# Mental conundrum: turning people away



## bkt (Oct 10, 2008)

In keeping with the earlier "first place to raid" post, I present this notion:

How would you deal with family or close friends who, at the onset of a particularly nasty event, showed up at your door saying "I remember you saying you prepare for such events. Can we come in?"

Obviously, if it's a short-term event and you have ample supplies to go around and there are no requirements you can't meet, you'll almost certainly take them in. I sure would.

But oh boy would I have a heart-to-heart talk with them afterward.

Many of us have run into "I know whose house I'm going to if things fall apart" by folks who don't get it.

So...in the event of a LONG term situation with limited supplies, how do you deal with life-long friends and other loved ones who laughed at your comments years ago but now rely on your generosity to share your stores?

The moral angle says you share what you have. The pragmatic angle says you try to get as many of them to prep for themselves as you can BEFORE the S hits the fan. What about the leftovers? What about those who DID prep but had their preps wiped out? Do you risk your immediate family to going without and show compassion to those you love? Or...not?


----------



## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

Some would be let in, some would be turned away, and still others it would depend what they had to bring to the table. For example, I'm no longer able to hunt. A friend of mine is a good hunter and a gardner. I'd hate to see him at the front door but he would be an asset in a SHTF situation.


----------



## k0xxx (Oct 27, 2011)

Basically for us, most family would be allowed to stay providing that they agree to follow a set of rules that we have already made up. There are certain family members that would never be allowed to stay, because of their predisposition to stealing, drugs, etc. They know who they are and have never been to out home or alternate BOL's. Anyone not willing to follow the rules would be wished well on their continued journey.


----------



## bkt (Oct 10, 2008)

k0xxx said:


> Basically for us, most family would be allowed to stay providing that they agree to follow a set of rules that we have already made up. There are certain family members that would never be allowed to stay, because of their predisposition to stealing, drugs, etc. They know who they are and have never been to out home or alternate BOL's. Anyone not willing to follow the rules would be wished well on their continued journey.


I guess what I'm asking is have you (all) given thought to telling Uncle Dave and Aunt Laura "Sorry, you ridiculed me and my beliefs for years. I tried to tell you you were wrong and to take responsibility for yourselves. Now you want me to take care of you. I can't. I'm sorry. Goodbye. Good luck."

Even if these people helped raise you...if they loved you with all their heart...and if you loved them! Would you turn them away or accept them with their foibles.

I've already told my family and friends that if they don't prepare for their needs now there's no room for them with me under any circumstances. But I still question whether I'd turn away a loved one who never prepared or accept an acquaintance who had but was someone I didn't get along with.

It's not so clear-cut for me.


----------



## Gians (Nov 8, 2012)

This part---> "I remember you saying you prepare for such events. ", never happens, so other than a very short list of family I'd invite, no one should show up at my door. I usually don't answer anyway


----------



## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

I Timothy 5:8....Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

The end.

Why does this topic always stop at this juncture? here? Finish the topic---
How long are you prepared to feed the first two, then their family, that will eventually get to the entire neighborhood and their families??

Why even get that started?? You can't save the neighborhood---so??


----------



## squerly (Aug 17, 2012)

I've told my BNL & SNL that we are willing to store emergency supplies on their behalf, they just need to send them to us on a monthly basis. Even told them that (to make it easier) I will purchase stuff for them if they send the money. But they have done nothing. We talk about what everyone will do and what to expect when it all falls apart, but still they do nothing. I will turn them away. Period. 

Other relatives will be harder. We love our niece (8 yrs old) and her mom/dad. They have no clue and are useless in any survival situation, but we love them and have planned for their needs in our preparations. 

My 3 sons and their family's are a mixed bag. None have enough money to prep much, just trying to stay alive from month to month as it is. 1 has excellent firearms skills, one is scary strong with martial arts ability, and one is useless. I can use the skills of 2 out of 3 and we will teach the useless one as we go.

All others will have to fend for themselves. They are all adults with the ability to make decisions on their own and if they have failed to pay attention then there is little I can do. 

In all seriousness, I doubt any of them would make it to my compound anyhow as I'm almost 500 miles away and I just don't see them having the means of traveling that distance considering the hazards that they are sure to encounter.

BTW, I go by Squerly and I live in the mountains of North Carolina. Greetings all! :wave:


----------



## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

Hi Squerly, welcome and thanks for the post.


----------



## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

We've had a few threads on this, but I think the topic is worth revisiting.

My immediate family is a family of four, but I am preparing for 16. For the most part, that covers those in the immediate area. I generally don't discuss the matter outside of that group at all and many of the folks in the group don't know I am preparing for them.

I also have mutual agreements with some extended family outside the area to act as their BOL and vice versa. They would be expected to bring what they could if that plan were activated.

If you're outside that group and show up at the door I'll wish you well, but the only way I'd consider letting you join is as a replacement for someone who didn't make it.


----------



## k0xxx (Oct 27, 2011)

bkt said:


> I guess what I'm asking is have you (all) given thought to telling Uncle Dave and Aunt Laura "Sorry, you ridiculed me and my beliefs for years. I tried to tell you you were wrong and to take responsibility for yourselves. Now you want me to take care of you. I can't. I'm sorry. Goodbye. Good luck."
> 
> Even if these people helped raise you...if they loved you with all their heart...and if you loved them! Would you turn them away or accept them with their foibles.
> 
> ...


We have a core group of family members that do prepare, and have already positioned supplies here. I would not turn away Uncle Dave and Aunt Laura unless they would not agree to the rules we have set forth. In their most basic form, the rules are that everyone does what they can to the best of their abilities. Even if Aunt Laura is too old to work in the garden, she can read to the small children and help keep them occupied while other adults work. Maybe she can shell beans, if there are no children. The point is that everyone has something to contribute, and as long as they are willing to do so, they won't be turned away.

Of course only so many can survive on the resources we have put back and those that we can raise on our own. That is why we have been planning and preparing for extended family for the last 15 years. We will never be 100% ready for a total SHTF situation, but we get closer every day.


----------



## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

JayJay said:


> I Timothy 5:8....Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.


I see this scripture often in this type of thread, and while you and I might agree, I think it is important to point out that 1 Timothy 5 is about Widows, Elders and Slaves. 1 Timothy 5:3 even says 'Take care of any widow who has no one else to care for her.' Mark 12:31 says 'Love your neighbor as yourself. No other commandment is greater than these.' I don't believe the bible would support turning anyone away. Fortunately we have free will and unearned, unmerited favor.


----------



## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

*The Answer is NO.*

Our relatives know the score. I have helped them before in times of need, but following that they did NOTHING to help themselves. When their next "need" came around, I was conspicuously absent.

I don't have any lifelong friends who do not think as I do. I can count my good friends on the fingers of one hand. My friends provide for themselves. The rest have no place here and they know it.

Too many people allow social pressures to influence their good judgement. If, according to some religious precepts, this costs me in the hereafter, then so be it. Because I know what those beggars are 'here after' if they come begging at my house.

I visited this topic in a fiction story, "Told Ya So!" http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f55/new-told-ya-so-24196/

The story was intended to cause people to think about this topic. It is much better to have it thought out ahead of time.

As to free will, there are so many pressures on people that I question how much free will we actually have now. There is social pressure, media brainwashing, propaganda brainwashing, the public school system, and many other "systems" in our society that conspire to take away free will. I see it as being there in theory only. In practice, most people at least ACT like they do not have free will. So many people make so many bad choices and are so predictable doing so that it makes me doubt if they have free will at all.


----------



## PurpleHeartJarhead (Mar 23, 2014)

JayJay said:


> I Timothy 5:8....Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
> 
> The end.
> 
> ...


God helps those who help themselves_._


----------



## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

I seem to recall that Noah shut the door of the ark when it started raining.


----------



## Wellrounded (Sep 25, 2011)

k0xxx said:


> Basically for us, most family would be allowed to stay providing that they agree to follow a set of rules that we have already made up. There are certain family members that would never be allowed to stay, because of their predisposition to stealing, drugs, etc. They know who they are and have never been to out home or alternate BOL's. Anyone not willing to follow the rules would be wished well on their continued journey.





k0xxx said:


> We have a core group of family members that do prepare, and have already positioned supplies here. I would not turn away Uncle Dave and Aunt Laura unless they would not agree to the rules we have set forth. In their most basic form, the rules are that everyone does what they can to the best of their abilities. Even if Aunt Laura is too old to work in the garden, she can read to the small children and help keep them occupied while other adults work. Maybe she can shell beans, if there are no children. The point is that everyone has something to contribute, and as long as they are willing to do so, they won't be turned away.
> 
> Of course only so many can survive on the resources we have put back and those that we can raise on our own. That is why we have been planning and preparing for extended family for the last 15 years. We will never be 100% ready for a total SHTF situation, but we get closer every day.[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


----------



## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

machinist said:


> I seem to recall that Noah shut the door of the ark when it started raining.


Good point.

When a ship sinks you try to fill the lifeboats to capacity. Once you have reached capacity you reject all others. You may even go so far as to kill someone that insists on climbing in. Too many people will sink the lifeboat and the provisions will only go so far. As harsh as that may sound it is the law. Each lifeboat can only save so many or you wind up saving none.

You can't save everyone, do what you can for the few you can. Some that I send away I will send with charity, others I will just send away. As much as I can I'll quietly provide food to a local church that has a soup kitchen.


----------



## jeff47041 (Jan 5, 2013)

That is a really tough one. On one hand, I am one of ten children. We are all adults with our own families. But we are a very close family. We all live within a couple of miles of each other, along with a lot of our kids, nieces, nephews, and now great nieces and nephews.
We prep for as many as we can and would not turn any family away. This is why we're here.
My problem in that thinking is that my daughter in law has her relatives. My son in law has his family. My soon to be son in law has a family. How far do I let this keep growing? At family get togethers, we number close to 100 people. Tomorrow, my oldest grand daughter will make her first communion. Just this little get together will have at least 40 people at my house. It's just what we do as a close knit family.
We have talked about all bringing everything to my one brothers place and turn that place into a fort that is safe for all of us.


----------



## millertimedoneright (May 13, 2013)

Depends on how useful you will be to me. My parents have years of food stored plus a large farm and cattle. My brother is the resident fix it all and mechanic(never met a harder working man). My wife and I have the stores of propane, toilet paper, canned goods, weapons, bullets, seeds, etc. I have a cousin that is part of our group. He could find food if you put him on the moon. He also has many guns and weapons. Then their is my grandma. Goofy as they come with Alzheimer's but we love her so she is invited. A buddy of mine and his wife. Great all around at hunting, farming, old trades, old crafts, sound mechanic, electrician, and his wife has a medical background. Most of us have kids that will be given less important daily chores. Anyone fed will earn their keep except grandma. Only way we will take in extras is if you have something we need or a very handy set of skills.


Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


----------



## jeff47041 (Jan 5, 2013)

millertimedoneright said:


> Depends on how useful you will be to me. My parents have years of food stored plus a large farm and cattle. My brother is the resident fix it all and mechanic(never met a harder working man). My wife and I have the stores of propane, toilet paper, canned goods, weapons, bullets, seeds, etc. I have a cousin that is part of our group. He could find food if you put him on the moon. He also has many guns and weapons. Then their is my grandma. Goofy as they come with Alzheimer's but we love her so she is invited. A buddy of mine and his wife. Great all around at hunting, farming, old trades, old crafts, sound mechanic, electrician, and his wife has a medical background. Most of us have kids that will be given less important daily chores. Anyone fed will earn their keep except grandma. Only way we will take in extras is if you have something we need or a very handy set of skills.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


Just curious. Does this buddy of yours, and his wife have family, and a grandma, and a couple of aunts? That's what I mean about my family. My wife would expect her brother and sister to come. Her brother has a wife. The wife has parents and sisters. The sisters are married, so they have families.

All of these people would want their family to be together and take care of them. Where do you draw the line?

My daughter in law has parents, a married sister and a brother. She would not just abandon them and come be with us. But my son needs to be here with his wife. So am I supposed to allow her extended family to come too, or risk losing my son because he has to stay with his wife to protect and provide for her?

This is ALWAYS my conundrum when I start thinking about who is invited here. It's not just my party...


----------



## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

When the non prepared show up put them to work right away, a 2 man saw and a pile of logs, a barrel and some dirty laundry , the handle of a well pump, a pitch fork and shed full of $hitty bedding straw, Then if they shut up and work give them a chance. If they don't want to work ....... lack of personal responsibility and accountability is what causes the wrecks in the first place.


----------



## millertimedoneright (May 13, 2013)

My buddy's dad, wife, and kids would be the only ones he would possibly bring and other than the kids they would all be useful and have certain qualifications and preps they will bring along. I specifically chose only people with limited amounts of "tag alongs" for this very reason. I have many friends that would make great additions until you look at who would be along for the ride with them. Between my parents farm and my property I figure we can house and feed roughly 20 people comfortably so that's my limit.


Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


----------



## HillbillyGirl (May 5, 2011)

I agree with Tirediron - put them to work.

I'm lucky enough to come from a family of hard workers with an expertise in various fields - farming, hunting/fishing, construction, wilderness survival, arms experts, etc. After experiencing the the 2004 hurricane season in Florida, our family has become well aware of the what needs to be done and how to go about getting it done (in that situation). We have discussed the particulars and in those discussions we all agree that we take care of ourselves first, within our immediate group.

We underestimate ourselves on what our metal status will be in a situation - I honestly believe hard limits will be set when you think you couldn't in order to survive and to take care of your own.


----------



## ras1219como (Jan 15, 2013)

The only family I have close by are my parents and they prep. The biggest issue for me will be friends. Those that know I'm a prepper (and aren't preppers themselves) also know not to come to my house. A few would be welcomed because they have important skills. The others will be turned away, by force if necessary, and they know it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum. Please forgive typos.


----------



## k0xxx (Oct 27, 2011)

As for extended family, their in-laws, etc., we have discussed this within the core group and everyone has agreed. Each family unit will bring immediate family only (with a few minor exceptions). A limited number of other (family) can be brought by each family group providing they are the responsibility of those bringing them, and not the group as a whole. 

When we first started setting up our core group we had one family group back out because they wanted to bring quite a large number of in-laws with them, and they were told it wasn't possible. It caused some hard feelings for a while. They started setting up there own group and quickly saw how fast it could grow out of hand with too many. They later apologized and have a separate BOL about 125 miles from ours. It worked out well in the long run, in that it took some pressure off of this group.

This has been discussed within our group many times, and it usually comes down to what type of situation that we are in. There are many possible scenarios that would cause us to alter our plans regarding who else is allowed to stay and who isn't. The best we can do is to discuss these situations and the changes that may be needed, then try to come to an agreement as to what we may do. Our group meets twice a year for to discuss these type of things and other preparations that are needed, but mainly as an excuse to BBQ obscene amounts of meat, dig into huge pots of Gumbo and Jambalaya, and to dive into many bottles of liquid refreshment.


----------



## rugster (Mar 2, 2014)

I can't imagine turning away immediate family & close friends. 

Others, yes.


----------



## BillS (May 30, 2011)

We have a year's supply of food and water for 4 people. We live in an area where the soil is rocky. Even if we could grow crops there are too many people around who would see them.

If people show up at the door unexpectedly I'll pray about it. If I don't get a clear indication from God to let them in then I won't go to the door.

There are relatives, friends, in-laws, and church people that know we prep. I tried waking people up at first but I gave up when no one listened. So I know there are a number of people who know we prep besides people that those people told. 

We don't know how long the collapse will last but God knows. If we feel led to do so, we'll take in a bunch of people with the confidence that we'll have enough food for as long as we'll need it. If it only lasts 6 months then we'd have enough food for 8 people. It just depends.

I believe that the pretribulation Rapture will happen sometime after the collapse. I believe the collapse will bring about enough chaos to lead to the one world government prophesied in various parts of the Bible like Daniel, the first three gospels, and Revelation. 

The more I volunteer at the animal shelter the more I want to rescue some cats when the economy gets so bad that the shelter is going to close. We no longer have contact with my stepson and his family. We might have enough extra cat food and litter for 4 more cats but I'm not sure how much chaos that would cause with the 2 we already have. Our black cat will look out the window and growl at the mailman when he walks by. That concerns me.

I feel bad for the some of the cats at the shelter. Some of them will purr if you're just close to their cage and you look at them. Some of the older ones have been there for a long time. Earlier in the week I sat in a room with some older cats. I spent 30 minutes straight petting one cat with my left hand and one cat with my right hand. The girl cat purred the whole time. Then she went into her bed which was just a foot or two from me. The purring got softer and softer until she went to sleep. 

I don't know what I'll do when I know that the cats I like will die if I don't take them home. I can't save them all but on any given day there can be 6 to 8 that I would adopt if I could. I could take in more cats if they were smaller or older cats that eat less but I don't know if they could defend themselves against our young adult cats that have all their claws. Or I could take in fewer cats that were young enough and big enough to defend themselves. I don't know what I'm going to do but that subject is on my mind constantly.


----------



## readytogo (Apr 6, 2013)

*Saying No Period.*

This issue has come up before, I think in every forum, is not an easy decision to make the turning away of another human in desperate times, especially with children, we all have family members and friends that look down on Us for been or trying to stay ahead for those unexpected emergencies, for many is natural to be cynical but harsh times call for harsh measurements and if after trying to explain the reason why you prepare and they should also prepare does not sink in, then you can also be cynical, the story of Noah comes to mind .Another problem is that if you take money from the unbelievers for the purpose of buying supplies you will be doing double work and then it becomes a commitment to actually served them ,I think that is a big mistake, there can only be one captain in the ship and there comes a time to say NO, especially after guidance was given.
Case in point here; after Hurricane Andrew in Miami I had given ample warnings before hand to my dear and departed friend and neighbor, he came looking for propane and ice, I had 400 gallons , 40 gallons of gasoline plus a full gas tank and two coolers full of ice by the way, my answer was NO, his wife got really mad at him because she knew that I had given him plenty of talks on the issue, his son who kept telling me that nothing would happen also got caught with his pants down. Later after he and son spend hours looking for propane, I let him use a 20 pounder but lesson was learn.
Saying no will be hard at the beginning but deep in your gut you know that you try your best to give guidance that was actually decline and you were probably ridicule.


----------



## millertimedoneright (May 13, 2013)

For every one the answer will be different. The key for me will be: how can you help the group? Do I have enough food, supplies, housing, property, etc to sustain the added person/persons? Do you have preps that you will add to the groups? Will you be able to put in a hard days labor everyday? Can you do what jobs you are assigned daily by the group?


Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


----------



## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

PurpleHeartJarhead said:


> God helps those who help themselves_._


Just so you know that saying is not Christian or biblical, even though it is commonly believed to be. The saying comes from ancient Greece (Aesop) and it applied to the Greek Gods of the time. So if you worship Zeus or Hades, then by all means that motto is a good one for you. But if you are Christian the bible tells us in Proverbs 28:26 "Those who trust in themselves are fools, but those who walk in (biblical) wisdom are kept safe."


----------



## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

I am planning to default bug out because of the particulars of my situation. But any family friends who turn up at my BOL are welcome. In fact I tell them when I experience that "I know where I am going..." conversation to bring as much food, water, meds, guns, and ammo. Of course the people I have these conversations with are people I hope will come anyway and I often invite them to bring specialized supplies they have access to.


Assuming we can survive that first year you are going to need people to have a division of labor between security, agriculture, maintenance, and home making.


----------



## doubleTHICK (Jun 19, 2012)

This is why you have the talk with them NOW. I have been in the same situation as most here; I'll just come to your place...

I sat these people down (family and not) talked to them eye-to-eye like an adult. I explained to them that I am very eager and unbelievably willing to help them prepare at whatever level they feel comfortable, now. I told them they are NOT welcome if something happens. I told them to NOT count on me having a change of heart. I told them they WILL be turned away without any hesitation. I then made them repeat back to me what they thought they heard me tell them. (My Aunt finally got it after the 5th repeat - no BS, it took 5 times fro her to understand)

The next stage in this process is how could I do something like that, turn them away? The best answer I gave (probably the best answer anyone could give) was that I am going to do something better than letting them move in with me when SHTF. I agreed to help them setup a realistic plan customized to them. I will do ALL the footwork. I will do everything. All that is needed form them is money and a weekend to go over new found emergency plan.

To this very day as I am writing this . . . . . . NOT A SINGLE ONE of them has taken me up on the offer.

So yeah, I will have zero issues turning them away.


----------



## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

My problem is not in turning people away. I can only do so much and I know my limitations. My problem is convincing my wife that her friends are bringing nothing to the table. These are people that I like. They have dismissed my efforts to open their eyes. One was even a Mormon for a while. I know they will show up.


----------



## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

doubleTHICK said:


> This is why you have the talk with them NOW. I have been in the same situation as most here; I'll just come to your place...
> 
> I sat these people down (family and not) talked to them eye-to-eye like an adult. I explained to them that I am very eager and unbelievably willing to help them prepare at whatever level they feel comfortable, now. I told them they are NOT welcome if something happens. I told them to NOT count on me having a change of heart. I told them they WILL be turned away without any hesitation. I then made them repeat back to me what they thought they heard me tell them. (My Aunt finally got it after the 5th repeat - no BS, it took 5 times fro her to understand)
> 
> ...


That's unfortunate, but not surprising. The bigger surprise would be if they all started prepping. When you get a response of "I'll come to your house." what you're really hearing is denial that there is a problem, not a serious response. 99% of the population doesn't really consider the future. They're more concerned with right now. That's just the way people are wired.

If you're going to try to convince someone to prep then you need to first convince them that things can go wrong. Who cares if you won't let them in if something goes wrong when nothing is going to go wrong?

In 2011 we had two 3 day long power outages. I bought a generator. Then in 2012 we had Hurricane Sandy and that gave us an 8 day outage. Want to guess how many of my neighbors have bought generators since? They still haven't figured out they need to prepare for power outages due to weather, let alone anything else.


----------



## PurpleHeartJarhead (Mar 23, 2014)

Sentry18 said:


> Just so you know that saying is not Christian or biblical, even though it is commonly believed to be. The saying comes from ancient Greece (Aesop) and it applied to the Greek Gods of the time. So if you worship Zeus or Hades, then by all means that motto is a good one for you. But if you are Christian the bible tells us in Proverbs 28:26 "Those who trust in themselves are fools, but those who walk in (biblical) wisdom are kept safe."


Correct, it is not from the bible. The reading you gave tells us to trust in The Lord.

Where ever the origins of my quote, does it not speak directly to what preppers are doing? The point is not that you cannot or should not help others, it rather that you and I have/are doing the work of helping ourselves.

Those who would do NOTHING to help themselves, spiritually, mentally physically, or otherwise, would have a difficult time in my household in SHTF world.

Sent telepathically through my thumbs to my iPhone using Survival Forum


----------



## lazydaisy67 (Nov 24, 2011)

I don't think my side of the family would venture as far as here for anything. I'd gladly welcome my oldest brother because he's still in very good shape, has amazing skills in a lot of areas and would be a valuable asset to any group. My middle brother is one of those who thinks that as long as he has a big gun, he'll just be able to take whatever he needs from anybody and everybody around him. Sees no reason to put anything away as long as he has ammo. He would be turned away from my house without question either in a pine box or otherwise. Part of the biggest reason is his attitude, but some of it is because he's got some serious health issues that I couldn't even begin to address or care for. They're serious enough that I have little worry he'd be live through making the trip to my house. The youngest brother probably wouldn't head my way because I'm sure he'd be in the Cayman Islands long before any serious 'collapse' occurred in the states.
DH's side may or may not show up. There's really only one sibling out of 5 that would be able to contribute something. I'd welcome them and their kids. The others would NOT get along with a group who needed to work for their food, they would also bring some morals and values to my place that wouldn't be tolerated by us for very long.
Neighbors, acquaintances, and even some relatively close friends would be turned away. As hard as that would be and as harsh as it sounds, I cannot choose between a neighbor that I barely talk to (if ever) and my children. I won't do it. Friends would be tough, but I have 3 REALLY close friends who know what I do and have come up with one reason or another for the last two years why they simply cannot put anything extra on the shelf, all while buying the latest i-phone, or getting monthly pedis or paying for ukulele lessons (not kidding) . I would feel very bad for them and their children but they could not stay. Whether or not I'd be willing to use force to get them to leave I guess is another question altogether.


----------



## Wellrounded (Sep 25, 2011)

Tirediron said:


> When the non prepared show up put them to work right away, a 2 man saw and a pile of logs, a barrel and some dirty laundry , the handle of a well pump, a pitch fork and shed full of $hitty bedding straw, Then if they shut up and work give them a chance. If they don't want to work ....... lack of personal responsibility and accountability is what causes the wrecks in the first place.


^^^^^^ THIS.

I have tried to spend time working with each person that I think may turn up here. Working with someone gives you a lot of information about what you'll be up against when the time comes.

I've been surprised at how far off I have been with what I thought people would be like. The latest was one of hubbies oldest friends, he's comes to visit quite often for short stays and we've always got on really well. Last time he stayed for 4 days, he wanted to help out. He'd still be welcome BUT he's not as capable or as easy to work with as I thought. He is a city boy but felt it necessary to tell us how to build a fence and sow crops.... not a good start as I really have a problem with smart a$$es. His 'working day' is about 40 minutes and that nearly killed him . He also had a serious problem with improvising, his answer to everything was going to town and buying something. Not what I thought he'd be like at all. He did do the dishes for me after dinner, lovely  BUT his 15 year old daughter was allowed to sit in the lounge room on her phone while this happened. AND he didn't take his shoes off to come inside.... about the only thing I ask of visitors and for me is very disrespectful. His idea of bringing 'supplies' was booze and sweets, lots of sweets. 
I have rethought how I would deal with him showing up here and will change a few things I had planned. Much better to learn this stuff now than when things are not so easy to manage.
I should add that NONE of the people I expect may turn up are preppers or prepared in any way. I know that and have prepped for them as well as I can.


----------



## crabapple (Jan 1, 2012)

PurpleHeartJarhead said:


> Correct, it is not from the bible. The reading you gave tells us to trust in The Lord.
> 
> Where ever the origins of my quote, does it not speak directly to what preppers are doing? The point is not that you cannot or should not help others, it rather that you and I have/are doing the work of helping ourselves.
> 
> ...


I believe this is truth, even if it is not in the bible.
I told my wife & daughter if they wanted asparagus, they could cut it themselves.
My wife is a Walmart gardener: "She likes to find the vegetables clean, fresh & ready to cook on the counter."
If I am in the garden, then I can pick the fruit & vegetables, but no one should wait on me, go get what you need, when you need it.
I plant, mulch,water,weed & pick, also clean & cook some times.
It will not hurt other to pick, clean & cook.
If I feel this way about the ones closest to me, then all other best have a plan that does not rotate around me.
I would not mine being remembered as the guy who sometime have more fruit then he can process or eat, but not the Chief Chef.
I say all the time ""REMEMBER THE LITTLE RED HEN""
If someone ask for food, then I ask can you chop wood or dig ditches?
There is a skill for everyone.
Two hour hard labor = one meal.

Remember the person guarding the pantry will shot you so he can eat!


----------



## doubleTHICK (Jun 19, 2012)

I ask this with no facetiousness whatsoever, why this need to accept people?
Does it boil down to a moralistic determination or some way to quote a scripture or two?

As I read thru some of the responses I get the perception of it being almost a _duty_ to bring someone in to a group. There is usually qualifying criteria or a labor/barter system that is agreed upon first. 
Why is it part of your preps? Do you see it being likely that you will get individuals at your door wanting to join?

I realize I have a lot of questions in this post but I just don't see this being an issue. I certainly don't see it as a duty of mine to plan/worry about other individuals in this capacity. If I spread the word - the good word of preparing- or answer any question I am able on the topic am I not also helping? 
If this is a moralistic dilemma why is context even a consideration? I make it a point to volunteer with after school tutoring or helping with yard work for those they may not have the means. This isn't a pat on my back thing but why wait until the S has hit the fan. Accept helping people now. I'm trying to find one other person in my immediate area to help with a free class that deals with being better prepared. Everything from making sure your refrigerator is maintained properly to understanding what is likely to happen in the area. Point is why wait if it is something you feel you must do in their time of need.

***Not trying to stir things up*** Seriously. I like to stay open-minded and to understand the other side but I cant wrap my head around the idea of why it is my responsibility to worry/prepare/plan for these people.


----------



## k0xxx (Oct 27, 2011)

_Of course, our plans depends on the situation. Generally our plans evolve around a scenario of financial meltdown, pandemic, or some other national scale event that would be recoverable within a decade or so. Events on the scale of a nuclear war would quickly alter our actions and responses._

For myself it comes down to family and, except in certain cases, I personally couldn't turn close family away. We have a good core family group that actively prepare and we have a few that are just scraping by and do what they can. Putting back 6 months of provisions is just not a viable option for them in the near term given their situation, but they are good people and they know how to work. We also have a few that do not prepare, but we could never turn them away (my mother and an aunt being among them).

Once we get past close family, it gets a lot "iffier". Also we, like a lot of families, have a few individuals that I will not allow in my home. They have proven themselves to be untrustworthy time and time again and they would present a danger to the rest of the group.


----------



## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

doubleTHICK said:


> I ask this with no facetiousness whatsoever, why this need to accept people?
> 
> As I read thru some of the responses I get the perception of it being almost a _duty_ to bring someone in to a group. .


There are probably as many reasons as there are preppers. I think it boils down to humans being a social animal. We talk to people that we care about. I'm sure you have too. Once in a while we make a convert but for the most part we are not so lucky. We accept that there are certain people that can't or won't prep. Most of these will get turned away. There are certain people that we are so emotionally attached to that we accept the responsibility to prep for if we can afford it.

We don't need an extra camp stove but we do need things like TP and food.


----------



## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

I am planning for family. I am sure all of us have family members that are not into prepping, or don't have the funds for prepping. I'm not going to turn them away and I recognize that, so I've just included them in my planning without really discussing it with them. When they show up, I'll be ready to accommodate them. If it turns out they've been prepping without my knowing it, or bring some resources I didn't expect, so much the better.


----------



## talob (Sep 16, 2009)

Geek999 said:


> I am planning for family. I am sure all of us have family members that are not into prepping, or don't have the funds for prepping. I'm not going to turn them away and I recognize that, so I've just included them in my planning without really discussing it with them. When they show up, I'll be ready to accommodate them. If it turns out they've been prepping without my knowing it, or bring some resources I didn't expect, so much the better.


Thats exactly what what we are doing, best case scenario is they all show up but I doubt it they're six hundred miles away, but I want to be ready just in case got a looong way to go.


----------



## dixiemama (Nov 28, 2012)

What helps us is no one on my aide knows where we live and cldnt find us if they tried. What hurts us is Es family knows it well and 95% are complete sheep. My family will be brought here bc they offer skills. His family will show up with kids in front and hands out. 

Our group is 22 divided into 6 smaller groups. We all prep for our core group (us and 3 kids plus babies), sis in law and her 3 kids, other sis and her hubs (they will be a prob-they don't have much and are lazy), in laws (will die in a long term shtf, too many meds they can't store long term), friend and her family of 3. 

To prep for anymore would be very difficult. We have talked to Es family and told them they are on their own if it's bad. They don't know the whole shebang, but know we have some animals and garden. Our big herd isn't anywhere close for them to see.


----------



## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

I feel no obligation to take food out of my children's mouths to give to ANYONE else under any circumstances, period & whoever would have the audacity to ask me is neither my friend nor loving family member. I feel no need to "convert" anyone to prepping. I keep my mouth shut about what I do & what I have so there'll be no folks showing up looking for handouts. I don't understand how prepping for your family then blabbing about it to folks you can't/won't be feeding post SHTF is any better of a plan than not prepping at all. We're prepping for 16 plus the ability to help neighbors just for security reasons, but ONLY hubby & I know the extent of our preps & only our 2 grown kids & my best friend know we prep at all. When TSHTF, last thing I want is to wonder who is going to show up, who all knows about my supplies, who they're going to tell, who/how many are going to try to take what I have (& when are they going to show up) & who I'm gonna have to shoot to keep the supplies I need for my family. All because someone can't keep their pie hole shut. I prep to make things easier on me & my loved ones when TSHTF.


----------



## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

We've got two topics here. One is what to do with various sets of folks if they show up. That was the original question. The other question is the problem of OPSEC vs. Trying to convince others to prep, improving the overall level of preparedness.

I've been able to not say much because I don't really think many of the others I am prepping for can do much, so why convince them of the need to do something they can't do anyhow? If you've got family that hasn't seen the need but does have the ability to prep, you've got a tougher conversation in front of you.


----------



## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

If no one knows you prep, why would they show up to your house when TSHTF? :dunno: We're all probably in the position of caring about more people than we can prep for. The bottom line is we have to make choices & sometimes those choices are set based on the size of our house/storage, how much farmable land we have, how much water we have available, etc. Hubby & I have already made the decision as to where our loyalties lie, we prep for those people, the rest are on their own. I don't feel bad about not giving them supplies & I'm sure they won't feel bad about not giving me anything either. It's a sad thing but if we have a major, long term SHTF situation, we will lose a lot of good people. I have no control over that. I can, however, make sure my kids are not among the lost.


----------



## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

tsrwivey said:


> If no one knows you prep, why would they show up to your house when TSHTF? :dunno: We're all probably in the position of caring about more people than we can prep for. The bottom line is we have to make choices & sometimes those choices are set based on the size of our house/storage, how much farmable land we have, how much water we have available, etc. Hubby & I have already made the decision as to where our loyalties lie, we prep for those people, the rest are on their own. I don't feel bad about not giving them supplies & I'm sure they won't feel bad about not giving me anything either. It's a sad thing but if we have a major, long term SHTF situation, we will lose a lot of good people. I have no control over that. I can, however, make sure my kids are not among the lost.


What I have done is told certain family members, typically one per nuclear family unit, that in an emergency they should come to us. Even without that, they'd probably turn to us anyhow because we are family.

I don't think they need any more discussion than that unless I am requesting they do something to get ready.

I have approximately 16 that I would expect to show up because they are local. There are people I care for who are hundreds of miles away that are the mutual BOLs I have spoken of. If any of them show up I'll be welcoming the help. More likely I'll be trying to bring my resources to their locations as they are more rural than I.

With a different mix of family and locations, I'd probably have a different plan.


----------



## doubleTHICK (Jun 19, 2012)

After re-reading the original post and having digested the entries within the thread it begins to make more sense, for me.

Family or long-life friends show up . . . what do you do?

My family isn't the family that has your back. They are the family that sues for whatever they can when someone dies. Regardless of how "air-tight" your will is they still sue. Say HI to your face and the very next second you turn around you feel the hate being projected onto you.
My friends are just as prepared as I am , maybe a little more than I. It doesn't even seem realistic to me that they would show up. If they were to show up then it would more than likely be a brainstorm session on possibly combining units or trading or just to BS.

This is why I am struggling to understand why you would prepare for 16 - 22 other people; I literally cannot understand why you would do such a thing. I'm guessing y'all have a different family environment that makes you want to know they [family] are OK. Honestly I don't know.

So for all of you that are prepping for larger numbers other than your immediate household family unit do you let them know? Do they offer any financial compensation? Are they willing to participate in your desires? Do they even agree with you prepping for them?
AAHHHH!!! So aggravating to me, I just don't understand. If they are not willing to do it for themselves why would you do it for them. It's like leading the horse to water - when the horse says he is thirsty but is not willing to drink himself - and the horse is at the water and you get a cup and fill it up, then put it to his mouth, then open his mouth, then pour the water in, then tilt his head back to let gravity do the rest. Afterwards the horse says, 'where's the ice'

I have to remove myself from this thread. I don't think I'm mentally ready or maybe mentally open enough to accept this. Not knocking any of you willing to do such an awesome thing, I'm just not able comprehend why y'all are doing what you are doing.


----------



## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

Everybody is in a different situation. Everybody's family is different. There is no right or wrong answer here. What is important is that we think about this before that fateful day. Being caught without an answer is bad. Being caught without even considering that the question might exist is far worse. 

This question has no easy answers. That is why it is such a good question. Ultimately, I won't know my answer till it happens but I am far better prepared to deal with the issue. I would like to send everyone away but I doubt that is the way it will go down.


----------



## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

doubleTHICK said:


> After re-reading the original post and having digested the entries within the thread it begins to make more sense, for me.
> 
> Family or long-life friends show up . . . what do you do?
> 
> ...


Well, despite the fact I am preparing for 16 people, my ex-wife is not welcome, so I understand your family issues. 

I also sympathize with the difficulty in turning people away, but it is a very realistic problem. If you don't know what you're going to do now, I suggest giving it some thought because you don't want to be simply confronted with the problem in the middle of a crisis with no idea what to do.

Prepping is really about planning, and this is one of the things we need to plan for. Take your time to work it through and even after you have worked it through, you can change your mind later. This is a personal decision.


----------



## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

doubleTHICK said:


> This is why I am struggling to understand why you would prepare for 16 - 22 other people; I literally cannot understand why you would do such a thing. I'm guessing y'all have a different family environment that makes you want to know they [family] are OK. Honestly I don't know.
> So for all of you that are prepping for larger numbers other than your immediate household family unit do you let them know? Do they offer any financial compensation? Are they willing to participate in your desires? Do they even agree with you prepping for them?


We are prepping for at least 16. We have two grown daughters, one married with a baby & the other gets married this month. I'm sure there will be another baby soon to follow. So our 2 kids turned into 6 to prep for. They all live in town, a few miles from the mall & are broke college students. We live out in the country with a well, septic tank, land, tractor, etc. it only makes sense for them to come here. If TSHTF, we want our kids with us no matter how grown they are. 

My best friend is single, lives in town, is on a very limited budget, & preps but seriously, how much is she going to be able to bring with her on foot in the event of an EMP? So we prep for her & her 2 kids, one of which is married. So there's 4 more.

At home is hubby, me, our 2yr old son, & an extra special needs kid, so there's four more for a total of 14. We prep for 2 extra people just so that we have the choice to have more people, use for charity, barter with, etc. One son-in-law only has his mother that's local so maybe she'd come. The other son-in-law has a dad & a brother that could possibly come, all of which would be fine by me & an asset to the group.

Do they know we prep for them? My friend does, my kids & friends kids know we prep but have no idea to what extent. They just know if something happens, they are to come to our house immediately. In the event of an EMP, they know they are to meet at one house & we will be to get them shortly.

If 16 people show up, we'll be eating a lot of beans & rice :2thumb: We only have luxury preps for 7 right now but we're working on it. We have the bare necessities & that's what matters. Why do I do this? It's who I am, I can afford it, & I have enough land, big enough house, etc to pull it off long term.


----------



## millertimedoneright (May 13, 2013)

My ex wife would be more than welcome to my house. I can always use someone to clean the outhouse and wash the cloth toilet paper. 


Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


----------



## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

tsrwivey said:


> We're all probably in the position of caring about more people than we can prep for. *The bottom line is we have to make choices & sometimes those choices are set* based on the size of our house/storage, how much farmable land we have, how much water we have available, etc.


Agree entirely. I can try my best to make sure my kids don't starve, but I can't become a public food bank/pantry!


----------



## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

doubleTHICK said:


> After re-reading the original post and having digested the entries within the thread it begins to make more sense, for me.
> 
> Family or long-life friends show up . . . what do you do?
> 
> ...


Are you related to me?


----------



## Elinor0987 (May 28, 2010)

doubleTHICK said:


> I ask this with no facetiousness whatsoever, why this need to accept people?
> Does it boil down to a moralistic determination or some way to quote a scripture or two?


I think it stems from a lot of things. One of which is the possibility that when everything goes into full chaos mode people will flee their areas that aren't blocked off by some form of martial law. Eventually some of these people are going to wander to places where people are prepared and decisions are going to have to be made. For some those decisions will be easy to make and others are going to have a hard time turning people away. Hammering these issues out online in a forum is one way that we mentally prepare ourselves for the turbulent times ahead that we are all about to face.


----------



## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Elinor0987 said:


> I think it stems from a lot of things. One of which is the possibility that when everything goes into full chaos mode people will flee their areas that aren't blocked off by some form of martial law. Eventually some of these people are going to wander to places where people are prepared and decisions are going to have to be made. For some those decisions will be easy to make and others are going to have a hard time turning people away. Hammering these issues out online in a forum is one way that we mentally prepare ourselves for the turbulent times ahead that we are all about to face.


I would add that there is no "need" to prep for more than yourself. It is a choice, not a requirement. I would simply encourage one to make that choice in a thoughtful manner and not just wait to be confronted with it in a crisis. In this case, that is what I would call mental preparation.


----------



## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

Here are some thoughts I apply to this scenario that eliminate the conundrum for me.

-For the "I'll come to your house" crowd, I ask them why they think they can be so irresponsible as to get in such a jam, and then expect ME to bail them out? The basic rule from first grade comes to mind: CLEAN UP YOUR OWN MESSES.

-Sloth is one of the deadly sins. It applies here.

-The book of Proverbs has some words about fools. 

-A rich, well functioning society can afford generosity. A poor, broken society cannot.

The fact is, if the situation is dire enough that people would come ask others for help, then a lot of people are going to die. Period. I don't plan to be one of them. 

What I WILL do is help where my efforts will be multiplied. I won't give a man a fish, but I will teach him to fish. I have skills that I will offer freely to help those who can use that help to produce more food and other things. I can help keep the farms, sawmills, vehicles, and machinery going to facilitate production of food for masses of people. So don't come to me and ask that I give you the capital needed to do that. 

The problem we have now that is bankrupting our society in the US is that HALF the people are on the dole and expect the other half to support them. That is getting the nation deeper in debt each day. How is that going to work when maybe 1%, or maybe 3% of the society still has the means to support life and the rest do not?

Don't fool yourself folks. In such a dire situation, many people will die. Each of us gets to decide for themselves if they will help and whom. I strongly suggest that you figure this out NOW.


----------



## gardenshepherd (Dec 11, 2013)

I look at it this way, if we are going to have to go back to doing everything by hand, I am going to need help, with gardening, raising livestock, cutting firewood, canning, cleaning, Security, making clothes,the list goes on and on. I'm not superwoman, we live like this on a small scale, its hard work but our choice to live like this. You cant do EVERYTHING long term, you would just wear yourself down. We know we will need help to survive, don't get me wrong, anyone that's coming to our house will have a skill that we as a family can use. So when the food you are storing away runs out, What then? Have you got a way of growing that much food that you don't have to go to the supermarket for a year, are you doing it now?


----------



## MCNSemperFi (Mar 25, 2014)

gardenshepherd said:


> I look at it this way, if we are going to have to go back to doing everything by hand, I am going to need help, with gardening, raising livestock, cutting firewood, canning, cleaning, Security, making clothes,the list goes on and on. I'm not superwoman, we live like this on a small scale, its hard work but our choice to live like this. You cant do EVERYTHING long term, you would just wear yourself down. We know we will need help to survive, don't get me wrong, anyone that's coming to our house will have a skill that we as a family can use. So when the food you are storing away runs out, What then? Have you got a way of growing that much food that you don't have to go to the supermarket for a year, are you doing it now?


And this is why, in the days gone by, a good community was such a huge deal. They knew that they couldn't do it all on their own, so they helped each other out and watched each other's backs. If they couldn't produce their food, then they provided for their community in another way. If they were no longer able to produce something, they shared their wisdom with others. We've moved so far away from this that we've forgotten what a true community looks like.


----------



## piglett (Dec 10, 2010)

rugster said:


> I can't imagine turning away immediate family & close friends.
> 
> Others, yes.


you have to say is this person

a +

or a -

to the group

if one of the people is a lazy pot head drunk that beats his wife

do you really want that person?

that type of person just brings trouble with them

how about someone who just can't take orders

the situation would be very stressful to start with

why lower your odds ?

life if full of tough choices

when you yourself have to make your own

i hope your strong enough to do what is best for your group

good luck
piglett


----------



## k0xxx (Oct 27, 2011)

As a whole, we have a pretty good family that seems to work well together, and as *gardenshepherd* stated, you can't do everything alone.

Accepting additional people is easier for us since we have:

1. A core group of five households that are actively preparing and pre-positioning supplies here. We have pretty much got most areas covered, even down to standardized defensive tools.

2. We have decided as a group to put back extra for those that may arrive . As a group we have already decided who is welcome and who is not. Each household has also agreed to put back an additional 10% minimum of food, to cover something unforeseen.

3. We have written rules that would have to be agreed to before anyone is allowed to stay. That agreement covers responsibilities, division of work, and as many other things that we could think of.

4. We have enough natural resources, space for planting, shelter, etc., to accommodate the extra people.

All of this does not mean we won't have to make some tough decisions, just that we've made the few we can anticipate ahead of time. Following through on these decisions may be hard, but depending on the situation it may be vital for the groups survival. If an economic collapse were to occur, we would certainly be poor, but we have the resources to be more flexible with our charity. If it is something more catastrophic, that flexibility may not be there.

With our luck though, an errant warhead may land right on this spot and everything will be for naught.


----------



## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

One of the benefits of bugging out to a remote location is that it becomes less likely that folks will turn up out of the blue. Most of the folks I bring to my BOL would be very welcome additions to our core group.



Padre said:


> I am planning to default bug out because of the particulars of my situation. But any family friends who turn up at my BOL are welcome. In fact I tell them when I experience that "I know where I am going..." conversation to bring as much food, water, meds, guns, and ammo. Of course the people I have these conversations with are people I hope will come anyway and I often invite them to bring specialized supplies they have access to.
> 
> Assuming we can survive that first year you are going to need people to have a division of labor between security, agriculture, maintenance, and home making.


----------



## dawnwinds58 (Jul 12, 2010)

squerly said:


> My 3 sons and their family's are a mixed bag. None have enough money to prep much, just trying to stay alive from month to month as it is. 1 has excellent firearms skills, one is scary strong with martial arts ability, and one is useless. I can use the skills of 2 out of 3 and we will teach the useless one as we go.


Since both my husband and myself are physically impaired and unable to do much "body work," we have considered carefully the term useful. We prep, and we have vital knowledge of living in rough, primitive conditions. But, even if we didn't have that info, we could always take over a less physical need to free up a working body, childcare being one. We can shell peas, shuck corn, package meat, set up herbs to dry. We can fold clothes and sew repairs. We can teach younger children and supervise older ones to again, free a working body for required labor. Usefulness is a point of view. We may not be able to do many things, but we sure can be support and make sure those who can, do, are free to do without worry for their families.


----------



## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

k0xxx said:


> 3. We have written rules that would have to be agreed to before anyone is allowed to stay. That agreement covers responsibilities, division of work, and as many other things that we could think of.


I would be particularly interested in how you would handle someone who is clearly able to do the work, but refuses not to.


----------



## piglett (Dec 10, 2010)

LincTex said:


> I would be particularly interested in how you would handle someone who is clearly able to do the work, but refuses not to.


size 12 boot in the @ss


----------



## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

piglett said:


> size 12 boot in the @ss


What if it isn't that easy? 
What if your wife has a total breakdown? 
What if your kids quit from "surviving exhaustion"?

Then what?

Can you do all of their work for them?


----------



## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

LincTex said:


> What if it isn't that easy?
> What if your wife has a total breakdown?
> What if your kids quit from "surviving exhaustion"?
> 
> ...


Your original question was what if they were lazy? If they are ill for whatever reason other considerations may apply.

If the size 12 does not work then give them 3 days worth of food and kick them out for a week. If they do not come back contrite or if they continue in the same vein then wish them well and send them on their way.

When the eskimos had a problem maker and the village had enough then that person would be banished for a month. The next banishment was permanent. If the person came back during the banishment they were killed. The eskimos had no prisons. A banishment was all but a death sentence. It is very difficult for one person to live alone in the wild. If you get sick, if you get injured, there is nobody to cover for you. The lack of social interaction is also very big. If someone were banished in a lawless society it would be very dangerous.


----------



## bkt (Oct 10, 2008)

I sure didn't expect this topic to blossom into this thread the way it has, but I'm glad it did because lots of people are thinking. That's good!

When I wrote it, I thought about my own circumstance. I have family members who lean pretty far left and who think my prepping is unnecessary and who absolutely disapprove of my owning firearms. Similarly, I have acquaintances who lean left and are of the same ilk.

On the flip side, I have several friends - not blood relatives - who are on the same page as me. We know we aren't perfectly aligned ideologically or in any other way, but we understand we're fellow travelers down this particular stretch of time. We trust each other with the lives of our families.

I'd like to be in a position to turn no one away ever, but that's a tall order. And I've decided I'd sooner turn away family who has refused to listen to me these many years rather than turn away a good friend I know would be useful in countless ways in a SHTF scenario.

In fact, if it were just a very localized SHTF scenario - just my family - I'd be more inclined to ask some friends for help than some family, whether it's money or something else.


----------



## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

bkt said:


> I sure didn't expect this topic to blossom into this thread the way it has, but I'm glad it did because lots of people are thinking. That's good!
> 
> When I wrote it, I thought about my own circumstance. I have family members who lean pretty far left and who think my prepping is unnecessary and who absolutely disapprove of my owning firearms. Similarly, I have acquaintances who lean left and are of the same ilk.
> 
> ...


I think if you live in a liberal area you're going to face a bunch of this. I know a fellow who lives on Long Island, a liberal area for sure. He works as a teacher and reads the NY Times. We were talking and it came out that he didn't even know a Republican. He wasn't the typical rabid leftie, but he was just living in a place where he never came in contact with a Republican.

I have not talked to him about prepping and he is far enough away that I figure he isn't an issue. My point is there are plenty of people for whom the idea of prepping is completely alien.


----------



## Wellrounded (Sep 25, 2011)

LincTex said:


> I would be particularly interested in how you would handle someone who is clearly able to do the work, but refuses not to.


Deciding to kick them out is not a problem, actually getting them to leave may be. This is one of the reasons we hope to have a larger group here. Much easier to give someone the boot or get them working if there are 15 others watching your back. 
I've got a pretty good idea who will be difficult. Luckily they have family members that will work. 
In my earlier comment I mentioned the need to know what people are really like now before everything goes pear shaped. I think this needs repeating. This is not always as clear as you might think either.
Take hubbies oldest daughter as an example. I thought she was a worker, her house was always spotless. I found out by employing her that it was spotless not because she worked hard but because she did NOTHING. You don't need to clean a kitchen you never cook in or a laundry you never use. When she visits she ignores her children and stares at her phone letting everyone else take responsibility. She will be welcome because she's hubbies daughter and her partner is a worker. They won't be living in my house, we have a spot for them well away from the main homestead. 
We put a lot of effort and thought into 'what would we do if's'. For us the solution in a really serious SHTF is to form a village and have everyone take responsibility for themselves. Build an economy, if you work you get rewarded.


----------



## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

I do have to say the good part about the recent move is that only 3 people know where we moved to- my folks and K's childhood friend, Paul. None of his siblings know where we are so I can relax knowing they will not show up at our door looking for a hand out. If they did a well positioned bullet would cure me of that disease. Trust me. That would be the humane thing to do for them.


----------



## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

turning people away is a HUGE risk. 

if you turn away someone, they will wander around and they will run across "other" someone's who are also wandering around.

So the "nice" person in your group gives a young girl with a child some food, but says "really, this is all we can spare... please take this and keep going, I will not give you any more"

and she means it, she wont keep feeding the girl + child like a stray cat. Okay fine.

but stray girl + child to feed runs across more folks who have no food, they are camped out sharing whatever it is they may share, and she shares information... only 2 miles away, they gave me a days rations and said please don't come back! they must have more, they have a huge place!!!!

huge place is relative, maybe you're on a huge place, 100 acre farm, or maybe you're on a house with 1 acre of land and have a substantial garden and some critters, or maybe you're on a piece of land and live in a broken down trailer but you grow your garden and have some kind of protein supply.... point being, she's just ratted you out to 3, 5, 10, 30.... who knows how many hungry people... and once they decide to raid, that's it. it's WAR at that point, and they know it's coming and you don't, and someone was "just trying to do the right thing"...

This thread will probably get locked because someone will go apeshit crazy with "I'll kill them"

meanwhile, you still have the same problem, how are you going to handle the wandering young girl who has a child? are they going to be pushing up daisies and fertilizer in your garden? are you willing to risk letting her leave after giving her something and believing she won't come back or won't spread news of your location?

I also present this scenario intentionally as the girl has no ill intent from the very beginning... what if she's a scout for a raiding force. willingly or not. you're just something she's supposed to look at, and the better she does that job, the less she gets beaten or abused. 

There was a thread some time ago, about what would you do if a half naked woman were beating on your door begging to come in because she was escaping just being attacked.

it's almost the same thing. in for a penny, in for a pound. you commit fully instantly and be ready to deal with all of it, containment and isolation of the supposed "victims" and whomever else may present themselves, or you willfully acknowledge that all your plans and preps now are going to be handed over without a fight as you take a bullet to the head or a knife to the throat from a false-flag sympathy attack as she pulls a knife or gun and kills you while you're focused on the "attacker" now showing up 5 minutes later and you're trying to defend from him instead of from her...


----------



## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

Dakine said:


> turning people away is a HUGE risk.
> 
> if you turn away someone, they will wander around and they will run across "other" someone's who are also wandering around.
> 
> ...


Nobody that is not a member of my group or a very good friend gets closer than shouting distance. Any charity will be given through a third party like a church or fire department that has a soup kitchen. I'll tell them that is where I get my food.


----------



## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

Caribou said:


> Nobody that is not a member of my group or a very good friend gets closer than shouting distance. Any charity will be given through a third party like a church or fire department that has a soup kitchen. I'll tell them that is where I get my food.


I really like the idea of pushing them to public access resources, especially if your group is able and helping those efforts even more the better, but at some point, in order to stop them from getting closer than shouting distance, someone has to engage them and start making really hard decisions, and that refugee/attacker, if they leave willingly knows that they were denied entrance by at least X number of armed people...

I'm just saying it's not a situation that will work out well for anyone who is prepared to do what they can, without recognizing that they may be forced into untenable situations. Innocent doesn't excuse ignorant, but they will be both and showing up on doorsteps all over the country (or world) when the financial house of cards comes tumbling down and the welfare checks stop showing up and the food trucks to the store stop showing up.

basically... it's gonna suck


----------



## k0xxx (Oct 27, 2011)

LincTex said:


> I would be particularly interested in how you would handle someone who is clearly able to do the work, but refuses not to.


Our group has discussed this extensively and I don't believe any of them will be a problem. Any others that are allowed to stay and are clearly able, physically and mentally, to work will be required to do so or they will be sent packing.

Our core group agreement spells this out quite clearly, and all persons staying with us will have read and signed the agreement as a condition of their being there. An effort would be made to convince the slacker of the error of their ways, and it will be made abundantly clear how we we deal with the situation should they not correct their behavior.

If the offending individual is an adult member of a family group, we would give the other adult members of the group the option of staying or leaving with the slacker. Of course, children and young teens that are disruptive would be dealt with differently, but adults are responsible for their actions.

Bare in mind that we have two sets of "rules". One that covers a milder shtf situation, like economic collapse and it's associated minimum security issues, and another that deals with a much harsher worl shtf. The former is pretty much set in stone, but the latter being is currently reviewed and updated. Depending on the situation, we could see a blending of the two.


----------



## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

the economic collapse being a "mild" example surprised me a little bit.

When I look at the national levels of chaos and disorder from economic collapse in countries in our lifetime, they are scary, and they all have the same thing going for them, their economy can crater and nobody gives a rats ass... nobody missed Argentina, nobody missed Greece, Cyprus. But if the TPTB decide it's time to pancake our economy... we start a lot of dominoes falling down with us.

I do not think Russia, China or our even our "friends" in the middle east will be very... "helpful" or "friendly" when its our turn to pay the piper...


----------



## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

Dakine said:


> at some point, in order to stop them from getting closer than shouting distance, someone has to engage them and start making really hard decisions, and that refugee/attacker, if they leave willingly knows that they were denied entrance by at least X number of armed people...
> 
> I'm just saying it's not a situation that will work out well for anyone who is prepared to do what they can, without recognizing that they may be forced into untenable situations.
> 
> basically... it's gonna suck


I don't think this is the way you meant it but you have it right, " X number of armed people" X being the unknown. There is probably no reason for them to see even you but certainly no more than one person.

I looked up SHTF in the dictionary and that is exactly what it said, it's gonna suck. A lot of hard, gut wrenching decisions, and a lot of sleepless nights. I'm prepping for a lot of things but the Rose Parade isn't one of them.


----------



## squerly (Aug 17, 2012)

k0xxx said:


> Our group has discussed this extensively and I don't believe any of them will be a problem. Any others that are allowed to stay and are clearly able, physically and mentally, to work will be required to do so or they will be sent packing.
> 
> *Our core group agreement spells this out quite clearly, and all persons staying with us will have read and signed the agreement as a condition of their being there. *


I have seen you mention this "core group agreement" in other threads and I feel it is an extremely good idea. Best to know the rules going in than to make them up as you go.

I imagine your agreement is confidential and I'm not asking you to lay it out in detailed manner, but I am courious if you might be able to share some of the basics with those of us who have not yet put together such a document?


----------



## Wellrounded (Sep 25, 2011)

squerly said:


> I have seen you mention this "core group agreement" in other threads and I feel it is an extremely good idea. Best to know the rules going in than to make them up as you go.
> 
> I imagine your agreement is confidential and I'm not asking you to lay it out in detailed manner, but I am courious if you might be able to share some of the basics with those of us who have not yet put together such a document?


I'd be interested in seeing your outline as well.

I had what I thought was a great set of 'rules', a few things happened and I found that they just didn't cut it. 
Do you base yours on the society you live in now or what you think will work better in a more stressful situation?
One of the things I wasn't prepped for was the need to stress equality of adults. I had no idea that sexism was so alive and well until I spent time working with some of our proposed group. Ageism was also a problem, young and knowledgeable should trump old and stupid every time, right? 
I'm a huge believer in best person for the job, I just want stuff done. Amazingly :dunno: I find that that is not the case with a lot of our friends and family. Big hurdle that I'm still working on.


----------



## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Wellrounded said:


> I'd be interested in seeing your outline as well.
> 
> I had what I thought was a great set of 'rules', a few things happened and I found that they just didn't cut it.
> Do you base yours on the society you live in now or what you think will work better in a more stressful situation?
> ...


Ultimately nobody is going to turn control of their survival complletely over to another person. To establish rules you need a high level of trust and agreement.

Ageism, sexism, etc. Are just expressions of reasons for distrust. If the group doesn't trust each other, maybe you aren't really a group.


----------



## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

squerly said:


> I have seen you mention this "core group agreement" in other threads and I feel it is an extremely good idea. Best to know the rules going in than to make them up as you go.
> 
> I imagine your agreement is confidential and I'm not asking you to lay it out in detailed manner, but I am courious if you might be able to share some of the basics with those of us who have not yet put together such a document?


Below is a preliminary draft of an agreement we are working on:

Purpose of Document.

The purpose of this document is to present the established procedures, criteria, and equipment requirements for MAG. The information found in this document will aid the new MAG member in becoming familiar with what MAG consists of and will also be an aid to the established group members as a reference when necessary.

Attitude.

A inner drive to always "be alive" and not to simply "survive." This means conducting one's actions in a manner that retains their humanity and soul. This is not a "stay alive no matter the cost" mentality.

A belief that one's ultimate hope in getting through a MAG necessary situation is not in solely being prepared, but has the grounded belief that God is their ultimate hope and source of strength.

Definitions.

BOL. Bug Out Location. This is where the MAG will live during a major state, national or world catastrophe.

Family Unit. A single unmarried person. A husband and wife. A husband and wife with siblings. A person or person(s) who are primary caregivers for another person or person(s).

Group 1 (Defense). Anyone over 16 years of age and has the knowledge and capability to operate and fire a firearm safely. Physically capable of walking 10 miles while carrying a 25 pound pack. Primarily responsible for BOL defensive perimeter, internal security and communications. Secondary responsibility is to assist Group 2 personal.

Group 2 (Support). Anyone over 13 years of age. Physical limitations or age excludes them from participating in Group 1. Primary responsible for shelter, food, water, medical and power. Secondary responsibility is to assist the Group 1 personal.

MAG. Mutual Aid Group. A group of people that join together to provide each member with support and aid when needed. New membership into the MAG must be unanimously approved by ALL of the current members of the MAG prior to revealing the existence of the MAG to the potential new member(s).

OP. Observation Post. A secret temporary or fixed position location from which members can watch for or to warn of the approach of strangers. An observation post is any preselected position from which observations are to be made. When selecting an observation post, avoid obvious and conspicuous locations such as hilltops, water tower or other isolated terrain features, and to assure that the observation post can be reached via a concealed route. This is especially important as the observer in the post should be rotated every 20-30 minutes, as vigilance decreases markedly after such a time. Observation posts should be manned with at least two personnel if the post is to be retained for longer durations and should be provided a means of communication with their chain of command, preferably by wired communications instead of by radio.

OPSEC. Operational Security. OPSEC is the process of protecting little pieces of data that could be grouped together to give the bigger picture. OPSEC is the protection of critical information deemed mission essential. Protecting this critical information is through the use of email encryption, being careful of who may be listening to you (like in a restaurant), paying close attention to a picture you have taken (back ground), or not talking openly on social media sites about information on MAG critical information (BOL, material or food acquired). In more modern usage, the term has come to have a similar meaning including protecting information from unfriendly eyes, coworkers and a non MAG person(s). Don't tell non MAG person(s) about your planned BOL, what you are accumulating and planning on doing in the event of a state, national or world catastrophe! We can not afford (or feed) people that just show up because they heard you discussing...

PO. The Property Owner of the land the BOL is located on. PO is responsible for a generator, water source, shelter, construction of fixed OPs, wired communications, HAM base station, CB SSB base station and a 12 VDC power source.

Organization.

Each Family Unit has one vote.

For routine matters and when time is not critical, Family Units will decide issues by a majority vote. The Property Owner (or his designated representative) will act as Chairman for all MAG meetings.

NO new members will be invited to join until all of the MAG members have voted unanimously to invite the proposed new member to join.

Family Units shall elect a Leader of Group 1 and a Leader of Group 2. A ⅔ majority is required for a "Lost of Confidence" vote to remove a Leader of either Group or to ask a Family Unit to leave.

Leadership will consist of the BOL Property Owner, the elected Leader of Group 1 and the elected Leader of Group 2. For matters that are not routine or are time critical, the majority of the Leadership will make the final decision.

BOL Property Owner, the elected Leader of Group 1 and the elected Leader of Group 2 shall appoint their own organizational staff pertaining to their respective groups.

It is understood that any and all equipment, food, firearms and any other material the Family Unit brought into the MAG belongs to the Family Unit that brought it into the MAG.

It is understood that any and all equipment, food, firearms and any other material the Family Unit brought into the MAG shall be shared with the other members of the MAG.

In the event a Family Unit is asked to leave the group any remaining equipment, food, firearms or other material the Family Unit brought into the MAG is theirs to take with them.

Standardization.

As much as is practical possible, firearms, ammo, equipment, power tools and electronics shall be standardized. Before purchasing check with the other members to see if they have already bought and if they have, what model/brand, etc. If one item breaks then that item may be cannibalized for parts to maintain the other like items. Two is one and one is none, mentality.

Family Unit. Dependent on the individual's skill set every Family Unit should bring into the group as many of the following as possible:

Hardware & Misc

1. Holy Bible and other "how to" reference materials (printed and digital).

2. Hand tools, saws, chain saws, LED flashlights, test equipment, solar panels, deep cycle 12 volt DC battery(s), gasoline, lumber, radios (solar or hand rechargeable), generators, cooking utensils, wiring, canning supplies (jars, lids, pressure cooker), shovels, picks, state road maps, topographical maps. Anything that would support the MAG with long term living.

3. All battery powered electronics must accept rechargeable Sanyo Eneloop AA batteries. Eneloop batteries are designed to hold 75% of their charge for 5 years.

A. Every Family Unit must have at least twice the number of AA batteries their electronics require and have the means to solar recharge at least 1/2 of their batteries as needed. (PowerFilm AA Foldable Solar Charger as an example).

4. Basic First Aid kit(s).

Clothing

1. Normal everyday wear clothing, coats, jackets, rain gear, boots, shoes and tennis shoes and undergarments appropriate for the four seasons. Earth tone colors recommended. Bright reflective colors must be avoided.

2. Backpacks. It may be necessary for the Family Unit to walk to the BOL or relocated from the BOL. Backpack(s) will need to be large enough to carry enough resources to sustain the Family Unit until they reach the BOL. Recommend the backpack(s) color and type would enable the Family Unit to blend in with other evacuees they may encounter. Bright colored or military color schemes can be easy covered with a black garbage bag (or white during the winter) when concealment or low profile is necessary.

Food

During a state catastrophe:

1. Enough food to maintain their Family Unit for 1 week.

During a national or world catastrophe:

1. Enough food to maintain their Family Unit for 1 year.

2. Enough non-GMO, non-hybrid seeds to plant, produce and provide for 2 years in the event of a national or world catastrophe.

3. Salt and other spices.

In addition to the Family Unit requirements, every Group 1 member shall bring the following additional items into the group:

Hardware & Misc.

1. Portable handheld 2-way radio capable of transmitting and receiving on all GRMS and all FRS frequencies. (Midland GXT1050VP4 as an example).

A. Powered by AA batteries.
B. Battery charger(s) must be capable of operating on 12 DC.
C. Capable of VOX operation
D. Headset with mic and earpiece.
E. Color. Earth tones or camo. No bright colors.

2. Rifle. AR design chambered for NATO 5.56.

A. Will accept and operate with MagPul PMags
B. Iron sights, Trijicon ACOG TA31F, any reliable red dot sight (must be powered by AA battery(s) or traditional "glass" scope.
C. 1 thousand rounds per rifle. 2 thousand rounds for a national or world catastrophe.
D. Cleaning kit
E. Minimum of 4 - 30 round magazines. A method to carry and quickly acquire.

3. Handgun. Members choice. Semi auto. Chambered in 9mm, 40 S&W or 45 ACP.

A. Cleaning kit.
B. 250 rounds. 500 rounds for a national or world catastrophe.
C. Minimum of 3 magazines.

4. Flashlight. Two required.

A. Minimal output, single LED with white and red lens and long AA battery life. Just enough light to be able to see at night or read a map without giving position away. (Gerber Recon D.I.A.L. as an example).
B. High output tactical flashlight. This is the ONLY exception to the AA battery rule. May use 18650 Lithium-Ion rechargeable battery(s). If 18650 then a 12 DC charger is required. (Example).

Clothing

For ease of recognition from other members of the MAG, concealment and the possible necessity to appear as a professional military unit a uniform dress code will be adhered to. This applies after the initial arrival to the BOL and when on duty.

1. Tactical Response Uniform (TRU) in Multicam

A. Pants 
B. Uniform Shirt 
C. Combat Shirt 
D. Belt

2. Combat Boots

A. Such as Bates brand boots

After duty hours Group 1 Member's clothing can be at their discretion as long as no bright, florescent or loud clothing.

Recommended Reading

Light Infantry Tactics for Small Teams
Larsen, Christopher E.

Combat Tracking Guide
Hurth, John D.

FM 3-25.26,2001 Map Reading and Land Navigation
Headquarters, Department of the Army

FM 21-76, 1970 Survival
Headquarters, Department of the Army

The Creature from Jekyll Island
Edward Griffin


----------



## bkt (Oct 10, 2008)

Nice work! You have articulated what my group has done on its own without really putting it down in writing what makes sense to to. Mind if I borrow this and tweak it to my needs?


----------



## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

TheLazyL said:


> Below is a preliminary draft of an agreement we are working on:
> 
> Purpose of Document.
> 
> ...


It is a good start, but doesn't address bahavior, constructive criticism, or punishment.


----------



## piglett (Dec 10, 2010)

bkt said:


> I sure didn't expect this topic to blossom into this thread the way it has, but I'm glad it did because lots of people are thinking.
> I'd like to be in a position to turn no one away ever, but that's a tall order. And I've decided I'd sooner turn away family who has refused to listen to me these many years rather than turn away a good friend I know would be useful in countless ways in a SHTF scenario.
> 
> In fact, if it were just a very localized SHTF scenario - just my family - I'd be more inclined to ask some friends for help than some family, whether it's money or something else.


how about this, you have to pick 1 family
2 show up

family A are lazy Gov. foodstamp type who always lived in section 8 housing
but they are some how family (maybe cousins)

family B is not family but there is a nurse & a welder/farmer among them

who do you pick

how do you tell the other group to "make tracks"


----------



## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

piglett said:


> how about this, you have to pick 1 family
> 2 show up
> 
> family A are lazy Gov. foodstamp type who always lived in section 8 housing
> ...


Family B since they have skills to trade for services/goods.

Like I mentioned in my post, some very well placed bullets and I don't have to deal with family A.  And, NO, I am not kidding about the bullets. I would rather take my chances with strangers than my lazy 'family'. My lazy 'family' will get me killed for sure either by being just plain dumb and lazy or by design.


----------



## Wellrounded (Sep 25, 2011)

Geek999 said:


> Ultimately nobody is going to turn control of their survival complletely over to another person. To establish rules you need a high level of trust and agreement.
> 
> Ageism, sexism, etc. Are just expressions of reasons for distrust. If the group doesn't trust each other, maybe you aren't really a group.


I see it the other way around, in my experience you need rules to help establish trust. Very rarely do you get a group of people all nodding in agreement. If there are basic outlines of acceptable conduct etc people tend to feel more comfortable. When they don't know what's expected of them and are not sure of what is seen as acceptable they become unhappy with the situation much faster. 
I do agree that ageism and sexism can be expressions of distrust but then I don't see the need for absolute trust, IMHO that just ain't gonna happen. There are only two people in the world that I trust completely, never going to be more than that.
Our goal is to have a group of people that will look after each other and can work fairly well together. I'm not going to assume that they will put their family before mine, so yeah I don't trust them completely. I would say that if you have a 'group' and completely trust every member then maybe your being a little too trusting  .
Honestly I don't think I've met anyone that isn't sexist or ageist in some way, hell I am. I don't expect the woman in a group to be the best mechanic or that the youngest will have the best solution to a problem.
My hubby still struggles to recognize that I'm just as skilled as him, more so in many areas, but I trust him. His sexism is about the era he grew up in and his previous life experiences, has nothing to do with distrust. 
Same with hubbies friend that is a part of our group. He has never worked with anyone like me before and is struggling with the simple fact that I know much more about some things than he does, he'll get over it. I'm glad to know this now while I can work toward solutions and prevent problems than later when crunch time happens. I'm not going to exclude this man from the group based on his sexism, everyone is going to bring problems and challenges to the table. I rather he was here adding his skill pool to ours and just deal with it.


----------



## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Wellrounded said:


> I see it the other way around, in my experience you need rules to help establish trust. Very rarely do you get a group of people all nodding in agreement. If there are basic outlines of acceptable conduct etc people tend to feel more comfortable. When they don't know what's expected of them and are not sure of what is seen as acceptable they become unhappy with the situation much faster.
> I do agree that ageism and sexism can be expressions of distrust but then I don't see the need for absolute trust, IMHO that just ain't gonna happen. There are only two people in the world that I trust completely, never going to be more than that.
> Our goal is to have a group of people that will look after each other and can work fairly well together. I'm not going to assume that they will put their family before mine, so yeah I don't trust them completely. I would say that if you have a 'group' and completely trust every member then maybe your being a little too trusting  .
> Honestly I don't think I've met anyone that isn't sexist or ageist in some way, hell I am. I don't expect the woman in a group to be the best mechanic or that the youngest will have the best solution to a problem.
> ...


Actually, the ageism, sexism issues are a display of mistrust in both directions. Not only is it distrust on the part of the person displaying those tendencies, it is a manifestation of mistrust on the part of the person making the claim.

In the political sphere we are constantly hearing about racism these days. to some extent it is about changing the subject, but it is also a statement of mistrust from the likes of Obama, Holder, Sharpton, etc. of anyone who isn't for their agenda. They've given up trying to persuade folks to see things their way because they don't trust those folks. Would you want any of those clowns in your group? I wouldn't and not because of race, but because they wouldn't trust me and I tend to return trust for trust.


----------



## bigg777 (Mar 18, 2013)

Geek999 said:


> To some extent it is about changing the subject, but it is also a statement of mistrust from the likes of Obama, Holder, Sharpton, etc. of anyone who isn't for their agenda. They've given up trying to persuade folks to see things their way because they don't trust those folks. Would you want any of those clowns in your group?


I'll change the subject, you're talking about 2 lawyers and a bigoted reverend, I don't have much use for them in our current socio-economic situation. White, black or purple!


----------



## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

To have an agreement, you have to trust that the other person will keep his end of the agreement. If you don't trust someone you can't really have a cohesive group.


----------



## squerly (Aug 17, 2012)

Good info all the way around. But... unless I've missed it, nobody has addressed pets.


----------



## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

squerly said:


> Good info all the way around. But... unless I've missed it, nobody has addressed pets.


If you bring them you feed them. What else?


----------



## Wellrounded (Sep 25, 2011)

Geek999 said:


> Actually, the ageism, sexism issues are a display of mistrust in both directions. Not only is it distrust on the part of the person displaying those tendencies, it is a manifestation of mistrust on the part of the person making the claim.
> 
> In the political sphere we are constantly hearing about racism these days. to some extent it is about changing the subject, but it is also a statement of mistrust from the likes of Obama, Holder, Sharpton, etc. of anyone who isn't for their agenda. They've given up trying to persuade folks to see things their way because they don't trust those folks. Would you want any of those clowns in your group? I wouldn't and not because of race, but because they wouldn't trust me and I tend to return trust for trust.


Ummm yeah, lets agree to disagree.


----------



## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

squerly said:


> Good info all the way around. But... unless I've missed it, nobody has addressed pets.





Geek999 said:


> If you bring them you feed them. What else?


My pets work for a living. Even if all they "normally" do is sit there and soak up free food.

The cat is a mouser, a pretty good one too. going on some scenario of SHTF or things are rapidly declining, as opposed to the slowly rising pot of hot water we find our self in now... all the rodents that are traditionally kept partially in check by traps and poisons are going to be breeding and spreading unfettered and that means they bring mites, parasites, fleas and disease with them. At the exact same time, if there are people starving in the street, besides "normal" level of starving people in the streets even today!!!  transients, people with addictions they can't control, mental issues, etc... when you start seeing people who a month ago were a blue collar or white collar family that were trying to just get by and make it to better times, and now their world is caving in, and all of the support systems are falling into the abyss right behind them... they will be dining on kitty al fresco. When the belly button meets the spinal cord, the body will forget it's lactose intolerant or any other malady and food will be whatever doesn't take more energy to kill it and eat it than it costs to do so.

point being, cats are the most prolific hunters of mice, rats, whatever... today. remove that apex predator from the "normal" eco-system because now humans are bottom feeding and killing and eating the cats, and the populations of rats and mice will explode.

Anyway, sorry that's a very long winded way of saying, having mousers around is not a bad idea.

And the mutt is great at protecting the rabbit hutches from wandering predators like *****, possums, coyotes, cats, and other dogs.

Speaking of dogs, feral dogs will form packs, and they will be bad news.

Feeding the animals is a matter of setting aside "pet preps"... you have food preps right? kitty and mutt need them too. Sort it out and buy ant-proof air-tight vittles vaults or some other solution to keep the normal kibble you feed them safe from bugs and rodents, and then add to their stash just as you would add to yours. they should be an integral part of your house, if you are using their strengths they will bring much more than just love and devotion to the table, so capitalize on that and plan ahead for them.

Also, you can make fresh cat and dog food out of the awful when you're butchering your rabbits. grind up some of the smaller less desirable cuts of meat, along with the fat, the eyes, the lungs, heart, other organs etc from the rabbit and make a burger patty for them. (served raw, not cooked... their systems are designed OEM for raw food) just not too much at once and try to ease it into their diet.


----------



## squerly (Aug 17, 2012)

Dakine said:


> My pets work for a living. Even if all they "normally" do is sit there and soak up free food.
> 
> The cat is a mouser, a pretty good one too. going on some scenario of SHTF or things are rapidly declining, as opposed to the slowly rising pot of hot water we find our self in now... all the rodents that are traditionally kept partially in check by traps and poisons are going to be breeding and spreading unfettered and that means they bring mites, parasites, fleas and disease with them. At the exact same time, if there are people starving in the street, besides "normal" level of starving people in the streets even today!!!  transients, people with addictions they can't control, mental issues, etc... when you start seeing people who a month ago were a blue collar or white collar family that were trying to just get by and make it to better times, and now their world is caving in, and all of the support systems are falling into the abyss right behind them... they will be dining on kitty al fresco. When the belly button meets the spinal cord, the body will forget it's lactose intolerant or any other malady and food will be whatever doesn't take more energy to kill it and eat it than it costs to do so.
> 
> ...


Yep, you've got your act together and understand the details of surviving. But when your BNL/SNL show up with their 4 dachshunds I'm thinking that something in the "rules" should have addressed the expectations of the animals behavior.

Pets are as important (and loved) to the pet owner as some relatives are to you and me. And sometimes the owners tend to spoil their best buddies. The rules have addressed everything from what to wear, how many batteries to bring and how much food you need to have on hand. But nothing addresses how the dogs/cats are to be handled if they turn out to be a PITA or need to be eaten.

How many is too many? What if they steal food when you aren't looking?

You may have a problem if you kill the dog that your best friends wife loves more than life itself. I would think that addressing these issues in advance would be in everyone's best interests. Especially if you need to eat them somewhere along the line.

just sayin...


----------



## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

squerly said:


> Yep, you've got your act together and understand the details of surviving. But when your BNL/SNL show up with their 4 dachshunds I'm thinking that something in the "rules" should have addressed the expectations of the animals behavior.
> 
> Pets are as important (and loved) to the pet owner as some relatives are to you and me. And sometimes the owners tend to spoil their best buddies. The rules have addressed everything from what to wear, how many batteries to bring and how much food you need to have on hand. But nothing addresses how the dogs/cats are to be handled if they turn out to be a PITA or need to be eaten.
> 
> ...


well, I see what you're getting at...

How many is too many is going to be situational. 14 german sheppards in a 500 sq. ft hunting/weekend cabin is... a LOT. 5 cats and 5 dogs, 3 of which are big and primarily live outside unless it's freezing cold... okay... that's doable, I suppose as long as kitty litter stands up to the task, or you have sand, or something lol...

everything about me is about getting away from where cats or dogs are a viable food source, I know that the situation you're describing is going to be a soap opera of drama and it's not going to get better when people are already dealing with their fragile little lives just having gone splat! in an obscenely twisted way that we here in "civilized" countries only expect to see on the news happening far far away... LOL!

Good luck! I don't envy your situation or the scenario you're describing and I know a LOT of good people are going to get sucked down by the people who are already boat-anchors on society. That's what those people do, leech off of everything they can to support them.


----------



## piglett (Dec 10, 2010)

squerly said:


> Good info all the way around. But... unless I've missed it, nobody has addressed pets.


skin them & serve with a side of rice if you have some to spare :droolie:


----------



## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

piglett said:


> skin them & serve with a side of rice if you have some to spare :droolie:


Just curious...

do you have either? pets and livestock that you butcher for food?

I don't offer any opinion or judgement on people that will be forced into eating pets, it's gonna happen, it's already happened LOTS of places besides the good ole USA...

I'm just inquiring to what your experience is, are you capable of butchering an animal you've hand fed, or is it internet bravado?


----------



## piglett (Dec 10, 2010)

Dakine said:


> Just curious...
> 
> do you have either? pets and livestock that you butcher for food?
> 
> ...


we have over 100 chickens at the moment (ages 1 day to 3 years old)

plus a dozen muscovy meat ducks (they are very good eating)

my wife is from the Philippines, she can take a live rooster & have his butt in a ziplock freezer bag in less than 15 min.

she grew up in a remote province where most people only get to eat 2 meals a day. 
so processing something for lunch is not a real big deal.

i too can also process but she is much more of an expert that I.

we don't name farm animals

we only care for them until their day arrives

then we do what needs to be done

piglett


----------



## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

piglett said:


> we have over 100 chickens at the moment (ages 1 day to 3 years old)
> 
> plus a dozen muscovy meat ducks (they are very good eating)
> 
> ...


very well, and I see you're quite adept at harvesting your own food, I respect that and I'm working on it myself, just need the bunnies to cooperate and produce the fryers lol.

my question was really about pet vs. livestock but then again for people who are 100% accustomed to not only eating but also butchering their own food, the fact that it's a kitty or a dog, or a pet guinea pig or... etc etc

So good on you, and it also sounds like you have a good little business flourishing, good luck with that too!!


----------



## piglett (Dec 10, 2010)

Dakine said:


> very well, and I see you're quite adept at harvesting your own food, I respect that and I'm working on it myself, just need the bunnies to cooperate and produce the fryers lol.
> 
> my question was really about pet vs. livestock but then again for people who are 100% accustomed to not only eating but also butchering their own food, the fact that it's a kitty or a dog, or a pet guinea pig or... etc etc
> 
> So good on you, and it also sounds like you have a good little business flourishing, good luck with that too!!


i would draw the line at my wife's pet cat

i would have to be in rather bad shape to eat a 3lb cat

but if it was me or the cat

the cat would have to go to my belly

piglett


----------



## k0xxx (Oct 27, 2011)

We are down to just one dog, but when we had four big working dogs, we supplemented their feed with meat from predators and fresh road kill (although I never could convince them that skunk was good for them). We have enough dry dog food put back for about 6 months if that is all we fed him. Supplemented as before, it would probably last considerably longer. We are currently looking at the local rescue groups for a good mouser.

We only have two families in our core group that have pets, and they are responsible for feeding and controlling/constraining them. We have definitely neglected pets brought by others in our "rules", and thanks to this thread, that will be addressed during our next get together. 

Dang, I love this group!


----------



## gardenshepherd (Dec 11, 2013)

You are right, in the past people have been forced to eat things that would turn your stomach now, In some countries they eat pets and bugs as there natural diet. Mother-in- law told me that in Holland during WW2 they ate dirt to fill them up. You will eat what you have to survive. Even snails, frogs, viva la France


----------



## 101airborne (Jan 29, 2010)

bkt said:


> In keeping with the earlier "first place to raid" post, I present this notion:
> 
> How would you deal with family or close friends who, at the onset of a particularly nasty event, showed up at your door saying "I remember you saying you prepare for such events. Can we come in?"
> 
> Obviously, if it's a short-term event and you have ample supplies to go around and there are no requirements you can't meet, you'll almost certainly take them in. I sure would.


In answer to the first paragraph The answer is not only NO! But HELL NO you can't come in!

On the second paragraph whether I have "ample" supplies or not doesn't matter. What's to say that "temporary" event could last longer than you anticipate it being. Stuff happens. A 2-3 day event could end up being 2-3 weeks ( or more). I won't endanger my wife and I to take care of people that are either to lazy or to stupid to have taken my warnings and suggestions that they plan for something happening. They have NO excuse not to. Everyone I know both friends and family that are not "preppers" make very good livings and make as much or more than we do.

I have one family member that has a wife and 2 kids that doesn't make much money, But after a helping hand from us and a couple more family members (we got them started with 30 days supplies for the family) he cut out the B.S. spending ( fast food, take out coffee, and 75% of the junk foods) and is investing around $150 a month on preps, I usually order for him with my orders to take advantage of bulk prices, and saving him shipping costs.

But as for the others I've tried to educate them and get a smirk and a "that won't happen" So they're on their own.


----------



## notyermomma (Feb 11, 2014)

k0xxx said:


> We are down to just one dog, but when we had four big working dogs, we supplemented their feed with meat from predators and fresh road kill (although I never could convince them that skunk was good for them). We have enough dry dog food put back for about 6 months if that is all we fed him. Supplemented as before, it would probably last considerably longer.
> 
> Dang, I love this group!


Please be careful with storing dog food ... last year I pulled a stashed bag out of my own stores and it came within minutes of killing my dog because of spoilage I couldn't see. He started getting clumsy and sliding across the floor (I responded by trimming his nails.) After a couple weeks of this he launched into a massive seizure. If I didn't live a 5-minute drive from the emergency vet clinic I would have lost him.

The vet said it's very rare that dogs survive this kind of seizure, and it's brought on by ingesting toxins. She grilled me for several minutes about what he might have eaten over the past few hours - chocolate? Garlic? Cannabis? Antidepressants? Mushrooms? What about anything with mold on it? My heart skipped a beat and I told her about the dog food ... it didn't smell moldy, but to be safe when I went home I duct-taped the container shut, wrote POISON all over it for the dumpster-divers, and trashed it. Rover and I were both terrorized by the experience, and he hasn't been the same since.

It also occurs to me that the risk of toxins would be inherent with roadkill and feral animals. If they got into something toxic before they died, it would still be in their systems as well.

I wasn't at all scientific about how I stored the stuff, but it was in a closet for about two years. You probably know a lot more about safe storage than I do ... but it's something to be aware of. I don't keep any more than one small bag of kibble in reserve any more, and I ALWAYS use it first before replacing it.

I'm a big believer in frugality and preparedness, but there are sometimes when it can backfire - objects are replaceable, but humans and animals are not. Food for thought.


----------



## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

bkt said:


> In keeping with the earlier "first place to raid" post, I present this notion:
> 
> How would you deal with family or close friends who, at the onset of a particularly nasty event, showed up at your door saying "I remember you saying you prepare for such events. Can we come in?"...


I'd figure you are doomed and your OPSEC is either nonexistent or just plain lousy.


----------



## k0xxx (Oct 27, 2011)

notyermomma said:


> Please be careful with storing dog food ....


Wow, thanks for the great advice and info! We store the dog food exactly the same way that we store our own, by vacuum sealing (oxygen absorbers) in mylar bags. So far we haven't had a problem. We constantly rotate the food, but we will start being extra careful and dating the bags when they are sealed, so we don't inadvertently forget to rotate.


----------



## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

Originally Posted by bkt View Post 
In keeping with the earlier "first place to raid" post, I present this notion:

How would you deal with family or close friends who, at the onset of a particularly nasty event, showed up at your door saying "I remember you saying you prepare for such events. Can we come in?"...

1) you knew the SHTF??
2) you opened the door??


----------



## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

notyermomma said:


> Please be careful with storing dog food ... last year I pulled a stashed bag out of my own stores and it came within minutes of killing my dog because of spoilage I couldn't see. He started getting clumsy and sliding across the floor (I responded by trimming his nails.) After a couple weeks of this he launched into a massive seizure. If I didn't live a 5-minute drive from the emergency vet clinic I would have lost him.
> 
> The vet said it's very rare that dogs survive this kind of seizure, and it's brought on by ingesting toxins. She grilled me for several minutes about what he might have eaten over the past few hours - chocolate? Garlic? Cannabis? Antidepressants? Mushrooms? What about anything with mold on it? My heart skipped a beat and I told her about the dog food ... it didn't smell moldy, but to be safe when I went home I duct-taped the container shut, wrote POISON all over it for the dumpster-divers, and trashed it. Rover and I were both terrorized by the experience, and he hasn't been the same since.
> 
> ...


I'm glad your dog came through okay! that can be very scary stuff!

I use Vittles Vaults for storing food, for cats, rabbits and dogs... and I've had tremendous success. I think anything with an airtight ant-proof lid would do the job, but this brand has served me well so far. I usually buy the 2x 60lb containers when it's on sale at Petco.com

The lbs rating is for dog kibble, I will be able to store 150 lbs ++ in those two containers (based on buying pellets already). I really think I'll be able to do almost 200 lbs.


----------



## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

JayJay said:


> Originally Posted by bkt View Post
> In keeping with the earlier "first place to raid" post, I present this notion:
> 
> How would you deal with family or close friends who, at the onset of a particularly nasty event, showed up at your door saying "I remember you saying you prepare for such events. Can we come in?"...
> ...


I make it quite clear that driving 400 miles to get here is a lot of wasted time, effort and gasoline because I will not be here when SHTF, and I will have left and they've only moved themselves into a different place to die.

I'm not leaving a forwarding address, bread crumbs or anything else.. so trying to get "here" is absurd.

Additionally there are family members that I do prep for being here, although they don't know it, and there is family that is not welcome here. IF/WHEN SHTF... they are going to need to make wise decisions, and showing up at Dak's place is not a good decision. I've isolated myself intentionally and I'm considering moving from CA to possibly somewhere in PNW or maybe even the east coast like NH.


----------



## piglett (Dec 10, 2010)

Dakine said:


> I've isolated myself intentionally and I'm considering moving from CA to possibly somewhere in PNW or maybe even the east coast like NH.


i'm already in the middle of NH.

plenty of like minded people in the area

& we have plenty of room for more

piglett


----------



## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

I would pass on NH because it is surrounded by, . . . well you know what's up there. As a result I expect NH to be invaded by zombies from neighboring states.

If you're going to move you don't want to just have to move again in a few years.


----------



## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

bkt said:


> Nice work! You have articulated what my group has done on its own without really putting it down in writing what makes sense to to. Mind if I borrow this and tweak it to my needs?


You are more then welcomed to copy, change, amend and use as you see fit.


----------



## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

LincTex said:


> It is a good start, but doesn't address bahavior, constructive criticism, or punishment.


Not in detail. Indirectly it does.

...has the grounded belief that God is their ultimate hope and source of strength.

For routine matters and when time is not critical, Family Units will decide issues by a majority vote.

For matters that are not routine or are time critical, the majority of the Leadership will make the final decision.

NO new members will be invited to join until all of the MAG members have voted unanimously to invite the proposed new member to join.

A ⅔ majority is required for a "Lost of Confidence" vote to remove a Leader of either Group or to ask a Family Unit to leave.

Using the above as a guide:

A Member errors. Advise from their respective Group Leader should resolve the situation.

If it does not then that Member and Group Leader together will petition the Leadership for redress.

Leadership will decided if the matter can wait until the next Membership meeting for a vote or if not then Leadership will resolve the problem.

We believe that with God fearing, God abiding members that this will not be a major problem.


----------



## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

Geek999 said:


> I would pass on NH because it is surrounded by, . . . well you know what's up there. As a result I expect NH to be invaded by zombies from neighboring states.
> 
> If you're going to move you don't want to just have to move again in a few years.


well, yeah.... except here I'm surrounded eyeballs deep in alligators with the libtards, they are up close and personal already!

when the zombies want to move in, when an entire state population says "uhhh... I don't think so" with one voice... the zombies aren't going to be happy.

One of the prepper novels I read was about how WY was a better choice for Free State Project then NH, and that may be true, but NH has business that I can do (and support myself well) while the world is just ducky! Wyoming... that gets complicated much faster.

I don't see NH getting overrun by the zombies, I see a wall of lead moving zombies into the sea.

Having the right time and place to jump, a job, and some kind of agreement to be able to move onto and purchase the land I will occupy and work, that is my concern.

I've been focusing on getting out of debt, and now I've got some more options. I hate moving tho... but I really do need to leave, CA is an anchor on my soul.

I would really like to stop paying the weather tax in SoCal and quietly depart this place, no rude gestures, no indignant statements, just a full tank of gas, the trucks loaded and a place to get to. The more I think about it...


----------



## notyermomma (Feb 11, 2014)

Dakine said:


> Having the right time and place to jump, a job, and some kind of agreement to be able to move onto and purchase the land I will occupy and work, that is my concern.
> 
> I've been focusing on getting out of debt, and now I've got some more options.


Dakine, I don't know what your situation is, but I had a great experience with these guys. If it weren't for them, I'd still be dodging bullets in my old crack 'hood. Debt stinks. Best of luck to you.


----------



## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Dakine said:


> well, yeah.... except here I'm surrounded eyeballs deep in alligators with the libtards, they are up close and personal already!
> 
> when the zombies want to move in, when an entire state population says "uhhh... I don't think so" with one voice... the zombies aren't going to be happy.
> 
> ...


I understand the need to leave CA. I need to leave NJ. I just don't think that NH can remain an island of sanity while sharing a border with Kennedyland, so it has got red lines through it, along with 24 other states, on the map in front of me as I write this.


----------



## piglett (Dec 10, 2010)

Geek999 said:


> I understand the need to leave CA. I need to leave NJ. I just don't think that NH can remain an island of sanity while sharing a border with Kennedyland, so it has got red lines through it, along with 24 other states, on the map in front of me as I write this.


if it gets nasty (grid down event)

we will close the roads heading north

NH is 200 miles from bottom to top

plenty of room nice BOL if you want one


----------



## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

piglett said:


> if it gets nasty (grid down event)
> 
> we will close the roads heading north
> 
> ...


Sounds good, but too many MA expats are there now, with more on the way. By the time it gets nasty NH may be a Boston suburb.


----------



## Justin_Time (Jun 6, 2014)

Dakine may I suggest wisconsin 
While I highly dislike a lot of the people here after 10 years of research I think it's the safest state to be in just about every shtf situation almost but doesn't quite reach here.
Not saying that a shtf wouldn't affect this state just not quote as hard.

I think only a direct meteor hit or a snow ball earth would completely eradicate us but then again that could get anyone


----------



## northstarprepper (Mar 19, 2013)

I would agree on the northern two-thirds of Wisconsin along with any area of Minnesota over a hundred miles from the Twin Cities. Those hundred miles would eat up most of the gangs and zombies, while the out state people have plenty of guns, land, and know how to exist in any grid down or SHTF situation. Plenty of lakes, rivers and game in both states to support a healthy, hard-working group of people. I am prepared both to bug in or out, depending on the scenario. My son was looking into buying hunting land next to a large state forest in northern MN as a bug out location also. Not sure I want to go north after the last two winters we've had though.


----------



## Justin_Time (Jun 6, 2014)

I love MN I love the people there. I actually found my wife there. The only real problem I have with the state is that if Yellowstone go's up the ash cloud will reach 3 miles east from the Mississippi


----------



## Bushpig (Feb 20, 2014)

Out of our family and friends who are not prepping, only 2 of them know what we are doing. We have been very careful to see where family and friends stand on prepping before divulging any real info for this very reason alone. The 2 that know only 1 has any valuable skills and if he and his wife show up they would be welcomed if they get here before we leave. Neither of the 2 know where our BOL is located as we just don't take anyone out there. The small group we do have has agreed that we all would prepare for our family+2 so that in a total grid down long term situation we would be able to take in select people. We realize it doesn't matter how far away you are eventually someone will come across you.


----------

