# Harsh or realistic perspectives?



## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

I, along some I assume some others, through life experiences and observations adopted some views which might appear harsh and cynical, but are actually good guidelines to understanding and avoiding destructive behaviors and situations for me. I life and survivalism I strongly believe in individual responsibility, and that many problems experienced in life by others are easily avoided, and many threats to others are simple things to avoid if one simply thinks things through and responds appropriately.

Some might disagree, but these work for me:

*1. No good deed goes unpunished.*

I'm sure some have seen this time after time, you gou out of your way to help someone truly in need, often a person seeking help, and it blows back on you in some way. Perhaps a continuation and extension of that help is sought, or the person complains about what was received. There are times when you extend a hand and know that this is going to cause a problem down the road. Great example: When a church group opens up their doors to the homeless and church members find themselves harassed and the neighbors suffer thefts and damage! We still do things to help strangers, but expect problems.

In very bad case scenario Survivalism, if we give out food to any strangers and word gets out, you're going to be swarmed, so _no good deed goes unpunished._

*2. She picked him. (or He picked her.)*

Half of the population is of one gender and half is of the other. There are many reasons people pick their spouses. That's their business, but when something goes wrong, the 'victim' expects sympathy and assistance. For example, everyone warned Sue about Ken being controlling, and there were warning signs for abuse, but she didn't listen to anyone and now look what happened. Or Rick knew he picked up Kim in a bar, had sex with her in the men's bathroom that first night, and he thought she'd be a faithful wife? An extreme example here, a woman brings home a man she meets in church that she knows was released from prison for a sex offense so he can have a place to live and so she can have someone. He rapes and kills her daughter, a popular high school cheerleader. The mother blames others, but She picked _him_.

For preparedness: Be careful who you let into your group and be wary of their boyfriends or girlfriends. Some folks will bring horrifically bad choices into their lives and everyone else's and others will also pay a price for their poor life choices. Male or female shack up causes big problems, and your friend or relative complains about the piece of trash they hooked up with. Well, _she picked him_. Or _He picked her_.

*3. Where's the surprise?*

I believe that many outcomes are highly predictable, as in the She picked him/He picked her situation, or when people do stupid things and the inevitable occurs. So when making a decision and you know that if you choose to go somewhere or with someone and something bad is like to happen and others will say Where's the Surprise? You don't do it! One of the harsh examples: Quite a while ago a lovely, sweet petite young woman goes to Africa and then out into the bush alone, with lots of expensive camera gear to pursue her dream of photographing the animals. She's raped, robbed, and killed by the game wardens who can't believe what landed in their lap and weren't going to let the opportunity pass by. Flash cash when hanging with trash, and you're likely to have problems. Where's the surprise?

For survivalism, an example would be those people who live in the flood plains where it's been flooded year after year, after year...and they get flooded and act all shocked and perplexed for the cameras. _Where's the surprise? _

*4. Not my people!*

This one is less direct. Every now and then something horrific happens, some guy gets trampled by human debris who don't care about him but want their bargains. A person is injured and others walk past her on the street and no one pays attention except for the guy who steals her purse. The media pundits what to claim that this is representative of humanity.

BullSh*t! Not my people. That didn't happen around me or people like me. We help, we're not like that. I don't accept that all of humanity is like that and I want to be as far away from human debris like that. This isn't about race or demographics, it's about places where the people of any race and/or social economic group belong to a repugnant culture that is very different from that of decent people. Talking to a guy who was in Mississippi in an area trashed by Katrina, I asked him if they'd a lot of looting there. "Not my people." The population there was largely black with some whites, mostly poor, but unlike New Orleans, his community had few looters and a whole lot of pulling together, so this isn't about race, need or economics, it's about what the people are like.

In my preps, I ensure that I'm not living in areas where people are like that and that means avoiding known places, here's one famous example:

Murder of Kitty Genovese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even though there's a price to be paid for helping, how hard is it to pick up the phone. As we get older, and if you're aware, you see things and either react or don't react. These people who listened to the long duration attacks of not just one but of two women and didn't even get on the phone I can proudly say are 'not my people!'

This is a short list, what it means to me is we bear an indvidual responsibility for what happens to us to a great extent. We've got to be careful about asking our motivations on helping folks and why they need that help because you might merely be facilitating more behavior that created the problem. You need to choose spouses and significant others carefully. You should think about things and if it's very possible that something might go wrong, and it's not a surprise if it does, don't do it! And don't live around human debris.


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## sinbad (Oct 27, 2009)

I mostly agree with you but have to be reluctant on No.1 

We do help even when we know of the coming punishment ( %&^$%&$%) 
Life sucks.

However, I agree and try to educate my kids of the limits of helping others. Sometimes they listen and sometimes they don't. One example was when a girl called my daughter asking for specific book. I have always told them to be sure : either we have another copy, or we can buy another copy for freinds, or copy the few pages in need. Daughter thinks daddy is imposing "harsh" rules. She lends the book. And the other girl instead of returning it with thanks tells others and LENDS it to another girl, and it disapears. 

Oh, yea I was mad like anything when I was asked later : Dad, I need that book for a coming test.. it was only then she told me how it was lost. But being the dad that I am, I couln't blast her when she was having a test coming, and had to run and find another one. 

I reluctantly agree with you on No.1
People laugh at you for your preps or wisdom, and then come back like pests (sorry to say) and bug you for the same thing they have laughed at you for. 

As a "corrective measure" on my side, I have scaled down the preps "on me" and followed a system of chaching stuff around, so I don't lie when I say ( I am not carrying this or that ), which is TRUE, but it may be stored in a locker a few meters away.

I think that a rule like number one should not be misunderstood for a "harsh" attitude. We can use it to set a realistic strategy that accomodates our brain wisdom and hearts feelings. So, if someone needs help I must assume that my helping money, time, or effort may be lost in thin air, or worse be rewarded negatively. 

So, ask yourself about the possibilities. And all us preppers should be experienced in anlayzing (what if) scenarios. IF the helpless victim does not return that $50 next week, are you OK with that ?? See how you can live with such consequences. IF you can, very well. Keep on helping folks . If you can't handle, tolerate, or ignore the negative waves coming at you, it is better to listen to the computer within your skull. 

In our area, we have a very sobering story. One gentleman served in charities and social establishments for 20 years. his time and money were dedicated for the community to - perhaps - a level that was frustrating to his own family. Three months ago, he particpated in a meeting with a controversial character. His participation was seen as a huge mistake , and he was blasted to smitherene in many local forums. 

He was shocked by the attacks so much , he realized what he did all these years was blown aways by one "mistake" ( if it was indeed a mistrake) . So disappointed he was, he resigned from all his social activities and decided to isolate him self at home.

He was a good guy. 
No, he was a GREAT guy. 
But he wasn't aware of your rule no. 1 


Thanks SurviveNthrive


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## PopPop (Sep 14, 2010)

No surprises here. We live in a society of entitlement and victomhood. We do not hold people responsible, we accept murder, rape, theivery. We do not respect private property. We have allowed the least of us to set the standards for our society and made a mockery of justice. If you have it and I need it or just want it, I will take it and probably get a bunch of politicians to pass a law to make it OK.


Example: If someone goes to Med school and spends the 10 to 15 years and incredible amount of money to become a doctor, our society believes that we can demand that doctors knowledge and services as a personal right. We as a society have embraced the concept that everyone has a right to housing, regardless of their ability to pay for it. and we also believe that a person has a right to food regardless of their willingness to work for it. These 3 things supported by Federal laws and regulations have established the entitlement rights of those who could but will not. This philosophy has replaced the only true rights of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Any society that makes this bargain is doomed to consume itself, hence the situations you have cited and the decline of the USA.


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

If you loan a friend $50 and you never see them again, do you think that was the best $50 you ever spent?


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## SaskBound (Feb 13, 2010)

SurviveNthrive said:


> *2. She picked him. (or He picked her.)*
> 
> Half of the population is of one gender and half is of the other. There are many reasons people pick their spouses. That's their business, but when something goes wrong, the 'victim' expects sympathy and assistance.


So, you've never made a mistake? Never been surprised by the actions of another person who you thought you knew well? And that "not MY people" thing - how well do you know each and every one of your neighbors? How, exactly, are you picking "MY people"?

While I agree that people are not all nice, that we can't save everybody (nor should we, necessarily), that we need to prepare for bad things happening (including an appropriate stash of weapons and ammo), should have basic situational awareness and not be overly trusting, etc - BUT I really get sick of the *self-righteous attitude*. And saying that no good deed goes unpunished is basically an excuse to be selfish. Exercising some basic situational awareness / good judgement is generally sufficient in 'normal' times. I actually agree with some of the underlying thoughts / premises, but the arrogance in this post really turns me off.


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## Emerald (Jun 14, 2010)

SaskBound said:


> So, you've never made a mistake? Never been surprised by the actions of another person who you thought you knew well? And that "not MY people" thing - how well do you know each and every one of your neighbors? How, exactly, are you picking "MY people"?
> 
> While I agree that people are not all nice, that we can't save everybody (nor should we, necessarily), that we need to prepare for bad things happening (including an appropriate stash of weapons and ammo), should have basic situational awareness and not be overly trusting, etc - BUT I really get sick of the *self-righteous attitude*. And saying that no good deed goes unpunished is basically an excuse to be selfish. Exercising some basic situational awareness / good judgment is generally sufficient in 'normal' times. I actually agree with some of the underlying thoughts / premises, but the arrogance in this post really turns me off.


:congrat:Great Post! :2thumb:


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## tortminder (Oct 15, 2008)

SaskBound said:


> So, you've never made a mistake? Never been surprised by the actions of another person who you thought you knew well? And that "not MY people" thing - how well do you know each and every one of your neighbors? How, exactly, are you picking "MY people"?
> 
> While I agree that people are not all nice, that we can't save everybody (nor should we, necessarily), that we need to prepare for bad things happening (including an appropriate stash of weapons and ammo), should have basic situational awareness and not be overly trusting, etc - BUT I really get sick of the *self-righteous attitude*. And saying that no good deed goes unpunished is basically an excuse to be selfish. Exercising some basic situational awareness / good judgement is generally sufficient in 'normal' times. I actually agree with some of the underlying thoughts / premises, but the arrogance in this post really turns me off.


I sometimes find SurviveNThrive a bit "blunt", but I generally find that he/she is at least honest in postings.

A few specific responses to this exchange from my point of view;

1. *"No good deed goes unpunished".* 
Obviously "some" good deeds are not punished, but as the OP points out, we live in a victim/entitlement society, (mostly found in the larger urban areas... small town and country folk still have courtesy and manners for the most part). Perhaps the OP, (as I have personally experienced), has found that more often than not the 'good deed" leads not to a positive conclusion, but, in the very least, a sense of "this wasn't enough" by the recipient(s). Your mileage may vary.

2. *"He/She chose him/her"/"So, you've never made a mistake".* 
In my experience, most of the time when I have "made a mistake" regarding expectations of others, it was not a mistake but an occasion of wishful thinking. The OP gave some pretty good examples of making bad choices and expecting good results. 
Can folks surprise you? Yup, that's why con artists are successful. But I would remind you of the title, (and the premise), of an old W.C. Fields short movie; "You can't cheat an honest man". Cons work because there is a bit of larceny in human nature. Not a harsh judgment, just an honest observation of human nature.

3. *"My people". *
Stereotyping and prejudice have been given a bad name by the "P.C." crowd, but stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason... and we all operate with prejudices or predispositions every day of our lives.

There is an old saying; "birds of a feather flock together", or, if you are of a more religious bent: _"For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes." (Luke 6:44)._

Most "preppers" have become alert to that small quiet voice, (some call it conscience... some call it the "survival instinct"), that whispers in your ear; "This guy ain't right", or "There's something 'off-center' going on around here".

In "real life" it ain't rocket science to figure out who you are comfortable with and who causes your B.S. detector to itch.

4. *"saying 'no good deed goes unpunished is an excuse for selfishness... the arrogance in this post really turns me off'"*.

Self-preservation, (or selfishness, if you prefer), is the underlying engine that drives us to be preppers. You cannot preserve your loved ones if through making bad choices you are no longer alive. Your preparing for the coming food scarcity will have no value if through making poor decisions your cache has been taken from you. Stupid *should* hurt...*badly*.

Darwin called it "Natural selection", most of us call it survival of the fittest. Whatever you call it, Forrest Gump's momma had it right: *"Stupid is as stupid does."*

Regarding the responders perception of "arrogance" on the part of the OP, I can only share that sometimes the style of the OP feels "prickly" to me and upon further inspection find that it is because I see a less that acceptable trait that "I" need to work on in my own personality.

SurviveNThrive will probably never have a future in the diplomatic corps, but he/she bluntly tells it like it is. It may be uncomfortable to see it on the board, (you cannot convey the subtle nuances of communication we come to expect in face-to-face communication on line), but although I don't always agree with everything the OP writes, I always learn something... sometimes about the subject being discussed... and sometimes about myself.
*
A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself; but the simple pass on, and are punished.
--Proverbs 27:12*


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## Tirediron (Jul 12, 2010)

There is a lot of truth to most of the "rules" 
For the most part every person needs to learn to accept responsibility for what happens, sometimes it is really hard,but in the end it is the only way to take the lesson and move on.
Helping the (to use Blob's term) gibs me dat people seems to only enable the gibs me dat mind set.
Balance is the key to existance , if you can achieve the "be", not the"be good" or the "be bad" things will prolly work out 
I spent a lot of my early life being a "resque ranger" always trying to help people out, and thru emperical data learned that rule No. 1 applies more often than not. 
Selfless acts on the other hand seem to work out well. helping a stranger on the road, opening a door , just generally being nice.
(People don't really expect me to be nice from my appearance, I kind of look like a "stereotype biker" I wear a full beard, muscular build, "beer"gut (thanks in part to food intolerances over the years )no tats.

People do put them selves in dangerous places and don't watch their surroundings

I would expect that most on this forum if they were to stand back and honestly look at themselves have acheived a close proximity to the "be" state.
In the "be" one can make decisions about what is best for them and theirs, in a SHTF situation that maybe the use of deadly force on those who would cross the "line" 

The fluffy namby pamby world that socialists like to make up is usually just a way to gain control.

:gaah:


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

Overall, what SNT wrote is an astute assessment of behavior. I've had all of those things happen in my life. The first one with neighbors and friends, and I do get tired of helping when asked, then when they get their problems sorted out, somehow I'm to blame. 

The human element comes in, for some of us, especially when it's family members or loved ones. I have a daughter who made a dumb choice in a boyfriend. The more we tried to talk to her about him, the more she shut us out. Finally I just told her if she ever needed me, I'd come. And when it was clear to me that he was about to break it off with her, I suggested she start letting me pick upsome of her things, stuff she didn't need on a daily basis. She agreed it was ending but said "Oh, he'd always let me back in to get my stuff". 

You guessed it. We had to fight to get her stuff, we had to call the police, and she never got some of it back, some of which was sentimental from her childhood.

She knew THEN that I had been right. She was hurting enough as it was. What would I have gained by telling her how stupid she was? Or that "I told you so". She already knew it. Did I eliminate her from my life? No. She's my daughter, for better or worse.

Sometimes we make "informed" choices and later find out people or things aren't quite what we thought. I have many regrets. Some came about by jumping into things but some came about through no fault of my own. 

There are some who prefer to focus on the mistakes people have made or anything negative, and don't give credit for the good. I never write someone off over a few dumb choices or personality quirks. I may not involve myself much with them. But none of us are perfect and at some point we may need them.

But I'd definitely be careful about allowing them into your inner circle. Never be too sure you know anyone thoroughly. People wil surprise you. Especially in a time like post-SHTF. We know there will be violence and fear, but it may come from those you thought you trusted.


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

I'm a straight shooter. We don't need to waste our time on platitudes that are deceptive and don't have any merit while preparing. This is about one perspective, one that works for me, and one that works for others who can accept the world as it is.

Let's see...

_So, you've never made a mistake? Never been surprised by the actions of another person who you thought you knew well?_

This is in regards to 'she picked him' or 'he picked her'. No, I most certainly didn't make any of the huge mistakes I am talking about. This is about choices and responsibility. If a person picks a bad person to be with, that's no one else's responsibility, it's that person's poor choice. Because I considered relationships serious I limited mistakes, missed out on some fun but realized some people aren't wise choices as spouses.

I have is when someone who hooks up with someone who everyone else saw as either abusive or cheating is 'surprised' by that person when every sign was there, family and friends warned that person and everything but a neon sign flashing over the person's head saying 'abuser' or 'cheater' is there as a warning.

Surprised by the actions of another person I knew well, and was close enough to be in a relationship with? Heck no! This is the most important decision a person makes when they're young, and it's going to affect their own future, possible children, family, reputation, and honor so it's a heavy decision. It's not a matter of just having sex with a person if a person is cautious. Morality doesn't even have to enter into it. As a young man, I looked for a wife, not someone to screw. My female relatives looked for husbands and got married to decent, non abusive, hard working guys. I married a wonderful woman who is still a wonderful woman. I didn't 'hook up' with a few equally incredible women because I saw potential problems beyond the incredible fun.

For those who claim to be negatively surprised? What was the criteria for selection of a spouse before jumping into the sack and opening one's life to that person?

I betcha they weren't all that detailed or thought out and you picked him!

Once a person realizes they got themselves into the situation and DOES blame themselves, instead of accepting 'it's not your fault', then they can become empowered and actually rule their own lives.

_And that "not MY people" thing - how well do you know each and every one of your neighbors? How, exactly, are you picking "MY people"?_

My people are the ones like me who work, don't commit crimes, take care of their children and relatives, have values. Yes, those are who I associate with. When someone isn't like that, I stay away from them. This comes down to social-cultural issues. In someone related wants to be a bad boy, he better understand what it is to be a lone wolf, because you don't disgrace the family. My children saw that with both sides, if criminals aren't supported and facilitated, and there's a notion of 'honor' on one side and 'honor' and 'face' on the other, guess what? It works well. Those families that back thugs, rapists, gang bangers, and such are often dismayed and perplexed on how several of their children turn out so bad, when they've been so 'supportive'. There's a difference between support and facilitation.

No, thugs in the street are not my people. They're not part of my society, I am proud to say I'm not like that. Anyone who can't say that, is one of those I gladly avoid in my personal life. If a person can't look at a group of scum and say 'not my people' then, well, you just might be one of them and if you can't distinguish those who aren't worth being around from those who are, you're definitely among those who are 'not my people.'

_While I agree that people are not all nice, that we can't save everybody (nor should we, necessarily), that we need to prepare for bad things happening (including an appropriate stash of weapons and ammo), should have basic situational awareness and not be overly trusting, etc - BUT I really get sick of the self-righteous attitude._

It's self righteous not to be a criminal and not associate with them?

That's a really, really warped view. 'sick' of the self-righteous attitude of someone who commits no crimes, does no harm and makes careful decisions, but accepting and forgiving of unnecessary 'mistakes'?

Self righteous or realistic? I'm not a criminal. I don't associate with them. Heaven forbid if a friend or a family member becomes a loathesome criminal, then he is going to be kicked to the curb.

_And saying that no good deed goes unpunished is basically an excuse to be selfish._

Hardly, I mention that we still do things anyway, even if we know it's going to blow back on us. I've still 'rescued' the abused woman who rushed back to her abuser. I'll still do other things, provide food for the food bank and have people there complain because they want Campbells soup instead of store brand, when that's what I'm eating. Why in the world would that person posting see that concept as an excuse? Is that the way she or he operates?

_Exercising some basic situational awareness / good judgement is generally sufficient in 'normal' times. I actually agree with some of the underlying thoughts / premises, but the arrogance in this post really turns me off. _

Confidence in one's beliefs and operating on them isn't arrogance, except to a person without the same level of certainty.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

SNT, just wondering...do you have kids?


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## PopPop (Sep 14, 2010)

I think I know where SNT is coming from. I also eliminate as much of the destructive side from my life. I am carefull about my associations and I do not think this makes me haughty. I just refuse to enable desructive behavior. In my own family I have witnessed almost all of the sins. I forgive as I wish to be forgiven, but I do not ignore or enable. I agree that we as asociety do not recognize the weight of our decisions. Marriage and Divorce being a good example. People marry for sex and then destroy a family for new or better sex. Families are destroyed for money, by drugs and alchohol and gambeling. All of these things are the result of a society that does not value the family. I do not accept the new definitions of family, they cannot be relied upon to produce generations of success. As for the good deeds, doing the right thing will always be the right thing to do. Charity that is pure and not coerced is always good. Charity will not always be rewarded and the reward should not be the goal. Forgiveness has little value for the transgressor, yet delivers peace to offended. Love will have you reach out a hand of help, that might often be slapped but will eventually save a valuable human being. These foundations of our American society have been weakened by many things. As a prepper, we prep for our family and one other. We do not know who that family is but when the time comes they will be right there. Its is just how we are. We have been bitten, HARD but we just go on and try harder the next time. I gues I just think that we all be better off if we rediscover that which is good inside each of us and cultivate and propigate that good. If we allow the tradional family to die the republic will perish. If we allow Charity to die the entitlement will replace it. And when we stop doing the right thing just because it is the right thing to do, Well then we have become them


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## pdx210 (Jan 8, 2010)

The_Blob said:


> If you loan a friend $50 and you never see them again, do you think that was the best $50 you ever spent?


Thats not just money well spent its an investment in your own future!

I agree with SNT

Speaking of that, This is time of year when i hear the endless news reports about the poor people at the mall that take their packages to their car throw them in the back seat and go back in to shop only to come back out and find someone has done a smash and grab and taken their goodies that where left out in plain sight.


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## Preparedoffgrid62 (Nov 26, 2010)

*Harsh or realist*

Harsh realists die of old age. Eat good during hard times and pull the trigger when they should..not bleed all over cause they didn't. Don't lend money give it to worthy causes. I'm often accused of being a hard hearted old man.How else do we survive in this world over 60 years..not by being a soft touch nor stupid.
Buried a lot of the those. I don't know how many times I have offered good parental advice to be ignored and then later on told gee dad shoulda listened to you..you were right..I won't repeat what my reply was  Cause you see I am a hard hearted old unrepeatable..if that's what situations call for.
The hardest test any man can face is "do I shoot this dog or not"..and in just about that long..he got bullet holes in himself..it's a get tough or die world..while still retaining ones humanity.
During times of anarchy nice guys finish dead sooner than later. We call our selves civilized human beings..might be true of me or thee, not all of us.
Knowing the difference instinctively is a skill that comes with age and experience.. either listen to the old boys who know or go kill yourself some where else..not bringing that on me or mine. It's true as God.. the thoughtlessness of youth cannot survive the treachery of old age..thats exactly what kills thousands of beautiful young beings every day. Unrealistic ideals and foolishness.
I just wonder who is really arrogant and pompous here. Same silly attitudes of the bleating lawn grass eaters. I used to brag about not raising any fools. but their mother sure by Dad did ! :2thumb:
My world was not your world. I'm native American, from Canada, a place not known as a wild wild western culture..got news..is so..at 13 two red necks tried to murder me and my brother and mother..being a military brat is just one other factor that made a difference..I didn't wait to get shot I shot back and being a crack shooter from hours at the rifle range every day..those two losers were lucky I was hunting chickens not moose..had I had my 303 that day the bullets I was directing at the middle of their foreheads would have arrived there..my 22 shorts didn't..so one got a bullet hole in his upper left groin and the other got a bullet hole in his right butt cheek.. their car was bearing several more bullet holes..and I did not hear or see them or have any problems what so ever from it. I know if I had not shot back they would have killed us for sport. Welcome to red neck Alberta.,50 years here has been a real education about just how sick some people can be, and hateful. Thats what makes the difference in survival or war..not gettin shot thinkin about what to do..think about it after you done it..
We here to learn how to get shot or learn how to survive while not endangering everyone else being foolishly idealistic in a war zone. Rather straight talkers and straight shooters at my back than some bumbling panty waists. We're ready. Born ready. :beercheer:


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## wildone_uk (Aug 9, 2010)

my motto is no one and nothing comes befor the safety and security of my family and i, 
i am with surviveNthrive on this,inevitably when you do a good turn for someone it comes around to bite in the ass,and butt is so sore


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## kyfarmer (Feb 22, 2009)

Family first and no i will not hand out peroid. To many neede and not enough, fact feed one and have a 1,000 at your door. You want to do that to your family, be my guest not me. They have had as much warning as anybody else has. Another prepper stuck in between ok, maybe but a system would have to be set up to know who you were.


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## lotsoflead (Jul 25, 2010)

The_Blob said:


> If you loan a friend $50 and you never see them again, do you think that was the best $50 you ever spent?


NO. I think it's $50. they had better pay me and then never see me again.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

Preparedoffgrid62 said:


> Harsh realists die of old age.


Brings to mind a picture of scrooge, alone, surrounded by his money/treasure/preps.

I'll do what I can to have preps, take care of and protect our family, and be careful who I trust.

But in the end, if the world was so harsh that there was no quality of life; if all we knew was fear and our existence centered around that fear and protecing our "stuff", why would I care if I survived?

My preps aren't all about me. They're a legacy for my kids and grandkids. They are what makes surviving worth worrying about. Dying at an old age is only one of the possibilities.

Prepping aside, I've always felt I'd rather be out there living life to the fullest and doing the things I want to do, than to be home, huddled in my house, scared I'd get lost in the backcountry backpacking, killed on one of my cross-country bicycle trips, or any other 'silly' notion of danger in today's world.

How many of you are out there living even in today's world, let alone the more dangerous and violent world that could come?


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## SaskBound (Feb 13, 2010)

gypsysue said:


> Brings to mind a picture of scrooge, alone, surrounded by his money/treasure/preps.
> 
> I'll do what I can to have preps, take care of and protect our family, and be careful who I trust.
> 
> ...


I am with you, GS. It is easy to get paranoid and caught up in all sorts of perceived 'danger', but when I actually get 'out there' and live in the world, I find that, for the most part, people are kind, and not out to get you. For the most part, people want the same sorts of things - enough to eat, a better future for their kids, that sort of thing.

Being open to the possibility that not everyone is out to get you is NOT THE SAME as being a 'pantywaist' or pushover. You can be cautious and self-assured without being unfriendly of downright mean. There is a saying about being kind to everyone you meet, but having a plan to kill them first. I like that sentiment. It allows for self-defense if necessary, but positive interactions if it isn't.

I also think that good people can still run into hard times, or make mistakes. While I'm not out running around announcing all my preps, or handing out money for no-account acquaintances to go buy more drugs and booze (I don't have those sorts of acquaintances, thanks), I have been known to send bags of groceries to a colleague of my husband who has been laid off and has little ones to feed. I have been known to send a bus ticket to a sibling who was having a hard time of things and just needed to spend a bit of time with family. Or paid the deductible on someone's insurance when they got in a car wreck and couldn't pay it themselves, but needed the car for work. A hand up is not the same as enabling. Thing is, I never expected to be paid back, and I never expected fawning gratitude, either. Hasn't bit me in the ass yet. In fact, some of those people have gone on to help me out in very unexpected (and incredibly appreciated) ways, years later.

Again, I do actually agree with the majority of SNT's ideas, but really get turned off by the way they're presented sometimes. In the end it doesn't make much difference to me, but I'd hate to see folks who are new to prepping / survivalism get turned off and leave because they are repeatedly told they have to be cold and tough and heartless to be a 'real' prepper.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

SaskBound said:


> I am with you, GS. It is easy to get paranoid and caught up in all sorts of perceived 'danger', but when I actually get 'out there' and live in the world, I find that, for the most part, people are kind, and not out to get you. For the most part, people want the same sorts of things - enough to eat, a better future for their kids, that sort of thing.
> 
> Being open to the possibility that not everyone is out to get you is NOT THE SAME as being a 'pantywaist' or pushover. You can be cautious and self-assured without being unfriendly of downright mean. There is a saying about being kind to everyone you meet, but having a plan to kill them first. I like that sentiment. It allows for self-defense if necessary, but positive interactions if it isn't.
> 
> ...


You summed it all up nicely.


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## Clarice (Aug 19, 2010)

I have always abided by the rule if you do not intentionally put yourself in harms way you have a slim chance of being harmed. We keep a low profile. We do a lot of charity work in our area, but no one knows the gifts came from us. I believe in helping anyone who is doing all they can to provide for themselves and their family but are still coming up short at times. We never help anyone expecting something out of it for ourselves. I have paid others utility bills who otherwise would loose power, water or trash service. I pay in cash and never say anything about it. The quite gifts from the heart are the best. When the balloon goes up we hope to continue this attitude, but don't come around thinking you are going to take our preps,we are well armed.


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

_Again, I do actually agree with the majority of SNT's ideas, but really get turned off by the way they're presented sometimes. In the end it doesn't make much difference to me, but I'd hate to see folks who are new to prepping / survivalism get turned off and leave because they are repeatedly told they have to be cold and tough and heartless to be a 'real' prepper. _

If they're going to get turned off and fold just because some believe that one person is direct about the fact things will get rough, and there's a lot of bad folks out there, then, well, they ain't exactly going to make it anyway because it can get dirty, harsh and a person needs to have some sand. What would such a person contribute to serious discussion? Survival is about facing potential starvation, dehydration, hypothermia, drowning, and animal attack, survivalism includes all that and includes civil unrest, natural and man made hazards, and dealing with potential violence.

I want to share and receive information with folks who have seen things and are willing to think them through, realizing that prepping for a harsh possibility might ease a bad reality. I want to communicate with the sort of stand up, stalwart folks who have ideas on how to make it through rough times, because they will have WORTHWHILE measures, based on realistic concerns that are difficult to deal with. For those like me who don't know enough, I want us to be able to learn from those who know about the scary things which might be prevented.

*I don't need information on how to make it through easy times and deal with friendly people, but I won't interfere with such posts, why would folks like that want block us from discussing things which might save our lives simply because they don't want to deal with the threat?*

If someone truly believes the world is so hunky dory, go ahead, post your real name and home address and list some of your best preps. I don't, and I won't. The fact that those who WRITE 'it's not bad' won't reveal their true view, they believe that by presenting a view that the world is a nice place, and crisis won't be bad, it somehow means they're nice people and that's utter pap. If they do, they need a lot of help!

People generally getting along, because we have the rule of law and there's something fascinating...even normally good but aggressive folks will change if they see someone act timid and vulberable, because we do have the predator instinct, although suppressed as it's not needed right now. On the other side of it, stand up folks are the ones we'll be relying upon to protect others.

LTC Grossman talks about there being wolves, sheepdogs and sheep. The sheep dogs protect the sheep, and condemn the wolves, but the sheep condemn the sheep dogs and protect the wolves. This is some of what we are seeing here.

Not too many months ago, a tall, ragged piece of human debris was doing what is called 'aggressive panhandling' which is physical contact away from 'strong arming' at the 7/11. He set his sights on a lovely, nicely dressed woman with a Joint Base Lewis-McCord sticker marked luxury SUV, the spouse of some Airforce or Army Officer. I wasn't on the clock as I was coming home but I interceded. That's heartless and harsh? Do ya think she'd rather have had someone like me step in there or a kumbaya singer? What do you think that animal is going to be like if there's no Rule of Law? "I think most people are kind..." is meaningless drivel...we're not prepping to defend against the nice ones.

*I believe that some adopt this 'soft' attitude so that they don't have do what's right, and they claim things aren't bad for the same reasons that mothers who allow their children t get abused do, because they're worried only about themselves.*

You'll see this with gun control. Some don't want others to be able to defend themselves, because they realize that if it's possible to do so, and they don't, they'rve failed their duty to their families and selves.

No, I don't believe in being nice to everyone but having a plan to kill everyone you meet. That's a tee shirt slogan. I've no plan or intention to kill nice folks, children, and poeple who mean me no harm, but the same token, I'm not going to be nice to everyone, I'll be honest and direct and some like aggressive panhandlers won't see me as nice, just very direct.

*The world might become a very bad place, what can we do?

Now that's the stuff we really need to be exchanging information on!*


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

What can we do?

I'll start with somethings...given a SHTF situation that's long-term:

1. We can't assume that every stranger we meet in crisis is a liar, but we can assume need. Need is a dangerous motivator. We don't need to lie, especially if we're not liars, because we'd be easily detected. We can control what we say, and don't volunteer information. "I ain't a liar, I just ain't telling nothing I don't feel like saying, one way or the other."

2. Learn the use of personal space, and how to maintain it. Don't worry about being rude, ask a person to back off, if they're offended or won't, that's your biggest warning sign that's a threat! This is why being too sensitive to offending people is a huge vulnerability. You can signal this with a hand raised, and you can maintain it by keeping distance, a vehicle, a fence, a door, a closed window between you. Personal space isn't only a little bit to give you a chance to react, it's an incredible indicator and dividing line. Predators will want to enter _your_ personal space.

That's a good start...


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## Preparedoffgrid62 (Nov 26, 2010)

Oh geez.stupid me..I thought this was about survival in extreme situations of social collapse and magnified black Friday rabid shoppers behavior on steroids.? 
I sure never did say that anyone here was a panty waist..that identification belongs to the offense takers and nit pickers who pop up in every discussion to offer their own neurotic appraisals of things pulled out of exceptional magic hats and beat up any one who tweaks their inner being..their own neurotic make up ..revealed by their never fails proclivities to go out their way to take personal offense..ok..Psych 101 is another thread I think..public behaviors in another..neither of which I need any coaching on..
people find me a very generous and gentle being..until my toes get stepped on by those who seem unable to keep their big feet off of other peoples shoes.,
Now I am talking to you gypsysue..you jump to some pretty far out assumptions to justify your arrogant misuse of this thread to lord it over others focused on serious matters of life or death situations..not the Sunday Social crowd.
We, my neighbors and friends have a tight group of bush whackers and hunters and x military people determined to survive..for the same reasons you might want to start thinking about..rather than high jack the discussion for your own self aggrandizing contemptuous hostilities. You are being perceived as a trouble maker. Anyone ends up alone or worse will be you if you treat your defenders that way for sure.. they may shoot you themselves  weak links and loose lips sink ships..you never argue with the driller..:0) so be as uppity as you please it's still a free country and free speech is precious even if it is menopausal manure.
Hoity toity..pay attention. Get off your high horse. Now you can unload on me in apoplexy all you like. Shouldn't take offense where none is offered.
Hypothetical discussions of value to serious people not trolls. Senior member..omg..been terrorizing these folks long have you ?  The lash of thy tongue is severe in it's outreach..don't choke on it's length.  Don't put words in my mouth or distort my meanings..I say what I mean and mean what I say. 
Now I'm outta here better things to do than waste time on this popularity contest.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

Preparedoffgrid62: Of course I'm not going to apologize, nor am I upset by what you wrote. You have valid points, as did I. We're all as different as there are numbers of people, and we all have the same goal: To survive whatever may happen.

How we prepare for that and what our opinions are for handling situations are each of our own business. I repsect your plans, thoughts, and ideas, same as I do SNT's. I don't like some of his attitude but I like him as a person and have become friends with him separate from this forum. I don't even share the same opinions and plans for prepping and post-SHTF with my husband, MMM, on all matters, but we respect each other. 

We, too, have a great neighborhood of preppers. We live up a private gravel road 4 miles long with two forks, neighbors 1/4 to 1/2 mile apart, know everyone, and they're all into prepping to where we've actually met and planned neighborhood defense for the "what ifs" and how to manage some community efforts regarding procuring food.

I'm pleased to hear that you're one of them who also has neighbors and friends you trust and can work with! That's sure a great thing to have. I don't feel "lorded over" my fellow preppers for having that. I wish they all did too, and I'm glad they can get on here and share ideas and get information to give them the best chance for whatever happens.

You, also, need to not judge other's opinions and not distort ideas and comments. Share yours but don't criticize others. If someone says they don't like your idea or don't think it would work for them, take it at face value. It may not be an attack on your personal value.


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

*NOT REFERRING TO ANYONE HERE!*

What I do find interesting is the fact that people are often so adament about pacifism they become violent, and that they are so sure that the threat of violence is so overstated that they become angry and combative!


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## truecarnage (Apr 25, 2010)

Wow! Trampled feelings, free speech overload and the kids are starting to act mean towards each other. Ladies and gentlemen this is a cyber community and just like in a real community we should act friendly and civil towards each other even if we don't agree with the other guys doing or saying, I'm not going to preach, but we should all really try to get along with each other and respect the other person's views and opinions just a little better than that.:beercheer:


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

truecarnage said:


> Wow! Trampled feelings, free speech overload and the kids are starting to act mean towards each other. Ladies and gentlemen this is a cyber community and just like in a real community we should act friendly and civil towards each other even if we don't agree with the other guys doing or saying, I'm not going to preach, but we should all really try to get along with each other and respect the other person's views and opinions just a little better than that.:beercheer:


And this is the best post I've read in this entire thread. :beercheer:


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

*Damn! a word fight and I missed it*

But from what I read, I'll put 5 bucks on the lady!!.. when somebody flames and swings then runs away .. that don't say much...

I personally didn't see anything in GS's reply that should cause such a word war..

But I have a question..and please take it at face value.. not as a put down...I really want to know..If i read your comments right, you saved your family from possible harm if not death by shooting two BG's.. you aimed to hit between the eyes, yes shot one in the leg and the other in the hip..????

22 short or not..unless you were 200 yards away I can't say I'd call that good shooting , you did stop an attack, good for you.. but I'm just wondering about the marksmanship issues ...or lack of as it were...

Might work on that a bit.. happy yawl survived tho...


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

Well, hopefully he'll be back. Regardless of his or anyone's opinion, this is a forum to share ideas and learn things, and he's already had a lot to offer. 

I've seen some hoping to have among their group of people after TSHTF, a collective of varying skills and abilities: medical, security/defense, gardeners/farmers, hunters, fishermen, etc. I know that it will be a violent and scary world in the event of a long-term situation, and even though I could pull the trigger to defend my family/supplies, I'm hoping I'm not the one that has to. I'm a good marksman, and I've shot both small game and large game animals, so I have pulled the trigger on living creatures. I know, that's not the same as shooting a person. But have no doubt of this, if my family is threatened or in danger, I CAN do it. 

But I'm hoping that among the many veterans in our family and the others they will train, that I can stick with my own jobs in the food growing and preservation department and not have to be on the front line. 

And more than that...I hope such a situation never happens that warrants any of us having to do so. 

Hoping the worst doesn't happen, isn't denial that it could happen.


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## 41south (Dec 4, 2010)

I am not chiming in on the disagreements just the original thread. 

I may sound harsh, but on some boards I have read posts about what to do for entertainment if TSHTF. These folks have never lived with wood or coal heat and cooking, especially haven't given a thought to cutting wood with a crosscut saw, no chainsaw. They have never had to boil water over a fire to scald hogs at killing time, hog killing is hard nasty work, it takes a whole family working together with a couple of old timers running the show, to not ruin the meat or set the hair on the hides, with too much heat, or not enough. 

They haven't gone underground in old UNSAFE coal mines and push a small cart in and out, and lay on their sides with a pick undercutting the mud seam, with a old timer propping the top of the coal to hold it from crushing them, and screaming at them when to roll to the center of the room, cause the top is taking so much weight the coal is about to burst out all over them and bury them. Think of doing this and NOT have a truck to haul it home on.

They haven't worked in hay fields all day throwing hay bales on trailers and then throwing them UP in the barn, and worked on a worn out old baler constantly just to keep it baling. They haven't worked all day hoeing a garden in 95 degree heat with 100% humidity. Think of doing these things without a tractor, and no tiller in the garden.

If TSHTF we will be so busy working from daylight till dark thirty, we won't need entertainment. There are reasons people used to not get in so much mean crap and didn't live long. They were worn out from trying to survive.


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## beericus (Apr 6, 2010)

The OP seems like a student of Ayn Rand to me. :congrat:


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

beericus said:


> The OP seems like a student of Ayn Rand to me. :congrat:


She had many good ideas, and her stand on self-responsibility would be a good one to have catch on in today's society.

Too bad she was wrong about cigarettes not causing cancer, though...


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

This is from the original post, and it's simple lesson learned from life:

1. No good deed goes unpunished.

2. She picked him. (or He picked her.)

3. Where's the surprise?

4. Not my people!


I heard about an example of 1, 3, and 4, all wrapped up together. One of the stores around here offered a free Santa photo to customers, and provided the service within an hour. I heard that a customer comes in like ten minutes and demands the picture. Then she insists that no other customer can be helped until she gets her picture. "You're not helping anyone else until I get my picture!" 

Ever want to see or hear about the worse customers? Offer something for free. KFC experienced riots when they gave away their free piece of roasted chicken.

Definitely not people I hang with, those sorts of people are trash.

But in a survivalist sense, we can be stucjk with anyone unless we make sure we keep our standards.

As for 'she picked him' and 'he picked her', whenever I hear someone complain about their spouse I shrug and say "You picked her/him" to end the conversation, why do people complain about fates they create and went out of their way to secure? I've yet to see a situation where there was a 'surprise' in a relationship unless the disappointed or 'surprised' person was an utter idiot. Someone, a friend, family member, or rival for that person's eventual spouse tried to warn the one duped and the foolish person didn't listen. In such a case like that, it's on him or her.



41 South brought up some good points, although I'm not going to go down into an unsafe mine, too much wood for potential firewood or even charcoal around here, but he's right. This ain't no camping trip, and we'll not have much liesure time overall, if you're relaxing, there's something that should be getting done.


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

I'm sorry but we folks of the 21st century ain't stupid , and while our kin folk from times past had it really rough times have changed.. I have never had to dig for coal like the poster above but I also never would, I can think of many better ways to get the job done, ways and things not thought of by my granpa in his days..

I don't care if there is a nuke war.. not all will die, not all knowledge will be lost.. we may not be tougher then our forefathers but we are as a rule more knowledgeable then they were..

I can think of many ways to survive without having to dig for coal on my back in a death trap... I understand where the poster was coming from, but we all get so lost in the "End of it All" that we forget what we do know... how many thousands of years passed before the water wheel was invented? or even the wheel.. or the Bow and arrow.. chipping a blade from a rock... 

Does anybody think this stuff will be lost forever?.. something once learned is usually not lost.. there are thousands of folks out there that can't hit a running deer at a mile away... but can rewind an electric motor, or move water up hill.. knowledge don't just live in some Rambo steroid induced muscle bound body... hell give me a room full of geeks any day over a pack of road warrior wanna be's ..

Surviving is about working at it.. surviving is about growing food, being warm.... being safe..mankind did it for thousands of years before the first ship powered by wind.. or the bow and arrow.. are we so stupid we can't make it?.. surviving a SHTF ain't about rebuilding the internet.. or even having elect lights... no ipods..not TV.. just work.. but today we have the knowledge of how to make it easier then our great grand parents.. those who think survival is having that ipod will die..those interested in planting and working from first light to last will make it.. and as they make it they will keep bringing back more of the things we now "NEED" but don't really.. and that's fine,if your not digging a garden by hand and working your fingers to the bone then you have time to worry about iPods...


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

Well, I didn't want to slam that post, but there's somethings to what Hooz is writing.

No, as I wrote, I'm too bright to do those things 41South mentioned.

But I do agree with Hooz, there are some stupid people in the 21st Century.

Here's example:

_They haven't worked in hay fields all day throwing hay bales on trailers and then throwing them UP in the barn, and worked on a worn out old baler constantly just to keep it baling. They haven't worked all day hoeing a garden in 95 degree heat with 100% humidity. Think of doing these things without a tractor, and no tiller in the garden_.

Why would I be stupid enough to choose to live in a place with 95 degree heat and 100% humidity?

There are lots of places where I'd not live and that's definitely good enough reason not to be there.

Each Summer I've watched folks in another place on the news, complaining about the incredible heat and humidity where they live, suffering terribly "each year it's like this, can't sleep" well, you silly person, there are other places to live.

As for the notion of slipping into an abandoned mine, to get coal well, to me that's just not something I'd do.

The one hog farmer I know trades off meat and money for having a professional butcher his pigs.

I'd not set to bailing if I didn't have a functional bailer. Seems silly to do so. Did I waste my repair money on other things?

Maybe we just think quite a bit differently in my area then they do there.

Part of my perspective:

I just watched Harlan County USA again last night, about the coal miner strike in the early to mid 1970's and I was utterly amazed. Those folks go on and on about how hard the life of a coal miner is, about black lung, about being exploited by the coal company, the dangers, the unsafe equipment, the explosions, and cave ins, about how little they get paid per whatever, and how it's always been that way, etc. One popular fella out on the picket line is shot and killed, _leaving behind his sixteen year old wife and five month old son_, and his mother is going on about how proud she is he got shot as a Union Man, the same union that allows them to be exploited in unsafe working conditions and that just had some in fighting murder of a reformer a few years earlier.

*What is wrong with them?*

If it's so bad, you leave...you don't whine about it every day and keep singing hard luck songs until you cough out yourself from black lung...these are very hard working people who wallow in self pity. I met a lot of former coal miners or the sons of coal miners in the Army and had a favorable impression. They were hard working folks, but smart enough to get out.


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## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

41south said:


> I am not chiming in on the disagreements just the original thread.
> 
> I may sound harsh, but on some boards I have read posts about what to do for entertainment if TSHTF. These folks have never lived with wood or coal heat and cooking, especially haven't given a thought to cutting wood with a crosscut saw, no chainsaw. They have never had to boil water over a fire to scald hogs at killing time, hog killing is hard nasty work, it takes a whole family working together with a couple of old timers running the show, to not ruin the meat or set the hair on the hides, with too much heat, or not enough.
> 
> ...


Touche, 41South..and just a little note here...if Child Services today saw us running around those vats with boiling lard???? WTH would they think???

Of course, in those days, Daddy would have set them off on their way with help from the brothers and even some sisters (who were always close by in the kitchen geting the sausage ready).


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## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

beericus said:


> The OP seems like a student of Ayn Rand to me. :congrat:


Hey, don't knock Ayn Rand..she published Atlas Shrugged and obviously saw what was coming for this country, huh?

By the way, where is our John Galt??


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## 41south (Dec 4, 2010)

My point was and is, it's absolutely silly for people to think they will need entertainment, without all the modern items that are powered by fuel that may be unavailable.

And they don't know how to live without these things. And to be called stupid for living where we have hot weather, that was a remark looking for a reaction, that I will not respond to. I don't mind hot weather and don't complain about it. I wouldn't say someone is stupid for living where it's colder than dammit and snow is measured in feet not inches.

And if you think you will bale much hay without working on a baler, you haven't baled any hay. Even now with new equipment balers are troublesome to keep working. And if I was stupid, I couldn't spell baler, not bailer, which is a device used to bail water out of a boat or a well, not used to bale hay.

As for pulling house coal out of old works, just to have a heat source, I haven't done that since I was a kid, but I can and would if I had to have coal to keep my family warm. My point was transportation with no fuel.

As I noted in my post, try cutting wood with a crosscut saw, I never have. But was taught how to use one when I was young. Wood is plentiful here as well, but if fuel for a chainsaw is not available, hard work is required to cut it.

Today you can trade money and meat to a slaughterhouse for their services, but without fuel for transportation to one and electricity to run coolers, a modern slaughterhouse would be no more useful than an Ipod. We would have to do it the old ways, which require hard work and knowledge.

And as to Harlan County USA, that movie is forty years old, and was not a true documentary when it was filmed. It was a dramatization of the early 1970s labor problems. No one in my family EVER paid UMWA a dime. And we have to use coal, until a better source of energy is developed, half of our electricity today is generated from coal. And for the record, I haven't worked underground for 22 years, but you better believe I have the utmost respect for the men and women that still do. Oh yeah, modern mining isn't pick and shovel work, it is hard, wet or dusty and dangerous, made more dangerous by the rules that require old works to be sealed and not vented out. Gas seeps from these seals, into the active sections of a mine and then the explosions occur.


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

WOW ... Where to start...

Thanks to the folks who (to feed their family) have gone underground to bring the coal to the top ... and no, we are NOT living in the days of granpa ... that is today. The next time you flip on a light and are on the power grid ... Thank about that.

It is a honest days work and it pays the bills ... I guess you could say ... there are some stupid people in the 21st Century ... guess they could hang it up for a gobbermint check ... You are right ... many of my family members are JUST THAT!!!! JUST PLAIN STUPID!

Second - Why would I be stupid enough to choose to live in a place with 95 degree heat and 100% humidity?

Because as you said, "WE ARE JUST STUPID!" It couldn't be that we are looking after our animals or family ... NO, you are right we are a little off in our mind. 

By the way - I agree with 41south. When did it become a BAD thing to do a honest days work. (I know because we are STUPID!)

I hope you guys have a Merry Christmas ... It's time for me to take a break from the forum ... I need to call my uncles and a few more of my kin ... To tell them they are stupid and not to go into work come the morning... 

:wave:


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

Nothing wrong with coal mining, that's honest, dangerous, and necessary work. What's wrong is with folks HATING their lives and doing it generation after generation. Those coal minors in safer working conditions, making lots of money, (open pit mines, for example) who ain't complaining are smart as heck. the ones depicted in Harlan County, hating a lifestyle and literally fighting to keep it, well, that ain't too bright. One points out that steel mill workers are making much more money, well, go become a steel mill worker.

The guy posted complaints about hoeing all day in 95 degrees and 100% humidity. Why?

I still maintain that someone who especially hates their environment and sits there and complains without taking steps to leave is foolish.


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## 41south (Dec 4, 2010)

I wasnt complaining, I was making the point that the need for entertainment would be silly in hard times. Work would keep us occupied, go back and read my post. 

And baler for hay is spelled baler, bailer for bailing water from a well is spelled bailer. 

All the things that are OK now, would be time consuming and take HARD work with no fuel. That was the point of it, read and comprehend before you start saying someone is stupid.


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

_They haven't gone underground in old UNSAFE coal mines and push a small cart in and out, and lay on their sides with a pick undercutting the mud seam, with a old timer propping the top of the coal to hold it from crushing them, and screaming at them when to roll to the center of the room, cause the top is taking so much weight the coal is about to burst out all over them and bury them. Think of doing this and NOT have a truck to haul it home on._

Uh, no matter how you or anyone spell things, I don't think anyone gains intellectual credibility points by creeping around a played out mine, risking their lives, scratching out a few lumps of coal.

One critical aspect of survivalism is NOT DOING ANYTHING STUPID WHICH INCREASES RISK!

Now I strongly agree with 41South that it's silly to think about what liesure activities one might have in preparedness. The work might be so hard that 'rest' is the only liesure activity we might have.


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## UncleJoe (Jan 11, 2009)

SurviveNthrive said:


> The guy posted complaints about hoeing all day in 95 degrees and 100% humidity. Why?
> 
> I still maintain that someone who especially hates their environment and sits there and complains without taking steps to leave is foolish.


You're not as bright as you would like all us *stupid* people to believe.

What exactly would you do if every farmer decided that it was too hot and humid to go out and run their *baler*. I'll tell you what. You'd starve unless you're one of those people that think they will take what they need by force. Any food you have stored came from a farm. The store where you shop for food wouldn't need to be there if there were no *stupid* farmers toiling in the heat and humidity to keep them supplied.

You sir, are arrogant and egotistical. I've received enough complaints about you to start a book.* IT STOPS TODAY!!! * If you can't reign in your holier-than-thou attitude, you're not welcome here. An infraction has been issued. 
If you would like to continue contributing to the discussions here, you will learn to do it without bashing people because they do things differently than you.


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## JayJay (Nov 23, 2010)

Oh, Uncle JOe...let him be..he's too stupid to realize many of the Ky. farmer's hay balers are more equipped than his vehicle!!!

Let's not get him started on logging...Lord help us...shhhhh...


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

JayJay said:


> Oh, Uncle JOe...let him be..he's too stupid to realize many of the Ky. farmer's hay balers are more equipped than his vehicle!!!
> 
> Let's not get him started on logging...Lord help us...shhhhh...


I wonder if Uncle Joe will maintain consistency. I got nailed for name calling without calling anyone a name...I addressed choices and behaviors, asking for fairness.

BTW: No one manually hoeing a field is feeding the masses, and please, no one should go down in a mine described as unsafe and isn't hay supposed to be baled when there's not 100% humidity because of trapping too much moisture which leads to mildew or mold, right? Just asking about the last part.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

SurviveNthrive said:


> I wonder if Uncle Joe will maintain consistency. I got nailed for name calling without calling anyone a name...I addressed choices and behaviors.
> 
> BTW: No one manually hoeing a field is feeding the masses, and please, no one should go down in a mine described as unsafe.


SNT - you really do need to work on your reading comprehension. Re-read what UJ wrote (I posted it below in case you couldn't find it). Nothing in it about name calling.

_*"You sir, are arrogant and egotistical. I've received enough complaints about you to start a book. IT STOPS TODAY!!! If you can't reign in your holier-than-thou attitude, you're not welcome here. An infraction has been issued. 
If you would like to continue contributing to the discussions here, you will learn to do it without bashing people because they do things differently than you." *_

Maybe if your reading comprehension was improved you wouldn't have so many problems relating to people.


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

mosquitomountainman said:


> SNT - you really do need to work on your reading comprehension. Re-read what UJ wrote (I posted it below in case you couldn't find it). Nothing in it about name calling.
> 
> _*"You sir, are arrogant and egotistical. I've received enough complaints about you to start a book. IT STOPS TODAY!!! If you can't reign in your holier-than-thou attitude, you're not welcome here. An infraction has been issued.
> If you would like to continue contributing to the discussions here, you will learn to do it without bashing people because they do things differently than you." *_
> ...


Misquito, I was referring to a PM, not the direct post following a moderator wading into to take a shot. Not normal decorum.

I'm not going to bash you, even though you certainly rushed into take a shot at me.

But back on topic of the original post:

Some folks will make poor choices driven by a variety of reasons when it comes to behaviors involving decision making. I believe we shouldn't be responsible for everyone else's actions, but by the same token, we need to hold ourselves accountable for choices made in spouses, friendships and other aspects of life. If we do this, we can avoid many problems later on.


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## truecarnage (Apr 25, 2010)

*Andi said:


> WOW ... Where to start...
> 
> Thanks to the folks who (to feed their family) have gone underground to bring the coal to the top ... and no, we are NOT living in the days of granpa ... that is today. The next time you flip on a light and are on the power grid ... Thank about that.
> 
> ...


*hey, come on *Andi I live in South Florida and during the summer it gets really hot and humid. Please don't think me stupid for living down here.:wave:*


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

I'm only referring to those who complain bitterly about their lot, but do nothing about it other than continue to express misery and hate for their place. This is akin to those who experience floods periodically in the same place, get wiped out every so many years, and then are surprised when it happens again and go on the news.

If someone so hates their fate or their weather and it's easily fixed why do they languish in such places and continue to complain in multigenerational levels?:dunno:

I really can't understand that mindset. How is that offensive to point out?

*Instead of being defensive, will someone who really, really hates their fate and where they live, explain to me why they don't simply move away to where they won't be so unhappy?*

If you don't hate your place, the weather, and your fate, and ain't complaining, why would you be offended by what I wrote, I referred to those whining about every aspect of their lives and questioned their reasoning for staying.


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## 41south (Dec 4, 2010)

I wasn't trying to make intelectual points, my point was and is. If TSHTF folks like me, really know what we would be facing as far as work loads are concerned. 

My comment about the hoeing was, imagine doing it all by HAND with no tiller. Same as hauling a little house coal in, with NO FUEL to power a truck. the part of undercutting coal is no big deal, and thats the only way to do it, without machinery and explosives.

Folks like me can get by, even with our skills which would be EXTREMELY valuable in a grid down situation, it would require long hard days just to get by. 

And if you ever had baled hay, you would know what I mean about working on balers. What I meant was it's tough enough with equipment, how about doing the work without equipment.

We may be stupid here, when ice knocks the power out, our town takes it's generators around to homes where folks are in need for health reasons, instead of powering a red light camera, as you well described on another thread. Sounds to me like you are the one that is unhappy with his living conditions, not me. Maybe you should think of moving, nah don't, you might wind up here and we are stupid enough. But we can spell baler and miner. not bailer and minor and we are barely smart enough to know the difference.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

I LOVE being out in hot weather hoeing my garden! I also used to live in SE Kentucky, and there was an old hand-dug coal mine on our property! Many a time my kids and I pushed a wheel barrel over there and I went in and scooped up some of the coal left behind. Most of it was junk coal, but it burned. Didn't let the kids go in, though. 

But since I haven't heard a lot of "woe is me" stuff or people "complain"ing "bitterly" coming from members of this forum about their lives and the work they have to do, I guess we could have more productive subjects on our threads than certain people who are SO satisfied with themselves going on at length about people who hate their fates/lives/work/climate/did I miss anything?

Most of us are happy with the lives we've chosen, the methods of doing things, our plans for prepping.


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

41South, I agreed strongly with your take that some think it's going to be easy once things go down and like you, I figure it's going to be a period of hard work...the hardest we ever had, and having enough time to to rest will become a luxury.

I understand your post, you're viewing how things will be, not that those are means of measuring. My apologies on that, from the way it was written, it appeared you thought those positives, but you meant they'd be ordeals post SHTF!

_We may be stupid here, when ice knocks the power out, our town takes it's generators around to homes where folks are in need for health reasons, instead of powering a red light camera, as you well described on another thread. Sounds to me like you are the one that is unhappy with his living conditions, not me. Maybe you should think of moving, nah don't, you might wind up here and we are stupid enough. But we can spell baler and miner. not bailer and minor and we are barely smart enough to know the difference. _

Typos happen, and sometimes we don't care about them.

Goodness, one minor aspect of life, a red light camera would destroy your impression of a place and you'd move just because of that? Must be nice and easy there if that's a huge impact thing. that's the exact opposite of what I went on about with folks putting up with all sorts of misery, complaining, but not moving on.

Not worried about bailers or balers, that's the concern of folks who do that stuff. However, wouldn't it be a good idea to fix that or any critical piece of equipment before starting crucial work with it?

As for hoeing, in Mexico they often don't work during the hottest part of the day, they believe in siesta. That may or may not work with good work ethic and I might not be bringing in good practices there, but there has to be a point when it's too dang hot to work, right, and in some tropic areas, don't they actually do some work at night?


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

gypsysue said:


> I LOVE being out in hot weather hoeing my garden! I also used to live in SE Kentucky, and there was an old hand-dug coal mine on our property! Many a time my kids and I pushed a wheel barrel over there and I went in and scooped up some of the coal left behind. Most of it was junk coal, but it burned. Didn't let the kids go in, though.
> 
> But since I haven't heard a lot of "woe is me" stuff or people "complain"ing "bitterly" coming from members of this forum about their lives and the work they have to do, I guess we could have more productive subjects on our threads than certain people who are SO satisfied with themselves going on at length about people who hate their fates/lives/work/climate/did I miss anything?
> 
> Most of us are happy with the lives we've chosen, the methods of doing things, our plans for prepping.


Gypsysue is a lady.


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

I personally would not want someone at MY retreat that is so scared of working, sweating, getting dirty, or not having hot enough water to sterilize my dishes post-SHTF. Nor would I want the kind of atmosphere that surrounds this type of person, to taint the hopes of my loved ones and bring such an air of ill-will and criticism. Despite all that "knowledge", I would not consider such a person an asset.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

SurviveNthrive said:


> I really can't understand that mindset. How is that offensive to point out?


You might want to lay off the judgmental attitude. It is offensive. You can disagree without using words like "stupid" or phrases like, "I don't think anyone gains intellectual credibility points..." and "I'm too bright to do those things 41South mentioned."

You might also think about carefully reading what's been written and reply without distorting their views. (Again, work on the reading comprehension.)

And regarding intellectual credibility? You might want to look up the difference between "bailing" and "baling," (and "mosquito" vs. "misquito").

My Dad had a saying he used quite often that applies here. It went something like this, "I'd like to buy him for what he's worth and sell him for what he thinks he's worth."


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

SurviveNthrive said:


> Goodness, one minor aspect of life, a red light camera would destroy your impression of a place and you'd move just because of that?


You're right, that seems more like something YOU would do...judge a place by one thing, then condemn it!

:lolsmash:

I really don't believe you are such a moron (not calling you one, saying you surely can't be) that you think that machinery such as balers won't break down, even when given the best of maintenance! Oooooh, I know this one! Pick me! Pick me! A true prepper would have all the parts on hand they woud EVER need for any and all repairs, and all the fuel they'd ever need to operate it, or ways to make fuel! Yay, did I win?

Oh, wait! Better yet! We'd already HAVE ALL the food and supplies we'd ever hope to need, for the rest of our lives! Otherwise we're *sob* just major fails.... what a "silly notion" to think I could ever amount to anything as a prepper..... *walks away sadly...tear sliding down my cheek*


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

_You might want to look up the difference between "bailing" and "baling," (and "mosquito" vs. "misquito")._

I only worry about typos when they're something that matters to me.

I asked a simple question, but you didn't answer it.

*Instead of being defensive, will someone who really, really hates their fate and where they live, explain to me why they don't simply move away to where they won't be so unhappy?*

There's good and bad to any place, I'm not talking about what we put up with, but rather those who can't stand their fate, complain bitterly about issues specific to that place, but won't leave. I'm not talking about simple grousing for conversation or complaining to find solutions, but that bitter whine like the summer humidity and heat one you hear in some places, combined with felt misery each year while knowing that loved ones are suffering too.

[Great example: Watch Harlan County, USA and see about some interesting labor struggle, some hard working folks caught up in misery, bona fide grievances, but still keeping to it, generation after generation. One has to wonder "Why don't you leave?" if they hate it so much and yes, when young, they can leave.]

I seriously can't understand folks who hate their region, their area, like those who lose relatives and homes to repeated flooding, but stay there. I honestly can't understand that mindset.

If you don't hate your place, the weather, and your fate, and ain't complaining, why would you be offended by what I wrote, I referred to those whining about every aspect of their lives and questioned their reasoning for staying.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

SurviveNthrive said:


> _You might want to look up the difference between "bailing" and "baling," (and "mosquito" vs. "misquito")._
> 
> I only worry about typos when they're something that matters to me.
> 
> ...


Again ... It's how you say things and what you comment about that gets you into trouble. I don't know why you have such a difficult time understanding that.


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

Misquito wrote:

_It's none of your business why they stay or go nor is it your's to judge or condemn those who do._

I believe we're free to wonder about things, it's a wonderful part of our culture. However, as a taxpayer and a consumer, especially when they bring the government and unions into it, it is the business of anyone interested when they seek to express their views beyond themselves to the general public. We should judge and condemn when those choices cost tax money or influence the cost of consumer goods and they ask for outsider to pay attention.

In the case of natural disasters, it's a taxpayer matter again but it goes beyond that. In preparedness it's fascinating because if they're doing that with their site selection, we might for the same reasons be ignoring obvious and apparent threats to ourselves.

No one appears offended when we discuss cause and effect of Haiti situations, but it's odd how we might feel about parts of our own culture.

We can learn about ourselves by learning about how others think.

*If we can learn why people do self-defeating behaviors, well, we can learn more about ourselves and perhaps avoid them.*


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

I doubt you could understand a person staying in a place because of things like family. Some of those people have extended family of several generations in those areas.

If it were so easy for people up root themselves up and move, many might, but it takes money. It takes being able to get housing and jobs when they get there. In times of a better economy that might be a better option than it is right now. 

There are so many reasons a person might stay in an area they complain about. And a lot of these complaints are probably meant to be taken with a grain of salt.

Are you really just wondering why people complain and then keep on in the same situation? Or are you complaining about them complaining?


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

gypsysue said:


> I doubt you could understand a person staying in a place because of things like family. Some of those people have extended family of several generations in those areas.
> 
> If it were so easy for people up root themselves up and move, many might, but it takes money. It takes being able to get housing and jobs when they get there. In times of a better economy that might be a better option than it is right now.
> 
> ...


One of my definite faults is I possess an expectation with communications, that it serves a purpose toward action. Stated another way, when people talk, I expect there's a definitive reason they're talking.

For example, if someone complains, if I'm in a supervisory role, I help look for solutions. If a person complains, and I'm in a personal mode, I help them look for solutions. If someone puts the camera on me for some reason, and I'm complaining, it's because I feel I've a bona fide concern and it requires actions, and I'm making the problem known and informing that I'm working on the problem.

Now if a person is so unhappy that they're complaining about their life and conditions and the complaints seem genuine, I wonder why they aren't working toward a solution.

Yes, admittedly, I am frustrated by some communication from people. I suspect that some grouse to grouse, don't expect solutions, and they somehow draw an odd comfort by whining about their situation, but I have to assume that's not the norm for healthy people. Who wants to be miserable?


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## gypsysue (Mar 27, 2010)

That's almost touching! Really! No sarcasm meant. 

I can't imagine the burden one would have if they felt they had to fix things whenever someone griped about something. 

Most of those people probably aren't as miserable as it sounds. I suspect the ones on the news and in documentaries are built up even more, to be dramatic. 

Let it go, SNT. It's noble of you to want to help, but it's not your problem. It's probably how people cope. I don't think it's related to intelligence, either, because a highly-intelligent and very weatlhy relative of mine whines and worries, so please don't present this as an issue with the silly, stupid, or low-income people. 

In my own life, I keep in mind that thing about "grant me the serenity to change what I can, accept what I can't change, and the wisdom to know the difference". I'm not perfect, so I can't say I follow that all the time, but I do try to remember it.


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

Too true...but like many others, I just feel that when someone is bringing something up, there's a reason beyond mere grousing.

We can make things better and when we're aware of things, we should change it. My problem is I figure others should fix their own fates as well as we fix our own problems, and I do reach a point of believing someone foolish if they keep complaining but don't do anything about it.


Back ground thought: Makes me wonder if all the money, goods, and works I've donated were really needed and whether some folks really want to change their station...to be honest.


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## HozayBuck (Jan 27, 2010)

*As for me*

SNT so far you "AIN'T" contributed much of anything but intellectual bullchit to every post you comment on.. I'm not here to read that crap.. I'm here to hear Bunker Bob explain why crap runs downhill from his bunker when he's under ground... now that would be adding something to the conversation..

I ain't impressed with big words and what some might think is an educated mind...nor by a long "intellectual" dissertation... tell us about how you knapp flint to make an arrowhead.. or a good load for a common rifle round.. or how well you grow your garden..with pictures to back it up..

In other words, stop pissing on my boots and trying to tell me it's raining.. I have yet to learn one damn thing from your posts, I think your a smart dude, in the Marines we used to say about guys like you that they was Long on 
G 2 but damn short on GCT... which means... lots of intelligence and damn little common sense..

I'm more interested in usable information or a good joke then reading something like a school paper...

And it's time for this thread to die off... go dig some cole ( spellin intentunal) or carry some water or "bail so hey"...but for gods sake stop with the BS..

I be dun!


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## SurviveNthrive (May 20, 2010)

HozayBuck said:


> SNT so far you "AIN'T" contributed much of anything but intellectual bullchit to every post you comment on.. I'm not here to read that crap.. I'm here to hear Bunker Bob explain why crap runs downhill from his bunker when he's under ground... now that would be adding something to the conversation..
> 
> I ain't impressed with big words and what some might think is an educated mind...nor by a long "intellectual" dissertation... tell us about how you knapp flint to make an arrowhead.. or a good load for a common rifle round.. or how well you grow your garden..with pictures to back it up..
> 
> ...


As we said in the Marines, we needed the variety...someone has to do sniper checks and check for mines. I'm sure even you will find something to learn eventually. Odd, I didn't go after you, but you definitely had to take a shot.

Semper Fi.

But this isn't about you or me, it's about why folks do things that don't help their situation when they're upset about their region's climate, economic condition, and complain about it but don't want to fix the problem., etc.:gaah: Why do folks think everything I mention is specifically about them? I even mentioned the example of the folks in the award winning film *Harlan County, USA *complaining about their fate, but fighting to keep that lifestyle they condemn as miserable and dangerous as being confusing.

I guess I offended some folks by mentioning I believe it foolish to put up with things they hated, doing dangerous and difficult things that can be avoided, and they complain about and that's seen as intentionally offensive.:ignore:


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