# Ammo question



## RUN1251

I have a new sig 238p that I intend to carry (CHL). I also have a rugger, too heavy, and an LCP, no safety bothers me. I'm only 5'2" and weigh 110, so I can't carry anything too heavy. I've shot 600 rounds and really like it, but haven't yet taken it off the range. My question is what kind of ammunition I should use when I start to carry it. The internet literature says there can be some problems with jamming and the type ammunition used is important. All I've used so far is Winchester 95 grain fmj and it has been great. The gun dealer I purchased it from recommended using Remington golden sabre 102 grain HP for carrying. What do y'all think?


----------



## truecarnage

Is this a .380? If so time to upgrade! 
But serious fire as hot and heavy a round as your gun will feed reliably.
Velocity X mass = stopping power and penetration
All the major manufacturers remington, hornady, Winchester, Corbon etc. Make good defensive ammunition.
its more about what your gun likes than anything else, & if it eats everything you feed it "great" then go with witch ever brand you prefer


----------



## zracer7

I wouldn't carry a weapon with ammo I haven't fired on the range yet. With that said, I'd go buy a few different brands and run them through their paces at the range and find out which ones I like best. I, personally, would carry HP rounds. They expand when the enter the body which cause massive tissue damage but won't penetrate through most walls (eliminating the possibility of hitting someone else unintentionally).


----------



## tac803

Get a few different types of ammo and try them out at the range. You want to be sure that they are hitting to point of aim and are reliable.


----------



## Padre

*Reconsider your equipment...*



tac803 said:


> Get a few different types of ammo and try them out at the range. You want to be sure that they are hitting to point of aim and are reliable.


I agree with all that has already been said. Personally I carry the Sabre's in my S&W model 60 .357.

I know this is probably not what you want to hear but, who talked you into a auto, and a .380 too boot, for your first carry gun?

When you plan to buy another gun, I highly recommend you look at a revolver. Don't want to start a auto vs. wheel gun debate here, but my .357 will stop most people with one shot, it weighs only a few oz more than your .380, and it NEVER jams. For a novice concealed carrier, or a pro, a revolver is the way to go for concealed carry (not for a side arm in a zombie apocalypse...).

BTW I am a big guy so I like the solid feel of my model 60 and don't care about weight, but I know S&W makes lighter versions of my gun.


----------



## BillM

You might try Glasser Safety Slugs. They are a devistating self defence round that delivers a 100% energy dump into the target with no over penitration. The configuration of the nose of the round is an exact match to the round your weapon is reliably cycleing now. These rounds are pricey but you are not looking to practice with them and can you realy put a price on your life?


----------



## OldCootHillbilly

As ta the original question, get ya some hollow points an see what ones will feed through yalls weapon reliably. The hp's as others have said, er less likely ta cause calateral damage. Ifin hp's won't feed well then go as heavy a round as yall can get.

Nothin wrong with that 380 fer what yall usin it fer. Self defense gonna happen at close range an ifin ya pop a couple them 380's in somebodies chest there gonna regret it.

I got a 357 mag an a 380 auto, I've carried both. I prefer ta carry the auto, slimmer profile an less wieght. But this has wandered inta personal choice.


----------



## LincTex

I (foolishly) thought my wife would like the Kel-Tec P3AT (.380 - Ruger copied it to make the LCP) and she never warmed up to it at all. I bought her a Taurus 85 in .38 Special and she loves it! Got her the pink Hogue hand-grips for it, too.

In .380, I like Speer Gold Dots. 
But the advice is the same.... spend $100 on several 20rd boxes of self-defense .380 ammo and take them to the range, find out which ones work best for your pistol.

Speer Gold Dots
Hornady Critical Defense
Cor-Bon
PDX-1
Remington Golden Sabre
etc.

One more thing..... in the end, only a well placed shot is effective... no matter WHAT ammo you are shooting. A nicely placed .380 shot is MUCH more effective than a poorly placed shot from any other "better caliber".


----------



## tac803

LincTex said:


> I (foolishly) thought my wife would like the Kel-Tec P3AT (.380 - Ruger copied it to make the LCP) and she never warmed up to it at all. I bought her a Taurus 85 in .38 Special and she loves it! Got her the pink Hogue hand-grips for it, too.
> 
> In .380, I like Speer Gold Dots.
> But the advice is the same.... spend $100 on several 20rd boxes of self-defense .380 ammo and take them to the range, find out which ones work best for your pistol.
> 
> Speer Gold Dots
> Hornady Critical Defense
> Cor-Bon
> PDX-1
> Remington Golden Sabre
> etc.
> 
> One more thing..... in the end, only a well placed shot is effective... no matter WHAT ammo you are shooting. A nicely placed .380 shot is MUCH more effective than a poorly placed shot from any other "better caliber".


Well said. Even a .22 placed properly can effective stop a threat. It's not all about the caliber. Practice is paramount.


----------



## hiwall

If your gun likes the ball ammo you have been shooting and you like it then you can just use that. in real life I really doubt that there would be much difference between ball and HP out of that little pistol.


----------



## TheLazyL

hiwall said:


> If your gun likes the ball ammo you have been shooting and you like it then you can just use that. in real life I really doubt that there would be much difference between ball and HP out of that little pistol.


Agreed. Ammo that worked at the range will work for defense too.


----------



## d_saum

OldCootHillbilly said:


> Nothin wrong with that 380 fer what yall usin it fer. Self defense gonna happen at close range an ifin ya pop a couple them 380's in somebodies chest there gonna regret it.


Exactly! :2thumb:


----------



## d_saum

tac803 said:


> Well said. Even a .22 placed properly can effective stop a threat. It's not all about the caliber. Practice is paramount.


Ditto! I cannot stress this enough to my friends who think the .22 is a glorified bb gun! :gaah: But yeah, a 380 would be just fine for self defense! I want a subcompact 9mm only because I like the idea of having the same caliber for all my pistols.


----------



## LincTex

d_saum said:


> Ditto! I cannot stress this enough to my friends who think the .22 is a glorified bb gun!


A .22LR fire from a short (3") barreled pistol (Taurus PT-22, Berretta Bobcat, etc.) is very limited in what it can do.

However, a .22LR fired from a proper rifle is an extremely dangerous weapon against unarmored objects. I can't find the youtube video I was looking for, but remember that every animal in North America has been taken with the .22. (But please don't go polar bear hunting with one).

Have any of you killed a wild pig or coyote with a .22, and then examined it? The wound channel always impresses me, considering how much you are getting from such a small cased-round.


----------



## hiwall

"A .22LR fire from a short (3") barreled pistol (Taurus PT-22, Berretta Bobcat, etc.) is very limited in what it can do."

President Reagan came Very close to dying from the .22 SHORT he was shot with. It was kind of a miracle he lived. 22's are deadly. Many many die from the 22. I would rather carry something bigger but if its a 22 that is OK also.


----------



## LincTex

hiwall said:


> 22's are deadly. Many many die from the 22.


I will not dispute the lethality of the .22 rimfire. It is amazing how many people have died from .22 rimfire wounds.

However, it does not kill QUICKLY - - - which is what you need in a self defense situation. It would be a terrible tragedy to shoot three of the six rounds in your .22 revolver into a bad guy, only to have him struggle and pull it out of your hands and have him shoot YOU with the remaining three rounds. Then you can both lie on the floor and die slowly together.

I always tell people to train as though you will be emptying the gun in self defense. Ammo is cheap, so put all of them into the bad guy.


----------



## LincTex

hiwall said:


> President Reagan came Very close to dying from the .22 SHORT he was shot with. It was kind of a miracle he lived.


Who knew??

"It had been loaded with six "Devastator"-brand cartridges which contained small aluminum and lead azide explosive charges designed to explode on contact; the bullet that hit Brady likely exploded in his skull.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagan_assassination_attempt


----------



## partdeux

{sigh} another big gun is better thread. Most ammo takes more than 1 shot to drop someone with nefarious intent. I would much rather see 3 shots on target with a 22LR then 3 misses with a .45.

Back to the OP, LCP is a handful. I occassionally carry mine when it doesn't make sense to carry something bigger. BUT, a good holster, like crossbreed or similar, with a STURDY belt will do wonders for carrying. My wife carries a Bersa Thunder .380, which I hate, but she loves. Father in law just got a S&W shield 9mm, which I haven't shot yet, but it is fantastic to hold.


----------



## BillM

*All Handguns*



partdeux said:


> {sigh} another big gun is better thread. Most ammo takes more than 1 shot to drop someone with nefarious intent. I would much rather see 3 shots on target with a 22LR then 3 misses with a .45.
> 
> Back to the OP, LCP is a handful. I occassionally carry mine when it doesn't make sense to carry something bigger. BUT, a good holster, like crossbreed or similar, with a STURDY belt will do wonders for carrying. My wife carries a Bersa Thunder .380, which I hate, but she loves. Father in law just got a S&W shield 9mm, which I haven't shot yet, but it is fantastic to hold.


All Handguns are small.

That is why soldiers carry rifles.

When I was a deputy we had a bank robber shot in Clarkson by the bank manager.

The Robber walked in to the bank with a mask and a rifle.

The bank mgr fired one round of .45 ACP hardball and made a heart shot on the intended robber.

He turned walked out carrying his rifle turned and fell dead in the shrubs by the side walk.

If he had been inclined to do so, he could have emptyed his rifle into the bank mgr. before he died!

All handguns are small!


----------



## TheLazyL

LincTex said:


> ...
> However, a .22LR fired from a proper rifle is an extremely dangerous weapon against unarmored objects. I can't find the youtube video I was looking for,...


Was this it?


----------



## LincTex

partdeux said:


> {sigh} another big gun is better thread.


Wellllll.... we *did* answer the original poster's question properly.... 
once that has been accomplished, let the "thread drift" fly!!!! :beercheer:


----------



## bahramthered

Anyone who thinks that any gun can drop anyone instantly might want to do some reading. People have survived amazing wounds to do insane things. Even head shots can fail.

That said the oppisite is true, people have been knocked out of the fighting with just glorified flesh wounds.


----------



## truecarnage

A poke in the eye with a sharp stick will stop most people from doing something that they are doing, now keeping that in mind, as I stated before 
" velocity X mass = energy"
A .22 at 1100fps is not going to be able to do what a 9, .357, .40, .45 etc. Can do at the same velocity.
Not to mention to all those praising the .22, it is one of the most unreliable rounds made with the highest variations in velocity and the highest failure rate.
By the way I would rather have a .22 than a sharp stick if I needed to defend myself.


----------



## partdeux

Good discussion *here*


----------



## truecarnage

partdeux said:


> Good discussion *here*


All right I call B. S. 
I don't know where you got this chart but I pulled up data from credible stats and this is bass akwords.
if you study the charts in almost ever caliber variation the percent goes up as the caliber goes up.
Ya and I know your not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition.


----------



## truecarnage

Small part of stats


----------



## BillM

The FBI stats I read in the 90's showed little diffrence on a one shot hit as far as incapasitation.

The stopper was a second centerline hit from any caliber.


----------



## partdeux

Thank you for the English lesson. Did you click on the link and READ the article?

I listened to the author talk on Tom Gresham's Guntalk show a couple of weeks ago, it was enlightening to listen to somebody that actually RESEARCHED the data.


----------



## bahramthered

partdeux said:


> Good discussion *here*


Thx you make my point for me, even your chart says at best 20% of people are not incapacitated by the shot and can still act.

I don't buy your chart fully and think BillM might be onto something. I'd like to see his stats but there's reason people are trained to double tap or triple tap with smaller arms.

but just to reinforce:

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/DOCS+GIVE+KIRSTY+'HER'+SCREWDRIVER;+Jokes+defy+skull+scare.-a061117579

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/18/yasser-lopez-fishing-spear_n_1606511.html


----------



## cajunmeadows

BillM said:


> The FBI stats I read in the 90's showed little diffrence on a one shot hit as far as incapasitation.
> 
> The stopper was a second centerline hit from any caliber.


Zombieland IE: the double tap


----------



## bfvtech

The double tap nice name funny movie(zombieland). In the army we are taught the double tap but we call it controlled pair its the same thing make sure that you put two rounds quickly in the same spot while on the move


----------



## mojo4

Make it simple, keep shooting until you stop the target or run out of ammo. If you run out and the target is still coming at you be prepared to run!!


----------



## rider1k

So what's the best bullet? I shoot 556/223 and 45 auto mostly. As I will use 00 buck in the trusty 12ga. I am a hunter and know well of hunting leads. But let's say TSHTF! How well is FMJ vs JHP ? Price is obvious. What about real world application?


----------



## bahramthered

mojo4 said:


> Make it simple, keep shooting until you stop the target or run out of ammo. If you run out and the target is still coming at you be prepared to run!!


Yeah and the hit guy who decides to provide overwatch to his comrades is not a threat since he stopped moving? And that guy who's still crawling deserves another couple rounds on principal?


----------



## TheLazyL

rider1k said:


> So what's the best bullet? I shoot 556/223 and 45 auto mostly. As I will use 00 buck in the trusty 12ga. I am a hunter and know well of hunting leads. But let's say TSHTF! How well is FMJ vs JHP ? Price is obvious. What about real world application?


In this order:

ICBM

105mm howitzer

50 BMG

7.62 NATO

5.56 NATO green tip

22 rifle

45 ACP pistol

9 mm pistol

22 pistol

knife

See the theme here?

As much and many of the above you can afford.


----------



## partdeux

LL,

you forgot the rocket launcher 

One of my fav movie scenes of all time, Chuck norris in invasion USA sending one into Rosco... "Rosco, it's time to die"


----------



## d_saum

BillM said:


> The Robber walked in to the bank with a mask and a rifle.
> 
> The bank mgr *fired one round* of .45 ACP hardball and made a heart shot on the intended robber.
> 
> He turned walked out carrying his rifle turned and fell dead in the shrubs by the side walk.


Well... There's your problem! One round? Sorry Charlie.. if you come into my place of business/residence/whatever... and you are wearing a mask and carrying a rifle, you will be the recipient of several rounds of ammunition. And double tap? No.. sorry.. I go for the trifecta. Two in the chest, one in the head. If you get up from that.. well then.. dang.. you must be on bath salts or something and I'm heading for the hills.


----------



## lefty

note the ICBM is not advised for close quarters combat


----------



## LincTex

lefty said:


> note the ICBM is not advised for close quarters combat


Same with the rocket propelled grenade.....


----------



## d_saum

LincTex said:


> Same with the rocket propelled grenade.....


My friend sent me that pic in an email about 5 or 6 years ago... I still laugh as hard now as I did then!! Love that pic!


----------



## LincTex

d_saum said:


> I still laugh as hard now as I did then!! Love that pic!


Yeah, me too, LOL!!!


----------



## Marcus

TheLazyL said:


> In this order:
> 
> ICBM
> 
> 105mm howitzer
> 
> 50 BMG
> 
> 7.62 NATO
> 
> 5.56 NATO green tip
> 
> 22 rifle
> 
> 45 ACP pistol
> 
> 9 mm pistol
> 
> 22 pistol
> 
> knife
> 
> See the theme here?
> 
> As much and many of the above you can afford.


Let's not forget the 155mm Howitzer.

Note to myself: Recruit army at the zoo.


----------



## retrieverman

I have had my Sig P238 for a while now and tried a variety of ammo, and mine functioned fine with every single one. My carry ammo is either Remington 88 gr hollow points or Hornady Critical Defense 90 gr polymer tip ammo.

I bet my life on it every day.


----------



## TheLazyL

rider1k said:


> So what's the best bullet? I shoot 556...


Green tips....


----------



## Fn/Form

rider1k said:


> So what's the best bullet? I shoot 556/223 and 45 auto mostly. As I will use 00 buck in the trusty 12ga. I am a hunter and know well of hunting leads. But let's say TSHTF! How well is FMJ vs JHP ? Price is obvious. What about real world application?


My opinion. My two most important concerns are Projectile Integrity (bullet stays together no matter what it goes through) and Penetration (needs enough power).

No target loads or specialty ammo that compromises the above.

In .45ACP any of the modern, bonded hollow points will do fine. Federal HST, Speer Gold Dot and a few others. If you want to discuss why the others won't work as well, we can discuss it offline without jamming up this thread.

In 5.56 the preferred load is a bonded 62gr that performs well through barriers and has decent reliability with expansion. It is the Federal LE223T3. It is expensive, but it is the best all around 5.56, bar none.

The military's Mk318 Mod0 is a good second choice and much more affordable.

A third good choice is Speer Gold Dot in 62gr. Quality, all-around choices fall off after that. Some perform a unique function that compromises other qualities, but most of them just perform poorly for real world use.


----------



## Fn/Form

RUN1251 said:


> I have a new sig 238p that I intend to carry (CHL)...


This is one of the best .380 articles I know of. "DocGKR" is Dr. Gary K. Roberts. He is an expert in terminal ballistics. You can do a search for his background.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19914

There is very little in the way of .380 ballistics testing out there. And what research exists is not very encouraging when compared to other, similar calibers in similarly sized firearms.


----------



## Fn/Form

partdeux said:


> Thank you for the English lesson. Did you click on the link and READ the article?
> 
> I listened to the author talk on Tom Gresham's Guntalk show a couple of weeks ago, it was enlightening to listen to somebody that actually RESEARCHED the data.


I appreciate Ellifritz's effort, and I agree with his conclusion. He proves once again that a mass of poor data indicates nothing, no matter how much you analyze it.

Engineers, physicists, biologists, M.D.s and many other disciplines study this aspect of firearms use. They slice, dice and super photo every element of the equation. This is the only way to get at the real truth. Even then it's an imperfect final answer.

You have very little real control in a gunfight. But you DO have control over firearm reliability, decent caliber choice, ammunition and shot placement.


----------



## LongRider

RUN1251 said:


> The gun dealer I purchased it from recommended using Remington golden sabre 102 grain HP for carrying. What do y'all think?


I think your dealer knows what he is talking about. Mossad Ayoob makes the same recommendation. Golden Sabre in 9mm and .45 has been the long standing gold standard for many LEO departments until HST came along however HST is not available for 380. Golden Sabre has proven reliable consistent expansion and adequate penetration. My wife carries a 380 Bersa much to my chagrin I really wish she would carry at lease her 9mm which she shoots quiet well. But she says it is to bulky to carry and the gun she carries is far better than the gun left home in the drawer. 
Nothing wrong with a 380 Provided you do your part but remember the smaller the caliber the more precise your hits MUST be and more rounds you are likely going to need. It is not about killing, a .22 will kill eventually but most likely not in time to stop them from hurting you. You need to stop CNS function or cause enough blood loss to make them stop behaving badly. With a 380 that means alot of holes because they are not big holes even with good reliable expanding ammo. So practice hitting your target ALOT and practice reloading carry extra mags. Take a firearms training course take as many as you can afford practice what you learn. Good luck be safe


----------



## LongRider

BillM said:


> You might try Glasser Safety Slugs.


You may want to research that data a little more. Most self defense fire arms instructors steer students away from Glasser rounds as they performance is uniformly underwhelming. As I recall Glaser rounds were developed to solve a non existent problem. Based upon the myth that a bullet through the hull of a plane would cause it to decompress and crash. A bullet through the hull of a plane *WILL NOT* cause it to decompress and crash. As I recall Glaser were developed to not penetrate the hull of a plane. Problem is they don't penetrate much of anything else either leather, heavy clothing, denim and basically evaporate on contact transferring very little energy into the target. Their primary use is in some indoor ranges. Or for those who want a less than lethal round a bad idea in my opinion.


----------



## BillM

*Glasser*



LongRider said:


> You may want to research that data a little more. Most self defense fire arms instructors steer students away from Glasser rounds as they performance is uniformly underwhelming. As I recall Glaser rounds were developed to solve a non existent problem. Based upon the myth that a bullet through the hull of a plane would cause it to decompress and crash. A bullet through the hull of a plane *WILL NOT* cause it to decompress and crash. As I recall Glaser were developed to not penetrate the hull of a plane. Problem is they don't penetrate much of anything else either leather, heavy clothing, denim and basically evaporate on contact transferring very little energy into the target. Their primary use is in some indoor ranges. Or for those who want a less than lethal round a bad idea in my opinion.


Glasser safety slugs are a prefragmented round consisting of No nine or no six shot suspended in liquid teflon in a copper jacket with a hard teflon tip. They are high powered rounds and while they were developed for sky marshals, the design was not to prevent them from penitrating the hull of an airplane, (which they will with ease), they were developed to instantly stop a hijacker in a crowded airplane without penitrating the body cavity of the hijacker and hitting an innocent passenger behind him.

The teflon tip allows the round to penitrate heavy clothing or light body armor and compleatly fragment within eight inches of soft tissue. This effect delivers the compleat energy dump inside the body cavity of the agressor.
Without overpenitration endangering people in the background.

I set up a test of my own useing a half inch peice of plywood with a gallon milk jug full of water immediatly behind it. I placed a peice of cardboard behind the milk jug to act as a background. Useing a 38 sp + p Blue Glasser round from a distance of eight feet , I fired through the half inch plywood into the milk jug.

The round penitrated the plywood intact and compleatly exploded the milk jug without any penitration of the cardboard behind it.

It made a believer out of me but I too was a skeptic.

I also watched a film of a woman killing a Russian Boar with a single shot from a 38 spl snub from twenty feet useing the same round. It dropped him like a rabbit.


----------



## LongRider

BillM said:


> they were developed to instantly stop a hijacker in a crowded airplane without penitrating the body cavity of the hijacker and hitting an innocent passenger behind him.


Most any hollow point will do that. Which is why they were developed, that and to eliminate ricochet from misses. But I concede I may be completely off base can you provide and verifiable links to credible source to better inform myself with? As your post is contrary to everything I have ever read. Thanks


----------



## BillM

*Here is a test*



LongRider said:


> Most any hollow point will do that. Which is why they were developed, that and to eliminate ricochet from misses. But I concede I may be completely off base can you provide and verifiable links to credible source to better inform myself with? As your post is contrary to everything I have ever read. Thanks


Here is a test. Keep in mind this is a 380.

Judge for your self.


----------



## pandamonium

*Use whatever hollow points shoot well through your pistol.* The more holes you put into the target the more inclined he would be to stop doing whatever he is doing. Don't worry about tight groups every time. The more trauma in more places the faster he will succumb to said trauma. While at the range practicing, work on consistency, control, and accuracy. You DO want to be able to hit whatever it is you are shooting at. For personal defense, the most important thing, IMO anyway, is the ability to draw your firearm and acquire your target under stress and in many different positions, ie, on the ground on your back, on your side, knees, etc, using your strong hand and your weak hand. Be able to do that instinctively and hit your target too. Standing and shooting is the easy part. Learn how to do the rest and what brand of ammo you use doesn't make much difference, as long as you can let the air out of an assailant, you're odds of surviving an attack increase greatly.


----------



## LongRider

BillM said:


> Here is a test. Keep in mind this is a 380.
> 
> Judge for your self.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> a respected and credible source of information that uses accepted protocol to test ammunition performance. This YouTube provides very little data. Also not sure why you would show this YouTube to advocate Glaser. It shows Glaser performance to be dramatically underwhelming as one poster commented
> 
> 
> 
> For roughly 2.50per bullet, this ammo failed horribly. Unless your ballistic gel is made to simulate concrete, i would expect a more "dramatic effect". I mean, 1st the penetration is low and 2nd its fragmentation ability doesn't seem to be that effective in both tests. I highly appreciate this test but the only thing worse then this fail of an ammo is having the biggest fail moment for buying it in the 1st place (not cheap). Thumbs up for the video & actual tests, thumbs down for the ammo itself
> 
> 
> 
> That pretty much reflects what the 9MM Glaser Brassfetcher test revealed as well. With penetration being a third of the FBI minimum acceptable standard. The FBI minimum standard was designed following the Miami Shoot out to evaluate a bullets terminal performance and set minimum standards for FBI duty ammo. Lots of decent quality ammo out there that meets or exceeds the FBI standard.
> You may recall that Glaser once claimed to be one shot stop ammo. They no longer make that claim. Ever wonder why? You may want to look at some real comparative ballistic studies by credible sources.
> Last and something I failed to mention in my previous post. Whatever ammo you decide to carry you must be sure that it is 100% reliable in your gun. Even if uncle Joe has the exact same gun as you do does not guarantee that his ammo will work in your gun for self defense. You must test the ammo you will use for EDC in your EDC gun. The standard is 200 to 250 rounds without a failure of any kind. If you do have a failure and determine that it is not caused by the gun and ammo combination (was caused by limp writing for example) or if you can identify the problem and fix it (maybe the feed ramps were rough and needed polishing). Than you start from bullet #1 until 200 to 250 rounds have fired in a row without failure. If you can not make that happen do not carry that ammo in that gun for self defense. For Glaser that is a very expensive proposition. Glaser has been known to have feeding problems in semi auto handguns, so absolutely requires a reliability test.
Click to expand...


----------



## BillM

*It is clear*



LongRider said:


> YouTube videos are fun and entertaining but hardly scientific. I was looking for something from more credible sources using the FBI ballistic performance standards like this one from BrassFetcher 9mm Glaser Safety Slug a respected and credible source of information that uses accepted protocol to test ammunition performance. This YouTube provides very little data. Also not sure why you would show this YouTube to advocate Glaser. It shows Glaser performance to be dramatically underwhelming as one poster commented
> 
> That pretty much reflects what the 9MM Glaser Brassfetcher test revealed as well. With penetration being a third of the FBI minimum acceptable standard. The FBI minimum standard was designed following the Miami Shoot out to evaluate a bullets terminal performance and set minimum standards for FBI duty ammo. Lots of decent quality ammo out there that meets or exceeds the FBI standard.
> You may recall that Glaser once claimed to be one shot stop ammo. They no longer make that claim. Ever wonder why? You may want to look at some real comparative ballistic studies by credible sources.
> Last and something I failed to mention in my previous post. Whatever ammo you decide to carry you must be sure that it is 100% reliable in your gun. Even if uncle Joe has the exact same gun as you do does not guarantee that his ammo will work in your gun for self defense. You must test the ammo you will use for EDC in your EDC gun. The standard is 200 to 250 rounds without a failure of any kind. If you do have a failure and determine that it is not caused by the gun and ammo combination (was caused by limp writing for example) or if you can identify the problem and fix it (maybe the feed ramps were rough and needed polishing). Than you start from bullet #1 until 200 to 250 rounds have fired in a row without failure. If you can not make that happen do not carry that ammo in that gun for self defense. For Glaser that is a very expensive proposition. Glaser has been known to have feeding problems in semi auto handguns, so absolutely requires a reliability test.


It is clear that you have no confidence in frangible ammo. You should not use what you have no confidence in. The FBI has always relied solely on penitration first. The military is tied to a full jacketed round by treaty.
When equiping your self to meet a threat, you must prepair for the most likely senerio you will face. I chose Glassers for protection in my conveniance store years ago. I wanted that round to stop inside the armed robber not in a innocent patron but I knew it would be point blank and defencive rather than offencive. When I was a deputy, we carried Corbon jacketed hollow points.

What ever round anyone decides to carry, they should trust it. Glassers are not used to practice with. Too expencive !


----------



## LincTex

BillM said:


> What ever round anyone decides to carry, they should trust it. Glasers are not used to practice with. Too expensive !


Yes, that is correct.... and ANY ammo that is too expensive to practice with has NO good reason to be in your magazine and to be trusting your life to!!!

I carry what I practice with.... and, in addition, what I trust. And I trust what I carry. (Speer Gold Dot)


----------



## mojo4

Well linc I gotta disagree with you there. I buy cheap russian ammo for practice in my pistols and rifles and when I carry I carry the good stuff. I agree with squeezing off a few good rounds so you can get the idea on how it feels and performs but to only practice with expensive good stuff is nuts!! Unless you have 100 dollar bills falling outta your pockets.


----------



## LincTex

mojo4 said:


> I agree with squeezing off a few good rounds so you can get the idea on how it feels and performs but to only practice with expensive good stuff is nuts!!


I guess i should have differentiated between "plinking" and "practicing".

I "plink" with cheap Russian ammo... which is actually real target practice, because I never "spray and pray" or have "magazine emptying contests".

By the same token, to measure where my gun shoots and to get a feel for the ammo, I do practice with self-defense rounds at least twice a year. I also make sure my carry gun is a super reliable piece.


----------



## mojo4

Well that makes more sense. Couldn't imagine going to the range and blowing thru 3 to 4 hundred quality rounds!! My wallet passed out at the thought.


----------



## LongRider

BillM said:


> It is clear that you have no confidence in frangible ammo.


Not ALL frangible ammo, as there is some available that appears to hold some promise. I do have little confidence with Glasser because all the reputable tests I have studied reveal that it is an ineffective man stopper. But I have no bias against frangible ammo. If any proves to reliably and consistently be a more effective man stopper than HST I will switch.



BillM said:


> The FBI has always relied solely on penitration first.


Actually I believe penetration is only part of the FBI equation but obviously essential ingredient in stopping power. Barely breaking the skin of a violent assailant is not likely to deter their murderous intent and that is the only reason I carry. To stop threats to the well being of me and mine.



BillM said:


> I wanted that round to stop inside the armed robber not in a innocent patron but I knew it would be point blank and defencive rather than offencive. When I was a deputy, we carried Corbon jacketed hollow points.


Hollow point do that and have proven to exactly that consistently and reliably. Hollow point bullets where developed to stop "INSIDE" the target and to minimize ricochet of a miss. Intended to stop inside the attacker or flatten out on impact reducing the chances of a ricochet. That is the reason that law enforcement agencies universally require the use of hollow point ammo in all duty weapons. Because it reduces the risk of liability of a stray round injuring an innocent bystander with a ricochet or going through the assailant into an innocent. Point being hollow points are tried and proven. Didn't you say that was what your agency used for good cause. I see no point in trying out new tech with reduced stopping power to accomplish what hollow points have proven to do reliably and consistently in countless shootings.


----------



## LongRider

mojo4 said:


> Well linc I gotta disagree with you there. I buy cheap russian ammo for practice in my pistols and rifles and when I carry I carry the good stuff. I agree with squeezing off a few good rounds so you can get the idea on how it feels and performs but to only practice with expensive good stuff is nuts!! Unless you have 100 dollar bills falling outta your pockets.


As long as you distinguish between practice and reliability testing. If you can not afford to spend the money to assure that your carry ammo is 100% reliable in your carry weapon by firing at least 200 rounds of it through your carry weapon your life must not be worth much.


----------



## mojo4

Well longrider once again you don't make sense to me. What's the point in shooting 200 rounds of quality ammo? So the first 200 works but #201 might not. Its either good ammo or not and shooting 10 to 20 is for ensuring accuracy and getting a feel for the ammo not for proving it. But shoot away cause apparently you have more money than sense.


----------



## LongRider

mojo4 said:


> Well longrider once again you don't make sense to me. What's the point in shooting 200 rounds of quality ammo? So the first 200 works but #201 might not. Its either good ammo or not and shooting 10 to 20 is for ensuring accuracy and getting a feel for the ammo not for proving it. But shoot away cause apparently you have more money than sense.


Normally I shoot 250 rounds of any carry ammo in my EDC. I suggest you ignore what I say and take a couple of firearms training courses and do what Massad, Clint Smith or other reputable instructor says.

In my experience I have had ammo fail at the higher round counts after 60 rounds or so. I have had ammo FTF or fail after shooting 50 rounds without fail. In 37 years once I have had 250 rounds without fail through a weapon that ammo has never ever failed in that gun, unless I do something atrocious like limp wristing. While i check for reliability I also check for accuracy and bullet performance. As an example one gun did not like Golden Sabers my preferred carry ammo prior to Federal HST about every twelfth or thirteenth round it would give me a flier. 
Once is a fluke (15 rounds)
Twice is a coincidence (30 rounds)
Three times is a pattern (45 rounds)
Four times is proven unreliable (60 rounds)
Last thing I want to say is opps sorry about the kid lady must have been that thirteenth round flier got him. Another example was the reason I do not carry Rangers in any of my guns. They tend to separate in all my XD's .45 & 9mm or not expand when the gun is running hot. Ten rounds do not make my guns run hot.

While HST go bang every single time I push the boom button on any one of my guns and will hit exactly what I am pointing it at. Expanding to the diameter of a quarter no matter what I shoot it into or through every single time. I know that because I have tested it I KNOW they work. When my wife, daughters or my life is on the line I use what I KNOW works.

I'll do what I paid instructors well over a grand to teach me. What I know works. You of course are free to do whatever you imagine works for you.


----------



## zombieresponder

BillM said:


> Glasser safety slugs are a prefragmented round consisting of No nine or no six shot suspended in liquid teflon in a copper jacket with a hard teflon tip. They are high powered rounds and while they were developed for sky marshals, the design was not to prevent them from penitrating the hull of an airplane, (which they will with ease), they were developed to instantly stop a hijacker in a crowded airplane without penitrating the body cavity of the hijacker and hitting an innocent passenger behind him.
> 
> The teflon tip allows the round to penitrate heavy clothing or light body armor and compleatly fragment within eight inches of soft tissue. This effect delivers the compleat energy dump inside the body cavity of the agressor.
> Without overpenitration endangering people in the background.
> 
> I set up a test of my own useing a half inch peice of plywood with a gallon milk jug full of water immediatly behind it. I placed a peice of cardboard behind the milk jug to act as a background. Useing a 38 sp + p Blue Glasser round from a distance of eight feet , I fired through the half inch plywood into the milk jug.
> 
> The round penitrated the plywood intact and compleatly exploded the milk jug without any penitration of the cardboard behind it.
> 
> It made a believer out of me but I too was a skeptic.
> 
> I also watched a film of a woman killing a Russian Boar with a single shot from a 38 spl snub from twenty feet useing the same round. It dropped him like a rabbit.


My grandfather used .22 shorts to kill domestic hogs up to 900 pounds. One shot in the ear, instant dead pig. I could do the same thing with some pellet guns. I'm not going to do either though, since I've had hogs run off after having their hearts exploded with a .308 or 7.62x39. I've seen a couple drop on the spot with the same type of shot.

FBI states a minimum of 12" of penetration in gel. That translates to roughly 24" of penetration in plain water. Your test shows the overwhelming inadequacy of glaser for any serious use. A milk jug is only about 7-8", so it would only run 3-4" in gel...only 1/4th to 1/3rd of the required minimum. If it worked even reasonably well, it would be standard issue for LE somewhere.

Anyway, regarding .380 ammo. Carry plain FMJ. Even the absolute best loads on the market for .380 only expand a small percentage of the time. IIRC, the Gold Dot was the best of the bunch, but still very unreliable. Google 'theboxof truth" and look for .380 testing there. The man who owns that site is a pretty good guy, and corresponds with Dr. Martin Fackler(google him too by the way).


----------



## Resto

The worst gun for self defence is the one you left at home no matter what the caliber or ammo type (Quote from a "Gunsite Instructor")

My belief is that any firearm can kill with the proper training and atitude.
Personaly I like Federal Hydrashocks. Those Hornadys with the rubber tips are good too, the rubber tipped hollow cavity will keep the perps clothing from inhibitting bullet expansion.

I own alot of caliber hand guns but I carry .45 ACP and .44 spl.

Taurus 145 Millinium double stack 10 round DA. is my fave, I bought it when they were 1st interduced years ago, beats hell outa my Glocks. JMO
I have a 44 da revolver thats nice, Rossi makes a nice one.


----------

