# Drugs verus Guns, WTF



## bahramthered (Mar 10, 2012)

I am seriously curious about the mindset. Why on earth do so many people on this forum think they should have unlimited gun rights and are so against drugs?


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## tac803 (Nov 21, 2010)

Guns are legal and drugs arent??


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## rider1k (Apr 13, 2012)

You must be a drug addict to even ask that question. When a criminal breaks into your house and rapes your wife or daughter and beats the hell out of you and then steals all your things, what will you do without a gun? Throw your bag of pot or cocaine at him and hope it disables him long enough for you save your family?


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

In my experience, it boils down to religion and culture. The pro gun anti drug group tends to be pretty religious, and culturalydoesnt know any responsible drug users. They know only of the potheads living in moms basement. 

On the other side is the pro drug anti gun crowd. Thief life experience says gun owners are either fat ignorant bigots, or lunatic criminals.

Personally, I've experienced both, and I think we should error on the side of liberty.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

I think both should be used responsibly and misuse should negate that right, Our first president George Washington smoked pot for his ulcers and tooth pain before he got those wood dentures which probably hurt like hell too.

I have yet to see a pot smoker get violent after just regular weed.chemed up stuff, yeah.but not naturally grown.the godz put it here for a reason and really, in the end alcohol wrecks your life worse.I could go to work after a few bong hits the night before,not so after a 5th of tequila.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

Guns are a tool. They have no intrinsic moral value. Drugs have bad effects on people so they're bad.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

BillS said:


> Guns are a tool. They have no intrinsic moral value. Drugs have bad effects on people so they're bad.


this may be the dumbest thing ive ever seen posted here. have you ever seen a gunshot wound? its a pretty bad effect.

drugs, like guns, are inanimate objects. the outcome depends on the user. saying the gubmint should regulate one and not the other shows a profound lack of understanding o the fundamental concept of liberty.


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## bahramthered (Mar 10, 2012)

FatTire said:


> this may be the dumbest thing ive ever seen posted here. have you ever seen a gunshot wound? its a pretty bad effect.
> 
> drugs, like guns, are inanimate objects. the outcome depends on the user. saying the gubmint should regulate one and not the other shows a profound lack of understanding o the fundamental concept of liberty.


No flattire I think some of other ones are dumber.


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## bahramthered (Mar 10, 2012)

tac803 said:


> Guns are legal and drugs arent??


No, aspirin is legal. BB guns are legal.

People on this board object to assault rifles and certain ammos being illegal yet are all for outlawing bath salts and against other drugs.


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## bahramthered (Mar 10, 2012)

rider1k said:


> You must be a drug addict to even ask that question. When a criminal breaks into your house and rapes your wife or daughter and beats the hell out of you and then steals all your things, what will you do without a gun? Throw your bag of pot or cocaine at him and hope it disables him long enough for you save your family?


I'll give that the "Dumbest Post Ever" award. Seriously. Does pot or cocaine magically melt guns away? I couldn't keep a colt 45 and a baggie in the same drawer? And if I am ever invaded I have to use the baggies as a weapon? It somehow melted every weapon, every bunt object in my home? Even the flimsy keyboard I'm typing on would be a better weapon.

An intelligent person would make the claim that drugs might degrade your skills at using said weapons, which would be dangerous.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

bahramthered said:


> I'll give that the "Dumbest Post Ever" award. Seriously. Does pot or cocaine magically melt guns away? I couldn't keep a colt 45 and a baggie in the same drawer? And if I am ever invaded I have to use the baggies as a weapon? It somehow melted every weapon, every bunt object in my home? Even the flimsy keyboard I'm typing on would be a better weapon.
> 
> An intelligent person would make the claim that drugs might degrade your skills at using said weapons, which would be dangerous.


Well to keep my temper and mouth from getting me in trouble again, I will be ading your insulting ass to my ignore list.


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## tac803 (Nov 21, 2010)

bahramthered said:


> No, aspirin is legal. BB guns are legal.
> 
> People on this board object to assault rifles and certain ammos being illegal yet are all for outlawing bath salts and against other drugs.


I apologize for the confusion. I had assumed that you were referring to recreational pharmaceuticals, illicit drugs, marijuana and the like. Not over the counter medications or prescription medications that have a legitimate use. I'm out of this argument too. Good luck.


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## Jack Aubrey (May 24, 2009)

My youngest brother was strung out bad on drugs and alcohol. He had tried to quit, gone through rehab many times, but it seemed he was a moth drawn to a flame. He followed the family tradition , and joined the Army. Unfortunately, he found drugs to be available there too. He was given an honorable discharge w/ an RE4 on his DD214. 
He drifted for awhile, before deciding to become a professional chef. He was a natural. He landed a position at the Petroleum Club in Dallas. He so impressed the management, they were going to send him to France and pay for his education.He had kicked all but pot and alcohol, but never used while at work. A random invasion of privacy got him fired and dashed his hopes.
I was sleeping in my bedroom when I was awakened by a loud noise. I went across the hall to see if my brother had heard that noise. I found him with his head blown half off.There is a good reason drugs are regulated. Unchecked, drugs, and yes, alcohol is a drug too, destroy lives and destroy families. My brother was 23 at the time. He would have been 44 this August. JA


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## bahramthered (Mar 10, 2012)

oldvet said:


> Well to keep my temper and mouth from getting me in trouble again, I will be ading your insulting ass to my ignore list.


Dam I must have held back too little. I had way better lines for your false analogy of rape/self defense and the drug issue. And not to mention you accused me of being as drug user for daring to ask the question. Hypocrite much?


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

FatTire said:


> this may be the dumbest thing ive ever seen posted here. have you ever seen a gunshot wound? its a pretty bad effect.
> 
> drugs, like guns, are inanimate objects. the outcome depends on the user. saying the gubmint should regulate one and not the other shows a profound lack of understanding o the fundamental concept of liberty.


What sounds dumb to you is an indicator of your intelligence as well.

I repeat guns are a tool. Anyone using one needs to use it properly. Have you ever had a burn? Burns can kill you. Does that mean fire is bad? Do we need a three-day waiting period for matches? Or blow torches?

Drugs are inanimate objects with an evil purpose. They should remain illegal.

Guns were unregulated for the first 150 years of our country's existence. You obviously don't understand liberty or you wouldn't say that I don't understand it.

http://cap-n-ball.com/fathers.htm

"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence &#8230; from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable &#8230; the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
George Washington

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
Richard Henry Lee
American Statesman, 1788

"The great object is that every man be armed." and "Everyone who is able may have a gun."
Patrick Henry
American Patriot

"Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not."
Thomas Jefferson
Third President of the United States

"The best we can help for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
Alexander Hamilton
The Federalist Papers at 184-8


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## bahramthered (Mar 10, 2012)

Jack Aubrey said:


> My youngest brother was strung out bad on drugs and alcohol. He had tried to quit, gone through rehab many times, but it seemed he was a moth drawn to a flame. He followed the family tradition , and joined the Army. Unfortunately, he found drugs to be available there too. He was given an honorable discharge w/ an RE4 on his DD214.
> He drifted for awhile, before deciding to become a professional chef. He was a natural. He landed a position at the Petroleum Club in Dallas. He so impressed the management, they were going to send him to France and pay for his education.He had kicked all but pot and alcohol, but never used while at work. A random invasion of privacy got him fired and dashed his hopes.
> I was sleeping in my bedroom when I was awakened by a loud noise. I went across the hall to see if my brother had heard that noise. I found him with his head blown half off.
> There is a good reason drugs are regulated. Unchecked, drugs, and yes, alcohol is a drug too, destroy lives and destroy families. My brother was 23 at the time. He would have been 44 this August. JA


I'm sorry for your brother but how do you square that with your signature? Plus that would seem to be an argument for both gun control and alcohol/drug regulation.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

bahramthered said:


> Dam I must have held back too little. I had way better lines for your false analogy of rape/self defense and the drug issue. And not to mention you accused me of being as drug user for daring to ask the question. Hypocrite much?


A person is only a hypocrite if they do the very thing they criticize you for.

If you can't discuss something intelligently you should be banned.

You're the one who started this stupid thread in the first place. It's up to you to offer an intelligent defense for your beliefs instead of attacking those who disagree with you. But I'm past caring about why you believe the way you do.


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## bahramthered (Mar 10, 2012)

BillS said:


> What sounds dumb to you is an indicator of your intelligence as well.
> 
> I repeat guns are a tool. Anyone using one needs to use it properly. Have you ever had a burn? Burns can kill you. Does that mean fire is bad? Do we need a three-day waiting period for matches? Or blow torches?
> 
> ...


I think your the dumb one.

The founders wrote those words 200 years ago in a very differnt world. In a world long before cruise missile, stealth bombers, and tanks. Never mind who regulates what guns can even be sold.

I agree guns are tools. Their purpose is to kill. I object to who should be allowed to use them.


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## rider1k (Apr 13, 2012)

bahramthered said:


> I'll give that the "Dumbest Post Ever" award. Seriously. Does pot or cocaine magically melt guns away? I couldn't keep a colt 45 and a baggie in the same drawer? And if I am ever invaded I have to use the baggies as a weapon? It somehow melted every weapon, every bunt object in my home? Even the flimsy keyboard I'm typing on would be a better weapon.
> 
> An intelligent person would make the claim that drugs might degrade your skills at using said weapons, which would be dangerous.


My reply to your post wasn't directed at you personally. It was a statement of my opinion. I firmly believe in the right to keep and bear arms for defense as well as sport. I do not however believe I sitting around high on drugs or alcohol. I hesitate to even respond to your reply because I'm sure you will just turn it around and try to belittle even more, as I see you are the type that has to try and flex your so called"Superior Intellect". Happy Sunday .


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

rider1k said:


> My reply to your post wasn't directed at you personally. It was a statement of my opinion. I firmly believe in the right to keep and bear arms for defense as well as sport. I do not however believe I sitting around high on drugs or alcohol. I hesitate to even respond to your reply because I'm sure you will just turn it around and try to belittle even more, as I see you are the type that has to try and flex your so called"Superior Intellect". Happy Sunday .


It isn't about sitting around getting high bud. It's about wether or not you think you should make that choice, or the state should. If you truly believe in liberty, the answer is obvious.

You shouldn't be able able to tell me I can't smoke pot, and I shouldn't be able to tell you can't own guns.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

bahramthered said:


> I think your the dumb one.
> 
> The founders wrote those words 200 years ago in a very differnt world. In a world long before cruise missile, stealth bombers, and tanks. Never mind who regulates what guns can even be sold.
> 
> I agree guns are tools. Their purpose is to kill. I object to who should be allowed to use them.


Why would current advances in technology affect our right to own guns?
The concept of the bill of rights was created in a very different world too.


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## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

Drugs sole purpose is to distort your mind. Sure smoking weed helps with pain but like all drugs they distort how your mind naturally operates. Aspirin is nothing like weed or coke as it shuts down pain receptors in your nerves alleviating pain, not altering your perception of reality. To compare them is like apples and oranges. Alcohol also has a similar effect. Do I think smoking a joint is horrid? No, but the problem with drugs is most people really like the effect so they use more and more to disastrous ends. Coke is even worse and don't even get me started on crack or meth. So whether you like coke or whatever be cautious because its way too easy to go overboard as every meeting gruop can attest to. 
So now guns. Guns ARE tools. Like with a hammer you can build a house or bash a head in, the choice is yours. Guns have only one purpose though and that is to send lead out at high high speed. Whether you destroy cans or people is up to the user. There is no comparison between the two.


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## rider1k (Apr 13, 2012)

FatTire said:


> It isn't about sitting around getting high bud. It's about wether or not you think you should make that choice, or the state should. If you truly believe in liberty, the answer is obvious.
> 
> You shouldn't be able able to tell me I can't smoke pot, and I shouldn't be able to tell you can't own guns.


You are right. And I wouldn't judge you either way. People should have the right to own guns or do drugs, or have a drink, marry same sex, believe in whatever God they choose or don't, make their own decisions.... The list goes on. I am not a name caller or a belittler, and would never question your Intelect just because I don't agree with your opinion. It's yours and you have a right to it.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

FatTire said:


> It isn't about sitting around getting high bud. It's about wether or not you think you should make that choice, or the state should. If you truly believe in liberty, the answer is obvious.
> 
> You shouldn't be able able to tell me I can't smoke pot, and I shouldn't be able to tell you can't own guns.


The right to own guns is part of our history and our constitution. The "right" to smoke pot is not part of our history or our constitution. The founding fathers didn't talk about it or consider putting an amendment in the constitution about it.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

"Guns were unregulated for the first 150 years of our country's existence. "
Same with drugs.
Guns and drugs are not the same though.
I think something has to change with the drug situation. Many say to legalize drugs and they may be right. They certainly can make a pretty good argument for doing so. Also there is many compelling arguments for not legalizing drugs. Look just on this forum we can not even discuss this in a civil manner. We have spent billions of dollars and lives dealing with drugs. And it is worse now than ever before. Legalizing drugs goes against my own personal morals but that does not mean that I can not look at this objectionably. I would like to see people just list their reasons for or against without the name calling or other crap. If you have an argument either way state it in a civil fashion.


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## Jack Aubrey (May 24, 2009)

People must be governed. There has to be order,not anarchy. Finding the balance between fascism and anarchy is an interesting exercise. My brother also seemed to attract DWI's. It got so bad in the months prior to his suicide, that he wrecked his truck. It was fixed, but I honestly believe, had he lived, he would have eventually killed someone, or a family, while driving impaired. 

Maybe that is the litmus test. I have owned guns most of my life. I have never harmed or killed anyone with any of them. I take my responsibility very seriously.I also have not had a fender bender in over 20 years. I take my driving responsibility seriously as well.Owning a firearm doesn't impair judgement,and endanger the public.

Firearm ownership does not lead to a physical addiction, or financial difficulties, or broken families. Misuse of firearms can, to be sure, but not the responsible ownership. In my experience, drug and alcohol abuse specifically impair responsible judgement. It also promotes criminal behaviour, whereas firearms discourages bad behaviour.

As for my signature, I can see why you would question it in light of my position on this subject. I believe "Liberty" is not a license for irrationality or irresponsibility. I think liberty is balancing individual freedoms against the public good. Sometimes we all have to sacrifice some of our freedoms in order to live in an ordered society. I do think we labour under an overabundance of redundant , and pointless legislation though. JA


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## PopPop (Sep 14, 2010)

bahramthered said:


> I think your the dumb one.
> 
> The founders wrote those words 200 years ago in a very differnt world. In a world long before cruise missile, stealth bombers, and tanks. Never mind who regulates what guns can even be sold.
> 
> I agree guns are tools. Their purpose is to kill. I object to who should be allowed to use them.


This post and your sigline tell me all I need to know. Anyone who believes that we were ever a Democracy or thinks we ever should be is a Moron. When that person also believes in Gun Control, he is simply a danerous Moron. I do not know why you are on this forum, its benefits will forever escape you.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

BillS said:


> The right to own guns is part of our history and our constitution. The "right" to smoke pot is not part of our history or our constitution. The founding fathers didn't talk about it or consider putting an amendment in the constitution about it.


are you missing the point on purpose, or is it genetic?


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

Pot is for 16yr old kids angry at their Dads and are usually harmless. Hard drug users usually euthanize themselves. This process is helped along by our right to bear arms. Always err on the side of liberty because things have a way of working themselves out without outside intervention. Christians hard core pro stiff drug laws confuse me. The goal is to live by the example set by Christ, correct? Didnt God and Christ give man free will and didnt Christ die for our sins in advance? Seems to me interfering with free will is thinking we know better than the example set by God himself. I dont understand. Protect you and yours and let God judge.


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## bahramthered (Mar 10, 2012)

BillS said:


> A person is only a hypocrite if they do the very thing they criticize you for.
> 
> If you can't discuss something intelligently you should be banned.
> 
> You're the one who started this stupid thread in the first place. It's up to you to offer an intelligent defense for your beliefs instead of attacking those who disagree with you. But I'm past caring about why you believe the way you do.


Well BillS I didn't state my beliefs on the OP. I asked a question. Two people made false analogies. I challenged. I've find real learning is debating things. Accused of being a drug user or confronted with the logic "guns are legal" I attacked their position and both ran away. Apparently one can't understand an analogy and one is scared of debate.

I think I started an Intelligent thread. Here's my logic;

1.I see very independent and libertarian view here a lot on this board.

2: On this board I noticed a very anti regulation/government interference idea in regards to guns.

3: I On this board I noticed a very anti drug call for government banning and intervention.

$ I wondered why you should be able to have 50 cal gun and not pot?

I just asked for why the difference? Here I sit waiting for responses. You insult me or show rampant stupidity well I'll insult you. But an intelligent response get respect.

BillS I owe you an insult for calling my thread stupid.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

"Firearm ownership does not lead to a physical addiction, or financial difficulties, or broken families. Misuse of firearms can, to be sure, but not the responsible ownership. In my experience, drug and alcohol abuse specifically impair responsible judgement. It also promotes criminal behavior"

I would think responsible drug use would harm no one. Everyone on here I'm sure has used some kind of drug at some point in their lives. I doubt that that drug use led to any deaths. I certainly think it is much harder for many people to use drugs(including alcohol) responsibly compared to firearms. Firearms seldom cloud your judgement. Firearms don't make you less able to drive. I don't think firearms will lead to child abuse(most child abuse is drug/alcohol related). But think of all the money we would save if we legalized drugs. If we taxed drugs we could have rehab centers everywhere to help those that abused the drugs. If we legalized drugs without a doubt many would die but many are dying now. I don't think Congress will ever hold a vote on this subject so it is really a moot point.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

mojo4 said:


> Drugs sole purpose is to distort your mind. Sure smoking weed helps with pain but like all drugs they distort how your mind naturally operates. Aspirin is nothing like weed or coke as it shuts down pain receptors in your nerves alleviating pain, not altering your perception of reality. To compare them is like apples and oranges. Alcohol also has a similar effect. Do I think smoking a joint is horrid? No, but the problem with drugs is most people really like the effect so they use more and more to disastrous ends. Coke is even worse and don't even get me started on crack or meth. So whether you like coke or whatever be cautious because its way too easy to go overboard as every meeting gruop can attest to.
> So now guns. Guns ARE tools. Like with a hammer you can build a house or bash a head in, the choice is yours. Guns have only one purpose though and that is to send lead out at high high speed. Whether you destroy cans or people is up to the user. There is no comparison between the two.


to say a drugs sole purpose is to distort your mind, is tantamount to saying that a guns sole purpose is to kill. the latter is the basis upon with most anti gun people vote. the former is basis upon which most anti drug people vote.

the point here isnt wether or not guns or drugs are evil, the point is, who gets to decide. do you get to decide for yourself wether or not to get high, or to own a gun, or do you need the nanny state to make that descision for you?


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## alwaysready (May 16, 2012)

I never heard of a child being born defective due to gun use, can't say the same about drugs/alcohol.


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## Jack Aubrey (May 24, 2009)

hiwall said:


> I would think responsible drug use would harm no one.... But think of all the money we would save if we legalized drugs. If we taxed drugs we could have rehab centers everywhere to help those that abused the drugs. If we legalized drugs without a doubt many would die but many are dying now.


I understand your point, but I have seen very little in the way of "responsible" drug/alcohol use . I don't consider adolescent experimentation as responsible. From what I have seen, anything that persists beyond that experimental stage is very irresponsible. Yes, we could legalize drugs, and tax them, and because of our policrats inability to exercise fiscal responsibility, nothing would change.

Many would die? We lost 10,288 people to drunk drivers in 2010. Another 345,000 were injured by drunk drivers. Real people. Little children, women, men. Maimed, crippled for life, in pain for the rest of their lives, all because of an irresponsible, self centered drunk.

Every one of those deaths and injuries were preventable. So we legalize drugs , and now we have stoners, and people driving on cocaine, tripping on acid or whatever else is out there. At what point does the victim's right to "*LIFE, LIBERTY , AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS"*finally supersede the drunk or stoner's right to catch a buzz? Please don't take this as a personal attack, it's not meant that way.JA


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

alwaysready said:


> I never heard of a child being born defective due to gun use, can't say the same about drugs/alcohol.


the point here is USE. yes its tragic whn pregnant women choose to get high, or worse, abort. but it is a far larger tragedy to decide that the state should make that choice, and not the individual.

simillarly, it is a tragedy when a child shoots themselves, or a friend, with a gun th parent chose to own. however it is a far larger tragedy to say that the state the make the choice of ownership for them.

and this is the point, we can, most of us, agree as to what are good and bad decisions, but can we allow othrs to make that choice for themselves or are we dependant upon governemnt to make those choices for us?

again, if you believe in liberty, the answer is obvious


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## Jack Aubrey (May 24, 2009)

No disrespect intended, I'm having difficulty equating the "Right to Bear Arms," with the "right" to catch a buzz, and destroy innocent lives. Since we have a Representative Republican form of government, it would seem that society at large, is more on the side of responsible gun ownership than they are on the side of losers who want to live in a stupor.
If people want to be comatose, living in a permanent acid trip, I really don't care. As long as society doesn't have to pick up their tab either in health care or blood and carnage. JA


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## PopPop (Sep 14, 2010)

Jack Aubrey said:


> No disrespect intended, I'm having difficulty equating the "Right to Bear Arms," with the "right" to catch a buzz, and destroy innocent lives. Since we have a Representative Republican form of government, it would seem that society at large, is more on the side of responsible gun ownership than they are on the side of losers who want to live in a stupor.
> If people want to be comatose, living in a permanent acid trip, I really don't care. As long as society doesn't have to pick up their tab either in health care or blood and carnage. JA


This^ and prohibition has never worked.


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## Possumfam (Apr 19, 2011)

bahramthered said:


> I am seriously curious about the mindset. Why on earth do so many people on this forum think they should have unlimited gun rights and are so against drugs?


This thread has gotten kind of ugly, and I don't have a thick skin. Although I may disagree, I prefer to be polite and would expect adults to do the same. I couldn't decide whether to post or not, but, in a nutshell, I guess this might explain my mindset. I'm the oldest of four. My father was a life long gun owner who didn't hunt and never really shot his gun outside of killing a snake. He was however, an alcoholic. There was one scenario where I fear he would've killed his family had a neighbor not called the police. He couldn't get the gun outta the truck and was shooting through the windshield. If he could control his alcohol like he could his gun, he'd be here today (but that's another long story).
My mother hates guns! However, she loved her alcohol, too. My mom was a happy drunk, and did end up spending the night in jail - DWI on one occasion, (imagine what could've happened). She no longer drinks, and still hates guns. 
I hated guns, loved my alcohol. I believe if the LORD didn't intervene when He did, I'd have been a news story "Girl found dead on beach". I am no longer influenced by alcohol, I am a responsible gun owner. 
Sister (34 yrs old) - Active Duty Navy w/ 5 children ranging from 3 - 12 yrs old when she was murdered - shot. If it wasn't a gun, he would've used something else. It's the heart that kills, for even a car can be a weapon.
Brother (35 yrs old) - gun owner, alcohol. He tried and tried, but he lost that battle. His guns never did any harm. However, he lost his job, his wife, his family and eventually his life to alcohol. He tried rehab, didn't work. He detoxed alone at home instead of in the hospital. He didn't make it.
Sister - gun owner, no longer influenced by alcohol.
What we refuse to see is that often the drugs/alcohol control the person, not vice versa. And guns, well, I've never seen them control anyone. Again, I believe it's the heart that kills, unless it's under the influence of something else.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

ill say this again, theres a concept you people need to get hip to. you have no rights. if it can be taken away, its not a right, but merely a priviledge. so question is quite simply who gets to decide your priviledges for you? DO YOU, OR DOES THE STATE?


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## Possumfam (Apr 19, 2011)

FatTire said:


> ill say this again, theres a concept *you people* need to get hip to. you have no rights. if it can be taken away, its not a right, but merely a priviledge. so question is quite simply who gets to decide your priviledges for you? DO YOU, OR DOES THE STATE?


The OP asked about *us people* and our mindsets. Our circumstances have an effect on our mindsets. Something or someone, somewhere gave you your mindset, too. We are merely answering the question. Sounds like there are some on this forum w/ a chip on their shoulder intentionally looking for a fight. This forum has changed. We used to disagree in a civil manner and still get along, and still help each other out.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Hey its more like a real debate now!
Like I said above, I'm against drugs. I guess I don't think people can control themselves(makes me just like the government). FatTire I understand your stance and I agree in principle. But(there is always a but) it is a fact that humans have to have rules to follow. If we were all responsible drivers we would need no speed limits. If we were all honest we would need no laws dealing with theft, or extortion, or fraud, etc. And if drugs would only hurt the user I would totally be for legalization. And it is a solid fact that laws seldom work. We have speeders, thieves, murderers, congressman(oops). Drugs are hurting our country(more everyday). I believe we have to rethink/redo the whole drug law system. I don't have an answer(maybe there isn't one) buy the currant plan is not working.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

i dont drink and drive, i dont speed, i slow down at the yellow, not speed up, outside of military service ive never so much as exhibbited my guns in a threatening manner. 

my beliefe systems tells me that i have no right to induce a risk on others without their consent. that i should help when i can, and mind my own business when i should. i dont need a government to tell me this, nor do i need a bible.

i think its arrogant to assume that others need your laws and your religions. 

now then, im gonna take my kids out shooting, and when i get home, after the kids are asleep and the guns are cleaned, im gonna smoke a joint and reflect on the day. then im gonna go to sleep, get up, and work probably a sixty or seventy hour week.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

When I was a Deputy Sheriff I quickly came to the realization that if drugs and alcohol were removed from the social equation , that every where could be Mayberry and we wouldn't have had to carry guns.

Many people have allowed drugs and alcohol to ruin their lives, but the operative word is "allowed".

When someone begins to use drugs or alcohol, it is a choice not an illness.

When someone uses a gun in an illegal manner. That also is a choice.

If we take away the ability to choose, we also take away freedom.

With the ability to choose, comes the responcibility to make wise choices or suffer the consiquences that come with poor choises.

The right to bear arms is a freedom not enjoyed by most of the rest of the world. There are those who would take this right away from all of us to make us safe from our selves. They believe that by elliminating our ability to choose they can protect us.

Maximum security in a prison is safe but the safety comes at the forfiture of your liberty and freedom. All the choices are made for you.

Would you rather be safe or free, you can not be both.


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## rider1k (Apr 13, 2012)

BillM said:


> When I was a Deputy Sheriff I quickly came to the realization that if drugs and alcohol were removed from the social equation , that every where could be Mayberry and we wouldn't have had to carry guns.
> 
> Many people have allowed drugs and alcohol to ruin their lives, but the operative word is "allowed".
> 
> ...


I take free any day and be responsible for my own safety.


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

FatTire said:


> i dont drink and drive, i dont speed, i slow down at the yellow, not speed up, outside of military service ive never so much as exhibbited my guns in a threatening manner.
> 
> my beliefe systems tells me that i have no right to induce a risk on others without their consent. that i should help when i can, and mind my own business when i should. i dont need a government to tell me this, nor do i need a bible.
> 
> ...


To bad others don't follow your manner & system ...


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## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

Fatty what don't you understand about drugs, you promote them enough and I'm sure you use them. The only purpose for human consumtion of weed is to alter your mind. That's it. Doesn't make you taller or cure cancer or regrow hair. It only alters your mind. Alcohol has a similar effect as drugs. I drink alcohol and I don't care who does drinks or drugs because its not my business. Drugs only purpose is to alter your mind and perception. With that said I don't agree that drugs should be illegal as our war on drugs is going almost as well as most of our other wars. A pointless expenditure of manpower and money. So to any antigun liberals let's make a deal, I will support your right to buy shrooms and dime bags if I can buy a fully auto tommy gun!!


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

mojo4 said:


> Fatty what don't you understand about drugs, you promote them enough and I'm sure you use them. The only purpose for human consumtion of weed is to alter your mind. That's it. Doesn't make you taller or cure cancer or regrow hair. It only alters your mind. Alcohol has a similar effect as drugs. I drink alcohol and I don't care who does drinks or drugs because its not my business. Drugs only purpose is to alter your mind and perception. With that said I don't agree that drugs should be illegal as our war on drugs is going almost as well as most of our other wars. A pointless expenditure of manpower and money. So to any antigun liberals let's make a deal, I will support your right to buy shrooms and dime bags if I can buy a fully auto tommy gun!!


yes, i do smoke pot. the important thing here isnt what you or i dont understand about weed, it about who gets to make that choice. if you advocate for a government that says you cant, its just as easy for laws to be twisted to say you must.

marijuana has other effects besides just altering the mind. stimulating the apetite and reducing nasea while mabe not particularly important to you are very important to people recieving chemotherapy. perhaps you could step out of your own shell for just a moment and think about others.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

bahramthered said:


> Dam I must have held back too little. I had way better lines for your false analogy of rape/self defense and the drug issue. And not to mention you accused me of being as drug user for daring to ask the question. Hypocrite much?


Before I do actually put you on my ignore list, I just have one question. Who were you responding to with your post that I quoted? If you go back and read my only post you will see that the only thing I accused you of was being an insulting ass and I still hold that opinion of you.

You can choose to respond or not because I won't see it anyway, so just keep insulting away and see how long it takes for TPTB on this forum to get a belly full of that BS.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

*Whoa guys!everybody step back and check out what you're saying to each other!I'm the only one allowed to go batsh1t in a post LOL!*

Really guys, I've heard less cruel things said in abortion debates!Now let's break this down under Mag's magic microscope and look at this thing:

Guns: Tools for hunting, self defense, recreation, and worst case scenario, pen1s extension, but hey! you can also blow your neighbor's head off because his damn dog crapped in your yard one too many times.THERE IS a dark side.But hell,you could smash his skull with a brick too, dead is dead.

Drugs:Now WHAT exactly is a drug?at brass tacks its any substance you put in your body to illicit a change in its function.this can be a good or bad thing as we all know.so lets break it down further and say MODEREN drugs are chemically based while more primitive ones are herbal or mineral AKA naturally occurring such as Marijuana, Salvia Divinorum, shrooms or Coca leaf.Put here for the healing of nations if you are a Christian, a gift from the earth if you are Pagan, party time if you're a zonked out hippie loser looking for his next trip.Many civilizations considered such naturally occurring things as sacred and the very idea of abusing them just to get off horrified them!you see, its not the use of such things that's the problem, it's their misuse for recreation that's become such a pain in the butt, and the moment you start refining and adding things to these wonderful but misused and misunderstood items, you're just asking for trouble.I say if they occur naturally, they have purpose and should be studied and used with respect, "SALTS" are NOT natural.shoot the damn pushers in the head out behind the barn and throw them in the burn pit with the rest of the trash.

My two cents.back to your argument.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

oldvet ignores a lot of people, thats his right, and his loss. whats funny is that he, and a few others here, think the ignore function is some kind of punishment.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

LOL nope.just means whoever ticked them off can post with impunity and without challenge.

Me, I like a good fight.If someone gets my cheese, I jump them at every opportunity!

I say challenge everyone be they troll or forum regular! discourse of issues is a freedom we won't have much longer, let the flames fly and the bombs fall and freedom of speech rule the day and may the most eloquent and intelligent win the war!


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

a conversation with salvia, is the major reason im a prepper, magus


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## Immolatus (Feb 20, 2011)

First: Jack I am sorry for your tragedy.

Second: Cant we all just get along? Why the personal attacks? We all have different points of view, and thats great. Just because we do, doesnt mean the other person is an idiot.

For me, drugs should be legal. I could make all kinds of arguments, some already posted (the literal economic cost, for one), but it mainly comes down to one, and for me, the only one that matters. And the self professed 'liberal' (FT) is the one to bring it up so vehemently? And many who I assume would call themselves 'conservative' are just as vehemently against?
*The gubt should (does?) not have the right to tell me ( nor should you!) what I can and cannot do with my own body. If it can regulate my own personal intimate space within the limits of my physical being, then where does one draw the line?* How could one stand up for personal freedom and responsibility and disagree with this?

I cant help but comment on some other posts. Given the direction this thread is going, it will be either moved to politics (cause thats what it is), thereby removing some from the discussion, or be shut down.



FatTire said:


> You shouldn't be able able to tell me I can't smoke pot, and I shouldn't be able to tell you can't own guns.


Yes.



tac803 said:


> Guns are legal and drugs arent??


Legality is a man made construct.



BillS said:


> I repeat guns are a tool. Anyone using one needs to use it properly. Have you ever had a burn? Burns can kill you. Does that mean fire is bad? Do we need a three-day waiting period for matches? Or blow torches?
> 
> Drugs are inanimate objects with an evil purpose. They should remain illegal.


1) Evil? Please define in context. Also a man made construct.
2)Doesnt the analogy of fire/guns also apply to a chemical?



mojo4 said:


> Drugs sole purpose is to distort your mind. Sure smoking weed helps with pain but like all drugs they distort how your mind naturally operates. Aspirin is nothing like weed or coke as it shuts down pain receptors in your nerves alleviating pain, not altering your perception of reality.


I'll split hairs here, but is the shutting down of pain receptors not altering ones perception of reality?



hiwall said:


> "Firearm ownership does not lead to a physical addiction, or financial difficulties, or broken families. Misuse of firearms can, to be sure, but not the responsible ownership. In my experience, drug and alcohol abuse specifically impair responsible judgement. It also promotes criminal behavior"
> 
> I would think responsible drug use would harm no one. Everyone on here I'm sure has used some kind of drug at some point in their lives. I doubt that that drug use led to any deaths. I certainly think it is much harder for many people to use drugs(including alcohol) responsibly compared to firearms. Firearms seldom cloud your judgement.


Some may find this an odd statement to make, but please at least consider it.
Firearms absolutely alter your judgement. I'll assume that any former/active military/LEO would obviously agree with this. Imagine being in a war without a gun? Or entering a bad situation without one?
Does one not feel 'safer' with a firearm?
In the hands of someone with 'bad intentions' (the Evil?) whether its a criminal or an LEO/soldier (with good or bad intentions) does a weapon not alter ones judgement and actions? Of course it does. As much for the criminal who thinks they have the upper hand, or the cop acting to save a life. Or the US bullying other countries because we have bigger guns.



FatTire said:


> so question is quite simply who gets to decide your priviledges for you? DO YOU, OR DOES THE STATE?


Indeed.
The gubt should not exist to GRANT you rights, only to UPHOLD them.
As with any other discussion of gubt and personal rights, either you are in control of yourself and your actions, or you arent.
I have to say that what I tend to gather from this discussion (and this holds for almost any discussion of this type) is that people seem to have this mindset. "If I dont agree with it, then it should be illegal". Consequences/repercussions/costs be damned.

PS. I am not an illegal drug user.


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## partdeux (Aug 3, 2011)

I'm not reading through all six pages...

Drugs should be legal, but an employer should be allowed to not hire people on drugs. Since one can not own drugs with a medical marijuana card, neither should one be allowed to collect welfare... In fact, I'm all for seriously limiting welfare handouts.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

How does one "OWN" anything? ownership implies eternity and we all know we take nothing to the grave, not even our memories.



FatTire said:


> a conversation with salvia, is the major reason im a prepper, magus


You saw red sky too huh? was it nukes or solar?
Whatever it is, its soon.


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## Jack Aubrey (May 24, 2009)

Just because there are other posters that disagree with my opinions, I would hope I didn't come across as being dismissive, condescending,or rude. I am not intolerant of opposing views. Anyway, I've said my piece. Best regards to all, JA


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

Magus said:


> How does one "OWN" anything? ownership implies eternity and we all know we take nothing to the grave, not even our memories.
> 
> You saw red sky too huh? was it nukes or solar?
> Whatever it is, its soon.


actualy no... she showed me vast machining, grinding and chopping and chipping and schredding... vast and timeless, both eager and yet uncaring... the pace of those that know they are inevitible...


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## oldwindrow (Jun 25, 2012)

In what manner do pharmaceutical drugs enter the equation? There are multitudes of lawsuits out there due to what they've caused. A doctor prescribed them, doesn't that make them morally correct?

Life is a gamble. heads, or tails.


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## alwaysready (May 16, 2012)

partdeux said:


> I'm not reading through all six pages...
> 
> Drugs should be legal, but an employer should be allowed to not hire people on drugs. Since one can not own drugs with a medical marijuana card, neither should one be allowed to collect welfare... In fact, I'm all for seriously limiting welfare handouts.


I could live with that! Mandatory testing for all who receive any form of prolonged social services. In California if you use a firearm and commit a criminal act you get a lot more time.should be the same for drugs and alcohol.How about that?


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## radio477 (Feb 9, 2012)

wow, is that what this place is, a gathering of hulicinagentic drug using, weapons totting, paranoid survivalist? my kinda party sign me up and pass the kool-aid!!


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Its mescal and grape juice. LOL

I don't need help to trip out and see/hear stuff, just ask the naked pole dancing elves that live in my underwear drawer.My nickname is "flipper" for a reason, as in flip out and chase you with a battle axe.


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## lexsurivor (Jul 5, 2010)

I guess ill be the one to ask. Why is this in General Preparedness Discussion?


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## alwaysready (May 16, 2012)

lexsurivor said:


> I guess ill be the one to ask. Why is this in General Preparedness Discussion?


Good point


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## showmegal (Sep 14, 2011)

Better yet, why was this even posted at all other than to get under peoples skin. You can't even begin to compare the two. Sadly enough 7 pages of post! I wouldn't waste anymore brain cells on the topic, imo.


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## TheAnt (Jun 7, 2011)

showmegal said:


> Better yet, why was this even posted at all other than to get under peoples skin. You can't even begin to compare the two. Sadly enough 7 pages of post! I wouldn't waste anymore brain cells on the topic, imo.


Agreed! I guess when you are wasting brain cells left and right anyway whats a few more down the drain? (BTW, not directed at you)

I've seen threads shut down much quicker than this for less infraction than this but I bet this thread doesnt have much life left in it.


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## artash (Mar 4, 2012)

Gun control laws is more about control than the actual guns. People who want to do malevolent things will always find a way to get a gun and kill someone. Just look at schools, the most violent shootings happen at schools.


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

showmegal said:


> Better yet, why was this even posted at all other than to get under peoples skin. You can't even begin to compare the two. Sadly enough 7 pages of post! I wouldn't waste anymore brain cells on the topic, imo.


This is the first I've been online since very early Sunday morning. I'm surprised no has shut this crap down yet.

Allow me to do the honors.


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