# The Sunshine State on Solar Power.



## readytogo (Apr 6, 2013)

Well finally after years of planning and talking a new solar power plant is going up, maybe there is hope after all 8 plants are expected to go online next year and maybe better tax laws will give the home owners a better deal too,
too bad for coal .
http://saintpetersblog.com/fpl-add-another-1500-megawatts-solar-next-seven-years/


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

Electric companies add solar only because they are forced to do so. Solar is a very poor and expensive source of electric power.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

I think solar has a lot of potential. Especially in states like Florida. Its not quite to the point of being viable yet but I look forward to advancements in the field.

Dont think large solar power plants are going to be necessary. Too easy to do supplemental solar energy on a home by home basis now. Dont know if anyone has been keeping up with Teslas new solar shingle roof.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a25819/you-can-buy-teslas-solar-shingles-next-month/

Here is a video





Supposedly cheaper than putting on a normal roof.


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

CrackbottomLouis said:


> I think solar has a lot of potential. Especially in states like Florida. Its not quite to the point of being viable yet but I look forward to advancements in the field.
> 
> Dont think large solar power plants are going to be necessary. Too easy to do supplemental solar energy on a home by home basis now. Dont know if anyone has been keeping up with Teslas new solar shingle roof.
> 
> ...


I have yet to figure out why it has to be one type (fossil) verse the other (renewable) type. Here is a novel concept, place a 50 cent tax on every barrel of oil or ton of coal and then use the revenue to fund a residential Solar installation lottery. Let the one type of fuel fund the other type but at least make them pay for each other. I don't want the government picking winner or losers. Fossil fuel will eventually be replaced by renewable fuels but why waste what we have, sell it while it has a value.

The world has never run out of any fuel source, once one type becomes too expensive, another takes it's place. Whales can still provide oil but nobody is running out to buy whale oil.

In most states, an entire roof covered in solar should provide all the electricity for an entire family's power needs. The problem is going to be the utility companies, not the technological development. We can't fix the environmental problems by sacrificing our economy but we can improve both by utilizing both types of fuels and the current world market. JMHO


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

The average solar system only produces power about 1/3 (or less) of the time. Solar can NEVER replace all other power sources for that simple reason.


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

hiwall said:


> The average solar system only produces power about 1/3 (or less) of the time. Solar can NEVER replace all other power sources for that simple reason.


Hiwall, I think you are basing your calculations on the current power inefficiencies. Could a 4000 square foot solar roof provide enough electrical power for a typical family of 4? We already have off grid homes, the real question is the solar roof tile efficiency and the amount of sun hitting the entire roof, not just a few panels. Battery storage also plays a critical part but all is feasible.

A free market is going to push development and increase in solar efficiency upward. The majority of our oil, coal and natural gas is going to be exported, as we decrease our dependency on fossil fuel. We need to utilize all our fuel sources and grow our economy. The rest of the world is not going to be able to give up the fossil fuels and as long as we have it, we should export and continue moving away from fossil. If fossil is causing Global Warming, so be it. Ruining our economy while the rest of the world continues to burn fossil is just plain stupid.


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## AmmoSgt (Apr 13, 2014)

hiwall said:


> Electric companies add solar only because they are forced to do so. Solar is a very poor and expensive source of electric power.


Not really The Coal Mining Museum in Kentucky just switched to solar power to cut it's utility bill .. they plan on saving $8000-10000 a year

http://www.post-gazette.com/powerso...cky-switches-solar-power/stories/201704060184


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## AmmoSgt (Apr 13, 2014)

hiwall said:


> The average solar system only produces power about 1/3 (or less) of the time. Solar can NEVER replace all other power sources for that simple reason.


my solar system supplies electricity 24/7, just takes some batteries and it has not only paid for itself in about 5 years ( my grid is TVA ) but it continues to save me about $120-$160 a month, more in the spring and fall, less in the summer and winter when I use the heat pump more .. but on average roughly ~$1500- $2000 a year. Add distilled water ( 4 maybe 5 bucks a month) to the batteries every month or so.

And I charge up all sorts of small batteries off of it everything from AAA and CR 123's to portable power packs for jumpstarting cars or running appliances at remote locations or in the grid half of the house when power goes down ...

I'm saving the savings now to double the size of my solar system .. and for those amused by the term "solar system" yes .. it is true.. I have named my solar panels after planets and in my solar system Pluto is still a planet, along with some of the larger moons of Jupiter and Saturn if/when I double it, I may have to start using named asteroids or minor moons .


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

People can and do go off-grid. It is much cheaper to be on-grid. 
Batteries are a very poor storage median for electric power but it is all we have. The best batteries are using 100 year old technology. 
I never said that solar panels could not produce power because obviously they do. But on average the best case is producing power only about 1/3 of the time. Because of this most of the time you must rely on batteries or some other source of power. For a home it is lead-acid storage batteries along with a back-up generator.
A complete off-grid system can not pay for itself compared to on-grid power. Does off-grid work? Of course, its just way more expensive.
I don't care when people on their own decide to go off-grid and buy their own solar system. But when my electric company is forced by our government to erect solar systems to provide a certain percentage of their power even though it makes that power produced cost much more than a conventional power generating system it does bother me because the electric company then has to charge me more money. 
When solar power becomes cheaper than other power generating systems everyone will change to it without any forced inducement, or taxpayer funded rebates.


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## tmttactical (Nov 23, 2015)

hiwall said:


> People can and do go off-grid. It is much cheaper to be on-grid.
> Batteries are a very poor storage median for electric power but it is all we have. The best batteries are using 100 year old technology.
> I never said that solar panels could not produce power because obviously they do. But on average the best case is producing power only about 1/3 of the time. Because of this most of the time you must rely on batteries or some other source of power. For a home it is lead-acid storage batteries along with a back-up generator.
> A complete off-grid system can not pay for itself compared to on-grid power. Does off-grid work? Of course, its just way more expensive.
> ...


I agree completely regarding government forcing anybody or any corporation to buy into renewable fuels. So at one point we agree. I suggested we set up a Solar lottery and slowly be surely move as many residential units to solar power systems with appropriate backup systems. Applying a very small surtax on each barrel, cubic foot or ton of fuel exported would provide the incentive for commercial improvements in solar technology. Basic the premise is sell these fuels while they have a strong commercial value and will benefit he American people. JMHO


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## readytogo (Apr 6, 2013)

I think that if the Sun can be harness, why not, if the technology is out there why not use it.
Solar power by country
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_by_country
Wave power
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_power


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## AmmoSgt (Apr 13, 2014)

oops posted in the wrong thread :dunno:


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## Onebigelf (Sep 17, 2011)

tmttactical said:


> Here is a novel concept, place a 50 cent tax on every barrel of oil or ton of coal and then use the revenue to fund a residential Solar installation lottery. .... I don't want the government picking winner or losers. JMHO


I don't think this means what you think it does...

I do agree with the basic idea. A diversified power production system is the way to go. Distributed power production is an advantage over centralized production and an expensive distribution system. Even just 1000 watts of solar on 25-30% of homes and businesses would replace a lot of current and future power plant needs.

John


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

The biggest detriment to widespread solar use is it isnt convenient. People want to flip a switch not maintain batteries. The solar shingle roof seems to be pretty convenient. One or 2 large household batteries with low maintenance, low cost and aesthetically pleasing seems a good combo. Its certainly not going to be the single answer for power needs to all homes but as part of a diversified energy system I think it makes sense. I dont have any problem at all with fossil fuels but if I needed a new roof right now I would be considering it to supplement my daytime power needs.


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## bbqjoe (Feb 10, 2017)

I'm just worried that if everyone gets on solar power, it will deplete the sun!


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

bbqjoe said:


> I'm just worried that if everyone gets on solar power, it will deplete the sun!


You joke now but I cant wait till some hot air bag on tv actually suggests something that dumb

I am also wondering how our gov will justify taxing the sunlight we use


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

CrackbottomLouis said:


> You joke now but I cant wait till some hot air bag on tv actually suggests something that dumb
> 
> I am also wondering how our gov will justify taxing the sunlight we use


Through solar panels systems buy making a home owners put a black box on it lol


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

90% of those with the solar panels on the roof are grid-tied systems and they have no power at all if the grid goes down for any reason.


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## readytogo (Apr 6, 2013)

bbqjoe said:


> I'm just worried that if everyone gets on solar power, it will deplete the sun!


Oh oh the day that happens we will really have a SHTF situation don`t you think.


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## phideaux (Nov 7, 2015)

Where I am right now in my quest to be independent is...

I can run at least 50%( conservatively) of my needs off solar charged battery power/per day.

If the sun is blocked for more than 24 hrs , I start cutting back, more than 2 days and I really cut back. 
I have seen it go over a week with clouds and no sun...
Then I have to diversify , and turn on the LP powered generator until the sun returns.

You might have to have batteries the size of a small barn to go 7 days without charging...

If I had the finances to increase my solar/battery capacity , I would, ( and I will) 
But still remain diversified. LP and firewood.


Jim


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## readytogo (Apr 6, 2013)

The idea here is that is not about dependency is about learning not to waste ,haven`t you notice the lights on in a sunny day everywhere ,parking lots ,highways ,homes ,business ,etc. ,we need to stop this waste ,I had people tell me that they pay for it or is my money or who cares is also about the ignorance of people ,why not used the technology if is there ,we have gone a long way from fire we can all learn after all not everybody is going to buy a solar system but the lines are overhead so it doesn't matter if power comes from the sun or sea or nuclear ,what really matters is the saving.


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## bbqjoe (Feb 10, 2017)

But, but, but what if everyone has solar panels pointed at the sun?

I'm afraid all the reflection might burn the sun out. 

Then we won't be able to grow corn to turn into fuel so that we can plant more corn.
And where will we get more dinosaurs to turn into fossil fuel?

We're gonna be so screwed.


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

I'm still trying to figure out how they get the paper through the telephone wire when you fax. :what:


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

Caribou said:


> Many people quit before they get the battery bank. They use the grid as their battery. It doesn't make much sense to me but they see the cost of the batteries and the pennies that the power company pays. Those that add a battery bank and some switching have a fallback.
> 
> In and of itself being grid tied does not mean you have to be out of power when the grid goes down. Off grid systems must have batteries. On grid systems may have batteries.


Thats why I like the look of the solar shingles from Tesla. Comes with 1 or 2 wall mounted lithium ion batteries I have read good things about.
https://understandsolar.com/tesla-powerwall-ii-review/
There is a link for the battery review. Not a single answer yet but this is the closest thing Ive seen to getting us there yet when combined with the solar shingles. Thing is the tech is advancing so fast Id be afraid to buy anything because whatever I buy may be yesterdays news by next year. Like my laptop all over again.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

*Off-grid solar...*

This would do for most......can be "added to" for more power, or larger Kw kits are available. I see the price has gone up....but the prices of EVERYTHING seem to do that! (Batteries ARE included!!) :wave:
https://www.totalsolartechnologies.com/DIY-Kit-Medium-House


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## hiwall (Jun 15, 2012)

> Thing is the tech is advancing so fast Id be afraid to buy anything because whatever I buy may be yesterdays news by next year.


Well right now people are buying solar panels that have changed very little over the ones they had 25 years ago. People are buying the same batteries they had 25 years ago because they are the best value.


> This would do for most......can be "added to" for more power, or larger Kw kits are available. I see the price has gone up....but the prices of EVERYTHING seem to do that! (Batteries ARE included!!)


And if nothing needed replacement for for 25 years you would be paying about 2 to 4 times as much for your power as getting it from the grid. But of course in 25 years, the solar panels would have degraded by a large amount, you would have replaced the battery bank at least twice, and you would have replaced the large inverter. So the power would really have cost you as much as 10 times what grid power would have cost.


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## Flight1630 (Jan 4, 2017)

hiwall said:


> Well right now people are buying solar panels that have changed very little over the ones they had 25 years ago. People are buying the same batteries they had 25 years ago because they are the best value.
> 
> And if nothing needed replacement for for 25 years you would be paying about 2 to 4 times as much for your power as getting it from the grid. But of course in 25 years, the solar panels would have degraded by a large amount, you would have replaced the battery bank at least twice, and you would have replaced the large inverter. So the power would really have cost you as much as 10 times what grid power would have cost.


Not knowing much on solar panels. So say you had them in place and working in your castle wether it's your home BOL. Or whatever. And shtf. Then I would think it would be worth it's weight in gold to have power.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

Flight1630 said:


> Not knowing much on solar panels. So say you had them in place and working in your castle wether it's your home BOL. Or whatever. And shtf. Then I would think it would be worth it's weight in gold to have power.


Having your own power source during a SHTF event would be greatly beneficial. Unfortunately may also a great way of giving your location away.

Solar panels stand out like a sore thumb. Hard to hide, easily damaged and hard to protect.

Generator has the engine exhaust noise, requires fuel and maintenance.

Bike powered generator. Silent, portable, requires no fuel, easily hidden. Great way of building up leg muscles while you're waiting until it's safe to come out. Have to limited your electrical consumption to bare minimums.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

*Yup....*



hiwall said:


> Well right now people are buying solar panels that have changed very little over the ones they had 25 years ago. People are buying the same batteries they had 25 years ago because they are the best value.
> 
> And if nothing needed replacement for for 25 years you would be paying about 2 to 4 times as much for your power as getting it from the grid. But of course in 25 years, the solar panels would have degraded by a large amount, you would have replaced the battery bank at least twice, and you would have replaced the large inverter. So the power would really have cost you as much as 10 times what grid power would have cost.


Ummmmm, and WITHOUT the "power grid," exactly how much juice would ya have? Sure it's more expensive than the grid...won't argue that! But if there AIN'T no "grid," ya got ZIP, without some form of off-grid system, whether it's a solar system, wind turbine, water turbine, or a bicycle powered generator. Yeah, ya gotta replace/upgrade a few things every so often, but ya do what ya gotta do. :dunno:


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

TheLazyL said:


> Having your own power source during a SHTF event would be greatly beneficial. Unfortunately may also a great way of giving your location away. Solar panels stand out like a sore thumb. Hard to hide, protect from damage and protect. Generator has the engine exhaust noise, requires fuel and maintenance.
> Bike powered generator. Silent, portable, requires no fuel, easily hidden. Great way of building up leg muscles while you're waiting until it's safe to come out. Have to limited your electrical consumption to bare minimums.


1. Having your own power source if the SHTF is a vital necessity.
2. Yeah, the solar panels are the "sore spot," even with dark panels, which is why they are best in really isolated areas, where you're surrounded by mountains or forest....then they are visible only from above, and if the SHTF, the only ones "up above" will be the military.....may be wrong, but I ain't worried about the military, they're gonna have a lot more to worry about than looking for solar panels.
3. Generators can be silenced, the HDPK-L2, extreme attenuation package really knocks out the noise...hell, you can't hear the thing 20' away.


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## TheLazyL (Jun 5, 2012)

I'm wondering if most "Preppers" are plannng to use the same amount of power after a major SHTF as before the SHTF? I'm not thinking a day or maybe a week, I'm thinking months, years or even a generation.

Need the refrigerator, need the air conditioner, need the 220V well pump, need power to run the furnace, need the TV, need lights in every room, need the hot water heater, need the microwave, need the stove, need the DVR player, need... resulting in a solar array sized for before the SHTF power consumption!

Or.

Portable solar cell easily erected behind a south facing house window, bicycle powered generator with 1 or 2 easily acquired car batteries. Enough power to recharged the handheld radios, rechargeable batteries and power the base stations. Anything else requiring power we learn to do without. Couple hundred dollars instead of several thousand dollars.


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## Pessimistic2 (Jan 26, 2017)

TheLazyL said:


> I'm wondering if most "Preppers" are plannng to use the same amount of power after a major SHTF as before the SHTF? I'm not thinking a day or maybe a week, I'm thinking months, years or even a generation. Need the refrigerator, need the air conditioner, need the 220V well pump, need power to run the furnace, need the TV, need lights in every room, need the hot water heater, need the microwave, need the stove, need the DVR player, need... resulting in a solar array sized for before the SHTF power consumption!
> Or.
> Portable solar cell easily erected behind a south facing house window, bicycle powered generator with 1 or 2 easily acquired car batteries. Enough power to recharged the handheld radios, rechargeable batteries and power the base stations. Anything else requiring power we learn to do without. Couple hundred dollars instead of several thousand dollars.


This is exactly why I opted for "overkill." 25Kw generator, 25Kw Solar. Water turbine, not so much...but that is a sort of "last resort." I ain't pedaling no bicycle powered generator, and Bo/Lilly wouldn't stay on a treadmill! :rofl: 
Sooooo....... Post SHTF, who knows what would happen, or how long it'll take before something rises out of the ashes and dust that resembles "civilization??"


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## terri9630 (Jun 2, 2016)

Pessimistic2 said:


> This is exactly why I opted for "overkill." 25Kw generator, 25Kw Solar. Water turbine, not so much...but that is a sort of "last resort." I ain't pedaling no bicycle powered generator, and Bo/Lilly wouldn't stay on a treadmill! :rofl:
> Sooooo....... Post SHTF, who knows what would happen, or how long it'll take before something rises out of the ashes and dust that resembles "civilization??"


I'd love to have one of those treadmills. Build muscle on the goats and make power or split wood.


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