# Surviving Alone .



## readytogo

This forum is like a small town dinner, everybody knows each other and the conversation can turn from politics to religion to domestic affairs at the drop of a napkin, is a good feeling, but are we all going to behaved this way after a shtf event?, are we all going to help each other?, to protect each other from outsiders trying to do harm?, the force is in the unity if we allow a group of criminals to attack our neighbor and do nothing soon we could be next, if we bury ourselves in our basements in the hope of been bypass by the criminals we could end up burying our hopes for survival, we need to take a hard look at the way we think and act ,many talk about turning their homes or homestead into a fortress for the sole purpose of defending it from outsiders when we know that a moving army will bridge any structure ,I have witness a few arm individual cover a street block from intruders during a shtf event the same for a apartment complex, a few guarding the front and back doors for the protection of many. We need to reconsider our idea of surviving alone and start thinking of helping each other if we expect to survive at all.


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## mosquitomountainman

It's prudent to put together neighbors, friends and relatives for mutual aid. A lot will come naturally if we work at building relationships in our community. One weakness I see is our own independence. We've traveled clear across the nation to meet others on this board yet the only Montanan (even though there are several in the area) who has followed through on a face-to-face is Fattire. We've been blown off by everyone else. We should be getting together on a regional basis and forming friendships and finding ways to communicate with each other should TSHTF.


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## Geek999

If you are referring to this forum, there are members here that I never want to meet. They're on my ignore list. For that reason there is a certain level of OPSEC I maintain here, though for the most part I figure distance means members here will be irrelevant once SHTF. If the Internet goes down the preparations, and discussion thereof, will be concluded.

As for neighbors, etc. I expect most of them to be unprepared and to starve as a result. The best news for them would be if nothing sufficiently severe happens during their lifetimes.


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## Tirediron

In my own experience a lot of people who will ride out a shtf just fine don't consider them selves preppers or survivalists, they just have their crap together and will weather the storm just fine. It is hard to live in an extreme climate and not be prepared for surprizes, although some people manage it.


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## hiwall

It would be great to have a good group for mutual defense and trading, etc. 
The main problem I see with that is who decides who to include in the group? Who to kick out of the group? How to tell if the group contains half of the people you are set to defend against?
Sorry I am just not very trusting.


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## Tirediron

I think most groups will fail, because everyone will think that they contribute more or are more important than the others. bartering communities will fair better. But people will need to be vigilant for would be kings and dictators, share you heavier precious metals with these vultures :beercheer:


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## Geek999

hiwall said:


> It would be great to have a good group for mutual defense and trading, etc.
> The main problem I see with that is who decides who to include in the group? Who to kick out of the group? How to tell if the group contains half of the people you are set to defend against?
> Sorry I am just not very trusting.


Well, in my case I expect to be in my home, with my preps, and I am the head of the household so I decide who is in the group beyond immediate family. If I have made my decisions well, there will not be much disagreement and there will never be an occasion to kick someone out. If I decide poorly then I have the problem you suggest.

So what it comes down to is do you trust your own ability to judge who you want to be in a group with?


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## lilmissy0740

MMM, I too would like to build a community across the nation. A lot of people travel for work and heck something can happen even on vacation. I think it would be terrific to know if something happens you have somewhere to go for a few days if need be to get your mind in order to make it home.

We know a lot of people who think they are preppers. Plus we have those, that say they can kill deer, etc.uugh. So I also agree, not sure a group will last. Unless the group already has lived very close with each other, including working together. 

Not sure if you will be able to trust anyone, even those that you can, will you?


Sent from my iPad using Survival Forum


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## tsrwivey

The concept of a group of preppers with different skills coming together for mutual aid sounds wonderful. In reality, most people today are selfish & lack relationship skills (see the divorce rate?). I think if you don't know the people in your group well, have a long history of getting along well together, & have a deep genuine concern for eachother's well-being, it's not likely to work. IMHO, your group needs to consist only of family you really like as friends & friends that are like family. Anyone else should be a barter relationship only.


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## readytogo

I based my posting on my own experiences, as a child in a tropical island in the middle of the Caribbean we suffered many hurricanes, much damage, never witness any looting but neighbors from everywhere came to help in force, we knew everybody by name or nickname, this was in the city, in the country family members came together to help the most affected, no one complain and God there was a lot of food, the women folks make sure that the men eat good. I have lived in rural America, Texas and Oklahoma, as a soldier many years ago, and I also witness a more open neighbor to neighbor friendship, maybe because we were soldiers but I remember never having to close my doors till nighttime. Now here n the big city and living in the same home same good neighborhood with just about the same neighbors is a different thing, everybody is lock-up with the ac and flat screen TV on and you hardly know who is alive or dead and during the few shtf events that have hit the area they do come out to see what you are cooking or what you got that they don`t have, I’m the youngest one of all my old neighbors and the only thing they usually have is bottle water,luckly we are surrounded by major supermarkets and there is always some cat food available. We need to be more open with each other a hello or good morning is not going to kill us; yes we all have a rear end for a neighbor but who knows he/she may be the one that comes to our rescue one day.


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## fteter

In hard times, I see three groups:

1. My family, which includes very close friends. We all have the same mindset, we all prep as we are able, and we'd all give our lives for each other if it comes to that.
2. My neighborhood. Good people overall. Most of us would cooperate and work with each other. Of course, there would be a few bad apples in that bunch, but those will work out one way or another over time.
3. Everybody else. The positive relationships here would be based on barter. The negative relationships...well, we'll have to be vigilant about those...'nuff said.


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## tsrwivey

readytogo said:


> I based my posting on my own experiences, as a child in a tropical island in the middle of the Caribbean we suffered many hurricanes, much damage,


A short term localized scenario is a lot different, & you're right, you'd see a lot of neighbor helping neighbor, sharing resources, etc. you will also have a lot of help from people in unaffected areas that, at least in this country, will be there soon with help & supplies. Things are completely different in a long term nationalized disaster, that meal I give to a stranger may be one I need to feed my kid in 6 months. That neighbor even knowing I have supplies may become a security risk.


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## Viking

readytogo said:


> We need to be more open with each other a hello or good morning is not going to kill us; yes we all have a rear end for a neighbor but who knows he/she may be the one that comes to our rescue one day.


A few miles toward town we have a family of Royal rear ends and I have to say that I doubt very much that they will even take care of their own, anyone with any sense in a shtf situation should take care of these people at first site before they become a problem for the next family. More than once I've heard of them stealing things from a persons property right after there being a death in that family. My good neighbors and I have talked about this more than a few times, we understand the danger of not being vigilant about this "Rear end" group.


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## BillM

*My plan*

My plan is to be vigilant, flexible, and wise.

Prior preparations increase future options but no one can anticipate every scenario .

Decisions must always be made based on the basis of current information .

You can't possibly make them all ahead of time.


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## mosquitomountainman

In the history of the word we've seen many large scale famines, plagues, and man-made and natural catastrophes. In almost every case it was a community effort that prevailed. Unless an event ends all human life we will see the same type of cooperation among the survivors. It's the only way the human race can survive.

We've seen looting and crime in some places after disasters* but these are places where the general populace is not armed* and they usually confined themselves to destroying their own homes and businesses. Those doing it are often totally dependent upon others for their daily livelihood/handout. Stay away from places like that. If you live somewhere like that then you should move as your first act of preparing. But my guess is that most of us live where more rational people prevail.

Gun ownership is a big issue IMO. There's a lot of truth to the quip that an armed society is a polite society. If the people are not trusted with guns then that tells me a lot about the people themselves. These liberal "utopias" are generally the hell-holes of the nation and should be avoided.

Readytogo has posted some excellent stuff (IMO) from his personal experiences. I really believe that he's on the right track here as well. Shut down the computer and television and get to know your neighbors. None of them are perfect but then neither are we. We've isolated ourselves so much in our modern society that many of us no longer know how to interact on a personal level with our neighbors and communities. That will hurt us in the future.

It's true that there are a lot of scumbags in the world but most people still have some decency left in them. I don't really think the thieves and scumbags will last long in a post SHTF world.


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## TheLazyL

Viking said:


> A few miles toward town we have a family of Royal rear ends ... heard of them stealing things from a persons property right after there being a death in that family....


Suggest that they be dealt with now with a organized solution instead of when your too busy trying to survive and can't watch your back.


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## Jewel

Wise indeed BillM.

I've always believed in community and it usually bites me on the southern end. Recently I tried bringing our rural neighbors together in a small email group, for SHTF purposes but also for barn raisings, potlucks, yard sales, tarding and bartering and generally helping one another and being a community. We're pretty rural and all we really have is one another. I personally spoke with over 30 people. Every one of them went on and on about it being a great idea, it's what we need, we're so happy to join ..... 1 person joined willingly and I badgered 2 others to join. That was 4 months ago and I've not heard a thing from the others. This was my second try. I tried the same things about 7 years ago.

Years before that we tried to build an intentional community. It would have worked great if a few had done all the work for the whole *-*

I don't want to do it alone but ...


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## LincTex

Jewel said:


> Years before that we tried to build an intentional community. It would have worked great if a few had done all the work for the whole


What's really sad is:

*If there's no cooperating "before"...

....There'll be no cooperating "after", either...*


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## Viking

LincTex said:


> What's really sad is:
> 
> *If there's no cooperating "before"...
> 
> ....There'll be no cooperating "after", either...*


It'll likely be worse than no cooperation, as some of those people will be looking to increase their survival supplies. It's not going to be a pretty sight, but that's just my gut feeling.


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## TheLazyL

Jewel said:


> Wise indeed BillM.
> 
> ...Recently I tried bringing our rural neighbors together in a small email group, for SHTF purposes but also for barn raisings, potlucks, yard sales, tarding and bartering and generally helping one another and being a community...spoke with over 30 people. Every one of them went on and on about it being a great idea, it's what we need, we're so happy to join ..... 1 person joined willingly and I badgered 2 others to join. ..


Don't feel too bad about your results.

When we were married we lived in a small Town. We would regularly (once or twice a week) get together with a couple of our neighbors to eat, play board games, work on each others houses and take trips together.

Then the children arrived. After school activities, tightened monetary budgets, high school, my career change, children's marriages, Wife and I moving. And our former neighbors went thru the same life cycle. Today about once or twice a year we take the time to visit our former neighbors.


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## Wikkador

strength in numbers is a valid point but any collaborative efforts with "strangers" can have dire consequences when if happen upon the wrong kind of people. Helping and working with Family and Friends is about as far as I am willing to go in a crisis, I have no plans to meet new "friends" while bad things are happening.


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## Woody

Some interesting thoughts in this thread.

I have three groups of folks in my little manufactured home community, four if you include me. Most are preparing for the Rapture, not much else. These folks are not armed, don't like weapons of any kind. Good family folks though and have enough on hand to keep themselves going for a week... 10 day disaster. They cook meals at home and will be easy prey.

Second group is the clueless zombie group. These are the folks who, at the first hint of a storm coming, are at the store buying two shopping carts of stuff that they will end up throwing out. They buy enough dairy products alone to fill two empty refrigerators! They don't usually cook, eat all their meals out. Some might be armed but have never or maybe once, shot a weapon. These folks are prey also.

Next we have the good old boys network. They are armed, hunt, have provisions at home and that panic shopping trip is to stock up on beer. All I have met are good, down to earth folks. But push come to shove, they will be looking for prey.

Then me. When the storm is predicted I head to the store to people watch. I am always amazed at the amount of perishable stuff folks buy. I have protection, am familiar with it and keep enough supplies on hand to last me a long time. I am in no need of looking for prey, I am looking to avoid being prey.

I plan to survive alone. Well, the puppy and I. If I had to, which group would I side with? I would hate to think that I would ever drop my morals and join for a group looking for prey... but...Would I rather become prey?

I have thought about my community and how easy it would be to defend. Two entrances, half a mile apart, with a main loop road and short roads off that. Swamp on one side, lots of woods on the other and nothing but land at the back end. An invading force would have a good trek to invade us and then, it is only us there. From a logistics point of view, it would cost them more to get to us than they would ever get out of us. We are also far enough off the beaten path to not be a prime target of raids or road blocks. Plenty of major roads far enough away from us to where access could be cut off easier. The prime areas for any group to raid are south of Raleigh and Durham, not north.

That doesn't mean my community would not band together. But, from all the HOA meetings I have attended, it is very unlikely. People can 'stand their ground' and fight about some really trivial crap.


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## Jewel

TheLazyL said:


> Don't feel too bad about your results.
> 
> When we were married we lived in a small Town. We would regularly (once or twice a week) get together with a couple of our neighbors to eat, play board games, work on each others houses and take trips together.
> 
> Then the children arrived. After school activities, tightened monetary budgets, high school, my career change, children's marriages, Wife and I moving. And our former neighbors went thru the same life cycle. Today about once or twice a year we take the time to visit our former neighbors.


Is there anyway to get back to that for you and yours? It would probably be worth the work to have it back. and your neighbors might be thinking the same thing


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## Cotton

Interesting read. One point I always consider on this subject, one that is rarely brought up in these discussions, casualties, among my family, my group, my neighbors. It’s going to happen when food and medicine begin to run out, either from within or from outsiders, an ugly subject.  

This life is not static, not in peace and certainly not when SHTF. I really like mosquitomountainman’s quote “the one that is the most adaptable to change”. I’m sure the following sentiment has been expressed countless times even before there were bullets “the battle plan goes out the window when the first bullet is fired” or arrow or rock thrown! Since my SHTF plan is in essence a battle plan it’s a concept I think about often.

I enjoy the walking dead show. Just fiction… but is it? Meaning history is full of similar stories when societies are in chaos. Members of a group die, refuges destroyed, people spilt apart, come together again, new members join, more die.

Change is a concept that is a part of all my preps


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## Jewel

LincTex said:


> What's really sad is:
> 
> *If there's no cooperating "before"...
> 
> ....There'll be no cooperating "after", either...*


very sad, but very likely. Although I'm sure some will find the energy to cooperate with other twits to try and take what they want.


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## Jewel

Cotton, do you know about wild harvesting? Food and medicinals will still likely be scarce at times and in places but if we can learn to hunt and gather then we have a whole new pantry to shop from. If there's a nuclear winter or some such then that's not an option but with most events it will be 

It can seem intimidating but it's easy to start. That includes gathering wild yeast, which makes wonderful breads. And using wild fruits to make your onw vinegar, stinging nettle as rennet for cheese, etc etc. Learn where the vitamins are like C in rose hips and Juniper virginiana berries (common red cedar).


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## HardCider

I don't think one can survive on one's own but trusting others you don't know is suicide. Like other's have said, it's all about a community and that would be in constant flux. I live in a very small, isolated watermen's community. Most of them are related in some way but very independent. We live in a target rich area that everyone is used to living off of. They live on the water and off of the water. Everyone has gear(nets, pots, traps, firearms ect.) and most everyone knows how to use them. I came home the other day and a neighborhood kid was walking down the road heading for the marsh with a shotgun over his shoulder and nobody batted an eye. Try that in main stream U.S.A. Yes there are a few slackers but most have skills. The woman 2 doors down is the head ER nurse at a hospital up the road. Most watermen have carpentry skills, basic electric skills, and common sense. They live by the weather and the tides. There is a weaver and spinner, canners, shuckers and pickers, decoy and boat makers, trappers, mechanics and farmers. When the power goes out, it's no big deal. I do wish I had several hundred pounds of salt and a smokehouse. I'll have to work on that. We hold higher ground for gardens and animals. One way in, one way out(unless by boat). The sea, marsh, fields and timber are our super market. Wild harvest at it's finest. If you are not in the boondocks, I don't know how ya'll cope or survive if all things modern disappear. Kind of glad I live in an area that's a throwback in time. The old ways and skills are still known. Nobody here will go without unless they are an idiot or lazy. Funny thing, nobody here has much money but it isn't all that important. And I don't think it would be hard to pull them together in a crisis. An "us against them" mentality fires up pretty quick. There is a small subculture of those who expect the government to show up with a hand out but we are so rural, outside help wouldn't come and if everything breaks down, they wouldn't last too long any way. They would try to head for the city hours away where they perceive more help is available. They don't look at the land surrounding them as food and safety


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## Cotton

yes Jewel… I know about them. Thank you though for encouragement, we all need it these days. 

I teach classes on wild medicinal and edible plants here at the farm. I harvest and make all the medicines I use, others for family and friends.

In writing about such a dark subject it may have sounded as though I had “given up”… far from it. I just think preps would be incomplete without such scenarios factored in. If not considered, it’s not prepared for. Sorry if my post was misleading.  

Juniper is fascinating… it has far more uses as an antibiotic than for vitamin C. Quote from S. Buhner in Herbal Antibiotics…

“Alcohol extracts if juniper show activity against 57 strains of 24 bacteria species in the following genera: Acinetobacter, Bacillus, Brevundimonas, Brucelia, Enterobacter, Escherichia, Micrococcus, Pseudomonas, Staphytococcus, Xanthomonas…

Uses: The berries for urinary tract infections. The berries or needles of upper respiratory or GI tract infections. The heartwood, roots, bark, berries, or needles for skin infections and infectious dysentery. The essential oil for airborne and upper respiratory infections."

A great source for wild yeast also. The whitish powder on the berries is yeast! :2thumb:


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## Jewel

I wondered with your lovely pooch sitting next to Mullien 

Juniper virginiana in particular is also promising for treating diabetes. Other junipers have different properties. 

The yeast on cedar berries was the first I ever tried, it's abundant here in the Ozarks. But wild yeast is everywhere 

I understand completely about sounding and even feeling darker some times. I actually think it's good for us if, when we snap out of it, we see even more clearly than before.


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## Cotton

A quick side note for folks who don't know the eastern red cedar (juniper) berries Jewel and I mentioned... I took these photo's this morning.

Back to the topic... I don't know how a an individual would survive alone without plant knowledge, or a group for that matter...


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## LincTex

Jewel said:


> The yeast on cedar berries was the first I ever tried, it's abundant here in the Ozarks. But wild yeast is everywhere


I have to research this! 
We have cedar/juniper all over this part of Texas!


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## Viking

LincTex said:


> I have to research this!
> We have cedar/juniper all over this part of Texas!


Here in Oregon there is a lot of juniper on the East side of the Cascade Mountain range where it's somewhat desert like, for many years there was a lumber industry using juniper as well. About the only thing they make out of juniper now is long lasting fence posts. In the times that we go on our trips to Northern Nevada as we get to the other side of the Cascades the first thing I notice is the distinct smell of what can be described as tom cat pee and I realize, oh, it's the juniper trees. In the desert mountains of Nevada you can run across some rather large forest of juniper as well, I suspect that it's what the gold miners used to make cabin roofs and use for firewood due to it being the only type of trees abundant enough for those uses.


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## tc556guy

You HAVE to rely on a group of people around you.
No one goes it alone
You may have the luxury of trying to build a mall group of reliable people ahead of time.
I suspect the biggest population group that can make a decent go of it is a small village of a thousand people or so.
A group that size has a decent cross section of skills with an accumulated supply of stuff to get you through hard times.
You start going over 1000 souls and you start getting too large a group of ne'er do wells who the larger group will have a hard time dealing with.....


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## BillS

readytogo said:


> This forum is like a small town dinner, everybody knows each other and the conversation can turn from politics to religion to domestic affairs at the drop of a napkin, is a good feeling, but are we all going to behaved this way after a shtf event?, are we all going to help each other?, to protect each other from outsiders trying to do harm?, the force is in the unity if we allow a group of criminals to attack our neighbor and do nothing soon we could be next, if we bury ourselves in our basements in the hope of been bypass by the criminals we could end up burying our hopes for survival, we need to take a hard look at the way we think and act ,many talk about turning their homes or homestead into a fortress for the sole purpose of defending it from outsiders when we know that a moving army will bridge any structure ,I have witness a few arm individual cover a street block from intruders during a shtf event the same for a apartment complex, a few guarding the front and back doors for the protection of many. We need to reconsider our idea of surviving alone and start thinking of helping each other if we expect to survive at all.


I consider that idea to be a common myth among preppers: the idea that a group of people in one area will defend themselves when almost nobody is prepared. I can't feed my unprepared neighbors. I consider any unprepared people to be potentially dangerous. So unless your neighbors are as prepared as you are it won't work.

I refuse to talk to my neighbors about prepping. I've yet to meet a fellow prepper among family, friends, and people I know from church. It would be nice if my neighbors are secret preppers but I seriously doubt that anyone is.


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## BillS

It isn't feasible to have a large group of predatory outsiders. Many more people will have guns than have food. People defending themselves from inside their homes have a natural defensive advantage. A large group of predators will have to make a lot of attacks and take a lot of casualties between finding sufficient stashes of food and other supplies. 

I think the most dangerous groups of people will be families. Such as a husband, wife, and a couple of teenage kids who will all act friendly but be willing to kill at the first opportunity.


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## Jewel

LincTex said:


> I have to research this!
> We have cedar/juniper all over this part of Texas!


Yes, do! It's a wonderful thing. The white powder on the berries of most Junipers, grapes and other berries is wild yeast. I make bread with it often, the flavor isn't consistent (like using brewers yeast but less bitter) but the breads are old world flavored and delicious. It's also the yeast in all my vinegars, vinegar is very easy to make from any fruit scraps except for citrus (i've never tried citrus). I've also successfully used it in mead but I prefer bread or champagne yeast for that.

You can take a little jar and clean paint or toothbrush to the trees and just brush the yeast off into the jar. Certain times of year there will be more yeast and sometimes almost none. I also harvest and use Juniper virginiana (red cedar) berries for food and medicials so i harvest them and their yeast at the same time. It's work but well worth it.

I imagine flat breads will be just about the only bread for most folks after an event, and the stores of yeast have been gone through. But unleavened breads are wonderful too.

After learning about wild yeasts try researching how to culture yogurt with cayenne pepper stems. It's a very good thing.

And then wild vegetable rennet for cheese, stinging nettles


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## Viking

BillS said:


> I consider that idea to be a common myth among preppers: the idea that a group of people in one area will defend themselves when almost nobody is prepared. I can't feed my unprepared neighbors. I consider any unprepared people to be potentially dangerous. So unless your neighbors are as prepared as you are it won't work.
> 
> I refuse to talk to my neighbors about prepping. I've yet to meet a fellow prepper among family, friends, and people I know from church. It would be nice if my neighbors are secret preppers but I seriously doubt that anyone is.


The Bible says, "Trust no man" and that fits all of what you have said. I would suspect that if your neighbors were "secret preppers", you might sense it. My wife and I talk to many people when we're out and about and frequently we have gotten a good feeling about someone, sometimes there is an instant friendship, that being said, we just don't come out and tell our prepping story but given the opportunity, we pass on good info, but never ever what we may or may not do, that's just too risky.


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## Padre

*Template group*



tsrwivey said:


> The concept of a group of preppers with different skills coming together for mutual aid sounds wonderful. In reality, most people today are selfish & lack relationship skills (see the divorce rate?). I think if you don't know the people in your group well, have a long history of getting along well together, & have a deep genuine concern for eachother's well-being, it's not likely to work. IMHO, your group needs to consist only of family you really like as friends & friends that are like family. Anyone else should be a barter relationship only.


I think it is much more likely that such a group comes together AFTER a collapse rather than formally being together before hand.

AFTER a collapse people will quickly realize their need for each other, before the collapse modern society is predicated upon the lie, or rather the artificially created reality, that we don't need each other. That we can be autonomous individuals without concern for others, since we can use green paper to buy what we need. When that green paper fails and people can't even get the supplies needed to make trades for pretty metals worthwhile, people will realize that people are the foundational currency of society.

Personally I develop contacts, encourage lines of thought, facilitate training, look for skill sets, and think about quickly calling people together if the SHTF.

So for instance, yesterday I was with some young bucks, shooting at the range. I provided ammo and instruction. They are poor but they are all slowly purchasing "group" standard gear, despite the fact that their is not formal group, because of my recommendations.

This evening I had a nice late thanksgiving with some SpecOps soliders and a builder.

On real thanksgiving I was with a doctor, two nurses, and an handy man.

Some have food, some have guns, others tools, others skill sets. Those I trust I have brought up to my BOL, and invited them to feel free to join me there if the SHTF.

Between those I have identified as "group" member we have plenty of shooters, medical professionals, farmers, builders, etc.

Granted trick is getting them all moving in the right direction at the right time, but thats why I foster friendships, talk about issues and ideas, and keep inventories of things that people have that I need...not so that I can steal them but so that I can gather up the people who will make suriving and perhaps even thriving possible!

Sure it would be IDEAL to drill and commit to a survival group right now, but if its not then you can lay a good foundation and identify the materials needed to quickly build up a robust group.


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## mosquitomountainman

Padre said:


> I think it is much more likely that such a group comes together AFTER a collapse rather than formally being together before hand.
> 
> AFTER a collapse people will quickly realize their need for each other, before the collapse modern society is predicated upon the lie, or rather the artificially created reality, that we don't need each other. That we can be autonomous individuals without concern for others, since we can use green paper to buy what we need. When that green paper fails and people can't even get the supplies needed to make trades for pretty metals worthwhile, people will realize that people are the foundational currency of society.
> 
> Personally I develop contacts, encourage lines of thought, facilitate training, look for skill sets, and think about quickly calling people together if the SHTF.
> 
> So for instance, yesterday I was with some young bucks, shooting at the range. I provided ammo and instruction. They are poor but they are all slowly purchasing "group" standard gear, despite the fact that their is not formal group, because of my recommendations.
> 
> This evening I had a nice late thanksgiving with some SpecOps soliders and a builder.
> 
> On real thanksgiving I was with a doctor, two nurses, and an handy man.
> 
> Some have food, some have guns, others tools, others skill sets. Those I trust I have brought up to my BOL, and invited them to feel free to join me there if the SHTF.
> 
> Between those I have identified as "group" member we have plenty of shooters, medical professionals, farmers, builders, etc.
> 
> Granted trick is getting them all moving in the right direction at the right time, but thats why I foster friendships, talk about issues and ideas, and keep inventories of things that people have that I need...not so that I can steal them but so that I can gather up the people who will make suriving and perhaps even thriving possible!
> 
> Sure it would be IDEAL to drill and commit to a survival group right now, but if its not then you can lay a good foundation and identify the materials needed to quickly build up a robust group.


This is exactly what we should all be doing: taking inventory of people, skills, and gear, forming relationships and building community, proving leadership. Remember, there will be people taking charge eventually. Might be best to have some respect before that time. If there are no obvious leaders (you!) then be ready to follow someone else ... or be at war with them!


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## hiwall

With careful prep (at least skill sets) it would certainly be possible to survive and even thrive after TEOTWAWKI. Your only con with living alone (or in a small family group) would be security against a larger armed force. Obviously in the 1700's and 1800's there were many such individuals and small families that did just that. All any of us can do is speculate about conditions if something like this happens-none of us really know. It certainly seems likely that small communities would form at some some point but I would predict that it would take some time for that to happen (certainly over a year) but who knows? We can look at the past for clues but have to realize that history can only provide clues, not proof of what we would face. The world is certainly a different place now. The only thing the same now as in the past is man himself and we all know his capacities -both good and bad.


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## mosquitomountainman

In the 1700's and 1800's people gathered in forts and settlements when Indians were on the warpath or outlaws were roaming the area. Those who tried to hold out in remote homesteads died.


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## hiwall

> Those who tried to hold out in remote homesteads died.


I think a couple of loners lived


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## Padre

hiwall said:


> With careful prep (at least skill sets) it would certainly be possible to survive and even thrive after TEOTWAWKI. Your only con with living alone (or in a small family group) would be security against a larger armed force. Obviously in the 1700's and 1800's there were many such individuals and small families that did just that. All any of us can do is speculate about conditions if something like this happens-none of us really know. It certainly seems likely that small communities would form at some some point but I would predict that it would take some time for that to happen (certainly over a year) but who knows? We can look at the past for clues but have to realize that history can only provide clues, not proof of what we would face. The world is certainly a different place now. The only thing the same now as in the past is man himself and we all know his capacities -both good and bad.


We might be the same men today as back then in our basic human psychology, however their is a huge difference between modern man and even our grandparents generation.

The main difference between NOW and the 1700s, 1800s, or even early 1900s is that today the vast majority of people don't know how to live in the 1700s. People throughout history from the year of our Lord until the middle of the previous century knew how to grow food, how to treat wounds, and deal with sicknesses, how to defend themselves, etc. They knew how to do the stuff needed to survive. Without anyone telling them or prepackaging things for them.

In truth, those in the third world largely still do still know how to live (literally) without the comforts of home! We, however, in the West, do not! Thus the shear panic of not just war or violence or anarchy, but a complete and total paradigm shift, can be no less than catastrophic.

I can not imagine a real collapse in the west which was any thing less than weeks of the type of violence that can only come from desperation and utter lawlessness.

That is why I believe you will need a group to survive and thriv in the long term, and since small communities are ineveitable, and useful, I do not know why someone would reject community based survival wholesale.


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## Jewel

Padre said:


> The main difference between NOW and the 1700s, 1800s, or even early 1900s is that today the vast majority of people don't know how to live in the 1700s. People throughout history from the year of our Lord until the middle of the previous century knew how to grow food, how to treat wounds, and deal with sicknesses, how to defend themselves, etc. They knew how to do the stuff needed to survive. Without anyone telling them or prepackaging things for them.


I agree completely. This is why it's so important to teach (and continue learning). To encourage a simpler, less dependent, more hands on life now.

And, while it is harder to do things the old ways, it's not as hard as some people make it seem. More so, it's healthier and more wholesome, in my opinion.


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## mosquitomountainman

One of the major things making it more difficult too live an 18th/19th century lifestyle is the design of homes, businesses and cities. Just try living without electricity, running water or forced air heat/AC in a modern home. Modern homes have been built to be totally dependent on modern technologies. Just look at the differences in design in homes built in the early 20th century regarding heating/cooling using coal fired furnaces without forced air. Ever wonder what those windows above doors and the high ceilings were for?

Have you ever tried living for a week without a functioning sewer system? The old Westerns where the cook stepped outside the cook shack and tossed out a pan of old dishwater were Hollywood myths. If you do that for a couple of weeks the ground becomes covered with bits and pieces of old food and begins to stink. You'll run out of clean places to walk and you'll draw all kinds of insects and other critters to your open pit sewer. 

Porta potties and chamber pots work for a bit but after a week or so ... then what? Do you have a safe place to dump the waste? Do you know how to compost it? Do you have a pit toilet? (And what is your neighbor doing with his waste?)

Maybe you have a fireplace but do you have wood to last and a way to get/cut more? Can you haul it? What about starting the fire after a month or so of living that way? How many rooms will it heat without fans to circulate the air? That sprawling, ranch style, home with small windows and dark rooms and long hallways is going to be a difficult place to live on long, cold winter nights

Have you ever taken a bath or shower using stored water? How about washing dishes or even clothing? Do you have a long term way of cooking? Using or storing leftovers? Ever tried it for a month or longer?

Lots of things to think about if you unplug (voluntarily or involuntarily) from the "grid" and all that entails for long term living in an 18th century world.


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## forluvofsmoke

*Small Groups/Lone Survivor: Security*

Low numbers, even if housed in a compound, are no match for an under-prepared individual, who just happens to be well-versed in the 50 cal (or whatever his/her favorite long-range caliber happens to be). Those with an opportunistic nature can and will be very patient, waiting and planning for days...weeks. Just step into the light at night (and don't forget night-vision scopes), out of the shadows during daylight, open a gate or door, and, regardless of his/her motives (hungry children drive people to do outrageous acts of inhumanity) someone is going down. Do they just want your food, or to take over your location and everything in it? Doesn't really matter what they want...he/she is there, and you are standing between them and what they want...they want you gone...out of their way...erased.

Want to send out a scout or three to flank and track him down? Take the bait...that's just what he wants. He already has the advantage, and will see/know you're coming...he's planned, back-tracked and found additional ambush sites to continue his (seeming) withdrawal, while he works on further reducing your numbers (it's a do or die situation, which he planned on carrying out)...long before he ever fired his first shot. After the first shot is fired on you/your group, the snow-ball is rolling, and you'll never see or hear that first shot coming. A single shooter is disciplined and vigilant...the "other" silent and unseen killer.

Site security could be far-reaching, depending on the environment, and difficult to achieve without enough skilled/experienced personnel holding the proper weapons, combined with endless discipline, to match. Know your BOL/BIL and the surrounding area very well...better than anyone else...then you can plan an adopt counter-measures in advance. As with everything, remain adaptable and flexible, to change as needs become apparent.

I know this may have read as a bit sadistic, but try to get into the mind of a sniper for a moment while you ponder what it would take for a single shooter to over-take a group of, say 20-30. Not an easy task for the average human. However, given the situation, when you're loosing numbers from your group, if you don't eliminate the threat, you die. If you don't have well planned and executed counter-measures, you die. Just remember, this shooter has made it his/her life's work to eliminate you, and has put some time and thought into making your group's lives a misery...a living hell..wondering who is next on the list, and when...all the while remaining out of your site and/or reach. Terrorist tactics can give priceless results for dividing and conquering.


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## hiwall

Pretty hard to stop a dedicated dry-gulcher.


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## LincTex

mosquitomountainman said:


> Ever tried it for a month or longer?


This should almost be a "Prepared Society" prerequisite.

It's amazing what a person can learn in a month - but it probably should be in 4 stages so the learning curve isn't "quite" so steep!:

1 day
3-4 days
1-2 weeks
1 month


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## *Andi

mosquitomountainman said:


> Ever tried it for a month or longer?


Yes and while it was not easy it can be done ...


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## Cotton

That’s my mantra – do it now, test your skills, knowledge and gear to the extreme. Now we have the luxury of calling “time-out” and starting over if there is a mistake, safety can be factored in. When the wheel come off the wagon there will be no timeouts, just live or die.


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## Jewel

This is my own personal point. Do it and live it, now while it's easy. I've lived over a year without power, no electricity, solar, wind, propane etc etc etc.. No lights is the easy part.

Lagoons are my favored system here but I only know that by trying different septic systems to see what works best for our land, situation, us....

I think it was this thread that I posted about learning to cut down trees with an ax. I think that some folks assumed I didn't have a chainsaw or didn't know how to use one. Assumptions can be dangerous, but I use them to my advantage. 

If you have a cow or any sort of equine it can be taught to plow, haul, pull etc.. But don't assume that because you see a horse pulling a buggy that it's an easy thing to teach. It depends on the animal and can take quite a bit of time and patience but well worth it. I don't have a wagon or cart so I find it easier to have my mare drag out the downed tree and then we use the saw to cut it up near the house.

Water is always a huge worry, or at least should be. I think most people, even long time preppers, have no idea how much water they really need and how little they can actually live on. Most places tell you that you Have to have 1 gal per day per person. This is not true and I'm living proof of it. I survived on much less and did not exist in filth. On the other hand, same said people believe 1 gal a day per person will allow them to live the same as they did when the water flowed freely. 1 gal a day per person is great but it is rationing and no where near what most people use per day.

I've gone just short of 3 months with no other water than what i had put back. This was years ago, years before I had the resources or option to store more. It was a very difficult time. Recently we went 6 weeks with no water than what we have stored and in our pond in the dead of winter with a horse and smallstock. It was hard, I will never pretend otherwise, but it wasn't as hard as when I was younger with only a dog and cat. 

Our only hot water for the last 4 years is our solar shower (two blue barrels) and what I heat inside on stove or woodstove. In the summer it's luxurious, in the winter it's a pain on a good day. 

It might seem quaint and romantic to sew by hand, live by candlelight, can on a wood stove, raise and butcher all your own meat, make cloth from sheep to loom, be the only kind of healer you have access to, cut your own wood from tree to stove, grow your own food from Y plow to table etc etc etc etc. 

Dry runs are great but there is no better teacher than living it. Even if you just live it a few months each year. But live it fully and completely during that time. 

And I agree completely about new houses being the opposite of conducive to this sort of living. My only, uneducated, advice would be to start now and see what you can change. Our house is 77 years old and was built for just such a life. 

However, a modern house is shelter and better than many other options. Part of my life was spent living in a car or completely homeless. A car is a luxury hotel compared to sleeping on concrete under the eave of a bridge. 

The most important thing to know is that you can make it. Do what you can to improve your situation but if TSHTF tomorrow, you can still make it. Even if all you have are the clothes you're wearing.

There are three parts to that. 1 Refuse to give up. 2 Use your head. 3 See the value in what you have, not in what you don't have.


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## Viking

When we move to our property in the early 80's my wife, son, about 6 years lived in a 17 foot travel trailer with an added shed, no grid power, an old washingmachine engine that ran a Ford alternator to charge the trailer battery, and spring water that came to two thirty gallon metal garbage cans for a reservoir at the top of our property. We lived in the trail/shed combo for 17years, so we kind of learned to survive on next to nothing. I don't think we'll forget what we went through and I don't think we'd really like to go through that kind of stuff again but at least we have a whole lot more room and are far better prepped than we were then. Jewel mentioned water, to me that is probably far more important than most people realize, even those who prep, it's one issue I harp on continually. The neighbors on both sides of us and ourselves have gravity feed systems, the neighbor on the West side and us use them full time, the other neighbor mainly uses a well, but I have talked him into setting up a gravity system in case of a major power outage. We had very little help in those years so it was pretty much surviving on our own.


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## LincTex

Jewel said:


> This is my own personal point. Do it and live it, now while it's easy. I've lived over a year without power, no electricity, solar, wind, propane etc etc etc.. No lights is the easy part..


"Lights" is one of the easiest things to obtain.

One good deep cycle 12 volt battery, 60-80 watts of solar panel, several small 12volt DC LED floodlights, and a small inverter will get you out of "the dark ages" for about $100 or so. I don't see any reason to not at least have electric LED lighting and a little bit of A/C power when it can be had so inexpensively. 
http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f16/d-i-y-solar-generator-less-than-208-a-23287/


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## TheLazyL

"Surviving Alone"

A Loner's advantages:

1. Easier to move about and still remain hidden.
2. Less food requirements.
3. Not betting your life that someone else doesn't fall asleep during guard duty.
4. Don't have to worry about angering another member who would rat on you.
5. Less shelter requirements.
6. Don't have to deal with unexpected pregnancies. 
7. Easier to avoid hostile forces.
8. Lack of personal hygiene doesn't offend anyone.
9. Don't have to be concerned about anyone taking advantage of your secrets.
10. Don't need codes, authentication passwords or communication gear. Less stuff to maintain and/or backpack.


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## BillM

*The hardest thing*

The hardest thing to do without, is information.

The greatest fear is fear of the unknown.

Being alone with no communication with the outside world, not knowing what is comming or when to expect help, is somthing that modern man has never experianced.


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## musketjim

We have our core group of friends and we try to expand as we are able but it's only as we get to know them as well as our closest friends. We know our neighbors at the BOL better than most of our neighbors here. We have a very large transient population and it's hard to get to know more than a couple of them. 


"The good guys aren't coming"


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## Jewel

LincTex said:


> "Lights" is one of the easiest things to obtain.
> 
> One good deep cycle 12 volt battery, 60-80 watts of solar panel, several small 12volt DC LED floodlights, and a small inverter will get you out of "the dark ages" for about $100 or so. I don't see any reason to not at least have electric LED lighting and a little bit of A/C power when it can be had so inexpensively.
> http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f16/d-i-y-solar-generator-less-than-208-a-23287/


Great idea! Thank you!

I agree on lights being one of the easiest things to obtain but I see 100 reasons for some folk not to have electric LED lighting. I said no lights was the easy part ... meaning easy to rectify, not that we just lived without lights 

So, for folks who share those 100 reasons, you can do like we did. Wake and sleep with the sun, and use candles, oil lamps and lanterns when needed. We also had flashlights of many sizes.

Add to that easy torches made from mullien stalks and lard lamps for outside. there are a great many light options that cost little or nothing.

One of my prizes it a mirror back candle sconce made for reading and sewing. It's surprising how much light it puts out.

These days I can and do have other options but our ancestors were able to make it just fine without any sort of electrical lighting and we can too.

The point is learning to do by hand, make do with what you have and thrive the old way when needed


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## BillS

TheLazyL said:


> "Surviving Alone"
> 
> A Loner's advantages:
> 
> 3. Not betting your life that someone else doesn't fall asleep during guard duty.


I think #3 is the biggest danger of going totally alone. You can't stay awake forever. Whenever you sleep you're vulnerable. If you're part of a married couple you can take turns staying awake with a gun handy.

And of course, if one of you has been fixed you don't have to worry about an unplanned pregnancy.


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## DM1791

Surviving alone can be done. I think it takes a much more vigilant and active person to pull it off, though, and there will be inevitable psychological repercussions from the lack of human contact. People who are totally isolated will, eventually, become unstable. 

And then they become dangerous.

The key to surviving in a group, depending on the severity of the SHTF situation, will rest in striking a balance between the # of people, the skillsets available, and the availability of resources. At some point, the max carrying capacity will be reached, and then it's time to shut the doors to new "residents" (members, etc.).


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## Grimm

cueza said:


> the people whom you "know" are the most likely to prey upon you, actually.  You won't find enough like-minded people, of real preparedness and honor, in a small enough geographical circle, to have any realistic expectation of the group's actually being able to get together (in time do do you any good). They'll be chasing pets, lost kids, etc, and it will take them many days, if not weeks, to get their stuff together. By then, they'll just be prey.


Your 'bride' just filed for a divorce didn't she?


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## fondini

Practice is fun when you know there's an end to it


Sent from my iPad using Survival Forum


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## Moby76065

http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f93/howdy-all-its-been-while-seeking-friends-25647/

DFW area.

There is safety in level headed heavily armed and well trained numbers.


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## Trevorchristiansen

To survive alone it could be hard and more when you have to face the conditions like this.Insted of staying alone and facing the critical conditions it is better to take the help of your neighbours or others you may now. It manily depends on the way we think as mentioned in the post because if we will try to make relation with someone then we will get the response not only the critical conditions make the unity or groups.


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## readytogo

*Make contact............*

No one should be alone my friends even if your nearest neighbor is miles away make contact, back in my younger days we all used to get on a oxen pulled cart and travel a few kilometers to visit our neighbors to barter with them I remember that my mother used to take homemade soap bars and dry fruits to barter for honey and other items that we could not make, it was fun and a great learning experience for me, we had no way to communicate with anybody up on those Cuban hills, no electricity either but everybody who pass our home stop by to bring news from town or just shared a plate of food or get out of the rain, especially when they brought hard candy, so yes make contact, it may make you feel better.


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## musketjim

I know some of my neighbors here at home and all my neighbors at BOL. I have many friends who have a lot of mad skills. I believe I could survive alone and scrape by, but why would I want to get by without my wife, kids and grandkids and friends? Can't imagine life without them.


"Take care of your neighbor now, you might have to eat him later."


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## FrankW

Geek999 said:


> .... For that reason there is a certain level of OPSEC I maintain here, though for the most part I figure distance means members here will be irrelevant once SHTF. If the Internet goes down the preparations, and discussion thereof, will be concluded.
> .


I agree with OPSEC not being that important due to distance.
But I have met at least one person from this board and we have been training together diligently by going to Max Velocity tactical. :beercheer:

Just got back from a cold outdoors weekend doing that with him.

So this board creates valuable contacts IMO


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## ras1219como

BlueZ, I want to commend you for all of the diligent training that you do. I am constantly seeing you post about training programs you have attend and I think it's great that you are making the effort to not only practice but to get professional assistance in your training. 

And kudos to all the other preppers who take their training to the next level by seeking out courses. 

Training and practice are key to keeping skills sharp. In times of stress you WILL revert back to your LOWEST level of proficiency. You won't miraculously rise to a high level of proficiency. So if you don't train and practice you need to!!



Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum. Please forgive typos. 

"I will fear no evil, for the valley is mine and so is the shadow." 

"Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked."--Psalms 82:4


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## zilte

Even "mere" barter is likely to result in your getting poisoned, blown up, catching a disease, etc. Many a man is dead or in prison because of snitching/backstabbing by "close" family, and quite often, the "stresses" applied were not even 10% of what will be the case if shtf. Many will go insane/become completely evil once shtf.


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## StevieQ

In the military, we live by a code, it is so good, we can count on each other, no matter what, and we never leave our own behind, that being said, I have never found that type of bond, other than my immediate family after leaving military service. Civilians are different cats, I find their word is, whatever is good for me! That in itself is why I will not be looking for help, trust in a shitty situation, can mean death. one man army will always out last a group that is untrained and scared. And make no mistake about what happens in these scenarios, there will be thousands of mini groups and millions of singles, trying to steal and take and destroy, and to gain control. Again better know your group before SHF.


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## Utopian

tsrwivey said:


> The concept of a group of preppers with different skills coming together for mutual aid sounds wonderful. In reality, most people today are selfish & lack relationship skills (see the divorce rate?). I think if you don't know the people in your group well, have a long history of getting along well together, & have a deep genuine concern for eachother's well-being, it's not likely to work. IMHO, your group needs to consist only of family you really like as friends & friends that are like family. Anyone else should be a barter relationship only.


So true. You'll really have to trust your group. That for better or for worse, they'll stand by you.


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## Zeev_Zwaard

*Don't be that clueless*

One single neighbor and/or one single family member and/or friend or whatever that knows you are prepping in any sense of the word is going to put you on the bottom of a struggling, biting, scratching, screaming heap of desperate individuals all trying like rabid cannibals to get at you and your stuff as soon as scarcity sets in.

Absolute secrecy is IMMO the only way to go.

All those folks who "organize" their neighborhood will find themselves visited first by the powers that be, bent on requisitioning their supplies "for the common good" as soon (and it will take about two hours) somebody thinks of making any kind of "hoarding" (however they define it) a capital crime against everybody getting their government mandated "fair share" of "everything available"

People slide easily into collectivism when they have none and they imagine others having a lot and they expect to get at least a slice of something and, for them, that slice is better than the nothing they have right now.

So they'll be clamoring for the powers that be (that remain) to force all known preppers to surrender whatever they have.

If you have a goat and somebody outside of your absolute control knows it you can expect that goat to become communal very shortly after TSHTF. Whether it's over your dead body or not will depend amongst other things on your enthusiastic agreement with the ensuing collectivism. But be certain that most people will have no objections to whatever happens to you if you don't.

What I'm saying, amongst other things, is: if you are going to prepp like if you are going to buy a large quantity of toilet paper or canned tuna or whatever, buy it where nobody knows you, pay in cash, bring it home late, well covered, get your truck into the garage, close the door and then unload it. If you are going to train, don't let others know. Let nobody see or know of your prepping.

Here's some advice for you: think like a Jew in 1945 nazi germany. It may keep you alive. If you had told any of them in 1920 what was going to happen they would have laughed at you. Don't be that clueless.


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## kinda

the neighbors can't be relied upon to show up, in or on time, or know what to do. they'll be out hunting for loved ones, chasing a silly pet, etc. They aint got the needed supplies or skills, so what they'd contribute is less than what they'd cost. The bigger the group, the worse the threat of contagious diseases and outright stupid, dangerous behavior, too. People have no sense, discipline, or desire to be moral anymore. You don't know each and every one of them well enough to know if they can be trusted to stand guard, or get drunk or high while doing so, requiring you to shoot them and tick off their families. Better off without the risks/drama.


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## hiwall

kinda said:


> MYneighbors can't be relied upon to show up, in or on time, or know what to do. they'll be out hunting for loved ones, chasing a silly pet, etc. MY Neighbors aint got the needed supplies or skills, so what they'd contribute is less than what they'd cost. The bigger the group, the worse the threat of contagious diseases and outright stupid, dangerous behavior, too. People THAT I KNOW have no sense, discipline, or desire to be moral anymore. I don't know each and every one of them well enough to know if they can be trusted to stand guard, or get drunk or high while doing so, requiring ME to shoot them and tick off their families. I AMBetter off without the risks/drama.


I adjusted your statement slightly so it would be totally true.


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