# how a generator works?



## redpanther

Does anyone know how a generator makes electricity?


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## Jerseyzuks

Sure

A magnet spins inside a coil of wire, moving the electrons through the wire, creating electricity.

Bigger magnet, bigger wire, more coils = more electricity


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## Jerseyzuks

On a side note, any electric motor will produce power if you spin it


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## Blister

Actually, a flux field of different polarizations (north and south) is passed over opposite sides of the same coil at the same time. The magnets are on what's called the rotor and the coils are on what's called the stator. The coils conduct the flux field which is accelerated and produce electricity.

Bigger wire will make more amperage and smaller will make more voltage. Voltage will make your hair stand up, amperage will kill you.


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## JeepHammer

Sure, it's called 'Electromagnetism' or the 'Electromagnetic Link'.

The basic principal is, 
When you pass a magnetic field over an electrical conductor, you create an electrical current.

The MOVING magnetic fields excite extra electrons in the outer most orbits on conductive materials, and they start jumping along the conductor either towards, or away from the magnetic field depending on if it's a 'North Pole' field, or a 'South Pole' field on the magnet.

Reverse the situation, 
And run an electrical charge through a conductor, and you will create a magnetic field...
ANY MOVING CURRENT will produce a magnetic field around the conductor.

ANY MOVING MAGNETIC FIELD will produce current in any conductors around it.
--------------------------

Some simple experiments you can do to test the 'Electromagnetic Link' yourself.

Take some insulated wire, make several wrap it several times around a bolt or spike nail, and add a battery to the ends, 
The bolt or nail or what ever you used to focus the magnetic field will pick up nails, since with the current 'ON' it will be magnetic!

Here is a link to moving a magnetic field through a coil of wire.
Molecular Expressions: Electricity and Magnetism - Interactive Java Tutorials: Faraday's Magnetic Field Induction Experiment
You can do this one your self by shaking any of the 'Emergency' flashlights they make with the big magnet and coil of wire inside, then simply turning it on.

Here is one I like, this shows you can make an electro magnet with a battery and once coil of wire,
And transfer the power to the coil of wire on the other side of a Ferrous (metal) ring.
Molecular Expressions: Electricity and Magnetism - Interactive Java Tutorials: Faraday's Experiment

Now, if you want to the long winded version, try here,
Faraday's law of induction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
----------------------

Modern generators, the small scale versions, use PERMANENT MAGNETS and coils of wire to produce electrical current.

Other, larger generators, like car 'Alternating Generators', or 'Alternators' use an electro magnet to produce the magnetic field.

Here is a pretty good resource for working with small alternators...
http://islandcastaway.com/stuff/windpower/Alternator Secrets.htm
And in this case, it's free.


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## solaceofwinter

kind of a dumb question but...
aside from how they actually generate electricity, how do they 'work'.
i mean how do you get electricity from it into your home or appliance? do you just plug the lamp 'into it?' thats what i never understood.
and if you just plug items into it how would you run your house on it? could you?
you always see the scenario, power goes out, 2 seconds later powers back on in the whole house.
is this how they work or a bit of a stretch? thanks!


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## northernontario

Ok... your average small generator has a panel on it with a couple of 110v plugs. If you need power, you head over to your generator, start it up. Now plug in your lamp (or radio, or fridge), turn the item on (if it has a switch... like a lamp, or a radio). Bingo, that's it.

The generator will have a limit on how much power it can supply (watts). Small generators may not be able to power your fridge or freezer; it depends on the wattage rating of the generator, and how much power the item draws. 

Some mid-sized generators have 220v outlets, and some have 12v outputs to charge batteries as well.

Now a larger generator is often built into a complete "system" in the house... something you'd get an electrician to install for you if you don't have the skills. An extra panel is added, and the generator is hardwired into the house. A control system is installed which basically sits there and waits for a power outage... your generator has an electric starter and a car battery... when the power goes out, the control unit tells the generator to turn on, and a couple seconds later, power is being fed back into your house. 

You can also do the above setup, but without the controller... so if the power goes out, you have to manually start the generator. This gives you a chance to shut down power-hungry appliances (like a heat-pump if your house has one), start the generator, and turn on individual appliances as they require power. (If your generator isn't powerful enough to run both your fridge and freezer, you would kill the breaker to one of them or unplug one, run the other for an hour or two, then switch to the other appliance to cool it down.)

That give a good enough explanation, or is there a more specific scenario you'd like described?


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## solaceofwinter

you got it brother, thanks!
pretty interesting stuff. the power rarely goes out here and its just outside city limits but you never know...
thanks again!


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## labotomi

Jerseyzuks said:


> On a side note, any electric motor will produce power if you spin it


No, it would have to be a permanent magnet motor and most motors are squirrel cage induction. This means they create their own magnetic fields and don't rely on a magnet.


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## labotomi

Blister said:


> Bigger wire will make more amperage and smaller will make more voltage.


I have no idea where you got that, but voltage is what is generated and the amount of voltage is proportional to the strength of the magnetic field, number of conductors and relative speed of the conductors and magnetic field.

Bigger wire will carry more current without burning up. Wire size has no affect on voltage in the way you're implying. If anything, smaller wire will result in lower voltage due to voltage drop caused by the resistance of the wire.


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## Tex

Maybe Blister meant that larger coils with more windings will creat a larger voltage.


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## labotomi

Tex said:


> Maybe Blister meant that larger coils with more windings will creat a larger voltage.


that would be true


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## JeepHammer

Actually, smaller wire in the windings will produce more voltage,
While large wire in the same space will produce more amperage at lower voltages.

Multiply your voltage times amperage to get 'Watts'.
Volts X Amps = Watts.
This gives you a way to equalize the output of high voltage/low amperage vs. high Amperage/low voltage generators.

12 volts X 10 Amps = 120 Watts
120 volts X 1 Amp = 120 Watts

Or with a gasoline generator rated in 'Watts', it will usually have 120 volt outlets and a 220 volt outlet, but the amperage available won't be the same...

4,000 Watts ÷ 120 Volts = 33.33 Amps
4,000 Watts ÷ 220 Volts = 18.18 Amps

The higher the amperage you want to use, like for running a welder instead of a light bulb or two...
You will have to know what the amperage load you are pulling through the conductors...
Lights will work just fine in 16 Ga. wire,
Where a 30 Amp welder needs at least a 10 Gauge wire conductor.
-----------------------------------------

With smaller wire, there is more conductors to 'Induce' voltage in, but the smaller wire restricts Amperage.

With larger wire in the same space, you can't have as many windings,
But the larger wire size will support more Amperage.

When I'm rewinding a car alternator for wind or hydro production,
I have to balance between voltage output, and usable amperage.

Since most generators you will be messing with produce in AC or Alternating Current, and WILL NOT produce a directly usable current for something like lighting,
You will have to find a way to 'Filter' that power into a usable form.

The easiest way is to use a 'Rectifier' that converts AC to DC (Direct Current).
Direct Current is VERY usable, and it's what batteries put out.

Then your DC current can be converted via an 'Inverter' into AC with the correct 'Cycles' for you AC appliances.

Most people that produce AC from a home generator (gas, wind, hydro) will either charge a battery bank,
Then draw from the battery bank through an Inverter for their AC power,
Or use the DC directly from the batteries.

OR,
They will use appliance intended for DC current,
Like the stuff made for traveling in cars that plug into the cigarette lighters.

Batteries give you the option of making very little generation over long periods of time (hours) that adds up,
Is stored in the batteries,
And then can be used at high current loads for short periods of time,
Like when you have a 12 Volt, 5 Amp wind generator that charges batteries,
Then you run a large load for a short period of time,
Like a microwave oven to make dinner.


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## labotomi

JeepHammer,
If you re read my post, you'll see that I said the same thing as you in the latter part of your post.


labotomi said:


> voltage is what is generated and the amount of voltage is proportional to the strength of the magnetic field, number of conductors and relative speed of the conductors and magnetic field.





JeepHammer said:


> With smaller wire, there is more conductors to 'Induce' voltage in, but the smaller wire restricts Amperage.
> With larger wire in the same space, you can't have as many windings,
> But the larger wire size will support more Amperage.


I was just stating that the size of the conductors isn't the controlling factor for voltage...it's the number of conductors. I will agree that wire size can limit the current you can safely carry.


JeepHammer said:


> Since most generators you will be messing with produce in AC or Alternating Current, and WILL NOT produce a directly usable current for something like lighting,
> You will have to find a way to 'Filter' that power into a usable form.


Why is AC not usable to power lighting? Every light in my house is powered by AC.

Gas powered generators can produce enough energy to power AC appliances directly without the need for batteries and inverters which would lead to lower efficiency as some power is lost with every conversion. Also adding batteries and inverters where they aren't needed is a waste of money.

Wind and hydro I can see it as the generators are too small to produce immediate power, so accumulating it over time makes sense.
Solar generates DC so Batteries and inverters are a necessity.


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## JeepHammer

labotomi said:


> Why is AC not usable to power lighting? Every light in my house is powered by AC.


Small, Home made generators have a tendency to be made from electric motors or car alternators.
They have a tendency to have 'Cycle' counts that cause 'Flickering' or detectable 'Blinking' of the lights we have now.
(Incandescent)

Wrong cycle counts can burn up all sorts of electronic devices, but are especially hard on motors wound specifically for a specific cycle count,
And on transformers that like to overheat when subjected to higher cycle counts...

A capacitor will stop or at least minimize that flutter, but you will still see it,
And with electric motors, you will find that that many of them aren't compatible with the 'Cycles' of the generator.
They will do strange stuff, or just burn up when you try to run them directly off a home made generator.

Grid energy is a very constant 60 cycles a second,
Where your generator might be 400 cycles a second, or 10 cycles a second.
(Cycle is where current flips form positive to negative and back again, 
AC does this 60 times a second from the grid,
Where DC power doesn't do it at all)

If the motor is built correctly, you can run it on about any type of current, 
Amount of current will determine speed.
Low current = Low speed...

If the motor is build specifically for AC current, it will melt down when you try to run it on DC current.

Same if it's the other way around,
You have a DC motor and try to run it on AC current.

Some motors are wound for specific input cycles,
Can't run them on anything else correctly...
--------------------------

For instance, your cordless drill works great on DC current,
But if you plug it into an AC outlet, no matter if the voltage is dropped down to 18 volts or whatever,
It's going to burn that DC motor up in short order!

Generator has to match equipment to run directly off the generator...
That's why batteries and converters/inverters that put out SPECIFIC current type are very handy to have...


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## labotomi

Please don't think you have to "simplify" your wording for me. I spent 10 years as a Nuclear trained electrician on Navy submarines before getting out and spending another 10 as an electrical engineer (by title, not degree) at a large manufacturing facility. I'm familiar with how electricity works so you don't have to dumb things down for me to know what you're talking about.

Generally what you're saying is correct, but their is much misinformation there as well. I'm not going to point out the errors in your post as this isn't a me against you thread. Just try and stick to the original question asked by the OP.

Does anyone know how a generator makes electricity? 

I was just commenting on basic generator theory (which was hammered into us by the Navy), not application specific home/small alternator/off the grid stuff.





Ok. I can't resist.

you can only run one type of motor on AC or DC. It's called a universal motor and I can think of only two applications currently being used in residential settings, drill motors (corded) and shop vacs (maybe all canister vacs. I dunno)

DC Motor speed is controlled by VOLTAGE.

AC Motor speed is controlled by APPLIED FREQUENCY (60hz)

Yes, running a AC motor at SLOWER frequencies can make them overheat (Inductive reactance goes down causing current to increase)

incandescent lights would have to have a very low frequency to flicker since they give off light due to their heat and it takes some time for the cooling to occur. Look at a light when you turn it off and watch it fade. Even at as slow as 10Hz, I believe any dimming would be undetectable by the human eye.

Fluorescent lighting does actually turn completely on and off at 2X applied frequency. in your home that would mean 120x/second. They can also be run off of DC but it will significantly reduce the life of the bulbs. This probably would be noticed by a very low frequency, but that's why adjacent florescent lights are wired to opposing 120v circuits. This makes the flickering alternate in adjacent pairs. This was done to prevent similar effects as a stroboscope on rotating equipment which would cause anything running at a harmonic frequency of 60 Hz to appear as if it were rotating very slowly or not at all. 

A capacitor will help with dips or spikes in DC voltage, but would be counterproductive in an AC circuit because capacitive reactance is inversely proportional to frequency meaning the lower the frequency (or cycles as you put it) the more the capacitor tries to stop current flow. (1/(2*pi*freq*capacitance))

Whew!!!


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## JeepHammer

What ever you say...

I'll go back to my job of wiring 'Green' energy stuff.


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## model130

*Quick amperage test of appliance.*

Make a plug and electrical extension cord of heavy wire. Or buy a short one. 
Cut off the main insulation leaving the 3 wires (with insulation on) exposed. Plug your appliance into the cord and the cord into the wall. Put a clamp on amp meter over the hot wire and read the amperage. Convert that to wattage and you will know how much current each of you appliances uses and how far you can stress your generator. You might find this interesting. We had a cable box pulling as much amperage as our refrig!


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## labotomi

model130 said:


> Make a plug and electrical extension cord of heavy wire. Or buy a short one.
> Cut off the main insulation leaving the 3 wires (with insulation on) exposed. Plug your appliance into the cord and the cord into the wall. Put a clamp on amp meter over the hot wire and read the amperage. Convert that to wattage and you will know how much current each of you appliances uses and how far you can stress your generator. You might find this interesting. We had a cable box pulling as much amperage as our refrig!


For less than $20 you can purchase one of the "kill-a-watt" meters. They plug into the outlet and you plug the appliance into it. It will give you the following measurements

Voltage (volts)
Current (amperes)
Watt
Kilowatt-hours (kW·h)
Frequency (Hz)
Volt-amperes (V·A)
Power factor (PF)
Elapsed time


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## nj_m715

Awhile back I posted a link to how I made welder/genset with an alternator and lawnmower engine. I can charge 12v batteries or bypass the regulator and make about 70 volts DC. It will light up a standard light bulb and run most power tools. Any AC motor with brushes can run on DC once the volts are high enough. It doesn't have to be 110v. You can do the old jumper cable trick with a couple car batteries to increase the volts too. I modified my truck alternator too. It can make about 100v before the engine is turning too fast. Of course I don't rebuild nuke engines, but I know just about enough to get myself in trouble. 


"If the motor is build specifically for AC current, it will melt down when you try to run it on DC current."


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## model130

This is such a joke. Or maybe not. See, someone asks and then get lessons in wire and off topic comments by know-it-alls. 
Here is what you do. 
Lets break this down to the ridiculous. You take an AC motor. You hook a belt from your car tire and spin the motor. The wires that normally provide power to the motor are now your output. It is just electricity in reverse. The motor hooked to your wheel generates electricity and you just hook up your ac appliance to the wires that should have been imput. That is a generator. Most generators just use a gas motor to spin the AC motor and draw the current like I described. The priciple is easy. If the electricity spins the motor, the motor also generates electricity when it spins.


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## model130

OK, someone will flame me. "You have to have a voltage regulator". Sure. It you are not under fire or have money to do it. The point I try to make is that you get power and it is cheap. The flame I mention is valid. You could blow out your item that you are powering if the voltage goes too high. My point is you get survival power in a bad situation. We don't all have the staying power of some of these guys that have backup power and money to throw at things. I am cheap. I do have cctv and x10 in our house. The x10 allows me to turn on lights where I am not located and draw fire to where it is not effective.


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## nj_m715

I think the op wanted to know some basics about types/sizes of gensets, and how he would be able to use the power. As in wheel a small honda out of the shed and run a cord to your fridge or have a stand-by monster with auto switch over to run your house. Not some much about electrical theory. No need for flames.

I think the op needs to tell us what he wants to run and we can suggest some options. 
I don't have a genset, but I have a good size invertor in my slide in camper. If we get a bad storm I can keep my food cold and have a couple lights. I have a 145watts of solar on the camper and if that's not enough, I can start the truck.


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## labotomi

model130 said:


> This is such a joke. Or maybe not. See, someone asks and then get lessons in wire and off topic comments by know-it-alls.
> Here is what you do.
> Lets break this down to the ridiculous. You take an AC motor. You hook a belt from your car tire and spin the motor. The wires that normally provide power to the motor are now your output. It is just electricity in reverse. The motor hooked to your wheel generates electricity and you just hook up your ac appliance to the wires that should have been imput. That is a generator. Most generators just use a gas motor to spin the AC motor and draw the current like I described. The priciple is easy. If the electricity spins the motor, the motor also generates electricity when it spins.


Speaking of ridiculous...Do you really think that all motors and generators are electrically and mechanically equal? There's this little thing called a magnetic field that a generator needs to produce electricity or cause a motor to turn. The electricity applied to a motor is what most use to make this field. What do you think makes one in generators since you aren't applying any electricity, but trying to make it?

If you use a motor with a permanent magnet, then you'll be ok with using it for a generator. Other types of motors begin to need other components.

Not every electric motor can be used to generate electricity. A little research needs to be done to make sure the motor you plan to use is capable of generating as well as motoring.

Try running electrical AC appliances at frequencies other than 60hz (50 in some countries) and see how long it takes to let the magic smoke out. Motors are especially susceptible to damage if you run them at lower than normal frequencies. Some electronic equipment won't work at all.

You're attempt at over simplification magnifies your lack of knowledge to the point where you show just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

The "electricity in reverse" statement made me choke on my coffee.


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## JeepHammer

If 'labotomi' will let us get a practical word in edgewise,

I've been converting electric motors to generators,
Converting AC generators into DC generators, ect. for a long time.

I make a pretty wicked welder (AC or DC) from a big truck alternator,
And I power up my home made plasma cutter from same.

I've converted many vehicle alternators to wind generators, micro hydro, ect.
So it's all very 'Doable' for the home experimenter.

I've never worked on 'Nuclear Subs', and I'm not 'Dumbing Down' anything,
I'm simply providing information in a format that about anyone can understand that might view the thread.
Some people don't understand that not everyone has 'Theoretical' training,
So I try to provide information that will allow 'Joe Average' to do the conversions and provide themselves with a basis to experiment and figure this stuff out in PRACTICAL TERMS.
---------------------------------------------

Now that you have to post 2 pages of disclaimers before you can post on a thread...

---------------------------------------------

*IF* you understand the 'Electro-Magnetic Link',
You will be able to work with about any type of generator.
I work with 'Electrical Engineers' every day, and I have yet to find one that can adequately explain or understand the Electro-magnetic link,
So when I mess around and make a vehicle alternator into a welder, plasma cutter, ect.
They are ALWAYS at a loss to explain how it works...

I suggest you study the electromagnetic link, learn how to produce current and magnetic fields, then you will be MUCH better off than leaning about conversion tables.
That will come in later after you learn to actually produce and transfer current.

--------------------------------

Most AC electrical motors are 'Induction' motors.
You can't make them directly produce usable current EASILY.

It takes an 'Excite' charge to get them charging,
And you have to control the shaft speed to get any usable output because of 'Cycles' or 'Hertz' they produce when working.

.......

For home experimenters,
You are MUCH better off with a DC project instead of an AC project.
Virtually All Vehicle Alternators will output in DC current, which is what you need to charge batteries.

They are available for cheap, they are everywhere, they are easy to work with, and they make great learning and production tools for you home work shop.

What most people don't know is...
An 'Alternator' produces in 3 phase AC current, meaning there are 3 sets of 'Stator' windings the current is being produced in when the magnetic field moves thorugh them.
(MOVING magnetic field, static magnetic fields do NOT produce current)

There are two types of generators,
One that moves the magnetic field though the stator windings,
And one that moves the windings through the magnetic field.

Moving the magnetic field is easier than moving the windings, so it's more efficient, but produces AC, or Alternating Current.
All vehicle alternators produce AC current, which has to be 'Rectified' or converted to 'DC' or 'Direct Current'.

By tapping the AC production in an alternator, you can weld in AC or use that AC for AC motors.
Since the 'Cycles' or 'Hertz' are usually way too high for sensitive electronic components,
You CAN NOT use the AC production from an alternator for things like computers, TVs, Radios, ect.
But it works VERY well for welding, something you WILL need for 'Survival' or 'Emergency' repairs, building with steel, ect.

Being able to work with standard 110 volt tools with brush type motors, 
Saws, drills, ect. is very handy also.
Otherwise, you are down to a hand saw or battery powered tools that go dead very quickly!

By hooking up the 'Converter' (Called a Rectifier), you can weld in Direct Current, which gives you MUCH cleaner and deeper penetrating welds,
DC will also charge batteries, run DC motors without issues, ect.

This is PRACTICAL use of these units, and it's very easy to do.

-------------------------------------------------

Permanent magnet motors are a good way to produce 'Alternative' energy, since you don't have to produce a magnetic field, it's already there.
You don't have to supply current to 'Excite' the generator into working,
Just turn the shaft and you will get current production.

I'm particularly fond of Permanent Magnet DC motors,
Like the ones found on Tread Mills,
For making small scale wind generators and water generators.

Since you don't need to 'Excite' the generator like you do with 'Alternators',
Then you simply turn the shaft and get DC out of the wires!
Old time computers that used large reel to reel tape drives used DC motors, and they work very good too, but they are getting hard to find,
Tread Mills are at about every yard sale, found in salvage yards, ect.
And you can find them VERY easily.

............................

There are also 'Starter/Generators' out there.
The 'DC GENERATOR' was popular on vehicles until the late 60s,
And they DO produce in pulsing DC, but they are pretty hard to find,
They are LOW output, and they are fragile for mechanical reasons.

I've worked with hundreds of them, and I don't recommend them for home projects because they break easily, can't be spun very fast, don't produce much current because of size restrictions for the production windings...
And there simply isn't any supply of spare parts that are easily had anymore.
Only specialty equipment manufacturers produce parts for them, and very few people really know how to work on them.

............................

If you do more than just light field repairs,
You might want to go with a LARGER alternator...
Like one from a big truck.

There are a couple of them that are VERY easy to work with,
One in particular (Leece-Neville) has AC taps that come through the case so you don't have to 'Monkey Wire' in an AC supply to the outside of the case,

It has a regulator that is EASILY removed so you can take control of the production (Intensity of the rotor's magnetic field), and it has an ISOLATED negative output for the DC production.

This means you can weld in 'Straight' polarity (Positive Work, Negative Electrode)
'Reverse' polarity, (Workpiece Negative, Electrode Positive),
You can weld in AC,
(I use mine for HIGH FREQUENCY AC TIG welding along with 'Stick' AC welding!)
I power up my home made, vehicle mounted Plasma cutter, which saves HOURS of sawing/drilling every time I use it!)

It's also wired to charge batteries, run AC outlets for power tools, ect.

Since I can control both the AC and DC output by controlling the rotor magnetic field, I can charge anything from 6 volt batteries to 48 volt batteries with no issues.

Engine speed is used to control the AC frequency output, so you can EASILY run high or low frequency AC components when wired correctly.

These were put on MILLIONS of large trucks, so they are available in salvage yards and big truck shops with no issues, and all parts to rebuild are available on the market in several locations.

Since they are 'Industrial' units,
They have MUCH larger roller bearings instead of bushings, they are build heavy duty to live much longer, and they are compact enough to carry around when I work on the farm or fix my broken Jeep in the field.

...............................

As for 'Wire Size'...

What you want is a wire large enough to move the current without heating up.
Most of us use the 'Brown & Sharp' scale from the 1890s.
All of the 'Sizing' tables are still very close to the Brown & Sharp scale,
So it's still accurate even after 100 years from it's publishing date.

Link to a copy of the Brown & Sharp scale,
http://www.civilianjeep.info/Wiring/B&Sscale01.gif

Once you know your 'Electrical Load' (amps, voltage, watts, ect.),
The Brown & Sharp scale will give you the 'Correct' wiring sizing,
And you can decide what type of circuit protection will work best for you.

Remember to keep the circuit protection as close as practical to the 'Head' or 'Source' of the current,
And size it to protect the WIRE to the Load.
Most 'Fuses' protect the wiring to and from the 'Load', not the 'Load' it's self...
You want the Fuse or circuit protection to be the 'Smallest' part of the circuit,
If in doubt, OVERSIZE the wiring, and use the circuit protection to protect the 'Load' at the other end...
the fuse should be the 'Weak Link' in the circuit so it blows first when something goes wrong.

Too large of a fuse will allow the wiring/insulation will catch fire or melt, and you DO NOT want that.


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## nj_m715

Veg Gear DIY WVO Conversions and Green Energy

I hear you Hammer. Here's a link to how I did my lawn mower powered and truck mounted welder / generator that must violate the laws of physics because it was simple to build and it works.


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## JeepHammer

We used to build A little square angle iron frame,
Engine on top with shaft facing down,
Alternator on bottom facing up,
And rubber isolated coupler in the middle to keep any misalignment from killing bearings.

Made for a nice, compact package and let us run power tools, charge race car batteries, ect. without having to buy a huge generator for the purpose...
(We were VERY poor back then, every penny went to the cars or beer! Our girlfriends had to feed us!  )

Now I'm a little more elaborate, but basically the same arrangement,
Or I turn with the Jeep engine instead of lawn mower engine.

Wiring was Minimal, circuit protection was cheap, and footprint in the trailer was small so it worked well for us.
I still make one now and again for guys wanting to make 'Field' welders or charge race car batteries like we used to, and it still works VERY well for those things.

I've done the same thing with water pumps, engine shaft down pump shaft up and again, it works very well for even larger pumps (up to about 1.5" outlet pumps)


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## nj_m715

I like the direct drive idea. Sometimes my belt slips. What do you use? I have used heavy, cord reinforced rubber heater hose before, but that only on low power stuff. 

Honestly I'm not real proud of the wood. It was more or less a prototype just to see how well an alternater can weld. It worked and I was satisfied. I didn't want to screw around with my truck just to be disapointed with the output of the welder. 

Power washers make good motor donors too. They have side shafts, but they are much harder to find than lawn mowers. 

There's just something that feels good about turning junk into useful stuff.

Do you have any good instructions on making the plasma cutter. I found some good stuff for an alternator powered tig welder when I was doing my research, but plasma info was hard to find. 

Do you have your own site that lists your projects? I'd like to see more. I started my site to avoid having to explain something over and over. Now I just say "it's on my blog, check it out and let me know if you still have any questions. I'll glad to help" I post on a few different groups so It's save me a ton of typing. Thanks


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## labotomi

JeepHammer said:


> If 'labotomi' will let us get a practical word in edgewise,
> 
> I've never worked on 'Nuclear Subs', and I'm not 'Dumbing Down' anything,
> I'm simply providing information in a format that about anyone can understand that might view the thread.
> Some people don't understand that not everyone has 'Theoretical' training,
> So I try to provide information that will allow 'Joe Average' to do the conversions and provide themselves with a basis to experiment and figure this stuff out in PRACTICAL TERMS.
> ---------------------------------------------
> 
> Now that you have to post 2 pages of disclaimers before you can post on a thread...
> 
> ---------------------------------------------


Sorry if you took offense to my posting. I wasn't saying you were incorrect, but rather clarifying some of your statements or giving examples.

The dumbing down statement came because of your explanation of cycles when you responded to a question put forth by me so I believe your answer was directed to me. I let you know that it was unnecessary to explain basic electrical concepts to me since I already knew them.

Nowhere in this thread did I give what I would consider technical answers. I posted one equation. There are many that could be brought up, but they're not relevant to the original question.

Continue to discuss what you feel is "practical" knowledge and I'll leave my knowledge out of it since even though it applies directly to the discussion, you feel it's impractical.


----------



## JeepHammer

nj_m715 said:


> I like the direct drive idea. Sometimes my belt slips. What do you use? I have used heavy, cord reinforced rubber heater hose before, but that only on low power stuff.


Driving directly off the gas engine shaft, which I have done, rattles the bearings/bushings out of the alternator in pretty short order.

I use a 'Clutch' (Not able to disengage, so I don't know why the call it a 'Clutch', that has three 'Fingers' on the drive flanges, with a hard rubber isolator between those with six slots in the rubber.
I first saw them on the farm for sprayer pumps powered by small gas engines.










The drive and driven pieces come in different shaft sizes, so you don't have to mess around with trying to oversize any holes and keep them centered.

They take vibration from the gas engine out of the power stream, they fix any slight misalignments since they work somewhat like a 'Universal',
And they are VERY easy to install.

Here is a link to a page that covers them pretty well, but I don't care for this guys design,
It's too big to transport easily, side shaft (Horizontal) engines aren't cheap or common, and they don't 'Stack'.
Would be all right for a standing system backup, and with the pulley/belt, you could produce power from a generator or pump water either one.

Building a high power AC/DC generator system!

-------------------------



> Honestly I'm not real proud of the wood.


I do a lot of prototype work, and you wouldn't believe how much wood, cardboard, ect. I go through to make prototype models and patterns!

Wood is field expedient, makes for fast temporary templates, quickly built models and R&D pieces.
Don't worry about the wood for the 'Prototype', everyone starts somewhere, and if it's with wood to work the kinks out of the project, then there is NOTHING wrong with that!

-----------------------------



> It was more or less a prototype just to see how well an alternater can weld. It worked and I was satisfied. I didn't want to screw around with my truck just to be disappointed with the output of the welder.


I rebuilt starters, generators, alternators, ect. for about 10 years as a business, I use a test bench for spinning my projects before I put them together.
This is completely unreasonable for a guy that is only building two or three in a lifetime.
Go with the wood, it's cheap, quick to work with, and makes for a very easy 'Proof Of Concept' prototype.

-----------------------------------------------



> Power washers make good motor donors too. They have side shafts, but they are much harder to find than lawn mowers.


Garden tillers make for good donors also, but people hold onto garden tillers like they are gold!
Power washers get the boot as soon as the reed valves give up, so they are available more often.

I went with the vertical shaft (push type lawn mowers) because they were everywhere and cheap.

------------------------------------------------


----------



## JeepHammer

> *There's just something that feels good about turning junk into useful stuff.*


YOU SAID A MOUTH FULL!

I make EVERYTHING work two or three times around here before I finally recycle it!
Even rain water gets stored and used in the garden or for watering stock, making concrete, ect.!

Metal cans get flattened in the driveway, then become base underlay to keep my expensive gravel from sinking into the mud!

The over packaged cardboard gets flattened and makes bio degradable moisture and light barrier in the garden to keep weeds from taking over and moisture loss to a minimum...

I try and reuse EVERYTHING, not just the metal parts...
Metal scrap gets taken down, put into Iron, Tin, Steel, Aluminum barrels, ect.
This usually adds up to a tidy amount of money, and since I have room to store, I don't have to sell when the market is down.
You do much 'Tinkering', you would be surprised how fast a 55 gallon barrel of coper adds up, or a 55 gallon barrel of aluminum adds up!



> Do you have any good instructions on making the plasma cutter. I found some good stuff for an alternator powered tig welder when I was doing my research, but plasma info was hard to find.


My plasma cutter has been being developed for about 10 years, and it's pretty wasteful at best.
Costs about $35 to rebuild the torch, and it blows through torches pretty quickly, especially when scrapping out thick materials.
I stared out with a microwave to make the pilot spark, but that didn't work too well, so I went with a vehicle ignition coil, and again, that was 'Iffy'...
Now I'm using a cheap stun gun ($9) and that works MUCH better.

Constant amperage from the generator HATES to flatten out, so you need some LARGE capacitors, to smooth out the primary current from the generator.
Finding the capacitors the correct size to make them portable was a challenge, I'm using ones from a salvaged stereo found in a junk vehicle.
Some kid put a TON of money into a stereo, then totaled the car, capacitors weren't stolen when the stereo was,
So I grabbed them while at the salvage yard...

You WILL Need some pretty good air production or bottled gas for a plasma cutter.
I have an On Board Air Compressor on my Jeeps.
Little compressor, large storage tank for reserve, and I used a pressure switch to shut the plasma cutter down when the air pressure drops below about 60 PSI.

Low air flow will burn the tips out in a heart beat!
I must have went through a dozen tips at $35 each before I got that one right!

Even with the amount of air reserve I have in the Jeeps (Between 10 and 20 gallons) I still have to stop and wait for the compressor to catch up if you do very much,
And that 'Duty Cycle' can be frustrating,

But it's MUCH CHEAPER than renting and storing explosive tanks in a moving vehicle for a cutting torch, 
Plus it's as easy to use as pushing the button to get it to work,
No gauges, no adjustments, no fiddling around,
Just push the button and cut, wind the hose up and you are done!

Once you get the arc started in the tip, there isn't much to a plasma cutter.



> Do you have your own site that lists your projects?


I do have a couple of sites, but they are aimed at Jeeps, Camping, Hunting, Firearms, survival, stuff like that.
If we hit it off, I'll give you the addresses.
This IS NOT kids stuff, and I can't teach safe shop practices!
If you don't have a self preservation instinct, or you don't know the usefulness of welding leathers, safety glasses, keeping your fingers out of amperage that WILL Kill you,
Then it's not a good idea for you to visit my sites!

If you try my 50¢ trigger job for an AR rifle and you DON'T know how to set up the disconnect correctly, then you will ruin $100 worth of replacement parts or you will wind up with a full automatic or non-functioning rifle...
You MUST know what you are capable of, or what you are capable of figuring out before you wade off into some of the stuff I do...
So I don't hand out the information to just anyone...

I can list my 'Qualifications' here to justify my abilities,
But this is the internet, and you can post ANYTHING, True or not.
Just suffice to say that I dip into Civilian training, military training, and inherent abilities to come up with some 'Novel' solutions to my 'Issues'...

One example that won't get you killed is what to do with back up battery banks...
I don't care to have my smaller batteries on my PV (Solar) system sitting around going bad from lack of use...
I plug in battery powered vehicles that I use on the 'Farm'.
Using the batteries for transportation, load carrying, and working in the field via an inverter instead of having that substantial investment in batteries sitting there on 'Stand-By' ... "Just In Case" doesn't cut it for me,
I wanted some USE out of them, more than just sitting there, so I found myself a golf cart and a converted S-15 pick up.

Since I can't drive both at once, one is always hooked to the solar array/inverters powering the house/barn, and the batteries don't go to waste.
If something happens to the large inverters or the solar array,
The vehicles can be parked at the house to power up appliances/essentials for several hours while I fix the 'Issue'.

This gives me use of the batteries for transportation, load hauling, powering up electrical tools, and emergency back up if needed.
A 1,500 or 2,000 Watt inverter will keep my freezer and refrigerator working, keep some lights on and give me some breathing room until I can get what ever went wrong fixed.

Just another way of looking at things that most people don't think through when they go 'Off Grid',
Nothing wrong with making your 'Back Up' do some WORK and pay for it's self!

My back up, petroleum fuel generator is actually a rather large WELDER.
Since I fabricate, and welding takes a TON of current, 
There is no reason beating up the batteries for the current.
Start up the Welder, do my welding, and charge the batteries at the same time...
Bad weather hits, the batteries get low, every time I start the welder for a job, the batteries get charged. No issues with 3-5 days of bad weather since I have TWO electric vehicles for 'battery banks',
And paying jobs usually have me starting the welder every day or two, so the CUSTOMER pays for charging the batteries!

Like I said, I take a different approach to things, so people argue with me A LOT, since it's not what they were 'Taught'...
--------------------------------------------------



> I'd like to see more. I started my site to avoid having to explain something over and over.
> Now I just say "it's on my blog, check it out and let me know if you still have any questions. I'll glad to help" I post on a few different groups so It's save me a ton of typing. Thanks


Like I said, when we get in depth a little more, I'll give you specifics, but PLEASE,
Don't post links to everyone,
I don't want someone to get injured or die from something they tried to reproduce and screwed up...

I REALLY don't want anyone to get injured from something I posted even though I have two or three pages of disclaimers and warnings throughout...

Guys make fun of me because I wear 'Goober Glasses' (Safety Lenses) about all the time...
I've still got my eyes after 50 years of screwing up, 
Burned my eyebrows and even eye lashes off more times than I can count!
But my EYES were ALWAYS protected!

Some guys think it 'Can't Happen To Me', but they would be WRONG!
I've screwed up in every possible way, usually more than once!
Broken, mashed fingers, severe cuts, burns are the price I pay for my 'Tinkering' and curiosity, but some of this stuff will flat out KILL YOU!


----------



## JeepHammer

labotomi said:


> Sorry if you took offense to my posting. I wasn't saying you were incorrect, but rather clarifying some of your statements or giving examples.
> 
> The dumbing down statement came because of your explanation of cycles when you responded to a question put forth by me so I believe your answer was directed to me. I let you know that it was unnecessary to explain basic electrical concepts to me since I already knew them.


You aren't the only one looking at this thread.
I try and write for everyone watching.
If it's over simplified, then skip over that part and get to the heart of what is being said.
Content is being viewed by people that know NOTHING about the subject.
Like the OP, that doesn't understand how generators work, not even the basics of electro-magnetism,
So I try to give the basics, references that will help the 'Newbies' find out how things work, and give easy explanations to help that process along.

I thought the idea was to educate, not show off what you know....

-------



> Nowhere in this thread did I give what I would consider technical answers. I posted one equation. There are many that could be brought up, but they're not relevant to the original question.


Studies have often shown that for every equation,
You loose 50% of the readership.
For every complicated, technical answer you give, you loose 50% of what's left.

I design Hot Rod suspensions for a living and do 'Technical Writing',
(Which is a Misnomer, What I do is convert technical information into pictures and explanations in plain English so _CONSUMERS_ can understand how to install and adjust the product.)

It's not 'Dumbing Down' anything, it's simply converting the information into plain English for people that don't work in the industry.

-------------------------------------



> Continue to discuss what you feel is "practical" knowledge and I'll leave my knowledge out of it since even though it applies directly to the discussion, you feel it's impractical.


I'm ALWAYS up for more information, 
WHEN IT'S DIGESTIBLE BY EVERYONE!.

Adding to any discussion is a good thing,
I'll be the FIRST to admit that there is NOTHING I HAVE that can't be improved on!

I'm not the 'Last Word' in anything, I'm just a farm boy from Indiana that has had to work on about everything at one time or another,
From military aircraft to hammers!

*Absolutely everything can be improved on, and I'm all for stealing a good idea when I see/hear it!*

But you DO Have to put it into terms I understand before I can steal it! :congrat:
And I'm not the smartest guy in the world, or even on my block! 
So you have to put it out there in a format I can understand...

Take the ego out of it, and pretend you are talking to 'Electrical Kindergarten' students...
HELPING is the objective, not critique what is being put out there...
If you have something that will improve anything, I'd be MORE than happy to hear it!
Nothing like making my systems, devices, ect. more efficient!

I just got my PV (Solar) panels tracking the sun,
Saw a 40% increase in the output when they face the sun more directly,
And I got the idea from a forum just like this one!
Helped out a BUNCH!
And it's SIMPLE & CHEAP to do!

Cable with 'Stops' on it and a simple timer move the panels hourly,
When the last 'Stop' contacts a switch, they return for morning sun!

I'll go with a more complicated, more accurate system later on,
But this is SO SIMPLE and so easy to do, and will make a good backup to the more complicated system later that I'm not going to scrap it.
Keep it for a 'Back Up' if something happens later on to the complicated electrical system!

I'm all for having ANYONE chime in with an idea since everyone has their own discipline that might be able to contribute.
If I can understand it, then it's helpful and saves me a TON of money!
I would have had to add 6 more panels, at $500 each to reach the output that $300 worth of cables, timer and electric jack motor have provided!

I'm all for the Forums, and I gain a LOT of good information,
But if it's too technically specific, I can't use it.
Plain english (which is my ONLY laungauge, and I still struggle with it at times :nuts works the best for me!


----------



## nj_m715

Man, you make me want to put disclaimers on my blog. I figure if got the tool in your hand than, it's your fault you got hurt. Of course the lawer might not see it that way. I guess I should stop making "how to" articles and start making "How I did" articles.


----------



## labotomi

JeepHammer said:


> .
> 
> I thought the idea was to educate, not show off what you know....
> 
> -------
> 
> Take the ego out of it, and pretend you are talking to 'Electrical Kindergarten' students...


It's not my ego nor am I trying to show off. I'm not out to impress anyone here. I was actually trying to keep it in simple terms. I guess I'm used to being around people who are more familiar with this subject than the people here, so while I was trying to put things in basic terms I just didn't put in into terms for people who are just learning the basics themselves. The basics are a must if you want to understand more complex systems. These books give you a good solid fundamental knowledge of basic electricity.

For anyone looking to learn about basic electricity, I'd recommend the NEETS modules. There books put out by the navy for training electricians. They start with matter, energy, magnetism and progress to motors, generators up to solid state electronics (farther than that actually, but they begin to be application specific like RADAR systems).

They also teach troubleshooting techniques like start your search for the problem at the center of the circuit, decide which side the problem is on then move to the center of that side and repeat these steps until you narrow it down to one function/device.

You can find them on sites like Download music, movies, games, software! The Pirate Bay - The world's most resilient BitTorrent site 
or an online format like Neets - Naval Electrical Engineering Training Series (24 Electronics Manuals)


----------



## nj_m715

I guess simple terms can be relative. I feel I have good handle on things. I put a 200 amp service in my old house. I can wire a 3 way switch. I get the idea of a pm motor or induction motor, I've installed 3 phase HVAC units, installed some solar even made my own welder, but both of you guys can give me a headache when I try to follow you.

Jeep, Thanks for the info. The pic you posted didn't come up, but I took a quick look at the site. It looks like a lovecraft or lovejoy coupler. I forget the name. Some of the guys on the wvo forums use those to build pumps. I was too cheap to put one on my pump. I used a pipe with the right inside hole and used cold roll pins to attach my pump to my electric motor. If you skimmed through my site than you know what what I mean. 

Your plasma cutter already sounds a bit too involved for my taste, We can't have stun guns here anyway. but I'd still like to see for myself sometime. I'll stick with my saws-all and a fresh pack of blades for now. Some of the weldanators I looked seem over complicated too. I didn't want to do it with a bunch of external diodes hanging outside of the unit. I'm real happy with my nice simple set up. I just flip a switch to full field the alternator and adjust the power with the rpms of the motor. It's strong enough to put good welds on my front hitch. It was 1/2" plate to 1/4" square tubing. I wish I learned about it back in my 'wheelin' days. We used to pull the batteries out of 3 or 4 jeeps and use jumper cables if we needed to weld on the trail.


----------



## JeepHammer

I can't keep a jack handle!
My jack handles get hacked up for TONS of stuff to keep the Jeeps moving on trail rides!
I probably go through 5 or 6 a year fixing drag links or whatever.
I've welded in wrenches to get things back in, and done a bunch of things you would never do in a shop!

The plasma cutter attachment plugs into my Welder/Generator output and is an 'Add On', I don't always have it along.
It's handy to have for cutting away carnage, but it's like using a torch most times, you don't get that nice clean cut you do in the shop with a CNC cut,
But it's good enough for clearing out carnage so you can start repairs, wacking off rough length, ect.
I still finish with grinder or saw for proper fit, the mobile plasma cutter is definitely a 'Rough Cut' tool that doesn't require explosive gases that about anyone can use, where a good torch man is hard to find (And I'm TERRIBLE at cutting with torch!)

The welder is another story,
Since it's a big truck alternator capable of 160 amps all day long,
I take control of the rotor, add a rheostat type control so I can fine tune the arc, and it will make BEAUTIFUL AC or DC welds,
Straight or Reverse polarity, and by adjusting the RPM and using the simple rheostat adjustment, you don't have to adjust the throttle a dozen times to get the rod burning correctly.

I actually default to it quite often over dragging out the welder from the shop, (It's pretty large and in the back)
When it's REALLY easy to plug in my jumper cables to the Jeep bumper high amperage connector and weld away.

With up to 160 amps, I can arc gouge also, use it for a home made metal designator (EDM) to remove broken bolts, broken taps or broken easy outs, or bore precise holes in hardened stuff with nothing more than brass or even copper tubing.

Being able to remove a broken drill, tap or bolt is VERY handy, and EDM (Electronic Discharge Machining) is VERY simple once someone introduces you to the concept, and costs me about $30 to make an EDM rig for a common welder (Doesn't have to be an alternator welder, any old welder will do the job) so it's not only practical, but inexpensive... (But MESSY! You have to have water flow or water tank to do EDM the way I do it, and that means a big liquid mess!)

Being able to TIG Weld in AC or DC with a CO2 tank, Do high frequency AC Tig welding, 
TIG weld with a spool gun, Straight or Reverse Polarity, 
Stick weld in AC or DC, Straight or Revers Polarity,
Power up a plasma Cutter or EDM,
And have the second alternator still charge batteries and run AC tools,
That makes it WELL WORTH the $150 or so bucks I have in the entire unit.

The single biggest expense was the welding leads (Jumper Cables) and high amperage connectors to make them 'Quick Couple' units.
I use the connectors from large fork truck batteries, which run about $40 a pair if you get the good ones.

Behind that, the second biggest expense was the Plasma Torch which was $35 from E-bay.
The cheap Chinese torch isn't the issue, Each set of rebuild tips cost as much as the torch it's self, around $35 to rebuild.

If I do this again, it will be with a common plasma torch so I can get rebuild tips cheaper, and American made parts are ALWAYS better quality!
$150 for a torch isn't much considering most plasma cutters run about $800 or more (Much more for one that will blow through a 1" piece of steel like this one will at about 50 amps!)

The voltage/amperage gauges were cheap (surplus store), the rheostat was about $10 and controls amperage for everything from stick, to TIG, to MIG, to plasma to EDM, so that $10 makes it VERY controllable from the torch/stinger end of things...

With the flip of a switch, I have a REGULATED 160 amp capable alternator putting out at 14.5 or 14.7 volts in case the regular vehicle alternator gives up,
And it mounts in about 1 minute.

Since it's all made with 'Junk' parts, I don't really see a down side to it,
Other than the big truck alternator takes about 15 horsepower to properly operate when you are really digging with it,
So it's not practical for mounting to a lawnmower engine...
The engine to turn it will cost you more than a little portable welder will...
But 15 horsepower isn't an issue when vehicle mounted.

15 horsepower isn't an issue for 'V' belts, so you don't need a PTO or chain to drive it.

Everyone will have their own idea about things, and the comfort level about wiring/modifying things will be different for everyone...
I'm just comfortable with Alternators since I rebuilt them for a living, and the more I 'Mess With' these things, the more uses I find for them.

Now, consider this, 
For MIG or TIG welding, you WILL need shielding gas,
For MIG welding, you WILL need a spool gun compatible with your vehicle's 12 volt or 24 volt systems for the spool drive motor,
You WILL need to have a way to make solid, high current connections.
Jumper cables clamps are not what I'd call 'Reliable' for that purpose,
So I use high current connectors from fork truck batteries and solidly bolted down terminals on the generator end.

You WILL need 'Jumper' cables at least 4 Ga. or larger (2 Ga. Recommended),

You WILL need a way to regulate output, either a VERY sensitive throttle adjuster or like I do, regulate at the generator with a rheostat.

To run a plasma cutter,
You WILL need something for the pilot arc, like a stun gun,
You WILL need an 'Air' source, on board compressor, bottled gas of some sort, ect.
And you WILL have to wire in a low pressure switch to shut things down if the air pressure drops or you WILL burn up the torch tips in short order!
If you want a smooth, even arc in the plasma cutter, you WILL need some good size capacitors, which can be expensive unless you salvage them somewhere...

To do EDM, you WILL have to make the EDM rig, which MUST be insulated.
I build mine on HDPE (High Density Poly Ethylene), a non conductive plastic that is fairly cheap,
Or a sheet of Plexiglas, which is also pretty cheap in small quantities.
You WILL need a water source to keep the EDM tool from burning up during operation unless you use a carbon 'Gouge' rod,
Then you WILL have to keep the work piece cool in some way.
I use water because it's cheap.

To do EDM in the field, that means a water tank and pump.
Most broken bolts, taps, ect. take less than 5 gallons,
And if you are working in the driveway, the garden hose is fine.

*These 'Tools' are very crude, and you can EASILY, burn yourself, electrocute yourself, wind yourself up in belts & pulleys, ect.
So if you Don't have BASIC ELECTRICAL, AUTOMOTIVE & SHOP SAFETY SKILLS, Then DO NOT attempt!*


----------



## nj_m715

I guess that makes the plasma cutter sound more doable. I've familiar with them. I owned a larger suitcase sized snapon cutter a few years ago when I was doing more fabbing and jeep building, but I traded it for a tire machine that's still at my buddy's house.

My usual welder is 60amp miller mig. I forget the model off the top of my head, but it has nice digital read outs that are easy to adjust and is set for a plug in hand spool if I ever need to do AL. I've used a tig a couple times, but never really needed one. Again, I'm no pro, I'm just self taught. When I was a kid I got some prices to have the work done to my axles to make them spring over. When I got the quotes, I just decided to save up enough for a little 110v flux core mig. I used it to install new floors and fender on the jeep body. By the time I was done I had a good feel for running a mig. I upgraded to a small fluxcore 220v lincoln and did my axle work, winch mounts and spring hangers. I keep learning and going from there.

I'm using my stock large body ford alt. It makes enough power, but to do it I've got the 7.3 turning almost 4k. and I just don't like leaving it up there too long.
I'll have to look into a larger alternator, if I can make it fit easy enough. Is it from a tractor trailer or just a high out put replacement. I'll stick with what I have before I dump 2-3 hundred into an alternator. I just don't use it enough to justify the cost. 

I think I have 4ga. wire, but might be 6. I'll have to check. I used a golf cart charger plug. It's probably the same thing you have, just smaller. I think it's only rated at 60 or 70 amps. I kept a close eye on it the first couple times I used it. I was worried about it getting too hot. I put together most of my front hitch with out stopping after it was tacked up. I don't know how long it took, but it was a while. The plug was warm, but certainly not too hot so I was satisfied. I doubt I'll have to weld that long with it cranked all the way up to do any field repairs. 

I used the same cable and plug to attach my camper batteries to the truck to be able to charge the camper from the motor.


----------



## JeepHammer

When I started the alternator and starter rebuild business, it was mainly for big truck stuff and local coal/rock mine equipment.

When I leaned against the AC outputs of a Leece-Neville alternator and it made me wet my pants, that was the moment I started considering an alternator for AC output.

When we were kids on the farm, I made a bunch of Ford and GM alternators into welders for the farm trucks. Only had about 50 or 60 amp output, and you could only stick weld with them,
But the 'Weld-A-Nators' were COSTLY, so when I got a chance to take a burned up one apart and see how it worked, I started making my own.
Some of the family farm folks are still using alternators I converted in the 70's!
So they do live pretty well over time!

As I learned to weld with TIG, MIG, ect. I started to think maybe I could convert an alternator over to do those things.
And it's gone pretty well, 
It's not an 'All At Once' genius moment,
It's a "Well, lets see if we can make this generator do THIS now since it does this, this and this..."

I just keep adding on to the next version, looking for higher output alternators, looking for designs that have better accessibility to the AC and DC windings, ect.

The big problem I ran into with DC output like most alternators that are converted over is they are NEGATIVE ground units.
They ground through the case, so you don't get a chance to do 'Straight' polarity welding with DC rods on your own vehicle.

You can't isolate the negative from the vehicle ground, so you are stuck with 'Reverse' welding polarity, and you burn up more rod than get the weld to 'Dig'...

With the Leece-Neville, you get an isolated negative and positive terminal,
So you can weld on your own vehicle in 'Straight' polarity and get good penetration even on heavy work pieces.

When I leaned on the AC taps with a sweaty arm while working on one,
That was the moment I realized I didn't have to cut/gut the case for AC access... (right after I changed shorts and tried to ring the electrons out of my arm!  )

With the AC taps coming through the case, I don't have to mess with trying to tap them inside and run them outside, so I can provide AC to my tools,
With the engine revved up and a smaller pulley on the alternator, I can weld in high frequency AC...

Since I was using the shop welder for powering up things like home made EDM, I decided to make it work with the portable welder also.
Now, I don't carry around a plasma cutter or EDM around with me in the little Jeep, there simply isn't room.
I do have them in my Jeep trailer tool box, and I have built several versions for farm use for my family.
They are pretty handy for getting broken bolts, but more to the point, broken taps and easy outs that are hardened.

They also bore a nice clean hole in things like hardened cutting edges making them easier to mount, and if you have ever tried to drill a cutting edge for a grader or something, you know what a waste of time that is!
The EDM makes nice, clean holes, doesn't change the hardness of the material and saves a BUNCH of time when you are trying to put modern cutting edges on some old piece of equipment that no one makes parts for anymore.

The fact that we can do this in the fields makes for a REAL time saver and cuts WAY DOWN on the shop space clutter trying to get several pieces of equipment in the shop at the same time.
Farmers are frantic during planting and harvesting seasons,
So having things repaired in the field keeps us from trying to move things around for enough room to work in the shop while parts are coming in.

Leece-Neville alts are cheap, plentiful, hang on a ton of big trucks in the salvage yards, and most are between 105 and 165 amps, so they make PLENTY of power,
They come from the factory in 12, 24, 36 and 48 volt versions,
Roller bearings instead of bushing bearings, bearings are large and sturdy, they are EASY to work on and convert, you don't even have to open the case, and we have them on the shelf around here, so it was a natural choice for me.

You can do this without it looking like a wiring hair ball, so that helps the guys work with them, 
And the connectors I use are 'Idiot Proof', you can't hook them up backwards, and that helps too!

Since they are made to throw between 105 and 165 amps all day long, there isn't any problems with adding external rectifier bridges/heat sinks, so no exposed current and cool themselves well, they last a LONG TIME even in filthy conditions,
They are, after all, industrial grade alternators intended for industrial equipment...

I've seen some marketed welders do some pretty impressive things,
But I've never seen a marketed unit do the things we do with ours.

I'm not trying to sell it as a home game, but if you are into this kind of thing, then it's worth consideration since it has isolated ground and AC taps exposed and the regulator is a 'Cartridge' that is easily removed without splitting the case.
The adapter I use is made from Plexiglas and two brass screws, so they are VERY easy to convert over...

Just sharing my ideas with the forum...


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## nj_m715

"When I leaned against the AC outputs of a Leece-Neville alternator and it made me wet my pants, that was the moment I started considering an alternator for AC output."

I was just putting the finishing touches on my jeep exhaust when it started to drizzle. I figured that I'd be ok. It wasn't coming down hard, I was under the jeep and the welder was just inside the garage door. Besided I wanted It done and the tools were already out. I took off my glove and set it next to me to line up the last piece, but didn't realize that the glove was in a stream of run off from the fender. I put the damp glove back on and used that hand to brace the tourch while I tacked it. When I hit the trigger it felt like a linedrive just hit me in my armpit. It was about 15 yrs ago and the last time I had a welder out while it was raining. 

I'll google up some pics of those alt. and check with my local rebuilders and junkyards to see what I can find. One of my old jeep buddies worked for caterpillar and he could always come up with some good stuff, but he's been layed off.


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## nj_m715

There's a lot of different ones. Would you reccomend any one over the others?
Jeep I think I found one. I sent you a pm. I figured we've high jacked this thread enough.


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## JeepHammer

nj_m715 said:


> There's a lot of different ones. Would you reccomend any one over the others?
> Jeep I think I found one. I sent you a pm. I figured we've high jacked this thread enough.


Lester Rebuild numbers are what we go by most times,
And about any of the 76xx numbers are what I normally use.
I use the 105 Amp 7611 versions since they are 12 volt output for my batteries, and 105 amps is high enough for everything I do,
They are cheap, around $100 for a fresh rebuild and about $15-$20 in the salvage yards...

This is a Lester 7611, common as nails on the big trucks from years past,
Used on farm equipment, all over the place.










It's converted, regulator cartridge is removed, and I've taken control of the brushes/rotor with that Plexiglas plate and two brass screws.
Here is a close up of that plate,










The back of the alternator will look like this, and I've marked the easy access for your connections.










This particular unit is scrap, it was under water when the river flooded and it was stored low enough to get soaked and it's locked up,
I keep it for parts.

Usually speaking, a 3 amp fuse in the lines to the rotor is pleny, but I usually start low and move up to feel out the duty cycle.
You know we don't want to overheat the diodes in the rectifier, so keeping a heat gun handy to keep track of rectifier temps is a good idea until you get a feel for the duty cycle.

You CAN mount a second set of rectifiers on the back side of these cases to halve the load on the rectifiers to keep them from heating up, but I usually use the larger 160 amp rectifiers and don't have problems, I need to change rods before the rectifier gives up!

By having control of all three important things,
Current to the rotor to control output,
Control of both Positive and Negative output, you can weld in stright, reverse DC polarity, and you can fine tune the arc very easily.

I use a LARGE pully on the bottom, and control the amperage with the rheostat.
NAPA has rheostats for old time vehicle heater motors, and they work REALLY well for tuning,
And it's two wires to your 'Stinger', 
No more 4,000 RPM to get what you want, no more jumping up a dozen times to adjust the idle,
I set mine about 1,200 RPM and use the rheostat to control the output and most people can drag a really nice bead with just a little practice.

TIG welding I use the same deal, but the TIG rig has an even finer adjustment on the torch,
So I set course amperage with the larger knob, then fine tune with the finger control on the torch.
Since my torch came with the finger wheel control, might as well use it!

WATCH OUT when you TIG weld with this rig in DC!
You can get the tungsten WAY too hot in a heart beat!
I use a stun gun for the pilot arc, and it works better than the pilot on my big Miller at work!
Just watch your fingers when you strike the pilot or you might get a surprise!
(Like I said, this is CRUDE, but works, not for the guys that have to have a 'Idiot Proof' bathroom so they don't flush their heads accidentally!  )

When you wire the AC taps for 3 phase, use ONE for 'Ground' or 'Nutral', use the other two for a single outlet if you are going 110 volts.
Most of these Leece Neville has the 'Common', spaced away from the other two lines, so go with that. I usually put a volt gauge in the line so I can see what voltage I'm throwing at my tools!
Found out the hard way that my drills/saws don't like '110 volts' when the line voltage is more like 200 volts!
Just slow down the alternator or take some out of the rotor current to drop the voltage until you get it where you want it.

Now remember, this is going to be more like 400 cycles per minute, not 60 like the wall outlets,
So DO NOT use cycle specific induction motors!
They overheat in a heart beat and like to start fires!

If you plug it in and it starts to heat up like crazy right away, STOP USING IT!
And don't even think about trying TVs, Radios, or Computers on 400 cycles!
They will melt down in NO TIME!

That high frequency AC works GREAT for aluminum welding! You can REALLY burn in an aluminum weld, but remember, Aluminum takes a BUNCH of amperage, so Keep the rotor current turned full up when you are doing aluminum, and adjust output with engine speed...

Since you aren't loading the rectifier when welding AC, you don't have to worry about the diodes, but you WILL overheat the windings if you try and weld anything thicker than about 3/8" with the 160 Amp version...
(ASK me how I know that!  )

This thing is GREAT for bringing up fish and fishing worms!
I know you aren't supposed to shock fish, but we did it a couple of times to clean out ponds that were going to have the levee ripped out and rebuilt,
And it did GREAT to bring up the fish,
And if you wet the ground, you can make fishing worms jump right to the surface!
Never a shortage of bait when camping or at the lake!

Anyway, just some farm boy talk, if you don't feel comfortable, then don't mess with it.
If you have a look over it and decide to try it, then it's easy to work with.
Parts are everywhere, and cheap, and if you get stuck, let me know and I'll try to help out...


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