# Building permits for survival retreats???



## survivalboy12895

I got to thinking today."Should people use building permits when building there survival reatreat?".As much as I stress building to code,I think that a survival retreat is an exeption.One of the main things of a survival retreat,is keeping it private.But by filing building permits with your county and state just makes it about as ""Here I am Feds,come and look at all this gear that will help you in a disaster!!" as you can get.Imagine this.Theres a global collapse,but the Feds are going around looking for food,water,survival gear,etc to "" Help people out"" in this time of need.Well if everyone filed there building permits,then all the Feds have to do is go to the city hall and or state department,and look for those "Hunting cabins" and "Vacation homes" and also........"Survival retreats".Even if you go to the great pains of concealment and security for your retreat,the Feds will still find you with the aid of(you guessed it)the building permits that you filed with the county and state.What are your thoughts on this???


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## mosquitomountainman

If you live where building permits are required you'll need to be careful about bucking the system. That might bring down more grief than it's worth. Around here the tax assessor makes annual visits to even vacant property to look things over. If there's a building on it that's not on the tax evaluation they will start asking questions.

If bldg. permits are required I would never list the construction as a survival retreat, fallout shelter, blast shelter, etc. It would be a root cellar or underground home or simplly a house with a basement. If they ask why it has such thick walls or safe rooms just tell them it's for tornado protection, storing valuables in case of fire/theft or whatever. 

One might also just have contractors do what is required by law and finish air filtration systems, etc. on your own.


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## HozayBuck

I'm a firm believer in the old saying that is easier to get forgiveness the permission , If you have a place that's out of sight and your able to build it yourself then that's what I'd do.

But I would forgo things like insurance, grid power etc, anything that leaves a trail to your door. 

What's the worst they can do? fine you? they can't make you tear it down or so I think, I'd simply refuse and let them take me to court, it only takes one person on a jury to agree with you and it's a hung jury and I doubt the PTB will think it's worth the bother. But that's just me...

This land was founded by people who went out with an ax and a shovel and built a nation, all without building inspectors and work comp and insurance company's , I figure if I can build it with my own hands and it provides shelter and no bank involved or insurance company's involved to whine about codes, who's loss is it if it falls down on my head? 

Building codes for a chicken house are just another tax, and half the time the inspectors don't know squat, their only qualification is being kin the somebody....I used to be a contractor, can you tell? 

Of course this is assuming your out in the boonies, if your in town you may have to play the game... If I was going to cut thru my garage floor and dig it out part ways for whatever reason, I'd just do it and not say a word to anybody, the less you talk, the less they know...


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## pdx210

IF you plan on possibly selling in the future then yes for homes if not no and small out buildings like a root cellar or bomb shelter can be hidden so NO particularly in the country 


In an urban area YES to all the above all they need to do is have a neighbor report you or happen to drive by. In my town building inspectors look for active construction sites as they drive to and from inspections when they see one the check to see if permits have been pulled thats how they find most violators


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## NaeKid

As for building permits - I believe that if the structure is considered permanent, it requires a permit. Meaning, if you purchased a shed-package and dropped it on the ground (no significant digging and no poured concrete) it would be considered temporary. If that same shed package has a concrete-pad under it, it would then be considered permanent.

Another great option would be to purchase the biggest bus you can find, gut it out and turn it into a mobile-home (pull the engine, etc) and tow it to your location, drop it on your land and call it done.

As long as the shelter looks like it is easily moved, they cannot request a building permit to be filed.


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## mosquitomountainman

pdx210 said:


> IF you plan on possibly selling in the future then yes for homes if not no and small out buildings like a root cellar or bomb shelter can be hidden so NO particularly in the country ...


In Flathead County in particular they can get pretty cranky about such things. All it takes is an angry neighbor, "friend" or ex-wife/girlfriend/husband/boyfriend etc. and you're suddenly in the spotlight, perhaps in a very big way if the gov't is making an issue of illegal construction activities (and I've seen that happen).

Our last tax assessment included a Google Earth photo of our property showing every item on the place and a description of how we were being taxed on them. (The assesor filled in details that were not on the photo.)

Unless you're dealing with crooks in the government, getting a permit isn't a big deal. Most are concerned more with property boundary violations, taxes and septic installation than anything else.

The best thing is to find a place where there are no county or state building codes/permits. Where we live (NOT in Flathead County!) county building permits are minimal and are concerned with only septic systems. (Unless you're subdividing or in a subdivision.) That's one of the reasons we purchased land here.

Believe me, I've had my problems with bureacratic red tape before but if it's not putting you directly at risk or costing an exhorbitant amount it's usually best to do things legally and not have to watch over your shoulder all the time.

Like I said earlier... don't label structures as anything related to survival or preparedness.


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## sailaway

When I build it will be off the grid, in the boonies and as permit free as possible.


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## Vertigo

sailaway said:


> When I build it will be off the grid, in the boonies and as permit free as possible.


On a boat? 

V.


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## kaadd6

The best way that I've found to get around permits is non-permanent structures. Structures that are not secured to the ground, aren't taxed in most states and therefore don't need a permit.

Placing cabins or shed etc... on skids makes them non-permanent structures.

edit: lol wow this was an old thread. Didn't even notice until I had already posted.


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## Meerkat

HozayBuck said:


> I'm a firm believer in the old saying that is easier to get forgiveness the permission , If you have a place that's out of sight and your able to build it yourself then that's what I'd do.
> 
> But I would forgo things like insurance, grid power etc, anything that leaves a trail to your door.
> 
> What's the worst they can do? fine you? they can't make you tear it down or so I think, I'd simply refuse and let them take me to court, it only takes one person on a jury to agree with you and it's a hung jury and I doubt the PTB will think it's worth the bother. But that's just me...
> 
> This land was founded by people who went out with an ax and a shovel and built a nation, all without building inspectors and work comp and insurance company's , I figure if I can build it with my own hands and it provides shelter and no bank involved or insurance company's involved to whine about codes, who's loss is it if it falls down on my head?
> 
> Building codes for a chicken house are just another tax, and half the time the inspectors don't know squat, their only qualification is being kin the somebody....I used to be a contractor, can you tell?
> 
> Of course this is assuming your out in the boonies, if your in town you may have to play the game... If I was going to cut thru my garage floor and dig it out part ways for whatever reason, I'd just do it and not say a word to anybody, the less you talk, the less they know...


 They can make you tear it down and in many cases will.

Last I heard about 8 years ago is if its under $600 you don't need a permit,but things change.

Dig a hole and store it there in containers.Thats what we did the year we had 5 hurricanes.


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## Meerkat

kaadd6 said:


> The best way that I've found to get around permits is non-permanent structures. Structures that are not secured to the ground, aren't taxed in most states and therefore don't need a permit.
> 
> Placing cabins or shed etc... on skids makes them non-permanent structures.
> 
> edit: lol wow this was an old thread. Didn't even notice until I had already posted.


 LOL me either!oops:


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## weedygarden

HozayBuck said:


> I'm a firm believer in the old saying that is easier to get forgiveness the permission , If you have a place that's out of sight and your able to build it yourself then that's what I'd do.
> 
> But I would forgo things like insurance, grid power etc, anything that leaves a trail to your door.
> 
> What's the worst they can do? fine you? they can't make you tear it down or so I think
> 
> 
> 
> I have friends in real estate. Someone built a two story garage/office behind their home with no permits. We are talking Denver, Colorado. Guess what, it was finished, being used, and they were required to tear it down. The foundation, framing, wiring, etc. had not been inspected and they couldn't inspect through the drywall, etc.
> 
> When it comes to building and thinking your place can't be seen from the road so now no one knows: guess again. It is satellite images that are being used now. In Florida and other places in the south, people wanted to build swimming pools, but didn't want to pay the taxes on them. They are searching with satellite images now to see who has pools and who doesn't.
> 
> I always thought that I wanted to build without a permit for the same reason. If they don't know I have built something, they can't come and search and raid the place. This is more and more why I think creating something underground is better.
> 
> One of the things I have worked on is creating the vault, the room in the basement where I keep my preps. I think this is faulty also, because if someone gets to the vault, they get it all. If I had a few caches, a raider might not get all of my stuff in one fell swoop.
Click to expand...


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## Jimmy24

We still have lots of counties with no building premit requirements. 

Our county has a restrictive premit process, if the stucture is going to be inhabited. 

My work shop at my retreat needed no premit. It has plumbing, septic tank and electrical. Course it's not inhabited.....

I pay taxes on it and other "out buildings" on the property.

There are ways....

Jimmy


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## Grizz

*Permits ????*

In a few counties in a few states, they do not require any building permits. In alot of cities and counties in Calif, you can build a shed up to 120 sq' without a permit as long as you do not run water or electricity to it. Play it safe and walk in and talk to the people in the building dept. you don't have to give them your name, ask for a copy of their build requirements. Check with your local fire dept. I see building permits come through our dept and when i go out and do fire clearance inspections i have to cout the number of building on the property and if the number is different i have to contact the building dept.
When i retire next may i will be looking for remote property that i can modify after the inspectors are done with my house. then i will sneek in what ever i want. Just saying.


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## backlash

Not getting a permit and getting caught can be expensive.
Here is an article from today's paper.
Short version. They put in a two-car metal carport port 5 years ago and got caught recently.
Final cost was around $6000.

All of these also require a permit.
Hot tubs. Backyard tool sheds of a certain size. Fences, windows and plumbing improvements. Vinyl pools more than 2-feet deep.

Missing permit costs carport owners quadruple | Yakima Herald-Republic


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## lotsoflead

backlash said:


> Not getting a permit and getting caught can be expensive.
> Here is an article from today's paper.
> Short version. They put in a two-car metal carport port 5 years ago and got caught recently.
> Final cost was around $6000.
> 
> All of these also require a permit.
> Hot tubs. Backyard tool sheds of a certain size. Fences, windows and plumbing improvements. Vinyl pools more than 2-feet deep.
> 
> Missing permit costs carport owners quadruple | Yakima Herald-Republic


 I'd say it was time to vote in a new town concil and change the laws, a person should beable to do what they want to on their property without a lot of red tape


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## backlash

With the economy the way it is all the government agencies are looking to generate as much revenue as possible.
The building inspectors have turned to permit verification and ticket writing. 
I have an old shed my dad built years ago and I want to replace it.
The permit to tear it down is $90. The permit to build a new one 15X30 is almost $200. My brothers septic permit 10 years ago was $600.
The county tries to get every dime they can.
My shed is still not replaced.


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## power

backlash said:


> With the economy the way it is all the government agencies are looking to generate as much revenue as possible.
> The building inspectors have turned to permit verification and ticket writing.
> I have an old shed my dad built years ago and I want to replace it.
> The permit to tear it down is $90. The permit to build a new one 15X30 is almost $200. My brothers septic permit 10 years ago was $600.
> The county tries to get every dime they can.
> My shed is still not replaced.


I can remember years ago I was offered a job as city electrical inspector.
Sounded like a good job until they told me how much it paid. They went on to explain how the inspectors made the majority of their pay. They would not be available to inspect during normal work hours, just too busy. If a person needed something expected they would come out after hours or on weekends to do the job. Of course the person needing the inspection had to pay extra for that. That amount came to what ever the inspector thought he could get out of the people and how bad they needed an inspection.


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## MouldyJoe

*Check your county laws*

I just checked the laws for the county I want to build in and if it's less than 200 sq/ft I don't need a permit. It is classified as a shed and must be designed/built as not intended for human occupancy. In my extremely naive knowledge the definition of "human occupancy" is somewhat confusing and vague. Joe


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## Turtle

Anyone remember this story out of England?

Farmer's secret castle must be demolished, court rules | Mail Online

Basically, this farmer was trying to take advantage of an English law that says if one builds a structure without permits and it stands for four years without any complaints, it may stay. He built a Tudor-style _castle_ behind giant bales of hay, left them in place for four years, then revealed the home. The government essentially said that he was concealing the building, so it didn't count, and are making him tear down his beautiful home.


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## sailaway

I wonder if after you pull a permit to build the next step would be for the GPS Co-ordinate police to pull up in fron and get your latitude and lonngitude recorded for the rest of the goobernint agencies in our society. I should think building in a county that didn't require permits would be better.


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## Wags

In most places the tax guy already has the GPS coordinates of every taxable piece of property and with satellite imagery you are going to get caught.

The definition can vary by county as to what constitutes "human occupation". For example, our pole barn can have a kitchen with a stove or a bathroom, but not both. If it has both then it is considered a dwelling, which we are not allowed to have. We had to prove we had decommissioned it before we were given the final occupancy on our house.


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## Turtle

This may very well be one of those things that depend upon the locality, but every building permit that I have ever seen has expressed the intended building site in very general terms, such as, "Impoved structure to be built in the north-west corner of the property located at Whatever Street". Especially if one intended to build on a very large plot of land, I doubt the exact location would be logged very accurately.


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## power

Last year the tax assessor stopped by for a visit. They knocked on my door and wanted to know how long the house had been here. The last time they knew there was a small mobile home here. They wanted to take some measurements to see how to tax it. I told them to help themselves. 
Never heard anything else from them and the taxes haven't changed, yet.


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## Wolf1066

I guess a lot has to do with where you are.

Here in New Zealand one guy built a house by himself without permits and was told to tear it down. He then claimed he had but they noticed (probably due to the suspicious-looking large pile of earth where the house used to be) that he'd merely buried it. He still had to tear it down and paid some very hefty fines.

Hiding stuff has its advantages but also has its own problems and does not always work:

An SPCA worker checking on some dogs spotted that the large dog run was designed to pivot from one corner (marks on the ground) and reported it to the police who then raided the property and discovered that the dog run covered the entrance to two large shipping containers buried on the property - they'd been fitted out with gro-lux lamps and hydroponic beds and there was quite a sizeable "cash crop" in them.

Around here, if anyone suspected you had something hidden on your property, they'd think "drugs" rather than "survival retreat", "safe room" or "bomb shelter" and you'd get an unexpected visit from armed police.

Even if they didn't find drugs, your hidden retreat would get a lot more attention than you'd like...

... and *then *they'd screw you for not having a permit.

I've often thought of the possibilities afforded by the fact that you can get the outer shell of your domicile built and then finish off the interior yourself.

A cunningly contrived blueprint could then be modified by you after all the contractors have gone away and only you really know what the inside of the house looks like and only you know what you've lined the walls with.

If done right, you could probably have a hidden room or two with secret entrances.


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## Biscuit

No Building Codes Needed - A Guide to States with No Building Codes

Most states do have mandatory building codes, but there are still 15 states where the existence of codes is a matter of local jurisdiction. Often it is the larger cities that opt for control of building practice, while the the more rural areas are freer. This is true in Alabama, Arkansas, Hawaii, Michigan, Missouri, North Dakota, South Dakota, and Wyoming.

Some states have just a few counties that have yet to establish code requirements. In Arizona there is only one such county (Greenlee); in California there are three (Mendocino, Humbolt, and Nevada**) that have adopted the liberal "Limited Density Rural Dwellings" program; Colorado has 15 open counties (including Saguache county); Iowa has eight free counties; Mississippi is mostly free, except for coastal areas where wind and flood codes are enforced.

Special cases are Tennessee, which is now in transition from having no codes to having mandatory control, and Texas, which does have state codes, but enforcement seems to be very lax. Of course the situation is always changing, so it behooves anyone planning to move to a code-free region to find out specifically what the situation is there.

The book that provided this information contains a wealth of other related advise and data that is well worth the price of the book, and since it is an e-book it can easily be kept up to date.

** This may have changed. From what I can find, Nevada county now requires building permits.


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## Wags

As revenues drop I expect to see more enforcement and fines for a variety of things, not just building codes. Always best to know the laws and then you can figure out how to walk the line in a matter that will best suit your purposes and keep code enforcers from making you a target.


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## rhrobert

Biscuit said:


> No Building Codes Needed - A Guide to States with No Building Codes
> 
> Most states do have mandatory building codes, but there are still 15 states where the existence of codes is a matter of local jurisdiction. Often it is the larger cities that opt for control of building practice, while the the more rural areas are freer. This is true in Alabama, Arkansas, Hawaii, Michigan, Missouri, North Dakota, South Dakota, and Wyoming.
> 
> Some states have just a few counties that have yet to establish code requirements. In Arizona there is only one such county (Greenlee); in California there are three (Mendocino, Humbolt, and Nevada**) that have adopted the liberal "Limited Density Rural Dwellings" program; Colorado has 15 open counties (including Saguache county); Iowa has eight free counties; Mississippi is mostly free, except for coastal areas where wind and flood codes are enforced.
> 
> Special cases are Tennessee, which is now in transition from having no codes to having mandatory control, and Texas, which does have state codes, but enforcement seems to be very lax. Of course the situation is always changing, so it behooves anyone planning to move to a code-free region to find out specifically what the situation is there.
> 
> The book that provided this information contains a wealth of other related advise and data that is well worth the price of the book, and since it is an e-book it can easily be kept up to date.
> 
> ** This may have changed. From what I can find, Nevada county now requires building permits.


One of the reasons I like it here in AR...there are other reasons it isn't the best, but overall it's decent. I don't need any permits to build, not even septic permits, I can have an outhouse, and if I want electric, they will do a drop line and connection is up to me.

A guy built about 1/2 mile from me, and I helped him install his power pole. The electric company came out, ran the line to it, handed him a meter, and said make sure you bury that line deep enough, and when you hook to the pole, make sure the last thing you do is push in the meter. Never in my life have I seen that.

Just have to dig a deep hole for all the meth heads cooking in the county  I don't think a permit is needed for that either....lol


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## geoffreys7

When I sold my last home I had a 8' x 10' shed on it and the town wanted me to get a permit for it before I could sell the house. As it was only on 6 concrete blocks I asked the building department to consider it temporary, the inspector looked at it and the permit was waived. Had it been on a foundation it would have cost me over $200 for a permit!


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## Wolf1066

geoffreys7 said:


> When I sold my last home I had a 8' x 10' shed on it and the town wanted me to get a permit for it before I could sell the house. As it was only on 6 concrete blocks I asked the building department to consider it temporary, the inspector looked at it and the permit was waived. Had it been on a foundation it would have cost me over $200 for a permit!


My dad put up one of those small kitset sheds - he first poured a concrete pad for it and had 2x2s jutting up out of the concrete at the corners. Used bolts to secure the shed to the 2x2s.

As he used bolts to secure it to the pad, it was a temporary structure. If he'd used *one *nail, it would have been classed as permanent and would require a building permit.

Later, my sister had a large villa trucked to her property and set down in front of her small beach house. Dad built a wooden deck between the two and made sure nails went from the deck's joists into both buildings - to circumvent a local by-law that prohibited more than one building on the property... by nailing them together, the large villa was an "extension" of the existing building. The deck's not even covered, let alone walled in.

Weird legislation.

I'm sure most places have weird ways in which you can get around some of the more pesky rules.


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## weedygarden

Turtle said:


> Anyone remember this story out of England?
> 
> Farmer's secret castle must be demolished, court rules | Mail Online
> 
> Basically, this farmer was trying to take advantage of an English law that says if one builds a structure without permits and it stands for four years without any complaints, it may stay. He built a Tudor-style _castle_ behind giant bales of hay, left them in place for four years, then revealed the home. The government essentially said that he was concealing the building, so it didn't count, and are making him tear down his beautiful home.


This is an interesting story. I have thought about having a hideaway that looks like a stack of hay bails. Besides being hidden in plain sight, I think it would be well insulated.


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## BillS

weedygarden said:


> HozayBuck said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a firm believer in the old saying that is easier to get forgiveness the permission , If you have a place that's out of sight and your able to build it yourself then that's what I'd do.
> 
> But I would forgo things like insurance, grid power etc, anything that leaves a trail to your door.
> 
> What's the worst they can do? fine you? they can't make you tear it down or so I think
> 
> 
> 
> I have friends in real estate. Someone built a two story garage/office behind their home with no permits. We are talking Denver, Colorado. Guess what, it was finished, being used, and they were required to tear it down. The foundation, framing, wiring, etc. had not been inspected and they couldn't inspect through the drywall, etc.
> 
> When it comes to building and thinking your place can't be seen from the road so now no one knows: guess again. It is satellite images that are being used now. In Florida and other places in the south, people wanted to build swimming pools, but didn't want to pay the taxes on them. They are searching with satellite images now to see who has pools and who doesn't.
> 
> I always thought that I wanted to build without a permit for the same reason. If they don't know I have built something, they can't come and search and raid the place. This is more and more why I think creating something underground is better.
> 
> One of the things I have worked on is creating the vault, the room in the basement where I keep my preps. I think this is faulty also, because if someone gets to the vault, they get it all. If I had a few caches, a raider might not get all of my stuff in one fell swoop.
> 
> 
> 
> It depends on what you have but I think that most people wouldn't consider your preps to be valuable. Thieves look for expensive items that are easily sold. Laptops, electronics, things like that.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## weedygarden

BillS said:


> It depends on what you have but I think that most people wouldn't consider your preps to be valuable. Thieves look for expensive items that are easily sold. Laptops, electronics, things like that.


That might be true for now. If people are concerned about food, or are hungry, they act differently. I have read stories about people being snowed in for a few days and then stealing bread from bread trucks.

I had an experience where I was carrying a cake from a meeting, leaving a building. Someone who passed me asked if she could have a piece. I said she could. Then a few people we both knew came by and she yelled, "Come get some cake," and started grabbing at the cake like she hadn't eaten in days, mauling the cake and tearing it up. It was absolutely wierd. When I told her to stop and asked her why she was doing that, she apologized and told me she sometimes had odd reactions to food.

If you have ever worked where there was an employee lounge and people had a shared refrigerator, you know that people will steal food, even when they have no need to, except that they didn't get their act together to bring what they stole.

I believe that starving people would kill for food.


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## rhrobert

Well crap....just got my notice saying my property taxes were increased. 
Went up a whole whopping $2.32 on 23 acres.


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## LincTex

rhrobert said:


> Well crap....just got my notice saying my property taxes were increased. Went up a whole whopping $2.32 on 23 acres.


Not bad.

I bought a 14 x 76 trailer house for $1 and moved it onto my 6 acres. No power, no water - just "there" sitting on raw land. Taxes went from $500 to $650


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## LincTex

mosquitomountainman said:


> In Flathead County in particular they....are crooks in the government,
> 
> Where we live (NOT in Flathead County!)


Lived there. CROOKS is for sure. It is so funny - - people all over this country are often heard saying: "If things get bad, I am moving to MONTANA!!"

Oh, they have no idea.....


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## rhrobert

LincTex said:


> Not bad.
> 
> I bought a 14 x 76 trailer house for $1 and moved it onto my 6 acres. No power, no water - just "there" sitting on raw land. Taxes went from $500 to $650


Imagine what happens when you start making improvements!


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## boomer

I would think that if you need a permit to build something the place cannot be considered a retreat - survival or any other kind of retreat.


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## kfander

First, I'd like to comment on something said earlier in this thread about building inspectors not necessarily knowing what they were doing. In the mid 1980s, as a paramedic, I was hired as an EMS Director for an otherwise volunteer ambulance service in a small city in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas. I was also the health inspector and a lieutenant in the volunteer fire department. The city was paying a part-time building inspector $12,000 a year to be available one day a week, and sometimes he wasn't even there for that, since he was the building inspector for several cities and towns. I looked into what it would take to be licensed as a building inspector and found that it required passing an open-book multiple choice test. Knowing next to nothing about building construction, electrical or plumbing, I spend a week studying the Southern Building Code book so that I would know where to find answers, then took the test. Most of the questions were sentences about various building regulations, the correct answer being the completion of the sentence, and for about a third of the questions the correct answer was the only one that would form a grammatically correct sentence. I passed easily, then offered to be available every week day for a raise of $6,000 a year over what I was already being paid, and did that for five years before moving on to a larger ambulance company.

To the question about building without a building permit, I have a hundred acres in extreme northern Maine. It includes a couple of potato fields that we're leasing to the potato farmer who was leasing it from the previous owner. About a third of the land is a cedar swamp, and the rest is heavily wooded, with about a thirty year growth.

Our access road is also an ATV trail and a snowmobile trail in the winter, so the road is not plowed in the winter.

I had considered building on the sly for many of the same reasons that were stated here, but I realized that there would be a good chance that an ATV would come through while our building was being transported to the location (since we'll be starting with a building made by the Amish) or someone from one of the houses that we would have to pass by on our way there, it being a rural area, and probably there would be people talking, which might eventually find its way to the wrong people. Either way, I will have to cut a path through the woods to our chosen home site, which would be noticed by anyone driving through on an ATV. Although I plan on re-planting across the road in favor of a more hidden access later, initially the truck will need a straight path to where we want the building dropped, and people would notice that. That building would be only semi-secret; it'll be on the record but I don't necessarily want everyone who drives by on an ATV or snowmobile to know that it's there.

Being Maine, however, it is not at all unusual for someone to have a camp in the woods somewhere, which may be used for hunting and weekend stays. So I have applied for a seasonal camp permit with a primitive greywater system. I am miles out of the town itself but still within a town limits, and the town has a part-time building inspector who is there only on Friday mornings so my feeling is that he doesn't get too inquisitive as long as he appears to be doing his job.

I don't have the approval yet because he wasn't in last week but I have no reason to think it won't be approved, since I did meet with him shortly after we bought the property to feel him out.

If anyone asks at the town office about activity back there, they might be told that we have a permitted camp on our property, and that would be very likely to satisfy curiosities. Meanwhile, I can think about building something else further into the woods on the other side of the road in another part of our property. I'd like to try my hand at an earth bag house, and am not confident of getting a permit for earth bag construction. It's not likely to be found, since it won't have much in the way of a footprint from the air and no one else should be wandering around in our woods anyhow. If it should be found, it's less likely than anything else to present a problem because it's only dirt, after all. I think I could feign ignorance on that one, since certainly I'm allowed to move dirt around on my own property, put it into bags, and stack the bags...


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## lickit

*not only no permit, but not on your property!*

Just ask Randy Weaver if your property tax info won't bring Big Brother to your door! Your land is the LAST place to stash survival goodies or have a shelter, actually.


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## Padre

There are all sorts of camo and in this case a little linguistic camo is in order. Why try to scam the system? Play the system. 

My retreat, is a ski house, my firing range an out door gazebo. It helps of course if you pick a county where personal privacy is respected and local regulation is at a minimal. But playing the system, which is not designed primarily to track preppers but usually to tax or occasionally to look out for the common good and public safety, is usually the best bet.


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## BillS

weedygarden said:


> That might be true for now. If people are concerned about food, or are hungry, they act differently. I have read stories about people being snowed in for a few days and then stealing bread from bread trucks.
> 
> I had an experience where I was carrying a cake from a meeting, leaving a building. Someone who passed me asked if she could have a piece. I said she could. Then a few people we both knew came by and she yelled, "Come get some cake," and started grabbing at the cake like she hadn't eaten in days, mauling the cake and tearing it up. It was absolutely wierd. When I told her to stop and asked her why she was doing that, she apologized and told me she sometimes had odd reactions to food.
> 
> If you have ever worked where there was an employee lounge and people had a shared refrigerator, you know that people will steal food, even when they have no need to, except that they didn't get their act together to bring what they stole.
> 
> I believe that starving people would kill for food.


I was thinking about people breaking into your bug out location before it hits the fan. After it hits the fan you'd better be where your food is and you'd better be armed.

Yes, I agree, starving people would kill for food. I think people would kill for food if their children hadn't eaten in a week. That's why I hope the collapse happens in the winter. It would be better for people to freeze than starve. It would be a lot safer for those of us who live where winters are cold. You'd have a lot fewer people wandering around in January than you would in June.


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## eldarbeast

I knew a feller who had a home and a detached two-car garage with dirt floor in a medium sized city that had rented a small back hoe and dug out the garage floor and installed a bunker (about 20' x 20') within the confines of the garage's perimeter. After roofing the bunker with concrete and lead sheeting (sealed in epoxy), he returned the dirt back to its former location (about 2 feet depth) in the garage as additional barrier against fallout. The entrace to the bunker was beneath either the washer or dryer. 
To camouflage his activities, he got permits to make large openings around each of his basement windows to bring natural lighting in for his basement.
After all the digging, building and replacement of the dirt, he invited the city inspectors in to check out his work. No problems were noted and he was home free.
He then built an entirely new garage within the confines of his existing garage. Then he aged the new garage to hide what he'd done.
Years later, after his death, his wife sold the property to younger relatives and moved in with her younger sister...

eldarbeast


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## BlueShoe

In some states if you own AGRICULTURAL zoned land you don't need permits for Ag buildings. Those can be pretty large and somewhat diverse. If it is a legitimate Ag building and functions as such, why would they think otherwise? Just saying. :ignore:


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## BlueShoe

BillS said:


> I think people would kill for food if their children hadn't eaten in a week. That's why I hope the collapse happens in the winter. It would be better for people to freeze than starve. It would be a lot safer for those of us who live where winters are cold. You'd have a lot fewer people wandering around in January than you would in June.


My guess is .gov has probably made a plan for a world event in the winter for just that reason. Frozen people don't stink as much either. It gives you more time to get them disposed of as opposed to 'spoiling' in the Sun. Or maybe they want more spoilage and the resulting disease, which creates more death?


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## wheelsee

pdx210 said:


> In an urban area YES to all the above all they need to do is have a neighbor report you or happen to drive by. In my town building inspectors look for active construction sites as they drive to and from inspections when they see one the check to see if permits have been pulled thats how they find most violators


be aware that some cities reward garbage collectors and utility folks for reporting construction without posted permits...........


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## BlueShoe

They do it by aerial/satellite now too. I buy old cars from a scrapper sometimes. He lives off the road on a hill and the city came with Google maps printed that showed he was in violation of zoning. He had a single wide mobile home in the city limits which is prohibited.


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## Wanderer0101

My county looked at satellite imagery of my raised beds and decided that I'd installed a pool so they raised my taxes. I had to show them pictures of the actual garden to get the taxes reduced. Pretty hard to hide from that kind of technology. Misdirection works better.


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## LincTex

*Gestapo!!!!!!!!!!!!*

The last two posts make me so ANGRY!! 

"They" are using technology to its limits to impose the maximum amount of damage to the people. This is getting so much worse - much faster- than I thought it would.


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## Jack Aubrey

If there is one thing a government, be it Federal, State, County, or municipal, excels in is wringing money from the people. As more and more governments become cash strapped, their insatiable hunger will drive them to dream up more and more "creative" taxes and fee. I would also expect them to become much more strict in enforcing existing codes in the hope of squeezing a few more bucks out of the people.
I would "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" up to a point. Then again, history is replete with examples of common people giving repressive governments the bird!


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## SierraM37

Oh they want your money as it means THEIR job, poorly as some may do it. In our county, a new building permit in 2000 was about $18,000. Today you have to she'll out $60,000 or more before you even put a shovel in the ground. And if you don't think they use that $60,000 as part of the costs basis when assessing the parcel, read the first sentence again.


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## Offgridgiles117

Where I live, the rules say I can build a temp building up to 400Sqft without a permit.

Needless to say there will be a lot of 350sqft buildings hanging around on my property.


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## LincTex

Offgridgiles117 said:


> Where I live, the rules say I can build a temp building up to 400Sqft without a permit. Needless to say there will be a lot of 350sqft buildings hanging around on my property.


Probably only one allowed, though 

I think around here (depending on the city) you can go up to about 12 x 24 as long as it is on skids and not a real foundation. It must be on built-in skids, though to be classified as a temporary building... so a 8 x 20 shipping container is out.


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## TheLazyL

LincTex said:


> Not bad.
> 
> I bought a 14 x 76 trailer house for $1 and moved it onto my 6 acres. No power, no water - just "there" sitting on raw land. Taxes went from $500 to $650


I contested my property reassentment and got a reduction!


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## biobacon

Looks like I'll just have to buy something already built. Cant believe I just cant buy some land and build a cabin on it. Pisses me off. I dont even mind paying tax on the land and cabin but SOBs shouldnt make me pay for permission to build it like they tell me to.


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## LincTex

biobacon said:


> Cant believe I just cant buy some land and build a cabin on it.


Yes you CAN do exactly that, it just depends on where you do it. The laws vary dramatically from state to state, and depending how close you are to a city or not.


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## PrepN4Good

You wouldn't believe how incredibly nosy the inspector is who is approving the building at the retreat we belong to. "What's this for? Why that? Why this?" even tho it's none of his damn business...he's just supposed to check for code violations. So you know everyone in the county knows what we're doing now. :gaah:


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## cnsper

As stated it depends on where you are at. Here the county does not have the ability to issue building permits and if you build it yourself, there is no state building permit required. It is only if you hire someone to build it for you.

As for septic systems, get a composting toilet of something to that effect and eliminate the need. I am off the grid with no running water, no electric etc. It does not even come down my road. There is power and phone at the other end of my property but that is 1k feet away and over a mountain.

Now this place came with a 10x10 shack that I am currently residing in and I have plans to expand it to 10x19 before winter. I have an old house foundation that still has good floor joists on it that are rough cut 2x6 so that is why the odd dimensions. I will reuse that lumber for the floor and double thick pallets for the walls. I also have a friend that gave me trusses for the roof and metal roofing material. All is good.


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## eldarbeast

This is where a good camouflaged net comes into play... 

Set up the net and put your building beneath it. What they can't see they can't charge you for.

eldar


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## crickett

I don't know... My husband has become a bit wary of people who aren't preppers knowing that we're setting things back. He's convinced that maintaining a low profile is the only way to go, which I absolutely agree is the safe thing to do but worry that it may do exactly what was mention and draw even more attention to us in the long run.


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## webeable

Look at it this way you can get 8x10 or 12 buildings set on skids, then when SHTF move together into one building so you can heat all from one wood burner. use one to store the finishing toucjes to move together.

1) main living space (kitchen, dinning, setting)
2) bedrooms with folding beds
3) storage (will need just enough heat to keep canned goods from freezing)
4) bonus room for whatever totally optional.


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## RoadRash

Here in Canada with my BOL neighbors warned to get a permit building a new deck good thing I did as the township inspectors take turns driving around on weekends looking. But they where very helpfull I cant have a trailer on property unless plated I can have 3 sheds 10x10 or smaller on patio stones if I have more taxes go up, then the tax man came around because of permit to asses property value is increased because of a 18x 12 deck, previous deck was 10 x 15 he agreed with me and said deck was not on old plans showed him old footings no increase yet I hope.


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## Bobbb

There's lots of ways to play the system.

First off, buy camouflage netting and use it during construction so as to frustrate both drive-by casual viewing and satellite images.

Secondly, hide in plain sight. For instance, if allowed only 3 10x10 sheds, then build the structure you want underground and park a 10x10 shed on top of it and you can even place paving stones around the perimeter of the 10x10 shed while keeping the real foundation inside the building.

Now the odds are quite high that the easier path to take is to pay the permit fee and the increased tax assessment every year thereafter, however if this is a point of principle (why should you a.) have to ask permission to build on your own damn property or b.) why should you have to pay a tax on something you own every single year that you own it) then going through this process of actively hiding your facilities might be the better route.

Another plan you can follow is to build a ranch house with only one SMALL bedroom, bare minimum of size but build a very steeply pitched roof, built on 2nd floor knee walls, and build out the eaves. Then after you get your certificate of occupancy, transform the bedroom into a stairwell, and go to town on your spacious 2nd floor. Most jurisdictions don't tax or attach permit fees to attics. Now all of your improvements are contained within your home and unless you allow a tax assessor into your home, they remain invisible to authorities.

If the goal is to reduce tax liability, then a home design which is odd is going to work to that end. Building a ranch with a tiny, tiny master bedroom and no other bedrooms is going to put your house into sparse company in terms of comparables. 

Now of course, if you take this secret building route and your house burns down then your home insurance company is going to work hard to deny your claim because of unpermitted construction.

The route to take is the one which yields the best combination of payoffs versus combination of costs.


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## hiwall

in my county you have to get a permit($10) to put up a mailbox!


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## k0xxx

Dang, I love living here. In this unincorporated part of the county there are no building permits required, and assessment is generally done every three to four years, it is very casual, and tax rates are extremely low. My little 1200sf home, a 12x24ft building, 20x20ft building, 8x16 ft building, all on 15 acres, runs about $55 a year in taxes. We're about to add a 14x32ft shop on a slab, so I'm sure taxes will go up a bit, but not by much. I have a 14x24ft building with a cellar that has never even made it onto their assessment (I guess all of the trees covering it and surrounding it have done their job).


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## Chemechie

Where I live the only permit I can get is for a septic system - and the county guy told me I didn't even need a system where I live!
Check your local regs - each municipality and county vary; some are ridiculous, some are pretty lax or nonexistent (like mine). I'm not as remote as I'd like to be, but for the time being its a good place for me.


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## BillS

Bobbb said:


> There's lots of ways to play the system.
> 
> Now the odds are quite high that the easier path to take is to pay the permit fee and the increased tax assessment every year thereafter, *however if this is a point of principle (why should you a.) have to ask permission to build on your own damn property or b.) why should you have to pay a tax on something you own every single year that you own it) *then going through this process of actively hiding your facilities might be the better route.


It seems pretty weird to use the word "principle" and then use it as an excuse to cheat on your taxes.


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## Bobbb

BillS said:


> It seems pretty weird to use the word "principle" and then use it as an excuse to cheat on your taxes.


Wealth, or property, taxes are about the most immoral taxes I can imagine. With an income tax the government only takes a portion of what you earn. With a sales tax you're only taxed if you purchase something. Taxing people every year for the property that they own removes choice from them. There are plenty of senior citizens who bought a house when they were younger, paid taxes all of their lives and now that they are on reduced incomes they have to pay high taxes on their property because the property has increased in value due to improvements that their neighbors have made to their properties. Forcing people to sell their homes because they can't meet the ever rising tide of property tax bills is immoral.

If two people build identical houses but one clads his with vinyl siding and the other person clads his with stone or brick, I can't see why the person who clad his home with stone must now pay a higher property tax bill every year thereafter. These types of tax schemes create disincentives for spending money on improvements for now you have to consider the cost of the improvement, along with the sales taxes, the income taxes to earn the money to pay the bill, etc but you also have to factor in that there will be an annual tax forever after on the value of what you've just improved. It's not a matter of spending the money and then you're done with the taxes, the property taxes bite you forever.

So, simply because a majority passes a law doesn't make the law moral, which is the basis of your observation. I, or someone else who objects to these immoral taxes and who takes measures not to pay what the tax man declares that we must pay will have to suffer the consequences if uncovered. That's the trade-off. Do what you believe is moral and face potential punishment from the "Might Makes Right" camp or subject yourself to immoral coercion.


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## LincTex

Bobbb said:


> Taxing people every year for the property that they own removes choice from them. There are plenty of senior citizens who bought a house when they were younger, paid taxes all of their lives and now they ..... have to sell their homes because they can't meet the ever rising tide of property tax.


I am meeting more and more of people in this situation. Some of them are in their 80's and have been retired for 15-20 years and never imagined things would go so bad for them.


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## Shammua

Do I need a building permit to install a Radius Shelter?
No in almost all cases. The smaller shelters have no foundation and are therefore not considered a permanent structure and therefore do not require a building permit. The larger shelters have fiberglass bases and fiberglass floors. This results in a hole that is more shallow and it allows articulation in each arch base. It also means that there is no waiting for concrete to cure.

This is from Radius Engineering site and shelters is what they do all over the country. If I was gong to do anything that would raise questions and assors used google maps and came with a copy to show my changes, well at best they would only be getting me for a garage, everything else is about 10 feet under ground and 100% off grid. I bet with some investigation you can find out when pics are taken in you area for things like google maps and can plan your build out/install around that.

For me if I was to get my dream shelter, I would certainly do that so that google maps doesn't show a huge hole and construction area one year, then a nice grassy field with some trees the next. That just screams underground preppers shelter...


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## LincTex

Shammua said:


> Do I need a building permit to install a Radius Shelter? No in almost all cases. .....................This is from Radius Engineering site


Yeah, right! They have never dealt with the Nazis my mother-in-law has to deal with in her Dallas suburb! Between the City Code Enforcement and their worth-less-than-nothing "HOA", they can't do anything to their yard without a permit!!


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## Shammua

LincTex said:


> Yeah, right! They have never dealt with the Nazis my mother-in-law has to deal with in her Dallas suburb! Between the City Code Enforcement and their worth-less-than-nothing "HOA", they can't do anything to their yard without a permit!!


That's probably why they used ALMOST in the wording.  lol


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## RoadRash

My next BOL once I can afford to upgade will be on an unassumed Rd in an unassumed township my friends BOL does not require permits he has put up 2 out buildings n a bunkie no increase in taxes as none of this is seen from road and all materials purchased close to home and he took up.


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## Londoner

If they can find it you have wasted your time building it.


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## LincTex

Londoner said:


> If they can find it you have wasted your time building it.


Depends on who the "they" are that you are referring to. Everyone has a name.

They: Military = you really can't hide from them, honestly.
They: people you don't like = success


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## Shammua

LincTex said:


> Depends on who the "they" are that you are referring to. Everyone has a name.
> 
> They: Military = you really can't hide from them, honestly.
> They: people you don't like = success


What if you don't like the Military?  lol

It's hard to hide from everyone all the time but I think you can have a high enough success rate that unless a group showed up and was looking specifically for your retreat (what ever it is) it can be well hidden then.


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## bassmasterskip

*100% agree*



survivalboy12895 said:


> I got to thinking today."Should people use building permits when building there survival reatreat?".As much as I stress building to code,I think that a survival retreat is an exeption.One of the main things of a survival retreat,is keeping it private.But by filing building permits with your county and state just makes it about as ""Here I am Feds,come and look at all this gear that will help you in a disaster!!" as you can get.Imagine this.Theres a global collapse,but the Feds are going around looking for food,water,survival gear,etc to "" Help people out"" in this time of need.Well if everyone filed there building permits,then all the Feds have to do is go to the city hall and or state department,and look for those "Hunting cabins" and "Vacation homes" and also........"Survival retreats".Even if you go to the great pains of concealment and security for your retreat,the Feds will still find you with the aid of(you guessed it)the building permits that you filed with the county and state.What are your thoughts on this???


Surviverboy I have to agree with you totaly. If you plan a survival retreat keep it off the grid. If you get a permit you might as well just call it a outhouse becuase in a time of conflict it will turn to crap anyway. It is funny how government officials say they support our Constitution but yet want to know every thing we do or plan to do. In the end it is a survival retreat and to survive no one should know about it.


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## kreativemuse

I have to agree. I am looking for a location where it is dense forrest to build my home. Im doing it all in concrete with a hidden underground basement. Im building it myself with my husband and family members are helping. If i do it right, there will be no arial view just trees, perhaps smoke from my stove. We shall see. It is not really easy to hide when people come looking for stuff. Thats why I will have a safe room built in my basement with a security pad entry hidden behind stuff. My food will be stored down stairs, where no one would even think to look.


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## kejmack

Boy, this is an old thread.

I agree with LincTex. You can't hide from the military. And, I might add, you can't hide from the neighbors. 

I live in an area where the ranches are measured in thousands of acres and there is very little that goes on here undetected. People here immediately notice vehicles and/or people. You would not be able to build anything undetected. Even if you came in on foot under darkness, you would be discovered eventually. The first time you lit a camp fire, someone would come to check it out.


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## kejmack

I should add that if you are from out of town and you buy a piece of property to build you BOL on, EVERYONE will know about it. Small towns have no secrets. People know everything that is going on. The realtor will tell his wife, "whew, finally sold that Jones property." The wife will tell her Sunday School class, "out of towners bought that Jones property". The Sunday School class will tell their husbands. The first time you come to town to get gas for your truck, the clerk at the gas station will say, "Oh, you must be the one that bought the Jones property." I am not exaggerating. 

Not only that, but if you buy a piece of property, you are going to be paying taxes on it and the process of buying it leaves a huge paper trail. It isn't like "the Feds" won't be able to look at that. 

Then, there is GoogleEarth. Seriously, you aren't going to be able to hide.


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## Bobbb

kreativemuse said:


> I have to agree. I am looking for a location where it is dense forrest to build my home. Im doing it all in concrete with a hidden underground basement. Im building it myself with my husband and family members are helping. If i do it right, there will be no arial view just trees, perhaps smoke from my stove. We shall see. It is not really easy to hide when people come looking for stuff. Thats why I will have a safe room built in my basement with a security pad entry hidden behind stuff. My food will be stored down stairs, where no one would even think to look.


Considering that local governments have the authority to order you to tear down your building if not built to code, I'd counsel that you do one of a few things:

1.) Build a house with proper permits but only plan for a crawlspace. Then when foundation excavation time comes dig deep enough for a basement but when times comes for a slab, fill in the volume of the basement and pour a thin slab so that you end up with a crawlspace.

This way your foundation walls are to code and after all is said and done you can dig it out and make it what you want and if it ever gets discovered then you should still be in safe territory because the walls were included in your permit.

2.) Keep the house within the permit process but put all of your accessory enhancements outside of the house so if they are discovered your house never gets into legal jeopardy.

Think carefully about the benefits of keeping this secret versus the costs that will fall on you if discovered. Not to mention that if a secret build is discovered, depending on its nature, it could be thought by police to be a drug operation being built on the sly, and thus all of the attention that you wish to avoid in a SHTF situation will come raining down on you long before the SHTF as SWAT raids your house to investigate your marijuana grow room.


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## Grimm

I have to play devil's advocate on one issue.

As sooooo many have already stated, the authorities WILL 100% make you tear it down if you do not have permits for it. That goes for fences, sheds you buy at Home Depot or even carports without solid walls. I know this for a fact because I am that b*tch that has reported these types of construction to the local authorities. 

Now, I don't go around reporting everyone but if I am being affected by the construction I will report it. Our previous landlord had to tear down his $50,000 bathroom remodel, guest house, back fence and had a new roof installed on the house. I still look at the Google Earth images of the checker board foundation that once was his marble bathroom floor. 

Yes, he deserved it and I would do it again. You don't claim you can't afford home repairs to your rental property then buy a brand new car cash and tell the tenants!


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## LincTex

Grimm said:


> I have to play devil's advocate on one issue.
> 
> Our previous landlord had to tear down his $50,000 bathroom remodel, guest house, back fence and had a new roof installed on the house.
> 
> Yes, he deserved it and I would do it again. You don't claim you can't afford home repairs to your rental property then buy a brand new car cash and tell the tenants!


How did he "deserve it"?


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## hiwall

When I had my previous home, I decided to build an addition. I went to the zoning office where 4 employees were discussing what they watched on TV the previous evening. I was the only "customer" there. They all looked at me but continued their conversation for some time. I walked out and built my addition. About 4 to 5 years later the tax assessor came to my house and said"I see you have an addition, we will have to add that to your assessment". My taxes went up a small amount. End of story. Never was asked when or how it was built or anything else. I'm sure every location is different but not all make you tear things down.


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## Grimm

LincTex said:


> How did he "deserve it"?


He was our landlord and refused to make needed repairs to the house while we rented it. Instead of the repairs he bought a brand new car with cash then claimed he could not afford the repairs to the house. By state and county law the repairs were required to make the house habitable. He started saying he didn't want to make the repairs because if he could afford them he could have charged triple for rent. I wasn't going to pay rent on a house with a leaky roof, black mold in the bathroom and a rotting wooden sub floor. I reported him to the authorities. An inspector came out and wrote him up on 28+ code violations and told him he had to tear down the bathroom addition on his garage, tear down the rotting guest house(where someone else was renting) and move out of the garage where he was illegally living. He ended up having 30 days to make over $100,000 in repairs to the house or he lost the property. The other renter sued him because they had to move out of the guesthouse so it could be torn down.

Everyone the landlord knew told him time and time again that he had to make the repairs or we would report him. He thought he could scare us into living in a slum.


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## LincTex

I am not questioning whether he is a moral or decent person or not. I am questioning the route taken by the sequence of events in your story.

Let's say another car hits mine, and the driver fails to stop. 
I follow him, and he pulls into the driveway of his house. 
Now that I have his address, I send him a certified letter asking for the $300 worth of damages to my car to be paid, but he refuses to answer me back or pay. I try several times over several months, but he still refuses.

So, one night I go over and shoot the dog in his backyard dead. 
He deserved it, right?


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## Grimm

LincTex said:


> I am not questioning whether he is a moral or decent person or not. I am questioning the route taken by the sequence of events in your story.
> 
> Let's say another car hits mine, and the driver fails to stop.
> I follow him, and he pulls into the driveway of his house.
> Now that I have his address, I send him a certified letter asking for the $300 worth of damages to my car to be paid, but he refuses to answer me back or pay. I try several times over several months, but he still refuses.
> 
> So, one night I go over and shoot the dog in his backyard dead.
> He deserved it, right?


We tried talking to him about the repairs for 4 months. I was calling his property manager every day. She would tell me it was HIS house and he didn't need to make the repairs. (The law here in California says otherwise when dealing with rental properties) When we started getting $300 utility bills every month(from him living illegally in the garage) we had had enough. The repairs needed to be done and he needed to get his ass out of the garage as per the lease. This is why he deserves to have had the authorities called and the $100,000 in mandatory repairs. The outcome was a direct result of the problem. I just made sure he got what was coming to him.


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