# PDW..What it IS, What it AIN'T!



## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Personal Defense Weapon.

Bigger than a pistol, smaller than a Rifle, could be a pistol griped shotgun or bull pup.

First to get the idea, here's some examples available to civilians:

The AK pistol, basically a stock less SBR.[Man, these neat guns dried up quick huh?]One of those goofy thumb hole stocks can be made to fit one but save that for after THE EVENT or you're looking at ten in the pen if you're caught!Just a neat little car gun with a lot of punch and firepower or a close combat tool against semi armored enemies.be sure to put a light and laser on yours if you go this route.if you put a decent recoil brake on it you could in theory scope it, but no vertical grips until after the SHTF!that too is illegal.

The AR-15 pistol, same retard laws, no grips or stocks, BUT you can put an extended buffer tube on it that's almost a stock perfectly legally. and you can slip on a hunk of closed cell foam like used as pipe insulation.my understanding is its not a stock unless its permanently attached, so no glue or tape!just keep it in your pocket until its needed.Scope, light, Laser is mandatory.

Pistol caliber carbines be it the Marlin camp carbine, Uzi or some other, as long as the stock folds.this can also include stocked pistols.

"Assault pistols"bottom of the food chain here almost.not real accurate but concealable and high capacity.I'd leave these be except as car guns and home defense unless you can get good hits past 50 yards.these include but are not limited to:Mac-10, Uzi pistol/micro, M-9-11, Tec-9 and scorpions.

Pistol gripped stock-less shotguns:They have uses as Home defense, car guns and trail guns but anything past 20 yards is iffy even using slugs.certain jobs they are a must,other jobs will leave you open to being sniped.If I had an extra short 870 I'd break one down for my BOB.

Bullpup rifles.I've only had my mitts on two, a Styer Aug and a Bushmaster.I loved the handling and they might make great BOGs but they had enough flaws I let them pass.this must be your choice on this matter.

What a PDW is NOT:
It's not a sniper rifle.not even the bullpups could effectively fill that role.
It's not going to be super accurate, but more so than a pistol.
With the exception of the bull pups its not much at hunting.
50-100 yards is the best you'll wring out of one period.with the exception of the bull pups.

A PDW is a close range, high powered defensive tool capable of defensive/suppressing fire and accurate close quarters shots with light weight and heavier caliber.its merely a go to between point "A" and "B" but they do have uses which no other weapon will fill,check one out next time you're at a gun show and see which one fits your armory best.


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## prepare_survive_thrive (May 7, 2012)

Has anyone tried a calico? If so did u like it? i saw one recently for about 600$. Worth it?


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Yes and only if it comes with extra mags.


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## prepare_survive_thrive (May 7, 2012)

Pistol or carbine set up? Accuracy?


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Only shot one once.9mm carbine version.it never jammed and hit real good but to be honest,until I put 1000 rounds down the pipe I can't say bet your life on it.it ate my Mac-9's lunch accuracy wise however.


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## Whoisjohngall (May 21, 2012)

I have a Kel Tec SUB-2000 for my BOB. It is a carbine that folds in half. Comes in 9mm and .40, accepts a lot of different pistol mags. I have the Glock 17 version. If you get one that accepts Glock mags you are stuck with Glock, but I have read that if you get the Berretta or S&W or Sig (etc) versions all you need do is swap out the magazine catch to accept a different pistol's magazines. 

My SUB-2000 is 9mm and, from what I have read, has quite a punch because of the longer barrel (vs hand gun). At 50 yards it is supposed to carry as much force as a .357 magnum, at 200 yards as much as a .380 auto. It is so small that I carry it, folded, in my range bag next to my handguns. It is pretty accurate (though I hate those front sights) and I can hit a man sized target center of mass at 100 yards from standing position with it. 

It costs me $350 and I have but a 1000 rounds through it without misfire (except 3 FTF yesterday that I attribute to the cheap 33 round Korean mags that I was using). 

Several other Kel Tec products might make good BOB rifles. Their SU-16s fire 5.56, accept M-16 mags, have an AK style gas piston system, and fold in half for storage. If you have a C version (or the Charlie butt stock on another version) you can fire it folded. I have two of these carbines and love them. The only problem that I have ever had was a few FTEs that stopped when I replaced the extractor spring. I have taken these with me camping/hiking before, folded in half in my backpack and didn't even notice the extra weight. They feel flimsy, but seem to stand up to torture tests well. I would not use them to club Santa Ana's soldiers as they come over the walls, but otherwise...


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## Whoisjohngall (May 21, 2012)

Oh, and you can even put a bayonet on the SU-16, if you want too.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Sweet info!
Are YOU John Galt?

Found those IBM parts?


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## Whoisjohngall (May 21, 2012)

I wish I was John Galt. He seemed to hook up with Dagny pretty well.


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## prepare_survive_thrive (May 7, 2012)

I would love a sub 2k but like a lot of other keltec products they are hard to find.


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## Whoisjohngall (May 21, 2012)

Tell me about it. When I first got started on my gun collection I really wanted a SU-16CA. Looked high a low across two states without luck. Finally settled on the Alpha version at a gun show. Hated the sight (got the Bravo sights on it now) and the nifty butt mag storage is for little but show (got the Charlie stock on now)... Still wanted the CA version. Finally I got the nerve to try online and I hooked one from Gun Broker right off. I got my SUB-2000 from there too. I just looked and they have 18 listed right now for about $400-$500. If you have never tried it is great. You bid on the gun you want. When you win you mail the seller the payment along with a copy of your local gun shop's FFL (they will be happy to give it to you). The seller then ships the gun to the gun store and you pick it up from there. The gun store will charge you about $20 to hand the gun over to you after the background check.


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## prepare_survive_thrive (May 7, 2012)

I will try that thanks. Ever seen an M6 scout on there?


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## mojo4 (Feb 19, 2012)

I have a short barrel 12 gauge. Its loaded with #4 buck and every shot fires out 21 pellets that are .24 caliber pellets. Its roughly the same as unloading a .22 rifle mag all at once and its my get-back-jack weapon. Its lotsa fun! It was a 200 dollar shotty and me loves it!!


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Whoisjohngall said:


> I wish I was John Galt. He seemed to hook up with Dagny pretty well.


Would you believe I confused you with John Titor, the time traveling Civil war 2 veteran?



prepare_survive_thrive said:


> I would love a sub 2k but like a lot of other keltec products they are hard to find.


They're all over here.I see one every few months.


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## prepare_survive_thrive (May 7, 2012)

Magus said:


> They're all over here.I see one every few months.


How much are they running for the 9mm Glock clip?


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## prepare_survive_thrive (May 7, 2012)

Whoisjohngall said:


> Tell me about it. When I first got started on my gun collection I really wanted a SU-16CA. Looked high a low across two states without luck. Finally settled on the Alpha version at a gun show. Hated the sight (got the Bravo sights on it now) and the nifty butt mag storage is for little but show (got the Charlie stock on now)... Still wanted the CA version. Finally I got the nerve to try online and I hooked one from Gun Broker.
> 
> Man this site is amazing.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

prepare_survive_thrive said:


> How much are they running for the 9mm Glock clip?


Those are the only ones I've seen around here.6-8 depending on who has it.they guy up the road has one for $750 almost new.but its been decked out.


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## prepare_survive_thrive (May 7, 2012)

Magus said:


> Those are the only ones I've seen around here.6-8 depending on who has it.they guy up the road has one for $750 almost new.but its been decked out.


Decked out?? How much can u possibly do with it? All I've seen a scope/laser option and a rubber cheek rest to put on the bolt tube for more comfort.


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## rachilders (Oct 9, 2008)

You could build one if you have the time and inclination, that's what I did. I had a K-T PLR-16 pistol (basically, a 9" barreled SU-16 in 5.56) and decided I wanted to make it into a SBR. Kel-Tec already had all the parts I needed so I got a class III stamp, ordered the parts and I now have my nifty little PLR-16 SBR. All told I have about $1,000 in it (including the stamp) but that includes all the extras plus two different butt stocks. The actual swapping of the parts took less than 20 minutes and was a simple matter of removing two pins, swapping lowers and making sure everything worked. The hardest part was actually the wait, about 6 months, since all the parts were made by K-T to fit their SU-16 series rifles and simply dropped into place. FYI, I can hit clay pigeons at 100 yrds all day with this gun so it is MORE than accurate enough for SHTF or home defense situations.


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## Whoisjohngall (May 21, 2012)

Rachilders, sweet gun. You did quite a job to that PLR-16. 

Prepare_survive_thrive, I haven't seen an M-6 scout there. I have looked before, but Gun Broker is like eBay and things come and go a lot. Sure you want one of those, though? Single shot, .410 and .22LR. You could get just about the same with one of those .410 snake charmers. I have an AR-7/U.S. Henry survival rifle that costs me about $150. Semi auto .22LR, breaks down to fit in its own stock. With it in my bag and my S&W Governor on my hip I can put the same lead in the air as the Scout at a better clip than one round at a time.


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## prepare_survive_thrive (May 7, 2012)

Whoisjohngall said:


> Rachilders, sweet gun. You did quite a job to that PLR-16.
> 
> Prepare_survive_thrive, I haven't seen an M-6 scout there. I have looked before, but Gun Broker is like eBay and things come and go a lot. Sure you want one of those, though? Single shot, .410 and .22LR. You could get just about the same with one of those .410 snake charmers. I have an AR-7/U.S. Henry survival rifle that costs me about $150. Semi auto .22LR, breaks down to fit in its own stock. With it in my bag and my S&W Governor on my hip I can put the same lead in the air as the Scout at a better clip than one round at a time.


I checked and found 8 on there. Problem is they are about 800$. Yeah I would like one. I think you would be hard pressed to find a more simple,rugged gun. This would be a hunting gun no doubt, not to say you couldnt do the job one bullet at a time, but I would prefer a semi auto for security. I did see the Governor and was quite impressed. Idk Im up in the air right now on what i want. Im looking to spend less than 600 for a good pdw but dont know if thats gonna happen.


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## rachilders (Oct 9, 2008)

Thanks for the kind remarks about my PLR. Another option is if you want to use the classic .22lr as a PDW/survival gun, I'd choose my S&W M&P 15-22. While a .22 isn't my first choice in a self-defense weapon, they are good survival guns and a half-dozen rounds into an intruder from a .22lr will definitely get anyone's attention.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

Sweet molasses that's one sweet Kel-tek!

Yep.decked out.


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## rachilders (Oct 9, 2008)

It's become my go to "project" gun when I want to do something special to a gun I own. I might add a suppressor in the future but with the $200 cost of the Class III paperwork (plus the hassle + wait) along with the $500 minimum cost of a half way decent suppressor itself, I don't know if I want to deal with it all again.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

There's a decent company here in Ga that makes rim fire suppressors for cheap.[like 200$] but I forgot what its called.its in Augusta though.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

On an AR pistol use the sling for a stock. Instead of pulling a stock into your shoulder straight arm the sling taut. Be amazed how much it improves your groups.


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## Magus (Dec 1, 2008)

The tube on mine is long enough to be a stock. 
stings a tad when you use it for one though.


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## rachilders (Oct 9, 2008)

LongRider said:


> On an AR pistol use the sling for a stock. Instead of pulling a stock into your shoulder straight arm the sling taut. Be amazed how much it improves your groups.


I did that with my PLR before I added the butt stock. It definitely helps improve your aim and you don't have to deal with the class III paperwork/expense. Still, the stock is a more stable platform, making it easier to keep on target and much better for longer distance accuracy. BTW, from all the research I've done on the subject a rimfire suppressor should work with a .223/5.56 round as long as the barrel threads are the same but not as well as one designed for a centerfire weapon. Also, the rimfire suppressor wouldn't last as long. OTOH, I suppose if you don't plan on putting thousands of rounds through the suppressor, it wouldn't make much difference.


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

rachilders said:


> BTW, from all the research I've done on the subject a rimfire suppressor should work with a .223/5.56 round as long as the barrel threads are the same but not as well as one designed for a centerfire weapon.


It would have limited uses at your typical 55-62 grain bullet weights when subsonic. You are almost down to .22 LR effectiveness once you get down to subsonic speeds.

It you want a silenced weapon with good bullet weight (energy) at subsonic speeds, you should look into a .30 cal or larger rifle. A subsonic .308 or 7.62 x 39 still packs pretty good energy.

A 55 grain .223... not nearly as much.


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## truecarnage (Apr 25, 2010)

rachilders said:


> You could build one if you have the time and inclination, that's what I did. I had a K-T PLR-16 pistol (basically, a 9" barreled SU-16 in 5.56) and decided I wanted to make it into a SBR. Kel-Tec already had all the parts I needed so I got a class III stamp, ordered the parts and I now have my nifty little PLR-16 SBR. All told I have about $1,000 in it (including the stamp) but that includes all the extras plus two different butt stocks. The actual swapping of the parts took less than 20 minutes and was a simple matter of removing two pins, swapping lowers and making sure everything worked. The hardest part was actually the wait, about 6 months, since all the parts were made by K-T to fit their SU-16 series rifles and simply dropped into place. FYI, I can hit clay pigeons at 100 yrds all day with this gun so it is MORE than accurate enough for SHTF or home defense situations.


That's so cool I'd love to have a SBR but I would never agree to the terms that come with it.
But your setup looks great


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## rachilders (Oct 9, 2008)

Thanks. I'm trying to think of something practical (and relatively inexpensive for once) I can do with it next. 

As for any terms that I had to agreed to, there weren't any. Just a bunch of hoops to jump thru and paperwork to complete. Actually, in hindsight there were really no more things involved than I had to do when I got my concealed handgun permit. As I said earlier, the most difficult part of the whole process was probably the 6 month wait!


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