# Ok what is wrong?



## invision

My buddy and I decided to test range of two Baofeng UV 5RA - we put it on a frequency of 154.500 and then were able to transmit/receive between our devices, we wanted to test distance... He went north on a highway, I went south... 1/2 mile we lost contact... He lives 20 miles from me and we would like to use these in a SHTF situation... What did we do wrong???


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## 101airborne

invision said:


> My buddy and I decided to test range of two Baofeng UV 5RA - we put it on a frequency of 154.500 and then were able to transmit/receive between our devices, we wanted to test distance... He went north on a highway, I went south... 1/2 mile we lost contact... He lives 20 miles from me and we would like to use these in a SHTF situation... What did we do wrong???


Invasion.... could be any number of things wrong. While I'm no expert I'll try to help. First of the radio won't have enough power on it's own to transmit 20 miles without a repeater, maybe 8-10 mile unless you have a clear line of sight.

I have a couple of the same radios so I'll check my books for answers. Some possibilities are, the radio is set on a low power setting either manually ( power switch) or internally. Some radios have to be programmed to operate at optimal performance. Another issue may be an antenna problem, either a loose antenna or even a bad antenna, most of the antennas like on that type of radio have a kind of wire coil inside one of them could be broken, that would cause the type of signal loss you are experiencing. If you know someone else who has a similar radio or frequency compatibale radio try using it to see if one of your radios is working better than the other one. Another issue could be ( although unlikly) that your vehicle(s) are causing interferance sort of like the "engine whine" you used to get from older CB radios that weren't properly grounded. 
Did you try stopping and talking outside the vehicle? The last suggestion I could make is try using an external/ magnet moubt antenna conected to the radio via a jack adapter.

Hope this helps...


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## k0xxx

invision said:


> My buddy and I decided to test range of two Baofeng UV 5RA - we put it on a frequency of 154.500 and then were able to transmit/receive between our devices, we wanted to test distance... He went north on a highway, I went south... 1/2 mile we lost contact... He lives 20 miles from me and we would like to use these in a SHTF situation... What did we do wrong???


First let me say that 20 miles, unless it's mountain top to mountain top, is probably not going to be possibly using hand held radios. I've used quite a few high quality 2 meter hand held radios, and using the supplied antennas, the best that we could muster under great conditions (hand held to hand held) was about 5 miles, and more normally 1 to 1.5.

Now I'm not familiar with these radios at all so, I looked it up real quick. I do have a couple of questions.

My first question would be, are these radios made for the Amateur bands? Most radios give a receiver frequency range and a transmitter frequency range, but I couldn't find that on these. Only a general range of VHF 136-174MHz and UHF 400-480MHz. And, if they are, are they even designed to transmit on a frequency of 154 MHz? It's above the Amateur Radio 2 meter band (144 - 148 MHz) and below the VHF Marine band, so I'm guessing that it's in a Business band range. While a lot of Amateur Radios have wide range receivers, they are not supposed to be able to transmit outside of the Amateur Bands.

Another thing to think about is a "rubber duck" antenna is a negative gain antenna. You actually lose (a lot) signal strength because they are so inefficient. These antennas limit your distance greatly. Put the radios inside a vehicle and it's even worse. If the radio is actually designed to be used on the frequency that you tried, the antenna can not possibly be made to cover such a wide frequency range (nearly 40 MHz) with any hope of working well. On UHF it would be worse, with the 80 Mhz range.

Also, and forgive me if this isn't the case with these radios, most cheap Chinese radios are notorious for overstating their power output. I've seen discussions about some of the radios when they first started appearing on eBay, and some models rated at 4 watts were barely putting out 1.

To increase their range, try more efficient (longer, but less convenient) antennas. One problem though with adding a larger antenna is that it puts a lot of stress on the radio's connector. As *101airborne* said, a decent magnet mounted antenna will greatly improve the range while inside a vehicle. Just remember that no matter type of antenna you get, be sure to get one that is designed for the frequency you plan to use the radios on.

If you want the absolute maximum out of these radios, you will need to use a directional "beam" antenna. You would need adapters for the SMA type connectors on the radio, so that they could be attached to coax. While this would work for fixed use, in the field it would be a royal pain.

The bottom line is that, if you want to cover the 20 miles, you will need to either work through a repeater, or resort to higher power radios and better antennas.


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## Magus

invision said:


> My buddy and I decided to test range of two Baofeng UV 5RA - we put it on a frequency of 154.500 and then were able to transmit/receive between our devices, we wanted to test distance... He went north on a highway, I went south... 1/2 mile we lost contact... He lives 20 miles from me and we would like to use these in a SHTF situation... What did we do wrong???


Avoid being within 500 yards of a cell tower or high voltage line.sounds like something blanked you.


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## cnsper

A lot of people do not realize that at 9 miles, you are over the horizon. Even if you are on the ocean. How do I know this.... Had a tour of a coast guard cutter and one of the things they said was that they could shoot something with their bow gun 9 miles away before they could see it. You would be surprised how well armed these ships are.


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## zombieresponder

First thing, 154.5 MHz appears to fall within the FCC frequency allocations for maritime mobile. Using marine frequencies for land communications is a no no, and can result in fines.

As far as what went wrong: If you didn't have an externally mounted antenna outside the vehicle, look no further. My Yaesu Ft60 was almost entirely deaf until I mounted an external antenna. Even with an external antenna, don't expect more than ten miles or so of *reliable* communication from a HT, depending on the terrain. You may only get half a mile if it's mountainous, or twenty if it's flat and you have a good antenna. Throw the factory rubber duck antenna in a box under a workbench and install an aftermarket antenna from larsen, diamond, etc.. Install NMO antenna mounts on your vehicles and good antennas.


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## invision

Ok... Great advice...


Now how to fix so that we can communicate in SHTF scenario... Knowing I can't construct a antenna array in my neighborhood... My buddy has the original antenna, while I have an upgraded on (forget the brand/model) off the top of my head... 

Also to add, I do have a 3rd antenna that is 6ft tall that I had to find a special connector for to fit my hand held... Positioning it in the garage (up against the wall with the ham on the floor) I was picking up signals from a south atlanta repeater when I set it to scan (and no it wasn't the weather alert stations)... Which is over 30 miles... So how is that possible? 

Suggestions? This is the one area I am very weak on - communications.

Also I typo'd the freq wrong... It was in the 144 range... Not 154 range... My bad there...


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## k0xxx

Invision, reception is a whole other animal, as it can depend a lot on the transmitting stations' power. My 2m repeater is running at 15 watts. In this hill country I can receive it on a hand held at about at anywhere from 5 to 20 miles (sometimes considerably more) depending the particular terrain and propagation conditions. However the distance that I can get into the repeater with the hand held, with a radio mounted antenna, is considerably less. If I run the repeater at the full 375w, then stations up to 75 miles have reported hearing it and I know that further is possible, but a hand held would never get into at those distances it without being connected to a decent yagi and an amplifier.

As for fixing the comms problem, you could always try beam antennas pointed at each other. I doubt anyone would bother complaining in a real SHTF situation. Since you have antenna restrictions, they could be tested at night, and then put away until needed. If you construct a long boom yagi, it could perhaps be positioned in the attic. It may degrade the signals some, but it may be doable. I've worked a fellow in south Alabama, that had his antennas located in the attic, from here in northern Arkansas. It was on SSB using digital signals, but it shows that it attic mounting is certainly doable.

If you try a remote antenna, use the best coax that you can afford. I'd recommend LMR400 or similar as a minimum, but remember to us a more flexible, short and high high quality jumper between the radio and the coax, to reduce stress on the radios' antenna connection. Another possibility with using a fixed base or mobile antenna, is to add a small amplifier. Small (30w +/-) 2m FM only amplifiers can sometimes be found used on eBay QTH.com for very little money. A small amp could be run from a deep cycle battery and solar charged. 

One last thing. Get a copy of the 2m band plan. 144.5 MHz is at the end of the OSCAR (satellite) sub band, and the beginning of the Linear translator (basically a satellite SSB simplex repeater) inputs. Try these frequency ranges for FM simplex, 146.40 -146.58, and 147.42 -147.57.


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## zombieresponder

koxxx is right. You can almost always receive a lot farther than you can transmit. If I put my roll up J-pole on 25' of LMR-240 and hang it from a tree branch 20 or so feet up, I can receive stuff from 40-50 miles away on my HT. At the same time, the 5w output is starting to fade out pretty well at around ten miles. You don't need an antenna array, you just need to be a little sneaky about how and where you mount an antenna. Speaking of which, are you certain that the antenna you have is correct for the 2m band? A half wave vertical is about 3 feet long, and a 5/8th's wave vertical is about 4 feet long. Neither of those is very hard to conceal outside a home. Go over to eham.net and look through the forums there, as there are many people who live in antenna restricted places who have come up with ingenious solutions. http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/board,2.0.html Other ham forums will have similar subforums.

Again, you need to use an externally mounted antenna on the outside of the vehicle. Lots of people use mag mounts, but drilling for an NMO mount is a lot better. The mag mount antenna can also be placed on a cookie sheet for use inside the house. Incoming and outgoing signals will be attenuated somewhat inside a house, and more so inside a vehicle(this applies to antennas used inside). I'm currently using a Larsen glass mount dual band antenna on my jeep, which will be replaced soon with an NMO mount on the roof.

here is a PDF with directions and dimensions to construct a roll up J pole antenna. http://www.tgc-ares.org/DBJ-2%20Roll%20up.pdf If you need a piece of 300 ohm twin lead, I have some extra that I can send you. I'd be surprised if a ham local to you didn't have some he was willing to part with as well. Similar antennas can be purchased if you want to go that route. This antenna is even easier to hide than a typical vertical, but it's also easy to put up and take down. Tie a rock or fishing sinker on one end of 550 cord, toss it over a tree limb and pull it up.

Another option would be a dipole, easily constructed from something as simple as speaker wire, and easily hidden under the eaves of the house or in the attic. It is bi-directional, versus omnidirectional like a vertical, but that can work to your advantage.


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## invision

Ok...

So, can someone give me a set up where I can use the roll-up antenna - and transmit 30-40 miles... It needs to be mobile. 

I don't want to spend $1,000 on it because I am buying more than one... 

Example
Xyz ham unit
Xyz antenna
Xyz to boost transition signal... 

Etc

Once we get to the BOL, the handheld can be used for patrol / security. 

The problem I see is line of site. The guy I am working with primarily is 30-40 miles up GA 400, and I am in Milton Ga. Cumming GA repeater is closest between UN but it is 9-12 miles for me and 15-20 miles for him...


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## invision

Why doesn't anyone sell these dbj-2 j-pole portable antennas? Anyone want to build me 4 and give me a price to do so? Give me a computer, server, router, switch, or firewall and I am a wizard... The electronics talk is still going over my head... Lol...


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## k0xxx

invision said:


> Why doesn't anyone sell these dbj-2 j-pole portable antennas? Anyone want to build me 4 and give me a price to do so? Give me a computer, server, router, switch, or firewall and I am a wizard... The electronics talk is still going over my head... Lol...


I see 2 meter J Pole antennas on eBay starting at about $22, up to about $30. Considering how cheap and easy they are to make, that's a bit crazy. I would still be surprised if you can communicate 30 - 40 miles in the Georgia Hills using one of these and only 4 watts. As *zombieresponder* stated, "I can receive stuff from 40-50 miles away on my HT. At the same time, the 5w output is starting to fade out pretty well at around ten miles." Minus a repeater, I believe to cover that distance, that you are going tol need either a yagi, more height, more power, or a combination.


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## invision

k0xxx said:


> I see 2 meter J Pole antennas on eBay starting at about $22, up to about $30. Considering how cheap and easy they are to make, that's a bit crazy. I would still be surprised if you can communicate 30 - 40 miles in the Georgia Hills using one of these and only 4 watts. As zombieresponder stated, "I can receive stuff from 40-50 miles away on my HT. At the same time, the 5w output is starting to fade out pretty well at around ten miles." Minus a repeater, I believe to cover that distance, that you are going tol need either a yagi, more height, more power, or a combination.


Ok, so my dumb butt gets this right, can you shoot me a link to the 2 meter j pole antenna that are mobile?

What is a yagi and how to increase power - aka can you give me a list of what I would need so I can go shopping?


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## zombieresponder

The roll up J pole is a portable antenna, not a mobile antenna.  It's basically so you can toss it in a backpack with some coax and get a bit more range from a HT if needed. Some folks do use them as a base station antenna though. I'm also in agreement about the price of them, although quality connectors and coax can be expensive.

Here is a larsen mag mount for an NMO antenna. The coax is terminated with an PL-259 connector. http://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-000600 and here is an antenna for it http://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-000565. You'll also need(if you don't already have one) an adapter from the PL-259 to whatever your HT uses for a connector. If you're going to be connecting and disconnecting frequently, I suggest putting a BNC adapter on your radio and connecting/disconnecting from that. They're made for that, while the SMA and others are not. Regular permanent install NMO vehicle mounts are much cheaper. http://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-007660

The Yagi is a directional antenna that concentrates the signal in a single direction. It's covered in several potential questions on the tech license test, so it's something you should at least vaguely remember.  It doesn't increase power at all, but because it concentrates it in a single direction, the effect is similar. It's also unidirectional when it comes to receiving, meaning you won't hear much of anything that it isn't pointed at.










As far as increasing power, you need an amplifier. http://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-001337 That one will produce 35 watts of output for 2 watts of input. If your HT has a 1 watt output setting and not a 2 watt, you will only get 18 watts of output power. It can be driven with up to 8 watts of input power, so if you have a 5 watt setting, it will produce full rated power. That being said, without good antennas and location, extra power may not give you any benefit.

In all honesty, it's a lot easier to start with something like this http://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-010077 and good antennas than it is to start with a HT and try to make up the difference. I heard it recommended in our CERT class for folks to start with a HT and it made me cringe. The fellow teaching the tech license class my wife and mom are taking apparently made the same recommendation, so I had to break the news to my wife that it would be useless if she were at work 60 miles away and needed to get in touch with me using the radio.


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## invision

Ok went shopping...

I got the next model up for the ham radio unit. It has a higher output than the other one (FT-2900R)
Mobile antenna 
Mobile antenna magnet mount (higher end one that will not damage car paint)
AC converter to power in the house
And a dbj-2 antenna, co-ax cable 50 ft and the connectors. 
Software to program the unit
A book that shows state maps of all repeaters on the 2M band...

Times this by 2... Nice way to drop a grand plus change in 2 hours.  

Thanks all... Will test out soon and let you know if we achieved our goals!


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## zombieresponder

Good deal. You shouldn't have any problem making 30-40 mile contacts with a good antenna and 75 watts of output power. Likely wouldn't have had any trouble with the lower 55 watt output of the model I posted, but the extra won't hurt. The downside is higher amperage consumption if you're running from a 12v battery.

For a way to make that unit a little more easily portable, look at building an emcomm box. Here's a website. http://www.freewebs.com/ai4wm/emergencycommunications.htm  There are tons of youtube videos and internet pages with info on this as well.


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## invision

zombieresponder said:


> Good deal. You shouldn't have any problem making 30-40 mile contacts with a good antenna and 75 watts of output power. Likely wouldn't have had any trouble with the lower 55 watt output of the model I posted, but the extra won't hurt. The downside is higher amperage consumption if you're running from a 12v battery.
> 
> For a way to make that unit a little more easily portable, look at building an emcomm box. Here's a website. http://www.freewebs.com/ai4wm/emergencycommunications.htm  There are tons of youtube videos and internet pages with info on this as well.


Yeah my buddy is making 2 of them... He drives a Z car, and with my cars, neither want to mount them in the cars and damage the dash...


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## zombieresponder

This is what I'm drooling over right now. http://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-011925 The head is separate from the main body of the unit, so I can adhesive mount it to the dash.


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