# Generator to house hookup



## rachilders

I've been told that you can plug a portable generator into one of your homes power outlets and it will power the homes other outlets.

The procedure was this: Run a line from the generator to one of your homes outlets after cutting the external power off at the homes main power box. You can then use the outlets in your home as long as you don't exceed your generators power rating.

Does anyone know for sure (especially one of you electricians) if this is true?


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## Denny

That is incorrect. Power has to be distributed through the main feed in the electrical panel. Now, you can hook up a generator and run it to the panel via a switch gear (switching the source from main power to generator power), which could send the generator's power through each circuit throughout the house that goes through that panel.


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## rachilders

Thanks for the heads up. I thought there would be more to it than simply running a power cord from the generator to an outlet.

OTOH, it seems if I run power DIRECTLY to the fuse box, the procedure will work and it can be done fairly easily.


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## Denny

Being from Longview, you must have heard that from someone in Henderson


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## guyfour

I was born in Longview


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## TechAdmin

Lots of Texans on the forum I've noticed. Never heard anything about the OP. Always heard of generator hooking into the main feed box.


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## guyfour

How does it hook to the main fuse box, is there a sort of plug or do you have to clamp bare wires?


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## JeepHammer

You can 'SAFELY' (Safe, but I didn't say up to code!) wire your generator into your breaker panel a couple of different ways...
The way you describe isn't one of them.

If you insist on using an extension cord (or two) just plug into the genset and run the cords in the house and plug in the essentials directly to the genset, Fridge, a couple of lights, cell phone charger, what ever else you might need to use....
------------

BUT,
To answer your question,
*YES.* You can simply run an extension cord from your generator using the traditional male plug and plug that cord into a standard outlet using a NON-Traditional male plug on the other end.
*
This is a BAD IDEA on may levels, but it will work.*

First of all, an extension cord is just too small to conduct much current,
You run the very real risk of starting fires.

Secondly, The 'Male' end prongs sticking out on the house end are 'HOT'! This presents a very real electrocution hazard.

Third, With the current passing into the wall outlet, there is absolutely NO OVER CURRENT PROTECTION in the line anywhere!
Again, if you over tax that circuit, it has a real chance of heating up and catching fire!

For all practical reasons, you shouldn't consider doing things that way, and you should discourage others for even talking about it and spreading the idea!


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## JeepHammer

This is what you will need for a connector since the contacts incoming will be 'Hot' and have to be protected,
AND,
The socket going into your electrical system will have to be protected also, since they stand a chance of being 'Hot'...








You might not need one this large, but you will need something very similar.
-------------------------------------
-------------------------------------

The safest way to connect your generator to a home breaker panel is with an 'Interlock' or 'Lockout'.

There are some different types, but mine looks like,
An electrical box you install before your main breaker box,
With two 'Main Breakers' side by side.
There is a metal bar that has a flat sliding 'Tab' on it that will only let you have one breaker 'ON' at a time.

One breaker is connected to the outside 'Grid' service,
The other is connected to the generator.

Very simple and practical, you simply CAN NOT have the Grid power and the Genset power on at the same time!
-----------------------------

This is a schematic/diagram of a 'Transfer Switch' for home generators.










And here is the web site I stole that from,
http://www.smps.us/transferswitch.html

Here are some sources, articles...
http://www.generatorjoe.net/ts.asp?gclid=CNzf09ewqpYCFQObFQodox2Ixg
http://www.ronhazelton.com/howto/home_generator_installation.htm
http://mayberrys.com/honda/generator/html/transfer.htm
http://www.gen-tran.com/
http://cvfsupplyco-store.stores.yahoo.net/mahogetrsw.html
http://www.steadypower.com/catalog/rc_intro.php?gclid=CISN1f2uqpYCFQIWFQodJ2jVyg


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## kc5fm

*Suicide Plugs*



rachilders said:


> I've been told that you can plug a portable generator into one of your homes power outlets and it will power the homes other outlets.
> 
> The procedure was this: Run a line from the generator to one of your homes outlets after cutting the external power off at the homes main power box. You can then use the outlets in your home as long as you don't exceed your generators power rating.
> 
> Does anyone know for sure (especially one of you electricians) if this is true?


What you are describing is called a "suicide plug". From Popular Mechanics,

_
13. RE: 4 Steps to Power Your Home When the Grid Fails
NEVER use a suicide plug. FIRST if you forget to turn off the correct breakers, you can KILL a lineman. if you reverse polatity you can KILL a lineman. if you fail to properly ground everything you can KILL a lineman.. it's nowhere reasonable to risk someone life so you can look cool, just run a cord if you don't have the proper transfer switch, installed by someone that knows what an isolated ground can do. _

A better solution is to have an electrician wire a transfer switch to your service. *That* will keep the lineman safe.

Thanks for bringing this question to the table.


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## JeepHammer

Now, if you are really cheap ba$tard and you want to wire you home for a temporary generator in an emergency situation,

This only works with small, 'Portable' Gensets, and this IS NOT the 'Proper' way to do things, and it's NOT TO CODE!
----------------------------

*TURN OFF THE MAIN BREAKER AT THE 'TOP' OF THE PANEL!*

Get yourself a 30 amp side-by-side breaker intended for a 220 volt appliance, like a water heater, ect.
And leave it OPEN (nothing connected to it) in the breaker box.
LEAVE THE BREAKER TURNED 'OFF'!
---------------------------

BUY AND STORE WIRE LONG ENOUGH TO REACH FROM THE GENERATOR TO THE FUSE PANEL, 
AND BUY A 220 VOLT PLUG (Male) THAT FITS YOUR GENERATOR.
Virtually all the generators larger than the suit case size ones have a 220 volt outlet, make sure your plug fits that outlet.

USE AT LEAST 10/3 GAUGE WIRE! 
That means 10 Gauge conductors, 3 insulated Conductors, and a bare earth ground wire.
Flexible wire is MANDATORY if you are going to use the generator for longer than a few days,
Solid wire is OK for a day or two, but the generator vibration will eventually stiffen and break the wire conductors.

Install the plug on the wire.
Wiring options will be...

Black, Red, White, Bare.
Black & Red are conductors, or 'Hot' legs and connect to the two breakers you installed in the box.
White is 'Neutral' and will need to be connected to the bar in the breaker box where the other 'White' wires are.
Bare will be EARTH GROUND, and must be connected to an EARTH GROUND ROD.

Black, White, Green, Bare.
Black & White are conductors, or hot legs and connect to the two breakers you installed in the box.
Green would be the 'Neutral' and gets connected to the same place in the box as the 'White' wires from other circuits, 
Bare would be the Earth Ground.

When you have turned 'OFF' the main breaker,
Then, and ONLY THEN, do you start the generator,
And then you can turn the double breaker you installed in the box on for power to your panel.

If you EVER turn the main breaker on with the generator attached to the system, you stand a very real chance of electrocuting line workers trying to fix the power,
AND,
As a double bonus, you stand a pretty good chance of burning your house down or burning the generator up right where it sits!

BOTH MUST BE OFF BEFORE THE OTHER IS TURNED ON!
AND BOTH CAN NEVER BE ON AT THE SAME TIME!

I don't recommend this, it's dangerous, not up to code and I'm NOT trying to sell it as a home game!

If you don't fully understand how the breakers and electrical system works, DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS!


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## rachilders

I do appreciate all the replies from everyone. FWIW, the first reply from *Denny* was all I really needed to know. I'm already aware of the problems tapping into a household circuit from a second power source can cause (possible fire, overloading the circuit/generator, possible danger to linemen, etc) which is why I haven't tried this method. I really just wanted to ask around a bit and get second opinions before talking to a professional electrician.

Anyway, up to now I've simply run extension cords to the items I wanted to power with my generator and will probably continue to do the same in the future, at least until I can have an electrician give me a price for wiring my fuse box to accept a generator.


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## JeepHammer

That's all right, the added responses might have answered someone else's questions, or inspired some though in someone for a good idea or two!


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## concernedcitizen

Is there any danger of frying the circuits if you have the generator hooked up to come out of the outlets and the power came back on?


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## Denny

concernedcitizen said:


> Is there any danger of frying the circuits if you have the generator hooked up to come out of the outlets and the power came back on?


Not if you use a switchgear. But there's always the possibility of surges while on gen power. It's not a regulated flow like from the transformer on the power line.


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## dragonfly

What could cause a generator to surge enough to overload the input regulation of devices?


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## Denny

dragonfly said:


> What could cause a generator to surge enough to overload the input regulation of devices?


Bad fuel, running out of fuel and/orc mechanical problem to the generator motor.


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## JeepHammer

concernedcitizen said:


> Is there any danger of frying the circuits if you have the generator hooked up to come out of the outlets and the power came back on?


Not if you disconnect the main breaker in the breaker box before doing ANYTHING else with the generator.
------------------------------



Denny said:


> Not if you use a switchgear. But there's always the possibility of surges while on gen power. It's not a regulated flow like from the transformer on the power line.


Generators are pretty good about keeping the 'High' voltage limit from exceeding safe limits, so 'Surges' aren't really the big deal with generators...

What Generators usually have problems with is 'Brown Outs' when the small generator engine stumbles or sputters, RPM's will slow, and production will drop...
Things go 'Dim' and we call it a 'Brown Out'!

Also, Production should be around 60 Herts, or 60 Cycles per second...
That's AC or Alternating Current switching polarity 60 times a second, or there about...

That cycle can swing when the generator slows down or speeds up, so it's usually a good idea NOT to run sensitive electronic equipment directly off of a generator...
Use a power filter like a battery back up unit that will 'Smooth Out' the problems in the power before it gets to the sensitive equipment.


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## ke4sky

kc5fm said:


> What you are describing is called a "suicide plug". From Popular Mechanics,
> 
> _
> 13. RE: 4 Steps to Power Your Home When the Grid Fails
> NEVER use a suicide plug. FIRST if you forget to turn off the correct breakers, you can KILL a lineman. if you reverse polatity you can KILL a lineman. if you fail to properly ground everything you can KILL a lineman.. it's nowhere reasonable to risk someone life so you can look cool, just run a cord if you don't have the proper transfer switch, installed by someone that knows what an isolated ground can do. _
> 
> A better solution is to have an electrician wire a transfer switch to your service. *That* will keep the lineman safe.
> 
> Thanks for bringing this question to the table.


Refer to the info I posted in Types of Generators

If a backup generator is to be connected to a building electrical service, NEC requires that it be equipped with a double-pole, double throw transfer switch. If you fail to do so and a utliity worker is killed due to your negligence you are both civil and criminally liable.

*Be stupid, go to jail, go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.*


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## JeepHammer

*OK WE GOT IT...*
You found the NEC code and cut & pasted it.
-----------------------------

Now, for the rest of you out there,

Disconnect the main breaker at the 'Top' of the breaker box, and use a 30 to 50 amp breaker in the box to connect a generator to you home...
IN THE EVENT OF AN EMERGENCY.
*
I strongly recommend you follow the links I posted on page 1 of this thread, to the proper manual and automatic switching,*

But in the event of devastating natural disaster, like when tornado or hurricane removes the electrical grid virtually completely, and you have access to a generator, then you can 'Sneak' a circuit into your box SAFELY...
Just remember the Mains MUST be removed, or the meter must be removed to make it 'Safe'...


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## Tex

When I get a generator, I will use a Break Before Make maintenance bypass switch for a UPS. My primary feed will be utility, and I will switch to generator feed manually when the need appears. I should be able to find a used bypass switch at work.


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## JeepHammer

I wish I could find a reasonably priced transfer switch application that would work.

Right now, I throw the main breaker in the box, then run my Genset on a 220v 50 Amp breaker in the service panel.

I just keep a security tab over the Genset breaker to make sure no one turns it on by mistake.
Security tab has a big warning to turn the main off before engaging the Genset.
---------------------------

Our big generator in Fla. has a 'Ship To Shore' switch out of a boat, that defaults to the generator when inactive, but switches over to Grid power when there is Grid power.

I'm not crazy about that arrangment since the Switch draws power at all times when there is grid power to keep it engaged.

It's NEC compliant and works well, I just wonder how much current it's taking to keep the switch active?
--------------------------

Our little river house has a Genset and solar panels, and it has a manual transfer switch built into the system.
Flip the switch and fire up the Genset/welder to work if you need more power than the panels can supply.

Eventually, we'll have a battery bank to supply supplement the solar, but I haven't got that far yet...


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## solaceofwinter

there was an item i saw at loes today. 
it lets you hook up your generator to your fuse box, looks amazingly simple.
it was like 250$


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## George_H_M

Here is something else to think about when you want to use a generator for part time/ emergence use . Use extra heavy duty extension cords and try to keep them as single runs from gen to appliance(s) in use. I suggest either 12/2 or 10/2 cable that way the cables won't heat up if to much current is drawn threw them.


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## JeepHammer

solaceofwinter said:


> there was an item i saw at loes today.
> it lets you hook up your generator to your fuse box, looks amazingly simple.
> it was like 250$


Yup, manual transfer switch isn't too bad to install, they just cost a lot.
I'd like to find a common application where they were used were we could get them for say $50 or so...


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## Tex

Almost any business with a 10-15KVA UPS will have a bypass cabinet. You may be able to get one from a business that is shutting down. I've decommissioned dozens of UPS from grocery stores. Just make sure that the switch is Break Before Make and not Make Before Break.


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## Tex

One of the bosses at my work said he would find me a BBM bypass switch at work. He said there should be some 18kva switches that I can have. If I get extras, I'll let you guys know. It's a manual switch, but it doesn't get any more simple and you can permanantly wire in your generator if you want.


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## oldgeeser

Back feeding is dangerous and could get you a lawsuit, it is unlikely that a 5kw Generator would be able to handle the load required for a typical home .. If you would be happy with 3 or 4 main items and 3 or 4 areas lighted, then will need to have a certified electrician install a certified transfer switch, I had this done last year at a cost of about $500.00 total .. now if you want to get though a short period of time and don't wish to lay out a lota dollars and you would be satisfied with your Furnace, TV, Fridge, Freezer and some drop lights then Generator to Furnace can help you get the connections to your Furnace completed and ready for the next ice storm, you'll find some links here for wattage requirements, grounding, etc. good luck


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## jay061561

rachilders said:


> I've been told that you can plug a portable generator into one of your homes power outlets and it will power the homes other outlets.
> 
> The procedure was this: Run a line from the generator to one of your homes outlets after cutting the external power off at the homes main power box. You can then use the outlets in your home as long as you don't exceed your generators power rating.
> 
> Does anyone know for sure (especially one of you electricians) if this is true?


ye it will work but if u plug in to 110 u will only get 110 to work know if yr generater has 220 u can use the dryer plug and have power to your hold houes if yr generater is big enuf to handal it if nit only use wht u need BUT THE FRIST THING U NEED TO DO BEFOR U DOO ANY OF THIS THINGS U NEED TO SHUT DOWN THE MAIN BRACKER FROM YOUR POWER BOX


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## The_Blob

JeepHammer said:


> It's NEC compliant and works well, I just wonder how much current it's taking to keep the switch active?


it's just a self-holding circuit, it probably doesn't use that much current to keep the coil energized


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## sea_going_dude

Monthly check of your emergency generator.
Most of us will run our generators at least monthly to check them for proper operation. Let me suggest something that will also help. Running the gene will check out the power (motor) but you need to put a load on the generator also. This will give a more realistic test for proper operation. 
For a good load, you can use an electric heater. Check the power (current) rating on the heater and run the highest level that the gene will handle. This will check the gene engine and put a good load on it and also will check the generator itself. It will heat the generator coils and bearings and also dry our any moisture that may be present.
One other idea is that some of these portable generators might tend to hunt or change speed up and down without some kind of load on them. If this happens, you can connect something like that elect heater, set on low. in your house or outside and let it stay in the circuit. This will help the generator stabilize when most of the other loads cut out such as fridge etc. Just be sure the heater (on low) won't overload the generator along with all the other loads in the house. 
Being a ham radio operator, we have used these generators for our anual field day operations and as most xceivers do not pull that much current, some of the generators will tend to hunt, or surge up and down without a constant load. The worst one we had was a 50 kw new gen supplied by telephone company and we just didnt put enough load on it for it to stabalize as it should. With the addition of the heater for constant load the problem was corrected. The surging not only causes the voltage to go up and down but also causes the line frequency to go above and below 60 cycles or 50 whatever your standard is.


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## BillM

*Current Electric codes*



rachilders said:


> I've been told that you can plug a portable generator into one of your homes power outlets and it will power the homes other outlets.
> 
> The procedure was this: Run a line from the generator to one of your homes outlets after cutting the external power off at the homes main power box. You can then use the outlets in your home as long as you don't exceed your generators power rating.
> 
> Does anyone know for sure (especially one of you electricians) if this is true?


Electric Codes require that if a generator is connected to the secondary wireing in your home that a three way switching device is to be used to connect the generator to the house wireing.

The reason for this is that you can inadvertantlly electrocute a lineman with a back feed current from your generator.

If you do not want to undergo this expence, just run an extention cord or cords from your generator or install a dedicated emergency outlet system that is compleatly seperate from your house wireing.

What will work and what you should do are diffrent.

Even if you disconnect your main from the grid and attach by other means to your home wireing, you could get blaimed for a linemans injury or death , even though you were disconnected and someone else was not.

You don't want to windup trying to convince a jury in a law suit that you broke the electric code but you were not at fault !


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## musketjim

For electrical power with a generator my Y2k prep. included having a PROFESSIONAL electrician install a transfer panel so I can completely isolate my house from the power grid. I have a generator capable of running my furnace and my water pump. The electrician installed a plug on the outside of the house and built an extension cord rated to run from gen. to house plug so I can run my gen. outside. Of course a generator is a dinner bell to those who didn't prep. so I'll deal with that issue as it comes up. Good luck.

The whole world sucks, America sucks a lot less and Alaska don't suck at all.


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## dragoon

All you need to do is have a double male plug extension cord does not have to be long , a short one you can plug it into your extension cord directly and the other end into your outside plug, first thing you do is pull your main breaker for your home and pop your 220 volt breakers this will leave your 110 volt breakers, on your panel you have a right and left bank if your outside plug is wired into your left bank , all the 110 volt breakers will be active on this side and it works like a charm a couple of years ago power went on Christmas Day and I had already set my parents house up to run on a reverse feed through the power system and here we were while a lot of other people were in the dark we were enjoying our meal with lights on and gravy made on the butane stove.


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## Tirediron

dragoon said:


> All you need to do is have a double male plug extension cord does not have to be long , a short one you can plug it into your extension cord directly and the other end into your outside plug, first thing you do is pull your main breaker for your home and pop your 220 volt breakers this will leave your 110 volt breakers, on your panel you have a right and left bank if your outside plug is wired into your left bank , all the 110 volt breakers will be active on this side and it works like a charm a couple of years ago power went on Christmas Day and I had already set my parents house up to run on a reverse feed through the power system and here we were while a lot of other people were in the dark we were enjoying our meal with lights on and gravy made on the butane stove.


In a lot of breaker boxes (Any system with tandem 220 breakers)every second breaker is "one side",the other thing to consider is that a back fed breaker won't trip if overloaded, so if your outside plug is 15 amps don't feed it with any more than a 15 amp generator curcuit.


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## partdeux

An add on switch over box is super easy to install, and takes out all the safety concerns. I have no idea why people just don't install one.


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## GaryS

I installed a propane powered 20kw whole house generator with a "smart" transfer switch that monitors the load and cuts off certain circuits if needed. If power fails for more than a few seconds, the generator starts itself, and when power returns, it shuts down. 

We've only had one failure since I installed the unit, but it sure was nice to have that backup. Power was off for only a few hours, so it didn't get a real test. 

However, there are a couple of problems. It's expensive to install and to run, and when the power goes off, your house stands out like a sore thumb. Though I offered to provide power for their critical needs, and a place to stay comfortable, I witnessed some resentment from the neighbors, so I turned off all my lights and sat in the dark.


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## elder

I run my house by back feeding a 220v outlet installed for that purpose. I turn off the main breaker and all breakers that are not needed and add only those within the capacity of the generator. With a 110v generator only the circuits on that bus would be powered, IOW about half of the house circuits. I wouldn't recommend this for long term use, but I also wouldn't use my generator for long term use. I have used it for several day of outage but never when sleeping. I run the generator just enough to Keep the water tank pressurized and the freezer and refrigerator cool but not for electrical heat, lights and TV(except for news).

Breakers trip on heat due to over current and AC doesn't know which way the current is flowing. Even if it did only one breaker is back fed and the generator itself has a breaker so no problem.


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## labotomi

JeepHammer said:


> Our big generator in Fla. has a 'Ship To Shore' switch out of a boat, that defaults to the generator when inactive, but switches over to Grid power when there is Grid power.
> 
> I'm not crazy about that arrangment since the Switch draws power at all times when there is grid power to keep it engaged.
> 
> It's NEC compliant and works well, I just wonder how much current it's taking to keep the switch active?





The_Blob said:


> it's just a self-holding circuit, it probably doesn't use that much current to keep the coil energized


Just like The_Blob said.

2W max and that's being very conservative in the event the unit is very inefficient. Most UV relays use less than 0.5W . Since it's a "normal" seeking automatic bus transfer (it defaults to a specific source), it only requires one relay to monitor that source. Of course it will use more immediately after a transfer to "pre-charge" or "pre-load" the mechanical operators.

If the transfer device also monitors frequency, there will an under frequency relay as well. That type is a little more power hungry. Maybe 5 to 10W depending upon features. Usually only specialized auto transfer units monitor frequency.


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## labotomi

elder said:


> I run my house by back feeding a 220v outlet installed for that purpose. I turn off the main breaker and all breakers that are not needed and add only those within the capacity of the generator. With a 110v generator only the circuits on that bus would be powered, IOW about half of the house circuits. I wouldn't recommend this for long term use, but I also wouldn't use my generator for long term use. I have used it for several day of outage but never when sleeping. I run the generator just enough to Keep the water tank pressurized and the freezer and refrigerator cool but not for electrical heat, lights and TV(except for news).
> 
> Breakers trip on heat due to over current and AC doesn't know which way the current is flowing. Even if it did only one breaker is back fed and the generator itself has a breaker so no problem.


That's not a problem is the plug you are back feeding into is the only one on the circuit.

If someone uses this method to back feed into a 110V receptacle and then plugs appliances into the other receptacles on that circuit, the power isn't going through the (house) breaker panel so those breakers aren't seeing the full current.

Most generators do have a breaker on the output, but that breaker may be rated higher than the wiring on a typical wall outlet circuit.

Someone who doesn't understand may combine those two situations and overload the wiring inside the walls of their home.

I would never tell anyone that it's ok to back feed into their house. If they understood electricity enough to do this, they probably wouldn't need to ask if it was ok.


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## partdeux

I had an electrical inspector come by yesterday and was looking for an acceptable means of adding an outdoor hookup, and we discussed the transfer panel. He said why bother, just wire it directly and make sure you turn off the main... wonder if I can get that in writing?


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## Tweto

I've been reading this thread on and off so I don't know everything said. 

I've have used an emergency generator for a long time. When using the emergency generator the house needs to be completely isolated from all outside power. The best way to do this is to pull the power meter on the outside of the house (I have not heard anybody write about this) A transfer switch is the only other way to do this. I would not open the circuit breaker box and remove circuit breakers. If the power came back on you could be electrocuted.

When I say pull the power meter, I mean to break the power company seal and then pull it out like a plug.


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## Norse

Tweto said:


> When I say pull the power meter, I mean to break the power company seal and then pull it out like a plug.


Correct, the terminology is meter socket.

You can just back feed your panel using a breaker with amperage slightly larger than the output of your generator. Instead of merely just switching off your main, just pull your meter socket. Or pull your main breaker.

For example, I just have a line to a outbuilding with a 60 amp leg. In the shed there is a female 220 plug wired into it with a separate breaker.
I just pull my main breaker in the home, isolating the power supply coming from the grid, and trip the breaker on that the generator is then plugged into.

It would then be impossible for a lineman to come in contact with current. Especially if you put a lock back on your meter opening.

*But really, don't mess with large current unless you are familiar with electricity.*

This of course is the poor man's hookup. They do sell generator disconnects at most hardware stores, and that would be the way to go if you are not familiar with electricity.

I would also make sure you attach a isolated ground on your generator.


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## Tweto

Norse said:


> Correct, the terminology is meter socket.


Norse; Thanks for correction.


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## turkeydog

*yes, but....*



rachilders said:


> I've been told that you can plug a portable generator into one of your homes power outlets and it will power the homes other outlets.
> 
> The procedure was this: Run a line from the generator to one of your homes outlets after cutting the external power off at the homes main power box. You can then use the outlets in your home as long as you don't exceed your generators power rating.
> 
> Does anyone know for sure (especially one of you electricians) if this is true?


Yes you can do it, but it's not a good idea. You will need to shut off all breakers/fuses you don't plan on using. and only do it in a pinch for emergency and for very short period of time. Best be it invest the money to have an inlet 220/110 hardwired in to your house. If you can afford the type of generator to run your house, you can afford the proper switch and power inlet. generators with just plug ins are for worksites and running tools, not for an entire house. It will overheat the generator and the wiring in your house if you try to draw more wattage than the gen. can deliver. I use a 8500 watt gen but I turn off all 220 appliances expect well pump. had to use it this morning when thunderstorms and wind blew powergrid at 5:30am. I was on time for work and had a hot shower. Just have to remind wife to not use her hair dryer witht he TV, Satellite and lights on!!! Those things us a lot of wattage all at once.


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## turkeydog

*NOPE!*



partdeux said:


> I had an electrical inspector come by yesterday and was looking for an acceptable means of adding an outdoor hookup, and we discussed the transfer panel. He said why bother, just wire it directly and make sure you turn off the main... wonder if I can get that in writing?


I wouldn't use him again, because he's full of it. without a transfer switch that does not permit generator and line being hooked up at same time, you WILL electricute a lineman. No doubt. my transfer switch cuts the mainline off physically before you can turn on the generator line. and if you turn the main switch back on, it physically turns off the generator swithc at the same time. Anything less with get someone killed, you prosecuted and sued.


----------



## turkeydog

During ice storm in the Charlotte area about 7 years ago, I was the only house on my block that had lights and hot food for three days. Luckily I was in a good neighborhood where everyone trusted the power to come back on shortly, and no one was desparate. for weeks the neighbors talked about how my house was the only one in the area with lights. we even had tv due to satellite reciever. since then have moved back to the country and have bigger generator, beef in the field and gardens (canned goods!)

I keep hanging plant hooks in my ceilings to hang coleman laterns from. good to have when you don't need to run the gene.


----------



## partdeux

turkeydog said:


> I wouldn't use him again, because he's full of it. without a transfer switch that does not permit generator and line being hooked up at same time, you WILL electricute a lineman. No doubt. my transfer switch cuts the mainline off physically before you can turn on the generator line. and if you turn the main switch back on, it physically turns off the generator swithc at the same time. Anything less with get someone killed, you prosecuted and sued.


He's the city electrical inspector. Require city inspection on my house purchase  I was not impressed by what he said either. Can it be done safely, absolutely. Should it be done, and should an inspector recommend it... probably not!


----------



## elder

labotomi said:


> That's not a problem is the plug you are back feeding into is the only one on the circuit.
> 
> If someone uses this method to back feed into a 110V receptacle and then plugs appliances into the other receptacles on that circuit, the power isn't going through the (house) breaker panel so those breakers aren't seeing the full current.
> 
> Most generators do have a breaker on the output, but that breaker may be rated higher than the wiring on a typical wall outlet circuit.
> 
> Someone who doesn't understand may combine those two situations and overload the wiring inside the walls of their home.
> 
> I would never tell anyone that it's ok to back feed into their house. If they understood electricity enough to do this, they probably wouldn't need to ask if it was ok.


Very good point. I am an electrical engineer so I have no problem with the concept, however one mistake could be serious. It is best for most people to avoid the problem.


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## wolfer

Question. I have a motorhome with a 6,000 watt genset. It has a built in 50 amp transfer switch. Can I use that transfer switch when running the genset and if so how would I wire it to the house. Right now I am using an outside 50 amp box hooked to my main breaker in the house 200 amp breaker box. How easy would it be to send genset power to the house and how would I wire it?


----------



## partdeux

the safest thing to do is to get a reliance transfer panel from Home Depot. 6,000 watt generator is likely only 20amp, but the kits are 30 amp, so you're ok there.

The easiest and cheapest thing to do it to wire it directly to your panel, BUT you and whoever is involved with the generator absolutely has to know to kill the main power before turning on the generator. Otherwise you could possible kill a lineman, or worse kill all your electronic toys in the house and blow the generator.

Wire it with the appropriate sized wire. 12g for 20 amp, 10g (i think) for 30 amp, and 6g (?) for 50 amp.


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## ecmillsjr

LOL. I love it when people act as if they have infallible knowledge, and proudly proclaim it can't be done. They then proceed to laugh at the ones who say it can be. I've connected a generator through my dryer outlet for years using the method described in Popular Mechanics. It works like a charm, and it helps intelligent folks save tons of money.


----------



## ReadyMom

Question please: If the option to get a standby generator is made, since that is generator to house hookup, is there any way at all to EMP proof an outside standby generator? I know the 'brains' of the generator are a computer component. Is there a way to 'farady' that component, inside the housing of the generator? Or is the best option to purchase a second computer component, if you get one of these standby units installed? 

Thanks! -k


----------



## LincTex

ReadyMom said:


> Is there any way at all to EMP proof an outside standby generator?


Sure. Enclose the entire unit in an enclosure built from sheetmetal that serves two purposes: protects the generator from weather and critters, and is also a Faraday cage. It is not too difficult to do.

You will need to have panels that provide openings for cooling air when it is needed, though. Fine mesh screen that is properly grounded will do double duty (airflow) as well as protection from EMP.

Isolate the wiring so it is not connected to the house. Any connected wiring to the house would probably ruin your generator in an EMP event.


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## oldasrocks

ecmillsjr said:


> LOL. I love it when people act as if they have infallible knowledge, and proudly proclaim it can't be done. They then proceed to laugh at the ones who say it can be. I've connected a generator through my dryer outlet for years using the method described in Popular Mechanics. It works like a charm, and it helps intelligent folks save tons of money.


I will disagree. If you get caught doing that here you will be disconnected from the electric company for life. Yes it will work but also backfeeds through the grid and may electrocute a worker. You have to install a double throw factory made disconnect to be safe for everyone involved.

Don't you just have to love people who are so arrogant that they don't think things through and seemingly don't care about others?


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## LincTex

If you do not plan to run any heavy 240 volt loads (dryer, A/C, range...etc) and need to run a large 120 volt load (air compressor, furnace fan, well pump) you can rewire your smaller generator to handle those loads easily:

http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f16/your-6000-watt-gen-only-puts-out-3000-watts-11918/


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## elder

ecmillsjr said:


> LOL. I love it when people act as if they have infallible knowledge, and proudly proclaim it can't be done. They then proceed to laugh at the ones who say it can be. I've connected a generator through my dryer outlet for years using the method described in Popular Mechanics. It works like a charm, and it helps intelligent folks save tons of money.


Similar to my approach but I added a 240 outlet (that can also be used with a welder) at the front of my garage. However, I do agree that this method is not for everyone. Here's a note I picked up elsewhere:


> Several people indicated that they have installed a 30 amp clothes dryer outlet (or used an existing one) and connected the generator output to that, without using a transfer switch, feeding power directly to the house panel. This method is not legal in most places because of the possibility of "back feeding" power to the power line. This has the potential to injure power company personnel working on "dead" lines.
> 
> These individuals have a procedure that they follow to ensure that "back feeding" will not happen. To begin, they PLACE THE MAIN PANEL BREAKER IN THE OFF POSITION.
> 
> After the main breaker is off, turn off all circuits in the house panel. Then, and only then, plug the generator into the dryer outlet. Next, power up the generator. Once the generator has settled selectively turn on the breakers for the desired circuits.
> 
> A dryer outlet is rated at 30 amps/230VAC and can be used with generators up to 6500 watts. Remember, the prongs on the dryer cable are exposed. Plug it in before powering on the generator.
> 
> When power is restored the reverse procedure should be obvious. Shut off the generator and then remove the plug from the dryer outlet. Then return the main panel breaker to its ON position.
> 
> The generator should never be plugged in while there is utility power present. If you want to pit your generator against those of the power company, I can guarantee one thing - you'll lose!


----------



## ReadyMom

LincTex said:


> Sure. Enclose the entire unit in an enclosure built from sheetmetal that serves two purposes: protects the generator from weather and critters, and is also a Faraday cage. It is not too difficult to do.
> 
> You will need to have panels that provide openings for cooling air when it is needed, though. Fine mesh screen that is properly grounded will do double duty (airflow) as well as protection from EMP.
> 
> Isolate the wiring so it is not connected to the house. Any connected wiring to the house would probably ruin your generator in an EMP event.


Thank you! I have talked to a few people that are considering this, and this question comes up time and again. -k


----------



## TopTop

LincTex said:


> Sure. Enclose the entire unit in an enclosure built from sheetmetal that serves two purposes: protects the generator from weather and critters, and is also a Faraday cage. It is not too difficult to do.
> 
> You will need to have panels that provide openings for cooling air when it is needed, though. Fine mesh screen that is properly grounded will do double duty (airflow) as well as protection from EMP.
> 
> Isolate the wiring so it is not connected to the house. Any connected wiring to the house would probably ruin your generator in an EMP event.


A question on disconnecting from the house. Would flipping a breaker be sufficient? I suspect not, so how much isolation is needed?

I am thinking of putting in a new 200 amp load center with a 60 amp generator interlock & load meters for the genny input. Outside will be a genny inlet box where I can plug in a portable genny. The interlock is basically the same as backfeeding through a dryer outlet except it is legal & safe. You must turn off one input and slide the lock before you can energize from the other. 
So my question is MUST I unplug the genny or is it merely advisable & the breaker disconnect would be sufficient.

BTW, my genny already has the 120/240 switch on the twist lock plug. I always use 240 volts but wondered if it would produce full power on one leg when 120 is selected. It also has some 120 volt 20 amp convenience outlets on the panel. I assume they are split between both sides but never actually checked with my DMM.


----------



## LincTex

TopTop said:


> I was wondering if it would produce full power on one leg when 120 is selected. It also has some 120 volt 20 amp convenience outlets on the panel. I assume they are split between both sides but never actually checked with my DMM.


 Do you have a wiring diagram?


----------



## TopTop

No it's a genny I bought before the last big scare about the grid, y2k. I really needed something for a long time, but that gave me the excuse to spend the money after someone stole my older welder/generator. It came with a great big operators manual that said, in 63 languages, Put in gas, oil, battery, pull choke, push start. I must have pushed that sucker 20 miles, it never fired a lick.


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## LincTex

You will have to pull the panel the outlets are mounted in and trace the wires.


----------



## PFCHAWK

Since we are on the topic of generators, any body have any experience with a " GEK Gasifier" or gasification generators


----------



## LincTex

PFCHAWK said:


> Since we are on the topic of generators, any body have any experience with a " GEK Gasifier" or gasification generators


That is a different subject.
It would be best to start a new thread.

A few of us here have dabbled with woodgas.


----------



## PFCHAWK

I will do that can you start a new thread on your phone


----------



## TopTop

PFCHAWK said:


> Since we are on the topic of generators, any body have any experience with a " GEK Gasifier" or gasification generators


Go here. There is already a small thread on syngas.

http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f16/gasifier-11590/


----------



## ram91648

*Generators and EMP*

Research, Research, Research, Research.... That's how you get the facts. Not on an open forum like this one. I too was worried about EMP. Then I did the research. I have a Generac 10000XL. It has "NO" computer circuits in it. Also, you'll find that "most" generators, including mine, are inherently immune to EMP. Now, if your generator has some sort of computer circuit in it, it is probably housed in a metal enclosure. If your generator is properly grounded, the computer housing is probably chassis grounded to the generator frame and "voila" EMP protected. Case closed............



LincTex said:


> Sure. Enclose the entire unit in an enclosure built from sheetmetal that serves two purposes: protects the generator from weather and critters, and is also a Faraday cage. It is not too difficult to do.
> 
> You will need to have panels that provide openings for cooling air when it is needed, though. Fine mesh screen that is properly grounded will do double duty (airflow) as well as protection from EMP.
> 
> Isolate the wiring so it is not connected to the house. Any connected wiring to the house would probably ruin your generator in an EMP event.


----------



## retrieverman

I know this is an old thread, and I have only skimmed through the replies and didn't see anything about what I am about to mention.

There is a "device" called a Generlink that plugs in to your house behind the meter, and when you hook your generator up, it allows you to run your house through your breaker box and prevents back feeding.

http://www.generlink.com/about_generlink.cfm

My Dad has been using one for a few years, and after he upgraded his system, he gave his Generlink to me. I had to use it for the first time a few weeks ago, and it worked great.

They are kind of expensive, but after having an electician wire my generator direct during the last hurricane, I believe they are worth every penny.


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## ram91648

Here is what I did and it works perfectly every time. I wired my generator (a Generac 10000XL) directly to the breaker panel back fed through a double 50 amp breaker on number 2 wire. Power goes out, turn off the main breaker, fire up the generator, turn on the double 50 amp breaker and "VOILA" power and it costs a lot less than hiring an over priced electrician to install equipment that costs more than it's worth. Oh, and by the way, a good friend of mine told me about this and he's a master electrician. Even my wife can handle it and she hates anything technical. As I said in another post.....Research, Research, Research................ Save many bucks with a little effort.

QUOTE=retrieverman;144901]I know this is an old thread, and I have only skimmed through the replies and didn't see anything about what I am about to mention.

There is a "device" called a Generlink that plugs in to your house behind the meter, and when you hook your generator up, it allows you to run your house through your breaker box and prevents back feeding.

http://www.generlink.com/about_generlink.cfm

My Dad has been using one for a few years, and after he upgraded his system, he gave his Generlink to me. I had to use it for the first time a few weeks ago, and it worked great.

They are kind of expensive, but after having an electician wire my generator direct during the last hurricane, I believe they are worth every penny.[/QUOTE]


----------



## oldasrocks

You guys might save a buck or two wiring this yourselves but remember a backfeed can KILL a lineworker. Install a positive manual disconnect. Throwing a breaker is not enough security. They cost just over $100 and ask yourselves is $100 saving worth killing someone who is out there trying to get the juice back on?


----------



## LincTex

ram91648 said:


> I have a Generac 10000XL. It has "NO" computer circuits in it. Also, you'll find that "most" generators, including mine, are inherently immune to EMP. Now, if your generator has some sort of computer circuit in it,....and "voila" EMP protected. Case closed............


Wrong. You may have done your research, but you did it in the wrong places and got the wrong answers. Not your bad... just bad sources.

First, your Generac uses electronic ignition ("solid state"). When the electronic ignition module gets hit, your engine will not start or run. Buy a spare electronic ignition module/unit and or a spare ignition coil. I know for a FACT these items are not shielded (protected) in your Generac.

Second, you get your new module/coil installed, and it runs.... but doesn't produce any electricity. Now what? Your 3600 RPM generator is "brushless" and "self exciting". The reason it is not producing any electricity is there are two small capacitors tied to the stator windings, and two diodes that are part of the rotating assembly (rectifier)... these are the reason your "brushless" generator can start producing electricity from residual filed magnetism... if the capacitors and diodes die... you won't make any juice, even if you get it running.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternator
*Brushless alternators*
"A brushless alternator is composed of two alternators built end-to-end on one shaft. Smaller brushless alternators may look like one unit but the two parts are readily identifiable on the large versions. The larger of the two sections is the main alternator and the smaller one is the exciter. The exciter has stationary field coils and a rotating armature (power coils). The main alternator uses the opposite configuration with a rotating field and stationary armature. A bridge rectifier, called the rotating rectifier assembly, is mounted on a plate attached to the rotor. Neither brushes nor slip rings are used, which reduces the number of wearing parts. The main alternator has a rotating field as described above and a stationary armature (power generation windings).
Varying the amount of current through the stationary exciter field coils varies the 3-phase output from the exciter. This output is rectified by a rotating rectifier assembly, mounted on the rotor, and the resultant DC supplies the rotating field of the main alternator and hence alternator output. The result of all this is that a small DC exciter current indirectly controls the output of the main alternator."


----------



## ram91648

Like I said before..... Research, Research, Research. I don't know about your load center, but my main breaker disconnects both sides of the line power and the ground goes to earth so there is no way that someone might be injured or killed by my running a generator. The thing that is needed here is the intelligence to turn "off" the main and leave it off when using your generator. All basic electrical theory any reasonably intelligent person would know. I'm not trying to be facetious, but there's no need to make it all such a mysterious mind boggling science. It's the fact that so many people don't realize how simple and logical many things are that allows plumbers and electricians to charge $75 to pull into your driveway and it goes up from there. Just do the research......... And by the way...... I'm "older' than rocks....



oldasrocks said:


> You guys might save a buck or two wiring this yourselves but remember a backfeed can KILL a lineworker. Install a positive manual disconnect. Throwing a breaker is not enough security. They cost just over $100 and ask yourselves is $100 saving worth killing someone who is out there trying to get the juice back on?


----------



## ram91648

Last I knew a solid state circuit was not computerized. Before I bought the Generac I did the "research" and was assured by Generac engineers that all necessary components are inside metal housings of the engine and generator and as such, as long as the generator frame is earth grounded, it's protected. I plan to buy a spare ignition coil and diodes and caps are not susceptible to EMP effect at least that's what I'm told. If this information is wrong, please tell me where I can go to get verification. Of course I guess I could conquer all this by building a Faraday housing couldn't I? This is an excerpt from a very long report on EMP and Faraday cages etc.
Some electrical equipment is innately EMP-resistant. This includes large electric motors, vacuum tube equipment, electrical generators, transformers, relays, and the like. Thanks and God bless.



LincTex said:


> Wrong. You may have done your research, but you did it in the wrong places and got the wrong answers. Not your bad... just bad sources.
> 
> First, your Generac uses electronic ignition ("solid state"). When the electronic ignition module gets hit, your engine will not start or run. Buy a spare electronic ignition module/unit and or a spare ignition coil. I know for a FACT these items are not shielded (protected) in your Generac.
> 
> Second, you get your new module/coil installed, and it runs.... but doesn't produce any electricity. Now what? Your 3600 RPM generator is "brushless" and "self exciting". The reason it is not producing any electricity is there are two small capacitors tied to the stator windings, and two diodes that are part of the rotating assembly (rectifier)... these are the reason your "brushless" generator can start producing electricity from residual filed magnetism... if the capacitors and diodes die... you won't make any juice, even if you get it running.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternator
> *Brushless alternators*
> "A brushless alternator is composed of two alternators built end-to-end on one shaft. Smaller brushless alternators may look like one unit but the two parts are readily identifiable on the large versions. The larger of the two sections is the main alternator and the smaller one is the exciter. The exciter has stationary field coils and a rotating armature (power coils). The main alternator uses the opposite configuration with a rotating field and stationary armature. A bridge rectifier, called the rotating rectifier assembly, is mounted on a plate attached to the rotor. Neither brushes nor slip rings are used, which reduces the number of wearing parts. The main alternator has a rotating field as described above and a stationary armature (power generation windings).
> Varying the amount of current through the stationary exciter field coils varies the 3-phase output from the exciter. This output is rectified by a rotating rectifier assembly, mounted on the rotor, and the resultant DC supplies the rotating field of the main alternator and hence alternator output. The result of all this is that a small DC exciter current indirectly controls the output of the main alternator."


----------



## sea_going_dude

Good description "hammer". we, (ham radio operators) have also fed a 240 generator into the electric stove or dryer outlet WITH THE MAIN TURNED OFF AND LOCKED OUT.
Basically the same idea you have because you are feeding back through the double breaker for the stove/dryer. JUST BE SURE THE MAIN IS OFF AND LOCKED OUT.
This works for a temp installation where you don't have the extra double breaker to work with.

AS HE SAID BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL WITH THIS SET-UP AS IT DOES POSE A POSSIBLE DANGER IF NOT FOLLOWED EXACTLY.

PS some A-hole stole my generator so I don't have that problem anymore. Hope he blows his S--- away too :gaah:



JeepHammer said:


> Now, if you are really cheap ba$tard and you want to wire you home for a temporary generator in an emergency situation,
> 
> This only works with small, 'Portable' Gensets, and this IS NOT the 'Proper' way to do things, and it's NOT TO CODE!
> ----------------------------
> 
> *TURN OFF THE MAIN BREAKER AT THE 'TOP' OF THE PANEL!*
> 
> Get yourself a 30 amp side-by-side breaker intended for a 220 volt appliance, like a water heater, ect.
> And leave it OPEN (nothing connected to it) in the breaker box.
> LEAVE THE BREAKER TURNED 'OFF'!
> ---------------------------
> 
> BUY AND STORE WIRE LONG ENOUGH TO REACH FROM THE GENERATOR TO THE FUSE PANEL,
> AND BUY A 220 VOLT PLUG (Male) THAT FITS YOUR GENERATOR.
> Virtually all the generators larger than the suit case size ones have a 220 volt outlet, make sure your plug fits that outlet.
> 
> USE AT LEAST 10/3 GAUGE WIRE!
> That means 10 Gauge conductors, 3 insulated Conductors, and a bare earth ground wire.
> Flexible wire is MANDATORY if you are going to use the generator for longer than a few days,
> Solid wire is OK for a day or two, but the generator vibration will eventually stiffen and break the wire conductors.
> 
> Install the plug on the wire.
> Wiring options will be...
> 
> Black, Red, White, Bare.
> Black & Red are conductors, or 'Hot' legs and connect to the two breakers you installed in the box.
> White is 'Neutral' and will need to be connected to the bar in the breaker box where the other 'White' wires are.
> Bare will be EARTH GROUND, and must be connected to an EARTH GROUND ROD.
> 
> Black, White, Green, Bare.
> Black & White are conductors, or hot legs and connect to the two breakers you installed in the box.
> Green would be the 'Neutral' and gets connected to the same place in the box as the 'White' wires from other circuits,
> Bare would be the Earth Ground.
> 
> When you have turned 'OFF' the main breaker,
> Then, and ONLY THEN, do you start the generator,
> And then you can turn the double breaker you installed in the box on for power to your panel.
> 
> If you EVER turn the main breaker on with the generator attached to the system, you stand a very real chance of electrocuting line workers trying to fix the power,
> AND,
> As a double bonus, you stand a pretty good chance of burning your house down or burning the generator up right where it sits!
> 
> BOTH MUST BE OFF BEFORE THE OTHER IS TURNED ON!
> AND BOTH CAN NEVER BE ON AT THE SAME TIME!
> 
> I don't recommend this, it's dangerous, not up to code and I'm NOT trying to sell it as a home game!
> 
> If you don't fully understand how the breakers and electrical system works, DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS!


----------



## labotomi

ram91648 said:


> Last I knew a solid state circuit was not computerized. Before I bought the Generac I did the "research" and was assured by Generac engineers that all necessary components are inside metal housings of the engine and generator and as such, as long as the generator frame is earth grounded, it's protected. I plan to buy a spare ignition coil and diodes and caps are not susceptible to EMP effect at least that's what I'm told. If this information is wrong, please tell me where I can go to get verification. Of course I guess I could conquer all this by building a Faraday housing couldn't I? This is an excerpt from a very long report on EMP and Faraday cages etc.
> Some electrical equipment is innately EMP-resistant. This includes large electric motors, vacuum tube equipment, electrical generators, transformers, relays, and the like. Thanks and God bless.


Computers are susceptible because they utilize solid state components not the other way around. All solid state components are able to be damaged by voltage spikes. A diode is the simplest form of a semiconductor, but they are still susceptible to voltage spikes.

The engineers at generac don't sound too knowledgeable on an EMP because the metal frame of the generator is not comparable to a faraday cage.

Yes, the statement about some electrical equipment being resistant is true, but many are controlled by modern components that are not EMP resistant. Think of the voltage regulators on a modern generator. Most are a mixture of transistors, diodes including zeners, op-amps in various configurations. These are not remotely robust when talking about an EMP. There are electromechanical voltage regulators that do use robust components. I'm not sure if any are available, but it wouldn't be difficult to build a crude one if necessary.

Additionally, while the equipment mentioned is robust in it's ability to withstand an EMP on it's own, if it's attached to a distribution system, the voltage generated along that system could be transferred to the components and thus causing damage (eg. a motor connected to the house wiring which is connected to long runs of distribution cable all the way back to the generating station.

On a positive note, if you do have spare diodes and relays that aren't connected to anything, most likely they will withstand an EMP and can be used to replace that which is damaged. Caps should be ok if not connected, same with relays (coil type, not solid state relays)

How many systems use vacuum tubes nowadays? I think there only around for nostalgia as they're very inefficient compared to available solid state components.

Unfortunately, there's a lot of myths and half truths posted about the effects of an EMP. Many think it's a solitary event when in fact there are 3 distinct phases each having it's own characteristics and concerns. What protects from one phase won't work for the other two, so there are many things to be taken into consideration. Anyone who wanted to be truly protected would have to have faraday cages, surge protectors (not the kind you find in stores) and keep their equipment and homes disconnected from the power grid. I don't know anyone who has a faraday cage large enough to put their vehicles in and virtually everyone keeps their homes connected to the grid.

Most of what's posted from reputable sources contains terminology, equations and scenarios so in depths that it's virtually useless to the common person. Having an understanding about gamma bursts, cascading electrons along with engineering knowledge about semiconductors is not a common combination

I didn't intend to post this much, but kinda started rambling once I began.


----------



## labotomi

oldasrocks said:


> You guys might save a buck or two wiring this yourselves but remember a backfeed can KILL a lineworker. Install a positive manual disconnect. Throwing a breaker is not enough security. They cost just over $100 and ask yourselves is $100 saving worth killing someone who is out there trying to get the juice back on?


I've wondered about this. If you connected your generator to your home wiring and left the main incoming breaker closed, you'd be trying to feed everyone on that distribution system. I wouldn't want to do a theory to practice to find out, but I think the generator would overload itself immediately.

I'm still not going to recommend anyone back feed their home via a suicide (male to male) plug. If you have to ask if it's ok, you don't have enough knowledge to risk the damage to your home or yourself.

Knowing a little is enough to get someone hurt. If you have sufficient knowledge due to training or career field, you wouldn't be asking in the first place.

Getting an explanation over the internet is a good way to acquire enough knowledge to be dangerous, but not enough to cover all the based that need to be covered. There's a lot more to take into consideration than just whether your Main breaker is open or not.

I have the educational background and about 20 years of working with various types of distribution systems. When my power was out last year for over 2 weeks, I found other ways to power the necessary appliances rather than attempt something being considered in this thread.

If you ever think it's ok to try something that might be a little dangerous, ask yourself "would I let my child do this". If the answer is "no"... maybe you shouldn't be doing it either.


----------



## elder

I first saw the male to male plug used at a NASA facility, but one must exercise caution. I would only do it myself, not my wife or even a friend, just me.


----------



## LincTex

Both of your posts are excellent. :congrat: :2thumb:

You sure said a mouthful here:


labotomi said:


> Getting an explanation over the internet is a good way to acquire enough knowledge to be dangerous, but not enough to cover all the bases that need to be covered.


----------



## ram91648

Okay... So you're a lot smarter than I am. Now that you have taken on the guise of the educated one... what do I need to do to protect my generator(s) from EMP? I will assume, by your responses, that all I have been told is wrong. What should I do to protect them from EMP? I'm being sarcastic because I don't know who I should believe. I'm just a dumb ass idiot at the mercy of the educated. "HOW DO I PROTECT MY GENERATORS FROM EMP"?).............. I submit to you.........



labotomi said:


> Computers are susceptible because they utilize solid state components not the other way around. All solid state components are able to be damaged by voltage spikes. A diode is the simplest form of a semiconductor, but they are still susceptible to voltage spikes.
> 
> The engineers at generac don't sound too knowledgeable on an EMP because the metal frame of the generator is not comparable to a faraday cage.
> 
> Yes, the statement about some electrical equipment being resistant is true, but many are controlled by modern components that are not EMP resistant. Think of the voltage regulators on a modern generator. Most are a mixture of transistors, diodes including zeners, op-amps in various configurations. These are not remotely robust when talking about an EMP. There are electromechanical voltage regulators that do use robust components. I'm not sure if any are available, but it wouldn't be difficult to build a crude one if necessary.
> 
> Additionally, while the equipment mentioned is robust in it's ability to withstand an EMP on it's own, if it's attached to a distribution system, the voltage generated along that system could be transferred to the components and thus causing damage (eg. a motor connected to the house wiring which is connected to long runs of distribution cable all the way back to the generating station.
> 
> On a positive note, if you do have spare diodes and relays that aren't connected to anything, most likely they will withstand an EMP and can be used to replace that which is damaged. Caps should be ok if not connected, same with relays (coil type, not solid state relays)
> 
> How many systems use vacuum tubes nowadays? I think there only around for nostalgia as they're very inefficient compared to available solid state components.
> 
> Unfortunately, there's a lot of myths and half truths posted about the effects of an EMP. Many think it's a solitary event when in fact there are 3 distinct phases each having it's own characteristics and concerns. What protects from one phase won't work for the other two, so there are many things to be taken into consideration. Anyone who wanted to be truly protected would have to have faraday cages, surge protectors (not the kind you find in stores) and keep their equipment and homes disconnected from the power grid. I don't know anyone who has a faraday cage large enough to put their vehicles in and virtually everyone keeps their homes connected to the grid.
> 
> Most of what's posted from reputable sources contains terminology, equations and scenarios so in depths that it's virtually useless to the common person. Having an understanding about gamma bursts, cascading electrons along with engineering knowledge about semiconductors is not a common combination
> 
> I didn't intend to post this much, but kinda started rambling once I began.


----------



## LincTex

ram91648 said:


> I don't know who I should believe. "HOW DO I PROTECT MY GENERATORS FROM EMP"?


My old cast-iron-and-copper CCK Onan is about as heavy and as durable as they get... but it is still housed inside a sheetmetal box. I have openings for cooling air that are available when certain panels are removed; the openings have a stainless or aluminum screen mesh that is grounded to the enclosure, and the enclosure has it's own ground rod 10' down, in soil that generally stays moist due to washer machine discharge.

My old Onan is too heavy to move, so it sits on its own slab. Your Generac is designed to be wheeled around. I would build a sheetmetal box in a corner of a building to store it in, and then ground the box with its own grounding rod. If you know someone that does heating/AC ductwork for a living, they could probably make something fairly quickly, easily and inexpensively. Or you could do it yuourself, too.


----------



## elder

If the nation experiences an EMP we will soon be out of fuel unless we switch to wood gasification.


----------



## LincTex

elder said:


> If the nation experiences an EMP we will soon be out of fuel unless we switch to wood gasification.


Actually, time and labor considered, solar panels would make cheaper and easier electricity. Wood gas has lots and lots of issues.


----------



## ram91648

As I said in an earlier post, my Generac is sitting on it's own slab and wired in to the breaker panel through a back feed double pole 50 amp breaker so it isn't on wheels. I don't understand....... Why, if all the diodes and caps etc., are housed in metal and that metal is properly earth grounded, then why doesn't that constitute a Faraday box? It's all too confusing, not to mention the fact that I can't find any verification that anything I've been told is the only "factual" information.



LincTex said:


> My old Onan is too heavy to move, so it sits on its own slab. Your Generac is designed to be wheeled around. I would build a sheetmetal box in a corner of a building to store it in, and then ground the box with its own grounding rod. If you know someone that does heating/AC ductwork for a living, they could probably make something fairly quickly, easily and inexpensively. Or you could do it yuourself, too.


----------



## LincTex

ram91648 said:


> A I don't understand....... Why, if all the diodes and caps etc., are housed in metal and that metal is properly earth grounded, then why doesn't that constitute a Faraday box?


Well, then perhaps I am mistaken, and I do apologize. 
I had forgotten you had a slab mounted unit.You might be protected enough, but you would need to do a very close examination of your enclosure to look for vulnerabilities.

However, the newer Generac generators have a propensity to fry their internal electronic controls (even when no EMP exists). Regardless of what the "Tech" told you, they are in there.

In my own humble opinion (for what it is worth, take it or leave it) I would not consider owning anything made by Generac after about 1982 or '83... some where around there. The Generacs are typically considered a lot farther down the quality scale than an Onan or Kohler.

Quote: "Hate to say it, but being a Generac tech for almost 20 years and have worked on the green beasties (Onan) just as long for a living, an investment in a Generac is in my opinion not recommended. I have only seen one unit that has lasted 1,200 hours before major failure. The rest were far less than 500 hours."


----------



## ram91648

See....... now this is where I get very concerned. Now, please don't think I'm being a wise guy, but isn't all this kinda like, I like Fords and you like Chevys? Or I'm into Panasonic and you prefer Pioneer? I didn't buy Generac blindly. It was on the advice of someone like the one you quoted in that he too had worked on many brands of generators for over 25 years and in his opinion Generac is one of the most dependable. Excellent for emergency home use both short and long term. Okay. so what is someone like me (without all the extensive experience and knowledge) supposed to do? When I get so many conflicting stories how am I to make an intelligent decision? I am at the mercy of others. I have had my Generac for 14 years and it hasn't missed a beat. Change the oil, test it regularly, keep good fuel in it, change the plugs and general preventative maintenance. Now I'm told by a 20 year tech that at any moment it will dissolve into a puddle of goo. I am one very confused old man........ Do I really want to survive when the SHTF?



LincTex said:


> Well, then perhaps I am mistaken, and I do apologize.
> I had forgotten you had a slab mounted unit.You might be protected enough, but you would need to do a very close examination of your enclosure to look for vulnerabilities.
> 
> However, the newer Generac generators have a propensity to fry their internal electronic controls (even when no EMP exists). Regardless of what the "Tech" told you, they are in there.
> 
> In my own humble opinion (for what it is worth, take it or leave it) I would not consider owning anything made by Generac after about 1982 or '83... some where around there. The Generacs are typically considered a lot farther down the quality scale than an Onan or Kohler.
> 
> Quote: "Hate to say it, but being a Generac tech for almost 20 years and have worked on the green beasties (Onan) just as long for a living, an investment in a Generac is in my opinion not recommended. I have only seen one unit that has lasted 1,200 hours before major failure. The rest were far less than 500 hours."


----------



## LincTex

ram91648 said:


> I have had my Generac for 14 years and it hasn't missed a beat. Change the oil, test it regularly, keep good fuel in it, change the plugs and general preventative maintenance.


It sounds like you got one of the last good ones, that were still good quality. 
Their new (current day) products are complete garbage. Use synthetic oil in it, and always make sure the cooling airflow is never obstructed.

Gasoline has changed a LOT in 14 years as well. Use a good quality gas stabilizer like Pri-G, blue Sta-Bil, or Star-Tron marine fuel stabilizer. Sea Foam works great for emergency fuel system purges, like if you get a bad load of gas by accident.


----------



## partdeux

LincTex said:


> It sounds like you got one of the last good ones, that were still good quality.
> Their new (current day) products are complete garbage. Use synthetic oil in it, and always make sure the cooling airflow is never obstructed.
> 
> Gasoline has changed a LOT in 14 years as well. Use a good quality gas stabilizer like Pri-G, blue Sta-Bil, or Star-Tron marine fuel stabilizer. Sea Foam works great for emergency fuel system purges, like if you get a bad load of gas by accident.


Synthetic oil has an interesting property that makes it less then desirable for engines in long term storage. The oil will have a tendency to flow off the surfaces leaving the metal unprotected. While running, it prevents wear, but while not running, open for rusting. I started using a custom oil blender, http://www.bndautomotive.com/page/page/901818.htm for my generator oil.

If you can find it, non alcohol fuel is much better for the systems then what you get at the corner gas station... but it's hard to find.


----------



## LincTex

partdeux said:


> Synthetic oil will have a tendency to flow off the surfaces leaving the metal unprotected


REALLY? I never heard that before. OK, well I will just use some Lucas oil stabilizer in regular oil, then. It won't run off... ever.



partdeux said:


> If you can find it, non alcohol fuel is much better for the systems then what you get at the corner gas station... but it's hard to find.


There are ways to "de-alcohol" your gasoline. A person can also go to the self serve pumps at a small airport and buy 100LL AvGas, but it's well over $5.00 a gallon.


----------



## partdeux

LincTex said:


> REALLY? I never heard that before. OK, well I will just use some Lucas oil stabilizer in regular oil, then. It won't run off... ever.
> 
> There are ways to "de-alcohol" your gasoline. A person can also go to the self serve pumps at a small airport and buy 100LL AvGas, but it's well over $5.00 a gallon.


SAE published a report years ago that actually recommended a straight grade oil for long term storage.

Dang, never considered the 100LL, I should have known better as I used to fly  Wonder which of my pilot friends will get some fuel for me?


----------



## LincTex

partdeux said:


> Wonder which of my pilot friends will get some fuel for me?


Use this: http://www.airnav.com/fuel/local.html

KYIP Willow Run has self serve for $5.92

Y47 Oakland Southwest $5.99 self serve

34G Merillat Airport $5.90


----------



## partdeux

LincTex said:


> Use this: http://www.airnav.com/fuel/local.html
> 
> KYIP Willow Run has self serve for $5.92
> 
> Y47 Oakland Southwest $5.99 self serve
> 
> 34G Merillat Airport $5.90


thanks, but in the past, airports would not sell fuel to people with gas cans, they would only fuel airplanes.


----------



## LincTex

partdeux said:


> thanks, but in the past, airports would not sell fuel to people with gas cans, they would only fuel airplanes.


I didn't list any full service sites. 
All of those are self-serve.... the smaller the airport, the better the chance no one will be around.

There are a half dozen airports within 50 miles of me where anyone can walk in, swipe the ol' credit card, and pump into what ever container you brought with you.

Their biggest concern was always the road tax - - avgas has none so it can't be used on road, legally. But a generator or a tractor in the field is not a road vehicle, and neither is a non-street-legal race car. I have even brought from full service pumps and told them straight up it is for a race car that is not street legal. No problems at all.


----------



## TheLazyL

rachilders said:


> I've been told that you can plug a portable generator into one of your homes power outlets and it will power the homes other outlets.
> 
> The procedure was this: Run a line from the generator to one of your homes outlets after cutting the external power off at the homes main power box. You can then use the outlets in your home as long as you don't exceed your generators power rating.
> 
> Does anyone know for sure (especially one of you electricians) if this is true?


Turn off the main circuit breaker for your house.

Turn off any individual circuit breakers that you deem not necessary.

While you are warming up your generator, make a 220 volt extension cord with 2 male plugs. This will plug into a 220 volt electrical receipt to power both sides of your house circuit breaker box.

If you plug into the generator first, then the other end with the other male plug is hot and would be real easy to touch. If you're lucky your body will be jerking in a million directions all at the same time until the generator runs out of fuel. 8 to 10 hours. If you're not lucky then the pile of burnt ash is now you. I'd guess that's why they call an extension cord with two male ends a "Dead man's cable".

When power is restored.

Unplug the generator end first. If you unplug the other end first, the other male plug is hot and would be real easy to touch. If you're lucky your body will be jerking in a million directions all at the same time again until the generator runs out of fuel. 8 to 10 hours. If you're not lucky a second time then the pile of burnt ash is now you. Remember the term "Dead man's cable".

Turn on the main circuit breaker for your house.

Turn on any individual circuit breakers that you turned off earlier.

Then call a qualified Electrician and him/her install a discount switch with a pigtail for the generator.


----------



## cgrant

Hi, i was wondering if instead of using a 220 2 pole breaker can you use 2 - 110 single pole breakers to power the legs of an electrical panel.
reason i ask is my generator has 3 seperate circuits on it 1-30amp and 2 -20 amp circuits, so i was thinking would it be possible to run a cord from on of the 20 amp circuits from the generator to power one of the 110 single pole breakers on the panel and then take a cord from the 30 amp generator circuit and connect it to a 110v single pole breaker to power the other leg of the electrical panel. 
the reason i ask this is my generator is a 60 amp generator and has seperate circuits on it
thanks in advance!


----------



## Tex

Are you talking about parralleling the circuits to combine amperage? I'd be very careful. If the generator has a 220V output, half of the output circuits are fed on opposite phasing of the other half of the circuits. You're better off hard wiring the output through an inline 2 pole CB if you are going rig something up. Be sure to insulate your connections very well and keep the CB dry.(prefferably mounted on a wall)

TheLazyL's double male cord is known as a suicide cord. Make sure you know exactly what you are doing before trying something like that. I'm not an electrical inspector or even an electrician, but I do work with 3 phase electronics daily and suicide cords are meant for emergency 1 time use and only by someone who knows exactly what he/she is doing. Besides the danger of unplugging the wrong end of the cord, you have to consider that your whole generator output will be fed to your electrical panel through 1 220V circuit. Make sure that circuit will handle the current. Otherwise, you could start a fire.

My FIL was having problems with the circuit in his garage with all of his freezers. I found a loose neutral wire in his breaker box that had burned up. If the loose connection had been anywhere else in the house besides a metal box, his house would have burned down.


----------



## BlueShoe

labotomi said:


> I've wondered about this. If you connected your generator to your home wiring and left the main incoming breaker closed, you'd be trying to feed everyone on that distribution system. I wouldn't want to do a theory to practice to find out, but I think the generator would overload itself immediately.


Your house is typically connected to one phase of the 3 phases that power companies string down the road. Side streets usually have just one phase at the street. If your gennie is running and you haven't pulled your main breaker or meter, you'd be energizing that leg as far as it runs as well as everyone's house on that leg. I personally wouldn't pull my meter. I'd place a sign on it for the lineman that my main is pulled. When the power comes back on, your meter socket has live power to it and nothing guarding it from contact. Even without a generator, it might be a good idea to pull your main until power is restored so you don't get surges or exposed to faults.

During storm work, linemen open the cutout switches on legs of conductor and usually hang a flag for anyone in the area not to close that switch because they're working on the leg down the line out of sight. Your house doesn't have one of these cutout switches, so even if they open a switch at the end of your street, you're still connected to the line as is everyone else on your line. When linemen work storms on dead legs of conductor, they won't always wear they're rubber gloves and you can electrocute them when they reach up to repair a line. They drive the street to listen for generators first and open switches. Some butt in the area always thinks he's smarter than anyone and causes some dangerous situation for them.

Some transformers on poles have one of those cutout switches above them. 
Here's one type of cutout switch.








There's a fuse inside these that blows and the diagonal part falls out when that happens and it dangles from the bottom showing it's open. Your transformer won't energize until that fuse is replaced and the cutout closed. They use these on intersections of conductor too. The main line goes down the road and where they pull off a line in another direction, they'll place these. Since it's fused, if there is a short somewhere down the line, it will blow the fuse and open the cutout switch.

Think about being a lineman, the power is out on the line you're on. You can hear generators running in the distance, but you've tested the line to know they're not back-feeding it to the grid. But you know you're exposed to anyone who just walks to their electric panel and trips their main for a second in a brief moment of stupidity. That's why they get paid the way they do.


----------



## BlueShoe

ram91648 said:


> As I said in an earlier post, my Generac is sitting on it's own slab and wired in to the breaker panel through a back feed double pole 50 amp breaker so it isn't on wheels. I don't understand....... Why, if all the diodes and caps etc., are housed in metal and that metal is properly earth grounded, then why doesn't that constitute a Faraday box? It's all too confusing, not to mention the fact that I can't find any verification that anything I've been told is the only "factual" information.


Wouldn't you want to drive an 8' copper clad ground rod next to the enclosure and wire a solid copper wire to ground it too? Connecting the solid copper to the enclosure of course.


----------



## cgrant

Tex said:


> Are you talking about parralleling the circuits to combine amperage?


basically yes, my thinking was if i can run the 30amp curcuit to one leg and a 20 amp circiut to the other leg it would give me a combined amperage of 50 but that was before i realized that i had a brain fart and that a 30 amp 220 circiut would only be 15 amps when at 110v, so yesterday i installed a 220v double pole breaker and ordered an interlock online, local HD did not have an interlock.
the cableing i used to go from my generator to the outside wall mounted switch box is 10ga flexable cable with 1 female and 1 male end for safety, that way i dont accidentally grab an end and get zapped. the switch box i purchased is designed for this.
i almost purchased the 2 male connecters to make a suicide cable but decided against it for safety reasons. basically it wasnt worth the 20 bucks i would have saved, safety was more important than the 20 bucks.


----------



## cgrant

tenOC said:


> Wouldn't you want to drive an 8' copper clad ground rod next to the enclosure and wire a solid copper wire to ground it too? Connecting the solid copper to the enclosure of course.


good point, need to do this for mine


----------



## Well_Driller

tenOC said:


> Think about being a lineman, the power is out on the line you're on. You can hear generators running in the distance, but you've tested the line to know they're not back-feeding it to the grid. But you know you're exposed to anyone who just walks to their electric panel and trips their main for a second in a brief moment of stupidity. That's why they get paid the way they do.


Around here it's common practice for them to put a ground strap on the dead line while they're working on it for protection. They're also now using some circuit breakers in place of the fuses when feeding off a main run. They kind of look like a transformer but if you look closely you can see a lever with a ring, it points down when it's tripped or turned off. Up when it's on. Still you don't want to be back feeding a line. They are getting pretty good at tracing down the culprit if it happens.


----------



## LincTex

cgrant said:


> my thinking was if I can run the 30amp circuit to one leg and a 20 amp circuit to the other leg it would give me a combined amperage of 50


This will explain how the outlets on your generator are wired:

http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f16/your-6000-watt-gen-only-puts-out-3000-watts-11918/


----------



## labotomi

ram91648 said:


> Okay... So you're a lot smarter than I am. Now that you have taken on the guise of the educated one... what do I need to do to protect my generator(s) from EMP? I will assume, by your responses, that all I have been told is wrong. What should I do to protect them from EMP? I'm being sarcastic because I don't know who I should believe. I'm just a dumb ass idiot at the mercy of the educated. "HOW DO I PROTECT MY GENERATORS FROM EMP"?).............. I submit to you.........


I have been involved in 2 fields that overlap in this area. Electrical engineering and 10 years in the Navy Nuke program. That doesn't mean I'm an expert on EMPs.

I don't know about your specific generator and wasn't trying to imply that your's wasn't protected. I tried to look it up but what I could find is extremely limited. I found a site with replacement parts for the BNS Power Generac 9904-0 10,000 XL. This might not be the same as yours.

It does list such items as "system control board", rectifier, "power regulator board". I'm pretty sure there are solid state components in those items that would be damaged if exposed to an EMP.

Your generator may be designed with these enclosed sufficiently to protect them, but I have no way of knowing. If they're enclosed in an enclosure suitable to a Faraday cage, it would protect them from the first part of the EMP.

The second part of an EMP is similar to lightning strikes and most power systems are already partially protected by the power utility (if these protective devices weren't fried by the first part of the EMP)

The last part is what's going to hurt the country long term as it moves the earths magnetic field and that movement across conductors generates voltage into them. Anything from wires to piping. The longer the run or more coils in a motor/generator/transformer the worse it's going to be. That high voltage can travel along the power lines into businesses and homes. It also has a high probability of damaging numerous high voltage transformers across the country and we no longer make large transformers in the US. My company has to spec out and order a transformer 6 month in advance and that's with a normal work load overseas. If we needed to replace several hundred, how long would that take?

Anyway, it's doubtful that your generator is connected to the power lines unless it has an auto start feature which could potentially be fried.

There's so many variables when discussing an EMP. You and your neighbor might have the same setup, but one persons could be fried and the other work fine just because his was on the other side of his house or your ground was driven into dirt that had more moisture.

One thing I know it that even if everything you have survives, it's still going to suck when so many other things didn't.


----------



## elder

If there is an EMP a generator that survives is still a short term solution as one can only store so much gasoline.


----------



## LincTex

elder said:


> If there is an EMP a generator that survives is still a short term solution as one can only store so much gasoline.


I have plans to run the old Onan on woodgas if need be.

I also have a Chinese diesel genset that runs fine on vegetable oil.

Gasoline is only for temporary use. A person could convert to alcohol fuel if the area and farmland would support it.


----------



## BillM

I have an old rope crank generator that runs on propane. It is only hooked to a couple of emergency outlets that will run a freezer, a refrigerator and a small TV set.

I have 800 galons of propane in my tank so I could run this small generator and my cook stove for a real long time without refuleing.


----------



## labotomi

ecmillsjr said:


> LOL. I love it when people act as if they have infallible knowledge, and proudly proclaim it can't be done. They then proceed to laugh at the ones who say it can be. I've connected a generator through my dryer outlet for years using the method described in Popular Mechanics. It works like a charm, and it helps intelligent folks save tons of money.


Who said it couldn't be done? I think the discussion is if it *should* be done.

If anyone ever gets the chance to watch the video by Charlie Moorcraft about himself being injured called *"Remember Charlie"*, I'd suggest doing that. It will change the way you think safety and shortcuts.


----------



## elder

labotomi said:


> Who said it couldn't be done? I think the discussion is if it *should* be done.
> 
> If anyone ever gets the chance to watch the video by Charlie Moorcraft about himself being injured called *"Remember Charlie"*, I'd suggest doing that. It will change the way you think safety and shortcuts.


Good point! While I plan to continue use of my set-up I should remember to never recommend it to anyone else.


----------



## labotomi

elder said:


> Good point! While I plan to continue use of my set-up I should remember to never recommend it to anyone else.


I'll agree with you on that

I can work on live electrical equipment if needed. That doesn't mean I should if there's another way and I certainly wouldn't recommend it to others who aren't trained or know the dangers involved.

I've also jump started a locomotive using a welding machine. Did it work? Yes. Was it safe? Not even close.

Edit: I removed some comments after reading your earlier posts. I took the above one as sarcastic disagreement and your earlier posts make this seem sincere. My apologies for my mistake and earlier comments.


----------



## Szumi

*Here is how mine is set up.*

Years ago I bought property with a single wide on it. It had the meter on a pole near the house and the single wide was plugged into a socket.

Years later, I bought (mistake) a modular home and had the single wide removed.

I put a small outdoor Square D 6 breaker box on the pole and ran underground to the house panel. I also ran a feed to the water pump from the pole. This was fortuitous.

Last March a tree hit the line and broke the pole off at ground level. My brother a licensed electrical contractor and master electrician put a new pole in for me. Same kind of box but next to the main breaker, he put a 20A 2 pole breaker with a sheet metal interlock device so only one breaker could be on. The water pump (240V) used the last two slots.

The interlocked 20a 2 pole breaker connects to a male plug in an outdoor box. If the power goes out, I take my 25 ft 2 pole with ground extension cord and connect to the pole socket and to the 4kw generator in the storage shed I built near to it this year. Power up generator, flip interlocked breakers and I'm good. I passed inspection also. I don't normally worry much about code but with the power company you gotta follow the rules.

Shed provides security for generator, provides storage for stabilized gasoline, and lowers sound signature. Back window in shed looking down 900ft of property makes for a deer blind and ventilation for generator when deployed.


----------



## smaj100

*direct to breaker*



rachilders said:


> Thanks for the heads up. I thought there would be more to it than simply running a power cord from the generator to an outlet.
> 
> OTOH, it seems if I run power DIRECTLY to the fuse box, the procedure will work and it can be done fairly easily.


I know this a late post but thought I would share. (I am sure everything I am about to say depends on location and codes and the willingness of the electrician to help you out.)

I had an electrician for $150 come out and hookup some breakers straight in the main panel. No extra panel any of that jazz, just added three breakers to take the power from the 220 plug off the generator, he even installed a nifty 220 outdoor receptacle on the outside wall near the breaker and made a plug for the generator to the wall. Now that being said I have to manually shut things off and flip breakers around to make the generator power the house, but thats ok. I numbered all the breakers with a little label maker and created a laminated sheet of instructions for the wife or kids to use and still have power in my absence.

Since the generator sits outside of the fence, and dog area, I also used a hammer drill poked a hole in the concrete driveway and buried an eye bolt anchor and recemented it, to allow for the heaviest chain possible to secure the generator.

Good luck


----------



## seanallen

@smaj100: get an interlock breaker! If regular power comes on while your gennie is running and your service is not isolated from the power co grid, the least that will happen is your gennie fries. If youre lucky. What will you say if some poor bastard down the line is fixing a transformer that you just happen to be hooked up to and gets electrocuted? Spend the extra money and possibly save a life, or keep your house from burning.


----------



## fondini

Save a life and avoid a murder charge.


----------



## smaj100

*ooppsss*



seanallen said:


> @smaj100: get an interlock breaker! If regular power comes on while your gennie is running and your service is not isolated from the power co grid, the least that will happen is your gennie fries. If youre lucky. What will you say if some poor bastard down the line is fixing a transformer that you just happen to be hooked up to and gets electrocuted? Spend the extra money and possibly save a life, or keep your house from burning.


I guess I should have mentioned that when I was discussing the steps to connecting the genn and powering the house with it. That is step no1 after the power goes out before anything else is connected or breakers flipped. The mains to the house are cut off, then go through the procedures to hookup the generator and flip the breakers to connect the power. But a very good point at the least the house could burn at worst someone could be killed by messing with the electricity and back feeding the grid like that.


----------



## seanallen

As an electrician im constantly having to work on residential and commercial stuff. You wouldnt beleive the amount of times ive been lit up because of improper wiring practices. The interlock device is a lifesaver. 
I know i came off a little harsh. My apologies. It is a subject i feel very strongly about. The amount of dangerous crap i have to repair or replace on a dailly basis is amazing. I cant explain why more places dont burn; just God blessed, i guess. 
Please please consider getting one of those devices. They are cheap and effective and eliminate a potential loss of life.


----------



## LincTex

I know this topic is already kind of a dead horse.... but wouldn't all the existing houses on your line be too much of a draw and just blow your breaker? There are four houses that are metered from the transformer our service entrance gets power from, I can't power the other three without tripping a breaker for sure! 

I still think its better to be safe than sorry, I just don't think it's very possible. Unless I had a monster sized generator.


----------



## smaj100

*Agreed*



seanallen said:


> As an electrician im constantly having to work on residential and commercial stuff. You wouldnt beleive the amount of times ive been lit up because of improper wiring practices. The interlock device is a lifesaver.
> I know i came off a little harsh. My apologies. It is a subject i feel very strongly about. The amount of dangerous crap i have to repair or replace on a dailly basis is amazing. I cant explain why more places dont burn; just God blessed, i guess.
> Please please consider getting one of those devices. They are cheap and effective and eliminate a potential loss of life.


Sean, I don't think you came of harsh. I'm a helicopter instructor pilot so I know passion about topics that are near and dear and life altering if you get it wrong. If we werent building a new home out in the country with the interlock installed for the new automatic genny I would. I do plan on having the same electrician come out and remove said items from the house once we move. I don't need or want to be party to someone elses stupidity because they look and go oh someone else had it wired no problem.

When we remolded many years ago, the screwed up stuff I found inside the house, wiring, and plumbing was amazing.

:beercheer:


----------



## labotomi

LincTex said:


> I know this topic is already kind of a dead horse.... but wouldn't all the existing houses on your line be too much of a draw and just blow your breaker? There are four houses that are metered from the transformer our service entrance gets power from, I can't power the other three without tripping a breaker for sure!
> 
> I still think its better to be safe than sorry, I just don't think it's very possible. Unless I had a monster sized generator.


I had he same question earlier

http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f16/generator-house-hookup-253/index8.html#post145802

Received a reply that talked around it, but never actually addressed my question.


----------



## Szumi

LincTex said:


> I know this topic is already kind of a dead horse.... but wouldn't all the existing houses on your line be too much of a draw and just blow your breaker? There are four houses that are metered from the transformer our service entrance gets power from, I can't power the other three without tripping a breaker for sure!
> 
> I still think its better to be safe than sorry, I just don't think it's very possible. Unless I had a monster sized generator.


Here are a couple scenarios.

Line down from your home to transformer on pole. That happens a lot. Lineman are not the only people that may contact that. Passersby and children could also come in contact with it. 120v in respect to ground, 240v leg to leg.

Line down on primary side of transformer, neighbors using a transfer switch for their genny and you are the only one connected between you and the break.

That wire on the ground is at 4Kv or better and is bare. I don't know how much current you will pass to ground causing a load on your genset. It is variable due to conditions and you might have the capacity to cover it.

Touch it with out the proper PE and die.

Szumi


----------



## partdeux

seanallen said:


> As an electrician im constantly having to work on residential and commercial stuff. You wouldnt beleive the amount of times ive been lit up because of improper wiring practices. The interlock device is a lifesaver.


Sean,

If you could have seen the stuff in my prior house...

Ground wire went up, to what I never did find out
Romax between the doorwall frame and stud, complete with nails driven through it.
Think my fav was romax that went into a wood beam, but didn't come out. It was hot wire, but had no idea why. So I yanked on it and it came out. Bare wire cut clean off, shoved into a wood beam
Ground from at least one outlet tied to to the gas line
indoor romax buried outside, no GFI

It went on and on and on  I'm guessing the prior owner was intentionally trying to burn the house down.


----------



## ram91648

I just love the old knob and tube where they keep reversing black and white. Or how about instead of a splice box and wire nuts you find soldered and friction taped splices laying in the insulation in the attic without any type of enclosure. After a few hours of pulling out hair I find it easier and of course much safer to just re-wire with romex..........


----------



## seanallen

One of my fav occurences: i wired a new house. The foyer got framed into a barrel ceiling. Lots of wood. One of my front floodlight switch legs got a nail shot through it. Short between hot and ground. Totally inaccessible to pull new wire. I figured out where the short was by disconnecting neutral and ground, turning switch on and going up into attic and found a nearby ground. Then i started touching nailheads throughout that region of the framing with the outher lead on my meter. Found a hot head, turned off switch , and used cats claw to remobe the nail. Problem solved!!!


----------



## partdeux

seanallen said:


> Found a hot head, turned off switch , and used cats claw to remobe the nail. Problem solved!!!


except the insulation is violated...


----------



## fondini

seanallen said:


> One of my fav occurences: i wired a new house. The foyer got framed into a barrel ceiling. Lots of wood. One of my front floodlight switch legs got a nail shot through it. Short between hot and ground. Totally inaccessible to pull new wire. I figured out where the short was by disconnecting neutral and ground, turning switch on and going up into attic and found a nearby ground. Then i started touching nailheads throughout that region of the framing with the outher lead on my meter. Found a hot head, turned off switch , and used cats claw to remobe the nail. Problem solved!!!


I am a licensed electrical contractor who has found a niche in insurance restoration, (wind,water and fire damage).
The problem is not solved, just delayed. 
I have seen many, many fires due to a nail or staple compromising the insulation just as you have described. You really need to fix this problem correctly.
It may take a while, but it will be a problem again, I am sure the homeowners lawyers will come after you for damages.
As to getting " lit up" on a regular basis, please invest in proper test equipment and training.
There is really no reason for this and is the personal responsibility of every electrician to work safely.
Best of luck!


----------



## seanallen

Oh it was. Reported it to the homeowner. They sued the builder who came out and tore out that section of framing. Located and replaced damaged Romex. Point is: theres ALWAYS someone who can do it better. As for test equipment and training who cares. Ive noticed that for every 100 ppl that get into electrical, only about 4 or 5 wind up making it as far as a licensed contractor level. Almost all the rest get fed up with the rat race and low wages compared to the danger and personal responsibility requirements. 
When i first read your post i was a little irked. Then i reread it and examined why it bothered me. I guess its because i take safety and professionalism seriously and it sounded like you were dissing me. Not true. This stems from the frustrations of having to deal with lazy and irresponsible coworkers. I have to butt heads with them on a dailly, even hourly, basis about basic wiring practices, sloppy work ethics, etc. Im not in charge of hiring at my co, just training the greenhorns. 
When i first started in electrical i was determined to become my own boss. Well, after seeing whats required i dont think so. Just gonna stay at this level until i start something else or retire. Im down in Alabama which is one of the most cut-throat business environs in America.


----------



## readytogo

My setup is simple;generator has its own breaker box with 1 20 amp breaker for the refrigerator,and 1 15 amp breaker for a lighting circuit,directly wire to this both circuits breakers at the main box.Main breaker plus rest off,this other 2 open,that way I have no food spoilage and some lights.This setup can work anyway you want ,to run what you need
base on your generator power


----------



## labotomi

Szumi said:


> Here are a couple scenarios.
> 
> Line down from your home to transformer on pole. That happens a lot. Lineman are not the only people that may contact that. Passersby and children could also come in contact with it. 120v in respect to ground, 240v leg to leg.
> 
> Line down on primary side of transformer, neighbors using a transfer switch for their genny and you are the only one connected between you and the break.
> 
> That wire on the ground is at 4Kv or better and is bare. I don't know how much current you will pass to ground causing a load on your genset. It is variable due to conditions and you might have the capacity to cover it.
> 
> Touch it with out the proper PE and die.
> 
> Szumi


I think you missed the point of his post.


----------



## readytogo

Dealing with generators, main electrical panels,extensions is a tricky business. You can make a set-up coming from the generator with a 12g heavy extension with a 20amp breaker at the end, by removing a 20amp breaker from the panel this set-up will power that particular circuit only; extension hot wire(black-red) to breaker, white to neutral bus and green to ground. You must remember that the shorter the extension the less power drop at the end, MAIN PANEL BREAKER OFF. But you know, finally I did away from all that and used my generator with an extension for the refrigerator or window air and the hell with the rest, is a lot simpler less problematic .ALLWAYS MAIN BREAKER OFF. 
Many portable type ice makers will make 50 pounds of ice per day so fill the cooler and rest the generator for 24 hours, conserved fuel ,no noise at night and one more toy for the attic.


----------



## HamiltonFelix

I am sure many of us have rigged up a "suicide cord" at some point (my favorite was backfeeding a dryer outlet from the 240v output of a 4, 5, or 7 kw generator). But it is NOT safe. For the average home owner with an occasional use small generator, just spend the money on something like a little GenTran switch panel, choose your most important circuits in an outage, and wire it in.

The key to safety and legality is the "either-or" quality of any transfer switch. It must be impossible to be connected to the generator and your utility power at the same time. One OR the other, never both.


----------



## ram91648

HamiltonFelix said:


> I am sure many of us have rigged up a "suicide cord" at some point (my favorite was backfeeding a dryer outlet from the 240v output of a 4, 5, or 7 kw generator). But it is NOT safe. For the average home owner with an occasional use small generator, just spend the money on something like a little GenTran switch panel, choose your most important circuits in an outage, and wire it in.
> 
> The key to safety and legality is the "either-or" quality of any transfer switch. It must be impossible to be connected to the generator and your utility power at the same time. One OR the other, never both.


All that you say is absolutely correct and logical. On the other hand, anyone who doesn't know enough to "COMPLETELY" disconnect from the grid "BEFORE" connecting their generator should first be horse whipped and second rendered incapable of creating offspring. To not take precautions to protect unaware linemen or others takes the mental capacity of a small retarded flea. These people should only have candles to read by and a wood stove to cook on. Anything more complex should be kept out of their reach. Oh, and if you keep shutting down your generator and switch back to the grid to see if it's up yet, I use an easy trick. Connect a wire to one side of the 240 on the grid side of your main breaker and another to the ground or neutral. This will power any sort of indicator(s) you choose and will illuminate upon grid power up. I use small red 120 volt LED's with a rocker switch on the hot leg. As soon as I see the LED's light up (I have several in key locations around the house) I kill the generator and switch back to the grid. Turn off the LED circuit and make some popcorn.


----------



## musketjim

Years ago I paid a contractor to install a transfer panel and build a power cord to run from gen. to panel so I can run furnace and water pump. Unreliable electricity up here due to storms, earthquakes and the possibility of extreme cold. Just common sense day-to-day prepping I guess. Of course a running generator will be like a ringing dinner bell. Just have to deal with that I guess. It's only a short term setup.


----------



## LincTex

musketjim said:


> Of course a running generator will be like a ringing dinner bell.


1) Buy only a 1800 RPM unit from an old motorhome. Forget the 3600 RPM designs.
2) Pour a nice thick slab for it to sit on.
3) Build a cinderblock house around it. Make baffled vents.
4) Bury a BIG muffler underground

Now you won't be ringing any bells. In fact, you won't even hear it from 50 feet away.


----------



## ram91648

rachilders said:


> I've been told that you can plug a portable generator into one of your homes power outlets and it will power the homes other outlets.
> 
> The procedure was this: Run a line from the generator to one of your homes outlets after cutting the external power off at the homes main power box. You can then use the outlets in your home as long as you don't exceed your generators power rating.
> 
> Does anyone know for sure (especially one of you electricians) if this is true?


You are correct to a certain point. Running a cord to one outlet is a problematic solution. Don't do it. If you are going to connect to your breaker panel with a cord from a generator, do it this way. Do the needed wiring from the panel to the generator interface with correctly sized wire (i.e. 6/3 w/ ground or larger) and install a double pole 50 amp breaker in the panel. Connect the 6/3 red and black to the poles of the breaker and the neutral (white) and ground to the appropriate bars in the panel. This circuit will be a "back feed" into your panel from the generator. You'll install an appropriately sized plug on the generator end of that same wire. "BEFORE" you fire up the generator, turn the main breaker "OFF" This protects any linemen that might be working on the lines in the area. I always turn off "ALL" the circuit breakers before starting the generator. Fire up the generator, turn on the double 50 amp breaker to energize the breaker panel, turn on the needed circuits for whatever you want to power up and "VOILA" you got power. Easy, safe and very controllable.


----------



## Norse

ram91648 said:


> You are correct to a certain point. Running a cord to one outlet is a problematic solution. Don't do it. If you are going to connect to your breaker panel with a cord from a generator, do it this way. Do the needed wiring from the panel to the generator interface with correctly sized wire (i.e. 6/3 w/ ground or larger) and install a double pole 50 amp breaker in the panel. Connect the 6/3 red and black to the poles of the breaker and the neutral (white) and ground to the appropriate bars in the panel. This circuit will be a "back feed" into your panel from the generator. You'll install an appropriately sized plug on the generator end of that same wire. "BEFORE" you fire up the generator, turn the main breaker "OFF" This protects any linemen that might be working on the lines in the area. I always turn off "ALL" the circuit breakers before starting the generator. Fire up the generator, turn on the double 50 amp breaker to energize the breaker panel, turn on the needed circuits for whatever you want to power up and "VOILA" you got power. Easy, safe and very controllable.


I agree, except you should pull your main breaker out of the panel. This eliminates any chance anyone will flip it on while the generator is backfeeding the panel.


----------



## ram91648

Norse said:


> I agree, except you should pull your main breaker out of the panel. This eliminates any chance anyone will flip it on while the generator is backfeeding the panel.


Just stick on a breaker lock and your set. In my house I, and only I, control the emergency activities. Anyone else present just sits back and enjoys the fruits of my labor. Besides, pulling the main breaker out is a pain and reinstalling it after the grid comes back up is dangerous. You'd have to handle the entry cable "HOT" and in my book that's a no-no. The way I described in the last post works very well. Someone has to be in charge during an emergency.


----------



## Norse

ram91648 said:


> Just stick on a breaker lock and your set. In my house I, and only I, control the emergency activities. Anyone else present just sits back and enjoys the fruits of my labor. Besides, pulling the main breaker out is a pain and reinstalling it after the grid comes back up is dangerous. You'd have to handle the entry cable "HOT" and in my book that's a no-no. The way I described in the last post works very well. Someone has to be in charge during an emergency.


Not really, just make sure you have the breaker in the off position when putting it back in.


----------



## LincTex

Norse said:


> Not really, just make sure you have the breaker in the off position when putting it back in.


You obviously do *NOT* comprehend how electricity flows from the pole, to your meter, and then to the main breaker.

Removing or installing the main breaker with the utility lines "HOT" is an extremely dangerous and stupid thing to suggest!!!

There is a usually a "breaker" of sorts (mine is a big knife switch) on your transformer, you would need to open that and kill all power coming off the transformer before you attempt to play with your "main" breaker.


----------



## zimmy

Too rich for their blood.


----------



## ram91648

Norse said:


> Not really, just make sure you have the breaker in the off position when putting it back in.


Hmmmmm.... Apparently you are unfamiliar with a "main" breaker. We're not talking about a secondary "disconnect" breaker. We're talking about the large breaker mounted in the load center by at least two large tie down screws and the entry cable is connected with two equally large allen screw posts. It's not just unplug and plug in again. The process is very dangerous and should be avoided like the plague if the grid is hot. Re-read my previous posts and you'll see how logical it is. No muss, no fuss, just simple and inexpensive and most of all, safe.


----------



## ram91648

zimmy said:


> I have a dedicated generator, building, fuel tank, and transfer switch for my house. With the generator away from the house you eliminate noise, and fire possibilities, also you have a dry building to work in during a bad storm.


Hey, Zimmy..........While I'm quite impressed by your set up, please keep in mind that most of us in this discussion are just normal working class folks. I don't know anyone in my circle of family and friends who could afford the obvious thousands of dollars it takes to put something like that together. Most of us have to do the best we can with what we have and do it safely. But, thanks for the peak at the upper class ideas.


----------



## LincTex

Zimmy, 
I hate to say it, but I get envious of you every time you post those pictures up of your rig!!


----------



## Enchant18

My ex set up the panel with each breaker color coded red, yellow and green. The generator could handle the green load but to turn on a yellow meant no green on at the same time. We had simple directions for this as well as huge letters stating to flip main first. It was for the times I was alone with the kids and needed the generator. No thinking required!


----------



## MagicMarc

Can you simply hook an RV panel up then plug a generator into that?


----------



## LincTex

MagicMarc said:


> Can you simply hook an RV panel up then plug a generator into that?


Do you have a schematic for one?


----------



## vickers

I have 200 Amp service into my house. In order to legally and safely hook up my generator to the house (and still retain control as to what circuits I grant power to) I would probably need to purchase this?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-200-A...ency-Power-Transfer-Switch-TC10324R/100150463

An electrician would then need to be hired to install it, as well as a plug to hook my generator into the house?

I know, super technical jargon there.


----------



## TheLazyL

vickersja said:


> I have 200 Amp service into my house. In order to legally and safely hook up my generator to the house (and still retain control as to what circuits I grant power to) I would probably need to purchase this?
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-200-A...ency-Power-Transfer-Switch-TC10324R/100150463
> 
> An electrician would then need to be hired to install it, as well as a plug to hook my generator into the house?
> 
> I know, super technical jargon there.


Yes. Flip the lever up house is on the grid power. Center position no power (if it has a center position) no power to house. Lever down, disconnected from grid power and on generator.

IMHO A qualified electrician would install with a minimum of down time of grid power.


----------



## oldasrocks

vickersja said:


> I have 200 Amp service into my house. In order to legally and safely hook up my generator to the house (and still retain control as to what circuits I grant power to) I would probably need to purchase this?
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-200-A...ency-Power-Transfer-Switch-TC10324R/100150463
> 
> An electrician would then need to be hired to install it, as well as a plug to hook my generator into the house?
> 
> I know, super technical jargon there.


Yes thats the box you need but I paid a lot less at a local supply house.

Our local electric company will install it free here if your meter is on a pole. they won't if on the side of the house-unknown reasoning.
I would install a watertight outlet in that box to plug your genny into. BE sure to use a heavy enough cord from the genny to the box. I have 6-2-G on mine.


----------



## GaryS

vickersja said:


> I have 200 Amp service into my house. In order to legally and safely hook up my generator to the house (and still retain control as to what circuits I grant power to) I would probably need to purchase this?
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-200-A...ency-Power-Transfer-Switch-TC10324R/100150463
> 
> An electrician would then need to be hired to install it, as well as a plug to hook my generator into the house?
> 
> I know, super technical jargon there.


My 20kw generator came with a smart transfer switch. An electrician had to hook it up, but everything was automatic when it came on and it selected which circuits to prioritize. It cost more than a manual transfer switch to wire in, but it worked slick.


----------



## elder

Ever worked on a range top or oven and noticed that it used 14 or 16AWG wire inside? AWG current recommendations are based upon acceptable voltage drop as well as amperage, 12AWG is actually capable of carrying 41 amps. I used 12AWG with proper heat rating for the insulation to make up my 3 wire cord to connect to house wiring, but my genny is only 5.5KW and the cord is only about 8' long..


----------



## LincTex

elder said:


> Ever worked on a range top or oven and noticed that it used 14 or 16AWG wire inside? AWG current recommendations are based upon acceptable voltage drop as well as amperage,....


Same with the wire sizes inside generator heads. My big 6.5KW Marathon head (*HEAVY!*) uses 14 gauge wire for the connecting leads... weird.

Look at the thin strip of metal inside a fuse... it amazes me that a 20 or 30 amp fuse has such a thin strip for all that current to pass through.


----------



## oldasrocks

I agree, crap is wired cheaper all the time. I prefer to overkill and not worry.

Elder 5.5KW is over 44 amps. I sure hope you have the genny over 8 ft from the house.

The longer the wire the more the voltage drop. A wire thats gets hot is burning a lot of dollars too.


----------



## LincTex

oldasrocks said:


> Elder 5.5KW is over 44 amps. .


at 120 volts it is 45.83 amps... at 240 volts it is 22.91 amps. Most 3600 rpm gens do not run the full 5500 watts through one pair at 120 volts, it is split into two circuits.

See this:
http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f16/your-6000-watt-gen-only-puts-out-3000-watts-11918/


----------



## labotomi

elder said:


> Ever worked on a range top or oven and noticed that it used 14 or 16AWG wire inside? AWG current recommendations are based upon acceptable voltage drop as well as amperage, 12AWG is actually capable of carrying 41 amps.





LincTex said:


> Same with the wire sizes inside generator heads. My big 6.5KW Marathon head (*HEAVY!*) uses 14 gauge wire for the connecting leads... weird.


The current rating on wiring is based on temperature as well. When you get into a situation where the temperature is higher such as an oven or on inside a generator head, the cables are derated.


----------



## Tirediron

If you are wiring a plug type cord into a transfer switch it might be a good idea to put a short cord at the switch with as big of wires as needed for the service load, that can be left inside an enclosure. then when necessary hook an extension cord sized to you generator. this would eliminate a cord possibly being out in the weather or worse buried under a snow drift. 'cause the power doesn't wait for sunny days to go out


----------



## elder

oldasrocks said:


> I agree, crap is wired cheaper all the time. I prefer to overkill and not worry.
> 
> Elder 5.5KW is over 44 amps. I sure hope you have the genny over 8 ft from the house.
> 
> The longer the wire the more the voltage drop. A wire thats gets hot is burning a lot of dollars too.


My oven and cook top are originals in my house built in 1973. The wire size is common industry practice ask any repair tech.

Check your math, 5.5KW is not over 44 amps for a 240V circuit, also I do not run at max load.

Eight feet is about right to place it just outside my garage door allowing me to plug it into my welder receptacle.

The wire doesn't even get warm, and 8' has negligible voltage drop compared to house circuit lengths.


----------



## partdeux

elder said:


> My oven and cook top are originals in my house built in 1973. The wire size is common industry practice ask any repair tech.
> 
> Check your math, 5.5KW is not over 44 amps for a 240V circuit, also I do not run at max load.
> 
> Eight feet is about right to place it just outside my garage door allowing me to plug it into my welder receptacle.
> 
> The wire doesn't even get warm, and 8' has negligible voltage drop compared to house circuit lengths.


Wire type, length, and max current will determine wire size.


----------



## LincTex

Amperage charts

http://lugsdirect.com/WireCurrentAmpacitiesNEC-Table-301-16.htm

Neat wire size calculator here:
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

Do a search for " wire amp chart " and you will get all kings of charts...

This one is for 12 volts


----------



## johnh

Very simply:
1. turn off your electrical panel MAIN breaker and all but the dryer 240v breakers
2. plug your 240 volt 'suicide' plug into the electric dryer outlet
3. plug into your 240 volt generator plug and start it up.

You now have both legs of your electrical panel energized and all your 120v outlets.


----------



## LincTex

johnh said:


> Very simply:
> 1. turn off your electrical panel MAIN breaker


This is the one, most *crucial *step that many fear is overlooked and can cause damage and loss of life elsewhere.


----------



## oldasrocks

johnh said:


> Very simply:
> 1. turn off your electrical panel MAIN breaker and all but the dryer 240v breakers
> 2. plug your 240 volt 'suicide' plug into the electric dryer outlet
> 3. plug into your 240 volt generator plug and start it up.
> 
> You now have both legs of your electrical panel energized and all your 120v outlets.


WRONG WRONG WRONG! juice can still jump across the terminals. Proper way is a positive disconnect--in other words a physical disconnect- removing the main breaker is necessary. Best it to install a disconnect panel. They only cost about $90. and may save a life.
Talk to you electricity supplier if you don't believe me. Anyone caught pulling the above stunt of merely shutting it off will be disconnected permanently here.


----------



## labotomi

oldasrocks said:


> WRONG WRONG WRONG! juice can still jump across the terminals.


Jump across the terminals? ?? Maybe if lightning struck the line...

That is one of the most misinformed comments I've heard in a very long time.


----------



## oldasrocks

Well there must be some real stupid engineers at Laclede Electric here in town.

For that matter some real stupid engineers in the town I was in in Colorado.

They mandate a positive connect or else they will pull your meter permanently.


----------



## labotomi

oldasrocks said:


> Well there must be some real stupid engineers at Laclede Electric here in town.
> 
> For that matter some real stupid engineers in the town I was in in Colorado.
> 
> They mandate a positive connect or else they will pull your meter permanently.


The mandate may be true, but the reason of "juice can still jump across the terminals" is BS. I'd suggest you ask those engineers for clarification because this engineer is saying outright that your statement is wrong. If those engineers say it's because of "juice can still jump across the terminals" then I will go on record as stating that they are indeed stupid engineers at Laclede Electric and the town you were at in Colorado.

I'd bet that the mandate is because of the possibility of the breakers being shut since their is no lock out procedure for private residences and thus the linemen do not have positive control of the circuits

Breakers are used to remove power from a circuit during times when people are working on them. Opening breakers is recognized by OSHA and NFPA70E as being an approved safe method for de-energization. If there were problems with using breakers to remove power, it would result in many, many deaths and then it would lead to many, many lawsuits.


----------



## oldasrocks

Hold your finger an inch away from the terminal of a Gallager fence charger. After you get up off the floor explain to me how electricity can't jump across a circuit.

Better safe that sorry. Even if there is a chance in 10 million do you want to take this chance and kill a lineworker? Personally Idon't know if it could happen or not. Rules by Electric Companies are in place for a reason.

A kid tripping the main back on? Excess moisture creating a path? Lack of knowledge tripping the wrong breaker? Curiosity to see what will happen?

Here they mandate an outside box that physically disconnects the main when switching to the genny. Our Guardian Generic has one built into the inside fuse box. I wired it in myself and called for an inspection. The inspector took off the inside cover to see the disconnect bar. It trips automatically.


----------



## labotomi

oldasrocks said:


> Personally Idon't know if it could happen or not.


Basically you don't know if it could happen and don't know the reason for the mandate yet you wish to argue because you think you're right.

Ok... You're right. I'm just not sure about what.


----------



## oldasrocks

LOL, I think I like you.

NO I'm simply, in my confused state, saying that most, if not all, electric companies mandate a physical break in the Circuit. Following rules will keep a person out of trouble. As I said here they say they will pull your meter and you will be blacklisted and never allowed a meter again on their system.

In past yrs I've done the same circuiting through the dryer outlet.


----------



## LincTex

oldasrocks said:


> Hold your finger an inch away from the terminal of a Gallager fence charger. After you get up off the floor explain to me how electricity can't jump across a circuit.


Yes, in that example, the statement of "electricity jump across a circuit" is correct.

However, the potential in a fence charger circuit is far, far higher than what we use as "standard" household power - fence chargers are similar to ignition systems where you have a very high voltage (potential) of 10,000 volts or more that can force electrons to flow over a very large air gap.

With 120/240 AC power used in residential household lines, that ability to jump a large gap is lessened considerably because the potential to "push" the electrons just isn't high enough.

You can see this at home right at the outlet itself when unplugging a heavy load, like a large window unit A/C, space heater, or similar. Yes, there is some arcing that occurs when a circuit is broken under a high load (amperage) draw, but you'll notice that the arc extinguishes rather quickly - perhaps less than 1/32"? Imagine what injuries we would have in the US if the arc would continue as you pulled the plug several inches away from the outlet!


----------



## partdeux

absolute unmitigated BS. Ever hear of an interlock kit?


----------



## johnh

"WRONG WRONG WRONG! juice can still jump across the terminals."

well if your juice can jump across breaker contacts, it surely can jump across the disconnect!
Breakers are regularly used as lockout devices to ensure people DON'T get hurt. There is no difference here.


----------



## partdeux

johnh said:


> "WRONG WRONG WRONG! juice can still jump across the terminals."
> 
> well if your juice can jump across breaker contacts, it surely can jump across the disconnect!
> Breakers are regularly used as lockout devices to ensure people DON'T get hurt. There is no difference here.


LOL

Jumping electricty... from someone that probably has no idea what the inside of a breaker box even looks like.


----------



## cowboyhermit

Wow, this argument just won't die

Electricity can jump (arc) obviously, we use this for countless electrical applications, however the distance an arc can travel is dependent on the voltage. 1000+ volts like a fencer, ignition system etc can arc quite readily however lower voltages like in a household system are extremely limited. Breakers are designed to withstand higher voltages than they will encounter (under-rated) and so this is not an issue, they will not arc.

The real issue is that without a transfer switch it is POSSIBLE for power to be applied by someone throwing the breaker or applying power without first switching the breaker off. In our area we have a way to lock the breaker on the pole off, making it safe to hook up a generator. The problem with this is that someone could still hook up the generator without first switching the breaker off, it shouldn't happen but neither should people put gasoline in their diesel cars, push on a door that says pull, walk into a room and forget what we were getting, etc. We live in the real world, I don't trust people not to do ridiculously stupid things and don't blame power companies for not trusting people either.

Bottom line, as it has been said many times, yes you can use a suicide plug, yes you can wire in a special circuit, it will work. If you have to do so in an emergency please be extremely careful and know you could get in serious trouble or theoretically kill someone. If you have a way to lock out power at the mains or meter, please do so, just remember that it still is not as safe as a transfer switch because of the possibility of doing things in the wrong order or someone flipping the breaker.


----------



## labotomi

cowboyhermit said:


> Wow, this argument just won't die


If you want it to die, why bring it up.. Again?

Of course there's the possibility for electricity to flow through the air gap. Air is conductive even if it's to a extremely small amount. *HIGH* voltages can cause ionization of air which greatly reduces the resistance allowing more current.

The voltage in a home isn't remotely high enough to ionized air or cross even a small air gap. There must be physical contact.

It's silly to me to think breakers don't accomplish the one single thing they're designed to do.


----------



## cowboyhermit

labotomi said:


> If you want it to die, why bring it up.. Again?
> 
> Because it keeps coming up over and over, I wasn't the one that "brought it up", I wasn't even the first to post today.
> 
> It's silly to me to think breakers don't accomplish the one single thing they're designed to do.


Statements like your last one are why I commented, by recognizing the true drawbacks of simply flipping breakers, as opposed to a false one perhaps we could have some agreement.

It isn't "silly" to think that breakers are not the best way to prevent backfeeding. That is certainly not the "one thing" they're designed to do, they are designed primarily for over-current protection with the added benefit of easy disconnect. They weren't designed to prevent backfeeding but they will work for that purpose as long as proper procedures are followed, although this use might be illegal or against code. Transfer switches, automatic or manual *were* designed for this purpose, that is the "one single thing" they were designed to do.


----------



## labotomi

cowboyhermit said:


> It isn't "silly" to think that breakers are not the best way to prevent backfeeding.


Is that what I said? No, it isn't. Understand what I say before you attempt to correct my statements.



cowboyhermit said:


> That is certainly not the "one thing" they're designed to do, they are designed primarily for over-current protection with the added benefit of easy disconnect. They weren't designed to prevent backfeeding but they will work for that purpose as long as proper procedures are followed, although this use might be illegal or against code.


You've given three scenarios where the purpose of the breaker is exactly the same... To put a physical break in an electrical circuit.

Once again, a breaker has only one purpose.


----------



## cowboyhermit

labotomi said:


> Is that what I said? No, it isn't. Understand what I say before you attempt to correct my statements.
> 
> You've given three scenarios where the purpose of the breaker is exactly the same... To put a physical break in an electrical circuit.
> 
> Once again, a breaker has only one purpose.


I understand very well what you are saying and it is incorrect. A switch has one purpose, an over current breaker without a manual off (pop up for instance) has a single purpose, a transfer switch has one purpose. 
It might be more correct to say that a common breaker has only one mode of action but even that is incorrect, a breaker can be tripped internally from heat or manually.

I explained why I commented on this thread, what was your purpose in responding to my first post exactly?


----------



## labotomi

cowboyhermit said:


> A switch has one purpose, an over current breaker without a manual off (pop up for instance) has a single purpose, a transfer switch has one purpose.
> It might be more correct to say that a common breaker has only one mode of action but even that is incorrect, a breaker can be tripped internally from heat or manually.


You're confusing the what with the why. A breaker opens a circuit... period. Why it does that could be for a number of reasons: manually, overcurrent, ground fault, underfrequency, undervoltage, interlocked, timed, programatically, arc fault etc. etc...



cowboyhermit said:


> I explained why I commented on this thread, what was your purpose in responding to my first post exactly?


To expound on your statement. You seem to have taken the "It's silly to me to think breakers don't accomplish the one single thing they're designed to do" remark I made as being directed toward you. It wasn't. I agree with what you stated in that post.


----------



## LincTex

I can't believe we are up to 18 pages.... 

:dunno:


----------



## cowboyhermit

labotomi said:


> You're confusing the what with the why. A breaker opens a circuit... period. Why it does that could be for a number of reasons: manually, overcurrent, ground fault, underfrequency, undervoltage, interlocked, timed, programatically, arc fault etc. etc...


You used the word purpose, this indicates "the why", I listed multiple "purposes" for a breaker. In the first post you mentioned "the one thing that it was designed to do" and like I said it was designed to disconnect under a overcurrent and it was designed to be a manual shutoff, it was not however designed to prevent backfeeding it just happens to be capable of it if proper procedures are followed. A transfer switch was designed for that purpose.

Other than this minute point I think we would pretty much agree on the actual subject at hand, but then again I think most of the people on this thread agree for the most part. That is why I find this thread frustrating to read.



LincTex said:


> I can't believe we are up to 18 pages....


Yeah, I'm tapping out. It is nice to reach a consensus on a subject like this but if people would rather argue I will just try to avoid checking this thread when it keeps popping up. It is an important topic imho but not really that much to debate.


----------



## LincTex

cowboyhermit said:


> Other than this minute point I think we would pretty much agree on the actual subject at hand, but then again I think most of the people on this thread agree for the most part..


Correct, we are just arguing conceptual semantics at this point.

Remember the phrase: "For all practical purposes..." 



cowboyhermit said:


> It is an important topic imho but not really that much to debate.


We have already covered all pertinent points


----------



## elder

Fence chargers and ignitions use dc which sustains an arc much better than ac. I think all autos now use pulse generators and transformers but originally used an induction coil (not a transformer) and collapsing magnetic field. Old fence chargers used a relay to interupt the current and let the field collapse, I haven't looked at modern ones to see how they work.


----------



## labotomi

elder said:


> Fence chargers and ignitions use dc which sustains an arc much better than ac.


True.

It's easier to maintain the flow of current across an air gap than start it. AC stops 120 times per second (60Hz).


----------



## LincTex

elder said:


> I haven't looked at modern ones to see how they work.


They are so simple it's funny. 
It's just a capacitor charge/discharge and timer circuit.

Charge/release...charge/release. 
Snap.....Snap....Snap.....

It's just like the CDI ignitions that came into vogue in the 70's and 80's, except the timer circuit takes the place of the ignition points.


----------



## kennyeagle13

this is my first post on this forum. and I have a lot to say when it comes to this subject. I don't mean to sound rude and this may come across rude so please forgive me now as im not intending it the way it might sound.

this transfer switch vs. back feeding in hog wash. plain and simple. the guys that work with electricity know there are safe ways to back feed. but it seem pride wont allow them to say so. Bottom line is not everyone has enough money to go buy a over priced transfer swich. im one of them. so here what I do.

*1. walk out side and pull the meter. then go into the breaker panel and turn off the main breaker and turn all the breakers off. *
*(now I have certain breakers color coded to be kept on when the house is plugged into the genset, all others are turned off. and I don't turn any breaker on till the genset is wired up and running).*
*then there will be absolutely no back feeding to the power lines. power may jump poles but its incredibly unlikely to do it twice!!!*


*2. I have a dedicated 50 amp 220 break for my 8000 watt genset. using 1/0 copper wire 4' long. along with my genset having its own breaker.*


*3. I run my welding cord (very heavy duty)with a short twist lock adapter I made from the genset to the dedicated genset outlet. and start my genset.*


*4. I go back to my breaker panel and turn on the genset breaker 1st then all the color coded breakers. and BOOOM!!! I have power!!!!*


*now I have taught my 2 boys and wife to do this and they do it flawlessly everytime. (We have little drills if you will).I even made a laminated print out of the steps and taped it to the breaker box.*

now story time: I live in Michigan and we like many other have had one hard winter which has resulted in a total of 17 days without power. during one of the outages we had a old timer that works for cumsumers energy ( our power company) tell me that my generator setup was just fine even though it wasnt code. and thanked me for going the extra mile to ensure the line mens safty, even though throwing the breaker would have been just fine.
now this isn't the first time iv been told this and iv even had the power company help me in my old house setting up a back feed by pulling the meter and saying "start it up! and listen for other generators to shut off, then turn you genset off and unplug everything before installing the meter".

It really gets to me when people say its all wrong. just because it don't meet the codes exspensive standards. as long as the main is off before you do anything and even pulling the meter to you will be fine. Im glade there some out there that can afford a over priced transfer switch. but not all are that lucky.

also I really think this is a great forum as I hope to learn a lot from everyone one here. im a prepper looking to dive head first into the prepping world as well as going off the grid with my home. thanks guys


----------



## cowboyhermit

Welcome to the forum. Personally I find the formatting in your post a bit hard on the eyes, fwiw.



kennyeagle13 said:


> this is my first post on this forum. and I have a lot to say when it comes to this subject. I don't mean to sound rude and this may come across rude so please forgive me now as im not intending it the way it might sound.
> 
> this transfer switch vs. back feeding in hog wash. plain and simple. the guys that work with electricity know there are safe ways to back feed. but it seem pride wont allow them to say so. Bottom line is not everyone has enough money to go buy a over priced transfer swich. im one of them. so here what I do.
> 
> It really gets to me when people say its all wrong. just because it don't meet the codes exspensive standards. as long as the main is off before you do anything and even pulling the meter to you will be fine. Im glade there some out there that can afford a over priced transfer switch. but not all are that lucky.
> 
> This is where I get a bit confused, a transfer switch is less than $100 and then you don't need to add a breaker. Personally in an emergency I would not hesitate to hook a generator up without a transfer switch in an "emergency", I have in the past. I just don't see the cost being much of a factor.


----------



## kennyeagle13

cowboyhermit said:


> Welcome to the forum. Personally I find the formatting in your post a bit hard on the eyes, fwiw.


sorry about the formatting. around here there way more same with gensets after all these power outages. just for code reason I would do it the right way if I could afford it.


----------



## labotomi

kennyeagle13 said:


> the guys that work with electricity know there are safe ways to back feed. but it seem pride wont allow them to say so.


With me it has nothing to do with pride.

I agree with your statement, but keep in mind that you said "guys that work with electricity". Those aren't the people asking how to do it.

This isn't how to skin a deer or store rice. My opinion is that someone who is asking questions about how to do it probably shouldn't.


----------



## BlackDogWV

I had an electrician friend come out to wire my set-up. I had asked him about a transfer switch and he recommended the plug-in/dedicated breaker route to save some money. He explained, demonstrated and wrote down the process of shutting off the main and other breakers, plugging in to the generator and dedicated box, starting the generator, turning the dedicated breaker on to energize the panel, then switching on other needed/desired breakers. 
It works well and I am confident that it is safe. I will be the only one in my household to handle it.


----------



## kennyeagle13

labotomi said:


> With me it has nothing to do with pride.
> 
> I agree with your statement, but keep in mind that you said "guys that work with electricity". Those aren't the people asking how to do it.
> 
> This isn't how to skin a deer or store rice. My opinion is that someone who is asking questions about how to do it probably shouldn't.


I unserstand what your saying. but there are plenty of people who can do this. its not that hard to do. my son ounce asked me how to change oil in his car, but I didn't say that because hes asking questions means he shouldn't do it.
on the other hand there are some that just cant follow instructions and should operate a can opener. so I do understand where you coming from. I will admit im kinda a jack of all trade and adapt and overcome to what I need to do.
but just because someone needs to know how to do something dosnt mean there not able to. I would rather teach someone to back feed than to teach them to hook up a transfer switch. it just seem to be more direct and less chance for them to mess up.


----------



## kennyeagle13

double post


----------



## smaj100

Same for me. I paid an electrician to run my genset to the breaker panel. Hey gave me the choice transfer switch expensive or a breaker in the panel with step by step how to do it. He even wired a protected 220 receptacle outside of the breaker with a new cord from the Gen to the wall. Cautioning me to ensure I flip the main off to prevent both back feeding and damage to circuits or generator. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Survival Forum mobile app


----------



## slubert

What type of wire should be used to connect the outside generator receptacle to the transfer switch. I am using 10-4 but was told to use 10-3 romex with aground


----------



## LincTex

slubert said:


> What type of wire should be used to connect the outside generator receptacle to the transfer switch. I am using 10-4


That will depend on the wattage rating of your generator.


----------



## TheLazyL

labotomi said:


> .. My opinion is that someone who is asking questions about how to do it probably shouldn't.


Well, we all at one time had to ask, "How do you...?" That's how we learn, become professionals or die young. 

It's usually those that don't ask and do it anyway are the ones cause the trouble.


----------



## labotomi

TheLazyL said:


> Well, we all at one time had to ask, "How do you...?" That's how we learn, become professionals or die young.
> 
> It's usually those that don't ask and do it anyway are the ones cause the trouble.


It's easy to say something like that and be correct in most situations. With the potential consequences of a mistake being so severe, I'll disagree with the your sentiment as well as another persons previously given opinion that it's just like instructing someone on changing the oil in their car.

Any instructions given on this site are available to everyone viewing. Can you be comfortable that everyone who reads it will thoroughly understand as well as be competent to perform the task and not put themselves or utility workers in danger?


----------



## labotomi

kennyeagle13 said:


> I unserstand what your saying. but there are plenty of people who can do this. its not that hard to do. my son ounce asked me how to change oil in his car, but I didn't say that because hes asking questions means he shouldn't do it.


How many people have died as a result of an improper oil change?



kennyeagle13 said:


> on the other hand there are some that just cant follow instructions and should operate a can opener.


Many of those people will read this thread.



kennyeagle13 said:


> I would rather teach someone to back feed than to teach them to hook up a transfer switch. it just seem to be more direct and less chance for them to mess up.


*I'm not sure why you said this. * Do you think I stated something about teaching them to hook up a transfer switch instead of backfeeding?


----------



## LincTex

labotomi said:


> Can you be comfortable that everyone who reads it will thoroughly understand as well as be competent to perform the task and not put themselves or utility workers in danger?


The answer to this should be "no".

I am often thoroughly amazed at the level of inability some people have to learn the right way to do things, even when I have explained it at least three times and I am watching over their shoulder... and they STILL manage to go off on some rabbit rail of thought that defies all logic.


----------



## BlueShoe

I once asked on line how to layout the vent and drain pipes of an added bathroom consisting of 1 toilet, sink and shower. One of the plumbers felt the need to tell me the reason I couldn't be doing it myself is because she had to go thru an apprentice program for years to learn everything that is needed to become a plumber. I didn't ask or need to know how to become a plumber. Maybe she felt threatened or maybe felt I was limited by her limitations. 

I didn't need to know how to plumb a commercial building. I just needed to know the layout of the most common of fittings for venting and draining 3 fixtures in a 5'x7' bath. If illegals can do it, that must mean she can't teach it and should refrain.


----------



## partdeux

slubert said:


> What type of wire should be used to connect the outside generator receptacle to the transfer switch. I am using 10-4 but was told to use 10-3 romex with aground


use big enough wire

how many amps, what voltage, how far, what kind of wire?


----------



## kennyeagle13

labotomi said:


> How many people have died as a result of an improper oil change?
> 
> its not how many people died of a oil change rather than how many people have killed a $20k car because of a oil change. there investment.
> 
> Many of those people will read this thread.
> 
> correct so lets make this thread usfull and maybe post a good diagram of how to back feed a house safely. rather than tell them it should be done and them go do it anyway. and burn there home to the ground or kill someone or them selves....
> 
> *I'm not sure why you said this. *Do you think I stated something about teaching them to hook up a transfer switch instead of backfeeding?


no not at all. I just stated that because in todays age there are some many DIY people due to hard times, that I know when they look into back feeding vs. a transfer switch there not only going to choose the cheapest but there going to choose the easier of the 2.

my whole point to this is this:

trying to say back feeding is unsafe is rubbish. if done proper it just as safe as a transfer switch. 
forums are full of information, lots of DIY info on this one and many others. whether it be cars/houses/boats/homesteading. you name it. people seek out information on these sites. so I would rather give good information. theres always someone who seems to say its not code so don't do it. or just take the easy way out and say no it cant be done.

id rather give the full explination to a point where everyone can understand it.

bottom line:

is back feeding code. no

can it be just as safe as a transfer switch. yes.

can you burn your house down install either yourself. yes.

it all a matter of proper information being givin to the person trying to do it.


----------



## kennyeagle13

LincTex said:


> The answer to this should be "no".
> 
> I am often thoroughly amazed at the level of inability some people have to learn the right way to do things, even when I have explained it at least three times and I am watching over their shoulder... and they STILL manage to go off on some rabbit rail of thought that defies all logic.


this has been the long lasting problem of any forum. you cant garentee anything anywhere. I cant garentee that if I told someone on her how to install a transfer switch to code. that they wouldn't burn there house down because the installed it wrong. so I guess all forums should go threw all there DIY write-ups and delete them.

no DIY solar panels
no DIY change your brakes threads
no DIY xbox repairs

the information on forums have always been use at you own risk. the only thing you can do is be sure your giving out good detailed information and dumb it down so even the common guy without a engineering degree can understand ha ha ha.

this has become and age where people do thing themselves. a lot just cant afford to fork out the cash to pay someone in these days and ages.


----------



## labotomi

kennyeagle13 said:


> trying to say back feeding is unsafe is rubbish. if done proper it just as safe as a transfer switch.


Nice qualifying statement. "IF DONE PROPERLY, is is just as safe as a transfer switch." There's not many things that are unsafe if "DONE PROPERLY"



kennyeagle13 said:


> forums are full of information, lots of DIY info on this one and many others. whether it be cars/houses/boats/homesteading. you name it. people seek out information on these sites. so I would rather give good information. theres always someone who seems to say its not code so don't do it. or just take the easy way out and say no it cant be done.


I have not said anything against doing it because of code requirements nor have I stated that it can't be done so don't imply that I have by including this in your reply.



kennyeagle13 said:


> id rather give the full explination to a point where everyone can understand it.


I highly doubt that everyone will understand it

http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f16/generator-house-hookup-253/index8.html#post145802

Here's the OP


> I've been told that you can plug a portable generator into one of your homes power outlets and it will power the homes other outlets.
> 
> The procedure was this: Run a line from the generator to one of your homes outlets after cutting the external power off at the homes main power box. You can then use the outlets in your home as long as you don't exceed your generators power rating.
> 
> Does anyone know for sure (especially one of you electricians) if this is true?


Simple enough, Right?

People responded that it's ok if the incoming main breaker to the house is opened first and most agreed. Since the OP stated outlet"s", he probably is talking about the 120V distribution. My home has 15A breakers feeding the receptacles. My generator has 20A breakers feeding the receptacles. Using the generator via suicide cables, I have the potential to supply 33% more current through my house wiring before tripping an overload device. That has the potential to increase the heat in the wiring by 1089% (I^2*R). Will that cause a problem? I can't say because it would be different in every situation.

Or... someone does this using your instructions and then they decide to do the same thing using the other receptacle on the generator. Do you see the problem with doing this?


----------



## elder

Most modern homes are wired with 12/2 w/ground Romex so there should be no overheated wiring. 

I think there are still 15A receptacles out there, I know the cheaper ones used to be. A good check would be to feel the receptacle being fed to see if it's warm. I had one that used to feel warm with a quartz heater plugged into it, but no real problem.


----------



## kennyeagle13

labotomi said:


> Nice qualifying statement. "IF DONE PROPERLY, is is just as safe as a transfer switch." There's not many things that are unsafe if "DONE PROPERLY"
> 
> well yeah. so is putting gas in a lawn mower for god sakes. why do you try to make this out to be harder than what it is. electrical is not rocket sience. in more advanced situations yes it is extreamly difficult. but not back feeding and remembering to turn you breaker of and pull your meter... again teach teach teach
> 
> I have not said anything against doing it because of code requirements nor have I stated that it can't be done so don't imply that I have by including this in your reply.
> 
> im not trying to imply anything!!!! im simply stating that a lot of the arguments that get thrown out on this subject are that its out of code. or you can kill a lineman. or burn down you home. im speaking in general. I urge you to teach. with your 20 years exsperiance it would be very very helpful coming from someone like yourself. theres more than one way to cook a chicken. same with powering your home in a emergency.
> 
> I highly doubt that everyone will understand it.
> 
> sure a lot of people would. not everyone. but more than your whiling to give credit to. just don't go nutz on the details or you will loose people bud
> 
> http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f16/generator-house-hookup-253/index8.html#post145802
> 
> Here's the OP
> Simple enough, Right?
> 
> People responded that it's ok if the incoming main breaker to the house is opened first and most agreed. Since the OP stated outlet"s", he probably is talking about the 120V distribution. My home has 15A breakers feeding the receptacles. My generator has 20A breakers feeding the receptacles. Using the generator via suicide cables, I have the potential to supply 33% more current through my house wiring before tripping an overload device. That has the potential to increase the heat in the wiring by 1089% (I^2*R). Will that cause a problem? I can't say because it would be different in every situation.
> 
> very true. that's why I desided to go 220 threw the breaker box with the main off and meter pulled. and be selective on with breakers are on.
> 
> Or... someone does this using your instructions and then they decide to do the same thing using the other receptacle on the generator. Do you see the problem with doing this?


yes I do.

look your obviously taking this way more personal than its intended. your the one saying that if you have no schooling that you shouldn't try any of this. and I understand some of it has to do with job security.

but because you don't have 20 years in this field don't mean that it can be done. I wired my own house to code and had it sighned off and inspected. no problem and I didn't even graduate high school. lol.

point here is if you so concerned then why not take the time and make this thread worth while and teach rather than bash the idea. im sure the electric company guy that told me the way I did it was safe had over 30 years.

relax. im not trying to get personal or directly bash you. I am how ever saying that it can be done safe and is cheaper. to do than a transfer switch. sorry if im so direct and straight forward. but that's the way I am. and I will fight to get a point across that I know is right.

no matter what you or I say on here theres going to be someone come along and ******* the job. its nature of the beast.

to all other I am working on a simple diagram and instructions to back feed your home in a safe mannor. I may even do a youtube video. just to try and show how for those who are going to do it anyway.


----------



## kennyeagle13

this is darn close to how im setup. you can buy a lot of these parts from any electrical store.


----------



## labotomi

kennyeagle13 said:


> look your obviously taking this way more personal than its intended.


That's hardly the case. I disagree with your opinion. My first concern is safety, both at home and work. I have to deal with dangerous situations for myself and those under me on a daily basis. I never assess a situation thinking as if things go right. I assess it thinking about everything that could go wrong. I will always err on the side of caution because I want those people and myself to go home everyday without an injury.



kennyeagle13 said:


> your the one saying that if you have no schooling that you shouldn't try any of this. and I understand some of it has to do with job security.


Job security? You've either made another incorrect assumption or are implying that my reasons for my stance are selfish. Your MO seems to be one of indirectly implying things about others so other readers will be biased against them.

I'm far enough removed from residential work that I don't even feel comfortable working on it. Whether someone does there own work or hires someone else has zero effect on my job.



kennyeagle13 said:


> but because you don't have 20 years in this field don't mean that it can be done.


Once again... Who said it couldn't be done? Please point them out.



kennyeagle13 said:


> I wired my own house to code and had it sighned off and inspected. no problem and I didn't even graduate high school. lol.


Congrats... on the wiring and inspection part.



kennyeagle13 said:


> relax. im not trying to get personal or directly bash you.


 You seem to be the one ranting. I'm disagreeing... The only issue with you that I have is the pointed insinuations.



kennyeagle13 said:


> I am how ever saying that it can be done safe and is cheaper. to do than a transfer switch.


I don't disagree. I just know that many aren't going to understand what they're doing and therefore have a high potential to do something wrong



kennyeagle13 said:


> no matter what you or I say on here theres going to be someone come along and ******* the job. its nature of the beast.


There will be more attempts if it's encouraged. Many who wouldn't feel comfortable doing this (rightfully do) will now try it because it sounds so easy. Some of those people will see potential shortcuts and end up with a less than safe setup.


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## Tirediron

Wiring almost anything can be simple, but it is also one of the most "ill done" things around. Either a person gets it and can and will do it right, thinks they get it and does what ever they think (these are the dangerous ones) or it scares the bejebers out of them and they leave it alone. (and the tiny percentage that don't really understand, but follow instructions well enough to do a decent job)

Houses are easy to burn down, chimneys built on 16" centers full of tinder.


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## elder

House wiring is so simple and basic that it does make it easy to make a mistake. One I made when wiring my house was to do what electricians often do but I did it without thinking and later blew the plug off the extension cord. I was using a 50ft cord from my temporary pole. I powered a room by using jumpers, female cord plug to receptacle, but forgot that they weren't mirror images. Later as I added circuits to the bus I blew the plug off the cord as my scheme had black to white rather than black to black.


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## kennyeagle13

labotomi said:


> That's hardly the case. I disagree with your opinion. My first concern is safety, both at home and work. I have to deal with dangerous situations for myself and those under me on a daily basis. I never assess a situation thinking as if things go right. I assess it thinking about everything that could go wrong. I will always err on the side of caution because I want those people and myself to go home everyday without an injury.
> 
> Job security? You've either made another incorrect assumption or are implying that my reasons for my stance are selfish. Your MO seems to be one of indirectly implying things about others so other readers will be biased against them.
> 
> I'm far enough removed from residential work that I don't even feel comfortable working on it. Whether someone does there own work or hires someone else has zero effect on my job.
> 
> Once again... Who said it couldn't be done? Please point them out.
> 
> Congrats... on the wiring and inspection part.
> 
> You seem to be the one ranting. I'm disagreeing... The only issue with you that I have is the pointed insinuations.
> 
> I don't disagree. I just know that many aren't going to understand what they're doing and therefore have a high potential to do something wrong
> 
> There will be more attempts if it's encouraged. Many who wouldn't feel comfortable doing this (rightfully do) will now try it because it sounds so easy. Some of those people will see potential shortcuts and end up with a less than safe setup.


I apologize if this seams to be a rant. or if I have mistaken some of what you have posted. I really hate it when someone gets on a site and starts pushing that there way is the only way. maybe I have mistaken that you have done so.

how ever facts are facts. theres problebly more homes out there that are being back fed than using a transfer switch at least the area im from lol. knowing this I f feel it better to put the word out on how to do it safely rather than them doing it in a unsafe mannor and getting hurt.

odd but sad story. just last night I went out on a fire call where someone had wind generator installed, a complete professional job by a professional company. long story short something malfunctioned in the switching during the night and the result was the house burnt down. sad thing. I live in a huge farm community with a lot of this sort going on now in days.

sorry if yall took me the wrong way.


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## TheLazyL

kennyeagle13 said:


> this is darn close to how im setup. you can buy a lot of these parts from any electrical store.


I like the safety plate on your circuit box. Can't flip the Generator breaker on without kill the main breaker first.


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## LincTex

kennyeagle13 said:


> .... complete professional job by a professional company. ... the house burnt down. sad thing.


Crapola... that stinks.

Professional?!?!?


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## tinker

Hi,

Thanks for some of your insights. As an electrician's assistant for several years I like to do my own wiring. My biggest gripe with hooking up power to my home has been cost and safety. I have two kids who like to touch and a wife who is used to a push button life. In a pinch I tied in my generator to my heat. I made damn sure the main was off, heating circuit breaker was off, both switches to the heat were off, and then used a home-made interrupter switch at the source. Why? I like to be safe. (Two in the head one in the chest!) 

Here in NY the transfer switches are expensive and with certified installation just double the price. If you look around you can find interlock kits. The ones for my 200 Amp panel from a UL approved maker were $150-250. After looking and looking on line ran across an ad for an UL manufacturer interlock. One guy on Amazon was asking $135. Found the darned thing at Home Depot for $70 (including tax and shipping). (Eaton Mechanical Interlock) Will be adding it to the panel tomorrow morning. Four screws hold it on. 

I look at it this way. I may know how to safely back-feed a generator. My wife could figure it out. I want to make it easy and safe as possible for me and mine. Emergency over, I spent a few bucks ($200 all supplies) to do it safely and it is actually easier. (Learned what I needed to do and did it.)

Stuff happens, you deal with it, and prepare for the next time (learn).


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## tinker

Just installed the manufacturer's transfer switch. 

Was relatively painless. One step that is important is tying down the generator circuit breaker. Kit comes with a simple screw and clip. My 30 amp breaker did not have the hole but if you are careful you can drill between the two breakers and it wont interfere with their function. Kit seems sturdy and is metal. Added all the enclosed stickers and was done. So, up to code and ready for the next hurricane.


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## ram91648

oldasrocks said:


> LOL, I think I like you.
> 
> NO I'm simply, in my confused state, saying that most, if not all, electric companies mandate a physical break in the Circuit. Following rules will keep a person out of trouble. As I said here they say they will pull your meter and you will be blacklisted and never allowed a meter again on their system.
> 
> In past yrs I've done the same circuiting through the dryer outlet.


Like the other poster said, "you just gotta be right " but, you're not. By the way, your statement about pulling the meter permanently and blacklisting them is so ridiculous that I can't believe I'm responding to it but, it is illegal by federal statute to deprive someone of necessities of life for any reason. They may need to abide by certain rules but they cannot permanently take away their power source......"PERIOD".


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## zombieresponder

ram91648 said:


> Like the other poster said, "you just gotta be right " but, you're not. By the way, your statement about pulling the meter permanently and blacklisting them is so ridiculous that I can't believe I'm responding to it but, it is illegal by federal statute to deprive someone of necessities of life for any reason. They may need to abide by certain rules but they cannot permanently take away their power source......"PERIOD".


Electricity is not a necessity for human life. If it were, the species would not have survived for thousands of years without it.

Please quote this federal statute.


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## TheLazyL

zombieresponder said:


> Electricity is not a necessity for human life. If it were, the species would not have survived for thousands of years without it....


True.

Around these parts the local government believes it is a necessity. I think that is what Ram was referring to.

A few government agencies frown on off grid homes because the life style runs contrary to the "How will the sheeple be safe without the government's over-site" mentality.

Besides. Why get a burr under our saddle over a year old post?


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## readytogo

*Corporate America buys and sells goverment.*



TheLazyL said:


> True.
> 
> Around these parts the local government believes it is a necessity. I think that is what Ram was referring to.
> 
> A few government agencies frown on off grid homes because the life style runs contrary to the "How will the sheeple be safe without the government's over-site" mentality.
> 
> Besides. Why get a burr under our saddle over a year old post?


http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/article17474102.html


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## LincTex

zombieresponder said:


> Electricity is not a necessity for human life. If it were, the species would not have survived for thousands of years without it. Please quote this federal statute.


Or even more recently. REA, the "Rural Electrification Act" brought power to farms that never had power, right up until the 50's and 60's. Some farms never signed on! (I knew of a few when I was a kid).

My dad remembers clearly when AC power was brought to the farm in the late 1950's.

UNFORTUNATELY, many city "codes" state that if you aren't connected to grid power, your home will be condemned and subject to forfeiture - whom the city will then claim... and then sell the house to someone who WILL use grid power.


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## oldasrocks

ram91648 said:


> Like the other poster said, "you just gotta be right " but, you're not. By the way, your statement about pulling the meter permanently and blacklisting them is so ridiculous that I can't believe I'm responding to it but, it is illegal by federal statute to deprive someone of necessities of life for any reason. They may need to abide by certain rules but they cannot permanently take away their power source......"PERIOD".


Well move down to Missouri and try it. If i wanted to bother I could go get you a printed statement the electric company puts out that says just that.

The object here is to protect the line workers. Go say ten Hail Mary's and 20 Our Fathers for you penance.


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