# The survival arsenal for the non gun familliar.



## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

A BillS inspired manual:


Let's look at options, not everyone can afford a top of the line Rock river or Ruger AR-15, NOR can they spend hours honing skills to deadly proficiency. Here is a list of survival weapons for the gun noob, you will find these weapons in great number in ghettos around the world, when you read, you'll understand why:

The ubiquitous AK-47:
Simple, tough, but mediocre accuracy and designed for troops with a whole three hours of training.it's pretty much soldier proof, idiot proof, and with a coat of ceramic paint, weather proof.the best of the best will only shoot 3 MOA, but you CAN get torso hits out to 300 yards with limited practice.Ammo, mags, "tactical stocks" and addons abound.you can figure one out right out of the box in 5 minutes,but read the damned manual anyway.

The Mossberg pump.
you have to WANT to break one of these and its almost as tough as a Remington 870, and if you don't put 100 rounds a week down the pipe for a lifetime, you'll never notice.its lighter too!

Ruger 10/22.
quality weapon you can do stupid stuff to like turn it into an assault rifle.keep it clean and it will amaze you how accurate it can be,factory 25 round mags, bazillions of folding stocks, flash hiders and other semi useless do-dads abound!I like it because scoped and with a pocket full of mags I'm out the door with a thousand rounds in my pack and even the weakest can fire one.good "last bet" gun.

Stupid assault pistols.
Look, if you're not a good shot with a regular handgun, give an m-9/11 or TEC-9 a try.32 rounds of ammo will damn sure keep a head down!the TEC-9 was actually accurate with military ammo.there's a sten gun copy on the market now I really want myself and I can actually shoot!all of the above are simple as a brick and provide you with extra ammo when you miss. again, read the damn manual!they're as tough as an AK for the most part as well due to military heritage, sadly most are as accurate as a snub nose 38, but HEY 32 rounds...


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## db2469 (Jun 11, 2012)

Magus...I'm one of those new to guns...just bought a Marlin .22, have a .380 ruger...I want a conceable revolver but unsure of the caliber to get...want more than a .22 but don't want a big recoil or noise...suggestions? How's a .357 Magnum? Also would like a rifle, maybe a .243 or a .270...do they come semi-auto?
DB


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## Moby76065 (Jul 31, 2012)

db I hope ya don't mind another opinion.
A .357 round is big bad a$$ round and I like it.
But of course it's going to be loud. Noise should not be a real big concern 
if you're carrying this weapon. The idea is something that will save you or a loved one.
The only REAL way to ensure you like a particular gun is to find a range near you that rents guns and try them.
LOT's of people, myself included like Glocks for CCW. Their simple and very reliable.
That being said their not the only ones that are either.
I'm not a big 9mm fan. Many are. I believe .38+p (minimum) .357, .40, or .45 are the best CCW guns because when split seconds count you don't want to shoot someone and they can still shoot back. You want them DOWN! The Marines went back to the 1911 .45 from the 9mm for just this reason.
A .40 cal Glock 27 has been a LE CCW for years and has the muscle to get the job done everytime.
The key to carrying a weapon is being VERY good at hitting your target so innocents don't get shot and you survive the gun fight. So it is really important you like shooting it so you will train with it often.
Ammo costs are a factor. Every squeeze of the trigger of my .45 costs me roughly .50 cents. It doesn't sound like much until you start popping 100 rounds a week. The misses gets a litle hot sometimes.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

db2469 it is plain that you are not much into guns, and thats fine. If you are looking at a compact carry revolver you could buy a 357 and still shoot 38 specials in it. Or just buy a 38 special one. The 357 models will be heavier and bulkier than the 38 special models. A .357 mag snubby revolver is not very much fun to shoot for most people. They have alot of recoil. But with 38 specials in them they are fun to shoot and you can work up to full power 357 loads. Bigger is not always better. I carry 115 grain 38 special loads in my snubby all the time. They are very accurate and would hurt like heck if you got shot with one. I was a gunsmith for many years and have shot hundreds of different handguns including rifle caliber models. I never really liked all the heavy recoil in many handguns. Don't let someone push you into a gun you are not and may never be comfortable with.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

Thanks for the info. It's good to see my gun on the list.


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## ContinualHarvest (Feb 19, 2012)

db my best recommendation for you would be to visit a range that rents guns to use. Try our a few different ones and make your purchase choice based on what feels right for you.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

BillS said:


> Thanks for the info. It's good to see my gun on the list.


Never said you were wrong about EVERYTHING. at least grab an SKS BillS so we can flame each other after things settle down.LOL



db2469 said:


> Magus...I'm one of those new to guns...just bought a Marlin .22, have a .380 ruger...I want a conceable revolver but unsure of the caliber to get...want more than a .22 but don't want a big recoil or noise...suggestions? How's a .357 Magnum? Also would like a rifle, maybe a .243 or a .270...do they come semi-auto?
> DB


Well now.I myself have carried a 357 smith snub, little bugger will burst your ears between buildings or in a car.currently my carry is a Russian Makarov stoked with glaser 380s, hits like a stock 38, but makes a nasty mess when the round explodes.IF you must go 357,I suggest a barrel length that fully utilizes its power and inherent accuracy, 4" minimum but I must admit that 3" GP 100 is mighty sweet!to back it up I'd get a Marlin or Rossi lever action, also in 357.as a good solid hunting weapon, only a real pro would use one as a fighting weapon, but the pros are out there!

Now a defensive weapon..if I remember right, DSA made a FAL in 243, this is the utter Cadillac of full bore battle rifles still available to us today! it'll set you back just under two grand. BUT it takes the place of two or even 3 weapons in an arsenal [hunting, fighting, sniping]the FAL is my favorite weapon of all time second only to the M-14.


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## db2469 (Jun 11, 2012)

What do you all think of the Ruger mini-14 .233?
DB


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## oldasrocks (Jun 30, 2012)

Try out the .45 Cobra. Its small, well built and guarenteed for life. AMERICAN MADE! I carry a full sized 1911 in my shoulder holster in the winter when wearing a jacket but in the summer the Cobra snugs down nice in my back pocket.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Mini 14's or Mini 30's are great. And less expensive than a good AR-15. Ruger stuff is always made tough. The Mini's are kinda ugly though


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## alwaysready (May 16, 2012)

hiwall said:


> Mini 14's or Mini 30's are great. And less expensive than a good AR-15. Ruger stuff is always made tough. The Mini's are kinda ugly though


Aahhh yes but the beauty is in the function


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## Redtail (Oct 17, 2008)

Being a big guy with lots of space, I have always preferred full rifle cartridges over intermediates for general use. 
I would like to plant this bug while I can. 
Look into the PSL-54C, also known as the WASR Romak-III, also known as the FPK rifle, also incorrectly sold as an SVD Dragunov. 
It is a semiautomatic 10-round long-strole AK-derived sniper rifle. Surprisingly accurate, stupidly simple to maintain, and constructed in a manner such that improper maintenance will not inhibit proper function for a good length of time. 

It shares a fantastic number of parts with an AK47 or RPK, is stupid accurate, and wonderfully lightweight, where the long-stroke blowback action greatly decreases felt recoil from the powerful 7.62x54R cartridge, which is also very common and easy to find thanks to its popularity from the Mosin-Nagant. 

The PSL will fire high-pressure 183gr heavy ball rounds with the addition of an M14 recoil spring.


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## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

alwaysready said:


> Aahhh yes but the beauty is in the function


The mini 14 is an excellent weapon for the average shooter. I bought mine the first year they came out (about 30 years ago ) and I have never had a problem with it. Yes, it's not as cool as an AR 15 but it's half the money. Never had a misfire or a miss feed.:2thumb:

The early mini 14's had rumors about poor accuracy but in tests it took the barrel to heat up (after about a fast 100 rounds to change the groupings a few inches. However the new mini 14's do not have this issue any more, Ruger makes the barrel a little thicker now and this as fixed the accuracy issue.


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## oldasrocks (Jun 30, 2012)

Whatever you buy buy in Stainless Steel so if you need to bury it or lose in in a boating accident it willstill be good later.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

db2469 said:


> What do you all think of the Ruger mini-14 .233?
> DB


Tested one against an AR as a bug out gun here in an article somewhere.
Sweet trigger, decent balance, mediocre accuracy, but that was the older series with that stupid skinny barrel, if the heavier nub has fixed it spreading groups as you heat up, I'd grab a stainless steel one.your grand kids will cherish it.

The AR beat it because of available parts and accuracy,BUT a person who's a mediocre shot won't really notice.

I still have it in my TEOTWAWKI camp.


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## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

The mini 14 is a good rifle choice also. I prefer the AR due to more parts and accesories choices personally. They both use the same ammo so ballistics will be the same. As far as pistols go though DB, I would advise you to stick to a pistol in the big 3, 9mm, .40 and .45 caliber. My reason is that the ammo is cheaper. (Especially the 9mm) since more people own those calibers and you can get high capacity mags for pretty much all of the semi autos. You are gonna want more than 6 rounds if it ever gets to the point where you actually need to use it.


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

db2469 said:


> What do you all think of the Ruger mini-14 .233?
> DB


If you want something decent and can get a good one used @ great price they are OK. But it's not easy to find a cheap Mini in good condition these days.

If you are looking for a primary fighting rifle they aren't worth the new price. The twist rate is a poor choice for good ammo and performance. The reliability isn't the greatest. Ask any basic rifle instructor with a few hundred classes under his belt. John Farnam is one in particular.

My recommendation would be to save a few hundred more and go with an AR. It is shootable by everyone, from young adolescent, small stature, etc. Common, affordable, reliable magazines and wide variety of ammo. Great ergonomics. Lightweight is great for prolonged carry or weaker shooters.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Forgot all about barrel twist!! no wonder it shot so sloppy.what is these days 1-9?


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

Magus said:


> Forgot all about barrel twist!! no wonder it shot so sloppy.what is these days 1-9?


Well dangit. I was wrong on the twist rate. It looks like rifles after 1994 are 1/9. That is probably the all around best twist rate for about 55gr-64gr.

Here are the twist rates I found:
1975 to ~1989: 1/10
1989 to 1994: 1/7
Current twist: 1/9

Some references differ on exact dates, but they're within a few years of each other.

I stand corrected on the twist rate.


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## truecarnage (Apr 25, 2010)

Last time I was at the gun show entry level AR was just about the same price as mini 14 and the magazines are about half as much. I've had more Rugers than any other make and one thing Ruger does is makes one tough gun. I still have two, SP101 and SR556C. Also keep in mind what the mini is modeled after, one of the best rifles ever made in my opinion.


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## TheRiver (Mar 31, 2012)

O.k. I'm dumb..... What is the mini modeled after?


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

M14, only in 5.56.


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## alwaysready (May 16, 2012)

TheRiver said:


> O.k. I'm dumb..... What is the mini modeled after?


The M14 7.62mm a great rifle by the time I joined they were issuing the
M16A1. With its shorter barrel and composite stock it was better suited for jungle warfare. My Sergeants believed that the 14 was still superior and claimed to carry one until the end of their combat service.


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## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

The big reason they dumped the M14 is it was heavy as hell, the ammo was heavy but the biggest reason is it was way way more expensive to fund an M14 army than an M16 army. It always comes down to cash baby!! That's also why I prefer an Ar15 to a AR10, too heavy and too expensive!


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

alwaysready said:


> The M14 7.62mm a great rifle by the time I joined they were issuing the
> M16A1. With its shorter barrel and composite stock it was better suited for jungle warfare. My Sergeants believed that the 14 was still superior and claimed to carry one until the end of their combat service.


I <3 my M-1A.parked it for a FAL, but it ain't going nowhere.besides,I can beat a door down with an M-14[or squash a head] good luck doing that with ANY M-16.


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## Redtail (Oct 17, 2008)

The FAL and its wide range of clones seem to have received high acclaim wherever they've been issued to militaries. 
I'm very fond of the design of the M14 and M1A, but I'm more likely to be able to afford an L1A1 import version within my lifetime, and the design very closely mimics my beloved PSL-54C. VERY simple and reliable.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

PSL? you lucky devil.

Century still has FALs for about 800$ scope it and fall in love!


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## TheRiver (Mar 31, 2012)

alwaysready said:


> The M14 7.62mm a great rifle by the time I joined they were issuing the
> M16A1. With its shorter barrel and composite stock it was better suited for jungle warfare. My Sergeants believed that the 14 was still superior and claimed to carry one until the end of their combat service.


Thanks for the info alwaysready. Now u r talk'n. I have an M-1carbine sport model(universal) from my grandad. He got after retiring from Air Force. Had military issue in service. Him, my dad, me, and my son have taken a deer or two with it. My grandson is next lol.


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## alwaysready (May 16, 2012)

TheRiver said:


> Thanks for the info alwaysready. Now u r talk'n. I have an M-1carbine sport model(universal) from my grandad. He got after retiring from Air Force. Had military issue in service. Him, my dad, me, and my son have taken a deer or two with it. My grandson is next lol.


The M1 is my uncle's favorite he carried one in the Chosin reservoir. Sounds like a really nice family tradition you have going with your grandpa's rifle. Keep passing it on.


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## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

Magus said:


> I <3 my M-1A.parked it for a FAL, but it ain't going nowhere.besides,I can beat a door down with an M-14[or squash a head] good luck doing that with ANY M-16.


That's why I have a tactical rock I keep attached to my AR! You can't use just any old rock, you gotta get a tactical rock!! I bought mine for 29.99 and it came already painted tactical black.


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## cajunmeadows (Oct 21, 2011)

db2469 said:


> Magus...I'm one of those new to guns...just bought a Marlin .22, have a .380 ruger...I want a conceable revolver but unsure of the caliber to get...want more than a .22 but don't want a big recoil or noise...suggestions? How's a .357 Magnum? Also would like a rifle, maybe a .243 or a .270...do they come semi-auto?
> DB


I just bought a Taurus 66 in .357. Good looking pistol and the new ones are 7 shot. Plus will also shoot .38


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## kappydell (Nov 27, 2011)

for a first time revolver I'd look into a .38 or .38 special. the round is big enough to work on an attacker with hollow points, the recoil is not too bad, and there is oodles of info on reloading .38s if you choose reloading to supplement your ammo. plus there are plenty of used ones around, including quite a few retired police revolvers, since the autos became stylish for the police to carry. the only down side is they only hold 5 rounds, but with some speed-loaders and a little practice, that is not that big of a down side....plus revolvers are more tolerant of ignorance in maintenance. a good beginners weapon.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

cajunmeadows said:


> I just bought a Taurus 66 in .357. Good looking pistol and the new ones are 7 shot. Plus will also shoot .38


Black Friday (day after thanksgiving) last year, Academy Sports were selling Rossi (Brazilian) model R461 3" barrel .357 revolvers for $189! The deals are still out there if you look around.


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## Redtail (Oct 17, 2008)

mojo4 said:


> That's why I have a tactical rock I keep attached to my AR! You can't use just any old rock, you gotta get a tactical rock!! I bought mine for 29.99 and it came already painted tactical black.


Psh... All the cool kids went with the Magpul tactical plstic rock in coyote brown or FDE. It only costs $79.95, and it's lighter and faster, never mind less durable and more vulnerable to heat.


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## TheRiver (Mar 31, 2012)

Redtail said:


> Psh... All the cool kids went with the Magpul tactical plstic rock in coyote brown or FDE. It only costs $79.95, and it's lighter and faster, never mind less durable and more vulnerable to heat.


Does that replace the tactical twig in powder black? I hear it dosnt hold up well!


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## Chevy (Aug 20, 2012)

Got me one of those assault rifles a few years ago. Fun to play with on Rock-n-Roll.










Ken

090512 1944


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## Resto (Sep 7, 2012)

Marcus said:


> M14, only in 5.56.


And the M 14 is modeled after the M 1 Garrand which is a nice WWII rifle.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

LincTex said:


> Black Friday (day after thanksgiving) last year, Academy Sports were selling Rossi (Brazilian) model R461 3" barrel .357 revolvers for $189! The deals are still out there if you look around.


IIRC, Rossi is now owned by Taurus. I don't know much of anything about the recent production Rossi guns(other than a crappy .243 single shot my uncle bought that wouldn't fire reliably, even after returning it to the factory), but the vast majority of the older ones I've seen were not of good quality. They just didn't hold up to regular use. Taurus has always been hit or miss. Something I can tell you as a machinist is that you can't make a product that costs 1/3 to 1/2 the price of competing products without cutting corners somewhere....even with significantly cheaper labor prices.

It takes some looking, but even now there are PD trade in revolvers available once in a while. I've bought several of them.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

Resto said:


> And the M 14 is modeled after the M 1 Garrand which is a nice WWII rifle.


I've got a mini 30 and a M14. Ruger screwed the pooch with their changes to the design. The older mini series rifles are generally poor shooters, but from what I've heard the rifles made in the last couple of years are much better.

The mini 30 I have, I got for free. If it weren't for that, I wouldn't own one. There is literally nothing to recommend the Ruger mini rifles over other options. Ruger _will not_ sell you some parts unless you send the rifle to them to have them replaced. An example is the firing pin...you can't buy one from Ruger, and a number of people have had problems with them breaking. Reliable magazines are generally limited to Ruger brand, and they're 2x+ as expensive as something like an AR or AK. The rifles themselves are just as expensive, if not more so, than an AR and a lot more expensive than an AK.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

OK I am going to get beat up for my opinion. But I completely disagree with all the recommendations of what anyone unfamiliar with guns should get for a survival arsenal. I will say here, what I say when anyone who is unfamiliar with guns asks me what gun they should get. I ALWAYS tell them *DO NOT BUY A GUN*. I suggest instead that they come shooting with me. I teach them firearms safety, often with a pellet gun. I emphasis that a gun is a deadly weapon and if they can not handle a pellet gun safely they should not touch a firearm. Than I teach them basics. Once they have an understanding, I have them plink a little with a couple of small caliber weapons. Next time out I try to expose them to a variety of different calibers hand guns, rifles, maybe a shotgun. I break each session up into; learning, going over the basics and than plinking at ranges that they can effectively shoot at. We always have coffee afterwards. I make a point of praising their progress and talk about which guns they liked shooting the most and why. We spend a lot of time talking about why they like a certain gun and caliber over another. In that way they make an informed decisions on what gun suits them the best. Decide for themselves what gun they should get. On rare occasions I may have to guide them away from a bad choice but in the vast majority of cases people make good choices. All the while I emphasis how much more important professional training is over what gun they buy. In many cases they take a firearms course or two before they even buy a gun. In those cases I will often loan them what they need to take the course.
So that is my opinion *those unfamiliar with guns SHOULD NOT NOT BUY A GUN*. Instead they should get some professional training and practice, get familiar with guns. Than they will know what gun suits them the best.


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## Startingout-Blair (Aug 28, 2012)

Wow! That sounds like me when it comes to the training Longrider!


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## cnsper (Sep 20, 2012)

Years ago I had a Ruger Blackhawk .45 and a friend was shocked and told me that I could not use a speed loader on it... I just looked at him and said "You have 6 shots with this thing, if you can not hit it in 6 shots throw it down and run". He did not get the fact that it was just a cool gun. Carried that thing all over Alaska. Damn it was heavy.. LOL

Now if it is night time and someone has snuck into your encapment/bol/home, there is one weapon that you may never even have to fire. There is nothing in this world that I have found that sounds like a 12 ga pump action. Talk about SFTD (shit filling the drawers) on the part of the intruder... LOL

Now if you want to have a lot of free ammo then a 9mm would be a good one to get as a lot of others will have that round too.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

It is possible to use a speedloader with a single action, but it's not like a speedloader for a DA revolver. For a SA, you use a simple tube with a permanent cap on one end and a quick release cap on the other.

I've got a 7.5" barreled Blackhawk in .45 Colt, with a 2x Leupold on top. I've fired one box of anemic factory loads through, and everything else has been handloads. I generally launch a 250 grain cast SWC at around 1200 fps, but I'll be shooting a lot more of these since I got a mold for them.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

Startingout-Blair said:


> Wow! That sounds like me when it comes to the training Longrider!


Glad at least one person seems to agree. Notice not much a response to that post I suspect because it is not the kind of thing folks want to hear


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## Startingout-Blair (Aug 28, 2012)

LongRider said:


> Glad at least one person seems to agree. Notice not much a response to that post I suspect because it is not the kind of thing folks want to hear


I think safety and training have to be the first concern! Every firearm is different. I have picked up guns and handed it back to the owner for him/her to show me how it is operated, if I have never used that model before. I will also jump on someone who is being unsafe with a firearm. Must be the Army Sergeant in me! Lmao!


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

LongRider said:


> OK I am going to get beat up for my opinion. But I completely disagree with all the recommendations of what anyone unfamiliar with guns should get for a survival arsenal. I will say here, what I say when anyone who is unfamiliar with guns asks me what gun they should get. I ALWAYS tell them *DO NOT BUY A GUN*. I suggest instead that they come shooting with me. I teach them firearms safety, often with a pellet gun. I emphasis that a gun is a deadly weapon and if they can not handle a pellet gun safely they should not touch a firearm. Than I teach them basics. Once they have an understanding, I have them plink a little with a couple of small caliber weapons. Next time out I try to expose them to a variety of different calibers hand guns, rifles, maybe a shotgun. I break each session up into; learning, going over the basics and than plinking at ranges that they can effectively shoot at. We always have coffee afterwards. I make a point of praising their progress and talk about which guns they liked shooting the most and why. We spend a lot of time talking about why they like a certain gun and caliber over another. In that way they make an informed decisions on what gun suits them the best. Decide for themselves what gun they should get. On rare occasions I may have to guide them away from a bad choice but in the vast majority of cases people make good choices. All the while I emphasis how much more important professional training is over what gun they buy. In many cases they take a firearms course or two before they even buy a gun. In those cases I will often loan them what they need to take the course.
> So that is my opinion *those unfamiliar with guns SHOULD NOT NOT BUY A GUN*. Instead they should get some professional training and practice, get familiar with guns. Than they will know what gun suits them the best.


I don't see why you should catch a bunch of flak about your opinion on getting some proper training first before you buy a firearm.

As a former firearms instructor I totally agree with you. There are a whole bunch of folks that will purchase a firearm and not have a clue about how to safely handle and fire that weapon.
Excellent post LongRider and it should be taken to heart, but there are some folks that think that they are above learing the correct and safe way and you can't convince them otherwise.


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## -JohnD- (Sep 16, 2012)

LongRider said:


> OK I am going to get beat up for my opinion. But I completely disagree with all the recommendations of what anyone unfamiliar with guns should get for a survival arsenal. I will say here, what I say when anyone who is unfamiliar with guns asks me what gun they should get. I ALWAYS tell them *DO NOT BUY A GUN*. I suggest instead that they come shooting with me. I teach them firearms safety, often with a pellet gun. I emphasis that a gun is a deadly weapon and if they can not handle a pellet gun safely they should not touch a firearm. Than I teach them basics. Once they have an understanding, I have them plink a little with a couple of small caliber weapons. Next time out I try to expose them to a variety of different calibers hand guns, rifles, maybe a shotgun. I break each session up into; learning, going over the basics and than plinking at ranges that they can effectively shoot at. We always have coffee afterwards. I make a point of praising their progress and talk about which guns they liked shooting the most and why. We spend a lot of time talking about why they like a certain gun and caliber over another. In that way they make an informed decisions on what gun suits them the best. Decide for themselves what gun they should get. On rare occasions I may have to guide them away from a bad choice but in the vast majority of cases people make good choices. All the while I emphasis how much more important professional training is over what gun they buy. In many cases they take a firearms course or two before they even buy a gun. In those cases I will often loan them what they need to take the course.
> So that is my opinion *those unfamiliar with guns SHOULD NOT NOT BUY A GUN*. Instead they should get some professional training and practice, get familiar with guns. Than they will know what gun suits them the best.


Very true!:2thumb:


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

LongRider said:


> Glad at least one person seems to agree. Notice not much a response to that post I suspect because it is not the kind of thing folks want to hear


I don't think anyone gave you any flak since it's just common sense. Having said that, I'd be surprised if folks here weren't a bit more knowledgeable (or at least more familiar) than the common man on the street. I shot my first gun (.22 rifle) at a young age and my first machine gun (M-60) at age 12.


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## Jimmy24 (Apr 20, 2011)

LongRider said:


> Glad at least one person seems to agree. Notice not much a response to that post I suspect because it is not the kind of thing folks want to hear


Your first post was insightful and dead on. I thought it to be very good comment. But it doesn't mean I have to comment on it or that I don't want to hear it.

This second post sounds more like a whine than insightful. Your credibility may suffer from it. Just because you don't get tons of responses from a post, does not mean no one cares about the subject matter. Lots of posts get read thousands of times, but no direct reply. Doesn't mean it it wasn't a good post.

My apologies to the OP for getting OT.

Jimmy


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

Magus,

since u like the FAL so much.
What about the G3 and its clones(PTR91 etc)?
Cmes with Diopter sights too?


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## Startingout-Blair (Aug 28, 2012)

Jimmy24 said:


> Your first post was insightful and dead on. I thought it to be very good comment. But it doesn't mean I have to comment on it or that I don't want to hear it.
> 
> This second post sounds more like a whine than insightful. Your credibility may suffer from it. Just because you dont get tons of responses from a post, does not mean no one cares about the subject matter. Lots of posts get read thousands of times, but no direct reply. Doesn't mean it it wasn't a good post.
> 
> ...


I believe Longrider made the first statement because he knows there are people on this site that will argue for arguments sake, no matter right or wrong. Furthermore, I believe his second statement was a sarcastic jest: he was just being funny. I don't think his credibility will suffer. I've seen quite a few of his posts and Longrider seems insightful and willing to admit he is wrong, if proven so. Don't take everything so serious all the time. Anyways, if I am wrong in my observation, I'm sure he will correct me


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## Redtail (Oct 17, 2008)

BlueZ:
The G3 series are excellent guns, but they have a couple of shortcomings. 

The roller-delay mechanism is their achilles heel. It's the mechanism they use to generate so much power and accuracy and to perform semiautomatic or full-automatic firing without a dirty gas tube or piston. 
The drawback is that rollers wear out quickly. They're easier to find for the HK91/PTR91, but those are MUCH more expensive rifles. 
The CETME is an excellent rifle, but since the G3 was produced in much higher volumes, the CETME, which is not 100% compatible, is harder to find parts for. 

I'm also a huge fan of the FAL and similar systems. 
THe PSL-54C is *very* similar to the FAL, the diffference is that the PSL really only has 10-round magazines available and is chambered in 7.62x54R, so you have access to cheap ammo, but the tradeoff is limited capacity.


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## Jimmy24 (Apr 20, 2011)

Startingout-Blair said:


> I believe Longrider made the first statement because he knows there are people on this site that will argue for arguments sake, no matter right or wrong. Furthermore, I believe his second statement was a sarcastic jest: he was just being funny. I don't think his credibility will suffer. I've seen quite a few of his posts and Longrider seems insightful and willing to admit he is wrong, if proven so. Don't take everything so serious all the time. Anyways, if I am wrong in my observation, I'm sure he will correct me


You have every right to your opinion, as I do.

He took it serious in the 1st post, so why would he be only sarcastic in his second post.

Telling me to lighten up, obvisously shows you have no clue.

Besides, I feel certain Longrider can defend himself.

Peace.

Jimmy


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

BlueZ said:


> Magus,
> 
> since u like the FAL so much.
> What about the G3 and its clones(PTR91 etc)?
> Cmes with Diopter sights too?


The PTR92 solved the only real gripe I had out of a HK-91,flimsy whippy barrel that starts to spread like a shotgun after 50 rounds,the 91 has a much heavier barrel and is deadly accurate,can't see paying 1200$ for one when I can get a FAL for the same price...BUT, if one got waved under my nose at the right price,I'd grab it!


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## ComputerGuy (Dec 10, 2010)

Magus said:


> The PTR92 solved the only real gripe I had out of a HK-91,flimsy whippy barrel that starts to spread like a shotgun after 50 rounds,the 91 has a much heavier barrel and is deadly accurate,can't see paying 1200$ for one when I can get a FAL for the same price...BUT, if one got waved under my nose at the right price,I'd grab it!


I was able to pick up my PTR-91 for just under 1000.00. Spent quite a bit more on scope, bipod and some other luxuries. This is my dream gun. I had always wanted a HK-91 and this is the closest I will ever get. Here she is:


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## Startingout-Blair (Aug 28, 2012)

Jimmy24 said:


> You have every right to your opinion, as I do.
> 
> He took it serious in the 1st post, so why would he be only sarcastic in his second post.
> 
> ...


Yep. You're right. I have no clue and he can defend his self. Sorry I'd I struck a cord. I was not in any way trying to be an a$$hole. I'll just sit back and keep my mouth shut like a good little piece of crap.


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## Jimmy24 (Apr 20, 2011)

Startingout-Blair said:


> Yep. You're right. I have no clue and he can defend his self. Sorry I'd I struck a cord. I was not in any way trying to be an a$$hole. I'll just sit back and keep my mouth shut like a good little piece of crap.


Never said you were an a-hole. Never thought you to be one. I just plainly stated I have the same rights here as you do. The mods will tell me to lighten up if need be.

You called it as you saw it, as I did. Don't give the same impression as the post I was replying to. You made your call. I simply replied back.

Peace

Jimmy


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

ComputerGuy said:


> I was able to pick up my PTR-91 for just under 1000.00. Spent quite a bit more on scope, bipod and some other luxuries. This is my dream gun. I had always wanted a HK-91 and this is the closest I will ever get. Here she is:


It's BETTER than the HK.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

Jimmy24 said:


> This second post sounds more like a whine than insightful.


Three off topic posts to needlessly criticize me. Sounds like the voice of experience. So, I will defer to the whine expert


Jimmy24 said:


> Your credibility may suffer from it.


Personally I could give a rats ass what your opinion of me. Or any other topic for that matter. Doubt my credibility, use the ignore function. Allow me to lead by example Jimmy meet my ignore button. Please whine all you wish I won't be wasting my time reading them.


Jimmy24 said:


> My apologies to the OP for getting OT.


Not that it stops you from continuing on with the same off topic whine for two more posts


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

Startingout-Blair said:


> I'm sure he will correct me


Well I would, if you were, but you aren't, so I won't. Thanks for the kind words.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

Marcus said:


> I'd be surprised if folks here weren't a bit more knowledgeable (or at least more familiar) than the common man on the street. I shot my first gun (.22 rifle) at a young age and my first machine gun (M-60) at age 12.


As a whole I would agree. But have you read the ".22 caliber is the most effective caliber made posts" ? 
I had to wait until I was well into my 20's before I fired my first full auto and had to leave the state to do it.


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## Startingout-Blair (Aug 28, 2012)

LongRider said:


> Well I would, if you were, but you aren't, so I won't. Thanks for the kind words.


Thanks Longrider! ;-)


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

I bought a Cetme for my oldest boy to deer hunt with and whatever he needed a rifle for when he outgrew the cut down marlin 30-30 and his next brother in line was ready to start using it. I was very sorry I did, The trigger on the cetme is MISERABLE and I did every trick in my bag of tricks and reserched and hunted and never found a way to make that trigger really acceptable. The boy loves it and still has it but unless he has a actuall purpose built rest for it he shoots terrible and not as good as I would prefer even off a good rest. Seems to be robust and reliable but I just can't get over that trigger. lucky for me when looking for deer rifles the middle son decided he didn't like to hunt and youngest wanted a bolt action.So I didn't have to talk em out of geting a gun like their brothers. Youngest would have preferred my AR 15 but though they made it leagal for deer I don't feel it is an adequate deer round especially for new hunter. 
But all that rambling I"ll get to the OP I think for SHTF it will be hard to beat a AR-15 platform rifle as if your original supplies run out or are lost you will bea ble to find parts ammo magazines etc for if you are able to find them for anything. It is a Nato Chambering (DID I mention to be sure to make sure yours is a 5.56x45 NATO not a 223 chambering) it is effective easy to learn to use (sure the AK was given to peasants to use The Ar is given to 18 year old kids they learn quickly) 
I think a good 12ga repeating shotgun is a good idea to have around when things get close nothing stops the BG's like a full house load from a shotgun if they are close enough to hurt you you want them DEAD RIGHT NOW. 
A good 22 rifle is a must in my opininion if for no other reason than you can store (afford to store) lots and lots of it and if you have to go it on foot you can carry alot of it not that I'd want to be only armed with a 22 but I may not have the option of carrying a larger and heavier with bulkier heavier ammo MBR so it is the 22 and still have a thousand rounds or take that MBR and have 150 or so rounds not to mention the useful ness as a hunting poaching arm when ammo gets rare the ammo for that centerfire is gona be way to valuable to be popping a turkey off the roost in the wee hours. 

As for handguns I personally prefer to stay in nato caliber 9mm if I am only gonna have one. I love guns so have many but three of them are still 9mm and will still be running when the last of the 10mm ammo is gone and the witness has been lovingly oiled and wrapped for storage
But really in a handgun above all other arms person fit and preference is paramount so I say get what fits you and if there is any way possible shoot several before making a decision. if you can't do that then look at either a current millitary arm or what your local pd is carrying my reasoning there is "IN GENERAL" those guns have been selected to fit most, be easy to maintain, durable and reliable. That is not a perfect way to select but its better than getting some weird whiz bang that doesn't do any of those things for you and is not easy to get rid of at a fair price relative to what you gave for it.

OK I"m sure I forgot somthing but Im too tired to figure out what it is I"m sure someone will straighten me out or I will rearead in a day and fix it myself.


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## Immolatus (Feb 20, 2011)

LongRider, I think thats damned good advice.
Now, as a noob with little to no experience with gun, how would one go about finding someone like you to teach me? I am considering joining the Issac Walton league and hopefully find one there. They have a large facility very near to me. I aint rich enough to pay hundreds of dollars for individual instruction but if thats the only way to go, then I guess I'll have to...wait for it...bite the bullet.
Any advice? I think I have been bitten by the bug. I want to learn. Help?


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## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

Immo, there are numerous training schools available. Also, check with most ranges, they usually offer classes or have instructors that give private lessons. And it is great advise to go to a range that rents pistols. Try out the glock, sig sauer, s&w M&P, springfield and see how they feel. I love glocks cause they fit my paw and are super reliable but different guns for different hands. Once you pick the pistol you like then attend training classes and practice till your hands ache!! Enjoy the ride buddy!!


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

Immolatus said:


> LongRider, I think thats damned good advice.
> Now, as a noob with little to no experience with gun, how would one go about finding someone like you to teach me? I am considering joining the Issac Walton league and hopefully find one there. They have a large facility very near to me. I aint rich enough to pay hundreds of dollars for individual instruction but if thats the only way to go, then I guess I'll have to...wait for it...bite the bullet.
> Any advice? I think I have been bitten by the bug. I want to learn. Help?


First is any responsible friends that shoot or look at local ranges that have NRA safety courses. Also look around your area's training facilities. Many top notch firearms training facilities have basic beginner courses starting at $50 or so. They tend to be a requirement to take their more advanced classes so that is a good jumping off point. Check with ranges and training facilities that rent firearms. That way once you have the basics you can start looking at what suits you and your needs best. IMO your best bet is a trust worthy friend who is experienced and has a few different guns in different calibers


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

Might consider joining a gun club and coming early helping set up for some matches and start talking to folks there letting them know you would like to get into shooting but don't know where to start. My Club is PASA Park in Barry Il. (my membership has lapsed but I need to re up it). Dues were chep like $25 a year lots of great folks there and if someone showed up especially to help out and needing info and teaching they would have more help than they would know what to do with and any number of opportunities to try dozens of guns and while offering to pay for some amo is a good idea most would let you burn a mag or two and never blink about you paying for it. That would get you alot of starter trianing and even some fairly advanced training once you progressed as most of these guys love to see now shooters get started and enjoy the sport. ONce you got goind and got some basic gear you could join in some ipsc, or idpa shoots to hone handgun skills, For learning rifles you should get great mileage out of attending some CMP matchesthat is a civilian marksmanship progaram and they get some great buys on runs and ammo through the government they usually have loner rifles on hand and several guys that will walk you through it and teach you. And after making so many matches you are eligible to get a gun or guns at relatively low cost through the program old military rifles and now a days mostly old garands I think which aren't bad guns especially after you have been learning on one. match entry fees are low can't remember what it was last time i went but it wasnt much and was alot of fun.great place to make friends who shoot and like I say most love the oportunity to bring along a new shooter. 
http://odcmp.com/Clubs.htm aplace to look for cmp matches

Otherwise you can try looking locally for gun clubs that spnsor and have ipsc or idpa matches. Idpa may be a littlle better for learning reall fighting gun craft but both will get you started learning your gun and equiptment you will wnat to plan to attend a few and catch guys before and after for help and instruction to get started, THEN get your own gun and come and shoot the courses dont even try to keep up with the old timers just take your time make your shots count and eventually you will be fast and sure of yourself speed will come with practice.

That is what I would do as I don't and never will have the money to attend someplace like gunsite for proffessional training.

Almost forgot you might look for guys that give CCW training and testing you may have to call more than one to find it but I'm sure if you look you can find one of them that would for a more reasonable cost give your some basics training and help in selecting a firearm. I know the guiy that did my testing here would have and even mentioned it in his course.

As mentioned NRA is a good rescource too. http://nrainstructors.org/searchcourse.aspx


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

Sorry to double post but I remembered a couple of things.

ONe if you hang around the ipsc matches you are gonna see alot of big fancy rigs with doodads hanging all over em. Those are for the GAMERS not the guys that are learning to use a working gun. Stay away from those guns, now the guys are usually great unless they are some of the few who have won a few too many matches and now think their poo dont stink you'l recognize those and stay away from em. Don't get a fancy holster that lets you draw.004 faster etc get a good secure working holster (think police issue type here) and then play the game with that you won't be winning but you will be learning how to use the equiptment you need in the real world and in the real world you don't want your gun getting knocked out of your holster every time you bump your hip into somthing.

Also on the rifle side if you are on a tight budget Kel tec makes a series of 5.56 nato rifles that are worth a look IMO they won't give you all the parts compatability with all the ar's and stuff but they do share ammo and mags with them and are a less expensive way to get a decent defensive rifle.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

Immolatus said:


> LongRider, I think thats damned good advice.
> Now, as a noob with little to no experience with gun, how would one go about finding someone like you to teach me? I am considering joining the Issac Walton league and hopefully find one there. They have a large facility very near to me. I aint rich enough to pay hundreds of dollars for individual instruction but if thats the only way to go, then I guess I'll have to...wait for it...bite the bullet.
> Any advice? I think I have been bitten by the bug. I want to learn. Help?


I'm not Longrider, but I'll throw my two cents in. As a general rule, members of the firearms community are more than happy to help out, all you have to do is ask. Most likely, there are a number of people in your everyday life that can get you pointed in the right direction. The downside is that there are far more people out there with limited and/or incorrect information than those with extensive knowledge. The other hangup is that what works for someone else might not work for you. Read as much as you can, and if you think on it a bit, you'll likely be able to sort the wheat from the chaff.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

jsriley5 said:


> Sorry to double post but I remembered a couple of things.
> 
> ONe if you hang around the ipsc matches you are gonna see alot of big fancy rigs with doodads hanging all over em. Those are for the GAMERS not the guys that are learning to use a working gun. Stay away from those guns, now the guys are usually great unless they are some of the few who have won a few too many matches and now think their poo dont stink you'l recognize those and stay away from em. Don't get a fancy holster that lets you draw.004 faster etc get a good secure working holster (think police issue type here) and then play the game with that you won't be winning but you will be learning how to use the equiptment you need in the real world and in the real world you don't want your gun getting knocked out of your holster every time you bump your hip into somthing.
> 
> Also on the rifle side if you are on a tight budget Kel tec makes a series of 5.56 nato rifles that are worth a look IMO they won't give you all the parts compatability with all the ar's and stuff but they do share ammo and mags with them and are a less expensive way to get a decent defensive rifle.


The prices I've seen for the Keltec SU16 series rifles aren't really much less than an AR. I haven't looked around much lately, but I'd almost bet that if you're a careful shopper, you could get out the door with a basic M4 type rifle for around $650. Mechanically inclined folks could probably shave a few bucks off that by building their own.


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

Thanks haven't actually laid eyes on one on the shlef was just projecting from what the msrp is and what I ended up compared to msrp for my other kel tecs. If the price is gonna be the same the it's back to the AR platform then.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

zombieresponder said:


> The prices I've seen for the Keltec SU16 series rifles aren't really much less than an AR. I haven't looked around much lately, but I'd almost bet that if you're a careful shopper, you could get out the door with a basic M4 type rifle for around $650. Mechanically inclined folks could probably shave a few bucks off that by building their own.


Don't they have a PLASTIC RECEIVER?
no thanks.I feel funny still about the AR being only aluminum.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

Magus said:


> Don't they have a PLASTIC RECEIVER?
> no thanks.I feel funny still about the AR being only aluminum.


Funny I just got past the whole aversion to tupper ware guns with my XD afew years back. It is the best EDC I have ever had by far. Some of my AR's are almost completely plastic even the Pmags. Isn't the receiver of some Bushmasters plastic of some kind? As weird as it seems it makes our AR's more reliable, lighter, and impervious to the elements.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

LongRider said:


> Isn't the receiver of some Bushmasters plastic of some kind?


The Carbon 15

http://www.bushmaster.com/firearms/carbon_15.asp


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

Magus said:


> Don't they have a PLASTIC RECEIVER?
> no thanks.I feel funny still about the AR being only aluminum.


Most of the gun is plastic. I've never seen one disassembled, but I suspect it has steel rails, at minimum, molded into the receiver.

As far as the AR goes, there is no stress on the upper or lower receivers when the rifle is fired. The bolt is locked into the barrel extension. The receivers can be made of wood and the gun will be perfectly safe. It's actually been done, believe it or not.


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

I can see if somoene buys this for a child or a female where the weight savings is crucial and it wont see such hard use.
But there_have_ been durbaility problems reported with it in hard use.
So for a grown man who can take the extra weight and is relying on it to protect his family in a SHTF siutaion, I'd pass on the Carbon fiber parts.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

No kidding.my old bushmaster bullpup had a bolt that just ran on two springs,it never even touched the receiver I could tell.
I traded it for an AR.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

BlueZ said:


> But there_have_ been durbaility problems reported with it in hard use.


Can you please sight a reliable source for that? As my understanding is quite different polymer guns have been being used in combat for over forty years without issue (in respect to the polymer parts) that I am aware of. For a good thirty of those years I was a stanch anti Tupperware, REAL guns are made of steel guy so would have jumped on any evidence that validated my unfounded bias. We have to admit that there are some legitimate advances in tech. Plastics have proven to be more durable and stronger than steel and is far more resistant to the elements than our wood and steel guns. Carbon Fiber is used to build the Dream Liner air craft for a reason and I can imagine few things that requires more strength and durability than a trans Continental plane carrying hundreds of passengers.

As far as weight maybe I am a child and not a "REAL" man but I really appreciate packing 29 ounces instead of 2.5 pounds around on my hip all day.


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## FrankW (Mar 10, 2012)

LongRider said:


> Can you please sight a reliable source for that? As my understanding is quite different polymer guns have been being used in combat for over forty years without issue (in respect to the polymer parts) that I am aware of. For a good thirty of those years I was a stanch anti Tupperware, REAL guns are made of steel guy so would have jumped on any evidence that validated my unfounded bias. We have to admit that there are some legitimate advances in tech. Plastics have proven to be more durable and stronger than steel and is far more resistant to the elements than our wood and steel guns. Carbon Fiber is used to build the Dream Liner air craft for a reason and I can imagine few things that requires more strength and durability than a trans Continental plane carrying hundreds of passengers.
> 
> As far as weight maybe I am a child and not a "REAL" man but I really appreciate packing 29 ounces instead of 2.5 pounds around on my hip all day.


LR: I appreciate the ligc w/ lightness.

Keeping my mind the AR is one of the lightes guns ot beging with though at some point I am not willing to compromise rigidity by sqeezing out the ever last quant of lightness.
I am not talking about polymer parts on the gun like hnadles but structural elements.
Keeping in mind that Glocks are pistols not rrifles and as such subject to different kind of loads.

When the polymer receivers came out I was intrigued as well and not opposed.
But if you do some google image searches you can find pics of broke carbon Bushmaster carbon receivers and few, if any, of aluminum despite their much greater numbers.

Polymers have worked on guns desugned for hem for form the beginnign the AUG comes to mind. 
But on an AR they are not as good as the meal parts.

Note I didnt say they are unbuyable, just that there _is_ a compromise involved by which ones gains the extra lightness.
Before I recoverd form my injuries I was looking to lose every lbs on the gun possible as well.


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## sarge1967 (Nov 8, 2012)

LongRider said:


> OK I am going to get beat up for my opinion. But I completely disagree with all the recommendations of what anyone unfamiliar with guns should get for a survival arsenal. I will say here, what I say when anyone who is unfamiliar with guns asks me what gun they should get. I ALWAYS tell them DO NOT BUY A GUN. I suggest instead that they come shooting with me. I teach them firearms safety, often with a pellet gun. I emphasis that a gun is a deadly weapon and if they can not handle a pellet gun safely they should not touch a firearm. Than I teach them basics. Once they have an understanding, I have them plink a little with a couple of small caliber weapons. Next time out I try to expose them to a variety of different calibers hand guns, rifles, maybe a shotgun. I break each session up into; learning, going over the basics and than plinking at ranges that they can effectively shoot at. We always have coffee afterwards. I make a point of praising their progress and talk about which guns they liked shooting the most and why. We spend a lot of time talking about why they like a certain gun and caliber over another. In that way they make an informed decisions on what gun suits them the best. Decide for themselves what gun they should get. On rare occasions I may have to guide them away from a bad choice but in the vast majority of cases people make good choices. All the while I emphasis how much more important professional training is over what gun they buy. In many cases they take a firearms course or two before they even buy a gun. In those cases I will often loan them what they need to take the course.
> So that is my opinion those unfamiliar with guns SHOULD NOT NOT BUY A GUN. Instead they should get some professional training and practice, get familiar with guns. Than they will know what gun suits them the best.


Yes I agree 100%!


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

BlueZ said:


> if you do some google image searches you can find pics of broke carbon Bushmaster carbon receivers and few, if any, of aluminum despite their much greater numbers.


For whatever reason my Google Fu fails me, which is why I asked you as you made the statement for some verifiable credible links to some examples of that. Not trying to impugn the veracity of your statement or your credibility but I am loath to accept as fact anything someone says on the internet without verification from credible sources. Especially when it is contrary to my experience and understanding.

To be clear I am not suggesting anyone buy any weapon. I simply stated that to the best of my knowledge carbon or plastic parts on a gun do not inherently make it defective or substandard. If you have credible evidence that is incorrect as you say you do. I would appreciate your sharing that evidence.


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## aidanrayne (Nov 12, 2012)

Ok guys, here's another dumb gun question. I get that the .22 is gonna be a light gun, you're gonna be able to carry lots or rounds ect ect... That's all fine and dandy, but how much stopping power am I truly going to have? Squirrels and coyotes ok.. But what if I got a good line on a deer? Or had to eliminate another human target? How many rounds is that honestly gonna take at any distance over 5 feet?? And another one... If the .22 isn't going to be my best option for larger targets at any distance... What would be a good caliber? Thanks fellas.


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

What is your level of training? A 22 can do all you have listed but you are gonna have to be very choosy about the shot you take on a deer and get a clean head base of skull shot or you are likely to lose as many as you get. ON humans I would step it up as a 22 WILL kill but it is unlikely to immediately incapacitate unless you are skilled or luck enough to get a Central nervous system hit. As for what you move up to it will depend on your skill level and training. Need to know I lil bit more about you and what are you gonna prep for. Run and hide? Stand your Ground and Bug IN at home? lots of variables to be considered.
A general rule is as big as you can shoot well. you also need to consider how much ammo you need to carry and how far. But I stick with the general rule.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

I think the likelihood of having to use your .22 against a human target would be really rare.

A .22 is very often lethal. Don't expect death in .12 seconds.... of course, you would be foolish to expect that with any caliber, save for maybe .50 BMG.

Always have an alternate plan, do not "expect" instant incapacitation, ever.

92-year-old Kentucky farmer kills home intruder
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-09-04/intruder-alert/57580692/1


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## aidanrayne (Nov 12, 2012)

Well I'm a good shot. Spent 4 years USMC but I don't want to have to rely on that perfect shot to take down a target either. (And the human target is only in a SHTF type scenario. Not like I'm going hunting for y'all anytime soon.) currently my plan to bug in will only last a short while. Although I'm not in an urban area in only about 15 miles from a town of approximate 70,000. So my bug out plan is to head for an old hunting cabin owned by my family with my gf and 12 year old. I want to know that I have the right equipment not only for a light journey but being very selective as to what is going to give me the most uses also.


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## aidanrayne (Nov 12, 2012)

Also, what about these new kits that are converting ARs from 5.56 to .22? Anyone used one? Any big issues? Seems like it may be a worthwhile investment since I'm a big AR fan.


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

well from what I"ve seen of those kits you are pretty close to the cost of a whle Ruger 10/22 by the time you get the conversion paid for so I'd go ahead and get the second rifle thats my opinion though lots of folks love the conversions. As for what to reccomend on you first post well easy the same thing you trained with Get an AR on whichever format that pleases you. It will be familliar and unless you have really big critters where you are will if you are careful take about anything. If you are looking at Moose and Bear well might want to add a rifle in a bigger calliber take your pick there are a ton of em and anything form 30-06 to 458 Win mag will work I might consider somthing compact like the marlin guide gun in 45-70 or 450 marlin calibers. It's just really hard to get one gun that does everything well. You can get one that does it all but it will be weak in some catagories and strong in others.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

jsriley5 said:


> you are pretty close to the cost of a Ruger 10/22 by the time you get the conversion paid for


I agree.... hand the 10/22 to the 12 year old or your girlfriend to carry while you carry the AR. But make sure you ALL train on each firearms so everyone is familiar.



jsriley5 said:


> 458 Win mag will work ...


 ....to kill pretty much anything!! DO NOT shoot it without earplugs.


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

Yeah I was being "wildly inclusive" there NOt much call for anything bigger than 338 Win mag on this continent I was more showing that there was a ton to sort through and more info would help narrow down the choices some. If you are really into the one gun thing there are add on uppers for the AR Platform to allow it to take pretty much anything on the continent. But I usually vote to get the extra guns for the sake of redundancy. If it all revolves around that one lower reciever and somthing happens to it then....................................
Guess you can still make a spear. 

For most of the US you could split the difference and get the AR 10 or one of the multitude of other named Ar platform rifles in 308 win/7.62 NATO with a bit of ammo selecting it can kill anything in north america but would not be my first choice for a PO'ed Moose or bear.

I wouldn'reccomend shooting ANY including the 22 without plugs unless you have to or are hunting and only one shot is likely to be fired and even then if you can wear em.

I haven't put hands on one yet but Ruger is making the 10/22 in a take down version now. Early reports seem very promising. Might be a good choice. If you and your youngun survive at some point he won't be a child anymore I'd think you will want to plan for his future requirements. So extra guns aren't really extra. The lady of the house ought to be taught to shoot as well even if she resists it now first time somthing bad happens and firearms are involved I expect that to change be nice to have that 22 for training (light cheap ammo) and then somthing more authoritative for graduation. 

Just throwing things out there you can throw down here anytime with rebutals and we can adjust and fire for effect when we have the info on the table.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

jsriley5 said:


> I haven't put hands on one yet but Ruger is making the 10/22 in a take down version now.


They are sweet. My wife and I looked at one last week. I told her it is on my Christmas list but I won't shed any tears if I don't get one. It is built nice, and I think it will be very popular for a long time.

My wife's favorite is a Mossberg 702 Plinkster I got her. 
She is little: 5'3" and 104 lbs. The Plinkster is really comfortable for her to handle. It was also only $100.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

aidanrayne said:


> but how much stopping power am I truly going to have?


This is the question that .22 advocates never seem to grasp. I suspect because most have never been in a life or death struggle or gun fight. They will argue until the end of time that a .22 kills completely failing to understand that killing is irrelevant and I have yet to find a way to make anyone with that mind set to understand. Yes you can kill a human being with a .22 but the only way to INSTANTLY STOP a human being with a .22 is a brain scramble. That in turn is only reliably possible with a hit to the eyes, temple or base of the skull each about a golf ball size target. Although I have not met a SEAL, Ranger or any other combat vet ever claim that a .22 would be their number one choice for a defense weapon. Those that advocate .22 as an effective defensive round all seem to believe that they are SEAL, Mossad level shooters and can easily make that shot on a moving target while moving and being shot at. Chanting it is all about placement not caliber. Others will make the asinine argument that if a .22 is not an effective weapon let them shoot you with one. But seem to back off when I have invited them to do so with the understanding that the instant I perceive they are about to shoot me with a .22, or any other weapon I will defend myself with an effective man stopper like .223, .308, 12 gauge or .45 any of which I can reasonably expect to stop a human aggressor instantly with a hit COM. Being a mere mortal that is about the best I can do under fire and threat of death on a moving target while moving. Which is why those are my defensive calibers of choice though I have been known to carry a 9mm or .380 on rare occasions which does not make me feel naked but does make me feel like my fly is open and my junk is hanging out.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

I think a 10/22 with a few 25rd mags would be very effective for a member of your family (who is smaller in stature) to lay down a little suppressive fire while you acquire your target.

Of course, we can play scenarios all day. Hopefully none of us will be in that position.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

If a child can shoot a .22 they can shoot an AR15. I can not imagine what it would feel like to look down on the maimed, mutilated or dead body of my child knowing that they would be alive and well had I made the choice to spend a little extra on an AR instead of that inexpesive .22 that failed to defend them. My children are worth the few extra bucks.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

I started my oldest son out on a .22LR AR-15 (CMMG) and then moved him up to the 5.56mm version. Same manual of arms, same feel, same trigger, etc. He did not have any issues with the transition from no recoil to mild recoil but did with the overall weight (when standing). And while I do not consider the .22LR to be an adequate defense caliber, my boy can put holes in the face/head of a silhouette target all day long under normal conditions. I am confident that he _could_ defend himself with a .22LR based on the volume of training and range time he gets, but I would feel MUCH better if he was shooting the 5.56MM version or even the 9mm version if the SHTF.


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## OleSarge (Oct 30, 2012)

Sentry18 said:


> I started my oldest son out on a .22LR AR-15 (CMMG) and then moved him up to the 5.56mm version. Same manual of arms, same feel, same trigger, etc. He did not have any issues with the transition from no recoil to mild recoil but did with the overall weight (when standing). And while I do not consider the .22LR to be an adequate defense caliber, my boy can put holes in the face/head of a silhouette target all day long under normal conditions. I am confident that he could defend himself with a .22LR based on the volume of training and range time he gets, but I would feel MUCH better if he was shooting the 5.56MM version or even the 9mm version if the SHTF.


I started my kids with a single shot with open sights to teach the mechanics. Then a semi auto with open sights. I wanted them to be accurate without buying into accuracy by volume mentality. Now one prefers the 10/22 and the other would rather use my old bolt action daisy 22. My oldest was the hardest to teach because she is right handed and left eye dominant. I had to use a pair of glasses with the left eye covered to get her to shoot right handed and train her right eye. Now she is an excellent shot with no killer instinct, still working on that.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

LongRider said:


> I can not imagine what it would feel like to look down on the maimed, mutilated or dead body of my child knowing that they would be alive and well had I made the choice to spend a little extra on an AR instead of that inexpensive .22 that failed to defend them.


If things really got this bad, there would have been little more that could have been done, even if they had been shooting a .223 chambered rifle.

A scenario this BAD means we all need to go out and buy Barrett M82's tomorrow. That just isn't realistic. Not everyone on this board can afford AR-15's for each family member, and not each family member could/would want to haul it around.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

> I started my kids with a single shot with open sights to teach the mechanics. Then a semi auto with open sights. I wanted them to be accurate without buying into accuracy by volume mentality. Now one prefers the 10/22 and the other would rather use my old bolt action daisy 22. My oldest was the hardest to teach because she is right handed and left eye dominant. I had to use a pair of glasses with the left eye covered to get her to shoot right handed and train her right eye. Now she is an excellent shot with no killer instinct, still working on that.


I should have said "after thoroughly learning the basics" I started out my oldest son on a .22LR AR-15. His actual first long-gun was a Cricket single shot, then a Marlin 795 and then the AR-15. He prefers 30 rounds over the single shot Cricket.


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

Sentry18 said:


> I should have said "after thoroughly learning the basics" I started out my oldest son on a .22LR AR-15. His actual first long-gun was a Cricket single shot, then a Marlin 795 and then the AR-15. He prefers 30 rounds over the single shot Cricket.


Hehehhe yeah mine did to as long as I was still buying the ammo  I still have the cricket they started on and will be starting the grandson on it in a couple years. Then they diversified the oldest wanted a leveraction and ruger had just started making the 96/22 and that is what I got him. The middle boy liked the 10/22's I had so that is what I got for him. YOungest wanted a pump action, wasn't alot to choose from at the time so against my better judgement (Had/Have a little bit of gripe with Taurus) Got him the Taurus copy of the M62 winchester in stainless with the youth and adult stock. He is up to the adult stock now. It has actualy been a good rifle though so no complaints there. Boys all started deer hunting with a Marlin 30-30 that dad and I cut the stock down on to about a 12 inch length of pull. When they graduated off of that I got them a "Big Rifle" Oldest really wanted the CETME and still has it and likes it fine I tried to convince him to let me get somthing with a better trigger but he likes it. Middle son decided he didn't want a big rifle and wasn't intrested in killing things. So I have a rifle for him if he ever needs it and he can shoot "well enough" YOungest wanted a Bolt action and I got him a Savage 110. Gave the oldest my Mossberg 500 when he wanted to shoot trap in FFA, Middle boy "adopted" My single shot 20 GA, And I get THEM (the younger two) a Youth Model 500 12 ga. Liked it so well myself I got one recently for ME/US. After those they are on their own, They have had plenty of opportunity to shoot pistols with me and DAd Oldest has gotten his own 1911 (gets that from dad I:m a Beretta fan) So anyway purpose of all that is to show the proliferation of firearms in my household at least as far as the boys go.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

Sentry18 said:


> I should have said "after thoroughly learning the basics" I started out my oldest son on a .22LR AR-15. His actual first long-gun was a Cricket single shot, then a Marlin 795 and then the AR-15. He prefers 30 rounds over the single shot Cricket.


I started my girls and son all out on air rifles to learn the basics with, than a .22. Same as I would with a 30 year old man. But it is not what I would have anyone I care about use for a defensive weapon.



LincTex said:


> If things really got this bad, there would have been little more that could have been done, even if they had been shooting a .223 chambered rifle.
> 
> A scenario this BAD means we all need to go out and buy Barrett M82's tomorrow. That just isn't realistic. Not everyone on this board can afford AR-15's for each family member, and not each family member could/would want to haul it around.


How do you reach the conclusion, that if an adequate defensive round was actually needed resistance would be futile? All I said was I would not give someone I care about an inadequate defense caliber or pellet gun and tell them to defend their lives with it. IMO that is tantamount to a death sentence. As I said anyone who can shoot a .22 can shoot an AR. I don't think that is true of an Barrett M82. Nor do I think that a Barrett M82 is the most effective defensive weapon for most scenarios. Sorry I do not understand the thinking that says if a .22 is not adequate than you must need a Barrett M82. But if that is what you want to arm your people with good for you go for it.

I made an I statement about what I do. That said I also do not understand reasoning behind being able to afford to waste money on a caliber that does not work but unable to spend a few dollars more on something that actually does work. IMO spend what you think your families life is worth. If saving a few bucks is the priority, than go ahead save a few bucks and be honest about it, don't pretend that the smallest cheapest least effective caliber made is the best defensive round made.

As I said in the very beginning, if you want to use a .22 or give a .22 to someone you love to defend their life with because you or they are SEAL, Mossad level shooters able to instantly stop CNS function by hitting a moving golf ball sized target while being shot at and moving. Good for you, go for it as I said I have given up trying to convince you far superior shooters to do otherwise. As I also said personally I think anyone who thinks that a .22 is an adequate defensive caliber has never had to defend their own life form eminent death. I stand by that. Simply because I have never ever met anyone who has that would opt to use a .22 for self defense.

I can only speak for myself, knowing my limitations from experience defending my life. Once the shooting starts, being a mere mortal, my fine motor skills go out the window. In the fractions of a second I have to stay alive, the best I can hope to do is hit COM on a moving target. So I must rely on an effective reliable man stopping caliber to compensate for not having your level of expert precision spec ops marksmanship during combat. Personally I think most shooters are closer to my skill level which is why no military force on earth has ever fielded a .22 as their primary combat weapon.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

just to throw this out there, since ive seen money mentioned several times, and i myself am having funding challenges currently, you can build your own AR. Im not sure the final price is that much cheaper, but you can piece it together over time, which i know is easier on a tight budget.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Built mine for 750.


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## Boomy (Mar 17, 2012)

Built mine for $640 with a heavy barrel upgrade.









and on the .22 thing? I have known people who I trust who have taken deer, feral hogs, and even a couple of mountain lions with them. That being said we don't use them for yote hunting because the don't kill fast enough with out a head shot. I'd give the kid a 10/22. There is a difference between a raged out psycho and a criminal of opportunity. The later avoids resistance. 25 rounds of .22 caliber lead qualifies as such. Not everyone has the funds for an AR, and for the same price you could get two combat shotguns and a 10/22 which would more than provide for both protection and food.....


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

LongRider said:


> As I also said personally I think anyone who thinks that a .22 is an adequate defensive caliber has never had to defend their own life form eminent death. I stand by that.


I guess I should have clarified the scenario. 
The scenario in my head would be entirely on foot - in a situation with a family member on patrol, or while traveling on foot (Bug Out?).

Due to the weight of the rifle and ammo package, the only options are either 1) no gun at all, or 2) a lightweight one. My wife would get the AR with a couple 30 rd mags (or her WASR-10 if stepson would carry the AR), and even then she would not like the weight over time. She's small, only 5"3" and 105 lbs. She likes the Mossberg 702 Plinkster because it is super lightweight. If the scenario lasted for an extended period of time, she would be a more effective defender with the lighter weapon, than one who is fatigued by carrying a much heaver weapon/ammo package.

The real solution in this scenario is to have enough people large enough to carry weapons large enough... but if I have a small child that can't carry an AR around for two hours(true statement) but CAN indeed carry a composite stock 10/22, then they CAN be armed (with a lightweight small caliber rifle) instead of being unarmed.

That is the only point I am trying to make... between being lightly armed or unarmed, I chose to have the "smaller ones" at least lightly armed. I am sorry if you thought I meant full grown adults only, here.

My wife and 12 year old stepson can carry and shot an AR, but would have a hard time lugging one around for 6-8 hours.


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

OK for sake of argument for defense a light single shot in 223 will work out lighter than the 10/22 and with a mcace adapter could still do small game duty with 22lr. And probably pretty cheaply I haven't pricen any of the singles lately. I'ts an option though. And the lightweight singles have a variety of other calibers that would be efective defense rounds as well and still maintain the light weight move to the contender carbine and the caliber choice is huge but then the economics get thrown out the contenders arent cheap. 

Now that I have fed the argument my folding 10/22 would almost definitely make it into my party. But then the kiddo's aren't supposed to have to defend themselves The Finacee will be in charge of their defense with a 12 ga. And oldest step son would also have a Shotgun (12 ga ) for last ditch defense. I will have the AR. I hope I don't ever have to make the decision of which guns to have vs which to leave behind. Ideally everyone can have a serious defensive arm here at home. And still have the 22's for training and hunting as needed. Probably plan for everyone in a bug out scenario to have a handgun but right now that wouldn't happen simply because of a lack of training for the youngest. Whenb there is time training will be done and in a shtf it will get bumped up the priorities.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

jsriley5 said:


> I haven't priced any of the singles lately.


Times ain't what they used to be.... 
I think the Cricket is $100, any of the New England Handi-Rifles start around $180 (break action .223).

Ruger 10/22 is about $220 -$230... really hard to beat that. Great gun for the price.

Still finding Marlin model 60's in the $75-$100 range!! 
Never buy a Cricket when you can get a Marlin 60 for $100.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

LincTex said:


> That is the only point I am trying to make... between being lightly armed or unarmed, I chose to have the "smaller ones" at least lightly armed. I am sorry if you thought I meant full grown adults only, here.


So where does the BAR you mentioned previously come in at? As I have repeatedly said do as you will. IMO it would be better for them to unarmed. At least then they could make an intelligent decision to run and hide. Where as with a .22 they may be have the delusion that they have an effective defensive weapon, to defend themselves with. Then draw attention to themselves with their pop gun announcing "Hey jerk off with the .308 over here, shoot me, I'm over here." As should be clear by now I have the same opinion of a .22 as a primary defensive weapon as Jeff Cooper had about .25 handguns. When he said,


Jeff Cooper said:


> "&#8230; carry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it you may shoot it. If you shoot it you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody and he finds out about it he may be very angry with you.


Which is exactly what I have seen happen with a .22. Resulting in the shooter being beaten until he was crippled for life. As I have said I do not have you or your children's expert combat marksmanship able to hit a moving golf ball sized target while being shot at. To compensate for not being a SEAL, Mossad or Rambo. I use a caliber capable of stopping man with a hit COM.

Please do as you wish. I will never give a .22 to anyone to defend themselves with because once again I refuse to look down on the maimed mutilated murdered body of some one I love knowing they are laying there because I gave them the cheapest gun with the smallest least effective caliber possible to defend themselves with.

Look. I do not know how often you have had to defend your life, if ever. Nor do I know how many murders or attempted murders you have seen. My impression is few if any. That is not a put down. It is a good thing if you haven't. If that's the case I hope you never have too. I know wish I could say that. I do not want to come off as trying to sound like a bad ass or expert I'm neither. I have seen far to many deaths more importantly how tenacious and difficult human beings are to stop. Nothing you or anyone can say will convince me that a .22 is a viable defensive round. I have seen it fail.

Self defense is not sniping or hunting, there is no relationship not even close. Maybe you have personal experience that makes you confidant that a .22 is a consistently effective defensive round. If so go for what you know, but you will never convince me. At the risk of sounding like a broken record I can assure you that looking down on the maimed mutilated body of a beloved child is the most horrific thing anyone can ever experience. The last thing you will want is even the slightest possibility that you could have prevented it. You'd gladly spend a few extra bucks or listen to the whining about the few extra pounds not to ever see that.

There is a reason that No military, No Law Enforcement Agency, No Security Agency, No Contractors, No Body Guards use .22 caliber as their primary weapons caliber. Do you know any professional who opts to use a .22 as their primary self defense caliber? Don't you think there is a legitimate reason for that?


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

I have read everything you have typed and I comprehend it. 
You are correct in assuming that the amount of times I have had to defend my life can be counted on one hand, with a couple fingers left over (more depending on how the situation "could have" went instead). 
It is still that many times too many, IMHO. One thing I do not ever enjoy experiencing is the adrenaline flood that comes from such experiences, as I find it to be most unpleasant.

I value your honesty about your experiences, and I also value your input. 
The only thing I would wish to debate is this:


LongRider said:


> At least then they could make an intelligent decision to run and hide. Where as with a .22 they may be have the delusion that they have an effective defensive weapon, to defend themselves with. Then draw attention to themselves with their pop gun...


This can be avoided by training them. My wife and my kids know well enough to not attempt any engagement when out-numbered and/or out-gunned. Sure, they need to run and hide, but there is no reason for me to believe they would give up their hiding position by engaging the threat. They are not foolish in that respect. (Although I must credit my wife; if facing a far greater number and in a position to defend her kids she would do everything in her power to stop the threat, even if it meant she would expire in the process)

Having said they will NOT be foolishly discharging their weapon....

Let's say your argument for sending them off to go hide "unarmed" would be mainly because of the burden of carrying a rifle? Fair enough; let me at least give them a pistol so they will not be defenseless if their hiding place is found.

The scenarios could escalate out of control in this debate.

If myself and my family were confronted by two "bad guys" with intentions of killing and then robbing us (post mad max world), we should (as a family) be able to pose enough of a threat (especially if we all carried light rifles and sidearms to boot) to hopefully make the pair of creeps reconsider.

What if we are confronted with a group of twenty? Even if every family member carried an AR-15, a group that size poses a serious threat due to the difficulty of quickly acquiring the target and placing a good shot. We would definitely need to remove from the situation, but our options are still very limited to to sheer numbers, which is a factor beyond our control.

Hell, even my experience with successfully acquiring fast moving targets is very limited, and trying to duplicate a running human artificially is extremely hard to do (for training purposes). The closest thing I could equate would maybe be rabbits, and "skillfully" (versus luck) shooting rabbits on the fly, that is really difficult.

What I am trying to say, is: It depends on the scenario.

Myself and family, armed with a combination on AK-47 for me, AR-15 for wife, and 10/22 for stepson and Mossberg Plinkster for daughter are capable of handling "X" number of threatening persons (2, 3 armed, 10 unarmed, whatever).

Let's change the scenario slightly....Give 10/22 to daughter and give stepson an AR-15, and the number of "X" might go up by one (or two, etc.) more threats that can be dealt with effectively.

That could be significant on that particular scenario... but what if the numbers increase substantially? Hell, what if EVERYONE carried an AR-15, we would still be only able enough to handle "X" number plus may a couple more!!!

So, all I am trying to say is this: 
I am not arguing that a .22LR is an effective weapon when judged against an AR-15. Yes, I agree that carrying more powerful weapons increases your force abilities, HOWEVER... there ARE limits. I believe that if a child can NOT *practically* carry and operate an AR-15, then they shouldn't be denied the carry and possible operation of a 10/22, if they are capable of doing so.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

In a SHTF situation I do not plan on shooting people every single day. Once I kill everyone in a thousand mile radius of my BOL I will spend a relaxing day hunting with my .22 rifle.


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

And we are forgetting the other side as well. While the 22 is a poor choice for stopping a determined attacker or at least doing so quickly. The flip side is getting hit by a 22 is still very high on my list of things NOT TO DO. The mere potential of being hit by the next little buzzing round to be sent my direction way largely effect my desire to persist. And I think especially in a aftermath that will be true for the bag guys to as long as they aren't all mindless zombies. If they have been doing their thing for a minute or two they will have experienced a member of their crew getting injured and dying for lack of medical attention. While they may not care about the afflicted individual they will all be thinking about their own skins and be highly desirous of not gettin any (even tiny) holes in it. A stream of lil 22's may very likely be a mind changer. Of course that just means they will be sneaky and wait till the group is sleeping or otherwise let their guard down but the 22 could potentially stop a attack. 

Yeha I know I"m arguing both sides of things. I do have a 10-22 and I did just buy a few more bananna mags for it. That said it is not up to main weapon status. It would likely be given to a non combatant in the group and if worse came to worse could be used for last ditch defense at point blank ranges with somthing like the velocitor ammunition. But the main reasn they are carrying it is so that if we stop for a day I can pick up the rifle and go pick off some pot moeat without making excess noise or expend my more valuable big gun ammo. But then as mentioned earlier maybe this is a place for the conversion kit and I just carry that and switch to go hunting and the lil guy can carry a h and r survival carbine in 357 magnum, or 45 lc 410 my dislike there is if I run into somthing while hunting and my rifle is in 22 lr mode it could be game over while I either fight that way or try to switch over while being agressed. There are just Tons and tons of potential scenarios. And murphy will surely throw the one you are least prepped for at you. 

To just stand upon your high horse with your crystal ball and tell someon you are wrong,stupid, ignorant etc etc is just as wrong stupid and ignorant and a good bit of arrogant. Give options, explain your reasoning, give alternates and their reasoning and let an inteligent individual make informed choices. Its not all you CAN do but I think is probably all you SHOULD do.


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

aidanrayne said:


> Ok guys, here's another dumb gun question. I get that the .22 is gonna be a light gun, you're gonna be able to carry lots or rounds ect ect... That's all fine and dandy, but how much stopping power am I truly going to have? Squirrels and coyotes ok.. But what if I got a good line on a deer? Or had to eliminate another human target? How many rounds is that honestly gonna take at any distance over 5 feet?? And another one... If the .22 isn't going to be my best option for larger targets at any distance... What would be a good caliber? Thanks fellas.


*Go back and look at old you tube vids of Reagan getting shot with a 22 pistol. You not gonna see much of Reagan but look at the Secret Service agent. Hit and down, uniformed col, Hit and down, Brady Hit and down... Will the 22 LR pick a person up and throw them thru the big window??? Nope. but neither will a shotgun..

A deer shot in the guts with a 30-06 won't fall down dead. It will run away and die else where... People in battle have absorbed a lot of damage and kept fighting.

A 22 is really one of the worst bullets to get hit with. It gets in but cant get out so it bounces around doing a lot of damage.

Don't be put off by it's size. *


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

The op asked about a survival-arsenal for non-gun-familliar. Everyone should have a 22 rifle in their survival arsenal. That is not saying that is their only gun. In a survival situation I would use a 22 for most of my meat hunting. Like I said above you won't be shooting people constantly( I assume). I would be content with a 5-gun arsenal - long range rifle(up to 500 yds), mid-range auto rifle(.223 or 7.62x39 or similar), 22 rifle, shotgun, pistol(your choice- mine would be a hi-cap 9mm).


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

HozayBuck said:


> *Go back and look at old you tube vids of Reagan getting shot with a 22 pistol. You not gonna see much of Reagan but look at the Secret Service agent. Hit and down, uniformed col, Hit and down, Brady Hit and down... Will the 22 LR pick a person up and throw them thru the big window??? Nope. but neither will a shotgun..
> 
> A deer shot in the guts with a 30-06 won't fall down dead. It will run away and die else where... People in battle have absorbed a lot of damage and kept fighting.
> 
> ...


I would only use a 22 if that's all I had. I've shot enough stuff with it to realize that it sucks for anything serious. I shot one coyote 15 times in the head/neck/chest and it still managed to limp off into the brush. Each time I shot, the coyote fell down, then got back up. If a 35-40 pound coyote can absorb 15 rounds and keep going, then it's going to be even less effective at stopping larger animals.


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

15 shots to stop a coyote???? Yeah, I"ve known some other people who shoot like that too


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## fedorthedog (Apr 14, 2011)

I hear a lot about bullets bouncing around. In 30 years as a leo I have never seen a wound caused by that. I have seen wounds from bullets fragments which a soft lead 22 will do if it hits bone. I have also seen the wound path change when a bullet hits bone.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

jsriley5 said:


> 15 shots to stop a coyote???? Yeah, I"ve known some other people who shoot like that too


FYI, I used to shoot several thousand rounds a month through that rifle...enough that I shot flying birds with it, rarely did I miss. For all I know, the bullets deflected off the skull rather than penetrating. Either way, it's a last ditch choice for me.


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

*Only speaking from what I know for a fact because I did it. I've killed several deer with the 22 LR. All head shots all dropped and while I did give then a second shot they weren't going anywhere.

This argument about the abilities comes up all the time and always brings out the same arguments..

I know what a 22 will do for me. For you? maybe you need a Blowchester Mangelem it matters not to me.

For all the new and not gun savvy people in here. The 22 LR will do the 
job period and it will harvest all the meat you can ever eat in or out of a SHTF event.

If you are just starting the 22 is the cheapest way to learn and improve. As time goes by and you're able to afford something else then by all means do so, get whatever you want and can handle.

Just remember this, most of the people spouting off about all the power you need most likely have never spent 5 minutes in a life threatening situation and also remember the so called experts who write for the gun magazines are getting paid to endorse whatever the flavor of the day is.

I don't have a dog in this fight but I will keep hammering about what I know if I think it will help a newby.

10-22 Ruger sells at WM for around $200.00 , 5500 rounds of ammo about $150.00 . High cap 25 round magazines around 20 bucks a pop give oir take a buck or two. ant a scope? $30 to 50 bucks...

So for around $500.00 give or take a buck you can own the best 22 rifle made outside some very high priced match guns.

AR 15 plus all the above goodies ..around a grand give or take...

So if you're a newby to shooting will you get more practice with the 22 or the 223 at the cost of ammo today?

As I said before I really don't have a dog in this fight simply because I've lived and learned for 70 years. Been over the Mountain down the creek and seen the fat lady sing.
*


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Pretty much all that needs said.a tricked out 10/22, 10,000 rounds and a 12pack of mags.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

HozayBuck said:


> Go back and look at old you tube vids of Reagan getting shot with a 22 pistol. You not gonna see much of Reagan but look at the Secret Service agent. Hit and down, uniformed col, Hit and down, Brady Hit and down...


*BS* Hinckley used "Devastator" explosive ammo which contained aluminum and lead azide explosive charges designed to explode on contact. The bullet that hit Brady likely exploded in his skull. Had he been hit with any other caliber he would be dead. Brady was the only one seriously injured.

Reagan did not go down he was hit while already being pushed into the presidential limo by Agent Jerry Parr. He was hit under the left arm pit, the bullet grazed a rib punctured his lung and stopped one inch from his heart. Reagan was unaware that he had been shot. Both he and Agent Parr thought Reagan had a broken rib from being pushed into the limo. Agent Parr thought the rib had punctured a lung, once President Reagan started spitting up blood. Reagan was up and conscious the entire time and walked into the hospital, as no gurney was available when he arrived. When his wife got to the emergency room, Reagan remarked to her, "Honey, I forgot to duck" borrowing a line from an old movie, In the operating room, Reagan removed his oxygen mask to joke, "I hope you are all Republicans." The Doctors commented that what saved his life was that he was hit with such a tiny bullet a .38 or any other caliber would have penetrated to his heart and killed him.

Timothy McCarthy used his body as a shield to protect the President and was hit in the abdomen and released from the hospital after a few days of observation with no serious injury.

Police Officer Delahanty was shot in the neck and fell to the ground because he thought that is what is what is supposed to happen when you are shot. He was hit in the spine and suffered nerve damage to his left arm. Had he been hit with any other caliber he would be dead.

Contrary to your attempt to distort of the facts to argue that a .22 is devastating effective killer caliber. The truth is the Reagan Assassination attempt is a perfect example of how ineffective a man stopper .22 caliber really is. Even with exploding rounds of ammunition at point blank range the .22 caliber bullet was unable to penetrate Brady's skull well enough to stop CNS function. Unable to stop a 70 years old man with the perfect shot. Under the left arm is the perfect heart shot. So much for placement when you are using an ineffective caliber. As the doctors said any other caliber would have penetrated the heart and killed the president. After being shot a 70 year old man walked into the hospital and joked with his family and hospital staff until his surgery to remove the bullet. A direct hit to Officer Delahantys spinal cord did not stop CNS function virtually any other caliber would have severed his spinal cord or at the very least instantly crippled him for life.

A heart shot, a head shot and a direct hit on the spine all FAILED.



HozayBuck said:


> A 22 is really one of the worst bullets to get hit with. It gets in but cant get out so it bounces around doing a lot of damage.


Pure unadulterated BS that confirms a complete lack of knowledge understanding of ballistics or experience with firearms. Do you even own a fire arm? Have you ever hunted. Have you ever shot a gun in your entire life. Your statement implies not. As well as evidence that you have difficulty comprehending what you read. A perfect example of someone posting something they read on the internet as if they know something and distorting the facts to make their erroneous point.

Your statement appears to come from the stories that hit men would often opt for a .22 for executions, because they are cheap disposable and relatively quiet or easy to silence / suppress. A .22 caliber pistol proved to be an effective execution tool if used at point blank range shooting the victim at a soft entry point into the skull. Most often the base of the skull. After entering the skull a .22 does not have enough energy to exit so it bounces around the inside of the skull scrambling the brain stopping CNS function and life, That is the ONLY reliable consistent way to stop anyone with a .22

A .22 DOES NOT bounce around inside a human body. Bodies are not skulls there is nothing about a human body that would keep a bullet, even a .22 from exiting. Bullets do not just take random turns around inside a body. A .22 may hit a bone and not having enough energy to penetrate the bone may ricochet in another direction but does not bounce around inside the body.

Bullets that tumble do so as a function of design according to unsubstantiated rumor about .223 rounds that allegedly were initially designed to tumble. Maybe some Nam era vets can chime in on this and provide clarification. On occasion a malfunction with the bullet or firearm causes a bullet to tumble as seen when a round key holes a target which is less than desirable as those rounds are inherently inaccurate . Either way tumbling is not a function of caliber.


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

Earlier this year we had a similar discussion. Some of the same participants. Here's my testing:
http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f39/weapons-tools-9154/index4.html#post109507


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

LongRider, I have a couple of things to say about your well written post above concerning the Reagan shooting. The gun used had a 1-3/4" barrel so had maybe 60% of the velocity that it would from a 16" barrel. Also the bullet that struck Reagan was a ricochet (it hit the car then Reagan) so no one can know the speed or condition of that bullet. The fact that these were "Devastator" explosive ammo, most likely has no bearing has standard 40 grain loads might or might not have been more effective. They think only one of the six "Devastator" explosive bullets actually exploded(the one that hit Brady) and even that one they are not sure. I do agree that a 22 does not have much stopping power and just like any hunting you should match your gun to your game, whether it is squirrel, moose or man.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

hiwall said:


> The gun used had a 1-3/4" barrel so had maybe 60% of the velocity that it would from a 16" barrel.....standard 40 grain loads might or might not have been more effective.


These are the first things that went through my mind as well. 
I did not know about the ricochet. I think a "hotter" round (1250+ FPS) from a rifle would have had a very different outcome.


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

Magus said:


> Pretty much all that needs said.a tricked out 10/22, 10,000 rounds and a 12pack of mags.


You mean I was suppose to stop at 10,000 rounds? Shoot, I wasted all that money.


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## Boomy (Mar 17, 2012)

Well I guess someone needs to tell all the deer that have been poached with .22's that they were confused and still alive. This thread reminds me of all the others that say that you can't hunt boar with a .233 or that a 9mm in not an acceptable defensive round because it's not a .45.

In a bad situation I'll take a paintball gun over nothing. A few paintballs in the head from a cranked gun are enough to stun/disorient an attacker. A five shot burst from a 10/22 should be a little more effective than that?

My .45-70 would be a definite one shot kill, but I'm not going to hand it to my kid if she's a better shot with a smaller gun.

Just like hunting take the gun you're good with. The rest will work it's self out....


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

Agreed Boomy but all that aside I would not PLAN for my kiddo to be armed with a 22. I would much rather they be armed with a lil 357 carbine or a lil 223 single shot. But the 22 has killed and I"m sure will kill again. I think most attackers will be looking for easy pickings and getting shot at or shot with a 22 is not easy. That said it may not stop a starvng mass who is highly motivated by the smell of cooking food coming from your site. If the 22 is all I end up with I'll use it aNd will not feel like I should just give up cuz I only have a 22. But I"m not PLANNING on just having a 22.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

HozayBuck said:


> *Only speaking from what I know for a fact because I did it. I've killed several deer with the 22 LR. All head shots all dropped and while I did give then a second shot they weren't going anywhere.
> 
> This argument about the abilities comes up all the time and always brings out the same arguments..
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure I've stated it here before, but I'll state it again just to be sure. My great grandfather used .22 shorts to kill 400+ pound hogs. He was also able to walk right up to them and put the muzzle behind their ear to do so. I've seen numerous videos of people killing game up to bison with airguns. Come to think of it, I've even seen a video of a fellow in Arkansas(I think, may have been Lousiana) running through rice fields barefoot, at night, with a spear, into herds of hogs and killing several before the hogs even knew what what going on. I've known people who hunted hogs and deer with nothing more than a knife.

All of that aside, pointing out that something is a _less than optimal choice_ for large game is not the same as saying it won't work. It will work, but as power and bullet weight decrease, so does the margin of error.


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## Boomy (Mar 17, 2012)

Jsriley5- Agreed! Ideally in that scenario I'd like 'em to have a small carbine (.40 or 9mm). For purely bug out, a .22 has its place in a sea of .223 and 7.62 for food gathering (and a side of defense). It is quieter and easier on game. The horde can track the sound of a .223 much better and will assume a deer went down. Better for them to think squirrel while you take a deer. Also the scenario assumes a straight on confrontation? That's against my personal set rules. Best not to be seen in the first place, and if you are, take the cheap shot from the bush. 1st rule of a gun fight- if you are playing fair you are doing it wrong.

I don't mean to come across argumentative or Rambo jr with a pea shooter. I believe small arms have their place, and there are those out there who can not afford better. That's fine. Learn your tool and take it as far as you can. Learn your limitations with it. I've had .22's that I would trust far more than a Rem 7mag that I had and was not proficient with. Heck I'd probably take a 10/22 over either of my previous SKS's because "I" am better with it. Now my personal hunting/bugout toy is not a .22, but 20 years ago that is all I had and I was very very good with it....


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