# Could a big EMP from a solar flare make society collapse.



## lexsurivor

We all know that America's society is very fragile. I don't know how people would react if something like this. I cant imagine they would take this very well. Remember the Eastern sea board black out? Well its believed that some of these solar flares could shut an even bigger area down. I think society will crumble if a big enough one occurs along with raised food prices caused by the BP oil spill. So what do you think?[Note]: The oil could stretch all the way across the atlantic ocean if it raches the gulf stream.


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## HarleyRider

Absolutely!! :surrender:


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## HarleyRider

Due to the fragile nature of our aging power grid, and our dependence on computers and computing systems for maintaining the grid operations, a really HUGE EMP pulse would bring the whole grid down. I don't believe our backup systems (if any) could get the grid back into operation for at least 12-36 months. 

Those of us with motor vehicles (pre-1970) should still find them in operation since they don't use electronics to regulate the engine. Anything post-1970 probably won't run without extensive modifications.

Without air conditioning, a whole lot of big buildings will turn into ovens since a lot of them don't even have windows to open to allow natural cooling. There will be tremendous losses of life due to heat stroke or heat exhaustion, especially among the elderly, and especially in cities like Los Vegas.

The moving around of goods and services will be seriously impacted and food shortages will bring massive starvation.

Crime will skyrocket, due to greed or just the need to survive while being unprepared.

Now the good news... we preppers are way ahead of the curve when and if this happens. We have stockpiled food, water, medicines, fuel, clothing, etc.  We have places to move to or live in that probably will be minimally affected by EMP. We are prepared for the looters and have the means to defend ourselves and our families. 

Most of us could "comfortably" survive for a year, a lot us us could "comfortably" survive for two-five years, and some of could "comfortable" survive for six-fifty years or more.

Lets keep on prepping until we are all in the six-fifty year range so we don't have to worry what tomorrow will bring. :soapbox2:


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## Sourdough

Suggested Reading: "One Second After" by William R. Frostchen


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## lexsurivor

i fear that this could send this country to its knees. im starting to get into prepping. im on my way home from vacation and when i get home tonight im goint to dig a hole and start putting can foods and water bottles in a garbage bag and bury it. Im going to go threw 9th grade as normal once it starts but i will be stocking up and preparing for whats about to come


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## NaeKid

I wouldn't suggest taking food and bury it, unless it is a seed and it will give you more food. Your better bet would be to build shelves in a cool / dark place (unfinished section of the basement, under the stairs maybe) and start filling those shelves with as much food supplies (dried, canned, bottled) as you can possibly fit on those shelves.

With the food supplies being stocked up (don't go and spend $1000 on food if you can only afford an extra $200) start bottling your own water. Food-grade 50 gallon drums that seal-up can also be stashed in the basement (best to put near the floor-drains incase of a leakage). Next, stock up on cleaning supplies - toothbrushs, toothpaste, mouthwash, body-soap, baby-wipes, BIC razors, etc and stash them all in a basement closet, in your BOB, in your BOT/BOV at work / school / etc.

Next, start putting some money into hiking filter-systems that will take any running-water and make it drinkable. Katadyn is one of the biggest names in filters with many other companies doing great stuff. You can also look at the filter-systems used in aquariums to purify water. If you want filter-systems for your BOT (Bug Out Trailer), look at a company like WaterTiger for pumps / filters that will allow you to fill the holding tank on your trailer with fresh, drinkable water.


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## Sourdough

lexsurivor said:


> Im going to go threw 9th grade as normal once it starts but i will be stocking up and preparing for whats about to come


Do I understand you are in 9th grade, and about 15'ish years old....???


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## Elinor0987

NaeKid said:


> With the food supplies being stocked up (don't go and spend $1000 on food if you can only afford an extra $200) start bottling your own water. Food-grade 50 gallon drums that seal-up can also be stashed in the basement (best to put near the floor-drains incase of a leakage). Next, stock up on cleaning supplies - toothbrushs, toothpaste, mouthwash, body-soap, baby-wipes, BIC razors, etc and stash them all in a basement closet, in your BOB, in your BOT/BOV at work / school / etc.


That reminded me of a question I had a while back but forgot to ask. There are potassium iodide pills that are used to counter the effects of nuclear radiation exposure, but would they work with cosmic radiation? I wasn't able to find the answer in any of the articles I've read. I know that we are exposed to solar radiation everyday with sunlight but our atmosphere filters out most of it. With the possibility of coronal mass ejections hammering our atmosphere in a severe solar storm, wouldn't the pills be good to store with the rest of the supplies?


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## NaeKid

I don't believe that the radiation from the sun will harm us beyond giving us a really good tan (sun-burn) unless the radiation is microwave based and it cooks us from the inside-out (just like a microwave oven). If that is the case, I don't care how many pills a person pops, without being in a radiation-safe place (like underground in an iron-mine) we all will be cooked equally and there wouldn't be anything that we could really do about it.

If the sun cooks the earth (as described in the movie 2012), I believe that the only "safe" places would be at or near the north/south poles.


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## horseman09

Elinor0987 said:


> That reminded me of a question I had a while back but forgot to ask. There are potassium iodide pills that are used to counter the effects of nuclear radiation exposure, but would they work with cosmic radiation? I wasn't able to find the answer in any of the articles I've read. I know that we are exposed to solar radiation everyday with sunlight but our atmosphere filters out most of it. With the possibility of coronal mass ejections hammering our atmosphere in a severe solar storm, wouldn't the pills be good to store with the rest of the supplies?


Elinor, potassium iodide pills are used to "fill up" the thyroid gland (a bow tie shaped gland in your throat just below the jaw) with harmless iodine so radioactive forms of iodine (isotopes) from radioactive fallout (hot dust) cannot be absorbed by the thyroid and cause problems including cancer.

That protection is important, but it only protects the thyroid. Therefore, potassium iodide pills will not protect any other body organ, nor will it protect you from direct external radioactivity. PI is still important though, because the thyroid seems to be a "magnet" for some forms of radioactive material commonly found in nuclear reactions, whether power plants or bombs.

Having said that, IMHO, every family should have a 30 day supply of PI.


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## Kriket

lexsurivor said:


> im goint to dig a hole and start putting can foods and water bottles in a garbage bag and bury it. Im going to go threw 9th grade as normal once it starts but i will be stocking up and preparing for whats about to come


Welcome  for sure read around the forum and Google anything that comes to mind! There is a lot to learn about prepping, very little has to do with food and water in a hole, but it's a good start! You're thinking!

Also, you go through events, threw is what a pitcher did to a ball. Then there is thorough, which is what you should be when prepping. :sssh:

I was around your age when I really started thinking about prepping. I come from a long line of preppers, but about 16 is when you start thinking of yourself as an adult and an individual.


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## nj_m715

If you're feeling lazy, just go youtube type in longterm food storage and start watching.


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## lexsurivor

Yes sourdough im 15'ish. But does it really matter if im 15 and a prepper? Also Microwaves dont cook from the inside out they vibrate water witch creates friction and heat. Also even if your off the grid it will ruin most electronics anyways. Unless you have them in a faraday cage.


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## lexsurivor

Kriket said:


> Welcome  for sure read around the forum and Google anything that comes to mind! There is a lot to learn about prepping, very little has to do with food and water in a hole, but it's a good start! You're thinking!
> 
> Also, you go through events, threw is what a pitcher did to a ball. Then there is thorough, which is what you should be when prepping. :sssh:
> 
> I was around your age when I really started thinking about prepping. I come from a long line of preppers, but about 16 is when you start thinking of yourself as an adult and an individual.


Thanks for the welcome. Also sorry about the grammar I was using my phone and the battery was about to die.


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## gypsysue

It sounds like a good place to start, burying a garbage bag of food and water. Do that first, then plan your next step!


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## lexsurivor

I just finished my BOB in it is...
1 gallon of water (i know its the bare minumum im going to double it)
2 bags of beef jerky for protein
3 small peanut butter containers
crackers
3 tubs of apple sause (the ones in the small packages)
a pen
a notebook
a watch
sunflower seeds
can of greenbeens
and tuna
anything I should add/remove


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## horseman09

lexsurivor said:


> I just finished my BOB in it is...
> 1 gallon of water (i know its the bare minumum im going to double it)
> 2 bags of beef jerky for protein
> 3 small peanut butter containers
> crackers
> 3 tubs of apple sause (the ones in the small packages)
> a pen
> a notebook
> a watch
> sunflower seeds
> can of greenbeens
> and tuna
> anything I should add/remove


Lex, any start is a good start, because that means you are thinking.

A couple things.........Are your parents thinking SHTF at all? If not, try to subtly direct them by pointing out some of the ominous global economic news to them. YOU should be reading the news and sharing it with your folks. It might take a little time, but be patient. Try to get them in your camp. That is crucial. You can't do this without them. They are your family. Be a constructive influence.

As for your list, it is a good start. You might want to think a little bigger. A gallon of water is good, but how about water purification tabs? Walmart camping department......dirt cheap.

Fire for cooking and warmth? A can opener? Sanitary items? Don't forget the gals' needs. No need to blush. It is a necessity. Larger amounts of foodstuffs like beans, rice, etc is a good thing. Lots of canned goods and LOTS of available water. Think family.

Most importantly, don't let this dominate your life. Prepperation is a good thing. Obsessing is not. You are young. Enjoy your youth.


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## lexsurivor

horseman09 said:


> Lex, any start is a good start, because that means you are thinking.
> 
> A couple things.........Are your parents thinking SHTF at all? If not, try to subtly direct them by pointing out some of the ominous global economic news to them. YOU should be reading the news and sharing it with your folks. It might take a little time, but be patient. Try to get them in your camp. That is crucial. You can't do this without them. They are your family. Be a constructive influence.
> 
> As for your list, it is a good start. You might want to think a little bigger. A gallon of water is good, but how about water purification tabs? Walmart camping department......dirt cheap.
> 
> Fire for cooking and warmth? A can opener? Sanitary items? Don't forget the gals' needs. No need to blush. It is a necessity. Larger amounts of foodstuffs like beans, rice, etc is a good thing. Lots of canned goods and LOTS of available water. Think family.
> 
> Most importantly, don't let this dominate your life. Prepperation is a good thing. Obsessing is not. You are young. Enjoy your youth.


Im not a girl... Lex refers to a place where I live
Also my dad Is preparing for when TSHTF he has started camping and buying supplies to prepare. My mom on the otherhand is not very weary of it... although she did buy some emergency water bottles shes going to need some more convincing. (my parents are divorced but they get along great. my dad was watching her cats for 2 weeks)


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## horseman09

lexsurivor said:


> Im not a girl... Lex refers to a place where I live
> Also my dad Is preparing for when TSHTF he has started camping and buying supplies to prepare. My mom on the otherhand is not very weary of it... although she did buy some emergency water bottles shes going to need some more convincing. (my parents are divorced but they get along great. my dad was watching her cats for 2 weeks)


Lex, I wasn't inferring that you are a girl. I surmised by your posts that you are male. What I meant was, that you probably have females in your family, therefore, you need to be sensitive to their needs. As an old goat with a wife and 3 daughters, I learned a long time ago that ya gotta keep the gals happy. 

You are fortunate that your Dad is a prepper. Maybe you can encourage him to take a peek at this forum. Lots of good info and very knowledgable preppers here. We can all learn a lot from "The Gang" here.

I don't mean to give you unasked-for advice, but I'd be patient, subtle but gently persistent with your Mom. She'll come around.

Good luck, Lex.


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## lexsurivor

Untill she does ill just make a BOB for her and my brother and cats until they do. I know that some people are going to critisize me for taking the cats but they mean alot to me and my family. Our old cat who was 21 died last year and my mom just seemed sad because she had known the cat for half of her life and she is happy now that we have 2 cats again and she couldent leave them behind. Also they are good mousers and have caught several rabbits.(food if your desperate)


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## Aemilia

Welcome. Those must be awesome cats to catch a rabbit! I have a 20 year old cat and she will go with me if we leave. The only exception I guess is if every second counted and she was hiding. But that would be a _really_ bad scenario anyway. Its a good thing to plan for them.


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## lexsurivor

Aemilia said:


> Welcome. Those must be awesome cats to catch a rabbit! I have a 20 year old cat and she will go with me if we leave. The only exception I guess is if every second counted and she was hiding. But that would be a _really_ bad scenario anyway. Its a good thing to plan for them.


 My dads cat is the one that catches the rabbits but mabey shell train the rest lol. But she catches them and birds even though shes declawed. One day I look out my window and she jumps 5ft in the air and snags a bird with her teeth.


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## mdprepper

lexsurivor said:


> I just finished my BOB in it is...
> 1 gallon of water (i know its the bare minumum im going to double it)
> 2 bags of beef jerky for protein
> 3 small peanut butter containers
> crackers
> 3 tubs of apple sause (the ones in the small packages)
> a pen
> a notebook
> a watch
> sunflower seeds
> can of greenbeens
> and tuna
> anything I should add/remove


Add a can opener. Perhaps some baby wipes, wet naps. Hygiene is important. Perhaps a few first aid supplies (bandaids, alcohol prep pads).

Good start!!!


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## HarleyRider

*If an EMP pulse wipes the slate clean....*

Perhaps we should try to figure out a way for all of us to stay in touch if the grid goes to crud? Maybe a gathering point by state or region?


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## lexsurivor

I have changed my BOB around some but heres whats in it.
2 gallons of water
3-4 protein bars
3 protein water mix
3 propel mix
tuna
2 bags of beff jerky
1 bag of sunflower seeds
1 Long sleeve under armor shirt (vary helpful can be used as a bag)
2 pairs of socks and underware (if it is cold or its raining)
3 fruitroll ups (comfort food)
3 cans of apple sause
crackers
3 small containers of peanutbutter
greenbean can
watch
pen
notebook
spoon
fork
and I always carry 2 pocket knives with a saw on one and a good pair of scissors the other one has about a 3in blade. I also have a refillable lighter with an extra butane can good for 20 refils.
I plan on adding a can opener
clorox wipes
germx
toothbrush and tooth paste
and some first aid stuff like peroxide and other things


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## gypsysue

lex- great BOB! 

harley- I agree, we should find others in our region. Some of us have exchanged Ham radio call signs, but another thought is that if you see someone on here who lists their location as somewhat near you, send them a PM (personal message) on here and see if they're interested in exchanging info as something of a support group.

Anyone in reasonable range to NW Montana, please contact us if you want. Four of us on this board already know each other and have met face-to-face up here.


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## GroovyMike

This is teh premise of the book "Solar Flare" by Larry Burkett. The book had potential but Larry was obviously not a prepper so fell pretty short on the details that I think could have made teh book better.


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## TotallyReady

*Totally Ready*

It is so exciting to see someone so young thinking about how he can care for himself rather than thinking about how others can care for him. Way to go Lex!
I have just started a new series of posts about food storage because I am so concerned about the economy. I have also done several posts about the dangers of EMPs and solar flares. I do believe a mega solar flare, such as NASA expects or an EMP would see our economy and thus society collapse. Please check them out at The Totally Ready Blog

I would take the jerky out of your kit. Never put anything salty in your kits as it will increase thirst and speed dehydration. I would also avoid any foods which need to be reconstituted as water will be limited if you are bugging out.

Good luck!


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## lexsurivor

Thanks gypsysue.
The sad thing is the BOB only carrys enough water for 1 mabey 2 days.


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## Kriket

lexsurivor said:


> I have changed my BOB around some but heres whats in it.
> 2 gallons of water
> 3-4 protein bars
> 3 protein water mix
> 3 propel mix
> tuna
> 2 bags of beff jerky
> 1 bag of sunflower seeds
> 1 Long sleeve under armor shirt (vary helpful can be used as a bag)
> 2 pairs of socks and underware (if it is cold or its raining)
> 3 fruitroll ups (comfort food)
> 3 cans of apple sause
> crackers
> 3 small containers of peanutbutter
> greenbean can
> watch
> pen
> notebook
> spoon
> fork
> and I always carry 2 pocket knives with a saw on one and a good pair of scissors the other one has about a 3in blade. I also have a refillable lighter with an extra butane can good for 20 refils.
> I plan on adding a can opener
> clorox wipes
> germx
> toothbrush and tooth paste
> and some first aid stuff like peroxide and other things


nice, now you need to think about shelter, A plastic tarp can be a million things.

We are soooo off topic  it happens.


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## lexsurivor

Does any one know how to make a faraday cage?


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## HarleyRider

Yep. It's really easy. Pick up an old broken microware oven, put your stuff inside, and close the door. Instant faraday cage. :2thumb:


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## lexsurivor

would a plain metal box work too?


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## NaeKid

lexsurivor said:


> would a plain metal box work too?


It has been said that using a metal filing-cabinet with foam between the wall and the electronics will work well as a faraday cage. If you can, use spray-foam and line the inside of a filing-cabinet then place your laptop into its case and place inside the foam-lined steel-drawer. Again, a fairly quick and inexpensive faraday-cage.

Using a metal-shed outside for larger (and dirty) items will also work as a faraday-cage. Lay out a wooden floor, cover with thin-guage steel (galvanized is best - will not rust easily), mount the tin-shed onto the metal-sheathed floor, insulate and then place several filing-cabinets across the back. Fill drawers with automotive-parts that could be damaged via EMP and then close all the doors. Again - a simple and effective solution.


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## lexsurivor

Thanks for the info.


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## TotallyReady

Be sure the items you are trying to protect do not touch any metal surface. the impulse will travel around the metal until it weakens so if the metal touches metal it's cooked, literally. Also If you are using a micro wave you must cut off the cord or the impulse can travel up the cord and inside.


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## lexsurivor

What would you put in a faraday cage? I would put any type of radios, generators, lights, and water pumps.


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## gypsysue

For those on solar power, you might want to put an extra inverter (even just a cheap wallyworld inverter) and charge controller in a faraday cage., just in case.

Will a gun safe, the heavy metal kind, work as a faraday cage? I've been keeping my spare laptop computer in ours.


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## NaeKid

gypsysue said:


> Will a gun safe, the heavy metal kind, work as a faraday cage? I've been keeping my spare laptop computer in ours.


Is your gun-safe lined with padding? Is there any point on the safe that has exposed metal inside where the laptop will be able to connect to it? If the "outside" metal cannot touch the laptop, you _should be_ quite alright.

Of course, I cannot make any promises, but, with your situation being off-grid and a fair distance from any minor center and a significant distance from a major center (city of over 1 million people), I don't foresee any real issues for you.


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## gypsysue

The gun safe is one of those that weigh a few hundred pounds and has the felt lining inside. It does have lag bolts that go through from the inside into the log walls of our cabin, so maybe something to prevent direct contact with those. Maybe silicone caulk dabbed thickly over the bolt heads? Or just make sure the computer isn't contacting any of them. 

Right now it's wedged on it's side between a couple of rifle stocks. Along with the spare cheapo inverter, etc.!


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## VUnder

HarleyRider said:


> Due to the fragile nature of our aging power grid, and our dependence on computers and computing systems for maintaining the grid operations, a really HUGE EMP pulse would bring the whole grid down. I don't believe our backup systems (if any) could get the grid back into operation for at least 12-36 months.
> 
> Those of us with motor vehicles (pre-1970) should still find them in operation since they don't use electronics to regulate the engine. Anything post-1970 probably won't run without extensive modifications.
> 
> Without air conditioning, a whole lot of big buildings will turn into ovens since a lot of them don't even have windows to open to allow natural cooling. There will be tremendous losses of life due to heat stroke or heat exhaustion, especially among the elderly, and especially in cities like Los Vegas.
> 
> The moving around of goods and services will be seriously impacted and food shortages will bring massive starvation.
> 
> Crime will skyrocket, due to greed or just the need to survive while being unprepared.
> 
> Now the good news... we preppers are way ahead of the curve when and if this happens. We have stockpiled food, water, medicines, fuel, clothing, etc. We have places to move to or live in that probably will be minimally affected by EMP. We are prepared for the looters and have the means to defend ourselves and our families.
> 
> Most of us could "comfortably" survive for a year, a lot us us could "comfortably" survive for two-five years, and some of could "comfortable" survive for six-fifty years or more.
> 
> Lets keep on prepping until we are all in the six-fifty year range so we don't have to worry what tomorrow will bring. :soapbox2:


Just for information to clarify the vehicles that will still run. Pre 1970 autos will run. 76 is when some went from points to solid state ignitions, but the control module is inexpensive and you can keep a few in an ammo can and be safe. Vehicles had the solid state ignition until 86, and then computer controlled fuel injection started in 87. I have taken much newer vehicles than this, plugged the injector holes with pipe plugs, removed the fuel injection air plennum and adapted a carburetor, and dropped in an old distributor and now my new looking truck operates like a 70's truck, and nobody knows about it. Going to use that truck thursday to take a gooseneck trailer load of cows to the sale barn, so it all has been working fine. I have done this to Chevy, Ford and Dodge. Really, if the truck has an engine in it like the ones that came with older ignitions, you can change it back, and it is not that much trouble. I personally like the peace of mind I have when away from home.


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## BillS

lexsurivor said:


> We all know that America's society is very fragile. I don't know how people would react if something like this. I cant imagine they would take this very well. Remember the Eastern sea board black out? Well its believed that some of these solar flares could shut an even bigger area down. I think society will crumble if a big enough one occurs along with raised food prices caused by the BP oil spill. So what do you think?[Note]: The oil could stretch all the way across the atlantic ocean if it raches the gulf stream.


I don't think it would have to combine with a large oil spill. The first solar flare was observed in 1859. We have a narrow window of the history of the sun. Very large solar flares could happen every few hundred years for all we know. If we have a flare that's the largest one in the last 5000 years that could be enough to shut down our civilization.


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## Tirediron

VUnder said:


> Just for information to clarify the vehicles that will still run. Pre 1970 autos will run. 76 is when some went from points to solid state ignitions, but the control module is inexpensive and you can keep a few in an ammo can and be safe. Vehicles had the solid state ignition until 86, and then computer controlled fuel injection started in 87. I have taken much newer vehicles than this, plugged the injector holes with pipe plugs, removed the fuel injection air plennum and adapted a carburetor, and dropped in an old distributor and now my new looking truck operates like a 70's truck, and nobody knows about it. Going to use that truck thursday to take a gooseneck trailer load of cows to the sale barn, so it all has been working fine. I have done this to Chevy, Ford and Dodge. Really, if the truck has an engine in it like the ones that came with older ignitions, you can change it back, and it is not that much trouble. I personally like the peace of mind I have when away from home.


What are you thoughts on Alternators? they have been common since '63 although early ones were magnetic point type regulators, still there is the rectifier bridge diode pack which can be damaged by having too high of voltage fed backwards through it. I have never seen the charging system questioned. (I always keep generators when I find them JIC.)


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## Jimmy24

Having worked in the utility business for 30 years, I can say that the "grid" is in a bind in some areas and not in others. Contrary to popular belief, the grid is not completely tied together. The grid that serves the east coast, northeast, great lakes and Midwest are tied together, even with Canada. And has not been maintained or upgraded as it should have been. Just keep loading it. We (in the south) are tied to them at a few points and thru other companies (TVA, Duke), but ours have NC points that can be opened instantly. In the event of a solar flare issue, most grids will be on their own. 

The grid for the southeast, deep south to Texas is in very good shape. Modernized and upgraded continuously. Though a direct hit would be tough on it too, not as bad as equipment has been protected better and upgraded, READ Fiber Optic. 

The western grid is strung out over long distances and the electric distribution infrastructure in the far west is horrible. The grid won’t have to go down, their distribution systems will bite the bullet. I have seen wire and poles in San Diego that I’m feel certain are over 70-80 years old. They have some pole mounted equipment we have not used since the ‘50s. They're in display cases as relics to talk about the old days…

As far as faraday cages go, they have to be grounded and totally sealed to work. EMP will leak in a crack of thousandths of an inch. Grounding is EVERYTHING. We have faraday protected equipment in some large transmission substations with ultra high voltages all coming into one spot. They take no chances.

Jimmy


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## stayingthegame

just think of this situation.....ANYTHING that use a motor will be dead. anything that comes from the power grid will be dead. anything running at that time will be...... dead. now live with no lights, can't pump water, no gas, no cash registers at the stores, no internet, no news papers, no cars, ect. get the picture.  rethink living in 1850 and use to 2010 life style. it isn't the emp I am scared of, its the reaction of all the people around me that scares the sh** out of me. :help:eep:


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## partdeux

Jimmy, what kind of solar flare could cause the grid to go down? Are we talking 100 year flare or 10,000 year flare. Would it hit one area like a nuclear bomb type focus, or would it be spread out over hundreds of miles?


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## gypsysue

partdeux said:


> Jimmy, what kind of solar flare could cause the grid to go down? Are we talking 100 year flare or 10,000 year flare. Would it hit one area like a nuclear bomb type focus, or would it be spread out over hundreds of miles?


And would it depend which side of the earth was facing it when the magnetic field from the flare hits the earth?


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## Jimmy24

partdeux said:


> Jimmy, what kind of solar flare could cause the grid to go down? Are we talking 100 year flare or 10,000 year flare. Would it hit one area like a nuclear bomb type focus, or would it be spread out over hundreds of miles?


There have been some warnings as of late, that say we are in one of the strongest cycles of sun activity in quite a while. There have been many minor interruptions in the past by flares. Don't get me wrong, it takes a large one to be that disruptive. But as was mentioned with most of the gird in poor shape, a flare of bigger than avg strength, could cause something to trip and then the domino effect kicks in. That is why we have automated switching these days. Trying to protect the system and trying to keep it from going down.

There is a lot of speculation that the Sept 8 outage in CA was caused by a X class flare. Not sure it's been determined yet what actually caused it. Cell phone signals here, were really affected here that day.

The super large transmission systems are very touchy. It really amounts to not having as good a protection as there should be. The coordination scheme of most systems catch a blink from the start at the point of the fault. Some don't. Our system is very well protected and every sub we have except for maybe 8, have a preferred feed and a secondary feed.

Sue and partdeux, what side of the earth makes no difference. The farther south you see "Northern Lights" the closer we come to having a flare do some major damage. It will be all over the earth, not concentrated to any particular area. A large enough flare will have an EMP effect unknown to us.

Now don't get too worried about it, cause we been having them forever. But IF we were to get a strong enough one, it might be pretty bad for us for a long time. If power plants and large transmission systems get hit, power will be off for a while. That's fact you can look up for yourself. It's all a matter of IF&#8230;.

Mother Earth takes care of us mostly with her strong magnetic field. But she's there to protect us as her inhabitants not the grid&#8230;.least that's the way I see it.

Jimmy


----------



## Jimmy24

I thought I would add this. It is not just the actual EMP from the flare that will cause all the damage, the the effect on the equitment from everything coming off line at the same time. The transformers that are in these substations (1 to 3 per sub) have about a 3-5 year lead time to build one and mega $$$. We have about 80 subs in our little company (180,000 customers). 

We have 4 spare transformers.

The circuit breakers for 110 kv (3 to 12 per sub) have a 1-2 year lead time and are VERY hi $$$$.

We have maybe a dozen or so.

Do you see where I'm going with this? 

Then you have these idiots stealing the copper out of our subs that tie it to the major grounding mat built under ever sub and now we have a problem.

I have said for years that the terrorist have missed the boat...electricity is EVERTHING to this country...life and death...

Rant over. Sorry.

Jimmy


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## VUnder

Tirediron said:


> What are you thoughts on Alternators? they have been common since '63 although early ones were magnetic point type regulators, still there is the rectifier bridge diode pack which can be damaged by having too high of voltage fed backwards through it. I have never seen the charging system questioned. (I always keep generators when I find them JIC.)


I keep generators too. You can run without a battery if you have a generator. With an alternator, it takes power to make power, so you must have voltage to excite the fields. I have two 64 Galaxies that I am about to strip, so I will keep the powerplants out of both.

I really don't think a mild solar flare will hurt the old stuff. This new stuff will fry. My brother works for the phone company, and I have seen what just a little voltage can do to the phone system. I would still advise putting things in a metal box, even if it is just an old pickup tool box you have laying around. It will do the job just fine. Keep some points and condensers too, they are cheap insurance. Research about car batteries, there is a way you can replace the acid with gel used for canning, and it holds voltage. You can take an old battery that has been laying out in a pasture for ten years and make it a useful battery. I have brought some back that had been dead and discarded for years. The battery in one of my trucks is ten years old. My welder battery lasted eleven years before I had to jump it the first time. Batteries will be the key. Storage of power will be a necessity. Knowledge is power, and the more you know, the more valuable you will be to others, and they may possibly let you live. Knowing about wall street and football will be useless in the near future, and there aren't many people that can patch and go like in the old days.

They had a flare in the 1800's. Let's think about the telegraph system. It was bare, raw, and like most things in those days, overbuilt. That flare melted the telegraph system. One that big will melt the wires in your house if it melted the telegraphs. The telegraph wires were probably bigger than normal romex, so that is another problem in itself. That means you need to pile up some wire, extension cords, whatever you may need. When the flare hits, peoples homes will be connected to the power systems and will it start fires? Just imagine if every house had electrical fires going on. Then add fixing that on top of the power company fixing what they need to fix. I don't think society will last until it gets fixed. A week of no trucks going to New York City and the city will implode. In the very rural areas we might make it if we can keep them fought back, or stay out of sight and out of mind.

All these computer controlled millivolt systems on these newer vehicles will be history. I took a pan off of an automatic transmission yesterday and there was six solenoids just on the valve body. All those will be fried too, so just getting a computer won't fix these vehicles, all the sensors, fuel injector control wires, coil packs, will be time to scrap em. Be prepared to drain the tanks, save the motor oils and transmission fluids, and gear oils. The refineries won't be up and running either. Most of my things leak so bad that I keep a supply built up. When I change oil in trackhoes, dozers, and skidders, I keep it in a drum. I use it to top off all the leaky things around here. Been using burnt motor oil for power steering fluid for years. Add it to my diesel fuel. Use it in the engine.

Even with the old stuff, keep your extra things in a metal box just to be safe. In my old truck, I keep an extra alternator, distributor, and duraspark ignition box just in case. So if I am away from the house and all this happens, at least I can get home on that day. Plus, I always carried that anyways. Don't carry anything with my newer truck, if it quits it will take five days to two years to figure out what is wrong with it. All I need with it is a bag of goodies and some good walking shoes.


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## Clarice

I'm with you Jimmy, I have stated before if someone really wanted to do major harm to the USA just cut their power and communications. There are people where I work that carry 2 to 3 cell phone at all times, one to talk on, one to text with and one for backup I guess. I don't even own a cell phone so it is hard for me to understand.


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## Jimmy24

Clarice said:


> I'm with you Jimmy, I have stated before if someone really wanted to do major harm to the USA just cut their power and communications. There are people where I work that carry 2 to 3 cell phone at all times, one to talk on, one to text with and one for backup I guess. I don't even own a cell phone so it is hard for me to understand.


You know, I've seen the same thing. I know a couple of folks with multiple cell phones. I do have one, it's my only phone actually.

Never figured out having 2 or 3 of them.

Jimmy


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## lexsurivor

Wow just read all these old posts from when I first joined. Its amazing how much ive learned since then. Things can change so much in such a short time.
Then my mom was a skeptic but now my whole familys on board.


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## k0xxx

A Faraday cage would most likely not be a big concern in the event of a solar flare induced EMP event.

A nuclear induced EMP event is comprised of three electromagnetic components. The E1 pulse is a very fast pulse that generates very high voltages. E1 is the component that destroys computers and communications equipment and is too fast for ordinary lightning protectors. The E2 component of the pulse is the easiest to protect against, and has similarities in strength and timing to the electrical pulses produced by lightning. The E3 pulse is very different from the E1 and E2 pulses from an EMP. The E3 component of the pulse is a very slow pulse, lasting tens to hundreds of seconds, that is caused by the nuclear detonation heaving the earth's magnetic field out of the way, followed by the restoration of the magnetic field to its natural place. The E3 component has similarities to a geomagnetic storm caused by a very severe solar flare.

With solar storms, the E3 pulse type being the primary concern, the damage is more likely to be to the electrical grid itself and not as much to electronic components. Most electronics and electrical components in cars would likely survive a solar induced EMP event. However, with the grid down, getting fuel for cars, and the loss of the grid to power electronics, may make that a mute point unless other options are available.


----------



## LincTex

VUnder said:


> and dropped in an old distributor and now my new looking truck operates like a 70's truck, and nobody knows about it.


This doesn't work for very long on engines with hardened roller cams, they will eat the softer distributor gear. I don't know if synthetic oil would help or not, but I think it should - maybe along with some STP oil additive.

The other option is to remove the roller cam and lifters, and install a flat-tappet cam and lifters with the correct pushrods.


----------



## Jimmy24

LincTex said:


> This doesn't work for very long on engines with hardened roller cams, they will eat the softer distributor gear. I don't know if synthetic oil would help or not, but I think it should - maybe along with some STP oil additive.
> 
> The other option is to remove the roller cam and lifters, and install a flat-tappet cam and lifters with the correct pushrods.


Along with a lot of vechicles now don't even have a hole for a distribtor. They use crank triggers. There might be a unmachined boss where the dist used to go.

Jimmy


----------



## Tirediron

LincTex said:


> This doesn't work for very long on engines with hardened roller cams, they will eat the softer distributor gear. I don't know if synthetic oil would help or not, but I think it should - maybe along with some STP oil additive.
> 
> The other option is to remove the roller cam and lifters, and install a flat-tappet cam and lifters with the correct pushrods.


That might be the other way around, at least with after market retro fit roller cams ,they warn you to get a bronze distributor gear so as not to wipe out the cam gear, either way it certainly bears checking into, GM used a rotary distributor in the 5.7 up to 99, of course 99s are 12 years old now.


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## BlueShoe

Romex is a name brand of a typical house wire, so the gauge of the wire is key. Common gauges of 110V circuit house wire is 12 gauge or 14 gauge.
Northern Lights have been witness as far south as TN a few yrs ago, so the reach is FAR.

I wonder how certain components of the SCADA system hinders/helps grid integrity in our electric distribution system? This week I was standing near a pole that a crew was working on when the lineman in the bucket shorted a hot conductor to the pole ground, taking one phase of the 3 phase line out. The dispatch office called the foreman next to me within 20 seconds to determine if the line was down because of something they did, if anyone was injured, and once he knew everything was fine he tripped the switch to re-energize that phase. This all happened within 1 minute. When they work on the line the foreman in the field contacts dispatch and they deactivate the automation that automatically re-energizes the line after a fault/short. When your power goes out and comes back on for a few seconds and then goes off that's the automatic feature detecting a fault and taking the power line down until the problem is fixed.
That was a scary thing to witness when I heard the loud electric short and saw no movement from the man in the bucket for several seconds. Imagine what he thought?!

*The automation in the system is my question*--if the SCADA system was impaired could the line be heated back up manually? Is the SCADA system only the communications portion or is it the rack gear in the subs that controls the transmission/transformer/distribution function? In the EMP event, is that system a hindrance to regaining power?


----------



## LincTex

Jimmy24 said:


> Along with a lot of vehicles now don't even have a hole for a distributor. They use crank triggers.


Getting a little harder to find the correct EDIS boxes... but at least if you want to use a carb, you can adapt an EDIS-4, EDIS-6 or EDIS-8 to any crank trigger engine.

http://www.alternativeauto.com/waterbox/wb_archives/edis.html

Ford EDIS 8 Retro Fit

Me - I just prefer diesel. My Cummins needs zero electricity to run as long as I can coast it down the hill and pop the clutch in 3rd.


----------



## Jimmy24

tenOC said:


> Romex is a name brand of a typical house wire, so the gauge of the wire is key. Common gauges of 110V circuit house wire is 12 gauge or 14 gauge.
> Northern Lights have been witness as far south as TN a few yrs ago, so the reach is FAR.
> 
> I wonder how certain components of the SCADA system hinders/helps grid integrity in our electric distribution system? This week I was standing near a pole that a crew was working on when the lineman in the bucket shorted a hot conductor to the pole ground, taking one phase of the 3 phase line out. The dispatch office called the foreman next to me within 20 seconds to determine if the line was down because of something they did, if anyone was injured, and once he knew everything was fine he tripped the switch to re-energize that phase. This all happened within 1 minute. When they work on the line the foreman in the field contacts dispatch and they deactivate the automation that automatically re-energizes the line after a fault/short. When your power goes out and comes back on for a few seconds and then goes off that's the automatic feature detecting a fault and taking the power line down until the problem is fixed.
> That was a scary thing to witness when I heard the loud electric short and saw no movement from the man in the bucket for several seconds. Imagine what he thought?!
> 
> *The automation in the system is my question*--if the SCADA system was impaired could the line be heated back up manually? Is the SCADA system only the communications portion or is it the rack gear in the subs that controls the transmission/transformer/distribution function? In the EMP event, is that system a hindrance to regaining power?


To answer your question, yes there is a manual control. Sounds like their system worked as designed. They were working under "HWP" HOT WORK PERMISSION. The reclosing switch ("A" Switch) was opened. There are several different types of system protection and all have manual location control. That would be the last problem to worry about in a bad EMP situtation. Trust me.

Jimmy


----------



## VUnder

LincTex said:


> This doesn't work for very long on engines with hardened roller cams, they will eat the softer distributor gear. I don't know if synthetic oil would help or not, but I think it should - maybe along with some STP oil additive.
> 
> The other option is to remove the roller cam and lifters, and install a flat-tappet cam and lifters with the correct pushrods.


This one has been this way for almost ten years. Hauled a gooseneck load of steers with it this morning to Texas to sell them. But, I was already thinking cam change because it just doesn't pull like it should. I am thinking maybe the duration of the EFI cam is not correct for the Carburated engine. It never has had the romp and stomp that a 460 should have. I replaced the vacuum modulator on the distributor, it was bad, and that helped, but performance could be better. I have an older 1 ton 4x4 with a 390 and it will walk and talk. I know the EFI has a completely different torque curve so maybe the cam is my problem, what do you think?. I did keep the gear off the old original distributor.


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## Kenny78

Vunder, the cam in chevys is different for efii. I think yours would be as well. I would look for a rv/towing cam. Don't let mr. Whiz bang sell you one for a race car.


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## VUnder

Yes, I have always went with the RV/Towing cam for the trucks, and do I have to get lifters too? These aren't that old, maybe scuff the old ones a little with some fine paper so both cam and lifters break in together? I have to take a head off anyway because a manifold bolt broke off for no reason, and will have it taken down.


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## VUnder

Jimmy24 said:


> Along with a lot of vechicles now don't even have a hole for a distribtor. They use crank triggers. There might be a unmachined boss where the dist used to go.
> 
> Jimmy


I did mention that this works on modern engines that are fuel injected versions of carburated engines. Dodge 318/360/440. Chevy 250/305/350. Ford 300/302/351/460. Now, I know they make other size engines, but did Dodge ever make an injected slant six? Did Chevy make an electronic injected 327, not the bosch mechanical injection. Did Ford make a fuel injected 390? No, I was just trying to mention the old engine sizes that they kept as fuel injection came in. Some small trucks are good too. There are still some diesel luv trucks around here, last forever it seems. S-10's and Rangers go long too. Dodge sold the little mitsubishi trucks, they are good.

For instance, I have a 91 S-10 Blazer I just picked up. It has the 4.3, and that is a surprising power house, coming from a ford guy. But, I can change the intake and drop in an HEI distributor, and change the fuel delivery, and I am rolling without a computer. May have to get something to make the transmission shift properly.


----------



## Jimmy24

VUnder said:


> I did mention that this works on modern engines that are fuel injected versions of carburated engines. Dodge 318/360/440. Chevy 250/305/350. Ford 300/302/351/460. Now, I know they make other size engines, but did Dodge ever make an injected slant six? Did Chevy make an electronic injected 327, not the bosch mechanical injection. Did Ford make a fuel injected 390? No, I was just trying to mention the old engine sizes that they kept as fuel injection came in. Some small trucks are good too. There are still some diesel luv trucks around here, last forever it seems. S-10's and Rangers go long too. Dodge sold the little mitsubishi trucks, they are good.
> 
> For instance, I have a 91 S-10 Blazer I just picked up. It has the 4.3, and that is a surprising power house, coming from a ford guy. But, I can change the intake and drop in an HEI distributor, and change the fuel delivery, and I am rolling without a computer. May have to get something to make the transmission shift properly.


I just simply mentioned that some engines that used a carb and dist back in the day, may not have a place for a dist now, as a lot of engines are crank triggered and some only a computer is used to time the engine.

I was not debating you or anyone else. If it works for you great.

Not sure why the thinking is that the old stuff will work after an EMP event. If it has a coil, wire wrap to change, make or dist electricity it will also be burnt in an EMP event.

All studies say nothing electrical will be working. I planning for none. Solar panels may actually short out too. Homemade faraiday cages more than likely won't won't work either.

Weither manmade or natural, if we have a major emp event we are in the dark and walking, biking or riding horses. Plan for that.

Jimmy


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## VUnder

Yes, they have changed them some, the only thing I ran into on the 460 was that the timing cover didn't have a place for a fuel pump, but I could have drilled it out and bought an eccentric for the cam, but I just used electric. I didn't feel debated, just trying to list options for people that haven't had to run as much junk as I have had to. Which, taught me a lot, but my mindset is if it has less than 200k, then I have a new truck.

If someone is going to prepare, and I am sure vehicles will only be good for your trip out only, and then will not be worth the risk of using them again. It will be easier to hoard up the old electronics and protect them than to deal with computers, as they are expensive, and so model specific. Kinda like a 12v coil can be used on anything that uses a 12v coil. Then, if there is a rash of flares, may wipe it all out.


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## efbjr

*?...*



lexsurivor said:


> ...with raised food prices caused by the BP oil spill.


How did the BP oil spill impact food prices? I know that the price of gas went down during the spill, even though it usually would have increased as we were approaching the peak vacation driving season, but I figured they engineered the price decrease to take our minds off the spill and calm down the general public.


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## Jimmy24

efbjr said:


> How did the BP oil spill impact food prices? I know that the price of gas went down during the spill, even though it usually would have increased as we were approaching the peak vacation driving season, but I figured they engineered the price decrease to take our minds off the spill and calm down the general public.


Seafood prices were the only food prices we saw around here go up.

Jimmy


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## Meerkat

Jimmy24 said:


> Seafood prices were the only food prices we saw around here go up.
> 
> Jimmy


 Some Beach ,Somewhere !:wave:


----------



## SageAdvicefarmgirl

Jimmy24 said:


> Not sure why the thinking is that the old stuff will work after an EMP event. If it has a coil, wire wrap to change, make or dist electricity it will also be burnt in an EMP event.
> 
> All studies say nothing electrical will be working. I planning for none. Solar panels may actually short out too. Homemade faraiday cages more than likely won't won't work either.
> 
> *Whether manmade or natural, if we have a major emp event we are in the dark and walking, biking or riding horses. Plan for that.*
> 
> Jimmy


We own 2 horses in our family group. And keep bicycles on hand, too! Just in case...


----------



## LincTex

VUnder said:


> It will be easier to hoard up the old electronics and protect them than to deal with computers, as they are expensive, and so model specific. Kinda like a 12v coil can be used on anything that uses a 12v coil. Then, if there is a rash of flares, may wipe it all out.


I have been hoarding HEI modules from the wrecking yards. You can use them to replace a Chrysler or Duraspark box very easily.

http://www.junkyardgenius.com/ignition/jeep/HEI01.html

http://www.carbdford.com/tech/HEI/hei.htm









http://www.designed2drive.com/

I am also going to whip up one of these circuits to see how it works... to use points to trigger an HEI module. Pretty neat reading!!!

http://home.comcast.net/~loudgpz/GPZweb/Ignition/GPZheiModForPoints.html

Or, use the points to trigger a TFI module:
http://www.gofastforless.com/ignition/tfi.htm

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/4-pin-hei-module-triggered-points-221638.html


----------



## CapnJack

lexsurivor said:


> Does any one know how to make a faraday cage?


I have a question about this, myself. Would it be possible (maybe using one of them shipping containers?) to make one of these to house/protect a vehicle? My point being, that when the SHTF and there is no gas, ect, it would be nice to have a fuel efficient vehicle to get you farther than, say, an older gas guzzler. I already have my daily driver somewhat modified to handle different driving conditions if roads are blocked, ect, and can haul quite a bit of supplies if the need be to leave my homestead, but it is a 2003 model year. So would this be feasable?


----------



## lexsurivor

CapnJack said:


> I have a question about this, myself. Would it be possible (maybe using one of them shipping containers?) to make one of these to house/protect a vehicle? My point being, that when the SHTF and there is no gas, ect, it would be nice to have a fuel efficient vehicle to get you farther than, say, an older gas guzzler. I already have my daily driver somewhat modified to handle different driving conditions if roads are blocked, ect, and can haul quite a bit of supplies if the need be to leave my homestead, but it is a 2003 model year. So would this be feasable?


In theory if you lined the entire inside with an insulator it would work. The first idea that comes to mind is rubber garage flooring.


----------



## LincTex

CapnJack said:


> Would it be possible (maybe using one of them shipping containers?) to make one of these to house/protect a vehicle?


I don't see why not... just have to make sure it's sealed when a pulse hits.

Park a motorcycle in there, and wrap that sucker with aluminum window screen! (and ground it to the container?)

Probably too much uncertainty about the subject to know for sure.


----------



## LincTex

Ya know.... I'll bet a whole bunch of "test leads" with alligator clips on them would do the trick. Just clip one end to a good ground on the chassis... and the other end to what you want to protect (ignition coil, alternator stator or field, etc)

As long as it's shorted to a ground, it can't get fried, right?


----------



## lexsurivor

You don't want the motorcycle connected to the outside box. That would let the current into the motorcycle. You want it insulated from the box.


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## pandamonium

A grid collapse was discusses a little earlier in this thread. I started thinking about if the grid did go down for an extended periiod of time. Correct me if I am wrong, but are the US nuclear power plants not cooled with water that is pumped by electric powered pumps? So if shtf for whatever reason, emp, economic collapse, it would only be a matter of time before these plants were abandoned. I wonder how long before we see them start having meltdowns. How many folks live downwind from plants that would be affected.  I doubt the plants are protected fully from emp, so things wiuld prollly go bad much faster in an emp event. Economic collapse would most likely affect nuke plants slower.


----------



## pmkrv12

pandamonium said:


> A grid collapse was discusses a little earlier in this thread. I started thinking about if the grid did go down for an extended periiod of time. Correct me if I am wrong, but are the US nuclear power plants not cooled with water that is pumped by electric powered pumps? So if shtf for whatever reason, emp, economic collapse, it would only be a matter of time before these plants were abandoned. I wonder how long before we see them start having meltdowns. How many folks live downwind from plants that would be affected.  I doubt the plants are protected fully from emp, so things wiuld prollly go bad much faster in an emp event. Economic collapse would most likely affect nuke plants slower.


I am not an expert on this but the way they work is that the fuel elements are exposed and if you lower them or put them back in the cage lacking for the official term the nuclear reaction stops. I would think that it is designed to shutdown when power fails. The problem becomes when they can't be cooled. I did not read all the information on the rectors in Japan but it makes you wonder, I have 2 of them within 50 miles form me.

Pmk


----------



## LincTex

pmkrv12 said:


> the fuel elements are exposed and if you lower them or put them back in the cage lacking for the official term the nuclear reaction stops.


They lower graphite rods down to be placed in between the fuel rods. That stops the reaction.

The reason Chernobyl blew up was the core got so hot it warped/melted the tubes between the fuel rods... and the graphite rods couldn't be lowered down into the warped tubes.

The system is designed so that the graphite rods can be lowered by gravity in an emergency if needed, so no power needed to stop the core reaction. You just have to catch it in time.

I think in Japan the rods were lowered, but the core was still so hot they needed water to cool it, and that was the problem... no cooling water flow.


----------



## Marcus

I also remember that the diesel back up generators were inoperable.

For those who don't know, you have to have some electricity to start up a nuclear power plant because the water pumps must be running before the control rods are lifted.
There are 2 water loops in US reactors: one, called the primary loop, is a closed loop between the reactor core and the heat exchanger; the other one is called the secondary loop and draws in outside water, runs it into the heat exchanger, then to the turbine (which actually generates the electricity), and then releases the water.


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## nj_m715

They aren't light bulbs, they need to be cool for a long time even with the rods in. This guy has alot of info
http://www.whentechfails.com/node/1545


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## 101airborne

Let's not for get that a MCE ( mass cornial eruption) I think it's called could also do massive damage although on a lesser scale. destroying the electrical grid and anything that is not plugged into a commercial grade surge protector while not effecting things like generators and automobiles. Yeah take away the electricity, which would then take out water and sanitation, no power to keep food from spoiling, it would IMHO snowball from there until everything fell apart.


----------



## 101airborne

lexsurivor;32559 do. I know that some people are going to critisize me for taking the cats but they mean alot to me and my family. Our old cat who was 21 died last year and my mom just seemed sad because she had known the cat for half of her life and she is happy now that we have 2 cats again and she couldent leave them behind. Also they are good mousers and have caught several rabbits.(food if your desperate)[/QUOTE said:


> Lex if anyone critisizes you for taking the cat's then they can me as well! Our cat just like our dogs are part of our family and we prep for them as well. Heck they're probibly better prepped amount wise than we are.


----------



## 101airborne

Lex... In case you don't already know instead of carrying tooth paste in your BOB in addition to a toothbrush. beprepared.com as well as lots of other sites have toothbrushes with toothpaste "built in" Either the single use ones for around a buck, to the dispensing kind good for 20+ uses for around $4. You can also get tooth powder as well. The good part about it is it will last almost forever, isn't affected by heat/cold like tooth paste can be. Otherwise looks like your coming along pretty well.


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## pmkrv12

LincTex said:


> They lower graphite rods down to be placed in between the fuel rods. That stops the reaction.
> 
> The reason Chernobyl blew up was the core got so hot it warped/melted the tubes between the fuel rods... and the graphite rods couldn't be lowered down into the warped tubes.
> 
> The system is designed so that the graphite rods can be lowered by gravity in an emergency if needed, so no power needed to stop the core reaction. You just have to catch it in time.
> 
> I think in Japan the rods were lowered, but the core was still so hot they needed water to cool it, and that was the problem... no cooling water flow.


Thanks for the extra explanation, I know I summarized it very poorly

Pmk


----------



## pandamonium

nj_m715 said:


> They aren't light bulbs, they need to be cool for a long time even with the rods in. This guy has alot of info
> http://www.whentechfails.com/node/1545


Read the article. Like I was thinking, the grid goes down so do the nuclear plants. Not a good thing. IMHO, the part that will promise the reactors melting down is the fact that the gov is regulating how things are done...


----------



## MetalPrepper

OK....this thread here and what Pandamonium just said are what concerns me the most. I do live near to a plant and there are several more 50 miles or so away....but even if you don't live near one, if an EMP took out the power grid, eventually you'd have a melt down , or a lot of meltdowns....and a cloud of nuclear fallout....everywhere....alll across the nation (if not world depending on the extent of the power outage)....so we are all doomed. No amount of food will help. Living underground (forever) would be the only way to survive....I hate to be Debbi-downer....but "what to do"!!?


----------



## LincTex

lexsurivor said:


> You don't want the motorcycle connected to the outside box. That would let the current into the motorcycle. You want it insulated from the box.


I was actually thinking using alligator clips to short out electrical components on the bike itself... not to the container.

If you connect the + and - terminals on an ignition coil with a stout shorting lead, how can it be damaged?
Actually, the coil would probably be the least of your worries. It would take a fair bit to ruin one. I would remove any "solid state" (electronic) ignition trigger boxes and voltage regulators and store them in a safe place. All open wires would get grounded to the frame. If you put a piece of insulating rubber under the kickstand, it would be entirely isolated.


----------



## FrankW

Sourdough said:


> Suggested Reading: "One Second After" by William R. Frostchen


That book has a LOT of inaccuracies and hyperbole on EMP effects to the point of making it misleading.

I just read it the other month and htne realized where a lot of th discussion on this site came from.

The books general thread that strong EMP can cripple society dramatically is correct.
But the described effects on cars, especially parked and shut off ones where simply science fiction.

Primarily when it come to cars/trucks.
If you car is shut off there is not reason at all to expect the electronics will be fried. nearly 100% of cars that were shut off can be expected to run after an EMP.

as for driving cars only a very small majority would be fried to the point of needed repair.
Most will simply shut off and then reboot on restart.
A cars ECU is not as fragile as your PC and with every increasing strenght of electric fields in our cars our ECUs have become more resilient in last 5 years not less.


----------



## labotomi

Marcus said:


> I also remember that the diesel back up generators were inoperable.
> 
> For those who don't know, you have to have some electricity to start up a nuclear power plant because the water pumps must be running before the control rods are lifted.
> There are 2 water loops in US reactors: one, called the primary loop, is a closed loop between the reactor core and the heat exchanger; the other one is called the secondary loop and draws in outside water, runs it into the heat exchanger, then to the turbine (which actually generates the electricity), and then releases the water.


Actually there are 3 loops.

The primary loop: This runs through the reactor where it's heated to high temperatures (450F and up depending upon the operating pressure) then through the steam generator(s) which are large heat exchangers.

The secondary loop: This is the other side of the steam generators. The primary coolant heats the water in the generators to above the boiling point (superheated steam). That steam turns the generators and is then cooled by in the condensers (another heat exchanger) then the "cold" water is pumped back into the steam generators.

The open cooling loop: This is the water on the other side of the condensers which removes the heat and releases it into the cooling towers and/or lake/stream/ocean or some other "limitless" source of cold water.

But you do need electricity to move the water through the reactor and steam generators. Also, the control rods are held in place with electromagnetically operated latches. Without electricity, you can't latch the rods so you can't pull them outward from the reactor (you need electricity to run the withdrawal motors as well). Of course there's all the instrumentation and controls that are electrically powered.

Yep, you're not going to start up a reactor unless you already have electricity.


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## labotomi

BlueZ said:


> A cars ECU is not as fragile as your PC and *with every increasing strenght of electric fields in our cars our ECUs have become more resilient in last 5 years not less.*


While I generally agree with your statements about the effects being less than what is portrayed in books, movies and sites designed to cause fear, this one is misleading. You've talked before about the similarities of an EMP burst and the electrical fields generated in cars and this is simply incorrect.

They are nothing alike... nothing. In a previous discussion I showed where the highest frequency pulse you could get in a car was several orders of magnitude slower than the E1 component of an EMP.

The effects of an EMP have been greatly exaggerated with regard to how much damage would occur to the country. Don't take this wrong, it will be bad, but not close to the "every electronic device not in a faraday cage will be fried" mentality that's grown from all the misinformation and sensationalistic fiction.


----------



## Outpost

labotomi said:


> While I generally agree with your statements about the effects being less than what is portrayed in books, movies and sites designed to cause fear, this one is misleading. You've talked before about the similarities of an EMP burst and the electrical fields generated in cars and this is simply incorrect.
> 
> They are nothing alike... nothing. In a previous discussion I showed where the highest frequency pulse you could get in a car was several orders of magnitude slower than the E1 component of an EMP.
> 
> The effects of an EMP have been greatly exaggerated with regard to how much damage would occur to the country. Don't take this wrong, it will be bad, but not close to the "every electronic device not in a faraday cage will be fried" mentality that's grown from all the misinformation and sensationalistic fiction.


*Thank you Thank you Thank you!*
The EMP thing has been payed to death in movies and contemporary literature and has folks terrified *way* out of proportion.

As I was explaining to one of my local friends the other day, the places that are most sensitive to *Solar* EMP are the countries with long electrical transmission lines which act as (simplistically explained) "antennas" and pick up more of the pulse. While this may pop transformers and throw breakers, your walkie-talkies will be fine, and as long as there's fuel in your tank, your cars will all start.

That's *not* to say that there's absolutely *no* possibility of a record-level C.M.E. whacking the power grid, but that's really what it would take.

Reminds me of the old Y-2-K hysteria....

...lots of good *and smart* people got trapped into that one...

:beercheer:


----------



## northfarmer

If you want accurate info on this subject watch this guy,he is a very smart space weather guy,and the threat is very real.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Suspicious0bservers?feature=watch


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## labotomi

northfarmer said:


> If you want accurate info on this subject watch this guy,he is a very smart space weather guy,and the threat is very real.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/Suspicious0bservers?feature=watch


I'm going to have to disagree with your assessment that this guy is very smart. The impression I got was he's taken general information from articles that are designed not to be more technical than the general public can understand and loosely tied various things together in an attempt to come up with some sort of evidence that things aren't "right" and we should be wary.

Nobody is saying there isn't a threat, just that it's overblown. Not every transformer or high voltage line is going to be destroyed. The part about all our large transformers being built in other countries is true, but it wouldn't take long to ramp up domestic production if the need arose. Transformers aren't highly technical devices, just coils of wire of various lengths and thicknesses along with (most of the time) some sort of ferrous core to aid in the coupling.

In addition, a large CME would not hit unexpectedly. We would have several days notice and there are things that can be done to minimize the chance of damage such as shutting down as much of the power grid as possible and isolating the transmission lines into the shortest lengths possible. Also physically opening the circuits before it has a chance to carry the voltage to the automatic protection devices.

Chill northfarmer... Don't be no cloud on a sunny day


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## Mase92

I think it could. The worst thing about this is we have no warning and no one to blame. To me, this is one of my biggest fears for WROL.



lexsurivor said:


> We all know that America's society is very fragile. I don't know how people would react if something like this. I cant imagine they would take this very well. Remember the Eastern sea board black out? Well its believed that some of these solar flares could shut an even bigger area down. I think society will crumble if a big enough one occurs along with raised food prices caused by the BP oil spill. So what do you think?[Note]: The oil could stretch all the way across the atlantic ocean if it raches the gulf stream.


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## lotsoflead

HarleyRider said:


> Perhaps we should try to figure out a way for all of us to stay in touch if the grid goes to crud? Maybe a gathering point by state or region?


 No problem staying in touch, only the well imformed,well trained, and well prepared will survive, .


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## LincTex

Outpost said:


> places that are most sensitive to *Solar* EMP are the countries with long electrical transmission lines which act as (simplistically explained) "antennas"


It is good that you differentiated... many still believe a HEMP is still a possibility and something to be concerned about.

I don't have much faith in automobile ECU's... I have seem some fry and die for some amazingly simple reasons.


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## machinist

Could an EMP/Solar event take down society? 

Short answer is yes. Long answers would fill books. 

Look up "Carrington Event", if someone hasn't mentioned that already. I didn't read the whole thread. Yeah, a big solar emission is a bad news.

What concerns me are those 100+ nuclear power plants in the US that REQUIRE power to stay under control. Lose power to them and you have 100+ Fukushima events. Now THAT is bad news!


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## kejmack

101airborne said:


> Lex if anyone critisizes you for taking the cat's then they can me as well! Our cat just like our dogs are part of our family and we prep for them as well. Heck they're probibly better prepped amount wise than we are.


I have preps for the dogs, a 30 year old Cockatoo and a 20 year old 80# Tortoise. Each one has their own crate with healthpapers. I always have at least 6 months worth of food on hand for them. (Actually, Bullet eats grass so he is easy to prep for.)


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## MetalPrepper

machinist said:


> Could an EMP/Solar event take down society?
> 
> Short answer is yes. Long answers would fill books.
> 
> Look up "Carrington Event", if someone hasn't mentioned that already. I didn't read the whole thread. Yeah, a big solar emission is a bad news.
> 
> What concerns me are those 100+ nuclear power plants in the US that REQUIRE power to stay under control. Lose power to them and you have 100+ Fukushima events. Now THAT is bad news!


THAT is what I was saying in my earlier post......everyone seemed to think the nukes were no problem......(I do not agree....but we'll ALL be screwed if they are a problem, so shrug)


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## labotomi

Jimmy24 said:


> I thought I would add this. It is not just the actual EMP from the flare that will cause all the damage, the the effect on the equitment from everything coming off line at the same time. The transformers that are in these substations (1 to 3 per sub) have about a 3-5 year lead time to build one and mega $$$. We have about 80 subs in our little company (180,000 customers).
> 
> We have 4 spare transformers.
> 
> The circuit breakers for 110 kv (3 to 12 per sub) have a 1-2 year lead time and are VERY hi $$$$.
> 
> We have maybe a dozen or so.
> 
> Do you see where I'm going with this?
> 
> Jimmy


Do you really think the physical disconnects will not be opened on the upstream side and downstream side of each distribution station? That would prevent the lines from feeding into the breakers and transformers and thus the potential for damage would be minimal.

You did state the EMP from a flare so we would have several days to take the grid down even if it means inconveniencing the population. Now if it were a EMP caused by a high altitude nuke explosion, there would be no warning.


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## labotomi

pandamonium said:


> Read the article. Like I was thinking, the grid goes down so do the nuclear plants. Not a good thing. IMHO, the part that will promise the reactors melting down is the fact that the gov is regulating how things are done...





MetalPrepper said:


> OK....this thread here and what Pandamonium just said are what concerns me the most. I do live near to a plant and there are several more 50 miles or so away....but even if you don't live near one, if an EMP took out the power grid, eventually you'd have a melt down , or a lot of meltdowns....and a cloud of nuclear fallout....everywhere....alll across the nation (if not world depending on the extent of the power outage)....so we are all doomed. No amount of food will help. Living underground (forever) would be the only way to survive....I hate to be Debbi-downer....but "what to do"!!?





MetalPrepper said:


> THAT is what I was saying in my earlier post......everyone seemed to think the nukes were no problem......(I do not agree....but we'll ALL be screwed if they are a problem, so shrug)


Read my earlier post. A CME will not cause the mass destruction many fear because it's not a sudden unexpected event. Yes there will be damage, but the nuke plants will have the opportunity to shut down and cool down. Even if the loss of power is unexpected, the reactors shut down immediately with a loss of power to the control systems. The shutdowns are provided by spring force/stored hydraulic energy and even gravity. There are backup generators with basic controls that are used to provide power to the cooling system in emergencies. These generators ARE NOT connected to the power grid.

Before anyone brings Fukishima into the discussion, remember that situation was caused by not one, but two physical disasters in close succession. The earthquake followed by a tsunami. The earthquake caused a loss of power and shut everything down, but the tsunami flooded the pump motors and rendered them useless. Earthquakes, tsunamis or any other physical disaster is associated or expected due to a CME


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## labotomi

LincTex said:


> They lower graphite rods down to be placed in between the fuel rods. That stops the reaction.
> 
> The reason Chernobyl blew up was the core got so hot it warped/melted the tubes between the fuel rods... and the graphite rods couldn't be lowered down into the warped tubes.
> 
> The system is designed so that the graphite rods can be lowered by gravity in an emergency if needed, so no power needed to stop the core reaction. You just have to catch it in time.
> 
> I think in Japan the rods were lowered, but the core was still so hot they needed water to cool it, and that was the problem... no cooling water flow.


Actually the rods used in US nuke plants are made of *hafnium*, not graphite as was used in Chernobyl.

There's a major difference in the nuclear physics design of US plants and the one used at the Chernobyl facility. US nuke designs use a negative thermal feedback design while Chernobyl used a positive thermal feedback design.

In short this means in a US plant as power rises, the temperature increases. This increase in temperature causes power to go back down... This creates a natural tendency for the reactor to be self regulating (to a certain degree). This means that there won't be a sudden increase in temperature of the coolant without some sort of operator. Once the rod height is stable, the average temperature across the core reaches an equilibrium and remains within a few degrees of that point no matter if the plant operates at 5% or 100% power. The only thing that causes a change in that baseline temperature is an increase or decrease in rod height.

In the Chernobyl design as power rises causing the temperature to rise, the increase in temperature causes power to rise further which causes further increases in temperature. This makes that design reliant upon outside action by protective features or operator actions to stop the cycle of rising power.


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## machinist

Yeah, Fukushima was fail-safe, too. At least that's what they told the the Japanese people.

We have some of those GE designed plants, also, IIRC. Lose cooling water in them, and you have a problem. Can't happen? It already HAS happened in Japan!

The problem with nuclear energy is that even with very reliable protective systems, we cannot afford even ONE mistake, nor accident. And we've already had a couple in the US. IIRC, I read something about the Enrico Fermi plant near Detroit, and then there was 3 Mile Island. And the one under construction in Michigan by the lake that was sinking into the ground. The engineers didn't allow for the saturated soil. Had to dig vast "wells" down a couple hundred feet and pour 'em fulla concrete to keep it from sinking into the swamp.

So, this stuff DOES fail, just like everything else. It already HAS failed. More than once. And we cannot afford ANY failures.

The longer these things operate, the bigger the waste pile grows. Waste that we have NO way to dispose of. If we did, it would BE GONE, right? But that waste is still there in storage tanks, just like Fukushima, and constantly growing. Can't get rid of it, and it takes constant maintenance to keep it under control. What a legacy to leave our grandkids! We have this tiger by the tail and can NEVER, EVER let him go...

One major screw-up and we have a big problem. A 10,000 year long problem. How the general public fell for something as stupid as nuclear power, I will never understand.

But yeah, I'm SURE those back up generators are absolutely foolproof. Can't have any problem with controls due to a solar flare, can't have any mechanical problems, can't be flooded out like the one with dams around it by the river (in MO?). I'm just sure they are PERFECT in every way.

Anybody wanna hear some war stories from 30+ years in engineering about how "fail safe" stuff came unglued? I have many of them. Here's one for starters: http://history.gmheritagecenter.com/wiki/index.php/Biggest_Industrial_Fire_in_History


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## labotomi

machinist said:


> Yeah, Fukushima was fail-safe, too. At least that's what they told the the Japanese people.
> 
> We have some of those GE designed plants, also, IIRC. Lose cooling wate rin them, and you have a problem. Can't happen? It already HAS happened in Japan!


Did you fail to read my post? Fukishima was the result of TWO unexpected/no time to prepare physically damaging events. *This thread* is about a *CME* which will *not* cause a physical damaging event and we will have several days advance notice that it's happened before the effects hit us.

The design of the GE plants wasn't a problem. The problem is a magnitude 7.1 earthquake followed immediately by a 15 meter tsunami. The earthquake exceeded the design criteria of the facility yet the damage and subsequent release of radioactivity would have been minor if the tsunami hadn't followed immediately afterward.

I'd like to ask how much oil would be left if nuclear power were never utilized globally and how much more pollution would have been released. If one believes that green house gasses contribute to global warming, you should know that the effect would probably be doubled.

How much more damage would have been done by many more hurricanes being generated and worsening drought conditions? Think about a Katrina or Sandy every year along the coast and perpetual droughts throughout the midwest.


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## labotomi

machinist said:


> But yeah, I'm SURE those back up generators are absolutely foolproof. Can't have any problem with controls due to a solar flare, can't have any mechanical problems, can't be flooded out like the one with dams around it by the river (in MO?). I'm just sure they are PERFECT in every way.


Having worked on those back up generators, I can say that they can be controlled by manual means, so the controls aren't an issue. The starting is done by air motors (not much to fail there). And the concerns about mechanical problems are addressed not only by testing and maintenance on a regular basis, but by having several redundant units so that not all are needed to perform the task.

Hindsight is 20/20 and I'm pretty sure you weren't walking the picket lines protesting the construction of these plants or for them to be shutdown. Most likely you're like most people who like to enjoy the benefits while bitching about things from behind the keyboard.


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## machinist

Uh, don't be too sure of anything. I'm from Indiana where the Marble Hill nuke plant never happened, because of the protests we made and the lawsuits, etc. 

No, I'm not just an armchair griper. I'm an old guy with sense enough to do my best to NOT get into a hole I cannot get out of. 

Yeah, I read your post. Sounds like you are on the payroll at a nuke plant. So, TWO things cannot happen at once??? They already DID. Or did you miss that? How many Nuke plants do we have in the US in the vicinity of the New Madrid Fault? Now THAT took some REAL brains! Yes, they are some distance away. Is it far enough? The last quake there toppled chimneys in Louisville, KY, and rang church bells in Boston. 

How long you gonna run those generators (assuming they will start), when the grid is down and no oil is being refined here? The last Carrington event took down the grid in a significant portion of Canada, IIRC. Nothing happens in a vacuum, contrary to most design assumptions. Any grid failure can easily be a cascade event, and not just within the electrical grid, but spilling over into areas like transportation, ability to do maintenance, etc. 

I realize that the original question asked only about EMP. I have to say yes, it CAN take it all down. It is a matter of how much damage is done to infrastructure. With enough electrical/electronic damage, the country grinds to a halt. 

I am not buying Nuclear Safety. Those two words do not belong in the same sentence.

Working hard at present on our own off-grid electrical supply, which you made an excellent case for doing. I don't expect the entire country to do so, however, since most people vote with their wallets for the cheapest thing in the short term. No, I don't believe in mucking up my own back yard, let alone the air I breathe and the climate we all live in. But I can't say the same for the general public.


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## labotomi

machinist said:


> Uh, don't be too sure of anything. I'm from Indiana where the Marble Hill nuke plant never happened, because of the protests we made and the lawsuits, etc.


We? I doubt it.



machinist said:


> Yeah, I read your post. Sounds like you are on the payroll at a nuke plant.


13 years removed from reactor operation. Now EE in the manufacturing world. I have no agenda in regards to nuclear power.

Wrong assumption on your part.



machinist said:


> So, TWO things cannot happen at once??? They already DID. Or did you miss that?


This thread is about a CME or did you miss that?



machinist said:


> How long you gonna run those generators (assuming they will start), when the grid is down and no oil is being refined here?


Long enough to cool down the reactor to the point where decay heat isn't sufficient to cause damage.



machinist said:


> The last Carrington event took down the grid in a significant portion of Canada, IIRC.


I think you mean a CME a few years back. Carrington refers to a singular event. It is not a classification.

If you're referring to the Quebec outage in 1989, it lasted 9 whole hours. They also had over 3 days warning. It also resulted in various features being implemented that would improve the resilience of the grid for any future events. Similar actions were taken by the US and Europe to provide increased protection of their associated power grids.



machinist said:


> I am not buying Nuclear Safety. Those two words do not belong in the same sentence.


Ok. To you the alternatives are better even though you have no idea what they would be. I understand now.


----------



## machinist

My alternatives so far, are wind and solar electric power, passive solar space heating supplemented by a wood stove, mostly hand tools used in the shop, garden, and kitchen, and a few other incidentals.

Food raised at home reduces our need to buy vegetables that got hauled thousands of miles from Mexico, and have the added benefit of NOT giving us Montezuma's Revenge. Chickens at home, fed by grain we raise here, provide us eggs and fertilizer for the gardens. Collected rain water is gravity flow for irrigation and can be hand pumped for the house, but also has an electric pump. Solar hot water is under construction.

Not much of the above is vulnerable to ongoing electric power from the grid, although some of it is. We are working to reduce that. It has the benefit of peace of mind when the power goes off, even if we do have a long way to go on our journey off grid.

You are right, I should have said a Carrington TYPE event, or, as you correctly said, a Coronal Mass Ejection. Big semantic difference there!

Yes, I made some assumptions, but I wasn't too far off, was I? You make a lot of assumptions, too, and less well founded.

Back on topic, those things like imported food, home heating, water for personal use, transportation of most everything we use, they all have a need for reliable grid power, along with communications (far more vulnerable than the power grid), and electronics for record keeping and the whole of the financial system. I doubt that life would go on as we know it for long with significant damage to the above systems that has been predicted to occur with a solar emission of enough intensity.

I can't even buy a burger when the electronic cash register is down for whatever reason.

For your reading pleasure, may I suggest the following: http://www.empcommission.org/
On that page is a link the Commission's Report.

Here are a couple other items on the subject of protecting what you have from EMP.
http://www.futurescience.com/emp/emp-protection.html
http://www.aussurvivalist.com/nuclear/empprotection.htm

There is a lot of debate about EMP, and what would or would not be damaged. I don't pretend to know as much as the experts, so I offer the above for folks to think about.

These sites track such events: 
http://www.spacesafetymagazine.com/tag/coronal-mass-ejection/
http://www.spaceweather.com/

The last I read about it, NASA was working out a plan to shut down the grid if a super CME was in the offing, but there was some resistance to that in political circles. Haven't seen any more about it, so it doesn't SOUND LIKE it went anywhere. I hope they DO get their act together on this.

If, indeed I am right about the degree of damage possible from a CME, or EMP, I hope to never learn that by experience. It never hurts to have a backup plan, though.


----------



## labotomi

machinist said:


> My alternatives


We're discussing nuclear power plants and you think I'm talking about your personal alternative? Really?

An EE with a prior nuclear background and experience yet I must know nothing about a CME or nuclear plants. Sounds logical. Apparently a youtube education is better nowadays.

About your assumptions. With what I've stated, it would take an extra chromosome to prevent someone from being able to determine that I have a background in nuclear power. But if it makes you feel better... Way to go Sherlock.

Concerning your link... I've already read that and many others. Amazingly it doesn't mention nuclear reactors at all, so I'm not sure why you seem to think this validates your position. If you think I stated that there's no danger from a CME then you look a little further back. I distinctly stated that things would be bad, but I disagree that the severity will be nearly as bad as "most" think.

Edit: My comment concerned the EMP commission link, no the additional ones added after my reply.


----------



## machinist

Apply my alternatives on a broad scale across the country, and we could shut in some power plants. But most people are lazy and won't do that. 

My point is that alternatives do exist that are cleaner and safer than what we have now, a mix of fossil fuel and nuclear plants. They just aren't likely to happen, as I see it. 

I'm sure I won't change your views, nor you mine, as to the nuclear power situation. I'll leave it at that. 

I was trying to ease the discussion back on topic, as to the potential damage asked about in the OP.


----------



## LincTex

labotomi said:


> Having worked on those back up generators, I can say that they can be controlled by manual means, so the controls aren't an issue. The starting is done by air motors (not much to fail there). And the concerns about mechanical problems are addressed not only by testing and maintenance on a regular basis, but by having several redundant units so that not all are needed to perform the task.


I think most of the concerns that folks have about multiple redundancy is that even the best laid plans can sometimes go wrong.

What if the guy who really knows how to operate the manual controls was sick that day, or tripped and fell down the stairs and can't get to the controls? Maybe the other person (alternate) who is qualified is now frozen in panic? Maybe he assumes the first guy is taking care of it?

I know this thread has drifted quite a bit off topic, but anyone who has ever dealt with large processes that require multiple minds to make function knows this: Sometimes things just go SNAFU. Example: United Airlines Flight 232 - all THREE hydraulic (primary, with redundancy to a redundant system) systems failed. Nobody could have ever predicted that could have even POSSIBLY happened.

I guess what I am getting at is this: Even the best engineered and most redundant and alternatively controlled systems anywhere in the world can still fail when multiple modes of failure are compounded.

I do not believe a major CME event can cause the next "China Syndrome", but the big "What If" that Machinist is trying to get across is what can happen if multiple (related or unrelated) events exacerbate the situation?


----------



## labotomi

LincTex said:


> I think most of the concerns that folks have about multiple redundancy is that even the best laid plans can sometimes go wrong.
> 
> What if the guy who really knows how to operate the manual controls was sick that day, or tripped and fell down the stairs and can't get to the controls? Maybe the other person (alternate) who is qualified is now frozen in panic? Maybe he assumes the first guy is taking care of it?
> 
> I know this thread has drifted quite a bit off topic, but anyone who has ever dealt with large processes that require multiple minds to make function knows this: Sometimes things just go SNAFU. Example: United Airlines Flight 232 - all THREE hydraulic (primary, with redundancy to a redundant system) systems failed. Nobody could have ever predicted that could have even POSSIBLY happened.
> 
> I guess what I am getting at is this: Even the best engineered and most redundant and alternatively controlled systems anywhere in the world can still fail when multiple modes of failure are compounded.
> 
> I do not believe a major CME event can cause the next "China Syndrome", but the big "What If" that Machinist is trying to get across is what can happen if multiple (related or unrelated) events exacerbate the situation?


I'm not saying that everything will operate perfectly, but countering statements like this.



machinist said:


> What concerns me are those 100+ nuclear power plants in the US that REQUIRE power to stay under control. *Lose power to them and you have 100+ Fukushima events.* Now THAT is bad news!


Ignorance (for lack of a better term) is what leads people to this viewpoint. They have no knowledge of what protections are in place and only point to Fukishima as an example when is is an extreme case of what you can't plan for or engineer a facility to withstand. It's possible that another Fukishima type incident will occur but simply stating that losing power will cause every one of the reactors to end up like that is incorrect.

Eventually there will be an earthquake with a magnitude larger than any structure in California is designed to withstand. Are people going to come out of the woodwork and say that we should have planned for this and constructed buildings that hovered above the ground? Are they going to criticize people for living in California? Will Californians criticize people for living along the New Madrid Fault line if it shifts?

The people protesting nuclear power plants now are the same ones who enjoyed the power from them for years. Without them everyone (in the world) would be paying much more for gas. As the price of gas goes, so does everything else. It's likely we would be in a crisis due to using up what reserves we had at a faster rate than we did.


----------



## Outpost

labotomi said:


> The people protesting nuclear power plants now are the same ones who enjoyed the power from them for years. Without them everyone (in the world) would be paying much more for gas. As the price of gas goes, so does everything else. It's likely we would be in a crisis due to using up what reserves we had at a faster rate than we did.


The first thing I want to do is second your sentiment.

The reason our electricity bills are so high here in New Hampshire is due to the on-again off-again construction of Seabrook. People were contracted to build, then the "ClamShell Alliance" came all the way from the left coast to get an injunction against construction. The folks who were contracted still had to be paid. Then the injunction was lifted and folks were again contracted. Then, a *new* injunction.... This crap happened 3 times that I specifically remember. Ultimately, the cost of building the thing was so profoundly bloated from the original estimates, the electric company here was allowed to charge "CWIP" (Construction Work In Progress) fees. That started back in the 70s and we're *STILL* feeling the effects.

I have a deep and abiding respect for anything radioactive, but if nuke-plants were actually as dangerous as folks think Fukushima would have resulted in TEOTWAWKI *Globally*! Chernobyl seems to be more the result of a different philosophy of life. Communists believe individual humans are an expendable, or *consumable* commodity; nothing more than things to be used up for the *greater good*, and any "safeguards" in place usually sacrifice the direct participants and those in immediate proximity.

Now.... The second thing I want to do is get back to talking about C.M.E.s.

The magnitude of C.M.E. required to directly clobber personal equipment would have to be almost unreal. From a significant C.M.E., the power induced into the transmission lines could certainly pop transformers and throw breakers, and the resulting spikes on the lines could very well beat the snot out of things like TVs, personal computers and other "sensitive" electronics connected to the grid at that time. (another good argument for UPS devices on home electronics).

I truly believe that the only way to nail the average vehicle would be with a (relatively) close-proximity man-made EMP device, be it a nuclear EMP (which would, most likely, also temporarily ionize the local "atmosphere" and render RF communications impossible), or a close EMP *bomb*.

I feel the greatest danger is simply the loss of grid-power on a large scale for an extended length of time. Even that would take a very very significant Solar event. That kind of power-outage is probably more likely the result of something man-made. (our grid and transmission lines are above-ground and accessible by anyone with an agenda, and the time and gonads to carry it out)

...I now await enlightenment....

:beercheer:


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## BORN_FREE

"One Second After" A very good read for any prep per.


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## smaj100

BORN_FREE said:


> "One Second After" A very good read for any prep per.


That was an awesome book, and gave while the authors point of view; a picture into what people, and society would become after a major disruption in transportation and power. It was scary to see how quickly things collapsed into chaos, and in the end the trials and tribulations of communities that banded together to survive.

:congrat:


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## sw_va

Back in the spring of 2011. I meet a guy that works for nasa in our garage. He said that the govt. knows that when a massive solar flare does happen like the one in 1850s it will be bad. He said it would take them 7 years atleast to get the power back on. The govt has since then put in short wave am radio towers all over for comunication. I use to do service on govt. vehicals and meet alot of people.


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## stayingthegame

I think the question is ... if an EMP hit it would knock out a portion of the grid. will the electric people be willing to shut down the working parts to try and save as much of the grid as possible? I think not. not until it is to late as most people will get hostile if they lose there power to save another grid. most people are not that generous when it comes to giving up their own comfort to help another.


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## labotomi

stayingthegame said:


> I think the question is ... if an EMP hit it would knock out a portion of the grid. will the electric people be willing to shut down the working parts to try and save as much of the grid as possible? I think not. not until it is to late as most people will get hostile if they lose there power to save another grid. most people are not that generous when it comes to giving up their own comfort to help another.


With the exception of minor players in the distribution industry, the grid is controlled using SCADA systems, not some local riding down to a local substation. The people making the decisions and operating the disconnects and breakers aren't in the same location or even region as the actual equipment. It's not their families electricity they're cutting off. Plus they know it would be better to have the power off for a relatively short duration than have it off indefinitely.

If the decision is to be made to shut off a portion or all of the electrical infrastructure, it's not going to be made by popular vote. There's not thing democratic about the running of private businesses and certainly not when the government has already stepped in and taken control due to security issues that would arise by "not" protecting as much of the distribution system as possible.


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## LincTex

stayingthegame said:


> I think the question is ... if an EMP hit it would knock out a portion of the grid, will the electric people be willing to shut down the working parts to try and save as much of the grid as possible? I think not.


I think the question you should instead ask would be: "Will the automated controls work as they should and not be affected?".

"Electric People" having an opinion on where the power should go don't really have as much say as you think. I do know about "rolling blackouts" to accomplish load shedding when power demand is high in certain areas, but these are highly-thought-out activities. In an emergency (like a CME), the priority is to save the equipment first, and then afterward energize small portions of the grid only after integrity is established.


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## labotomi

LincTex said:


> I think the question you should instead ask would be: "Will the automated controls work as they should and not be affected?".
> 
> "Electric People" having an opinion on where the power should go don't really have as much say as you think. I do know about "rolling blackouts" to accomplish load shedding when power demand is high in certain areas, but these are highly-thought-out activities. In an emergency (like a CME), the priority is to save the equipment first, and then afterward energize small portions of the grid only after integrity is established.


With a CME headed this direction, I don't think it's up to the automated equipment to perform it's intended purpose. If they wait until the CME hits they're too late to take meaningful action to prevent the majority of damage.

Automated controls act according to set parameters and while it's designed to protect the equipment, it cannot operate in a manner to protect things it cannot sense. It cannot predict events that are widespread simply by analysis of the local conditions.. The decision needs to be made by people who have the interest of grid preservation first and foremost. It will annoy a lot of people who's power is cut, but even if they can't see it, the cut in power for a few hours/days is much better than a prolonged outage in which equipment must be replaced before it's even possible to restore power.

If a massive CME directed at the Earth is detected they will have 2 to 3 days notice in which to take action. Personally, I believe the best course of action would be to alert the public that they are going to shutdown and/or isolate portions of the power distribution network in hopes of minimizing long term damage. Of course there will be runs on supermarkets and gas stations but that's better than what would happen if the grid was damaged by doing nothing.


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## LincTex

labotomi said:


> ... the cut in power for a few hours/days is much better than a prolonged outage in which equipment must be replaced before it's even possible to restore power.


Of the two evils presented, it is the FAR lesser one


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