# Sticky  Got poop?



## Magus

I haven't seen this covered in a thread of it's own yet so let's do that:

Scenario:
You're shut in your home by riots, a blizzard, fallout, whatever.water's off, not coming back for a long time, You can't cross your legs for 6 months!

Fear not,Magus has your relief right here! you need:

5 or 10 gallon plastic bucket and a lid.

Solid wooden toilet seat modified to fit flush over the bucket[remove the lid or it falls off.]

Plastic Trash bags.

1 large bungee cord.

Kitty litter.to absorb #1.

At least one 50 Lb bag of quick lime and a soup can to dip it with.to cover #2 and keep flies down.

{In case you're from Mars, #1 is pee #2 is poo.nuff said?}

A gallon sprayer bottle full of your favorite disinfectant.

A few cases of toilet paper.

To begin,line the bucket with the trash bag and scoop in one can of cat litter.

Place the seat over the bucket and put the bungee cord around the rim of the bucket to hold the bag in place.

After you're done your duty, sprinkle the quick lime over the remains, give it a shot of disinfectant and put the lid over the can.a set up like this ideally is emptied once every day for a family and once every day or two for a loner but it can be made to last a week if emptying it might be worse than dealing with poo smell.

:shtf:


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## OldCootHillbilly

Seeins how ya ain't gonna flush it, ya can use paper towel sted a the tp.

Ya can sprinkle a bit a bakin soda in there ifin ya like, but the lime should keep the worst a the smell down.

Try ta bury it when ya get rid a it, but keep it away from any sources a ground water.

Oh yeah, 13 gallon trash bags work perty well in a 5 gallon bucket.

We bought a porta loo, 5 gallon bucket with a toilet ring on it. Hey, it was on sale cheaper then just the bucket!


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## Magus

The baking soda would keep one from getting sick of the disinfectant smell for sure! good idea!


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## SlobberToofTigger

Another idea is lay in a stock of sawdust and just add that to the bucket instead of all the other stuff. According to these guys it works great!

http://www.appropedia.org/How_to_make_and_use_a_sawdust_toilet_(original)
http://wildbee.org/2008/10/19/my-sawdust-toilet-experiment/


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## goatlady

The above is a viable plan for households that are connected to city sanitation systems. Those of us who live rural and have septic tanks and a handy pond can still flush like civilized folks! LOL. Also it's not hard to expose the opening of a septic tank and build your outhouse right there! Lime is good.

I have a friend in Europe with a BOL that has no bathroom. She uses the sawdust bucket method and swears it's just as good as traditional indoor plumbing. No fuss, no muss and totally no smells.


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## Magus

NICE!

Makes note since I'm swimming in saw dust at certain times of the year.


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## SlobberToofTigger

Magus said:


> NICE!
> 
> Makes note since I'm swimming in saw dust at certain times of the year.


Make note to not use sawdust from treated lumber.


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## bunkerbob

Big deal Magus, I live off the grid and on septic. Hell, I have two toilets in the 'pit' one marine manual pump that pump into the septic also and a lugable Loo with bio bags for backup


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## Magus

Lucky you.not everyone else here does.the post was for them.
I don't require anything but extra TP myself, feels good don't it?


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## *Andi

Thanks for the info ... we are on a septic tank system and use pond and/or creek water when need to.

Also we have our very own Johnny house (outhouse) lol. It was here when we bought the place. Only had to use it one or twice but it is there if need be. (Once you clear out the spiders and snakes. )


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## chris88idaho

Umm. If you are on city sewer and the lines loose water pressure, is the gray water going to back up through your toilet? Yuck! No way to cut your toilet off that I am aware of...

Any plumbers out there?


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## eddy_dvyvan

I spose it could if there were flooding in someplaces.


Quick dry cement!! 

haha


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## mdprepper

chris88idaho said:


> Umm. If you are on city sewer and the lines loose water pressure, is the gray water going to back up through your toilet? Yuck! No way to cut your toilet off that I am aware of...
> 
> Any plumbers out there?


Here is a thread discussing this:

http://www.preparedsociety.com/forum/f20/how-do-you-stop-back-up-when-shtf-10644/


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## SlobberToofTigger

chris88idaho said:


> Umm. If you are on city sewer and the lines loose water pressure, is the gray water going to back up through your toilet? Yuck!


Grey water is a term that when used with waste water means water that does not contain human waste. So for example water from your shower or your sink. Black water is water from your toilet.

All that aside it depends. All modern sewage systems use up lift stations to overcome terrain issues so where you are in relation to that uplift station on the trunk line will determine if you are going to have an issue. If you have an uplift station within a few hundred feet of your house you are probably in bad shape. If you do not have one anywhere near you then you are probably in not so bad shape.

As for what to do if you are on the shit end of the line mdprepper pointed a out a good post on that topic.


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## Magus

How to block the loo:

Drain the tank.
Line the poop hole with a plastic bag.
Cram a big Nerf ball on it.

Great for changing wax seals too.


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## SlobberToofTigger

It is also probably worth mentioning that the toilet is not going to be your big issue. Most peoples bathtubs and showers have drains that are at least 6 inches lower than their toilets, bowel water level so if you are in a bad location versus your neighbors (aka on the poo receiving end) expect nasty stuff in your shower/bathtub 1st. My neighborhood is 9ft above sea level, some of us are 9.5 feet some are 8.5 feet. The low guy on the street gets the poo 1st when the uplift stations power goes out.


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## Magus

Heheheh...yup. I'm on a tank.sucks being them!


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## Emerald

I big + 1 on the sawdust vs. Cat litter... sawdust will decompose/compost while cat litter is forever, and ever and ever and ever. most of it is clay and doesn't melt and will just be there where it gets put. at least by composting/decomposing the waste with sawdust it will get rid of some of the worst pathogens naturally.
cat litter won't break down and who knows how long the pathogens will remain active in that moist almost permanent clump of poo/urine/cat litter.


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## kyhoti

My plan differs slightly; liquids go one place and solids, another. Cat litter is my desiccant of choice for solids, and the liquids stay liquid. I've got dozens of old 2-liter bottles that are just not good enough for water storage, but they work great for sequestering urine. I have a test-batch that has kept integrity for over a year now. Gross, I know, but I had to test the concept. The ladies complain a bit about the process, whereby they go in one container, then transfer to waste container, but us fellas just go straight in the bottle. The upside is that the cat litter goes much further without having to absorb pee. The downside? Having bottles of pee that will have to be dealt with at a future date. 

One thing I have added in the outhouse at one BOL is wood-ash from the fireplace. A half a can dumped right on top of the fresh poo really cuts down the smell; we've been using this method for years, and it's my guess that the ash makes lye, and the lye controls bacterial growth. Anyone else do the wood-ash in the outhouse?


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## Emerald

kyhoti said:


> My plan differs slightly; liquids go one place and solids, another. Cat litter is my desiccant of choice for solids, and the liquids stay liquid. I've got dozens of old 2-liter bottles that are just not good enough for water storage, but they work great for sequestering urine. I have a test-batch that has kept integrity for over a year now. Gross, I know, but I had to test the concept. The ladies complain a bit about the process, whereby they go in one container, then transfer to waste container, but us fellas just go straight in the bottle. The upside is that the cat litter goes much further without having to absorb pee. The downside? Having bottles of pee that will have to be dealt with at a future date.
> 
> One thing I have added in the outhouse at one BOL is wood-ash from the fireplace. A half a can dumped right on top of the fresh poo really cuts down the smell; we've been using this method for years, and it's my guess that the ash makes lye, and the lye controls bacterial growth. Anyone else do the wood-ash in the outhouse?


Great idea for the urine.. but do another test with real feces and cat litter and deposit somewhere outside.. let me know how that goes -never hurts to do a dry run of your system..


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## oldasrocks

For those who live in apartments or a high rise I suggested a "poop cannon" in an old Forum. In practice this developed into a catapult easily built with 2X4's and springs. Tie the waste up in plastic bags and fling it out a window.

Now this may not be the politically correct way of waste disposal but in bad times a person does what he has to to keep the place clean.


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## Emerald

oldasrocks said:


> For those who live in apartments or a high rise I suggested a "poop cannon" in an old Forum. In practice this developed into a catapult easily built with 2X4's and springs. Tie the waste up in plastic bags and fling it out a window.
> 
> Now this may not be the politically correct way of waste disposal but in bad times a person does what he has to to keep the place clean.


High heels and big brimmed hats developed due to the practice of chamber pot emptying..


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## Magus

Ew. dysentery for everybody!
yay?


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## Emerald

The $hit cannon wars of 2013... no one survived...


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## oldasrocks

It might stop trespassers crossing the yard.


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## Emerald

oldasrocks said:


> It might stop trespassers crossing the yard.


Snarfle!!!!:lolsmash: but that brings us down to the level of poo flinging Rhesus monkeys..


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## oldasrocks

But can they build a catapult? Besides our will be in bags. If it makes you feel better put a bow or ribbon on the bag before you toss it.


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## Emerald

oldasrocks said:


> But can they build a catapult? Besides our will be in bags. If it makes you feel better put a bow or ribbon on the bag before you toss it.


How about.. a little note that says "with love.. made by me just for you"  Thanks for the chuckle!!!:2thumb:


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## Magus

Mix it up with stale p1ss and make poo balloons.

*Barf!*


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## oldasrocks

Put the note inside the box with Christmas wrapping and they will probably take it home with them saving you the cleanup later.


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## kyhoti

Emerald said:


> Great idea for the urine.. but do another test with real feces and cat litter and deposit somewhere outside.. let me know how that goes -never hurts to do a dry run of your system..


It works pretty well, even though my better half has not seen the end result of the trial runs here at the house. The trick is setting up a disposal field that is out of the way, yet accessible enough to make regular disposal practical. Out of the way matters, because it involves a "moving slit trench"; by that I mean digging a trench about 12" wide and 8"-10" deep, in a line about four feet long. I dig just a little at a time, enough to dispose one load, and recover with soil. Keeping the waste in the bacteriologic active layer of soil is important, as that is what "composts" the poo and takes care of the human bugs. It takes about a year to render the waste, hence the "out of the way location". I have been using these slit trenches for a while (years now) in long-term camps, and they keep odor down pretty well. Going from bucket to slit trench is really about comfort (squatting over a trench ain't fun); if we can't go outside for a while after an Event, then burying happens much later. The clay from the litter does persist, but since I shake out the dessicated waste (I use a super-sized cat scooper for MalWart) and don't put excess clay in the ground, it hasn't been much of an issue. Oh yeah, did I mention, it's clay-based litter, not that crystal stuff? The crystal stuff is awesome for the cat, but it never goes away as it is silicon-based IIRC.

Anyhow, I mark the trench with upright sticks in the ground, just so I don't step in a fresh section of trench when preparing a new section of trench. I usually leave about six inches of soil in between sections so that I don't breach what was recently laid out. It's just foul when that happens. The initial lay-out is not bad, as the litter has largely dried the poo; after it's been in the ground for a bit and has rehydrated, it's can be pretty smelly. I don't use a respirator during the process, just an N95 and gloves; have yet to contract anything nasty. If the smell does get to me, I rub a little menthol rub on my mustache under the mask and that works pretty well.

The urine disposal from the bottles is just foul. There's no way around it. In some bottles, it's just stinky, but in others, trace bacteria have infested and it reeks like death on wheels. I've tried broadcast spraying, burying and dilution, and it is still a foul smell. It kills any plant it gets on, and the odor persists for weeks, especially during the summer. In a long-term event, I may have to modify disposal using litter, but that would really cut into the supply. I only have a half dozen bags socked away now, so it's pretty tight as things sit. Of course, if it's that long-term, I'll be building me an outhouse!


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## oldasrocks

Urine with water 10 parts and one part urine makes great fertilizer. The reason it kills plants its too hot being 17% nitrogen. Pour it into a leaf pile which will decompose the leaves faster and make nice black dirt in a year or two.


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## kyhoti

oldasrocks said:


> Urine with water 10 parts and one part urine makes great fertilizer. The reason it kills plants its too hot being 17% nitrogen. Pour it into a leaf pile which will decompose the leaves faster and make nice black dirt in a year or two.


So at the 10:1 dilution, that reads as 1.7% Nitrogen per volume; how does that compare to solid fertilizer?


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## oldasrocks

Lot of differant fertilizers out there. Read the labels on the liquid ones. Remember any liquid fertilizer will uptake into the plant faster so be real careful. Remember also a plant needs more than nitrogen to grow properly.


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## Emerald

kyhoti said:


> It works pretty well, even though my better half has not seen the end result of the trial runs here at the house. The trick is setting up a disposal field that is out of the way, yet accessible enough to make regular disposal practical. Out of the way matters, because it involves a "moving slit trench"; by that I mean digging a trench about 12" wide and 8"-10" deep, in a line about four feet long. I dig just a little at a time, enough to dispose one load, and recover with soil. Keeping the waste in the bacteriologic active layer of soil is important, as that is what "composts" the poo and takes care of the human bugs. It takes about a year to render the waste, hence the "out of the way location". I have been using these slit trenches for a while (years now) in long-term camps, and they keep odor down pretty well. Going from bucket to slit trench is really about comfort (squatting over a trench ain't fun); if we can't go outside for a while after an Event, then burying happens much later. The clay from the litter does persist, but since I shake out the dessicated waste (I use a super-sized cat scooper for MalWart) and don't put excess clay in the ground, it hasn't been much of an issue. Oh yeah, did I mention, it's clay-based litter, not that crystal stuff? The crystal stuff is awesome for the cat, but it never goes away as it is silicon-based IIRC.
> 
> Anyhow, I mark the trench with upright sticks in the ground, just so I don't step in a fresh section of trench when preparing a new section of trench. I usually leave about six inches of soil in between sections so that I don't breach what was recently laid out. It's just foul when that happens. The initial lay-out is not bad, as the litter has largely dried the poo; after it's been in the ground for a bit and has rehydrated, it's can be pretty smelly. I don't use a respirator during the process, just an N95 and gloves; have yet to contract anything nasty. If the smell does get to me, I rub a little menthol rub on my mustache under the mask and that works pretty well.
> 
> The urine disposal from the bottles is just foul. There's no way around it. In some bottles, it's just stinky, but in others, trace bacteria have infested and it reeks like death on wheels. I've tried broadcast spraying, burying and dilution, and it is still a foul smell. It kills any plant it gets on, and the odor persists for weeks, especially during the summer. In a long-term event, I may have to modify disposal using litter, but that would really cut into the supply. I only have a half dozen bags socked away now, so it's pretty tight as things sit. Of course, if it's that long-term, I'll be building me an outhouse!


That is just what I wanted to hear.. I've had horrible problems with clay cat litter.. Someone(no one fessed up) didn't take care of it properly and I ended up with a cat feces tomb in a part of the yard. Sure the poo on the outside did rot and disappear but that litter pile was there for two years and didn't even slump down or melt or anything.. I finally put my foot down and told the boys that I didn't care who did or did not dump it near my house they were to dig it all out and dispose of it.. when they cut into the clump that poo in there was not dry or gone it was entombed and still stinky moist and probably super dangerous. 
Human waste in that would have been even more dangerous. the clay doesn't ever break down either. I know this could be much more dangerous if people are using this and then dumping huge 5 gallon mounds of clay/poo land mines in their yard or as others here suggest someone else's yard or even the vacant lot. 
At least with sawdust the whole thing will compost down and become inert in a few months(maybe a bit longer depending on the season)


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## kyhoti

The key is shaking out the waste. They dumped the whole litter box I assume, which just ends up making a piece of pottery. When put in the soil, that allows the microbes to work on it, but it does take time. I agree, sawdust would biodegrade faster but my concern is for a lock-down situation where I would have to bag and store the turds for a while. How does sawdust do then, if you've tried something like that? Does it desiccate enough?


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## oldasrocks

I stock several bags of lime. Lime mixed in would help everything break down and become less dangerous. In retrospect I should have built a composting toilet so we could use the fertilizer if needed.

We're set up better than most. After that ice storm a few years ago my DW made me build her a nice outhouse. We have 5 acres so no problem with that here. We have a full house genny but the well is on another box so I have to fire up a 2nd genny to get water.


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## Emerald

kyhoti said:


> The key is shaking out the waste. They dumped the whole litter box I assume, which just ends up making a piece of pottery. When put in the soil, that allows the microbes to work on it, but it does take time. I agree, sawdust would biodegrade faster but my concern is for a lock-down situation where I would have to bag and store the turds for a while. How does sawdust do then, if you've tried something like that? Does it desiccate enough?


The key is not to mix urine in with the sawdust and poo. make separate containers. sawdust/urine/poo heats up and decomposes in the bucket.


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## SimpleJoys

Diluted urine makes a high nitrogen fertilizer; poo and sawdust composts and can be used on fruit trees. If it's composted hot enough, it can be used anywhere, but people don't like to think about it.

I son't understand the concept of trash once there isn't anything new being made (on a grand scale--there will always be blacksmiths, etc.). Almost everything can be used for something else, and if we're all growing our own crops and gardens for survival, every bit of fertilizer is going to be necessary, whether you're in town or in the country.


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## Magus

fertilize the crops you feed the livestock with it.problem solved.


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## LincTex

oldasrocks said:


> Urine with water 10 parts and one part urine makes great fertilizer. The reason it kills plants its too hot being 17% nitrogen. Pour it into a leaf pile which will decompose the leaves faster and make nice black dirt in a year or two.


Spot on. Two great uses for it.

I imagine most any form of blackwater can be used to fertilize cereal grains (for animals) if applied properly (diluted).

I like the idea of sawdust/poo compost, that seems to be the most practical way of handling it. Burial seems to take much longer (due to lack of oxygen?)


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## LongRider

Magus said:


> Lucky you.not everyone else here does.the post was for them.
> I don't require anything but extra TP myself, feels good don't it?


use cotton and flannel rags with a bucket of 10% bleach by the toilet. Causes far less strain on your septic or out house.


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## faithmarie

Sorry.... I had too


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## faithmarie

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## urbansurvivor

I'm good on that nice topic and must be thought of... Wow if it's that bad I have options I'm close to a forest preserve... time to dig a hole...


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## kyhoti

Ok, update on the buried poo project. Now that it has gotten colder, the decomp has slowed in my manure pit. It is still warmer than atmosphere, by far, and steams if the surface dirt is disturbed, but the microbes are eating slower. How do I know? The trench sinks in as the material is digested by the microbes. Stuff that i put in there recently is sinking less quickly, ergo, its slowing down. I am considering tossing in a little vegetable waste to recharge the microbial colony and keep the temp up. May add a cover of mulched leaves if I end up with extras after topping off my raised beds. 

The kitty litter doth persist longer than I thought it would. I am guessing that there may be some aluminum added to control microbial activity in the litterbox and that may be why it doesn't get intergrated with the rest as rapidly. Anybody know the make-up of clay litter? The bag wasn't very informative. I may have to end this test and run a comparative test using sawdust.


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## cowboyhermit

From our experience sawdust is definitely the way to go.
People used to use lime, lye, wood ash, all kinds of chemicals in the outhouse and I think it just makes it worse, these things make it nearly impossible for aerobic bacteria to function. If sawdust is applied liberally and regularly it works great.
The humanure info is great if a bit wacky.
I would not use humanure on anything directly to be consumed but we have no shortage of nutrients and compost out here. Let it sit a long time and it is completely safe, maybe plant so trees to use the nutrients.

As far as sewer backing up in a municipal system, instal a backup valve if you can possibly afford it, they are not that bad.


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## pawpaw

kyhoti said:


> Ok, update on the buried poo project. Now that it has gotten colder, the decomp has slowed in my manure pit. It is still warmer than atmosphere, by far, and steams if the surface dirt is disturbed, but the microbes are eating slower. How do I know? The trench sinks in as the material is digested by the microbes. Stuff that i put in there recently is sinking less quickly, ergo, its slowing down. I am considering tossing in a little vegetable waste to recharge the microbial colony and keep the temp up. May add a cover of mulched leaves if I end up with extras after topping off my raised beds.
> 
> The kitty litter doth persist longer than I thought it would. I am guessing that there may be some aluminum added to control microbial activity in the litterbox and that may be why it doesn't get intergrated with the rest as rapidly. Anybody know the make-up of clay litter? The bag wasn't very informative. I may have to end this test and run a comparative test using sawdust.


Litter clay is exactly that. Clay. It's also identical to the bags of 'Zip-zorb' they sell for soaking up automotive grease & spills. You could literally reconstitute it & throw it on a potter's wheel to make something LESS useful. Rid-Ex, or even yeast packets could jump start your pile or pit. As a last resort, you could toss the music my Son listens to into it....


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## Eximius64

Wow I never thought of that, good thinking!


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## Caribou

My favorite camping toilet is an appropriate sized plywood box with no bottom. Cut a hole in the top and mount a toilet seat. Dig a hole, place the box over the hole and um, you know.

Whatever answer you come up with remember, flies transmit disease. Keep it covered or keep a lid on it.


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## Bobbb

On the subject of urine as a fertilizer, what I'm researching is the feasibility of putting in a few urinals and the pipes lead into a tank outside which has a smaller urine holding tank inside fitted with a toilet float valve and when full it releases the urine into the main holding tank along with a larger release of water to dilute the urine and then it's ready to go into the garden.

Building inspectors have never heard of this, so I might have to do this without official sanction. One thing I did discover is that the waste pipes leading from urinals can develop a scaling problem from the uric acid. Another thing I discovered is that this would best be done on a new house rather than as a retrofit, but with a new house comes the problem of explaining to the plumbing inspector why certain pipes are being put into the walls and not connected to the main plumbing of the house.


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## eddy_dvyvan

Bobbb said:


> On the subject of urine as a fertilizer


Sounds identical to how things are handled in this country. Anything outside the box or not conforming with their low expectations is not allowed unless you pay a fortune for independant testing ect ect.

I wonder if the scale will be as big of a problem as you think?. Maybe just some bicarb and vinnigar twice year or so will keep the pipes clean?

To simplify it abit couldnt you just connect it upto a grey water system. Combined with daily shower/washing water im sure it would dilute it enough.


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## Bobbb

As the only male in the household, so far, one urinal isn't going to produce that much urine-based fertilizer.

I've looked into these urine separating toilets but haven't come across anyone who actually installed one. Anyone here?


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## eddy_dvyvan

Must be a chinese invention.

it appears like the old fella would be resting on it. Dont think i could stomach that lol


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## oldasrocks

Teach the girls to go standing up.


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## Bobbb

oldasrocks said:


> Teach the girls to go standing up.


That would be like a Bizarro Universe Sweden where they're working to outlaw men peeing standing up.

Sweden, what the hell?

There is a war coming. Sweden is the aggressor. The victim is your penis. A political party in Sweden has tabled a motion to ban urinals in office restrooms and wants men to squat to pee.​


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## faithmarie

http://kriscarr.com/blog/your-guide-to-healthy-poop/

LOL


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## LincTex

faithmarie said:


> http://kriscarr.com/blog/your-guide-to-healthy-poop/ LOL


She and my wife would get along. 
They think alike, and even look alike, LOL!


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## faithmarie

LOL funny ... BUT true:laugh::eyebulge:


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## LincTex

faithmarie said:


> LOL funny ... BUT true:laugh::eyebulge:


No thanks, I'll pass


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## swjohnsey

Up north where some folks still use outhouses they ask the guys to pee in the woods. Bert in The World's Fastest Indian peed on his lemon tree. I can't see it being a big boost by waste not want not.


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## LincTex

swjohnsey said:


> Bert, in the movie: "The World's Fastest Indian" peed on his lemon tree.


I had to read it a few times before I got it. 
The punctuation should help others


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## cowboyhermit

Man this thread has gone to, well ... 
Not sure what I could add to make this thread more uncomfortable but I will try with this unbiased,informative video about "sawdust" toilets.


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## swjohnsey

When you get further north on the Appalachian Trail some of the outhouses have been replaced by composting toilets. They seem like alot of work for a short time solution but a pretty good idea for someone living off the grid permanently.


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## faithmarie




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## cnsper

SlobberToofTigger said:


> Another idea is lay in a stock of sawdust and just add that to the bucket instead of all the other stuff. According to these guys it works great!
> 
> http://www.appropedia.org/How_to_make_and_use_a_sawdust_toilet_(original)
> http://wildbee.org/2008/10/19/my-sawdust-toilet-experiment/


I can attest that the sawdust works and there are no flies. You can then also add it to the compost pile. Also be sure to put some sawdust in the bottom so nothing sticks to the bucket. I just dumped and rinsed the bucket and then added some sawdust to the bottom.


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## Kodeman

There is no town water or sewer where we live, when the power goes out for any length of time I disconnect my well pump and install a pitcher pump which gives us all the water needed for washing up, cooking and flushing. Anyone with a well pump should have a pitcher pump for backup IMHO.


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## LincTex

Kodeman said:


> Anyone with a well pump should have a pitcher pump for backup IMHO.


Pitcher pumps have very little suction head, I think about 15-20 feet IIRC. Your water table must be very high. The only thing I could use a pitcher pump for would be to get water from the first floor to the second floor.


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## cowboyhermit

I agree that everyone should have multiple ways to get water for sure but just would interject that hand pumping then carrying water to the house to flush the toilet is gonna get old real quick for most people. If you don't use enough water you are liable to run into problems, especially if you are on septic which will of course have to be emptied at some point


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## Kodeman

LincTex said:


> Pitcher pumps have very little suction head, I think about 15-20 feet IIRC. Your water table must be very high. The only thing I could use a pitcher pump for would be to get water from the first floor to the second floor.


You are correct, I have an 18ft. point well that is located in my basement floor which is around 8ft. below grade. I'm guessing the point is around 26fr. underground. I have never run dry in 37yrs.
My bad for not realizing other people have different situations than me.


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## Grape Ape

goatlady said:


> The above is a viable plan for households that are connected to city sanitation systems. Those of us who live rural and have septic tanks and a handy pond can still flush like civilized folks! LOL. *Also it's not hard to expose the opening of a septic tank and build your outhouse right there!* Lime is good.
> 
> I have a friend in Europe with a BOL that has no bathroom. She uses the sawdust bucket method and swears it's just as good as traditional indoor plumbing. No fuss, no muss and totally no smells.


It would not be a good idea to open a septic and put an outhouse on top of the tank. First a septic system relies on anaerobic action to break down the waste. To open the septic and put an outhouse on the top of it would allow for the entry of oxygen into the system causing the breakdown to be affected. It could get really nasty really fast. The second issue would be the introduction of solid waste without the needed water to help it to properly breakdown. When we flush at least a gallon of water goes down into the system to help flow the anaerobically digested waste out into the drain field. The amount of fluid input through an outhouse type set up would only be urine which isn't nearly what is needed to keep a properly operating septic system working properly. Eventually negating the septic system completely.

If you go to the effort of an outhouse you would be better to just build a completely separate outhouse away from the house to be used for such. Leaving the septic system as is to be used as designed when you can.

Another option for urine waste is a funnel through the wall. Put a pipe in the wall that goes down to a hole outside of the house. make a large hole line it will gravel then cover it with sand and a layer of earth. Put a funnel in the pipe when needed and do your business. The urine will flow down the pipe into the "pit" and there you have it. Once in a while after bathing or doing dishes dump some of the gray water down the funnel to help keep the pipe from getting build up in it. Plan the pit to handle all of the urine waste you think it will get plus some. My uncle lived out in the woods and did the funnel thing through the wall in his garage just one of the long funnels like used for filling an automatic transmission. Only he had no pit for it to go into and one day went around behind his garage (an overgrown area he seldom went to or messed with). Now for years he and anyone in the garage who needed to whizzed out the funnel. The area around the funnel output was dead from the urine and stunk to high heaven where it had dried on the wall and such. So plan for the output to go into the ground where it will be out of sight out of mind and then all you have to haul is #2.


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## LincTex

Grape Ape said:


> First a septic system relies on anaerobic action to break down the waste. To open the septic and put an outhouse on the top of it would allow for the entry of oxygen into the system causing the breakdown to be affected.


Not necessarily... the big craze now is adding aeration to the effluent before it flows to the drain field. This helps to prevent the "creeping black sludge" from filling up the drainfield and plugging it.

We are learning that oxygen can (and does) have a lot of benefits in breaking down effluent before it flows out to the drainfield.


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## Grape Ape

LincTex said:


> Not necessarily... the big craze now is adding aeration to the effluent before it flows to the drain field. This helps to prevent the "creeping black sludge" from filling up the drainfield and plugging it.
> 
> We are learning that oxygen can (and does) have a lot of benefits in breaking down effluent before it flows out to the drainfield.


I don't know if I believe you. Seems to me you are just talking shit.

JK!! I learn something new every day. Can an older septic system be retrofit? Will it reduce the amount of built up sludge that occurs in a system requiring it to be pumped occasionally? Can it be done to a system without the means of electricity etc... so it can continue to do it's job in a TEOTW situation?


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## LincTex

Yep... just search the web for *effluent aeration system drainfield*

also search *"drainfield rehabilitation"*

http://www.septicairaid.com/drainfieldproblem.html
Effective Septic Aeration Pays for Itself in Pumping Costs
It is widely recommended that septic tanks be pumped every two to five years. However, recent studies indicate that adding a septic aerator to a well functioning tank, may result in only having to pump it every 10 to 12 years. Septic tanks without aeration break down approximately 60 to 70 percent of the solids. Whereas, adding effective septic aeration breaks down 90 to 98 percent of solids and at a much faster rate.

http://wexcoenviro.com/water-solutions-services-products/treatment-products/mbd/municipal-products/
Extend the life of your septic system with MBD aeration
MBD-micro-bubbles
All conventional septic systems have a finite useful life even when used as designed. Regular wear and tear as the system ages will compromise optimal function. Natural clogging by the byproducts of treating sewage eventually causes biological failure of the drainfield or mound.
Micro Bubble Diffusion (MBD) can be used to preserve new or help recover existing drainfields and mounds by reducing the waste strength that causes them to fail.

http://www.nesc.wvu.edu/pdf/WW/publications/pipline/PL_WI05.pdf


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## cantseeme

One thing that would be useful for being stuck in the house for extended periods of time would be a composting toilet I know it was kind of talked about here but there a few things that can be said. If you were to have a toilet lid that could attach to a five gallon bucket you would be on the right track, Next you need to seperate the urine and the feces so for guys it is easy but for women you might want to consider a urine diverter which is like a funnel or something that diverts the urine to another container or out the wall onto a compost pile. Then you would need to stock up on five gallon buckets (not to hard) and saw dust(which is pretty much up for grabs most places) If you have those three things then you are off to a good start. So all you have to do is put your toilet seat on to your bucket and only poop in it. If urine gets into the bucket your gonna have a bad time because the combo is what causes the smell.after you get done pooping you can put your TP in a paper sack to be burned or leave it in the bucket and then cover up the whole deposit with a layer of sawdust. Once the bucket it is full you can either seal it up and keep it inside (if you have to stay inside) or you can put it into a separate compost pile. Which would be left to compost for two years minimum and then put on non food plants such as trees or flowers. So feasible if you had the space you could not leave the house for a long time as long as you have buckets, lids, sawdust and place to store the sealed container. There is a great thread on permies.com about this topic with alot of awesome info http://www.permies.com/forums/f-77/composting-toilet


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## headhunter

For the ladies, there is a compamy that make a small portable urnal. They sell a female adaptor calling it "the lady J" I believe . It is a contoured funnel for the female.
Next , if you are going to build yourself an outhouse. While digging "crib the walls" . When you get your hole down to head deep a post for each corner and boards connecting them. You don't want the wall comming down and burying you and when you begin filling it you sure as heck don't want your hard work to be filled with dirt or your house to go for a downward ride with you in it.
Last, instead of using a "scarce resource" like baking soda, Having a bucket with wood ash in it and sprikling that over your poo will help with the smell. I read elsewhere, someone recommended sprinkling dirt . Why would you do that after your hard work of digging it out to begin with. (Please, when it gets full move it while there is at least a foot of room before it is overfull or you will really hate yourself.)


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## fondini

You can use your neighbors house!


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## redneck_packrat

fondini said:


> You can use your neighbors house!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Survival Forum


Fondini, that's the whole concept behind the turdapult!


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## Reighven

Somewhat along the same line as this thread: what about toilet paper? What happens when that runs out? What are common substitutes? I seem to remember reading that folks used handfuls of hay during the Middle Ages. I guess that would work. Just have to be careful of getting a grass cut lol. 


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## cowboyhermit

Reighven, personally I think washable cloths sometimes called "family cloths" are a sustainable option. Seems gross to most people today but if you ever have to deal with babies or the elderly then I find it hard to understand why this is worse. 
Water in one form or another was and is still used by many today and actually can get you much cleaner than wads of paper.
Of course there are plenty of other things that you can wipe with but they are generally all less pleasant or sustainable.


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## oldasrocks

In Wal-Mart they are selling several kinds of bug spray and Roundup with a battery powered little sprayer included. Its a little awkward and would be better if the nozzle was bent into a L but works. Then you need a water supply and AA batteries though.

There have been countless threads on this problem and other needed paper products. No easy answer. vract:


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## LincTex

cowboyhermit said:


> Water in one form or another was and is still used by many today and actually can get you much cleaner than wads of paper.


A spring-fed Bidet would be ideal!  (Hmm... maybe too cold of water tamp)

Then next best would be water from an elevated tank near a windmill powered well. Not a bad idea....


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## oldasrocks

Water tank, foot pump and bidet seat on toilet. Extreme cases would be a foot pump to an air tank for pressure through a water tank to the bidet.

You could pump up the pressure while pooping and have a high pressure wash--or enema if the nozzle was located wrong.


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## cowboyhermit

Back in the day people would use a ladle and clean water and pour strategically  I don't think that works all that great without some sort of wiping. Of course the Greeks used a sponge on a stick, others used a cloth, neither all that attractive but would actually get the person much cleaner if rinsed properly.

For modern options I think the hand pump sprayers seem like a viable option, nozzle can be bent like oldasrocks mentioned and they put out enough pressure you might not have to wipe or scrub first.

There are also "portable bidets" that are basically just a squeeze bottle.










Of course a real bidet like LincTex mentioned would be completely sustainable if a bit cold:eyebulge:


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## LincTex

This is the ticket:


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## Reighven

Excellent answers!! Thanks all! 



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## headhunter

As a much much younger man, there were times when I appreciated the basswood leaves. As a more "marure" person 4-6 of those 1/2 sized paper towels work for many things- from easy fire starting to the grand children's faces to---. A small pack of wet ones is not overly heavy and makes one smile at their foresight.
Grandma has been "stocking up" on toilet paper. Run out? Heck, I think I'll be forced to look at the camper right quick - if I want to sleep horizontal!


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## goshengirl

Here I'm thinking lamb's ears (the plant) and others are thinking bidets.... I'm so uncreative.


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## kyhoti

An update to the kitty litter: now that we've had sone rain and warm weather, I took a spade and busted open the oldest end of the trench. The clay has persisted in much the same state but the poo is much reduced. No worms in the trench, but lots of beetles and centipedes. The trench had not sunk near as much as I thought it would, but it stayed closed. I'm guessing that by fall, the biome will have consumed all the contents minus the clay. Since this is Georgia, we're slap full of clay in the dirt anyway, so the flower seed I'm fixing to sprinkle over the trench should do just fine.


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## rugster

This is a "waste" of time 

The average adult will produce 2-4 pounds of feces and 4-6 cups of urine a day. A family of 4 that's around 480 pounds of brown stuff and 45 gallons of urine a month

The simple solution is going to be digging a hole in the ground. The best solution seems to be composting and turning it into soil amendment. IMO I think the real problem will be in urban areas were people are not accustomed to dealing without modern sanitation. lets say you live on a street with 20 homes occupied by 65 people that's 7,800 pounds of feces and 731 gallons of urine a month. If this isn't addressed properly and it won't disease will be an issue.

Also, Ash from the fireplace is effective at killing the odor Human waste not sure it's been mentioned?

http://shaunsbackyard.com/191/human-waste-composting/


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## notyermomma

Not quite as simple, but very frugal ...

"[The Aztecs] did not prepare elaborate terracing as was done in the Andes; they were not soil-makers, except in the expedient of the chinampas. *They had no fertilizer other than their own feces,* where the Incas had bird guano and llama offal."

If it can power an empire, think about what it can do for your backyard garden! Human sacrifice optional, except in case of drought.


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## Caribou

I know entire communities that use honey buckets (a five gallon bucket with a plastic bag liner). Some knock down the odor with lysol or other methods mentioned here. 

The fancy ones put the honey bucket in a cabinet with a toilet seat attached and an appropriate size hole cut in the top. A two or three inch vent pipe runs from the cabinet through the roof to vent the odor. Some port-a-potty designs incorporate this method.

These honey buckets are dumped into a sewage lagoon. Twice a year the sewage lagoons are pumped into the river. The uppermost village starts the process. The flow rate of the river is known so as the up river sewage reaches each village they start pumping. 

These are well known dates so everyone stocks up on water from the river before this. After enough time has passed for the river to clean itself the villages go back to the river for drinking water. Tens of thousands of people live with this system today.


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## cowboyhermit

Caribou said:


> Tens of thousands of people live with this system today.


Glad I'm not one of them I have flushed enough tanks and containers to know how difficult it is to get a smooth non-porous surface "clean", let alone a muddy river bed.

Good info though.


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## Ridgerunner

You can also use Ashes from a fire to put in a out house to adsorb the smell.


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## Mnrdnck

Gas masks can really be a plus when it comes time to dispose off it. I have done that at the RV dumping station and seen more good old boy out there with with just respirators on the good ones not the cheap dust masks.:shtf2:eep:


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## cowboyhermit

Mnrdnck said:


> Gas masks can really be a plus when it comes time to dispose off it. I have done that at the RV dumping station and seen more good old boy out there with with just respirators on the good ones not the cheap dust masks.:shtf2:eep:


For all the options except the "sawdust toilet" I would agree, all those chemicals and materials that are supposed to prevent odours just seem to make it smell worse imo. A properly used sawdust (or straw, etc.) toilet should not smell bad, honestly, not exactly roses but if an rv tank is a 10 then a sawdust toilet is a 2, ime.


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## kyhoti

Over our most recent camping trip, we used our lugable loo a good bit, but only for pee. The four of us using the loo put out a gallon of pee overnight. Thats ALOT of liquid to take care of if we had to SIP. I need to come up with a better solution. Perhaps a PVC pipe to the outside with a valve?


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## oldasrocks

Why on God's earth would you pee in a bottle and carry it?

When SIP comes around just use a Foley cath, fill balloons and built a slingshot for them and out a window they go. snicker. The same slingshot or catapult for poo too.


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## nightwing

kyhoti said:


> Over our most recent camping trip, we used our lugable loo a good bit, but only for pee. The four of us using the loo put out a gallon of pee overnight. Thats ALOT of liquid to take care of if we had to SIP. I need to come up with a better solution. Perhaps a PVC pipe to the outside with a valve?


urine and poop have a natural element that when they dry they produce 
potassium nitrate uric acid and some others that can be used to make 
black powder and tan hides treat metal (Brown BESS) was browned with urine wire brushed and redone until it was uniform and resisted rusting 
this is a old form of cold bluing

human manure is also a good fertilizer but only after a couple of years 
so let it dry and decay and it can be used in a garden quick Lyme will only make it better smelling and is also good for garden soil

waste not want not.
During the civil war the hunt for caves with old deposits of bat guano 
OLD bat caves were a source of potassium nitrate That little white 
dust on top of crap it can be collected and dried and condensed 
there are books and pamphlets on this.

it is also what keeps smoked and salted meats color and prevents 
spoilage look up the contents of Prague powders and preserving 
salts like pink salt and commercial sausage making salts

there are numerous uses and I would tell you a secret but then I would have to kill ya'


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## crabapple

LincTex said:


> Yep... just search the web for *effluent aeration system drainfield*
> 
> also search *"drainfield rehabilitation"*
> 
> http://www.septicairaid.com/drainfieldproblem.html
> Effective Septic Aeration Pays for Itself in Pumping Costs
> It is widely recommended that septic tanks be pumped every two to five years. However, recent studies indicate that adding a septic aerator to a well functioning tank, may result in only having to pump it every 10 to 12 years. Septic tanks without aeration break down approximately 60 to 70 percent of the solids. Whereas, adding effective septic aeration breaks down 90 to 98 percent of solids and at a much faster rate.
> 
> http://wexcoenviro.com/water-solutions-services-products/treatment-products/mbd/municipal-products/
> Extend the life of your septic system with MBD aeration
> MBD-micro-bubbles
> All conventional septic systems have a finite useful life even when used as designed. Regular wear and tear as the system ages will compromise optimal function. Natural clogging by the byproducts of treating sewage eventually causes biological failure of the drainfield or mound.
> Micro Bubble Diffusion (MBD) can be used to preserve new or help recover existing drainfields and mounds by reducing the waste strength that causes them to fail.
> 
> http://www.nesc.wvu.edu/pdf/WW/publications/pipline/PL_WI05.pdf


Thanks for the tips.
Sounds like you know how to control all the shit in your life.


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## headhunter

We had no problems for the first 25 years with our ss (probably put in with the building of a portion of the house in '58) All of a sudden the ground started to sink-the settling tank was large but had a iron lid that rusted through. A couple of years down the road we re-examined the system when those wet ones they claimed were septic tank safe weren't.

An older neighbor claimed that many systems fail because years ago people used natural fibers for clothes and with all the synthetics presently in use when a wash machine discharges those ployesters fibers don't break down like the cotton and wool did and, hence, eventually plug the drain field.


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## Gians

*poo bump*

If it's only a temporary lack of water and you don't have the bucket system or a yard to use, you can empty the remaining water out of your toilet(use it elsewhere) and line it with a plastic bag. Seal up the bags and keep them in a heavy duty construction type bag for later disposal. Got this idea out of one of the free e-books, seemed like a good idea for apartment dwellers or people who are bucket challenged.


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## Riverdale

We have used the humanure system for 3 years. The urine is mixed with water and used to 'water' our bus plants.

2 adults and 2 kids and our first 48"x48" compost bin is less than half full.....


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## Lakotagirl

*Impromptu commodes*



OldCootHillbilly said:


> Seeins how ya ain't gonna flush it, ya can use paper towel sted a the tp.
> 
> Ya can sprinkle a bit a bakin soda in there ifin ya like, but the lime should keep the worst a the smell down.
> 
> Try ta bury it when ya get rid a it, but keep it away from any sources a ground water.
> 
> Oh yeah, 13 gallon trash bags work perty well in a 5 gallon bucket.
> 
> We bought a porta loo, 5 gallon bucket with a toilet ring on it. Hey, it was on sale cheaper then just the bucket!


 Hillbilly, we bought one of these too, after I had found a folding one with a seat at Academy Sporting Goods. We took the folding one with us to Renaissance faires a couple of times, just in case of no restrooms. Then, just about a month ago, I found a real chair with a small bucket under it, and a seat and lid, and arms. The woman there said she had bought it for her husband after he had surgery, but he had never used it. So now we have 3 cheap porta potties, lol. I figured out the small bucket inside the chair can be replaced with a 5-gallon bucket. I guess we can just put something like that in our bathrooms if we have to, and have a hole or holes dug to dump it into and bury. Thanks for the ideas of baking soda or lime.


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## MaynardDuncan

Two years ago, while excavating at an undeveloped BOL, if nature made that call, I went to an out of the way part of the lot and made my deposit there, using TP. If I had to go back within a few days, I noticed there was hardly any solid waste remaining, excepting the TP. Scavengers made pretty quick work of it, and no treatment was required. Full disclosure, it was summer, so the exposed material dried quickly. Would this be impractical in the city, depending on your lot size?


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## cowboyhermit

MaynardDuncan said:


> Two years ago, while excavating at an undeveloped BOL, if nature made that call, I went to an out of the way part of the lot and made my deposit there, using TP. If I had to go back within a few days, I noticed there was hardly any solid waste remaining, excepting the TP. Scavengers made pretty quick work of it, and no treatment was required. Full disclosure, it was summer, so the exposed material dried quickly. Would this be impractical in the city, depending on your lot size?


One person in the middle of the woods, walking FAR away from their living area will probably be okay. There is a considerable risk of disease and parasites in a situation like this though. Animals become contaminated and spread that contamination around, even just by walking through the area. Then, just by walking through this area you could be contaminated yourself. Even things like flies are a contamination vector, they land on THAT, then they land on you or something you touch.

Healthy people with no disease or parasites have relatively benign feces but there is always a risk.


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## OldCootHillbilly

Learn ta properly dispose a waste. Ifin ya don't cholera can break out an that be real bad news.


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## OldCootHillbilly

Lakotagirl said:


> Hillbilly, we bought one of these too, after I had found a folding one with a seat at Academy Sporting Goods. We took the folding one with us to Renaissance faires a couple of times, just in case of no restrooms. Then, just about a month ago, I found a real chair with a small bucket under it, and a seat and lid, and arms. The woman there said she had bought it for her husband after he had surgery, but he had never used it. So now we have 3 cheap porta potties, lol. I figured out the small bucket inside the chair can be replaced with a 5-gallon bucket. I guess we can just put something like that in our bathrooms if we have to, and have a hole or holes dug to dump it into and bury. Thanks for the ideas of baking soda or lime.


Them potty chairs be nice. Before indoor plumbin some the rich folk had very well decorated wood potty chairs, ya would never know what it were for lessin ya lifted the lid. Servants took care a them on a regular basis.

We have limited space ta work with (were gettin alota supplies built up) so the bucket works well fer us cause I stuffed it full a tp to! I can see how the chair would be nice ta have though. An come ta thin a it, ya could store tp under an on it too.


----------



## cowboyhermit

OldCootHillbilly said:


> Learn ta properly dispose a waste. Ifin ya don't cholera can break out an that be real bad news.


Not to nitpick, because I absolutely agree with the sentiment, but you can only get cholera from someone who is already infected (through their feces or other means), or from a couple other animals that can carry it. The same goes for most common sanitation diseases and parasites. Still, without proper sanitation you are at risk of getting some sort of dysentery at the very least.



OldCootHillbilly said:


> Them potty chairs be nice. Before indoor plumbin some the rich folk had very well decorated wood potty chairs, ya would never know what it were for lessin ya lifted the lid. Servants took care a them on a regular basis.
> 
> We have limited space ta work with (were gettin alota supplies built up) so the bucket works well fer us cause I stuffed it full a tp to! I can see how the chair would be nice ta have though. An come ta thin a it, ya could store tp under an on it too.


The pails with seats do work well, not as nice as a properly made enclosure but especially with sawdust or some other absorbent organic cover material they are really not bad to use. Certainly not as bad as your typical construction site or festival porta-potty


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## OldCootHillbilly

No sense in takin chances, here be some info on it:

The following article was taken directly from Wikipedia (original link is found here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholera) but has been parsed for readability. Something to consider when
planning for your water needs before, during and after a pandemic.
Cholera
Cholera, sometimes known as Asiatic cholera or epidemic cholera, is an infectious gastroenteritis caused by
the bacterium Vibrio cholerae. Transmission to humans occurs through ingesting contaminated water or food.
The major reservoir for cholera was long assumed to be humans themselves, but considerable evidence
exists that aquatic environments can serve as reservoirs of the bacteria.
In its most severe forms, cholera is one of the most rapidly fatal illnesses known, and a healthy person may
become hypotensive within an hour of the onset of symptoms; infected patients may die within three hours if
treatment is not provided. In a common scenario, the disease progresses from the first liquid stool to shock in
4 to 12 hours, with death following in 18 hours to several days without oral rehydration therapy.
The diarrhea associated with cholera is acute and so severe that, unless oral rehydration therapy is started
promptly, the diarrhea may within hours result in severe dehydration (a medical emergency), or even death.
According to novelist Susan Sontag, cholera was more feared than some other deadly diseases because it
dehumanized the victim. Diarrhea and dehydration were so severe the victim could literally shrink into a
wizened caricature of his or her former self before death. Other symptoms include rapid dehydration, rapid
pulse, dry skin, tiredness, abdominal cramps, nausea, and vomiting.
Traditionally, cholera was widespread throughout third world countries, however more recently outbreaks
have occurred in more rural parts of England and the United States' mid-west region. Water and electrolyte
replacement are essential treatments for cholera, as dehydration and electrolyte depletion occur rapidly.
Prompt use of oral rehydration therapy is highly effective, safe, uncomplicated, and inexpensive. The use of
intravenous rehydration may be absolutely necessary in severe cases, under some conditions.
Persons infected with cholera have massive diarrhoea. This highly-liquid diarrhoea is loaded with bacteria that
can spread to infect water used by other people. Cholera is transmitted from person to person through
ingestion of water contaminated with the cholera bacterium, usually from feces or other effluent. The source
of the contamination is typically other cholera patients when their untreated diarrhoea discharge is allowed to
get into waterways or into groundwater or drinking water supply. Any infected water and any foods washed in
the water, as well as shellfish living in the affected waterway, can cause an infection. Cholera is rarely spread
directly from person to person.
Prevention
Although cholera can be life-threatening, prevention of the disease is straightforward if proper sanitation
practices are followed. In the first world, due to advanced water treatment and sanitation systems, cholera is
no longer a major health threat. The last major outbreak of cholera in the United States occurred in 1911.
Travelers should be aware of how the disease is transmitted and what can be done to prevent it. Good
sanitation practices, if instituted in time, are usually sufficient to stop an epidemic. There are several points
along the transmission path at which the spread may be halted:
* Sterilization: Proper disposal and treatment of the germ infected fecal waste (and all clothing and bedding
that come in contact with it) produced by cholera victims is of primary importance. All materials (such as
clothing and bedding) that come in contact with cholera patients should be sterilized in hot water using
chlorine bleach if possible. Hands that touch cholera patients or their clothing and bedding should be
thoroughly cleaned and sterilized.
* Sewage: Treatment of general sewage before it enters the waterways or underground water supplies
prevents undiagnosed patients from spreading the disease.
* Sources: Warnings about cholera contamination posted around contaminated water sources with directions
on how to decontaminate the water.
* Water purification: All water used for drinking, washing, or cooking should be sterilized by boiling or
chlorination in any area where cholera may be present. Boiling, filtering, and chlorination of water kill the
bacteria produced by cholera patients and prevent infections from spreading. Water filtration, chlorination, and
boiling are by far the most effective means of halting transmission. Cloth filters, though very basic, have
significantly reduced the occurrence of cholera when used in poor villages in Bangladesh that rely on
untreated surface water. Public health education and appropriate sanitation practices can help prevent
transmission.
A vaccine is available in some countries (not the U.S.), but this prophylactic is not currently recommended for
routine use by the CDC. The newer vaccine (brand name: Dukoral), an orally administered inactivated whole
cell vaccine, appears to provide somewhat better immunity and have fewer adverse effects than the
previously available vaccine.
Origin and spread
Cholera was originally endemic to the Indian subcontinent, with the Ganges River likely serving as a
contamination reservoir. The disease spread by trade routes (land and sea) to Russia, then to Western
Europe, and from Europe to North America. Cholera is now no longer considered a pressing health threat in
Europe and North America due to filtering and chlorination of water supplies, but affects heavily populations in
developing countries.
* 1816-1826 - First cholera pandemic: Previously restricted, the pandemic began in Bengal, and then spread
across India by 1820. The cholera outbreak extended as far as China and the Caspian Sea before receding.
* 1829-1851 - Second cholera pandemic reached Europe, London and Paris in 1832. In London, the disease
claimed 6,536 victims; in Paris, 20,000 succumbed (out of a population of 650,000) with about 100,000
deaths in all of France. The epidemic reached Russia, Quebec, Ontario and New York in the same year and
the Pacific coast of North America by 1834.
* 1849 - Second major outbreak in Paris. In London, it was the worst outbreak in the city's history, claiming
14,137 lives, over twice as many as the 1832 outbreak. In 1849 cholera claimed 5,308 lives in the port city of
Liverpool, England, and 1,834 in Hull, England. An outbreak in North America took the life of former U.S.
President James K. Polk. Cholera spread throughout the Mississippi river system killing over 4,500 in St.
Louis and over 3,000 in New Orleans as well as thousands in New York. In 1849 cholera was spread along
the California and Oregon trail as hundreds died on their way to the California Gold Rush, Utah and Oregon.
* 1852-1860 - Third cholera pandemic mainly affected Russia, with over a million deaths. In 1853-4, London's
epidemic claimed 10,738 lives.
* 1854 - Outbreak of cholera in Chicago took the lives of 5.5% of the population (about 3,500 people). The
Soho outbreak in London ended after removal of the handle of the Broad Street pump by a committee
instigated to action by John Snow.
* 1863-1875 - Fourth cholera pandemic spread mostly in Europe and Africa.
* 1866 - Outbreak in North America. In London, a localized epidemic in the East End claimed 5,596 lives just
as London was completing its major sewage and water treatment systems--the East End was not quite
complete. William Farr, using the work of John Snow et al. as to contaminated drinking water being the likely
source of the disease, was able to relatively quickly identify the East London Water Company as the source of
the contaminated water. Quick action prevented further deaths. Also a minor outbreak at Ystalyfera in South
Wales. Caused by the local water works using contaminated canal water, it was mainly its workers and their
families who suffered. Only 119 died.
* 1881-1896 - Fifth cholera pandemic ; The 1892 outbreak in Hamburg, Germany was the only major
European outbreak; about 8,600 people died in Hamburg. Although generally held responsible for the
virulence of the epidemic, the city government went largely unchanged. This was the last serious European
cholera outbreak.
* 1899-1923 - Sixth cholera pandemic had little effect in Europe because of advances in public health, but
major Russian cities were particularly hard hit by cholera deaths.
* 1961-1970s - Seventh cholera pandemic began in Indonesia, called El Tor after the strain, and reached
Bangladesh in 1963, India in 1964, and the USSR in 1966. From North Africa it spread into Italy by 1973. In
the late 1970s, there were small outbreaks in Japan and in the South Pacific. There were also many reports
of a cholera outbreak near Baku in 1972, but information about it was suppressed in the USSR.
* January 1991 to September 1994 - Outbreak in South America, apparently initiated when a ship discharged
ballast water. Beginning in Peru there were 1.04 million identified cases and almost 10,000 deaths. The
causative agent was an O1, El Tor strain, with small differences from the seventh pandemic strain. In 1992 a
new strain appeared in Asia, a non-O1, nonagglutinable vibrio (NAG) named O139 Bengal. It was first
identified in Tamil Nadu, India and for a while displaced El Tor in southern Asia before decreasing in
prevalence from 1995 to around 10% of all cases. It is considered to be an intermediate between El Tor and
the classic strain and occurs in a new serogroup. There is evidence of the emergence of wide-spectrum
resistance to drugs such as trimethoprim, sulfamethoxazole and streptomycin.

An one more:

It is a documented fact that more people die after a disaster due to poor sanitation than from the disaster itself. This is due to individuals not knowing where or how to properly expel waste. Fly infestations also pose a problem, and if waste is left out in the open, then it will only lead to the susceptibility of epidemics such as cholera, typhoid or diphtheria. The survivors of the earthquake that occurred in Haiti last year are dealing with this very problem.
Thousands Have Died From the Haitian Cholera Epidemic
The Haitian earthquake survivors are not only reconstructing their city and their homes, but are dealing with a cholera epidemic due to unsanitary conditions after the earthquake occurred. Lightning fast and virulent, it spread through every Haitian state, erupting into the world's largest cholera epidemic despite a huge international mobilization still dealing with the effects of the Jan. 12, 2010, earthquake.(Source). After it was all said and done, the cholera epidemic killed more than 7,050 Haitians and sickened more than 531,000, or 5 percent of the population.
In fact, news sources have reported this epidemic outbreak to be the worst they have seen in 20 years. This epidemic broke out due to people being uneducated on how to properly dispose of waste. In all honesty, most everyone is uneducated on this subject, because our town's and city's waste management teams do the job for us. But if an emergency arises and the water and sewage systems are corrupted, then your waste becomes your responsibility.
In an article regarding this subject, emergency preparedness author, Kellene Bishop of Preparedness Pro has this to say, "If you don't take emergency sanitation seriously, then the consequences can be extremely dire - even up a 50 mile radius. Preventing waste from contaminating the soil is just as important as preventing the spread of any other disease as it contaminates crops, water, and air. Additionally, as water will be scarce in a time of emergency, ensuring that it does not get contaminated with improper sanitation habits is critical.
Diseases such as cholera , are contracted through contaminated water and food, and often as a result of poor hygiene and sanitation practices. It causes acute diarrhea and vomiting. If left untreated, it can quickly lead to serious dehydration and death. Women and children are usually the most effected, and become dehydrated more quickly. In fact, UNICEF reports that "poor hygiene, and unsafe drinking water claim the lives of 1.5 million children under the age of five every year."
Add a Sanitation Kit to Disaster Supplies
Having a sanitation kit that is ready in times of disaster is essential to keeping your family and neighbors healthy. These kits can fit comfortably into a bucket, are affordable, and will not take up much space. Additionally, being educated on how to properly dispose of waste is a key factor in keeping everyone healthy during a disaster.
Some suggested sanitation supplies to add to any short or long term emergency kits are:
	Disposable bucket or luggable loo
	Toilet paper
	Rubber gloves
	Garbage bags with twist ties ( for liners of toilets or luggable loo)
	Bathroom cleaner
	Cat Litter or absorbent material such as saw dust or dirt
	Baby wipe
	Baking soda can be used to help eliminate odors
	Vinegar
	Shovel
Disposal of Waste
Properly disposing of waste products keeps water sources clean and cuts down on illness and disease. If city water is still available, flush conservatively. Grey water such as used dish water, bath water or water for cooking can be used to flush the toilet. If water lines are damaged, or if damage is suspected, do not flush the toilet.
In a short term emergency situation
If water services are interrupted, an easy way to utilize the toilet and keep it clean is to:
	Clean and empty the water of the toilet bowl out.
	Line the bowl with a heavy-duty plastic bag.
	Once the bag has waste inside, add a small amount of deodorant such as cat litter, as well as disinfectant and securely tie the bag for disposal.
	A large plastic trash can (lined with a heavy duty bag) can be used to store the bags of waste.
	Once trash services begin, the city will come and collect these.
If a portable camp toilet is used, the above mentioned can also be used. However, if the trash crews are not coming in a given amount of time, the bag of waste will need to be buried (see the proper way to bury waste below).
Officials say to avoid burying your waste, but sometimes it is necessary. However, if waste is not properly taken care of, pollution of water sources will lead to illness and disease. It also attracts flies and insects which will spread the disease further. Understand that burying feces takes up to a year to decompose. Therefore, finding the right spot to bury your feces is crucial. There are biodegradable bags that a person can put their waste into. These can usually be found in the camping department of outdoor stores, or on the Internet. The bags assist the waste in decomposing faster and assists in preventing the waste from hitting major water sources. If a person does not have one of these handy bags available, the feces should be buried in "catholes" far away from water sources, campsites and communal spot where there are a lot of humans.
According to Leave No Trace, there are some considerations when choosing a site to bury waste.
	Select a cathole site far from water sources, 200 feet (approximately 70 adult paces) is the recommended range.
	Select an inconspicuous site untraveled by people. Examples of cathole sites include thick undergrowth, near downed timber, or on gentle hillsides.
	If camping with a group or if camping in the same place for more than one night, disperse the catholes over a wide area; don't go to the same place twice.
	Try to find a site with deep organic soil. This organic material contains organisms which will help decompose the feces. (organic soil is usually dark and rich in color.) Refer to the jars used to demonstrate decomposition. The desert does not have as much organic soil as a forested area.
	If possible, locate our cathole where it will receive maximum sunlight. The heat from the sun will aid the decomposition.
	Choose an elevated site where water would not normally runoff during rain storms. The idea here is to keep the feces out of water. Overtime, the decomposing feces will percolate into the soil before reaching water sources.
Disposal of Feminine Napkins
It is important to properly dispose of sanitary napkins, as they contain bodily fluid that could pose a health hazard to others. Methods of disposal may differ according to where you are are and what you have available. However, tampons and feminine napkins do not decompose quickly. Therefore, the best way to dispose of used feminine napkins tampons is to burn them. The fire must be very hot in order to thoroughly destroy the used items.
In a long term emergency situation
Sanitation in a long term disaster will require the same type of sanitation supplies in a short term disaster, however, a more permanent stucture needs to be in place for long term use. Below is a video of an example of a long term latrine. In fact, this is a compostable latrine. One that can be made for any household and utilized in such a way that can be beneficial to the environment.

In Summation
Sanitation is a dirty subject that no one really wants to talk about. But it is an often overlooked aspect of emergency preparedness. When a disaster creates a situation where the water sources are compromised, the lack of sanitation in the given disaster area will be a disaster in itself. A 50 mile radius of individuals could be affected by illness and disease. Prepare appropriately for this aspect of disasters in order to prevent the spread of communicable diseases.
Additional Reading:
WHO Handout on Emergency Sanitation
National Terror Alert Information on Sanitiation in an Emergency
Emergency Sanitation Manual - e-book


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## headhunter

As far a jus' lettin' her dry. I've read that at times in Mexico City the air is "rich" in dried excrement from the slums that has dried an' become airborne with the wind.
Some friends began outfitting for deer and elk. At the start, they advised clients to cover it with a rock as they had previously done. After a couple of years they saw that too many rocks had surprises under them. Clients were then told to make sure business was taken care of before they left for the field. Lesson- it doesn't take too many people in a few weeks per year to make a mess.


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## Rusty58

We had a similar problem camping with a group at one primary camp site for several years! Remembering what we did in my scouting days, I decided to dig a slit trench and even set up a shower privy while I was at it. This made for a much cleaner and comfortable camping experience!


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## IceFire

I carry an "entrenching" tool (basically a small folding shovel) with my gear. That way, if I need to "take care of business" while out in the woods, I can just dig a small "cathole", and then cover things back up.


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