# Marauders, looter and gangs during shtf, wrol, economic collapse



## LastOutlaw

Lots to be considered in this video. Could you defend against these guys? Could you deter? Could you be missed as they travel by?

*MARAUDERS, LOOTER AND GANGS DURING SHTF, WROL, ECONOMIC COLLAPSE *


----------



## FrankW

The clip itself (not the OP!  ) above is fear mongering thats not helpful to what this group here wants to accomplish..

This is the kind of stuff the statists would love everyone to see in order to discourage folks to improve themsleves

1) Contrary to novelizations of worst case scenarios any group of marauders during SHTF will not be large.
Why?
a) Because its takes reliable access to gasoline to keep a larger group together as larger groups need lots of food and post-SHTF such a group would have to marauder ever larger areas to keep fed.
And this cant occur w/o motorized transport and that needs a reliable source of gas which by definition will not be there during any plausible SHTF.
b) And assembling a large group needs communications... also not there during most a plausible SHTFs

2) So not only is the group likely not large to begin with but also any group that gets its supplies via violence instead of prepping will see itself attrited very quickly ..
Why?... because everyone is armed in this country and as a result such a group will lose guys fairly regularly even if it were successful..

Recruiting from the victims doesnt work either . but even if it did....

3) _ongoing attrition would dilute any military like competence the group started out with._.

4) Also such a group cannot stay undetected because their very MO is to steal stuff via firefights which are very noisy .

Unless we get really unlucky any realistic size group we can take care of at my BOL.. Why?

Because as we are all well armed (professional rigs with quality rifles, professional grade optics for both short and long ranges mission sets), led by tactically competent personnel and *most important of all* all adult male members are very well trained under repeat " tac lanes" in terrain that duplicates ours.

Plus we will engage in active patrolling during SHTF Phases 1 and 2.. and would likely detect their presence in the area early. 
(What are these phases I speak of? Phase 1= start of SHTF most folks not on the road yet ......not starving yet too badly..... but preppers moving to BOLs and/or establishing SHTF priority of work,... Phase 2: All the unprepareed are streaming out of the population centers and are starving badly.. where both dirt bags and family fathers will see to feed their own by any means neccessary.. rule of law (ROL) is long out the window...this is the primary violence phase ... it may last many months .. Phase 3 the majority of the population has died due to starvation and violence.. the remaining population density is back in equilibrium with the much reduced 19th century style resource generation...violence levels not a slow as now but at least it will be possible to till a field w/o 100 PPL jumping out of the bushes trying to eat the draft horse.)
Especially hearing the firefights they will have to engage in when plundering out neighbors.

Any such a group will likely be over confident and once detected could be wiped out in a surprise attack in their makeshift camp... Because just because they are the bad guys doesn't mean they are magically immune against an attack on themselves...
. because unless they are large (see point 1) above why they will not be) they will not have the manpower to conduct robust patrolling in the size necessary for a force of guys who just pissed off all the locals.

I am not saying such a threat as in the clip isn't serious... but what I am saying a moderately sized, well trained and armed prepper group should, if it doesnt make any egregious mistakes, be able to stop any *realistic and plausible* marauder group in its tracks.

That's why we all need to realistically train with our gear not just stack it in the corner and feel good from looking at it...
And when we train we cant be misdirecting ourselves on fun stuff like bolt-action long range plinking..
But we need to focus our training on the established and universally vetted standard for tactical rifles and thier use.
This standard is 5.56mm AR or similar style rifles equipped with a red dot or HWS supported by a decent chest-rig or battlebelt set-up.
And the use we need to train for..... is fast but reasonably accurate fire at relatively short ranges conducted with controlled movement in our prepper group.

This is not as hard as it sounds. The Army trains teenage boys to do this all the time (most of which daydream about beer and pussy during training and barely pay any attention ... just imagine how good a serious family father can get....)

So Get quality training.
try to avoid the "SWAT fantasy camp" type of training providers.. They are not a bad place to start out.....with one class or even two.. but once you got your rifle handling decent by one of those classes seek out trainers who focus on light infantry approach.
Examples are Max Velocity tactical, Mosby, Mason Dixon tactical and similar..


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

I respectfully disagree with bluez. I think over time in a truly bad situation the gangs of looters will get larger. I believe this will happen because they will quickly realize that the only advantage they will have is numbers in the face of better armed, better trained, and generally more capable adversaries that have things they desire. Also there will be great recruitment opportunities as many folks become more and more desperate. Fuel and logistics can easily be replaced by locust tactics.


----------



## AmmoSgt

scary possibility

I would imagine however that most folks would be in reasonably large group, if not initially, eventually... and , well , the preppers I know seem to think two can play that game and most have at least some plans to have an informal neighborhood patrol .. The term vigilante seems a bit harsh, but a lot of folks seem to think proactive is better than not. There is a difference between , how did they say it, "basic military training" and pissed off combat vets

I'm on a couple forums same screen name .. i'm not a big fan of looking for a fight, especially a fire fight.. I'm more about looking for folks with talents that my group can use wandering around.. I figure there will be useful people that didn't prep.

But I'm not unacquainted with defense .. a lot of folks thing only in terms of guns and maybe dogs .. I believe in hardening the area

There are a lot of resources to make defense easier 
http://www.amazing1.com/categories/protection-security.html

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2012/06/how-black-lights-make-things-glow/ http://www.bowhunting.net/artman/pu...l_104/Turkey_-_The_Eyes_Have_it_printer.shtml

Storm windows http://freckleface.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/polycarbonatesheetonequarterinchthick.html

thermal imagery surveillance and rifle sights are coming down in price for nighttime work.. common with hog hunters coupled with an AR 10 or similar

Booby traps http://www.burglarbomb.com/

https://www.hsaj.org/articles/72 http://senstar.com/products/fence-and-wall-mounted-sensors/

http://www.rbtec.com/products/buried-underground-sensors/seismokit

http://www.flir.com/security/content/?id=67507

I'm not knocking the older IR technology for seeing in the dark at night.. the range is more limited it is true .. but I like it for daytime.. that red ring of IR LED's attracts hummingbirds in the day time and they try to feed .. you can get some great close ups .. it's at night when a spider crawls across the lens I had half a spider completely fill my TV screen .. so I went out to see how big he really was .. about 3/8th an inch across a little bigger than the lens..

just putting out trip wires for people to trip.. even if they aren't connected to anything. baby monitors out in the woods in likely places little tiny small single red LED's that just are on I dunno hack one of those cheap solar powered turn on at dusk line the side walk lights rearrange it so it looks like the power light on a camera use some red cellophane so it looks red stick it up in a tree way up.. .. it will be out there forever coming on at dusk looking like an evil little red eye ..






but yeah it may come down to a proactive response if you find out they are in your area hunt the hunters

Drones are getting interesting


----------



## AmmoSgt

CrackbottomLouis said:


> I respectfully disagree with bluez. I think over time in a truly bad situation the gangs of looters will get larger. I believe this will happen because they will quickly realize that the only advantage they will have is numbers in the face of better armed, better trained, and generally more capable adversaries that have things they desire. Also there will be great recruitment opportunities as many folks become more and more desperate. Fuel and logistics can easily be replaced by locust tactics.


I am categorically against dismissing any possibility .. but I can be a PITA challenging people to give me examples of where and when such things occur

You can't live off just looting if the supply chain breaks down.. Cities have only a few days of food , most people only have few days maybe a week of stuff that doesn't need a refrigerator for the average family size. Food is incredibly dangerous stuff .. it goes bad it cam kill you.. constantly having to get in fire fights every few days can get you killed for just a couple days of food .. what you can carry .. the good people will hunt you down .. heading off into the unknown outside you comfort area where their might be dragons or sea monsters or pissed off vets with Garand's .. I dunno fear and hunger makes disciplined attack planning hard , leader who don't deliver the goods have more to fear from their own gang than from me.
All that said.. it could happen .. I have some defenses / early warning and some friends


----------



## Tweto

The very best defense of these types is mother nature. It will be reasonably safe in the Northern areas with snow on the ground. The chances that a gang of city thugs will spend anytime if a forest when it's zero degrees out is slim and none.

Another thing that was mentioned was that they will be questioning locals to find out who might be preppers. Preppers that seem to have a desperate need to share their person info with fellow church people, friends, or relatives will be bragging about "this person they know that has food stored and firearms and thousands of rounds of ammo". Has soon as this happens it's just a matter of time before they are at your door.

AmmoSgt is right about the stealth cameras and driveway alert devices that can be as far as a quart miles away and the send advanced warnings to you before the road thugs know they have been discovered.

Another advantage to living in the plains is the vast (miles and miles and miles) of fields with unobstructed views, because of this, if you were to just keep an eye out you would see them coming long before they even knew you knew.


----------



## crabapple

This is BS.
These gang have the law protecting them with the right to trial.
After the fall, if & when it falls.
We the farmer will not put you on trial, we will shoot you & dray you to a pit & let the worms eat you.

Worms got eat said Josey Wells


----------



## AmmoSgt

while there is no perfect defense, this comes close

https://throwflame.com/

and no, I don't have one......... yet


----------



## LastOutlaw

AmmoSgt said:


> while there is no perfect defense, this comes close
> 
> https://throwflame.com/
> 
> and no, I don't have one......... yet


it looks pretty neat and would be fun but the range is very short.


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

For every one group with goods capable of protecting them there are hundreds if not thousands or more families that don't have a group and with a small extra bit of food and a tank of gas that some piece of shit will kill for. A group of 30 bastards with some arms and a ruthless disposition could easily terrorize a thousand such folks and consolidate their meager supplies into a month or so of resources. If I was a piece of crap my tactics wouldn't be too much different from the video. By gathering Intel, picking soft targets, and having greater numbers and more guns with just a bit of training and a somewhat capable leader the scenario laid out in the video is entirely plausible. Maybe not against bluez's group as he described it but I bet there would be more than enough soft targets at least for a good while to make it through to where they can gather all the piece of shit survivors of early skirmishes into a marauder group hardened by survival. Case in point, there is a group I know of (that doesn't know of me) on the south side of Atlanta. They think of themselves as preppers but have far more guns and ammo than other resources and most of the members have extensive military training. In my threat assessment I consider this group to be one of the most dangerous to me and mine even more than the gangbangers in the city and the biker gangs north of me. They only number in the 20's as far as I know and their mentality, weapons, and training are troublesome. They could easily form the nucleus of a much larger group in a bad situation and rule with an iron fist. And I'm pretty sure they could take most objectives with enough time and intel.


----------



## BillS

You have to divide gangs/looters into urban and rural categories. A rural gang could take over a farm and force people to work it in exchange for food. 

An urban gang isn't likely to last long because only about 3% of people are preppers but a good 40% of the population own guns. A gang could lose someone in a home invasion only to find that the homeowner they killed had no food. They could be forced to do multiple home invasions in a single day and take a lot of casualties. If they're attacking a home they could have their neighbors shooting at them too.


----------



## AmmoSgt

My theory is the biggest killer is going to be all those things that the penumbras of civilization protect us from.. sanitation and hygiene are almost automagical dishwashers and washing machines and hot showers and flush toilets and even trash pick up and recycling. Field sanitation is real hard to enforce and doesn't make any sense to so many folks .. it's like getting folks to wear hearing protection and safety glasses , their helmet and body armor, only harder .. sterilizing your dishes and utensils after eating in boiling water cooking food to the right temperature.. and anybody here ever shoot and clean a deer or a squirrel.. I'm not talking about just field dressing.. I'm talking bout all that stuff you do back home or at the cabin with running water nd clean space to turn wild game into ready to cook meat.. and then the cooking.. the oven temp, the right temp for the right time , the meat thermometer and even with all that 48 million Americans get sick ,128,000 get hospitalized from food poisoning, and with all the intact medical intervention and medicines of civilizations 3,000 still die every year. Imagine what the death rate for 48 Million would be without medical intervention, medicines, or hospitals .. in fact, imagine how many more than 48 million will get sick with out clean pots and pans and plates and glasses and utensils. Not to mention the bad guys having unprotected sex with their victims... for both parties... 

It is just, Right Now, before the shtf we don't see , we can't imagine, the problem that can come from not having a dishwasher, or even hot and cold running water, a clean sink and a clean dish rack and clean towels to dry them off with and a clean place to store them and a ready supply of soap.. no refrigeration or baggies or plastic wrap or pot to pee in ... any lackness or slackness brings, not just bears and raccoons but flies and ants and weevils and maggots .. and in this industrial age when lakes and rivers are just an extension of our sewers .. if the water treatment plants aren't up and running .. how much effort are you going to put into even getting just clean drinking water much less all that clean up water you wash that deer carcass and the berries and the dishes in, much less yourself and any wounds, nicks, cuts.. imagine shaving with God only knows what in the water from the lake and nicking yourself? People today think it had to be the Pharaoh's curse that killed Lord Carnarvon , I mean after all , you don't die from nicking a small bug bite while shaving, unless of course you are using water from the tap in some third world country and it gets all infected ... 

My favorite question to folks planning to "live off the land" and cook over open fires .. do you have a meat thermometer and a bone saw in your bug out bag? I assume everybody has a knife or three .. Got soap? Got bleach? Got condoms? Got clean socks and the discipline to change them a couple times a day on the march? Understand trench foot and frost bite and sunburn.. In the military these are priorities of the first order simply because compared to them the death and casualty rate from mere combat is merely a relatively minor issue.. even still today... And people have gotten such a distorted view of death these days.. The US Civil war over half the wounded died.. WW2 1 in 4 died , today it is less than 1 in 10. It's all about the golden hour, can you get your wounded and injured from the battle field to a major trauma facility in less than an hour? Military has helicopters and portably hospitals close to the front with trauma specialists. That's the difference between walking wounded and dead.. even "minor" gunshot wounds or knife cuts, unattended, will eventually kill you .. 

Staying alive takes a lot of work even if nobody is shooting at you.. with civilization you have no end to automagical protections and built in autocorrections many many game lives and some free do-overs .. without all that, that foot blister is going to kill you. Okay I'll give you 50/50 odds it kills you .. but the longer you live under stress and a catch as catch can diet short on fresh foods , sleeping rough, slack personal hygiene .. how quickly 50/50 become 90/10 against. This applies to everybody.. saints and sinners 

Even blueberries.. you have to wash them before you eat them.. especially the ones lower down the bush under where the birds sit to eat the upper ones. 

the bad guys have families to feed too.. if all you know is how to terrorize and loot and guns and force and intimidation.. if you need forced labor to work your farm you better know how to farm and you need to understand, you neglect or harm or even kill your forced laborer's kids or family members... you are giving up leverage and making a very dangerous opponent.

Ask the secret service that guards the President what they fear most.. somebody who isn't afraid to die or think they are going to die anyway or is even willing to die to do what they set out to do. 

Yeah, the gangs are scary.. we probably should take precautions and be vigilant so nobody kills us and steals our cheese...


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

AmmoSgt said:


> My theory is the biggest killer is going to be all those things that the penumbras of civilization protect us from.. sanitation and hygiene are almost automagical dishwashers and washing machines and hot showers and flush toilets and even trash pick up and recycling. Field sanitation is real hard to enforce and doesn't make any sense to so many folks .. it's like getting folks to wear hearing protection and safety glasses , their helmet and body armor, only harder .. sterilizing your dishes and utensils after eating in boiling water cooking food to the right temperature.. and anybody here ever shoot and clean a deer or a squirrel.. I'm not talking about just field dressing.. I'm talking bout all that stuff you do back home or at the cabin with running water nd clean space to turn wild game into ready to cook meat.. and then the cooking.. the oven temp, the right temp for the right time , the meat thermometer and even with all that 48 million Americans get sick ,128,000 get hospitalized from food poisoning, and with all the intact medical intervention and medicines of civilizations 3,000 still die every year. Imagine what the death rate for 48 Million would be without medical intervention, medicines, or hospitals .. in fact, imagine how many more than 48 million will get sick with out clean pots and pans and plates and glasses and utensils. Not to mention the bad guys having unprotected sex with their victims... for both parties...
> 
> It is just, Right Now, before the shtf we don't see , we can't imagine, the problem that can come from not having a dishwasher, or even hot and cold running water, a clean sink and a clean dish rack and clean towels to dry them off with and a clean place to store them and a ready supply of soap.. no refrigeration or baggies or plastic wrap or pot to pee in ... any lackness or slackness brings, not just bears and raccoons but flies and ants and weevils and maggots .. and in this industrial age when lakes and rivers are just an extension of our sewers .. if the water treatment plants aren't up and running .. how much effort are you going to put into even getting just clean drinking water much less all that clean up water you wash that deer carcass and the berries and the dishes in, much less yourself and any wounds, nicks, cuts.. imagine shaving with God only knows what in the water from the lake and nicking yourself? People today think it had to be the Pharaoh's curse that killed Lord Carnarvon , I mean after all , you don't die from nicking a small bug bite while shaving, unless of course you are using water from the tap in some third world country and it gets all infected ...
> 
> My favorite question to folks planning to "live off the land" and cook over open fires .. do you have a meat thermometer and a bone saw in your bug out bag? I assume everybody has a knife or three .. Got soap? Got bleach? Got condoms? Got clean socks and the discipline to change them a couple times a day on the march? Understand trench foot and frost bite and sunburn.. In the military these are priorities of the first order simply because compared to them the death and casualty rate from mere combat is merely a relatively minor issue.. even still today... And people have gotten such a distorted view of death these days.. The US Civil war over half the wounded died.. WW2 1 in 4 died , today it is less than 1 in 10. It's all about the golden hour, can you get your wounded and injured from the battle field to a major trauma facility in less than an hour? Military has helicopters and portably hospitals close to the front with trauma specialists. That's the difference between walking wounded and dead.. even "minor" gunshot wounds or knife cuts, unattended, will eventually kill you ..
> 
> Staying alive takes a lot of work even if nobody is shooting at you.. with civilization you have no end to automagical protections and built in autocorrections many many game lives and some free do-overs .. without all that, that foot blister is going to kill you. Okay I'll give you 50/50 odds it kills you .. but the longer you live under stress and a catch as catch can diet short on fresh foods , sleeping rough, slack personal hygiene .. how quickly 50/50 become 90/10 against. This applies to everybody.. saints and sinners
> 
> Even blueberries.. you have to wash them before you eat them.. especially the ones lower down the bush under where the birds sit to eat the upper ones.
> 
> the bad guys have families to feed too.. if all you know is how to terrorize and loot and guns and force and intimidation.. if you need forced labor to work your farm you better know how to farm and you need to understand, you neglect or harm or even kill your forced laborer's kids or family members... you are giving up leverage and making a very dangerous opponent.
> 
> Ask the secret service that guards the President what they fear most.. somebody who isn't afraid to die or think they are going to die anyway or is even willing to die to do what they set out to do.
> 
> Yeah, the gangs are scary.. we probably should take precautions and be vigilant so nobody kills us and steals our cheese...


Very well said sir. This post should be read by all.


----------



## oldasrocks

Good points made above especially since we are overprotected from germs now. Having traveled to foreign countries where if you eat what they eat you will get sick. They have built up immunities to certain germs. Common sense will play a major factor in here which has all but been bred out of the populace. Water will be a bigger factor than food.


----------



## crabapple

I know most people were born into a suburban home. but I was raised in rural part of my state. No hot water, no water heater, we used a wood stove & boiled everything. No AC, only a wood stove for heat & blankets. Black & white T.V., when we had one, not watching it, until after dark. The old farm house had a bathroom with a hole in the floor, then no bath room. We wash in a large foot bath until I was 15 year old.
We killed wild game & tame animals,rabbits, squirrels,hogs,deer & chickens only bull where trucked to a butcher. We cut the hog up on the kitchen table.
We grew everything, but flour,sugar & peanut butter & clothes.
Cut wood on the week end, feed animals, milked cows every day, school or no school. Run a fence line weekly, cut brush back from the fields & stacked the brush in the hedge row to dry for winter heating.We had BSF fly, blood sucker, ticks, fleas & remember oiling the hogs to kill the lice. It was not all work we got to sleep 6-8 hours a night. I plowed with a mule & a tractor, used a hoe more the the other two combined.
Store seeds,hickory & black walnut up for the winter. Canned & froze everything we grew. I made a few improvements, a bigger orchard but a smaller garden, more types of vegetable. But I am glad I do not have to work all the time.
I have the skill & could go back there. 90% of the people in my BOL were raised the same way I was. The Fed Gov. trained a few of us to kill, we do not want to use those skills, but everyone dies, it is just when & how that is not set in stone.


----------



## AmmoSgt

For the longest time we lived in a Sears Kit house on 40 acres .. ever few yers we would do a "spring cleaning" we took the house apart , well the Sears part.. it was just bolted together.. dad built a corrugated aluminum sheet and 2x4 sloped roof extension on the back and used nails.. couldn't take that part apart for cleaning had a windmill had to pull the rods and change the leather gaskets every couple of years just short of 200 feet deep twelve 16 foot rod sections hand pulled with a block and tackle and our ford tractor only had a tire on one of the front wheels. Neighbors had a cow and we alternated milking days in exchange for dove, quail, and squirrels, sometimes frogs, we had giant bullfrogs down in the creek, split the occasional deer .. couldn't eat the rabbits had about a gazillion rabbits spending some time after school killing rabbits was a daily chore but every time we would cut one open the liver had white spots Tularemia. Made school clothes money catching snakes, King snakes, Rosy boas, Gopher snakes, had buyer that paid a dollar a foot all I could catch, caught a leaf nosed glass snake once dollar an inch for 14 inches .. big time. Fried the squirrels whole .. learned how to grab the fried squirrel by the teeth, take a knife and sever the head flip the knife and crack the skull flip it back and flick the bone fragments out of the way with the tip of the blade and suck the brain out all in one smooth move.. my Mom hated for me to do that at the table.. but I was just too fast... picked pears dragging a 2 lug bag and stack hay bales with the best of them.. btw I don't often hunt deer any more.. Alabama deer taste funny.. I imagine if I could find a pear orchard to hunt in they would taste better, but all we got here is apple orchards .. don't know what is wrong with the locals here.. they all go out in the woods wearing cammo to hunt deer , man, that is crazy. I get the farmer a bottle of whatever he drinks and set up a chair where I can watch the orchard and the first deer with enough of a spike to be legal I see in the orchard I harvest.. young tender meat, pear or apple fed ... I've tasted deer that eat weeds and acorns.. and then when I have them over for my deer meat they wonder how I got that taste It's Christmas, don't have a hindquarter in the freezer, haven't now for several years .. guess a previous post on a Christmas thread got me nostalgic. We got two deer beds within a quarter mile of where I sit tonight that always show signs of use. Had one of their fawns show up in the neighbor's front yard with a broken front leg couple months back .. it was making it on three legs so we put it back.

thing to remember for every three deer you take there is now enough deer food that a human can eat for one person , mostly acorns, but around here also pecans and pig weed, and red buds .. we got soy and cotton fields all around pig weed stands out like a sore thumb and farmers hate it.. just talk to them, odds are they will let you take all you want .. they got to take it out anyway and they have no use for it... the trick is you need a mature seedhead , that's about a pound of amaranth , but you got to get it before it starts spreading pigweed seeds back in the field .. so you got to go out and bag the heads so the farmer knows that you know what you are doing.

Just an afterthought, speaking of marauders .. it's crops like amaranth that most folks don't recognize and grow looking like weeds that might save some food it is an incredibly easy crop too grow and harvest and really doesn't need any special tools or inputs.. I gather wild but there re some high producing crop versions that are even tastier .. and most folks really don't tackle a grain outside corn which really needs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixtamalization 




anyway just easier http://www.motherearthnews.com/organic-gardening/grow-amaranth?pageid=2#PageContent2 and a whole lot more stealth if you plant it right but then I seed trails in the woods and along border/ transitions with stuff like Muscadines , grapes .. veggies in long lines along fences out in the wild


----------



## AmmoSgt

hey, I got a question.. why are these guys bothering preppers instead of knocking over a grocery store or a big box or a warehouse or some boxcars down on the tracks ?


----------



## Resto

The very things that we learn and practice are the very things these thugs don't. Why do we practice and learn? Because we are Wise. Thugs are not Wise. They don't fear God Either. Fear of God is the Beginning of Wisdom and respect for Law. Throw God in the Mix then see who comes out alive in Battle. All through out History, wise men have understood that God gives Victory. These thugs will not Survive themselves. Napoleon was asked what he thought was the biggest Mystery of Mankind. He said "The Jews". At the time their Land was gone, yet they were still an "Intact" Culture and had survived things that no other group had, now they are back in the Land after 1900 years. No Nation or Culture has ever come back like this or even survived such conquering. The only way this could have happened is if a "Super Natural" "Ultimate Power" was in "Complete Control" of their welfare, even against their will. So I would ask the Thugs "How Big Is Your God"? They wont even see me coming. I am not in "Defensive Mode". 

Ive seen these Thugs and their Fear. They have attacked my House. It was used to run drugs before I bought it. I convinced them with "Force" to steer Clear. They Chose after 2 years to Walk Away. The Price was too high. Yes Thugs have a lot of Fear.


----------



## LastOutlaw

AmmoSgt said:


> hey, I got a question.. why are these guys bothering preppers instead of knocking over a grocery store or a big box or a warehouse or some boxcars down on the tracks ?


I believe that this scenario is after shtf and when the country is wrol.

By the time this takes place grocery stores would be empty and box cars emptied as well. AS... you are right in your earlier post that there are many scenarios that may or may not be more probable than a complete collapse, such as pandemic or other issues but this scenario addresses the scenario of after shtf and wrol and how looters or marauders may try to raid on BOLs etc.
Many people here are members of MAGs or have a BOL or even a homestead and this post was to show possible ways they might be at risk in the hopes that it might help them to see scenarios that they may not have considered and prepare for them.

I saw this video over 5 years ago and had to go hunt and have others hunt for it so I could post it here to share with others who it might help.
I hope it has brought up some possibilities that others have not considered and maybe given some insight to how an enemy group might operate so we can all be more prepared.

Personally I have abandoned the MAG/BOL idea a couple of years ago for reasons I have posted in another thread ( http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f2/failure-mag-bol-29417/) and am now looking toward a homestead and networking with my neighbors in the hopes that it will be more secure or secure-able as well as sustainable when/if needed.


----------



## tsrwivey

AmmoSgt said:


> while there is no perfect defense, this comes close
> 
> https://throwflame.com/
> 
> and no, I don't have one......... yet


They're proud of 'em! I hope no one in my area gets one, they'd burn down the woods & everyone's house with it. Don't they have something like this for burning fence row that would work after a few modifications, that wouldn't be quite so expensive?

OTOH, if a certain husband were gifted one by a loving wife perhaps next Christmas Santa would bring her a freeze drier? :dunno:


----------



## Tweto

AmmoSgt said:


> while there is no perfect defense, this comes close
> 
> https://throwflame.com/
> 
> and no, I don't have one......... yet


To call this the perfect defense is done with no reference to its use in combat. When the marines were clearing islands in the pacific the flame throwers were used only for imbedded Japs, (bunkers, tunnels, etc.). When the Japanese saw a soldier wearing a flamethrower, it was like they hit the jackpot. One incendiary round into the pressurized tank would set it off in a fire ball and kill or wound several of the American forces near him. Because of this, the Japs considered anyone wearing a flamethrower to be top priority to kill. Once they put a flamethrower on the soldiers lifespan was only a few mins or less.


----------



## hiwall

> The M2 flamethrower was an American man-portable backpack flamethrower that was used in World War II. It was the successor to the M1 and M1A1 flamethrowers. Although its burn time was only around 7 seconds


7 seconds..................


----------



## AmmoSgt

It's just an option.. it's out there.. I can see applications, none involve anybody wearing it or it being mobile.

Yeah, the enemy targets anybody wearing one, anybody carrying the radio and anybody that looks like an officer and they certainly don't like machine guns, they do tend to draw fire

and the one I never really understood .. but it appears to be actually true.. enemy infantry riflemen will fire on armor over the dismounted infantry.. it seems folks will fire at what they fear .. while on the other hand studies have been done that show about half the troops never fire their individual weapon at all because of several reasons. weren't sure of the target or if you shoot you give away your position etc. .

Seems to me.. if troops get scared enough of something.. they shoot at it, not with the cold hard analysis of one target being more dangerous than another, but rather in that split second what appears to be the most threatening to them personally, whether or not what they are shooting with is the best weapon for the job.

The mere fact that such a thing as a flamethrower might be down in that farm somewhere and that the marauders know it, might cause a pause to reflect on the possibilities, and imagination could do the rest..

I think the defense is in the idea of it's existence, more than it's actual tactical application.

Me.. I would have about a half dozen different firing positions where anybody outside the farm couldn't actually see the firing position .. say just inside the barn door or in a defensive position near the front gate.. move the flamethrower around during the day in something innocuous like under a load of wood in a wheel barrow between those chosen positions and then every day or two on no set pattern do a 1 second "Test" just so anybody observing might get the idea that somewhere down there is something that does what only a flamethrower can do

War is half deception and deterrence... like my suggestion of trip wires that aren't really attached to anything except for the ones that are.. could be just a alarm or something 



 use your imagination


----------



## Caribou

We have over three hundred million people in America and if it gets that bad here Canada won't be so great either. I said that to say this, there are so many people here that there are too many scenarios to list. Good guys turned bad, gangs, and any possible scenario that you can come up with will happen. It will not be the same everywhere but somewhere each bad thing you can dream up will happen, and in some places many different bad things will play out. 

Good things will also play out. People of character will rise to the occasion and surprise you. Perhaps you will be the one that pleasantly surprises others.


----------



## Resto

Thugs are Lazy and Undisciplined, or they would not join Gangs. They would stay in School, go to College and get Jobs. Gangs are a form of welfare, they feed on Fear. These Gangstas are Idiots and full of Fear and Lies. They will break when they meet disciplined Force. DUH? That's why they are in Prison. They are already conquered. LMFAO LEA has dominated them and Put them in Cells. LEAs are ineffective political Keystone Cops and Gangs cant even defeat them in a world with ROL. These Cock Suckers will have no chance when all bets are off. Hell, they will splinter and war internally when Drugs run out and they are Hungry, cause that's where work and discipline begins. These Idiots will be no threat. They will eat each other. Even the few that survive will be Slaughtered by US. We are Prepared. This Video is ********.


----------



## readytogo

Whether you lived in suburbia or city or country what makes you think that only outsiders will be the ones coming for your goods hell it could be your own neighbors who forms a gang to take your goods. Normally preppers are known to be to themselves, none trusting, afraid to show their preparations to even family members so in a shtf situation a lone wolf is easy prey to a pack. In a shtf situation gangs can form in a minute and the heaviest concentration of organize militia groups are in country settings areas this groups can go rogue in a second and as long as preppers are not united they will fall prey, so a home in the prairie with a single family will become a easy target .Cities have gang issues, they tend to be concentrated in poor areas or housing projects housing defenseless people during the few major riots in my area this gangs looted and burn those areas but close neighborhoods like mine where never bother ,everybody practically owns weapons and are united ,streets where block and seal hell our corner grocery store had posted guards in the roof ,our local national guard unit was activated and entire areas close off .But no one can predict what really is going to happen based on movies or books and fear is our only enemy ,each individual family has a responsibility to prepared as they see fit but one thing for sure ,protection is in the numbers.


----------



## LastOutlaw

readytogo said:


> so a home in the prairie with a single family will become a easy target


I think you may be wrong on this one. I think the homes in the prairies are not alone at all. In fact I think a roaming gang will have a very hard time getting anywhere near homes in the country. I think these areas will be completely shut off to strangers and no one will be allowed to travel through small towns or vast areas of the country as locals will close all access to these areas by strangers. Roadblocks on all avenues will be set up and guarded by locals.

If you think you will drive any decent time ( an hour or more) to get to your BOL you better consider this possibility and plan for alternatives.

Also I think the people who would be most likely to become this type of marauder is the group of preppers that you considered joining but didn't because they seemed a bit shady. I know of 2 groups that we looked at when we were considering the MAG thing that were eliminated from the list due to these reasons.

They usually have military training and may not even be storing food or gear other than weapons and ammo. I've seen some online who stated they didn't need to store food because they have guns and ammo. These are the type to be the most concerned about. Not the crips and bloods type.


----------



## tsrwivey

readytogo said:


> Whether you lived in suburbia or city or country what makes you think that only outsiders will be the ones coming for your goods hell it could be your own neighbors who forms a gang to take your goods. Normally preppers are known to be to themselves, none trusting, afraid to show their preparations to even family members so in a shtf situation a lone wolf is easy prey to a pack.


Im a firm believer that loose lips sink ships. Information about our preps is given on a need to know basis & why would anyone need to know? :dunno: It's not a fear thing. Nonpreppers wouldn't show friends & family their pantry or bank account balances, why would a prepper be labeled "afraid" or nontrusting when exercising the same discretion? Our kids know we prep, they know the plan to get them here in SHTF, how would their knowing the extent of our preps benefit anyone?

As far as neighbors coming for my goods, my neighbors hear us firing the guns, theyre not that stupid. I hear what they've got too & the feeling's mutual. We plan to help our neighbors get set up to provide for themselves, there's no need for them to try to take what we have. There's only 8 houses on our road, all with private wells, 60+ head of cattle, a few flocks of chickens, a few goats, a river, & several gardens. Location. Location. Location.

LastOutlaw, I think you're right. We've even spotted exactly which trees we'll fell across the road when TSHTF.


----------



## BillM

*Roving Gangs*

In a total collapse of society, the scenario depicted in the initial video will not happen.

People familiar with gangs will tell you that outside of their familiar surroundings, they are fish out of water.

Except for trips to the penitentiary, most of them never leave the ten block area where they were born and raised.

They will terrorize those areas but will not make it out of the city.

90% of the public will die within the first six months of a collapse.

Think about it, no gas, no electricity, no food or water. and no dope!

The 10% who survive the first six months will suddenly find themselves with a wealth of resources to begin rebuilding society.


----------



## AmmoSgt

Bill, this is where I start asking, when has this ever happened? Any time any place any situation any form of SHTF?

Siege of Leningrad, The Black Death, WW2, Hiroshima, sack and siege of how many cities ... those would be closest to light out nd trucks stop running . side from the total collapse of a few attempts to colonize in the New World Like Jamestown ( and even there we aren't sure re: the Dare Stones ).

Regardless of the situation or type or cause of the SHTF it's real hard to find a death rate higher than 10% per year.

I'm not saying I know or understand how so many survive in these SHTF's , believe me I am researching it.. but 10% fatality rate all through history give take a couple percentage points is a bad as it gets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aleppo_(2012–16)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo

Starting Population over 2 Million, total deaths all side and civilians <32,000

4 years .004 percent per year

Siege of Sarajevo 1425 days , almost 4 years population about 500,000 total deaths less than 14,000 .007 percent per year

Siege of Leningrad 872 days population 3,300,000 deaths about a million including 400,000 killed during attempted evacuations death rate per year bout 12.5% this one went all the way to cannibalism.

Great Plague of London https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plague_of_London

The Great Plague killed an estimated 100,000 people, almost a quarter of London's population in 18 months.[2][3] The plague was caused by the Yersinia pestis bacterium,[4] which is usually transmitted through the bite of an infected rat flea.[5] so about 16% a year for year and a half.

90% in a year just doesn't happen. I don't care how bad it gets .. and Honestly I'm trying to be fair.. the first three are about as cut off as it gets and with everybody there trying to kill each other as fast as they can ..

Just saying, it could happen like you think.. but for planning purposes figure 10% dead after a year tops ...

open to any suggestions or examples with higher numbers

Even the Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor starting population 28 million .. hard to say exactly records were not kept lasted over several years but the worst year was 1932-33 and estimates run from 10% to as high as 30% but if you read the article the best guestamate is surrounding coutries over the extended period of the Holodomor grew 16% in population while the Ukraine only grew 6% 10% difference

If you are talking primarily deaths due to starvation , That is what the Holodomor was, enforced brutal deliberate violent starvation of an entire people over a long period of time. several years in varying degrees of starvation and the related consequence of malnutrition and the related disease and birth defects as well as the execution of at farmers that would not turn over their crops to the Russians http://www.holodomorct.org/


----------



## AmmoSgt

Bill, this is where I start asking, when has this ever happened? Any time any place any situation any form of SHTF?

Siege of Leningrad, The Black Death, WW2, Hiroshima, sack and siege of how many cities ... those would be closest to light out nd trucks stop running . side from the total collapse of a few attempts to colonize in the New World Like Jamestown ( and even there we aren't sure re: the Dare Stones ).

Regardless of the situation or type or cause of the SHTF it's real hard to find a death rate higher than 10% per year.

I'm not saying I know or understand how so many survive in these SHTF's , believe me I am researching it.. but 10% fatality rate all through history give take a couple percentage points is a bad as it gets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aleppo_(2012–16)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo

Starting Population over 2 Million, total deaths all side and civilians <32,000

4 years .004 percent per year

Siege of Sarajevo 1425 days , almost 4 years population about 500,000 total deaths less than 14,000 .007 percent per year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sarajevo

Siege of Leningrad 872 days population 3,300,000 deaths about a million including 400,000 killed during attempted evacuations death rate per year bout 12.5% this one went all the way to cannibalism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Leningrad

Great Plague of London https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plague_of_London

The Great Plague killed an estimated 100,000 people, almost a quarter of London's population in 18 months.[2][3] The plague was caused by the Yersinia pestis bacterium,[4] which is usually transmitted through the bite of an infected rat flea.[5] so about 16% a year for year and a half.

90% in a year just doesn't happen. I don't care how bad it gets .. and Honestly I'm trying to be fair.. the first three are about as cut off as it gets and with everybody there trying to kill each other as fast as they can ..

Just saying, it could happen like you think.. but for planning purposes figure 10% dead after a year tops ... Granted millions of folks left town typical wealth that it takes today to pay for snakeheads in Asia , coyotes in south America , smugglers in the Middle East and have money for the road and get set up in new country is about 2 years of the local average wage per person soo it is mostly the formerly well to do, if you can't pay the Ferryman you get stuck in the refugee camps.

open to any suggestions or examples with higher numbers

Even the Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor starting population 28 million .. hard to say exactly records were not kept lasted over several years but the worst year was 1932-33 and estimates run from 10% to as high as 30% but if you read the article the best guestamate is surrounding countries over the extended period of the Holodomor grew 16% in population while the Ukraine only grew 6% 10% difference

If you are talking primarily deaths due to starvation , That is what the Holodomor was, enforced brutal deliberate violent starvation of an entire people over a long period of time. several years in varying degrees of starvation and the related consequence of malnutrition and the related disease and birth defects as well as the execution of at farmers that would not turn over their crops to the Russians http://www.holodomorct.org/


----------



## BillM

*Sociaty of the helpless*

We live largely in the society of the helpless.

In America, most people under the age of 45 have never cooked anything from scratch.

Most women can not make biscuits of cornbread.

If it doesn't come from a box ready for the microwave , they can't cook it.

Most have never killed anything to eat or worked for a living doing hard manual labor.

A significant portion of the population have never walked anywhere and have been driven every where they went.

A huge portion of the elderly have medical issues wherein they are dependent on maintenance drugs for survival.

Most have never lived in a house without A/C or Heat.

Water comes from the tap , drinkable and even if it was available but unpurified, they won't understand how to make it potable.

The flush toilet will not be working and they have never used an out house.

Disease will be rampant with diarrhea being the largest killer.

The current population in this country is not representative of the populations you have given stats on.

90% will succumb to hunger, disease , riots, and exposure .


----------



## LastOutlaw

Bill as I posted before the ones to worry about most likely are not the crips and bloods type of gangs but groups of military trained prepper types who decided to raid and pillage rather than store food. This scenario would take place a good bit of time after shtf and most of the gangs, supplies and city dwellers were gone and dead. This scenario is very possible and if you don't think so then you probably are not preparing for it's possibility....foolishly so.

AmmoSgt. If you would like to hear first hand from someone who survived for one year in a shtf situation please visit this link and read Selco's post at SHTFplan.com. He was locked inside Bosnia for one full year and survived.

http://www.shtfplan.com/emergency-p...ugh-shtf-in-the-middle-of-a-war-zone_10252011


----------



## AmmoSgt

I conceded in my post that it might happen exactly as you say.. I don't know the future, but I don't underestimate the human will to live or their smarts.. I could ask where you got your statistics? some of them sound improbable, you make biscuits from wheat flour and corn muffins from corn meal.. I don't know if it is just a matter of regional difference in what we call things.. or if it proves your point about not knowing how to make biscuits .

But here is the thing.. if what you say is true.. 90% that means very high odds that you and I will lose family and friends, if people actually believe that why don't we have threads about how to tell if somebody is dead? and how to properly inter the remains?

I have posted on a thread on here on where to get the Common Book of Prayer. that has the burial ceremony you most often see in Movies done by the Captain of the ship, the pilot of the crashed plane, the hero of the movie when his best friend dies.. and a link to a pastoral manual with similar services for other faiths here is another one https://www.vfwpahq.org/pdf/Chaplains-Resource-Manual.pdf

If "prepare for the worst but hope for the best" has any meaning at all, why isn't this discussed? I also gave a link where you can get a legitimate Ordination and a forum where you can talk about how to conduct a service if you decide to take on those responsibilities if such things matter to you or your loved ones or your friends .. some people have specific requests .. seldom does it include rotting in place or being shoved in a ditch or dumped in a mass grave with no prayer or ceremony.. have you discussed with friends and family if come SHTF they die and how they want their remains handled? Or does that matter or does everybody just understand and accept the practical realities? In my experience in discussing this some are very understanding of the practical matters some have a very deep belief tht certain things must be done to preserve their soul certain prayer s must be said certain formalities observed certain things done for the sake of the living.. some of the living think certain formalities must be done to preserve their own sense of humanity. It's why I got Ordained , but more importantly studied up on how to do it right for those that need it. It's pretty much what got me started into looking how bad it can get.. what kind of death rate to reasonably expect. This isn't just an academic discussion at it's roots.. it actually pretty spiritual as well as practical. Somebody has to do something with the bodies that can be a pretty intense face to face with your own mortality and then there is the tremendous sense of lost and despair that you and other will have to cope with. How are you going to handle it?

If what you say is true, or even likely, long before 90% folks will be committing suicide, or talking about it, or attempting it.. anybody here actually looked into hw to handle that.. or shock, or complete mental breakdown.. there are all sorts of consequence for the living .. what if somebody wants service for a loved one and goes a little crazy demanding one and won't drop it? How are you going to handle that? Just going to throw the folks that crack outside the wire and not deal with it.

I've brought up how to handle giving birth where to get the info and supplies and the importance of antiseptic procedure to saving the life of the mother and child.. no comments on that either.

I've seen a lot of folks say 90% in a year but nobody talk about prepping to handle that.. they say they believe it, but they don't act like they believe it.

What am I to think?

Do you stock body bags? Do you have some way to record the event so records can be made if the lights come back on https://bodybagstore.com/ https://www.rocketlawyer.com/legal-forms-personal.rl#family-personal

http://www.textbooks.com/BooksDescr...DREPLACE-291&gclid=CP2P68val9ECFVI6gQodQksMjw

All I am saying is nobody knows, but if history is any guide ... it won't be 90% closer to 10%-15% and that can be important for planning purposes .. a family or 4 or 5 would, by your interpretation, only have 1 survivor, it that.. .. but then it is never our own friends and family that will die.. all of us are in that upper 10% that will survive the first year.. of course it could run on another year then of course it will only be the One of us alive if 9 out of the surviving 10 die the second year.

If you are serious , then we should talk about this, prepare for this, don't you think?


----------



## tsrwivey

I kinda have to agree with Bill, our population is delicate. A lot more delicate than ever in history. If we're ever in a scenario where we have wide spread lights out & no help from elsewhere, the casualty rate will be way more than 10%.

It's not just old people who need their meds, plenty of folks in their 30's, 40's, 50's & 60's have major chronic health problems that'll die without meds. (Some illnesses would likely resolve in a limited food situation due to weight loss if they could manage to not die in the interim.). Add in the ones dealing with major chronic pain that would run out of meds, the suicide rate would be high. 

Druggies unable to get drugs or get help detoxing could die from withdrawals or commit suicide. 

The number of people who are on psych meds is astounding, somewhere around 1/4-1/3 of the population. Many others should be on psych meds but are medicating with other drugs & alcohol. Without those meds, or the other drugs/alcohol, many will be homicidal, suicidal, or both, many others wouldn't be able to function. 

Many can mow their yard with a weed eater, many others have no yard at all. Growing their own food would prove difficult.

Many babies aren't breastfed & if they are their mothers don't produce enough milk to sustain the baby. When their formula stash runs out, how many will know how to feed the baby enough to keep him alive?

Unavailability of potable water would get many & get them quickly. Some would be able to leave the cities to places with wells, lakes, or rivers & make that water drinkable, many would not. It'd be hard and dangerous to walk that far. I find it hard to walk to the bathroom & back when I've got a bout of vomiting/ diahhrea, let alone out of a city. Most folks living in large cities don't even own a vehicle if they did work. 

Let's not forget the handicap who physically can't get out of their apartment without a working elevator, & the loved ones that wouldn't leave them. 

If you added in winter time, how many could keep themselves & their dependents warm enough to not die with the grid & transportation down? You think about the northerners but we southerners are at just as much risk. With our winters generally mild (it's 73 here in east Texas right now), we generally don't think much about back up heat. However, it's already been in the low 20's this year so it could be life threatening. Some would die trying to keep warm by fires that got out of control or toxic gases in the house.

If we had a coordinated terrorist attack on our grid & the grids of our allies, the casualties would be well over 10%.


----------



## BillM

*In an extreme*



AmmoSgt said:


> I conceded in my post that it might happen exactly as you say.. I don't know the future, but I don't underestimate the human will to live or their smarts.. I could ask where you got your statistics? some of them sound improbable, you make biscuits from wheat flour and corn muffins from corn meal.. I don't know if it is just a matter of regional difference in what we call things.. or if it proves your point about not knowing how to make biscuits .
> 
> But here is the thing.. if what you say is true.. 90% that means very high odds that you and I will lose family and friends, if people actually believe that why don't we have threads about how to tell if somebody is dead? and how to properly inter the remains?
> 
> I have posted on a thread on here on where to get the Common Book of Prayer. that has the burial ceremony you most often see in Movies done by the Captain of the ship, the pilot of the crashed plane, the hero of the movie when his best friend dies.. and a link to a pastoral manual with similar services for other faiths here is another one https://www.vfwpahq.org/pdf/Chaplains-Resource-Manual.pdf
> 
> If "prepare for the worst but hope for the best" has any meaning at all, why isn't this discussed? I also gave a link where you can get a legitimate Ordination and a forum where you can talk about how to conduct a service if you decide to take on those responsibilities if such things matter to you or your loved ones or your friends .. some people have specific requests .. seldom does it include rotting in place or being shoved in a ditch or dumped in a mass grave with no prayer or ceremony.. have you discussed with friends and family if come SHTF they die and how they want their remains handled? Or does that matter or does everybody just understand and accept the practical realities? In my experience in discussing this some are very understanding of the practical matters some have a very deep belief tht certain things must be done to preserve their soul certain prayer s must be said certain formalities observed certain things done for the sake of the living.. some of the living think certain formalities must be done to preserve their own sense of humanity. It's why I got Ordained , but more importantly studied up on how to do it right for those that need it. It's pretty much what got me started into looking how bad it can get.. what kind of death rate to reasonably expect. This isn't just an academic discussion at it's roots.. it actually pretty spiritual as well as practical. Somebody has to do something with the bodies that can be a pretty intense face to face with your own mortality and then there is the tremendous sense of lost and despair that you and other will have to cope with. How are you going to handle it?
> 
> If what you say is true, or even likely, long before 90% folks will be committing suicide, or talking about it, or attempting it.. anybody here actually looked into hw to handle that.. or shock, or complete mental breakdown.. there are all sorts of consequence for the living .. what if somebody wants service for a loved one and goes a little crazy demanding one and won't drop it? How are you going to handle that? Just going to throw the folks that crack outside the wire and not deal with it.
> 
> I've brought up how to handle giving birth where to get the info and supplies and the importance of antiseptic procedure to saving the life of the mother and child.. no comments on that either.
> 
> I've seen a lot of folks say 90% in a year but nobody talk about prepping to handle that.. they say they believe it, but they don't act like they believe it.
> 
> What am I to think?
> 
> Do you stock body bags? Do you have some way to record the event so records can be made if the lights come back on https://bodybagstore.com/ https://www.rocketlawyer.com/legal-forms-personal.rl#family-personal
> 
> http://www.textbooks.com/BooksDescr...DREPLACE-291&gclid=CP2P68val9ECFVI6gQodQksMjw
> 
> All I am saying is nobody knows, but if history is any guide ... it won't be 90% closer to 10%-15% and that can be important for planning purposes .. a family or 4 or 5 would, by your interpretation, only have 1 survivor, it that.. .. but then it is never our own friends and family that will die.. all of us are in that upper 10% that will survive the first year.. of course it could run on another year then of course it will only be the One of us alive if 9 out of the surviving 10 die the second year.
> 
> If you are serious , then we should talk about this, prepare for this, don't you think?


In an extreme situation, people who have prepared to sustain there families will up there odds to make it,

During the great depression , 80% of the population worked in an agricultural vocation. many of them had no electricity in their homes. Running water was a luxury .

Heating their home involved building a fire.

Doctors were used only in extreme emergencies.

Defense was "self defense".

Our current society is going to find its self helpless in a strange land if the lights go out for very long.


----------



## AmmoSgt

If you haven't prepared for an appendectomy or other similar medical emergencies you are right there with the unprepared .. life expectancy was 20 years less than now Infant mortality in the first year was 60 then, 6 now per 1000 live births

Maternal mortality was 1 in 140 births with a life time risk with multiple pregnancies of 1 in 23. almost unheard of now with prenatal care.. you any good at pre natal care?

And that is with at least midwives .. what it a mid wife doesn't take chickens in payment

Pneumonia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumonia#Cause

Pneumonia is due to infections caused primarily by bacteria or viruses and less commonly by fungi and parasites. Although there are more than 100 strains of infectious agents identified, only a few are responsible for the majority of the cases. Mixed infections with both viruses and bacteria may occur in up to 45% of infections in children and 15% of infections in adults.[12] A causative agent may not be isolated in approximately half of cases despite careful testing.[16]

If you don't know or can't identify , then you don't know what drugs to give.. you got Oxygen and IV's? You can have all the fish antibiotics on the market.. that they are available over the counter almost grantees that there are resistant bugs that just ignore them.. since unregulated and over use is what creates resistant strains.

So how do you know how too treat it? 7% die, and that is with hospitalization

I've previously posted the stats on food poisoning 49 million folks in the US per year 128,000 hospitalized 3000 dead

And all that is without having a single fire fight , everybody seems to think there will be fire fights, consider the OP on this thread

The list is long of thing that can happen that folks aren't prepared for, and if you are not prepared for the specific cause of death your odds are with the unprepared

it's not just about food and first aid.. if you are unprepared or unskilled for some contingency you are one of the great unwashed. and according to you 90% will die.

And once civilization with all it's automagical protections go away the 1930's will seem high tech if we are talking preps and skills

You can't declare 90% will die and then assume nobody among your friends and family will die.. we all die.. sooner without civilization even 10 to 15% the first year is 30 to 45 million.

Life expectance of 80 means about 1 in 80 die a year roughly.. there is demographic curve because ages are not evenly distributed .. but for the sake of comparison 1.2% in good times.

90% a year mean only 1% survive the second year and 99.9% are dead at the end of the third year. Third year total survivors are around 300,000 out of 300,000,000
https://www.fema.gov/news-release/2...acticing-disaster-fema-urges-everyone-prepare That means out of 120 Million who prepare to some degree , if only preppers survive , 90 million preppers died 3 out of 4 preppers are dead the first year. 75% you are going to need body bags.


----------



## AmishHeart

AmmoSgt...do you really believe that 90 percent of people in Los Angeles, Chicago, Baltimore, New York City, San Francisco would live the first year if we were hit with an EMP and everything electrical was disrupted?
I don't.
Most of our population live in these big cities.


----------



## crabapple

LastOutlaw said:


> Bill as I posted before the ones to worry about most likely are not the crips and bloods type of gangs but groups of military trained prepper types who decided to raid and pillage rather than store food. This scenario would take place a good bit of time after shtf and most of the gangs, supplies and city dwellers were gone and dead. This scenario is very possible and if you don't think so then you probably are not preparing for it's possibility....foolishly so.
> 
> AmmoSgt. If you would like to hear first hand from someone who survived for one year in a shtf situation please visit this link and read Selco's post at SHTFplan.com. He was locked inside Bosnia for one full year and survived.
> 
> http://www.shtfplan.com/emergency-p...ugh-shtf-in-the-middle-of-a-war-zone_10252011


I saw the Postman, but I am not sure they will rule as easy as you may think.


----------



## tsrwivey

So is your point that we don't have body bags, Ammosgt? I must admit I'm a little confused as to what you're getting at.


----------



## tmttactical

AmishHeart said:


> AmmoSgt...do you really believe that 90 percent of people in Los Angeles, Chicago, Baltimore, New York City, San Francisco would live the first year if we were hit with an EMP and everything electrical was disrupted?
> I don't.
> Most of our population live in these big cities.


I have read all the post and a great amount of statistics and qualified information has been provided. With that being said, I have to agree with AmishHeart. The metro / urban area's are going to have the maximum death rate (maybe 90%). The majority of these people are completely unprepared for any long lasting WROL / SHTF event. The snowflake can't even handle losing an election, how are they going to deal with no food, water, electricity, sewer service and god forbid --- no internet or Facebook. How will they deal with the real trauma of life without the safe spaces and grief counselors? I agree that past stats do not point to the 90% number of deaths but we have never lived so far from our food supplies or been so dependent on technology and commerce to provide for our needs. The urban "GREY MEN" may survive but the majority of major city people will be waiting for the government to save them. JMHO.


----------



## DrPrepper

AmmoSgt said:


> If you haven't prepared for an appendectomy or other similar medical emergencies you are right there with the unprepared .. life expectancy was 20 years less than now Infant mortality in the first year was 60 then, 6 now per 1000 live births
> 
> Maternal mortality was 1 in 140 births with a life time risk with multiple pregnancies of 1 in 23. almost unheard of now with prenatal care.. you any good at pre natal care?
> 
> And that is with at least midwives .. what it a mid wife doesn't take chickens in payment
> 
> Pneumonia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumonia#Cause
> 
> Pneumonia is due to infections caused primarily by bacteria or viruses and less commonly by fungi and parasites. Although there are more than 100 strains of infectious agents identified, only a few are responsible for the majority of the cases. Mixed infections with both viruses and bacteria may occur in up to 45% of infections in children and 15% of infections in adults.[12] A causative agent may not be isolated in approximately half of cases despite careful testing.[16]
> 
> If you don't know or can't identify , then you don't know what drugs to give.. you got Oxygen and IV's? You can have all the fish antibiotics on the market.. that they are available over the counter almost grantees that there are resistant bugs that just ignore them.. since unregulated and over use is what creates resistant strains.
> 
> So how do you know how too treat it? 7% die, and that is with hospitalization
> 
> I've previously posted the stats on food poisoning 49 million folks in the US per year 128,000 hospitalized 3000 dead
> 
> And all that is without having a single fire fight , everybody seems to think there will be fire fights, consider the OP on this thread
> 
> The list is long of thing that can happen that folks aren't prepared for, and if you are not prepared for the specific cause of death your odds are with the unprepared
> 
> it's not just about food and first aid.. if you are unprepared or unskilled for some contingency you are one of the great unwashed. and according to you 90% will die.
> 
> And once civilization with all it's automagical protections go away the 1930's will seem high tech if we are talking preps and skills
> 
> You can't declare 90% will die and then assume nobody among your friends and family will die.. we all die.. sooner without civilization even 10 to 15% the first year is 30 to 45 million.
> 
> Life expectance of 80 means about 1 in 80 die a year roughly.. there is demographic curve because ages are not evenly distributed .. but for the sake of comparison 1.2% in good times.
> 
> 90% a year mean only 1% survive the second year and 99.9% are dead at the end of the third year. Third year total survivors are around 300,000 out of 300,000,000
> https://www.fema.gov/news-release/2...acticing-disaster-fema-urges-everyone-prepare That means out of 120 Million who prepare to some degree , if only preppers survive , 90 million preppers died 3 out of 4 preppers are dead the first year. 75% you are going to need body bags.


 One thing I find fascinating is the number of people who think they can read a book or, better, watch a youtube video and and be able to perform an appendectomy, treat infectious diseases, properly set a fracture, or even be able to properly sew up a laceration. These things take more than a book or video! Even if you memorize the steps, being able to recognize appropriate anatomy without a lot of training is very unlikely. For those of us with some medical training, it may be easier, but even then, the risk of hemorrhage and/ or sepsis is far too high.

Fish antibiotics are essentially the same as people antibiotics, and equally effective as people antibiotics, but only if the antibiotic that kills the pathogen is given. And, because we expect an antibiotic to treat every sniffle, cough, or low grade temp, the excessive use of antibiotics cause the pathogens to grow stronger and more resistant every day! I don't think, though, that most deaths will occur as a result of resistant bacteria, but rather people's lack of understanding of how to maintain sanitation, hygiene, and asepsis. A friend of mine preps, and stores gallons of alcohol gel - except, he got it cheap and it is less than 60% alcohol, meaning it is not as effective for sanitizing his hands. Also, he doesn't use it properly, negating the purpose of even having it.

I can't comment on the mortality statistics in a SHTF situation- it is pure conjecture at this point, and in my opinion, will depend on the specifics of the situation.

I think the best we can do is surround ourselves with people of varied skills, learn from each other, and practice, practice, practice for whatever may come.


----------



## AmmoSgt

Bill I missed that about 80% working in Agriculture . this is what I am talking about. You need to look things up.. 1930's 25% of the population was involved in agriculture https://www.ers.usda.gov/webdocs/publications/eib3/13566_eib3_1_.pdf

Amish Heart yeah I do .. EMP isn't going to knock out as much as you think

http://www.futurescience.com/emp/test184.html Both the US and Russia hve done full scale as big as you can get Nuclear high atmospheric tests designed to produce maximum EMP That link Is to the Russian test which were done over the city that is their Cape Canaveral. It knocked out some stuff read it, but mostly it "aged" electronics so the failed sooner than expected. The Russians kept Launching both manned missions and satellites .. they did 7 tests over time/ seven nuclear shots ranging between 10 and 300 KT which is about as big as you can go as far as generating EMP you go any bigger you not only start getting diminishing returns pretty sharply but the EMP effect goes down .. the electromagnetic effect starts getting in it's own way and cancelling itself out .

We did Starfish Prime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfish_Prime most of the gear on the Island and most of the ships came thru it okay, again some stuff knocked out, but mostly "aged" stuff it knocked out some street lights in Hawaii .. Real long lines like The Power Grid collect enough energy to knock out things , but here is the thing.. the first thing knocked out cuts the long line and nothing further down that line gets hit with that energy.. the remaining short power line picks up it share .. EMP is measured is watts per meter so the shorter line one the other side of the first destroyed thing knocks out the next thing and shorter and shorter until stuff doesn't get knocked out... it's not like in the movies and books yes it does some damage .. it's estimate about 4 Trillion dollars worth.. give take a Trillion. That's a lot but it is just 1/4th of what the US produces in a year and that is the cost of fixing t.. it's about the size of the 2008 bail out .. we do these cost estimates to see which is cheaper fixing things beefing up circuit breakers hardening key point or repairing them afterwards.

http://www.offthegridnews.com/grid-...-will-survive-an-end-of-the-world-emp-attack/ Get the fastest whole house surge protector you can find http://www.homedepot.com/b/Electrical-Power-Distribution-Whole-House-Surge-Protectors/N-5yc1vZbm05 once it's tripped the grid tie is broken you aren't hooked up to the long lines and damage is really attenuated .. it will still get a fe w things.. probably won't get cars the electrical lines are too short and it's mostly set up to dump massive voltage to the started motor from the battery thicker the cable the lower the heating, shorter the cable the less power collected .

It could be a solar flare http://www.businessinsider.com/solar-storm-effects-electronics-energy-grid-2016-3 2 Trillion the first year could last a few years of repair work as stuff fails sooner than expected .. Folks with solar will probably be fine lines are too short to pick up much power it's watts per meter . couple hundred feet of household wiring will pick up a couple hundred feet worth of energy when it takes several 10's of miles to start frying things like generators and transformers. 
So yeah I think most folk in San Francisco will be fine Earth Quake & Tsunami you saw what a 9 did to Fukushima .. Building codes being what they are more or less the same Lots of hills not flat land like at Fukushima fewer deaths .. All this stuff has happened before .. Folks dependent on meds will die just like they died before there were meds . Just because you are prepper doesn't mean you will live when you run out of meds and just because you are reliant on meds doesn't mean you can't be a prepper . Preppers reliant on meds will die when they run out of meds just like anybody else.

I don't want to be a buzz kill but you guys read way to much prepper fiction and believe too much fake science.

My favorite is all the folks making faraday cages to protect their gear. Faraday cages are built usually to block radio and TV signals the bigger ones you see for telsa coil demonstrations with the guy inside are based on grounding out the artifical lightening. Ben Franklin invented the Lightening rod for lightening which is NOT EMP. EMP sees a grounding strap as just more antenna to collect on.. your house wiring will collect EMP including the ground wires thru the house A Faraday cage is just more antenna to collect a charge.. it gets enough it will spark into inside the cage and what is in it. The Defense against EMP is short lines. EMP will make the lines shorter by blowing components inline. Trillions to fix not the end of the world speed of fixing will depend of the dollars available and how many power crews are working on t .. can we protect things better? yeah sure, at a price. Can you protect yourself? yeah sure for a price. And just to be clear, those 2 and 4 Trillion dollar figures is an all up figure. repair, replace, lost business, lost production, lost jobs for businesses affected. Not the end of the world.

TV and movies gets this stuff wrong specifically because nobody wants to watch a movie about budgets and repair crews fixing the same part over and over down hundreds of miles of power line it's was worth one Glenn Campbell song period


----------



## AmmoSgt

Oh yeah , almost forgot .. if you want to learn more about EMP and what it can do you can buy emp generators http://www.amazing1.com/emp.html and play with them one of the medium power ones might be able to fry a drone flying low in your back yard.

That little EMP pistol has a very short range but up close you can scramble a computer .. like if you had an issue with some office of something and were in the office sitting next to a computer . but the metal case on the computer would probably protect it maybe it you could get a clear shot thru the fan vent.

Oh yeah.. if emp gets inside you house it may only blow up one or two things .. but those one or two things may burn down your house and many others at the same time, so you might not get a fire engine in time.. you really want to think about those whole house surge protectors.. the fastest you can get, because EMP isn't exactly like a regular power surge.


----------



## LastOutlaw

DrDianaAnderson said:


> One thing I find fascinating is the number of people who think they can read a book or, better, watch a youtube video and and be able to perform an appendectomy, treat infectious diseases, properly set a fracture, or even be able to properly sew up a laceration. These things take more than a book or video! Even if you memorize the steps, being able to recognize appropriate anatomy without a lot of training is very unlikely. For those of us with some medical training, it may be easier, but even then, the risk of hemorrhage and/ or sepsis is far too high.
> 
> Fish antibiotics are essentially the same as people antibiotics, and equally effective as people antibiotics, but only if the antibiotic that kills the pathogen is given. And, because we expect an antibiotic to treat every sniffle, cough, or low grade temp, the excessive use of antibiotics cause the pathogens to grow stronger and more resistant every day! I don't think, though, that most deaths will occur as a result of resistant bacteria, but rather people's lack of understanding of how to maintain sanitation, hygiene, and asepsis. A friend of mine preps, and stores gallons of alcohol gel - except, he got it cheap and it is less than 60% alcohol, meaning it is not as effective for sanitizing his hands. Also, he doesn't use it properly, negating the purpose of even having it.
> 
> I can't comment on the mortality statistics in a SHTF situation- it is pure conjecture at this point, and in my opinion, will depend on the specifics of the situation.
> 
> I think the best we can do is surround ourselves with people of varied skills, learn from each other, and practice, practice, practice for whatever may come.


One would have to be an idiot to think that an untrained person could perform surgery and keep the patient alive in an after shtf scenario.

Might be better than just dying outright but might not. 
Hmmmmm. do I just want to die from the appendicitis or do I want to suffer more from some idiot that thinks he/she can operate on me and then die 2 weeks later suffering the whole time?

In the end I have to ask this question....would I let AmmoSgt perform an operation on me? HELL NO! I don't care how many you tube videos she posts to show she knows what to do... LMAO!


----------



## AmmoSgt

Just to be clear.. I have not posted any youtube videos on doing surgery of any kind and I have never claimed to be able to do surgery.. total strawman argument.

I am a strong believer in doing nothing, unless I actually know what I am doing

Basic Hippocratic Oath.. first do no harm... the biggest violation that I have seen on survival boards is folks who stock up on fish antibiotics and think giving some is better than giving none. If you don't know what the infectious agent is and what it is already resistant to, you definitely risk doing more harm than good... any yet when you tell people that .. they start talking about how they can't just let people die.. and I always tell them , if you don't want to just let people die you can always get medical training, as a minimum advanced EMT and even then you still lack the skills to identify the infectious agent and you still don't know surgery.

Doctors will often prescribe antibiotics based on what is most likely going on with out getting the test results back.. but they are making an educated guess, they will get the lab work back eventually, and they have a hospital to fall back on if there is an adverse reaction or the patient gets worse, all the things folks won't have come shtf.

The best way for most folks to save as many people as possible regardless of the disease or injury is understand and practice antiseptic procedures and understand palliative care.. especially oral rehydration. Understanding when to intervene in a high fever with cooling water baths is also something most folks can learn and use, along with CPR and what to do if somebody has a seizure.

Contrary to Lastoutlaws allegation, what I do recommend is that you don't even have anything in your first aid kit that you don't know how to use properly.

learn how to do the four lifesaving steps http://www.firstaidforfree.com/the-four-lifesaving-steps/ and then remember that they are set up based on the fact that the casualty will be in a trauma center within the golden hour. Especially when it comes to tourniquets.. if you can't get the casualty to an ER within the hour you have to know more about how to manage a tourniquet than just how to apply one .

Oh, and by the way , the death rate from Appendicitis before antibiotics and surgery to remove it was used ran around 30% , you have about 2 chances out of 3 of surviving unless a unskilled know nothing thinks they have to save you by cutting you open to see if they can find something they don't even know what it looks like or thinks giving you the wrong antibiotic will help. Just saying....

And for the record I post links and video because I think the reader deserves to know what I base my opinions on.. and admittedly my opinions often differ from other folks opinions that can produce no factual basis to back them up... I just want folks to be able to tell the difference between the two types of opinions.


----------



## readytogo

Today, 54 per cent of the world’s population lives in urban areas ,in the USA 1920`s, nearly half the nation's population still resided in rural areas, dependent upon agriculture for survival. So country setting today are empty your nearest neighbor or hospital or police station could be far away leaving you and family all alone ,an open range is more difficult to protect than a small city block or even a city street. During the many public disturbances and riots here in Miami we just close our street and set to guarded it 24/7.I have lived in the country here and in Cuba open range and away from it all ,it would take an army to protect the home from a band of bad boys set on taking it. The human race is very resilient and it has lived through many disasters and many here picture a Mad Max scenario full of useless citizens and just because you lived in the country does not make you a Daniel Boone.


----------



## crabapple

LastOutlaw said:


> One would have to be an idiot to think that an untrained person could perform surgery and keep the patient alive in an after shtf scenario.
> 
> Might be better than just dying outright but might not.
> Hmmmmm. do I just want to die from the appendicitis or do I want to suffer more from some idiot that thinks he/she can operate on me and then die 2 weeks later suffering the whole time?
> 
> In the end I have to ask this question....would I let AmmoSgt perform an operation on me? HELL NO! I don't care how many you tube videos she posts to show she knows what to do... LMAO!


I agree, DW has Med training so I understand better than most.
But books & you tube has it's place, they can teach you what not to do.
When a life is not in the balance, a good well written book can help a great deal.
DW has studied holistic now & trying to get me to drank silver & herbs, no rat poison as of yet.


----------



## terri9630

AmmoSgt said:


> Just to be clear.. I have not posted any youtube videos on doing surgery of any kind and I have never claimed to be able to do surgery.. total strawman argument.


You may not have posted videos of doing surgery but you certainly imply people should do it, or at least be ready to.

Originally Posted by *AmmoSgt*  
_If you haven't prepared for an appendectomy or other similar medical emergencies you are right there with the unprepared .. life expectancy was 20 years less than now Infant mortality in the first year was 60 then, 6 now per 1000 live births

_


----------



## AmmoSgt

terri9630 said:


> You may not have posted videos of doing surgery but you certainly imply people should do it, or at least be ready to.
> 
> Originally Posted by *AmmoSgt*
> _If you haven't prepared for an appendectomy or other similar medical emergencies you are right there with the unprepared .. life expectancy was 20 years less than now Infant mortality in the first year was 60 then, 6 now per 1000 live births
> 
> _


Okay.. Woah.. that definitely came across wrong then. My intention was to make the point in relation to the claim that prepared people had a better chance of survival.. that in some categories of events, even the best prepared, are on an even footing with the unprepared. The almost universal inability, unless you are, or have a trained surgeon in you group, to do surgery yourself, makes you just as unprepared as anybody else in that regard. Prepping for surgery would be becoming surgeon. And in that regard I also want to reinforce my other comment, that appendicitis is not an automatic death sentence .. when appendicitis was first named and understood .. before people were treated with antibiotics and surgery when they had it, the death rate was 30% .. 2 out of 3 survived without intervention. And that kind of knowledge is also prepping.. in that it lessens the urge to act rashly out of a false certainty that somebody is sure to die anyway. 30% is a high fatality rate, I'm not saying it isn't , but it a lesser risk of dying than somebody just doing something to try and save you that doesn't know how. That is why the first criteria for any medical care is "do no harm". There is a lot you can do short of surgery or antibiotics to improve somebody with appendicitis's survival rate.. and it is called palliative care https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palliative_care and just to be clear again limited to what your are competent to do.. if you do not understand the effects of aspirin or ibuprofen in regards to something where there might be internal bleeding, or on other organs like the kidneys or liver, then don't give medicines. Rather provide emotional support, tell the patient the truth , in the case of appendicitis that the odds of living are in their favor , pray with them , keep them distracted from the pain and as comfortable as possible, the body has incredible powers to heal itself. See the http://www.pdr.net/ or hard copy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicians'_Desk_Reference https://www.amazon.com/Family-Guide-Prescription-Physicians-Reference/dp/060980491X https://www.amazon.com/PDR-Pocket-Guide-Prescription-Drugs/dp/1563638150 or similar get one as update as possible the most current ones tend to be expensive but a edition or two older is better than nothing and will have almost as much current .. ask your doctor if they have an old copy they aren't using, or which one they recommend . Of particular importance as much as a drugs effects, are the side effects and side effects are not just bad effects to look for, they are also reasons not to use the drug at all.. a lot depends on understanding the patients current health and allergies ect.

The same goes for antibiotics, knowing what your chances are of surviving without antibiotics , probably going to be one of the more common unnecessary deadly interventions come SHTF realistically speaking, is the kind of knowledge that can allow a caring person to not give antibiotics when they might otherwise do so thinking the risk of antibiotics is less than the risk of a disease taking it's course.

As a minimum before anybody does anything medical to anybody else you have to have an informed awareness of the relative risk between the natural course of the disease or condition and the quality of the intervention. In my experience most folks just go with common knowledge and understanding , the sense of urgency conveyed by Hollywood drama in making life or death decisions .. I used appendicitis because as far as the common knowledge goes most folks think it your appendix ruptures you die, because it is always a life or death trope in movies. When you think you already know the answer, people tend not to research or even ask the question.

Further, not every tummy ache is appendicitis .. ever seen somebody with a gall bladder attack? or pancreatitis ? can you tell them apart and what are the possible outcomes? You don't have to be a surgeon to know this stuff or learn it and unless you do what are you going to use to base decisions on? pop culture? http://www.barnesandnoble.com/p/cur...Google_&sourceId=PLGoP20420&k_clickid=3x20420

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/p/mer...Google_&sourceId=PLGoP20411&k_clickid=3x20411

Everybody has the SAS first aid book I assume, but there is a lot that can go wrong that isn't in first aid books, including how to give birth .. And while you might not be able to cure something out right, doesn't mean you can't do non invasive things to increase the chances of survival. And getting the diagnosis right in the first place is often one of them. Knowing what not to do can also save lives.


----------



## AmmoSgt

Let me take this one step further and just go ahead and make everybody mad at me

Malnutrition is not being hungry or short on food. Almost every package of food has a little panel on the side with nutritional information calories and serving size and the amount of certain vitamins and mineral in each serving.

Every one of those vitamins and minerals are there because if you don't get enough of them for long enough you can get a deadly or severely disabling disease. Vitamin D rickets, Vit. C scurvy , the list goes on http://listverse.com/2012/03/16/top-10-vitamin-deficiencies/

Commercial processed food is spiked with supplemental vitamins Your table salt has iodine , it is iodized to prevent goiter your white bread https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Bread is spiked with vitamins to prevent beri beri and pellagra you milk has Vitamin D to prevent rickets your kid's juice boxes have added vitamin C to prevent scurvy you are totld to eat your carrots for eyesight Vitamin A .. and here is a twist vitamin A is oil soluble, unlike most the others that are water soluble .. water soluble , any extra is just expelled from the body it does build up in the body.. you need a constant daily supply but it can't build up and harm you.. Vitamin A can https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypervitaminosis_A so you don't see food spiked with Vit A

Well come shtf and you growing your own food you lose the protection of civilization and government mandated spiking of processed foods with vitamins .

Pretty sure I mentioned Nixtamalization of corn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixtamalization and posted a video of it being done and where to get the pickling lime http://www.truevalue.com//catalog/p...-44622122499&gclid=CI-7xcbJmtECFQwXgQodT-cGXA to process the corn 
What some folks may have missed is that in America about 90% of all corn grown is dent corn grown for chemical feedstock for everything from ethanol to plastics to make clothes out of and corn syrup and corn oil it's not for eating it certainly doesn't taste great ansdit's tough. Americans like sweet corn about 9% of the corn grown and pop corn about 1% but even then it doesn't really matter the niacin in corn unless treated by Nixtamalization is not available .. If you process corn by Nixtamalization even dent corn is tasty , it is what is used to make corn tortillas in traditional Mesoamerican cultures , but you can't make tortillas without first doing Nixtamalization.

By doing so you open up an incredible abundance of corn as tasty and you prevent two diseases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pellagra and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwashiorkor which is sort of the opposite of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_poisoning which is too much protein and not enough fats .

You are going to have to know this stuff to stay healthy when you don't have access to government mandated vitamin spiked process foods or hunt year round.. taking wild game late winter when their fat reserves are low is about the quickest way to get protein poisoning unless you have supplemental fats like milk or cheese or supplies of rendered fat to lard up the meat http://culinaryarts.about.com/od/glossary/g/Larding.htm https://dougdemilo.newsvine.com/_ne...y-meat-try-larding-an-old-technique-for-meats the fat in meat is where most of the flavor is .. so too lean a cut will not taste as good .. Hamburgers were not popular in Europe because they didn't fatten up their beef like we do until about the 1980's When the American hamburger chains showed up .( I was there in that time frame spent 12 years in Europe ) When you took a European to their first American Hamburger fast food place it was not unusual for them to ask" What kind of meat is this". They had real problems believing it was beef.

Most of these diseases are totally unknown in America today because our food is supplemented with vitamins

The Bad news is freeze dried and dehydrated survival food isn't . Don't take my word for it .. look at your #10 can and grommet survival food pouches and see if you can get 100% RDA eating 2000 calories per day without doing careful planning if at all. It does take while being chronically deficient for a full blown case of a dietary deficiency disease to present, but in most cases the first thing that goes is the mind so you may need outside help to even notice it.


----------



## crabapple

We are back on the salt thing again!

Forget pure or organic for a minute, if half of what is said about fresh fruits & vegetable are true; no one with an acre of land should every have a problem.
But then you get in to the ANT & the GRASSHOPPER.


----------



## AmmoSgt

crabapple said:


> We are back on the salt thing again!
> 
> Forget pure or organic for a minute, if half of what is said about fresh fruits & vegetable are true; no one with an acre of land should every have a problem.
> But then you get in to the ANT & the GRASSHOPPER.


And yet, until they discovered what was causing these diseases they were epidemic around the world. All it really takes is knowing what causes what and eating accordingly. But if you don't know, and most folks these days don't know because of government regulation mandating fortifying food with vitamins .. how do they know to even plant vegetables or fruits that naturally have the key nutrients. Of course to know what to plant you have to know what plants have what as far as key nutrients.

Leaving it to dumb luck can literally cause brain damage .

Crabapple do what you want to do.. nobody has to take my advice.. if you think it can't happen to you, you know you better far better than I do. I'm on a survival forum I post survival stuff , I have no control over what people do with it if anything .. I'm just saying this is true, it was true when folks got it on a regular basis and it is still true when folks get cut off from the artificial sources that cured it. Vitamin supplements actually go bad and lose strength, some of these actually affect the mind in a way that can make if almost impossible for you to help yourself once it sets in and where are you going to get specialized foods or supplements if you don't plan on growing them from the get go?

And puzzle me this , where are you going to get your preferred salt when the trucks stop running.. you say if half of what they say about organic is true .. well it's not true that they are any more nutritious than regular fruits and vegetables, what they are is they have less chemical residue that can harm some people .. You grow the exact same thing in the exact same soil you get the exact same nutrition only less of it if you grow organically. Organic produces on average 40% less yield per acre than the same stuff grown with chemical inputs and you get more pest damage .

but what choice will we have if we can't get the chemicals . I posted the charts over in the spacing thread.. you see how yields climbed when they started using chemical fertilizers as a common practice .. you stop using them, you go back to the organic sustainable way of farming relying on compost and natural inputs, yields drop to where they were when that was how all food was grown.


----------



## crabapple

This is where doing, not just talking helps so much.
I gave away a lot of fruits & vegetables every year & I produces more than most chart that are on the net to show how great gardening is.
I know fruits,nuts & vegetables as well as meat can be produced on 30 acres for 50 people. Leaving room for timber, firewood,greenhouses,wood & metal shops,smelting metals & homes.
Salt will have to be stored before the fall, but sugar,honey,syrup,grains & oil are not 
impossible to be home make. I will miss cinnamon more then salt.
I will store both, but nothing will last forever.


----------



## DrPrepper

AmmoSgt said:


> Just to be clear.. I have not posted any youtube videos on doing surgery of any kind and I have never claimed to be able to do surgery.. total strawman argument.
> 
> .


AmmoSgt,
First of all, I apologize if you thought I was implying you were posting youtube videos for appendectomies - your post discussing being prepared reminded me of other posts that I've read here and in other places regarding some of the do-it-yourself surgery lessons.

I think there are some things the average person can do- such as apply a pressure dressing, bring down a fever, etc. It's when I hear people discussing performing surgical procedures, or even sewing up a deep laceration that I become very doubtful. If the "surgery" didn't kill the patient, the infection and/or bleeding that follows probably would.

You mentioned people not having things in their FAK that they don't know how to use, and I have to respectfully disagree with that. Having a comprehensive first aid kit is great. That way, when a person gets hurt, the person who DOES know how to use the supplies won't have to use their own supplies to help. In the military, we were taught when rendering assistance to others, always use THEIR supplies first to preserve your own.

:soapbox2:


----------



## DrPrepper

crabapple said:


> .I will miss cinnamon more then salt.
> I will store both, but nothing will last forever.


If you could get a _Cinnamomum verum_ tree to grow in your yard, you would have cinnamon in perpetuity! (At least, Ceylon cinnamon)


----------



## AmmoSgt

DrDianaAnderson said:


> AmmoSgt,
> First of all, I apologize if you thought I was implying you were posting youtube videos for appendectomies - your post discussing being prepared reminded me of other posts that I've read here and in other places regarding some of the do-it-yourself surgery lessons.
> 
> I think there are some things the average person can do- such as apply a pressure dressing, bring down a fever, etc. It's when I hear people discussing performing surgical procedures, or even sewing up a deep laceration that I become very doubtful. If the "surgery" didn't kill the patient, the infection and/or bleeding that follows probably would.
> 
> You mentioned people not having things in their FAK that they don't know how to use, and I have to respectfully disagree with that. Having a comprehensive first aid kit is great. That way, when a person gets hurt, the person who DOES know how to use the supplies won't have to use their own supplies to help. In the military, we were taught when rendering assistance to others, always use THEIR supplies first to preserve your own.
> 
> :soapbox2:


That's a very good point, but like you mentioned above due to past experiences with online medical advice knee jerk "don't touch that'll you put your eye out" kicks in followed by vract:vract:vract: response "because Rambo did it with a rusty nail and bailing wire.. didn't even leave a scar.. can't be that hard."


----------



## terri9630

DrDianaAnderson said:


> If you could get a _Cinnamomum verum_ tree to grow in your yard, you would have cinnamon in perpetuity! (At least, Ceylon cinnamon)


You can get sugar from lots of trees, not just maple. Unfortunately for those in my area, it takes lots of pine and juniper sap to get a decent syrup according to info I've been reading. I'd have to have a tap in every tree on our place.


----------



## crabapple

DrDianaAnderson said:


> If you could get a _Cinnamomum verum_ tree to grow in your yard, you would have cinnamon in perpetuity! (At least, Ceylon cinnamon)


Thank you.
I am not sure that the fall will happen in the next 40 years.
I know many of the prepper are surprised that it has not happened.
I think the ruling class are walking a tight rope & are set to bring the economic back on our backs. So there will be a lot of salt & Ascorbic acid stored away in that time.

But back to Ceylon Cinnamon tree, I could keep it in a 12 foot green house for a time, but if global warming is fake, then it may not last long.
Espalier may help, but I am not sure.

Cinnamon or Camphor Tree
Grown in USDA zones 8a through 10, Cinnamomum camphora is commonly called cinnamon tree or camphor tree. Grown for the camphor oil distilled from its trunks and branches, it reaches a mature height of 25 to 75 feet with an 8-foot spread. Oval leaves reach 1 to 4 inches in length, emerging a dusty burgundy color. Crushed in your hand, they release the characteristic camphor smell. Tiny white flowers are followed by clusters of pea-sized fruit that turns from red to black. A drought-tolerant plant, the cinnamon tree tolerates soil pH from 4.3 to 8, prefers full sun to partial shade and survives temperatures as low as 10 degrees F. Used as lumber, the insect-repellent wood displays striking red


----------



## AmmoSgt

terri9630 said:


> You can get sugar from lots of trees, not just maple. Unfortunately for those in my area, it takes lots of pine and juniper sap to get a decent syrup according to info I've been reading. I'd have to have a tap in every tree on our place.


Birch and Walnut are good BUT major catch to the whole thing.. the temps at which sap flows below freezing the night before rising above freezing during the day.. and only in the spring or thereabouts when the teemps are right and the tree is coming out of dormancy and figure a 20 to 1 boil down to get syrup
I've never tried it with wild grape vine, but I have drank from wild grape vine, t's a pretty safe source of water and it is sweet.. the problem is you have to cut it off at both ends to get it to flow killing the plant. Big think vine that runs way up in a tree , which most do. Once you know what to look for you will be amazed at how many wild grape vines are out there

Might just look for a wild bee hive http://northernwoodlands.org/articles/article/bee-lining-the-oldtimers-way-to-find-wild-beehives

http://beesource.com/point-of-view/adrian-wenner/efficient-hunting-of-feral-colonies/

http://www.blindpigandtheacorn.com/.../03/drinking-water-from-wild-grapevines-.html this website has it's own sound track of good ol' mountain boy blues by local groups it's a treat has some great articles on Appalachian folks traditions and cooking .. some amazingly good writing in parts .. I get lost in it every time I visit about 40 tons of nostalgia if you know the area






https://wildfoodism.com/2014/02/04/22-trees-that-can-be-tapped-for-sap-and-syrup/

http://www.tapmytrees.com/

Important warning warning Will Robertson there are grape look a likes that can kill you pay attention details matter


----------



## crabapple

Canada Moonseed is listed in:
Peterson Field Guide of Venomous Animals & Poisonous Plants page 190-Blue & black
fruit on vines.

As for trees that you can get sugar from I just found this out the other day.
Sugar maple (Acer saccharum)
The sugar maple yields the highest volume and concentration of sap, making it a superior candidate for tapping. Its sugar content is approximately 2.0%.
Black maple (Acer nigrum)
Black maples produce as much sweet sap as sugar maples. The trees closely resemble sugar maples and can be distinguished by their leaves. 
Red maple (Acer rubrum)
Sap yields from red maples are generally lower than those from sugar maples, although some tapping operations utilize only red maples. The trees bud out earlier in the spring, which may reduce syrup quality near the end of sugaring season.
Silver maple (Acer saccharinum)
Like red maples, silver maples bud out earlier in the spring and have a lower sugar content than sugar maples (1.7% compared to 2.0%).
Norway maple (Acer platanoides)
Native to Europe, Norway maples are now considered invasive throughout much of the United Sates. They are not as sweet as sugar maples, yet can be tapped regardless.
Boxelder (Acer negundo)
Also known as Manitoba maple, boxelders can be found growing in urban areas and along roadsides. They’re not recommended as a first choice for sugar production, although maple producers in the Canadian prairies rely almost exclusively on boxelders for their sap.
Bigleaf maple (Acer macrophyllum)
Bigleaf maple is the main species of maple growing between central California and British Columbia. Native Americans have tapped these trees for centuries, and although the sugar content and sap flow are less than those from sugar maples, these trees can still provide a commercially viable source of syrup for the Pacific Coast.
Canyon maple, big tooth maple (Acer grandidentatum)
These trees are found primarily throughout the Rocky Mountain states. They also grow in Texas, where they are referred to as Uvalde bigtooth maples. 
Rocky Mountain maple (Acer glabrum)
Rocky Mountain maples are native to western North America, and have been used traditionally by various groups, including the Plateau Natives.
Gorosoe (Acer mono)
Gorosoe, which translates to “The tree that is good for the bones,” is the most commonly tapped maple tree in Korea. The sap is usually consumed fresh as a beverage, and not boiled down to a syrup.
Butternut, white walnut (Juglans cinerea)
The butternut produces a sap that yields roughly 2% sugar – similar to sugar maples. The timing and total volume of sap are also comparable to sugar maples.
Black walnut (Juglans *****)
The black walnut tree is a valuable timber species, whose sap flows in autumn, winter, and spring. It is more common in the Midwest than in the Northeastern United States.
Heartnut (Juglans ailantifolia)
A cultivar of Japanese walnuts, heartnuts have sugar contents comparable to sugar maples, but produce much less sap.
English walnut (Juglans regia)
These are the walnuts commonly eaten and purchased from supermarkets. They are not typically found in the Eastern United States, but rather are grown most abundantly in California. English walnut trees can be tapped successfully, especially when subjected to a freezing winter and spring.
Paper birch (Betula papyrifera)
The paper birch has a lower sugar content than sugar maple (less than 1%), but is the sweetest of the birch trees.
Yellow birch (Betula alleghaniensis)
The yellow birch tree has been found to have a higher mineral composition, lower sugar content, and a higher ORAC value (measure of antioxidant capacity) than sugar maple.
Black birch (Betula lenta)
Native to eastern North America, black birch is most popular for its use in making birch beer. And, as this list suggests, the black birch can be tapped.
River birch (Betula *****)
Found growing abundantly in the southeastern United States, and planted as an ornamental in the Northeast, the river birch can successfully be tapped.
Gray birch (Betula populifolia)
Gray birch is more of a shrub than a tree, but may be tapped if it grows large enough.
European white birch (Betula pendula)
Native to Europe, and grown as an ornamental in urban and suburban areas of the United States, European white birch can be tapped.
Sycamore (Platanus occidentalis)
Native to North America, the sycamore tree has a lower sugar content than sugar maple, yet is reported to produce a syrup that exudes a butterscotch flavor.
Ironwood, hophornbeam (Ostrya virginiana)
These trees produce a sap later in the spring, although the sugar content and volume are much less than those from birch trees.

And there you have it – a list of 22 trees that can be tapped. This is by no means an exhaustive list.


----------



## terri9630

AmmoSgt said:


> Birch and Walnut are good BUT major catch to the whole thing.. the temps at which sap flows below freezing the night before rising above freezing during the day.. and only in the spring or thereabouts when the teemps are right and the tree is coming out of dormancy and figure a 20 to 1 boil down to get syrup
> I've never tried it with wild grape vine, but I have drank from wild grape vine, t's a pretty safe source of water and it is sweet.. the problem is you have to cut it off at both ends to get it to flow killing the plant. Big think vine that runs way up in a tree , which most do. Once you know what to look for you will be amazed at how many wild grape vines are out there
> 
> Might just look for a wild bee hive http://northernwoodlands.org/articles/article/bee-lining-the-oldtimers-way-to-find-wild-beehives
> 
> http://beesource.com/point-of-view/adrian-wenner/efficient-hunting-of-feral-colonies/
> 
> http://www.blindpigandtheacorn.com/.../03/drinking-water-from-wild-grapevines-.html this website has it's own sound track of good ol' mountain boy blues by local groups it's a treat has some great articles on Appalachian folks traditions and cooking .. some amazingly good writing in parts .. I get lost in it every time I visit about 40 tons of nostalgia if you know the area
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.tapmytrees.com/
> 
> Important warning warning Will Robertson there are grape look a likes that can kill you pay attention details matter


I'm allergic to bees and there's no grape vines here. Might be helpful to someone else though.


----------



## BillM

*I learned*

I learned "Advanced first Aid" in the Boy Scouts 54 years ago.

I can do a tracheotomy if I have a boy scout kerchief, a Scout knife and a fountain pen !


----------



## terri9630

BillM said:


> I learned "Advanced first Aid" in the Boy Scouts 54 years ago.
> 
> I can do a tracheotomy if I have a boy scout kerchief, a Scout knife and a fountain pen !


Boy scouts carry fountain pens? In the girl scouts we were taught to use our trusty pocket knife and a straw or spit wad shooter (aka ball point pen).


----------



## crabapple

*Bsa 2004*



terri9630 said:


> Boy scouts carry fountain pens? In the girl scouts we were taught to use our trusty pocket knife and a straw or spit wad shooter (aka ball point pen).


Well in 2004-2012 BSA carry a first aid kit, cell phone, knife & first aid training.
Adult Leaders can carry a kit as large as their training.


----------



## hiwall

crabapple said:


> Well in 2004-2012 BSA carry a first aid kit, cell phone, knife & first aid training.
> Adult Leaders can carry a kit as large as their training.


They are allowed to carry KNIVES!


----------



## LastOutlaw

I'm guessing this thread could be closed since it has become so "Off Topic" .
Heavily Hijacked.


----------



## hiwall

LastOutlaw said:


> I'm guessing this thread could be closed since it has become so "Off Topic" .
> Heavily Hijacked.


You're no fun Outlaw!


----------



## LastOutlaw

hiwall said:


> You're no fun Outlaw!


 I know.... Ive been told that again and again...lmao!

But you could start a new thread called .. I dont know... Fruits and Berries?


----------



## camo2460

LastOutlaw said:


> I know.... Ive been told that again and again...lmao!
> 
> But you could start a new thread called .. I dont know... Fruits and Berries?


Outlaw why would you want to start a thread about California?


----------



## BillM

*If I was*



terri9630 said:


> Boy scouts carry fountain pens? In the girl scouts we were taught to use our trusty pocket knife and a straw or spit wad shooter (aka ball point pen).


If I was any older, we would have carried quills instead of fountain pens. :surrender:


----------



## LastOutlaw

camo2460 said:


> Outlaw why would you want to start a thread about California?


No, that thread would be fruits, berries and snowflakes.


----------



## lawlord

I think these gangs and people acting in this manner will be a big problem. Most people haven't prepared food and water. 

But how many who don't have food and water have guns? A lot. What are they going to do when they run out of food, are starving and are desperate?

I think people will be by in large acting like savage animals. We have some of the most comfortable society, one that doesn't think anything possibly could go wrong and everything is sustainable. We are all used to buying things from the supermarket every day etc. 

When they rob you or take your stuff they will think, I had to do it, I was forced to, or they may even say "you need to share, you are being selfish, why are you hoarding, we are hungry", they will blame you for your selfishness for having food, water or equipment. 

I wouldn't expect much from the majority of people in terms of their attitudes when the shoe finally drops. 

This is why I greatly recommend having a leave on foot/INCH or bug out bag ready to go, encase you have to leave your BOL. People are going to be roaming around looking for food, they will go door to door. They will be attacking people. 

I think you need a good emergency backpack, skills and knowledge and be in a remote location. Location is the best way to remove a lot of these problems, by decreasing the number of people around you.

I think we all should be prepared to get out of our places if we have to. I know not everyone is able to leave on foot etc. but I see many ways things could go bad and I would have to leave my BOL.


----------



## hiwall

All someone would need would be a slingshot. Someone sneaking up to your place? Put a marble in your wrist rocket slingshot and tap the guy on the head with that marble at full draw. He will lose all interest in anymore sneaking at your place and I don't care how hungry he is.
Not just one guy coming but instead 100? Then unless you have a belt-fed full auto squad weapon then you don't likely stand a chance and it will be too late to evacuate.
Odds of this whole scenario happening? Not calculable because it has never happened in the past so everything thing is all conjecture or guesses.


----------



## oldasrocks

I doubt if any group of hundred would ever show up. To stop any group target the leaders with a head shot. A good 17HMR with a night scope will do the trick 100 or more yards away.


----------



## AmishHeart

Really? A slingshot?


----------



## hiwall

AmishHeart said:


> Really? A slingshot?


Sure Amish. Everyone thinks they need to be a gunslinger


----------



## Flight1630

How about a spitball that might work?


----------



## AmishHeart

Ninja stars.


----------



## hiwall

Just for you Amish. Here is an excerpt from a story I am currently writing..................



> I saw a jackrabbit and got it with a single shot same as always. I grabbed the jack to hold up for Emily to see but when I turned in her direction everything changed.
> I saw what was obviously the same man we had seen many miles back now standing just maybe twenty feet from Emily. He had certainly followed us without us seeing him that whole way and now had snuck up on her as she was hunting.
> I dropped the rabbit and was un-slinging the rifle from my shoulder when I saw Emily draw her slingshot back and let fly the rock she had in the pocket. The man's head was a much bigger target than the rabbits that she had often killed with it. I actually was able to see the rock bounce off the man's noggin. He dropped like he was pole axed.
> I picked up the rabbit and ran to Emily. She was perfectly fine of course though she was shaking some.
> "Is he dead?"
> She asked in an almost whisper. I checked the man and he had a strong pulse.
> "No he is very much alive."


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

hiwall said:


> Just for you Amish. Here is an excerpt from a story I am currently writing..................


If a sling shot was all I had I'd give it a shot. It might work. But an accurate rifle round will definitely work. I like definite. Don't bring a slingshot to a gunfight. These days Goliath has a rifle.


----------



## crabapple

CrackbottomLouis said:


> If a sling shot was all I had I'd give it a shot. It might work. But an accurate rifle round will definitely work. I like definite. Don't bring a slingshot to a gunfight. These days Goliath has a rifle.


I will agree that a gun or rifle is better.
A slingshot is quiet & reloads are in good supply.
I like steel ball bearing for big game & marble for little game.
Marbles are cheat, unless you can get old bearing for free.
Bow & arrows are a step up, still a rifle for long range & a shot gun for in close.
Throwing stick are cheap, but you need to use them a lot, to get good at hitting
your target.


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

crabapple said:


> I will agree that a gun or rifle is better.
> A slingshot is quiet & reloads are in good supply.
> I like steel ball bearing for big game & marble for little game.
> Marbles are cheat, unless you can get old bearing for free.
> Bow & arrows are a step up, still a rifle for long range & a shot gun for in close.
> Throwing stick are cheap, but you need to use them a lot, to get good at hitting
> your target.


For small game hunting most certainly. I was referring more to the personal defense situation.


----------



## hiwall

We should be open minded about weapon options. I can not hit a buffalo with a slingshot at twenty feet so a slingshot is worthless to me. I'm so-so with a bow. I've tried a blowgun and I think with practice I could be fair with one. I have tried throwing knives many times in different styles but I am really bad with them. I can do pretty fair throwing a tomahawk. I have had some professional training with a bo or quarterstaff so with a walking stick or a broom handle I Can do some damage. I own a few swords but I have never trained with them. I have many knives but I have never trained in their use, I have only trained to counter knife attacks.
But I have practiced with guns of countless styles and models for all my life. I have taught gun classes for many years along with personal protection with firearms classes. I have shot rifles and handguns in competition. Obviously guns would always be my first choice but that does not mean I would not continue training with other weapons including makeshift weapons.


----------



## TheLazyL

hiwall said:


> We should be open minded about weapon options. ...


The young folks will have to handle the long range stuff. My shotgun will handle anything that gets within the range of my eyesight.

Unless it is a tank.

If it's a tank we're...


----------



## Woody

TheLazyL said:


> The young folks will have to handle the long range stuff. My shotgun will handle anything that gets within the range of my eyesight.
> 
> Unless it is a tank.
> 
> If it's a tank we're...


Never thought about a tank....

But we think alike on the scattergun. Especially when I first get up.. or are woken up really late at night. I know I won't have the pin point accuracy needed for a pistol or long gun... so... need that spread to help.


----------



## Pessimistic2

oldasrocks said:


> I doubt if any group of hundred would ever show up. To stop any group target the leaders with a head shot. A good 17HMR with a night scope will do the trick 100 or more yards away.


I'm with you there.....if ever the shtf the roving bands will likely not number anywhere near 100....and if you take out the leader, the rest will scatter, and find somewhere else to raid, as they will already know you are not an easy target.

If the shtf, the "urban wars" are probably not gonna leave many survivors anyway. 
Most "urbanites" seem to have this weird idea that law enforcement and the National Guard would rush to the rescue. Not gonna happen. They'll be too busy fighting amongst themselves to "rescue" anyone.

The .17HMR is pretty deadly...very good sniper choice, and nearly anyone can handle the recoil, except maybe a 5-6 year old. I prefer my old .270 but the .17 is a darn good choice, too.


----------



## tmttactical

Since we are talking Marauders and not guns specifically, I will only list the types of firearms and not their make or models I selected for repelling the uninvited.

1) High capacity 9mm pistol for home defense. (18 + 1)
2) Low capacity 9mm pistol for edc. (7 + 1)
3) High capacity 12 ga. pump shotgun. (14 + 1)
4) High capacity 9mm carbine for short range defense. (30 +1)
5) High capacity 308 semi-auto rifle for medium to long range defense. (30 +1)

I am too old to fight (hand to hand). To slow to run. I will reach out and touch you if required. 

Zombies and Doomocrats be warned! How to distinguish Zombies from Doomocrates. Doomocrats are still talking and are parasites on the host. Zombies require head shots, center mass works fine for Doomocrats. :rofl:


----------



## Pessimistic2

tmttactical said:


> Since we are talking Marauders and not guns specifically, I will only list the types of firearms and not their make or models I selected for repelling the uninvited.
> 
> 1) High capacity 9mm pistol for home defense. (18 + 1)
> 
> 2) Low capacity 9mm pistol for edc. (7 + 1)
> 
> 3) High capacity 12 ga. pump shotgun. (14 + 1)
> 
> 4) High capacity 9mm carbine for short range defense. (30 +1)
> 
> 5) High capacity 308 semi-auto rifle for medium to long range defense. (30 +1)
> 
> I am too old to fight (hand to hand). To slow to run. I will reach out and touch you if required.
> 
> Zombies and Doomocrats be warned! How to distinguish Zombies from Doomocrates. Doomocrats are still talking and are parasites on the host. Zombies require head shots, center mass works fine for Doomocrats. :rofl:


I'm in the same boat..."to old to fight, to slow to run!" I'll just shoot you and let the law (if there is any) sort it out later. Better you than me. I may be old, but I'm not ready to go just yet!


----------



## Caribou

tmttactical said:


> Since we are talking Marauders and not guns specifically, I will only list the types of firearms and not their make or models I selected for repelling the uninvited.
> 
> 1) High capacity 9mm pistol for home defense. (18 + 1)
> 2) Low capacity 9mm pistol for edc. (7 + 1)
> 3) High capacity 12 ga. pump shotgun. (14 + 1)
> 4) High capacity 9mm carbine for short range defense. (30 +1)
> 5) High capacity 308 semi-auto rifle for medium to long range defense. (30 +1)
> 
> I am too old to fight (hand to hand). To slow to run. I will reach out and touch you if required.
> 
> Zombies and Doomocrats be warned! How to distinguish Zombies from Doomocrates. Doomocrats are still talking and are parasites on the host. Zombies require head shots, center mass works fine for Doomocrats. :rofl:


Your KSG is actually capable of 22 + 1 if you use the Aguilla 12Ga mini shells. About double the power of a .45 ACP and a 3/4" hole. Not great for fifty yards but for inside the home distance they should do the trick. Only a couple of pumps will cycle the round but the KSG is one of them.


----------



## tmttactical

Caribou said:


> Your KSG is actually capable of 22 + 1 if you use the Aguilla 12Ga mini shells. About double the power of a .45 ACP and a 3/4" hole. Not great for fifty yards but for inside the home distance they should do the trick. Only a couple of pumps will cycle the round but the KSG is one of them.


The Aquilla ammo is on my list, just did not want to confuse some of folks by listing it. Great reviews on the "shorties" but hard to find and expensive. I load one 2 3/4" in each tube first and the rest are the shorties. you do know your firearms, not everybody would have known about the KSG or the Aquilla ammo.


----------



## AmmoSgt

Caribou said:


> Your KSG is actually capable of 22 + 1 if you use the Aguilla 12Ga mini shells. About double the power of a .45 ACP and a 3/4" hole. Not great for fifty yards but for inside the home distance they should do the trick. Only a couple of pumps will cycle the round but the KSG is one of them.


 Dang.. 22 + 1 got me beat.. my Saiga only holds 20 in the drum, but they are full sized buckshot, and the drums change out pretty fast... good thing I have a fall back, AR with a heavy barrel 24" upper and a 100 round Beta double drum and a Gat trigger heavy sucker for an AR the bipod helps













 mine has an equally legal Gat Trigger .. It fires a little slower , I prefer the control .. but slide fire is an option , an expensive option






and now they have speed triggers





 also expensive $200 and up for just the trigger

okay just so you know.. I threw Ringer in there.. if you don't know who Jerry Miculek is.. the guy demonstration the Gat trigger .. he happens to be the fastest shooter in the world . doesn't really need any fancy triggers






but not just fast






he shoots anything


----------



## Pessimistic2

tmttactical said:


> The Aquilla ammo is on my list, just did not want to confuse some of folks by listing it. Great reviews on the "shorties" but hard to find and expensive. I load one 2 3/4" in each tube first and the rest are the shorties. you do know your firearms, not everybody would have known about the KSG or the Aquilla ammo.


Have y'all tried lucky gunner.com ? I don't think they carry the Anguilla 12ga mini, but they have some really good prices on 
.223, .270, and .380 ammo, and they have the 9mm Aguilla FMJ. Also .17 Hornet.

http://www.luckygunner.com


----------



## Pessimistic2

Pessimistic1 said:


> Have y'all tried lucky gunner.com ? I don't think they carry the Anguilla 12ga mini, but they have some really good prices on
> .223, .270, and .380 ammo, and they have the 9mm Aguilla FMJ. Also .17 Hornet.
> 
> http://www.luckygunner.com


Aguilla....damn I hate auto-correct!


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

I want one of those saigas so bad I can taste it! Been drooling for a couple years but haven't got around to it yet.


----------



## AmmoSgt

CrackbottomLouis said:


> I want one of those siagas so bad I can taste it! Been drooling for a couple years but haven't got around to it yet.


You can get a some here for less than $10 https://www.amazon.com/Round-TUIT-T...rd_wg=d5Adr&psc=1&refRID=RSKN401RRN1Q93892ZD8

I use them all the time for all sorts of things ... I call my Saiga "Barbie" , custom gas system, breaching brake, AR style furniture with adjustable stock, holographic sight, laser, flashlight, front vertical handle we play dress up and accessorize and go shooting together...


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

AmmoSgt said:


> You can get a some here for less than $10 https://www.amazon.com/Round-TUIT-T...rd_wg=d5Adr&psc=1&refRID=RSKN401RRN1Q93892ZD8


I should but there is a lot on the list preceding it. They are sweet though. What a way to hold a position.


----------



## crabapple

TheLazyL said:


> The young folks will have to handle the long range stuff. My shotgun will handle anything that gets within the range of my eyesight.
> 
> Unless it is a tank.
> 
> If it's a tank we're...


Tanks!
IED's will stop most heavy equipment. vract:


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

If someone comes after me with an Abrams that's the moment I know for sure I missed some signs and failed to bug out in a timely manner.


----------



## Pessimistic2

CrackbottomLouis said:


> If someone comes after me with an Abrams that's the moment I know for sure I missed some signs and failed to bug out in a timely manner.


If a tank is the FIRST thing ANYONE sees, they are waaaay behind the curve!!! Jeeez!
As long as the Ham Radio doesn't go out, we should pretty much have a handle on what's going on. Regular media and the Internet probably won't last long if the shtf, but ham radio will be there as long as they can power the transmitters/receivers.
If the ham network goes out gonna have to rely on the dogs and the good ole Mark 1 Eyeball!!


----------



## crabapple

Pessimistic1 said:


> If a tank is the FIRST thing ANYONE sees, they are waaaay behind the curve!!! Jeeez!
> As long as the Ham Radio doesn't go out, we should pretty much have a handle on what's going on. Regular media and the Internet probably won't last long if the shtf, but ham radio will be there as long as they can power the transmitters/receivers.
> If the ham network goes out gonna have to rely on the dogs and the good ole Mark 1 Eyeball!!
> View attachment 16188


a lot of ways to stop a tank, they do best on hard flat ground.
Sharp drops & raise stop them, they need rolling hills & slopes.


----------



## Pessimistic2

crabapple said:


> a lot of ways to stop a tank, they do best on hard flat ground.
> 
> Sharp drops & raise stop them, they need rolling hills & slopes.


STOPPING a tank can be done, yes. But if you're not outta whatever "urban area" you live in, and the tanks are moving in, you're not likely to GET OUT to go to your retreat!

I'm retired, and depending on how things shape up over the next few months, I may just leave this little country town and move to my "retreat" permanently. Been working on the place for 25 years and I could move in "permanently" anytime. Depending on how crazy the loonies/BLM, etc. get now that the Admin is shaping up, we are living in very dangerous times...wouldn't take much to light the fire!


----------



## oldasrocks

Caribou said:


> Your KSG is actually capable of 22 + 1 if you use the Aguilla 12Ga mini shells. About double the power of a .45 ACP and a 3/4" hole. Not great for fifty yards but for inside the home distance they should do the trick. Only a couple of pumps will cycle the round but the KSG is one of them.


The min shell market has dried up. I can't find them anywhere. Do you have a source?


----------



## oldasrocks

Pessimistic1 said:


> I'm with you there.....if ever the shtf the roving bands will likely not number anywhere near 100....and if you take out the leader, the rest will scatter, and find somewhere else to raid, as they will already know you are not an easy target.
> 
> If the shtf, the "urban wars" are probably not gonna leave many survivors anyway.
> Most "urbanites" seem to have this weird idea that law enforcement and the National Guard would rush to the rescue. Not gonna happen. They'll be too busy fighting amongst themselves to "rescue" anyone.
> 
> The .17HMR is pretty deadly...very good sniper choice, and nearly anyone can handle the recoil, except maybe a 5-6 year old. I prefer my old .270 but the .17 is a darn good choice, too.


I have a .270 also but the 17 is quiet and will do the job just as well. I can carry 500 rounds of ammo with ease also. Easier to stay on target with a night scope.


----------



## Caribou

Inside the mini shells might be of some benefit as they should be quieter. I know, it probably won't make much difference. The Saiga will get that second twenty out before you have reloaded one side of the KSG. Both are great guns and if I ever have to reload one in a real firefight, I want Bruce Willis to play me in the movie.


----------



## Pessimistic2

oldasrocks said:


> I have a .270 also but the 17 is quiet and will do the job just as well. I can carry 500 rounds of ammo with ease also. Easier to stay on target with a night scope.


Don't know what you're paying for ammo, but .17 HMR (Hornaday) Mag, 17gr V-Max are $210 for 1,000 rounds via
lucky gunner.com


----------



## Pessimistic2

Pessimistic1 said:


> Don't know what you're paying for ammo, but .17 HMR (Hornaday) Mag, 17gr V-Max are $210 for 1,000 rounds via
> lucky gunner.com


luckygunner.com. ....da&n autocorrect!


----------



## AmmoSgt

Caribou said:


> Inside the mini shells might be of some benefit as they should be quieter. I know, it probably won't make much difference. The Saiga will get that second twenty out before you have reloaded one side of the KSG. Both are great guns and if I ever have to reload one in a real firefight, I want Bruce Willis to play me in the movie.


If you want a quieter shotgun using full sized sells and a better pattern and do not want the hassle of a NFA suppressor or the cost, ( suppressors may be coming off the NFA so all this may be moot ), take a look at this

http://www.range365.com/32-inch-shotgun-barrel-extension

http://www.metrogun.com/

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/83...tension-for-remington-12-gauge-rem-choke-blue

it's not as awkward as it looks

it has always been thus .. longer barrels reduce the loudness of the report by allowing the gas to expand more and there by cools and the gas has less exit velocity and pressure when it leaves the barrel. Sub sonic ammo does not have the breaking the sound barrier crack a bullet makes continuously along it's flight path until it drops below the speed of sound.

Also helps with recoil .. not only does the bullet play a part I how much recoil you get , for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction but the burning gasses are a surprisingly lrge amount.. just like a rocket engine burning solid fuel and exhausting out a rocket engine.. the longer the barrel the longer the bullet in in the barrel the longer the burn powder now gas propellant is providing pressure equally in all directions and basically not adding to recoil . it is only when the bullet leaves the muzzle and pressure, or more properly resistance in that direction drops to zero and you het the full force of the gas pressing back against the bolt. as the space behind the bullet expands in the barrel as it moves down the barrel and the powder stops burning the pressure drops and is lower when the bullet leaves.. this is common in long barreled 22's .. it would be uncommon in larger calibers ... in fact it is not uncommon in shorter barreled full bore rifles to get a muzzle flash which is partly from the fact the powder is still burning or is still hot enough to flash over on exiting the barrel .. it is also common in pistols they make special powders that aside from being fast enough to fully burn before a pistol bullet can leave a 4" barrel but are also specially treated to prevent the flash.. that flash can blind you shooting at night in the dark .

I have my "Favorite" hand loads using bullseye powder and Remington golden saber 185 grain for 1911's that don't flash much when shot out of a standard 1911 with a 5" barrel but when I use them I my Kimber Ultra Carry II with a 4" barrel .. it sounds like I popped a flash bang grenade and I can light up a whole room .. I call it imitating a 44 mag

switch to VV N 340 powder and the room is much darker when I shoot a 4" barrel a little but of red glow and the sound level drops considerably . still loud still hurts with no hearing protection still bad for your ears but not as bad and certainly not as much flash.. you can see for the second shot .. second shots when flash blinded can be a bad thing.


----------



## AmmoSgt

oldasrocks said:


> The min shell market has dried up. I can't find them anywhere. Do you have a source?


http://ammoseek.com/ammo/12-gauge/Aguila-shotgun?sl=1 3/4

here is the thing you have to consider .. fewer pellets and smaller pellets of "buck" shot if #1 is your idea of buckshot..

Having 22 rounds of a lighter load may not be a better thing than 12-14 rounds of a standard #00 buckshot load .. throw weight matters 5/8th of an ounce of shot V 1 1/4 ounce .. even if you almost double your shell capacity you are shooting slightly less weight of shot... and it takes you longer to reload and it is more expensive .. not knocking it it.. just looking at the facts

also see a lot of talk of feeding issues in some guns and that no autos can shoot them .. which makes sense since autos are tuned to expect a certain range of amount of gas or recoil to operate the system.

Also made in Mexico and may be hit by the 20% cross border tariff. you look at how much Aguila ammo there is for sale and then realize private ownership of firearms in Mexico is all but impossible and highly regulated... they ain't making that ammo for local consumption and just happen to sell it here in the states ... things that make you say "Hmmmmm"


----------



## tmttactical

I considered a semi-auto shotgun but the pump (KSG) won out due to the variety of shell it could handle. I figured I could always custom reload shells if it got real bad. This pump will load and fire just about anything you can find. Semi-auto shotguns can be a bit picky. Cut shells, wax shells, even marble or ball bearing shells will work in the KSG. I just did not want to trust a semi-auto. JMHO.


----------



## Caribou

It's a balancing act. I like the 00 Buck but the #1 Buck is supposed to be very effective. While the 00 Buck will penetrate better, any pellets will carry lethal power through more walls. The full size shells will have more pellets and more power. The short rounds give you the ability to deal with more intruders and they allow you to get back on target faster due to lower recoil.

Cost is high but a buck a round is average for defensive rounds in pistols. No semi-auto and most pumps won't cycle them so unless you have a couple of pumps or a break action it is a moot question. There is no wrong answer only a choice. Bird, buck, or slug? High power or low recoil? Are you worried about over penetration?


----------



## tmttactical

Caribou said:


> It's a balancing act. I like the 00 Buck but the #1 Buck is supposed to be very effective. While the 00 Buck will penetrate better, any pellets will carry lethal power through more walls. The full size shells will have more pellets and more power. The short rounds give you the ability to deal with more intruders and they allow you to get back on target faster due to lower recoil.
> 
> Cost is high but a buck a round is average for defensive rounds in pistols. No semi-auto and most pumps won't cycle them so unless you have a couple of pumps or a break action it is a moot question. There is no wrong answer only a choice. Bird, buck, or slug? High power or low recoil? Are you worried about over penetration?


Over penetration is a concern but being an urban captive, number of rounds is also a major concern. It is a balancing act. Don't want to shoot the neighbors unless they are the problem. I am trying to balance close range defense and also have the ability to retreat and have long range fire power. Budget also plays a major factor too. Suggestions are always welcome.


----------



## AmmoSgt

tmttactical said:


> I considered a semi-auto shotgun but the pump (KSG) won out due to the variety of shell it could handle. I figured I could always custom reload shells if it got real bad. This pump will load and fire just about anything you can find. Semi-auto shotguns can be a bit picky. Cut shells, wax shells, even marble or ball bearing shells will work in the KSG. I just did not want to trust a semi-auto. JMHO.


you can do it right, steel ball bearings with tear the crap out of your shotgun geeze louise

http://buckshotmold.com/ lead wheel weights .. Philadelphia the colonists melted down pewter plates and tableware https://www.amazon.com/Lee-Precision-Buck-Shot-18-Mold/dp/B005Y50H5O

small shot is made with this http://littletonshotmaker.com/ 



 




loadin' up shotgun shells isn't that easy.. got to have the right wads and shot cups to match up with the powder and shot ( an ounce of #8 stacks to a different height than an ounce of OO buck so you need different wads and shot cups so the whole load fits in the shell and doesn't leave any spare room or comes out to long ) so everything come out even when it comes time to crimp .. you change powder density or brand/ type you need different wads and cups the loading gear is cheap enough so are the wads and cups .. but you got to have the right ones

if you going to shoot marbles and ball bearings and tacks and pebbles you need to get a BP muzzle loaders and learn how to do this http://www.skylighter.com/ http://www.cabelas.com/product/shoo...ory/Traditional-Rifles-Shotguns/104641380.uts and keep in mind that a BP shotgun is built like a modern shotgun optimized for swinging with a moving target .. any of the BP 58 or 69 caliber smooth bores can also shoot shot as a well as ball .. even the rifles can .but it isn't advised the rifling really distorts the pattern.

http://www.skylighter.com/Black-Powder-Kits.asp

good people .. clear instructions .. strong on safety .. learn how to make BP and or fireworks and a variety of ingredients that make up some of the fancier aerial and ground displays the right way .. the safe way.. the chemicals to make BP ship the same way you ship salt and pepper and are just as legal and if you have priced BP lately .. you save a ton of money .. the priciest thing is the ball mill and you can get a cheap on at harbor freight and the lead balls here don't get the steel ones you do NOT want sparks and don't get the uranium ones they ain't round.. http://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2_8

I suppose you could use these for tracers http://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_8&products_id=482 artydance:

speaking about making your own ( none of this is cheap by the way ) http://www.corbins.com/kit-224.htm

what is inexpensive is this http://22lrreloader.com/design-details/ 




what is good to have is this http://sharpshooter-22lr-reloader.myshopify.com/products/prime-all-repriming-compound not just for 22 rimfire you can rebuild any primers boxer or berdan with this kit


----------



## tmttactical

AMMOSGT. Thanks for the video. Reloading is in my distant future plans. It is always good to learn about processes and equipment. My first weapon priority is to obtain the required firearms. Second priority is to obtain the required factory ammo. Third priority is to obtain the reloading equipment and supplies required to reload the various weapons. My budget helps determine my priorities. Everything has to be bought with cash, never credit, so the process is slowed somewhat.


----------



## Viking

CrackbottomLouis said:


> If a sling shot was all I had I'd give it a shot. It might work. But an accurate rifle round will definitely work. I like definite. Don't bring a slingshot to a gunfight. These days Goliath has a rifle.


And after, if getting knocked out, that person is likely to be very PO'd, much like I was as a pre-teen when a boy I knew threw a tree swing rope at my bike as I was riding by on the road, it caught the spokes of front tire and I went sailing over the handle bar and hit the back of my head on the pavement, when I woke up I wanted to beat the crap out of that kid, even though my head hurt and I was bleeding like a stuck pig. So I wouldn't be surprised if you knocked out someone with a slingshot, that they wouldn't be twice as pissed to hunt you down after they woke up, whatever it took to do it. At that time I was a 87 pound weakling that avoided violence, but taking that dump on the road really pushed me beyond my normality, I wanted blood in return, but I was restrained by people that had come to see how I was.


----------



## AmmoSgt

Alright time to get this sling shot thing worked out ..

I'm hooking you guys up with the pros .. diss the slingshot and die































think outside the box.. sling shots can kill and the only thing you hear is the target screaming


----------



## AmmoSgt

speaking of sling shoty things which is what bows are































with a little grinding hacksaw blades make killer arrow heads cut in about 1.5 inch lengths and grind to shape and sharpen


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

Again, if I have to get creative I will. I think sling shots and bows are great for stealthy game hunting but when it comes to self defense I'll take my long gun and a bunch of ammo over a sling shot and a bow any day. Not saying it can't be effective but if they were more effective than firearms we wouldn't have needed to make firearms in the first place.


----------



## Pessimistic2

Viking said:


> And after, if getting knocked out, that person is likely to be very PO'd, much like I was as a pre-teen when a boy I knew threw a tree swing rope at my bike as I was riding by on the road, it caught the spokes of front tire and I went sailing over the handle bar and hit the back of my head on the pavement, when I woke up I wanted to beat the crap out of that kid, even though my head hurt and I was bleeding like a stuck pig. So I wouldn't be surprised if you knocked out someone with a slingshot, that they wouldn't be twice as pissed to hunt you down after they woke up, whatever it took to do it. At that time I was a 87 pound weakling that avoided violence, but taking that dump on the road really pushed me beyond my normality, I wanted blood in return, but I was restrained by people that had come to see how I was.


A weapons grade slingshot can be deadly in the right hands. The problem with it is if you DON'T take 'em out, you're gonna have to shoot 'em anyway. Why not just shoot 'em in the first place and be done with it? If I hit you with a slingshot, MAYBE I knock you out, maybe not. If I hit you with the ole .270, you're DOWN...period. Hell, if you're close enough, and I hit you with the .380, you're DOWN. Slingshot? Not for me. Even a crossbow doesn't appeal to me much. Distant...I'll take the .270; Close in...the .380 will handle it. I don't own a shotgun, but when I head for my "retreat," I may buy a good, short barrel, pump in 12 gauge, to take with me. The only thing I would REALLY worry about if the shtf is some lone wolf or roving band leader that was also a "sniper." There is NOTHING that can save you from someone who can reach out and touch you from 800 yards or more. That's the "bad news." The "good news" is that the Left/BLM aren't likely to have that skill, and even surviving urbanite Conservatives aren't likely to, either. I have a place set up so far back in the mountains ya gotta pump sunshine in, been working on it for 25 years, and I can be self-sufficient from the instant I get there. (Well, me and the dogs, that is!) But lately, I've been questioning the "go it alone" plan. I'm wondering now if it might not be better to have at least 4-6 people making up a tight little group. You seem to have a pretty level head, what is you're opinion? Of course they'd have to work at setting their places up a bit faster than I did....doubt if they'd have 25 years to work on it! Anyway, let me know your thoughts on the "group idea."


----------



## BillM

*When I was in*

When I was in the third grade, one of the Causey brothers shot out the School bus windshield while it was going down the road , from the inside of the bus , using a sling shot and fence staples.

The Bus driver quit on the spot. :surrender:


----------



## AmmoSgt

David did a number on Goliath


----------



## HardCider

David's faith in God did a number on Goliath. While I'm a believer, I think I'll take out my Goliath's with modern hardware.


----------



## Woody

Fence staples... Fence staples... Now there is something even I never thought of! One of those bad boys hits something/someone it really would do some damage. Not as good as ball bearings for range but still... Have plenty on hand too. Now just need to setup some targets for a little practice with the wrist rocket.


----------



## AmmoSgt

Woody said:


> Fence staples... Fence staples... Now there is something even I never thought of! One of those bad boys hits something/someone it really would do some damage. Not as good as ball bearings for range but still... Have plenty on hand too. Now just need to setup some targets for a little practice with the wrist rocket.


Speaking of staples I posted it before but is seem to really fit here


----------



## Caribou

You're going to face down MS13 with a wrist rocket and a nail gun? Was that in Rambo XVII? Unless you live in HI, CA, or NY I'm sure you can do better than that.


----------



## Pessimistic2

Caribou said:


> You're going to face down MS13 with a wrist rocket and a nail gun? Was that in Rambo XVII? Unless you live in HI, CA, or NY I'm sure you can do better than that.


MS-13 comes rolling around I want a hell of a lot more than a slingshot & staples!


----------



## AmmoSgt

As I posted earlier Sagia 12 and a Gat AR


----------



## BillM

*All I need*



Pessimistic1 said:


> MS-13 comes rolling around I want a hell of a lot more than a slingshot & staples!
> 
> View attachment 16282


All I need is a couple of the Causey brothers on my side !


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

AmmoSgt said:


> David did a number on Goliath


Goliath of yesterday wasn't as well armed as the goliaths of today.


----------



## Pessimistic2

BillM said:


> All I need is a couple of the Causey brothers on my side !


These Causeys?

http://www.manta.com/c/mbdsckz/causey-brothers-enterprises


----------



## BillM

*That's*



Pessimistic1 said:


> These Causeys?
> 
> http://www.manta.com/c/mbdsckz/causey-brothers-enterprises


The very same


----------



## Mase92

I just spent a few hours reading thru this thread. This is why this is the best forum on the 'net. Great thread.

I have nothing to add yet, but the back and forth and insight.

Lastoutlaw, thanks for the eye opening video. More later.


----------



## Caribou

CrackbottomLouis said:


> Goliath of yesterday wasn't as well armed as the goliaths of today.


And there was only one of him.


----------



## FrankW

Havent been in this thread for a while... got kind of discouraged when I read some of the sci-fi novel fueled comments.

but again.... I urge, _even beg_, members to _conduct an actual threat analysis_.

Even if you are not an Army Operations officer who can do this intuitively in 2 minutes......you can still just by thinking through things slowly + logically see the fallacy of the stereotypical "marauder armies" being peddled on the 'net.

It's an absurd threat model that does not logically follow the limitations of the real world.

this kind of thinking is not helpful because when you give people an impossible goal to reach ( "Be prepared to repel roving armies!") they will stop doing whats reasonable and neccessary.

Again:

- Can there be large groups? Yes ,but more likely ad hoc mobs early in an event.. for the reasons outlined in my original post in this thread. So yes tactical skill and having lots of ammo is crucial for you to survive the long kinetic phase of a collapse... but the threat will not the 500 guys at same time..
- Can large groups of marauders be possessed of military quality post-event.. For a short time yes .. but again attrition will dilute...... and large group of human beings generally can coalesce long-term _only_ in the fuel and comms rich environment of grid-up situation...

Such "Hordes" if they live by plunder must always be on the move.. so this requires
significant transportation assets not only for themselves but for the plunder too.. bikes dont cut it! and even if they did ..in any event even they need a reliable source lots of fuel..... and Comms ..
and a reliable road network with all bridges intact for their vehicles.

These are the minimal but necessary pre-conditions for fielding a large moving force of plunderers... and they simply do not exist in the vast majority of realistic SHTF scenarios.

More on this in the 2nd post in this thread..


----------



## Pessimistic2

BlueZ said:


> Havent been in this thread for a while... got kind of discouraged when I read some of the sci-fi novel fueled comments.
> 
> but again.... I urge, _even beg_, members to _conduct an actual threat analysis_.
> 
> Even if you are not an Army Operations officer who can do this intuitively in 2 minutes......you can still just by thinking through things slowly + logically see the fallacy of the stereotypical "marauder armies" being peddled on the 'net.
> 
> It's an absurd threat model that does not logically follow the limitations of the real world.
> 
> this kind of thinking is not helpful because when you give people an impossible goal to reach ( "Be prepared to repel roving armies!") they will stop doing whats reasonable and neccessary.
> 
> Again:
> 
> - Can there be large groups? Yes ,but more likely ad hoc mobs early in an event.. for the reasons outlined in my original post in this thread. So yes tactical skill and having lots of ammo is crucial for you to survive the long kinetic phase of a collapse... but the threat will not the 500 guys at same time..
> - Can large groups of marauders be possessed of military quality post-event.. For a short time yes .. but again attrition will dilute...... and large group of human beings generally can coalesce long-term _only_ in the fuel and comms rich environment of grid-up situation...
> 
> Such "Hordes" if they live by plunder must always be on the move.. so this requires
> significant transportation assets not only for themselves but for the plunder too.. bikes dont cut it! and even if they did ..in any event even they need a reliable source lots of fuel..... and Comms ..
> and a reliable road network with all bridges intact for their vehicles.
> 
> These are the minimal but necessary pre-conditions for fielding a large moving force of plunderers... and they simply do not exist in the vast majority of realistic SHTF scenarios.
> 
> More on this in the 2nd post in this thread..


Good point. The much more likely scenario is danger from "lone wolves," or small groups of maybe 3-5. Large groups MAY exist at first, as they leave the cities, but they wouldn't last long. (Too many problems for large groups the maintain cohesiveness for long.)

I have what I think is a pretty good "retreat," been working on it for 25 years, and I can be "self sufficient" from the minute the dogs & I get there. Lately though I've been thinking about the advantages of bringing aboard some additional people...I'm not getting any younger and there is always the potential for life threatening injuries where being alone would not be good. (Dogs may be great companions, but they are severely lacking in medical skills!)


----------



## Caribou

Z, you are probably right. Preparing for a hundred is probably like preparing for zombies. It is an interesting exercise and a good way to keep the interest up. In reality, if they had much over a couple dozen attacking my home they would probably be tripping over each other. 

One to five attackers is a far more likely scenario and we see home invasions like that on a daily basis. Actually about eight thousand times a day. 

My defenses are focused around keeping them out of the house. The doors and the windows are the obvious weak spots. We have been here and new steel doors along with new windows, window coverings and polycarbonate storm windows are in the plans. Pick proof locks are also on the list.


----------



## BillM

*Five of them*



Caribou said:


> And there was only one of him.


If you read on into the next chapter, you will find that Goliath had a brother and three nephews at the battle who were giants.

Goliath's brother had six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot.

One of the nephews was likely Goliath's shield bearer , as the shield would have weighed around six hundred pounds.

The brother of goliath was slain by David's brother during the Philistine's flight back to Gath and the nephews all swore vengeance on David but they were all killed by Saul's mighty men over the next few years.

Remember David picking up five smooth stones when he went to the battle ?

Five stones for five giants !


----------



## tc556guy

AmmoSgt said:


> But here is the thing.. if what you say is true.. 90% that means very high odds that you and I will lose family and friends, if people actually believe that why don't we have threads about how to tell if somebody is dead? and how to properly inter the remains?
> 
> I have posted on a thread on here on where to get the Common Book of Prayer. that has the burial ceremony you most often see in Movies done by the Captain of the ship, the pilot of the crashed plane, the hero of the movie when his best friend dies.. and a link to a pastoral manual with similar services for other faiths here is another one https://www.vfwpahq.org/pdf/Chaplains-Resource-Manual.pdf
> 
> If "prepare for the worst but hope for the best" has any meaning at all, why isn't this discussed?


I don't know about anyone else, but in compiling my collection of prep-related e-documents, I included sections on dealing with the deceased, and a section on various religious texts including adding the one you posted a link to..thanks to that BTW

In reading through the thread I'm trying to think about real-world examples, not Hollywood portrayals of what people might have to confront in the SHTF scenario we're postulating. To the posters claiming that gangs of bad guys can't exist, what do you say about the various guerilla groups that create havoc in third world nations now? Or the historical precedent of armies that foraged off the land and its occupants as they campaigned or even winter camped? While we are not currently in a SHTF scenario, these rebel groups are usually able to move about, live off of and prey off the non-combatant populations. I think we've all heard of examples of these groups that in past years have slaughtered masses of people with little more than machetes, or kidnapped dozens of girls and held them in slavery. These groups don't have what we would think of as dedicated supply lines to sustain them, and yet they persist in their operations against their local governments and the non-combatant populations...

I found a sort-of interesting document that deals with rebel groups and their predatory practices in third world countries. While the document addresses the issue of drought as a motivating factor for these existing groups, substitute "drought" for SHTF or "societal breakdown" for the purposes of our discussion here

https://sites.psu.edu/bumbamukherjee/files/2016/02/Bumba_Drought_RebelViolence_JOP-24sjkow.pdf


----------



## Pessimistic2

tc556guy said:


> I don't know about anyone else, but in compiling my collection of prep-related e-documents, I included sections on dealing with the deceased, and a section on various religious texts including adding the one you posted a link to..thanks to that BTW
> 
> In reading through the thread I'm trying to think about real-world examples, not Hollywood portrayals of what people might have to confront in the SHTF scenario we're postulating. To the posters claiming that gangs of bad guys can't exist, what do you say about the various guerilla groups that create havoc in third world nations now? Or the historical precedent of armies that foraged off the land and its occupants as they campaigned or even winter camped? While we are not currently in a SHTF scenario, these rebel groups are usually able to move about, live off of and prey off the non-combatant populations. I think we've all heard of examples of these groups that in past years have slaughtered masses of people with little more than machetes, or kidnapped dozens of girls and held them in slavery. These groups don't have what we would think of as dedicated supply lines to sustain them, and yet they persist in their operations against their local governments and the non-combatant populations...
> 
> I found a sort-of interesting document that deals with rebel groups and their predatory practices in third world countries. While the document addresses the issue of drought as a motivating factor for these existing groups, substitute "drought" for SHTF or "societal breakdown" for the purposes of our discussion here
> 
> https://sites.psu.edu/bumbamukherjee/files/2016/02/Bumba_Drought_RebelViolence_JOP-24sjkow.pdf


OK, good point.....operating out in the country, what number of people do you think would make up the average guerilla group? If they come 75 or 100 or 200 strong, we're likely not gonna survive...I can't think of any way a small group (say 8-10) could handle that, unless the guerillas were incredibly stupid.

Your post does have me rethinking my thoughts about "adding a small number of people" in my retreat area, though. Perhaps being alone, out-of-sight, out-of-mind, is better after all, despite the risk of some life threatening injury (or heart attack). This is a tough one to call.


----------



## HardCider

I don't fear large groups. They are not sustainable and would probably self implode in short order. I fear the lone country boy with patience, common sense and a scoped deer rifle.


----------



## Caribou

HardCider said:


> I don't fear large groups. They are not sustainable and would probably self implode in short order. I fear the lone country boy with patience, common sense and a scoped deer rifle.


There are gangs within an hour of me and probably much closer. Between here and there I'd guess that more houses have scoped rifles than don't. I see both as viable threats.

The good news is that even if a hundred start heading this way (unlikely) that attrition will reduce that number.

The vast majority of men in Alaska, and not a few women, are hunters. There are more veterans here, per capita, than any other State. The group of one to five is by far the most likely threat but I wouldn't want to discount larger groups. To be realistic, whether twenty or a hundred determined marauders show up the outcome will likely be the same.

I can't worry about the golden BB. If someone, with skill, sets off in the woods and snipes me then only luck will help.


----------



## Pessimistic2

Caribou said:


> There are gangs within an hour of me and probably much closer. Between here and there I'd guess that more houses have scoped rifles than don't. I see both as viable threats.
> 
> The good news is that even if a hundred start heading this way (unlikely) that attrition will reduce that number.
> 
> The vast majority of men in Alaska, and not a few women, are hunters. There are more veterans here, per capita, than any other State. The group of one to five is by far the most likely threat but I wouldn't want to discount larger groups. To be realistic, whether twenty or a hundred determined marauders show up the outcome will likely be the same.
> 
> I can't worry about the golden BB. If someone, with skill, sets off in the woods and snipes me then only luck will help.


Yes....that's what I'd fear more than anything...someone who can reach out and touch you from 500+ yards, and you never know they are there. No way to deal with that, that I know of.


----------



## tc556guy

Pessimistic1 said:


> OK, good point.....operating out in the country, what number of people do you think would make up the average guerilla group? If they come 75 or 100 or 200 strong, we're likely not gonna survive...I can't think of any way a small group (say 8-10) could handle that, unless the guerillas were incredibly stupid.
> 
> Your post does have me rethinking my thoughts about "adding a small number of people" in my retreat area, though. Perhaps being alone, out-of-sight, out-of-mind, is better after all, despite the risk of some life threatening injury (or heart attack). This is a tough one to call.


I've always said that in a post-apoc situation, your best chance for rebuilding will be in a small village sized environment. Adequate manpower, usually a mix of agricultural and maybe even light industry. Out-lying farms and groups will never have enough people to do the work needed or to provide adequate security and will always be vulnerable in that way. In the colonial and westward expansion period those on the fringe of the expansion or in extremely isolated settings were always vulnerable from a security viewpoint.

You now sound like you want to go the other way towards a lone wolf set up. thinking that it'll render you more or less invisible. There's no way someone in a static position living their daily life doing the work they do to survive over the weeks and months of being there will remain invisible to others passing through. Raiding parties may consider you too small to bother with...or they may not. I think that's entirely the wrong direction to take your thinking, but if that's your wish then go with it.

I don't think there's a number you could assign to "guerilla groups". History might shed some light on numbers you're talking about when you go from "raiding parties" to "groups" to "armies". All three would be a concern to those who might be harmed....regardless of their actual numbers


----------



## Pessimistic2

tc556guy said:


> I've always said that in a post-apoc situation, your best chance for rebuilding will be in a small village sized environment. Adequate manpower, usually a mix of agricultural and maybe even light industry. Out-lying farms and groups will never have enough people to do the work needed or to provide adequate security and will always be vulnerable in that way. In the colonial and westward expansion period those on the fringe of the expansion or in extremely isolated settings were always vulnerable from a security viewpoint.
> 
> You now sound like you want to go the other way towards a lone wolf set up. thinking that it'll render you more or less invisible. There's no way someone in a static position living their daily life doing the work they do to survive over the weeks and months of being there will remain invisible to others passing through. Raiding parties may consider you too small to bother with...or they may not. I think that's entirely the wrong direction to take your thinking, but if that's your wish then go with it.
> 
> I don't think there's a number you could assign to "guerilla groups". History might shed some light on numbers you're talking about when you go from "raiding parties" to "groups" to "armies". All three would be a concern to those who might be harmed....regardless of their actual numbers


The key words are "others passing through." My retreat is very, very isolated, and it would be pure accident if someone "passed through." No reason for them to even be there in the first place, which is why I chose that location. The only thing I don't particularly care for is the possibility of life threatening accidents or a heart attack, without anyone around. On the other hand, the more people, the greater danger someone might notice you're there. It took me 25 years to get the place shaped up the way I want....slow, but I can be self sufficient immediately. Backups on top of backups....solar, water wheel gen, small diesel gen/two 2500 gal fuel bladders, he'll, I've got $50K tied up in just that, and slightly over $250K total. Stored MREs, seeds, etc., water's not a problem, and so far back in the mountains ya gotta pump in sunshine. Both my brother and I are helo pilots, flew in everything....be one hell of a trip on foot. He's not a survivalist....but my guess if the shtf he'd be landing in my yard pretty quickly. (Might end up with him as a partner if the shtf.) My way in is a little helo (slightly modified). I'd really hate to try to hike in. Long time in the works, lotta money, not exactly primitive living, but if the shtf it'll be worth it...and I've been thinking about heading out there in the next year or two and kinda just permanently "retiring." Want to wait until the pups are full grown, though.


----------



## TheLazyL

*Group of 100*
Security 24 x 7
Farmer's
Scavengers
Recon patrol(s)
Rest and relaxation possible.
Hard to attack the entire group.

Hard to move the group unnoticed.
Stuck in a fixed position.
Stripping the surrounding country side bare for resources. 
Hard to hide, must rely totally on strength of numbers and no surprises to prevent successful attacks.

*Group of 1*
With caution hard to locate.
Easier to disengage if discovered.
Possible to leave no signs of presence.
Easy to move on when local resources are exhausted.

You are it, security, farmer, scavenger, recon. No rest and relaxation.

*I would propose a group of 5 would be ideal.*
Still harder to locate then a much larger group.
Security while the other 4 are sleeping, resting or relaxing.
Easier to disengage if discovered.
Possible to leave no signs of presence.
Easy to move on when local resources are exhausted.

Too small of a labor force to rebuild a community.


----------



## tmttactical

TheLazyL said:


> *Group of 100*
> Security 24 x 7
> Farmer's
> Scavengers
> Recon patrol(s)
> Rest and relaxation possible.
> Hard to attack the entire group.
> 
> Hard to move the group unnoticed.
> Stuck in a fixed position.
> Stripping the surrounding country side bare for resources.
> Hard to hide, must rely totally on strength of numbers and no surprises to prevent successful attacks.
> 
> *Group of 1*
> With caution hard to locate.
> Easier to disengage if discovered.
> Possible to leave no signs of presence.
> Easy to move on when local resources are exhausted.
> 
> You are it, security, farmer, scavenger, recon. No rest and relaxation.
> 
> *I would propose a group of 5 would be ideal.*
> Still harder to locate then a much larger group.
> Security while the other 4 are sleeping, resting or relaxing.
> Easier to disengage if discovered.
> Possible to leave no signs of presence.
> Easy to move on when local resources are exhausted.
> 
> Too small of a labor force to rebuild a community.


LazyL, all your points are valid but I have determined the best path for me is Lone Wolf (provided Wife has passed). I do not feel confident in other people to trust to their ability to make the correct life choices. One person of the group captured can and will divulge all the particulars of the group, with enough painful incentive. One having to do all is difficult but only leaves one set of tracks and no group discussions.

I am basically a cynic, when it come to most folks. Ego, self interest and perceived personal slights all contribute to problems. I have never been involved in any group endeavors that did not facilitate conflicts. In a SHTF situation, I will have enough problems with day to day survival, I would not have the patience to deal with people problems.

As for injuries, I know I would have to deal with it on my own if possible. With a group, the possibility of injuries increases with the number of people in the group. From my perspective, the group is more a liability. JMHO.


----------



## hiwall

I have serious trust issues NOW and if SHTF then those issues would be magnified times a thousand. I don't really see how I would trust someone with my life and the life of my family. So any group including me would only be close family.
Look at all the stuff your friends do now occasionally that you think are dumb. Now consider if they do something later that would mean your death. Just way too likely a scenario.


----------



## AmmoSgt

All this seems to be predicated on some degree of mobility somehow... leaving tracks concealing your position .. how are you going to support yourself logistically ..

Humans are far more likely to trade than war .. man does not live by bread alone .. you are going to need enough human contact to be able to use any skills you have to better your situation.. trade what you have more than enough of for stuff you don't have enough of.. trade stuff you are good at for things you aren't good at.

I plan on setting up a trading post of sorts .. and I plan of hiring folks to do work in exchange for group protection, three hots and a cot, maybe some basic survival stuff or hand tools .. I pick up $100 bucks worth every other month or so when I drop by the big boxes or harbor freight.. nails screws nuts and bolts traps hand tools fishing and trapping gear water purification gear .. I need folks to gather and chop wood gather wild food .. it will all be temp labor, not even seasonal really.. et what I need done in exchange for some survival knowledge wild crafting and some basic gear.. I've already stocked along those lines

I may have already mentioned this but as an example http://www.specialtybottle.com/glass-bottles/vials/2dram-dropper-va2d and I have what I need to mix up fresh bleach ( it starts getting weak after about 6 months in fact anything over 4 months your really should double up the dose for water purification ) fishing hooks in bulk http://www.jannsnetcraft.com/live-bait-hooks/eagle-claw-074-live-bait-hooks.aspx pennies a piece snares are cheap- http://www.fntpost.com/Categories/T...res+Snare+Extension+Cables/Snare+Shop+Snares/ none over 2 bucks cheaper by the half gross cheaper still to make yourself from quality purpose proper components if you don't mind going about $100-150 out front for proper tools .. anyway

temp hire .. keep the important stuff opsec among permanent party trade with locals.. herbal medicines wild crafted food dried fish meats fruits nuts veggies , we have enough folks to be a hard target but IMHO more importantly plan on being a fair broker and fair trader and being useful to a larger community

IMHO best way to stay alive is to have a lot of people who need you alive for knowledge skills talents services .

If there is small scale armed conflict it will be a rare to occasional thing in my estimation and building a community would be the best defense .


----------



## tmttactical

AmmoSgt said:


> All this seems to be predicated on some degree of mobility somehow... leaving tracks concealing your position .. how are you going to support yourself logistically ..
> 
> Humans are far more likely to trade than war .. man does not live by bread alone .. you are going to need enough human contact to be able to use any skills you have to better your situation.. trade what you have more than enough of for stuff you don't have enough of.. trade stuff you are good at for things you aren't good at.
> 
> I plan on setting up a trading post of sorts .. and I plan of hiring folks to do work in exchange for group protection, three hots and a cot, maybe some basic survival stuff or hand tools .. I pick up $100 bucks worth every other month or so when I drop by the big boxes or harbor freight.. nails screws nuts and bolts traps hand tools fishing and trapping gear water purification gear .. I need folks to gather and chop wood gather wild food .. it will all be temp labor, not even seasonal really.. et what I need done in exchange for some survival knowledge wild crafting and some basic gear.. I've already stocked along those lines
> 
> I may have already mentioned this but as an example http://www.specialtybottle.com/glass-bottles/vials/2dram-dropper-va2d and I have what I need to mix up fresh bleach ( it starts getting weak after about 6 months in fact anything over 4 months your really should double up the dose for water purification ) fishing hooks in bulk http://www.jannsnetcraft.com/live-bait-hooks/eagle-claw-074-live-bait-hooks.aspx pennies a piece snares are cheap- http://www.fntpost.com/Categories/T...res+Snare+Extension+Cables/Snare+Shop+Snares/ none over 2 bucks cheaper by the half gross cheaper still to make yourself from quality purpose proper components if you don't mind going about $100-150 out front for proper tools .. anyway
> 
> temp hire .. keep the important stuff opsec among permanent party trade with locals.. herbal medicines wild crafted food dried fish meats fruits nuts veggies , we have enough folks to be a hard target but IMHO more importantly plan on being a fair broker and fair trader and being useful to a larger community
> 
> IMHO best way to stay alive is to have a lot of people who need you alive for knowledge skills talents services .
> 
> If there is small scale armed conflict it will be a rare to occasional thing in my estimation and building a community would be the best defense .


AmmoSGT, Great idea and I plan to lone Wolf until you get your "Trading Post" setup. Till then, I will keep my powder dry and myself safe.


----------



## TheLazyL

tmttactical said:


> LazyL, all your points are valid but I have determined the best path for me is Lone Wolf... One person of the group captured can and will divulge all the particulars of the group...


I'm more self reliant (Lone wolf) person too.

Very true. The more people in a group the more potential for "weak links".

Children will be stopping here for resupply, assessing the situation before moving on to the BOL. I'll be staying behind with the wife and the grandmothers, we can't keep up with the youngsters and are a liability (IMHO).

You got to go with what will work for you and yours.


----------



## TheLazyL

AmmoSgt said:


> ...I plan on setting up a trading post of sorts ... hiring folks to do work in exchange for group protection, three hots and a cot...it will all be temp labor...


I knock at the door of your Trading Post. I've got a axe and the willingness to cut wood. You offer me 3 meals, a cot and protection in exchange. Deal.

Over a period of time I've cut wood, hauled and stacked it where you told me to. My time is up, you have all the wood you wanted and you tell me goodbye. I knew coming into this that it was temporary. I thank you for what I received in exchange as you hand me a peanut and jelly sandwich for the road.

I take a slow roundabout way back to my group. I report what your Trading Post has in the area of resources, defense and weakness.

Any areas of Intel I wasn't able to gather about your Trading Post will be resolved by the next member of my group that knocks at your Trading Post door looking for 3 meals, a cot and protection...


----------



## AmmoSgt

TheLazyL said:


> I knock at the door of your Trading Post. I've got a axe and the willingness to cut wood. You offer me 3 meals, a cot and protection in exchange. Deal.
> 
> Over a period of time I've cut wood, hauled and stacked it where you told me to. My time is up, you have all the wood you wanted and you tell me goodbye. I knew coming into this that it was temporary. I thank you for what I received in exchange as you hand me a peanut and jelly sandwich for the road.
> 
> I take a slow roundabout way back to my group. I report what your Trading Post has in the area of resources, defense and weakness.
> 
> Any areas of Intel I wasn't able to gather about your Trading Post will be resolved by the next member of my group that knocks at your Trading Post door looking for 3 meals, a cot and protection...


Yeah sounds good to me .. weak and defenseless .. yeah okay Did I mention all my friends are vets and the family runs a bounty hunting/ fugitive recovery business ? I guess you didn't notice them ... because I am a freaking idiot , you must know this about me by now.. scroll back and look at the toys.

and I don't plan on taking just anybody or even offering everybody that shows up a jobs, I'm going to have strong bias toward women with kids or families and it probably won't be short time.. like I said semi seasonal-ish

But thanks for pointing out I don't have enough sense to take any security precautions .. I'll have to look into that.

Somebody that shows up looking for a job will get a blank stare ... there are no jobs for people looking for jobs ... there will be an interview , over coffee probably, I will want to know all the news and everything they have seen on their journey so far.

They will probably notice something is different .. so many people say they are going to start shooting folks when they are close enough to see... I'll be looking for medical personnel or other specific talents, artisans first... and like I said it's a trading post.. folks will need stuff they can earn it or trade for it, always interested in real gold jewelry .. I already make a little money wih that

compare these prices with your typical cash for gold storefront type place http://www.midwestrefineries.com/

still got a bad bruise from where I fell off the turnip truck....


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

I always planned on more of the lone wolf scenario for the short term and bartering services after that (situation dependent of course). I'm having to change that as I now have a a different situation (mostly in the form of a wife and older family members that for a couple reasons that kind of life won't work). 

I mostly prepare for short term scenarios (months to about 2 years). What we have after may look very different than what we have now but I do think we will pull together and stabilize after a period of time. 

Whatever happens I plan to keep my head down for an extended period of wrol. After that it's mettc dependent. I don't think AmmoSgt's plan of a trading post is a bad one. Like all endeavors in that scenario it will have its challenges but done right with good defense and correct manipulation of the local powers that be I can see it being enough of a value add to local economy to where it's in the best interest of local entities to be hands off. If we get to the point where we all aren't completely desperate I think a trading post has a better than average chance. 

I think my ideal scenario is a group of mostly self sufficient farmers with enough manpower to be able to field a relatively sufficient force (maybe 20-40 depending on skill level) of capable fighters with a solid well rehearsed defensive plan and trade and assistance pacts with other similar communities. Add an Intel system of some sort to see threats coming, a bug out bag and a hidey hole. Throughout history that has been a community set up that seems to mostly have worked. Sure, any day a longer stronger force can come wipe you out but that's true in any other solution as well. The key is Intel and the ability to pick your battles and having enough goods stored off site to rebuild after locusts sweep though. Wouldn't be easy and adjustments would have to be made for specific scenario requirements but it's a base to build on.


----------



## AmmoSgt

Well .. it's not a hypothetical scenario here.. I got the place , I got to core people .. we know exactly who we are inviting in as the second ring/ junior members , we have the stock on hand, we have wood lots and the wild harvest plots nailed down and the approximate time to harvest them I say approximate because I am getting schooled in the vagaries of weather today it's going to be in the mid 70's might hit 80 this weekend and I got blossoms on the pear trees , nothing on the apples yet pecans, almonds and hazel nuts haven't even started flowers blooming across the road berries look like the should in Feb. bare nothing on the figs yet .. haven't been out to the asparagus yet

any way.. may lose the pears if we get another frost and that can happen as late as late March even early April

Nothing hypothetical I'm ready to implement if it hits

If you need security gear might try here: I use a variety of security and surveillance devices from these people http://www.amazing1.com/

I make some of my own stuff security wise... I hacked a bunch of those solar on at dusk off at dawn driveway lights pulled the guts covered the shut off sensor used dab of translucent finger nail polish to make the bulbs glow a fainter red just need hint of a red light.. hard to see in daylight but at night there sure seems to be lot of cameras watching you around my place and out aways .. you would never find the real ones spent the money and got a couple truly amazing night vision cameras .. hacked baby monitors I can hear things where folks think I can't I don't record and they are seldom on, listening to the wind gives me a headache but they are there if I need them/

just saying nothings perfect but someplaces are harder to sneak up than others


----------



## TheLazyL

AmmoSgt said:


> ...I don't plan on taking just anybody...


Trying to redirect again? I used the example of a woodsman because that was one of the tasks you, yourself indicated.



AmmoSgt said:


> ...I need folks to gather and chop wood...


Pretentious is a weakness too.


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

No matter what the eventual plan after things are at least a little more stabilized, it's my personal opinion that the initial head down period is going to be the most trying. It's good to have a plan when things go the direction of trying to rebuild. Trading posts, farms, services for hire, production of ammo alcohol honey and other goods, making shoes and clothes, etc all are good longer term plans to have in pocket. I'm sure none of those will be applicable in the early days of a crisis but very important as rebuilding starts to take place.


----------



## AmmoSgt

TheLazyL said:


> Trying to redirect again? I used the example of a woodsman because that was one of the tasks you, yourself indicated.
> 
> Pretentious is a weakness too.


Good God. we are talking fire wood I don't need 40 foot trees felled.

Not pretentious .. I am the employer .. you want to run things by committee or vote on things and sit around the fire and all sing songs.. go for it

My chosen structure is employer .that is why I specifically said I would be hiring workers and looking for talent... picking up downed branches and chopping them into camp fire sized pieces does not involve bringing down whole trees of green wood. I specifically said women and children .. we are a very long way from even having to split logs for fire wood around here and when that is needed I have battery pack chain saws and solar to charge them https://www.amazon.com/GreenWorks-G...qid=1487883121&sr=8-3&keywords=greenworks+80v and hydraulic splitters aren't talking about heating a cabin .. I have worn t shirt and sandals all winter had to put a sweat shirt on maybe 3 or 4 times it's 70 degrees here today

Employer solves a whole lot of organizational problems and clarifies the decision making process ...


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

AmmoSgt said:


> Good God. we are talking fire wood I don't need 40 foot trees felled.
> 
> Not pretentious .. I am the employer .. you want to run things by committee or vote on things and sit around the fire and all sing songs.. go for it
> 
> My chosen structure is employer .that is why I specifically said I would be hiring workers and looking for talent... picking up downed branches and chopping them into camp fire sized pieces does not involve bringing down whole trees of green wood. I specifically said women and children .. we are a very long way from even having to split logs for fire wood around here and when that is needed I have battery pack chain saws and solar to charge them https://www.amazon.com/GreenWorks-G...qid=1487883121&sr=8-3&keywords=greenworks+80v and hydraulic splitters aren't talking about heating a cabin .. I have worn t shirt and sandals all winter had to put a sweat shirt on maybe 3 or 4 times it's 70 degrees here today
> 
> Employer solves a whole lot of organizational problems and clarifies the decision making process ...


I've always been leery of battery operated heavy use tools like chainsaws. Have you used them a good bit? Not knocking them just asking for some experienced feedback to see if my assumption should be reconsidered.


----------



## FrankW

tc556guy said:


> To the posters claiming that gangs of bad guys can't exist, what do you say about the various guerilla groups that create havoc in third world nations now? Or the historical precedent of armies that foraged off the land and its occupants as they campaigned or even winter camped?


Sir, I respectfully disagree
"Guerilla Bands" are a false analogy and this is why:

It is a well established trusim of COIN operations that Insurgents only can exist for any lenght of time if they have the support of a significant proportion of the population..
Not 100% mind you but something in the double digits percentages as a minimum.
The vast majority of historically successful insurgencies also have in common the existence of a Nation State sponsor.

So they do not exist to plunder of the people but to fight the gov't.

The only notable exceptions to this are the _Janjaweed_ of Sudan which are actually armed and supported by the Sudanese gov't to harrass, oppress and murder as many tribesmen of a target minority as possible and Boko Haram.
Boko Haram operates in an environment totally different from the US.
Its is a landscape of a completely disarmed population which is very different from the US (for now)
When the population is disarmed the significant factors limiting large marauder armies (noisy pillaging via firefights and temendous attrition rates) simply dont exist.

So no paralell can be made for our domestic threat analysis.


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

BlueZ said:


> Sir, I respectfully disagree
> "Guerilla Bands" are a false analogy and this is why:
> 
> It is a well established trusim of COIN operations that Insurgents only can exist for any lenght of time if they have the support of a significant proportion of the population..
> Not 100% mind you but something in the double digits percentages as a minimum.
> The vast majority of historically successful insurgencies also have in common the existence of a Nation State sponsor.
> 
> So they do not exist to plunder of the people but to fight the gov't.
> 
> The only notable exceptions to this are the _Janjaweed_ of Sudan which are actually armed and supported by the Sudanese gov't to harrass, oppress and murder as many tribesmen of a target minority as possible and Boko Haram.
> Boko Haram operates in an environment totally different from the US.
> Its is a landscape of a completely disarmed population which is very different from the US (for now)
> When the population is disarmed the significant factors limiting large marauder armies (noisy pillaging via firefights and temendous attrition rates) simply dont exist.
> 
> So no paralell can be made for our domestic threat analysis.


We have groups of guerrilla bands in the form of gangs even now they are just held in check by law enforcement and society. Remove the constraints and they will expand. The only way they can survive is to take from others. They will lose a lot of members to violence but a widespread desperate situation will be a recruitment rich landscape. Some will get wiped out but others won't. History is full of violent groups raping and pillaging their way across a territory. A few recruits with basic military experience and some raids that expand their firearm collection and they will be a threat. Easily defeated by a concerted effort by better armed and more experienced fighters sure but numbers, naked aggression and brutality goes a long way to making up for lack of training. Cunning and smarts aren't the same thing but each are dangerous in the wrong hands.


----------



## Caribou

The larger gangs are known to send their members into the military for training. When their tour is up they come back to the gang with elevated skill in weapons and tactics.


----------



## tmttactical

We have a large membership group with a very large base of plans. To each his own, as each has a different situation or perspective. In my -- (self)-- esteemed opinion, The process will play out in this fashion.

1) First phase will be the governments failure to adequately respond to the crisis.

2) Second phase, after days/ weeks or possibly a month, wide spread looting and rioting will become a daily occurrence, violence and killing (okay killing is violence but other general violence not resulting in death) (just for you nit pickers --- LOL).

3) Phase three, home invasions and personal attacks occur daily.

By the third phase, you should have already bugged out if you had planned to leave or you should have become not just the "Grey Man" but you have to be prepared to become the "Invisible Man". 

I do believe there will be gangs roaming and new recruits will come from previously self respecting hungry people. Too many people who were not prepared, will be all too willing to become the wolf and turn on their neighboring sheep. During this phase it will be too dangerous and too soon for the "Watch Dog" to take any actions. 

4) Fourth Phase, this is the start of reconstruction. The gangs have dwindled in size and the people that endured (Prepared People) will start to venture out as the "Grey Man".

5) Fifth phase, this phase revolves around "Western Justice / Law" taking effect. This is going to be a very difficult phase for some (semi- liberals -- full fledged liberals did not survive) and a good time for justice minded people -- not legal minded people.

I plan to become "Invisible" until phase four and then become the "Grey Man" until the trading posts are established in phase 5. That's the plan in a nut shell, details not to be forth coming .


----------



## FrankW

CrackbottomLouis said:


> We have groups of guerrilla bands in the form of gangs even now they are just held in check by law enforcement and society. Remove the constraints and they will expand. .


Sir I respectfully disagree.
This is another false analogy.
Today's Gangs of criminals are not _constrained _so much by law and order but _protected_ by it.

This is because the Rules of Engagement for their prospective victims are so restrictive. 
Nowadays when someone is harassing you or a friend on the street with clear bad intent no one will blow them away because of lenghty prison terms awaiting you.. 
Or a car of dangerous looking young men yells threats at you and you know they are dangerous to your and your community but you cannot do anything since you are constrained by Law.
Drug smugglers crossing your property? You hold them via firearm you may go to jail ( its happened)

Todays criminal gangs are adapted to our current society and exploit its willingness to punish thier victims if they dare to defend themselves too early or too vigorous in the progression of a crime.

The criminal gangs are used to Law and Order constrain their potential victims who are forced to hold their defense until the very last possible moment (when its often too late and someone has suffered already).

But post-SHTF they will not enjoy that protection and their swagger will just earn them a quick bullet breakfast.


----------



## FrankW

tmttactical said:


> We have a large membership group with a very large base of plans. To each his own, as each has a different situation or perspective. In my -- (self)-- esteemed opinion, The process will play out in this fashion.
> 
> 1) First phase will be the governments failure to adequately respond to the crisis.
> 
> 2) Second phase, after days/ weeks or possibly a month, wide spread looting and rioting will become a daily occurrence, violence and killing (okay killing is violence but other general violence not resulting in death) (just for you nit pickers --- LOL).
> 
> 3) Phase three, home invasions and personal attacks occur daily.
> 
> By the third phase, you should have already bugged out if you had planned to leave or you should have become not just the "Grey Man" but you have to be prepared to become the "Invisible Man".
> 
> I do believe there will be gangs roaming and new recruits will come from previously self respecting hungry people. Too many people who were not prepared, will be all too willing to become the wolf and turn on their neighboring sheep. During this phase it will be too dangerous and too soon for the "Watch Dog" to take any actions.
> 
> 4) Fourth Phase, this is the start of reconstruction. The gangs have dwindled in size and the people that endured (Prepared People) will start to venture out as the "Grey Man".
> 
> 5) Fifth phase, this phase revolves around "Western Justice / Law" taking effect. This is going to be a very difficult phase for some (semi- liberals -- full fledged liberals did not survive) and a good time for justice minded people -- not legal minded people.
> 
> I plan to become "Invisible" until phase four and then become the "Grey Man" until the trading posts are established in phase 5. That's the plan in a nut shell, details not to be forth coming .


I like your analytic approach to this :wave: is matches mine and this is the kind of rational approach we should all adopt.

For simplicity I have divided a SHTF event into 3 major phases.

Phase 1.. uncertainty for most, preppers bugging out
Phase 2 everyone knows its on .......population centers are nearly empty and every day you are have to protect whats yours with violence... this phase lasts many many months until ..
Phase 3, nearly all the unprepared as well as some preppers who dindt have enough ammo are dead. population has sunk so low , we now have a new equilibrium between food resources (productive land) and people.. labor is short most anyone who is healthy and can do manual labor can earn his daily bread.. Still a LOT less law reminiscent of the middle ages of europe.

It is my belief that so many passionate arguments on prepping stem from folks thinking about different phases where of course different approaches matter...

Your phasing is as good as mine however just threw mine out as an example.


----------



## CrackbottomLouis

BlueZ said:


> Sir I respectfully disagree.
> This is another false analogy.
> Today's Gangs of criminals are not _constrained _so much by law and order but _protected_ by it.
> 
> This is because the Rules of Engagement for their prospective victims are so restrictive.
> Nowadays when someone is harassing you or a friend on the street with clear bad intent no one will blow them away because of lenghty prison terms awaiting you..
> Or a car of dangerous looking young men yells threats at you and you know they are dangerous to your and your community but you cannot do anything since you are constrained by Law.
> Drug smugglers crossing your property? You hold them via firearm you may go to jail ( its happened)
> 
> Todays criminal gangs are adapted to our current society and exploit its willingness to punish thier victims if they dare to defend themselves too early or too vigorous in the progression of a crime.
> 
> The criminal gangs are used to Law and Order constrain their potential victims who are forced to hold their defense until the very last possible moment (when its often too late and someone has suffered already).
> 
> But post-SHTF they will not enjoy that protection and their swagger will just earn them a quick bullet breakfast.


I hope you are correct but I will prepare appropriately in case you are wrong.


----------



## hiwall

BlueZ said:


> Sir I respectfully disagree.
> This is another false analogy.
> Today's Gangs of criminals are not _constrained _so much by law and order but _protected_ by it.
> 
> This is because the Rules of Engagement for their prospective victims are so restrictive.
> Nowadays when someone is harassing you or a friend on the street with clear bad intent no one will blow them away because of lenghty prison terms awaiting you..
> Or a car of dangerous looking young men yells threats at you and you know they are dangerous to your and your community but you cannot do anything since you are constrained by Law.
> Drug smugglers crossing your property? You hold them via firearm you may go to jail ( its happened)
> 
> Todays criminal gangs are adapted to our current society and exploit its willingness to punish thier victims if they dare to defend themselves too early or too vigorous in the progression of a crime.
> 
> The criminal gangs are used to Law and Order constrain their potential victims who are forced to hold their defense until the very last possible moment (when its often too late and someone has suffered already).
> 
> But post-SHTF they will not enjoy that protection and their swagger will just earn them a quick bullet breakfast.


I agree with this 100% and quoted you just so everyone could read it again.


----------



## Pessimistic2

hiwall said:


> I agree with this 100% and quoted you just so everyone could read it again.


Unfortunately, this is correct. The criminals have all the "rights," thanks to the Liberals, while victims or potential victims have virtually no "rights" at all. While it is true that all states have some form of "self-defense" law (sometimes called "justifiable homicide"), it is also true those laws are very tricky, and DO NOT guarantee you can depend on "self-defense" as your legal defense if you are arrested and face manslaughter/murder charges. Almost my entire family has been in law enforcement for generations, and I can tell you from personal experience that law enforcement personnel are nearly universally suffering frustration and disgust from the restrictions imposed on them via everything from the Liberal Supreme Court decisions to local judges & prosecutors whose only interests involve PC correctness and getting votes. The PC Libs have made an oxymoron out of the term "law enforcement."

This is the primary reason the "gangs" are out of control (and have been for decades); THEY (the gangs) can shoot with impunity, citizens cannot. THEY can bully, harass, but if YOU take matters into your own hands and respond with force, guess what, YOU are gonna be the one going to jail! THEY can organize, pull off robberies, etc. and all that police can do is "react," the police cannot be "proactive" and just go in and round 'em up & put them away. Is it any wonder the gangs are out of control?


----------



## Caribou

We all have benefit of the same laws. The criminals have learned how to use those laws and are willing to perjure themselves.

Studying your self defense laws is a prepping skill that can be done for very little. All you have to do is pull up your State laws on self defense. Read those through a couple of times and you will be ahead of the curve. At the bottom of this post I have a link. Follow that link and find their journal. You can read their journal from Volume 1 Issue 1 for free. Many innocent people talk themselves into jail, learn how not to or at the very least keep quiet.

If you have a few bucks to spend there are books on this subject. Ayoob is my favorite author on the subject but there are others that are very good. Next take a concealed carry class. Even if you decide not to carry the class is primarily a law class that could keep you out of jail. Finally, you might also wish to join the organization linked below. This will provide you with excellent training material and legal assistance if that terrible day ever occurs where you have to defend yourself.


----------



## Pessimistic2

Caribou said:


> We all have benefit of the same laws. The criminals have learned how to use those laws and are willing to perjure themselves.
> 
> Studying your self defense laws is a prepping skill that can be done for very little. All you have to do is pull up your State laws on self defense. Read those through a couple of times and you will be ahead of the curve. At the bottom of this post I have a link. Follow that link and find their journal. You can read their journal from Volume 1 Issue 1 for free. Many innocent people talk themselves into jail, learn how not to or at the very least keep quiet.
> 
> If you have a few bucks to spend there are books on this subject. Ayoob is my favorite author on the subject but there are others that are very good. Next take a concealed carry class. Even if you decide not to carry the class is primarily a law class that could keep you out of jail. Finally, you might also wish to join the organization linked below. This will provide you with excellent training material and legal assistance if that terrible day ever occurs where you have to defend yourself.


Link is missing, please repost it. For everyone's info, the state codes for every state are available online. Just Google 
"(Insert your state)criminal code" or Google "self defense law for (insert state name)."
For example, if you Google "Colorado Criminal Code" you'll come up with the following, and you can go from there, as many links are provided. (Findlaw.com is one of my own favorites.)

https://www.google.com/search?q=colorado+criminal+code&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

Good advice above in reference to CCW, those laws vary from state to state, and not all states have reciprocal agreements.


----------



## Caribou

Pessimistic1 said:


> Link is missing, please repost it. For everyone's info, the state codes for every state are available online. Just Google
> "(Insert your state)criminal code" or Google "self defense law for (insert state name)."
> For example, if you Google "Colorado Criminal Code" you'll come up with the following, and you can go from there, as many links are provided. (Findlaw.com is one of my own favorites.)
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=colorado+criminal+code&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari
> 
> Good advice above in reference to CCW, those laws vary from state to state, and not all states have reciprocal agreements.


The link is in my signature line and works for me but here it is in the body of the post.

http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.com/


----------



## Pessimistic2

Caribou said:


> The link is in my signature line and works for me but here it is in the body of the post.
> 
> http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.com/


Thanks....didn't show up on my now obsolete iPhone 5S....I gotta get a new phone!!!


----------



## hiwall

The bad guys Always have the Edge. They are always the ones to get the first strike. In any fight the first strike is the one that really counts. In many fights there only is the one strike and the fight is over. 
After SHTF it will be the same. The bad guy will shoot you from cover and you will just have to hope he is a poor shot if you are to survive.
The dry-gulcher has the edge and it is a big one.


----------



## tc556guy

BlueZ said:


> Sir I respectfully disagree.
> This is another false analogy.
> Today's Gangs of criminals are not _constrained _so much by law and order but _protected_ by it.
> 
> This is because the Rules of Engagement for their prospective victims are so restrictive.
> Nowadays when someone is harassing you or a friend on the street with clear bad intent no one will blow them away because of lenghty prison terms awaiting you..
> Or a car of dangerous looking young men yells threats at you and you know they are dangerous to your and your community but you cannot do anything since you are constrained by Law.
> Drug smugglers crossing your property? You hold them via firearm you may go to jail ( its happened)
> 
> Todays criminal gangs are adapted to our current society and exploit its willingness to punish thier victims if they dare to defend themselves too early or too vigorous in the progression of a crime.
> 
> The criminal gangs are used to Law and Order constrain their potential victims who are forced to hold their defense until the very last possible moment (when its often too late and someone has suffered already).
> 
> But post-SHTF they will not enjoy that protection and their swagger will just earn them a quick bullet breakfast.


And I hope that post-SHTF, you'll require members of your small law-abiding society to show more criminal intent than simply trading some bad words before deadly force is authorized.


----------



## Pessimistic2

hiwall said:


> The bad guys Always have the Edge. They are always the ones to get the first strike. In any fight the first strike is the one that really counts. In many fights there only is the one strike and the fight is over.
> After SHTF it will be the same. The bad guy will shoot you from cover and you will just have to hope he is a poor shot if you are to survive.
> The dry-gulcher has the edge and it is a big one.


True......ambushes rarely work out well for the victim. MAYBE if your dog(s) alert you, but even that isn't guaranteed. A dry gulcher that's 2-300 yards away or farther, is not gonna be noticed by the dog(s). There really is no way to deal with someone who can reach out and touch you from long distance. Isolation is about it. Took me a while (no Google Earth back then!) to find a place, but my "retreat" is about as isolated as you can get.....never tried to hike in, everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) was flown in by helo, and we're talking a loooong process here...expensive, too. Hell, I'm not even sure one COULD "hike in" due to the intervening terrain. Nearest highway is over 40 miles, nearest town more like 60.

Unfortunately, most "preppers" don't have the good fortune to be financially able to do this. My "retreat" is constantly evolving, as new technology becomes available.....not a "primitive" operation, four water sources, three power generation units, huge septic tank, very comfortable log home, and I own the entire "valley," yada, yada, yada. Even now I'm looking to replace the "water wheel generator," as newer, more efficient tech is now available. The solar system just went in 4 years ago, and even it could now use an upgrade! Ham radio antenna on top of the mountain, but it's a "dead zone" for cell reception, and once communication systems go down, AM Radio & the Ham Network will be it, and I wouldn't even count on AM Radio to be around for long! So, the good news is complete isolation.....and the bad news is complete isolation! No reason for anyone else to be within 40 miles of the place, but also no help available in case of life-threatening accident or heart attack. If the shtf, my brother will PROBABLY become an instant convert and be landing in my back yard. He helped me get my "retreat" built, equipment flown in, etc., but he doesn't believe things will ever reach the "shtf level." I suppose from his point of view, it is a stretch (hell, I've been working on the place for 25 years now), but like I keep telling him, you can slide down the side of a mountain a long time, but if you hit the cliff, everything goes to hell RIGHT NOW, and there is no way to recover!
All it would take is for several riots across America to break out simultaneously and instead of tearing up their own neighborhoods, for the rioters to head out to the suburbs to do their raping, robbing, looting, arson, murder/assaults....and that would pretty much create a "cliff," and we'd be in the middle of shtf RIGHT NOW! Personally, I do not find that to be a far fetched scenario at all.
My brother is of the opinion that law enforcement, the National Guard, Homeland Security, regular military, etc., would never let it get that far out of hand. My opinion is that LE, NG, HS, RM, etc., would end up fighting amongst themselves and be completely useless.


----------



## hiwall

> My brother is of the opinion that law enforcement, the National Guard, Homeland Security, regular military, etc., would never let it get that far out of hand.


So far history says he is correct. But the world changes everyday so who knows:dunno:


----------



## Pessimistic2

hiwall said:


> So far history says he is correct. But the world changes everyday so who knows:dunno:


True historically, but then historically the rioters have never attacked the suburbs either. That would be a game changer for sure. I'm also thinking the country has never been this polarized, either. Somehow I just don't think things would play out as they have "historically." Hope I'm wrong, but I'd not want to bet my life on it!


----------



## AmishHeart

Just read in our local newspaper today that plans are being written up to declare our village a "sanctuary city" for undocumented immigrants. Our whole state has a bill in to do the same. I say the marauders will be living amongst us.


----------



## Pessimistic2

AmishHeart said:


> Just read in our local newspaper today that plans are being written up to declare our village a "sanctuary city" for undocumented immigrants. Our whole state has a bill in to do the same. I say the marauders will be living amongst us.


That is insane! Jeeez, why don't we just start keeping foxes to guard the chicken coop!


----------



## Pessimistic2

AmishHeart said:


> Just read in our local newspaper today that plans are being written up to declare our village a "sanctuary city" for undocumented immigrants. Our whole state has a bill in to do the same. I say the marauders will be living amongst us.


What part of "illegal" immigrants do they not understand? And "aiding the illegals" is itself a crime....it's called "aiding & abetting," and if you do it with intent to break the law it could also be called "accomplice before/after the fact," or even "obstruction of justice." I would really like to see a few of these idiots arrested, prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced to a year in jail.....bet the rest of them would think twice about their "sanctuary cities!"


----------



## Caribou

Pessimistic1 said:


> True historically, but then historically the rioters have never attacked the suburbs either. That would be a game changer for sure. I'm also thinking the country has never been this polarized, either. Somehow I just don't think things would play out as they have "historically." Hope I'm wrong, but I'd not want to bet my life on it!


If you only look at U.S. history then okay. If you look at world history, and accept that America is not immune, then you can find many examples of collapse. Rome, England, Spain, and even the Dutch were world powers. Of those only England was not invaded and they were under attack and only got by, by the skin on their teeth.

It is not so much that I believe that America is going to collapse as that I believe that it is possible.

You have a really great BIL. There are a number of equally remote locations here and I desired one myself for many years. I'd still would like a remote location to raise bees.


----------



## Pessimistic2

Caribou said:


> If you only look at U.S. history then okay. If you look at world history, and accept the America is not immune, then you can find many examples of collapse. Rome, England, Spain, and even the Dutch were world powers. Of those only England was not invaded and they were under attack and only got by, by the skin on their teeth.
> 
> It is not so much that I believe that America is going to collapse as that I believe that it is possible.
> 
> You have a really great BIL. There are a number of equally remote locations here and I desired one myself for many years. I'd still would like a remote location to raise bees.


Took me a while to find the type of location I wanted....no computers or Google Earth back then. Bought the entire valley, 580 acres. U-shaped, and I'm backed right up in the U, valley is spread out in front of me, facing SW. Been an evolving setup (25 yes worth), cost to buy the valley was fairly expensive initially, but very low property tax. Like I said, I'm not into "primitive digs," have a two bdrm log cabin, and a monstrous 20KW Solar unit, backup diesel gen, backup water turbine gen...redundant I know, but I don't want to be without power. Four water sources, two deep wells, natural spring, and the creek. The "bad part" was everything including the proverbial kitchen sink had to be flown in by helo, the "good part" is the place is so isolated there is NO reason for anyone else to ever stumble up on it. Got plenty of room for crops, good hunting, trapping, not so much on the fishing. Mostly what I have laid in are tools, condiments, seeds, and MREs (which get swapped out about every 4-5 years). Actually the hardest damn things to fly in were the fuel bladders for the diesel (two 2500 gal bladders)....you know how HEAVY those things are? Had to have two additional 500 gal bladders for helo fuel. Jesus! Also have a 1500 gal bladder for water, and a huge septic tank. And yes, it took a while to "get it all together," and a WHOLE LOT of $$$$. I thought we were NEVER gonna get done bringing in bags of cement. Fortunately both my brother and I are pilots (he owns a small cargo operation), and money wasn't a problem, even got to write most of it off through his business. NOT including the cost of the property, flight time operational costs, or property taxes, I have well over $250K invested, and some of the tech is now due for upgrade/replacement, and I estimate at least $50-60K for that, and If you include property cost, taxes, and helo op costs, the actual total is pushing $600K.

Unfortunately, most preppers don't have the resources we have, which really puts a cramp in their ability to seek "total isolation." (A few other relatives have their own retreats, and God knows what the "total" cost is, but we all have our own setups, scattered here and there.) I'd hate to even think about trying to "hike in" -- the terrain between the nearest highway and my place is very inhospitable if you're on foot.

The only advice I could give anyone on a more restricted budget seeking isolation is to find a place where there is "no reason" for anyone else to stumble up on it, and BUY the property. (Isolated land is actually fairly inexpensive, property taxes are very low.) Look for a place that is defensible, and where you're only visible from above. Have enough space for crops, good water supply, and preferably good hunting. Meat is always available from hunting, it's the veggies ya gotta worry about!

When my pups are close to full grown, I'll be heading out to my "retreat," and the rest of the country can do whatever it wants, shtf or not, I'm "retiring" from society.


----------



## Pessimistic2

Pessimistic1 said:


> Took me a while to find the type of location I wanted....no computers or Google Earth back then. Bought the entire valley, 580 acres. U-shaped, and I'm backed right up in the U, valley is spread out in front of me, facing SW. Been an evolving setup (25 yes worth), cost to buy the valley was fairly expensive initially, but very low property tax. Like I said, I'm not into "primitive digs," have a two bdrm log cabin, and a monstrous 20KW Solar unit, backup diesel gen, backup water turbine gen...redundant I know, but I don't want to be without power. Four water sources, two deep wells, natural spring, and the creek. The "bad part" was everything including the proverbial kitchen sink had to be flown in by helo, the "good part" is the place is so isolated there is NO reason for anyone else to ever stumble up on it. Got plenty of room for crops, good hunting, trapping, not so much on the fishing. Mostly what I have laid in are tools, condiments, seeds, and MREs (which get swapped out about every 4-5 years). Actually the hardest damn things to fly in were the fuel bladders for the diesel (two 2500 gal bladders)....you know how HEAVY those things are? Had to have two additional 500 gal bladders for helo fuel. Jesus! Also have a 1500 gal bladder for water, and a huge septic tank. And yes, it took a while to "get it all together," and a WHOLE LOT of $$$$. I thought we were NEVER gonna get done bringing in bags of cement. Fortunately both my brother and I are pilots (he owns a small cargo operation), and money wasn't a problem, even got to write most of it off through his business. NOT including the cost of the property, flight time operational costs, or property taxes, I have well over $250K invested, and some of the tech is now due for upgrade/replacement, and I estimate at least $50-60K for that, and If you include property cost, taxes, and helo op costs, the actual total is pushing $600K.
> 
> Unfortunately, most preppers don't have the resources we have, which really puts a cramp in their ability to seek "total isolation." (A few other relatives have their own retreats, and God knows what the "total" cost is, but we all have our own setups, scattered here and there.) I'd hate to even think about trying to "hike in" -- the terrain between the nearest highway and my place is very inhospitable if you're on foot.
> 
> The only advice I could give anyone on a more restricted budget seeking isolation is to find a place where there is "no reason" for anyone else to stumble up on it, and BUY the property. (Isolated land is actually fairly inexpensive, property taxes are very low.) Look for a place that is defensible, and where you're only visible from above. Have enough space for crops, good water supply, and preferably good hunting. Meat is always available from hunting, it's the veggies ya gotta worry about!
> 
> When my pups are close to full grown, I'll be heading out to my "retreat," and the rest of the country can do whatever it wants, shtf or not, I'm "retiring" from society.


I just love "autocorrect," valley faces SE, not SW. Damn iPhone....I gotta get a new phone.....


----------



## BillM

*Use of Force in self Defense*

I am leaving the latest copy of Kentucky's law regarding the proper and improper use of force.

Your state may differ in some aspect but here it is and it is fairly simple in its concept.

https://docjt.ky.gov/legal/documents/Pre-ClassReadingAssignmentLI2014140116.pdf


----------

