# Ultimate Question How Long Will It Take For Regular Home Invasions Once TEOTWAWKI



## PeachesBackwards

Ultimate Question How Long Will It Take For Regular Home Invasions Once TEOTWAWKI starts for the Entire US, your rough guesses, serious please,and why. Let me clarify before you begin to answer. I'm not talking about a one state/region SHTF situation like Katrina but a hypothetical situation (the cause is not relevant here for this thread) where every single place in the US for whatever reason does not have access to food, water and medicines. I'm assuming this would not be an overnight situation where everything happens at once but a gradual situation over a few months starting at SHTF and progressing to the TEOTWAWKI. 

In my estimation there will not be regular break ins/home invasions till people come to the conclusion they will be out of resources they need to survive and there no longer is a police force or national guard in place or justice system to enforce the law. For example if you lived in New Orleans during Katrina you would fully realize that if you committed break ins/crimes you would eventually get arrested and prosecuted once law and order was reestablished. But just imagine if you knew it wouldn't be reestablished and every place else in the US was under similar situations with no eventual relief.

I hope this doesn't sound too convoluted. I would expect for the first month or 2, there would still be to a much lesser scale food and water and medicines available and as a result there would be no regular break ins of your house or apartment. When do you think this would be a regular occurrence? If you want me to reword this thread let me know.


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## camo2460

It's really hard to give an answer to your question, since there are so many variables that would come into play, but consider this: in New York during a black out some time ago looting and crime started as soon as the Sun went down. Consider also the Civil unrest in Ferguson Mo., Baltimore, Md., New York and other places, which happened during the day as well as at night. My point is that it often does not take an "end of the world event" to strip away the thin Veneer of civilization, and turn some people into the Animals living just below the surface. No matter what, if anything, happens though remember that knowledge is power, and it doesn't weigh anything, so it's easy to carry. Learn some urban and wilderness survival skills, be aware of your surroundings and events that are happening in your area, and above all maintain a clear mind and a calm Spirit, don't let fear rule you.


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## PeachesBackwards

But I don't think there were regular break ins of homes during those events, say 5% of all residences each day. That's what I'm talking about, Not store break ins but home invasions where people of all walks of life and economic classes are willing to break into homes for food, water, medicines. 

I totally realize there are many variables but I'm trying to see if the majority of people here have some kind of general timeline so I can use as a guide should that ever occur.

Again we're not talking riots, store break ins but regular unending break ins of peoples residences to get every day resources one needs to survive like food, water, etc.


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## ZoomZoom

I think a lot of it would be based on where you live.

Urban areas would get hit pretty quickly. I'd think a matter of days. It would be homes as well as businesses. There would probably be violence within days.

Suburbanites have the means to store more more provisions compared to urban apartment living. They could probably last a couple weeks but they have a problem. Urban residents will be out of necessities and many will start branching out. Mostly on foot or other slow transportation means. They'll then encounter the inner then outer suburbs looking for their next meal. Unfortunately (and depending on where you live), the people in the suburbs may be more armed. Now there's battles going on in those areas. 

Rural folk are generally more prepared. There may be small amounts of B&E's and such from locals but the masses from the urban and suburban areas will eventually make it out their way. Depending on topography, roads and such, defensive actions can be taken to limit access. (e.g. put heavy equipment across roads). Open areas will allow monitoring of anyone approaching. Dogs as early warning systems. Multiple buildings (e.g. barns, silos...) to take vantage points. These areas are therefore hardened and defended a bit more than urban/suburban areas and would be much harder to attack.


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## tsrwivey

There is always a threat of home invasion, even in good times. The threat increases as the severity of the situation & chance of success increase & the threat of consequences decreases. There are some things you can do to lessen your chances of becoming a victim.
1. Up your security. Dogs, guns, alarm systems, good fences, lighting, etc.
2. Live where not many people even know you're there. 
3. Keep your mouth shut about your preps. When you blab to coworkers, extended family, & friends about food storage you up your chances of becoming a target.
4. Hide your preps, they can't steal them if they can't find them.
5. Live far away from large groups of people. People are dangerous, groups of people are even worse. People will do things as part of a group that they'd never do alone. 
6. Stay on high alert at all times in a SHTF situation. It doesn't really matter when the rate of home invasion goes up, it only matters when one is attempted on your home.

People will come to the realization that order will not be restored in their own time. For some that will be in a few days, for others it could be months, still others will continue to believe that help is on the way even longer.


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## TheLazyL

I'd guess about one week. Based on my opinion that the unprepared majority can find a week's worth of food either in their own home or by scrounging/looting.

Then they will start acting like undeserving welfare recipients demanding a share of what you worked hard for and they didn't.


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## bigg777

Never base your decisions on an average or a guesstimate.

As soon as unscrupulous individuals realize that they are screwed without other people's stuff, the home invasions begin!

It will take somewhat longer for "decent" folks in dire straights to come to the same conclusion, but those with no morals will start ransacking and stealing within a day or two of their eyes being opened to the new reality, some within hours!

Once again, we come down to the "pre" part of preparation. Water, food, shelter and security are tops on the list. Prepare yourself in those areas prior to any situation that will require you to be self-sufficient.

There are NO reasons that you cannot prepare yourself for a disaster, only excuses.


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## jimLE

as it's been pointed out.there's to many variables.each person's situation is different.and that's including any 2 people in the same city/town..and they can be living within 1 city block of each other..same goes for a city of 5000 and one of 1200...but yet.i think the outcome will be very much the same..from looting businesses to breaking into homes..surveys pointed out,that food shelves are empty inside of a week,easily..and thats during a 1 to 2 week power outage.or when folks know that there's a sever snowstorm on the way..all i know for anyone to do,as well as myself..assess their own situation in every way possible.inside the home,and any other structure on the property,(if any).to looking everything over from the outside.look for all weak points.and the possibility of weak points.inside and outside alike.if you see 1 weak point from the outside,then anyone who poses a threat has a way in..then improve on them,where they're no longer weak points.


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## hiwall

Time table in exact days is impossible to know. Break-ins would increase from the 'normal' amount immediately to some small extent. Major increase in home break-ins would occur as soon as commercial businesses were emptied. I would think that would be your timeline. You would be relatively safe while the riff-raff concentrated on looting businesses then when that source was depleted you would have to expect them to come knocking on your door.


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## TheLazyL

I define "Regular Home Invasions" as breaking into a house that is known to be occupied. That definition is how I based my earlier post on.


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## BillS

Break-ins and home invasions will start once the power has been out for a day. Within 72 hours they will become rampant as people run out of food and water. You have to remember that most people only have a few days worth of food. Water pressure will be lost within 24 hours of a power outage. Most people have more stored food than stored water. There will be more people with guns than people with food although the percentage of armed people will depend on where you live.

Once the power goes out during an SHTF event I would have someone in the house awake and armed at all times. It will be too dangerous to sleep without someone keeping watch.

I think the biggest problem for the unprepared won't be a lack of food but a lack of safe drinking water. People will be trying to drink water from drainage ditches and other unsafe places. Once you get sick and get diarrhea they won't last long. I think most people will die in the first two weeks. I think there will be mass suicides. As well as prepared sex offenders and child molesters. 

Some people in rural areas will have their own wells or they might have flowing springs that produce water. They'll last a lot longer.


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## Balls004

I'd say that you'll most likely see a spike in unarmed break-ins the first week or less. As soon as the breakers in start getting shot, is when you'll start seeing the armed home invasions. Me, I don't discriminate between the two, because I don't have the ability to foresee their intentions. I figure if they want to break their butts in my house, they can break themselves right back out if they're able.


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## Gians

imho I'd worry less about TEOTWAWKI for the Entire US and take care of your security and earthquake(and other disasters) preparedness now, things which are much more likely to actually happen.


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## BillS

There are a lot of variables regarding how long a group of home invaders could last. If 30% of households have guns but only 3% are preppers then they'll have to do a lot of attacks to get enough provisions. If an armed group gets control of a prepper's home where they have a year's supply of food for 4 people then they've bought themselves a lot of time. 12 months of food for 4 people would be 4 months food for 12 people.


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## backlash

3 days.
It will start out slow and then build rapidly.
As soon as people realize they will not survive with what they have and start to get what then need or want.
Most everyone is capable of doing things that would normally be unthinkable.
Killing for food or water will not even get a second thought.
People are only 1 cup of water from turning feral.


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## PeachesBackwards

TheLazyL said:


> I'd guess about one week. Based on my opinion that the unprepared majority can find a week's worth of food either in their own home or by scrounging/looting.
> 
> Then they will start acting like undeserving welfare recipients demanding a share of what you worked hard for and they didn't.


This is exactly what gets me. If I came around my apartment building or my sisters block of houses she lives in and we just said, we'd like everyone to contribute $500 a year each so that they could have food of their choice and water put aside for an entire year in case of disaster, in a central locked location, where they'd be free to use the food anytime for how they wish, 98% of them would scream "you're crazy and get out". These same people would then expect me to give them my "stash" if they needed it and failing that would just rob it from me.


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## PeachesBackwards

hiwall said:


> Time table in exact days is impossible to know. Break-ins would increase from the 'normal' amount immediately to some small extent. Major increase in home break-ins would occur as soon as commercial businesses were emptied. I would think that would be your timeline. You would be relatively safe while the riff-raff concentrated on looting businesses then when that source was depleted you would have to expect them to come knocking on your door.


Yeah you put into better words than I did. I guess the revised question is how long would commercial businesses be emptied after the initial day of "The Disaster" and from there how many days would it take people to break in residences regularly to get the resources they need.


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## PeachesBackwards

*Herein Lies the Problem Of Shooting the Bastards!*



Balls004 said:


> I'd say that you'll most likely see a spike in unarmed break-ins the first week or less. As soon as the breakers in start getting shot, is when you'll start seeing the armed home invasions. Me, I don't discriminate between the two, because I don't have the ability to foresee their intentions. I figure if they want to break their butts in my house, they can break themselves right back out if they're able.


Here is my biggest dilemma and one of the reasons I posted this thread. While I don't ethically or morally have any qualms about hurting/killing someone who attempts to break into my residence, I will think a 1000 times about doing something like this while there is still a law enforcement system in place. Living in the City, albeit a smaller part of LA, I have no doubts that if I did this while there was still law and order, it would cost me a fortune to get a lawyer to avoid being charged with a crime or to clear me of a crime because that unfortunately is how the stupid Politically Correct World Works. At least when I realize, which is why I need to figure when, there is no law and order, I won't hesitate. Mind you, if even today, I was in a do or die situation I wouldn't hesitate but anything else I would because of the legal ramifications even if I'm the victim.


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## PeachesBackwards

backlash said:


> As soon as people realize they will not survive with what they have and start to get what then need or want.
> Most everyone is capable of doing things that would normally be unthinkable.
> Killing for food or water will not even get a second thought.
> People are only 1 cup of water from turning feral.


Exactly my thoughts


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## Balls004

PeachesBackwards said:


> Here is my biggest dilemma and one of the reasons I posted this thread. While I don't ethically or morally have any qualms about hurting/killing someone who attempts to break into my residence, I will think a 1000 times about doing something like this while there is still a law enforcement system in place. Living in the City, albeit a smaller part of LA, I have no doubts that if I did this while there was still law and order, it would cost me a fortune to get a lawyer to avoid being charged with a crime or to clear me of a crime because that unfortunately is how the stupid Politically Correct World Works. At least when I realize, which is why I need to figure when, there is no law and order, I won't hesitate. Mind you, if even today, I was in a do or die situation I wouldn't hesitate but anything else I would because of the legal ramifications even if I'm the victim.


I don't know about Castle Doctrine in your case, but here in Mississippi, they're fair game inside the door threshold. Something for you to investigate, but also consider that even if the law enforcement system is still in place, it probably won't be for very long in the scenario you've proposed. So it's not all that far a leap of the imagination to err on the side of your safety and your family. Besides, if you add in the fact that you are a woman (I'm making a guess here) you generally are going to get the benefit of doubt for your actions, unless some serious evidence suggests otherwise.


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## Marcus

Grocery stores can easily be emptied in a day since they carry, at most, a three day supply. Hardware stores _might_ take a bit longer since most people will take a while to realize their usefulness going forward. Distribution centers will last a bit longer since they carry a lot more food and are relatively unknown to many of the sheeple. People will raid restaurants quickly too since they're used to going there for food. To get an idea on how fast a grocery store can be emptied, look at past hurricane preparations. This will also indicate how fast hardware stores will run out of plywood for securing windows and doors. So to answer your question, it depends on the location and the *perceived threat* to their way of life.

Criminals break in to residences every day right now. When the mask of civilization is removed, these folks will continue unabated. However, the pillage will also likely now include rape and murder since there are few consequences. The rapine will become much more violent as homeowners attempt to protect their assets. This will lead to binary solutions for both the invaders and the homeowners. It will literally become life or death.

Gang activity will grow as desperate people join forces to try and survive. People will do anything just to survive another day if they are hungry enough. The example here is the Nazi concentration camps. Even normal law-abiding citizens will join when they grow desperate enough. Add in the entitlement mentality many folks have, and it is highly likely people will attack those who are better prepared.

I hate to paint a bleak picture, but the unprepared will panic inside of a week. Women will literally sell themselves for food while men will attempt to take it by force. Stealing, even by children, will be the norm.

For all of these reasons, it is why most of us who are trying to prepare live outside of population centers. It is too east to be overwhelmed by a passing horde even if your defense force is 20 or 30 strong. If your defense force is only 1 or 2, you'll have to hide if you can and snipe. Against a sufficiently large force with military training, even this becomes non-survivable since you won't be able to degrade the attacking force fast enough before they find you.


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## ClemKadiddlehopper

Here is one rendition of power out. There are many others. Google the Ontario ice storm of 1998. My area was out for a month. Rural areas are the last to be serviced.

ICE STORM 1998 By Eric Harris

Struck powerless
January's ice storm robbed millions of heat, light and the conceit that natural disasters don't happen here

It was a spectacle of nature's prerogative, an unprecedented combination of meteorological forces acting to levy an extraordinary burden of ice on a landscape accustomed to icy burdens. Persisting for six days over vast tracts of open farmland, conifer-cloaked hillsides, suburban and urban grids, this amorphous pocket of precipitation was dubbed hyperbolically "The Storm of the Millennium." It was, indisputably, the storm of the century.

It provoked a range of reactions and a call to action, created dangerous situations, caused injury and death, and made heroes. It left more than three million people in Eastern Canada and the northeastern United States blacked out, cold, isolated and fearful.

Despair, determination, victimization, dependence, gratitude, ingenuity, achievement, self-reliance, fatigue, compassion, conservation, patience — these were the emotional sinews that bound people together. Aggression, selfishness, greed, for the most part, hibernated.

The rains came, unseasonably, from the deep south, a probable influence of El Niño, that periodic disruption of Pacific Ocean currents. The warm, wet weather reached the St. Lawrence River Valley late on Sunday, January 4, and encountered an east-west front of southbound cold, dry air from northern Quebec. A stalemate ensued, with warm air above and cool air below — a textbook formula for freezing rain: snow from the upper reaches of the warm air turned to rain as it fell, the rain was super-cooled as it fell through the cold air below and froze as it hit cold surfaces. An atmospheric Zamboni, the storm flooded a rink greater than the Great Lakes with more than 80 millimetres of ice rain over six days. A frozen strata thick as pavement covered the country.

Collapse. Tracts of green ash and cedar, white pine and willow splintered violently under loads 30 times their own weight. Waist-thick limbs on century-old heirlooms snapped and snagged wires on city avenues. Poles down outnumbered those still up in some areas. Transmission towers crumpled like exhausted marathon runners near Saint-Hyacinthe, Que., and Cornwall, Ont.

Unfamiliar sounds and sights occurred each day: the glassy crashing of ice falling from trees distant and near; the unceasing rumble of generators reverberating across the countryside; the convoys of hydro, military and phone crews on roadsides like liberation forces; the utter darkness.

The heroes: the Hydro-Québec linemen who risked all by dangling from a helicopter to refit a high-tension cable to a tower; the broadcasters on CBC Radio One who unhaltingly fed the airwaves with reports on damage, repairs, relief and weather; the neighbours who hauled generators house-to-house pumping sumps; the soldiers who carried seniors from frigid residences to shelters; the countless volunteers who fed, bedded and comforted the homeless thousands.

The villains: the man who went to Home Depot for a generator and left with a chain-cutter to obtain one by stealth; the thieves who took generators from houses while people slept, from telephone switchboxes, from railway crossings; the price-gougers.

The victims: 25 who died in Quebec and Ontario in a two-week aftermath, including Roland Parent of Sainte-Angélique, Que., who died of carbon-monoxide poisoning; Ernest Jubien and Ethel Cockell-Jubien of Mont-Royal, Que., who died in a fire caused by a candle; Margaret Heath of Pierrefonds, Que., who died of hypothermia; Noella Cliche of Saint-Martin, Que., who died after being crushed by ice.

The toll was immeasurable. The single-minded Financial Post estimated damage at $500 million and losses from interrupted production at billions. Dairy farmers, apple growers and sugarbush owners struggled to quantify their losses. Speculation swirled about hydro-electric rate increases as the utilities poured manpower and matériel into the fray. Property owners and municipal workers alike braced for a marathon of pruning.

Everyone had defining moments to recall, heart-rending or humanitarian. The view through my window at 6 a.m. on January 8 was an icon of the rural disaster zone. The hydro pole leaned at a 70-degree angle and the ice-encased wires dangled to the ground. Every tree, and there are hundreds, was snapped at the crown, cracked at major limbs or bent over with tips frozen into the shining ground. A 12-metre green ash, the focal point of our front yard, lay cloven down the trunk. Half had fallen toward the road, the other half onto the front deck. That tree was not much taller than I am when Robyn, my wife, and I moved out here to Mountain Township, Ont., in 1987. Now it's gone.

Our 12-day trial by firelight was not life-threatening, but was surely a reminder of the fragility of our nordic existence, of my addiction to electronic gadgetry, and of the labour required to live like a settler.

By the last week of January, some 300 customers in Ontario and 45,000 in Quebec were still powerless. Doug Thompson, mayor of Osgoode Township, Ont., promised not to lift his state of emergency until power was restored to every last house. By February, the ice storm was, in most newscasts, relegated to the end, an afterthought, as newer news — presidential scandals and weak dollars — took the lead.

One prevailing sentiment echoed across the land: a certainty that things will never be the same. Like many, we vowed we will consume less energy and be less reliant on one source. We will be more sociable with neighbours and strangers. And we will be acutely aware that we are as susceptible as the people of the Saguenay, the Red River or anywhere else to the destructive power of nature.

Eric Harris is managing editor of Canadian Geographic.


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## Padre

It doesn't really matter. Truth is the time frame is relative to a lot of different factors and if it happens to you before everyone else the fact that it hasn't become wide spread yet won't help you and your family! 

As a prepper we should be preppared: for home invasions now; for home invasions once the SHTF (be it wide spread or localized); and for home invasions once they become pandemic. The moment you realize that in fact the SHTF you need to start thinking and acting like mad max might come driving down the road. If you don't think you have a good chance of defending your home against home invasion get out, double up with others for mutual defense, or go to a safer or more defensible location.


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## PeachesBackwards

Balls004 said:


> I don't know about Castle Doctrine in your case, but here in Mississippi, they're fair game inside the door threshold. Something for you to investigate, but also consider that even if the law enforcement system is still in place, it probably won't be for very long in the scenario you've proposed. So it's not all that far a leap of the imagination to err on the side of your safety and your family. Besides, if you add in the fact that you are a woman (I'm making a guess here) you generally are going to get the benefit of doubt for your actions, unless some serious evidence suggests otherwise.


LOL I'm a straight male PeachesBackwards was the phone number of a whore house in NYC in the 60s and is easy to remember as a screen name! I like the Castle Doctrine which hasn't been in force in the Cities I've lived in. Like I said the problem for me is knowing that we've gone from SHTF to TEOTWAWKI Time.


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## Tirediron

in a shelter in place situation , a person should have the supplies to build a secondary area to prevent entrance by simply breaking down the main entrance door, this "foyer" could be built from cinderblock and gravel or the like, kind of a kill box for unwanted guests, once the outer door is breached, the breacher is fair game. 

As too the length of time it will take for the invasions to start, as soon as law & order is no longer evident. 

Humans by and large are not that nice or honorable


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## Cotton

You are surrounded by 20 million people. The difference between SHTF and the end the world is irrelevant. If the first happens you'll never hear about the second. I'd suggest a plan to vanish for a few days the moment any disaster strikes. I was out there for the rodney king riots. It only took a few hours and the city stopped for 2 weeks.

Edit... By vanish I don't mean an apartment building or a suburban home. There are places in any city, just think outside the box.


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## PeachesBackwards

*Awesome What a Great Idea!!!! My favorite Reply Ever*



Tirediron said:


> in a shelter in place situation , a person should have the supplies to build a secondary area to prevent entrance by simply breaking down the main entrance door, this "foyer" could be built from cinderblock and gravel or the like, kind of a kill box for unwanted guests, once the outer door is breached, the breacher is fair game.
> 
> As too the length of time it will take for the invasions to start, as soon as law & order is no longer evident.
> 
> Humans by and large are not that nice or honorable


Wow I wish I had the money to hire you and be in charge of my survival! Great genius idea. I never ever would have thought about this. Will definitely try to incorporate this. Thank you again! PS Maybe we can start a company selling kill boxes!!!!


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## jimLE

BillS said:


> Break-ins and home invasions will start once the power has been out for a day. Within 72 hours they will become rampant as people run out of food and water. You have to remember that most people only have a few days worth of food. Water pressure will be lost within 24 hours of a power outage. Most people have more stored food than stored water. There will be more people with guns than people with food although the percentage of armed people will depend on where you live.
> 
> Once the power goes out during an SHTF event I would have someone in the house awake and armed at all times. It will be too dangerous to sleep without someone keeping watch.
> 
> I think the biggest problem for the unprepared won't be a lack of food but a lack of safe drinking water. People will be trying to drink water from drainage ditches and other unsafe places. Once you get sick and get diarrhea they won't last long. I think most people will die in the first two weeks. I think there will be mass suicides. As well as prepared sex offenders and child molesters.
> 
> Some people in rural areas will have their own wells or they might have flowing springs that produce water. They'll last a lot longer.


one thing some,if not most folks fail to realize..is that water treatment plants and water companies have back-up generators.and to me.that means another 4 to 12 weeks of power for them.but thats only if they have the needed fuel on hand..but yet.the water pressure will drop as ppl start stocking up on water..the more ppl that do that,will most and like cause a shut down of water sooner then that..


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## TheLazyL

jimLE said:


> one thing some,if not most folks fail to realize..is that water treatment plants and water companies have back-up generators.and to me.that means another 4 to 12 weeks of power for them.but thats only if they have the needed fuel on hand..but yet.the water pressure will drop as ppl start stocking up on water..the more ppl that do that,will most and like cause a shut down of water sooner then that..


That is case for the small Town I did lived in.

Water plant and wells were backed up by a natural gas fueled generator. As long as the gas line was pressurized the generator would run. Controls were automatic. Water lines would remain pressurized unless too many fire hydrants were left on.

Wastewater treatment plant's generator was diesel. Manual transfer switch. Generator would run 48 hours without a refill.


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## Marcus

jimLE said:


> one thing some,if not most folks fail to realize..is that water treatment plants and water companies have back-up generators.and to me.that means another 4 to 12 weeks of power for them.but thats only if they have the needed fuel on hand..but yet.the water pressure will drop as ppl start stocking up on water..the more ppl that do that,will most and like cause a shut down of water sooner then that..


That's true, Jim, but I don't think fuel for the backup generators will be the limiting factor.

When people aren't being paid, can't find fuel for their vehicles, don't have food, or have to run a gauntlet to get to work, the number of people actually showing up for work will taper off quite quickly. I suspect it will be a bigger issue in larger cities at first due to people not knowing each other, but it will spread even to small towns as food/fuel runs out without any hope of replenishment.

Organizing a small community to ration out scarce resources is possible for a time, but that's really a nonstarter in larger cities primarily due to trust issues. In a small town, people know each other and many will have known each other their whole lives. So there is some trust there.

Neighborhoods within large cities may have some of that trust, but there is no way to extend that trust over a large city. Martial law can be imposed, but that's hardly a trusting environment.


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## jimLE

another thing about a power grid failure,or what ever..is that folks will walk off the job.and take things from the different plants.be it water/power or some other plant.and that includes the fuel thats on hand.


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## readytogo

I would like to know the last time anyone here was in a shtf situation where riots took place and houses where broken into or you were force to show your weapons to a group of would be burglars, it seems to me that we keep going over the same movie all the time and coming out with great movie scripts for Hollywood to produce a apocalyptic movie ,in the few shtf events that I have lived through;flloding,tornado riots and hurricanes I have yet witness a zombie attack of the magnitude spoken here ,not even during the great depression or ww2 ,yes riots and shopping centers have been broken into but those are things that practically happen every day in America today. I for one pray that we never see a apocalyptic event of any magnitude nor like to spend my precious time talking about it, it really makes no logical sense.


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## Balls004

PeachesBackwards said:


> LOL I'm a straight male PeachesBackwards was the phone number of a whore house in NYC in the 60s and is easy to remember as a screen name! I like the Castle Doctrine which hasn't been in force in the Cities I've lived in. Like I said the problem for me is knowing that we've gone from SHTF to TEOTWAWKI Time.


Sorry, but good story on the screen name.

Does it really matter whether or not it's a SHTF or TEOTW as far as your reaction and options? I'm inclined to behave the same either way, and then figure out which way things would ultimately go. Since you are in a city, I'm thinking it will go south far faster than where I'm at.


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## Padre

readytogo said:


> I would like to know the last time anyone here was in a shtf situation where riots took place and houses where broken into or you were force to show your weapons to a group of would be burglars, it seems to me that we keep going over the same movie all the time and coming out with great movie scripts for Hollywood to produce a apocalyptic movie ,in the few shtf events that I have lived through;flloding,tornado riots and hurricanes I have yet witness a zombie attack of the magnitude spoken here ,not even during the great depression or ww2 ,yes riots and shopping centers have been broken into but those are things that practically happen every day in America today. I for one pray that we never see a apocalyptic event of any magnitude nor like to spend my precious time talking about it, it really makes no logical sense.


I have never seen a tornado either....

If you are looking for a SHTF situation where law and order broke down you need only consider Rwanda, Bosnia, or Iraq...is that too distant as if what happens there could not happen here? How about the LA Riots or the DC Riots, the violence after Katrina, or in Fergeson.

The most dangerous threat to human life is other humans, particularly your own government and people without hope! If you don't have time to think about these realities then you are not prepared! The only way to be ready if the unexpected happens is to expect the unexpected. Perhaps you will feel a little silly after the next acute mild SHTF after fortifying your home, loading up your mags, and standing watch....my question is do you think the Chinese store owners who stood on their roafes with rifles in hand during the LA Riots felt stupid when their were the only stores untouched and their families unmolested?


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## Padre

PeachesBackwards said:


> Like I said the problem for me is knowing that we've gone from SHTF to TEOTWAWKI Time.


What material difference does that make? Are you concerned about the legal ramifications of your actions? Assuming you don't desire to become a marauder if you are simply defending your life I think you do what you gotta do...it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6...

Truth be told it's going to be difficult for most people to determine what level of SHTF is occurring without a few weeks or months of perspective. I am of the opinion that you act like it's TEOTWAWKI almost immediately after the SHTF and until you have clarity that it is not in fact TEOTWAWKI! Home invasion, murder, rape, etc. could happen in a mild acute SHTF and you could be "prosecuted" for murder (aka self-defense), weapons violations, or hording even after a real TEOTWAWKI.


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## PeachesBackwards

*Here's What Many Don't Grasp I've Gone Over This To No Avail Before*



Padre said:


> What material difference does that make? Are you concerned about the legal ramifications of your actions? Assuming you don't desire to become a marauder if you are simply defending your life I think you do what you gotta do...it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6...
> 
> Truth be told it's going to be difficult for most people to determine what level of SHTF is occurring without a few weeks or months of perspective. I am of the opinion that you act like it's TEOTWAWKI almost immediately after the SHTF and until you have clarity that it is not in fact TEOTWAWKI! Home invasion, murder, rape, etc. could happen in a mild acute SHTF and you could be "prosecuted" for murder (aka self-defense), weapons violations, or hording even after a real TEOTWAWKI.


Here is unfortunately what many people don't grasp. Having lived a white collar College educated life in large Metropolitan areas, if you have to hire a lawyer it is going to cost you a fortune, repeat a fortune. You will likely be questioned by the Police needing a lawyer with a good chance of being charged any time you use a gun or other weapon even if it is to stop a Home Invasion and/or to to save your life. Victims who choose to defend themselves unfortunately have little rights in todays Politically Correct Climate. You may feel you are perfectly within your rights to kill or maim someone defending your property and life and you may well be but unfortunately it is going to cost you financially big time. Just understand that.

In a SHTF situation, Law Enforcement and the Legal System will eventually return and I'd think twice of what you do to stop a criminal act against you unless its life and death as you will eventually be questioned and charged. In TEOTWAWKI you don't need to worry when you kill or hurt someone trying to hurt you or your property about getting arrested and going to Court because Law Enforcement and the Legal System will no longer exist.


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## hemrides

Based on a couple studies...one was government...I think it will take less then a week. Most people are not prepared for anything like this...I have seen numbers as high as 90% unprepared. Once they realize this is the BIG ONE...they will react quickly and violently. The bigger concern is who will you react...are you willing to kill for your family...would any of us know how bad it really is...etc. I pray this day never comes...


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## Balls004

PeachesBackwards said:


> Here is unfortunately what many people don't grasp. Having lived a white collar College educated life in large Metropolitan areas, if you have to hire a lawyer it is going to cost you a fortune, repeat a fortune. You will likely be questioned by the Police needing a lawyer with a good chance of being charged any time you use a gun or other weapon even if it is to stop a Home Invasion and/or to to save your life. Victims who choose to defend themselves unfortunately have little rights in todays Politically Correct Climate. You may feel you are perfectly within your rights to kill or maim someone defending your property and life and you may well be but unfortunately it is going to cost you financially big time. Just understand that.
> 
> In a SHTF situation, Law Enforcement and the Legal System will eventually return and I'd think twice of what you do to stop a criminal act against you unless its life and death as you will eventually be questioned and charged. In TEOTWAWKI you don't need to worry when you kill or hurt someone trying to hurt you or your property about getting arrested and going to Court because Law Enforcement and the Legal System will no longer exist.


I fully grasp the concept that I might be charged as well as you do, and that it might result in some expensive legal bills at the least, or jail time at the worst. You also have to realize though, that even if it is a SHTF situation (as well there is a potential restoration of peace and law) and you feel that you have to use deadly force to protect yourself and your family, that those concerns take a backseat to providing protection to yourself and your family. It is a daily double edged sword.

It doesn't take any big event to be in that situation, just a daily occurrence in life to have that experience. But the threat of any sort of legal jeopardy in relation to personal protection (not property) is insignificant in my view, no matter the circumstances.


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## Tweto

PeachesBackwards said:


> Here is unfortunately what many people don't grasp. Having lived a white collar College educated life in large Metropolitan areas, if you have to hire a lawyer it is going to cost you a fortune, repeat a fortune. You will likely be questioned by the Police needing a lawyer with a good chance of being charged any time you use a gun or other weapon even if it is to stop a Home Invasion and/or to to save your life. Victims who choose to defend themselves unfortunately have little rights in todays Politically Correct Climate. You may feel you are perfectly within your rights to kill or maim someone defending your property and life and you may well be but unfortunately it is going to cost you financially big time. Just understand that.
> 
> In a SHTF situation, Law Enforcement and the Legal System will eventually return and I'd think twice of what you do to stop a criminal act against you unless its life and death as you will eventually be questioned and charged. In TEOTWAWKI you don't need to worry when you kill or hurt someone trying to hurt you or your property about getting arrested and going to Court because Law Enforcement and the Legal System will no longer exist.


In the period before official law enforcement, justice was still delivered. Communities, ranchers, farmers, etc. have a history in this country of establishing their own law and dealing with suspected criminals very quickly.

Even in Nebraska history in the late 1800's this was still the only method of maintaining order and a fear of disturbing the peace. Modern man has gotten spoiled by civilized law enforcement.

After TEOTWAWKI will have a period of lawlessness but very quickly people will ban together to delivery shift justice. In the inner cities it will be the gangs, in the suburbs it will be the former police and military forming their own gangs. In the country it will be the volunteer firemen backed by farmers and ranchers.


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## ram91648

ZoomZoom said:


> I think a lot of it would be based on where you live.
> 
> Urban areas would get hit pretty quickly. I'd think a matter of days. It would be homes as well as businesses. There would probably be violence within days.
> 
> Suburbanites have the means to store more more provisions compared to urban apartment living. They could probably last a couple weeks but they have a problem. Urban residents will be out of necessities and many will start branching out. Mostly on foot or other slow transportation means. They'll then encounter the inner then outer suburbs looking for their next meal. Unfortunately (and depending on where you live), the people in the suburbs may be more armed. Now there's battles going on in those areas.
> 
> Rural folk are generally more prepared. There may be small amounts of B&E's and such from locals but the masses from the urban and suburban areas will eventually make it out their way. Depending on topography, roads and such, defensive actions can be taken to limit access. (e.g. put heavy equipment across roads). Open areas will allow monitoring of anyone approaching. Dogs as early warning systems. Multiple buildings (e.g. barns, silos...) to take vantage points. These areas are therefore hardened and defended a bit more than urban/suburban areas and would be much harder to attack.


One thing that has been left out of this theoretical equation..... "IF" there is and EMP and "IF" you are fortunate enough to already be out of the cities and "IF" the EMP scenario is as many have described then you would be in pretty good shape. The reason is that "IF" the EMP takes out most if not all motor vehicles, it will take quite some time before the aggressors, 1) realize that there are many potential resources in the country and 2) for those same potential aggressors to find a way to get to the country. The next hurdle for them to overcome is the very real possibility that they will run into some stiff resistance from those country wise folks "IF" and "WHEN" they figure out how to get there. Yes, I think it will take a bit of time, if ever, for them to get to the folks in the country. That's why I'm living in the boonies. I don't have to follow the three rules in a major national emergency. They are 1) Get out of the cities 2) Get out of the cities and 3) Get out of the cities. God bless....


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## hiwall

I assume everyone here does realize that readytogo is correct about SHTF. There is no way to figure the odds of it happening because it has never happened in the past so we have nothing to look back on. Of course it Could happen but the likelihood of WROL in the USA is very very very slim. 
Fine to discuss it as a possible scenario but I hope no one here is totally planning on it.


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## Marcus

readytogo said:


> I would like to know the last time anyone here was in a shtf situation where riots took place and houses where broken into or you were force to show your weapons to a group of would be burglars, it seems to me that we keep going over the same movie all the time and coming out with great movie scripts for Hollywood to produce a apocalyptic movie ,in the few shtf events that I have lived through;flloding,tornado riots and hurricanes I have yet witness a zombie attack of the magnitude spoken here ,not even during the great depression or ww2 ,yes riots and shopping centers have been broken into but those are things that practically happen every day in America today. I for one pray that we never see a apocalyptic event of any magnitude nor like to spend my precious time talking about it, it really makes no logical sense.


Rodney King riots in Vegas. Metro closed off a whole section of the city.

Last time I had to show weapons: Two teenagers picked the wrong gate to go parking in. The owners had asked us to watch their place while they were out of town. 30 years or so ago.

Other time: Escaped mental patient saw me pull into our place and followed me. She had walked at least 30 miles searching for her sister. She never even knew I was there, and I watched her until the deputy arrived.

IMHO the issue is not can you survive until help arrives which is what happens in a normal localized disaster. The issue is rather what will people do when they recognize there will be no help coming and they're hungry or thirsty. Will they pitch in and help one another or will the wheels come off? In smaller towns, I think you'll see people pitch in. In large cities, a substantial number will look out for number 1.

Hiwall is correct that it hasn't really happened here on a large scale. But it has happened in other countries with dire consequences.


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## Grimm

PeachesBackwards said:


> Here is unfortunately what many people don't grasp. Having lived a white collar College educated life in large Metropolitan areas, if you have to hire a lawyer it is going to cost you a fortune, repeat a fortune. You will likely be questioned by the Police needing a lawyer with a good chance of being charged any time you use a gun or other weapon even if it is to stop a Home Invasion and/or to to save your life. Victims who choose to defend themselves unfortunately have little rights in todays Politically Correct Climate. You may feel you are perfectly within your rights to kill or maim someone defending your property and life and you may well be but unfortunately it is going to cost you financially big time. Just understand that.
> 
> In a SHTF situation, Law Enforcement and the Legal System will eventually return and I'd think twice of what you do to stop a criminal act against you unless its life and death as you will eventually be questioned and charged. In TEOTWAWKI you don't need to worry when you kill or hurt someone trying to hurt you or your property about getting arrested and going to Court because Law Enforcement and the Legal System will no longer exist.


I think you are 100% wrong on all of this.

About 9 years ago I was arrested for assault with a deadly weapon in Los Angeles. I spent the night in jail and was released on bail the next morning. I was not charged.

The truth behind why I was arrested was I was attacked in my own home. I fought back both biting my attacker and hitting him with a 4 cell Mag-lite in the head and back. He had purple bite marks in his neck, shoulders and face. There was a cartoonish lump on his forehead and he needed stitches for the gashes on his head from the blows.

I came out of the attack with a few bald spots where my hair had been pulled out and badly bruised thighs and arms. I did get hit in the head with the Mag-lite at one point but I came out mostly unharmed.

I was arrested because my attacker was the one who called the police and filed a complaint. In the end the DA decided if he pressed charges on me he would have to press charges against my attacker for his crimes.

No, I did not have a lawyer. I was just within my rights.


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## Padre

hiwall said:


> I assume everyone here does realize that readytogo is correct about SHTF. There is no way to figure the odds of it happening because it has never happened in the past so we have nothing to look back on. Of course it Could happen but the likelihood of WROL in the USA is very very very slim.
> Fine to discuss it as a possible scenario but I hope no one here is totally planning on it.


Totally planing on it....like holding my breath until it happens? No. Totally planning for it..like having a realistic comprehensive plan to cope with this scenario? I would hope most of us are planning for it. The likelihood of WROL is really neither here nor there, any time someone chooses to act outside the law they create a micro WROL event during which the fact that their are police officers sitting at a police station eating donuts is inmaterial. In such an event you do, or die! All WROL designates is that lawlessness has become rampant for and extended length of time. I would argue that a prepared person ought to always live life as if in the midst of a WROL. The only difference being that it is impolite, and often illegal, to let other people see that you are ready for a WROL before a WROL, because doing so might make them upset about their own unpreparedness!


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## sears7007

interesting question .............however more important question is how long can you defend your home ??? have you thought about approaches to your home if there are only 2 of you --you could be attacked from 4 directions......do you have windows or doors on all 4 sides of your home ? In reality most of don't / can't escape to a bugout location, unless you can band together with other neighbors it would be almost impossible to defend your home.


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## PeachesBackwards

Grimm said:


> I think you are 100% wrong on all of this.
> 
> About 9 years ago I was arrested for assault with a deadly weapon in Los Angeles. I spent the night in jail and was released on bail the next morning. I was not charged.
> 
> The truth behind why I was arrested was I was attacked in my own home. I fought back both biting my attacker and hitting him with a 4 cell Mag-lite in the head and back. He had purple bite marks in his neck, shoulders and face. There was a cartoonish lump on his forehead and he needed stitches for the gashes on his head from the blows.
> 
> I came out of the attack with a few bald spots where my hair had been pulled out and badly bruised thighs and arms. I did get hit in the head with the Mag-lite at one point but I came out mostly unharmed.
> 
> I was arrested because my attacker was the one who called the police and filed a complaint. In the end the DA decided if he pressed charges on me he would have to press charges against my attacker for his crimes.
> 
> No, I did not have a lawyer. I was just within my rights.


You were exceptionally lucky, the exception of the rule. Police are under pressure to make arrests and the DA to convict and whether you are innocent or not, justified or not, if you don't have a good lawyer with you, you are going to be screwed. *If you want to take that chance, fine, I don't unless its a life or death situation or TEOTWAWKI in which I would have zero qualms about shooting anyone dead who broke into my house.* As I said if its just SHTF like Rodney King Riots and Katrina, I would do as little as possible because eventually you will be questioned and possibly charged and held for trial.


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## Padre

PeachesBackwards said:


> You were exceptionally lucky, the exception of the rule. Police are under pressure to make arrests and the DA to convict and whether you are innocent or not, justified or not, if you don't have a good lawyer with you, you are going to be screwed. *If you want to take that chance, fine, I don't unless its a life or death situation or TEOTWAWKI in which I would have zero qualms about shooting anyone dead who broke into my house.* As I said if its just SHTF like Rodney King Riots and Katrina, I would do as little as possible because eventually you will be questioned and possibly charged and held for trial.


Peaches, we should note that there are 50 states with 50 different sets of laws. Two dozen of these states have Castle laws which is a positive defense to violence committed against home invaders. Other states even have stand your ground laws allowing the lethal use of force outside your house whenever you reasonably fear for your life. We should note that some states theoretically acknowledge these principles in common law but practically do not, like my own, but this exception notwithstanding those states with positive law defending self-defense are pretty safe to use it in. Even in the Treyvon case in Florida, with HUGE amounts of political pressure the law was pretty clear and Zimmerman was aquitted.

I do agree with you that in general SHTF or not you want to keep a low profile. Anyone who is thinking of walking around shooting people post SHTF, all zombieland like, is going to get themselves killed, or prosecuted.

Be it at SHTF or TEOTWAWKI if someone breaks down your door you have two choices fight or flight (hopefully we can agree that surrendering is a really bad third option that should be off the table!!!). The first problem is by fleeing there is no grantee you won't still be forced to fight, either your home invaders or othees on the streets if choas breaks out, but now from a position not of your own choosing. If you flee and it SEEMS LIKE a moderate acute SHTF lasting say a month, or even a mild widespread SHTF which could last week's like some multi-regional storms do, fleeing means that you we will be without your prepps perhaps for a month, dependant on the charity of others or FEMA, and in a REALLY BAD possition if it turns out that it really is a TEOTWAWKI!

So like I said I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. We have a right to a jury trial and even if prosecutors have legal precedent to charge you juries always have the right to nullify! If you tell the a good story that they can relate to you might just get off, even if you were prosecuted...and if not, you and your family are alive!


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## PeachesBackwards

Padre said:


> Peaches, we should note that there are 50 states with 50 different sets of laws. Two dozen of these states have Castle laws which is a positive defense to violence committed against home invaders. Other states even have stand your ground laws allowing the lethal use of force outside your house whenever you reasonably fear for your life. We should note that some states theoretically acknowledge these principles in common law but practically do not, like my own, but this exception notwithstanding those states with positive law defending self-defense are pretty safe to use it in. Even in the Treyvon case in Florida, with HUGE amounts of political pressure the law was pretty clear and Zimmerman was aquitted.
> 
> I do agree with you that in general SHTF or not you want to keep a low profile. Anyone who is thinking of walking around shooting people post SHTF, all zombieland like, is going to get themselves killed, or prosecuted.
> 
> Be it at SHTF or TEOTWAWKI if someone breaks down your door you have two choices fight or flight (hopefully we can agree that surrendering is a really bad third option that should be off the table!!!). The first problem is by fleeing there is no grantee you won't still be forced to fight, either your home invaders or othees on the streets if choas breaks out, but now from a position not of your own choosing. If you flee and it SEEMS LIKE a moderate acute SHTF lasting say a month, or even a mild widespread SHTF which could last week's like some multi-regional storms do, fleeing means that you we will be without your prepps perhaps for a month, dependant on the charity of others or FEMA, and in a REALLY BAD possition if it turns out that it really is a TEOTWAWKI!
> 
> So like I said I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. We have a right to a jury trial and even if prosecutors have legal precedent to charge you juries always have the right to nullify! If you tell the a good story that they can relate to you might just get off, even if you were prosecuted...and if not, you and your family are alive!


By my logic even if the Castle Laws exist in certain states and I was in one of those States and I killed/injured someone breaking into my residence, I'd still have to pay for a good lawyer which would cost me a fortune so I wouldn't be railroaded into prison. *Perfect example, a black teenager breaks into your residence in a Castle Law state and the Police/Justice System is under pressure to arrest/charge you because you are white. Bottom line is without a good lawyer I am not going to take my chances even though legally I am in the right.* Note, of course if it was a do or die situation I wouldn't think twice, but if it was TEOTWAWKI, I'd shoot the second someone uninvited came into my residence. *Obviously I have no faith in the Legal System and would not take a chance in ever communicating no matter how innocent I was with law enforcement without a good lawyer present.*


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## TheLazyL

Padre said:


> ... We have a right to a jury trial and even if prosecutors have legal precedent to charge you juries always have the right to nullify! If you tell the a good story that they can relate to you might just get off, even if you were prosecuted...and if not, you and your family are alive!


In theory I'll agree with you.

When a defendant is tried in the media based on what will sell the news that day.

When the Mayor pressures his appointed Head of Law Enforcement to wrap this case up and get it out of the public's eye ASAP.

When a Prosecutor is running for reelection or higher office and is subject to public (based on the media reporting) to hang the defendant.

When the Jury doesn't know who to believe (you, Prosecutor or the media) so they compromise and find you guilty on only half the charges.

When the Federal government disagrees with the Juries acquittal and runs you thru the wringer again.

When between the expense of bonding out of jail and hiring a Attorney your cash reserves are gone.

When your Employer regretfully informs you that you have missed too many workdays, your position is eliminated, you're unemployed.

When your children are bullied in school because their dad is a murderer and the school Administration unofficially agrees.

When your wife can't cope living in the same house that all of that carnage occurred in, loosing the house to the Bank anyway, added expense of relocating and downsizing.

When fighting the bureaucracy all over again trying to get your firearms back that were confiscated as potential evidence.

When your credit rating is now in the toilet.

When the only place you can now afford to live is in the shady part of town. You go to purchase a gun for protection (again), there is some mistake and the Fed background check denies your purchase.

If the powers to be can't convict a ******* that clings to guns and religion plus a supporter of the U.S. Constitution, they will squash you any other way they can.

When your children are out of court mandate consulting and you are just getting your head back above water, the IRS letter arrives scheduling a audit.


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## TheLazyL

If you have to defend yourself remember to, SHUTUP!

1. Be the first one to call 911. 
2. Have your weapon out of site before police arrive.
3. Officer. There is the person(s) that tried to kill me.
4. Officer. There is the evidence.
5. Officer. There is the witnesses.
6. Officer. I am too traumatized right now, I'll will cooperate with your investigation as soon as I talk to my Attorney.
7. SHUTUP!


Why not just give the Police a full statement and be done with it? You just went thru a life changing event. Are you absolutely sure you only shot 2 or 3 times? Most will fire a gun until empty without realizing it. Prosecutor (and later if you face a civil suit from the Deceased family $$$) will look for any conflicts between your statement and the "evidence". Was you lying when you gave the statement or are you lying now? You were confused at the time? Then how can we believe you when you claim the Deceased threaten you? See where I'm going with this?


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## tsrwivey

PeachesBackwards said:


> By my logic even if the Castle Laws exist in certain states and I was in one of those States and I killed/injured someone breaking into my residence, I'd still have to pay for a good lawyer which would cost me a fortune so I wouldn't be railroaded into prison[/B]


I realize the culture in LA is different but not everywhere do people think like they do in Commiefornia. We've had several instances around here & in other areas of the country where people shot & killed someone during a break in, charges were never even filed. I'm not sure what a lawyer's going to do when you're not even being accused of breaking the law. :dunno: Personally, I think if you own a gun you should already know what to say & what not to say if/when the time comes.

I'm not big on calling the police. In my experience, they've not been able to solve the problem &/or get there waaayyyy too late. We prepare to handle our own problems, not depend on someone else to come save us. If those who live in Miami & LA or wherever choose to do otherwise, it's no skin off my hide.


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## Tweto

PeachesBackwards said:


> By my logic even if the Castle Laws exist in certain states and I was in one of those States and I killed/injured someone breaking into my residence, I'd still have to pay for a good lawyer which would cost me a fortune so I wouldn't be railroaded into prison. *Perfect example, a black teenager breaks into your residence in a Castle Law state and the Police/Justice System is under pressure to arrest/charge you because you are white. Bottom line is without a good lawyer I am not going to take my chances even though legally I am in the right.* Note, of course if it was a do or die situation I wouldn't think twice, but if it was TEOTWAWKI, I'd shoot the second someone uninvited came into my residence. *Obviously I have no faith in the Legal System and would not take a chance in every communicating no matter how innocent I was with law enforcement without a good lawyer present.*


Just a few months ago an elderly man was watching TV when two teenagers broke through his front door. The man shot and killed both. The next day the prosecuting attorney dropped all charges.

A women I used to work with stabbed a man in the hand when he tried to climb through her window, he took off running. Nothing happened to her.

Neither of these people had lawyers. If I was involved I would have an attorney for sure. If you live in a state that is still run by common sense governments I would not worry.

If I lived in Baltimore, I would shoot and kill the suspects that broke into my house but I would not report it to the police. Clean up the mess and dump the bodies in a dumpster when no one is watching.


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## Grimm

Tweto said:


> Just a few months ago an elderly man was watching TV when two teenagers broke through his front door. The man shot and killed both. The next day the prosecuting attorney dropped all charges.
> 
> A women I used to work with stabbed a man in the hand when he tried to climb through her window, he took off running. Nothing happened to her.
> 
> Neither of these people had lawyers. If I was involved I would have an attorney for sure. If you live in a state that is still run by common sense governments I would not worry.
> 
> If I lived in Baltimore, I would shoot and kill the suspects that broke into my house but I would not report it to the police. Clean up the mess and dump the bodies in a dumpster when no one is watching.


Or have a bunch of pigs that you starve a bit.

Or in the words of Bricktop from Snatch...


> Brick Top: You're always gonna have problems lifting a body in one piece. Apparently the best thing to do is cut up a corpse into six pieces and pile it all together.
> 
> Sol: Would someone mind telling me, who are you?
> 
> Brick Top: And when you got your six pieces, you gotta get rid of them, because it's no good leaving it in the deep freeze for your mum to discover, now is it? Then I hear the best thing to do is feed them to pigs. You got to starve the pigs for a few days, then the sight of a chopped-up body will look like curry to a pisshead. You gotta shave the heads of your victims, and pull the teeth out for the sake of the piggies' digestion. You could do this afterwards, of course, but you don't want to go sievin' through pig shit, now do you? They will go through bone like butter. You need at least sixteen pigs to finish the job in one sitting, so be wary of any man who keeps a pig farm. They will go through a body that weighs 200 pounds in about eight minutes. That means that a single pig can consume two pounds of uncooked flesh every minute. Hence the expression, "as greedy as a pig".


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## PeachesBackwards

tsrwivey said:


> I realize the culture in LA is different but not everywhere do people think like they do in Commiefornia. We've had several instances around here & in other areas of the country where people shot & killed someone during a break in, charges were never even filed. I'm not sure what a lawyer's going to do when you're not even being accused of breaking the law. :dunno: Personally, I think if you own a gun you should already know what to say & what not to say if/when the time comes.
> 
> I'm not big on calling the police. In my experience, they've not been able to solve the problem &/or get there waaayyyy too late. We prepare to handle our own problems, not depend on someone else to come save us. If those who live in Miami & LA or wherever choose to do otherwise, it's no skin off my hide.


What a lawyer will do, I recommend you watch Dateline to get the gist, is to: 1. Prevent you from saying anything no matter how innocent you are which the police and prosecutors can twist and use against you, 2. Prevent the police from trying to trick you, badger you, lie to you, etc.


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## Marcus

There is gun owner insurance if you're that afraid of the consequences of legally shooting a criminal.


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## PeachesBackwards

Marcus said:


> There is gun owner insurance if you're that afraid of the consequences of legally shooting a criminal.


Seriously? Never heard of this before but I will research. Right now I admit I don't own a gun for this kind of reason.


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## hiwall

> Right now I admit I don't own a gun for this kind of reason.


Gun, sword, knife, baseball bat, crow bar are all the same if you attack someone with it. They are all 'deadly weapons'.


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## CrackbottomLouis

PeachesBackwards said:


> Seriously? Never heard of this before but I will research. Right now I admit I don't own a gun for this kind of reason.


You don't own a gun because you are afraid of the legal system that is supposed to guarantee you that right and support your ability to defend your life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness? Wow. I would reevaluate that position. When we make peace with living in fear we've lost. Grow a pair and live like you mean it.


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## tsrwivey

PeachesBackwards said:


> What a lawyer will do, I recommend you watch Dateline to get the gist, is to: 1. Prevent you from saying anything no matter how innocent you are which the police and prosecutors can twist and use against you, 2. Prevent the police from trying to trick you, badger you, lie to you, etc.


If the police or prosecutor tried that in these parts, they'd be tarred, feathered, & booted out of town by angry hoards of ******** with guns & pocket Constitutions. Local government is under no delusions as to what their boundaries are around here. Location is everything.


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## Grimm

tsrwivey said:


> If the police or prosecutor tried that in these parts, they'd be tarred, feathered, & booted out of town by angry hoards of ******** with guns & pocket Constitutions. Local government is under no delusions as to what their boundaries are around here. Location is everything.


Quoted for truth.

Just another reason I want out of this liberal hellhole.


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## alwaysready

Grimm said:


> Quoted for truth.
> 
> Just another reason I want out of this liberal hellhole.


You and me both.


----------



## PeachesBackwards

*Growing a Pair is Over Rated Compared to Using Your Head in Making Decisions*



CrackbottomLouis said:


> You don't own a gun because you are afraid of the legal system that is supposed to guarantee you that right and support your ability to defend your life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness? Wow. I would reevaluate that position. When we make peace with living in fear we've lost. Grow a pair and live like you mean it.


For me personally, growing a pair is overrated. When I've acted and made decisions "with a pair" most of them turned out to make the result worse not better and when I've used my head instead to make decisions, the results were a lot better for me. Each to their own.

In my case, I know myself and every once in a while I get temporarily surprised and angered at something someone does and I just don't want to have a gun around if I've lost it and then become someones bitch in prison. Obviously if its TEOTWAWKI I'd want guns, rifles, etc. around and my plan right now is to eventually join forces when TEOTWAWKI happens with people who have all that in return for some of my food, etc.

Sometimes where you live predicates your lifestyle. For myself in the City, I found that I can get by fine without a gun if I follow certain precautions like: 1. Not getting into fights 2. Not getting into confrontations, 3. Avoiding low lives and questionable and shady people, 4. Not going to crime or minority areas, 5. Not going out late at night, 6. Keeping doors locked, 7. Not making enemies, 8. Not flaunting what I own, etc.


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## Tweto

Sometimes where you live predicates your lifestyle. For myself in the City, I found that I can get by fine without a gun if I follow certain precautions like: 1. Not getting into fights 2. Not getting into confrontations, 3. Avoiding low lives and questionable and shady people, 4. Not going to crime or minority areas, 5. Not going out late at night, 6. Keeping doors locked, 7. Not making enemies, 8. Not flaunting what I own, etc. 

What you are suggesting above may help in High School, but the profile of crime has gotten much more violent over the past decade. I'm always reading about home invasions where the home owners are beat or killed and the women raped just because they live there. Or the students in the community college that are killed just because they were there. Four people were killed in Omaha last year by the same guy that was high on meth. The first one was a women that was stopped behind a car at a stop sign when the guy got out of his car, walked back to her car and shot her in the face with a 12 gauge shot gun. The thug went on to kill 3 more that day.

Most of the murders that I know of were just innocent bystanders.

Nothing that you are doing will keep you from being killed if some drugged out mentally ill person wants you dead. I have known completely wacked out people that would start a fight with you for even being there.

Good luck trying to talk your way out of your own murder. Welcome to the world of natural born victims.


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## Cotton

PeachesBackwards said:


> Obviously if its TEOTWAWKI I'd want guns, rifles, etc. around and my plan right now is to eventually join forces when TEOTWAWKI happens with people who have all that in return for some of my food, etc.


Going unarmed into a TEOTWAWKI situation? If you come across a heavily armed group and all you can offer is food? They might keep you around to carry the food for a while if you are lucky... More than likely they'll just kill you and take it.

I'm sorry that isn't a plan, that's a death wish, imho. Just having a stash of food in a major earthquake might get you killed, especially in LA.


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## hiwall

Peaches it sounds to me like your first order of business is to learn personal control.
Once that is mastered then start your preps.
All personal possessions would be meaningless if they can not be protected. And having a year's worth of food and water would not mean much if you got killed the first day of end times.


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## Grimm

In all honesty I have a strong feeling that Peaches is not who he claims to be and not where he says he is.

If you are truly of the prepper mindset you wouldn't fight the fact you'd NEED a weapon to protect yourself. Even at the most mundane times that weapon will give you peace of mind to a degree.

Also, only a teenage boy (or TROLL) would argue the fact he doesn't trust himself with a gun.

Los Angeles is not the kind of city you can play the "don't make eye contact" game and survive for long. I have worked in Downtown as has K. I lived in the SFV. The nice part. But anywhere in LA county you will encounter criminals, homeless and possible threats to your personal safety. You have to be able to protect yourself at all costs!


----------



## PeachesBackwards

Grimm said:


> In all honesty I have a strong feeling that Peaches is not who he claims to be and not where he says he is.
> 
> If you are truly of the prepper mindset you wouldn't fight the fact you'd NEED a weapon to protect yourself. Even at the most mundane times that weapon will give you peace of mind to a degree.
> 
> Also, only a teenage boy (or TROLL) would argue the fact he doesn't trust himself with a gun.
> 
> Los Angeles is not the kind of city you can play the "don't make eye contact" game and survive for long. I have worked in Downtown as has K. I lived in the SFV. The nice part. But anywhere in LA county you will encounter criminals, homeless and possible threats to your personal safety. You have to be able to protect yourself at all costs!


vract:vract:vract:vract:vract:vract:vract:vract:vract:vract:vract:vract:


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## PeachesBackwards

vract:vract:vract:vract:vract:vract:vract:vract:vract:vract:vract:vract:vract:vract:vract:


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## ras1219como

Grimm said:


> In all honesty I have a strong feeling that Peaches is not who he claims to be and not where he says he is.
> 
> If you are truly of the prepper mindset you wouldn't fight the fact you'd NEED a weapon to protect yourself. Even at the most mundane times that weapon will give you peace of mind to a degree.
> 
> Also, only a teenage boy (or TROLL) would argue the fact he doesn't trust himself with a gun.
> 
> Los Angeles is not the kind of city you can play the "don't make eye contact" game and survive for long. I have worked in Downtown as has K. I lived in the SFV. The nice part. But anywhere in LA county you will encounter criminals, homeless and possible threats to your personal safety. You have to be able to protect yourself at all costs!


Grimm you've said what I've been thinking for a week now! I'm quite certain that peaches is either a troll who takes delight in creating asinine threads or a teenager pretending to be an adult.


----------



## Tweto

ras1219como said:


> Grimm you've said what I've been thinking for a week now! I'm quite certain that peaches is either a troll who takes delight in creating asinine threads or a teenager pretending to be an adult.


If you take his post name PeachesBackwords and reverse it to Backwards Peaches it's the name of a video game. That would be the first clue!


----------



## Balls004

PeachesBackwards said:


> In my case, I know myself and every once in a while I get temporarily surprised and angered at something someone does and I just don't want to have a gun around if I've lost it and then become someones bitch in prison. Obviously if its TEOTWAWKI I'd want guns, rifles, etc. around and my plan right now is to eventually join forces when TEOTWAWKI happens with people who have all that in return for some of my food, etc.


That doesn't strike me as a particularly sound plan on the whole. First, as some one pointed out previously, you should already have the self control needed to know when the time is to use deadly force in any situation. Second, how do you plan to be proficient in the use of firearms if you don't own one? Going to a range every now and then, shooting rental guns isn't going to give anyone the experience they need to reliably use firearms in a defensive or even offensive role.


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## Balls004

hiwall said:


> Gun, sword, knife, baseball bat, crow bar are all the same if you attack someone with it. They are all 'deadly weapons'.


Know what everyone of these have in common other than being used as a deadly weapon?

They aren't deadly without human interaction. They will just sit there and do nothing if left alone. In fact, they really are not the weapon, they are a tool. It's our responsibility to use tools correctly.


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## CrackbottomLouis

Alright Peaches, 

The point I was trying to make seems to have been missed. If you feel that you are not responsible enough to own a firearm I don't know what I can tell you but I'll give it a go for your own good and the good of those around you.

Right now our country and way of life is being threatened. The single biggest threat in my opinion is a weak willed, apethetic, morally compromised populace. Most of our other threats would not gain traction if it weren't for that. These people are quickly out numbering the morally sound populace that actually contain a backbone. We all get to decide which camp to be in. Some preppers see their comfortable way of life under future threat and in order to not change their comfort level they store extra food and water and snivel gear with the end goal being coming out of their hole after said crisis and resuming their comfortable lifestyle. This is fine for those that are preparing for short term disruptions to our modern way of life. Then there are preppers that see a major shift to our modern way of life on the horizon. I fall into that camp because I have studied history enough to know that our modern way of life with wealth and liberties for the common man has been a short blip in a sea of tyranny and discomfort and believe that those with power will always seek and take power not denied them by a forceful population. 

Continued in next post.....


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

Now, in order to prevent that, all of those with a backbone have to be independent enough of the current system to be free to insist upon our liberty and wealth. If we are dependent we are not free. In comes prepping and homesteading as a way to lessen our dependence on the powers that be so we are not beholden to their ideas for how our lives are lived. Because those with a backbone are so outnumbered (in my opinion) we have a snowballs chance in hell of avoiding a coming reset of our current reality into something I consider less desirable. The only way I see to avoid an undesirable outcome is if enough people with a backbone survive the reset to affect change back to a reality of liberty and wealth for the common man on the other side. 

So when I say to grow a pair and live like you mean it I'm asking you what kind of person do you want to be. Do you wish to be a sheep that is herded and used for wool and meat? I think not as you are on this site. Do you wish to be a mouse that has a comfortable hole with food for winter constantly afraid of being found dug up and eaten? This makes you useless and in my opinion it's a pathetic state of affairs.

Or, do you want to be a person that will survive and thrive? An independent person that has the ability and backbone to insist on his or her place in the world? A person the rest of us can count on to speak up and out and defend our collective liberty and wealth in the face of opposition and strife? 

If your not gonna be that kind of person I have no further use for you. Stand up and be a person of consequence or crawl in your hole with rice and beans and cease to bother the rest of us. Live like you mean it. Get in shape. Learn to defend yourself. Learn and utilize skills that make you a threat because of the independence they give you. Study the philosophies our way of life was founded upon and speak out to those that will listen. Enjoy and practice the liberties given to you by God not other men. Live up to the responsibility of freedom by becoming a person that earns it. We all have the freedom to choose and the inability to avoid making a choice. I hope you make yourself into a person we can all count on in the days to come.


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## Grimm

ras1219como said:


> Grimm you've said what I've been thinking for a week now! I'm quite certain that peaches is either a troll who takes delight in creating asinine threads or a teenager pretending to be an adult.


I knew from day one there was something I didn't like about that asshat.

BTW for those that are not online as late as I am Peaches' response to me calling him out was an admission to being a teen boy and a trolling one at that. It seems that he edited his posts after I logged off for the night.


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## fteter

From my perspective, it doesn't really matter who Peaches is or what he/she is attempting to accomplish. The important thing here...which makes me grateful to be associated with this group...is the response to the ideas Peaches put out there. Respect for firearms as a tool; self-control; willingness to defend liberty; determination to survive and thrive in the face of challenging circumstances. Thank you all for inspiring growth in my own perspective with your responses.


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## VoorTrekker

Pearl Harbor. People in the Phillipines knew they were in trouble when the Imperial Japanese military landed and occupied their islands. The day before, no one had a clue.

Same for people in France in May 1940. 

From a SHTF to TETWAWKI/WROL will be a matter of time and subtle, but constantly changing in the status quo of social behavior and the flow of commerce. No one will see it coming. There are no benchmark indicators to take queue, nor are there trends to follow. We will know it after it has manifested to status quo.

Are trucks running freight? Are railroads moving freight? Are airlines flying aircraft? 

If no and the lights are out, it would be safe to assume TEOTWAWKI. Especially if all civilian communications are inoperable. When the cities are burning and no sirens are heard, when injured people are not being rescued by FD and EMT's then one is probably in a TEOTWAWKI situation. 

Regardless of whether Peaches is a troll or a teenager *******, the question is a good one to ponder and the discussions about it have been enlightening. All except for the guns and protection threads.


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## mojo4

If anyone says they don't trust themselves with a gun then please don't get one. And if your first mental thought is concern for future litigation when you find people in your home with wicked intent then there is no advice to give to comfort the soul. Yep grimm...... methinks you are correct.


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## Wanderer0101

PeachesBackwards said:


> Ultimate Question How Long Will It Take For Regular Home Invasions Once TEOTWAWKI starts for the Entire US, your rough guesses, serious please,and why. Let me clarify before you begin to answer. I'm not talking about a one state/region SHTF situation like Katrina but a hypothetical situation (the cause is not relevant here for this thread) where every single place in the US for whatever reason does not have access to food, water and medicines. I'm assuming this would not be an overnight situation where everything happens at once but a gradual situation over a few months starting at SHTF and progressing to the TEOTWAWKI.
> 
> In my estimation there will not be regular break ins/home invasions till people come to the conclusion they will be out of resources they need to survive and there no longer is a police force or national guard in place or justice system to enforce the law. For example if you lived in New Orleans during Katrina you would fully realize that if you committed break ins/crimes you would eventually get arrested and prosecuted once law and order was reestablished. But just imagine if you knew it wouldn't be reestablished and every place else in the US was under similar situations with no eventual relief.
> 
> I hope this doesn't sound too convoluted. I would expect for the first month or 2, there would still be to a much lesser scale food and water and medicines available and as a result there would be no regular break ins of your house or apartment. When do you think this would be a regular occurrence? If you want me to reword this thread let me know.


After Rita hit Houston people were standing in the street demanding water and food as soon as the winds died down. In the scenario you describe I think that in certain areas home invasions would start almost immediately and certainly by nightfall of the first day.


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## readytogo

U.S. Department of Justice
Office of Justice Programs
Bureau of Justice Statistics
An estimated 3.7 million household burglaries occurred each
year on average from 2003 to 2007. In about 28% of these
burglaries, a household member was present during the burglary.
In 7% of all household burglaries, a household member
experienced some form of violent victimization. This are old numbers but it shows that you don`t have to wait for a shtf moment for a home invasion.


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## JayJay

when I've used my head instead to make decisions, the results were a lot better for me........................

this liberal response reminds me of a cartoon I saw once oa a sign on a yard:
~~~~~~My NEXT DOOR NEIGHBOR wants to BAN GUNS!
Their house is NOT ARMED!
OUT of RESPECT for their opinion I promise
NOT to use MY GUNS to PROTECT THEM.~~~~~~~~

Nuff said!


----------



## jimLE

Ultimate Question How Long Will It Take For Regular Home Invasions Once TEOTWAWKI? i've thought of something else when it comes to that queston.pick any town/city in any state.be it 500 or 500.000..how many ppl actully dont take the time to cook a meal for what ever reason(s).be it,because thay cant cook,or because they got into a bad habit of eating out,instead of cooking.either way. their not stocked up on food and water.much less anything else.they will be among the first to go out and loot stores for foods that they dont have to cook,or prepare in any other way.then the attacks on homes and people will start.


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## Caribou

readytogo said:


> U.S. Department of Justice
> Office of Justice Programs
> Bureau of Justice Statistics
> An estimated 3.7 million household burglaries occurred each
> year on average from 2003 to 2007. In about 28% of these
> burglaries, a household member was present during the burglary.
> In 7% of all household burglaries, a household member
> experienced some form of violent victimization. This are old numbers but it shows that you don`t have to wait for a shtf moment for a home invasion.


Criminals will commit about 8000 home invasions today and a similar number tomorrow. Once they think the cops are too busy that number will immediately increase. Three days to a week later the "good people" will start looting, increasing the number of home invasions further. These are the people that did not prepare and suddenly find themselves faced with their own mortality.

Because of their gun laws more than half of the home invasions in Great Britain occur when the resident is home. Criminals are most afraid of civilians with guns, take away that fear and they will take advantage of the situation.

Yes Peaches, there is insurance to protect people caught up in a self defense situation. You can find a link to one at the bottom of this post. It is not technically insurance but it serves the purpose. Even more important is the training that this group provides. Many innocent people talk themselves into prison, learn how to survive the legal system after you have survived a gunfight. You can read their monthly journal without joining, it is well worth the time. Membership comes with a number of training videos and their ability to assist you should that terrible day ever happen. Everyday terrible things happen to people. Preparing for the individual disaster is every bit as important as preparing for a national disaster.

The rule is, "don't go to stupid places or do stupid things, with stupid people." Add to that a level of awareness and you will be able to avoid most altercations. Please note the word most in the previous sentence. The gun is for when all else fails. The gun is like the fire extinguishers that I keep staged around the house or the spare tire in the car.


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## readytogo

There is no guaranty that a weapon will prevent a home invasion and I do respect anybodies decision on whether to own one or not, there are plenty of issues when owning a weapon and if you own one you most practice and learn the laws, at any moment anyone can break into your house and if you’re not a Cisco Kid type that has it strap to his side 24/7, you just bought the bullet. Like the numbers show a home invasion occurs very frequently in the USA and many weapons are stolen right out the owners hand, now do I have to lived in total fear and paranoia to the point of dressing up like Rambo and marching through my home loaded for war, no, but it means that I should be aware of my surroundings, the news, and if the locals gangster wannabe want to riot and created havoc I should have besides ammo and guns, some water and food and some good homemade fireworks.


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## BillM

*Home invasions*

They will take place within five days.

Most of the unprepared will be hungry by then.

Within a month it will largely die off because they will die off or be too weak to mount an invasion.

The hoard from the city will not make it to rural America. They will live or die in the city. There will be no gasoline to leave and they will not walk.

Within six months , only 10 percent of the population will be left but there will be vast resources for the survivors to make a comeback.


----------



## Dakine

BillM said:


> They will take place within five days.
> 
> Most of the unprepared will be hungry by then.
> 
> Within a month it will largely die off because they will die off or be too weak to mount an invasion.
> 
> The hoard from the city will not make it to rural America. They will live or die in the city. There will be no gasoline to leave and they will not walk.
> 
> Within six months , only 10 percent of the population will be left but there will be vast resources for the survivors to make a comeback.


wow.

skinnies in Mog are running around in techincals and there's a definite shortage of Circle K's and Exxon stations to refuel. So the threat from inner cities will never make it to rural America is pure fantasy. siphoning gas is not a new skill set for these people to learn, nor is stealing as the time/situation presents itself. a midsize honda/toyota/nissan whatever car can go what... 250-350 miles on one tank of gas? yeah... I'm pretty sure they got out of the city limits on that and filled up the entire tank on whatever cars were parked nearby.

I do agree with 5 days... and likely a lot sooner if there's complete grid failure and everything that people consider 3 days of food suddenly turns into 36 hours of food at best. If they even have that much. someone wont... and that person will get desperate, and then it starts...

the only way "they" live in the city is if the .gov starts redirecting EVERYTHING to the cities to control the population, think Somalia again... otherwise they'll be eating the "long pork" in the cities... and that's a really bad scene nobody wants to be part of.

oh, what's long pork? here you go... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibalism

good times...


----------



## Dakine

PeachesBackwards said:


> This is exactly what gets me. If I came around my apartment building or my sisters block of houses she lives in and we just said, we'd like everyone to contribute $500 a year each so that they could have food of their choice and water put aside for an entire year in case of disaster, in a central locked location, where they'd be free to use the food anytime for how they wish, 98% of them would scream "you're crazy and get out". These same people would then expect me to give them my "stash" if they needed it and failing that would just rob it from me.


agreed completely, and I'd also add that your apartment building is likely your biggest liability. You're fine, your neighbor next door is fine. Your neighbor across the hall is fine. Your neighbor upstairs is fine... the guy in the totally different building 30 feet away fell asleep while smoking and started his apartment on fire, only now there's no emergency services, the "small" sofa fire went from sofa to apt to building to complex in about 3 hours and if there was a news feed, it would say dozens of houses were lost.

Get away from apartments as fast as you can. I know that's not easy but if/when SHTF it's not going to be easier when you're at the mercy of some bunch of yahoo's who fall asleep smoking dope or trying to BBQ indoors and then all of a sudden the entire building(s) are on fire.

Good luck!!!


----------



## tunnelvision

I would say any where from 3 days to a week. It really has to do with how much food is in their house and how entitled they think they are. We really won't know how long it will take until we are actually in it. What I do know they will have a fight on their hands.


----------



## Kodeman

If and when this situation arises, people who have "bragged" about the amount of provisions they have laid up, will have to be prepared for the "unwelcomed" visitor. Only my immediate family are aware of my preps and there locations.


----------



## jimLE

and thats why i wont and dont talk about prepping publicly..there's already people that'll gladly take what someone else has.in which,that'll increse a great deal once things as we know it, go belly up..


----------



## BillM

*The Reason*



Dakine said:


> wow.
> 
> skinnies in Mog are running around in techincals and there's a definite shortage of Circle K's and Exxon stations to refuel. So the threat from inner cities will never make it to rural America is pure fantasy. siphoning gas is not a new skill set for these people to learn, nor is stealing as the time/situation presents itself. a midsize honda/toyota/nissan whatever car can go what... 250-350 miles on one tank of gas? yeah... I'm pretty sure they got out of the city limits on that and filled up the entire tank on whatever cars were parked nearby.
> 
> I do agree with 5 days... and likely a lot sooner if there's complete grid failure and everything that people consider 3 days of food suddenly turns into 36 hours of food at best. If they even have that much. someone wont... and that person will get desperate, and then it starts...
> 
> the only way "they" live in the city is if the .gov starts redirecting EVERYTHING to the cities to control the population, think Somalia again... otherwise they'll be eating the "long pork" in the cities... and that's a really bad scene nobody wants to be part of.
> 
> oh, what's long pork? here you go... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibalism
> 
> good times...


The reason I say they will not leave the city is because most of the entitled class , never leave a ten block area that they were born in.

They have been so conditioned to rescue from the government that they will just riot in the hood until there are no resources to pull from and then the majority of them will die right there.

Some will leave but if they wind up in the country, they are going to stick out like a sore thumb and will be quickly dealt with by the locals.

If you live in a rural setting, your biggest concern should be the local scum that winds up on your county court docket each month. They know who has and who has not already.


----------



## phideaux

When the ice storm ,in Ky, hit us 6 yrs ago, the county I live in was hardest hit.

NO electricity for 21 days .
The only grocery store was empty in 3 days,
NO gas was pumped within 50 miles, for 10 days, ( for generators, thats why mine is LP)

The NG finally showed up after 2 weeks with water and MREs and Kerosene.

We are very rural , my family was snug as a bug in a rug, 

B U T... everyone KNEW it was going to be short term..

I wonder how it would have been if there was no relief in sight for months, years. Nashville , being only 110 miles away.

I would be fine, but we may need to set up a defense.


Jim


----------



## BillM

*Electricity off during ice storm*

There were people who died and some break-ins during that storm


----------



## phideaux

Myself and some neighbors with chainsaws and Tractors , actually opened up the hwy that runs to our houses. 
But nothing to go out for anyway. EVERYTHING was shut down.

After the second week, the roads opened and I drove 100 miles to Marion Il, to buy gas for generator, thats when I converted to LP .I now have 500 gals worth of prpane, as its shelf life is forever.

We only used it 2-3 hrs a day. 
I heat with wood. We cooked with wood. The gen ran the well. We had plenty food. 

I learned a few more things about survival.

We were fine.



Jim


----------



## Dakine

BillM said:


> The reason I say they will not leave the city is because most of the entitled class , never leave a ten block area that they were born in.
> 
> They have been so conditioned to rescue from the government that they will just riot in the hood until there are no resources to pull from and then the majority of them will die right there.
> 
> Some will leave but if they wind up in the country, they are going to stick out like a sore thumb and will be quickly dealt with by the locals.
> 
> If you live in a rural setting, your biggest concern should be the local scum that winds up on your county court docket each month. They know who has and who has not already.


I agree with a lot of that, especially the conditioned entitlement mindset. I think the myriad of possibilities that may happen make it very hard to realistically project what they will do when SHTF. super storm sandy vs. economic collapse for example; night and day different. In some kind of major storm or other huge natural disaster even if they wanted to go walkabout the chances are good the roads are fubar anyway, nowhere to go.

I would also agree that the most immediate concern, if not the biggest, will be local dirt birds and there's always a clan of them somewhere. Those people need to get weeded out... ASAP!

The problem with locusts that get out of the city is that it probably won't take much to saturate whatever defenses individual ranches and farms have. As far as I know, most people in that life aren't really looking at those kind of problems, they've got real problems in their face right now... will it rain enough, will it rain too much, can I get the harvest to market, will the tractor make it another season without a rebuild, etc.

it's going to be ugly almost everywhere if/when things unravel.


----------



## Oomingmak

Dakine said:


> I agree with a lot of that, especially the conditioned entitlement mindset. I think the myriad of possibilities that may happen make it very hard to realistically project what they will do when SHTF. super storm sandy vs. economic collapse for example; night and day different. In some kind of major storm or other huge natural disaster even if they wanted to go walkabout the chances are good the roads are fubar anyway, nowhere to go.
> 
> I would also agree that the most immediate concern, if not the biggest, will be local dirt birds and there's always a clan of them somewhere. Those people need to get weeded out... ASAP!
> 
> The problem with locusts that get out of the city is that it probably won't take much to saturate whatever defenses individual ranches and farms have. As far as I know, most people in that life aren't really looking at those kind of problems, they've got real problems in their face right now... will it rain enough, will it rain too much, can I get the harvest to market, will the tractor make it another season without a rebuild, etc.
> 
> it's going to be ugly almost everywhere if/when things unravel.


Well I can understand that many might think that, but I live very rural and I can assure you that our household and all my neighbours take farm invasion very seriously.
Thing is, we already know that someone could hit us and it is almost certain that no one will see them. Neighbours are far enough away that you do not see a vehicle going to their farm due to the terrain and the bush. Once in the yard site, even a neighbour driving by would be hard pressed to know if you had visitors.

We also know that in a bad situation the police are going to have a response time of, oh, about an hour and a half........... so the troops are not coming to your rescue. You better be prepared to take care of yourselves. If you had time for a phone call in a home invasion like scenario, you are probably better off calling the neighbour to warn them and then the police if you have time for a second call. Failing the second call the neighbours will make that call AND come to help.

That rancher that you meet, chewing on a toothpick and waving at you as you drive by just might be a bit more savvy about the state of affairs in the world than you think. Even us hicks get the internet and many have a lot more experience with the big bad world than you might think.


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## readytogo

There is enough stuff here to make a horror movie, if you are talking about the END what difference would it make how much food or water you have ,after all ,is the END. Many who have never suffer a power failure or flood or hurricane or tornado have no idea of what they are talking about but is also funny that in the same sentence the talk of killing others for food comes out ,it really shows the other side of humanity ,if it can really be called HUMANITY.


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## chigger digger

looking at the issue from a different perspective ,(as I'm known to do ) in some areas of the country I see home invasions going down for awhile !!


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## Dakine

Oomingmak said:


> Well I can understand that many might think that, but I live very rural and I can assure you that our household and all my neighbours take farm invasion very seriously.
> Thing is, we already know that someone could hit us and it is almost certain that no one will see them. Neighbours are far enough away that you do not see a vehicle going to their farm due to the terrain and the bush. Once in the yard site, even a neighbour driving by would be hard pressed to know if you had visitors.
> 
> We also know that in a bad situation the police are going to have a response time of, oh, about an hour and a half........... so the troops are not coming to your rescue. You better be prepared to take care of yourselves. If you had time for a phone call in a home invasion like scenario, you are probably better off calling the neighbour to warn them and then the police if you have time for a second call. Failing the second call the neighbours will make that call AND come to help.
> 
> That rancher that you meet, chewing on a toothpick and waving at you as you drive by just might be a bit more savvy about the state of affairs in the world than you think. Even us hicks get the internet and many have a lot more experience with the big bad world than you might think.


My apology, I can see how it came off that way. perhaps my mistake is that mainly I attribute rural people the same as I know here, and my community is not "big city" San Diego and LA are both about an hour away, but it's not really a farming community anymore either, as that's been increasingly pushed out the last 20 years or so with regulations and the drought doesn't help that's for sure and then there's urban sprawl taking over.

and as you just mentioned being remote is a disadvantage for sure. That's what I meant about a car load of locusts could saturate a farm/ranch and those odds only get worse when there's more locusts.


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## tsrwivey

readytogo said:


> There is enough stuff here to make a horror movie, if you are talking about the END what difference would it make how much food or water you have ,after all ,is the END.


Two straw men in one post! I don think anyone's talking about "the end" but TEOTWAWKI. (See title of the thread)



readytogo said:


> Many who have never suffer a power failure or flood or hurricane or tornado have no idea of what they are talking about but is also funny that in the same sentence the talk of killing others for food comes out ,it really shows the other side of humanity ,if it can really be called HUMANITY.


I'm sure everyone here has experienced a power outage & you do realize experiencing a hurricane is 100% preventable, right?

It's perfectly human to defend what's yours & the supplies that will keep you & your loved ones alive. I fail to see letting the thieves steal your supplies so you can watch your kids starve as "humane" but to each his own.


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## Gians

BillM said:


> ...............If you live in a rural setting, your biggest concern should be the local scum that winds up on your county court docket each month. They know who has and who has not already.


Just finished a book about meth driven crime in rural communities around the nation. I knew it was bad, but this was a real eye opener.
_Shadow People: How Meth-driven Crime Is Eating At the Heart of Rural America
by Scott Thomas Anderson_


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## Radstev

PeachesBackwards said:


> I will think a 1000 times about doing something like this while there is still a law enforcement system in place. Living in the City, albeit a smaller part of LA, I have no doubts that if I did this while there was still law and order, it would cost me a fortune to get a lawyer to avoid being charged with a crime or to clear me of a crime because that unfortunately is how the stupid Politically Correct World Works. .


US Concealed Carry Association gives low cost self defense insurance and access to 2nd amendment friendly lawyers. $13 a month gives you $300,000 protection and $30 a month gives you $1,000,000, both come with online training and regular articles.

I lived in a murder every day city before, so there are already plenty of home invasions. Before Sandy hit people on twitter talked about plans for looting, and twitchy posted all of them being called racist because the people tweeting had their pictures shown.

http://twitchy.com/2014/08/11/loot-...ise-black-people-to-loot-white-neighborhoods/

http://twitchy.com/2012/10/29/as-hu...e-hunker-down-by-posting-pics-of-their-drugs/


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## Radstev

Dakine said:


> wow.
> 
> skinnies in Mog are running around in techincals and there's a definite shortage of Circle K's and Exxon stations to refuel. So the threat from inner cities will never make it to rural America is pure fantasy. siphoning gas is not a new skill set for these people to learn, nor is stealing as the time/situation presents itself. a midsize honda/toyota/nissan whatever car can go what... 250-350 miles on one tank of gas? yeah... I'm pretty sure they got out of the city limits on that and filled up the entire tank on whatever cars were parked nearby...good times...


Thanks to Bath House Barry Obama's affirmatively fair housing, inner cities are shipping their vibrants out to section 8 housing in houses that working veterans might not be able to afford. This is done so that there are less rent controlled blacks in high value cities for cronies in real estate to snatch up gentrifying land. During Katrina people blocked bridges to keep vibrants out, but when the SHTF most ghouls wont think of leaving cities until their apartments are full of big screen TVs and they have consumed bad water/food.


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## Dakine

Radstev said:


> Thanks to Bath House Barry Obama's affirmatively fair housing, inner cities are shipping their vibrants out to section 8 housing in houses that working veterans might not be able to afford. This is done so that there are less rent controlled blacks in high value cities for cronies in real estate to snatch up gentrifying land. During Katrina people blocked bridges to keep vibrants out, but when the SHTF most ghouls wont think of leaving cities until their apartments are full of big screen TVs and they have consumed bad water/food.


you have no idea how much I realize that. I work in a very affluent city, and I pass subsidized/free housing project every day on my way into and out of the office. the surrounding houses are 1M each for starters. The freeloaders have it better than me! Thanks .gov, you really appreciate the working class! way to go!

that even liberals would import poverty and subject that to their kids in the education system still defies my understanding of reality.

Where is that darn "reset button" anyways?


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## VoorTrekker

Dakine said:


> ...The freeloaders have it better than me!
> 
> that even liberals would import poverty and subject that to their kids in the education system still defies my understanding of reality.
> 
> Where is that darn "reset button" anyways?...


Perhaps it is a total economic collapse. That would certainly put a lot of people in a position of no return.


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## Mase92

Radstev said:


> US Concealed Carry Association gives low cost self defense insurance and access to 2nd amendment friendly lawyers. $13 a month gives you $300,000 protection and $30 a month gives you $1,000,000, both come with online training and regular articles.
> 
> I lived in a murder every day city before, so there are already plenty of home invasions. Before Sandy hit people on twitter talked about plans for looting, and twitchy posted all of them being called racist because the people tweeting had their pictures shown.


I think this thread is amazing. Filled with good info.

But I'd like to thank the above poster Radstev for the info and the links. What an eye opener. I guess it's a good thing that those tweets were directed at people to um, un-smart to follow them or really understand what they were doing while burning down their cities.

Great post and thanks for the info.


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## Dakine

Mase92 said:


> I think this thread is amazing. Filled with good info.
> 
> But I'd like to thank the above poster Radstev for the info and the links. What an eye opener. I guess it's a good thing that those tweets were directed at people to um, un-smart to follow them or really understand what they were doing while burning down their cities.
> 
> Great post and thanks for the info.


as opposed to people who are known only for making snarky comments (or posting snarky political pics)... eh, Mase? opcorn2:


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## BillM

*Home invasion*

If you are not successful at stoping the invasion and they are in your house, what then ?

The fastest way to end a home invasion is for someone to escape.

Once this happens, the home invaders have to cut and run. the object is to roll up everyone in the house and force compliance with demands. Once someone is out the door the clock is ticking and they have to escape or risk being trapped in the house by responding law enforcement.

The next best thing to actually having someone escape is making the home invaders believe someone escaped, ( Run Forest Run ! )

I called 911, the alarm system called 911, ect.


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## Grimm

BillM said:


> If you are not successful at stoping the invasion and they are in your house, what then ?
> 
> The fastest way to end a home invasion is for someone to escape.
> 
> Once this happens, the home invaders have to cut and run. the object is to roll up everyone in the house and force compliance with demands. Once someone is out the door the clock is ticking and they have to escape or risk being trapped in the house by responding law enforcement.
> 
> The next best thing to actually having someone escape is making the home invaders believe someone escaped, ( Run Forest Run ! )
> 
> I called 911, the alarm system called 911, ect.


The only problem I have with this is the invaders may think they have nothing to lose once they think someone has escaped and just kill everyone in the house so they can make a cleaner get away with their prize.


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## Dakine

Grimm said:


> The only problem I have with this is the invaders may think they have nothing to lose once they think someone has escaped and just kill everyone in the house so they can make a cleaner get away with their prize.


gee, I tried to post similar but it has yet to show up....


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## Dakine

Dakine said:


> gee, I tried to post similar but it has yet to show up....


where's my reply to BillM? where is it? post it. NOW.


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## Caribou

Trying to figure a rational way to deal with criminals is a losing battle. A criminal brain works differently. What is rational to you and what is rational to them is highly unlikely to be the same. You can try all sorts of schemes and any one of them might work on a given criminal on a given day, or not. If you do everything that the criminal says there is about a twenty-five percent chance that you will be injured or killed. If you respond with a firearm there is about a six percent chance. 

A gun is part of my attire. At home or away, if it is legal, I am packing.


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## Dakine

Caribou said:


> Trying to figure a rational way to deal with criminals is a losing battle. A criminal brain works differently. What is rational to you and what is rational to them is highly unlikely to be the same. You can try all sorts of schemes and any one of them might work on a given criminal on a given day, or not. If you do everything that the criminal says there is about a twenty-five percent chance that you will be injured or killed. If you respond with a firearm there is about a six percent chance.
> 
> A gun is part of my attire. At home or away, if it is legal, I am packing.


That's never legal here. the only people granted the license are those who contribute to the sheriffs fund, and there's a significant case that we are YEARS overdue waiting for our rights to be announced... which they are unwilling to do because it means Peruta goes to SCOTUS... oops, you thought Heller was bad (if you're Brady/Bloomberg) guess the **** what... we've got the LAW on our sides, and the guns.

no more.

A RIGHT DELAYED is a RIGHT DENIED!!!! Who said that? how many people actually know the quote without looking it up on google?

it's important. more people should know about it


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## ras1219como

Dakine said:


> That's never legal here. the only people granted the license are those who contribute to the sheriffs fund, and there's a significant case that we are YEARS overdue waiting for our rights to be announced... which they are unwilling to do because it means Peruta goes to SCOTUS... oops, you thought Heller was bad (if you're Brady/Bloomberg) guess the **** what... we've got the LAW on our sides, and the guns.
> 
> no more.
> 
> A RIGHT DELAYED is a RIGHT DENIED!!!! Who said that? how many people actually know the quote without looking it up on google?
> 
> it's important. more people should know about it


Martin Luther King


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## BillM

*My Aunt Jo*



Grimm said:


> The only problem I have with this is the invaders may think they have nothing to lose once they think someone has escaped and just kill everyone in the house so they can make a cleaner get away with their prize.


Years ago , my aunt Jo was home alone at their remote country home.

My uncle was a long haul truck driver who was currently three states away.

It was summer and as there was no air conditioning she had the doors open and the screen doors hooked.

She exited the bathroom with a towel wrapped around her and walked from the hallway into the kitchen where she was confronted by a large black burglar with a stocking mask and a long bladed knife.

He had cut the screen and unhooked the door to gain entrance.

Before he could act, she turned and yelled down the hall, "Mr. Lavender, GET YOUR GUN"!

The burglar hit the screen door so hard leaving that he knocked it partially off the hinges .

He ran across the yard, looked back over his shoulder and knocked himself out on the clothes line post.

When he opened his eyes, he was actually looking down the barrel of My uncle's shotgun but it was being held by my aunt who held him there until the sheriff arrived.

The best weapon you have is your mind.

To use this weapon you have to imagine what can happen and plan your best response ahead of time.

This was her plan long before she was ever confronted.

Never allow an assailant to think you are alone or that he has isolated you !


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## PeachesBackwards

*Not Doubting You But is There a Source for This Statistic?*



Caribou said:


> Trying to figure a rational way to deal with criminals is a losing battle. A criminal brain works differently. What is rational to you and what is rational to them is highly unlikely to be the same. You can try all sorts of schemes and any one of them might work on a given criminal on a given day, or not. If you do everything that the criminal says there is about a twenty-five percent chance that you will be injured or killed. If you respond with a firearm there is about a six percent chance.
> 
> A gun is part of my attire. At home or away, if it is legal, I am packing.


Very Good Points. A few questions though for my personal clarification. 1. Most important, what is the Source for the 6% and 25% figures? 2. Do they vary significantly depending what part of the country you are in- i.e. will those figures hold in New York City as well as for example Idaho? 3. What about black/minority crime against a white male. Still roughly the same? If you think they'll be different please give me your rough guess estimates. I realize that there is no way to get any definite answer but its always helpful to have a rough estimated guide. Thanks


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## PeachesBackwards

*I like your Never Let them think You're Isolated Tip*

Good useful tips, thanks


BillM said:


> Years ago , my aunt Jo was home alone at their remote country home.
> 
> My uncle was a long haul truck driver who was currently three states away.
> 
> It was summer and as there was no air conditioning she had the doors open and the screen doors hooked.
> 
> She exited the bathroom with a towel wrapped around her and walked from the hallway into the kitchen where she was confronted by a large black burglar with a stocking mask and a long bladed knife.
> 
> He had cut the screen and unhooked the door to gain entrance.
> 
> Before he could act, she turned and yelled down the hall, "Mr. Lavender, GET YOUR GUN"!
> 
> The burglar hit the screen door so hard leaving that he knocked it partially off the hinges .
> 
> He ran across the yard, looked back over his shoulder and knocked himself out on the clothes line post.
> 
> When he opened his eyes, he was actually looking down the barrel of My uncle's shotgun but it was being held by my aunt who held him there until the sheriff arrived.
> 
> The best weapon you have is your mind.
> 
> To use this weapon you have to imagine what can happen and plan your best response ahead of time.
> 
> This was her plan long before she was ever confronted.
> 
> Never allow an assailant to think you are alone or that he has isolated you !


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## Caribou

PeachesBackwards said:


> Very Good Points. A few questions though for my personal clarification. 1. Most important, what is the Source for the 6% and 25% figures? 2. Do they vary significantly depending what part of the country you are in- i.e. will those figures hold in New York City as well as for example Idaho? 3. What about black/minority crime against a white male. Still roughly the same? If you think they'll be different please give me your rough guess estimates. I realize that there is no way to get any definite answer but its always helpful to have a rough estimated guide. Thanks


Thanks for asking. Here is the link for "Gun Facts". It is over a hundred pages and is loaded with information of all kinds. The download is free, enjoy.

http://www.gunfacts.info


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## PeachesBackwards

*Thank You Sir, Will Devour This Month*

Thanks for the Link Will devote this entire month to it as it looks like a great read with lots of useful info.



Caribou said:


> Thanks for asking. Here is the link for "Gun Facts". It is over a hundred pages and is loaded with information of all kinds. The download is free, enjoy.
> 
> http://www.gunfacts.info


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## readytogo

*A Much Ask Question.*

I have come across this same post in almost every preper/survivalist forum in the Web and the facts are that this type of crime is very common in America today, some areas more than others, so imagine a total chaos world where local law enforcement is protecting their families ,I happen to be one of many who has encounter riots and major local disturbance right after a major court decision or weather related disaster ,is not pretty ,but nothing compare to what many see on a Mad Max scenario TV show and I pray I never see one .Living in a major city has its good side and bad side and crime has no boundaries ,is all over and criminals are always at the ready to strike vs the average citizen on its way to work or mowing its lawn ,I think I would look kind of funny riding my lawnmower with my steel pot and AR-15 strap to my back just waiting for the bad guys .The idea here is to be alert or alarm but not to the point of paranoia and to realize that life is not a Mayberry USA town anymore ,evil lurks at every corner 24/7 and not just in a TEOTWAWKI scenario. Some statistics here.
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/vdhb.txt


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## Grimm

Readytogo brings up a good point. If PB is really in Los Angeles then he would have lived through the Rodney King Riots etc and have an idea about the answer to his own question.


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## weedygarden

Grimm said:


> Readytogo brings up a good point. If PB is really in Los Angeles then he would have lived through the Rodney King Riots etc and have an idea about the answer to his own question.


Yes, but that depends upon his age. I really get the feeling that he is young, maybe late teen or twenties.


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## Grimm

weedygarden said:


> Yes, but that depends upon his age. I really get the feeling that he is young, maybe late teen or twenties.


I agree but he did claim in another thread to be retired. (Living in LA were a studio apartment is hard to find for less than 2K)


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## BillM

*Mayberry*



readytogo said:


> I have come across this same post in almost every preper/survivalist forum in the Web and the facts are that this type of crime is very common in America today, some areas more than others, so imagine a total chaos world where local law enforcement is protecting their families ,I happen to be one of many who has encounter riots and major local disturbance right after a major court decision or weather related disaster ,is not pretty ,but nothing compare to what many see on a Mad Max scenario TV show and I pray I never see one .Living in a major city has its good side and bad side and crime has no boundaries ,is all over and criminals are always at the ready to strike vs the average citizen on its way to work or mowing its lawn ,I think I would look kind of funny riding my lawnmower with my steel pot and AR-15 strap to my back just waiting for the bad guys .The idea here is to be alert or alarm but not to the point of paranoia and to realize that life is not a Mayberry USA town anymore ,evil lurks at every corner 24/7 and not just in a TEOTWAWKI scenario. Some statistics here.
> http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/vdhb.txt


Mayberry has always been a myth.

Nobody in Mayberry was married except Ottis and he was the town drunk !

Go figure :dunno:


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