# surgery meds



## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

I was wondering if it is legal to buy and store ether? Drugs that will help deaden pain during surgery are illegal without a prescription and I certainly dont want to break the law. So I was trying to figure out what would be legal to stock and fill that need for after shtf. The thought of having to set a broken leg or something on my 3 yr old nephew without helping spooks the heck out of me. Im assuming if it will work for surgery its probably a no go but cant really picture anyone abusing ether so I figured Id ask.


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## Startingout-Blair (Aug 28, 2012)

I've been wondering about some of this info as well


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

Yeah. There has to be someway to prep for a serious injury post shtf. I keep getting images in my head of civil war hospitals from movies. Ugh!! I am at school doin nursing so hopefully things hold on till I am tight with a hospital crew in my area. At least then I will hopefully have a spot to head with a bad injury if things arent too bad.


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## Startingout-Blair (Aug 28, 2012)

I understand. Seeing how they sawed off legs and such with no pain medicine whatsoever, I think I'd rather be put down.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

I agree wholeheartedly


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

I have wondered the same.

After doing quite a bit of research into "Native Medicinal Plants", found an account that a combination of "Dature" and "Hemp" could allow minor surgery without pain.

Datura is common in this area, Hemp likely is also(whether it is grown or not) but due to legalities haven't persued it further. In a Post SHTF situation the hemp legalities likely would not be an issue and could be experimented with then.

Datura is commonly called "Jimson Weed", "Moon Flower", "Thorn Apple" and the list goes on. It is supposed to be common throughout North America.


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## tsrwivey (Dec 31, 2010)

Kids can be taught to go to their "happy place" to mentally block the pain & endure quite a bit of it.


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## PrepN4Good (Dec 23, 2011)

Davarm said:


> I have wondered the same.
> 
> After doing quite a bit of research into "Native Medicinal Plants", found an account that a combination of "Dature" and "Hemp" could allow minor surgery without pain.


Datura is in the nightshade family, so use with extreme caution.


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## Startingout-Blair (Aug 28, 2012)

I've got some deadly nightshade growing out back here


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

Davarm said:


> I have wondered the same.
> 
> After doing quite a bit of research into "Native Medicinal Plants", found an account that a combination of "Dature" and "Hemp" could allow minor surgery without pain.
> 
> ...


If I remember my Jean M Auel (did I get that right?) Correctly it must be pounded then steeped in very specific proportiins or it can be very dangerous. I am not educated enough on this to do it safely. Guess ill have to do some research and print off directions for the no other choice library. Ether seemed like an easy fix to problem if legal to possess. I know it was once widely used for this purpose.


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## jsriley5 (Sep 22, 2012)

is the ether used as starter fluid anything close to the same thing formerly used in hospitals. If so you can get it at auto parts stores and a paper filter mask would be a way to apply it. I thgink I"d be tempted to use alcohol for the broken legs and stuff. Actual surgery!?!? well I stock some of the stuff as I can get it and hope there will be a profesional around that I can give it to if it's needed. I wouldn't relish performing surgery whiloe looking at pictures in a book. Ugly ugly ugly.

and yeah you gotta watch that jimson weed there were a few deaths around here a few years ago of kids who discovered it was a halucinogen, and poisoned themselves.


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## Davarm (Oct 22, 2011)

CrackbottomLouis said:


> If I remember my Jean M Auel (did I get that right?) Correctly it must be pounded then steeped in very specific proportiins or it can be very dangerous.


Yes, it is very dangerous and should be used with caution(if used at all). It is rumored to be one of the ingredients in the "Voodoo Zombie Powder", I am pretty adventurous when it comes to using native remedies but haven't been able to bring myself to experiment with it.

I have just filed the info in the back of my mind for reference. Jean M Auel cites quite a few of those kinds of "remedies" in her books but I would not use her info as a tutorial, she can get you to thinking though.


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## machinist (Jul 4, 2012)

Starting ether has "denaturants" added to prevent use as a drug/anaesthetic. Can be deadly if inhaled, I read. But, I have read about it being used to knock out crime victims. Not a good choice, IMHO. Whiskey is safer by a long shot.

Jimson Weed/Datura: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datura

It contains atropine, which is given alone before surgery to "dry you up", and some VERY DEADLY hallucinogens. One anecdote from 50+ years ago, is that a child in Indiana was given some seeds in a peanut butter sandwich as a prank by his schoolmates. The boy died, leading Indiana to pass a law requiring the weed to be eradicated on farms, IIRC.

NOT something to fool around with. :nuts:


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## Wellrounded (Sep 25, 2011)

I'd love to have more info on this. Last year went to the dentist and he didn't know how to do a lower jaw nerve block so after he stuck me with more local than he was supposed to (and it having no effect at all) I told him to just drill the damn thing! It hurt, lol. Really don't want to have to go through that much pain again for any reason.


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## stayingthegame (Mar 22, 2011)

ether and chloroform were used during the civil war. ether is flammable and was used mainly in the hospitals. chloroform was used in the field and I had found a web sight that showed you how to make it. it is a difficult process and very dangerous. if I can find the site I'll post it.


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## Arkansas_Ranger (Feb 9, 2009)

Versed, succinylcholine, Etomidate, Rocuronium, propofol, Dilaudid, Romazicon, Narcan, dantrolene sodium, Flagyl, Cipro, Levaquin, Bactrim all immediately come to mind

Happy cutting


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

It would seem if you are qualified to do surgery you could acquire the appropriate meds without to much trouble. Local anesthetics like Xylocaine, Lidocaine even general anesthetics like Morphine and sedatives like Valium are not that hard to acquire for anyone with the necessary skills. If not why would you even consider performing surgery? As you are more likely going to kill your victim as not. While I am competent to set broken bones do some sutures and the like, surgery is way over my head and not something I would willingly try.

That said for post SHTF disasters like an absolutely necessary leg amputation. Necessary being defined as the patient will absolutely positively die as in the case of a gangrene infection without it. Not much that will leave the patient conscious will do much help. To relieve the patient of any significant pain will require modern anesthesia that will put the patient under. Which in effect is a chemically induced coma. IMO alcohol is your best bet. As has been said alcohol is liquid ether. Hope they pass out be quick clean and precise. As an aside chloroform is highly unstable goes bad in weeks and is highly toxic to make. I would not depend on it as an option.


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## CrackbottomLouis (May 20, 2012)

LongRider said:


> It would seem if you are qualified to do surgery you could acquire the appropriate meds without to much trouble. Local anesthetics like Xylocaine, Lidocaine even general anesthetics like Morphine and sedatives like Valium are not that hard to acquire for anyone with the necessary skills. If not why would you even consider performing surgery? As you are more likely going to kill your victim as not. While I am competent to set broken bones do some sutures and the like, surgery is way over my head and not something I would willingly try.
> 
> That said for post SHTF disasters like an absolutely necessary leg amputation. Necessary being defined as the patient will absolutely positively die as in the case of a gangrene infection without it. Not much that will leave the patient conscious will do much help. To relieve the patient of any significant pain will require modern anesthesia that will put the patient under. Which in effect is a chemically induced coma. IMO alcohol is your best bet. As has been said alcohol is liquid ether. Hope they pass out be quick clean and precise. As an aside chloroform is highly unstable goes bad in weeks and is highly toxic to make. I would not depend on it as an option.


I agree completely. I would be scared horribly to have to attempt anything like a surgery. I certainly would never do so unless it was a serious last ditch effort with no other option. Some scenarios I was considering were severe breaks, amputation, or severe appendicitis with no medical help available. Wouldnt want to but if a loved one was dying Id try just about anything as a last ditch effort. I am a nursing student so hopefully after graduation and years of work experience I will have a better idea on how to help. Hopefully a better idea of where to secure post shtf medical help. I do plan on getting into the surgical end of nursing so hopefull I can assist on a couple of these. I dont want to stock serious meds because they are illegal. I would prefer not to have a good amount of morphine in my house pre shtf. Plus nobody would give it to me so it would have to be aquired illegally. Also not acceptable. Thats why I was looking for alternatives for a last ditch life saving emergency.


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## Jim1590 (Jul 11, 2012)

Arkansas_Ranger said:


> Versed, succinylcholine, Etomidate, Rocuronium, propofol, Dilaudid, Romazicon, Narcan, dantrolene sodium, Flagyl, Cipro, Levaquin, Bactrim all immediately come to mind
> 
> Happy cutting


Well thats a decent list, but if you are unsure of what you are doing, not pay attention for a minute, unable to maintain an airway and provide ventilation if needed; with the some of those meds, hte patient dies.

Versed: The drug is used for treatment of acute seizures, moderate to severe insomnia, and for inducing sedation and amnesia before medical procedures. It possesses profoundly potent anxiolytic, amnestic, hypnotic, anticonvulsant, skeletal muscle relaxant, and sedative properties. (wikipedia)

Succinylcholine: used to induce muscle relaxation and short-term paralysis, usually to facilitate tracheal intubation. Suxamethonium is sold under the trade names Anectine, Quelicin, and Scoline. It is used as a paralytic agent for euthanasia/immobilization of horses. It is colloquially referred to as "succs" in hospital settings. (this paralyzes people, but keeps them awake mentally) (wikipedia)

Etomidate: is a short acting intravenous anaesthetic agent used for the induction of general anaesthesia and for sedation for short procedures such as reduction of dislocated joints, tracheal intubation and cardioversion. (makes them forget what is going on, but not paralyze them) (wikipedia)

Rocuronium: is an aminosteroid non-depolarizing neuromuscular blocker or muscle relaxant used in modern anaesthesia, to facilitate endotracheal intubation and to provide skeletal muscle relaxation during surgery or mechanical ventilation. (wikipedia)

Propofol: is a short-acting, intravenously administered hypnotic agent. Its uses include the induction and maintenance of general anesthesia, sedation for mechanically ventilated adults, and procedural sedation. (must be kept chilled, killed Michael Jackson) (wikipedia)

Romazicon: counteracts barbiturates, needs to be stored in a fridge

Narcan: counteracts opiates

I have used some of these myself, am trained on all of them, and cared for patients receiving all of these medications over a 17 year EMS career.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

CrackbottomLouis said:


> Plus nobody would give it to me so it would have to be aquired illegally. Also not acceptable. Thats why I was looking for alternatives for a last ditch life saving emergency.


Which is likely for any of "surgery meds" there really is nothing effective over the counter. Sad truth is that this is a perfect example of skill and knowledge trumps equipment. The trauma of going through extraordinary measures you are not qualified to do may only assure death or make passing on a much more horrific and terrifying ordeal. It may be that the kindest most loving thing to do is just be there and make them as comfortable as possible.


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## Startingout-Blair (Aug 28, 2012)

LongRider said:


> Which is likely for any of "surgery meds" there really is nothing effective over the counter. Sad truth is that this is a perfect example of skill and knowledge trumps equipment. The trauma of going through extraordinary measures you are not qualified to do may only assure death or make passing on a much more horrific and terrifying ordeal. It may be that the kindest most loving thing to do is just be there and make them as comfortable as possible.


It's a hard decision, but I think you may be correct Longrider. I keep thinking about how, in the civil war, they were cutting arms and legs off with no pain meds or antibiotics. I would rather have someone put a round in my head.


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## LongRider (May 8, 2012)

Startingout-Blair said:


> It's a hard decision, but I think you may be correct Longrider. I keep thinking about how, in the civil war, they were cutting arms and legs off with no pain meds or antibiotics. I would rather have someone put a round in my head.


Now see you are going to make me flip flop. If it is something like a leg arm amputation that I know I could do and they would survive I'd go for it screaming and all. There are lots of herbal / homopathic anti biotics that are very effective and I assume we know how to follow sterile procedures. Maybe not as potent as pharmaceutical anti biotics (I dunno) but preferable to assured death. It is more things like injury to internal organs as in penetrating gun shot wounds or deep lacerations puncture wounds into internal organs that I would opt to avoid. Because I am likely to do as much or more harm than good.


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## Arkansas_Ranger (Feb 9, 2009)

JimMadsen said:


> Well thats a decent list, but if you are unsure of what you are doing, not pay attention for a minute, unable to maintain an airway and provide ventilation if needed; with the some of those meds, hte patient dies.
> 
> Versed: The drug is used for treatment of acute seizures, moderate to severe insomnia, and for inducing sedation and amnesia before medical procedures. It possesses profoundly potent anxiolytic, amnestic, hypnotic, anticonvulsant, skeletal muscle relaxant, and sedative properties. (wikipedia)
> 
> ...


The list was a bit tongue in cheek. The layperson would be foolhearty to introduce half of those meds to someone much less bury up in the gut, or elsewhere, and start cutting. I don't advocate the use of any of them. I only provided a list. A person would have a good bit of difficulty procuring many of those drugs - and rightfully so.


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