# Is Stock-Piling Food Illegal Or Not?



## neil-v1

I was speaking to a neighbor of my parents about getting ready in case the S.H.T.F. This guy tried to tell me that stock-piling food is illegal. Is he full of dung or is he correct? I looked online and some sites say yes and some say no way. I figured I would ask you all here. 

Even if it is illegal, I will still do it but I just want to know the facts. Thanks.


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## horseman09

Neil, I think someone is pulling your leg.


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## Sourdough

I go to town for groceries every (3) Three Months, I better be stock-piling, or I'll be Hungry........:dunno:


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## neil-v1

Well the man I was speaking to is really old.......I mean he is ancient. Maybe he is confused or thinks it is 1940???? I just wanted to ask to find out because plans would have to be made to keep even more out of sight.


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## Sourdough

Keep it out of sight, and keep yours and your families mouth shut. It is pointless to prepare, and have someone appropriate your preparations.


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## NaeKid

A stock-pile (hoarding) is when you go out and purchase everything in the entire store knowing full-well that the store will not be able to get fresh supplies for a week or so and purposely cause hardship for others.

Stocking-up is when you visit that same store and purchase a case-lot of goods, but, leave lots of stock on the shelves for others. A slight difference, but, if word is out that a huricane is on its way and you buy everything out of the store, it would be criminal because many others could suffer.

I can go to the local grocery-warehouse and buy a case of toilet paper. It doesn't matter because there are another 15 cases sitting right beside the case that I want. While there, I can purchase 4 cases of cabbage to make some borscht and no-one will look at me twice - because there are another 30 cases ready for the next person to pick-over.

I am getting my shopping-list ready for my next run to the warehouse - I just cleaned-out my upstairs-closet of bathroom-supplies and moved my stocks from the basement upstairs and I have to replenish my basement-stocks.

If you slowly stock-up your shelves in such a way that you do not bring attention to yourself, it isn't a criminal action. If you are video'd for the evening news segment because you got into a fight over the last case of beans in the store when only taking one can would be the right thing to do, it would be considered criminal.


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## gypsysue

The Mormons have for years encouraged storing at least a 1-year supply of food, and that's universal no matter where they live.

Our stores here have "stock-up case-lot" sales in the spring and fall. Normally we only get to town every couple months, a "real" town, I mean, other than the small market about 8 miles from us.

I think the "illegal" part might be if they declare martial law. I've heard that they can decree that no one have more than a 3-day supply on hand. That'd be tough in remote areas!


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## HarleyRider

No officer... I'm not stockpiling... I just have a very large family.


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## horseman09

Neil, I think your older friend might have been referring to wartime hoarding.

A whole bunch of different laws and regulations as well as strict rationing of meat, butter, suger, flour, tires, gasoline -- all the necessities were stringently rationed. I might be an old goat, but I wasn't even thought of during the war years. However, my Dad served in Europe and my Mom was a Rosie the Riveter, so I remember many of the stories. 

We all take soooooooo much for granted today.


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## neil-v1

I am sure now that he is probably thinking way, way back. Like I said, he is very old. I will just keep doing what I am doing.


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## UncleJoe

This story often comes up when the subject of hoarding is discussed. The laws that applied then have never been removed from the books.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=940CEEDD1238EE32A25753C3A9639C946996D6CF


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## TotallyReady

Stockpiling is not illegal in the US. Stockpiling is creating a supply of food or other items during a time of plenty. Hoarding is purchasing more than you can reasonably use during a time of crisis and want. Hoarding when an emergency has been declared can be illegal. That is why we prepare now so we won't have to go to the store when the crisis comes and we can stay under the radar.


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## gypsysue

Wow, quite an article, unclejoe. They had some serious preps! 

Yep, we all need to go about our business. As Ragnor Benson said, look like you are no one of interest and like you have nothing they want.


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## Bigdog57

To a Prepper, it is stocking up for the emergencies we know are coming.
It's 'hoarding' to those who DIDN'T stock up and are now starving, or to the Government seeking to control the populace.
BOTH will take your stocks and leave YOU starving. 
Buy cheap, stack deep, and hide well!


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## lanahi

neil-v1 said:


> Well the man I was speaking to is really old.......I mean he is ancient. Maybe he is confused or thinks it is 1940???? I just wanted to ask to find out because plans would have to be made to keep even more out of sight.


He is probably thinking of hoarding, which is different. At times of scarcity, such as maybe during the depression, hoarding is often illegal.

Stockpiling when food is still abundant is not illegal. 
Hoarding is when SHTF and everyone is trying to grab up whatever scarce items there are at the last minute so no one else can have it. 
Like during Katrina, there were reports of people filling up barrels and barrels of fuel at the pumps when there was a long line behind them of people desperate to get their cars fueled. Or if there are 10 packages or rice left on the supermarket shelf, and you take all 10 when you've already got 5 years of it at home and someone behind you has nothing, that's hoarding, IMO. Of course, you likely won't get out the door with all those 10 packages of rice, but...
The government might have other definitions too.


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## Judygranny

*Stockpiling food*

There was some flack a couple years ago over some new regs from USDA. Chicken Littles thought the regs stated there could be no stock-piling of foods, etc. After looking up the regs in question, I decided that's NOT what they said, and there was a lot of angst over nothing. There were rumors flying for awhile, but it's not anything to worry about. The feds may have the resources to check on folks, but that's not where their interest is for now. However, it's always prudent to keep a low profile for the reasons already stated.
I take umbrage at calling the older guy senile because he's old. seems he has a better memory and more experience than the originator of this post! He's the one you should be learning from as he probably remembers how things were done before we were so dependent on oil, plastic, etc.


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## kyfarmer

Maybe, maybe not how fast would ya thing it would take congress or the potus to enact an emergency order. Yep best to keep quite about it for sure. I think making preppers into hoarders would be to their advantage. Focus off the issue onto something else, us. National public new's announcement, if you know one of those so called survivalist / hoarders report then to the police, because all resources belong to all Americans. Just the thought gives me the willies. Ya might as well get ready for something like this, they are more than dirty enough to take your families resources. :gaah:


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## HarleyRider

I think our best bet is to continue "stockpiling" what we need. So far, stockpiling is not illegal, and if the government should decide to change the rules and call it "hoarding" we would be grandfathered in as "stockpiling" since our goods were purchased prior to any new rulings. It might be wise to keep a bunch of purchase receipts hidden really well that show dates to prove you weren't hoarding at the time and therefore are innocent of any crime. I'm not too worried... good luck trying to find most of my stockpile; they would have to completely tear down the house to find all my hidden and insulated compartments.


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## allen_idaho

Unless a rationing system is put back into place, stockpiling food and supplies is not illegal. Unless, of course, you are stockpiling a rare and banned material like some types of wood, rhino horn, elephant ivory, illegal firearms, illegal fireworks or explosives, etc., etc., etc.

During the 1940's, stockpiling food and certain metals was illegal because it was needed for the troops and factories during World War 2. People were given ration chits which limited the amount of certain supplies they could buy. 

During the 1970's, a similar thing happened with gas due to the illusion of a shortage put on by OPEC. 

And the possibility exists that as certain materials become harder to find, they too will become illegal to stockpile. 

In the event of a global catastrophe, something similar could potentially be put in place again. Major food shortages, major gas shortages, dwindling supplies of oil, freshwater, lithium, copper, etc. coupled with uncontrolled global population growth means it is a very likely gradual SHTF scenario.


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## wildman800

To the best of my memory, "hoarding" is prohibited by Presidential Directive and is defined as having more than 3 days of food in the home.

This applies during a declared emergency and I personally doubt if there would be any grandfathering for "preppers".

From personal experience, if, during an approaching emergency such as a hurricane, neighbors and relatives will take notice if you don't join the herd in the rush for the last remaining supplies. It is best to say that you'd already been fighting the crowded stores and are too exhausted to make another try.:sssh:


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## Bigdog57

Nope, best to take your place in line, get your case of Red Cross water and case of MRE's and return home. And as the 'emergency' goes on, lose some weight, don't shave so close, adapt the same haggard look as every other sheeple, and wear clothes a size or two too big...... 

"Baaaaaahhhh, woe is me! I'm a sheep. Baaaa....."

Blend with the herd - less chance of getting 'fleeced'. I'd even wear an obama pin if it makes the Jackboots look the other way.


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## gypsysue

Absolutely, Bigdog57. "Baaaaahh". I had a friend that used to say "Agree with thine enemy quickly". He wasn't a coward, in fact he was a Martial Arts instructor. Maybe that's why he was smart enough to try and avoid a fight if he could?

I'd feel bad getting in line to take food I didn't need, but I'd feel even worse if it was noticed and the general populace or government came to see why I didn't. 

Yup, keep pace with the growing grungy look. Might be kinda fun, too!


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## Clarice

I agree. We plan to blend in and keep a low profile.


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## 101airborne

gypsysue said:


> I'd feel bad getting in line to take food I didn't need, but I'd feel even worse if it was noticed and the general populace or government came to see why I didn't.


 Worse case you could use them for barter or to give to the enevitable " knock on your door and ask for a handout" bunch


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## unclebob

Supposedly the 90s Clinton crime bill had a provision that limited food storage to a 6-month supply.
While I never read it, I do know the LDS church protested it and the said it was part of their religious freedom to store food.


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## truecarnage

Definitely a lot to think about, but if the S.H.T.F. and the government is giving out food rations then I think the Obama cronies will have more to worry about than searching my entire house and yard for any and all food stores and or survival supplies that I might have.


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## Salekdarling

So does this mean I shouldn't let people know I'm a survivalist? It doesn't make sense that we need to keep a low profile and yet try to convince family and friends about possible SHTF scenarios. You never know who would rat you out if stock piling became illegal.


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## lotsoflead

less than a hundred yrs ago, almost everyone in America that lived in the country raised enough food to last them til the following summer when the next crop would be ripe, cellers and root cellers were always full,hams and bacons were hanging and meat was canned. When did we lose control of our right to live?


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## Diego2112

lotsoflead said:


> ... When did we lose control of our right to live?


When we let the government decide what's best?

:2thumb:"Hello, I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help!":2thumb:


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## UncleJoe

Salekdarling said:


> So does this mean I shouldn't let people know I'm a survivalist? It doesn't make sense that we need to keep a low profile and yet try to convince family and friends about possible SHTF scenarios.


I fell it's more a matter of *who* you tell. I don't broadcast to the world that I have food stored. I do however discuss it with family and close friends until I get that look. As lotsiflead said, not long ago it was considered normal to have enough stored for the winter. My grandparents always had a full pantry. LDS considers it almost mandatory to have a years supply of food on hand. 
It would be nearly impossible for the .gov to run around to every house in the country looking for excessive food supplies. Telling everyone you meet would however make their job much easier. Talk about it, but use some discretion.


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## Bigdog57

I find it better to 'take baby steps' with regard to trying to get others to open their eyes. Living in not-always-sunny Florida, I can use the spectre of hurricane and other natural disasters to open the dialog. Discuss what they would do IF the Big One hit, and they were without power and water for two weeks. Don't scare them with the big numbers yet. Get them interested.
Tell them of the simple 'common sense' of having enough water, food and the ability to cook and take care of hygiene for that period of time.
I do NOT let them know the extents of my preps. I do let them know anything I have is for ME and mine, and they need to do the same.

Those who are genuinely interested, I can go further in time. Those who 'poopoo' the idea of prepping, I never mention it again to them. They are on their own.


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## 101airborne

UncleJoe said:


> I fell it's more a matter of *who* you tell. I don't broadcast to the world that I have food stored. I do however discuss it with family and close friends until I get that look. As lotsiflead said, not long ago it was considered normal to have enough stored for the winter. My grandparents always had a full pantry. LDS considers it almost mandatory to have a years supply of food on hand.
> It would be nearly impossible for the .gov to run around to every house in the country looking for excessive food supplies. Telling everyone you meet would however make their job much easier. Talk about it, but use some discretion.


+1 here. Telling family YES, tryn to convince family to do the same YES!! Tell friends......???:scratch Tough choice, maybe only give them a minimum of information, eveybody else...:sssh: Like uncle joe said failure to maintain opsec is the easiest way to assure unwanted company during shtf. As for me my immediate family, and a few like minded friends know how much I have stored. Others I try to give the minimum or no info.


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## Diego2112

*Wholeheartedly Agree!*



oldsoldier said:


> +1 here. Telling family YES, tryn to convince family to do the same YES!! Tell friends......???:scratch Tough choice, maybe only give them a minimum of information, eveybody else...:sssh: Like uncle joe said failure to maintain opsec is the easiest way to assure unwanted company during shtf. As for me my immediate family, and a few like minded friends know how much I have stored. Others I try to give the minimum or no info.


Lucky me, my family are all preppers to some degree or other. As far as my FRIENDS... I've told a couple of VERY close people I'm getting ready for somthing, but not to what extent. I HAVE told them where to go to find inexpensive goods, and have even given them pointers on there setup for HOW to store them if they so decide.

Of couse, what you have to remember with me and MY friends, where as we DONT subscribe to 2012 (ok, well, Fluffy does), we do ALL FIRMLY believe something is coming. Have I told them ALL of my preps/plans/hideieholes? That'd be a RESOUNDING NO. I've not anyone other than my wife and my da, because he's helping me get it READY!

You'll know who you can tell by the level of glaze their eyes get when you start talking.


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## 101airborne

Diego2112 said:


> Lucky me, my family are all preppers to some degree or other. As far as my FRIENDS... I've told a couple of VERY close people I'm getting ready for somthing, but not to what extent. I HAVE told them where to go to find inexpensive goods, and have even given them pointers on there setup for HOW to store them if they so decide.
> 
> Of couse, what you have to remember with me and MY friends, where as we DONT subscribe to 2012 (ok, well, Fluffy does), we do ALL FIRMLY believe something is coming. Have I told them ALL of my preps/plans/hideieholes? That'd be a RESOUNDING NO. I've not anyone other than my wife and my da, because he's helping me get it READY!
> 
> You'll know who you can tell by the level of glaze their eyes get when you start talking.


Excellent post I as well don't subscribe to all the 2012 hype. IMHO more likely it would/will be more along the lines of an econamic colapse or a major terrorist type situation.


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## Idaholady

This is the answer to your question and more. I will post the website where I got the information and you can read more about it:

Millennium-Ark: Executive Orders and Storing-Is It Lawful?

DISCLAIMER: Any findings of law or conclusions reached are those made by the user, and information provided on Millennium-Ark or Noah's Ark concerning state or federal law is for information and research purposes only and not to be construed as legal advice.

*Can Our Government Really Tell Us How Much Food and Supplies We Can Keep?*

The short answer is YES, in a roundabout way. Due to numerous discussions questioning the existence of federal anti-hoarding legislation, I wanted to see if such Executive Orders had been written. First and foremost, we do not want to suggest people store items beyond "legal limits" if such limits did exist. Second, we want to separate fact from rumor buzzing around the Internet which has only added to the confusion. This search has yielded no federal legislation aimed directly at prohibiting food storage. But this does not mean "hoarding" is legal, and here's why.

*So What Exactly Is An Executive Order?*

Executive Orders (EO) have been used by presidents since the days of George Washington. The first EO addressed Washington's normal household expenses which ones were be accepted and paid by the Treasury Department. Pretty innocuous. The FBI was formed under an executive order by Teddy Roosevelt on July 26, 1908. The first time it was used to make a law was in 1916 by President Woodrow Wilson. It was said to be an 'emergency' measure and Congress was encouraged to validate it. They did and now the door was now open to ignore the Constitution. This is the same method used by Franklin Roosevelt in 1933 to close all the banks in the country. Americans were ordered to turn in all their gold to local banks.

The general purpose of an executive order is to provide the President with a mechanism for executing laws passed by Congress, not control of lives. These EOs are issued by the President as directives to agencies responsible for implementing laws.

However, some presidents take Executive Orders too far confusing EO with executive lawmaking. This "rule by executive order" observation was made no clearer than by Paul Begala, a former Bill Clinton aide: "Stroke of the pen. Law of the land. Kind of cool."1

While Begala thought this action "cool", others did not. House Majority Leader Dick Armey said, "With the stroke of a pen, he may have done irreparable harm to individual rights and liberties." He went on to add, "President Clinton seems bent on using his powers until someone says stop. President Clinton is running roughshod over our Constitution."2 NOTE: December 12, 2001, Dick Armey announced retirement at the end of his 2002 term.

Since the U.S. Constitution places responsibility for executing laws in the hands of the President, issuing EOs is an appropriate means of carrying out the responsibilities IF they are within the bounds of the Constitution. President Kennedy, during his short time in office, signed into law 214 Executive Orders. Numerous Kennedy EOs have brought about positive changes for the American people such as:

11063 - Equal Opportunity in Housing

10914 - Food Distribution to Needy Families

11022 - Council on Aging

11925 - Equal Opportunity in Employment

These Kennedy EOs have a distinctly different flavor though aimed at preserving individual rights, not usurping them. Many EOs overstep Constitutional authority and consequently, are an exercise of unconstitutional power.

*So Where Do Anti-Hoarding Laws Come In?*

These ideas of anti-hoarding legislation may have stemmed from two areas of confusion:

First is from Executive Orders in place dating back to 1939 which Clinton has grouped together under one order, EO #12919 released on June 6, 1994. The following EOs all fall under EO#12919:

10995--Federal seizure of all communications media in the US; 
10997--Federal seizure of all electric power, fuels, minerals, public and private; 
10998--Federal seizure of all food supplies and resources, public and private and all farms and equipment; 
10999--Federal seizure of all means of transportation, including cars, trucks, or vehicles of any kind and total control over all highways, seaports and water ways;
11000--Federal seizure of American people for work forces under federal supervision, including the splitting up of families if the government so desires; 
11001--Federal seizure of all health, education and welfare facilities, both public and private; 
11002--Empowers the Postmaster General to register every single person in the US
11003--Federal seizure of all airports and aircraft; 
11004--Federal seizure of all housing and finances and authority to establish forced relocation. Authority to designate areas to be abandoned as "unsafe," establish new locations for populations, relocate communities, build new housing with public funds; 
11005--Seizure of all railroads, inland waterways and storage facilities, both public and private; 
11051--Provides FEMA complete authorization to put above orders into effect in times of increased international tension of economic or financial crisis (FEMA will be in control incase of "National Emergency").

These EOs are not aimed at anti-hoarding but rather at seizure or confiscation of items and facilities "to provide a state of readiness in these resource areas with respect to all conditions of national emergency, including attack upon the United States." You'll find most 'seizure' legislation ends with this phrase. These Executive Orders don't define what specifically constitutes a national emergency and maybe this is as it should be. The specifics on hoarding are left up to the individual states.

Go to the above referenced website for the rest of the information.


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## SolarDeco

Hi Everyone, 
I'm new here. This is the first thread I chose to read. What bothers me is if a food shortage truly does come to pass, whatever I have stored will last me only half the time when I have to share it--because who's going to let a good friend starve. Those who refuse to prepare hurt more than themselves.


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## basicposter

neil-v1 said:


> I was speaking to a neighbor of my parents about getting ready in case the S.H.T.F. This guy tried to tell me that stock-piling food is illegal. Is he full of dung or is he correct? I looked online and some sites say yes and some say no way. I figured I would ask you all here.
> 
> Even if it is illegal, I will still do it but I just want to know the facts. Thanks.


EXECUTIVE ORDER 10998 allows the government to take over all food resources and farms.
there were eo's before this that dealt with this subject.... this one was signed by JFK in feb of 1962, and revoked by eo 11490 in 1969 ,which was revoked by eo12656 in 1988 which was amended by eo's 13074,13228 and 13286 in 1998 ,2001,and 2003 respectively. In 2003 Homeland security got in on the act.

I think we are living under the rules spelled out in several eo's comcerning this mater now...

BASICALLY IF THEY NEED IT THEY WILL TAKE IT.

so remember the 1st rule of survival club.

( was this my 1st post ...hope it was not too dry )


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## SolarDeco

Regardless of an eo or not, they'll enact what suits them. It's probably safest to walk around looking like you're hungry, even if you're not.


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## Salekdarling

I'll stay hush hush for now on. I mentioned my prepping to some friends and instead of prepping on their own they told me they would come find me to help them. Umm, no...I would rather you take care of yourself then come running to me.


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## Diego2112

SolarDeco said:


> Regardless of an eo or not, they'll enact what suits them. It's probably safest to walk around looking like you're hungry, even if you're not.


You got that right!

Never forget those timeless Orwellian words: *Big Brother is Watching You!*


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## UncleJoe

Salekdarling said:


> I mentioned my prepping to some friends and instead of prepping on their own they told me they would come find me to help them.


I made that same mistake a few years ago. I was talking to an acquaintance and mentioned that we were starting to can and dry as much garden produce as possible. His response; "I know where I'm going if things get tough."  I learned right there to keep my big mouth shut.


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## The_Blob

UncleJoe said:


> I made that same mistake a few years ago. I was talking to an acquaintance and mentioned that we were starting to can and dry as much garden produce as possible. His response; "I know where I'm going if things get tough."  I learned right there to keep my big mouth shut.


THAT is exactly the same boat I am in now...

I'm NOT the best ant in the hill, but now I'm surrounded by grasshoppers :gaah:


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## UncleJoe

Unfortunately, I think most of us are surrounded by grasshoppers  which is going to mean turning people away.


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## neil-v1

When it comes to prepping, I just keep my face zipped. I don't want to see bad things happen to good people but when the sh*t hits the fan, they will have nobody to blame but themselves. The info is out there for everyone to see and hear now. If non prepper's don't step it up they will suffer in the worst way. People need to stop buying jet ski's and fancy cars and pay attention and get ready in case things fall apart. If not, all their fancy cars will be sitting idle waiting for all of us who do prep to drain their gas later on. It will be hard but I will turn away anyone in order to keep what I have to keep my kids alive.


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## greaseman

Hoarding isn't illegal now, but when food gets short, don't be caught loading up extras, cause people that were too stupid to put something away for hard times will want your stuff. Best to watch all the fights on the six-oclock news, in the comfort of your well stocked fortress.
Did you not seen the thousands of people showing up in Atlanta for discount vouchers for section 8 housing??? 450 vouchers---30,000 people show up. When food gets short, same thing will happen, except there will be riots. Hunger will do that to a man..
Stockpile now, as nobody cares. But soon enough, when disruptions start, and petty, stupid sheeple, who can barely do anything for themselves think someone is getting their share of government cheese, things will get nasty.
good luck.


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## SolarDeco

I do have a request for suggestions though. What if ....
What if it really does get *B*-*A*-*D*. You have your stash. When you cook it, people will be able to smell the aroma from your home, then what? They break in, beat down your door? That's a worse-case scenario, but if it gets that bad, this type of thing needs to be considered.
Anybody thought that through as to a solution?


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## Elinor0987

SolarDeco said:


> I do have a request for suggestions though. What if ....
> What if it really does get b-a-d. You have your stash. When you cook it, people will be able to smell the aroma from your home, then what? They break in, beat down your door? That's a worse-case scenario, but if it gets that bad, this type of thing needs to be considered.
> Anybody thought that through as to a solution?


That's what shotguns are for!:2thumb: An alternative to that situation would be storing foods that don't require cooking prior to eating.


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## lotsoflead

When these hungry hoards of people finally wake up and find out that the government isn't coming to feed them, that the soup was sold long ago and they're on their own, they'll be weak, tired and hungey going up against well nourished folks who are rested and waiting for them.
If the price of gas goes out of sight, they won't travel far anyway.they'll be killing each other.


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## greaseman

To all of those people who are perhaps new to the prep scene, and say, Oh I don't think it's going to get that bad", it IS going to get that bad. Look at the real world. Drive around your town, see who things are now. I live in an urban area. The local food banks are over whealmed at the ammount of newly hungrey people that show up everyday. Thousands have lost all income, are losing their homes, and were already living paycheck to paycheck. Give it a few more months. The government will eventually slow down the entitlements, and later stop them. They need those funds for another stimulus of the "too big to fails". Very soon, the masses of sheeple out there will be on their own. When the government heads underground, and leaves the rest of us to take care of our own, you better have your stuff ready. It's coming folks, and even the mildest case of unrest is going to be a challenge for all of us. Prep for the worst, and if anything else happens, you'll be able to handle things ok.


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## Bigdog57

Yep, gotta stay 'gray'. My neighbors do NOT know I am prepping. A backyard privacy fence is a GOOD thing. I never unload the van out front - always in private.
I did discuss the need for stocking some emergency essentials back with a co-worker once. He gave me the old "I'm coming to YOUR place!" statement - I began looking closely at him, up and down.....
Nervously he asked what I was looking at? I told him I was trying to figure how much meat he'd dress out at.
He doesn't say much anymore....... 

He doesn't know where I live either.


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## unclebob

I asked one friend to take me to Sam's club to look around as he needed to go anyway. While there I picked up some big bags of rice and sugar. After that he was almost lecturing about what a waste it was of money for me to store things like that. 
I asked another friend what he planned to do in case of an emergency. His reply was alarming. "I am coming to your house out in the country." The second thing out of his mouth was "he could bring some Mexicans with him because his daughter is with one and she would want to bring her kids daddy along with them."
My reply was simple. Make sure you bring a lot of barbeque sauce and spices for each of them. And if they could stage themselves for one to arrive every few days that would be a big help cause I've heard people cook slowly. :beercheer:
I sure learned a surprising lesson.
Preps need to be done in silence to outsiders.  
If you have anything of use, you will be a target. Whether it is a neighbor or the LEO acting on orders from the city or county managers. And please don't take this the wrong way but a self-serving LEO may be your worst nightmare they already have 2 of the 3 things needed to take your stuff. They have authority behind them (right or wrong), they have the tools. The only thing they lack is the knowledge you have them. I now plan to keep it that way.


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## Bidadisndat

Salekdarling said:


> So does this mean I shouldn't let people know I'm a survivalist? It doesn't make sense that we need to keep a low profile and yet try to convince family and friends about possible SHTF scenarios. You never know who would rat you out if stock piling became illegal.


There _are_ those that might "rat you out", however the real danger would come from those who, not having prepared themselves, would attempt to take your preps by force. Some people know we prep, but _nobody_ knows to what extent, and I don't intend to tell anybody. If our home was to be raided and our preps were confiscated or stolen, it would be a blow, but not one from which we couldn't recover. (There's a lot to be said for a remote BOL and off-site storage.  )


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## Bigdog57

Exactly right. That sweet 'little old lady' next door will, when TSHTF bigtime, suddenly turn into Rambo-Granny when faced with having to feed herself and her 27 cats, her larder is bare, and she knows you prep! She'll weedle, cajole, steal and try to kill you......... NOBODY is an angel when they get hungry. 
Even worse, the high schooler down the street, he tweets his posse, and pretty soon there's a line of kids with NO scruples bashing your door in and passing YOUR preps out to their vans and Ricer-cars....... They'll be partying hardy tonight!! 

Stay GRAY!! eep:


----------



## JeepHammer

neil-v1 said:


> I was speaking to a neighbor of my parents about getting ready in case the S.H.T.F. This guy tried to tell me that stock-piling food is illegal. Is he full of dung or is he correct? I looked online and some sites say yes and some say no way. I figured I would ask you all here.
> 
> Even if it is illegal, I will still do it but I just want to know the facts. Thanks.


Right now, it's NOT illegal.
During 'Crisis' or 'Emergency' or 'Martial Law', it's called 'Hording' and it will be illegal at that time to 'Horde' resources.

Anything you have stockpiled before that time is legal.

----------------

On a side note,
Stockpiling for yourself/your family is fine.
If you try to trade/barter/sell food that is OUT DATED, that is a crime.

If your family consumes 'Out Dated' food, that is one thing,
And we all know that the shelf life of food increases or decreases with the way it is stored...
So the 'Use By' date can be extended by several years when stored in a cool, dry place away from sun light and temperature changes,
But you CAN NOT sell 'Out Dated' food or foods that were preserved outside of the USDA inspection process. (home canned)

The local Amish ran into a real problem with the feds selling Jelly & Jam that were manufactured outside of the USDA inspection process for local sale...
That's how I know about that one!

If you are stockpiling for yourself/family, then there aren't any issues at all...


----------



## JeepHammer

Bigdog57 said:


> Exactly right. That sweet 'little old lady' next door will, when TSHTF bigtime, suddenly turn into Rambo-Granny when faced with having to feed herself and her 27 cats, her larder is bare, and she knows you prep! She'll weedle, cajole, steal and try to kill you......... NOBODY is an angel when they get hungry.
> Even worse, the high schooler down the street, he tweets his posse, and pretty soon there's a line of kids with NO scruples bashing your door in and passing YOUR preps out to their vans and Ricer-cars....... They'll be partying hardy tonight!!
> 
> Stay GRAY!! eep:


WOW!

I hope you have just seen too many 'Mad Max' movies...

Around here, when the "deification hits the rotary wind machine",
Neighbors pull together, help each other out, and try to make the best of the situation...

I sure hope the stuff the 'End Of The World' types are pumping is crap!
I'm betting it is, so I'm trying to live 'Sustainable',
I grow it, I home can it, I produce my own power and water for the most part,
And I'm hoping that if the worst happens, I can help my NEIGHBORS do the same...

Then again, I don't watch 'Zombie Movies'... So maybe there is something I've missed...


----------



## lotsoflead

JeepHammer said:


> WOW!
> 
> I hope you have just seen too many 'Mad Max' movies...
> 
> Around here, when the "deification hits the rotary wind machine",
> Neighbors pull together, help each other out, and try to make the best of the situation...
> 
> And I'm hoping that if the worst happens, I can help my NEIGHBORS do the same...
> 
> ..


 I envy you as I haven't seen very many people pulling together since WW2


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## Bigdog57

JH, there have been several Home Invasions hereabouts - basic CRIME. They are just after stuff to sell for drug money. Now, faced with starvation, they sure didn't stock anything in their crib - do YOU really think Homey and the Gang will stand meekly in the Red Cross line for a box of out-dated MREs and a few bottles of water...?
Not when there's lines of homes up and down the streets, and the cops are in town guarding the Elite.

I hope it DOESN'T get this bad - but I WILL be prepared. 
I reckon you have a better class of neighbors than most of us - then again, maybe you really don't........ :scratch


----------



## NaeKid

Bigdog57 said:


> JH, there have been several Home Invasions hereabouts - basic CRIME. They are just after stuff to sell for drug money. Now, faced with starvation, they sure didn't stock anything in their crib - do YOU really think Homey and the Gang will stand meekly in the Red Cross line for a box of out-dated MREs and a few bottles of water...?
> Not when there's lines of homes up and down the streets, and the cops are in town guarding the Elite.
> 
> I hope it DOESN'T get this bad - but I WILL be prepared.
> I reckon you have a better class of neighbors than most of us - then again, maybe you really don't........ :scratch


This mornin' I was workin' out in the front yard and noticed a police-car doing a very (VERY) slow cruise up the street. He hung out a bit, turned about and came back down the street slowly and stopped right in front of my house. He commented on the Jeeps parked there (good comments!!! :congrat: ) so I asked what was up. He tells me that there is a homeless dude wanderin' the neighborhood causing all kinds of levels of grief for the residents. He gave me a description of the dude so that I would know him when I see him.

5 minutes later I was talkin' to one of my good neighbors who tells me that he has seen the homeless dude and didn't get a good feelin' from that sighting. That good neighbor (home quite a bit of the time) said that he'll call 9-1-1 next time he sees that homeless dude ...


----------



## OldCootHillbilly

We got a taste of how it could be bout 2 years ago durin the flood. People were fightin in the stores over the bottled water, they had ta have the cops in all the stores ta keep em from beatin on each other! Then, they started breakin inta the houses that folks had left because a the risin flood waters.

I ain't takin to many chances, there be a few people I help out an trust. Most will just have ta deal with the circumstance cause they ain't smart enough ta do anything now.

Do I like that situation? No, but reality sucks somtimes. Hopefully there will be help fer this folks, I will help those I can, but I can't help everbody.


----------



## mdprepper

I know that there is NOTHING I wouldn't do to take care of my family. I am FAR, FAR, FAR from perfect, but I do have morals and scruples. Would that stop me if my kids were starving? You better believe that if my choice was to steal some food or watch my kids die, I would steal the food. Now, in my normal everyday life would I dare to steal from someone? NEVER. That is why I prepare. To never find myself in that kind of situation.

So, if I, (who would normally never do something like that) can admit that in a life or death situation, I would be willing to break the law, lower my standards, abandon my morals, what do you think people who do NOT have the same moral compass would do? People are killing each other over cars, money, because you walked on the wrong side of the street or whatever NOW, do you think they will suddenly become wonderful upstanding citizens because SHTF? I sincerely doubt it.

Would I love to think my neighbors would all band together, protect each other, work together for the good of the community? You bet. But I have been to the association meetings where they want to kill each other or sue each other because someone parked in their parking spot, hated the color the neighbor painted their shutters and their kids make too much noise before 8am on a Saturday.


----------



## The_Blob

Bigdog57 said:


> Even worse, the high schooler down the street, he tweets his posse, and pretty soon there's a line of kids with NO scruples bashing your door in and passing YOUR preps out to their vans and Ricer-cars....... They'll be partying hardy tonight!!
> 
> Stay GRAY!! eep:


is it amazing to anybody else that so many people that don't have 'the neccessities' STILL manage to keep their 'luxuries' cell phones, cable TV, spinning rim hoopties etc etc?... true the WORLD over (just read somewhere that in India more people have cell phones than have TOILETS in their home... this is after the Indian govt. gave 5200 rupees to each PERSON, not family -- PERSON! that means a family of 5 got 26000 rupees) :nuts:

:gaah: :gaah: :gaah:


----------



## gypsysue

Where we lived in rural SE Kentucky we had neighbors who had satelite TV, and 4-wheeler ATV's to run around on...and they didn't have indoor plumbing, they carried water in from a well handpump in the yard! 

Look how many people interviewed on TV as not being able to afford food are holding a cigarette and have the gravelly voice that tends to indicate that it's a regular habit for them!

Some people seem to take it for granted that food will appear...somehow and by someone...someone ELSE, that is.

The SHTF will catch a lot of people by surprise, amazing as that may seem.


----------



## Bigdog57

One thing that gave me the old "WTF!?" moment was seeing video of people smashing into stores during Katrina, and carrying out big screen TVs and other useless electronic junk they had no use for. NO POWER!
I had a mental image of groups of dirt-poor refugees sitting in a half circle around a dark TV hoping something would come on the tube........ :scratch


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## OldCootHillbilly

My wife's niece was goin ta school to become a minister, well, she isn't goin back this year because she didn't work much this summer, to busy runin round ta work. The church she goes to said "Don't worry, God will Provide"! Well, God's a bit busy an musta missed the note on that one. I've always said, "God helps them what helps themselves"!

That's why we prepare fer whatever we feel we need to, weather it be with supplies, food an water er in your spiritual ways.

God bless the prepared.
Rev. Coot


----------



## Emerald

Bigdog57 said:


> One thing that gave me the old "WTF!?" moment was seeing video of people smashing into stores during Katrina, and carrying out big screen TVs and other useless electronic junk they had no use for. NO POWER!
> I had a mental image of groups of dirt-poor refugees sitting in a half circle around a dark TV hoping something would come on the tube........ :scratch


I'd have to say that *they *were not hungry nuf yet!
But something that really bothered me here in my state, while watching the aftermath of Katrina was-- one channel showed white folks looting stores and getting bottled water/food/soda and said that they were "doing what needed to be done to survive" while on another channel pictures and video of black folks doing the same(water and soda) were out and out called LOOTERS! In that situation, you know that the store owners are gonna get paid from the insurance- I certainly would expect to "survive" however I could till IF and/or WHEN help was coming. And in the event that "help" wasn't coming-- it ain't gonna matter.


----------



## goose

OldCootHillbilly said:


> My wife's niece was goin ta school to become a minister, well, she isn't goin back this year because she didn't work much this summer, to busy runin round ta work. The church she goes to said "Don't worry, God will Provide"! Well, God's a bit busy an musta missed the note on that one. I've always said, "God helps them what helps themselves"!
> 
> That's why we prepare fer whatever we feel we need to, weather it be with supplies, food an water er in your spiritual ways.
> 
> God bless the prepared.
> Rev. Coot


Reminds me of a story:

A family is facing rising floodwaters but, being the rather pious type, put their faith in God. As they're sitting on their roof, a boat comes by with two rescuers, who shout to the family: "Get in, we'll take you to safety!"

Replied the husband/father: "God will save us, God will provide."

The rescuers shrugged, and motored off to help others.

The waters kept rising, driving the family further up the roof. Another rescue boat happened by, rescuers shouting "Get in, we'll save you!"

Replied the husband/father: "God will save us, God will provide."

Again, the rescuers shrugged and went off to find others to help.

Finally, the rising waters drove the family to the very top of the roof, family members clinging to the chimney.

Along came a Coast Guard helicopter to rescue them, shouting at them via loudspeaker to get in the rescue basket.

Once more, the husband/father waved them off, mouthing the words "God will save us, God will provide."

Sadly, the waters rose again, claiming the family who all perished in the flood.
--------
Standing at the Pearly Gates, the father/husband was shaking his head. St. Peter asked him what was the matter. The father said "I can't believe it. I put my faith in God, totally and unconditionally, and still we died in the flood. I thought God would have saved us."

In an exasperated tone, St. Peter said, "What did you want? We sent you two boats and a helicopter!"


----------



## The_Blob

goose said:


> "What did you want? We sent you two boats and a helicopter!"


& THAT, I think, is where the 'disconnect' for many otherwise _*wise*_ people lies :scratch


----------



## Bigdog57

Yep, I've always believed the Good Lord helps those who at least try to help themselves. The lazy and wilfully ignorant must trust to pure dumb luck! And Lady Luck can sometimes have a very cruel sense of humor.......


----------



## NavyKen

SIMPLE

Rule #1 Do not discuss your preps
Rule #2 Do not discuss your preps
Rule #3 If you think you found a like minded individual wait and be sure and DO NOT DISCUSS YOUR PREPS
Rule #4 If you now know you found a like minded individual do not discuss YOUR preps

get the general idea?

:sssh:


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## gypsysue

Someone on one of these threads made a sensible statement (Can't find it or I'd link it).

It had to do with God providing; something about the sparrows not worrying about food, and the person pointed out that God doesn't dump the food in their nest, the sparrows have to go out and get it. 

I kinda liked that!


----------



## Clarice

God helps those who help themselves.


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## PS360

NavyKen said:


> SIMPLE
> 
> Rule #1 Do not discuss your preps
> Rule #2 Do not discuss your preps
> Rule #3 If you think you found a like minded individual wait and be sure and DO NOT DISCUSS YOUR PREPS
> Rule #4 If you now know you found a like minded individual do not discuss YOUR preps
> 
> get the general idea?
> 
> :sssh:


That's my philosophy.


----------



## bifocal

I don't know exactly what was legal during WWII, but I still have some of my parents' ration cards for gas and sugar. My understanding was that people traded some things they didn't need; for instance, I use very little sugar and might trade my monthly allotment for something more useful. 

If TSHTF, there's no telling what kind of laws the Washington evils will make.


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## azurevirus

I was wondering about this stockpiling myself..but I get my food at 3 different stores so I dont get alot at one store..every since Reno told Walmarts to report anything suspicious,,I dont know what she exactly meant by that..I mean what can the walmart employees see that would be suspicious out of the norm..except ppl buying either certain kinds of food or buying alot of it?...I could see someone buying an alot of ammo being suspicious ..or guns ...but besides that what are the employees are to be on the lookout for..that would be worth reporting to authorities?


----------



## sinbad

I am not a great prepper myself and only have about a month supply, however I know exactly what it means when someone knows you are prepared with even a flashlight in your bag. 

GASP !!! 
Oooooh , is that a flashlight you are carrying .... in broad daylight ??? 

I know !!

Once we were in a family gathering one evening and a small kid was crying non-stop. I thought of taking out the tiny flashlight I keep in my core kit to get his attention. Then I thought of the comments I may receive from everyone including his father. Idecided to leave it to the father to solve his child problem, and my baby .. I mean the flashlight, should remain snoozing in my pocket. LOL 

Now, IF , and I mean IF, I was suggesting anyone to be prepared , I suggest something that includes ME in the advice. I would say : WE need to prepare. WE ought to have some food at home. I AM "THINKING" about our careless lifestyle that may lead US to trouble. WE should do something. 

You can generally have a sense of people types and most probable course of thinking. Some are really respectable and the maximum they can do is to respectably and quietly not agree with you. Even with these it is pointless to discuss any further because they do not subscribe to the idea anyway. So, there is nothing to discuss further.


----------



## The_Blob

After I home hospiced a friend's g-pa (who had grown up during The Great Depression) his kids wanted to just throw away all of his 'junk' (preps) & I said that I could find a needy person that could use them (ME!) and they let me haul them away. I filled my 18' ex U-Haul (with Granny Box) with Warehouse Club bulk packages of toilet paper, kleenex, laundry detergent, bar soap, canned goods (most current), boxes of mason jars, pots & racks for canning, basically all the things *everyone* used to have at home pre WW2 PLUS; a literal treasure trove that would've went to the dump! :nuts:

I never used to agree with the term *disposable society* but the more I am exposed to mainstream culture the more I want to


----------



## UncleJoe

The_Blob said:


> I filled my 18' ex U-Haul (with Granny Box) with Warehouse Club bulk packages of toilet paper, kleenex, laundry detergent, bar soap, canned goods (most current), boxes of mason jars, pots & racks for canning, basically all the things *everyone* used to have at home pre WW2 PLUS; a literal treasure trove that would've went to the dump!:


I know where I'm headed after TSHTF!!!  :sssh:


----------



## vn6869

The_Blob,
That Toilet Paper could be worth more than it's weight in gold someday.

Do you recall years ago the run on TP because of a false rumor someone started?

Problem is it is sooo bulky, but soo nice to have. . .


----------



## Lonewufcry

keeping a ample supply for my family of 5 on a money diet isn't easy but we have procured around 3 months not countiong what we make ourselves.


----------



## Emerald

vn6869 said:


> The_Blob,
> That Toilet Paper could be worth more than it's weight in gold someday.
> 
> Do you recall years ago the run on TP because of a false rumor someone started?
> 
> Problem is it is sooo bulky, but soo nice to have. . .


And just think, us folks up here in the cold north could use packages of TP along the walls as a nice insulating factor till they are used!
I do think that chapsticks and TP would be the cushy things I would miss the most post SHTF. I can always make syrup or raid the honey bees if I have a need for sweet but I haven't found a good recipe for chapstick that I really like yet--but maybe with the bees wax I can fix that!


----------



## JayJay

Hey, I just thought of something I haven't seen on the list of preps..

They are to be discontinued in 2012 if you believe what you read on the net..

Incandescent bulbs..I have 40 (4/$1 dollar general) and plan to buy 40 more.


----------



## dakada

hi, i am new to prepping. thanks for all the great info.

my question is what is a case-lot sale? do you have to ask the manager of the store? i am not familiar with this term.


----------



## The_Blob

JayJay said:


> Hey, I just thought of something I haven't seen on the list of preps..
> 
> They are to be discontinued in 2012 if you believe what you read on the net..
> 
> Incandescent bulbs..I have 40 (4/$1 dollar general) and plan to buy 40 more.


I have a feeling that they will still be available for certain uses (like hobby-level incubators), but they will be expensive and maybe even require a permit :nuts:

I like flourescents and LEDs for bulb life & the 'whiteness' of their light & low power consumption, but they are FAR from a 'green' product like TPTB would have you believe... heck, if I could afford it I would have prisms & optic cable run through my whole house to take advanatge of natural light &/or lights in one room to light another at the same time. Can you imagine lighting and entire house with about 4W of electricity? :hmmm: :lolsmash:


----------



## Emerald

The_Blob said:


> I have a feeling that they will still be available for certain uses (like hobby-level incubators), but they will be expensive and maybe even require a permit :nuts:
> 
> I like florescent and LEDs for bulb life & the 'whiteness' of their light & low power consumption, but they are FAR from a 'green' product like TPTB would have you believe... heck, if I could afford it I would have prisms & optic cable run through my whole house to take advantage of natural light &/or lights in one room to light another at the same time. Can you imagine lighting and entire house with about 4W of electricity? :hmmm: :lolsmash:


Don't let the electric company hear about that :sssh:-they will probably end up adding a new charge to your bill--Low usage charge or some bullcrap like that! Probably make it go up past your normal charge!
Like my gas company charging me a "customer charge" of $10.50 a month--Now I gotta pay to be a customer?


----------



## CulexPipiens

I would think LEDs would be a better option for LTS purposes. If/when you do need to use them, they last decades and draw less power so a few could be enough for a lifetime and a modest solar panel/battery should be enough to power them for quite a while.


----------



## combatengineer

As far as I know, it is not illegal to stockpile food. In fact, you'd be wise to do so, but keep your activities to yourself. No one, and I mean no one, needs to know what you are doing. It would be a great idea to stockpile other commodities such as; ammo, tools, batteries, bottled fuel, etc.
That's my opinion. You never know when a disaster is going to strike.


----------



## combatengineer

It is not illelgal to stockpile food. It's smart. You may want to consider other commodities as well; ammo, fuels, candles, etc. You never know. I would rather have them and not need them, than to need them and not have them.


----------



## JayJay

Someone on one of these threads made a sensible statement (Can't find it or I'd link it).

It had to do with God providing; something about the sparrows not worrying about food, and the person pointed out that God doesn't dump the food in their nest, the sparrows have to go out and get it. 

I kinda liked that! 


GypsySue...at my church, we call that putting feet on those prayers, that sometimes more than wings are needed.:2thumb:


----------



## gypsysue

dakada said:


> hi, i am new to prepping. thanks for all the great info.
> 
> my question is what is a case-lot sale? do you have to ask the manager of the store? i am not familiar with this term.


Here in the west we have a store called Smith's, which is owned by Kroger. Two or three times a year they have "caselot" sales. They actually get everything in in cases and set it out in a big cleared area near the front of the store, and you buy whole cases of canned veggies, tomatoes, fruit, spaghetti sauce, chicken and ham, soups, boxes of macaroni & cheese, Jiff muffin mixes, etc., for cheap prices. On the most recent one they had cases of canned ham (cans like tuna) for $12 (12 cans in the case), Hunts Spaghetti sauce, $9/case (12 cans), and sugar, $18.80 (10 4-lb bags, shrink wrapped together). In the past I've gotten cases of 48 boxes of macaroni & cheese for $12, mandarin oranges for what worked out to .39/can. Didn't need any of that this time. The one that ended yesterday, I bought 3 cases of the sugar (so I know have an additional 120 lbs of sugar) and a case of spaghetti sauce.

Another chain here has caselot sales a few times a year, also, but they're a regional chain in Montana and Idaho, and possibly eastern Washington. They carry Western Family brand and a lot of them used to be IGA-related.

It's a great way to stock up.


----------



## dakada

thank you gypsysue. i will go online and see if any of our local stores offer this. that would be an easy way to have the hubby be supportive of buying "extra food"! baby steps here in south carolina!!


----------



## The_Blob

JayJay said:


> Someone on one of these threads made a sensible statement (Can't find it or I'd link it).
> 
> It had to do with God providing; something about the sparrows not worrying about food, and the person pointed out that God doesn't dump the food in their nest, the sparrows have to go out and get it.
> 
> I kinda liked that!
> 
> GypsySue...at my church, we call that putting feet on those prayers, that sometimes more than wings are needed.:2thumb:


http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f56/scriptures-support-idea-preparedness-5104/#post51313

or


----------



## IrritatedWithUS

oldsoldier said:


> Excellent post I as well don't subscribe to all the 2012 hype. IMHO more likely it would/will be more along the lines of an econamic colapse or a major terrorist type situation.


One of my professors recently was discussing this '2012 hype' and said their sister was a high-up microbiologist and said that "the end of the U.S. will most definitely be a bacterium or virus" and when my professor asked "will it be released in the air or in weapons or mutated?" and she replied with "released in the air and in weapons". My professor asked "by whom?" and the sister said "I can't tell you that"

VERY, VERY CREEPY INDEED.


----------



## Bushwhacker733

Bigdog57 said:


> Nope, best to take your place in line, get your case of Red Cross water and case of MRE's and return home. And as the 'emergency' goes on, lose some weight, don't shave so close, adapt the same haggard look as every other sheeple, and wear clothes a size or two too big......
> 
> "Baaaaaahhhh, woe is me! I'm a sheep. Baaaa....."
> 
> Blend with the herd - less chance of getting 'fleeced'. I'd even wear an obama pin if it makes the Jackboots look the other way.


Hahaha, if I had been drinking milk it would have sprayed out my nose onto my keyboard! Losing weight will be good for me.


----------



## HighTech

OK it is not illegal, if so over 10 million Mormons would be breaking the law. The Church has extended the recommended food storage from 2-3 years to 5 years. Now I listen to them on that many clean cut Mormons go to work for the cia and the fbi and I believe that they get good Intel so it filters down. But how safe it your food storage in time of war or some other disaster? your family could be over ran and your food taken. You have to have a survival shelter underground. I have designed one that has a good size fish pond and garden and you cant get in it real easy for it is hidden. Sun light / air is piped in for plants, fish and yourself. I can't believe people think they just need to have buried a container (small box) and not have renewable food capabilities.


----------



## Ponce

Call it what you will......survivalist or hording......"A rose by any other name?",

"Get ready today for the way that you want to live tomorrow"... Ponce


----------



## weedygarden

*tell no one*

I think that when it comes to preparedness, either you get it, or you don't. When Y2k was coming, my daughter mocked me and made so much fun of my then meager attempts at being prepared. She will still laugh about my Y2k preps if it comes up.

Now she is gone, living on her own, and she has absolutely no idea at my preps. I will not tell her. I won't tell her because she will talk about it to others. When it gets bad, she will be concerned for everyone who isn't prepared and there will be a crowd at the door. I don't put her in the position to know and then she can't tell. She has no idea about what I have in the locked room in the basement.

I tell no one, except a friend who has significantly more preps than I do and lives in another state.

I don't talk about preparing, I don't suggest it, I don't express concern about it to anyone else. My friend, who is prepared enough for literally a village, has tried to convince others to prepare, and they all say, "Why, we can just come to your house." Right.

If anyone knows you have anything, they will talk to others and you will have nothing. Hide your stuff, lock it up, hide the key in a very difficult place to find it. Paper goods are good in the garage attic. They don't way much and who would think you'd keep it there.

When I get preps, I close the garage door and move my stuff around. I have one very nosy neighbor. She is out and about in the mornings and I seldom see her in the evenings.

I also don't buy a cart full of rice or beans. I try to fly under the radar. I would rather buy a little of this and a little of that several times than to raise curiosity about why I am buying 50# of sugar. I often set a goal for 3 or 4 items and buy some of them every time I shop until I have met my goal.


----------



## ashley8072

I sure hope not. We are actually on Commodities (free food given to us once a month based on household size and income for being Native American). Anyone that knows what Commodities are KNOWS. It's a lot of dang food. After having the baby, I had to give up my 2000 cavalier and go to a 2006 T&C van. It's a lot of food. One month of picking this up and it'll last us 2. Last year we made too much money and couldn't get it for awhile until hubby started losing work. I never thought that we would ever run out of food. It's been years since I've actually bought a bag of flour or vegetable oil. After I got so much of it, I started only getting what we would eat. We ran out after just a month and a half. Even buying tomato sauce was getting ridiculous. We were recently able to get back on, and I WILL NOT leave ANYTHING behind. That is what opened my eyes that I did not have enough stored away, and I now have about 40 flats of canned food and the deep freeze is packed full again. 

You can be sure that if SHTF and red cross is handing out water and boxes of food, I'll be there. :wave: Like Alex Jones says: Do I have enough food for my family? How much food is enough? No and Take what I can get! We don't know how long whatever will happen will last. If I gotta buy waterproof trunks and sink them to the bottom of the ponds and lakes with hidden food, I will. lol!


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## JayJay

What I think is so great about being prepared for disasters that we can actually prepare for...is_ knowing _you're prepared, the security feeling, but also when you're out and about, the_ urgent need _is no longer there, but if you see jars of instant coffee for $.50, you can pick up a few and add to your inventory. Make sense???

And can start working on those procrastinating issues, like firewood.!!!!


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## Jimmy24

Call it what you want. I'm prepped as well as I can and have foodstuffs for 18months. I have lots of other supplies. 

If it's illegal so be it.

Just the way it is.

Jimmy


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## Lolajack

I can't begin to address why anyone would think stockpiling food is illegal. Haven't seen any laws on the books and we are free to spend our money as we wish(after taxes, that is.) Many people belong to wholesale clubs like BJ's, Costco, Sam's or join food cooperatives. Why is your neighbor even privvy to what you buy?


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## HoppeEL4

> I think the "illegal" part might be if they declare martial law. I've heard that they can decree that no one have more than a 3-day supply on hand. That'd be tough in remote areas!


This is 100% true in that case, and if you have stockpiled and this happens, and you have not hidden yours well, they can take it from you. Best to do is to keep this completely secret and even "play down" stockpiling to nosey onlookers. Someone I know stated they unloaded their stock inside their garage ( if you have one you can drive into) or at night, queitly though. This is just to keep your privacy.


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## Lolajack

There is no law that I've heard of that "they" can take what you've stockpiled. The government doesn't have the resources to check every house in every neighborhood in every town. I'd be more afraid of the average unprepared person. Really, this needs to be kept in the proper perspective.


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## Davo45

FEMA regularly runs advertising advising people to stockpiles food, water and other supplies, so I don't see how it could be "illegal" to do something recommended by FEMA.


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## OrangeJuice

Davo45 said:


> FEMA regularly runs advertising advising people to stockpiles food, water and other supplies, so I don't see how it could be "illegal" to do something recommended by FEMA.


Ummm... it's the government... rules, laws, directives, mandates...
All made to be broken / changed / modified at will by a faceless entity.

A healthy mistrust of ones government is reason one to becoming prepared in my opinion.


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## *Andi

OrangeJuice said:


> Ummm... it's the government... rules, laws, directives, mandates...
> All made to be broken / changed / modified at will by a faceless entity.
> 
> A healthy mistrust of ones government is reason one to becoming prepared in my opinion.


Post of the day ... take a look at history if you have questions ...


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## HoppeEL4

> FEMA regularly runs advertising advising people to stockpiles food, water and other supplies


I have not seen this yet.



> MARTIAL LAW; that is, the "suspension" of the Constitution. Curfews, rationing of basic goods, enforced relocations, confiscation of firearms and supplies, and summary arrest/execution by soldiers, paramilitary police


I have read many articles and spoke with several former military, and it all points to the government, once the Constitution is suspended, can do as they see fit in the guise of the good of all. Not saying they would have enough troops or police going house to house all over this nation, but it is possible, if it is well known you have firearms, in the least (remember operations where they have gone after citizens who were living in a survivalist way already), and then find a stockpile of supplies, I feel confident they would have no problem coming in and confiscating it.


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## Nadja

Food , what food. I am also very very affraid of guns officer


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## OrangeJuice

Nadja said:


> Food , what food. I am also very very affraid of guns officer


two words...

"burial tube" :dunno:


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## Davo45

HoppeEL4 said:


> I have not seen this yet.
> 
> Here's one USDA page linked to FEMA about keeping stockpiled food safe during emergencies. They don't advertise on TV, they run PSA's on radio.
> 
> Keeping Food Safe During An Emergency
> 
> I have read many articles and spoke with several former military, and it all points to the government, once the Constitution is suspended, can do as they see fit in the guise of the good of all. Not saying they would have enough troops or police going house to house all over this nation, but it is possible, if it is well known you have firearms, in the least (*remember operations where they have gone after citizens who were living in a survivalist way already*), and then find a stockpile of supplies, I feel confident they would have no problem coming in and confiscating it.


FEMA and the Alabama Army National Guard are giving MRE's to tornado victims. They have massive stockpiles of food, firearms weren't mentioned in the original question: "Is it Illegal to stockpile food?"

The people who stayed in New Orleans during Katrina could hardly be called people who were "living in a survivalist way", but rather thugs who shot at rescue helicopters who were trying to drop food and water to them. The "survivalist" all left well in advance of it hitting....they had a plan (evacuate) had prepared for it and carried it out.

There were many people in the coastal region of Mississippi who stood guard outside their home with guns holding signs reading "WARNING LOOTERS WILL BE SHOT" Nobody from any federal, state or local police agency or military personnel confiscated their weapons, much less searched their homes for stockpiled food. There hasn't been anything like that happening here in Alabama either, partly because of the fact that there are so many houses that are simply not there anymore, but mainly is because nobody here is shooting at rescue workers. There was a news report about a looter being shot by a homeowner though.


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## Davo45

*Emergency Preparedness Month PSA from 2010*

Ready Campaign - National Preparedness Month 2010 Overview

While the information they give is sketchy at best, they have been running Ready.gov commercials on radio as well as T.V. markets. I don't agree with all of what they advise people, but to give credit where it's due they are at least trying to make people aware of the need to plan and prepare for emergencies. In all of the information I've seen on their website they recommend a MINIMUM of 3 days worth of food, water as well as other essential supplies. I can't help but notice that there is no mention I saw of firearms or security.


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## twiggie

I don't know how many of you watch TV regularly but I've found a show on TLC called "Extreme Couponing." They cover a family for a segment and go shopping with them. Some of these people are hoarding all kinds of products from TP and deodorant to canned food and sports drinks. Some of them have turned it into a full time job, scanning papers for sales and coupons and take full advantage of double and triple coupon deals at the grocery. Last time I watched it a family got $800 something in food and goods for no more than $90.


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## 101airborne

vn6869 said:


> The_Blob,
> That Toilet Paper could be worth more than it's weight in gold someday.
> 
> Do you recall years ago the run on TP because of a false rumor someone started?
> 
> Problem is it is sooo bulky, but soo nice to have. . .


If that's true we ( wife and I) will be rich. We have been to 4 out of business auctions in the last few months. Without counting or pulling up our inventory I think we have 26 cases (250 rolls per case) of Toilet paper, along with 20 cases (125 rolls per case) of paper towels. Along with about (package not case count) 1500 packages of sanitary pads, 800 boxes of tampons, not to mention paper plates, assorted size diapers, as well as blankets, bed sheets, towels, wash cloths etc. When /we go to garage sales I grab up every good blanket, towel etc. they have at a good price, along with material, thread, yarn, needles and the like. I figure that even if we don't need em someone might,


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## actionjksn

The_Blob said:


> is it amazing to anybody else that so many people that don't have 'the neccessities' STILL manage to keep their 'luxuries' cell phones, cable TV, spinning rim hoopties etc etc?... true the WORLD over (just read somewhere that in India more people have cell phones than have TOILETS in their home... this is after the Indian govt. gave 5200 rupees to each PERSON, not family -- PERSON! that means a family of 5 got 26000 rupees) :nuts:
> 
> :gaah: :gaah: :gaah:


That's only about 120 per person or 600 per family at best, I doubt it would have payed for indoor plumbing. But people really are stupid everywhere in the world. At any rate all the stupid people here will not survive trying to take my food. But they won't know I have it anyway.


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## Salekdarling

twiggie said:


> I don't know how many of you watch TV regularly but I've found a show on TLC called "Extreme Couponing." They cover a family for a segment and go shopping with them. Some of these people are hoarding all kinds of products from TP and deodorant to canned food and sports drinks. Some of them have turned it into a full time job, scanning papers for sales and coupons and take full advantage of double and triple coupon deals at the grocery. Last time I watched it a family got $800 something in food and goods for no more than $90.


Right now, I really wish I could pull that off...if only for a couple of months. :sssh:


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## greaseman

what some people call hoarding, others call prepping. There are government web sites that tell you to stock up several weeks worth of food for disasters that may come. there are other government web sites that say that anyone who saves up extra food, is a hoarder, and might be a domestic threat. Our government has gone mad with power. You might as well do what you want to, as soon enough, all will be labeled a domestic threat for one reason or another.


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## HoppeEL4

greaseman, it is crazy. I can't believe they are considering someone who preps (labeled a hoarder in their eyes) is a potential terrorist?....:nuts: They are the crazy ones. Before our industrial revolution, and supermarkets, almost everyone who lived on a family farm set aside food and animal feed for an entire year, this was common practise and of course, necessary. Now why is it thought of as being nuts and why should we constantly be scraping by daily?

My husband was in the Air Force and traveled a lot through Europe, and of course was stationed there. He said people there did not store hardly anything in their homes as far as food, they simply shopped daily. Can you imagine? What would happen to them all if SHTF over there?

Well I am crazy then and am proud of it. I will be the sane one when SHTF and they all are starving, and my family will not be.


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## Bigdog57

We must keep in mind, nearly ALL our 'selected leaders' grew up in the Big City, where food 'comes from' the store. They have no concept of farm or rural life, or it's necessities. So our long-necessary saving and prepping for bad times is anathema to them. They have no concept of anything that can't be done by..... The Government. Well, The Government had a major fail in the aftermath of Katrina, and in other major disasters. They gave NO aid to the midwest storm victims. They simply set themselves up to control OUR lives, and tell us how to live. We mustn't stockpile supplies, as it 'keeps others from having'..... right. Most sheeple do NOT stock emergency supplies - doom on them. Trying to take MY supplies WILL be an act of war, and my response will be in kind.
Saving to keep one's family safe and alive is NOT in any way illegal - despite what a rogue government may say. Perhaps it is the Government that is illegal.....?


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## Jimmy24

Bigdog57 said:


> We must keep in mind, nearly ALL our 'selected leaders' grew up in the Big City, where food 'comes from' the store. They have no concept of farm or rural life, or it's necessities. So our long-necessary saving and prepping for bad times is anathema to them. They have no concept of anything that can't be done by..... The Government. Well, The Government had a major fail in the aftermath of Katrina, and in other major disasters. They gave NO aid to the midwest storm victims. They simply set themselves up to control OUR lives, and tell us how to live. We mustn't stockpile supplies, as it 'keeps others from having'..... right. Most sheeple do NOT stock emergency supplies - doom on them. Trying to take MY supplies WILL be an act of war, and my response will be in kind.
> Saving to keep one's family safe and alive is NOT in any way illegal - despite what a rogue government may say. Perhaps it is the Government that is illegal.....?


Well said.

Jimmy


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## greaseman

as far as the government thinks, anyone who frequents blogs such as this site, are already under suspicion. The authorities are scared of people who can think for themselves, and might question what they tell them. They are scared that the masses might stop and come to the conclusion that the masses are 98% of the population, and they are merly 2%, and take appropriate action.


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## greaseman

There are still many people who don't even know anything about a prep movement or anything, but prep as a normal course of daily living. My elderly inlaws are preppers, and don't even know what prep means. They went through the depression as children. They were all farmers, and don't know any other way. 
There is coming a time, when the shock of things not being the way they were the day before, will astound the masses. They will realize how bad they have been missled all along. This will not be a good time in our nations history, but none the less, necessary, to clean the slate, and move on to a new beginning. I have told my grown children repeatedly, that very soon, nothing will ever be the same way it has been, for a very long time. I absolutely believe this to be true. we are almost at this point in history. Good luck all.


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## HoppeEL4

greaseman, I agree on this point. There has to be this time where things that have mucked up our system and way of life are essentially cleared away. It will be a time when the "chaff will be seperated from the wheat". 

Our society has become so...well disgusting, criminally minded, selfish and all around rotten. The news always shows evidence of this daily.


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## goshengirl

greaseman said:


> There is coming a time, when the shock of things not being the way they were the day before, will astound the masses. They will realize how bad they have been missled all along. This will not be a good time in our nations history, but none the less, necessary, to clean the slate, and move on to a new beginning. I have told my grown children repeatedly, that very soon, nothing will ever be the same way it has been, for a very long time. I absolutely believe this to be true. we are almost at this point in history. Good luck all.


Amen.

And oddly, I look forward to that. Don't get me wrong, I'm concerned with how hard things will be, and I recognize that there's going to be so much that I'm not prepared for, physically or emotionally. But I'm raising sons in a world that wants their lives to be so easy, and I feel like I'm always fighting that world as I try raising them. I can't help but think, when the SHTF and they have to work hard, it will make them better people. Am I the only one that thinks that way?


----------



## greaseman

goshengirl said:


> Amen.
> 
> And oddly, I look forward to that. Don't get me wrong, I'm concerned with how hard things will be, and I recognize that there's going to be so much that I'm not prepared for, physically or emotionally. But I'm raising sons in a world that wants their lives to be so easy, and I feel like I'm always fighting that world as I try raising them. I can't help but think, when the SHTF and they have to work hard, it will make them better people. Am I the only one that thinks that way?


 I have heard many people express that same sentiment. they just wish whatever is going to happen, will just go ahead and happen. I must confess that I have had the same feelings, but I have to remind myself that the extra time is a gift. Once the true nature of what is to come, has arrived, we will all wish we had more time. when the real collapse happens, it will start a chain of events that must play out, non stop, till events re-set the economy.
When considering what is to come, there really isn't any good scenerios. When the masses realize how badly they've been lied to, they WILL want some payback. That's a normal reaction. That human nature idea alone spells trouble ahead. Add to that the almost certain disruption in the entitlements programs , and you have millions of people waking up to a new world of nothing being the same as it was the day before. You get the picture. Soon, millions of other sheeple will get the picture. good luck. remember, luck favors the prepared.:2thumb:


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## Norse

neil-v1 said:


> I was speaking to a neighbor of my parents about getting ready in case the S.H.T.F. This guy tried to tell me that stock-piling food is illegal. Is he full of dung or is he correct? I looked online and some sites say yes and some say no way. I figured I would ask you all here.
> 
> Even if it is illegal, I will still do it but I just want to know the facts. Thanks.


Some of the hype is by far right wing scare mongers, and some of it is in reference to obscure laws that can be interpreted in different ways.

It turns out that several instances where supposedly, federal agents raided LDS food processing companies,it turns out it never happened.

*THIS STORY HAS BEEN PULLED.

We have pulled this story about the Mormon cannery being visited by federal agents because the source of the information at the cannery is now denying that he ever told us that event occurred.
Report: Federal Agents Demand Customer Lists From Mormon Food Storage Facility
*

*We are in an especially tense time for civil liberties as the NDAA 'indefinite detention' bill makes its way through Congress, so when a story went viral over the weekend of Feds raiding a Latter Day Saints food storage facility in Tennessee and demanding customer lists, alarm bells went off and some folks got riled up.Did Federal Agents Raid a Mormon Food Storage Facility?

But now it looks like this raid on LDS food storage never occurred.
*

There are however some references to the Patriot act and FEMA having the power to enact control over ALL COMMERCE during the event of a national emergency.

In essence, if martial law or a state of national emergency is announced, it is supposedly illegal to run to the store and buy every can of baked beans they have!


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## BillM

*Stockpileing food*

Stockpileing food is not illegal .


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## pegleg

Check this out.

Rand Paul warns preppers that the government considers you terrorists.


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## Norse

BillM said:


> Stockpileing food is not illegal .


It is not right now, BUT.......

* Martial law is declared will it be 'illegal' to stockpile food. In fact, Executive Order 10998 states that All food resources, farms and farm equipment will be seized by the federal government. It also states that you will not be allowed to hoard food since it will be 'regulated'. Yep, couldn't believe it myself.*

*

Executive Order 10998
ASSIGNING EMERGENCY PREPAREDNESS FUNCTIONS TO THE SECRETARY OF AGRICULTURE

By virtue of the authority vested in me as President of the United States, including authority vested in me by Reorganization Plan No. 1 of 1958 (72 Stat. 1799), it is hereby ordered as follows:

SECTION 1. Scope. The Secretary of Agriculture (hereinafter referred to as the Secretary) shall prepare national emergency plans and develop preparedness programs covering: Food resources, farm equipment, fertilizer, and food resource facilities, as defined below; rural fire control; defense against biological warfare, chemical warfare, and radiological fallout pertaining to agricultural activities; and rural defense information and education. These plans and programs shall be designed to develop a state of readiness in these areas with respect to all conditions of national emergency, including attack upon the United States.

SEC. 2. Definitions. As used in this order:

(a) "Food resources" means all commodities and products, simple, mixed or compound, or complements to such commodities or products, that are capable of being eaten or drunk, by either human beings or animals' irrespective of other uses to which such commodities or products may be. put, at all stages of processing from the raw commodity to the products thereof in vendible form for human or animal consumption. For the purposes of this order the term "food resources" shall also include all starches, sugars, vegetable and animal fats and oils, cotton, tobacco, wool, mohair, hemp, flax fiber, and naval stores, but shall not include any such material after it loses its identity as an agricultural commodity or agricultural product.

(b) "Farm equipment" means machinery, equipment and repair parts manufactured primarily for use on farms in connection with the production or preparation for market or use of "food resources."

(c) "Fertilizer" means any product or combination of products for plant nutrition in form for distribution to the users thereof.

(d) "Food resource facilities" means plants, machinery, vehicles (including on farm) and other facilities for the production, processing, distribution and storage (including cold storage) of food resources, and for domestic distribution of farm equipment and fertilizer.

SEC. 3. Food Function. With respect to food resources, food resource facilities, farm equipment, and fertilizer the Secretary shall:

(a) Resources. Periodically assess assigned resources available from all sources in order to estimate availability under an emergency situation, analyze resource estimates in relation to estimated requirements in order to identify problem areas, and develop appropriate recommendations and programs including those necessary for the maintenance of an adequate mobilization base. Provide data and assistance before and after attack for national resource evaluation purposes of the Office of Emergency Planning.

(b) Requirements. Periodically assemble, develop as appropriate, and evaluate requirements for assigned resources and service, taking into account the estimated needs for military, civilian, and foreign purposes. Such evaluation shall take into consideration the geographical distribution of requirements under emergency conditions.

(c) Priorities and allocations. Develop priorities, allocations and distribution control systems and related plans to insure that available food resources are properly apportioned among and distributed to civilian, military and foreign claimants in an emergency and develop priorities, allocations and distribution control systems and related plans for the domestic distribution of farm equipment and fertilizer.

(d) Production and processing. Develop control systems and related plans including control of use of facilities designed to provide adequate and continuing production, processing and storage of essential food resources in an emergency.

(e) Salvage and rehabilitation. Develop plans for salvage of food resources after determination by proper authorities having the responsibility for this function, of their safety for human or animal consumption anti develop plans for the rehabilitation of food resource facilities after attack.

(f) Economic stabilization. Cooperate with the Office of Emergency Planning in the development of stabilization policies as they might affect agricultural production, processing, distribution, and storage, and in tile development of policies for consumer rationing of food resources.

(g) Financial aid. Develop plans and procedures for financial and credit assistance for farmers who might need such assistance under various mobilization conditions, and provide assistance to food industries in obtaining necessry financing and credit in an emergency.*

Does this mean they can come into private property and seize food?
What do you think FARMS are? Theoretically, I would not be surprised if "ALL COMMODITIES" meant privately held resources as well, since farms are private property, this Executive Order simply bypasses the constitution, and makes it legal to seize private property.


----------



## greaseman

Folks, with this NDAA that has passed, and the myriad of other laws that are already on the books, "they" can do anything they want, at any time, to anyone. Get it out of your head that things are as they have been. We now live in a country that compared to many other"repressive" type governments, is very far down on the list. We in no way live in a free country. You can get that idea out of your head. We will soon get to experience just how far things have gone.
I have already read accounts of foreign travellers that travel here from so called repressive countries, and they say the USA is much worse than their country when it comes to personal freedoms.
As far as this food storage issue goes, just add it to the list of things that make you a domestic terrorist threat. At some point, many Americans are going to say enough, and that's when the sparks will fly. We are close. Good luck.


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## goshengirl

greaseman, you are spot-on.

And it's good to see you around again.  :wave:


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## 41south

What ain't illegal these days?


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## HoppeEL4

> What ain't illegal these days?


That says it all.


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## musketjim

They will take whatever they find that they want. It's best to be invisible and mobile.

The whole world sucks,America sucks a lot less and Alaska don't suck at all.


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## froggymountain

USA - Can you say, "EXECUTIVE ORDER"?

A flurry of Executive Orders (EO) are written or renewed by US Presidents. Since World War II, a number of Executive Orders stand, or are replaced by newer, modified ones, that cover everything from "property management" (Real Estate use) to "Continuity of Operation" of critical businesses and factories in case of "Emergencies" - all managed with oversight from the US Military.

horseman09 is right, rationing is a prime example and newer EO's stand today which would be pushed into action in a moment's notice - some of which would make stockpiles a "national security" issue. This includes making gold and silver illegal again if an "emergency" were declared.

To research all the EO's today is a monumental task - suffice it to say that the US Government is poised to protect "national security" by whatever means necessary (and they are the ones who define what "national security" is.)

Prepared people are at risk.


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## SageAdvicefarmgirl

froggymountain said:


> USA - Can you say, "EXECUTIVE ORDER"?
> 
> A flurry of Executive Orders (EO) are written or renewed by US Presidents. Since World War II, a number of Executive Orders stand, or are replaced by newer, modified ones, that cover everything from "property management" (Real Estate use) to "Continuity of Operation" of critical businesses and factories in case of "Emergencies" - all managed with oversight from the US Military.
> 
> horseman09 is right, rationing is a prime example and newer EO's stand today which would be pushed into action in a moment's notice - some of which would make stockpiles a "national security" issue. This includes making gold and silver illegal again if an "emergency" were declared.
> 
> To research all the EO's today is a monumental task - suffice it to say that the US Government is poised to protect "national security" by whatever means necessary (and they are the ones who define what "national security" is.)
> 
> Prepared people are at risk.


Interesting article about Ron Paul, with a "supposed" speech Ron Paul might make if he were elected:

Executive Order 13,601: An executive Order Revoking all Previous Executive Orders.

I, Ron Paul, do hereby declare null and void all previous Presidential executive orders.

Signed: Ron Paul, January 20, 2013, The Constitution of the United States made no provision for executive orders. Congress never votes to create one, yet executive orders have the force of law. The Constitution says that all laws must be passed by a majority in both houses of Congress and then be signed by the President. Therefore, during my time as President, the government of the United States will be run exclusively by laws that were passed in accordance with the Constitution. I do not have the authority to repeal laws on my own. I do have the authority to repeal executive orders. I have just repealed 13,600 of them.

Read more: Ron Paul's Inaugural Address, Written by His First (and Only) Speechwriter Ron Paul's Inaugural Address, Written by His First (and Only) Speechwriter


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## BillM

*My understanding is*

My understanding is this, in a declared emergency, you are forbiden to profiteer.

Since there is no declared emergency at this time, you are free to accumulate all the provisions you want.

If a state of emergency is declared and "martial law" is enacted, you will not be allowed to buy out the local Sam's club supply of rice and beans to hoard it and resale it at a fantastic markup.

If you have a farm and a Dairy, the FEMA officer will likely buy and pay you for your milk. They are not able to take your milk , grain, or turnip crop without compensation, but they can force you to sell it to them.

I would be more conserned with them forceing me to relocate to a FEMA camp, (for my own safety).

I want to make that decision based on my judgment not their's.


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## AlabamaGal

BillM said:


> My understanding is this, in a declared emergency, you are forbiden to profiteer.


Some states have price gouging laws and some don't. We recently had a taste of that here. In the wake of the tornado outbreak in the spring, there were some people (not many) who tried to charge outrageous sums for basic necessities. The government did indeed enforce the law.

IIFC, "price gouging" by law in Alabama was a price 25% higher than the average price in an area over the past month, unless the vendor can show that their costs have gone up that much.

"Hoarding" is a different matter. Buying in bulk when it is plentiful is NOT hoarding or everyone with a Costco membership would be breaking the law. Buying extra stuff when it's restricted IS. In an emergency they aren't coming after your buckets of wheat, they are going after the silos and farms. In that kind of widespread emergency, the resources will simply not be there to go house to house although they might call for voluntary turn-ins.

I sure as hell wouldn't let on to my neighbors that I had too much stuff, though. Nor would I suggest rushing to the store and trying to corner the market on pintos in a crisis.

Half the folks here have freezers packed full of meat and buy in bulk and can stuff. It's just not unusual behavior here. 300 rolls of toilet paper... yeah, that's a little unusual.


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## goshengirl

AlabamaGal said:


> 300 rolls of toilet paper... yeah, that's a little unusual.


Is it unusual to be jealous of your 300 rolls? :dunno:


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## UncleJoe

AlabamaGal said:


> 300 rolls of toilet paper... yeah, that's a little unusual.


Well...uh... We have a little over 100. :sssh:


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## Salekdarling

UncleJoe said:


> Well...uh... We have a little over 100. :sssh:


Y'all got more than I do! So I'm jealous of your 100 rolls. :lolsmash:


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## JayJay

I've been buying for 3 years--ALWAYS on sale..DG, Big Lots, KMart, and SavAlot(rarely)...TP is in 3 closets in different rooms...850!!
Hey!! It was always on sale.

And yes, I've analyzed how much that [email protected] 24 rolls for 10 weeks, that's 6 and 1/2 years.


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## goshengirl

JayJay said:


> Hey!! It was always on sale.


I like the way you think.


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## JayJay

goshengirl said:


> I like the way you think.


Dh is sweet, with beginning stages of dementia...a lot of it I attribute to 3 mini strokes; anyhow, he comes in and tells me who has TP on sale from the circulars in the mail, and I don't know if he's kidding or just forgot how much we have.:scratch
Never a dull moment here..dementia even in early stages is quite intriguing.


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## nukinfuts29

Sourdough said:


> Keep it out of sight, and keep yours and your families mouth shut. It is pointless to prepare, and have someone appropriate your preparations.


This is good advice


----------



## Davarm

I have a 2nd bathroom with a separate shower and tub, am getting ready to pull one or the other out and make a closet for storing Soap, TP and other supplies of that category.

I have to get the lead out and get my separate storage building started-done before I run out of space to live in. I have more end tables, coffee tables and other household furniture made from stores than we can deal with now soooo, gotta do somethen pretty quick.


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## turkeydog

*not until...*



neil-v1 said:


> I was speaking to a neighbor of my parents about getting ready in case the S.H.T.F. This guy tried to tell me that stock-piling food is illegal. Is he full of dung or is he correct? I looked online and some sites say yes and some say no way. I figured I would ask you all here.
> 
> Even if it is illegal, I will still do it but I just want to know the facts. Thanks.


Nothing is illegal if you don't get caught.


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## AlabamaGal

JayJay said:


> I've been buying for 3 years--ALWAYS on sale..DG, Big Lots, KMart, and SavAlot(rarely)...TP is in 3 closets in different rooms...850!!
> Hey!! It was always on sale.


I'll see your 850 rolls of TP and raise you 95 rolls of paper towels. "Mega" rolls. 

There was an email that went around a few years ago "You might be a doomer if..." and the only one I remember was "... the walls of your basement are insulated with toilet paper." AS I read it, I recall thinking, "that doesn't sound like a bad idea."


----------



## austnorm

HoppeEL4 said:


> My husband was in the Air Force and traveled a lot through Europe, and of course was stationed there. He said people there did not store hardly anything in their homes as far as food, they simply shopped daily.


I used to work for Woolworths in Oz. Over here the average basket (shop size) is $30.00 with the average customer shopping _more than once _per day.

We used to use "just in time" ordering systems. This means that delivered tomorrow night is what we would normally sell tomorrow. As the sales patterns are generally static from one fortnight to the next you can reasonably predict what will be sold for any day and ordering at the store and state level are generally done for this, with the warehouses/distribution centres run the same way.

If there was an emergency the stores will be out of stock in hours, and as the warehouse runs the same way any significant issue will take at least two or three days for sufficient stocks to come in to cope. That is assuming that the problem isn't on a larger area.

This is with Mum and Dad not even having a days food in the pantry.

We really are three meals away from anarchy.


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## Von Helman

with so many laws on the books, I think possibly that even talking about stockpiling is against the law.. you dont even have to have anything, just the fact you are talking about. That also goes for taking about breaking any law is also against the law and of course preparing not to be dependent on the Federal Government.. such as having a garden in the city etc.. that for sure has to be illegal

Sad the shape of the world especially in the land of the free (USA) 

I'm rogue and a rebel.. I stockpile to my hearts content.. of course I own a grocery store so I have to stockpile but that's my excuse


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## UncleJoe

Von Helman! Long time no see. :wave:


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## Von Helman

UncleJoe said:


> Von Helman! Long time no see. :wave:


yes when I first signed up here the site ran too slow for me, I am on dial up and it took forever to load or post or anything so I basically didn't visit much

then I would come back at times to see what was going on and now it looks as if the site has a new board skin or something, it runs faster too :2thumb:


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## HoppeEL4

austnorm, I am not a well traveled woman, where is Oz (hope we're not talking about the Oz in Wizard of Oz...LOL)? I'd say from "mum" you were Canadian or from UK?

It is hard for me to imagine...I remember one of my brothers working for a small grocery store here in town, and I would walk to the back and wait for him to ride home after he was done. There was always a good supply of all manner of things, including frozen, cold storage and of course non-perishables. I know stores do not now, they have the system that practically sends trucks out every day, packed with only what the scanners picked up was getting low.

Even our huge grocery stores here in the U.S. would be cleaned out in an emergency situation within hours, I can't imagine what stores in Europe of other places would be like.


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## BillM

There is no statute that makes it illegal for an individual or group to store food in the USA under normal circumstances.

It may be illegal under martial law , but we are not currently under martial law.

If martial law was declared, the food you currently have, is still your food and you can not be charged with hoarding or proffiteering retroactivelly.

Sorry, but if you were counting on being able to think of your self as a, "Rebel" , because you are hideing a case of "Pork & Beans in the basement, you are going to have to do somthing a little more radical .


----------



## mdprepper

HoppeEL4 said:


> It is hard for me to imagine...I remember one of my brothers working for a small grocery store here in town, and I would walk to the back and wait for him to ride home after he was done. There was always a good supply of all manner of things, including frozen, cold storage and of course non-perishables. I know stores do not now, they have the system that practically sends trucks out every day, packed with only what the scanners picked up was getting low.
> 
> Even our huge grocery stores here in the U.S. would be cleaned out in an emergency situation within hours, I can't imagine what stores in Europe of other places would be like.


I just started a new job on Monday at a "large grocery chain". This is the first time I have worked at a grocery store for 25 years. Back in the 1980's the stores warehouse always had pallets of canned products. The freezers were always full. I was shocked to be given a tour of this store and saw how small the warehouse was. I was even more shocked to see how very little back up supply they had. If you stacked it right it may have filled 3 pallets(food, paper products, pet food, etc). Thats it. I kept thinking, when I come in shopping to stock up, I must really screw up their orders.


----------



## greaseman

Von Helman said:


> with so many laws on the books, I think possibly that even talking about stockpiling is against the law.. you dont even have to have anything, just the fact you are talking about. That also goes for taking about breaking any law is also against the law and of course preparing not to be dependent on the Federal Government.. such as having a garden in the city etc.. that for sure has to be illegal
> 
> Sad the shape of the world especially in the land of the free (USA)
> 
> I'm rogue and a rebel.. I stockpile to my hearts content.. of course I own a grocery store so I have to stockpile but that's my excuse


one little thing to remember---we aren't in the land of the free anymore. that has been gone for a long time. maybe that will change soon. we can only hope.


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## kd7mnr

*Stock pilling of food meaning keeping enough food for ones family*

Interesting concept. I worked on a farm, 50 miles out in the boonies. The winters in Montana can leave snow up to 3 4 feet or more deep. People can be snowed in for very long periods of time so running down to the store is not an option. The only wise option is a well stocked food supply. Make sense?


----------



## greaseman

*preps*



kd7mnr said:


> Interesting concept. I worked on a farm, 50 miles out in the boonies. The winters in Montana can leave snow up to 3 4 feet or more deep. People can be snowed in for very long periods of time so running down to the store is not an option. The only wise option is a well stocked food supply. Make sense?


 Obviously, more people are catching on to the prep thing. For me, it has been a natural thing to do my entire life, as well as for my wife. it's just something we practice as a normal course of events. I just consider it insurance against the unknown.
I guess soon enough, we will get a chance to find out how many other Americans have a similiar idea. Not nearly enough I suspicion. I think for those getting started in the prep movement, they all had an "aha' moment, and listened to their gut, instead of some talking head on the lame stream media telling them we are in a rcovery. The stark reality of what is seen on the street level is starting to take hold of many. But we all know it will be too little , too late.
Good luck readers. Just remember though---luck favors the prepared,


----------



## Clarice

I remember when I lived in Montana and western Wyoming every fall the grocery stores would have winter stock up sales, offering special prices for buying by the case.


----------



## Von Helman

mdprepper said:


> I just started a new job on Monday at a "large grocery chain". This is the first time I have worked at a grocery store for 25 years. Back in the 1980's the stores warehouse always had pallets of canned products. The freezers were always full. I was shocked to be given a tour of this store and saw how small the warehouse was. I was even more shocked to see how very little back up supply they had. If you stacked it right it may have filled 3 pallets(food, paper products, pet food, etc). Thats it. I kept thinking, when I come in shopping to stock up, I must really screw up their orders.


Its sad that the grocery companies have gone to on time delivery from large distribution centers rather than having small individual storerooms like grocery stores use to have. I understand this from a money and business perspective but not from a community emergency perspective, and so once again money and profit win out over common sense.

What can anyone really do, its so hard these days as zoning laws and restrictions have all but eliminated the ability for small grocery stores or corner markets from operating or even opening.

I find that once the people realize how screwed they are it will be too late to do anything about it.


----------



## Von Helman

greaseman said:


> one little thing to remember---we aren't in the land of the free anymore. that has been gone for a long time. maybe that will change soon. we can only hope.


Yes I know, it was kind of an off cuff sarcastic statement following my rant about all the laws and restrictions


----------



## JayJay

AlabamaGal said:


> I'll see your 850 rolls of TP and raise you 95 rolls of paper towels. "Mega" rolls.
> 
> There was an email that went around a few years ago "You might be a doomer if..." and the only one I remember was "... the walls of your basement are insulated with toilet paper." AS I read it, I recall thinking, "that doesn't sound like a bad idea."


I have this huge attic..so I bought 4 x 4 plywood(odd sizes) for $1 each...went upstairs and nailed me a floor--so when it gets a little warmer, I will move the TP up there.
A certain someone will never notice.

And AlabamaGal..I did the calculation for TP versus Paper towels..it's about the same moneywise..so for those that have PT instead of TP, it can be used for about the same expense.
I tried to break my habit of PT in the kitchen---man, I cound not do it.

I like the 'choose a size'--less waste.


----------



## AlabamaGal

JayJay said:


> And AlabamaGal..I did the calculation for TP versus Paper towels..it's about the same moneywise..so for those that have PT instead of TP, it can be used for about the same expense.
> I tried to break my habit of PT in the kitchen---man, I cound not do it.
> 
> I like the 'choose a size'--less waste.


I agree; the choose-a-size are great. I have been able to significantly reduce my paper towel habit by using cheapo paper napkins. Also, I've been using cloth napkins for many years and recently demoted the old ones to kitchen rags and got new "tea towels" for napkins. Plus lots and lots of cloth towels for bigger jobs. I always have extra room in the washer when doing light colors.

An attic full of easily shreddable paper sounds like heaven to rodents. You might want to keep any eye on that and some rodent blocks handy.


----------



## YourOwnHomeStore

Maybe he was referring to the recent talk about having more than 7 days of food makes people "potential terrorists"?


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## Woody

Good then this is how I see it.

I only have 7 days worth of food, for 75 people.

I only have food for 7 days. Yes, I eat a LOT.


----------



## HoppeEL4

> I tried to break my habit of PT in the kitchen---man, I cound not do it.
> 
> I like the 'choose a size'--less waste.


Yep, those are great. I used to, before those came along, tear paper towels in half and leave the other half for someone else, my husband used to get all weird about it, till he realized it was saving money (you don't always need a whole one) and till he saw paper towel manufacturers caught onto it...

Using paper towels in place of TP, I would not suggest...even if you split the layers in half, they can still clog up a toilet easily, even more so with an older place, you know, the pipes in an older place are not as clear as a newer home...yuk.


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## Bobbb

Von Helman said:


> Its sad that the grocery companies have gone to on time delivery from large distribution centers rather than having small individual storerooms like grocery stores use to have. I understand this from a money and business perspective but not from a community emergency perspective, and so once again money and profit win out over common sense.
> 
> What can anyone really do, its so hard these days as zoning laws and restrictions have all but eliminated the ability for small grocery stores or corner markets from operating or even opening.
> 
> I find that once the people realize how screwed they are it will be too late to do anything about it.


Why should the responsibility for insuring adequate foodstocks in case of emergency fall onto some grocery stores? Your comment indicates that you understand exactly why lean inventory is the desired business model for grocers. It simply boils down to this - if some grocery beefs up inventory, then they eat into their profits and some competitor will match their profitability and undercut them on price by going lean, so there is no compelling business rationale for having fat inventory.

In terms of prepared society, why is it the grocer's responsibility to insure that there is an x-day amount of food on the shelves? This just makes the populace free riders - the grocers have to put up the cash to keep fat inventory levels on stocki and consumers, when the SHTF will be the beneficiaries because you know that a.) the government will put in place policing to prevent, or limit, price gouging (one way that the grocer could profit from having fat inventory levels) and b.) shoplifting and outright violent theft will skyrocket when all that stands between a cash-poor and starving man and the food he wants is "respect for private property and the law."

There's no benefit for grocers having fat inventory levels. The one's who benefit - the people who eat the food, are the ones who should be paying the freight for stockpiling food - paying for shelves in their homes, paying for the food, paying for the square footage, paying for the packaging, paying for the rotation, etc because this insurance will benefit them directly if they have to make a claim on the insurance.


----------



## Bobbb

AlabamaGal said:


> I'll see your 850 rolls of TP and raise you 95 rolls of paper towels. "Mega" rolls.
> 
> There was an email that went around a few years ago "You might be a doomer if..." and the only one I remember was "... the walls of your basement are insulated with toilet paper." AS I read it, I recall thinking, "that doesn't sound like a bad idea."


Instead of stockpiling you can entertain two alternative strategies:

1.) The Sheryl Crow Strategy of only using one square of TP per toilet use (good luck on that.), or;

2.) Plumb in a bidet and severely cut, or eliminate entirely, your TP usage.

If I was prepping for a world where the manufacturing cycle breaks down, then stockpiling 850 rolls of TP would only be delaying the inevitable by a few years and that TP cache could be ruined by a flood or a leaky pipe or mold, or what have you, and in either case (use all the TP or have it be damaged/destroyed) puts me into the same situation as those who don't have any TP stockpiled at the beginning of the crisis.

Better, from my point of view, to use my resources and take advantage of the manufacturing and destribution infrastructre that exists today to plumb in a bidet, thus freeing up storage space for food and such.

Alternatively, when the SHTF, you can always run a garden hose into your toilet and clean yourself with a nice blast of cold spring water. Make sure though that you turn your faucet onto high pressure


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## gypsysue

Bobbb said:


> 2.) Plumb in a bidet and severely cut, or eliminate entirely, your TP usage.
> 
> Better, from my point of view, to use my resources and take advantage of the manufacturing and destribution infrastructre that exists today to plumb in a bidet, thus freeing up storage space for food and such.
> 
> Alternatively, when the SHTF, you can always run a garden hose into your toilet and clean yourself with a nice blast of cold spring water. Make sure though that you turn your faucet onto high pressure


Riiiiight....and when the SHTF people will have running water/pressurized water? Seems like an impractical suggestion. Other alternatives such as washable toilet paper cloths for after TSHTF seems more practical. There are other alternatives too. But I agree, storing tons of TP is not a good option, and for many of the reasons you listed.


----------



## 41south

Bobbb said:


> Instead of stockpiling you can entertain two alternative strategies:
> 
> 1.) The Sheryl Crow Strategy of only using one square of TP per toilet use (good luck on that.), or;
> 
> 2.) Plumb in a bidet and severely cut, or eliminate entirely, your TP usage.
> 
> If I was prepping for a world where the manufacturing cycle breaks down, then stockpiling 850 rolls of TP would only be delaying the inevitable by a few years and that TP cache could be ruined by a flood or a leaky pipe or mold, or what have you, and in either case (use all the TP or have it be damaged/destroyed) puts me into the same situation as those who don't have any TP stockpiled at the beginning of the crisis.
> 
> Better, from my point of view, to use my resources and take advantage of the manufacturing and destribution infrastructre that exists today to plumb in a bidet, thus freeing up storage space for food and such.
> 
> Alternatively, when the SHTF, you can always run a garden hose into your toilet and clean yourself with a nice blast of cold spring water. Make sure though that you turn your faucet onto high pressure


Bobb, surely you said this in jest. If TSHTF I am sure water will be of far more value than toilet paper. I was raised in an area where some folks didn't have indoor toilets when I was a kid, most of them added on bathrooms by the late Sixties. But they all had running water in the kitchen as far back as I can remember.

Corn cobs had more uses than a pipe for Frosty the snowman's pipe, as did Sears and Roebuck catalogs. One day without drinking water and a corncob won't feel so rough.


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## Davarm

We have not stockpiled that much TP, the daughters ask why not more than the 150 rolls that I set back and I have told them "one way or another, that is a problem that will eventually take care of itself".

When they opened the cabinet and saw a bag of corn shucks and a pile of corn cobs next to the rolls of TP, they started to bring home extra rolls when they shop.

Think gypsysue probably had the right ideal, we have several laundry hampers of wash clothes and plenty of soap that would fit the bill.


----------



## Bobbb

41south said:


> Bobb, surely you said this in jest. If TSHTF I am sure water will be of far more value than toilet paper. I was raised in an area where some folks didn't have indoor toilets when I was a kid, most of them added on bathrooms by the late Sixties. But they all had running water in the kitchen as far back as I can remember.
> 
> Corn cobs had more uses than a pipe for Frosty the snowman's pipe, as did Sears and Roebuck catalogs. One day without drinking water and a corncob won't feel so rough.


Living without water is impossible, so access to water supplies, by my reckoning, should take higher precedence than worrying about food, clothing, medicine, shelter, etc. Once access is secured, then the question shifts to volume and, I believe, that once you are on some secure land (meaning that you're not crowded into a city) then you either have access to your own well water, access to a lake, river, creek, or you are in such a small location that you and your neighbors can control your small municipal water distribution system. Frankly I'm having trouble imagining that someone prepared to ride out the collapse is going to be faced with issues of water rationing but maybe that's just my lack of imagination. I'm going to have plenty of water for living, for animals, for crops, so sparing some water to clean my privates is not going to be a life threatening diversion. I can always access water but my ability to access, or develop, a pulp mill is non-existent.


----------



## gypsysue

You're missing the point, Bobbbb. We might have water but that water might be 1) something that has to be carried in a bucket from a rain barrel/pond/stream/other, or 2) in limited supply and therefore precious. Some people won't have enough water to dump down the toilet to flush it, let alone run a "_bidet_". Some people might even have to dig privvies outside.

Considering the many alternatives (most of which are cheap or free), I'd rather invest my money in food and medical supplies and wipe my delicate little hiney (*choke cough laugh*) with leaves, catalogs, phone books, cloth squares cut from old towels (then boiled over a fire outside and hung in the sun), corncobs, or whatever!


----------



## Davarm

I love you people, sometimes "youall" make me feel almost normal.:2thumb:


----------



## horseman09

JMHO, but I think for those who have the room, a few months supply of TP is wise.

How long will a SHTF situation last? No one knows. If the grid goes down for, say, only 2 months, lots of nasty things can happen in that time frame, including rampant and perhaps deadly diarrhea within a household due to poor hygiene. Or a nuke event.

As GS said, water could be the most valuable commodity in many areas, but not just for city dwellers. For example, we live in a very rural area and we have access to several nearby ponds and streams, but daily trips to get water would present zombies with choice targets.

Again, JMHO, but I think it's wise to prepare by limiting outdoor exposure as much as possible in a SHTF scenario. Ya never know.....the time might come when just stepping outside could be the most dangerous thing you do. Think the Balkans. Think snipers.


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## HoppeEL4

> 1.) The Sheryl Crow Strategy of only using one square of TP per toilet use (good luck on that.),


Does she really? How do you get away with that? No...wait I am not wanting to imagine.


----------



## BillM

*Corn Cobs*



Davarm said:


> We have not stockpiled that much TP, the daughters ask why not more than the 150 rolls that I set back and I have told them "one way or another, that is a problem that will eventually take care of itself".
> 
> When they opened the cabinet and saw a bag of corn shucks and a pile of corn cobs next to the rolls of TP, they started to bring home extra rolls when they shop.
> 
> Think gypsysue probably had the right ideal, we have several laundry hampers of wash clothes and plenty of soap that would fit the bill.


A tip on Corn Cobs for use in the out house !

You need two red cobs and one white cob.

You use a red one first and then you use a white one to see if you need another red one !!


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## Bigdog57

The way the ancient Romans did it......

http://www.wondersandmarvels.com/2009/08/what-the-romans-used-for-toilet-paper.html

Roman baths and hygiene......

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/hygienebaths/a/102310-Hygiene-In-Ancient-Rome.htm

And I'll leave y'all with....

*She also writes that they were comfortable places, where one might sit and read, or otherwise "amuse oneself sociably," hoping for [dinner] invitations. She cites a ditty by Martial:

Why does Vacerra spend his hours
in all the privies, and day-long sit?
He wants a supper, not a s**t." *


----------



## The_Blob

Bigdog57 said:


> The way the ancient Romans did it......
> 
> http://www.wondersandmarvels.com/2009/08/what-the-romans-used-for-toilet-paper.html
> 
> Roman baths and hygiene......
> 
> http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/hygienebaths/a/102310-Hygiene-In-Ancient-Rome.htm
> 
> And I'll leave y'all with....
> 
> *She also writes that they were comfortable places, where one might sit and read, or otherwise "amuse oneself sociably," hoping for [dinner] invitations. She cites a ditty by Martial:
> 
> Why does Vacerra spend his hours
> in all the privies, and day-long sit?
> He wants a supper, not a s**t." *


Rome fell you know...


----------



## Bigdog57

They lasted far longer than we will. Anyways, interesting practices when you don't have any Charmin to squeeze......


----------



## gypsysue

Don't get me wrong... while I don't think installing a bidet AS a prep FOR if/when TSHTF is a good idea (unless one has already accumulted so many preps that they're looking for ways to spend excess money, in which case I would be happy to relieve you of the burden of too much money!  ), storing up some toilet paper for the transition time is a good idea. At least a few month's worth, maybe even a year's supply. It gives you time to prepare for what you'll do next for TP.

Plus, if the 'situation' only last a couple months or so, then you don't have to worry about the alternatives! 

IMO, it's going to take a few months for people to emotionally adjust to the 'new world as we know it' if there's a huge collapse/war/whatever. We'll have enough to deal with without having to figure out toilet paper! If we can have things on hand to lessen the shock and stress, more the better.


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## greaseman

under the present laws, basically everything a prepper does is illegal. The authorities can choose to enforce it anythime they see fit. They just don't right now. If martial law would be declared, I would think that many preppers would consider hiding their stash. But in reality, why would the authorities spend the countless hours, and manpower to check for excess food supplies, when they would surely have bigger fish to fry. But if you remember reports about katrina, in all that disaster setting, the authorities had enough manpower to go door to door, and seize guns. It's hard to figure what they will do. I would err on the side of caution.


----------



## Davarm

greaseman said:


> under the present laws, basically everything a prepper does is illegal. The authorities can choose to enforce it anythime they see fit. They just don't right now. If martial law would be declared, I would think that many preppers would consider hiding their stash. But in reality, why would the authorities spend the countless hours, and manpower to check for excess food supplies, when they would surely have bigger fish to fry. But if you remember reports about katrina, in all that disaster setting, the authorities had enough manpower to go door to door, and seize guns. It's hard to figure what they will do. I would err on the side of caution.


I think that about sums it up.


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## SageAdvicefarmgirl

I would say the bigger threat is that other parasites (besides the gubt) will be the ones looking for any sizeable stashes of food and geear...HOWEVER, they may be encouraged to do so, and even justified by gubt to "take from the rich" to give to---themselves!

Keep it low key! But keep on keeping on!


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## AlabamaGal

The Romans also had something like 4 or 5 slaves for every person who got to use a bathhouse. Not a bad system... provided you get to be in the top 17%.

Personally, if the TP runs out I'll use mullein leaves. Soft and fuzzy and grows like, er, a weed. Or rags. Somehow the idea that I should spend about $10k on a house extension and replumbing so I can install a bidet presuming that there is no toilet paper available but my local water supply is still well pressurized and available seems like a fool's wal to spend money. While bidets are nice, and possibly the most obvious sign of true civilization, $10k will buy me about 20,000 rolls of toilet paper, or a 32+ year supply if I splurge and go through one roll a week.


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## HoppeEL4

> The rich and famous, from the emperor on down, enjoyed running water in palaces and mansions *from lead pipes *connected to the aqueducts. At Pompeii, for instance, all houses except the poorest had water pipes fitted with taps,


This would explain why so many of their leaders seemed insane....they were just brain damaged!

As for TP, well..up here, should the needs arise and we happen to be out, there is a grapevine someone planted years ago, those are nice big leaves. Other than that locally, we have big leaf maple trees (if they are leafing), and last might be cedar branches. None, of course, could be thrown down a flushing toilet, all could be burned outdoors. I suppose if one had an outhouse, they could be thrown down that.

Fun discussion!!LOL


----------



## Bobbb

HoppeEL4 said:


> Does she really? How do you get away with that? No...wait I am not wanting to imagine.


The BBC reports:

Singer Sheryl Crow has said a ban on using too much toilet paper should be introduced to help the environment.

Crow has suggested using "only one square per restroom visit, except, of course, on those pesky occasions where two to three could be required".​


----------



## HoppeEL4

What is with these self-righteous, brain-dead commy famous people who think they should be dictating to everyone else how to wipe their butts and whatever their "cause of the day" is?

Lord help us...get rid of these morons in Hollywood.


----------



## Davarm

HoppeEL4 said:


> This would explain why so many of their leaders seemed insane....they were just brain damaged!
> 
> As for TP, well..up here, should the needs arise and we happen to be out, there is a grapevine someone planted years ago, those are nice big leaves. Other than that locally, we have big leaf maple trees (if they are leafing), and last might be cedar branches. None, of course, could be thrown down a flushing toilet, all could be burned outdoors. I suppose if one had an outhouse, they could be thrown down that.
> 
> Fun discussion!!LOL


You know, those big grape leaves can be used in the kitchen too - interesting idea, use em in the bathroom and kitchen, just hopefully not the same leaves.


----------



## SageAdvicefarmgirl

As one of 10 kids grwoing up in a 3 br 1 bath farmhouse in Kansas, we nearly always used the bathroom outdoors, wherever we were...go behind a bush or tree and used leaves, grass or whatever to wipe with. You do tend to learn what plants have softer and larger leaves to use!


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## HoppeEL4

Hahahaha! We grew up here in the Cascades, I am last of six, and my friend and I did that just to avoid going inside to deal with siblings, just gotta be sure not to find a patch of stinging nettles!!LOL


----------



## UncleJoe

HoppeEL4 said:


> just gotta be sure not to find a patch of stinging nettles!!LOL


And the poison ivy!


----------



## RamboMoe

NaeKid said:


> A stock-pile (hoarding) is when you go out and purchase everything in the entire store knowing full-well that the store will not be able to get fresh supplies for a week or so and purposely cause hardship for others.
> 
> Stocking-up is when you visit that same store and purchase a case-lot of goods, but, leave lots of stock on the shelves for others. A slight difference, but, if word is out that a huricane is on its way and you buy everything out of the store, it would be criminal because many others could suffer.
> 
> I can go to the local grocery-warehouse and buy a case of toilet paper. It doesn't matter because there are another 15 cases sitting right beside the case that I want. While there, I can purchase 4 cases of cabbage to make some borscht and no-one will look at me twice - because there are another 30 cases ready for the next person to pick-over.
> 
> I am getting my shopping-list ready for my next run to the warehouse - I just cleaned-out my upstairs-closet of bathroom-supplies and moved my stocks from the basement upstairs and I have to replenish my basement-stocks.
> 
> If you slowly stock-up your shelves in such a way that you do not bring attention to yourself, it isn't a criminal action. If you are video'd for the evening news segment because you got into a fight over the last case of beans in the store when only taking one can would be the right thing to do, it would be considered criminal.


Yeah, this sums it up nicely.


----------



## HoppeEL4

For us, thats the other side of the Cascades thankfully...or southern Oregon. Good for me I have always had a hard time identifying it since I did not grow up around it. Stinging nettles I can.


----------



## brucehylton

Devil's Club has large leaves.


----------



## HoppeEL4

Brucehylton, I looked that up and read that Devils club was used for adult onset diabetes, wow, I wonder what part they used for that? I have been caught up in those spines. Though, gotten more damage to my body from blackberries.


----------



## SlobberToofTigger

HoppeEL4 said:


> Hahahaha! We grew up here in the Cascades, I am last of six, and my friend and I did that just to avoid going inside to deal with siblings, just gotta be sure not to find a patch of stinging nettles!!LOL


I love stinging nettles! They keep the idiots off my farm. For some reason when people float down the river, and spend the night on a gravel bar, they want to tromp all over my farm (yes it is posted). I usually find them stuck in a field whaa'ing because they have passed through a patch of stinging nettles and cannot get out. If I could just separate them into groups based on the tone of their voices I could create an orchestra... Grin.


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## HoppeEL4

Hahaha, people have to learn to identify them so they can avoid them. Insidious miniscule barbs under your skin.


----------



## GreyWolfAlpha

greaseman said:


> under the present laws, basically everything a prepper does is illegal. The authorities can choose to enforce it anythime they see fit. They just don't right now. If martial law would be declared, I would think that many preppers would consider hiding their stash. But in reality, why would the authorities spend the countless hours, and manpower to check for excess food supplies, when they would surely have bigger fish to fry. But if you remember reports about katrina, in all that disaster setting, the authorities had enough manpower to go door to door, and seize guns. It's hard to figure what they will do. I would err on the side of caution.


But you also have to remember the Local, City, State and Federal Govt. can and most likely confiscate what they need from your house for the "Good" of all. I have a friend who is very close to local police near his home. The Chief told him he would never order his officers to confiscate your firearms or provisions.

Maybe he will maybe he won't. Hard to say what a person will do when the time comes. If he won't he will be replaced by someone who will. Don't think they won't find someone. There is always "SOMEONE" who will step up and do what is asked or follow that order. Remember the herd mentality and the experiment where people where giving "Lethal" shock to a unseen subject at a college. Some questioned but still followed orders anyway. Very few have the moral courage to say no, specially faced with peer pressure or the "Legitimate Authority" on their side.

We have to cases to study for this; one is the economic collapse of Argentina and the other is the Balkan War. All one has to do is search and read. A gentleman named Ferfal for Argentina and Salco for the Balkan War.

The local "village" I live close to is corrupt and nepotism runs rampant here. I live in the poorest county in the state with the capitol 20 miles up the road. I have no illusions of what I will face and have measures in place to handle this.

Moving is not an option of I would have move long ago. I have contingency plans for the issues at had.

Some simple rules;

Keep your mouth shut about what you do. This includes your family. If they cannot be trusted then you have an issue to deal with. Remember loose lips sink ships.

Keep your nose clean and try to appear "normal" As others have said think Grey Man.

Keep your nose to the wind and your ear to the ground. "See" the warning sings and have triggers that will activate your contingency plans.

Practice, Practice, Practice what ever your plans are and your skills.

Keep the faith and never quit.


----------



## stayingthegame

when the government says it is for your own good, be for warned. case in point Katrina they forced people out of the ninth ward, did not let them in until they had searched every house and taken the guns they could find. then the owners had to prove that they had gotten the guns legally. my family lost two had guns that we had bought at a store that flooded out in chalmette. receipts were lost in the flood.


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## Mr_Moto

The only thing I have heard recently is that people who stockpile food are potential "domestic terrorists". However, so are people who own guns, say the Pledge of Allegiance, sing the national anthem, or believe in the constitution. Guilty on all counts am I.


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## Phoenix1

GreyWolfAlpha said:


> But you also have to remember the Local, City, State and Federal Govt. can and most likely confiscate what they need from your house for the "Good" of all. I have a friend who is very close to local police near his home. The Chief told him he would never order his officers to confiscate your firearms or provisions.
> 
> Maybe he will maybe he won't. Hard to say what a person will do when the time comes. If he won't he will be replaced by someone who will. Don't think they won't find someone. There is always "SOMEONE" who will step up and do what is asked or follow that order. Remember the herd mentality and the experiment where people where giving "Lethal" shock to a unseen subject at a college. Some questioned but still followed orders anyway. Very few have the moral courage to say no, specially faced with peer pressure or the "Legitimate Authority" on their side.
> 
> We have to cases to study for this; one is the economic collapse of Argentina and the other is the Balkan War. All one has to do is search and read. A gentleman named Ferfal for Argentina and Salco for the Balkan War.
> 
> The local "village" I live close to is corrupt and nepotism runs rampant here. I live in the poorest county in the state with the capitol 20 miles up the road. I have no illusions of what I will face and have measures in place to handle this.
> 
> Moving is not an option of I would have move long ago. I have contingency plans for the issues at had.
> 
> Some simple rules;
> 
> Keep your mouth shut about what you do. This includes your family. If they cannot be trusted then you have an issue to deal with. Remember loose lips sink ships.
> 
> Keep your nose clean and try to appear "normal" As others have said think Grey Man.
> 
> Keep your nose to the wind and your ear to the ground. "See" the warning sings and have triggers that will activate your contingency plans.
> 
> Practice, Practice, Practice what ever your plans are and your skills.
> 
> Keep the faith and never quit.


Words of wisdom right here.


----------



## ComputerGuy

GreyWolfAlpha said:


> But you also have to remember the Local, City, State and Federal Govt. can and most likely confiscate what they need from your house for the "Good" of all. I have a friend who is very close to local police near his home. The Chief told him he would never order his officers to confiscate your firearms or provisions.
> 
> Maybe he will maybe he won't. Hard to say what a person will do when the time comes. If he won't he will be replaced by someone who will. Don't think they won't find someone. There is always "SOMEONE" who will step up and do what is asked or follow that order. Remember the herd mentality and the experiment where people where giving "Lethal" shock to a unseen subject at a college. Some questioned but still followed orders anyway. Very few have the moral courage to say no, specially faced with peer pressure or the "Legitimate Authority" on their side.
> 
> We have to cases to study for this; one is the economic collapse of Argentina and the other is the Balkan War. All one has to do is search and read. A gentleman named Ferfal for Argentina and Salco for the Balkan War.
> 
> The local "village" I live close to is corrupt and nepotism runs rampant here. I live in the poorest county in the state with the capitol 20 miles up the road. I have no illusions of what I will face and have measures in place to handle this.
> 
> Moving is not an option of I would have move long ago. I have contingency plans for the issues at had.
> 
> Some simple rules;
> 
> Keep your mouth shut about what you do. This includes your family. If they cannot be trusted then you have an issue to deal with. Remember loose lips sink ships.
> 
> Keep your nose clean and try to appear "normal" As others have said think Grey Man.
> 
> Keep your nose to the wind and your ear to the ground. "See" the warning sings and have triggers that will activate your contingency plans.
> 
> Practice, Practice, Practice what ever your plans are and your skills.
> 
> Keep the faith and never quit.


Very Nice POst. What county are you in?


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## lefty

legal or not, make no mistake if they need it and can the gov will come and seize your supplies.


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## Davarm

lefty said:


> legal or not, make no mistake if they need it and can the gov will come and seize your supplies.


I grow castor beans and oleanders on my property, they may make a good addition to the preps that are being seized.


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## lefty

Davarm said:


> I grow castor beans and oleanders on my property, they may make a good addition to the preps that are being seized.


lol yes they do


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## HoppeEL4

> legal or not, make no mistake if they need it and can the gov will come and seize your supplies.


I don't have any supplies, only a few days worth of food like FEMA says to do...


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## Diego2112

HoppeEL4 said:


> I don't have any supplies, only a few days worth of food like FEMA says to do...


Same here. No prepping going on whatsoever!eep:


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## md1911

Shoot in this tough economy how could anybody afford to stockpile anything. Littlon food. Have yoe seen the price of milk?


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## ContinualHarvest

Opsec. They can't take what they never know about.


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## HoppeEL4

> Have yoe seen the price of milk?


Here it is about $2.59 a gallon, been holding steady for some time. I think prices also can reflect if a product is local or not. Our overall wheat product prices here are really good, a bag of flour (5#) is about $2.00, sometimes less during high baking seasons such as the main Holidays.


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## BasecampUSA

*MOLON LABE !!*

Goes for the guns...

Goes for the food too...

No eat - no live...

No guns - no defense...

No defense - no food...

No food - no live...

No freedom - no worth livin' anyway !


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## BillM

*Allocation of resorses*

The federal goverment is not going to come for your preps or your guns when the SHTF.

They will have enough on their plate without messing with people who are not messing with them.

They keep a years supply of food on hand to serve the military and years of food for the essentual goverment people and their famielys.

If you have a years supply of food on hand for you and your famiely, do you realy think it would be logistically profitable for them to hunt it down and take it when with less effort , they can conficate warehouses full of food?

If you arn't bothering them, it is not likely that they will bother you .


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## HoppeEL4

BillM I can agree with this. I think the biggest issue is with local people either desperate, or criminal who pose the bigeest threat. 

However on the issue about government, prepping is borderline being a suspect for right wing extremism...seems they are heading this way, and this does concern me. This could be the reason they go after preppers, not your preps.


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## gitnready4it

Like everyone said, stock up and keep it to yourself or everyone will know just where to go when tshtf!:sssh:


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## pattypenny

How could it be illigal to buy food? This is someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. The latter day saints encourage their members to have a year supply of food on hand and even have factories that can food for this purpose.


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## mojo4

I agree with bill. Totally legal to store and even smarter to pay with cash. No records and use up the pesos before they get recalled for unknown reasons.


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## Diego2112

pattypenny said:


> How could it be illigal to buy food? This is someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. The latter day saints encourage their members to have a year supply of food on hand and even have factories that can food for this purpose.


I believe the information in question is found here:

http://info.publicintelligence.net/FBI-SuspiciousActivity/Military_Surplus.pdf

THAT states that people who buy MREs in bulk should be suspect. It does NOT, however, state that people buying FOOD in bulk should be. However, with how hard MY state has started pushing the "If you see something, SAY something" bit, it's only a hop-skip-and-a-jump before people start turning in un-liked neighbors.

ALWAYS remember: SHHHHHHHH!!! Someone could be listening!:flower:


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## HoppeEL4

Mine is done in trips, and not huge ones. They look like normal shopping trips, nothing more. Paid with cash. I am just working on a "well stocked pantry"...


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## momofsix

I'm probably going to be removed from the forum for this but here it goes. The FBI should take interest on certain individuals buying mass amounts of weapons and mre in one or two trips. That's probably a good thing to look for in terrorist activities. I do not think that people like us who go and buy a few weapons a year and store food is their main concern. IMHO there are extremists every where some may ask what the hell I am doing on this site but if they are just looking for those people who r buying 10 assualt rifles and 8000 rounds of ammo then OK that's probably a good thing. Sorry to offend anyone


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## GaryS

The feds don't mess with guys buying guns and ammo by the gross, they just assume the stuff is being sent to Mexico, and that's okay.


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## Diego2112

GaryS said:


> The feds don't mess with guys buying guns and ammo by the gross, they just assume the stuff is being sent to Mexico, and that's okay.


Quoted for truth. :beercheer:

That's the first time I've laughed today, mate, and I appreciate it. Normally, my posts have a bit more substance than this, but I really wanted to let you know, you made my bloody day! :flower:


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## HoppeEL4

momofsix, I don't think that's offensive to say, it is probably right, currently. I do think there will be a time when simple preppers will be looked at, maybe not now. I do think it is on the feds mind, but right now with the popularity of the show, and many stocking up, they would offend too many, so they are keeping their distance. However, there could be that one incidence that would start it all up, when, we cannot say, what it would be, no one knows.

Right now I do not own a gun, and never have shot one. I know it never hurts to have one, or two and be good at it. My main goal is a "well stocked pantry"  for my families sake.


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## rider1k

just to even think that it might be illegal to store food is pathetic! Why the hell should anyone tell you how you can feed your family? look at your cupboards. I'd say that most people have 3 days of food in their house if they just look into it.Probably more. So that means most Americans will need to be put in jail.


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## Davarm

If the price of motor fuel keeps rising, people in this country may get a taste of why some of us store up "provisions". Just saw on Fox News that Micky D's is going to raise their prices by 5-7% and thats with fuel being around $4.00 per gallon.

Just imagine when it goes up to $7.00 to $8.00 or more. I wonder what a cup of Starbucks would cost then.


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## rider1k

No [email protected]!!! Costs almost 16.00 to fill my motorcycle!!!! 110.00 to filly truck!!! A weeks groceries for three.... Lmao!!!! I make great money! I need a second job!!


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## Davarm

A few people I know are clueless as to why I spend so much time in my garden and are totally floored when I tell them it is nearing an acre. Its been so long since I filled up my Tahoe, I dont know how much it would cost, It just sits in the driveway, full of gas, waiting until it is needed(bov). If I need to go somewhere, I take one of the DD's cars, they get 30+ mpg, the guzzler only gets 14.

I'm glad I bought all those cans of gas when it was less than $2.00 per gallon. I sure hope the Sta-Bil works or I'm gonna take a (big)hit.

When I was a teenager it cost about a buck and a half to fill the 3 or 4 gallon tank(dont remember exactly) on my bike.


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## driscolldb

It seems that Hawaii is the only state with an actual anti-hoarding law for food.

For Hawaii, this information will be found in Title 10 under "Public Safety". It is located after legislation on militias, state guard troops, etc. Then you find the jewel... In Hawaii you are considered a "hoarder" if you have more than one week's provisions on hand BUT you have to dig to uncover this information. Here is a specific example:

"HAWAII REVISED STATUTES REVISED 1997, Title 10:

(1) Prevention of *hoarding, waste, etc. To the extent necessary to prevent hoarding, waste, or destruction of materials, supplies, commodities, accommodations, facilities, and services, to effectuate equitable distribution thereof, or to establish priorities therein as the public welfare may require, to investigate, and any other law to the contrary notwithstanding, to regulate or prohibit, by means of licensing, rationing, or otherwise, the storage, transportation, use, possession, maintenance, furnishing, sale, or distribution thereof, and any business or any transaction related thereto."

Committee Notes? Huh?

In the actual Title document for Hawaii, you will not find the specifics for what length of time constitutes "hoarding" nor an amount. Instead, you must look at the committee notes which describes it as the opinion that one week's supplies per person is considered adequate food provisions. It is not spelled out what those provisions shall consist of or how much is considered "adequate" until you get to the committee notes.

You will probably have to "dig" for the committee notes as well. Lynn Shaffer, our legislative interpreter, explains committee notes this way. "When the legislature agrees that a law or statute is needed to effect certain governmental goals to prohibit or encourage civilians to respond in a particular way, that statute has attached to it (you will see it printed in the law books) what is called "committee notes." The courts, when making a determination of how the statute is to be interpreted and applied to the case before it, looks to "legislative intent" or what was recorded in the committee's notes when the bill was meandering its way through the legislative process."

OK, So If I Hoard, Then What?

Again using Hawaii's Titles as an example, any items in excess of what legislation has deemed appropriate to store (in Hawaii's case any amount over 1 week) is subject to forfeiture and may be confiscated, ordered destroyed or may be redistributed for public use. See exact text below:

"128-28 Forfeitures. The forfeiture of any property unlawfully possessed, pursuant to paragraph (2) of section 128-8, may be adjudged upon conviction of the offender found to be unlawfully in possession of the same, where no person other than the offender is entitled to notice and hearing with respect to the forfeiture, or the forfeiture may be enforced by an appropriate civil proceeding brought in the name of the State. The district courts and circuit courts shall have concurrent jurisdiction of the civil proceedings. Any property forfeited as provided in this section may be ordered destroyed, or may be ordered delivered for public use to such agency as shall be designated by the governor or the governor's representative, or may be ordered sold, wholly or partially, for the account of the State. [L 1951, c 268, pt of 2; RL 1955, 359-25; HRS 128- 28; am imp L 1984, c 90, 1]"


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## PrepN4Good

The Feds may or may not take your food; with the way things are "progressing" (yes, intentional pun), it really wouldn't suprize me, unfortunately. 

However, I think the more likely scenario is a "food raid" by local/state govt when TSHTF. (And don't assume the friendly local Sheriff will still be in charge when that happens. We just don't know.) The "locals" are more likely to notice you're not as skinny as the rest of the neighborhood, or recall you used to come home with 50lb bags of rice in the back of your pick-up, or are strangely absent from the line at the emergency soup kitchen. :sssh:


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## Asatrur

So according to Hawaii, it is illegal to hoard food based on this, but the penalty for doing this might be destruction of said food. Makes no sense to me.
"(1) Prevention of *hoarding, waste, etc. To the extent necessary to prevent hoarding, waste, or destruction of materials, supplies, commodities, accommodations, facilities, and services, to effectuate equitable distribution thereof, or to establish priorities therein as the public welfare may require, to investigate, and any other law to the contrary notwithstanding, to regulate or prohibit, by means of licensing, rationing, or otherwise, the storage, transportation, use, possession, maintenance, furnishing, sale, or distribution thereof, and any business or any transaction related thereto."


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## pixieduster

I may suddenly have to be either a mormon or a sheep. Maybe both...lol! Yep, keeping low profile and taking care of my family. As far as the comments on LE coming to take peoples food away. It sure won't be your local Sheriff Office or Police Department. It will be the Feds. I have had this conversation with many LEO and everyone said "hell no!" We will walk away from duty before that happens. To ever be givin a direct order to take food or fuel from any American trying to survive would cause a hugh walk-out. And they can kiss my a$$ as I walk away. This subject is touched on by LEO's all over the country. Cops have forums too. Can't pigoen hole everybody. Just giving my experience with the subject.


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## pixieduster

Oh yeah, I would suggest making purchases with cash if you can. Amazing how easy it is to track another persons doings. Place, time, date, and items purchased all from using a debit card or credit card. Match that with store video and they can tell you what color socks you had on. (Mostly for the large purchases that may draw attention). I now pay cash all the time for everything.


----------



## JoKing

Asatrur said:


> So according to Hawaii, it is illegal to hoard food based on this, but the penalty for doing this might be destruction of said food. Makes no sense to me.
> "(1) Prevention of *hoarding, waste, etc. To the extent necessary to prevent hoarding, waste, or destruction of materials, supplies, commodities, accommodations, facilities, and services, to effectuate equitable distribution thereof, or to establish priorities therein as the public welfare may require, to investigate, and any other law to the contrary notwithstanding, to regulate or prohibit, by means of licensing, rationing, or otherwise, the storage, transportation, use, possession, maintenance, furnishing, sale, or distribution thereof, and any business or any transaction related thereto."


http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0128/HRS_0128-.htm
Whoever came up with this conspiracy theory is full of sh**! When you knock article 128 down to size, it says that during civil unrest, the government will protect the resources from hoarders and vandals and ensure they get distributed where needed. That WHOLE paragraph is only one(1) sentence long(no sh**). And the forfeiture and destruction? That's referring to how they will deal with quarentines and civil nuisances during 
Martial law. It has nothing to do with hoarding.

Someone is trying to paint a picture of the Feds kicking in your door, and they may, but it won't be because of Article 128. I've got enough to worry about with the little green men.

"Hoarding is a general term for a behavior that leads people or animals to accumulate food or other items during periods of scarcity...Civil unrest or natural disaster may lead people to hoard foodstuffs, water, gasoline, and other essentials which they believe, rightly or wrongly, will soon be in short supply."
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoarding#section_2


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## cabinetman

The 'Feds' would not be my first concern. As mentioned numerous times, keeping what you have collected private is important. No need for your neighbors to be lining up and asking.......demanding to be fed. The next big concern is your community. If they have a disaster relief plan in effect, and they know that neighbor x, y, and z have so much fuel and so much food, there's a chance that they would expropriate it from you to 'share' with the community. After all, the 'needs of the many trump the needs of the few". Right? Your gas could be used by town emergency vehicles. Your food can make what meager supplies the town has go further. 

In the fictional book "Lights Out", that is a big concern for this one family who has put food up for long term storage. The community begins to wither on the vine because no supplies are forthcoming ever again and the officers of the town decide that they have to pool their resources. It will get extremely bad in a hurry when nothing is on the store shelves. The tip off is that you and your family aren't at the center of town begging for your ration today. Why? Because you've got yours at home. The bulk of the town does not. It's noticed that you and yours are conspicuously absent and your supply is discovered. The town says it has to feed everyone equally. You suggest that they go pound sand. It is a scenario that will occur should a true catastrophic event affect the food supply. 

"Lights Out" paints what I feel is the most authentic display of human nature in a bad situation. Early on (a couple of weeks) things are managable. Once a month hits, however, all bets are off and people will steal and kill for food even if you are between them and it.

Rome


----------



## JoKing

*Redirect*



cabinetman said:


> The 'Feds' would not be my first concern.


While I strongly agree, your post would better quench the thirst of the "Fiction Stories" thread.


> As mentioned numerous times, keeping what you have collected private is important.


Or start a new thread about "Transparent Prepping Controversies"by Falsebottomcabinetman.
As far as my research is concerned, it is not illegal to stockpile food in the United States. When the balloon goes up, according to the law, residential food redistribution is not up for debate. If anyone finds a law that is contrary to my statement, make it public with links to the legislation so it can be flushed out. My belief is, that if there is a law out there, it's so secret squirrel that you ain't gonna find it without a wiki leak.


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## Solonot1

I'm stationed in Hawaii, and live on base. Even if this legislation is not intended as presented here, we have demonstrated how it can be interpreted, manipulated, and adjusted to fit that intent. All it would take its a crisis and done. This island is overpopulated, they bring in over 80% of their food, and are thousands of miles from the nearest continent.

If any large scale disaster happens, we will be on our own for a while if transportation goes down. That's why I'm stocking up on food and water. I know the base will provide as best they can, but better safe than sorry.


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## VUnder

Speeding is illegal, but I do it on occasion. In fact, may have done it yesterday, may not have.


----------



## HoppeEL4

I cannot say what the future holds, for any of us, when it comes to when and how things could go terribly wrong in our communities or nation. However, I know I plan to keep what I am doing secret. I have only four neighbors, all older, and all good people. If they were in need I would be darn sure to help them, the older couple next to us, have lived here since 1958, and the other, not as long but he is battling cancer, would not let him go without either. 

However, even if no one could legally come after all I have stored up, does not mean if they knew about it the law would stop them from doing so in a time when things got bad. Anything someone in government wants to do can be justified and done if they see fit. I am keeping my stores quiet.


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## pixieduster

I only have 7 days worth of food, for 75 people.

Ha! Love it. I'm using that one. I may borrow the neighboring children and say they are all mine too. We will dress shabby and play in the mud. No shoes of course.


----------



## horseman09

IMHO, relating current law with what will apply when TSHTF is moot.

In 1941, within 10 days of the Japanese strike at Pearl Harbor, Congress gave FDR virtually unlimited powers. Right or wrong? You decide.

His administration confiscated homes -- even whole towns (one example I know of is not far from Williamsport, PA), he had warrantless arrest powers with detention until the end of hostilities, he controlled virtually every business and industry in the country. He ordered nearly every company from GM to Electrolux to cease peacetime domestic production and convert to producing wartime materiel. He did not ask. He was given the power to *order* these changes.

Nearly every staple was rationed and hoarding was illegal and violators were prosecuted. That included meat, cheese, butter, sugar, coffee and more. People caught indulging in the black market were prosecuted and often jailed.
A few of these powers were actually granted to FDR before Pearl Harbor as the govt saw war looming.

Civil liberties were pretty much extinguished until after the war.

So. Regardless of what any anti-hoarding laws say today, tomorrow could be a whole new ball game. The critical difference as I see it though, is ObaMao is not FDR, and today's fed is nowhere near what it was back then.


----------



## BillS

PrepN4Good said:


> The Feds may or may not take your food; with the way things are "progressing" (yes, intentional pun), it really wouldn't suprize me, unfortunately.
> 
> However, I think the more likely scenario is a "food raid" by local/state govt when TSHTF. (And don't assume the friendly local Sheriff will still be in charge when that happens. We just don't know.) The "locals" are more likely to notice you're not as skinny as the rest of the neighborhood, or recall you used to come home with 50lb bags of rice in the back of your pick-up, or are strangely absent from the line at the emergency soup kitchen. :sssh:


I doubt that there will be any emergency soup kitchens after it hits the fan. But if there are it would make sense to go there and eat with everyone else.


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## cqp33

OK just read the book, "_one second after"_ and what an eye opening book with several scenarios that could play out! One in there was the local government being cut off from communications from "big government". The setting is in a small North Carolina mountain town. It starts with 3 nukes detonated in the upper atmosphere to create a EMP (already been proven this would completely shut down the entire country for months). After martial law is declared and word is received to the local government, the sheriff becomes the local "martial". He talks about going into the "local preppers" house to seize their provisions but decides that the fight would not be worth it in the end, they just would not allow them to "ration" from what they have on hand. Also talks about disease, medication, the druggies running out and now strung out, even talks about squirrel being traded for 5 then later 7 .22 shells and the character in the book talks about the price of squirrel going up by how many .22 bullets it cost for one now! A good read for any of us to think about those "not normally thought of" things, in the end it will help be more prepared.

This book has also been sited on the floor of congress, there are some people within the government that are scared to death of such an event! Here is a copy of what is posted as part of the description of the book.

"Months before publication, One Second After has already been cited on the floor of Congress as a book all Americans should read, a book already being discussed in the corridors of the Pentagon as a truly realistic look at a weapon and its awesome power to destroy the entire United States, literally within one second. It is a weapon that the Wall Street Journal warns could shatter America. In the tradition of On the Beach, Fail Safe and Testament, this book, set in a typical American town, is a dire warning of what might be our future...and our end."

While I am not sure (and nobody can be) how such event would play out with martial law, think about OPSEC as many before have mentioned! I am active duty military so OPSEC is second nature to me, am I prepared yes, how much I will never tell. I will not be the one that has people lining up at the door for, I don't have many friends anyways and I for sure don't want the "all of sudden I am your friend" types!

Something just came to as well! There are many on here with no past military experience and may not know what we mean we say "OPSEC"! It stand for Operational Security, meaning that we don't talk about troop, ship or asset movements or deployments, in order for our operations to sustain security, therefore we gave birth to "OPSEC"! The government and the military loves acronyms!


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## USMCVeteran

neil-v1 said:


> I was speaking to a neighbor of my parents about getting ready in case the S.H.T.F. This guy tried to tell me that stock-piling food is illegal. Is he full of dung or is he correct? I looked online and some sites say yes and some say no way. I figured I would ask you all here.
> 
> Even if it is illegal, I will still do it but I just want to know the facts. Thanks.


This link was updated in 2005 but this may help answer some questions. According to this link while some states have anti-hoarding laws no federal law can be found. However, presidents have signed Executive Orders which give Fedzilla the right to SEIZE from American citizens whatever they deem necessary during an "emergency".

http://standeyo.com/News_Files/Exec.Orders/EOs.html

But wait, there's more.

http://www.sodahead.com/united-stat...ormon-food-storage-facility/question-2331031/


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## LongRider

neil-v1 said:


> This guy tried to tell me that stock-piling food is illegal.


I believe that quote is in the dictionary as an example of BS artist or dumber than a box of rocks


USMCVeteran said:


> This link was updated in 2005 but this may help answer some questions. According to this link while some states have anti-hoarding laws no federal law can be found. However, presidents have signed Executive Orders which give Fedzilla the right to SEIZE from American citizens whatever they deem necessary during an "emergency".
> 
> http://standeyo.com/News_Files/Exec.Orders/EOs.html
> 
> But wait, there's more.
> 
> http://www.sodahead.com/united-stat...ormon-food-storage-facility/question-2331031/


Excellent informative post thank you very much. Worthy of its own thread IMO as these are clear violations of the Constitution. Not laws that make stockpiling preps and food illegal but criminal violations of the very rights our government has sworn to protect and defend


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## Davarm

USMCVeteran said:


> http://www.sodahead.com/united-stat...ormon-food-storage-facility/question-2331031/


This subject was discussed earlier(I think in this thread), it was determined to be a hoax. The cannery in question was contacted and "they" stated that the story was not true.

Of course under the "Patriot Act" you may be not be allowed to acknowledge such an incident ever occurred. You decide!


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## ThoxSpuddy

Tell him that fibbing is illegal.


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## Davarm

ThoxSpuddy said:


> Tell him that fibbing is illegal.


Only if you're under Oath!


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## northernraider

Hoarding is bulk buying or obtaining food when its in short supply and stocks to replace it are unlikely to be delivered, Stockpiling is when people bulk buy in times of plenty and set it aside for a rainy day, The former is often deemed illegal in some countries during times of emergency, the latter is common sense.


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## Padre

Fact is, some places have laws against hoarding, but when the rule of law, as pathetic as it is today, crumbles, the law of might makes right will come for your food if they can find it everywhere in the US and around the world. Therefore OpSec and a "big stick" are essential.


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## HoppeEL4

I wonder, if there are places that outlaw hoarding, what, in the law, constitutes hoarding? Having a well stocked pantry? Got a good deal on TP and you have twenty packs? Fifty pounds of flour? Really it could be totally up in the air as to what hoarding is to someone trying to enforce this law. 

Besides, the other issue is, if this exists only when it comes to a state of emergency and someone goes out and buys all available water then is attempting to control the resource (re-selling it for huge price), but it is hard for me to believe someone could try to enforce that when there are no emergencies and plenty in stores. 

Commerce is commerce, if I want to go out and buy 50 frozen pizzas, who in government is to say I can't? I think many misunderstand what it means in these laws. I would firmly believe that it is speaking about someone who buys up all of one thing in order to price gouge when a supply, such as basic food staples, to financially benefit, but only in an extreme situation such as Katrina. Everyday shopping cannot be controlled.

However, on the flip side, I do believe if SHTF, we would be seeing a lot of break-ins, maybe a handful of rogue officials doing wrong with their authority, but nothing more than that.


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## bahramthered

HoppeEL4; really think on that post for a second. The government already says there are things you can not buy and actively enforces those rules. If you don't believe that ask for some cocaine at wally world. 

It varies fro place to place but it actively mandiates how much alcohol you can buy at one time. Legal to have and use, but they have the right to say how much you can buy at any time. 

Heck my state mandates when your required to use up your legally harvested deer meat. 

Easiest way for the government to impose anti hording laws would be to crack down on the super markets. Just like they do the bars right now.

If it Sh!T where to happen, and by that I mean vicious and total, I could see house searches looking for resources for the good of the community. I've said before I doubt many civilians would stand a chance against the military. Maybe cops from some backwater not the a line.


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## marlas1too

i will keep stocking up as long as i live and that's not counting canning all summer long-anyone that knows i do already knows i will protect it with any-means necessary and they are well informed -I will not see my household go without anything as long as i live


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## ReadyMadeWater

I don't see a problem with it.


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## HoppeEL4

> If it Sh!T where to happen, and by that I mean vicious and total, I could see house searches looking for resources for the good of the community. I've said before I doubt many civilians would stand a chance against the military. Maybe cops from some backwater not the a line.


I agree, I mentioned that too, but overall I cannot see how they can regulate food purchases right now. Stores do only because of their own stock, or when they have an item on sale and want to be "fair" and make sure everyone has a chance at it, but overall, cops are not going to come to your home and go looking for your wheat stash you just bought through Honeyville (or other source).

I do believe if something drastic happens, it is possible someone will come breaking in, or even local authorities might come looking for supplies (either rogue or by virtue of another higher up deciding to have them do so).

But, when it comes to current shopping, the limits in food items are only due to stores simply trying to spread the supplies out till their next stock shipment. I have gone to a store where there are no limits on sales items and bought them out, no one said I could not, no gov't guys came looking for me. I know some places have laws on the books, those obscure laws they might enact should SHTF, or during a political upheaval (I think this is the nearest issue we have in our nation). These laws, like the ones where it is illegal, even husband and wife in private, to do certain things (even when both are consenting), but who is currently going to enforce these and who will come around to find out why you bought out the local grocery of sugar? People frequently special order huge quantities (my husband worked for a store that was open to the public but was a restaurant supplier) of flour, sugar, etc... and no one bothers them about it, that was my point.

SHTF yes it is possible we'll have people around thinking they need to get supplies from everyone....the initial question of this thread was about stockpiling food being illegal, which is talking about before some SHTF scenario.

However, above and beyond this, and as with everyone here, I don't stockpile food.... Thats where I stand.


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## Jack Aubrey

Hoarding is a convenient little word the "have not's" whip out to justify their stealing from you. It's how the grasshoppers vilify the ants for not "sharing." JA


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## Jack Aubrey

I just found this, and I think it is very interesting how they illustrate the definition of "hoarding." It comes from USLegal.com.

"Hoarding is the act of accumulation of assets.Especially goods and money,over and above that needed for immediate use based on fears or expectation of future shortages and higher prices.For example, someone fearing a *GLOBAL COLLAPSE OF THE FINANCIAL SYSTEM* might be inclined to keep bundles of cash or stockpile gold bullion in the closet.Such hoarding, if widely practiced can actually contribute to the anticipated shortages and higher prices."

So granny was an evil hoarder for putting up mason jars for winter. I mean, winter is an anticipated time of shortage, and she was putting aside for winter something that exceeded her next, immediate meal! Right? A paleolithic hunter -gatherer must have written this, not any Neolithic farmer. So, anybody who is not onboard with the eternal "just in time" paradigm, they are an evil hoarder. Scary. JA


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## BillS

Even if "hoarding" food was illegal there comes a time when you have to do what's necessary to prepare for your own survival. As with all things when you're prepping it's always best to keep a low profile.


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## alwaysready

Jack Aubrey said:


> I just found this, and I think it is very interesting how they illustrate the definition of "hoarding." It comes from USLegal.com.
> 
> "Hoarding is the act of accumulation of assets.Especially goods and money,over and above that needed for immediate use based on fears or expectation of future shortages and higher prices.For example, someone fearing a *GLOBAL COLLAPSE OF THE FINANCIAL SYSTEM* might be inclined to keep bundles of cash or stockpile gold bullion in the closet.Such hoarding, if widely practiced can actually contribute to the anticipated shortages and higher prices."
> 
> So granny was an evil hoarder for putting up mason jars for winter. I mean, winter is an anticipated time of shortage, and she was putting aside for winter something that exceeded her next, immediate meal! Right? A paleolithic hunter -gatherer must have written this, not any Neolithic farmer. So, anybody who is not onboard with the eternal "just in time" paradigm, they are an evil hoarder. Scary. JA


The only Illegal thing is to do nothing and then sit back and watch your family starve. If you use this deffinition anyone with more money than is required to make to their next pay day is hoarding money.


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## Jack Aubrey

alwaysready said:


> The only Illegal thing is to do nothing and then sit back and watch your family starve. If you use this deffinition anyone with more money than is required to make to their next pay day is hoarding money.


EXACTLY! Sounds like a definition Karl Marx ...or a community organizer would come up with ! JA


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## HoppeEL4

I have watched those TLC shows on hoarding...and these people run the range of insane, mentally ill, dementia, selfish (narcissistic?), and down to just depressed or lonely...for some, they just like their junk.

For those who like their junk and they are not a danger to themselves, they should be left alone. 

We have become such a nosey, know it all better than you society and we have such a problem staying the heck out of each others business that even people who are actually just stocking up, we have to get into their lives and label them or seek help for them. If its not that then the government wants to push this busybody societal problem by making others believe there is something wrong with people who are thinking ahead. 

We all know there was a time, up until the Depression, that people always planned ahead, most people farmed to some degree and always canned and preserve all that they had grown for the coming year. That was life, survival, why has this suddenly become hoarding?


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## LincTex

HoppeEL4 said:


> We all know there was a time, up until the Depression, that people always planned ahead, most people farmed to some degree and always canned and preserve all that they had grown for the coming year. That was life, survival, why has this suddenly become hoarding?


Because society has changed VERY slowly over time, and the actions of others look "weird" now when it was normal only 30 years ago.

.... and if you aren't trusting the "modern society system" of food distribution then you obviously must be very untrusting about "other areas of society"... ?!?!?


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## HarleyRider

I am not stockpiling.... I'm just adding to my collection of various types of organic and non-organic food items to make sure I have a complete set. It's similar to adding a 1942 copper penny to my penny collection to make it complete.


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## HoppeEL4

LincTex, thats the sad part of it all. You must be paranoid and delusional if you want to be sure you have food stocked up so in case of an emergency your family will be self-sufficient...

Seems now the PC thing to do is to be totally dependent one the government and not question their assessment of people like ourselves. True free thinking Americans would never think twice about whay you and I believe in doing, in fact they would be doing it themselves.

I guess I am paranoid and delusional then..I cannot trust a government to take care of me and mine that has gotten us into $15 trillion, give or take, in debt. I cannot trust a government that has labeled veterans who once served them, and gun owners as potential home grown terrorists...Yet still shake hands with leaders of nations that harbor such hatred of us and our way of life and our beliefs.


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## UncleJoe

Here's a book that deals with hoarding laws. It is on PamsPride's free kindle downloads today.

The Truth About Federal Anti-Hoarding Laws (Politics and Current Events)
http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/search.php?searchid=363834

You can find the book description here.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007J4KH4O...http://pamspriderecommendations.blogspot.com/


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## LincTex

UncleJoe said:


> Here's a book that deals with hoarding laws.
> 
> The Truth About Federal Anti-Hoarding Laws (Politics and Current Events)


What is the "cliff's notes" version?


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## kejmack

Kay Granger R-TX had the information in her constituent newsletter. She has tried to sound the alarm, but no one seems to be listening.


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## LincTex

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=58936


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## Meerkat

LincTex said:


> http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=58936


 Busy bunch ,huh? This is what man worship will get you.
Read Agenda 21 and sustainable living.
Nothing last forever,especially empires.


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## Meerkat

HoppeEL4 said:


> LincTex, thats the sad part of it all. You must be paranoid and delusional if you want to be sure you have food stocked up so in case of an emergency your family will be self-sufficient...
> 
> Seems now the PC thing to do is to be totally dependent one the government and not question their assessment of people like ourselves. True free thinking Americans would never think twice about whay you and I believe in doing, in fact they would be doing it themselves.
> 
> I guess I am paranoid and delusional then..I cannot trust a government to take care of me and mine that has gotten us into $15 trillion, give or take, in debt. I cannot trust a government that has labeled veterans who once served them, and gun owners as potential home grown terrorists...Yet still shake hands with leaders of nations that harbor such hatred of us and our way of life and our beliefs.


 Most won't hear this.When the truth is too terrible to handle many will beleive whatever lie that makes them feel better.


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## HoppeEL4

So far I have not read any official documents that clearly outline anything saying one cannot perosnally stock up. There are statements about farms on the JFK info just posted, but my assumption of that was more about making sure the farmers had access to needed supplies and funding in order to grow more.

However, I know I have yet to read it all, and would love to see more from the newsletter from Kay Granger, if you can post a link.


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## HoppeEL4

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...order-national-defense-resources-preparedness

Maybe this is what we are looking for? There is one statement in there that does bother me: 
(1) the Secretary of Agriculture with respect to food resources, food resource facilities, livestock resources, veterinary resources, plant health resources, and the domestic distribution of farm equipment and commercial fertilizer;

(2) the Secretary of Energy with respect to all forms of energy;

(3) the Secretary of Health and Human Services with respect to health resources;

(4) the Secretary of Transportation with respect to all forms of civil transportation;

*(5) the Secretary of Defense with respect to water resources; and*

(6) the Secretary of Commerce with respect to all other materials, services, and facilities, including construction materials.

(b) The Secretary of each agency delegated authority under subsection (a) of this section (resource departments)* shall plan for and issue regulations to prioritize and allocate resources and establish standards and procedures by which the authority shall be used to promote the national defense, under both emergency and non-emergency conditions*. Each Secretary shall authorize the heads of other agencies, as appropriate, to place priority ratings on contracts and orders for materials, services, and facilities needed in support of programs approved under section 202 of this order.

This can be an issue as far as I can see. this would mean to me, that they can have complete control over the water supplies not in just true emergency situations, but in other times as well. This gives them a pass to call any situation important enough to control water, a crucial element in many states.


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## invision

That is interesting, I wonder if that is because the Army Corp of Engineers control water flow at most reservoirs??


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## HoppeEL4

I am only glad I live where I do now, thinking that there are so many water sources they could not possibly stop people from taking what they needed, but in drier states this could become a problem. Also is an issue where cities, counties or states have begun to try to control people saving rain water on their own property.


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## LincTex

HoppeEL4 said:


> I am only glad I live where I do now, thinking that there are so many water sources they could not possibly stop people from taking what they needed.


SERIOUSLY? You live in Oregon... they throw people in *JAIL* in Oregon for saving rainwater!!!

Man Gets 30 Days in Jail for Collecting Rainwater
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/12/tagblogsfindlawcom2012-blotter-idUS260125035420120812
Gary Harrington will be spending the next 30 days in jail for collecting rainwater and snow runoff on his property.


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## Londoner

everybody stock piles food otherwise we would be buying one day at a time. In some parts of Europe thats what people actually do more or less.Probably in places like Manhatten NY the same

But the likes of Costco prove the point. We all do it, its all about how much


actually, here in London collecting rainwater is illegal too. The local water authority owns all the water in their area. Even the water in the the engine of your car. Even the bottle of water on the dash of your car that you bought two hundred miles upcountry on a trip. So maybe Oregon is not that weird. Nobody P***es in this town unless they pay the water tax which includes sewage .


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## HoppeEL4

LincTex, this is one weird case. I read something on it and there were some definite discrepencies in the way the truth has been reported. I know plenty of people who collect rainwater and also have small runoff ponds they water gardens with, no one gets in trouble. What I believe was happening with this guy was he was blocking up a creek, which is considered a navigable waterway and it is by law in Oregon, public property (it usually runs into a larger body of water which makes up part of an entire watershed).

The law was originally meant to keep landowners from upstream of someone elses property from blocking needed surface water. Many farmers and ranchers would need access to surface water for livestock and irrigation, and if the property owner upstream from you felt so inclined to block it up and keep it for himself because it ran through his property first, then he could. This law was then put in place to keep that from happening and also to protect our waterways from limited access as was the case in many states.

I believe the local news stated that he had been blocking a significant creek to keep water on his property, which is something ALL Oregonians have known for a lifetime is against the law, nothing new and nothing that is linked with any New Age Order group or agendas, it has a localized purpose.


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## Meerkat

Who privitized water anyway?Nobody should be able to sell water.Most of it is'nt even sold by American co.s.Swiss owns lots of our water,Nestles.CocaCola owns the rest.Sad state the swiss are in now of course who am I to talk.


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## Londoner

When we get water shortages here in London which we do most years, you can't wash your car or water your lawn.


----------



## HoppeEL4

Meerkat, this is where things get irritating on this water issue. Up north in Oregon where I live, is the Columbia River Gorge. In the gorge (which is the Cascade Mountains split apart by the Columbia River between Washington and Oregon), are numerous springs from large aquifers.

Nestle wanted to come in and tap into one of these springs to bottle it and sell it. They say it will bring jobs to one of the communities up there, and htis community is convinced they will get a lot from it, but, if someone here cannot dam up a creek on their property, then why would our government then turn around and consider allowing a for profit business to come dam up a fully usable drinking water source, which is supposed to be for all people here, and this company profit and take it away from the public, then sell it to us later on....? What the_____?


----------



## LincTex

HoppeEL4 said:


> Nestle wanted to come in and tap into one of these springs


Nestle has completely destroyed some of the best springs in this country!


----------



## genius

*food hoarding*



UncleJoe said:


> This story often comes up when the subject of hoarding is discussed. The laws that applied then have never been removed from the books.
> 
> http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=940CEEDD1238EE32A25753C3A9639C946996D6CF


Let me state despite a forty percent drop in crops in 2011 Obama's administration sent millions of tons of American food to China. Even in 2012 when the Agricultural departments and USDA knew about the drought. Even when he signed the Executive order in March 2012 millions of tons of food was still sent to Mexico, Europe, China, even after March 2012.

I think any administration that chooses to send our food overseas has no right to suggest we empty our larders when they emptied the larder of the USA. Shame on them. Disgusting and unconsciounable.


----------



## Londoner

genius said:


> Let me state despite a forty percent drop in crops in 2011 Obama's administration sent millions of tons of American food to China. Even in 2012 when the Agricultural departments and USDA knew about the drought. Even when he signed the Executive order in March 2012 millions of tons of food was still sent to Mexico, Europe, China, even after March 2012.
> 
> I think any administration that chooses to send our food overseas has no right to suggest we empty our larders when they emptied the larder of the USA. Shame on them. Disgusting and unconsciounable.


Thats not such a bad idea, if you feed them where they are they stay where they are. Mass migration is a huge threat to a stable society. Its all too easy for people to move around these days. Europe has a massive threat from Africa and the middle east in this respect.

Its economic osmosis, people move from the poorer parts of the world towards the richer parts.


----------



## HoppeEL4

Londoner, how does a place like London have water shortages? Is it because of population? I guess I have this image of a rainy place and so cannot imagine a water shortage.

Though, you also have to keep in mind I have always lived in one of the U.S.' lesser populated states, in the region of this state that I am in, near the Cascade mountains, can be up to 1,000 inches in snowfall, and lower elevations will not get the snow but the rain. We have aquifers around all the mountains here that are 100% untapped and it is hard to imagine never having water, that is unless I hear of somewhere like Arizona.

I also see by reading up on it, Londons population is somewhere between 12-14 million in a 13,466 square mile area...Oregons total population is 3,871,859 in a 95,988 square mile area....wow, that's a lot of people crammed in over there, could explain the water issues.

I hear of populations like this and see where things could go bad awful fast. I do think over here I feel very buffered from that all and also think this is why people here seem to be less concerned with the issues that could come up associated with dense populated areas, something I know we will not likely experience in the way you could.


----------



## LincTex

HoppeEL4 said:


> I also see by reading up on it, Londons population is somewhere between 12-14 million in a 13,466 square mile area....


I think you meant to say all of England... 
London is a city that is not 13466 sq miles.


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## Londoner

LincTex said:


> I think you meant to say all of England...
> London is a city that is not 13466 sq miles.


No Britain's population is 60 million and thats only the ones that they know about, plenty that they don't.
London is usually said to be around eight million in population and as I say when describing its size around 30-40 miles across from one administration boundary to the other which gives roughly a thousand sq miles

But yes its huge when you compare it to US cities and has been said before when things go wrong they go badly wrong and very quickly.

Cut the food supply to a city like this and in three days you have total meltdown. Cast your mind back a year to the london riots. Do you remember seeing a whole city block burning? Cops shoot a gang member and probable drug dealer in Tottenham north london. This leads to disturbances locally. However because of facebook and twitter the disturbances went viral right across the city so fast the cops were massively outnumbered.

Mindless looting and torching right across the city before they could bring in enough cops to regain order. When it was all over and the cases started going to court most of the people caught were just kids from mostly good home OUT FOR A BIT OF FUN!!!

Imagine what they would have been like if they were hungry. Even worse, what would they be like if they were flat out desperate? You wouldn't stand a chance.


----------



## Bobbb

I would think that a problem for Londoner and those like him who live in city centers is that real estate costs a lot and you get little space for what you pay, meaning that one has to use expensive real estate for storage and that's not really an efficient use of space.

I can't remember which episode of Doomsday Preppers showed a lady who was shoving food into every nook and cranny in her place, peeling off the molding around her door, filling the space with food, and then putting the molding back on, but I imagine that her solution is the one that would make the most sense for small expensive places in big cities - don't use usable space for storage, use unusable space instead.


----------



## HoppeEL4

Londoner, I do not envy your position within a huge city population. Not at all. I even have a hard time imagining living within Portlands city limits in Oregon (I live far outside, I show Portland as my nearest city for reference...and privacy).

As for having to cram food into every crevice, I think the show you were talking about was the preppers show and the woman was doing this to hide the preps from her non-prepping husband? I think this was her reason. However, thinking back to it, there was probably another that did this too due to a tiny space as well.


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## LincTex

Londoner said:


> No Britain's population is 60 million


You actually were not reading my post taking into context previously supplied information, but that's OK. I know how large England is and how large London is, both in area and population.


----------



## sofasurfer

Its not illegal yet. But if the U.N. gets their way it will be. Go on the U.N. website and read "Agenda 21". All kinds of wacko crap on there.


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## Resto

sofasurfer said:


> Its not illegal yet. But if the U.N. gets their way it will be. Go on the U.N. website and read "Agenda 21". All kinds of wacko crap on there.


Yup....it aint now but it poly will be. I think that if there are food shortages the fed wont just go after Guns but also food. Anybody remember what civilian life here was like during WWII? It was a crime to buy or have ration tickets you werent issued for gas and other things. The fed comendeered cruise ships for troop transport. Use your imagination they are forceing the Catholic Church to do things against thier faith useing Obamacare. My sister, who is Catholic(Die Hard) sent me an E Mail with an attachment from the Catholic Church with Videos about it, Real anti obamacare with dramatic videos worthy of Hollywood, almost directly ordering them to vote for Money, I mean Romney. If they will use the law to do that to Catholics, what will they do to us when it comes to food.

Now I sound like a fanatical, parnoid, freak. Like Popeye said "I Yam Watt I Yam".


----------



## Bobbb

Resto said:


> Yup....it aint now but it poly will be. I think that if there are food shortages the fed wont just go after Guns but also food. Anybody remember what civilian life here was like during WWII? It was a crime to buy or have ration tickets you werent issued for gas and other things.


Any time that a market suffers a severe shock in the supply chain there are calls for the government to conjure up some magic and make prices "normal." Governments usually oblige because people are stupid and they need to see the government "Doing Something." As is usually the case, everything gets balled up and a black market springs into existence.



> The fed comendeered cruise ships for troop transport.


This was written into law in exchange for special tax rates - cruise liner companies got the benefit of a sweetheart deal and then, years later war broke out and they had to live up to their end of the bargain. The same happened during the Falkland Islands War.



> Use your imagination they are forceing the Catholic Church to do things against thier faith useing Obamacare. My sister, who is Catholic(Die Hard) sent me an E Mail with an attachment from the Catholic Church with Videos about it, Real anti obamacare with dramatic videos worthy of Hollywood, almost directly ordering them to vote for Money, I mean Romney. If they will use the law to do that to Catholics, what will they do to us when it comes to food.


I have absolutely no sympathy for the Catholic Church, and its followers, on this question. The Catholic hierarchy and the parishioners are some of the strongest advocates of "social justice" and are always urging the government to extend its mission and to extend it's wealth redistribution activities.

Liberty is liberty. The fact that Catholics want religious liberty but are happy to urge the government to threaten my economic and political liberty doesn't sit well with me. Religion is not something special, it's simply a form of philosophy. If they want everyone to respect their religious liberty then they should in turn respect other people's liberty on other issues. Catholics should do their own thing and not lend their weight to government and thus have an army of ready allies at their side when their liberty is threatened by powerful government.


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## BillM

*Freedom of religion*



Bobbb said:


> Any time that a market suffers a severe shock in the supply chain there are calls for the government to conjure up some magic and make prices "normal." Governments usually oblige because people are stupid and they need to see the government "Doing Something." As is usually the case, everything gets balled up and a black market springs into existence.
> 
> This was written into law in exchange for special tax rates - cruise liner companies got the benefit of a sweetheart deal and then, years later war broke out and they had to live up to their end of the bargain. The same happened during the Falkland Islands War.
> 
> I have absolutely no sympathy for the Catholic Church, and its followers, on this question. The Catholic hierarchy and the parishioners are some of the strongest advocates of "social justice" and are always urging the government to extend its mission and to extend it's wealth redistribution activities.
> 
> Liberty is liberty. The fact that Catholics want religious liberty but are happy to urge the government to threaten my economic and political liberty doesn't sit well with me. Religion is not something special, it's simply a form of philosophy. If they want everyone to respect their religious liberty then they should in turn respect other people's liberty on other issues. Catholics should do their own thing and not lend their weight to government and thus have an army of ready allies at their side when their liberty is threatened by powerful government.


The first admendment protects any religions right to advocate and petition government . The same right is extended to unions and other special intrest groups. I am not Catholic but I recognize their rights in this respect. The first amendment garentees freedom of religion and freedom from religion.


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## sofasurfer

If you are concerned then support www.cspoa.org. The only possible hope we have against the feds is organization of the people and backing by local county sheriffs. The county sheriff is the one and only authority higher than the federal government. The trouble is that they need to be educated to this fact. Do your part...
http://www.facebook.com/groups/Thecspoa/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/SheriffMacksConstitutionalPosse/


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## Davarm

BillM said:


> The first amendment garentees freedom of religion and freedom from religion.


Dont think the first amendment originally guaranteed either, the progressives have decided thats what it says and it seems to have taken root. The amendment was intended to prevent the establishment of a "National Religion", not freedom "Of or From".


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## Full_Monte

My eyes are going bleary just trying to catch up on this thread. I may have missed a post or three, but IMHO stockpiling food is good for everyone because it removes you and your family from the soup lines that will form, leaving more for the people who use those soup lines. It's also good for the economy because it helps business. As far as taking food away from others, I don't think that's a valid point, as the grocery store will just re-stock with more the next time it orders, and the farmers are (eventually) asked to produce more because of your purchase. During "normal" times, you are not depriving anyone from anything by stocking up.


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## LincTex

Full_Monte said:


> IMHO stockpiling food is good for everyone because it removes you and your family from the soup lines that will form, leaving more for the people who use those soup lines. It's also good for the economy because it helps business.


All my canned goods that are "older" go to the food bank. Nothing gets wasted.


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## HoppeEL4

Full_Monte, I agree, no one is getting hurt by us stocking our pantries...All Americans would be better off if they were to learn to stock up, cook at home, eat out less and not be a burden to our society going to state or local for help every couple of weeks because they cannot manage their food budget. Furthermore they would find themselves in a better position in tough times when there will be no more food banks or churches to help them (all will get tapped out or government would redistribute since they get federal commodities).

Do it while you can is something I adhere to.


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## swilgus

*stock piling*



neil-v1 said:


> Well the man I was speaking to is really old.......I mean he is ancient. Maybe he is confused or thinks it is 1940???? I just wanted to ask to find out because plans would have to be made to keep even more out of sight.


THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS TO KEEP YOUR MOUTH shut! Don't tell anyone outside a REAL need to know. The NDAA allows Gov't to break in to house and steal YOUR items ostensibly for "the greater good"!

SO, be wise and silent as a ghost: downplay in cpnversations the "frear" and your efforts or someone will turen you in for a cut of the prize. Don't believe me? well good luck to you and family then as we have seen this before. WWII gold was illegal to own. GOLD ILLEGAL? WTAF! so there you go...


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## grizz3000

I buy whatever I want and how much I want. I don't care how many will be left on the shelf. So if there is only one on the shelf I shouldn't buy it because some Socialist punk might come by and get angry with me that someone else may need it? It's my money. Who is going to tell me how much I can and/or cannot buy? No, storing food/supplies is NOT illegal. Some may get jealous (if they find out) but who cares. Tell them to store their own stuff or become a zombie like all the Socialists and Libtards will be.


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## jsriley5

Lolajack said:


> There is no law that I've heard of that "they" can take what you've stockpiled. The government doesn't have the resources to check every house in every neighborhood in every town. I'd be more afraid of the average unprepared person. Really, this needs to be kept in the proper perspective.


"THEY" don't have to have enough people on the payroll to do it now. If things get tight they will have plenty of "community organizers" to step forward under color of whatever laws they make up to suit themselves. And they can and very likely WILL go house to house, or at the very least anyhouses that get on their suspicious list. That average unprepared person will be in the gang acting under whatever has been made up to give them permission to steal what you worked hard to put away. I wish I was better set up to conceal what I have and I will be when we move that is a promise to myself.


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## Indiana_Jones

swilgus hit the nail on the head in post #296. We all must keep our big mouths shut. There is a lot of truth in the old saying "loose tongues sink ships". Especially when it comes to fire arms. There must be a million posts on the web about all the guns and ammo people love to brag about. They are all fools.


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## Viking

Indiana_Jones said:


> swilgus hit the nail on the head in post #296. We all must keep our big mouths shut. There is a lot of truth in the old saying "loose tongues sink ships". Especially when it comes to fire arms. There must be a million posts on the web about all the guns and ammo people love to brag about. They are all fools.


Yes and once the message is posted it's out there forever, you can't just delete it because once it's posted it becomes the property of the website. At that point it probably could be deleted but probably for a price.


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## lotsoflead

not unless dying of starvation is legal


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## gabbyj310

Just in case "they" put marshal law in order.Let "them" see a little and have the rest of your stores put out of sight just in case.Out of sight out of mind(that goes for your guns and ammo too for sure)Let them find one and have evrything else well hidden...


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## monkeywarrior

Bigdog57 said:


> Nope, best to take your place in line, get your case of Red Cross water and case of MRE's and return home. And as the 'emergency' goes on, lose some weight, don't shave so close, adapt the same haggard look as every other sheeple, and wear clothes a size or two too big......
> 
> "Baaaaaahhhh, woe is me! I'm a sheep. Baaaa....."
> 
> Blend with the herd - less chance of getting 'fleeced'. I'd even wear an obama pin if it makes the Jackboots look the other way.


Yep. A well known Japanese proverb - The nail that sticks out, gets hammered.


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## Woody

Nice, I have never hear that proverb.


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## dave_fuches

i like monkeywarriors ideas....blend with the herd.

and no, stockpiling anything at all is perfectly legal. i've done much research into the legality of burying stuff; food, guns, radios etc and that's another rumor floating around. hoarding and burying are both perfectly legal (for now)


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## HoppeEL4

I also think blending in and not looking like you have anything is the way to go. We live in a modest little two bedroom ranch home, very humble looking (meaning the landlord has not updated it and it needs some work). No big outbuildings, no garage to speak of (it was split in half to make a third illegal room and laundry room), simple landscaping, one beat up van in the front, and with as many break in as this area has seen by meth heads stealing tools and metal yard stuff (for money I presume), we have not been bothered a bit. It's working now and I am sure it will work later in a SHTF time (though I am planning to arm myself in the future anyways).

Even if stock piling was illegal, too bad, I would still do it. Even the little bit we have compared to others, helped us get through a little slump, and it spared us going without, so I will keep doing it and building up my stock.


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## readytogo

Is Illegal in Cuba folks ,oh I take it back there`s non to talk about. But all joking aside just don`t flaunt your food buying nor tell anybody what your doing, keep your mouth shut so the flies don`t come in my father used to said. In my neighborhood no one knows that I prepared ,they know something is up when the power is out and I`m baking bread or cookies or roasting meat, so live on and forget the World. :cheers:


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## mrlilley35

*Stockpliling food*



horseman09 said:


> Neil, I think someone is pulling your leg.


according to congress stockpiling more than a weeks worth of food you can be considered a terrorist ridiculous:sssh:


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## Tirediron

How f*ckin' stupid is congress, not everybody lives that close to a store. 
No wonder the US of A is in trouble:factor10:


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## AdmiralD7S

mrlilley35 said:


> according to congress stockpiling more than a weeks worth of food you can be considered a terrorist ridiculous:sssh:


Source for this?


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## Moose33

Not sure about Congress but the FBI says if you make bulk purchases of MREs you might be a terrorist. Sorry I can't post a link but it might come up if you google Communities Against Terrorism. 

This presumes the FBI actually published the list. These days who knows what's real.


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## sofasurfer

Read your constitution. Anything you can do, you have the right to do it, as long as it does not infringe on another persons rights.


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## LincTex

AdmiralD7S said:


> Source for this?


Do a google search for: " laws against stockpiling food " and the first web site that comes up is this:

Storing more than seven days of food makes you a suspected Terrorist:*UPDATE*
December 1, 2011 - bunkerville

http://bunkerville.wordpress.com/20...days-of-food-makes-you-a-suspected-terrorist/

Senator Carl Levin (D-Mich.) told Congress recently that under the original wording of the National Defense Authorization Act, American citizens were excluded from the provision that allowed for detention. Once Obama's officials saw the text though, says Levin, "the administration asked us to remove the language which says that US citizens and lawful residents would not be subject to this section."

http://bunkerville.wordpress.com/20...u-s-citizens-without-due-process-re-instated/

UPDATE, December 15, 2011 UPDATE 2: Senate passes final bill, goes to President

For the Vote Breakdown of Senate Vote Final: Gov Track Story below the votes.

The National Defense Authorization Act and its controversial provisions regarding detention of terror suspects passed the House of Representatives Wednesday night, 283-136.

The measure split Democrats right down the middle, with 93 voting in favor and 93 against legislation that President Barack Obama tactily endorsed earlier in the day by retreating from a veto threat. There was opposition from Tea Party faithful and other conservative GOP members, 43 of whom opposed the legislation. (A full roll call is posted at the link below): This is the vote taken December 14,2011.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=h2011- T32

Measure Number: 
S. 1867 (National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 )
Measure Title: 
An original bill to authorize appropriations for fiscal year 2012 for military activities of the Department of Defense, for military construction, and for defense activities of the Department of Energy, to prescribe military personnel strengths for such fiscal year, and for other purposes.
Vote Counts:
YEAs 93 ... NAYs 7


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## LincTex

http://www.disastercenter.com/laworder/12919.htm

On your computer, hit CTRL F and type in "food" and you can search that U.S. Dept of Ag has authority over all food, farming, farm equipment, and food facilities in the event of an emergency.


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## unbill

If it is on a shelf in a public store for sale and no customer limit is posted by
it then you can buy all you want. If they have a problem with that to bad.


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## hiwall

What ever you have the government can take. In times of emergency their powers are absolute. Even now they could arrest you for drug charges and confiscate everything you own and sell it or use themselves. And when your case goes to trial and you walk out a free man after spending maybe six months or more in jail, you would have no possessions and no money. You could request compensation for all your stuff they took but not likely you would get any.


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## LincTex

hiwall said:


> And when your case goes to trial and you walk out a free man after spending maybe six months or more in jail, you would have no possessions and no money. You could request compensation for all your stuff they took but not likely you would get any.


.....and being $$$$$$ in debt to your attorney for defending yourself against a crime you didn't commit.


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## unbill

Since when did this country have a government? Must have missed it. Anybody
coming for my food will pay a dear price like the sign says there isnt anything in
hear worth your life.


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## dave_fuches

anyone looking for my food, weapons or survival gear is gonna have a tough time finding it. bury it folks; no one can take away what they cannot find.


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## marlas1too

what you have in your house to survive is your own dang business


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## Cheryl_Miller

hey everyone i'm cheryl and i'm new but i just gotta say that this is a prime example of how monumentally stupid our government has become. 7 days of food?! even non preppers have 7 days of food in their cupboards, any decent pothead would have a weeks worth of doritos.

if this law is true, then it's obviously been passed specifically to demonize preppers. does this make sense to anyone else or am i reading too much into it?


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## Geek999

Why do you think they need a law? They don't seem to need a law to tap our phones or read our email.


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## LincTex

Cheryl_Miller said:


> Does this make sense to anyone else or am i reading too much into it?


Just make sure you have enough stashed in a safe place, and carry on with life as usual.... just don't blab to anyone about it


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## hiwall

> just don't blab to anyone about it


Ah...too late.


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## BillM

*Profiling*

There are all kinds of profiles but there is no statute law against stockpiling food.

If marital law is declared , the government will make it up as they go.


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## HamiltonFelix

We've all talked about OpSec from time to time, but in this day and age, privacy is virtually non-existant. Every purchase is monitored. Use cash when you can, but still, there are very few secrets these days. And all of us are on "lists."

Here's what's happening elsewhere, and one may assume it's coming here:

http://freedomoutpost.com/2013/10/p...ready-detaining-hoarders/#gBMDeAOmOcJelUiE.99


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## LincTex

HamiltonFelix said:


> Here's what's happening elsewhere, and one may assume it's coming here:
> 
> http://freedomoutpost.com/2013/10/p...ready-detaining-hoarders/#gBMDeAOmOcJelUiE.99


But.... it's *Venezuela*
I think the bigger issue is simply supply and demand. Their Hugo Chavez influenced economy sucks so bad it's not the fault of the hoarders, its the fault of the supply chain.

WE (in the USA) still have an ample supply.... *BUT* if that changes and bare shelves become the "norm" then you will most certainly see new "hoarding" laws get passed (or WWII-type rationing coupons)


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## HamiltonFelix

Due to the couterproductive, politically motivated "biofuel" subsidies and regulations, we no longer have grain reserves. Farmers follow the money and grow fuel crops instead of food crops. America is one good crop failure away from famine. In that case, I do believe Big Brother would "seize excess food stocks for fair and equitable redistribution." If we think the cops disarming innocents in New Orleans was bad, just wait. 

We have only to look at Bosnia, Argentina, Venezuela and others to get an idea what our coming currency collapse will be like. 

It may not be illegal to have a whole lot of stored food, but the moment supplies get short and they declare "emergency," they will declare "hoarding" to be illegal and "hoarders" to be enemies of society.


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## Geek999

LincTex said:


> But.... it's *Venezuela*
> I think the bigger issue is simply supply and demand. Their Hugo Chavez influenced economy sucks so bad it's not the fault of the hoarders, its the fault of the supply chain.
> 
> WE (in the USA) still have an ample supply.... *BUT* if that changes and bare shelves become the "norm" then you will most certainly see new "hoarding" laws get passed (or WWII-type rationing coupons)


Venzuela has price controls, which we now have on health care. Extend that concept to other "vital" sectors like food, energy, etc. and we can make Venezuela look good.


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## catdog6949

*I'm sorry, but some are wrong........*

I do not mean too hurt anyone's feelings or wish to upset anyone in particular, but. We live in a Society of Buyer's!!! What I mean by that is food is grown, products are manufactured, too be SOLD!!!

Everyone Alive, is part of the "Symbyotic", Society in which We All Live In. That is the very "Principal" our "Economy" functions on! So the More We Buy the More our GOP Increases! The better the Economy does.

So No there is No Law against "Prepping" for a Rainy Day or Week, Or whatever. Several Religion's in our country have Prepping as part of their teaching's!

Now with that said........Yes the Goverment, Federal, or Local, could sieze your supplies, in case of a disaster or time of war! But they would have too know that you have them?

One thing I really hate, is when some people call, Prepping or Stock Piling, "Hoarding" They are not even the same thing!

Cat and Turtle :brickwall:


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## HamiltonFelix

No they are not, but you understand propaganda. When it comes time to seize from the prepared, they will be demonized as evil hoarders, gestapo raids on them shown to the masses as being for the public good.


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