# Stealing is NOT prepping



## kejmack (May 17, 2011)

I have noticed a disturbing increase in the number of "preppers" posting that their plan is to steal things. This is not prepping. Stealing gas or stealing someone's horses or stealing from someone's orchard is NOT prepping. 

I have worked for many years to prepare for my family. If I catch you stealing my horse or from my fruit trees, it will be the last time you ever steal anything. 

The idea that someone would call themselves a prepper when their plan is to go out and steal someone else's preparations is disgusting.


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## BlissMommy (Apr 18, 2012)

Kejmack, I agree with you. Prepping is about being ready, not looting and pillaging.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Then get used to the idea of booby trapping everything that you own.somebody somewhere will come looking for it sooner or later.probably SEVERAL somebodies.


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

kejmack said:


> I have noticed a disturbing increase in the number of "preppers" posting that their plan is to steal things. This is not prepping. Stealing gas or stealing someone's horses or stealing from someone's orchard is NOT prepping.
> 
> I have worked for many years to prepare for my family. If I catch you stealing my horse or from my fruit trees, it will be the last time you ever steal anything.
> 
> The idea that someone would call themselves a prepper when their plan is to go out and steal someone else's preparations is disgusting.





Magus said:


> Then get used to the idea of booby trapping everything that you own.somebody somewhere will come looking for it sooner or later.probably SEVERAL somebodies.


Have to agree with BOTH of you here. Stealing as a plan is BS, but let us make the distinction between theft and scavenging.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

> Stealing as a plan is BS, but let us make the distinction between theft and scavenging.


+1. Going into an abandoned McDonalds after the collapse and grabbing the last packages of buns may be stealing it's also survival. Right and wrong however will blur quickly when things to go hell-in-a-hand-basket and people will justify anything they do that helps them survive as okay. It will be my job to make sure that my preps will cost them too much to acquire. Way too much.


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## tugboats (Feb 15, 2009)

With all of the entitlement going on everywhere I am not at all suprised. I have read some posts where the poster feels that someone elses hard work and prior planning is available to them. Just because a house is not occupied does not give someone the right to loot it or squat. This attitude is pervasive in our society.

Honor is what you do when nobody is looking. My faith teaches me to always try to do the right thing. Faith is gradually being removed in our world. How will they explain to the Guy Upstairs that it was OK to steal food from others? 

I will probably help others willingly but will defend my "stuff" and family if someone decides to take it. We need to be better than the scum that steals from others. We all have worked hard to put food and supplies back. I'll be darned if some "entitlement" boob wants to take it. I won't need to shoot them, I'll be so mad that..........I will insert the bullets MANUALLY.

I see no harm in scavenging garbage dumps and trash piles but I doubt I could bring myself to steal from others. That abandoned home belongs to someone that is tending to elderly family, on thier way home or is stuck out of town. I detest selfish, self entitled, dregs of society.

I know that you and many others will walk the right path but my concern are for those that think they can have all they want by force. Sorry for the rant.

Tugs


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## kejmack (May 17, 2011)

Magus said:


> Then get used to the idea of booby trapping everything that you own.somebody somewhere will come looking for it sooner or later.probably SEVERAL somebodies.


They can come looking all they want. That is also part of my preparations, too. Like I said in my previous post, it will be the last time they ever steal. We are prepared to deal with thieves.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

I have mixed feelings on this. We all know stealing is wrong. In the situation that we are talking about, I assume many would be dead. If your neighbors die, is it stealing to harvest their garden or orchard? Or just let it rot. If it is ok to harvest their produce then what about their canned food in their house? If the canned goods freeze in the winter and burst it will go to waste - so is it ok to use it or let it go to waste? What about their livestock? Let the livestock loose and it will most likely die. So the answers are not so black and white.


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## Padre (Oct 7, 2011)

hiwall said:


> If your neighbors die, is it stealing to harvest their garden or orchard? .


There are some who suggest or think that they are going to take other people's stuff to survive, that's morally wrong, and dangerous to your health. But there are also a lot of people like me who would never steal, but would take abandoned property. At sea where the rule of law is limited, the rule has traditionally been finders keepers, when property is abandoned. That's esentially what hiwall is asking.

I have a real problem with people moralizing about stealing based on normalcy bias. We are speaking about a world without the rule of law.


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

I see it as rather unlikely I'll be faced with this particular situation due to where I live. the most complicated animals people have around here are dogs, some chickens (soon to be some at my place too, or ducks... I havent 100% decided yet)

If I was out in the rural country instead of a city and I had the land and animals... I think here's how I'd approach Hiwall's scenario, the neighbors are 100% dead, whether its from disease, raiding thugs, whatever... so now what?

I'd harvest the garden and replant it as if it were mine, I'd keep it going, and I'd probably eat veggies mixed in with mine.

I'd move the livestock to my farm house and I'd tend them with the same care as if they were mine, I would know how many of what I got though so I dont figure it would be too difficult to keep track of them. 

I'd leave the house pretty much as it was, maybe board up the windows and doors if they weren't already.

All of this on the assumption that the neighbors had kids or other relatives who may show up to claim what is rightfully theirs. And I'd have done my part to see that they get it. Sure, I'd keep the wool from the sheep and milk from the cows, I'm not going to just let it sit there and rot, and if basic simple trade starts opening again, the money from that would help offset some of the cost and energy of keeping those things sustained. 

If nobody ever shows up than mores the pity, because my neighbors family didn't survive either. I guess at some point, 5 years or whatever? I'd donate some of the animals to either whatever kind of local church charity or something gets setup and I'm sure there would be survivors that would be in need. I'd consider the rest mine... until such a day as the neighbors family did appear, then I'd give them the full stock that was left behind.


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## pandamonium (Feb 6, 2011)

Post collapse, if true law and order is not restored. Most of the sheeple have either expired or left, if it truely anarchy, then whatever is left is going to be fair game. Like it or not, that is how it will be.

I will not try to take something that is in someone elses posession. That is how you get dead, and just wrong. The whole treat others like you like to be treated thing. BUT, if I come across "stuff" that is obviously either overlooked or discarded, I wont hesitate. Again, this is POST collapse.


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

After a event with huge loss a life, there ain't gonna be no black an white situation, gonna be lotsa grey area as far as existin an morals go.

I agree with pandamonium, ifin it obviously don't belong ta somebody, make use a it rather then waste a resource.

I will not raid someone just because they got resources. I prepare so I don't have ta an that includes knowin where manmade an natural resources be that I will need. I also know the resources fer a large area around us so ifin we be forced ta move I have an idear where ta obtain thins were gonna need.

Most a the folk round here be perty much oblivous ta what be kept here er there in this buildin er that. They drive by with blinders on cause they don't care an never thin bout "what if". I on the other hand make note a what be where.


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## teotwaki (Aug 31, 2010)

I think that after any collapse that it will be difficult to draw distinct black and white decisions. As mentioned earlier, try to live and act honorably. Make every effort to discern what has been abandoned from what may still be in use. Likewise, if a starving person is on your land taking fruit from your orchard do you absolutely have to shoot on sight?? Honor might demand that you stop them at gunpoint and maybe convince them to work off their debt. It may be better to show a little mercy and possibly gain an ally.

On the other hand, if a bunch of gun-toting raiders come within Claymore range go ahead and detonate!


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## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

Today, black and white is easily seen. Again as stated earlier, I doubt there is one soul on this board who would steal something today... At least i hope not.

However, SHTF world, will have grey lines drawn all about. To answer the great question about a neighbor who has past, but has a garden, livestock, etc. I would also tend to the garden, add livestock to my own. If i knew they had a child that survived or small animals say a dog, I would welcome them into my own as if they are my own too, even though it means another mouth to feed. 

I think there is a big difference between abandoned and occupied in a post SHTF world.. Abandoned is up for grabs, yes I to would also look in a McDees to see if there is anything useful or a WalMart, etc. 

Each and everyone of us who is preparing, will not be completely prepared because no one can have every skill, tool, or necessary item needed. No one can think of every single item needed too, and be 100% prepared. Yes, there are those that are self-reliant on here, but I don't think you have everything (100%) you need without going to the store every once in a while... Gas for the car/truck/generator, some tool, so item... So, SHTF you will still need items occasionally... With no open stores, no barter system yet in place, neighbor down the road dead and gone, your saying that you would never check to see if there was something that you might need that is no longer useful to them, but could be life saving to you? If so, I call BS.


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## tugboats (Feb 15, 2009)

This is not aimed at any one person. Just ask yourself some of these questions and see what your answer will be.

Rationalizing looting still makes it looting. Who is going to determine what is or is not abandoned. You may be foraging for game; you are not there…..is your garden now mine? Those fruit trees you planted and nurtured for so many years….if you are not around this week can I take all of your fruit? You are off on a fishing trip; Can I now squat in your house? You are off tending to an injured child some distance away; Is your wife abandoned?????

Some of the scenarios presented indicated a major die off. What are you going to do? Step over their rotting carcass….shout “screw you”….loot their house….step back over the body with your new found bounty and head for home? 

If I were to stumble on one of your geo-caches and it appeared that you had not been around for 6 months is it mine for the taking? If your dropped your skinning knife in the woods is that mine? That deer you shot that ran three hundred yards before it died; is that mine for the taking? If you lower yourself to the level of the “scum sucking bastards” do you not become one as well? Is this the world you want to live in? My guess is this is the closest thing to Hell on earth.

This Country was founded by God Fearing men that believed in rule of law. We have become a great nation because, until recently, we have been a nation of laws. Law and order are the foundations of our rights as free Americans. I believe in the greatness of this republic and for all that it stands. This nations future is in our hands and in times of 
Crisis we have a responsibility to restore the rule of law and individual rights.

In the scenario that was presented about the great die off. Would it not be far more prudent to organize locals, bury the dead to prevent the spread of disease, eliminate the vermin that spread the disease, and try to reestablish local order and law? We, as preppers, will need to take the lead in this endeavor. We are prepared with food, weapons, I trust everyone has a copy of the Constitution, and the where with all to restore our Country to the GREAT NATION that it is?

After a major crisis we will need to rebuild this nation one city block, one subdivision, one city, one county, one state at a time in order to bring this Republic back to her glory.
We are Americans. We need to act as Americans. We need to be the leaders and maintain the ideals that have made this Country great. 

Sorry about the rant but I think we can all do better than those lowlife, scum sucking, long haired, maggot infested, entitled, communist leaning pinkos that are all off hugging trees, kissing bunnies and causing turmoil.

Tugs


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

tugboats said:


> This is not aimed at any one person. Just ask yourself some of these questions and see what your answer will be.
> 
> Rationalizing looting still makes it looting. Who is going to determine what is or is not abandoned. You may be foraging for game; you are not there&#8230;..is your garden now mine? Those fruit trees you planted and nurtured for so many years&#8230;.if you are not around this week can I take all of your fruit? You are off on a fishing trip; Can I now squat in your house? You are off tending to an injured child some distance away; Is your wife abandoned?????
> 
> ...


I have to disagree with you. If there's an abandoned property after SHTF and there are fruit trees with fruit on them then people should eat it and not just leave it there to rot. You could defend that by the biblical principle of gleaning as defined in the Old Testament.

If there's a house full of dead people and they have firewood piled outside I don't have a problem taking it if it's going to help me survive. I wouldn't take their jewelry or search their house for silver or gold coins. I also wouldn't take stuff just to take it but I might look for certain things if I needed them. 
We'll be looking at a situation where 90% of Americans are going to die and the vast majority of them will have no living close relatives to inherit their property.

We'll be living without the rule of law where everyone will have to fight to survive. I think it would be the patriotic duty of the dead to provide the living with the things they need if the dead have them.

If I was dead in my house and living alone, why would I care about what other people took? If there was anything they could use then I should be glad if they took it. The last thing I'd want is for more people to die because they wouldn't look for the things they needed.

America is a country NOW. We have the rule of law NOW. America as we know it today will be gone forever. It's not coming back. We'll have a situation so bad that drastic measures will be needed to survive. I don't have a problem with people taking things from the dead if it helps them to survive.
That doesn't mean we have a license to take anything we want from anybody, living or dead. But it makes sense to look for things as we have needs.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

kejmack said:


> They can come looking all they want. That is also part of my preparations, too. Like I said in my previous post, it will be the last time they ever steal. We are prepared to deal with thieves.


And suppose you blow up a hungry orphan or some widowed mother looking for something for her kids hmmm?

What then Rambo? suppose one of your own steps in one of your traps?


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

invision said:


> I think there is a big difference between abandoned and occupied in a post SHTF world.. Abandoned is up for grabs, yes I to would also look in a McDees to see if there is anything useful or a WalMart, etc.


Morality is not so maleable. There borders on the bright line tests are pretty far removed, even in a post-SHTF world. Does this belong to someone? It does? Then it doesn't belong to you. You've probably heard the saying "Bad planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part." well similarly, your inconvenient circumstances don't wash away the stain of the immoral act that you're perpetrating. The circumstances have to be fairly extreme and also pretty cut and dried in order to minimize or extinguish the immorality.

Look, today when a child is abandoned we call the police on siting her. In a post-SHTF world it would still be an immoral act to take that abandoned child and make her a sex slave. What's her alternative, to starve in the world without your protection? You see how rationalization works? Humans are pretty damn good at rationalizing anything in order to get what they want.

If property doesn't belong to you then it belongs to someone else and it is that someone else's prerogative to dispose of their property as they best see fit. If they take some proactive measure to make their property available to the public, say by throwing it out of their car or house and onto the street, then you can safely assume that they didn't want the property, they don't control the property and they didn't want to give their property to those of their choosing. However, if their property is situated somewhere where there is no bright red line distinguishing it as being disposed of, then the property still remains theirs to control, even if they are not present at the moment you come across their property.



> With no open stores, no barter system yet in place, neighbor down the road dead and gone, your saying that you would never check to see if there was something that you might need that is no longer useful to them, but could be life saving to you? If so, I call BS.


And when that neighbor's family arrives at the home after a long and arduous journey they find that their father's property, which he wanted them to have, has been stolen by people who conjured up some excuse to forget their own sense of right and wrong.

Look, I don't doubt that looting is going to take place and I also don't doubt that women and children are going to become sex slaves and both of these situations represent a fall from civilization and their perpetrators will have conjured up rationalizations to justify their evil acts.

My advice is to go and scavenge at the city dump because everything that is in the dump has passed the bright red line test - people who owned the items at the dump have purposely thrown them away. Go for it.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

Magus said:


> And suppose you blow up a hungry orphan or some widowed mother looking for something for her kids hmmm?
> 
> What then Rambo? suppose one of your own steps in one of your traps?


Things like that are going to happen. Some of it I'm sure will be done knowingly, and some of it will be circumstance or misunderstanding. If a person shows up with a gun and a crowbar, it's going to be pretty obvious what they intend to do.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Indeed, but this guy was talking booby traps or some crap.
If I had a kid or a buddy that wandered in on him by accident there would be war where there was none!
If some scuzz is raiding you fine, pop his nugget, but don't be leaving stuff around somebody passing through could get killed in!


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

Ok, lets just boil this down ta the absolute simplest terms.

Live er die.

Now the choice be yers. 

I'll be civil, but ifin I've survived whatever caused this, I entend ta live an give my family a chance. I will not waste resources that present themselves. Waste to be a sin. Were all human, we will make decisions based on place, time, need an information what be available.

I fear some yall gonna have a wake up call should some disaster bring this bout. You may very well find yerself questionin yer belief's an morals. I've seen it happen in places ya don't wanna find yerself.

Man can an will survive, it ain't always perty.


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## Dakine (Sep 4, 2012)

zombieresponder said:


> Things like that are going to happen. Some of it I'm sure will be done knowingly, and some of it will be circumstance or misunderstanding. If a person shows up with a gun and a crowbar, it's going to be pretty obvious what they intend to do.


those obvious ones are the least of my concerns. hi bad guy. boom. bye bad guy. I didnt go looking to make him dead, he made that happen. I dont have problems sleeping when that happens.

but when it comes down to survival for me, and it's the mom with the kids, am I supposed to give up all I have to let them in instead of letting her steal from me? because I have to either let her take it, stop her from taking it and hope she doesnt tell anyone about me, or I have to stop her and make sure she doesnt ever say anything to anyone about me right? and yeah I get she needs it, but hey, so do I... and if I turn the other cheek, am I to blindly believe she'll take a couple eggs and move on down the road to become someone else's problem, or will she stay around here like stray animals and consider this her foraging area? Will she tell others where she got the eggs? Eventually some thug is going to find her, beat her and get the info, or she'll willingly tell him to curry favor with whom she thinks is strong and will protect her and her kids... so now I have to deal with that idiot and all his idiot friends because I didnt drop the hammer on the (thieving/foraging) mom in the first place?

These are the people who make horrible decisions today. They might be living a great life with a great job, great family, big house, 2 cars, 2.3 kids, dogs cat and a goldfish... but they spend $10K a year on vacations and Christmas presents and not a single dime on making sure the long term stability of their family is being protected. you ask them about that and they tell you about college funds and 401k's.

Their piss poor decisions today will put me through hell tomorrow. I'm not cool with that at all. And I don't have an answer for it either.


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

Ok, tough talk aside.

How many yall ever killed somebody? Looked through them sites an squized the trigger?

Not very damn many a ya. Easy ta talk tough about it. What ain't easy is what ya live with after ya done it. You'll never ferget it an they'll be nights ya relive it all over. 

Now back ta the reality show.


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## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

OldCootHillbilly said:


> Ok, lets just boil this down ta the absolute simplest terms.
> 
> Live er die.
> 
> ...


Amen OldCootHillbilly. You dead on with that statement.


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## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

Bobbb - I want to call BS on your logic for one reason. In a SHTF scenario either being EMP or financial collapse would cause a 80-90% die off of populations. I have a year or two of preps now. However, their will not be industries to make new hiking boots in 4-5 yr out... If only 80% of the population is dead, the the fact that the abandoned property still has an owner is VERY VERY highly unlikely. 

I am of the same fraternity of most of the signers of the declaration of independence and the fouding fathers of our great Nation. But I also believe in being able to provide for myself and my family. I am feel that I am an extremely honorable, moral, and ethical individual. I would do what ever i could for another individual to my ability, however I must protect and provide for my family first and myself second.

While you walk past an obviously abandoned house with an acre of apple trees with fresh fruit on your way to the city dump, I will wave as I make apple pie.

Btw- I own stock in WalMart, McDees, and many other places.... Therefore I am an OWNER


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

It is very easy to say one thing today in the land of plenty but sing a different tune when you are starving. So you got alot of preps now, doesn't mean you can't lose them. They could be stolen or you could have a fire and lose them. The only way to survive is to do what you have to do to survive. Both now and later.


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

Does going to the range to practice with your firearm mean that you plan to shoot someone? Not scavenging ABANDONED stores, fuel dumps and rescuing livestock would be kind of nonsenscicle. as stated above if kin came looking for the livestock, they should be pretty happy that they had been cared for and are ALIVE instead of starve to death. Same with fuel, let it sit and go bad or use it for food production etc. Leave stuff in stores to rot or salvage it to help rebuild society. cause that is going to need to happen.
Don't be taking stuff that obviously is someone elses, and if it seems abandoned some sort of record should be kept. But to just let stuff that people/ livestock need to live just rot is pretty silly. 
People who think that just cause the lights are of makes it a free for all need warning shots fired thru their head. But having people starve because somebody might come looking for things that would be junk by the time,or if they showed up makes no sense.


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## Theriot (Aug 17, 2012)

I think there is a lesson to be learned by listening to what some of the plans people have to survive and know that there is some planning much worst. Take it as a learning experience and prep for worse.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

invision said:


> Bobbb - I want to call BS on your logic for one reason. In a SHTF scenario either being EMP or financial collapse would cause a 80-90% die off of populations. I have a year or two of preps now. However, their will not be industries to make new hiking boots in 4-5 yr out... If only 80% of the population is dead, the the fact that the abandoned property still has an owner is VERY VERY highly unlikely.
> 
> I am of the same fraternity of most of the signers of the declaration of independence and the fouding fathers of our great Nation. But I also believe in being able to provide for myself and my family. I am feel that I am an extremely honorable, moral, and ethical individual. I would do what ever i could for another individual to my ability, however I must protect and provide for my family first and myself second.
> 
> ...


Howdy Brother.

Traveling to the East?


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## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

Been to the east and back.. PM Roswell 135


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

Magus said:


> And suppose you blow up a hungry orphan or some widowed mother looking for something for her kids hmmm?
> 
> What then Rambo? suppose one of your own steps in one of your traps?


Wow ... Magus has gone soft ... 

Who would have thought that?

My family comes first also ... :wave:


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## Resto (Sep 7, 2012)

kejmack said:


> I have noticed a disturbing increase in the number of "preppers" posting that their plan is to steal things. This is not prepping. Stealing gas or stealing someone's horses or stealing from someone's orchard is NOT prepping.
> 
> I have worked for many years to prepare for my family. If I catch you stealing my horse or from my fruit trees, it will be the last time you ever steal anything.
> 
> The idea that someone would call themselves a prepper when their plan is to go out and steal someone else's preparations is disgusting.


Stealing is looting, after TSHTF "ALL LOOTERS WILL BE TRIED AND PUNISHED UP TO AND INCLUDING A LONG DIRT NAPP"
I can understand useing whats left post SHTF to survive, sheeple will be doing it alot. But that is not prepping and Post SHTF I would have a problem trusting anyone who did not prep.


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## Zanazaz (Feb 14, 2012)

Resto said:


> Stealing is looting, after TSHTF "ALL LOOTERS WILL BE TRIED AND PUNISHED UP TO AND INCLUDING A LONG DIRT NAPP"
> I can understand useing whats left post SHTF to survive, sheeple will be doing it alot. But that is not prepping and Post SHTF I would have a problem trusting anyone who did not prep.


Looting...


> Looting (Hindi lūṭ, akin to Sanskrit luṭhati, [he] steals; also Latin latro, latronis "thief")-also referred to as sacking, plundering, despoiling, despoliation, and pillaging-is the indiscriminate taking of goods by force as part of a military or political victory, or during a catastrophe, such as during war,[1] natural disaster,[2] or rioting.[3] The term is also used in a broader sense, to describe egregious instances of theft and embezzlement, such as the "plundering" of private or public assets by corrupt or greedy authorities.[4] *Looting is loosely distinguished from scavenging by the objects taken; scavenging implies taking of essential items such as food, water, shelter, or other material needed for survival while looting implies items of luxury or not necessary for survival such as art work, precious metals or other valuables. *The proceeds of all these activities can be described as loot, plunder, or pillage. Modern commercial actors are seldom held accountable for their role in the illegal exploitation of natural resources from modern conflict zones, even though pillage is prosecuted as a matter of course in other contexts.[5]


If the SHTF, and there is a major societal collapse and population die off, it's better for the survivors to protect goods, and assets. If you're in a rural location are you going to let farm animals die off it their owners have died or fled? The animals die of starvation, or predation, and the carcasses rot on the ground. This can cause the spread of disease. Oh but it would be looting to relocate the animals. Are you going to leave a deceased neighbors firearms vulnerable? Someone might come along and take them and use them against you.

I could make several more examples, but I don't think it's necessary. I wonder how many here who are vehemently against looting ( their term ), when push comes to shove, wouldn't resort to taking abandoned food or equipment?

There is a huge difference between looting, and scavenging.

In a major population die off, valuable resources need to be protected, and used if necessary. It won't be looting to relocate items to one location to more easily protect it.

Some people need to get off their high horse. The rules could very well change. In a PAW you need to be adaptable to survive.


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## Moby76065 (Jul 31, 2012)

hiwall said:


> I have mixed feelings on this. We all know stealing is wrong. In the situation that we are talking about, I assume many would be dead. If your neighbors die, is it stealing to harvest their garden or orchard? Or just let it rot. If it is ok to harvest their produce then what about their canned food in their house? If the canned goods freeze in the winter and burst it will go to waste - so is it ok to use it or let it go to waste? What about their livestock? Let the livestock loose and it will most likely die. So the answers are not so black and white.


I STRONGLY disagree sir! That answer is indeed black & white. 
If their dead you're not stealing!


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## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

I believe he agrees with you.


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

OldCootHillbilly said:


> Ok, tough talk aside.
> 
> How many yall ever killed somebody? Looked through them sites an squized the trigger?
> 
> ...


 From one that has "been there and done that" to another, *there it is! *


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## oldvet (Jun 29, 2010)

Folks Coot is absolutely correct (IMO) with everything he has posted, in a post SHTF world you will do what you have to do to keep your family fed. If anything that has been abandoned is worth taking and using rather than letting it die, spoil or rot, then IMO you take it and put it to good use. That is using common sense and in my book is not stealing. 

Coot is also correct about taking a life, you never know exactly what you will do until you are faced with a decision like that. You will feel fear, anger, sorrow, confusion and any number of other emotions if you are ever in a situation where you either shoot or you or a member of your family may die. 

Coot is absolutely correct that taking a life wheather in a combat situation (firefight), in the line of duty as a LEO, or protecting yourself or your loved ones is something that you will live with the rest of your life. 

Since I have been in that position where I had no choice but to return fire and take more than one life during my tour, I can truthfully say that I will not hesitate to pull the trigger if I feel that it is my only option.

So unless you have "been there done that" and "seen the elephant", Coot is correct in that you really don't know what you will do.

Sorry for the long winded rant, but I just wanted to add some backup to the truth that Coot laid out.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

Ya know, some folks are in a SHTF situation right now. They don't have a home, car, job, or money. Is it okay for them to do the things some of you are talking about doing? 

What does it matter if there is no govt, no rule of law? What does that have to do right & wrong? Wasn't it Paul Harvey who said something about freedom only working if the people are moral? 

I would take the animals because I would want someone to take care of my fur babies if something happened to me. In my faith, we are commanded to take care of the animals. Would I go get my neighbor's equipment? Yep, but I would do it today, we have that kind of relationship. Would I take the food in the garden? Yep, & keep a record of it & pay for it in the event one of their kids were able to make it back. They have no problem getting food from ours & that's the way my neighbor would want it. I would secure their house & other assets best I could & bury their bodies. I would take their wedding rings for safe keeping. 

My faith is not one of relative values & it is the root of who I am. Many of you would rather die free than live as a slave; in the same way I would rather die than live a life contrary to my faith. I do not fear death. Survival is not my ultimate goal in life, to one day hear "well done My good & faithful servant" is.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

BlissMommy said:


> Kejmack, I agree with you. Prepping is about being ready, not looting and pillaging.


Reminds me of a story I just read about TEOTWAWKI.

Survivor is trekking across country headed towards his family's home. Survivor was out of food when he spied a farm house. He watched the house for several hours and saw no movement. As he circled the house the he called out "hello?" and got no answer, but he did find two freshly dug graves. He then looked in the windows, obviously abandoned.

He broke out a pane of glass to unlock the door. Found some food supplies and decided to stay the night.

Next morning he had the feeling that he was being watch so sat down away from the front window and watched the tree line, he saw movement! A rifle barrel pointed his way and someone's head partially hidden behind a tree. Survivor figures someone is trying to ambush him (not the first time) so he carefully takes a killing shot.

Survivor waits a few hours before circling around behind the Ambusher. Ambusher is a 12 year old boy with a 22 rifle and few dead squirrels.

Survivor back at the farm house discovers on the fire place mantel a picture of an older couple and the boy the Survivor had just killed. Evidently the boy's parents had died; the boy had buried them and was hunting when a stranger (the Survivor) invaded his house.

When you "take" what is obviously to you abandoned you could be really be taking someone's preps and causing them grievously injury.


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## kejmack (May 17, 2011)

Magus, you are never going to agree with anything I post so why bother answering.


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## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

tsrwivey said:


> Ya know, some folks are in a SHTF situation right now. They don't have a home, car, job, or money. Is it okay for them to do the things some of you are talking about doing?.


You know I was out driving today, stopped in a racetrac gas station, they had a two signs, now hiring full and part time with benefits. Then went through the McDees drive through and there was a sign Now Hiring all positions for new store 5 miles away. These jobs may not be at the same income levels or skill set, but what we have is a nation of people that are too demanding and condescending to "lower" themselves down to job like that. I know an individual here in ATL, she was the client services manager for a certain financial management firm. She left. And went over to a hedge fund company for same position but $10K a year more. Now she is unemployed, first in first out... Is she looking? She did for the 1st month, that's it. One month, her point of view is, I will wait it out, I have 99 weeks of unemployment and I will just sit back, she makes more on unemployment than working in a different industry or skill level. For myself, if I had to go tend bar, or wait tables, or whatever I would. I couldn't milk the system, because I bitch to much about those type of people.



tsrwivey said:


> I would take the animals because I would want someone to take care of my fur babies if something happened to me. In my faith, we are commanded to take care of the animals. Would I go get my neighbor's equipment? Yep, but I would do it today, we have that kind of relationship. Would I take the food in the garden? Yep, & keep a record of it & pay for it in the event one of their kids were able to make it back. They have no problem getting food from ours & that's the way my neighbor would want it. I would secure their house & other assets best I could & bury their bodies. I would take their wedding rings for safe keeping.


I actually like that idea, my assumption (and yes I admit that is the word I want to use here) is that with a SHTF scenario 80-90% would die off, therefore the likelihood of some family member coming to retrieve stuff would be below 1%. I think I will take your coomments and amend my thoughts to include the idea of keeping track what was taken and such to help provide / pay back if family did show up. Unlikely to happen but still a great idea to put into place.


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## Zanazaz (Feb 14, 2012)

LazyL, that's a good point, but it is fiction. I could write a story about a group of preppers who won't scavenge what they need to survive, and in the end they DIE. If you need something you don't have, and it's a matter of LIFE or DEATH, would you choose death?

If circumstances occur that you have to scavenge from residences, then you should exercise extreme due deligence to determine that it is indeed abandoned.

Many members on this forum can say they will stick to their high moral standards, but when your child is suffering, and you need some medicine, that YOU DO NOT HAVE, you're going to tell me you're not going to try and find some? Even if that means STEALING it? ( I'm talking about a PAW situation, a total collapse, not the kind of life most of us are living now. ) What if there was a nearby town devoid of ANY population. They've all died or fled. There's a pharmacy there, and wouldn't it be better to have relocated the medicine, to a safe location, before the druggies, MZBs, or whatever come and take the narcotics they don't need to sustain their life, and while doing that destroy the useful medications?

If you can't discern the difference between looting and scavenging you have a problem.

I'm not saying scavenging should replace prepping, no way, no how. A prepper who has the means should only scavenge to sustain or save their life, or other people's lives. It's a simple concept. Scavenge to protect and maintain precious resources, not to profit, ( in a greedy way ). That would be looting. I believe it's all about intent. If you scavenge many resources, and use up your own resources doing so then it's okay to profit a bit, at the very least recoup what you "spent". Why? Because you have expended some effort and time, and possibly faced some risk doing so.

It's great if you've managed to prepare to survive long term, but eventually I think many people will rethink their stance on scavenging. Scavenging to survive is not immoral or evil, especially in a total collapse of society. Do not impose your skewed concepts on me.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

invision said:


> You know I was out driving today, stopped in a racetrac gas station, they had a two signs, now hiring full and part time with benefits. Then went through the McDees drive through and there was a sign Now Hiring all positions for new store 5 miles away. These jobs may not be at the same income levels or skill set, but what we have is a nation of people that are too demanding and condescending to "lower" themselves down to job like that. I know an individual here in ATL, she was the client services manager for a certain financial management firm. She left. And went over to a hedge fund company for same position but $10K a year more. Now she is unemployed, first in first out... Is she looking? She did for the 1st month, that's it. One month, her point of view is, I will wait it out, I have 99 weeks of unemployment and I will just sit back, she makes more on unemployment than working in a different industry or skill level. For myself, if I had to go tend bar, or wait tables, or whatever I would. I couldn't milk the system, because I bitch to much about those type .


Working those type jobs won't even pay for daycare & there's laws against hanging kids on the back of a door like a bat.  That is if there's even a daycare that's open in the evenings or on weekends. Our city has nearly 100k people & no daycare open past 6:30 or on weekends. It causes a lot of problems when staffing nurses with kids.


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

Moby76065 said:


> If their dead you're not stealing!


And liberals and the government agree with you! If you're dead you have no use for your estate and the government should get it all. As liberals are fond of saying, it's not your money or property any longer because you're dead.

The question that remains that must be answered today and in a post-SHTF tomorrow is whether it is stealing when you steal, not from the dead person but from his heirs.


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## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

tsrwivey said:


> Working those type jobs won't even pay for daycare & there's laws against hanging kids on the back of a door like a bat.  That is if there's even a daycare that's open in the evenings or on weekends. Our city has nearly 100k people & no daycare open past 6:30 or on weekends. It causes a lot of problems when staffing nurses with kids.


I have never payed for daycare, so I don't know the costs. I know my 13 yr old step-daughter babysits for a few bucks an hour on some evenings... my parents were both working professionals, I remember my mom taking me to Cindy (my mom's hairdresser) who took care of me in the morning and after school for a few bucks an hour, I was the same age as her son. Cindy is my second mom, and her son has been someone I have called a friend since then... I am just saying, if there is a will there is a way, otherwise there can always be excuses - sounds harsh, but is true too. I can think of dozens of items that could go immediately if needed just in my own home.

Phone
Dsl
Cable
All three vehicles could be sold for even money and two beaters bought.
My gym membership
My wife's weekly mani/pedi
Instead of buying del Monte, it would be generic

Etc


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## Zanazaz (Feb 14, 2012)

tsrwivey said:


> Ya know, some folks are in a SHTF situation right now. They don't have a home, car, job, or money. Is it okay for them to do the things some of you are talking about doing?
> 
> What does it matter if there is no govt, no rule of law? What does that have to do right & wrong? Wasn't it Paul Harvey who said something about freedom only working if the people are moral? .


Come on! A little common sense goes a long way. I think when most people talk about scavenging ( especially in this thread, they are refering to doing so in a total collapse of society. Today there are plenty of help for people who will look for it, food banks, shelters, etc.



tsrwivey said:


> I would take the animals because I would want someone to take care of my fur babies if something happened to me. In my faith, we are commanded to take care of the animals. Would I go get my neighbor's equipment? Yep, but I would do it today, we have that kind of relationship. Would I take the food in the garden? Yep, & keep a record of it & pay for it in the event one of their kids were able to make it back. They have no problem getting food from ours & that's the way my neighbor would want it. I would secure their house & other assets best I could & bury their bodies. I would take their wedding rings for safe keeping.


This of course isn't looting or scavenging, it's being a good steward of your neighbor's possessions on the off chance relatives show up.



tsrwivey said:


> My faith is not one of relative values & it is the root of who I am. Many of you would rather die free than live as a slave; in the same way I would rather die than live a life contrary to my faith. I do not fear death. Survival is not my ultimate goal in life, to one day hear "well done My good & faithful servant" is.


If survival isn't your ultimate goal then why prep? I do not fear death either, but I KNOW God doesn't want me to roll over and die! If that means taking from an abandoned store after TSHTF and society has totally collpased then that's what I'm going to do. Are you going to pray for food, yet walk by the store, windows smashed out, with food lying on the floor? Who does the food belong to at this point? A store owner who is dead? Stockholders who are dead? Or NO ONE? Using a religous arguement, who does it ultimately belong to? Hhhmmm... perhaps GOD? You don't think he wouldn't want you to have it? To gather more and share it with others? Think about it...

Have you ever asked your Priest/Preacher/Clergyman what they think about scavenging to survive? Again, to be clear and concise, this would be in a total collapse situation. I think the answer may surprise you. I'm sure some would say it's immoral, but many probably wouldn't.

You anti-scavengers do what you want, but me, I'm going to do what it takes to survive. I won't steal, or kill, to take what belong's to someone else, but if something is abandoned, I will take it before it's destroyed, spoiled, etc. And if I get enough, I can use it to help someone else.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

> You know I was out driving today, stopped in a racetrac gas station, they had a two signs, now hiring full and part time with benefits. Then went through the McDees drive through and there was a sign Now Hiring all positions for new store 5 miles away. These jobs may not be at the same income levels or skill set, but what we have is a nation of people that are too demanding and condescending to "lower" themselves down to job like that. I know an individual here in ATL, she was the client services manager for a certain financial management firm. She left. And went over to a hedge fund company for same position but $10K a year more. Now she is unemployed, first in first out... Is she looking? She did for the 1st month, that's it. One month, her point of view is, I will wait it out, I have 99 weeks of unemployment and I will just sit back, she makes more on unemployment than working in a different industry or skill level. For myself, if I had to go tend bar, or wait tables, or whatever I would. I couldn't milk the system, because I bitch to much about those type of people.


Re-posted for truth. There are a lot of jobs where I live and still there is unemployment. We are not having a jobs crisis, we're having a too-lazy-to-work crisis. Can't afford daycare? Get a night job. No one to watch your kids at night, call your Mom. No mom? Find another person in the same situation as you and team up. There's almost always a solution when you get off your ass and look for it. And stealing from your neighbors while under the rule of law in our so called civilized society is not the solution I am talking about.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

invision said:


> I have never payed for daycare, so I don't know the costs. I know my 13 yr old step-daughter babysits for a few bucks an hour on some evenings... my parents were both working professionals, I remember my mom taking me to Cindy (my mom's hairdresser) who took care of me in the morning and after school for a few bucks an hour, I was the same age as her son. Cindy is my second mom, and her son has been someone I have called a friend since then... I am just saying, if there is a will there is a way, otherwise there can always be excuses - sounds harsh, but is true too. I can think of dozens of items that could go immediately if needed just in my Etc


When you don't make enough to pay your expenses, it's not a job it's a hobby.  I'm totally with you on Folks milking the system though. I'm a nurse so I won't be getting a 99 week vacation funded by the taxpayers.  Hubby's in construction & still manages to keep enough work to keep him & all his employees working. Some areas of the country are a lot worse off than others though.


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## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

Sentry18 said:


> Re-posted for truth. There are a lot of jobs where I live and still there is unemployment. We are not having a jobs crisis, we're having a too-lazy-to-work crisis. Can't afford daycare? Get a night job. No one to watch your kids at night, call your Mom. No mom? Find another person in the same situation as you and team up. There's almost always a solution when you get off your ass and look for it.


Amen...

All the years I grew up, I watched my dad Teach full time, own/operate apartments full time, own/operate a sign company full time, plus he sold real estate on the weekends (mainly when he was buying 2-10 houses a year - but he still had required office time by the broker). My mom started college the same time she started me, she finished a quarter early and taught full time, during this time she also assisted in managing the books, helping with cleaning new apartments or cleaning up for new tenants, answer business calls at all hours day and night. When i was old enough, say 7-8, i didn't go to the sitter on weekends, i was helping out - pushing a broom, holding a trash bag, fetching a screw driver, holding a small sign up while it was secured into place.

Together, as teachers they have put forth the effort to be very very successful. 1% successful.

Almost anyone can work if they want too... If anyone wants the finer things in life, it's a matter of effort willing to put into ones work too.


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## Zanazaz (Feb 14, 2012)

Bobbb said:


> And liberals and the government agree with you! If you're dead you have no use for your estate and the government should get it all. As liberals are fond of saying, it's not your money or property any longer because you're dead.
> 
> The question that remains that must be answered today and in a post-SHTF tomorrow is whether it is stealing when you steal, not from the dead person but from his heirs.


This post made me laugh a little. Hopefully the heirs will be close by, otherwise if/when they show up all they will inherit is probably an empty, burnt shell of a house.

Maybe they go check with the neighbors and ask what happened. The neighbor shrugs and says, Well, I thought about securing their belongings after they died, but that would be looting. I thought you would get here sooner. Then last month some marauders showed up, and took everything, and burnt down the house. Sorry....

Also, I don't know how many times I've read about preppers who don't want their clueless, sheeple inlaws to show up after TSHTF! I guess after your dead it's okay? :dunno:


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## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

tsrwivey said:


> When you don't make enough to pay your expenses, it's not a job it's a hobby.  I'm totally with you on Folks milking the system though. I'm a nurse so I won't be getting a 99 week vacation funded by the taxpayers.  Hubby's in construction & still manages to keep enough work to keep him & all his employees working. Some areas of the country are a lot worse off than others though.


Hmm, don't know where in East Texas you are, but one thing I know is nursing is in very high demand here in south east and in my home state of Ohio... So would think there is a demand for you skills too. If your already a nurse, what about night courses to become a PA? They make good money, especially those who get on with a specialist aka cardiologist, urologist, etc. Yes, it would require night school, and student loans/grants but it could be done, in what a yr? Every small biz owner I know has been hit, I own an IT consulting company and I am down quite a bit over last few yrs. However, there has to be a time when you say, I have to provide for myself and family first, and bite the bullet on the business...

The builder who built my house for example - he had 10 yrs as electrician, and 10 yrs managing building homes, and had just branched out on his own in my subdivision right before the collapse, he built 6 of the houses, i know he made $175,000 on the sale of mine (the last of his inventory)... Ran into him at the gym a month ago, he is now working in a commercial high rise building as master engineer for electrical. He tried to out wait the RE storm, but finally got down to scraps. Now he is rebuilding his life... My thought, he waited to long, he told me he had $500,000 in the bank when he sold my house... What a shame,


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## valannb22 (Jan 6, 2012)

Daycare is outrageous! I looked into putting mine in the one daycare we have in our little town $175 for my 3 year old and $100 each for my 9/10 year olds just for after school every week. That is more money than I bring home a week, and I don't work a minimum wage job.


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## teotwaki (Aug 31, 2010)

Bobbb said:


> ---snip---The question that remains that must be answered today and in a post-SHTF tomorrow is whether it is stealing when you steal, not from the dead person but from his heirs.


That is a very good question and not easily answered. There have been a number of recent court cases about suspect artifacts at museums or about art or other valuables stolen from Holocaust victims. I imagine that any item "salvaged" in a SHTF scenario is subject to the same rule of law if and when law and order are reestablished.


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

valannb22 said:


> Daycare is outrageous! I looked into putting mine in the one daycare we have in our little town $175 for my 3 year old and $100 each for my 9/10 year olds just for after school every week. That is more money than I bring home a week, and I don't work a minimum wage job.


You can thank liberals for that. They hollered about the pink collar ghetto and low pay for daycare workers, who are predominantly women and they wanted government to regulate day cares.

I randomly picked a state to see what the requirements were. Here's Maryland:

At least 20 years old with a high school diploma or equivalent or successful completion of courses for credit from accredited college or university; *and* 6 semester hours or 90 clock hours of approved training or CDA *and either* 1 year supervised work experience in group program for preschoolers or as a registered family child care provider, or 1 year of college or equivalent combination of college and experience; or at least 19 years old and hold AA degree in early childhood education or recreation.​
Provider/Child Ratio:

Infants (1:3)
Young toddlers (1:3)
2 years (1:6)
Preschool (1:10)
Schoolage (1:15)

All ages

(1:8) no more than 2 children under age 2

Then there is all of the licensing, the insurance, the rental for the space, the employment taxes, and so on.

Daycare used to be more affordable before government got involved and started regulating who could be hired, how many kids could be taken in, etc. Sure, this was done because problems in some centers were revealed but the fault here resided with the parents for not doing their own damn homework and investigation. Like with everything, if you don't want to do the work yourself and you hire someone else to do that work for you, then you're going to be paying more for that work than if you did it yourself. In this case, if you want government to do all of your due diligence for you then you're going to pay for it with higher daycare fees.


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

teotwaki said:


> That is a very good question and not easily answered. There have been a number of recent court cases about suspect artifacts at museums or about art or other valuables stolen from Holocaust victims. I imagine that any item "salvaged" in a SHTF scenario is subject to the same rule of law if and when law and order are reestablished.


The Holocaust victims angle is an excellent one.


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## valannb22 (Jan 6, 2012)

Just curious Bobbb, is there anything negative that has happened in the last 50 years or so that you don't blame liberals for?


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

kejmack said:


> Magus, you are never going to agree with anything I post so why bother answering.


Because I like to point out how badly you FAIL at life so some poor noob doesn't read your piss poor UNEDUCATED spew and think it's a good idea, and die from it, that's why.:wave:

Even BillS has your number and we NEVER agree...except that you're a Rambo wannabe.


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## BillS (May 30, 2011)

valannb22 said:


> Just curious Bobbb, is there anything negative that has happened in the last 50 years or so that you don't blame liberals for?


Can you name some good things liberals have done?


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

valannb22 said:


> Just curious Bobbb, is there anything negative that has happened in the last 50 years or so that you don't blame liberals for?


The moral universe of liberals is stunted, by which I mean that on 2 of 5 metrics, liberals don't even recognize those metrics as belonging in a moral calculus and on the remaining 3 metrics liberals are over-enthusiastic compared to conservatives. By seeing the moral universe in an incomplete fashion liberals continuously miscalculate issues and this invariably leads to a focus on short-term gains while ignoring long-term consequences which arise from the short term gains. I can't actually think of any short-term liberal gains which have produced net benefit when the long term consequences are also factored in.

So no, most negative things in the last 50 years can be laid on the immature policy initiatives advanced by liberals.


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## Sentry18 (Aug 5, 2012)

> Can you name some good things liberals have done?


Hmmm, let me think... Well there was... Uhhhhh... I umm errrrr....









Nope, got nothing.


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## teotwaki (Aug 31, 2010)

*Preppers' Code of Conduct (Draft)*

this is moved to a new thread! Please comment here:
http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f2/preppers-code-conduct-13368/#post162768

___________________________

I will prepare myself and my family, mentally, financially and physically to the best of our abilities to survive small or large natural and man-made disasters. As best as possible I will integrate preparing into our daily lifestyle and seek to comply as best as possible with all existing laws.

In the event of any disaster I will place the health and welfare of my family first and foremost. I pledge this knowing that life or death decisions may seem to contradict man's laws and that one day I may be called to answer for those decisions. Next is the welfare and safety of my neighbors and community and I will strive to build a strong and beneficial partnership with them.

As best as possible I will seek to live legally and morally during troubled times. I will adopt and practice these guidelines that will frame my thinking, decisions and actions as best as possible.


I will not loot simply for the sake of ownership of an item.
Neither will I willfully bypass abandoned possessions or materials that may ensure the survival of myself, my family, my neighbors and my community.
Such items will be directly related to health and safety but not necessarily be taken to satisfy simple comforts or conveniences. Other items may be directly related to or necessary to rebuilding towns and communities and thus satisfy the needs of the greater good.
I recognize that although the original owners may have departed or died that their family and heirs may have a lawful claim to what I collect and that I may have to make fair restitution for the use of said items or return them if possible. At all times will I respect their property and their memories.
If circumstances occur that I have to scavenge from residences, I will exercise extreme due diligence to determine that the residence is indeed abandoned and not temporarily vacant. 
If I have to scavenge from businesses I will attempt to minimize any recovery that might damage the ability of the business to return to productivity should the events of the disaster come to a conclusion.
If others are in need I will readily share all scavenged materials for the betterment of man and community rather than hoard such materials for myself.
It is recognized that many items are perishable and cannot survive intact without proper storage. In very short time these would have little value to the original owner if they do not retain direct physical ownership. Therefore I must act quickly if said items are to be used before they become a total loss.
In a similar fashion, livestock and pets that are abandoned may perish. If I rescue them and the original owner makes a claim for return, I should expect to be able to barter for reasonable compensation for my efforts.

Life is sacred and none more so than those of my family, neighbors and community. If I must take a life of those that threaten safety and security I will do so with the recognition that I may have to answer to the rule of law.
If there are those who willfully pillage, plunder and violate morals and laws I will do all that is in my power to eliminate them as a threat to my family, neighbors and community.
If I can save a life by sharing my posessions, knowledge or by providing safety and protection I will. Simply surviving on my own is not the path I wish to follow.
After the safety and welfare of my family have been secured I will strive to work towards the betterment of all men, the protection of the ill, infirm and destitute. I will also actively strive to return to a rule of laws and morals.


(I tried to capture a lot of the good thoughts seen in this thread and I freely plagiarized. Feel free to comment on, critique and modify this initial effort.)


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## MsSage (Mar 3, 2012)

Umm back to the topic LOL 
I believe the OP was talking about people who are not prepping but when things go south will pick up their gun and go down the street cuz they know they can or have chickens and take what they want.
The major where I work is planning on that and has the nerve to call himself a sheepdog .....as I told him he is a wolf. 
For myself if I know the couple down the road are not coming back I will harvest their garden and bring the chickens to live with mine. 
I will NOT loot but I will glean. I also know I will be helping where I can when I can. A persons character will not change in times of major stress in fact that is when your true self comes out.


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## Zanazaz (Feb 14, 2012)

teotwaki said:


> I will prepare myself and my family, mentally, financially and physically to the best of our abilities to survive small or large natural and man-made disasters. As best as possible I will integrate preparing into our daily lifestyle and seek to comply as best as possible with all existing laws.
> 
> In the event of any disaster I will place the health and welfare of my family first and foremost. I pledge this knowing that life or death decisions may seem to contradict man's laws and that one day I may be called to answer for those decisions. Next is the welfare and safety of my neighbors and community and I will strive to build a strong and beneficial partnership with them.
> 
> ...


Awesome. Very well done. I'm going to give it some thought, but I think you nailed it.


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## Zanazaz (Feb 14, 2012)

MsSage said:


> Umm back to the topic LOL
> I believe the OP was talking about people who are not prepping but when things go south will pick up their gun and go down the street cuz they know they can or have chickens and take what they want.
> The major where I work is planning on that and has the nerve to call himself a sheepdog .....as I told him he is a wolf.
> For myself if I know the couple down the road are not coming back I will harvest their garden and bring the chickens to live with mine.
> I will NOT loot but I will glean. I also know I will be helping where I can when I can. A persons character will not change in times of major stress in fact that is when your true self comes out.


True, but the subject of scavenging versus looting is germane to the topic. It seems that too many people have confused the terms with one another. Looting is stealing, and I don't condone that at all. Not in any circumstance.


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## pandamonium (Feb 6, 2011)

I have a feeling that most folks here will be of the same mind as me on this. If and when the SHTF, I will, and probably most of you will also, hunker down untill the worst of the worst is over. I certainly have NO intention of being in harms way, unless harms way comes a callin, but that is another thing. This is why I prep, so I can survive the "troubles". After the troubles, I doubt there will be a whole lot of anything left, stores will be emptied and or burned, same for many homes. Folks in very rural areas will miss out on a lot of that uglyness, but you will have refugees. These refugees will have nothing more than they can carry or drag, as they roam they WILL be scavenging everything they can find to try to see another day. My point is, prolly wont be much left anyway.


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## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

Looting is taking from the living. Scavenging is taking from the dead. If I'm dead and my family with me I won't need earthly possessions so I really don't give a crap what happens to my stuff. I only hope someone with a good heart finds it. If you stopped on a highway rest stop today in the middle of nowhere and found a bag with no ID or any owner info in it and it had $1000 would you keep it? I found a money clip with money (not $1000 unfortunately!) In it. I kept it. No way to locate an owner. So what about material goods?? If anyone says they won't take and use abandoned food and goods when they are in need I call bullsh!t. If you haven't eaten in 3 days and there is a peach tree in the yard of an abandoned house you WILL eat it. Anyone who says otherwise is full of it. How many of you here have harvested fruit from the yard of a forclosed home?? I have because I will not let it go to waste and guess what??? Nobody cared. Not the bank. Not the former owners. So whether its forclosed now or dead owners later, I will harvest if there are no owners to lay claim.


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## Zanazaz (Feb 14, 2012)

pandamonium said:


> I have a feeling that most folks here will be of the same mind as me on this. If and when the SHTF, I will, and probably most of you will also, hunker down untill the worst of the worst is over. I certainly have NO intention of being in harms way, unless harms way comes a callin, but that is another thing. This is why I prep, so I can survive the "troubles". After the troubles, I doubt there will be a whole lot of anything left, stores will be emptied and or burned, same for many homes. Folks in very rural areas will miss out on a lot of that uglyness, but you will have refugees. These refugees will have nothing more than they can carry or drag, as they roam they WILL be scavenging everything they can find to try to see another day. My point is, prolly wont be much left anyway.


You make a good point, but I think it largely depends on what happens. A quick, brutal die off of a large segment of the population of the world would probably leave quite a few resources untouched.

Even after an event such as you describe there still may be items undiscovered/untouched, which would be useful.


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## pandamonium (Feb 6, 2011)

There ya go Mojo, lets call it harvesting and we can all be happy!


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## pandamonium (Feb 6, 2011)

Magus said:


> Because I like to point out how badly you FAIL at life so some poor noob doesn't read your piss poor UNEDUCATED spew and think it's a good idea, and die from it, that's why.:wave:
> 
> Even BillS has your number and we NEVER agree...except that you're a Rambo wannabe.


So.....why ya gotta sugar coat it, tell us all how you really feel!!:kiss:


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## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

My posts aim to please panda! And the "harvested" oranges from the forclosed home across the street from my in-laws were simply amazing!! Free fruit ALWAYS tastes better.


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## pandamonium (Feb 6, 2011)

Zanazaz said:


> You make a good point, but I think it largely depends on what happens. A quick, brutal die off of a large segment of the population of the world would probably leave quite a few resources untouched.
> 
> Even after an event such as you describe there still may be items undiscovered/untouched, which would be useful.


When I think of SHTF, I usually think economic collapse, that usually guides my thought process about these types of discussions. With that said, I doubt it would be a very fast die off, a couple three months of hell and only the refugees and the bad guys and us prepper types will be left. Sure, some small communities will make it through pretty much unscathed but not many.

There will always be items around that some resourceful person will be able to make use of, clothes, tools, and other stuff. But I doubt after say six months that there will be too much of any food stuffs left for the picking. The refugees and the bad guys will make sure of that!! Refugees will grab anything that will sustain them for another day, bad guys will take anything they can use to stay alive and control/hurt/abuse everybody else. I believe our biggest problem post SHTF will BE the bad guys, the refugees, not so much.


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

pandamonium said:


> When I think of SHTF, I usually think economic collapse, that usually guides my thought process about these types of discussions. .... I believe our biggest problem post SHTF will BE the bad guys, the refugees, not so much.


I agree with economic collapse being the most likely scenario.

IMHO, refugees will have to work for their food, and it'll probably be hard manual labor which will decimate those in bad shape or middle aged and older barring special skills (MDs, EMTs, Engineers, Wood/Metal workers.)



teotwaki said:


> In a similar fashion, livestock and pets that are abandoned may perish. If I rescue them and the original owner makes a claim for return, I should expect to be able to barter for reasonable compensation for my efforts.


In the past, reasonable compensation has included all offspring of the animals during the caretaking period. In the cases of longer gestation period animals like horses and cattle, *at least* one calf or foal per female animal would be reasonable even if the caretaking period was less than 6 months. That would include the time to wean the animals if the owners returned before birth or before the offspring were weaned. The time of the year also plays into this since most cattle and horses are fed over the winter months.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

pandamonium said:


> So.....why ya gotta sugar coat it, tell us all how you really feel!!:kiss:


Nah.too many "F" bombs and a 3000x2500 pic of a horse's butt that would take 5 minutes to load even on DSL.might annoy the owners and I actually like them.


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## teotwaki (Aug 31, 2010)

Zanazaz said:


> Awesome. Very well done. I'm going to give it some thought, but I think you nailed it.


Thanks! I saw lots of great thoughts in this thread and tried to place them all in one post. It also helped me to capture my own thoughts into a coherent statement that I thought would be good for all of us. People talk about true colors coming out in a SHTF situation but having some concrete rules to remember can help to guide all of us.

As far as this being "off-topic goes: The OP (kejmack's post below) had bemoaned people who had no other plan than to go out looting. That lead to a debate on the definitions of "scavenging" as opposed to "looting". I was also troubled by the statement that it would be "Shoot first, ask no questions later" for a hungry person stealing fruit. I'd agree that a horse thief could be shot on sight or hung later. :bullit:



kejmack said:


> I have noticed a disturbing increase in the number of "preppers" posting that their plan is to steal things. This is not prepping. Stealing gas or stealing someone's horses or stealing from someone's orchard is NOT prepping.
> 
> I have worked for many years to prepare for my family. If I catch you stealing my horse or from my fruit trees, it will be the last time you ever steal anything.
> 
> The idea that someone would call themselves a prepper when their plan is to go out and steal someone else's preparations is disgusting.


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## Turtle (Dec 10, 2009)

If I could make one slightly philosophical point here:

"Society" will only collapse as much as we allow it to do so. 

By maintaining the universally accepted basics of a polite society, those making the attempt at acting in a civilized manner will ensure it's survival. The movie "Boondock Saints" nicely accomplished outlining those basics during the final moments of the movie: 

"Do not kill, do not rape, do not steal. These are principle which every man of every faith may embrace."

When things get really bad, it will be up to those strong-willed individuals who refuse to lower themselves to the lower echelons of human degradation to remain "civilized." Where goes the civilized man, so too goes civilization.


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## Bobbb (Jan 7, 2012)

Turtle said:


> If I could make one slightly philosophical point here:
> 
> "Society" will only collapse as much as we allow it to do so.
> 
> ...


I think that this is a very powerful point that you're making. This is why I so strongly objected to the thread about looting solar cells from public highways. If we strip civilization bare, then there is nothing to rebuild. The same applies to standards - if all standards of behavior are abandoned, then civilization is down for the count.

Each of us should be better prepared than the general public to handle the turmoil that is likely coming our way and so we should also be mentally preparing to be the protectors of civilization because we'll be in a position to do the protecting.

For instance, if my local water system survives the turmoil, or my local hospital, I'm not going to stand back and allow looters to ransack the water filtration system so that they can find themselves a piece of pipe that they need for their home plumbing and thus take out of commission a valuable community resource. Same with hospital equipment and supplies - if someone needs a replacement LCD panel for his iPhone, stripping an EKG machine of its panel is not going to fly with me. Once that EKG machine is cannibalized it may be centuries before another one is built again.


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## Zanazaz (Feb 14, 2012)

Turtle, Bobbb I agree. I think all of that's covered in teotwaki's document "Prepper's Code of Conduct". Things shouldn't needlessly be destroyed. The assets of "civilization" should be protected. There will be elements that will want to blow up bridges, etc., and destroy what's left of the infrastructure.

Hopefully, all of this discussion is just a mental exercise. Whatever happens, I don't want this country or the world to slid into a 'new Dark Age".


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## pandamonium (Feb 6, 2011)

I would like to nominate TEOTWAWKIs Prepper Code of Conduct to the "sticky" section. Any seconds?


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## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

I like it, but just his post... Let people add to it?


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## pandamonium (Feb 6, 2011)

Certainly, I would think many good additions would be made, let the bosses, nae-kid and Austin be the final judges. I, for the record say it is very good in it's "draft" form. A good start indeed!

Any other taker uppers?


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## Zanazaz (Feb 14, 2012)

I agree. It's a very good start and should be stickied. It sums up in a nutshell most of the concepts I believe in. :2thumb:


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## teotwaki (Aug 31, 2010)

Bobbb said:


> I think that this is a very powerful point that you're making. This is why I so strongly objected to the thread about looting solar cells from public highways. If we strip civilization bare, then there is nothing to rebuild. The same applies to standards - if all standards of behavior are abandoned, then civilization is down for the count.
> 
> Each of us should be better prepared than the general public to handle the turmoil that is likely coming our way and so we should also be mentally preparing to be the protectors of civilization because we'll be in a position to do the protecting.
> 
> For instance, if my local water system survives the turmoil, or my local hospital, I'm not going to stand back and allow looters to ransack the water filtration system so that they can find themselves a piece of pipe that they need for their home plumbing and thus take out of commission a valuable community resource. Same with hospital equipment and supplies - if someone needs a replacement LCD panel for his iPhone, stripping an EKG machine of its panel is not going to fly with me. Once that EKG machine is cannibalized it may be centuries before another one is built again.


I think that we should figure out how to better define this and add it to my draft. I touched upon it but it should be fleshed out more. Scavenging common light bulbs is one thing but destroying an EKG would be wrong. Some sort of common defense of such an asset/building would be needed. In the novel "Lucifer's Hammer" they went to great lengths to protect a nuclear power plant and the electricity that would help to rebuild civilization.


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## teotwaki (Aug 31, 2010)

This was my first attempt at addressing valuable infrastructure:

6. If I have to scavenge from businesses I will attempt to minimize any recovery that might damage the ability of the business to return to productivity should the events of the disaster come to a conclusion.

additional thoughts

_(a) It must be recognized that many manufactured items and modern technologies will be irreplaceable. We must make every effort to leave in place (or store as needed) and vigorously protect them for the greater good. Such items as EKG machines, electronic test instruments, solar systems and so on are some examples._


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## pandamonium (Feb 6, 2011)

Sounds good. One thing, you use the term "greater good" a few times. It is probably just me but it makes me think of socialism, as in, "redistribute the wealth for the greater good". Like i said, maybe it's just me. 

TEO, what do you think about hashing this out in its own thread? Maybe shoot Nae-kid a pm and see if he is receptive to the idea?


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## teotwaki (Aug 31, 2010)

pandamonium said:


> Sounds good. One thing, you use the term "greater good" a few times. It is probably just me but it makes me think of socialism, as in, "redistribute the wealth for the greater good". Like i said, maybe it's just me.
> 
> TEO, what do you think about hashing this out in its own thread? Maybe shoot Nae-kid a pm and see if he is receptive to the idea?


A seperate thread would be great!

Yeah, my apologies for "greater good" but better wording would be most welcome :beercheer:


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## pandamonium (Feb 6, 2011)

No apologies needed. You did an excellent job. So will you start the new thread in gen prep (this) sub-forum?


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## teotwaki (Aug 31, 2010)

*Moving the "Preppers' Code Of Conduct" to a new thread!*



pandamonium said:


> No apologies needed. You did an excellent job. So will you start the new thread in gen prep (this) sub-forum?


Yes. Right here: http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f2/preppers-code-conduct-13368/#post162765


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## pandamonium (Feb 6, 2011)

Later I will go through the code again and see if I can hack it up some!!


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## Zanazaz (Feb 14, 2012)

teotwaki said:


> This was my first attempt at addressing valuable infrastructure:
> 
> 6. If I have to scavenge from businesses I will attempt to minimize any recovery that might damage the ability of the business to return to productivity should the events of the disaster come to a conclusion.
> 
> ...


Here's my suggested rewrite, I only changed a couple of things...

(a) It must be recognized that many manufactured items and modern technologies *may become* irreplaceable. We must make every effort to leave in place (or store as needed) and vigorously protect them for the *benefit of the community and mankind in general*. Such items as EKG machines, electronic test instruments, solar systems and so on are some examples.

I like the term greater good, and I didn't really equate it with socialism.


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## pandamonium (Feb 6, 2011)

teotwaki said:


> Yes. Right here: http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f2/preppers-code-conduct-13368/#post162765


Cool! I will scope it when I get home, it is easier on the pc than on my phone!!:gaah:


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## teotwaki (Aug 31, 2010)

Zanazaz said:


> Here's my suggested rewrite, I only changed a couple of things...
> 
> (a) It must be recognized that many manufactured items and modern technologies *may become* irreplaceable. We must make every effort to leave in place (or store as needed) and vigorously protect them for the *benefit of the community and mankind in general*. Such items as EKG machines, electronic test instruments, solar systems and so on are some examples.
> 
> I like the term greater good, and I didn't really equate it with socialism.


changes added into the first post in the new thread:
http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f2/preppers-code-conduct-13368/#post162765


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