# Mutual Aid Group agreement.



## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

A rough draft.

Attitude.

A inner drive to always "be alive" and not to simply "survive." This means conducting one's actions in a manner that retains their humanity and soul. This is not a "stay alive no matter the cost" mentality.

A belief that one's ultimate hope in getting through a MAG necessary situation is not in solely being prepared, but has the grounded belief that God is their ultimate hope and source of strength.

Definitions.

BOL. Bug Out Location. This is where the MAG will live during a major state, national or world catastrophe.

Family Unit. A single unmarried person. A husband and wife. A husband and wife with siblings. A person or person(s) who are primary caregivers for another person or person(s).

Group 1 (Defense). Anyone over 16 years of age and has the knowledge and capability to operate and fire a firearm safely. Physically capable of walking 10 miles while carrying a 25 pound pack. Primarily responsible for BOL defensive perimeter, internal security and communications. Secondary responsibility is to assist Group 2 personal.

Group 2 (Support). Anyone over 13 years of age. Physical limitations or age excludes them from participating in Group 1. Primary responsible for shelter, food, water, medical and power. Secondary responsibility is to assist the Group 1 personal.

MAG. Mutual Aid Group. A group of people that join together to provide each member with support and aid when needed. New membership into the MAG must be unanimously approved by ALL of the current members of the MAG prior to revealing the existence of the MAG to the potential new member(s).

OP. Observation Post. A secret temporary or fixed position location from which members can watch for or to warn of the approach of strangers. An observation post is any preselected position from which observations are to be made. When selecting an observation post, avoid obvious and conspicuous locations such as hilltops, water tower or other isolated terrain features, and to assure that the observation post can be reached via a concealed route. This is especially important as the observer in the post should be rotated every 20-30 minutes, as vigilance decreases markedly after such a time. Observation posts should be manned with at least two personnel if the post is to be retained for longer durations and should be provided a means of communication with their chain of command, preferably by wired communications instead of by radio.

OPSEC. Operational Security. OPSEC is the process of protecting little pieces of data that could be grouped together to give the bigger picture. OPSEC is the protection of critical information deemed mission essential. Protecting this critical information is through the use of email encryption, being careful of who may be listening to you (like in a restaurant), paying close attention to a picture you have taken (back ground), or not talking openly on social media sites about information on MAG critical information (BOL, material or food acquired). In more modern usage, the term has come to have a similar meaning including protecting information from unfriendly eyes, coworkers and a non MAG person(s). Don't tell non MAG person(s) about your planned BOL, what you are accumulating and planning on doing in the event of a state, national or world catastrophe! We can not afford (or feed) people that just show up because they heard you discussing...

PO. The Property Owner of the land the BOL is located on. PO is responsible for a generator, water source, shelter, construction of fixed OPs, wired communications, HAM base station, CB SSB base station and a 12 VDC power source.

Organization.

Each Family Unit has one vote.

For routine matters and when time is not critical, Family Units will decide issues by a majority vote. The Property Owner (or his designated representative) will act as Chairman for all MAG meetings.

_NO_ new members will be invited to join until all of the MAG members have voted unanimously to invite the proposed new member to join.

Family Units shall elect a Leader of Group 1 and a Leader of Group 2. A ⅔ majority is required for a "Lost of Confidence" vote to remove a Leader of either Group or to ask a Family Unit to leave.

Leadership will consist of the BOL Property Owner, the elected Leader of Group 1 and the elected Leader of Group 2. For matters that are not routine or are time critical, the majority of the Leadership will make the final decision.

BOL Property Owner, the elected Leader of Group 1 and the elected Leader of Group 2 shall appoint their own organizational staff pertaining to their respective group.

It is understood that any and all equipment, food, firearms and any other material the Family Unit brought into the MAG belongs to the Family Unit that brought it into the MAG.

It is understood that any and all equipment, food, firearms and any other material the Family Unit brought into the MAG shall be shared with the other members of the MAG.

In the event a Family Unit is asked to leave the group any remaining equipment, food, firearms or other material the Family Unit brought into the MAG is theirs to take with them.

Standardization.

As much as is practical possible, firearms, ammo, equipment, power tools and electronics shall be standardized. Before purchasing check with the other members to see if they have already bought and if they have, what model/brand, etc. If one item breaks then that item may be cannibalized for parts to maintain the other like items. Two is one and one is none, mentality.

Family Unit. Dependent on the individual's skill set every Family Unit should bring into the group as many of the following as possible:

Hardware & Misc

1. Holy Bible and other "how to" reference materials (printed and digital).

2. Hand tools, saws, chain saws, LED flashlights, test equipment, solar panels, deep cycle 12 volt DC battery(s), gasoline, lumber, radios (solar or hand rechargeable), generators, cooking utensils, wiring, canning supplies (jars, lids, pressure cooker), shovels, picks, state road maps, topographical maps. Anything that would support the MAG with long term living.

3. All battery powered electronics must accept rechargeable Sanyo Eneloop AA batteries. Eneloop batteries are designed to hold 75% of their charge for 5 years.

A. Every Family Unit must have at least twice the number of AA batteries their electronics require and have the means to solar recharge at least 1/2 of their batteries as needed. (PowerFilm AA Foldable Solar Charger as an example).

4. Basic First Aid kit(s).

Clothing

1. Normal everyday wear clothing, coats, jackets, rain gear, boots, shoes and tennis shoes and undergarments appropriate for the four seasons. Earth tone colors recommended. Bright reflective colors must be avoided.

2. Backpacks. It may be necessary for the Family Unit to walk to the BOL or relocated from the BOL. Backpack(s) will need to be large enough to carry enough resources to sustain the Family Unit until they reach the BOL. Recommend the backpack(s) color and type would enable the Family Unit to blend in with other evacuees they may encounter. Bright colored or military color schemes can be easy covered with a black garbage bag (or white during the winter) when concealment or low profile is necessary.

Food

During a state catastrophe:

1. Enough food to maintain their Family Unit for 1 week.

During a national or world catastrophe:

1. Enough food to maintain their Family Unit for 1 year.

2. Enough non-GMO, non-hybrid seeds to plant, produce and provide for 2 years in the event of a national or world catastrophe.

3. Salt and other spices.

In addition to the Family Unit requirements, every Group 1 member shall bring the following additional items into the group:

Hardware & Misc.

1. Portable handheld 2-way radio capable of transmitting and receiving on all GRMS and all FRS frequencies. (Midland GXT1050VP4 as an example).

A. Powered by AA batteries.
B. Battery charger(s) must be capable of operating on 12 DC.
C. Capable of VOX operation
D. Headset with mic and earpiece.
E. Color. Earth tones or camo. No bright colors.

2. Rifle. AR design chambered for NATO 5.56.

A. Will accept and operate with MagPul PMags
B. Iron sights, Trijicon ACOG TA31F, any reliable red dot sight (must be powered by AA battery(s) or traditional "glass" scope.
C. 1 thousand rounds per rifle. 2 thousand rounds for a national or world catastrophe.
D. Cleaning kit
E. Minimum of 4 - 30 round magazines. A method to carry and quickly acquire.

3. Handgun. Members choice. Semi auto. Chambered in 9mm, 40 S&W or 45 ACP.

A. Cleaning kit.
B. 250 rounds. 500 rounds for a national or world catastrophe.
C. Minimum of 3 magazines.

4. Flashlight. Two required.

A. Minimal output, single LED with white and red lens and long AA battery life. Just enough light to be able to see at night or read a map without giving position away. (Gerber Recon D.I.A.L. as an example).
B. High output tactical flashlight. This is the ONLY exception to the AA battery rule. May use 18650 Lithium-Ion rechargeable battery(s). If 18650 then a 12 DC charger is required. (Example).

Clothing

For ease of recognition from other members of the MAG, concealment and the possible necessity to appear as a professional military unit a uniform dress code will be adhered to. This applies after the initial arrival to the BOL and when on duty.

1. Tactical Response Uniform (TRU) in Multicam

A. Pants 
B. Uniform Shirt 
C. Combat Shirt 
D. Belt

2. Combat Boots

A. Such as Bates brand boots

After duty hours Group 1 Member's clothing can be at their discretion as long as no bright, florescent or loud clothing.

Recommended Reading

Light Infantry Tactics for Small Teams
Larsen, Christopher E.

Combat Tracking Guide
Hurth, John D.

FM 3-25.26,2001 Map Reading and Land Navigation
Headquarters, Department of the Army

FM 21-76, 1970 Survival
Headquarters, Department of the Army


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

I assume you are looking for comments. I like the unanimous consent to admit new members. I would flesh out the organization portion and make the equipment list an Appendix. There should be an exit clause. You discuss removal of a family unit, but what if a family unit wants out? Is there a different requirement before disaster vs. Post disaster?

I'd also consider timing of acquisition of preps. For instance, let's say you have a family you want to admit. They are just beginning and are committed to prepping, but have only begun to acquire preps. What is the expectation?

I would also consider how you work with families where some members are committed preppers and others are not. For instance, I prep. My wife tolerates my prepping. Is that acceptable to the group?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.


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## bacpacker (Jul 15, 2011)

Nice draft.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

Good thoughts. I cant wait to see how this gets fleshed out to final draft. Have you considered having some kind of previous experience clause? Like maybe previous practical experience like military, leo, farming, or medical, etc?

Edit: in retrospect I guess this would be covered when voting members in.


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

Best of luck ...


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

Several thoughts...

Optics are not going to be 3AAA or 2AA compliant to the wishes of the prepped, they use batteries that can not be recharged and have to be purchased in quantities of 3 or 4 at a time if you really want a respectable amount of time using it in a combat field situation. 

So I'd say regardless of what your optics use, have several, and buy at least 1 new per year, batteries are end dated now so that should help a little with rotation. I'd love to find 123 batts that are rechargeable but everything I've read says their electronics are highly sensitive to voltage fluctuations which doesn't work well with recharging. 

Swapping out shooters and spotters on SWAT exercises makes sense in a hostage situation, but moving 1 or 2 people in and out of your "want to be at least partially unknown" LP/OP every 20 minutes is going to be something that gets tried for about the first hour... then you'll be looking for plan B. Having just put plan A into effect can lead others to doubt the effectiveness of plan B before even hearing it since that is obviously getting made up on the fly...

Clothing... just about EVERYONE is going to be wearing multicam, picking something really unique might be a good idea if you truly want a way for an OP scout sniper to detect an infiltrator.

Money? greenbacks are probably worthless, so a small amount of junk silver is probably a good idea. 

Food? other than 1 year per person that is somehow going to be... transported to the BOL?? if you've got 4 ppl in a family unit, and lets say for arguments sake 2 of them are small kids, not teenage boys who will eat everything they see and then go look for more... lets say that family unit needs.. 1 to 2 lbs minimum of protein a day plus the rest of the stuff... how are you going to transport that to the BOL? That will be like towing a semi trailer, by the time you add clothes and guns and ammo, and by the way, did you ever think about putting a gun on your wife and then telling her the family photo albums stay behind? did you forget to load the magazine before you gave it to her? that might buy you a couple seconds 

I don't see anything here on medical so that makes me wonder what you're expecting?

Girls have babies. that will be a problem you better have a solution for immediately when it happens!
Guns make big ****ing huge bloody ****ing holes in people. And they dont sit still while you sort that shit out. I'm just sayin...
mundane farm and garden chores cause tons of annual visits to the emergency room every day, and this is while things are just peachy...

energy! you've completely blown past that saying that the PO is responsibility lies with genny. Okay... I've got a little podunk genny and it works great. But it only works great if it's doing what I want it to do for supporting a group of people I'm willing to capitalize on fuel, oil, and maintenance... now your MAG sounds like it's going to be 20 ppl plus? counting kids? what if it's bigger? your PO is obligated to have a diesel genny that is measured in kWh? that's mighty generous of them to front that cost as well as everything else they are on the hook for

I'd work on energy, a LOT. you can store it, you can have LPG and diesel stored, especially kerosene, you can buy and use wind and solar even on small scales thats cool because it's something that the other things DONT have to power...

Training?? anyone can say and even believe to themselves "I need somewhere to go, and I'll be willing to defend it!!!" but the accounts of trained soldiers found with their weapons unfired suggests that is not the case. 

What about strongly suggesting all MAG members actively engage in self defense training, IDPA, 3 gun, etc... 



The overall framework is a good place to start and then begin tuning, otherwise people never even get started, so I'm not trying to bash! just saying that it's gonna be ugly and there's some areas of weakness you should look at to fix to protect the group as a whole


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

Dakine said:


> Several thoughts...
> 
> Optics are not going to be 3AAA or 2AA compliant to the wishes of the prepped, they use batteries that can not be recharged and have to be purchased in quantities of 3 or 4 at a time if you really want a respectable amount of time using it in a combat field situation.
> 
> ...


This is why I'd move the equipment lists to the Appendix. The title says this is supposed to an agreement between members of the group. I often have some new idea about desirable preps, as I am sure everyone here does.

In addition to my earllier comments, there needs to be a clause about how to make changes to the equipment lists. Let's say you have a group and everyone has multicam. Someone gets the idea to change that, but it is written right into your agreement. You need a clause that says the list can be updated by majority vote, or whatever mechanism you choose.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

This sounds like a great start. I would not have any idea about this.

I met a guy a few months ago who HAD a fairly large MAG. He has been working on prepping for more than 20 years. He had given his members a list of preps to have, water, food, weapons, etc. After a couple years, he visited everyone at their homes, and found that very few took anything he had said seriously, being seriously underprepared or not prepared at all. Maybe they thought that since they were a part of his group, they would be taken care of. How many of you know people like that? He told them they were no longer in his group. His group shrank down to a very small group.

He has a good size piece of land, close to a good sized lake, and only he and his family know where the exact location of the BOL is, the rest know a property he owns that is a few miles away. It is a step to protect him and his family from users and abusers. He is a contractor who has large equipment and a couple grown sons with families that can help with aspects of developing the real BOL. 

How do you guarantee that people in your group prepare as desired or needed?


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## ras1219como (Jan 15, 2013)

I also think you should put in a clause which outlines the consequences for failing to abide by the rules or committing some other undesirable act such as stealing from the MAG. There should probably be a range of punishment since not all offenses are created equal. This could range from something similar to probation to expulsion from the group and anything else really. You should also set up a type of judicial system for determining guilt and dolling out punishment. Just my two cents on the matter. 


Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum. Please forgive typos.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

The way the dialog is going illustrates how tough it is to organize a MAG. Here is a less detailed set of thoughts on what is needed in an agreement.

Preamble on what the purpose and goals of the group are.

Mechanism for admitting members, and ending the agreement overall or with a particular member or family. Pre and post disaster might be different.

Expectations of members. This can include acquiring a specific list of preps in a specific timeframe, but I would leave the list in an Appendix and define a mechanism for updating the list. This can also incllude skill requirements, e.g. Obtain one HAM license per familly.

Agreement on how the group will be governed (yours basically gives one vote per family but is vague on what requires a vote vs. A decision that can be made family by family or by a leader).

I'm probably stilll missing a bunch of stuff.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

I appreciate your comments.



Dakine said:


> Several thoughts...
> 
> Optics are not going to be 3AAA or 2AA compliant to the wishes of the prepped,


Trijicon has the SRS red dot. Takes a single AA and solar capabilities.



> ... moving 1 or 2 people in and out of your "want to be at least partially unknown" LP/OP every 20 minutes is going to be something that gets tried for about the first hour...


Time period would be dictated by how may different concealed routes there was to the OP(s).



> Food? ... how are you going to transport that to the BOL?


How a member transports is entirely up to them. If it was me I'd store the "National" and "World" events supplies at the BOL.



> I don't see anything here on medical ...energy...Training...


Part of the requirement when screening for new membership.



> What about strongly suggesting all MAG members actively engage in self defense training, IDPA, 3 gun, etc...


Excellent idea!


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

CrackbottomLouis said:


> ... Have you considered having some kind of previous experience clause? ...Edit: in retrospect I guess this would be covered when voting members in.


You are correct, covered when voting members in.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

weedygarden said:


> ....How do you guarantee that people in your group prepare as desired or needed?


I don't know of any way to guarantee. My first thought would be to screen new members for quality during the review process.

Every Village has an Idiot, everyone knows who it is and can make allowances. Advantage of a small village (group).

A City (larger group) has a lot more Idiots, too many to keep track of and impossible to compensate for. Like the City of Detroit Michigan for an example.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

I'm just curious why anyone thinks they can dictate what someone buys concerning their preps. I understand that you're trying to set this up as a pseudo democratic group with the family unit votes and all but you've already set up rules that many will not agree upon or submit. The freedom people here value is what you're asking them to give up with your "agreement".

Take the AA batteries and optics issue brought up previously... your answer is for someone to buy an Trijicon. That's funny. I could buy an off brand and enough button cell batteries to last several thousand years for the cost of a single Trijicon. Yet this is the solution you propose because of a stubbornness to stick with enveloop AA batteries. These types of things would need a vote to change. See any problems?

I value my freedom to buy and wear exactly what I want because it's my money, time, effort etc. that went into the ability and decision for the purchase. My freedom will not be voluntarily diminished if some SHTF situation arises. 

I know you're not asking me to join your group. I'm just voicing my opinion and the opinion you will hear from a few others.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

TheLazyL said:


> It is understood that any and all equipment, food, firearms and any other material the Family Unit brought into the MAG belongs to the Family Unit that brought it into the MAG.
> 
> It is understood that any and all equipment, food, firearms and any other material the Family Unit brought into the MAG shall be shared with the other members of the MAG.


You would also need to clarify these contradicting statements.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

labotomi said:


> I'm just curious why anyone thinks they can dictate what someone buys concerning their preps. I understand that you're trying to set this up as a pseudo democratic group with the family unit votes and all but you've already set up rules that many will not agree upon or submit. The freedom people here value is what you're asking them to give up with your "agreement".
> 
> Take the AA batteries and optics issue brought up previously... your answer is for someone to buy an Trijicon. That's funny. I could buy an off brand and enough button cell batteries to last several thousand years for the cost of a single Trijicon. Yet this is the solution you propose because of a stubbornness to stick with enveloop AA batteries. These types of things would need a vote to change. See any problems?
> 
> ...


It isn't a question of dictating, but of agreeing. If you can't agree you probably shouldn't join the group.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

Geek999 said:


> It isn't a question of dictating, but of agreeing. If you can't agree you probably shouldn't join the group.


You completely missed my point. However, with rules already set up beforehand, it is in fact dictating with the remote chance of voting a change once established.

FYI. I already have a group. There's no "agreement" and since we've counted on each other for decades, I think we'll be fine without one.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

TheLazyL said:


> B. High output tactical flashlight. This is the ONLY exception to the AA battery rule. May use 18650 Lithium-Ion rechargeable battery(s). If 18650 then a 12 DC charger is required.


Another example;
Why not 14500 batteries instead of 18650? In just about every device, you can run AA batteries if you don't have 14500s. With 18650s, you're probably out of luck.

Would it take a vote for someone to use common sense?


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

labotomi said:


> You completely missed my point. However, with rules already set up beforehand, it is in fact dictating with the remote chance of voting a change once established.
> 
> FYI. I already have a group. There's no "agreement" and since we've counted on each other for decades, I think we'll be fine without one.


With a group that has been together for decades you have agreement(s) though perhaps not written as a formal contract. With a group being formed there needs to be a fair amount of discussion and agreement things progess too far. Documenting what is agreed is reasonable.

In my case, I don't have a group, but I do have extended fanily. If we wanted to link up with another family, we would need something like this just to be sure we were all on the same page.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

labotomi said:


> I'm just curious why anyone thinks they can dictate what someone buys concerning their preps....


When a person elects to join an organization they also agree to that organizations by-laws. If you don't agree to the by-laws then don't join. Your choice.

If you rather wear a blue and pink poke a dotted suit with a big red nose and floppy shoes then you should join Clown Actors Guild and not the Marines.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

I guess ill add all of that to the list of reasons why ive not joined a group...


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

TheLazyL said:


> When a person elects to join an organization they also agree to that organizations by-laws. If you don't agree to the by-laws then don't join. Your choice.


You don't have a group, you have a set of restrictions that you feel will be best... Decided upon by you.

You're not asking anyone to join a group, but rather form one of your design.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

Geek999 said:


> With a group that has been together for decades you have agreement(s) though perhaps not written as a formal contract.


Not at all. Certainly nothing like what's being proposed here.

We do what's right by us and are grateful for whatever help we get.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

labotomi said:


> You don't have a group, you have a set of restrictions that you feel will be best... Decided upon by you.
> 
> You're not asking anyone to join a group, but rather form one of your design.


You seem to be assuming the agreement is non-negotiable. I didn't get that impression from anything the OP said.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

labotomi said:


> Not at all. Certainly nothing like what's being proposed here.
> 
> We do what's right by us and are grateful for whatever help we get.


That's great, but few of us are so fortunate as to have a long standing group that has already worked out most of it's issues.

If I was going to form a group with another family, we would need a lot of discussion to see if we were in agreement on lot's of issues.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

Geek999 said:


> You seem to be assuming the agreement is non-negotiable. I didn't get that impression from anything the OP said.


You seem to be assuming that the agreement is negotiable. Most if not all the rules are absolute.

just a couple quick examples


> 3. All battery powered electronics must accept rechargeable Sanyo Eneloop AA batteries. Eneloop batteries are designed to hold 75% of their charge for 5 years.
> 
> B. High output tactical flashlight. *This is the ONLY exception to the AA battery rule.* May use 18650 Lithium-Ion rechargeable battery(s). If 18650 then a 12 DC charger is required.


Not only very specific, but then reiterated that there is only one single exception.



> 2. Rifle. AR design chambered for NATO 5.56.


I don't think this description leaves much room for alternatives.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

labotomi said:


> You seem to be assuming that the agreement is negotiable. Most if not all the rules are absolute.
> 
> just a couple quick examples
> Not only very specific, but then reiterated that there is only one single exception.
> ...


Any agreement is negotiable until it is finallized and signed by the parties. For example, let's say LazyL wanted me to join his group and presented me with the proposed agreement. I might say okay, but I want an AK instead of an AR. He can either agree and amend the proposed agreement, or not.

We coulld go back and forth on every clause until we either reach agreement or conclude that we just don't agree and should not enter an agreement. In fact that process should be encouraged to insure that all parties really do agree and aren't just bllindly signing something.

I agree that he is very specific on the equipment, which is part of why I suggested moving the equipment list to an Appendix and having a process for changing the equipment list. I think it is clear he cares about having standardized equipment, but I see no reason to think the equipment list is non-negotiable.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

Geek999 said:


> I see no reason to think the equipment list is non-negotiable.


What do you see that makes you think it is negotiable?


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

You know. I really don't care anyway. 

I think the sensationalized version of what may happen after SHTF with militarized compounds and play soldiers to be fantasy at best.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

labotomi said:


> You know. I really don't care anyway.
> 
> I think the sensationalized version of what may happen after SHTF with militarized compounds and play soldiers to be fantasy at best.


I hope you are right.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

Based on what ive read about MAGs, it seems to me that most people tend to focus on skill sets and material. I think the value of personality is neglected. 

Ive worked with guys that have a gob of tools, but who were themselves complete tools to work with, insufferable *******es big on ego but always bitching about everything.

Ive worked with guys with a lot of skill, which they lord over everyone, refuse to teach, and are just generaly ****y.

In my experience, the best people to work with are those with a positive attitude, who refuse to quit, who keep trying no matter what. These guys often dont have the most kewl toys, nor are the most highly skilled. They make mistakes. They keep going. No matter what. These are the people id like around me when shit gets real.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

FatTire said:


> Based on what ive read about MAGs, it seems to me that most people tend to focus on skill sets and material. I think the value of personality is neglected.
> 
> Ive worked with guys that have a gob of tools, but who were themselves complete tools to work with, insufferable *******es big on ego but always bitching about everything.
> 
> ...


If you were to try to form a MAG, presumably you wouldn't even bring the subject up with someone unless they cleared that set of criteria. On the other hand if you knew someone who you wanted to form a MAG with, how would you go about it? Who does what? Who brings what? How do you end it if it doesn't work out?

All LazyL seems to be doing is trying to figure that stuff out and write it down. That strikes me as a good thing to do. I've thought about the problem a bit, but since I haven't had anyone I wanted to team up with it hasn't been a pressing issue.


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## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

If you are setting up a MAG planning ahead pays off. As my family and friends are buying guns and ammo having everyone pick up AR rifles and 9MMM pistols helps limit the various caliber and parts to stock up on. This works much better for organizing before buying so everyone stays on the same page.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

mojo4 said:


> If you are setting up a MAG planning ahead pays off. As my family and friends are buying guns and ammo having everyone pick up AR rifles and 9MMM pistols helps limit the various caliber and parts to stock up on. This works much better for organizing before buying so everyone stays on the same page.


Exactly. I write stuff down just to help out my own memory. Throw another person in the mix who remembers differently than I do and we'll wind up with lots of soap and no food.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

At this point i confess to being curious if anyone actually is in a MAG that doesnt consist entirely of family..


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

FatTire said:


> At this point i confess to being curious if anyone actually is in a MAG that doesnt consist entirely of family..


I'm not sure I'd allow (most) family into my group. I know what their strengths and weaknesses are, and I moved 500 miles away from family politics so I could live in peace, not be in the middle of that BS.

People have different views on family, mine are probably not the same as everyone elses.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

It has been said before and I believe it, when SHTF, the lone wolf will not survive, or will have a tough go of it anyway. Being in a group has aspects that can mean survival. It depends on the strength and wisdom of the group and its members. It needs to be organized with mutual agreements, or it is going to be a rough go of it.

Like everyone, in my experiences, I have found that I have worked with and known some wonderful people, and like everyone, I have worked with and known some real asshats.

Have you ever worked on a committee or project for hours and hours and some jerk comes in, drops a disapproval bomb and blows the whole thing up? I have and that is when the committee stopped working on the project. 

Have you ever worked with someone or known someone who thinks that you can do all the work and they will pick whatever the best fruits are they want from your labors? 

Have you ever worked with or known someone who just can't do that or just can't do this because they are above it and you, but if there are any benefits or prizes, they are the first to get them?

Have you ever had someone ask if they can get a ride or join you in something you had planned, and you tell them they can, but with a caveat or two. They agree, but when it is really happening and they are getting their part, they want to dismiss your caveats? 

Some people want to be special and to be treated special and to be above others in how others are treated. 

And then there are the people who will bully their way to get what they want. They have their fits until others cave or quit.

I am sure there are many more examples of people who want to be special and can foil lots of other people's efforts. 

Although I have no MAG group, I think that without a pre-conceived set of guidelines or agreements, one or two people can make a whole bunch of people miserable or endanger the group. The person who is ill prepared, argumentative or doesn't get it, can or will be a mill stone around the neck of the group.

I do not have much experience with military people, but someone needs to know how to run the show, take the lead, make hard decisions, know the needs and how to get them met. Military people are used to rank and some of us have no experience with that. In certain situations, someone needs to give orders and others need to follow through for the good of the group. 

Like many of you, I do not like being bossed around, controlled (Ha! not much chance of that), or treated like they are less than others. Being respected is important for all and without understandings, some will not feel fully respected. 

Agreements are important, but everyone's input is important as well.


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

weedygarden said:


> I do not have much experience with military people, but someone needs to know how to run the show, take the lead, make hard decisions, know the needs and how to get them met. Military people are used to rank and some of us have no experience with that. In certain situations, someone needs to give orders and others need to follow through for the good of the group.
> 
> Like many of you, I do not like being bossed around, controlled (Ha! not much chance of that), or treated like they are less than others. Being respected is important for all and without understandings, some will not feel fully respected.
> 
> Agreements are important, but everyone's input is important as well.


I agree with you, and I'd also take it a few levels further.

There's a reason why "farm" things are done a certain way... I do fairly well at what I do for a living, can I offer something of value to change how farming is done? yeahhhhhhh... NO. the rancher probably figured out a long time ago that it's better to put that piece of tack on that wall instead of this wall, because the barn has a leaky roof that would cause rot...

what is absolutely disrespectful to me is "because I said so..."

Well, you're not my mom. and the second time I stopped listening to that BS was the day of my official discharge from the Corps... so, "because I said so" without telling me why it's important I do it that way... it can go a lot of ways, depending on what I'm being asked/told to do... and some of the replies might be "F off" not doing it.

too many people get caught up in their own importance and forget they are just one voice in a community.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

FatTire said:


> At this point i confess to being curious if anyone actually is in a MAG that doesnt consist entirely of family..


Mine consists entirely of family, though I have considered the idea to the point of actually discussing whether to approach specific people with my son. We have not approached anyone yet.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

FatTire said:


> At this point i confess to being curious if anyone actually is in a MAG that doesnt consist entirely of family..


 Less than 1/4 is family.


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## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

labotomi said:


> Less than 1/4 is family.


Your group sounds interesting. Can you tell us more without violating your own OPSEC? I'd like to know how it was originally formed, how many people are in it, what your commitments are, etc. It sounds like some of what you have done would be helpful for those trying to form groups.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

Dakine said:


> ...what is absolutely disrespectful to me is "because I said so..." I stopped listening to that BS was the day of my official discharge from the Corps... so, "because I said so" without telling me why it's important I do it that way...


I'll agree with you in principle.

I prefer explaining the "why". I believe it will help the new employee understand why certain things are to be completed the way I ask for them to be done.

Some employees object to an explanation, do it their way and then make excuses for their failure. Their attitude doesn't stop me from explaining the next "why" to them. Some wised up and listen and some were eventually fired.

But there times when there isn't time for a explanation of "why". The rope broke. The piano is falling. I told Obama to, "MOVE!". Obama's face turns bright red and he tells me, "I am the President of the United States and NOBODY TELLS ME WHAT TO DO!"

And before I can start to explain the "why" Celestial Beings are looking for Obama's name on the admittance list for his eternity residence.


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