# What if supplies run out?



## Canadian

We all live in areas that could face unique types of disasters. Some of you may be preparing for a flood, ice storm, forest fire, earthquake, volcano, tropical storm, tornado, food shortage, riots or any other type of disaster.

We all hope that our supplies will last until the disaster is over and things get back more or less to the way they were. What if things didn't go to plan and you actually ran out of supplies?

Perhaps your crops are contaminated, animals get sick and die, storage shed burns down, army unit or police unit confiscates your supplies, you are over run by looters, biological, radiation, or chemical contamination, or are forced off your land by a natural disaster that you can't prevent.

You are left with only as much gear and food as you can carry. You have to leave your property. You have no gasoline or oil. Where do you go and what do you do to feed and supply yourself on the way?


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## Magus

Head for the nearest river,provided its not full of fallout.


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## Canadian

Who cares about fallout? I heard three headed trout tastes awesome!


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## dunappy

I live 15 minutes (by car) or an hour or so by horse from a lake, 5 minutes from the national forest and I'll be taking with me one tent, and all the supplies I can load on 3 horses ( two are for us to ride) and I will take at least one gun and fishing equipment. and I know what wild foods are safe to eat. and I will hunt or fish and I will survive. 
But I also live in an area where there isn't much happening. What would have to happen would be extremely significant. As in something like a super volcano erruption or a nuclear bomb. This is not the type of place for riots, or looters or most natural disasters. We get a few heavy snow storms and that's it. No tornados, no earthquakes, and my property is protected from wildfires through my active efforts to keep it that way. 

I'm most likely able to stay put for most anything that goes on.


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## Canadian

Dunappy - I like the horses. Sounds like you're well situated. Wild food is awesome. I love the taste of deer meat. I have a friend who hunts and brings me some on occasion. I'd take fresh food over packaged any day of the week. Thanks for the input!


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## NaeKid

I hike. I cycle. I x-country ski. I snow shoe. I roller-blade.

The worst that would happen is I get too much exercise, barely enough water or food .. and I head 800km west or north. I have places that I can go and live. I would prefer to drive - but - I can do it. I have done it.

My dad for his 55th birthday rode his bicycle 775km to see a concert (that was ~5 years ago). In 1988 my dad rode 1100km to pick me up from school .. and that trip only took him 2 weeks.

It took me just under 2 weeks to cycle my way 650km - easy riding over mountains and taking in the sights (vacation). If I had to be somewhere, I would not stop till I absolutly had to. I have x-country ski-tour'd at 8+ hours per day before setting up camp - and then continue again the next day. In two weeks we completed just under 200km of ski-trails. No - its not fast, but - again, I have done it


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## Canadian

So far we have horses and bikes. If it comes down to survival of the fittest you'll win. I can't think of anyone fitter. It sounds like a disaster would just be a good excuse to get off work and ride. I'm imagining your dad in 1988 on his road bike wearing 1980's neon spandex. Fast and very 80's.


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## Magus

For some reason,I missed the poll part.....

If I'm starving,I'm not above looting an empty building.


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## Canadian

Me neither.


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## Smithy

Unfortunately, the poll ignores my first choice given the parameters. My church is very well organized, and in such a catestrophic eventuality, I see us banding together, pooling resources, and making do. Many of us have adquate supplies put up, but even if the house burnt down, we are not above helping each other out. I cannot realistically imagine the disaster that would wipe everyone out equally, with no outside assistance available... at least not the survivable kind. A nuke, of course, would end things quickly, but that's a whole 'nuther bag of apples.


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## Canadian

Smithy - I should have thought of that one for the poll. Good answer. The people at my church are great as well. Peace!


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## Backwoods

Hmmmmm.........Good question.

First off I would make SURE all my supplies had REALLY been destroyed. 

Then I would head off with what I could carry to join up with my team.

We have disscussed this before and agreed if one or more of us for one reason or another or our families are forced out of our property, supplies exausted etc..... we will join up with the others and continue on with life.

And no.........I would have no problem with taking something I needed from an abandoned building but I draw the line at a home unless I knew FOR SURE the former owners were either never coming back or they were beyond coming back.


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## Canadian

Getting feedback from everyone is making me feel a lot better about my fellow man and woman. I was expecting people to be far more aggressive. Instead I'm hearing a lot of kindness and compassion. Or maybe it's that people in the country are much nicer than people in the city. I'm confronted with lots of aggressive behavior in the city every day.

Thanks backwoods. I can always rely on your for realistic take on things.


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## SurvivalNut

*what to do..*

I'm with Smithy, my church is well stocked and pools resources.

I am guilty of living in a McMansion on 5 acres on the grid. My neigbors have boats and all the McToys. I have an orchard, a chicken coop, a 1/4 acre garden and next summer I am putting in a cistern and the following summer a well. In my garage window I have a coleman solar panel hanging to charge up my battery bank. This year I put in a wood stove and put up 4 cords of wood. Next year I will put up 8 cords of wood. In my freezer I keep a can of garden seeds and in my basement a year supply of dehydrated canned foods. My wife and I can foods. I am reforesting my property to provide a long-term source of firewood.

We may be the neighborhood McCrazies. But we live a comfortable and stressfree life. We smile and wave and serve our neighors in need.

Only an Earthquake could get us, we are in a safe out of the way area in the Pacific Northwest.

I plan to stay away from those who are looting unless everyone is dead anyway. I don't trust anyone who keeps looking over their shoulder. By the time my supplies run out I will have established mutual links with other surviving locals (Read the books ALAS BABYLON and MALEVIL)

If I get chased off my property I will just go RED DAWN on their ass. WOLVERINES!


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## AgentFlounder

Hard to answer with so many diverse possible scenarios... except to say that I would try really really hard to do the right thing. Maybe it sounds stupid but I'm not sure I'd want to survive by doing the wrong thing.

The question is length of time the disaster goes on and if you have supplies to last for that time, or a contingency plan to get supplies restocked. Two situations I am most concerned with due to perceived likelihood (supported by stats someone posted here) are blizzard and flood. With blizzard it is doubtful it'd last long enough that we'd run out of food and water, but there are ways to improvise I think, at least for water. For flood, I think the key is to go somewhere where there are supplies that can be provided and/or bought.


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## JeepHammer

If supplies run out, you simply eat the 'Commie Gun' carrying guys that show up!

They taste just like chicken!


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## Canadian

Survivalnut - Red Dawn was a great movie. You're McMansion sounds great. In Canada we call them "Monster Homes."


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## Canadian

Flounder- I've added several types of tools to our stash that we can use "just in case." I talked with my wife about the possibility that our supplies might run out and that we might be forced into a situation where we need to take them to survive. 

We wouldn't want to break into occupied buildings but we did buy a pair of the largest bolt cutters, pry bar, axe, and sledge hammer. We both don't like the idea of it but we decided to have the equipment and at least have to option to make the decision if we have to.


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## Canadian

Smithy - I visited your website. You're knives look awesome. Is knife making you full time job? Or do you just do it for personal enjoyment?


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## endurance

This is why I'm planning on putting in some caches. First, I don't like the idea of all my eggs in one basket. If I have a year's worth of food at the house, but my house gets burglarized, burns down, or is in an evacuation zone, I'm back at zero for preps. If I call 911 for a kitchen fire and the fire department reports that I have suspicious items in my kitchen like a food dehydrator, grain mill, wheat, and a solar freezer, I don't want to have to explain when the cops come back to talk to me and they find that I have a year's worth of food, fuel and ammunition. Even if it's legal, it makes the papers and that makes me a target of both ridicule and crime.

My goal is to spread out. I want to have enough at home to get through a long, harsh winter, but I see real benefits to getting anything more and caching it off site. Some stuff I'm planning on storing in a friend's basement. Other stuff may end up buried on public lands. 

Ultimately, I'd like two kinds of caches, resupply and restarting. Resupply would be the obvious, focused on food, batteries, and other consumables. Restarting caches would assume that either my home was destroyed or I could never return. That would mean I'd need to the tools to rebuild some reasonable quality of life. Obviously food is important, but shelter is critical. Having somewhere I could start over with the tools to build a cabin, till the land, seeds to grow crops, and materials to barter would be better than having nothing at all. If I get to the point of putting together a restart cache, I'd want it out of the area entirely. Ideally in opposite directions since I may not know now which direction I may need to get out of dodge.

I've started a few lists of items I'd consider valuable for each type of cache and if there's an interest, I'll post them. But I'd be interested in some feedback on the whole concept of caching first. Obviously there's risk that a cache could get stolen (although there's some obvious precautions to minimize the risk), but so could everything in your home, especially in an urban/suburban setting.


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## Canadian

Having caches is a great idea. I wanted to create a second horde at a relatives house. Mostly to keep the relatives away from here. My wife and I figured it could also be a "rally point" for the whole family. The grandparents have a huge house that could fit everyone. They also have a giant basement with a kitchen that would make a great stash spot for a whole lot of supplies and food. The problem has been talking them into letting us do this and getting the whole family to help pay for it.


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## SurvivalNut

Canadian said:


> Survivalnut - Red Dawn was a great movie. You're McMansion sounds great. In Canada we call them "Monster Homes."


We are the little McMansion, probably like Jed Clampett, The hillbilly neighbors.

And yes, I do have hose and piping and 12v pumps stored away so I can use the "Cement Pond" as a reservoir.

I am also looking at some plans to build a steam engine 
12v generator from scrap items. If it works out I will post the plans.

I enjoys these hobbies over keeping up with the Joneses.


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## SurvivalNut

endurance said:


> This is why I'm planning on putting in some caches. My goal is to spread out. I want to have enough at home to get through a long, harsh winter, but I see real benefits to getting anything more and caching it off site.
> Ultimately, I'd like two kinds of caches, resupply and restarting.


Great Idea! I have a year's suply here and the ability to maintain indefinitely if not permanently. My plan is to stay no matter what, but a restart kit, cached, would be austere and not that expensive if I use my spares and shop garage sales. Great insurance.

I would be interested in your list and location ideas.

Hmmm, how do you pack a homestead in a box and hide it in plain sight?


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## Canadian

Survivalnut - I'd love to have and ice tea by the "cement pond." I wish I had a cement pond...


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## Washkeeton

Canadian said:


> We all live in areas that could face unique types of disasters. Some of you may be preparing for a flood, ice storm, forest fire, earthquake, volcano, tropical storm, tornado, food shortage, riots or any other type of disaster.
> 
> We all hope that our supplies will last until the disaster is over and things get back more or less to the way they were. What if things didn't go to plan and you actually ran out of supplies?
> 
> Perhaps your crops are contaminated, animals get sick and die, storage shed burns down, army unit or police unit confiscates your supplies, you are over run by looters, biological, radiation, or chemical contamination, or are forced off your land by a natural disaster that you can't prevent.
> 
> You are left with only as much gear and food as you can carry. You have to leave your property. You have no gasoline or oil. Where do you go and what do you do to feed and supply yourself on the way?


Well considering we have our share of the above listed as in flood, ice storms, forest fire, earthquake, and volcanos, already... I am looking to learn how the old natives lived. I have been researching foods, food storage, housing, and the likes.. I have also been researching hunting techniques of the old traditional natives.. I want to be able to walk into the wilderness and survive... considering Alaska is mostly wilderness and some civilization... I have the frigid camping gear covered to a point... still want some hides for both a bed mat and clothing... Beaver for hat, gloves and socks. I have the boots. I have 3 dog sleds... and a some what dog team... I may have to walk if the sleds were loaded down. I can put wheels on them for spring and summer... actually I have wheels for them now just havent taken the time to fix them to the sled.

I want to get where I know what is avail at any given time in the year food wise... I know a bunch of the edible plants up here but not how to use them madicinally. I do have 3 books that have that information but I have not had the time to read them...

I have about 15 of my best books that I would take (how to)... guns, amo, bow, arrows, set up for bow fishing, fishing equipt, (most of the time I make my own bait), dip netting equipt, traps, snairs, what hides I do have, a small wood cook stove. I would also take winter clothing and equiptment, I would take hand tools (shovel, rake, saws, axes, hammers, bow saws, knives, etc) and if I were to end in an area that is condusive to gardening... I would take seeds incase...I would take my snair making equipt.. as well as my dog line equiptment to repair the lines and or make new ones. (I will be loading 2 six foot dog sleds and one 8 footer).... I would take the equiptment to repair the sleds too as well as the tools to make new ones if I needed to....To eat with and off of... I have a cast iron dutch oven and stand.. a sturing implements... I have metal plates, cups, and silverware for camping... that could be scraped and washed in a river to be reused... would carry the dog food bucket and a large cooker along with the dishes nested inside the cooker to feed and water the dogs.


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## Canadian

The dog team sounds great. People in my area only have what we call "condo sized" dogs. You'd probably need about fifty of them to pull a sled. I've always wondered what people would do with their "pets" in a food shortage? I'm sure you don't think of horses or dogs as pets like city folk do. Your animals are good for more than just companionship. City animals have no practical use. I always wondered if people would just turn their dogs loose on the city streets?


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## SurvivalNut

Canadian said:


> Survivalnut - I'd love to have and ice tea by the "cement pond." I wish I had a cement pond...


And that's kind of the whole point. You are always welcome, After 9/11 when planes were grounded for a week or whole neighborhoods uninhabitable, people needed places to go.

If I ever go to the Edmonton Mall to spend my devalued greenbacks, then I would be able to call any member of my church up there to "set a spell" if the SHTF. Likewise my door is open to like minded folk down here. (I only use the chainsaw on firewood).

We just had 2 feet of snow here. I ran to the Costco to get an eldely ladies heart meds. Would I take her in in SHTF? Yes, don't ever know her, I was just checking in on my daughters at their apts. My mom is in California, I would hope someone would do the same.

I remember how people felt the weeks after 9/11. That is the difference between peace and anarchy. If you want to dig a hole and wait for the need to loot, go ahead, In the meantime, I will be checking on my neighbors and sync restarting society, one door knock at a time.

Do I have a safe house in Canada? I'll sleep on the floor and bring my own gas mask.....


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## Canadian

There's an unlimited supply of friendship at my house.


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## SurvivalNut

Canadian said:


> There's an unlimited supply of friendship at my house.


I apreciate that and the same in return. We should all prepare, but when you are just drop dead, kicked and in the SHTF gutter, nothing but bad luck, there will always be someone to pick you up. Any scenario, any crisis. Not the govt, but somene you don't even know.

You can read people and allies in a disaster may be better than all the food and ammo in the world. Pick wisely and be fair The hords will monger themselves, and the sensible will survive. It's that extra insurance that just happens when you need it.

Thanks! I knew CDNs were good folk!


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## Canadian

Being a Canadian can be difficult at times. We spend a lot of time defending Americans. Not in the military sense - but in the sense of international reputation. 

Canadians who travel the world hear a lot of negative things about Americans. We are often mistaken for being American. This leads to people accusing us of a great many things. They also assume that we're on the same side as the U.S. on every issue. This is not always true. Just look at free healthcare or Iraq. Since we're not American foreign people tend to listen to us when we step in and defend Americans. 

Canadians realize the there's a huge difference between what American citizens and American politicians want. Almost every American citizen I've met has been friendly and nice. In fact the further south you go the friendlier they seem to get.

Americans are also the proudest people I've ever met. I've met lots of Americans who live in poverty and will honestly say they "live in the best country on earth." These are poor people who have no access to health care. In Canada we all get health care for free and we have more social services to help the poor than in the Unites States - Yet few of us would chant "we're number one" or "greatest nation on earth" and expect to be taken seriously.

I guess what I'm saying is all American people have a friend when it comes to Canadians. Many Canadians disagree about our deployment in Afghanistan but we all support our troops. We also disagree with a lot of things the American government has done lately but we all support the average American citizen. 

I feel like the American people have had their country hijacked. If America was truly run by the people for the people it would not look the way it does today. We're starting to have the same problems up here. 

We don't always have to agree but we can still be good neighbors. We do share the world's longest undefended border. If that doesn't say "trust" I don't know what does.

God Bless Americans!


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## The_Blob

dang, endurance, WHEN did food dehydrators & grain mills become 'suspicios items'... that is just sick if people treat you poorly for being an ANT as opposed to a GRASSHOPPER

I live in the highest part of my state (1500' ASL... nothing compared to CO  ) so don't worry aboot floods personally, and am fortunate enough to have our own natural gas & water wells... i'm saving up to buy a natural gas generator but they are PRICEY! 

one thing people don't do in a blizzard (that shut down utilities) that I always thought was weird was band together in 1 house/apartment (preferably with a fireplace) to allow body heat to keep them warm. ever been to a big x-mas party? it can get quite warm

the question of what would you do with your pets was interesting, I have to admit I would have to absolutely be starving before I considered eating them & probably would try to get them to run away before I got that desperate so they at least had a chance... of course, game is plentiful in my area & not nearly as many people actually can hunt for subsistence as they would like to think...

it helps to know that i KNOW i can eat gophers/groundhogs and other critters people wouldn't think of until they were desperate


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## Jezcruzen

Smitty has a great point regarding his church.
Often I read posts from someone... maybe a young person, who lives in an apartment located in a metro area who feels isolated and is searching for a 'group" should a SHTF event occur.
In many cases, being a member of a church provides you with just such a group to fall back on and work with in helping each other during times of disaster.
Ummm... not being a religious person myself (but a spiritual one), maybe I should follow my own suggestion. Becoming a member of a church community could be an awesome resource!


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## Canadian

Church is fun. I love my church.


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## vikx

Just re-read all the posts and it's great food for thought! I have been "preparing" all my life-read all the wilderness survival books as a kid, wild animal books and "Wildwood Wisdom" was practically my bible-a great old book about staying alive in all sorts of situations; taking care of yourself, so to speak.

My hobby of late has been repairing vintage travel trailers. Mine are 50s and 60s, average about 15 feet. They have a stove, icebox or fridge, a sink with a water system and a heater. No toilet or shower but hey-not a problem, right? These little trailers are fun and time consuming to fix and also have everything one would need to start over. So I have a rolling cache. 

Some of the most interesting "fixes" involve upgrades to make life easier on the road, like 12 volt systems, a battery and solar panels. I also am a great fan of propane appliances, usually efficient, safe and amazingly versatile. It keeps me busy on my free days.

While it's not always practical to think about a vehicle and trailer, I like to think my little trailers are helping me prepare and I do keep survival items ready to go. VK


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## WakingUp

Canadian,

Your words and position are warm and greatly appreciated.. but I have to wonder what Americans you have met. I've been an American all my life and I gotta tell you - the country you describe is only half the story. Yes - we have been hijacked. We've been hijacked by "the other half". 

The people on this board and those describing their neighborly generosity are not representative of the people I know - and not even representative of the "survivalist" types I know here locally. Things in the cities have gotten to the point that everyone is angry all the time - it's all about taking care of #1 (in the most short-sighted, narrow minded sense of the term.)

If you gave this pole to the folks in my neighborhood, my office, the town as a whole - the results would be massively different. My biggest fear is widespread looting - within a matter of days of a breakdown in services. We all saw what happened during Katrina... I see what happens when we have hurricanes here. The only thing that brings order and relief is the National Guard. If they don't come (and they have been otherwise occupied for quite a while now) all hell breaks loose.

The area I live in has two kinds of threats in a situation like this: gangs and drug addicts who will stop at nothing to get their fix, and overfed, defenseless yuppies who are ripe pickings for the aforementioned. As luck would have it, I live among the overfed yuppies and as such am in the path of the storm. When SHTF, I will have to bug out b/c this area would be an "occupied zone".

My hope is to develop a network of folks in the sticks that can offer shelter in exchange for an extra back and hard working hands. That's the very best I could hope for. But I know that a lot of folks will be hoping for the same so it's gonna be a competitive proposition. It isn't looking good.

I am wide open for better ideas.


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## Canadian

Waking - 

I live in one of the largest cities in the world and I face the same fears as you. I've taken the position that in the event of a disaster I'd probably face police or military roadblocks, blocked highways and intersections, mobs of looters, abandoned or overturned cars. I keep my gas tank full but my car will only go about 500 km on a full tank. If things go real bad there's no guarantee that I'll even be able to find gasoline. 

So I've decided to bunker down right where I am. I live in a brick and cement town home in a gated community. I'm pretty well fortified as it is. My wife and I are working on getting a backup location somewhere else in the city. People in my city are pretty typical - mostly jerks. They are the people I'll have to worry about when their food runs out. 

Most of the friendly Americans I've met were from smaller places. However, people from New York were very loud and aggressive and surprisingly friendly. I had one New Yorker shout in my face "Canadians think we're not friendly but we really are friendly!!! Don't you think I'm friendly!!! Well!?! Don't you!?!"

"Uh, yeah sure whatever you say. Please don't hurt me..." They were actually very nice people. 

I put the poll up so that my wife and I could discuss the possibility of having to loot if our supplies ran out. She likes seeing what other people have to say. 

Peace!


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## Jezcruzen

The reality is that each and every one of us would end up doing whatever it took to stay alive. In desperate times we will both feel amazement and disgust at our own behavior(s). We will kick, gouge and claw if things get bad enough. Let's hope they don't.


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## Canadian

Jezcruzen - There are many examples in history where millions of people were marched off to their death and didn't resist one bit. The idea that "everyone" will do whatever it takes is false. History shows that human beings routinely face death and danger and literally do nothing to save themselves. 

Most humans don't even act like humans anymore. They're more like domesticated animals. The average compliant and obedient human will obey right until their head is in the noose.


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## Homestead Gal

Cached supplies is an EXCELLENT way to not only stay alive but to insure you or others in your group have the supplies necessary for survival.

We are preparing cache areas here on our homestead. We are also in a "network" of others who area doing the same. We intend to stay put if possible in our own homes. If one of us faces a calamity, the others will pitch in to assist.

While we do not live in a commune, we have a community mindset for survival. Between us all, we have many of the tools, skills and supplies we need for the long haul. We will defend ourselves and each other, if necessary. If we have to bug out, we can do it as a group and survive.

I'd also like to point out that you should consider planting food sources in unlikely places if you have property to do so. While it is convenient to have all your veggies in one garden, you can loose it all in one night to thieves or have it destroyed by natural/man made disaster.

Take a hike around your property and take PH samples of the soil. Plant what will grow there and don't worry about fencing it off or staking it up. The object is to grow what you can eat anywhere it will grow. The more places you plant the better the odds of having food available when you need it.

Learn from watching animals. They travel and forage. Nature provides for all by scattering the food supply so if part of it is destroyed, other areas are available for food and for repopulation of the species.

In a worst case scenerio, if we don't make it, those who stumble onto our property (animal or human) can find fruits, nuts and berries to survive.


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## Homestead Gal

> ...it helps to know that i KNOW i can eat gophers/groundhogs and other critters people wouldn't think of until they were desperate.


Groundhog is some tasty eatin'! They skin out easy and the meat looks like dark chicken and tastes like steak.

Very good on the BBQ. Yummy!


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## TrailWalker

*Head for the Woods*

I am just a five minute walk to my woods. There I can just follow the creek to the river. This spring I'm going to plant a wilderness garden along the route.


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## Jezcruzen

Canadian said:


> Jezcruzen - There are many examples in history where millions of people were marched off to their death and didn't resist one bit. The idea that "everyone" will do whatever it takes is false. History shows that human beings routinely face death and danger and literally do nothing to save themselves.
> 
> Most humans don't even act like humans anymore. They're more like domesticated animals. The average compliant and obedient human will obey right until their head is in the noose.


I can't discount your observation. One only has to look at the Jews in WWII who went obediently to their deaths.

The post, however, referred to having our supplies run out, not being under the control of a totalitarian regime. My response was to the supply issue only.


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## endurance

I had an interesting conversation with my 87 year old step-father over Christmas Eve dinner last week. I asked him about the depression and he told stories the rest of the evening. He was happy to tell those stories, but won't even talk about WWII. I know he was in Anzio, so he's seen hell.

In any case, the thing that stuck out the most to him was the deflation. He lived on a small farm during the depression and remembers corn prices plummeting and that's when neighbors started working together more. Rather than take the low prices for their corn, they bartered for hogs. They couldn't store a whole pig, so they'd split it up between several families and take turns buying the pigs. He recalled some disease coming through and they had to slaughter 70-80 pigs just to stop the spread to other farms, but other farmers helped them get restarted, too. There was a lot of cooperation that we sure don't see today, but I'd sure like to.

While there will always be a criminal element in our society, I think most people really do try to do the right thing. Personally, I can't imagine turning away my neighbors if they're hungry and I still have an income and food. I may not be able to support my whole neighborhood, but I'm damn sure going to do what I can to lend a helping hand to those people who are in need.


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## mitchshrader

do whatever it takes < ignores ethics. that leaves 'ask or beg or barter' and that's poorly phrased but at least it INCLUDES ethical behavior.. 

and frankly, if I run out of supplies, 98% of everybody else has STARVED already.. so I may not be needing to worry about non-survivors at all. 

i can farm if forced to it, milk cows and plant potatoes and sorghum and sugar beets and GET BY when most wouldn't have the skill or tools.. but it's almighty hard work and i'm not anxious to prove it.. 

generally when folks ask me about running out of supplies I go buy more groceries, by reflex. 

ammo, meh.. a few cases are likely plenty. Food? hmm.. I want *too much* food.. always, from now on. 

and seeds, for back up..


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## Canadian

Mitch - Yeah - it's my hope that if my supplies run out most of the people here will have starved or fled the city long ago.


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## Jezcruzen

mitchshrader said:


> do whatever it takes < ignores ethics. that leaves 'ask or beg or barter' and that's poorly phrased but at least it INCLUDES ethical behavior..
> 
> and frankly, if I run out of supplies, 98% of everybody else has STARVED already.. so I may not be needing to worry about non-survivors at all.
> 
> i can farm if forced to it, milk cows and plant potatoes and sorghum and sugar beets and GET BY when most wouldn't have the skill or tools.. but it's almighty hard work and i'm not anxious to prove it..
> 
> generally when folks ask me about running out of supplies I go buy more groceries, by reflex.
> 
> ammo, meh.. a few cases are likely plenty. Food? hmm.. I want *too much* food.. always, from now on.
> 
> and seeds, for back up..


Mitch... in a life or death survival situation involving both you and your family I'd wager that you would find "ethics" to be a luxury you can't afford.


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## LiveFreeOrDie..

Canadian said:


> Getting feedback from everyone is making me feel a lot better about my fellow man and woman. I was expecting people to be far more aggressive. Instead I'm hearing a lot of kindness and compassion. Or maybe it's that people in the country are much nicer than people in the city. I'm confronted with lots of aggressive behavior in the city every day.
> 
> Thanks backwoods. I can always rely on your for realistic take on things.


I agree with you Canadian. I find that people with the concerns we all have here tend to be compassionate first, but ready to be aggressive if need be. It's the people that don't think about these things that we have to watch out for. I find it's fairly obvious who those people will probably be just making simple observations going about my day.


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## LiveFreeOrDie..

Homestead Gal said:


> Groundhog is some tasty eatin'! They skin out easy and the meat looks like dark chicken and tastes like steak.
> 
> Very good on the BBQ. Yummy!


wow, to think of all the good eatin' my family missed out on when my dad would shoot a groundhog in our garden and throw him in the woods for his buddies to see, lol


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## ke4sky

*Roger That!*



Smithy said:


> Unfortunately, the poll ignores my first choice given the parameters. My church is very well organized, and in such a catestrophic eventuality, I see us banding together, pooling resources, and making do. Many of us have adquate supplies put up, but even if the house burnt down, we are not above helping each other out. I cannot realistically imagine the disaster that would wipe everyone out equally, with no outside assistance available... at least not the survivable kind. A nuke, of course, would end things quickly, but that's a whole 'nuther bag of apples.


Your AO is close to DC, check the annual threat assessement from DHS

Two worst cases are dirty bomb, which would contaminate a large area, leaving a chaotic crowd of confused, panicky survivors.

With a 10KT ground burst those beyond a mile or two can survive if properly sheltered:

1/3 mile from epicenter all buildings destroyed, virtually no one left alive

3/4 mile radius major damage, most people not in substantial shelter killed or injured

1 mile radius moderate damage, buildings ravaged by fires and many blast survivors will die later from lethal radiation exposure

Downwind debris plume exposes tens of thousands to lethal radiation dose unless survivors are adequately sheltered and decontaminated

So best is not to live next door to the Bullseye. Getting to know neighbors in your community to share supplies, ensure mutual security and help each other is the way to go.


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## littlechickenranchHen

I see the key to surviving if supplies run out as working well with others in your community. We are "touching base" with like minded people who are our neighbors. My DH works with a man who lives about 2 miles from us, who is just beginning prepping and we are sharing our resource information with him, and one of our volunteer firemen lives a couple miles away, and he is working with us cutting and storing firewood for us and him. Never too early to begin!!


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## endurance

littlechickenranchHen said:


> I see the key to surviving if supplies run out as working well with others in your community. We are "touching base" with like minded people who are our neighbors. My DH works with a man who lives about 2 miles from us, who is just beginning prepping and we are sharing our resource information with him, and one of our volunteer firemen lives a couple miles away, and he is working with us cutting and storing firewood for us and him. Never too early to begin!!


That's what I'm talking about. Building that sense of rapport and community now will #1, improve the quality of your life today, as none of us have too many friends, #2, provides a greater base of knowledge, perspective and experience to draw from, thus minimizes fear and anxiety, #3, gives you allies for the coming hard times that you can work with in the future.

Kudos for taking the steps to improve your lot in life before you "need" to.


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## Canadian

Teamwork is the best resource you can have. Two is one. One is none.


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## Smithy

Canadian said:


> Smithy - I visited your website. You're knives look awesome. Is knife making you full time job? Or do you just do it for personal enjoyment?


I apologize for not answering this. I left home the day after Christmas to start an accellerated Masters program in California, and I've been pretty busy.

Knifemaking is my "professional hobby", what I want to do when I retire, if there is such a thing, in another 20 years. My wife accuses me of having too many hobbies, and she's partly right... I also consider myself an outdoorsman, a motorcyclist, a musician, and general craftsman. When the day comes that I quit working in an office, I want the tools, skills, and reputation in place so the transition to full-time cutler isn't a horrid one. Trying to make money off of it will suck the fun away pretty quick, but I have noticed that among full-time makers, there are some who develop their own niche, make what they make, and it all sells at the asking price. That's my goal... someday.

In the meantime, in my cramped student apartment, away from my shop and family and tools and forge, I'm going slightly mad for lack of a very hot fire and my favorite hammer. Good news is, I go home for a short break next week, and there will be some evening pounding going on.


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## George_H_M

I can also echo the comments on I'll do just about anything to keep my family feed and safe. But I will not become a thief or a murderer to provide for my family . I am more then willing to work with others for a common goal as well as long as we all are doing our fair share of work . Killing someone would only be in self defense . Yes it might seam like high morals, but I have to live with what I do to live not what someone else chooses to do to get by . I also agree by the time i run out of food. most people will have already run off to find help or died off .


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## Canadian

George - If you live - you're going to have to live with the things you've done. I too hope that by the time my food starts to run out most other people will be long gone.


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## MaryV

I too will not become a criminal, robbing people or killing people, if I had to forage through an abandoned home for food, so be it, but I wont take something from someone else who needs it. well....I know that sounds lofty, but I intend to have enough food for myself and my family to last me a while. If it runs out, and we have no other options than to get in a govt food line that wants to put a microchip in me, then we will starve and say goodbye to this world.


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## Canadian

I too don't want to hurt anyone or take anyone's property without permission. However, I did buy some tools for breaking down doors and cutting locks off in case we needs to get into something or somewhere that's under lock and key. I figure we might as well be prepared for anything.


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## Viking

Where we live if you can't survive by stepping out your back door and walk up the mountain or down the creek for food then I really feel sorry for you. There is no reason that a hunter or hiker that is lost should starve to death, at almost anytime of the year there are things that can be eaten, pine needles, pine nuts, grubs in old rotting logs and stumps, squirrels, grouse, quail, (spotted owls if need be,lol), deer, bear, elk, beargrass, blue huckleberry, manzineta berrys, chinquapin nuts, fish and many other things that don't come to mind at this time. When I lived in Washington I used to visit BC frequently, mostly the Penticton area, beautiful country with great fishing and wonderful people. I could have easily married one of the Canadian gals I met.


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## Canadian

I do love Canadian girls. I've met girls from all over the world but I always seem to connect best with the ones from my home country. The west coast of Canada is really wonderful. I remember seeing salmon swimming up stream and giant redwood tress and how beautiful the rainforest was. It was the first time I saw water that you could drink that didn't come out of a tap. 

Growing up in a huge city I'd never seen nature like that before. It was a real eye opener. To someone with the knowledge and training I guess starving to death in the woods would be like starving to death in a fully stocked kitchen. I'm glad you live in a bountiful place. I have to make do with concrete for now and the only hunting I can do is at the supermarket.


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## FreeAmerica

I started working out about 8-9 months ago for many reasons, one of which is to be as physically able as possible if things fall apart. I'm also stockpiling food. If all hades breaks loose, my family will lock the doors and stay put for as long as we have food. Hopefully that will last us 4-5 months. After that, I agree - it's survival of the fittest.


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## Canadian

I guess if there was no food at all it could be survival of the fattest?


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## Smithy

I may just win that contest...


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## Canadian

I've been a default vegan for about five weeks now. I got a mild case of alcohol poisoning and ever since I can't even look at certain foods. I'm also lactose intolerant so I've never eaten many milk products. I've lost three pants sizes in the past five weeks with no exercise. Even though I'm feeling better I've decided to stick with it. I'm loving the weight loss. So is my wife!


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## Backwoods

Boy.........This thread has been going for awhile.

You know..........The fact that we are dancing around here is that no matter how well we plan or stock up unless an "Event" is minor or short lived SOMEDAY the supplies will finally run out. Will it be in our lifetime???? Our children????? Their children????? Who knows????

Even if there is anything left stashed or say in an abandoned grocery store after a few years it will be stale or rancid so unless you have built into your plans growing your own food or hunting your own game it will be a pretty tough going.

One of my friends told me one time that when there was nothing left to use for toilet paper he would know it was the end of the world.


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## Backwoods

Canadian said:


> I've been a default vegan for about five weeks now. I got a mild case of alcohol poisoning and ever since I can't even look at certain foods. I'm also lactose intolerant so I've never eaten many milk products. I've lost three pants sizes in the past five weeks with no exercise. Even though I'm feeling better I've decided to stick with it. I'm loving the weight loss. So is my wife!


So..............We should be on the lookout for a skinny Canadian that turns down a beer, can't drink milk and hangs around the salad bar????


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## Canadian

Speaking of vegans...

How's this for funny. I took my wife's sister to the gun club the other day. She's a left wing militant vegan animal rights activist. Now her mom who is a left wing pacifist crystal and petuli toting new ager wants to come along the next time we go. Nobody ever though they'd see her doing this...










She's told all of her vegan left wing anti-fur new age hippy friends and to her surprise... They are all incredibly impressed. They all think it's totally cool and are very jealous of her. She even posted a photo album on facebook so her friends could see the pics. I think we're a little ways of from taking her hunting... So we'll have to work up to that.

In the meantime I like to think I've planted a few seeds of doubt in the militant left wing vegan community.

However, the next thing we're doing together is going racing. Lots of fossil fuels being burned. Burning rubber etc. Who knows? I might eventually get her to vote Conservative. Or at least get her to actually vote.

I'm not even close to skinny. I've gone from a size 42 to a size 39 or so. I figure a few more months of this and I'll be back down to a 36 which is about where I should be. I'm not even working out I'm just eating no meat and less food in general with no snacking.

Once it gets a little warmer out the jogging will begin. I have finally admitted I am middle aged.


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## Canadian

I have not looked at these poll results in a while. Looks like nobody trusts a government safe zone. Also the number of people willing to do "whatever it takes" has gone way up. Pretty ruthless bunch here.


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## Magus

Vegans like to defend themselves too,so do new agers.

Hows that Baretta storm shoot?
they look cool!


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## Canadian

Storm shoots very well. I don't like .40 in pistols but in the storm it was nice. Light recoil and very accurate. The sights are fine and the trigger isn't as bad as everyone says it is. 

I took her formula cart racing a few weeks ago. We're starting to bring her into the modern age. She really enjoyed racing too.


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## sailaway

If I'm not thinking about a natural disaster, I imagine what it would be like to be a Jew durring the Holocost and be hunted down. Would I be able to survive and go undetected? I would like to get to this capability to stealthly go through life.


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## Canadian

These days they'd probably have some kind of portable DNA test. It would make it a lot harder.


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## The_Blob

sailaway, better get on that sooner rather than later... especially with the new medical registration legislation being implemented


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## Canadian

Next thing you know it's the "mark of the beast" bar code on your forehead.


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## The_Blob

you sure it won't be a retro-30s fashion statement a la Germany on our fore-arms?


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## Chieftain

*I'm new around here as my postcount betrays, and I just found this survey. "None of the Above" ought to be added to this list.

I for one am a bit surprized to find that list here at a site that purportedly wants to discuss "Emergency Preparedness", and the choices on this survey are far too cynical for my tastes.

Your survival supplies are meant to keep you alive long enough to survive whatever event has driven you to rely on those supplies, until you can arrange to hunt or grow some supplies of your own.

Sure, 25 pounds of black beans will only last so long, but with some planning and reasonable preparations you could be eating a lot more than that, and eating well. There is absolutely no reason why a homeowner cannot plan to "Survive in Place" through "Urban Homesteading". If you have a house and a yard, you have more of a securable, dry asset than the people who founded the US ever did.

I got into a discussion at another site this week, over some dude who wanted to know what the shelf life of his Potassium Iodide tablets were, since he carries them around with him in the glovebox of his car. (For the uninitiated, Potassium Iodide is taken to help control radiation poisoning).

My comments were that if he was ever out in his car and ran into a situation that required him to immediately ingest potassium iodide, then he was about to have more problems than those pills would ever cure. I got some heat for suggesting he would be better off with 50 pounds of rice in a sealed plastic bucket...

The point is, many people confuse disaster planning with the end of the world, as in a massive nuclear strike. I think those days are long gone, and while we still live under a bullseye for a nuclear attack, the scenario changed when the former Soviet Union fell. We don't have the "security" of Mutually Assured Destruction, because the people most likely to attack us with a nuclear weapon don't subscribe to the same treaties we and the Soviets did...

I'm making certain that I have a good variety of good quality supplies stocked and preserved so they will last for years. While it's almost impossible to be 100% ready for anything, I'd rather make a stand here in my home and work to ensure my family survives in place, as opposed to just planning to hit the nearest refugee camp...*


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## SurvivalNut

some (many) posts here are meant to be tongue in cheek. They are meant to critical of the world at large as well as ourselves. We can laugh and point fingers at ourselves as well as anyone else. The larger ideas here, chickens, food storage, 72 hr and BOB's and emergency preparedness are all covered in depth. What is left after we "think" we are BEGINNING to be prepared are the dark brain discussions tossed out to make us look at ourselves and question life.

Yes, I do have PI tablets, right next to the hybrid seeds, rice and beans.

You are among friends. Poking and calling us on the carpet is good. No offense, keep us thinking!


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## Canadian

Chieftain said:


> *I'm new around here as my postcount betrays, and I just found this survey. "None of the Above" ought to be added to this list.
> 
> I for one am a bit surprized to find that list here at a site that purportedly wants to discuss "Emergency Preparedness", and the choices on this survey are far too cynical for my tastes.
> 
> Your survival supplies are meant to keep you alive long enough to survive whatever event has driven you to rely on those supplies, until you can arrange to hunt or grow some supplies of your own.
> 
> Sure, 25 pounds of black beans will only last so long, but with some planning and reasonable preparations you could be eating a lot more than that, and eating well. There is absolutely no reason why a homeowner cannot plan to "Survive in Place" through "Urban Homesteading". If you have a house and a yard, you have more of a securable, dry asset than the people who founded the US ever did.
> 
> I got into a discussion at another site this week, over some dude who wanted to know what the shelf life of his Potassium Iodide tablets were, since he carries them around with him in the glovebox of his car. (For the uninitiated, Potassium Iodide is taken to help control radiation poisoning).
> 
> My comments were that if he was ever out in his car and ran into a situation that required him to immediately ingest potassium iodide, then he was about to have more problems than those pills would ever cure. I got some heat for suggesting he would be better off with 50 pounds of rice in a sealed plastic bucket...
> 
> The point is, many people confuse disaster planning with the end of the world, as in a massive nuclear strike. I think those days are long gone, and while we still live under a bullseye for a nuclear attack, the scenario changed when the former Soviet Union fell. We don't have the "security" of Mutually Assured Destruction, because the people most likely to attack us with a nuclear weapon don't subscribe to the same treaties we and the Soviets did...
> 
> I'm making certain that I have a good variety of good quality supplies stocked and preserved so they will last for years. While it's almost impossible to be 100% ready for anything, I'd rather make a stand here in my home and work to ensure my family survives in place, as opposed to just planning to hit the nearest refugee camp...*


Hi, I'm the person who originally posted the poll. I cannot add any options to the poll as the forum only allows a maximum of 10 options per poll. This means on many polls several options are left off for lack of slots in the poll architecture.

We are also a good spirited and for the most part have a pretty good sense of humor. I doubt you could call any of us cynical as we're all looking forward to surviving. That's part of being a survivalist and not a fatalist.

As you can see by reviewing the poll results none of us will be hitting the nearest refugee camp. Also keep in mind we all have different needs. I'm Canadian so someone in Texas might say I'm foolish for having a -20C sleeping bag - not knowing it snows here half the year.

Someone who lives a few towns over in the city of Pickering Ontario would be well advised to have anti-radiation measures as the main employer is one of the largest nuclear plants and spent fuel storage facilities in North America.

Please refrain from *SHOUTING YOUR POSTS *at all of us. There's no reason why things can't be said in a friendly and civilized manner.

Please keep in mind what you think is best for your survival may not be the best for others. Some of us live where it gets cold, others the heat, some on the coast, some have boats, some in the mountains, some are near industrial sites, nuclear plants, military bases, large cities, or small towns.

Also we like to talk about a wide range of scenarios. If we only talked about the basics it wouldn't be much of a forum. We always need new things to talk about. If you don't like a posted topic please post one of your own.

If you truly feel that none of the options on a particular poll suit you them simply do not vote on that poll.

Thanks!


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## sgt.doug

wow.............ill just say................just like when i was a kid in cub-scouts,
be prepared............prepared for what ever you think you need to be prepared for. i myself would rather be stamped crazy for some of the stuff i do for matter of being prepared as opposed to being in a situation with nothing.......ill check the be preparred for the all of the above box.


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## jafl

dunappy said:


> I live 15 minutes (by car) or an hour or so by horse from a lake, 5 minutes from the national forest and I'll be taking with me one tent, and all the supplies I can load on 3 horses ( two are for us to ride)


What are you going to feed them horses when you get to the woods? As far as I know horses only have 1 stomach so they cannot live off the land the way a cow or goat can.



> and I will take at least one gun and fishing equipment. and I know what wild foods are safe to eat.


Will these wild foods still be safe if they are poisoned with radioactive fallout or biochemical agents? This day and age they could easily be poisoned with auto exhaust and agro-chemical runoff.



> But I also live in an area where there isn't much happening.


A lot could end up happening if other people try to take refuge in the same place you do.

The world likely has too many people and not enough places for the rugged individualism you libertarians long for to ever be possible.

I agree it is best to not ever be in a situation where you have to depend on someone else for your survival, but I just don't see how such isolated independence is possible in the modern world.


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## jafl

Smithy said:


> Unfortunately, the poll ignores my first choice given the parameters. My church is very well organized, and in such a catestrophic eventuality, I see us banding together, pooling resources, and making do.


I see this as the only viable option, but the focus of your societal organization need not be a church. When a homesteader on the American frontier had livestock to protect, he usually didn't care about the religion of the people that came to the barn raising. Human survival is contingent on our willingness to cooperate with each other within society as much as it is our ability to compete with each other.

If disaster were ever to set in motion the plans of the cabin-in-the-woods survivalists on a mass scale, I don't see human history lasting very long after the disaster. When left to their own devices, without restraint of law, society or religion, to act in their own individual self-interest humans will invariably infringe on the rights of others. Libertarians long for the state of nature that a disaster situation could allow, but the last time humans lived in a state of nature, Cain killed his brother.



> A nuke, of course, would end things quickly, but that's a whole 'nuther bag of apples.


What about a dirty bomb, or a tactical-sized nuclear bomb like the ones used to end World War II? Don't ever assume that any disaster will be un-survivable. If you do, you may not plan and prepare adequately and thereby fulfill your own assumption.


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## jafl

SurvivalNut said:


> Only an Earthquake could get us, we are in a safe out of the way area in the Pacific Northwest.


St. Helens? Forest fire? Tourists?


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## SurvivalNut

jafl said:


> St. Helens? Forest fire? Tourists?


We are substantially far enough from St Helens to not worry about it, based on the previous event, still, I have studied the after action reviews and lessons learned from 1980 and have that covered.

There are woods by us, but we keep our property fire safe and practice USFS/BLM measures, and have a pool and back up pump to use for water.

Not a tourist destination and not by a major highway.

Not a flood area.

An earthquake would make us reconstruct shelter, but supplies are in multiple locations and hardened.

Worst nightmare scenario is fallout. Short of a full military strike, we wil be fine.

Enough neighbors to be comfortable but spaced well apart. All long term single family plats.

Not a perfect location, but many plus factors!


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## sailaway

I've always tried to be a gentleman, but I would have to do what it took if my family was really having problems.


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## Chieftain

Canadian....sorry that my post appear to be "shouting", it's my habit of "*bolding*" my comments because I can read them easier on my laptop. In the interests of keeping peace, I beg your pardon...

And please don't think that my comments were an attack on you...the poll just pushed my button and I had to respond...

Back on point. I think that any disaster that strikes, and leaves my house still standing, and my supplies (relatively) intact, is survivable in place.


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## Canadian

I didn't know you were bolding text due to a sight issues. Normally bold text on a forum is considered "shouting." It would change the way in which people take your posts. 

No need to apologize. Not everyone is familiar with the conventions of a forum. Everyone is welcome to voice their views on the forum. 

With Respect

Canadian.


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## lanahi

Canadian said:


> We all live in areas that could face unique types of disasters. Some of you may be preparing for a flood, ice storm, forest fire, earthquake, volcano, tropical storm, tornado, food shortage, riots or any other type of disaster.
> 
> We all hope that our supplies will last until the disaster is over and things get back more or less to the way they were. What if things didn't go to plan and you actually ran out of supplies?
> 
> Perhaps your crops are contaminated, animals get sick and die, storage shed burns down, army unit or police unit confiscates your supplies, you are over run by looters, biological, radiation, or chemical contamination, or are forced off your land by a natural disaster that you can't prevent.
> 
> You are left with only as much gear and food as you can carry. You have to leave your property. You have no gasoline or oil. Where do you go and what do you do to feed and supply yourself on the way?


If something happens that it permanently contaminates your land, you have to move, of course. If there is no place or no way to move, you are SOL.

Emergency supplies are not designed to last permanently...they are to help you over the worst until you can get something else going. You will need skills and ability to rebuild a life beyond your supplies. They should last you until you can harvest a crop to keep you going, if possible. You should learn the skills to live off the land or skills you can barter. If the emergency lasts only a few weeks and you have a few weeks of food, you are fine. But if life and society has permanently changed, you will need skills developed by the time the storage foods are exhausted.

Nothing is guaranteed, but the supplies give you time, that's all.

If you raid others in order to live, you will be stopped with bullets, and I would approve of that, because you are then no better than any other looter and don't deserve to live. And I would not want to live in the kind of world you create.


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## lanahi

Canadian said:


> Dunappy - I like the horses. Sounds like you're well situated. Wild food is awesome. I love the taste of deer meat. I have a friend who hunts and brings me some on occasion. I'd take fresh food over packaged any day of the week. Thanks for the input!


One has to take into consideration that game will be hunted out very soon by those in your same situation. Even now hunters don't always get their deer every season.
I recommend knowing wild food plants instead of relying only on wild game and fish. This gives you a more variety of food anyway and might well save your life.


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## lanahi

WakingUp said:


> Canadian,
> 
> Your words and position are warm and greatly appreciated.. but I have to wonder what Americans you have met. I've been an American all my life and I gotta tell you - the country you describe is only half the story. Yes - we have been hijacked. We've been hijacked by "the other half".
> 
> The people on this board and those describing their neighborly generosity are not representative of the people I know - and not even representative of the "survivalist" types I know here locally. Things in the cities have gotten to the point that everyone is angry all the time - it's all about taking care of #1 (in the most short-sighted, narrow minded sense of the term.)
> 
> If you gave this pole to the folks in my neighborhood, my office, the town as a whole - the results would be massively different. My biggest fear is widespread looting - within a matter of days of a breakdown in services. We all saw what happened during Katrina... I see what happens when we have hurricanes here. The only thing that brings order and relief is the National Guard. If they don't come (and they have been otherwise occupied for quite a while now) all hell breaks loose.
> 
> The area I live in has two kinds of threats in a situation like this: gangs and drug addicts who will stop at nothing to get their fix, and overfed, defenseless yuppies who are ripe pickings for the aforementioned. As luck would have it, I live among the overfed yuppies and as such am in the path of the storm. When SHTF, I will have to bug out b/c this area would be an "occupied zone".
> 
> My hope is to develop a network of folks in the sticks that can offer shelter in exchange for an extra back and hard working hands. That's the very best I could hope for. But I know that a lot of folks will be hoping for the same so it's gonna be a competitive proposition. It isn't looking good.
> 
> I am wide open for better ideas.


Learn skills that will help after a meltdown. With an important skill, you would be welcome anywhere.
Cities are home to a different species than small towns or rural areas. Most are good people with good values and hearts.
Maybe in New Orleans after Katrina, there was massive breakdown and looting, but look at the many who came to that city's aid and risked their lives to save others. There are both kinds of people in the world, you've seen mainly one kind. Other than jobs, I can't understand why anyone would want to live in a city.


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## sailaway

I've lived by the principle of "what goes around comes around." I am probably an over stuffed yuppie also, but I do go to weight watchers. I am also a member of a popular 12 step program for the recovery of alcohalism and the comment was made to me by somebody there that no matter how little I had I always got by quite nicely. 25 yrs ago all I had was 2 yrs. in jail hanging over my head, I have always been a producer and willing worker so I will always have food in my belly, cloths on my back and a roof over my head even though it might be my little tent.


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## OldFashionedMama

I voted to go into the wilderness. This is an option for my family, and we know enough about wild foods to do alright for a while. Burdock root makes a nice potato replacement and it is simply everywhere around here. Plenty of deer, squirrel, raccoon, and other small game to catch. In the event that S really really really HTF as in nuclear war and everything is contaminated...in that case I hope the blast is big enough to take out everyone and eliminate all the suffering that would follow such an event.


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## Ponce

Unable to post on poll because I am not there........food for 8-9 years, water for free and from a creek by gravity and seeds galore... wont go into what I have done but only that at this time I can survive for 25-30 years as long as I don't get killed.


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## Canadian

So lets say 25-30 years pass and you finally start to run out. How old would you be and then what would you do?


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## Practical Madman

I voted to go into the wilderness. I have my fair share of supplies...food, seeds, solar panels, inverters and batteries, and other items, but to me the most valuable item in my supplies is my bug out bag. I keep a hiking pack stocked with essentials, and included in those are 4 books on wild edibles. I have enough tools, salt, space blankets, rope, tarps, fishing line and hooks, snare wire, cooking pans, water bladders, water purification and filtering, and other items to keep me alive for quite a while, all packed into a 60 pound back pack. If anything drastic happens I will be able to abandon my other preps and grab this one bag, and disappear into the woods and feel confident that I can make it for a very long time.


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## endurance

Canadian said:


> So lets say 25-30 years pass and you finally start to run out. How old would you be and then what would you do?


I'm a realist. I'm dead. Without lipitor, subsisting on a very meat based diet, I won't see 20 years. I might not make it ten. I won't be alone. Most people won't last ten years without modern health care. I'm well prepped for a short term disaster. I'm better than most in a long term disaster with some remaining services. However, when it comes to TEOTWAWKI, I think most folks are fooling themselves if they think they'll live beyond their late 30s. Since the age of the Roman Empire the average life span has been 20-30 years. Fifty was old age as recently as the 1800s in much of the world. What makes you think that without modern technology you could outlast that lifespan? If things were to go to hell tomorrow (no refrigeration, no drugs, no transportation, no power), I'd guess the global population would be down to one billion or less in under 25 year and the average lifespan would be back to 30-ish years.


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## jafl

endurance said:


> I'm a realist. I'm dead. Without lipitor, subsisting on a very meat based diet, I won't see 20 years. I might not make it ten. I won't be alone. Most people won't last ten years without modern health care.


I've said as much in other places on this board. Most preppers/survivalists on the net cannot wait for something to happen to give them the excuse to separate themselves from the confines of society, grab their guns and run for the hills. These people are delusional about their own chances in an emergency situation and because of their anti-social tendencies they may very well pose a danger to the rest of us. Human beings cannot exist outside of human society because it is human nature for individuals, when left to their own devices, to sack, maim, pillage and destroy, lie, steal, cheat and kill. No individual human can be trusted to exercise his own natural rights without the restraint of society, religion or law because in the absence of such restraints no individual human can fully exercise his own rights without infringing on the rights of others. Human survival is dependent upon the survival of human society.



> Since the age of the Roman Empire the average life span has been 20-30 years. Fifty was old age as recently as the 1800s in much of the world.


Lifespan has a lot to do with genetics. I have traced some of my ancestry back to the 16th century. It wasn't unusual for my ancestors to live into their 70s or 80s as far back as 200 years ago.


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## Ponce

Hahahahhaha Canadian, I am 69 but my family members have a tendency to live to be 100 or more.......my dad is 97, uncles 99 and 94.......I never get sick but for the flu about once every five or six years, last time seven years ago..........I am shooting for 132 years, unless I die first hahahahahahah.


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## Canadian

Don't forget the seniors discount!


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## Badgerwon

*Martial Law*

The topic of "if supplies run out" is a good and necessary one.....BUT in that situation the "big Boys will declare martial law. When that happens they can take all food stores for redistibution, and anything else they want for the good of all. Our plans have to be covert and back-up plans have to be in place BEFORE this senario plays out.
55gal. drums, metal or PVC, with locking tops are good. These have to be stores inside a bldg. or buried in order to prevent condensation inside the drum.


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## Canadian

Would they seize food from individuals. Or would they take over farms and warehouses?


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## NaeKid

Canadian said:


> Would they seize food from individuals. Or would they take over farms and warehouses?


I would imagine that individuals that are not on their radar would be safe. If you rented out a huge warehouse and stuffed it full to the rafters with stuff - they might take notice.

Without putting on my tinfoil hat, I think that bank-cards are traceable transactions - and - if you are noticed spending thousands of dollars on supplies, you might be flagged if there isn't a corresponding business / charity associated with that card or your name.


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## endurance

I'm reading One Second After, a story about an EMP strike on the US, at the moment and there's an interesting option that might be very realistic that I hadn't thought of before. The town in the novel decides that they will seize food from semi's on the highway, stores, and warehouses, then exchange security for the farmers and ranchers for their harvests, and strike a compromise with people who have food stored. They issue ration cards that each family member can use for public food, however, in exchange for the ration card, you much make your home available for random inspections for hording and turn over any food you have on hand or risk having it seized and losing your ration card. It makes a lot of sense when you think about it. It prevents people from draining the system while they horde their own cache of food, but prevents any conflict with those who were smart enough to plan ahead. We can only hope that our community leaders will think so wisely when the time comes. I'm certainly going to be at the meeting to suggest it!

As for personal actions to mitigate the risk, I think there's too many advantages to caching food in multiple locations to list fully. First, what happens if your home burns down and 100% of your preps were in the home? Second, what happens if you must bug out (an earthquake collapses your home, forest fire, flood, chemical spill, invading army, radioactive fallout...) and you can only take what will fit in your car with you or you can't take anything more than what's on your back (EMP strike, roads are destroyed, traffic jams...)? What if the local law enforcement mixes you, a mellow survivalist with no evil plans, up with the Branch Dividians and they seize all your food and gear? You get my point. Having enough to survive 3-6 months inside your home is good, but having an additional cache at your brother's house that's two states away might make sense, too. Having a cache near your cabin on that fishing lake you visit every summer might be a good idea, too. Having a rented storage unit that's just down the street from that hotel that you stay at when the hurricanes come rolling in wouldn't be a bad idea either.

Options are always good.

As for the book, One Second After, I'm seven out of 11 CDs into it and I would definitely recommend it. It's on the same caliber to me as A World Made by Hand. It's well written, well researched, and there's a lot of thought provoking ideas in it that just might give you pause on your preconceived ideas about disaster. While the author is a bit more "zombie herd-ish" than I see things, the community responds in some very interesting ways to deal with the crisis, too.


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## Canadian

I'll always keep a secret stash.


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## Canadian

The thread revival worked out pretty well for one of my other threads so I thought I'd bump this one back up to the top for new members who have not had a chance to see it. It's another morality thread. Please cast your vote and let your opinion be known.

Peace!


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## Jason

I'm just starting to read this one. It'll probably take a couple days and I'll vote when I finish. I really like this idea, Canadian.


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## Justin Case

Good thread this. I voted for 'head into the wilderness' although living in the UK with 70 million others kind of restricts the options for hiding . 

Food prepping is relatively new here and the vast majority of the population never give the subject a seconds thought. I'm learning as much as I can about wild food foraging and already know how to make and set traps so I think I'd do better than some. Wildlife would disappear rapidly if the supermarket shelves emptied but edible plants are another matter,most people wouldn't recognise edible wild plants if they fell on them. 

My idea of wilderness would be bugging out on a quiet(ish) stretch of coast or even a boat where I would use gill nets/ fishing lines and forage the shoreline. If necessary I'd sail to a quieter country and try my luck there.


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## Canadian

I think it's very interesting that nobody has put in a vote for the "government safe zone." I guess we've seen too much of what happens when people take that option. UN safe zones in the third world are often the site of many human rights violations. We all know what happened at the superdome. A bug out boat would be a great option.


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## UncleJoe

I have a canoe!! :2thumb: 

Oh wait. I'm also 200 mi. from the ocean.


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## Von Helman

I mean leave us some options I mean if it all goes to hell in hand basket and everything is down and your supplies are confiscated, animals are dead and there is fall out then you are simply screwed and should just go ahead and dig your own grave. 

On the other hand if your supplies are confiscated or taken but the animals are still around at least I have my skills.


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## SurvivalNut

*Hoarding*



endurance said:


> They issue ration cards that each family member can use for public food, however, in exchange for the ration card, you much make your home available for random inspections for hording and turn over any food you have on hand or risk having it seized and losing your ration card. It makes a lot of sense when you think about it. It prevents people from draining the system while they horde their own cache of food, but prevents any conflict with those who were smart enough to plan ahead. We can only hope that our community leaders will think so wisely when the time comes. I'm certainly going to be at the meeting to suggest it!


Call me greedy, but I should be allowed to stand in line for any items I want or need that are being distributed, just like anyone else. Call it natural selection or whatever, but if I prep, then I have created my own likelihood to survive while the naysayers and scoffers waste their money I scrimp, save and put aside.

You darn well ain't raiding my henhouse or pickin' my apples or slaving off my solar power.

I don't begrudge people' s boats, fancy cars, ski weekends or vacations. If I choose to spend my wealth (or poverty) putting aside for the future, without any assistance, then that "new wealth" as it becomes in the event day is not hoarding and my use of it is non-negotiable as far as I came by it in honesty and personal sweat.

Anti-trust laws for preppers?

It is an honorable thought, but why reward failed planning even further(hmmm...). Yes, I volunteer and tithe a full 10%. I also give generously as I can to local charities.

But SHTF means hands off brother. I will continue giving so long as it is voluntary and take in those I can care for, but I expect the same freedom as everyone else, not being excluded for being smart.

A new crime?

Yeah, government could do that right too.


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## Canadian

Yeah, I think a horde should be property of the person who hordes it. Confiscation is a very real threat. Right now in Toronto the police are going door to door using the old gun registry to get addresses and confiscating people's guns. One guy lost 52 guns and has been made out to be a criminal simply because his registration card expired. First guns. You know your gold and other valuables are next.


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## sforgays

Canadian said:


> I keep my gas tank full but my car will only go about 500 km on a full tank. If things go real bad there's no guarantee that I'll even be able to find gasoline.


Does anyone know how the storage system at a gas station works? I have always assumed I could open a ground tank and siphon fuel with some sort of hand held pump. I don't want to assume anymore and would like to know.


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## bunkerbob

I believe any mechanical or electric fuel pump would work if you can get a hose down into the tank, they are not buried that deep. If not you could do what these guys did...Retrofitted truck used to steal diesel fuel from gas station :ignore:


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## Country Living

I delineate between "hoarding" and "stockpiling". If I go to the store and buy all the matches and tomorrow the store re-stocks them, that's stockpiling. If I buy all the matches knowing they won't be restocked for some time - that's hoarding. It's a fine line; but, there is a difference.

As to the poll question - we have water on the ranch along with wild berries, fish in our spring-fed lake, deer, wild hogs, rabbits, etc. running wild on the ranch. All it takes is a trap or a shot. We would share larger kills with two of the neighbors. They would do the same for us. I personally draw the line at squirrel meat. OK - and pocket gophers. And rats. Rodents in general. It would never cross our minds to rely on the government for assistance unless something catastrophic happened where we had no other choice. <shudder>

My grandparents had a farm during the depression. They were poor when it came to material goods; but, the family never went hungry. The farmers shared with other farmers and also took produce and meat to the people in town.

People with land have the advantage because there are so many natural resources available to them if they live in an area with water and wild life.


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## HillbillyWoman

First off, let me say I voted to "Ask, beg or barter from other survivors."

Second, this thread has been most enlightening, and it warms my heart to read how civil this forum is.

Thirdly, I completely agree that: 1) being in a group/team greatly enhances the chances of survive and thrive; 2) having plans to survive in place, an alternate location and/or caches at other locations improves the chances of the same 'survive and thrive' mentality; 3) psychological preparedness is just as important as 'prepping', IMHO. That psychological preparedness may well keep us from spiralling down into unethical, survive-at-all-costs animals if the S should ever HTF.

Lastly, I am thunder-struck about the post from Toronto about the confiscation of a private gun collection. God save North America.


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## Icbones

Canadian said:


> Speaking of vegans...
> 
> How's this for funny. I took my wife's sister to the gun club the other day. She's a left wing militant vegan animal rights activist. Now her mom who is a left wing pacifist crystal and petuli toting new ager wants to come along the next time we go. Nobody ever though they'd see her doing this...
> 
> She's told all of her vegan left wing anti-fur new age hippy friends and to her surprise... They are all incredibly impressed. They all think it's totally cool and are very jealous of her. She even posted a photo album on facebook so her friends could see the pics. I think we're a little ways of from taking her hunting... So we'll have to work up to that.
> 
> In the meantime I like to think I've planted a few seeds of doubt in the militant left wing vegan community.
> 
> .


I myself have taken a couple of friends to my pistol range(~35). Considering that number of Canadian politicians that think only the police and military should have guns, I'm sure these liberal politicians would be shocked at the number of people(women also) that enjoyed shooting a pistol (Glock .40 and S&W .44mag) and wanted to go again.


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## Icbones

Canadian said:


> Yeah, I think a horde should be property of the person who hordes it. Confiscation is a very real threat. Right now in Toronto the police are going door to door using the old gun registry to get addresses and confiscating people's guns. One guy lost 52 guns and has been made out to be a criminal simply because his registration card expired. First guns. You know your gold and other valuables are next.


The explosives division Branch of the Ministry of natural resources tried to put in place regulations that would have outlawed hand loading ammunition. It was only mass letter writing and pressure from shooting organizations that stopped the Canadian governments constant attack on firearm owners from succeeding.

Another thing that has become popular with Canadian politicians is the implementation of reverse onus laws regarding guns, traffic offenses and domestic issues. Food stockpiles could easily be discovered by municipal fire departments initiating "safety" inspections. These stockpiles could be at risk if in their opinion they represented a fire risk.


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## Expeditioner

While I prefer some of the more "civil" options I voted do whatever it takes. Depends on the situation. If there is one thing I have learned its that survival situations are fluid.


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## Icbones

endurance said:


> If I call 911 for a kitchen fire and the fire department reports that I have suspicious items in my kitchen like a food dehydrator, grain mill, wheat, and a solar freezer, I don't want to have to explain when the cops come back to talk to me and they find that I have a year's worth of food, fuel and ammunition. Even if it's legal, it makes the papers and that makes me a target of both ridicule and crime.


Endurance has a good point. Something similar happened to a man I Whitby several years ago. During a house fire the fire department afterward discovered ammunition and reloading equipment. The media reported that their was "suspicious" objects in the remains. In later stories those "suspicious" objects became referred to as "bomb making equipment". That case went on for years and at one point Durham police even tried to frame the wife for arson.


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## TechAdmin

Expeditioner said:


> While I prefer some of the more "civil" options I voted do whatever it takes. Depends on the situation. If there is one thing I have learned its that survival situations are fluid.


I have a wife and kid to worry about. I'm with you on this. Exhaust all civil options before moving into those that are uncivilized


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## Vertigo

SurvivalNut said:


> Call me greedy, but I should be allowed to stand in line for any items I want or need that are being distributed, just like anyone else. Call it natural selection or whatever, but if I prep, then I have created my own likelihood to survive while the naysayers and scoffers waste their money I scrimp, save and put aside.
> 
> You darn well ain't raiding my henhouse or pickin' my apples or slaving off my solar power.
> 
> I don't begrudge people' s boats, fancy cars, ski weekends or vacations. If I choose to spend my wealth (or poverty) putting aside for the future, without any assistance, then that "new wealth" as it becomes in the event day is not hoarding and my use of it is non-negotiable as far as I came by it in honesty and personal sweat.
> 
> Anti-trust laws for preppers?
> 
> It is an honorable thought, but why reward failed planning even further(hmmm...). Yes, I volunteer and tithe a full 10%. I also give generously as I can to local charities.
> 
> But SHTF means hands off brother. I will continue giving so long as it is voluntary and take in those I can care for, but I expect the same freedom as everyone else, not being excluded for being smart.
> 
> A new crime?
> 
> Yeah, government could do that right too.


+1 Amen to to that.

First working your ass off to have something for your future and then being made to share it with everyone else is called communism and I will not let such a foolish system rule over me.

V.


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## Andrew1

*Good to start learning how to store food, etc.*

We've been learning to store food via canning, dehydration, and in air tight buckets. It's been rewarding. Also learning to grow our own food. I think these are skills that will pay off in the coming days.


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## TechAdmin

That they will. What do you have stored up?


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## zorro

For me, there are two kinds of scenarios: 

1) Only "luxury" is no longer available - if well prepared, your supplies will last. For example, no more public services (electricity, gas, water, banking, stores, hospitals, etc). Then I can survive in my house for quite a long time because we do gardening and small animal raising already and we get our water from our well anyways. The most probable events in this category in our area are: heavy snowstorm and bad earthquake. 

2) Civilization is down - your supplies won't last and can't be replenished. This is the atomic bomb, major flood (I mean the kind they talk about in the Bible and other religious/historical chronicles), huge meteor, war, etc... situation. In this case, and supposing that our immediate area is not ground zero, then the worst danger are people trying to invade our area. This, I'm not prepared for and will not prepare for. I prefer going into the wild (I do have a plan for that) instead of trying to stay at home and shoot invaders. 

I do think if scenario 2 happens there will be at first really bad times (some people will be desperate for supplies and ready to do anything). Population will drop a lot and then as equilibrium is back to a population level the modified environment can handle the good side of humans will show again. Thus, you need to be able to survive the first stage (lets say a few months) and also to be able to re-build. Skills and some basic tools (or knowing how to make them) are really all that's needed in this scenario - along with a lot of luck. And I too think in this scenario life expectancy would be really short, so don't forget to have some fun surviving


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## kbamvakais

I dont car what anyone says or if this pisses someone off, but if worst comes to worst i already have a plans to keep myself and my family alive and safe, weither that be having to run my eagle through the doors of the nearest walmat or beg borrow and steal, my family comes first above all others


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## UncleJoe

kbamvakais said:


> I dont car what anyone says or if this pisses someone off, but if worst comes to worst i already have a plans to keep myself and my family alive and safe, weither that be having to run my eagle through the doors of the nearest walmat or beg borrow and steal, my family comes first above all others


Something you will want to keep in mind; if it comes down to a complete breakdown of law and order, everyone who is not prepared and has nothing to lose is going to have the same idea. This is the mindset that starts the lawlessness ball rolling. While the drive and desire to keep you and yours clothed, fed, and safe is admirable, unless you have a platoon to back you up, you probably won't survive very long. 
Anyone that tries to steal, or run their "eagle" through me humble abode to take what I have worked for years to put together will be shot. To some this may sound radical, but you can't rebuild a society by destroying what little remnants of civilized life may be left.


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## bunkerbob

I wouldn't mind seeing someone try to run their 'Eagle' into the side of my house. I think I know what or who will win, remember the house is ICF block with a reinforced concrete core. But, I don't think they will make it that far, unless they are in a fully armored vehicle. 
Speaking of that where are those photos kbamvakais of your doomsday vehicle.


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## kbamvakais

i never said i would take from someone else, and pics coming soon


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## Dragon1900

A mountain bike each, two trailers for the bikes, a tent, bug out kit, hunting and fishing supplies and wilderness to the near north of us. We'd survive.


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## jjwilson72000

We are in a situation where we live in a town of 300 people, but we are pretty far removed from anyone else.
Unfortunately I do not think my town would "pull together" for the greater good. The majority of my neighbors have decided tv's, cars, clothes, etc. are more important things to stockpile than food or supplies. We have stored a large amount of provisions and have rabbits and chickens and a garden.
I would probably have to shoot some of my neighbors when they started starving and trying to loot me. I wouldn't have a problem doing that. If we became unable to be self reliant I'm not sure what we would do. Probably whatever we have to, I would like to think we would always take the high road, but I am not going to let my family starve because of ideals.


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## MomBomb

*What if we run out of supplies?*

I would hope that I have the presence of mind to track my supply/use ratio and plant seeds, ( Previously stashed) and hunt (smoke or salt it):gaah:


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## Rognvald

Watched a program on the history channel about just what would happen if this case scenario played out. Frightening. Everyone for themselves and whatever it takes to get what they need. Life has ceased to have meaning except their own. After all, Man is an animal. Civilization ceases to have meaning when it is survival at all costs.


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## Geistmacher

*Supplies have run out - Food for thought*

Humans did not come onto the earth with tools in hand. We created them from the labor of our hands, and the resources available and in agreement with others. A sharpened stick will get you animals. Animals will get you clothing and shoes and food and tools. Tools will get you better tools and better weapons and shelter. Knowledge and wisdom and skill and cooperation, is essential to survival.

That said:

A good quality strong knife is a great convenience. After that, a weapon with range and enough ammo to feed it is a very nice tool to have.

Fixed fortifications are monuments to stupidity. In a siege time is on the attacker's side. They have resupply, you will not. Given enough time, the mightiest fort will fall to the determined attacker. On the other hand, forts will give protection against the roving mobs that have no resupply or organization. One must weigh his equipment against the risks.

First is to understand what you are facing in a total collapse of civilization. Scenario:
It is 11:30 Tuesday morning. You have slept in, having had a long tiring day at work the day before. You turn on the television and change to Fox News. You are shocked into full awake. The broadcaster is talking about a nuclear bomb that has detonated in Omaha. The carnage is beyond anything you have known. Hundreds of thousands are feared dead. As he talks, video of the blast and the devastated area come in. The broadcaster continues, talking about the previous bomb that had detonated four hours earlier in Houston. It begins to sink in, that the terrorists had struck. You realize that they are not through. The news man tells you that AL-Queda had taken credit for the strike, and has threatened four more bombs within the next 48 hours. It begins. Katrina on a national scale.

The city of Shreveport:
A scene starts to unfold across the city. Approximately 70% of all the citizens of Shreveport are packing their vehicles in preparation to leave for the country side. They fear the next bomb will be in their city. They have a half tank of fuel. There is not time to fill the tank. The lines at the gas stations are impossibly long. As the city empties out of people, those that remain start to loot the stores for everything of value, all foods, all water, all medication and of course tennis shoes and television sets.

In the rural areas:
As in the country side the cars run out of gasoline. The people start to realize that there is no food or water. There is a ring forming along the highways, about 50 miles wide and concentrated at 300 miles around each city. Many of these people become desperate, looting everything they can find for food and water. They are on foot. It is cold and wet, raining every day for the last week. Exposure is a real threat to them, and clean water is scarce. Do you share your resources? Will you live without the things you share? How will you choose who will get your help. Can you cut them off when the time comes?

The government:
Caught by surprise the government starts to set up blockades around the cities. They must prevent a humanitarian disaster. They call out the national guard and the police put a curfew in place. To make their job easier, everyone is being searched for weapons and disarmed. All hoarded food and water and gasoline is seized. No one is allowed to travel. All roads are shut down and guarded. Money has become worthless.

You live in a small community 70 miles from Shreveport. You keep your gas tank full. You have several vehicles to choose from. You hunt and know the rural areas around your residence. Suddenly the ground shakes, a vertical earthquake. It feels like the ground drops and then slams into your feet. A few minutes later, a rolling thunder sweeps over you, felt more than heard. Windows break, trees drop limbs on your roof. You step outside. In the south and west you see a rising ball of white, orange, blue and purple gas, a mile across. The small city of Minden has been hit. You check the wind and find that the cloud is not going to be coming your way. You realize that many people will be coming your way. They will be soon hungry, thirsty, cold and desperate. You get your food from Brookshires? Their warehouse is in Dallas Texas. The Cannery is in Decatur Illinois. The Farms are in Iowa. How will that farmer's food get to you?

What do you do?

Can you sit tight and defend your place? How long? Do you go to work? How long before food and water run out? How fast can you put together your supplies for a long term survival situation? How long before a few well armed people out flank you and take you out? At some point you will have to travel. Can you travel by motor vehicle? Can you travel by motorcycle? Can you travel by aircraft? Do you have to travel on foot? Where will you go? Do you know of a safe place? Can you carry your stuff? You should have five people that you can trust to maintain security. You will you trust to join you? How far can you travel per day and still provide food and water? Do you want to be seen by other people? Will they rob you? Will you have to fight? Do you want to call for help to the government? Can you take a life? Will you take a life?

Remember:
Avoid fighting and human contact at all costs. Even if you are a Rambo, any fight can result in an injury that is life threatening or crippling even if you win. Fighting will bring attention to you. If the enemy is in range, so are you. Any infection can life threatening. Fighting can deplete ammo, and damage weapons and equipment. Avoid fixed locations of habitation. You will leave trails that will be found. This will lead the desperate to you. The government is not there to help you as much as they are to control you. It is not in their interest to leave you armed and self sufficient. At some point order will be restored. You can at that time choose to come in from the cold. Expect that the order may not be the same as you left. The government and the people may have changed for the better or the worse.

My opinion for what it is worth.

Geist


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## BillM

*I'm reminded*



NaeKid said:


> I hike. I cycle. I x-country ski. I snow shoe. I roller-blade.
> 
> The worst that would happen is I get too much exercise, barely enough water or food .. and I head 800km west or north. I have places that I can go and live. I would prefer to drive - but - I can do it. I have done it.
> 
> My dad for his 55th birthday rode his bicycle 775km to see a concert (that was ~5 years ago). In 1988 my dad rode 1100km to pick me up from school .. and that trip only took him 2 weeks.
> 
> It took me just under 2 weeks to cycle my way 650km - easy riding over mountains and taking in the sights (vacation). If I had to be somewhere, I would not stop till I absolutly had to. I have x-country ski-tour'd at 8+ hours per day before setting up camp - and then continue again the next day. In two weeks we completed just under 200km of ski-trails. No - its not fast, but - again, I have done it


I'm reminded of the story about the man who was waiting for a bus and saw two elderly men playing tennis on a court next to the bus stop.

After watching an entire , very vigerous match between them , he aproached them and asked how old they were.

The younger of them said , "we are brothers and I am 75 and my brother is 85 ."

The man then complimented them on being in such good shape and the younger of the two said, "Ohh that's nothing dad is 105 years old and he still beats us both ."

"Where is your dad now", the man asked ?

"He was not able to play this weekend because he is getting married", said the younger brother .

The astonished man then asked, " Do you mean he is 105 years old and still wants to get married?"

"I didn't say he wanted to", said the younger brother ! :2thumb:


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## gypsysue

BillM,  Love the story!

Geistmacher, I was enthralled reading your post. It would make an awesome book/movie. I could even see the indecision carefully threaded through the story, and even better yet, maybe written in the style of the "Choose your own Adventure" books, where the paths split depending on your choice. It made me feel like I was there, having to decide what I would do, and looking at the options, and really... none were good. It won't be a lark if TSHTF.


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## JayJay

This topic weighs heavily on my soul.
It reminds me of a movie and a comment from another forum.
The movie is Sophie's Choice, with a mother standing in line to be put on a train for the camps..she is 'made' to relinquish one of her two children by the guard. She gives the young girl and keeps the young, fair-haired boy, knowing he will be protected and not put in a slave camp or worse as the girl would have been--it eats away for years what she did and ...you know the rest; an alcoholic and later suicide.
The other subject is a mother in a third world country which tries to feed the starving population by meting out only small portions; the mother has 7 children; without sufficient food for all, she feeds the few while the others watch.
I have rice, transferred from the big bags to ziploks, and back to 2 liters.
I don't know what any of us will do---but as dh tells me every week or so--I'd probably starve before I let a child die.
And then comes the real questions; where do we stop?? Who do we choose to feed?? What happens when those we feed bring hundreds of others??
Are we merely prolonging the eventual 'demise' of those not prepared??
How long will this disaster last??

God help me..is what I pray.


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## Ponce

I am where I will stay........38 miles from a main highway and 6.5 miles from a Micky Mouse one mule of a town.....at my age I don't have time to be running around.....only of shooting around.........KEEP OUT.


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## BridenSolutions

I ponder this situation every day. A few months back I met with someone who's attitude towards the future unknown completely impressed me. 

"We are going to survive, its going to be an adventure, a fun adventure! And we want to be around to help start the world again after..."

I had never before considered surviving TEOTWAWKI to be a fun adventure, but that comment has changed my attitude. And now with every encounter I have on this topic I try to remind people that no matter what - stay positive. My thoughts now are that when I am placed in the 'survive at all costs' scenario, I'm going to consider it an adventure, and I believe the positive attitude is a very powerful survival weapon all in its own.


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## Bushwhacker733

*Staying put!*

There are farm ponds all over my area, plenty of wildlife and my garden. We might lose a few pounds but are well stocked around our "middles" so we should last twelve months just on fat  
I also have a shallow 30 ft well that you can get water from with the old fashioned bucket and rope method...


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## HozayBuck

BridenSolutions said:


> I ponder this situation every day. A few months back I met with someone who's attitude towards the future unknown completely impressed me.
> 
> "We are going to survive, its going to be an adventure, a fun adventure! And we want to be around to help start the world again after..."
> 
> I had never before considered surviving TEOTWAWKI to be a fun adventure, but that comment has changed my attitude. And now with every encounter I have on this topic I try to remind people that no matter what - stay positive. My thoughts now are that when I am placed in the 'survive at all costs' scenario, I'm going to consider it an adventure, and I believe the positive attitude is a very powerful survival weapon all in its own.


*I've had this same thought for years but frankly I've never had the Cajonies to say it out loud.. will it be fun? no, dangerous? hell yes.. invigorating Oh hell yes! in some ways it's like God said..OK time out!! lets start over and try to get it right this time... many will die, many won't.. those who live will have that chance to rebuild and get it right... It may be worth the trip... *


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## musketjim

Bug in until supplies run out or if I can read the signs soon enough and miss martial law get to my cabin where I'm set up for living off the grid. I'm always working on improving the cabin. I also work hard at improving the soil for gardens. All this is a slow process by hand but keeps me in shape. Like Naekid I ski, hike, snowshoe and bike. It'll be brutal here in Alaska -40 or so but I won't have to worry about e-mail or work just survival.

Take care of your neighbor now you might have to eat him later.


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## JayJay

I ..do ..not..believe...you....said...that..

I have been buying and storing food for 3 years...about every week...so, you can guess how much I have---I am NOT eating neighbors...


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## SageAdvicefarmgirl

BridenSolutions said:


> I ponder this situation every day. A few months back I met with someone who's attitude towards the future unknown completely impressed me.
> 
> "We are going to survive, its going to be an adventure, a fun adventure! And we want to be around to help start the world again after..."
> 
> I had never before considered surviving TEOTWAWKI to be a fun adventure, but that comment has changed my attitude. And now with every encounter I have on this topic I try to remind people that no matter what - stay positive. My thoughts now are that when I am placed in the 'survive at all costs' scenario, I'm going to consider it an adventure, and I believe the positive attitude is a very powerful survival weapon all in its own.


GREAT POST! As a Christian, I am fully aware that whatever comes, it does not surprise our Maker. He has a plan, and as long as we are looking to Him for provision, and doing what we are led by His Spirit to do to be prepared, the Provision will be there!

Life IS an ADVENTURE, and being mentally (and, I believe, spiritually) prepared is the best preparation of all. No matter what comes, there will be choices to make, do the right thing and move forward. See "my rendition" of Psalm 23, below...In my opinion, that says it all!


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## lefty

SageAdvicefarmgirl said:


> GREAT POST! As a Christian, I am fully aware that whatever comes, it does not surprise our Maker. He has a plan, and as long as we are looking to Him for provision, and doing what we are led by His Spirit to do to be prepared, the Provision will be there!
> 
> Life IS an ADVENTURE, and being mentally (and, I believe, spiritually) prepared is the best preparation of all. No matter what comes, there will be choices to make, do the right thing and move forward. See "my rendition" of Psalm 23, below...In my opinion, that says it all!


being prepared is way more than having a stockpile of logistics. just as there are many parts of planning logisticlly there are IMO more than logistics to being prepared. There is mental and spiritual preperation as. In addition to preparing logistically we need to prepare our minds to think our hearts for God and our bodies to act.

Here are I feel two important things to remember about God as it relates to the SHTF event.

first God is an old man and he does not wear a watch. and second he will never gives us anything we can not handle, the problem is he usually has a much higher opnion of our tolerance level than we do.


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## AlabamaGal

Supplies are a short term solution and are great for a natural disaster or disruption. (Like what would happen to this state for several months if the New Madrid fault line cut loose.) 

If you aren't working to have yourself, your neighborhood and your town more food and essentials self-sufficient, I hope you don't believe in the kind of catatrophic TEOTWAWKI events that are so often used as the worst case scenario around here. Because eventually stockpiles of supplies will run out, whether they be in your basement or your local businesses, and then what? You think that "instant farm" can of survival seeds is going to save you?

Actually, even if you don't, I hope you are working towards local and regional sustainability in whatever way you can.


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## UncleJoe

AlabamaGal said:


> You think that "instant farm" can of survival seeds is going to save you?


 We did a little experiment last year that confirms the fact that a can of survival seeds may not be your best option. If you haven't seen it, follow the link and read about the process and the results.

http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/groups/seed-project/


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## AlabamaGal

UncleJoe said:


> We did a little experiment last year that confirms the fact that a can of survival seeds may not be your best option. If you haven't seen it, follow the link and read about the process and the results.
> 
> http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/groups/seed-project/


I'm shocked; shocked I tell you!

Seriously, it's great that ya'll did that project. Besides the issues of regional & local suitability of various plant varieties, very few seeds 30 years old will sprout no matter how stored. Heck, not many seeds over 5 years will sprout, and I'm going to guess what went into that can in the first place wasn't particularly high quality.

Just 'cause a "preparedness" company sells something doesn't mean it's safe, effective, well-made or even has a point at all beside transferring some of your cash to their pockets.


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## Emerald

AlabamaGal said:


> I'm shocked; shocked I tell you!
> 
> Seriously, it's great that ya'll did that project. Besides the issues of regional & local suitability of various plant varieties, very few seeds 30 years old will sprout no matter how stored. Heck, not many seeds over 5 years will sprout, and I'm going to guess what went into that can in the first place wasn't particularly high quality.
> 
> Just 'cause a "preparedness" company sells something doesn't mean it's safe, effective, well-made or even has a point at all beside transferring some of your cash to their pockets.


I gotta say that I have been growing things for many many many years and worked in a greenhouse along the way and I could not get one of those seeds to germ for me.. I felt soo bad that they did not...
I am an heirloom/open pollinated veggie gardener and have a nice stash of veggies that grow out in rounds so that all my seeds are fresh at least every three years if not every year. I know how to save them properly and to keep them as pure as possible.. I have enuf to do trades with neighbors and hopefully be able to teach as many of the neighbors as possible on the easy/pest free/chemical free ways to garden in barter for their skills.
I am this >< close to talking hubby into the deep well hand pump for our back well.
I have stocked up many of the things that would really help when the SHTF like salt.. I can truly see salt coming back as currency as it is so helpful to preserving meats. I already have enuf to keep our family till the salt mines under Detroit become useful and the trading routes open again.

As for the poll.. I can't answer that at this time.. I know what my limits are when my life is threatened.. I've been there.. I'm still here.. I know I can do what it takes.. but am I willing to say for sure what I will do if I have to? not really. I probably will do pretty much what it takes..short of killing another person to take their stuff. I may kill to protect mine.. but not sure I can kill someone just to take what they have.. :dunno: I know too many ways to find and too many things that are wild and can be eaten to be pushed that far. but you never know.


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## SageAdvicefarmgirl

SageAdvicefarmgirl said:


> GREAT POST! As a Christian, I am fully aware that whatever comes, it does not surprise our Maker. He has a plan, and as long as we are looking to Him for provision, and doing what we are led by His Spirit to do to be prepared, the Provision will be there!
> 
> Life IS an ADVENTURE, and being mentally (and, I believe, spiritually) prepared is the best preparation of all. No matter what comes, there will be choices to make, do the right thing and move forward. See "my rendition" of Psalm 23, below...In my opinion, that says it all!


I did not answer the poll, either...MY ANSWER would be that I will trust in the guidance of the Lord who is my shepherd! I am prepared to follow Him til He leads me home!


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## gypsysue

Supplies... Everyone will run out at different times. That could be a good thing or a bad thing. However, if my neighbor runs out of food before we do and is willing to let us help them start a garden, we'll share seeds and plants (berry bushes, etc.) with them. Hopefully this can get started before they actually run out. Then we'd have to decide whether and how much food to share to keep them going until harvest. I think as soon as TSHTF I would be seriously canvassing the area to see that everyone has a plan for perpetuating their food supply. Anyone not gardening will be leaned on to do so. We have large game animals and lakes in the area, but it would take more than lean wild meat to stay healthy. 

Even if we have less than a year's worth of food and supplies we can start right away to make sure we don't run out, by increasing our garden efforts, foraging, and conserving what we have, if TSHTF.


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## GailP

I'm starting this year's balcony garden tomorrow...my gardens never turn out well..but I'm trying. I understand the importance of it I just hope I can start succeeding.


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## stillmaticb33

if I'm starving, I'm looting anything and anyone... If you think thats barbaric or ignorant, then go ALL day tomorrow without eating or drinking water and see how you feel when you wake up the following day. You'll be ready to do whatever. This is the idea that drives me to continue to prep for me and my family as well as stack resources to protect myself from those that do not prep


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## Homegrowngirl

The national forest surrounds me, the river is across the highway from my house, and there are 2 lakes within 7 miles of my house. Not to mention numerous creeks and streams. We have wild huckleberries, a variety of wild mushrooms, hazelnuts and cattails up the wazzu. My seed cache is growing so I will have enough to last for quite a few years. I don't worry to much about running out of stuff, I do believe that it will be an adjustment to have less, but I also think that by then we will be used to it and grateful for whatever we do recieve.


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## musketjim

I'm working on increasing my heirloom seed supply as well as transplanting some perennial fruit plants to my BOL. I give the gift of food to friends and relatives for holidays to help them, as well as myself when they show up at my door. I'm always learning usage and preparation of local plants, except mushrooms, a bit complex. I also work on hunting trapping and fishing, I can always learn more about those skills.


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## Londoner

IMO everything and everywhere will get looted very quickly and very aggressively because there will be no other source of food for the non prep-ed.
That is the biggest single danger for the prepped, the possibility of becoming a target for the desperate. I think a lot of people have a very idealistic outlook on all this reading some of the posts, they need to become a lot more cynical.


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## EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER

In situations its better to be a survivalist than a prepper........ I dont mean any offense.

In situations like that, its better to be a survivalist than a prepper....... I dont mean any offense.

Of coarse, for while after the SHTF, if you dont know what you're doing, preppers are waaaaay more comfortable.



cnsper said:


> I think that you are taking it to the extreme placing labels on preppers/survivalists. Are you saying that because you know what you are doing, you are going to be more comfortable than a prepper? Yeah maybe you can go into the woods and survive for a week. Just about anyone could. How old are you? From the tone of your posts you are quite young it seems. That cockiness in a SHTF situation will get you killed.
> 
> But with a SHTF scenario, everyone becomes a survivalist, a prepper and a homesteader all at the same time. Even the old mountain men dried meat for their trips, that made them preppers along with survivalists. Now they were not homesteaders except in the winter months but then again there they were, a homesteader.
> 
> The ones that survive, just like the old west, are going to be the quiet and strong type, not the braggarts. They were usually the first ones people got tired of and shot.
> 
> Think back to the old west and what those settlers/preppers/survivalists/homesteaders had to deal with like indian raids or outlaws. A lot more outlaws and indians died than homesteaders.
> 
> I think that there will be more surprises with today's prepper/homesteader than even you will admit.


1st of all: what i see, what ive been told, and what alot of other ppl see as a prepper is some one who saves up food and stuff to wait it out in one location. A survivalist is some one who live off the land and live a primitive lifestyle if need be.
And what i meant is i can and will live just as comfortably as a prepper because i know what im doing! I grew up living a survivalist lifestyle! My dad was in the infantry and taught me everything he learned! Ive gone to multiple survival schools and passed with flying colors. And i do Search and rescue with the airforce so ive had ALOT of training with that. And all i read is survival books to see if theres anything i dont know.... and im 17 fyi!

And im not bragging at all! About anything! Im just trying to help ppl out! ive been reading these forums for a while and havent made an account until today! So STFU! Cuz you dont even know me, and i might seem cocky but im not. AT ALL

And knowledge and experience has nothing to do with age, it has to do with how active you are! While other kids were having fun playing or partying i was having fun learning new survival techniques


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## cnsper

I think that you are taking it to the extreme placing labels on preppers/survivalists. Are you saying that because you know what you are doing, you are going to be more comfortable than a prepper? Yeah maybe you can go into the woods and survive for a week. Just about anyone could. How old are you? From the tone of your posts you are quite young it seems. That cockiness in a SHTF situation will get you killed.

But with a SHTF scenario, everyone becomes a survivalist, a prepper and a homesteader all at the same time. Even the old mountain men dried meat for their trips, that made them preppers along with survivalists. Now they were not homesteaders except in the winter months but then again there they were, a homesteader.

The ones that survive, just like the old west, are going to be the quiet and strong type, not the braggarts. They were usually the first ones people got tired of and shot.

Think back to the old west and what those settlers/preppers/survivalists/homesteaders had to deal with like indian raids or outlaws. A lot more outlaws and indians died than homesteaders.

I think that there will be more surprises with today's prepper/homesteader than even you will admit.


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## pandamonium

I imagine I will do whatever it takes. I'll eat bug shit and chew on bark. As I have said before, the goal is to survive, trying to take something that is already in someones possession is a good way to get dead. Scavenging will be the answer, AFTER, the target location has been thoroughly scouted.

I hope that if it does go down and bugging out is required, that with what I have stored, which will go with me, I will be able to supplement my stores with what I can hunt, fish for, trap and forage for. I figure right now I could go three months. IN three months, I should be good for five months bugged out. Hopefully.


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## EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER

pandamonium said:


> I imagine I will do whatever it takes. I'll eat bug shit and chew on bark. As I have said before, the goal is to survive, trying to take something that is already in someones possession is a good way to get dead. Scavenging will be the answer, AFTER, the target location has been thoroughly scouted.
> 
> I hope that if it does go down and bugging out is required, that with what I have stored, which will go with me, I will be able to supplement my stores with what I can hunt, fish for, trap and forage for. I figure right now I could go three months. IN three months, I should be good for five months bugged out. Hopefully.


Exactly what ive been trying to explain to ppl but apparently it makes me sounds 'cocky'


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## pandamonium

EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER said:


> Exactly what ive been trying to explain to ppl but apparently it makes me sounds 'cocky'


Lad, it aint always WHAT your sayin, just HOW you're sayin it!!


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## EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER

pandamonium said:


> Lad, it aint always WHAT your sayin, just HOW you're sayin it!!


Well, i thinks its because ive been reading these threads for a while, and ive always wanted to comment on them, but i just made my account to day and commented on all the threads that i wanted to so...... I guess i kinda bombarded the forum all at one time..... Thats probably why...


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## Dakine

Canadian said:


> The dog team sounds great. People in my area only have what we call "condo sized" dogs. You'd probably need about fifty of them to pull a sled. I've always wondered what people would do with their "pets" in a food shortage? I'm sure you don't think of horses or dogs as pets like city folk do. Your animals are good for more than just companionship. City animals have no practical use. I always wondered if people would just turn their dogs loose on the city streets?


I disagree. my dog has better ears and nose then I do, so I prep 7 months of food for her, and my cat was very skilled in hunting for survival until I turned her into an indoor cat, but she'll still have her paws full working around the house when all of the pests and rodents we manage with technology are suddenly in a world with no predation. (stray cats and dogs will be dinner for refugees on the move from one meal to another)

The first 3 months will probably be the worst. In an ideal situation I would be somewhere I could ride it out and let the worst be somewhere else, in reality, if it comes to pass, its going to be zombie day big time and nobody wants that.


----------



## Dakine

EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER said:


> And im not bragging at all! About anything! Im just trying to help ppl out! ive been reading these forums for a while and havent made an account until today! So STFU! Cuz you dont even know me, and i might seem cocky but im not. AT ALL


You're in an interesting position. The world is changing around you, and not for the better. And those decisions were made before even my generation. They've simply been perpetuated and the people have been told it's not really that bad... however the fact does remain that we're currently 16T in debt and our deficit continues to increase every year due to entitlements... eventually we're going to come to some very nasty crossroads.

It's good that your father has trained you in survival and that you're active in exercises which will help you survive a collapse when/if it happens.

You will learn over time, that there's more value in words people will listen to than those delivered in a tone or manner they will not.

Don't take it personally, I joined the Marines when I was 17 and I've just about gotten that "I'll be an ******* if I want to be as long as I think I'm right" mentality burned out. It only took about 20 years, but hey, who's counting


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## bunkerbob

EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER said:


> 1st of all: what i see, what ive been told, and what alot of other ppl see as a prepper is some one who saves up food and stuff to wait it out in one location. A survivalist is some one who live off the land and live a primitive lifestyle if need be.
> And what i meant is i can and will live just as comfortably as a prepper because i know what im doing! I grew up living a survivalist lifestyle! My dad was in the infantry and taught me everything he learned! Ive gone to multiple survival schools and passed with flying colors. And i do Search and rescue with the airforce so ive had ALOT of training with that. And all i read is survival books to see if theres anything i dont know.... and im 17 fyi!


* Sounds like you have had alot of good survival training from your dad and schools. *
*But I believe to really survive you must become a renaissance man, read more than survival books, read history, the Constitution, learn math, cooking, canning and crafts such as blacksmithing, leather working, electronics, sewing, yes even sewing, gardening, building construction, just to mention a few.*
* Heinlein said it best;*

_*"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently and die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."*_
_*-- Robert A. Heinlein*_

This is from a older guy who has been there and done it and has tried my best to learn as much as possible.
BB


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## EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER

bunkerbob said:


> Sounds like you have had alot of good survival training from your dad and schools.
> But I believe to really survive you must become a renaissance man, read more than survival books, read history, the Constitution, learn math, cooking, canning and crafts such as blacksmithing, leather working, electronics, sewing, yes even sewing, gardening, building construction, just to mention a few.
> Heinlein said it best;
> 
> "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently and die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
> -- Robert A. Heinlein
> 
> This is from a older guy who has been there and done it and has tried my best to learn as much as possible.
> BB


I know how to do all that stuff, I grew up on a farm, homeschooled and got done with school early. For a while my parents were planning on leading a more primitive life. But they kinda grew out of that faze a few months ago. They tought me everything they know.


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## EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER

Dakine said:


> You're in an interesting position. The world is changing around you, and not for the better. And those decisions were made before even my generation. They've simply been perpetuated and the people have been told it's not really that bad... however the fact does remain that we're currently 16T in debt and our deficit continues to increase every year due to entitlements... eventually we're going to come to some very nasty crossroads.
> 
> It's good that your father has trained you in survival and that you're active in exercises which will help you survive a collapse when/if it happens.
> 
> You will learn over time, that there's more value in words people will listen to than those delivered in a tone or manner they will not.
> 
> Don't take it personally, I joined the Marines when I was 17 and I've just about gotten that "I'll be an ******* if I want to be as long as I think I'm right" mentality burned out. It only took about 20 years, but hey, who's counting


Well the way i see it is. It doesnt matter if you listen to me or not because i know what im doing and thats going to keep me alive. Not what you listen to.


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## invision

Wow, ok guys, let's all take out the measuring stick and see just who's is smaller...

Home schooled and finished early, huh? What was your SAT or ACT scores? Just curious... 

I agree, you need to also know more about the real world bro... Read about history, politics, psychology, medicine, etc. At 17, you experience with plain survival may be excellent, but you lack human skills such as interacting with others, learning how to calm you emotions, bending your opinion down a notch and expect to learn something from everybody. Understanding that just cause you have an opinion doesn't always make it right either.


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## EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER

invision said:


> Wow, ok guys, let's all take out the measuring stick and see just who's is smaller...
> 
> Home schooled and finished early, huh? What was your SAT or ACT scores? Just curious...
> 
> I agree, you need to also know more about the real world bro... Read about history, politics, psychology, medicine, etc. At 17, you experience with plain survival may be excellent, but you lack human skills such as interacting with others, learning how to calm you emotions, bending your opinion down a notch and expect to learn something from everybody. Understanding that just cause you have an opinion doesn't always make it right either.


Im up to learning from ppl, BUT ive already seen almost all of this before and i found which way is best for me and im sharing it. Just like everyone else, and im probably one of the most calm ppl youll ever see. Im just really tired of hearing the same thing over and over


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## tsrwivey

EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER said:


> I know how to do all that stuff, I grew up on a farm, homeschooled and got done with school early. For a while my parents were planning on leading a more primitive life. But they kinda grew out of that faze a few months ago. They tought me everything they know.


If the way you have presented yourself here is any indication of how you are IRL, I doubt you've learned much of anything. People can't be taught against their will & you seem convinced you know it all (or at least better than most). You'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar. . Did you come here thinking we would all just bow to your superior knowledge? You do realize many of us have t-shirts older than you, have been at this longer than you've been housebroken, & STILL learn new things? You may have great skills but your lack of social skills & gruntin', scratchin', chest-beatin' attitude will get you killed. If you could be bought for what your worth & sold for what you think your worth you definately be an asset.


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## EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER

tsrwivey said:


> If the way you have presented yourself here is any indication of how you are IRL, I doubt you've learned much of anything. People can't be taught against their will & you seem convinced you know it all (or at least better than most). You'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar. . Did you come here thinking we would all just bow to your superior knowledge? You do realize many of us have t-shirts older than you, have been at this longer than you've been housebroken, & STILL learn new things? You may have great skills but your lack of social skills & gruntin', scratchin', chest-beatin' attitude will get you killed. If you could be bought for what your worth & sold for what you think your worth you definately be an asset.


Actually, i joined this to see if i can find something i haven't heard or seen before............ so far i haven't


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## EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER

And like i said, it has nothing to do with age. Well in a way it does because if all of you are that much older than me, you didnt have the internet.....


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## EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER

But anyways its how active you are and what you do/how much time you spend to learn


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## cnsper

I hear where you are coming from, because at 17 I was the smartest person around too. At 17 you have seen but bits and pieces of all this that we call life. 

The single worst period for this country was probably the Great Depression. There were not hordes of people running around pillaging the countryside they were waiting in lines. Most people went no where and did nothing. A few left the city, a few moved into the city and a few went into the wilderness. 

As far as you not being a prepper, you really are. You are just prepping in a different manner than others. You are probably acquiring weapons and outdoor gear in preparation for what may come. Some preppers focus on stocking up on supplies/food only. These people will suffer when they run out of food. While others are preparing to become self sufficient. You don't have to be in one place to be a prepper or to roam the woods to be a survivalist. Lots of preppers have locations other than their homes that they can bug out to. You also have a place in mind that you can disappear to of needed. 

Then you have homesteaders, even you as a survivalist will probably stay in a localized area. Does that make you a homesteader or a survivalist? A homesteader lives off the land like a survivalist. The difference is that the homesteader works the land to further benefit themselves.

A prepper is just someone that prepares for the future not the fanatical hype you see on TV. I consider my self all three combined because I am living off my land for the most part and increasing that capability every day.

I learned a long time ago that I can learn something from anyone. Even the dumbest person in the world does something better or more efficiently than I do.

As far as what you have been taught, it may be good or it may be wrong, we don't know but you shove it at us like you are an expert. You may be, but at 17 I doubt it. There are just too many other things to see and learn that can not be taught that you have to see for yourself as you grow up. 

Your goals are different from a lot of others. My I plan to sit right here and keep on living. My land will sustain me just fine. I don't live in fear anymore, life is too short. Preparing yourself is not living in fear, it is common sense. There are some that live in fear and prepare because if it. Me, if I die, I die, you can not live forever and you can not live your life in fear. I am doing this to become self sufficient and if something should happen well then I am ahead of the game.


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## EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER

cnsper said:


> I hear where you are coming from, because at 17 I was the smartest person around too. At 17 you have seen but bits and pieces of all this that we call life.
> 
> The single worst period for this country was probably the Great Depression. There were not hordes of people running around pillaging the countryside they were waiting in lines. Most people went no where and did nothing. A few left the city, a few moved into the city and a few went into the wilderness.
> 
> As far as you not being a prepper, you really are. You are just prepping in a different manner than others. You are probably acquiring weapons and outdoor gear in preparation for what may come. Some preppers focus on stocking up on supplies/food only. These people will suffer when they run out of food. While others are preparing to become self sufficient. You don't have to be in one place to be a prepper or to roam the woods to be a survivalist. Lots of preppers have locations other than their homes that they can bug out to. You also have a place in mind that you can disappear to of needed.
> 
> Then you have homesteaders, even you as a survivalist will probably stay in a localized area. Does that make you a homesteader or a survivalist? A homesteader lives off the land like a survivalist. The difference is that the homesteader works the land to further benefit themselves.
> 
> A prepper is just someone that prepares for the future not the fanatical hype you see on TV. I consider my self all three combined because I am living off my land for the most part and increasing that capability every day.
> 
> I learned a long time ago that I can learn something from anyone. Even the dumbest person in the world does something better or more efficiently than I do.
> 
> As far as what you have been taught, it may be good or it may be wrong, we don't know but you shove it at us like you are an expert. You may be, but at 17 I doubt it. There are just too many other things to see and learn that can not be taught that you have to see for yourself as you grow up.
> 
> Your goals are different from a lot of others. My I plan to sit right here and keep on living. My land will sustain me just fine. I don't live in fear anymore, life is too short. Preparing yourself is not living in fear, it is common sense. There are some that live in fear and prepare because if it. Me, if I die, I die, you can not live forever and you can not live your life in fear. I am doing this to become self sufficient and if something should happen well then I am ahead of the game.


I prepare by learn as much about survival as possible. I dont waste time with parties or sports or anything like that. I live ,breath and crap survival. I have my whole life. And im not your average teenager. I look at things from almost every possible angle before i make a decision. Im so freakin tired of everyone thinking " oh, hes a teenager. He doesnt know what hes doing he just thinks he does!" Before they actually let me prove it!


----------



## EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER

You can 40 years old! Doesn't mean your smarter than a fifth grader!


----------



## cnsper

EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER said:


> I prepare by learn as much about survival as possible. I dont waste time with parties or sports or anything like that. I live ,breath and crap survival. I have my whole life. And im not your average teenager. I look at things from almost every possible angle before i make a decision. Im so freakin tired of everyone thinking " oh, hes a teenager. He doesnt know what hes doing he just thinks he does!" Before they actually let me prove it!


You probably are better off than the average teenager and most adults. But you also have to remember that we have been there, done that and have the t-shirt to prove it. We have been in your shoes and our parents were dumb as rocks but as we got older they got smarter.... Hmmm

You say you are still trying to learn, that is good, never stop. What happens if you do not have to run for the hills and you just have to wait out 30-60 days for things to return to normal? Do you have enough for that time period? If it is going to be 10 years or longer, do you have a plan for what to do then or are you going to live off the land your entire life?

What if the SHTF does not happen until you are 65 years old? Are you still going to want to live off the land? If you had a homestead you could because you would already have the water, food, shelter thing covered. Not impossible but harder to do when you are 65.

This is not just about next week or next month but you may have to do this for the next 80 years. The problem is the unknown factors, that is why I am staying put. I am not going to start over and I am already off the beaten path and they are going to have to leave me alone or kill me, period.


----------



## cnsper

EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER said:


> You can 40 years old! Doesn't mean your smarter than a fifth grader!


Too much TV for you... LOL

It is not that a 40 year old is not smarter than a 5th grader but that we only remember things that are relevant to us....:scratch LOL


----------



## EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER

cnsper said:


> You probably are better off than the average teenager and most adults. But you also have to remember that we have been there, done that and have the t-shirt to prove it. We have been in your shoes and our parents were dumb as rocks but as we got older they got smarter.... Hmmm
> 
> You say you are still trying to learn, that is good, never stop. What happens if you do not have to run for the hills and you just have to wait out 30-60 days for things to return to normal? Do you have enough for that time period? If it is going to be 10 years or longer, do you have a plan for what to do then or are you going to live off the land your entire life?
> 
> What if the SHTF does not happen until you are 65 years old? Are you still going to want to live off the land? If you had a homestead you could because you would already have the water, food, shelter thing covered. Not impossible but harder to do when you are 65.
> 
> This is not just about next week or next month but you may have to do this for the next 80 years. The problem is the unknown factors, that is why I am staying put. I am not going to start over and I am already off the beaten path and they are going to have to leave me alone or kill me, period.


Hopefully im gona be dead before im 40...


----------



## The_Blob

EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER said:


> And like i said, it has nothing to do with age. Well in a way it does because if all of you are that much older than me, you didnt have the internet.....


you're absolutely right, THEY WERE TOO BUSY [email protected](K!N6 CREATING IT! (I wasn't, I'm one of the younger members too)

The fact that you CAN 'stand on the shoulders of giants' and instantly access info, multitask, communicate globally, etc etc. - yet you refuse to acknowledge that fact truly only reveals you're arguing, pointlessly, from a position of ignorance. You claim to have 'not seen' anything on here that you didn't 'already know', yet you ask n00b questions about subjects, such as water filtration, that a simple subject search using the forum search tool would have revealed multiple threads about. vract: 

TROLLING in this manner is like mass-forwarding penile enhancing drug advertisement e-mails, the only thing you're managing to spread is your own unpopularity.


----------



## The_Blob

EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER said:


> Hopefully im gona be dead before im 40...


please have lots of phat lootz when you do & have the courtesy to do so near me so I can have them when you kick :nuts:


----------



## EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER

The_Blob said:


> you're absolutely right, THEY WERE TOO BUSY [email protected](K!N6 CREATING IT! (I wasn't, I'm one of the younger members too)
> 
> The fact that you CAN 'stand on the shoulders of giants' and instantly access info, multitask, communicate globally, etc etc. - yet you refuse to acknowledge that fact truly only reveals you're arguing, pointlessly, from a position of ignorance. You claim to have 'not seen' anything on here that you didn't 'already know', yet you ask n00b questions about subjects, such as water filtration, that a simple subject search using the forum search tool would have revealed multiple threads about. vract:
> 
> TROLLING in this manner is like mass-forwarding penile enhancing drug advertisement e-mails, the only thing you're managing to spread is your own unpopularity.


Every time i search for something it say "no results found "........... and AGAIN i was trying to find a different way to do stuff! I know how to do stuff like that but i was hoping someone could give another way to do it.


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## invision

EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER said:


> And like i said, it has nothing to do with age. Well in a way it does because if all of you are that much older than me, you didnt have the internet.....


Um... if it wasn't for a few of us on here, you would not be on the internet bro, cause a few of us helped build it.

I like how you avoided answering my question about sat and act scores, am now assuming you're more like a freshman in hs, thinking he's all that blah blah blah that lives in some suburbs living with mommy and daddy.

On thing your parents forgot to teach you is one word: respect.


----------



## EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER

invision said:


> Um... if it wasn't for a few of us on here, you would not be on the internet bro, cause a few of us helped build it.
> 
> I like how you avoided answering my question about sat and act scores, am now assuming you're more like a freshman in hs, thinking he's all that blah blah blah that lives in some suburbs living with mommy and daddy.
> 
> On thing your parents forgot to teach you is one word: respect.


Why should i respect some one who doesnt deserve it?/ and like i said my dads in the military so we are supposed to be moving to AK. So obviously i live with them retard! And nope i live in the city only lived here for 5 years. and according to if we move/where we move, im going to college in January. STFUMF


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## emilnon

Hahahaha! I feel like I'm back in highschool (eeek!).
I was very responsible for my age, too. Felt like all my classmates were idiotic children. Adults were always impressed with my maturity level. Yadda yadda yadda.
Looking back, I didn't know a damn thing. Still don't! Lol!
Life cannot be learned by 17. Or 27, or 57, etc... Life is a constant lesson. When you stop learning you stop living (as my grandma always used to say). 
Also, I have to say, go to a freaking party! Jeez! LIVE LIFE!!!! Hang with friends, laugh, play!! You obviously need more social interaction! Pry your hands off the keyboard, go out, have FUN!!! You will learn more in the real world than you ever will on a computer!!!!


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## emilnon

By the way, I graduated highschool in 1999. Guess I'm kinda "middle aged" for this site


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## hiwall

one of the biggest things that people forget when they are on the internet is - -You have the right to remain silent!!!


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## EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER

emilnon said:


> Hahahaha! I feel like I'm back in highschool (eeek!).
> I was very responsible for my age, too. Felt like all my classmates were idiotic children. Adults were always impressed with my maturity level. Yadda yadda yadda.
> Looking back, I didn't know a damn thing. Still don't! Lol!
> Life cannot be learned by 17. Or 27, or 57, etc... Life is a constant lesson. When you stop learning you stop living (as my grandma always used to say).
> Also, I have to say, go to a freaking party! Jeez! LIVE LIFE!!!! Hang with friends, laugh, play!! You obviously need more social interaction! Pry your hands off the keyboard, go out, have FUN!!! You will learn more in the real world than you ever will on a computer!!!!


Im on my ipod..... And live in extremely racist single color town...... I cant meet new ppl..... And parties are retarded...


----------



## EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER

hiwall said:


> one of the biggest things that people forget when they are on the internet is - -You have the right to remain silent!!!


EXACTLY! We have the right to remain silent! We also have the right say whatever the crap we want! -|


----------



## emilnon

EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER said:


> Im on my ipod..... And live in extremely racist single color town...... I cant meet new ppl..... And parties are retarded...


1) Unless YOU are racist, I hardly find the "color" of your town relevant.
2) You CAN go to other towns... Just a thought.
3) You need to actually GO to a party before you know if they are mentally challenged.
4) Since you already know everything, I must be wrong about everything.
5) Goodnight and I wish you the best, kiddo


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## The_Blob

EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER said:


> Why should i respect some one who doesnt deserve it?/ and like i said my dads in the military so we are supposed to be moving to AK. So obviously i live with them retard! And nope i live in the city only lived here for 5 years. and according to if we move/where we move, im going to college in January. STFUMF


obviously as a prospective 'Engrish'(sic) major  :factor10:


----------



## EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER

emilnon said:


> 1) Unless YOU are racist, I hardly find the "color" of your town relevant.
> 2) You CAN go to other towns... Just a thought.
> 3) You need to actually GO to a party before you know if they are mentally challenged.
> 4) Since you already know everything, I must be wrong about everything.
> 5) Goodnight and I wish you the best, kiddo


1) i meant there isnt anyone my 'color' here, and everyone else is racist!
2) no i cant! My parents sold my truck!
3) ive been to o few before, theyre pointless, stupid, and a waste of time!
4) i never said i new everything! Theres lots of stuff i dont know! Like how to fix a broken gasket!
5) dont lie!


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## pandamonium

EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER said:


> Why should i respect some one who doesnt deserve it?/ and like i said my dads in the military so we are supposed to be moving to AK. So obviously i live with them retard! And nope i live in the city only lived here for 5 years. and according to if we move/where we move, im going to college in January. STFUMF


Dude, this crap is not needed. If you can't have a real discussion/debate, maybe you need a different hobby. Keep it civil.


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## *Andi

EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER said:


> EXACTLY! We have the right to remain silent! We also have the right say whatever the crap we want! -|


 Sorry ... No you do not ...

You are on PS which does have rules and regs ... just a thought ... 

:admin"

Just so you know ...


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## EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER

pandamonium said:


> Dude, this crap is not needed. If you can't have a real discussion/debate, maybe you need a different hobby. Keep it civil.


But im havin so much fun........
Ill stop as soon i stop seeing things like "you have know idea what your talking about" and "youre fake"

:-D have a nice night!


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## The_Blob

EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER said:


> Every time i search for something it say "no results found "........... and AGAIN i was trying to find a different way to do stuff! I know how to do stuff like that but i was hoping someone could give another way to do it.


So, your motto is: "If I don't succeed initially, why bother trying again"? :dunno: :factor10:

:lolsmash:


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## NaeKid

And you are done for now. Please don't come back to PS unless you are ready to be grown up as I do not have time for the childish games you are playing.


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## pandamonium

Thank you Sir!


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## Startingout-Blair

Good job NaeKid!


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## SURVIVALIST_RANGER

Im not entirely sure what i did except try to stop ppl from calling me an idiot and crap like that and all of a sudden im the bad guy"


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## Startingout-Blair

It's all about the attitude and respect. It goes both ways


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## SURVIVALIST_RANGER

Startingout-Blair said:


> It's all about the attitude and respect. It goes both ways


Do you have kids?


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## Startingout-Blair

Why does that matter? Serious question. I just want to get to your point


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## SURVIVALIST_RANGER

Startingout-Blair said:



> Why does that matter? Serious question. I just want to get to your point


If you do then youd know that the more treat them like theyre idiots, the more theyll try to prove they arent! If you dont then, theres a life lesson for you! ;-)


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## SURVIVALIST_RANGER

*Andi said:


> Sorry ... No you do not ...
> 
> You are on PS which does have rules and regs ... just a thought ...
> 
> :admin"
> 
> Just so you know ...


 You know... he Just did!


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## Startingout-Blair

I spent almost 7 years in the US Army dealing with all kinds of people from all walks of life. As a prior Sergeant, I doubt you're going to teach me anything new about attitude and respect. I really think you need some time in basic training. That would provide you with excellent hands-on experience.


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## SURVIVALIST_RANGER

Startingout-Blair said:


> I spent almost 7 years in the US Army dealing with all kinds of people from all walks of life. As a prior Sergeant, I doubt you're going to teach me anything new about attitude and respect. I really think you need some time in basic training. That would provide you with excellent hands-on experience.


Ive already gone through basic...


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## Startingout-Blair

At 17 years old? I think some things do not add up.


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## SURVIVALIST_RANGER

SURVIVALIST_RANGER said:


> Ive already gone through basic...


I thought it was quite fun!


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## SURVIVALIST_RANGER

Startingout-Blair said:


> At 17 years old? I think some things do not add up.


To you they dont...... but it doesnt matter....


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## Startingout-Blair

This is exactly my point. I am being very respectful in our conversation and yet you feel the need to be a smart***. I don't understand why you say you are here to learn and provide others with your own knowledge and experience when you continuously attack others. I understand being defensive if others are being ruse to you, but even those of us that are trying to give you a chance to work with us, are being attacked.


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## SURVIVALIST_RANGER

Startingout-Blair said:


> This is exactly my point. I am being very respectful in our conversation and yet you feel the need to be a smart***. I don't understand why you say you are here to learn and provide others with your own knowledge and experience when you continuously attack others. I understand being defensive if others are being ruse to you, but even those of us that are trying to give you a chance to work with us, are being attacked.


Im not being disrespectful! Everyone's just reading it that way! Maybe i should just start adding smiley faces......

:-D better?


----------



## BillM

*I have some advise*



SURVIVALIST_RANGER said:


> Im not being disrespectful! Everyone's just reading it that way! Maybe i should just start adding smiley faces......
> 
> :-D better?


Expert Survivalist Ranger,

I am 63 years old and I have two kids who are older than your parents.

I have a grandson your age.

I am going to give you some advise based on having read most of your posts.

Get a notebook and write down everything you know while you still know everything.

You will then have it to refer back to when you are my age, (provided you make it to my age), and find out that you no longer know everything.


----------



## SURVIVALIST_RANGER

BillM said:


> Expert Survivalist Ranger,
> 
> I am 63 years old and I have two kids who are older than your parents.
> 
> I have a grandson your age.
> 
> I am going to give you some advise based on having read most of your posts.
> 
> Get a notebook and write down everything you know while you still know everything.
> 
> You will then have it to refer back to when you are my age, (provided you make it to my age), and find out that you no longer know everything.


EXPERT_SURVIVALIST_RANGER was banned.... -|


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## SURVIVALIST_RANGER

Until 10-08-2012


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## Startingout-Blair

If everyone's reading it that way, isn't it possible that you are communicating poorly? If you mean one thing and everyone else defines it differently, rather than becoming defensive, explain what you meant and logically defend your position. Most of us are here to learn, not to get into a Pi**ing match.


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## SURVIVALIST_RANGER

Startingout-Blair said:


> If everyone's reading it that way, isn't it possible that you are communicating poorly? If you mean one thing and everyone else defines it differently, rather than becoming defensive, explain what you meant and logically defend your position. Most of us are here to learn, not to get into a Pi**ing match.


If everyone wasnt so sensitive, i wouldnt have to.


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## Startingout-Blair

But this isn't YOUR forum, it is everyone's and if everyone is "sensitive", then you play by the majority's rules


----------



## Bobbb

SURVIVALIST_RANGER said:


> If everyone wasnt so sensitive, i wouldnt have to.


Dude, everything about your presence here screamed coarse. All caps in your name and a long name to boot, resulted in an assault on the eyes with the right border projecting massively into column reserved for text and those capital letters were awful to look at.

Then you presume to call yourself an expert. Here's a hint, if you're an expert then the substance of your responses would clearly convey that and there would be no need to come into these parts and scream that you're an expert until your face went blue. Expertise and respect are earned, not demanded. Your age is immaterial if you truly have knowledge that is hard for others to attain and respect would have flowed to you on the basis of you demonstrating that expertise. But that process hasn't played out because you came into these parts and started throwing your weight around, like a very insecure boy who desperately wants to be respected but simply doesn't have the patience to earn the respect that his skills would garner him or doesn't actually have the skills and so he pretends that he does and when his pretense is suspected the people who are talking with him actually show him less respect than he feels appropriate and they do this because he's earned their disrespect.

If the moderators give you a second chance then my advice is that you take it by modifying your name so that it doesn't assault everyone's eyes every time they open a thread, toning down the attitude and actually engaging in constructive conversation where you can demonstrate some of your self-declared expertise.

Here's a closing thought. If everyone you meet tells you that you have bad breath and this surprises you, then the least logical position to claim is that you don't have bad breath and that everyone you meet is just too damn sensitive to recognize the spring freshness of your breath. You're looking like a dude stuck in his own bubble of self-worship.


----------



## invision

Hey mods, can you ban by MAC addy? Just a thought... If you need help, PM me for ideas.

I have been prepping for only a few months dude, but i think my first post on my supplies that I have gathered in 1 month got more than a few good reviews. How am i learning more each day? By listening and taking advice on here. I am a highly successful business man, as I think a few on here realize when I talk about finance or computers and having met one, he knows I really do drive what i say I do... I think there is another that also knows what type of man I am by some of my affiliations, and from that knows that I would do almost anything for a friend.

Let me give you one piece of real honest good advice, never ever say you know everything or come off that way. I have been in the IT arena now for 20 yrs, I have helped design and implement some of the largest networks. I have built multiple companies from the ground up and made a very comfortable life for myself. I also have some very serious clients with some very serious money, which they trust my company to consult to them, in which I charge outrageous fees. My point is, if I ever had the attitude of I know it all. I wouldn't have their trust nor their business. What makes me one of probably top 10 consultants in Atlanta on DRP/BRP, VMware, Etc, is I will say "damn, never seen that before" instead of giving some lame see through b.s. Statement. Then find the correct answer.

This forum is to help others, talk about things, share things and ideas, and be a community. 

To be "17", which I think your younger, personally... And then state you have been through basic and enjoyed it, is literally a slap in the face to every active and non-active military person on this forum,.. I have never served, but by God I think the most of them for doing so, and thank them openly for helping protect my freedom.

I also think your starving for attention, part because you probably have moved so much if you are indeed a military brat, part because you live on the Internet and have probably zero face to face friends (which I hope not), and part because you have been home schooled (nothing against home schooling, but it has been proven that home schooled children have less social abilities than those from private or public schools due to lack of interaction with many different types of children).

No one on here has to respect what I say, I have even gotten into it with a few, including a MOD, but I have never cussed them out. In fact, I have had decent communications with that Mod on other topics, and we both have a lot of knowledge in similar areas... If you truly want respect, then you have to earn that respect. Maybe your dad sold that truck, due to lack of respect, i don't know... However, you come on here and start blasting away and no one will like you, let alone respect you, nor trust you. Maybe you don't give a damn, if so then go somewhere else...

You have a lot of maturing to do, and I wish you luck.


----------



## goshengirl

As I've been known to say to my teenage sons: Don't _tell _me you're mature. _Show _me. And when you _are _mature, you'll understand the difference.


----------



## SURVIVALIST_RANGER

invision said:


> Hey mods, can you ban by MAC addy? Just a thought... If you need help, PM me for ideas.
> 
> I have been prepping for only a few months dude, but i think my first post on my supplies that I have gathered in 1 month got more than a few good reviews. How am i learning more each day? By listening and taking advice on here. I am a highly successful business man, as I think a few on here realize when I talk about finance or computers and having met one, he knows I really do drive what i say I do... I think there is another that also knows what type of man I am by some of my affiliations, and from that knows that I would do almost anything for a friend.
> 
> Let me give you one piece of real honest good advice, never ever say you know everything or come off that way. I have been in the IT arena now for 20 yrs, I have helped design and implement some of the largest networks. I have built multiple companies from the ground up and made a very comfortable life for myself. I also have some very serious clients with some very serious money, which they trust my company to consult to them, in which I charge outrageous fees. My point is, if I ever had the attitude of I know it all. I wouldn't have their trust nor their business. What makes me one of probably top 10 consultants in Atlanta on DRP/BRP, VMware, Etc, is I will say "damn, never seen that before" instead of giving some lame see through b.s. Statement. Then find the correct answer.
> 
> This forum is to help others, talk about things, share things and ideas, and be a community.
> 
> To be "17", which I think your younger, personally... And then state you have been through basic and enjoyed it, is literally a slap in the face to every active and non-active military person on this forum,.. I have never served, but by God I think the most of them for doing so, and thank them openly for helping protect my freedom.
> 
> I also think your starving for attention, part because you probably have moved so much if you are indeed a military brat, part because you live on the Internet and have probably zero face to face friends (which I hope not), and part because you have been home schooled (nothing against home schooling, but it has been proven that home schooled children have less social abilities than those from private or public schools due to lack of interaction with many different types of children).
> 
> No one on here has to respect what I say, I have even gotten into it with a few, including a MOD, but I have never cussed them out. In fact, I have had decent communications with that Mod on other topics, and we both have a lot of knowledge in similar areas... If you truly want respect, then you have to earn that respect. Maybe your dad sold that truck, due to lack of respect, i don't know... However, you come on here and start blasting away and no one will like you, let alone respect you, nor trust you. Maybe you don't give a damn, if so then go somewhere else...
> 
> You have a lot of maturing to do, and I wish you luck.


First of all, i have gone threw basic
Second, i am 17
Third, i haven't yelled at all.
Fourth, ive only moved once
Fifth, I HAVE NEVER IN MY LIFE SAID I KNOW EVERYTHING(I CAN GIVE YOU A LIST OF STUFF I DONT KNOW)
SIXTH, ive been reading this forum for a while and i always wanted to comment on these thread, so i made my account yesterday and commented on the ones i wanted to.
Seventh, i wasnt even able to "prove myself" cuz everybody bombarded me with "you dont know anything" crap

Shall i go on?


----------



## Startingout-Blair

Very good post Invision!


----------



## pandamonium

I am done giving advice to super survivor, he was banned, changed his name and was back on in two minutes. If the immature name calling baby crap continues , then he will have proved to everyone that he CAN NOT learn. 

I DO hope he catches on and can be a contributing member here. If not, then on the IGNORE list he goes.


----------



## SURVIVALIST_RANGER

I started out trying to help ppl by telling them what i know, then everyone just started saying that i thought i new everything and i dont..... so i took the defensive!


----------



## SURVIVALIST_RANGER

So thats how it is on this end of the conversation!


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## Startingout-Blair

Restate yourself. People on here are pretty forgiving. Don't be so quick to be defensive. There are a lot of people that just like to rib others for fun. Just try to be helpful without the attitude and others will give you a chance


----------



## Bobbb

SURVIVALIST_RANGER said:


> First of all, i have gone threw basic
> Second, i am 17


Most people are attuned to lies of omission. Here you're making an unqualified statement. You went through basic training. You are 17. The minimum age for enlisting is 17, so for your claim to be true then you had to enlist, complete basic and be on duty somewhere or have been discharged.

So, tell us, WHERE did you do basic?

If you're lying by omission, trying to claim that you have gone through basic but really meaning that your dad gave you a book and supervised your physical training, well buddy, that's not the same thing, and if something like this is what you mean, then don't claim that you've gone through basic.

One either goes through basic or they don't. It's kind of like being pregnant - you're either pregnant or you're not.


----------



## SURVIVALIST_RANGER

Bobbb said:


> Most people are attuned to lies of omission. Here you're making an unqualified statement. You went through basic training. You are 17. The minimum age for enlisting is 17, so for your claim to be true then you had to enlist, complete basic and be on duty somewhere or have been discharged.
> 
> So, tell us, WHERE did you do basic?
> 
> If you're lying by omission, trying to claim that you have gone through basic but really meaning that your dad gave you a book and supervised your physical training, well buddy, that's not the same thing, and if something like this is what you mean, then don't claim that you've gone through basic.
> 
> One either goes through basic or they don't. It's kind of like being pregnant - you're either pregnant or you're not.


Fort Butner


----------



## RoadRash

Plan B is a friends BOL 320 miles Due North thru some heavily populated areas, walking there is a month long journey depending on situation stay to rail way tracks or just off no major roads or cities. Scavange for food n water after 3 -4 days. travel light slow n steady looking hungry weak n tired. No Govt camps, scavange thru abandoned buildings where there may food shelter or bartering items? This may be a good time to start praying to what I have yet to figure out?


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## The_Blob

SURVIVALIST_RANGER said:


> Fort Butner


Juvenile Justice Officer 'Basic Training' at CAMP Butner? :rofl:

The U.S. Army has FIVE sites for BCT (Basic COMBAT Training):

Fort Benning, Georgia

Fort Jackson, South Carolina

Fort Knox, Kentucky

Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri

Fort Sill, Oklahoma

Then you transfer (or stay) for your M.O.S.


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## invision

SURVIVALIST_RANGER said:


> Fort Butner


For a job or as a troubled juvenile?


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## Startingout-Blair

I did basic at fort Dix, NJ in 1988 when they still had it there.


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## Startingout-Blair

That was one cold MoFo in Jan thru March!!! Neg 25 degree windchill factors. Try shooting expert in that!!!


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## tsrwivey

invision said:


> I also think your starving for attention, part because you probably have moved so much if you are indeed a military brat, part because you live on the Internet and have probably zero face to face friends (which I hope not), and part because you have been home schooled (nothing against home schooling, but it has been proven that home schooled children have less social abilities than those from private or public schools due to lack of interaction with many different types of children).


I was with you until this statement. I've homeschooled for 13 years now with one kid graduated & another graduating this year. I actively deal with homeschoolers on a daily basis, have held many leadership positions in the community, have taught many classes of homeschooled kids, & have spent years as the liaison between the homeschool community & the local colleges organizing high school level science classes. For those of us who actually know the activities real, live homeschoolers participate in, the statement that hsers lack social skills actually invokes laughter. It takes the average hser 2-4 hours a day to complete their academics, this frees up a lot of time to do numerous activities. Hsers take outside courses & participate in sports in co-ops with other hsers, at private schools, & at the colleges. Homeschool groups offer many of the same activities found elsewhere but also some unique activities that reflect the skills of the group members, for example my kids have taken ballroom dancing, theatrical sword fighting, & woodworking. They participate in extracurricular activities offered in the community like civil air patrol, drama & sports. They participate in the community through volunteer work in nursing homes, churches, welcoming home soldiers, libraries, museums, political campaigns, & nonprofits. They can participate in many activities & still have time to spend lots of time together as a family.

Hsers come from a wide variety of backgrounds. We have all colors & all income levels in our group. We are also blessed to have many missionary kids who have lived in other countries.

They used to say untrained parents couldn't possibly teach their children all subjects k-12 & do it well. Impartial testing like the ACT & SAT proved them wrong so now the argument is socialization. How convenient since there is no objective test to measure social skills. Funny, as a privately schooled kid growing up in the 80's, I remember them using the exact same arguments to try to discredit private school. Perhaps I'm way off, but if my goal was to teach social skills to kids I would start in the home using their interactions with their family members. If you can get along with family, you can probably get along with anybody! Next, I would expose them to the community where they would come into contact with people of all ages, backgrounds, interests, skills, & abilities. Schools lock them in a building for 7 hours a day with a room full of other kids within a year of their age. We all have common sense, which way more closely resembles adult life?

I've never heard of one study where hsers were reported to have decreased social skills & articles about hsers spread like wildfire amongst hsers just as anything about preppers spreads among us. Daily it seems there's yet another report about bullying, assaults, drugs, & child molesters in public schools; surely that's not the socialization you're referring to nor holding as an example of the excellent social skills of publicly schooled kids.

Bottom line: People just can't stand that hsed kids aren't being brainwashed in a public school & it's an option for families that couldn't afford private school. Some parents, insecure in the choices they've made for their own children, feel compelled to critize the choices of others. (Wanna see a mom discussion get nasty fast, discuss the topic of a working mom vs. a stay at home mom & almost as bad try breast feeding vs formula feeding). Don't forget the teacher's unions, they despise hsers (although teaching your own kids is completely different than teaching 25+ of someone else's). Social skills were taught at home long before we had the public school system. Coincidentally, we had a much higher level of social graces than we do now. Not suggesting a causal relationship, but it is interesting to compare what was considered socially acceptable 100 years ago to now.


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## rushwiz

I am concerned about being a sitting duck as a prepper (I live in a small city outside of a large metropolitan City). Would definitely try to get down to my mom's out in the hills of Tennessee in SHTF SCENARIO (load up the truck and a trailer). Of course if there is no gas, a EMP, or other situation, I guess I will have to bug-in. I am setting up lots of stuff such as solar panels, a small wind generator, vertical and container gardening, aquaponics, (misc backups in faraday cage in basement), etc. within a 6' high fenced in area (panel fences that can't be see in...) But, people can see the many things that stick up above the fence (i.e. wind generator), and that would make me a target for looters and other criminals. I'll probably be doing a lot of prep in this fenced in area, that the County would not like (because of many permits needed), but am preparing for the worst. I have two friends in this area, that are silent preppers - they do not want anyone to know they are prepping, they do not even want other preppers to know who they are. Talked to a guy at a yardsale recently. Got discussing bad times, and he said, if SHTF, and he knows someone has food, he knows where he is going to get food to feed his family. He was talking about of course eliminating the person who has the food to get what he and his family needs... That is scary. That is what many of us preppers face if SHTF. I really feel, that I need to connect with other preppers, and that we need to setup some type of coordination, with skills, supplies, resources, and communications, and to meet at a central place (for us that are living in the cities), to get out to a preppers place in the country somewhere. There is strength in numbers, and we could make it even though we may have several battles as the mobs work their way out from the cities. God help us... Hope bad times do not happen, but just look at what is going on in the World... It's coming... Again, God help us who had the common sense to prepare. To get back on topic, I am trying to think of ways of long term survival so I don't run out of the necessities... I have really brainstormed this, done a ton of research too. How can I have the necessities (supplies) for long term... Heirloom seeds a must, grow rabbits in backyard, get incubator and raise quail for eggs and meat, sprout seeds for food and vitamins, aquaculture system in our pool, Mini greenhouse to extend season, solar electric system (Solar panels), small wind generator, bicycle generator, solar food dehydrator, solar heater system using soda cans (this is mentioned on this forum), get pallets and firewood stored up to the max for our woodstove, setup security measures around home (won't give details), have plenty of ammo, have traps and snares to catch food, have large 20x40 net (from old pool to catch leaves) to use as source to catch fish in river near here, have made solar rechargable lighting systems from solar lawn light solar cells and led flashlight heads, and hundreds of other ideas for taking caring of ourselves longterm. THink outside the box, think longterm, look at it from every angle and situation, and prepare, prepare, prepare. Check out "Instructables.com" for thousands of plans to make the things you need for preparedness and survival.


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## Wellrounded

If there was nothing left of the homestead I'd go bush. Plenty to eat out there. More concerned about shelter and keeping out of harms way. There are now little ones here and that change the whole game plan.


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## cazetofamo

Srry, didnt mean to post this and i edited out the private message that i put here on accident


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## MetalPrepper

We live on a lake, with a wild life preserve next door as well....I think we'd be able to eat. .....and that eagle I'm holding in the pic, the raptor center is on that nature preserve....yum yum, eagle and hawk ....LOL!!


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## fondini

MetalPrepper said:


> We live on a lake, with a wild life preserve next door as well....I think we'd be able to eat. .....and that eagle I'm holding in the pic, the raptor center is on that nature preserve....yum yum, eagle and hawk ....LOL!!


Probably taste like fish


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## Canadian

fondini said:


> Probably taste like fish


Don't most things taste like chicken?


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## hiwall

"Don't most things taste like chicken? "

Eagles eat alota fish.


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## Canadian

hiwall said:


> "Don't most things taste like chicken? "
> 
> Eagles eat alota fish.


Bears eat a lot of Salmon. Bear meat does not taste like fish.

However, it doesn't taste like chicken either.


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## redhorse

How about trapping the eagle or hawk and teaching him to hunt for you  Falconry is almost as old as the domestication of livestock, and those birds have supplied lots of game for our kind through the centuries . Search Youtube for eagles hunting deer. Amazing stuff. I never see falconry mentioned on this forum, and think it is a wonderful addition to anyones survival skills, albeit heavily regulated by the powers that be.


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## redhorse

I can't figure out how to post the link, but just entering that search brings up Eagles hunting wolves, deer, mountain goats, etc. Eagles are however very large, but you can hunt with raptors as small as the kestrel. The bigger the bird, the bigger the game. Plus its silent hunting.


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## Canadian

I've met people who do the raptor hunting and met their birds. Fascinating stuff but it is a commitment for life. The bids require intense care.


----------



## redhorse

True that Canadian, but if we are forced to go back to hunter gatherers or real homesteading, we'll be in the woods and fields a lot of the time anyway. Hawks are about in the middle of the size spectrum, so can still bring down decent sized game without requiring the large quantities of meat an eagle would need. The smaller raptors are the most finiky as far as correct hunting weights and care, and can really only go after smaller pigeon sized birds, voles, and mice. From traping to first hunt with a hawk, only a month or so is really needed for training depending on the bird. I'm not sure what Canadian laws are, but here in Ohio you there are special caging requirements that can make their care expensive. Every state is different also. In past times, the falcons were often just kept tethered out doors and sheltered with their keepers in inclement weather. Basically, they require less care than gardening  Or building arrows if say your ammo had been used up, or time spent in a deer stand waiting for the game to come to you. With falconry, you go to the game and spook it out for the birds. Every year during hay making time, there are always hawks waiting on the edge of the fields for the tractor to spook out rabbits. Falconry just takes it one step further. I know it's not for everyone, but its just a thought. One of the many skills that our society has nearly forgotten, but once played a major roll in providing meat for the table, and still is in remote parts of the world.


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## redhorse

As a side note, I know a few falconers that trap their birds late summer as soon as the season opens, hunt as soon as the game seasons open in the fall through the seasons close (depending on what they are hunting). At season's close, the release their birds. Generally, most young raptors do not survive in the wild. As soon as they are on their own, they have to learn to hunt, and quickly, or they starve. This can be in as little as a week. Raptors that are trapped for falconry, if released, have a far better survival rate. They are given the chance to learn an make mistakes. Falconry isn't about training a bird to hunt, it is working with their natural instincts and having a true working relationship. Falconers played a huge role in the success of bringing back the Bald Eagle. The only birds that need to be kept for life today are those that are captive bred, or those that are injured and unable to survive in the wild. Me likes my birds  Sorry for the long posts


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## MetalPrepper

I am a raptor rehabber who lives very close to the rehab area where . I volunteer ...I know some of falconry and my husband and I have often thought that this is indeed a weapon, and when and if the world goes upside down, we know where many captors live and have thought how to utilize them. They are very needy, but do not need us at all. .....


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## OHprepper

Whatever happened to the expert_survivalist? I just found my pen and paper.... Im ready to learn kiddo.....


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## smaj100

*chicken*



JeepHammer said:


> If supplies run out, you simply eat the 'Commie Gun' carrying guys that show up!
> 
> They taste just like chicken!


Even if they don't taste good or like chicken make a stew out of em. :nuts:


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## hiwall

If things get bad I could see cannibalism happening in this country. Take a long time to eat up all the dogs and cats people have though.


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## ThoxSpuddy

How long would it take for Wal Mart's shelves to empty?


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## MetalPrepper

Huuuuuuummm.... 1-3 days


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## invision

ThoxSpuddy said:


> How long would it take for Wal Mart's shelves to empty?


Well looking at ammo supplies... If the daily deliveries stopped, depending upon size of surrounding area versus store size... My area 2 days max... And that is 3 super Walmarts and 1 Walmart grocery only - not 10 miles apart..


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## majmill

NaeKid 121608 (see page one of thread) I hike. I cycle. I x-country ski. I snow shoe. I roller-blade.
In 1988 I hiked. I cycled. I x-country skied. I snow shoed. I foraged. We didn't have roller blades then.
Nowadays me and my walker walk SLOWLY!Then I lived in Vermont, now I live in the south so all the foraging plants are new to me. My trusty copy of "Stalking the Wild Asparagus" and I are in a new phase of learning.
When my supplies run out, WISH ME LUCK!!


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## DCcam87

I am up for anything to keep me and my girlfriend (soon to be fiance if she says yes) alive. I voted for "Do whatever it takes" but in reality I would not risk trying to loot occupied buildings. If it is a SHTF situation and a building is occupied I wold say 9 out of 10 chances there will be someone with some sort of weapon inside. I know for a fact my girlfriend will not last on her own and I would not want her on her own in a SHTF situation. (P.S. prepping with out her knowing is difficult lol)


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## goshengirl

DCcam87 said:


> I am up for anything to keep me and my girlfriend (soon to be fiance if she says yes) alive.


Congrats on your upcoming status change! :congrat:


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## UKzilla

People do some very despicable things during a SHTF scenario, and I mean even good people will do what it takes to feed thier kids. You can infer what this really means.


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## helicopter5472

endurance said:


> This is why I'm planning on putting in some caches. First, I don't like the idea of all my eggs in one basket. If I have a year's worth of food at the house, but my house gets burglarized, burns down, or is in an evacuation zone, I'm back at zero for preps. If I call 911 for a kitchen fire and the fire department reports that I have suspicious items in my kitchen like a food dehydrator, grain mill, wheat, and a solar freezer, I don't want to have to explain when the cops come back to talk to me and they find that I have a year's worth of food, fuel and ammunition. Even if it's legal, it makes the papers and that makes me a target of both ridicule and crime.
> 
> My goal is to spread out. I want to have enough at home to get through a long, harsh winter, but I see real benefits to getting anything more and caching it off site. Some stuff I'm planning on storing in a friend's basement. Other stuff may end up buried on public lands.
> 
> Ultimately, I'd like two kinds of caches, resupply and restarting. Resupply would be the obvious, focused on food, batteries, and other consumables. Restarting caches would assume that either my home was destroyed or I could never return. That would mean I'd need to the tools to rebuild some reasonable quality of life.  Obviously food is important, but shelter is critical. Having somewhere I could start over with the tools to build a cabin, till the land, seeds to grow crops, and materials to barter would be better than having nothing at all. If I get to the point of putting together a restart cache, I'd want it out of the area entirely. Ideally in opposite directions since I may not know now which direction I may need to get out of dodge.
> 
> I've started a few lists of items I'd consider valuable for each type of cache and if there's an interest, I'll post them. But I'd be interested in some feedback on the whole concept of caching first. Obviously there's risk that a cache could get stolen (although there's some obvious precautions to minimize the risk), but so could everything in your home, especially in an urban/suburban setting.


Yep I like your thinking..besides my house being stocked, if I have to move on my motorhome is also stocked,plus I also have 56ac. within 12 miles of my house that have buried supplies for that "just in case"


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## Canadian

Motorhome is interesting. It has to make the 12 miles though.


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## lanahi

In a long-term disaster, most of us WILL run out of supplies. 
"Living off the land", unless you have an active farm and can stay there and successfully defend it, means knowing wild plant foods. If you think game and fish are going to be plentiful, they won't be within a short time. Even now, you can't depend on killing a deer or catching enough fish, but when everyone is doing it, it will be over-harvested very soon. Fewer people know the wild plants, though, and this is mostly what there will be.
Learn the wild edible plants in your area, especially the high energy/high calorie plants, like nuts, seeds, and starchy roots, during each of the seasons. Most of these are available only in the fall except for roots. Start with those plants in your own yard and learn all about them. Look for cattails and other plants that provide food in any season. Plant some edible root plants as "flowers" around your home so someone doesn't steal what is known as food.
They can and probably will steal much of your food, but they can't steal your knowledge of how to survive off the land.
Our preps give us TIME to learn more about living off the land, but it would be best to know it ahead of time. Then, if you can keep your preps, they can be assessories to your wild meals so they last longer.


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## machinist

This poll does not include enough options, i.e., "None of the above" would have to be my answer. 

If I cannot grow, make, repurpose, substitute, or trade for what we need, we had darn well better be able to do without it. Those who are thinking like this poll indicates, have a REALLY BIG problem. 

The bottom line is, you cannot STORE enough to last forever, so the answer is to PRODUCE what you need, or be able to trade what you can produce for what you cannot. People need to focus on production. If they are not in a position to do that, it is well nigh time that they GET INTO THAT POSITION, whatever they choose to do. 

Sitting in an apartment somewhere with a pallet of freeze dried food just ain't gonna cut it, long term. Better be thinking about that, and come up with some REAL answers for yourself. And "bugging out to the wilderness" is not a viable long term solution, either. There just is not enough wilderness to go around now, and would not ever be without a population cutback to that of something like 200 years ago. We MIGHT get by with population levels at 1850 level, IF those folks knew enough to properly utilize the available resources in an agrarian based society. Not likely in today's world. 

Boy, am I going to get some flack for that remark! But I do believe what I said. Long term, the only real answer is to be productive. It is long past time to be thinking "sustainable" solutions, instead of short-term, "how do I eat today" thinking.

Yeah, I know, that doesn't fit into the backpack paradigm of today's "prepper" mentality. Too bad.

Please excuse me for now, 'cause I have 3 gardens to tend to, an orchard to prune, and some chickens to feed. I need to check water levels in the cistern and the irrigation tank, and sow some grass seed where the wood pile was last year. I have a sorghum mill to rebuild, and a wood splitter to finish building, too. Wife doesn't have time to help a lot because she is baking bread and drying eggs. Also need to trim around the fence, and spend some time with the guard dogs. Hint, hint, for those who may be eyeing our place.


----------



## worldengineer

machinist said:


> This poll does not include enough options, i.e., "None of the above" would have to be my answer.
> 
> If I cannot grow, make, repurpose, substitute, or trade for what we need, we had darn well better be able to do without it. Those who are thinking like this poll indicates, have a REALLY BIG problem.
> 
> The bottom line is, you cannot STORE enough to last forever, so the answer is to PRODUCE what you need, or be able to trade what you can produce for what you cannot. People need to focus on production. If they are not in a position to do that, it is well nigh time that they GET INTO THAT POSITION, whatever they choose to do.
> 
> Sitting in an apartment somewhere with a pallet of freeze dried food just ain't gonna cut it, long term. Better be thinking about that, and come up with some REAL answers for yourself. And "bugging out to the wilderness" is not a viable long term solution, either. There just is not enough wilderness to go around now, and would not ever be without a population cutback to that of something like 200 years ago. We MIGHT get by with population levels at 1850 level, IF those folks knew enough to properly utilize the available resources in an agrarian based society. Not likely in today's world.
> 
> Boy, am I going to get some flack for that remark! But I do believe what I said. Long term, the only real answer is to be productive. It is long past time to be thinking "sustainable" solutions, instead of short-term, "how do I eat today" thinking.
> 
> Yeah, I know, that doesn't fit into the backpack paradigm of today's "prepper" mentality. Too bad.
> 
> Please excuse me for now, 'cause I have 3 gardens to tend to, an orchard to prune, and some chickens to feed. I need to check water levels in the cistern and the irrigation tank, and sow some grass seed where the wood pile was last year. I have a sorghum mill to rebuild, and a wood splitter to finish building, too. Wife doesn't have time to help a lot because she is baking bread and drying eggs. Also need to trim around the fence, and spend some time with the guard dogs. Hint, hint, for those who may be eyeing our place.


Not sure If I understand your post correctly, but somehow the "Do whatever it takes" option wasn't sufficient?

That is the most broad of all of those listed..... 
Preppers will do their best on stocked supplies and what they can produce, and if that isn't enough, then why would one not use other resources?


----------



## k0xxx

Machinist is 100% correct. What about an option for producing my own and bartering for the rest? The poll would seem to indicate than our only options would involve raiding/looting or being "rescued" by others. (ok, one half of one option does mention barter)

None of us truly know what we would do if family members were starving. However, if we are prepared enough (in a an apocalyptic scenario) then we would stand a better chance of surviving the chaos and reaching the point where we can raise our own and provide for ourselves. We raise and preserve our own vegetables, fruit, eggs, and meat. We're getting better are raising our own feed for the animals and hope to produce 100% in the next season or two. If something happens before then, we'll have to feed what we can and eat the rest (sounds like a Bluebell ice cream commercial). The point is, we don't plan on raiding, looting, begging, or waiting to be rescued.


----------



## BillS

Most of the unprepared will die off in the first 3 months. I think more people will die from illnesses associated with bad water than starvation. If that's the case, once it's reasonably safe to be outside, that would be the time to start supplementing your stash of canned food with fresh fish and game. Otherwise, if all the fish and game are gone it's going to be difficult to stretch your stored food.

The other thing of course is what time of year does the collapse happen? A fall collapse would mean that most people wouldn't survive the winter in the north. Birds would come back in the spring and you could hunt them.


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## k0xxx

worldengineer said:


> Not sure If I understand your post correctly, but somehow the "Do whatever it takes" option wasn't sufficient?
> 
> That is the most broad of all of those listed.....
> Preppers will do their best on stocked supplies and what they can produce, and if that isn't enough, then why would one not use other resources?


"Doing *whatever* it takes" sounds, to me, like a combination of several of the options, up to and including taking resources by force. If I plan to take things by force at some point, then why would I even bother preparing in any way other than using force? I would just start off taking things by force when there are more resources available and people are the most vulnerable. That way I would have honed my skills and be more adept for when supplies dwindle and those still surviving are more alert and prepared for raiders. The very nature of prepping (as most of us here seem to practice it) is to not have to rely on the resources of others. YMMV


----------



## JayJay

If our supplies run out--this world is screwed.
Make peace with your Creator.


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## machinist

worldengineer,

koxxx pretty well said what I was thinking. The "do whatever it takes" option had bad connotations for me. My point was, I have made sure that I have options other than looting or scavenging, since I see looting as wrong, and scavenging as uncertain. 

Primarily, I wanted to emphasize the need to put things in place NOW for your own productive processes, whatever they may be. That is in sharp contrast to what I perceive as a "doomsday" mentality, for want of a better term, wherein the only choices are, A) Status Quo, or, B) Mad Max/The Road/Bugout to the Wilderness. I see that as a false dichotomy. There are many choices, not only a couple. The best choices are grounded in changing our thinking to much longer term and our lifestyles to something more sustainable. That means we have to start ASAP, preferably, some time ago to put things in place for better long term living, come what may.


----------



## rawhide2971

I'm pretty much ridding with BillS. I figure that depending on when the collapse happens a big percentage will die off within 90 days. Maybe sooner. All those feeding off the gooberment teet will be the first to go, the big cities will be nothing but die off zones withing in 72 hours as all the services break down and food runs out, total chaos threre, then there will be the exodus to the country side and the yuppies will be overwhelemed by the teetsuckers and it will be really ugly and Zombie land will look like a good thing. If its winter the die off up north is going to be horrendous. Figure in 6 months things will settle down and then you have to contend with the hard core gangs that will be trying to steal adn loot and take control and thats when hunkering down and keeping a low profile will either be a good option or having banded together with a like minded hard core group for self protection will be the only hope....give it a year and then those still around might be able to start to pull the village concept back together and start back to the farming and some kind of group dependent society...of course I will probably be long gone but I can hope my kids and grandkids will still be around having benefited from my preperations and learned enough to survive.....maybe then the country can bounce back and recover and not make the same mistakes .......but stupied is as stupied does.....


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## worldengineer

Hey Machinist,

I see where ya'll are coming from now. I assumed the option doing what ever it takes included everything in it. I don't consider "prepping" as an option, it is a must. Still if it comes to it taking supplies may very well be an option. Myself and family will always come before others, just like yours will.


----------



## UncleJoe

worldengineer said:


> I don't consider "prepping" as an option, it is a must.


While I do realize it isn't possible for everyone, making it a lifestyle is the best option.


----------



## BillS

When you think about it, if your supplies run out 3 months into the collapse there won't be any other options if you don't want to steal food from other people. Most likely there won't be any fish or game. The starving hoards will have already been through every empty building of any kind--every home, factory, church, business, and office of any kind. They'll have gone through every car to eat the french fries underneath the seat. Your chances of bartering for food will be almost 0. How many people will have so much food that they'd take a chance in trading it away?


----------



## machinist

I agree with BillS. It won't take long for the masses to get hungry. I do think it will take them a while to drift out of town, because town is all that most of them know. I've been acquainted with some hard core bad city dudes that ran like crazy from the sight of a red wasp! They talked at some length about the terrors of the "country", and all the wild animals there. Get 'em off of pavement, and they are like a short dog in tall grass---really lost, and scared to death. There are some that would make it to the countryside, no doubt, but I think it is a lot fewer than many people believe. 

I think it is the suburbanites that would venture outside the city limits. After they run out of gas, I doubt if they get very far. Small town folks might have a thing or two to say about being overrun by pilgrims, too. 

After all that is settled, there will be some that become a problem in the countryside. Not saying this is not a potential problem, but just expanding on the nature of the problem. The numbers would get reduced, is my point. 

I live in a farming area. LOTS of food around, although not many of the "starving hordes" would recognize it as such, nor know what to do with it if you gave to them. Yes, some would. Of those, there might be a few survive to live another day. Of course, I am only speculating. I don't recall anything to compare in history, unless it would be some relatively recent events in Argentina, if that applies, where rural folks were trashed by invaders from cities.

Just trying to get my head around this.


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## Woody

A couple interesting points brought up. I had figured that the hordes from the city would wander but for how far? I’m sure they would stick to the roads because that is what the houses are connected to. Siphoning gas would be difficult as most vehicles have anti-siphoning devises in them unless they are older models. Would they think to punch a hole in the tank itself or have the skills/tools required to catch the gas and put it in their vehicle? A lot of the smaller cars would require a jack to get to the tank. Even a large ‘gang’ of folks would run into other ‘gangs’ and most likely fight it out rather than band together. Even if they banded together a larger group of people needs a larger amount of food AND water to sustain them. They can only move so fast to pillage and find a lesser and lesser amount of food as houses get farther and farther apart and what folks there are have already consumed what they had. If reduced to traveling on foot they can only carry so much ammo, tools of destruction and their raided supplies with them. If they were guiltless enough to kill or pillage for food what would keep them from turning on themselves for what little remains? Their numbers would dwindle also buy running into prey with weapons. Sure they would overpower their prey but at the loss of a few members. So, all in all I think those large hoards would be self limiting and slowly lose numbers.

Would they stay in a group and pillage house to house or break up in smaller groups and spread out? If they break up and reassemble daily that would make their progress much slower. How much would the smaller groups be willing to share with the whole group? I would think that they would fill themselves before sharing what little remained, if anything. If they are a mass of 100 and pillage in groups of 5 and they find 4 cans of food, would that small group turn all 4 in and take a chance on getting only a spoonful or eat 2 and turn 2 in or eat all 4 and say they found nothing? What if they get caught eating all the food they find and not sharing with the group? Will they get killed, punished or tossed out? Who decides who is in charge and in which direction they go? I think that the large group would have troubles staying together due to lots of things. That brings us back to dealing with small groups of predators and they would dwindle quickly as they encounter resistance and other predators.

As Bill mentioned, only the first groups to wander from the city would have anything to pillage. When the next wave comes along any homes or businesses they find will already be cleaned out.


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## machinist

There aren't many grocery stores per square mile in the rural areas, either. Most semi-rural folks commute to the city for work and live like their city brethren, with little food on hand. It would be slim pickings for scavengers, IMHO, unless they knew what to do with a cow on the hoof, or corn growing in the field if they make it out as far as where we are. 

I doubt if any of them understand what to look for in the boonies. There are some pretty self reliant sorts out here, but it isn't obvious. I think that a scavenger in such a situation would get pretty discouraged. And pretty hungry. Might eat most anything and be sorry for it.


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## Wellrounded

machinist said:


> There aren't many grocery stores per square mile in the rural areas, either. Most semi-rural folks commute to the city for work and live like their city brethren, with little food on hand. It would be slim pickings for scavengers, IMHO, unless they knew what to do with a cow on the hoof, or corn growing in the field if they make it out as far as where we are.
> 
> I doubt if any of them understand what to look for in the boonies. There are some pretty self reliant sorts out here, but it isn't obvious. I think that a scavenger in such a situation would get pretty discouraged. And pretty hungry. Might eat most anything and be sorry for it.


I feel the same way, most of the people I encounter have not a clue about anything. They would starve standing in a field of carrots.
If things got really bad here I don't think many Sydney siders (Sydney is 300 miles away) will get this far. It took the first english settlers 20 years to cross the mountains, true we have roads now, but very few and bridges will be blocked pretty quickly. The mountains are rugged and there are few towns and virtually no agriculture. I'm more worried about the small towns around us, enough people to cause a few problems but we're still not that close to any of them. Most of the rural residents around here buy their groceries at the supermarket and have no idea at all about alternatives. 
Six months after things get bad most will have starved to death or met an alternative tragic end.


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## SouthCentralUS

Woody said:


> A couple interesting points brought up. I had figured that the hordes from the city would wander but for how far? I'm sure they would stick to the roads because that is what the houses are connected to. Siphoning gas would be difficult as most vehicles have anti-siphoning devises in them unless they are older models. Would they think to punch a hole in the tank itself or have the skills/tools required to catch the gas and put it in their vehicle? A lot of the smaller cars would require a jack to get to the tank. Even a large 'gang' of folks would run into other 'gangs' and most likely fight it out rather than band together. Even if they banded together a larger group of people needs a larger amount of food AND water to sustain them. They can only move so fast to pillage and find a lesser and lesser amount of food as houses get farther and farther apart and what folks there are have already consumed what they had. If reduced to traveling on foot they can only carry so much ammo, tools of destruction and their raided supplies with them. If they were guiltless enough to kill or pillage for food what would keep them from turning on themselves for what little remains? Their numbers would dwindle also buy running into prey with weapons. Sure they would overpower their prey but at the loss of a few members. So, all in all I think those large hoards would be self limiting and slowly lose numbers.
> 
> Would they stay in a group and pillage house to house or break up in smaller groups and spread out? If they break up and reassemble daily that would make their progress much slower. How much would the smaller groups be willing to share with the whole group? I would think that they would fill themselves before sharing what little remained, if anything. If they are a mass of 100 and pillage in groups of 5 and they find 4 cans of food, would that small group turn all 4 in and take a chance on getting only a spoonful or eat 2 and turn 2 in or eat all 4 and say they found nothing? What if they get caught eating all the food they find and not sharing with the group? Will they get killed, punished or tossed out? Who decides who is in charge and in which direction they go? I think that the large group would have troubles staying together due to lots of things. That brings us back to dealing with small groups of predators and they would dwindle quickly as they encounter resistance and other predators.
> 
> As Bill mentioned, only the first groups to wander from the city would have anything to pillage. When the next wave comes along any homes or businesses they find will already be cleaned out.


I don't have any answers but maybe you could write some PAW?


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## BillM

Most of the city folks would starve , dehydrate, and/or die of sickness or homicide. There would be many sucicides.

People in rural communitys who regularly grow food in a small garden would fair better but a good number of them will die also from lack of medical care , overexertion ,starvation , sickness and homicide.

In less than a year 90% of the population will die.

It will be a brave new world for the survivers who will suddenly find themselves in possession of a lot of land and equipment to plant and harvest . there will also be aworld market for the crops. I see a return to an agri based sociaty.


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## machinist

It all depends on how bad things get, and how quickly. I foresee a need for people who can keep machinery running if supply lines fail. It won't matter what you do to get by for another day or two, if there are no supplies beyond that. If a prepper's personal supplies run out, they have a much bigger problem than just getting by for a few days, because that means the normal supply lines are not working. We might be able to eke out an existence on our own for a while, but the situation implies far greater problems. 

Anyone who has spaded up a small plot for a garden will tell you it is not the way to feed vast numbers of people. We can only support the numbers we do today by exploiting energy sources--diesel tractors, trucks, and trains. 

Those supply lines depend on Just-In-Time sources, from the mines and forests and farms to keep factories running, workers fed and clothed, materials shipped from halfway around the world and on-demand electrical power to make something as simple as a rubber fuel line, a gasket, or a critical small metal part. ANY GLITCH in the system means the part does not get made, nor delivered. Any something stops working. The tractors and combines stop working, the grain and meat does not get raised, and nobody has food. "For want of a horseshoe nail, a kingdom was lost."

Inventories have been cut to the bone, and beyond. Farm supply stores only carry the fastest selling items, because of the high investment required to keep parts and supplies on hand. Seeds, fertilizers, and all the chemicals used to produce a crop now are only produced in the nick of time to sell for the planting season. Imagine how many acres of land would go untended if the system goes down. 

Not only would the stores be bare in a couple days, but the supply line all the way back to the very beginning would grind to a halt without constant supplies of diesel fuel, electricity, an operating financial system, water supplies, and on and on.... 

I think 90% may be a conservative estimate regarding the die off in such a scenario. In the process, we would lose CRITICAL PERSONEL that could not be replaced in time to keep the entire civilization from grinding to a stop. If some of those people are the ones tending nuclear power plants, we could have a series of Fukushima's all over the world. 

Some have visions of a Little House on the Prairie existence in such a case, but I doubt if there are enough who understand how that works to make it happen. And, some of those would be lost in the die off. 

Fields left untended in our area will begin to revert to forest in 10 years. In 5 years, land would require a lot of work to remove fast growing brush and briars before they could be farmed again. If it goes that far, the world will never be the same again. 

TPTB may not understand this. And, the city gang who sets out to rob some guy on the street would not care if he was crucial to keeping their local power plant running. They would simply kill him and take what he has. 

Trade in such a world would be dangerous, very limited, and mostly all local. If a few of us can keep the food supply going, civilization might have a chance to survive. That's why I stock machinery parts, steel and other materials to keep farm equipment going. I would have to hire some help, and fast. After a certain period of chaos, I have no doubt that those dependent on me for their needs would be watching my back constantly, just as I would seek to protect them for my own needs.

It is the chaotic period I worry about. I don't foresee much trade going on until things settle down.


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## Canadian

Yeah but everyone who survives gets to start over.


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## LongRider

We are nearly completely self sustaining. If the grid went down permanently in about five years we would lose some of the comforts and luxuries we now have. We stock pile preserve food and resources in the event that our crops, livestock, hunting, fishing, harvesting and gathering fall short. Enough that we can regroup replant restart until we replenish whatever we used up. We know our area well enough that as long as there is life in them thar hills we won't starve.
Most of your options are one I would never consider. I know this to be true because I have known real hunger and deprivation in my life. Never ever has it occurred to me to steal, rob or cheat another of what is theirs to satisfy my needs. There are things more painful than hunger and worst than death. That said if enemy forces robbed me or deprived me of the ability to be self reliant. Than what is theirs is mine. I have no qualms about allowing evil to die for their beliefs.


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## machinist

The more people KNOW, the more options they have. The situation can limit those options, of course, but to the person who knows many ways to get his own meals, the less likely they will be to try taking from others.

Those who have the foresight to prepare will quickly realize that it is impossible to store enough to last forever, and seek to achieve ways to produce what they need on an ongoing basis. These ideas have been discussed at length on this forum, so it seems to me that those who would be worried about running out of supplies would the people who haven't yet gotten to the producing process. If so, it's time to work on that. 

The whole idea here is SELF reliance, not reliance on the status quo, not relying on stored items, but on you own ability to grow and make what you need. Seems obvious that is the measure of our success here. It is a matter of degree, probably best measured in the months or years you can make it without inputs from the status quo. 

There are many ways to achieve that sort of thing, and not all of them involve rural acreage, although the rural location also gets you away from the chaos of the cities. Some creative thinking can get you a long ways on the road to self reliance, wherever you are. That subject deserves its' own thread. 

I want to see more people learning how to take care of themselves without the need to take from others.


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## Canadian

machinist said:


> I want to see more people learning how to take care of themselves without the need to take from others.


The irony is that most people on here keep their preps a secret.

If they educated others on how plan ahead then they have one extra person on your team or at least someone who isn't going to loot you later on.


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## LongRider

machinist said:


> This poll does not include enough options, i.e., "None of the above" would have to be my answer.
> 
> If I cannot grow, make, repurpose, substitute, or trade for what we need, we had darn well better be able to do without it. Those who are thinking like this poll indicates, have a REALLY BIG problem.
> 
> The bottom line is, you cannot STORE enough to last forever, so the answer is to PRODUCE what you need, or be able to trade what you can produce for what you cannot. People need to focus on production. If they are not in a position to do that, it is well nigh time that they GET INTO THAT POSITION, whatever they choose to do.
> 
> Sitting in an apartment somewhere with a pallet of freeze dried food just ain't gonna cut it, long term. Better be thinking about that, and come up with some REAL answers for yourself. And "bugging out to the wilderness" is not a viable long term solution, either. There just is not enough wilderness to go around now, and would not ever be without a population cutback to that of something like 200 years ago. We MIGHT get by with population levels at 1850 level, IF those folks knew enough to properly utilize the available resources in an agrarian based society. Not likely in today's world.
> 
> Boy, am I going to get some flack for that remark! But I do believe what I said. Long term, the only real answer is to be productive. It is long past time to be thinking "sustainable" solutions, instead of short-term, "how do I eat today" thinking.
> 
> Yeah, I know, that doesn't fit into the backpack paradigm of today's "prepper" mentality. Too bad.
> 
> Please excuse me for now, 'cause I have 3 gardens to tend to, an orchard to prune, and some chickens to feed. I need to check water levels in the cistern and the irrigation tank, and sow some grass seed where the wood pile was last year. I have a sorghum mill to rebuild, and a wood splitter to finish building, too. Wife doesn't have time to help a lot because she is baking bread and drying eggs. Also need to trim around the fence, and spend some time with the guard dogs. Hint, hint, for those who may be eyeing our place.


Excellent bears repeating. You will get no flack from me as I agree. As I have often said if you are not self sustaining now, it is highly unlikely that you will able to be once SHTF.


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## LongRider

One thought, as I see this often, about how all the fish and game will be wiped out in short order because everyone will be out hunting and fishing. 

Do people assume that we are going to just let anyone come and steal our food and resources from our lands and territory? I live surrounded by over a million acres of pristine wilderness, folks that are not from around here would be making a fatal mistake if they assume they can come bug out here and help themselves our food and resources. Because every single inch of those million plus acres are already spoken for, used and earmarked by some one. We are not talking about a couple of extremest red neck survivalists but the general population of enter communities basically anyone who lives around or in wilderness areas. We hunt, fish,gather, harvest use that land now, we know that it can only sustain so much use. So stripping our lands of its resources is no more acceptable than robbing our gardens and chicken coops.


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## swjohnsey

I kinda figured federal lands belonged to me.


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## k0xxx

LongRider said:


> One thought, as I see this often, about how all the fish and game will be wiped out in short order because everyone will be out hunting and fishing. (snip)


I for one do not feel that fish and game would be depleted quickly. It may happen, but probably over a longer period of time. During the 1930's, most of the North American population was rural, and hunting was a part of life. For that reason there is more deer, turkey, and other game today than during the 1930's, according to the US Wildlife Service. Nowadays, 90% of the US population doesn't hunt or even have the slightest inkling of how to hunt. If it's not from McDonald's or the frozen food section, the chances are that they won't know how to deal with it.

Your average street punk might spray and pray, get lucky, and bring down a deer if he even sees one, but he's not going to know how to clean it properly or preserve it. He's certainly not going to be able to carry enough ammo to repeat the process very often. Also, a 9mm or AK is not exactly a small game weapon, so rabbits and squirrels can breath a sigh of relief.

Just my thoughts.


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## Wellrounded

k0xxx said:


> I for one do not feel that fish and game would be depleted quickly. It may happen, but probably over a longer period of time. During the 1930's, most of the North American population was rural, and hunting was a part of life. For that reason there is more deer, turkey, and other game today than during the 1930's, according to the US Wildlife Service. Nowadays, 90% of the US population doesn't hunt or even have the slightest inkling of how to hunt. If it's not from McDonald's or the frozen food section, the chances are that they won't know how to deal with it.
> 
> Your average street punk might spray and pray, get lucky, and bring down a deer if he even sees one, but he's not going to know how to clean it properly or preserve it. He's certainly not going to be able to carry enough ammo to repeat the process very often. Also, a 9mm or AK is not exactly a small game weapon, so rabbits and squirrels can breath a sigh of relief.
> 
> Just my thoughts.


I think the same kind of thing in my locale. We have a few hunters and they'd feed their families while they had ammo but not sure how long they'd get around easily (fuel). Even the experienced hunters tend to drive around here, not a lot of long distance hiking/carrying happens. There would be plenty of areas that are a bit isolated that wouldn't get hunted out in a hurry. 
I'm in a fibre sheep/cropping area and it'd be the sheep that would end up in the pot first. The person to sheep ratio here is kinda high.... Just one of our neighbours has something like 20,000 head and more like 40,000 when the rain falls. I'm not too worried about the surrounds being hunted out for a while.
On the other hand any other food type will get scarce really quick. Grain is stored here in massive amounts, not in silos but under tarps, without people to maintain these the grain will be damaged pretty quickly.... 12 months later there would be no grain harvest. Vegies and dairy would all be gone in weeks if not earlier. There would be a few locals milking what ever cows/goats they could get their hands on and there are areas that were market vegetable gardens in times past, but all that would take time and cooperation.


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## UncleJoe

Canadian said:


> The irony is that most people on here keep their preps a secret.
> 
> If they educated others on how plan ahead then they have one extra person on your team or at least someone who isn't going to loot you later on.


The only problem with that line of thought is; most people aren't interested in learning how to do for themselves. At least that's been my experience over the last 5 years. As long as there is a McD's open and the grocery store has full shelves, folks just don't care to learn how to raise, grow and preserve there own food.


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## swjohnsey

I'll be O.K. 'til the King Ranch runs out of cows or my chainsaw runs out of gas.


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## Canadian

If the chainsaw runs out of gas you'll be okay as long as you still have your axe and a hockey mask.


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