# Do you have info on making a cellar or basement?



## KensWife

Have you tried to build your own cellar or basement?

Any tips?


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## The_Blob

Do you mean under a house that's already built, or before you put a house on top of it?

gotta check the building codes about footer sizes/depth etc. 

are you doing a 'floating slab'? (not sure if that's legal anymore)

if you don't have any construction knowledge or experience my advice would be to not do it yourself...

without more details of what you want to do it's pretty hard to give any advice


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## KensWife

Well, we have an existing home - and its on top of a crawl space... I'm thinking about making a basement or cellar - and placing our shed above it to conceal it instead of having a door sticking out of the ground. 

Hummm... I am going to call for a few quotes to see how much it would run.

Our county does not have any building codes when it comes to that - which is strange, but good for us I guess.


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## dilligaf

your in north carolina and there are no land disturbance codes in your county?? i find that very hard to believe. i think you should check again and make sure..

we built our own root cellar by hand. my advice,rent a skid loader or pay someone to dig for you..lol


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## KensWife

LOL - I know it's a lot of work...

Yes, we are in NC - you know, I did call the county two days ago and the lady who answered the phone told me there are no regulations on this- but last night, I wanted to make sure because after I wrote this post I questioned myself. Originally, we are from Michigan - and we had to abide by many codes.

Someone is supposed to call me back this morning.



dilligaf said:


> your in north carolina and there are no land disturbance codes in your county?? i find that very hard to believe. i think you should check again and make sure..
> 
> we built our own root cellar by hand. my advice,rent a skid loader or pay someone to dig for you..lol


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## Canadian

Rent a backhoe or digger. Even if there are no codes or permits required it is a good idea to follow building codes. The codes are designed by industry professionals so that the structure will meet MINIMUM standards for durability and safety.

My province has pretty good building codes and they are published yearly. You can buy the code book at any big box building materials store. Mike Holmes does not like some of the Ontario codes and thinks they are too weak. 

Considering your structure will be there forever it makes sense to "overbuild" it and add in as many features as you can now. It'll cost more to modify it later. 

I'd sit down and do some brainstorming with friends and look at lots of other designs and talk it out for a while. Then you can sit down with an architect / engineer and come up with the best design ever.


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## Merlin

KensWife said:


> Well, we have an existing home - and its on top of a crawl space... I'm thinking about making a basement or cellar - and placing our shed above it to conceal it instead of having a door sticking out of the ground.
> 
> Hummm... I am going to call for a few quotes to see how much it would run.
> 
> Our county does not have any building codes when it comes to that - which is strange, but good for us I guess.


 Hi are we to understand it will be under you house?????? with a shed over the door??? or are we talking a separate hole with the shed over it???
Believe it or not, it makes a lot of difference in building codes and cost. In California going by the building code book witch is similar to the one on the east coast there are codes. now whether your county and city adopt them and enforces them that may be different.. You can get away with a lot more if you dig away from the house there are formulas depth versus distance of ground being disturbed, but there again there's rules about distance from dwelling property lines and under ground utilities and over head utilities also are there easements to be concerned with .. Or are you just going to try to bootleg it in ???? you need to give more info before someone can just jump in and say this is the way to do it... give us all the details and maybe you will get good ideas good luck!!!


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## KensWife

I am talking about building a basement in our back yard and then covering it with a shed or other type of out building.

There are a couple of reasons I would like it covered... the main one being - we would use the shed/out building... plus I would like the looks of it better.

Picture something like this,










with a basement under it.


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## KensWife

by the way - we would conform to a code or regulation even if we do not have regulations- we dont want it to cave in on us. LOL


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## endurance

A friend of mine started having plumbing problems last year and decided to check out his crawl space. After a little moving around under the house, he discovered that his house was built in two sections. The first house was built with a rock foundation probably in the late 1800's and was doing fine. However, the other end of the house was sinking into the ground as the floor joists rotted on the ground. He had no foundation on one side of his house; they just laid out the floor on the ground! He's in construction and excavation, so he did what no rational person would do and tore up his kitchen floor so he could have more access and started digging. He started with a fairly small section and added rough-cut 2x8x8s as he went down. Eventually he got to about 6'6" down, then started expanding, hauling all the dirt out by hand in five gallon buckets. I've helped him on a number of occasions and 18 months later, he as the entire north side of his house excavated, he's jacked the house back up with several 15 ton jacks, and put a treated lumber foundation under it. He now has a good sized (~20x16') area dug out and I'm planning on using it as a cache if I ever need to relocate.

Anyway, the biggest lesson I learned was that origionally he was just planning on going down 3-4', but working bent over was so difficult that it was actually less work to take out more material and go deep enough to stand upright. Make sure you're shoring up regularly to prevent cave-ins. Also, it would probably be a good idea to test the crawl space for radon before you start working down there, as otherwise you may be putting yourself and your family at risk.


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## Canadian

If you're going to pour cement I'd make the whole thing including the entrance out of cement. I'd put on a waterproof membrane and cover the entrance with dirt so it looked like a small hill. Kind of like a mini bunker. 

Remember to keep this thing close to your house. You will need to run electrical to it at the very least if you want to have lights down there.


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## endurance

If it's not in or under the house, consider running a 3' culvert to it from the house to give you access without going outside.


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## Canadian

The culvert is a good idea.


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## Merlin

KensWife said:


> by the way - we would conform to a code or regulation even if we do not have regulations- we dont want it to cave in on us. LOL


 Well now how close to the house or other items previously mentioned.?? if you are in the clear are you going to pour concrete ??and will it be a multi pour or is it going to be monolithic pour??? or are you pouring a slab and using cider brick?? and then are you going to pour them?? but basically from a structure you must be 3ft min and then you must know the depth of dig lets say you want 8 ft inside basement top is level with ground you will need to dig 9ft min to pour a 6 inch slab if soil is good and you have compaction this would mean the hole is 9 feet deep so now you have to know how deep your footing is lets say 3 feet below grade you are digging 9 ft min below grade now you must figure from 3 ft below at a 45 degree angle thus you will have to be approx 8-9 ft away min to the side of your hole at bottom there are many more variables allowing you to be closer or making you have to be further so its something you will have to get local contacts who have done it and can come on site.. and teach you or you can read up on it and wing it but either way figure out what you want and draw it up wall and slab thickness re-bar and wire needs moisture barrier for bottom and walls make a if you want radiation protection how much dirt on top or maybe go pre made or drop in a large 10 foot culvert like they use to make bomb shelters in the late 40s and 50s look in the popular mechanics mags of the day they have a complete set of plans of the day including venting and storage . but they need to be modernized and corrected for radiation hey good luck and most of all have fun


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## KensWife

I really like the culvert idea... one of our friends who has a little experience in this will be coming over today to check it out.


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## endurance

The most creative uses for a culvert I ever saw was one of my parent's friends house when I was a kid. They had a 50' long x 3' diameter culvert that went out from a room in their basement with a bullet trap at the end of it. They had a modified garage door opener to pull paper targets down range and used it for hand gun training. Cool idea, but now that most gun ranges have had lead contamination issues before the change to fully jacketed bullets, I wonder just how many years they took off their lives from lead poisoning; this was back in the late 70's-early 80's...


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## KensWife

Well, now I have to ask - are they still alive??


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## endurance

I don't know for sure. They were my dad's friends and once my folks split, I lost track of the family. However, I just did a google on them and it appears at least the husband is still alive at age 73, so I guess it wasn't that bad....


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## KensWife

73 is not bad at all! LOL

You know, I met a lady at the grocery store the other day who was 86 and she was buying cigarettes. LOL - I wanted so badly to ask her if she was buying them for herself...


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## TechAdmin

My Grandpa smoked in his 80's as well.


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## The_Blob

Root Cellars:

http://www.life.ca/nl/50/rootcellar.html

How to stock your cellar:

Stocking the Root Cellar

Hobby Farms, Livestock & Pets, Crops & Gardening, Home & Barn


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## butchmorton

A shovel and 5 gallon buckets


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## TJJackson

*Drain that cellar*

I have built three cellars in the past and the one thing that I have learned is to be very careful about drainage. If possible, go with a gravity system so there can be no surprises when the power goes out in bad weather. I had a heck of a problem with my first cellar and it took a lot of doing to get it dry and keep it dry.


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## VUnder

I build basements and will be glad to talk you through it. I would keep a tight lip about it and not let anyone local know what you are up to. Believe me, if things get bad, and radios and tv's don't work, they will remember your basement and come check it out, there won't be any law to worry about. Best to keep it as a best kept secret. Feel free to pm me if you need help.


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## longtime

I lived in a house once that someone had added a basement to the crawspace. They dug the entire crawspace out, just 3 feet from the foundation wall. They then built block wall up to the orginal dirt level, back filled and poured a concrete floor and a concrete shelf at the original dirt level. It worked out very well.

Just an idea to consider.


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## Blackphibian

I got a book called ]Root Cellaring Natural cold storage of fruits and vegetables by Mike and Nancy Bubel.


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## Londoner

If you build a cellar with a shed in top make sure the building on top is not wood. There is strong evidence going way back to the beginning of time that at times of warefare or civil unrest buildings get torched. Often this is done irrationally so I can only suggest its something deep inside the human psyche to want to destroy what they see as the dwellings of their "enemies"

However, you don't want to be sitting underneath it when it goes up. A steel building would be safer.

This torching "syndrome" is a factor not taken into account by a lot of preppers when making their plans. When they come first they will loot but next they will burn. Human nature IMO


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## Londoner

VUnder said:


> I build basements and will be glad to talk you through it. I would keep a tight lip about it and not let anyone local know what you are up to. Believe me, if things get bad, and radios and tv's don't work, they will remember your basement and come check it out, there won't be any law to worry about. Best to keep it as a best kept secret. Feel free to pm me if you need help.


Thats the best all round advice I can imagine.


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## Bobbb

VUnder said:


> *I build basements and will be glad to talk you through it. * I would keep a tight lip about it and not let anyone local know what you are up to. Believe me, if things get bad, and radios and tv's don't work, they will remember your basement and come check it out, there won't be any law to worry about. Best to keep it as a best kept secret. Feel free to pm me if you need help.


Would you share some of your wisdom with me?

Could you point out the flaws or suggest things to do with the following scenario:

During a new basement pour I'd like to make a provision for a door in the basement wall but do it without a building official knowing about it. I was thinking that I could provide extra rebar around the frame of the door so as to carry the load from above the door and distribute alongside the door. Then I'd stuff a filler box of wood into the door cavity but it would be shy of being full width. Then pour the concrete into the forms. Peel off the forms and it would look like a monolithic wall. Would this work?

What I want to build is something like this but with a 6'-8' cover of dirt overtop, meaning that the basement entrance would connect to a tunnel/staircase which leads away from the house and down to the cellar:










I was thinking of making that section of wall 10'-11' high, rather than 8', in an 8' basement, in order to not disturb the footings when I have to dig the tunnel to the cellar. What do you think of this notion?

I have a lot more questions that I'd like to run by you but I'm not sure that you're visiting this thread any longer.


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## Londoner

The only thing you have to be aware of when building anything down into the ground it that if you go below the water table anything you build will be a giant concrete "boat" and will float if the water table rises. Archemedes principle and all that stuff.


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## Meerkat

Any hills close by,I'd dig out reinforce and cover back up with the backfill.Wish I had a hill here.Also miss rocks,not a rock in sight.When the dogs were peeing on my roses I reached for a rock and there was'nt any.I grew up in Georgia around the largest rock on earth,so it took getting use to not having any.


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## Jimthewagontraveler

I love the idea of the wood shed provided it can be a
Sacrificial building.
By that I mean use the building as a guard/radio shack.
When things get to rough don't wait for someone else to burn it torch/ blow it yourself.
Any one is going to think it was boobey trapped.
It could be used to take out bad guys and make it hard to follow you into wonderland.
Make sure it's a good hot fire.
I know if I was pursuing some bad guy and he ran into a house that caught fire I would be sure I had won I doubt I would sift the ashes.


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## Londoner

Canadian said:


> If you're going to pour cement I'd make the whole thing including the entrance out of cement. I'd put on a waterproof membrane and cover the entrance with dirt so it looked like a small hill. Kind of like a mini bunker.
> 
> Remember to keep this thing close to your house. You will need to run electrical to it at the very least if you want to have lights down there.


Not very likely to be electricity. That will be an early casualty


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## VUnder

I have a lot more questions that I'd like to run by you but I'm not sure that you're visiting this thread any longer.[/QUOTE]

Will the building official be looking at the finished product with the forms off? You could have the wood almost out to the finished surface of the wall. If you get it too close, a line will be in the concrete and somebody may figure you out. I suppose you are going to dig out of the basement after it is built? I would really look into ICF if I were you. They are a lot easier to use for the DIY'er. Are you doing cinder blocks or forming concrete? I would use durawall in the blocks if going that route. Use ICF and you can do that much easier by yourself. There is a specific brand that is real easy to use. I myself would dread using plyform and forming all those walls out of wood. I could pour the floor, wet set the ICF blocks, lay the rest, and be pouring the walls with my own concrete in the next day or so. They do need a waterproof membrane, but everything does anyway. If you have a side of a hill for natural drainage, you got it whipped. I do get on here every day or so. Last few days I have been gone from can to can't, so have not had time to check and didn't feel like it if I did. I am talking leaving out at five am and turning the welder off at ten forty five at night. I have had a few days of that lately, so I am tired.


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## VUnder

Londoner said:


> The only thing you have to be aware of when building anything down into the ground it that if you go below the water table anything you build will be a giant concrete "boat" and will float if the water table rises. Archemedes principle and all that stuff.


I have seen one float up and flip the dozer over that was parked on top of it. they even built concrete boats during WW2. Water pressure is tremendous so make sure you have some type of drainage. If you have any hill at all, best bet is to put field lines under your floor and dig a ditch all the way out, with plenty of fall, until you run out at ground level. Might be good for your sewer also if you can work it in. I am blessed with a hill to live on, with plenty of slope. It is flat where my house and yard is, and flat where the pasture is, but a lot if difference in a short distance in between. Maybe even dig a well through it also. Then you can have water, sewer, all taken care of. You could even flush a toilet if you had a well in your basement also. Drill it before you build the basement, or dig one after the basement is built. Just suggestions.


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## Bobbb

VUnder said:


> Will the building official be looking at the finished product with the forms off? You could have the wood almost out to the finished surface of the wall. If you get it too close, a line will be in the concrete and somebody may figure you out.


Good point.

I was trying to think of ease of cutting out a door frame in the basement wall. I suppose I could just fill the 8'x3'x8" volume with concrete absent rebar and just waste $100 of concrete.



> I suppose you are going to dig out of the basement after it is built? I would really look into ICF if I were you. They are a lot easier to use for the DIY'er.


That's a good idea. The door would be hidden behind the foam insulation and wouldn't be as easily detectable.

What I want to do is have a root cellar, a cheese cave, a meat hanging room and a put in place a small salvaged walk-in freezer that I have sitting around in component parts and have it buried with an 8' cover of dirt and have a small tunnel, with steps, leading from my poured concrete basement down to the root cellar. I want to run this root cellar as lower temperatures and thermally isolate it from above ground temperatures and also want to keep the cold away from my basement. So ease of use from within the house has to be balanced against thermal isolation and the best compromise I can come up with is this tunnel to the root cellar.

Now, as for when during the construction process this will be built, the ideal time to build is after the foundation goes in and before the backfill, thus reducing my need to excavate a 2nd time and excavate deeper than the foundation. The obvious problem here is that I want to keep the root cellar off the tax records and away from prying eyes. Digging and building during construction loses this activity in plain sight while digging and building after the house is built will draw attention to the cellar.

I need to find a plausible excuse to explain why there is an 6'-8' deep hole 12'-15' away from the foundation excavation without having the inspector tell me to fill it and pack it down in order to stabilize the ground for the footings or some other reason before he signs off on the pouring of the foundation wall. I don't mind appear stupid and coming up with some bogus explanation which will have the inspector laughing at me, so long as the hole remains unfilled. Then when the foundation passes, with waterproofing and insulation, etc, and the inspector leaves until the next time I need an approval, I want to knock out the door, frame the forms for the tunnel, slope it downwards, frame the forms for the root cellar, pour, wait for curing, waterproof, insulate, and then backfill the whole shebang and forget about it until the entire house is finished, when I can put in ventilation, set up the freezer, set up lighting, set up the in-ground cooling system which will prevent frost-heave, etc.

My technical questions, the ones I can think of at this moment, are whether you think it would be a good idea to form the rebar around the doorway so that it extends out of the foundation and then tie in the tunnel to the rebar. Also, I don't want to disturb the footings where the door is situated and where the tunnel with the stairs will start sloping downwards, so a.) is this something that I'm right to be concerned about and b.) would I solve this issue by simply stepping the foundation down another 2' or so in that section of the foundation wall and then, when partially backfilled, the doorway would be 2' higher than the footings, so as the tunnel steps start sloping downwards, they would still be above the footings and by the time the steps got to be below the footing, I'd be 3'+ away. Last question - if I did step down the foundation I could do this before a footing inspection and then explain that there was a rock there and I dug it out, therefore needing to go a bit deeper to find stable soil. Would that be plausible?



> Are you doing cinder blocks or forming concrete? I would use durawall in the blocks if going that route.


I'll be forming the concrete. I'm open to ICF.


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## VUnder

Bobbb said:


> Good point.
> 
> I was trying to think of ease of cutting out a door frame in the basement wall. I suppose I could just fill the 8'x3'x8" volume with concrete absent rebar and just waste $100 of concrete.
> 
> That's a good idea. The door would be hidden behind the foam insulation and wouldn't be as easily detectable.
> 
> What I want to do is have a root cellar, a cheese cave, a meat hanging room and a put in place a small salvaged walk-in freezer that I have sitting around in component parts and have it buried with an 8' cover of dirt and have a small tunnel, with steps, leading from my poured concrete basement down to the root cellar. I want to run this root cellar as lower temperatures and thermally isolate it from above ground temperatures and also want to keep the cold away from my basement. So ease of use from within the house has to be balanced against thermal isolation and the best compromise I can come up with is this tunnel to the root cellar.
> 
> Now, as for when during the construction process this will be built, the ideal time to build is after the foundation goes in and before the backfill, thus reducing my need to excavate a 2nd time and excavate deeper than the foundation. The obvious problem here is that I want to keep the root cellar off the tax records and away from prying eyes. Digging and building during construction loses this activity in plain sight while digging and building after the house is built will draw attention to the cellar.
> 
> I need to find a plausible excuse to explain why there is an 6'-8' deep hole 12'-15' away from the foundation excavation without having the inspector tell me to fill it and pack it down in order to stabilize the ground for the footings or some other reason before he signs off on the pouring of the foundation wall. I don't mind appear stupid and coming up with some bogus explanation which will have the inspector laughing at me, so long as the hole remains unfilled. Then when the foundation passes, with waterproofing and insulation, etc, and the inspector leaves until the next time I need an approval, I want to knock out the door, frame the forms for the tunnel, slope it downwards, frame the forms for the root cellar, pour, wait for curing, waterproof, insulate, and then backfill the whole shebang and forget about it until the entire house is finished, when I can put in ventilation, set up the freezer, set up lighting, set up the in-ground cooling system which will prevent frost-heave, etc.
> 
> My technical questions, the ones I can think of at this moment, are whether you think it would be a good idea to form the rebar around the doorway so that it extends out of the foundation and then tie in the tunnel to the rebar. Also, I don't want to disturb the footings where the door is situated and where the tunnel with the stairs will start sloping downwards, so a.) is this something that I'm right to be concerned about and b.) would I solve this issue by simply stepping the foundation down another 2' or so in that section of the foundation wall and then, when partially backfilled, the doorway would be 2' higher than the footings, so as the tunnel steps start sloping downwards, they would still be above the footings and by the time the steps got to be below the footing, I'd be 3'+ away. Last question - if I did step down the foundation I could do this before a footing inspection and then explain that there was a rock there and I dug it out, therefore needing to go a bit deeper to find stable soil. Would that be plausible?
> 
> I'll be forming the concrete. I'm open to ICF.


Around here, an inspector doesn't come around unless you call. Usually with me, they drive by on the street, roll down the window, and ask me where to send the bill for the inspection, and drive off. I am not kidding. Sometimes I have actually got him to come check it all out. He is a good inspector, knows his job, but I guess he trusts my work.

I would always try to tie everything together if any way possible, and there always is, so I always do. Maybe you could start your project, shoot all your grades, and build your cellar first, cover, and then go on about building your basement. You have to be sneaky. Pour your floor, set your walls, fill them, strut some tin across the top and pour your roof, put your waterproofing on, and cover it all up. If you use the ICF, you can jab some 2x lumber in them and hold your doorway clear. I might would leave a piece or two of 3/4" plywood on the outside of the door to keep the backfill from caving your door in. So, if you have an 8' cover of dirt, you will be 16' or so down? Am I following you correctly?

You could step the footing for the doorway. If they ask, just say you had to step the footing. Leave it at that. Don't offer any more information than is needed. Might be a good idea to start rounding up some concrete, a little here, a little there, so not to be getting a lot in one place. The ICF's are the size of six cinder blocks and a yard of crete fills eleven blocks, or an area of 66 cinder blocks. All the insulating will already be done too. The ICF's are a friend for the one man show. I am not trying to push them on you, just trying to save you some time, and time is what you need on your side. I built a 5000 sq ft basement that you can drive a truck down into. Completely in the ground, not on a hill side.

Just tell the inspector you got off grade when digging and had to step it down further instead of filling back in to get up to grade.


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## Londoner

There are also big considerations about the water table unless you want an indoor swimming pool under your house. Many US houses that are built with basements its actually a half basement and then the ground is landscaped up to it.

Because of property prices in central London some people are having basements dug out under existing houses but its hugely complicated because the basement acts like a concrete boat and tries to "float" in the groundwater, as I mentioned in a previous post on this thread. So they have to dig sumps and have pumps to take the water away _constantly._

So what happens to these houses when we in London get a Hurricane Sandy event and a week long power out? Are we going to see whole houses rising out of the ground?


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## Bobbb

Londoner said:


> So what happens to these houses when we in London get a Hurricane Sandy event and a week long power out? Are we going to see whole houses rising out of the ground?


Let's try an experiment. Take a brick, throw it into a lake, and let's see if it floats like a boat. Archimedes' principle.


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## Tirediron

now lets take a plate of steel and see if it floats, no it doesnt, but put four more plates pependicularly around it sealed and you have a boat, if a basement is sealed it will float.


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## Bobbb

Tirediron said:


> now lets take a plate of steel and see if it floats, no it doesnt, but put four more plates pependicularly around it sealed and you have a boat, if a basement is sealed it will float.


A basement is a different creature than a house with a basement underneath it. A basement alone can float under the right conditions because of Archimedes' Displacement principle.

Take your steel plated box and put 10 bricks into the box and then see if your steel box floats.


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## Tirediron

there you go school boy https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Container_ship_MV_Maersk_Alabama.jpg

Just cause you use big long sentences don't mean you know much


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## Bobbb

Tirediron said:


> there you go school boy


What do you think NYC should do with all of those toppled buildings, you know the one's with basements that the flood waters floated?

Oh, did I say toppled buildings?




























And how about all of those flooded tunnels floating up to the surface? What good is a tunnel if it's not underground?


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## Tirediron

this thread is about houses and those basements are probably not sealed


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## Bobbb

Tirediron said:


> this thread is about houses and those basements are probably not sealed


What happens to your container ship if you grossly overload it? It sinks, that's what happens.

For a basement to float the surrounding material has to be saturated, meaning that the water completely surrounds the walls and is underneath the floor. The surrounding material has to, in effect, be a small lake, even though the dirt is still there. This allows the hydrostatic forces to exert themselves. If that effect isn't total, then the displacement factor is modified, if there is friction on the walls then that will work to counteract the buoyancy effect. Secondly there is the mass loading of the houses and it's contents. Recall that the mass of the house has to displace the mass of the volume of water in order for the house to sink, meaning that for it to float the house has to mass less than the volume of water that the basement volume displaces and this is under ideal conditions, with saturated soil acting just like water.

So, it's possible under ideal circumstances to have a house uplifted and float away, basement included, but the reason we hardly (or ever?) hear of this happening is because those ideal circumstances don't arise even if there is a flood. When you walk through a flooded field the land under the flood waters doesn't alway saturate completely and for our scenario we'd need that saturation effect to penetrate down to the bottom of the basement level, get underneath the floor and that's when we'd possibly get the floating effect.

Now just because you can design a house with a basement and set it into a lake and have that house float doesn't mean that the exact same house set on footing 8' below ground is going to do the same thing come a flood of your neighborhood.

If you have photos, or reports, of houses with full basements floating out of the ground and being swept away during a flood I'd very much like to educate myself on the particulars of those events.


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## Tirediron

Now all knowing Bobbb if you had any actual knowledge about basements you would know that they are not often built like boats, bt rather a set of footings and a floor pad, so that the water would just seep up into the basement and nothing would happen. Just cause you can paste stuff you find on the net doesn't mean that it makes you an expert.


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## Bobbb

Tirediron said:


> you would know that they are not often built like boats, bt rather a set of footings and a floor pad


Get your story straight: _"now lets take a plate of steel and see if it floats, no it doesnt, but put four more plates pependicularly around it sealed and you have a boat, if a basement is sealed it will float. "_


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## hiwall

I can testify to the fact that we get very few floating houses here in Arizona.


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## Tirediron

Bobbb said:


> Get your story straight: _"now lets take a plate of steel and see if it floats, no it doesnt, but put four more plates pependicularly around it sealed and you have a boat, if a basement is sealed it will float. "_


get your own story straight first, you compared a basement type structure to a brick ,then you wanted a load, they you used binding force as an excuse , then you want me to get my story straight .

no where did I say basements floated, I showed your brick to be non boat like. I said if a basement is sealed it would float, that is part of the reason the footing have to be below frostline the hydraulic pressure of frost expansion causes them to raise.


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## DJgang

Goodness, if my house and basement start to need to float...you all are dead!


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## cmgallman

This started out to be an imformative thread, then just turned into a pi$$1ng match!


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## LincTex

Any progress reports?

I wish I had pics of grandpa's basement. It was arched like a Quonset... VERY strong and not likely to cave in, ever (vs a flat ceiling).


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## carolexan

LincTex you are a very near neighbor of ours...howdy from the Lake!!


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## LincTex

carolexan said:


> LincTex you are a very near neighbor of ours...howdy from the Lake!!


Howdy!
"tsrwivey" is also from Tyler, and a few others on here. 
I think "GaryW" was(?) but now lives in Denton?

Sounds like we need to plan another Texas "meet-up"!


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## anthonyc12

After talking to some general contractors that want more money than I will pay I have decided to attempt a 24x38 full basement on my own (I'll have one buddy to help when pouring). I have decided on using 8x8x16 block for the walls and there will be no windows and no doors either. The floor plan is for a 2x6 wood supporting wall down the center lengthwise.

My "plan" was to put the footings around the outside (and center if needed) and then build the outside block wall. Next I want to pour the floor in two pours that are roughly 12 feet wide and 38 feet long.

Is it OK to have a seam (caused by the seperation of the two pours) right under the center supporting wall?

If so, do I have to put a footing under the seam or just make the edges of the two slabs thicker near the seam?

Also do I extend rebar out from the first pour across the seam to join into the second pour?

Do I need something for expansion between the slab and perimeter block wall?

I thought to give the wall support by filling every 5th vertical chamber with concrete and a rebar, is this a good spacing for this?

Do I put rigid insulation between the footing and the slab or do rest the slab on the footing and just insulate betwwen the earth and the slab?

See, I told ya I needed advise.


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## LincTex

Good questions!

The slabs I see now being poured in Texas are not just big flat slabs... they have trenches dug, lay plastic over everything and add some sort of tension cables placed in the trenches before pouring, called "post-tensioned slabs". The slab is DEFINITELY tied in with the footings. Same with the seam... or one slab would heave and a step in the edges where they meet would ensue. I am thinking for sure a footing under your seam.

http://www.concreteconstruction.net...ost-tensioned-slab-on-ground-foundations.aspx

http://www.concreteconstruction.net/concrete-construction/post-tensioned-slabs.aspx

http://www.concretecentre.com/techn...frame_elements/slabs/post-tensioned_slab.aspx

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/basements/msg0817235320407.html

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=122491

http://massiehouse.blogspot.com/2005/09/pouring-basement-slab.html

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=7503.0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prestressed_concrete

Pour basement slab construction for the building of a house 





Single Family Home- Post Tension Slab/Foundation










http://www.doityourself.com/forum/electrical-ac-dc/404678-conduit-under-slabs.html


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## readytogo

anthonyc12 said:


> After talking to some general contractors that want more money than I will pay I have decided to attempt a 24x38 full basement on my own (I'll have one buddy to help when pouring). I have decided on using 8x8x16 block for the walls and there will be no windows and no doors either. The floor plan is for a 2x6 wood supporting wall down the center lengthwise.
> 
> My "plan" was to put the footings around the outside (and center if needed) and then build the outside block wall. Next I want to pour the floor in two pours that are roughly 12 feet wide and 38 feet long.
> 
> Is it OK to have a seam (caused by the seperation of the two pours) right under the center supporting wall?
> 
> If so, do I have to put a footing under the seam or just make the edges of the two slabs thicker near the seam?
> 
> Also do I extend rebar out from the first pour across the seam to join into the second pour?
> 
> Do I need something for expansion between the slab and perimeter block wall?
> 
> I thought to give the wall support by filling every 5th vertical chamber with concrete and a rebar, is this a good spacing for this?
> 
> Do I put rigid insulation between the footing and the slab or do rest the slab on the footing and just insulate betwwen the earth and the slab?
> 
> See, I told ya I needed advise.


You will be better off with pour cement walls vs. blocks, faster, cheaper , stronger and better waterproofing and with the appropriated footing on the walls all you need later is to fill in the floor with pour cement and plain old rebar or heavy wire meshing.


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## readytogo

*Basement and Foundations*

http://www.smartblock.com/foundations.html
http://www.concreteformrentals.com/residential-2/


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## anthonyc12

thanks for advice i really appreciate the effort


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