# Testing for 100% Alcohol Content?



## Javin (Aug 18, 2011)

K, so this one may sound weird, but here's a question to the science geeks out there...

I'm currently working on a theory for a long-term SHTF solution for producing concentrated antimicrobials in a SHTF situation. The problem is, my current solution requires a damned near 100% ethanol solution during one of the steps. Currently, I purchase it (very expensive by the way) from industrial suppliers. 

Now, understanding that you can, with the right equipment, distill alcohol to the 95% mark with MULTIPLE distillations (think "Everclear") I could probably suffice with that instead since even "100% pure ethyl alcohol" is still only 99.5% pure (I use the more expensive stuff for now to dial in my experiments) my problem always comes back to the same: How do you KNOW you have "pure" ethanol?

Anecdotally I know you can detect appropriate lye levels for making soap by simply floating a fresh egg in your solute - so does anyone have any similar ideas of a method for determining the purity of ethanol using something other than a refractometer or hydrometer? 

I need to be able to at least dial into the 90-95% range for my theory to work, and I need to be able to do it without equipment as fragile as the glass hydrometers. Even if I could do it with a refractometer alone, that'd be sufficient, but I can't seem to find any source to explain how a refractometer alone could test for that kind of purity of a distillate.

Think long-term here. 20 years after SHTF, how would you be able to determine the purity of alcohol? At 50% (100 proof) a weak flame can be lit on it, but I can't seem to dial it in further than that short of equipment that may not be available.

Thoughts?


----------



## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

Javin said:


> How do you KNOW you have "pure" ethanol?


Do you have, or have access to, a chemist's scale and a pipette? Some algebra and given volume of ethanol will tell your purity.


----------



## Javin (Aug 18, 2011)

Bobbb said:


> Do you have, or have access to, a chemist's scale and a pipette? Some algebra and given volume of ethanol will tell your purity.


If it's that simple, please share! Is the difference in weight vs. volume of water vs. alcohol that significant? That'd be the best answer ever if so. I'll just invest in a simple gram scale that uses actual weights.


----------



## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

Javin said:


> If it's that simple, please share! Is the difference in weight vs. volume of water vs. alcohol that significant? That'd be the best answer ever if so. I'll just invest in a simple gram scale that uses actual weights.


Here's a table. You decide how simple it is.

The density of ethanol is 78.934% of that of water.


----------



## swjohnsey (Jan 21, 2013)

The traditional way was that gunpowder would flash at 100 proof. Cut your distillate 50% and try 49% and try, etc.


----------



## Javin (Aug 18, 2011)

Bobbb said:


> Here's a table. You decide how simple it is.
> 
> The density of ethanol is 78.934% of that of water.


You sir, rock. It's sad what they don't teach us in college anymore. I'll be writing this down and committing it to memory.

Edit:
So if I'm reading this correctly, 1 liquid ounce of water should equate to 0.78934 liquid ounces of ethanol, correct?
Edit 2: Actually, I've got that inverted. Weight wise, 0.78934 ounces of water should weigh the same as 1 ounce of ethanol?


----------



## drfacefixer (Mar 8, 2013)

you worked in vaccine manufacturing and you can't figure this out? 

You have to do a fractionated distillation under benzene with the addition of a dessicant. This can also be accomplished via Kugelrohr distillation. Check it with UV vis spec for additional hydroxyl interactions.


----------



## Javin (Aug 18, 2011)

drfacefixer said:


> you worked in vaccine manufacturing and you can't figure this out?
> 
> You have to do a fractionated distillation under benzene with the addition of a dessicant. This can also be accomplished via Kugelrohr distillation. Check it with UV vis spec for additional hydroxyl interactions.


I didn't work "in vaccine manufacturing" I worked at NAMRU-3 (Naval Medical Research Unit #3, in Cairo, Egypt) doing vaccine research. But I'm not here to get into a pissing match with someone who wants to try to use big words to look smart. (Fractionated distillation translates into: Distilling at different boiling temperatures to extract specific compounds). The interactions between surface hydroxyl groups and the thermodynamics of benzine adsorption are precisely what I am trying to AVOID in finding a far, far more simplified and rudimentary method. A method which Bobbb as graciously and succinctly provided.

Why the vitriol?

Edit: A dessicant is unnecessary for my purposes, as stated in my initial post. Without a dessicant you can can get to the 95% mark, and with a dessicant you can increase your purity by up to 4.7%. For my purposes, this is not necessary. Thank you to Bobbb for providing the correct answer.


----------



## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Specific gravity is used all the time in making alcohol (beer, wine, etc) but you can get an alcohol meter specifically for distilled spirits that is cheap and accurate, as long as temp is adjusted for.
http://store.homebrewheaven.com/alcoholometer-p111.aspx


----------



## Javin (Aug 18, 2011)

cowboyhermit said:


> Specific gravity is used all the time in making alcohol (beer, wine, etc) but you can get an alcohol meter specifically for distilled spirits that is cheap and accurate, as long as temp is adjusted for.
> http://store.homebrewheaven.com/alcoholometer-p111.aspx


Yessir, but this is still a glass hydrometer. I'm concerned about the fragility of these (I can't even keep a cell phone alive for more than a few months it seems).

Bobbb seems to have offered the best solution yet. With a very simple scale (and the scale could really be made out of anything...) and some math, you could determine the alcohol content of a distillate with even the most basic equipment.

Note to Bobbb: I've just put a bid on E-Bay for an old-school gram scale. Thanks for the tip! Can't wait to test the math against my current stock!


----------



## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

Javin said:


> So if I'm reading this correctly, 1 liquid ounce of water should equate to 0.78934 liquid ounces of ethanol, correct?
> Edit 2: Actually, I've got that inverted. Weight wise, 0.78934 ounces of water should weigh the same as 1 ounce of ethanol?


What kind of volumes are your going to be working with?

How precise does your calculation have to be?

One liter of water weighs 1,000 grams.
One liter of ethanol weighs 789.34 grams.
One liter of ethanol at 90% purity weighs 817.97 grams.
One liter of ethanol at 91% purity weighs 815.29 grams.

So when your volume is one liter, that 1% difference in purity amounts to 2.68 grams.

If you buy a cheap scale then you're going to need to be using large volumes in order to discern purity.

A US fluid ounce of water weighs 29.5735296 grams.
A US fluid ounce of ethanol weighs 23.3436 grams.
A US fluid ounce of ethanol at 90% purity weighs 24.1903 grams.
A US fluid ounce of ethanol at 91% purity weighs 24.1110 grams.

Do you see the problem that emerges? If your sample volume is too small, then your gram scale is going to have a huge error range in determining purity.


----------



## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Javin said:


> K, so this one may sound weird, but here's a question to the science geeks out there...
> 
> I'm currently working on a theory for a long-term SHTF solution for producing concentrated antimicrobials in a SHTF situation. The problem is, my current solution requires a damned near 100% ethanol solution during one of the steps. Currently, I purchase it (very expensive by the way) from industrial suppliers.
> 
> ...


Buy a brewer's proof test kit. should get you within 5-10 points.


----------



## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

Javin said:


> Note to Bobbb: I've just put a bid on E-Bay for an old-school gram scale. Thanks for the tip! Can't wait to test the math against my current stock!


Your next step is to buy a volumetric pipette of a suitable size and unfortunately these are made of glass. The volume calculation here is just as critical as weight.


----------



## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Lol, I have a hydrometer that must be 30years old, never broke one either (with MUCH use) but I know what you are saying. I hate plastic so most of my precision instruments are glass or metal.
You really do have to correct for temperature as well, or get your sample exactly the same your chart.
Another factor is methanol and other impurities that volume/mass won't test for.


----------



## Javin (Aug 18, 2011)

Bobbb said:


> What kind of volumes are your going to be working with?
> 
> How precise does your calculation have to be?
> 
> ...


All very good points. The scale I bought is a gram scale (with a gram weight for calibration) that can weigh up to 111 grams. This would give me less than 4 ounces in a test, but should allow my accuracy to be +/- 3% all things considered. In a SHTF scenario, I think this should be sufficient for my purposes. Really, a "close enough" approach would work. I only go for the super-pure stuff now to have some control in the tests. I figure so long as the ethanol content is over 90% it should work well enough to break down resins and fats into at least a 30% tincture, which is the ultimate goal.



cowboyhermit said:


> Another factor is methanol and other impurities that volume/mass won't test for.


For THIS purpose, the methanol shouldn't be a huge problem. The other impurities should come out with the multiple distillations. The methanol with a SG close to that of alcohol won't throw off my numbers too much, and once the tincture is made, I intend to evaporate off all ethanol anyway, which will also get rid of the methanol.

But all of this said, I have often wondered just how much methanol gets produced when you create a batch a "moonshine". I've heard the old-timers used to pour off their first batch to get rid of it, but how much methanol does that REALLY remove from the moonshine? I know the stuff's super bad news, with as little as a third of an ounce making you blind, and a full ounce being sure to kill you. And I've definitely heard of moonshine making people go blind, so that makes me wonder, just how well CAN you distill methanol off in a home distillery without super accurate equipment?


----------



## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

It depends on what you are fermenting, if you are working with grain or sugar and doing things properly amounts will be minimal, methanol is more of an issue with pectins.
It is also a percentage thing, even if there are really small amounts if you have a large volume, say 10 or 20 gallons, that first couple ounces can have a lot of nasties. Methanol, acetone, ethyl acetate all of which evaporate before ethanol, though the acetate is close.
Anybody with a still is actually doing fractional distillation they are just discarding the first and last products.
You don't have to discard them of course, they burn well and can be used for other purposes.


----------



## drfacefixer (Mar 8, 2013)

Seriously, 
What pissed you off about my comment? I was surprized. I just gave you the method that I use for getting anhydrous diether ether for my grignard rxns. It would work fine drying ethanol too. 

I must have misread your question. You first said that you were buying lab grade and then said you could settle for much less near the end. It was just confusing what you were asking. I am not a herbalist, but I don't know of too many tinctures that requires such a high purity of ethanol other than some exaction methods for terpenes. We would love for you to share!


----------



## Javin (Aug 18, 2011)

cowboyhermit said:


> It depends on what you are fermenting, if you are working with grain or sugar and doing things properly amounts will be minimal, methanol is more of an issue with pectins.
> It is also a percentage thing, even if there are really small amounts if you have a large volume, say 10 or 20 gallons, that first couple ounces can have a lot of nasties. Methanol, acetone, ethyl acetate all of which evaporate before ethanol, though the acetate is close.
> Anybody with a still is actually doing fractional distillation they are just discarding the first and last products.
> You don't have to discard them of course, they burn well and can be used for other purposes.


Interesting stuff! Is the last batch tossed off because of water content, or additional nasties?



drfacefixer said:


> I am not a herbalist, but I don't know of too many tinctures that requires such a high purity of ethanol other than some exaction methods for terpenes. We would love for you to share!


Here's the basics:

In a SHTF situation, bee propolis could potentially be used as a "cure-all" for the sick. It's been well documented that bee propolis has very strong antimicrobial effects for everything from the common flu to HIV. Honey (which has the same components as propolis but in smaller amounts) has actually been used to cure MRSA (bacteria) with a 100% efficacy (though to be fair, the sample size was just 7 patients). Other studies have shown it to significantly reduce the damage done from radiation exposure, and yet others have shown it to halt the growth of tumors. Now, obviously, how much of this will stand up to scientific scrutiny is yet to be proven, but in the many tests done, it's a pretty impressive substance.

This barely scratches the surface:
http://utahcountybeekeepers.com/Other Files/Information Articles/Anti HIV Propolis Paper.pdf
http://www.intmedpress.com/serveFile.cfm?sUID=c313f764-5551-40b3-8b47-7d47dd754367
http://www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/herb/propolis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21303315
http://www.irpa.net/irpa10/cdrom/00059.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...ez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

This said, all tests have either been done via an ethyl tincture in vitro, or a water tincture (considerably weaker) injected into the body cavities of mice (IP injection).

The problem in humans is that propolis is a resin concoction made by the bees, and getting it into the human bloodstream could prove to be difficult. Water tinctures (made for injection) don't pull off but a fraction of the components in propolis, and ethyl tinctures are not exactly fun to have injected. (Not to mention that in a SHTF situation injections probably aren't the smartest way to go.) The ethyl tincture is possibly a bit more fun to drink, but the dosages would get into a "dangerous" level:

When humans eat propolis raw, a very small amount of it actually gets digested, while the rest is passed through the digestive system. I'm trying to maximize the amount of propolis that a person can get into their bloodstream (assuming it can get into your bloodstream at all). Basically, for it to be fully effective you need about a 66.6ug/mL dosage. This works out very roughly to about 4.5 grams of propolis for a 150 lb. person. And that's with 100% absorption.

When making a maximum of a 3:7 ratio propolis to ethyl tincture, the alcohol will break down all parts of the resin into solution. (Any higher than that and the propolis will not fully break down. Seems around 30-40% is the saturation point.) If you add much water to the tincture, the propolis will "clump" going back to its resin form. Same thing happens as you evaporate off the ethanol. The propolis clumps back together. So to keep the propolis in a solute, your tincture would have to be about 70% near pure alcohol.

So IF you could get 100% absorption, you'd have to take a half ounce shot of the stuff straight, and quite frankly, I have NO idea what would happen when that hits your stomach.

So the long and the short of it is that my goal is to experiment with a method of significantly increasing the absorption rate of propolis without having to take shots of alcohol. By creating a tincture of propolis with very, very low water content, adding this to a natural saturated fat (resin is fat soluble) then evaporating off all of the alcohol, in theory, the resin should "adhere" to the fat molecules allowing the body to far more readily absorb the propolis.

We know propolis works in vitro, and we know it works topically, and even to a lesser degree it works in mice with IP injection. The question is whether it would work internally on humans, particularly orally where it has to get past the acids of the digestive system. So how would I test this?

Currently I have an H. Pylori infection that has given me a pretty severe, though convenient, esophogeal ulcer. I've already tried consuming the raw propolis with no appreciable effect, so next is to take the appropriate "dose" of it mixed with fat. (Sounds delicious, no? Think grease that tastes like old grass and dirt.) If this doesn't work, then I guess I'll have to use the antibiotics the doctor gave me.  But if it DOES work, it'll give me - and everyone else - another emergency last-ditch go-to should all antibiotics be unavailable. (I do have my stash of about 100 doses - roughly 10 treatments - of antibiotics per person, but even that's a fairly limited supply.)

So yeah. That's the long and the short of it.


----------



## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

The first stuff out is easy, toss it. 
The "tails" or the last bits are more complicated, there shouldn't be much propanol but if there is it comes after the ethanol but before the water, there can also be oils and flavours that you may or may not want, but this all comes mixed in with more and more water. The percentage of alcohol to water slowly decreases.
Obviously the more times through the still, the more you can separate things out, some guys just catch everything from the first run and cut off when the output is below a certain %alch.
Imo though it is best to use many containers, stuff from the middle is good to go as is, heads and tails can be run through again to better separate things out.

Good luck with your project, I keep bees myself and think they have tons to offer, not sure about propolis but am glad people are looking into it. Pollen and royal jelly have some interesting properties as well.


----------



## drfacefixer (Mar 8, 2013)

Interesting stuff, 

I've read some about propolis in recent head and neck lit as well as for mrsa. There was a recent article about an African infectious disease doc at Hopkins(I think) who is resorting to bush practices for cases that are unresponsive. Debridement is alway necessary of mrsa, but then he packs the wound with sugar. It acts as a Desiccant and kills the infection. Manuka honey has also been studied on wounds. With the manuka, there seems to be an additional mechanisms that halt the life cycle of the bacteria by inhibiting certain protein synthesis. It seems to be unique to manuka though. 

I'm interested enough to read more now. I will add a caution to not inject ethanol IV at a strength greater than 10%. I use it for sclerosing venous malformations. It's one of the much potent sclerosing agents used. That Can be confusing though because its also being used more frequently as iv locks on central lines and catheters at lower concentrations. These are high flow lines though and the contact time on tissue is limited.


----------



## Javin (Aug 18, 2011)

drfacefixer said:


> Interesting stuff,
> 
> I've read some about propolis in recent head and neck lit as well as for mrsa. There was a recent article about an African infectious disease doc at Hopkins(I think) who is resorting to bush practices for cases that are unresponsive. Debridement is alway necessary of mrsa, but then he packs the wound with sugar. It acts as a Desiccant and kills the infection. Manuka honey has also been studied on wounds. With the manuka, there seems to be an additional mechanisms that halt the life cycle of the bacteria by inhibiting certain protein synthesis. It seems to be unique to manuka though.


One of the interesting things is about the HIV study was that they tried propolis from multiple different farms in the U.S., as well as from multiple sites around the world. They found the results to be nearly identical (except for propolis from Rio de Janero which for some reason was much weaker.)



drfacefixer said:


> I'm interested enough to read more now. I will add a caution to not inject ethanol IV at a strength greater than 10%. I use it for sclerosing venous malformations. It's one of the much potent sclerosing agents used. That Can be confusing though because its also being used more frequently as iv locks on central lines and catheters at lower concentrations. These are high flow lines though and the contact time on tissue is limited.


I'm scared enough of needles in general that this isn't a risk.


----------



## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

cowboyhermit said:


> The first stuff out is easy, toss it.


I jut put it in a bottle labeled "cleaning solvent". Smells mostly like alcohol, but with a whiff of other things. I never once thought about the existence of acetone being possible.


----------



## drfacefixer (Mar 8, 2013)

LincTex said:


> I jut put it in a bottle labeled "cleaning solvent". Smells mostly like alcohol, but with a whiff of other things. I never once thought about the existence of acetone being possible.


you can also save it for use it for de- icing if you live in the cold. The first of the fractionated compounds have the lower vapor pressure and the lower freezing points, so it does wonders melting ice.


----------



## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Yup, makes good windshield washer fluid additive but watch your paint

LincTex, I think that acetone/acetate are typically a very small percentage so most people just lump everything together with the methanol and in practice this works fine. I wonder though, if a person did a run entirely of foreshots how well these different components could be separated? I guess they aren't really the kind of chemicals that will be in demand in a shtf scenario though:dunno: mixed together it certainly makes a good solvent or fuel for burning though.


----------



## Javin (Aug 18, 2011)

cowboyhermit said:


> Yup, makes good windshield washer fluid additive but watch your paint
> 
> LincTex, I think that acetone/acetate are typically a very small percentage so most people just lump everything together with the methanol and in practice this works fine. I wonder though, if a person did a run entirely of foreshots how well these different components could be separated? I guess they aren't really the kind of chemicals that will be in demand in a shtf scenario though:dunno: mixed together it certainly makes a good solvent or fuel for burning though.


This is a perfect opportunity for me to plug my camp stove design:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Pocket-Sized-Camp-Stove-The-Improved-quotPenny-/


----------



## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

One of the best instructables I have seen for sure:2thumb:


----------



## drfacefixer (Mar 8, 2013)

cowboyhermit said:


> Yup, makes good windshield washer fluid additive but watch your paint
> 
> LincTex, I think that acetone/acetate are typically a very small percentage so most people just lump everything together with the methanol and in practice this works fine. I wonder though, if a person did a run entirely of foreshots how well these different components could be separated? I guess they aren't really the kind of chemicals that will be in demand in a shtf scenario though:dunno: mixed together it certainly makes a good solvent or fuel for burning though.


you could further separate it out through a longer column or multicolumn distillation, but since I have no clue how much of any of those organic volitiles are produced, i wouldnt really know if the yeild is worth it.


----------

