# What to look for in a pack



## LongRider

Unlike an AR , Shotgun, high powered rifle, a 1911 or really nice knives, a good quality pack has little or no cool factor. After all its just a bag to carry your gear in. That's it. 
But like boots they are a critical piece of gear. Whether it's for camping, hunting, cross country hiking, mountain climbing, spelunking or bugging out your life may very well depend on your pack doing its job well. Making it one of the most important bit of gear you own. So I thought it would be a good idea to talk about what makes a good pack and why. Why do you have the pack you do. What makes a good pack. For this discussion lets focus BOB or INCH packs 
*
Intelligent design.*
Your pack should be well organized. The first most important reason is balanced ease of carry. Part of that relates to how you load your pack but the pack should be designed to assist you with proper weight distribution. The contents of badly designed, poorly fitted or haphazardly packed, pack will move throughout the day causing the weight to shift right, left up or down increasing the amount of pitch roll or sway you must endure with each step. Even while walking on level paved city streets. On uneven wilderness trails the problems are compounded exponentially. Ascending, descending steep inclines, climbing or rappelling, running, jumping, on slippery wet surfaces it becomes needlessly hazardous. Causing unnecessary neck, shoulder pain, back strain, leg fatigue and injury.

Next the pack should be designed to give you instant access to anything in your pack. You do not want to need to dump out the entire contents of your pack to get TP, rain gear or the first aid kit. Everything should have a place and everything in its place. To that end you will want a pack that is well designed with intelligently placed and sized pockets and compartments. Expandable, customizable to suit your mission specific needs or personal preference.

*Durability*
Indestructible durability, comfort, security, balance, ease of movement and agility are not relegated solely to Spec Ops military or specialized activity but a part of what we all should expect from our packs. Who wants to tolerate unbalanced uncomfortable, cumbersome heavy sacks, weighing us down, hindering our movement causing needless fatigue, strain and injury. We especially don't want packs that are likely to fail causing the gear our lives may depend upon to be lost, or damaged.

IMO durability is the single most important feature of any pack. Be it a BOB or a long distance hiking pack where you will be far from resupply, dependent upon what you can carry to survive. If you pack rips or fails to keep your gear safe and dry, you can end up dead. Expect mishaps, Expect that you or your pack will go sliding down some rocky hill, down a gravelly road or dropped into a river and go tumbling down the rapids hitting sharp rocks along the way. If your pack and its contents don't survive neither will you. If your pack is repairable it is junk by definition, get a pack that will never need to be repaired instead.

*Quality Construction*
Kind of goes with the above make sure that you pack is made of durable rip proof material. I prefer CORDURA® Ballistic fabric while heavier than other materials it is nearly bullet proof. When selecting a fabric for your pack you will have to find a balance between weight and durability that you are comfortable with. I lean towards durability. So CORDURA® Ballistic fabric is my fabric of choice.
Ideally double layered with a tough exterior and a water proof liner. All edges must be bonded or have a flat-felled seamed (A machine-sewn seam where all raw edges are encased by fabric and sewn flat). You do not want any raw edges. Make sure all seams are at least double stitched. Triple and quadruple stitched is even better. Extra stitching in all stress points, straps, D rings should all be X Boxed (a bonded square sewn at the edge with an X stitched inside the box) and covered with an extra layer of material. Avoid zippers. Even the best zippers fail. If the pack has zippers be sure that they are used in a non critical area, so that you are not up a creek when it fails. Regardless of where the zipper is be sure it is a high quality zipper. Same with your snaps and connectors. Know who manufactures the snaps and connectors used on your pack. Make sure they are high end indestructible able to withstand extreme heat, cold and abuse.
All your straps and belt should be at least double if not triple layered web strap or like material. Padding should be of a durable non foam material.

*Capacity*
I have seen some massive 7,000 cu capacity packs. So it is easy to get a pack that holds far more than you can reasonably carry. The bigger the pack the greater the temptation to over pack. Even my comparatively small 2,000 cu capacity pack can hold more than I can carry if I am not careful. I try to keep it down maybe a little extra for food but not much. Only because that will diminish. You of course may be larger than I or in better shape. So it is important to know what your limits are. That is what should determine what size your pack is. Not what you want to carry. Within reason of course you need to be able to carry everything you really need to survive. If not buck up get in shape.

*Camel back hydration systems*
Are the greatest things in my opinion since dehydrated food and sliced bread. For two reasons:
1) It distributes the weight better no more having to balance a canteen on one side or the other. It holds your water center line which is ideal. 
2) It allows you to use your water more efficiently this is purely subjective on my part. Taking a sip of water as you need it seems to require less water than taking periodic hydration breaks where you are gulping water down in response to being parched. So make sure your pack is camel back compatible.

*Frames*
External, internal or frameless is really a matter of personal preference. I prefer frameless packs. 
A) I have not found a frame that I cannot break, That is the primary reason I do not use a framed pack. Being of the KIS school (Keep It Simple) going frameless applies to me, just one less thing that can go wrong. 
B) I do not like the way that framed packs especially external frames hold the weight away from my body, off my center line. To me they feel unbalanced more prone to pitch and roll, more on that later. Frameless packs hold the weight closer. They feel more like a part of me for lack of a better way to explain it. But as I said its a personal preference. Thats my opinion yours may differ we all have one and you know the rest

*Comfort Adjust-ability*
Like a properly fitted pair of boots, a properly fitted pack is barely noticeable. If they don't fit you'll be constantly reminded of that unpleasant fact. Be sure the pack fits you. It can make the difference between a great day in the bush or a miserable endurance test. Make sure the shoulder straps are the proper width and height for you. The waist belt should hit you at the middle of your pelvis not up on the waist like a weight belt. Ideally it will have a lumbar support to help assure you have it set at the right spot. Both of course should be adjustable to fine tune your fit. The shoulder straps should have straps to adjust how the weight sits on your back. Ultimately you want your pack to fit as if is a part of you or an extension of your body. It should move with you not be something you are constantly fighting against.

OK that's my criteria, what's yours and why? Next I'll post the bag I picked based upon that criteria and try to explain why I picked it. Lets hear what you have and why.


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## LongRider

*My Becker Ranger Patrol Pack*

Trying this again, The Becker Ranger Patrol Pack is the pack I have used for the last five years or so. Here is my review and reasons I picked it.
*Size Dimensions*
The Becker Ranger Patrol Pack (BRPP) is Approximately 2158 cu in.
The main compartment: 13.5" x 18.5" x 6" = 1,498 cu in divided into four sections one of which is Camelaback hydration compatable
2-Cap pouches: 2.75" x 8" x 2" = 44 cu in
2-Front pouches: 6.25" x 8" x 3" = 150 cu in
2-Side pouches: 5.5" x 9" x 2.75" = 136 cu in
Slip pocket: 12" x 9" (30.5 cm x 22.75 cm)
Weight empty 6.5lbs
For some that is small, for me it is massive capable of holding far more than I am willing to hump anywhere. An ideal weekender BOB or GHB size. Expandable for an indefinite

*Material*
The exterior is CORDURA® Ballistic grade fabric, a densely woven high-strength nylon fabric with exceptional abrasion, tear and puncture resistance. Specifically designed for maximum durability and long-lasting performance. One source says it was originally developed for use in military body armor. Plate carriers, maybe? I doubt it is bullet proof and I am not going to shoot it to find out. Regardless I have no doubt that the BRPP that will protect my gear from all outside elements without concern that the pack will ever rip, tear, leak or otherwise fail.

*Construction*
All seams are double or triple stitched with nylon cord using a Class VII machine for maximum strength. All fabric edges are edged and triple stitched. The interior liner of the main compartment and exterior pockets are made of a light weight waterproof rip stop nylon that is triple stitched with nylon cord not glued or single stitched. The main compartment's waterproof liner uses a roll-close closure system to make it water proof even if it goes over board. The external pouches have the same water proof liner that seals with a drawstring paracord and Fastex Barrel closure on the inside of the pouch. The exterior pouch lids and pouches are made of the same CORDURA® Ballistic grade fabric used for the main compartment using the same Mil Spec Fastex side locks as the rest of the pack. The BRPP web strap closure system is double thickness, triple stitched, edged and uses heavy duty Mil Spec Fastex Side Release Buckles for all its closures.

The back padding, shoulder straps, belt and lumbar support are triple padded with a Coolmax layer and triple stitched with nylon cord using a Class VII machine for maximum strength. Virtually indestructible they will not come apart or fail for any reason other than deliberate destruction. Even than it will take some real effort to damage it.

I am confident that the BRPP will hold all of my gear solidly and securely. It will protect my gear even in the harshest conditions and never drop, lose, damage or expose my gear to the elements due to failure.

*Intelligent Design*
The main compartment is CamelBak hydration system compatible, has four interior pockets to compartmentalize your gear for easy access and balance. The side interior pockets can hold an AR upper or lower. The external lid has a hidden compartment that can hold paperwork or a change of clothing. It uses the only zipper on the pack.

The four huge exterior pockets are intelligently located on the pack. Plus two mag pouches on the lid. Each will hold two 30 round PMAG 5.56 magazines with Magpuls or Magpul Ranger plates. 
Designed so that all your gear is instantly available to you whenever you need it.

The shoulder straps are infinitely adjustable up and down as well as tension to assure secure, safe, comfortable balanced carry. With additional adjustment straps up top to adjust the weight distribution of the pack eliminating pitch and roll. A sternum strap further stabilizes the pack assuring a snug comfortable fit. Coolmax allows air to circulate wicking sweat and moisture away from your body. The wide belt has a built in shock absorbing lumbar support system

The massive exterior side pockets have a compression strap option. Between the side pockets and the main body of the pack are slots that will hold a rifle, skis, machete, BK7 , BK9, shovel or whatever. There are attachment points along the top to secure whatever you are carrying there or to add pouches if you wish. There are additional attachment points at the bottom of the sides, along the belt, lid, along the back top and bottom for any additional gear or packs/pouches you may need. As well two strips underneath front and back to secure sleeping bags and tent or whatever. In addition there are D rings on the shoulder straps, top, sides and bottom providing additional attachment options for other items like your knife, a shovel, extra water or whatever you wish.

Designed so that the Becker Ranger Patrol Pack is infinitely customizable to your personal or mission specific needs, be it a hiking, camping trip, fishing, hunting, bugging out or spec ops combat mission. In a secure, safe, well balanced and comfortable to carry package. With every piece of my gear at my finger tips when I need it.

Properly fitted and packed there was no change in my balance or need to compensate for the shifting weight on my back because there is no shifting sway pitch or roll. I do not feel the weight on my back, instead it feels more like I gained weight. The additional weight feels as if it is part of my body. I did not have to endure that neck, back strain, shoulder pain I often associate with back packing. The only leg fatigue I experienced was from the exertion expended walking with added weight. I easily moved through city streets, wilderness trails, steep inclines, declines, ran, jumped with the same agility, grace and balance as I could without a pack if I was hundred pounds heavier. That is the thing that impressed me the most the BRPP felt more like a part of me than a pack on my back. I believe the result is reduced risk of injury, and less stressful hike, and the ability to cover more miles over rougher terrain with less effort and greater comfort.

*Conclusions*
At 6.5 pounds empty this is not an ultralight pack. For its size it is pretty heavy. To me that is an acceptable trade off for being indestructible. To my way of thinking the number one priority in pack selection is that it keep all my gear safe and secure. I have no doubt the BRPP will do that even in the harshest conditions. 
Second down side is that it is not very big with a total of 2158 cu in of storage without the addition of add on packs. As I said that is not as big an issue for me as it may be for others. That said I can pack whatever I need to survive indefinitely in the bush, including a carbine and ammo. It is as comfortable a pack as I have ever used. Well balanced easy to carry. With easy quick instantaneous access to all my gear. Customizable so that I can arrange it to suit me and quickly adapt it for specific needs. Packed ready to go at a moments notice. With spare packs of first aid supplies, ammo, food, water, additional kit of whatever available to strap on as needed.

Becker Patrol Pack by Eagle Industries - Part 1





Becker Patrol Pack by Eagle Industries - Part 2


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## cqp33

I have a 5.11 tactical Rush 72 that I use for my BOB. I have in it a eureka zues 2 tent, a sleeping bag, socks, underwear, flight suit coveralls, base layer 2 pants/top (for sleeping in), pants, 2 shirts, med kit, camp ax, self inflating pillow, fire starting kit (4 ways to start a fire), food (energy bars, freeze dried meals, hot cocoa & coffee), water purification tablets, water filter for camel bak, 100 ounze camel bak, compass, bear gylis survival knife, 1 qt canteen (attached on the front of the belt), para cord, 1/4" synthetic nylon and some other things I am neglecting to think of right now!
The pack was heavier than I expected when empty, a little over 6 pounds, that was you get when the pack is made to take a beating though! I have carried this pack fully loaded on many hikes now and I learn something new each time about how to pack it so it carries right. My advice to you is practice carrying your BOB, learn how weight placement affects the way it carries and your Center of gravity!

This pack was a little pricey but I am glad I got it, it makes a great BOB and a great overnight camping/hiking bag too! Plenty of pockets and plenty of storage and built like a tank! YKK zippers though so they might be an issue over time, I carry some strong, large sized safety pins for laundry bags though just in case it decides to give out at the worst possible time. Most of my gear that I want to keep dry I keep in small 1040, 1050 or 1020 micro pelican cases that I have collected over time. Again they are a little pricey but catch them on sale and you can pick up one or two here and there! Good luck and great detailed post LongRider!


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## Jezcruzen

I have six or seven packs in various sizes. All but two are what I would call very high quality.

I have pursed the internet sites that sell bags geared more for a military environment and found most to be woefully overpriced for what you get. I guess the "cool factor" ups the price. One exception are the alice packs, which are a steal and great for storing stuff in a vehicle. I just wouldn't want to hump one very far if loaded. They aren't all that well designed, even with the frame, for comfort, IMHO.

Civilian recreational packs from any of the quality manufactures are the best deal going in the price vs quality comparison. I have a Kelty Redwing pack that I would put up against any of the military 3-day "assault" packs. It has everything but the price. I think I paid $90 for it a number of years ago.

Kelty, Mountain Smith. Lowe, REI all make excellent products that will last a lot longer than many of us will.


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## The_Blob

am I :nuts: for having room in my pack *for another pack*? :dunno: 

the other pack is in a Space Saver Vacuum Bag so it doesn't take up that much space


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## kyhoti

Nope, Blob, I almost always keep an extra daypack in my main bag. There are times when I leave my pack at a base camp and use my daypack to carry a lighter kit, especially for side trails on water runs. Sometimes I just feel like climbing that "scenic view" side blaze and don't want to jump my full load; I bear bag my whole pack and just take the bare essentials in the day pack. As long as you don't mind the extra ounces, who's to say yea or may what you put in your pack?


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## sailaway

I leave for the Alps this Friday, and am in a quandry about which pack to take. 3500 cu. in. or 4000 cu. in. I want to base camp in a couple spots and hike for the day so am considdering a small pack to go with one mentioned above. I also have a 6000 cu. in. pack that has a removeable belt and top pocket that turns into a rather large fanny pack.

Alot of the travellers I run into in the cities and train stations wear their large pack on their backs and then their small day packs across their front. 

I am planning on going mountain hut to mountain hut as a minimalist, but will need space to carry varying ammounts of food and water and oh yea, lots of Lindt Bars.


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## mdprepper

sailaway said:


> I am planning on going mountain hut to mountain hut as a minimalist, but will need space to carry varying ammounts of food and water and oh yea, lots of Lindt Bars.


What was that??? You're bringing us all back some CHOCOLATE!!!! :woohoo::woohoo::woohoo: :kiss:


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## Fn/Form

Thanks for the write-up, LongRider. That Becker looks nice. I just picked up a Down East Patrol pack on sale. It has a poly partial frame. 

What add-on packs do you use, if any? I am considering a RIBZ front pack for 1st line gear carry amongst the masses.


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## LongRider

Fn/Form said:


> Thanks for the write-up, LongRider. That Becker looks nice. I just picked up a Down East Patrol pack on sale. It has a poly partial frame.
> 
> What add-on packs do you use, if any? I am considering a RIBZ front pack for 1st line gear carry amongst the masses.


Crap I missed this.The RIBZ front pack looks like it holds alot more gear than what I need. Judging from the pics, I have never seen or handled one so take this for what its worth. It looks like it is made of ripstop nylon. As I have said I prefer indestructible durability over light weight, so the ripstop would be a major negative for me. For general use, day hike, or the like I might find a use for it instead of a regular pack but for hard use /survival I'd want something much more durable.

Also it looks like it has a four strap harness on top of my packs harness. Which is 2 shoulder straps, belt and chest strap. With my little pee brains I'm afraid I'd get confused and get everything all tangled up with all that "stuff" wrapped around my body. Not sure I would like that much

What I do have is a couple of holsters that I may use one of. A chest rig or a MOLLE holster for the belt along with some magizine pouches. If I feel the need. Also have a few MOLLE Medical Pouchs and Accessory Pouch M60, that I have set up with different gear, one an extended medical kit, another has some camera gear, another rappelling gear and so on, that I use as needed. But normally the Becker patrol pack hold more than what I am willing to carry.

Hope that helps. If you get the RIBZ front pack I'd be interested in hearing your take on it once you have had a chance to use it.


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## Fn/Form

Great timing, 'Rider, as I recently received my first RIBZ pack.

The three main reasons I am evaluating the RIBZ:

1. *I need a way to keep First Line gear on me at all times when hiking, camping or BOB use.* If my life depends on speed I can drop my main pack yet retain nav, basic security, basic med, comms, light and other First Line items. At other times it also works as a one-piece grab 'n go that I can carry OR wear. It only needs to be big enough for my "Basics".

2. *Belt-mounted gear does not work with a frame pack/hip belt*--to include IWB, AIWB. A waist pack doesn't work well, either. I have a Wilderness Safe Packer and Hawke Paks waist pack. Both very tough gear, but they don't work well for BOB/ruck. Also I find waist mounted gear sucks when prone. Snorkel butt, supine back, neck cocked back and poor cheek weld. Makes for fatigue and greatly reduced maneuverability.

3. *Concealing gear among the masses.* I chose the alpine green model. It doesn't scream gun, and a med patch might further reduce the profile. Maybe I need a med bracelet, and it can just read "NKA". ;-)

I got the Small model, as I want minimum pack/arm swing interference. I find the design puts the shoulder pads closer to the neck. My pack shoulders just on the outside of the RIBZ pads/straps. I keep the RIBZ adjusted high to reduce belly breathing restriction and keep the gear from affecting prone position.

So far it keeps nav and other frequent use stuff up front and handy. I'm perfecting a holster insert. The Small model's main compartment fits a G17 fine. Not the fastest access, but workable with some practice and maybe mods.

I'm using it for a running pack. It is great to keep some protection items, spare batteries, GPS, etc. that I simply cannot carry any other way in summer running gear. It's working so well right now I may dedicate a RIBZ to running. I'm surprised RIBZ doesn't yet offer a hydration pouch for the pack.

It is made from CORDURA ripstop with YKK zippers. Stitching is good. The CORDURA has a plastic type layer on the back side. It almost feels like silicone. Very water resistant, but not waterproof.

I did NOT want anything that looks military or Maxpedition-esque. I like a lower profile, but still quality. This is just about perfect.

I would like to see heavier duty YKK zippers and double zipper/full opening main compartment to facilitate firearm access. I will be sewing the sliding shoulder straps to fixed positions once I have it dialed in for active wear.


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## ZangLussuria

The_Blob said:


> am I :nuts: for having room in my pack *for another pack*? :dunno:
> 
> the other pack is in a Space Saver Vacuum Bag so it doesn't take up that much space


There a number of ways to go about this:

My North Face Crestone 65 which I use for camping has a removable top lid which converts to a waist pack which I use when I head out from the camp ground. Just enough to carry a few essentials.

My BOB has a waist pack strapped to the outside with essentials which is called an e-kit or evacuation kit which is what I would bring with me if I have to leave my bag somewhere or if it became too cumbersome in some situations. Or in extreme cases, where I have to ditch the BOB and evacuation is the top priority.
The waist pack has a water bottle & potable aqua tabs, mini FAK, Swiss Knife with flashlight, some energy bars, firestarter, also 1 of those lightweight shopping bags in case I have to carry or able to salvage stuff where it would be difficult to carry by hand, plus lots of other things, etc. It also doubles as a pouch to keep things organized for the BOB.

You can get one of those stowable packs like this and keep it in your BOB.
http://m.rei.com/mt/www.rei.com/product/827110/rei-flash-18-pack

Also a hiking back with a removable day pack would do well.


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## Fn/Form

ITStactical.com had a recent review of a Hill People Gear pack. One feature was another front pack option for first line gear/carry.
http://www.hillpeoplegear.com/Products/InDetail/KitBags/tabid/922/Default.aspx

The single piece yoke design on their packs and the Kit Bag are very nice. Less tangling, twisting of straps and very ergonomic.


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## LongRider

Fn/Form said:


> ITStactical.com had a recent review of a Hill People Gear pack. One feature was another front pack option for first line gear/carry.
> http://www.hillpeoplegear.com/Products/InDetail/KitBags/tabid/922/Default.aspx
> 
> The single piece yoke design on their packs and the Kit Bag are very nice. Less tangling, twisting of straps and very ergonomic.


Now these do look like a more viable option. I like the option of using the lifter straps to dock it onto your primary pack straps and I like the PALS option on the recon version. BUT I can not find anything about what they are made of and what kind of zippers they use. As you know I am not a fan of zippers anyway but if they are used they must be YKK.


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## truecarnage

I have the large Alice pack and my biggest issue is if I go with one bigger I don't think I will be able to move efficiently for long distance or time. I'm at about 80-90LBS now between the pack and my full load out. If I go bigger I'll just End up putting more in it.


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## LongRider

truecarnage said:


> I have the large Alice pack and my biggest issue is if I go with one bigger I don't think I will be able to move efficiently for long distance or time. I'm at about 80-90LBS now between the pack and my full load out. If I go bigger I'll just End up putting more in it.


EXACTLY !!! What I said about my comparatively small 2158cu inch pack. I can overload even that if I am not careful. What feels reasonable hopping around in the comfort of our home is not the same when we are out in the bush. You don't want to be struggling with your pack all day, especially when you may need to be running jumping and dodging.


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## cqp33

I have said it before and I will get on my soapbox again!:soapbox2: Load your pack and go one a 5 mile hike with it, half way through your hike unpack, set up camp, break down camp, repack and finish the hike! You will find that how you loaded the pack it will most likely feel different on your back after repacking it! You need to figure out the best way to load what you have to carry, this can only be done with practice, practice and yup, more practice! I learned this by doing 4-7 mile hikes in Oahu with elevation changes anywhere between 800-2300 feet over the length of the hikes, the worst being a 6.4 mile hike with 3.2 miles of it going up 2300 feet then coming back down which I think is worse than going up! leaning forward going up seems easier, our bodies weren't made for leaning back going down and in my late 30's it just hurts!

It was a necessary evil though, I wanted to learn to pack my BOB in hurry, get familiar with the gear in it and get in shape to carry it! Bottom line here is get out in the woods and carry your loaded pack!


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## CrackbottomLouis

I really like molle compatible packs. Mainly because I have a lot of outdoor hobbies that require the same basic gear but different specific gear. Molle allows me to prepack many large pouches that I can quickly add to the pack depending on the outing. This also allows for quick access to well organized gear. If you don't mind dropping some coin check out kifaru. I like the Zulu model. Great thread


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## deetheivy

Jezcruzen said:


> I have six or seven packs in various sizes. All but two are what I would call very high quality.
> 
> I have pursed the internet sites that sell bags geared more for a military environment and found most to be woefully overpriced for what you get. I guess the "cool factor" ups the price. One exception are the alice packs, which are a steal and great for storing stuff in a vehicle. I just wouldn't want to hump one very far if loaded. They aren't all that well designed, even with the frame, for comfort, IMHO.
> 
> Civilian recreational packs from any of the quality manufactures are the best deal going in the price vs quality comparison. I have a Kelty Redwing pack that I would put up against any of the military 3-day "assault" packs. It has everything but the price. I think I paid $90 for it a number of years ago.
> 
> Kelty, Mountain Smith. Lowe, REI all make excellent products that will last a lot longer than many of us will.


I also have the Redwing, And I love it. I have never once been dissapointed with Kelty.


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## swjohnsey

Interesting discussion. I just finished living out of a pack for 5 1/2 months and 2,200 miles plus I carred a large ALICE for about a million miles as a LRRP.

Y'all need to check out some of the botique pack makers. My favorite is ULA, Ultra Light Adventure. They make a really excellent pack at a reasonable price, light but durable. I carried a ULA Ohm 2.0 and also have a Catalyst. As you can imagine folks who do that kind of mileage figure out what works and what doesn't.

I carried tent, bag, pad, cooking gear plus 3-5 days food and quart or so of water. Total weight never exceeded 20 lbs.

Camelbaks are heavy. Most folks on the trail substitute a couple of 1l Gatorade bottles, they are very tough, very light, have wide mouth and the price is right.


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## LongRider

CrackbottomLouis said:


> I really like molle compatible packs. Mainly because I have a lot of outdoor hobbies that require the same basic gear but different specific gear. Molle allows me to prepack many large pouches that I can quickly add to the pack depending on the outing. This also allows for quick access to well organized gear. If you don't mind dropping some coin check out kifaru. I like the Zulu model. Great thread


Thank you, exactly the kind of input I am looking for. A feature you require in a pack and why. Also agreed I like MOLLE for exactly the reasons you gave. It is like having a series of mission specific packs in one without carrying gear you do not need.


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## LongRider

cqp33 said:


> I have said it before and I will get on my soapbox again!:soapbox2: snip .........................Bottom line here is get out in the woods and carry your loaded pack!


Thanks for the share now that you have that off your chest. How about sharing *What You look for in a pack* and why. Because bottom line here is that is what the topic is about.



deetheivy said:


> I also have the Redwing, And I love it. I have never once been dissapointed with Kelty.


Good points but can you tell us the why? What do you look for in a pack that those provide. My hope is that by discussing what we look for in a pack rather than what is the best pack we can avoid the whole mine is better than yours arguments. Most folks believe whatever they have is the best there is. Which is why they got it. If we share our experience about what makes a good pack I think it will be more helpful for those looking for a pack than debating who has the best pack.



swjohnsey said:


> As you can imagine folks who do that kind of mileage figure out what works and what doesn't.


Correct, it is folks with your level of experience that can provide some real insights by sharing what features, material, design you look for in a pack and why.

As an example. Years ago I recall being laughed at and clowned by the ultra lite crowd hiking the Pacific Crest Trail because of my heavy duty "tactical" pack. The very same people I passed on the trail literally crying. A life long dream shattered because their pack had ripped and all their precious ultra lite titanium cookware and gear was lost strewn across the countryside, down a cliff or at the bottom of a river. Which is why I gave durability as a critical feature I look for in a bag. Would like to hear what you look for in a pack.

I am curious about your camelbak comment my CamelBak Reservoir is nothing more than a plastic bag with a tube that feeds out to my shoulder strap. I doubt it is heavier than plastic bottles and was not that spendy. I only fill it with the amount of water I need to carry for the environment I am in. Around here that is not much as we have an abundance of clean drinkable water in all seasons


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## swjohnsey

The ultra-lite crowd can get a little carried away. The has to be a balance between light weight and durability. The guy who is ULA, Chris is a thru-hiker so he knows what works. Gear on the trail takes a beating.

I was curious, weighed my Camelbak bladder 6 oz, two Gatorade bottles 4 oz. Gatorade bottles are much easier to fill from streams and springs.

My ULA 2.0 weighs about 1 3/4 lbs, my large ALICE around 6. The ALICE will carry more weight but they will both carry about the same volume. 

Interestingly, folks who hike the PCT tend to carry different gear than those hiking the AT.

As far as pack go I would:

Look for something not made in China.
Look for something that has a good hip belt
Look for something that comes in a variety of sizes, torso length being the most important
Stay away from cuben fiber unless durability is important
Look for something with an internal frame,


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## Fn/Form

Jezcruzen said:


> I have six or seven packs in various sizes. All but two are what I would call very high quality.
> 
> I have pursed the internet sites that sell bags geared more for a military environment and found most to be woefully overpriced for what you get. I guess the "cool factor" ups the price...


You pay for more durable textile, stitching, connecting components and customized compartments (med and radio antenna/mic friendly). It is the difference of hiking vs. a pack that is jump rated and hits the ground hard and drags 50yds on rock so you don't have to. All without breaking the pack frame or ripping a zipper.

It's a pack that you load/unload every day from your personal vehicle to your patrol car for years and still functions well when your (or someone else's) life depends on it.

One comparison between the consumer and military models are the very similiar Sweetpea and 3-Day Assault packs made by Mystery Ranch. Except for color options they appear exactly the same. They are not. The Assault pack is made of heavier material and has features designed for military equipment accessibility. It comes in subdued colors whereas the Sweetpea is designed with weight savings and aesthetic appeal.

My current setup is a Mystery Ranch Load Sling. It is the most versatile system I could find; it does not limit you to any bag size... large OR small.

You can load dry bags, gather wood, hump meat, haul water, haul some serious photo/video/audio gear deep into the wild, even seat an injured person. The bottom "wraps" the load in one direction and the compression straps stabilize it in the other.

They even make piggyback packs for it. I got the BVS model and it does stabilize better even tho I don't wear armor plates with it.

I have a long torso. MR's "NICE" frame has a vertically adjustable yoke. Great for fitting me in summer (light clothes) or winter (bulk clothes). I can't tell you how many packs do not fit me because the yoke is too short and the weight rides on my shoulders instead of my hips. The NICE frame system integrates with both regular packs and the Load Sling--so you can mix-match whatever you need but still keep the excellent frame.


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## Fn/Form

LongRider said:


> Now these do look like a more viable option. I like the option of using the lifter straps to dock it onto your primary pack straps and I like the PALS option on the recon version. BUT I can not find anything about what they are made of and what kind of zippers they use. As you know I am not a fan of zippers anyway but if they are used they must be YKK.


Ask HPG about it. They are very quick on e-mail responses. Contact e-mail address is at the bottom of the right side pane on their site.

If you look at their forum you find a lot of practical thinking. I really liked their rifle thread.

I love the front/rear pack balancing in such a compact form. A lot like the Aarn or SyncPack concepts, but much lower profile and high enough to be prone-friendly. I still prefer to keep first line gear completely separate from my main pack, but their Tarahumara/Kit bag combo looks really nice.


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## ZangLussuria

Personal preferences. I like:

Compartments/Pockets (but not too much) - just enough to keep some things organized. Adds a little bit of weight but I don't like digging through 1 huge cavernous sack for some small items.

Panel loading - not a deal breaker but nice to have. I can lay the bag flat when loading or unloading.

Expandable front mesh pocket - quick way to stuff a jacket or some wet gear.

Hipbelt pockets - not integral but another nice to have for a quick way to store my trail snacks or bar.

Contoured shoulder straps - added comfort

Good pack material durabilty - not necessarily "bombproof" but nothing too lightweight. Good balance between durability & weight.

Sleeping bag compartment.

Tapered bottom would help keep the pack weight higher.


I personally use a North Face Crestone 60.
Has a removeable top lid that converts to a hip pack. Has a small panel opening which I can use to access gear from pack bottom. Also has a sleeping bag compartment. Canted water bottle pocket for easy retrieval of water bottle while wearing the pack. Might have to replace the carbon fiber stays with aluminum ones though.


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## WWhermit

swjohnsey said:


> Interesting discussion. I just finished living out of a pack for 5 1/2 months and 2,200 miles plus I carred a large ALICE for about a million miles as a LRRP.
> 
> Y'all need to check out some of the botique pack makers. My favorite is ULA, Ultra Light Adventure. They make a really excellent pack at a reasonable price, light but durable. I carried a ULA Ohm 2.0 and also have a Catalyst. As you can imagine folks who do that kind of mileage figure out what works and what doesn't.
> 
> I carried tent, bag, pad, cooking gear plus 3-5 days food and quart or so of water. Total weight never exceeded 20 lbs.
> 
> Camelbaks are heavy. Most folks on the trail substitute a couple of 1l Gatorade bottles, they are very tough, very light, have wide mouth and the price is right.


I carry the ULA Circuit myself, and for backpacking, would use nothing else!! It's an awesome pack!

For my bugout bag, I chose the Osprey Talon 44. It fits my bugout gear better, and has enough capacity that I carry what I need, carries it well, and has a few features that I think is better for bugout than my ULA. Carrying a Ruger 10/22 Takedown, for example, fits better where I need it.

I also agree with you about the water, although if you look in my packs, you'll still see a bladder. Old habit die hard, I guess.


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