# Started a Homemade Hybrid PV System merely by chance



## Recon911 (Mar 15, 2013)

I got into Amateur Radio a few years back and started out with a handheld dual band VHF/UHF radio called a Quansheng TG-UV2. I have put about $200 into this radio over the years and it still works great. 
Then for my first rig, I bought a Yaesu FT-90, a small dual band rig that has four power settings with a high power of 50 watts. I didn't own a power supply at the time and I knew it would be weeks before I could come up with cash and get it shipped here to Hawaii since they don't have any Hams radio stores.
So I drove over to Battery Bill's off of Nimitz Highway and bought two used 102 A/h military grade AGM batteries for $60 +tax. I used a Sear Diehard 1150 Power Station to charge the batteries every couple days since my FT-90 didn't require too many battery to get on the air. Charging the batteries after a time was starting to become a real pain,so I bid on a 30 Amp solar/wind controller and got it pretty cheap. Then I bought a 40 watt solar panel on ebay and I believe I got it for $90 bucks + $19 bucks shipping here to Hawaii. It was the only vendor that didn't have restrictions for shipping to Hawaii/Alaska. 
So I set this up on my lanai with the solar panel on the inside of my bedroom window that faces the ocean and gets direct sunlight 50% of the day. As time went on,I kept expanding the system as I went along,with more to come.
A little bit of history first, my grandfather was a big time Ham operator in Kalamazoo,Michigan where I grew up most of my life as a kid. My father was in the Army and we seemed to move around a lot but kept moving back to Kalamazoo like during the Vietnam War. I used to hang out with my grandpa in his big old radio shack,all of these radios and a giant tower just behind the shed. I remember him having all of these QSL cards from all over the world tacked onto the walls inside. They were beautiful postcards with a Ham operators call signs going over the front of each card. On the back,there was usually a handwritten note about what they talked about during their QSO. That's how I got my first Novice license at the age of 11 but unfortunately, I never pursued it beyond that.
Then a few years ago, I moved here to Hawaii and experienced my very first tsunami and discovered that the first thing to go was cell phone service within minutes of a Tsunami Warning being issued. I studied for my license and passed it on my first try. It's a amazing world in Amateur radio and recommend that folks do the same because it's the only thing that does work before,during and after a disaster.
As time went on, I learned more and more about building my own PV system and before I knew it,I was adding more solar panels and batteries. Then I started buying parts on ebay to build wind turbines from what I learned on the internet. I bought my first inverter,a 3500/7000 watt peak inverter and heavy gauge cables. 
Now I have two battery banks,two controllers,two inverters,four wind turbines(two are for field use) and a bunch of solar panels. I just bought two new controllers so that I can expand even more. One is a 100 Amp controller with a built in voltmeter and the other is a 60 Amp controller with a built in amp meter. 
Now when I buy anything for my dual PV system now, I buy items I think I will use to take a house off the grid once I move out of this condo. I will say that I am very grateful for the location of my condo for so many reasons. I have a great view of the ocean and I get plenty of ambient sunlight and direct sunlight. I also get plenty of trade winds to power my wind turbines here also. 
So right now, I only worry about keeping the refrigerator,one TV and a few laptops running on my larger system and all of Ham radios going on the smaller system which isn't so small anymore. I was thinking about how much money I've put into this dual PV system and I would have to guess that I have less than $2000 into these two systems based on the fact that I built most of it from scratch including a 800 watt wind turbine and I'm in the process of building a 3500 watt vertical wind turbine from parts from discarded microwave ovens. I pull the magnetrons for the two big round magnets and the transformers from the two coils of magnet wire. 
If I had the room in my condo,there is a ton of more stuff that a microwave oven has to offer. I do however keep the blocking diodes and in some cases,I will keep the AC fans. I'm planning on buying a few acres of Ag land over here to eventually build a farm and home on but our kids have only two more years left in their current school and we decided to wait just a little longer before turning their lives upside down but moving away from their school and friends here.
The bottom line is this, even though I don't consider myself a prepper, I am into disaster preparedness as the bottom line basic requirement that everyone should be doing and I will tell you my reasons for that.
We've had six tsunamis in the last 3 1/2 years here in Hawaii and we've been very lucky. Lucky in the sense that we have not had any of the large tsunamis like that hit Hawaii in 1946 and 1962 so far. The Japanese tsunami that happen on March 11,2011 did take out a few houses and destroyed a few hotels in Kona, on the Big Island of Hawai'i but we still have not had the big one yet.
The Department of Emergency Management or the DEM as we call it here has been looking a several scenarios and the one of the most concern for the DEM isn't a disaster in Hawaii at all. It the "Big One" and we're talking about a big earthquake in California or even a large tsunami to hit the California coast. Hawaii relies on the shipping ports of Long Beach and Los Angeles for all of our food and goods here in Hawaii.
So they are now telling us Ham operators that we should try to have about 5 months worth of food and goods stored in each household because it only takes about four hours to clear all the shelves in the local stores here. Five months worth of food and goods is a very realistic goal for many reasons and if you've looked at our Gov't response to disasters since Katrina, there hasn't been any improvements at all. If those ports were to be destroyed, it would take a long time to repairs them and the 16 day rule is also in effect also. The 16 day rule is that it can take up to 16 days to load a ship,16 days to sail here and up to 16 days to unload the cargo. Of course, it can be done quicker for off loading,you still have to count on the 16 day rule.
A lot of people reading this will think,well,they could fly in food and supplies and that isn't really an option because if there isn't enough fuel for those planes to fly back to where they came from,then flying planes of food isn't really an option.
So what started as an ideal way of powering all of my radios has grown into a full blown off the grid emergency backup system that already has had a number of opportunities to prove itself especially during all of these tsunamis and two power outages. I am completely sold on the idea that it's cheaper to build an off the grid system that to pay a month electricity bill or taking out a $30,000.00 loan for a photovoltaic system that will need to be completely replaced by the time you payoff the loan. Plus, what sense is it to have all those panels up on the roof connected to the grid without a battery bank? When the power goes out and you loss your power also because a lot of these companies won't allow you to have a battery bank, just isn't being off the grid at all in my book. 
I believe that we all need to research our options before taking out loans and going for tax credits that doesn't seem to pan out to me personally from a retiree point of view. I believe that I am accomplishing my own goals but I can see light at the end of the tunnel and that expanding my system once I move into a house or starting farm is a very realistic goal and so is being off the grid for a lot less money than people think.
Semper Fi


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

A teacher I know put in a grid tie system with some sort of tax credits and other discounts the state gives to reduce the overall price of the system but I feel as you do, without a battery bank it's not what I'd want. I want to be independent altogether of the power company so the system I designed is only going to supply critical needs, two refrigerators, a freezer and a few LED lights in the kitchen/dining area. We are accumulating the equipment at this time and so far we have eight 195 watt 72 cell monocrystaline solar panels, a single stackable 4000 watt 120/240 volt pure sine wave Magnum Energy inverter/charger and one Morningstar Tristar 60 amp MPPT solar controller which can be paralleled if I want to add additional solar panels and battery bank in the future. I haven't gotten the batteries yet but it will total 16 golf cart batteries for 24 volts (that's what the inverter runs on) and total of 900 amp hours. I will be using pass through grid voltage as the inverter has a relay for this but I'm not selling my solar power to them. At least if grids go down or costs of kwh's gets too high for us we are not going to be beholden to the power company. I'm only sorry that we don't get enough steady winds here as I'd love to generate power that way as well. If our spring overflow was greater I'd even develop an overshot wheel to run an alternator to charge the battery bank too. I'll have a generator connection but it's not something I'd put total reliance on because any number of situations could cause a shortage of available fuel, fuel that's too expensive to buy or no fuel at all.


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## Recon911 (Mar 15, 2013)

Viking said:


> A teacher I know put in a grid tie system with some sort of tax credits and other discounts the state gives to reduce the overall price of the system but I feel as you do, without a battery bank it's not what I'd want. I want to be independent altogether of the power company so the system I designed is only going to supply critical needs, two refrigerators, a freezer and a few LED lights in the kitchen/dining area. We are accumulating the equipment at this time and so far we have eight 195 watt 72 cell monocrystaline solar panels, a single stackable 4000 watt 120/240 volt pure sine wave Magnum Energy inverter/charger and one Morningstar Tristar 60 amp MPPT solar controller which can be paralleled if I want to add additional solar panels and battery bank in the future. I haven't gotten the batteries yet but it will total 16 golf cart batteries for 24 volts (that's what the inverter runs on) and total of 900 amp hours. I will be using pass through grid voltage as the inverter has a relay for this but I'm not selling my solar power to them. At least if grids go down or costs of kwh's gets too high for us we are not going to be beholden to the power company. I'm only sorry that we don't get enough steady winds here as I'd love to generate power that way as well. If our spring overflow was greater I'd even develop an overshot wheel to run an alternator to charge the battery bank too. I'll have a generator connection but it's not something I'd put total reliance on because any number of situations could cause a shortage of available fuel, fuel that's too expensive to buy or no fuel at all.


 Aloha Viking,
I am one of three NCS's that host a EmComm Net on Sunday evenings on our statewide communications microwave link. I decided to change things up a bit, I think I sensed that everyone was getting a little burned out on ICS 213 Message Form handling and suggested that we talk about ways we prepare our homes and families in advance so that we are free to do our jobs as emergency communication operators or EmComm Amateur Radio operators. We talked about food storage to incorporating learning to tie different knots into our CERT courses here in Hawaii. Currently,only the Boy Scouts of America has such a course.
Today, I want to talk about inverters,which I didn't describe above and I want to state why I have each one. For the larger battery bank, I bought the Accurate Tools AT3500,which is a 3500 watt inverter which has a 7000 watt peak. 
What I did to decide which inverter I needed, I made a list of everything that was a "must need to use" appliances after a disaster and I looked for any label that stated either watts,volts or amperage. I live in a highrise condo high in the clouds above Waikiki Beach. 
So the object was to try to make life during a disaster and after a disaster as close to normal as possible to lower the stress levels within the family unit. The other factor to consider is that my family will have more and better information than the general public or even law enforcement would have access to. 
Sometimes,there is things going on during a disaster that,well, maybe we are better off not knowing about. So keeping the stress levels as low as possible will allow me to do my job more effectively in my belief. Please keep in mind that our biggest concern isn't earthquakes,volcanoes or even hurricanes, it's tsunamis,six in three years so far or about two a year. One small one and one larger one each year but I have to say the State of Hawaii has been oh so very lucky so far. 
Getting back on point here, I figured the biggest appliance that I had to worry about was the refrigerator in the kitchen for obvious reasons and then second was all of my Ham radios. Both of these are equally important for different reasons and lets not forget the TV's and DVD players to keep my children entertained but I got that covered with portable battery operated DVD players,lol.
Let's start with the refrigerator,22 Cu.Ft. 1995 Whirlpool model,6.5 amps, 60 Hertz. For the motor to start, it requires at least 20 amps to start or three times the stated amperage.It's only after it's running,then it uses 6.5 amps of current. 
Figuring out all of my radios is a lot more complicated but to make it more simple,lets say that each radio uses about 10 amps at transmit and up to 2 amps to receive. I can only transmit one radio at a time and I can't effectively listen to more than 3-4 frequencies at anyone time. 
Let see, I have 1300 watts of turbine power and 500 watts of solar power,for a total of up to 1800 watts of possible generating power. I was told by many that you should use no more than 60% of your inverters capacity and no more than 50% of the capacity of each of your battery banks. That you should buy an inverter that is twice the power of what you actually need as long as you match up your battery banks A/h's properly. 
So,later on, I bought a Triplite 1200 watt inverter,which I love a lot. It has a fan that only comes on when needed and not all the time like my larger inverter. It has a series of lights to tell you the power levels of your battery bank that it's running off of,which is a nice feature.
I don't know if I'm explaining all this correctly but I had some really great help from a friend who knew so much about the subject and in Ham radio for over 35 years too.
So I am a firm believer that if you really want to save money and don't want to worry about a loan for solar panels that only really benefits the power company, then build your own system like I did and expand it as you go along. Each time you add more solar panels,add more batteries,then eventually upgrade your controllers and so on. The bottom line here is that this is the surest method and the most affordable method to go off the grid and kiss those electric bills goodbye!

I highlighted a section of your quote to point out something and that you are not done shopping yet. Your charge controller isn't big enough for the amount of amperage of your solar panels without additional relays. Your eight 195 watt solar panels are roughly 12 amps each and you are going to connect all of those panels to a 60 amp controller. Let's see, 8 times 12 amps each comes to 96 amps if all of those panels were in direct sunlight. I wanted to point this out before you hook up your controller to all of those panels. At the same time, you can stack up more Grid Tie Inverters and hardwire them into your main breaker box and then have the power company disconnect you from the grid. If you are lucky, they will offer you a way for you to keep your battery bank and make a few bucks on the side by buying up your excess power that you're generating and a vertical wind turbine would be a big benefit for that cause. Plus a vertical wind turbine isn't usually govern by any HOA's or Home Owner Associations because they can be installed in a backyard,just above ground level.
These are the reasons why I feel that building your own system is a lot more cost-effective than buying one at almost 10 times the actual cost of the equipment. Plus, I like being able to say that I built it myself with my own bare hands,lol.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

Actually the controller is enough for the panels as the total MPPT current for each panel is 5.38 amps X 8 = 43.04 amps at 36.2 volts. The total optimal full sun output of the eight panel array is 1560 watts, the 60 amp controller is good for up to 1600 watts for a 24 VDC output so at this point I'm safely within it's boundaries. As to the inverter, as I mentioned it supplies 120/240 split phase and it's current surge capabilities are: 5800 watts for 5 sec., 5200 watts for 30 sec., 4800 watts for 5 min. and 4500 watts for 30 min. Total amp surge for 1 mil. sec, line to line 70 amps and line to neutral 120 amps. For 100 mil. sec surge, line to line 40 amps and line to neutral 72 amps. I fully understand Locked Rotor amps in conjunction with motor start amps. because of years of working with electric motors in air handling units and air conditioning units. This is one of the main reasons I bought an inverter that supplied split phase voltage as I will use separate circuits for each refrigerator with the freezer on the circuit of the refrigerator that uses the lowest running amps. Our refrigerators are both KitchenAid, the newest is 22 cu.ft. and it's FLA is 7.1 and the older one is 20 cu.ft. is dated 1994 and it's FLA is 6.5 and the Kenmore freezer is FLA rated at 5 amps. According to solar usage charts of the inverter they figure 1/3rd average run time for 24 hours and that's how I figured my system design on. Actually the 900 amp hour battery bank figures out at around 2.5 times draw down requirements so if charge rates are optimal I should be able to only have around 20% draw down. The system we have on our motor home we often drew down to 50% on four 6 volt golf cart batteries, series/parallel for 12 volts and 450 amp hour and still got a daily full recharge with four 100 watt 44 cell panels.  I mentioned using LED lights for interior lighting because as we can afford to we are changing most all of our lights to these as they are even more efficient than CFL's. Where we had been using 40 to 60 watt incandescent bulbs we are putting in 25 watt LED's that use only 2 to 3.5 watts. The reason I mention cell count on solar panels is that I found by experience of the motor home solar system, which we used mainly in mid to late spring and early to mid fall when the sun was still quite low in the sky, we were getting excellent charges even with less solar charge time. The full sun load voltage of the 44 cell panels is a bit over 21 volts, for 32 and 36 cell panels their voltage is around 16 to 17. On not so perfect sun days the 44 cell panels will produce about what a full sun day produces on the smaller cell count panels, producing enough voltage on slightly cloudy or hazy days to get the battery banks up to good charge levels. The last time we were out on the desert in Northern Nevada was about 2008 in the fall, in the six weeks we were boondocking I only had to start the motor home engine once to charge the house batteries because of clouds and a dusting of snow and that's with two of the older batteries in not so good of condition.


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## talob (Sep 16, 2009)

Viking, I have a question for you, to begin with I'm looking at putting in a small 12v system in the basement for backup power for a few things, batterys I'm looking at are 6v golf cart batterys for a total amperage of 390 or 585 and enough solar panels and maybe a wind generator backup to support them. Now my question is the lights, been looking at CFL's and LED's now you know there's a huge difference in price and I understand LED's are more efficeint where I'm confused is light output, you mention 25w LED's is 25w the same light wether it be incadecent CFL or LED? 25w just dosent sound like much light I'm on a steep learning curve here with all of this.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

talob said:


> Viking, I have a question for you, to begin with I'm looking at putting in a small 12v system in the basement for backup power for a few things, batterys I'm looking at are 6v golf cart batterys for a total amperage of 390 or 585 and enough solar panels and maybe a wind generator backup to support them. Now my question is the lights, been looking at CFL's and LED's now you know there's a huge difference in price and I understand LED's are more efficeint where I'm confused is light output, you mention 25w LED's is 25w the same light wether it be incadecent CFL or LED? 25w just dosent sound like much light I'm on a steep learning curve here with all of this.


It's best to figure out what your power needs are, it's a formula that considers total amps needed and run time of the equipment you'll be using on the backup system. Deep cycle batteries such as the golf cart batteries are rated in amp hours, as an example I have four 6 volt 225 amp hour golf cart batteries connected series/parallel for 12 volts and a total of 450 amp hours. With a full charge to begin with the 450 amp hours ideally will provide a total time of 450 hours at a 1 amp draw down. To figure amperage if what you are using is rated in watts divide the watts by the voltage used, i.e. 100 watt light divided by 120 VAC would be .83 amps. It's important that you have an figure for amp hour needs when it comes to sizing solar panels or wind generators, with an isolation diode both can be used and very often those diodes are built into solar systems or generators so that no backflow of current will go into panels that are shaded, generator not turning or generator producing current but not solar array. Of course you will need a controller to regulate power generated by panels and I recommend one that is MPPT which means Maximum Power Point Tracking, these types of solar controllers have the ability to boost charging current by using the higher voltages like that of higher cell count solar panels, these panels can produce in full sun far more voltage than a 12 volt battery can be charged with. As to the LED 25 watt lights, I presently don't have an incandescent light to see the difference but lights are rated in lumens as to brightness. The reason we are installing the 25 watt LED's is for economics and they are in areas that don't need greater wattage to see and do things. I will say this, I just replace a relatively new CFL recessed flood lamp with had a 15 watt rate with an LED flood which has a 13 watt rate and it is much brighter. The thing about CFL's is that as they age some will yellow and often take longer to get up to full light.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

Recon911, about 55 years ago when I was 15 or so I had a Novice license, KN7RHK. I can't remember the name of the receiver I had but it was a great radio with umpteen tubes, it had a variable BFO that I could use for SSB and it had an excellent voltage control system to reduce warm up frequency drift. I made my own 75 watt transmitter out of Navy surplus parts, I lived in Bremerton, Washington and at that time there was a guy that bought and sold stuff removed from Navy ships as the upgraded to new equipment. I seem to remember getting only one QSL card which I think came from a guy in California. Thing is, at 16 I had a 14 year old pretty blond girlfriend which basically distracted me from learning to receive my general class license, learning code was bad enough for me but among other things the girlfriend put an end to my ham radio days. What's really interesting is what Michael Savage had to say about old girlfriends we may lust over, he said they are probably overweight and not so pretty now. I found out that that pretty slender blond girl is now 200 pounds.  But looking on the bright side, my wife and I have been happily married as of the 6th for 39 years.


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## Recon911 (Mar 15, 2013)

talob said:


> Viking, I have a question for you, to begin with I'm looking at putting in a small 12v system in the basement for backup power for a few things, batterys I'm looking at are 6v golf cart batterys for a total amperage of 390 or 585 and enough solar panels and maybe a wind generator backup to support them. Now my question is the lights, been looking at CFL's and LED's now you know there's a huge difference in price and I understand LED's are more efficeint where I'm confused is light output, you mention 25w LED's is 25w the same light wether it be incadecent CFL or LED? 25w just dosent sound like much light I'm on a steep learning curve here with all of this.


 Aloha talob,
You don't mention above where you'll be placing those 6 volt golf cart batteries but you did say that you were going to set up in your basement. If you're like me and have space restrictions, you might want to look at AGM batteries instead of Lead Flooded batteries due to gassing especially during equalization of your batteries. 
That is why I bought the military-grade AGM's for data systems here in Hawaii. We have a ton of military bases and they seem to replace those batteries every 2 to 2 1/2 years whether they need to or not,even though they are rated for ten years. 
I use a new military technology Pulse Charger to equalize those batteries and to keep a 13.7 volt float charge on them and since my radios require 13.8 volts, this works out very well for me. If you are putting the batteries in your basement, I would recommend either the Blue Tops or the Red Tops AGM's because they are sealed and you can stack them on their sides in a tight space and make it easier to wire them up. 
Besides being a health safety issue in your basement,these also work well to prevent theft also. Batteries and solar panels have a tendency of growing legs and disappearing.
As a repeater owner, I can tell you that from experience. You also might want to check with your city's traffic division and ask if they are throwing away any of their traffic signal boxes or if you can buy one. They are vented,locked by a key and they have a coating inside of them to prevent batteries from accidentally going to ground. Some of them even have a hurricane rating on them if the labels haven't wore off over time and are great to use for repeaters on top of buildings or mountains.
I hope this post was helpful and thanks for helping to turn this into a good thread. Mahalo to you.


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## Recon911 (Mar 15, 2013)

Viking said:


> Recon911, about 55 years ago when I was 15 or so I had a Novice license, KN7RHK. I can't remember the name of the receiver I had but it was a great radio with umpteen tubes, it had a variable BFO that I could use for SSB and it had an excellent voltage control system to reduce warm up frequency drift. I made my own 75 watt transmitter out of Navy surplus parts, I lived in Bremerton, Washington and at that time there was a guy that bought and sold stuff removed from Navy ships as the upgraded to new equipment. I seem to remember getting only one QSL card which I think came from a guy in California. Thing is, at 16 I had a 14 year old pretty blond girlfriend which basically distracted me from learning to receive my general class license, learning code was bad enough for me but among other things the girlfriend put an end to my ham radio days. What's really interesting is what Michael Savage had to say about old girlfriends we may lust over, he said they are probably overweight and not so pretty now. I found out that that pretty slender blond girl is now 200 pounds.  But looking on the bright side, my wife and I have been happily married as of the 6th for 39 years.


 Aloha Viking,
I believe that you're in a good location for a lot of those Navy parts than I am because they try to strip those ships as much as possible,especially any electronics and wood before sinking them somewhere along the West Coast to make artificial reefs out of them. I belong to a few associations of US Navy ships that I've had the pleasure to serve on during my career in the US Marines. Given my MOS, I've had the pleasure on serving on a lot of aircraft carriers and subs. The aircraft carriers,two of them are now floating museums of sorts in San Diego and here in Honolulu but some of the others didn't qualify for the same treatments. 
As far as the submarines goes, I am hoping to get some VLF radios and equipment to lay some wire off the coast here and do some very far away QSO's. The current record is just over 10,000 KM and I want to do something that is unique for my location,here in Hawaii. Plus my language skills would really come in handy for something like that someday.
On your brighter note, I think congrats is in order here,man,39 years, yes, I can see that with my current wife also. We've been together like 13 years now and have two beautiful kids,one girl and one boy and stop,lol. Their both in elementary school here and my wife will hit the big 5-0 this summer. We both waited later in our careers to have kids even though I have a daughter from a previous marriage,whose turning 14 this summer. She's still in California and her mother is as stubborn as a mule still,lol.
Yep, my wife only weighs about 108 lbs and I guess I'd be very surprised or disappointed if I went to any of my class reunions,so I don't go there,lol. Yep,this one's a keeper,lol.


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## talob (Sep 16, 2009)

Thanks Viking, good info, sounds like our systems would be about same size, one more question, seems I read somewhere sizeing solar panels, panels about 1.5 watts what the batterys are rated at? The difference in the lights is good to know now just gotta figure if difference in price will justify LED's. Recon911, yeah I allready figured AGM batterys seems the advantages justifys the price, same with MPPT charge controllers, Recon you mention the sinking of ships to build reefs, a few years ago I saw them sinking the Ariskiney (aircraft carrier) on the History channel I believe it was off the coast of Florida, now everytime I buy a piece of steel I think about that and wanna cry at the price.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Recon911 said:


> A lot of people reading this will think,well,they could fly in food and supplies and that isn't really an option because if there isn't enough fuel for those planes to fly back to where they came from,then flying planes of food isn't really an option.


There are retired airliners that are converted into tankers that can haul fuel. It makes the cost of the fuel to go up a LOT, but at least you *have some*. Most of these guys are civilian operators that contract to the gov't.

Major airlines also do a process called "tankering", where a plane loaded with a light load of passengers or freight will take on extra fuel at an airport where fuel is cheap (like Houston) and fly an extra 20,000lbs (or whatever) to a place where fuel is expensive (like Newark) to be put on another airliner (of the same airline, since they already paid for the fuel they just hauled). It sounds inefficient, but the bean counters figure it saves them money. It's S.O.P.


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## Recon911 (Mar 15, 2013)

LincTex said:


> There are retired airliners that are converted into tankers that can haul fuel. It makes the cost of the fuel to go up a LOT, but at least you *have some*. Most of these guys are civilian operators that contract to the gov't.
> 
> Major airlines also do a process called "tankering", where a plane loaded with a light load of passengers or freight will take on extra fuel at an airport where fuel is cheap (like Houston) and fly an extra 20,000lbs (or whatever) to a place where fuel is expensive (like Newark) to be put on another airliner (of the same airline, since they already paid for the fuel they just hauled). It sounds inefficient, but the bean counters figure it saves them money. It's S.O.P.


 I've been asking questions about your theory above and was told that this idea is possible in other places but just not here. It seems that tanker ships brings over the crude oil and then it's put through the different refineries here in Hawaii. What surprised me was all the different types of fuels that are manufactured here in Hawaii. Everything from E10,which is made from our sugarcane to JP5, to rocket booster fuel for our floating space launch pads to Barking Sands.
This "tankering" seems pretty primitive as compared to how it's actually done here in Hawaii and how everything here is monitored through the State Warning Point. Now that we are building a LNG base just offshore here,there are so many ways that Hawaii has become the leading "Green" state in the USA.
The other issue that came up with your idea was the lack of space at our airports to conduct such an operation with this "tankering". We barely have enough room here to support the day to day operations at our airports here. 
In regards to the importance getting fuels here to Hawaii, one must first look at the logistics of how everything is done here in Hawaii. You would think that Pearl Harbor would be the most important harbor in Hawaii and even I was surprised by some of the things I learned this past Saturday. That one of the most important harbors on this island was actually the harbors that are located at the Campbell Industrial Park at Barbers Point in Kapolei and Sand Island in Honolulu.
It is my hope that we find ways to stop using crude oil here to generate electricity,which is our main source for producing electricity on Oahu. We do have some new and very large wind farms like in Kahuku but we had a very major setback last year when the battery bank,which was a very large building,burned to the ground and the fire department wasn't allowed to put it out for fear of spreading chemicals from the runoff of trying to put that fire out. They had to let it burn to the ground and could only standby and keep an eye on it. No one is really sure what caused that fire but it is my hope that they rebuild it and make it safer and better than before.
I am actually hoping that this island becomes like Kauai someday and is self-supported by way of Hydroelectric power generation through a residential co-op. Hydroelectric energy is safe,reliable,clean and most of all,maintenance free. 
Any option outside of burning crude oil should be explored to help our environment and put money back into the pockets of residents and the state instead of it going back to the middle east,where they appear so ungrateful for all the money we give to them. It is my hope that all that oil someday becomes as worthless as the land and people that it comes from. We need to learn to keep our money here in America and stop all the spending and money flows to countries whose citizens would rather see us dead than alive.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Recon911 said:


> I've been asking questions about your theory above and was told that this idea is possible in other places but just not here.


Google: "airline fuel tankering"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_planning
"Tankering fuel:
When fuel prices differ between airports, it might be worth putting in more fuel where it is cheap, even taking into account the cost of extra trip fuel needed to carry the extra weight. A flight planning system can work out how much extra fuel can profitably be carried. Note that discontinuities due to changes in flight levels can mean that a difference of as little as 100 kg (one passenger with luggage) in zero fuel weight or tankering fuel can make the difference between profit and loss."

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/224661/
"As long as the fuel price goes up proportionally, tankering practices will not have changed. Some airlines now choose to make the investment in the software and manpower necessary to tanker."

"I once had a flight from FRA to TSE. We had to take as much fuel as possible with us because there was no fuel available there in TSE. So we had 98 tons of fuel (usually we need around 50 tons) on board. I asked the dispatcher how much more trip fuel we needed just to carry these 48 tons of extra fuel. He said: trip fuel is increased by roughly 7 tons!! So the fuel needs to be a lot cheaper to carry the fuel with ya that it is actually worth it.... "

"Inter-island flights in Hawaii do tanker fuel. Fuel is cheaper in HNL. Also, fuel is limited on the neighbor islands as the airports have small fuel farms and the only refineries in the state are on Oahu. All fuel is barged over everyday and has to be tested. If the fuel is contaminated, that whole shipment is rejected and will cause shortages. With more overseas flights flying non-stop to the neighbor islands, it is better to tanker fuel and save the limited amount on the neighbor islands for the overseas flights."

So........... I did answer your question you had posted earlier, you just didn't really let the answer sink in. It is possible to bring fuel to Hawaii, but it WILL COST YOU.

Is it possible to fly fuel to any location where it is needed? Sure it is, but be prepared to pay!!!


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## zimmy (Aug 17, 2012)

*Hybrid PV*

PV modules are at a all time low, buy as many as you can afford and then some. Hurry! Time is short.


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## Recon911 (Mar 15, 2013)

Aloha zimmy,
Nice offer but I got one better here in Hawaii. I buy used 240watt solar panels for $60 cash out the door but the problem is that I've ran out of room for anymore solar panels. I wish I had more room for more because these prices isn't going to last forever.
In the meantime, I built two more wind turbines for mobile emergency communications use. One is 300 watts wind turbine on a tripod and the other is 800 watts wind turbine mounted on a spring-loaded folding quadpod stand. I built it to provide emergency backup power for the 2013 ARRL Field Day event weekend. I will see if I can post all the pictures and all four videos from my iPhone app to this post for all to see. 
I know own a shop next to Sea Life Park,where I build wind turbines while watching the ocean from inside whenever I take a break or get too hot to work.
Anyway,my wind turbines were the talk of the town,especially since both can be broken down together and transported together within the trunk of the same vehicle and set up within minutes. I had them going through a 100 amp controller and they worked all night long with no problem. I am just fascinated with the idea of making my own electricity and why not? 
I've been making my own gas all of my life ,why not make my own electricity? Right? Lol!


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## Recon911 (Mar 15, 2013)

Here are the pictures I promised.

Mahalo


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