# How Much Longer Till Everything Falls Apart



## neil-v1

I know nobody knows for sure but I was wondering what peoples opinions are to how much quality time we have left to prepare before the wheels really come off? Any opinions?


----------



## NaeKid

I was talkin' with a buddy about this very subject this past weekend as we were moving him and his missus from his "in-town" acreage to his "out-of-town" acreage. He was telling me that he is building up a 1976 Blazer as his EMP-proof / anti-zombie / BOV.

We both figure that the the world as we know it will be done in 10 to 15 years and then it will be a "new-age" in humanity - if there is much humanity left after that point-in-time.


----------



## kyfarmer

If anyone can survive the coming FUBAR, which i think won't be ten years away. Might just be able to make it. I think they are smart to get while the gettin's good.


----------



## mitchshrader

It would take considerable political will to avoid some of the likely results of our most recent generations spendthrift borrowing. 

It is, however, technically and actually, manageable if those who can do it, WILL do it, and that's difficult to believe. 

Enough force, applied correctly, to unkink our fiscal policies and remove the cost of credit as a factor in our daily government operations. . 

Enough force to require adequate capital reserves, and adequate investments in local businesses, for banks chartered to operate anywhere in the states..

Enough force to protect R&D and penalize cost overruns and enough force to require one years social service for anyone not joining the military. And anybody wants to write a check and get out of it, it's 50K$. 

We need political will. Obama showed what could be accomplished with a professional organization riding a wave of populist sentiment. I can't see you'll whup him with less. 

The Tea party may or may not make it to the election this time, Sarah has done her level best to monetize conservative enthusiasm and then cash the check.. 

as have others. I hope it does make it to the election, without too many nutcases in the front row. Taxed Enough Already.


----------



## pdx210

Humm..what will be the tipping crisis

dirty bombs, global cooling in the bread basket reducing crop yields causing starvation, chaos,panic 

War say Vs. china, Iran N.korea that goes nuclear 

global pandemic with a nasty virus 

civil war in the USA ..i think this is closer than many think. 

economic upheaval 

Peak oil and an end to consumerism, cheap easy energy and comfort


----------



## sinbad

How about NOT worrying about it ??
I don't mean not preparing What I mean : prep for the worst and hope for the best. 

I am over 50 and so are many of my firends. I have seen enough heart attacks around me so far and I don't intend to join the statistics. Worring about what might happen and how it may happen certainly doesn't help anyone relax. Our daily problems and dealing with so many opposite-minded folks (soemtimes that includes our better halves ) is enough worrying for middle-aged men like us. 

So, I suggest we try to give ourselves a break.


----------



## wildman800

*I agree with Sinbad...*

Prepping for the threats that one can see as possibilities, is wise.

Worrying about things that one can't influence is a waste of energy and is truly bad for one's health.

I have prepped as much as I am able, and it is a steady, ongoing process. I sleep good at night and I am able to relax and enjoy life, as I know that I have the means to mitigate whatever affects a local, national, or global disaster is going to cause. :beercheer:


----------



## Littlebit

wildman800 said:


> Prepping for the threats that one can see as possibilities, is wise.
> 
> Worrying about things that one can't influence is a waste of energy and is truly bad for one's health.
> 
> I have prepped as much as I am able, and it is a steady, ongoing process. I sleep good at night and I am able to relax and enjoy life, as I know that I have the means to mitigate whatever affects a local, national, or global disaster is going to cause. :beercheer:


:2thumb: I agree. Knowing your prepared for anything is better then not being prepared


----------



## pioneergirl

I think it will come sooner than we think, and no matter what "it" is, all we can do is hone our skills and prepare as best we can. DH and I expanded our garden, expanded our library, and have a few other "skills" in the works. All in all, we started this adventure/change in lifestyle not for if or when SHTF, but because we wanted to get back to a simpler life....but thats a different thread


----------



## HozayBuck

pioneergirl said:


> I think it will come sooner than we think, and no matter what "it" is, all we can do is hone our skills and prepare as best we can. DH and I expanded our garden, expanded our library, and have a few other "skills" in the works. All in all, we started this adventure/change in lifestyle not for if or when SHTF, but because we wanted to get back to a simpler life....but thats a different thread


I like your attitude PG, the simple life is the best way to go, if one is living it daily the coming SHTF just won't be that big a deal.

To most Americans a day without a latte is a SHTF day!! for most kids not having a Play Station is a tragedy of horror!! for most discovering the Microwave is out is truly a SHTF, how will we eat??? we can't cook our food!!!!

Folks in a lot of the US really weren't bothered by the Depression, my mom said they were so dirt poor they never noticed it start and were still so poor when it ended they never noticed it was gone.

I said just the other day that if nothing else we can live on eggs and tree rats, not joking!!!.. I think that day we had 21 doz eggs in the fridge, all free range eggs...the best kind... I gave away most of them to friends, now there is 17 or more dozen ... this is truly a SHTF!!!

If your growing your food now and living simple you will be light years ahead of 98% of the rest... keep your head down and don't make waves and your going to be alright.

I've ceased worrying over nukes, if they come I'll do what I can but that's it, I believe not owing money and living simple will help when the Monetary SHTF comes home to roost...

A financial collapse has the potential to drop the entire world to it's knees then we humans will finish the job with riots and war between ourselves fighting for scraps.. and it could happen over night .


----------



## sinbad

I agree that having little money sometimes frees you from a lot of stress. 

A few years ago I was building my house and spent all my money then on finishing it. Almost none was left in the bank and my stock portfolio was more empty than my bank account. 

Then in Feb 2006 , we had a big crash of the stock market. It was baaaad !!!! All kinds of funny and not so funny things happened. There is a U-tube where one guy goes berserk . He stands in front of a bank, pulls down his underwear and ..... you get the picture.

I felt and prayed for those who lost their life saving, but felt a big relief for myself and my family that ALL the money we had went into building materials. We lived paycheck to paycheck but at least we weren't going to hospitals or jails.


----------



## GroovyMike

society has already spiralled down like a semi clogged toilet bowl to a point where your great grand parents would be disgusted at what passes for normal. It will continue to get worse and worse, but a trigger event - such as grid failure or pandemic would only accelerate it. All you can do is enjoy day to day and make every day count to prepare your household for what we all know is coming and what may come. If you want to prepare for the ultimate end game, get right with God.


----------



## sailaway

GroovyMike said:


> society has already spiralled down like a semi clogged toilet bowl to a point where your great grand parents would be disgusted at what passes for normal. It will continue to get worse and worse, but a trigger event - such as grid failure or pandemic would only accelerate it. All you can do is enjoy day to day and make every day count to prepare your household for what we all know is coming and what may come. If you want to prepare for the ultimate end game, get right with God.


I concur!, but I'm going to be comfortable and relaxed the whole time!:2thumb:


----------



## pdx210

sinbad said:


> How about NOT worrying about it ??


I wouldn't consider it worrying You need to contemplate the future in order to prepare for it. The few scenarios i put out there pose some unique issues.

on a side note, In the 1950's, 60's and 70's there was a big survivalist movement in southern Oregon they where certain of impending upheaval/ nuclear war very soon..yet here we are?


----------



## pioneergirl

> To most Americans a day without a latte is a SHTF day!! for most kids not having a Play Station is a tragedy of horror!! for most discovering the Microwave is out is truly a SHTF, how will we eat??? we can't cook our food!!!!


Completely agree....if McDonald's shut down, life as some people know it will stop! I know more teenagers that without their electronics, they are so completely lost they nearly curl up in a corner and bawl.



> A financial collapse has the potential to drop the entire world to it's knees then we humans will finish the job with riots and war between ourselves fighting for scraps.. and it could happen over night


Glad I'm not the only one who sees this....In the first 24hrs of collapse, a majority will die from the rioting/looting/panic alone. Those that are left (I'm talking about a "Mad Max" scenario) won't go too far out of their comfort zone simply because they either A: don't have the knowledge/skills to make the cars go too far, or the knowledge/skills to make decent weapons, and I would venture to guess that many that are left will still kill each other off due to lack of organization and survivability. Those of us in the country who posses these skills have no worries.

I say....JMO


----------



## NaeKid

But ... I have seen several collapses of the financial markets where people have lost "everything" of monetary value and having the debt-collectors come out of the woodwork to reclaim everything that they held dear-to-them. No riots that I know of - but - quite a few suicides did happen - all attributed to their portfolios.

No - I don't believe that the finances will be the key-factor to riots - but - lack of food, lack of water or a real war can bring about riots (and the related zombies).

I believe that EMP is a possibility, but, slightly remote and I believe that preparing for an IceAge is the best way for me to spend my time / money / resources.


----------



## TechAdmin

I think the inevitability of financial ruin, probably in the next decade. I wish it wasn't though. I wonder what effect the Greece issue is going to have on our present economy but from what I read we in Canada and the US have a little while before it really touches us. The new thing that has me worried is the oil spilling into the Gulf. I had plans to go to South Padre Island for vacation, but now I'm thinking that might not happen if they can't find a way to stop it. If it doesn't get stopped I can see a collapse in the next couple of years.


----------



## marlas1too

kbar its not furbar anymore its now BOHICA=bend over here it comes again and i say the same thing 10-20 yrs and we are finished then we have to crawl out of our holes and start over again


----------



## UncleJoe

pioneergirl said:


> Those of us in the country who posses these skills have no worries.


We live in the country about 8 miles from a town of 8000, 20 miles from a city of 50,000 and about 100 miles from a major metro area. I wish I could share your comfort and feeling of security. 
While I agree, there will be a large die off in the cities in a SHTF situation, the survivors will be the stronger of the lot and they're still going to need stuff. The country is where they will be headed. In order to do the everyday things that need to be done on a small farm, some type of full time security will be needed just so you aren't caught off guard by those roving gangs out to take whatever they need by any means necessary. DW and I have talked about this occasionally over the last year or so and still haven't come up with a viable solution to this type of scenario. :dunno:


----------



## pioneergirl

I agree to an extent.....we live 7 miles from a town of 1500. I guess living in a very rural/farm community where everyone owns a gun gives me a sense of security. I am quite proficient with my bow, but I agree, there has to be some type of vigilance. I read a sign somewhere that said "If you can read this, you are in range"....I had to laugh! I'm 2 hours or more from any real MAJOR city, so I guess I'll take it as it comes. 

When I see the riots in Greece, over not a collapse but the mishandling of their money, I often wonder what a true collapse would bring. I also read somewhere that one should have a "secret spot" they could go to quickly should the zombies invade their country home. Of course, another option was to make your place look like its already been ransacked, thus deterring said zombies. But this is all off topic. 

When will "it" happen? I think very soon.....


----------



## wildman800

I'm looking at November, after the elections for things to actually fall apart. I think we will see significant "fireworks" in large cities in early to mid-July.

Most states will start their new annual budgets on June 1st. Every state is going to be making drastic cutbacks on Social Programs and a lot of innocent people (handicapped and senior/retired persons) are going to be dealt a serious economic blow, as well as a whole lot of lazy deadbeats who expect "th gubmint" to take care of their needs. Combine that with the summer heat, rising food and utilities' costs.

That will NOT be when things fall apart but it will mark the beginning of the end. If it goes down as I expect?????


----------



## UncleJoe

pioneergirl said:


> But this is all off topic.


Yeah. I guess I forgot to actually answer the question, 

I'd be surprised if we don't start seeing trouble before the end of the year. Stimulus can only go so far and a lot of it is coming to an end.


----------



## sinbad

Scenarios up there are logical but lets try to be optimistic. 
Many many people thought y2k , and then nothing happened.


----------



## GroovyMike

sinbad said:


> Scenarios up there are logical but lets try to be optimistic.
> Many many people thought y2k , and then nothing happened.


Arguably, "nothing happened" BECAUSE so many people worked on the fix.


----------



## mosquitomountainman

We're expecting economic failure to be the most likely. There could be a lot of in-between things going on as the world goes through a cycle of inflation, unemployment, taxation, cuts in services.

It's very possible we are heading to another Civil War in the US. That will depend upon how things go politically to some extent and may also be linked to the economic problems.

Next is terrorist activity. Could be about anything from Islamic terrorism to eco-terrorists wanting to destroy human life to save the planet. Worldwide I believe Islam is the greatest threat to western civilization we've seen in a long time.


----------



## allen_idaho

I think first comes the economic failure as you said. 

But then comes an oil failure. Since we won't be able to afford it anymore. And that means millions of cars will become lawn ornaments. Roads will no longer be paved. Plastic products will no longer be manufactured. Some essential petrochemical pharmaceuticals will no longer be available. 

And since thousands if not millions of oil based businesses in the US won't have a product to sell, the economy will crumble even further. There are a lot of gas stations, car dealerships, and auto mechanics out there. 

Millions out of work. Food will need to be grown domestically since it can no longer be delivered by refrigerated truck.

In the wake of that chaos, I could potentially see a Coup D'Etat taking place or some other item to spark off a civil war. There will always be those who blame the politicians for not doing enough to avert this disaster. There are those who just don't like having a black president. Whatever the reason, it could be a strong possibility. 

Of course, without tanks or aircraft, it would be a long, bloody ground battle. Something that could never be won by either side because you will never know who your enemy is.


----------



## rhrobert

Well, if the web-bots are to be believed, and they have an 80% track record of the correct dates while the "incidents" are fuzzy (they predicted 9/11 as a major tipping point in the US), July 8th, 2010 may start out the civil unrest, and an Israel-Iran war in November along with an economic collapse at the same time will be the final straw.

There is apparently a "data gap" between 2012 and 2013 which might be due to a complete electronic meltdown, reverting us back. 2017 will bring about a new capitalist system.

Millennium Ark: Hot News

So, I'll just continue doing what I'm doing, paying the world no never mind. Continue prepping, continue working, and wait for whatever disasters come my way. It's all I can do. While I know the hour quickly approaches, I sure as heck don't know the day.


----------



## sailaway

People are already turning their cash for clunkers cars in, they can't afford the payments.


----------



## sinbad

sinbad said:


> Scenarios up there are logical but lets try to be optimistic.
> Many many people thought y2k , and then nothing happened.





GroovyMike said:


> Arguably, "nothing happened" BECAUSE so many people worked on the fix.


OK Mike. 
My next question isn't for the sake of arguing, its aimed at finding a possible little candle at the end of the tunnel.

If so many people worked on fixing THAT problem , why don't same or other people try to fix THIS problem ? What's the difference here and there ?


----------



## NaeKid

sinbad said:


> OK Mike.
> My next question isn't for the sake of arguing, its aimed at finding a possible little candle at the end of the tunnel.
> 
> If so many people worked on fixing THAT problem , why don't same or other people try to fix THIS problem ? What's the difference here and there ?


I was on one of the crews on the "fix" for Y2K putting in many hours on upgrades to the BIOS of computers and to upgrades / updates to the operating systems and programs. It was easy to do because it is just simple code that needed to be adjusted to recognize a 4-digit year instead of a 2-digit year.

As for the problems with humanity - there are too many variables involved (read: personalities) that there is no "fix" for the corruption and the allowances of corruption in the governments of the world. Going back to a feudal society could help cure many of our problems - but - at the same time, could create more problems.

I don't think that there is a way to really fix the problems we have.


----------



## jungatheart

NaeKid said:


> I don't think that there is a way to really fix the problems we have.


I agree. In the book "Hotel New Hampshire" they had a saying that went something like this: Sometimes all you can do is to keep walking past the open windows. Meaning: sometimes all a person can do is to not commit suicide and I think this is one of those times. If for no other reason than to see how it all shakes out.


----------



## NORTH

Hey folks, I know the last post was a coulpe of days ago but I've been away for a bit. I have a feeling that we are headed for an economic collapse. I also think it isn't all that far off, maybe a year or two. Did you see when the stock market dropped almost a thousand points in just a few minutes because some guy punched in the wrong numbers? THAT is how fragile our market is, when everything just crashes and it's all gone, no money, no jobs, it can happen in minutes! Something to think about, someone said their parents were so poor that they didn't hardly notice the great depression, well most people these days are NOT that poor, even those sucking up the government cheese welfare folks, what I mean is people are used to a higher standard of living these days, and there are a LOT more people now. When the collapse comes and folks go to the bank and it's closed for business and debit cards don't work and they need to feed thier families, well, thats when things will get really ugly really fast. You know as well as I do that most people these days already suffer from a lack of respect for other people, so with that said, any thing and everything will be fair game, if someone wants it they are gonna have to take it.And they will try, many will die in the process. I do stock food and water and try to have enough, but for how long, and also having a stockpile will make you a HUGE target, you have it, they want it. I have never taken a life, and I hope to God that I never have to, but if it's me or them then I know the outcome of that. I am also of the opinion that this whole problem is because our government is too big, to power hungry and too, way too over-regulating. They(the gov) have overstepped their Constitutionally limited boundarys. Well, that was longer than I thought it would be!


----------



## Expeditioner

sinbad said:


> How about NOT worrying about it ??
> I don't mean not preparing What I mean : prep for the worst and hope for the best.
> 
> I am over 50 and so are many of my firends. I have seen enough heart attacks around me so far and I don't intend to join the statistics. Worring about what might happen and how it may happen certainly doesn't help anyone relax. Our daily problems and dealing with so many opposite-minded folks (soemtimes that includes our better halves ) is enough worrying for middle-aged men like us.
> 
> So, I suggest we try to give ourselves a break.


I agree Sinbad.


----------



## Vertigo

Hi all,

It's been a while since I last was active on the forums, so first of all I hope everyone is doing fine and may you all be blessed in your preparations.

Now over to the topic at hand:

I am completely convinced 'it' will be a long, slow slide of recession. No major wars, civil wars, nuclear wars and the like are plausible in my opinion. In summation, there will not be a 'major SHTF situation' that people will be able to point to afterwards and say, that's when things got messy. Especially not in the Western countries. 

- Although I am not doing the generation that is growing up now (and to which I belong), any favours, I think most of you will agree with me that this generation just does not have the stomach to seriously challenge the social constructs of today. They have been breast fed from day one to pick the easy way, the non-risk way. And they have such a strong sense of entitlement, they would rather starve to death than lift up one finger to help themselves.

- 'Big' issues like radical Islam, geo-terrorism, are not convincing arguments anymore. For one, Islam does not need to fight to win the day, they will just breed us out. (A couple of days ago, the news gave the confirmation that more than 50% of all people in Belgium's capital are of foreign decent right now, either first or second generation. And of which 85% are islamic). Geo-terrorism, is also complete bullocks since having ideas of 'loving mother nature' are luxuries that cannot be afforded once you have no food in your belly. Just listen to the reports that come from Africa, where farmers are told they must not farm so intensively as to not harm their environment...:nuts:

- A nuclear war, although quite possible still, is not something I would really worry about. Of course if only one nuke were to be launched by some state or nation, this would start up multiple waves of retaliation and the settlement of some 'old scores' and within minutes the entire planet would be engulfed by the full-on nuclear war. Meaning things like, high radiation levels everywhere, resulting in the death of almost all animal life, and with it a lot of plant life. Or nuclear winters, so cold it would kill anyone who hasn't died from radiation first. Therefore I exclude this scenario. Not only because there is almost nothing one can do to prepare themselves for this (and the decade long aftermath) but mainly because all the players on the map that have these nuclear devices, also know this. They all fully understand that if only one goes off, there will be a chain reaction, and thus there is no way to gain some strategic advantage over a foe. 

Now over to the things I do believe will happen.

- This economic recession, despite what popular media will try to convince their audience, will only get worse. The reason being that nothing really changed fundamentally since this crisis started. What this will mean is higher food prices, higher oil prices, or more in general, an overall drop in standard of living. Because a lot of people are not prepared to live of less this year, they were living of last year, there will be an increase in civil unrest. Maybe some protesters will come together and burn a couple of cars and ransack some shops. Or a very active black market (with all its vices and excrements of society) will come about. 

- Because of these overall increases in agression and violence of society, there will be more police brutality (not that I blame the police, when a mob of 2000 strong is marching towards the city centre, flinging molotov cocktails around and destroying property, some noses are bound to impact a police baton) and also a bigger call for more security. In a sense, people will be living in a police state, afraid of their own shadows. 

- Martial law would be declared for a limited number of cities, just to get the people back under control. Or in the case of a natural disaster, à la Katrina, I am sure the government would have things under control much faster (by ignoring everyone's civil rights). 

- Overall, it will not be possible to define the bad guys, it will not be possible to point with your finger to some official and say, 'you are to be blamed for all of this'. Neither will you be able to batten down the hatches and ride it out, because the duration of this slow slide will be way to long for anyone. 

For a good mental picture, have a look at society in the movie 'Children of Men'. It depicts the situation in Britain, a few years into the future. (Just forget about fertility issues in that movie, but look at how society is structured and how people live their lives). 

Anyway, this is already lenghty enough so I'll first let everyone comment some, in order to advance the discussion.

Best regards and take care,

V.


----------



## allen_idaho

That's the funny thing with nukes these days. You don't need to launch a missile anymore. You just rig up a warhead or build a dirty bomb and deliver it by land. 

Zero warning, maximum casualties, and the obliteration of an entire major city. Given the amount of nuclear weaponry and material that has been lost, stolen, or sold around the world, you could probably get your hands on some tomorrow. 

Hell, if you have your own deep sea salvage company, you can get nuclear missiles, nuclear bombs, nuclear tipped torpedoes, nuclear material, and a variety of chemical weapons that have been dumped or lost in the sea over the last several decades.


----------



## Vertigo

allen_idaho said:


> That's the funny thing with nukes these days. You don't need to launch a missile anymore. You just rig up a warhead or build a dirty bomb and deliver it by land.
> 
> Zero warning, maximum casualties, and the obliteration of an entire major city. Given the amount of nuclear weaponry and material that has been lost, stolen, or sold around the world, you could probably get your hands on some tomorrow.
> 
> Hell, if you have your own deep sea salvage company, you can get nuclear missiles, nuclear bombs, nuclear tipped torpedoes, nuclear material, and a variety of chemical weapons that have been dumped or lost in the sea over the last several decades.


Well, I'm not exactly agreeing with these statements, not according to what I know about nuclear weapons (although I'm no expert, thats for sure)

First of all, a nuclear bomb that is exploded in for example the back of a truck, would do much, much less damage than a nuclear bomb dropped from a plane, or a missile. For starters, because a nuclear bomb is detonated a few hundred meters above ground, and secondly a nuclear missile seperates in a dozen or so smaller nuclear bombs that each explode in a different area. A bit like shrapnel from an airburst grenade, except that in this case, the shrapnel are nuclear bombs.

So as far as doing a lot of damage, it is actually very limited compared to what a nuclear device delivered by a military, would do. Especially in the case of a dirty bomb detonated on ground level, the radioactive particles really wouldn't go all that far.

In any case, the difference with a nation/state attacking with nuclear weapons, (using missiles or high altitude bombers) is very distinct in nature from a nuclear bomb attack by a group of terrorists. Therefore, such an attack would not immediatly start of a full out nuclear war in my opinion. I'm pretty sure, whenever something happens, they will check with NORAD first to know where it came from, and what it was.

And as my last point, thinking that retrieving old nuclear material from the deep sea is a smart thing to do, is just wrong in my opinon. As far as I know, all those kind of materials were dumped in 'deep sea', that means a couple of miles below the surface, where it is first of all impossible to get, much less to find them and secondly, even if you were able to get there, you would be salvaging bombs or other weapons, that have been there for at least a few years. Might not be the greatest job description ever: "We are looking for people to dig up 30 year old nuclear bombs, that are somewhere in a 50 mile radius from this location, about 1.5-3 miles under the surface".

So I'm not too worried about this,

V.


----------



## ZoomZoom

Vertigo said:


> Well, I'm not exactly agreeing with these statements, not according to what I know about nuclear weapons (although I'm no expert, thats for sure)
> 
> First of all, a nuclear bomb that is exploded in for example the back of a truck, would do much, much less damage than a nuclear bomb dropped from a plane, or a missile. For starters, because a nuclear bomb is detonated a few hundred meters above ground, and secondly a nuclear missile seperates in a dozen or so smaller nuclear bombs that each explode in a different area. A bit like shrapnel from an airburst grenade, except that in this case, the shrapnel are nuclear bombs.
> 
> So as far as doing a lot of damage, it is actually very limited compared to what a nuclear device delivered by a military, would do. Especially in the case of a dirty bomb detonated on ground level, the radioactive particles really wouldn't go all that far.


A nuke exploded at ground level can in fact be more damaging in the aspect that it will generate a lot more radioactive debris that will get kicked up into the atmosphere and be spread around.

For an analogy, imagine a stick of dynomite being exploded 50' in the air. Lots of noise but little dust kicked up. Explode a piece at or below ground level and it'll throw lots of material into the air.


----------



## allen_idaho

That is true. The difference between an airburst and a surface burst is the fallout. 

You see, fallout is the irradiated debris thrown into the atmosphere by the nuclear blast. When you have a surface burst, you get an air blast, thermal radiation,, initial radiation, an EMP, and plenty of fallout capable of stretching for miles. 

With an air burst below 100,000 feet altitude, you still get an air blast, thermal radiation, initial radiation and an EMP. But you will not get any fallout unless you have rain clouds passing through the radioactive cloud. In which case, the rain will be irradiated.


----------



## truthismyname33

*Nobody knows for sure......*



neil-v1 said:


> I know nobody knows for sure but I was wondering what peoples opinions are to how much quality time we have left to prepare before the wheels really come off? Any opinions?


The time to prepare is now if you haven't being doing so already. Your list...should have been made at the least. I don't about anyone else but for myself, just making it on one paycheck seems like it's never enough, but WE'RE still here!

Take steps....even if it's baby steps. Buy an extra can of this, or a little bit of that. Throw that into your bin and look back on a weekly basis and see how far you've gotten. I'm now five bins full! Never touch a firearm in my entire life until of late. Been to the range, safety classes and taken some self defense also.

My children.....know nothing about where we heading. I would like to keep them as innocent and pure as they are right now. We have a drill that we go through at least three times a week. They have absolutely no clue as to "why" we are constantly "playing this game". All they know is... "it's a fun game mommy"! 

READY, SET, let'ssssss Go! Let me see who can get their shoes and clothes on first! Whoever lines up by the door first is the winner! Okay everybody into the van, now! Okay, Sara, you won! :congrat: Then off we go to the grocery store, laundry, or wherever. They love it! Such innocence.

When is it time to prepare you asked? Preparations in my opinion should be in it's final stage. After doing all that you can do, and in doing..... I mean, what is in THE BEST INTEREST OF YOU AND YOUR LOVE ONES SAKE, you should be either in your SPOT, and/or on your way there!

A prudent person foresees danger and takes precautions. The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.

Peace to you.


----------



## Vertigo

bczoom said:


> A nuke exploded at ground level can in fact be more damaging in the aspect that it will generate a lot more radioactive debris that will get kicked up into the atmosphere and be spread around.
> 
> For an analogy, imagine a stick of dynomite being exploded 50' in the air. Lots of noise but little dust kicked up. Explode a piece at or below ground level and it'll throw lots of material into the air.


My apologies then bczoom and Allen, I stand corrected. As I said I'm no expert, its just what I thought I picked up.

V.


----------



## 101airborne

According to some people I am aquainted with that are "in the loop" tell me to accelerate my preps even as well prepared as we ( wife and I) we need to do it faster. Most say it's highly unlikely that we will need to worry about November elections. If we last as we are until then, we surely won't last until the end of the year. With the geopolitical situation as it is I tend to agree with them.


----------



## allen_idaho

Good advice.


----------



## Clarice

I believe the "it" will be a financial collapse. And it will come soon. We started preparing last year after a feeling I got and expressed to my husband. The crazy thing about these feelings of mine is they always come true. I don't tell many people about them because they will think I'm nuts. The strange thing about this is the week after getting this feeling the local grocery store changed their store brand and put all of their previous store brand on sale for 50 cents ea. We were able to load up on cases of fruit and vegies, health & beauty aids, matches and cleaning supplies. That got us started. Along with our home canned items we have a good start. I truly believe your first instinct about something is God speaking and all else is you tring to out guess God. Prepare for the worst and pray for the best.


----------



## Magus

neil-v1 said:


> I know nobody knows for sure but I was wondering what peoples opinions are to how much quality time we have left to prepare before the wheels really come off? Any opinions?


It's happening as we post.I look for some "prepared occurrence" right at election time.


----------



## lotsoflead

November,unless we go into Pakistan next month or Israel whacks Iran, either one will change the world abruptly.Clinton is over in Vietnam making a deal with them for nukes and claims they're our allies, yeah right after killing a few million of them and running out and giving them to the commies. Many things going on right now,The market is taking a nose dive.


----------



## survivaltime

*Many Possibilities...take yer pick!*

I'm watching ALL kinds of things which could serve as the trigger to an end or catastrophic disruption to society. You have:

Iran's nuclear power plant, if attacked would likely cause war beteen US, Russia, China and Pakistan.

Oil leaks in the gulf poisoning our food/water leading to crop loss, animal deaths and famine.

Earthquakes/Volcanic eruptions (particularly YellowStone in Wyoming) which would impact the entire planet for years to come.]

Financial collapse, beyond recovery...smaller examples of it were when banks went belly-up and KEPT people's money. If/When JP Morgan/Chase goes...so does funding for 40+ million on foodstamps, leading to massive food riots nationwide.

Release of the new strain of flu (used as pretext for us to ALL accept their new flu vaccine which is a combination seasonal + H1N1.

Or...things will keep going as is and things get better....


----------



## InTheTrenches

*Time enough*

There is still time to make many changes if done on a personal basis. Food storage, food production, debt free living, and energy independance. Water is going to be the next challenge as counties are trying to monitor and tax the use of wells. Important to stand against this at the county levels.

There are also great opportunities for small independant business to build and independent retirement plans made. Yes, it is shorter than it once was but maybe this time was needed to provide the awakening needed. I remember 20, 10, and a year ago telling people not to count on social security and they scoffed.

I agree with all the statements that say in essence, do what we can and enjoy each day. Hope you will check out my blog 
In The Trenches - Budgeting for Financial Survival and Recovery

Hey, thanks.

Does anybody know where I can get these smiley? I NEED this soapbox one. :soapbox2:


----------



## Kiwi Will

Sure the s... is certainly gonna hit the fan in the next few years but your own health is more important initially. If you "kick the bucket" because of the stress of all the changes and challenges ahead, whats the point of worrying. I strongly, no.... S T R O N G L Y suggest reading a book called 
"The China Study" by one of your doc's, Mr T. Colin Campbell PhD.
I am certainly taking precautions but learning how to do away with the medical needs for most of us over 40 years old, is certainly going to be a huge benefit to ourselves first an foremost, as well as our immediate family. If we can cope with the difficulties that will inevitably be as common as muck, just think of it. If our health still allows us to offer time to help extended families and friends, then it doesn't matter when tshtf cause we will be far more able to cope and be a asset to ourselves & others. Personally, I think it will come when the Prime Pricks in the houses of power have used up all the ability to borrow any further facility and the economy crashes when the F ed says sorry, no more available. To my knowledge, the share market has usually been the 1st indicator and I imagine that the same will be the case this time. Then the rest of the world' s share markets will follow in unison. Anything saved by way of c ash under the mattress will be worthless and the new regional curr encies will be pushed through quickly to allow the so called 'confidence' in a new fi at curr ency probably controlled by the B of iS ( the known family owned central ban k)
I reckon that will be within the next 5 to ten years but its already started.
Learn to grow your own tucker and have lots of seed stocked up and sown. Meat is too expensive in terms of land space and if you do the research & read the studies, we humans don't need that animal protein. _(I can just see the disbelieving soles scoffing at that comment but I suggest you research it your selves.)_ Go get your hands in the dirt and grow many and varied vegetables and learn to gardening ways of your forefathers (and foremothers  ) Then throw some seeds in the ground in 'out of the way' places that are secret. Let them go to seed and go to waste. It maybe they are wasted for years but then again, maybe, they will be used next year when your home patch has been robbed or trampled.
Prepare for tomorrow and for tomorrows tomorrow and enjoy the experience.
Remember, they have won if you are stressed and scared & especially if your over weight and stressed and then end up useless to everyone while lying in your pine box.
You can loose all assets and family but they cant rob you of your knowledge.
Here's to you (as I lift my cuppa tea and wish you wellness)


----------



## Diego2112

DUH! December 21, 2012! The Mayans said so! So did Mother Shipton! AND the I Ching! We all KNOW the Webbot knows EVERYTHING, and Nostraldumbas was NEVER wrong, right? :lolsmash::lolsmash::lolsmash::lolsmash::lolsmash:

Ok, Ok, I'll get serious now: Any time, any place, any where. Examples? Haiti. Thailand. China. Sudan. May not be TEOTWAWKI, but I'd say that ANY of those places, the fit had DEFINITELY hit the shan!

I mean, ANYTHING could happen, tornados, massive thunderstorms, solar storms, hurricanes, polar shifts, yellowstone blowing it's top (polar shift and all SEVEN supervolcanos are going to go ... blewie... just like that goat that ate the dynamite, on Andy Griffith that one time? Oh come ON! that's the BEST EPISODE EVER!... er, back on track)... Kinda overwhelming, really...

The main thing to remember is, be prepared, or at least not get caught with your pants down, ja?

I know that's MY goal! Just keep prepping, against it all! Ya never know when you'll need food for 72 hours-1 year.

But yeah, if I had to call it, I'd say either late 2012 or early 2013. NASA said something about that's when solar storms are REALLY supposed to pick up, and the fringe people say that's when we're supposed to get a polar shift, and what's more...

*ITS AN ELECTION YEAR!*:surrender:

...

......

Maybe them Mayans WERE on to something...:scratch


----------



## greaseman

I think we are in the beginning of a collapse now. Look in your own community, and follow your gut instincts. Do you see anything that would show we have turned the corner on this downturn in the economy?? off course not. The governemnt lies everytime they open their yap. Their lap dogs in the MSM daily report things are going to get better. Maybe, but not before they hit bottom, and we aren't there yet. 
I encourage everyone to do their own research, look at the facts, not some fluff piece on the nightly news. They lie for a living, and they're good at it.
None of the solutions mentioned are going to work. The whole thing has to be started over after we hit bottom. We are way past simply voting some people out of office to cure our problems. The path to real change will surely have some violence attached. More and more people are daily realizing that they are being lied to in every way possible. They know that those thieving congressional reps don't represent them, but represent the lobby groups that pay them off. if this were not so, things would be different. people need to get over the idea of a Dems of republican problem, as they both have had a chance to do the right thing, and failed miserably every time.
So, get ready for a collapse much sooner than you think. The PTB know that they are working on a short leash, and the uneasy masses are on to them. The only way to keep control is for a collapse to happen much sooner than originally planned. Do not be surprised at anything that happens, from a monetary crisis, such as bank closings, or a fabricated domestic terrorists event. Everything is on the table, and the PTB wil use anything they think is necessary to keep control. That is the key word of the day--control, remember that.
Do your preps as fast as you can, and prepare to be shocked at the speed at which crisis can happen. We all have a front row seat. At least we have an idea of what's coming. I feel sorry for the sheeple who believe the drivel the government puts out. They will be the first to get trampelled in a food line, waiting for that government cheese. I have grown tired of trying to convince people to prepare for what's coming. Most choose to shrug it off as some nut job with a cause. Oh well, at least this nut job will have some food and water, and won't have to stand in line for a handout. How about you???


----------



## Diego2112

greaseman said:


> ... Do your preps as fast as you can, and prepare to be shocked at the speed at which crisis can happen. We all have a front row seat. At least we have an idea of what's coming. I feel sorry for the sheeple who believe the drivel the government puts out. They will be the first to get trampelled in a food line, waiting for that government cheese. I have grown tired of trying to convince people to prepare for what's coming. Most choose to shrug it off as some nut job with a cause. Oh well, at least this nut job will have some food and water, and won't have to stand in line for a handout. How about you???


Hear hear!!! You hit the nail RIGHT on the head with that! Well, the entire post, mostly (I DO still believe voting CAN make a difference! We're not THAT far gone, I pray) was right on the money!:2thumb::woohoo:


----------



## booter

*When is IT coming*

Hey! everybody! we've all heard of 'Tony Robbins' the famous motivational speaker & celebrity LOL! I don't care for the guy myself, but there are a lot of people out there who actually pay to listen to this guy.

He is on YouTube = 'Tony Robbins-an Economic Warning' I can trace his videos back to the 16th O' this August. He recounts these past 2years and tells you repeatedly 'I am not selling anything, I am only warning you what I know to be true' he breaks down the Govt. statistics into age demographics. Instead of our Govt. presenting the 'grading-on-the-curve numbers' to keep everyone in the dark, and not going into PANIC MODE. As far as I can tell 'he hangs with some very heavy hitters' so he just might have the inside track [maybe] about the current state of things.

Watch for yourselves, consider the source, & take it for what it's worth, then you be the judge....

PS; I forgot to add this, as you watch and listen to Tony Robbins you're waiting for his PITCH, because 'He is The Pitch Man' I was waiting; to hear about his latest seminar, for the title of his new book, what is his latest and greatest angle to succeed. NOTHING! NADA! ZILCH! DIDDLEYSQUAT! He gets introspective=tells you 'you should probably get out of the [stock] market' and then 'GOD BLESS you all & stay safe, Oh-and BTW things will get better someday, but look for conditions to get much worse, before things do get better'.

PSS; For those of you who are following the 2012-phenom, look up Saint Malachy [an Irish priest from the 11th century who had a 'revelation' made up of many brief visions about the Catholic Line of Papal succession]. He had it all recorded by a Vatican scribe, and all this time the Vatican has been sitting on this info [starting from his time, he retold of personal insights of every succeeding Pope, which only they would privately have as knowledge]. Saint Malachy's visions only go as far as the 112th Pope, after the end of the 112th Pope's term in office, this is the last of his visions as the world then ends in a cataclysm, the current Pope we have in 2010 now is the 111th Pope of Saint Malachy's visions!


----------



## UncleJoe

Here is a link to the Tony Robbins video. I saw it posted at a blog I read.


----------



## Meerkat

NaeKid said:


> I was talkin' with a buddy about this very subject this past weekend as we were moving him and his missus from his "in-town" acreage to his "out-of-town" acreage. He was telling me that he is building up a 1976 Blazer as his EMP-proof / anti-zombie / BOV.
> 
> We both figure that the the world as we know it will be done in 10 to 15 years and then it will be a "new-age" in humanity - if there is much humanity left after that point-in-time.


 Boss,I'd say 10 or 15 months is more like it. But I pray that I'm wrong .


----------



## Meerkat

sinbad said:


> OK Mike.
> My next question isn't for the sake of arguing, its aimed at finding a possible little candle at the end of the tunnel.
> 
> If so many people worked on fixing THAT problem , why don't same or other people try to fix THIS problem ? What's the difference here and there ?


 The people changed,thats the difference. We became tolerent of too much of the bad and intolerent of the good.
We allowed our nation to be overcome with non assimulating immigrants and deviants to educate our young.
All the while we stayed silent and complacent.


----------



## partdeux

Meerkat said:


> Boss,I'd say 10 or 15 months is more like it. But I pray that I'm wrong .


I'd give it a bit longer. I think bambam will throw enough money into the system to keep the status quo until the election. Whoever beats him in the next election is going to have a real problem on their hands. And, if in fact he is beaten, I would expect substantially increase racial tensions.


----------



## JayJay

Meerkat said:


> Boss,I'd say 10 or 15 months is more like it. But I pray that I'm wrong .


I agree with Meerkat--because the average family can not stretch that dollar any more than it's already stretched......even much higher food prices coming soon due to all anomalies, disasters; same for energy costs and gasoline??
Georgia Pacific closing in Georgia??
10 years is not realistic...I think those with employment see years; those with no jobs and low wages see it in months.


----------



## BillS

I think we have no more than two years. We might have less than 3 months. We have 3 huge disasters coming. 

Greece is going bankrupt. Italy, Ireland, Portugal, and Spain are following. It's thought that it will create a banking crisis 10 times bigger than the one in 2008. There's a good chance that the Federal Reserve will step in and print the trillions of dollars necessary to keep the world banking system solvent. That will create huge inflationary pressures on the dollar.

We're going to see hyperinflation in America like Germany saw in the 1920s. You can't print trillions of bogus dollars without eventually getting hyperinflation. Hyperinflation is a mathematical certainly. It's a question of WHEN and not IF.

Possibly the biggest coming disaster is the loss of the dollar as the world's reserve currency. It's estimated that 90% of the dollars in existence are held by countries who use them to trade with each other. The dollar index has gone from as high as 87 to as low as 73 in the last 18 months. Eventually our trading partners will get fed up with the declining value of the dollar and move to a basket of world currencies and/or gold. The day OPEC stops accepting dollars as payment for oil will be the biggest disaster in our history. We import about 70% of our oil. When OPEC pulls the plug we'll become a third world country in 30 days or less. 

I'm an Evangelical Christian. I believe that we're two years or less from the start of the Great Tribulation. I believe that the collapse of the US will create the conditions necessary for the formation of the one-world government described in Revelation. So much food is grown in America that when America collapses and can no longer export food to the world it's possible that a billion people will starve. 

I'm getting nervous about the situation in America. I want to get as much of my remaining prepping done as I can by the end of the month. Given that we're going to see a world banking crisis I've been considering pulling out some of my cash from the bank and keeping it at home.


----------



## Clarice

BillS, DH and I quit using banks a few years ago. I do not think our paper money is going to be worth anything when TSHTF, so we are investing in some PM. There may be a time right after the balloon goes up when some uninformed people will still take the paper money but not for long. I just read on the news that the EU banks are having trouble getting depositors. The people that do have money in their banks are withdrawing it at a rapid rate. Prepare for the worst and Pray for the best.


----------



## oldvet

You folks are all probably correct, but like I said in another post I am really trying not to stress over what is comming at us.

I am trying to put it on the back burner and concentrate on getting my prepping done and finishing our BOL. 

I finally figured out that there isn't a darn thing I or anyone else can do about our current situation in time to save a collapse, so short of a miracle I will just keep on getting ready and try to lower my stress factor. :gaah:


----------



## ZonaJeep

I hope it's something like just a simple breakdown of society or z-poc. Nuclear war scares the shit out of me.

That being said, I'd prefer if SHTF didn't happen for at least 10-15, I won't be as ready as I'd like until then.


----------



## UncleJoe

*Pulling up an old thread again. 

I came across this at market-ticker tonight. Interesting read.*

*Here is part of the article:*

Now let's ask the uncomfortable question: How much time does the United States Government and our society generally have left?

Let's figure it out as a process of elimination:

Can we pay eight times as much interest as we pay now? (Today it's ~$450 billion/year on federal debt, so this is $3.6 trillion dollars.) The obvious answer is no as the total federal revenues are somewhat over $2 trillion at the present time. This is the 12.5% "coverage point", so we cannot withstand three more "doublings."

Can we pay four times as much interest as we pay now? That's about $1.8 trillion, leaving about $400 billion for all programs ex-interest. To put this in perspective that would cover about half of the Defense Department and nothing else, meaning no Medicare, no Social Security, no Welfare in general, not even the guy to sweep the Capitol Building. That's the 25% coverage point, so we cannot withstand two more doublings.

Can we pay twice as much interest as we pay now? That's about $900 billion, leaving roughly $1.5 trillion for all programs ex-interest. To put this in perspective we could fund Defense and one of Social Security, Medicare, or the combined Medicaid/Welfare/etc social programs. We could not, however, fund more than one or pay for any other programs at all. That's the 50% coverage point, so we cannot withstand one more doubling.

Now how long do we have? That is, how much is a "doubling time"? That's easy too. We open up The Fed Z1 spreadsheet and Look at column Z1/Z1/LA314104005.Q, which is the Federal Government quarterly. Over the last decade that went from $3.284 trillion to $9.77 trillion, or 297%. This is roughly a 12% rate of increase annually.

The Rule of 72 tells us that this means that the debt at the government level, given what we're doing today, will double every six years. Don't believe me -- get out your calculator and check it.

This means that Paul Ryan's plan is a public fraud as it is mathematically impossible for the republic to survive long enough for his "40 years" to pass, as just one example of many. You are challenged to run any of the so-called "Tea Party" or "Fiscal Conservative" plans against this metric: Six years to a full stop in deficits or we're all dead and see if you can make your plan work recognizing that no Congress can bind the next one and there are elections every two years for the House.

Want to run the game for all debt? That works too. All Debt was about $27 trillion 10 years ago. Today it is $52.7 trillion. That's 195% of the starting value (and note it understates things slightly as "social security and medicare" are not counted as debts because legally they are not.) This is roughly a seven percent annual growth rate. The Rule of 72 tells us that this means it will double in approximately every ten years, and we won't survive in the private economy paying twice as much interest as we pay today either.

So take your pick: We stop this or we economically die in less than six years or less than ten years. In no case can we continue to add to the debt at a rate that exceeds economic growth. That was a Ponzi scheme, it is a Ponzi scheme, and we are now in the last doubling time available to us before the surface of the pond is entirely consumed by lilies and we all suffocate. If we continue to add to the debt at a rate that exceeds the change in GDP, either systemically or at the government (or both) we may extend the time before we are all screwed but the government and/or our economic and monetary system will fail with mathematical certainty.

Got it yet folks? This is the debate at hand -- the only debate. Everything else is bull**** because if we do not stop this absolutely no other debate you wish to have matters.

We stop this, and we stop it right now, or we suffer a political and/or economic system failure in this country. Some people call this "a sudden stop." I call it "this is going to really suck" and you will too. All of the left/right, government is bad:government is good, "more taxes", "less spending that's not really less as it's baselined", etc - it's all crap.

This is not conjecture, it is not opinion, it is not subject to a debate over left, right, liberal, conservative, libertarian, marxism, socialism, occupying wall street or anything else. It is controlled by the immutable laws of mathematics which no person can change with votes, political parties, executive orders or even guns...

...If we do not address the underlying facts then none of these issues make any difference at all. We will be arguing over what form of government follows what we have today, and we will probably be making those arguments in a very impolite manner.

This is the danger we face as a nation, it is a clear and present danger, and unless we act the outcome is as certain as it is that the Sun will rise in the east tomorrow.

*The rest of the article can be read at the link above.*


----------



## partdeux

It's the old rule of exponentials... except for two (three really) biggie problems

we are running out of raw materials, things, and people to keep the exponentials going
If we had managed to keep it going, involving the whole world in our little game didn't expand it, but is actually collapsing it
third one's a bit tougher, the whole banking financial game is hitting a brick wall.


----------



## Jergro

The best thing I'm prepared for is a zombie apocalypse. I have a few months food and water, some seeds for the next spring and a few hunting rifles. (zombie protection and hunting) We have to keep everything locked up and apart here in Canada but thats ok. It's cold up here and I suspect the snow will slow down any walking dead, giving me a chance to un-lock, un-lock, then lock and load.


----------



## BillS

I think we have a lot less time than most people think. The government spends so much money that there aren't enough dollars in existence to borrow. What the government can't borrow the Federal Reserve creates. The Fed started monetizing the debt in March, 2009. It's only a matter of time before we have inflation like Germany had in the 1920s. Hyperinflation starts slowly but then increases rapidly. A year from now a loaf of bread could cost $100 or $1,000 or $10,000.

At some point the world will stop using the dollar as the world's reserve currency. It's estimated that 90% of the dollars in existence are held by countries as a way to buy things from each other. OPEC sells oil for dollars only. The day OPEC no longer accepts the dollar our economy will crash. The rest of the world will dump their dollars on the market. Prices in America might increase 10 fold in a very short time.

The thing closest on the horizon is the European sovereign debt crisis. Greece is on the verge of default. Portugal, Italy, Ireland, and Spain are not too far behind. When Greece defaults we'll see banks fail around the world. It's thought that this next crisis will be 10 times bigger than the one in 2008. Will the Federal Reserve print as much money as necessary to stabilize the world's banking system? Even if it takes $10 trillion, $50 trillion, or $150 trillion? Is it possible that this crisis will destroy the dollar virtually over night? Is it possible that government and the media have been UNDERSTATING the seriousness of the crisis? There's a good chance that the world will be well on the way to complete collapse by the end of the year, if not by Thanksgiving (November 24th).


----------



## partdeux

BillS said:


> I OPEC sells oil for dollars only. The day OPEC no longer accepts the dollar our economy will crash.
> 
> Will the Federal Reserve print as much money as necessary to stabilize the world's banking system? Even if it takes $10 trillion, $50 trillion, or $150 trillion? Is it possible that this crisis will destroy the dollar virtually over night? Is it possible that government and the media have been UNDERSTATING the seriousness of the crisis? There's a good chance that the world will be well on the way to complete collapse by the end of the year, if not by Thanksgiving (November 24th).


There was an internet rumor, so it must be true, that Gaddafi was threatening to use gold as the standard to sell oil.

I don't see the economy collapsing before the next election. I also see this as an opportunity to create one world wide money standard. For some of my more seasoned friends here, you'll remember back in the 80's the discussion about New World Order and the trilateral commission. At the time I thought it was a bunch of hooey. I'm not so sure anymore, especially after reading the overton window.

These are definitely interesting times we are in, and the ride is about to get wild.


----------



## Immolatus

While I agree with the overall concept, I have my issues with his response as well.

The numbers are all BS. The 'money' is not real. Its is leveraged to the hilt, the numbers are accounting tricks anyway.
Stock prices are bs also. HFT has removed price discovery from supply/demand equation in stocks. See this article at ZH.
I have heard from multiple sources that 70% of the trading overall is done this way, all by computer programs.

My own question as to how HFT affects the overall market:
How does it actually affect the market overall? If you remove 70% of all stock trades (this in itself means nothing without hard data on an individual stock, in theory this could all be in a handful of stocks, like the volume leaders because if you were the prgrammer/firm why not concentrate your efforts on one or only a few stocks, but lets take it at face value) what does that mean for the market overall? How does that affect the long term upward trend of the 'market', ie, the Dow or S&P? Thats way above my pay grade. If its all just a game played by computers, what does that mean? If humans removed themselves completely from the process (you, me, Warren Buffet, and yes I just equated us with Buffet) does the system crash? Or does it just become a meaningless paper game played by trading firms with heavy hardware? A Ponzi scheme? Or are the 'human' trades (we put in a bid on XYZ @ $100) already so small a proportion of the total as to be meaningless already? Or are we just being gamed, and are just the medium for the spores (I thought this was a great metaphor, but I dont actually know if its accurate, do these programs need a trade to base themselves on, or is it all self contained?) to grow on?

What would all that mean to the average Joe investor? Is the assumption of 7% annual growth in the S&P still valid?

Back to the issues of debt overall, havent people been screaming their heads off over all of this since the beginning of the US debt? Havent there always been chicken littles (like us) screaming the sky is falling? I would assume you couldve made these arguments every year since the early 1900's, no? What makes now any different? What have 'they' been doing all this time to keep things proped up? Keep everyone inthe dark? Keep printing money? Bread and circuses? Nationalism/patriotism? Us vs Them, whoever us and them are?


----------



## Padre

*No one knows the hour*

It depends what senario you are thinking about:

TEOTWAWKI level Natural disaster: 1 sec - 100 yrs 
Nuke/EMP/Bio/Chem attack: 1 sec -100 yrs

Terrorist attack: 1 second - 100yrs
Financial Meltdown due to crisis crunch: 1 wk - 7 yrs
Actual US Gov debt crunch: 3 - 7 yrs
Civil war: 3 - 15 yrs

You can't predict it, you can't totally prepare for it, you have to make reasonable preparations and then then just keep your eyes open, your guns locked and loaded, and trust in God.


----------



## BillM

*Loyds of London*

Loyds of London has withdrawn all their money from Europeian banks !

They have made money by predicting acceptable risks for over 300 years.


----------



## NaeKid

Meerkat said:


> Boss,I'd say 10 or 15 months is more like it. But I pray that I'm wrong .


Umm ... if you check the date-stamp on my message that you quoted, it was from about 17 months ago, and, we are still here. I still stand by my guess of years, not months. People will do what they can to survive, even if it means working within the system to survive. Things are still sliding downhill, weather patterns are going nuts, people are getting weirder (is that even a word? :scratch ) ... but we are still going. I am doing what I can daily expecting something to happen tomorrow, but, hoping that I still have years to get things in order.


----------



## oldvet

NaeKid said:


> Umm ... if you check the date-stamp on my message that you quoted, it was from about 17 months ago, and, we are still here. I still stand by my guess of years, not months. People will do what they can to survive, even if it means working within the system to survive. Things are still sliding downhill, weather patterns are going nuts, people are getting weirder (is that even a word? :scratch ) ... but we are still going. I am doing what I can daily expecting something to happen tomorrow, but, hoping that I still have years to get things in order.


I sure do hope you are right. :crossfinger:


----------



## HozayBuck

*What it all comes down to is just the same issues our great great great Grand Parents faced every day, is the garden big enough? do we have enough canning jars, can we make the root cellar bigger, is the roof gonna last thru another winter or should we fix it now, do we have enough feed for the live stock, enough fire wood? Possible Indian raids ?

Their worries had nothing to do with gas for the car, is the power gonna stay on so the kids can be entertained? will my daughters Ipod work or will I have to listen to her world end?...

So if we plan for a complete shut down what are our worries? heat, shelter, food , security , bigger garden , ability to preserve our extra food...

Not much differences ... I guess the Indian raids are pretty well over but the MZB's are an issue .

Some will adapt , some will just die , some will rob and kill until they find themselves just hanging around...as tree decorations ... or garden mulch..

We may be walking where we wanna go but we won't be going far.. So what if I can't drive my big ass diesel truck?...

Mankind planted food with nothing but a sharp stick to make a hole and dropped in a seed, can we not do the same?

I guess I'm just saying it may be TEOTWAWKI but it won"t be TEOTW.. We will adapt , and move on.. it may be what saves Mother Earth which will save us too... Earth dies..we die..simple..

So, I need to stock some seeds and some sharp sticks and some rocks to throw at the saber Toothed Tiger.. *


----------



## oldvet

HozayBuck said:


> *What it all comes down to is just the same issues our great great great Grand Parents faced every day, is the garden big enough? do we have enough canning jars, can we make the root cellar bigger, is the roof gonna last thru another winter or should we fix it now, do we have enough feed for the live stock, enough fire wood? Possible Indian raids ?
> 
> Their worries had nothing to do with gas for the car, is the power gonna stay on so the kids can be entertained? will my daughters Ipod work or will I have to listen to her world end?...
> 
> So if we plan for a complete shut down what are our worries? heat, shelter, food , security , bigger garden , ability to preserve our extra food...
> 
> Not much differences ... I guess the Indian raids are pretty well over but the MZB's are an issue .
> 
> Some will adapt , some will just die , some will rob and kill until they find themselves just hanging around...as tree decorations ... or garden mulch..
> 
> We may be walking where we wanna go but we won't be going far.. So what if I can't drive my big ass diesel truck?...
> 
> Mankind planted food with nothing but a sharp stick to make a hole and dropped in a seed, can we not do the same?
> 
> I guess I'm just saying it may be TEOTWAWKI but it won"t be TEOTW.. We will adapt , and move on.. it may be what saves Mother Earth which will save us too... Earth dies..we die..simple..
> 
> So, I need to stock some seeds and some sharp sticks and some rocks to throw at the saber Toothed Tiger.. *


Hozay, Yep we have definately grown to love our comforts like A/c, Tv, cell phones, and on and on, but you are absolutely correct. Given the will and proper mind set, yes you can survive without all of the comforts and entertainments that we have become addicted to.

My wife and I were talking about possibly having to face the 100+ heat of Texas summers. It would be tough trying to adapt to it but we can and would if we are put in that situation.

I agree with you that if you have the will, ability, some simple tools, seed, water, and a little common sense and know how, then yes you can survive.


----------



## Possumfam

My grandmother-in-law (died at the age of 92) didn't believe in A/C, no matter that she lived in Southern Mississippi w/ terribly high humidity and temps. She'd fry chicken and bake a cake in the middle of the afternoon in August! That being said, I know from personal experience that you learn very quickly how to live w/o certain comforts. When someone turned on a fan, she'd quietly walk by and turn it off. Didn't believe in wasting electricity. Wish I could've learned more from her.


----------



## lotsoflead

Possumfam said:


> My grandmother-in-law (died at the age of 92) didn't believe in A/C, no matter that she lived in Southern Mississippi w/ terribly high humidity and temps. She'd fry chicken and bake a cake in the middle of the afternoon in August! That being said, I know from personal experience that you learn very quickly how to live w/o certain comforts. When someone turned on a fan, she'd quietly walk by and turn it off. Didn't believe in wasting electricity. Wish I could've learned more from her.


at 92, people still want the heat turned on if it's under 80


----------



## Magus

neil-v1 said:


> I know nobody knows for sure but I was wondering what peoples opinions are to how much quality time we have left to prepare before the wheels really come off? Any opinions?


None.it's on now!


----------



## sgtsurvival

HozayBuck said:


> A financial collapse has the potential to drop the entire world to it's knees then we humans will finish the job with riots and war between ourselves fighting for scraps.. and it could happen over night.


I truly think that this senario is closer than we all may want to realize.

Although I believe that it is possible to be worse here for us in the US more than we can ever imagine.

The US dollar has the probability to lose its status as the global reserve currency within the next 1 to 5 years. Other countries are currently talking of replacing the US dollar with a portfolio of currencies based on the globalized economy.

In the US it would cause a 'double-dip' recession that will lead to a severe depression, food and fuel shortages, extended power outages, and a total economic collapse of our deflated US Dollar.

My latest concerns are over the US governments inability to rein in spending and the Federal Reserves huge expansion of its balance sheet.

If this takes place, we will see all of the sheeple rioting, stealing and murdering others in the streets.


----------



## Dove150

Unless we get nuked or are thrust into a World war the economy will continue to be the problem. Some families will be able to keep holding on and some will not. 

It's like a frog in a slow boiling pot. Less money and higher prices will keep us all tightening up the budget until one by one we strangle.

Hopefully, a new regime in Washington DC will start turning this country around. I sure would like to see some of the people who got us here go to jail, but I doubt that will happen. I should be floating comfortably into retirement, but any chance of that happening has been wiped out. But by the grace of God I go.


----------



## partdeux

sgtsurvival said:


> The US dollar has the probability to lose its status as the global reserve currency within the next 1 to 5 years. Other countries are currently talking of replacing the US dollar with a portfolio of currencies based on the globalized economy.


I don't see the US Dollar as losing it's reserve currency to any other currency... except maybe a truly global currency.


----------



## Saiga12_489

neil-v1 said:


> I know nobody knows for sure but I was wondering what peoples opinions are to how much quality time we have left to prepare before the wheels really come off? Any opinions?


neil-v1 you pose a very excellent question.

If things don't change quickly economically in Europe and here in the USA, I believe we have maybe two years tops before total economic collapse world wide. If Iran develops a nuclear device, no telling what that may do to world economics, let alone the poor soles they [Iran] unleash that device on.

Below are two quotes I recommend to help motivate you as it does for me.

"No one knows when that day or hour will come-not the angels in heaven, not the Son, but only the Father. Be careful! Watch out! Because you don't know when the time will come. -- Mark 13:22 & 13:23

"By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail." -- Benjamin Franklin

Take care neil-v1 and all the best to you and yours!


----------



## VUnder

When no man knoweth the day or hour, this is a very specific time, an exact day, an exact hour.


----------



## VUnder

partdeux said:


> I don't see the US Dollar as losing it's reserve currency to any other currency... except maybe a truly global currency.


the Saudis are already talking of using the Yuan and the Yen as the new currency to use for oil. The fact that the Saudis use the US dollar is the only thing keeping it as the world reserve currency.


----------



## partdeux

VUnder said:


> the Saudis are already talking of using the Yuan and the Yen as the new currency to use for oil. The fact that the Saudis use the US dollar is the only thing keeping it as the world reserve currency.


I forget the exact number, but something like 75% of all the world trade flows through the US dollar. Maybe it was 70% with Euro being another 20%.

If the US dollar stops being the reserve currency, China economy would instantly be in trouble, because US consumers would no longer be able to afford free floating Yuan. Yen has been in trouble for decades, and their nuclear problem is only just beginning to hit them.


----------



## Meerkat

Its already fallen apart we'r just in denial.


----------



## BlueShoe

Saiga12_489 said:


> neil-v1 you pose a very excellent question.
> 
> If things don't change quickly economically in Europe and here in the USA, I believe we have maybe two years tops before total economic collapse world wide. If Iran develops a nuclear device, no telling what that may do to world economics, let alone the poor soles they [Iran] unleash that device on.
> 
> Below are two quotes I recommend to help motivate you as it does for me.
> 
> "No one knows when that day or hour will come-not the angels in heaven, not the Son, but only the Father. Be careful! Watch out! Because you don't know when the time will come. -- Mark 13:22 & 13:23
> 
> "By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail." -- Benjamin Franklin
> 
> Take care neil-v1 and all the best to you and yours!


I don't mean to pick, but Iran hasn't invaded any foreign countries. The same can't be said for the USA and several of our allies. Rest assured that if Iran develops a nuke weapon, it will be detonated inside of Iran by a preemptive destruction from an outside nation.

World economics have already failed and it was done from within. When the time comes that we all are shown that it can no longer be propped up, we'll realize that the signs of failure were so easy to see in hindsight, we'll kick ourselves for missing them. That's because the media and government will both be telling us that we have to tighten this or that to get thru the tough times. In the end it will fail and we'll have been bled dry in the process, but the new currency and political system will be offered as the only alternative. And we'll probably go along with it, for a while anyway.

It's my opinion that the coming hard times are not the End Times, it's just the end of the fiat money. And they already have another plan or two for the next currency. As far as the world, it's just a repeat of what has always happened over and over and over. All through history the powerful nations strive to rule all of the world. We shouldn't expect this to be different.


----------



## The_Exorcist

I give it 1-16 months before it all goes south.
and hey, if it does not come as a surprise, it won't come at all.


----------



## lefty

IMO The wheels have come off; the car has just not run into the ditch yet. The real unemployment in the US is greater than it ever has been, you get Vertigo looking at the debt clock, society has become immoral and lost all sense of personal responsibility. The vast majority of the population is in debt up to their eyeballs. Our President believes the Constitution is a "flawed document", half the country does not pay taxes but want to increase taxes on the other half. You can burn the flag but not pray in school. The big ups in themarket are beng driven by day trading and timing the markets, not real economic growth. Oh yeah the wheels are off.


----------



## Jaspar

Just a question, because I really have no idea. What eventually happens to the nuke plants if the power grid goes out for an extended period of time (years)


----------



## partdeux

Jaspar said:


> Just a question, because I really have no idea. What eventually happens to the nuke plants if the power grid goes out for an extended period of time (years)


I've read a few things about Japans disaster, and it appears a planned shut down is containable for centuries. An unplanned loss of coolant could potentially burn right through the containment aka china syndrome. In my uneducated opinion, I don't believe the Japanese situation is contained or under control, which raises the question, how long and how widespread will the radioactivity go?


----------



## Davarm

tenOC said:


> I don't mean to pick, but Iran hasn't invaded any foreign countries. The same can't be said for the USA and several of our allies. Rest assured that if Iran develops a nuke weapon, it will be detonated inside of Iran by a preemptive destruction from an outside nation.
> 
> World economics have already failed and it was done from within. When the time comes that we all are shown that it can no longer be propped up, we'll realize that the signs of failure were so easy to see in hindsight, we'll kick ourselves for missing them. That's because the media and government will both be telling us that we have to tighten this or that to get thru the tough times. In the end it will fail and we'll have been bled dry in the process, but the new currency and political system will be offered as the only alternative. And we'll probably go along with it, for a while anyway.
> 
> It's my opinion that the coming hard times are not the End Times, it's just the end of the fiat money. And they already have another plan or two for the next currency. As far as the world, it's just a repeat of what has always happened over and over and over. All through history the powerful nations strive to rule all of the world. We shouldn't expect this to be different.


Better a nuke detonated inside Iran than outside any day.


----------



## LincTex

neil-v1 said:


> I know nobody knows for sure but I was wondering what peoples opinions are to how much quality time we have left to prepare before the wheels really come off? Any opinions?


As long as you can still get groceries, you still have time.

When you start seeing empty store shelves more frequently, that's when it hits the fan.

Sure, whenever a big storm rolls in, every one runs to the store, stocks up and the store shelves empty temporarily, but a few days after the storm the shelves will be stocked again (in normal times).

It's when the shelves are not getting restocked that people will start to panic. It could become reality due to it costing too much for the store to order from its supplier, or fuel costs too much to run the delivery trucks, but no matter how tough things get, people won't panic until they can't eat anymore.


----------



## lotsoflead

everything will be going smooth til the truckers can not buy fuel anymore, when oil goes to 150 per barrel probably after the next election, then things could get scarey, prices sky rocketing, store shelves half empty, gas stations closed, home heating oil rationed ect.


----------



## lotsoflead

tenOC said:


> I don't mean to pick, but Iran hasn't invaded any foreign countries. The same can't be said for the USA and several of our allies. Rest assured that if Iran develops a nuke weapon, it will be detonated inside of Iran by a preemptive destruction from an outside nation.
> 
> World economics have already failed and it was done from within. When the time comes that we all are shown that it can no longer be propped up, we'll realize that the signs of failure were so easy to see in hindsight, we'll kick ourselves for missing them. That's because the media and government will both be telling us that we have to tighten this or that to get thru the tough times. In the end it will fail and we'll have been bled dry in the process, but the new currency and political system will be offered as the only alternative. And we'll probably go along with it, for a while anyway.
> 
> It's my opinion that the coming hard times are not the End Times, it's just the end of the fiat money. And they already have another plan or two for the next currency. As far as the world, it's just a repeat of what has always happened over and over and over. All through history the powerful nations strive to rule all of the world. We shouldn't expect this to be different.


 Iran and everyone over there just wants us to get to hell out of the middle east and mind our own business, that's not asking too much, but we're trying to get another war started before we finish the last ones. Ron Paul 2012.


----------



## BillS

I don't know if the collapse will be long and drawn out or if it will be something that happens quickly. The Fed has been printing or creating trillions of bogus dollars. Eventually that has to affect the value of the dollar and the willingness of other countries to accept it as a reserve currency.

Right now the big thing is what's happening in Europe. Eventually the first country in the EU will default and others will fall like dominoes. That will cause the banking system to collapse in Europe and most likely in the US too. That will set off credit default swaps and derivatives with values in the trillions. I expect the US fallout from an EU collapse to be much worse than expected. I think it could cause us to go from a normal life to a collapse in as little as a few weeks.


----------



## Immolatus

BillS said:


> I don't know if the collapse will be long and drawn out or if it will be something that happens quickly. The Fed has been printing or creating trillions of bogus dollars. Eventually that has to affect the value of the dollar and the willingness of other countries to accept it as a reserve currency.
> 
> Right now the big thing is what's happening in Europe. Eventually the first country in the EU will default and others will fall like dominoes. That will cause the banking system to collapse in Europe and most likely in the US too. That will set off credit default swaps and derivatives with values in the trillions. I expect the US fallout from an EU collapse to be much worse than expected. I think it could cause us to go from a normal life to a collapse in as little as a few weeks.


Ya know, I wonder about all of those cds's also.
This was a good read. My question is, that from what I heard when they were discussing the 50% greek bond haircut everyone I heard said that the CDS's were not going to payoff. I didnt hear the rationalization, but I figure if your S gets cut in half, and the CDS still doesnt pay off, then what value does it have at all? If the payoff triggers can be manipulated like that, then the banks are just suckering customers that are buying them, knowing they are worthless. Is this correct?


----------



## SageAdvicefarmgirl

LincTex said:


> *As long as you can still get groceries, you still have time.*
> When you start seeing empty store shelves more frequently, that's when it hits the fan.
> 
> Sure, whenever a big storm rolls in, every one runs to the store, stocks up and the store shelves empty temporarily, but a few days after the storm the shelves will be stocked again (in normal times).
> 
> It's when the shelves are not getting restocked that people will start to panic. It could become reality due to it costing too much for the store to order from its supplier, or fuel costs too much to run the delivery trucks, but no matter how tough things get, people won't panic until they can't eat anymore.


I thought this was a really good post...makes great sense. Sure, things are already bad and will continually get worse, but we all keep tightening our belts and keep doing what we can. When groc can't be had, tho, as LincTex says, panic starts! Hopefully we will spend our time and energy to get the best prepared we can between now and then.

I had a thought that on the day I see panic  at the groc store, when I've come to buy and no food is left, it'd be a good idea to go ahead and buy up all the non-food items I can afford, such as meds, soap, canning lids, anything that is LEFT that "food buyers" are skipping over. I guess that's kind of my "final parting purchase" if you will...The panic buyers will get food, but I'll buy all I can of other necessities, b'cuz I have already stocked up on food. So I won't waste the trip on that "Day to end all Days".

I also like the idea of calmly filling my shopping cart with non-food items when everyone else is getting crazed over what they CAN'T BUY! So if I see anyone else doing the same in the store, I'll just smile at ya, knowing its someone from Prepared Society!:kiss:

Final note: I can't rave enough about the book Rebuilding A Village It starts out with the Prologue: The Day to End All Days, and helps you to get a handle on what comes next...I am giving copies of the book to friends and family and church members for Christmas...


----------



## Meerkat

SageAdvicefarmgirl said:


> I thought this was a really good post...makes great sense. Sure, things are already bad and will continually get worse, but we all keep tightening our belts and keep doing what we can. When groc can't be had, tho, as LincTex says, panic starts! Hopefully we will spend our time and energy to get the best prepared we can between now and then.
> 
> I had a thought that on the day I see panic  at the groc store, when I've come to buy and no food is left, it'd be a good idea to go ahead and buy up all the non-food items I can afford, such as meds, soap, canning lids, anything that is LEFT that "food buyers" are skipping over. I guess that's kind of my "final parting purchase" if you will...The panic buyers will get food, but I'll buy all I can of other necessities, b'cuz I have already stocked up on food. So I won't waste the trip on that "Day to end all Days".
> 
> I also like the idea of calmly filling my shopping cart with non-food items when everyone else is getting crazed over what they CAN'T BUY! So if I see anyone else doing the same in the store, I'll just smile at ya, knowing its someone from Prepared Society!:kiss:
> 
> Final note: I can't rave enough about the book Rebuilding A Village It starts out with the Prologue: The Day to End All Days, and helps you to get a handle on what comes next...I am giving copies of the book to friends and family and church members for Christmas...


 Lets just hope its not full of village idiots.I'll see if the library has it .


----------



## gypsysue

Meerkat said:


> Lets just hope its not full of village idiots.


 I like that! Great quip! 

...and definitely something to think about!


----------



## VUnder

Jaspar said:


> Just a question, because I really have no idea. What eventually happens to the nuke plants if the power grid goes out for an extended period of time (years)


They have generator power to run things long enough to shut down properly. But, if there is a devastating solar flare, earthquake, yellowstone eruption, I don't know about that. And, we are just supposing that the generators will even crank. I know how a lot of the time, those things just get looked at and not checked like they should be.


----------



## BillS

Immolatus said:


> Ya know, I wonder about all of those cds's also.
> This was a good read. My question is, that from what I heard when they were discussing the 50% greek bond haircut everyone I heard said that the CDS's were not going to payoff. I didnt hear the rationalization, but I figure if your S gets cut in half, and the CDS still doesnt pay off, then what value does it have at all? If the payoff triggers can be manipulated like that, then the banks are just suckering customers that are buying them, knowing they are worthless. Is this correct?


I'm thinking that the CDS won't pay off in the event of a 50% default because it's banks that sold the CDS's in the first place. It's also possible that the European Central Bank will secretly pay back the banks that lose money on a Greek default but the average investor won't be made whole. But you're right, the CDS have no value if they don't have to pay off in the event of a 50% default.


----------



## jungatheart

Immolatus said:


> Ya know, I wonder about all of those cds's also.
> This was a good read. My question is, that from what I heard when they were discussing the 50% greek bond haircut everyone I heard said that the CDS's were not going to payoff. I didnt hear the rationalization, but I figure if your S gets cut in half, and the CDS still doesnt pay off, then what value does it have at all? If the payoff triggers can be manipulated like that, then the banks are just suckering customers that are buying them, knowing they are worthless. Is this correct?


Without the rule of law, we are at the mercy of anyone who has more power than we do and, don't look now, but we no longer have the rule of law.


----------



## Waterboy

neil-v1 said:


> I know nobody knows for sure but I was wondering what peoples opinions are to how much quality time we have left to prepare before the wheels really come off? Any opinions?


Not soon enough for us!


----------



## Davarm

Dont know how most of you view Ron Paul but he is on the "Martial Law" bandwagon and "Infowars.com" just posted another of his warnings about the stage being set for martial law to be declared.

» Presidential Frontrunner Warns Martial Law Being Established in America Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

It may not be much much longer until it is public knowledge that Martial Law is a real possibility.


----------



## lotsoflead

Davarm said:


> Dont know how most of you view Ron Paul but he is on the "Martial Law" bandwagon and "Infowars.com" just posted another of his warnings about the stage being set for martial law to be declared.
> 
> » Presidential Frontrunner Warns Martial Law Being Established in America Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!
> 
> It may not be much much longer until it is public knowledge that Martial Law is a real possibility.


here's a great site for anyone who likes RP.. Ron Paul 2012 | Peace . Gold . Liberty | Daily Paul


----------



## partdeux

Davarm said:


> It may not be much much longer until it is public knowledge that Martial Law is a real possibility.


General public, who are being lead by LSM have no idea. It's the old addage of putting a frog into a pot of water and slowly turning up the temperature. The frog never knows he's being cooked.

I've said it before, The Overton Window should be mandatory reading as it explains how this slow heat has been slowly turned up.


----------



## partdeux

Great write up by Chris Martenson with graphs



> There are clear signs of a liquidity crunch in the asset markets right now, and the question I keep hearing is, Is this 2008 all over again?
> 
> No, it's worse. Much worse.
> 
> One of the most important things we need to track is simply untrackable, and that is market perception. When faith in a faith-based money system vanishes, the game is pretty much over.
> 
> *source*


----------



## partdeux

This is a really long read, but IMO very valuable... According to the author, we are close to the end.



> Our political leaders, our business leaders, and our cultural leaders have made a series of catastrophic choices. The result has been a long decline in America's standard of living.
> 
> *source*


----------



## Londoner

The answers to most of the economic problems are very easy and are no different for a Nation than they are for an individual. Spend less than you earn. Now see if you can get 51% of the people to vote for that piece of wisdom.

America's problems started some time around 1960 when the first Japanese transistor radio was imported. On that day a foreign country was "out-teching" the home industries. Goods started flowing in faster and faster and the rest you know.

Britain and Europe were exactly the same. Close the factory that was feeding a whole town and buy in the stuff from China, Japan, Korea etc. To blazes with the workers and their families, who cares about them? just look at the bottom line.

Now all the factories have gone and everybody is acting suprised because there is no money.


----------



## Kryptons

no more then 10 years


----------



## BillM

On Jan 1st we fall off the fisical cliff.

The president says only the top 2 % will pay extra taxes but the reality is that people making 25,000 and $35,000 will pay betweem $2500 and $ 3500 in taxes.

these are folks that always got a refund or tax credit in the past.


----------



## cnsper

jungatheart said:


> Without the rule of law, we are at the mercy of anyone who has more power than we do and, don't look now, but we no longer have the rule of law.


They only have power if you give them the power to lord over you.


----------



## machinist

Raoul Pal writes an investment newsletter that is subscribed by some major money people. I give this guy some serious creds, and he is saying "2012 and 2013 will usher in the end". I take that to mean that we don't have a lot of time. But he does put the US as one of the last to fall. He does NOT, however, indicate how long it would take to go from the collapse of one nation to another.

Quote from 
http://www.scribd.com/doc/95493792/The-End-Game

"From an EU crisis, we only have to join one dot for a UK crisis of equal magnitude.

And then do you think Japan and China would not be next? And then do you think the US would survive unscathed?

That is the end of the fractional reserveThat is the end of the fractional reserve banking system and of fiat money. It is the big RESET.

From a timing perspective, I think 2012 and 2013 will usher in the end. You have to understand that a global banking collapse and massive defaults would bring about the biggest economic shock the world has ever seen."
____________

Based on what he says, I wouldn't be foot-dragging at this time, but get your act together as best you can, posthaste.


----------



## Onebigelf

I think our likely and most immediate risk at this point is armed revolution.

John


----------



## Onebigelf

BillM said:


> On Jan 1st we fall off the fisical cliff.
> 
> The president says only the top 2 % will pay extra taxes but the reality is that people making 25,000 and $35,000 will pay betweem $2500 and $ 3500 in taxes.
> 
> these are folks that always got a refund or tax credit in the past.


His "2%" is anyone making more than $70,000.










John


----------



## machinist

Yeah, $70K. And before he is out of office, I'd expect inflation to make that 70 grand/year about minimum wage rate.


----------



## cqp33

That $70,000 Mark was a little off! I believe after this Jan (2013) anyone earning a paycheck has seen a tax hike due to previous tax breaks expiring! At least I lost about $180 out of each month of pay for me!


----------



## FrankW

in answer to the original question:

Barring a major unforseen event such as an epidemic or major war that could choke off our oil ,.. it could be decades.

Even tough we are on an unsustainable course that virtually guarantees a catastrophe there is so much value in this country in pre existing resources of infrastructure, unused housing etc that we have a lot of built -in resiliency that will dampen the trend.

Kinda like a buffer in chemistry, you add the acid and everyone knows the solution will become very acidic, but the buffer acts as a floodgate to keep the ph from dropping for a while time.

The equivalent in our society is that we are basically living off our substance. 
That's our buffer the built-in preexisting substance of this country which is masking the trend.

It may be 20 or 30 rears until the flood gates burst.

Think of Germany in WW2.
Defeat was inevitable pretty much ever since late 1942 but it would take years to show, despite the fast pace of a world war...,... most people didn't realize the looming catastrophe that would starve them and send off millions as slave labor to the Gulags. ...there was _almost_ normalcy in most parts inside Germany right up until about January/February 1945.

The normalcy bias at work.

Even in East Prussia, soon to be the scene of some of the most medieval mass atrocities of the war,.. seemed calm for a bit after the last successful counterattacks in February 45.

Again its human nature, the normalcy bias at work.


----------



## cqp33

Good points BlueZ in regard to WWII! I have always said 2-10 years for the full scope of the financial crisis and what I see going on today is that no one on earth won't feel it so it most likely would be a "great reset" for all! The only question after that is what money system would be used, A one world monetary system? That wouldn't last very long because it would have to be a one world Government in order for it to work and that would be the start to another World War. 
We are living in interesting times for sure, I just say to everyone be prepared, as prepared as you can! Move towards self sufficiency, every step you take is one step closer to preparedness and will cause you less pain when/if any of the scenarios we talk about on here ever happen! Not only that self sufficiency living is cheaper on the pocket book too!


----------



## FrankW

I am a little worried that debt based bandaids will be used to push out the day of reckoning as long as possible.. This is to ensure the existing policians can serve out their careers in perceived normalcy so the next generation of politicians will be blamed when the wheels come off.

Part of me would like it to happen sooner since this country will then have more built in resiliency to recover.

I rather have it happen in 2 years than 20- years for that reason.

but i am also a realist so I know our "leadership" will continue sacrificing our substance for as long as possible to postpone the inevitable and worsen it in the process, just so they are not in charge when it does happen.

but it <could> happen sooner if an event pushes the system over the edge.

On that note I just bought some Silver.. unlike many other preps it's not really "spending money on preps" its merely converting money into a different form.
So its way of prepping in my mind w/o really spending anything.


----------



## partdeux

I'm worried about the savings account confiscation in Europe. Remember, I've always said the collapse will be a black swan event, this would definitely qualify.


----------



## BillS

I've been convinced for the last 18 months that the collapse was just around the corner. I'm surprised that the collapse hasn't happened by now. I think one thing that's keeping things going is the slowing US economy. More dollars are created all the time but the velocity of money keeps slowing down. Eventually we'll reach a point when things start to happen quickly. 

I still believe that I got a vision from God about the timing of the collapse. I'd been praying for at least six months that I'd have a dream or vision about the time of year that the collapse would take place. One night around May 1st of last year I went to bed, closed my eyes, and this is what came into my mind:

I'm standing outside one of my favorite restaurants. It's been closed for some time. I'm looking at the outside window. It's dusty and it has streaks where rain drops have run through the dust. There are autumn leaves swirling in the parking lot. 

The restaurant is still in business today but a Denny's has opened nearby and a Dunkin Donuts is being built across the street. I could see it closing tomorrow, next week, or next year. I'm going to prepare like the collapse could happen at any time but I think it will happen this fall.


----------



## DCcam87

I honestly don't think that we will have a nuclear SHTF situation. Yes North Korea is a risk, Iran is starting to become a risk. Iran I personally don't see using nukes on the U.S. . North Korea new leader is crazy, he is making the threats but I don't know if he will do it. North Korea and Iran both understand that for every one nuke they launch at us, the U.S. will have 12 going up there a$$. I think there will be a war between the U.S. and North Korea and our country will collapse financially due to funding of that war. It will turn to chaos in our country, it won't be a civil war, it will be war between everyone. Everyone on different sides trying to defend themselves and what they have and own.


----------



## machinist

*Slow Motion Train Wreck*

That's how I see this happening, and it is already well begun. We hear the crashing of cars that hit first, and although we may be near the back end of the train, our car will hit when its' turn comes.

Nobody has a crystal ball that works, so all we can do is guess at timing. I don't know anything much, so I have to depend on those who know more. It looks like, from what they say, that Europe or Japan could be first down the sewer, followed by UK, and the US. Here's a short video clip on that. 





Since we have to laugh to keep from crying about all this, here's the latest from the irreverent and NOT politically correct Silver Bears:


----------



## Foreverautumn

I don't mean to brag or anything, but this is like the 2nd or 3rd "End of the World" I've survived. The first one I survived was Y2K, the second was the Mayan Prophecy, and the third one was the NWO conspiracy that everybody and his dog swore up and down the UN/Rockefellers/Bildebergers/Meestermeisters were cooking up in their underground lair while twiddling their moustaches.


----------



## BlueShoe

Can you remember a time in world history that some group has not been trying to rule the world by any means available? Actually, can you name a time when SEVERAL groups haven't been trying to rule the world by any means available?

Hale-Bopp, Y2K, Mayan Calendar were all media sensations. World groups actually exist and are currently trying to steal more from you for themselves. I suspect anybody saying differently.


----------



## cqp33

Just want to mention that the little short video clip linked above was not what I expected in regard to an "economic collapse"! Funny though and so true but I was expecting a little bit more "nuts and bolts"! LOL I understand economics, actually have a useless degree in it because it was easy, now after I retire from the Navy in August I am gonna go to work as a boiler inspector with a business management degree with a major study in economics, WTF! Just go to show how valuable that little piece of paper isn't!


----------



## partdeux

cqp33 said:


> Just go to show how valuable that little piece of paper isn't!


I would suggest that piece of paper shows initiative and a willingness (and ability) to learn. Besides, I'd bet there are a lot of little tidbits you retained that help you not only in your work, but in life.


----------



## machinist

I also have a couple of those papers. They make a great ticket in the door for certain jobs, but I can't say I learned much acquiring them. It's like the Cowardly lion's "courage medal" in The Wizard of Oz, whereby he gets recognition, whether he deserves it or not.


----------



## Roebears

Courage Medal That's Hilarious !!!


----------



## machinist

Here's a more timely video, RE: Cyprus.






The video is somewhat out of date already, since today we learned that the Russians got their money out ahead of the "tax" on deposits. This could trash the last remaining "good bank" in Cyprus, forcing them to ask for more bailout money. 
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-...entral-bank-set-expand-emergency-credit-€3-bi

European officials have recently said in various ways that Cyprus' depositors "Haircut" is the "template", or model for the rest of Europe. If this doesn't start bank runs, I don't know what it will require.


----------



## Boris

i am not a prophet or the son of a prophet, but if things continue the way they have been, i would say big changes are on the horizon. say toward the end of the year. if i am wrong..... HALLELUJAH!!!


----------



## HootOwl

A TEOWAWKI TIMELINE short version III (HootOwl Marky)

2013 - Obfuscation by the powers that be about what is going on. Peak Oil. July We can still buy bananas. Light crude already going off the cliff (Hubbert's bell curve). Many cars on the roads still going everywhere at once in the US. Contrived ammo shortage in the US. (Apparently the government knows that they are going to have civil disorder and they would like to remove as many armed Americans from the equation as they possibly can. The greatest depression begins in earnest before the end of the year. Some sort of financial crash.

2014 - Rising prices and shortages of needful things. Prices of things, either stocks or commodities, can't be used to predict collapse due to gross market manipulation. Only shortages can tell the tale and by then it will be far too late to mitigate whatever we are short of. Contrived ammo shortage will be followed by a very real fuel shortage. This will be followed by an everything that is transported shortage. Governments will curtail liberties. Fascism will rule for a time. It looks like supply and demand (oil/gas) will cross in 2014 or before. The age of cheap oil is over. There will be no economic recovery. Higher prices. Shortages. Contraction on all fronts. More hitchhikers, more crime, car burglaries, government spying escalates as they attempt to keep control, burglaries of homes, patches on clothes, ugly damaged shoes, people getting desperate, large increase in yard/garage sales, yes, we have no bananas. Blackouts & brownouts likely in Florida (they depend more heavily than other states on diesel power generation. Government payments frozen or reduced and some even cut completely as this ship sinks. Social Security, food stamps, veteran benefits, etcetera. Populations around the world under stress will riot as they will still believe that a change in government can change the reality of what is going on. Food importing nations will be hit first and hardest. Food prices increase.

2015 - More Fascism US blackouts and brownouts become the norm. Water (clean) becomes a problem. Waterborne diseases increase. Liquid fuel shortage - Gas lines. Some services to do with transportation canceled. Anger, impatience, confusion, desperation. Rationing. Inflation. Gas theft, hoarding, cheating. Winter people (northerners) begin moving south. Bank crisis, where people cannot access their funds. Depression in full swing by end of year. Government will WAR for Fuel. WAR for Food. They will go on foot! Troops will be recalled from far flung posts along with the assets that they have and those they are assigned to guard. 

2016 - Liquid Fuel Shortage ongoing. Rationing. Coal use ramped up. Global warming worsening and affecting the weather big time. Trash piles up in cities. Deforestation begins as wood is burned for heat.

2017 - Cut backs in all transport. No more school buses. System collapse. Dominoes fall. 

2018 - Starvation begins around the world by now. US health care system in complete chaos. Breakdown & failure; sanitation, drugs, communicable diseases, poor nutrition. World die off begins in earnest. 100 years of 100 million extra deaths per year worldwide. Life expectancy down from 72 to 52. Sudden. WWZ begins and spreads. Starving people are the Zombies. Wild dog packs eat humans! People are likeliest to die of starvation, violence or disease. Governments will try to use medical centers as points of control. That and any food distribution points. FEMA camp not a good thing for your family if you have any other option.

2019 - Plague. Starvation spreads around the world. Martial law. Curfews. Police law breaking down.

2020 - 2025 - Rule of Law about gone. Time of scavenging. Recycling. Food local. Government local. No air travel. Gangs rule. Judge Roy Bean.

REMEMBER, EGYPTIANS AND AZTECS MANAGED PERFECTLY WELL WITHOUT COAL OR OIL AS DID GEORGE HAND IN THE 1800'S.


----------



## invision

Interesting HootOwl... I think 2013-2015 will stretch out to 2016-2017 though, but nice estimate...


----------



## alwaysready

Good scenario one question at what point does hyperinflation kick in?


----------



## machinist

Hyperinflation may kick in soon after the Fed has to buy most of the new govt debt. They are on the way presently, but have a ways to go yet. There will come a point when the world realizes that QE will go on forever and US debts will never be repaid except with funny munny, and confidence will be lost entirely. 

I would suggest that we may see shortages directly due to the above, when other countries greatly devalue the US dollar, or refuse to take it at all in trade. THEN, oil imports will virtually cease and TSHTF. 

Lower oil supply and more costly sources will contribute to an oil shortage, but I am betting that the dollar fails before physical shortage is a big problem. Resources are, after all, rationed by PRICE.


----------



## invision

machinist said:


> Hyperinflation may kick in soon after the Fed has to buy most of the new govt debt. They are on the way presently, but have a ways to go yet. There will come a point when the world realizes that QE will go on forever and US debts will never be repaid except with funny munny, and confidence will be lost entirely.
> 
> I would suggest that we may see shortages directly due to the above, when other countries greatly devalue the US dollar, or refuse to take it at all in trade. THEN, oil imports will virtually cease and TSHTF.
> 
> Lower oil supply and more costly sources will contribute to an oil shortage, but I am betting that the dollar fails before physical shortage is a big problem. Resources are, after all, rationed by PRICE.


Actually it could be as soon as 2015 if Great Britain and China complete the currency swap deal they are trying to close, IMO that would be enough to bring china into a co-world reserve currency with US if not debunk us from that position completely... If we are debunked, game over...


----------



## mojo4

In 2015 the wheels come off the economy as people begin to wake up and realize we have way way overprinted our money. Food fuel and shortages in just about everything else begin to happen as our trading countries demand gold for oil. Our troops are recalled to handle internal unrest. The worlds policeman just went home. Massive war in the middle east as the now united Arab states decide now is the time to reclaim Jerusalem. Israel stands alone and wins decisively smashing the Arab states invasion. The US is in total collapse and order is breaking down everywhere. Russia and China decide to invade Israel since they are now the wealthiest nation on earth since they now control all mideast oil. Worldwide panic ensues. Read Revelations for the end of the story.


----------



## BlueShoe

Well...people already realize that the f3d reserve has massively inflated the currency, and there is no way to pay it back. The numbers get worse since 10,000 Baby Boomers retire daily and seek federal benefits. Bernanke might even be gone before the bond bubble he created bursts. That doesn't rule 2015 out as being the time our nation hits the wall. He wants out now. I don't see many situations where the world's policeman goes home. They'll bring U En troops here in order to leave our U En troops over there somewhere, even if they have to do it through plunder. 

And I know I'm not the majority opinion on this, but there isn't much of my body that believes that this current nation-state of Israel is the same thing called out in Revelations, because that doesn't describe a nation-state. It describes the People of Jacob/Israel called out as the Israelites and almost none of the Israelis are Israelites. That's a fact that they aren't Israelites. You don't have to look very far into word meanings and translations to prove this out. What Revelation also says is beware of those who claim they are a certain people but are not, for they are of...you probably know the rest. If you believe Revelation and that this is the end time, then who are the people stated as being those who claim they are them, but are not?

Jerusalem was never in ancient Israel, either. It was in the land of Judah.

It was just announced recently, and went away almost immediately, that China has somehow gotten complete intel and full disclosure on all of our current military ordnance, developments and abilities. Everything. And the theft is so complete that this had to be an inside job. China is set to become the new resident champion of superpowers. All of the industrial might is in Asia. It is set to become the parent state of the major portion of the next world reserve currency. There's almost nothing to stop this from happening. And considering our western economies are dominated by a small group of people who have almost no influence over the Chinese, I think I can figure out who might have played a large role in connecting the Chinese with all of our military ordnance intel. It's not popular to say, but a group connected with the rogue state in the middle east has been doing it to us throughout our past.

All that said, I don't believe for more than a glimmer of a second that this is the End Times. It's just the end of a phony currency created by international people (they're money worshipers, not God worshipers) who don't value our existence when we're played out. They'll just move on to the next superpower that they can live off of by getting into their currency. My belief is that if a person worships phony currency, this is your end time. We're all getting it confused because certain preachers and politicians are conning people the same way they have throughout history that scripture means something that it doesn't.

When the USSR was collapsing, other nations were buying their military technology, even war heads. Submarines were for sale. Western powers had to go in and secure munitions and systems so that hungry soldiers and disgruntled groups couldn't plundering them to rogue nations. With the US military theft involving the Chinese recently, is that what we're seeing starting here? Probably.

It all goes back to the phony currency based on debt instead of value.


----------



## FrankW

Folks, honestly as much as I want it to be sooner so the dirtbags get whats coming to them, barring a black swan event like an epidemic or such, I gotta say probably still decades away.

Why?
The system has a lot of resiliency because this country still has so much substance that can be mortgaged away to the hilt so the collapse can always be postponed by the then-current crop of politicians yet another decade.

This way they made _their_ career and _their _money and the collapse didn't happen on their watch..

This game can be played agian and again..
So until the economy breaks aprt in a way obvious ot everyone it could still be 20,30 even 40 years.

Thats why I think it's best we look at prepping as a healthy hobby that could in an emergency pay us back, unlike say car collecting, but we should _not_ let it take over our lives.

The best way to prep for your children is to make them go to college in a subject jhat will always be a money maker.
Chemical Engineering comes to mind as a prime example.
Petroleum Engineering is another example.

When I am finished with my Army Career I will do one of those "scientist-to-engineer" conversion programs to ensure my indefinite employability


----------



## BlueShoe

Sadly, the dirtbags don't get what's coming to them in the world. They just move on to the next host and land on their feet leaving the struggle and toil to those left behind.

Personally, I don't think it will decades before the final stage of the current system. Also, the value won't evaporate overnight when it happens. The looting will continue for decades as corporations suck it out over time for all it's worth. 

When it happens, they're not going to leave your arms alone with you. And don't overlook the trades for a career for children. That's how nations are constructed/reconstructed. Someone has to design it, another builds and maintains it.


----------



## FrankW

tenOC said:


> . And don't overlook the trades for a career for children. That's how nations are constructed/reconstructed. Someone has to design it, another builds and maintains it.


very true.
Tradesmen will always been in demand especially when upheaval breaks a lot of stuff


----------



## hiwall

BlueZ, I rather hope (and believe) that you are wrong on your time table. Of course it is just a guess for any of us. I still believe we will see serious trouble yet this year. I will clearly state that your time frame is more likely based on past history. The resentment, anger, and hopelessness is building in this country at an alarming rate. Government and the courts seem to be doing everything they can to promote this. No matter what else happens, I think we will see more and more riots and single individuals going berserk as time goes on. If this happens then this country will become more and more of a police state. This in turn would fuel more and more resentment, anger, and hopelessness. And the situation would snowball. I already see and feel the resentment, anger, and hopelessness. I guess a don't always blame the MSM for not reporting all the crappy news as people see and hear enough already to cause the aforementioned feelings.


----------



## BillS

alwaysready said:


> Good scenario one question at what point does hyperinflation kick in?


I expect hyperinflation to start sometime this year. Next year at the latest. John Williams from shadowstats.com has said that panic selling of the dollar could start at any time. I believe him. The dollar has been described as being in pre-avalanche mode. Meaning that the conditions for a dollar collapse are there but it hasn't started yet.

I expect world war 3 to erupt in Syria. When that happens you can expect China and Russia to dump all their dollars and all their treasury bonds. That would be enough to collapse both markets.

There's also the matter of DHS stockpiling ammo and weapons in preparation for martial law. Martial law can be triggered at any time by the Fed announcing that QE is now over and the federal government announcing that food stamp cards will no longer work.

And there's the George Zimmerman trial. Ever since Trayvon Martin was shot the media showed old pictures of him to make it look like he was younger than he was. The media is doing all it can to foment racial hatred and presumably, to criminalize self-defense after Zimmerman is exonerated. Once Zimmerman is found innocent, expect race riots across the country. If food stamp cards fail at the same time we'll have anarchy and martial law in a very short time.


----------



## Onebigelf

I'm guessing a week from Thursday.

John


----------



## machinist

It's getting closer all the time. The Fed is buying up more bonds as the lender of last resort. Weather is funky here with extraordinary rainfalls in Indiana. Economy still sucks, and getting worse. The markets panicked when Bernanke mentioned "tapering" off QE. We are on the ragged edge.


----------



## BillS

The George Zimmerman trial continues. It should be over in a week or two. I wonder if Zimmerman being found innocent of all charges will cause enough violence for martial law. It sounds ridiculous at first but there's been a massive increase in violence with the black underclass. Here's just one example:

http://myfox8.com/2013/07/01/push-f...sive-fight-breaks-out-in-downtown-greensboro/

"GREENSBORO, N.C. - A massive fight in downtown Greensboro Saturday night has some city leaders taking a hard look at bringing back the teen curfew.

Nearly 400 people were involved in the several fights that happened along Elm Street.

Greensboro police arrested 11 people ranging in age from 16 to 20-years-old. Officers had to use pepper spray and a stun gun to try to get the crowd under control. Greensboro Police Department had to call UNCG Police and Guilford County for extra help."


----------



## machinist

I don't know anyone that really cares about that case, but that is just out here in the sticks. Cities are a very different breed of cat. I would think that today would be a great day to move out of a city if you live in one. If there is going to be a fight somewhere, I want to be far away from there.


----------



## FrankW

I think it would be hilarious if they fail to convict him despite his innocence.

the riots might serve a lot of good by waking up the mainstream.
Probably result in more gun sales too.


----------



## pandamonium

BlueZ said:


> I think it would be hilarious if they fail to convict him despite his innocence.
> 
> the riots might serve a lot of good by waking up the mainstream.
> Probably result in more gun sales too.


I think the only thing riots would do is take the live of innocent whites who happen to be in the way. It wont wake anybody up to reality, and Zimmerman will still be demonized and blamed for the riots. Like he forced a bunch of a-holes to go out and riot!!


----------



## pandamonium

As far as how much longer..... I think we are about halfway down the toilet bowl now, the closer you get to the bottom the faster the water swirls and he faster down we go. I hope not too soon, for my daughters sake.


----------



## BlueShoe

There will be riots but nothing to amount to much. The media will blow it up. Those who follow political media like it's a sporting event will blow it up. It will easily be localized and limited.

It's just typical for groups of people to simply look for a chance to riot every few once and a few whiles. When people don't have enough to occupy their time, it happens. Trayvon/Zimmerman won't be unique. It's distraction and intentional devision.


----------



## BillM

I am surprised that it hasn't already fallen apart !


----------



## JayJay

BillM said:


> I am surprised that it hasn't already fallen apart !


Mr. Bill, I am with you 100%. Printing must solve all this insolvency problem.
They are making all these unsustainable programs sustainable--sarc noted.


----------



## LongRider

machinist said:


> That's how I see this happening, and it is already well begun. We hear the crashing of cars that hit first, and although we may be near the back end of the train, our car will hit when its' turn comes.


Agreed I used to think that political oppression would be the match that ignites the explosion. If in the 50's we all of a sudden woke up to the kind of repressive anti Constitutional governmental control we live under today. I have no doubt there would have been a revolt. But the programing, brainwashing and conditioning has been slow enough that most Americans do not even know the extent that our freedom and liberty have been taken away from us. Like I have said in other posts very much like what my mother remembers happening in pre WWII Europe. Everyone came to believe in the absolute infallibility of authority and by extension the government. No one noticed or thought anything was wrong until cyanide started coming out of the shower head.

Same thing is going on now. As an example, do you remember reading George Orwell's "1984" and how horrifying the idea of living in that kind of totalitarian government was? Well get a teenager read that book now (they no longer use it in schools) and get their reaction on it. My bet is that they do not see a problem with anything in the book because it describes the world they live in today. Constant surveillance and complete governmental control is what they have grown up with. Its all normal to them. So who knows what the last straw is or when we the people decide our backs are against the wall.


----------



## invision

LongRider said:


> Agreed I used to think that political oppression would be the match that ignites the explosion. If in the 50's we all of a sudden woke up to the kind of repressive anti Constitutional governmental control we live under today. I have no doubt there would have been a revolt. But the programing, brainwashing and conditioning has been slow enough that most Americans do not even know the extent that our freedom and liberty have been taken away from us. Like I have said in other posts very much like what my mother remembers happening in pre WWII Europe. Everyone came to believe in the absolute infallibility of authority and by extension the government. No one noticed or thought anything was wrong until cyanide started coming out of the shower head.
> 
> Same thing is going on now. As an example, do you remember reading George Orwell's "1984" and how horrifying the idea of living in that kind of totalitarian government was? Well get a teenager read that book now (they no longer use it in schools) and get their reaction on it. My bet is that they do not see a problem with anything in the book because it describes the world they live in today. Constant surveillance and complete governmental control is what they have grown up with. Its all normal to them. So who knows what the last straw is or when we the people decide our backs are against the wall.


Not true, my daughter had to read it this year in 8th grade AP Lit... And if she didn't have to by Sophomore year, I would have had her...

But I agree, many of our freedoms have been trampled under the disguise of national security and other things...


----------



## BlueShoe

I didn't have to read it in school and I was still in school until the early '80s. I read it because it was in the house and I used to read anything that wasn't a murder mystery.


----------



## Meerkat

3 years and 30 days later and we are all still here. :2thumb:

The suspense gets to you but glad nothing has happened yet. I think it is coming soon though,even this year.


----------



## Tribal Warlord Thug

Vertigo said:


> Hi all,
> 
> It's been a while since I last was active on the forums, so first of all I hope everyone is doing fine and may you all be blessed in your preparations.
> 
> Now over to the topic at hand:
> 
> I am completely convinced 'it' will be a long, slow slide of recession. No major wars, civil wars, nuclear wars and the like are plausible in my opinion. In summation, there will not be a 'major SHTF situation' that people will be able to point to afterwards and say, that's when things got messy. Especially not in the Western countries.
> 
> - Although I am not doing the generation that is growing up now (and to which I belong), any favours, I think most of you will agree with me that this generation just does not have the stomach to seriously challenge the social constructs of today. They have been breast fed from day one to pick the easy way, the non-risk way. And they have such a strong sense of entitlement, they would rather starve to death than lift up one finger to help themselves.
> 
> - 'Big' issues like radical Islam, geo-terrorism, are not convincing arguments anymore. For one, Islam does not need to fight to win the day, they will just breed us out. (A couple of days ago, the news gave the confirmation that more than 50% of all people in Belgium's capital are of foreign decent right now, either first or second generation. And of which 85% are islamic). Geo-terrorism, is also complete bullocks since having ideas of 'loving mother nature' are luxuries that cannot be afforded once you have no food in your belly. Just listen to the reports that come from Africa, where farmers are told they must not farm so intensively as to not harm their environment...:nuts:
> 
> - A nuclear war, although quite possible still, is not something I would really worry about. Of course if only one nuke were to be launched by some state or nation, this would start up multiple waves of retaliation and the settlement of some 'old scores' and within minutes the entire planet would be engulfed by the full-on nuclear war. Meaning things like, high radiation levels everywhere, resulting in the death of almost all animal life, and with it a lot of plant life. Or nuclear winters, so cold it would kill anyone who hasn't died from radiation first. Therefore I exclude this scenario. Not only because there is almost nothing one can do to prepare themselves for this (and the decade long aftermath) but mainly because all the players on the map that have these nuclear devices, also know this. They all fully understand that if only one goes off, there will be a chain reaction, and thus there is no way to gain some strategic advantage over a foe.
> 
> Now over to the things I do believe will happen.
> 
> - This economic recession, despite what popular media will try to convince their audience, will only get worse. The reason being that nothing really changed fundamentally since this crisis started. What this will mean is higher food prices, higher oil prices, or more in general, an overall drop in standard of living. Because a lot of people are not prepared to live of less this year, they were living of last year, there will be an increase in civil unrest. Maybe some protesters will come together and burn a couple of cars and ransack some shops. Or a very active black market (with all its vices and excrements of society) will come about.
> 
> - Because of these overall increases in agression and violence of society, there will be more police brutality (not that I blame the police, when a mob of 2000 strong is marching towards the city centre, flinging molotov cocktails around and destroying property, some noses are bound to impact a police baton) and also a bigger call for more security. In a sense, people will be living in a police state, afraid of their own shadows.
> 
> - Martial law would be declared for a limited number of cities, just to get the people back under control. Or in the case of a natural disaster, à la Katrina, I am sure the government would have things under control much faster (by ignoring everyone's civil rights).
> 
> - Overall, it will not be possible to define the bad guys, it will not be possible to point with your finger to some official and say, 'you are to be blamed for all of this'. Neither will you be able to batten down the hatches and ride it out, because the duration of this slow slide will be way to long for anyone.
> 
> For a good mental picture, have a look at society in the movie 'Children of Men'. It depicts the situation in Britain, a few years into the future. (Just forget about fertility issues in that movie, but look at how society is structured and how people live their lives).
> 
> Anyway, this is already lenghty enough so I'll first let everyone comment some, in order to advance the discussion.
> 
> Best regards and take care,
> 
> V.


smart feller...............we are rome only at a bit accelerated timeline.....the downfall started when we started being a 'democracy'......lot of os old bastrdz have seen the begginin'-middle-end of the cold war...the late 60's race crap...the early 70's prediction of all freezin' to death, AKA the next 'ice age....oil crisis-carter presidency:nuts:.....Y2K...9-11......global warming farce....cme.....pole shift zeta's....gods a'comin' this month or maybe it was next month idiots.....shtf in 3-6-12-18-24-60-120 months from now...............the way i see'z it, i'm prepping my children for their future, which is when i truly beleive that the shit will truly hit the fan and they will be the ones who have to deal with it, not these last few generations of peeps.........sure, i wish for the shtf right now or in the very close future for my childrens sake but it ain't gonna happen on our watch i believe

.......just look at all the past 'predictions of the fall' that have been even close to bein' of any accuracy.......:nuts:

.....keep on preppin'.....yer children will need yer supplies!!!

:beercheer:


----------



## LongRider

invision said:


> Not true, my daughter had to read it this year in 8th grade


I stand corrected. In Washington it was not read, which is why I had my kids read it and got the shocking response I discussed. That discussion was kind of a wake up call for me too, an epiphany if you will. Made me realize I was I had not been paying attention to how far down the road to Fascism this country has gone. What did you daughter think of it?


----------



## DualGlock40z

I am sure it will be fast and quick and sneak up on us. Out of no were like a thief in the night , theyll come form the boaders of the sea and use gasses ,and shoot to kill no questions asked. The next civil war maybe , the next world war , more likely , remember the internet , tvs n etc is filterd you really have no idea what the hell is going on around us, so who is too say this last war wasnt a LOT BIGGER then the over seer wants us know . And further to tell all you guys something strange I dream about this , all of it , but the zombies were brainwashed soilders , our own, what is the likely hood of such events?
Within the next 6 to 8 years if we stay on course.


----------



## HoppeEL4

My own opinion is I don't know when, or how long into the future it will be. However, I do firmly believe the tipping point is going to be socio-political in nature. Look at the riots in other nations, it generally is not about money (money might play into some peoples frustration, but not most) it is the social or political stuff that finally brings out the masses.

Honestly, here, I know people are fed up with the trash we are seeing, the blatant political corruption, the corporate corruption (banks, etc..), the social upheaval of all that is normal and right. Anger is rising, and I have seen a lot of angry and frustrated people out there. I have to say, using that as a barometer, might be the indicator that things could get ugly fast.

So...I also am not sure that the social upheaval/uprisings is going to be something that will fully ruin our supply system enough to make things so bad, except in the inner cities, then there is where the troubles could be bad.

I know I am doing all I can do to return my family to the way I was brought up, less "city-like", more self-sufficient. I want to live simple, enjoy where we are and pray for the day the Lord decides He's done with us all. Till then I will prepare and anticipate some ugliness before His return, but try to enjoy my time here.


----------



## HootOwl

I believe that the USD will continue to hold world reserve currency status for some time into the future due to the fact that we export so much food (The Petro-Dollar becomes the Agra-Dollar). It's the food importing nations that will be under the most stress and thereby be most likely to suffer civil disorder first. Large price rises for needful things will put us all under stress and the easiest way to mitigate for our loved ones will be to purchase some non-perishable food (food that we'd use anyway) and to get with forming community along with those others who see what's coming. See the timeline I came up with and posted on 06-29-13 in this thread. I have been told that my timeline is probably off by a couple years and hope that this proves true as I would like to ride the wave of happy motoring for a couple extra years if possible. Blessings, and may we not experience any unexpected disasters in the meantime.


----------



## BillM

*Hyperinflation*

A lot of things are possible . Some are even probable but Hyperinflation is inevitable.

The US government can not even pay the accumulating interest on the money we owe foreign governments, even if we paid every nickel we took in in all combined US taxes in a year . The interest owed would continue to grow.

When hyperinflation happens , the price of all consumer goods will double every two weeks.

That means a can of beans that now costs a dollar will cost $128.00 in 24 weeks.

Money will become worthless.

If you are looking for a sign that this is starting, my guess is that the President will close the banks.

When Roosevelt did it , he called it a bank holiday.


----------



## Geek999

I would agree that inflation is likely to result from all the money printing that has already occurred. Hyperinflation is simply very fast inflation. If the inflation occurs over a long period of time then it won't be hyperinflation. I believe this is what the Fed is trying to achieve. If they get it right we'll see slow inflation spread over time. If they've blown it, then hyperinflation would be a possible result.

We'll all know eventually.


----------



## BillM

*God knows*



Geek999 said:


> I would agree that inflation is likely to result from all the money printing that has already occurred. Hyperinflation is simply very fast inflation. If the inflation occurs over a long period of time then it won't be hyperinflation. I believe this is what the Fed is trying to achieve. If they get it right we'll see slow inflation spread over time. If they've blown it, then hyperinflation would be a possible result.
> 
> We'll all know eventually.


God knows that the fed has every thing under control !


----------



## TheLazyL

"How Much Longer Till Everything Falls Apart?"

I have 5 years, 8 months, 18 days and 1 hour until I will retire.

I figure everything will fall apart in 5 years, 8 months, 18 days and 0 hours.


----------



## Tweto

TheLazyL said:


> "How Much Longer Till Everything Falls Apart?"
> 
> I have 5 years, 8 months, 18 days and 1 hour until I will retire.
> 
> I figure everything will fall apart in 5 years, 8 months, 18 days and 0 hours.


You are probably right. I know more people that were screwed out of retirement by some company policy change then I know people that got retirement.


----------



## Elinor0987

I don't know how much longer things will hold together. We've already seen a decline in the economy and society in general for a while now but it seems to be accelerating as time goes on. Here's an article that lists the opinions of those that hold a contrarian view of the main stream media. These are their predictions for what's coming ahead. If you click on their names you will be linked to the article that the quotes were taken from and it will go in more detail:

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/dent-faber-celente-maloney-rogers-what-do-they-say-is-coming-in-2014


----------



## HootOwl

Posted previously on posted on 06-29-13 and on 12-12-13 in this thread. After all is said and done I don't think any of us saw the 'refugee' problem happening from the middle east. It really is an invasion. They have a tremendous birthrate and don't have the ability to feed themselves so the plan was obviously made to 'invade' via using the PC types in Europe etc. to take them in. Apparently Europe has woken up to the danger after much blood but there is way more to come I expect and it is already here in the USA and will increase with any massive imports of 'refugees'. I don't believe that the government can successfully disarm us even with the help of the blue helmets so there is some hope yet. Can't talk about the plans I've heard discussed of what shall be done when and if but do think about it. Who will carry out the nefarious plans that can be identified as enemy? I love our military, I love our thin blue line as well. I love our children. They deserve a chance. Some lives do matter. Not all, but some. We are able to help one another still. God Bless America.


----------



## azrancher

HootOwl said:


> I love our military, I love our thin blue line as well. I love our children. They deserve a chance. Some lives do matter. Not all, but some. We are able to help one another still. God Bless America.


Wait, you're from New Mexico, i.e. Mexico Norte, you are supposed to be Liberal, and a leftist who want to give your very last dollar to help those who refuse to help themselves, I think you need to move one state left of where you are, but hurry Calif is taking over Phoenix.

*Rancher*


----------



## Meerkat

azrancher said:


> Wait, you're from New Mexico, i.e. Mexico Norte, you are supposed to be Liberal, and a leftist who want to give your very last dollar to help those who refuse to help themselves, I think you need to move one state left of where you are, but hurry Calif is taking over Phoenix.
> 
> *Rancher*


 Good luck wishing the best for you or any ranch owners in this occupied nation. 
:wave:


----------



## terri9630

azrancher said:


> Wait, you're from New Mexico, i.e. Mexico Norte, you are supposed to be Liberal, and a leftist who want to give your very last dollar to help those who refuse to help themselves, I think you need to move one state left of where you are, but hurry Calif is taking over Phoenix.
> 
> *Rancher*


The liberals are kept in the "big cities". Abq, Santa Fe, Las Cruces.... take a drive off of I10 or I25 and you'll find some interesting anti gov signs on the back roads.


----------



## AmishHeart

The liberals are kept in the big cities...(Albuquerque...and suburbs of)
Boy have I noticed!


----------



## LastOutlaw

HootOwl said:


> Posted previously on posted on 06-29-13 and on 12-12-13 in this thread. After all is said and done I don't think any of us saw the 'refugee' problem happening from the middle east. It really is an invasion. They have a tremendous birthrate and don't have the ability to feed themselves so the plan was obviously made to 'invade' via using the PC types in Europe etc. to take them in. Apparently Europe has woken up to the danger after much blood but there is way more to come I expect and it is already here in the USA and will increase with any massive imports of 'refugees'. I don't believe that the government can successfully disarm us even with the help of the blue helmets so there is some hope yet. Can't talk about the plans I've heard discussed of what shall be done when and if but do think about it. Who will carry out the nefarious plans that can be identified as enemy? I love our military, I love our thin blue line as well. I love our children. They deserve a chance. Some lives do matter. Not all, but some. We are able to help one another still. God Bless America.


Good to see you finally joining in... member since 2011 yet only 5 posts? then you dredge up a post from 2013? Doesn't really matter but seemed a bit odd. 
As for the refugees I'm beginning to think they aren't refugees but an army being slowly infiltrated into the land for future use. Especially with the recent news that is being publicized in Europe but found almost nowhere here in our country about the US and Russia going to war over Syria. The mentions by Russia of the US supporting ISIS and AlQueida and using them against Russia. 
Quite a few times this possibility has reared it's head in our news. From the Gun running from Libya to the Syrian rebels by then Sec of State Hillary Clinton that eventually led to the demise of those poor souls in Benghazi which was mentioned by Rand Paul years ago then quickly hushed up, Obama's attempted but failed installation of the Muslim Brotherhood into Egypt. 
It becomes clear why ISIS can drive long lines of vehicles down the highways in Iraq in Toyotas and newly acquired HumVees and yet no US aircraft attack them. Sure seems like an easy target for a couple of Warthogs to me. In fact it becomes clear how ISIS can take over so many countries so quickly after a vacuum has been coincidentally created by guess who? Us!
Now they are forcing another globalist who cares not about our country or sovereignty upon us... Who? Hillary. She has a speech and 400 people show up. Trump has one and thousands show up yet she is still even in the polls? BS.


----------



## fteter

Honest to goodness, I don't think we'll be able to point at a single event and say "that's when the wheels came off the bus." My thought (and it's just one guy's thinking) is that it's more of a process than a single event. Things will simply continue to deteriorate over time. And while that process has already kicked off, it's still got quite a way to run.


----------



## Tirediron

fteter said:


> Honest to goodness, I don't think we'll be able to point at a single event and say "that's when the wheels came off the bus." My thought (and it's just one guy's thinking) is that it's more of a process than a single event. Things will simply continue to deteriorate over time. And while that process has already kicked off, it's still got quite a way to run.


Quoted for being so darn accurate and precise. 
That would make a good signature line


----------



## hiwall

fteter said:


> Honest to goodness, I don't think we'll be able to point at a single event and say "that's when the wheels came off the bus." My thought (and it's just one guy's thinking) is that it's more of a process than a single event. Things will simply continue to deteriorate over time. And while that process has already kicked off, it's still got quite a way to run.


While the slow train wreck IS what is happening now (and will continue) a single event can still happen at any time that really gets things moving fast. If deutsche bank closes and declares bankruptcy is possibly one such event that might cause everything to tumble very quickly.


----------



## Tirediron

hiwall said:


> While the slow train wreck IS what is happening now (and will continue) a single event can still happen at any time that really gets things moving fast. If deutsche bank closes and declares bankruptcy is possibly one such event that might cause everything to tumble very quickly.


This too is very true, one too many straws and you need a new camel,


----------



## mikeymike

It just doesn't seem very far away in my opinion.

Elections= if Trump is true to his word they cant let him in because the house of cards will fall and a lot of people will be in jail.

War with Russia, China, Iran, North Korea

Financial Collapse

Planet X

I really think we will be seeing some strong signs within a month or two. If we make it past the first of the year I think everything will just continue on as it is for many years.


----------



## dutch9mm

Next Wednesday at 1400hrs


----------



## ShaneAtOGC

In short, I expect that the country will transform (collapse) within the next three years.Likely in the next two. I wrote an article last September on how I believe it will happen. If any of you read the article I ask a question that I would love to have your feedback on (here is fine). Essentially the question is, at what point do you personally make a hard stand.

I see the moderators removed the link to my article. While I completely understand running a business and moderating material, I have to say I question the judgment in removing a link to an article that explicitly addresses the OP and doesn't attempt to sell anything. Seems kind of counter-productive to the idea of a forum (information sharing).


----------



## BillS

fteter said:


> Honest to goodness, I don't think we'll be able to point at a single event and say "that's when the wheels came off the bus." My thought (and it's just one guy's thinking) is that it's more of a process than a single event. Things will simply continue to deteriorate over time. And while that process has already kicked off, it's still got quite a way to run.


I think there will be some big things coming that everyone will recognize. How about these as some possibilities?

*The day OPEC no longer accepts dollars as payment for oil*. Last I knew we imported half of our oil.

*The day the banks closed and our money was stolen. *Bank bail ins are coming. The big banks still have billions in toxic mortgages on their balance sheets carried at face value. Plus, Deutsche Bank is on the verge of collapse. It's expected to take down the entire western financial system with it.

*The day the dollar was devalued. *Jim Willie and Lindsey Williams both say that there's a domestic-only dollar coming and it will be devalued twice by 30% which will make it a 50% devaluation. Your debts will increase by the amount the dollar is devalued. So your $800 mortgage will become a $1600 mortgage even as your paycheck is cut in half.

*The day nuclear weapons were used in Syria*. Anybody think that wouldn't cause a stock market crash?

*How about a day when EBT cards stop working and riots occur in every big city in the country? *That would trigger martial law. Maybe the Russians would be blamed for the "technical glitch" that caused them to stop working.


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

ShaneAtOGC said:


> In short, I expect that the country will transform (collapse) within the next three years.Likely in the next two. I wrote an article last September on how I believe it will happen. If any of you read the article I ask a question that I would love to have your feedback on (here is fine). Essentially the question is, at what point do you personally make a hard stand.


That's a good question. I hesitate to draw a line in the sand on a public forum. There are just too many variables. I'd like to say if they come for my guns (which is a big line in the sand) but what do I say if they just over regulate ammo sales and make it near impossible to get? I think this is a good example of putting out a line in the sand that the government then finds a back route end around that achieves the same objective. Really I don't know what the line in the sand for enough of society to make a difference is. There are very few situations where I would make a hard stand on my own. Someone directly attacking me or my family with physical violence, coming in force to take my property, someone through the threat of force destroying my livelihood all come to mind. To make a hard stand on an individual basis it would have to be an all or nothing prospect. Like a situation that puts me in the nothing less to lose spot. A group hard stand is a different thing. We either have to be backed into a corner and have nothing less to lose or have a reasonable chance at success on the other side. I just typed this quickly without thinking much of it through but it's what came to mind. Interesting question. I'm sure I'll have more thoughts and would love to hear yours and others. This might deserve being moved to its own thread.


----------



## ShaneAtOGC

CrackbottomLouis said:


> That's a good question. I hesitate to draw a line in the sand on a public forum. There are just too many variables. I'd like to say if they come for my guns (which is a big line in the sand) but what do I say if they just over regulate ammo sales and make it near impossible to get? I think this is a good example of putting out a line in the sand that the government then finds a back route ......


CrackbottomLouis,
It seems you're thinking about it, which was exactly the intent of the question (article). I initially wrote it because I often hear people state "from my cold dead hands...." line. The problem is that often that's not really thought out. I have extensive combat experience and don't shy from a fight, however, a certain level of prudence should be applied. I personally won't sacrifice the life of my family (or even myself) to simply make such a simple final stand. That's not to be misunderstood as I will kneel down and take it either. As for what I concluded on the matter, I agree that public forums aren't the place to disclose certain personal lines or actions.


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

ShaneAtOGC said:


> CrackbottomLouis,
> It seems you're thinking about it, which was exactly the intent of the question (article). I initially wrote it because I often hear people state "from my cold dead hands...." line. The problem is that often that's not really thought out. I have extensive combat experience and don't shy from a fight, however, a certain level of prudence should be applied. I personally won't sacrifice the life of my family (or even myself) to simply make such a simple final stand. That's not to be misunderstood as I will kneel down and take it either. As for what I concluded on the matter, I agree that public forums aren't the place to disclose certain personal lines or actions.


I've seen many actions taken by the government that I was sure would spark more of a response than they did. I often find myself wondering, "well if that didn't kick off something bad what the hell is it going to take?". As far as a societal line in the sand goes I really have no clue. Honestly I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet. Back when I joined this forum someone stated "if you look around and get all pissed off, grab your gun, run outside and you find you are the only one than go back inside and calm down because it isn't time yet". That struck me as funny and I still quote it today. Wherever the line in the sand is we are approaching it quickly imo.


----------



## ShaneAtOGC

CrackbottomLouis said:


> I've seen many actions taken by the government that I was sure would spark more of a response than they did. I often find myself wondering, "well if that didn't kick off something bad what the hell is it going to take?". As far as a societal line in the sand goes I really have no clue. Honestly I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet. Back when I joined this forum someone stated "if you look around and get all pissed off, grab your gun, run outside and you find you are the only one than go back inside and calm down because it isn't time yet". That struck me as funny and I still quote it today. Wherever the line in the sand is we are approaching it quickly imo.


That's a good quote. I may have to borrow it (and of course credit it to an anonymous forum poster  ) . The only thing I would change is the people aren't ready yet. I make that small adjustment because I believe we are well past the point. Ideally, we as a people should have risen up and removed the corruption long ago. If we had it could have easily been accomplished by nonviolent means. The indoctrination has been going on so long (as you likely know from your signature quoting of Rand) I'm afraid the freedom is lost and now it is a matter of waiting (likely well after my lifetime) for the cycle to go through again and the people to once again desire freedom over security.


----------



## hiwall

> How Much Longer Till Everything Falls Apart


Doesn't it seem that things are happening faster now? And there seems to be more and more 'irons in the fire'.


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

ShaneAtOGC said:


> CrackbottomLouis,
> It seems you're thinking about it, which was exactly the intent of the question (article). I initially wrote it because I often hear people state "from my cold dead hands...." line. The problem is that often that's not really thought out. I have extensive combat experience and don't shy from a fight, however, a certain level of prudence should be applied. I personally won't sacrifice the life of my family (or even myself) to simply make such a simple final stand. That's not to be misunderstood as I will kneel down and take it either. As for what I concluded on the matter, I agree that public forums aren't the place to disclose certain personal lines or actions.


The more difficult question to answer is "who do you take a hard stand against?". It would be easy to answer if there were jackbooted thugs on their way to direct threaten me and mine. Without that it's more difficult. The head of the snake is pretty secure. Does it become anyone associated with the federal government? That's hard. I'm sure there are a lot of good folks in those ranks. I like to think anyone worth their salt would remove themselves from that situation leaving only those that are arent. I certainly don't think that's the case yet. My point is that until direct action is taken against the American people there is no face to an enemy other than politicians and their high level business cronies. The government knows this so they are working more back door strategies for as long as possible. I just see in my mind a bunch of pissed off folks running out of their houses with a rifle only to mill around asking "well who the hell do we fight?".


----------



## hiwall

CrackbottomLouis said:


> The more difficult question to answer is "who do you take a hard stand against?". It would be easy to answer if there were jackbooted thugs on their way to direct threaten me and mine. Without that it's more difficult. The head of the snake is pretty secure. Does it become anyone associated with the federal government? That's hard. I'm sure there are a lot of good folks in those ranks. I like to think anyone worth their salt would remove themselves from that situation leaving only those that are arent. I certainly don't think that's the case yet. My point is that until direct action is taken against the American people there is no face to an enemy other than politicians and their high level business cronies. The government knows this so they are working more back door strategies for as long as possible. I just see in my mind a bunch of pissed off folks running out of their houses with a rifle only to mill around asking "well who the hell do we fight?".


Quoted again so nobody will miss this important post.

This is the way a modern change occurs in a previously free country, a small piece at a time. I would fight to retain or bring back the country I was born in but there is no one to fight. There are roughly 22 million government employees. I'm sure some of your neighbors work for the government. Is the guy running the county road grader your enemy? Is the secretary to a Senator your enemy? Is the Secret Service guy protecting the President your enemy? I have no doubt that many government employees feel exactly as I do but do they quit their good job and thereby put their family at risk of economic hardship? Or if they are a couple years from retirement do they throw that away and quit?


----------



## crabapple

Tweto said:


> You are probably right. I know more people that were screwed out of retirement by some company policy change then I know people that got retirement.


That can not happen with a 401K-plan, they are protected by law, so the middle class can still support the welfare system after we retire.


----------



## hiwall

crabapple said:


> That can not happen with a 401K-plan, they are protected by law, so the middle class can still support the welfare system after we retire.


A law can be changed in one day.

Or a stock market crash can cut your 401k in half in a week.


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

crabapple said:


> That can not happen with a 401K-plan, they are protected by law, so the middle class can still support the welfare system after we retire.


Until ALL retirement funds are stolen by the government to pay our massive debt. It seems private sector retirement plans are the thing of 5he past anyway. Only place I see a retirement plan is government work.


----------



## crabapple

CrackbottomLouis said:


> Until ALL retirement funds are stolen by the government to pay our massive debt. It seems private sector retirement plans are the thing of 5he past anyway. Only place I see a retirement plan is government work.


Big money in banking & private sector retirement. If the banks own the Government like so many posters are fond of saying on this site. Then the Government will make more money off keeping these people in finance gainfully employed & tax everyone.
I will not save, if I can not keep it, so, they lose something like 150,000.00 in 
additional taxes, just on the interest i made in 40 years.
Now that number times 10 million people just like me & you have big money.
Plus the Government does not have to pay for my retirement until I die, I will pay the government.
And when I was making money off the investments, so was everyone who
who used my money. They all paid taxes on their money.
Any high school student can see that we are needed so the free loader can free load. Both in the Government & the street.


----------



## Meerkat

CrackbottomLouis said:


> Until ALL retirement funds are stolen by the government to pay our massive debt. It seems private sector retirement plans are the thing of 5he past anyway. Only place I see a retirement plan is government work.


 I have a friend whos sister retired from FBI about 15 yr.s ago, office worker whos retirement is SEVENTY FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS A YEAR.

So yes gov will pay their own. This woman is a good person she just hit the jackpot when she went to work for gov is all. Any of us would do the same thing if w worked for gov from the 60s till a couple decades ago.


----------



## AmishHeart

When the banks are doing "bail ins"


----------



## RevWC

October 2016


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

crabapple said:


> Big money in banking & private sector retirement. If the banks own the Government like so many posters are fond of saying on this site. Then the Government will make more money off keeping these people in finance gainfully employed & tax everyone.
> I will not save, if I can not keep it, so, they lose something like 150,000.00 in
> additional taxes, just on the interest i made in 40 years.
> Now that number times 10 million people just like me & you have big money.
> Plus the Government does not have to pay for my retirement until I die, I will pay the government.
> And when I was making money off the investments, so was everyone who
> who used my money. They all paid taxes on their money.
> Any high school student can see that we are needed so the free loader can free load. Both in the Government & the street.


You are using logic. Unfortunately the government logic of keeping people poor, subservient, and dependent on the government for control purposes trumps the logic of making money when all they have to do is print it anyway. Other countries have already set the precedent of robbing the accounts of their citizens. I don't think that course of action is out of the realm of possibility for our government.


----------



## crabapple

CrackbottomLouis said:


> You are using logic. Unfortunately the government logic of keeping people poor, subservient, and dependent on the government for control purposes trumps the logic of making money when all they have to do is print it anyway. Other countries have already set the precedent of robbing the accounts of their citizens. I don't think that course of action is out of the realm of possibility for our government.


Other countries do a lot of thing that we do not do. A few small countries got in over their heads, but most countries have learned from their example.
The government that took all our retirement would not be safe in their own homes & they know it.
But we can agree to disagree.


----------



## hiwall

Our Congress already passed the law making it legal to take everyone's money. It very likely Will happen at some point.


----------



## bigg777

crabapple said:


> The government that took all our retirement would not be safe in their own homes & they know it.
> But we can agree to disagree.


Our government already allowed the banks and their overlords to do this to millions in 2008-2009, yet here we are. TPTB are so blinded by power, greed and their own self-importance that they don't see what the silent minority(at this point) see happening to this once proud, robust beacon of freedom and self-determination. Our futures have been herded onto the slippery slope of socialism by bribery of the lowest economic classes, open borders and out-and-out theft by Wall Street and the banking complex. Those that don't toe the elitist-D.C.-Wall Street-SJW line are shouted down and called racist, Islamophobic, LGBTQphobic and deporable.

At this point, we may never again have a majority of the citizenry that believes that the U.S. Constitution is the bedrock of our nations greatness and must be protected at all costs. The ballot box is the single best way to effect change in the U.S.A., but there are other ways. We must be prepared to protect our country in ways that were unthinkable only a generation ago.

May god be with us all and may we find peaceful ways of righting this country's path but, if we cannot do it with our ballots, be prepared to do it by other means.


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

bigg777 said:


> Our government already allowed the banks and their overlords to do this to millions in 2008-2009, yet here we are. TPTB are so blinded by power, greed and their own self-importance that they don't see what the silent minority(at this point) see happening to this once proud, robust beacon of freedom and self-determination. Our futures have been herded onto the slippery slope of socialism by bribery of the lowest economic classes, open borders and out-and-out theft by Wall Street and the banking complex. Those that don't toe the elitist-D.C.-Wall Street-SJW line are shouted down and called racist, Islamophobic, LGBTQphobic and deporable.
> 
> At this point, we may never again have a majority of the citizenry that believes that the U.S. Constitution is the bedrock of our nations greatness and must be protected at all costs. The ballot box is the single best way to effect change in the U.S.A., but there are other ways. We must be prepared to protect our country in ways that were unthinkable only a generation ago.
> 
> May god be with us all and may we find peaceful ways of righting this country's path but, if we cannot do it with our ballots, be prepared to do it by other means.


^^this^^ well said sir


----------



## Resto

I think its already Over. The means to recover have been taken away. I don't think there is any "Turning Back" or "Turning Around". I think this Nation will be Very Different in the next few months. People too. This is Gonna Hurt. Ive been watching this slide for many years. The Nation I grew up in is gone. Im very Different from People younger than me and I didn't even recognize why. I think mainly because, I never cared much what others did and lived my own life to the Beat of Gods Drum. I always thought people were just acting out "Original Sin" or "Sinful Nature" so I witnessed Christ to save souls. I now understand that Sin is now the Norm in this country. It wasn't that way when I was growing up. The Scripture "As in The Days Of Sodom and Gamorah" keeps going through my head. Jesus is Coming and Boy Is He Pissed. Satans time is almost up. Be ready for anything in these next few months.


----------



## Uriel

How much longer? Such a monumental question I don't want to contemplate it. There's so much that could potentially go wrong a person can drive themselves nuts thinking of the how's and the when's. I don't spend a great deal of time burdening myself with those questions. Life can be quite stressful just dealing with the everyday stuff like paying bills and I don't even have it half as hard as some people do. It's not easy to find a balance and I think we all have different tipping points for want of a better word. Personally I can't afford to give too much time to ruminating so I try to stay as upbeat and positive as possible. If someone were to ask me what I am preparing for I would tell them in a nutshell 'a simpler life'. If they were to ask when? I would reply 'hopefully as soon as possible'. A simpler life is not a disaster or a crisis. A simpler life can be rewarding, uncluttered, enjoyable, more socially intimate. Just living and enjoying a more self-sufficient, simple lifestyle will cover a lot of the bases and should hopefully keep the stress at a manageable level..... is my theory anyway :dunno:


----------



## crabapple

bigg777 said:


> Our government already allowed the banks and their overlords to do this to millions in 2008-2009, yet here we are. TPTB are so blinded by power, greed and their own self-importance that they don't see what the silent minority(at this point) see happening to this once proud, robust beacon of freedom and self-determination. Our futures have been herded onto the slippery slope of socialism by bribery of the lowest economic classes, open borders and out-and-out theft by Wall Street and the banking complex. Those that don't toe the elitist-D.C.-Wall Street-SJW line are shouted down and called racist, Islamophobic, LGBTQphobic and deporable.
> 
> At this point, we may never again have a majority of the citizenry that believes that the U.S. Constitution is the bedrock of our nations greatness and must be protected at all costs. The ballot box is the single best way to effect change in the U.S.A., but there are other ways. We must be prepared to protect our country in ways that were unthinkable only a generation ago.
> 
> May god be with us all and may we find peaceful ways of righting this country's path but, if we cannot do it with our ballots, be prepared to do it by other means.


I checked my records & I lost no money in 2008-2009, I make some from the dip & bounce back of the market.


----------



## readytogo

*Pessimism is bad for you.*

Research can show a list of many financial crises; from the 13th century to the 21th and we humans are still here, well except those who happen to commit hara-kiri or blow their brains out, do to greed and gluttony .We live our lives in many different ways some are full blown pessimistics and others are optimistic and the ones that live full of pessimism are nothing but miserable, their world is miserable and full of unfounded theories and probably are on debt up to their ears. I live in a wonderful country I`m free to express my opinion everywhere I go I also happen to have lived in a corrupt and totalitarian government where many members of my family have been jail or shot for trying to escape or just having some stored food. There are many experts out there claiming the end of the world as we know it, hell probably wanting to see some kind of event to see some misery on humankind and what we need to do is help each other more be more friendly towards each other more neighborly and spend less on junk clear our debts and enjoy life for what it is, oh and stop paying attention to the flim flams of the world .My humble opinion.:surrender:


----------



## Griff

Please don't take this wrong, but I don't care anymore. 

Call it peace of mind, or "the acceptance stage", or fatigue. Whatever gets you through the night. 

There may be some new-found optimism, as well.  Its been a long 10 years being told I'm the cause of all the world's problems, and I'm glad that's over. Might also have learned that a lot of people profit from trying to tell us what to be afraid of, and don't want any part of that. 

Realistically, we've covered or are in the process of plans B and C for just about everything possible on our level...including raising and passing along to our next generation. We've gotten to the place where we'd be spinning our wheels to go any further, and would miss out on a lot of life waiting for death. So after you've done everything you can, that only leaves the things you can't plan for or do anything about. 

You go looking for doomsday, it'll find you. Know when to stop preparing and start living.


----------



## BillS

The more time goes on the more amazed I am that the economy hasn't crashed yet and we don't have hyperinflation. 

There are bubbles all over the place. There are bubbles with car loans, real estate, student loans, government debt, personal debt, and corporate debt. 

The banks are in trouble over government bonds, fracking industry loans, residential real estate loans and commercial real estate loans. This year we'll have the most store closings in any year in our history. People just don't have the money to spend anymore.

Gold and silver continue to have their prices suppressed despite peak global demand and declining global production. Cryptocurrencies are taking off. The Federal Reserve and the central banks can't suppress their prices so they're taking off. It could be like the dot com bubble where the vast majority die but a few strong players succeed, but in the mean time there's still a lot of money to be made. I bought some Ethereum 13 days ago and it's up 70% since then. It's gone from $225 to $295. I see no reason why it won't reach $1000.


----------



## dutch9mm

Because America sorts its shit out.


----------



## jrb4jazz

Yes, there certainly is a lot to be worried about in today's crazy world.. But for fun, here is another perspective. Recently purchased a box of old Playboy magazines dating back to the 60s. What a hoot. Found a Daddy Warbucks cartoon with the cigar smoking old man complaining about how the world has gone to hell. All his "issues" were the same ones we are bitching about today. Made me laugh out loud. In 57 years, not much has really changed. Oh, and let's not forget. They once thought the world would come to an end with the advent of the crossbow. Gotta keep a sense of humor.


----------



## LincTex

Griff said:


> Realistically, we've covered or are in the process of plans B and C for just about everything possible on our level...including raising and passing along to our next generation. We've gotten to the place where we'd be spinning our wheels to go any further, and would miss out on a lot of life waiting for death. So after you've done everything you can, that only leaves the things you can't plan for or do anything about.


I went through a panic 10 years or so ago where I felt I was woefully inadequately prepared... Now I am comfortable. 
I can't handle ANY disaster, but if something major goes down, I'll be OK.


----------



## SheepdogPRS

There have always been those who see the end coming in the near future and I suppose there will always be new ones with new dates. Only the last one will even be close. Live for today and plan for tomorrow because yesterday is gone and tomorrow is a dream or a nightmare. If you are doing something you are not happy in then find something you can do and be happy. I am not planning for a catastrophe or dooms day but I am making sure that I have water to drink, food to eat, a place to live and good times to share. 
It could all end tomorrow or last until the sun vaporizes our planet just before it becomes a white dwarf star. Life is a sexually transmitted terminal disease. Nobody gets out alive so you might as well enjoy each part of every day. Learn from it what you can and share your knowledge because knowledge only has value when it is shared.


----------



## oldasrocks

Good Advice Sheepdog. I wish I had never heard of the bird flu etc. I know a couple of illegals, working hard, making good money and spending it accordingly as they know they might be deported tomorrow.

I could have done a lot of traveling, enjoying life instead of sitting around gathering preps and fortifying the place with the same money. Now I'm too old to care.


----------



## Flight1630




----------



## LincTex

oldasrocks said:


> I could have done a lot of traveling, enjoying life instead of sitting around gathering preps and fortifying the place with the same money. Now I'm too old to care.


It does NOT have to be that way.

Prepping has never been a "full-time" or "all-consuming" thing, and it shouldn't be. Dedicate maybe 1/2 hour a day to update and modify your "running list" of things to do and things to get.

As the list gets shorter and shorter, 
life gets more and more enjoyable.
Food stored? check.
Garden soil amended? check.
Bio-Sand water filter built? check. 
Solar panels up and batteries, controller, etc. wired up? check.

It doesn't all get done in one day....... but do a little bit each day. All of a sudden, the "running list" gets pretty short.


----------



## Sentry18

LincTex said:


> It does NOT have to be that way.
> 
> Prepping has never been a "full-time" or "all-consuming" thing, and it shouldn't be. Dedicate maybe 1/2 hour a day to update and modify your "running list" of things to do and things to get.
> 
> As the list gets shorter and shorter,
> life gets more and more enjoyable.
> Food stored? check.
> Garden soil amended? check.
> Bio-Sand water filter built? check.
> Solar panels up and batteries, controller, etc. wired up? check.
> 
> It doesn't all get done in one day....... but do a little bit each day. All of a sudden, the "running list" gets pretty short.


Amen.

I have said many times that while I am a prepper I am not only a prepper. I have a lot of things that divide my time and attention, which includes a little time for myself and as much time for my wife & kids as possible. Once I was set to keep my family fed and protected for several months I took things a whole lot slower than I did the first 9-12 months. I think of prepping the same way I think about saving money or buying guns; a long term accumulative process that is given an appropriate amount of attention and no more. Then again I am not a dug in homesteader with a bunker, I could see that being far more consuming.


----------



## LincTex

Sentry18 said:


> Amen.
> 
> Then again I am not a dug in homesteader with a bunker, I could see that being far more consuming.


Ha! 
I don't have a bunker, though. 

Raising your own food is a huge, HUGE learning process. I am nowhere near yet to the point where I could raise 100% of my own food, let alone enough to feed a family of any size. Besides deer, rabbits, birds, etc. and who knows what else critters.... and at least 1000 different bugs (well, almost....maybe)... it seems everything wants to enjoy the fruits of my labor.

It's a pretty big challenge.


----------



## Sentry18

LincTex said:


> Ha!
> I don't have a bunker, though.
> 
> Raising your own food is a huge, HUGE learning process. I am nowhere near yet to the point where I could raise 100% of my own food, let alone enough to feed a family of any size. Besides deer, rabbits, birds, etc. and who knows what else critters.... and at least 1000 different bugs (well, almost....maybe)... it seems everything wants to enjoy the fruits of my labor.
> 
> It's a pretty big challenge.


You don't have a bunker...yet.


----------



## SheepdogPRS

Bunkers are great for tornadoes and wild fire but they're no good for much else than a last stand. You can be waited out, smoked out or busted into. It is better to be able to be mobile if necessary. 

As far as being prepared goes, It is just part of my life. The last few months have been busy and this month will be busy with harvesting and canning but I still have time to work in the shop and get the cars ready for winter. I don't enjoy travel for the sake of travel but I have seen the Grand Canyon, the Mississippi River and been all over the USA (staying clear of the east coast). I have backpacked all over the Cascades and Olympics and hunted and fished most of Western Washington and parts of eastern Washington. The place I have felt most at home is eastern Washington. I have no mortgage, three vehicles, and I am completely debt free. I am as prepared for most anything that happens but I do need to build a wood stove and install it in the house. I just found out that when the Cascadia Subduction Zone lets go it will likely interrupt the gas lines here. We heat with gas and the stove and water heater are gas. So I need a wood stove that I can cook on and plumb into the water for hot water. The shop and garage have heat pumps to keep them warm. The outage won't last long but if it happened in the winter we would need heat to keep the pantry from freezing. I suppose I could replace my air conditioner with a heat pump. That would provide some heat if the gas went out but we still need hot water. The camp stove could be used to cook on and the vent fan would get rid of the fumes. I guess I have some planning to do. We have learned a lot about what grows and what doesn't and we plan to keep increasing the size of our garden based on what we have to buy. We use raised beds for most of our food and that works well for most every thing. We use only heirloom plants and collect the seeds. Most of our breads are sourdough that way we don't need to keep yeast on hand and we really like the sourdough twang. It's all just part of living and we enjoy it. (in spite of me telling the wife I'm no farmer)


----------



## Mortblanc

I know people that graduated high school, then graduated college, started good careers, married and had a couple of kids since this thread started!

The end of the world is nigh?


----------



## SheepdogPRS

I quit asking that question a long time ago. I live each day doing what I do. I help my neighbors when they need it and they help when I ask. We get things done and move on. Live, love and share your happiness. I wouldn't do anything else even if I knew that today was my last day.


----------



## terri9630

Mortblanc said:


> I know people that graduated high school, then graduated college, started good careers, married and had a couple of kids since this thread started!
> 
> The end of the world is nigh?


I don't know about the world, but there have been many who have been burned out, flooded, lost jobs and such. I know quite a few who were flooded just a few weeks ago. One of my SIL's was flooded out and my other SIL was able to take her in and help her because of her preps. Maybe not the end of the whole world but it certainly interrupted her world.


----------



## sewingcreations15

We view prepping as just like shopping for food and it doesn't take us long to do nor does it take up all of our time. We just pick 1 - 3 things we need to stock and work on them as the budget allows as we are both on pensions. Prepping doesn't need to cost a fortune either if you shop carefully.

All I can say is all of our friends pop over regularly to see just what we are up to on the gardening front and love the equipment and system we have set up.

We are self sufficient in vegetables and berries all year round and never buy any as well as most groceries, medications, lighting and wood. In the end we all can only do what we can do and the rest is in the lap of the gods.


----------



## LincTex

Mortblanc said:


> I know people that graduated high school, then graduated college, started good careers, married and had a couple of kids since this thread started!


Funny, I got (was) married 9 days before this thread started. It's been almost 8 years ago.


----------



## Quills

I've been homesteading/prepping for a lot of years. To my way of thinking, it's not about speculating when or how -- there are so many different possible scenarios (including nothing at all happening) that it's a hopeless endeavour. 

For us, it's about sustainability, no matter what. Even if nothing happens


----------



## tsrwivey

We just like being independent. Something satisfying about living in a paid for house, eating a meal produced completely by your family, or just knowing if the lights go out for a week your family won't die.


----------



## NHPrepper2

By midnight November 30


----------



## hiwall

NHPrepper2 said:


> By midnight November 30


What year????


----------



## Sentry18

hiwall said:


> What year????


9783 A.D. give or take a few centuries or millennia.


----------



## NHPrepper2

Haha, if I gave a year it would be far too specific.


----------



## NHPrepper2

Sentry18 said:


> 9783 A.D. give or take a few centuries or millennia.


Pretty much


----------



## ssonb

NH prepper2 You need to offer a video For 29.95( to cover research fees and shipping) where you will reveal the secrets in how you used the SWAG method to arrive at that date. Of course it will have to be a three part series.


----------



## Meerkat

LincTex said:


> Ha!
> I don't have a bunker, though.
> 
> Raising your own food is a huge, HUGE learning process. I am nowhere near yet to the point where I could raise 100% of my own food, let alone enough to feed a family of any size. Besides deer, rabbits, birds, etc. and who knows what else critters.... and at least 1000 different bugs (well, almost....maybe)... it seems everything wants to enjoy the fruits of my labor.
> 
> It's a pretty big challenge.


My husband family always hunted unlike mine.
And their is not much wild they didn't eat except 'road kill' maybe.
He stopped hunting many years ago but knows how to clean any animal. 
He use to shoot birds to eat, his mother said, " kill it clean and I'll cook it for you". 
Me being a city slicker whos mother thought she was self appointed humain society didn't like hunting.
So I was very leary of what they were having for dinner when I visited his family. I'd say "don't lie to me. is that possum or squirrel".LOL.


----------



## SheepdogPRS

In approximately 4 billion years the sun will have expanded to engulf the earth. I am pretty sure that some hundreds of thousand years before that happens this little blue speck will have become a red ball of molten rock. There won't be any thing left to hit a fan - or even a fan to hit.


----------



## ssonb

Sheepdog,Of course there will someone out there in Internet world would have to tell you that you did not buy the right fan.


----------



## BillS

The story of the century is the fact that the federal government spends so much money that the Federal Reserve creates a trillion new dollars every year to fund the deficit. We now have monthly deficits the size of what our annual deficits used to be. Just after World War I when Germany started printing money with nothing to back it up they got hyperinflation in about 6 years. It's not necessarily clear about when money printing began in America. Certainly by the time of the 2008 financial crisis. It's also worth noting that the national debt doubled under each of the last 3 presidents. So most of the economists and investment people in the alternative media expected it 5 years ago. It hasn't happened yet but it's still coming. People need to be prepared for it. Ideally people would have at least enough gold or silver to buy food and gasoline for a year based on the current prices of those items. The last thing you want is to use up all your stored food before the collapse. I expect big increases in the prices of PM's once the big banks and the Fed can no longer suppress the price. I've seen a number of predictions of something like $10,000 gold and $600 silver. If that's true then even $1,000 worth of silver today would be worth $30,000 or more by then.


----------



## RedBeard

Sentry18 said:


> Then again I am not a dug in homesteader with a bunker, I could see that being far more consuming.


I prefer to call it a "root cellar". Sounds less crazy when said out loud....


----------



## Meerkat

SheepdogPRS said:


> In approximately 4 billion years the sun will have expanded to engulf the earth. I am pretty sure that some hundreds of thousand years before that happens this little blue speck will have become a red ball of molten rock. There won't be any thing left to hit a fan - or even a fan to hit.


 Well how do you know we won't be building another earth up? I read that we were created to plant the heavens don't know but it sounds good to me.


----------



## BillS

Meerkat said:


> Well how do you know we won't be building another earth up? I read that we were created to plant the heavens don't know but it sounds good to me.


We're not going to be here that long. I believe the last generation started when Israel recaptured Jerusalem. We're seeing all the Last Days signs that were spoken of in the New Testament. Morality is in freefall. Evil is good (like homosexuality, adultery, premarital sex) and good is evil (like Christian faith and biblical morality). False teachers are everywhere:

(2 Timothy 4:3 NIV) For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

I believe that one event has to happen before the Rapture. That's the Ezekiel 38 and 39 prophesies. There will be a multinational attack on Israel so big that God himself will intervene.

(Ezekiel 38:1-9 NIV) The word of the LORD came to me: {2} "Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal; prophesy against him {3} and say: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. {4} I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army--your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords. {5} Persia, Cush and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets, {6} also Gomer with all its troops, and Beth Togarmah from the far north with all its troops--the many nations with you. {7} "'Get ready; be prepared, you and all the hordes gathered about you, and take command of them. {8} After many days you will be called to arms. *In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety.* {9} You and all your troops and the many nations with you will go up, advancing like a storm; you will be like a cloud covering the land.

(Ezekiel 38:14-16 NIV) "Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it? {15} You will come from your place in the far north, you and many nations with you, all of them riding on horses, a great horde, a mighty army. {16} You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land. In days to come, O Gog, I will bring you against my land, so that the nations may know me when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.

(Ezekiel 38:18-23 NIV) This is what will happen in that day: When Gog attacks the land of Israel, my hot anger will be aroused, declares the Sovereign LORD. {19} In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. {20} The fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence. The mountains will be overturned, the cliffs will crumble and every wall will fall to the ground. {21} I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign LORD. Every man's sword will be against his brother. {22} I will execute judgment upon him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him. {23} And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the LORD.'

(Ezekiel 39:1-7 NIV) "Son of man, prophesy against Gog and say: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. {2} I will turn you around and drag you along. I will bring you from the far north and send you against the mountains of Israel. {3} Then I will strike your bow from your left hand and make your arrows drop from your right hand. {4} On the mountains of Israel you will fall, you and all your troops and the nations with you. I will give you as food to all kinds of carrion birds and to the wild animals. {5} You will fall in the open field, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD. {6} I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in safety in the coastlands, and they will know that I am the LORD. {7} "'I will make known my holy name among my people Israel. I will no longer let my holy name be profaned, and the nations will know that I the LORD am the Holy One in Israel.


----------



## RedBeard

Or human nature and history dictates every civilization has risen and fallen. And so shall we.


----------



## ssonb

And is it not amazing that each "empire's" path to their fall follow almost the same pattern.


----------



## RedBeard

ssonb said:


> And is it not amazing that each "empire's" path to their fall follow almost the same pattern.


I contribute that to human nature and greed.


----------



## TheLazyL

SheepdogPRS said:


> In approximately 4 billion years the sun will have expanded to engulf the earth. I am pretty sure that some hundreds of thousand years before that happens this little blue speck will have become a red ball of molten rock. There won't be any thing left to hit a fan - or even a fan to hit.


No problem. I'll be living on Mars by then.


----------



## ssonb

The usual deluded response I get is "But man has changed, Just look at what we have built."


----------



## ssonb

Then Mars will be Mercury and you will need that fan.....


----------



## RedBeard

ssonb said:


> The usual deluded response I get is "But man has changed, Just look at what we have built."


Haha! ya..... Man has changed, that's funny.


----------



## bugoutbob

It all fell apart a long time ago. It just doesn't know enough to roll over and die yet.


----------



## RedBeard

bugoutbob said:


> It all fell apart a long time ago. It just doesn't know enough to roll over and die yet.


246 post on this thread. I feel like bugoutbob's post should be moved to post number one based purely on accuracy.


----------



## hiwall

I am having doubts that it will fall apart in my lifetime.


----------



## ssonb

Hey HW have you got an 1885..


----------



## hiwall

ssonb said:


> Hey HW have you got an 1885..


I used to have several but my interests changed and now I have none. Used to hunt with one in 38-55.


----------



## RedBeard

hiwall said:


> I am having doubts that it will fall apart in my lifetime.


I don't know.... Could just be all hype, could go to hell tomorrow.


----------



## ssonb

I just recently got a HI Wall in 45-70 and am wanting to start shooting longer range. So far just 100 yrds,


----------



## oldasrocks

I'm hoping it crashes next week. My preps are getting old.


----------



## cqp33

BillS said:


> The story of the century is the fact that the federal government spends so much money that the Federal Reserve creates a trillion new dollars every year to fund the deficit. We now have monthly deficits the size of what our annual deficits used to be. Just after World War I when Germany started printing money with nothing to back it up they got hyperinflation in about 6 years. It's not necessarily clear about when money printing began in America. Certainly by the time of the 2008 financial crisis. It's also worth noting that the national debt doubled under each of the last 3 presidents. So most of the economists and investment people in the alternative media expected it 5 years ago. It hasn't happened yet but it's still coming. People need to be prepared for it. Ideally people would have at least enough gold or silver to buy food and gasoline for a year based on the current prices of those items. The last thing you want is to use up all your stored food before the collapse. I expect big increases in the prices of PM's once the big banks and the Fed can no longer suppress the price. I've seen a number of predictions of something like $10,000 gold and $600 silver. If that's true then even $1,000 worth of silver today would be worth $30,000 or more by then.


Bills, I have to agree that there will be signs like a huge spike in PM's. Once faith is lost in the US dollar it will rough for sure! I do believe that the more time that goes by before the collapse the longer and harder felt it will be.


----------



## BillS

For the last 6 years I've always thought that we could be 6 months to a year before everything falls apart. But we keep going and going. It looked like we might have war with North Korea. Now it doesn't. It looks like the petrodollar system is ending but who knows how long that will take to fully unwind. I expect that eventually all foreign trade will be done outside of the dollar. But that could take three years or more. Or could that happen faster than that? Is there some black swan event coming that's going to make everything happen much faster? And if so, what might it be?


----------



## bugoutbob

I don't know which makes me more uncomfortable. The thought that it could happen quickly or the thought that it could take to the time of my grandchildren to blow apart. The one thing I am reasonably certain of is the longer things are artificially held together the longer and harder the reset will be.


----------



## bigg777

Here's your answer to "How long before everything falls apart?", . . . . . no one knows.

This thread was started May 10, 2010, I haven't read every post but I'm certain several posters back in May 2010 postulated TEOTWAWKI was almost upon us. Whether or not WROL, SHTF, TEOTWAWKI, ARMAGEDDON, WWIII, etc. happens today, tomorrow or next year, take heart in the fact that YOU have made steps to provide for and protect you and your loved ones in the event of a catastrophic emergency.

There truly are no certainties besides death and taxes . . . and modern cultural bullshit invading our lives. Carry on, carry and have faith. In the end hypoxia gets every last one of us, go out and do things that take your breath away before God takes it away for good.


----------



## hiwall

For the last several weeks things have really calmed down. I see virtually no credible immediate threats right now. I find it almost scary that things ARE so calm.


----------



## Sentry18

hiwall said:


> For the last several weeks things have really calmed down. I see virtually no credible immediate threats right now. I find it almost scary that things ARE so calm.


Well, no credible immediate threats as long as you're not a 14-16 year old actor in Hollywood.


----------



## ssonb

Larry Burkett a Christian economist wrote back in the late 80s about the looming collapse of the way of life in the US, He did preface his writings with the warning that we not put end dates or a timeframe because the economy in the US is so strong and resilient that there will be downturns and crashes and it will recover UNTILL the faith of the working people in the American economy is crushed.


----------



## Flight1630

hiwall said:


> For the last several weeks things have really calmed down. I see virtually no credible immediate threats right now. I find it almost scary that things ARE so calm.


The calm before the storm?!?!?!


----------



## sewingcreations15

I think if you always think and know there is a possibility that things will fall apart tomorrow you are always prepared. I am an optimist but during my life (I am not that old) there has been some sort of financial crisis on average once every ten years and sometimes 2 and then food shortages etc quite regularly too due to normal climate cycles.


----------



## Idaholady

If Trump is reelected; then after his second term ends.....it will all fall apart...


----------



## musketjim

I prepare every day because bad guys prepare everyday and I'm afraid they will be better than me. Makes me work harder


----------



## FrankW

musketjim said:


> I prepare every day because bad guys prepare everyday and I'm afraid they will be better than me. Makes me work harder


Quoted for truth!


----------



## frankd4

neil-v1 said:


> I know nobody knows for sure but I was wondering what peoples opinions are to how much quality time we have left to prepare before the wheels really come off? Any opinions?


Soon as little rocket man nukes us.


----------



## capt.

I do not think the whole shebang will go anytime soon. The ingrained career flunky in the fed and state enforcement agencies will pick one person, one family, one farm, one town etc. This way the rest of us will not know or not respond in a large enough show of resistance. It will take more then a couple hundred armed people to show up. It also will depend on media ! cause, EXAMPLE: oh my the child molester has a bunch of guns. No one one will dash out to help, kinda like Waco, NOT true but they got away with it.. Not enough people showed in Nevada at the ranch. You get the idea. Now a total power out, monetary collapse, volcano, nuke, etc, that might do it . People are sheep , that is why we are and have sheepdogs to help out.


----------



## ILFE

I prepare for what I foresee, may (could) happen. It doesn't mean anything ever will. But, it doesn't mean anything won't, either.

In fact, I honestly hope we never have an issue. But, one simply never knows. It is much better to be prepared for something that doesn't ever happen, *than to not be* for something that does.


----------



## FrankW

Agreed.
It may easily turn out a problem for the next generation to experience.
All we can do is leave them some valuable items and skills to face the future with.


----------



## BillS

ssonb said:


> Larry Burkett a Christian economist wrote back in the late 80s about the looming collapse of the way of life in the US, He did preface his writings with the warning that we not put end dates or a timeframe because the economy in the US is so strong and resilient that there will be downturns and crashes and it will recover UNTILL the faith of the working people in the American economy is crushed.


I read Larry Burkett's book. He totally missed the fact that the Fed could and would print dollars to infinity. I'm amazed that the dollar still has value given the trillions that have been created out of thin air. I think it was Jim Willie who said that the widening deficits (like $2 trillion a year from Trump's infrastructure spending) will finally create a loss of confidence in the dollar. The rest of the world is getting out of the dollar as quickly as possible. At least those countries that don't have to worry about the US military coming down on them for abandoning the dollar. I think the end of the dollar is coming in the next year or two.


----------

