# Rookie question: do I need a HAM license to use these radios



## pmkrv12

Hello,

I want to have these for emergencies bit I am wondering if I need a HAM license

http://www.amazon.com/Dual-Band-Imp...1407980232&sr=8-3&keywords=baofeng+uv-5r+plus

Thanks PMK

Sent from my iPad using Survival Forum


----------



## sgtusmc98

Legally to transmit yes, to listen no. If your thinking about radios I'd just get the HAM license, it's not too hard and it is fun. 


Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


----------



## Dakine

sgtusmc98 said:


> Legally to transmit yes, to listen no. If your thinking about radios I'd just get the HAM license, it's not too hard and it is fun.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


+1 on this reply.

you can find and use legal frequencies with ham radios, but it's so easy to get a license. In my case, I sacrificed a Saturday and the class (free) went though EVERY question that's allowed to be on the test and everyone got to ask WHY THIS, WHY THAT so they knew it worked the way the test wants you to know it works... and then we took the test.

In my case the cost to proctor the test was $5 and the class was held for free at a fire station about 20 miles away. Fantastic media room I should add! I hope more classes are held there.

anyway... find a similar class in your area and just knock the test out and boom your done for 10 years and the next 10 years is automatic if you just remember to mail them the renewal sheet and the same the 10 years after that. just do the thing once and you're good


----------



## Geek999

sgtusmc98 said:


> Legally to transmit yes, to listen no. If your thinking about radios I'd just get the HAM license, it's not too hard and it is fun.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


This is the correct answer. In addition, you don't want to just get some radios and toss them in a box and expect them to work in an emergency situation. Radios may or may not allow communication between people in specific locations depending on line of sight. By using the radios a bit you can know in advance what is reasonable to expect given your area, e.g. flat vs. hilly, buildings in the way, etc.


----------



## Ozarker

You're required to use you call sign as you'll learn and if there is someone on the air that doesn't use one they are ignored and often reported by other HAMs. HAMs make an effort to earn their right to broadcast according to the regulations, those who don't make that investment in learning are frowned upon to say the least. Call signs are public information, so anyone who hears the call sign will know your station location and name. Using a false call sign just won't work as HAMs know each other and can tell who is who and faking it will most likely get you caught. 
Go to a local club and get involved, folks there will help you if you go in with the right attitude. Radio Shack, I believe, sells the study guides and as mentioned, you memorize test questions to pass but you really need to understand theory and operations. There are school kids that have a license, not hard at all to get on the air.


----------



## NaeKid

Short answer, like the others have said, you need a HAM-radio operator's license to operate the radio to its fullest capacity. 

I have the Baofeng UV-5r and it works "well". I have it programmed for a bunch of the local repeater stations as well as for FRS frequencies (low power radios that are on similar bands to the HAM radios). If you program your Baofeng to only operate with the FRS and not get into the other frequencies, you could easily claim ignorance if someone calls you on it.


----------



## Geek999

NaeKid said:


> Short answer, like the others have said, you need a HAM-radio operator's license to operate the radio to its fullest capacity.
> 
> I have the Baofeng UV-5r and it works "well". I have it programmed for a bunch of the local repeater stations as well as for FRS frequencies (low power radios that are on similar bands to the HAM radios). If you program your Baofeng to only operate with the FRS and not get into the other frequencies, you could easily claim ignorance if someone calls you on it.


Or you could spend $50 and get a pair of legal FRS/GMRS radios.


----------



## NaeKid

Geek999 said:


> Or you could spend $50 and get a pair of legal FRS/GMRS radios.


$24.99 for a single Baofeng radio right now on eBay ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/Baofeng-UV-...-Dual-Dand-FM-Ham-Two-way-Radio-/190835509376 ) ... buy multiples and save on the shipping.

Same price - more features than a regular FRS - and when the OP decides to get his HAM-license, the rest of the features can be legally used as well, saving money in the long run. :wave:


----------



## Geek999

NaeKid said:


> $24.99 for a single Baofeng radio right now on eBay ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/Baofeng-UV-...-Dual-Dand-FM-Ham-Two-way-Radio-/190835509376 ) ... buy multiples and save on the shipping.
> 
> Same price - more features than a regular FRS - and when the OP decides to get his HAM-license, the rest of the features can be legally used as well, saving money in the long run. :wave:


I believe transmission on FRS frequencies with the Baofeng will violate the power limits in the US. Not sure what the rules are in Canada. The fact you could get a pair of each for $100 leaves budget as a non-issue for checking off comms on your list of preps.


----------



## NaeKid

Geek999 said:


> I believe transmission on FRS frequencies with the Baofeng will violate the power limits in the US. Not sure what the rules are in Canada. The fact you could get a pair of each for $100 leaves budget as a non-issue for checking off comms on your list of preps.


In the back country around here, there really isn't any radio-police trying to figure out if someone is using a standard FRS or a high-powered FRS. The difference of FRS signal reaching 10 miles vs. 20 miles isn't enough to raise any eyebrows.

Now, if someone was in the middle of the city and trying to use the Baofeng's higher power on the FRS bands, there might be some trouble, but, only if someone is being annoying with their unit. Quick transmissions probably wouldn't raise any questions about use.


----------



## Geek999

NaeKid said:


> In the back country around here, there really isn't any radio-police trying to figure out if someone is using a standard FRS or a high-powered FRS. The difference of FRS signal reaching 10 miles vs. 20 miles isn't enough to raise any eyebrows.
> 
> Now, if someone was in the middle of the city and trying to use the Baofeng's higher power on the FRS bands, there might be some trouble, but, only if someone is being annoying with their unit. Quick transmissions probably wouldn't raise any questions about use.


True, but the rules are set up to avoid interference, so one should encourage compliance. Unlike a lot of excessively regulated aspects of life these rules do have a purpose. If nothing else they define courtesy to your fellow radio users, so it isn't just a question of whether you wiil get caught.


----------



## pmkrv12

I want to thank everyone for their reply. The idea is to have the ability to communicate with wife and kids during an emergency that overpowers the cell phone network. This would mean that all involved would need the HAM license right?

There was a mention of legal radios for $50, how are the ones I showed not legal? Is it the transmission power.

PMK



Sent from my iPad using Survival Forum


----------



## sgtusmc98

pmkrv12 said:


> I want to thank everyone for their reply. The idea is to have the ability to communicate with wife and kids during an emergency that overpowers the cell phone network. This would mean that all involved would need the HAM license right?
> 
> There was a mention of legal radios for $50, how are the ones I showed not legal? Is it the transmission power.
> 
> PMK
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Survival Forum


Yes every one would need a HAM license to use the Baofeng. The bands it covers is some of it, access to repeaters is another and power. That radio actually covers more frequencies than a HAM license does you should go to another thread in communications, "hack turns walkie talkie ..." And there is a big discussion about this. The Baofeng can be programmed to GMRS and FRS but technically the radio even with a lower power setting is too strong legally. I'm sure no expert and am learning my self. There are various combinations you could do, some legal and some not, take a look at that other thread and see if it helps.

Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


----------



## sgtusmc98

As Geek999 was saying you won't be able to bluff using the HAM frequencies, the FCC for the most part lets HAMs self regulate and to keep it that way HAMS will locate interfering transmissions to keep the FCC out and because it is fun.


Sent from my iPhone using Survival Forum


----------



## lazydaisy67

My dad has a whole ham setup that he doesn't use anymore. In fact, I helped him put some of them together many, many years ago, nice memory. I've chatted with him a little bit about what he's going to do with them and he says he'll probably just sell them since he doesn't get on them anymore. I've been tempted to buy them from him, but don't know a THING about how to use them or how/where to get a license for them, etc. I may check into it a little more. It'd be nice even to just listen for info and updates after TSHTF.


----------



## Geek999

pmkrv12 said:


> I want to thank everyone for their reply. The idea is to have the ability to communicate with wife and kids during an emergency that overpowers the cell phone network. This would mean that all involved would need the HAM license right?
> 
> There was a mention of legal radios for $50, how are the ones I showed not legal? Is it the transmission power.
> 
> PMK
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Survival Forum


Your goal of communications without the cell network is quite reasonable and the cell network will pretty much fail if you sneeze in it's direction.

You are legal as long as you are listening. All the rules are around transmission, so if you want two way communication that is where you need to be aware of the rules. The Baofeng radios operate on frequencies that require a HAM license to transmit. The license requires taking a test and a $14 fee.

The radios themselves are perfectly legal to own or to listen on, but you need a license to transmit. Now if each of you gets a license and then you get these radios you'll be able to communicate around your immediate area, BUT it will take some experimentation in advance to know whether you can successfully communicate between various locations. For instance, you may find you can communicate between point A and B, or between point B and C, but there is a hill between A and C and you can't communicate between those two points.

Depending on distances, terrain, etc. you may be able to accomplish the same goal with CB radios or FRS/GMRS radios.


----------



## Geek999

lazydaisy67 said:


> My dad has a whole ham setup that he doesn't use anymore. In fact, I helped him put some of them together many, many years ago, nice memory. I've chatted with him a little bit about what he's going to do with them and he says he'll probably just sell them since he doesn't get on them anymore. I've been tempted to buy them from him, but don't know a THING about how to use them or how/where to get a license for them, etc. I may check into it a little more. It'd be nice even to just listen for info and updates after TSHTF.


Sounds like great memories. I think many of the old HAMs are less active now and a new generation has not really stepped in. It isn't as much of a day to day hobby as it once was. Many of us who are preppers get licenses but don't spend a lot of time on the air. Also, more of the communication is digital.

If you are interested in getting the license, you should just talk to him. He'll know where to direct you and be happy that you are keeping it up.


----------



## NaeKid

pmkrv12 said:


> I want to thank everyone for their reply. The idea is to have the ability to communicate with wife and kids during an emergency that overpowers the cell phone network. This would mean that all involved would need the HAM license right?
> 
> There was a mention of legal radios for $50, how are the ones I showed not legal? Is it the transmission power.
> 
> PMK
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Survival Forum


You could look at the answer to that question another way.

You can go out and purchase a brand-new motorcycle today. Legally, you need to have a motorcycle license in order to ride that motorcycle on the roadways, but, you don't need a license to own that motorcycle or to stare at it in the garage, or to wash it.

If you were to ride that motorcycle on the roadways without a license, you will probably get caught, possibly fined, possibly have the motorcycle taken away from you, and will be told that you have to get your license to ride on the streets again.

That Baofeng has a bunch of legal features about it that make it look like anyone can own it and use it to its fullest potential - but - it has some features that are only to be used with a full license. There is no need to limit yourself to only the unlicensed legal portion of the radio.


----------



## Geek999

NaeKid said:


> You could look at the answer to that question another way.
> 
> You can go out and purchase a brand-new motorcycle today. Legally, you need to have a motorcycle license in order to ride that motorcycle on the roadways, but, you don't need a license to own that motorcycle or to stare at it in the garage, or to wash it.
> 
> If you were to ride that motorcycle on the roadways without a license, you will probably get caught, possibly fined, possibly have the motorcycle taken away from you, and will be told that you have to get your license to ride on the streets again.
> 
> That Baofeng has a bunch of legal features about it that make it look like anyone can own it and use it to its fullest potential - but - it has some features that are only to be used with a full license. There is no need to limit yourself to only the unlicensed legal portion of the radio.


I understand your analogy but find it a bit more confusing than helpful. The motorcycle can be owned, but is not particularly useful without a license. If your goal is to receive information, and two way communications is secondary then you have a good reason for owning a HAM radio even without a license and that is a pretty common desire. That is a lot more useful than a motorcycle you can wash. 

However, the goal was 2 way communication without the phone network. The choices are 1) CB, good for a few miles depending on terrain, a bit better if it has a SSB feature, generally used in cars, though handheld units are available. 2) FRS/GMRS, cheap, small, short range. In the US a license covers up to 5 radios and no test is required. 3) Low end HAM radios like the Baofeng. Cheap, probably the best range of the 3 choices, but requires a test.

Someone will probably toss in a couple more alternatives, but these 3 are the most common.

I'd like to toss in a couple thoughts about what your goals should be. I have been through several disasters and found communications to be a problem first with knowing what is going on. For this the collection of news and information about the type and location of the disaster is what you need. First step is a small AM/FM battery powered radio. Cost $15-25. If you don't have this covered, that should be your first step. Next is two way communication, for this terrain, budget, and your willingness to go through licensing and work with the equipment prior to a disaster are key to your choice between CB, FRS/GMRS, or HAM.

You may decide that you want to pick up news, etc. from not only the AM bands but also the SW bands, but 2 way communication is not important to you. If that is the case, Adding a cheap HAM radio to the AM/FM would be a useful thing to do.


----------



## pmkrv12

After reading all the replies, I think I a going for a couple of FRS GMRS radios for now so that I avoid any legal issues. Secondly I would want to do something that is against the "community" of HAM operators. Sure when the SHTF I don't have to worry about the FCC.

Another reason is that there are lots of little hills around that would prevent line of sight to ensure good communication over a longer distance.

Any "warlike talkies" you would recommend? I have a. Set of cobras radios

Pmkmd


Sent from my iPad using Survival Forum


----------



## Geek999

pmkrv12 said:


> After reading all the replies, I think I a going for a couple of FRS GMRS radios for now so that I avoid any legal issues. Secondly I would want to do something that is against the "community" of HAM operators. Sure when the SHTF I don't have to worry about the FCC.
> 
> Another reason is that there are lots of little hills around that would prevent line of sight to ensure good communication over a longer distance.
> 
> Any "warlike talkies" you would recommend? I have a. Set of cobras radios
> 
> Pmkmd
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Survival Forum


There is a license for the FRS/GMRS radios, but you don't have to take a test. Just fill out the application, pay the fee, and you are set for up to 5 radios. If you want to be legal, do that. Otherwise, stick to CB where no license is required. I'm not trying to talk you out of the FRS/GMRS I have some of them myself, but I also have the license. They are small, cheap, and convenient. If you later decide to go the HAM route, you will not have wasted money.


----------



## Ozarker

HT's or walkie-talkie are limited not by power, as they may have 5 watts in to the finals, but by the antenna. Hand helds use small whip antennas, we call them "rubber duckies" those best to buy are the ones that have a DNC connector at the antenna so that you can hook up coax and a different antenna. 

Radio signals are line of sight primarily as the signal goes straight out in a radius or in different shapes depending on the type of antenna use. There is a secondary type signal that goes upward in the atmosphere and is then reflected back to earth, these signals can bounce off earth again and keep bouncing for great distances. This is called "skip". The lower the frequency the longer the skip may be since the wavelength is longer. Higher frequencies with shorter wavelengths bounce more often and can reach greater distances as well. You can also bounce a signal off to hit a station over a hill. Look up "Moon Bounce" where HAMs reflect signals off the moon to hit other spots on earth, another hobby in this radio arena. 

Another point, the FCC approved an entry level for HAMs at 6 meters and up without testing for mores code as that difficulty was keeping younger or newer users from entering the radio service. You can look up the history of the FCC and HAM radio, interesting and by doing so you'll understand why we have HAM radio. The purpose being to effect emergency communications and support civil defense or today, the emergency management systems. 

If you consider the purpose as being to effect emergency communications, you'll see why protecting frequencies and bands is important. Emergency commo has priority, if anyone asks to clear any freq. you better step aside and stop transmitting. People should learn the rules of the road before they broadcast on any radio on any freq.

HAMs are also restricted to the types of conversations they may carry on, while not restricted too much (no commercial antics, playing music or broadcasting) each transmission is actually practice in effecting efficient communications. It's not really to tell the wife to pick up milk on the way home, but to practice making contacts. Most discussion is about equipment and related HAM activities. 

If you're on the road and you want the wife to pick up milk, the FRS is better for that purpose. Many off roaders use 2 meter transmissions for scouting trails or to say the need gas or they need to stop. That's really a misuse of the band. The rule is, use the most appropriate band as authorized to effect communications required, that means those off roaders should be using a CB, not HAM bands......but since the FCC made it easy for HAMs to get a license, the beginners aren't so aware of the HAM service and they use the Technician bands like a CB. We're talking more about bad manners than an unlawful act that can get you fined, but if it gets excessive or off color you could be fined. Cussing is another issue as there are kids on the radio who enter the hobby, cussing can get you fined but haven't heard of that lately. Too bad some people can't put a sentence together without cussing, just ignorance.

Go to the AARL web site, just start reading. To select the right radio for your needs you need to understand a bit about how we are regulated, what is permitted, what the purpose of the different bands are for and once you have defined that you can then look to power requirements and antennas with that type of radio best suits the purpose, then obtain the license required (if any) and carry on and enjoy it. 

One thing about radios, you can't be anywhere on earth where there are no regulations being applied by some authority, thinking you are out in the boonies where no one can find you isn't the right approach as they know where you are, what you transmitted, how much poser was used and even identify the type of radio you used. HAMs turn in those stations that abuse the bands as well, so you may or may not get a visit, I'd say the consequences are too great to test them. The FCC is pretty sophisticated, not as much maybe as the NSA, maybe, but you can't hide a signal. 

If you'd like to learn how to track a station, search for "Fox Hunt" in the HAM sites.


----------



## pmkrv12

Thank you Orzaker for the great info I will start doing my home work

Pmkmd


Sent from my iPad using Survival Forum


----------



## pmkrv12

Ozarker that is


Sent from my iPad using Survival Forum


----------



## frankd4

You can use those radios on the MURS frequencies with in the correct power restrictions.


----------



## Caribou

Get your radios. When you have a chance get a license of some type. If you want to practice or play with the radios get a license. The licensed radio operators tend to be a little territorial and will rat you out. They have jumped through the hoops so they want you to as well. However, if you are truly in the middle of an emergency most will gladly help you out. 

Around here many, if not most, people have marine VHF radios in their homes. This is illegal. It is common enough that each village has its own frequency and it is used as a chatroom. If someone wants to they may change frequencies for private chat though anyone can listen in.

The FCC leaves them alone for three reasons. First they don't interfere with any marine traffic due to their location. Second they would have to arrest the entire village. Third, it would be very unhealthy move to try to enforce those laws here. There are places that certain frequencies don't step on licensed users. 

Look at what you want to do. If you want to have secure communication over short distance you may want one radio while a mid range radio may be another frequency. Long range is a totally different critter. Get the radios you want, just don't transmit on restricted frequencies without the proper license except in dire emergency.


----------



## zombieresponder

I've been a licensed general class ham for a few years now, and I still don't understand why people want to own Amateur Radio equipment but not get a license or learn to actually use it. The rationale is always the same: "In case of SHTF and other comms are down". It's dumb and will always be dumb. Radio comms are not utility devices like a knife or whatnot, since the given radio and frequency it operates on may or may not work for the intended use at any given time.

As an example, if you expect a 2m handheld to transmit an intelligible signal to a receiver(your wife/husband/whatever) 50 miles away with the stock "rubber duck" antenna, you will be very disappointed when it fails to happen in the theoretical SHTF. On the other hand, with a well built beam type antenna on both ends, it might be possible under certain, very ideal, conditions......but you won't know without practice and at least some idea of basic operations.

The cost of a license is less than your family eating out once, and IIRC it's good for ten years. All of the test questions are available to the public, so you don't actually have to buy study guides. They are pretty useful though. Usually you can take more than one test in the same session and sometimes for no extra cost. I took the Tech and general class tests at the same time for something like $15. I was done in less than 30 minutes. Study time was a few hours.


----------



## william6697

*about those*

I saw alot of great replies on this.. i guess radio isnt dead  in a SHTF situation, taking bandwidth wont be a problem. in everyday uses? ive gone out at 750W (hf) in a few questionable areas, nobody noticed.. but all it takes is one local EMS/fire/police station saying they have a problem and state troopers (in my area) start watching, and noting and 3 months later you get a nice FCC fine. so in a recap. getting licenced isnt hard.. throw it down and do it, then when you want to test grounded/atmosphere/blocked areas, you can.


----------



## Balls004

I've been looking at getting my license and upgrading my radio comm abilities recently. I am ex military, but not a commo guy, and I went to the AARL website and took the technician practice test, just to see what how much I really needed to learn to get the first license. To my surprise I passed it with what I already knew and a few educated guesses. 

I'm going to be testing as soon as I can schedule a test.


----------



## zombieresponder

I recommend asking whoever is in charge of the testing if you will be able to take more than one test and if so, if any additional fee is required. The Tech license test is easy, mostly just common sense with a few technical questions thrown in. That said, the potential question pool is pretty large.

The Tech and General license tests are 35 questions each. The Extra is 50 questions, but I don't see any point in taking it. General class will get you access to 98% of what is available in the Amateur radio bands. If you can take the Tech and General class tests at the same time(preferable for the same fee), it won't require much more study to pass them both, and all of it will be fresh in your mind versus trying to do the General class months later.

I think I used hamexam.org to help me study, among a few other resources.


----------



## sgtusmc98

Practicing with the radio is extremely important, simplex not so much but for repeater use definitely, many times I programmed a radio just to not have it work right and have to tinker with settings for awhile to make it effective. You should also have contacts out there in case something happens, you may be able to reach them after they have already made other contacts and have info you want or need.


----------



## Balls004

zombieresponder said:


> I recommend asking whoever is in charge of the testing if you will be able to take more than one test and if so, if any additional fee is required. The Tech license test is easy, mostly just common sense with a few technical questions thrown in. That said, the potential question pool is pretty large.
> 
> The Tech and General license tests are 35 questions each. The Extra is 50 questions, but I don't see any point in taking it. General class will get you access to 98% of what is available in the Amateur radio bands. If you can take the Tech and General class tests at the same time(preferable for the same fee), it won't require much more study to pass them both, and all of it will be fresh in your mind versus trying to do the General class months later.
> 
> I think I used hamexam.org to help me study, among a few other resources.


Thanks for the advice, I'll be sure to do that!


----------

