# Shock factor



## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

The people who visit and participate on forums like these for the most part are the first to admit that things will be rough in a long term SHTF / TEOTWAWKI, for those who admit S can hit the fan , what do you think the thought process for those who are sure things will be looked after. 
Here not far enough away from a city of A million people, it has been cold for 2 weeks , Daytime highs of -15C on most of the warmer days cold down to - 40C (same as 40 below F ) how long would it take for a house too cool off if the grid was taken out. Cold happens fast and to those who don't normally spend much time in it hypothermia sets without much warning.
Maybe 10% would survive these conditions for a few days if no one resqued them. 
We went to a couple of BIG out door /camping /fishing stores lately, they had Camp capachino and latte makers but the only alternative fire starter was the crappy Coghlans "magnesium/flint blocks 
Over the span of one generation people have become very helpless and I am talking about the people who think they live in the wild west here.:gaah:


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

Just a side bar to one small part of the post...

_We went to a couple of BIG out door /camping /fishing stores lately, they had Camp capachino and latte makers but the only alternative fire starter was the crappy Coghlans "magnesium/flint blocks _

I've always smirked at the notion that fire starting is a 'skill' that's essential to survival and survivalism.

I've got a fire steel, magnesium bars, etc., and those are neat to have as they're toys. I also know how to make fires about seven or eight different ways, but all of that is NEARLY USELESS information. Practicing fire starting is a waste of time.

Lighters cost what? Fifty cents? A pack of matches is free. A box of strike anywhere matches maybe a buck. Some water resistant matches at Walmart, maybe a $1.59.

I've always thought about how stupid it'd be for someone to sit there rubbing two sticks together or scraping a pile of magnesium in the cold. I'd simply start a fire with some cut strips from a Diet Coke bottle with a lighter. Instead of spending hours learning how to make a fire drill or sitting around with a flashilght lens I'd simply find ways of carrying a few matches and a lighter. There's also plastic trash just about everywhere, but some strips of soda bottle weigh next to nothing, don't get affected by damp, burn when wet, and cost nothing. Yeah, it's bad to burn a lot of plastic because of Dioxin, but starting a fire with a burning strip of plastic is a lot easier than most things I'd find in a forest growing there.

The plane crash scenario is one that's often used to separate a person from their matches and lighters. Well, if I survive a plane crash and no one knows where we are and I need to start a fire to keep living, that means I sure didn't land in the water as I'd die of hypothermia around here so that means I'm on land. Before I resort to shaving off some magnesium and striking the firesteel I think there must be a half hundred better ways to start a fire if one has access to an airplane that's been damaged.

There's a reason many people don't know some survival skills. It's because they've been rendered useless by consumer goods and their availability.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

SurviveNthrive said:


> Just a side bar to one small part of the post...
> 
> _We went to a couple of BIG out door /camping /fishing stores lately, they had Camp capachino and latte makers but the only alternative fire starter was the crappy Coghlans "magnesium/flint blocks _
> 
> ...


So why do you prepp at all after all you can just go to Walmart and get what you need


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

Most so called sportin goods stores cater ta the yuppies. Gettin dang hard ta find the stuff ya really need fer the outdoors. I have ta look all over the internet ta find the stuff we use fer search & rescue an CERT, let alone the personal stuff we need.

Much of it is available locally IE: first aid supplies, the types a food we store an some gear, but then ya gotta look fer the specialtey stuff like fire starters an such.

Yes match's, lighters an such will light a fire, but I've seen them not work fer one reason er another. I've always felt it best ta have many options available ta build fire, find food, make shelter, just the basics a life.

The day may come when you have ta depend on yerself an find yer family starin at ya wantin dinner. Best ta have several ways to take care of it.


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

> There's a reason many people don't know some survival skills. It's because they've been rendered useless by consumer goods and their availability./





> *So why do you prepp at all after all you can just go to Walmart and get what you need*


This is a beautiful example of how some folks don't understand survivalism and preparedness.

The flaw of thinking that just because we prep, we'll be better at everything in survivalism than all others...

Preparedness is just that, working toward a state of being prepared for anticipated problems. It goes beyond resourcing and definitely beyond something like fire starting. Fire starting is a minicule part of that, probably less of a factor than battery replacement for equipment or generator starting which are also small steps toward a greater effort. In addition to buying what a person anticipates as future needs, There are many aspects to preparedness including site threat awareness to include being aware of natural and man made hazards, mitigation efforts of those threats and plans for recovery. This involves many steps including research, modifications of structures, even the selection of where one lives. There's forms of training for family members and self to include first aid, security, resource management and even history. The threats consist of multiple hazards and some of those hazards are unique and require additional resourcing and planning to mitigate. Using an example of a first aid kit, a true survivalist knows that most kits are band aid packs, worthless for real injuries and they either move toward the real thing or else learn to work with other items. That's a much better use of time than scratching wood against wood or holding a magnifying glass on tinder. There are many things worth experimenting with to gain knowledge.

If a person's preparedness rises to a peak with how to start a fire without a match or a lighter, that person doesn't understand survivalism. fire starting is a wonderfully SYMBOLIC example.

The shock factor for many survivalists is the fact that some who never engage in preparedness will smoke most of us who are dedicated to it, when the times comes.

Using the example of my sister and her family regarding preparedness, while they aren't survivalists, and they definitely were Yuppies, he's an Aerodynamic Engineer and she's middle management for a software firm, the fantasy that some preppers have that although they aren't doing great in this world, they'll really be something in contrast with such people in a survivalist situation is silly. Capable people are capable. If they turn the same energy and skills toward preparedness they're definitely going to smoke the average prepper who isn't doing as well in life when things happen. Many of these people learn in different manners. They don't need to spend a total of many days out in the woods to learn how to survive. Some of them can simply read and learn. Even the average person doesn't need to build a debris shelter to know how to make one. I've seen a woman do a full function check on two pistols, having never handled a firearm before, just frrom reading an article on those pistols the day before. These are also people who can through tremendous amounts of money into things if need be and they didn't get where they are by ignoring warning signs.

Although a stilted program, the 2nd year's Alaska experiment really showed that it's what a person's made of that matters more than anything else. The self proclaimed outdoorswoman and the fishing guide were worthless and didn't last more than a day or two. In contrast a building superintendent from New York, a horse trainer and a latte sipping fitness instructor who some considered to be all hairspray and make up smoked them and kept going because they were capable people, intelligent enough to learn, and they possessed strong will and that's what mattered.

If you're not doing well in this current situation with all the resources and tremendous opportunties available, you're not going to do well post TEOTWAWKI. By doing well, I don't mean being well off necessarily, I mean meeting your reasonable objectives and living a comfortable life without a lot of self created problems.

If you're capable and showing it now, you'll have a better edge then.

Preparedness is an edge to help us do even better if things get worse.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

Reading about building a debris shelter is a good prerequisite to actually building one but until you've done it, it's only a theory. If you actually need one you're probably going to be cold, tired and afraid. None of these are conducive to efficiency and you may die of exposure before you get the job done. One of the first questions I was asked by a wilderness survival instructor was my personal opinion of using a "solar still" to acquire water. It was a loaded question and would quickly sort out those who had merely read about doing it and those who had actually done it. 

There are different types of survivalists and preppers. In my experience, those who really know their wilderness survival excell at every aspect of survival including stocking up provisions and the other things mentioned above. Most of those who are proficient at primitive methods like making a fire with flint and steel, rubbing sticks together, magnifying glasses, etc. are very good at using matches or lighters. I know a lot of people who think they can start a fire and they can as long as conditions are ideal but let them try it in rain or snow (when you're likely to need it most!) and see what happens.

I get tired of people who think "reading" how to do something is enough and never actually practice and become proficient at it. Can you imagine our military doing that? Maybe they should just have the recruits read about marching and firing their rifles and read about battlefield tactics then send them out to war! Heck, maybe the local SWAT team or maybe the paramedics should also just read about their craft then think they actually know what they're doing. Would you feel good about a paramedic showing up to an accident, looking at you, then getting out the manual to see what to do next? That's why they train!!! So that when the time comes they don't have to find a flashlight and read the instructions!!!!!

Storing food, weapons, medicines, etc. is a good start on prepping but it should be only the beginning. If you want to go on to graduate school in preparedness you'll need to expand your skills beyond the basics. Otherwise, what happens to you if the lights never come back on and outside help never arrives? You just survive until your preps run out then die like the other sheeple who preceeded you. 

And the world will probably be better off without you.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

Tirediron said:


> ... We went to a couple of BIG out door /camping /fishing stores lately, they had Camp capachino and latte makers but the only alternative fire starter was the crappy Coghlans "magnesium/flint blocks. ...


Rating fire starting methods _under adverse conditions _I'd put the magnesium fire starters below lighters and matches but above flint and steel and other primitive methods. Mainly because the magnesium will ignite and burn hot even when wet. The other advantages of them include you can dip it in the water and still make a fire with it plus it's totally self-contained ... no need to carry tinder, etc. as with a lot of different striker-type fire starters. The M's major weakness is wind. It's hard to keep the little shavings in place when the wind is blowing.


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

We've had this discussion. I've been certified vocational instructor (can give college credit), I've been an FTO, class facilitator, and green tabber in the Army. I'm a strong proponent of training, but I know a bit about how people learn things.

You're some guy with an opinion based on limited personal experience of no practical value except in experiencing misery in your neck of the woods, when others could do it better. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

You're the sort who has to walk through waist high snow with others to learn that it's easier to break snow and conduct movement in a file with rotations, rather than walking a breast. I'm the sort who read about it and simply moved toward that mode when the situation occurs. I didn't need time 'discovering it'. This is an excellent example of our differences.

Training is fantastic, but it's not necessary for all people in all things, and definitely not the end all in preparedness.

_I get tired of people who think "reading" how to do something is enough and never actually practice and become proficient at it. Can you imagine our military doing that?_

Not sayinig that. Different people learn different things in different ways. For many folks, they have to learn the hard way on everything. Others can perform well in many things simply by knowing what the standards are and how to do it, without having to do it. Training is good, but it's often unnecessary for many. The problem is the lowest common denominator.

Some of us simply reviewed the Manual of Common Tasks and performed the task to standards during the 'Pre Test' and when we pass we don't have to do the training. Knocked out that day and a half of training the last time I did it rather quickly as did my better NCO's. I walked up to the station, reviewed the manual, preformed the task and left others behind to be trained.

My squad leaders read through doing the BIT test on the PIVADS without going back to weapons trac and they did a good enough job we tore up some RCMATS with an unfamiliar upgrade to the system. Some folks can READ their way through things.

Read the manual. Read the manual. It's the best advice ever given to most.

I've seen new shooters receive a bit of instruction and go out and do wonderfully. I read about a shooting technique and went out and performed it, that doesn't need practice. (equiv of aim small, miss small) There's some great stuff out there.

Reading expands one's world beyond the immediate and the circle of people one deals with and I'd rather learn from the whole world than from a small group of people who know what I know, unless I'm seeking out a subject matter expert.

Different people learn things in different ways. Some folks are just plain intelligent and don't need to dig a ditch to understand how one digs a ditch. Some folks need to dig that ditch, others don't.

And somethings simply aren't going to be available as training devices and it's good to at least read about them.

_Maybe they should just have the recruits read about marching and firing their rifles and read about battlefield tactics then send them out to war!_

We've had this discussion before. Reading is good stuff. We had some soldiers who sat in the classroom, read the material, walked out there, saw equipment, got explained the parts and jumped right in. Then we had the rocks who had to keep doing it to learn. Guess which ones go to OCS?

One can learn things from reading and that helps work them through one's mind and on the ground when necessary.

I did my first ARTEP eval successfully without having done most of the things in the field. Get a concept, know the standards and it's possible. I'd never conducted an air ambush of rotary wing aircraft before, but I'd read the appropriate FM's. Some folks are simply bright and can be taught rapidly, others have to go through the steps. Some have to go through the steps because, well, they learn differently.

But hey, we're talking about something as simple as building a debris shelter, not advanced tactics. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to read and do something like that, although you have to work with what you have.

Take loading a ruck sack, learned that in the Marines. I saw it in the manual, but the drills took us step by step through it and even then, some had to learn by doing it more than once. I wondered what they were doing mentally when this was explained to them.

Years later, I simply describe the process to one of my sons. He demonstrated that he knew how to properly load a ruck, he wasn't learning by performing, he was simply demonstrating. He's not exactly a rock.

_Would you feel good about a paramedic showing up to an accident, looking at you, then getting out the manual to see what to do next?_

No, but I'd strongly prefer an paramedic who actually read about how to to do it in advance, and unless things changed, they learned a whole lot through books and class room instructions.

*Reading is good!*

_*That's why they train!!! So that when the time comes they don't have to find a flashlight and read the instructions!!!!!*_

I'd lay heavy odds that you are a person who needs to do something as you can't be told and you have difficulty reading. It's good that's the way you learn or try to learn.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

SurviveNthrive said:


> We've had this discussion. I've been certified vocational instructor (can give college credit), I've been an FTO, class facilitator, and green tabber in the Army. I'm a strong proponent of training, but I know a bit about how people learn things.
> 
> You're some guy with an opinion based on limited personal experience of no practical value except in experiencing misery in your neck of the woods, when others could do it better. Sorry, but that's the way it is.


Nasty, nasty!!! resorting to name calling already?

Sorry but I've seen too many people with flowing pedigrees and glowing reports of themselves to put too much stock in their opinions of themselves.

I'd rather have someone around who has had some practical experience. Reading about things is a good start but a person really needs to go on from there.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

I worked as mechanic for more years than I care to remember. We had so many people fresh out of VT school who thought they were mechanics and talked like they were mechanics but weren't. I could give many other examples from the military. Who made the best leaders, staff NCO's or 2nd Lt's. The Lt's had lots of schooling but weren't worth the powder to blow then to you know where most of the time.

I'm really not impressed by talk. Show us enough of your life and lifestyle that it will prove you actually know and believe in what you talk about.

Pedigrees are for dogs and most of the people I've known who had to tell everyone how great they are ... weren't that great.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

mosquitomountainman said:


> I worked as mechanic for more years than I care to remember. We had so many people fresh out of VT school who thought they were mechanics and talked like they were mechanics but weren't. I could give many other examples from the military. Who made the best leaders, staff NCO's or 2nd Lt's. The Lt's had lots of schooling but weren't worth the powder to blow then to you know where most of the time.
> 
> I'm really not impressed by talk. Show us enough of your life and lifestyle that it will prove you actually know and believe in what you talk about.
> 
> Pedigrees are for dogs and most of the people I've known who had to tell everyone how great they are ... weren't that great.


Now there is a whole bunch of truth. 
The man who is living the lifestyle by choice allready not working in a city theorizing
:congrat:


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

SurviveNthrive said:


> This is a beautiful example of how some folks don't understand survivalism and preparedness.
> 
> The flaw of thinking that just because we prep, we'll be better at everything in survivalism than all others...
> 
> ...


What asumption are you making here??


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

Misquito again brings in military things and again shows he doesn't know what he's talking about when I counter with examples of the Pre Test and how good field manuals and tech manuals are for teaching, if a person has reading comprehension. So he reverts on how he's wiser than any veterans and school taught techies!

_Yeah._ That's just talk, definitely not backed by anything and quite silly.

I'll take former combat arms servicemen and school trained mechanics over some guy who needs to walk in the snow to learn how to move with others through deep snow, and must actually make a debris shelter instead of simply learn the concept to get it down. They've done stuff, and it's not talk. Talk is claiming to be the master guru of survivalism because one uses a wood stove.

People can read and do things. They do it all the time.

Ever make something successfully from a new recipe? That's reading and doing.

_SurviveNthrive wrote:

If you're not doing well in this current situation with all the resources and tremendous opportunties available, you're not going to do well post TEOTWAWKI. By doing well, I don't mean being well off necessarily, I mean meeting your reasonable objectives and living a comfortable life without a lot of self created problems.If you're capable and showing it now, you'll have a better edge then.

Preparedness is an edge to help us do even better if things get worse. _

TireIron wrote:What asumption are you making here?? __________________

Hardly an assumption, it's a rational prediction.

A person who fails now, given all the opportunities, all the resources, and the lack of many potential post TEOTWAWKI threats isn't suddenly going to be propelled into a warlord master of the aftermath. Such a person isn't suddenly going to do better when there's a lack of resources, steep competition for what remains, and a need for the very skills he has failed to display thus far. That's a fantasy. More capable people are going to be more aggressive and the competition is going to be steeper.

How is an incompetent, lacking vision, education, work ethic, values, and other such traits, currently failing his society, family and such suddenly going to be worthwhile?

Sure, there will be exceptions, but anyone who thinks they'd be better off with TEOTWAWKI because they know how to start a fire with two sticks is delusional.

It's amazing the debates here.

*Reading is useful. Yes, you can actually learn things from reading!*

Let's see, in the time some foolish prepper might spend rubbing two sticks together to try to start a fire, getting that 'training' and 'practice', an intelligent prepper could probably accomplish the following:

They start working on some preps at the same time.

The smart prepper:

Buys lighters and some matches. Puts them in ziplock snack bags along with some cut up plastic slivers and put those baggies in packs and each vehicle.
Continue proper planning so he never winds up like a numbnuts where making a fire makes a difference between living and dying by picking good routes when traveling.
Put a firesteel and magnesium bar on his key chain as novelties.
Reads an entire small book on survivalism.

The Stick rubber:

Mean while, the stick rubber is excited. He's gotten a whiff of something almost burning, his reward for all that stick rubbing work.

The Smart prepper:

Checks out articles on substitutions for cooking with long term storage items.
Kicks back and catches the rest of the USC game on TV.

the Stick Rubber:

Mean while, the stick rubber actually saw a wisp of smoke!

[Yeah, that's a valuable skill. He's _training_, not theorizing.]

Stick rubber's eight year old son walks up and lights the tinder pile with a match. "Mom says it's time to come in, Dad."

That's OK, the Stick Rubber realizes that tomorrow, he's going to be Magnifing Glass handler!


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

Well, I think when a person has no other choice or opportunity, having books and learning from them is the next best thing to actually having tried out these things for one's self. 

I still think it's a good idea to try things at least once, if a person can. It makes ME feel a lot more confident about it. I like to know what to expect, and I like to work out the bugs when my life doesn't depend on it. 

I'll have enough on my hands, teaching our kids and grandkids if the SHTF and they have to bug out here, as well as helping them through the transition. I don't need to be putting "book learning" into practice for the first time in a real-life situation. 

Preparedness for me is going as far as I can to acquire knowledge and test it out. If it works for you to only acquire knowledge and not do a test run, then great for you! 

But don't mock those who DO like to try out these things. Asfor those who incorporate these things into every day life, it blows my mind that anyone would be sarcastic about that! 

I'm incredulous over the idea that someone would think it's stupid to do test runs and try out equipment or methods of doing things!


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

gypsysue said:


> Well, I think when a person has no other choice or opportunity, having books and learning from them is the next best thing to actually having tried out these things for one's self.
> 
> I still think it's a good idea to try things at least once, if a person can. It makes ME feel a lot more confident about it. I like to know what to expect, and I like to work out the bugs when my life doesn't depend on it.
> 
> ...


Nothing wrong with trying things out and expanding the knowledge. I'm addressing those who foolishly consider the height of preparedness to be rubbing two sticks together or firestarting when that's something Cub Scouts do...some of us operate at much higher levels and we do carry lighters.

We're not exactly going to be doing illicit fishing and trapping techniques to try them out, and that's a fine example of something to READ about, store the information, but never practice.

What I'd like to read about is some of this incredible training that misquito keeps referring to that is so involved he must do it everyday to learn that skill and how the rest of us survive without that level of perfection at that special skill. *Seen him criticize a lot of discussions but not one of these special skills he continually works on is shared by him. Not one.*


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

Dude, you really need to carefully read the previous posts. Reading is good. Study is good. Putting what you studied to the test is best.

Any fool can read how to build a debris shelter but until they've actually slept in one it's all theory. Do you have absolute confidence it will save your life? How long will it take to assemble one under ideal circumstances? How do you know? How long does it take the second time compared to the first time you make one? If you get faster with practice doesn't it make sense to build a few of them so that if the time comes when you are cold, tired and scared you can do it fast AND right? Are just taking the author at his word that they will keep you warm? If you want to base your survival on what other people wrote about go ahead. I'm not that trusting. I've seen too many fools who made lots of talk but had no experience to back it up. I'm not trusting my life to people like that.

Have you ever made and used a solar still? I read about making a solar still then tried it out. They are a joke. The best advice I ever read came from someone who actually tried it. He said you'll need several to get enough water to keep you alive. NO other author mentioned this. I talked to others who taught wildernes skills for a living and they all agreed that a solar still was almost useless for survival purposes. Most pointed out that you'll lose more water digging the hole than the still will make. If a person just read and never tested they might kill themselves thinking they were doing the right thing.

Have you ever actually built a fire in a driving rain? If not, what makes you think you can? Because you read a book about it?

Reading is good. Reading then doing is better. It's not a difficult concept to understand.

The stuff you talk about is good beginning level survivalism or preparedness. It will keep you alive until help arrives *if* you have enough preps made. People should grow beyond that though. A person should continue learning and become self-supporting rather than relying on their preps to sustain them until they are rescued by those who've actually gone to the next level of preparedness.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

SurviveNthrive said:


> Nothing wrong with trying things out and expanding the knowledge. I'm addressing those who foolishly consider the height of preparedness to be rubbing two sticks together or firestarting when that's something Cub Scouts do...some of us operate at much higher levels and we do carry lighters.
> 
> Noone said the height of preparedness is rubbing two sticks together to start a fire. Don't exaggerate. You're making a straw man just so you can knock him down. Can you do it? Or is this a skill boys can do but you can't?
> 
> ...


I have a great deal of admiration for primitive cultures. These were people who lived with almost nothing. They could survive and thrive without dependance upon modern conveniences. In other words, they were independant. Level one preparedness is still dependance upon "modern conveniences." Hopefully people will grow beyond that in their skill levels.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

I Didn't say firemaking is the ultimate survival skill, but a quick dip in the water or just a bit to much humidity wrecks matches. Lighters fail or leak. Like mosquitomountainman says those who can survive (or live their everyday lives) without modern consumer goods are skilled.
AND keep the personal attacks off of this forum . state your point and your evidence ,keep the insults unsaid.


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

_Dude, you really need to carefully read the previous posts. Reading is good. Study is good. Putting what you studied to the test is best.

Any fool can read how to build a debris shelter but until they've actually slept in one it's all theory. Do you have absolute confidence it will save your life? How long will it take to assemble one under ideal circumstances? How do you know? How long does it take the second time compared to the first time you make one? If you get faster with practice doesn't it make sense to build a few of them so that if the time comes when you are cold, tired and scared you can do it fast AND right? Are just taking the author at his word that they will keep you warm? If you want to base your survival on what other people wrote about go ahead. I'm not that trusting. I've seen too many fools who made lots of talk but had no experience to back it up. I'm not trusting my life to people like that._

During Cold Weather Survival training, both USMC and US Army, both at Huckleberry Creek, Mount Rainier, WA, I had Ranger instructors make us make shelters we had to live in. They gave us a few minutes instruction that might as well have been written and we went to it.

*What a titanic waste of time.* It doesn't take any brainwork to make one and it's merely tedious. Once you get the concept, that's all that's necessary for the average person. Combine that with common sense and a workable shelter is easy.

_Have you ever made and used a solar still? I read about making a solar still then tried it out. They are a joke. The best advice I ever read came from someone who actually tried it. He said you'll need several to get enough water to keep you alive. NO other author mentioned this. I talked to others who taught wildernes skills for a living and they all agreed that a solar still was almost useless for survival purposes. Most pointed out that you'll lose more water digging the hole than the still will make. If a person just read and never tested they might kill themselves thinking they were doing the right thing._

I live in the Pacific Northwest, Western Washington where water is plentiful and readily available. No, I'd not waste time making a solar still.

_Have you ever actually built a fire in a driving rain? If not, what makes you think you can? Because you read a book about it? _

Why in heaven's name would one make a fire in a driving rain when the first priority is shelter? See, that's an example, books will tell a person that.

_The stuff you talk about is good beginning level survivalism or preparedness. It will keep you alive until help arrives if you have enough preps made. People should grow beyond that though. A person should continue learning and become self-supporting rather than relying on their preps to sustain them until they are rescued by those who've actually gone to the next level of preparedness. _

I doubt a stick rubber will be of any useful help to me.


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

mosquitomountainman said:


> I have a great deal of admiration for primitive cultures. These were people who lived with almost nothing. They could survive and thrive without dependance upon modern conveniences. In other words, they were independant. Level one preparedness is still dependance upon "modern conveniences." Hopefully people will grow beyond that in their skill levels.


Post of the day!!!


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

_I have a great deal of admiration for primitive cultures._

I don't. I'm a realist. They failed. Nothing to admire about living in the dirt, infected by crawlies and no-see-ums, starving, cold, and subject to the weather. Children dying young, not being able to help sick relatives and loved ones is tragic and horible, nothing to admire about that.

These folks didn't improve their lot. They allowed their women to die from smoke related conditions because they didn't develop efficient heating and cooking fires. They suffered high infant mortality rates because it sucks to live in a grass hut on a dirt floor. They suffered lots of birth related deaths. They couldn't fix many alimenents that are now footnotes to us. They aged before their time.

Nope, my ancestors for a variety fo different places built wooden for stone floors, solidly constructed their homes and strived to make the world a better place fo each generation. Those are folks I respect. They didn't settle.

_These were people who lived with almost nothing. They could survive and thrive without dependance upon modern conveniences. In other words, they were independant. Level one preparedness is still dependance upon "modern conveniences." Hopefully people will grow beyond that in their skill levels._

They lived with nothing because they had nothing. Check out the Cargo Cult. When they could get things which made life easier, they accepted them rapidly.

With some odd exceptions, driven by power retaining individuals with those communities, those people normally left that primitive life style as rapidly as possible. The Native Americans in the plains took to the horse rapidly and they stole more horses to show wealth. In the Pacific Northwest they did Potlatch ceremonies. In the Yap Islands, lacking wealth they collected cut stones. In South American, the most primitive village has metal cooking pots, metal knives and axes and plastic jugs for water. They seek more axes, knives and pots than they can use and show them off as wealth. No one wants the silly idealized life that some pampered Americans think existed.

It sucks living like that. I'm realistic enough not to put romance in a lifestyle that sucks and those people reject it as soon as possible.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

And of course that's why we prepare isn't it? So we won't be forced into those conditions? But what happens if we are forced into those conditions? Should we just roll over and die? Are we so pampered that an inconveneint life will put us under?

P. S.

Hit the wrong button and this posted before I was finished writing. Didn't know about it until I made the next post.


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

mosquitomountainman said:


> And of course that's why we prepare isn't it? So we won't be forced into those conditions? But what happens if we are forced into those conditions? Should we just roll over and die? Are we so pampered that an inconveneint life will put us under?


We're not ignorant, primitives. We know better. I can't see generation after generation living on dirt floors. How would we ever be reduced to those conditions? Anything which breaks us down is going to kill a whole lot of people and that means remaining shelters.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

And of course that's why we prepare isn't it? So we won't be forced into those conditions? But what happens if we are forced into those conditions? Should we just roll over and die? Are we so pampered that an inconveneint life will put us under?

I do admire them much like I admire anyone who overcomes adversity. Would I LIKE to live as they did? No. That's why we can live off-grid yet still enjoy our internet and phone. We make choices of what we want or don't want in our life. If the technology is worth the price we have it. But just because it's "modern" doesn't mean it's worth the price you pay to have it. If by some unforseen influence we end up back in the stone age we are prepared for that too.

Like I said, level one preparedness is when you just store up stuff hoping you'll have enough to keep you alive until help arrives. Those on the next level have adequate provisions stored but have gone to the next step in being able to sustain their lives indefinitely. They've done more than just read about how to do it. They are doing it.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

How much smarter or more evolved is a Society where a couple of EMP s would mean the death of 80+ % of the population???
And what if your on a plane and the TSA takes away your lighter and matches...:scratch


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

Tirediron said:


> How much smarter or more evolved is a Society where a couple of EMP s would mean the death of 80+ % of the population??? ...


Good point!


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

SurviveNthrive said:


> I'd lay heavy odds that you are a person who needs to do something as you can't be told and you have difficulty reading. It's good that's the way you learn or try to learn.


ENOUGH with the personal attacks!! 
If you can't have a discussion without belittling others, SHUT UP.

BTW. Using your own words; practice *does* make a difference.

"I'm decent at driving in bad weather NOW because I had to learn somethings when I was younger...but I wasn's stupid about it then either. *I actually practiced* on roads with little or no traffic, I drove carefully and *within a short time I got pretty good*"


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

My argument isn't against practicing, I'm all for it, I'm insisting that some folks can simply read or hear or see and then do things to standard. I've been a trainer too long not to believe that because I see it every time. In fact, most of 'training' is simply introducing a concept and the majority get it and only need refinement. Some have to be taught. Some don't need anything further than the order to do something.

My concern is when people try to dissuade others by saying unless one does it, it doesn't matter and they can't do it. That's harmful.


I also believe that much of preparedness and survivalism should be grounded in reality. Some have a smug notion that because they've gotten into preps earlier and have done it for years, they've a tremendous edge over people who are doing well in society. Well, the truth is, if a person is very competent in this society, is smart, can gauge things and take advantage of the opportunities and use his or her abilities successfully when no major long term crisis exists, those people, despite not having gotten heavily into preps, might smoke the rest of us as they truly are, capable and adaptable people. By the same token, some preppers have a silly notion that although they've failed in this world with all the advantages, opportunities and resources, they'll some how do better post TEOTWAWKI because they're preppers. Not likely to happen. A failure is a failure and intelligent, aggressive, adaptable people wil smoke those failures.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

SurviveNthrive said:


> \
> By the same token, some preppers have a silly notion that although they've failed in this world with all the advantages, opportunities and resources, they'll some how do better post TEOTWAWKI because they're preppers. Not likely to happen.


Hmmm...I don't know who those people would be. The preppers on this forum are not failures. I guess that message is sort of wasted here. I'm happy for you that you are confident in your own preps and methods. It's great to know!

The people on this forum seem to be happy and content with what they're learning and doing, too!

Nope...I don't see any "failures" here. I love this group of people!


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

Oh, not folks here, at least I've not seen the sort of failure I'm mentioning in that post!!!

Here's what I'm referring to, not folks here, but other sorts of survivalists I've run across, fringers.

I'm talking about the sort of prepper who is doing poorly in this world, despite being given decent advantages who suddenly thinks that he's going to be a Warlord of the Aftermath and have slave girls fawning over him. He's going to take his Swapmeet Katana and destroy evil and impose his will.

Then you have the scary sort who think that they'l run to the woods, live off the land and raid you folks who are raising animals and crops, and take whatever they need. The see TEOTWAWKI to be a chance to get even and they can steal, plunder, kidnap and rape in some sort of arrested developmental pre pubsecent trapped angst fantasy.

there are others at lesser levels who believe that TEOTWAWKI is a good thing, a leveling effect, giving them a chance. they don't realize that the same traits that made them failures in a world with more or less security, ample resources and opportunties is going to be even more competitive and what cuts them out now is going to be magnified then.


I might prep and plan all I want, but I'm aware that given many longer term scenarios, folks who never spent a second doing preps or researching them can become adaptable and better at this than I ever could, and many of those folks have tremendous resources. Some preppers as well have resources I couldn't even imagine, for example simply buying up a lot of land, some developed for agriculture, some left as pristine forest with a clear running stream, test wells, the works, and build a house suitable for survivalism. 

I figure the best I can do, is the best I can do and survivalism learning provides just some edge.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

SurviveNthrive said:


> ...My concern is when people try to dissuade others by saying unless one does it, it doesn't matter and they can't do it. That's harmful. ...


I think the point of actually "doing" vs. just reading about doing something is that you can't be *sure* that you can "do it" unless you've already done it. If the subject material was well written and complete they *may* very well accomplish the task the first time they try it. But how does one know for sure that the material is well written and accurate unless you have, in fact, put it to the test? Just because someone wrote an article or taught a class doesn't mean they know if it works or not. Many articles and concepts are "researched" rather than accounts of the author's actual experiences. Awhile back I posted about a section in the SAS Survival, Evasion, Escape manual where they had an absolutely ridiculous illustration of an Atlatl. It's a respected survival manual but for those who've actually made, used, and understood the concepts of an atlatl it was obviously as phony as a three dollar bill. The wrong time to learn that would be when you were in a survival situation. I could point out dozens of other illustrations if I felt like it but the point is that a person shouldn't be so trusting that what they read is an actual reflection of reality. Prudence would seem to dictate that new ideas should be tested.

Sometimes, no matter how clearly a subject seems to be covered and understood by the reader there will be little nuances that you'll have to learn yourself by doing it. I've taught people to start a fire using a bow & drill in as little as 30 minutes. That wasn't just teaching a concept. They actually started the fire themselves using the two sticks and a string. Some of those people had tried many times after reading about it but until they had the little nuances down they were unsuccessful. They left KNOWING that they could start a fire that way. It wasn't just a theory . They _*could*_ do it.

Reading about something is usually the prerequisite to doing it. A person can read about driving on ice or snow and think they can do it *until *they find themselves in a broadside skid or fishtailing down the street. At that point it won't be as easy as they thought it was because a lot of things have entered into the equation that weren't relevant while they were sitting on their tush reading about how to handle such situations. Now they'll have to deal with the adrenaline rush and the time crunch and the fear factor if they're in the wrong lane and another vehicle is coming or the ditch or a tree is looming and a dozen other factors that weren't present when they "read" about it. That's why you practice because when the crunch comes you may not have time to do a lot of thinking. At that point it's time to react and you better not make a mistake. That's why you train and practice. It's just a prudent way to do things.

Can a person build a debris shelter after just reading about it? Probably could, on a nice day with about four hours to construct one and when they finish it, it might be waterproof and it might be warm. But what about when the same person is tired, cold, wet, hungry and afraid and it will be dark in 30 minutes and they're fighting panic or maybe injured?

It's harmful to gives others a false confidence in abilities they don't possess. It can get them or their loved ones killed!


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

_Can a person build a debris shelter after just reading about it? Probably could, on a nice day with about four hours to construct one and when they finish it, it might be waterproof and it might be warm. But what about when the same person is tired, cold, wet, hungry and afraid and it will be dark in 30 minutes and they're fighting panic or maybe injured? _

We discussed this one because it's been used.

In both the Marines and the Army, actually building one was one huge waste of time. Yeah, we had to make one that we would endure a winter night up in Mount Rainier in which is a good test and standard. All they did was explain the concept and let us get to it. They came by, said it was fantastic, and moved on and we moved in to a stout, dry comfortable shelter. Hardly training, hardly necessary. Unless a person isn't adaptable, actually building a debris shelter when it's not needed is a lot of busy work. UNLESS IT'S SIMPLY CONSIDERED A CONFIDENCE BUILDER EXERCISE, THEN IT'S STILL, WELL, TEDIOUS and it has some value for those who need to develop self confidence.

Now I can read that following an ice storm it's dangerous to be beneath trees because tree limbs get heavy, snap off and fall. I DON'T NEED TO ACTUALLY HAVE IT HAPPEN TO ME. There's huge amounts of things one can read. One doesn't need to be dying of thirst on the ocean as training to understand "Don't drink sea water!" Back when we could work on our cars, I certainly didn't need to practice, I pulled out the Chilton manual and got busy reading and doing it.

(Now I'd not recommend doing what the Great Imposter did, that man did emergency surgery on folks as he read the medical books and he turned out to be good at it! But some folks are amazing.)

But to paraphrase a quote from a wonderful movie:

_What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach, so you get what we had here last week, it took a frozen branch hitting him in the head, instead of him just reading that he ought to avoid such things. Well, he gets it now. And I don't like it any more than you men, but it's how some folks learn._

I maintain, do not let the fact you might not be able to actually do something hold you back. Read what you can learn what you can, watch related programs and learn what you can.

Other than shaking down one's gear, breaking in boots, and building endurance when I needed such things, despite having spent decades doing things manually and still experimenting, there's very few things in survivalism that had to actually be done and that couldn't be learned by some other means. Animal rearing, I thought that had to be one in person, but I just recently talked to a guy raising chickens and pigs very, very successfully and he told me he simply followed excellent books he got at the feed store! That amazed me! But this guy is an intelligent guy who carefully reads things. I don't think many could do that and I don't know if I could, but some can, so it's encouraging. (There's a neat fiction example: In the book Lucifer's Hammer, a foot locker of well selected books was critical. Many survivalists consider it a good idea to have a range of books on different subjects they haven't yet explored, but it's nice to have resources that can provide starting points if needed.)

Not too long ago, a child lost in the wilderness survived. He attributed watching those survival shows. Wasn't all that familiar with the wilderness before the incident. He certainly didn't need to practice what he learned, he had to do it!

*To other survivalists, ignore those who naysay about reading, reading is fantastic for some, their best means of learning, some programs are great for explaining and teaching, find out your best learning style. You might need to be one who must do everything to completion, you might be one who merely can hear how something is done, you might be one who can simply see how it's done, you might be one who uses all three, which is great. It's fun and fantastic when you can try something out physically, but we can also learn beyond what we physically do.

Don't be discourage by those who say you have to do things, have to suffer. Just because we can't practice some things doesn't mean we can't learn them. You know what sort of learner you are and hopefully your capabilities. There's incredible resources out there. By the same token, somethings are an absolute waste of time in preparedness, and they're time consuming. Buy some matches, lighters, a magnesium bar and firesteel and keep them on you.*


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

Don't misprepresent things. No one said there was anything wrong with reading and learning. It was only said that it's prudent to test that knowledge whenever possible. There are a lot of teachers out there who think they know things but don't.

Interesting remark about the television survivor shows. I know personally of one in which the producers showed some people magnetizing a needle for a compass by rubbing the needle on silk. Looked good on the screen but was total BS. The survival instructors featured on the show told the producers it was BS but the producers wanted it in there and the producers ruled the day. Seems one of the producers had "read" that it worked and wanted it in the show. The instructors pointed out in a forum that it did not work and the only reason it appeared to work on the show was because many needles are already magnetized. If the needle was not magnetized already, no amount of rubbing it on silk would make it so.

Whenever possible one should always test new ideas. Trust only those who have been proven trustworthy. Don't rely on luck.


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## truecarnage (Apr 25, 2010)

And what the hell is wrong with a magnesium flint block?


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

_And what the hell is wrong with a magnesium flint block?_

Not a single thing, they're great to have, and I started fires with them successfully, but some folks are numbnuts and can't figure them out. Great example was shown the first episode of Season Two of the Alaska Experiment. Despite being shown how to do it before needing to do so, and despite having spent hours working on it, one guy couldn't figure it out. Now no amount of practicing would help that person and he's definitely one that had to be taken step by step through anything.


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## Clarice (Aug 19, 2010)

Actions speak louder than words.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

truecarnage said:


> And what the hell is wrong with a magnesium flint block?


The only problem I've ever had with them was when it was windy. The shavings get blown around. Other than that? Nothing. I like mine.


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## HarleyRider (Mar 1, 2010)

Lots of good ways to make a fire. Throwin' a grenade into a wood pile will probably start a decent fire going.... pretty quick too and using very little effort on my part. 

I can make a fire using all of the previously mentioned methods, including using a home-built hand laser. 

Which method will I use when the SHTF? 

It depends on whatever I happen to have on hand at the time.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

You're absolutely right, SNT. There's all different kinds of people, and some will be more adaptable than others, whether they have preps or survivalism knowledge or not. Having knowledge gives them an edge.

Exellent observation.

I'm still not sure about this part though: "I'm talking about the sort of prepper who is doing poorly in this world, despite being given decent advantages who suddenly thinks that he's going to be a Warlord of the Aftermath and have slave girls fawning over him. He's going to take his Swapmeet Katana and destroy evil and impose his will."

Sounds like you've met or come across some, um..."interesting" people in the course of your life!


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## denniscarmichael (Nov 29, 2010)

You couldn't be more right. Except that your 10% is definitely too high. Of the ones who survived only 10% would be sane afterwards.


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