# 2 Way Radio



## Dana

I am thinking about getting a pair of two way radios for emergency should our cell phones go out. I would prefer a AA powered 30 mile hand held 2 way. Who makes the best one or is there a better alternative? I am wanting to keep them in the car.


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## bkt

Beware the little hand-held Motorola (and other) radios boasting a 30 or 70 mile range. That is only in optimal line-of-sight conditions.

If anyone can suggest a reasonably-portable standalone means to communicate over longer distances (I'd settle for five or 10 miles, reliable communication), please post!


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## kc5fm

*Serious Communication*



Dana;41R6 said:


> I am thinking about getting a pair of two way radios for emergency should our cell phones go out. I would prefer a AA powered 30 mile hand held 2 way. Who makes the best one or is there a better alternative? I am wanting to keep them in the car.


Good Question, Dana.

For Serious communication, please get your amateur radio license. Your friends at the American Radio Relay League can help you find a local class and club with members who are willing to mentor you through the process.

Avoid the Family Radio System radios, unless you are on a network with your neighbors. This IS a good idea, if you can get your neighbors involved. 

Learn how to SMS on your cell phone. The data side of cellular service will be less congested than the voice side. Follow SAFE and WELL from the American Red Cross.

Call 800-BE-READY or visit http://www.ready.gov for additional preparedness information.

I hope this has been helpful.

Please let me know if you need additional information.


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## ktm

kc5fm said:


> Good Question, Dana.
> 
> For Serious communication, please get your amateur radio license. Your friends at the American Radio Relay League can help you find a local class and club with members who are willing to mentor you through the process.
> 
> Avoid the Family Radio System radios, unless you are on a network with your neighbors. This IS a good idea, if you can get your neighbors involved.
> 
> Learn how to SMS on your cell phone. The data side of cellular service will be less congested than the voice side. Follow SAFE and WELL from the American Red Cross.
> 
> Call 800-BE-READY or visit http://www.ready.gov for additional preparedness information.
> 
> I hope this has been helpful.
> 
> Please let me know if you need additional information.


Great post kc5fm, 73z n6obb


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## Fetthunter

We use Motorola Talkabout FRS radios on our farm. They have a range of several miles, which is enough for us. Having a radio assumes that there is someone on the other end with the same type of radio. A "30 mile" radio would be good to talk to your other family members across town, assuming they had the same kind/type of radio. For our needs (staying in contact around the farm without relying on cell phones), the FRS radios are just fine. I can imagine us using them in an emergency situation as well. They're quite handy, and inexpensive. They run on AA batteries, too.


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## 5artist5

kc5fm said:


> Avoid the Family Radio System radios, unless you are on a network with your neighbors. This IS a good idea, if you can get your neighbors involved.


Why avoid FRS?

In my opinion it's much better than CB and almost as good as GMRS without the stupidly high license fee.


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## ke4sky

*Portable radios for Personal Communications*

*Cellular and PCS portable telephones may not "work" during an emergency. * Their central offices and switching infrastructure aren't to enable everybody to use them at once. Design assumptions presume that only about 5 to 10% of users will use the system at one time. If everyone tries to use their phones, the system becomes "overloaded" and you will get a "system busy" or "no service available" message.

*The Family Radio Service or FRS has utility for short range communications*, if you understand and accepts its significant limitations. The FCC created FRS as an unlicensed service for use by families and groups. FRS radios are readily available at discount stores such as Wal-Mart or Radio Shack for about $25. They are pocket-sized, use common AA or AAA batteries and have better audio quality than Citizen's Band or CB portables.

*FRS is reliable for only 1/2 to 3/4 mile under typical city conditions.* Advertising claims of "range up to two miles," apply only if you are up high, in the clear without interfereing buildings, terrain or ground clutter. This is line-of-sight communication and FRS is a low-powered, short-range service. It works for much farther than you can yell and is cheaper than using your cell phone minutes within your neighborhod. Reliable communication of over a mile using FRS is the exception and not the rule. Think of FRS as a pocket-sized, half-mile wireless intercom, no more.

*Not everyone in your neighborhood will want or need FRS. * Canvass your neighborhood and ask who already has one. Buy them for elderly, special needs, high risk populations and "block captains" in your Neighborhood Watch group.

If your local emergency management agency uses CERT, Neighborhood Watch or RACES volunteers, they can monitor FRS Channel 1 to listen for people who need assistance. This channel is widely used as a "neighborhood calling" frequency during emergencies. Turn off any "privacy codes" and listen with "carrier squelch" only (explained later).

The ability to monitor FRS1 to relay distress traffic to authorities may be vital if telephone service is interrupted for any reason. Residents living alone or with impaired mobility should consider FRS to maintain contact with a friend or neighbor within walking distance who is able to assist them in an emergency. Higher-end FRS radios are compatible with voice-actuated headsets, which ease use by persons having limited hand dexterity.

All FRS radios are compatible in operation. You may choose any one of 14"Channels" and talk to anyone within range using the same channel. Not all FRS radios have all 14 channels, but all have at least Channel 1. The idea is that if the power or telephones go out, everyone would turn on their radio to maintain a "listening watch" on Channel 1.

Neighbors should check to ensure that anyone living alone is OK and that in families everyone is accounted for. Relay emergency calls down the line to someone in contact with the "outside world" through a working telephone, a phone patch via amateur radio or any other available communications.

If your family group uses any channel other than Channel 1, let your local emergency management know so that CERT teams, police and fire can program it into their scanners. Schedule a regular weekly test, such as Sunday mornings at ten over coffee, to meet "on the air," check the radio, and make sure the batteries are OK. Become familiar with how your FRS radio works and determine your area of coverage.

*So-called "privacy codes" touted by the radio manufacturers and mass marketers do NOT make your conversation private! * Continuous Tone Coded Squelch or CTCSS is used in amateur, business and public safety radios to enable multiple users to share the same channel without hearing each other. Anyone can turn the "privacy code" off enabling them to hear all traffic on the channel. CTCSS is used to reduce ambient noise when you monitor the radio all the time. It is not a scrambler. Don't discuss personal information you want to keep private on FRS!

*If FRS is to be of any use in an emergency everyone should DISABLE TONE SQUELCH and use carrier squelch only! *

If you ever need to use a 2-way radio in a real emergency, it is vital that you be clearly understood. Professional emergency responders use plain language, and you should do the same. Avoid "ten-codes" and jargon you hear on TV shows because these terms have different meanings in different areas and are easily misunderstood.

*To call someone, say the name of the person your want to call, followed by the words "THIS IS," then say your name and "OVER." * For example:

*"MARTHA, THIS IS GEORGE, OVER."*
When Martha hears her name, it gets her attention. She may not know George, so when she hears the words "THIS IS" it alerts her to pay attention to who is calling her. When she hears "OVER" she knows that it is her turn to speak.

*Two-way radios are not "full-duplex" like a telephone.* You cannot hear what someone else is saying when YOU are talking. Because only one person can talk at a time, it is more important to LISTEN on a 2-way radio than to talk! It's basic "radio etiquette" to establish contact and make sure that you have the other person's attention before just "blabbing away."

*If you hear someone calling you, acknowledge the call by identifying yourself and saying, "GO AHEAD." *This lets the caller know that you heard them, and that you are ready to listen to what they have to say.

*When you want them to respond say "OVER." * The word "OVER" leaves no doubt about whose turn it is to talk and avoids any confusion which results from two people speaking at once and nobody hearing the other. When your business is finished, the person who started the conversation should end it by saying their name and the word "OUT" which leaves no mistake that the contact has ended.

*Always release the push-to-talk (PTT) button whenever you stop talking.* If you forget and keep it pushed down when trying to think of something to say, the radio continues to transmit a carrier, making your battery run down faster and making "dead air" so that nobody else can be heard. In the least sense, doing so is impolite. In an emergency, it could prevent someone with vital information from getting through. Leave a second or two between "hand-offs" to give others a chance to break in.

*Speak in short, simple phrases and toss the conversion back and forth with the word "OVER." *

*Don't speak immediately when you press the PTT, but wait an instant. * Most two-way radios take 100 to 300 milliseconds to change from receive to transmit, so if you speak as soon you "key up" it "clips" the first syllable, making it harder to understand. If that word doesn't make it, you will just have to say it again and run down your batteries faster.

*If you must use a 2-way radio to relay an emergency call to someone else who will make a telephone call for you, write the information down and collect your thoughts. * The 911 operator will need the exact location, street name, house number and nearest cross street to the emergency. This is vital if a call being relayed is made from a location different from the emergency.

* E-911 systems trace incoming calls. * It wastes precious response time if a unit is automatically dispatched to where the call is being made from, if it is far from the actual location of the emergency.

*Answer the call taker's questions as directly as possible, do not explain. * If asked a question, just answer. If you think that additional information is vital, be brief and let the call taker ask for more detail.

*It doesn't help to talk louder on the radio in a noisy environment*, even though it's may seem natural to speak louder when it is noisy around you. When you yell, the radio clips your voice, distorting voice audio so that it is less understandable.

*Speak ACROSS the microphone rather than into it *because breath sounds also reduce intelligibility.

*Use a natural speaking voice. *The proper way to overcome loud ambient noise is to shield the microphone from the wind, point it away from the source of noise or wait until the noise passes. A hand-held microphone or boom-mike with headset may be convenient if you have limited mobility or need your hands free to use tools or equipment, and are speaking to someone nearby.

Any portable transceiver is much less effective when worn on your belt, because the radio signal is absorbed your body. This is very noticeable with low power FRS. Unless you can see the person, house or car that you are talking to, hold the radio vertically, at face level, with its antenna in the clear.

*Range is reduced to less than half if you use the radio inside a metal vehicle or inside a steel reinforced building.* If you have trouble communicating, pull safely off the road and step outside the vehicle away from the traffic flow to use the radio.

*In cold weather keep the radio warm *inside a coat pocket or in your purse, NOT exposed on your belt. Adapters, which enable you to power the radio from your auto cigarette lighter plug, are useful for extended operation. If the radio will work with common AA batteries, you don't need to depend on household current to recharge.

*A FRS radio is NOT a substitute for a cellular telephone! * It is prudent to have a cellular telephone available for personal emergency communications and to use it as long as it still "works." But, cellular telephones are not totally reliable under all emergency conditions. FRS, despite its significant performance limitations, provides an inexpensive short-range alternative for people who are willing to learn and practice to supplement their community preparedness.


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## ke4sky

*FRS/GMRS Frequently Asked Questions*

*Confusion is associated with common 22-channel hybrid FRS/GMRS radios. *

According to the FCC use of 22-channel hybrids on anything other than the low power 500mw FRS only channels 8-14 requires a license. The interstitial simplex channels 1-7 in these radios are shared with the General Mobile Radio Service and transmit at higher power on these radios, so their use requires a license. This effectively limits those using these hybrid radios who do not have a GMRS license to using FRS channels 8-14, because these are the only channels in which software defaults to low power upon transmit. Channels 15-22 are split frequency repeater "duplex" pairs only used in the GMRS, and repeater use requires a license.

*The Frequently Asked Questions *http://www.fcc.gov/pshs/docs/clearinghouse/references/cert-frs-gmrs-faq.doc

*General Mobile Radio Service (GMRS) Definition *
*FCC R&R 95.1 [Definition of the GMRS]: *
*"The General Mobile Radio Service (GMRS). (a) The GMRS is a land mobile radio service available to persons for short-distance two-way communications to facilitate the activities of licensees and their immediate family members. Each licensee manages a system consisting of one or more stations."

FCC R&R 95.143: "Managing a GMRS system in an emergency. 
(a) The stations in a GMRS system must cease transmitting when the station operator of any station on the same channel is communicating an emergency message (concerning the immediate protection of property or the safety of someone's life). 
(b) If necessary to communicate an emergency message from a station in a GMRS system, the licensee may permit:

(1) Anyone to be the station operator and
(2) The station operator to communicate the emergency message to any radio station." Groups may not discourage authorized users others from sharing the frequency or interfere or preclude others from conducting useful personal or family communication. You may not "reserve" channels by busying-out channels through conducting public safety training activities, networks etc.. Such activity is inconsistent with the definition of the General Mobile Radio Service. GMRS licensees are required to share (FCC R&R 95.7) 

"As a CERT volunteer may I use a GMRS radio?" 
Yes, as long as you have a GMRS license.

"I have been told that since I am a CERT volunteer I do not have to obtain a GMRS license to use my twenty-two channel GMRS/FRS hybrid radio. Is that true?"  No. You must obtain a GMRS license to use a twenty-channel hybrid.

FCC: "If you operate a radio that has been approved exclusively under the rules that apply to FRS, you are not required to have a license. FRS radios have a maximum power of ½ watt (500 milliwatt) effective radiated power and integral (non-detachable) antennas. If you operate a radio under the rules that apply to GMRS, you must have a GMRS license. GMRS radios generally transmit at higher power levels (1 to 5 watts is typical) and may have detachable antennas. The current fee for a new GMRS license is $85"

"I was told that as long as I use the FRS channels on a twenty-two channel GMRS/FRS hybrid radio that I do not need a GMRS license. Is that true?" 
The FCC website clearly states that if a radio was approved/certified by the Commission as a GMRS radio then the operator requires a GMRS license to operate that radio. The presumption is that you will use all of the channels in the radio not just the FRS channels.

From the FCC: "Before any station transmits on any channel authorized in the GMRS from any point within or over the territorial limits of any area where the FCC regulates radio services, the responsible party must obtain a license. The FCC usually grants GMRS system licenses for a five-year term. To apply for a GMRS system license, you may file online through the Universal Licensing System (ULS), or file FCC Form 605 manually. New filers can learn more about ULS in its getting started tutorials. See Fee Requirements for FCC Form 605 for current licensing fee information.

"What are the benefits to obtaining a license? "The benefits are many.

• You may use up to fifty-watts transmitter output power FCC R&R 95.135 on base stations and mobile units with home rooftop or vehicle rooftop antennas.

• You may use up to five watts effective radiated power on FRS 1-7

• You may have a Small Base Station FCC R&R 95.139on FRS 1-7. (Five watts ERP or less and antenna height not to exceed twenty feet.)

• You may use radios with removable antennas. Such antennas are forbidden by FCC Rules on twenty-two channel hybrid radios because these include FRS frequencies eight through fourteen.

• You may use radio repeater stations to increase your range.

"Can my CERT group reserve a GMRS channel for our use in a specific area?"  No. You have no specific right to a channel. You are required to share this resource with other users just like everyone else does.

"What is the most efficient way to use my radios before, during, and after an emergency?"  Plan ahead, use appropriate identifiers (tactical call signs, first names) so you know who is who, agree on a communications protocol and relay mechanism for your neighborhood. Get your local Amateur Radio Service operators and GMRS licensees involved in the planning! Be polite, listen before transmitting, and communicate quickly and precisely so that others can also use the channels. Use your FRS radios to stay in touch with your children as they play and encourage your neighbors to do the same. Always listen carefully before transmitting. Never yell or shout into a radio. Avoid the use of call tones.

"What is the best way for me to get communications for my group?" Don't reinvent the wheel and "KISS." Hopefully your group sponsor has a committed leader with disaster planning experience, knowledge of communication systems, the ability to manage resources and supervise volunteers to accomplish their mission. Leadership makes all the difference in disaster planning. The biggest mistake any jurisdiction can make is allowing poor leadership to Balkanize critical communications resources.

Setting up competing communications groups is not productive. Setting up neighborhood communications plans IS productive; however, you need to use existing resources effectively. Plan a very-local method of communicating between your neighborhoods. Do it wisely and work within the FCC Rules.*


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## DuckA

One thing to consider about these radios in an emergency situation is that anyone on the same channel can hear you. I was on a voice intercept team while I was in the Army. We obtained better info during training using these radios than we did with our intercept equipment. The reason? The official comms were encrypted, the hand-held radios were not. 

If things really go tits up, you're going to have people that are doing everything they can do to take advantage of others. They can get another radio, put it on scan, and sit outside of your area and get tons of useful info. For that reason, I would suggest getting a radio that has as little range as you can get away with and use it as little as possible.


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## ke4sky

*Analog voice vs. digital modes*



DuckA said:


> One thing to consider about these radios in an emergency situation is that anyone on the same channel can hear you. I was on a voice intercept team while I was in the Army. We obtained better info during training using these radios than we did with our intercept equipment. The reason? The official comms were encrypted, the hand-held radios were not. If things really go tits up, you're going to have people that are doing everything they can do to take advantage of others. They can get another radio, put it on scan, and sit outside of your area and get tons of useful info. For that reason, I would suggest getting a radio that has as little range as you can get away with and use it as little as possible.


That's one of of the reasons our Auxiliary Communications Service uses file compressed TCI/IP at 9600 baud over the air on UHF for things like shelter logs, casualty lists, logistics and resource management. Kenwood TMD700A digital radios are located in each fire station at the watch desk and are manned by ACS volunteers as a backup to our public safety radio system. An IRLP gateway enables the hams to dump into an ACS mailbox in WebEOC at the command fire station if the PTSN or public safety radio system would go down. This mailbox outside the county's main firewall is monitored by the ESF-2 Communications Network Support Tech on duty for authentication, routing and distribution into the secure internal WebEOC system. Type III ACS operators are also trained to use the public safety data console l and digital voice public safety radios in the fire stations.

FM voice on amateur radio is used only for alerting and confirmation of traffic receipt. All the operational traffic is sent digitally, similar to MT63 you may have used in the Army.


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## StanW

Dana said:


> I am thinking about getting a pair of two way radios for emergency should our cell phones go out. I would prefer a AA powered 30 mile hand held 2 way. Who makes the best one or is there a better alternative? I am wanting to keep them in the car.


====================================

ALSO - FOR STORM READY

CERT Radio Training Course

Our CERT radio training course is now co-hosted at the FCC's Public Safety and Homeland Security Bureau Clearing House.

The training here is FRS oriented here for the simple fact that most CERT team members are not going to be licensed amateurs but still need to know how to effectively use FRS radios for communications within their CERT team.

Our training does discusses the use of, and differences between Amateur Radio Service (ARS) and the General Mobile Radio Service (GMRS) in Part II. This is used as a way of tying CERT teams back to their Incident Command Post, EOC or Public Safety Answering Point using existing REACT and Red Cross GMRS repeaters, or amateur radio repeater networks.

Using REACT groups and amateur radio clubs to offer this training to your CERT teams is a great way to encourage some who show an interest in communications to become licensed in either Amateur Radio or the GMRS.

The General Mobile Radio Service is an FCC Licensed Service for personal and business use by immediate family members. The license, is good for 5 years costs $85, and no test is required. The benefits of licensing are:

• You may use up to fifty-watts transmitter output power (FCC R&R 95.135) on base stations and mobile units with home rooftop or vehicle rooftop antennas.

• You may use up to five watts effective radiated power on FRS channels 1-7

• You may have a Small Base Station (FCC R&R 95.139) on FRS 1-7. (Five watts ERP or less and antenna height not to exceed twenty feet.)

• You may use radios with removable antennas. Such antennas are forbidden by FCC Rules on twenty-two channel FRS/GMRS "hybrid" radios because these include FRS frequencies eight through fourteen.

• You may use radio repeater stations to increase your range.

GMRS uses commercial grade Part 95 radios which are certified for Landmobile use. FRS channels 1 through 7 are shared with GMRS. FRS and GMRS may legally talk to each other on the shared simplex channels.

In our county CERT members who complete the radio course and obtain either a GMRS or Amateur Radio Service license are issued portable radios for the service in which they are licensed by the county. Then they can function as the designated "Radio Operator" for their team using either amateur radio and GMRS repeater networks or simplex frequencies, depending upon their class of license.

Stan - Oro Valley, AZ Citizen Corp Councel - and Storm Ready


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## DuckA

ke4sky said:


> That's one of of the reasons our Auxiliary Communications Service uses file compressed TCI/IP at 9600 baud over the air on UHF for things like shelter logs, casualty lists, logistics and resource management. Kenwood TMD700A digital radios are located in each fire station at the watch desk and are manned by ACS volunteers as a backup to our public safety radio system. An IRLP gateway enables the hams to dump into an ACS mailbox in WebEOC at the command fire station if the PTSN or public safety radio system would go down. This mailbox outside the county's main firewall is monitored by the ESF-2 Communications Network Support Tech on duty for authentication, routing and distribution into the secure internal WebEOC system. Type III ACS operators are also trained to use the public safety data console l and digital voice public safety radios in the fire stations.
> 
> FM voice on amateur radio is used only for alerting and confirmation of traffic receipt. All the operational traffic is sent digitally, similar to MT63 you may have used in the Army.


That's a little outside the realm of the average dude using a radio. The average person isn't going to have all of that equipment. What I was getting at involves just some guy blabbing away over a Motorola that he bought at Walmart.


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## madrabbitt

Fetthunter said:


> We use Motorola Talkabout FRS radios on our farm. They have a range of several miles, which is enough for us. Having a radio assumes that there is someone on the other end with the same type of radio. *A "30 mile" radio would be good to talk to your other family members across town, assuming they had the same kind/type of radio*. For our needs (staying in contact around the farm without relying on cell phones), the FRS radios are just fine. I can imagine us using them in an emergency situation as well. They're quite handy, and inexpensive. They run on AA batteries, too.


This is where i point out, that in a urban or even suburban environment, even gmrs radios with the max power output, is worthless past even a few miles.

Heck, even at 25 watts, and a good external antenna, i cant get more then 10 miles out of GMRS units


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## madrabbitt

kc5fm said:


> Good Question, Dana.
> 
> For Serious communication, please get your amateur radio license. Your friends at the American Radio Relay League can help you find a local class and club with members who are willing to mentor you through the process.
> 
> Avoid the Family Radio System radios, unless you are on a network with your neighbors. This IS a good idea, if you can get your neighbors involved.
> 
> Learn how to SMS on your cell phone. The data side of cellular service will be less congested than the voice side. Follow SAFE and WELL from the American Red Cross.
> 
> Call 800-BE-READY or visit Ready.gov - Prepare. Plan. Stay Informed. for additional preparedness information.
> 
> I hope this has been helpful.
> 
> Please let me know if you need additional information.


Thats one of the best posts on the subject i've seen in a while. Nice job.


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## kc5fm

*Frs*



5artist5 said:


> Why avoid FRS?
> 
> In my opinion it's much better than CB and almost as good as GMRS without the stupidly high license fee.


My post was not clearly stated, apparently. I apologize for that.

FRS won't do you much good, if no one else is on it.

The National Standard is to use Channel One, non-encoded, plain text during disasters.

If your neighborhood watch party, area group, friends, neighbors, etc. are not going to USE FRS within or without the National plan, FRS is useless.

Then again, CB, amateur radio, cellphone, smoke signals, etc. are all useless, if no one communicates back.


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## XJ Monk

How about MURS radios? I am not sure about the licencing or if any licence is required but it has to have way better range over FRS radios.
As things are nowadays very few will be dedicated enough to study to become Ham operators.
I did not see any reference to MURS in this thread tho I may have missed it.


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## ke4sky

*Murs faq*

This is a good source of info on MURS

MURS: Frequently Asked Questions

20. What kind of range can I get from a MURS radio?

At the 150 MHz frequencies of MURS, communication range is dependent on antenna height relative to the surrounding environment. Range between two handheld MURS radios will vary, but should be between a half mile to perhaps several miles in open terrain if there are no obstacles. If are using MURS from inside a vehicle without an external antenna , the range will be much less.

An advantage of MURS over FRS is that you may connect an external antenna to your radio. Using an antenna mounted on the vehicle roof to communicate with another similar unit, you could reasonably expect reliable communication car-to-car for several miles in flat, open terrain, and possibly up to ten miles or more if hilltopping improves your line of sight.

Using a base station-type antenna elevated 20 feet above ground you should be able to communicate with a vehicular MURS unit over a range of three to perhaps ten miles, depending upon line of sight and your radio horizon. From that same base, you might get two to six miles communicating with a MURS handheld radio.

Base-to-base station communications should be possible over at least several miles, perhaps up to twenty miles or more on a clear channel if stations are up high on a hill and in the clear. However, this kind of operation is not consistent with the traditional use of these frequencies for short-range base-to-mobile and mobile-to-mobile communications.

There are other factors that affect communications range. An especially important consideration is channel occupancy. In most urban areas, some MURS frequencies (especially the two MURS 154 MHz frequencies) are already heavily populated with handheld and mobile operations, and (on some channels) base stations as well.


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## AgentFlounder

MURS is only 2 watt it looks like. That's not much. At that rate I would think CB would be preferable since it is so ubiquitous. If everyone in the party uses a good antenna (K40, Wilson, Firestik, etc) on a good steel ground plane and you get some pretty impressive distances for line of sight comm. Select single side band radios for all in the party and you get even better range. That's pretty tough to beat. Handhelds are bulky so that is potentially a big downside, but the really good ones ($150) do have decent range.

It seems to me the real way to go for emergency comm is amateur radio. No simplex radio can really beat use of repeaters. Many amateur repeaters are set up to support emergencies since ham operators often volunteer to aid with communication during emergencies via ARES -- Amateur Radio Emergency Service. A 2m (144-148MHz) mobile radio will typically have in the ballpark of 50W of power. Handhelds vary but are relatively compact and powerful. With repeaters you really don't need a bunch of power, but it helps if you're communicating simplex (what CB and FRS do)

When repeaters are linked together you talk across a wide range. The Colorado Connection repeaters let me talk across much of the western part of the state. Note too that that this is vastly different from lower frequency skip which occurs at night and you never quite know who you will reach.


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## endurance

There's simply no handheld radio that I know of that can reach 30 miles without a repeater. With a repeater, you can do amazing things (i.e. with our forest service radios we had 2.5 watt handhelds and could communicate with the forest office over 75 miles away because we had a 300 watt repeater to relay off of). While there are hundreds of repeaters (probably thousands) operated by private Ham radio clubs, I'm not sure how reliable they will be in an emergency. It probably depends on the nature and scope of the emergency. Many are grid-tied, but some are solar. In any case, getting a Ham license would be the first step if you're serious about comms.

Typically you can get about 1 mile per watt. Most handhelds are .5-2.5 watts, with some up to 5 watts. Most car-mounted radios (like emergency services use) are 25-35 watts, but they almost always use a repeater giving them essentially unlimited range except in the most rugged terrain. The one exception that's readily available is Single Side Band (SSB) CB radios. I used to have a SSB radio and it would stretch 7-10 miles somewhat reliably, and if the atmosphere was really stable, 15 miles wasn't unheard of. This was on a car mounted radio that put out only 5 watts. It didn't take a license (or if it did, it was basically just like filling out a registration form) and the cost was reasonable. No, it wasn't handheld, but without getting seriously into it, SSB might be your best answer.


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## ke4sky

*Amateur Radio Still the Best Bang for the Buck*

For an affordable backpack emergency radio the Yaesu FT-817 is pretty hard to beat. It is little larger than a heldheld, 5 watts, with UHF, VHF and HF all in one box. Does all modes, CW, SSB, FM, simplex and repeaters. If you use a efficient antenna on HF which is resonant on your working frequency, and you set up the antenna to optimize its radiation pattern for the band in use and current operating conditions you can make coast-to-coast and intercontinental contacts on 5 watts. You might learn to use propagation software and learn to work the "gray line." Learn which parts of the world a particular band is open to at a given time. Listen to beacons and utliity stations to check current band conditions for a given band. This is what ham radio is all about and the general knowledge you acquire in studying for the test helps you become a more effective operator.


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## Fn/Form

Dana said:


> I am thinking about getting a pair of two way radios for emergency should our cell phones go out. I would prefer a AA powered 30 mile hand held 2 way. Who makes the best one or is there a better alternative? I am wanting to keep them in the car.


Dana, what range (in miles) do you want to cover? What is the type of terrain between you and the people you wish to contact? Can you give some scenarios where radio contact would be useful? What is your maximum budget? Do you want handie talkie or otherwise portable radio? Or is a dedicated car radio OK?


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## kc5fm

*HamData*



XJ
As things are nowadays very few will be dedicated enough to study to become Ham operators.
[/QUOTE said:


> In relationship to the total population, there are fewer amateur radio operators. In other words, there's not 100% saturation.
> 
> Neither is there 100% saturation in services where there is no license.
> 
> However, there is a positive growth of 7% in amateur radio licenses.
> 
> Is the glass half empty? With a net gain of 200 in 18 months, I can see why "very few" appear to be dedicated.
> 
> For a snapshot of where the amateur radio community stands, visit HamData. There, it is reported that the most popular amateur radio license has increased 40 per day.
> 
> A quick check at the American Radio Relay League shows seven test sessions scheduled in Oklahoma alone. This is ONE Volunteer Examiner in ONE State.
> 
> Test sessions will discontinue when the people quit sitting for the test.
> 
> Granted the number of people at test sessions may be a handful. However, that's no different than when the Federal Communications Commission gave quarterly exams YEARS ago.
> 
> In summary, the numbers may seem few but the numbers are not in decline.
> 
> Lloyd, KC5FM


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## kc5fm

*Declining numbers*



kc5fm said:


> In summary, the numbers may seem few but the numbers are not in decline.


I could not find this site when I first posted this information.

Between January 2008 and December 2008, there has been a net increase of some 7K licenses in the USA.

Extra Advanced General Technician Novice ARS Total
115,468 62,045 144,537 322,255 18,315 662,620

The Advanced and Novice classes are no longer issued. Those numbers will never increase, as long as the FCC continues to not issue them.

The net gain over the period can be attributed to the Technician class. This is the entry level into amateur radio now.

AH0A keeps a good record of statistics and charts. There's other information at the site, if one wishes to browse around.

Happy Holidays to one and all!


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## The_Blob

I've used these before & they are... ok
I've only used them within < 10 miles of each other in hilly terrain with moderate density forest
Either way, they're affordable enough to play around with & if they don't work for your purposes the kids will love playing with their own 'grown up' radios

Cobra GMRS 2-Way Radio Value Pack with 18-Mile Range for $37.99

These GMRS/FRS two-way radios come in a value pack with a range of up to 18 miles. The pack also includes rechargeable NiMH batteries and a two-port desktop charger. The desktop charger wall adapter can also charge one radio through its speaker/microphone/charge jack. Other features include 10-Channel NOAA All Hazards Radio, VOX hands free operation, a 10-channel memory, and a scan feature. You can save as many as 10 channels in the memory and then scan as many as you would like!

22-channel

Up to 18-mile range
121 privacy codes (38 CTCSS codes, 83 DCS codes)

10 NOAA weather radio channels

10 selectable call tones

10-channel memory

Includes 8 AAA recahrgeable NiMH batteries and 2-port desk charger


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## Chemechie

I would be surprised if you get more than 1/2 mile with GMRS - the advertised ranges are for very specialized conditions you will never see in real life, especially since most of the handhelds are combined with FRS which has stricter antenna and power limits. I've got a couple of handhelds, but I don't expect much out of them. As was previously stated, expect about 1 mile per watt, less in hilly terrain or indoors with any radio - including a better antenna than FRS.
I have a couple of MURS radios and they give better range and are much quieter frequencies. MURS allows automated alerts, so you can use sensors from Dakota Alert.  to watch for visitors and intruders.


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## JackAysJake

Ok, good info. Does anyone have a certain radio that they would suggest? The best one I found was from Midland. Personally, Im looking for a set that will run under $100. I am looking for a good set that I can speak to someone within 1-2 miles in traffic.


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## kc5fm

*Murs*



JackAysJake said:


> Ok, good info. Does anyone have a certain radio that they would suggest? The best one I found was from Midland. Personally, Im looking for a set that will run under $100. I am looking for a good set that I can speak to someone within 1-2 miles in traffic.


If you want MURS radios for under $100 per set, I'd look at used. Amazon has ONE for $70 some. FRS radios at Amazon are all over the place. I have had good results from the Motorola and Uniden models.

These are NOT Timex. In other words, they won't _take a lickin' and keep on tickin'_. I have had some radios that just failed, taken out of storage, put in batteries and nothing.

Again, MURS is not in your price range. As you have heard, it is your better choice. FRS is in your price range and for under a mile, outside, with no obstructions, it will probably work.


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## sailaway

I am considdering 2 ways, but don't have any yet. I was to told to check out Motorola at Wally World or Dicks.


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## david271

*No GMRS license required for FRS-only operation of FRS/GMRS dual-certified radios*

Just to further clarify, an FCC license IS NOT required if you operate only on FRS channels with power of not more than 500 milliwatts with a radio having an FCC equipment grant for both Part 95A (GMRS) and Part 95B (FRS).

The well-intentioned (but mistaken) writer quoted the FCC at Family Radio Service (FRS) | FCC.gov, under the heading "General Mobile Radio Service (GMRS) and Family Radio Service (FRS) Dual Devices".

The FCC is stating that if you operate a radio only certified under Part 95B, you do not need a license under any circumstances.

The FCC is further stating that if you operate a device under the rules that apply to GMRS -- i.e., you operate using parameters which apply to GMRS stations but for which FRS stations are not permitted to operate -- then you do need a GMRS license. The FCC did not say that if you operate a device certified under Part 95A you automatically need a GMRS license.

In other words, it is how you operate the dual-certified, Part 95A/Part 95B radio, which determines whether you need a GMRS license.

The authoritative source of FCC Rules is Title 47 of the Codified Federal Register, which is a codification of administrative law published in the Federal Register. (Laws passed by Congress are codified in the U.S. Code -- a separate body of law.)

If the FCC charges you with a violation, they must cite the appropriate part of 47 CFR. They can't cite you based on information they posted on their website (and certainly not based on misinterpretation of information cited on their website).

In 47 CFR 95.191(a) you are authorized to operate a Part 95B (FRS) certified unit (unless you are a representative of a foreign government). There is no exception to that authorization grant in the case of a dual-certified radio. And that's the law.

David A. Behar



ke4sky said:


> *Confusion is associated with common 22-channel hybrid FRS/GMRS radios. *
> 
> According to the FCC use of 22-channel hybrids on anything other than the low power 500mw FRS only channels 8-14 requires a license. The interstitial simplex channels 1-7 in these radios are shared with the General Mobile Radio Service and transmit at higher power on these radios, so their use requires a license. This effectively limits those using these hybrid radios who do not have a GMRS license to using FRS channels 8-14, because these are the only channels in which software defaults to low power upon transmit. Channels 15-22 are split frequency repeater "duplex" pairs only used in the GMRS, and repeater use requires a license.
> 
> *The Frequently Asked Questions *http://www.fcc.gov/pshs/docs/clearinghouse/references/cert-frs-gmrs-faq.doc
> 
> *General Mobile Radio Service (GMRS) Definition *
> *FCC R&R 95.1 [Definition of the GMRS]: *
> *"The General Mobile Radio Service (GMRS). (a) The GMRS is a land mobile radio service available to persons for short-distance two-way communications to facilitate the activities of licensees and their immediate family members. Each licensee manages a system consisting of one or more stations."
> 
> FCC R&R 95.143: "Managing a GMRS system in an emergency.
> (a) The stations in a GMRS system must cease transmitting when the station operator of any station on the same channel is communicating an emergency message (concerning the immediate protection of property or the safety of someone's life).
> (b) If necessary to communicate an emergency message from a station in a GMRS system, the licensee may permit:
> 
> (1) Anyone to be the station operator and
> (2) The station operator to communicate the emergency message to any radio station." Groups may not discourage authorized users others from sharing the frequency or interfere or preclude others from conducting useful personal or family communication. You may not "reserve" channels by busying-out channels through conducting public safety training activities, networks etc.. Such activity is inconsistent with the definition of the General Mobile Radio Service. GMRS licensees are required to share (FCC R&R 95.7)
> 
> "As a CERT volunteer may I use a GMRS radio?"
> Yes, as long as you have a GMRS license.
> 
> "I have been told that since I am a CERT volunteer I do not have to obtain a GMRS license to use my twenty-two channel GMRS/FRS hybrid radio. Is that true?"  No. You must obtain a GMRS license to use a twenty-channel hybrid.
> 
> FCC: "If you operate a radio that has been approved exclusively under the rules that apply to FRS, you are not required to have a license. FRS radios have a maximum power of ½ watt (500 milliwatt) effective radiated power and integral (non-detachable) antennas. If you operate a radio under the rules that apply to GMRS, you must have a GMRS license. GMRS radios generally transmit at higher power levels (1 to 5 watts is typical) and may have detachable antennas. The current fee for a new GMRS license is $85"
> 
> "I was told that as long as I use the FRS channels on a twenty-two channel GMRS/FRS hybrid radio that I do not need a GMRS license. Is that true?"
> The FCC website clearly states that if a radio was approved/certified by the Commission as a GMRS radio then the operator requires a GMRS license to operate that radio. The presumption is that you will use all of the channels in the radio not just the FRS channels.
> 
> From the FCC: "Before any station transmits on any channel authorized in the GMRS from any point within or over the territorial limits of any area where the FCC regulates radio services, the responsible party must obtain a license. The FCC usually grants GMRS system licenses for a five-year term. To apply for a GMRS system license, you may file online through the Universal Licensing System (ULS), or file FCC Form 605 manually. New filers can learn more about ULS in its getting started tutorials. See Fee Requirements for FCC Form 605 for current licensing fee information.
> 
> "What are the benefits to obtaining a license? "The benefits are many.
> 
> • You may use up to fifty-watts transmitter output power FCC R&R 95.135 on base stations and mobile units with home rooftop or vehicle rooftop antennas.
> 
> • You may use up to five watts effective radiated power on FRS 1-7
> 
> • You may have a Small Base Station FCC R&R 95.139on FRS 1-7. (Five watts ERP or less and antenna height not to exceed twenty feet.)
> 
> • You may use radios with removable antennas. Such antennas are forbidden by FCC Rules on twenty-two channel hybrid radios because these include FRS frequencies eight through fourteen.
> 
> • You may use radio repeater stations to increase your range.
> 
> "Can my CERT group reserve a GMRS channel for our use in a specific area?"  No. You have no specific right to a channel. You are required to share this resource with other users just like everyone else does.
> 
> "What is the most efficient way to use my radios before, during, and after an emergency?"  Plan ahead, use appropriate identifiers (tactical call signs, first names) so you know who is who, agree on a communications protocol and relay mechanism for your neighborhood. Get your local Amateur Radio Service operators and GMRS licensees involved in the planning! Be polite, listen before transmitting, and communicate quickly and precisely so that others can also use the channels. Use your FRS radios to stay in touch with your children as they play and encourage your neighbors to do the same. Always listen carefully before transmitting. Never yell or shout into a radio. Avoid the use of call tones.
> 
> "What is the best way for me to get communications for my group?" Don't reinvent the wheel and "KISS." Hopefully your group sponsor has a committed leader with disaster planning experience, knowledge of communication systems, the ability to manage resources and supervise volunteers to accomplish their mission. Leadership makes all the difference in disaster planning. The biggest mistake any jurisdiction can make is allowing poor leadership to Balkanize critical communications resources.
> 
> Setting up competing communications groups is not productive. Setting up neighborhood communications plans IS productive; however, you need to use existing resources effectively. Plan a very-local method of communicating between your neighborhoods. Do it wisely and work within the FCC Rules.*


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## lonewolf308

bkt said:


> Beware the little hand-held Motorola (and other) radios boasting a 30 or 70 mile range. That is only in optimal line-of-sight conditions.
> 
> If anyone can suggest a reasonably-portable standalone means to communicate over longer distances (I'd settle for five or 10 miles, reliable communication), please post!


Most handheld radios are going to be line-of-site unless they are programmed to work off of a repeater. Those type of handhelds are mostly commercial (some amateur) and have duplexers built inside of them, along with sub-audible tone codes that each specific repeater will recognize. These handhelds rely on the repeaters for their communication distance. Should the repeaters ever go down, most of those radios will become bricks.

The amateur portables can be switched to operate on both simplex (line-of-site), or setup to work off repeaters. And most of you FRS/GMRS handhelds have a greater line-of-site distance than the portable amateur radios.

CB radios especially portables are_ high frequency _radios and have to be used when band conditions are optimal to get any kind of real distance out of them. When a CB's 4 watt 27mhz signal cannot bounce off the Earth's D layer (ionosphere) the signal is basically ground wave propagation, which imo is worse than line-of-site.

As a licensed Ham radio operator, I own and have field tested all three types of portable handhelds and I can say that in a SHTF scenario, The FRS/GMRS radios probably offer the best choice for 2 way communications.

Just one man's opinion.


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## radioactivemedia143

It is the best part of the radio , its really so much necessary, the best example of this is mobile. Mobile is mainly work as 2 way radio.


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## texas_red

*Just wondering...*

How well would those handheld VHF marine 2-way radios work in a non-marine environment? They appear to have 2 - 5 watts of output and may have more range than the UHF handhelds.


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## dataman19

First of all let's clarify something here::
Cell Phones are not Emergency Communications Devices....
- Even FEMA has come to realize the reality that Cell Phone communications in a disaster is like stringing string for tin can point to point (useless)..
..
FEMA does not depend on Cell Phones.....
...
That said..
..
Not All HF will be disaster/emergency oriented. The move since the 1990's has been to move HF commercial to Trunked Channel Access. This is where the "privacy" codes come into play. But almost everyone has realized they can leave the channel codes open and hear everything. The more sophisticated Motorola Leased HF Systems rely on a control Base unit to simplex out the duplex channel assignments. Effectively, in an emergency the owning communications provider could shut the system down - rendering these leased radios "paper weight" status. They can be activated, if and only If you have the programming cable and the software to do so.
..
In an emergency the HAM Bands will be clogged, but will be workable. HAM Radio has a tried and true history of being the go to service for national and international communications reliability.
..
Myself, I rely on four KWM-2A stations and a few other rigs (the KWM-2A are my "old reliables") the rest are just there. I also have five Shortwave receivers and three 100-channel scanners. I have a 16-track Digital Recorder to record up to 16 radios (usefull when you are scanning to see who is really out there - also handy to monitor for distress signals so you have an idea of where to listen for follow on info). I also have seven LST-5b Mobile UHF SATCOM Trancievers. They can be used anywhere in the hemisphere to talk to each other, can be encrypted using AFKAC Tape Keys (only handy if you have an encryption programming software package to build the tapes and then a tape punch machine to build the tapes). But they can also be used point to point and have a 5-50 watt radio. They can be operated from a 24VDC power source and two can be strapped to opposite sides of a tree and cabled to provide an instant tactical repeater.
..
This was one of "My" programs for the US Government prior to my retirement. The other was the global SATCOM Cell Phones and Global Digital (including SINGARS and Have Quick - Military buzz words, unimportant unless you know what they are)... Most of our efforts in the 70's and 80s was on Satellite Imagery and listening (spying in a nutshell). We were really good at it - Knew that Alatoya Komeinni was going to take over the US Embassy in Tehran six months before he did it (we listened to his Satcom Phone Conversations from France - where the US Government paid for his upkeep- with the radical islamic student leaders, one being the current President of Iran), We knew that there was a plot to blow up an American Airliner over Scotland before they did it, and probably knew they were going to target the world trade center before they did it ( Retired in 1996, so I was gone before the Islamic Extremists plotted about the World Trade Center Attack. It wasn't so difficult to plan - tyhe US Government already laid out the scenario in a 1970s report about the World Trade Center's vulnerability to being destroyed by Aircraft Impacts. I now I read the report in the 1980's - no surprise there...). Problem is that clandestine eavesdropping isn't as public as one would think. No one wants to admit they are listening, yet they actively do it. No one wants to admit anything and the current government know hows don't share now any better than they did back then. In essence, no one wants to share information gathered by black ops or black funded programs because it points fingers at programs which aren't supposed to exist. But they do... It's just no one wants to admit it.
...
But I digress.... Back on subjecty....
...
Now about effective distress signals,,,, When sending a distress signal you don't just say "I need help" you state your call sign, your locations, and the emergency. It also helps to give a date/time stamp and when you will be listening for a response. Distressed calls sent in the "blind" can be like tossing a bottle into the ocean with a note. Some one may get it, they mat not. In radio some one may hear your distress but not have a sufficient power or propagation path back to you. So you may think no one heard, when in reality several could have heard and not been able to get through with a response.
....
The Term "In the Blind" means that you do not have confirmed connectivity, but are transmitting in the "hope" that some one will relay the info....
...
Now about those log periodics.... Beacons for scavengers... The tall and impressive radio tower and antenna structures scream "come take me". Unless you have sufficient security resources, I would invest in folding towers. Most nets are active on time tables (unless you are part of the Giant Talk system (and I doubt you will be) - they operate on a random time schedule and shadow shortwave power house stations to avoid detection. Single Sideband can do that - CB and normal FM cannot.
...
All in all this thread is really good reading....
..
But please - for your own safety - don't even think Cellular will be there when the SHTF - it won't....
..
Dave
Phoenix, AZ


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## kc5fm

*It takes Planning*



dataman19 said:


> But please - for your own safety - don't even think Cellular will be there


I found this site while looking for something else. After you read it, please come away with the thought that it takes planning for communication in disasters.

That's why there's an ICS-205 form.

Plan now what you will use for communications. Are you planning on using Cellular? Are you planning on using Amateur Radio?

After the plan, build your kit to support the plan.

The kit would include extra ways to run the thing. As DataMan relates, he's got more than one KWM-2 for a reason.

All ya'll be safe now.


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## Redtail

My local buddies and I will be relying on reprogrammed Saber II radios. 

We had one of our buddies who runs an awesome tactical gear shop up in Minnesota (DowntownTactical, for those interested) stumble across a lot of retired police/EMS/fire service radios in UHF. They've got 6-watt transmitters and came programmed for all of FRS, GMRS, and business band channels and are tough enough to take more than just a little bot of shock, as the original line was developed with military service in mind. 

A couple of us initially bought QX-numbered handsets not realizing what we'd got. THe whole kit cost $55, came with a whip antenna, radio, battery pack and a single-slot charger. 

Upon realizing that the QX radios had SecureNet chips installed and electronically disabled, we all got hold of them. I was lucky enough to get a QX-numbered radio with 8k of memory instead of the default 2K on the first go. 

Battery packs are unreliable at best, but can be replaced with a new one from Dantona. 

It's got a very flat profile which makes it store in the space that an M16 or AK47 magazine would normally take up, and again, I reiterate that these things are tough as nails. 

The ony way to block this sort of communication, with the extra frequencies we have programmed into the extra channels, would be a wideband denial-of-service attack with a jammer. Possible? Certainly. Practical? Psh.


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## Shammua

*Secure Comms*

Just found this website today and so far I have to say I am liking it already...

Now about comms, so far it mostly seems to be a debate about comms and security when TSHTF and how to have reliable comms without others listening in.

Well here is what my group has found and like. To back this up one of our group members is Active Duty and works on cryto gear and specializes in this stuff.

TriSquare TSX300
http://www.trisquare.us/tsx300.htm


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## sforgays

I purchased these two radios this past year and have had great luck. I have spoken with my friend who was about 12 miles away across open country and I have reached 4 miles in the city! Well worth the money in my book. 
The batteries in the the two-way is the same battery in the crank radio. We have used the crank too re-charge the hand helds. It is a self sufficient system.

Midland XT511 22-Channel FRS/GMRS Two-Way Emergency Crank Radio [Electronics] 
Condition: New
Sold by: Amazon.com LLC
$56.50

Midland GXT1000VP4 36-Mile 50-Channel FRS/GMRS Two-Way Radio (Pair) (Black/Silver) [Electronics] 
Condition: New
Sold by: Amazon.com LLC
$60.98


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