# To Miracle-Gro, or not to Miracle-Gro...



## PrepN4Good

...that is the question!

I'm having a (so far) friendly argument with an acquaintance as to why I don't use it. I can't really explain it, other than it seems like "cheating." Frankly, I don't even know what's in it! I mean, something _that_ green (the liquid kind) has to have all kindsa chemicals, right? :scratch

Anyone strongly pro or con...?


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## rawhide2971

Oh lord forgive him because he just opened up a big ole fight......I ain't getting in this one...to each his own...


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## Grimm

LOL! Sorry for laughing but this is a big can of worms that can lead to the thread being closed once tempers flare.

But back on topic...

I use the moisture control potting mix. I have tried other brands and other M-G mixes and had my containers go to hell. I tried their organic mix and my seeds never germinated! In fact the container turned into a toadstool garden! But then I never did have much of a green thumb.

I have used the liquid feed you mentioned. But not on my veggies. I used it on flowers for bigger results. And yes, it is considered cheating.


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## Sentry18

I swear if anyone says that Miracle Grow is not the single greatest product devised by man I will go on such a rampage so terrifying that 200 members are excommunicated and 200 other resign in disgust. :teehee:

I really do not know enough about this subject to speak on it intelligently, but I do know this: In 1982 I was given a houseplant (a pothos) by my Mom to help teach me responsibility. She taught me to water it regularly and to feed it with miracle grow once every 3-4 months. That house plant has had no less than 15 near-death experiences and perhaps 2-3 times it actually walked into the light but was rejected at the gates. Once it was declared dead and went to the garbage can but was later rescued and resuscitated. I have produced many many baby plants from cuttings and even cloned it a few times (if I have my lingo correct). Today, some 30 years later, that plant is still alive and well. It is lush, vibrant and strong. Every time my Mom sees it she says "Miracle Grow really must work miracles for that thing to still be alive". It is the only plant I own and it will be the only plant I ever own; because I got it from my Momma. If this house starts on fire and the family is safe I will go back in for that plant. And even if it is burned and covered with smoke, I am certain it will survive because it has has such a long a wondrous exposure to miracle grow.


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## mojo4

I use and love miracle gro on my veggies. And if the kids grow gills?? Swimming just got more fun!


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## PrepN4Good

rawhide2971 said:


> Oh lord forgive him because he just opened up a big ole fight......I ain't getting in this one...to each his own...


Ruh-roh! I had no idea it was such a controversial subject!! Well, to keep the peace, maybe someone can direct me to an old post where all sides have already been hashed out....


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## Genevieve

I've used it in the past. And I've also used manure tea in the past. This year tho I'm trying fish emulsion and seaweed emulsion to see how they do. From what I gather the seaweed adds minerals that the fish doesn't so I want to try both on different plants and see if theres a difference.


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## Hooch

Ive used it n had great results...however I too started questioning what really was in this stuff a few years back. 

Bout the same time I decided to collect seaweed from the beach myself since its a available resource to me n my location..did that a few years n any fish guts n parts I had from canning salmon n tuna I buried into the garden bed as well.

A local place make some sort of fish/seaweed concoction for 10 bucks a gallon and alittle goes a long way. They get fish parts from the local fish processing plants and the seaweed I think he said from oregon up the road. So every year I go to the office n grab a gallon or two, n boy it smells...

Anyways, I've managed to get away from it due to having better healthier options that I can identify n are local. That said I have used MG for years and the plants always responded well to it and I havent grown a extra lung or arm... so..I wouldnt stress over it to put it on houseplants at all...food plants, just my preference I try n choose options I can identify or source local if possible but...


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## cowboyhermit

It is just fertilizer, assuming you are referring to the regular stuff, not the "natural" ones.
We have been growing crops, veggies, herbs, etc for a long time and used our share of fertilizer at times, usually keeping track of the results.

Today we use very little fertilizer. On our garden, herbs and on this property we use none. The produce we get is better than ever, yield is great and plants are hardy so why would we use chemicals?

There can certainly be many problems caused by fertilizers, such as nutrient imbalances, buildup of salts, and generally less resilient and healthy plants and soil.


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## PrepN4Good

Well, that's the thing. Houseplants, no problem; I'm not going to eat them (altho my cats may). Veggies....well, I use compost & organic, rotted manure. I have yet to use one of those 10-10-10 mixtures in a big plastic bag. Same with pests; I use DE or a soap spray.

But, am I just falling for the organic "hype"? Is MG no different, really, than manure tea...? I just wish I had more evidence & facts to back up my "gut feel."


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## cowboyhermit

Compost, Manure, Vegetable matter are worlds apart from fertilizer, they contain everything needed to grow that plant including a myriad of trace minerals, micro-nutrients, beneficial organisms. This is not wishy washy hippy stuff it is well documented science.
Whether or not all of that stuff is "needed" is more subjective however there are MANY studies showing soils around the world being depleted of minerals etc by only providing macro-nutrients.

ETA; http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/eng4466
just a simple example of the breakdown of composted cattle manure from a non-organic biased source. Note that the level of organic matter can be as high as 50%, in fertilizer it is nil and the benefits of organic matter have never been questioned to my knowledge.


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## Wellrounded

PrepN4Good said:


> Well, that's the thing. Houseplants, no problem; I'm not going to eat them (altho my cats may). Veggies....well, I use compost & organic, rotted manure. I have yet to use one of those 10-10-10 mixtures in a big plastic bag. Same with pests; I use DE or a soap spray.
> 
> But, am I just falling for the organic "hype"? Is MG no different, really, than manure tea...? I just wish I had more evidence & facts to back up my "gut feel."


I grow everything I can following organic methods but I'm not a fanatic about it. On really poor soils I'll use anything to get something growing and build organic matter. My reasons for growing organically are many, health of my family and the farm does play a part but most of it has to do with self sufficiency. We make as much as we can on farm and that includes soil amendments. If we are growing on virgin soil we'll use something out of a packet or bag to get the ball rolling, usually to get a green manure crop growing well. Most commercial fertilisers aren't all that bad when used as part of a more complete soil improvement program.



cowboyhermit said:


> Compost, Manure, Vegetable matter are worlds apart from fertilizer, they contain everything needed to grow that plant including a myriad of trace minerals, micro-nutrients, beneficial organisms. This is not wishy washy hippy stuff it is well documented science.
> Whether or not all of that stuff is "needed" is more subjective however there are MANY studies showing soils around the world being depleted of minerals etc by only providing macro-nutrients.
> 
> ETA; http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/eng4466
> just a simple example of the breakdown of composted cattle manure from a non-organic biased source. Note that the level of organic matter can be as high as 50%, in fertilizer it is nil and the benefits of organic matter have never been questioned to my knowledge.


Yep.


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## sgtrunningfool

I started out using manure type fertilizer but the smell made my neighbors complain (I live in a town house on base) and the housing office made me promise not to use it again. Housing Actually called the base health dept to find if using a manure based fertilizer was a health risk to my neighbors but luckily the health dept laughed at them and told them my method was safer than most. Housing made me switch away from the manure based stuff so I went to MG because was available on base. The MG seems to have sped up the process because into two weeks my growth rate has been huge. 

Your soil is a huge factor and if you are adding to your soil every year your fertilizer needs should become less and less.

I think it also depends on how much you are depending on the food from your garden. If your garden is essential to feeding your family using MG type fertilizers can provide a little assurance and may be a risk worth taking and food grown in your garden using MG still has to be better than what is bought at the store


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## cowboyhermit

For in town, if you want to use manure it should be WELL composted, for us that means 5-10years old at least, many commercially packaged products are not great. Well matured compost should smell just like freshly turned earth, that is how you know it's done. There really isn't any manure there, all the particles that you started with have been eaten by micro-organisms and bugs.

Now on the farm we use fresh manure sometimes as well, we don't follow the cows around the pasture either.


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## UncleJoe

Never used it. I like Miracle-chicken waste-gro.


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## rawhide2971

I do love being right


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## cowboyhermit

rawhide2971 said:


> I do love being right


Looks to me like everyone agrees on here, fertilizer is not going to kill you but if you can do without it why not


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## *Andi

I'm in the "don't use it" group ...

I use the "gifts from critters fertilizer" lol...


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## jeff47041

I'm in the don't use it group too. I just don't see the need to put a bunch of chemicals in my ground or my food. I thought that's the beauty of growing my own, so I wouldn't be eating all of the chemicals that producers use. Might as well just buy cans of stuff at the store.
Sorry, just my opinion. Please see below


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## PreparedRifleman73

Seemed to be good for me to start out this year. I started seeds in some sort of Miracle Grow soil. Now that my compost is roaring, I don't imagine I will need it next year.


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## k0xxx

I've used it, and had good results. However, tested side by side, it was no better than using good compost. And btw, good compost (even manure type) smells earthy like good soil, and not like manure.


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## Davarm

I try to go organic but for me thats a goal and not a master.

My soil here in North Texas is not the greatest even after 10 years of work building it up. If I have a choice between loosing plants, having lower than normal yields or using Miracle-Gro - I will and do sometimes use the MG or other commercial fertilizers.


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## musketjim

My Grandpa used it and swore by it.:2thumb: Lived to be 96 smoked and had a great attitude and all his facilities to the end. I use the moisture control and potting soil at BOL and each year spread it out trying to build the poor soil. Can't use fish emulsion there because of bear situation.:dunno: Can't even put suet in bird feeders in spring and fall. Used emulsion and manure here at house. Dog loved it until we wouldn't let him back in the house. Working on garbage can compost pile this year with chicken coop bedding and ashes from wood stove food scraps etc. We'll see how that goes. Love the powder Miracl-Gro also.


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## Woody

I have used it in the past with very good results. Haven’t had to use it for many years but would recommend it to someone just starting out or without access to good compost.

Speaking of starting out, I tried the MG soil experiment long ago. Tried using a basic store brand potting soil and MG potting soil to start plants with. The MG really did produce the results you see on TV. The plants were much larger given the only difference between them was the soil.


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## 8thDayStranger

I have kind of poor soil here that I'm slowly getting built up. In the mean time I supplement with miracle gro. I use the shake and feed stuff about a month into the season and once a month or so I hit it with the spray and feed. Just learned about fish emulsion so I'm going to try using that this year instead of the spray and feed. I have a tomato plant turning purple from nutrient deficiency so it'll be my little experiment with fish emulsion.


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## twiggie

I've used it before and I'm not really sure if it did anything or not, this year I'm using all organic fertilizers and I'm seeing much better results. Everything gets a quick bath in fish emulsion once a month, and I used bone meal in the planting holes before I put veggies in, I'm seeing amazing results with this method. I have a live and let live opinion when it comes to gardening, if you get good results using chemical fertilizer go for it but from my experience organic is the way to go for my plants.


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## Davarm

That purple color is caused by a phosphorus deficiency, If you want an "Organic" solution for that you can pour a cup or so of "Rock Phosphate" around the base of the plant and water it in.

For a faster result you can dissolve a few spoonfuls of the rock phosphate in a gallon of water and pour it over the plant. It doesn't work as fast as MG but it works and wont require continued feedings. I have never had it "burn" any of my plants so it is safer than MG, IMO.

Bone meal will also work, both also contain calcium and will prevent "Blossom End Rot" if you have had problems with that.



8thDayStranger said:


> I have kind of poor soil here that I'm slowly getting built up. In the mean time I supplement with miracle gro. I use the shake and feed stuff about a month into the season and once a month or so I hit it with the spray and feed. Just learned about fish emulsion so I'm going to try using that this year instead of the spray and feed. I have a tomato plant turning purple from nutrient deficiency so it'll be my little experiment with fish emulsion.


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## 8thDayStranger

Davarm said:


> That purple color is caused by a phosphorus deficiency, If you want an "Organic" solution for that you can pour a cup or so of "Rock Phosphate" around the base of the plant and water it in.
> 
> For a faster result you can dissolve a few spoonfuls of the rock phosphate in a gallon of water and pour it over the plant. It doesn't work as fast as MG but it works and wont require continued feedings. I have never had it "burn" any of my plants so it is safer than MG, IMO.
> 
> Bone meal will also work, both also contain calcium and will prevent "Blossom End Rot" if you have had problems with that.


Awesome! Thanks! How much bone meal? And does the bone meal have the phosphorus or is it just for calcium? I am having blossom end rot on my squash so I was researching how to add calcium. I actually have a HUGE pond of hydrated lime here at work. Would that help or am I too likely to burn the plant?

I couldn't care less if its organic or not. Any solution is great to me


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## 8thDayStranger

Nevermind. Found what I needed. Thanks again for the tip!!


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## Davarm

8thDayStranger said:


> Nevermind. Found what I needed. Thanks again for the tip!!


I'll throw in a comment anyway, a hard learned lesson!

IMO, avoid the lime. It does add calcium(but no phosphorus) but even a little too much will render you soil pretty much useless(even to most weeds) until it leaches out. Having too much available calcium will give you the same effects as not having enough, it will block the uptake of nutrients by the plants. The rock phosphate must be "processed" by the plants so its calcium is not "available" to the plants all at once.

The bone meal is a much better option and again IMO, the rock phosphate is even better still(much cheaper). Both contain calcium and phosphorus and are much safer to your soil and plants.


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## dirtgrrl

I use chemical fertilizers sparingly in my garden, usually only until I can build up the soil with long-lasting nutrients and organic matter. The biggest difference between something like Miracle-Gro and compost tea is that the tea contains a bajillion micro-organisms that help turn dirt into soil. Chemical fertilizers also discourage a plant from creating the fungal symbioses necessary for enhanced drought-tolerance and nutrient scavenging. They also keep you buying from the store and dependent on a non-sustainable resource. Use chemical fertilizers only as a crutch until you learn how to make and sustain real soil fertility and tilth. Real, fertile, healthy soil is alive; using chemical fertilizers is like a taking a cheap vitamin pill vs. eating real food.


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## stanb999

IMHO it's best to use all the tools available to make good production. You get the best bang for your buck. 

I use compost and manure lots of it. 
I use chemical fertilizer 
I use pesticides 

I produce a ton of veggies and tend a large garden. 


The thing is you need to balance your approaches to the needs of the garden, not just chemical or organic. Both have a place. For instance if you put a ton of bedding/manure the stuff from a barn stall(not poop only) your garden will likely benefit from a side dressing of nitrogen at or just after planting, that manure needs to break down some before it has nitrogen available for the plants. So add the chemical at the right time and your plants will love it.


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## PrepN4Good

twiggie said:


> ... I used bone meal in the planting holes before I put veggies in, I'm seeing amazing results with this method.


I've used oyster shells in the holes (particularly with maters); I guess it has a similar effect...


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## Roslyn

I see the difference between compost tea and Miracle Gro as being the difference between a cup of coffee and smoking crack. The coffee lifts you up, helps get you going for the day. The crack gets you there faster and harder, but when you crash, you crash hard. From that point on, only that hard and fast will do, and you are hooked.

I learned from several Master Gardeners some years back that prolonged use of Miracle Gro will build up salts in your soil and even though it works, it will stop over time.

I also stopped buying bedding plants from a very old, and very established local greenhouse. They have 55 gallon drums of the blue stuff all through the greenhouse with drip hoses to the plants. Two years in a row I purchased bedding flowers to supplement my own seed starts. My seed starts lasted all through the summer, yes they were slower to bloom, but they stayed in bloom all year and grew lush and full with nothing but a scattered scoop of my own mixed fertilizer and compost tea feedings every other week or so.

The flowers that I bought from the greenhouse never grew and never flowered again. Things like allyssum and petunias. Flowers that usually fill in an area with blooms for the whole season. Nothing. I gave them my compost tea etc, but they just sat there. After the second year I deduced that they were detoxing from the blue stuff. I have grown the same type of flowers from other greenhouses and they do just great!

So, I will stick to green manure in the garden, with supplements from the chicken poo and straw. I spread my mixed fertilizer when I plant and I have started using it in my flower beds as well. And then I follow up through the season with homemade compost tea that I add comfrey leaves to. It has worked for me.

I use the fertilizer recipe from Steve Solomon.


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## goshengirl

Roslyn, would that be this recipe? And what is the benefit of comfrey leaves in your compost tea? Thanks for the great post.


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## dawnwinds58

PrepN4Good said:


> I've used oyster shells in the holes (particularly with maters); I guess it has a similar effect...


On my tomatoes and peppers I use a "pass it down" plan. All the shells of my chickens eggs get saved as does all coffee grounds. The blend is mixed then buried in a circle around the base of the plants. It adds calcium to prevent blossom end rot and the acidity to keep them thriving.


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## Roslyn

goshengirl said:


> Roslyn, would that be this recipe? And what is the benefit of comfrey leaves in your compost tea? Thanks for the great post.


Yes, that is the recipe I use. I use soybean meal because it is what is available locally. Ag. Lime, Rock Phosphate, and I buy kelp meal in a large bag (very pricey). I've used it for some years now. But I have to make sure when I mix it into the garden the chickens can't get anywhere near the soil. They love to scratch down and get the soybean meal, destroying everything in their path.

I mix it in buckets and then park it in my shed until I need it. I have had it on hand for two years without any issues.

Comfrey is high in potassium. It breaks down easily and doesn't suck the nitrogen out of the soil when used as a mulch. It is also a deep rooted plant, so it harvests nutrients from deep in the soil, much like trees.

I have had success with just making a comfrey fertilizer by rotting leaves in water like making a compost tea, only just with comfrey. Since I usually have some compost around, I just mix the two.

Comfrey is an "old-timey" addition to the compost pile to get it up and activating, as it breaks down quickly.

It's a great plant and an important part of my garden!

:flower:


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## cowboyhermit

With regards to the oyster shells/bone meal 
Oyster shells are a great source of calcium they are almost entirely calcium carbonate.
Bone meal contains large amounts of phosphorous, that is mainly what it has been used for, but it also contains calcium in substantial quantities, it usually contains (in varying quantities) other compounds including magnesium, nitrogen, iron, and other micro-nutrients.


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## k0xxx

I guess for me it came down to learning to do the best with what I can sustain. I didn't want to get "hooked" on using any fertilizer that I couldn't produce in a real SHTF situation, hence learning to compost.


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## vja4Him

I have used Miracle Grow for many years. I do not use it like I really should though. It's too much work for me to keep up with fertilizing so many plants (thousands), so I just apply it about a half dozen times or so to my best plants, over a period of several months.

Honestly, I really haven't noticed a huge difference. But our soil is very poor.

I might get more serious and use Miracle Grow every seven days when I start planting my Fall and Winter garden, which will be around the middle of August ....


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## vja4Him

k0xxx said:


> I guess for me it came down to learning to do the best with what I can sustain. I didn't want to get "hooked" on using any fertilizer that I couldn't produce in a real SHTF situation, hence learning to compost.


I am using whatever compost that I can produce. I allow everything to grow until it dies!!! That way a lot of my garden plants go to seed and reseed every year. I have around 30 different kinds of plants now that come up as Volunteers every year!!!

Also have about 10-15 other species of plants that don't completely die, and just keep coming back from the roots every year.

I use all of the dead plants, including the Weeds, for compost, plus whatever Kitchen Scraps we have.


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## Jimmy24

Generaly between my chickens' manure, my neighbors horse manure, a good mix of cottonseed meal, bone meal, buried fish waste and my compost pile, I just don't bother with MG. 

Would I use it? I a heartbeat. I will use whatever I need to use to grow food I need to survive on. I keep a 5 lb box of it as a emc backup. 

The nitrates and salts that are used to make MG are not all the good for your soil with extended use. But if you need to get a garden going in a remote location, say if you had to bug out, may make a big difference if you can get some food up and growing. 

Just saying.

Jimmy


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## Roslyn

Jimmy24 said:


> Generaly between my chickens' manure, my neighbors horse manure, a good mix of cottonseed meal, bone meal, buried fish waste and my compost pile, I just don't bother with MG.
> 
> Would I use it? I a heartbeat. I will use whatever I need to use to grow food I need to survive on. I keep a 5 lb box of it as a emc backup.
> 
> The nitrates and salts that are used to make MG are not all the good for your soil with extended use. But if you need to get a garden going in a remote location, say if you had to bug out, may make a big difference if you can get some food up and growing.
> 
> Just saying.
> 
> Jimmy


In a pinch you can quickly make leaf mold tea. Scrape up the top two inches of forest soil and fallen leaves and fill half a bucket. Cover with water. About four times a day pour the bucket into another bucket, back and forth a few times to aerate. After about 5 or 6 days pour the liquid off the "muck" and dilute 1to3 or 1 to4 and pour the muck into a compost pile. Fertilize your plants once a week. Then start another batch.

Before I had comfrey or a compost pile, back when I was first getting started this is what I did to fertilize my plants. I had good harvests in my first, second and third years with my garden. By the fourth year I had a good system in place and no longer hunted leaf mold in the woods.


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## stanb999

Roslyn said:


> In a pinch you can quickly make leaf mold tea. Scrape up the top two inches of forest soil and fallen leaves and fill half a bucket. Cover with water. About four times a day pour the bucket into another bucket, back and forth a few times to aerate. After about 5 or 6 days pour the liquid off the "muck" and dilute 1to3 or 1 to4 and pour the muck into a compost pile. Fertilize your plants once a week. Then start another batch.
> 
> Before I had comfrey or a compost pile, back when I was first getting started this is what I did to fertilize my plants. I had good harvests in my first, second and third years with my garden. By the fourth year I had a good system in place and no longer hunted leaf mold in the woods.


Kinda depends where you are in the world. What is needed in some locals isn't needed in others. For instance here adding manure tea or other tannin filled tea is about the last thing one would do here, the soil is already very acidic. Here you add lime/calcium and nitrogen. The soil has the rest. Plenty of P and K with micro nutrients in abundance due to glacial tillage and young average top soil age. If the agway is gone due to SHTF. A ton of fresh manure and hay/grass will buffer the high acid levels. It won't fix it and it will need to be done every year.

Don't use hard wood leaves for compost.
Don't use forest floor soil if you can help it. If you must. Burn the forest and spread the ash. The ash will sweeten the soil. This is what was done 200 years ago to make farms.

Take the time to learn about your soil. Don't follow generalizations

Start here 
http://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/HomePage.htm


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## cowboyhermit

If acidic soil is a concern then that makes a much better case for avoiding chemical fertilizer, virtually every type of fertilizer is acidifying (urea based, ammonium nitrate/sulphate/phosphate, potassium phosphate) they can be used on alkali soils to bring down the ph enough to grow typical plants.
Bone meal will help neutralize acidic soil long term, as will compost and manure.


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## stanb999

cowboyhermit said:


> If acidic soil is a concern then that makes a much better case for avoiding chemical fertilizer, virtually every type of fertilizer is acidifying (urea based, ammonium nitrate/sulphate/phosphate, potassium phosphate) they can be used on alkali soils to bring down the ph enough to grow typical plants.
> Bone meal will help neutralize acidic soil long term, as will compost and manure.


Neutralizing the acid soil here is like drying up water. You are fighting it's very nature.
Just add lime to the point that there is enough Ca. available to the plants. It's cheap. You will not however change the nature of the soil. Stone breaks down to sand, sand breaks down to silt, silt breaks down to clay. The rock - silt phase is acidic. The soil will be acidic for 1 or 2 million years. Then it will be top shelf neutral soil for 2 million years. Then in 5-6 million years or so it will be heavy dense clay devoid of nutrient but high in Ca and have a high PH.

Acid sandy soil may be a bit of a pain. But it's high available nutrients is a boon for the plants if you can learn to deal with the calcium availability issues. You don't need deep soil, all the nutrient that is needed is in the top 3 inches. It drains well. For instance each year you get a huge addition of micro nutrient... From the weathered rock and sand.


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## cowboyhermit

There is no need for soil to follow the predetermined trajectory you put forward, there are many ways that soil can be altered long term. Plants, animals, amendments, fungi, micro-organisms can all have long term effects on the soil. Everyone knows how quickly soil becomes depleted in the amazon basin and yet look at Terra Preta, nothing could be further from the predicted "natural" soil outcome. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta


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## stanb999

cowboyhermit said:


> There is no need for soil to follow the predetermined trajectory you put forward, there are many ways that soil can be altered long term. Plants, animals, amendments, fungi, micro-organisms can all have long term effects on the soil. Everyone knows how quickly soil becomes depleted in the amazon basin and yet look at Terra Preta, nothing could be further from the predicted "natural" soil outcome.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta


Your trying to equate a potential thousand of years of human work with millions of years of natural progression? What does that have to do with my post?

Minerals break down and leach out of soil over time. The older the soil the less minerals it has, every time, always. If you want a successful garden know what your soil lacks and what it has in abundance. Give it what it needs. Doing what folks do in the Pacific north west in the south east is at best standing still. You could be running backwards following them in the north east. What they do is correct for their area. Likely not yours unless your neighbors.

P.S. By definition. Soil can't be processed or altered by man. It must be as time and or god laid it down. If it's altered it isn't soil it's dirt.


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## cowboyhermit

stanb999, you made the assertion that your soil would follow a predetermined path, I was stating that this need not be the case.
This statement 
"The older the soil the less minerals it has, every time, always"
is ridiculous.

I am sorry, maybe you could give an example of a definition of soil that specifies that it not be altered. I think you are misunderstanding. Dirt is sometimes used to specify soil that has been altered. Soil, even under a geological definition does not exclude human interaction, this would be impossible unless only looking at periods before the existence of humans. The interaction between humans and soil formation is still being studied but many cases dating back millenia have been documented.


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## stanb999

cowboyhermit said:


> stanb999, you made the assertion that your soil would follow a predetermined path, I was stating that this need not be the case.
> This statement
> "The older the soil the less minerals it has, every time, always"
> is ridiculous.
> 
> I am sorry, maybe you could give an example of a definition of soil that specifies that it not be altered. I think you are misunderstanding. Dirt is sometimes used to specify soil that has been altered. Soil, even under a geological definition does not exclude human interaction, this would be impossible unless only looking at periods before the existence of humans. The interaction between humans and soil formation is still being studied but many cases dating back millenia have been documented.


Did you read my first post? 1000 years wasn't even part of the conversation. :teehee: Soil aging starts at a million years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil


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## cowboyhermit

stanb999, this doesn't seem to be adding to the forum so I will drop it.

It seems you are under the assumption that "soil aging" is a process that does not happen from day to day but then on a longer time frame it somehow does. If you think about this it should be apparent that what you are stating is not possible, the difference may not be measurable on a smaller time frame but things cannot happen in the long term without also happening incrementally.
The reality is that none of these systems is static or predetermined, soil is formed everyday, minerals are added and taken away from soils, weathering occurs.


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## rawhide2971

Hey PrepN4Good........Told You So...lol


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## Merlin

*The Point Missed*



PrepN4Good said:


> ...that is the question!
> 
> I'm having a (so far) friendly argument with an acquaintance as to why I don't use it. I can't really explain it, other than it seems like "cheating." Frankly, I don't even know what's in it! I mean, something _that_ green (the liquid kind) has to have all kindsa chemicals, right? :scratch
> 
> Anyone strongly pro or con...?


Using MG or other commercial products yes its cheating but you have to do what you have to do to get the plants to grow ..The best results and benefit are to amend the soil thus making it better so you do not need MG.... But if you say you are prepared a prepper Well when the SHTF.. if it is only a personal , Local , area wide , where are you going to get your MG ???? O you say I stock piled it well you could have put that money time and space to a much better use ... If you amend the soil ,dirt,clay whatever you want to call it to suit the growing needs in your area and too what you want to grow, and have perfected a system that is right and works for you Using Teas Manure straw that you will have access to after the SHTF you will be time money and a lot of effort ahead ...Also the soil you have will be better for it and will not need as much work .,,and your plants wont need the unnatural drug also look at the environmental fact it will be more environmentally friendly No I am not a tree huger but I want my garden to produce the best it can with as little work and help from me as possible Now and after the SHTF so when you come calling needing something and you have MG to trade good luck with that... So in closing go ahead use it and anything you can get your hands on while you fix your soil so your plants can get of the stuff.... Now all of this is in my not so Humble Opinion


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## *Andi

rawhide2971 said:


> Hey PrepN4Good........Told You So...lol


That you did ... 

(alright folks) Time to take a deep breath and step back for a minute...


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## dirtgrrl

You will get my compost when you pry it from my cold dead hands.

If compost is outlawed, only outlaws will have compost.


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## jbkennard

"Plants can't tell the difference between nitrogen from a leaf (manure/compost) and nitrogen from a fertilizer bag" - J. I. Rodale

Everything in this world is a chemical. So, when someone says "chemicals are bad", or something similar, they are simply showing ignorance of the truth, and are therefore easily misled with all of the follow-on errors that are a natural result of the first "big lie".

Plants need 13 elements from the soil including nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium (Major nutrients), calcium, sulfur, magnesium (secondary nutrients), and zinc, boron, manganese, iron, copper, chlorine, and molybdenum (trace elements or micro-nutrients). From these, plus carbon, oxygen and hydrogen (carb-o-hydrates!) which they get from the air - using the wonderful process called photosynthesis - they create edible plants that include all of these chemicals so essential for human life, in organic form that we are able to process and incorporate into our own bodies. 

Anything more than those 16 elements and you risk hurting the plants or the animals that eat them. Anything less and they are not healthy, do not grow properly, and do not feed us what we require.

Plants obtain their nutrients as water-soluble minerals through their roots. If organic materials are the source of plant nutrition the material must decompose and revert back to the original mineral state before the next generation of plants can get and use it. This requires time and soil organisms to accomplish.

Soils originally contained an ample supply of all of the above nutrients, but over the millennia rain and snow, weathering and erosion, and crop removal have all depleted the soil, so that today most soils are deficient in their supply of readily available water-soluble minerals.

Fortunately, we have learned to go to the inexhaustible supply of these natural mineral nutrients that God has provided in rock deposits all over the world. We mine them, grind them up, and often we concentrate them, removing heavy metals and other impurities, making them more reliable and much less expensive to ship. And those who understand the laws of plant growth and plant nutrition combine these minerals according to the needs of plants, and then apply the minerals to the soil to achieve the amazing growth and healthy plants that keep us healthy. And because natural water-soluble minerals are applied to the soil there is no waiting, and no guessing. And there is no risk of disease or death from things like e-coli and salmonella.

If you care to see for yourself the results when a 30-year Master Gardener discovered these simple truths I invite you to check out LDSPrepper on YouTube. 

Jim Kennard, President - Food For Everyone Foundation


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## cowboyhermit

I have no problem with fertilizer, in fact I spread some on many acres this year (not on my homestead). So obviously I respect everyone's opinion I just wish they didn't put out their opinion as fact.

Plants can indeed "tell the difference" between nitrogen from a bag and nitrogen compost/manure, this has been well known in the scientific community for ages. Everything is made of chemicals, yes, but the chemicals in a fertilizer bag are very different than ones in compost. Just because something has nitrogen in it does not make it identical. The nitrogen in compost is not ammonium nitrate.

Furthermore, it is not so much the individual plants that we are concerned with, as much as the soil itself. The positive effect of compost or manure on soil micro-organisms and beneficial fungus has also been scientifically proven. Also well documented is the negative effects that chemical fertilizers can have on soils, particularly soil life.

So by all means use chemical fertilizers, advocate their use if you desire, but PLEASE don't say that they are equivalent to compost or manure because that is false.


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## *Andi

jbkennard said:


> "Plants can't tell the difference between nitrogen from a leaf (manure/compost) and nitrogen from a fertilizer bag" - J. I. Rodale
> 
> Everything in this world is a chemical. So, when someone says "chemicals are bad", or something similar, they are simply showing ignorance of the truth, and are therefore easily misled with all of the follow-on errors that are a natural result of the first "big lie".
> 
> Plants need 13 elements from the soil including nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium (Major nutrients), calcium, sulfur, magnesium (secondary nutrients), and zinc, boron, manganese, iron, copper, chlorine, and molybdenum (trace elements or micro-nutrients). From these, plus carbon, oxygen and hydrogen (carb-o-hydrates!) which they get from the air - using the wonderful process called photosynthesis - they create edible plants that include all of these chemicals so essential for human life, in organic form that we are able to process and incorporate into our own bodies.
> 
> Anything more than those 16 elements and you risk hurting the plants or the animals that eat them. Anything less and they are not healthy, do not grow properly, and do not feed us what we require.
> 
> Plants obtain their nutrients as water-soluble minerals through their roots. If organic materials are the source of plant nutrition the material must decompose and revert back to the original mineral state before the next generation of plants can get and use it. This requires time and soil organisms to accomplish.
> 
> Soils originally contained an ample supply of all of the above nutrients, but over the millennia rain and snow, weathering and erosion, and crop removal have all depleted the soil, so that today most soils are deficient in their supply of readily available water-soluble minerals.
> 
> Fortunately, we have learned to go to the inexhaustible supply of these natural mineral nutrients that God has provided in rock deposits all over the world. We mine them, grind them up, and often we concentrate them, removing heavy metals and other impurities, making them more reliable and much less expensive to ship. And those who understand the laws of plant growth and plant nutrition combine these minerals according to the needs of plants, and then apply the minerals to the soil to achieve the amazing growth and healthy plants that keep us healthy. And because natural water-soluble minerals are applied to the soil there is no waiting, and no guessing. And there is no risk of disease or death from things like e-coli and salmonella.
> 
> If you care to see for yourself the results when a 30-year Master Gardener discovered these simple truths I invite you to check out LDSPrepper on YouTube.
> 
> Jim Kennard, President - Food For Everyone Foundation


For me ... it is more about natural over synthetic. (but that is just the way I am ...)

But to each their own.


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## stanb999

*Andi said:


> For me ... it is more about natural over synthetic. (but that is just the way I am ...)
> 
> But to each their own.


pot stirrer.. lol


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## dirtgrrl

Cowboyhermit beat me to it. I wouldn't have been nearly as nice. 

jbkennards's post was full of half-truths and sounds like he is subtly trying to sell the next miracle snake-oil wonder garden product using e coli and salmonella as bogeymen. There is no e coli or salmonella in compost, only in raw manure. He used a JI Rodale quote taken out of context to "support" his position. 

Sorry, I'll continue to grow my real food in real soil.


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