# The fire team concept



## Geistmacher (Sep 24, 2011)

First the concept.
The fire team is composed of a group of five people. On the team is two riflemen, armed with M16 rifles. Two Grenadiers armed with M16-M203 Grenade Launchers, and one machine gunner.

It is understood that you will not likely have the weapons listed above, but the concept is still valid. 

That said, let us look at how this concept of five can improve survival for you.

If you are alone, but well prepared. You may able to move quickly and nearly invisibly. If you are detected and attacked, just two other people can outflank you and take you down with little risk to themselves. If you have a small group of five, armed and prepared, it will take many people with great attrition to take you down. A small group of five can move very quickly if needed and remain nearly invisible. The group can carry what an individual can not. The group can climb and cross what an individual can not. The group can care for the injured, and the sick, and the weak. 

It is wise to have several small and well prepared groups of five people, with several points of muster in times of great trouble. The groups should have several means to communicate even without technology, to muster when the time comes. Communication security should be followed. Keep in mind that any system of communication can be intercepted. 

My opinion for what it is worth.

Geist
:ghost:

As Julius crossed the Rubicon, so has Obama with the NDAA. The Republic has fallen. No one seems to have noticed.


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## Ponce (May 3, 2009)

All that I need is my rifle with 3/4 load of powder in the ammo (bullets) and with a sound suppresor and my 10-22 also with a suppresor.......also my good old bow and arrow would do......how can they shoot what they cannot see? :nuts:......I know, I know....but it is who I am and what I just to do.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

Geistmacher said:


> First the concept.
> The fire team is composed of a group of five people. On the team is two riflemen, armed with M16 rifles. Two Grenadiers armed with M16-M203 Grenade Launchers, and one machine gunner.
> 
> It is understood that you will not likely have the weapons listed above, but the concept is still valid.
> ...


I will have to agree with you on the small fire team concept. 5 to 7 members on a team with as much training as possible in small team tactics, such as movement, hand communication, fire control, bounding over watch, and general patrol procedures to name a few, is definately a greater asset than one or two people attempting to secure and patrol a BOL or hold off any attacking force.

I realize that for most folks it would be very hard or next to impossible to come up with a 5 to 7 person team that think and feel the way you do or that you can totally trust. You will also need at least on person on that team that has training and experience to lead and train the team members.

I am not saying that the idea of a fire team is impossible to achieve, I am just saying that if you don't have something in place by now, then IMO it won't be easy to pull off.

Also DO NOT disregard the abilities of the Women to be a part of a fire team, IMO you would be making a very big mistake. If you think you need more information on Women in a combat role then check out the history of Women in the Israeli army just to name one.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

oldvet ... very good response. Also remember that to stop or get pinned down is to die, even with a small group, (unless you have someone to come to your rescue ... SOON!). Stay mobile.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

mosquitomountainman said:


> oldvet ... very good response. Also remember that to stop or get pinned down is to die, even with a small group, (unless you have someone to come to your rescue ... SOON!). Stay mobile.


Yep, I agree totally unless you have an overwhelming force and or overwhelming fire power, or as you said a rescue ("Mike Force") force to come to your rescue, a static defense will get you killed.

I have said it before and I think it bears repeating. If you have to bug out to save yourself or your group then don't hesitate, do it and you will be alive to possibly retake what you lost.
Remember (that if possible) you should have emergency cache's hidden in the general area and you should establish one or more emergency rally points in case someone gets seperated from the group.


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## jungatheart (Feb 2, 2010)

In basic training they gave 5 of us tracers for our semi auto M-14's and said to shoot at what they told us. They said to just start shooting on the command and compensate while still shooting. 

I was in awe at what 5 guys just slinging lead downrange could destroy and how quickly they could destroy it. Most fun I had in basic except throwing hand grenades.


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

Some great points and valid observations.

As the original poster noted, most of us will not have those particular weapons available; I think the gist of the lesson is to ensure that one does not put all of one's eggs in one basket. Diversity in capability is important. Five people with sniper rifles won't be well equiped to handle close combat situations. Likewise, five people with tactical shotguns would not be prepard to handle a target at range. It is important to consider versatility.


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## Claymore5150 (Nov 17, 2011)

A couple of my thoughts on these things, most of them absolutely reinforce what oldvet says...

Unless the folks on the team are HEAVILY trained in team and squad tactics, they could be more of a hindrance than effective fighting force. 

Even though there are SOP's and generalized training doctrine in small unit operations and movement to contact for military units, there are learning curves based on the actual Team and Squad for new members, regardless of how highly trained or how often they have been put in that position. 
This is a learning curve for personnel who do these things on a daily basis. 
Johnny rottenSEAL could take a few days or even weeks to acclimate to how RangerJoe's fire team operates together, and visa versa. 
I say this because cats like those know exactly what is going on with generalized/basic team&squad tactics and have probably been involved with numerous versions of each throughout their career. 

One cannot expect to team up with neighbor Joe, best friend Jake, and Jenny from the block with her 14 yr old son to be an effective patrolling fighting force unless they have been trained what to do, how to do it, and practice it A LOT. Just getting them to learn how to deal with a malfunction under duress can sometimes be a challenge.

On paper a 5 to 7 person fire team IS an effective force. That's why doctrine has it set up that way for our professional soldiers/marines/airmen/sailors. This is also in effect because of Force Multipliers. Full auto and/or burst is a force multiplier, as are grenades, good communications, over-watch, etc. 

A "Post Fan" civilian/family/neighborhood militia-style patrol MIGHT be better suited with running 2 and/or 3 person teams with a distant over-watch that can reach out and touch someone and still be able to observe/report to the patrol and, if need be, add some direct fire and communicate movement instructions (safe outs/retreats/break from contact info) from a safe vantage point. 

1 person is easy to flank, 2 people become much harder to flank, and when you have three people they can objectively fire and shift fire to movement and become extremely hard to flank. Having more than 3 people just gives more weaponry to put rounds on target and it also gives some advantage because the extra legs on the ground can be used, in turn, to flank the opposing force and/or create intersecting fields of fire/crossfire.

Side notes: I use the term "overwatch" in this blurb meaning someone keeping watch from a safe distance at a somewhat higher altitude perspective (hillside/tree/tower/roof/upper floor window) with Binos/spotting scope/optics that can view the ops area and surrounding area. 

A "Bounding Overwatch" which is used correctly in above threads, is a team/squad movement-to-contact where one side provides covering fire while the other side BOUNDS/goes forward en masse quickly into positions where they can create cover fire for the team that just covered them so that they can move forward...so on and so forth. 

Just a little explanation for those who may not know or not understand the terminology being used in this discussion. 

One can only hope that they have the time and personnel to properly equip and train multiple 5-7 person fire teams in a "post-fan" situation. The physical work load per person goes up exponentially...stress levels will be at their max and Mr. Murphy loves the company of stressed out folks. That's just the plain reality of it.

All of that being said, the Fire Team/Squad concept is just that....it is a concept until properly trained and put into practical application. 5-7 people running amok in mayhem and chaos, spraying and praying, are just what they are. Easy targets. 
5-7 team members working and functioning together like a well oiled machine is a totally different animal, and to fight like an animal one must train like the beast they wish to become...and then do it again, and again, and again until it is so ingrained that everything becomes absolute reflex for everyone involved in every conceivable situation. Beastly animal reflex.

"How do I, as a civilian or former REMF pogue, learn these tactics" you might ask. 

Well, if you're between 18 and 34, male, and looking for some real world knowledge, raise your hand, take the oath, and join the Army or Marine Corps infantry.
Got flat feet, back issues, or gender issues? (no offense at all intended to the ladies, as the whole no gals in the infantry thing is US GOVT policy, not mine. Best snipers in WWII were ladies, y'all keep that in mind) 
Airsoft&Paintball...find some former grunts who like to play it the way they were taught, get some equipment, make some new friends, and try to learn as much as you can from them. Get ready for some fun and pain, because you WILL get shot, a lot. Keep in mind every time you get shot, real world it's a hot fat chunk O lead traveling in excess of 1000fps, not a 6mm piece of plastic or paint traveling at 350 or less. It's disheartening, especially for the "trained" to die in a blaze of painted glory on the fields of friendly battle to jenny's 15yr old son with his tricked out $400 full-auto electric plastic projectile rig, but it happens. 

I am sure that there are probably some classes/schools out there that would be willing to give some training in these aspects, but it won't be cheap. Probably not near as much fun, nor nearly as cheap as the airsoft/paintball method.

Just my .02 in an inflated economy which, that being said, ain't worth much these days. hahaha.


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## Geistmacher (Sep 24, 2011)

*Food for tought*

Claymore5150

You are quite right about the need for training and skills development. Part of preparing for the SHTF scenario, is the training of the body, and the developing of skills. The body is your first weapon and tool for survival. You should be able to walk into the wilderness naked and come out with clothes, a weapon in your hand and a full belly. Relying on tools, and supplies will only postpone the inevitable.

My opinion for what it is worth.

Geist

Be prepared for when the reaper comes.


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## Claymore5150 (Nov 17, 2011)

Amen, brother. I agree 100% with a preparation mindset. 

The person who has the "MacGuyver" type skills and can utilize tools/stuff for optional purposes will definitely have a distinct advantage.

But, there is a caveat to that 100%, which is, I don't foresee a lot of folks with the training/skills needed to hit the wood line and be fine,. I think it's possible that about 1% or LESS of those that THINK they can, actually can make it out like that.

One dinked up ankle or eating the wrong plant/animal spells doom, especially in less than perfect weather/climate conditions.

Think Les Stroud, Dave Canterbury, Cody Lundin, Mykle Hawke, heck...throw Bear Grylls in there. 

7 days is normally what they do, documented on film. Les, Dave, Cody, and the Hawkes being the more realistic of the shows...they go out and do the stuff and in 7 days they're either....
A: sucking hind teat and thanking the survival gods that "rescue is there or imminent"
B: sucking hind teat and thanking the survival gods that "rescue is there or imminent"

That's based on 1 week or less. Could they go on doing what they do for longer periods? Depending on circumstances, probably. Heck, Cody tries to live like that most of the time, anyhow. Dave C. and Mykal Hawkes both teach/have taught survival techniques on a professional basis, both military and civilian.

Their bodies are actually acclimated to that type of hardship since they do it over and over again. Cody/Dave and The Hawkes have a hand up on Les because there are TWO of them to split the work and keep each other mentally UP for the challenge.
Bear Grylls...well...Bear is Bear. What he does on his show would NOT be considered good advice for anyone in any of those situations. Running around jumping off or across cliffs and stuff like that is only ASKING to die, realistically speaking. Some stuff is correct..most of it is chest pounding fluff for the cameras.

Are there folks with the primitive skill sets to go out, be with nature, and live fine for extended periods of time. Yes, but they are extremely few and far between and chances are, they're already out there doing it and/or teaching the primitive skills classes.

I believe that if or when something happens to disrupt the standard way of life as we know it, to go long term and survive will take "a village". Either a preformed M.A.G., a neighborhood/small community who can really pull it together, or something of that nature. 

I don't think anyone in a "basic US" neighborhood that isn't protected/patrolled will last for long. People get freaky nutso crazy when they don't have water or food (especially for their kids) and will go to any length necessary to try to survive.
A prepared family out in the boonies may last quite a bit longer, but eventually they will have to defend themselves.

A prepared community/neighborhood/MAG compound is going to have a lot better fighting chance in the long run.

I just don't see too many solos having an easy ride unless they find one of the above. 

Even if a solo DOES manage to do ok and comes out of the woods unscathed with a club in one hand, hand made bota flask in the other, and clothes stitched from every mouse/mole/tree rat/raccoon/boar/deer/fish that he/she came upon....chances are really good that someone will see those crazy eyes and steer VERY clear of that person. haha.

If I am going to be a percentage of those that survive, I want to put myself in the highest percentage bracket that I can in my surroundings.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

Geist and Claymore you both have put up excellent posts and points and I totally agree. Everything looks just "peachy" on paper and you are also right that in theory a 5 to 7 person fire team is great for patrol, strike, intel, and other somewhat sneaky missions.
In reality tho (as you said) if your team is not properly trained and experienced enough to act as a cohesive unit, you will more than likely accomplish nothing more that busting a bunch of caps and getting yourselves killed.

I deliberately didn't get into much depth about patrol procedures, overwatch (in other words a shooter in position to cover you six ways from Sunday), or really any training guidelines or procedures at all. Any and all training IMO should be done by (if at all possible) someone that has actually had first hand combat experience, or at the very least someone that has had more than just the basic infantry training.

I also agree and have said this on other posts, that using paint ball or airsoft equipment and being trained by a knowledgeable and experienced military trained instructor is an excellent way to become experienced in fire team tactics.

Train like you intend to fight and if you have to fight, then fight like you were trained.


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

A buddy of mine convinced 7 us to play paintball one hot TX afternoon this past summer. 

We were a mix of former military, police and a few without that experience. Ages ran from 28 to 36. Some had Simunitions experience. We had never seen the facility before and only two of us had ever played paintball. Our opponents were an ad hoc group of mid- and late-teens. We played over two courses; a trench/uneven terrain course and an urban/game type of course.

On the trench/terrain course it was unnerving seeing how often the teens' seemingly indiscriminate fire was making contact with our guys. They had literal home field advantage and beat the snot out of us 75% of the time. 

On the urban course we owned them; NOT ONE PERSON ON OUR TEAM was hit the entire time on that course. 

We debriefed with a few beers and unwittingly discussed our lessons.

It is physically demanding. Heart rate was high; it was high stress punctuated with many moments of panic intensity. Moving from cover to cover in the sun and heat in long sleeves and mental stress. Cross Fit serves a person VERY well with the intensity and improvised shooting positions. Those who were sucking wind after the first few minutes seemed distracted and reluctant to press the attack. 

We were again reminded how important planning, communication and BREATHING are. At the beginning of the paintball event we'd agree on planning/signals and then it'd go out the window when the firing started. It was maddening at first, especially when a few of the former combat guys went tunnel-vision/deaf. Guys finally started coming around to listening/communicating and sticking to a plan. It paid off big time.

We were also frustrated with the lack of any sights on the rental paintball guns. It took a while to learn the trajectory. A few in our group never seemed to care, just spray 'n pray.

Hydration is critical. You can't take water breaks in the real world, so a hydration pack is more than a city boy contraption.

A few of us spent the next few days in a frenzied search for realistic equipment to use in paintball; something that replicated an AR, mag changes, Picatinny rail, mag pouches, etc. We swore we'd have Aimpoint mounts and radios with throat VOX mics the next time. lol We actually found some cool paintball training gear that mimic'd ARs... but it was too expensive. 

All in all, it was a most excellent experience. Square range practice is ok for a "team", but you'll never work as such without this dimension.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

Fn/Form, if it's at all possible I would highly suggest that you switch from paint ball to Airsoft.

Airsoft guns range from thirty dollars or less to several hundred dollars. You can buy guns that look, weigh and feel the same as their real counterparts. 

The 6mm plastic BB's are almost painless (unless you are extreemly close) and really don't require you to wear any safety gear other than eye protection. The guns come in basically three power types, spring operated, gas operated, or battery operated (which is my choice).


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## Claymore5150 (Nov 17, 2011)

We were such gluttons for punishment that we would play squad on squad paintball while in garrison. 
Everything was just fine until I pulled that mask down when we were getting ready for the horn to sound....but just as soon as that mask came down, my breathing went bonkers, almost to hyperventilation. 
Something about that mask and knowing that my vision field and breathing were gonna be extremely limited while getting down and nasty against my platoon mates and brothers in arms....because I knew they were every bit as good as we were. I also knew there would be much pain...we liked to play "hot" at 375-400 fps, where the "norm" is around 325-300fps. 
Some dummy (namely ME, yours truly) took front sweep out in front of the wedge point, and there it was....in all of its glory. Their flag.
I took a few minutes laying there, quietly observing the surroundings and weighing the options. 
2nd squad was VERY aggressive on a fairly normal basis and they knew that we were painstakingly methodical in the way we went about our patrolling and movement to inevitable contact, especially against our own platoon, guys we knew and fought with (We were all OPFOR so that's ALL we did was wargames at that unit).
After not seeing ANYTHING out of the ordinary, not hearing THAT silence that you hear when there are people around and hiding out, I decided that they had probably taken to one of the sides and were going to try to catch us in one of the flanks.
My guys were still WAY back, I had at least 10 to 15 minutes lead on them and we always just cruised, so they weren't in a rush, they were hunting wabbits.
It was then that I decided to take, what I considered, a calculated risk. I could bum-rush the flag, snag it, and be back incognito within 5 seconds, flag in hand with only two full squads of trained killers between me and winning the game.....
Biggest mistake I EVER made in my military career! 
Dr. Combat jumps up, rushes the flag, has his hand is around the pvc pipe ready to grasp it....and all paintball HELL breaks loose and EVERY STINKING BIT OF IT IS AIMED AT OUR HERO!
The pain.....
I didn't even get the words, "I'm hit damnit, I'm hit!" out....it was all over. I had walked into one of most excellently crafted L-shaped ambushes that I had ever witnessed, and I had seen quite a few before that.
Luckily for me (and I say that because it could have been much worse) I was moving like a hungry jungle cat mixed with east TN timber rattler trying to get away from an extreme pentecostal....
My legs immediately failed me. Legs accustomed to humping very large packs over very large distances....they just QUIT. I dropped like a bad transmission.
I took about 18 shots into the quads, a couple to the knees, one that barely missed "the jewels", one in the elbow, one that grazed my pinky knuckle.
My vision waned, me ears went into humming mixed with heartbeat. I literally had to drag myself out of the AO. The field judge was amazed that I had no "kill shots" in my chest/head area. It didn't really matter because I thought I was quite close to death as it was...my legs a glowing neon-yellowish green, paint ball death.

Fortunately is was a really nice day and our 1SGT made sure we had coolers of some refreshing....um....canned soldier juice set up at a nearby pavilion so that we could all celebrate my untimely demise, which, according to all trigger-men present, was one of the most epic paintball deaths they had ever delivered.

My legs were bruised for over a week. That purplish-greenish bruise. My ego is still bruised to this day, but it was a valuable lesson learned at the hands of my friends and brothers. 
That lesson learned as a hard charging PFC back in the day, served me well for years to come and probably saved my life countless times afterwards. 
Knowledge through pain always ends up in long term memory. Oh man, was I in pain that day! hahaha. 

(PS...if any of my old platoon mates from 2nd Sqd are on here and reading this, you can still KMA! haha)


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

One thing paintball will do is show you the value of a full or semi-auto at close ranges and for cover fire. One thing a good "sniper" will show you is how to take out a "spray and pray" addict with one shot. (That they never saw coming!)

A good, accurate semi or full-auto is the best way to go for pretend or real combat.

I like the idea of the hyper-velocities. Make it hurt and the lesson will stay. Too many people play paintball and get careless. There's no second life in the real thing.


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

*When I was young Marine and full of...spit..I could handle all these things.. in my 30's thru my 50's I could and would willingly head into the deep Mtn's of MT horseback and camp rough in search of that elusive mythical creature called " Elk" sleep on the ground with no pad.. walk up high Mtns.. well I think you get it.. ( in late Oct)

But.. now? ..not so.. could I hack sleeping out? sure, even in the deep winter.. I still know how to build a nice camp, how to be comfortable.. but .. not while being hunted by folks wanting to kill me... the one old and one new knees just don't want to work all that hard... Oh I can still shoot damn well , but the shooting part of any op is over with in less time then it takes to tell it.. the getting there and away from there are the really hard parts .

So while I agree with the issue of this thread I think in truth damn few of us are young enough to really do most of the subject.. I believe this because I don't think there are very many "preppers" who are in their early 20's to 30's ..some but really how many?

I believe that it will take a lot of people to really make it,there will be way more working then shooting.. even us old farts can pull weeds from the garden, or even help cut fire wood... lots of chores that will have to be done.. and yes the younger folks will have to handle the patrolling stuff..the older folks can handle Op LP duties but hell I can't hear squat without my hearing aids lol..and batteries will be damn hard to come by.. Yep it will take a village..just not one envisioned by Lord Hillery ..

IF I had to be moving cross country it would have to be best with maybe one other person because I would not keep up with the group , and would be a hindrance.. where as two can move quieter and slower if they are only trying to get some place and not looking for a fight..

That's my thoughts and is not any kind of negativity towards the subject... just how it relates to me personally ... *


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

HozayBuck said:


> *When I was young Marine and full of...spit..I could handle all these things.. in my 30's thru my 50's I could and would willingly head into the deep Mtn's of MT horseback and camp rough in search of that elusive mythical creature called " Elk" sleep on the ground with no pad.. walk up high Mtns.. well I think you get it.. ( in late Oct)
> 
> But.. now? ..not so.. could I hack sleeping out? sure, even in the deep winter.. I still know how to build a nice camp, how to be comfortable.. but .. not while being hunted by folks wanting to kill me... the one old and one new knees just don't want to work all that hard... Oh I can still shoot damn well , but the shooting part of any op is over with in less time then it takes to tell it.. the getting there and away from there are the really hard parts .
> 
> ...


Excellent post Buck, but one thing that is kinda scarry is that in describing your limitations you pretty much described mine with me having a new right knee and a repaired left one.
Pushing yourself and getting battered and beat to Hell and back while you are young, sure does come back and bite you in the butt when you reach the "Golden Years". Despite the memories of all of the things that I have seen, learned, and experienced first hand, *GETTING OLD REALLY DOES SUCK*.


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## jungatheart (Feb 2, 2010)

oldvet said:


> Excellent post Buck, but one thing that is kinda scarry is that in describing your limitations you pretty much described mine with me having a new right knee and a repaired left one.
> Pushing yourself and getting battered and beat to Hell and back while you are young, sure does come back and bite you in the butt when you reach the "Golden Years". Despite the memories of all of the things that I have seen, learned, and experienced first hand, *GETTING OLD REALLY DOES SUCK*.


Read the retort to getting old sucks somewhere. "Don't worry, it doesn't last long."


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

This has been a great thread. I always enjoy "listening" to what those who have "been there" have to say about the lessons learned.

I also makes me a bit depressed because it glaringly points out weaknesses that I will have to contend with for good or bad.

I concur with Hozeybuck and Oldvet. Getting old does indeed suck, but its still better than the alternative... right guys?

Finding enough people that not only understands the importance of organization and training for the purpose of providing armed protection will be (and is) a difficult, if not impossible, task for most of us. It will be compounded by finding those agile enough and having even marginal equipment along with the ability to marshal them quickly.

I live in a sub-division of sorts containing about 35 households in a rural setting. There are two roads that we maintain ourselves under the organization of a road association. It is difficult to get enough property owners to show up for a meeting to discuss road issues and make decisions. I can only imagine the difficulty in persuading others here to take on training and a regular patrol function! It is what it is. 

I have three grown sons. Together with my wife and me, that makes five. An AR, two AKs, a FAL, and one sniper might work. Training is still an issue. I wish I knew someone that could (and would) take us under their wing for a while.


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## ricepaddydaddy (Aug 3, 2011)

HozayBuck said:


> *When I was young Marine and full of...spit..I could handle all these things.. in my 30's thru my 50's I could and would willingly head into the deep Mtn's of MT horseback and camp rough in search of that elusive mythical creature called " Elk" sleep on the ground with no pad.. walk up high Mtns.. well I think you get it.. ( in late Oct)
> 
> But.. now? ..not so.. could I hack sleeping out? sure, even in the deep winter.. I still know how to build a nice camp, how to be comfortable.. but .. not while being hunted by folks wanting to kill me... the one old and one new knees just don't want to work all that hard... Oh I can still shoot damn well , but the shooting part of any op is over with in less time then it takes to tell it.. the getting there and away from there are the really hard parts .
> 
> ...


I'm with ya, my friend. I still understand the concept expressed in this thread, but at my age it just isn't possible anymore.
Long ago and far away, there was a Ranger unit attatched to my Company for administrative purposes. They would go out in 4 to 6 man teams, inserted by helicopter, to "snoop and poop" along the Ho Chi Minh Trail.
These were highly trained, highly motivated young men. I seriously doubt that the average American would last very long in that type environment.
Me? We live in a rural area, I will defend our homestead to the best of my ability. But, this is as good a place to die as any.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

ricepaddydaddy said:


> I'm with ya, my friend. I still understand the concept expressed in this thread, but at my age it just isn't possible anymore.
> Long ago and far away, there was a Ranger unit attatched to my Company for administrative purposes. They would go out in 4 to 6 man teams, inserted by helicopter, to "snoop and poop" along the Ho Chi Minh Trail.
> These were highly trained, highly motivated young men. I seriously doubt that the average American would last very long in that type environment.
> Me? We live in a rural area, I will defend our homestead to the best of my ability. But, this is as good a place to die as any.


*There it is.*


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

Jezcruzen said:


> This has been a great thread. I always enjoy "listening" to what those who have "been there" have to say about the lessons learned.
> 
> I also makes me a bit depressed because it glaringly points out weaknesses that I will have to contend with for good or bad.
> 
> ...


Jez,
I totally understand your situation and you are correct in that trying to get folks together that agree with you and are willing to train with you is not an easy task.
I and I am sure other vets on here would gladly offer training in small unit tactics if it were possible, but with me being in Texas and still getting our stuff together I don't see how it would be possible.
I know it's not much but if you get yourself some copies of the "Ranger Handbook" and/or any other small unit training material, read it and put it into practice as much as possible, it would be at least better than no training at all.


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## jungatheart (Feb 2, 2010)

ricepaddydaddy said:


> I'm with ya, my friend. I still understand the concept expressed in this thread, but at my age it just isn't possible anymore.
> Long ago and far away, there was a Ranger unit attatched to my Company for administrative purposes. They would go out in 4 to 6 man teams, inserted by helicopter, to "snoop and poop" along the Ho Chi Minh Trail.
> These were highly trained, highly motivated young men. I seriously doubt that the average American would last very long in that type environment.
> Me? We live in a rural area, I will defend our homestead to the best of my ability*. But, this is as good a place to die as any*.


Agreement. Haven't we met before on another forum?


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## Jezcruzen (Oct 21, 2008)

I spend some time here - http://westernrifleshooters.blogspot.com/2008/11/vanderboegh-resolve.html

They have a lot of good information, especially for vets like me who spent their time in the blue water navy and not on the ground in a war zone.

In my past life (pre-retirement) I was able to develop reasonably good command and control skills. I have years of experience in allocating resources and fulfilling the Command function in "combat"... structural firefighting. There are similarities. We just didn't have people shooting at us. Well.... hardly ever!


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## ricepaddydaddy (Aug 3, 2011)

jungatheart said:


> Agreement. Haven't we met before on another forum?


Gee, I hope I haven't made you angry on another board.
If I have, please allow me to appologize.:surrender:
I always try to stay mellow, but sometimes my fingers travel faster than my brain.
I've been kicking about on forums such as this since before Y2K. I try to keep things simple and use the same screen name most everywhere I belong, or a variation thereof. I have only found one imitator - on militaryrifle.com. That one ain't me. On a few forums I also use my old military nickname: Big_Al.
On a couple of veteran forums I'm 5thMech, which was my unit in 'Nam.

Edited to add: how about SB?


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## jungatheart (Feb 2, 2010)

ricepaddydaddy said:


> Gee, I hope I haven't made you angry on another board.
> If I have, please allow me to appologize.:surrender:
> I always try to stay mellow, but sometimes my fingers travel faster than my brain.
> I've been kicking about on forums such as this since before Y2K. I try to keep things simple and use the same screen name most everywhere I belong, or a variation thereof. I have only found one imitator - on militaryrifle.com. That one ain't me. On a few forums I also use my old military nickname: Big_Al.
> ...


Yeah, it's SB and I like your posts there so I'm sure I'll like them here too.


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## ricepaddydaddy (Aug 3, 2011)

jungatheart said:


> Yeah, it's SB and I like your posts there so I'm sure I'll like them here too.


Whew!! That's a relief. :congrat:

Seriously, sometimes I let people push my buttons, and that's entirely my fault.


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## rjdawley (Dec 31, 2011)

Jezcruzen said:


> I spend some time here - http://westernrifleshooters.blogspot.com/2008/11/vanderboegh-resolve.html
> 
> They have a lot of good information, especially for vets like me who spent their time in the blue water navy and not on the ground in a war zone.
> 
> In my past life (pre-retirement) I was able to develop reasonably good command and control skills. I have years of experience in allocating resources and fulfilling the Command function in "combat"... structural firefighting. There are similarities. We just didn't have people shooting at us. Well.... hardly ever!


Thanks for the link, this site has lots of great stuff!!:beercheer:


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## chris88idaho (Apr 30, 2012)

I agree with the fire team and squad concept. Anything resembling and effective and cohesive fighting force has a higher survivability than a gaggle wandering around. (recommend Army FM 7-8 and Ranger Handbook). I doubt many “bad guys” want to go toe to toe in a knock down drag out fight. The Taliban rarely engage in pitched battles. I imagine post disaster bad guys are looking for an easy score. 

There are stories from Vietnam (I head while in Infantry training) that indicate VC/NVA forces allowed American Special Ops to move through ambush zones unopposed because they didn’t want to tangle with them. This illustrates that attitude and perception mean a lot. Do you look serious and professional? Carrying your weapon at the high ready looking for a fight? Or can you barely carry your kit dragging your weapon behind you?

Fundamentals: Carry standardized caliber weapons, Whatever your numbers split into 2 groups- fire teams gain their advantage by using one unit to pin the enemy down while the other attacks or withdrawals. I would concentrate semi auto weapons in the lead element. Practice and carry some form of radio as you don’t want to light each other up on accident. Appoint a Leader, someone has to call the shots! Attack or retreat? Practice the basics: React to contact, Break Contact, and flanking. 

Never underestimate the sociological effect of 4 people with interlocking fields of fire. They might fire the first shot, but you dictate the battle if you maintain your suppressive fire. If the enemy can’t move, you own him. My guess is if you withdrawal, they won’t want to follow.


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## pixieduster (Mar 28, 2012)

oldvet said:


> Train like you intend to fight and if you have to fight, then fight like you were trained.


Well said. That's how I was taught and was givin this example(true story). The semi-retired fellow kept busy backing units. He engaged in a gun fight. Poor dedicated fellow was shot and killed. When the first resue person arrived, they found all his spent casings in his left hand, because that's what he did in training. He didn't want to have to pick up the brass after shooting. He had a revolver, shot all rounds, then emptied into his hand and couldn't reload fast enough, giving the bad guy a time advantage.


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## chris88idaho (Apr 30, 2012)

pixieduster said:


> Well said. That's how I was taught and was givin this example(true story). The semi-retired fellow kept busy backing units. He engaged in a gun fight. Poor dedicated fellow was shot and killed. When the first resue person arrived, they found all his spent casings in his left hand, because that's what he did in training. He didn't want to have to pick up the brass after shooting. He had a revolver, shot all rounds, then emptied into his hand and couldn't reload fast enough, giving the bad guy a time advantage.


Basic training only trains you to load/fire your weapon and shine your boots. It is good enough to get you into a war and hopefully survive the first 10 seconds of a firefight. Then if you are still alive, the real learning begins. If you rely entirely on training and run head first into a fight, you are headed for a collision with disaster. My feeling is your fella in the story spent a little too much time on a target range shooting bullseyes. Basic infantry doctrine dictates to never to fully engage w/ out 3 to 1 fire superiority. (run away- or tactically with drawl for you military folks). The choice of carrying a revolver (w/no speed loader) shows a lack of practical thought to his own safety.


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## pixieduster (Mar 28, 2012)

chris88idaho said:


> Basic training only trains you to load/fire your weapon and shine your boots. It is good enough to get you into a war and hopefully survive the first 10 seconds of a firefight. Then if you are still alive, the real learning begins. If you rely entirely on training and run head first into a fight, you are headed for a collision with disaster. My feeling is your fella in the story spent a little too much time on a target range shooting bullseyes. Basic infantry doctrine dictates to never to fully engage w/ out 3 to 1 fire superiority. (run away- or tactically with drawl for you military folks). The choice of carrying a revolver (w/no speed loader) shows a lack of practical thought to his own safety.


Yep, hence the explanation on complacency. He always made it the range( for 30 years). But didn't do much outside that.


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## pixieduster (Mar 28, 2012)

And he had a couple speedloaders, it was the fact that he reverted to habit by dumping into the hand he should have grabbed a speedloader with. Not everybody reacts the same when in an adrenalin dump mode. Thinking and reactionary responses change. Guess I'm preaching to the choir. : ) ........ anyway, practice is crucial!


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## chris88idaho (Apr 30, 2012)

pixieduster said:


> And he had a couple speedloaders, it was the fact that he reverted to habit by dumping into the hand he should have grabbed a speedloader with. Not everybody reacts the same when in an adrenalin dump mode. Thinking and reactionary responses change. Guess I'm preaching to the choir. : ) ........ anyway, practice is crucial!


We did stress fires in the army. Cycles of 15 to 20 mins of push up, running, ect then try and hit a target. Ha! It's a good lesson you gave to mix up training. Plinking a can for a few hours a week is great, but diversifying training will help more. Thanks for the story pixi


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## Ezmerelda (Oct 17, 2010)

oldvet said:


> Fn/Form, if it's at all possible I would highly suggest that you switch from paint ball to Airsoft.
> 
> Airsoft guns range from thirty dollars or less to several hundred dollars. You can buy guns that look, weigh and feel the same as their real counterparts.


Another thing about Airsoft vs. paintball - if you use the black bbs, you can't see them coming, unlike paintball. It's much more realistic from that aspect.

It's nearly impossible to be a sniper - a true, hide in the brush, take out a target, and vanish, sniper - in paintball, because everyone can see the ball and backtrack it to where you are before you get a chance to move.

I think I'll suggest we participate in more airsoft activities. We need to learn how to work as a team.


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## Ration-AL (Apr 18, 2012)

Ezmerelda said:


> I think I'll suggest we participate in more airsoft activities.


 i agree, but i feel weird looking at this stuff and hanging out with some 19 year old kid with his hat on backwards and trying to take airsoft training seriously...


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