# Master Gardners



## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

I, on occasion have problems in my garden that I need help with and one of my options is to go to the local Agricultural Extension Office and ask the Master Gardeners that are in the office several days a week.

They are usually no(or very little) help. It seems that they have no answers to common vegetable growing problems. Ask them about Roses or Begonias and they will talk your ear off but I have had a number of issues in the past that I had to resolve on my, I have just lost confidence in the "Texas Master Gardener" program.

Has anyone else had an experience like this? I must be in a county where I am about the only person that grows a "Food Garden".


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## goatlady (Nov 7, 2011)

The national Master Gardener program is geared almost totally toward ornamental gardening NOT food gardening and rarely any organic methods. Main reason I never paticipated and became one. They are basically useless to food gardeners.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

goatlady said:


> The national Master Gardener program is geared almost totally toward ornamental gardening NOT food gardening and rarely any organic methods. Main reason I never paticipated and became one. They are basically useless to food gardeners.


Without appearing to bash Master Gardeners, That makes them pretty much useless to me! You cant eat many ornamentals and organics are always my first choice.


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## SimpleJoys (Apr 28, 2012)

Try Howard Garrett's dirtdoctor.com. A lot of information is available free, including the recipes for most of the products he sells. His radio show is broadcast in much of Texas on Sunday mornings and is available by podcast. Howard is in the Dallas area, but his show has become nationwide in scope. It's also started to deal a lot more with health issues in people, but there is still a lot of gardening advice. He has some books, too.

There's a guy in Austin who also does a radio show on organic gardening. I don't remember his name, but googling would probably bring it up. I heard him speak a few years at a conference and was quite impressed. He had a nursery in Austin or San Antonio.


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

Sounds like the ones around here also. I called them a few times (early on) and went over to their office once. 

And I agree they are heavy on the Pesticides, Herbicides and Chemical Fertilizer ...


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## Emerald (Jun 14, 2010)

I never wasted my time and energy on becoming a master gardener.. most of them that I've met and talked to well... I know more than anyhoo. between my family being farmers and always having huge gardens for food and my own 20+ years of gardening the last 15 of which have been solely organic. Plus the years working in the greenhouse industry I usually don't have too many problems answering questions about or area or troubles. that being said.. I never stop learning and learn new things each year and try new stuff.. also that being said.. I have had good years and bad years. no matter how good a gardener you are. Mother loves to smack ya now and again. too wet one year/too hot one year/too cold etc. and I have had some real dismal gardens before. I've also grown stuff that "couldn't" be grown here too.. it is all in the prep and stubbornness of the gardener ya know!!


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

SimpleJoys said:


> Try Howard Garrett's dirtdoctor.com. A lot of information is available free, including the recipes for most of the products he sells. His radio show is broadcast in much of Texas on Sunday mornings and is available by podcast. Howard is in the Dallas area, but his show has become nationwide in scope. It's also started to deal a lot more with health issues in people, but there is still a lot of gardening advice. He has some books, too.
> 
> There's a guy in Austin who also does a radio show on organic gardening. I don't remember his name, but googling would probably bring it up. I heard him speak a few years at a conference and was quite impressed. He had a nursery in Austin or San Antonio.


I've butted heads with Howard Garrett, I am a member of his forum but have not been back there in while. He seems to be able to tell you what is wrong but is short on practical advice on how to fix things on a large scale.

One of my big bones with him is that, on his radio show, he will have people calling in describing problems with plants and then gives "Solutions" to the problems on the air. You post a question on his forum describing a plants symptoms and his response is "Send a soil sample to Edinburg and tell me what the results are".

By the time you get the results back the plants are usually dead, also, with an analysis I can figure out my own answers to the problems. Its not cheap for those analysis and there is not a quick turn around.

Many of his pest remedies are not effective and if they do have merit, are not practical on a large scale. Its not possible to examine each leaf of every squash plant in my garden for Squash Bugs when you have 200+ feet of rows with several hundred vining plants.

I cant believe that he encourages "Butterflys" in your gardens, in Flower Gardens they may be great. But the Caterpillars(Black Swollow Tail) will decimate a stand of dill, fennel or parsley overnight.

Well, I've ranted enough about Mr. Garrett, but thank you for the response, it is appreciated.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

Emerald said:


> I never wasted my time and energy on becoming a master gardener.. most of them that I've met and talked to well... I know more than anyhoo. between my family being farmers and always having huge gardens for food and my own 20+ years of gardening the last 15 of which have been solely organic. Plus the years working in the greenhouse industry I usually don't have too many problems answering questions about or area or troubles. that being said.. I never stop learning and learn new things each year and try new stuff.. also that being said.. I have had good years and bad years. no matter how good a gardener you are. Mother loves to smack ya now and again. too wet one year/too hot one year/too cold etc. and I have had some real dismal gardens before. I've also grown stuff that "couldn't" be grown here too.. it is all in the prep and stubbornness of the gardener ya know!!


I considered it until I found that "Food Gardening" was only a minor sidebar in the program.

I also prefer to diagnose my own problems and rarely seek outside help, I grew up gardening and farming and am capable of figuring things out for myself, if time is a factor then I may go for help, but it is very frustrating when you have to educate the MG at the extension office so they can answer your questions.

I am still waiting on an email answer on 2 questions I asked them in person almost a week ago at the Extension Office. The plants are dying and I dont know if it is a nutrient problem, a disease or a pest problem. I am getting it narrowed down myself and will likely have my answer before I get any feedback.

Oh Well, I feel a Rant coming on so I will just call it quits now......


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## siletz (Aug 23, 2011)

I have not looked into their training, but have not been impressed with their knowledge when I have talked to our local Master Gardeners. It has not seemed worth the effort to go through the program.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

siletz said:


> I have not looked into their training, but have not been impressed with their knowledge when I have talked to our local Master Gardeners. It has not seemed worth the effort to go through the program.


I just got the email reply back about 5 minutes ago(after 6 days), Daing, that was a wasted endeavor!

One of the questions I had was about an issue I was having with a less than vigorous growth in a new squash verity I planted, his response was they are not getting enough sun. A tomato question answered with "Early Blight" - not even close... either of them.

I really wonder how these guys passed any type of course on gardening. Even if Vegetable Gardening is a sidebar, they at least should know some basics. I guess my expectations are a little high, I just assumed that someone who had formal training would know at least a little more than I do on a subject.

Question: Should I just write them off as an information resource or should I go and call them to task on the advice?

Any suggestions?


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## Emerald (Jun 14, 2010)

Going on just the facts you put up now I'd say that the new type of squash may not care for your area.. I have had that problem before.. the only thing that helped was a side dressing of really good compost.. squash are big feeders. Also if it is drooping during the day and starting to go a big yellow but perks a bit at night.. start looking for the dreaded "Squash vine borer" and get a long needle(sharp) and at night look along the stems for holes and frass and use a flash light to "back light" the vine and you can see the little boogers in there and you can just poke them to death.. Yup.. I do provide entertainment for the neighbors.. they all wonder what the heck I am doing in the garden at night with the huge upholstery needle.. Texas sometimes has really "salts/mineral laden soils" and adding that compost will help a bit with that.
On the tomato.. without more descriptions it is really hard. like purpleing leaves or reddish leaves or even yellow leaves with green veins can all be mineral overloads or mineral deficiencies. and it is hard to say which is which. I do have several books about deficiencies and after I come back from watching the kids if you can take a quick pic I will try to look it up for ya... I also think that sometimes you just get a clicker in the mix.. I had about 20 of one type of tomato one year and one plant out of all the rest just didn't thrive.. I'm thinking poor genetics on one seed. it happens.. I've also had all the same tomatoes before and had one fruit abnormally.. had huge deep ridges like it was precut or something.. every fruit. tasted okay but who knows what happened there. well I better get going or I'll be late!!


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

Well Ms Emerald, I will call on your expertise and provide some more specifics! I suspect that the problem is mineral deficiencies, I have marginal/fair soil and I have been working on it for about 10 years now but the going is slow with a 3/4 acre plot.

I think the purplish color and stunted growth in a few random(tomato) plants(scattered through the garden) is a phosphorus deficiency, the curling leaves could be various other deficiencies. Their is little or no chlorosis(initially, appears just before the plant dies) in leaves except in a few places on the oldest growth but I suspect that is Early Blight trying to get started. I have cut and burned those leaves, their are no leaves touching the ground and I use a soaker hose to prevent the leaves from getting wet. I have also made sure there is plenty of air space with no leaves at the base of each plant. If you look at the several ailing plants(out of 100+) the symptoms could be attributed to numerous mineral shortages but the question I have is why do they appear all at once(and rapidly end up killing the plant) when all the plants around them are apparently healthy and productive. On one test plant I scattered potash and bone meal at the base and watered it in and the decline has seemed to halt but its too early to tell yet if the plant will recover. I understand that I may just bad genes in a few plants but I have noticed this problem on and off since I started the garden 10 years ago, never in the same spot and the plants around them always were healthy except in one case several years ago when two plants, side by side, withered and died.

I planted Black Eye Peas and Hubbard Squash(photo taken about 3 weeks ago) in an area where I had several tomatoes die last year and they are thriving, some of the Hubbards are about 25 pounds so far and still getting bigger and the foliage is healthy except in one plant that had a vine borer and its recovering now. 


The Squash(yellow crookneck) that are showing poor growth, are a verity popular in this area and they are planted next to Zucchini(picture taken about 3 weeks ago) that are thriving. Some of the the crooknecks seem to go soft and rot at the blossom end and I suspect that could be a calcium shortage. I have fertilized them with a Liquid Fish/Liquid Seaweed mixture and that seems to perk them up temporarily but they will not thrive. Their is some Chloris spread uniformly over he leaves(the MG said that was normal highly suspect it is a symptom of a problem though). The plants bloom and set fruit but some only get about as long as your finger, proportional to to the size of the plant and about 1/2 or more do not grow to maturity. The picture shows a leaf of the Crookneck next to a Zucchini that was growing 2 12 feet away.

I guess that is enough for now, over all my garden is healthy(only about 4 tomato plants out of 100+) and productive but these few problems I have noted really irritate me. It eats my lunch that I cant figure out what is causing them, unsure if it is something that can spread to the rest of the garden or if it is like you said, random bad "genes".

It does perturb me that the MG's who were educated by my tax dollars(in Texas, dont know about other states) are of no/little help, not to mention clueless about the causes. I feel that they haven't a clue and think I am not intelligent enough to know that I am being BSed. I completely dug up a 3 foot tall tomato plant that is almost dead(one of the sick ones that suddenly fell ill) that was healthy 2 weeks ago, put it in a bucket and I am going to take the whole thing to them tomorrow so their can be no doubt that they are getting the full range of symptoms(photos attached). I am wondering what they will diagnose it as then.


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## Emerald (Jun 14, 2010)

Wow that is a big difference on the squash leaves... have you had problems with Root-Knot Nematodes? they can really cause a plant to not take up nutrients and cause them not to thrive. 
Also on the fruits rotting on the ends.. if they don't get pollinated properly they will rot like that too. do you hand pollinate? I go out on rainy mornings and hand pollinate and if it is cool (well you probably don't have that problem! ). At least with yellow crooknecks you should have plenty of time to run out and plant another bunch in a different area and still get a decent crop.. here I am just going out to plant this week. had to buy some seed as squashes are one of the plants I don't save seed from only due to me being busy. I know how to do it and have done it before but just don't feel it this past couple years. and ran out of all my own stock.

The tomatoes tho.. man there are about three things that pop to mind right off. Verticillium Wilt but that is mainly a cool weather thing, powdery mildew which is controllable and Phosphorus Deficiency which you already suspect. I just looked them all up to make sure and all three really do fit parts of what I can see. I'd say phosphorus deficiency if the affected plants were all in the same spot.. but possible poor genetics if they were randomly scattered. or even the Verticillium wilt as that can enter the plants thru damaged areas.
I grow up 6 foot tall fencing and we get the blight here easily so I often clip the lower branches when the plants get bigger that way no soil gets splashed up onto the plants.. 
I'm hoping that the plants here do okay as it has been a bit cool starting. it is only about 60 here right now and breezy. but in Michigan the hot is normally right around the corner!!


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## goatlady (Nov 7, 2011)

Master gardener origins..."The first Master Gardener program was founded by Washington State University Cooperative Extension in the greater Seattle area to meet a high demand for urban horticulture and gardening advice. "


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

I'm not familiar with Root-Knot Nematodes, I have heard of them but know nothing about them so I cant rule that out. The pollination could be an issue, we have not had many honey bees around here this year, many people destroy wild hives in fear of "Killer Bees". They dont realize what they are doing, you can coexist with them if you take just a few precautions. When we lived in South Texas there were a lot of them and only those who were totally ignorant of their habits had problems. In general if you leave them alone they will leave you alone. Yellow Jackets are harder to get along with than Killer Bees.

Here, it is too late to replant the yellow squash. Time wise it is OK but the grasshoppers will decimate the tender young plants as the peek up through the dirt. Thats OK though, we eat mostly Zucchini anyway. I just cant figure out that problem I am having with them though, my Hubbard and Pink Banana and all the rest are thriving. I have Hubbards that are over 25 pounds so far and have leaves over waist high. My dad planted those yellow's last year and he had a bumper crop.

On the tomatoes, only 4 or 5 plants out of 100+ are effected so it is not a critical issue. I dont know what Verticillium is, I will look it up and check that out tomorrow(or later today). I scattered and watered in "Rock Phosphate" on one tomato row that had a sick plant in it and will follow that closely. The MG said the sick tomato plants I had were Blight victims, again, not possible, the three photos are of how I trim the base of the plants to avoid it. I will just watch and see how the phosphorus works. I agree that a phosphorus deficiency would be a likely cause but the plants are scattered and none are in a single location(if I remember right).



Emerald said:


> Wow that is a big difference on the squash leaves... have you had problems with Root-Knot Nematodes? they can really cause a plant to not take up nutrients and cause them not to thrive.
> Also on the fruits rotting on the ends.. if they don't get pollinated properly they will rot like that too. do you hand pollinate? I go out on rainy mornings and hand pollinate and if it is cool (well you probably don't have that problem! ). At least with yellow crooknecks you should have plenty of time to run out and plant another bunch in a different area and still get a decent crop.. here I am just going out to plant this week. had to buy some seed as squashes are one of the plants I don't save seed from only due to me being busy. I know how to do it and have done it before but just don't feel it this past couple years. and ran out of all my own stock.
> 
> The tomatoes tho.. man there are about three things that pop to mind right off. Verticillium Wilt but that is mainly a cool weather thing, powdery mildew which is controllable and Phosphorus Deficiency which you already suspect. I just looked them all up to make sure and all three really do fit parts of what I can see. I'd say phosphorus deficiency if the affected plants were all in the same spot.. but possible poor genetics if they were randomly scattered. or even the Verticillium wilt as that can enter the plants thru damaged areas.
> ...


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## ContinualHarvest (Feb 19, 2012)

Our MG office runs a "Grow It, Eat It" program. It's VERY focused on fruits and veggies. That's where I volunteer.
The tomatoes may be a a victim of a nutrient deficiency. Here is a link to a product I like. Neptune's Harvest - via Amazon.com There are a few makers of similar products. Use what you like.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

ContinualHarvest said:


> Our MG office runs a "Grow It, Eat It" program. It's VERY focused on fruits and veggies. That's where I volunteer.
> The tomatoes may be a a victim of a nutrient deficiency. Here is a link to a product I like. Neptune's Harvest - via Amazon.com There are a few makers of similar products. Use what you like.


Maybe you could send us your MG on loan to educate ours.


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