# Barter/Trade in post SHTF



## Bravo_12v (Dec 30, 2011)

I am not sure if this subject has been discussed before so excuuse me if it has. I've been thinking lately that it would be a good idea to start having a steady supply of some "luxuries" like alcohol, cigarettes, and the like. For trade/barter should SHTF I think it would be beneficial to have some luxuries to trade off.

Any input or ideas (other luxuries or just ideas). Right now my thoughts are maybe setting up a micro brewery of sorts for the alcohol would be a good idea however not sure how I would store the smokes and prevent them from going stale.


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## teotwaki (Aug 31, 2010)

We could plan for bartering in two phases. The first is for right after an event when people need basics such as matches, clean water and so on. After things have settled down and if you have tobacco products and a micro-brewery you could be a king! :beercheer:


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## teotwaki (Aug 31, 2010)

found another recent thread here: http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f2/bartering-trading-13336/


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

Repeatedly! But it's a great subject, as are any prep-related subjects!  It seems like each time there are new things that people add to the discussion, so thanks for starting this thread!

Here's a couple other recent barter threads everyone can read too, in addition to all the great stuff people add to this one: (I see "teotwaki" posted one of them while I was writing my post! :congrat: )

http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f2/bartering-trading-13336/
http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f2/best-barter-10113/

This one is a cool thread. It's a "practice" thread for bartering, like an exercise to help get the idea about bartering.
http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f26/lets-barter-11171/


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## tugboats (Feb 15, 2009)

Just buy the tobacco in bulk and freeze it. You can purchase the empty tubes to make cigarettes for about a penny apiece. Purchase a cigarette making machine and you are good to go. I have smoked some tobacco that was frozen for over a year. It smoked just fine. You can make cigarettes for about a dollar a pack this way. Just use "pipe" tobacco.

Brewing beer is great. I think that it is more of a hobby that a prep. The time lag from start to finish is to lengthy to be practical post SHTF. Better of learning how to distill. I brew about 25 gallons of beer each month (We have 5 carboys). Family and friends enjoy it. We are never lonely. Many preppers are into brewing. I have meet several preppers this way. It is nice to see the setups of others and get additional input.

Tugs


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## Bravo_12v (Dec 30, 2011)

Yeah that is my bad been out of the loop lately with some stuff for myself, having to get ready for the next couple of months. But I do appreciate the suggestions.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Be very carefull*



Bravo_12v said:


> I am not sure if this subject has been discussed before so excuuse me if it has. I've been thinking lately that it would be a good idea to start having a steady supply of some "luxuries" like alcohol, cigarettes, and the like. For trade/barter should SHTF I think it would be beneficial to have some luxuries to trade off.
> 
> Any input or ideas (other luxuries or just ideas). Right now my thoughts are maybe setting up a micro brewery of sorts for the alcohol would be a good idea however not sure how I would store the smokes and prevent them from going stale.


I know that you do not realize and you are just speaking hypotheticlly but what you are planing is illegal now and will be after TSHTF.

The sale and distribution of alcohol and tobacco products without a license is a federal felony. Planning the enterprise with a pardner is a federal felony.

If you are afraid the Federal government is going to come after you, start an alcohol / tobacco business without a license.

:sssh:


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## Bravo_12v (Dec 30, 2011)

BillM said:


> I know that you do not realize and you are just speaking hypotheticlly but what you are planing is illegal now and will be after TSHTF.
> 
> The sale and distribution of alcohol and tobacco products without a license is a federal felony. Planning the enterprise with a pardner is a federal felony.
> 
> ...


In the state that I am from it is actually not illegal whatsoever to make beer at home, hence I asked the question, now if it is illegal in your town/city/state/country than it is on you. I do not condone violation of laws. In my home state you can share your home brewed beer. As for a Post SHTF world, are you going to stop and obey laws that, well in the scenario that I am contemplating i.e a "world without law" are obsolete? If that is so then please don't speed when trying to get away from anyone chasing you. Cheers.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Trade ? Barter?*



Bravo_12v said:


> In the state that I am from it is actually not illegal whatsoever to make beer at home, hence I asked the question, now if it is illegal in your town/city/state/country than it is on you. I do not condone violation of laws. In my home state you can share your home brewed beer. As for a Post SHTF world, are you going to stop and obey laws that, well in the scenario that I am contemplating i.e a "world without law" are obsolete? If that is so then please don't speed when trying to get away from anyone chasing you. Cheers.


You are not talking about making beer just to consume. You are talking about bartering alcohol and/or tobacco for goods and services.

The ATF is not stupid.

I don't care and wish you well but if I was inclined to do this, I would not advertise it on the internet in advance.


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## teotwaki (Aug 31, 2010)

BillM said:


> I know that you do not realize and you are just speaking hypotheticlly but what you are planing is illegal now and will be after TSHTF.
> 
> The sale and distribution of alcohol and tobacco products without a license is a federal felony. Planning the enterprise with a pardner is a federal felony.
> 
> ...


Bill, if he buys booze and tobacco now and simply stores it I don't think that he has done anything illegal. If there is some big event and society collapses then he'll be free to sell as much as he can. The current laws that you are highlighting are all about control and taxation. If TSHTF then those laws will be forgotten.

Respectfully submitted.....


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

BillM said:


> You are not talking about making beer just to consume. You are talking about bartering alcohol and/or tobacco for goods and services.
> 
> The ATF is not stupid.
> 
> I don't care and wish you well but if I was inclined to do this, I would not advertise it on the internet in advance.


First, In the scenario he's talking about the ATF is going to be pretty busy trying to stop the huge numbers of people doing it. Good luck to the ATF (NOT!).

Second, there'll be so much "illegal" activity going on that being prosecuted for non-violent offenses will be impractical even if you could get the authorities to d so. The judge may be first in line buying the booze.

Third, bartering any items or services is illegal unless you pay the appropriate taxes on the "income" that you make. If you teach your children and I teach my children we're doing okay as far as income taxes go but if I teach your children and you do my laundry then we are both employed.

Fourth, you can't even sell/barter eggs and prepared foods without appropriate licensing from the state. In a SHTF situation ... good luck enforcing _those_ laws!

Don't get your undies in a knot over the "legalities." In a SHTF scenario there's going to be a lot of "illegal" activity done by everyone. Many laws are going to be ignored. Be the kind of person who's seen as an asset and a lot of things are going to be overlooked. If you're a jerk you'll probably be in more danger from the neighborhood watch than the federales.

And yes, we have stored tobacco and alcohol for trading purposes and we also plan on bartering skills, produce and labor for things we need. I got a feeling that at times like those the alphabet agencies aren't going to be working too hard after the government has forgot a few of their paydays.


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## Bravo_12v (Dec 30, 2011)

@mosquitomountainman Thanks I appreciate the advice, glad to see people are paying attention to the scenario not the unknowns. Cheers to you and yours.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

In our area, everyone and their brother is making some kind of booze, everything from every kind of wine that can be made up here, to things like rum and whiskey. Right now it's just for themselves and the occasional visiting friend. Some of the best rum I've ever had was made in a 5-gallon bucket sitting under the computer desk of one of our son-in-laws!

So I'm leaving the barter booze to those who are learning it now. But I've been vacuum-sealing tobacco and other stuff for bartering.

If the SHTF in a serious way legalities will not be an issue. It's a great idea to learn how to make these things _now_, though. You'll be ahead of the curve. We'll have enough new things to do and learn then, so it's best to learn all we can now.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

mosquitomountainman said:


> Second, there will be so much "illegal" activity going on that being prosecuted for non-violent offenses will be impractical even if you could get the authorities to do so. The judge may be first in line buying the booze.


Quoted for truth!


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*In a true*




teotwaki said:


> Bill, if he buys booze and tobacco now and simply stores it I don't think that he has done anything illegal. If there is some big event and society collapses then he'll be free to sell as much as he can. The current laws that you are highlighting are all about control and taxation. If TSHTF then those laws will be forgotten.
> 
> Respectfully submitted.....


In a true total collapse of sociaty, this would be true but what if it is a partial collapse and the Government remains intact .

What about right now and the lead up to a collapse.

I arrested bootlegers for transporting alcohol in a dry county for the purpose of resale.

They were not actually selling it yet but they were transporting it and storeing it for that purpose.

There are numerous federal codes dealing with conspiring to commit a crime.

It just is not wise to tell anyone who wants to check out what you are doing or planning that you are breaking the law.

I will state again , I don't care what you trade or barter but the government may decide to act and I don't trust them.

Do you ?

Some of you other LE folks need to speak up here.


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## teotwaki (Aug 31, 2010)

BillM said:


> In a true total collapse of sociaty, this would be true but what if it is a partial collapse and the Government remains intact .
> 
> What about right now and the lead up to a collapse.
> 
> ...


I do agree that discretion is always a good thing. There are lots of things that I would love to discuss but I am not doing that on the Internet.

In a partial collapse there is no telling what can happen but I think the OP simply meant a total collapse. If he builds a home micro-brewery NOW and consumes the beer himself then it is fruitless to sit and imagine all of the laws he "plans" to break. I would not lump the OP in with seasoned bootleggers. I doubt they are on this forum, LOL


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## Bravo_12v (Dec 30, 2011)

@BillM I do appreciate the advice to steer clear of breaking the law. My original intent and post is for total collapse, I enjoy drinking micro brews all the time. And I like yourself am in the profession of LE. I of course do not nor do I intend to barter/trade while laws are in place. No need. However for the purpose of survival I would think learning skills of all manner would be important. If it was a partial collapse I would find no need to use luxuries for trade. However if say a collapse lasts for 1 year or more I would start looking into it. So knowing how to make things is important. Hence for example I have taken courses on fixing weapons of all types. All I am doing is planning for an uncertain future.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*We are*



Bravo_12v said:


> @BillM I do appreciate the advice to steer clear of breaking the law. My original intent and post is for total collapse, I enjoy drinking micro brews all the time. And I like yourself am in the profession of LE. I of course do not nor do I intend to barter/trade while laws are in place. No need. However for the purpose of survival I would think learning skills of all manner would be important. If it was a partial collapse I would find no need to use luxuries for trade. However if say a collapse lasts for 1 year or more I would start looking into it. So knowing how to make things is important. Hence for example I have taken courses on fixing weapons of all types. All I am doing is planning for an uncertain future.


We are on the same page. I'm just trying to look out for folks who don't have our range of experiance.


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## Bravo_12v (Dec 30, 2011)

Understandable I guess I should have been clear from the start. I mean right now in my state it is completely legal to make home brews, so learning the skill is legal. Now if society had collapsed and my supplies were dwindling I would like to have more than one "marketable" skill to help those around me and my own family. As say someone harvests an animal and they have a few pounds of meat I would gladly trade a carton of smokes for the meat and vise versa. Out in my neck of the woods we don't have dry counties whatsoever so I didn't even know it was a big deal. We have annual "home brewed" beer competitions hence I was like "whoa man" I ain't doing nothing illegal here.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

As far as I know, brewing beer or wine at home is legal in all 50 states.

Distillation is different... 
the BATF does not allow the distillation of spirits by anyone unless you have an experimenter's alcohol fuel permit, and then the only distillation you are allowed is strictly for fuel purposes.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*Actually*



LincTex said:


> As far as I know, brewing beer or wine at home is legal in all 50 states.
> 
> Distillation is different...
> the BATF does not allow the distillation of spirits by anyone unless you have an experimenter's alcohol fuel permit, and then the only distillation you are allowed is strictly for fuel purposes.


Actually, I think you can obtain a license to distill a certin amount of alcohol for your own use.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

Thought of somethin as I was eating breakfast. What would you trade for a pound of bacon after a year or two without. Id be tempted to trade my soul . That and butter, olive oil, spices, sugar. After things start rebuilding these things would be worth their weight in gold/goods in my opinion.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

CrackbottomLouis said:


> What would you trade for a pound of bacon after a year or two without.


Oh, not too much. I know how to cure bacon and I know too many hog farmers.

butter: local dairy farmers, self
olive oil: hard to say, would probably just use sunflower oil
spices: unground peppercorns last a very long time, herbs can be grown at home
sugar: No easy answer


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

BillM said:


> Actually, I think you can obtain a license to distill a certin amount of alcohol for your own use.


The liscense that you can get is to make fuel in my understanding. That means you can distill but have to either run your product through a volcanic filter or denature it with gasoline. Either makes it non drinkable. Booo! You are allowed to distill small amounts of liquor as lond as you dont distribute it. Not 100% sure about this but who is gonna know if you dont tell anyone and dont share it? Might want to check on your local laws before startin. Shinin for profit is a felony. No more guns if caught and charged. Not a decisiin to make lightly. Havent made a batch in a while and probably wont for years. When makin mash use somethin with a small openin at top. Put surgical glove or balloon over cap with rubber band. Put straw in under rubber band to allow air to leak. When balloon quits blowing up and deflates you r ready to cook.


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## Bravo_12v (Dec 30, 2011)

Something I myself just thought of over my breakfast was something I think every red blooded American likes and for our cousins in the UK is coffee/tea. That to me seems like another "luxury" that people would trade for. I think of course that it would fall upon individuals to establish the trading value of it all. But I for one would gladly trade a carton of smokes for a pound of coffee.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_substitute

In World War II, acorns were used to make coffee

Some culinary traditions, like that of Korea, include beverages made from roasted grain instead of coffee or tea

Grain coffee and other substitutes can be made by roasting or decocting various organic substances.

Some ingredients used include: almond, acorn, asparagus, malted barley, beechnut, beetroot, carrot, chicory root, corn, cottonseed, dandelion root (see dandelion coffee), fig, boiled-down molasses, okra seed, pea, persimmon seed, potato peel,[2] rye, sassafras pits, sweet potato, wheat bran.

The Native American tribes of what is now the Southeastern United States brewed a ceremonial drink containing caffeine, "asi", or the "black drink", from the roasted leaves and stems of Ilex vomitoria (Yaupon holly). European colonists adopted this beverage as a coffee-substitute, which they called "cassina".[3]

Ground roasted chicory root has been sold commercially on a large scale since around 1970, and it has become a mainstream product, both alone and mixed with real coffee. It was widely used during the American Civil War on both sides, and has long enjoyed popularity especially in New Orleans, where Luzianne has long been a popular brand in this respect. Chicory mixed with coffee is also popular in South India - see Indian filter coffee.

Postum was an instant type of coffee substitute made from wheat bran, wheat, molasses, and maltodextrin from corn. It reached its height of popularity in the United States during World War II when coffee was sharply rationed. It remained popular for many years but is no longer made. In the wake of its discontinuance, a number of replica recipes for Postum have circulated across the Internet.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

LincTex said:


> ... sugar: No easy answer


There are lots of options for "sweeteners." Honey and molasses are the first two that come to mind. Syrup can be made from many different trees. Gypsysue was reading about aplant that grows wild that has a high sugar content. (Ask her about that one!) The downside is that these don't taste like the refined sugar we are used to.

But then our culinary tastes are going to need re-educated in a lot of other things anyway so it'll be make do with what's available or just do without!


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

Bravo_12v said:


> Something I myself just thought of over my breakfast was something I think every red blooded American likes and for our cousins in the UK is coffee/tea. That to me seems like another "luxury" that people would trade for. I think of course that it would fall upon individuals to establish the trading value of it all. But I for one would gladly trade a carton of smokes for a pound of coffee.


Our favorite tea is mint tea harvested from mint grown in our garden. We've had other varieties as well with rose hip tea being pretty good.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

mosquitomountainman said:


> The downside is that these don't taste like the refined sugar we are used to.


It can be very difficult to adjust recipes for various alternate sweeteners as well, and have it "turn out OK" when done (both in texture and being palatable).


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

Bravo_12v said:


> Something I myself just thought of over my breakfast was something I think every red blooded American likes and for our cousins in the UK is coffee/tea. That to me seems like another "luxury" that people would trade for. I think of course that it would fall upon individuals to establish the trading value of it all. But I for one would gladly trade a carton of smokes for a pound of coffee.


I got a fair amount a "Instant" coffee stored along with non dairy creamer. Ok, it ain't the best coffee, but when there ain't nothin else it gonna taste mighty good!


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## Bravo_12v (Dec 30, 2011)

That is true, I mean it might not be the best but it will do. Hell I will take a packet of instant if thats all there is "beggers cant be choosers" right?


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## Erick3758 (Aug 9, 2011)

I think there would be a large market for booze and smokes.i personally would not want to be known as the house that always has it.i think there would be just as large of a market for useful items.


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## teotwaki (Aug 31, 2010)

Bravo_12v said:


> That is true, I mean it might not be the best but it will do. Hell I will take a packet of instant if thats all there is "beggers cant be choosers" right?


Note to self: save those packets from the MREs


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

I stock instant coffee. It isnt the best but any coffee is better than no coffee. Long shelf life and easy to make. Lived on it overseas.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

Why stock instant coffee when you can stock the real thing.

You can purchase green coffee beans over the internet for around $5.35 a pound.
If you vacume pack them in one pound packages , you can keep your coffee for years this way.

When you get ready to use it, you will have to roast your beans and seperate them from the husks.

Then you can grind your beans and make your coffee. 

It is real coffee and it is good.


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

CrackbottomLouis said:


> I stock instant coffee. It isnt the best but any coffee is better than no coffee. Long shelf life and easy to make. Lived on it overseas.


I vacuum seal mine in bags with the creamer. Should be round long after I ain't! So yeah it ain't all bad!

I got no way er the time ta roast coffee, so ifin it comes down ta the time I'm usin the instant, least I'll still have some joe. Hey whatever works fer ya I always say.


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

I don't drink coffee but AuntJoe actually prefers the freeze-dried. Needless to say, we have enough for her to be happy for a while.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

OldCootHillbilly said:


> I got no way er the time ta roast coffee,


There's a lot of info on the internet about how to convert a hot-air popcorn maker into a coffee bean roaster. That should make it easier. There is more than one way to skin that cat.


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

You can roast coffee beans in a skillet over a campfire.

When they turn the correct color and the husk pops off you remove the skillet from the fire and blow the husks away.

Then you are ready to grind them.

If you don't have a grinder , you can bust them up with a blunt instrement in the skillet.

Boil them in a pot of water and you have fresh coffee.

I hope this helps !


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

If you are a beer drinker learn how to brew. If you like wine learn how to make wine. You will be far better doing something you enjoy. Have you ever had a cup of coffee made by someone that doesn't drink coffee? Storing significant amounts of tobacco is not for me but I might consider some tobacco seeds. 

If you have sewing skills and a stash of material I'll give you some business. New clothes do tend to raise the spirits. In fact any skill, especially if you have the tools and materials, will be a marketable skill. A carpenter that can make toys. Once our basic necessities are met we will want luxuries to ease our work and raise our spirits. It will not a whole lot different from today in that manner.


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## PennyPincher (Dec 5, 2011)

If TSHTF would it be wise to be using or supplying alcohol?


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

PennyPincher said:


> If TSHTF would it be wise to be using or supplying alcohol?


Mettc dependent but im going with an occasional hell yeah.


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## Startingout-Blair (Aug 28, 2012)

This thread is about barter/trade. IMHO, I believe homemade beer, wine and whiskey will be great bartering tools. I rarely drink alcohol, but I've made homemade wind for years and I'm going to start brewing beer this fall. As for distillation, I cannot legally do that unless I get a permit through BATFE, but I am learning as much about the tools, equipment and process as possible for future reference. Clean whiskey, by any name, is great for fuel, trade, and medical sanitation. And we won't have painkillers, so it may be a real need!!! Lol


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## BillM (Dec 29, 2010)

*In my opinion*



PennyPincher said:


> If TSHTF would it be wise to be using or supplying alcohol?


In my opinion, becoming the bootleger after TSHTF is a bad idea.

As for useing alcohol for other than medicinal purposes, I would not want to be impared in uncertin cercumstances.

Drunk and packing is never a good idea, I don't care who you are.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

Startingout-Blair said:


> This thread is about barter/trade. IMHO, I believe homemade beer, wine and whiskey will be great bartering tools. I rarely drink alcohol, but I've made homemade wind for years and I'm going to start brewing beer this fall. As for distillation, I cannot legally do that unless I get a permit through BATFE, but I am learning as much about the tools, equipment and process as possible for future reference. Clean whiskey, by any name, is great for fuel, trade, and medical sanitation. And we won't have painkillers, so it may be a real need!!! Lol


Good shine also makes a great antiseptic for wound cleaning.


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## Bravo_12v (Dec 30, 2011)

Well illegally making things right now is not something I condone, post-SHTF I agree with people that have stated the medicinal uses of alcohol along with just plain using it for its many uses. Now in a situation such as the one we are talking about, drinking to the point of drunkenness is a bad idea, however in moderation that depends on the individual I see it from a psychological point of view it would be a way to maintain a high spirits.

I think it would be best to have a stock of it on hand if needed for anything from anesthetics to just good for the soul.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Don't forget that a drink is often used as a way to cement friendships, alliances or business agreements. It has been that way for hundreds of years and will continue to be so.

Heck, even on Star Trek they use it as a social exercise to do that, so expect alcohol to be around for several more millennium, LOL!!!


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