# Great survival gun



## sailaway (Mar 12, 2009)

How about a flint lock? They are cheap right now, everyone wants inline. The gun shop doesn't call them in. You can nap your own flints, make your own black powder and mold your own bullets. There is plenty of balance lead on car tires. You can also use it to start a fire.


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## Canadian (Dec 14, 2008)

I'm not sure but I think there are limitations on how long you can keep black powder around before it becomes unstable. Metallic cartridges on the other hand will last for decades. It all depends on the F rating of the powder and other factors. 

There's also the wet weather factor and they are a little dangerous. You can over or under load them by accident. Some people even forget they loaded it and double load it. Plus very slow to reload.

However, some areas allow and extended or early hunting season for black powder. The modern ones are really quite good. I'll stick to my center fire cartridges. That's just my preference.


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## preparednesspro (Apr 17, 2009)

While it really depends on what you're planning on using the firearm for, for someone who has never shot a gun before, I would suggest:

1. handgun
2. shotgun
3. rifle

Shotguns are good for home self defense -- and it's hard to screw up with a shotgun.

Handguns are good for public self defense. You can't go wrong with a Glock. They're particularly friendly for women who tend to shoot a little limp wristed (it's okay, I'm a woman, I can say that!)

You may want to check out Women of Caliber for more on firearm self defense.


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## NYsurvivalist6 (Apr 22, 2009)

I'd take my 12ga over my 22. If food was really scarce and needed to hunt for it, I can easily take down a deer with the 12ga.

But if I had a choice, I'd take my 22 as well.

Like preparednesspro said, its hard to mess up with a shotgun. Its fool proof, I know first hand.


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## Expeditioner (Jan 6, 2009)

I am a black powder enthusiast. I have no problems using the flintlock for hunting but would not use it for self defense unless I had no other choice. For self defense give me a modern day firearm.


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## Canadian (Dec 14, 2008)

I just bought my first gun and it's a 12 gauge. Got to love how plentiful ammo is. I bought a case of Swiss army surplus 2 3/4" HOT 16 pellet shells 180 shells in the case. I feel a lot better now that I've got a gun in the house. It was sort of the missing piece of the puzzle that's finally fallen into place.


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## doc66 (Apr 13, 2009)

For a first firearm, as mentioned already, you really need to look at what you want to do with the firearm--is it going to be a hunting tool, a defensive tool, or do you kind of want it to fill both roles? Are you looking at a pistol or a rifle? Is it for hunting only? Is it the behind the door when strangers come knocking tool? While a firearm will do both things well, there are weapons that do one better than the other.

A defensive firearm. They fall in to the category of "black rifles", the AR, AK, FN/FAL, CETME, HK-whatever and clones. The primary purpose of the firearm is simply the defense of the family. While you can hunt with an AR or AK if needed, the round was not really designed for that task. The advantages of the black rifle are that they come in small packages (most have a 16 inch barrel) collapsible or folding stocks and they hold many, many rounds. They can be dressed up with all kinds of optics and do-dads and generally made to look like a space gun out of your favorite sci-fi movie. You'll get a lot of answers for the best rifle in this category, but the truth is that a defensive rifle needs to accomplish some very basic things.

1) It needs to be magazine fed. That is DETACHABLE magazines. There are people who will say that the M94 lever action is a good defensive rifle. In it's day it was. Today, it is slow, the action is complected and your ammo choices are either hunting rounds or pistol rounds. Detachable magazines are hell and gone better for getting back into action fast and laying down lots of rounds when suppressive fire is needed. And if you're the only one defending the home, suppressive fire might be the only option you have. Have lots of magazines. Magazines are consumables, they will get damaged and dropped, have enough to see you through the fight.

2) It needs to be able to sport good optics, like a sturdy red dot or similar sighting system, AND have back up iron sights (BUIS) Red dots and their ilk are far superior to any other combat distance sighting systems. Iron sights are a must for when the dot goes down, or you have to take that extra long shot and they need to be regulated for distances beyond 100 meters.

3) Have a good sling. This goes for any shoulder fired weapon. I'm talking about a good two or three point system, not a hunting sling. Some guys like the single point, but I am stuck on the two point system.

4) Get training with it. There is no substitute for training, other than practicing the training you get. Look around for reputable trainers and spend the money on it. I'd pimp my training company here, but that would be wrong. (MilCopp Tactical: Ohio based Training)

5) Have the rifle in a caliber that you are comfortable shooting all day, with precision shots and rapid fire. If you are hammered in the first 20 minutes at the range shooting your rifle, it is not a good defensive rifle. There are many people out there who will tell you that the .308 is the only way to go. I am not one of them. I like the .308, I have a black rifle chambered in that caliber, but it is not a primary defensive weapon. It is a secondary, defend the castle weapon. The 5.56 has so much going for it as a defensive round it's not even funny. with less interior wall penetration than a 9mm and better down range ballistics than a Pistol Caliber Carbine (PCC) in the same sized package, the 5.56 bests them hands down. The 7.62x39 is another great round for defensive shooting and with the cost of ammo these days, it's a little more affordable than an AR. The draw back to the x39 is that there are no (substantial) domestic ammo manufacturers for the round and so you are stuck with very basic loadings for the rifle, unlike the .223/5.56, which has specialty rounds out the bum.

Those are just a few of the things that you need to think about in a defensive rifle. I run an AR15 with a 16" barrel, collapsible stock, EoTech and BUIS with a two point sling. A good AK system will work as well, we train people on both systems.

As for hunting rifles--what do you want to hunt, you're only limited by your budget. That's a thread all its own, really.

Shotguns for defense.

I'm of the "a rifle is better" camp. I have a defensive shotgun, I keep it in the safe. It's got synthetic stocks and ammo carriers and extended tubes, and even with all that, it still doesn't beat a good rifle. You see, shotguns, even the one with extended tubes, rarely hold more than a revolver in a bigger package that shoots a more punishing round. A defensive shotgun should be run solely with buckshot. Forget all the crap about birdshot and slugs and the rest. 00 buck should be in the tube and nothing else. 00 buck, and only 00 buck, not birdshot, has the penetration needed for defensive shots on a target, even at defensive distances. IF you need to fire that weapon further, you need to have something that will carry its energy down range and birdshot will not do it. 00 buck is the defensive ticket. While I do train people to swap out slugs for distance shooting, slugs should be a considered specialty round for defensive shooting. You should use NO other type of rounds. Not Less Than Lethal, not birdshot, not anything other the 00 buck. There are various reason for this, but for this post, just trust me. 00 buck.

I could ramble on, but I've done enough damage, I'm going for a run now.


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## Canadian (Dec 14, 2008)

I say choice of a gun is very situational. Here's why I chose the shotgun.

I live in a town home complex in a gated community in one of the largest cities in the world. My unit has narrow hallways and small passages between buildings. The longest distance between two walls in my stretch of the complex is 60 feet with most distances being 30 feet or about 20 feet a some points. 

We have a high population density and I don't want to kill any of the people in the units across from me if I have to use the shotgun. The pellets won't go through the brick and cement walls. Rifle rounds will and could cause lots of damage. High shots could also kill people in the surrounding condo towers. 

The shotgun is easy to score a hit with. Mine is a 14" with a collapsable stock so it's small and my wife can use it. It's also reliable. No gas impingement system to foul up. I can get ammo at many places locally. If it's a crowd of people looting the spread of pellets can hit several of them at once.

Also in Canada you can't get mags that hold more than 5 rounds for a .308 and 10 max for a .223 AR. Topping off the shotgun with a few shells takes about the same amount of time as changing a five round mag. 

Also AR's are restricted in Canada meaning that you can only take them to the range or keep them in your house. Not on your property but "in" your house. If we have to run for it and we run into a police patrol or road block they would confiscate our AR. If we have a shotgun it's perfectly legal to transport it anywhere we want as long as the gun itself is not loaded. 

Most of the people we encounter will be armed with hand weapons. If anyone has a gun chances are it will be a handgun or some kind of sporting rifle or shotgun. 

In my situation I'd say the shotgun is best. It's all situational.


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## doc66 (Apr 13, 2009)

I understand that Canada has different rules/laws. You can get cool things that we can not get in the states, like the Tavor, you still have the Robinson XRC and numerous other AR-type weapons. 

I also understand the choices are situational.

However, try reloading against an AR-type rifle with your shotgun, even with 5 or 10 round mags. I'll bet that the magazine fed rifle will out load and out shoot you every time. Round for round, the rifle has you beaten, not only in number of rounds down range, but also accuracy and distance. 

In addition to the round count, the simple punishment received by the shooter over a long period of single use is enough to get a strong man to flinch. I've done 300+ round days with a shotgun and it ain't fun. while it may be small enough to fit your wife, is it something she really wants to shoot? Combat shotgun techniques and women don't always go together, especially smaller stature women. 

As for over penetration, the 5.56/.223 WILL NOT over penetrate through exterior walls. Numerous scientific testing has shown this to be true, as well as experience in the Middle East. Over all, the 5.56/.223 is superior to other rounds when it comes to a defensive round. 

Now for the gas system on the AR, contrary to popular myth, it is a very reliable system. There is a reason why it is the longest running infantry personal service weapon in the US inventory: it works damn well. ALL firearms are mechanical systems, be it a slide action or a bolt or a direct gas system. ALL of them need to be maintained. I have over 1000 rounds through both my AR's at the moment and I've not cleaned either one. That was shooting Wolf ammo. I lube the bolt and go. I don't recommend it, but it still works.

BTW, we've been talking with a group from Canada about running a BOLT ACTION defensive rifle class using stripper clip fed rifles like the Enfield and the Mauser 98. It's been fun trying to come up with different drills and loading techniques for this class.


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## SonOfLiberty (Apr 28, 2009)

The best survival gun for the money is a nice bow and arrow set. Arrows don't deteriorate with age and you can always make new ones if they do. Heck, you can make a bow from scratch too with only a minimal education in how they're made.

And the best part is that they are absolutely silent.

Nothing worse in a SHTF situation than letting prowling "authorities" know you're nearby hunting game with a rifle crack. IMO

Now if by survival you mean combat and hunting both, then well, go with whatever local law enforcement/military calibers are current in your region. In U.S. that would be .223/9mm/10mm (cops use that a lot) and I believe still .308. Reason being, well, for obvious reasons for when we have to pilfer from the nearest national guard armory. I have mixed feelings about .223, but if forced, I guess I'd go with a Mini-14. It's not wildly accurate past 200 yards, but, the entire gun is built on a solid and combat proven mechanism and it pretty much works every time you pull the trigger. My experiences with the M-16 line of weapons has been less than favorable, especially in situations which are less than pristine. It's more accurate by far than a Mini-14, however, I like guns that shoot when you pull the trigger in a non-perfect environment. 

Or, heck, a .22 LR is a good all around choice as well, and the ammo is much more portable. A 22LR bullet kills a squirrel just as well as a 10mm.

Personally my weapon sof choice in a SHTF situation is an StG-58 (.308), a 1991A1 .45 sidearm. The .45 is useless once it's out of ammo, but there's lots of .45 ACP floating around the states still, and further, the only time you should ever have your sidearm out is when your rifle has failed or you absolutely have no space to wield the rifle effectively, so I don't foresee using it a lot. My wife has a Mini-14 and the son uses a lever action 30-30 (he's 12).

That said, if hunting, I'd be using a bow and arrow and have a rifle strapped on, just in case.


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## doc66 (Apr 13, 2009)

I hate to dis your choice of rifles, but the Mini-14, while it's been around a while, is built on old technology that is been surpassed by far better systems--like the Stoner gas system. In addition to its firing mechanism (which I can't believe has not given you problems of some sort) the magazine situation for the Mini is dismal. The only non-Ruger mags I've found that work in Mini's are Black Warrior mags, and not all of them work all the time. I've owned Mini's as well and always sell them off for better rifles, like the AR. I even did a pretty cool project I called the Mini-Scout rifle.

What problems have you had with the AR system? What kind of/brand rifle was it? I've never had any major problems with any of mine, most of them were magazine or ammo related, nor have friends of mine who carried them daily in Iraq and Afghanistan. What you'll find with AR's is that they are like 1911's, depending on what parts were used, they can be stellar or junk. There are so many manufacturers out there that you really have to know your brands to avoid the frankenguns of the basement builder. My first AR was one of these and I had so many problems with it I almost gave up on the breed. Once I got the right buffer and spring, it worked great. 

It is the preferred rifle for not only our forces, but the SAS, Israelis, and numerous other fighting forces around the world. Rifles will break down, they are mechanical devices and unless maintained, don't work.


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## SonOfLiberty (Apr 28, 2009)

doc66 said:


> I hate to dis your choice of rifles, but the Mini-14, while it's been around a while, is built on old technology that is been surpassed by far better systems--like the Stoner gas system. In addition to its firing mechanism (which I can't believe has not given you problems of some sort) the magazine situation for the Mini is dismal. The only non-Ruger mags I've found that work in Mini's are Black Warrior mags, and not all of them work all the time. I've owned Mini's as well and always sell them off for better rifles, like the AR. I even did a pretty cool project I called the Mini-Scout rifle.


Not a lick of problems with the 2 mini's I've owned. Well, to date. And I generally don't go for the 30 round or less desirable mags. It's not a perfect weapon by any stretch of the imagination though, but for plinking eating animals out on the farm they work a treat.



> What problems have you had with the AR system? What kind of/brand rifle was it? I've never had any major problems with any of mine, most of them were magazine or ammo related, nor have friends of mine who carried them daily in Iraq and Afghanistan. What you'll find with AR's is that they are like 1911's, depending on what parts were used, they can be stellar or junk. There are so many manufacturers out there that you really have to know your brands to avoid the frankenguns of the basement builder. My first AR was one of these and I had so many problems with it I almost gave up on the breed. Once I got the right buffer and spring, it worked great.
> 
> It is the preferred rifle for not only our forces, but the SAS, Israelis, and numerous other fighting forces around the world. Rifles will break down, they are mechanical devices and unless maintained, don't work.


Every AR I've fired has jammed on me at least once every session I've fired them. From the standard crap A-1 we were issued in Basic (which you'd expect, the A-1 sucked), to the A-2 we were issued after AIT, through the CAR-15 private semi-auto systems I've fired that friends own. It may well be just my bad luck with them, but, if it is I figure I'll still have bad luck with them in the field under stress.

Everybody else who has used M-16 or variants swear by them. Me, can't get off ten shots without them jamming consistently, and I know what I'm doing firing a weapon, I was trained and drilled on that gol-durn thing for years, so I can only chalk it up to foul luck.

My plan, while in the military, was to use the M-16 to acquire an AK-47 to use as my main, as well as learning advanced bayonette and clubbing techniques in the event I couldn't locate a stray AK-47. 

Ideally for survival only, given what is a somewhat shady reputation for the mini-14 (maybe I'm just lucky with them, much as I'm unlucky with AR's), it's bow and arrow or .22LR for best results IMO, depending on if you have a base camp or not. Cleaning should occur but it's going to be of minimal concern if you're bugging out. Bows are silent, which I think would be important for at least the first few months in regards to general looters, and later months in regards to what we all know will be a well fed and prowling "authority" presence.

Combat is entirely different. My StG-58 is a piece of work and I'm happy with it.


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## Canadian (Dec 14, 2008)

doc66 said:


> I understand that Canada has different rules/laws. You can get cool things that we can not get in the states, like the Tavor, you still have the Robinson XRC and numerous other AR-type weapons.
> 
> I also understand the choices are situational.
> 
> ...


I disagree. With each shell sending sixteen pellets downrange I've got your AR beat in terms of projectiles down range with one pull of the trigger.

As far as range goes I already stated that the longest distance I could possibly have to shoot in my complex is 60 feet. Most targets will be 20 or 30 feet away. If the fight is in the hallway it's perhaps 10 feet. Range isn't an issue for me.

As far as accuracy goes at 30 feet I can't possibly miss. I don't see how the rifle is more accurate. I could be a little off target and still score a hit.

With 5 round mags I'd have to own 6 mags for every one that you carry. The shells I just carry in the shell holders. Although you may be able to reload a little faster I can top up on the move. You always have to change for a full mag even if the mag you are using still has rounds in it.

Most people would say a pump is more reliable than the AR.

Yes there are non-restricted semi autos in Canada but they all have incredibly long barrel lengths. My shotgun is 14" and still non-restricted. Trying to shoot out the doorway into the hall with a full length non restricted Robinson rifle or M-1A match would be more than awkward. It would pretty much be impossible if someone is shooting back.

At 20 to 30 feet .223 FMJ will go through a wall. It just depends on the wall and the angle. I don't want to take the chance. It will go through a floor to roof condo glass window for sure. Pellets at that range would shatter the window but probably not have anywhere near as much energy as a rifle bullet.

My shotgun has a knoxx recoil reducer and spec ops stock. I can collapse it down. The reducer cuts felt recoil by 75%. I also have the vang comp porting for another 15% recoil reduction. I have 2 3/4" remington reduced recoil LE buckshot on order. I can shoot this thing all day.

I think for my situation I've got the right gun.

If you disagree we can simply agree to disagree.


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## Canadian (Dec 14, 2008)

Son of liberty - I also have a bow and agree on your points about the bow. I also think for rural folks a .22 is an excellent survival or bug out gun. The 12 gauge is also very useful as well. It all depends on your situation. In my city environment I'll never do any hunting so my choice is simply based on home defense against looters. That's pretty much it.


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## SonOfLiberty (Apr 28, 2009)

Canadian said:


> Son of liberty - I also have a bow and agree on your points about the bow. I also think for rural folks a .22 is an excellent survival or bug out gun. The 12 gauge is also very useful as well. It all depends on your situation. In my city environment I'll never do any hunting so my choice is simply based on home defense against looters. That's pretty much it.


Thanks. I live in the suburbs right now, but we have family land about 15 miles away (give or take), 40 acres, that will probably be where we'll locate if we get wind of anything coming down the pike. I don't expect to wake up one day and the lights are off and tanks are in the street, generally things like that have a build up that is quite obvious.

Natural disasters on the other hand don't have me worrying about anything other than short term situational issues, and while I'd keep a pistol under my belt during a week's power outage, I don't consider that really a survival situation requiring careful attention to what weapon one uses.


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## doc66 (Apr 13, 2009)

Canadian, really no honest. I do this stuff for a living. The shotgun myth of more projectiles is just not true as far as being better. Yes, you get nine rounds of .32 caliber BALLs in the air, but as for penetration, they are anemic at best. They are the minimal you need to make a stopping shot. there is a reason why the Minni Ball was invented, and the Spitzer bullet. I have reams of shooting investigations and the shot gun is not as effective as people want to think, nor is the .45 or the what have you secret squirrel kill'em dead. Once you get past a certain point in a fight, only deep penetration and consistent hits to the center mass and thus the heart/lungs stop fights.

As far as over penetration, that is just not true. Over and over the .5.56 fairs better than a 9mm (or other rounds for that matter) on interior walls and exterior walls. there is a reason why so many SRT/SWAT teams are switching from the MP5 to the M4 rifle: it doesn't over penetrate and has a better stop ratio than the MP5/9mm. 

You do have to have more mags with 5 rounds, but the amount of ammo you can carry in them verses the weight of your shotgun carrier beats the ammo issue. The rounds that are put down range more accurately with a rifle, they have better penetration than the shotgun and are in the long run, safer. Because with accurate fire, better penetration and the ability to put rounds in the boiler room, the rifle has it beat everytime. 

No matter your situation, you should be aware of your shooting lanes. But, at least here in the states, once you pull that trigger you're bound to be demonized no matter the reason you did so. This is less of a worry now that many States have the Castle Doctrine, but it is still a concern. 

This is what I tell people who want to use a firearm in a defensive situation. 

"If you don't have $100,000 laying around that you don't need, don't pull that trigger." 

That's the Base Line cost of a shooting here in the US. 

Also, have you shot buckshot at 60 feet? I'm here to tell you that even with TAP 00 Buck your spread is going to to larger than your target. You are going to have up to six .32 caliber balls going down range that never hit the target. And yes, you can miss at 30 feet. Stress and adrenaline and fear are all things that will make you miss at 30 feet. Even with a shotgun, it is not a miracle weapon that reduces all of those things named above. What can get you better? Training. Lots of training. 

The people who say a pump is more reliable than an AR have never used either under stress. Those same people say that the revolver is better because it is simpler, and that is just not true. A revolver has over 30 moving parts to it while a Glock has 30 parts, total, including the magazine. Shotguns can and are, short stroked under stress and the process of getting it back into the fight is involved. The manual of arms for an AR is simple, just like a pistol. 

Also, can I talk you out of the LEO ammo? It's reduced recoil means that the rounds are down loaded, which translates into less down range energy (forget the advertised at the muzzle listing, it's all smoke and mirrors) which in turn means less penetration, and penetration is the name of the game. You are honestly better off buying standard ammo and using it. 

But that's just years of experience as a firearms instructor, LEO and investigating shootings talking. If you want to disagree, that's okay too. I just train people to live.


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## Canadian (Dec 14, 2008)

Most civilian self defense shooting take place about fifteen feet or less from the target. You'd have a hard time claiming self defense if you're laying down "suppressive fire" or shooting people at 100 meters with your black rifle. 

At the range I expect to have to use the shotgun it'll work great. I intend to use it for home defense. That means shooting at people who are kicking my front door down. Not shooting at people down the block from me. 

Sure the shotgun can miss at 30 feet. So can anything else. I never said the shotgun was a miracle weapon but the patterning does make it easier to hit than with a rifle

The police officer that I bought the shotgun from is the armorer for his department and teaches the armorer courses for the 870, AR15, and 37mm launchers for all of Ontario. You can't buy a 14" LE shotgun unless you're in law enforcement. The only way I could get one was by buying one from him. We had a good long talk about the 870 police. 

He's a career officer and is only a few years away from retirement. He's used all kinds of weapons under stress and said that for my home defense needs in my condo complex the 870 is an excellent choice. Since He's older than you and became a cop right out of high school I'd say he has more years of experience as a police officer than you do. 

The AR is made by a lot of people. I've been interested in buying one and he gave me a whole list of uppers and lowers that I should not buy. There are a lot of bad AR's and parts out there. Plus they do need to be well maintained to operate properly. I'll be taking armorer courses alongside LE's as he teaches them as he's open to teaching regular folks like me. I'm looking forward tot he 37mm launcher course. 

The reduced recoil ammo is for the wife. She's smaller than me and I'd like her to be able to use the shotgun as well. 

I trust what my LEO says since I've met him face to face, done business with him, and he's got an awesome reputation in the Canadian shooting community. When he says that my 870 is an excellent choice for home defense I take his word for it. I've gone through all the scenarios and options and my choices make sense for my situation. 

Do you want to cancel your bolt action course and tell all your students to go and buy black rifles? It's all a big toolbox. Pick the right tool for the job. All the tools exist for different purposes. Our Toronto ETF team still uses shotguns. So does JTF2 and all the other spec ops units in the world. It has a place and a role. I'm keeping it.


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## julio (May 12, 2009)

I would not worry about a flint lock.
A bow is good for hunting only. Problem is you need plenty of practice and it would need to be a long bow or recurve for long term use
Bird shot for self defense is fine in close quaters situations 40 feet or less then use buckshot. At ten yards you will still have to aim because the spread is not but about 6 in. in most cases. It will penetrate more than enough. Thirty years experience talking hunting and training.
Revolvers are better than autos in most cases they only have about 6 to 8 moving parts but they do still have to be kept clean.
The beloved Glock is a fine weapon but one thing no one ever thinks about is lead. We are talking about survival firearms. You may have to reload or scrounge for ammo. With the Glock you just eliminated one supply of bullets and ammo that can be used. I have personnally inspected thirteen glocks that self-distructed on lead bullets and have talked to other amorers and instructors about others.
5.56 will overpenetrate just like 9mm ball. Most tactical units use Tap or other fragmenting ammo. If you want to avoid op use hp not fmj.
the Ar platform works great and is very reliable. Ak's the problem will be ammo and mags. Mini's are very good but mags and accuracy are the problems.
Lever actions and pumps are fine for 99% of the situations you may ever encounter.

Long winded for me. I know i will tick off a few but i have quite abit of experience and have done alot of research.


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## vic2367 (Nov 28, 2008)

ruger 10/22 rifle

easy to get .22s ,,lots of assecories for the rifle,,


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## Canadian (Dec 14, 2008)

I have to agree that a .22 is one of the best survival guns out there.


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## sailaway (Mar 12, 2009)

Canadian said:


> I have to agree that a .22 is one of the best survival guns out there.


I love my Rugar 10/22, I have a couple different magazines for it. It is light simple to maintain, and I have never had a problem with it jamming. I'm thinking of picking up one with a bull barrel.


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## Canadian (Dec 14, 2008)

I've been thinking of getting one for the club. A brick of .22 is dirt cheap and I can shoot for hours and not spend a lot of money.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

Canadian said:


> I'm not sure but I think there are limitations on how long you can keep black powder around before it becomes unstable. Metallic cartridges on the other hand will last for decades. It all depends on the F rating of the powder and other factors.
> 
> There's also the wet weather factor and they are a little dangerous. You can over or under load them by accident. Some people even forget they loaded it and double load it. Plus very slow to reload.
> 
> However, some areas allow and extended or early hunting season for black powder. The modern ones are really quite good. I'll stick to my center fire cartridges. That's just my preference.


The only thing that can make black powder bad is exposure to moisture, if it's in a sealed container it will last a lifetime. All the F rating in black powder is is the screening size and what it does to burning rate because of size, FFFF is great for flash pan, FFF pistol, FF for rifle, F probably canon. There is some overlap usage of BP size for different bore sizes. Modern powders can and do break down, depends a lot on how they are stored. Always have a cool dry storage area for any powder and as well it's good if it's stored in an area that doesn't fluctuate in temperature. I have Unique smokeless powder and black powder that I've had for thirty years and they are in excellent condition. Due to the chemical compounds in smokeless powder it can go bad, if you see a redish powder in it and it has an acidic smell rather than the pleasent either like smell then it's probably bad.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

Though I don't own a .22 rifle they are an excellent survival tool. I've seen a .22 rifle drop a 800 lb. steer, on the otherhand it would be useless on bear unless you could shoot the charging bears' eyes out. julio is right about Glocks and hand loading with lead bullets, it's their polygonal barrel and a large unsupported area of a chambered cartridge, I've read that aftermarket grove and land match barrels don't have as bad a leading problem. They can do what is called a Kaboom, do an internet search on that as I know one site that has pics. I handload with lead bullets for a Springfield Armory XDm and a Stoeger Cougar, both are .40 S&W, even they need a few hundred rounds of jacketed ammo through them before they can take a magazine or two of lead bullets without lead fouling the barrel. The XDm seems to be less prone to leading than the hard chromed Cougar barrel. By the way .22 long rifle ammo is next to impossible to get ahold of here in SW Oregon, for that matter getting any ammo around here is like winning the lottery. If you can get .22 LR ammo Marlin makes great inexpensive bolt and semi-auto rifles for under $200. I have a friend that has a Marlin .22 Winchester Magnum bolt rifle which I sited in for him and it's incredibly accurate.


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## sailaway (Mar 12, 2009)

A 22 is an inxpensive way to learn to shoot if you if you are a neophite. You can go through alot of ammo at little cost, when you get the basic techniques down, you can step up to a more expensive cartrige gun.


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

I have to go with the 22 also. It is a good all around rifle and a cheap way to maintain your skills. I have two. One scoped, one open as well as a 22 handgun. Three firearms in one caliber is good position to be in. I can hold a one inch pattern with the scope and a four inch pattern (still working on that  ) with open site at about 50 yds. But for home defence, the 12 gauge is on my side of the bed and the 357 is on hers.


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## Canadian (Dec 14, 2008)

You've got the 12 gauge and she's got the .357? I guess you guys don't argue in the bedroom.


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

Heck no!!! I can't swing the barrel around fast enough to compete with that revolver.


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## Canadian (Dec 14, 2008)

I guess on bad nights I'd sleep on the couch or in the car several miles away.


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## endurance (Nov 26, 2008)

I have two Ruger 10/22s. One scoped, the other with open sights. I've had one of my 10/22s for over 20 years (actually, without it for four years when it was stolen out of storage, but recovered in the next state (Wyoming) and returned) and haven't had to do anything but clean it every 500 rounds or so. Great reliability.

However, I wouldn't have realized just how limited the accuracy was if I didn't pick up a $75 used Marlin at a pawn shop recently. While the barrel is a good 4-5" longer, the accuracy is remarkable. I just didn't think that a .22 could shoot so well out at 50 yards. While I prefer the detachable magazine on the Ruger, there's a benefit to the Marlin in being able to add rounds one or two at a time while you're hunting (albiet pulling the magazine tube nearly all the way out).

In any case, I just wanted to add what I believe is the most useful survival firearm on earth. My thoughts on black powder and flintlock is "why?" For under $200 I can store enough .22 rounds to last the rest of my life, shooting a few dozen rounds a day. I can't imagine a world where I'll have to resort to making my own black powder. If I did have to live with what I have in my caches and on my back, I'd opt for a .22 rifle (marlin or ruger) and my Remmington 7400 .270 win. I live in big game country where shots over 100 yards are common. We don't have a great deal of waterfowl, so I don't see the need for a shotgun. The ammo for them is rediculously heavy to carry. The 7400 gives me a non-attention grabbing gun that was legally sold throughout the last assault weapons ban, but still has volume of fire capability and is very light weight for a large caliber weapon. I opted for .270 because of a blend of availability, ballistic qualities, and minimal kick that I desired, but it's also available in 30-06 and possibly .243.

If I was going to have to settle on a handgun only or a handgun and one rifle, it would be a .357 revolver with a six inch barrel. With two chambers loaded with brass .38 squib loads and four chambers loaded with chrome .357 full power loads you have a single gun that can take out small game out to 25 yards with minimal meat damage and large game out to 50 yards just by rotating the chambers (thus the color-coding of shells). I've handloaded .38s down to 650fps and with a fmj bullet, I've taken out a rabbit at 20 yards and lost no meat whatsoever from bloodshot (chest shot and all the meat is on the legs). When I was a deputy I'd frequently be called upon to put down deer and elk and my 9mm was always up to the task, so I'm sure .357 would more than serve the purpose. While range is limited, sometimes you have to make due and I'd only be stuck with a handgun if something were way off kilter from my plans.

If you're worried about the long-term availability of ammunition, buy what you need now or buy what you need to reload now. If you've never seen a Lee Loader, you need to do some looking around. For $25 you can get everything you need to reload most common calibers and best of all, it's a kit that will fit in your pack easily, weighs less than a pound, and a mallet or even a rock serves as your press. No need for a bench mounted press, so it's entirely portable. Just add time, used brass, primers, powders and bullets and you're in business. Pretty slick. Everyone should have one cached for each caliber they plan on bugging out with along with a pound of powder, box of primers and a few boxes of bullets. It's cheap insurance that you'll never need to resort to a flintlock.


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## Canadian (Dec 14, 2008)

Everyone on the Canadian forums is bitching that there are no primers, powder, etc to be found anywhere.


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## endurance (Nov 26, 2008)

No doubt that supplies are tight right now all over, but at least in the US, there's plenty of on-line sources that are still selling. I don't know if that's an option up there or not.


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

Canadian said:


> Son of liberty - I also have a bow and agree on your points about the bow. I also think for rural folks a .22 is an excellent survival or bug out gun. The 12 gauge is also very useful as well. It all depends on your situation. In my city environment I'll never do any hunting so my choice is simply based on home defense against looters. That's pretty much it.


I have recently found out that cross-bows are no longer on the denial-list of weapons. Smaller bolts, high-velocity and "silent". We just had a BassPro open here in Calgary and they have a large collection of cross-bows - some with scope, some with sights only. I believe that I will be purchasing one shortly ..


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## SJZ (Nov 17, 2008)

endurance said:


> No doubt that supplies are tight right now all over, but at least in the US, there's plenty of on-line sources that are still selling. I don't know if that's an option up there or not.


Powder isn't too hard to find, but small & large rifle primers... very hard. If you know where to get 'em (besides the inflated prices on gunbroker.com), please let me know. Cabelas are backordered till the end of June (I ordered in the beginning of April).


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## TechAdmin (Oct 1, 2008)

I'd pick my 10/22 if I could only have 1 gun. Ammo can take most everything with a well placed shot, it's a quality well built accurate rifle, ammo is small and cheap right now.


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## sailaway (Mar 12, 2009)

SJZ said:


> Powder isn't too hard to find, but small & large rifle primers... very hard. If you know where to get 'em (besides the inflated prices on gunbroker.com), please let me know. Cabelas are backordered till the end of June (I ordered in the beginning of April).


Try Southern Ohio Gun, they may have primers. The Log Cabin Store in Lodi, Oh. has them. Dixie Gun Works in Tn. has them.


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## SJZ (Nov 17, 2008)

sailaway said:


> Try Southern Ohio Gun, they may have primers. The Log Cabin Store in Lodi, Oh. has them. Dixie Gun Works in Tn. has them.


Thanks for the leads!
Southern Gun doesn't list 'em on the web site.
Dixie wants $99 for 1000, 3X the normal price, and they don't have the 7 1/2 small rifle nor 8 1/2 large rifle.
Couldn't find the Log Cabin Store on line.
Trust me, I've looked real hard for these things. Reloading is barely cost effective now, but paying $100 for 1000 primers knocks it out of sight!
I do appreciate the reply, 'tho.


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## sailaway (Mar 12, 2009)

SJZ said:


> Thanks for the leads!
> Southern Gun doesn't list 'em on the web site.
> Dixie wants $99 for 1000, 3X the normal price, and they don't have the 7 1/2 small rifle nor 8 1/2 large rifle.
> Couldn't find the Log Cabin Store on line.
> ...


The Log Cabin Store is in Lodi, Ohio. They are in the 330 area code I will try and find a card and get it to you.


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## O6nop (Dec 6, 2008)

endurance said:


> I
> If I was going to have to settle on a handgun only or a handgun and one rifle, it would be a .357 revolver with a six inch barrel. With two chambers loaded with brass .38 squib loads and four chambers loaded with chrome .357 full power loads you have a single gun that can take out small game out to 25 yards with minimal meat damage and large game out to 50 yards just by rotating the chambers (thus the color-coding of shells). I've handloaded .38s down to 650fps and with a fmj bullet, I've taken out a rabbit at 20 yards and lost no meat whatsoever from bloodshot (chest shot and all the meat is on the legs). When I was a deputy I'd frequently be called upon to put down deer and elk and my 9mm was always up to the task, so I'm sure .357 would more than serve the purpose. While range is limited, sometimes you have to make due and I'd only be stuck with a handgun if something were way off kilter from my plans.


Sounds like you've been reloading for a while, I've only been doing it for a couple years. I have to ask, what do you mean by a _squib load_? My definition of that is a bullet that doesn't have enough energy behind it to make it out of the barrel. I've had about 3 of those, trying to determine the lightest load to fire out of my lever action in 45colt. I'm guessing you are talking about a light load, yourself. Next question, if that's the case, what reason do you want a light load in the revolver? For low penetrating defense load, smaller game...?


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## mohctep (May 25, 2009)

For Hunting,maybe one of the 12 gauge/rifle over and under combo guns?
Savage Arms Rifle Shotgun Combo Model 24F-12

For defense,I'm partial to either the Saiga 12,the Springfield Armory M1A1,or XD-45.


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

sailaway said:


> The Log Cabin Store is in Lodi, Ohio. They are in the 330 area code I will try and find a card and get it to you.


do you mean:

Log Cabin Sport Shop
Log Cabin Shop, Serving the Black Powder Community for Over 57 Years

8010 Lafayette Rd
Lodi, OH 44254
(330) 948-1082

it's just a few miles from me


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## sailaway (Mar 12, 2009)

The_Blob said:


> do you mean:
> 
> Log Cabin Sport Shop
> Log Cabin Shop, Serving the Black Powder Community for Over 57 Years
> ...


That's the one, they get alot of my mad money.


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## SJZ (Nov 17, 2008)

The_Blob said:


> do you mean:
> 
> Log Cabin Sport Shop
> Log Cabin Shop, Serving the Black Powder Community for Over 57 Years
> ...


Thanks, I'll take a look!


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## Mac (Mar 24, 2009)

Dean said:


> I'd pick my 10/22 if I could only have 1 gun. Ammo can take most everything with a well placed shot, it's a quality well built accurate rifle, ammo is small and cheap right now.


My dad used to shoot deer off the back porch with a .22 all the time for extra meat. He would wait for them to get fairly close of course but he never failed to get one. so its not really a big deal. I love my shot gun, but you cant beat .22 for price and availability.


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## Expeditioner (Jan 6, 2009)

Mac said:


> My dad used to shoot deer off the back porch with a .22 all the time for extra meat. He would wait for them to get fairly close of course but he never failed to get one. so its not really a big deal. I love my shot gun, but you cant beat .22 for price and availability.


I like the .22 as well but would seriously have to think about using it on big game unless I had no other options. For me a shotgun is a better option in the area that I live and in the area where my BOL is located. As Dean has already stated the key is a well placed shot, and sometimes the factors that affect the shot are beyond your control.


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## sailaway (Mar 12, 2009)

This topic has really deviated from a discussion of the flintlock. Does anyone have one? Am I the only one who wants one?


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## Canadian (Dec 14, 2008)

If my collection gets full and I get bored. Sure. Other than that it's not really my thing.


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## endurance (Nov 26, 2008)

sailaway said:


> This topic has really deviated from a discussion of the flintlock. Does anyone have one? Am I the only one who wants one?


I don't know why you'd want one. I've had a black powder .32 and a .54, both used percussion caps and they were 1/1000th as reliable as any modern centerfire rifle or 1/100th as reliable as any modern rimfire. If my life is going to depend on a gun, why would I choose a weapon that can, at best, fire three rounds per minute, doesn't work in the rain, and misfires at least once in 20 shots?

I have yet to have any centerfire rifle fail to fire when I pulled the trigger and had a round in the chamber. I've only had it happen two or three times with a centerfire handgun out of well over 25,000 rounds fired and it was always with reloaded or remanufactured ammo. Even a .22 rifle is over 99% reliable. I generally get one dud in 500-1000 rounds. Even with my bolt action rifles I can fire five well placed shots in under 20 seconds, reload, and fire another five well placed shots before the minute is up. That's over three times the rate of fire of a black powder.

Why do you want one?


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

I have to agree with endurance. I have a .50 cal Thompson kit rifle I put together years ago, I used it once to hunt elk and came to the conclusion that a centerfire rifle would be far more effective in getting the meat in the freezer. As a young boy I used to make black powder, the first time I made it I bought all the ingredients from a drug store and then I realized I could make the charcoal from burned logs out of the fireplace. I never went as far as making my own saltpeter but that could easily be done. Sulphur can be bought from a farm furtilizer supply store (or found at your local volcano vent,lol.) Primer caps, pretty hard to make them, I tried but that's where a flintlock would be the best bet if all supply systems failed. Black powder is basically a hobby type thing to me, I've never been to black powder shoots but they have them locally along with Cowboy Action shoots that use black powder centerfire revolvers, rifles and shotguns. Out of the thousands of rounds of smokeless powder centerfire rifle, pistol and revolver cartridges I've shot over the years I've only had one that didn't go off and that was a Remington factory 30'06 round out of a box that I had just bought. I like that kind of reliability because it just might keep me alive when black powder might not give me the time for a next round. P.S. I never had a failure of a .22 rimfire.


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## endurance (Nov 26, 2008)

@Viking, what brand .22 do you use? Maybe it's time I changed.


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## sailaway (Mar 12, 2009)

endurance said:


> @Viking, what brand .22 do you use? Maybe it's time I changed.


Endurance, I have a Ruger 10/22, it is a nice work horse 22. You can set them up different ways and they offer a variety of magazines from a 10 shot to bananna clip to a drum. I also like hollow point ammo, makes bigger holes. They also make a bull barrel model.


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## doc66 (Apr 13, 2009)

I own a flintlock. It was built in the 1960's by the gunsmith at the Log Cabin mentioned here. The original owner had passed and the family didn't want it, so they had it racked at the Log Cabin for sale. I bought it because it is a beautiful piece of workmanship and the price was right. 

As for a practical survival gun... unless all ammo has dried up, no. It's a great nostalgia piece, it's fun to shoot and hunt with, but it's not practical nor fast to get into action. They are powder sensitive, load sensitive, and dampness can really screw with them if the shooter is not careful. 

You'd actually be better off with an inline muzzle loader and stocking up on primers than a flintlock.


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## Viking (Mar 16, 2009)

endurance said:


> @Viking, what brand .22 do you use? Maybe it's time I changed.


 I've been using the Federal .22 Value Pack copper plated. A number of years ago Federal really upgraded their quality, in large part because of making special .22 ammo for the Olympics. That quality rubbed off on the open market ammo they sell. Also I have used a lot of their Federal Premium 30'06 ammo for hunting and found them to be consistantly accurate, in fact I'll have to say I'd be hard pressed to make my hand loads as good as their Premium brand.


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## endurance (Nov 26, 2008)

Viking said:


> I've been using the Federal .22 Value Pack copper plated. A number of years ago Federal really upgraded their quality, in large part because of making special .22 ammo for the Olympics. That quality rubbed off on the open market ammo they sell. Also I have used a lot of their Federal Premium 30'06 ammo for hunting and found them to be consistantly accurate, in fact I'll have to say I'd be hard pressed to make my hand loads as good as their Premium brand.


Obviously they've moved away from that truncated cone then, I assume. Federals used to always jam in my 10/22 when they had a truncated cone, Remmington has always fed the best and the price is reasonable (plus you can get options like sub-sonic, target and high velocity). I'll have to pick up a box. I have a new Sig Mesquito .22 that's great for handgun practice, but it's very finicky on what it cycles on. Right now the Remmington high velocity rounds are the only thing that cycles consistently. I had some CCIs that were just pathetic in that gun, but they worked great in my 10/22. It also won't cycle standard velocity. Certainly not a survival gun, but a hell of a lot cheaper to train with than my 9mm.


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