# cellar as bunker?



## db2469 (Jun 11, 2012)

Those of you who've decided to hunker down in your cellars when the SHTF and anarchy begins and have to live off the grid, what will you use for heat, electricity, refrigeration, water, toilets, etc? 
DB


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

We'll be staying in a house with a full basement. I like kerosene heaters and kerosene stoves. Won't have refrigeration. We have a few hundred batteries of various kinds so I can have flashlights and recharge my iPod, Kindle, and iPads. We have about 1500 gallons of water in our basement. Toilets will be 5 gallon buckets with snap-on toilet seats. They will be lined with garbage bags and we'll use kitty litter to cover the smell.

I don't like the idea of staying in a cellar. I think it's better to stay upstairs in a house and keep it guarded.


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## db2469 (Jun 11, 2012)

I don't like the idea either but with a steel cellar door and only a few VERY small windows I think we will be reasonably safe there but upstairs with all the windows and doors, we'd have no chance...
DB


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

Cellar = Tomb. 

I know we all like the idea of going underground but a cellar is not a bunker. Think about it, a bunker has thick heavy walls on all six sides, a cellar has thick(ish) walls on 5 sides (the dirt helps), and then a pile of kindling on the sixth side. Even against radiation from fall out a cellar which provides some protection against radiation doesn't protect enough in a one story building to make a cellar a viable fall out shelter. And unlike a bunker which has dedicated water and air supplies, a cellar may have a water supply, but usually doesn't have a dedicated air supply, meaning if that pile of kindling above you is set on fire the air in your shelter is going to sucked out to supply fuel for the fire.

I'm with Bills, a cellar might be a good place to stash your kids in a pinch, BUT in order for them to be safe you and your gun are going to have to defend the open sixth side (up) of your cellar, by defending the whole house...


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

Padre said:


> Cellar = Tomb.


I think that this sentiment pretty well sums up the issue.

It's like anything else: unless it was designed for the particular purpose for which one is attempting to use it, it's efficiency at accomplishing a given task will be compromised.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

*Can a bunker be built in your cellar?*



Padre said:


> Cellar = Tomb.
> 
> I know we all like the idea of going underground but a cellar is not a bunker. Think about it, a bunker has thick heavy walls on all six sides, a cellar has thick(ish) walls on 5 sides (the dirt helps), and then a pile of kindling on the sixth side. Even against radiation from fall out a cellar which provides some protection against radiation doesn't protect enough in a one story building to make a cellar a viable fall out shelter. And unlike a bunker which has dedicated water and air supplies, a cellar may have a water supply, but usually doesn't have a dedicated air supply, meaning if that pile of kindling above you is set on fire the air in your shelter is going to sucked out to supply fuel for the fire.
> 
> I'm with Bills, a cellar might be a good place to stash your kids in a pinch, BUT in order for them to be safe you and your gun are going to have to defend the open sixth side (up) of your cellar, by defending the whole house...


This is a good thread. I agree, just assuming that your cellar can be used as a bunker is not enough. During the cold war, when many people were afraid of the "reds", people did build bunkers in their backyards and basements. I saw a craigslist ad where someone was giving away the cinderblocks that had been used to build the bunker in their basement. I don't know what else was in there.

For me, one of the concerns has always been the ceiling of the bunker, especially if built under the house. How would you accomplish the depth of barrier with concrete? If you were building a new basement, you could do this in the process, but after the fact, how?

bunker = tomb is also something I have wondered about. I would think that your typical bunker is built with lots of concrete. Of course, not all are, but the homemade type would be. That and/or some cinderblocks. This is why I have always thought that you would need at least one escape tunnel. I have always considered how to accomplish this. You would want heavy duty steel doors at each end of it, at least.

Lots of work, all of it. In the city, how would you accomplish this without the neighbors being all over it? Doable, but not easily.


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## SimpleJoys (Apr 28, 2012)

I agree that a cellar is worthless as a bunker, but it does its uses beyond storage. As long as a portion of it is below the frost line and incoming air can be sealed off as needed, it won't freeze. Worst case scenario, we could survive a Maine winter with a tent and sleeping bags in a finished basement. We're looking into some sort of rocket stove to be installed down there to make it much more pleasant and to cook on if needed. Once all that masonry is warmed up, it will radiate heat for quite a while. We would use tarps to wall off the living area and a sawdust Humanure toilet. (Our septic system has an electric sump pump, so if we lost power, that would go, too, and we could only keep a generator going for so long.)


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## db2469 (Jun 11, 2012)

I'm new to the nomenclature of all this so "bunker" is probably not the word I should have used but what I meant was, that it would be the safest place in our house for the wife and me to survive the desperate hoards should they come around...
DB


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

That's a good question. I think it's _possible_ that a cellar would be a place to hide so that people don't know you're there. But you would be taking an awful risk by not defending your house. If people know you're there and they're in your house you're really in a dangerous situation.

Ideally you need at least two people who can use a gun and you take turns guarding the house 24/7 after it hits the fan. You can't afford to have everyone sleep at the same time. People could break in and surprise you.


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## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

Well db I wouldn't hide out there. Only one way in one way out and its below ground so you can get smoked or flooded out. Nope, stay mobile and if your worried about hordes hide your supplies away from you but close by. If you only have a little maybe you get left alone. Or maybe they torture and kill you for boredom but I wouldn't hide in a hole, stay mobile. If you run away they probably won't chase you cause they will go thru your house looking to loot. After they leave you can go back later as long as your preps are hidden somewhere else.


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## db2469 (Jun 11, 2012)

Thanks everyone for your suggestions, you've all been doing this longer than I have! So, are you all boarding up your windows and putting in steel doors? How does one make a single story house easily defensible? I live in a small town in a residential neighborhood in a generally rural part of the state so it's possible I won't get any/many marauders BUT I still need to prepare for that possibility..
DB


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## bahramthered (Mar 10, 2012)

Has anyone considered a false floor with a real bunker under the basement?

I think that would be the most important factor of a bunker, no one knows where it is. If the house above looks abandoned you might be safe, even if the house was searched. While not a hardcore prepper I like this idea. I can imagine my preps, an investment wine cellar, any questionable activities all hidden in a basement that would be hard to find.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

*Bunker under the basement?*



bahramthered said:


> Has anyone considered a false floor with a real bunker under the basement?
> 
> I think that would be the most important factor of a bunker, no one knows where it is. If the house above looks abandoned you might be safe, even if the house was searched. While not a hardcore prepper I like this idea. I can imagine my preps, an investment wine cellar, any questionable activities all hidden in a basement that would be hard to find.


I like this idea.

I lived in a duplex with a basement with a wooden floor. I don't think a false floor would have to be wooden, but I think a bunker opening can be hidden under a wooden floor, given a deck, a wooden walkway, a shed floor.


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## db2469 (Jun 11, 2012)

Even if they knew someone was downstairs behind a steel door why would they go to so much trouble to get down there knowing we might be armed? It seems to me they would take what they wanted from upstairs then leave to find easier prey...my only real fear would be a psycho setting the house on fire but how many would do that when their survival is the issue?
DB


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

db2469 said:


> Even if they knew someone was downstairs behind a steel door why would they go to so much trouble to get down there knowing we might be armed? It seems to me they would take what they wanted from upstairs then leave to find easier prey...my only real fear would be a psycho setting the house on fire but how many would do that when their survival is the issue?
> DB


I don't think it would necessarily take a psycho for a house fire. Think of the great Chicago fire. That is a well known story, but other places have had fires that have taken out many homes. If SHTF, many things are possible, and a city on fire could be one.

Today, on facebook, two different young women posted about non-working lazy types thinking that because these women worked, they were available for handouts. When it all goes south, there are people who will believe if you have it, they want (or think they need it), you'd just better give it over. Desperate times will make for desperate people. Being able to hide in a bunker with at least two escape routes is a great alternative, but a heck of alot of work.

I think a bunker can serve many purposes. Wish I had one.


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## Ration-AL (Apr 18, 2012)

weedygarden said:


> I don't think it would necessarily take a psycho for a house fire. Think of the great Chicago fire. That is a well known story, but other places have had fires that have taken out many homes. If SHTF, many things are possible, and a city on fire could be one.
> 
> Today, on facebook, two different young women posted about non-working lazy types thinking that because these women worked, they were available for handouts. When it all goes south, there are people who will believe if you have it, they want (or think they need it), you'd just better give it over. Desperate times will make for desperate people. Being able to hide in a bunker with at least two escape routes is a great alternative, but a heck of alot of work.
> 
> I think a bunker can serve many purposes. Wish I had one.


Read about the great fire of Edinburgh, alot of the people escaped into the vaults beneath the city only to be cooked alive , when it was all said and done people had literally melted together and had to be cut apart to be removed......

Nope, no sir , I'm strategically withdrawing,lol .......seriously though learned that on a tour there , if i was personally to dig a bunker it'd have to have a few rabbit holes to get in and out a couple of ways and be located away from the main residence, but I'm not doing that, i think I'm scarred from that tour , lol , being trapped is one thing, being burned out it an other, just make sure your bunker is deep enough to shed a couple thousands of degrees without cooking ya.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

db2469 said:


> Thanks everyone for your suggestions, you've all been doing this longer than I have! So, are you all boarding up your windows and putting in steel doors? How does one make a single story house easily defensible? I live in a small town in a residential neighborhood in a generally rural part of the state so it's possible I won't get any/many marauders BUT I still need to prepare for that possibility..
> DB


I don't have steel doors. If I boarded up my windows I'd do it from the inside. I'd close my curtains, lower my blinds, and then put up plywood on the inside. I'd want to keep things like molotov cocktails and tear gas from being thrown into the house but I wouldn't want it to look any different from the outside. I'll want my neighbors to think I'm not home so I won't be answering the door either.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

*and when the windows get broken?*



BillS said:


> I don't have steel doors. If I boarded up my windows I'd do it from the inside. I'd close my curtains, lower my blinds, and then put up plywood on the inside. I'd want to keep things like molotov cocktails and tear gas from being thrown into the house but I wouldn't want it to look any different from the outside. I'll want my neighbors to think I'm not home so I won't be answering the door either.


I like the idea of looking like you are not home, but in the long term, my concern would be windows being broken and then the marauders realizing the windows are boarded up from the inside. With the boards (or metal sheeting or plexiglass) on the outside, they still don't know if someone is home or not. I agree about the molotov cocktail being a problem and that is why I have considered the metal over plywood. If there were glass outside and then curtains, the curtains could catch on fire. Even on a brick building, window frames are usually wooden, although new windows are aluminum.
I think boarded up windows says vacant building. That might seem to invite attempted breakins, but there might be enough vacant buildings to deter that.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

*Good info.*



Ration-AL said:


> Read about the great fire of Edinburgh, alot of the people escaped into the vaults beneath the city only to be cooked alive , when it was all said and done people had literally melted together and had to be cut apart to be removed......
> 
> Nope, no sir , I'm strategically withdrawing,lol .......seriously though learned that on a tour there , if i was personally to dig a bunker it'd have to have a few rabbit holes to get in and out a couple of ways and be located away from the main residence, but I'm not doing that, i think I'm scarred from that tour , lol , being trapped is one thing, being burned out it an other, just make sure your bunker is deep enough to shed a couple thousands of degrees without cooking ya.


I think of children who especially try to hide when there is a fire.

But, do you have an idea about how to protect yourself against radiation? That is much more what I have in mind when I think of a bunker. I am not as concerned about being burned out, although anything is possible.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

*build a bunker like this*


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

I don't like bunkers . They are traps. I like the idea of hideing food and provisions but want to control the area outside of any bunker. If someone wants to take my home , I would prefer to flee the home and take it back after they sucomed to the poisen treats I left behind. It would be too easy to get trapped in a bunker.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

*What to do in a nuclear or radiation event?*

I understand the idea of a bunker being a tomb or death trap. But what would you do in the event of a nuclear or radiation event? My understanding is that the best way to surive one would be to be underground with a thick barrier and an L opening.


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## db2469 (Jun 11, 2012)

Unless I find a BOL, which would have to be at a location where there are other like-minded folks preparing for this, I'm going to HAVE to fortify and equip my cellar for survival purposes...there will only be a few tiny basement windows to be easily boarded up and one steel door that should keep them out...like I've said, only fire would be a problem (as far as the threat from others is concerned)...
DB


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

Obviously one must make the best of whatever situation in which one finds one's self, but I believe the gist of the general opinion is that it would not be an ideal option. In addition, it creates nearly as many problems as it solves. Nearly any aspect of prepping will include some level of compromise; I would say that the key issue seems to be whether or not the advantages out-weigh the disadvantages in regard to your particular situation.


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## db2469 (Jun 11, 2012)

Turtle said:


> Obviously one must make the best of whatever situation in which one finds one's self, but I believe the gist of the general opinion is that it would not be an ideal option. In addition, it creates nearly as many problems as it solves. Nearly any aspect of prepping will include some level of compromise; I would say that the key issue seems to be whether or not the advantages out-weigh the disadvantages in regard to your particular situation.


Yes, I'm a little surprised at the general opinion as I don't think that many homes will be torched when pretty much only survival means are what THEY are looking for..I think I can have a well dug right in my cellar (concrete floor) that would only have to go down 12 feet or so before hitting the water table, then install a manual pump...I realize there is strength in numbers and I would prefer to find a more rural BOL with others but I don't think that will happen...
DB


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## PFCHAWK (Jun 16, 2012)

Good thread


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

*and*



db2469 said:


> Yes, I'm a little surprised at the general opinion as I don't think that many homes will be torched when pretty much only survival means are what THEY are looking for..I think I can have a well dug right in my cellar (concrete floor) that would only have to go down 12 feet or so before hitting the water table, then install a manual pump...I realize there is stregth in numbers and I would prefer to find a more rural BOL with others but I don't think that will happen...
> DB


And because some don't want to be caught in a tomb, they won't consider a bunker even if it will be a matter of life or death relative to radiation or nuclear disaster.

It is all a crap shoot isn't it? We don't know what we will need and when or where. Someone may have a basement bunker but their house will burn down and they will die from the fire. Some may not have a bunker and their house never burns, but will not survive a nuclear event.

Prepping, what are we prepping for?


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## bunkerbob (Sep 29, 2009)

weedygarden said:


> And because some don't want to be caught in a tomb, they won't consider a bunker even if it will be a matter of life or death relative to radiation or nuclear disaster.
> 
> It is all a crap shoot isn't it? We don't know what we will need and when or where. Someone may have a basement bunker but their house will burn down and they will die from the fire. Some may not have a bunker and their house never burns, but will not survive a nuclear event.
> 
> Prepping, what are we prepping for?


Almost everthing, and I still like my "pit"

BB


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## Beaniemaster2 (May 22, 2012)

db2469, before I can reasonably comment, are you talking about a basement under your house or is this a root cellar type thing and how big is it???


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## dawnwinds58 (Jul 12, 2010)

I would not hide and have looters take everything I've gathered to survive in their greed, and people burn things just because they can. Most riot videos show you this. I don't want to risk the lives of my grandchildren on the chance that someone won't come up with this idea at my house after not burning so many others. It won't be a basement cellar where any military action or fire will bring the house down on you. We have a hillside shelter facility in the works. It is root cellar at the back with spring house run into it for refrigeration and water, and dryer, warmer shelter in from with toilet and power for heaters as well. It's three rooms connected, but the 3rd must be unsealed to use. There is a protective panel between them. It leads to my "cool smoke" smoke house where we cure our meat to make it accessible in an emergency. This provides meat and a vented location to cook, root cellar foods and water, and living quarters we wouldn't have to leave for a while. But, this is for life threatening conditions (radiation, weather, biological, etc.) not to hide from looters.

Whenever this subject comes up I try to direct members to this video.






It shook me up the first time I saw it, and never fails to set cold chills down my back.

The fact must be faced that there are some really bad people in this world, and they very likely outnumber the good ones, but there are "degrees" of bad. Hiding at the edge of our lives, are the "pack predators." They realize what they are at a very young age and find others like themselves to run with. Civilization is a thin, fragile veneer on them and it doesn't take much for them to shed that camo and show their true colors.

Without order, or fear of authority and punishment, they "hunt."

When it all goes down, for the first year at least, this is going to be a war of survival and you must be prepared to defend your food, your supplies, your equipment, your family, and your lives.

The "Golden Horde" of city dwellers will come out hungry, desperate, and willing to kill for what you have because they spent their lives laughing and scoffing at the possibility of their world collapsing. It won't matter that they were told to prepare; it won't matter how they scoffed at the preppers. They will be looking to take all of it so they don't have to prepare.

Any subdivision could become a death trap. A healthy well fed dog would enrage them when their children are crying with hunger or the pain in their bellies won't let them sleep. Seeing anyone, any where doing well will drive them mad, and they won't take "We can't support another family on what we have" as an answer; they won't accept responsibility for their failure to prepare.

Many children will be abandoned and roaming, also as packs, and now likely with weapons they have found. Children can be brutal and heartless after being let go for most of their lives.

The second video I recommend is this one.






This covers the effects of a pandemic taking out much of the population and driving the survivors to find way to feed themselves and deal with their "new world." It addresses possibilities that just hadn't ever occurred to me.

Sorry for the length of this. Just wanted to add my thoughts and get the info out there. Use it or not, eveyone has the right to choose. I just wanted it to be available to ponder on.


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## Beaniemaster2 (May 22, 2012)

*Did you miss my post???*



Beaniemaster2 said:


> db2469, before I can reasonably comment, are you talking about a basement under your house or is this a root cellar type thing and how big is it???


I do have some recommendations for you if you let me know what you are working with...


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## db2469 (Jun 11, 2012)

It's a finished room in our basement, a TV/computer room right now about 12'X 10' with only one very small window below the ceiling which I'm having boarded up and only one door leading downstairs to it where I'll hang a steel door...I would feel quite safe even with people rummaging around upstairs..
DB


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## benjaminblake (Jun 25, 2012)

I'd prefer to keep adequate supply of dry rations, drinking water and other bare necessities in preparation for any emergency.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

db2469 said:


> It's a finished room in our basement, a TV/computer room right now about 12'X 10' with only one very small window below the ceiling which I'm having boarded up and only one door leading downstairs to it where I'll hang a steel door...I would feel quite safe even with people rummaging around upstairs..
> DB


If it swings out and gets blocked you can't get out. Steel door swings into the room you can open the door and clear debris to get out?

And if the house is on fire, would you have a secondary exit?


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Plan on many cities burning(large and small). Like stated above riots always include starting things on fire, always. If it is bad enough so there is no one to fight the fires(or no water) then the whole town will burn. If there is wide spread looting they will go door-to-door-to-door. A locked door will mean that good stuff is behind it. I think if you are in any urban area you are toast(sorry) mainly from fires and looters.


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## db2469 (Jun 11, 2012)

TheLazyL said:


> If it swings out and gets blocked you can't get out. Steel door swings into the room you can open the door and clear debris to get out?
> 
> And if the house is on fire, would you have a secondary exit?


The door will swing in towards us on the stairs...and yes, fire is my biggest fear to safety as there is no other exit, but in a small rural town, folks setting fire to houses when they are starving and looking for food/water doesn't seem likely..
DB


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## VUnder (Sep 1, 2011)

Maybe you could go ahead and pour yourself a big, large, thick "paito" beside your house and then dig from the side of your cellar out, and end up under that slab.


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## Beaniemaster2 (May 22, 2012)

Thanks for the answer bd2469, now I can comment...

First, if there is a door, they will get thru it period, doesn't matter if it's steel and a secondary exit is a must or you're trapped...

Room sounds too small to partition off a safety room... This is what we had at out last location (we moved) and a few suggestions...

Is the window big enough to be used as an exit? Either way, I wouldn't board it up, I would put a basement air vent panel on the outside making it look like a crawl space and plant some bushes in front of it but not too close to the house that you couldn't get out... (Assuming of course you could redesign it to use as an exit) I never have figured out why people burn buildings down but have seen it done myself during the riots in Detroit in the 60's... What the heck is wrong with people??? Geeeeze 

Our last bunker was hidden behind a wall of shelves in the basement... The bottom shelf wall looked solid but when you pulled out the boxes on the bottom shelf we had a door that looked like the rest of the wall that entered in.. top of the door was where the shelf met so you could not see the divideing line, you could get in, pull the boxes back onto the shelf (full of junk nobody would be intereested in) and then the latch the door from the inside... Totally undectable designed by an Underground builder...
We had a secondary exit, air vents, 400 gal water tank that was fed from the well thru the tank, then into the house that ran on DC, toilet was attached to the house septic system but we had a stack of buckets for back up toilet and used peddle power for recharging the batterys for the DC lighting system, well pump etc... You will need a safe source of cooking, I suggest an alcohol stove or a sterno system, just about anything else would require venting... Not sure if they have DC stoves or not nowdays? hmmmmmm

My suggestion is to perhaps try and conceal the door upstairs with some form of shelves or a hanging peg board filled with hanging stuff, etc. that simply opens on hinges and closes behind you, I have seen many people show pictures of these on other forums just don't have the download to hunt them up for you, sorry, but you can do a search on concealing entrances... 

That's all I can think of at the moment but do post any questions you may have, people in here are wonderful and always willing to help.. Good Luck!!


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

db2469 said:


> The door will swing in towards us on the stairs...
> DB


I'd also suggest a "it looks permanent" bookcase/shelving that pulls out, you open the door in, turn around and pull the bookcase/shelving back against the door frame lock into place and the shut and par the door.

They can't break into a locked door if they can't see or find the door! 

Or you can get fancy....


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