# AC Electricity generator - in case of long-term power outage ?



## Bansaw (Nov 5, 2013)

Let's say there was a natural disaster and the power grid went out.
It could be weeks and weeks before my area gets repaired.

I can survive OK without electricity, but water is a different thing. We have a well powered by electricity in the yard and I'd like to run this when the power is out.

What kind of robust AC generator can I get that will serve this purpose. I'm not needing to power the whole house, just probably the water. I mean, the fridge would be nice too but I'm willing to call that a luxury.

Or, is it possible to get a manual hand-pump attached to my well somehow?

Any comments?


----------



## millertimedoneright (May 13, 2013)

They have solar well pumps


----------



## readytogo (Apr 6, 2013)

Bansaw said:


> Let's say there was a natural disaster and the power grid went out.
> It could be weeks and weeks before my area gets repaired.
> 
> I can survive OK without electricity, but water is a different thing. We have a well powered by electricity in the yard and I'd like to run this when the power is out.
> ...


http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...lls&qpvt=manual+hand-pump+for+wells&FORM=IGRE

http://handpumpsforwells.com/


----------



## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

There are solar pumps as has already been stated.  Hand pump options will depend upon the depth of the well. 

Find the volts and watt rating (be sure you know the start-up watt rating too) of your well pump then be sure that any generator you purchase can handle it. 

You shouldn't need to run it 24/7. Just run it when you need water. Be sure you have enough fuel stocked up at all times. It's better to get a generator that's a little too large rather than one that's a little too small. However, super large generators will use more fuel so choose wisely.


----------



## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

One trick with pumps is to try and start them with as little load as possible. I helped a friend set his up with a control valve on the pump outlet that doesn't open until the pump has been running for a couple of seconds. It limits the amount of current the motor pulls while starting and gives the motor time to come up to speed before placing a load on it.

Doing that was a lot cheaper than replacing the motor, wiring and breaker.


----------



## Geek999 (Jul 9, 2013)

I have a natural gas generator that ran through the 8 days we lost power during Hurricane Sandy. It isn't a SHTF thing but works great for periods such as you are worried about. If you don't have natural gas, then the choice would be propane.


----------



## OldCootHillbilly (Jul 9, 2010)

Ya can prolly find one outa a RV perty resonable in a junk yard. Might need a tune up. It'll do yer well pump, fridge an a few other thins perty easy.


----------



## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

this pump is meant to go down the well beside a submersible's pipe
http://www.simplepump.com/


----------



## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

The two big questions are How Deep is your well and What Voltage does your use? First, I don't mean to insult your intelligence, just take what you need from the following.

Depth is important because hand pumps usually don't work for the deeper wells. Depth is also important when considering the mentioned solar/battery-powered pumps. A purpose-built "solar" pump is the most efficient way to use your stored solar power--but it is also expensive and the volume of water drops dramatically with serious depth. Last time I looked there were only two or so "solar" pumps that would reliably pump deep wells, and that was at a low flow rate.

What Voltage is important in the generator selection. All the electric well pumps I've lived around are 230V minimum. They require a sizeable generator. The larger traditional generators are generally loud; I'm not sure if this is a problem for you (neighbor's or theives' attention). The more expensive inverter generators are quieter. But there are ways to help quiet the generators as well.

You do get what you pay for in generators. It's not just the engine, it's the wiring and controls quality. Also, I like the idea of a welder/generator set. Dual function if you can make use of it. The Miller Bobcat series are nice, but they're also ~500lbs and up; price is comparable to a similarly sized generator-only set.

Alternate fuel capability such as propane/gasoline/natural gals is great. But make sure they're suitable for your climate and availability--propane isn't the best choice for very cold climates. On-demand natural gas service could be interrupted in some disasters.


----------



## Tweto (Nov 26, 2011)

Fn/Form said:


> The two big questions are How Deep is your well and What Voltage does your use? First, I don't mean to insult your intelligence, just take what you need from the following.
> 
> Depth is important because hand pumps usually don't work for the deeper wells. Depth is also important when considering the mentioned solar/battery-powered pumps. A purpose-built "solar" pump is the most efficient way to use your stored solar power--but it is also expensive and the volume of water drops dramatically with serious depth. Last time I looked there were only two or so "solar" pumps that would reliably pump deep wells, and that was at a low flow rate.
> 
> ...


I have a Miller Bobcat welder/generator, purchased new in 94. It has been an excellent emergency generator. It uses a automotive size battery, 10 gallon fuel tank and has an industrial engine. One of the lesser known advantages is the idle back feature that allows the engine to go to idle when there is no current draw.

And remember you can weld with it.

The most important part is that it is very difficult to steal. I have to use my 1 ton engine lift to move it.


----------



## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

As others have said, we need to know what size well pump you have now. The LRA (locked rotor amperage) of a submersible pump on start-up is SIGNIFICANT - and most "portable" generators just don't have the balls to get one turning.

Of the things most homeowners want to operate with a back-up generator, getting the well pump operable is the hardest of all. 

Most smaller (5.5Kw-8kw) units are NOT up to the task, even though they have a 230 volt plug on them. The inrush current is just too great.


----------



## helicopter5472 (Feb 25, 2013)

My well takes 220V I have a 6500 watt Diesel genset It powers the well, as the rest of the house, I have two refrigerators, and one freezer. I turned everything on with the generator running doesn't seem to bog it down. Instead of running the generator full time, run it every hour or so to keep the refrigerator cool and the well pump water up. I did put in a 40 gallon pressure tank on the well. It doesn't run the well pump so much and gives plenty of toilet flushings before demanding the pump to re-start.


----------



## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

helicopter5472 said:


> My well takes 220V I have a 6500 watt Diesel genset It powers the well.


The only problem is, what works for you may not work for everyone else. For all we know your well is 25 feet deep and runs a 3/4 HP pump on it. That's no problem for a 6500 watt generator. Some people running 2-3 HP pumps down 800 feet may not have the same luck.


----------



## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

The one thing I tell people is if they are able to do so and have the space for one get a water storage tank, the closer one can get to 1,500 gallons all the better, even more if possible. If you can install it on a platform above your highest upper floor sink at least you'll have some gravity flow. I also tell people to have the tank filled by city pressure, well pump or spring and then have a secondary pump/pressure tank to supply their homes. The neighbor on my East side has a system like this but the only problem is it's below kitchen sink level and would still have to have a generator for power failures, but he's going to set up a 2,500 tank up hill that will be about as high as the peak of his roof that will be spring feed. If he wants more pressure at the house he can always install a water ram. As to my neighbor on the West side and our water systems, we have developed gravity feed systems, ours is only 1,100 gallons but gets constant spring flow year around. I want to add at least another 1,000 gallon storage tank, just in case of heavier needs, anyway this system gives us 25psi in our home.


----------



## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

Viking said:


> The one thing I tell people is if they are able to do so and have the space for one get a water storage tank, the closer one can get to 1,500 gallons all the better, even more if possible.


A well pump that must start against existing water pressure requires more amps than one starting against no pressure at all.

A tank is a great idea, I would size it so it takes about 1 hour of generator time to fill. That way you could also run the fridge and freezer for an hour while the tank is filling up!

If the tank is in the basement, Shur-flo makes small 12 volt pumps for Campers/RV trailers that can be run off of a battery and solar panels. The flow rate is not great (unless you have two paralleled) but a person would at least have running water again.


----------



## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

LincTex said:


> A well pump that must start against existing water pressure requires more amps than one starting against no pressure at all.


A centrifugal pumps current increases as flow increases (it's doing more "work"). A dead headed pump's current is only what it takes to turn the motor. With a high back pressure the pump will move less water and draw less current.

Think of it like a hair drier. If you put your hand in front of it to prevent any air from moving the back pressure goes up and you hear the sound of the motor increase in pitch because it's turning faster. If this were causing more load on the motor it would slow down and the pitch would decrease.

That doesn't mean that dead heading a pump for an extended time isn't harmful. It's just that the damage isn't due to high current, it's due to it no longer having water flow which is what removes the heat generated in the pump and motor.


----------



## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

labotomi said:


> A centrifugal pumps current increases as flow increases (it's doing more "work"). A dead headed pump's current is only what it takes to turn the motor. With a high back pressure the pump will move less water and draw less current.


Yes, I believe you are correct. Then the only limiting factor becomes inrush current at start-up.


----------



## helicopter5472 (Feb 25, 2013)

Viking said:


> The one thing I tell people is if they are able to do so and have the space for one get a water storage tank, the closer one can get to 1,500 gallons all the better, even more if possible. If you can install it on a platform above your highest upper floor sink at least you'll have some gravity flow. I also tell people to have the tank filled by city pressure, well pump or spring and then have a secondary pump/pressure tank to supply their homes. The neighbor on my East side has a system like this but the only problem is it's below kitchen sink level and would still have to have a generator for power failures, but he's going to set up a 2,500 tank up hill that will be about as high as the peak of his roof that will be spring feed. If he wants more pressure at the house he can always install a water ram. As to my neighbor on the West side and our water systems, we have developed gravity feed systems, ours is only 1,100 gallons but gets constant spring flow year around. I want to add at least another 1,000 gallon storage tank, just in case of heavier needs, anyway this system gives us 25psi in our home.


I hope you have one stout floor above your sink 1500 gals X 7 lbs > 10500 lbs plus weight of tank


----------



## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

helicopter5472 said:


> I hope you have one stout floor above your sink 1500 gals X 7 lbs > 10500 lbs plus weight of tank


I probably should have been clearer as to where the tank on a platform would be located, sorry my assumption was that people would know the platform would be outside of the home.


----------



## Caribou (Aug 18, 2012)

One thing to consider is that, as mentioned before, the major usage of power for a pump is on startup. This is important for two reasons. 1-Starting, although it pumps little water uses a lot of electricity. B-The starting surge of power generates heat and therefore causes more wear on the motor. 

To save on our total energy usage(read electricity bill) and prolong the life of your pump we want to reduce the number of on/off cycles. The easiest way to do this is to get a larger and/or additional pre-charged water tank. An eighty gallon tank will distribute about thirty gallon before the pump cycles on again. This means that if you have a twelve gallon tank the pump will cycle every time you flush the toilet.


----------



## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

labotomi said:


> A centrifugal pumps current increases as flow increases (it's doing more "work"). A dead headed pump's current is only what it takes to turn the motor. With a high back pressure the pump will move less water and draw less current.


Not in disagreement but just for clarity, the efficiency is still higher when there is less pressure ie; it still takes less energy to move a given amount of water without a pressure system.

With regards to the question, it really depends so much on what you have for a pump. We have one well with no grid power, used for livestock on pasture. It has a 110V pump at less than 100ft and no pressure system, with no controller, pump wires stuck in a standard plug. We power it with a 3000 watt coleman genset and have done so for years, most people will not be so lucky on power requirements with their existing pump (we bought the smallest standard one we could get at the time, something like 20 years ago).

As an aside, that coleman generator has lasted far longer than it should. We would fire it up, plug it in and leave it with a full tank of gas, to run out with the pump plugged in:eyebulge: repeat at a minimum of 50 times how many hours must be on that sucker:scratch and I use it for other stuff.


----------



## labotomi (Feb 14, 2010)

cowboyhermit said:


> Not in disagreement but just for clarity, the efficiency is still higher when there is less pressure ie; it still takes less energy to move a given amount of water without a pressure system.


True. Electrical motors are most efficient when operating at the rated speed. I was addressing the concern of starting a pump when there is a higher back pressure. Some think (and I did for a long time) that shutting the outlet valve of a pump would cause it to work harder when it's the opposite that happens.


----------

