# Springfield XD .9mm or Glock 19?



## Zonation

Alright all you second amendment loving Americans...I need your help. I'm adding to my arsenal this week. I'm stuck between two great guns, the XD and the Glock. Now I know that the glock has a great reputation but the XD has developed a huge following. Both are terrific guns and now I'm torn. Anyone's input to which of the two I should get is greatly appreciated. Thx.


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## ComputerGuy

OK IMHO. The dw has a Springfield XD-9 and loves it. When we went looking around this one just fit into her hands and signed on target right away. Being the one who has to clean, quick take-down. I also just bought her an Aim Sports flashlight for it.

I have a XD-40 and love it too. Right now saving for a Springfield 1911-A1.

Good luck on your decision. I am sure someone will have something good to say about Glocks, they are a good weapon too, I just don't have any experience with one.


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## Jimmy24

I have an XD 40 and love it. Saving for a XD 45.

Glocks cannot be discounted as they are a very fine weapon. I just like to go against the grain on most things....:nuts:

JMHO

Jimmy


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## pandamonium

I have an XdM in .45 acp. Love that thing!! Accurate as ANY handgun I have ever fired, comfortable in my hand, and reliable. The XdM comes with interchangeable backstraps to made it fit well to different size hands. The .45 holds 13 rounds, thats a decent quantity for such a large round. 
I was at the range one day and there was a guy there with a 9mm xdm, he said he got the 9 because he was concerned about the controlability of the .45acp, I let him shoot a couple of mags through mine and he said the recoil was damn near the same as his 9. I know the .45 jumps more but the point is it is easily controlled.


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## Moby76065

Funny I saw this post.
I just met with the police Chief of Venus TX yesterday who had purchased the Springfield XD .40 for his officers. 
According to him (I have little knowledge of this weapon) several jammed after repeated firing. He sent tham back and got Glocks.
I have another freind who is a Dallas Cop and SWAT instructor who ownes one and he has not had a jam. He likes the XD 9mm.

I personally own a Glock so like everyone else I tend to promote what I use. I've never, and I do mean NEVER, after 20 years with a Glock 21 and hundreds and hundreds of rounds had a jam or misfire with all types of ammo. It goes bang EVERY time! I'm a firm believer in Glock.


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## Zonation

ComputerGuy said:


> OK IMHO. The dw has a Springfield XD-9 and loves it. When we went looking around this one just fit into her hands and signed on target right away. Being the one who has to clean, quick take-down. I also just bought her an Aim Sports flashlight for it.
> 
> I have a XD-40 and love it too. Right now saving for a Springfield 1911-A1.
> 
> Good luck on your decision. I am sure someone will have something good to say about Glocks, they are a good weapon too, I just don't have any experience with one.


Springfield 1911-A1 is a great weapon. Hope you get it soon. I tend to love the grip on the XD but with the gen 4 glock now having an adjustable grip it makes things a little more difficult.


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## Zonation

Thanks for everyone's input. The XD is darn comfortable an have heard of people firing thousands of rounds with out a jam. Glock is reputable and damn near indestructible. I think the thing that might persuade me tithe XD is the grip safety. But....the best safety is what's in between your ears.


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## lefty

Both are fine weapons, I have an XD 45, love it, It is accurate and comfortable to hold. I have never had a jam or problem of any kind


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## truecarnage

To all who love there .45's that was not the mans question!
Now to try & help I think you should try to shoot both and see if ya like one more than the other.
I don't have a XD and I've never shot one
I do have a third Gen. G17 and only have good things to say about it.
As for the .45 folk's who's feelings I just hurt a second ago, I've got a Kimber that I'll put up against any sub $2,500.00 factory 45


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## fat_frog

Both are great pistols... I have XD9 Service and XD9SC. Before buying XD, I held glock and realized it wasn't comfortable in my hand.

Just go to your local range and shoot both, and decide which you can shoot better and which feels better in your hands.


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## lefty

truecarnage said:


> To all who love there .45's that was not the mans question!
> Now to try & help I think you should try to shoot both and see if ya like one more than the other.
> I don't have a XD and I've never shot one
> I do have a third Gen. G17 and only have good things to say about it.
> As for the .45 folk's who's feelings I just hurt a second ago, I've got a Kimber that I'll put up against any sub $2,500.00 factory 45


the man asked about a XD or glock pistol. and with the exception of a refrence to saving for a springfield 1911 the refrence to 45 both of them were commenting on our opnion of the XD which was the mans question. I did not see anyone debating the 45 vs 9mm.

don't worry I'm not offended just because you did not understand the posts.


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## Zonation

It's actually fine if people speak of their .45 or .40. What's relevant to me is if they are happy with their choice of gun. After-all, a 9 glock will work as well as a 45 and the same for Xd's.


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## lefty

you may want to go to a gun range where you can rent pistols. Try them both and see. I have a good friend that went with the glock 40 because he loved the way it fit his hand. good luck


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## Zonation

lefty said:


> you may want to go to a gun range where you can rent pistols. Try them both and see. I have a good friend that went with the glock 40 because he loved the way it fit his hand. good luck


Thanks lefty. I may add that I have shot both and both feel great. I feel that the trigger is a little smoother on the glock but the xd has one more safety and feels just as solid. Just wondering what everyone thinks.


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## lefty

well it really is a personal choice. To me the xd feels like and extension of my arm and hand the glock was ok but not a part of me, if that makes any sense. You will not go wrong with either one.


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## mojo4

Ive owned and carried glocks for 15 years. Never any problems and they are very accurate pistols. I picked up 2 4th gen glocks and couldnt be happier. The xd is good but since its twice the price and not twice the gun also i stood with glocks. Why try to fix what isnt broken?? Also... There are alot more parts and accessories for glocks like 30 round mags and such that they dont have for xds. Glocks are killer quality and the lowest price and thats why yhey are my pick.


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## Zonation

mojo4 said:


> Ive owned and carried glocks for 15 years. Never any problems and they are very accurate pistols. I picked up 2 4th gen glocks and couldnt be happier. The xd is good but since its twice the price and not twice the gun also i stood with glocks. Why try to fix what isnt broken?? Also... There are alot more parts and accessories for glocks like 30 round mags and such that they dont have for xds. Glocks are killer quality and the lowest price and thats why yhey are my pick.


What's up mojo!! Xd's are twice the price? I think Current Xd pricing is less than glock all the way around by at least $100.00. And you know what sucks? The gen 4 Glock is not yet California compliant. I have no idea what's up with this crappy state. I saw one of those 30 round clips online and They are crazy. It's unfortunate though that I'm limited to 10 in the mag and 1 in the chamber.


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## mojo4

No zo, here in free america glocks are substantially cheaper than the xdm's. I was comparing the glock 17 to the xdm with the 19 round magazine. Here in free america we don't let our politicians limit our mag capacity!! My glock was around 440 out the door and the xdm was almost 800.


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## mojo4

Sorry zo, I like to crack on the poor people stuck in liberalville hell (see NY, MD, IL, CA....) all those wonderful places where morons decide how much 2nd you get to have!


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## Zonation

LOL!!!! I've always wanted to see free America. Yet unfortunately I'm stuck here in nightmare liberalism. God willing Soon i can head to Texas. That's cool that you Glock was only 440. Today there is a sale on the 17 or 19 for $509. I'm going to make up my mind tomorrow. I'm still on the fence and it might come down to a coin flip.


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## mojo4

Well zo here's my 2 cents you didn't ask for...... the 19 is better for concealed as its smaller and fits nicely in a belt leather pancake holster and the 17 is better for longer range accuracy as the barrel is longer but only holds 2 more rounds. So do what I did...... buy them both!!


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## ldmaster

*Spares*

I'm pretty sure Springfield isn't doing spares yet. A big issue for me is how cheap and easy it is to get spare parts, the ones that break, not the ones that make the weapon fancier.

Two years ago I had assurances from their parts manager that they DID sell individual parts, he transferred me to an order desk. I tried to order a spare striker (no) a spare barrel (no) . . . I went down the list and the order clerk gave me a no on all of them.

I know there are aftermarket parts guys out there, but if you can't order spares from the manufacturer then there is a PROBLEM. It's why police agencies aren't moving to the XDM, even though it's a pretty nice weapon - most agencies allow multiple types of guns - but they wont approve any gun their armorer can't order parts for.

I like the XD, but I've got to go with Glock - parts are super cheap - and unless some aftermarket place starts selling ALL of the internal parts separately, I just can't think of a survival gun that I have no spares for.


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## Zonation

mojo4 said:


> Well zo here's my 2 cents you didn't ask for...... the 19 is better for concealed as its smaller and fits nicely in a belt leather pancake holster and the 17 is better for longer range accuracy as the barrel is longer but only holds 2 more rounds. So do what I did...... buy them both!!


Mojo...I think you have the ability to get me to spend money. Lol!!! First ammo to go and now guns. I think I just might buy an Xd and a Glock.


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## LincTex

lefty said:


> I have a good friend that went with the glock 40 because he loved the way it fit his hand. good luck


I bought an ex-LEO G22 (2nd gen) for really cheap... I sanded the contour of the grip down to fit my hand.


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## Zonation

Alright guys it's settled. I just bought a bb gun. Lol!!!!


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## mojo4

Oh so you went with the croatian springfield then??


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## Zonation

mojo4 said:


> Oh so you went with the croatian springfield then??


LMAO!!!! Nope. I'm most likely getting a Glock 19 and a XDM .40 s&w.


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## Zonation

Or I can get a Glock 19 and spend 250-300 on Surefire Forend with mounted light for my Mossberg 500.


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## mojo4

Id stick with the pistols. You can always cheaply attach a flashlight to a gun and the kits are too expensive for what you get. Just my opinion though. What's the mag capapcity on the .40 cal? Oh yeah, its only 10. Gotta love you golden bear state people!! Hahahahaha, sorry, had to get in 1 more crack.


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## LongRider

We are an XD family XD9mm, XD9mm subcompact, XD45 and XD.45 compact waiting for the new XD.45 single stack to hit the shops around here. That said nothing wrong with Glock shoot both which "feels" better in your hand which do you shoot better. That is the gun you need to carry.


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## lefty

Zonation said:


> LMAO!!!! Nope. I'm most likely getting a Glock 19 and a XDM .40 s&w.


there you go one of each.


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## recon-1

Glock 19 for me. The AK of pistols.


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## LincTex

mojo4 said:


> What's the mag capapcity on the .40 cal? Oh yeah, its only 10. Gotta love you golden bear state people!! Hahahahaha, sorry, had to get in 1 more crack.


I guess if you are in Kali all mags are limited to 10 rds. 
My G22 is carried with 15 rds.


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## BlueShoe

I just don't know why someone would choose a 9mm for a handgun cartridge?
The injured police officer at the Sihk temple supposedly was shot 8 times with a 9mm, and lived. Thankfully lived, but that's not a good representation of fire power.


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## LincTex

tenOC said:


> The injured police officer at the Sihk temple supposedly was shot 8 times with a 9mm, and lived.


Where were the shots placed? Did they count grazed shots? Was he wearing a vest?


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## BlueShoe

Good points. If I'm not mistaken, one report I found said 'extremities', but the officer was in critical condition and surgery according to early reports. I believe all police in major populations wear vests now.
Look at what Daniel Inuoye did in WWII and still went charging up a hill. He was shot with more than a 9. I'd want knock down.


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## goose

I'm a little late here, but when I bought my first pistol four+ years ago, I did a lot of comparison of Glock to the XD.

Other than the name, I couldn't find a single reason I'd choose a Glock over an XD.

The Glock had no safety at all (only a moron would consider that trigger safety a safety), while the XD had the same trigger safety plus the grip safety plus the drop safety.

The XD has a striker-cocked indicator you can feel without looking at it and a loaded chamber indicator you can see or feel.

Glocks cost more (that's probably the Tommy Lee Jones effect from US Marshals), and give you less. 

Glocks shoot well--I've shot them well--but when it comes to picking a SHTF weapon, IMO there's no pistol better than the XD. If you've ever seen the 20,000 round torture test, you KNOW why you want an XD.


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## ldmaster

*Huh?*

Costs more and gives less?

The trigger safety is the only safety?

It's clear you're familiar with your XD, but not the glock.

The same safeties you cite in the XD exist in the glock, with the exception of the grip safety.

I do own both guns. That being said, while shooting with heavy gloves in a night shoot with the XD I had difficulty deactivating the grip safety and thus, couldn't get some shots off. If/when the bad stuff happens, having a safety that is difficult to manipulate under bad environmental conditions isn't something I'd call a "feature".

On a different vein, I'd say that the whole concept of additional safety features is WAY overrated. It seems like XD found every conceivable safety that was capable of being incorporated and then incorporated it.

Examining why a safety exists needs to happen. Loading chamber indicator? Unnecessary. Cocked hammer/striker indicator? WHY? So, there you are, you've chambered your glock, and you can't tell if it's loaded... You've chambered your XD and you can tell, and that the striker is cocked... Again, where does this benefit a self-defense situation? A chamber check is still mandatory. Checking your ready state should always happen prior to holstering, regardless of external indicators. Becoming dependent on those indicators isn't something that I think will happen for me, if I'm wearing gloves (often enough since I live in Colorado) I can't feel the indicators well enough to trust them, so I'm going to do a chamber check. If it's dark, I can't see the indicators either - again, a chamber check. For ANY gun I might use or pick up, I'm going to do a chamber check, it's a 100 percent solution to those questions - muscle memory for a chamber check gets ingrained, and you can do it on any pistol you pick up.

But, the spares issue is still a huge issue. You can order any glock part from glock, you cannot do this with Springfield, I just tried again this morning to order an extractor - still "no". Then there's my failure to fire with the heavy gloves during an exercise, that grip safety is too much overkill and was a failure point for me.

Believe me when I say that I really don't like glocks, I prefer two other types of gun over the glock. But when push comes to shove, my experience and the experience of hundreds of thousands of regular glock owners shows that the glock has fewer failures under stress situations than any of it's contemporaries. It's sucks, but it's true, if I had to pick one gun for the end of the world, it would be a glock - and I've shot and owned hundreds of modern autopistols.

XD's are cheaper than glocks, NIB, but XDM's (with all the nice ergo features) are more expensive than the glock. But neither price is enough to definitely give either a definitive edge.

Glock has it's corporate quirks as well, different from Springfields. Ever hear of a glock recall? You wont. What they have is "quiet upgrades" with no official announcement.

My issues aren't with the XD, I like the way it shoots and have moved some people who had issues with gripping the glock - who are quite happy with the move. My issues are with the company and it's policies, open up the parts pipeline and I'd say they were about equal (minus the over-engineered endless "safety" features).


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## Zonation

Well...it's nice to see that this tread has progressed. I am enjoying everyone's input and still am going to get one of each. And then a Beretta.


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## Viking

I've never handled a Glock so I really couldn't say anything about them other than I hand load for a Stoeger Cougar 40 and I can tell if the cases have been fired in a Glock due to the unsupported area in their chamber for the extractor they leave a noticeable bulge just above the extractor grove in the case. I own an XDm 40 and the only time it FTE was when I limp wrested it. If I had bought the Cougar first I would not have bought the XDm, even with the four 16 round magazine I have for it, mainly because to me it just doesn't come on target like the Cougar does. My suggestion is to handle and shoot, if possible, more than just the two firearms you mention because due to the individuality of how different firearms fit and point in your hands.


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## Sentry18

I am not a huge Glock fan, but I agree that they do make a durable gun. I don't really have much experience with the XD or XDm line being more of a S&W guy but it seems they have a big following. My every day carry rotation includes an M&P Shield and a full size M&P, both are amazing guns and are worthy of consideration. But FWIW I keep a Glock 17 in my bug out bag along with a Glock 22 slide/barrel. That gives me a dual caliber gun with spare parts all over the US in police holsters if things go sideways.


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## mojo4

Goose I gotta agree with the powerlifting hamster guy! A glock is way cheaper than a xdm and I don't really like the grip safety anyway. But that's my personal preference only. As far as reliability the glock is unmatched. I've owned numerous glocks and all they do is work. Every time. Completely awesome!!


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## Hoze928

mojo4 said:


> Goose I gotta agree with the powerlifting hamster guy! A glock is way cheaper than a xdm and I don't really like the grip safety anyway. But that's my personal preference only. As far as reliability the glock is unmatched. I've owned numerous glocks and all they do is work. Every time. Completely awesome!!


Have been cruising this site for the last few months great info from all. I have never felt the need to add to a discussion except for today. Now I agree with the process of holding and shooting as many handguns as possible before buying. Each has it's likes and dislikes myself not a big fan of Glock but love my Springfields but thats me nothing wrong with a Glock just not for me. I do see a comment quite often that I need clarification on none of my Springfields come anywhere near a Glock in price Glocks being in avenge $150-$200 more per gun where I live in he Midwest. I know I'm not crazy having just purchased a new XDS I did look at an equivalent Glock which was quite a but more. What states do you live in that a Glock is cheaper?


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## truecarnage

Here in Florida the Glocks are a little cheaper gun for gun but if you go for the package deal I think the Springfield comes in cheaper. 
A pelican case, 3 mags, holster, magazine holder, mag. Loader, etc.


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## Hoze928

I can see why Florida might be a little cheaper being pretty far from Springfields home. I just got the package XDS .45 with case, holster, 2 mag holder, 2 mags, useless lock, extra high vis sights, cleaning rod $565 out the door. I believe same package in Glock was $700. Maybe being in Nebraska I'm getting a better deal being closer to the armory.


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## truecarnage

Hoze928 said:


> I can see why Florida might be a little cheaper being pretty far from Springfields home. I just got the package XDS .45 with case, holster, 2 mag holder, 2 mags, useless lock, extra high vis sights, cleaning rod $565 out the door. I believe same package in Glock was $700. Maybe being in Nebraska I'm getting a better deal being closer to the armory.


Ya the XD package is awesome looking, they really know how to put all the bells and whistles nicely together. I need to rent one some day so I'll know what they shoot like


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## Zonation

I would definitely be getting an XDm if I could, but they are not compliant here in Hellifornia. Hey Mojo!!! This is a little off topic but what's better...oo buck or #4?


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## LincTex

Zonation said:


> going to get one of each. And then a Beretta.


Take a look at the Taurus PT 92.

I bought one for $275 thinking I was going to flip it quick for another $75, but I can't sell it now, I like it too much.


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## mojo4

I checked on the xdm in 9mm and it was 800 (I wanted the green handle also, not sure if that changed the price) but it came in a case with holster and mag pouches and 3 hi cap mags. The glock was 440 out the door but it was gun and 3 mags only. I live in Colorado also. The springfields are actually made in Croatia. My glock says made in austria but also says smyrna, GA so who knows. And zo, I really like the #4 buck cause every shot fires 27 pellets that are .24 caliber instead of 9 .36 caliber pellets. Same price too. Check ammotogo, j&gsales and cheaperthandirt for good prices and availability. To clear up things I was looking at the xdm's not the regular xd's. But I shot the xdm and it was very comparable in quality and accuracy to a glock. But again it was almost twice the price and not as many parts and option available.


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## Hoze928

Yea Springfields are made in Croatia but I believe they are assembled in US. Lets them say mostly US parts or some such junk. Glock I think is made in Austria assembled in Georgia. I picked up a nice little gun about 8 months ago that you might want to check out. It's a little S&W .38 revolver with a 3 inch barrel with the hammer. Paid like $300 for it nice little gun. The little women loved it so much she took it and dumped a Walther PPK .380 on me.


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## Zonation

Mojo, I was going to get an Xdm but they are not Cali legal. I don't know what's up with this stupid state. Going to buy ammo today and work on my bug out bag.


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## Zonation

Here's an update. I just picked up a Glock 19. It was slightly used, but I saved $120. Oh yeah.


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## LongRider

Zonation said:


> I would definitely be getting an XDm if I could, but they are not compliant here in Hellifornia. Hey Mojo!!! This is a little off topic but what's better...oo buck or #4?


The XDm .45 compact is compliant to the People Republic of Kalifornia's unconstitutional Civil Rights Restrictions as is the XD .45 compact


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## Zonation

LongRider said:


> The XDm .45 compact is compliant to the People Republic of Kalifornia's unconstitutional Civil Rights Restrictions as is the XD .45 compact


Really? The guy at the gun store was wrong.


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## pandamonium

truecarnage said:


> Ya the XD package is awesome looking, they really know how to put all the bells and whistles nicely together. I need to rent one some day so I'll know what they shoot like


If you ever come to my neck of the woods you are more than welcome to shoot mine!


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## mojo4

Zo you have chosen wisely. IMHO you picked the cadillac of pistols. Have fun never jamming!!


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## Zonation

mojo4 said:


> Zo you have chosen wisely. IMHO you picked the cadillac of pistols. Have fun never jamming!!


Thanks dude. Just have to get a few mags extensions for a better grip and I'm good to go. Can't wait.


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## LongRider

Zonation said:


> Really? The guy at the gun store was wrong.


Yes he is. The XD .45 compact holds 10 rounds plus 1 in the chamber The XDm.45 compact holds 9 plus 1 in the chamber both are CA compliant.
The XDs .45 (my next gun) holds 7 plus 1 in a single stack so also CA compliant.
That said I see you got a Glock if it is what you fits you best and what you shoot the best. You have nothing to regret. As that is what matters. For me the XD 1911 style grip angle is what suits me best. What I shoot best and fits my hand the best. After more than a 1,000 rounds in each of the XD.45s, XDm.45 and both XD9mms I have had only one FTF and they all hit what I am pointing at. So I am more than happy with performance. Point being whichever works best for you is the best gun there is for you. For me it is my lil family of XDs. For you I hope it is the Glock you bought


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## Zonation

@Longrider...I know that the Xdm can hold a 10 round clip but that's not the reason he said it isn't Cali compliant. His reasoning was that it didn't pass the drop test or the drop test hasn't been given. There are many guns out there that could be sold in Cali and yet they are not because of political red tape. Thanks on your sentiment concerning my purchase. I am extremely excited that I was able to add another firearm to my small collection. Next will be the XD. Hopefully by October.


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## LongRider

Zonation said:


> @Longrider...I know that the Xdm can hold a 10 round clip but that's not the reason he said it isn't Cali compliant. His reasoning was that it didn't pass the drop test or the drop test hasn't been given. There are many guns out there that could be sold in Cali and yet they are not because of political red tape. Thanks on your sentiment concerning my purchase. I am extremely excited that I was able to add another firearm to my small collection. Next will be the XD. Hopefully by October.


Well now you have my curiosity going. As I know folks in the Peoples Republic who have XD's and the only issue was the magazine capacity. Which is why XD's with magazines with more than a ten round capacity are marked not legal in California. Here is an listing of California certified legal XDs, *California Compliant XD`s* granted it is out of date but I can not see how even in the Peoples Republic Of California they could pass a law retroactively banning previously certified guns. No doubt in my mind that XD would pass any drop test as the XD can not fire without a proper firing grip and and deliberate pull on the trigger. So far as the drop test is concerned if one XD would pass the drop test they all would as the safeties of every XD is exactly the same except for those that have the additional manual safety. 
Here are some links to some XD articles if you want to do some reading on them. As I recall several discuss the passive safeties on the XD
XD Torture test
SPRINGFIELD'S XD SUB-COMPACT GOES HIGH-CAP
SPRINGFIELD'S XD GOES THE DISTANCE
THE XD EXTREME DUTY SERVICE AUTO PISTOL
SPRINGFIELD'S .45 GAP XD TACTICAL PISTOL
SPRINGFIELD XD .40 SUB-COMPACT
SPRINGFIELD'S X-TREME DUTY POLYMER POWERHOUSE
The XD Goes ACP
SPRINGFIELD'S SUB-COMPACT XD
Springfield's XD Keeps On Growing
SPRINGFIELD'S XD GETS LITTLE
Springfield's XD .45
SPRINGFIELD GOES POLYMER
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY XD SERIES
Sizing Down, Powering Up
A FAIR SHARE OF ABUSE
Of course continue your research and do get your hands on an XD to shoot if you plan on having an XD in your future but for now I'd suggest you go shoot the crap out of your Glock. Take a firearms course or two with it. Enjoy your new toy it is a great gun. Learn it so you know it like the back of your hand.


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## mojo4

Not 100% sure but I think its because the xd can fire without a mag in the pistol. With the glocks I think they make an adjustment so its compliant. But CA gun laws are rediculous so who knows!


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## Zonation

What's interesting is that one would think that the gen 4 glock would be a show in for Cali since the others are already sold, but it's not. Only law enforcement can get a 4th gen glock. The only thing that I can think of is that each gen has to pass a stupid drop test. I would think that if a gen 3 passed, that a 4th would as well. But....not yet.


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## Zonation

Just looked it up and the XDm is not Cali legal. Has to do with the mag disconnect and ammo capacity. Either way it's ridiculous. The XDm is awesome.


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## Zonation

Mojo....what .9mm ammo at ammotogo do you recommend?


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## LincTex

Zonation said:


> Mojo....what .9mm ammo at ammotogo do you recommend?


This looks like a good deal: 50rds - 9mm Federal LE 115gr. +P+ Hollow Point Ammo http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/produ...gr-p-hollow-point-ammo/cName/9mm-hollow-point But it is +P+ so be careful, that's hot.

I would probably buy from here... do they ship to CA?
http://www.ammoman.com/p/373/9mm-federal-le-tactical-p-efmj-124-grain-p9csp1


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## mojo4

I really like the fedeal +P+ ammo on cheaper than dirt. Its 17 bucks for 50 rounds. The speer +P is also good ammo too just more expensive. Also pick up lots and lots of cheap wolf or tul 9mm ammo. Its cheap and dirty just like a good date! The glocks just eat it up and ask for seconds. Lots of fun!!


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## Zonation

I was also thinking of Aguila. I hear it's pretty good for the price. 50 rounds for $10. Not bad.


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## Zonation

Mojo...did you shoot your glock right out of the box? Or did you clean it before you shot it?


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## radio477

Ok just to play devil advocate, why don't all you rambos out there sell your glocks and xds and buy 3 hi points for the same price plus have some money left for extra mags and ammo!


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## LincTex

radio477 said:


> Ok just to play devil advocate, why don't all you rambos out there sell your glocks and xds and buy 3 hi points for the same price plus have some money left for extra mags and ammo!


Can I buy older Taurus PT92's instead?


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## mojo4

radio477 said:


> Ok just to play devil advocate, why don't all you rambos out there sell your glocks and xds and buy 3 hi points for the same price plus have some money left for extra mags and ammo!


If I'm using a pistol to save my life I will stick with glocks!! But lemme know how the hi points work out for you. And yeah zo I clean em first. Not sure how long they sat around and I like to make sure the barrel is clean. Plus glock also puts a copper looking grease and I like my guns clean!


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## ldmaster

OK, Viking, I'm seriously curious.

You've never handled a glock.
There's an "extractor groove" on a fired glock case?
There a 'bulge' just above the extractor groove?

What I'm seeing is the same old "glock kaboom" urban fallacies that I've seen for the past twenty years.

The ONLY way to tell is something has been fired from a Glock is to look at the firing pin striker mark. It's sorta square, unlike the rest of the pistols out there that use a rounded firing pin. 

"unsupported" area? ALL pistols with a barrel that has an integral feedramp has an "unsupported area". This type of posting is ALWAYS drifting around the internet as if it meant anything. ALL BLOWBACK TYPE OR DELAYED/TILT PISTOLS HAVE AN UNSUPPORTED AREA. 

It became a big deal because folks were using glocks in competition, and in the "old days" you had to have a power factor to 'make major' that was essentially weight time velocity. Wanting the high capacity 40 cal to essentially generate a higher rating, a lot of guys handloaded their pistols to above average pressures. In many, MANY glocks modified for competition WEGSOG type gunsmiths would "polish" their feedramp using a dremel tool and fine stone. WRONG way to do it, you remove material in the feedramp area and thus end up with less support above the web of the casing. Comparing the web area of 9mm to 45acp to the newer 40sw round, it was found that not all casing were alike. Some had thicker brass near the base and some had thinner - guess which caliber had the thinnest? (you dont get to, it was 40cal). 45acp shooters were quick to jump on the same bandwagon when they'd have a blowout. When you overload a round, it generates more pressure and brass "flows" under high pressure, deforming and bulging where not supported (unless it's thicker, like the base)

Thus was born glock "kaboom" and a ton of barrel manufacturers started talking about "unsupported barrels" and guys bought these new barrels, which still had an unsupported area, but minimized it to a great extent. 

Unsupported is not an absolute, it's a matter of degree for all common pistol barrels. Falling for the "I replaced my unsupported glock barrel" thing was a fad to a great extent. I've had two glock blow up in my hand (scars to prove it) each time it was ammunition related, a compressed load from a dropped round and a casing that had been reloaded too many times. 

ALL GUNS will have "kabooms" the factors that go into it are many. rant off...

You can't tell glock brass by a "bulged area" above the NON-EXISTENT "extractor groove". Why?

OK...

The extractor on the glock is on the right side of the gun, at 3oclock.
The feedramp (where the unsupported area is supposed to be) is at 6 oclock.
I'm usually hard pressed to find an extractor groove marking, since the round is almost always slid under it as the round loads, the same is true for most pistols. When you DO find extractor markings, it's usually from people who load the first round by hand and drop the slide on it. 

but heck, NOT knowing about the glock square firing pin hole says enough about the purported knowledge stated above, by his own admission he's never handled or examined a glock - but the miracle of google makes everybody an instant expert.


----------



## LongRider

Zonation said:


> Mojo...did you shoot your glock right out of the box? Or did you clean it before you shot it?


Use what you will for practice but PLEASE don't use cheap crap ammo for self defense. I carry Federal HST as it is the most reliable consistently expanding round available no matter what it is shot into or through

Here are a couple of links I posted on another thread. Federal HST by far out perform every other bullet I have seen and studied. No matter what they are shot through or into hey are the most consistent performing and expanding round available. Ammunition To Go! keeps a supply available at with decent prices and excellent service.

This first set are tests done by LEO and are downloadable PDF files
Los Angeles County - California
Riverside - California
Santa Clara - California
Fresno County - California
Kern County - California
Sacramento County - California
San Angelo - Texas
Pierce County Workshop - Washington
San Diego County Workshop - California
Portland Police Bureau - Oregon

The following are links to pages with pics from a two different sites
ballistics testing - round 1 - varied 9mm JHP's
ballistics testing - round 2 - varied 9mm JHP's
ballistics testing - round 3 - varied 9mm JHP's - shooting through tshirts
ballistics testing - round 5 - comparing 9mm JHP velocities
ballistics testing - round 6 - Federal HST 9mm vs 45 acp 
ballistics testing - round 7 - shooting through denim - 9 mm, 45 acp, and 357 magnum

Terminal Ballistics .45 ACP
Terminal Ballistics 9mm

There is also a rather informative thread here with pics at Federal HST vs, Hydra-Shock pics 

I have never heard of HST having a problem with any gun but be sure to reliability test whatever ammo you intend on carrying for self defense in your gun. Typical standard is 200 to 250 rounds without a single FTF, which is what I do. The last thing you want to hear is click when your life depends upon bang.


----------



## LincTex

mojo4 said:


> If I'm using a pistol to save my life I will stick with glocks!! But lemme know how the hi points work out for you.


Those Hi-Points are just so damn ugly, boxy, and feel so cheap and junky when handled. Those two things might have a psychological effect when under pressure. I would have more confidence in a pistol I "felt better" about.

I did a web search for "hi point torture test" and it is pretty interesting, although I have no plans (or desire) to go purchase one.


----------



## Viking

ldmaster said:


> OK, Viking, I'm seriously curious.
> 
> You've never handled a glock.
> There's an "extractor groove" on a fired glock case?
> There a 'bulge' just above the extractor groove?
> 
> What I'm seeing is the same old "glock kaboom" urban fallacies that I've seen for the past twenty years.
> 
> The ONLY way to tell is something has been fired from a Glock is to look at the firing pin striker mark. It's sorta square, unlike the rest of the pistols out there that use a rounded firing pin.
> 
> "unsupported" area? ALL pistols with a barrel that has an integral feedramp has an "unsupported area". This type of posting is ALWAYS drifting around the internet as if it meant anything. ALL BLOWBACK TYPE OR DELAYED/TILT PISTOLS HAVE AN UNSUPPORTED AREA.
> 
> It became a big deal because folks were using glocks in competition, and in the "old days" you had to have a power factor to 'make major' that was essentially weight time velocity. Wanting the high capacity 40 cal to essentially generate a higher rating, a lot of guys handloaded their pistols to above average pressures. In many, MANY glocks modified for competition WEGSOG type gunsmiths would "polish" their feedramp using a dremel tool and fine stone. WRONG way to do it, you remove material in the feedramp area and thus end up with less support above the web of the casing. Comparing the web area of 9mm to 45acp to the newer 40sw round, it was found that not all casing were alike. Some had thicker brass near the base and some had thinner - guess which caliber had the thinnest? (you dont get to, it was 40cal). 45acp shooters were quick to jump on the same bandwagon when they'd have a blowout. When you overload a round, it generates more pressure and brass "flows" under high pressure, deforming and bulging where not supported (unless it's thicker, like the base)
> 
> Thus was born glock "kaboom" and a ton of barrel manufacturers started talking about "unsupported barrels" and guys bought these new barrels, which still had an unsupported area, but minimized it to a great extent.
> 
> Unsupported is not an absolute, it's a matter of degree for all common pistol barrels. Falling for the "I replaced my unsupported glock barrel" thing was a fad to a great extent. I've had two glock blow up in my hand (scars to prove it) each time it was ammunition related, a compressed load from a dropped round and a casing that had been reloaded too many times.
> 
> ALL GUNS will have "kabooms" the factors that go into it are many. rant off...
> 
> You can't tell glock brass by a "bulged area" above the NON-EXISTENT "extractor groove". Why?
> 
> OK...
> 
> The extractor on the glock is on the right side of the gun, at 3oclock.
> The feedramp (where the unsupported area is supposed to be) is at 6 oclock.
> I'm usually hard pressed to find an extractor groove marking, since the round is almost always slid under it as the round loads, the same is true for most pistols. When you DO find extractor markings, it's usually from people who load the first round by hand and drop the slide on it.
> 
> but heck, NOT knowing about the glock square firing pin hole says enough about the purported knowledge stated above, by his own admission he's never handled or examined a glock - but the miracle of google makes everybody an instant expert.


Did I say I didn't know about the square firing pin indentation? Actually you confirmed that the 40 S&W brass I picked up at the range where police and sheriff practice was from Glocks because that's what they use in the surrounding counties. Glock isn't the only handgun that gets bulges near the base but it's the most notable and there is at least two reloading die makers that make a die to take care of the bulge, Redding G-Rx Push thru base sizing die and Lee which makes the Lee Buldge Buster. You may want to go to: https://fsreloading.com/lee-bulge-buster-90487.html Please read what it says about Glock fired cases. So the next time you flame someone please check to see if you are without sin to cast so many stones.


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## mojo4

Another awesome thing with the glocks??? You can make em fully auto!! Check youtube and there are videos showing how. Its a few parts you change out, I haven't priced em out yet but it would be awesome to have one. Not sure if you need a atf license to buy one if someone has more knowledge about this please post!!


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## ldmaster

I don't flame anybody - if you are feeling singed it might be because your ststements were unsupportable. 

And geez quoting an entire post is so twentieth century!

Depending on WHAT ammo is fired you will find some bulged cases on every police range amongst a lot of unbulged cases - why?

Because every year (at least) a police officer shoots his carry ammo for qualifications and gets issued fresh, During practice and other quals they use standard practice ammo. But carry ammo is almost always higher pressure higher velocity plus P ammo. Especially 9 mm +p+ stuff. You'll see a lot of back flow around the primer strike and occasional punctured primers. 

The problem of resizing dies NOT fully resizing a case has been around for a lot longer than glocks Have, being unable to fully resize military 5.56 and 7.62 brass has plagued reloaders for decades, if it's been shot out of a mil spec chamber the base is too wide to ever easily chamber in a non military ( .223 or .308 ) chamber. For this reason almost nobody barrels an ar15 or 7.62Ar with a commercial chamber. Even so the "bulge buster" dies are not universal since they don't make one for 9mm.

My basic problem with your post had more to do with falsely identifying glocks as having an "unsupported chamber" coupled with your admitted lack of ever having owned a glock and your lack of knowledge about how you were so able to identify glock brass.

Again folks ALL brass put through ANY auto pistol can bulge. Don't believe every Internet rumor about supposed problems that have long been debunked.

Or should I have let your post stand a truth?


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## BlueShoe

You as a normal citizen can not create a new, legal full auto firearm no matter what. They can be made for agencies, but it is illegal for the manufacturers to produce any new fully automatic firearms for the domestic public market. You can own those that existed before mid May of 1986 when Reagan signed the new gun control amendment to the National Firearms Act. Companies who dealt in them at the time were going full tilt to make as many as they could before the deadline. If you're a class III firearms FFL holder, you can own them as a dealer.


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## mojo4

Yeah ten but can you buy the parts anyway? Or do you need the class III permit just to buy the parts?


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## BlueShoe

They don't call it a permit, it's actually a tax. And you pay the tax when acquiring a "registered" and "transferable" full auto group/part or firearm. And those only exist for you and me if they were made prior to May 1986. That made the existing full auto stuff go up an incredible amount. You can manufacture short barreled rifles and suppressors and pay the tax and have it registered on new manufacture. 

Of course with any NFA item (full auto, suppressors, short barrel rifles) you have to go through the background checks and wait up to 4 months or more before you can even take possession. It has to stay with an SOT dealer until you clear. A normal Fed Firearms License holder can't possess NFA items either (unless he owns it and went through the same process as any owner). You have to have an SOT dealer for class III items to hold it while you clear. There's a different form for suppressors and SBRs. So some guy at a fun show can't have all the pieces to make a MG for sale (because it's a MG to the ATF) and a guy walking into a show could buy them all from different people without the seller breaking the law, but the buyer breaks it by possessing certain NFA items. AND he could be getting set up by the seller or those agents/informants watching the seller. Someone who set up at regional shows here was busted in Feb for supplying under-cover agents with those parts. The papers said he sold them a BUNCH of full auto firearms. It didn't say if they were the parts or actual MGs. They made buys for months.

On auto weapons, oddities exist, there are full auto parts that are legal to own, but you can't own some of them together. You can buy and own any one of the 9 full auto parts required to convert an M1 Carbine to M2. But you can't own 7 of those specific items at one time unless it's a transferable group. Possessing those 7 parts is possessing a MG, whether you own a rifle or not.

On registered full auto groups one piece is actually the registered item and it's stamped with a serial number and registered with the BATFE. Even though that one part isn't a machinegun, it is to the BATFE. You can't loan that piece to anyone either. You can only hand that $20 hunk of metal (which costs from $4K-$20K or more) to someone who is in your eye sight even if they own an identical registered full auto. If you stick it in your pocket to take to the store and back, you have to take the paperwork with you. Only an SOT can have possession if you don't and the paperwork has to go with it. 

In AR platform there are registered M16 receivers and drop in auto sears (DIAS). The auto sear is the registered part or the receiver is.

No new manufacture of full auto weapons to the public even though there are pieces out there that can comprise one. You can't legally have them all accumulated.
On the AK, I believe you can't have certain holes drilled in the receiver with certain pins installed, or you own a MG even without even owning the auto bolt carrier and trigger parts. I may be wrong, but I think you can own all the full auto stuff for an AK and since it's not been drilled or pinned for full auto, it might be legal.


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## mojo4

What a gigantic pain in the ass!! I guess I will stick to semi auto then. So I guess I gotta wait till after douchepocalypse hits to upgrade my roscoe!


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## Viking

Zonation, Sorry for my part of highjacking your posting. Hope you're able to get a chance to shoot a few different makes of handguns beyond Springfield or Glock as it helps keep buyers regret from happening. Even trying the three different grip inserts that came with my XDm it still doesn't help with pointing on target as does my Cougar which has the same grip as Beretta's, the 1911's do that for me as well. One thing I've noticed about the XDm is that even with a full magazine it feels nose heavy, but then going back nearly 40 years I've always liked the feel of steel framed 1911's. So basically I'm old school and probably out of date for those who like polymer framed pistols. The only reason I bought a semi auto is for CCW otherwise I'd be strapping on my Redhawk 44 mag, line up about 10 zombies and one bullet takes care of all.


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## Zonation

@Viking...it's cool man. I always love a great discussion. It's always a good way to increase your knowledge. I'm pretty sure that I'll end up buying a few different guns. I have been doing quite a bit of research on many guns, and like mojo I would trust a Glock if my life depended on it. 

And I also started stocking up in good ammo and shooting mostly the cheaper stuff.


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## Zonation

@radio477. Hi point...ummm....yeah. Let's not play devils advocate. I'll keep the title of Rambo and spend a little more for a Glock. Lol!!!


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## Zonation

Just went shopping for some of the cheaper ammo for my .9mm. Next is to load up on the good stuff.


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## mojo4

Did you get all soviet with the cheap stuff?? Remember, glocks like cheap dirty russians!!!


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## Zonation

Lol!!! Naw....I bought a few boxes of Federal American eagle. There was a sale on them. By the time I got to the store, there were only a few left.


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## Theriot

I'm looking to by my second hand gun. The one I have now is the judge. While fun to shoot and has its purpose, I am looking into a Barrera storm. If any has some why nots or why tos please inform. Thanks


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## Zonation

Never really looked at it. I've said that later I would like a Baretta, but that's after I buy either a Glock 22 or Xd .40.


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## Theriot

Couldn't wait bought the beretta storm today in 40 cal. Hoping to send some brass down range this weekend.


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## Sentry18

The Beretta PX4 is a good gun, but it uses a rotary barrel lock up design that is not known for long term durability. Just the same they do feel good in the hand and shoot well. I bought a C model (constant action, like a semi-cocked DAO) and really like it. If it was a little thinner I would consider putting it in my carry rotation. Currently Smith & Wesson makes all of my duty/carry guns and for good reason.

Of course I think the .40S&W is an answer to a question no one asked or needed to. But that's a _whole_ other thread.


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## LongRider

Sentry18 said:


> The Beretta PX4 is a good gun, but it uses a rotary barrel lock up design that is not known for long term durability.


Can you expound on that a bit please, as that is contrary to my understanding and experince. The rotating barrel is the same design as the Beretta Cougar (now Stoeger Cougar). Beyond making the gun inherently more accurate and an amazingly soft shooter with only the slightest muzzle rise for lightening fast spot on follow up shots. I have always thought one of the upsides of the rotating barrel design is that it has fewer moving parts and they move in such a way as to minimized wear. There is less umm impact or slamming of parts with a rotating barrel than with the tilt barrel design. Resulting it seems to me in greater durability. I have the Stoeger Cougar. It is such a soft shooter everyone loves that gun and as I said incredibly accurate. So it is shot a lot and I have not seen any evidence of excessive wear. Nor I have heard anything about lack of long term durability, so any info contrary to my experience would be of real interest to me. If you have links to your sources that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks



Viking said:


> Even trying the three different grip inserts that came with my XDm it still doesn't help with pointing on target as does my Cougar which has the same grip as Beretta's, the 1911's do that for me as well.


Another new one on me. Is the XDm grip angle different than the XD? Because one of the most common praises of the XD in review after review is that it is the same as the 1911. In fact being an old school 1911 guy myself, the 1911 like grip of my XD is one of the major attractions to it for me. As both have a very natural point of aim for me, so that I consistently hit what I point either at


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## Sentry18

There is a reason that most handgun manufacturers avoid the rotating barrel design, even though it has been around for a long time. The mechanisms involved are much more complex in operation than say a basic Browning tilt/recoil design and thus there is much more that can go wrong. Any debris in the cam area will quickly result in malfunctions. While the rotating barrel design is supposed to increase accuracy most people cannot shoot a handgun of any design to its potential anyway, so that is more of a marketing statement. Neither the PX4 or Cougar have achieved huge market success in the US. Not saying they are bad guns, I own one, but you don't see a lot of them in police holsters but I do see a lot of them "on sale" or in the clearance section of gun shops.

My agency tested the Beretta PX4 when the time came to retire our Glock 22's (we also tested the S&W M&P and Sig P250). When we evaluate a gun we buy 3 random samples from a local dealer. We then run each gun through a 3000-5000 round use & abuse test. When the results are in we contact at least 3 other LEA's who issue that gun and ask them if they are satisfied with them. We had mixed results with out sample PX4's and did not get good feedback from agencies who issue them (finding them was much harder than I though it would be too). Of our 3 guns, 1 started failing after 1000 rounds and suffered regular malfunctions until it was pulled. The other two completed the test but both needed to be kept very clean to run smoothly. The outside LEA's reported issues with guide rod breakage and mags not ejecting. They also reported our same findings with dirty guns becoming unreliable. My agency did not adopt the PX4 but I did buy one of the T&E guns and kept it for myself. I like it and shoot it often. And keep in my mind that we were testing duty guns, not guns being used for personal or home defense. 

By the way the P250 did not fair as well as the PX4 but both were out-shined by the M&P.


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## Theriot

Sentry18 said:


> There is a reason that most handgun manufacturers avoid the rotating barrel design, even though it has been around for a long time. The mechanisms involved are much more complex in operation than say a basic Browning tilt/recoil design and thus there is much more that can go wrong. Any debris in the cam area will quickly result in malfunctions. While the rotating barrel design is supposed to increase accuracy most people cannot shoot a handgun of any design to its potential anyway, so that is more of a marketing statement. Neither the PX4 or Cougar have achieved huge market success in the US. Not saying they are bad guns, I own one, but you don't see a lot of them in police holsters but I do see a lot of them "on sale" or in the clearance section of gun shops.
> 
> My agency tested the Beretta PX4 when the time came to retire our Glock 22's (we also tested the S&W M&P and Sig P250). When we evaluate a gun we buy 3 random samples from a local dealer. We then run each gun through a 3000-5000 round use & abuse test. When the results are in we contact at least 3 other LEA's who issue that gun and ask them if they are satisfied with them. We had mixed results with out sample PX4's and did not get good feedback from agencies who issue them (finding them was much harder than I though it would be too). Of our 3 guns, 1 started failing after 1000 rounds and suffered regular malfunctions until it was pulled. The other two completed the test but both needed to be kept very clean to run smoothly. The outside LEA's reported issues with guide rod breakage and mags not ejecting. They also reported our same findings with dirty guns becoming unreliable. My agency did not adopt the PX4 but I did buy one of the T&E guns and kept it for myself. I like it and shoot it often. And keep in my mind that we were testing duty guns, not guns being used for personal or home defense.
> 
> By the way the P250 did not fair as well as the PX4 but both were out-shined by the M&P.


Great info. To late for me but I now know to keep it clean. If any mods are looking in I am also part of an electrical forum and we have a thanks button by the edit one. It helps for when we see someone give a good reply or a great answer just to say thanks for the info and it post a little thank with your name by the post. Just an idea because I sure would have given him a thanks.


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## Sentry18

Thanks. I'm sure your PX4 will serve you well. In all fairness mine (the former T&E gun) was beaten like a rented mule, thrown on the ground, buried in sand, dipped in mud, run dry, not cleaned often and otherwise neglected. And after it was retired I cleaned & lubricated it thoroughly and am still shooting it. Will it still be shooting after say 20,000 rounds? We'll see. There are not a lot of PX4's or Cougar's out there that have been pushed passed that mark. Then again sans LEO's and competition shooters there are not a lot of people out there trying too.


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## LincTex

Theriot said:


> a thanks button by the edit one. It helps for when we see someone give a good reply or a great answer just to say thanks for the info


We have it here.... it is to the far left of the QUOTE button and looks like a







with the words "Like This Post" after it. You won't see it if using an Apple product, it seems.


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## Theriot

LincTex said:


> We have it here.... it is to the far left of the QUOTE button and looks like a with the words "Like This Post" after it. You won't see it if using an Apple product, it seems.


Yea nothing on the iPad and phone damn apple


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## Sentry18

Apple is very insecure and doesn't want you liking anything else.


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## LongRider

LincTex said:


> We have it here.... it is to the far left of the QUOTE button and looks like a
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> with the words "Like This Post" after it. You won't see it if using an Apple product, it seems.


I have it on my Mac, these forums operate pretty much the same on one platform as the other



Sentry18 said:


> Apple is very insecure and doesn't want you liking anything else.


That is why PC magazine says that the PC industry is defined by keeping up with Apple. 
The first real Personal Computer
a GUI (graphic User Interface as imitated by windows)
the mouse
color monitors
Internet was designed on a Mac
wireless
MP3 player aka iPod
Smart Phone

Sorry died in the wool Mac guy here, that resents that Bill Gates became so success as a direct result of betraying friendship and stealing.


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## Sentry18

I love my iPhone, iPod and iPad. Would not give them up. Had a Macbook Pro and was not impressed at all with the OS or functionality, went back to an HP laptop and Win7. Too each his own.


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## Theriot

Here is an example. Notice the thanks under the post.


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## LincTex

On here it will say "LincTex likes this post", but after two or more it just says "Two people like this post" but doesn't say who.


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## Sentry18

It will if you hover your mouse pointer over the "Two people like this post". Give it a second and it will pop up.


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## LongRider

Sentry18 said:


> There is a reason that most handgun manufacturers avoid the rotating barrel design.


My understanding is that when Beretta first came out with its rotating barrel design it was toted as revolutionary and innovative much sought after and anticipated. Yes I know there was one previous rotating barrel design prior as I recall that did not meet with much success. But at the time Beretta was coming out with its rotating barrel it was considered a new concept and design. People were standing in line waiting for it. The problem was it was announced years before it actually went into production, people got tired of waiting and than when it did. It came out right after the first Glock..... Well Glock sales smoked them and the polymer gun took center stage. It's $800 price tag way back than did not help when the newest coolest thing out there, Glock was selling for about a third of the price. Beretta's Cougar faded into the background. Beretta went back to the drawing board, eventually the Cougar was handed off to Beretta's subsidiary Stoeger who can produce the exact same gun for much less and has been gaining some popularity. In fairness other gun manufactures are not using Beretta's rotating barrel design because Beretta holds the patent



Sentry18 said:


> I love my iPhone, iPod and iPad. Would not give them up. Had a Macbook Pro and was not impressed at all with the OS or functionality, went back to an HP laptop and Win7. Too each his own.


There was study awhile back and it seems that we don't like change much so whatever OS you learned on tends to be the one people stick with. That said more people switch to Mac than to windows if they do change.

BTW to be clear I am not saying any of this to be contrary or antagonistic. I actually like most of your posts and do appreciate your insights and input



Sentry18 said:


> It will if you hover your mouse pointer over the "Two people like this post". Give it a second and it will pop up.


true that, its how it works on my Mac too


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## Sentry18

Browning invented and patented the rotary barrel lock up design. The first gun made with that system was the Browning 1897. Years later Steyr came out with their own rotating barrel pistol, the Steyr-Hahn. You could even get the Steyr-Hahn in full auto. Colt bought the Browning patents and chose not to produce a rotary barrel gun at the time but did so many years later with the Colt 2000 All American (which was a commercial failure). Savage, Mauser, Cz, Obregon, ASAI and MAB all made rotating barrel pistols. Currently the only manufacturers I am aware of that are making a gun of that design besides Beretta/Stoeger is Grand Power and Boberg. GP makes a model called the K-100 which is imported by STI. Boberg makes a subcompact called the XR-9. The rotating barrel action has been out a long time with many adaptations, but none have been what I would call great commercial successes. The PX4 will likely go down as the best of the breed.

And you're dead on about the "whatever OS you learned on" stuff. I never touched a computer until college and Win 3.1 came out just in time for my first real job. I am afraid I am going to be a Windows person until they invent the direct cerebral interface. Shouldn't be too long now.


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## Zonation

Theriot said:


> Couldn't wait bought the beretta storm today in 40 cal. Hoping to send some brass down range this weekend.


That's awesome!! Beretta's are sweet. It must be nice to buy a gun on Wednesday and shoot it that weekend. I have to wait 10 days. Please post your thoughts on your new gun after you shoot it.


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## Zonation

It's amazing how this particular forum has evolved.


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## Zonation

Here's my new baby!!!


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## LincTex

Zonation said:


> Here's my new baby!!!


Now you just need some double stack mags stashed...


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## Sentry18

Congrats. Looks like a fine gun. Do you live in a Socialist state that restricts you to 10 rounders?


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## Zonation

LincTex said:


> Now you just need some double stack mags stashed...


I'm with you on that one bud.


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## Zonation

Sentry18 said:


> Congrats. Looks like a fine gun. Do you live in a Socialist state that restricts you to 10 rounders?


Unfortunately I do live In the socialist state of Hellifornia, that limits me to only 10 round mags. That's why I bought a couple of extra mags. And some hollow points.


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## LincTex

Zonation said:


> I'm with you on that one bud.


A good excuse to visit a gun shop on an out of state trip. You can't even hardly buy "ten-rounders" around here.... there is no market for them.

Can "private sellers" legally ship double-stacks to you? I don't see why not.

Are they legal to keep in a safe if you don't use them for "regular carry"?


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## Turtle

In Maryland, I know it is illegal to buy or sell rifle mags of greater than 20 rounds , but you CAN own them.


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## Halfway

I have a Springfield XDm .40 after much comparison with Glock .40's.

Spend the money on the Springfield if you can.


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## mojo4

My love of glocks is well posted here. Another reason why.... I was at the range and the range officer found a broken guide rod but nobody knew who it belonged to. After the range session was over and people were breaking down the guns for cleaning a guy using a glock 19 found his rod was the broken one. Nice to own a gun that even when a part breaks you don't find out till the shooting is done. Reason #378 why glocks are the best! At least IMHO! Ok sentry, your turn to promote S&W!! BTW, sentry, your raiders are going down hard tomorrow!! Wanna put a friendly bet on it?? Maybe a nice box of hollow points? Or a Magus homemade klingon death mallet?


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## Sentry18

If Gaston peed into a cup you would drink it and call it holy water.  

I don't dislike Glock, I just don't place them on an alter or pretend that are better than other guns. As a Glock armorer I can assure you they do break and they do malfunction. Especially the Gen4's (i.e. Gaston's F.U. to the world). But you're right I do love me some S&W. However the handgun I shoot the best is the Beretta 92G. Carried one for 4 years on duty and with 3 qualifications a year I never missed once; perfect score on 12 qualifications in a row. I fondle it often and have even considered requesting permission to carry it again.

And you are obviously crazy if you think that the Denver Donkey's are going to win tomorrow! Peyton will probably fall down with a broken neck in the 1st quarter. Especially since your offensive line apparently forgot how to block. I will however admit that the Oakland secondary is looking more than a little bleak this year. Is there such thing as a friendly bet? I say the loser has to put an Obama sign in their front lawn for a week. No wait, that is just cruel.


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## mojo4

Sentry you have officially gone over the line!! I would rather burn my grass with a big Romney symbol though......


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## Sentry18

A big Romney symbol? You mean like this:


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## LincTex

Sentry18 said:


> However the handgun I shoot the best is the Beretta 92G.


Hmmm....had to look that one up. 
Interesting: decocker, no safety.


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## Sentry18

Yep, the lever just pops back up so no accidental safety engagement. Plus it has a slightly beefier slide (called the Brigadier slide) than the 92FS. Heavier slide not only means stronger but a tad less muzzle flip.


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## Sentry18

:surrender: 
Crap. I guess the weak Oakland secondary was even worse than I thought. Congrats mojo4 on the win. For this entire week I will concede that Denver has the better team. Of course we WILL meet again, so after this week it is all Raider Nation baby. Win, lose or tie: Raiders 'til we die!


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## Zonation

Well heck...since we're talking about football, Go PATRIOTS!!!!!


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## Zonation

LincTex said:


> A good excuse to visit a gun shop on an out of state trip. You can't even hardly buy "ten-rounders" around here.... there is no market for them.
> 
> Can "private sellers" legally ship double-stacks to you? I don't see why not.
> 
> Are they legal to keep in a safe if you don't use them for "regular carry"?


Private sellers shipping to me is a great question. I have no idea. I guess if I ever leave the state I'll purchase some 15 rounders.


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## Zonation

Halfway said:


> I have a Springfield XDm .40 after much comparison with Glock .40's.
> 
> Spend the money on the Springfield if you can.


I am. As in my earlier posts, I'm going to get an Xd in .40 cal. Maybe before or after an Ar-15. Not to sure. I have to finish the mods on my mossberg.


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## Hoze928

Picked up the Springfield XDS .45 a couple weeks ago and my official review is WOW I have a new favorite. This baby kicks less then my XD 9mm compact and is smaller Springfield done good.


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## LongRider

Hoze928 said:


> Picked up the Springfield XDS .45 a couple weeks ago and my official review is WOW I have a new favorite. This baby kicks less then my XD 9mm compact and is smaller Springfield done good.


I have yet to get my hands on a XDS .45. Would love to see how one shoots. Am thinking it would be a good option to carrying my XD.45 compact. Or carry it as a back up when I am in thug land in case I need to fight my way to the car for the AR. Though to be honest with 10+ 1 HST in the gun and two spare mags of 13 rounds of HST in each I have never felt under gunned. I mean seriously if I can not solve any problem that arises with that I am in way over my head in the wrong gun fight


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## Zonation

For anyone that wants a Glock, Turners is having a great sale on them.


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## Zonation

Just went out today to shoot my Glock. Love the gun. Put about 200 rounds through it flawlessly.


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## recon-1

What model did you get?


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## Zonation

recon-1 said:


> What model did you get?


Glock 19.


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## recon-1

3rd gen? Or the 4th gen?


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## Zonation

recon-1 said:


> 3rd gen? Or the 4th gen?


Sorry dude...3rd gen. I got it slightly used and in excellent condition.


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## mojo4

Zonation said:


> Sorry dude...3rd gen. I got it slightly used and in excellent condition.


Lemme guess....... never fired and only dropped once?? BTW, I found a new concealed carry setup. Its called versacarry and it is the oddest looking thing ever! I can't even call it a holster but I ordered one and will let you guys know how it goes. The video is pretty neat.


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## Zonation

@mojo...who really knows dude. The best thing is that it's works great and I saved $$$. Let us know about the conceal carry...item. Lol.


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## Zonation

So today, I went to a local gun show and couldn't even fine parking. There was a stupid harvest festival at the fairgrounds as well. Pissed me off. And I can't go tomorrow because of football and other plans. Oh well. Maybe next time.


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## recon-1

3rd gen is the best.


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## Zonation

recon-1 said:


> 3rd gen is the best.


Heck yeah. Finally cleaned it for the first time.


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## DJgang

Been thinking about getting my husband a "smart carry" holster.

http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/accessories/deep-concealment-face-off-smartcarry-vs-thunderwear/


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## Zonation

DJgang said:


> Been thinking about getting my husband a "smart carry" holster.
> 
> http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/accessories/deep-concealment-face-off-smartcarry-vs-thunderwear/


Looks pretty cool. If you get it, let us know how he likes it. To bad I'm in Hellifornia. I would love to conceal carry but it's nearly impossible here.


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## Sentry18

> Originally Posted by DJgang
> Been thinking about getting my husband a "smart carry" holster.


Just an FYI that they are slow to draw from and I (*bet I am not alone on this*) DO NOT like the idea of a loaded and chambered pistol pointing at my man parts. An negligent discharge could keep me from ever having another _discharge_! :eyebulge:


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## DJgang

Zonation said:


> Looks pretty cool. If you get it, let us know how he likes it. To bad I'm in Hellifornia. I would love to conceal carry but it's nearly impossible here.


I will. I have just a plain Mike's inside holster, soft black fabric, I put on my hip side and wear a large tshirt. Cant tell. I don't carry on my person except when I go to a larger city, otherwise, it's under the seat in my car.


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## DJgang

Sentry18 said:


> Just an FYI that they are slow to draw from and I (*bet I am not alone on this*) DO NOT like the idea of a loaded and chambered pistol pointing at my man parts. An negligent discharge could keep me from ever having another _discharge_! :eyebulge:


True, thought of that, might be just an occasional wear. He has a good leather one but it protrudes horribly. Thought about getting him a shoulder but he rarely wears his sports coat inside. I don't know....

We got some things going on with the business and I would just like him to carry on person more, we do have open carry but his business partners may not like that idea.


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## PipLogan

Sentry I agree, plus with the Glocks u don't have a safety


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## Sentry18

Shoulder holster, crotch holsters and even appendix carry holsters have a lot of limitations. I would recommend a pocket holster with a sub-compact (S&W j frame, Ruger LCP, etc.) or a good IWB holster. I often carry a full size S&W M&P 9mm or a Beretta 92G in a Raven Concealment IWB and it just disappears.


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## recon-1

Have one of these for my Glock-19. Works great.
http://www.fobusholster.com/products/GLOCK_17_19_22_23_31_32_34_35_ROTO_HOLSTER_PADDLE-876-21.html


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## prepare_survive_thrive

mojo4 said:


> Goose I gotta agree with the powerlifting hamster guy! A glock is way cheaper than a xdm and I don't really like the grip safety anyway. But that's my personal preference only. As far as reliability the glock is unmatched. I've owned numerous glocks and all they do is work. Every time. Completely awesome!!


And a s&w m&p is cheaper than both...feels better...and is said to be just as durable as a glock.


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## Zonation

I really didn't like the feel of the S&P. Quality looked a little sub par but it's still a S&W. As good as they come.


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## Turtle

Zonation said:


> I really didn't like the feel of the S&P. Quality looked a little sub par but it's still a S&W. As good as they come.


See, I really didn't like the feel of the XD. It feels too square to me. Glocks feel okay, but the S&W just feels the best to me.


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## Turtle

The best IWB concealment holster that I have found is the Crossbreed. It's pricey, but it totally fulfills every requirement of a good IWB holster. I also have a Bianchi IWB that is a little smaller which I use pretty often, but it does print more than the Crossbreed.


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## LongRider

Sentry18 said:


> An negligent discharge could keep me from ever having another _discharge_! :eyebulge:


Or shooting blanks, which may not be a bad thing at our age. Of course there are less painful ways to get fixed. Like having the wife get fixed instead


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## CothPetrichor

I am not a fan of Glock's grip


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## Boomy

CothPetrichor said:


> I am not a fan of Glock's grip


X2
I was a a gun show last week and picked up an XD. Felt a lot better than my old G17.


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## LongRider

CothPetrichor said:


> I am not a fan of Glock's grip


Which is why God gave us XD's and 1911's. There is no one gun fits all


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## jsriley5

Ya know I always thought a gun maker would be ahead of the game to make a pistol with a grip area barely big enough for the mag to slip in then send it with a epoxy putty wrap for it so you could put it on squeeze a comfortable grip let it set up slip it off send it in and have a perfecty fitted grip sent to put on your pistol. Perhaps I should develope it myself and get the idea patented.


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## Sentry18

I have seen that done with the S&W M&P. Remove the grip adapter and the remaining "grip" makes the Browning Hi-Power look wide and fat. Take some marine epoxy and build it up until you have an extremely slim and ergonomic grip.


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## jsriley5

Well there ya go you just couldn't wait to torpedo my boat couldja


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## Dakine

Sentry18 said:


> I have seen that done with the S&W M&P. Remove the grip adapter and the remaining "grip" makes the Browning Hi-Power look wide and fat. Take some marine epoxy and build it up until you have an extremely slim and ergonomic grip.


Or if they shipped them with something like this, it would be a big improvement too! http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1960130485/command-arms-upg47-modular-pistol-grip-kit-ak-47-ak-74-galil-century-golani-sporter-polymer


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## Sentry18

I was talking M&P pistols not rifles, but that is an interesting grip. Here's a pic of one being modded.


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## jsriley5

hey does that guy know his trigger is broken


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## Dakine

oh I know, I was just using that as an example because it's a really good picture of how easy it would be for them to at least offer some measure of ergonomic customization without great expense. Heck with their resources they might even come up with something a lot better.

I wonder how that epoxy build up would take a soldering iron reapplying the stippling? I read an interesting DIY article in Recoil magazine that showed how to do that. It was a cool mag but I think they only published a few editions 

I cant find them anywhere at local stores, need to look them up and see if they are still in biz...


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## LincTex

CothPetrichor said:


> I am not a fan of Glock's grip


I had to sand mine a fair bit until it felt good to my hand. 
I haven't added any epoxy anywhere, but I guess I could. It's OK though.


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## arack

Both are solid guns, but glock is still have some problems with ejecting brass into the face of the user.


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## TNFrank

I have a Glock G19 and I love it. I did have a SA/XD45, trigger pull felt longer then I liked and the striker retaining pins are prone to breakage. No such problems with Glock. Lots of Aftermarket parts, 65% of law enforcement uses Glocks so you've a ready supply of parts and going 9x19mm you'll have plenty of ammo choices to pick from, none of which are as expensive as other handgun calibers. 
Didn't read the entire thread but if you've not made up your mind yet go Glock and don't look back.


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## Sentry18

65% of cops used Glocks at their peak. That number is less now days. Maybe 50-55%. But as other manufacturers like Smith & Wesson, H&K, Walther, FN, etc. have all learned the secret to marketing success in law enforcement the numbers will continue to drop. But indeed there are still a lot of Glocks out there and part / accessories are readily available. I think Glock really shot themselves in the foot, so to speak, When they brought the GEN4 out early and it was clearly not ready.


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## recon-1

Sentry18 said:


> 65% of cops used Glocks at their peak. That number is less now days. Maybe 50-55%. But as other manufacturers like Smith & Wesson, H&K, Walther, FN, etc. have all learned the secret to marketing success in law enforcement the members will continue to drop. But indeed there are still a lot of Glocks out there and part / accessories are readily available. I think Glock really shot themselves in the foot, so to speak, When they brought the GEN4 out early and it was clearly not ready.


Agree totally! Why screw up a good thing.


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## munik

Does XD have 33 rounders? I don't think so


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## TNFrank

munik said:


> Does XD have 33 rounders? I don't think so


Also you can pick up Glock mags for $23 bucks each for Factory Mags, XD mags cost quite a bit more.


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## Sentry18

33 round mags in a pistol is like putting a bayonet on a pistol; looks good in zombie movies but is hardly practical in real life. Pistols are for concealed carry and fighting your way to a long gun.


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## TNFrank

I run Glock G17, 17+2 mags in my G19. That gives me 19+1 rounds of 9x19mm goodness, more then enough for those "bump in the night" times.


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## prepare_survive_thrive

Sentry18 said:


> 65% of cops used Glocks at their peak. That number is less now days. Maybe 50-55%. But as other manufacturers like Smith & Wesson, H&K, Walther, FN, etc. have all learned the secret to marketing success in law enforcement the numbers will continue to drop. But indeed there are still a lot of Glocks out there and part / accessories are readily available. I think Glock really shot themselves in the foot, so to speak, When they brought the GEN4 out early and it was clearly not ready.


Dont get me wrong I love the way the m&p feels but...yes our county sheriffs switched to m&p over glocks but are now switching back due to rusting in the southern humidity . I truely dont care for the way a glock feels in hand but you just cant beat that record. M&P feels great but the longer they have been out the more negative reports I hear...so it will be a glock 22 for me and my wife


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## Sentry18

The only M&P's that had rusting issues were the Gen 1's back about 6-7 years ago before they upgraded to a thicker melonite coating. The negative reports you hear are likely Glock fan-boys afraid that they have been out "perfection"ed by S&W. I hear them too but have never had anyone able to produce any issues or demonstrate a bad gun first hand. When S&W first came to use they gave us a demo gun that we beat to death. Now my unit is running several dozen M&P's as part of a 3 year test & evaluation. So far they have exceeded every expectation with approx. 12,000 rounds down range, 2 winter shoots, 2 separate torture tests and I don't know how many hours riding in leather (per gun of course). Well, every expectation except one. Out of all the guns 3 had rough triggers and required some polishing by an armorer, but that was it. We did the same test with Glock 22's and put several out of commission in 3 years. Mostly cracked frames, slides and broken strikers. They guns started falling apart around the 15k round mark and were returned to Glock Inc just before they started working on the Gen4 redesign. Which was done to try and correct the inherent weaknesses of using a 9mm frame/slide that was just quickly redesigned to shoot the .40S&W. To be fair we pushed our Glock 17's past the 50,000 round mark back in the late 1990's & early 2000's and retired everyone of them as good working service pistols. I wish we would have kept them for another 6 years. Would have saved our armorers a whole lot of grief.


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## prepare_survive_thrive

Sentry18 said:


> The only M&P's that had rusting issues were the Gen 1's back about 6-7 years ago before they upgraded to a thicker melonite coating. The negative reports you hear are likely Glock fan-boys afraid that they have been out "perfection"ed by S&W. I hear them too but have never had anyone able to produce any issues or demonstrate a bad gun first hand. When S&W first came to use they gave us a demo gun that we beat to death. Now my unit is running several dozen M&P's as part of a 3 year test & evaluation. So far they have exceeded every expectation with approx. 12,000 rounds down range, 2 winter shoots, 2 separate torture tests and I don't know how many hours riding in leather (per gun of course). Well, every expectation except one. Out of all the guns 3 had rough triggers and required some polishing by an armorer, but that was it. We did the same test with Glock 22's and put several out of commission in 3 years. Mostly cracked frames, slides and broken strikers. They guns started falling apart around the 15k round mark and were returned to Glock Inc just before they started working on the Gen4 redesign. Which was done to try and correct the inherent weaknesses of using a 9mm frame/slide that was just quickly redesigned to shoot the .40S&W. To be fair we pushed our Glock 17's past the 50,000 round mark back in the late 1990's & early 2000's and retired everyone of them as good working service pistols. I wish we would have kept them for another 6 years. Would have saved our armorers a whole lot of grief.


That's just not what im hearing from my friends on the force. They said they like them but are switching because of rust issues on the slide and the guide rod of recently purchased m&p. I do hope they were mistaken.


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## LincTex

TNFrank said:


> Also you can pick up Glock mags for $23 bucks each for Factory Mags, XD mags cost quite a bit more.


Milr-Surp M9 mags are all over the place for ~$5 for you guys with Beretta 92's. File the notch a bit and they work just fine in a Taurus PT92.

Academy had the blued Taurus PT92 BF (BF = Black Friday?) with one 17rd and one 19rd mag (extended base) for $329 a couple weeks ago. Not a shabby deal.


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## LincTex

TNFrank said:


> Also you can pick up Glock mags for $23 bucks each for Factory Mags, XD mags cost quite a bit more.


Well, I'll be dipped. I learn something new everyday.
Yes Virginia, you can use M-9 mags in a XD9 (with mods)
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/sa-xd-...29-yes-virginia-you-can-use-m-9-mags-xd9.html


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## Sentry18

> They said they like them but are switching because of rust issues on the slide and the guide rod of recently purchased m&p.


Let them know you should not store their guns in buckets of salt water every night and then leave them outside in the hot sun all day.


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## gitnready4it

I have a glock 23 gen 4 and love it. One of my buddies has the XD and loves it. I have shot both and don't think you can go wrong with either. Just get the one you like best and happy shooting!


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## Startingout-Blair

I recently had a chance to shoot the Glock 21 PR (i think that's what the two letter were). It is a thin model .45cal and I was really impressed! I gotta get one! Very little kick


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## Sentry18

I am guessing you mean Glock 21SF (short frame or slim frame depending on who you ask). Yeah, the G21 is a very soft shooter. More of a whoomp and a push instead of a kick and snap.


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## LongRider

gitnready4it said:


> I have a glock 23 gen 4 and love it. One of my buddies has the XD and loves it. I have shot both and don't think you can go wrong with either. Just get the one you like best and happy shooting!


Amazing how many can not grasp that concept and find it necessary to berate other guns to validate their choice.



Sentry18 said:


> 33 round mags in a pistol is like putting a bayonet on a pistol; looks good in zombie movies but is hardly practical in real life. Pistols are for concealed carry and fighting your way to a long gun.


True that. Though a 33 round mag in a handgun does make a statement, not one I'd want to make about myself.


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## Sentry18

If that 33 round mag makes a statement, this thing must scream and shout.


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## jsriley5

Yeah that even look retarded on the picture they use. but I have to admit if I could afford one I"d have one for everything I could get one for.


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## Boomy

jsriley5 said:


> Yeah that even look retarded on the picture they use. but I have to admit if I could afford one I"d have one for everything I could get one for.


I don't know about retarded as much as "rainbow coalition"
Almost get the feeling that the designer may have had some latent tendencies by the looks of the pictures?


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## Jarhead0311

A Glock is the AK of pistols. I'm not real crazy about AK's or Glocks but I own both....why? because they fire every time you pull the trigger, every time.


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## LongRider

Sentry18 said:


> If that 33 round mag makes a statement, this thing must scream and shout.


Sure does can't ya hear them praying? Hope I can spray enough rounds down range to hit something


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## Sentry18

> I'm not real crazy about AK's or Glocks but I own both....why? because they fire every time you pull the trigger, every time.


Unless they break or run out of ammo, like most guns. I agree that Glocks are a very reliable gun. But there is a reason why there are certified Glock Armorers ALL over this country and why you can buy replacement parts at dozens of retailers. No machine is perfect. No machine is infallible.


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## Glock4myEMT

Both great firearms! Glock has less parts and simpler is the way to go. Glock can be completely taken down with one tool, size of a ball point pen. Glock is the way to go and you will be happy. I depend my life on mine. Good luck!


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