# One of the many reasons why I plan on bugging in...



## Elinor0987

Every so often the National Inflation Association puts out a video on their website to illustrate various topics about the economy, inflation, etc.,. Today they posted a video about public response to a water line breaking that gives a good picture of the panic that would follow a hyperinflationary scenario and just about any other type of disaster. It's the one titled "Empty Store Shelves Coming to America". I would rather avoid the chaos as much as possible and stay inside. Hopefully some of them will learn from that experience and start preparing for the next emergency. I'm inclined to think that with the local and state budget shortfalls, we might see more and more stories like this because the infrastructure requires money and manpower to maintain. Something is bound to fail once they start chipping away at funding for the programs that are supposed to oversee its maintenance.

National Inflation Association


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## gypsysue

Good video.

Even some of us who are preparing don't fully realize how fragile the food supply is. Best to not put off getting what we're going to need.

We've all seen examples in the news of the runs on stores when something happens (tornadoes, floods,earthquakes), or just before an impending disaster (hurricanes).

I'm with Elinor0987...I'd rather avoid the chaos.


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## HarleyRider

I'm with Elinor and Sue... I went through Hurricane Andrew and the ones that followed. I know what empty shelves are all about. Thank God for a well-stocked pantry and MREs' (C Rations tasted better from my experience in the war).


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## Littlebit

I agree, better to have what you need then fight a mob for a loaf of bread or gallon of water.


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## Emerald

I have to say that I am planning on staying put unless the big bomb hits and then I won't be around anyhoo. I figure that being a nature gal and knowing all of the wild edibles here in the area and already knowing how to harvest and use those wild edibles and having my own pantry fully stocked(it could be so much better, but we are working on it) it would be worth it to stay here. In case of power outages we are stocked up food and water wise and I know how and where to get more.
We have power outages at least 4 to 5 per year and some can and will last over 4 to 5 days. If I knew it was gonna last longer then there are quite a few things that have to be done(like canning absolutely everything in the fridge and freezer if it is summer), but it would give me something to do without my computer!

Now the neighbor does have a huge generator on a cart as he is a contractor and uses it for his job, and he will come over and run it at our house for a few hours to charge up the freezer and we can refill our water jugs and flush again(we do have four containers that are just flush sized that we fill up and keep handy and they are easy to take to the river and refill for flushing.) and that kind of thing. The last time he refused to let us pay for the gas.


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## sailaway

Couldn't get video to boot up, but I also experienced empty shelves durring Hurricane Andrew. Luckly we had some food and were able to leave the area for a while.


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## Bigdog57

A few years back, a hurricane was approaching - but it actually swung away and we just got a good rain. I was already well stocked, so drove down to the local WallyWorld a couple hours before the predicted landfall, to see 'the show'.
Hehehe..... Soccermoms battling College Kids and Bubbas forthe remaining bottles of water, canned goods and batteries. Nobody going for camping gear (though they did sack the flashlight display next to it!), no runs on blankets or other likely useful items. The TV talking heads played up the "water, canned goods and batteries!" angle, so that is all the sheeple were after.
Normally good calm people battling like some demented gameshow or multiple shopping spree!
The gas stations were packed too - and I pity those fools hitting the highways at that time - they were 'parkways'.......

Unless something truly deadly is coming down our throats, I will bug IN too.


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## Tirediron

Last time I took a snowplow saftey course , the road authority rep said that with the 1 1/2 day (average) stock rotation plan in most major grocery store chains that it was policy to keep the highways open unless the plows got stuck . the 1 1/2 day supply is for a normal day not when there is an emergency. If SHTF and you don't have it , just forget you wanted it. :gaah:


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## UncleJoe

Around here, every time there is snow in the forecast, stores are a circus. Every container of milk, carton of eggs and loaf of bread vanish from the shelves. The media loves to splash it all over the 11:00 news. How much would they enjoy their sensationalism if those shelves couldn't be restocked within a couple days? I really enjoy _watching_ it as opposed to being a part of it.


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## wildman800

The biggest problem, in my opinion, of bugging out, without a bug out location owned and stocked with supplies concerns all of the supplies and equipment that is stored at my home. Getting sufficient carrying capacity will be a very difficult challenge to overcome in an emergency situation.

I intend to bug in until a situation has dragged on for so long that supplies are running low and bugging out is the only viable option left with supplies on hand (gasoline, food, etc) to get to friends in the country that I could bug out to.

That means that I would have less to leave behind with the limited amount of transport capability that I currently have.

In the last few years, I have decided to get a camper. I am realigning my budget now so that I can get the truck and camper combo that will do the job. I can have the camper standing by at my home, pre-stocked with food and other supplies. In an emergency, I would need to load water, weps/ammo, clothes, meds, and financial papers, hook up to the truck and go!


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## goose

Bugging in is very viable if it's in response to a temporary emergency, such as a snowstorm, temporary power outage, hurricane (if you're not looking down the barrel), and so on.

I think it's different if we're talking about a longer term, unresolvable crisis like financial collapse or energy shortages.

And then, I think a major determinant is where you live.

I live in a small town; I don't expect riots when food runs out, don't expect wandering hordes (at least in the first week or two).

But if I lived in a city, I'd look at this much differently. I think cities are going to experience severe problems in any kind of longer term scenario. 

I took some people to O'Hare airport in Chicago a few weeks back, and even though it was off-hours on a weekend, we *still* found ourselves in a traffic jam on a tollway. Imagine how it would be if everyone tried to leave (those that could, anyway).

I can imagine roving gangs preying on people stuck in traffic on these routes out of town. Gangs could "harvest" what they wanted/needed from people stuck in traffic. What could be done about it? The police (who would likely be busy elsewhere) couldn't respond, it's a traffic jam! 

Would we have gunfights in traffic? Chicago's a bit different because of their gun laws (though we'll see what happens now), but what about other places?

This scenario, of course, implies that bugging in is better, but how long could you sustain yourself in a city once people started going door-to-door looking for food?

If I lived in a city, I'd try to have a cache someplace I could get to, out of town. Not that this is a new idea.


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## HarleyRider

I am also in the process of picking up a camper as a BOV and "second home". I will also be bugging in since my new place upon retirement will be in the hills of Tennessee and away from most of the sheeple. There are also a couple of caves nearby that might prove useful. Plenty of game and fresh water in the area and some good soil to grow crops. :melikey:


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## Aemilia

wildman800 said:


> The biggest problem, in my opinion, of bugging out, without a bug out location owned and stocked with supplies concerns all of the supplies and equipment that is stored at my home. Getting sufficient carrying capacity will be a very difficult challenge to overcome in an emergency situation.
> 
> I intend to bug in until a situation has dragged on for so long that supplies are running low and bugging out is the only viable option left with supplies on hand (gasoline, food, etc) to get to friends in the country that I could bug out to.
> 
> That means that I would have less to leave behind with the limited amount of transport capability that I currently have.
> 
> In the last few years, I have decided to get a camper. I am realigning my budget now so that I can get the truck and camper combo that will do the job. I can have the camper standing by at my home, pre-stocked with food and other supplies. In an emergency, I would need to load water, weps/ammo, clothes, meds, and financial papers, hook up to the truck and go!


We have the same concern. A camper is a good idea, perhaps I'll start watching prices. Thanks.


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## mosquitomountainman

Timing will be everything. We once lived in a flood plain in Kansas. When the river was rising a neighbor came over and placed a rock in the road. When the water reaches the rock, he told us, it's time to leave. If you wait any longer you won't get out because your escape will be cut off three blocks away.

Prior to Katrina, those who waited met snarled, bumper to bumper traffic and gas stations with long lines. Many never reached their destination and had to shelter in community centers, churches, etc.

It's nice to think one has all the bases covered for bugging "in" but you should always have a viable escape plan no matter where you are. Once you have a plan, knowing when to put it into action will be the most important decision of all.


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## NaeKid

Aemilia said:


> We have the same concern. A camper is a good idea, perhaps I'll start watching prices. Thanks.


If you have more coin than I have at the moment, the SportsMobile is an amazing unit. Combine that with an off-road enhanced tent-trailer and you have a great BugOut Unit that will be able to traverse many roads and barely-there-roads (FSR).

If I remember correctly, you have three children, so, whatever vehicle you choose must be large enough to safely carry the kidlettes, and, other than a van (as linked above), my next choice would be a 4x4 CrewCab Dually truck with a camper mounted to the bed and a hitch to carry the "extras" in a trailer (tent, utility, enclosed, etc) that would make your BO location easier to access and stay at without needing to "go into town" for "one thing" that you will need.

For myself, I have Jeeps as my BugOutVehicles. One is highly modified for all terrain, one significantly modified for most terrains, one modified to handle lots and the last one just has a BIG engine to tow anything that can be attached to the hitch. It is in the planning stages to be significantly modified from stock, similar to the second Jeep listed.


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## Aemilia

Actually I have 4 - 1 is a baby, we are stopping because that fills our cab and a half truck  :gaah: (I don't know the term - 2 doors but a bench seat in back). Unfortunately we are low in the coin department, but sometimes older campers are cheap. Right now we are looking at buying land in a more remote location, if that falls through we need to come up with a better bug-out plan.

That aside, if there are food runs / short-term panic we will be laying low, perhaps with just enough action to look as lost as everyone else. When in Rome ...


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## NaeKid

Sounds like you have a crew-cab then. Having four kidlettes in one of those is going to be tight when the oldest reaches 10 - 12 years old. I don't envy those highway trips! :gaah:

Chevy / GMC has the Astro / Safari van that is based on the S-10 chasis and it comes as AllWheelDrive that is easily converted to FourWheelDrive - add a lift and bigger tires and you would have room to haul the brood, power to move them and 4WD to make sure that you get there. IF I had as many people to transport as you have, that kind of vehicle would seriously enter my thoughts as a contender. Older, easy to repair, parts plentiful and common enough that it doesn't draw too much attention - unless you build it like my friend Pete did with his van ... 

I am tryin' to find a picture so that you can see what he did with his Astro ...


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## NaeKid

Found a picture :congrat:


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## neil-v1

That is a sweet rig.


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## lanahi

NaeKid, your photo is so large that it makes the margins on this page wider so you have to scroll over to see the type. Is there a way to reduce the size of your photo? It would be easier to read. Just wondering.


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## NaeKid

lanahi - Sorry - it is a direct-link to his personal webpage. I'll see if I can do something with the picture to shrink-it to a much better size.


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## Todays Survival Show

This video is spot on. I'm in favor of bugging in too. Right now, I can't afford a BOL, so I'm preparing my home to bug in, I have no other choice right now.


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## lotsoflead

it's better to have at least one yrs supply of food, water ect. and never need it, then to need it and not have it.once you leave your home, weather it's in a vehicle or walking, you become a refugee and are at the cops,emergency peoples mercey or worse yet if matial law is declared.


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## Vertigo

I'm personally a big proponent of bugging in. It would take a lot to sway that opinion, for a couple of reasons:

- You will never be able to take as much equipment with you on the road, as you have in your house, in your barn, your garden, etc. 
- Things that only _seem_ like small 'discomforts' when considering bugging out, like shelter issues, cooking, sleeping, washing, etc. etc. will very quickly turn out to be major drains on anyone's energy levels. At home, you have a roof, you should be protected from everything but the worst of nature, you have all those buckets and heavy equipment, and what-have-you to make do with inconveniences when utilities break down. When bugging out, you will not be bringing those three big 50 litre buckets. Or that big 100kg tarp in the attic, etc.
- Also for protection, it is much more easy to protect oneself from inside your house, than from inside a tent. Or even a camper for that matter.
- Bugging out also brings the problems of traffic jams, and being exposed to huge crowds of unknown people, who might just believe they deserve more those bottles of water your children are holding.

In fact, if there really would be a long, drawn-out SHTF scenario, I might consider relocating to my grand-mother. She lives on big farm, much more secluded then where we live right now. However it is only a 30 min drive (with only small roads) from our house, so it wouldn't be the end of the world if we needed to get there. As far as moving our stuff, that would be the easy part: Two truck's (as in lorry's, not a crew-cab truck) each capable of hauling 25 tons. And since my grandmother's place isn't that far, we could easily make several round trips to secure all our supplies.

Btw,



NaeKid said:


> Found a picture


Unfortunately, the critic in me has to point out that the only thing that setup does, is look cool...

Maybe the truck itself might make it over some rough terrain, but that trailer is going nowhere, unless it is a highway. Just look at the clearance underneath it, or those tiny wheels...

Sorry to spoil it...

Best regards and take care,

V.


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## lotsoflead

once you leave your property is an EOTWAWKI situation or even a STHF senario, you become a refugee and are fair game for anyone, they can almost see what you have and how much of a fight you can put up to keep your supplies.
when you're on your property and in your home, they have no idea what you have or how many you have to protect your stuff. for all they know, you could fry their sorry --- any minute with a home made flame thrower or there is a lead slug pointed right between their eyes as they talk.
I'm speaking from a home in the country-woods though, I may have a different attitude if i lived in the village or a city. at least different defences.


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## HarleyRider

Personally, I think it would be better to meet the enemy on your home turf. You probably know the area better than they do, and you would know where your defenses have been set up. If you have booby-trapped your areas of entrance and exit, you should be able to control the situation a whole lot better than being on the road or on someone else's turf. 

A lot also depends on your age and/or physical condition. Elderly people could have a hard time bugging out, and some people might not be physically up to the task.

Also, by bugging in you have access to all of you resources, not just some of the ones you are able to take with you when bugging out. It's possible you have some items that are vital to your long-term survival that are just too bulky or heavy to reasonably move.

For what it's worth, that's my two-cents worth. eep:


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## Emerald

Just watched part of a movie called "The Trigger Effect" about a black out and how a family dealt with it, and I must say they did poorly and left their home for parents home and got shot and robbed of their vehicle in short order- sure they survived but then the lights came back on. Unprepared people should never be wandering around like that- just made them targets. It was an interesting movie, wish I could have caught the first 1/2 hour of it.


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## gypsysue

Just looked up the movie and it's available on Netfilx. Couldn't find it on hulu.

Would be interesting to see it.


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## Bigdog57

Naekid, that SuperAstro is awesome, but a bit too much. 

Once the minivan is paid off, I will see about getting my old 4X4 Dodge Ramcharger back in running condition, for a good SHTF vehicle. It'll be much more cost-effective than buying something at today's prices......
It's hard to justify the expense for something that would hardly ever get used - the occasional trip to the range out in the National Forest, or into a buddy's hunting lease property - it can get a bit rough in there.
But the fuel mileage of the Ramcharger makes it useless for DD duty. It would be a bit more EMP-survivable too, but so is my motorbike for use after a possible EMP event.
Since I absolutely will NOT BO except a very short time in case of a really bad hurricane, high cargo capacity is not needed. I'll fight and die here at home before becoming a refugee.


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## racerrandy

Hi, I am new here and am glad to see others in favor of staying at home. 

I think for me the safest place would be at home with my family and what I have stored. 

If things turn to a "Mad Max" type situation I am not sure that I would want suvive. 

Might change my mind when it comes to my family though, no way to know for sure untill it happens. 

Look forward to learning some things from all of you. 



Randy


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## Vertigo

racerrandy said:


> If things turn to a "Mad Max" type situation I am not sure that I would want suvive.


Why not?

Life is too precious to just give up... People have lived in miserable times before, they made it through, so can we.

V.


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## racerrandy

Well I am probably overstating it a little. My thoughts don't always translate to paper well.

I am sure when push comes to shove I would never give up, and do what ever it takes to protect my family. 

I am more of a fixer and a helper would probably rather take everyone in rather than fight them.

I guess its something I wili prepare for, but won't know what I will do untill that time comes. 


Randy


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## NaeKid

Vertigo said:


> Unfortunately, the critic in me has to point out that the only thing that setup does, is look cool...
> 
> Maybe the truck itself might make it over some rough terrain, but that trailer is going nowhere, unless it is a highway. Just look at the clearance underneath it, or those tiny wheels...
> 
> Sorry to spoil it...
> 
> Best regards and take care,
> 
> V.





Bigdog57 said:


> Naekid, that SuperAstro is awesome, but a bit too much.
> 
> Once the minivan is paid off, I will see about getting my old 4X4 Dodge Ramcharger back in running condition, for a good SHTF vehicle. It'll be much more cost-effective than buying something at today's prices......
> It's hard to justify the expense for something that would hardly ever get used - the occasional trip to the range out in the National Forest, or into a buddy's hunting lease property - it can get a bit rough in there.
> But the fuel mileage of the Ramcharger makes it useless for DD duty. It would be a bit more EMP-survivable too, but so is my motorbike for use after a possible EMP event.
> Since I absolutely will NOT BO except a very short time in case of a really bad hurricane, high cargo capacity is not needed. I'll fight and die here at home before becoming a refugee.


My friend had a Blazer with a bad body on it and he found a "cheap" Astro with a blown motor. He yank'd the body of the Blazer and tossed it into the garbage and then mounted the Astro body onto the Blazer's frame. The lift, tires, etc was already on the Blazer's frame. He turned it into a "show-piece" for his business (real-estate) but still drives it through the bush regularly with our club.


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## gypsysue

Now THAT'S something I'd like to see a picture of! An Astro on a Blazer frame! Cool!


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## NaeKid

gypsysue said:


> Now THAT'S something I'd like to see a picture of! An Astro on a Blazer frame! Cool!


Look at the picture of my friend Peter beside his van. That is exactly what he did ...


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## gypsysue

NaeKid said:


> Look at the picture of my friend Peter beside his van. That is exactly what he did ...


Okay, I found it back on page 2 of this thread. Since it's a front view I didn't realize what the rig was! A sideview would be nice, too, if you have one, or if you get a chance to take one!

Cool rig!


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## NaeKid

gypsysue said:


> Okay, I found it back on page 2 of this thread. Since it's a front view I didn't realize what the rig was! A sideview would be nice, too, if you have one, or if you get a chance to take one!
> 
> Cool rig!


I sent Peter a quick email and he responded with some more pictures ...


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## gypsysue

VERY cool! Thanks for posting the pics! Love the action shot especially!


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## Emerald

I WANT ONE! I love my 4 wheel drives- here in MI you don't always need one but when ya do YA DO!


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## UncleJoe

WOW!!! That's quite a beast! :2thumb:


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## Thdaoub

Good sharing, thank you!


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## Emerald

Well I'm sure that everyone says you're welcome!
But I never knew that they had SPAM in China? guess ya learn something new every day!


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## Spike2428

I agree.. I would much rather bug in and stay at home as long as my arsanel and myself can defend my property. As far as the wtshtf goes escape by car might not be an option. We all know that Obama will try to disarm all honest citizens, close off roads, and make every one believe that the government will be there to help every one no matter what. I myself am not counting on this at all and plan to be as self sustaining as possible.

Now still think about this though.. When the government does offer some supplies....food, water, ect.. I will be in line with everyone else looking as un threating as possible but also knowing that I have the supplies to at least make a decent attempt at making it at my own and feeding my family when the stores are no longer open. I will at least still have my .40 cal auto hidden on my self just in case.


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## UncleJoe

Spike2428 said:


> Now still think about this though.. When the government does offer some supplies....food, water, ect.. I will be in line with everyone else looking as un threating as possible but also knowing that I have the supplies to at least make a decent attempt at making it at my own and feeding my family when the stores are no longer open.


I've given this same idea some thought. While I don't like the idea of taking something for nothing, people will notice that you are well fed even though you never show up when the food wagon rolls into town. Eventually someone is going to investigate this and chances are they won't have your best interest in mind. So, do I take the handouts to remain under the radar? :dunno: Probably.


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## lotsoflead

I don't believe anyone can count on the government for anything unless it's a local concentrated disaster like Katrina and then it will probably be just bottles of water going in the wrong direction. if anything happens like an economic crash that effects the whole nation, we're on our own, they coldn't handle it. Also I don't think there is a small town or city in America that has a stock pile of food, even most of the food pantries are running out of stuff now and there is no emergency yet.

PS, if there were food lines though, I wouldn't be caught standing in one with my best camos,shined boots, carring a nice pack and an AK.47, someone may get suspicious and start asking questions.


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## vfourmax

I think that deciding in advance whether to bug in or bug out without knowing the exact situation that may be unfolding would or could be a pre-mature move.

Best would be having plans and the ability to be able to do either on extremely short notice as the situation calls for. 

The more densely the populated area that you reside in could be a determining factor as far as actually being able to avoid problems that could threaten both your safety and supplies.

Not to mention that in some densely populated areas depending on the situation and severity of the unrest that the powers in charge could very well decide to "collect" firearms to disarm the population to "protect" you.

Not to mention that if the same powers were to discover that you had ample foodstuffs in your possession that for the good of the general population they could be confiscated and redistributed as you would be considered to have excess above your immediate need.

Do not fool yourself for one minute that these things cannot happen here. In an "emergency" situation you have no rights other than what the government decides you should have. All travel could be curtailed, curfews where you could not leave the confines of your home and anything the government feels to be of value for the good of the population can be commandeered for use as the government sees fit.

Of course this sounds sort of extreme and in most instances it is but depending on the situation it could happen so rather than decide what to do in advance and put your eggs in one basket be prepared to move if you need to move.

Your location and area population numbers along with available routes out of your area should also influence your choice as to how long to wait if you go as two hours in some locations will result in traffic jammed roads which at that point you may be better off at home rather than stuck in traffic.

Most situations I would stay home but I also live in a less populated area and not near a major metropolitan city. Even so if things were getting to where martial law and restricted travel was being instituted in the more densely populated areas I would go to a predetermined basically unpopulated area and have the ability to transport my important supplies to where there would be no worry about confiscation or the panicked general masses being a threat.

It also does not hurt that the closest interstate to my area is over 60 miles away and my route if I did in fact need to bug out would be back county roads through no densely populated areas.

Always keep your mind open to adjust to the situation as the situation will not adjust to you! All your eggs in one predetermined basket may lead to all your eggs being broken!


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## booter

*Bugging in*

One of the most compelling reasons to have your provisions/supplies 'put-up ahead of the swarms' is 'when push comes to shove' and the shelves are emptying out fast. 'Those who lucked out and have', will be followed to their homes by 'those who have-nots' and now you've 
done the shopping for the Mutant Zombies to pick through at their leisure at your expense! Get real! and realize that you live on a razor's 
edge in today's society, things could, all of a sudden collapse/our Country implodes, and we are thrown back to the Middle Ages. Because 
then you will have to 'GO ALL MEDIEVAL' just to survive!


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## TotallyReady

I'm all about bugging in also but there are times when leaving is the only option such as a fire. It is a good idea to have a plan for what you would take and then assign a family member the be responsible for each item. Then you need to have a practice drill. Give yourself 10 minutes to get out the door and see how you do. This is also crucial as you may not have room in the vehicle for your treasures plus family and pets. If you practice you will know if you need to purchase a car top carrier for such emergency evacuations so you all fit.


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## Clarice

We will bug in. If we do go out we will be dressed down. Our vehicles are older but paid for. My husband keeps them in good condition. I don't think we will attract attention. We live in a rural area 7 mile from a small town. I have to believe we would be safer for a longer time than someone living in a big city.


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## Desertrat1

*Bug in or Out*

I think for most people they should plan on staying put, with bugging out as a last resort, because of flood, hurricane, violence etc. Your home can be your castle and is full of the things you need on a daily basis and you are familiar with your surroundings. When you bug-out you leave much of your assets behind and have to work with minimum equipment and supplies as well as put yourself into an area you may not be as familiar with and you don't know who is also looking to occupy the same area. Plan for both senarios so you aren't caught unprepared but IMHO stay put if at all possible.


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## Desertrat1

*response to Spike and Vfour*

Guys, i dont doubt that the administration will make efforts to SECURE the nation, however as a retired member of the US Military I have faith in our servicemembers doing the right thing. 75% of the US military is conservative and support our Bill of Rights. They are not sheeple and if you are not an unhinged lune you don't have too much to worry about. If you are running around in Camo and acting like some para military douchebag they will have your ass cleaned out in short order. I'm not going to take any crap from somebody that doesn't belong in my neighborhood and will make sure the sweet little old lady next door is perfectly safe but you won't see any obvious display of weaponry from me other than a side arm openly carried. It wont be taken, I may be questioned though, and that is OK. My neighbor is a local policeman and he too is pretty heavily armed and is too of the belief that we as neighbors look out for each other. I just believe that regardless of the nutcase in office our men and women in our military are good Americans that will not infringe upon our rights if we don't act like asses.


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## LincTex

Emerald said:


> Neighbor has a huge generator... run it at our house for a few hours to charge up the freezer


That is a huge waste of gas, whether he lets you pay or not, because of the excess size/capacity.

Freezers don't use a lot of electricity. You should get a small generator (2000 watt or so) so you have your own back-up source.


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## musketjim

*bugging in*

Be prepared to bug-in in case of martial law. After they can no longer pay the enforcers it will be every man or woman for themselves to get to your bugout location. Hopefully your location is still secure. Here in Alaska we are at the end of the supply chain. We watch with great interest the occupy thugs trying to shut down West Coast ports as most of our goods come from there. Just keep preparing as best you can.

The whole world sucks, America sucks a lot less, and Alaska don't suck at all.


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## turkeydog

UncleJoe said:


> Around here, every time there is snow in the forecast, stores are a circus. Every container of milk, carton of eggs and loaf of bread vanish from the shelves. The media loves to splash it all over the 11:00 news. How much would they enjoy their sensationalism if those shelves couldn't be restocked within a couple days? I really enjoy _watching_ it as opposed to being a part of it.


I still have this nagging feeling there is an unholy alliance between TV weathermen and the milk and bread industry. One winter in Charlotte, NC area they predicted significant snowfall 5 times in a row that all ended up in a bust. Each time the grocery stores went on a run.


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## turkeydog

*Hear, Hear!*



Desertrat1 said:


> Guys, i dont doubt that the administration will make efforts to SECURE the nation, however as a retired member of the US Military I have faith in our servicemembers doing the right thing. 75% of the US military is conservative and support our Bill of Rights. They are not sheeple and if you are not an unhinged lune you don't have too much to worry about. If you are running around in Camo and acting like some para military douchebag they will have your ass cleaned out in short order. I'm not going to take any crap from somebody that doesn't belong in my neighborhood and will make sure the sweet little old lady next door is perfectly safe but you won't see any obvious display of weaponry from me other than a side arm openly carried. It wont be taken, I may be questioned though, and that is OK. My neighbor is a local policeman and he too is pretty heavily armed and is too of the belief that we as neighbors look out for each other. I just believe that regardless of the nutcase in office our men and women in our military are good Americans that will not infringe upon our rights if we don't act like asses.


Right there with ya!:congrat:


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## Viking

In all the years of my life I have seen the rush on groceries, water, generators and other supplies just as emergency situations are coming on. It seems like no one is prepared even in areas that frequently have snow storms, floods, fires, hurricanes or tornadoes. Time and time again it's been shown that in general there is only about three days food supplies in large metropolitan areas. Often when panic buying goes on people become animals. Just as an aside look at what happens on Black Friday before Christmas and think about what would happen in a SHTF situation. I happen to live in an area that's quiet good for bugging in but I think it's possible to have some survival abilities in smaller towns, but as the population centers get larger so does the danger of living there. When I talk to people that are trying to have a survival plan one of the first things I tell them is the importance of having a large supply of water on hand. As shown time and again that's always the first thing that seems to come up short. So what I tell people, even if they have their own well, is to have a 1000 to 1500 gallon tank on their property. Pump into it and pull water from the tank into the home so that there is always fresh water in it. I even recommend this to town folks if they have a spot in their back yard and are on city water. If they can't have large water storage have some way to store it in crawl spaces, garages or whatever place they can. Even though we have a gravity flow spring system we found out how precious water is when the old system I had in the early 1990's froze solid for nearly a month and we had to get water from a friend about a half mile away. Of course stored food is vitally important but I really think that an uninterrupted supply of water is often underestimated.


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## HoppeEL4

Desertrat1, I am so glad to see someone somewhat nearby...

Bugging out? Not likely as things are right now. We do not own anything but our van, it is far from rough terrain friendly, though it could serve as a means to travel with goods, but still not enough. I have wanted a travel trailer for a while, but the husband is not fully on board, and I am unsure what our 6 cyinder could handle (have a hitch, has a 3500# capacity, but I don't think the van can actully handle that much...trailer packed with supplies?).

We live semi-country, in a smallish town near Mount Hood. Our place is small and unassuming, no major barn, no huge shop, so I felt we looked shabby and poor and of little interest to anyone wanting stuff, although I would make major effort to hide our supplies if SHTF. Truly, my only hiding place is the attic crawlspace...No one else in my immediate family owns a house right now, and the one that does, it is a small mobile home (my mother).

Of all my family, we have the most space, the best options and are the only ones with supplies and land to use for growing on. I can think of few scenarions that might come up that would warrant us to leave all we have stocked up behind. We live on a high ridge above a gorge, river full of fish in spring and fall, numerous water sources nearby (plus we have a well), good neighbors that know how to farm.

Our one concern is the packed development down the road that is full of sheeple (Snowboard and Subaru owning folks with manicures and pedicures and fake tans). However, I think they will all be running to government official when SHTF, thinking they will be saved.

I though about having some sheets of plywood so the garage my stock is in, can be full boarded up from within if needed. This might be the best defense for most situations. Getting out of town will not be tough we are close to huge amounts of forests and mountains, and also have some incredible maps with plenty of backroads that get you to places, most do not bother to know about.

We don't experience flooding in this high spot, maybe the occassional wind storm, some snow occassionally, no hurricanes, no tornadoes. Maybe there is the potential for earthquakes or volcanic activity....though I am most concerned about the human made "disasters" more than any natural ones.


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## a1paigep

*more than prepping*

One thing to think about (amongst the MANY others) is putting aside a bit more, if you are able, to use for barter. Everything will be valuable when folks are in need but the basics (salt, sugar, wheat, powdered milk, etc...) are especially important.


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## Viking

a1paigep said:


> One thing to think about (amongst the MANY others) is putting aside a bit more, if you are able, to use for barter. Everything will be valuable when folks are in need but the basics (salt, sugar, wheat, powdered milk, etc...) are especially important.


Absolutely, even things you may not have a need for and not even use. That might be items we don't consider a necessity such as cigarettes, booze and ammo that is of popular caliber but you don't use.


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## texican

The Golden Horde from Houston cleared the shelves hereabouts, during Hurricane Rita... and the storm wasn't even going to affect our area. It woke a lot of folks up to the fact grocery stores restock every day. Our shelves were empty for three, till deliveries could resume.

At that time, I was in town, picking up some of the usual stuff I get (fresh frozen luxury products).... after seeing the lines, I left. Wasn't diddly there that I absolutely had to have....

We're buggin in here...


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## kejmack

I think that survivalists in general put too much emphasis on having a BOL. The problem is if the SHTF really happens and it is bad you aren't going to be able to get there. People seem to think that they will be the only ones on the road or something. And what happens when you get to your BOL and someone beat you there???


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## Tweto

For the first 5 years as a survivalist I had a BOL, then I got smarter and moved to the country to my BOL. Now I'm retired and almost never leave, I have everything that I need right here. BO is good for people that want excitement. I'll stay here and be bored.


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## kejmack

I lived in Virginia when 9/11 occurred. My neighbor worked in DC and it took her 7 hours to drive the 40 miles from DC to home because of the gridlock that occurred. I realized then that there was no way I was going to get stuck like that trying to get to my BOL. People I talk to always brag about their BOL Bunkers but they never consider they may have to walk to get there or there might be 100,000+ other people clogging the roadway trying to escape, too.


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## Von Helman

I am fully aware of how fragile the food supply is, and I too plan on bugging in. To counter any need of dependence on the outside food supply I am constructing a rooftop food production system so if the SHTF I will not be too hungry.


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## HozayBuck

*I ain't "bugging" any place , I'm gonna be "Living" right here where I am.. I will change some things in my life.. like patrolling a bit..altho it's damn hard to move thru the E TX woods..so I guess LPOP is more like it.. our dogs alert us to most anything moving.. yes they can be poisoned.. or shot.. but we have plans for that..

I guess if you are living day to day as if the lights are out then your way ahead of everybody...

We are pretty much in a quiet area that won't attract attention from the Golden Hoard ..  I hope!! lol... *


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## jerodjacks

bugging in 4 shore 
there will be challenges though


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## Von Helman

Hozay Buck, 

That's the way to be, and I am the same way. I will be living right here the same way as I am now and doing pretty much the same except more increased vigilance on security 

I didn't build this place to run to the woods


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## Von Helman

jerodjacks said:


> bugging in 4 shore
> there will be challenges though


there will always be challenges regardless of what you do or what path you choose, but what challenges do you foresee in bugging in?


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## HozayBuck

Von Helman said:


> there will always be challenges regardless of what you do or what path you choose, but what challenges do you foresee in bugging in?


*For me I know I need to start working at "really" doing the garden thing and start living it daily right now.. I have the beans and bullets.. but there is so much more to it all... Shelter don't have to be a fort or even a house... if your dry and warm you will be ahead of most folks.. but growing food and having the knowledge to preserve it is about the most important issue to be faced for the first couple of years..

We live in an area where water isn't an issue, yea we've been in a drought but I know the ground water isn't so deep I can't hand dig a well.. do I want to? hell no lol.. we have a spring and 2 creeks that as a rule run at least a little bit even in the dead of the summer...

No the biggest impediment to survival is me getting off my dead ass and truly getting with the program... So there it is in a nut shell..I'm the big problem to my own survival...

So what am I going to do about it? I'm not saying.. because if I do say it and don't do it I'll really feel like crap... nope I'm gonna wait till I have something to show and tell then I will!!... no matter how small it may be.. it will be 100% improvement *


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## HoppeEL4

Thats an idea....getting stuff you may not use and bartering. I just realized that one way I could effectively make some alliances in the area, would be to have plenty to barter with. Making sure seeds are on that list. We also have a rototiller that the use could be bartered for to till up ground. As well, resources for immediate hunger needs too (will be storing up plenty of sealed packets of staples).

Since I do not have the handiest husband (well, not handy at all) bartering might be the way to get some help with projects and maybe other livestock.


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## jerodjacks

Von Helman said:


> there will always be challenges regardless of what you do or what path you choose, but what challenges do you foresee in bugging in?


i have a creek behind my house, plenty of food & protection, some luxuries.
the problem is low income housing at the end of our street. if it gets bad for very long i will have to deal with these folks
i am in Arllington, Texas.


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## AlabamaGal

HozayBuck said:


> For me I know I need to start working at "really" doing the garden thing and start living it daily right now.. I have the beans and bullets.. but there is so much more to it all... Shelter don't have to be a fort or even a house... if your dry and warm you will be ahead of most folks.. but growing food and having the knowledge to preserve it is about the most important issue to be faced for the first couple of years..


This is incredibly true and critical if you are planning on bugging in -- or even if you aren't, you might find yourself stuck without being able to get to your BOL.

I find it incredibly funny/sad when I see the cans of garden seeds for sale, as if all you had to do was drop some seeds onto a lawn and -- voila! -- instant farm! No book, nor collection of books, can tell you what you need to know about growing food on *your* little spot of dirt, with your special soil composition, microclimate, diseases, good and bad bugs, et cetera. You have to find out through trial and error.

The easier stuff, like trees, shrubs and perennials need time to get established. A walnut or pecan tree can take 15 years of produce, and the sooner you get in the ground the sooner it will be dropping fat and protein in your lap.


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## semperscott

I agree that bugging in would be the best. However I have had to move back to my parents place to help them due to both have recently had health issues and it will only get worse.

While my parents live in the country, the area they are in has homes quite close and some of those are what Southerns call "white trash". In case of SHTF most of them would raid the liquor stores and begin raiding anybody they think of as not their type.

I've bought property in a very rural area that you will not stumble across by accident. Their is a 300 ft. well on the property and other upgrades hold resources that I transport there on a weekly basis. 

If/when SHTF I will stay here as long as medical supplies hold out and then I fear shortly after that my wife and I will bug-out to our BOL. My kids all have the location and lists of what they are to bring. We will settle there and do whatever it takes to ensure we survive and if possible to help others in need.


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## jerodjacks

i have 5 mature pecan trees
& 
i worry about my parents also. the problem there is that they are about 4 miles away, prep with food also, but if I leave i feel my home would be raided


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## Viking

jerodjacks said:


> i have 5 mature pecan trees
> &
> i worry about my parents also. the problem there is that they are about 4 miles away, prep with food also, but if I leave i feel my home would be raided


My wife and I have talked about this and if we absolutely have to go to town one of us will stay home, if things get to where we feel it would be to dangerous for one then we will hunker in.


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## HoppeEL4

> I find it incredibly funny/sad when I see the cans of garden seeds for sale, as if all you had to do was drop some seeds onto a lawn and -- voila! -- instant farm!


Alabamagal....wouldn't that be kind of great? LOL.....Kind of a Jack-in-the-Beanstalk thing.

I recently bought some young fruit trees from my best friends husband who has a small nursery. He was so nice, I wound up with more than I bought. I have four apple, two pear a nectarine and I think he said a cherry tree. It will be a few before we see fruit from them, and of course it won't be much, but it's the beginning of something. Going out to the other end of town today to pick up some 2 year old blueberry bushes, probably get about four, these will produce, but they are not full sized yet, so it will be minimal. I have raspberry, but they seem to be fussy to deal with, we'll see how they do.

I have always wanted hazelnut trees, Oregon is queen of this in production, and we have our own native version growing all over the woods here too, but try and harvest those before the birds and squirrels get them all...

I have tried to help with walnuts after harvest..ugh they're a pain. My son-in-laws uncles farm in Willamette Valley is long term family owned and their ancestor planted two black walnut trees, they are just enormous (you can't even see the tops from below) and the outer hulls are all over the ground...wonder if they harvet those? Hmmm...he also raises cattle for beef.

Another source of food is old farms that had apple and pear trees. These properties will often be abandoned or you'll find the trees seemingly random in the woods (once and old farm), and if the tree is not diseased, and someone was in need, this is a source of nutrients, something to remember. Sometimes, though, the apples or pears, will be small due to the age of the tree, but are very edible, and good for making something from. We used to find wild rhubarb in the woods, go get some sugar and sit with our feet in the crick and chew on it.


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## Viking

HoppeEL4 said:


> Alabamagal....wouldn't that be kind of great? LOL.....Kind of a Jack-in-the-Beanstalk thing.
> 
> I recently bought some young fruit trees from my best friends husband who has a small nursery. He was so nice, I wound up with more than I bought. I have four apple, two pear a nectarine and I think he said a cherry tree. It will be a few before we see fruit from them, and of course it won't be much, but it's the beginning of something. Going out to the other end of town today to pick up some 2 year old blueberry bushes, probably get about four, these will produce, but they are not full sized yet, so it will be minimal. I have raspberry, but they seem to be fussy to deal with, we'll see how they do.
> 
> I have always wanted hazelnut trees, Oregon is queen of this in production, and we have our own native version growing all over the woods here too, but try and harvest those before the birds and squirrels get them all...
> 
> I have tried to help with walnuts after harvest..ugh they're a pain. My son-in-laws uncles farm in Willamette Valley is long term family owned and their ancestor planted two black walnut trees, they are just enormous (you can't even see the tops from below) and the outer hulls are all over the ground...wonder if they harvet those? Hmmm...he also raises cattle for beef.
> 
> Another source of food is old farms that had apple and pear trees. These properties will often be abandoned or you'll find the trees seemingly random in the woods (once and old farm), and if the tree is not diseased, and someone was in need, this is a source of nutrients, something to remember. Sometimes, though, the apples or pears, will be small due to the age of the tree, but are very edible, and good for making something from. We used to find wild rhubarb in the woods, go get some sugar and sit with our feet in the crick and chew on it.


 We have a lot of old farmsteads that no longer have people living on them here in S.W. Oregon and my wife and I have often picked huge amounts of apples from the trees. In just throwing out the apple cores in making juice and apple sauce we have had eight trees grow up. I cut down about three because they tasted awful and I have one more that has high sugar apples but doesn't taste all that good, I may just do some grafts of other good apples on that tree. One of the trees is the same as the mother tree and it's a great tasting transparent that get re blushes where the sun hits the apple. One of the other trees took years before it produced, it's short and spiky like Stark Spur apple trees are, but when it started producing the apples are so red that they look black on the tree they are sweet and tasty and sometimes the cores have a red tinge. Walnuts seem to grow like weeds around here, I've dumped walnuts on the ground one year and I had about a dozen trees start, I've even thrown walnuts into old rotted out tree trunk holes and there are saplings now growing.


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## AlabamaGal

HoppeEL4 said:


> I have four apple, two pear a nectarine and I think he said a cherry tree. It will be a few before we see fruit from them, and of course it won't be much, but it's the beginning of something. Going out to the other end of town today to pick up some 2 year old blueberry bushes, probably get about four, these will produce, but they are not full sized yet, so it will be minimal. I have raspberry, but they seem to be fussy to deal with, we'll see how they do.


I can only dream of happy cherry trees and raspberries here, but it's not warm enough for avocados or olives, darn it.

If you like blueberries, you're going to want more than 4 shrubs.  Didn't you say you had land that was an old blueberry farm? It sounds like blueberries might just love your soil and be a winner for you.



> I have always wanted hazelnut trees, Oregon is queen of this in production, and we have our own native version growing all over the woods here too, but try and harvest those before the birds and squirrels get them all...


Go out, find some root suckers and plant those. When the nuts start to ripen, cover the shrub with a very light shade cloth to keep the birds out.

I adore black walnuts, but you have to be prepared for the mess and the work of trying to get them cracked. If I had access to a lot of them, I would get a lever action cracker for sure.


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## HoppeEL4

Viking, I know a lot grows nicely down there. I know these old farms must have some old apple varieties on them, some good, some bad. My mother told me most of the old varieties were grown as cooking or pressing apples (sauce, pies of juice), but were not really good eating apples. Some older ones will be found to be mealy beyond wanting to use at all. I love granny smiths for pies, love the tartness tinge behind the sugar you add. I love Honey Crisps....wow, these are great, and sometimes if they have done good in Hood River, they will be just huge.

Alabamagal, I found out recently that a variety of pressing olive was being grown in the Willamette Valley in Oregon, only for oil, but that was exciting to me. I am sure things such as avacados could not be grown there, nor citrus, but goes to show there are always varieties of fruiting trees and such that can be grown in places you would not expect. I did buy an olive tree I need to get planted, but it will only ever be ornamental....sigh, wouldn't that be fun to have your own olive tree?


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## Viking

There are a number of reasons we started planting nut and fruit trees but the number one reason was that the combination of altitude (1,500') and too cool of summer nights had a detrimental effect on growing certain types of vegetables here. The second reason for having a large amount of nut and fruit trees was how costly it was getting to be for those nuts and fruits even when going to farmers markets. If we have excesses of harvests, which happens frequently with apples, we share them with others which sometimes ends up as a barter because they in turn give us eggs or other goodies. One other thing that grows great here is elephant garlic, we have a 10' X 30' patch that's been self reproducing for at least 15 years. We share this with others as well mainly because I like the small purple skinned garlic better.


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## AlabamaGal

HoppeEL4 said:


> My mother told me most of the old varieties were grown as cooking or pressing apples (sauce, pies of juice), but were not really good eating apples.


To some extent that's true; something you can preserve and comes off a tough, productive tree is more valuable on a working homestead than even the best keeper variety. Most of the "keepers" don't taste that great anyway. Still, one of the most popular apples is an heirloom -- Red Delicious. I find it mealy and tasteless, myself.

A lot, too, I think, it's simply that modern tastes are different. We expect our fruit to be juicier and exactly the "right" amount of crispness, but most especially it must be super sweet.


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## HoppeEL4

Alabamgal, I am from apple territory and apple people up here. There are lots of varieties that are really juicy. I too cannot stand the red delicious, they get mealy only after they have been in cold storage too long, but if fresh (as we can actually get up here) they are juicy, I just do not like the skin (too thick and leathery) and it is overtly sweet.

Mcintoshs are one of my favorites, juicy, a little tangy and thin skinned, they are an heirloom variety, and grow like gangbusters here. Pippins too. Then there is my favorite bred apple, Honey Crisp. Unbelievable apple. Grown here at least, they can get to be very large.

The amount of varieties and variations are huge. To my knowledge a lot of the really good heirloom varieties are coming back.


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## Viking

The great thing about some of the heirloom varieties is that they are often resistant to diseases, heartiness is an important factor for your own orchards. Things that will stand up to extreme cold or heat, here in our valley we often have late spring frosts that can kill blossoms so it does help to have trees that delay blossoming a bit.


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## AlabamaGal

I guess it depends on where you are, Viking. Very few of the heirlooms will do well here because it's just not cold enough for them in the winter to be happy. Plus not enough cold to knock back the pests hard, and they don't care for our soil. So for this location, ones that have been bred specifically for this kind of climate are a better bet. A few, like Arkansas Black, Fuji and Granny Smith, do well in the professionally run orchards, but I've noticed that our only commercial shipping apple producer nearby is slowly switching to modern southern US varieties, presumably because they'll do better with less work. 

You won't see many apple trees in backyards, but go north or west a couple of states and they are all over. Some of the crabapples do okay -- the *original* heirlooms. I have Hopa and Dolgo crabs, which are better known for their fruit production. Also Fuji and Granny Smith, but neither are doing well.

Pears on the other hand, are practically bulletproof here. Too bad I don't like pears.


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## HoppeEL4

Too bad Alabamagal, pears are one of our favorites up here. Do peaches or nectarines do well down there?


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## AlabamaGal

Oh yeah -- this is the South. Peaches love it here. They do need to be sprayed or bagged. I don't care for wormy fruit, myself.


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## HoppeEL4

We can grow them here, but I understand it is tricky, I think it has something to do with too much moisture, rotting off before they can be picked....I don't know, I can't remember. I did get a nectarine tree from my best friends hubbys nursery stock. I am hoping it does well, because I love nectarines (bowl of cut up nectarines with cut up strawberries....


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## musketjim

In response to Desertrat1 (08-03-2010). During Katrina people had their guns confiscated and not returned (NRA is still fighting that one). Military will do as directed if they are told it is a temporary situation, promotions and careers are based on efficiency and compliance. For those who may not feel inclined to violate the Constitution to follow these orders, if they have families, it is amazing what they will do to protect and provide for them, just as anyone else would do.


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## BillS

We're bugging in. We live in a small town. We have all our supplies here. When the time comes me and my stepson will take turns guarding the place 24/7. Hopefully we can hide in plain sight here.


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## NaeKid

Tirediron said:


> Last time I took a snowplow saftey course , the road authority rep said that with the 1 1/2 day (average) stock rotation plan in most major grocery store chains that it was policy to keep the highways open unless the plows got stuck . the 1 1/2 day supply is for a normal day not when there is an emergency. If SHTF and you don't have it , just forget you wanted it. :gaah:


The local grocery-store here has a longer rotational plan - I can go in there and buy-out all their frozen shrimp-rings on Friday and go back every single day to buy some more and there will be none for almost two weeks! No fresh fish (at all) and "specialty-items" might be on a 4 week rotation for restocking. Stuff that I normally can purchase huge bulk of in the "big city" I can't even find around here.

:dunno:


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## Viking

BillS said:


> We're bugging in. We live in a small town. We have all our supplies here. When the time comes me and my stepson will take turns guarding the place 24/7. Hopefully we can hide in plain sight here.


This is what we are planning only it will be a watch system including our neighbors, who are on the same wave length. Believe me we are so thankful to have such good neighbors because I have friends that live a few miles down the road that have a neighbor from hell.


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## HoppeEL4

> I have friends that live a few miles down the road that have a neighbor from hell.


Always seems to be one in each neighborhood..scary thing is to multiply that by how many neighborhoods in America (or Canada).

I am glad I am away from the more heavily populated region around here. I felt like sitting ducks down there. In fact a recent arrest was posted in the paper, two guys caught on drugs and weapons charges, both big time dealers, one of them lived in the complex we just moved from a little bit ago..you know there's gotta be a whole lot more out there they have just not caught yet.

Bugging in, yes I could be low key, and it would work here. We have few neighbors, and all seem like people I could band together with (some I know from growing up here). Lots of older neighbors, who are not afraid to have and use guns, and have lots of experience under their belts.


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## pixieduster

Wildman: been thinking about the camper too, with the kids and all< would be ideal except for the fuel. Im bugging in unless I absolutely have to, like if Im going to be washed away or over run. I feel comfortable with what I have that we would be ok. If my garden isnt wiped out then we are doing even better. And hey, we are neighbors! If whatever hits me then it hits you too, a camping everybody will go.


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## LongRider

I have long been of the opinion that prepping, stock piling goods is at best a short term solution. Long term it will only prolong the inevitable. Those that plan on bugging out to some remote wilderness location to build a self sustaining homestead with what they can carry in their BOB or load up in the BOV are due for a series of rude awakenings. A true survivor is either already self sustaining able to life comfortably off grid or is working towards that goal. Preps and stock piling goods is an important/critical first step but it is by no means the be all end all of long term survival in a post apocalyptic world


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## kappydell

my prep partner & I are also bugging in. our only concern right now is a neighbor with 'nose trouble'...no job, but always there 'fishing' for info every time we work on our garden....'where are you planting potatoes?"..."are you planting asparagus?"..."now my wife made me go work on the yard and its all your fault"...
we have a kind of suspicioun he will be the first one over to help himself after we turn down the 'opportunity' to help him; also that he will be the first one to rat us out if he thinks we have anything worth ratting on.....oh well. At least there is just one like that, and we sincerely hope he will run away if things get tough (we will be pushing the idea that he needs to go to a relocation camp 'for the sake of the kids'.....)


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## BlueShoe

HarleyRider said:


> I am also in the process of picking up a camper as a BOV and "second home". I will also be bugging in since my new place upon retirement will be in the hills of Tennessee and away from most of the sheeple. There are also a couple of caves nearby that might prove useful. Plenty of game and fresh water in the area and some good soil to grow crops. :melikey:


Not sure if I've said this before, but hills of Tn might as well be written as meth lab in the woods. It's the new cash crop in TN. I just saw an article in which people are using caves for meth labs in TN. This activity goes back to prohibition days and you don't want to be in the way of someone's income stream. You getting there first means nothing to them especially when they know everyone in the county. 
Yrs ago I saw another online article detailing how illegal aliens are being seen/caught in rural areas muling drugs. This included National Parks and Forests, causing a bajillion percent increase in felony activity in those areas. Plus everyone in TN knows ten people with 30 to a 100 rifles, all wearing camo and night vision is common with all the reserve soldiers returning items from the warzones.
The poorest counties in the state are full of people with no jobs, 16 to 26% official unemployment, but they have gas powered 4 wheelers for the whole family parked outside the shack.

It's not all that new. In the early 1980s Nat Geo magazine detailed how marijuana was the 4th cash crop in TN. You don't know how close you are to the illegal plantings and you don't want to happen across them in your travelings.

I think the main reason for bugging in would be not driving into a travel bottle-neck of any one of a dozen official or unofficial "check points" where you're stopped behind 400 other vehicles with no way to exit/turn around and having to allow a search of your vehicle/property. Have you noticed all the cable guard rails going up on the highways and interstates over the past couple yrs? You can't drive across them unless they're cut down.


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## BillS

LongRider said:


> I have long been of the opinion that prepping, stock piling goods is at best a short term solution. Long term it will only prolong the inevitable. Those that plan on bugging out to some remote wilderness location to build a self sustaining homestead with what they can carry in their BOB or load up in the BOV are due for a series of rude awakenings. A true survivor is either already self sustaining able to life comfortably off grid or is working towards that goal. Preps and stock piling goods is an important/critical first step but it is by no means the be all end all of long term survival in a post apocalyptic world


That's all true. I just don't expect a post-collapse world to last forever. I expect the government in some form to regain control of what's left of the country. I expect the collapse to be due to hyperinflation. Once OPEC doesn't accept dollars anymore we'll be toast. The US imports 70% of its oil but if you're left with 1/4 or 1/10 the current population we'd no longer be importing oil. So assuming the collapse is due to hyperinflation and not due to a solar flare or EMP things will get back on track eventually. I expect the collapse to transition into the one-world government prophesied in Revelation.

Even if I didn't think that, I can't farm where I live. Like a lot of people, I don't have the money to move to somewhere I can farm. Even if I could farm where I am, I've never grown anything. I know next to nothing about subsistence farming without machinery. I'm also a type-2 diabetic on all kinds of medications but not insulin.


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## BlueShoe

Good point. The proposed purchase of Iranian oil in the form of gold is not regulated under the sanctions demanded by the USA, Israel and the UN. China and Russia deal with Iran on oil quite a bit. China has outlined a plan to purchase oil for gold since it's not in the sanctions. The date is supposed to be June 28th for this transaction. Once that happens, the precedent is set for oil transactions other than dollars. 
Also, if you remember, there was a drop dead date demanded by Israel to go into Iran or they would attack on their own which I don't remember exactly, but it's either June or July of this year. Look for something to begin at that time unless there are changes in the Iranian position or the delay of gold for oil purchase which puts pressure on gas/oil prices and international relations. I'm not saying this will cause you to bug out. The fuse is just continuing to smolder.


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## stayingthegame

bugging in here. think about it.... if you bug out where do you go????? till you get to YOUR place, you could be on MINE. and then you might be staying permanently. 6 foot under. you don't know who will let you thru and who might be dangerous. during Katrina, the Gretna police would not let ANY one across the Mississippi bridge. they were turned back to a flooded city in great upheaval. this will happen in many areas. what would you have done? what would you DO?


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## LeSellers

Some have made the point that water is a key element to survival in an emergency. We had a main break a few months ago, and it only took a few hours to repair. But those few hours were dismal for people, especially those with smallish children and the sick. 

Theoretically ( a four-letter word no matter how you spell it), you can live with a gallon of water a day. Maybe for a day or two, but not for even a week: you gotta wash the dishes, if nothing else. Life would not be the same(tm). 

We have six, fifty-five gallon drums in the garage for the two of us. As long as we can keep it liquid, we're fine. The fifty or so two-litter bottles will carry us over the hump when the barrels are temporarily filled with ice.


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## recon-1

Staying put! No other place to go. Plus we have a lot of bridges here in central PA. They will probably close most of them anyway.


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## HoppeEL4

I think it can be the best thing to stay put if you feel your area is safe enough to do so. If I were right in the middle of a huge city, I'd want out ASAP, even if I were in a large metro suburb, I'd head for the hills, but if you have a semi-rural to rural home, stay put.


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## mojo4

I have family in the way out sticks and depending on how bad things get we might head there. I'm planning on staying in my home though for as long as possible. I can turn my yard into a garden pretty easily and with the food we have and a huge garden we can stay well fed for a long time, the only thing that would make us leave would be massive food hungry crowds after us but in my area that would be doubtful as it is a very republican take care of your own business and I will take care of mine area.


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## Outback_Joe

We have bugged out to our bug in location, as of May 2012. Sold everything at our last location in Salem Oregon quit our jobs and are now in the mountains of southern Oregon in a 40'x40' pole barn (shop) living in our RV and part of the shop. I have just seen too many things in the past 2 years that lead me to think that something is going to happen in the next 2 to 3 years. We have saved to do this move for many, many years and it was time to pull the plug. Its damn scary to sell everything and move to a new area and away from what we knew. Since we have been here a month and are establishing a few connections in the area I wish that we could have done this before now. 

To everyone trying to get away from the sheepple, keep up the good work! It will be worth the effort. For those that are planning to bug in - in there current locations, stock as much as you can and remember we are all going to get thru what ever the future has in store for us, one way or the other.


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## HoppeEL4

Outback Joe, good for you. Wish we could do something similar. I love Eastern OR...Lived in Burns for some time, just love the pace of life, the way of life and the people over there. Been on the wet side due to jobs. Now pay is stagnant, but now our oldest is married and have two kids, and other family connections, makes it hard to want to be away from that all. Times get bad, we all will need each other, so we have to stay put.

Besides, we don't have an RV and won't probably ever, just simple camping gear. However, a lifetime of playing the the woods, I am queen of building tight little shelters out of woodsy materials, so if we had to, get out of town, pitch tents, and then build cammo shelters over them and around them...otherwise we would stay at home, we live just outside a smaller town.


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## TheLazyL

Daughter and son-in-law live on the east coast. 

Son and daughter-in-law live on the west coast. 

Wife and I live in the rural Midwest. At our age my only choice is to bug in. Figure it would be to dangerous for the "kids" to try and come home. 

We do have some not so close neighbors that could organize for a early threat warning but our best bet would to keep a very very very low profile.


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## TheLazyL

BillS said:


> We're bugging in. We live in a small town. We have all our supplies here. When the time comes me and my stepson will take turns guarding the place 24/7. Hopefully we can hide in plain sight here.


12 hours on 12 hours off?

12 hours off - 8 hours sleep = 4 hours for food procurement, heat gathering, gardening, household chores, care of pets, laundry, personal hygiene and defense building.

IMHO you will be worn down to a frazzle in short order.


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## LongRider

Living in the sticks spending the last decade becoming self sustaining we have little need to go anywhere. Our primary concerns are those bugging out or the unprepared masses invading our territory. For them we have a security plan in place. The other is power, as of now we are good for about two years, hopefully in the next few years we will produce enough power to sustain us. So that even if TEOTWAWKI happens we will be able to maintain our current way of life.


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## Tnfarmgirl

We have spent the past few days talking about bugging out..we plan on staying put unless something like a huge fire or something happens...we live in a small farm in rural tennessee...We have water...are adding on to our solar system and plan on building a Zero Energy cabin within the next year...Our farm house will then be available for our ever growing family...


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## TheLazyL

I live more than 1 vehicle gas tank away from any large Metropolitan area.

I live in a woods with drinking water readily available.

At my age I can't not carry 160 pound back pack (mine and the wife's).

Wife's idea of roughing it is staying in a 4 star hotel.

So my options are: Bugging in.


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## Ration-AL

i think everyone would bug in if they had the option, i know i;'d prefer to still be sleeping in my bed and have my long term store available to me, that would be awesome, but i don't really prep for bugging in as that's just too easy, i plan for bugging out as that's the worst case/last resort scenario ..

when SHTF goes down i'll try my best to help and hold the area with my neighbors but i am not fighting to the death over a piece of land and bits of wood, i will be out the back and into the fray when the time is right and i think we all need to plan for that, not planning a contingency plan or a means of escape will lead to death for alot of us, some may get lucky but the likely hood of us getting over run is pretty high , after all it's a game of number and the "have not's" have alot more people than the "have so's" and am sure that a group of 20-30 people can come up with a reason that sounds good enough to kill a family for their food in their minds....

also think about this lets say you live next to a small city of 100k people even if 1% of that makes it out and the 30 miles to you, you then have 1,000 people in your neighborhood all of the sudden......unless you live in a very very remote place i would have a bug out plan in place as a secondary at least, just because you live rural doesn't mean your not going to get swarmed by the city dwellers fleeing the mayhem.....really i can cover 30 miles a day traveling as a city dweller would along surface streets and such, so even if your 100 miles out you could start seeing people as early as 3-4 days after SHTF......30-50-100 miles isn't much at all.....

with that though, bugging in is the best option if you can, it's what i'm shooting for but i'm planning on is bugging out.....


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## LongRider

Outback_Joe said:


> We have bugged out to our bug in location, as of May 2012.


Congratulations on your move. May your new endeavor be successful. Your new way of life be as filled with joys as ours has been. It has been the most liberating empowering thing we have ever done. When you get to the place that you have grown, harvested, gathered hunted, canned, preserved and prepared everything at the dinner table you will experience a sense of satisfaction, pride and freedom like nothing you have known before. At least that was the case for me. May that day come soon for you



Ration-AL said:


> i think everyone would bug in if they had the option, i know i;'d prefer to still be sleeping in my bed and have my long term store available to me, that would be awesome, but i don't really prep for bugging in as that's just too easy, i plan for bugging out as that's the worst case/last resort scenario ..
> 
> when SHTF goes down i'll try my best to help and hold the area with my neighbors but i am not fighting to the death over a piece of land and bits of wood, i will be out the back and into the fray when the time is right and i think we all need to plan for that, not planning a contingency plan or a means of escape will lead to death for alot of us, some may get lucky but the likely hood of us getting over run is pretty high , after all it's a game of number and the "have not's" have alot more people than the "have so's" and am sure that a group of 20-30 people can come up with a reason that sounds good enough to kill a family for their food in their minds....
> 
> also think about this lets say you live next to a small city of 100k people even if 1% of that makes it out and the 30 miles to you, you then have 1,000 people in your neighborhood all of the sudden......unless you live in a very very remote place i would have a bug out plan in place as a secondary at least, just because you live rural doesn't mean your not going to get swarmed by the city dwellers fleeing the mayhem.....really i can cover 30 miles a day traveling as a city dweller would along surface streets and such, so even if your 100 miles out you could start seeing people as early as 3-4 days after SHTF......30-50-100 miles isn't much at all.....
> 
> with that though, bugging in is the best option if you can, it's what i'm shooting for but i'm planning on is bugging out.....


Good points. Pretty much outlines our plan. We selected property that is defensible and lucked out that our very few neighbors are of like mind who joined with us to create a workable defensive plan. We have spent a decade making our home a secure self sustaining sanctuary but if we are overwhelmed with no chance, there is a million acres of pristine wilderness adjoining our property that we have an escape route with caches enroute to a secondary location. If pursued Plan Z is to make it to our sail boat and follow the coast until we can find safe harbor. Past that is take as many of them to hell with me as I can.


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## BillS

TheLazyL said:


> 12 hours on 12 hours off?
> 
> 12 hours off - 8 hours sleep = 4 hours for food procurement, heat gathering, gardening, household chores, care of pets, laundry, personal hygiene and defense building.
> 
> IMHO you will be worn down to a frazzle in short order.


We live in a small town. No garden. We have a year's supply of food and water in our basement. We have kerosene heaters. No wood gathering. We have cats. Feeding them, giving them water, and cleaning their litter box takes 15 minutes a day max. Sure a few household chores will take some time. Maybe an hour a day. Mainly I'll hang around the house. I'll read or play on my iPad or watch an old TV program on my iPad. And keep my gun handy at all times.

I expect it to be a lot like being a cop: hours of sheer boredom interrupted by minutes of sheer terror.


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## hiwall

If the electric grid is down,we have no choice but to leave our home and go to a permanent water source. We have a plan and a RV and several close(15-25 miles) spots picked out that do not require a main highway to get to. Yes I could store some water(and I do) but you can only store so much and it will run out.


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## LongRider

BillS said:


> We have a year's supply of food and water in our basement.


So what happens after a year of self imposed imposed imprisonment.


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## BillM

*I agree*



BillS said:


> We live in a small town. No garden. We have a year's supply of food and water in our basement. We have kerosene heaters. No wood gathering. We have cats. Feeding them, giving them water, and cleaning their litter box takes 15 minutes a day max. Sure a few household chores will take some time. Maybe an hour a day. Mainly I'll hang around the house. I'll read or play on my iPad or watch an old TV program on my iPad. And keep my gun handy at all times.
> 
> I expect it to be a lot like being a cop: hours of sheer boredom interrupted by minutes of sheer terror.


If there is a total collapse of the financial system resulting in empty store shelves nationwide and a shutdown of the grid , a lot of the population will die.

Some will die in riots and of homicide, some from lack of medical care , starvation, dehydration and injurys and sickness that will follow.

In six months time 50% of the population will be gone. In a year maybe as many as 90% will sucomb.

The remaining population will not have to raid or steal from anyone to get the things they need. There will be plenty of stuff and plenty of land to take because no one will be alive to defend it or claim it.

I think you and I will be just fine staying home. I'm too old to move again anyway.


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## mojo4

And where will you go? Katrina was a local event so go to Dallas or LA or Omaha and everything is fine. But if its nationwide?? Nope, I can slowly starve at home better than under a tarp in the forest. At least my mattress is nice and soft! And with 2 little ones my survival rate on the road with hostiles willing to kill you just to see if you have anything? I give us about 2 to 3 days realistically. Nope, defend the home fort cause option B completely blows.


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## HoppeEL4

I have to believe cities and suburbs will be bad places to be, but if you appear to have nothing, you might be ok. Hide, hide. hide all your stuff.

I am thinking we might be in a good place where we live, close to a river (fish in spring and fall) we have deer roaming around sometimes even in our front yard, wild rabbits around, if its summer, blackberries EVERYWHERE (have you seen western Oregon in summer?) and other edibles. So truthfully people will have resources to go to and I think we could safely protect our own stock. I do plan to hide stuff and to stock up more and have been encouraging family to do the same. 

Our main issue is the adult kids and our oldest with her family, we'll need to accomodate them, as where they live is not good. Lord this is not a huge place (just over 1,000 square feet)...guess we would wind up with beds in the living area. However I plan to have enough to accomodate them all and then enough chickens for eggs and some for meat (then send the guys out for fish and other meats eventually).

also plan to have lots of seeds on hand, we have plenty of land at our disposal.


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## BillS

LongRider said:


> So what happens after a year of self imposed imposed imprisonment.


I expect the collapse to be temporary. I expect the government to have regained control of the country by then.

I also live in town. I don't have the money to buy a farm in a remote area.

I'm also a diabetic on all kinds of medications except insulin. I have an extra month's supply of most of my medications but that's about it. My long-term health doesn't look good.

But to keep it simple, I'm like a lot of preppers: I'm prepared for the short-term but because of my location and finances it's not possible for me to have a self-sustaining life-style.


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## BillS

HoppeEL4 said:


> I have to believe cities and suburbs will be bad places to be, but if you appear to have nothing, you might be ok. Hide, hide. hide all your stuff.
> 
> I am thinking we might be in a good place where we live, close to a river (fish in spring and fall) we have deer roaming around sometimes even in our front yard, wild rabbits around, if its summer, blackberries EVERYWHERE (have you seen western Oregon in summer?) and other edibles. So truthfully people will have resources to go to and I think we could safely protect our own stock. I do plan to hide stuff and to stock up more and have been encouraging family to do the same.
> 
> Our main issue is the adult kids and our oldest with her family, we'll need to accomodate them, as where they live is not good. Lord this is not a huge place (just over 1,000 square feet)...guess we would wind up with beds in the living area. However I plan to have enough to accomodate them all and then enough chickens for eggs and some for meat (then send the guys out for fish and other meats eventually).
> 
> also plan to have lots of seeds on hand, we have plenty of land at our disposal.


I would expect that after the collapse your area will be filled with hungry people. All the wild foods will be picked. All the game will be killed and eaten. People will cut down trees so they can burn the wood for cooking and heating. Given the total societal breakdown you won't be safe even if it looks like you don't have anything. I wouldn't trust hiding your supplies either. I think the best thing is to keep your stuff at home and have guns to guard it.


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## LongRider

BillM said:


> If there is a total collapse of the financial system resulting in empty store shelves nationwide and a shutdown of the grid , a lot of the population will die.
> 
> Some will die in riots and of homicide, some from lack of medical care , starvation, dehydration and injurys and sickness that will follow.
> 
> In six months time 50% of the population will be gone. In a year maybe as many as 90% will sucomb.
> 
> The remaining population will not have to raid or steal from anyone to get the things they need. There will be plenty of stuff and plenty of land to take because no one will be alive to defend it or claim it.
> 
> I think you and I will be just fine staying home. I'm too old to move again anyway.


Do you have any examples of that? That is not what happened in Bosnia, or Sudan. Bosnia was off grid for years, in Sudan its been decades. Al Qaeda is still exterminating Christian villages


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## LincTex

LongRider said:


> Do you have any examples of that? That is not what happened in Bosnia, or Sudan. Bosnia was off grid for years, in Sudan its been decades.


Those are countries that are not all that technologically advanced. The more you rely on technology, comfort and standard of living.... the harder the fall.

If you are living in a country that has barely any modern conveniences, and then those are lost... life gets harder, yes. But, they have other ways to get around them and still live their lives.

We are so soft in this country... I know people in the USA that if you took their cell phone, computer and all electricity away from for a week, they would panic.


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## hiwall

"We are so soft in this country... I know people in the USA that if you took their cell phone, computer and all electricity away from for a week, they would panic. "

Without power - in winter many would freeze to death - in cities many would die from thirst.


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## LincTex

Actually...



BillS said:


> I would expect that after the collapse your area will be filled with hungry people. All the wild foods will be picked. All the game will be killed and eaten. People will cut down trees so they can burn the wood for cooking and heating. Given the total societal breakdown you won't be safe even if it looks like you don't have anything.


This is EXACTLY what happened in Bosnia


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## Tweto

LincTex said:


> Those are countries that are not all that technologically advanced. The more you rely on technology, comfort and standard of living.... the harder the fall.
> 
> If you are living in a country that has barely any modern conveniences, and then those are lost... life gets harder, yes. But, they have other ways to get around them and still live their lives.
> 
> *We are so soft in this country... I know people in the USA that if you took their cell phone, computer and all electricity away from for a week, they would panic.*




One week??? Are you sure about that???

Twitter went down for a few hours the other day and people were in full panic mode in 1 hour.

If all communications, TV, radio, internet, went down, I think it would only take about 4 hours.


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## pixieduster

Tweto said:


> One week??? Are you sure about that???
> 
> Twitter went down for a few hours the other day and people were in full panic mode in 1 hour.
> 
> If all communications, TV, radio, internet, went down, I think it would only take about 4 hours.


Could you imagine all the teenagers crying in panic if Facebook went down? Lol! Even for as little as 24 hours? I thinking how peaceful it would be to have no phone, no computers, but sad because those who can't count money wouldn't be able to do cash transactions.


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## LincTex

Tweto said:


> One week??? Are you sure about that??? Twitter went down for a few hours the other day and people were in full panic mode in 1 hour. If all communications, TV, radio, internet, went down, I think it would only take about 4 hours.


I should have clarified... I am talking about adults. i.e., Grown-ups (supposedly)....people with big SUV's and 2-3 years into their "most recent" 30 year mortgages. And have their iPhone on them 24/7. They are parents.

I don't know any teenagers well enough to know how they would react. But having mature "adults" freaking out is what will be far, far, *far* more dangerous.


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## LongRider

LincTex said:


> Those are countries that are not all that technologically advanced. The more you rely on technology, comfort and standard of living.... the harder the fall.
> 
> If you are living in a country that has barely any modern conveniences, and then those are lost... life gets harder, yes. But, they have other ways to get around them and still live their lives.
> 
> We are so soft in this country... I know people in the USA that if you took their cell phone, computer and all electricity away from for a week, they would panic.


You may want to do some research. Check out shtfschool.com for some real world accounts of what it is to have SHTF in a modern city. Bosnia's cities were as modern as any in the U.S. just because a country has existed for thousands of years before the US was discovered does not make it backward. Hope you are not under the delusion that the US is still the most technologically advanced nation on earth. That boat sailed long ago. 
That said your post did not address what I had asked. I asked BillM if there was any evidence that SHTF will play out the way he said.


BillM said:


> In six months time 50% of the population will be gone. In a year maybe as many as 90% will sucomb.
> 
> The remaining population will not have to raid or steal from anyone to get the things they need. There will be plenty of stuff and plenty of land to take because no one will be alive to defend it or claim it.


That cities will be safe because 50% to 90% of the population will be gone within a year and will become a land of abundant resources free for the picking. Is contrary to everything I have read.


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## LincTex

LongRider said:


> d.
> That cities will be safe because 50% to 90% of the population will be gone within a year and will become a land of abundant resources free for the picking. Is contrary to everything I have read.


I have to agree here... NEVER any free pickings. 
Gangs will build in numbers and will compete for resources. 
"Join a gang or get out" is most likely what will happen... for a while anyways.

When the resources are entirely used up they will have to bring them in from somewhere, and if they can't bring them in they will no longer be a force to deal with. That is when they will be vulnerable to a stronger outside force. There won't be much left for any outside force to obtain, though.


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## LongRider

BillS said:


> I expect the collapse to be temporary. I expect the government to have regained control of the country by then.
> 
> I also live in town. I don't have the money to buy a farm in a remote area.
> 
> I'm also a diabetic on all kinds of medications except insulin. I have an extra month's supply of most of my medications but that's about it. My long-term health doesn't look good.
> 
> But to keep it simple, I'm like a lot of preppers: I'm prepared for the short-term but because of my location and finances it's not possible for me to have a self-sustaining life-style.


I am not as optimistic as you. It was only a few years ago that we came literally within hours of a total economic collapse. The fed could barely handle Katrina.

I dunno exactly what you economic status is but if you can afford a home in the city you can easily afford land in the country. Rural homes and rent is far less than cities (less demand) . Of course you may have to pay a price, my wife works in health care. Healing is part of who she is, so she refused to give up her job. So for six years she commuted seven hours a day to make this happen for us. Meaning she had fifteen hour work days. If you ever ask her, she will tell you it was worth it. It is all about priorities.

You don't need a big farm nor do you need to jump all in. Rather let it be a process, a small garden and a chicken or two. Than grow learn and gain experience from there. For us it has been a ten years process and we are still growing and learning. The process has its own benefits a healthier more satisfying way of living and thinking.

As far as being diabetic have you tried natural remedies and diet? I know several people who have their diabetes in check with diet alone. Others with herbal medicine. If you try either be sure to have a doctor supervise it, one that is not hostile to natural options and alternative medicine. You don't want a herbal store quack making health decisions for you. Baring that and I could be wrong but will confirm if you like. I think there is something like powdered insulin that can be stored indefinitely. Like I said I could be way off base.

No matter what route you take I wish you the best of luck and a long healthy life.


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## pixieduster

LongRider said:


> Rural homes and rent is far less than cities (less demand) . Of course you may have to pay a price, my wife works in health care. Healing is part of who she is, so she refused to give up her job. So for six years she commuted seven hours a day to make this happen for us. Meaning she had fifteen hour work days. If you ever ask her, she will tell you it was worth it. It is all about priorities.


We did just that. Move to a rural area. Work 12 hour shifts and have a 1.5 hour drive one way. 15 hour day. The DH worked the same but opposite shift rotation so somebody is always home with the kiddos. Tiring. You betcha. And we do miss our time together. We keep in mind that its temporary and for the best. A sacrifice if you will. Small house on a big lot means less to cool/heat. More room to garden. The kids can play outside with no traffic and little worry for me.


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## BillM

*The Estimate*



LongRider said:


> Do you have any examples of that? That is not what happened in Bosnia, or Sudan. Bosnia was off grid for years, in Sudan its been decades. Al Qaeda is still exterminating Christian villages


The estimate is mine but here is what I am basing it on, in 1929 the USA went in to a great depression. This depression was actually a worldwide depression. It was worse in Europe than here in the USA.

The world's population in 1929 was two billion people.

The population is now seven billion and it will at the present rate double in about fourteen years.

In the USA in 1929 83% of the people were either directly or indirectly employed in agriculture.

In 2012 only 2% of the U S population is directly or indirectly involved in agriculture.

During the Great depression , while there was not much money, most people still had the means and the ability to grow their own food and were already doing so on a regular basis.

Now two percent of the U S population feed the rest of us.

The distribution system and the crop base were local and distributors of food and other staples kept large inventories on hand at each location.

Now Sigma Six ,(The just in time Japanese inventory system ) has replaced the out moded store room behind the grocery.

With no stock available, (except what is on display) and no functioning interstate commerce, (no trucks running).

Our already over populated country will begin to starve quickly. Anarchy and pandemic illness will follow quickly to kill of our largely helpless population.

There will be a lot of equipment and land left to those who survive the first year, (winter will be the hardest).

Where am I wrong here? :dunno:


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## HoppeEL4

Longrider, the issue of cheap rent in the country, not so much here. Some places it is, but where we are it is more desirable, people are willing to commute in order to be out of town, and so rents are higher than you'd expect, so are property prices.

As for who will do what when SHTF, and how people will react, I think everyone here has a different situation that warrants them alone to decide what to do in that scenario,stay or go. I believe firmly, where I am, knowing the kind of people around here and the way people are here, that those who I see as recent in country migrants (people who have moved in from out of state) will flock towards town, they are unfamiliar with how to do much other than to shop for what they want.

As for how to guard our own place, we plan on guns. I also know I have family around who has guns, and plenty of hiding locations, so am not worried about that. 

As for others clearing things out here, not possible...have you seen this area of Oregon? All we have is trees as far as the eyes can see, abundant rivers and an overpopulation of deer (they wander into our small town and graze on lawns there are so many). The resources here are huge and our populations here are minimal compared to midwest and east coast states (Oregon is over 97,000 square miles with a population of just over 3.8 million, most of which are located within the Willamette Valley region (not where we're at). This means there is 39.9 persons per square mile here, compared to say Illinois, with a population of 12.8 million, at over 55,000 square miles, that is about 231 person per sqaure mile. More, than not, east coast and midwest states are as heavily populated. 

No one person can live in an idea location if SHTF, you will eventually come into contact with others and must deal with them. I am a person of complete faith and believe my Creator will be there with me and my family and see that we will be safe. Sure He expects me to be smart and prepared for things, but I know I am in His hands for all else I cannot plan for or expect.


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## db2469

I cancelled my message...


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## mojo4

Well db, its because evil people have been demanding God out of schools, God out of courtrooms (the Alabama judge who had the 10 commandments in his courtroom) and demanding God out of everything. Unfortunately he has agreed and now we are left to our own devices. So next time they pray before a high school fotball game or a graduation and the evil demand they don't and the administration agree...... remember my words brother!! You can't blame God for sh!t happening to you when your whole life you have told him to go away!!!


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## db2469

I cancelled my message..


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## LongRider

HoppeEL4 said:


> Longrider, the issue of cheap rent in the country, not so much here.


You make a valid point I have family down your way, Portland, Gresham and Roseberg. Down in Roseberg they think their land is made of gold or something. But what about east side? The Dallas Or out towards "Hells Canyon" That is some magnificent country out there and talk about natural abundance. Please do understand I am not criticizing at all. Just trying to offer something useful.



HoppeEL4 said:


> As for how to guard our own place, we plan on guns.


Has much as I keep saying that survival-ism not just all about guns. It is something you really want to not put off. Owning a gun will not make you safe. You need to know how to use them under stress and use them well. Shooting is a diminishing skill, if you do not practice and train regularly you will lose what ever skill you have. If I may suggest that you get and carry the biggest caliber handgun you can shoot well, a shotgun and a hunting caliber like .308 and a .22 rifle. Of course there will -be as many who disagree with my choices as there are members, and topic for another thread. So shoot alot of guns decide what works for you. Than shoot the crap out of them regularly. Learn how to shoot, maintain and repair them.



HoppeEL4 said:


> As for others clearing things out here, not possible...have you seen this area of Oregon? All we have is trees as far as the eyes can see, abundant rivers and an overpopulation of deer (they wander into our small town and graze on lawns there are so many). The resources here are huge and our populations here are minimal compared to midwest and east coast states


I would not say impossible to deplete your resources and I do understand abundant resources. My back yard is a million acres of pristine wilderness, that includes the largest remaining rainforest in the North American Continent. It can be depleted and destroyed. Entire natural crops of edible wild food can be wiped out by ignorant idiots that do not know what they are doing. So we have security plans in place to protect our portion of it from anyone trying to invade our territory. The starving desperate masses will not be invading our territory.

I will say that your situation is far better than what I imagined from your first post. Of course the further you are away from Portland, Salem and Eugene the better. Oregon is not a densely populated state. Not as dense as the I-5 corridor here in Washington. Still I think the more rural or off grid you can get the better. Again Hells Canyon area would have some awesome geographically defensible areas, that with a little effort will provide with everything you would ever need.



HoppeEL4 said:


> No one person can live in an idea location if SHTF, you will eventually come into contact with others and must deal with them.


True, but you can stack the odds in your favor. We spent five years looking for this place. As I have posted elsewhere;
Our home is in a location that is geographically defensible. Both away from any town and where the terrain benefits our security. On the military crest of a hill, a steep 900 foot cliff makes the property inaccessible from one side. The only practical access to the property is a defensible two mile dirt road. If SHTF, our perimeter begins two miles from the property. It would require a full scale military assault with artillery support to make it up that road if it is being defended. Anyone else will feel like the Persians at the battle of Thermopylae.

Along the entire front of the property is a large retaining pond and a fence with stone pillars. Nothing short of a tank will make it through. Restricting access to our home to the 150 yard drive way.

There are wireless motion sensors and cameras all along the property's perimeter and at strategic locations on the property. If you are here we know where you are. Attack turkeys and dogs also alert us of any intruders.

The entire front of the house is fire and small arms resistant. All buildings have steel roofs.

Inside we are well armed with ample weapons on us and within easy reach. Anyone entering uninvited will be making their final fatal mistake. We have locking bedrooms, safe rooms in each building with undergrounds escape hatches joining my shop/studio with the house, exiting out onto the bluff at a point that is relatively easy to descend or ascend from.

What this buys us is security against thugs, home invaders, most any armed pack of yuppie scum bag suburbanites and others that think they can bug out to my turf or take what I have.

Obviously we are far from having an impenetrable fortress. It was never intended to be. We have about ten years into making this a safe secure self sustaining home. If it comes to that we have an escape plan, that we have spent years setting up camp than lugging caches of supplies along a predetermined route through 922,561 acres or 1442 square miles of pristine wilderness not counting, state land forestry lands and other undeveloped lands clear to the ocean where we have a small 30 foot sail boat.

We have done and continue to do what we can to stack the cards in our favor, but yes you are right no place is perfectly safe nuke proof. Which is why we have multi level escape plans But before we take that route we will defend what we have built up until we have no other option.


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## HoppeEL4

I am not at all defensive about where we are, it is just the truth that this is a desirable area and this means not even rent is cheap, although, we got a killer deal on our place. We are not completely out of town, we are only a mile from town (not Gresham or Portland, we got smart and got out of there), it is populated.

We are like many here, we cannot choose to leave, our income is actually in the industrial area of Portland, this is as far as we can afford to be out, and have one car, so it has to be a commutable distance via public transport...sure, not ideal but could be worse, it was once and we got really fortunate to find what we do have.

I have no basement (60's ranch on a solid foundation), no true attic. We will justhave to make use of my knowledge of the outdoors areas all around us (I grew up out here, know my way around well) if we had to leave and hide out. 

I would never consider living further in Portland as many do to be close to the job, I think it would be insane in our current state in this nation, and really loathe it in Portland anyways, I feel clausterphobic in there. Besides, if it really gets bad, I have my best friend up your way out in the country and we'll all go up there with our supplies (guess I better let her know!!LOL).


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## mojo4

Long rider it sounds like a heck of a place! Just watch out for those worms from tremors cause the last guy as prepared as you was attacked!! But seriously, sounds like a good house. I'm located in the far out burbs with a big yard. But more than likely our neighborhood watch will have to toughen up quite a bit. I wish I could get out to the sticks but can't for job reasons.


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## LongRider

deleted duplicate post


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## LongRider

BillM said:


> The estimate is mine .............................Where am I wrong here? :dunno:


Sorry I thought I had responded to this. You provided the basis for your assumptions but that is all you have, assumptions. Nothing in your post provided any credible sources for your conclusion that 90% of the population will be dead in the first year. Your conclusion is contrary to what has happened in the real world to modern cities when SHTF. Even when those cities are isolated from the surrounding area. 90% of the population did not die there was never at any point where there was an abundance of resources. Until it ended people could not go out for fear of being shot by snipers for what they were wearing and might have on them. Gangs became so powerful that they became part of the so called legitimate infrastructure when things returned to so call "normal". Again I strongly suggest that you check out shtfschool.com for some real world accounts of what it is to survive when the SHTF in a modern city.


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## LongRider

mojo4 said:


> But seriously, sounds like a good house. I'm located in the far out burbs with a big yard. But more than likely our neighborhood watch will have to toughen up quite a bit. I wish I could get out to the sticks but can't for job reasons.


I've been at this on some level since the the early 70's back when subscriptions of SOF and books from Paladin Press sent to a post office box under some goofs name that had been talked into picking up your mail from the PO Box in his name. We have been at making this a safe secure self sustaining home for ten years plus about five looking for it prior to that. As I have stated before my wife opted to commute nearly seven hours a day so that we could live here. Just as pixieduster


pixieduster said:


> We did just that. Move to a rural area. Work 12 hour shifts and have a 1.5 hour drive one way. 15 hour day.


Its a matter of priorities. If a secure self sustaining lifestyle is what you really want than you can make it happen. As we and countless others have done. No said it was easy or that there is not a price to pay. All those that I know that have been willing will tell you the same thing. It is worth the sacrifice and inconvenience, for us.
I understand that most are not willing to pay the price or make the sacrifice and that is fine it is their choice. But it is not because they can't, it is because they do not really want to and that's fine. This way of life is not for them.


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## BillM

*In Kosovo*



LongRider said:


> Sorry I thought I had responded to this. You provided the basis for your assumptions but that is all you have, assumptions. Nothing in your post provided any credible sources for your conclusion that 90% of the population will be dead in the first year. Your conclusion is contrary to what has happened in the real world to modern cities when SHTF. Even when those cities are isolated from the surrounding area. 90% of the population did not die there was never at any point where there was an abundance of resources. Until it ended people could not go out for fear of being shot by snipers for what they were wearing and might have on them. Gangs became so powerful that they became part of the so called legitimate infrastructure when things returned to so call "normal". Again I strongly suggest that you check out shtfschool.com for some real world accounts of what it is to survive when the SHTF in a modern city.


In the citys you are refering to, we were droping supplys. The whole world was not in the same boat with us. The financial collapse I fear will involve the world not just the USA . Besides who will come to our aid ? ? France?

The conditions are right in the world to see a reset on the world population.

I hope I am wrong.


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## LincTex

BillM said:


> In the cities you are referring to, we were dropping supplies.
> 
> Besides who will come to our aid??


True about MRE's being dropped by us in Bosnia... 
I don't know about Sudan, but any place that has been in the $h*tt3R for years and years will have adapted to the the good, the bad and the ugly.... it just takes time. And it STILL sucks to be there!!

It's pretty sad, that as "_world police_" we have military bases all over and powerful ships that can pull into a "port of disaster" and supply shore power, food and on-ship medical facilities for persons transported by helicopter. Nobody else does that.

Ain't nobody gonna come help us


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## HoppeEL4

LincTex...my mother has a saying "God helps those, who help themselves"...Well, it was actually the dinner call for 6 plus (always friends and cousins over) kids, but it applies in a SHTF scenario. You have to depend on your own God given skills and knowledge, and the wisdom He gave you, to save those you love and yourself.


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## LincTex

HoppeEL4 said:


> You have to depend on your own God given skills and knowledge, and the wisdom He gave you, to save those you love and yourself.


I will need more "strong" friends to help out. DW is a pretty small lady (can't swing an ax, LOL), DS and DD's are pretty young but can help with small chores. I have a small diesel tractor with nothing whatsoever electronic on it, it will be a GREAT force multiplier/horse replacement until the diesel runs out!


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## LongRider

BillM said:


> In the citys you are refering to, we were droping supplys.


True that but if you talk to those who were there; There was never enough dropped to actually feed the population and those that were dropped were quickly appropriated by gangs. Anyone running out to pick food/supply drops was quickly sniped so most did not even try. The MRE's you speak of were feasted on by the gangs very little ever made it to the black markets. Remember those people were trapped in the cities, surrounded by hostile forces. They could not even go out to rural areas to forage, yet 90% of them DID NOT die in the first year as you propose. Can you cite any example where 90% of the population did die in the first year?


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## BillM

*Yes*



LongRider said:


> True that but if you talk to those who were there; There was never enough dropped to actually feed the population and those that were dropped were quickly appropriated by gangs. Anyone running out to pick food/supply drops was quickly sniped so most did not even try. The MRE's you speak of were feasted on by the gangs very little ever made it to the black markets. Remember those people were trapped in the cities, surrounded by hostile forces. They could not even go out to rural areas to forage, yet 90% of them DID NOT die in the first year as you propose. Can you cite any example where 90% of the population did die in the first year?


 Yes Cambodia


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## LongRider

BillM said:


> Yes Cambodia


Come on that's a strawman argument. Whole sale genocide is neither typical nor the scenario you initially proposed. Even than I do not think that 90% of the population was exterminated within a year and that they left an abundance of resources for the surviving population.

Obviously you need to be right. So be it. I concede you are right. May your dream come true with 90% of the worlds population dying within a year after SHTF so that all your cities will paradise of abundance with goods and resources galore for you to pick and choose as you see fit. I wish you the best of luck prepping with that mind set.

For my part, I will continue to plod along working at being self sustaining with the intent of being no more dependent upon hand outs and freebees after SHTF than I am now.


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## BillS

LongRider said:


> Sorry I thought I had responded to this. You provided the basis for your assumptions but that is all you have, assumptions. Nothing in your post provided any credible sources for your conclusion that 90% of the population will be dead in the first year. Your conclusion is contrary to what has happened in the real world to modern cities when SHTF. Even when those cities are isolated from the surrounding area. 90% of the population did not die there was never at any point where there was an abundance of resources. Until it ended people could not go out for fear of being shot by snipers for what they were wearing and might have on them. Gangs became so powerful that they became part of the so called legitimate infrastructure when things returned to so call "normal". Again I strongly suggest that you check out shtfschool.com for some real world accounts of what it is to survive when the SHTF in a modern city.


In other countries that had hyperinflation the economies continued because the people used an alternative currency as much as possible. People would get paid and they'd buy dollars or German marks on the black market. America doesn't have an alternative currency.

Other countries that experienced hyperinflation had a much higher percentage of people who farmed. That's true both because of the time (Germany, 1920s) and the place (Zimbabwe, 2000s).

The obvious question is where 90% of the US population will get their food from. Grocery stores will be empty. There won't be access to fresh water. There won't be any jobs. There is only so much game. Most people live in higher populated areas. Most of the country gets cold enough in the winter that you'd freeze to death without someway of heating your home. America can't come to our rescue because we are America.

I don't know how America DOESN'T lose 90% of the population.


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## BillS

BillM said:


> The estimate is mine but here is what I am basing it on, in 1929 the USA went in to a great depression. This depression was actually a worldwide depression. It was worse in Europe than here in the USA.
> 
> The world's population in 1929 was two billion people.
> 
> The population is now seven billion and it will at the present rate double in about fourteen years.
> 
> In the USA in 1929 83% of the people were either directly or indirectly employed in agriculture.
> 
> In 2012 only 2% of the U S population is directly or indirectly involved in agriculture.
> 
> During the Great depression , while there was not much money, most people still had the means and the ability to grow their own food and were already doing so on a regular basis.
> 
> Now two percent of the U S population feed the rest of us.
> 
> The distribution system and the crop base were local and distributors of food and other staples kept large inventories on hand at each location.
> 
> Now Sigma Six ,(The just in time Japanese inventory system ) has replaced the out moded store room behind the grocery.
> 
> With no stock available, (except what is on display) and no functioning interstate commerce, (no trucks running).
> 
> Our already over populated country will begin to starve quickly. Anarchy and pandemic illness will follow quickly to kill of our largely helpless population.
> 
> There will be a lot of equipment and land left to those who survive the first year, (winter will be the hardest).
> 
> Where am I wrong here? :dunno:


I agree with you. You said it better than I did.


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## BillM

This scares the Hell out of me. I pray I am wrong but I don't realy think our situation is comparable to any past condition in recient history. It is like a perfect storm. Bills I like you think hyperinflation will be the trigger.


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## LincTex

A lot of it is going to have to do with how much of the "General Populous" is capable of doing to ensure its survival.

All of the "examples" mentioned are places that are NOT thriving economies. In those areas, people make do with what they have, and work harder for it. Not so much for us here in the USA.

It's comparing apples to oranges here, because we live in a "soft" society where I can go to McD's and get two or three McDoubles for $1.00 each, and have a full stomach.

Shoot - - Anymore, most people in the US don't even know how to COOK anymore much less know where to forage for edible plants. I think a lot of when these guys say 90% will die off, they are thinking of those who can't cook ... and they live off of the "Dollar Value Menu". Even if you supply them with a 50 lb bag of flour, they will still starve!! (tongue in cheek)

How many other countries have "fast food" chains? In any major city in the USA, you can't drive 2-3 miles without seeing a fast food joint. Yes, other countries might have a McDonald's in their cities also - - - one for the entire city!

You want to see 90% of the population go crazy? Just shut down all the fast food joints overnight. That will just about cause a panic in some places. If it doesn't cause panic, the grocery stores would be stripped instantly of any easy "microwave and eat" type foods.

LongRider, I agree you should be skeptical and I applaud your optimism. I don't think there will be abandoned cities by ANY means, but people in the USA are the ones in this world who are LEAST prepared to handle any major event that "throws a wrench in the works".

I work in a major city at an aerospace facility, and I see how the sheeple live every day. Turn off the power, the gas pumps, close the grocery stores and stop the trucks from rolling, and it would be very, very, very ugly.


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## LincTex

A supporting argument:



machinist said:


> .
> Yes, farming is almost totally dependent on both the electric grid and fossil fuels, plus massive amounts of fertilizers and chemicals. Seed is another whole topic, and one that is in the news lately, with Monsanto's efforts to monopolize the seed market.
> 
> In a grid-down scenario, I personally doubt if we could feed more than 5% of the present population, mainly due to the lack of available fuels, seeds, and fertilizers. There is also the problem of how to process all that food, since home processing seems to be largely a thing of the past now.


It should also be mentioned that most farm equipments nowadays is also loaded with much of the same electronic equipment that would fail in an EMP. There aren't enough older International 560's and 1206's and Deere 3010's and 4020's to go around anymore. All older "non-electronic" combines are all scrapped.


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## oldwindrow

redacted done posting at a place that promotes illegal fantasies


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## LincTex

oldwindrow said:


> tick tock tick tock, tick tock, get food, water, something to pass the time doing, and watch the clock. The 90 percentile in a year seems right. Existing in that year leering at the clock will likely be very trying to stay sane.


OK, let's just say there will be a one year period where 90% die off.

*NONE* of the remaining ten percent will pass the year staring at a clock!!!!


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## HoppeEL4

Does anyone here think our government knows there is something bad coming down? Or, are they truly as clueless as much of the population is today?


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## TheLazyL

HoppeEL4 said:


> ..government knows there is something bad coming down? Or, are they truly as clueless ...


Clueless. That's why the only employment they could get was in politics....


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## Possumfam

LincTex said:


> I will need more "strong" friends to help out. DW is a pretty small lady (can't swing an ax, LOL), DS and DD's are pretty young but can help with small chores. I have a small diesel tractor with nothing whatsoever electronic on it, it will be a GREAT force multiplier/horse replacement until the diesel runs out!


I wasn't raised swinging an axe either. I learned from DH's 80 year old grandma, who didn't weigh more than 100 lbs. I was skiddish, afraid the head would fling off. She grabbed that axe outta my hand, took one swing (that wood went flying!), and handed it back. Never underestimate the power behind a teeny tiny woman.


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## BillS

HoppeEL4 said:


> Does anyone here think our government knows there is something bad coming down? Or, are they truly as clueless as much of the population is today?


I think there are parts of the federal government that know what's coming. That's why Homeland Security bought 470 million rounds of ammo and bullet proof check points. I think the runaway government spending is all a part of engineering a collapse and implementing Agenda 21 that the UN wants. It all fits in with what's written on the Georgia Guidestones:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones

1 Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.
2 Guide reproduction wisely - improving fitness and diversity.
3 Unite humanity with a living new language.
4 Rule passion - faith - tradition - and all things with tempered reason.
5 Protect people and nations with fair laws and just courts.
6 Let all nations rule internally resolving external disputes in a world court.
7 Avoid petty laws and useless officials.
8 Balance personal rights with social duties.
9 Prize truth - beauty - love - seeking harmony with the infinite.
10 Be not a cancer on the earth - Leave room for nature - Leave room for nature.


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## ANSON

Buggin in seems the best option for me. Stocked up, defensible position, and it would tke a 30' travel trailer to haul what I am not willing to leave behind. Come to think of it, if things are REALLY bad, bet there would be lots of looters and scum that would/could real easy stop any vehicles to take what they want, even if you are armed. I mean really, I don't have bullet proof tires, radiator, windows, etc. how hard would it be to escape when pulling a loaded trailer full of "essentials".....


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## machinist

Yeah, better be where you want to be and stay there. I've seen cities at rush hour, and groceries with a blizzard coming in. Everybody gets eggs, milk and bread. Uuuh, French Toast anyone? Who knows what they are thinking. 

I can't afford to prep another place nearly as well as we have it at home. In fact, I had been thinking about doing just that, but it really isn't practical at our age and without having a lot of extra money. A LOT of extra money.


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## Moby76065

I've got a BOL but like others paln to defend the castle until I need to abandon it.
I Have lots here and moving it would be tough. I do need to get a trailer and like Wildman preload 
a lot of things so bugging out won't mean leaving a bunch of stuff behind.


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## kejmack

It concerns me that so many people think they are going to arrive at their BOL, plant a garden, hunt and be fine. It takes skill to raise enough food in a garden to support a family. It isn't just throwing some seeds in the dirt and waiting for the food to pop out. And as for hunting, there might be deer and rabbits aplenty now, but once all the locals and the refugees start blasting away, the animal population will be extinct within weeks. 

Any serious prepper ought to be living the lifestyle now. Grow a garden. Practice living without electricity. Practice hiking with your BOB. If you are planning to bug out, you ought to be practicing alternative routes and what you are going to do if you have to walk the whole trip. 

All the stuff and gear in the world isn't going to help you if you don't have the skills to survive.


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## lefty

kejmack said:


> It concerns me that so many people think they are going to arrive at their BOL, plant a garden, hunt and be fine. It takes skill to raise enough food in a garden to support a family. It isn't just throwing some seeds in the dirt and waiting for the food to pop out. And as for hunting, there might be deer and rabbits aplenty now, but once all the locals and the refugees start blasting away, the animal population will be extinct within weeks.
> 
> Any serious prepper ought to be living the lifestyle now. Grow a garden. Practice living without electricity. Practice hiking with your BOB. If you are planning to bug out, you ought to be practicing alternative routes and what you are going to do if you have to walk the whole trip.
> 
> All the stuff and gear in the world isn't going to help you if you don't have the skills to survive.


amen +100000


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## LongRider

LincTex said:


> LongRider, I agree you should be skeptical and I applaud your optimism. I don't think there will be abandoned cities by ANY means, but people in the USA are the ones in this world who are LEAST prepared to handle any major event that "throws a wrench in the works".[/U]


I do not disagree with a single point in your post. We only need to look at who is in the White House to figure out ours is a nation of idiots looking for a free ride. There was a study not so long ago that revealed that a significant percentage of I don't recall exactly but a fairly large percent 20% to 30% maybe of men under 27 years old who could not change a light bulb. I am not arguing that there will be no shortage of those without the skills knowledge and resources to survive long term. What I have been saying is that I disagree with the argument that all anyone need do to survive long term once SHTF is to hunker down for a year and when you come out you will live in the lap of luxury. The implication that there is no need to know how to produce food or power. No need to know how to hunt, gather, prepare game and wild food. No need to farm, raise livestock or know how to. That survival skills other than a years worth of stores and a safe place to hide is unnecessary. According to the post I responded to


BillM said:


> In six months time 50% of the population will be gone. In a year maybe as many as 90% will sucomb.
> 
> The remaining population will not have to raid or steal from anyone to get the things they need. There will be plenty of stuff and plenty of land to take because no one will be alive to defend it or claim it.


According to that post after a year is up we can crawl out of our hiddy hole. Shed our the Under Armour, 511 pants and shirt, Heally Hanson outer wear and Whites boots. No need to ever eat SPAM or an MRE again. Because we will be able to replace all that with silk underwear, a Ralph Lauren suit, Gucci shoes, Rolex watch, hop into our Roll Royce, Maserati, private helicopter or Lear jet if we prefer and move into the penthouse suite of Trump Towers of equivalent in your area. Stop off at the local gourmet shop dine on foie gras from France, Russian Caviar, Black Forest Ham from Germany, sip on Dom Pérignon topped off with a snifter of Napoleons private stock Courvoisier Cognac and a Cuban cigar. All of that and than some would be entirely possible if only ten percent of the population survived the first year. Personally I think that is beyond absurd.

Perhaps my opinion is biased in part because I have been prepping on one level or another since the early seventies and would hate to think that the time I have spent learning, practicing and developing survival skills, fire making, learning to trap, snare, track, hunt, fish, net, garden, animal husbandry, mechanical repair, small engine repair, first aid, trauma care, herb & plants, cooking, naturopathic remedies, welding, carpentry, wood working, carving, butchering/meat cutting, skinning, tanning, sewing making moccs & leather clothing, sailing, navigation, map reading, martial arts, archery, firearms training & practice, marksmanship, tactical training, rappelling, mountain climbing, defensive driving, wine making, distilling, canning, smoking, dehydrating, braiding, rope making, knot tying, caching, stock piling building a self sustaining homestead was all a waste of time.

But I think that even in cities where you will find the highest percentage people without even the most basic survival skills. That every blade of grass, every rose, dandelion, fruit tree, tree or bush, every cat, dog, iguana, hamster, mouse, rat, worm, maggot and cockroach would be eaten and every piece of furniture, wood trim interior door, molding, every book, scrap of paper and anything else combustible would all have to be gone before 90% of the population would be dead. In my opinion that will take far more than a year. Outside of cities, towns and villages in rural, wilderness and reservations people are far more able to be self sufficient. There are vast areas where people have lived off grid for generations. Growing up on the rez I don't think my wife ate domestic or store bought meat until she was in her teens. For that segment of the population I doubt the death toll will be anywhere near 90% in the first year. It just does not stand up to my experience that such a massive percentage of the population would die so easily. Granted I have not seen any community need to survive a catastrophic disaster without any outside assistance. But I have seen time and again how tenacious human beings will to live is. Overcoming incredible overwhelming odds like defeating adversaries they did not have a prayer against or surviving 16 fatal injuries. So it is hard for me to imagine whole populations dying when the necessary resources are available


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## kejmack

WE have the will to survive which is a lot of the reason we are preppers! But most of the population does not have the same drive. We are talking about people who call 911 because their Sunday paper doesn't get delivered or call 911 because McDonalds doesn't get their order right. (I used to be a 911 dispatcher) We are talking about people who have no common sense and have no ability to solve their own problems. They are NOT going to make it once the SHTF. 

If the event is bad enough, disease will break out within weeks. Salmonella and noro-virus will be the first to hit. Without hospitals and doctors to rehydrate these people, they will die. Injuries and infections will go untreated and more people will die. 90% dead within the first year is what the government is planning for.


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## BillM

Long Rider;

According to that post after a year is up we can crawl out of our hiddy hole. Shed our the Under Armour, 511 pants and shirt, Heally Hanson outer wear and Whites boots. No need to ever eat SPAM or an MRE again. Because we will be able to replace all that with silk underwear, a Ralph Lauren suit, Gucci shoes, Rolex watch, hop into our Roll Royce, Maserati, private helicopter or Lear jet if we prefer and move into the penthouse suite of Trump Towers of equivalent in your area. Stop off at the local gourmet shop dine on foie gras from France, Russian Caviar, Black Forest Ham from Germany, sip on Dom Pérignon topped off with a snifter of Napoleons private stock Courvoisier Cognac and a Cuban cigar. All of that and than some would be entirely possible if only ten percent of the population survived the first year. Personally I think that is beyond absurd. 


Ohh man, you just blew your OPSEC !


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## LongRider

kejmack said:


> It concerns me that so many people think they are going to arrive at their BOL, plant a garden, hunt and be fine. It takes skill to raise enough food in a garden to support a family. It isn't just throwing some seeds in the dirt and waiting for the food to pop out.


Exactly as I just said on another thread 


LongRider said:


> This is exactly why I have been of the opinion that prepping by stockpiling usefulness is limited to short term crisis. Knowledge, skill and experience is far more important and valuable than most any tangible goods
> It is why I am such a big advocate of being self sustaining now. Relocate to where ever you intend on bugging out to. Start becoming self sustaining. Plant a garden learn what grows and does not grow. Learn how much you need to plant to get you through a year. Learn what edible wild foods are available. Learn how, when and where to harvest them. Use them. Learn how to prepare them for food or medicine and how to preserve than. Incorporate them into you regular diet, use them when you are sick. It is by doing on your turf that you learn what grows well, where the good morel mushroom patches are, where the berries are, the best spots to fish, shrimp, crab or hunt. If you wait until after it hits the fan you are going to be way behind the eight ball. After SHTF is not the time to learn, school is out. Now if you do not have enough chickens or they die you can replace them, if you do not plant enough or do not harvest and gather preserve enough you get a do over. You buy more chickens plant more gather harvest and preserve more. After SHTF you go without and starve





kejmack said:


> And as for hunting, there might be deer and rabbits aplenty now, but once all the locals and the refugees start blasting away, the animal population will be extinct within weeks.


Which brings up another issue that those bugging to a location they may not own or do not spend significant time at do not seem to have taken into consideration. As an example how do you know you are not thinking about invading MY land. My property borders over a million acres of pristine wilderness. All those that live on the hill have invested in top tier septic systems. Do not use pesticides and are careful that any fertilizer and chemicals we use will not pollute the water. As a result of our efforts we have some of the most pristine waters in the world producing some of the sweetest oyster, crabs shrimp and salmon spawning grounds on the planet. No one hunts on our "hill" instead we plant indigenous wild life food plants allow land to lay fallow in a natural state, our hill is a wildlife haven. With the result being the surrounding lands have abundant wildlife traveling too and fro. Both game and plants life that we harvest. We use much of that land now, once SHTF that land is ours. We could care less who imagines that their BOL is located on our land. Aware that there will be an increased burden on the wildlife as a result of more locals depending upon subsistence hunting and harvesting. There is a multilevel plan to shut out any and ALL invaders. Starting at the one access point out to here forty miles away with localized barricades with entrenched armed defenders along the way protecting their little communities, until those reaching our perimeter will be few. We will be ready entrenched lines of fire, defenses established offering them the opportunity to move on.

Point being the BOL so many plan on bugging out to may very well be someone else's land. Even if it is a plot you bought and visit once or twice a year, deer camp or summer cabin there may be an entrenched armed group ready to lay down their lives to keep what is theirs. Do whats necessary to keep them and their families alive.



kejmack said:


> 90% dead within the first year is what the government is planning for.


Really? I had found your posts to be pretty credible and insightful but this one makes me question that. Do you have a link to the government source of that statement? The OP of the 90% said it was their best guess, but you claim that is what the government is planning for. So there must be some credible government source you can use to validate that claim. Can you post the link to that source of information.


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## Bobbb

LongRider said:


> *Even if it is a plot you bought* and visit once or twice a year, deer camp or summer cabin there may be an entrenched armed group ready to lay down their lives to keep *what is theirs*.


There was a video posted in another thread about a dude talking about how he and his gang were going to pillage from those who had prepared before the SHTF. In a nutshell, you're from the same school of thought as this guy. Here you show the audacity to claim that the land that someone else bought belongs to you.



> Do whats necessary to keep them and their families alive.


This is true. At least you're honest. Stealing someone else's land and using force, up to deadly force, to prevent the rightful owner from coming to his own land, really does meet your definition of doing whatever is necessary.

I don't doubt for a second that people like you and that gangbanger exist, I'm simply saddened that such immoral thieves are one added problem that all of us will have to deal with. It will be hard enough to deal with the burdens that a collapse will impose on all of us and it's going to be hard to rebuild if people like you believe that ownership depends ONLY on might and willingness to kill to defend what you've stolen. That mode of thought simply sets up an arm's race where people set out to take what they covet by putting together bigger and bigger gangs and then having to devote resources after the fact to defend what they've stolen.


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## LincTex

Bobbb said:


> I'm simply saddened that such immoral thieves are one added problem that all of us will have to deal with. It will be hard enough to deal with the burdens that a collapse will impose on all of us ....


If a collapse truly does occur, you will find it to be very difficult to discern between those you were certain could be trusted, from those who really can be.

A LOT of _good, honest, decent people_ will be "anything but"... when it comes time to feed their starving children.

Prepare to be surprised at how radically people can change, and how quickly.


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## mojo4

I agree bobbb. I'm not planning on bugging out anywhere but you never know what circumstances may happen to force you out of your current location. But if anyone thinks they are going to "own" public forests or parks simply because they live nearby is no different than the neighborhood thieves. If you own it fine, but don't try to lay claim to whatever you want simply because you are armed. Lots of people are armed. Thievery will not be tolerated then or now.


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## Bobbb

LincTex said:


> If a collapse truly does occur, you will find it to be very difficult to discern between those you were certain could be trusted, from those who really can be.
> 
> A LOT of _good, honest, decent people_ will be "anything but"... when it comes time to feed their starving children.
> 
> Prepare to be surprised at how radically people can change, and how quickly.


I agree with your observation. What struck me about the previous comment was the belief, anchored in the present, that someone else's land actually belongs to him because the owner of the land is not present on the land today, and that this state of affairs will be corrected once a collapse comes and active efforts are put in place to keep the owner of the land from reaching his land and thus allowing the "true owner" to claim the land as his own. This isn't a thought process which develops out of necessity, as your comment hints at, rather this is a thought process that he holds now, yet if I showed up on his land and ran him off at the point of a gun, he'd probably not accept that "might makes right" and would appeal to the legal system for remedy in order to get back what he "mistakenly" thinks belongs to him even though he couldn't defend ownership.


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## TheLazyL

Bobbb said:


> ...that someone else's land actually belongs to him because the owner of the land is not present on the land today.


I understood their post a bit different.

I understood the post as if a Refugee thinks that they become a Squatter on land that the OP has maintain there would be a problem.

Like back in my younger days I frontier the land, cleared it, build it, raised a few head of cattle, fought off the natives and buried a few loved ones. Do I legality own all off the land that I maintain, no. But 30 years later when some blasted Yankee Dirt Farmer starts stringing barbwire across "my" land, I going to have difficulty accepting that fact.


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## JayJay

LongRider quote....Really? I had found your posts to be pretty credible and insightful but this one makes me question that. Do you have a link to the government source of that statement? The OP of the 90% said it was their best guess, but you claim that is what the government is planning for. So there must be some credible government source you can use to validate that claim. Can you post the link to that source of information.

http://www.radioliberty.com/stones.htm

THE MESSAGE OF THE GEORGIA GUIDESTONES

1. Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature


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## kejmack

Long Rider, I am using the information that was discussed at GETAC and other emergency management meetings I have attended. I will see if I can find it in writing, too.


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## LongRider

Bobbb said:


> Here you show the audacity to claim that the land that someone else bought belongs to you.


You sir are a *LIAR* I never said that . Never ever suggested that anyone do that. It is my experience that sneaks and liars are the kind of folks most likely to stab you in the back all the while pretending to be honorable ethical people. So before you go around falsely accusing others of immoral conduct you should take a look in the mirror. In the interest of giving folks a heads up and something to think about I proposed that there are those that may do that and that those who own land take steps to protect what is theirs before it is to late.

As I have stated before, the land that surrounds my property is currently State and Federal land. Land that me and my community take care of and subsist off of. That land IS OUR LAND if SHTF and I do not care who imagines that they can bug out to MY LAND and deprive my family what we need to live off of. Johnnny come lately will not get within two miles of that land before being invited to move on. If the persist they are more than welcome to take a dirt nap. Anyone does not like that to bad how sad, DO something about it. We'll be here waiting and ready


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## LongRider

JayJay said:


> http://www.radioliberty.com/stones.htm
> 
> THE MESSAGE OF THE GEORGIA GUIDESTONES
> 
> 1. Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature


When quoting some one consider using the forum quote function of at least using quotation marks.
That link is not to any credible government source. Looks like some new age new world order mumbo jumbo Stonehenge to me. I believe I asked for a verifiable credible government source that was referenced in the post I was responding to. I do not make real life decisions on Sci Fi or Fantasy much less new age new world order ca ca that is MUCH less credible and reality based than sci fi or fantasy


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## Bobbb

LongRider said:


> You sir are a *LIAR* I never said that . Never ever suggested that anyone do that.


Then you best sit down and have a quiet think about your viewpoints because I'm simply taking you at your word. You wrote the following:

_"Which brings up another issue that those bugging to a location they may not own *or do not spend significant time at* do not seem to have taken into consideration."_

The scenario that follows applies to two sets of people - one set is people who plan to use land that they DO NOT OWN and I'm not concerned with your viewpoint on that set of people. The other set of people that you have plans for are those who plan to use land that they DO OWN.

You next write:

_"As an example how do you know you are not thinking about invading MY land. My property borders over a million acres of pristine wilderness."_

At this point in your essay your only morally defensible position is that you intend to stop people from using the land that YOU OWN, and you have no intention of stopping them from using the land that you DO NOT OWN, but you make clear to us all that you consider yourself the owner of land that you did not purchase, land which abuts the land you purchased.

You make that point quite clear with this quote:

_"We use much of that land now, *once SHTF that land is ours*. We could care less who imagines that their BOL is located on our land."_

Now you're claiming offense at the suggestion that you don't honor people's property and that you intend to become a thief. You hide behind the fact that you wrote the following in Third Person Plural tense - some mysterious "They" and "Theirs" instead of "Me" and "Mine."

This defense rings as hollow as a woman taking offense at being called a whore when she objects to sleeping with a man for $20 when she had previously indicated that she was willing to commit the deed for $200,000.

You're willing to claim land that doesn't belong to you so long as it is public land, but you expect us to believe that you now have scruples about not doing the same with respect to private land and only the unnamed "They" are going to claim as "theirs" what belongs to someone else - you're the saint, you only steal what belongs to the public, not to individuals.

_"Even if it is a plot *you bought* and visit once or twice a year, deer camp or summer cabin there may be an entrenched armed group *ready to lay down their lives to keep what is theirs.*"_

Your words and the beliefs that underlie them are the problem. You faking offense at people taking you at your word is a hollow gambit. If you don't like having your words thrown back at you and being called what you clearly are, then renounce your uncivilized position here and now and actually mean it.

What's funny is that seeing the quotes above from your earlier comment, you decide to double down and go for broke rather than rethinking and backtracking and extricating yourself from the hole you've dug for yourself.

_"As I have stated before, the land that surrounds my property is currently State and Federal land. Land that me and my community take care of and subsist off of. *That land IS OUR LAND* if SHTF and I do not care who imagines that they can bug out to *MY LAND* and deprive my family what we need to live off of."_

Let's be clear - THAT'S NOT YOUR LAND. That is public land. If you're willing to steal land that belongs to us all I don't see any reason to refrain from believing that you'd be willing to steal land that belongs to me. It's the very same mindset, only the target has changed.


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## BlueShoe

LongRider said:


> You sir are a *LIAR* I never said that . Never ever suggested that anyone do that. It is my experience that sneaks and liars are the kind of folks most likely to stab you in the back all the while pretending to be honorable ethical people. So before you go around falsely accusing others of immoral conduct you should take a look in the mirror. In the interest of giving folks a heads up and something to think about I proposed that there are those that may do that and that those who own land take steps to protect what is theirs before it is to late.


You have wisely come to the correct conclusion. The person you're addressing will repeatedly make incorrect assumptions then attribute to you an argument that you are not making. The goal is to make you defend a point he made for you. 
In order to try to win, he'll take your position and pretend it's his, because he sees that he doesn't have the ability to win on his case. His only goal is to continue the argument. I'm fairly certain that he's demon possessed. Once you see the cycle repeated over and again, you'll see that the goal is to keep the argument going instead of reaching a remedy. This isn't someone who would be an asset in any prepper world.


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## LongRider

BillM said:


> Long Rider;
> 
> According to that post after a year is up we can crawl out of our hiddy hole. Shed our the Under Armour, 511 pants and shirt, Heally Hanson outer wear and Whites boots. No need to ever eat SPAM or an MRE again. Because we will be able to replace all that with silk underwear, a Ralph Lauren suit, Gucci shoes, Rolex watch, hop into our Roll Royce, Maserati, private helicopter or Lear jet if we prefer and move into the penthouse suite of Trump Towers of equivalent in your area. Stop off at the local gourmet shop dine on foie gras from France, Russian Caviar, Black Forest Ham from Germany, sip on Dom Pérignon topped off with a snifter of Napoleons private stock Courvoisier Cognac and a Cuban cigar. All of that and than some would be entirely possible if only ten percent of the population survived the first year. Personally I think that is beyond absurd.


I believe that was my post as seen below with the link back to the original post. FWI the link would be the arrow icon that look like this







following the poster name. That would be me. 


LongRider said:


> According to that post after a year is up we can crawl out of our hiddy hole. Shed our the Under Armour, 511 pants and shirt, Heally Hanson outer wear and Whites boots. No need to ever eat SPAM or an MRE again. Because we will be able to replace all that with silk underwear, a Ralph Lauren suit, Gucci shoes, Rolex watch, hop into our Roll Royce, Maserati, private helicopter or Lear jet if we prefer and move into the penthouse suite of Trump Towers of equivalent in your area. Stop off at the local gourmet shop dine on foie gras from France, Russian Caviar, Black Forest Ham from Germany, sip on Dom Pérignon topped off with a snifter of Napoleons private stock Courvoisier Cognac and a Cuban cigar. All of that and than some would be entirely possible if only ten percent of the population survived the first year. Personally I think that is beyond absurd.


Honestly I do not see what your point is plagiarizing my post that directly contradicts your 90% nonsense, so I am reminded of a quote.


Napoleon Bonaparte said:


> "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence"~ Napoleon Bonaparte.


If that is the case may I suggest you learn some basic forum etiquette. If your intent is to quote someone and not appear as if you are attempting to plagiarize them and are not computer literate enough to use the [quote*] [/quote] (minus the asterisk) than you can click on the pretty button that looks like








If that is too complicated for you another option is to use quotation marks around what you are quoting they look like this " you put one on the begining of a quote and another one like this " at the end of the quote. Using one of those option will help people not think you are an idiot or plagiarizing.



BillM said:


> Ohh man, you just blew your OPSEC !


Really you want to explain how? Do you even know what OPSEC is?


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## mojo4

Hey long I agree with some of your posts but your acting like a turkey with the use this icon stuff so make your point and move on buddy.


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## BillM

*Well Hell*



LongRider said:


> I believe that was my post as seen below with the link back to the original post. FWI the link would be the arrow icon that look like this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> following the poster name. That would be me.
> 
> Honestly I do not see what your point is plagiarizing my post that directly contradicts your 90% nonsense, so I am reminded of a quote.
> 
> If that is the case may I suggest you learn some basic forum etiquette. If your intent is to quote someone and not appear as if you are attempting to plagiarize them and are not computer literate enough to use the [quote*]


 (minus the asterisk) than you can click on the pretty button that looks like








If that is too complicated for you another option is to use quotation marks around what you are quoting they look like this " you put one on the begining of a quote and another one like this " at the end of the quote. Using one of those option will help people not think you are an idiot or plagiarizing.

Really you want to explain how? Do you even know what OPSEC is?[/QUOTE]

Long Rider,

I shouldn't even have to explain a joke.

You need totake a deep breath, every one is not your enemy!

As for the 90% figure, I said before that that was my personal opinon. I am baseing it on my own studys of collapsed civilations. Example: The Myans, The residents of Easter Island, Jamestown.


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## kejmack

Long Rider, I have not been able to find the 90% in print on the internet, but I can tell you that the Gov't is indeed planning all kinds of things related to disasters. I can also tell you that a lot of what they are planning is based on their interpretation of what happened in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. The NIMS protocols are a good example of that. FEMA and DHS are planning and predicting outcomes based on the break down in law and order that occurred so quickly after Katrina coupled with the total impotence of the state and local government. On top of that, the complete "helplessness" of the local people and you can see why the feds have a gloomy picture of what they think will happen.


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## LincTex

LongRider said:


> I believe I asked for a verifiable credible government source that was referenced in the post I was responding to. I do not make real life decisions on Sci Fi or Fantasy much less new age new world order ca ca that is MUCH less credible and reality based than sci fi or fantasy


I will try to take a stab at this... though it will not from one source, or quotable statement.

In order to come up with a "90% of the population may die" scenario (I purposely neglected to say "will")... all it takes is a little research.

Accurate USDA figures go back almost 100 years... look at how many "bushels per acre" of any crop that farmer were yielding in the 1900's to 1930's era... 20 bushels per acre of wheat on non-irrigated land was doing pretty good. Pretty soon, advancements came along, like the very simple herbicide 2,4-D which allowed farmers to kill broadleaf plants in their wheat fields. It does nothing for pidgeongrass, foxtail, etc... but at least the wild mustard and lambsquarter were taken care of. VOILA! Now we are up to 30 bushels per acre!

Then came synthetic (petro- or natural gas derived) fertilizers... and better chemicals. 50-60 bushels per acre. Bigger tractors that can cultivate 100 acres PER DAY. Better Hybrids: 70-80 bushels per acre! I hard the other day that some places are growing 100 BUSHEL PER ACRE WHEAT!! 
http://waterquality.montana.edu/docs/irrigation/100bushel.shtml 
That is a 500% increase over the 1920's and 30's when 20 bushels per acre was a decent crop. This article talk about the capability of growing 300-350 BUSHEL PER ACRE CORN!!! http://www.agronext.iastate.edu/corn/production/management/harvest/producing.html

Those are INSANE crop yields!

Now.... take it all away. All of the fertilizer, the chemicals, the big diesel tractors and combines and semi-trucks... Let's go back to Draught Horses and walk behind plows ... or even Farmall F20's and John Deere "A" tractors pulling two bottoms.

The published EMP report http://www.empcommission.org/ infers we could go back to a 1920's lifestyle for a while.

Can you imagine what would happen to the majority of urban population if the USA was dependent on 1920's era agricultural technology?

BUT IT GETS WORSE: all of those old horse drawn plows are now lawn decorations, and old Farmall and Deere tractors are in museums and scrap yards.

WE ARE AT THIS TIME NOT EVEN CAPABLE OF MAINTAINING FOOD PRODUCTION AT 1920 era rates because that technology has rusted away and been melted down decades ago!! The horses are gone, too. When modern tractors came available, old draft horses almost became extinct, save for the Amish.

OK.... so that's the food production side of it. If we just look at food, and ONLY food.... how many of the population would die? 20%?? 40%?? Less?? More??

That is ONLY FOOD. One area of concern ONLY.

Now, take away 50% of all petroleum (oil embargo) and the fuels, plastics, medicines, hospital supplies, pharmaceuticals, food containers, trucked goods...

Now.... How many will die?

Take away grid power electricity. No more oil is pumped through pipelines, no more water treatment plants, no more sewage treatment plants, no more well pumps bringing fresh water up (water windmills are long gone for the most part).

Now.... How many will die?

I don't think, other than in the book "one second after", will you find a "published report" or a "quotable statement" that says 90% will die...

But, IF A MAJOR EVENT causes a big hiccup in society, the house of cards will come crashing down... and this determined by doing historical research and comparing the data of the past with the data of today.

We really cannot support 320 million people in this country without a lot of "propping up" with modern conveniences. The problem is, the conveniences are intertwined (power grid/natural gas/diesel fuel/pipelines/petrochemicals/fertilizers/massive farms etc.)

If you take away one of the links, the whole chain becomes useless.


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## LongRider

mojo4 said:


> I agree bobbb. I'm not planning on bugging out anywhere but you never know what circumstances may happen to force you out of your current location. But if anyone thinks they are going to "own" public forests or parks simply because they live nearby is no different than the neighborhood thieves. If you own it fine, but don't try to lay claim to whatever you want simply because you are armed. Lots of people are armed. Thievery will not be tolerated then or now.


Are you familiar with the concept of Homesteading?

After SHTF there will be no public lands.

You apparently have no problem with someone bugging out and crossing over private land to lay claim to some so called public land that they have no connection to and protecting it for themselves

But you do have a problem with a community of people taking possession of that same so called public land. Land that they have already been taking care of, using to subsist on and protecting it for themselves.

Seems like a pretty twisted sense of morality to me. How you manage to distort protecting what is necessary for us to live from outside invaders into some kind of theft when nothing is taken from anyone defies logic.

It is not about being armed. It is about a community that knows the land. Knowing every bush, every tree, every ravine every hide, having establishing a perimeter where the terrain works in our favor. Having a defensive plan, in order to protect what we have so that we may live. Entrenched with established lines of fire offering intruders the opportunity to move on to land that is not already occupied. If you or the raiders you seem to support can not accept that to bad trespassers are shot now and will be after SHTF


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## LongRider

mojo4 said:


> Hey long I agree with some of your posts but your acting like a turkey with the use this icon stuff so make your point and move on buddy.


All what icon stuff? I believe I used the word icon once in an effort to assist someone that does not seem to be able to use the forum functions properly. 


LongRider said:


> I believe that was my post as seen below with the link back to the original post. FWI the link would be the arrow icon that look like this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> following the poster name. That would be me.
> 
> Honestly I do not see what your point is plagiarizing my post that directly contradicts your 90% nonsense, so I am reminded of a quote.
> 
> If that is the case may I suggest you learn some basic forum etiquette. If your intent is to quote someone and not appear as if you are attempting to plagiarize them and are not computer literate enough to use the [quote*] [*/quote] (minus the asterisk) than you can click on the pretty button that looks like
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If that is too complicated for you another option is to use quotation marks around what you are quoting they look like this " you put one on the beginning of a quote and another one like this " at the end of the quote. Using one of those option will help people not think you are an idiot or plagiarizing


If you can do so in a more concise manner please feel free do so. That would be more productive than all your needless insults and name calling


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## kejmack

Food isn't the only factor in population decline. Diabetics, heart patients, cancer patients, asthma patients, etc are all dependent on daily medications. Lots of inexperienced people will be handling guns and there will be accidents but no trauma centers. People will be injured hunting and trying to procure food, but there will be only limited medical care. Infections and minor injuries that are easily treated today will become fatal.


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## LincTex

kejmack said:


> Food isn't the only factor in population decline. Diabetics, heart patients, cancer patients, asthma patients, etc are all dependent on daily medications.


Yes, indeed!


LincTex said:


> That is ONLY FOOD. One area of concern ONLY.
> 
> Now, take away 50% of all petroleum (oil embargo) and the fuels, plastics, medicines, hospital supplies, pharmaceuticals, food containers, trucked goods...
> 
> Now.... How many will die?


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## DinkyJean

I am buggin in. I can make it for the rest of my lifef on my place without local grocery stores, hospitals, entertainment, shopping, and all the crap modern day civilzation has put out. Its all about being self sufficient on your own property, and being able to protect it. This is something I have been taught, practiced and done my entire life living on a farm way out in the sticks. 

And should something go desperately wrong...I have several BOLs that are ready for me either by vehicle, on foot or riding my horses in...and I can always return to my home and land ata later point in time. But there is enough here, I simply do NOT see me buggin out...EVER.


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## machinist

kejmack,

I have not read this entire thread, but this may be the reference to "90%" that someone talked about.

There was a govt commission on EMP in 2004:
http://www.empcommission.org/docs/empc_exec_rpt.pdf

I don't think that report mentioned the 90% dead in a year thing. Not sure. I think that comment came later from Frank Gaffney:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2506183/posts

Quote:
" "Within a year of that attack, nine out of 10 Americans would be dead, because we can't support a population of the present size in urban centers and the like without electricity," said Frank Gaffney, president of the Center for Security Policy. "And that is exactly what I believe the Iranians are working towards." "

The basic idea was that the US could not support any more than that without grid electricity, IIRC.

On the face of it, I agree with that assessment. I've been involved with agriculture to some degree most of my life, and I have personally farmed with horses. The immediate problem would be a lack of horses of a suitable type to do the HEAVY farm work, and a lack of suitable implements for them to utilize. Then, there is the problem of a lack of fertilizer, notably anhydrous ammonia, phosphate rock from Canada, and other inputs that would be unavailable without electrical power.

The first month would be a major problem with the food supply and shipping systems down. I think we would see something approaching Mad Max for a time. I am reminded of someone's description of the Middle Ages, saying that "life was ugly, brutish, and short".


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## hiwall

A member just put a short story on the forum about this very thing. Called "Dirty Money". It is a good read. In the story he talks about many of the things discussed above on this thread. Without fuel and electric a great number of people are toast.


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## LincTex

hiwall said:


> A member just put a short story on the forum about this very thing. Called "Dirty Money". It is a good read.


http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f55/dirty-money-12414/


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## machinist

Yup, that would be me. Thanks!


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