# Diesel 4x4 or gas 4x4????



## ihaveMANHIDE




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## Herklord

If you plan on towing a lot diesel makes more sense. If you need a grocery getter than gas is going to be less expensive


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## PackerBacker

Is this a question?


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## Trip286

What herk said.

What's the intended usage?


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## farright

like Herk n Trip said if your gonna do alot of heavy towing diesel if not gas there isnt a major difference in fuel milage but the price of diesel is a buck a gallon more by me so i would go gas if i wasnt gonna be working it hard.


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## PackerBacker

Those trucks are not an apple to apples comparison. Not that diesel to gas ever is but those are to different vintage of trucks and 1/2 vs 3/4 ton.

I'll take a diesel over gas for highway miles any day.

Most people don't get it that the higher the price of fuel the more you save with a diesel. Even with the price inverted like it is.


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## UncleJoe

PackerBacker said:


> but those are two different vintage of trucks and 1/2 vs 3/4 ton.


And they're Chevy's.  :ignore:


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## PackerBacker

UncleJoe said:


> And they're Chevy's.  :ignore:


I was going to let that slide since they were built before the gov't took over.


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## smaj100

There is a big difference in Mileage depending on what engine sits under the hood of the gas rig. Years ago a buddy of mine bought the exact same chevy 2500hd that I had -color, and his was a diesel. I had the 6.0 gas for towing. He regularly got 20-24 on the hwy, my gas got 15 at best under the same conditions. So even at $1 a gallon for the heavy stuff, I would have made the trade to diesel. 

I won't give up my baby now, but she will soon find a new garage mate. 2013 chevy 3500 diesel. The 6L still runs great and (knocking on wood) has never given me any major problems.


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## LincTex

smaj100 said:


> He regularly got 20-24 on the hwy, my gas got 15 at best under the same conditions. So even at $1 a gallon for the heavy stuff, I would have made the trade to diesel.


No kidding. So many people get caught up on the dollar per gallon price difference, but obviously are really bad at math. I run into that all the time.

My truck: '79 F250 4WD with 400M = 10-11 MPG on gas
Now with 4BT-3.9 Cummins diesel = 25-28 MPG

Besides, I mix 10% used motor oil with the fuel, so I save 40 cents a gallon doing that.... and the turbo Cummins has WAAAY more torque than the 400M ever did!


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## BlacksmithKevin

Diesel engines require less maintenance than gas. Long term maintenance should be thought about if SHTF.


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## LincTex

BlacksmithKevin said:


> Diesel engines require less maintenance than gas. Long term maintenance should be thought about if SHTF.


All I need are oil and filters, fuel filters, serpentine belt, spare injectors with copper washers, and a spare turbo. Got all of it, not very much money, enough to last long after the fuel runs out!! I even scored a spare injection pump off eBay for $230.


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## Fn/Form

Herklord said:


> If you plan on towing a lot diesel makes more sense. If you need a grocery getter than gas is going to be less expensive


As long as it's a *turbo* diesel you will get much better tow/mileage. Which nowadays are usually computer controlled--to include the multitude of sensors. I have no idea how to predict real EMP events/effects.

If you completely disregard EMP events, and want to preserve the long life of a diesel, you still need to stock specialized tools and parts to support today's high pressure direct injection diesels.

Buying/learning older models allows you a lot more simplicity and shade tree ability.

Diesel fuel has more energy than gas. And diesel engines in trucks, generators, welders last much longer.

Naturally aspirated (non-turbo) V-8 diesels have fuel performance similar to gas. Inline 6 cylinders a bit better. Mechanically-controlled turbo diesels are the best of both worlds, but not as simple as a naturally aspirated diesel.

I come from diesel ownership and immediate family experience... naturally aspirated and turbo, including a PowerStroke and Caterpillar tech.


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## forluvofsmoke

Engine size does matter for fuel economy and engine life, depending on it's severity of service. If a smaller engine is worked a lot harder for heavier towing/hauling, it will not last as long as a larger block engine with heavier built rod/main bearings and crank.

Bigger displacement and heavier lower end components = more fuel usage under non-severe duty service, but on the flip side will last longer.

Diesel, well, you have to consider several things before you can justify the extra coin for purchase and maintenance (yes, overall maintenance is higher than gas): mileage driven per year; severity of service; expected length of ownership (depreciation); longer overall engine life than gas (in most cases); same overall drive-train life as gas, with exception to severe duty service, then expect reduced life (transmission, transfer case and rear differential out-lived by engine and needing major repair or complete overhaul).

If all these combined don't equate to any cost savings in driving a diesel, then you may regret owning it later when you find these things out the hard way. As far as drive-train repairs, you could spend more on repairs than the vehicle is actually worth if it is aging (depreciation), not even considering engine overhaul.

If considering a diesel vs gas for a BOV, you'll need plenty of reserve fuel caches enroute to your BOL, or on-board. Diesel can legally be hauled in transfer tanks. Gas is not so easy to haul in compliance...I've yet to find tanks for transport of gas, so portable cans may be the only option (btw, if anyone knows a source, let me know). Gas may be plentiful in the first stages of SHTF, if you want to siphon for spare from abandoned vehicles, but diesel may be another story in many areas. Gas needs stabilizer for storage of any length of time (cheap insurance), where diesel is naturally more stable over longer periods of storage than gas.


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## Fn/Form

BlacksmithKevin said:


> Diesel engines require less maintenance than gas. Long term maintenance should be thought about if SHTF.


If you're talking old school, that has some merit. But the older models often need inj pump rebuilds using the newer ultra low sulphur fuel. Diesel oil changes are about double or triple the quantity of a gas online engine. I don't know of any modern diesel engines that are any cheaper to repair than a gasoline engine... and transmissions are often more trouble than the engines anyway.

IMO fuel storage is the only limiting factor for any SHTF scenario road vehicles. I don't see how Joe Blow could store enough fuel long enough to end up wishing he had bought a diesel vs. gas.

The more important aspect is ag use. Even with limited fuel supply I would concentrate my money on diesel storage and tractor reliability. A few seasons of ground development is much more important than having a running truck for the same price and storage.


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## PackerBacker

forluvofsmoke said:


> overall maintenance is higher than gas


This certainly hasn't been my experience.


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## Fn/Form

forluvofsmoke said:


> ...same overall drive-train life as gas, with exception to severe duty service, then expect reduced life (transmission, transfer case and rear differential out-lived by engine and needing major repair or complete overhaul)...


Word. Same obsevations here.


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## LincTex

Fn/Form said:


> But the older models often need injection pump rebuilds using the newer ultra low sulfur fuel.


You only need to replace the input shaft seal. Its a 12 dollar part and can be done at home, no pump rebuild needed at all. A little bit of well filtered used motor oil keeps the pump lubricated when running ULSD. Two stroke oil (128:1) also works well.



Fn/Form said:


> Diesel oil changes are about double or triple the quantity of a gas online engine.


2.5 gallons... but I don't change it very often. I can get about 3000 miles from the oil in a gas engine before its pretty nasty, but I'll run my diesel oil for 20,000 miles, and it is still fine, so it's a wash. Besides, it isn't a huge expense, relative to other expenses.



Fn/Form said:


> I would concentrate my money on diesel storage and tractor reliability. A few seasons of ground development is much more important


Agreed.


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## LincTex

forluvofsmoke said:


> Gas is not so easy to haul in compliance...I've yet to find tanks for transport of gas, so portable cans may be the only option (btw, if anyone knows a source, let me know). .


Piece of cake. Head down to your local Tractor Supply(TSC), Mill's Fleet Farm, Atwood's, etc. etc.


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## cowboyhermit

Diesel engines are generally more durable, more efficient, and they are able to burn a wide variety of substances. I personally much prefer a mechanical, direct injection engine but they are not that easy to find.
Gasoline engines are cheaper, less efficient, and are generally limited to one fuel type without modifications. At least an e85 or a vehicle with some modifications allows you to burn alcohol, something that will continue to be manufactured no matter what happens on this planet.

The funny thing about the two trucks in the original post, in our area they would elicit two extremely different responses, now, and I can only imagine in a shtf situation.
First truck, "Is that old Mike, Jim, or Bob, or some other farmer?"
Second truck "Who the F**K is that *** and what the **** is he doing out here?"


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## ihaveMANHIDE

Just to clear things up a bit, my duramax gets about 20 to 21 mpg on highway and about 16 to 18 in town. As just a general all purpose vehicle, I'd occasionally be using it for pulling stuff an pushing stuff. Both are really good for both. The gas one gets shitty mpg on both town and highway. I personally think the diesel is the way to go


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## forluvofsmoke

Originally Posted by *forluvofsmoke*  
_ overall maintenance is higher than gas_



PackerBacker said:


> This certainly hasn't been my experience.


With some fuel injected gas engines, I've run for upwards of 60,000 miles before needing a tune-up (plugs, wires, cap, rotor), with costs ranging from approx, $60-$90, and I can do this simple job myself, so no labor cost. I may clean the cap/rotor @ 25-30K. Carb engines won't see this long of runs without tune-ups, but they don't run as clean, either...plugs cleaned/gapped @ 15-20K, replaced @ 30-35K, wires/cap/rotor every other plug change was my norm, with cleaning the cap/rotor when plugs were changed. Ocassionally, a plug wire would fail before I planned on changing the set, but not often.

With diesels, think about fuel injectors...they are the heart of the beast, and can become the source of major issues. A ex-co-worker of my son has an older (early/mid 90's) Dodge 1-ton dually with a 5.9 Cummins...he was quoted $1,800.00 including labor for this, and this engine had under 230(something),000 miles, but definitely had signs of injector issues (rough idle, intermittent smoke with steady throttle, etc, after having the pump tested with a fresh filter). So, that said, approx. 240,000 miles of tune-ups on a gasser (barring sensor or other ECM related issues) at a cost of around $240-$360 vs $1,800 is a no-brainer for me. Even if I had the necessary tools and skills to do an injector swap myself, and do it right the first time, I'd still be paying more for the diesel @ over $1,200 for parts. Does the extra maintenance out-weight the benefits of the diesel over gas in the long-term? I'm sure it would, but if I bought a used diesel with high mileage, I'd want to get it cheap, 'cuz I'd need the money I saved for repairs to come soon afterwards.

I mentioned *barring sensor/ECM related issues* because all engines can and will have these problems eventually, including electronic controlled diesels...we're constantly fighting sensor/ECM problems with our truck fleet, especially with 1st generation DPF engines (2007 emissions)...second generation DPF/DEF engines (2010 & up) aren't as bad, but still have problems, and these will likely be closely reflected on light-duty highway diesel engines. As far as injector replacements, in heavy diesel truck engines (Cat, Cummins, Detroit) for example, it is recommended to replace the injectors @ 500,000 mile intervals, whether the engine appears to operating normal or not...nothing like an injector failure to ruin you day, and your engine. I don't know about light diesels, but would imagine the intervals are far more frequent, as nothing in these smaller engines will outlast a heavy diesel's components (I had a '99 12.7L S-60 500HP Detroit run 640,000 miles without failure, no turning the bearings or injector replacement, but I treated that engine with respect, as I do with all of them.

_*EDIT:*_ I failed to mention this, but has anyone ever experienced the delema of a failed turbo? Down-time and cost? I can tell you after shredding a turbo on a 12.7L Detroit, it ain't fun, and just to keep the engine on warranty, we had to have the charge-air cooler flushed. BTW, when that came apart, it sounded like a bomb went off under the hood...take about TSHTF...:shtf:

The injector issues in the 5.9 Cummins described above were likely fuel-related (ULSD), so could the injector swap have been extended for another 100,000 miles?? I can't answer that question, but recommended intervals are just that...experience has told the manufacturers what they can expect for a given component's life, and recommend when to replace it to avoid a costly failure...follow recommendations, and do be aware that low sulfur diesel is not good for older engines (pre-2006)...I would use upper-cylinder lubricant additives such as Marvel Mystery Oil or equivalent (or someone mentioned filtered used oil) to prolong the life of injectors, pump and everything else in the path of the fuel. Sulfur *was* a lubricant in the fuel, and now we don't have that to our advantage, so, take the necessary precautions.

BTW, federal EPA is pushing for ALL diesels (not just highway service) to be compliant with the standards similar to the 2010 highway emissions (Tier 4). Whether highway, rail, industrial/farm, etc, this will become the norm, so be advised. Not sure what that implies to small diesel engines, like portable gen-sets and small tractors...huge increase in expense, that I'm sure. You won't be able to buy a new diesel of any kind without the DPF/DEF emission controls. Me? If were considering buying a diesel, I'd get the oldest reliable model available for my intended application that I could still get parts for, and grab some replacements of the critical components, and those prone to failure, so I could get many years of service and be able to maintain it throughout that time.

Straight from the horse's mouth:

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/nonroad-diesel.htm

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/highway-diesel/

http://www.epa.gov/cleandiesel/basicinfo.htm


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## LincTex

cowboyhermit said:


> I personally much prefer a mechanical, direct injection engine but they are not that easy to find.


I don't trust ANY of the "common-rail-ECU-driven-variable-vane-electronic-wastegate-10,000psi-oil-pressure-injectors-DEF-needing" diesels.

Basically, anything after around 1998 or so, I would not own.


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## LincTex

forluvofsmoke said:


> .... has an older (early/mid 90's) Dodge 1-ton dually with a 5.9 Cummins...he was quoted $1,800.00 including labor for this.


Ouch, that's steep. I suppose if you buy new parts and take it to the shop...

I see "stock" used injectors for that era truck on ebay all the time for about $150... for a full set. I think i paid less than $100 for my spare set. Diesel "bombers" swap in bigger ones all the time. They are really not hard to change at all.... really no worse than changing a spark plug???



forluvofsmoke said:


> The injector issues in the 5.9 Cummins described above were likely fuel-related (ULSD), ... such as Marvel Mystery Oil or equivalent (or someone mentioned filtered used oil) to prolong the life of injectors, pump and everything else in the path of the fuel.


That was me. 
MMO isn't all that great... it actually HURTS lubricity numbers!
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=177728


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## cowboyhermit

I agree, worked on diesels of all sizes, can be daunting at first but really not much different. Older is usually much easier to work on.
Something as simple as changing plugs can be a PITA on a new car/truck, case in point a couple Ford 5.4's that I have seen.
The new ULSD has been reported to cause all kinds of problems, but have heard similar things about ethanol blends as well, it is just something that has to be dealt with. We usually just run Howes or RedTek, though we often run RedTek in the gas motors as well.
But we have not always used conditioner and we have some diesel engines with original pumps that are over 50 years old, how much do you want? 
We very rarely have to deal with injectors but they really aren't that bad, just takes a little learning.


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## PackerBacker

forluvofsmoke said:


> _ overall maintenance is higher than gas_


I have a couple of powerstrokes with 300k on them without a penny spent on them. How many gassers are going to do that?


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## zombieresponder

PackerBacker said:


> Most people don't get it that the higher the price of fuel the more you save with a diesel. Even with the price inverted like it is.


Actually, it sort of depends. A while back I calculated the difference in cost and found that I could drive an equivalent gas vehicle that got several mpg less, due to the difference in fuel prices. Everything is more expensive with a diesel vehicle, though I didn't factor that in with the calculations I made.

For something to drive up and down the highway, it's tough to beat a small car with a four cylinder. Towing or hauling are a different matter.


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## Herklord

What i meant for towing was not that diesels are better in terms of gas mileage (though they are) its all about torque. Diesels make huge torque numbers even at low hp numbers like a 4BT


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## PackerBacker

zombieresponder said:


> Actually, it sort of depends. A while back I calculated the difference in cost and found that I could drive an equivalent gas vehicle that got several mpg less, due to the difference in fuel prices.


Must have been some dam fuzzy math.


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## cnsper

Well I can give you an example of where the diesel will be almost 1/2 the cost. When I run into town I have a 82 dodge w150 shortbed 4x4 and I can get about 12 mpg out of that wonderful 318. Now that takes about 8 gallons round trip for the 100 miles total. Now that is equal to $24. A cummins that gets roughly 25 mpg will cost me $13.94. There is no question which one I would rather drive.

As for working on them, all I will ever have is the older ones. I used to have a 6.2 gmc and was told I needed to have them replace the injector pump. I could not afford it so I got out my sockets and coffee can and went to work. Got it all put back together and fired her up. No one told me I had to bleed the injectors until after I was driving it and it never missed a beat.

I know of a guy that traded a cummins for a gas because he was tired to paying for the cost of diesel. We have to keep his hammers hidden so he does not knock himself in the head.


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## overbore

*Jumpin In*

Since I am the first owner of a 1981 MB turbo diesel, a 1995 4X4 Cummins 12 valve3/4T Dodge, a single cylinder Listeroid 1,000 rpm generator and have operated a Perkins turbo 6 on my boat plus the Westerbeke 3 cylinder gen set, I feel I have some experience with diesels.

As to mileage, I run a 5 speed manual trannie and Rickson larger tires/wheels to improve upon the miles to about 23 at 60 mph highway with no A/C and medium loads. The Turbo diesel Register lists Ginos Garage as seller of simple oil change valves and quality parts for those of us who DIIYS. Since my boat held 800 gallons, proper and prompt fuel treatment is essential to minimizing wear on injectors and pumps and, if you keep the tank at least 1/2 full, water formation is minimized. Local MB dealer says I am the only owner who has not had to replace my fuel tank--Added Racor filters/ water seperators ( 2 micron filtration ) to all for minimal problems from water which is expensive to repair. Rebuilt injectors are the way to go when necessary.

Laus Deo
overbore


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## forluvofsmoke

Here's an approximation of cost for diesel vs gas at the current prices (as of 2 says ago when I was out and about last) for motor fuels in my area, based on 1,000 miles per month with mixed city/highway driving, but probably reflecting a close split in difference, where neither vehicle would get their peak fuel economy, suffer a small amount of idle time, etc. This does not account for idle time for warm-ups, as those paying attention closely will see a huge reduction in economy figures...like 40-50%. We see a lot lower fuel economy in winter due to idle time, and just everything being stiffer from colder temps causing more resistance to motion (tires have more rolling resistance, lubricants are thicker, etc) and it takes more torque from the engine to get moving and keep moving.

One additional factor to consider, though, and as an example, my sons diesel takes a long time to warm up compared to a gas engine (likely due to the extra mass of the engine block and possibly less fuel consumption at idle), if he chooses to do so, which will in turn make for a noticeable increase in fuel use in this case. Others may choose to just jump in a start driving unless frost/ice/snow needs to be cleared from the glass...higher risk for engine damage if driven harder when the water and oil temps are low, and unless driven long enough to bring all fluids to normal temps, the engine is at risk for water condensation accumulating in the oil. I have personally experienced this in the colder winter temps in which the engine did not have high enough temps and long enough time to dissipate/evaporate the water vapor from the crankcase. If this is a normal situation, much more frequent oil changes are needed. I actually had slush in my oil pan in a V-6 gas powered vehicle and lost oil pressure after starting up in sub-zero temps...happened several times and I actually had to maintain higher rpm to maintain oil pressure after it warmed-up because the oil was diluted with water once the slush melted. This is probably an extreme case due to the engine needing overhaul, but I had to change oil every 200-250 miles due to short drives of 2-2.5 miles at a time and not reaching normal temps at all. I saved fuel by not idling to warm-up, sure, and in the process I increased the maintenance cost by probably 1,000%...what a pickle, huh? Moral: get the engine up to normal temp before shutting it down...does increased fuel use for this purpose outweigh the increased maintenance cost (oil/filters)? Probably doesn't even equate when you consider the risk for engine problems resulting from accumulated condensed water vapor...you decide.

I forgot to quote the OP when I started this, but here's a copy/paste from post #21:
Just to clear things up a bit, my duramax gets about 20 to 21 mpg on highway and about 16 to 18 in town. As just a general all purpose vehicle, I'd occasionally be using it for pulling stuff an pushing stuff. Both are really good for both. The gas one gets shitty mpg on both town and highway. I personally think the diesel is the way to go 
END copy/paste

Here's the heart of where I'm heading with all of this. Look at the monthly cost for diesel and gas below based 1,000 miles/month...I split the difference between city/hwy for the duramax and threw in an estimate for the gasser based on my experience and what others get in my area with a 2500 Chevy 350ci Vortec 4x4. Read the data, run the calculations yourself if you think I made an error (I cut many decimal points off the values), but pay close attention to the difference in fuel cost (%) and ultimately the final _cost ratio_, as that is where the real results are defined in this example, not the dollar values. Lots of detail, but if you want an accurate comparison for your own purposes, this a good way to start:

Diesel:
1,000 (miles) / 18.5 (mpg) [54.054] x 3.619 (per gal) = $195.62

Gas:
1,000 (miles) / 13 (mpg) x [76.923] 2.679 (per gal) = $206.08

Difference of fuel cost per gallon (%):
3.619 / 2.679 = 35.0877%

Overall fuel cost ratio, diesel over gas:
0.949243 : 1 [195.62 / 206.08]

Going back to 2012 when diesel was over $4/gal and gas was over $3/gal in our area, things look a bit differently.

Diesel:
1,000 / 18.5 [54.054] x 4.219 = $228.05

Gas:
1,000 / 13 [76.923] x 3.599 = $276.85

Difference of fuel cost per gallon (%):
4.219 / 3.599 = 17.227%

Overall fuel cost ratio, diesel over gas:
0.823731 : 1 [228.05 / 276.85]

As this clearly shows, it's not so much the price per gallon of the fuel that saves you the most money, it's the lack of spread or least amount of difference between the cost of each that really effects your cost savings on diesel over gas (to a point...if both dropped to, lets say, $1/gal these values will change drastically, but...point?...$1/gal?...never gonna happen), as long as diesel remains higher priced, with similar numbers on the comparisons above (changes in fuel economy values will reflect changes in the ratios). I think we can agree that if diesel were the same price or lower than gas, there would be a much larger cost savings for motor fuel by driving a diesel instead of gas, no? If price per gallon were the same and you use less diesel, then the fuel economy would be the only factor effecting overall monthly fuel cost.

Sure, you may ask how many 3/4-ton gas pickup trucks will actually get the 13 mpg in mixed highway/city driving??? Maybe not that many, but maybe more than we think and I won't even debate it with anyone..that's not the point. I used that value based on what the OP stated, but he didn't come right out a say what it got for mpg. My 2500 suburban w/345HP 6.0L gets less than 10 in winter and 12-14 in summer with mixed driving similar to what's described above, and 15-16 hwy/summer (16 on a _really_ good day), but that's my personal experience and not towing anything...this rig is geared and powered for towing and hauling just like a 2500 pickup (10,700lb max trailer weight, 5,758 curb & 8,600 GVW). Your vehicle, weather conditions and driving habits will vary from mine, obviously. The point is this: less cost difference in the two fuels equates to the most cost savings to drive a diesel, as long as diesel remains at a higher price over gas. There will be a break-even point in any comparison, and while the above calculations are just an example, if you took the time to read and understand the numbers and other factors I mentioned, I think your imagination has already led you to begin thinking a bit deeper towards more tangible values which would more closely represent your own personal experiences and what you could expect to see in true values when comparing the diesel to gas vehicles, and that's the intention behind this post. If I failed to accomplish that with anyone, let me know what you don't understand, or disagree with...the numbers are there (run them yourself and see the results), so that's pretty difficult to dispute, IMHO. My personal experiences I described are just that...things I've seen and done...can't debate them, either...you really can only attempt to reason with the what ifs and whys, and I think I do that pretty well.

Carry on, good people, carry on.


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## Tirediron

The pictures show a pavement princess and one of the best trucks chevy ever made. 
Some duramax trucks work and some don't 

A friend of mine has an 06 3500 duramax it burns a lot of fuel and always needs parts, steering and brakes mostly, but as far as i have seen it is not a truck I would want to own. 

I seriously doubt that a modern diesel is as economical to own as a modern gas , but it all comes down to personal prefference, that is why 3 major manufacturers have people who own their product saying that the one of their choice is the best. 

If you want to pull it is hard to beat 1000 cubic inches of caterpillar


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## ihaveMANHIDE

Tirediron said:


> The pictures show a pavement princess and one of the best trucks chevy ever made.
> Some duramax trucks work and some don't
> 
> A friend of mine has an 06 3500 duramax it burns a lot of fuel and always needs parts, steering and brakes mostly, but as far as i have seen it is not a truck I would want to own.
> 
> I seriously doubt that a modern diesel is as economical to own as a modern gas , but it all comes down to personal prefference, that is why 3 major manufacturers have people who own their product saying that the one of their choice is the best.
> 
> If you want to pull it is hard to beat 1000 cubic inches of caterpillar


No dude lol definitely not a pavement princess. I have fox shocks on there for a reason. And it ain't for show.


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## zombieresponder

PackerBacker said:


> Must have been some dam fuzzy math.


I don't remember the numbers, but the difference in fuel prices was a little more than the last time I cared enough to pay attention.

The math is pretty simple. The price of fuel seems to change daily here and I don't even try to keep up, so I'll just say that gas is sixty cents cheaper than diesel per gallon. That happens to be pretty close to the difference in the current national average prices. The price difference here is greater. Gas was $3.15 when I filled up yesterday and diesel was $4 something. Let's say the diesel gets 21, the gas gets 17, and we're going 100 miles.

Diesel: 100/21 = 4.76 gallons x $3.60 = $17.14
Gas: 100/17 = 5.88 gallons x $3.00 = $17.65


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## cowboyhermit

The only reason I would/do use a gasoline engine and not a diesel is because of availability (of the motor in the intended application), initial cost (diesels will be cheaper in the long run but upfront cost can be daunting), or theoretically weight I guess.

The economic argument to me is moot, even if it cost me more for fuel I would not go back to gasoline.
We used to have gasoline tractors, swathers, combines, you name it, from carbureted to fuel injected it doesn't matter they just don't compare it terms of reliability, durability, value retention, etc, etc.
Yes there are exceptions, definitely some bad diesel engines but I can name just as many gasoline ones.

As for the warm-up and cold weather issues I could write a book on it. -40 is regular occurrence and have seen much colder. Diesels are harder to start in the cold, it takes more power to crank them, once you overcome that fact, which is easy, they regain all their advantages.

The water issues you describe are a very particular problem and have no real bearing on the diesel versus gasoline issue. A high quality HDEO is all you really need but in a lot of our engines we are now running shell t6 5/40, works great year round and excellent if you want to extend the hours/miles between changes.


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## k10macosta

For off roading I prefer gas, for a couple reasons. diesel trucks are very heavy and like to sink down in mud and all that torque will dig a very big hole. Their low end torque will break tires in any kind of off road surface very easily. Also if you go through any kind of mud and don't have time to wash your intercooler which sits low and collects lots of dirt, it will not be able to get rid of all that heat and bad things happen to hot turbos. A chevy small block weighs about 600 lbs, a cummins 12v long block with all the trimmins weighs about 1,100 lbs. that's a lot more weight on the front of the truck. off roading with my buddies my k10 with a shackle flip beats all those new shiny pretty lifted trucks with name brand lifts and pretty shocks. what beats me is little jeep cj5s because they are so light they just float over whatever


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## cowboyhermit

Hopefully people won't be "offroading" in a emergency, by that I mean playing in the mud and rocks. It should be more of a point A to point B situation. With that in mind I drive "offroad" every day, when we have to we go through mud, water, 4"trees , 3 feet of snow, whatever. Usually I find that extra weight a good thing, it is a four wheel drive after all. If you have to pull something or put a lot of weight on the back end like in an emergency situation some extra in the front is nice.

Light can be great though, I had some old rangers with slightly over sized tires that were awesome.


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## LincTex

There are a lot of apples being compared to bananas and oranges in this thread. 

When i was looking to ditch the 400M in my F250, I had initially started looking for an Isuzu 4BDT 3.9 liter from an NPR truck. I didn't even know about the Cummins 4BT-3.9 at that time. 

I went from 10-11 MPG on gas to 24-25 MPG on diesel. Now go run your math numbers again. My 16' trailer is almost always being pulled behind it.

I know a guy in my dept. that has a 90's dually 3500 with Cummins power, he says he also gets 24-25 MPG. When you pull a lot of trailer miles each year, the savings add up. If you are just getting groceries, don't waste your money.


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## PackerBacker

LincTex said:


> There are a lot of apples being compared to bananas and oranges in this thread.


No kidding.



zombieresponder said:


> Let's say the diesel gets 21, the gas gets 17, and we're going 100 miles.


What engines are you comparing here?

I don't have to say, I know that my powerstroke vs a V10 gets almost 17 vs just over 10.

I will use 16 and 10 to stay on the conservative side.

and your right there is a 60 cent spread in fuel prices but it's 3.29 vs 3.89.

3.90/16= 24.375 cents per mile.
3.30/10= 33 cents per mile.

or 8.625 cents difference.

I'd have to detune the PSD to even make it fair comparison. I could get better mileage yet then.


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## Mr. G

So I found my on w solution to the gas / diesel dilemma

I had a 1999 Superduty Powerstroke for 11 years. Overall average mileage was 17. I could just hit 20 on the highway on cruise control at 60 mph. It was my DD and I put 200k miles on it doing all repairs and maintenance myself. At 200k I was starting to get some fuel cackle and rough running and I had dealt with too many electrical and sensor issues to keep it. Injectors were $300 to $400 each times 8 and were getting tired.

My solution and 8 year plan: I found a low mileage (62k) 1999 Dodge 2500 V-10 4x4 club cab with full dealer maintenance records, dual tanks (70 gal), dual optima batts, Class V hitch and brake controller and a few other goodies for under $6k. Gas mileage 9 around town, 12 on the highway and 7 towing my toy hauler.

I also bought a Honda Insight hybrid brand new for $21k OTD. I drive the Honda as my DD and only use the truck for truck stuff. The Honda goes 20k miles per year, the truck under 5K. The Honda has averaged 46 MPG since new 2 years ago.

Total investment $27k. Expected lifespan for both 8 years and 200k to 250k miles driven between them in 8 years. Total gas for both approximately 900 gallons per year into 25k miles = 27 MPG average gas mileage.

Works for me. The Honda should be pretty trouble free and the truck will only have 100k miles after the 8 years so likely no major issues. And if one vehicle is down, I have the other to chase parts.

Gregg


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## PackerBacker

mike_dippert said:


> So all you 20+ mpg guys, what's your city mpg, empty truck? Its my understanding 10-13mpg is the norm.


I never see less than 14 unless I am towing 15k+.


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## cnsper

23 is my average for the diesel. I never do enough "City" driving but then most of my driving is under 55 mph. 

It is not just the truck and what you drive but also how you drive. If I drive 75 mph, the highway speed limit here I will end up owing the truck some gas. If I drive 55 mph, I can squeeze 12-14 mpg out of that old 318. That truck is 30 years old, how come you can't get double that 30 years later on the new trucks? The answer is that if you do make that happen, you castrate the truck. V6 in a 1/2 ton truck anyone?


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## Gravlore

Gasoline in my climate. Diesels without being plugged in do not start worth a darn, that is unless you can get it running with ether which isnt really recommended. -18, feels like -36 with the windchill. 

Personally though I like diesels during normal times.


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## LincTex

mike_dippert said:


> So all you 20+ mpg guys, what's your city mpg, empty truck?


My city MPG is excellent, right around 23-24 MPG. It isn't the stop and go driving that hurts me, its aerodynamics (like a brick) and high speed.

My worst (empty) mileage is always at highway speeds with a strong headwind. If I drive like my grandpa did (50 mph) with a tailwind, I can knock down 27-28 MPG.



Mr. G said:


> I drive the Honda as my DD and only use the truck for truck stuff. The Honda has averaged 46 MPG since new 2 years ago.


Well, crap - - now that we are comparing apples to mangoes, I'll throw in that my Harley Davidson gets 56 MPG and gets driven when it isn't raining, so neener neener neener!!!!


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## HamiltonFelix

For quite a while, I wanted a diesel, maybe a mid 90's Dodge Cummins, something reliable and more economical. But the fact is I own a 1986 Supercab F250 4x4 with a carbureted 460 gas engine.

The 460 is close to being the ultimate gas hog, but I discovered a basic fact:

Even for a country boy who doesn't believe in life without pickups, *I don't use it very often.* Most of our errands can be accomplished with a small car and small trailer. And if the 4x8 behind the Corolla won't do it, the 16' car trailer behind the ex-cop Crown Vic will pick up most of the slack.

I only start the F250 when I have a reason, like a pallet of concrete mix or an actual car on my car trailer.

So:

I don't run it very often.

And it's paid for.

That means, don't spend more money on a pickup. Gas mileage doesn't matter if you don't drive it very often. Even engine longevity is much less of an issue. Let my wife squeeze 40 mpg out of the Corolla (she can when she gets real gas instead of gasohol). Use any of our other vehicles, from the DL650 adventure bike to the Crown Vic. Use the 10 mpg gas hog only when necessary.

Spend my scarce dollars where they are more needed. I love trucks, but it's a big metal box on wheels for moving heavy things. That's all.


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## cowboyhermit

Not just for moving heavy things around, also for getting you places the car cannot, pulling the car or whatever out when stuck, hauling the car down the road if need be, pulling implements if need be (harrowing, seeding, pulling post pounder, etc.), chasing livestock, and also basically doing whatever the car can, though with a bit more fuel or a lot more with a 460 
Don't get me wrong, I am all for having a vehicle that fits the purpose, on the farm we have MANY but pickup trucks are amazingly versatile.


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## LincTex

HamiltonFelix said:


> the 16' car trailer behind the ex-cop Crown Vic


Bloody hell!



HamiltonFelix said:


> Use the 10 mpg gas hog only when necessary... it's a big metal box on wheels for moving heavy things.


Good point.


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## HamiltonFelix

I agree with your points, cowboyhermit. And it reminds me I need to get my ex-Navy 1966 International 1300 series 4x4 back on the road. I have done a LOT with that truck and its 10,000 lb. PTO winch. But lately I haven't needed a heavy hauler very often. 

Don't worry, LincTex, I don't actually haul cars behind the Crown Vic. I have seen photos on CrownVic.net of a Vic pulling a car trailer with another Vic on it. And I do have a class III equalizing hitch. But I use a truck for heavy work. The Vic is fine to move the trailer when I just need to pick up a few boards or sticks of pipe that are too long for the small trailer. 

And yep, the truck is for getting me places. So is the Grand Cherokee with 5½ inch Rock Krawler suspension. I learned a long time ago that I could pull more with my one ton 4x4 than with Dad's farm tractor. All four of our "regular" rigs have receiver hitches, three of them 2" and one 1¼" and I'm working to improve on that. I want the truck and Jeep to have 2" receivers on both ends, so they can take a winch on either end. 

Give my choice, I'd have all diesel, nothing with electronic fuel control, and plenty of spare parts and fuel laid in. I use PRI fuel stabilizer in gas and diesel. 

But present budget says run what have have now that's paid for, and lay in a little stabilized "real" gasoline that we can still get from a 76 station. 

Maybe I can at least put a couple of the old points & condenser rigs back in shape. The ex-Atomic Energy Commission 1956 S120 series International 4x4 hasn't run for a while. I like that rig.


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## LincTex

HamiltonFelix said:


> Maybe I can at least put a couple of the old points & condenser rigs back in shape.


I wouldn't make it a priority. I doubt we will be forced (ever) to rely only on points & condenser vehicles.


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## HamiltonFelix

Let's hope not. Perhaps I'm still reacting from reading One Second After. That, and I have seen an otherwise perfect and untouched modern vehicled TOTALLED because lightning struck a tree near where it was parked and fried all its electronics. I still miss the simple little diesel Yanmar tractor that I lost in my divorce. 

I've never really minded points & condenser rigs, but I recognize from experience that the older rigs required more regular maintenance. Modern rigs are more complicated to work on (I resisted buying an OBD code reader as long as I could), but don't need the frequent and regular tune-ups, chassis lubes, etc. Everything is a trade-off. If I ever retire, I'll have more time to enjoy owning the older rigs.


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