# Advanced/Extensive First Aid Kit?



## jbillh (Mar 4, 2011)

Hi Folks,

A good friend of mine (and a fellow prepper) asked me where he could find a really complete first aid kit. He wants one with sutures, needles, antibiotics etc. All the stuff you would need if you were really on your own and had to DIY it.

Do any of you know of such a kit?

Thanks,

Bill


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## drhwest (Aug 7, 2009)

Anything that is pre-made will cost you an arm and a leg. I suggest he put one together from scratch, maybe in a large toolbox or backpack. There are plenty of sources out there where you can pick up supplies that will meet your personal needs and save you a lot of money in the long run. If he has the time and inclination it is worth a try. There many medical supply companies out there. Here are a couple companies that sell relatively cheap medical supplies;

Medwork Instruments - discount medical instruments - reflex percussors

http://www.chinookmed.com/

If your looking for antibiotics you can either ask your personal physician and hope they understand your need for such preparations or look into veterinary antibiotics. I have my parents buy mine when they pick up their medications in Mexico. There is some debate regarding the effectiveness of vet antibiotics, but I have read more than one post from a supposed doctor that claims the medications are marked exactly the same as the drugs labeled for human use.

Tablet & Capsule Antibiotics

http://www.lambertvetsupply.com/Antibiotics-Non-Prescription.php

I also found this site to be very helpful.

Armageddon Medicine - How to be your own doctor in 2012 and beyond

I hope this helps.

Carl


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## petedewd (Jun 23, 2011)

Unless you have a trained physician or midlevel using them sutures are probably a bad idea in most cases. 

If it can't be closed with butterfly strips it's probably something that has to be thoroughly cleaned and debrided to prevent infection, etc. Deep tissue suturing may be required - do you know what you are looking at? Do you have enough of the right type of suture, attached to the right needle? Do you know how to tie suture knots so that they don't loosen? If you tie them to tight the skin underneath may die. And so on. Even a staple gun requires practice.

just my two cents


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## stayingthegame (Mar 22, 2011)

my dh has studied some civil war medicine. some interesting things came out. The south used boiled horse hair (the tail) for sutures while the south used silk. guess who had the better outcome?


the south. the north did boil the silk thread. boiling will sterilize. many other interesting we have found out, even how to make chloroform. we are doing additional studies on this old medicine ways.


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## Nexquietus (Jun 29, 2011)

Some scary things happen when you start thinking about doing upper level medical stuff. I am a nurse, and I am not prepping most of the higher level things. I am thinking things will eventually go low tech anyways. Think about how much success Florence Nightingale had. Yeah it was the middle 1800's, but if the S hits the F then that'll be the average level of tech for most folks. Keeping things clean (which was one of her most important changes to health care) will be huge. 

The fact that no one wants to admit is that if all access to even moderate care is removed, lots of folks will die of stupid crap. Stuff that right now we hammer with meds and goes away. The strong will survive and, well, the weak won't. 

So, for a go-it-alone med kit, there isn't such thing as you are talking that I have ever seen, if only for legal reasons. Buy the nicest EMT kit you can find and then stock 5 times what you think you need of the included bandages, tape and triple-antibiotic ointment (provided there are no allergies). I say EMT kit vs Paramedic kit mainly because there is a lot that Medics are allowed to do that EMTs cannot, and I think that with most folks level of training the EMT kit won't equip you INTO trouble if you catch my intention. 

Just my .02
jim


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## petedewd (Jun 23, 2011)

Nexquietus said:


> Some scary things happen when you start thinking about doing upper level medical stuff. I am a nurse, and I am not prepping most of the higher level things. I am thinking things will eventually go low tech anyways. Think about how much success Florence Nightingale had. Yeah it was the middle 1800's, but if the S hits the F then that'll be the average level of tech for most folks. Keeping things clean (which was one of her most important changes to health care) will be huge.
> 
> The fact that no one wants to admit is that if all access to even moderate care is removed, lots of folks will die of stupid crap. Stuff that right now we hammer with meds and goes away. The strong will survive and, well, the weak won't.
> 
> ...


I totally agree. nice post.


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## Hazwhopper51 (May 1, 2011)

Hi,
I went to a Big Gun Show that comes into our area @ 3 months. There is always a table that has Sutures, scalpels and other items. I bought 10 scalpels (throw away) for 10.00 and bought some sutures for DIY jobs. The Lidocaine and Lidocaine w/ ephiphrine I got through other means. Like a person who posted, I bought at Wal-mart some back packs and filled them with everything I need. I have stocked up on some of the antibotics for future. You can go to Gall's and they sell med supplies too. They sell to Police and F.R. 
But I do suggest you take some training. I have done F. R. for 14 yrs. I am just a rookie still. Believe it or not, a AED would be helpful. They are coming down in price. They are the most helpful thing that anyone can do. The cost are still about 1000 to 1500.00. They are not cheap, but not everyone needs one. The batteries last about 5 years. The pads are not reuseable, so get an extra set if possible.
Good Luck.


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## jbillh (Mar 4, 2011)

*Thanks!*

Hi Folks,

Thanks for the insights and information!

Yeah, I tend to agree that you might do "more harm than good" when you start doing your own "doctorin'" but if the "end as we know it" were to happen, that may be your only recourse.

Besides that... my daughter is an RN and we've got some other seasoned healthcare pros in our midst as well.

I'm pretty sure with proper cleaning and a sewing kit and such, we could take care of a lot of injuries on our own. As a last resort of course.

God Bless You All!

Bill :2thumb:


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## petedewd (Jun 23, 2011)

Hazwhopper51 said:


> Hi,
> Believe it or not, a AED would be helpful..
> Good Luck.


People who survive because of an AED need a hospital. Unless they died from choking or drowning or an airway issue that has resolved they may die again soon without serious medical attention. I'm not sure this one should go on anyone's must have list.


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## jumper13 (Aug 13, 2011)

*Advanced Medical Kit for preppers*

A new company based in Alaska has just hit the market with a very advanced medical kit available to the public. This might be exactly what you are looking for.

Their kit comes with an advanced trauma package including hemmorhage control, wound closure supplies, a dental kit, and numerous prescription medications (including antibiotics) for infections, GI problems, cold and flu, etc. This is the best medical kit I've ever seen and would be excellent for a family when access to high-quality health care is not possible. Their website offers many additional add-on items such as IV supplies, suture kits, catheter sets, etc. The kit comes with a one-year membership in their telemedicine program, which gives members unlimited phone consults with a board-certified US-based emergency physician for urgent medical issues at no additional charge. I've never found anything else like it on the market. I have two of their kits and am very pleased. Visit their website at Medcallassist.com


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## fedorthedog (Apr 14, 2011)

You can find a sealed surgical/medical kit on line. These are made for people going to third world countries that reuse supplies. The have syringes sutures scalpel ect.


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## 101airborne (Jan 29, 2010)

fedorthedog said:


> You can find a sealed surgical/medical kit on line. These are made for people going to third world countries that reuse supplies. The have syringes sutures scalpel ect.


Yeah these are pretty cool sets. Along with the above items they also contain the needle and such for an I.V. I bought two at my local "survival store" for $20 each. I plan on adding a couple more soon.


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## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

In addition to gathering supplies, I think it's important to try to get as much training as possible. Some local community colleges offer EMT courses for a fairly reasonable price. I'm not under any illusions that I can self educate to the level of MD, but I think if you're committed to being as prepared as you possibly can be, you could prove to be a very effective 'doctor' for your family. When TSHTF prevention will be key to survival. Prevent as many injuries as you possibly can with safety equipment and proactive health measures. If you are in a group, you should have one person in charge of safety measures/planning.


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## DKRinAK (Nov 21, 2011)

lazydaisy67 said:


> In addition to gathering supplies, I think it's important to try to get as much training as possible. Some local community colleges offer EMT courses for a fairly reasonable price. I'm not under any illusions that I can self educate to the level of MD, but I think if you're committed to being as prepared as you possibly can be, you could prove to be a very effective 'doctor' for your family. When TSHTF prevention will be key to survival. Prevent as many injuries as you possibly can with safety equipment and proactive health measures. If you are in a group, you should have one person in charge of safety measures/planning.


If I may piggyback on your post - having just one person trained in first aid/health care is unwise planning, at best.

The classes taught at local Community Colleges have recently changed or will change due to recent changes in how EMTs are certified and licensed at a National level.

IF you are looking for a class that fits your needs, a call to the State licensing agency will provide a list of institutions that provide advanced training.

Everyone should have basic first aid training (ARC) and consider periodic re-training/re-certification on that training. Everyone should carry a Individual FAk and understand how to provide basic aid. As others have noted, if an issue is handled early, complications may be prevented.

As others have said, training is the first thing that should go into any first aid kit.


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## OHprepper (Feb 21, 2012)

I am also worried about my aid bag. My bag (and everything in it) were older items pieced together through classes in the service. So, my kit is based entirely around trauma, and gunshot type injuries. I have nothing for any real infection/ illness, and have no idea how to get antibiotics. I haven't thought to much about how to obtain the necessary drugs, because I don't have any real idea of the shelf life of antibiotics. Anyone more knowledgeable have ideas? I am aware of some edible/medicinal plants, but again if TSHTF I would like something there when I need it.


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## DKRinAK (Nov 21, 2011)

*A plant guide*



OHprepper said:


> I am also worried about my aid bag. My bag (and everything in it) were older items pieced together through classes in the service. So, my kit is based entirely around trauma, and gunshot type injuries. I have nothing for any real infection/ illness, and have no idea how to get antibiotics. I haven't thought to much about how to obtain the necessary drugs, because I don't have any real idea of the shelf life of antibiotics. Anyone more knowledgeable have ideas? I am aware of some edible/medicinal plants, but again if TSHTF I would like something there when I need it.


The site - Of the Field (https://ofthefield.com/resources/) offers several well done plant guides. Might be worth your time to check it out and see what they have.

For you aid kit, the Hesperian Foundation (http://hesperian.org/books-and-resources/) has books on line in PDF format that you may find useful - Where There is No Doctor is one of the better known publications.

There is no charge for the downloads, they accept donations and paper versions are for sale as well.


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## OHprepper (Feb 21, 2012)

thank you. i will look that up.


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## PamsPride (Dec 21, 2010)

I was wandering around on Amazon and found this kit: Fully Stocked First Aid EMT First Responder Trauma Medic Bag 

Items included in this kit:
(1) Fluorescent Orange Bag with padded inner divider, multiple pockets, and shoulder strap
(1) Blood Pressure Cuff (Regular Adult Size)
(1) Stethoscope
(20) Pairs of Powder Free Kimberly Clark Sterling Nitrile Gloves, Large
(1) First Aid Guide Book
(1) Adult Cervical Collar
(1) Pen Light
(1) Pair Trauma Shears
(2) Stainless Steel Hemostats
(1) Pair of Tweezers
(1) #3 Scalpel Handle
(2) Scalpel Blades
(2) Suture Sets
(6) Safety Pins
(5) Tongue Depressors
(1) CPR Mask
(1) Tourniquet
(1) SAM/Universal Padded Aluminum Splint
(2) Emergency Foil Blankets, 52" x 84"
(2) Adult Oral Airways
(5) Ammonia Inhalants
(1) Tube Instant Glucose
(1) Bottle Eye Wash Solution
(1) Bar Hand Soap
(1) Bottle Hand Sanitizer Gel
(4) Instant Ice Packs
(215) 2"x2" Sterile Sponges (15 are prepackaged in your bag, 200 extra are included for re-stocking)
(60) 4"x4" Sterile Sponges (8 are prepackaged in your bag, 52 extra are included for re-stocking)
(6) Abdominal Pads, 5"x9"
(1) Multi-Trauma Dressing, 12"x30"
(2) Bleed Stop Bandages
(1) Triangular Bandage, 40"x40"x56"
(5) Eye Pads
(2) Rolls Adhesive Tape
(1) Roll 6" Adhesive Tape
(15) Knuckle Bandages
(15) Bandage Strips, 2"x3"
(32) Bandage Strips, 1"x3"
(5) Butterfly Strips
(45) Antiseptic BZK Wipes
(6) After Bite/Sting Wipes
(5) Burn Relief Gel Packages
(10) Triple Antibiotic Packages
(20) Pain Relievers

I am pretty sure you can only get antibiotics with a prescription. You might be able to find the needles you want at TSC. I would also throw in some regular feminine pads for soaking up blood or to put on a larger wound.


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## jbillh (Mar 4, 2011)

*Thanks!*

Thanks PamsPride!

This is just the kind of thing I was looking for.

Thanks for the great help!

All the Best,

Bill


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## PFCHAWK (Jun 16, 2012)

Being in the medical field myself I would just like to add look for, quick clot. Its a bandage that has a powder in it that clots the blood/open wound. Their are other ones it harder ti get for civilians but our military uses them. The powder reacts to the blood and heats up to a really high temp, it pretty much carderizes( I know I did not spell this right) the wound. They come in different sizes. Just wanted to throw this out their.


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## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

So instead of stitching what about a stapler? Most of the time they use staples anyway so where can I get one? Does anyone know?


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## citygirl85 (Apr 26, 2012)

mojo4 said:


> So instead of stitching what about a stapler? Most of the time they use staples anyway so where can I get one? Does anyone know?


Amazon.com has them for like $7 or so...


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## SARSpecialist (May 31, 2012)

Keep in mind that sutures, staple guns, Meds, needles, and a host of other items have expiration dates.. are you willing to keep buying those items year after year or ever 2 years.. now common sense says we all know that a item does not cease to be useful on the expire date BUT items 5 years out of date or longer when SHTF will not perform or may fail you in a crisis. I would suggest that you make a list of EVERY THING in your bag and every quarter ( 3 months) check it to make sure its operational. 

Set a goal on the level of training you want to accomplish, get that level of training and set up your equipment based on that. EMT would be great.. but EMTs in some states can not do things that other states may allow and ALL EMTs are governed by Medical Protocols that describe the level of care you can provide. 

Skills and training all have a level of expiration, if you don’t use it you will loose it, and advanced skills such as sutures, IVs ,Chest Decompression, and a host of others must be reviewed and refreshed on a frequent basis as the skills change based on medical science and best practices, what works today may be old medicine this time next year.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

PFCHAWK said:


> The powder reacts to the blood and heats up to a really high temp, it pretty much carderizes( I know I did not spell this right) the wound. They come in different sizes. Just wanted to throw this out their.


No Quikclot does not cauterize a wound. Over heating was in fact one of the problems first encountered with hemostatic agents. As improper application could cause secondary burn injury, sometimes in the eyes of the care giver. It is a perfect example of how improper uninformed use of medical equipment and how they work causes more problems and needlessly endangered lives. Thinking that the hemostatic agents was supposed to cauterize the wounds resulted in severely injured patients with serious penetrating wounds having their injury compounded by sever burns. Increasing the damage and further endangering lives.

That problem as since been over come. Quikclot and Celox are the two most commonly used hemostatic agents each using a different chemical to speed coagulation & rapidly stop blood loss. Both are available in a variety of applications sponges, gauze and powders. Some forms will stop arterial blood loss.

Knowledge and experience far outweigh equipment in importance . Something like a 
STOMP MEDIC BAG from CheaperThanDirt is a great starting point for equipment. It is a intelligently designed quality pack for in the field medical care



> The Backpack is a STOMP bag; Measures 20" tall 13" across, 11" wide. Outside flap has two netted, zippered flat pockets. The next flap has several elastic stays, one large zippered pocket and four medium open pouches. The next flap has a zippered pocket and a netted flat pocket with two zippered openings, several small pockets and elastic keepers.
> The last flap has two pockets containing (2) color-coded mini packs. Pouches for two HydraStorm Hydration Systems External Features:
> Adjustable shoulder straps, web belt, sternum strap. Paracord drop pouches so you can dangle the pack below your parachute and let it hit first. Two grab handles are attached to the outside flaps for picking up in a hurry. They also double as drag handles. Hook & loop strip located on the back panel for attaching marker panels and other items. Inside panel is padded with closed cell foam.
> 
> ...


But it is imperative that your review the items and know you have the knowledge and skill to use them properly. Than add those items/tools that you have experience and knowledge with that are lacking. There is no reason to carry sutures, Intubation kits, oxygen tanks or IV lines if you do not know how, and when to use them. Doing so may cause far more harm than good. For the first responder, skills and knowledge far outweigh equipment in importance. That you are asking what supplies you need for a medic pack indicates that maybe your focus is misdirected. Get training, than you will know what tools you will need.


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## jumper13 (Aug 13, 2011)

Posted by LongRider: "Quikclot and Celox are the two most commonly used hemostatic agents each using a different chemical to speed coagulation & rapidly stop blood loss. Both are available in a variety of applications sponges, gauze and powders. Some forms will stop arterial blood loss." 

LongRider, you gave a very good post. However, in the choice between Quik-clot and Celox for post-SHTF hemorrhage control, I would definitely go with Celox. Quikclot
does stop major bleeding, but it is still a clay-based product and must be completely removed from the wound (debrided) before the wound can heal. In the field, this would cause the wound to start bleeding again, and it would be all but impossible to get all the QuikClot particles out. This is usually done in the OR, so unless you have access to a hospital, Celox is a much better product. Celox forms a gel-like plug in the wound, and it has been proven to stop a femoral artery tear. The best part about Celox is that is DOES NOT have to be removed for the wound to heal--the plug will absorb into the body over time, and the wound will heal around it. Celox is available over-the-counter in several forms, like granule packets and gauze, and you can probably find it on amazon. However, Celox-A is the best version hands down, but it requires a scrip. Celox-A is in a syrringe form that can be inserted deep into a wound (like a gunshot) and then injected directly onto the hemorrhaging vessel. FYI...the military is now using Celox-A and discontinuing QuikClot. 

Basically, both products will get the bleeding stopped, but Celox will definitely assist in your recovery. Just my $0.02.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

jumper13 said:


> LongRider, you gave a very good post. However, in the choice between Quik-clot and Celox for post-SHTF hemorrhage control, I would definitely go with Celox. Quikclot
> does stop major bleeding, but it is still a clay-based product and must be completely removed from the wound (debrided) before the wound can heal. In the field, this would cause the wound to start bleeding again, and it would be all but impossible to get all the QuikClot particles out. This is usually done in the OR, so unless you have access to a hospital, Celox is a much better product. Celox forms a gel-like plug in the wound, and it has been proven to stop a femoral artery tear. The best part about Celox is that is DOES NOT have to be removed for the wound to heal--the plug will absorb into the body over time, and the wound will heal around it. Celox is available over-the-counter in several forms, like granule packets and gauze, and you can probably find it on amazon. However, Celox-A is the best version hands down, but it requires a scrip. Celox-A is in a syrringe form that can be inserted deep into a wound (like a gunshot) and then injected directly onto the hemorrhaging vessel. FYI...the military is now using Celox-A and discontinuing QuikClot.
> 
> Basically, both products will get the bleeding stopped, but Celox will definitely assist in your recovery. Just my $0.02.


Some great info and validates SARSpecialist, my and others point. Knowledge over equipment. As SARSpecialist pointed out what was relevant last year is outdated the next. This is a perfect example.

Thanks for the heads up I did not know about Celox-A is in a syringe. BTW it seems CELOX-A Applicator is available to civilians without a script from at least one source, here from Botach Tactical CELOX-A Applicator. Definitely something I want to learn more about.

I have both QuiKClot and Celox in gauze and sponges and Celox in powder. Reports of secondary burns and concern about clots forming distant from the injury sight with the use of QuikClot steered me away from it as a powder and diminished my confidence in it overall. But I have some as a last resort. Figure I'd rather get a little burned than just bleed out.

Filling gaping wounds with either sponges and gauze and applying pressure is how I was trained to use either. So some of the concerns you expressed would apply to either product as the gauze or sponge would have to be removed with either product. You would want to eventually evacuate the wound so that you could clean it. The thought of leaving any substance in a gaping wound to fill a cavity, does sound alien to me and something I need to learn more about. My primary concern would be foreign particles trapped in the wound by the Celox causing infection. Be interested in learning how that is dealt with.

I have not read all of these yet but for those interested, here are some information files on Celox from the manufacturer *SAM Medical Products*



> *Literature:*
> CELOX Overview Brochure
> CELOX-A Fact Sheet
> CELOX-A Instructional Poster
> ...


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## bunkerbob (Sep 29, 2009)

jbillh said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> A good friend of mine (and a fellow prepper) asked me where he could find a really complete first aid kit. He wants one with sutures, needles, antibiotics etc. All the stuff you would need if you were really on your own and had to DIY it.
> 
> ...


Assemble your own, much cheaper, here is a list from my bag in the bugout section using a MOLLE II med pac... http://www.preparedsociety.com/bug-out-bag/bunkerbobs-5.html

BB


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

bunkerbob said:


> Assemble your own, much cheaper, here is a list from my bag in the bugout section using a MOLLE II med pac... http://www.preparedsociety.com/bug-out-bag/bunkerbobs-5.html
> 
> BB


Good point. That was my plan A. The reason I opted for the STOMP MEDIC BAG is that it is a purpose built combat medic bag and is available for only slightly less empty. The essentially free included supplies offered a decent foundation to build my kit from. Point is of you are correct but be sure to compare prices, quality, design and features. Be sure to look at Army surplus. Though it seems most combat medics keep whatever kit they can


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

Wow, this is really over the top. I was a Paramedic for 9 years, lower cert levels 8 more. I have worked 5 years in a Level 1 trauma facility. 

:ranton:If you are relying on todays medicine, forget it. No matter how much you stock up, you will run out. Learn how they did it in the old days with fabric, sticks, herbs and so on. Yeah quick clot is nice, but lets face it: if your life is in that much of a pickle, you are going to die without a surgeon anyways.

Lots of people will die. Plan for it, don't become a "medic" by attending a couple of classes and have no clue what you are doing. Don't get the stitches or stapler because without years of practice, you will screw it up. How soon before everyone sees you as "Doc" and you are so far in over your head that you are afraid to give people a bandaid.

One person talked about a first aid kit with basic EMT stuff, cervical collars and all! OK, so someone falls and you put the collar on them, you then pull the longboard out of your back pocket and secure them to that using several 9 foot straps, then take them to the aid station and do a cross table c-spine xray followed up by a CT scan. You then read the films and determine that the spine is clear. How about some common sense. Learn how to actually clear a neck injury.

As I said, if you need to use a lot of stuff found in todays EMT kits or an ambulance, the person will probably die. The gear found there is to get them to a Doctor in a Hospital. Even as a Paramedic, I only had enough meds to last a couple of hours. Then you got the airway and IV supplies, great you give someone some fluid. But those bags will get heavy. Get them to drink water instead. If they can't keep it down, find a suitable anti-emetic (ginger works) if that does not work, it is probably too late to change, wait to see if they come out of it.

The simple fact of the matter is that without years of training and practice, you will not be much good. You can read the book all you want, but the education is designed with the idea that you will be turning over to a higher level of care.

Find instead books that talk about living off the land healthcare wise. Now this is not meant to say that you should not have a personal kit or Over The Counter Medications for YOUR use ONLY. YOU have no idea what antibiotic or medicine is good for who or how it will interact with their gout or whatever. You may in fact kill them. Again, with medicine, if it is needed to keep someone alive and there is no natural herb or something, they will die.

I know it is scary to a lot of folks, but focus more on survival with food and self-sustainability. There are plenty of people out there that are trained, get one in your group, make sure they are trained to an advanced level. If they have a head on their shoulders, they will be more focused on preventative care and diagnostic care so something renewable can be used to help them. Trauma care at this point is pretty much useless beyond simple dressings. Cardiac, neurological, endocrine, and so on will all be put aside. It will turn into a darwinian world where you must rely on yourself to survive.:rantoff:


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## DKRinAK (Nov 21, 2011)

JimMadsen said:


> Wow, this is really over the top. I was a Paramedic for 9 years, lower cert levels 8 more. I have worked 5 years in a Level 1 trauma facility.
> 
> :ranton:If you are relying on todays medicine, forget it. No matter how much you stock up, you will run out. Learn how they did it in the old days with fabric, sticks, herbs and so on. Yeah quick clot is nice, but lets face it: if your life is in that much of a pickle, you are going to die without a surgeon anyways.
> 
> ...


I will only add a huge - Amen, Brother. Amen. The biggest 'prep' med I have is a 500 ct bottle of ASA. Old time medicine may have been crude, but some of it worked. Best to learn now what did and didn't.


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## jbillh (Mar 4, 2011)

Hi Jim,

You make several really great points but I kinda got an old nagging feeling when I went through your post.

It's the "babies must be born in a hospital under a doctors' care" sentiment.

Although infant and mother mortality rates have improved with "modern medicine," there were (and still are) quite a few billion babies born right at home and somehow a good many of them survived.

Again... I'm not really arguing with you here mate, just saying that if you don't have much in the way of training or supplies you can either accept that and let the acute "patient" die or you can get all Mac Gyver and improvise a bit.

Sure, I'd much rather have a real pro and all the best supplies in my bunker... but in the absence of such, I'll pretty much attempt anything to save a life, even knowing that I may fail in the process.

The Boy Scout Motto "Be Prepared" is a great place to start. That certainly includes some level of emergency medical training before a potential societal collapse occurs and "regular" access to medical pros is limited or generally non-existent.

Do my fellow Preppers think I'm misguided here? I'd better get off here so I can get back to my DIY Splenectomy home study course 

All the Best,


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

I am all for going all out. And I have no true belief that childbirth must be done in the hospital, after all, women have done it on their own a 100 times longer that there have been hospitals.

What I meant was that just about every single outlet of modern day medicine is from tests and diagnostic imaging and such. People need to focus on what to do generally and people are focusing on specifics. Forget the A.E.D because the battery will die before you use it and the outcome will be bad probably without a cath. anyways. Forget the IVs because if they can't take anything PO (by mouth) then they are probably too far gone for frontier medicine. All we can do is focus on reusable medicines and techniques.

Our life expectancy has gone through the roof from a hundred years ago, and thats a great thing, but it is mostly due to advances in medicine and surgeries. The diagnostic imaging has allowed problems to be seen and fixed early. In a EOTWAWKI situation, there will be no soon return to normal. You need to look out for you and yours. Figure out what medicine you need because it was prescribed to you and get a years supply of that. Heck if you need to, knock over a CVS once everything breaks down. But getting supplies to be the doctor of your group or family may be more foolhardy than anything else. It is like putting a spare engine in your back yard in case your car breaks down. Most of us wouldn't have the first clue has to how to change it without a youtube video to guide us.

Def be prepared (former scout myself) but be smart about it. There is so much involved in medical storage that food storage looks easy. My plan if that happens is to find the first abandoned ambulance I can find and clean it out. But thats me and I know how to use everything in there. And I feel very comfortable running an aid station (done it before, ran a first aid station where we treated and released at a 100,000+ people NASCAR event. Its amazing what trouble drunks can get into!) But you literally have to stock a small hospital in order to do that.

And do not forget that if you are medically certified, has existing Med Control and are storing Advanced Level Supplies, most docs I have come across will yank your med con for fear that you are practicing without a license. Your advanced medical training may only be used while you are working.


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

DKRinAK said:


> I will only add a huge - Amen, Brother. Amen. The biggest 'prep' med I have is a 500 ct bottle of ASA. Old time medicine may have been crude, but some of it worked. Best to learn now what did and didn't.


Thank you, but I would add a 500 count of APAP to that as the aspirin is a blood thinner. If you have to take it for pain and have some cuts giving you that pain, ASA prevents platelet aggrigation which means the clots may either dissolve or not form.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

JimMadsen said:


> Wow, this is really over the top.


WOW huge effort to make an off topic critical comment over a single statement taken out of context. Ignoring all my previous posts about training skill and knowledge superseding equipment. Completely ignoring the reasoning for my suggestion so you can be critical of my answer to the OP which was



jbillh said:


> where he could find a really complete first aid kit. He wants one with sutures, needles, antibiotics etc. All the stuff you would need if you were really on your own and had to DIY it.
> Do any of you know of such a kit?


I responded 


LongRider said:


> *Knowledge and experience far outweigh equipment in importance*. Something like a
> STOMP MEDIC BAG from CheaperThanDirt is a great starting point for equipment. It is a intelligently designed quality pack for in the field medical care
> 
> But *it is imperative that your review the items and know you have the knowledge and skill to use them properly.* Than add those items/tools that you have experience and knowledge with that are lacking. *There is no reason to carry sutures, Intubation kits, oxygen tanks or IV lines if you do not know how, and when to use them. Doing so may cause far more harm than good. For the first responder, skills and knowledge far outweigh equipment in importance.* That you are asking what supplies you need for a medic pack indicates that maybe your focus is misdirected. *Get training, than you will know what tools you will need.*


Your post went to great lengths to ignore any of that statement in order to be insulting and critical and than asserting the very thing you opted to ignore like some internet know it all.

In my next post I went on to explain why I suggested the STOMP MEDIC BAG from CheaperThanDirt



LongRider said:


> The reason I opted for the STOMP MEDIC BAG is that it is a purpose built combat medic bag and is available for only slightly less empty. *The essentially free included supplies offered a decent foundation to build my kit from*.


The bag itself is a top quality bag. Combat proven durable will last a life time under hard use. A critical consideration when acquiring SHTF gear that you will not be able to replace. It is intelligently laid out so you can quickly acquire what you need in a crisis. As you are the expert. Why not post an ON TOPIC, reply and answer to the OP. Tell us what is wrong with the STOMP MEDIC BAG. What are its short comings & weaknesses? How are other Medical Packs more effective and useful? Could it be you do not know because you have never used or even seen one?
Next did you read the list of essentially FREE contents? As I stated it is a decent basic foundation to build a kit on. The contents are basic first aid items that can be built on based upon the operators skill, knowledge and need. How is that over the top. Where are all the antibiotic medications and IV kits you seemed so concerned about? Or is that more crap you fabricated as an excuse to be a snide know it all? Exactly what items are included that are not needed in a first aid kit?



JimMadsen said:


> If you are relying on todays medicine, forget it. No matter how much you stock up, you will run out. Learn how they did it in the old days with fabric, sticks, herbs and so on.


Whether or not we should avail ourselves to older health care solutions is NOT the topic. Just another off topic irrelevant rant to inflate your ego. Fact is my wife grew up off grid on the reservation and knows the traditional medicines that worked for her people for 20,000 years before there were any know it all paramedics or level 1 trauma facilities. My bet is she has forgotten more about traditional medicines and health practices than you will ever know. But health care is not the topic. The topic is what is a good comprehensive commercially available trauma pack


JimMadsen said:


> Yeah quick clot is nice, but lets face it: if your life is in that much of a pickle, you are going to die without a surgeon anyways.:


Its Quikclot not quick clot. How come you do not know that? Most any REAL medical professional knows that it is critical to use correct accurate references. Similar sounding medications do not do or mean the same thing. Talk about a lack of skill or knowledge. To claim that modern advances in medicine are not effective in dramatically improving trauma care or that a surgeon is mandatory to live through life threatening injuries reeks of unbridled ignorance. Catastrophic injuries can be treated and lives saved without a surgeon ever seeing the patient. Proper use of modern medications and procedure contribute to layman's ability to treat traumatic injury without the aid of a doctor. I know of two instances. One I in which I treated a severed femoral artery. Celox stopped the bleeding quickly enough for me to locate the artery and clamp it off before he bled out. I was then able to locate both ends. Loosely tie them off and stitch the flaps together so that they did not retract into his leg making reattachment impossible. Clean the wound apply a pressure bandage stabilize the leg as the cut was on the inside of his knee and I did not want him bending his knee, tearing the sutures or opening the wound. Then we packed him off to the ER. A surgeon was able to re connect his artery and close up the wound but that was not necessary to save his life. Had we been to far off to get medical care or if medical care was no longer available as in the SHTF I could have closed the wound up, allowed for drainage, kept the wound clean, the leg stabilized until it healed and he would have been fine. The artery would reconnect itself in time. So no just because Celox was needed did not mean he would have died without a doctor. Contrary to your claim.



JimMadsen said:


> As I said, if you need to use a lot of stuff found in todays EMT kits or an ambulance, the person will probably die. The gear found there is to get them to a Doctor in a Hospital. Even as a Paramedic, I only had enough meds to last a couple of hours. Then you got the airway and IV supplies, great you give someone some fluid. But those bags will get heavy. Get them to drink water instead. If they can't keep it down, find a suitable anti-emetic (ginger works) if that does not work, it is probably too late to change, wait to see if they come out of it.


First it is over the top now it is inadequate. Which is it? Who cares what you do or do not carry in your little aid car. It is not relevant to the topic. This is a survival forum asking about a good comprehensive commercially available trauma pack that will be useful when your little aid car and precious doctors are NOT around. 
As an example. Fact is IV kits are one of the items I added to my bag for when a sip of ginger ale will not do. Contrary to what you claim the inability to hold down fluids does not mean it is too late. Nor is it what is always needed. You don't treat shock with oral liquids. Intravenous fluids are used to help treat shock and keep the blood pressure within a normal range to stabilize a patient. Especially when the shock is due to blood loss. Nor do you need to pack saline bags as you seem to think. It's a trauma "pack" not an aid car. My camel back or even an empty soda bottle will work if I can run a line. The only saline solution I carry is a 100 ml bottles of 0.9% saline solution to irrigate wounds and IV lines.

So can you answer the OP's question? What do you know about a good quality comprehensive commercially available trauma pack that will serve as a foundation to build on for a SHTF trauma pack.



DKRinAK said:


> I will only add a huge - Amen, Brother. Amen. The biggest 'prep' med I have is a 500 ct bottle of ASA. Old time medicine may have been crude, but some of it worked. Best to learn now what did and didn't.


Excellent! Damn shame you didn't have one of them thar new fangled Epinephrine Pen do dads to keep that lady from dying of Anaphylactic Shock. But hey yer assburn will help with the headache from the stinking reeking corpse. BTW when your 500ct of aspirin runs out. Try some birch bark tea. It does the same thing.


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

Well Long Rider, you obviously have the training to use things that you have talked about and I agreed with your comments about knowledge being important. I was addressing more people who do not have training say where to get this or where to get that. You are right about Quikclot not being called quick clot, but I assume that since you knew what I was talking about, my point was made. I moved to a different career field shortly before it was released to the military and before it was sold commercially or used in ambulances. (combination of bad back, economy, stress, and too many dead kids) My last PreHospital Trauma Life Support Class was in 2001, if I recall correctly it was still being trialed by the Army then. Could be wrong though, and I myself have never used it. But I do know about it as it is headquartered in Wallingford, where I worked for the towns commercial ambulance company.

There is nothing wrong with the Stomp Medic Bag, if you know how to use the things in there. I think the only thing that should not be included is the instruction book. If you need and instruction book to tell you about direct pressure, then pressure point, then elevation, then tourniquet, you probably should have a kit with some band aides only.

IV kits are something that I would NOT want to stock. As you said some sterilized salt water (at 0.9%) will do the same thing. But in a massive trauma, you do not really have the ability to pour the massive amounts of fluid into someone to keep them going. Lets not forget that NS does not carry oxygen.

Now if you noticed, the OP asked where to get a* "really complete first aid kit. He wants one with sutures, needles, antibiotics etc. All the stuff you would need if you were really on your own and had to DIY it.* so my point about all that extra stuff is valid. Pretty much if you knew how to use it, you would know where to get it. Now if you would like to know what is a decent set of medications to stock for a anything may happen scenario, I can give you a list of what I would carry if I decided it to be worth it (which I don't, but hey you want to be prepared and ride in on the white horse for everyone)

But your case is valid, you sent the guy to a surgeon. Could he have survived? Sure, but what else may have popped up that would have led to a poor outcome? But I assume you had the training to be able to locate a severed artery or vein and know what to do. This all goes back to training, a point that I made, and you made. We are in agreement but you are jumping on my back. The topic is not "Hey I have training in this and that, what would be good to stock in accordance with what I have the knowledge to do?" It is "hey, what should I have in case I need it and I will figure it out later." We both said pretty much the same thing.

And for that anaphylaxis, go to the pharmacy and buy some Primatene Mist. It is obtainable without a Rx and it is inhaled epi. If you are worried about anaphylaxis then buy that instead of an epi pen.

I find it strange that out of 3 pages of threads, where I am basically agreeing with you about the training but disagreeing with those talking about advanced care preparedness, you think I am jumping on you.

Now since you think I am hiding behind the internet and do not have a clue, here are some links showing who I am:

http://www.iaep.org/news/news-artic...Over-Possible-Cuts-to-Emergency-Services.html


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## jumper13 (Aug 13, 2011)

The past few quotes present an interesting twist to this conversation. I just have a few things to add:

1. A first-rate, carefully prepared medical bag (not a combat trauma bag) is absolutely essential post SHTF. Period. That's why this thread exists.

2. Good decisionmaking post-SHTF is also absolutely essential. You must know what to treat and what you can't, and plan and train accordingly. Your supplies should not be wasted on someone who cannot be saved.

3. Advanced wound treatment (and/or closure in the field when necessary) will save lives, and any reasonably intelligent layperson can be trained to do this or to assist someone else. Wet-to-dry dressings will be lifesavers, and they do not require a college degree or years of training. Just read!

4. Antibiotics are also absolutely essential, and they are easy to learn. You only need to know the term "broad spectrum" and then learn 3-4 antibiotics in that group.

5. It is entirely possible for an uncertified but intelligent "layperson" to render effective medical care post SHTF. You *must* blend primitive medicine with modern medicine. For example, a layperson, having read about lancing the a dental abscess with a fishhook or scalpel from his kit, rinsing with water from a stream, and giving amoxicillin, *will* save a life. However, an ignorant, medically-unprepared person will instead get to watch their loved one suffer terribly and eventually die from sepsis.

6. A "prepper" who only keeps an old bottle of aspirin as the total of his/her medical supplies is *extremely *naive :gaah:. Humans are very fragile creatures, and if you ignore the need to meet your own medical needs post SHTF, you or your loved ones will rapidly become statistics and you *will* regret your previous decision. A flippant attitude about these topics will result in many unfortunate circumstances that could have been easily avoided. DKR, I can guarantee that you will wish you had some immodium to go with that aspirin or APAP when you finally realize that the world has gone to hell...

7. To enter a thread about advanced first aid kits, where folks want to learn and consult each other, and introduce yourself by calling the conversation "over the top" is pretty rude.

8. Post-SHTF, who cares about a license to practice medicine, rules, and protocols? The only things that will matter are knowledge, competency, forethought, planning, and decent medical preparation to make a real difference in taking care of yourself and your family. Alphabet soup after your name will be meaningless.


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## jumper13 (Aug 13, 2011)

JimMadsen said:


> Figure out what medicine you need because it was prescribed to you and get a years supply of that. Heck if you need to, knock over a CVS once everything breaks down. But getting supplies to be the doctor of your group or family may be more foolhardy than anything else. It is like putting a spare engine in your back yard in case your car breaks down. Most of us wouldn't have the first clue has to how to change it without a youtube video to guide us.
> 
> Def be prepared (former scout myself) but be smart about it. There is so much involved in medical storage that food storage looks easy. My plan if that happens is to find the first abandoned ambulance I can find and clean it out. But thats me and I know how to use everything in there. And I feel very comfortable running an aid station (done it before, ran a first aid station where we treated and released at a 100,000+ people NASCAR event. Its amazing what trouble drunks can get into!) But you literally have to stock a small hospital in order to do that.
> 
> And do not forget that if you are medically certified, has existing Med Control and are storing Advanced Level Supplies, most docs I have come across will yank your med con for fear that you are practicing without a license. Your advanced medical training may only be used while you are working.


Jim, I have to strongly disagree. First, waiting until after SHTF to raid an ambulance or a CVS is very naive. Those will be the first things looted by gangs before you even know what is going on. You will be entirely dependent on what you have accumulated prior to this sort of incident. Hence, the reason for comprehensive medical bags...

Second, as a former paramedic and boy scout, you should know better. Modern medicine and today's basic healthcare standards have given the competent layperson far more effectiveness in performing medical care than a physician could 100 years ago. Preppers should capitalize on this fact and prepare accordingly.


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

I do agree with you, but I stand by my point that basic first aid and knowledge will save more lives then stocking up for a massive multitrauma. Sorry for ticking people off but I do feel strongly about what I have said. But in the interests of the forum, I will keep it to myself (mostly) and help out.

I just happen to believe that prepping along those lines is a mistake. Opinions are like you know what and they all stink. I have no problem giving any advice that someone wants and post up what I would like to have if I was dreaming big about what to put in a bag (and have done so for mass events)

But I will preface any post I do about medical things with a disclaimer that if you do not know what you are doing about something, get the knowledge. I personally think money is better spent elsewhere, but I will answer (in my own opinion of course) what I think.

Basic Kit: has been covered elsewhere, I will move onto more advanced things

Advanced: 
OTC:
APAP, 500 mg several thousand (adult and childrens, chewable maybe)
Motrin, 200 mg several thousand
ASA, 81 mg baby aspirin (500 ct bottle) take 324 mg at first onset of chest pain or angina
Vitamins, pick your poison
Immodium and or Pepto: lots
Dayquil and Nyquil
Benadryl

Useful Medications:
Antibiotics, check your group for allergies and get dosage instructions for our concerns
Zofran ODT
Low strength pain killers (vicodin, tylox, percocet, etc...)
Inhalers Albuterol, Ipatropium Bromide
Primatene Mist
Dextrose 50% (must be given IV)
Epi Pen and Epi Pen Jr
Lasix 200mg minimum if anyone has CHF (this may only be a one incident dose)
Mag Sulfate (may be used to stop premature labor, varying efficacy. Consider terbutaline, nifedipine, or indomethacin)
Bottle of Whiskey (antifreeze poisoning)
Oxygen tanks if you can get them along with NC's and NRB's
If you are worried about someone OD'ing on any narcotic get narcan 2mg dose
Viscous Lidocaine
Hurricane Spray
Activated Charcoal with and without sorbitol
Syrup of Ipecac 
Liquid Colace (a bit in the ear will clear a clogged eardrum, hydrogen peroxide works too) 
There are lots more but I will have to come back and add them, drawing a blank at the moment.

Gear:
IV (at least a box of each size) caths
Syringes (at least box of 1cc, 5cc, 10cc, maybe 100cc)
Needles of various sizes for needles
If you want IV fluids, Normal Saline, Lactated Ringers, D5W 1/2NS
IV Drip sets mini and maxi
Tourniquets 
MAD device (http://www.lmana.com/pwpcontrol.php?pwpID=6359)
Airway set 0-6
Hand held non powered suction device (I always told newbies that a straw works)
Various sized sutures or stapler
needle trach and a bag valve mask (or use a drip set, if you want to know more, let me know)
Broslow tape
lancets
scalpels
betadine (lots of it)

There is a short list, again only use what you are completely comfortable with and learn how to use it.

The MAD is really cool, I am sure a bunch of meds can be given by it with no training.

And maybe, when I am done with stocking a fair amount of food for myself, wife, kids and securing a way to be self sufficient I will look at making a med kit again.


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