# Scenario Time



## bugoutbob (Nov 11, 2012)

This one may not apply south of the border but up here in the frozen north. The SHTF (pick your personal scenario) and you are on the run. You've been pushed hard for a couple of days and unable to stop to make a fire and rations are growing thin. You are tired, cold and hungry.


Crossing an old dirt road, You come across an abandoned vehicle and to your delight find a couple of tins of beans and some of those individual fruit cups in the car. Problem is they are frozen solid. You can break them up into bite size chunks but have no way to heat them as you have to keep moving.

Do you 
1) Carry them with you and hope that you can make a fire or heat them elsewhere?
2) Eat them anyway and hope that the energy you gain from the food more than makes up for the heat loss to thaw them in your mouth?


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

I tuck them inside my cloths, close to my body and ignore the growling in my stomach a little longer.


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## zombieresponder (Aug 20, 2012)

UncleJoe said:


> I tuck them inside my cloths, close to my body and ignore the growling in my stomach a little longer.


Exactly what I would do.


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## mtexplorer (Dec 14, 2012)

I would also do what UncleJoe said, the warm or hot food is easier to assimilate and would take less energy for the body to use. Also there is a psychological factor of having a warm or hot meal that can't be discounted.


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## FatTire (Mar 20, 2012)

Just me, or does this smell like a trap?


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## Friknnewguy (Jun 30, 2012)

What about the vehicle ? It's abandoned , but is it also inoperable ?


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## biobacon (Aug 20, 2012)

Any thing else in said vehicle? If they had food likely they had something else. Why do I feel like Im playing D&D and Im a theif? Quick roll to check for traps. LOL


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## mtexplorer (Dec 14, 2012)

guess I focused too much on the philosophical part of the question and forgot about the logistical possibilities.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

I'd start the car and let he engine warm it up, I think I could still hot wire one if the keys weren't there, that is is if it had gas.

Otherwise, I'd just grab the food and run, if it had been a few days since you last ate a few more hours shouldn't kill you. I'd much rather have a hot meal than a Popsicle.


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

If they can't move fast enough to catch me in two days they can't be much of a threat think I"ll just wait for em and kill em then build a fire and enjoy the beans and whatever they have  

But Keeping pure to the OP's question I"d due just as Uncle joe says put the food in side my clothing about two layers short of skin and keep moving I"m already wasting energy in lost heat anyway at least this way it is getting used to provide me more energy. If I keep on moving I"ll be generating plenty more heat so the cool inside the clothes will not be an issue. 

But I still don't intend to let aNyone push me that long I"ll be stoppin and killin some whiile I still have energy to fight. I"m apparently alone, I can't go to where any of my "others" are while being hounded nor can I hit my storage stash. Of course I am assuming I have somthing to fight with I usually do.


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## bugoutbob (Nov 11, 2012)

Ok ... the vehicle is inoperable and will not start. The battery is gone and its out of gas. and there is nothing else worth taking. It's not a trap. The temperature is -40 do you still want to stick the tins in your clothes?

JS --- I've known guys who can and would push you for days --- The numbers are large and while you can and likely would kill some, they're still coming and you need to move. (My game so my rules  ) You've set the odd booby trap which has slowed them down but they are determined.


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## bugoutbob (Nov 11, 2012)

The scenario is a bit of a stretch but I have been in situations in the winter where there was frozen food and difficulty making the fire. I've simply dressed it up a bit to see how others might deal with a scenario I have been in. I have always found it useful to get others input into a situation. You don't have to take everyone's advise but you can often find some real gems of wisdom by asking.


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

Yup sticking to the cans in my clothes my thermal mass is bigger than their thermal mass  I'd say more but I gotta get movin


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

You don't want to be putting anything that is -40C in your mouth unless you are fond of frostbite. I would take the food and possibly the trunk liner or floor mat for a moisture barrier when I made my shelter, I will have to sleep eventually and keeping dry is important. If there was a chance that I might have to signal a friend I would also take the rear view mirror.


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

bugoutbob said:


> The temperature is -40 do you still want to stick the tins in your clothes?


Sure do. I don't want anything that cold going in my mouth.


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## cnsper (Sep 20, 2012)

Well let me say that I am not going to change your scenario to suit my needs so here is what I would do..

You stated that rations are getting thin but not that you were out of rations so... In the pack they go and I am off again on the move. You can thaw them later. If you do not have snow shoes I would cut some material from the seats to make a quick and dirty snow shoe. Even carpet and floor mats will work for a while. Maybe enough for you to get far enough ahead of them so that you can take the time for a fire.

If you were out of food then one gets chopped up to eat on the run. One cup of fruit goes under the clothes to thaw and the rest goes in the pack for later. If you have not eaten for 2 days then you are going to need the energy to keep ahead of them. Had to add you warm it with your breath before eating it. Once a little melt starts you are ok. Small pieces by the way not golf ball size.

Lastly... Pray for warmer weather... LOL


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## Friknnewguy (Jun 30, 2012)

Ok , now we know the car is inoperable . Strip whatever you can safely carry , load up and get out of there . Maybe cut some foam out of the seats and take it along .


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## Startingout-Blair (Aug 28, 2012)

You haven't eaten in two days, you're running hard due to being pushed by bad guys and the temp is -40 degrees...honestly, I don't think most people would handle this situation unless they've had a lot of military cold weather experience. That kind of cold weather saps energy quickly. If you are trudging through snow, energy goes even quicker. At this point, I would make several large fires, several booby traps, and a small concealed fire for myself and take my chances on getting as many as possible before giving up the ghost myself. That would be my reality...well really, I couldn't do any of this. Being partially paralyzed, I barely make it ten feet in a little snow before I fall...lol


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## Startingout-Blair (Aug 28, 2012)

You could also lace the food with a strong laxative from your first aid kit and leave it for them to find. Can't chase you too far if they are $hitting themselves and they risk major frostbite in that weather by dropping their drawers! Lmao!


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## invision (Aug 14, 2012)

zombieresponder said:


> Exactly what I would do.


Ditto... If it cold your wearing layers of clothing, so ice cold cans would be direct skin contact.


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## bugoutbob (Nov 11, 2012)

*-40*

[QUOTEYou haven't eaten in two days, you're running hard due to being pushed by bad guys and the temp is -40 degrees...honestly, I don't think most people would handle this situation unless they've had a lot of military cold weather experience.]

You'd be amazed at the number of people who are quite accustomed to that level of cold. Up here in Northern Alberta we snowmobile, ski, run sled dogs and more at those temperatures. The coldest I have seen was -56 without the wind chill (and it was windy) ... now that was cold, and I've read of places that get a lot colder. Not I said accustomed to ... I didn't say like. No one I know enjoys -40, it is just a fact of winter life in some areas. We can at times get weeks in a row like that.

Lots of layers and don't let yourself sweat too much.

One thing I like about the cold is you can always add a layer ... in the heat there are only so many layers you can take off and its still hot


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

Most a it goin in the pack. A couple a them fruit cups goin in a upper pocket (nearer the pits the better) ta warm up some. This ain't gonna rob no body heat. Simply heat that get lost anywho.

Time permits I'm slashin the back seat fer a nice hunk a foam. Can be made inta insulation fer the hands, feet er ta sleep on. Gonna need it in that cold. I pull some wire out to ifin I can. Make snares an such. Also, ifin it got hubcaps, I might stuff one them in the pack fer a snow shovel. Snow caves er a life saver in that sorta weather. Ifin my firestartin materials er short, I'll grab a headlamp ifin I can.

Then time ta get movin. In winter ya be leavin easy tracks wherever ya go. Only break there be ifin the snow soft an the wind blowin. It'll cover em over fer ya. 

After a bit that fruit be warm enough ta eat, it'll give ya a short boost (sugar) which ain't the best but better then nothin. Best have some water ta go with that food though, don't wanna be eatin to much ifin ya ain't got water ta drink. Sooner er later yer gonna have ta have a fire ta get some clean drinkin water an some warm food in yer belly. Yer only gonna run so long, there be one a you an several a them. Unless yer real lucky, the time will come fer a fight.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

The fruit cups would be devoured shortly, have been in similar situations without the whole running for your life aspect 
If you are putting the stuff under your jacket then it will suck heat from you anyways and will take as close to forever to thaw as you can imagine. Might as well get the calories and the psychological benefits while you are on the move. 
The frozen cans would have to wait till I had time, been there, done that, not going to be worth the aggravation.
"Military cold weather experience", let's just say I have seen too many strapping young lads in camo shivering in their boots while up here training.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

bugoutbob said:


> ... you are on the run. You've been pushed hard for a couple of days and unable to stop to make a fire and rations are growing thin. You are tired, cold and hungry...find a couple of tins of beans and some of those individual fruit cups in the car. Problem is they are frozen solid. ...
> 
> Do you
> 1) Carry them with you and hope that you can make a fire or heat them elsewhere?
> 2) Eat them anyway and hope that the energy you gain from the food more than makes up for the heat loss to thaw them in your mouth?


Eating ice/snow to quench your thirst burns more calories then drinking liquid water. Same principle with eating frozen food.

So I'd go with your option #1


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Your body will burn calories to warm up/melt what you eat or drink unless you have a surplus of heat already, like from strenuous exercise, then it will actually save you calories.
I could not count the times when I have sweated on -40 days and gotten by clothes wet  
Even if you drink room temperature water your body will burn calories to maintain your core temperature if you are idle.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

Cars are on roads. Roads are good spot for an ambush. If they are chasin me they are probably hungry too. Fruit cups close to skin, open car door, scatter cans by door, set some traps, set up in good spot, wait. Traps would be set in closest cover and concealment so when I start shooting and they hit cover I take out more. Ammo dependent of course.


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## chick (Mar 25, 2012)

OK -40 and you notice a dirt road? Somehow I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around that because usually we have snow before it hits -40, so how do you know it's dirt? Do you have a destination in mind that's within reason or are you just running scared?
Sorry but it's too far fetched a scenario to even think why a pack would stay after one lone man in that type of weather. Common sense would be there's no reason to risk freezing extremities or lungs in that weather for one person and to look after themselves first and make sure they're nice and cozy.

Anyway, if I was close to my destination I would pop some small pieces of fruit just to bring up energy and save the rest until I can stop and warm the food.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

East central Alberta and you haven't seen dirt in -40  
Not much of it around this year though


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## bugoutbob (Nov 11, 2012)

Have to disagree with your "common sense" there chick. Is it ideal? Of course not! Does it happen? More than you might expect. 

The scenario is not as far fetched as you might think. Except for the pursuers all the elements are drawn from my own life personal experience in Alberta.

Seen plenty of dirt roads at -40 (although often because they have been graded at one point or another). The scenario is not far fetched. I know plenty of guys who travel solo in that kind of temperature ... myself included at times. 

I've seen above freezing for several days melting everything and then a deep drop down into the freezer to the -40 range without any precipitation. In Alberta I've seen snow every month of the year (although it doesn't always stay during the warmer months) and huge temperature swings. I've seen weeks in a row of -40 and other winters where it might not even hit that level.


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## chick (Mar 25, 2012)

.

Have to disagree with your "common sense" there chick. Is it ideal? Of course not! _Does it happen? More than you might expect. 
_

What happens more then I expect? Explain!
I know a womans imagination isn't as wild as a mans but ever hear of logic? 
I still can't see a gang wanting to chase one person in -40, whether you agree or not.

I've seen as much as a 90 degree swing within 24 hours from -40F up to 50F above when the chinook blows through but still don't see dirt when its's -40 Around here they don't grade down that far and they sure don't grade dirt roads that cars travel down. 
Sorry to spoil your war games guys.....carry on


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

If I'm starving, why are they chasing me?, I have nothing for them, who ever they are. I'm not much of a runner, so I probably would have called their bluff the first chance I got to where things were in my favor


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## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

I have done plenty of driving in -40 through Alaska and Canada. I usually could tell whether it was paved or not. If all the chuckholes and dips from the frost heave disappeared you were on dirt. 

The idea with a scenario is to play a game and not nit pick. In that spirit..... Because of my physical limitations I would hole up as soon as possible. I might well circle back and set up an ambush.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

It wasn't the point of the scenario anyways but have seen logging/oilfield/farm roads with the snow blown off all the time in -40, maybe you don't travel on many dirt roads.
Heck where are people's imaginations? You don't need to know why you are being pursued anyways but I can come up with reasons very easily, "you have information that they want about ..."


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## bugoutbob (Nov 11, 2012)

If you want a reason ... let's pretend that they have a warrant for your arrest. You are considered a dangerous terrorist because you have spoken ill of the powers that be, have discussed prepping on the internet and it is possible that you might own a gun.


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## PopPop (Sep 14, 2010)

I am to old to run, I'll try and buy you some time to thaw that frozen food, maybe they will be fewer.


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## bugoutbob (Nov 11, 2012)

What happens more then I expect? Explain!
I know a womans imagination isn't as wild as a mans but ever hear of logic?
I still can't see a gang wanting to chase one person in -40, whether you agree or not.

I've seen as much as a 90 degree swing within 24 hours from -40F up to 50F above when the chinook blows through but still don't see dirt when its's -40 Around here they don't grade down that far and they sure don't grade dirt roads that cars travel down.
Sorry to spoil your war games guys.....carry on

My dear, I have done plenty of military exercises in exactly those conditions. I won't discount your experience, after all it is your experience, but mine differs.

What happens more than you might expect? People outside, either solo or in groups in -40. I've raced sled dogs in those temperatures, snowmobiled in them, trapped in them and more. The key is to dress appropriately.

You haven't spoiled anything, just shown that your experience differs from someone else's. What you can't imagine some of us have done. 

There have been historical accounts of manhunts in Canada in those kind of temperatures.


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## chick (Mar 25, 2012)

Military excercises in -40 where you are going for an undetermined length of time without heat or shelter? 
And puh-lease hon, don't try that condesending "little woman" BS on me because you DON'T know me or what I've been through.

I know how to use boughs for bedding, snow for insulation, any type of back wall for heat radiation etc.
I know what it's like to have some flesh frozen hard as rock, the pain of it thawing and the bruising I prayed would not turn gangreous. 
I know what seeing a trail of discarded clothing usually ends up with. 

Most importantly I know about cold stress and that the signs of hypothermia (like shivering) do not always happen and that a person can be in danger without knowing it. 

In my circle of friends and aquaintances there are woman trappers, sled dog racers, women that icefish and hunt and snowmobile aficiandos, so don't think you corner the market in that! Oh yeah, also (women)RCMP that have been stationed up in the territories and within the arctic circle, and a son who's spent winters working outside up there close to the arctic.

I know there's been manhunts in Canada in the winter....the mad trapper comes to mind. He didn't get away now did he?
But carry on with your fantasies and war games there Rambo....keep thinking that there's no one else out there that's as smart as you are....


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## TheHangman (Feb 4, 2013)

OMG.......the only time i have been in -40 was when I was a young bloke and had a second job working in an icecream freezer. We were only allowed in for 15min at a time.
I hate the cold.

Cheers.....The Hangman


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Chick WTH, *you are the one being condescending* with every one of your comments on this particular thread. If you don't have the imagination for a scenario or understand their purpose why participate? 
If you can't imagine knowing you are on a dirt road in -40 I don't even know where to begin. Then you assert that no one would be pursued in -40 are you kidding me, anyone who wronged me would have to run like hell, I am outside anyways -40 or not walking just warms me up.


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## bugoutbob (Nov 11, 2012)

Chick ... my comment was not intended to be condescending in any way, so if it came across that way I offer my forgiveness. You are absolutely correct in that I know nothing about you, which is why I was very specific about my comments about not wanting to discount your experiences. Your experiences are your experiences and mine are different.

I made no effort to "corner the market" on any of my experiences, simply excluded them as you suggested that you could see no reason to be out in such conditions, I simply offered some valid reasons (which apparently you already something about since you know people who do such things). I have made no distinctions about t gender of the people who do such things, I know men and women both who do them. It is apparently you who has decided that I think only men can do them.

It would seem the gender prejudice would be in your court not mine. Unless you've checked my profile, you have only assumed I am a man.

Now returning to the point of the scenario, the situation had to do with having to eat frozen food on the run far more than being Rambo. If you don't have anything constructive to add, I understand and appreciate that. There are many threads where I do not feel I can offer something of relevance, in those cases rather than opting for destructive comments I simply stay out of the discussion.


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## bugoutbob (Nov 11, 2012)

WOW ... did I make a typo ... I said "Chick ... my comment was not intended to be condescending in any way, so if it came across that way I offer my forgiveness. "

What I meant to say was "I ask for your forgiveness". Sorry about that!


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## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

Seen allota bare dirt roads a -40. Ain't my favorite place ta be, but ifin yer stuck there ya best know how ta survive it! 

Some people just wanna come here an be top dog straight out the gate. Well, it don't work that way. Ain't sure we gotta top dog anywho. Everbody got good stuff ta contribute an works real well when we operate that way. Some folk just come here ta strut there stuff. They can go way an won't bother nobody. Some people thin there just a tad better then the rest, they can go way to.

When we fail ta have respect fer other members, the whole process breaks down an leads ta harsh words an corrupted posts. That be when a post gets closed. That's when the learnin stops cause some folk won't work with others.

Chick, rather then bein a butt head, why don't ya share yer experience in a nice way with all the folks so they can learn? Otherwise, instead a startin trouble, just butt out!

I step offin my box.
Rev Coot


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

I think that is good advice for all of us, me included. Thanks you old coot


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## chick (Mar 25, 2012)

Bugoutbob no offence taken, or meant to have been given either. In my first post I played along with your scenario and ended it saying I would eat some of the fruit frozen. Is that not what you were asking? 
It wasn't me who made it ugly, rather it was the remarks that were aimed at me and my opinions.

Cowboy If I somehow wronged you I would not run from you. I would stand my ground like I am now. But that's me - stuborn even though I might be shaking in my boots. Never underestimate the mind or the tenacity of a woman. But I'm sure if you're married you understand fully what I mean ...lol
I'm out in all types of weather too, whether I want to be or not.

Old coot 
I'm not trying to be top dog....maybe I'm just an alpha female . 
It never was my intention to do anything other then give MY OPINION only. 

It seems like some of you feel your masculinity is threatened by an old grandmothers' point of view. 
Just to give you all fair warning I will continue to be questioning or opposing your male opinions if I don't understand them or agree with them. 
Of course, any woman that would come onto a survival site is not a timid girly girl type. 
Vive la difference!


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Thanks for making nice chick, I think 
To suggest that someone's masculinity was threatened is pretty insulting though, and I don't have any idea what you are referring to. 
The only person to make this about gender was you, heck I don't even know the gender of half the people on here, it makes no difference to me. Some of the main contributors to this site are female I believe, I know one of the moderators is. I think it is great to speak out against opinions you don't agree with and I don't agree with sexist remarks like "male opinions"


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