# Question About Solar



## IrritatedWithUS (Jan 9, 2011)

*This question was posted on a different forum and no one answered it. I'm hoping someone can here.*

I heard rumors that if your system is tied to the grid that if the grid goes down, so does your power... no matter what happens with your panels.

I thought it was a technical issue so I talked to a buddy that works for the electric company.  He said that it is a safety issue. That when the power
is out, the utility company needs to know there isn't any power being fed into the grid or their workers will get killed (thinking power is off, but then 
getting zapped when solar panels are feeding back in).

Is this true? If it is, I wonder why people bother with buying grid-tied solar. I wonder if they don't think about this problem.


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## Meerkat (May 31, 2011)

That would be a real bummer now would'nt it?

I don't know but will bump ya up.


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

there _should_ be a *mainline disconnect* that allows for switching from 'grid-tied' to 'independent' which should maintain your power


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## IrritatedWithUS (Jan 9, 2011)

The_Blob said:


> there _should_ be a *mainline disconnect* that allows for switching from 'grid-tied' to 'independent' which should maintain your power


Ah-ha! Thanks!

And I like your new avatar


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## Nadja (Jan 12, 2011)

Having solar panels does not mean you will have power when the grid goes down. If your only doing a grid tie, you won't have power if even your local line goes down. In order to insure that you will have power in the event of a power failure, you would need a batter bank of deep discharge batteries that stay charged up as long as the lines are feeding power to your house. Then, should the power lines fail, your inverter (if you have the right one) will automaticly switch you over to battery back up power. Having lived on solar/wind for over 16 years now, I know a little bit more about this then the average person who has only read about this stuff.


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## mosquitomountainman (Jan 25, 2010)

Any grid tie system has automatic transfer switches that disconnect the solar power system from the grid when power fails. Like the article states, it's for the safety of anyone working on the power lines. Back feed from solar panels can kill as efficiently as the power from the grid.

Your panels will still generate electricity though so whether you have power or not will depend on how your system is set up. If you have batteries and an inverter your system should switch automatically to an "off-grid" mode. You'll still have power at home but in most cases not unlimited power as if you were on the grid. It will depend on the size of your system.

Some of these transfer switches are so fast that your computer will remain on.


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

Nadja said:


> Having solar panels does not mean you will have power when the grid goes down. If your only doing a grid tie, you won't have power if even your local line goes down. In order to insure that you will have power in the event of a power failure, you would need a batter bank of deep discharge batteries that stay charged up as long as the lines are feeding power to your house. Then, should the power lines fail, your inverter (if you have the right one) will automaticly switch you over to battery back up power. Having lived on solar/wind for over 16 years now, I know a little bit more about this then the average person who has only read about this stuff.


I have *NEVER* heard of an install that did NOT have a battery bank, not one... ever

and it's NOT "the inverter" that does the switching, it's the VVVF control box, specifically the backfeed monitor portion

:wave:


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## NaeKid (Oct 17, 2008)

Our local power company is installing wind and solar power systems onto homes in the area right now. Depending on the size of the roof of your house, you could generate enough power to run your house (and back-feed power to the grid turning your meter backwards) during day-light hours, but, the power company will not install battery back-up - that is upto the home-owner to complete if they so desire.

The system from the power company consists of all the permits to install the panels (wind generator), the wiring, the fuses and the power inverter - it also covers all maintenance and repairs to the system as required (hail-damage, etc).


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## IrritatedWithUS (Jan 9, 2011)

I'm thinking about wind power attached to the roof. It's a three story house so the blades will be 40+ feet in the air. And we ALWAYS have wind of at least 8-10MPH at all times. At night, it's a good 12MPH. We're known for CoHo winds all Summer and Fall as well. Our Gorge is FULL of wind turbines. And I've been downtown twice in a week and I've seen 3 wind turbines go down the tiny streets on flatbeds. I wonder where they are going since the gorge is the opposite direction.


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

NaeKid said:


> the power company will not install battery back-up - that is upto the home-owner to complete if they so desire.
> 
> The system from the power company consists of all the permits to install the panels (wind generator), the wiring, the fuses and the power inverter - it also covers all maintenance and repairs to the system as required (hail-damage, etc).


yeah, but it's a clearly labeled (12V/24V) output with a switch, if people are prepping, they probably can figure it out 

electric hookups aren't as hard as many make it sound, just RESPECT the 'juice'...


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## ra5451 (Mar 11, 2011)

The_Blob said:


> I have *NEVER* heard of an install that did NOT have a battery bank, not one... ever


Blob,

I'm in the process of reviewing bids to install a solar farm on my property. There is no battery backup. Essentially, what i'm doing is called net metering. I find an offtaker (large consumer of power) and put a contract in place to sell them electric at a rate less than the electric company. Then, when the solar panels create electricity it is pushed back onto the grid through my meter and I get what are call S-Recs (in addition to free electric). These S-recs are what I sell to the offtakers. BTW, there is hardware in place so if the grid is down then no solar generated power is sent to the grid to protect to pole jumpers. This type of switch is (should be) also used on generators that are hooked up to your house electrical panel. Hope this clarifies things.


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

ok...

what I should've said is that I've never seen anyone STUPID enough to spend that kind of $$$ on a solar install without a battery bank...

WHY would anyone try to directly run ANYTHING off a VVVF/VVVA system?

the only reason would be if they had more $$$ than brains...

an YES it IS stupidity & NOT ignorance at that point in a project where a transaction is made...

... and I have NO tolerance for idiots :gaah:

we are PAST the time of hand-holding and babying the populace about preparedness, if they're NOT on board now, they do NOT have the time to 'catch up'


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## Jimmy24 (Apr 20, 2011)

The_Blob said:


> ok...
> 
> what I should've said is that I've never seen anyone STUPID enough to spend that kind of $$$ on a solar install without a battery bank...
> 
> ...


Hold on Blob, cool your jets....:surrender: ...lets have a :beercheer:

Having been in the distribution side of the utility business for nearly 30 yrs, I can speak to this. We had grid ties to all sorts of power producing systems. These are systems that just do it for the benefit of selling excess power to the utility company and having quote "free power" . Usually based on a commercial customer, but I guess a residential customer could do it too. Just costly.

But not as costly as a stand-alone-system, as you are thinking of. You have to figure that a solar system like that would be significantly less expensive, as no batt bank required, no batt charge regulation required and no inverter required (for your use). Those are the largest cost of a stand-alone system. If a grid tie and panels are all your really buying, it might actually be a pretty good deal.

Translation was lost when no one wrote that they were not building a stand-alone system. That is the terminology we usually understand in these types of forums.

Hope that helps

Jimmy


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## LincTex (Apr 1, 2011)

IrritatedWithUS said:


> I'm thinking about wind power attached to the roof. It's a three story house so the blades will be 40+ feet in the air.


NEVER attach a wind generator to the house... the noise transmitted will drive you nuts. Even if it's just guy wires.


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## Nadja (Jan 12, 2011)

The_Blob said:


> I have *NEVER* heard of an install that did NOT have a battery bank, not one... ever
> 
> and it's NOT "the inverter" that does the switching, it's the VVVF control box, specifically the backfeed monitor portion
> 
> :wave:


A grid tie system may or may not have batteries. Just because you haven't heard of it , doesn't mean it is not so. Friend of mine is putting up a lot of solar and 6 wind generators, and no batteries. It is to cut his elec costs on one of his stores. Before commenting on solar/wind whether it is solar or wind or combo, you should do a lot more research on all of the above.


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## ra5451 (Mar 11, 2011)

WOW! Really? :scratch Blob, I'm kinda new here and never expected to get a BLOB stuck up my ass. You should play nice! Take a deep breath, re-read my post, do some research on the type of solar farm that I spoke of, and then apologize.....



The_Blob said:


> ok...
> 
> what I should've said is that I've never seen anyone STUPID enough to spend that kind of $$$ on a solar install without a battery bank...
> 
> ...


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## Jimmy24 (Apr 20, 2011)

ra5451 said:


> WOW! Really? :scratch Blob, I'm kinda new here and never expected to get a BLOB stuck up my ass. You should play nice! Take a deep breath, re-read my post, do some research on the type of solar farm that I spoke of, and then apologize.....


Don't think it's gonna happen. Too embraced at making a "whatever" of himself.

It happens ra5451...takes more of a man to apologize than to make rash statements....and just ignore the truth...

To the OP, sorry your thread was taken this direction. I thought was gonna be a good imformation thread.

Jimmy


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## Nadja (Jan 12, 2011)

There is a lot of good info on this site and several others just like it. Sometimes people that really don't know or understand something will just jump feet first and see what happens., Kinda like jumping in a hole with bamboo pointie spikes aimed up . Not good.


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## ra5451 (Mar 11, 2011)

This is what a solar farm looks like...Usually a private electric company who deals in solar leases or buys you property and builds one. The term is usually 15 years because that is the guarantee of the panels.


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## Nadja (Jan 12, 2011)

Nice Pic. There is also the solar farm like they are getting ready to build here that uses mirrors. Must be terrible with mirrors for pilot's though!


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## ra5451 (Mar 11, 2011)

Hi Guys,

If you look very, very, very hard you can see the batteries next to each panel. oops:


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## Jimmy24 (Apr 20, 2011)

ra5451 said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> If you look very, very, very hard you can see the batteries next to each panel. oops:


They are gonna be for voltage control. Not storage. No oops required!

Jimmy


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## CulexPipiens (Nov 17, 2010)

If anyone reading this is still new to solar and would like some basics, check out the following 4 articles (part 1 through 4).

Solar Power 101: Batteries by Jeffrey Yago, P.E., CEM Issue #87

Solar Power 101: Batteries part 2 by Jeffrey Yago, P.E., CEM Issue #88

Solar Power 101: Inverters by Jeffrey Yago, P.E., CEM Issue #89

Solar Power 101: Solar arrays by Jeffrey Yago, P.E., CEM Issue #90


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## ra5451 (Mar 11, 2011)

I was poking fun!



Jimmy24 said:


> They are gonna be for voltage control. Not storage. No oops required!
> 
> Jimmy


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## *Andi (Nov 8, 2009)

Farms without critters or crops ... how sad ... (IMO)

I guess solar and wind mill farms will be the new cash crop for a new style of farmer.

Sorry, just what came to mind as I was reading this thread. :ignore:


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## neldarez (Apr 10, 2011)

IrritatedWithUS said:


> I'm thinking about wind power attached to the roof. It's a three story house so the blades will be 40+ feet in the air. And we ALWAYS have wind of at least 8-10MPH at all times. At night, it's a good 12MPH. We're known for CoHo winds all Summer and Fall as well. Our Gorge is FULL of wind turbines. And I've been downtown twice in a week and I've seen 3 wind turbines go down the tiny streets on flatbeds. I wonder where they are going since the gorge is the opposite direction.


my last trip to Goldendale I saw endless turbines!


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## IrritatedWithUS (Jan 9, 2011)

CulexPipiens said:


> If anyone reading this is still new to solar and would like some basics, check out the following 4 articles (part 1 through 4).
> 
> Solar Power 101: Batteries by Jeffrey Yago, P.E., CEM Issue #87
> 
> ...


:congrat: :congrat: :congrat: :congrat: :congrat: :congrat: :congrat: :congrat:

I love it! Still reading the first part. Its inspiring me to do something


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## Jimmy24 (Apr 20, 2011)

ra5451 said:


> I was poking fun!


 oops.....

Jimmy


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## CulexPipiens (Nov 17, 2010)

IrritatedWithUS said:


> :congrat: :congrat: :congrat: :congrat: :congrat: :congrat: :congrat: :congrat:
> 
> I love it! Still reading the first part. Its inspiring me to do something


I'm already working on "something" myself... I'm documenting it as I do so and if it works I'll post a DIY about it.


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## SoundWisdom (Jul 28, 2011)

*I don't understand why someone would grid tie*

The Feds have announced that they're about to separate the grid into pieces and deregulate the 60-cycle requirement we've had for eighty years. http://www.sound-wisdom.com/page7.php

That means that your grid-tie inverter will be out of phase and unable to supply power to the grid.

Coal is not being mined in greater quantities, though China's buying more and more, which pushes the price up, and US utilities, who are losing business as people and businesses downsize, will have even more difficulty providing enough power at all, but can't buy it from your grid tie system.

I strongly recommend you step off the grid entirely. The Sound Wisdom SG-1 is a 5,000 watt turnkey plug and play solar power system which you can expand as far as you like. That means you can add panels and batteries at your own pace, learning power management as you go, and get off the grid as fast as you can. It's also the best price on the market. They're at sound-wisdom.com.

In my professional estimation, as both a Consulting Business Analyst and a professional in alternative energy, grid tie is a scam, pure and simple.


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## bunkerbob (Sep 29, 2009)

SoundWisdom said:


> The Feds have announced that they're about to separate the grid into pieces and deregulate the 60-cycle requirement we've had for eighty years. http://www.sound-wisdom.com/page7.php
> 
> That means that your grid-tie inverter will be out of phase and unable to supply power to the grid.
> 
> ...


Seems to be this... "Spokeswoman Kimberly Mielcarek said the company is still discussing the test and gauging reactions to its proposal, and may delay the experiment a bit." ...and only a discussion at the moment, I can't see this ever going forward.

SoundWisdom if you would please limit your disscussions in the present forum to the subject being discussed. If you have a product or service available please do so in for sale & wanted or vendor sections.

Thanks, BB


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## The_Blob (Dec 24, 2008)

bunkerbob said:


> SoundWisdom if you would please limit your disscussions in the present forum to the subject being discussed. If you have a product or service available please do so in for sale & wanted or vendor sections.
> 
> Thanks, BB


:congrat: :congrat: :congrat: :congrat: :congrat:


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## dahur (Dec 18, 2009)

Well, I guess I am "STUPID" also. I've been grid tied for over a year now. In reality it was one of the smartest moves I've ever made, (for me). 
As to investing in a battery back up system, you have to ask yourself how often does your grid go down? If it's not very often, like around here, then that doesn't make financial sense (for me).


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## Nadja (Jan 12, 2011)

dahur said:


> Well, I guess I am "STUPID" also. I've been grid tied for over a year now. In reality it was one of the smartest moves I've ever made, (for me).
> As to investing in a battery back up system, you have to ask yourself how often does your grid go down? If it's not very often, like around here, then that doesn't make financial sense (for me).


In your case dahur, the batteries would be great for a temporary grid down situation, but just think about this. My solar system is off-grid and has been for 16 years. I don't even know when the nearest town etc has a power outage etc, unless someone calls me complaining about being in the dark. If the grid were to go down permanently, I would still be able to power my entire house almost forever. I never gave it a thought way back when, only that I needed some solar etc to see at night etc. It just grew and grew a little more as needs came about. Batteries are however the weakest link in an off grid system. But , nothing is forever.


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## dahur (Dec 18, 2009)

Nadja said:


> In your case dahur, the batteries would be great for a temporary grid down situation, but just think about this. My solar system is off-grid and has been for 16 years. I don't even know when the nearest town etc has a power outage etc, unless someone calls me complaining about being in the dark. If the grid were to go down permanently, I would still be able to power my entire house almost forever. I never gave it a thought way back when, only that I needed some solar etc to see at night etc. It just grew and grew a little more as needs came about. Batteries are however the weakest link in an off grid system. But , nothing is forever.


Yup, the batteries are it. I'm waiting for a break though in battery technology, such as EESTOR claims they have, but haven't brought to market yet. Some kind of solid state storage, that can be taken down to 0 with no damage, and charged unlimited times. Of course that would just about kill the rest of the industry...so maybe never see it.

Curious:
Do you have an automatic watering system?
Is around 8 years the max you can expect before replacement? 
Have you tried a desulfator?

I put a float charger on my car battery every night, and by keeping it topped off, I can see a slight improvement when I take the monthly hydrometer, and voltage readings. If I leave the charger off, I get a 12.65-12.70 in the morning, and all the cells are in the green. Pretty good I think for a 5 year old car battery.


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