# Emp scenario... Gas at stations



## invision

N an EMP scenario, most vehicles will not run, and with an older model car/truck it should run if it has carb and points... So my question is how would some liberate gas from gas stations? I know there are lids covering the tanks, and a long hose with a hand crank would allow you to pump out gas, but isn't there locking mechanism? How do you get around that?


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## OldCootHillbilly

Most a ours round here have a metal lid over the top a the connection point. The connection point got a paddelock on it. The connection point be engineered ta lock on the filler hose from the tanker, but, it don't stop ya from cuttin the paddelock an runnin a hose down inta the tank an pullin out fuel with a hand pump.

Last year er so ago, somebody with a trailer parked over the the fill points an was there a very long time. Come ta find out they was pumpin fuel inta cans in the trailer from a hole in the floor.


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## Marcus

In a post SHTF scenario, I'd look to a 12V pump to tie in at the existing pump.


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## invision

I thought there was a key needed to actually get the lids off of them... Isn't that the case or would a crowbar work? Bolt cutters for the lock not an issue


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## Moby76065

I'm going to steal yours.


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## Marcus

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200365612_200365612


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## drissel

I would suggest a cutting torch!!


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## Jimmy24

If you have a genset that runs, just wire it to the pump breaker and use the stations pump. That is the way it has been done in all the 'canes around here for years. Course no genset, that won't work. Doesn't take a big one either.

Jimmy


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## Jason

drissel said:


> I would suggest a cutting torch!!


I really hope this was sarcasm!


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## Padre

invision said:


> N an EMP scenario, most vehicles will not run, and with an older model car/truck it should run if it has carb and points... So my question is how would some liberate gas from gas stations? I know there are lids covering the tanks, and a long hose with a hand crank would allow you to pump out gas, but isn't there locking mechanism? How do you get around that?


Why would you bother? If an EMP really knocks out most cars then wouldn't you think the gas would go bad before you used all the gas in all the tanks of all the dead cars? I mean why worry about using a "cutting torch" to get a lid off an underground tank when a screwdriver, pan, and funnel could get you a full tank any time you wanted one?

There are 254,212,610 passenger cars (never mind commercial vehicles including tanker trucks) if 95% of them weren't running and they all had just 10 gallons of fuel in their tanks that means there wold be almost 200 gallons available per working car, just from the passenger cars.


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## bahramthered

That amount would diminish very rapidly as people purpose the gas for any number of reasons. From starting fires to Movtal cocktails. And plus 200 gallons isn't a lot long term. I'd call that 13 fill ups for my truck, which would last me under normal circumstances 26 weeks. I seriously doubt it'd be normal usage.


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## Kenny78

I think padre was alluding to the fact that the world would be so upside down that you won't need the truck to go to Starbucks. You would be target #1 For all those people making Molotov cocktails. But, the more options/knowledge you have the better.


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## mojo4

Well its still a great idea to have fuel hand pumps available. Just because someoneks car isn't running doesn't mean its free gas. If my car is fried and someone is punching holes in my gas tank to get my gas expect big problems. Getting gas from the station?? I'm just jealous cause my cars are dead. I might even help out for a ride somewhere!!


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## invision

mojo4 said:


> Well its still a great idea to have fuel hand pumps available. Just because someoneks car isn't running doesn't mean its free gas. If my car is fried and someone is punching holes in my gas tank to get my gas expect big problems. Getting gas from the station?? I'm just jealous cause my cars are dead. I might even help out for a ride somewhere!!


Precisely... If I don't have a non-computer based car when this happens, which I don't right now. One thing would be try to get a ride with someone who does, have the knowledge and tools to get to the gas - larger quantities is a trading option. We have a small gas station around the corner, only one for 8 miles ago, neighbor has an Eleanor Mustang...


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## Jezcruzen

Well, just don't attempt to steal fuel from my station, or any one else's for that matter. You may just get lite up and left laying on the pavement to discourage other thieves.


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## mojo4

Well that's my point jez. If you own a gas station and cars that don't work and no way to turn on electric pumps I'm willing to bet that a trade of gas for a ride suddenly becomes attractive. Have pickup will travel!


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## LincTex

Get a small internal fuel pump from the fuel tank of an EFI car. 

You can run it from a 12 volt battery... lower it down to the fuel level (they do not "suck" at all) and it will deliver fuel at 50+ psi up to your waiting cans (about a gallon every 30-45 seconds) easily, even if 20 feet above liquid level. 

MOST fuel pumps do NOT suck well... about 3 feet max.


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## Marcus

LincTex said:


> MOST fuel pumps do NOT suck well... about 3 feet max.


That was my thinking too and why I suggested tying in at the pump itself. Plus I think it'd be easier for security purposes since you're not spending a lot of time looking down. I don't know if the actual pumps are 120V or 240V, but an inverter to power the pump (or a genset) may make even more sense.


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## IlliniWarrior

*20 foot+ Lift? >>>>>>> No Way*



Marcus said:


> http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200365612_200365612


the OP is talking about lifting out of a gas station underground storage tank ..... utmost you need a flammable approved pump ..... 2nd you need a good 25 foot lift capacity on that portable pump ..... good luck .....


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## machinist

Since the station I use is owned by a friend of mine, and another friend has the auto parts store across the street, I'm sure we could figure out something together to get the station back in business. 

FWIW, car fuel pumps get some cooling from being immersed in the fuel. Not important unless were to be used for an extended period in free air. Normally, they need to be immersed because as someone said, they don't lift, they are just designed to "push" fuel. AND, car fuel pumps have the wire connections on the OUTSIDE of the fuel tank, not a small consideration. DON'T RUN WIRES INTO A FUEL TANK!!!

The big consideration in pumping fuel is, of course, fire prevention. Any improvised setup would likely have serious dangers, so you're much better off using the genny to run the station pump, as suggested above. 

Of course, if you are stealing the gas, who am I to get in the way of you burning yourself up?


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## LincTex

Marcus said:


> ....tying in at the pump itself..... an inverter to power the pump (or a genset) may make even more sense.


With all the microprocessor stuff in modern pumps.... even if you get power in to it, how do you get it to turn on and actually dispense?


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## Tirediron

the pump and motor themselves should still be simple mechanical devices, the electronics and metering section might have to be bypassed, the idea of a fuelinjection pump with long wires and hose is prolly the easiest ,because it is vehicle or 12V powered as long as the said fuel's actual owner agrees with the fuel removal.


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## Magus

Gods at the n00bs 

Get a WATER pump from a LARGE truck and block the back with a metal plate sealed with blue glue.

Mount said plate to a wooden platform.

Power it with a crank lawnmower motor or 12v silent electric motor.

People have been stealing gas 55 gallons at a time for decades around here with this rig.they just park a van with a cut out floor over the tanks,send someone in to distract, and fill up a drum in the back.

Dad ran a gas station 30 years, here's how you beat this:
Insert a piece of pipe with the sides cut out down the main hole just long enough to stick up a foot
and weld a rebar "X" over the receiving end, gas goes in, NOTHING comes out that way.when its time to change tanks, put a hook on a rope and pull it up.


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## LincTex

Magus said:


> Get a WATER pump from a LARGE truck and block the back with a metal plate sealed with blue glue.


I like you, Magus.... but this is total B.S.

The blue silicone sealer gets eaten by gas pretty quick, but the main reason this is BS is because that water pump needs to be *primed* first somehow... and they have zero suction head. I don't think they have a lot of pressure head, either... maybe 10 feet?

Even if you *DID* get it primed, it would need to be no more than 1 foot or two above the surface you are sucking from, so good luck getting it down the hole.

As an aside, old car/truck water pumps do create a lot of flow, so if you are dabbling in Aquaponics, they have a use there.


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## Padre

Kenny78 said:


> I think padre was alluding to the fact that the world would be so upside down that you won't need the truck to go to Starbucks. You would be target #1 For all those people making Molotov cocktails. But, the more options/knowledge you have the better.


Quite frankly, there are two schools of thought, an EMP will wipe out EVERYTHING with a IC or just delicate things. Either of these two options make the issue moot. If everything, then my estimation of 5% of cars working is way high. You have to go back to the early 80s to find EMP proof cars. That's a 30 year old car, how many of us honestly drive a 30 year old car? Unless you are a mechanic and can rebuild one, an EMP proof car is going to be more rare than a politician (I think there are a less than dozen in Congress now or less than 3%) who really wants to cut taxes and reduce spending less money at that same time. If an EMP happens and its not a big deal, as a few on this site have argued then if many cars are working why not many pumps, which are much less automated than cars today?

I agree the more options the better, but this whole line of thought reeks of normalcy bias. Someone said 200 gallons is ONLY 13 refills, well its less than 10 tanks worth for my truck (which won't work after an EMP). In my truck a tank will get me about 350 miles, so ten tanks is 3500 miles. I do that in 2 months now, but if the power is off, long term, after I get to my BOL I doubt I will drive 2000 miles in 2 years, or the average life of gas with corn gunk added to it...

I think EMP is a worse case SHTF scenario, particularly CME cause EMP (rather than a strategic HEMP weapon that would affect a smaller area of the world), as it could wipe out not just the US but all industrialize economic activity in the world. If an EMP hits, get some gas, get to where you are going, and stay put. Learning how to ride will come in much more useful than stealing gas from a gas station.


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## Padre

Also, I would guess that the major part of vehicles that would work post SHTF are diesel.

So here are two more useful factoids:

1) Home heating oil (usually stored in tanks above ground) is diesel with a special dye in it because road taxes have not been paid on it. 

2) AviationGas, although you have to be careful of the octane, is usually store in tanker trucks at airports and doesn't have corn gunk (ethanol) in it and will store twice as long.

So if you are one of the luck folk who have a working car post SHTF, get some of this stuff stored, and then don't use it unless you have too, because the world is going to get pretty mean pretty quickly.


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## LincTex

Padre said:


> In my truck a tank will get me about 350 miles, so ten tanks is 3500 miles. I do that in 2 months now, but if the power is off, long term, after I get to my BOL I doubt I will drive 2000 miles in 2 years, or the average life of gas with corn gunk added to it...


Yeah, but....

At my BOL, I have gasoline powered equipment such as:

a Farmall "H" with a magneto 
a Farmall "C" with points/battery ignition
A Honda 13 HP powered Coleman Generator
A Troy-Bilt "Horse" rototiller 
A Stihl "Farm Boss" chainsaw
A Husq "55" chainsaw
An old motorcycle

All the smaller stuff is stored in a shipping container.

So if all of the gas-powered eqpt goes Tango Uniform, I will be back to manual labor - - - - BUT if *any* survive, I will be using them for as long as I can. I have stored gas, but I will be soliciting the gas from vehicles as much as I can before I tap into my stabilized stash.


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## LincTex

Padre said:


> Also, I would guess that the major part of vehicles that would work post SHTF are diesel.
> 
> So if you are one of the lucky folk who have a working car post SHTF, get some of this stuff stored, and then don't use it unless you have too, because the world is going to get pretty mean pretty quickly.


Yep - I have one of these in a small tractor with a few useful things hooked up to it (Generator, Alternator, Air Compressor). It starts with a crank.


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## Padre

How much Gas can you store? If you don't have a car working how are you going to get it? After the first few weeks of promises that the lights are coming back on, I think it'll be too risky to leave home. Just my 2 cents.

Look into requisitioning a tanker truck, perhaps, if you can find a way to haul the gas...

If the lights go out you need to stop looking for gas and start looking ASAP for manual tools that will work for you long term, anyway, I will stop being the naysayer on this thread.


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## LincTex

Padre said:


> 1) How much Gas can you store?
> 2) If you don't have a car working how are you going to get it?


1) That's classified
2) I didn't list all my toys


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## Padre

Kudos to you LincTex


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## Magus

LincTex said:


> I like you, Magus.... but this is total B.S.
> 
> The blue silicone sealer gets eaten by gas pretty quick, but the main reason this is BS is because that water pump needs to be *primed* first somehow... and they have zero suction head. I don't think they have a lot of pressure head, either... maybe 10 feet?
> 
> Even if you *DID* get it primed, it would need to be no more than 1 foot or two above the surface you are sucking from, so good luck getting it down the hole.
> 
> As an aside, old car/truck water pumps do create a lot of flow, so if you are dabbling in Aquaponics, they have a use there.


Oh really? My dad ran a GAS STATION 30 years, is that BS too ?
FINE, use whatever you have on hand to seal it.priming it is a DUH.*{AND NOT THAT HARD!}*
dude, they steal gas every night in this town using the same rig.go back and watch football or something.


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## marlas1too

i have a inverter on my truck that I can connect a fuel pump to to draw fuel up


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