# Livestock Guardian Animals



## *Andi

As we have more than a few threads talking about "some" Livestock Guardian Animals lets look at them as a whole and what works for you.

It is not as easy as turning a dog, donkey or lama out with you stock and telling them to do their job...

The success of each species as a guardian depends upon a number of factors including the type, scale and location of a domestic operation... along with what wild critter we know to be in the area. (two legs or four ... )

We shall start with Guardian dogs and go with what wiki has to offer for a start...

There are many breeds of LGDs, many of which are little known outside of the regions in which they are still worked. Although some breeds are known to display traits advantageous to guarding livestock, any breed of dog, crossbreed or "mongrel" dog (so long as it is large enough and healthy enough to keep up with the livestock) can guard livestock so long as it is trained effectively to protect the herd. Some specialist livestock guarding dog breeds include... see link ...

Livestock guardian dogs stay with the group of animals they protect as a full-time member of the flock or herd. Their ability to guard their herd is mainly instinctive, as the dog is bonded to the herd from an early age.[1] Unlike the often smaller herding dogs that control the movement of the livestock, LGDs blend in with them, watching for intruders within the flock. The mere presence of a guardian dog is usually enough to ward off some predators, and LGDs will confront predators by vocal intimidation, barking, and displaying very aggressive behavior. The dog may attack or fight with a predator to protect the flock, if they are not able to drive predators off otherwise.[2] Livestock guardians may actively look for predators within protected territory to catch and destroy them, and there are known cases of dogs luring coyotes to the source of food to hunt them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livestock_guardian_dog

While many of folks talk of the Great Pyrenees, there are many others willing to be in the spot and do the job. Some that fall into the job as a natural ... like my rat terrier/mix.

To be continued ...


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## cowboyhermit

Aside from the standard "white guardian dog" such as Great Pyrenees, Kuvasz, Akbash, Maremma sheepdog, and others there are some more extreme alternatives. These are not your average pup, they need *real training* and are NOT for everybody.

Kangal Dogs are not much heavier than standard breeds but they are more "lanky" and kill wolves (European wolves) regularly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangal_Dog









Caucasian shepherds are big and aggressive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Shepherd_Dog









Tibetan mastiffs are a "primitive" breed not far removed from wolves but big and tough.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_mastiff


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## CrackbottomLouis

That last picture was pretty intimidating. Wouldn't want to be unarmed facing a couple of those. Pucker factor.


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## crabapple

My family live outside of a small southern town & are my Mutual Assistance Group (learned about M.A.G.'s here) & BOL, we have 7 lots on 35 acres.
One has 2 pitt bull pups that he is training for home Guarding work.
But no large animals to train for LGA, are pit bulldogs good for GLA or not & where would one get help training them?


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## Coastal

My Presa/Mastiff Mutt just chased two Herons away from the Koi pond as I was typing...he comes by it naturally....hears/smells rabbits outside, skunks, small birds.....quite amazing what he can hear and chase!


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## cowboyhermit

Pit bulls can be very protective, especially against other dogs and coyotes. They aren't well suited to the climate where I'm at, that is something to consider for sure. Also if you actually expect the dog to have to fight dogs/wolves/coyotes then a big collar (it doesn't need spikes but that was how they were back in the day) will give them a big advantage, especially in a breed without a lot of hair.
Training is not something easy to explain, at least for me, so much depends on how the animal responds and the situation. The old standby for a "true" guardian dog was to raise the pup right in with the sheep or whatever they are to guard. There are advantages and disadvantages to this method.


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## Jimthewagontraveler

Excellent thread Andi.
Since my position is well known I will take a back seat for a while and let this thread develop.
But will reserve the right to share my reasons and choices later on.
So lets help Andi kick this thread guys and gals.


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## cowboyhermit

Jimthewagontraveler said:


> Excellent thread Andi.
> Since my position is well known I will take a back seat for a while and let this thread develop.
> But will reserve the right to share my reasons and choices later on.
> So lets help Andi kick this thread guys and gals.


I am sure it is not well know to everyone, especially newcomers to the site, I was wondering why you didn't add your 2cents yet.


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## *Andi

cowboyhermit said:


> Training is not something easy to explain, at least for me, so much depends on how the animal responds and the situation. The old standby for a "true" guardian dog was to raise the pup right in with the sheep or whatever they are to guard. There are advantages and disadvantages to this method.


I think ...(but what do I know)... the nature insist within the dog... is the key. Two of my Great Pyrenees had it and the third did not... (now that was a :ignore

My rat terrier/mix is one heck of a guardian dog ... she is a natural. (no training) If something on the farm is "different" No matter if it is a wild critter or a new calf ... She will be the first to let me know. Now... can she take on a pack of "wolves"... ( or enter evil wild critter here)... No, but I will know well ahead of time that they are on the way.

IMO ...

A livestock guardian dog can be of many breeds. (But that last picture that cowboyhermit posted, was so very cool and I'm not going to screw with that dog. )

I was going to move on to Molly & May but as we have a few questions, of now ... we will stay with the dogs.


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## *Andi

Jimthewagontraveler said:


> Excellent thread Andi.
> Since my position is well known I will take a back seat for a while and let this thread develop.
> But will reserve the right to share my reasons and choices later on.
> So lets help Andi kick this thread guys and gals.


Why wait ... Jump right in ...


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## cowboyhermit

Absolutely, some dogs will be naturals, some can be taught with a little more effort, and others will :brickwall::gaah::surrender:

I certainly agree about the mixed breeds, we had a mixed breed dog with none of the "right" attributes for livestock when I was a kid and remembering her still amazes me, perfect all around farm dog.

Tibetan Mastiffs really are incredible dogs but the last thing this world needs is everyone running out to get one. They can be a perfect all around dog but only with the proper circumstances and if a dog like any of those I posted goes bad it is a disaster for all involved.










I look forward to hearing about people's experience with other animals too.


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## *Andi

I like the ... Like all flock guardian breeds, they are intelligent and stubborn to a fault. 

But I would not screw with a Tibetan Mastiffs...


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## Jimthewagontraveler

OK BUCKLE UP. But remember these are MY stories. PART 1
I am old school.
That can mean I can be very harsh.[sometimes]
My choice is the Pyrenese.
I have bloodlines sent to several countries.
All my records have been lost but in my breeding Pyr years we sent to Japan and Arkansas.
We never cared about papering our pups and I never sold a pup over $100.
I also NEVER gave a pup if you cant pay $50 you cant afford to keep up a goldfish.
Every single problem I have ever had with my bloodline was my fault because I sold to someone who cant or wont listen cant or wont learn.
A GREAT WHITE PYRENESE is not a dog.
Get that mindset from the start or get on down the road.
A Pyr is an ancient breed of warrior canine.
In their native country you have 2 they take turns 1 week of excellent care guarding the inside of the house door.
1 week of they stay ALONE on the mountain with the flock.
They come to your home at 6 weeks of age [not 8] YOU bottle feed handle and expose to all forms of family life.
At 4 months of age they begin to spend time in a pen that shares a wall with every type of animal you want them to protect. NOT THE SAME PEN.
Other than that Pen that pup is part of your hip.
If it is thanksgiving and your family doesnt like your dog you DO NOT GO.
You put more care into your first Pyr than a human child.
Sound harsh? TOUGH!
Would you send that 3 year old human into his death battle?
Give more get more.
That is What a Pyr is for it is the reason for the breed since mankind walked out of Africa.
Yes I believe in evolution [sort of] I wasnt there and God has better things to do than explain how he did what he did.
I have never killed a PYR for cowardice[thats to old school for me]
I will never breed a 3 year old coward.
1 death sin for a Pyr is agression towards Human children.
My daughter used a Pyr bitch as her first walker.
That dog never once scooted off away from her and stopped every time the baby fell over till she climbed up again.
How well would you do having a child use your butt fur as a climbing vine?
Her name is written on paper and stored with a portion of the ashes from every Pyr we ever had who died with honor.
I will cut this into parts because I have no idea how much I can send at once.
And if you follow dog genes from mountain top to mountain top it sort of hints at africa as our beginning?


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## Jimthewagontraveler

At one point in time I had to leave Some pups on a concrete porch boxed in with hay bales for several hours several days in a row.
One day I came home to find their aunt blind in one eye and 2 well seperated claw marks on the top of her head.
The owls visiting my woods were never seen again.
One of them had made a pass at me a few days before.
I learned, The dog paid for my slow learning.
Her name is written down.
We have used our Pyrs to pull a lot this is a traditional use for them.
The first Pyr we pulled with had her own cart lightweight, strong,$40 dollers per wheel.
It was 2 children wide.[This is where the mistake begins]
Down a very slight hill on cobblestone 1 stone was missing it grabbed the right tire.
Just as she changed her stride.
She rode the cart home.
I am weeping now.
She paid for my stupidity.
She lived many years but never got to pull again.
Her name is written down.
One spring we had a family emergency and had a friend care for our Pyrs.
They had to be staked down hill from an ancient rock pile that had many large trees to provide shade.
The weather warmed drastically in just a few days.
Rock piles often harbour snakes and rats.
Neither sister would abandon the other and those who broke free joined in.
While our prime bitch guarded the puppies in a small cave she had excavated.
MY best friend [BROTHER] and I wept as the crematorium did its job.
We were almost wiped out.
Their names are written down.
I learned the PYR PACK paid heavily.
END OF PART 2


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## Jimthewagontraveler

Thats enough of my mistakes see that you dont repeat them.
Now I will tell about one of my bondmate studs.
At 6 months of age he and his mother dug up and killed my friend.
Adult male beaver [The Cherokee chief said I was blessed when he was allowed by the beaver to sit 20 yards away while the beaver and I watched the creek together about 5 feet apart]
I held my anger and found out years later his mom had bred constantly and never been fed in 3 years.
I found her hidden pile in the woods because my bondmate [her son] allowed me to follow their hunt.
Her pile held every animal I could recognise.[many many deer]
I learned she paid and became a tied dog for the rest of her life.
He went on to become one of our proudest memories.
With 7 kills to his name in 1 night. [coyote adults we dont count pups]
Many bad accidents happened to her previous owner.
It was as if GOD had cursed him. Im ok with that.
One of our pups went to a very large expensive quarter horse farm.
The owner listened and learned well.
One day his Pyr grabbed his coat sleeve and would not let him in his truck.
He was scared of his own PYR.
Finally he allowed the Pyr to drag him down the field.
Across 60 acres where he found his prize mare had foaled early and was caught in a thicket by the afterbirth still attached inside her.
The mare was valued at $250,000 the baby lived after he cut open the sack.
His family later divorced,The horses left,His children left,His Pyr left to live with 5 children, ducks,chickens,GOATS.
NOTE.If your bondmate leaves YOU did something wrong.
END PART 3


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## Jimthewagontraveler

I remember a very early foggy morning the fog rolling across my beard and long hair until I shivered and dripped.
We had a new wagon 4 wheels,Three dogs.
High speed on level pavement.
I had a special song just for the dogs at full throttle.
We come from the land of ice and snow.
We come from the cold winds blow.
I sang,They sang!
My reputation as a sane stable person went out the window in that town.
The tennents who shared a house with me paid their rent on time for months, ALL of them.
THE ANIMAL RIGHTS PEOPLE CAME TO VISIT.
I was told if I ever pulled again every animal I had would be impounded.
The stud who had made 7 kills died within 6 months.
NO VISIBLE CAUSE OF DEATH.
His fastest pulling mate lived another month.
NO VISIBLE CAUSE OF DEATH.
The biggest most beautiful female Pyr we ever had transitioned sort of ok.
She always missed her sister the little hard puller.
About 18 months after no pulling her flesh and muscles began to turn to a white/clear liquid.
The bones became exposed.
No one had ever seen anything like this[vet,s]
I carried her to a secure hidden location My daughter said good by to her bondmate and I fed here her favorite meal.
That dogs last memory was being given second helpings of her favorite steak.
As she reached for the last bite she felt no pain and saw nothing unusual when her world went dark.
I live with this memory as well as the memory of the many children ages 6-18 who rode that wagon until midnight instead of doing other things unsupervised.
All the trophys and ribbons are gone now.
The memories will never die.good or bad.


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## Jimthewagontraveler

My family was later destoyed by our mom who suffered from mental issues.
I held her for 18 years.
The average for that disease is 2 years.
For a while I lived alone except for my bond mate LUTAK and 2 percheron draft horses who have defended my life.
Percherons and Pyr on seperate occasions.
Those who have caught me weak sick or off guard all tasted very well.
My ex wife died recently and at the funeral my son and his beautiful wife and sons have decided to move home.
His 6 month old bond mate is named after my lead puller and 7 killer YUKON.
My daughter who also has a young healthy family and strong young husband to be proud of has chosen to add a new name to the roster KYRA.
THE END.
any questions?


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## Jimthewagontraveler

sorry to jack your thread andi


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## Dakine

CrackbottomLouis said:


> That last picture was pretty intimidating. Wouldn't want to be unarmed facing a couple of those. Pucker factor.


Yeah totally! I saw that and thought dog/bear!!! sucks to be whoever was on the receiving end of that hostility!


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## Jimthewagontraveler

Um.... 
My first thought on seeing that dogs body language was 
Something along the lines of " He had so better be threatening 
something dangerous to me and mine or that is his last threat"
1 reason I went Pyr was I put as much value on the dog not
attacking at the wrong time as I do on the dog attacking at the 
right time. 
My daughters pup recently got surprised and spun around with
an open mouth.
As soon as it saw that it had been caught off guard by a toddler it reacted appropriately.
But......????
It will be watched.
It's breeding and lifestyle options hang in the balance.


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## Kattscrowd

I am blessed with 3 fantastic LGDs.. each has it's own specialty and each are well suited for their jobs. I have a pry/anatolian mix and he's my true LGD. He patrols the entirety of the farm and runs off any coyote, bear, cat that happens to come our way. He's awesome, standoffish with humans that aren't his own, very friendly and loving with us. He also patrols my son (10) and I can almost hear him sigh heavily when Elijah comes out.. he knows that kid is going to make him wake up and move during the heat of the day 
Then I have a younger female that will be bred to Dawg when she's old enough (gotta get a couple more LGD's for hubsters meat goat project) She's 1/2 pry, 1/4 anatolian, and 1/4 sarplaninac. She's a lot friendlier than Dawg, but was raised with us, from 6 wks and treated like family. She comes in the house after patrols (we have a large dog door) She does her job seriously with Dawg, but hangs around here better. She's bonded with her goats and is allowed out in the baby goat pen with the does, the only dog allowed out there by the does, they won't tolerate another dog out there. 
We have an older pry/catahoula mix that is the best 'around the barnyard' dog. We haven't had any chickens bothered by predators in many years. She takes her job seriously.. especially skunks.. she takes delight in coming in and jumping on the bed 'perfumed' you can almost see her grin  She doesn't go around the perimeter, but stays right up here. She'll hop in the truck and go to town or the back pasture. She sits on the porch and barks when Dawg and Emily are coyote hunting, but that's about it 
All three of them have differing jobs, they work wonderfully for our farm. The problem I've had with full prys is that they tend to run off the land. We have 90 acres. Dawg doesn't cross the lines, he's awesome in that. But we had two who did and our 'neighbor' shot them. They weren't on his land at all, but he felt the need to target practice :brickwall:  I was crushed. 
I also find that having a good LGD can help train future LGDs Dawg is training Emily. Xena also showed Ems the ropes around the barnyard.. Xena watches the goats when they kid too, just not in their pen. We are truly blessed. But we also worked for it.
YMMV


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## *Andi

*Donkeys ...*

In order for donkeys to provide the best predator protection possible it is important to first understand how they protect the flock. The livestock guard animal, regardless of species, is really no different than a security guard, in that in order to provide protection they must both be in the right place at the right time. The more time the guard animals spends with the flock the more likely it will be present when needed. The donkey's natural herding instinct means if properly bonded to the sheep, it will stay with the sheep most of the time. The donkey's herding instinct combined with its inherent dislike and aggressiveness towards coyotes and dogs can make it an effective livestock guard animal... if managed properly.

Donkeys rely predominantly on sight and sound to detect intruders. When approached, sheep will tend to move so the guard animal is between the intruder and themselves. The donkeys' loud brays and quick pursuit will scare away predators and may also alert the shepherd. In most instances donkeys will confront and chase dogs or coyotes out of the pasture. If the canines do not retreat quickly the donkeys will attack them by rising up on their hind legs and striking with both front feet. A solid blow can injure, kill or at the very least discourage the predator.

A nice read ...

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/sheep/facts/donkey2.htm


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## kyredneck

Wasn't there a politician (mayor I think) killed by a guardian donkey in Texas not too long ago?



cowboyhermit said:


> Aside from the standard "white guardian dog" such as Great Pyrenees, Kuvasz, Akbash, Maremma sheepdog, and others there are some more extreme alternatives. These are not your average pup, they need *real training* and are NOT for everybody.
> 
> Kangal Dogs are not much heavier than standard breeds but they are more "lanky" and kill wolves (European wolves) regularly....


Of course these aren't the big timber wolves of the north, but:






Not a doubt in my mind 'Kandi' would guard my granddaughter 'Reese'. I love this breed of dog.


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