# Paper money



## Mase92 (Feb 4, 2013)

Ok, I admit, i'm skeptical that paper will be worth anything if SHTF ever does take place on a grand scale, at least in the long term. I do however see a short term or quickly after the grid going down people will still want paper.

I seen a thread on another board and would like to get some opinions on the below post. This is not made by me it was found here 

The OP makes a good point but as I said, I don't think long term this is viable it is though, a different thought process and having cash on hand (extra) is never a bad thing.

What are your thoughts on this. 
P.S. I did some google searches to see if there was any solid conversations or research done on this. I've only found opinions on forums and well, there is no place I trust more than those around here.



> In 90% of the "collapse" scenarios CASH dollars will be the medium of exchange. If, say, Washington DC/power grid/financial system//rule of law is wiped out, there will be no US Treasury and no one printing money. Quite the opposite of the PM aficionado's hyperinflation scenarios.
> 
> How much cash do you have in your wallet? $50? How many months of food and rent and protection can you pay with that? Don't talk to me about silver dimes, what people are going to want is paper dollars. Why? Because sellers will be hoping for a comeback of the economy and a return of the dollar. But even if the US Treasury does not come back, there is no reason why Cash dollars cannot continue to be the medium of exchange. They do the job now, why not after the collapse? Yes, they will wear out. When they do, coins will take over.
> 
> ...


----------



## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Mase92 said:


> Ok, I admit, i'm skeptical that paper will be worth anything if SHTF ever does take place on a grand scale, at least in the long term. I do however see a short term or quickly after the grid going down people will still want paper.
> 
> I seen a thread on another board and would like to get some opinions on the below post. This is not made by me it was found here
> 
> ...


Maze92, I find this a very thought provoking post. I can see how paper currency would / could increase in value or maintain it's current acceptance. How many techies, welfare recipients, working people could distinguish between real gold / silver and simple plated items. How many people could distinguish a cubic zirconium from a diamond or other precious stones? Everybody would know the value of paper currency.

I have never considered this topic from this angle, very interesting points made. 1) Known value. 2) Not replaceable - scarcity increases value. 3) Easily transported 4) Easily stored for emergencies.

What / who could set the value of Precious Metals vs. paper currency values? I say that one ounce of gold is worth my paper one dollar and who disputes this valuation? When the cards are useless, then i think cash reigns.

I cannot find a reason to discredit the premise of paper currency maintaining or increasing in value. I also agree that in the very long term, paper currency will lose it's value and the barter system will replace it. I am doubtful that Precious Metals will become the defacto currency. Excellent post Maze92.


----------



## bkt (Oct 10, 2008)

Obviously, if the collapse is due to monetary failure, as in Venezuela today, cash won't be worth anything. Any other catalyst probably has cash working for a while IF there are any places actually open for business. A power-grid failure means nothing is working. No fuel pumps, no cash registers, nothing.

Bank holidays and imposed limits to getting cash, as happened in Greece and Cyprus, would be a good reason to keep cash on hand.

I do keep a fair bit of cash in the safe. You never know.

The point of prepping is to be as self-sufficient as possible in a SHTF situation so you don't need to spend cash or PM. You shouldn't be scrambling at the onset of a sh!tstorm to get a few key items.


----------



## SewingMachine (Mar 26, 2017)

I can only speak for myself.

In any kind of crash, I would only take cash for goods and services as a last resort, if I thought I could quickly turn it around for something else.

I would want "stuff". Can of beans, meat, propane, something, but not gold or cash.

I suppose it would also depend on what others were doing. If everyone wanted something then that would become the medium of exchange I would want to use, to have access to the most goods and services in return. If everyone wanted gold, then that is what I would have to work with.

I remember my grandmothers stories about the depression, although she lived through it in another country, and moved here shortly after. She talked about her parents bartering, they worked at a vineyard in exchange for housing. I don't ever remember her stressing gold or cash, in any currency.

Later in life she became a hoarder of the highest order, and I suspect it was her reaction to what she had learned, stuff was what mattered.


----------



## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

SewingMachine said:


> I suppose it would also depend on what others were doing. If everyone wanted something then that would become the medium of exchange I would want to use, to have access to the most goods and services in return. If everyone wanted gold, then that is what I would have to work with.


This.

People are not always easy to figure out but I think it's pretty clear they don't like or want change. I could easily see people stuck in circumstantial denial and not want to let go out the way things used to work (as in paper money having a sort of intrinsic value). Of course people don't use cash like they used to and are now becoming dependent on swiping cards instead.

I prefer to cover all my basis and have several mediums of payment available.


----------



## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Mase92.......Looks like maybe a valid point, though I never looked at it quite that way. I can picture people collecting bushel baskets full and "waiting on the comeback,"when cash might actually be a good thing to have. People do resist "change." Something to think about.....be rather ironic to depend on gold/silver, the find out cash is the best thing going!!


----------



## readytogo (Apr 6, 2013)

I see that money is an issue for many here and yes me too ,but if you think about it a monetary collapse means that money has no value ,,during the great depression many with money couldn't buy anything and many with money loss everything too ,our money was taken from us the minute we applied for our exit visa from Cuba, we had $12,000.00 dollars in the bank ,my father loss his job too, kick out , it was our skills that kept us going ,making hams ,curing and selling fish ,bartering and black marketeering goods ,our potted food plants gave us food and bartering power ,we had no power in those hills but we ate like kings and we survived ,those in the city without skills suffer the most ,so they pay with whatever they could some had money others had specific government jobs ,they barter with medicines ,auto parts ,fuel ,etc. .No one die. We help each other and counted on each other ,the secret police was always watching.


----------



## BillS (May 30, 2011)

Paper money will have value after a collapse assuming that it had value before the collapse. The important thing though is that almost no one will have food. There isn't going to be much barter when everyone is hungry. I won't trust anyone that isn't currently living with me. Even adult siblings, cousins, co-workers, friends, and neighbors might think that you owe them something and become dangerous when you don't take them in.


----------



## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

I can't believe that any prepper thinks that cash will be good after a collapse.

Yes, it should work for a period of time after the collapse, maybe 2 weeks or 2 months, In time, with no government, people will begin to distrust the dollar. Every prepper needs to be prepared for a failing dollar. Be ready to barter and in time the money of choice will be Silver with Gold.

Only the people that are not prepared, are rationalizing that the dollar will continue to be good.

If the government survives or a new government is installed then the dollar will have to be replaced. What ever currency they come up with, a jump start will have to happen to start circulation. A jump start could be just, so many dollars traded for so many Trumps. It could be 1000 dollars for every Trump dollar.

Gold and Silver in a collapse would have to increase (because there is so little in circulation) many fold in purchasing power while the dollar went away, so it wouldn't surprise me that one ounce of Gold could be traded for 1000 or more Trump dollars.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that the dollar will survive a collapse. Remember that the current form of the dollar has only been in circulation since 1964, before that every dollar had Gold backing it and the gold backed dollar only goes back to 1900.


----------



## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Tweto.....I don't think anyone is suggesting that we should all jump on dollars as the way to go (certainly hope not, anyway). But it might not hurt to hedge our bets a little.....keep your gold/silver, add to those, but also maybe sock away a few "dollars" just in case......wouldn't be the first time a "consensus" has missed the boat. :threadbump:


----------



## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

The major cyber attack that hit the world on Friday should be a wake up call to everyone on the planet to keep extra cash on hand all the time. A cyber attack on banks could easily happen Any day and would stop all transactions other than cash. The banks would all have to close because they can not operate without internet access.
I agree with Tweto, cash would have value for a short time only. The OP makes a good point though that I had never thought of. Paper money has a very short life span and if not replaced on a regular basis it would all wear out fairly quickly.


----------



## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

In a sudden Grid down, paper currency will have tremendous temporary value. Example: Grocery Store - no power - refrigerated produce is going to be a total loss. So do you except cash or hope somebody with gold /silver walks in to make a purchase? No way to process credit /debit cards. It would be difficult but sales can be added up by hand or with a battery powered calculator. Stores will accept what every currency they can get, prior to the looters breaking in and stealing the items.

In a financial collapse, only barter items are going to hold or increase their value. Very few places / people are going to be able to accept gold/silver. How would the average person test purity of the metal or verify the actual value?

In a long term crisis, only goods and services will hold any value. PM. Cash, or precious stones will have little to no value. What good is gold/silver or diamonds. I can't eat them and neither can anybody else. 

Value of any currency (gold/ silver/diamonds, etc.) only becomes viable after the return of civilization. Towns / cities need currency to facilitate trade. Communities will rely on barter. Currency will be established when governments are formed. JMHO


----------



## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

hiwall said:


> The major cyber attack that hit the world on Friday should be a wake up call to everyone on the planet to keep extra cash on hand all the time. A cyber attack on banks could easily happen Any day and would stop all transactions other than cash. The banks would all have to close because they can not operate without internet access.
> I agree with Tweto, cash would have value for a short time only. The OP makes a good point though that I had never thought of. Paper money has a very short life span and if not replaced on a regular basis it would all wear out fairly quickly.


The "hackers" are getting better, and bolder,and that's not good. It's obvious "defenses" are not one step ahead of them, but more like two steps behind!!

Knock out the banks in six or seven major U.S. banking cities, and keep 'em down for even a week or two, and we've seen a bad day. It's crap like this that could just suddenly hit us outta the clear blue sky that could cause a shtf scenario to come to pass *with no visible warning at all,* that scares the crap outta me. MOST other things we are aware of, and HOPEFULLY preparations are being made to strengthen those "systems." But the hackers are starting to zero in on hospitals and banks, and *that is not good!!* You would think banks would have been the *first* to really devote a lot of R & D to "anti-hacking software," but apparently they haven't been as "on-top-of-it" as we may have thought. I don't know that much about IT, but it seems to me there are only two ways "in" for hackers....either the ethernet connection, or the wireless connection, and my simple-minded brain tells me there should be SOME kind of software in place that would "block" an attack from even getting INTO the servers in the first place. Even a DNS attack could be shut down the minute software detects abnormally high traffic INTO the servers. DNS attacks are the most common, and THEY depend on *extreme volumes of traffic* to take down the server(s).....stop that traffic, you've stopped the attack cold. In all these years, the banks haven't come up with some software that automatically shuts down the system when an abnormal traffic pattern is detected??? :gtfo:


----------



## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

Pessimistic2 said:


> The "hackers" are getting better, and bolder,and that's not good. It's obvious "defenses" are not one step ahead of them, but more like two steps behind!!
> 
> Knock out the banks in six or seven major U.S. banking cities, and keep 'em down for even a week or two, and we've seen a bad day. It's crap like this that could just suddenly hit us outta the clear blue sky that could cause a shtf scenario to come to pass *with no visible warning at all,* that scares the crap outta me. MOST other things we are aware of, and HOPEFULLY preparations are being made to strengthen those "systems." But the hackers are starting to zero in on hospitals and banks, and *that is not good!!* You would think banks would have been the *first* to really devote a lot of R & D to "anti-hacking software," but apparently they haven't been as "on-top-of-it" as we may have thought. I don't know that much about IT, but it seems to me there are only two ways "in" for hackers....either the ethernet connection, or the wireless connection, and my simple-minded brain tells me there should be SOME kind of software in place that would "block" an attack from even getting INTO the servers in the first place. Even a DNS attack could be shut down the minute software detects abnormally high traffic INTO the servers. DNS attacks are the most common, and THEY depend on *extreme volumes of traffic* to take down the server(s).....stop that traffic, you've stopped the attack cold. In all these years, the banks haven't come up with some software that automatically shuts down the system when an abnormal traffic pattern is detected??? :gtfo:


Pess, I think this attack was based on a hidden sub-routine (program) inside something the banks & hospitals downloaded (email worm or something of that nature). The problem is instant access. There is not enough time to test and protect data, without delaying access. If everything that came into a bank on Monday, was held in a isolated server until it was tested, then these things could be stopped but none of these institutions are willing to delay access for a day or two, the time needed to test, backup and protect data.

instant access is the deal breaker. To maintain the speed of accessing the data, you need to provide duplicate and instant data backup, very expensive.
Cheaper for the banks and hospitals to pay the ransom.

Sooner or later, a national economic attack is going to be attempted. If we are prepared, great, if not better have a lot of cash on hand and plan on heading for the hills (as best you can). JMHO


----------



## SewingMachine (Mar 26, 2017)

Pessimistic2 said:


> The "hackers" are getting better, and bolder,and that's not good. It's obvious "defenses" are not one step ahead of them, but more like two steps behind!!
> 
> Knock out the banks in six or seven major U.S. banking cities, and keep 'em down for even a week or two, and we've seen a bad day. It's crap like this that could just suddenly hit us outta the clear blue sky that could cause a shtf scenario to come to pass *with no visible warning at all,* that scares the crap outta me. MOST other things we are aware of, and HOPEFULLY preparations are being made to strengthen those "systems." But the hackers are starting to zero in on hospitals and banks, and *that is not good!!* You would think banks would have been the *first* to really devote a lot of R & D to "anti-hacking software," but apparently they haven't been as "on-top-of-it" as we may have thought. I don't know that much about IT, but it seems to me there are only two ways "in" for hackers....either the ethernet connection, or the wireless connection, and my simple-minded brain tells me there should be SOME kind of software in place that would "block" an attack from even getting INTO the servers in the first place. Even a DNS attack could be shut down the minute software detects abnormally high traffic INTO the servers. DNS attacks are the most common, and THEY depend on *extreme volumes of traffic* to take down the server(s).....stop that traffic, you've stopped the attack cold. In all these years, the banks haven't come up with some software that automatically shuts down the system when an abnormal traffic pattern is detected??? :gtfo:


The Wifes Brother in Law is the head of IT for a major retail chain. We talk about stuff.

My understanding, all of the operating systems, from the banks to the grocery store inventory systems to the laptop I am typing on, are all little bits and pieces of code going back to the very first PC's. When a new Windows (10, XP, 7) OS comes out, it is not a NEW system at all. It is a jumbled, stacked up mess of all the previous OS's, with a few tweaks that take advantage of faster processor speeds, or a larger and higher resolution screen, things like that. And so flaws become built in. A new version of gmail may slightly break a single line of security in your computers operating system, although I think that is simplistic. And once that flaw is discovered, it can be exploited. If the previous gmail sent a 008 to verify that it is indeed the actual real gmail, and the new version sends 00165, but they fail to "patch" your computers OS so that it still accepts 008 as the truth, then that can be used to fool your comp.

That is NOT how it works, thats just how I explain it to myself.

The current "hack" is from criminals using a tool created by the CIA, part of the CIA/NSA snooping toolkit. The toolkit was released online after being leaked. If you download TOR, and care to get stupid, you can go purchase, or probably just find, a copy of the worm "WANNACRY" I think it is, that is making the rounds right now. It uses an exploit (now patched by microsoft) to update your computer, which thinks it is getting an update from microsoft themselves. It then takes over your computer and locks it up, and tries to use your computer to insert itself into other computers, spreading itself.

Bizarre to me, and incredibly suspicious, that a British computer security tech found the killswitch in the virus' code, used that info to turn off the virus before it struck the US, and wishes to remain anonymous. Imagine the street cred your company would receive for being the one to defeat the criminals AND the US cyber warfare tool kit! Yet they don't want the glory? The business? Unlikely.

IMO, this is just a test run. The WANNACRY worm was just one of hundreds of flaw exploit tool kits released on the web.

As long as the US alphabet soup intelligence agencies hire former software firm employees to make exploits into operating systems, this stuff will keep happening.

My bet? Crashes, infrastructure interruptions, short banking/ATM shutdowns, will become a fact of life. Like traffic jams. Or dropping cell service a block from where you live. Just another day.


----------



## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

Computer Security ..... if it's really that bad, and OTHER countries have THEIR alphabet soup people making these things (plus the damn "independent" HACKERS) we are in DEEP S%$T......just a question of TIME.


----------



## terri9630 (Jun 2, 2016)

Are cell companies having issues today? My sister is here and has no signal at all. She normally does. My phone is a bit slow but working fine.

Apparently AT&T is having issues.

https://www.google.com/url?q=http:/...EgzEYQ&usg=AFQjCNEtXx4N67t6yE7yXq0npsM66l_QsQ.


----------



## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

terri9630 said:


> Are cell companies having issues today? My sister is here and has no signal at all. She normally does. My phone is a bit slow but working fine. Apparently AT&T is having issues.


We have problems here, too. The "Wi-Fi" providers are very good, rarely does service go out, and then only for a few minutes at most. The CELLPHONE SERVICES are another story entirely!! This area is BLANKETED with more cell towers than you can shake a stick at, and it's an everyday thing to have dropped service for 5-10 minutes SEVERAL TIMES A DAY!!! I have no idea WHY, but it sure gets annoying.

:scratch


----------



## terri9630 (Jun 2, 2016)

Pessimistic2 said:


> We have problems here, too. The "Wi-Fi" providers are very good, rarely does service go out, and then only for a few minutes at most. The CELLPHONE SERVICES are another story entirely!! This area is BLANKETED with more cell towers than you can shake a stick at, and it's an everyday thing to have dropped service for 5-10 minutes SEVERAL TIMES A DAY!!! I have no idea WHY, but it sure gets annoying.
> 
> :scratch


It's funny, I have Verizon and she has AT&T. My phone is fine and she still has no signal and she's sitting 3 feet away.


----------



## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

I'd say that after the fall of Rome that Roman money continued to be currency, but the Roman Governments devalued and corrupted the content of coins to the point that as Mister Peabody would say; "the aureus and the denarii aren't worth a Continental."

The later gov'ts of Rome wouldn't even accept their own coinage as taxes because of gov't fraud in minting. 

In an end of the world scenario, paper cash will still be used until it becomes untenable to the wary. Then gold and silver coin and bullion become cash money. 

Suppose an asteroid was going to hit earth and wipe out civilizations. The credit companies put a no limit on everyone's card and let the people have at it. 

If the asteroid averts Earth, they have people locked in for a very long time. If the asteroid hits Earth, it doesn't matter anyway.


----------



## Mase92 (Feb 4, 2013)

Excellent responses. I can see both sides. I just thought this post I linked was a different way to look at things and presented a good case.

I know currently we are all speculating and guessing but as a few posters talked about, having extra on hand can't hurt. 

Thanks for the responses.


----------



## VoorTrekker (Oct 7, 2012)

Correction: Mr. Peabody said the aureus and denarii weren't worth a Continental Weimark.


----------



## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

I too have an issue with paper money. I have none lol


----------

