# Wonder why...



## invision

There is absolutely nothing in the news regarding that we are now less than $200B from having $17 Trillion in debt...

But there is news that the amnesty program could cost over $6T.... Weee! weee!


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## Clarice

As long as the Fed keeps printing money the government will find a way to waste it.


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## Woody

At this point the debit means absolutely nothing. I mean, really, does anyone think that there is any possibility that it could ever really be paid back? It is growing exponentially now and with current economic conditions it can only get larger and larger. Fewer and fewer taxpayers and taxpaying companies and more going out than coming in. It is impossible to even stop it from growing! At 17 Trillion dollars and with the population of the US at roughly 310 million every man woman and child would have to cough up almost 55 thousand dollars to pay it back. Not going to happen.

So hang in there and prepare for whatever TPTB have planned to ‘fix’ the problem.


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## BillS

Immigration reform is a tool of the globalists who want to merge the US, Canada, and Mexico into the North American Union on the way to a one-world government.


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## CulexPipiens

Most of us realize it can't be paid back and is well out of control but back to Invisions point... the media freaked out over Squester and every time a vote is coming up on raising the debt it's "Econogeddan" or "financapocalypse" yet at nearly 17 trillion and counting and not a peep out of the media. If they really worred about the situation they'd have it on the news every day.

@Woody... 55K each... that's only for the 17 trillion number. The unfunded long term commitments (medicare, social security, etc.) put the true long term debt at somewhere around 115 trillion. See: http://usdebt.kleptocracy.us/ scroll down... although the info buttons at the top are interesting too.


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## BillS

I've seen estimates of unfunded liabilities anywhere from $60 trillion to $200 trillion. When you see those numbers you realize it's over for us as a nation. Especially when Obama won because too many people were worried about what was going to happen to their free stuff. 

Right this minute we're in a national emergency a hundred times worse than Pearl Harbor and we have a population totally unwilling to make the sacrifices necessary to save the country. And of course we have Obama trying to kill what's left of the economy with endless new regulations, new taxes, and obamacare.

And don't get me started about Muslim Brotherhood people in positions of influence in the current administration.


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## driftpin

We have a nation who is absolutely clueless as to the emergency we're in now. As long as they have their beer and Nascar, football..ect every weekend than everything is alright. The majority of the citizenry only watch local news, which are worse than MSNBC. It's amazing that the police, EMT/Paramedics, firefighters and teachers (public sector unions) think that they are going to be in the clear on this, their pensions will be cut before they ever take a dime away from some guy who's too strung out on heroin to get a job.


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## invision

driftpin said:


> We have a nation who is absolutely clueless as to the emergency we're in now. As long as they have their beer and Nascar, football..ect every weekend than everything is alright. The majority of the citizenry only watch local news, which are worse than MSNBC. It's amazing that the police, EMT/Paramedics, firefighters and teachers (public sector unions) think that they are going to be in the clear on this, their pensions will be cut before they ever take a dime away from some guy who's too strung out on heroin to get a job.


Hey wait a minute, I like football and watch NASCAR..... LOL... But I agree with ya!


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## Foreverautumn

invision said:


> There is absolutely nothing in the news regarding that we are now less than $200B from having $17 Trillion in debt...
> 
> But there is news that the amnesty program could cost over $6T.... Weee! weee!


It's not a "problem" to the MSM because a Democrat is in the White House. If an EVIL Republican (and Republicans are ALL evil, don't you know!) where in charge, they'd be screaming, kicking, and whining about "How come we've got all this DEBT? Why isn't congress getting SERIOUS about the DEBT?" They're whining, sniveling hipocrites, every single one of them.

And I'm not voting for someone just because they've got an "R" in front of their names, either. I'm not voting for my Congressmen ever again. I'm in a red state, and I'll vote Democrat before I'll vote for these entrenched, blue-blood, "go along to get along" RINOs. At least Democrats tend to be more intellectually honest about THEIR agenda!


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## seanallen

What we are seeing is survival of the fittest. The America as we know it cant last much longer. The only silver lining to this cloud is that this incredible economic pressure will be over one way or another. Our gvt has spent itself into near oblivion. I wouldnt be surprised to see masses of ppl dragging gvt officials out into the streets and putting them to death for their actions. This nation of ours is long LONG overdue for a purge!


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## BillS

seanallen said:


> I wouldnt be surprised to see masses of ppl dragging gvt officials out into the streets and putting them to death for their actions. This nation of ours is long LONG overdue for a purge!


That won't happen. If there was that kind of outrage to debt we wouldn't have had it in the first place.


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## ContinualHarvest

Honestly, if they can recoup the money tha the tax cheating big corporations are hiding, a good chunk of that debt could be wiped out over the next ten years.
Then they need to start telling congress that we aren't paying them over $100,000 a year to only work 180 days. That's bull-hockey. We "average Americans" work at least 5 days a week every week and feel lucky if we can get two or three weeks off a year, including sick time. Start cutting salaries at the top!


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## invision

ContinualHarvest said:


> Honestly, if they can recoup the money tha the tax cheating big corporations are hiding, a good chunk of that debt could be wiped out over the next ten years.
> Then they need to start telling congress that we aren't paying them over $100,000 a year to only work 180 days. That's bull-hockey. We "average Americans" work at least 5 days a week every week and feel lucky if we can get two or three weeks off a year, including sick time. Start cutting salaries at the top!


Won't happen, and to be honest I can't blame the corps for keeping their revenue made offshore, offshore. And it is not cheating, they have sub-corps in other countries, so technically it is the revenue of these sub-corps too. welcome to global business... I know that will tick you off, but when we have one of the most incredibly complicated tax systems, not to mention unfriendly ones toward businesses why in the heck would they want to bring it back to the US... Force them? That won't fly, they will pay their little exit fee and move their head quarters elsewhere... If you take all the money from every billionaire, every Fortune 500 and every millionaire - 100% of their profits - it wouldn't pay for a good chuck of that debt - sorry your wrong there too,,,

Let me prove my point. The Internet tax the senate just passed... Total BS the way it is defined in the proposed bill. First if I own a brick and mortar store, you are from out of state, come in and buy my goods - I will charge you my county's plus state sales tax... Now, if someone from a different county places an order, I have to charge them their county's sales tax and the state tax... It is a little bit of a head ache, but I only have 1 form to electronically file at the state level.... Now, this Internet tax they want to enable, I as an online business owner am going to have to keep track of which state you are buying from and I am going to have to send in a form to that state and a check at the end of the quarter... Imagine the headache and complications this is going to bring... So why do business that way? Why would I want to start an online business knowing what a freaking headache that would be on an accounting level...

Fix the tax issues first, then complain only if someone bends the rules...

Also, sorry - I worked around 64 days a year, and I make more than our president and Vice President combined... What is wrong with that??? It's IMO the American dream... If the guys in office aren't pulling their weight, get them out of office... Btw I am not a fan of career politicians, I am all for term limits...


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## Marcus

invision said:


> There is absolutely nothing in the news regarding that we are now less than $200B from having $17 Trillion in debt...
> 
> But there is news that the amnesty program could cost over $6T.... Weee! weee!


I actually heard something about it this weekend on the Larry Kudlow radio show. Turns out that the defict this year isn't going to reach $1 Trillion, but will only be ~$450 Billion. It has something to do with a trend towards increased Federal revenues since early this year. Projections are for the debt limit to now be hit late summer to the end of the year. It will also sabotage any Republican hopes for tying tax reform to a debt limit increase.

Given the way this administration is blatantly cooking various figures then revising them later, I am somewhat suspicious of the timing of all of it.

But long term, the unfunded liabilities will be the death knell of our republic. It's what comes after that has me worried.

Ancient Chinese Curse: May you live in interesting times.


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## invision

Marcus said:


> I actually heard something about it this weekend on the Larry Kudlow radio show. Turns out that the defict this year isn't going to reach $1 Trillion, but will only be ~$450 Billion. It has something to do with a trend towards increased Federal revenues since early this year. Projections are for the debt limit to now be hit late summer to the end of the year. It will also sabotage any Republican hopes for tying tax reform to a debt limit increase.
> 
> Given the way this administration is blatantly cooking various figures then revising them later, I am somewhat suspicious of the timing of all of it.
> 
> But long term, the unfunded liabilities will be the death knell of our republic. It's what comes after that has me worried.
> 
> Ancient Chinese Curse: May you live in interesting times.


I hadn't heard a deficit reduction of that large - not that I am not happy to hear it... Now we just need to have $500B in the black for oh.... Let's call it 20 straight years or so...

I guess I could be like - well I don't care cause I will be dead by then, but I have a daughter that I want to see be successful in her life... Oh, and I bleed red, white, and blue maybe?


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## driftpin

invision said:


> Won't happen, and to be honest I can't blame the corps for keeping their revenue made offshore, offshore. And it is not cheating, they have sub-corps in other countries, so technically it is the revenue of these sub-corps too. welcome to global business... I know that will tick you off, but when we have one of the most incredibly complicated tax systems, not to mention unfriendly ones toward businesses why in the heck would they want to bring it back to the US... Force them? That won't fly, they will pay their little exit fee and move their head quarters elsewhere... If you take all the money from every billionaire, every Fortune 500 and every millionaire - 100% of their profits - it wouldn't pay for a good chuck of that debt - sorry your wrong there too,,,
> 
> Let me prove my point. The Internet tax the senate just passed... Total BS the way it is defined in the proposed bill. First if I own a brick and mortar store, you are from out of state, come in and buy my goods - I will charge you my county's plus state sales tax... Now, if someone from a different county places an order, I have to charge them their county's sales tax and the state tax... It is a little bit of a head ache, but I only have 1 form to electronically file at the state level.... Now, this Internet tax they want to enable, I as an online business owner am going to have to keep track of which state you are buying from and I am going to have to send in a form to that state and a check at the end of the quarter... Imagine the headache and complications this is going to bring... So why do business that way? Why would I want to start an online business knowing what a freaking headache that would be on an accounting level...
> 
> Fix the tax issues first, then complain only if someone bends the rules...
> 
> Also, sorry - I worked around 64 days a year, and I make more than our president and Vice President combined... What is wrong with that??? It's IMO the American dream... If the guys in office aren't pulling their weight, get them out of office... Btw I am not a fan of career politicians, I am all for term limits...


Excellent post. There is something like 4.5T parked offshore but if the corps were to bring it in than they would lose more than half to taxes. Screw that when the govt just keeps on pissing through the taxes it takes in now so irresponsibly. I don't think politicians should make anymore than our military men. Give them the pay of an O-6. No one should come to Washington, D.C. so they can get rich as a public servant. Terms limits absolutely!


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## invision

driftpin said:


> Excellent post. There is something like 4.5T parked offshore but if the corps were to bring it in than they would lose more than half to taxes. Screw that when the govt just keeps on pissing through the taxes it takes in now so irresponsibly. I don't think politicians should make anymore than our military men. Give them the pay of an O-6. No one should come to Washington, D.C. so they can get rich as a public servant. Terms limits absolutely!


Thanks... I tend to get a little preachy sometimes.. But I think you added great to my statement if there is $4.5T offsite, and somehow we make corps bring it home - the taxation even at 35% which would be rediculous considering Facebook actually got money back this year.. would only be $1.5T a drop in the bucket against $17T...


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## ContinualHarvest

Well since the 70's the tax rate for corporations has been reduced by approximately 50%+. Prior to the 1960's the tax rate on the richest Americans was near 90%. They still made so much money they thrived and still lived the lofty life and the middle class got a piece of the pie that they helped earn.
Now, the tax burden falls on the middle class and some of the largest corporations get billions in refunds. I really don't see how our tax system does not benefit repatriating profits laundered through shell corporations.
Also, 1.5T$ per year would pay down the deficit in just over 11 years. It's not too bad of a plan. Most people get a mortgage for 15-30 years.
Paying taxes is patriotic. Some of the things that they do with the money are not so much.


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## Toffee

I think must large company owners would rather pay higher taxes than have to pay such a high death tax. My in-laws have realized that they will lose literally half of the small chain of stores they own and have built literally from the ground up when they do pass away. They are trying to change this in anyway they can right now.


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## driftpin

Hundreds of dairy farms and family farms are lost every day due to this asinine death tax. The children literally have to sell the farm to pay the taxes. Ridiculous.


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## swjohnsey

Our forefather fled Europe because most property was in the hand of a few. The U.S. is becoming like Europe. Let's have a 100% death tax so that everyone starts out even.

The way it is now the first $10,000,000 is exempt for a married couple.


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## cowboyhermit

Maybe your forefather, mine left Europe to escape oppressive governments like the one you propose.


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## invision

Toffee said:


> I think must large company owners would rather pay higher taxes than have to pay such a high death tax. My in-laws have realized that they will lose literally half of the small chain of stores they own and have built literally from the ground up when they do pass away. They are trying to change this in anyway they can right now.


Have them talk to an attorney and set up a "living trust with marital life estate" for their children, that is what I have, and a dear friend and her brother had too when her father passed away, her tax burden was less than a 1/3 of what it would have been without the trust... My parent's attorney and CPA agree my inheritance tax will be cut drastically because of the living trust too.

Now let me show you exactly how screwed up the tax system is IMO...

My father made his money work for him... I am 42 in June, well in June of 1969 my dad took the biggest risk of his life, he bought 2 doubles and a house to live in - that would also host the sign company he bought from his father in 1964, who had started the business in 1929 - running it out of the 2 car garage then, then expanding it to a 4 car garage in 1974. They bought those houses on 30 year land contracts, taking the rent from the 4 units, the income from the sign business, and their income as teachers and paid all 3 units off in 3 years. My father then turns around and buys 3 or 4 more that next year, again applying all the money towards the mortgages... by 1999 or 2000 he had a total of 250 units, all paid for. Some were single unit homes, doubles, triples, and a 8 unit building. which he decided to sell them all, sell all the sign equipment computers and stuff (but not the names or the client database) and retire to a custom built house in Clearwater FL... 2 years later he sold the house in Clearwater and was back up in Ohio, with the sign business running and buying house to either rent or flip on land contract.

Now when he made money from rent, sign business, and as a teacher as well as money earned from interest on land contracts, he paid regular taxes, he used the net income to build this (after tax)... he continued to pay each year on money generated from this enterprise. Then in 1999/2000 he had one HELL of a capital gains bill for selling the assets - over a million. Now, he is back at it, only smaller - last week he just bought another house so he is up to 15 apartments houses (all singles units) and has 25 under land contracts... guess what - he is paying taxes on the money earned from this enterprise.

Let me also state something, he was very wise in his investments - so he has stock, bonds, as well as CDs. In fact he has more than 10 - $10,000 jumbo CDs coming due every month - which the interest earned from them is capital gains - so again he is being taxed on the money he has already paid taxes on 1? 2? 3? 10? times??? The stocks all pay dividend - guess what - he pays taxes on that too as cap gains... and takes the remaining amount and rolls it back in for more of the same stock.

Now, I consider this to be extremely smart investing, and as an only child, I thank him for investing his money wisely because eventually I will inherit this mess. Now, this money has been taxed over and over again... the same dollars that paid for the first three houses, have paid for all of it over the course of his life... So why should I have to pay a death tax? Why shouldn't I be able to take advantage of a trust? Hasn't this money been taxed enough?


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## invision

ContinualHarvest said:


> Well since the 70's the tax rate for corporations has been reduced by approximately 50%+. Prior to the 1960's the tax rate on the richest Americans was near 90%. They still made so much money they thrived and still lived the lofty life and the middle class got a piece of the pie that they helped earn.
> Now, the tax burden falls on the middle class and some of the largest corporations get billions in refunds. I really don't see how our tax system does not benefit repatriating profits laundered through shell corporations.
> Also, 1.5T$ per year would pay down the deficit in just over 11 years. It's not too bad of a plan. Most people get a mortgage for 15-30 years.
> Paying taxes is patriotic. Some of the things that they do with the money are not so much.


Have you listened to Dr Carson's speech from the prayer breakfast? He nails it on the head in front of Obama in regards to taxes.

I take it you do not own a business? If you did, I am sure you would see it differently,

What most don't understand is that the extreme rich are making NEW money off of OLD money.... You getting a paycheck every other Friday is NEW Money and is taxed as earned income.. Where as Warren Buffet for example - a large amount of his income comes from dividends and the sale of equities after holding for a year, these stocks that pay dividends or are being sold were purchased from precious taxed NEW MONEY - thus it is OLD MONEY that has created NEW MONEY... So, your basically saying, that someone smart who takes his after tax NEW MONEY, invests it for a year or two, sells for more than he paid for and creates NEW Money should have the same tax as if it were just straight NEW MONEY similar to you working for a salary? Don't you see that this same money has already been taxed at the full amount once, now he is just using his net profits to make more money...

As for corporations, they must set up shell companies in foreign countries to be recognized as businesses operating in those lands. Take china for example - they must have a partnership with a local company before they can do business, that local company (which can also be partially owned by the government) gets a % of their revenue just because of the forced partnership, then the foriegn company also owes taxes there for income earned - So China gets a double dip of the money. That forgein company is a completely separate entity from the C-corp. The C-corp owns only stock in this company - and enough of it to be in control of it too... The money earned does not go to the US bank accounts of the stockholding company, they stay in the foreign company's bank accounts. The Stockholding company puts an assess value on the stock based on the net profit of the foreign company and records that as assets on its general ledger... It is solely the right of the foreign entity to keep its revenues overseas, nothing dictate nor should they for that matter be forced to pay US taxes since they are NOT a US-based company.

And IF THEY WERE forced to pay US taxes on foreign earned income - WTF would they want to stay a US Based company - hell I would move my company out of the US if I were forced to pay foreign and US taxes - it wouldn't be WORTH doing business outside the US... unless you were selling high dollar widgets or services like $300 per hour consulting...

As for $1.5T payed over 11 years paying off the debt. Your completely wrong, your forgetting the damn interest... The interest (which is all we are paying and have paid on this debt for a very long time) is almost half a TRILLION dollars... So do amortization calculation.... Try 20-25 years, I couldn't find one that will calculate past $10mm and I am to tired to do the math to show it...

I am not saying we shouldn't pay a taxes - but they need to be FAIR for all people. I am also saying that our tax laws are way too complicated, and need a rewrite. I am a 1% by definition - I don't live pay check to pay check but I am also not a multi-millionaire... But I shouldn't have to pay any greater percentage of taxation than someone making 20,000 or 50,000 or 100,000 or 200,000... 30% of 1,000,000 is $300,000.. 30% of 20,000 is $6,000... Explain why my success should be a penalty, and why you feel entitled to my rewards for my work efforts? I am making assumptions here - So, really sit there and think about that.. how would you HONESTLY feel if I came to your house and decided to take "my" share of what you have??? Did I earn your money - No Way, Should I be entitled to it? Hell No, it is yours. Should a fair reasonable amount of it be set aside to support our armed services and other government functions - Hell Yes. Should the USPS still be in business - Hell No - there is a huge cost center that should be shut down..

A flat sales tax would be optimum for this country - first off, at my income - I buy a hell of a lot of stuff - I would guess I spend more money a year than 2-3 above average incomes do, and 5-6 average incomes... I will site an example - we have 3 cars in our garage - all over $65,000 purchase price, all less than 2 years old... I have been married coming up to 6 year anniversary -We each owned a 1 year old car when we were married, 2 months later we became a 3 car household... together during this time we have owned 16 NEW cars. 7 Corvettes, 3 Armadas, 2 Lexus, 1 Tahoe, 1 Traverse, 1 Camaro SS, and 1 CTS-V... I guarantee by next year the Corvette and the Armada will be traded in on new ones... and I have been looking at the Ford F150 Rapture instead of my CTS-V - just don't like Fords though...


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## Marcus

One other thing invision didn't mention and that severely restricted the taxes due were the vast amount of deductions and tax credits that were available back in the 60s and 70s. 

The tax code is written to benefit those who own or run profitable businesses since there are still a huge number of deductions available for things such as car depreciation, mileage, entertainment expenses, etc. A business owner can take a client out for lunch, deduct the mileage if using his personal car (both ways), and get a deduction for some of the cost of the meals. So he gets a discounted lunch and gets reimbursed for his travel expenses. Compare that to someone who works for wages who gets no deduction for mileage or lunch. Ideally, a smart business owner will try to maximize his tax deductions and credits since he'll be able to afford a better lifestyle at a bit of a discount.

Like invision, I support a flat tax. My support is more due to creating a more efficient tax structure that is fair to everyone regardless of income or wealth.


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## goshengirl

Marcus said:


> Like invision, I support a flat tax. My support is more due to creating a more efficient tax structure that is fair to everyone regardless of income or wealth.


Indeed. :beercheer:


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## swjohnsey

Fair is in the eye of the beholder. For the rich guy everyone should pay the same amount. For the poor guy everyone should pay the same percentage. Until the 16th amendment everyone had to pay the same amount.


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## cowboyhermit

swjohnsey said:


> Fair is in the eye of the beholder. For the rich guy everyone should pay the same amount. For the poor guy everyone should pay the same percentage. Until the 16th amendment everyone had to pay the same amount.


According to this a flat tax is what the poor guy is looking for


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## goshengirl

I don't know of a single rich person who would think that paying the same amount is fair. It's not even remotely do-able. Flat tax is about paying the same percentage.

Methinks your class warfare hat is on too tight.


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## driftpin

It shouldn't matter what you make. If you want to pay a fair tax, it should be a flat tax. Not an adjustable progressive tax according to your current gross income but a flat, say 12% of gross. And once you pay taxes on it, that's it, none of this taxing the same product over and over again. The so called "poor" in this country would have to pay their 12% too. Is ridiculous we let people skate on taxes because they are too lazy to work or make just enough that they can get the EIC credits just because they popped out a few kids, the whole tax code is filled with crap like the earned income credit. Most of these people don't put in even close to what they get back. It's all about plundering from the people who work their ass off. How about we set up a tax that taxes wealth and you watch how fast these people you progressives admire so much set up off shore accounts. It won't be too long really before they do that anyways to tell you the truth. We are closer to having the situation in Cyprus right here in the states than most think. These progressives can't fleece the rich of their money quick enough but you watch who they target first. It will be exactly like what's going on now with the targeting of conservatives.


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## Toffee

invision said:


> Have them talk to an attorney and set up a "living trust with marital life estate" for their children, that is what I have, and a dear friend and her brother had too when her father passed away, her tax burden was less than a 1/3 of what it would have been without the trust... My parent's attorney and CPA agree my inheritance tax will be cut drastically because of the living trust too.


They have a whole group of attorneys working on it for them. They have bought into multiple life insurance policies, they give gifts to all of their children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren. This is also the reason they are paying off everyone's houses.
They payed for all of their children to go to college and become productive individuals and half of the cost for their grandchildren, no matter what college they attend. They tithe, donate things and still raise chickens and can everything from their fruit trees.
I love my in-laws if you couldn't tell haha.


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## invision

driftpin said:


> It shouldn't matter what you make. If you want to pay a fair tax, it should be a flat tax. Not an adjustable progressive tax according to your current gross income but a flat, say 12% of gross. And once you pay taxes on it, that's it, none of this taxing the same product over and over again. The so called "poor" in this country would have to pay their 12% too. Is ridiculous we let people skate on taxes because they are too lazy to work or make just enough that they can get the EIC credits just because they popped out a few kids, the whole tax code is filled with crap like the earned income credit. Most of these people don't put in even close to what they get back. It's all about plundering from the people who work their ass off. How about we set up a tax that taxes wealth and you watch how fast these people you progressives admire so much set up off shore accounts. It won't be too long really before they do that anyways to tell you the truth. We are closer to having the situation in Cyprus right here in the states than most think. These progressives can't fleece the rich of their money quick enough but you watch who they target first. It will be exactly like what's going on now with the targeting of conservatives.


Your absolutely correct! - A Fair/Flat what ever anyone wants to call it - tax, which is based on percentage - If it is 12%, I pay 12% and you pay 12% - no deductions at all... I am TOTALLY Fine with that.. 99.99% of all business owners would be fine with it, C level executives would be fine with it, most anyone should be fine with it, EXCEPT those not smart enough to understand the math or are on sometype of entitlement where they get more money back than they even pay in during a year...So why don't we make the change, demand the change?

HOWEVER, let me also respond to the statement about credits/deductions that are "benefits" of being a small business owner.. Why do I get to take 50% of every meal that I eat with a client off on my taxes and 56.5 cents back for every mile that I record - becase it is the same as the deduction I get for the expense of my call center and data centers? or the envelops and the office space in my house, electricity, internet, water, gas, garbage, email, etc etc etc... It is called the cost of doing business... and if you think the company you work for doesn't have sales people and executives that take clients out and write it off, your full of it.. or just clueless...what is the difference between your company doing it and 1-50 employee small businesses? hell your entire salary is written off too and your benefits and any contributions they make to your 401K... so really - you hate the fact that I get these "benefits"??? Every LITTLE thing from the staples to the building to the computer you use at work to the fork lift you may drive to the carpet or tiles you walk on is included in the cost of doing business... Without them, business wouldn't happen... They aren't benefits - If I am NOT out there hussling business - then I am not making money - ever single bit of it is business related - do you really think I want to eat a lunch or a dinner with a client (ok, there are two or three that are actually friends, but the rest? - seriously?)... See you have chosen your path, one where you know each day you are going to get paid, you go in and work for someone else, you have a boss, he hired you and he holds the control of firing you too... where as if I am not closing business, keeping business, or onsite billing consulting or sometype of service - I am NOT getting paid... Big Difference there... Successful Small Business owners aren't evil - they are leaders and risk takers. - It is like those who don't vote complaining about the current president.

And truly not every business owner is rich... How do you define rich? More money than you make? Well, what do you make?? $50,000 a year, $100,000, $500,000, a Million??? Rich can only be described from the rungs below... I say I make $500,000 a year... to someone making $50,000 a year - I am evil RICH!! but I am not... Do you know - 1 out of 2 business don't survive the first year - 1 out of 5 of those that make it past the first year, survive to year 5.... However, those of us who make it past the 1 year hurdle and the 5 year hump... can make good salaries but $500,000 a year is not rich brother... far from it. If you make $50,000 right now, and your spending habbits are 95-99% of the $50,000, I guarantee you that at $500,000 your spending habbits will be 95-99%, and once you climb up to the next level say $100,000 then $200,000 and then $500,000 - guess what - you then have new obligations where you can't go down to $200,000 or $100,000... house notes, car notes, jewerly, TVs, furniture, etc... you get use to eating at a resturant once a week where you put down a $20 tip, cause the two dishes with no alcohol drinks cost close to $150. Also, don't give me the Beaverly Hillbilly story of - well I wouldn't do that... cause I have seen it to many times - I higher in young guys as sales reps - $0 commission pay - they get up to $80,000 in commissions and then move on to a bigger company making $120-200K a year... I watch them as their cars go to smoking beaters to Hondas and Toyotas to Mercedes and Lexus... they go from one bedroom apartments to 3 bedroom condos to 5 bedroom houses...

What I truly don't understand though, is everyone will admit that the small business owner drives our national economy... but why does everyone hate this person or I should say are so envious of those who have become successful???


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## swjohnsey

goshengirl said:


> I don't know of a single rich person who would think that paying the same amount is fair. It's not even remotely do-able. Flat tax is about paying the same percentage.
> 
> Methinks your class warfare hat is on too tight.


Wasn't Thomas Jefferson rich? You need to study the history of the constitution.


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## swjohnsey

I would be surprised if many of the billionaires had any "income". So the guy who is struggling to pay his rent, keep gas in the car and feed his kids gets to pay 10% which means a cut back to beans and rice and the billionaire has to put off the new yacht.


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## driftpin

I would say that you hit the nail on the head with ENVY.


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## driftpin

swjohnsey said:


> I would be surprised if many of the billionaires had any "income". So the guy who is struggling to pay his rent, keep gas in the car and feed his kids gets to pay 10% which means a cut back to beans and rice and the billionaire has to put off the new yacht.


So what, he went out and busted his ass to go to school, make the money and start a business. It shouldn't matter one bit to you what someone else has to pay. Flat is fair.


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## invision

Toffee said:


> They have a whole group of attorneys working on it for them. They have bought into multiple life insurance policies, they give gifts to all of their children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren. This is also the reason they are paying off everyone's houses.
> They payed for all of their children to go to college and become productive individuals and half of the cost for their grandchildren, no matter what college they attend. They tithe, donate things and still raise chickens and can everything from their fruit trees.
> I love my in-laws if you couldn't tell haha.


They sound like good people... Seriously, with the Trust - it basically kills the death tax, if the attorneys are any good at all they should already be moving everything into one... It is a ton and I mean a ton of paperwork... but in the long run it is true...

The friend I which I mentioned above (who was last to a fatal car accident last year) in my example above - her dad own the best jewerly store in a 50 mile radius in the closets city to my hometown.. He made major major money - where my dad owned 250 houses in a town of 7000 houses, he owned 100 in a city of half the size... when he passed, eveything went to her and her brother... her mother had died first... very very little in regards to estate taxes...


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## driftpin

invision said:


> . See you have chosen your path, one where you know each day you are going to get paid, you go in and work for someone else, you have a boss, he hired you and he holds the control of firing you too... where as if I am not closing business, keeping business, or onsite billing consulting or sometype of service - I am NOT getting paid... Big Difference there... Successful Small Business owners aren't evil - they are leaders and risk takers.


And the business owners are the ones who have to go in, work 16-18 hours a day (without punching a time clock by the way) and having to go home and make sure they are following every regulation to a tee. Make sure their employees paperwork, insurance is in order, comp, taxes on and on.

Day in day out, weekends and holidays are not taken off and not getting time and a half for working them.

Btw. The only way the flat tax would work would be to push our current tax code in the trash so your saying the rich guy even showing an income is false.

I'm not saying punching a time clock is bad either. We need workers and we need men and women cut out to run businesses. It ain't all lollipops and sunshine as the boss pulling down 7 figures. It may be hard to see that on the bottom rung oft he ladder but if you don't like it, start climbing. If you fall get right up and do it again.


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## driftpin

If I remember right Jefferson inherited his wife's families money and slaves.


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## invision

driftpin said:


> So what, he went out and busted his ass to go to school, make the money and start a business. It shouldn't matter one bit to you what someone else has to pay. Flat is fair.


it's best not to argue with idiocy...

The thing is you have to have basic understanding of math - to understand a flat / fair tax system... the excuse you quoted is the typical lack of mental capacity for general math and fear of change... they guy busting his hump making $10 per hour, with 4 kids etc.... will have more take home pay than he ever got before in his life... however, if he is struggling now, he will be struggling under any economic tax, because he has overstretched his means... meaning the demands he put himself into in regards to his personal finances are GREATER than the means in which he makes... No offense but ENVY isn't the correct word, it is stupidity to overstretch one's self financially... If you know you only make X a pay check and all of a sudden you add another mouth - who is to blame??? So what do you do? If it were me, I would push myself into a better job - learning new skills for example - switch careers - add a second job even... To sit there and increase your expenses, and not increase your income is beyond comprehension to me...

My parents bought another house a couple weeks ago - nice little 3 bedroom 2 bath ranch... They posted it for rent immediately - even before they were ready to show... They had one couple come in who swore they had only been late for one rent payment over the last two years. This house will be renting for a modest $650 a month... their combined salaries could not pay that, their two car payments, plus food etc for their 4 mouths... My parents tried to not have them pay the $35 fee for the credit check, but they did... report came back every single month for the past 5 years they were late in rent, water, electricity... and had had 1 car repoed too... REALLY? They think they can afford the $650? BTW my dad knew the owner of the house they rent from now, and knows that it rents for $575... so how did they think they were going to afford $75 more a month in rent without additional income??? That is what I am talking about...


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## invision

driftpin said:


> And the business owners are the ones who have to go in, work 16-18 hours a day (without punching a time clock by the way) and having to go home and make sure they are following every regulation to a tee. Make sure their employees paperwork, insurance is in order, comp, taxes on and on.
> 
> Day in day out, weekends and holidays are not taken off and not getting time and a half for working them.
> 
> Btw. The only way the flat tax would work would be to push our current tax code in the trash so your saying the rich guy even showing an income is false.
> 
> I'm not saying punching a time clock is bad either. We need workers and we need men and women cut out to run businesses. It ain't all lollipops and sunshine as the boss pulling down 7 figures. It may be hard to see that on the bottom rung oft he ladder but if you don't like it, start climbing. If you fall get right up and do it again.


AMEN!!! Sounds like you own your own business or have in the past... You hit a hot topic there on vacations - I am leaving for Vegas in a day... I just found out the IT guy at one of my clients will be in Mexico for a vacation - guess who will now have to log into servers at 9PM EST on a Friday to do 4 hours worht of work... of course it will be Time and A Half... but still that was the timeframe I was suppose to be sitting down at Gordon Ramsey Steak... Now I have to explain that to the wife...


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