# Trash after SHTF



## SimpleJoys

On a forum I read, somebody posted that his plan for dealing with trash after SHTF is to find a house one of his neighbors moved out of (he would have no way of knowing if they planned to come back) and use the basement for disposing of trash and human waste. I found this appalling for three reasons: ruining someone else's property, ruining a home someone could live in if the owners really never came back, and having trash in the first place. It did get me to thinking, though.

Everyone I've talked to who is using the Humanure Lovable Loo (sawdust and a five gallon bucket) is very happy with it and says there is no almost never any odor, even people who were living in a canvas wall tent with only a tarp dividing the bathroom from the rest of the living space. The bucket is emptied into a dedicated compost pile for human and carnivorous pet waste and the resulting compost used to fertilize fruit trees but not gardens. I figure if we're chopping wood, we're going to have sawdust, even if it's not as nice and soft as what we can buy now. Urine is better stored separately and used--greatly diluted--as a high nitrogen fertilzer.

I can't think of anything I would throw away. If there is no going to the store to buy new containers, it seems logical that old ones would be saved and reused. I've bought some plastic lids to fit over tin cans, and other cans could be used in the shop for storing things. Mylar can liners that couldn't be reused could be cut into strips and hung on deer fencing and on or above fruit to scare off birds. Canning lids that couldn't be reused could have a hole punched in them and be hung in fruit trees to scare off birds (and they now make reuseable lids). Clothes could be cut down for someone smaller, then used for quilts and rags, and when they get past that, for insulation. Buttons, zippers, and snaps could be saved for later use.

Plastic and metal waste that I couldn't find a use for might be useable by someone cleverer than me and could be dumped into bins and saved for later use. Paper can be burnt or composted if it doesn't have any more use in it.

I already try to generate as little trash as possible--I buy what I can in bulk, I buy shampoo bars rather than plastic bottles of liquid shampoo, I use cardboard and newspapers as weed barriers, etc.

Pre-Kindle, I had a lot of books and put the bookshelves on exterior walls for additional insulation. I mostly just have reference books in hard copy now and try to keep bookcases on north walls.

What do you see as trash problems after the SHTF and how will you deal with them?


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## Fn/Form

It really depends on your geographical location. And apartment or suburban dweller is going to have a tough time compared to someone with safe land around them.

What's the situation for your discussion?

Waste is one of the reasons I don't plan on ANY long term bug-in near others.


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## Immolatus

Never thought about it to be honest, but my first response would be natures greatest cleanser.
Fire.


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## Possumfam

Immolatus said:


> Never thought about it to be honest, but my first response would be natures greatest cleanser.
> Fire.


Fire would kinda scare me - you'd have to be very, very careful. Suppose it got out of hand. Yikes!


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## hiwall

I'm going to carry all my trash down across the border and throw it around in Mexico.


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## JayJay

I've bought some plastic lids to fit over tin cans

Simple joys...where?? I started saving my tins last week. I had the intention of making lanterns for every room..I have lots of lantern oil, and only 3 lanterns. But, lids can make tins very useful, no??
I'm not cooking much out of cans, but will soon if we make it to fall and have no fresh produce.


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## missDaniMF

Simple Joys, great thread!
Curious question though, what's the benefit of storing books on a north wall?


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## weedygarden

*Repurpose it*

I think the best way to deal with trash is to repurpose it, as best as possible. I live in a house that is 120 years old and there has not been trash service here all of those years. How do I know? When I dig in the backyard, I find all kinds of buried stuff--bottles, cans, metal, etc. I had several weed trees growing and eventually dug out the roots of around 15 trees. Most of the holes for the trees were around 3 feet deep and I found quite a bit of trash while digging them. Consider burying trash as one option for disposal.

Lots of stuff can be composted. I have a friend with a large garden where he also has a continuous compost trench. When he fills a hole with bio-degradable stuff, he covers it with the dirt from the hole he dug right beside the previous one. He snakes back and forth from one end to the other. What does he bury? Cardboard, old wood, tree trimmings, yard waste, kitchen waste, junk mail, paper. He piles it as high as it will pile, wets it down and in a matter of months, it is relatively broken down.

I grew up with grandparents. Old clothing had the buttons and zippers cut off. Buttons went into the button box and when we lost a button, we looked for a replacement in the button box. Sometimes, old clothing was remade. Zippers were reused. I had more than one dress that was made into a jumper when I got too big for it. At the end of the line, fabric went into a rag bag where it might be reused for a grease rag when work was done on the car. It might be used as a dishrag, or stuffed into a hole to keep the cold out. Fabric could also go into the compost bin.

Paper and paper goods were burned in a stove in the basement. This provided a way of disposing paper (not a shredder) and a little heat, depending upon the quantity. I think people with fireplaces and woodburning stoves often have a paper box where paper gets repurposed to get fires started. Some stuff was burned in a 55 gallon metal can with the lid removed. This is highly restricted in cities now.

Old tires can be used in gardens for growing potatoes. They can be used in other ways in landscaping.


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## weedygarden

*Insulation!*



missDaniMF said:


> Simple Joys, great thread!
> Curious question though, what's the benefit of storing books on a north wall?


In some houses, the north end is always cooler in the winter. I have met people who told me they keep books on exterior walls for additional insulation.


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## BillS

You could haul your garbage bags at least a hundred yards away from your home if you live in town. A vacant lot would be a nice neutral site. Or you could burn it if you live in the middle of nowhere. Even there I wouldn't like the idea of having a fire and giving off smoke to be seen for miles.

At a minimum you're going to have uneaten food that has to be thrown away. You can't keep that in a garbage can in your house for very long or you'll get a bad smell.


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## Jimmy24

Some good points made here.

I have a fire pit now for burning. All un-eaten food, except meat, goes in The compost pile. Even paper can go in a compost pile if shredded somewhat. Any metal would be re-used somehow. Aluminum can be easily melted and made into ingots of some simple design. 

Trying to reuse as much as possible seems the way to go, in a real TEOTWAWKI. Good chance there wouldn't be new "stuff" being made. And at some point, a few years after it goes down, will there be anything left to be trash?

Jimmy


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## The_Blob

weedygarden said:


> In some houses, the north end is always cooler in the winter. I have met people who told me they keep books on exterior walls for additional insulation.


This is true for the northern hemisphere (where most land/population is), the same would apply to the southern wall for the southern hemispere...

The Earth is tilted away in the winter & towards in the summer, hence the season reversal between the hemispheres.

And the toilet flushing is backwards 'down under' too.


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## mojo4

I highly doubt there will be lots of trash after SHTF. Most trash is just the packaging but without lots of commerce there will be no packaging. All food will feed my dog and leftovers (highly doubtful with my mutt) will go to chickens or compost. Everything else will be recycled for other uses and if there is anything left that can't be reused or composted gets burned.


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## Woody

I agree that there will be almost nothing that is trash. If you keep track of what you throw into the trash now most of it is packaging and most of that is Styrofoam or cardboard. I have been buying smart for years now and generate very little actual garbage. I am single and generate a small bag of what I call trash every two months. Most of what I generate is recyclable garbage and goes to feed the yard. When TSHTF nothing will be tossed away, it will all have a second life as something else.

Food scraps are compost or animal food.
Paper is compost, weed control or fire starting material.
Metal cans for storage of stuff, drinking vessels or as pointed out earlier, critter chasers.
Human waste will be compost eventually.
Clothing was covered really well by Weedygarden
Styrofoam can be crunched up and used for insulation or to add tilth to potting soil.
Cellophane packaging .. none because there are no stores to produce it. What little we might have around will be burned or made into covers for starting seeds.
Plastic things and packaging. These might be the only thing that will have no use after it outlives it original purpose or breaks. Along with Styrofoam it is a majority of the trash I generate. No matter how hard you try there is no getting around buying something with plastic in the packaging somewhere. Even though it puts out noxious smoke it does burn. Perhaps fill a tin can with it and put it in the woodstove for heat.

What did I leave out?


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## SimpleJoys

You can get plastic lids for tin cans in the pet food aisle of most grocery stores and in pet stores. I don't buy a lot of canned food from the store, but as I work to stock up, I find myself looking at things differently--if I couldn't buy anything else, what could I use instead?


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## BillS

I'm going to have a lot of garbage. I live in town. I don't farm. I'm certainly not going to have a composting toilet. I can't believe that there won't be an overpowering stench from human waste. I have hundreds if not thousands of cans of food. I already have enough cups and glasses. Water will be limited. The last thing I'm doing is washing out used food cans. I expect to produce even more garbage six month from now than today. We have a grandchild on the way and we'll be throwing away tons of disposable diapers.

I think the best place to dump garbage is due east of your house at least 100 yards away. You seldom get wind from the east so you shouldn't be bothered by the smell as much.


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## Emerald

BillS said:


> I'm going to have a lot of garbage. I live in town. I don't farm. I'm certainly not going to have a composting toilet. I can't believe that there won't be an overpowering stench from human waste. I have hundreds if not thousands of cans of food. I already have enough cups and glasses. Water will be limited. The last thing I'm doing is washing out used food cans. I expect to produce even more garbage six month from now than today. We have a grandchild on the way and we'll be throwing away tons of disposable diapers.
> 
> I think the best place to dump garbage is due east of your house at least 100 yards away. You seldom get wind from the east so you shouldn't be bothered by the smell as much.


Yup.. but your neighbors will love ya!!:lolsmash::lolsmash:


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## bigpaul

BillS said:


> You could haul your garbage bags at least a hundred yards away from your home if you live in town. A vacant lot would be a nice neutral site. Or you could burn it if you live in the middle of nowhere. Even there I wouldn't like the idea of having a fire and giving off smoke to be seen for miles.
> 
> At a minimum you're going to have uneaten food that has to be thrown away. You can't keep that in a garbage can in your house for very long or you'll get a bad smell.


i find it very strange that someone post SHTF will have food that has to be thrown away, any scrap of food will be wanted, if i have scraps left over they will be fed to the dog. :gaah:


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## BillS

Emerald said:


> Yup.. but your neighbors will love ya!!:lolsmash::lolsmash:


Most of my neighbors will be starving to death. There will be people who will be very happy to accept my garbage. And if I don't throw it somewhere, what am I supposed to do with it? There obviously won't be garbage pick up. I COULD go throw it in a nearby stream but that isn't good either.

So what is your ideal solution?


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## prairie

BillS said:


> I'm going to have a lot of garbage. I live in town. I don't farm. I'm certainly not going to have a composting toilet. I can't believe that there won't be an overpowering stench from human waste. I have hundreds if not thousands of cans of food. I already have enough cups and glasses. Water will be limited. The last thing I'm doing is washing out used food cans. I expect to produce even more garbage six month from now than today. We have a grandchild on the way and we'll be throwing away tons of disposable diapers.
> 
> I think the best place to dump garbage is due east of your house at least 100 yards away. You seldom get wind from the east so you shouldn't be bothered by the smell as much.


Yeah, I can't imagine reusing all the cans of food I have either. We live in a small community that even now allows "burn days". I'll burn what is burnable that I can't reuse in a metal barrel like we did growing up. I figure if it's a shtf scenario it won't matter who sees the smoke since I imagine we'll barricade off our town for security purposes and everyone else will burn too.

Metal cans will get crushed down and after accumulation buried (we're backed up to big empty field)


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## PrepN4Good

I would think that anything even remotely food related (empty cans, wrappers, etc) would have to be either burned or buried...left to rot on the ground will attract all kinds of unwanted critters (ask me how I know).


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## The_Blob

BillS said:


> We have a grandchild on the way and we'll be throwing away tons of disposable diapers.


The fact that you're planning on using disposables, especially post :shtf: pretty much... blows... my mind. ... :gaah:


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## lilmama

I've thought about it some. For human waste it will most likely be a dig a hole and bury type of thing. Anything burnable will be burned in a burn barrel and compost material will be in the compost pile. Anything that doesn't fit in with the rest will likely be buried at the back of the property if it can't be reused.


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## weedygarden

*Take care of your trash, don't give it to others!*

Even if someone has an abandoned house, or you know where there is a vacant lot, don't just put your trash there. With a vacant lot, at some time in the future you might want to consider a garden there. You could bury your trash there, but don't just throw your trash there. Throwing your trash around might eventually draw attention to yourself. It may take time, but sooner or later, someone will be making the rounds checking for signs of life. Disturbed soil would be better than trash.

And toilet waste, bury it. Dig a big, deep hole, cover it to keep people safe, empty your porta-potty in, add a shovelful or two of dirt each time to cover the waste.

My grandparents never had running water on their ranch but they had an outhouse, also known as the Jones house. It was a good distance from the house. If you don't think there will be a bothersome smell, you have obviously never used an outhouse or used one regularly. Due to the potential of blizzards and rattlesnakes, there was a "chamber pot" with a lid that was used when going out at night was not the best idea. I never wanted to visit the Joneses in the dark. The pot was emptied in the outhouse regularly. I understand that lime will help waste breakdown more quickly and help with the smell.

Lime might be a good addition to our preps.


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## alwaysready

BillS said:


> I'm going to have a lot of garbage. I live in town. I don't farm. I'm certainly not going to have a composting toilet. I can't believe that there won't be an overpowering stench from human waste. I have hundreds if not thousands of cans of food. I already have enough cups and glasses. Water will be limited. The last thing I'm doing is washing out used food cans. I expect to produce even more garbage six month from now than today. We have a grandchild on the way and we'll be throwing away tons of disposable diapers.
> 
> I think the best place to dump garbage is due east of your house at least 100 yards away. You seldom get wind from the east so you shouldn't be bothered by the smell as much.


Cloth diapers would be best they are reusable and this will probably not be your only grandchild.


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## Emerald

Our hunting cabin growing up was sans indoor plumbing. it was a nice hunk of land that was owned by a friend of the family(he sold to my family and another good friend of theirs) and all three of the lots had a communal area for the outhouses.. they were all lined up in a row. cuz ya know we all couldn't share.. but smell.. OMGOODNESS.. and you didn't want the wind to change direction there. Lime over everything did not help with the smell.  Dirt over everything did not help with the smell.. only thing that helped was putting a black chimney on the box that was the seat and it stuck up out of the top.. painted black when the sun was shining it drew a nice draft and did keep some of the smell down.


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## kappydell

just because i live in a town does not mean i will turn feral and be leaving my 'leavings' all over the place. and just because it is an 'emergency' does not mean all civilized rules of behavior are out the window. my neighbors and i would run anybody off who did such things. (please tell me you are kidding or trying to get a rise out of me). First of all, a sawdust toilet a la humanure does work and works as well in the town as in the toolies. Indoors, too. A little smell never killed anyone. Feces will not be as copious when everyone is eating less. Composting organic trash works in towns too, and will benefit the gardens. Burning burnables will naturally occur with using fires to heat water and food. Food going uneaten? poor planning, and not too likely. even meat 'wastes' (bones, etc) are useful as critter food, even chickens eat meat scraps, then boil those bones down and grind them for fertilyzer or calcium supplements, take your choice. disposable diapers? you must be kidding. use cloth ones or are you too delicate to handle a little baby poop?
tin cans? a great barter item, son, and the local shade tree metal worker will probably appreciate all you will give him so he has some metals to work with to repair stuff. such inconsideration as i saw mentioned by some would be cause for the practitioner to be run off at least, and whether unscathed or not, well, it would depend on who he had ticked off....use your head, people.


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## bigpaul

human waste can be composted and used at a later date.


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## UncleJoe

http://humanurehandbook.com/

http://www.amazon.com/The-Humanure-...sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=The+Humanure+Handbook


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## db2469

bigpaul said:


> human waste can be composted and used at a later date.


I'm new to composting...how does one do that in a cellar where I might be forced to live for an extended period if too dangerous to go outside?
DB


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## BillS

The_Blob said:


> The fact that you're planning on using disposables, especially post :shtf: pretty much... blows... my mind. ... :gaah:


We don't have access to water here. We have 1500 gallons in our basement.


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## TopTop

I understand the public sewer systems will shut down but most private septic systems work just fine without electric. Modern toilets are rated at 1.6 gallons/flush but in reality you can keep things moving south with about 3 pints if it's a short straight downhill run to the tank plus you can use any liquid. Water dipped from a mud puddle, contaminated creek, whatever. Two of my bathrooms will work fine, the others flush into small tanks & then you need electric to pump them into the main tank. The septic system actually works better with less water going in. Maybe some of your preps should include preparing an emergency septic tank. Of course the health department won't sanction it so you will need to do it on the QT. You can tell your neighbors the tanks are for your rain gutters/downspouts, that is usually allowed by code. An easy project IF you have good drainage, a little more difficult if you live on clay soil. You will need a diverter valve or someway of blocking the public sewage line to prevent raw sewage from backing into your house and divert your toilet to the emergency system. The temp tank can be as simple as a couple 55 gallon plastic drums, with inlet, outlet & vent pipes installed. In fact I have seen many older houses with that as the main system. The cost would be minimal, although a weekend rental of a mini excavator would be well worth it.


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## weedygarden

*Do you have gutters?*



BillS said:


> We don't have access to water here. We have 1500 gallons in our basement.


If you have gutters, you can rig up a collection system at the base of each one. A blue barrel holds 55 gallons. Four downspouts= 220 gallons. Connect an additional barrel beside each and 440 gallons. A good rain storm can fill those barrels quickly.

I have good drinking water stored, and then I have every jug I have gotten in the last few years that is filled with water for various purposes. I know milk jugs don't last for years, but my thought is if I fill them with water and keep them until they develop leaks, I will possibly have more water for various purposes than not. I have not counted them lately, but I have lots of these various jugs--milk mostly, 2 liter soda bottles, juice, vinegar, bleach, liquid laundry detergent. This water is definitely not for drinking but for washing and watering. I try to do a really good job to remove residues and then to add a few drops of bleach as well to keep it clean as well.

I believe that lack of good drinking water could take out many people quickly. Humans are supposed to not be able to live much past 3 days without water.

My daughter had cloth diapers. A 5 gallon bucket for a diaper bucket with some water, a small box of non-chlorine bleach, rinsed out diapers, and diapers stay white. They need to be washed and rinsed after that, but washing diapers is really not that big of a deal. Supposedly it helps children to toilet train easier as they can feel the wetness, unlike most disposable diapers.


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## mosquitomountainman

TopTop said:


> I understand the public sewer systems will shut down but most private septic systems work just fine without electric. ...


It would be best to check on this. In a neighboring county they now require pressurized drainfields. Those must have elecrticity to run the pumps.


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## mosquitomountainman

db2469 said:


> I'm new to composting...how does one do that in a cellar where I might be forced to live for an extended period if too dangerous to go outside?
> DB


The Humanure Handbook has lots of good ideas. If you don't want to buy the book there are websites that cover the same subject.

A "sawdust" toilet (actually dirt or other organic materials will also work) is basically a 5 gallon bucket you do your thing in then cover it up with saw dust. (Repeat each time you use it until the bucket is full.) When the bucket is full (you'll know when!) you have some options. First, dump the contents into a dedicated composting pile to be used (once the composting process is finished) on fruit trees, ornamental plants, etc. It isn't recommended for vegetable gardens but in other cultures they use it there too. You're going to want to fence off the compost pile to keep critters - mainly dogs - out of it. Second: When the bucket's full, cover it with a tight fitting lid and set it aside for a few weeks to finish composting. For this method you'll need several buckets because you'll need to begin a new one before the previous bucket has completed it's composting process. Buckets can be stacked to save space. Number them so you'll know the order to reuse them in. You'll still need to dump the bucket once the composting is complete.

You can also build an outhouse type arrangement for a composting toilet. I saw one once that had two concrete chambers. They blocked off one side and used the other until it was full then blocked it off and opened the second side. When it was full the first side had finished composteing and was shoveled out and they began using it again. The chambers were above ground and had doors at the back to enable emptying them out.

You can also purchase commercial models. They do not need sawdust to work but be careful in choosing one. Some models need electricity to function. There are stand-alone types for ground level floors and also models where the storage bin is in the basement and the "pot" is on the floor above. The main advantage to these is that the storage chamber can be much larger.

When done properly composting toilets have very little smell. The contents after composting smell just as any good compost should.


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## weedygarden

*Anyone consider a porta potty?*

One time I had a tour of someones very large garage (could hold a dozen or more cars). He had a pre-packaged food storage for Y2k and a porta-potti. I had never considered that as a prep, and you would want chemicals. Also, don't they have a special vacuum to maintain them?


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## weedygarden

*We will see people's true colors*



kappydell said:


> just because i live in a town does not mean i will turn feral and be leaving my 'leavings' all over the place. and just because it is an 'emergency' does not mean all civilized rules of behavior are out the window. my neighbors and i would run anybody off who did such things.
> 
> . such inconsideration as i saw mentioned by some would be cause for the practitioner to be run off at least, and whether unscathed or not, well, it would depend on who he had ticked off....use your head, people.


I was thinking of this. I already try to keep certain weeds, trash and etc down in my neighborhood that others just don't see. I don't think we will want to trash up our surroundings.

There will be people who will feel they can trash up someone elses property because they can. This has occurred all over America for years and I have met people who have told me that they used to bag up their trash, drive in the country and throw it into a ditch somewhere. More than one of these "humans" has been called to come and retrieve it, or cited and fined.

But, we will see people's true colors in these situations. People (ants) will open their doors over and over and feed the grasshoppers, perhaps to their own eventual demise. People will be trigger happy and feel justified to take someone else out for a bottle of water or at the smell of baking bread because they don't have what you do and they want it.

The thing I love about this forum is that we get to read about how other people think about situations. Some of us have great integrity. (Important word, integrity!) We can help some understand the error of their thinking and some with get it while some will carry on with their own way of doing things, no matter the rest of the world. We know there are great people out there and we know what we will be up against that is not so good.


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## The_Blob

BillS said:


> We don't have access to water here. We have 1500 gallons in our basement.


There's always 'grey water' for washing... I assume you collect rainwater in a cistern for that 1500 gallons and filter it

Your area has an avergae converted precipitation (rain & snow) of 41 inches per annum, an average 20x24 2 car garage has 600 sq ft roof

for 15600 gallons, no recovery system is perfect so let's assume you only access half of that, it's still significant but not near what (most) modern Americans are used to

:scratch I've been to Oshkosh... never to Appleton










I think disposable diapers would be a good fall-back prep for a baby, but not for every day first line of (poop) defense use


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## bigpaul

weedygarden said:


> I was thinking of this. I already try to keep certain weeds, trash and etc down in my neighborhood that others just don't see. I don't think we will want to trash up our surroundings.
> 
> There will be people who will feel they can trash up someone elses property because they can. This has occurred all over America for years and I have met people who have told me that they used to bag up their trash, drive in the country and throw it into a ditch somewhere. More than one of these "humans" has been called to come and retrieve it, or cited and fined.
> 
> But, we will see people's true colors in these situations. People (ants) will open their doors over and over and feed the grasshoppers, perhaps to their own eventual demise. People will be trigger happy and feel justified to take someone else out for a bottle of water or at the smell of baking bread because they don't have what you do and they want it.
> 
> The thing I love about this forum is that we get to read about how other people think about situations. Some of us have great integrity. (Important word, integrity!) We can help some understand the error of their thinking and some with get it while some will carry on with their own way of doing things, no matter the rest of the world. We know there are great people out there and we know what we will be up against that is not so good.


unfortunately, integrity will probably get you killed.


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## The_Blob

bigpaul said:


> unfortunately, integrity will probably get you killed.


I disagree, integrity will enhance your reputation, and make others more apt to deal peacefully with you.

Except for those whose singular misanthropic idea is what's mine is mine and what's yours will be mine once you let your guard down, and hopefully their greed will get them killed early.


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## TopTop

mosquitomountainman said:


> It would be best to check on this. In a neighboring county they now require pressurized drainfields. Those must have elecrticity to run the pumps.


Yes, that's why I said MOST areas. The pressurized systems I have seen are sand mounds, required because of high water table & over building. That said, if there is no electricity there will be very little pressure on septic systems so everyone's system will work better. Obviously you still need something that will gravity drain. A viable alternative for a long term emergency would be a second tank for the "drain field" and a 12 volt or even manual macerator pump hooked to a long garden hose to empty it when needed. Just seems like a safer alternative than storing buckets of crap & sawdust.



weedygarden said:


> One time I had a tour --- and a porta-potti. I had never considered that as a prep, and you would want chemicals. Also, don't they have a special vacuum to maintain them?


I have two porta-pots that I set up for large cook outs, crab feasts & such. It keeps some traffic out of the house & takes the strain off my well & septic system. But really they are nothing more than a better version of the bucket & lid. They must be pumped & cleaned every week to keep them usable. I don't use the chemicals, they are bad for your septic system. I keep them locked unless I'm having a lot of people for an outside event. I use a macerator pump to empty them into my septic tank after a day of use. Then about five minutes with a garden hose, long handle brush, some soap & bleach and they clean up & smell good again. The bleach keeps them smelling good for a day or two of use. I know, the bleach isn't great for my septic either but you have to do something. I have been thinking of adding dump valves like an RV tank to eliminate pumping. Just open the valve & it would dump into the underground tank. You would still need to add some water to make sure the line doesn't plug.


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## bigpaul

The_Blob said:


> I disagree, integrity will enhance your reputation, and make others more apt to deal peacefully with you.
> 
> Except for those whose singular misanthropic idea is what's mine is mine and what's yours will be mine once you let your guard down, and hopefully their greed will get them killed early.


after SHTF it will be kill or be killed, if you dont fire first they will A. take your food and you will then starve and/or B. if you dont kill them they will kill you...either way your dead! you gotta be like the old west: shoot first and ask questions later.:nuts:


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## machinist

Post-consumerism, I doubt if anyone will be manufacturing a lot of new packaging that becomes trash, and good riddance to that. I think the worst disposal problem will be all the junk electronics and plastic garbage that infests our society at present. Thermoplastics could be melted and injection molded with a simple setup for something useful. I've done some of that using milk jugs and small plastic bottles making small round slugs to use for simple bearings. 

Our answer for human waste is the same as it has always been, a septic tank. If for some reason I'm away from home, I'll dig a cat hole, but then we live in a very rural area where that will work fine. 

We compost everything we can, so there isn't a lot left of biodegradables. Some cardboard, paper, wood scraps, tree trimmings, and such go in the woodstove, but no plastic due to the nasty fumes. 

Metals are sorted by type: aluminum, lead and its' alloys, copper, brass and other copper alloys all can be recast in my blacksmith's forge into something useful. Ferrous metals are reused as much as possible, leaving almost none to be concerned with, but what is left is presently sold for scrap. 

Later on, the steel items could be saved for recasting when it is worthwhile to build a cupola. There might be a good business opportunity some day, melting down junk cars to make horse drawn farm equipment and wood cooking ranges.


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## mosquitomountainman

bigpaul said:


> unfortunately, integrity will probably get you killed.


So your survival is assured if you're a selfish, greedy, scum bag with no morals? Not hardly! I'll be putting those types at the top of the list for "cleansing" and I have a feeling that I won't be the only one doing so.


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## BillS

weedygarden said:


> Even if someone has an abandoned house, or you know where there is a vacant lot, don't just put your trash there. With a vacant lot, at some time in the future you might want to consider a garden there. You could bury your trash there, but don't just throw your trash there. Throwing your trash around might eventually draw attention to yourself. It may take time, but sooner or later, someone will be making the rounds checking for signs of life. Disturbed soil would be better than trash.
> 
> And toilet waste, bury it. Dig a big, deep hole, cover it to keep people safe, empty your porta-potty in, add a shovelful or two of dirt each time to cover the waste.
> 
> My grandparents never had running water on their ranch but they had an outhouse, also known as the Jones house. It was a good distance from the house. If you don't think there will be a bothersome smell, you have obviously never used an outhouse or used one regularly. Due to the potential of blizzards and rattlesnakes, there was a "chamber pot" with a lid that was used when going out at night was not the best idea. I never wanted to visit the Joneses in the dark. The pot was emptied in the outhouse regularly. I understand that lime will help waste breakdown more quickly and help with the smell.
> 
> Lime might be a good addition to our preps.


I live in town. It's going to be dangerous to even be outside after it hits the fan. I'm not spending one more minute outside than is absolutely necessary. There's no way I'm digging some hole to throw my garbage in. Certainly not in the first 90 days. If it hits the fan in the fall then maybe in the spring I'll worry about proper sewage and trash disposal. The main thing I'm concerning myself with at first is just staying alive and avoiding as many people as possible.

Even then, not everybody with stored food has at least a one-year supply. You could have people looking to kill you for your food at any time. You could have neighbors that prepared that are now running out of food and they could suddenly become dangerous to you. You're not going to know who you can trust until things get back to normal. Whatever the new normal is.


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## DKRinAK

*Whole lotta what-ifs*

Why not take a look at what is's (if that's a word)

Dumping on a neighborhood lot?








Ya, that's Iraq - Civilized for a while, then the war stated - and no services...



















Naples It. Mob runs the trash business - landfills are full, so... So gross.

Can't happen here?









Toronto Canada. Did happen.










New York, happens too often.

So.

Dumping garbage like this will

Feed the rats.
Feed the dogs. These will run in feral packs, both will make life dangerous and short.

Burn what you can, at least it won't feed the critters and smell (well, not too badly. Find out now where your local authority has designated for trash - stockpiling if nothing else.

Finally, if you live in a big city, take the time to plan how and where you will flee to when that 'city' becomes unlivable....

I didn't run any photos of the open sewers so common in the third world, you've all seen the images...


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## machinist

One more reason not to live in a city, IMHO.


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## Padre

*No trash post SHTF*



SimpleJoys said:


> I found this appalling for three reasons... (3) having trash in the first place.


I just took a group of kids hiking and was appalled to find trash on the trail!

I am with you, trash is a modern invention, created by a disposable society! What trash will you have when your containers are the only ones you are likely to find in the near future and they are needed for reuse? Or when every thing you use is likely to be the last one you see for a while. The only trash you are going to produce are durable goods that break down and can't be repaired, but will be kept for parts or used for building materials, and bio-degradable waste, which will be used for fertilizers. I have spent some time in refugee camps and let me tell you when you don't have much, everything is valuable!


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## Marcus

bigpaul said:


> i find it very strange that someone post SHTF will have food that has to be thrown away, any scrap of food will be wanted, if i have scraps left over they will be fed to the dog. :gaah:


Wild critters have to eat too especially if they are tasty and can lured to a certain area on a regular basis.


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## Emerald

Padre said:


> I just took a group of kids hiking and was appalled to find trash on the trail!
> 
> I am with you, trash is a modern invention, created by a disposable society! What trash will you have when your containers are the only ones you are likely to find in the near future and they are needed for reuse? Or when every thing you use is likely to be the last one you see for a while. The only trash you are going to produce are durable goods that break down and can't be repaired, but will be kept for parts or used for building materials, and bio-degradable waste, which will be used for fertilizers. I have spent some time in refugee camps and let me tell you when you don't have much, everything is valuable!


Due to knee surgery I am not up to hiking the wilder trails that I used to go on but at the park that hubs and I always walk at here closer to town(it is 50 some acres of wild along a river that was converted to park) we were appalled at the trash that was thrown everywhere.. our local high school holds track meets there for certain events.. and the local MUSH teams also hold events there to run the dogs.. they leave behind so much garbage even with the barrels they put out. 
hubs and I often take our grocery bags or even bigger trash bags a couple times a year and pick up and pick up.. but when a local mountain bike club got permission to go thru and make trails off the main trails we got a chance to go thru and walk different paths (they asked people to walk them and help pack them down)and found that people have been dumping trash in the woods for years.. I have several of the old milk/cream bottles and other types of glass bottles that are quite old.. along with tons of metal cans and other big trash like car parts and even an old farm disc.
I can't say that dumping trash/littering is a new symptom of the human race. If we were not dumpers then archeologists wouldn't have anything to dig for. Most of the trash now just doesn't degrade as quickly as some of our ancestors trash did..


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## bigpaul

mosquitomountainman said:


> So your survival is assured if you're a selfish, greedy, scum bag with no morals? Not hardly! I'll be putting those types at the top of the list for "cleansing" and I have a feeling that I won't be the only one doing so.


i'm not saying that, but if you start feeding the needy 1. you'll soon run out of food yourself, starve and die. 2. feed someone, they'll come back with more people and eat all your food, same result. you need to realise that your family comes first and not some stranger/neighbour who hasnt bothered to prep and expects to be fed from your stores. send them away and they will come back with others, maybe as a mob, what you gonna do then?? shoot them first, then they cant come back to rob you.


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## mosquitomountainman

bigpaul said:


> i'm not saying that, but if you start feeding the needy 1. you'll soon run out of food yourself, starve and die. 2. feed someone, they'll come back with more people and eat all your food, same result. you need to realise that your family comes first and not some stranger/neighbour who hasnt bothered to prep and expects to be fed from your stores. send them away and they will come back with others, maybe as a mob, what you gonna do then?? shoot them first, then they cant come back to rob you.


During the Depression people did not lose thier humanity and become a bunch of animals killing and being killed. It's unfortunate that our society has devolved to the level of isolation and selfishness depicted by so many.

How we treat people tells us a lot about ourselves. Hopefully we can maintain a balance between some brainless twit and Scrooge. We have plans in place to help the needy. Some of those plans involve helping them take care of themselves. We are not going to put our own family in danger but we're not going to become selfish, cold-hearted Scrooges either.

TS hitting TF can come in a lot of different degrees. Eventually it will end or stabilize and you're going to be living near those people you turned away. Think about what it's going to be like to see that family whose child starved while you were fat and well-fed in the security of your bunker. Think about what they'll see when they look at you. Don't throw out your humanity. It's the only thing that sets us apart from the animals.

The bad guys will find you whether you care for anyone except yourself or not. Don't throw your humanity out the window for a sense of false security.


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## ContinualHarvest

The_Blob said:


> I disagree, integrity will enhance your reputation, and make others more apt to deal peacefully with you.
> 
> Except for those whose singular misanthropic idea is what's mine is mine and what's yours will be mine once you let your guard down, and hopefully their greed will get them killed early.


Integrity and a big gun.


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## bigpaul

if the S REALLY does HTF it wont be over in 5 minutes all back to normal again, if its TEOTWAWKI which is what i am talking about, it will be every man for himself and if you dont look after yourself no one else will and you will not survive. do what you want, no one is having my supplies and if they die-cos they havent prepared for themselves- then thats their look out! i intend to survive come what may and to hell with the neighbours. i thought an American site would realise this.


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## BillS

mosquitomountainman said:


> During the Depression people did not lose thier humanity and become a bunch of animals killing and being killed. It's unfortunate that our society has devolved to the level of isolation and selfishness depicted by so many.
> 
> How we treat people tells us a lot about ourselves. Hopefully we can maintain a balance between some brainless twit and Scrooge. We have plans in place to help the needy. Some of those plans involve helping them take care of themselves. We are not going to put our own family in danger but we're not going to become selfish, cold-hearted Scrooges either.
> 
> TS hitting TF can come in a lot of different degrees. Eventually it will end or stabilize and you're going to be living near those people you turned away. Think about what it's going to be like to see that family whose child starved while you were fat and well-fed in the security of your bunker. Think about what they'll see when they look at you. Don't throw out your humanity. It's the only thing that sets us apart from the animals.
> 
> The bad guys will find you whether you care for anyone except yourself or not. Don't throw your humanity out the window for a sense of false security.


I won't be seeing anybody that I didn't give food to. Or their families. The unprepared will all starve to death. Or commit suicide. Or die from disease. Or die from violence during the complete anarchy we'll see after the collapse.

The unprepared will die. I can't change that. Giving them a meal only delays the inevitable. And lets people know we have food.

It's not that I don't care. I don't want anyone to suffer. But I can't feed everybody. Just the people we're preparing for now.


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## mosquitomountainman

A lot is going to depend on what happens. A person can define terms like "TSHTF" in a lot of different ways. I'd only expect total anarchy or destruction in extreme situations. The people we see will most likely be different than for those near large cities too. One plan does not fit all but if a person can help others without putting themselves at undue risk why shouldn't they? 

My wife and I have never been considered "rich" (or even "well-off") but we have helped others despite all the reasons we could give for not doing so. I guess what it boils down to is being the kind of person you want your neighbor to be. 

Cheers

Steve


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## db2469

BillS said:


> I won't be seeing anybody that I didn't give food to. Or their families. The unprepared will all starve to death. Or commit suicide. Or die from disease. Or die from violence during the complete anarchy we'll see after the collapse.
> 
> The unprepared will die. I can't change that. Giving them a meal only delays the inevitable. And lets people know we have food.
> 
> It's not that I don't care. I don't want anyone to suffer. But I can't feed everybody. Just the people we're preparing for now.


BillS...we all know by now that you're convinced that when the dollar "collapses" and is unfit to spend, all society will break down and many of us think that is probable as well because many people won't just stay in their homes and quietly starve to death, they will do whatever it takes to keep them and their families alive...everyone who is not prepared and even some of those partially prepared will be a threat to our existence. If we open our doors whenever someone knocks, we'll be killed by somebody sometime...if the crisis turns out to be much more benign than the "Mad Max" scenario, cooperation with others will prove to be the "right" thing to do, imo...
DB


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## weedygarden

*Keeping your trash hidden is OPSEC*

For the people out there, searching for food or signs of life, regular dumping of food containers will get someone's attention, sooner or later. When you go out to leave another load, they could be laying in wait.


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## weedygarden

*This thread is on my mind!*

I am trying to think of what to do with trash if you are trying to not be outside for long, don't have a place to stash it, and all the possibilities. One thing about it is that everyone's situation is different.

Trash will attract vermin of one sort or another. No one wants that. Oh wait, you could eat mice and rats  Call it protein! If you don't have enough canned tuna, chicken, salmon, spam, and sardines in your storage, that could help extend your stores! 

If you want to stash it for an interim, you could have a shed just for that purpose. Open the door, heave in your bag, and it is gone. Of course, if it snowed or rained, people could see your tracks and follow you.

If you have canned goods, both ends of the can can be removed and the can flattened to reduce the space it takes up. Large cans can be repurposed.

Trash will probably be a challenge for most of us.


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## weedygarden

*Great article*

This article is fairly timely to this discussion.
http://www.survivalblog.com/2012/07/some-experiences-with-handling-trash-by-belle.html


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## Emerald

weedygarden said:


> This article is fairly timely to this discussion.
> http://www.survivalblog.com/2012/07/some-experiences-with-handling-trash-by-belle.html


very nice blog.. thanks for the link.
There were a few things that she could have done other than just pile it to be burned later.
They do have water they could have taken the napkins/paper plates/other paper items and shred them/cut them and water and layer with some veggie scraps and other things and compost them.. I have added shredded newspaper to my compost and in a year of turning and adding stuff you can't see the paper any longer.


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## LongRider

Once a year I take a car load of trash to the dump. The rest is recycled or composted. Post SHTF we would not be using most of what goes to the dump. Once every six years our septic gets emptied. We are looking at a more efficient system that is supposed to get rid of all the waste and make it safe for the environment. Worst case scenario we live on a 900 foot bluff during the rainy season we would empty out tanks over the bluff.


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## LincTex

weedygarden said:


> If you have canned goods, both ends of the can can be removed and the can flattened to reduce the space it takes up. Large cans can be repurposed.


My Grandfather was the master re-user of old cans. He would start seeds in them. He would weld them together to make stove pipe, etc. In the depression he was poor and learned to waste very, very little.


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## Kaytee

prairie said:


> Yeah, I can't imagine reusing all the cans of food I have either.


Cut off both ends of the can, cut resulting calendar and flatten into a rectangle. You now have a metal "shingle" or piece of siding or base for a small fire/campstove (may need a few cans for this).

With just one end cut opened-- rinse out, use a "churchkey" type can opener to punch holes into the sides of the can at the other end for plant pots. Or... open the other end, set on a piece of cardboard/flattened can, use as a starter plant pot, and when roots start showing at the bottom, plant the whole can-- it will protect the main roots from pests like gophers, moles. If your problem is more with things that chew stems-- fill only ~ half way with dirt before planting, and bury only to the fill line.

With one end opened-- punch holes all around the sides; put a votive light candle in it for a fairly safe "lantern". A couple of holes near the top and a bit of wire can make it a hanging lantern.

PS: you can do any of these things now:flower:-- you don't have to wait for a disaster! One of my sons did a "recycle garden" as a school project back when he was in 2d grade-- he did the "can" thing with school milk cartons for starting pots, crumpled Styrofoam "clam shell" and cup bits mixed with playground sand (we bought that) and compost from home for the "soil", and beans from a dry bean package for the plants. He also had an avocado seed in a can of water, carrot tops in a jar lid of water, and "saved" tomato seeds on a paper towel strip as part of his "display". He got a "first place" ribbon.


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## ldmaster

I must agree with Weedy... Repurposing, reusing, directly recycle anything you might have formerly thrown away. Paper and paper products are always useable for purposes of heat/fire. Plastic is always reusable as food wrappings. 

As for human waste, digging and using privy's is the best way to deal with it. The boy scout manual used to talk about doing it, Army field manuals talk about it. If TSHTF prepackaged items will not exist, we wont be throwing away stuff that we now do, because someone will find a need for it - like spare parts. 

We should purchase items that seem to fit into the category of having packaging with a dual purpose. Like buying peaches in a jar instead of a tin. things like plastic lids that let us reuse cans. Glass containers are worth a lot more as water containers, same for aluminum cans. 

in North Korea they can't afford industrial fertilizer, so all North Korean citizens recycle their own waste for the fields. ALL citizens. At some point, we will need to do the same with ours because ammonium nitrate just wont be available.


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## weedygarden

*Make a bicycle out of cardboard*

I heard this on the radio yesterday and thought I'd check it out on the internet.

[URL=http://player.vimeo.com/video/37584656]http://player.vimeo.com/video/37584656

And then you could have a BOV!


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## LincTex

weedygarden said:


> I heard this on the radio yesterday and thought I'd check it out on the internet.


That is a non-working link.


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