# How much wood would a woodchuck chuck?



## Dadforfive (Mar 1, 2014)

Hi Ya'll. Here's the short and skinny. Its time to be self sufficient. Better late than never, huh? Wife and I are thinking goats, a few head of duel purpose cattle, rabbits, chickens and a pig. A good sized garden of course. Now for the question. Any ideas on how much land in Middle Tennessee we should be looking for? I am thinking 15 acres or so, but there is a heck of a steal on 8 1/2 that kinda fell into our laps. I don't think that is enough, but i HAVE been wrong before. Any ideas, advice or opinions? Thanks in advance.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

First off, good luck and I think it's a great choice to try to be more self-sufficient.:2thumb:

As to the question, that is a very subjective topic. Is 8.5 acres _enough_ to produce the majority of food for a family, I would say most likely yes if done intensively. A few head of cows though will require a fair bit of pasture, the key being they will produce a LOT of food. With more acres things tend to get easier; less intensive fencing and pasture rotations etc. Also, large areas tend to make firewood and other resources more readily available.

Personally I much prefer to have extra but that is not about what is "needed".


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

Hello and welcome to the forums!

I can not answer your questions, but I might be able to pose a few that could help people who are familiar with your area and family size to give "better" answers

1. How are you going to fund this? is this a BOL or is this going to be your family living off grid? and you have a start up capital amount to buy it?

2. Does the 8.5 acres have (clean) water, and far enough away from urban areas that you feel comfortable having your family there in an absence of emergency services as we know it today?

3. Have you researched and done the numbers on what you have to do to keep the .gov out of your life (today!!!) so that you can home school, grow gardens, raise livestock, and all of that... but maybe you do NOT have running water, an indoor toilet, whatever... (there are threads on this forum about it being relevant and recent in other states) The .gov will evict you from your own property if you cross them, if you're in the "wrong" area with the "wrong" views.

4. can you provide cash income while life is all warm and fuzzy before some kind of catastrophic event to cover things like doctors bills, gasoline purchases, new farm equipment, transportation that is street legal! 

just some of the things you have to consider. 

What you're talking about... It's a giant rubik's cube, and only those with massive amounts of expendable cash get to use a spoon to break off one of the corner pieces to disassemble the thing and put it back together with all the color sides in the right places. be careful of all the .gov problems you dont even know you'll have yet! :brickwall:


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## Dadforfive (Mar 1, 2014)

Sorry, I should have mentioned these things. There are 7 in the family, and probably the 4 parents in a SHTF situation, for how ever long they live. This is going to be an off the grid forever location,and my wife wants to keep working while I provide the food (hopefully) and handle the household. The land has a year round stream, and water under it for a well. I have been looking into solar and wind, and have also have ideas for heat and cooling (solar and geothermal). Its 65 miles outside of a major city, but between interstates, and kinda hard to find when you are looking for it, much less NOT looking for it.

I have been thinking in the "everythings OK" frame of mind for the present, but I will say, if it gets so bad that a BOL is needed, I have no problem using land to survive irreguardless of who's name is on the deed. If that makes me a bad guy, then so be it lol


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## camo2460 (Feb 10, 2013)

Dadforfive said:


> Sorry, I should have mentioned these things. There are 7 in the family, and probably the 4 parents in a SHTF situation, for how ever long they live. This is going to be an off the grid forever location,and my wife wants to keep working while I provide the food (hopefully) and handle the household. The land has a year round stream, and water under it for a well. I have been looking into solar and wind, and have also have ideas for heat and cooling (solar and geothermal). Its 65 miles outside of a major city, but between interstates, and kinda hard to find when you are looking for it, much less NOT looking for it.
> 
> I have been thinking in the "everythings OK" frame of mind for the present, but I will say, if it gets so bad that a BOL is needed, I have no problem using land to survive irreguardless of who's name is on the deed. If that makes me a bad guy, then so be it lol


I think you have a very good opportunity here with 8 1/2 acres to do what you want to do, you may have to do some intensive farming and switching things around every few years, but is doable. Oh, btw here's the answer to "how much wood would a Woodchuck chuck if a Woodchuck could chuck wood" He'd chuck as much as a Woodchuck could if a Woodchuck could chuck wood.


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## Wellrounded (Sep 25, 2011)

While we are on the subject of how much land can support how does everyone measure stocking rates? Here in Australia we use DSE, dry sheep equivalents. How many non lactating sheep can the land support per acre. A dairy cow is equal to 18-20 dry sheep. A meat steer from 8 to 10. 
We are in an area considered to be 2dse country... able to support 2 dry sheep per acre or one dairy cow per 10 acres. This is a very rough guide and is usually applied to larger acreages. It varies hugely of course from farm to farm.


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## Dadforfive (Mar 1, 2014)

OK, been doing a little more research and found what COULD be an answer to my problem of not enough land to suit me (and no, its not buy more land lol). Turns out they bred MINATURE cattle!!! Who'd thunk it? My family does not use alot of milk a day, so a few gallons a day still give me food for calves and pigs besides milk, butter and cheeze. They also use about 1/3 to 1/2 of the grazing area of full sized cattle. Sure, you only get half the meat, but that is less to store, and when it runs low, time to butcher another. Any opinions are greatly appreciated.


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## Woody (Nov 11, 2008)

I'll chime in here. Being a Woodchuck, one and a half cords a day, if it is bucked and stacked/piled. Cutting and bucking, two cords. This does not take into account putting onto and hauling to where you need the wood, that depends on your terrain. Weather is another HUGE consideration. Early spring splitting and stacking that cord and a half is an easy proposition. Heck, you stand and slam then toss near the stack location and you are good to go. For a winter's worth it could be done in two weekends. Of course, it never works out like that. You start on Sat morning, a neighbor stops by and needs help... Sun morning you start again... The truck won't start and you need to go get parts to fix it. Mon through Fri work. Next Sat you pile into it... it starts to rain. Sat afternoon company stops by (family) so you have to be sociable and take time to chat..... Any way you look at it, it is a year round job to put up wood.

I cut trees in the fall, after the sap ran out and before the snows come. Cut and buck, leaving them right there. If I heeded a little to get by there are always a few dead branched or deadfalls you can load up. Springtime, after the thaw, load the pieces up and haul to the yard. Split in the cool spring, stack and you are good to go for winter. This was in NE PA, oak, beech, maple woods.

I had 70+- acres that I figured I could manage to get firewood for my lifetime off of, properly managed.

For cattle, sheep, chickens and the rest I cannot say. I never had animals other than the dog. The garden however, took up a TON of time and space!

Back to space. 8 or 9 acres seems pretty low to me, for producing for that crowd you have planned on in TN. Cowboyhermit and Wellrounded have a much better grasp of how much land is required. You should look into major land rotation and intensive use. This does not seem like something that should be tried when the time comes but should be worked out long before hand. Can you really rotate fields between your chosen stock? Do you really need milk? Would goats milk do instead of cows milk? Maybe rabbits instead of cows for meat? Are there wild boars to hunt instead of raising them on your land?

There are a lot of variables and lots depends on what you expect. Do you expect to live the same lifestyle you do now or are you and your crew willing to change?


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Dadforfive said:


> OK, been doing a little more research and found what COULD be an answer to my problem of not enough land to suit me (and no, its not buy more land lol). Turns out they bred MINATURE cattle!!! Who'd thunk it? My family does not use alot of milk a day, so a few gallons a day still give me food for calves and pigs besides milk, butter and cheeze. They also use about 1/3 to 1/2 of the grazing area of full sized cattle. Sure, you only get half the meat, but that is less to store, and when it runs low, time to butcher another. Any opinions are greatly appreciated.


Here are some links to where a lot of people have given their opinions in the past;
http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f35/required-acreage-homesteading-19698/
http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f35/micro-livestock-farming-20456/

Miniature cattle can be a viable option. They have some drawbacks imo, high cost of breeding stock, less ability to graze (large cattle can eat leaves 6ft high), not as immune to predators as cows, cold hardiness etc. They also imo have not reached the overall level of refinement genetically of older breeds. They do retain many of the advantages of cattle; able to survive solely on grass, less fencing required than other animals, etc.

If you want cows milk and you eat beef and also have a large family then a milk cow or two could provide huge returns. There are many smaller heritage breeds that might fit your situation nicely, IIRC Wellrounded has experience with milking dexters for instance, they have a good reputation and are a small breed. Old breeds of cattle come in a wide spectrum of sizes and types.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Here where it is winter for at least 6 months of the year, we have figured out that it takes 5 acres to feed a big range cow and her calf to weaning At 500 ot 600 pounds, you need good land and good management procedures to get this production. pasture is the most productive way to feed cattle and pasture needs to be carefully managed. rotation is really important, pastures need to be sized so that your heard can graze them in 4 days, this way the growth is kept young and provides a lot more food value per acre. Cows eat grass, as in the whole plant. feeding separated grain causes problems with the rumen. 

So not knowing what kind of land you would get it is hard to say what the production rate would be, or how many months you could pasture the cattle. Pasture production while it is actively growing can support 1 cow calf pair on about an acre here for the 4 months that the pasture really grows, 

A couple of things to consider are who owns the adjoining land and could you rent it fairly cheaply, is there public land somewhere near that you could legally harvest fire wood from?, Some more to think about....


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