# Car battery as power source



## Mase92 (Feb 4, 2013)

I do not feel this would be a very long term sustainable power source but this winter has taught me a few things. Solar is probably not an option in Michigan unless it mobile and well, I don't have that kind of room also in a grid down situation, a generator would be a "HEY COME GET ME" sign in my neighborhood. Too loud and it would come out way low on the risk vs reward on fuel usage.

So, after doing some research, I think I've picked a source that could get me thru some rough spots (very cold days, communications or small battery charger, fan, lamps) if we are without power for long.

My prospective set up, which I'm working on will go like so;
-Several rotatable auto batteries.
-At least 3 inverters, to plug appliance into (different wattages).
-Battery charger, to charge a second battery off the car.
-Three vehicles- 1 4 cylinder that will run about 3 hours or more on gas depending on the outside temp. This car makes almost ZERO noise when running. 
-15+ gallons of gas plus what is in my tanks.

My questions are;
-How long could I potentially keep this system running? (in other words, what is the weakest link in this set up?)
-Are deep cycle batteries and 6V batteries that much better than normal car batteries? (please source or explain if you can, this is something lost on me)
-How could I improve or supplement this system to make it better/last longer?
-Any sources I could look at that you might have on this topic to help a lost person out with this system?
-Recommendations for dependable batteries makes vs another brand and is one brand of inverters better than another?

**I searched for this here, both with the search feature and Google. The only thing that came up was a brief post in a solar panel thread. If it's been done before, sorry. If you could like that for help, that'd be great.


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## jeff47041 (Jan 5, 2013)

Here is the difference between deep cycle marine battery versus car battery. Basically, you'll ruin a car battery if you constantly discharge it completely.

Both car batteries and deep cycle batteries are lead-acid batteries that use exactly the same chemistry for their operation (see How Batteries Work for more information). The difference is in the way that the batteries optimize their design:
•A car's battery is designed to provide a very large amount of current for a short period of time. This surge of current is needed to turn the engine over during starting. Once the engine starts, the alternator provides all the power that the car needs, so a car battery may go through its entire life without ever being drained more than 20 percent of its total capacity. Used in this way, a car battery can last a number of years. To achieve a large amount of current, a car battery uses thin plates in order to increase its surface area.
•A deep cycle battery is designed to provide a steady amount of current over a long period of time. A deep cycle battery can provide a surge when needed, but nothing like the surge a car battery can. A deep cycle battery is also designed to be deeply discharged over and over again (something that would ruin a car battery very quickly). To accomplish this, a deep cycle battery uses thicker plates.

A car battery typically has two ratings:
•CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) - The number of amps that the battery can produce at 32 degrees F (0 degrees C) for 30 seconds
•RC (Reserve Capacity) - The number of minutes that the battery can deliver 25 amps while keeping its voltage above 10.5 volts

Typically, a deep cycle battery will have two or three times the RC of a car battery, but will deliver one-half or three-quarters the CCAs. In addition, a deep cycle battery can withstand several hundred total discharge/recharge cycles, while a car battery is not designed to be totally discharged.

In regards to your idea of running the 4 cylinder car to charge batteries, I can't imagine running a, perhaps, 120 hp engine to charge a battery, is good use of fuel. My 5 hp generator will run for around 4 hours on about 1/2 gallon of gas. Louder? Yes, but you can quiet them with better mufflers (youtube has a lot of videos for that)


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## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

I'm with Jeff on using deep cycle batteries instead of car batteries.

I'd give a generator a 2nd look. Some of the new ones are really quiet. No louder than your car. Deep cycle batteries are about $100 each and will likely need replaced every 5 years. A generator will last much longer when used casually. _Many also have 12V chargers so you could charge a battery that way.

_I'd consider a mix of generator + inverter/battery. Use the generator when a little more power is needed (like running the fridge for a few hours a day) then the inverter/battery at night when you only need a couple lights.


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## jnrdesertrats (Jul 3, 2010)

If solar is out is wind an option. Also a Honda 2k generator is about the most quiet made and small. I have been in camp grounds and if you did not see it you probably would not know it was there. They also have a built in 12v system.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Do a little outside the box thinking on this one, 12 volt booster packs often have good quality AGM batteries. 
we have several of these http://www.batterychargers.com/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductName=94026989CA

another plan might be to see if there is room in one of you everyday vehicles for a second battery, preferably a deep cycle,

Automotive alternators won't last very long acting as a battery charger at engine idle, because the lower operating speed creates more heat and the cooling fan doesn't blow much air.

there are almost silent generators on the market now, I believe Yamaha builds them too

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/quick_search.php


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## readytogo (Apr 6, 2013)

I`m no expert on the subject and good answers have been given here but this posting is a good coincidence because I was looking into this same idea for my van and came out with 2 Optima deep cycle batteries, a continuous duty solenoid between the two batteries, one primary and the other one as secondary, 12 volt solar charger and a 120v inverter, that was my idea and is on my future to-do list.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

An automotive battery has thinner plates. The advantage to thin is that it increases surface area. The disadvantage is that it will use it's charge up rapidly since there is no "depth" to the charge.

A deep cycle battery has thicker plates but fewer of them. Less surface area exposed means you do not have as much "instant" capacity available. However, since the plates are thicker it takes longer to discharge them.

Battery plates are kind of like a sponge. Take a dry sponge and drop it in the water and the outside is first saturated then the moisture slowly reaches the inside and the sponge is fully saturated. Battery plates work the same way.

The thin plates of a vehicle battery are like a thin sponge. They can be recharged quickly because the "charge" is able to make it to the inside of the plates faster. However, it also discharges faster for the same reason. An automotive battery can be compared to a sprinter ... they can go fast but not very far.

The thick plates of a deep cycle battery are like a thick sponge. It will hold more water simply because it's individual volume is larger. It also takes longer to saturate (and discharge) and recharge because it's surface area is small compared to the total volume. Deep cycle batteries are more like a long-distance runner. They are built for the long haul rather than a short burst of energy.

Most modern batteries whether deep cycle or automotive have plenty of power to start your vehicle. Batteries are much, much, much more powerful than they were twenty years ago so you could use a deep cycle battery to start your vehicle in most cases. Many people do.

The problem with a deep cycle battery when used in automotive applications is a result of their strength. As a battery discharges the surface of the plate discharges faster than the center of the plate. That's why you can run a battery down trying to start your car and let it sit for a few minutes and it will often have more power when you return later to try it again. The charge left in the center of the plates has "leached" to the outside where it can be used. Because of it's thin plates an automotive battery can be fully recharged quicker than a deep cycle battery when both are drawn down a significant amount.

However, when a deep cycle battery is drawn down (we'll say 50 percent) it may take awhile to fully recharge it because it takes time for the charge to saturate the center of the plates. A good charge controller as used in a solar power system has a cycle called "equalization" built into it. The better ones are programmable but most put your batteries through the equalization cycle once every thirty days. What they do is increase the charging voltage for a specified time period to "force" the charge deep into the plates on the battery. This ensures that your plates are fully and completely charged up periodically.

The voltage regulator on your vehicle doesn't do this and it's possible that over time you may shorten the lifespan of a deep cycle battery used for automotive applications (because the plates never get fully recharged). Many cheap charge controllers (used primarily in RV's) have the same problem and people report significantly longer battery life when switching to better controllers.

It's not just the number of charge/discharge cycles that determine battery life but also the depth of the cycles. Discharging a battery only 10 percent will give you many more cycles of life than discharging it 50 percent.

What you are doing will work but it won't be cost effective in either fuel to recharge the battery or in battery life expectancy.

Use what you have until you can get a quiet generator or silence a regular generator. Get a good battery charger and recharge batteries when you are running your generator. We used an automotive fast charger for years at home (and still do occasionally). You can recharge several batteries at once by connecting them in series on the charger (it will take longer overall though).

I have not had good results with "yellow" inverters. I know that doesn't make sense but I've used different "brands" and if they were yellow I'm assuming they were contracted out of the same manufacturing facility. We've had the best luck with Zantrex. We have a thousand watt inverter and a three-thousand watt inverter in our motorhome in Nevada; a 750 watt inverter in our Uhaul conversion/motorhome/camper; and a thousand watt, a two-thousand watt, and an 850 watt inverter in our home in MT. We use 40 to 60 watt plug-in inverters in our vehicles when on the road. Again, the yellow one has more issues than other brands.

Many cheap inverters over one-thousand watt (and all of the yellow ones we've used) run a cooling fan all the time the inverter is turned on. That needlessly sucks power from the batteries. Some inverters use three or more cooling fans. (Our 850 watt trace inverter and the better quality inverters do not turn on the cooling fan until it is needed.) We only use the higher watt inverters as we need them for the microwave or larger power tools. I would install any inverter over 500 watts with a direct bolt-on cable hook up rather than using alligator clamps (like jumper cables). The high draw of larger inverters eventually burns out the clamps in my experience (plus they will not give you full output capacity using just the cable clamps).

When it comes to generators I prefer at least 3500 watt capacity to about 4500 watt capacity (continuous ... not surge capacity!) Smaller ones aren't that great in my experience and the cheap ones often do not hit anywhere near their rated capacity. We have one 3500 watt RV generator from Champion (ours has some issues and I'm not sure I'd ever buy another one); one ancient 4000 watt Generac (it's had hard use for over ten years now ... it's tired but still works) and one 7,000 watt Champion that's been a good generator (I use it only for welding or extended time on my wood working equipment). The big one uses significantly more fuel than the smaller ones.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

I think everybody has given good info, I especially think that charging batteries while a generator is running is a good idea. One point though;



ZoomZoom said:


> ...
> Deep cycle batteries are about $100 each and will likely need replaced every 5 years.
> ...


IMHO, good (not great) deep cycle batteries should last at least 5 years in deep cycle service, kept properly maintained they should last much longer in a back-up situation.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

Here's a link that explains the differences in types along with what exactly is going on. It also talks about bending of the positive plates which is one method of failure due to over-discharge. 
http://www.venselenterprises.com/techtipsfromdick_files/batteries.pdf

All you ever wanted to know about batteries
http://www.powerstream.com/1922/battery_1922_WITTE/battery_WITTE.htm#toc

"trivia"... batteries are constructed with an odd number of plates so that every positive plate will have a negative plate on each side. Positive plates are more succeptable to buckling and keeping a negative on each side reduces the amount of buckling to any single direction.


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## readytogo (Apr 6, 2013)

http://www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/about
and dual battery system.........
http://chrisb.users.superford.org/Bronco/Projects/Dual_Batteries/Dual_Batteries.html

https://www.google.com/search?q=con...=cuLsVOStNYKzggT14oH4Aw&ved=0CB0QsAQ#imgdii=_


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

Just a little info on Marine/RV/Trailer type, so called deep cycle, many are just a compromise between a car/truck battery and a true deep cycle as they are set up for cranking outboard motors. I've had reliability problems with them, they just don't hold up to the heavy draw downs like I have given to the 6 volt golf cart batteries we use on the solar charged and engine charged, while driving the motor home, system. Sulfation builds up on the battery plates during charge-discharge cycles and causes the batteries to be less efficient. A good inverter charger, like Xantrex or Magnum Energy have an manual Equalization (EQ) charge stage to stir up stratified electrolyte and try to reverse battery plate sufation, this EQ stage uses higher than normal charge voltages. It's not something that is done on a frequent level as battery plates can warp and insulators between plate could be damaged, this EQ charge stage should only be used on true deep cycle better quality batteries and electrolyte levels need to be checked after the EQ cycle because the batteries may boil off due to that charge process. One more thing, most all of the low maintenance/ no maintenance car batteries contain calcium in the lead plates, they don't like to be discharged all that much before they outright fail. Perhaps, with a small inverter system, a Marine/RV battery could give you pretty good service over your regular car battery. Just my few pennys worth of info.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

My answers will depend on whether you drive daily or not. I drive 30 minutes daily, two times - - for a total of 1 hour of driving. My alternator is 130 amps.

This is my process:
I have a tray in place in the bed of my truck (so they don't slide around) for two extra automotive batteries, and a set of 8 gauge jumper cables cut in half with an "Anderson Power Pole" connector (mounted under the bed rail) on the end of one set, and the std red/black clamps on the other. The connector under the bed rail is wired direct to the truck's main battery, and it's also where I plug in my 3000lb winch.

When I get to my cabin at night, I take the two batteries I wish to charge and set them on the path to get them ready to haul out by hand in the morning. It's about a 150-200 yard hike from cabin to truck, so I get some good arm muscle exercise with one in each hand. (I don't use a LOT of electricity. I only need to do this about once a week when it's perpetually cloudy - - if I have a good 3-4 days of straight sun, it isn't needed.)

I place them in the tray in the back of the bed, and start the truck. With 130 amps alternator, the main truck starting battery charges almost instantly while I dig out the cable clamps. I plug into the Anderson connector, and then clamp the red & blacks to the battery I wish to charge. Sometime I hear the engine bog slightly under the increased alternator load, but if it's perceptible at all it isn't too much. I really don't let my batteries get that low in the first place. 

I then add a second set of jumpers to connect the second battery to the first. Generally, the set of batteries are charged by the time I'm done driving 30 minutes. I leave everything hooked up while I am at work. I've never had a "low battery" after my shift when I get in the truck. I then drive 30 minutes back to the cabin to finish charging the pair of batteries... I then disconnect all the cables and hike them back up to the cabin.. 

I try to not let my batteries ever get below 11.90 volts if I can help it.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

LincTex said:


> When I get to my cabin at night, I take the two batteries I wish to charge and set them on the path to get them ready to haul out by hand in the morning. It's about a 150-200 yard hike from cabin to truck, so I get some good arm muscle exercise with one in each hand.


They are not heavy when they aren't fully charged.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

.
.
NOTE TO ALL: Those little 12 volt DC output lugs on most generators are usually "wishful thinking". Don't rely on them to charge your "battery bank". They are good for very light charging only READ MORE about this BELOW

.
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MORE than anything when choosing a generator - - - - 
keep in mind how much you REALISTICALLY want to power with it! 
Buy one big enough, but not too big.
.
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I always recommend anyone/everyone get a generator. It doesn't have to be big and fancy - something is better than nothing, and "small" uses less fuel.
.
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These first three are all "variable speed" per load:
.

1st choice : Honda EU1000i ~ $800
Yes, they are small - but only burn about 8oz+ of fuel per hour under light load. I know it seems physically impossible, but man those things are good on gas! It's a "night & day quality of life" when we are used to electricity and are suddenly forced to live without it... and this little guy will light your lights, charge your batteries, and your guitar amp. You are all set!!

It will NOT power big loads - 
This thing will handle basic electrical appliances... and about 20-30 amp (or so) worth of automotive battery charger for your "battery bank recharge". I have a big 50 amp Schumacher battery charger that I *think* the little EU1000i should be able to handle with no problems, but I haven't got one to try it out on right now.
,
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2nd choice - Champion Power Equipment 73531 ~ $375 (refurb) 
http://www.supergenproducts.com/catalog/p-100024/refurbished-2000w-inverter-73531
2,000 Watt 4-Stroke Gas Powered Portable Inverter Generator
OK, these puppies are only $375 (refurb) from SuperGen products.
This one is my first choice for me, and really should be the first choice for most folks. I love mine. On "ECON" mode (throttles up and down) it will run a 5,000 BTU window unit A/C all night (7-8 hours, cycles on-and-off) and do it on one gallon of gas. I am really impressed.
NO - it is not built like a Honda EU2000i. NO - it is not as quiet as a Honda EU2000i...... but for $375 it's the best bang for the buck there is. If you have ever tried to sleep in Texas heat with no A/C, you'll be a giddy dancer paying a measly $2-3 a night to have that comfort.
The second big plus is, this thing will handle 100 amps+ worth of battery charger easily! When you live "off grid" like I do, You'll see the value in being able to come out to your cabin, fire up the generator - and in 30-60 minutes time (and only 10oz -16oz fuel) have all the batteries charged, dinner cooked, showered, and all ready to settle in for the night on battery power. When the sun shines a lot and it isn't burning hot outside, I can go for weeks without running it. In fact, owning it 6 mos now I don't think I have used 20 gallons of gas yet... and that includes when I had it running while building the cabin!!! It's quiet, powerful and very cheap on fuel. I think it's great!! 
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3rd choice - Honda EU2000i ~$1,000
All the same reasons as the Champion 2000, but it's $1,000!! Ouch!
It's also built better and much quieter than the Champion.
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4th choice - Craigslist 3500-5000 watt (price varies)
These are usually called "screamers" because they do not change RPM per load - - they run at 3600 RPM always. I see them on craigslist as cheap as $150 in good shape. IF you use one to charge your batteries with, You need at LEAST 100 amps (more is better) so you can actually place a load on it. These also handle all sorts of big appliances like major power tools/saws, microwaves and many sizes of air conditioners. 
They usually also use a lot of fuel. They are great for construction work (I used about 3-4 gallons total when building the cabin, running the "big saw" just a couple minutes every time)
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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

I saw one of the smaller Yamaha gens in operation, it is really quiet, way quieter than a Honda EU2000 under load, and of course way way quieter than the cheapys


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Tirediron said:


> I saw one of the smaller Yamaha gens in operation, it is really quiet, way quieter than a Honda EU2000 under load, and of course way way quieter than the cheapys


Don't y'all have Hyundai Inverter-type generators up there in Canada pretty cheap? I thought I saw you write about them once.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

I skimmed through the posts so I may repeat something already said.

1. I wouldn't waste money on automotive starting batteries or marine deep cycle batteries. I would buy high quality GC2 type 6 volt golf cart batteries. Wire two of them in series for 12 volts, and you'll have a greater reserve capacity than a single standard deep cycle. These batteries are designed for deep discharge and to survive in somewhat rough use. You could wire more in series to achieve higher voltages, but then you'll need an inverter you aren't likely to obtain a replacement for locally. You can also wire multiple batteries in a series/parallel configuration to maintain 12 volts. The upside to a higher voltage system is that smaller(less expensive) wiring is needed to carry the current from the battery bank to the inverter or other load. This may or may not matter depending on how you configure your system.

2. Recharging: I don't see any point in spending a ton of money on this. There are simple and relatively inexpensive solutions if you do some looking around. You could recharge from your car's alternator, but there is a good chance that you will fry the rectifier diodes, among other components, by doing so at idle. The speed is too low for the alternator's internal and/or external fans to provide enough cooling. The other problem with this solution is that your alternator will not provide maximum current at idle. Depending on the particular alternator and vehicle, it may be producing as little as 20 amps at idle. Some more modern standard equipment alternators will produce 80 amps at idle. Some even include temperature sensors to tailor charge rates and put less stress on the batteries. One final problem with using the car's alternator as a charger is that most, if not all, vehicles since the mid/late 90's have incorporated voltage regulation into the vehicle's computer rather than an easily replaceable part in the alternator. This means that you could damage your vehicle's computer by overloading it.

3. Number 2 above does not rule out using an automotive alternator to recharge your batteries. It can be done, I just wouldn't advise doing so with the alternator in your car. Used, functional automotive alternators can be had cheaply from scrapyards, some of which will even provide a guarantee. If you decided to purchase a rebuilt alternator, the Delco 10 and 12SI alternators used on millions of GM and other vehicles, can be had for around $30-$50 at orielly's. Once the alternator is obtained, you obviously need a way to spin it to produce power. This is equally inexpensive, possibly free if you find a pushmower someone is throwing away. Here's something to ponder. http://theepicenter.com/tow02077.html

4. Noise: Not an issue. The "mufflers" used on most power equipment are abysmal at noise reduction, but nothing says you can't rectify this by using a muffler from something else....like a junked car.

A bit of a bonus from the above use of a gas motor and an alternator(depending on which one) is that it can be modified to be a portable welder quite easily.  I should also mention that an alternator so converted can also run lights(not florescent) and power tools that have "universal" motors. You could incorporate a battery and an inverter for a mobile powerplant. There are quite a few videos of such setups on youtube.

I'll also be honest and say that having a generator is a pretty good idea anyway. I got lucky a while back and pulled a nice, low hour, running Onan 6500 watt generator from a motorhome at the scrapyard. It cost me around $140. It's not the only one I have, or the only one I've obtained from a scrapyard either. :2thumb:


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

zombieresponder said:


> One final problem with using the car's alternator as a charger is that most, if not all, vehicles since the mid/late 90's have incorporated voltage regulation into the vehicle's computer rather than an easily replaceable part in the alternator. This means that you could damage your vehicle's computer by overloading it.


It would have to be a _severe_ load - - like several near dead batteries. Two "low" - but not dead - batteries work fine with mine and don't cause issues. Besides, one good healthy battery (in truck) to provide surge amps to the "dead" battery makes things MUCH easier on the alternator load-wise.

The computer is no less or more safe than a internal voltage regulator - - they both adjust rotor field magnetic strength to match the load, and both also know not to over do it, so it's "no biggy". It's still best to *not* add a dead battery to the system, however.
Doing a battery "hot swap" in a running vehicle is more dangerous to computers nowadays, due to voltage spikes. There IS a capacitor/filter involved to smooth things out, but if the capacitor is toast or disconnected = poof!


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

LincTex said:


> It would have to be a _severe_ load - - like several near dead batteries. Two "low" - but not dead - batteries work fine with mine and don't cause issues. Besides, one good healthy battery (in truck) to provide surge amps to the "dead" battery makes things MUCH easier on the alternator load-wise.
> 
> The computer is no less or more safe than a internal voltage regulator - - they both adjust rotor field magnetic strength to match the load, and both also know not to over do it, so it's "no biggy". It's still best to *not* add a dead battery to the system, however.
> Doing a battery "hot swap" in a running vehicle is more dangerous to computers nowadays, due to voltage spikes. There IS a capacitor/filter involved to smooth things out, but if the capacitor is toast or disconnected = poof!


I mostly agree, though I haven't disassembled a late model alternator that still includes a capacitor. There may be one elsewhere in the system to smooth ripples/spikes. I don't know since I haven't disassembled any PCM/ECM's. Also, the capacitor in older alternators was there for RF suppression. It can be removed with no ill effect on alternator operation.

I think that the pcm is probably more vulnerable, given that rectifier diodes had to be changed to avalanche type to protect the vehicle's electronics from over voltage conditions caused by voltage regulation failure. In layman's terms for those that don't understand, if the voltage regulator fails then voltage can increase high enough to fry the computer(s). The avalanche diode is designed to fail and block current flow before this can happen. It's intended as a safeguard.

Even if the pcm based regulation _is_ more durable than an internal regulator, it is certainly more expensive to repair or replace. There are external regulator kits available to bypass the PCM regulation and fool it into thinking it's still working. These include a separate, adjustable external regulator.

Anyway, I thought I should include that bit of information as something to keep in mind.


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## Wellrounded (Sep 25, 2011)

I've used crappy old car batteries for years on a basic solar set up. Bought as discards from the local auto electrician. One being used and one in the car. One 80w solar panel to trickle feed into the one on the house. I could run two lights (this is before LEDs were available so it was blinker/indicator? globes) and a little black and white tv for about two hours a night, if the battery died I replaced it with another second hand FREE discard. I would have loved deep cycle batteries, a generator and more panels but it was all I could afford at the time. Now I have a bank of shitty old car batteries, a bank of shitty old deep cycle and 20 panels. Still works and I've spent about $250. The panels were deemed inefficient by the user ... we cleaned them and are getting near new efficiency out of them and payed nothing for them. You make do with what you can get.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

LincTex said:


> Don't y'all have Hyundai Inverter-type generators up there in Canada pretty cheap? I thought I saw you write about them once.


I have a Hyundai construction generator, that has really crappy fuel lines, along with a Hyundia water pump with the same problem.

when our old B&S powered Coleman 1700 watt lets go , I will hope to have replaced it with a similar sized invertor type.

or hopefully a solar lithium invertor system.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Mase, have you built something similar to this yet?
http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f16/d-i-y-solar-generator-less-than-208-a-23287/


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## Mase92 (Feb 4, 2013)

Anyone got any thoughts on this generator?

http://www.costco.com/Smarter-Tools...or-with-Yamaha®-Engine.product.100121916.html


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## Mase92 (Feb 4, 2013)

LincTex said:


> Mase, have you built something similar to this yet?
> http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f16/d-i-y-solar-generator-less-than-208-a-23287/


And...I'm reading that now. WOW what a great job, simple and informative. I'm impressed and learning tons. I have most of what you put on the list. Problem is, the solar panel is almost useless unless I can come up with a mobile platform to move it when we have sun.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Mase92 said:


> Anyone got any thoughts on this generator?
> 
> http://www.costco.com/Smarter-Tools...or-with-Yamaha®-Engine.product.100121916.html


Looking at the gas cap, fuel valve knob, control panel, etc... and the fact that it is 80cc, makes me think it is EAXCTLY the same as my $375 "refurbished" Champion 2000 watt inverter generator. 
I'll bet once all the plastic is off, comparing the two side-by-side will show amazing similarities.

The 80 cc MZ 80 engine is actually a Mitsubishi design. All of the Yamaha generator engines are made in china (Q.C. is very good) and the 80cc Champion engine is the same exact 80cc engine.

I'm almost willing to bet that the parallel output "accessory cable" (separate) you can use to link the two Champions together would work with this one as well.

I'd probably like it as much as I like my Champion inverter 2000 watt unit.


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## ZoomZoom (Dec 18, 2009)

Linc - What model Champion do you have?

I have a 2KW Champion as well but mine is the cube/stack style.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Wellrounded said:


> I've used crappy old car batteries for years on a basic solar set up. ...Now I have a bank of shitty old car batteries, a bank of shitty old deep cycle and 20 panels. Still works and I've spent about $250.


There are a couple of tricks that have worked in the past to make a car battery last a little longer. I haven't tried it with the newer batteries.

These new car batteries are just not made AT ALL like they used to be. I used to be able to make a car battery last for 6-7 years, now it seems they are toast in 3!!

What I find happens is that they'll still charge well - - all the way up to full voltage . . but they have very little capacity or "reserve". I have one right now that'll charge up all the way, and will crank any engine like crazy for all of about 3-5 seconds, and then its flat dead. I don't get it.

One thing that REALLY surprises me is how fast the plates "break down". They seemingly dissolve and fill the bottom of each chamber with red/grey "dust". I have a couple of car batteries I'm trying to rejuvenate right now by draining the acid and washing out the cells to get all the dust/sediment out. All of the crud settles to the bottom of the acid when it's placed in a mason jar. I'm hoping I can pour the acid back in and have a good battery again.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

ZoomZoom said:


> Linc - What model Champion do you have?
> 
> I have a 2KW Champion as well but mine is the cube/stack style.


That's exactly what I have, a 73531 from http://www.supergenproducts.com/catalog/cat-100002/inverter-generators

http://www.supergenproducts.com/catalog/p-100024/refurbished-2000w-inverter-73531

Mine *doesn't* have the 12 VDC output plug like your picture, but no worries... I wouldn't use it anyway.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

LincTex said:


> Looking at the gas cap, fuel valve knob, control panel, etc... and the fact that it is 80cc, makes me think it is EAXCTLY the same as my $375 "refurbished" Champion 2000 watt inverter generator.
> I'll bet once all the plastic is off, comparing the two side-by-side will show amazing similarities.
> 
> The 80 cc MZ 80 engine is actually a Mitsubishi design. All of the Yamaha generator engines are made in china (Q.C. is very good) and the 80cc Champion engine is the same exact 80cc engine.
> ...


Since you seem well informed on these, I've got a question or two.  How is parts support on the champion units? Is the generator(alternator) a brushed or brushless design?


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## LastOutlaw (Jun 1, 2013)

*Honda EU2000i*

I have a Honda EU2000i and I love it. Very quiet and I can run it all night on one gallon of fuel. Two of them can be linked directly together for 4000 watt output at 30 amps. Starts on the first pull. Light weight and perfect for portable use. iI grab it when I'm building something and easily carry it in one hand and my skilsaw in the other and begin working.
I've heard the Yamaha is comparable.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

LincTex said:


> There are a couple of tricks that have worked in the past to make a car battery last a little longer. I haven't tried it with the newer batteries.
> 
> These new car batteries are just not made AT ALL like they used to be. I used to be able to make a car battery last for 6-7 years, now it seems they are toast in 3!!
> 
> ...


I think what you are talking about is what I mentioned about low maintenance/no maintenance batteries using calcium in their plates. I've also read warnings about using these batteries for melting the lead out of as the fumes are supposed to be dangerous.


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## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

LincTex said:


> There are a couple of tricks that have worked in the past to make a car battery last a little longer. I haven't tried it with the newer batteries.
> 
> These new car batteries are just not made AT ALL like they used to be. I used to be able to make a car battery last for 6-7 years, now it seems they are toast in 3!!
> 
> ...


It may be past the point of repair but the plates have become sulfated. You have to occasionally drive the chemical reaction further by upping the charging voltage (after the battery is fully charged). This helps force the PbSO4 (lead sulfate) and H2O back to Pb (lead) and H2SO4 (sulfuric acid)

PM + PbO2 + H2SO4 «--» PBSO4 + H20 + electrons
Lead + sponge lead + sulfuric acid ««converts to/from»» lead sulfate + water + electricity

I've never used this technique but there are chargers that deliver high current pulses that are claimed to recondition batteries that have sat for a very long time and become very sulfates.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

Here's a DIY battery desulfator. http://www.instructables.com/id/Desulfator-for-12V-Car-Batteries-in-an-Altoids-Ti/

Here's some info: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/sulfation_and_how_to_prevent_it


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

zombieresponder said:


> Since you seem well informed on these, I've got a question or two.  How is parts support on the champion units? Is the generator(alternator) a brushed or brushless design?


1) I don't know - I haven't had to order any parts. I only changed the oil once in 100 hours, and the oil was so clean I could have left it in still. I never added a drop in 100 hours. That's impressive.

2) I'm sure it's brushless of some type, unless it has slip rings like a car alternator does. I have had the side panels off to look around inside, but never been into the "guts". Pretty sure there's no commutator.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

labotomi said:


> You have to occasionally drive the chemical reaction further by upping the charging voltage (after the battery is fully charged). This helps force the PbSO4 (lead sulfate) and H2O back to Pb (lead) and H2SO4 (sulfuric acid)


I hook 'em up to my DC arc welder (amps turned all the way down), and run the input at 120VAC instead of 240VAC. This gives an OCV of about 23 VDC at the leads. I can't leave them on for long or they'll boil pretty good. This does help.

I'm still playing with different ideas.... 
I've got more than 20 bad/dead car batteries to play with. 
I'm going to do the "Alum trick" on a few and see how they hold up after that.

.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

I have one truck that is setup with a number of selectable incandescent bulbs in the field circuit, more bulbs = more volts, I can often get a couple of more seasons out of a battery with this set up, 14 years from a Costco/ Johnson controls battery that was the main battery in truck, it also had a hard life, big block 454 in a service truck, multiple starts per day, lots of boosting and our winter.


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## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

This is a great thread filled with so much info half of it flies right over my head!! So I have contracted with a solar company and later this year they will be installing enough panels to completely power my home. It will be set up as a reverse meter feed going into the grid. The sales guy said that if the grid goes down so does my electric. Now I have never had the grid go down for more than a few hours as our are has all underground lines and is a newer grid area. I explained my concern of a grid down event lasting a while and he said he has an engineer who will set up a battery bank system using golf cart batteries. Apparently the batteries are dry and in a grid down event I would fill them with acid and then using the inverter i would reroute the power from the panels into the inverter and batteries that would then give me power. So does that sou d about correct? Keep in mind when it comes to electrical engineering my knowledge ends at plugging in things to the outlet. As I imagine it the power from the panels comes into an inverter which is then used to charge the batteries which is then hooked up to another inverter that I then plug in appliances in. The number of panels they are installing is enough to power my whole home right now and we use lots of it so the limitations on things I could power would be the size of battery bank correct??


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

@ mojo, the dry batteries is a GREAT plan, one would want to learn the fill & charge procedure, If you have enough panels that you are most often selling energy to the grid, then battery bank and invertor size would be your limiting factor, keeping in mind that you can also optimize your systems to use energy while the sun shines and not need so much when the system is not producing.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Tirediron said:


> one would want to learn the fill & charge procedure, .


As well as how to care for the batteries after they have been filled.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

LincTex said:


> 1) I don't know - I haven't had to order any parts. I only changed the oil once in 100 hours, and the oil was so clean I could have left it in still. I never added a drop in 100 hours. That's impressive.
> 
> 2) I'm sure it's brushless of some type, unless it has slip rings like a car alternator does. I have had the side panels off to look around inside, but never been into the "guts". Pretty sure there's no commutator.


Thanks for the info. I'll have to do a little more research. I like to keep a few basic spares on hand(carb kit for example).



mojo4 said:


> This is a great thread filled with so much info half of it flies right over my head!! So I have contracted with a solar company and later this year they will be installing enough panels to completely power my home. It will be set up as a reverse meter feed going into the grid. The sales guy said that if the grid goes down so does my electric. Now I have never had the grid go down for more than a few hours as our are has all underground lines and is a newer grid area. I explained my concern of a grid down event lasting a while and he said he has an engineer who will set up a battery bank system using golf cart batteries. Apparently the batteries are dry and in a grid down event I would fill them with acid and then using the inverter i would reroute the power from the panels into the inverter and batteries that would then give me power. So does that sou d about correct? Keep in mind when it comes to electrical engineering my knowledge ends at plugging in things to the outlet. As I imagine it the power from the panels comes into an inverter which is then used to charge the batteries which is then hooked up to another inverter that I then plug in appliances in. The number of panels they are installing is enough to power my whole home right now and we use lots of it so the limitations on things I could power would be the size of battery bank correct??


With a grid tie system and no batteries, those panels will do you zero good...the man wasn't lying to you. Once you add batteries, you'll want to power the inverter to charge the battery bank first and then either manually or automatically(depending on the system) switch it over to feeding the grid.

If it were me(and it will be eventually), I would look at where I could cut energy consumption. The largest electrical demands are typically the water heater, clothes dryer, and A/C. Eliminating or minimizing the use of these kinds of appliances will greatly extend your battery life before recharge.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

zombieresponder is on the mark on this, I checked the rating labels on our dryer simply because I know my wife would like to be able to use it when the grid is down, 24 amps, that figures out to be 6,000 watts, that's a no deal unless we just use the dryer motor to turn the drum for no heat drying, I'll have to check the amps with an amprobe for that, that may not be any worse than the 6 to 7 amps,each, the two refrigerator draw. As long as you realize that solar power is rather limiting in what it can do, and you are willing to sacrifice a number of creature comforts, a solar system can be a good standby system. A whole house solar system will be very expensive. I could add three more of everything I have for a total of 17KW, that would be 24 additional 195 watt panels, 60 6 volt golf cart batteries, three more 60 amp solar charge controllers, three more stackable inverter/chargers and wiring, but that would cost around $21,000 and then we would have to pray that the sun shines when we need it too to keep the batteries charged. Not going to happen unless we win the lottery. Meantime I'll just have to teach my wife that we will have to do with 4,000 watts of standby, which as far as I'm concerned is doable.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

zombieresponder said:


> I would look at where I could cut energy consumption. The largest electrical demands are typically the:
> 
> 1) water heater,
> 2) clothes dryer,
> 3) and A/C.


1 - You can heat water in a tub over a wood fire. You can even build a wood-fired water heater from a gas unit if you want to use the plumbing that's already in the house. 









2 - clothesline. You can at least get them to the point where they are just barely damp, and finish them off in the dryer.

3 - just cool the bedroom only with a small window A/C unit so you can go to sleep. Yes, you'll need a small generator to run it. Once it's cooled off, you should be able to go to sleep.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

LincTex is right. There are lots of ways to still maintain somewhat "normal" levels of comfort while minimizing electrical usage. I like the idea of the wood fired water heater.


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