# Arch Steel Building as an underground bunker



## MadMartiggan

I am thinking about using an Arched Steel Building (Quonset Hut) within a "Box" created with 2' x2' x 4' concrete blocks stacked around in on 3 1/2 sides then fill box with gravel and drain fields then use sprayed concrete to create a supported shell on top then covered with dirt to hide completely underground. This creates a 30' x 50 free span "Cave". The entrance will have a walkway fronted by the block also but have room to bring supplies, furniture and maybe a small vehicle inside and would be grounded and metal also when shut. Questions are: 1. If I ground the shell and have at least 4ft on dirt and concrete on top would it become a "Faraday Cage"? or would I need an additional inside in the event of EMP?
2. If I setup a propane generator system how do I stiffle the noise? 3. How do I set up power or wind/Solar power that won't fry in an EMP or one that will blow but not affect the other backup system?.
Thanks for any input
MadMartiggan :scratch


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## LincTex

That's ambitious.

Do you have the $50,000+ to do all of this?


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## FrankW

Mad:

if your systems are switched off in the unlikely event of a major EMP that affects your location they will be safe.

Just dont switch on your systrejms until you need them is a very easy requirement to fulfill.


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## BillS

You'd need adequate ventilation or you'd suffocate. Depending on what you come up with it could be very difficult to have enough extra air to heat it. And if you have obvious ventilation pipes it's no longer hidden either.

I'd rather have it above ground with shutters that you could close and lock for security.


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## DKRinAK

(scratches head)

Why not use something MADE to be buried?



















Steel culvert, made to be buried - can be had in different sizes, contact a local road contractor. Large concrete pipe may work as well, putting in a 'floor', use the space under for storage.

Tell your friends it's a root celler or tornado hidey hole.


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## kappydell

DKRinAK has it right. The earth arching, if you bury it sufficiently deep will make it very blast-pressure-proof. (See 'nuclear war survival skills' at www.nukepills.com/docs/nuclear_war_survival_skills.pdf) I know of several who have made their blast shelters this way, building floors on the bottom and using the area below for storage, without costing as much as other shelters.


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## IlliniWarrior

lots of books on earthern homes available ....you can quikly see your problems .... if something like your design was feasible they would be building that way .....


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## MadMartiggan

BillS said:


> You'd need adequate ventilation or you'd suffocate. Depending on what you come up with it could be very difficult to have enough extra air to heat it. And if you have obvious ventilation pipes it's no longer hidden either.
> 
> I'd rather have it above ground with shutters that you could close and lock for security.


I have thought of that, The area is in a wooded area so the shafts will be horizonal out and vertical beside a tree and camouflaged so that the intake and out take are in the tree tops.


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## MadMartiggan

DKRinAK said:


> (scratches head)
> 
> Why not use something MADE to be buried?
> 
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> Steel culvert, made to be buried - can be had in different sizes, contact a local road contractor. Large concrete pipe may work as well, putting in a 'floor', use the space under for storage.
> 
> Tell your friends it's a root celler or tornado hidey hole.


Yes the steel arches you showed are similar to what I was inquiring about but larger. It will be 30' x 40' x 12' high on a concrete slab and ground the four corners. Got the building for under $5000.00 and the blocks will run about $3500.00


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## MadMartiggan

LincTex said:


> That's ambitious.
> 
> Do you have the $50,000+ to do all of this?


See the post below for the costs..... It isn't really bad if you look around and can do most the work yourself....


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## Domeguy

*air quality*

You'll want to provide for fresh air AND moisture control. if you bury that with no thermal break you will have moisture and condensation on the inside walls of your structure. It will be damp and moldy inside without plenty of air movement and humidity control. When you're readry to engineer that roof, send me a PM, it's what i do.


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## MadMartiggan

Domeguy said:


> You'll want to provide for fresh air AND moisture control. if you bury that with no thermal break you will have moisture and condensation on the inside walls of your structure. It will be damp and moldy inside without plenty of air movement and humidity control. When you're readry to engineer that roof, send me a PM, it's what i do.


Thanks Domeguy I definately will..... as for the condensation problem I had considered spray foaming the inside and synthetic coating the outside before the spray concrete shell...... What's your thought?


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## hiwall

Two words for a better answer - - "moon colony"


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## Domeguy

MadMartiggan said:


> Thanks Domeguy I definately will..... as for the condensation problem I had considered spray foaming the inside and synthetic coating the outside before the spray concrete shell...... What's your thought?


Spray foam is a great choice as a thermal barrier. Use closed-cell foam and make sure to incorporate a fire barrier (drywall) if you use it in your living space.


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## tenntrucker

I've thinking of something like this, would add a gravel barrier with drainage pipes before burying it. What gauge steel would it need to hold up?

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## tenntrucker

tenntrucker said:


> I've thinking of something like this, would add a gravel barrier with drainage pipes before burying it. What gauge steel would it need to hold up?
> 
> Sent from my GT-P3113 using Survival Forum mobile app


Looking at something like this in 18 gauge coated steel. Any thoughts?

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## LincTex

tenntrucker said:


> Looking at something like this in 18 gauge coated steel. Any thoughts?


WAY too thin.

I would say 14 gauge is "marginal-to-still-not-heavy-enough", with 11 gauge really being about as thin as you want to go... and EVEN THEN I would be wary.


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## cnsper

You would also want to seal the concrete before burying with something like Wakefield Manufacturing Inner Seal and then Hydro top for maximum water proofing. You will also want to add rebar to the concrete for added strength. Believe it or not, when galvanized steel is in contact with the ground, it does rust. As for the concrete floor, you might want to raise the living area on wood so that you have that thermal break for those cold mornings and bare feet.


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## LincTex

cnsper said:


> As for the concrete floor, you might want to raise the living area on wood so that you have that thermal break for those cold mornings and bare feet.


I would start here:

foam under slab insulation
http://www.engr.psu.edu/phrc/training/Webinar_Slab Insulation.pdf

Installing Radiant Heat in Floors
http://www.homedepot.com/c/how_to_install_radiant_floor_heating_HT_PG_FL


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## tenntrucker

All good ideal, thanks. Plan on coating the outside and looking a maybe a gravel moisture barrier with drainage pipes. Step 1 is the type of building, really like the arch type. Just not sure of the gauge strength. 

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## tenntrucker

A neat plan.



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## LincTex

tenntrucker said:


> A neat plan.


Ah, Yes!! 
Old bomb shelter plans. I love the tower with radio antenna and radiation detectors, and generator in a separate room with huge underground fuel tanks. A dream!

Start researching those old shelters and take lots of notes on how they were constructed. Many universities have extensive plans and records in archives.

Ask manufacturers of arch buildings if they allow or approve of underground burial.


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## tenntrucker

LincTex said:


> Ask manufacturers of arch buildings if they allow or approve of underground burial.


Have made a couple calls on this.....dead silence for a moment, then they have no ideal....

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## tenntrucker

Found a good read on the subject,

http://www.buildingsguide.com/faq/what-quonset-hut

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## LincTex

tenntrucker said:


> Found a good read on the subject,
> http://www.buildingsguide.com/faq/what-quonset-hut


LMAO!! Someone has called them I see....



> What are Underground Quonset Huts Used For?
> 
> Some end-uses that we have recently encountered include:
> 
> 
> Camouflaged hunting cabins
> Energy efficient homes in extremely cold climates
> Back 40 'Man Caves'
> Zombie proof houses
> SHTF houses & shelters


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## Tirediron

While the concept is sound I don't think that I would try to bury a standard steel arch building, culverts are heavier steel and smaller diameter. I just don't see the strength in the thin wall large radius structure, steel archribs have been known to collapse from snow load.


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## tenntrucker

Tirediron said:


> While the concept is sound I don't think that I would try to bury a standard steel arch building, culverts are heavier steel and smaller diameter. I just don't see the strength in the thin wall large radius structure, steel archribs have been known to collapse from snow load.


Well what I'm looking at is not standard, 22 ga is the standard what I'm looking at is 18 ga. I did call the company back and found out that I can get 16 ga for a extra $3300. This is is most likley worth the better way to go. But its all in the thinking stage. It seems the biggest threat to the building is it creeping at the bottom, so my plan is to pour a concrete header along the outer edge after completing the construction. Building size is looking like a 25'×60' at this time. Also have been told I can coat it with some type of concrete to make it much stronger.

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## Tirediron

16 gauge is a lot thicker, not trying to diss the idea, just don't want to see a wreck. I think that there is a company that designs/ builds reinforced concrete arch shaped structures too. I would think a price comparison would be worth while.


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## tenntrucker

Thanks for the input, that's why I'm on here to get all views to make sure I don't overlook something. 

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## Tirediron

this might help http://www.americansheltertechnologies.com/s_c_earth_covered.html


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## tenntrucker

Found another good read.

http://www.hardenedstructuresofamerica.com/Wonder-Buildings.html

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## LincTex

Tirediron said:


> 16 gauge is a lot thicker, not trying to diss the idea, just don't want to see a wreck.
> 
> 16 gauge = .062" (1/16th inch)
> 
> NOT thick enough to be buried!!!


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## tenntrucker

Another great read.

http://home.earthlink.net/~dectiri/OuterSpace/CulvrtHs.htm

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## tenntrucker

LincTex said:


> Tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 16 gauge is a lot thicker, not trying to diss the idea, just don't want to see a wreck.
> 
> 16 gauge = .062" (1/16th inch)
> 
> NOT thick enough to be buried!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Am talking to a company that will make one in 12 gauge.
> 
> Sent from my GT-P3113 using Survival Forum mobile app
Click to expand...


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## Caribou

If you burry it then it is grounded. Four feet should provide protection from anything except a direct hit.



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## questor

how 'bout this . . . . .


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## tenntrucker

Man does that look tough to build, think I'll stay with the metsl arch building. 

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## upstateprepper

Monolithic dome 


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## Coastal

This looks like a better system than the chain and load binders


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## OldCootHillbilly

I would be addin additional arch's and cross braces. Then I'd be addin in some post an beams. A arch building be designed fer a certain load (read snow) not 4 foot a earth an concrete on it. I'm sure it can be done, but gonna take some extra reinforcin ta getter done. Yer not gonna wanna be right down ona concrete floor, no matter what it's gonna get moisture as some point if ya be in a climate with a freeze thaw cycle (unlessin ya be below the frost line) an that means moisture. The heated floor would help lots with that, but can get a tad pricey lessin ya can do mosta the work yerself. Sounds like a awful big area. Personally, I'd go smaller. Easier ta maintain, cheaper ta build. But that there just be me.

I've seen some nice storm shelters built outa old underground fuel tanks. They be designed ta be buried an with lots a cleanin can be useable. I've remodeled a few shelters in my time, they always seem ta have a moisture issue in an around these here parts. The most unique one we did had an addition built over the topa it. This solved the problem with them ventilation pipes cause they was hid under the new addition. The entrance door was in the basement an coulda been hid real easy with a shelf er a tool board hidin that door.

Personally, I'd like a storm shelter bout 10 x 12 er there bouts, but it be lots a work an I ain't as young as I used ta be an ta have somebody else do the work costs a chunk a change an then ya got everbody knowin what ya got ta boot.

Hope it all works out fer ya.


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## tenntrucker

Coastal said:


> This looks like a better system than the chain and load binders
> 
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> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Survival Forum mobile app


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## Coastal

tenntrucker said:


> Its called Arch-Lock and the company is out of Canada.
> 
> http://lockblock.com/arch_lock.php
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Survival Forum mobile app


Well holy crap they are less than an hour away. Cool!

I wonder if you could build it by filling with roadbase as you go up to hold the blocks in place, then dig it out once complete?


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## LincTex

Coastal said:


> I wonder if you could build it by filling with roadbase as you go up to hold the blocks in place, then dig it out once complete?


Those thing are cool... but WAY too big, and WAY too heavy for anything less than a full on construction crew with a BIG crane to consider tackling. And expensive.


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## smaj100

I'm not an engineer or don't even pretend to be sometimes, but I have a question.

So everyone is saying these steel arch buildings can't be used for underground structures. Couldn't they be simply used as a forming tool to layer concrete on top of? I mean if you put down a 2" (SWAG) layer on concrete with mesh or reinforcement in it, allowed that to cure and then continued building up layers would that not provide a safe level of structural support to then be covered?


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## LincTex

smaj100 said:


> So everyone is saying these steel arch buildings can't be used for underground structures. Couldn't they be simply used as a forming tool to layer concrete on top of?


Probably. Our root cellar was poured in the shape of a quonset, and it was wood formed. So, yes - the arch building could be used as a form.

Might still want to consult a higher power (an engineer?) to get the specifics down. My grandpa is no longer alive so I can't ask how he built it.


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## tenntrucker

smaj100 said:


> I'm not an engineer or don't even pretend to be sometimes, but I have a question.
> 
> So everyone is saying these steel arch buildings can't be used for underground structures. Couldn't they be simply used as a forming tool to layer concrete on top of? I mean if you put down a 2" (SWAG) layer on concrete with mesh or reinforcement in it, allowed that to cure and then continued building up layers would that not provide a safe level of structural support to then be covered?


They can be buried, just have to do it correctly. Your ideal will make it even stronger.

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## LincTex

In this case, I would get a little wire feed welder that runs on 120 volts and uses flux-core wire. I would make sure all the rebar and mesh are welded to the arch structure (or welded to brackets bolted to the structure), making the strength all tied together.


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## smaj100

Agreed and I would leave rebar nubs sticking out of one layer of concrete to tie to the next layer of wire mesh or rebar so it can all be tied together. Im not going for the approach just wanted to add a different pov for folks who keep saying it cant be done or so on. 

I think we as a community look outside of the box on enough things to make ideas work and safe, that just an automatic NO don't do it can be worked around.


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## Coastal

That's a great idea. Similar to what they do with the inflatable forms for dome houses. But the form stays in.


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## tenntrucker

Still moving along with my plans on this. Found some ideas along the lines of where I'm heading with this.



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## LincTex

tenntrucker said:


> Still moving along with my plans on this. Found some ideas along the lines of where I'm heading with this.


That buried shipping container doesn't look like the roof is reinforced very well.


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## TheLazyL

smaj100 said:


> ...steel arch buildings can't be used for underground structures. Couldn't they be simply used as a forming tool to layer concrete on top of? I mean if you put down a 2" (SWAG) layer on concrete with mesh or reinforcement in it, allowed that to cure...


Concrete will not "stick" to cured concrete. You would have to do entire pour at one time and I'd doubt the steel arch could support the weight.


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## tenntrucker

LincTex said:


> That buried shipping container doesn't look like the roof is reinforced very well.


I don't think its a container, I thought it was a formed out and poured room. And was looking at a spray on concert coating.

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## LincTex

tenntrucker said:


> I don't think its a container,


Look at the doors in the opening.

Very "container-ish" looking!


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## helicopter5472

Is using a railroad car instead of a shipping container any stronger for bury purposes? I have seen several cabins and business outlets made with them, but how strong are they to bury underground?


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## OldCootHillbilly

helicopter5472 said:


> Is using a railroad car instead of a shipping container any stronger for bury purposes? I have seen several cabins and business outlets made with them, but how strong are they to bury underground?


Ain't sure they be no stronger thena container.

But round these parts on some low travel roads they use old tanker cars fer culverts.

I thin a container er even a steel arch building can be buried, BUT, it's gonna have ta be reinforced fer the job. I thin it's doable. Just a feller gonna have ta do some research an find out how much more metal isa gonna have ta be added in.


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## LincTex

helicopter5472 said:


> Is using a railroad car instead of a shipping container any stronger for bury purposes? I have seen several cabins and business outlets made with them, but how strong are they to bury underground?


I once cut one up with a torch, it was hopper car used to store fertilizer. It took weeks!

It was 10 times thicker and tougher than a shipping container. I'll bet I could cut up a shipping container in one day easy.


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## OldCootHillbilly

Hopper car yes, cause they be made fer a bulk load, but a box car (just a container on steel wheels) ain't built that heavy in the sidewalls er roof. A pressurized tanker car would be heavy metal to.


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## jerzy_s

tenntrucker said:


> I don't think its a container, I thought it was a formed out and poured room. And was looking at a spray on concert coating.


I read this thread as it popped up in my research for earth-sheltered-home. So I'm not sure my 2 cents transfers to an underground bunker, but here is my thought on adapting Steel Arch Building for underground use... 
======================

I basically consider a steel arch building as a ready made form for a concrete earth sheltered building. Here is how I see it.

1. Excavate the site to your needs (in my case - one side of the building will be open to light/view while the rest is cut into a gentle hillside)
2. install all conduits that need to go on the outside of the shell (electric and plumbing connections etc) and all openings/penetrations. 
3. Spray on water protection (tar like stuff)
4. Spray on closed cell insulation (thickness as per material guidelines, but enough to cover conduits etc)
5. Install rebar reinforcement over the insulation as engineered (I'm considering to use steel fiber additive to subsidize some of the rebar)
6. Spray on concrete to required thickness
7. Cover with earth.

I omitted the parts related to drainage system, floor insulation, radiant heat, and concrete floor pour etc.

The advantages of this approach as I see them are:
1. The cost of steel building is equal or less then the cost of material and labor needed to create the forms by traditional means.
2. Easy to work with - plumbers and electricians can easily access the outside of the shell and mount their hardware "in place"
3. Time saver - construction work can be taking place on the outside and inside simultaneously (with exception of the actual time of pouring concrete and earth covering)
4. Design Flexibility (relatively speaking) - you can join multiple "shells" either together or via connecting arches/walkways to take advantage of the physical site or specific needs (example - add a connected garage/workshop/etc.
5. Existing infrastructure - Steel Arch Buildings were in use for decades - so no need to reinvent connectors, anchors etc.

Thoughts? Would that work?


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## questor

tenntrucker said:


> Have made a couple calls on this.....dead silence for a moment, then they have no ideal....
> 
> Sent from my GT-P3113 using Survival Forum mobile app


I made several calls on this about 4 years back.
I got the same response, dead silence then, sometimes a "hmmmmmmm".
I was told two or three times "Let me get back to you".
I'm still waiting


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## questor

upstateprepper said:


> Monolithic dome
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


http://www.monolithic.org/


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## jerzy_s

questor said:


> http://www.monolithic.org/


I've researched those, but there are design limitations to it and the cost of the bubble is actually quite significant. Shell alone costs about $60 per sqf of floor space installed, and it is not "lets now bury it underground" setup.

By comparison - I estimate the approach I outlined would cost about $40-50 per sqf of floor space for the shell (includes poured floor prepped for radiant heat, complete shell as outlined in my list, and ground work including backfill. Add extra if site is very remote, but you can save a lot if you put your own labor in)

Though the Monolitic Domes are quite cost effective very large structures, and it's a great idea/solution/approach to building,


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## questor

http://www.olgec.com/d/index.php/products/box-culvert

http://www.conteches.com/products/bridges-and-structures/plate/aluminum-box-culvert.aspx

http://www.trenwa.com/html/TrenchProducts.html


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