# Discuss: Geothermal heating of a house



## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

I have been doing some reading about geothermal heating of a house and I have been quoted many different amounts of money to make it happen. I plan to have geothermal heating in my next house (if at all possible) and found that for under $10,000 (best quote) I could probably have it running as a closed-loop no-maintenance system.

I have not found any downsides in the theory behind it, and, in the practical nature, none either.

Looking for a discussion on geothermal.

To get you all started on the path to geothermal:


Geothermal Heating Systems
HowStuffWorks "How Geothermal Energy Works"
HowStuffWorks "How Can We Use Geothermal Energy?"
Geothermal heat pump - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## northernontario (Oct 29, 2008)

My father has heated and cooled his house for years with an air-source heat pump. Geothermal is essentially the same thing, except instead of using the air as your heat source/dump source, you are using the ground. 

The downside to transferring heat to/from the ground is that heat is not easily conducted through dirt. (pipes layed in trenches). Whereas air-source heat pumps can easily transfer heat to/from the air, ground-source heat pumps need more surface area to transfer the heat. 

But the huge upside... the ground is a fairly constant temp. Instead of trying to generate heat from -20C air, you're transferring heat from +12C ground. And instead of trying to cool (reject heat) to +30C air, you're transferring to +12C ground. 

Several routes to go with the outside portion (the Wiki article covers it well).

The inside route... forced air vs. water....

Forced air is good if you plan to use it as air conditioning. Water, used as in-floor radiant heating, is a much better heating system. Easier to control 'zones' of the house. And heat at your feet feels much nicer than heat swirling around your head. You can actually keep the temperature of your house lower with radiant heating, because the act of heating your feet makes you feel warmer. 

I think part of the big expense with geothermal is based on how the system is installed, and the labour for it... drilling a well versus digging a trench... If you have friends with connections, or you have knowledge and access to equipment, you can lower your costs. (when my father built his 30x40 shop, he bought a used backhoe... calculated that it would be cheaper for him to buy it and maintain it, instead of paying someone else to do all the digging, back filling, etc etc. And now he's got a backhoe to use around the farm. Lots of fun!)


----------



## bunkerbob (Sep 29, 2009)

*earth tube*

I've been looking at this method of heat exchange for a while, not only for the efficiency aspect but also for the monetary consideration. This can be done by an individual rather than hiring a contractor. Take a look...Earthtubes (earthtubing) are sustainable, non-electric, passive geothermal heating and cooling systems.


----------



## Canadian (Dec 14, 2008)

I've seen companies that do it at the annual new home show in Toronto. They systems look awesome. The only drawback is if there are too many houses in a small area using this system. It actually changes the temperature of the soil and drops in efficiency and has an impact on the ecosystem in the soil.

If you're the only one using it then there's no problem. They can also do the same thing with water if you live on a lake or very large pond.


----------



## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

If I get the acreage that I want, I would want to be "digging" a "moat" around the property for additional water-storage. The "moat" would be more of a pretty thing with a draw-bridge for vehicles to cross over and arched foot-bridges to get from one side to the other (my grandpa built a foot bridge over his creek to reach from one side to the other of his property).

I love water - so - if possible I would also dig in a large pond that could be filled with fish and put a wind-power'd air-pump to keep the water oxygenated and use a wind-powered water-pump to pull fresh water from the "moat" to keep the pond filled with water at all times.

So many ideas .... so little money


----------



## bunkerbob (Sep 29, 2009)

Have 'Canadian' help you dig it with his "pick and shovel" as he offered to help me with the underground dig.


----------



## Canadian (Dec 14, 2008)

My arms will be ripped!!!!!


----------



## Tex (Oct 31, 2008)

I'd like to build a convertible system. I could choose between recirculating the houses air or bringing outside air into the house through ductwork in the ground. I'd worry about about the air getting stale, but I like the efficiency of a closed system. With an open system, I'd like to employ clerestory windows for natural cooling.


----------



## fognar (Sep 22, 2010)

what do you guys think about a DIY system with several radiators from a car hooked together, bury them, then pump water through them and use that to cool my house?


----------



## nj_m715 (Oct 31, 2008)

It would have to be a small house or you need a lot of radiators. Any way rads. are meant to have air flow through them, so save your money and just use plastic pipe.

I'm far from an expert, but I think you can do it 2 ways. You can long trenches, that could be dug by hand or backhoe, or you can do it on a small lot by drilling deep wells for the pipes. 

I do HVAC work, the only first hand experience I had with one was to convert it back to a conventional high eff. system. The home owner wasn't happy with it and experienced some problems, but I was just a doing the work I don't know the details. I seemed crazy to me to abandon several thousand dollars of investment. It reminded me of when they pulled the solar panels off the white house roof.


----------



## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

I have heard that Geo thermal doesn't work well in the heavy clay soil of this area, clay isn't as conductive as sandy soil. 
Personaly with the amount of sun we normally get in this part of the country super insulation coupled with solar gain and night shutters would probably work better 
Geo thermal is also very dependant on outside power sources for the heat pump 
In my opinion geothermal as a heat source is over rated and probably not very user serviceable in a SHTF type situation unless you already have refridgeration experience and tools :scratch


----------



## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

Tirediron said:


> I have heard that Geo thermal doesn't work well in the heavy clay soil of this area, clay isn't as conductive as sandy soil.
> Personaly with the amount of sun we normally get in this part of the country super insulation coupled with solar gain and night shutters would probably work better
> Geo thermal is also very dependant on outside power sources for the heat pump
> In my opinion geothermal as a heat source is over rated and probably not very user serviceable in a SHTF type situation unless you already have refridgeration experience and tools :scratch


One of the very first known GeoThermal systems in the world is located in Calgary in an area known as MountRoyal. The guy who put it in, designed it and implemented it just before he invented the air-conditioner. From my understanding, it has been running "for free" for close-to 70 years now.

I tried to google the house and its location, but, for some reason, I am unable to find it - probably due to all the new companies that are taking the top-spots in the search-engine.


----------



## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

If the system in Mount Royal has been working for free it must be a passive loop
heat exchanger , a geo thermal system in todays market uses a grid powered heat pump, refrigerant based system using the ground for a cold sink in winter and a heat sink in summer .
If you find the info on the system please post a link


----------



## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

I tried a couple of other search engines (Vroosh .ca etc ) but couldn't find any reference to the history


----------



## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

Same here.

A friend of mine who used to live in MountRoyal told me all about it - he has since moved to Japan, met some girl and married her. I don't think he'll be comin' back here anytime soon ..


----------



## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Is there a way to bolean(sp) search newspaper archives for that period?? the calgary hearld has been around for a very long time.


----------



## bunkerbob (Sep 29, 2009)

Here's what I found on that... Geothermal Installation Montreal


----------



## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

Tirediron said:


> Is there a way to bolean(sp) search newspaper archives for that period?? the calgary hearld has been around for a very long time.


If I remember my facts right, it was around 1916 to 1920 that the house was built with the GeoThermal systems in place. I have exhausted my Google-Fu - now I might need to do a door-to-door search of the area ...

Can you imagine how :nuts: people will think I am for doin' that? :sssh:


----------



## longtime (Nov 22, 2009)

Is this what you are talking about?

(641) 472-4953 Natural Air Conditioning and Heating using the Earth!


----------



## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

LongTime - that is a slightly different system that uses air as the transport-system of the heat from the earth. The systems that I have linked above uses a fluid heat-transfer similiar in nature to engine-antifreeze (glycol) that is pumped as "in-floor-heating" ...

I will be doing some more reading and research into the system that you linked in ... 

:thankyou:


----------



## longtime (Nov 22, 2009)

I would be concerned about mold in that system, but he says he has that covered. A closed system with proper slope and drainage, maybe.

I have considered the glycol sytem, but pumping energy as compaired to modern ground source heat pump energy ???


----------



## GetPreparedStuff (Dec 16, 2009)

Does earth coupled solar homes count as a geo home?

One home design that uses the natural even temperature of the earth along with the ability of solid wood timbers to hold onto heat. The homes are called Enertia. www.enertia.com


----------



## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

I think the enertia system is overly complicated for what you get, In sunny locations solar effect should work well, 
I would also think that a Glycol ground loop could be combined with solar "water heater panels and make a very efficient system , provided that you have enough solar gain and some storage mass capacity,


----------



## rflood (Aug 19, 2010)

I've looked at Geothermal but the prices I have gotten were more than the 10K you were able to get in on Naekid.


----------



## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

I talked to a guy yesterday who is going to heat his house with solar water heaters , a 10000 gallon water heat battery , and a much smaller heat pump.
Exponentialy more efficient than current ground source methods.


----------



## Tex (Oct 31, 2008)

Tirediron said:


> I talked to a guy yesterday who is going to heat his house with solar water heaters , a 10000 gallon water heat battery , and a much smaller heat pump.
> Exponentialy more efficient than current ground source methods.


A huge South Facing fish tank window would be cool if it could be done. That may be great for heating, but our biggest concern in Texas is cooling.  Since my wife gets migraines from excessive heat)


----------



## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Same system also works in reverse, solar type collectors facing the blackness of the night sky will release a lot of heat , this too can be stored in a large well insulated tank and run thru some type of thermal mass.


----------



## Tex (Oct 31, 2008)

I've long wondered if something like in Longtime's link would be feasible. It's good to see it in use.

Thanks for the info, Longtime.


----------



## dahur (Dec 18, 2009)

I looked very closely at geo-thermal as a heating cooling option. Both estimates I got were around $7500 per ton. And I would require around 4 tons (2200 sq ft) Of course the Fed and NM pays 40% of that cost. Still a huge investment, IMO. 

I'm now looking at the Acadia Air source heat pump as an option. Around $12k with the installation, (there are many factors affecting actual end price-this is just an average)
As you know air source heat pumps are usually only good down to around 40 F. what's unique about the Acadia, is it uses 2 compressors, and is quoted good to -30. That's overkill for here in southern NM, but we get to upper teens sometimes here in the desert. 
I believe it's rated at SEER 16, and does the AC too.
Also elgible for Fed and State tax credit.


----------



## SaskDame (Aug 27, 2010)

Looked at this a few years ago, including talking to a number of high volumn real estate agents. For some reason most of the homes with geothermal have the systems replaced with other heating systems after about 10 years.

My recollection is that in dry soils, the temps around the ground pipes decreases over time and the system looses efficiency where the system needs to either be moved or expanded to maintain capacity to actually heat the home during periods of extreame cold.


----------



## richelle29 (Aug 2, 2011)

*hello everyone!*

Hi i can recommend quality geo heat pumps.. Geothermal Heating Ohio Valley


----------

