# The failure of the MAG and the BOL



## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

For the past 5 years I have associated with a group of people who attempted to become a MAG. ( Mutual Assistance Group) During this time I worked hard to help improve the property the MAG was to use as a BOL ( Bug Out Location). 

This property was owned by one of the members and was a location away from major cities and also was paid off. The idea was that each member would do his or her best to make it to the BOL and work as a community to survive in the event of a SHTF scenario.

Each member had the other's back and would pull their own weight to be self sufficient. Each member or family would bring their own food to store there as well as ammo, arms, tools and other items to help make the BOL sustainable. Different members had different skill sets and would have different jobs as well as cross train others to do each others job.

Over the last 5 years I have realized that this idea is a failure. While it is a great idea on paper it is not a workable solution. As members come into the MAG they are very gung ho. Some members stay for years and work towards the goal of self sufficiency. Others come in and realize how hard the work is and leave fairly quickly. Some never bring any food to store. Some just like the firearms and shooting part or the training but don't show up to work in the garden or to build the food storage room etc. Some decide to leave and build their own BOL. 

In the end as members leave and new members are brought in to replace them the OPSEC of the BOL is lost. Down the road there are so many ex members that the BOL is no longer a safe place. 
I have realized therefore that the idea of a MAG on a BOL owned by one person and used by all members is a failure.
I can see no way around this problem.


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## cnsper (Sep 20, 2012)

silence the ex members... 

I would worry about those not storing their own food more than ex members. They are going to be with you and they will be hungry.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

LastOutlaw said:


> Over the last 5 years I have realized that this idea is a failure. While it is a great idea on paper it is not a workable solution


On the brite side, it does seem like a fabulous way of getting the land owner's BOL established & all that work done for free by other people. :ignore: Wish I'd have thought of it myself!


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

tsrwivey said:


> On the brite side, it does seem like a fabulous way of getting the land owner's BOL established & all that work done for free by other people. :ignore: Wish I'd have thought of it myself!


Ahh yes it does doesn't it? Except for one thing. All of those people who worked there or have been there and didn't prep are likely coming back and when they do they won't come alone. They will bring more people with them who also didn't prepare. Not to mention all the people who they have talked to about the place over the years who also do not prep.

There are lots of places doing the exact same MAG type of thing all over the place. All of these locations are vulnerable to attack and being overrun at some point by the hordes. Now if this location is your home (which most are) you have endangered your entire family and your future of preparedness. 
You have defeated the purpose and rather than having a safe place you now have a very very unsafe place. In the end the price is way too high.

Possibly a better idea is to only network with other awake and aware landowners in your area. Then each has their own vested interest in keeping the security of the whole endeavor. This would be people who also prep but live on their own land. You store yours on your land and I store mine on my land. We can help each other out with projects when the need arises or share equipment etc. but in the end yours is yours and mine is mine. If crap happens we can all back up against the wall together if need be.

As posted in the thread FARM OPSEC (http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f23/farm-opsec-23316/#post423201), defense of a property is something that rarely can be done alone. If you think you can defend your family yourself you are sadly mistaken. Everyone will need friends or family or both to achieve security.

An even better idea is to have another location where all of you landowners who have networked together can back into together if the need arises. Lets say High ground somewhere that is defensible.


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

cnsper said:


> silence the ex members...
> I would worry about those not storing their own food more than ex members. They are going to be with you and they will be hungry.


Quite often the ex members are the ones who are not storing food.

You might be surprised at how many people who claim to be preppers are not storing food. 
I would bet that only 1/10th of the members of this forum actually are seriously prepping or storing food at the very least.
Storing food is the most overwhelming task you can imagine when you first start prepping. The though of putting away years worth of food seems impossible when actually when done a bit at a time is very easy. Many many supposed preppers have nothing put away or almost nothing.
You would be surprised at how many have lots of guns but no food.
Guns are fun to them...storing food is not.

I have even seen some who have 3 or 4 dogs and have food put away for the dogs but not for themselves.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

> The failure of the MAG


This is a very often talked about thing but I have always wondered how it would ever work out in real life. I have always said the only truly dependable MAG is close family. This is because even if they did not prep most would always include their family after the event anyway.
People do buy multiple guns when one less gun would mean $500 or more could be put into food. Even $500 in food is quite a bit. 
To everyone who has a mag composed of friends and acquaintances I say Good Luck. Even if you have known them for years and/or work with them daily you seldom know their secrets. And they themselves might not even know how they will react to an extreme change from an event.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

I met a man who has a MAG. He is older but definitely is a leader. He set out some requirements for his members, and I understand there were maybe 20 or so families involved. I have no idea of all of his requirements, but one was that everyone have the same gun. (every person) I didn't ask him what that gun was, but he wanted everyone to have the same gun in case something happened, they could have parts to repair. He himself has several of them. He also had a requirement that each member have x amount of food. 

He has two pieces of land or property. One is closer to a small city and the other piece is miles away from the first, and is well developed, by him and his family, on one of the local lakes. His MAG members has never seen the second place, only his family has. They would go to the first place on weekends for exercises and discussions and more. 

After working on this for years, he set up a visit to each family, to physically see and inventory their preps, to see who was really taking care of business. I'll bet he had a clue. After visiting the families, he dismissed most of them from his group. They were busy buying all the modern toys and living the fun modern life, but only a handful had really listened to his counsel and to follow his requirements of having x amount of food stored and other preps. Some had none.

How did I first come to know of this guy? I was a regular to my local LDS Cannery and they all knew I was not an LDS member. I would go with my plan of canning x amount of beans, or oatmeal, or whatever was on my list. They knew me and I knew all of them. And they kept asking me, "Are you one of 'First name, last name's' group?" No, I never met the guy. One day I was at a local preparedness store, where I do not go very often, and I was talking to one of the guys who works there. I mentioned this guy and asked him if he knew this guy. Come to find out, he was in the store. I was introduced to him and visited with him for quite a while.

So this guy has been in construction and has lots of large equipment. This is how he could build his own place easier than I could with a shovel. When you could check out the canners from the cannery, he had one for years. He told me he is set for his family for a very long time. He said, you can never have too much salt. I have an image of a man made cave filled to the max with buckets of salt and other preps, and cases of food that he canned via the canner from the cannery. I think he told me he had more than 10 years worth of food stored for his family (married children and their children).

His plan was very wise, to have an intermediary location, where people could meet up, and he could show them the rest of the way when the time comes and if they qualify. Those who do not qualify to go all the way, could hang out at the first location. It is in a beautiful valley where there is some resort activity. Gardening could happen there and probably in the more remote location as well.

I have often thought of all the loose lips who get involved in a MAG. You think you have 10 people in your group, and in a SHTF situation, hundreds would show up. "I couldn't leave my parents (brother, sister, family, good buddy, cousins...) behind." A years worth of food becomes two weeks worth. The founders, developers and supporters will be expected to take care of the whiny, the weak, the sick, the princesses, sit around and play all day every day types. I have worked with way too many of that type. They always want and expect the benefits or to be first, but always have endless excuses why they cannot do the real work.

Even if people leave or are kicked out, this will always be their go to place in SHTF, either with force or charm.


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## readytogo (Apr 6, 2013)

In order for a society to work there has to be order, trust, leadership and rules in even is a small groups this rules have to applied in order to survived a BOL /Group should be a private affair with limited membership of close well known participants or family members, the less the better and there has to be Trust or failure will be without question the end. My group consist of two families ,well prepared for the many foreseeable events in our area ,a friendship of over 40 years ,I have to said no more.


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## bunkerbob (Sep 29, 2009)

I sponsor a MAG group, the leader I suppose. Have so for about 5 of my 40+ years of prepping.
I wish I had an answer to all of your questions and fears. 
I personally have enough preps for 20+ for about a year, 5 acres with an orchard, sustainable large vegetable and medicinal herb garden, an off-grid CRBN protected home, a well, 10,000 gallons of stored water, a diesel tractor, stored fuel( gas, diesel and propane) A partially buried 40' container for the groups preps, with its own solar, water and AC power supplied from the property, hospital beds, and advanced first-aid supplies. Along with extensive CRBN gear.
And I suppose some of you know about my underground endeavors as well.
I mentioned the above to say I already have enough for all and their families and then some.
They also are required to personally store 90 days preps of all kinds on shelves they have provided in the container. 
Most have stayed the course, met every month for classes and to help out the groups storage area needs. Yes they have all helped around the property at one time or another without me asking.
I also have written requirements, an oath, mission statement and founding principals for all who join after months of interviews and scrutiny. 

BB


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

I suppose a MAG with a BOL could work with a well thought out plan. One requirement I would think would be that every member have skin in the game. A monetary buy-in of some kind that is not refundable. A possibility of maybe labor exchanged instead of some/all of the buy-in. 
With any endeavor there will always be bumps in the road. It could work and I'm reasonably sure there are many around the nation that are functional. I'm just not a trusting enough guy.
We have just close family. One son's best friend who we have known for twenty years and who would often spend the summers with us was/is included. Lately this kid (he's thirty something now) has taken to drink and has changed. He lives near my son(and used to live with him). I trust my son totally with any decision he makes when the time comes (if it ever does) whether to bring his friend or not. My son knows I will back any decision he makes. The kid was like family to us and we are still close and with his parents (who live half way across the country). The moral is anyone can change and not all changes are for the better. Also other than The Shadow we don't know what lurks in the heart of men.


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## AmishHeart (Jun 10, 2016)

I read a book called, "Alpha Farm", and I like the way that was set up better. (Independent farms like an underground type railroad set up along the way; one stop possibly leading to another) Warning: it's more of a "Prepper Chick" book, so you men may find it boring. I can't wait till the next one comes out. Great wife gift.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

weedygarden said:


> I met a man who has a MAG. He is older ...a leader. ... requirements for his members...20 or so families involved...everyone to have the same gun in case something...He has two pieces of land or property. One is closer to a small city and the other piece is miles away from the first, and is well developed...local LDS Cannery...they kept asking me, "Are you one of 'First name, last name's' group?" ... this guy has been in construction and has lots of large equipment... He told me he is set for his family for a very long time. ...


He sure has rotten OSPEC!


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

TheLazyL said:


> He sure has rotten OSPEC!


Maybe, but who could find him when SHTF?


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## Balls004 (Feb 28, 2015)

It's too bad that MAG's essentially fail for the same general reasons that the rest of society fails. That is the reason that we have never joined a MAG or other group. The few people that we have understandings about supporting each other all rely on their own preps and plans, and any co-operation between us is set by the circumstances and need to help each other. No rules, just our conscience.

The people who are willing to work, save, and contribute to the betterment of their community or society always seem to be over run by those who want more than they are willing to work for. They are nothing more than parasites. 

The parasites are going to continue to feed off of us, until we either succumb or we are forced to take our anthelmintic (anti-parasite medicine). I'm about ready for a dose, speaking for myself.


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## crabapple (Jan 1, 2012)

We have five family's on 30 acres,each family owns 4.99 acres, I however own 9.98 because I bought my sister lot after she past.
We all grow a vegetable garden, but some grow fruit & nut trees too.
Some raise birds, some pigs, no large animals as of yet.
One know meds & nutrition, herbs & vitamins.
One is a builder,one is a metal worker/tool maker.
one electrician, one understand computer & solar panels.
We are looking at "the earthship" but no plans to build at this time.
The design works with a greenhouse & solar power, cool in hot weather & warm in cold weather.
Now we have 6 people at the site now & 12 who can move in as needed.
We have clay & sand for firing pots, some stones, wood & bamboo for fire & lumber.
We collect aluminum, copper,brass & steel for forging.
We will need horses, cows & goats & rabbits, a fish pond/pool.
We have 4 wells, but none are hand or solar operated as of yet.
We have weapons, but no gun smith, just a mill,lathe & small shop tools.
Weapon repair is our greatest weakness, hope to change that.


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

crabapple said:


> We have five family's on 30 acres,each family owns 4.99 acres, I however own 9.98 because I bought my sister lot after she past.
> We all grow a vegetable garden, but some grow fruit & nut trees too.
> Some raise birds, some pigs, no large animals as of yet.
> One know meds & nutrition, herbs & vitamins.
> ...


So lets say another member passes away and their brother from out of state comes in and inherits that property. Now this family member who inherits is not a prepper and wants to sell it. Or he does sell it to a liberal who wants to have partys all the time or orgys or whatever.
Then what?
Or say... one of the families has a falling out with his spouse and they get a divorce. She or he is pissy and really wasn't on board. She/he decides they want the land and wins it in court. That person decides to sell it to someone who doesn't believe in any of it and wants to build a big house with a circular driveway there and have all of his golf buddies over for beers every weekend.
Then what?
Or lets say one of the families decides that nothing is going to happen and they quit prepping. They no longer want to work on their land or grow a garden or participate. They then tell everyone around town that you all are storing food or have a weapons cache or something along those lines.
Isnt your OPSEC blown?
Is it different than a BOL who loses members?


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## OutInTheWoods (Jun 13, 2016)

Many of these issues is why you do your best to keep your MAG within a family. Getting 'outsiders' involved brings in too many hassles and potential problems - OPSEC being one of the biggest.


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

OutInTheWoods said:


> Many of these issues is why you do your best to keep your MAG within a family. Getting 'outsiders' involved brings in too many hassles and potential problems - OPSEC being one of the biggest.


That is easy to say if you have a large family that is all located in the same area. However many families are spread out all over the place. A lot of families don't see eye to eye either.

This scenario could play out a number of different ways within a family as well and OPSEC will be blown as well:

"Or say... one of the family members has a falling out with his spouse and they get a divorce. She or he is pissy and really wasn't on board. She/he decides they want the land and wins it in court or decides to tell everyone in town what a bunch of gun toting ammo and food hoarding whack jobs you all are.
Id say OPSEC can be blown in a family as well.


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## crabapple (Jan 1, 2012)

LastOutlaw said:


> So lets say another member passes away and their brother from out of state comes in and inherits that property. Now this family member who inherits is not a prepper and wants to sell it. Or he does sell it to a liberal who wants to have partys all the time or orgys or whatever.
> Then what?
> Or say... one of the families has a falling out with his spouse and they get a divorce. She or he is pissy and really wasn't on board. She/he decides they want the land and wins it in court. That person decides to sell it to someone who doesn't believe in any of it and wants to build a big house with a circular driveway there and have all of his golf buddies over for beers every weekend.
> Then what?
> ...


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## AmishHeart (Jun 10, 2016)

We've been through the earthships in Santa Fe, New Mexico a few times. They are interesting, but sooooo pricey for being built with tires and old bottles. They do have a homey feel inside, and an unusual beauty. I did notice that all the people in that earthship community mostly stay inside their houses...no gardens, not even trees in the landscaping outside. That would drive me nuts!


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

C.A. it sounds like you have a real good thing going there. I'm envious. We are taking a different approach at this point after the failure of the BOL and Mag thing.

We own land on high ground in the mountains way off grid. (Our BOL) We have a friend who is like minded that helped us find this land. He also owns land in the same area within 1 mile of ours (His BOL). We also know a couple others very close on the high ground.(their BOLs) 

He and I have both discussed the "failure of the MAG and BOL" scenario.

We also own a homestead on flat ground that is very sustainable. (Our BIL) My friend who also owns on the high ground near us also owns property within 1 1/2 hours from our homestead and his land is sustainable as well (His BIL) .

We have decided to find others who own homestead type land that is sustainable to network with. These others can purchase high ground in the same area as ours to be their BOLs.

Land there is pretty affordable as it is way off grid.

In essence we will network with anyone within 2 hours of our homestead who are like minded and own their own sustainable land (BILs). Each owns their own homestead (BIL) and is responsible for their own preps and sustainability. 

If shtf and any of us must leave our homestead we can leapfrog to the next homestead and slowly work our way to our high ground off grid properties that are very close to each other.

In the end each owns his own BIL and BOL thereby cementing the network and because each has a stake of their own it cements OPSEC.

So for now this is the only scenario for non family members to viably work together as a cohesive group yet still remain secure in their own ownership and independence that we can see.

One benefit that I enjoy now is I have a real nice off grid location that I enjoy every other weekend or whenever I want like a vacation property or hunting lease.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

weedygarden said:


> Maybe, but who could find him when SHTF?


You or anyone from the local LDS Cannery could follow him today back to his not so Top Secret BOL. And then later when SHTF you know where to go.


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

LazyL... believe me... the neighbor, the sherriff, the ups driver, fedx, the mailman, the meter readers all know who he is and what he is doing and where his properties are.

I think UPS drivers know a hell of a lot about us all.
At one point I ordered 1000 rounds of ammo. 
When UPS delivered it I wasn't home. My son was visiting and took the delivery. When he lifted the box he said "Holy crap that's heavy... wonder whats in it?"
Older UPS driver said "Thats ammo boy!"
LOL


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## tc556guy (Apr 28, 2011)

LastOutlaw said:


> Over the last 5 years I have realized that this idea is a failure. While it is a great idea on paper it is not a workable solution. As members come into the MAG they are very gung ho. Some members stay for years and work towards the goal of self sufficiency. Others come in and realize how hard the work is and leave fairly quickly. Some never bring any food to store. Some just like the firearms and shooting part or the training but don't show up to work in the garden or to build the food storage room etc. Some decide to leave and build their own BOL.
> 
> In the end as members leave and new members are brought in to replace them the OPSEC of the BOL is lost. Down the road there are so many ex members that the BOL is no longer a safe place.
> I have realized therefore that the idea of a MAG on a BOL owned by one person and used by all members is a failure.
> I can see no way around this problem.


Sounds like just about any organization
Not sure how to handle the issue of ex-members.
Without a doubt it could be a problem.
The ex-members who went on to build their own BOL, I wouldn't hold that against them.
If they do show up after a disaster, it might be because they couldn't make it to their own new BOL and you're a fall back destination.
Would you hold that against them?
Regardless, any past members are a known quantity and might still be of use even if they do show up..but they'll be more of a probationary member if they're re-assimilated into the group.


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## weedygarden (Apr 27, 2011)

TheLazyL said:


> You or anyone from the local LDS Cannery could follow him today back to his not so Top Secret BOL. And then later when SHTF you know where to go.


Okay, you could. He owns a home in a large city where he spends most of his time. Then he has his place close to a small city of around 5,000 which is 150 miles away where his MAG meets up. And then he has his place that is his ultimate BOL, which is outside that location where he keeps the bulk of his preps.

This is not at all like me with one location and one address where Emergency Essentials delivers.

My guess is that there is no mailing address at the BOL. With his large equipment, I'll bet they have set up ways to create barriers, etc. to prevent visitors. I'll also bet that all of his deliveries go to his home address in the big city.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

weedygarden said:


> Okay, you could. He owns a home in a large city where he spends most of his time. Then he has his place close to a small city of around 5,000 which is 150 miles away where his MAG meets up. And then he has his place that is his ultimate BOL, which is outside that location where he keeps the bulk of his preps.
> 
> This is not at all like me with one location and one address where Emergency Essentials delivers.
> 
> My guess is that there is no mailing address at the BOL. With his large equipment, I'll bet they have set up ways to create barriers, etc. to prevent visitors. I'll also bet that all of his deliveries go to his home address in the big city.


We'll make it simpler. At work we utilize self power GPS trackers for when a employee is suspected of not being where they are suppose to be. Tracker under the hood or on the frame of their work vehicle is placed without the knowledge of the employee. A week later we pull the tracker off and with the help of google maps we now know every place that vehicle has been and how long the stops where.

At the first opportunity place a similar Tracker on BOL Owner's vehicle. Over a period of time his primary BOL will be revealed.

What I was trying to convey in my original reply was (IMHO) too many mouths are aware of what the Gentleman was doing, hence my comment of lack of OPSEC.


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

Socialism sometimes works within a family but rarely does it work outside that venue. 

The afore mentioned six lots of family with each left to their own devices on a day too day basis is likely to pull together in a crisis. The same is true in an area where you have neighbors that have known each other for years or even generations. Trying to recreate that with a group of strangers off the street is quite a large endeavor.

If someone sells out their property then it may go to someone that is not like minded. Even so much of the preps will remain. The well or other water source, the soil amendments, and so many other resources will remain. While the new owner may not have a years worth of grub they are likely to join in on mutual chores if things go bad. 

I'd be less concerned with the people that dropped out to start their own BOL than the ones that just stopped. The latter are likely to show up with little or nothing while the former will make every endeavor to bring as much as possible.


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## Von Helman (Oct 31, 2009)

Lastoutlaw, 

Great Thread and great points you’ve made regarding the MAGS and BOL. Your’e also right, forget about the general population, there will be A LOT of so called preppers who will find themselves overwhelmed and drastically unprepared who come up “short” 

The mistake many preppers make is they are not actually living what they preach or doing what is needed to find flaws in their plans. You really need to live the rough survival life for a while to get a good grip on what you’ll really need. Apart from food and water, I wonder how many people have a machete or a sharpening stone. Or a few assorted empty buckets or other such supplies you will need. Do you have a way to heat a pan of water or a grill and camp fire surface you can heat on (and a supply of dry matches to last a year or longer)? Do you have a shovel, hoe, pick, ax, hammer, pliers, mallet, etc? What about a few tarps and rope of various sizes and lengths. There are so many more things I could list and these are all going to be things you’ll need. 

The harsh reality is regardless of how prepared anyone is (including me) there will be major surprises along the way and you’ll quickly realize you don’t have everything you need to make it. 

Add the MAG and a compromised BOL and your problems have only doubled. 
In regards to BOL I can say from personal experience that no matter how remote and isolated you think you are you will find people coming across your area even if you own the land. Therefore consider your BOL compromised from day one and be ready to have a plan to always be working security.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Semi anonymous co-op ing is about as close to this mess as I'd dare.dude's going to have one huge target on him and his come SHTF.better tell him to invest in land mines.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

Our intent is to be self sufficient & we are working towards that goal. Our adult kids & their families will come but we have no group. We do live on a dead end street on the river way out in the country. Our neighbors all have the typical country skills, they can garden, hunt, fish, clean & cook game, etc. There's probably 50 head of cattle on the road. There is no community water where we live so everyone has a well. What they do lack is seed & they probably don't have much food storage. We can garden year round here so we can get up & running pretty soon. We keep a lot of heirloom seed & materials for making rabbit cages. Our plan is to give our neighbors a start of rabbits & seed, maybe even chickens & goats. Maybe we could even trap baby wild hogs & domesticate some. None of the neighbors know anything about our preps & some of them may be preppers.


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

Like TS, We are working toward self sufficiency and we don't know anyone near our homestead that is a prepper but we do think many around our area are pretty well set up with gardens, water wells, livestock etc. I'm sure pretty much everyone has weapons but not sure how much ammo. I will say that the BOL location in the mountains is seeing more and more prepper types buying land or looking for land to buy. We are networking with those we know. Most who own land up there are weekend visitors who use it to ride 4 wheeler or hunt deer and you rarely see them except during holidays or deer hunting season. Many who own and bought years ago are never seen at all any longer there at all. (Lots of dilapidated small cabins or shelters falling down in ruin) For those weekend visitors the thrill has worn off.

I would guess if crap went down that these areas would get locked down by locals and entry into these areas would be seriously limited.


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## terri9630 (Jun 2, 2016)

LastOutlaw said:


> Like TS, We are working toward self sufficiency and we don't know anyone near our homestead that is a prepper but we do think many around our area are pretty well set up with gardens, water wells, livestock etc. I'm sure pretty much everyone has weapons but not sure how much ammo. I will say that the BOL location in the mountains is seeing more and more prepper types buying land or looking for land to buy. We are networking with those we know. Most who own land up there are weekend visitors who use it to ride 4 wheeler or hunt deer and you rarely see them except during holidays or deer hunting season. Many who own and bought years ago are never seen at all any longer there at all. (Lots of dilapidated small cabins or shelters falling down in ruin) For those weekend visitors the thrill has worn off.
> 
> I would guess if crap went down that these areas would get locked down by locals and entry into these areas would be seriously limited.


That sounds like the area we bought into last year.


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