# Emergency heat to prevent pipes freezing in 100% electric house.



## SmugWaffle

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## TheLazyL

Suggestion #1. Buy a generator large enough to run the furnace (or baseboard wall heater) to keep the down stairs temperature above freezing. Open cabinet doors under the sinks to allow heat in. Raising heat thru the ceiling would prevent upstairs from freezing...

Suggestion #2. If your hot water heater is on the main floor/garage. Shut the water off to the house at the water utilities curb stop. Open the drain valve at the bottom of the hot water heater. Open all faucets in the house to let air into the cold and hot water lines. Flush the stool(s). Pour RV antifreeze in to all drains, toilet tank(s) (and flush again) and into the clothes washer (spin cycle to get antifreeze into the pump). Now the only water line that can still freeze is the water line in your garage (cover it with lots of insulation, blankets, warm bodies and etc. Or electric heat tape and a smaller generator).

Suggestion #3. If your hot water heater is not on the main floor/garage. Then plumb in a water valve in the garage and follow suggestion #2.

Suggestion #4. If codes and finances allow, install a wood pellet heating source.

Suggestion #5. Running water will not freeze. Open ALL faucets so a steady stream is running. Adjust the floats in the stool(s) so water doesn't shut off. Pipes will not freeze but you water bill (and sewer?) will jump up.


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## Caribou

Wood is an alternative but if you are planning to abandon the home that is a poor option. If you can find something like the old Earth Stove you might be able to visit twice a day. Then again you might just be able to stay at home. That pretty much leaves you with propane or oil. Which ever you decide make sure that you get a unit that is vented to the outside. Often these units are advertised to be used in a living area. They work just fine, until they don't. I've been on too many ambulance calls to ever rely on one of these stand alone units in an enclosed space.

I like the oil fired units and if you look around it is easy to find ones where the top of the casing lifts up and you have a hot surface you can cook on. I'm not talking about a griddle but a hot surface to boil water or to place a pot or pan on. The one drawback is that if you don't use it the oil will get old after a couple years. The life of the oil can be extended but the use of Sta-Bil or possibly even better PRI-D. Both these fuel life extenders have formulations specific to gasoline or diesel i.e. PRI-G is for gasoline.

The one advantage that I can see with propane is that the fuel can sit indefinitely without going bad. Since you will not have any electricity you might consider a fan with a sterling engine. This will help move the heat to other areas of the home. 

I always recommend redundant heating systems to my customers. At least one of them should not require electricity. 

Another option out there is a pellet stove. While I have not seen it yet I understand that there is a windup pellet feeder. Another option would be to keep an inverter and a charged battery available. Do not keep your store of pellets in an attached garage. It is best to store pellets in a separate outbuilding. Wood pellets give off CO, particularly in warm weather, and could create a health hazard. The few that you might keep stored in the appliance should not be a problem but that ton or more in storage could be.


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## cowboyhermit

Good answers so far, probably the safest way if the home is to be left for any length of time (or if you can do without modern plumbing for awhile) is to drain/antifreeze your lines. RV antifreeze is pretty cheap and will certainly work for the traps by just pouring some down the drain. For a complete solution you can use an RV pump or a cheap drill pump to run the antifreeze through your lines. If you empty toilets first, and of course drain the hot water heater it shouldn't be too costly to have enough on hand. You simply connect it to the cold water first and run all fixtures, then connect it past the hot water heater and do the same.

For standby emergency heat it sounds like propane will be your best bet, a small catalytic unit or two should do the trick safely.


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## readytogo

Had many water pipe problems while living in a mobile home many years ago so draining the lines is primary you don`t want broken water pipes. If a air compressor is at hand used it at the farthest water outlet and clear the lines by opening all the outlets especially the outside ones; or use a portable air tank,PEX tubing may be ok but the connectors are probably the weak link in the system. If you lose power your next heating option will be propane,ventless heaters have been around now for some time and you can localize one for one area only, at least you will sleep warm or portable. Closing one area of the house is a good idea, plastic sheets works great with painters tape, but you most remember that any portable heat device needs oxygen, so a propane wall mounted heater is best, some can be mounted like window air conditions for winter used only with a propane tank and line on the outside to heat up one room.
Just be safe and never leave a open flame un-attended .


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## Country Living

Occam's Razor: drip your faucets.


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## NaeKid

mike_dippert said:


> I live in a large subdivision in a 100% electric home. I wasn't thrilled, but the cost cost to run gas was astronomical. With the threat of a harsh winter looming, I'm thinking of emergency heat options.
> My Inlaws heat exclusively with wood so we would probably stay with them during a power outage. I'm thinking more of preventing property damage from freezing pipes. 99% of the lines are in interior walls. The only exterior feed on the first floor is for the fridge. The lines are also PEX tubing and burst proof since they can safely double in diameter and return to normal. All the connectors (T's and elbows) are the normal PVC type, and susceptible to freezing though.


What area of the world do you live in? Are you in an area like Alberta / Saskatchewan where temperatures reach below -40° for days or weeks at a time or are you in an area like Vancouver where temperatures reach 32°F (0°C) and hold around there for days or weeks at a time and it doesn't reach deep-freeze level temperatures?

Depending on your average weather patterns, you might just be fine with the ground-heat that naturally comes through the basement (I assume you have a full basement that reaches below the frost-line).


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## BillM

Any 100% electrically heated home, should have a redundant means of heating that is non-dependent on electricity.

Ice storms can cause extended outages. You don't have to wait for the end of the world !


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## NaeKid

When I had a water-leak in my house, I turned off the water-main valve and then went to the furthest point from the water-main and opened that water valve and let the pressure drain-off. I left that valve open so that air could get in, then I opened a couple more valves through the house (kitchen sink, bathroom sink, etc) just for good measure.

Then I went back down to the main itself and there is another drain-valve at that point, I grabbed a large 5-gallon bucket, put a garden hose into it and the other end was on the drain-valve and opened 'er up and let all the water gravity-feed down to the bucket ... 

At that point the water lines were about as drained as they could be and I could replace the leaking sections.

Now, because your weather-patterns may reach around freezing, but, doesn't hold there for long, I would hazzard a guess that the water lines would not be a problem as long as you stay near home and use the water regularly (flushing, washing, etc).

I would be more concerned with keeping warm, and, would suggest setting up a "camp" inside the house - sleep in a tent in a sleeping-bag and make a fun game out of it for the kiddlettes ...


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## Caribou

As readytogo mentioned you can run a temporary exhaust through a window by building a panel to fit in the opening of you window. An outside exhaust is far safer. Your stand alone or catalytic heaters will burn clean enough till they burn up some of the oxygen in the room then they start to produce CO. Without an excellent source of fresh air I personally wouldn't try a stand alone heater.

I wouldn't worry too much about freezing below ground level in the conditions that you describe. If you decide to drain your pipes I would find or install a drain as close to the floor level as possible and use compressed air to purge the lines.


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## UncleJoe

mike_dippert said:


> How much antifreeze does it take to flush a trap? I assume a pint should be enough to dilute it, based on vehicle mixes.


I use RV anti-freeze at our camp. I first drain as much water as I can from the system then pour A-F directly into the 2 sinks, tub and toilet. I also leave all the faucets open to allow room for any remaining water to expand.


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## cowboyhermit

RV antifreeze goes on sale for just a few bucks a gallon, it is not supposed to be diluted like vehicle antifreeze, but then again you aren't needing -50 protection either. I always applied generously but it is really cold up here


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## txcatlady

We are all electric with gas stove/oven. All our plumbing is in the floor with insulation and 3 layers wood and 3 foot off the ground. The only issue we had was the exposed traps freezing! showers and washing machine. Granted we don't have long periods of freezing weather. Whenever it is going to be 28 for more than 6 hours, I pour 1/2 cup rubbing alcohol into drains. We do leave water in kitchen and bathrooms on a slow drip. It has worked well for the past 3 years. Some people put antifreeze in, but I was concerned about septic. We are on community water so I do pay for it. After traps freezing one winter, and I flooded the house washing clothes, I decided the alcohol was cheap!


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## cnsper

Geeze people, the outside hose bib is normally the lowest point in any house unless there is a basement. Open the faucet and then open all the other faucets to allow air in so it all drains out. If all you are trying to do is keep it around 40 then a MrBuddy heater will do the trick. I would also set ANY heater on some patio or similar type brick(s) so that the area is large enough to catch the heater and hold it off the floor/carpet should it tip over for some ungodly reason (like forgetting the cat at home).


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## cowboyhermit

In my experience unless a house was expressly designed to have the pipes drained, ie; intelligently designed cabin at the lake, then draining is not going to be very effective. There are just too many low spots and ups and downs in the typical home. Non-toxic rv antifreeze is safe for septic systems. Many traps have drains on them but that is not a fun thing, and then you have to wonder about gas seepage, easier to just dump some down the drain imo.


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## LincTex

A very small propane heater running off of a very large tank would keep things just warm enough.



mike_dippert said:


> I'm planning to self-install in-ground sprinklers next spring/summer. When I do that, I'll definitely make sure I have a main line drain for the house, .... 2 feet under the slab


This is really the best bet. Shut off at the meter, open all faucets and water heater, flush toilets then come outside to where your drain is an suck the rest of the piping dry. get a small utility pump to do this task.



mike_dippert said:


> I just remembered I have a 1500w radiator style heater. I think I'll just get a 2kW genny and run an extension cord from the garage. That seems safer than burning anything inside the house.


I would not depend on it. They are designed to be operated when someone is there to monitor it. Leaving a generator alone is really bad ju-ju and is way more dangerous than a small propane heater!


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## LincTex

mike_dippert said:


> Doesn't help me this year though, oh well. Gotta start somewhere.


In an emergency, shut off the water at the meter. 
Walk a couple feet towards the house and start digging. 
When you see the water line, cut it and let it drain.


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## TheLazyL

mike_dippert said:


> Just need to miss the neighbor's line since we share a meter access hole, thing. Haha, that would be an unfortunate conversation.


BINGO! Why didn't you say so earlier?  that's your lowest point!

Turn the water off at the water meter. Loosen the union on your side of the meter to let the water drain out.


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## LincTex

mike_dippert said:


> Orly? I would've thought Honda or Briggs would have their ducks in a row as far as failsafes. Obviously I don't know mich about generators.


Hmmm..... I have seen cracked fuel lines leak gas all over the place (no fire though, but it could) because rubber and plastic just ain't what it used to be 

I have seen the whole unit slowly vibrate across a smooth slab - right into something it should NOT be running up against! 

Generators need to be loaded and unloaded while running at speed. When a genny starts to do it's "blurp - blurp - blurrrrrp" as it is running out of gas, the voltage regulator usually tries to get the voltage back up where it needs to be, and this occurrence can fry it as the the rpm's are dropping off. :factor10:

Exhaust is noise, heat, and smell. All of these attract curious folks... some just to see what is going on, and some to come and take whatever is running! Also, if NO ONE else has power, a running generator is a loudspeaker that says (very loudly) "Something is going on over here, come over and see what it is!!"

I'll also bet you don't have place to run your cord between the garage and the inside of the house. If you leave the door cracked to get the cord through, now your door is unlocked.

If you want a super-mega-quiet generator, you can get one of the little Honda inverter generators, or an older RV/Motorhome generator.


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## TheLazyL

mike_dippert said:


> It's common knowledge everyone every where has municiple water .
> 
> Suppose I should get familiar with what's in that hole so it's easier to do in January laying on a foot of snow.


Just me sure to put the lid back on and recover with snow. That will trap the ground heat in the meter pit and keep the meter from freezing.

In my neck of the woods water meters are located in the basements.


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## Tirediron

I think the safest method would be to build a siphon loop glycol heater with 2 (for redundancy) propane RV hot water heaters, the heaters could be outside in a small doghouse enclosure with insulated lines entering the house to feed 2 radiant heat exchangers and loop tanks. if this sound interesting, I can go into greater detail.


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## Marcus

I recall someone in Wisconsin makes a PVC attachment for your outside faucets that cause a slow, steady water drip. I wasn't able to find it on Google, but I had the same idea years ago. Since someone already makes one, I dropped the idea. If I recall correctly, the attachment protected the faucet down to -40.


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## BillM

*Running Water*



Marcus said:


> I recall someone in Wisconsin makes a PVC attachment for your outside faucets that cause a slow, steady water drip. I wasn't able to find it on Google, but I had the same idea years ago. Since someone already makes one, I dropped the idea. If I recall correctly, the attachment protected the faucet down to -40.


The admonition that allowing water to trickle or drip from an exposed faucet will prevent it from freezing, is a myth .

Just ask anyone skating on a frozen river !

Get a source of heat or heavily insulate your pipes.

All the water will not drain from your pipes when you shut off the water and open the faucets. Where it pools in pipes, it will freeze and burst the pipes.

This only works where all the pipes are purposely installed with total drainage intended.

You will also have to put some antifreeze in the drains to prevent the traps from freezing .


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## roselle

*I sent you a PM about this...*



BillM said:


> The admonition that allowing water to trickle or drip from an exposed faucet will prevent it from freezing, is a myth .
> 
> Just ask anyone skating on a frozen river !
> 
> Get a source of heat or heavily insulate your pipes.
> 
> All the water will not drain from your pipes when you shut off the water and open the faucets. Where it pools in pipes, it will freeze and burst the pipes.
> 
> This only works where all the pipes are purposely installed with total drainage intended.
> 
> You will also have to put some antifreeze in the drains to prevent the traps from freezing .


I sent you a PM about this...


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## LincTex

BillM said:


> The admonition that allowing water to trickle or drip from an exposed faucet will prevent it from freezing, is a myth .


It assumes the very cold water is being replaced by something just a couple degrees warmer. You can usually achieve that by water mains coming in underground, below the frost line. If the temperature differential isn't great enough, the flow rate MUST increase, though!

If this was a hot water faucet, a very slow drip would be fine... but if it's a pasture tap 500 feet from the barn and the water line is right at the frost line (or just into it) then a slow drip will likely NOT be enough.

The reason the river froze over is because there was NO temperature differential - the water was all very cold. Only the stuff closest to the ground will stay liquid because it gets heat from the ground up.


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## hiwall

An interesting tidbit of information - Non-toxic rv antifreeze freezes solid. When I lived in the frozen northland of Minnesota shipments of RV AF would be frozen when it arrived. The first time I called the company but they said it is only made not to expand but will freeze. Calling it anti freeze is false advertising.


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## LincTex

hiwall said:


> The first time I called the company but they said it is only made not to expand but will freeze..


That IS interesting! 
I guess as long as it doesn't expand, that is all it needs to do. 
No expansion = no burst pipes!


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## cowboyhermit

That's true about the RV antifreeze, it even says on some bottles now. It essentially forms little crystals that don't cause problems. There are different formulas as well.

With the dripping pipes LincTex has it right the problem comes in with the "dripping", what does that mean exactly? Water has a huge amount of latent heat and when ice crystals form it releases a considerable amount of heat. 100 feet of garden hose left running in -40 at full pressure should not freeze but turn it down to a trickle or shut it off for a second and game over. My biggest problem with leaving water running is the potential damage, scary stuff imo.


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## Caribou

With any antifreeze there is a freeze point and a burst point. When your treated water, P-trap, boiler, etc, gets below the freeze point it turns into slush, then it freezes then it reaches the burst point. The gaol with antifreeze depends on the application. In a boiler system or in a car you want the fluid to remain liquid because the circulator or pump does not have enough power to push slush. In a P-trap or motorhome water system your primary goal is to protect the pipes from rupture. 

At 32*F water can be either liquid or solid. This is the point at which water has the least volume. Heat water and it expands. Chill water below 32*F and it expands. Antifreeze can not stop this. What anti freeze can do is to shift the temperature range downward. The action of antifreeze is similar to jello excel in reverse. Add your jello to water put it in the fridge and it turns to a semisolid. Take the jello out of the fridge and heat it on the stove and it turns back into a liquid.

This is why I run Pex whenever I can. If anyone is interested in the different types of Pex I would be happy to make another post. It might be a pain to be without water but not nearly the pain that it is to be without water, then have a flood, then replace your pipes.


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## LincTex

Caribou said:


> At 32*F water can be either liquid or solid. Chill water below 32*F and it expands.


Off topic: yes and no. 
32*F is where ice melts, no matter what. Water can exist in liquid form down to temperatures far below 32*F.

Distilled water that is free from minerals has no nucleation sites for crystallization. 
It can get very cold before it freezes... sometimes as low at -55*F!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercooling

http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistryhowtoguide/a/how-to-supercool-water.htm


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## Dakine

hiwall said:


> An interesting tidbit of information - Non-toxic rv antifreeze freezes solid. When I lived in the frozen northland of Minnesota shipments of RV AF would be frozen when it arrived. The first time I called the company but they said it is only made not to expand but will freeze. Calling it anti freeze is false advertising.


I dont think so... because their claim is based on the system being under pressure, right? and the boiling point of water, or any other liquid is subject to change based on elevation and pressure.


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## Marcus

cowboyhermit said:


> With the dripping pipes LincTex has it right the problem comes in with the "dripping", what does that mean exactly? Water has a huge amount of latent heat and when ice crystals form it releases a considerable amount of heat. 100 feet of garden hose left running in -40 at full pressure should not freeze but turn it down to a trickle or shut it off for a second and game over. My biggest problem with leaving water running is the potential damage, scary stuff imo.


The phase change (liquid to solid) requires a lot of heat to be given off:









One drop is roughly 1/20 of a ml so it must give off ~4 calories to freeze. The temperature differential between the outside air and the water dictates whether the water will freeze before it exits the faucet. A faster flow rate will provide protection to a lower temperature.

Another way to protect pipes is heat tracing wire.
http://www.urecon.com/applications/municipal_tracing.html
You can either use a simple thermal switch or an electronic control system. But if you lose power, you lose your protection.

If you're planning on leaving your house every winter, I'd suggest finding a more permanent solution perhaps using some sort of passive solar heating to keep the interior temperature above freezing.


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## hiwall

Dakine said:


> I dont think so... because their claim is based on the system being under pressure, right? and the boiling point of water, or any other liquid is subject to change based on elevation and pressure.


You don't think I see many pink ice cubes? Whatever.
What does the boiling point have to do with it freezing?
Their claim based on being under pressure? I can not think of where you would be ever using RV anti freeze in a system that was under pressure. :scratch


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## Grape Ape

OP, you say that 99% of your pipes are in interior walls, and the only one that is an issue and on an outside wall is the one for the fridge (I am assuming ice maker in fridge water). When the power goes out and you have to move to inlaws. Turn the water off, open the taps so they are not under pressure and then go to the spot where the fridge is getting it's water (under the kitchen sink or other t-tap into an existing line) and disconnect it and if available close the valve providing the water for the fridge. Then let the water drain back out of the line you just disconnected. If you do this and you have PEX throughout the rest of the house you will be safe. Any water remaining in the lines that does freeze will have a lot of space to expand first in the PEX and second by the fact that you released all the pressure off of the system. Even water in the PVC connections will be ok because it will be able to expand out into the PEX. The line to the fridge is empty so no issue there. Now you can sleep at night and not worry about coming home to an ice castle for a home.

When the power comes back on and you are able to return home. crank the heat up full blast and get the house good and warm. Allow time for any frozen lines to thaw, so you are not putting pressure on them in an iced condition. Re attach the fridge hose. Turn the water on and enjoy your home until the next outage.


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## LincTex

17*F in Texas right now, got down to 12*F last night... supposed to hit 12*F again tonight. 

Gonna be a whole lotta people with "dripping taps" going to find out that the drip wasn't enough to stop the hard freeze...


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## TheLazyL

Only -10 (F) here, this morning....


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## LincTex

TheLazyL said:


> Only -10 (F) here, this morning....


I think that would shut this part of Texas DOWN!!!


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## LincTex

mike_dippert said:


> Oh and I haven't lost power yet. Woohoo. My poor electric meter is gonna burn up it's bearings though.


Don't worry, they'll replace it with a smart meter. Yay....

Ours is pulling some amps, it isn't often it gets into the teens here. The wood stove all by itself just isn't large enough to do the whole house unless we dis-used some rooms and crammed the kids into fewer spaces, but the wife isn't keen on the idea.

Come emergency time that's exactly what we would be doing, though.


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## TheLazyL

12" of snow yesterday, country roads are open to 1 1/2 lanes. Sate road open from berm to berm. No wind equals no drifting. -19 (F) this morning. 

I got my Arizona retirement literature out to dream.


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## cantseeme

what about a small space heater that runs off of a battery backup system?


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## PrepN4Good

LincTex said:


> Gonna be a whole lotta people with "dripping taps" going to find out that the drip wasn't enough to stop the hard freeze...


You got that right!!! A couple times this winter it's gotten into the single digits where we are in NC...even with a good stream of water (not a drip), our pipes froze every time.


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## LincTex

cantseeme said:


> what about a small space heater that runs off of a battery backup system?


Do the math, dude.

Volts x amps = watts, then subtract for efficiency losses.

You will find you need a bank of batteries the size of your living room to keep "a small space heater that runs off of a battery backup system" alive for anything more than an hour or two, tops.

Electric heater tape wrapped around the pipes (and then insulation over that) would be a tiny bit better.


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## LincTex

PrepN4Good said:


> You got that right!!! A couple times this winter it's gotten into the single digits where we are in NC...*Even with a good stream of water (not a drip), our pipes froze every time*.


Sorry for your pipes! 
Yes, it is amazing how powerful the cold can be!


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## BillM

*OK now*

OK, now that everyone has some real life experience, I will state again that in extreme cold temperatures , such as most of the nation has experienced, you need some heat and insulation to prevent your water lines from freezing.

Letting the water run a small stream won't prevent the freezing of your pipes.

PEX is an excellent product and will prevent damage to the water lines but not the freezing of them.

Heat tape and insulation will prevent the freezing of your lines.

I was an HVAC engineer for thirty plus years and I teach HVAC at a trade school now part time. I would not give advise in an area that I was not competent in.


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## PrepN4Good

BillM said:


> Heat tape and insulation will prevent the freezing of your lines.


That is on the list for this summer...I don't want to go thru this again!!


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## Iafrate

First thing, insulate your pipes, disconnect hoses


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