than 600 pounds worth of nickels.


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## Zonation

I'm personally hoarding nickels because of the nickel content and not because of any silver content. If we look at coinflation.com, we see that of all currencies, the nickel is worth more than its .05 value. The main reason is because sometime in the the near future it will lose all nickel content and therefore it will become worthless. The same thing happened to some o the currency after they decided to drop the silver content. Now those pre 64 coins are worth something. 
Traitor Obama already signed the legislation to start creating nickels without the nickel content. The government is now testing the contents in which the new coins will be created. My advice is to board all nickels, walking liberty half's, Morgan's and mercury dimes.



Alienhomicide said:


> Does anyone here collect "junk" silver coins?


Indefinitely do. In as big of quantities as I can. Mostly Morgan's, peace, an walking liberties.


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## Immolatus

And as of today, a nickel is worth less than $.05 in metal.
I wonder what Kyle Bass is doing with all his nickels now?


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## Zonation

Immolatus said:


> And as of today, a nickel is worth less than $.05 in metal.
> I wonder what Kyle Bass is doing with all his nickels now?


That's a great question. Just saw a nickel is at .475. If it drops lower I'll turn those nickels into junk silver.


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## Immolatus

Prolly not a bad idea.


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