# Small backup generator - solar?



## TexasMama (Dec 3, 2012)

Ok - I am new enough to this to know I'm probably not going to phrase my question right....and that I may come across as stupid...or perhaps have my priorities in the wrong order.

We know that at some point in time we would like to get some some sort of a backup generator thing - solar preferably since we're in sunny Texas...and we'd love to take care of our whole house.

Those things are gonna be pricey and we don't have that right now.

But I don't want to totally give up my electrical stuff if the grid were to go down (but we didn't have an EMP).

In other words - I'd like some sort of a unit that I could store up energy in and then plug in a few things - one at a time -and run for a bit,

For instance - my breadmaker - or my coffee machine...or gasp - MY COMPUTER!

I know - I'm going to get a coffee percolator (we already have two backup ways to cook without electricity) and I could live without my breadmaker if I had to - but I'm spoiled - my husband bakes bread in it (all the time trying new things so its never the same) like 4-5 times per week. He'd miss it - as we all would. (He's even put creamed corn in the bread before...talk about interesting!) :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Anyway - back on topic - can y'all suggest anything that could be used for something like this...?

Thanks in advance!

Peg


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## Friknnewguy (Jun 30, 2012)

How bout a propane generator . Cheaper than solar . Propane has a ridiculous shelf life and is easy to store .


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## Saffer (Aug 3, 2012)

A relatively small solar setup with a battery and say 300 W inverter should be fine for essential lights (energy savers), TV and computer (LCD or LED screens). Things with heating elements are bad news though. For that you would need some gasoline or propane generating set.


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## Immolatus (Feb 20, 2011)

Linc's thread on DIY solar generators.

This what youre looking for?


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

Cool thing about solar is you can start small and add to it if you are careful when selecting starting components and leave room for the eventual expansion. At first you will almost surely not have the juice to run the bread maker and coffee pot but would have enough for some low wattage lighting with 12v flourescent or led. and be able to charge up computers smart phones walkie talkies batteries for lights radies etc. Get it a little bigger and you could do all that and maybe run a fan for a few hours at night or maybe power a high efficiency refridgerator or freezer. And you just keep adding until you have it big enough for whatever you want. 

BUT everyone that talks about solar set ups talks about hte most important part is weening yourself off some of the high drain stuff (yeah like the bread machine) and curbing your usage. And some things can be handled better by timing like doing laundry at high noon when your likely generating surplus power that you would otherwise not be able to utilize with your storage system. Lots of discussion on it here and all over the web. Be prepared to have your head spinning as you try to assimilate it all and process it down to somthing the layman can use.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

jsriley5 said:


> ...BUT everyone that talks about solar set ups talks about hte most important part is weening yourself off some of the high drain stuff (yeah like the bread machine) and curbing your usage. And some things can be handled better by timing like doing laundry at high noon when your likely generating surplus power that you would otherwise not be able to utilize with your storage system. Lots of discussion on it here and all over the web. Be prepared to have your head spinning as you try to assimilate it all and process it down to somthing the layman can use.


We live off grid but we don't recommend solar for emergency generating. First for the reason quoted above. Getting enough to power what most people consider the bare essentials will be prohibitively expensive. Second, the most likely times you'll be without power are during storms. Not much sunshine available them! (And it takes a lot of sunshine to generate electricity with solar panels.)

My recommendation is a fuel powered generator. Propane is normally the best but also the most expensive. Gasoline and diesel fuels will work okay and cost less. Just be sure to have fuel stocked up in advance.

Be careful about emergency solar power "generators." Most of them advertise the watt rating of the inverter ... NOT the charging watts of the solar panels. I can take my car battery, charge it with a 65 watt panel and add a 5,000 watt inverter, advertise it as "5,000 watt solar emergency generator," and run the big screen television for about an hour before I run out of electricity. It will then take the 65 watt solar panel about three days to recharge the battery so I can run the TV for another hour.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

I disagree about solar not being appropriate as a backup power system, however it does depend on what you plan to use it for.
I had no attachment to electrical appliances like you mentioned so it was much more suitable for our purposes.
Coffee pot and breadmaker take at least 1000watts each so even if they run for just an hour or two that is a considerable amount of power.
Laptops, lcd monitors, communications equipment will all run on solar very easily.
I think it works out very well because the things that actually need electricity to function work well, whereas things that can be more efficiently done with other energy sources (wood, propane heat, solar heat, etc.) take more work.
For what you are interested in I would recommend finding a good deal on a Large inverter, for instance I got a 3000watt for a really good price and it has worked very well. This can be hooked up to a battery bank even without solar panels (over 1500watts 2 batteries is pretty much minimum). You can charge this bank with a trickle charger when the grid is up, with a vehicle in an emergency, or also if you have a generator running. Then you can work on getting some solar panels to keep in charged long term, and additional battery capacity.
This way you are really not out anything, a large inverter and a couple batteries will be useful even without the solar, emergency or not.


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## Grimm (Sep 5, 2012)

To be 100% honest the solar generators are expensive to start with. We have a gas generator. My husband is just getting on board with prepping so these larger preps had to be cleared with him first. 

We do have solar panels to run smaller items such as our cats' fountain. They refuse to drink still water so a solar powered pond fountain pump was worth the $ so we don't lose our spoiled barn cats. The dog will drink scummy water from puddles so no worries about our hunting dog.


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

The thread that Immolatus listed has alot of info on solar.
There is pluses and minuses to both solar or fuel-run generator. Solar is silent but fuel-run can be heavily muffled. Fuel has to be stored and in most cases rotated fairly often. With solar the sun must shine, depending on how big a battery bank you have and usage you can get by 1 or 2 or more days. Fuel-run generators sometimes lose their ability to generate power if not run occasionally. Batteries have a life span that varies. Fuel-run are easy to buy and set-up and take up little room.


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## Marcus (May 13, 2012)

cowboyhermit said:


> For what you are interested in I would recommend finding a good deal on a Large inverter, for instance I got a 3000watt for a really good price and it has worked very well. This can be hooked up to a battery bank even without solar panels (over 1500watts 2 batteries is pretty much minimum). You can charge this bank with a trickle charger when the grid is up, with a vehicle in an emergency, or also if you have a generator running. Then you can work on getting some solar panels to keep in charged long term, and additional battery capacity.
> This way you are really not out anything, a large inverter and a couple batteries will be useful even without the solar, emergency or not.


That's actually a really good idea on how to work your way into an alternate power source without spending lots of money up front. I'd think you'd want to complete the battery bank (and inverters) before going on to solar/wind generators.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

Well I guess I need to put my two cents worth of experience on the plus side of having solar backup. We installed the system on our 33 foot motorhome as we have made trips out on the Northern Nevada desert and wanted something other than the propane guzzling 6.5 KW on board generator. This system works great, four 100 watt with 44 mono-crystaline cells on each panel. Sadly AM Solar no longer sells these panels, their new panels are 36 cell and have a smaller foot print for use on smaller motorhomes which are now more in demand. The thing about having 44 cells is that they produce 20 plus volts against 36 cell panels that produce 17 volts plus in full sun. Now where those 8 more celled panels make such a difference is on hazy, cloudy or short sun days as in the winter, spring and fall times of the year. The 44 cell panel will still produce enough voltage during those times to re-charge batteries, but you have to have a very good solar charge controller, MPPT Maximum Power Point Tracking or PWM Pulse Width Modulation. These types of charge controllers can take a higher solar panel volts and bring it down to battery charge voltages that range from Bulk at around 14.4-14.8, Absorption which can be in the same voltage range as bulk but the charge amperes are much lower and finally Float which is just a constant voltage generally in the high 12 volt to below 14 volts. The solar charge controller I have is a MPPT 30 amp with a 5 amp engine battery float charge. AM Solar no longer sells this controller, they now sell Morningstar and Blue Sky controllers. The inverter we got is from Don Rowe.com in Monroe, OR, it's an Xantrex RS 2000 pure sine wave inverter/charger, it can run continuous at the full 2000 watt output with a 4000 watt 5 second surge which is good for motor starts such as in freezers and refrigerators. The battery power to supply the inverter comes from four 6 volt 225 amphour Golf cart batteries that are series/ parallel connected for 12 volts and a total of 450 amphours. With this system on a daily basis we could make two pots of coffee out of a 1000 watt coffee maker, watch TV with DVD for four hours and run a few 12 volt lights at night. The motorhome has three 12 volt powered fluorescent lamps but we found they actually drew more current than the incandescent lamps did for the light we needed. The last time we were out on the desert was six weeks in May and June of 2007, only one time did I have to start the motorhome engine (still cheaper to run for all batteries to be charged than the generator.) This would be what I would consider a minimum system for a cabin or home for a power back up if you lost grid power, it could run lights or small TV but it wouldn't take care of a refrigerator that ran frequently. If one wants to be totally off grid they may want to get full sized propane refrigerator and freezer, some of the larger motorhome types could be used as they are quite efficient. I've researched and weighed many different alternate power systems and I keep coming up with solar as other systems, other than a water source for power generation would have to have diesel, gasoline, propane or natural gas and under extreme times most of those fuels may become unavailable. We don't get enough wind here, nor to we have a flowing water source for alternative power generation. The biggest negative with solar is cost with panels and batteries being the most expensive but after the panels, charge controller, inverter and wiring is all set up then only the batteries will need to be replaced and if they are not abused and well taken care of they can last many years.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

At the time I built the solar system on the motorhome I had researched many different suppliers and ended up with AM Solar for solar panels an charge controller, they are located in Springfield, Oregon and Don Rowe in Monroe, Oregon for the inverter/charger. These two places had the best prices that I was able to find and AM Solar over the years continued to lower the prices of their solar panels. Though AM Solar no longer has 44 cell panels I will probably go for their 100 or 150 watt 36 cell panels and build a 24 volt battery charge system because Don Rowe now has Magnum Energy pure sine wave inverter/chargers that have a 4000 watt continuous output with 120/240 VAC output, these inverters can be stacked up to four for a total of 17.6 KW. We could probably get by with a single 4000 watt unit as with enough batteries and solar panels to charge them, 4000 watts could take care of two refrigerators and a little lighting, especially if the 120 volt lamps are LED's which we are slowly changing over to from CFL's and incandescent lamps. I figure that even without a solar charge system, just with batteries the inverter/charger could work as a short term power supply if grid power goes down for a day. Eventually I would love to divorce ourselves from the grid because of dam removal and if Obama gets his way coal power could be gone as well and my guess is that electricity prices will escalate to where we can't afford grid power, that is yet an unknown but it's something to think about.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Like Marcus said, it is best to build up a battery bank first because having all the batteries the same is optimum, a mix of solar panels is not an issue. I have had a lot of experience with battery banks though and have seen mismatched batteries perform very well, I always try to keep the type the same at least. If they are too far apart in size or voltage I would normally separate them into different banks.
Realistically I do think having a battery/inverter setup is much better than simply using a generator, even if you are only charging with a generator for the time being. You can run all your high draw loads when the generator is running and also charging the batteries, then all of your lighting, communications, etc can be run silently off your battery bank.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

I've been thinking of getting a hold of a large high amperage 24 volt alternator and an old slower rpm Wisconsin engine to run it for charging batteries and the inverter at the same time if I go to the 4,000watt system I mentioned. Most types of new generators are running at 3,600 rpm and their sound levels can really be annoying. The generator on the motorhome has a Kohler two cylinder engine that turns around 1,800 rpm but like I have mentioned, it's really a propane hog. The thing I mentioned about using pure sine wave inverters is that they put out a sine wave current like grid does and they are very electronic and motor friendly. Run of the mill inverters, even ones with modified sine wave are square wave and sometimes electronic controls on appliances may not work and motors can run hotter. I have a 8,500 watt generator that just last week ran for the first time, we had been without power due to a tree falling over the power lines because of the heavy snow we got. We had been about 32 hours without power and our refrigerators were starting to get warm when I fired it up and ran it for four hours to bring their temps back down. Even with a moderate load the generator was using nearly a gallon an hour and the noise is not that fun to listen to. Thankfully the power came back on about the time everything had cooled down but it was a valuable lesson as to what we needed to do for the next power outage and that's to just stuff all the perishables in the snow. Actually I'm going to build an animal secure cooler box on the shady side of our home as there are just too many wild creatures roaming around that would love a free meal.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

Sorry, my posts are long winded. Thing is, to be survival minded it would be best to figure out how to get by with the least electrical use. Candles, kerosene use to a lesser extent for light. Spring houses for keeping foods cold. Cooler boxes, mainly used in colder climates. My grandmother had one in a corner kitchen cabinet on the North side of her house, she kept cheese, eggs and milk in it before she got a refrigerator. She also had a wood cook stove that had a water coil in the firebox which heated a fifty gallon water tank behind the stove by convection. When I was still a preteen she had a crank phone. People in those days were what we want to be now, self reliant, many had grown up without electricity. These days we have become addicted to power usage, we get withdrawal symptoms if our computers are in the shop for a few days. We have some very steep survival learning curves coming, best to learn them now and not after the fact.


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

TexasMama said:


> Ok - I am new enough to this to know I'm probably not going to phrase my question right....and that I may come across as stupid...or perhaps have my priorities in the wrong order...


I'm also starting from scratch on the whole power backup thing.

I think about it for SHORT TERM and for LONG TERM.

*Long term* - to go off-grid, or when power will be out for a month or more. A solar system is king. Batteries, panels, charge controllers, spare parts and preventive maintenance.

The only drawback for me is cost to built a sizable system to consistently run a deep well pump. I just can't afford all of this at once!

EMP is a consideration--but learning how to repair the things you can, and keep spares for what you cant, can help that.

*Short term* - Short term would be during a storm. In Texas, that usually means thunderstorms and hurricanes. Generators are great for this. The inverter generators in 1000 to 2000 watt sizes are reasonably quiet compared to the ones I grew up with. Some even have a 12 volt output that will work with car accessories (laptop charger, phone charger, USB charger, etc.) while you are running it for other appliances.

Smaller generators are also mobile. If your home is uninhabitable, you can take it with you. Or you can take it to the garage or in-laws, local fair or anywhere else you need power.

The major drawback is fuel availability. I can store a finite amount. 
Multiple fuel generators can be purchased; gasoline or propane and some even add Natural Gas capability. Oil changes are very important. Gasoline generators won't run every day for years on end, excepting a few of the best brands such as Kohler. One other option would be a welder-generator set for multiple function and use.

It is not easy to find a modern generator not controlled by electronics (EMP). But the generator works for just about every short-term situation.
*
The most important consideration is choosing your Load*--which appliances or machines to run if the power goes out. Both short term and long term. Some take a lot of power, some don't. Then design your system around those needs. It's great if you can build it in blocks as the other responses mention.

For example, coffee makers still require a good bit of power--raising water temp ain't cheap with electricity. Unless you have a huge supply of Keurig packs, how about preparing coffee a different way?

My brother considers the house AC system an important thing to run during hurricane power outages. He has a large Honda for his whole house AC system, and it powers the TV and fridge as well. My dad prefers to run small generators and window AC units.

*My plan is already in motion.* I have to build-as-I-go. I chose to get a small propane inverter generator + battery bank. I already have some small batteries, charger, cables and small inverters. I need to add panels, panel mounts, charge controllers, large batteries and large inverters. I am currently researching deep well pumps; Grundfos and Lorentz aren't cheap, and I'm looking for other options as well.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

In response to Fn/Form, I would definitely look at other options, specifically dc submersible diaphragm pumps like the shurflo 9300 and others, they are a bit pricy compared to a typical submersible and gpm is not high but efficiency is amazing. Coupled with some storage capacity, which we should have anyways, they put out more than enough in most cases. They do have a depth limit of like 250 feet or something like that so if you are really deep they may not be an option.
We still use old pumpjacks on a couple wells and the cool thing with them is they can be run with any motor, ac, dc, gas. Not too many people still using them though.


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## Well_Driller (Jun 3, 2012)

mosquitomountainman said:


> Propane is normally the best but also the most expensive. Gasoline and diesel fuels will work okay and cost less. Just be sure to have fuel stocked up in advance.


Cost of propane is really going to depend on where you live. Where i'm at it is way way cheaper than gasoline or diesel, and I don't even have to go get it. They bring it to me... As for solar, you will have the batteries to maintain, but also if you have wind, you can have wind generators working with the solar panels to charge the batteries, and those may be working even when you don't have any sunlight. The biggest thing I hate about the whole deal is battery maintenance, I've never had any luck with batteries, in anything. I quit using flash lights because they were always dead when the power would go out. My phone has a light on it, and even it was dead this last power outage we had.... just had to find my way through the dark until I got to the generator..... happens almost every time. One of these days i'll put in an auto-transfer switch. We are going to experiment with a couple of wind turbines though, working on building one now to provide about 600W for lighting.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Well_driller, I wonder what type of large batteries you have tried. On the farm we have a LOT of batteries and I have had very mixed results over the years. I have found a supplier of automotive batteries and flooded deep cycle that have performed very well, the key is that they are not the highest cranking amps possible for that size, they are made sturdier and with a little more room inside. We have only a couple batteries that require topping up and I think I will change that this year. So maintenance for us is simply disconnecting any power draws when a machine will sit for a long time and then either hooking up a little $10 solar panel to trickle charge or taking it to the shop to be charged.
Outside of the farm I have worked with a series of off-grid solar installations, these use top quality agm batteries, you cannot add water. There is no maintenance to perform and these batteries last Very well, have seen the case on one totally ruptured from an impact and it still worked fine. Have also seen these drawn completely dead in -40 multiple times and still work.
On the flip side I had experience with delco's and others in the past dropping like flies on the farm, big bucks down the drain and very frustrating.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

The 6 volt golf cart batteries I use are flooded deep cycle and I've had excellent performance from two old in series with two new ones. That's the ones we used last time we were out on the desert that worked so good but the old ones were at least 8 years old and they finally gave up and I replaced them all with batteries from Cosco. The two old batteries probably came from Cosco as the new ones look about the same. AGM batteries from what I understand were out of a military design, they are a bit more costly than the flooded batteries but as cowboyhermit mentioned they never need water. In charging acid vapors are absorbed in a glass mat in a chamber above the cells and the vapors condense and drop back down into the cell area. They aren't vented and cannot be equalize charged as flooded batteries can be, the high charge voltage of equalizing could blow the case out. When I had the old batteries in the motorhome I equalized them a couple of times as it cleans the sulfate build up from the plates, that can't be done too many times as it can warp the plates and possibly damage the cell insulators. Doing that and using a cell conditioner extended the life of those old batteries a few years.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

Well_Driller said:


> Cost of propane is really going to depend on where you live. ...


I was talking about the price of the generator. In my opinion propane is the way to go if you have the money to set it up. Like you said, the fuel stores well and you can easily get a bulk tank with fuel delivery. It's the Cadillac of fuel powered generating systems.

Wind might be a better option than solar panels in stormy weather.

For a short term (10 to 14 days or so) I'd still recommend a generator and stored fuel. You shouldn't need to run one 24/7 if you're careful. Also, get a mid-size one. We recommend 4,000 min. to 5,000 watts max. Anything larger really eats up the fuel. Anything smaller may not run some appliances (especially if they use a capacitor start motor). Plus, we've seen a lot of the cheaper ones tha would not even come near to the rated generating capacity. Our SIL bought a 3750 watt unit that wouldn't power his Skil Saw. (The breakers kept tripping.)

For the long term, solar is a decent option most places. A truly useful system is a lot more expensive to set up than a generator (on a $ per-watt basis) and stored fuel and I still wouldn't recommend it for emergency power.

The key is trying your system out sometime before you need it for real. Then you'll know what it can and can't do.


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

cowboyhermit said:


> In response to Fn/Form, I would definitely look at other options, specifically dc submersible diaphragm pumps like the shurflo 9300 and others, they are a bit pricy compared to a typical submersible and gpm is not high but efficiency is amazing. Coupled with some storage capacity, which we should have anyways, they put out more than enough in most cases. They do have a depth limit of like 250 feet or something like that so if you are really deep they may not be an option.
> We still use old pumpjacks on a couple wells and the cool thing with them is they can be run with any motor, ac, dc, gas. Not too many people still using them though.


You keyed in on my main concern--depth. I would rather have a few 700' pumps with lower output than one limited to 250'. 250' is almost unheard of in my immediate area.

If I am forced to move then I still have enough pump for most well depths within a few hundred miles. Assuming I keep piping in reserve as well.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Having dealt with small motors a lot I never want to be forced to rely on one in an emergency. 
Generators are great and everyone should probably have one, we have multiple. 
BUT motors do go Bang and then they are done. 
If one solar panel stops working you still have your battery bank and inverter and just need a way to charge it, wind, vehicle, another panel, anything to get you by. We have a panel with a bullet hole that is still in service, just a bit less output after several years.
If propane is the Cadillac, and I love how clean it is, but not it's extreme cold weather performance, then diesel is the pickup truck. Diesel generators, especially low rpm ones, are extremely durable and can run on many different fuel sources such as pretty much any type of oil, given the proper precautions. You can also run it partially on wood gas, methane, even propane or natural gas, using liquid fuel just to keep it idling, again with proper precautions.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

Fn/Form, that is the thing about forums like this, we get to see what other people have to deal with. Of all the wells we use, and that is several, the deepest pump is set at around 75 feet and could be lifted. It is important to remember that pumps with a slower gpm will draw down the level in the casing much less than a traditional pump. One of our wells was abandoned because it would go dry with the 10gpm pump it had but with 1gpm it can run all day, if it did that would be almost 1500 gallons, enough to water 150 cows
Some wells with water quality problems can be fixed with this type of pump as it keeps the water circulating much longer and avoids any stagnation.


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## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

Well_Driller said:


> Cost of propane is really going to depend on where you live. Where i'm at it is way way cheaper than gasoline or diesel, and I don't even have to go get it. They bring it to me... As for solar, you will have the batteries to maintain, but also if you have wind, you can have wind generators working with the solar panels to charge the batteries, and those may be working even when you don't have any sunlight. The biggest thing I hate about the whole deal is battery maintenance, I've never had any luck with batteries, in anything. I quit using flash lights because they were always dead when the power would go out. My phone has a light on it, and even it was dead this last power outage we had.... just had to find my way through the dark until I got to the generator..... happens almost every time. One of these days i'll put in an auto-transfer switch. We are going to experiment with a couple of wind turbines though, working on building one now to provide about 600W for lighting.


We were worried about that too in a power outage...TSC had LED flashlights with hooks for holding on a nail,etc, magnets for attaching to a metal sided shed, etc, for $3...we bought about 10.
They are in two bedrooms, a few closets, shed and vehicles. 
My dh said it lit up the side of his semi on the log yard one night.


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## Fn/Form (Nov 6, 2008)

Well_Driller said:


> ...The biggest thing I hate about the whole deal is battery maintenance, I've never had any luck with batteries, in anything. I quit using flash lights because they were always dead when the power would go out...


What batteries do you use in your flashlights? Do you know you can use lithium batteries (in CR123 size or AA) and store them for several years without harm? The manufacturers claim up to 10yrs storage life. ALSO, lithium batteries DO NOT drop in voltage when they get cold--like Alkaline and rechargeables do. They are not cheap, but they make for excellent emergency lights.

Like cowboyhermit said, there are good "big" batteries out there. You just have to choose the right battery for the job.

I used to sell/service UPS systems. They used everything from palm size to dishwasher sized cells or batteries. I dealt with literally tons of batteries every year.

No solar/UPS battery system is truly maintenance free, but many are relatively painless and reliable. Remember that you get what you pay for in batteries. And generally speaking, the more you cycle them, the shorter the life.

*Sealed Lead Acid (SLA)* type batteries are usually expected to last 3-5yrs max. No water needed, they are "sealed" as the name implies. Their life is greatly affected by ambient temperature. The hotter, the shorter the life. You can usually find the temperature/life expectancy charts online for each major brand. Yuasa NP series, Panasonic, Sonnenschein, CSB and others are decent quality SLAs. There are many cheaper brands, but they're made by a handful of people that just slap whatever brand you want on it. UltraTech, Universal Battery, etc.

*Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM)* batteries can last several years or more. They generally cost more, but they are better suited to solar use. Power Battery, Deka, Trojan are a few of the quality manufacturers.

*Valve-Regulated Lead Acid (VRLA) AGM* batteries are more expensive than the others. But with care and use within their guidelines they can last 10 to 20 years. We used to sell a lot of C&D Technologies Liberty 1000 (10yr battery) and msEndur (20yr cell). The Liberty batteries are 12V each, the msEndur are 2V each._

*Edit to add:_ You will see a lot of recommendations for golf cart batteries, tractor batteries, dozer batteries and other large, mobile power batteries. The issue here is one of performance. As large as they are they trade off capacity for ruggedness. They need to take the bouncing and vibrations without failing. That's why the are called "motive power" sources. On the other hand, a battery designed for "stationary" use will put more of your dollar into actual energy storage rather than ruggedness.

That said, a forklift battery would be a great improvised power source if you can regulate the voltage safely. ;-)

*Maintenance* for these systems includes the following:
- Proper tools and PPE; insulated tools (open end wrenches should be taped with a few layers of electrical tape, with only enough metal exposed to do your business) rubber apron, rubber gloves, long sleeve shirt, face shield, neutralizing agents handy (generally baking soda)
- Visual for corrosion, abnormal swelling (AGMs swell some or a lot depending on use) or heat signs from loose connections
- Voltage check on charger AND each battery or cell to make sure it is within spec; retain the voltage records to help catch problems before they get bad
- Load testing 
- Careful cable check for loose connections

Every few years, completely remove all cabling; check bottom insulating material under batteries, inspect cables/terminals; clean the terminals (brighten with wire brush) and hardware (stainless bolts are best), re-apply corrosion inhibitor, torque connections to spec.

*Working around batteries is serious business. * A lot of potential energy is stored in the battery. A LOT. Accidentally knocking a battery over, allowing a loose lead to hang, dropping uninsulated tools on top of battery terminals, etc. can threaten your eyesight, hearing, limbs or even your life. Be extremely attentive; no jamming out to your favorite music, talking on the phone or babysitting kids while you're working on the battery plant.


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## Well_Driller (Jun 3, 2012)

cowboyhermit said:


> Well_driller, I wonder what type of large batteries you have tried. On the farm we have a LOT of batteries and I have had very mixed results over the years. I have found a supplier of automotive batteries and flooded deep cycle that have performed very well, the key is that they are not the highest cranking amps possible for that size, they are made sturdier and with a little more room inside. We have only a couple batteries that require topping up and I think I will change that this year. So maintenance for us is simply disconnecting any power draws when a machine will sit for a long time and then either hooking up a little $10 solar panel to trickle charge or taking it to the shop to be charged.
> Outside of the farm I have worked with a series of off-grid solar installations, these use top quality agm batteries, you cannot add water. There is no maintenance to perform and these batteries last Very well, have seen the case on one totally ruptured from an impact and it still worked fine. Have also seen these drawn completely dead in -40 multiple times and still work.
> On the flip side I had experience with delco's and others in the past dropping like flies on the farm, big bucks down the drain and very frustrating.


I've worked with all types, doesn't seem to matter what it is. I used to work for an internet provider and we had a whole bank of UPS units, seemed like we were replacing batteries in those every month... they were not cheap units, and neither were the batteries. I can't remember though, the phone CO had two very large gel type batteries on their equipment rack in there and those never failed. I bet those are expensive but I think those might be a good set of batteries for a solar setup. I worked there for 8 years and those batteries were never replaced.... The batteries in the equipment and vehicles seem to be the biggest pain, seems like every time I turn around i'm buying a new battery for something. At one time I thought the drilling rig had a problem draining batteries, so I started disconnecting them, made no difference. It still killed them. The truck engine starter is hard on them. I finally went and bought a large truck battery and it lasted for 7 years at least. Was expensive....


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## Well_Driller (Jun 3, 2012)

mosquitomountainman said:


> I was talking about the price of the generator. In my opinion propane is the way to go if you have the money to set it up. Like you said, the fuel stores well and you can easily get a bulk tank with fuel delivery. It's the Cadillac of fuel powered generating systems.
> 
> Wind might be a better option than solar panels in stormy weather.
> 
> ...


I think they get a bit carried away with pricing sometimes. We do conversions on portable units and it usually doesn't cost that much. For short term, we run generator, for long term if you're talking years, I can do just as well without. I think i've said this before, the only thing i'd really miss about not having power is the convenience of flipping a switch for lights.... It wouldn't bother me a bit if the power went out tomorrow and didn't come back on for a long time.


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## cowboyhermit (Nov 10, 2012)

That's funny, I had bad luck with semi batteries on tractor that used them so converted to two automotive.
Right now our batteries are averaging a 10 year life on the farm and these are not expensive batteries. We have -40 every winter which makes for some really hard starts but our average temperature is pretty low, maybe that helps with the life. Batteries often get rotated from the highest demand applications to the lower ones as they age and their capacity is diminished. 
Solar trickle chargers have made a Huge difference in the life of our batteries.
Anderson power pole connectors or something similar can make swapping and disconnection much easier if someone doesn't like working with batteries.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

I have a 25 watt solar trickle charge system on top of our motorhome shed and it's the best thing I've done to keep the batteries maintained, especially in sub freezing weather where discharged batteries can freeze and split their cases.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

Well_Driller said:


> For short term, we run generator, for long term if you're talking years, I can do just as well without. I think i've said this before, the only thing i'd really miss about not having power is the convenience of flipping a switch for lights.... It wouldn't bother me a bit if the power went out tomorrow and didn't come back on for a long time.


 When all is said and done this is my feeling as well. It's why I'm strongly considering building a little animal secure spring house and feed my spring water overflow through it for keeping a few perishable foods cool.


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