# IV Sets



## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

ok, I KNOW I'm not a doctor or an RN, so let's just get that out of the way first. I need/want opinions and info about having IV sets and fluid bags on hand. Here's what I'm talking about specifically.

http://www.amazon.com/Administration-Set-10Dr-100-inch/dp/B000MVXBD0/ref=pd_sim_hpc_2

and this

http://www.amazon.com/Hospira-Lifecare-Sodium-Chloride-1000mL/dp/B004YYLAFW/ref=pd_bxgy_misc_img_c

Is this ok for humans? I think it's from a vet supply company.

The neighbor across the road from us has been an RN for many years but I'm afraid to ask her to teach me anything because I've tried to feel her out about preparedness and she looks at me like I'm from outer space. Yes, I know I should take a class. But then I'd have to figure out how to print money in my basement.


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

maybe you could audit some classes?

of course 'practicals' & labs generally aren't auditable, which is where all of the 'hands on' stuff happens

still a lot of financial aid available for phleb techs :dunno:


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## tac803 (Nov 21, 2010)

Starting an IV requires a bit of skill that only comes from practice. Some people are very difficult to drop a line on, and if you don't know what you are doing, you can cause a lot of damage poking around in somebody's arm with a 14 ga. angiocath.


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## Moby76065 (Jul 31, 2012)

This is a skill set everyone can learn. It does indeed take some practice and a nurse or other suitable professional should teach you. But it's not that hard. When I was a DiveMedic as a Commercail diver we learned to start an IV. But this should only be done in conjucntion with an IRT course (Immediate Response to Truama) If you can't stop the bleeding, you'll lose your loved one. I know money is tight today, but medical training is something I feel everyone should do.


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## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

I'm not even really thinking about this for gigantic trauma situations....no sucking chest wounds or anything. That would be FAR outside my ability to take care of. I'm thinking more along the lines of dehydration due to diarrhea and/or vomiting from flu or food illness.


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

Well ditto to everything everyone above has said. Big time ditto. Get the education to know what fluid, how much fluid, how fast to run the fluid, what size catheter to use, where to inject it, what to inspect to make sure fluid is still good, what are bad reactions to the fluid, what are injection site concerns, what to do for a catheter shear, what to measure to see if you are giving too much or too little fluid, as you can tell the list goes on and on. The actual skill is what I call a monkey skill. Anyone can start an IV. Whether you want them starting one on you, that's another thing.

Find a EMT class (most will not teach you IV skills but is a pre-rec for a EMT-Intermediate class which will, an EMT class would also be a pre-req for Paramedic) or find a phelbotamist class. I think the ARC has them for under a grand. Stay away from nursing programs as they do not usually spend much time on IV's. Ok, everyone fair warning that flaming can be done. A nurse, unless it is for prolonged care, cannot take the place of a properly trained paramedic. A paramedic is a physician extender for the field. A nurse in the ER setting operates under direct supervision of a doctor through protocols. A paramedic has protocols as well, but exercises their own judgement every patient. A paramedic can become an RN by challenging the nursing program tests, take a practical exam (no practical hours) and sit for nursing boards without ever stepping foot in a classroom. A RN cannot become a paramedic without taking a program. Nurses are not taught how to use the equipment a paramedic uses every day. They do however excel far past the average medic in prolonged care and advanced drug therapy (IF they are an ICU trained RN) I have had more than one RN come on a ride with me because of a type of med going and they are told to just sit there and be quiet.

However if you chose to ignore everything everyone has said, those items are the same used in countless hospitals and ambulances. Be sure you know by rote the dos and don'ts of IVs and the fluids. Know which catheters to use (and how to secure them) and get something to practice on regularly (like a spouse  )
http://www.amazon.com/Intravenous-I...80360&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=iv+practice+arm


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

There's no way of knowing if that fluid is sterile. I wouldn't chance it. There's nothing that fluid would fix that would be any worse than sepsis.

From my experience, phleb techs are never allowed to even touch an IV. If the lab needs blood from an IV patient, either the nurse gets it or the patient is stuck somewhere else by the lab.

IV administration is serious business. The risk of infection goes up exponentially administering anything through an IV. Sepsis is nothing to play with. The trained professionals even have problems preventing an infection from occurring. Fluids & electrolytes are also serious business & complicated (to put it mildly), administering things IV can throw things so out of whack the patient could die within hours. There's a lot of knowledge & continual assessment that is extremely important with IVs. Without it bad things can happen. Not even all nurses administer IVs.


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

tac803 said:


> Starting an IV requires a bit of skill that only comes from practice. Some people are very difficult to drop a line on, and if you don't know what you are doing, you can cause a lot of damage poking around in somebody's arm with a 14 ga. angiocath.


hahaha *somebody* is showing their age...  

aren't most abbocaths for general use 18g now? (except for massive trauma)

:dunno:


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

Nah he ain't showing his age. Just a few years ago I dropped a 16 in someones AC for ringers and a 14ga 3 inch in his EJ for saline. This was a shooting victim who needed the fluids. I must say though that there is few things more fun than jabbing people in the neck with a needle.....

I usually did 22-18 ga depending on several factors. And just in case someone did not know, the gauge means how many fit in a inch. A 14ga would be 14 needles side by side to get an inch. It is the same as wires.

A phleb tech may not be allowed to do IV's but they still know the process. Just putting things in instead of taking out. I would rather someone have phelb training then no training if they are looking at sticking me. Oh and it is really fun if you cross your eyes and shake your hand a bit while going to do it. I remember one patient look at me aghast because I was going to do the IV while the ambulance was moving. I told her I couldn't hit the vein if we sat still.

But back to the OP, get the education before even thinking about stocking this stuff. Too much can go wrong and DO in healthcare settings. Things like site infections and cath shears are parts of major studies. Infections are also a reason why some hospitals try to avoid foley caths.

That fluid is most likely sterile. The bigger question is do you know how to maintain its sterility and what to check for before using it?


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

lazydaisy67 said:


> I'm not even really thinking about this for gigantic trauma situations....no sucking chest wounds or anything. That would be FAR outside my ability to take care of. I'm thinking more along the lines of dehydration due to diarrhea and/or vomiting from flu or food illness.


Proctoclysis is a rehydration method that is used as an alternative to IV fluids. It is the reintroduction of fluids into the body by means of an enema. Granted, doesn't sound pleasant but its probable better than rupturing someone's vein trying to start an IV, and if someone's life depends on it after the SHTF then its definitely more reliable!

I am an advocate of a community approach to prepping, so I am going to say the obvious, why not get yourself a MD, PA, NP, RN or even EMT who can help you with advanced medical care when needed post SHTF? I've got about a half dozen in my family, almost wish I could trade for someone who knows something about raising livestock .


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## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

I appreciate the info, and the knowledge and experience your replies clearly exhibit. I did some checking and the Paramedic program that I would have access to costs $10,000. I may continue to check into it further.

I guess in my book trying to do something is better than not trying at all. If we ever get to a place where we can't call for an ambulance or get to a town with a hospital then I guess a lot of us will just watch people die while thinking "Gee, I wish I would have taken the Paramedic classes at the community college cause then I could have given my 10 yr old IV fluids instead of holding his hand while he dies from dehydration." And I'm NOT saying that in a snarkey way, I'm just wondering out loud if trying isn't better than not trying. I would imagine that there are many, many paramedics who evaluate a situation and think to themselves "there's no way this guy is going to make it" but they try anyway.
So in the event SHTF, how will paramedics or nurses or doctors be able to perform their jobs? Eventually, the equipment will run out. Can you imagine the trama field of medicine without a functioning vehicle or hospital for that matter? No meds, no clean instruments or needles, no saline, no nothing. Can people in the medical field use their skills in an environment like that or are they only as good as they equipment they have access to?


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## tac803 (Nov 21, 2010)

The_Blob said:


> hahaha *somebody* is showing their age...
> 
> aren't most abbocaths for general use 18g now? (except for massive trauma)
> 
> :dunno:


:scratch Age??? Naw, just experience 

We used to have to scrounge the 14s from the trauma unit cause they weren't exactly in the box o' tricks on the bus. They were nice cause you could drop a liter of ringers in short order on trauma victims.

As to the question about equipment running out post shtf, absolutely would be a problem. You can't "mcgiver" an IV set. On the other hand, when the doc used to come to the house and give injections, (ok, NOW I'm showing my age!!!) he'd have a reuseable needle that had been cleaned (we hoped!), and if we were lucky, sharpened! The skill set acquired as a Boy Scout first aider, first responder, EMT, and Paramedic are cumulative skills that can fade over the years, but are always there in one form of another. One of the most important things I learned early on was the ability to improvise if needed. Shirts and socks for bleeding control, newspapers and magazines for arm splints, the list goes on and on. The skills are more important than the stuff in most cases.


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## 101airborne (Jan 29, 2010)

tsrwivey said:


> There's no way of knowing if that fluid is sterile. I wouldn't chance it. There's nothing that fluid would fix that would be any worse than sepsis.


 Actually I have ordered from this exact supplier before. ALL of their I.V. supplies are sealed in sterile packaging. There is NO difference between these items and prescription only supplies. Except the label. That is done as a way to get around the stupidity of the FDA and Goobermint morons. While true these supplies are mainly used as vetrenary treatment, I am trained as an EMT/Paremedic as well as military combat medic trained. I have started and maintained I.V.'s dozens of times and would have no problem using supplies from this supplier on self or family in an emergency and other help is to far away or non existant.

The issue is keeping it sterile and within expiration date.


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## Moby76065 (Jul 31, 2012)

Proctoclysis is a rehydration method that is used as an alternative to IV fluids. It is the reintroduction of fluids into the body by means of an enema. Granted, doesn't sound pleasant but its probable better than rupturing someone's vein trying to start an IV, and if someone's life depends on it after the SHTF then its definitely more reliable! 

If I'm ever dehydrated please let me die before shoving a hose up my butt. The embarassment of living through that will be too much for me to handle. LOLOLOLOL


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## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

How is fluid in a bag kept sterile now? As far as expiration dates.....I'm not sure if that's very realistic. I suppose if things are only somewhat collapsed it may be possible to barter with somebody who might know of somebody who found a stash of medical supplies in an underground bunker with electricity.....in a movie. 

I guess you have to be able to totally separate today's reality from what could be reality in the future. Would I try to set an IV today? Of course not. Were I to have the ability to take a friend or loved one to the doctor in the future I would certainly do so, but I live 15 miles from the nearest hospital and a minimum of 7 miles from the nearest PA, and the elderly RN across the road.....so doctoring of any sort in a collapse situation is precarious at best for me and mine. Picture trying to haul an injured person 15 miles on horseback to get to a doctor because there's no gas in the vehicles. And then picture getting them to the hospital alive only to find that it's become a morgue and there are no medical supplies and no doctors. 

I'm going to keep trying. I probably can't take a $10,000 class anytime soon, but I WILL keep trying. Part of prepping is having hope. I won't give up hope that I will be able to help my family if the need arises, and I certainly won't give up the hope that I will never have to.


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## DKRinAK (Nov 21, 2011)

*In addation to all the other*

You might want to check the laws locally on possession of IV sets, etc.

I appreciate that you would want to be of assistance, and want the IVs for use "Only in the case of a major disaster, SHTF, etc,etc." I would point out that the State of LA is still working it's way through court cases related to Katrina. The disaster will end, in the "After" is when you will face the music. And there is always an after - esp if someone you 'helped' died, no matter the how or why.
*****

Why not -
take some first aid training? Training gets old or forgotten, so refresher courses are important.

Learn how to make re-hydration solution and keep the ingredients on hand?

Get your neighbors to take first aid training or see if a CERT organization is active in your area?

See what you can do to _prevent_ the causes of dehydration in the first place? Clean water, good local sanitation and on and on. That all takes gear and some minimal training, - go for that now.
*****

So, while I applaud your desire to help, I would caution that what you seem to be thinking of may be illegal in your State and if you screw up (esp without professional certification/license) there is a good possibility of spending some serious time in the lockup.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

lazydaisy67 said:


> I guess in my book trying to do something is better than not trying at all. If we ever get to a place where we can't call for an ambulance or get to a town with a hospital then I guess a lot of us will just watch people die while thinking "Gee, I wish I would have taken the Paramedic classes at the community college cause then I could have given my 10 yr old IV fluids instead of holding his hand while he dies from dehydration." And I'm NOT saying that in a snarkey way, I'm just wondering out loud if trying isn't better than not trying. I would imagine that there are many, many paramedics who evaluate a situation and think to themselves "there's no way this guy is going to make it" but they try anyway.
> So in the event SHTF, how will paramedics or nurses or doctors be able to perform their jobs? Eventually, the equipment will run out. Can you imagine the trama field of medicine without a functioning vehicle or hospital for that matter? No meds, no clean instruments or needles, no saline, no nothing. Can people in the medical field use their skills in an environment like that or are they only as good as they equipment they have access to?


You raise a lot of good questions. For me, I would rather something bad happen when I didn't do anything than something bad happen because of what I did do. Luckily, there's a lot of things that can be done in between doing nothing & giving IV fluids. :2thumb: Besides, trying to start an IV on a dehydrated kid is no fun. You could learn to drop a feeding tube a lot easier & with a lot less risk to the patient, then put fluids, meds, whatever through that.

I have thought long & hard about how useful my knowledge & skills would be in an environment without the medical supplies I'm used to. It's something I work on regularly but there would definately be limitations put on what we could do. It would be extremely hard watching someone die knowing he could've been saved with the right meds/equipment.


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## 101airborne (Jan 29, 2010)

lazydaisy67 said:


> How is fluid in a bag kept sterile now? As far as expiration dates.....
> I'm going to keep trying. I probably can't take a $10,000 class anytime soon, but I WILL keep trying. Part of prepping is having hope. I won't give up hope that I will be able to help my family if the need arises, and I certainly won't give up the hope that I will never have to.


 Daisy. Saline solution bags are usually sealed in an outer plastic wrap. At least those i have bought are as well as the tubing. I.V. needles come seperately, and are also sealed. The Saline "bags" I've bought have had a 10 year storage life, IF properly stored ( not exposed to temperature extremes stored in a vehicle) Do you have a community college or whatever in your area? Here ( Ivy tech) has a first responder ( on line) class that costs around $75. They also have an on line EMT class that's around $3oo. After that they have a class on "maintaining an I.V. that shows the "how to" on I.V.'s that I think is around $100. Those will give you some decent first aid training as well as I.V. training. You may even be able to do the I.V. class as a stand alone. It's worth a shot. You might also check with the red cross or your local EMA about classes.


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## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

The only community college I have access to has an EMT program for $3500 and the Paramedic program for $10,000. I am already certified in CPR and First Aid so the EMT class would probably be the next step. I thought about the nursing program as well, but not sure if that's the kind of thing I'm looking for. If I'm going to fork out money or go into debt with student loans I want to have some valuable abilities.


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

Moby76065 said:


> If I'm ever dehydrated please let me die before shoving a hose up my butt. The embarassment of living through that will be too much for me to handle. LOLOLOLOL


"It rubs the lotion on its skin, or else it gets the hose again."


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## jumper13 (Aug 13, 2011)

lazydaisy67 said:


> The only community college I have access to has an EMT program for $3500 and the Paramedic program for $10,000. I am already certified in CPR and First Aid so the EMT class would probably be the next step. I thought about the nursing program as well, but not sure if that's the kind of thing I'm looking for. If I'm going to fork out money or go into debt with student loans I want to have some valuable abilities.


Hi, Daisy.

Alot of good info here. Some things to remember: 
1. most IV fluids expire after about 2 years, so there is not much shelf life to them. 
2. If you are worried about dehydration, then stock up on rehydration salts (available OTC, and they do not expire) or make your own (http://rehydrate.org/solutions/homemade.htm ) to mix with water. Have your patient frequently drink this mixture every hour of so BEFORE they get so dehydrated that they can't drink. They should be drinking about a quart every 2-3 hours in severe cases of fever, dairrhea, vomiting, etc. You can usually avoid the need to start an IV this way by staying ahead of the illness. A critical thing here is the electrolytes, without which your body can't continue to function, so if you are giving electrolytes (not just water), you can usually keep them stable. This will be an absolutely critical SHTF skill. 
3. Invest in a good EMT class. Most community colleges offer this course in one semester, and you can attend at night. $3,500 is pretty pricey for an EMT course, which can ususally be found for less than $1,000 at a public community college. You can always upgrade to an Advanced EMT for another semester, which will allow you to start IVs if you feel the need to go this far. 
4. If your goal is to be able to provide medical care in a disaster situation only, then don't bother going to Paramedic school. In a collapse medicine situation, you will find all of us advanced medical folks, including physicians, practicing at the EMT level because we will not have access to the medicines, equipment, diagnostics, etc that we usually use, so everyone will basically be EMTs again with alot of medical knowledge that we are very limited in putting to use. 
5. Regarding RNs and Paramedics: both are the same level of care (advanced life support and critical care). The main difference is that Paramedics are trained to initially save patient's lives and stabilize them, and RNs are trained to make sure that patient actually recoveres long-term. For the true professionals in both fields, they are cross-trained to the extent that both know what the other is doing, and there is a mutual respect of each specialty rather than a comparison of which is better. Anyone trying to make their skills and knowlege better than the other is not a true professional.

Hope this helps!


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## tac803 (Nov 21, 2010)

lazydaisy67 said:


> The only community college I have access to has an EMT program for $3500 and the Paramedic program for $10,000. I am already certified in CPR and First Aid so the EMT class would probably be the next step. I thought about the nursing program as well, but not sure if that's the kind of thing I'm looking for. If I'm going to fork out money or go into debt with student loans I want to have some valuable abilities.


I'm not sure about where you are, but the volunteer fire and ems units around here will pay for your training after you sign up. As an added bonus, you get a chance to help your community and get some pretty usefull skills as well.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

Moby76065 said:


> Proctoclysis ...
> 
> If I'm ever dehydrated please let me die before shoving a hose up my butt. The embarassment of living through that will be too much for me to handle. LOLOLOLOL


I almost fell out of my chair lauging!!! 

I was almost too embarassed to post that little tidbit.

Cheers.:beercheer:


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

lazydaisy67 said:


> I appreciate the info, and the knowledge and experience your replies clearly exhibit.


Nope, I wanted to be an MD when I was little, but can't stand the smell of bodily fluids. I go into a patients room, even to this day, and if there is the SLIGHTEST smell, I start gagging and soon thereafter the explosive vomit arrives. I can't even go to the dump on a hot day 

I just happened upon that tidbit while buying some medical supplies and wondering about the same issue. I have been hospitalized once for (food poisoning) dehydration, and thought having IV fluids might be a good idea, particularly since I have a bunch of nurses and doctors in my family who would know how to use those supplies.


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## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

I already have the recipe for homemade 'gatorade' laminated and in my med box, so hopefully that will be the best thing I will be able to do. 

I thought that EMT class was pricey too. There is an emergency medical responder class. Is that what I want? Sheesh, college is confusing, lol.


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

See if you can find something that is not on a college campus. I paid 3500 for my paramedic class. I think my emt was only a couple hundred. Take the lowest course that carries an actual certification and see if you actually like it. The classes are long and involved and you may end up hating it.

The idea posted about the feeding tube is a good one. A simple NG tube is pretty easy to place, just stay away from the lungs! That may help you get fluids into someone and keep them there. Be sure to look into the legality about having this stuff without a MD order. A lot of people do not realize that medicines (IV fluid is a medicine according to the government) are used in a ambulance because a doctor signed a piece of paper.

Jumper, I hope you were not reading too much into what I was saying. I truly respect the nursing field, and esp those that have that cross training such as ER, Flight, OR, PACU and ICU nurses. But I have also seen many an RN not sure which end the bedpan goes under. That being said, there is more than one medic out there who got sent back to school or another company because they couldn't show me that they understood just why xyz is important. My mother has been a ER RN for almost 25 years. I wouldn't dream of telling any RN how to be proper patient advocates in long term care. I can think of several RN's that have come to me to ask for advice or help in emergency settings. Medics and RN's have different roles. If I am in a life or death situation, I want a medic (sometimes even over a doc) but if I am admitted to a hospital or needing home care, nobody beats a nurse in making sure all of my needs are met.

Once a SHTF situation happens, there will be a mad dash to squirrel away what people can for medical use. You will probably have people grabbing things because they look good without any idea how it works. Think of the Monty Python skit of woman giving birth "get the machine that goes ping!" Once the supplies run out (we can't even keep adequate supplies of meds now) then a medics technical skills will be on the wayside with a macgyver skill set coming to the front. What will be important is a brain. A brain can differentially diagnosis outside of the protocols, it can come up with new ways of doing things, can figure out why is this and that happening and what to do to treat it. The oldtime doctors did that. They didn't have 28,378 different tests for a sliver in your finger. They had tweezers. Just like everything else, our brains will get us through it. Training beforehand (and the hands on using that training) will give you the base. Of course, just like the rest of humanity, not everyone has that critical thinking. Those medics are what I called cook book medics. They did everything by protocol, never thinking (I am not saying they should deviate) beyond the few things that are protocols as a starting point. Those people will not be able to do much once the tech and meds are all gone. Of course, they could surprise people. After all, I am sure politicians will find a way to survive as well.

So long story short (too late) don't worry about getting your paramedic. Thats a low paying back breaking depressing career (and I enjoyed every minute of it.) Find an EMT course, take it, join a local volunteer ambulance squad or fire department and have some fun, help people, learn how to use the skills and then if you want, move on in the field.


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## Beaniemaster2 (May 22, 2012)

lazydaisy67... I understand exactly where you are coming from! I am not a medical person either and I hope I don't get alot of flack for my info but I do know I couldn't stand by and do nothing either... but I really must stress that I would 'only' do this in an extreme SHTF situation and only if I had no other choice to try and save a loved one...

Of course having formal training is always preferred but some people just don't have that option or the money to do so but some basic knowledge is better than none... There are many video's on Youtube to learn how to insert an IV... I like these but do watch many of the others too and get as much knowledge as possible and yes, do consider the other options mentioned of rehydrating first...










Thanks to whoever posted that practice pad on amazon, I am going to order one and thanks to who posted the homemade solution site too!!!

As far as IV supplies go, I have dealt with this company a few times and until Aug 31st you can get 10%off using code dm10off
http://www.dealmed.com/

I bought the basics to have in my emergency supplies and didn't cost alot:
#656069 Complete IV starter kit $9.95 (includes 20ga cathater)
#463002 IV Administration Set $2.34
#211324 Saline 0.9% 1000ml Sodium Chloride solution $5.20
I would also recommend ordering an extra cathater just in case and maybe a 24gx3/4 for a small child... Remember you need a complete kit for each patient but you can order extra solution for one person...

I would also recommend you get a suture kit for minor wounds...
Hope this helped Daisy...


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## 101airborne (Jan 29, 2010)

tac803 said:


> I'm not sure about where you are, but the volunteer fire and ems units around here will pay for your training after you sign up. As an added bonus, you get a chance to help your community and get some pretty usefull skills as well.


Good point I had forgotten about that. They do the same here.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

Padre said:


> Nope, I wanted to be an MD when I was little, but can't stand the smell of bodily fluids. I go into a patients room, even to this day, and if there is the SLIGHTEST smell, I start gagging and soon thereafter the explosive vomit arrives. I can't even go to the dumb on a hot day


Vick's salve put under your nose helps tremendously. This trick has gotten many medical folks through clinicals & beyond.


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

Beanie, those are good videos, but a video is not hands on practice and experience. Medical personal do not learn by watching a video and then moving onto the next subject. When a person finishes the school part about IV's they then go to the real world situation where a instructor is watching everything they are doing until they get anywhere from a dozen to a hundreds+ successful IV insertions (depending on what level they are at.) 

As a word of caution, there are easily a half dozen little minor things that are simple stupid mistakes that can in fact be fatal. Off the top of my head, catheter shear, air in line, forgetting to clean site causing infection, wrong needle at wrong site opening an artery (have in fact seen that one) not noticing the bag of fluids isn't 0.9% NaCl but actually KCl or heparin, or a handful of other bags that all look the same. Using something someone is allergic too... I am sure a couple of others can chime in. And thats just for starting an IV. What do you do when you get a large bubble forming at the insertion site? Or the skin feels cold, or the line stops flowing. How about if the line slows to a trickle? How would you flush the line if blood backs up into it? What if there is a clot in the line? Where is a good place to start the IV on various age groups? Where are bad places? How fast do you run the fluid in? What is a good maintenance rate? Just what exactly is the difference between a 10gtt, 15gtt, and a 60gtt drip set? When would you use each one? What other items should you have on hand besides you fluid, drip set and cath? These are all questions (and a slew of others) that one should be able to answer without thinking much about if you decide to start an IV. Now I am more than willing to do a write-up that would go over a lot of things if people would want, but I would still stress that education (hands on) is key in mastering this skill. Without the hands on, you probably will not have much luck when the pressure is on. When someone is dehydrated, the veins are hard to find because they lost that spongey feel, they are barely awake, and their survival depends on your ability to get the line into them in a short manor, do you really want to be on the spot wishing you practiced more?

I am not saying give up on it, just saying that a video is fine for the first part of the training. I mean, would you want me to re-do the crown molding in your house after I just watched a home makeover show?

When you practice, you want to have a box to practice with. Most of these caths are safety ones. Once you place the IV, you have to break it before you could even think about using it again. And yup you need to practice with several different sizes and lengths. If you get used to sticking that practice arm with a 20ga 1 1/4 inch cath, you will be surprised how hard it is to get the same vein with a 24ga 3/4 inch one. Just by fishing around you can pop the cath out of the skin and at that point you are supposed to get a fresh one.


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## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

I didn't ask this question because I want to start hydrating my family tomorrow. Of course prevention is key, of course drinking before it gets too bad would be ideal, and yes, it very well could be illegal, but you think we're going to have the 'practicing medicine' police after a collapse? COULD something bad happen? Sure, but something bad could happen if I didn't do it too, so it kind of seems like a draw to me. I KNOW I don't have the skill set needed to stick an IV in somebody's arm, but I don't think that should stop any of us from getting some of those basic supplies. I'd do an enema if I had to but I don't know how to do that any more than I know how to put in an IV. So, yes, I am crystal clear that as of today, I do not have the skills to do an IV. Maybe that will change, maybe not. I'm probably going to get some IV sets anyway, and and who knows, after the SHTF maybe a homeless Paramedic will happen by my remote farm at the exact time I need to put an IV in and will gladly do it for me.


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## kejmack (May 17, 2011)

lazydaisy67 said:


> I'm not even really thinking about this for gigantic trauma situations....no sucking chest wounds or anything. That would be FAR outside my ability to take care of. I'm thinking more along the lines of dehydration due to diarrhea and/or vomiting from flu or food illness.


The easiest remedy for diarrhea/fluid loss is a simple paste made of bananas, salt, sugar. It is taught to moms in South America where IV therapy is not readily available. Use molasses in place of sugar if you can find it, because molasses has more potassium.

I have medical training and that is the remedy I plan to use. I have a supply of freeze dried bananas just for that purpose. IV's expire. You can kill someone with an air embolism if you don't know what you are doing. There is a reason you have to be an Intermediate EMT before you are allowed to start an IV.


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## goatlady (Nov 7, 2011)

lazydaisy, gal you are on the right track. There are many "survival, remote, wilderness" seminars/classes available that teach safe IV therapy in about 30 minutes. BTDT myself several years ago. I learned from a practicing MD. He demonstrate the technique and then our class of 26 (none of which were in the medical field in any way) practiced for an hour on each other. NONE of us suffered from an air bubble, though several did have inappropriately punctured veins! It's not rocket science, just has basic safety steps to do. We even learned how to safely make sterile normal saline! Thinking outside the traditional box may save a life one day.


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## PrepN4Good (Dec 23, 2011)

I understand LD's point exactly; it of course would be preferable to have a trained professional take care of all our medical needs after TSHTF, but what are the chances of that? So, why not be prepared as possible (the point of this forum, I thought) & try to understand how to run an IV line _if you absolutely had to?_

We've had threads here before about whether or not to stock up on antibiotics from vet supply places, & I figured it was understood that if it came down to dying of an infection OR taking a fish antibiotic, most folks would make like a fishie. No? :scratch


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

goatlady said:


> lazydaisy, gal you are on the right track. There are many "survival, remote, wilderness" seminars/classes available that teach safe IV therapy in about 30 minutes.


I gaurantee you no one, even folks with a medical background, is taught safe IV therapy in 30 minutes. Someone lied to you in order to separate you from your money.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

PrepN4Good said:


> I understand LD's point exactly; it of course would be preferable to have a trained professional take care of all our medical needs after TSHTF, but what are the chances of that? So, why not be prepared as possible (the point of this forum, I thought) & try to understand how to run an IV line _if you absolutely had to?_
> 
> We've had threads here before about whether or not to stock up on antibiotics from vet supply places, & I figured it was understood that if it came down to dying of an infection OR taking a fish antibiotic, most folks would make like a fishie. No? :scratch


Medical skills are just like any other set of skills, some can be learned quickly & easily while others require a good deal of knowledge & practice. Also, some skills have a high incidence of really bad things happening when a step is missed or done incorrectly. IVs are notoriously unforgiving of mistakes & improper supervision. Everyone will do whatever they want to do, but there's a consensus here among the folks that've done this sort of thing professionally. I would've wanted someone to warn me if I could do immediate, life-threatening harm so I felt obligated to provide that warning. Do with it what you will. :flower:


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## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

kejmack said:


> The easiest remedy for diarrhea/fluid loss is a simple paste made of bananas, salt, sugar. It is taught to moms in South America where IV therapy is not readily available. Use molasses in place of sugar if you can find it, because molasses has more potassium.
> 
> I have medical training and that is the remedy I plan to use. I have a supply of freeze dried bananas just for that purpose. IV's expire. You can kill someone with an air embolism if you don't know what you are doing. There is a reason you have to be an Intermediate EMT before you are allowed to start an IV.


LOVE this suggestion. Practical, easy. Thanks! What if your patient can't keep anything down, fluids included?


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## jumper13 (Aug 13, 2011)

kejmack said:


> The easiest remedy for diarrhea/fluid loss is a simple paste made of bananas, salt, sugar. It is taught to moms in South America where IV therapy is not readily available. Use molasses in place of sugar if you can find it, because molasses has more potassium.
> 
> I have medical training and that is the remedy I plan to use. I have a supply of freeze dried bananas just for that purpose. IV's expire. You can kill someone with an air embolism if you don't know what you are doing. There is a reason you have to be an Intermediate EMT before you are allowed to start an IV.


Excellent suggestion. You can dilute the paste with water into a fluid so patients can drink it. This is an excellent suggestion that mirrors the effectiveness of the "banana bag" IVs that we use to treat electrolyte imbalance and severe dehydration. Good post, kejmack.


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

These last few posts have all been great. I think I will set aside ingredients for the paste myself.

This thread has shown a pretty strong rift. Those that are medically trained and experienced to start IVs are mostly saying, please don't because of these reasons. Then alternatives are suggested. The non medically trained (in IV's) are mostly saying we can handle it. That very well may be, but listen to voices of reason. We have been down that path of starting our first few lines and remember how it felt and what the pitfalls were.

I think the question of legality is not focused so much on using the IV sets, but in actually owning them. It is very much like having a bottle of prescription meds without the prescription. The forum is all about learning how to do things, but there have been at least 3 alternatives stated opposed to an IV. You can go PR (per rectum), Nasogastric / orogastric (I feel this is the best method) and the paste just above.

Look into natural anti-emetics such as ginger and mints (never saw much suggestion of mints, but helps my wife) to help subdue the nausea. If that fails, move onto another way of getting the fluids in. Sure you can do an IV, but that really should be a last resort. If nothing else to conserve the supplies.

To put things into a certain perspective, I can do a 30 min lecture and demo on defibrillation, intubation, and IV placement. I could reasonably feel ok with someone trying it on their own for the first two because there are only a few things to remember and be wary of. In both those cases, typically the patient is dead already. For intubating, just don't break the teeth and get it in the right hole. For defib, just make sure there is no pulse and nobody is touching them.

For a NG or OG tube, get this: 
http://www.amazon.com/Nasogastric-T...d=1344462057&sr=8-2&keywords=nasogastric+tube

and this: http://www.amazon.com/Dynarex-Pisto...62115&sr=1-1&keywords=60cc+irrigation+syringe

and this: http://www.amazon.com/Surgilube-Lub...UTF8&qid=1344462143&sr=1-1&keywords=surgilube

Lubricate the tube end (could inches worth, put it on heavy) measure (outside the body) roughly how much is needed to go from the nose to the belly using the tube itself. Mark the end where the nose is, thats how far down to go (roughly.) Stick it into the right nostril and keep pushing while the patient drinks some water through a straw. When he swallows, push a couple inches more. Once you think you are in place, squirt a 60cc syringe filled with water into the tube, if there is no resistance, you should be good. Tape it in place and pour fluid in through the syringe using it as a funnel. To remove, just pull it out. If you come out the mouth when starting, back out and try again. Bend the tube down a bit (like a hook) to make sure you are not bumping the brain. These are sized according to width, so plan accordingly.


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## Beaniemaster2 (May 22, 2012)

First, tejmack, thanks for the tip on the banana paste, could you provide a ratio of how much sugar, salt???

Second, it has already been stated many times that we would never attempt an IV unless we had no other choice in a severe SHTF situation but yet we continue to get lectures on not trying because we are not 'properly trained' and something could go wrong... Yes something could go wrong, they could die without any treatment at all...

I sincerely hope that all you EMT's and Medics never have to watch a loved one die from a gunshot wound because you stood back and did nothing because you weren't 'properly trained' to remove a bullet... 

We're supposed to be helping each other in here, so HELP already!!!


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

Beanie, did I not post useful information? Did I not give step by step guidelines on inserting a NG tube which can be used for re-hydration? Isn't it strange how none of the medical people on here have yet to provide instructions in 4 pages worth of posts on how to start an IV safely? Maybe we know how dangerous it is. In fact most of us have tried to discourage the starting of IVs without classroom and hands on training. 

And there is a huge difference between a EMT or Medic operating beyond their scope of practice because they have working knowledge and some training and some exp and some idea of what to do vs. a lay person having no idea what to do, performing invasive procedures. An IV is a introduction of something into the body that goes straight to the heart and lungs, you don't mess around with that. If you want to learn how to do it, get someone to teach and show you. Watching youtube videos and reading a step by step ain't gonna adequately prepare you when things go wrong. 

I am more than happy to help in these areas because I spent most of my life doing these skills. But I will impart what I feel is the better knowledge. If you really want to learn, than satisfy me that you have the required mindset. The background knowledge on what to do when things go wrong. I have seen Emergency Room Attending Physicians screw up IV placements. It will happen.


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## woodymedic (Aug 7, 2012)

tsrwivey said:


> There's no way of knowing if that fluid is sterile. I wouldn't chance it. There's nothing that fluid would fix that would be any worse than sepsis.
> 
> The risk of infection goes up exponentially administering anything through an IV. The trained professionals even have problems preventing an infection from occurring. Fluids & electrolytes are also serious business & complicated (to put it mildly), administering things IV can throw things so out of whack the patient could die within hours. There's a lot of knowledge & continual assessment that is extremely important with IVs. Without it bad things can happen. Not even all nurses administer IVs.


Okay, I guess I'll begin with the first statement. Yes of course you can figure out if the fluid is sterile. If it is, it will say STERILE on the bag and will come with an expiration date. Second, IV fluid admin can fix a lot of things like dehydration and hypovolemia, just to name two.

The infection risk is not NEARLY as high as this commentor is alluding, provided that aseptic technique is used. Electrolyte imbalance is possible, but only likely when you use hyper- or hypo-tonic solutions. For field purposes when the SHTF the only fluids anyone should use is normal saline or lactated ringers, period. There is knowledge and training that goes into initiating an IV, but it's not that hard. The military does it all the time with 18 year old kids who have no previous medical training whatsoever. And the only nurses I've ever worked with that don't start IV's are the ones that choose not to because they're not very experienced at it.

I'm paramedic with 8 years of experience in the field and in hospitals. I would not suggest that someone with no training start putting in IV's. But it's not hard to learn. I would suggest that everyone that can at least take an NREMT approved EMT-Basic class. And if you want to start IV's, take an Advanced EMT or Paramedic class. We all will benefit from experienced paramedical providers in the near future.


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## goatlady (Nov 7, 2011)

I was most happy to pay my hard earned $$ to learn the skills I did learn like proper IV insertions, basic physical exam techniques, and suturing. Also learned to drill and fill cavities and pull a few plus some bone setting/casting techniques. All those skills except the dentistry have come in handy with my animals and so far nobody has died, all have recovered nicely and completely. The "class" I was fortunate to take was 4 or 5 days of 8-10 hour days of classroom/hands on practice directly under an M.D.'s supervision, lots of one-on-one attention. We practiced on each other and nobody died, nobody got an infection, nobody fainted at the sight of blood pouring out of blown blood vessels by incorrect IV placement! We were all adults taking responsibility for our actions and the results thereof. I think many of us are trying to learn and develop some skills that just may be extremely helpful in a SHTF situation - we are NOT intending to "practice medicine" tomorrow, far from it. As long as conventional medical help is available, we are smart enough to know when to seek such help, but there may come a time in the future when that help is NOT available and that is what we are trying to learn to deal with to the best of our abilities.


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## jumper13 (Aug 13, 2011)

Beaniemaster2 said:


> First, tejmack, thanks for the tip on the banana paste, could you provide a ratio of how much sugar, salt???
> 
> Second, it has already been stated many times that we would never attempt an IV unless we had no other choice in a severe SHTF situation but yet we continue to get lectures on not trying because we are not 'properly trained' and something could go wrong... Yes something could go wrong, they could die without any treatment at all...
> 
> ...


Hi, Beanie.

I believe that non-medically-educated folks can be taught the skills you mention in order to perform them in a collapse situation. However, these skills* must *be taught hands-on, *not* through online videos or forum "lectures." Watching a video or reading instructions will not teach you the fine motor skills of actually performing advanced, invasive skills such as IVs, needle decompressions, chest tubes, etc. You will have a working knowlege of the skill from reading or videos, but you will *not* have been trained in the dexterity and "feel" of the procedure that is so critical to success, or the ability to assess a real patient and decide if the patient is a real candidate for the procedure. This includes the "easy" skills mentioned by JimM: intubation, NG tubes, etc. Improper procedure or "misses" during these skills can kill a patient, and they are not easy "skills" that should ever be attempted by laypersons.

Videos may make you familiar enough to be able to effectively assist someone who does have the proper training--however, don't even try these by yourself without proper hands-on education and copious repetetive practice until it becomes second-nature.

As for defibrillation, this will be a useless skill in a post-SHTF environment.

If non-medical folks want these skills, then seek professional education while it is still available. Otherwise, be content with very basic, non-invasive skills, and focus on prevention and safety instead.


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

For clarification, the defib and intubation I was referring to was for contrast about teaching an IV insertion skill. Personally I feel the NG tube to be the least dangerous (aside from PR) that would do what people are asking for. But I whole heartedly agree with you that without hands on instruction, feedback, and corrective instruction, anything invasive is dangerous.


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## tac803 (Nov 21, 2010)

Wow, this has gone from a simple question to a discussion about how much stuff people can do to a patient with little or no training! Look folks, IV therapy is a skill that has potentially lethal side effects, as well as the possibility of causing systemic infections and killing somebody if they get the wrong fluid or it's administered in the wrong way. There are potential problems with infiltration of fluids into the surrounding tissues and the other little things like, say, hitting an artery. If you want to learn how to do it, go take a class! Don't expect to be running from patient to patient in a post shtf scenario after watching a "how to" video with IV's in hand playing the hero. Ain't gonna happen.


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## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

ok, that's pretty much NOT what I was thinking in my mind about post SHTF medical help. Not even remotely close. In my thinking, there will be no electricity, no gas, no driving to the clinic or ER for help with any illness or wound. You're on your own with you and yours and if you don't have supplies, too bad, so sad. I don't know what kind of post SHTF scenario you're thinking about, but it's a fairly nice place to live in compared to mine.

Now, say you built a water filter, have a rocket stove and a pot for boiling and send your kids to the creek for a bucket full of water to cook with. It's 6 months into the collapse and you've gotten water this way the whole time. This time it's different. A step may have been missed, or an animal may have died up stream. Whatever the reason, the whole family gets stomach cramps an hour after supper and a half an hour after that diarrhea starts. The next day mom and dad feel better as does the 16 yr old, but the 11, 6 and 4 yr old still don't feel good and still have diarrhea. Mom knows little kids get dehydrated quickly and is making homemade Gatorade with bottled water. The 11 yr old gets better, and the next day the 6 yr old is feeling ok, too. But the 4 yr old is getting worse. He's still laying in bed but doesn't have energy to get up. Mom is still pushing and pushing the fluids, but his skin is 'tenting' and she knows he's dehydrated. He sleeps 16 hours a day but mom wakes him up to drink every hour. The amount she is able to get him to drink gets less and less and she's panicked because she doesn't know how to get any more fluids into him. She DOES know that IV fluids would hydrate him, but alas, she doesn't have any of that equipment in her stockpile. The poor little guy slips into a coma and dies on the 8th day. 
Neat, huh?
Other scenario...mom stockpiles some IV bags and sets, disregarding the 'professional' advice from friends about infection and doing harm. On day 5, when son's skin is 'tenting' and he's not able to drink very much, she inserts an IV. Son is recovered by 8th day.

Now, I'd like to think that out of every IV that is put in by professionals NONE of them end up having issues or get infected, but I know that's not the case. I don't consider myself to be even remotely as smart as the people on this forum that have a degree and experience, but I'm not an idiot, either. I don't have any intention of using any of my medical supplies TOMORROW. Only in an absolute dire set of circumstances, which could be sooner than we think. I almost feel like some of you imply that if I haven't graduated from the Paramedic program I HAVE to just sit and watch while my kids die from something that I could potentially treat. Will you do the same with your own family members? You don't have an MD behind your name so you won't be able to 'practice medicine' either. If you've been an EMT for years but don't have the piece of paper that says you can put an IV in, what would your actions be in the above scenario? Cause you and I both know that you'd stick a needle in their vein (gasp).
I know there may come a day when somebody in my family DOES get an injury that I can't treat. Digging a bullet out of somebody probably isn't going to happen. Inserting a chest tube, no way. Taking out an apendix....you get my point. We went through all of these arguments with the fish antibiotic thread and then as soon as Doc Doom and Bloom came on and said "You can use fish antibiotics" people were like, 'Oh, ok, cool." Apparently, the MD behind his name confirmed what other people's common sense had been saying all along.


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## jumper13 (Aug 13, 2011)

"ok, that's pretty much NOT what I was thinking in my mind about post SHTF medical help. Not even remotely close. In my thinking, there will be no electricity, no gas, no driving to the clinic or ER for help with any illness or wound. You're on your own with you and yours and if you don't have supplies, too bad, so sad. I don't know what kind of post SHTF scenario you're thinking about, but it's a fairly nice place to live in compared to mine."

Hi, Daisy.

The scenarios that you discussed above are very realistic and may very well happen. And yes, once a child gets to that level of dehydration, an IV and electrolyte therapy is the only thing that will work (and that is a big "maybe"). However, just initiating an IV with stocked materials is much more difficult than it seems. I'm not worried at all about the legality in this situation (see my former posts). I'm worried about the skills needed to do such an "easy" skill.

A very dehydrated child, to the extent that you are describing, will be almost impossible to initiate an IV in because the peripheral veins will have sunk in an effort to keep the body core hydrated. There will simply not be any veins to stick. Paramedics usually initiate access directly into the tibia bone rather than an IV in a case like this, and this is again a very special skill requiring special equipment.

If you do find an adequate vein to stick, you still have to have a complex skillset to proceed. First. Take a look at a modern IV catheter. Most people cannot even figure out how it works (it has multiple moving parts and a retracting needle that locks permanently after the first attempt), and if they do, they have no idea how to properly place it in a vein. Second, what size of IV do you have? Is it properly sized for the vein? An IV that is just right for a teen or adult is probably way too big to fit in the vein of a dehydrated child. Third, try to stick that catheter in the fragile vein of a 4-year-old child (especially if it is YOUR child) while you yourself are emotionally distraught. Getting this on the first try is extremely hard for seasoned paramedics, much less a layperson who is trying this for the first or third time (or hasn't done it in years since going to that training course). Also, the way IV catheters are made makes them only useable ONCE, then they lock, so you have only *one try *unless you have saved more catheters. The best ending for your scenario above is a child with several holes in his arms and legs from frantic attempts, blown veins, no IV established, and a hysterical mother still trying, in vain, to save her child. THIS is what post-SHTF medical care will be about.

Starting an IV is an incredibly complex skill, though it appears "easy." No layperson is going to be able to do this "easy" skill, especially to a really sick person who really needs it. The solution, as I have said in my previous posts, is to take a course from professionals that will teach you how to do this, such as an EMT Advanced course. You will be taught the proper places to start IVs, how to control infection, proper use of the different sizes of catheters, and other last-ditch options (such as the external jugular vein) to use when nothing else will work. Most importantly, you will do this dozens of times to make it become second nature. If you really want to avoid the scenario you described above with the dying child, then seek out this training NOW so you *will* be able to make a difference in that scenario. You can even take the sort of medical prep course that GoatLady attended, where you will be required to start IVs on other real people (who also get to start them on you..).

Then you might be able to save this child...


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

Truthfully, in your situation jumper13 is correct. You are very likely not going to get the IV in place. But take it a step further. How about a 1 year old? Or a 6 month old. They are far more suscetable to dehydration for many reasons. Would you be willing to access a scalp vein? Would you be willing to stick a needle into your kids head?

Your best bet in the above situation is to take a class for intraosseous infusions. If you do not find a class, don't even buy the needle. Screw this up and you could puncture a lung or heart, or in a kid, shatter their femur.

I am only giving information about what is out their. But I bet it would be like John Travolta in Pulp Fiction if a parent has to stick a needle in their kid to save their life.

Their are ways to rehydrate someone who is lethargic like you are saying. And ways to avoid it (like limit the salt intake) in the first place.


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

Was talking tonight with my mother, who has been an ER nurse for about 30 years, and worked 15 on a volunteer ambulance squad. She remembers from her girl scout days, reading accounts of people surviving after a shipwreck or lost in the woods or some such. There has been great success of giving fluids rectally. The same setup as a NG tube will work in the other end. Should be more reliable as well.

Another benefit is that you do not have to be too concerned about sterility of the water you are using PR because the lower intestines is not as picky about bugs.


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## Arkansas_Ranger (Feb 9, 2009)

JimMadsen said:


> Stay away from nursing programs as they do not usually spend much time on IV's. Ok, everyone fair warning that flaming can be done. A nurse, unless it is for prolonged care, cannot take the place of a properly trained paramedic. A paramedic is a physician extender for the field. A nurse in the ER setting operates under direct supervision of a doctor through protocols. A paramedic has protocols as well, but exercises their own judgement every patient. A paramedic can become an RN by challenging the nursing program tests, take a practical exam (no practical hours) and sit for nursing boards without ever stepping foot in a classroom. A RN cannot become a paramedic without taking a program. Nurses are not taught how to use the equipment a paramedic uses every day. They do however excel far past the average medic in prolonged care and advanced drug therapy (IF they are an ICU trained RN) I have had more than one RN come on a ride with me because of a type of med going and they are told to just sit there and be quiet.


Well, having gone to school for both and having worked as both (NREMT-P and RN/BSN; now in a psych. nurse practitioner program) I can attest to most of this.

Just as an aside, I had to step in, nowhere in the U.S. can a paramedic challenge the NCLEX and become a RN or vice versa. There are, however, much shorter, more efficient ways of doing both without having to take all of it.

The big negative about nursing is that they attempt to indoctrinate you into some ridiculous school of thought and learn no immediately useful skills. A new grad cannot help you in a life threatening circumstance. Fortunately, since I was a paramedic first I resisted this babble.

The big negative about paramedic school is a new grad paramedic doesn't really know a lot about longterm health problems or have the ability to manage them.

Being able to treat a trauma and handle a health emergency is important to prepping. Also important is knowing how to manage longterm health conditions in the event that one does have to survive for extended periods without access to higher care. The caveat is that you need certain kinds of supplies for both situations and sans the equipment most people are probably very well served by taking a medical first responder course of approximately 40 hours in length.

Both together are a very good preparation, and quite frankly that's why I did them, lol. I finished college the first time and taught H.S. biology and worked on the side as a paramedic. I went to paramedic school out of interest and to know what to do in case something happened. I quit teaching, became a police officer and did that for a long time, and somewhere along the way I quit paramedicking. Policing has been a whole lot of fun, a HUGE learning and eye opening experience, and there I picked up many of the tactical elements of prepping. I eventually decided I wanted to learn more and started a two year bachelor's in nursing program (for folks that already had the pre-reqs). I finished nursing school and realized I had no desire to be a RN (because the job mostly sucks), still police on the side albeit I work full-time as a RN, and I hastily started NP school. There we have the path to my medical prepping, and because I don't want to be a hands on provider I chose psych, but I'm used to that from my years policing.


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

Arkansas Ranger, I agree with everything there except for the first part. Excelsior College will do the Medic to RN as well as several others. A few years ago (maybe 2005ish) there was a company called Distance Learning Services of Indiana who worked with Excelsior to do the bridge. When I looked at it (then DSL:I was shut down because they had training centers to help people study not staffed by RN educators, bet 1199 had a hand in that) you had to "test out" of 14 core courses. You got the book and told them when you where ready to take the exam. If you passed the exam, you got credit for the entire course. You then took a clinical exam where you had to do 3 full patient assessments. After that you could sit for the NCLEX. I have no clue if it is still that way now, but I was going to, just didn't have the $14 grand to do it. My last med control liason (not the MD but the medic who really runs things) got his that way. Another medic I know was finishing up when I got out of medicine all together.

You are 1000% correct that a medic is not taught long term care. And I am sure if you where confined to a bed for any length of time, most medics would not think much about bed sores. And RN's are generally not taught the life saving skills such as IV's cardiac stuff or medications. That training comes usually from the hospital and department they go to work at.

It is still funny that my mother (been an RN since I was in grade school) came to me every year at validations time so I could help her re-learn the heart blocks.

Where are you located? Arkansas I assume, but I have known several that have taken your same career path.....

http://www.collegenetwork.com/paramedic/googlefp?src=gpr&gclid=CNC1k4HmwrICFQdN4AodW3wA2A

http://www.publicsafetydegrees.com/paramedic-to-rn.php?gclid=CIj-yKTmwrICFad9Ogod6gEA5Q

I didn't say it was easy to complete or get a job, but it is doable (or it was when i looked at it, may not be as available now)


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## Arkansas_Ranger (Feb 9, 2009)

Jim, I am in Arkansas. I actually worked with a medic who started an ADN (RN) program but dropped out after three weeks because, as she said, "it's stupid bull****." And it is, lol. Many times in class I had to do some tongue biting, but in hindsight you're right. There are things that were presented to me that I had no clue about as a medic, and many of the things that may have been hinted at in a paragraph in our medic texts (PVD, for example) were expounded on in nursing school. I learned more about disease process and pharm which is my fav stuff. I actually learned IVs, assorted injections, airway managment, ECG, and patient assessment in nursing school. Ironically, many of the things expounded on heavily in medic school are skimmed over in nursing school, lol. Oh, and the medic I referred to above... She sat out year, took some Excelsior classes, got licensed in Mississippi, worked there a few months, came back to Arkansas and got her license here. She did take actual online classes and had to go to Dallas or someplace to demonstrate certain skills such as Foleys, but Arkansas and several other states don't recognize that program or similar ones. Did you know Creighton University offeres an accredited pharmacy (PharmD) program? Amazing. It does require on site clinicals. Much of my psych NP master's coursework is being offered through an actual public university here via online and other distance learning mediums. The bad thing is, although I don't need it (and refuse to use it if I had it), I let my NREMT-P lapse in a few yeas ago. I couldn't get to a 48 hour refresher when I needed it so I downgraded back to Arkansas basic.


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