# Reloading Help?



## biobacon (Aug 20, 2012)

So I bought the RCBS reloading kit and it came with the Speer reloading manual. It says the load info is only good for Speer bullets. Does this mean I will need to buy a different manual for each type of bullet that I use? I dropped around $800 on the RCBS kit, 3 dies and holders, caliper, Sonic cleaner, some primers, a few other tools and I'm thinking wow I have to go buy another book now?


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

You can use bullets from other manufacturers with the Speer loading data.

I'd also go online and download manuals and reloading data from other sources too. reloadammo.com is one of my favorites. Go to his "link" section and hit all of the powder manufacturers. Most of them have reloading data for their powders for free. 

Most are PDF files so you can keep them on your computer or Nook. I also printed some of them up to keep in a notebook.

enjoy!

Steve


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## biobacon (Aug 20, 2012)

Thanks for the info and the links


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## forluvofsmoke (Jan 27, 2012)

Each bullet manufacturer has a bit different specifications on the weight and shape of a particular style of bullet, so it does effect the chamber pressures and muzzle velocity developed with a given powder type and weight of charge. A possibly overlooked value which should be a high priority, especially with handgun rounds, is barrel length...longer barrels used for a load developed for a shorter barrel can generate excessive chamber pressures and possibly create catastrophic firearm failure. Of lesser importance, but worth consideration, primer and case manufacturer can add to the equation, so they cannot vouch for changes in any components used in published load data, or the safety of the round when fired.

Long answer in short form...yes, you need established reload data for the bullets you will be using. To do otherwise would be risky at best. NRA (if I recall correctly) used to have a reloading guide for pistol, revolver and rifles, including wildcat and modified calibers. I can't remember for sure, but it may have included standard shotgun loads. The issue I referenced was a late 1980's edition.

I have no hands-on reloading experience, but did a lot of researching on it in the early 90's and borrowed the book I mentioned from a buddy...wish I still had access to that reloading guide or a revision of the same...was about 300 pages of great technical info and data, including muzzle velocities, muzzle energy and down-range velocity and energy, and what components were needed for said round to achieve that performance. Down-graded loads for target or short-range were given for many calibers (generally not for semi-auto pistols, as they tend to malfunction with reduced charges), as well as full-charge maximum recommended loads.

Hope this clears any confusion you may have about reloading to known values for tested rounds, and the importance of using the same components as are used for published load data.

Good luck and enjoy the freedom of reloading.

EDIT: I see there are others with more info...didn't think about online data...DUH!!!


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

First, you will not save anything by reloading, you will just shoot more. As a new hand loader you will likely find more stuff that you want, why should this be any different than any other hobby. Enjoy, you have a lot of fun ahead of you.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

I've been reloading for over 40 years now. I have several manuals (one is from Speer). Speer uses their own bullets for testing just as most bullet manufacturers use their own. My Hornady manual only list Hornady bullets and, surprise, surprise!, my Hodgden manual lists only Hodgdon powders (and does not say what brand of bullet they used in testing). You _can_ substitute bullets from other manufacturers if you do it carefully.

So, should a person decide to substitute 180 grain Hornady bullets in place of the 180 grain Speer bullets listed in the manual the proper way to do it is to make up some minimum loads to check pressures then increase the powder charge 1/2 grain at a time until you've reached your maximum safe load.

I do this by loading a single cartridge at the minimum listed load, fire it then check for signs of excessive pressure. If there are none I'll load another one with 1/2 grain more powder and shoot it. Again, if there are no signs of excessive pressure I'll load one more with 1/2 grain more powder and repeat the procedure, working up the charge level at 1/2 grain increments until either, (a) I begin seeing signs of excessive pressure (at that point I back the charge off to the last safe charge level and go no higher), or (b) I reach the maximum listed powder charge for that cartridge/powder/bullet combination. I go no higher than that.

Incidentally, the same procedure should be followed when using Speer bullets. NEVER just open the manual and begin charging cases with the maximum listed load.

As I pointed out above, some manuals don't list the brand of bullet they worked up their loads using. They'll simply identify it by weight and shape. The reloader is responsible for working up loads from a safe minimum. If the manual has no minimum load data then begin at ten-percent under the maximim load level listed and work your way up from there.

forluvofsmoke: I have never heard of the barrel length/chamber pressure issue you are describing. Can you give a source for that info?


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## forluvofsmoke (Jan 27, 2012)

_*"forluvofsmoke: I have never heard of the barrel length/chamber pressure issue you are describing. Can you give a source for that info?"*_

It was probably in the old reloading guide I referenced, as that was one of the only sources for info on reloading I had access to back then. I think where the pressures could run to wild figures would be if a round was loaded for a 4" barrel revolver, then fired in a 10" (for example). If memory serves me, this guide listed barrel lengths for handgun rounds, and possibly rifles as well, though they rarely vary with exceptions being custom rifles.

There was also a lot of mention in regards to rounds chambered for older models of revolvers, due to lack of strength for higher pressure loads. They also talked about .38 special revolvers and use of .38 +P loads...obvious no-no there to anyone possessing common sense, but you never know who just might try it...call it the gene pool at work.

Part of the technical data in that manual included a lot of info regarding how barrel length effects chamber pressure, muzzle velocity and energy, as well as trajectory...longer barrel being higher on all accounts for a given load/bullet than a shorter barrel. They used the copper-crusher method for determining chamber pressures, so I was inclined to trust the source.

I do know that it can cause issues in rifles. My dad had a custom-built 30-06 Springfield (an Anniversary gift from my Uncle) based on a Mauser action which had a 34" tapered sporting barrel. He used factory loads (Remington and Winchester). After repeated spent cartridge hang-ups in the chamber with this new rifle, and having to clear the chamber with a cleaning rod after nearly every shot, he decided to take the rifle to a local gun smith and have him check it out. The ejector worked fine with live ammo, so he checked tolerances in the chamber and found nothing out of spec. He told my dad to bring in his spent brass and found signs of excessive chamber pressures. The gun smith made up several rounds of different weights and types of bullets (125 gr pfmj for varmint, 165 jsp for short-range deer, 180 gr jhp for med-range deer, 220 gr jhp for long-range deer) and asked him to bring the brass back after he fired them. That took a few years to accomplish as Dad rarely fired more than one shot at a deer...he had sniper accuracy with 400-500 yd quartering away on the run shots on white-tails, unlike myself who couldn't put one down unless it was standing. No issues with spent brass ejection and no damaged brass. Trajectory was not as flat, but still very accurate. It partially explained the much flatter trajectory than his old 30-06 with a 26" barrel that he had since his early 20's, while the extra 8" barrel length explained the rest. If numbers are for you, this was an increased barrel length of 30.769% from the longest standard barrel of 26" for a sporting barrel of that caliber at that time...typically manufactured in a 24" length, as are most other calibers for sporting purposes.

When it was all said and done, the gun smith knew exactly what to do to solve the spent brass ejection problem through the process of elimination. Had he asked my Dad first over the phone what the barrel length was and what rounds he was using, he probably would have known right away what the problem was, but the gun smith had never seen a barrel of that length before (it was made out of state). Chamber pressures with factory loads were too high due to the custom barrel length. Dad used custom hand-loads from that day forward in that rifle, made by the man who solved the problem in the first place, because he trusted him with finding the solution right out of the gate, and this was over 35 years ago.

That's just an example, I know, but if I had the reloading guide (the location is unknown to me, as the owner moved and lost contact), I'd be glad to give a title and page number...I could also scan it and load the pic, but copyright infringement could hang the forum up with legal issues.

That's all I know about it right now...I'll do some research in the morning and see if anything pops up online....2 AM and time for eyelid inspections.

Good tip on starting a load from 10% below max when deviating from tested loads using different bullets, then up-loading by 1/2 gr increments...seems I've read that somewhere before, possibly in that old manual. Again, I wish I had that book in my hands right now...massive resource of info.


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## smaj100 (Oct 17, 2012)

As you learn more and more about reloading you will pick up little tricks and tools. When I first started reloading every few years a new manual would come out. When I started comparing load data from old to new the powder charges were changing ever so slightly even with the same bullet weight, manufacturer, powder type and brand, still haven't gotten a decent explanation as to why they feel the need to change and most seem lighter.

The other thing I did once I started loading for plinking/ practice/ fun, I start at the minimum charge for what I am loading and work up in 1/2 gr increments until I find a round that is stable, accurate and functions in the weapon with no issues. This is usually for my semi pistols. This allows me to save a little on powder especially when just plinking. If I am loading for carry or defense then I do the same testing as mentioned above, going up 1/2 gr until I get to the max or see signs of pressure. This ensure I have plenty of power for my defense rounds for myself or the wife. 

Once you are bitten by the bug it will take hold with a vengeance. I started with a single stage Lee kit for 1 caliber, and quickly progressed to 2 progressives, still have the single stage (for my hunting rounds) and a load all for the shotguns. More dies than anyone person should have, I've also been stashing lead like a squirrel prepping for the ice age. This has allowed me to load more and shoot more. Seems like the more i load the more I shoot. :brickwall:

At any rate enjoy it, I have found it's my time to sit and chill listening to the radio, drinking a cool beverage and chugging out a few 1000rnds in a spell. Then I know the wife and I can go shooting whenever we want.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

As most load data suggests when dealing with max loads you should always reduce the powder charge by 10% and slowly work up looking for pressure signs. Like said above all components(powder,primer,case, bullet,and your particular gun) can change pressures. Again approach maximum loads slowly. Reloading is a lot of fun, enjoy.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

forluvofsmoke: I'd really like to see the data you're citing. All of the information I've seen shows the opposite.

I did find some interesting material others might want to read about working up new loads. (The entire article gives a lot of insight into pressure curves and barrel length and is worth a read.)

Rules of the Road
(Or, things to keep in mind when developing loads)
Rule 1 - Don't do anything stupid.
Rule 2 - For a given load a 3 percent rise in velocity requires a 6 percent rise in chamber pressure.
Rule 3 - For a 3 percent change in case capacity chamber pressure changes by 6 percent. Remember that case capacity varies drastically between brands of cases and that bullet seating depth also changes case capacity.
Rule 4 - Changing ANY component can drastically effect chamber pressure.
Rule 5 - You DO NOT need to wring the last possible foot-second of velocity out of your ammunition--it won't do anything for you. An accurate/moderate velocity load is better than an inaccurate/fast load. (See the external ballistics and load development pages)
Rule 6 - Temperature affects chamber pressure. While the effect differs with each powder, over the range of about 0º F to 125º F most modern commercial powders are fairly stable showing pressure variation of up to ± 3000 psi from loads developed at 70º F. Out side of this range the effect is still there but not as linear.) While most current ball powders handle temperatures changes well some types have exhibited a very non-linear response especially at temperature extremes outside of the above range and can result in catastrophic changes in pressures at temperatures much higher than the original temperature. Loads with any powders should be carefully worked up if their use in extreme temperatures is expected especially if at near maximum (Click here for a chart of temperature effects.)
Rule 7 - Don't do anything stupid.

http://www.frfrogspad.com/intballi.htm

Enjoy!


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Same grains,same load.


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## forluvofsmoke (Jan 27, 2012)

mosquitomountainman said:


> forluvofsmoke: I'd really like to see the data you're citing. All of the information I've seen shows the opposite.
> 
> I did find some interesting material others might want to read about working up new loads. (The entire article gives a lot of insight into pressure curves and barrel length and is worth a read.)
> 
> ...


In the page you linked, scrolling about half-way down under the heading *The Hacksaw Effect* or " Get Shorty" contains a partial explanation of what I'm trying to say about barrel lengths effecting chamber pressure with a given load (powder type, charge weight, bullet manufacturer/shape/weight, case manufacturer/capacity, primer manufacturer), but only if you reverse engineer what is explained in that paragraph. Since I have had no success trying to find any of the actual technical information I recall reading from online sources (or at least something similar), I'll use your link to try to explain it, as in a round-about way, it does pertain.

Copied/pasted from the above link (I'll insert my comments in BLUE with my deductions to make it easier to follow...hope no-one reading this is color-blind, sorry):

*The Hacksaw Effect
(Sometimes referred to as "get shorty.")*​ The often asked question of "How much velocity will I lose if I shorten my barrel "x" inches?" is tied quite closely to the expansion ratio, *although the type of powder also plays a part*. Thus there is no clear cut general answer as to just how much velocity is lost per inch of barrel shortening. *Rifles with high expansion ratios tend to lose less velocity as the barrel is shortened than do rifles with low expansion ratio*n. Thus a .300 Win Mag will lose more velocity per inch of barrel than say a .30-'06 and it is not uncommon for a smaller cartridge in a long barrel to out perform a big bottle cartridge in a short barrel as some folks found out to their dismay when they chronographed their 22" razzle-dazzle magnums next to their buddies convention calibers with 24" barrels.

Because of the fact that *"high velocity" cartridges generally have low expansion ratios* (big cases in relation to bore diameter) one can make some generalizations. The chart below will give you some idea of what can be expected if you cut your barrel shorter within the range of 20" to 26". Remember, your mileage may vary from this chart. _Note that this chart does not hold true if we are comparing different barrels of different lengths_. In that case it is quite possible, due to certain barrel design parameters, for a short barrel to give higher velocity than a longer one with the same ammunition.
*Velocity Range* * Vel change
per inch* 0-2000 5-10 2000-2500 10-20 2500-3000 20-30 3000-3500 30-40
End: Copy/Paste

If I'm understanding this correctly, if a load were developed for a given barrel length, and then used in a firearm with an increase in barrel length, the chamber pressures could conceivably be increased if a slower burning powder were not used. This is without consideration for changes in other barrel characteristics such as the number of grooves and rate of twist in the grooves...these additional factors could change chamber pressures, however minor those changes may be.

From a safety stand-point, if said load were fired with an appreciable amount of increase in barrel length, could it not increase the peak chamber pressure, possibly to the point where the firearm's designed limits have been exceeded? I think we can agree that the first warning sign of excess pressure is a deformed, cracked or otherwise damaged case, or as *could* be indicated by a malfunction in spent case ejection from the chamber (when working up a load nearing the max charge), but what if the excess chamber pressure were so great that we got no warning sign prior to a failure (in the event of a large increase in barrel length)? I don't think this situation would be much of a risk, unless a load for a given firearm was already at or near the point where cartridge damage was occurring, then using this same load with a drastic increase in barrel length as the largest change, then possibly a faster groove twist (higher pitch) and slightly tighter bore tolerance (say 0.0005-0.0010"), creating even more friction and back-pressure (chamber and bore) by slightly slowing the projectile's exit from the barrel.

As indicated by many experienced in hand-loading, any deviation in load components can have slight changes in ballistic performance, some changes having a greater effect than others, with charge and bullet weights having the most effect. It stands to reason that chamber pressures have a direct correlation to ballistic performance. If you increase chamber pressure you increase velocity, etc. If barrel length can be reason for increased velocity, then this also indicates an increase in chamber pressure. If we ignore the necessity to change powder type and/or charge weight to compensate for the increased pressure, what will we have as an end result? 

Copied/pasted from the above linked page, section titled "Bang!":

*Bang!
(What happens when the trigger is pulled.)*​
The graph below is a representative pressure curve of a typical cartridge (in this case from the M193 5.56mm cartridge using 846 ball powder). Notice how the peak pressure rises quickly and then tapers off. *The location of the peak pressure and the shape of the pressure curve is determined by the burning characteristics of the powder used and the loading density. Slower burning powders tend to have a flatter curve while faster powders a steeper curve. *

I remember reading about using slower burning powders for longer barrels and/or heavier projectile in order to reduce the peak chamber pressures that would normally be reached with loads developed for either a shorter barrel or lighter projectile.








Another very good graphical representation of what happens is shown on page 322 of "Hatcher's Notebook", (by Julian S. Hatcher, 3rd edition, June 1962, Stackpole Books, ISBN: 0811707954) but the graph is a little data dense for good reproduction here. It is similar to what is shown above but it is based upon the .30-'06 cartridge, and along with the pressure curve it shows bullet velocity and time of bullet travel.

As can be seen from the above graph,* the longer the barrel the more time the powder has to work on moving the bullet, so thus you get higher velocities with a longer barrel--all else being equal. However, while not often reached with high powered rifles there is a point at which additional barrel length does not increase velocity, but rather causes a decrease.*

Keep reading for the correlation...

*As the bullet moves down the bore and the gas pressure behind it decreases* there will come a time--with a sufficiently long barrel-- that the bore friction and the air pressure in front of the bullet will equal the pressure behind it. At that point velocity will start to decrease. With the .22 rimfire that point is reached in about 14" - 16" of barrel. Beyond that length no velocity increase occurs, and in fact the bullet can slow down, but the extra length may be useful for other things such as increased sight radius or legal requirements.

...all factors remaining normal and reasonably consistent, as in a tested load for a given rifle.

If we have to keep barrel length reasonable, the way to get more velocity is to either change the burning characteristics of the powder so it gives higher pressures over a longer time (as is done with the powders in the new "enhanced performance" ammunition now available from Hornady and Federal), or to simply burn more powder by using a bigger cartridge case.

*By using a cartridge case with greater capacity we provide for more chamber volume with the same bore volume, thus the expansion ratio* (see definitions above) *becomes less.* *As a result, the powder gases have been through less expansion by the time they reach the muzzle and muzzle pressure is higher.* *As the muzzle pressure is higher, the average pressure along the bore is higher *and the bullet has a higher velocity*.* There is a trade off for this. Because the muzzle pressure is higher, more energy is carried off into the air unused(as flash and muzzle blast) and thus the efficiency of the load (the getting of energy out of the powder charge) is less.

End: Copy/paste

Would this all not translate to higher chamber pressures, eventually leading to the point where they are unsafe when a longer barrel is used? In light of me not having the document available online or otherwise, does the above, at the very least, indicate a distinct possibility?

Being I used my Dad's custom-built rifle chambered for 30-06 Springfield as an example, lets consider this as our sample high-powered rifle in what was described above. All the signs noticed with this situation (failed spent case ejection with factory loads, and damaged fired cases) along with the corrective measure taken by the gun smith (likely a powder type change and/or slightly reduced charge weight) being the only real action needed to turn a problematic weapon into a safe, functional and extremely accurate sporting weapon.

Dad hunted white tail and mule deer with that rifle for over 25 years, with excellent results, and gave it to my BIL for his first Elk hunt, and it's still performing like any rifle should. Dad probably gave him all the custom hand-loads along with the gun...hopefully, with reloading data, just in case he ever runs low on ammo.

I didn't understand what was really happening at the time Dad first got that rifle, as I was still about 7-8 Y/O...I was too young to grasp the whole concept of what needed to be done, let alone the basics of what made a gun work in the first place. As we get older, we also gain more knowledge...I'm no different than anyone else in that respect. Oh, and I mistakenly mentioned that the issue happened over 35 years ago...it was actually closer to 43 years ago......sheesh, I'm getting older, fast!

If you don't see the correlation like I do, I know you'll be back...so, I'll wait until then. I hope I at least made some sense of it all.


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

ONe of the best worst ways to get the ammo too hot and raise pressure too high is to leave it on the dash of your truck or even in the seat in the sun on a hot day. 

The other is to shoot a gun hot then leave a round in the chamber for a while before firing again. I"ve never seen one go kablooey and think most ammo is loaded to levels designed to be safe against such abuses. But if you roll your own and load em to that last possible grain you might want to remember to keep the temps reasonable.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

forluvofsmokeh.
_"Would this all not translate to higher chamber pressures, eventually leading to the point where they are unsafe when a longer barrel is used? In light of me not having the document available online or otherwise, does the above, at the very least, indicate a distinct possibility?" 
_

The only way that would work is with rocket propellant. If you'll note the pressure curve is already headed down before the bullet leaves the muzzle. A bullet is like anything else. It takes the most energy to get it moving and less to keep is moving. Longer barrel lengths tend to increase velocity not because pressure is higher but because the momentum is better maintained once the bullet is moving. Once the pressure drops below a certain level the bullet begins slowing down. In a 22 rimfire this happens at about 16-17 inches of barrel length.

If you look at the pressure curves (graph) there is a big increase followed by a more gradual decrease in pressure.

I did some more searching and the only thing I found applicable was some testing done on a 223 barrel because the short barrels were damaging suppressors. Their conclusion was that shorter barrels increased pressure while longer barrels decreased it. I've put the link below if you want to check it out. It's a large file (lots of pictures) and takes awhile to download. I simply copied their conclusion (regarding pressure) from the last page.

"1. Pressure in the bore (uncorking pressure)* increases *exponentially
*with decreasing barrel length.*." (emphasis mine)

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2010armament/WednesdayCumberlandPhilipDater.pdf

I'd like to see your father's rifle and check some things like bore diameter to see if it has an excessively tight bore or look for other reasons it would show higher pressures. The gunsmith just gave him some reduced loads but with
the long barrel the velocity was probably very good even with reduced loads. It would be interesting to run it through a chronograph.

Are you heading up this way anytime soon?!


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

Well...I think we got the OP scared off about reloading.........


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

The powders you mentioned are designed to reach their maximum pressure then hold it for a longer time before it begins it's downward trek. They cannot exceed maximum safe pressure levels but if they can hold the pressure at high levels for a longer period then they get increased velocity without exceeding safe levels.


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## biobacon (Aug 20, 2012)

TheLazyL said:


> Well...I think we got the OP scared off about reloading.........


No Im diggin this. This is the kind of stuff I want to learn.


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## forluvofsmoke (Jan 27, 2012)

TheLazyL said:


> Well...I think we got the OP scared off about reloading.........


Man, I certainly hope not...in my younger days when I would have had more time for it, I would have loved to set-up a progressive reloading system, on a nicely organized bench. I was even considering some of those hand-held (pocket-sized) reloading dies for just for a back-up in the field, but that seemed a bit dicey to get accurate loads...mot sure they're even available anymore. But, yeah, I'm all for hand-loading. The only thing that really stopped me back then was the initial investment of dollars. Now, I could make it happen financially, if only I had the space to do it :-(

Biobacon, load-on, within reason, of course!



mosquitomountainman said:


> forluvofsmokeh.
> _"Would this all not translate to higher chamber pressures, eventually leading to the point where they are unsafe when a longer barrel is used? In light of me not having the document available online or otherwise, does the above, at the very least, indicate a distinct possibility?"
> _
> 
> ...


Ah, OK, now I see what you mentioned earlier about it being the opposite...the rapid drop in the pressure curve being sustained. I imagined the pressure curve drop would become a bit higher spike, then a more gradual drop after the initial down-ward swing, if using a longer barrel...something I read way back years ago led me to believe that was the case, which doesn't seem plausible now, though.

Oh, the dreaded pdf...I have something fouled-up on my PC settings for a couple weeks that I can't get squared away...even pdf files on secure sites for work won't open. The above link is no exception. I may have to go to a restore point to correct that issue...it's been frustrating.

As for my Dad's rifle, it does have me wondering after all these years what is really going on, especially now after this discussion. Slightly under-sized bore diameter is possible. And yes, it seemed to have pretty decent velocity for the heavier projectiles my Dad liked to use. It's clever how he loaded that gun: 1st and second rounds into the mag were the 220 gr jhp; 3rd round was a 180 jhp or 165 gr jsp; and the last of 4 was the 125 gr fmj. His reasoning was if the first shot was a coyote, badger or fox, he need only chamber the first round. If his first shot was a deer at closer range of around 250-300 yds (almost never happened) he'd just chamber and eject the first round, then chamber the second; for most shots at deer, however, he'd dump 2 rounds in his hand, pocket them and go for the heavy lead (usually 400 to more than 500 yds). He was a dead shot using that system...knew his lead distance and trajectory for running shots with any round in the chamber like no one else I've ever seen shoot. But, he hunted with 30-06 all his life...there's no substitute for experience.

Man, the jokes that ran around with his hunting buddies were pretty hilarious. Guys were shooting mainly 25-06 and 270 Winchester, either having higher muzzle velocity, but with much lighter bullets. They used to say things like: I could saddle-up that 30-06 slug and ride to that 1/4 mile away target as slow as it is (regarding the 220 gr). Dad's come-back was something along the lines of: sure but when this slower horse gets all the way home (down-range), it will be carrying a deer on it's back and bring it to my table, while your horse will just run out of breathe before it gets there and give up. Old-timers...Ha-ha!!! I shouldn't laugh, 'cuz I'm almost one of 'em!

EDIT: they (^^^) were the guys that refused to shoot at a running animal, especially at distance, and would never risk a shot at over 300-350 yds...they didn't have experience with distance, and didn't always use the same weapon.
END EDIT

Unfortunately, the rifle is in western No Dak close to where I grew up. I have no family in MT and haven't been through there for years, and even then only for work...my current job duties don't require any travel at all. We're having a family gathering this summer, but I wouldn't be able to make the time to run the rifle your way, then back to my BIL/Sister's place before heading home...too short of requested vacation from work to make it happen (I already put in my vacation request early).

Anyway, I think the change in barrel length is only a slight possibility for higher chamber pressure, if at all, after reading your last reply.

What do think about revolvers? With a rapid burn-rate of powder for a revolver load and changing to a longer barrel with the same load? Not to sky-jack this thread, but I think the OP (biobacon) may be interested after reading all the above...


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

forluvofsmoke said:


> ... What do think about revolvers? With a rapid burn-rate of powder for a revolver load and changing to a longer barrel with the same load? Not to sky-jack this thread, but I think the OP (biobacon) may be interested after reading all the above...


Always fear the man with only one rifle. He probably shoots it very well!

I don't know about revolvers. Everything has to happen in such a short time span and they use fast powders to begin with. I don't like maximum loads in much of anything. They're hard on guns, cartridge cases and the shooter. I like accuracy and durability and max loads don't accomplish either one very well.

There are some good small space and portable reloading options out now. I'm almost finished with a book on reloading for beginners with some specific tips/ideas for those working in tight spaces or on a tight budget. It'll be completed by the end of the month (I hope!). A person with a Lee Loader and digital scale can keep everything in a small box and put out match grade ammo. The costs is way under a hundred bucks. Of course it's slow but then good things and fun times should never be rushed anyway.


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## OHprepper (Feb 21, 2012)

jsriley5 said:


> The other is to shoot a gun hot then leave a round in the chamber for a while before firing again. I"ve never seen one go kablooey


this reminds me of when i saw a runaway 50 cal. the guy was shooting too long and got the barrel hot. it just kept cooking rounds, we had to break the belt.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

mosquitomountainman said:


> Always fear the man with only one rifle. He probably shoots it very well!
> 
> I don't know about revolvers. Everything has to happen in such a short time span and they use fast powders to begin with. I don't like maximum loads in much of anything. They're hard on guns, cartridge cases and the shooter. I like accuracy and durability and max loads don't accomplish either one very well.
> 
> There are some good small space and portable reloading options out now. I'm almost finished with a book on reloading for beginners with some specific tips/ideas for those working in tight spaces or on a tight budget. It'll be completed by the end of the month (I hope!). A person with a Lee Loader and digital scale can keep everything in a small box and put out match grade ammo. The costs is way under a hundred bucks. Of course it's slow but then good things and fun times should never be rushed anyway.


I am primarily a revolver shooter. The powders used for _any_ handgun cartridge are fast burning, if you're comparing them to typical rifle powders. In my experience, barrel length has nothing to do with pressure. The dimensions of the chambers, throats, forcing cone, B/C gap, and bore are far more important.

As far as the original question in this thread is concerned: I would recommend buying the bullet manufacturer's data book. Bullet shapes and internal construction vary widely now, and load data reflects that. Charge weights may vary by several grains for the same bullet weight, even when the bullets are from the same manufacturer, though different designs. The same is true of bullets of similar design from different manufacturers. In some cases it's possible to "cheat" using the method previously described by mosquitoman, but I wouldn't recommend it for someone who is just starting out.

There are a number of reputable sources of free information, such as the powder companies, but they may not list the bullet you want to use. Also, if I remember correctly, Sierra is pretty well known for answering questions if you call or email their test staff, even if you're using a bullet from a different company.


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## cqp33 (Apr 2, 2012)

OHprepper said:


> this reminds me of when i saw a runaway 50 cal. the guy was shooting too long and got the barrel hot. it just kept cooking rounds, we had to break the belt.


A few years back there was a "vessel" out at sea doing a .50 cal, M2 shoot. There was a malfunction in the mounted M2, so someone got a "great idea" and that was to unmount the M2 and replace it with another one and continue shooting for qualifications. So the malfunctioned M2 was placed on the deck and away from the side of the vessel and a little while later a sailor was met with a gift from the business end of the heavy barrel of the M2 on the deck! The bullet struck his calf, nearly detaching his lower leg!

Lesson here is that after firing enough rounds a barrel can "cook off" meaning the heat can be transferred to the brass case and ignite the powder which is referred as a "cook off".

This can happen with an AR too, even on semi auto! If you have a group of friends, family or whatever firing the rifle the chamber temp can rise very quickly! Best bet is in a "hot gun" remove the ammo if not fired in timely manner, heat does funny things to gun powder, like ignite it like it was designed too!

Here is a definition and procedure copied from a Current Navy training Instruction! (approved for public release).

"A cook-off is the firing of a round by the heat of a very hot barrel and not by the firing system. Let the weapon cool for 15 minutes before further firing occurs. If nothing is ejected from a hot gun, do not open the cover. Instead, place weapon on safe and keep it pointed downrange. Remain away from the machine gun for 15 minutes. After 15 minutes, clear the Machine gun. A hot gun typically occurs after 200 rounds have been fired within 2 minutes. However, the ambient temperature in different regions will make a difference in the time required to reach a hot gun state. For example, when there is a hot, sunny day and both the weapon and ammunition are in the sun, a cook-off can occur within 50 rounds."

While this generally refers to a "Machine gun" firing 50 rounds in a 2 minute period in an AR is not unthinkable, that is less than 2 30 round mags! while doing some "not so smart" rapid firing of an AR a hot gun condition could easily exist! Bottom line from me on this topic is this, gun powder + heat equals boom! One more reason to always remember "Always keep your firearm pointed in a safe direction!". That way if a cook-off occurs it is just a round going down range and not into a "unintended" target!

Great info on reloading here though guys, thanks for sharing! I am just now getting started on purchasing the equipment to do it myself and have a lot of Lake City brass to reload so I will be getting a dillon super swage 600. I am getting ready to purchase the Dillon XL 650, any opinions on that machine?


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## headhunter (Nov 21, 2008)

Would it be possible that the charge wasn't reduced , but the new powder had a different burn signature - taking a longer time to reach its maximum burn point. The expansion would have occurred when there was a larger space behind the bullet. 
Several years ago I was having pressure problems with a 300 Win. mag. with 4831 powder and the velocity was 2800+. A switch to the slower burning 7828 brought down the pressure and the velocities were 3200+.
On another thread I pointer out an article, "Why Ballisticians Get Gray", on p.348 in the Speer Reloading Manual Number Nine. the article points out that a longer pistol barrel does not guarantee more velocity.
Several years ago a common .44 load 21 gr. of 2400 suddenly seemed to become too hot (I didn't have a chronograph at the time.)! At one point Winchester began making one large pistol primer instead of the standard and magnum, Printed on the boxes was "large pistol for standard or magnum pistol". Usually, Winchester cases hold 2 gr more than Remington. Components change so for the most part follow the manual and buy a new one every couple of years.
One of the best pieces of advice was the gentleman who said that it was unnecessary to load to the max. Rifles and short guns will last a lot longer with fewer problems if not "hot rodded".
Reloading is a great hobbie,; after a few years you too will be amazed at all the calibers and the stacks of little green boxes.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

biobacon said:


> No Im diggin this. This is the kind of stuff I want to learn.


Good. Reloading isn't rocket science. Caliber of bullet and weight ( grains), primer, brand of powder and a reloading manual (or manufacturer's web site) to tell you have many grains of powder to use. That's the basics.

Insert spent brass pull lever - Brass resized and spent primer removed.

Pull lever - new primer seated, top of brass belled and power added.

And leads bullet - Pull Lever - bullet seated.

Pull lever case is crimped (depending on caliber) on bullet.


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## biobacon (Aug 20, 2012)

The guy at the store said the same thing to me about it not being rocket science. So far it has been like a scavenger hunt, took 45 mins at Buckeye Outdoors to find powder and bullets I had data on so I could reload it.


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

If you run into a pinch here or there let me know and I have some books and could even shoot you a recipe or two and even check any recipe you have agains t my books for a double check. I have a hornady book that has been my main and favorite load book and I have specifec for caliber books for a few calibers. I do highly reccomend those btw I got mine at midway. They are compilations of many bullet and powder manufacturers data. can't remember price it was like 8 or 9 dollars per caliber IIRC correctly.


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## biobacon (Aug 20, 2012)

thanks Jsriley5. I have 80 factory rounds to fire for my 30-06. Im going to fire 20-30 this spring and then the fun starts.


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## cqp33 (Apr 2, 2012)

I have specific caliber books for .45, 30-06, 5.56(AR) and .38 special. Got them from brownells. If anyone needs a recipe let me know I will share.


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## 101airborne (Jan 29, 2010)

I just got a lee 50th anniversary reloading kit myself. Came with everything you need to start reloading except the dies. I bought a set of 9mm dies and ordered a set of .40 and a set of 5.56. Plan to order 30.06 next week. Anyway my question is powder/primer storage. For obvious safty reason as well as having the room to do so, I want to set up the press and such in my garage. I have a good place for it. But I was wondering if it is okay to store powder and such in a un temperature controled area like my garage as long as I tightly seal the containers of powder and put the primers in an air tight container like a jar or something?


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

101airborne said:


> I just got a lee 50th anniversary reloading kit myself. Came with everything you need to start reloading except the dies. I bought a set of 9mm dies and ordered a set of .40 and a set of 5.56. Plan to order 30.06 next week. Anyway my question is powder/primer storage. For obvious safty reason as well as having the room to do so, I want to set up the press and such in my garage. I have a good place for it. But I was wondering if it is okay to store powder and such in a un temperature controled area like my garage as long as I tightly seal the containers of powder and put the primers in an air tight container like a jar or something?


My uncle has had powder and primers stored in a cabinet in his non climate controlled shop for thirty years. Everything still goes off just fine. If you're really worried about the primers, store them in vacuum sealed bags or similar. Anything that might contain high pressures is a bad idea since it will be a bomb if exposed to excessive heat...think house fire or similar.

Store the primers and the powder in their original packaging. Smokeless powders are classified as propellant, while black powder and primers are classified as explosives. If you pour a small quantity of smokeless powder out in a pile and toss a match on it, it will burn slowly. It doesn't burn well unless it's contained and pressure is allowed to build. Black powder, if you do the same, will be gone in a flash. Primers are the same if struck or exposed to flame/extreme heat. Powder containers are made to vent before pressure builds to levels significant enough to cause an "explosion".

As far as loading in a shop/garage versus inside the climate controlled comfort inside your home...there's not really any safety issue so it's a moot point. The exception would be if you have carpet. It's impossible to get the powder back out of the carpet since a vacuum is a possible ignition source.


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## smaj100 (Oct 17, 2012)

Zombie,

Good for you. It's funny that's the exact kit I started with and almost the same caliber list. If you like to shoot you will find quickly that the single stage just can't keep up with your demand. I know have 2 Lee progressives on the bench with a load all for the shotty and the single stage for my 308 hunting uber accurate stuff.

I know some will frown on my storage as it is a contained vessel, but I figure if my shed ever catches fire it's not gonna be pretty either way. I store my powders, primers and loaded ammo in the big 30mm metal army ammo cans. I have moisture absorbent packs in each just for some extra insurance and my shed is not climate controlled obviously. I am a retired apache driver of 20yrs so I don't know what overkill means.  hence the desiccant packets aren't really needed, but it makes me happy.

If you have any questions about the lee stuff or loading in general shoot me a note, I'll be more than happy to help.


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## 101airborne (Jan 29, 2010)

zombieresponder said:


> My uncle has had powder and primers stored in a cabinet in his non climate controlled shop for thirty years. Everything still goes off just fine. If you're really worried about the primers, store them in vacuum sealed bags or similar. Anything that might contain high pressures is a bad idea since it will be a bomb if exposed to excessive heat...think house fire or similar.
> 
> Store the primers and the powder in their original packaging. Smokeless powders are classified as propellant, while black powder and primers are classified as explosives. If you pour a small quantity of smokeless powder out in a pile and toss a match on it, it will burn slowly. It doesn't burn well unless it's contained and pressure is allowed to build. Black powder, if you do the same, will be gone in a flash. Primers are the same if struck or exposed to flame/extreme heat. Powder containers are made to vent before pressure builds to levels significant enough to cause an "explosion".
> 
> As far as loading in a shop/garage versus inside the climate controlled comfort inside your home...there's not really any safety issue so it's a moot point. The exception would be if you have carpet. It's impossible to get the powder back out of the carpet since a vacuum is a possible ignition source.


 Thanks Zombie, We have a very small (about 900 sf) home so extra space is very limited. Almost every extra foot is used for prep storage. So the BIG 2 1/2 car garage is my easiest way to go.


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

I use Suplus ammo cans to keep all my stuff in . I know these may try to contian things but I want/need the moisture proofing as my stuff gets kept in the garage too. Heat and cold isn't my worry but when the air warms up around col items condensation little or lots forms. So heating and cooling is bad if you don't protect from excess moisture buildup. I wouldn't neccessarioy want to keep powder and primers where the temp exceeds 200 degrees like a small tin building or somthing. But I have routinely stored powder and primers where temps exceeding 140 were not uncommmon with no ill effects except to me when going out there to try to work with stuff. consequently I did alot more loading in the winter than I did in the summer.


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## biobacon (Aug 20, 2012)

My wife ordered me a decaping die yesterday. I still need to get a bullet hammer and then I think Im set. Hey if you spend $300 or more for RCBS tools they will send you 500 bullets or $50. The bullets require $14.99 in shipping but for $340.00 in bullets that's a good deal. I suppose they figure they will get their money back in powder and primers LOL.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

smaj100 said:


> Zombie,
> 
> Good for you. It's funny that's the exact kit I started with and almost the same caliber list. If you like to shoot you will find quickly that the single stage just can't keep up with your demand. I know have 2 Lee progressives on the bench with a load all for the shotty and the single stage for my 308 hunting uber accurate stuff.
> 
> ...


I didn't buy the reloading kit, the poster I quoted did.

I've seen what happens when ammo is thrown into a fire. It's basically a non event unless you happen to be unlucky enough to catch some shrapnel from the burst cartridge case. The same can't be said of anything contained in a pressure vessel, particularly if a large quantity of something volatile is contained within it. I don't know if the blast would be enough to create a concussion, but it may be enough to rupture eardrums or send rather large chunks of shrapnel off in directions that you really don't want it to go.


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